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43d Congress, » SENATE. < Report 307, 
 
 1st Session. J ) Part 2. 
 
 REPORT 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION-ROUTES 
 3 TO THE SEABOARD, 
 
 APPENDIX AND EVIDENCE. 
 
 April 24, 1874. — Ordered to be printed. 
 
 
 WASHINGTON; 
 
 » MA 
 GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE. 
 
 ^1874. 
 
PEOCEEDINGS OF -SENATE COMMITTEE ON TEANSPOETA- 
 TION EOUTES TO THE SEABOAED. 
 
 Fifth Avenue Hotel, 
 New York City, September 11, 1873. 
 
 The Chairman. I believe the committee are ready to proceed, and as 
 the gentlemea present to-day are nearly all the representatives of rail- 
 roads, I wish to say to them that the object of the appointment of this 
 committee was to secure, if possible, cheaper transportation between 
 the sea-board and the interior. 
 
 There are evidently two sides to the question. There is the railroad 
 side and there is the side of those who claim that the railroads are 
 charging too much, and that they are not working in the interests of 
 the people. The committee desire that the gentlemen present having 
 heard this general expression, may state to us their views with refer- 
 ence to the transportation question. I have submitted to a number of 
 gentlemen an outline of the inquiries that we wish to make, and we 
 will either submit questions to the gentlemen called upon or permit 
 them to make such statements, with reference to this general question, 
 as they may deem proper, and we will then follow it by such questions 
 as may be suggested to our minds. 
 
 I am told that Mr. Hayes and Mr. Kneass will make some statements 
 with reference to the freight lines, and I have been requested to ask 
 that they should make those statements first. 
 
 Mr. Hayes, General Manager Blue Line Fast Freight, Detroit, Mich. : 
 Gentlemen op the Committee : The statement that I wish to make 
 more particularly is in regard to through fast freight lines. The mind 
 of the public seems to have been in error with regard to these lines. To 
 give you a full history of their origin, their operations, and matters con- 
 nected with them, it may become necessary to go back a little in the 
 history of transportation, in order to show why they were formed and 
 their continued progress and their present organization, their connection 
 with the producer and the consumer, as well as their connection with 
 the roads. 
 
 You will recollect that the great grain-producing country of the West 
 borders very largely upon the lakes, and the lines of roads running from 
 lake ports into the interior of'the country are very largely engaged in 
 bringing this produce to the lake ports, such as Chicago, Milwaukee, 
 Eacine, Green Bay, and other points, where it meets with the lake craft 
 that bring it to Buffalo. There it is transferred to the canal for New York. 
 The rates of that lake transportation have varied more than the rates of 
 freight on any — the percentage has been greater, the fluctuations 
 greater than on any road or on the canal. Commerce, like water, regu- 
 lates itself and finds its own level. Therefore, when that grain can be 
 taken into a vessel at Chicago, brought to Buffalo for 5 cents a bushel, 
 and from Buffalo to New York for 10 cents a bushel, as it was done 
 through the month of August last, we find that there is 15 cents for fif- 
 teen hundred miles of water navigation, which covers the insurance 
 
2 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 froin Buffalo, as well as the canal-tolls. That, at its lowest, we will say 
 is but one cent per bushel for a hundred miles of lake and canal trans- 
 portation. . 
 
 The lakes furnish ample room for navigation;, do '■monopoly" on 
 them. The Erie Oanal is furnished by the State of New York for any 
 one to use that chooses to build boats and run them. In 1862, the grain 
 received at Buffalo was 58,642,344 bushels. The tolls collected on all 
 the New York State canals was $5,188,943 for that year. The grain re- 
 ceipts and shipments continued to decrease until 1869, when the ship- 
 ments by canal were down to 37,014,728 bushels, and the canal-tolls fell 
 off to $3,778,501. Railroad facilities had multiplied so rapidly and rail- 
 rates became so much reduced by the operation of through-lines of cars 
 that the State found it necessary to reduce the tolls on the canal to keep 
 pace with the general reduction. The grain trade again increased via 
 Buffalo until 1872, when it was 58,447,822 bushels, 194,522 bushels less 
 than it was ten years before, and the total tolls collected was $2,116,531 
 less than in 1862, while the total tons moved was only 6,673,370 tons 
 in 1872. 
 
 The boats on the canal in 1862 registered an average of about 141 
 tons each. They now average about 250 tons each. Therefore, while 
 there has been no enlargement of the Erie Canal, the old smaller-sized 
 boats have passed out of existence to a certain extent, and they have 
 been replaced by a class of boats nearly double their size, so that, while 
 the capacity of the canal itself has not been very much altered, the 
 capacity of the boats has so changed that the tonnage of the canal has 
 grown from some 4,500,000 tons a year up to a capacity of 11,000,000 
 tons a year. That part of the business, of course, continues oDly 
 through the season of navigation and only reaches New York and the 
 towns tributary to the canal and Hudson Eiver. 
 
 The development of the business of the country is such that the prod- 
 uce has to reach the interior of New England and to be brought to 
 lake towns and kept there in store in large quantities through the win- 
 ter at high and continuous costs to the producer or the man who has -to 
 hold it. 
 
 It therefore became necessary that the producer and the consumer 
 should be brought closer together during the winter-months as well as 
 the summer-months. In order to do that and to furnish business for the 
 railways, it became necessary that through-lines should be established for 
 the purpose of taking this property from the nearest railway station, 
 where it is produced to the party who consumes it in the East. There- 
 fore that business, in order to compete with the low prices of water 
 navigation, had to be done without the cost of handling at the end of 
 each company's road. If the one company hauled it a hundred miles, 
 it was at the expense of unloading and putting it in the next comnanv's 
 car and hauling it two or three hundred miles more, and re-handling 
 until it reached its destination for one or two thousand miles • the 
 handling alone to and from the different companies' cars would be more 
 than the water-navigation charges. 
 
 Therefore these companies arranged among themselves, bv which oich 
 road would put in a certain quota of cars, and form a through ijTp hv 
 which the business could be done through one management Thn«n 
 cars belong to the roads, and they are placed in the hands of a m^Z 
 fo manage the business for the joint interest of all the roads Th > • 
 are not owned by outside parties ; they are not operated by outside nYr S 
 ties, but are the joint cooperation of all lines together through one r 
 agement. When a line-bill is made at Saint Louis for Boston the 
 
 par- 
 rn an- 
 
 en- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 3 
 
 tire charges are shown ; a tissue copy of that bill comes to my office. We 
 there make up the earnings of the lines; we settle all over-charges, losses, 
 and damages, or anything connected with the lines, and prorate it over 
 all the lines, and there is no man outside of the railroad companies them- 
 selves who receives one farthing of profits growing out of the business. 
 It simply facilitates the handling of the property from the place of pro- 
 duction to the place of consumption. 
 
 In the month of November last, I think the " Blue Line" cars run on 
 124 different roads for that one month. A car loaded here for San Fran- 
 cisco passes through without transfer or handling, and the mileage for 
 that car is reported to me clear through to the Pacific coast. The com- 
 pany owning that car gets credit for the mileage for its own line through 
 my accounts, and the mileage balances are settled with the railroads 
 each month upon the clearing-house system. 
 
 Whatever balances there are over and above what they ought to have 
 made as their pro rata share of the total miles, is paid them in money 
 from my office once a month. Therefore these lines have become such 
 a necessity to the country that it would be utterly impossible for it to 
 abandon them. The farmer of the West, if he lives at a railway sta- 
 tion, can order his car, and put his four hundred bushels of corn into 
 it, and send it to any man he likes in New England, at the current rate 
 of freight, which has been gradually reduced from time to time, until at 
 the present time, or through the summer months, when it gets down to 
 about 20 to 22 cents a bushel. Instead of the property going in vessels 
 by large quantities, where he has to provide a capital for this large quan- 
 tity, and provide storage for it at its destination, taking the chances 
 of the rise and fall in the market, and the insurance, he simply sends 
 four hundred bushels at a time from the place of production to the place 
 of consumption, and the next day, or the same day, he can draw against 
 that four hundred bushels, to buy another car-load, so that his daily 
 wants are constantly supplied through the means of these through-lines. 
 Therefore the nature of the business, so far as New York is concerned, 
 has become somewhat changed. 
 
 While there is the same amount of property, or more property, moved, 
 it is not moved through the same channels, and is lost sight of, because 
 it is done in a smaller way, and passes into the hands of the consumers 
 without being reported through the ordinary channels of reporting such 
 receipts and disbursements. The effect of that system of doing the bus- 
 iness has been such that the railroad capacity has been taxed at certain 
 times very largely, and some considerable fault has been found with the 
 management of railroads, in consequence of facilities not being fur- 
 nished to do the business. The great trouble will be found to be at the des- 
 tination. When you arrive at New York with large quantities of grain, and 
 the consignee here expects to receive the identical grain that is in that 
 car, he must as a matter of necessity provide a barge for its being taken 
 out. Suppose we have fifty cars of No. 2 Chicago spring wheat coming 
 in here to fifty different consignees, on the same day, and they expect 
 the same wheat, you will have to have fifty barges to discharge it, while 
 if that could be done by inspection, as it is done in Chicago and every 
 other large lake port, those fifty cars of grain could be discharged with 
 the proper facilities, such as we have in Detroit, in fifteen minutes. They 
 can discharge six cars in one elevator at Detroit, sweep the cars and 
 move them out, in four minutes. There are six places to drop the grain 
 into, and it is done by steam shovels. That would give you the use of 
 the cars immediately to return, and give you the use of the tracks to 
 
4 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 move more' on ; the difficulty is not in the moving of the cars over the 
 lines, but it is in receiving the property when it reaches its destination. 
 The inspection of the grain at New York, by which this property can 
 be discharged rapidly, would obviate a very large proportion of the 
 trouble that we now labor under. The charges upon the property after 
 it arrives here to go from the cars to the barge, from the barge to the 
 elevator, from the elevator back to the barge, from the barge to the 
 ship, is more than one quarter of the present charge from Chicago here. 
 That is an item, that has a very large share of expense attached to it, 
 which should be avoided. That is, of the present rate upon the same 
 property by lake and canal from Chicago to this port. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. How many cents a bushel ? 
 
 Answer. It would be about 4 cents a bushel, the weighing and alto- 
 gether. Large warehouses at convenient points for railway cars to dis- 
 charge at a cheap rate of storage, elevating and storage, so that a man 
 could afford to hold his property at New York or Boston or the sea-board 
 towns, rather than the western towns, would equalize the business to a 
 very great extent and hold the property here instead of the West. 
 The parties holding the grain at the West, where it is in store at 
 a cheap rate of storage, particularly that which is destined to the 
 sea-board, hold it for a favorable turn of the market. When the price 
 goes up one or two cents per bushel, everybody wants to ship the same 
 day. Now it is utterly out of our power to carryall the property in 
 one day or two days, but if they will spread that over the time, the ca- 
 pacity to move that property on a daily average of movement has never 
 yet been exhausted. 
 
 The tonnage of the canal alone, with double locks of suitable size, is 
 equal to 11,000,000 of tons a year eastward bound in the two hundred 
 days of navigation. Their entire tonnage for 1872 on all the canals of 
 New York State, both ways, was only 6,672,000 tons. The capacity of 
 the railroads to move to the sea-board, to all the different points, is es- 
 timated at about 30,000 tons per day. 
 
 The capacity of the water-routes, by canal, the Saint Lawrence, the 
 Mississippi, and the other water-communications to the sea-board, is 
 equal to about 75,000 tons per day, so that if the business was equalized, 
 it makes a capacity to move, if it was equally distributed over the time, 
 equal to 105,000 tons per day. Take that for a year and you have a 
 tonnage equal to seven and a half tons for every man, woman, and 
 child of the whole United States west of Buffalo. 
 
 There are about 67,000 miles in the whole United States. The mile- 
 age of these railroads now exceeds the mileage of the railroads of all 
 Europe combined. The tonnage of all the railroads amounts to about 
 225,000,000 of tons per year. But to speak of this particular locality the 
 grain region, which we are now discussing, to transport property from 
 the west to the sea-board. There is now in operation in Ohio "Michi- 
 ■ gan, and western States and Territories north of the Ohio River and 
 . east of the Rocky Mountains, Missouri, Kansas, and Colorado and 
 north of them, 28,778 miles of railroads owned and controlled bv about 
 two hundred different sets of men as stockholders, represented through 
 their boards of directors, many of them coming into direct competition 
 with each other for a comparative limited traffic. These roads with 
 their equipments, have cost an average of $50,550 per mile The total 
 earnings, less actual working expenses, give an average 'of 2.83 per 
 cent, on all the capital. But as nearly one-half of the entire cost is 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 5 
 
 represented by bonds bearing from 7 to 10 per cent, interest, it will be 
 seen that some roads do not, .because they cannot, pay even the interest 
 upon their bonds, much less dividends, to their stockholders, while at 
 the same time they open up the vast resources of the country and bring 
 the farmer into immediate connection with the consumer through avail- 
 able markets at a comparative trifling cost, which has more than 
 trebled the value of his productions, as well as his real and personal 
 estate. 
 
 As to railway-communication from Buffalo east, you are aware the 
 New York Central Road are putting four tracks, the Midland Eoad will 
 be completed, and while these lines are doing this business in that way, 
 if the property could be so offered here that it could be moved equally 
 over the road, our capacity, as I said before, is very far from being ex- 
 hausted. That seems to be the vital point now, to provide a storage 
 capacity at the Bast, so that this property can be moved here. Unless 
 that is done, of course there is no necessity for any further roads being 
 built, because the same thing would operate upon all roads. Supply 
 and demand regulates the movement of the property. Therefore, if 
 the price was down here and the storage was less there than here, it 
 would remain there until the price here warranted its movement. As 
 soon as that is done, you would have the same difficulty again. It 
 would all want to move in one or two days. We go very far toward 
 supplying that immediate demand, and the consequence is that we get 
 so much property in here that all of a sudden the price goes down; 
 they do not realize what they expected to and shipments fall off, so that 
 our cars again stand idle, waiting for another spasmodic effort in the 
 price to bring it forward. 
 
 Those are the difficulties that we labor under, and not the want of 
 facilities to move it. 
 
 One of the schemes that will probably be brought before you is the 
 Niagara Ship Canal, from Lake Erie into Lake Ontario. That question, 
 you will see at once, should not receive any favorable attention. The 
 moment that you get into Lake Ontario you have opened the traffic to 
 Montreal, one of the very points that we wish to steer clear of. If the 
 St. Lawrence is a natural outlet, and by the building of this canal into 
 Lake Ontario, the business can be thrown into Montreal, we throw 
 it out of our hands entirely to do the business, and out of our own com- 
 mercial centers for doing it. But the disadvantages of that route are 
 so great that it will never amount to anything, even though it was car- 
 ried through. The dangers of navigation of the St. Lawrence, of course, 
 are familiar to navigators ; and it is only about seven months of the year 
 that that route is open at all. 
 
 When you get out to the ocean for Liverpool, you only meet the mar- 
 kets of Liverpool after you have got there. Therefore your grain in 
 Liverpool, in very large quantities, is in an unsalable market, and 
 when that market is supplied, there is an end of that business. We 
 take it that New York is the commercial center of this country, and 
 the ships of all nations come to New York with goods. With them 
 they bring the orders for grain to all parts of the world, as return 
 freight. Therefore, facilities for bringing this property to New York or 
 Boston or Philadelphia or Baltimore is a more legitimate thing than 
 opening a route by ship canal that would afford people entirely outside 
 of our country the advantage of doing our business for us. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 Q. Would not the dangers of navigation on the Saint Lawrence speak 
 
6 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 in favor of the Oswego Canal route, as a part of the Niagara Falls ship- 
 canal scheme ? 
 
 A. When you pass from Lake Erie into Lake Ontario and to Oswego, 
 how do you propose to get to New York from there until yon go back 
 into the Erie Canal again at Syracuse, through lifting-locks up to the 
 level of the Erie Canal at Syracuse ? The difference in the freight, and 
 the cost of passing through the Niagara ship-canal to Oswego and up 
 to Syracuse again, is considerably more than the difference in freight 
 from Buffalo to Syracuse ; therefore, you have only gone a roundabout 
 way to reach the same point. 
 
 By Mr. SHERMAN : 
 
 Q. What is the lockage from Oswego up to Syracuse f 
 
 A. I do not know the number of locks, but there must be quite a 
 number, because there is a large descent of the water to the lake. You 
 have got back to the same channel. 
 
 Mr. Poster (bystander) states that it is about 180 feet. 
 
 Mr. Hayes. Therefore your water communication, whether by canal 
 or river, to all northern points must be closed the greater part of the 
 winter, and there is no want of facilities until navigation is closed. 
 ' When it is closed, then the railways are taxed to bring the property for- 
 ward from the West, and it is to meet that demand that the increased 
 railways, if any, are needed. During the summer-months there is now 
 no lack of facilities, because the gradual increase of the tonnage of 
 these boats has imperceptibly grown without any increase of the canal 
 facilities — that is, the size of the canal. But when the lake, and river, 
 and canal navigation becomes closed, then we find the increased facili- 
 ties needed by railways. 
 
 And right here I would say that the complaint made is, that as soon 
 as navigation closes, railways come in and charge larger rates. Well, 
 that is like everything else; the supply and demand regulate that to a 
 certain extent. Then, every' one familiar with the operations of rail- 
 ways must know that it costs a great deal more to run a railway in 
 winter than in summer. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Eight at that point stop to tell us why, if you please. 
 
 A. Because there is a great deal more night-work, and also because 
 of the frost in the roadbed. Snow and ice we have to contend against 
 delays trains. You cannot haul trains during the winter-months any- 
 thing like as large through storms as you can through the summer- 
 months. It makes no difference at all whether you have a train of ten 
 or thirty cars; you have to have engineers, firemen, brakesmen, and con- 
 ductors, whether the train is large or small. Therefore, if you only 
 haul small trains in the winter, you increase your expenses very largely 
 without a corresponding increase of prices to meet it. 
 
 Q. I had no doubt that there was an increase of expenses but I 
 wanted you to state in what it consisted. ' 
 
 A. You have to have additional track-men to clear the ice from the 
 track, from the wheels, and everything of that sort. The increased ex 
 pense of operating that road is considered more in the winter firm the 
 increase in rates. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. What per cent, is your estimate, sir 'I 
 
 A. I should think it would cost nearly a quarter more in winter than 
 in summer. Uclu 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. I 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Then your profits in winter are less than in summer ? 
 
 A. The net profit, if it was separated between the summer and winter 
 operations of the road, I think would be less in winter than in the sum- 
 mer, notwithstanding the increased prices. And it is this increase that 
 is complained of, and they put it upon the ground that it is because 
 water communications are closed. 
 
 I think that covers nearly all that I now have in mind with regard to 
 the operations of these through-lines. They were established for the 
 purpose of meeting this very demand and necessity of the changed 
 manner of doing business, so that the producer could get a car to his 
 own door and ship it to his own friend anywhere he liked at the current 
 rate, without the intervention of middle-men at all. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Are not some of these freight companies organized by an associa- 
 tion of capitalists or individuals distinct from the railroad companies "? 
 
 A. Nothing of the sort, sir. 
 
 Q. You correct an impression that I had formed myself, that some of 
 the freight lines were incorporated companies of associated capitalists. 
 
 A. No, sir ; my office is the office of the joint railroad companies com- 
 bined. My salary and the salary of my staff is all paid monthly ; and 
 all vouchers for overcharges, losses, damages, locks, seals, way-bills, 
 stationery, and all that sort of thing, for the purpose of doing this busi- 
 ness, is all done in my office. 
 
 Q. It is furnished by each company ? 
 
 A. Furnished by me at my office. I furnish it myself for the lines. 
 Once a month we have a meeting of the general freight agents of these 
 lines, and that expense is prorated in proportion to the earnings of the 
 roads in these cars and is paid to me monthly. 
 
 Q. By the companies ? 
 
 A. By the companies. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Of what freight companies do you speak 1 
 
 A. I speak now for the "Blue Line." The "Blue," "Bed" and 
 " White" lines, " Milwaukee Line," and all that I am aware of that pass 
 over the New York Central Boad, are upon the same basis. 
 
 By Mr. CONKLING : 
 
 Q. May I inquire what is your office which you have described % 
 
 A. My office is general manager of the Blue Line for joint account of 
 all the railroads combined. 
 
 Q. Located in New York \ 
 
 A. Located in Detroit. I would state that the New York Central Bail- 
 road, so far as they are concerned, or the Boston and Albany Boad, have 
 do voice whatever in the making of rates eastward-bound. The rates 
 are made by the general freight agents of western roads centering in 
 Chicago. They get together and find what the water communications 
 are doing — their rates, &c, and base their rates upon that as a compet- 
 ing rate. They don't even consult the Boston and Albany Boad, the 
 New York Central, or any road east, at all. They establish their tariff, 
 and under that tariff the roads are obliged to take their pro rata of it, if 
 it is not but 10 cents a hundred. 
 
 Q. And this convention of freight managers gauge their freight tariff 
 by the water-rates and not by the cost of doing the business 1 
 
8 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. They have to gauge their rates by the rates of competing lines, for 
 the simple reason that the rate carries the property. Therefore, it water- 
 rates are so much below railroad-rates, we cannot expect to carry it. 
 Therefore, they have, to a certain extent, to make up their tantt as 
 against competing lines, whether it is water or rail. For instance, if 
 there is a short line of rail into Baltimore, and they are taking property 
 for a cent a ton a mile, and we cannot haul it, taking less than that, and 
 their shorter distance gives them the preference, we have to make our 
 tariff to correspond with those competing lines, and whatever that tar- 
 iff is, the New York Central and Boston and Albany Road have no 
 voice in it at all. They take their pro rata of that rate, and are satis- 
 fled, or must draw out. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. Where does the power come from ; who gives it to the agent there 
 to regulate it "I 
 
 A. That is done by a joint arrangement with the roads Bast and 
 West. The roads from the East make the rates on the property moving 
 to the West, and the roads from the West make the rates on the prop- 
 erty moving to the East. 
 
 Q. How is it divided between the main lines coming East; how is it 
 prorated 1 
 
 A. The same rate per ton per mile. 
 
 Q. That is not my meaning. Suppose you have a thousand tons to 
 come, who regulates what road shall take it — what route it shall take ? 
 
 A. The shipper himself, or consignee. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. What roads does the "Blue Line " traverse ? 
 
 A. The Eastern Road from Portland to Boston, Boston and Albany 
 Eoad, Providence and Worcester, Worcester and Nashua, Housatonic, 
 Hudson River, and New York Central. The Great Western of Canada, 
 Michigan, Central, Jackson, Lansing' and Saginaw, Detroit, Lansing and 
 Lake Michigan ; Port Wayne, Jackson and Lansing, and the Eel River 
 Road ; Chicago, Burlington, and Quincy ; Blinois Central, Chicago and 
 Alton, Chicago and Northwestern and the West Winconsin which come 
 into Saint Paul. But the cars are not restricted to these roads. The 
 cars go anywhere where they are asked for ; and as I said before. I 
 think in the month of November last the cars ran on 124 different roads, 
 going into nearly all the New England towns and the towns of the 
 West, and from the East through to the Pacific Coast. 
 . Q. All the roads you have named are proprietors of the Blue Line ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and have cars in the line. 
 
 Q. As you understand it, is there a difference among these various 
 roads in the actual cost of moving freight ? 
 
 A. There are sometimes differences in the cost of moving property. 
 Where one road would have heavy grades and another road would have 
 no grades, of course the road having the heavy grade would cost them 
 more to move that per ton per mile than the other. That is their mis- 
 fortune. They get no more for bawling it than the other. 
 
 Q. So that in this arrangement you prorate upon milea'o'e alone ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the same rate per ton per mile each road. * 
 
 Q. Taking the actual illustration given by this list of' roads what is 
 the difference in actual cost of moving freight between the road which 
 can do it cheapest and the road whose grade and alignment makes it 
 dearest? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 9 
 
 A. To go into that it would be necessary to know the value of the 
 land, and the grades, and that sort of thing, which is on each road. 
 
 Q. Why the value of the land ¥ 
 
 A. If you go through a city where you pay $300 a foot for land, of 
 course you have a greater outlay than through a country place, where 
 the people are willing to give the land. 
 
 Q. My inquiry is merely as to the actual running expenses, as to the 
 actual expenditure necessary for the operations of moving freight along 
 the road ¥ 
 
 A. There should not be any difference at all, where there is no differ- 
 ence in grades, or cost of fuel, or the costs of operators. 
 
 Q. Therefore it is that I repeat my question. Taking this list of roads 
 as you know them, what, in your belief, is the difference in actual cost 
 of moving freight between a road, and I wish you would name it, which 
 has the hardest grade and alignment, and that road whose situation is 
 such that it can move cheapest. What is that difference, and which are 
 the two roads, illustrating the difference ? 
 
 A. I don't know that I could give you that. I think the Boston and 
 Albany road cost more money per ton per mile than any other. 
 
 Q. That is, from grade ¥ 
 
 A. From grade ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much more does the Boston and Albany Railroad than the 
 New York Central ¥ 
 
 A. That I don't know, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you no opinion about it ¥ 
 
 A. I should think not less than 10 per cent, aud may be more. Of 
 course, they have to haul a much less number of cars, owing to up- 
 grade, than they would if it was level, and each train requires about 
 the same amount of men and an engine. Therefore, the greater their 
 grades, of course, the more their expenses. 
 
 Q. But they sink this difference in the general benefits they derive 
 from this co-operative sending of cars by the Blue Line ¥ 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it is their misfortune to have the heavy grades. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. You are a very intelligent gentleman about this matter, and I wish 
 to get at the elements of the cost of transportation. Take the distance 
 between Chicago and New York and take the lines which you are fa- 
 miliar with, the New York Central and Lake Shore Line, and the Pene- 
 sylvania Central and Pittsburgh and Fort Wayne Lines. Take these 
 two, a distance of about a thousand miles, excluding now the capital in- 
 vested in the roads, the interest, &c, and taking the actual cost of mov- 
 ing by the ton or bushel, whichever is most convenient to you ; tell the 
 committee what is the actual net cost upon those two lines of railroad, 
 as constructed. 
 
 A. That is, taking the business as it now is? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir ; as it is this year. It is developing and increasing, as a 
 matter of course. What would be the lowest rate per tOu per mile ¥ 
 
 A. In order to get at that, the committee would have to take into 
 consideration the cost of hauling a very large number of empty cars 
 back again to get another load. 
 
 Q. Take that into view, because that is a part of the cost. 
 
 A. It is ; but if the tonnage could be so equalized as that a return 
 freight could be had, so that instead of moving a large proportion of 
 these cars one way loaded aud back empty for another load, really haul- 
 ing two miles for one earning, that would reduce the cost very much. 
 
10 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Q. I want the actual cost per ton per mile, taking the average of the- 
 year. 
 
 A. Do you mean outside of a fair outlay for the road ? 
 
 Q. Leave out all interest on bonds and dividends to stockholders,, 
 and give the actual net cost of transporting a ton of merchandise from 
 New York to Chicago by either route, whichever you are the most fa- 
 miliar with. Give first the actual cost, including the pay ot the fuel 
 and all the necessary expenses of moving the trains 1 
 
 A. I went into that one time on the Michigan Central Koad, when I 
 was the assistant superintendent there, and I think it was about three- 
 fourths of a cent a ton a mile. 
 By Mr. ConeXING : 
 
 Q. Did that include the maintenance of the road ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. I mean in track-repairs, &c? 
 
 A. No, sir; lam going to make a little explanation of that. And 
 that was another reason why these through lines were a matter of neces- 
 sity. At that time we had to handle the property at the terminus of 
 each line, find storage-room, take the property out and deliver to the 
 next company. They had to do the same thing ; it had to be checked 
 over three or four sets of roads ; and all that our present system of 
 through-cars has wiped out. 
 
 I think if you can go still further, and unite the interests of the rail- 
 roads more closely, even without consolidation, under the form of a 
 clearing-house plan, by which the whole of this clerical labor at this 
 point would be done away with, and each road receive a clearing-house 
 certificate for its proportion of the line-earnings, so that there would 
 be no handling, and no clerical labor at these terminal points, and the 
 trains run uniformly, I think that could be reduced, probably, to five- 
 eighths of a cent a ton a mile. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Now, let us go on one step further and give us the other elements. 
 What amount per ton per mile would, in your judgment, pay the inter- 
 ests of the cost of railroads built along the lines of either of these two 
 routes which I have mentioned. In other words, what would pay for 
 the capital employed in building a line of railroad similar to either of 
 these two great lines. As a matter o£ course that includes the main- 
 tenance of the road ? 
 
 A. There is such a great variety of cost to the road that you would 
 have to equalize the whole thing. For instance, ten miles from here 
 out would cost as much as one hundred and fifty miles beyond Albany. 
 
 Q. But what would it cost to build either of these line's of railroad i 
 about a thousand miles long 1 
 
 A. Put into single tracks ? 
 
 Q. Such a road as there is now. What would duplicate either the 
 New York Central or the Pennsylvania Central lines. As near as you 
 can get at it ? 
 
 A. That, of course, would have to cover its equipment ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. 
 
 A. The magnitude of the business, of course, increases the cost of 
 equipment very much. 
 
 Q. Take the present business of either road and state what, in your 
 judgment, per ton, per mile would compensate for the capital employed 
 I want to get at the actual cost of freight ? 
 
 A. The right way to get at that would be, of course, to find the cost 
 
TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOARD. 11 
 
 of the road and put that over the number of tpns moved a year. The 
 Sew York Central can move 4,300,000 tons a year with its two tracks, 
 and can move 6,000,000 tons a year with its four tracks. The cost of 
 those four tracks and its equipment for freight, would have to 
 be taken into account at its actual cost, together with the actual 
 cost of the equipments necessary to move 6,000,000 tons a year ; and 
 you put a fair interest after paying cost of maintaining that, over the 
 6,000,000 of tons, and it would give net cost. For instance, suppose a 
 single track : the track alone costs $25,000 a mile, and its equipments 
 and station-buildings and that sort of thing $25,000 more ; there would 
 be your four tracks and equipment, $200,000 a mile, and put that over 
 the four hundred and fifty miles from here to Buffalo, and distribute 
 that over 6,000,000 of tons of freight, you would have it at once. 
 
 Q. Take your own mode of computation and state what would be a 
 fair return for the capital employed. 
 
 A. In Our figuring of the thing, we think when we get below a cent 
 a ton per mile on the average for the year, we have got then so that the 
 business is not worth carrying. 
 
 Q. Then you say a cent a ton a mile is the minimum at which rail- 
 roads, according to their present development, can carry heavy freight 
 from Chicago to New York ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. Of course these things differ as you strike the different 
 tonnage and cost of the roads ; but taking the general average, when 
 you get below a cent a ton, we think we have got where the business is 
 not worth having. " 
 
 Q. What is the co'st of running the New York Central ? How much 
 percentage is expended in running expenses; how much percentage is 
 their gross receipts '? 
 
 A. I think their running expenses would be about 05 per cent. 
 
 Q. About two-thirds ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 
 Q. Are you not carrying wheat now for less than a cent a ton a mile? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you carrying it at a loss 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; when business is light. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say that the rates fixed on all these roads, 45 cents 
 a hundred between Chicago and New York, is an actual loss to the 
 companies f 
 
 A. It perhaps becomes necessary to make some little explanation. I 
 have been asked that question once before. In the movement of prop- 
 erty over lines of roads, it has to be in the charge of competent men. 
 Take, for instance, from the 1st of May until middle of August, at the 
 opening of navigation ; the force of men to operate a road with the in- 
 creased business, when the canal and lake navigation is closed, is double, 
 probably, what it would be during the summer-months. Therefore 
 these men, being mostly poor men, must have employment during the 
 dull time. No road can afford to let these tried men go from them to 
 find business for the dull season. Therefore, if they can keep those 
 men employed through the summer, and actually lose money upon the 
 business that they are doing, instead of undertaking to put new men 
 that know nothing of the road, or its running regulations, or anything 
 of that kind, on during the busy season, they had belter earn enough to 
 pay part of their expenses, and keep those men for the balance of the 
 time, when the roads earn more by their increased business, than to let 
 
12 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 them go. If they do a business that actually is a loss to them for that 
 season, it is not so great a loss as it would be to take on new men, wno 
 would be likely to smash up trains and engines, and that sort 01 thing, 
 during the busy season. Therefore it is profitable, as you may say, to 
 retain those men, making a loss on the business, rather than to nave 
 them go somewhere else, and take up new men to do your increased 
 business. , , ,, 
 
 Q. Does not the present tariff of 45 cents a hundred more than pay 
 the expenses of running, and the expenses of the men employed that 
 you speak of? , . , _, . , 
 
 A. It might pay a very little more ; not a great deal. The interest 
 on the road goes era just the same in dull times as any other. The pres- 
 ent tariff is 50 cents. It was raised day before yesterday. 
 
 Q. It was during the summer, 45 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. About $10 a ton now, then 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; at the present time. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. I would like to ask you one more question. You have given us 
 your idea of the cost of transporting freight on the present great lines 
 of road. You know all about the various plans of building new rail- 
 roads — steel rails, double tracks, low grades, &c. 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I know they are talked about. 
 
 Q. According to your idea of what a railroad could be built at, at 
 what rate could any railroad between Chicago and New York transport 
 heavy freight from Chicago to New York ? 
 
 A. When you go into steel rails, of course, you increase the expend- 
 iture. 
 
 Q. I want to get your estimate of the limit to which, with our present 
 lights, the cost of railroad transportation can be reduced f 
 
 A. Saying nothing about the interest of the cost t 
 
 Q. I want the interest of the cost included in that estimate. 
 
 A. That depends very much upon the amount of business. 
 
 Q. But you know the business ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. For instance, the interest on your road costs as much 
 if you don't run but one train a day over it, as if you ran a train every 
 quarter of an hour. 
 
 Q. But take the two great cities as an illustration ? 
 
 A. By running a train every half hour on a grade where you could 
 run, say thirty to thirty-five cars, you might possibly reduce that to 
 f cents a ton a mile ; that is, by taking that amount of business. The 
 increased business diminishes the cost per ton upon your expenditure 
 for road- way very rapidly. As I said before, if you have but one train 
 per day over that road, which could take a train every half hour, your 
 interest upon the iron on the road is precisely the same as if you did go 
 every half hour, although the iron would wear out a little sooner. But 
 the increased receipts of a road that could move a train every half hour 
 would be very much more than the increased expenditure on a road 
 that only ran one or two trains a day. ■ 
 
 Q. Suppose the New York Central runs about a train an hour ? 
 
 A. If they could unload here, they could run one every half hour. I 
 think they do run more than a train every hour. 
 
 By Mr. CONKLING : 
 
 Q. What is the rate of speed for freight trains over these various 
 railways traversed by the Blue Line "? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 13 
 
 A. Trains through from hero to Chicago, if they make their proper 
 connections, go through in eighty-four hours, allowing ample time for 
 inspection of cars and the transfers, and taking the car numbers at the 
 different terminal points. 
 
 Q. That is, what distance an hour, actual running-time 1 How many 
 miles an hour of actual running-time, deducting stops 1 
 
 A. That would be about eight miles an hour of average timej a little 
 over that. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 Q. Including stops? 
 A. Including stops. 
 
 By Mr. ConklinG : 
 
 Q. I say actual running-time, deducting stops ? 
 
 A. That would be probably about twelve miles an hour. 
 
 Q. Assuming that the road was clear to freight and unoccupied by 
 passenger trains, is twelve miles an hour a profitable rate at which to 
 run freight trains ? 
 
 A.. I think so. 
 
 Q. Tou do not think it would be desirable as a matter of economy to 
 run them faster than that, if you occupied the whole road with freight ? 
 
 A. No, sir. Actual time, including stops. 
 
 Q. Is your present answer true as well of a railway made of 
 Bessemer-steel rails* and especially adapted, if it could be to freight ? 
 
 A. When you get beyond twelve miles an hour, you increase your 
 cost of running. 
 
 Q. And that would be true of a road adapted to freight as far as it 
 could be ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now running at the rate of twelve miles an hour, actual running- 
 time, how fast could you follow one train by another on a freight-road — 
 a road on which no passenger trains run ? 
 
 A. They should not be followed any nearer than fifteen minutes. 
 
 Q. They ought to be a quarter of an hour apart ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; but there would be no such necessity as that, because at 
 the destination you could not handle the property. The trains would 
 block up the terminal stations. 
 
 Q. Let us have your view of that. Suppose you hadterminal facili- 
 ties like those in Detroit, enabling you to unload these cars in four 
 minutes, and with facilities enough to enable you to unload a train of 
 cars at once 1 
 
 A. That applies only to grain, while a very large proportion of our 
 freight is not grain. For instance, we are bringing large quantities of 
 lumber here, you cannot unload a car of lumber in an hour. 
 
 Q. How with a car of live-stock ? 
 
 A. They could be unloaded readily. 
 
 Q. They get in and out themselves 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir, the live ones j occasionally a dead one has to be drawn 
 out. 
 
 Q. Speaking of grain and live-stock you could unload very rapidly I 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; with proper facilities for doing it. 
 
 Q. The same thing is true of coal, is it not! 
 . A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any exception save lumber ? 
 
 A. Flour. That would take longer to take care of. 
 
 Q. Flour in barrels'? 
 
14 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it would take about twenty minutes to unload a car of 
 flour, if you had proper facilities to do it. . 
 
 Q. So that taking miscellaneous freight, including safety in running, 
 your judgment is that one freight train could not properly ioiiow 
 another with less than fifteen minutes between ? ;: 
 
 A. Yes, sir : but when you get to the destination, it would t>e utterly 
 impossible to handle the property, one freight train coming so quickly 
 
 Q. But your judgment is that the maximum of rapid succession of 
 trains would be fifteen minutes apart ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and even then each train would have to keep on time to 
 to do that, or else you would get nearer together. 
 
 Q. I understand, then, the result of your answer to be that the diffi- 
 culty of unloading trains, disposing of their freight at the terminus, and 
 considerations of safety in moving trains on the track, taken together, 
 indicate fifteen minutes as the shortest space of time that should inter- 
 vene between following trains ? 
 
 A. What I mean to say is, that no train should follow closer to 
 another train than fifteen minutes behind it. 
 
 Q. You say that, for the double reason of safety in running the train 
 and managing them on the track, and also considerations of managing 
 and handling the freight at the terminus ? 
 
 A. I say that cannot be done and handle the freight at the terminus, 
 and furthermore that it is utterly impossible to keep that number of 
 trains all on time and keep them fifteen minutes apart. But suppose 
 one train has a hot journal, and has to stop fifteen minute's, the next 
 train comes behind it close, there would be a gap of thirty minutes 
 between the train that stopped and the one that went ahead of it, while 
 you would have two trains together. These trains moving up to make up 
 these fifteen minutes again would have to run at a greater increased speed 
 while the next train, before it started, would have another one upon it 
 again. So that it would be utterly impossible to run trains within 
 fifteen minutes of each other because of the difficulties that would be 
 likely to occur in the movement of trains. And when you got to the 
 destination, you could not handle the freight. 
 
 Q. Let me separate my question. Do you mean that you can run 
 trains regardless of discharging freight within fifteen minutes of each 
 other? 
 
 A. If they can all be kept on time. 
 
 Q. If you please, do not put in exceptions. I am talking of practical 
 questions. I now ask you whether, with a railroad in proper order, 
 you can or cannot run freight-trains following each other within fifteen 
 minutes ? 
 
 A. You can. 
 
 Q. And you can do that properly and safely ? 
 
 A. There is no difficulty about that if the men who run those trains 
 are up to the rules and abide by them, keeping " on time." 
 
 Q. Well, with the men running the trains did not know how to run 
 them they could not run them fifteen minutes apart with safety. Now do 
 you mean, also, that .you can or cannot discharge a train with proper 
 terminal facilities once in fifteen minutes, taking the average of freight. 
 You say it would take twenty minutes to unload flour fn barrels it 
 would take a very short time to unload grain ; live stock gets in and 
 out itself. Taking the average of freight which comes from Chicago to 
 New York, do you answer that fifteen minutes would or would not with 
 proper facilities, enable you to discharge and load freight ? 
 
TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOAED. 15 
 
 A. It would not. 
 
 Q. What is the time necessary? 
 
 A. I do not thiiik it could be done in less than half an hour. 
 
 Q. Then you say that that would measure practically the useful fre- 
 quency of trains ; that they ought to be thirty minutes apart in order 
 to adjust themselves to those necessities ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, one thing more, speaking of the distance between Chicago 
 and New York, how. many cars could an engine draw at a fair rate of 
 speed, twelve miles an hour ? 
 
 A. When the track was clear and the weather dry, the rail in good 
 order, they could haul about an average of thirty cars to a train. 
 
 Q. Thirty loaded cars "I 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the number would fall how much below that in the ordinary 
 vicissitudes of winter and summer. 
 
 A. There are times when we cannot haul over ten. It depends a good 
 deal upon circumstances. 
 
 Q. That is unusual. 
 
 A. No, sir ; there are a great many days in the winter when we did 
 not haul over ten. That is at the time when the snow is upon the 
 track and then there is a certain state of the atmosphere when it is im- 
 possible to make steam. With the same engine you cannot haul the 
 same number of cars two different days, when there is a difference in the 
 atmosphere by which steam cannot be generated as well on the one day 
 as the other: 
 
 Q. Taking the difference together, winter and summer months, what 
 is the average power of the engine ? 
 
 A. I do not think we average over twenty to twenty-five cars. 
 
 Q. So that twenty or twenty-five loaded cars in the unfavorable sea- 
 son is the average, and as high as thirty in the favorable season 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; probably from twenty to twenty-five. That is taking the 
 average of what we call the fall, winter and spring months, as against 
 thirty to thirty-five cars during the average of summer months. Of 
 course, a great deal depends on the engines. Some will haul a great 
 deal more than others, but we average that with good facilities and 
 good freight engines. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. I would like to know the difference in the tariff between summer 
 and winter. What per cent, is usually made ? 
 
 A. Our lowest in summer, I think, has been 40 cents from Chicago to 
 New York , our highest in winter, when the summer rate was 40, would 
 be up to 65. 
 . Q. The lowest you have ever had has been 40 and the highest 65 ? 
 
 A. The lowest published tariff, I think, from Chicago has been 40 
 cents, and of course as we go back in years we go back to 70 cents ; but 
 taking for the last two or three years, I think we have been as low as 
 40 cents and 65. The highest in winter, for the last two or three years, 
 I think, has been 65 cents from Chicago. 
 
 Q. I see, then, for three years the lowest has been that rate? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; I do not just now remember, but I think that is it. 
 
 By Mr. Sheeman : 
 
 Q. Did you in the winter of 1868 charge 52 cents a bushel for wheat 
 from Chicago ? 
 
16 TKANSPOKTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. We might in that year have got 45. I think -that year our highest 
 rate was 75 ; I am not positive of that. . , , . 
 
 Q. Our table then must be wrong in that particular. There is a taoie 
 which shows the rate on a bushel of wheat. You think that is an error 
 as to that year ? ., 
 
 A. I think so. It would be from the middle of January to the middle 
 of February. That table is for '67 and '68. I think very likely we did 
 do it for 53 at that time, because that was just the commencement of 
 the through-line. That commenced on the 1st day of January, 1867, 
 and the cars were then somewhat limited in number and it is possible 
 that rate might have, charged. You will notice, also, that it was only 
 for a short time, on the 1st of February, a drop was made. 
 
 By Mr. ConexestG: 
 
 Q. I understand your statement that freight trains should follow each 
 other with a half hour between, to be governed chiefly by the difficulty 
 of discharging those trains at the terminus in less than thirty minutes ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; and the difficulty of moving trains on time while on the 
 track. 
 
 Q. Well, now, you do not mean that you want thirty minutes between 
 trains as a mere question of moving trains, if they run twelve miles an 
 hour? 
 
 A. I think so, if you take into account the possibility and the very 
 great probability of all trains not keeping upon their time-table schedule, 
 deducting stops, would give running time more than twelve miles when 
 in motion. 
 
 Q. I thought we had passed from that, but I will return to it. Do 
 you mean or do you not, that thirty minutes interval between trains 
 with decent railway management is necessary in respect to the safety of 
 moving those trains twelve miles an hour ? 
 
 A. I put that on the movement alone at fifteen minutes. 
 
 Q. So I thought, and assumed that in my question. 
 
 A. Yes, sir, but we return to the other question, of their probability 
 of not all keeping on time, and including stoppage and the necessity of 
 time to handle the property at its destination would bring that out to 
 thirty minutes. 
 
 Q. So I assumed in my question, but you corrected me. Am I right 
 then in supposing that you fix thirty minutes, owing chiefly to the ne- 
 cessity of time in unloading the trains ? 
 
 A. And the probability that it would be, impossible to keep all the 
 trains upon schedule time of twelve miles an hour running time, exclu- 
 sive of stoppages. 
 
 Q. Well, we will have to separate that. Now I will go back. On a 
 railroad devoted exclusively to freight trains, proceeding at the rate of 
 twelve miles an hour, what is the necessary interval between trains, 
 regardless of unloading them % 
 
 A. Fifteen minutes. 
 
 Q. Could you not run them much closer than that in point of fact 
 with safety 1 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. In truth, do not many roads which you know run trains closer 
 than that? 
 
 A. I don't know any roads that do, unless it is just in starting out or 
 something of that sort. 
 
 Q. Then, confining it to the movement of trains alone, fifteen minutes 
 would do. Now you gauge the time to thirty minutes, owing, if I under- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 17 
 
 stand you, to the need of time in discharging the trains at the termi- 
 nus? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, and the necessary stoppage time. 
 
 Q. Then I ask you, suppose at the terminus you had switches and 
 turn-outs running to different store-houses, elevators, barges, wharves, 
 and so on, enabling you to unload different sections of the trains sim- 
 ultaneously; that would diminish, would it not, of course, the time of 
 discharging trains ! • 
 
 A. That would, provided you had in each train its particular class of 
 freight already separated to go upon those tracks ; but if you have a 
 mixed train, as a car of grain, next a car of lumber, and the next a car 
 of flour, there you would have to make two switches in order to place 
 that in a proper train to take its proper track for unloading. 
 
 Q. But the live-stock cars would not have to wait for the lumber-cars 
 to unload 1 
 
 A. Not if they came down in a live-stock train, and nothing else in 
 that train. 
 
 Q. Suppose they did not, suppose they came iu a mixed train, five 
 cars of live stock, and five of lumber, and five of grain, could not you 
 break up your train so as to run your five lumber-cars to the lumber- 
 yard, and your live-stock cars to the cattle-yard, and your grain-cars to 
 the elevator ? 
 
 A. You would have to take time then to break it up. You have got 
 to have time to put each proportion of the train on the proper track. 
 
 Q. There would be no difficulty in making up the train and putting 
 these three sets of cars next each other when you started ? 
 
 A. But you take it from different points, and take it on as you go 
 along. 
 
 Q. Would it take any more time to take out with the engine besides 
 its tender, say three cars, and run back and have the car taken on mid- 
 way of the train, than to cut the engine off alone, and put it in advance 
 of the other car ? 
 
 A. It would take no more time ; it would take very much more power, 
 and would not be so easily coupled. 
 
 Q. That is a pretty small quantity, though, is it not, considering the 
 short distance ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but this separation of trains would have to be made out- 
 side of the terminus, at some point, for instance, like Albany. When 
 the property comes down over the New York Central Eoad it matters not 
 to them whether that property is going to Boston, or to Saratoga, or 
 New York, or whether it is Albany proper; they hitch on to it; it 
 goes over their entire road. But when it gets to Albany it will not do 
 for them to haul the Boston freight down' here. It has to be separated 
 from the train so that the Boston and Albany Eoad can take it on. And 
 when you get to Springfield you have the same difficulty again. All the 
 property going up the Connecticut Eiver Eoad, or down the Hartford 
 Eoad, would have to be separated from the freight going on beyond. 
 Therefore they would have to have tracks and room and time allotted to 
 them to separate this freight again, to take its proper road for its proper 
 destination. Then when you come into New York, the cattle.yard herein 
 one place, elevator in another, flour, storage at another point, and that 
 has to be separated again, all of which takes time, even if you have the 
 track room to separate, unless the trains are made up with each particu- 
 lar kind of property before you reach the city. 
 
 Then, in handling grain, there would be the same difficulty. It would 
 be utterly impossible to handle the grain in that manner with the speed 
 2t 
 
18 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 of which we have been talking, unless that grain was inspected, so that 
 the grade of each could go into a bin by itself, and the cars so ar ™"£?" 
 that they could be discharged at once, and the receiver or *£® pro 9 T pVy 
 would take his receipt, for instance, for so many bushels or sso. - S£i- 
 cago wheat. When he sent his receipt there he would receive ms im 
 2 Chicago wheat without any regard to whether that was the identical 
 wheat that started for him or not. If you have to give him the identi- 
 cal wheat, it would be utterly impossible to do that. It is tnan system 
 of inspection that is involved. Then you bring in a tram here with 
 may be, all No. 2 Chicago wheat, and all inspected No. I, ana a lull 
 train-load goes into warehouses, that could be unloaded without any 
 difficulty at all. But suppose you have twenty cars No. 2 spring-wheat 
 on the train, and next No. 1 white Michigan wheat, and the next is am- 
 ber, there are two switches to be made in order to place those cars in 
 position to be discharged at all into their proper receptacle for each 
 grade of grain. That takes time. Therefore, to make these switches 
 to get property so separated that it can be discharged, a half hour would 
 be as little as possible. 
 
 Q. Therefore, with any kind of facilities that you know of, you could 
 move trains faster than you could discharge them % 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we can always do that. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Is not that practically so, with the exception of New York, that 
 they have an arrangement for sorting these trains, say Philadelphia 
 and Baltimore, and by a well-conducted system of railroad in New 
 York ought they not to sort all these trains some distance from New 
 York? 
 
 A. But it makes no difference where ; you have to take time. 
 
 Q. But with sufficient side-tracking? 
 
 A. You cannot make a switch, if you have a hundred side-tracks, but 
 in a certain time. If these were so distributed, you might take a train 
 of twenty-five cars and so distribute the freight through that it could 
 not be switched in an hour. 
 
 Q. But are you not aware that both in Philadelphia and Baltimore 
 they not only let trains in five minutes apart, but sort them and arrange 
 them before they get in % 
 
 A. That is only where they are simply starting out or coming in. 
 You take twelve miles an hour, and you run trains within fifteen min- 
 utes of each other and the wheel breaks. Before that train can be 
 stopped, even supposing it does not go off the track, occupies the time of 
 the train's men — the conductor, brakesmen, and everybody else. There 
 the first thing is to stop that train to prevent disaster. Suppose that 
 ccoupies three minutes. Next they should go back a distance of not less 
 than three hundred yards with their signals to stop the approaching 
 train. Take the three minutes allowed to stop a train and get their 
 danger-signals, flag or light, supposing it is perfectly handy, they have 
 to go from the train and brakes back three hundred yards, and by the 
 time they get back, and the men have time to set the brakes on the ap- 
 proaching train, the whole fifteen minutes are exhausted, or nearly so 
 
 near enough for safety. 
 
 Q. When you speak of trains you mean each engine, whether they 
 are in sections or in trains 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; sometimes heavy trains will have two locomotives. 
 
 Q. But they sometimes go out convoys; you call each one a train? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and each one has a set of men. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 19 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What do you estimate the present capacity of your road for moving 
 trains eastward ? How many trains can you move a day eastward over 
 the New York Central double track ; I mean under the present system, 
 including passenger-trains. What is the ultimate capacity of the road 
 for moving trains eastward? 
 
 A. I think they move trains about every three-quarters of an hour; 
 I am not positive about that. 
 
 Q. About what proportion of the time are those freight-trains stand- 
 ing on the side tracks waiting the passage of express, or other trains ? 
 
 A. That point requires, perhaps, some little explanation. You know 
 that on all roads, within certain distances, the wheels, axles, and cars 
 have to be inspected to see that there are no cracked wheels, no loose 
 bolts, &c., which are liable to get out and cause disaster. These trains 
 will go in upon side tracks, perhaps at Eochester; while this inspection 
 is going on the passenger-trains are passing, and the inspection will 
 occupy as much time, perhaps, as the passenger-trains occupy in passing 
 them. Therefore, where there is, apparently, some delay for the passen- 
 ger-trains to go by, it is no longer a delay than would have to be had 
 on any road entirely for freight to do this inspection, provided the 
 passenger-trains are so arranged that they can pass while these inspec- 
 tions are going on. 
 
 Q. You think that a freight-road, built exclusively for freight-pur- 
 poses, would have very little greater capacity than the present system? 
 
 A. They would have to occupy nearly as much time to inspect the 
 cars, wheels, axles, and running-gear of cars if it was exclusively for 
 freight as would be occupied in the passenger-trains passing them, pro- 
 vided the time-table could be so arranged that the passenger trains 
 could pass while this inspection was going on. 
 
 Q. Is it so arranged now on the road ? 
 
 A. I think it is ; I am not positive. The inspection takes place at 
 Eochester, Syracuse, Utica, and West Albany. There are four sets of 
 inspection between Albany and Buffalo, and one at Buffalo, making 
 five during those three hundred miles, and I think that they are so 
 arranged that when they stand upon the side track and the passenger- 
 trains have passed them, going west, then the freight- trains follow. 
 Well, when they follow, they keep, perhaps, within five minutes of each 
 other, or even closer, until they pass the limits of the city, and then the 
 head train keeps increasing its speed until they are a proper distance 
 apart. Then, before the next passenger-train gets up to cover them, 
 they have got to the next inspection-point. 
 
 Q. How many trains a day in the busy season of the year do you 
 move eastward over your road ; what is the maximum number ? 
 
 A. That I do not know ; 1 have not the timetable with me at present, 
 I think the amount was somewhere near 4,000,000 of tons for the year 
 1872, but I am not positive about that. 
 
 Q. Do you charge any higher rate for carrying fourth-class freights 
 over your lines than through other cars ? 
 - A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. The same freight? 
 
 A. Yes sir ; that is the point that I forget to mention. The line cars 
 are simply for the purpose of facilitating the business at the same rates 
 charged in cars — without the handling at each terminal point. 
 
 Q. If a car loaded in Iowa or Minnesota passes to New York, does 
 not the shipper save the Chicago expense ? 
 
20 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. Yes, sir; if loaded with grain the car goes to his warehouse, 
 receives the property, goes clear of Chicago elevators entirely, and goes 
 to any farmer or dealer that he sees fit to send it to in New England, it 
 he chooses to do it. 
 
 Q. Who pays for loading and unloading your lines, the company or 
 the shipper % 
 
 A. The company. There are some points in the West where parties 
 own their warehouses and handle their own property; but there is 
 nothing allowed them for doing it. 
 
 Q. In speaking of the freight-lines, did you include any except those 
 over which you have control — the "Blue Line"? 
 
 A. W T hen I speak of those lines I speak of all co-operative freight- 
 lines that run over the New York Central Eoad; and those are the only 
 lines I have personally a knowledge of. 
 
 Q. Those co-operative lines you say are owned by the stockholders of 
 the company, or by the company itself? 
 
 A. By the company itself. 
 
 Q. There is no distinction in any way between the ownership of these 
 lines and the ownership of the other property of the road % 
 
 A. None at all. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by co-operative, as distinguished from other 
 freight-lines % 
 
 A. For instance, when the property is loaded into the New York Cen- 
 tral car to go through to Chicago, in what we call a common car, it 
 would go to Suspension Bridge, and there be handled and go into a 
 Great Western car, requiring two sets of check-clerks, and the handling 
 from the one car into the warehouse, and from the warehouse over to 
 the other company's car, and the same at Detroit. 
 
 Q. I did not make myself understood. There are several kinds of 
 freight-lines — the co-operative and, as I understand it, the non-co-opera- 
 tive ; is that the proper term 1 
 
 A. I do not know of the non -co-operative. 
 
 Q. Not upon your road 1 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. There are no freight lines on your road except the co-operative, 
 which you have described 1 
 
 A. No, sir ; none that I am aware of — that is, on the eastward bound. 
 The "Merchants' Dispatch" is about the same thing. They are a co- 
 operative line, in effect, although different from the " Blue Line." 
 
 Q. Is the "Merchants' Dispatch Line" owned entirely by the New 
 York Central Company, or are there other outside parties interested in 
 it"? 
 
 A. That I do not know ; I know nothing of their present organization 
 beyond the fact that they went once a month to audit accounts with the 
 roads over which they run. 
 
 Q. Do all of those roads furnish cars in proportion to the length of 
 the road ? 
 
 A. They are supposed to furnish cars in proportion to the mileage 
 and the length of time they are occupied to do the business upon their 
 xoads. You will see at once that the New York Central Eoad being a 
 middle line, where all the roads branching from.it through to the West- 
 ern States would go down and come up on, that their mileage per mile 
 of road, would be, perhaps, four or five times the mileage on 'the same 
 length of road upon a road that branches out from them ; and some- 
 times fifteen times as much time is required to make one mile on short 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 21 
 
 hauls, to load a car from teams, and get it back to the main line, ready 
 for New York Central to haul it over their road. 
 
 Q. Do all of those lines hire cars from companies that furnish cars 
 for hire — any of the roads in your line ? 
 
 A. I think not, as a line. Eoads may hire their quota of cars for line- 
 service, or get them in any way that suits them. 
 
 Q. There are certain companies, you know, who manufacture cars and 
 hire them to certain people? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; but we are not supposed to know how the roads in the 
 line get their quota of cars. 
 
 Q. I asked you that question with a view of asking what they paid a 
 mile for the use of those cars. 
 
 A. The mileage-balances, as I explained to you before, are settled 
 upon the clearing-house principle, at the rate of a cent and a half for a 
 mile for the balance; but if one road makes a- mile and another road 
 makes a mile with its car over each other's roads there is no balance ; 
 but if one company's car makes three and another company's car two 
 miles, there is a cent and a half going from one company to the other 
 for the use of the car upon that balance. The one mile balances the 
 the other mile ; but if he has anything beyond that, then it is a cent 
 and a half for each surplus mile. 
 
 Q. You say the price of freights is fixed at Chicago ; who appoints 
 the men who fix the freights f 
 
 A. Each company has a general freight agent, and they, by consulta- 
 tion, make a freight tariff from Chicago to all competing points East. 
 
 Q. The railroads of the West appoint agents, then, for the freight 
 bound eastward ? 
 
 A. Each company has a general freight agent. 
 
 Q. And those agents meet together and fix the freights ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have they absolute power over that ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they consult the companies with reference to fixing that freight, 
 or is that whole matter referred to them without consultation 1 
 
 A. The general freight agents have the matter in charge and they 
 get together and find what competition they have to work against and 
 fix the tariff according to circumstances. 
 
 Q. And the same thing is true at the East. Each company appoints 
 its agents f 
 
 A. Yes, sir. That is, each company centering in Chicago. The point 
 I called your attention to before was the companies centering in Chicago. 
 They make that rate while the New York Central, Boston and Albany, 
 or the Great Western have no voice in it whatever. 
 
 Q. How does it happen, then, that you sometimes fall out and run 
 each other on freights ? Is it because those agents cannot agree 1 
 Sometimes the roads cut each other on freight. 
 
 A. Each set of roads is anxious to do all the business that they can. 
 
 Q. Then at such times there is no agreement among those agents f 
 
 A. There is an agreement and a tariff rate is issued. When they are 
 doing business at a less rate, then they are doing it without authority at 
 all, and the roads are not bound to accept their proportion of a cut rate 
 unless they see fit to do so, But a published tariff that is made without 
 consultation of eastern roads at all, that published tariff is carried out 
 without consulting the eastern roads upon the subject. 
 
 Q. You' made a statement a while ago with reference to the capacity 
 
22 - TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 of the canals, which differed very much from my information upon that 
 point. I would like to ask you a question about it, I unde „ r ^° ft ° n n ^° 
 to state that the capacity of the Erie Canal was about ll,oou,uuu per 
 
 A. Yes, sir; it is estimated that there are about 7,000 boats, with an 
 average tonnage of 250 tons, each making one round trip in ou (lays, tor 
 200 days. 
 
 Q. Is that not on all canals of New York ? «,.■■, e t i. ™ • 
 
 A. That would be on all the canals of New York. Outside ot the Erie 
 Canal there is very little, if you recollect. And while there was no ap- 
 parent increase in the canal capacity itself, there is nearly a double 
 capacity owing to the smaller size boats having passed out of existence 
 and larger size boats having taken their place. The capacity, as you will 
 observe, is doubled in the size of the boats with the same number ot boats. 
 
 Q. We have a report made some two or three years ago to the New 
 York State Convention, in which they estimate the ultimate capacity of 
 the Erie Canal at ninety boats each way per day, which amounts to a 
 little over 4,000,000 of tons per annum as its capacity for moving east- 
 ward-bound freight. I called your attention to that to know how the 
 difference of opinion arose. 
 
 A. It takes just as long to lock a boat through to carry seventy-five 
 tons as one carrying two hundred and fifty tons, provided the lock 
 capacity is suitable for it, so that the same number of boats as I have 
 explained to you, passing in the same time, would take twice as much 
 property as they would at that time, owing to the difference in the size 
 of the boats. 
 
 Q. This estimate was placed upon boats of 210 tons, which seems to 
 be the practical capacity ; multiplied by 90 for 220 days, gave 4,000,000 
 tons, according to my recollection. 
 
 A. But you take ninety boats for that length of time per day, and 
 you will see that there are a great many more boats than that. 
 
 Q. There may be more boats on the various canals, but ninety boats 
 they estimate as the capacity for passing a single lock in a day. 
 
 A. But you understand that the locks are double and can be increased 
 in size. 
 
 Q. But they say that ninety boats are all that can pass either way, 
 for the ultimate capacity one hundred, and they estimate the practical 
 capacity at ninety. 
 
 A. That is a mistake, because during the busy season, unless they 
 did more than that, they never would carry the tons they have already 
 done. That would disprove them at once. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say that the capacity of all the roads moving 
 freight eastward would be about 30,000 tons a day ? 
 
 A. Moving to the seaboard at the different points. 
 
 Q. What roads do you include in that estimate ? 
 
 A. Roads passing to New Orleans, and to Baltimore, Philadelphia, 
 New York, Boston, Portland, and Montreal. 
 
 Q. Then you include all the roads leading in any direction from the 
 interior to the sea-board °i 
 
 A. Yes, sir, from the grain-producing couutry. 
 
 Q. Thirty thousand tons per day is the ultimate capacity, is if? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. The southern roads do not reach our grain-producing 
 country. 
 
 Q. What is your judgment as to the relative economy of water and 
 rail transportation, taking the existing water-lines ; I mean the Erie 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 23 
 
 Canal, and the lakes, and the leading railroads to the East ? Which 
 can carry cheapest, and how much ? In other words, can you compete 
 with water ¥ 
 
 A. We perhaps cannot compete with them where the property has to 
 be moved in very large quantities. 
 
 Q. I mean fourth-class heavy freight, such as grain ? 
 
 A. For such articles as corn and grain, which has to be moved in 
 quantities of eight or ten thousand bushels at a time to one consignee, 
 it would be cheaper for him probably to move that property by water, 
 if it was going to a point that could be reached by water ; but the ne- 
 cessity of the business is such that each to come from the producer to 
 the consumer, they do not require it in such quantities. Therefore he, 
 in order to do his business upon a small capital and receive his car at 
 the place of production, or near it, and send it to the place of consump- 
 tion, can do that on a very small capital, as compared with the amount 
 that he would have to pay in taking large quantities and sending it into 
 store and letting it accumulate there until he gets a quantity sufficient 
 for a vessel-load. The interest of his money is going on, and his insur- 
 ance and storage are going on ; and then his water-communication, while 
 it is cheaper than rail, to a certain extent in these large quantities, when 
 he gets it to his destination, there is the elevator charging again, and 
 his insurance upon a large quantity, and the prospect or chance of a 
 fall in the market. All that makes it larger in the end if he requires 
 this property for consumption, and only requires a certain quantity a 
 day. He makes money in the end by sending it by rail in quantities as 
 he wants to consume it, more than he would to send in those large 
 quantities, with the accumulation of charges, interest, and that sort of 
 thing upon it, and receiving it and holding it in large quantities until 
 he consumes it. 
 
 Q. Looking to the general consideration of the great cereal crops of 
 the West, and assuming the improved water-lines, so that vessels, say, 
 carrying 750 tons, might pass through the Erie or Oswego Canal, or 
 by Lake Champlain, do you think it possible for railroads to be improved 
 in any way so that they could compete with them in economy ? 
 
 A. I do not, sir ; not where it has to be moved in those large quanti- 
 ties for foreign shipment, but for consumption they can. 
 
 Q. By how much would you fail to compete with them in the actual 
 carrying charges, leaving out the question of time and other considera- 
 tions that you mention ? 
 
 A. The rail ought to get at least 25 per cent. more. 
 
 Q. How do you bring your wheat, corn, and other grains from 
 Albany to New York and pass over the New York Central Eailroad ; 
 how is it brought from Albany ? 
 
 A. It is brought from Athens in barges. 
 
 Q. Where is that point ? 
 
 A. It is a point on the river below Albany. 
 
 Q. Why do you unload your cars there instead of carrying them 
 through to New York ? 
 
 A. To get the additional facilities for handling the cars that we can- 
 not handle in New York. 
 
 Q. Is it not also because it is cheaper to take the water wherever you 
 strike it? 
 
 A. That may be one consideration. I do not know as to that. 
 
 By Mr. CONKLING: 
 Q. Do they use the cut-off now which connected it with Athens ? 
 
24 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Explain that to the committee, if you please. . 
 
 A. As I said before, with regard to the difficulties of terminal points, 
 handling large quantities of cars in a given time in a place use jsew 
 York, the impossibility of doing that upon so limited a space ot ground 
 as they would have to, and property then having to go into a barge 
 here after you had gone through with the difficulties ot banOling it 
 here, are brought down to Athens, where they can handle it with these 
 increased facilities ; it goes iuto a barge and comes from there down 
 here, and is delivered perhaps within a very short time. 
 
 Q. Brought down to Athens by Albany or Greenbush, or directly 
 from Schenectady to Athens ? 
 
 A. From Schnectady to Athens. 
 
 Q. By a cut-off? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; by a cut-off. There is a cut-off at Schenectady. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. I see you are familiar with the moving of trains. I was unable to 
 agree with your conclusions with Mr. Conkling, and I wondered whether 
 you had had actual charge of the running of trains on a road. 
 
 A. I have had charge of the running of trains. 
 
 Q. How long since ? 
 
 A. I had charge of the Michigan Central Road in 1865. 
 
 Q. The running and moving of trains came under your supervision? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and three years before that I moved trains on other 
 roads. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Mr. Davis says that the trains on the Baltimore 
 and Ohio Boad are discharged sometimes, and very often, as frequently 
 as once in five minutes. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Convoys are run five minutes apart. 
 
 Mr. Hates. You do not mean that they discharge their freight and 
 move off in five minutes 1 
 
 Mr. Davis. I mean that convoys of trains, say of ten trains, pass a 
 given point within an hour, and that they receive them in that way at 
 the ends of their roads, and start them in that way. 
 
 Mr. Hayes. Yes, but they are not kept that way while they are on 
 the road. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Certainly, convoys every five minutes are allowed to run. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. They are coal-trains. 
 
 Mr. Davis. They are all, except passenger-trains. 
 
 Mr. Hayes. I would not want to be engineer or brakeman on a road 
 of that kind. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Why not 1 ? 
 
 Mr. Hayes. Simply because in case of an accident other trains come 
 into you. It is utterly impossible to flag trains and prevent an accident 
 where the trains run within five minutes of each other. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Some very good railroad-men differ with you on that- 
 some men who have been successful in managing roads. 
 
 Mr. Hayes. But you would have to send a flag back'some three hun- 
 dred yards. 
 
 Mr. Davis. That depends altogether on circumstances, sir. Some- 
 times one hundred yards, and sometimes none if you have a tangent 
 
 If you have an up-grade you are running in sight of one another and 
 it makes no difference. If you have a down-grade, of course you are 
 right. By the regulations of some roads managed pretty well in con- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. lb 
 
 voys, they are allowed to go •within five minutes of each other ; and 
 they run them in that way by turn-outs, formed in the shape of a Y, at 
 the ends of the road. ' At Lukes Point I suppose they receive ten trains 
 within an hour frequently. 
 
 Mr. Hayes. But they do not receive ten trains the next hour. 
 
 Mr. Davis. But there is no reason they could not if they had suffi- 
 cient turn-outs. 
 
 Mr. Hayes. What would they do with the property f 
 
 Mr. Davis. They unload it. They could have a hundred turn-outs if 
 they wanted it, as well as two, if they had the ground. But supposing 
 that we approach a point within a mile or five miles of our terminus, 
 and there we had ten or twenty turn-outs — one for live stock, one for 
 grain, and another for coal, and so on. The cars come there regulated. 
 The switchmen turn them on either track. To a great extent they are 
 sorted before they arrive there. For instance, grain may come ou one 
 turn-out or switch, and a coal-train on to another. Some of them have 
 coal-convoys and some of them have miscellaneous ones. Now, half an 
 hour for each train would limit a double road to a very small capacity 
 in a day. Under your rule but forty-eight trains could be received a 
 day, and that would be very small. 
 
 Mr. Hayes. But suppose, for instance, you have twelve trains, one 
 every five minutes. Suppose you had just capacity for those twelve 
 trains. You have twelve turn-outs. They must be all for the very same 
 grade of property, arid they must go to the discharging-point for that 
 property without any switching at all. When they get to that point 
 can they discharge those twelve trains and let twelve more in within 
 the next hour to discharge, and do it through the twenty-four hours 1 
 
 Mr. Davis. If necessary they could have a hundred turn-outs at the 
 end of the road. 
 
 Mr. Hayes. Suppose you had a thousand. If you have one car in 
 that train not of the same grade, and going to the same place to un- 
 load, VjOu cannot switch that car out in five minutes. 
 
 Mr. Davis. If you, as a railroad-man, say you cannot switch a car in 
 five minutes, then, of course, we are so far apart it is hardly worth 
 while to pursue the matter. 
 
 Mr. Hayes. But, taking the ordinary way-train, if you have the train 
 ready, and car ready to switch, and know where it is to go, and cut it 
 off, switching it at the right point, you can do it within five minutes. 
 But you cannot take a train, and find a car in it that has to come out, 
 and to find where that car has to go, and put it on a side-track. If you 
 do it in five minutes you have got smarter railroad-men than generally 
 run freight-trains. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. I understood one of your deductions to be that the tonnage ca- 
 pacity by rail and water is far in excess of the products ? 
 
 A. If evenly distributed over tb^e time. 
 
 Q. I understand that is, if the freight was sent regularly, so that 
 you could be constantly employed through the time ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you consider the excess would be % 
 
 A. I think we could move, twice as much as is now being moved, if 
 we had it to move in a uniform manner, with proper facilities at termi- 
 nal points for each kind of freight. 
 
 Q. If you were regularly employed all tie time ■? 
 
26 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 .A. "V ps sir 
 
 Q." la making that estimate, what roads do you include? You stated 
 a while ago, I think, in answer to a question put by Senator vvinuom, 
 that you only included roads that reached the Atlantic. 
 
 A. The Baltimore and Ohio Eoad and its branches into Baltimore, 
 the roads into Philadelphia, the roads into New York, the roaas into 
 Boston, the roads to Montreal and Portland. 
 
 Q. You do not go south of the Baltimore and Ohio Koad. i 
 
 A. No, sir ; except where you take it down the Mississippi, from the 
 Mississippi to the Missouri Valley down to New Orleans. 
 
 Q. Then these roads you have mentioned have a capacity ot thirty 
 thousand tons a day ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; if it was equally distributed. 
 
 Mr. Strickland Kneasu, assistant president of the Pennsylvania 
 Eailroad : 
 
 Gentlemen : For the purpose of facilitating business and giving you 
 all' the practical information that you desire, our company has re- 
 quested its operating officers to come before you, that they may give 
 practical answers to such questions as may be presented, and for that 
 reason our general manager, Mr. Cassalt, and our controller, Mr. Lewis, 
 are now here and will give you all information regarding the operating 
 and general accounts of our road that you may desire. Ool. Joseph D. 
 Potts, who has charge of all the outside business connected with the Empire 
 Fast Freight Line upon our road, and is president of the Empire Line, 
 has also kindly consented to meet you in our behalf so that you may have 
 such answers given to your questions on the part of our company as will 
 fully cover the field of your researches.. I would respectfully request 
 that Colonel Potts may be now examined. 
 
 The Chairman : 
 Colonel Potts will please state his position in the road. 
 
 Mr. Joseph D. Potts : I have no official position in connection with the 
 road itself, but I have charge as president of the fast-freight organization 
 known as the Empire Transportation Company, which is an independ- 
 ent fast-freight line operating over the Pennsylvania Railroad, and 
 some of its leased lines, and the various connections of that route. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Is your position similar-, to that of Mr. Hayes ? 
 
 A. Very similar, sir ; except that the company which I represent is a 
 company that is known as an independent corporation. It is a private 
 corporation, not connected with the railroad companies except as an 
 agent. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. A stock company 1 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Please state the nature of the connection and the business done 
 through it 1 
 
 A. The business is very similar ; indeed I may say is entirely similar 
 to that described to you by Mr. Hayes, except that 'instead of' the rail- 
 road companies owning the cars we use, they agree with us to furnish 
 them. We furnish them and are resixmsible for them in all respects • 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 27 
 
 pay for them and own them. They allow us the same car-service that 
 the co-operative lines allow each other, viz, one cent and a half per 
 mile run per car, that being supposed to be about a fair equivalent for 
 the responsibility of keeping them in order, for loss by decay, and for in- 
 terest on cost. That is a cent and a half per mile run per car. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Q. A cent and a half a ton a mile for a car, I understand? 
 A. No, sir ; a cent and a half for a mile run ; a car of eight wheels. 
 Q. What capacity ? 
 A. They are built to carry twelve tons. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Still the tonnage does not affect the price paid 1 
 
 A. It does not, at least on certain roads. The method of compen- 
 sating the car-owner differs on various roads. The western system is 
 that which I have just stated. The eastern system is very ordinarily 
 either by the ton of freight carried per mile, or else by a certain per- 
 centage of the earnings on that freight per mile, but the general finan- 
 cial result is substantially the same thing. The advantage of the east- 
 ern system is that the car is not paid for unless it carries something. 
 The compensation depends altogether in that case upon the amount that 
 the car carries, or if it is a percentage on the rate, it depends on the 
 amount earned on the freight carried. But our compensation, East or 
 West, is that which is paid by the road for cars which the roads them- 
 selves own, and which they interchange with each other. It is the or- 
 dinary car-service which their experience shows to be about sufficient 
 to cover expenses and interest. 
 
 The remainder of our connection with the road is that they hire us 
 to do by the contract what they engage Mr. Hayes and his staff to do 
 by salary. In most cases — I believe in all now — the contract rate is a 
 certain percentage upon the rates of freight which are earned. If the 
 rates of freight are high, our compensation is increased in gross amount ; 
 if low, our compensation is diminished, because it is a percentage of the 
 earnings. For that percentage we assume certain responsibilities, viz, 
 we collect all the freight-charges, or, if we do not, we lose them ; we 
 establish agencies all over the country, and pay their expenses, office- 
 rent, stationery-expenses, the services of the men, &c. Those agencies 
 are for the purpose of bringing the route to the knowledge of shippers 
 of way-billing freight, issuing of through-bills of lading, collection of 
 freight-charges, and of settling any claims shippers may have for dam- 
 ages, regardless of what part of the route the damage is done on. If, 
 for instance, a shipper in Omaha wants to send freight to New York, he 
 gets from us our through bill of lading. If that freight arrives here 
 damaged, it is a matter of no moment to him on what road the damage 
 occurred; he looks to our agent at this place to reimburse him, and it 
 is done. If he is overcharged, that is, if the rate collected is higher 
 than that agreed on, the agent here refunds him the money. It makes 
 but a single organization for the public at large to deal with. Those 
 agencies are very numerous, and reach a great many local points other 
 than the principal commercial points, and it has enabled small dealers 
 at small towns to secure all the advantages which would attend their 
 location in large towns. We run, for instance, with our line through 
 Easton, Pa. A man in Easton, wishing grain, can buy it in Peoria, Bur- 
 lington, Omaha, or Chicago, if he chooses, and have it brought to 
 him in the same car it started in, and just at the same rate as though 
 
28 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 ifc had been shipped to New York. Beside the collection of earningi, 
 we assume the payment of all damages that we cannot snow ,10 nave 
 occurred, through the carelessness of the roads themselves, which are 
 tolerably numerous, such as thefts. Those we have to pay out ot the 
 percentage allowed us. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. How about accidents ? 
 
 A. Not if an accident is established on the roads. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Have you regular tariff-sheets for different classes of goods? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it is proper to say, however, that we are merely the agent 
 of each road with which we make a contract; we form, as it were, a 
 joint agency, a kind of fusing of the roads into a single mass for this 
 particular purpose. We have nothing to do with the fixing of the rates 
 at all. The railroad companies fix the rates at which we carry traffic, 
 Those rates are generally fixed by the general freight-agent of the road 
 upon which the freight starts, and whatever rate he names is the rate 
 at which we carry. Those rates are the same as the rates named for 
 the carriage in any other freight-cars whatever. 
 
 Q. Do you pay these roads different rates, or are they all paid pro 
 rata? 
 
 A. The substantial result is about the same ; but every road has its 
 own idea about a variety of points, and some prefer to make arrange- 
 ments in one way and some in another. The car-service question each 
 road determines for itself. 
 
 Q. You make the best arrangement you can with each road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; but the substantial results are almost exactly identical. 
 They reach the same result in different ways. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 Q. You have a separate contract, then, with every road ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Your compensation, if I understand it, then, is the difference be- 
 tween the arrangements you make with the company and your tariff- 
 sheet? 
 
 A. The arrangement we make with the company is not a fixed arrange- 
 ment; it is a percentage ordinarily of the actual rate. In other words, 
 they undertake to decide about what the expense of doing the work by 
 salaries would amount to in a percentage on the rate, and that is about 
 what they give us. The only substantial difference, therefore, between 
 our own line and a co-operative line is to be found in the actual financial 
 results to the road itself; that is, whether it is cheaper for the road to 
 have this work done by contract, or to have it done by parties to whom 
 it pays a salary. Which is the cheaper method, I do not know that I 
 can answer. My impression is that our method is cheaper to the roads. 
 
 Q. Do yon, or the company, discharge the cars at the ends of the 
 routes, or at your destination ? 
 
 A. At some points we do. At New York, for instance, we furnish our 
 own depot. It is a peculiarly expensive place, and the business is very 
 large, requiring a very large outlay of money to provide the necessary 
 pier and depot- room. No co-operation could be secured anion «■ the 
 various railways we serve for the furnishing of these large facilities. The 
 road over which we run into New York is a short line of only some 
 
TRANSPOKTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 29 
 
 seventy- four miles, and it could not afford to undertake alone to furnish 
 the expensive depot facilities requisite at this end of the line. The 
 other roads did not feel disposed to furnish any share of it, and the 
 general arrangement is, therefore, for us to furnish the depot here. 
 
 Q. Have you agents or offices in all the principal points of the West 
 and East? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; not only at all the principal points, but at a great many 
 minor points. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. As I understand you, then, while of course there is a profit to 
 ! both the railroad and to your company, you state that the expense to 
 the producer and the consumer is no greater than if the railroad worked 
 by itself? 
 
 A. No, sir ; our rates are at all times the same as they are in the co- 
 operative line and in the railroad companies' own cars. 
 
 Q. I understand you to say you think your plan is the cheaper 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; to the railroad. I think it gets more net money than it 
 can do by the co-operative or other existing methods. 
 
 Q. Your rates, however, are the same as the co-operative line ? 
 
 A. Precisely so, at all times. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. "What number of cars have you in your line ? 
 
 A. We have between 3,000 and 4,000. 
 
 Q. Are there any other lines used on the Pennsylvania Eoad? 
 
 A. The Union Line was a line precisely similar to ours. 
 
 Q. Is that running now ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but the Pennsylvania Eailroad Company bought out all 
 of its cars last summer. 
 
 Q. There is, then, no other freight-line running on the Pennsylvania 
 Bailroad but yours ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I think the Merchants' Dispatch, running on the New 
 York Central, owns its own cars. There are a large number of short 
 lines in Pennsylvania established by law. By the old system of public 
 works, under State regulations, the State furnished nothing but the 
 road and motive power, and any one had a right to put on his own car or 
 cars; and that same system has been inherited by the Pennsylvania 
 road, and, indeed, it is made obligatory on most of the Pennsylvania 
 roads to haul any safe car the owner thereof chooses to present for 
 towage. 
 
 Q. Is this discrimination that you speak of by percentage, in addition 
 to the mileage for your car ? 
 
 A. The percentage compensation allowed is in addition to the mileage, 
 which is simply the ordinary mileage they pay for cars. 
 
 Q. You receive, then, a cent and a half a mile for every mile your 
 cars run, and, in addition to that, a certain percentage on the amount 
 of earnings ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; for which we do the service I have mentioned. 
 
 Q. Can you state now about how that percentage ranges ? 
 
 A. The percentage is ordinarily a fixed thing. I think it will proba- 
 bly run from 5 to 10 per cent., according to the character and cost of 
 carriage of the goods. 
 
 Q. The earnings? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say you had nothing to do with the establish- 
 ment of prices of freights. 
 
30 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. No, sir; not anything, except so far as we may represent matters 
 to the proper general freight-agent as to what the necessities ot any 
 case or set of circumstances seem to demand. 
 
 Q. Is this company entirely independent of the railroad company .< 
 
 A. Entirely; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are any of the directors or officers of the railroad company inter- 
 ested in your line ? 
 
 A. I think none of the directors of any railroad company are inter- 
 ested in our line. 1 know of none. There are a few of the minor officers, 
 of perhaps not over two or three of the roads, who have an interest; 
 small stockholders. I do not think any officer who has any voice what- 
 ever in determining our relations ever had any interest. Those that 
 have, have bought their stock in open market, as they would buy any 
 other stock. 
 
 Q. But you do not know that any of the directors or controlling offi- 
 cers of the railroad company have now any interest in your company? 
 
 A. Not anv- 
 
 Q. You understand that there is a certain charge of that kind? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; but I do not think there is 5 per cent, of our property 
 owned by parties having anything to do with the railroad companies we 
 traverse. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. I understand your line is principally o-n the Pennsylvania Road? 
 
 A. We ruu over the Pennsylvania Boad east of Marysville, where the 
 Northern Central Boad crosses, then follow the Northern Central up to 
 Sunbury ; we then follow the Philadelphia and Erie to Erie. Prom 
 Erie we branch off to the different western points. 
 
 Q. Do you use roads other than those that are controlled by the Penn- 
 sylvania Central ? 
 
 A. O, yes, sir ; the largest portion, about S5 per centum of the mile- 
 age, of the roads that we run over are not only not controlled by them, 
 but are very strong enemies of the Pennsylvania Central in a business 
 point of view. Between New York and Erie we run over the New Jer- 
 sey Central, Lehigh Valley, the Philadelphia and Beading until we 
 strike the Philadelphia and Erie. West of Erie we run over the Lake 
 Shore, Chicago, Burlington and Quincy, Burlington and Missouri River, 
 the Cleveland, Columbus and Indianapolis, and the various roads to 
 Saint Louis. 
 
 Q. The cause of the question was, when you were introduced I under- 
 stood you represented the Pennsylvania Boad. 
 
 A. That part of our route from which there is no divergence, ex- 
 cept at its termini, is the route which is controlled by the Pennsyl- 
 vania Eailroad, namely, the Philadelphia and Erie Road. We ruu over 
 that line its entire length, and hence it might be considered as the trunk- 
 line of our whole system, and therefore, in a measure, we represent the 
 Pennsylvania Eailroad Company's freight organization more especially 
 than any other. In fact we are the only fast-freight line now running 
 over any of the Pennsylvania Eailroad Company's organization, except 
 as before stated. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Do you run on the route between Harrisburgh and Pittsburgh ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; that route was occupied by the Union Line. 
 
 Q. Who runs that route now 1 
 
 A. The Union Line still exists, but the Pennsylvania Eailroad Com- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 31 
 
 pany bought out all of its cars. It was formed at a time when the 
 Pennsylvania Railroad had no connections west of Pittsburgh which they 
 controlled, and when many of their western connections were poor and 
 could not furnish the necessary equipment for accommodating the trade 
 that was tendered ; some of them were partially antagonistic to the Penn- 
 sylvania Railroad, and the Union Line took the intermediate position of . 
 joint agent of all the lines, and furnished cars extending over the various 
 western roads to the Mississippi and the Ohio ; but since it was estab- 
 lished in 1862, nearly all of such western roads have passed under the 
 control of the Pennsylvania Railroad, either by lease, purchase, or other- 
 wise, and there was uo longer the same occasion for such an inter- 
 mediary. 
 
 Q. What company runs on the Fort Wayne Road f 
 
 A. The same company. 
 
 Q. Then those lines are run by the Pennsylvania Company without an 
 intermediate company 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; they still maintain the organization, inasmuch as it is a 
 useful commercial organization. 
 
 Q. But still the ownership of the cars is in the company itself! 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; instead of paying a percentage as heretofore to the Union 
 Line organization, they pay the expenses of that organization — that is, 
 of the men, the salaries, &c. They employ them. 
 
 Q. In other words, they have substituted their own agents for an- 
 other company ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir; that is, without dismissing their own agents, they have 
 also employed the agents and personnel of the Union Line. 
 
 Q. Are you prepared to tell us to what extent the Pennsylvania Cen- 
 tral Railroad Company use the canals of Pennsylvania, and how much 
 is the tonnage of those canals ? 
 
 A. I could not give you any very accurate information on that point. 
 
 Q. We desire to ascertain from some one the extent to which the 
 Pennsylvania Central use water-transportation, and the cost. I will ask 
 you the same question I put to Mr. Hayes ; you see what I wish to arrive 
 at. I wish to get, if possible, the net cost over and above the interest 
 on bonds, &c, and capital employed, of running a ton of freight from 
 Chicago to New York, or from New York to Chicago. As near as you 
 can get at it, what would be the maximum cost .? 
 
 A. It depends almost entirely on quantity. 
 
 Q. You know the route very well between Chicago and New York, via 
 Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and Port Wayne, or, if you choose, you can 
 take it via the Philadelphia and Erie Road, and Lake Shore route. 
 Could you give us the net cost I 
 
 A. Do you mean the present net cost, what it now costs them with 
 ' the present business ? Is that y our idea % 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. That probably would be the better way, taking the 
 whole line through from Chicago to New York. 
 
 A. 1 could not answer you what it has cost on the Lake Shore Road, 
 because I have not seen their report for 1872. The cost on one road 
 per ton per mile is not a criterion of the cost on another road if the con- 
 ditions vary. 
 
 Q. Then you are not able to give the whole line ? 
 
 A. No, sir. I can tell you what it costs on the Philadelphia and Erie ; 
 it costs them on an average about nine-tenths of a cent per ton per mile, 
 I think a trifle under that. That was the actual operating cost, the en- 
 tire amount of money which they disbursed and charged to freight ex- 
 penses. It included 'the maintenance of track, the supply of the motive- 
 
32 TRANSPORT ATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 power, the repair of the cars, and all of the compensation of the men 
 engaged in moving the trains and in securing the business. 
 
 Q. What percentage of the aggregate receipts is the running expense 
 of the roadf , . n T nn , A , „ 
 
 A. It was in the neighborhood of 80 per cent., I think. 1 could tell 
 you accurately by reference to the report. That is not tar irom rignt. 
 
 Q. Then what would you say would be the net cost, including the in- 
 terest on capital invested, of carrying a ton a mile on the route trom 
 Chicago to New York as near as you can get at it I Or, it you preter 
 to, confine it to the Philadelphia and Erie route. 
 
 A. I should like to give you a little illustration to show how the cost 
 differs with different circumstances. I had occasion to investigate two 
 roads some three years ago, and to compare them. The one did a busi- 
 ness I think of some 400,000,000 of tons one mile in a year; the other 
 about 15,000,000, if I recollect right. The difference was very great. 
 The cost per ton per mile on the road that did the large business was 
 about one cent ; on the route- that did the small business it was about 
 5 T 8 a cents. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. What caused that difference, if you examined ? 
 
 A. The large amount of fixed expenses and the small amount of ton- 
 nage moved. Out of every hundred tons of engines, cars, and freight 
 moved over the smaller road, only 19 per cent, paid any money. I judge, 
 though I do not know, that the kind of lading was light and bulky, and 
 perhaps in very small quantities, while their fixed station expenses 
 were probably large. It was a road that ran into New York. The road 
 that did the large business — the Philadelphia and Beading — charged 
 the public, I think, about a cent and three-quarter cents per ton per 
 mile for doing the work. On the other it was 7^ cents, and I think 
 the Eeading made much the most money on its capital. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman: 
 
 Q. The Beading has a very favorable descending grade nearly all the 
 way? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but it is obliged to haul its coal-cars back without any 
 loading, so that its trains only average, counting the roand trip, half 
 loading. 
 
 Q. What is the aggregate tonnage of the Pennsylvania Central ? 
 
 A. About 8,000,000 tons — the main line. 
 
 Q. Assuming the tonnage from Chicago to New York by that route 
 is 5,000,000, can you form any opinion of the cost per ton per mile of 
 carrying that large business the thousand miles between Chicago and 
 New York 1 Have you the means to give what you are satisfied is an 
 estimate of the actual net cost ? 
 
 A. It would be but an estimate at the best, sir, and it would require 
 some considerable reference to statistics to give. The best criterion, I 
 think, is the actual charges for a term of years, that are about average 
 years. 
 
 Q. Actual charges or actual expenses t 
 
 A. The actual charges, with the actual net financial results to the 
 road. 
 
 Q. How can you learn the results when we do not know the amount 
 of capital actually in the road 1 
 
 A. I was thinking of the actual net profits; that is, the total amount 
 of net profits. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 33 
 
 By Mr. Conkling: 
 
 Q. I observe in enumerating the elements of cost which entered the 
 nine mills you spoke of furnishing motive power, wages, track and train 
 hands, and of maintaining the track. Did that nine mills also include 
 anything for the wear and tear of rolling-stock ? 
 
 A. I presume it did. The general idea is that rolling-stock ought to 
 be kept in substantially as good a condition at the end of the year as it 
 was at the beginning, but without knowing what the condition of the 
 stock was at the end and beginning of the year I could not say. 
 
 Q. But your understanding was that it included perpetual mainte- 
 nance of rolling-stock ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir ; substantially so. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Who of the gentlemen in connection with the Pennsylvania Rail- 
 road can tell us anything about the canal — water transportation 1 , 
 A. I think Mr. Kueass could, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Are the rates on your line regulated by the rates on the co-oper- 
 ative lines 1 
 
 A. They are all fixed at the same time and of the same amount. The 
 same parties, in most or many cases, fix the rates on both lines. For 
 instance, the Lake Shore Boad, over which we run west of Erie, on 
 freight originating out of Chicago which we take, fixes also the rates on 
 freight taken out of Chicago by the Red Line, which runs over the New 
 York Central, and fixes also the rates upon the South Shore Line, which 
 runs over the Erie Railway, or, in other words, the Lake Shore Road has 
 on its route all known kinds of fast freight lines ; that is, it has three 
 different co-operative lines, and ours, which is a separate institution. 
 The same general freight-agent always fixes the rates for all the lines 
 there, so far as we understand it, the same. 
 
 Q. I understood Mr. Hayes to say that the rates on his line were 
 regulated to some extent by the rates on the water line ? 
 
 A. I think the rates on the rail routes are regulated to a certain ex- 
 tent, at certain seasons, by the rates on the water line. 
 
 Q. Do you regulate your rates by his, or by the water line, independ- 
 ently of his ? 
 
 A. We do not regulate them at all. 
 
 Q. I mean the line over which you run. 
 
 A. The method of fixing is about this : The various freight represent- 
 atives of the different roads going eastward from Chicago usually fix 
 unitedly upon the rates which are to govern all shipments out of Chi- 
 cago by each of the lines, their own roads, and the lines running over 
 them. 
 
 Q. Does that include Mr. Hayes's line ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir ; and the Red Line and our line and any other line. We 
 would get our information from the general freight-agent of the Lake 
 Shore Road, and he from the general freight-agent of the Michigan Cen- 
 tral. Now, what governs that joint convention in determining the rates 
 which should rule on their respective roads is sometimes the competi- 
 tion of water routes, and sometimes other Considerations. At the pres- 
 ent moment the competition of water routes does not affect it at all. 
 The rates last week were higher by lake and rail through from Chicago 
 to New York than they were by all rail through from Chicago to New 
 York. That arose from the fact that the lake rates from Chicago to 
 3t 
 
34 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Buffalo depend upon the fluctuating demand for transportation. They 
 will sometimes not only vary day by day, but hourly through tne aay. 
 If there happens to be a large influx of vessels brought in by a iavor- 
 able wind the rates will go down, and the reverse will take place wnen 
 there is a reverse condition of things, and this action takes place in- 
 stantaneously, and ordinarily without any combination on tne part 01 
 the vessel-owners. Last week there was a sudden call for much trans- 
 portation, I suppose caused by some sudden foreign grain demand. 
 It was in excess of the capacity of the lake to furnish, and vessel-owners 
 rapidly advanced their prices from 6 to 15 cents a bushel. .Now, that, 
 added to the rail price east of Buffalo, or east of Erie, made a higher 
 rate than the current all-rail rate from Chicago at the same time, quite 
 considerably higher ; so that last week in adjusting the rail rates they 
 were not at all affected by the lake rates. But the probabilities are 
 that they (the rail rates) will be soon advanced, and because of the 
 demand which caused the just-described advance in the lake rates to 
 take place. # 
 
 Q. There was an advance in the rail rates last week, whs there not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; of 5 cents toward the close of the week ; but it took 
 place several days after this advance on the lake. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 Q. Why was that advance at that time ? 
 
 A. On account of the demand for transportation. The demand is 
 very large just now. 
 Q. Nothing else ? 
 A. I think not, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Such pressure occurring suddenly when freight by water goes 
 down, do you lower your rates accordingly ? 
 
 A. If it is a sudden spurt there is no change. Very often there is a 
 large rail demand and corresponding call for transportation by water. 
 
 Q. Then do your rates go up where there is a large rail demand '! 
 
 A. Yes, sir; it is a manufactured article, though a service, and is 
 produced by the consumption of labor and material, and its price is 
 regulated by supply and demand. 
 
 Q. Your rates, then, are pretty well regulated by supply and demand? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Oonkling : 
 
 Q. You hold a thing as worth just what it will bring ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. You are not regulated, then, by a percentage of profit upou your 
 investment ? 
 
 A. Practically we are. That is inevitable. 
 
 Q. But that is not standard with you. Of course you go in for the 
 profit— I understand that— but I mean to say, that is not the standard 
 by which you are governed 1 
 
 A. No, sir ; I do not think it is the standard by which the price of 
 transportation is governed any more than that by which the price of 
 any other manufacture is governed ; but it is substantially done, be- 
 cause, if the charges were unreasonably high, the large profits would ' 
 tempt the creation of new competitors, and reductions would follow. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 35 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. But as to railroad lines ; they would not build new railroads ! 
 
 A. There would be probably what would be as good for the public, a 
 great enlargement of the capacity of the present rail lines. By adding 
 two tracks to each double-track road now existing you can serve the 
 public cheaper than by building another double-track road, because you 
 can devote two tracks solely to freight, and save in various ways, but 
 especially in two ways. You save the delay to your freight trains, and 
 you thereby are enabled to move many more tons in a given time. 
 The more tons you move in a given time the less the cost per ton re- 
 quired to meet an interest on the outlay for the track and equipment. 
 
 Q. What are the other non-co-operative lines in the United States 
 beside yours ? 
 
 A. As I stated, there are a large number in Pennsylvania, which are 
 there by virtue of State legislation; they have always been there. 
 Some are very small, and some larger. 
 
 Q. Do they operate upon any of the great lines running east and 
 west? 
 
 A. They do not go beyond the borders of the State of Pennsylvania, 
 1 think, unless they may perhaps run into Maryland, on the Cumber- 
 land Valley Boad. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other non-co-operative lines in the United 
 States except those you have mentioned ? 
 
 A. No, sir. The Merchants' Dispatch, on the Central, I think, is a 
 co-operative line. I think there is an oil company, or, rather, a car 
 company, for the transportation of oils, which owns its own cars, and 
 gets an allowance from the Lake Shore and New York Central Boads for 
 car service. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. You heard Mr. Hayes's statement about the amount of tonnage in 
 the country ? 
 
 A. I did. ' 
 
 Q. Do you corroborate his statement ? 
 
 A. I heard him as he went along, and my impressions are th>t his 
 statements were correct. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Has the increase of tonnage upon other roads been about or any- 
 where near the equivalent of that on the Pennsylvania Central Kail- 
 road, -per annum 1 ? 
 
 A. I think so, substantially. 
 
 Q. Beading their reports I find that the average increase for the last 
 five years has been about 800,000 tons per annum. That is my recollec- 
 tion of it. Am I about right ? 
 
 A. I cannot give you the amount per annum, but I know they have 
 doubled about every four years in their tonnage. 
 
 Q. On the assumption that the increase is the same upon the other 
 roads, take the five leading roads to the east, the aggregate annual in- 
 crease would amount to four million tons per annum. That is about 
 equal to the entire tonnage of the Pennsylvania Central four years ago. 
 
 A. I think it was more than four millions four years ago. 
 
 Q. Five years ago it was four millions. Now if that increase is to 
 continue in the future the conclusion I draw — and I want to know 
 wherein it is defective — is this : That if you were to construct a new 
 double-track railroad every year with the capacity of the Pennsylvania 
 
36 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Central Bailroad five years ago, the additional business each yj^JJjJJ 
 give that new road a business equal to what the Pennsylvania Oentral 
 had five years ago. Am I wroDg or not 1 „j tv,p tnnnswnf 
 
 A. I think so, for this reason: If you have analyzed the ' tonna« , of 
 the Pennsylvania road, you will find that the bulk of its increase has 
 not been in what is technically called through-tonnage ; .tha ns, , tonnage 
 interchanged between widely-separated places m the West and .me Jiast 
 but in whit is known as local or short-movement tonnage. Now, that 
 tonnage is a matter of growth, and tolerably slow growth, and a new 
 road built through a new country would have to wait its time and gradu- 
 ally build up its local trade before it could reach anything like that 
 figure.. Through- tonnage does not increase at that rate. _ 
 
 Q The inference I draw from my position is this, that it will be in a 
 very few years impossible for the existing railroad lines to convey the 
 freight from the East and West. 
 
 A. This increase is not in the through-tonnage. 
 
 Q. There is a large increase of that, you know ? 
 
 A. O yes; but the bulk of the increase is in the local tonnage. Coal 
 is a very large item. The coal transportation of the Pennsylvania Eail- 
 road Company last year was three and a half millions, or very nearly 
 one-half of its entire tonnage. 
 
 Q. Do you think that increase has been regular upon all the roads for 
 the past few years ? 
 
 A. It has been very regular, but the bulk of the increase on all the 
 roads has been its local tonnage, which could not be transferred to a 
 througli-line. 
 
 Q. But I am looking to the overburdening of your own line ? 
 
 A. Two additional tracks on each of the four roads mentioned would 
 provide for the growth of the through-tonnage. There is not 4,000,000 
 tons increase on the Pennsylvania Road a year. 
 
 Q. Yes, but there is about 800,000 ; and I say, if you add two ad- 
 ditional tracks every five years to the Pennsylvania Central, you will 
 have at the end of that period as much freight for the new tracks as you 
 had five years ago for the other tracks, and that the same thing would 
 be substantially true of all the other roads ; so that, unless some more 
 liberal facilities for transportation are devised, it seems to me that the 
 present railroads will have to very much increase their tracks. 
 
 A. They do not seem to have anything like reached to the present ca- 
 pacity of their tracks. I think the Pennsylvania road has been increas- 
 ing, without increasing its track-room, about 25 per cent, a year. 
 
 Q. What do you estimate as the capacity of the Pennsylvania Cen- 
 tral as it now exists for moving freight eastward, or has your attention 
 been directed to that ? 
 
 A. It would be only an opinion. At the present time I know that its 
 limit is not found on the main line, on which the trains move, but at its 
 termini, where the discharging of the cars is clogged for the lack of dis- 
 charging facilities. It could move vastly more than it is moving now. 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 Q. Are your charges affected in any manner by the shortness of the 
 grain-crop in the West f Suppose there is a short crop, do you raise or 
 lower your rates ; or if there is a large crop, do you raise or lower your 
 rates 1 
 
 A. I suppose that, indirectly, they are affected by that, but it comes 
 in a different shape. It is affected by the demand for transportation: if 
 that is slack the rates have to be lowered. When the transportation 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 37 
 
 service cannot be sold at a good price it must be sold at some price, for 
 it is more expensive to lie idle than to do something. When the service 
 is in demand the prices go up. 
 
 Q. But if the crop is larger, charging the same rate, would you not 
 make a greater profit by the increase of the transportation '? 
 
 A. That would depend upon the degree of regularity with which it 
 would be served. 
 
 Q. The element of regularity did not enter into my question or your 
 answer a moment ago. I say if the crop is larger, by carrying a greater 
 amount of freight, do not you make a greater profit t 
 
 A. Other things being the same, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Why do you raise your rates of freight, then, when you have an 
 increased trade ? 
 
 A. Because the element of regularity comes in in this way. There 
 has been no season that I know of when the demand for transportation 
 has been equal to the supply throughout the whole year. There have 
 been certain seasons when it has fallen off, simply because there was 
 no demand East. It fell on the regular water-routes as well as on the 
 rail-routes, and during that time it has to be sold at less than cost. 
 When the demand becomes vigorous, as it will in the case of a large 
 crop, there must be an additional charge made in order to make a fair 
 average rate throughout the year. If I understand your question, that 
 is about the answer I wish to make. 
 
 Q. Then you put your answer on the ground of the irregularity of 
 transportation when the crop is larger % 
 
 A. I am not sure that I get your idea exactly. 
 
 Q. My question was simply this : Why is it, when the grain-crop is 
 larger, that your rates of transportation are increased, when, by reason 
 of the increased crop, your profit must be greater at the same rate than 
 when there is a small crop, all other things being equal. Now, I under- 
 stand your answer to be that, because of the irregularity of transporta- 
 tion, when there is a large crop, you have to charge a higher rate of 
 freight. 
 
 A. No, that is not exactly the idea I meant to convey. What I meant 
 was, that at no time in any year within my knowledge, whether the 
 crop was large or small, was there a regular demand for transportation 
 up to the amount that the various lines could supply. Even when the 
 crop was large cars lay idle at certain seasons, and because many laid idle 
 the service was performed at a loss. If there is to be a fair average 
 annual result to the transporter, then, when the demand again picks up, 
 there must be a sufficient increase of charges to make a good average 
 price. The average price for the whole year for the last five years 
 would not be an unfair price. 
 
 Q. Is it not true, in any ordinary business, that the larger amount of 
 goods a man sells the smaller profit he can afford to charge ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then, if you have your roads and your rolling-stock on your hands, 
 and your employes, the question I want you to answer is, why is it that 
 when you have got more freight to transport you increase your rates? 
 
 A. If you will allow me I will make an illustration. If a manufac- 
 turer was to lie idle for two months in the year, and then have a large 
 demand for his goods — up to the full capacity of his manufactory— he 
 could not supply the amount that he furnished during the time of the 
 year that he run so cheaply as he could have supplied them if he had a 
 steady demand throughout the entire year. There would be part of the 
 year when he would be fully taxed, but there was part of the year when 
 
38 TRANSPORT ATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 he would be idle, and if he intends to have a fair revenue *p<m the 
 capital invested in his factory he must get larger prices lor tne goous 
 he makes during the time that he runs than he would neeau ne naa a 
 demand sufficient to enable him to run steadily the whole ye ar rouno. 
 
 Q. Taking your illustration, it seems to me that where the crop would 
 be small, then you would cbarge a higher price. 
 
 A. But, unfortunately, nobody wants to transport when the crop is 
 small. The demand for transportation is much short 01 tne supply. 
 
 Q. Would not you want a higher price, in order to make your interest 
 on the capital invested. 
 
 A. If we could get it; but it is out of the question to get it. 
 
 Q. But the grain is there ; it has to be transported. 
 
 A. Then it would hardly be called a short crop, so far as the trans- 
 porter is concerned. . 
 
 Q. I do not mean a crop where there is no grain exported ; there is 
 wheat exported from the West. I mean new grain. Suppose it falls off 
 20 per cent, tbis year from what it was last year. Now, I understand 
 you that this year you will reduce your rates because the crop is less. 
 If next year it is 20 per cent, over what it was last year you will in- 
 crease your rates because there is more grain to be carried. 
 
 By Mr. Conexing : 
 
 Q. There being in both years, you mean, the same fluctuation of glut 
 and scant? 
 
 A. If I understand you to mean that the demand for transportation 
 is the same in each year, there would be no change in the rates. 
 
 By Mr. NORWOOD : 
 
 Q. Well, the demand, of course, cannot be the same each year, be- 
 cause my supposition is, that there is not the same amount of grain to 
 be carried each year; but you have the same capital invested, &c, and 
 have the same employes, and are to no more expense whether the crop 
 is short or large. Now, why is it if it is 20 per cent, greater one year 
 than another, you charge an increased rate of freight ? The irregular- 
 ity, now, that you speak of, is assumed to be the same in either year. 
 
 A. But still, in the one year the demand is not sufficient to employ 
 the transportation facilities offered, and in the other year it is more than 
 sufficient. Do I understand you correctly ? 
 
 Q. I did not understand your answer. 
 
 A. In the short crop year, if I understand you, the demand for trans- 
 portation is not equal to the amount of transportation facilities offered, 
 and in the next year the demand for transportation is in excess of the 
 transportation facilities offered. 
 
 Q. Oh, no, sir ; that is not my supposition, because you have stated, 
 and so has Mr. Hayes, already that you have got more transportation 
 now than would carry double the products of the West to the Atlantic 
 coast. 
 
 A. I did not understand you to ask me to affirm that part of Mr. 
 Hayes's statement. I thought you referred to the general statistics as 
 to the tonnage moved. Mr. Hayes has gone into that more thoroughly 
 than I have, and I could not say whether the amount of transportation 
 facilities which he there names is or is not correct. There are times, 
 however, as at the present time, when the amount of transportation 
 offering by rail and by lake and rail, is greater than the facilities offered 
 by rail and by lake and rail. But, in the very same year, there are 
 other times when the amount of transportation offering is very much 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 39 
 
 less than the facilities existing. For instance, in July and August we 
 had quantities of idle cars ; now we have a demand for more cars than 
 we have. What it may be a month hence nobody knows. It depends 
 very much on the foreign demand. I think that, taking the average 
 movement, there is now sufficient transportation facilities to move the 
 stuff that is to come East. There is always a large excess of unused 
 facilities going West. 
 
 Q. You think, then, that the transportation is equal to the product 
 coming East ? 
 
 A. Equal to the amount that wants to come East? Yes, sir ; I think 
 it has been so during this year. 
 
 Q. Now, then, if this year was a short year, short of your capacity 
 to transport, why would you charge less for it ? 
 
 A. Simply because we would not have customers for the service we 
 offer, and we have to tempt them by offering at less than cost. 
 
 Q. Then, when they tempt you, you charge them a higher rate ? 
 
 A. When they want more than we can furnish we do. We do just 
 as anybody else who manufactures anything. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. Is not the short truth of the whole matter that the yard-stick by 
 which you measure is not the cost of production, but how much the 
 commodity will bring"? 
 
 A. Substantially so, sir ; but, practically, the cost of production does 
 regulate the price, and the best illustration of that is, that there has 
 been a constantly diminishing average charge since the war closed. Now 
 it is scarcely half what it was then. 
 
 Q. That is true, you mean, generally and constructively and eventu- 
 ally, but, in point of fact, on any given occasion you regulate, do you 
 not, your tariff of freight by the compensation which, under the circum- 
 stances, you can get % 
 
 A. Well, that is measurably true, yet there are sometimes modifying 
 circumstances which any sagacious .transporter would always have 
 reference to. For instance, if he undertakes to tax a party manufactur- 
 ing on the line of his road unduly, because there happens to be a sudden 
 demand, he will dampen the business ardor of the party, and there 
 probably will be no increase in his manufacturing establishment. If he 
 pursues a careful, considerate course, and has in view the doctrine of 
 "live and let live" all the time, he will have a rapid and continuous 
 growth on the liue of his road, and that, I think, is the point at which 
 most roads have arrived. 
 
 Q. Then, if I understand you, this would be a fair inference, that the 
 law of supply and demand governs you, except that true economy and 
 conservatism leads you to avoid anything which you deem extortion. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is your proposition, is it not ? 
 
 A. This is the general idea stated a little more broadly, that the trans- 
 porter. wants to get a fair price, and he deems that a fair price which his 
 customer can afford, and the amount his customer can afford is that sum 
 which will not repress production. If the transporter charges so much 
 that' the party cannot work profitably, production will be repressed. 
 He must have reference to the profit of his customers. If he does not 
 he will soon have no trade of any account, or, at least his trade will not 
 grow. 
 
 Q. So that not meaning to reap advantage oppressively on the mis- 
 fortunes of the time and the producer, you do mean to avail yourselves. 
 
40 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 of all that the law of supply aud demand will give you iu return for the 
 transportation ? 
 A. That is precisely the idea, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Does not another element enter into it — the question of competi- 
 tion—whether you do not charge a much higher price for shorter dis- 
 tances frequently because you have no competition from those points % 
 
 A. That is done; that has been done to a greater extent than it is 
 now. I think where roads are managed by men who have been trained 
 to the business, and who have broad commercial ideas, they regulate 
 their rates as much by the competition of their customers' markets as 
 by the competition of rival transporting lines. For example, on the 
 Pennsylvania Eoad, at Johnstown, is, perhaps, the largest rail manu- 
 factory in Pennsylvania, and perhaps in the United States. It has 
 grown from a very small beginning. It cannot get a pound of raw ma- 
 terial in there (except that which is produced around its place) except 
 over the Pennsylvania Eoad. It cannot get a pound of its manufac- 
 tured product to market except by the Pennsylvania Eoad. So far as 
 power is concerned, that road can charge it any sum it pleases, but it 
 has encouraged its growth from a very trifling institution to a very large 
 one, by having constant reference to the competition of the markets this 
 party had to meet, as well as to the profits of the road itself, in the 
 transportation. And it is so with, I suppose, four hundred or five hun- 
 dred different enterprises along the same road — lumber enterprises, coal 
 enterprises, and a variety of iron enterprises — until that traffic on the line 
 of the Pennsylvaniai Eoad that is entirely beyond competition, except 
 competition of markets, is vastly greater than that which is known as 
 competitive traffic. 
 
 Q. Still, is it not true that railroads very often, almost as a rule, 
 charge more for nearer points, because there is no competition? • 
 
 A. I think it is more frequently the case on new roads managed by 
 parties inexperienced in the business. It has been so, to a large extent, 
 on the new roads in Illinois, there is no doubt of that. 
 
 Q. It is a great point of complaint that they make discrimination 
 against localities that have no competing lines. 
 
 A. Yes ; and it is an injudicious policy, and does harm to the road. 
 
 Q. Is not that, so far as your observation extends, one of the great 
 leading causes of complaint by the farmers themselves ? 
 
 A. I think that is the principal one. 
 
 Q. They complain that the price of freight to them to their nearest 
 market, a short distance, is greatly in excess of the long distances. 
 
 A. Tes, sir; I think it is their chief complaint, and a very sound one. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Do they not further complain that it takes about three bushels of 
 wheat to get one to market by rail "? 
 
 A. They have made a statement of that kind, which is rather attrac- 
 tive to the general mind, but if wheat is shipped from California to New 
 York, it would take many more bushels. 
 
 Q. I am not speaking of California; I mean out here in Illinois. 
 
 A. Yes, I understand that, sir. I think it is hardly a proper illustra- 
 tion. How many bushels it takes to get one to market depends on the 
 distance the producer is from the market. If the producer wants a cer- 
 tain service performed, he must pay somebody a fair price therefor or 
 do it himself. I have no doubt the statement is correct. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 41 
 
 By Mr. Davis: 
 
 Q. We are anxious to know the capacity of a double-track road. Mr. 
 Hayes, I think it was, gave us an idea that every half hour with a train 
 was its full capacity. Do you agree with that statement ? 
 
 A. ~No, sir. I have been in the habit of running freight trains five 
 minutes apart. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. Is that on a road running passenger trains, as well as freight? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; running five minutes apart, in the manner stated by Mr. 
 Davis, in convoy. I think I could run convoys on a freight road, so far 
 as the mere movement is concerned, in sections five minutes apart, if 
 no passenger trains interfered ; but an exclusively freight road 1 should 
 think entirely impracticable, that is, a purely freight road I do not think 
 could be sustained at all. 
 
 Q. Why t 
 
 A. The public along the line would have no other means of rail travel, 
 and they would certainly insist on being accommodated. 
 
 Q. Tou assume for your purpose that the theater of your freight road 
 that we are talking about is not occupied by any other road 1 
 ' A. 1[ es, sir. 
 
 Q. But if you had a freight road parallel ? 
 
 A. With a passenger road parallel it could be. But in the question of 
 capacity you must take into account the time required for repairs of 
 your track. There would have to be a certain time of each twenty-four 
 hours devoted to track repairs, when you could run no train over it. 
 As roads are now managed the trains are so regulated that there is a 
 considerable interval after a convoy runs, perhaps three or four hours. 
 
 Q. In other words, you group your trains in certain portions of the 
 twenty-four hours to leave certain intervals ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; for track repairs and passenger trains. 
 
 Q. In the case of a road in proper condition, properly ballasted and 
 in good condition, running freight trains over it at the rate of twelve 
 miles an hour, what portion of the twenty-four hours averaging the 
 year would be necessary to maintain that track and road-bed, floods or 
 extraordinary accidents excepted ! 
 
 A. That would be a mere matter of judgment. I should think at least 
 one-third of the time would be requisite. 
 
 Q. Throughout the year f * 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I should think so. Without going carefully into an ex- 
 amination it would be hard to form an accurate conclusion. 
 
 Q. That would include renewal of ties when they rotted or split, and 
 everything which concerned the road-bed, as well as the service ? 
 
 A. Yes,, sir; perfecting the drainage, ditching, and all that sort of 
 thing. 
 
 The committee here took a recess of fifteen minutes. 
 
 Mr. Potts (resuming) to Senator Sherman. You were speaking of 
 high local charges. They are made chiefly on roads that are not known 
 as through lines. They are made from a non-competitive point to what 
 is known as a competitive point ; for instance, from some local station 
 to Chicago, or to Peoria, or some local station to Bloomington, some 
 point where they strike a through line; but if you had a main line of 
 through road, and did not have the branches necessary to tap all these 
 points, your main line of road would, not interfere with this sort of 
 charges. 
 
42 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. That is not the point. Take one of these raain lines—one by way 
 of the Pennsylvania Central, Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne & Onicago— 
 doesn't it sometimes happen that they charge a higher price lor a lesser 
 distance on that main line 1 .... 
 
 A. I think not, sir; they have it as a policy, and Pthink it is an in- 
 variable policy, always to charge at least as small a rate to a near point 
 as to a farther one. Sometimes, if the competition between the trunk- 
 lines becomes very vigorous, and rates are away below cost, they do not 
 charge any less to a near point than they do to a far one, but I think 
 they never vary from the policy of never charging more. 
 
 Q. Then on other lines they sometimes charge for a very short dis- 
 tance a rate greatly in excess per mile to a long distance. I know that 
 is a common case. I have heard complaint very often made in Ohio 
 that a nearer point to the place of shipment sometimes has to pay a 
 higher rate even on main lines. Whether this has been true or not I 
 do not know. 
 
 A. That ought never to be, but a higher rate per mile in a short line 
 is necessary in order to do anything like justice to the transporter. 
 
 Q. Do you say that on these through lines they make it a point al- 
 ways to charge a less rate for a shorter distance? 
 
 A. I cannot speak for any other than the Pennsylvania Eoad, but I 
 know that that is their policy. For instance, if they were to charge 20 
 cents from here to Chicago, or one-third what it probably costs to move 
 the stuff, they would not charge more than 20 cents to Pittsburgh, 
 Harrisburgh, or any other intermediate point; that is their policy, and 
 I think it is invariable. There may be some accidental cases where it 
 is departed from. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Do I understand you that the tariff by the Pennsylvania Eoad to- 
 day is the same rate, for instance, to Johnstown, which you spoke of 
 just now, or any other point in that neighborhood, as it would be to 
 Pittsburgh 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is, it is no higher. 
 
 Q. How far do you go out on the road before you reach the through 
 rate? 
 
 A. That I cannot tell you. We do notfchave anything to do with the 
 local business of the road, at all. I merely speak from general knowl- 
 edge. Last week and week before there was a severe fall" in west-bound 
 rates, and while we were receiving instructions from the general agent 
 in regard to rates to Erie, Cleveland, &c, he remarked that he was 
 obliged to make his Pittsburgh rates, I think, 35 cents on first class, 
 because his rate to Cleveland was 36 or 37 cents, and it was their inva- 
 riable rule never to charge more to a near point than to a far one. He 
 further remarked that it carried their rates down back to, I think, Har- 
 risburgh, somewhere in that region. 
 
 Q. Then to Harrisburgh from Philadelphia it would be the same 
 charge as if to Pittsburgh 1 
 
 A. I am not sure as to the points, but the general idea is that where 
 there is great reduction in rates, that policy would carry the reduction 
 back to a very near point, but they do not charge more'to a near point 
 than they do to a distant point. 
 
 Q. Does your line ship goods to intermediate points? 
 
 A. No, sir, we are engaged in the securing and carrying of comneti 
 tive traffic only. r 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 43 
 
 Q. Then you could not answer as to the tariff matter of the road as 
 to short distances ? 
 A. No, sir, I merely know this to be their general policy. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman: 
 
 Q. I am rather surprised to hear you state that. I do not know per- 
 sonally about it ; but I have heard that matter made a complaint by 
 business men, that they are compelled to pay a higher freight for a 
 short distance. 
 
 A. I do not say that it is the invariable rule of all roads. I have no 
 doubt that it is so in some cases. 
 
 By Mr. Davis: 
 
 Q. However, you only know by what some one told you ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. A. J. Oassatt, general manager of the transportation department 
 of the Pennsylvania Central Bailroad, and Mr. Samuel G. Lewis, 
 comptroller of the Pennsylvania Bailroad Company, examined together. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. You had better explain the difference between the 
 Pennsylvania Company and the Pennsylvania Bailroad Company ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. The Pennsylvania Company controls the lines west of 
 Pittsburgh. The Pennsylvania Bailroad Company is the mother com- 
 pany, and has under its direct management the main line from Phila- 
 delphia to Pittsburgh, the road in New Jersey, and all other roads con- 
 trolled by the company east of Pittsburgh. 
 
 The Chairman. Does the Pennsylvania Company or the Pennylvania 
 Bailroad control the line from Philadelphia here? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt, The Pennsylvania Bailroad Company. 
 
 Mr. Windom. By the Pennsylvania Bailroad, then, you mean from 
 New York to Pittsburgh ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And all the balance is the Pennsylvania Company ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Yes, sir ; all the lines west of Pittsburgh are under 
 the management of the Pennsylvania Company, the Pennsylvania Bail- 
 road Company controlling the Pennsylvania Company by the owner- 
 ship of a large majority of the shares. The Pennsylvania Bailroad 
 Company leases the Philadelphia and Erie Bailroad ; not the Northern 
 Central. That is a separate company, but the Pennsylvania Bailroad 
 Company owns a controlling interest in the stock. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Cassatt, can you state the names and mileage 
 of the roads owned and controlled and operated by the Pennsylvania 
 Company ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. No, sir ; I cannot enumerate all the roads and their 
 branches from memory. We have a map which shows all those lines, 
 and shows how they are controlled and owned, which I can send you. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you one of those maps with you ?■ 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any steamboat or sailing-vessel lines owned 
 by either of those companies ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. The Pennsylvania Bailroad in leasing the lines in New 
 Jersey leases with it the Delaware and Baritan Canal. It also bought 
 the Pennsylvania Canal in purchasing the State works. 
 
 The Chairman. For what length of time is the lease of the Delaware 
 and Baritan Canal ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Nine hundred and ninety-nine years. Then, in con- 
 
44 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 nection with the Camden and Amboy road, we run steamboats between 
 Amboy and New York. We own no line of vessels on the laKes. 
 There is a line, the anchor line, running in connection with tlie Fhila- 
 delphia and Erie, and also to Buffalo. It touches at Erie. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that owned by the Company ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Independent entirely ? 
 • Mr. Cassatt. Tes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. But it has running-connection i 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you state the nature of that connection with 
 the vessels on the lakes f 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Simply by contract, under which we have a through 
 freight arrangement with them as to division of the rates. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that a permanent contract for a number of years ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. This contract, as well as nearly all the contracts we 
 make, are terminable upon one year's notice. I forgot to mention that 
 the Pennsylvania Eailroad Company is interested in a steamship-line 
 from Philadelphia to Liverpool. It has a large interest in it. 
 
 The Chairman. The arrangement between your Company and the 
 steamboat lines on the lakes is simply a running-arrangement then, pro 
 rata freights 1 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. How is the compensation between the two appor- 
 tioned '? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. They receive the best compensation they can get on the 
 lakes, and the railroad carries it for the regular pro rata rail-rates from 
 Buffalo or other points. 
 
 The Chairman. The steamers of that line, then, receive all of the 
 lake compensation? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. They compete with other lines, getting the best price 
 they can ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. "When were those canals purchased- by the railroad 
 company "? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. When they purchased the line of railroad from Colum- 
 bia to Philadelphia, belonging to the State. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you remember in what year that was? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. It was in 1857, 1 think 1 ? 
 
 The Chairman. Has the Pennsylvania Eailroad Company expended 
 any considerable amount of money in improving and enlarging that 
 canal ! 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Yes, sir : they spent a good deal of money on it. 
 
 The Chairman. How will the rates of freight on that canal compare 
 with the railroad freights ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. The canal is simply operated as a toll-highway. 
 
 The CnAiRMAN. The company receive tolls? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Yes, sir; there is no through business done on the 
 canal at all ; it does not extend further west than Huntingdon ■ it is 
 operated in connection with the road; it is known as the Pennsvl'vania 
 Canal. J 
 
 The Chairman. What is its length ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. It extends from Huntingdon to Columbia, about one 
 hundred and fifty miles, and then from Wilkesbarre to Northumberland, 
 
TEAXSPOBTATIOX TO THE SEABOARD. 45 
 
 Lockhaven to . and there they join the other canal at Dun- 
 cannon. 
 
 The Chaiemax. Can yon give us the name of some person who will 
 furnish us the rates of freight ! 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Gen. I. J. Wistar is president of the canal, which is 
 ox>erated as a separate company entirely. 
 
 The Chaikjiax. You stated both the railroad of which you speak and 
 the canal were purchased at the same time i 
 
 3Ir. Cassatt. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chaieman*. And the other canal was leased with the ~Sev? Jersey 
 road? 
 
 Mi. Cassatt. Yes. sir. 
 
 The Chaie3Ia>". What have you to say with reference to the differ- 
 ential and discriminating freight-charges which have been discussed 
 here as to the rule adopted by your road ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Mr. Potts stated the role correctly, viz, that we never 
 charge more to a nearer than to a more distant point. That is an inva- 
 riable rule. 
 
 Ibe CHAIE3IAS. But you sometimes charge as mnch to a nearer point 
 as you do to a distant point. 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Cosklecg. Do yon embrace in that answer all this connection of 
 roads, the Penn svlvania Bailroad Company and the Pennsylvania Com- 
 pany ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Yes, sir; I know it is the rule on the Pennsylvania 
 Company's roads. 
 
 Mr. CoxKLixa. What are the considerations on which those discrimi- 
 nating charges are made, where yon charge, for instance, as mnch for 
 half the distance as yon do for the whole ? Upon what economic consid- 
 erations do yon base such discrimination ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. We think, in the first place, that the local rates named 
 are reasonable and just about such as we can afford to carry for. 
 Through rates are governed by competition. If we want to remain in 
 the market we have got to take what we can get. That forces ns below 
 paying rates sometimes. If we put the local rates down to the same 
 charge per ton per mile, the road could not live. Another reason is. 
 yon can afford to carry cheaper for a long than a short distance always. 
 
 Mr. Coxkltn'G. Why ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Because yon have certain fixed terminal expenses which 
 are less per mile on long than on short distances ; that is the principal 
 reason ; of course there are some others ; for instance, you can get more 
 service out of your cars on long runs. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What are your rates to-day to Pittsburgh ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. I think they are about 35 cents on first-class freight 
 from ZSTew York to Pittsburgh. 
 
 Mr. Lewis. They fluctuate, and they are changing very rapidly now. 
 It is pretty hard to keep the run of them. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What would freight be from hereto Huntington to-day if 
 it was offered ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. That would be the same as Pittsburgh. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Either place would be the same ! 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do you change your tariff ! You have a published rate 
 of tariff ', 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir. 
 
46 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do you change it every time you change your through 
 rates? . t . 
 
 Mr. Lewis. We give notice to the agents what the tnr0U S a r ^° ls > 
 and the agents are then instructed that the rate must not De exceeaeu 
 to any point this side of Pittsburgh. 
 
 Mr. Davis. How long has that been the case 1 
 
 Mr. Lewis. That has always been the case. . 
 
 Mr. Davis. Does the same rule apply to your way-stations '. .tor in- 
 stance, a man at Harrisburgh brings you freight to carry two hundred 
 miles on vour road; would you charge the regular local rate tor that two 
 hundred miles, or a hundred miles, as the case may be ! 
 
 Mr. Lewis. It would not exceed the through rate. 
 
 Mr. Davis. TheD, I understand you, no charge exceeds the through 
 rate ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Bo, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. But you vary as you vary the through rate, if it is every 
 day ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir ; sometimes we send out a notice in the morning 
 and another in the evening. 
 
 Mr. Davis. To all the agents along the line of the road ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Upon what principle do you base that rule 1 ? If the 
 charges to-day at a local way-station are not more than they should be, 
 why do you reduce them when the through charge is reduced ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. We think it is not fair to the near freight that tbey 
 should be charged more than the through freight, and we have to suffer, 
 they getting the benefit of it. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it not as fair as to charge them as much ! 
 
 Mr. Lewis. No, we think not. The article will bear a certain amount 
 of transportation charges. 
 
 The Chairman. What article do you speak of when you speak of those 
 which will bear a certain amount of transportation charges'? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Ordinarily heavy freights. 
 
 Mr. CoNKLiNft. Such as what ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. For local business, coal and iron. Through business 
 would be meats and grain and corn. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Does your coal tariff change as often as you speak of? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. No, the coal tariff does not change very often, of course. 
 That was not with regard to charges, but with regard to the principle of 
 charging the same for local as through. We divide coal into regions. 
 We do notmake amanwho has a coal-mine within five miles farther than 
 another man, pay, in consequence, ten or fifteen cents more a ton than 
 the man who lives five miles nearer market. If we did we would rule 
 him out of market when the coal was selling low. 
 
 Mr. Davis. I understood you to say that if you changed your through 
 rate to Pittsburgh or Chicago each day, you would change your local 
 rates as often ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Now yon have a local rate for coal. Have you changed 
 it since the season commenced ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Fortunately or unfortunately, the price of coal rules so 
 low that the price we get on that is in no danger of being touched by 
 any rates. It is carried down to a very slight profit, if any. 
 
 The Chairman. What are your charges on coal % 
 
 Mr. Lewis. They vary from a cent to a cent and a quarter a ton a 
 mile. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOAED. 47 
 
 Mr. DAVIS. But I understood you 2 cents was your charge on through 
 rate now — fourth-class rates ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Fourth-class rates are 22 cents a hundred pounds, or $4 
 a ton to Pittsburgh. 
 
 Mr. Davis. How much is coal a ton from Westmoreland mines or any 
 of those mines out there 1 
 
 Mr. Lewis. I do not remember the exact rate. It is all carried in 
 their own cars and we give them a rate in their cars, amounting to about 
 a cent a ton a mile. It is not a very high fraction on either side. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Suppose you furnished the cars, what would it be to-day ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. If wefurnished the cars it would be about a cent and two- 
 tenths. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What would that be a ton to this place ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. It would be about $5 a ton, 25 cents a hundred. 
 
 Mr. Davis. That would be $5 a ton from Westmoreland and your 
 freight would be 22 cents a hundred 1 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. We are speaking of west bound. 
 
 Mr. Lewis. We do not always have the same rates each way. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What is your east bound rate to-day? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. I do not remember that. I suppose about 40 cents. 
 
 Mr. Davis. From where ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Pittsburgh. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Then you have the same from Pittsburgh you do from 
 Chicago, do you ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. No, I do not remember what the rates are. I do not 
 carry the rates in my head. 
 
 The Chairman. The rates from Chicago are 50 cents a hundred ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. They would not be exceeded from Pittsburgh, then. They 
 are lower, I think; fourth-class is considerably lower. Our fourth-class 
 tariff rate from Pittsburgh would be about 36 cents. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do you usually haul westward cheaper than you do east- 
 ward? You say it is 22 cents westward and 50 cents eastward — twice 
 and a half as much eastward as westward. Is that common or usual? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Is there a cause for that at present ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. The competition for trade. 
 
 The Chairman. It is cheaper going west than coming east? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. It is just now. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it usually so ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. No, sir ; it is usually about the same. 
 
 The Chairman. What, in your judgment, is the effect upon freight 
 charges of the consolidations of railroads such as have been made by 
 the Pennsylvania Central Eoad % 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. I can only judge by results. Bates have been tending 
 steadily down since the leading railroads have adopted the policy of 
 extending their lines. 
 
 The Chairman. When was that policy adopted ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. It was adopted pretty generally four or five years ago 
 
 The Chairman. Has the reduction in rates been greater since thaJ 
 time than the fall in gold ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. I think it has ; that is to say, the average reduction. 
 
 The Chairman. I have a table here furnished by one of your agents 
 at Chicago, and I had not the gold table, and I did not know what the 
 answer would be. I find, for instance, that in September, 1865, the 
 price of freight from Chicago to New York per bushel of wheat was 48 
 
48 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 cents; to-day it is 27 cents. I doubted whether the fall in P rice wa » 
 greater than the improvement in currency. „ , , , 
 
 Mr. Oassatt. That is a fall in the rates of nearly a halt, miq nas 
 not fallen as much as that. , ^ . „ ., TOQO 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Gold went down to about 1.30 just: aft er the wi ar was 
 over, but then it rose up to 1.40 odd. In 1869 gold had risen to some- 
 
 ^The^HAffiMAN. You think the effect of the consolidations is to reduce 
 
 PP Mr S Gassatt. I do not know that this would necessarily be the effect, 
 but that has actually been the result. That is, prices have fallen since 
 the consolidations. ,., ,. • , , ... 
 
 The Chairman. Do any of these consolidations include competing 
 
 lines '? , . . 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. They may locally, but not through. Most of these 
 roads were consolidated to form stronger through-lines from the West. 
 
 The Chairman. What, in your judgment, is the relative economy of 
 the present system of railroad transportation and of an exclusively 
 freight railroad? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. I think if such a thing could be as an exclusively freight 
 railroad, it could be operated cheaper thaji a road on which a miscella- 
 neous business was done, especially if you did a business of one kind 
 and ran all trains at uniform speed. 
 
 The Chairman. How frequently could trains be run, in your judg- 
 ment, upon an exclusively freight railroad ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. I do not think you could run them closer than every fif- 
 teen minutes, on an average, throughout the 24 hours. We run our 
 freight trains in sections, with five minutes between each train ; that is to 
 say, we run from six to twelve trains, or sections, as we call them, on one 
 schedule, but I do not think you could run trains closer, on an average, 
 in twenty-four hours than fifteen minutes apart, in each direction, on a 
 double-track road, because if you did the slightest detention here or there 
 would block everything back ; you must make allowances for necessary 
 delays and detentions. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you not have to make an allowance for time 
 to repair your track ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. That would be included in the fifteen minutes. I think 
 you could run about one hundred trains a day, in each direction. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think that terminal facilities could be had 
 that would enable you to discharge them as frequently as that. 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. That is simply a question of expense. Tou would have 
 to' divide your business; have one place for discharging grain, one for 
 coal, &c, switching each class of traffic off at separate places. 
 
 The Chairman. What, in your judgment, is the most profitable 
 speed for freight trains ? I include in that the damage done to the road, 
 and the rolling-stock, and every other condideration. 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Of course, the slower yourun, withinlimits, the cheaper 
 it is. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, you could run your trains cheaper, but could 
 you transport produce cheaper running five miles an hour than eight I 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. I think that is getting down a little too slow. I think 
 you could run cheaper at eight than at fifteen. 
 
 The Chairman. Would not eight be more economical than five ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. I do not think it would. I think that a running speed 
 of eight miles an hour is about as slow as you want to run. ' 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 49 
 
 Mr. Windom. You think it would be more economical than to run at 
 eight miles an hour ? 
 
 Mr. Cass att. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. There would be more profit in carrying at the rate of 
 fire than five ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. I think so. 
 
 The Chairman. What would you fix it at? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. I should say that the most economical speed, all things 
 considered, would be a schedule speed of eight miles au hour, with a 
 maximum speed of ten miles per hour. The only difficulty about such 
 slow speed would be that you would get less service out of your rolling- 
 stock, but, at the same time, if you kept everything moving promptly, 
 you would probably get as much service out of it as at present. The 
 great point is to keep everything moving, avoiding detentions at the 
 termini of divisions ; if you do this, you will find that you will make 
 good time, even if the actual running-time is slow. 
 
 The Chairman. What is your average time between Chicago and 
 New York for freight? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Our average running is about ninety hours. I think 
 that is about it. 
 
 The Chairman. Are freights that are started from Chicago usually 
 delivered in ninety hours in New York ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. No, I do not think they would average that. That is the 
 schedule speed ; but you must make allowance for detention. Some of 
 our trains run faster. The fast merchandise trains do, but the regular 
 speed is about ninety hours. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you find, in practically operating your road, there 
 is any great loss from trains being compelled to lie over and wait for 
 passenger trains ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. No, sir ; there is not very much loss. If we ran all our 
 freights at the same rate of speed, and only run one class of freight- 
 trains, passenger-trains would interfere with them very little, except at 
 the terminal points, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, and there, if we had 
 four tracks for fifteen or twenty miles, there would be very Kttle interfer- 
 ence. 
 
 The Chairman. So that now, in your judgment, you can transport 
 about as cheaply as you could if running exclusively a freight railroad ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Well, not so cheaply, but I do not think the difference 
 would be very great. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the actual cost, as near as you can estimate 
 it, per ton per mile over your road ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. It is about 8 mills, taking the average of business. 
 
 The Chairman. What do you include in that cost ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. The whole cost, everything ; everything chargeable 
 to freight business. In making up that estimate, it is a little difficult 
 to get at it, because there are some classes of expenditures that are not 
 divided directly between passenger and freight expense. For instance, 
 you have to make an estimate of how much is chargeable of track ex 
 penditure, to freight and to passenger business. 
 
 The Chairman. About in what proportion do you charge ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. About in the proportion of the mileage made by freight 
 and by passenger trains, say 25 per cent, and 75 per cent, to freight ex- 
 penses. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the mileage of the passenger-trains, about 
 one-fourth of the freight-trains? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Yes, sir. 
 4 T 
 
50 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 The Chairman. Is not the damage done to the track much greater 
 by a fast-running train than a slow one I n 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. There is a difference of opinion about that, un a pas- 
 senger-train you have better trucks, the engines are somewnat ngnter 
 generally, and the train is shorter; there are fewer carsm it. vt course, 
 if you get up to a very high speed, the damage would be somewhat 
 greater. . . 
 
 The Chairman. In the judgment of your company, then, the injury 
 to a road from a passenger-train is about the same per mile ". 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. We have assumed that in dividing the expenses. That 
 is what we make our calculation on. 
 
 Mr. Conexing. And that calculation includes twelve-wheel cars % 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. All kinds of cars. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the life-time, so to speak, of a passenger- 
 locomotive "? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. We think that the life-time of locomotives for passen- 
 ger or freight is about ten years, taking the average. 
 
 The Chairman. About alike ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Yes, sir. We think that, unless we replace about 10 
 per cent, of our locomotives annually, we are not keeping up to the 
 standard. 
 
 The Chairman. What is true as to passenger- cars and freight-cars ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. I do not know that I could answer that. We examine 
 them as they come into the shop. When an old and worn-out car is 
 shopped it is a question of cutting up or repairing. If we cut them up 
 we build anew car, and charge its cost to operating expenses. 
 
 The Chairman. But you have kept no account to know what the 
 percentage is ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. So, sir, I could not tell you that. I suppose, though, 
 that passenger-cars would last fully ten years, with renewals placed on 
 them. 
 
 The Chairman. And freight-cars probably as long? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Yes, sir, I think so, but that is a mere guess. 
 
 The Chairman. What proportion of the entire expenditure included 
 in this item of cost is the maintenance of road ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. About 25 per cent. 
 
 The Chairman. About 25 per cent, of the entire expenditures ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You do not include in the 25 per cent, the mainte- 
 nance of cars? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. So, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know about what percentage that is ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. That is about 10 or 12, I think. About 10 per cent. I 
 find by examination of the report of the company for 1872. 
 
 The Chairman. What are the items of expenditure as you would 
 classify them 1 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. We divide our expenses into five principal headings- 
 conducting transportation, motive-power, maintenance of cars, and 
 maintenance of way, and general expenses. Conducting transportation 
 includes cost of stations, conductors, brakesmen, agencies, stationery 
 &c. Motive-power includes all expenses connected with the running 
 of locomotives, repair, fuel, oil-waste, tallow, engineers and firemen 
 &c. Maintenance of cars includes repair of cars. Maintenance of way 
 includes all expenses for repairing the road-way, bridges &c 
 
 The Chairman. Can you state about what is the expense of running 
 one of your ordinary passenger-trains per mile ? I mean now the actual 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 51 
 
 running, leaving out repairs of tracks, and repairs of cars, and interest 
 on investment. I include in this question simply this, the fuel, labor, 
 repairs of locomotives, and the station expenses. If there are any- 
 other included in the running, you can name them. 
 
 Mr. Oassatt. Not including the track % 
 
 The Chairman. Not including the track. 
 
 Mr. Oassatt. I have never worked out the cost in that way, from the 
 data in our annual report it can be easily arrived at. I have, however, 
 figured out the cost of running a passenger- train, including all expenses, 
 either direct or indirect, and make it about ODe dollar per mile. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know what the fuel expense of running a 
 passenger-train is? 
 
 Mr. Oassatt. We use about forty pounds of coal to the mile, and the 
 coal costs us about $2 a ton on the locomotive, without charging our- 
 selves anything for transporting it. That would be 4 cents a mile for 
 fuel. This applies only to the main liue of the Pennsylvania Railroad. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there not statements made by some officer of 
 all railroads, all leading railroads at least, itemizing all these expenses 
 of running trains, the fuel, waste, labor, &c. 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Yes, sir ; we give it in gross, and you only have to 
 divide the passenger mileage into it to get it. 
 
 The Chairman. Wherein does the expense of running a passenger- 
 train exceed that of running a common freight-train i 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. In that you have more expensive cars. 
 
 The Chairman. That is interest on the cars ! 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Yes, sir, and the cost of repairing them, of course, 
 which is, to a great extent, proportionate to their cost. 
 
 The Chairman. But I mean the actual running. The train ready to 
 pass over without counting repairs of cars. 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Without counting repairs of track ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes, sir ; you say repair of track is assumed to he 
 the same. 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Then the difference in the cost of running a passenger- 
 train and a freight-train is simply in the fuel, and probably in the num- 
 ber of train men employed. 
 
 The Chairman. It only costs 4 cents a mile for fuel for passenger- 
 trains ; what would you say for a freight-train ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. About 50 per cent. more. Our average consumption of 
 fuel on freight-trains is about sixty-five pounds a mile. 
 
 The Chairman. It would be more expensive then, so far as fuel is 
 concerned, to run the freight than passenger trains. 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Yes, sir ; that is about the only increased expense, if 
 you include only the actual cost of running the train, excluding repairs 
 of cars. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Your men are more expensive on passenger-trains than on 
 freight ; are they not ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. No, sir; very little more. The conductors are paid a 
 little more, but the engineers are paid little less on a passenger train 
 for the same distance, because they do the work so much more easily 
 and quickly. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Is your fuel exclusively of coal ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any knowledge of the relative economy oi 
 transporting by rail and water If 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. No, sir, I have hot. 
 
 The Chairman. Or of the relative cost of each ? 
 
52 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. No, sir; I have no personal knowledge of water trans- 
 
 P °The tl CHAiRMAN. Your company is constructing a new freight line of 
 road, is it not '? 
 
 JVTr 0_a_ssatt Ygs sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What are the termini of that ^ne? . , v . 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. It starts from Driftwood, on the PWadelphia and Erie, 
 and runs to Eedbank. It makes a low-grade line from Pittsburgh to 
 Harrisburgh. 
 
 The Chairman. What will be the grades ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. I think the maximum grade is 16 feet per mile against 
 the east-bound tonnage. _, . _ , . 
 
 The Chairman. What is it on the present Pennsylvania BoadT 
 
 Mr Cassatt We have there 52 feet against east-bound traffic and 
 96 against west-bound. The maximum grade west bound on the "low- 
 grade line" is about 26 feet. 
 
 The Chairman. What will be the increase of the distance by that 
 line from Pittsburgh to New York ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. That depends on whether we take the freight around 
 bv Philadelphia or not. 
 
 * The Chairman. By the route you would adopt will the distance be 
 increased or diminished % 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. It will be about ninety miles further by Philadelphia. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What is your average passenger and average tonnage; 
 the number of cars hauled by your locomotives? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. I suppose we run about an average of six or seven 
 passenger-cars to the train. On freight-trains probably twenty-seven 
 or twenty-eight, taking an average of all trains, and of all parts of the 
 road. 
 
 The Chairman. What are the average charges per ton on your road? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. One and four-tenths of a cent it was last year. 
 
 The Chairman. That included all tonnage moved, the local as well 
 as the through. 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Which is cheaper — the through or the local ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. The average of the through would be less than the 
 local ? 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know what is the average charge of your 
 through tonnage from the West through the year ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. It is a slight fraction over a cent, but I do not remember 
 exactly what. 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. There is a large portion of our local tonnage we carry 
 at that rate. All the coal business is done at about that rate. 
 
 The Chairman. Can either of you gentlemen state the cost of the 
 Pennsylvania road as it now stands ; the actual cost in money ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Not without looking at the report. 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. I can tell you how much was charged against it, but 
 that does not represent the cost. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not understand the mode of keeping the account, 
 but I want to ascertain. 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. The cost of the road between Philadelphia and Pitts- 
 burgh, including the equipment in all the shops, stations, and so on, 
 stand on the books of the Company at $42,437,859.68. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the distance ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Three hundred and fifty-five miles. 
 
 The Chairman. It stands on the books, you say ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 53 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. That is, charged against capital account on the books, 
 but of course there has been a great deal more money spent on it than 
 that. The road is worth more than that to day, and it has cost more. 
 
 The Chairman. Why does it not stand on the books ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Because the road has been improved out of the earn- 
 ings. Track-bridges, rolling stock, &c, have been greatly improved. 
 
 The Chairman. Is not that charged up to capital account ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. No, sir ; not all. 
 
 The Chairman. How is that charged ; to maintenance f 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. We charge a portion of that to capital account, but for 
 years past a great deal of construction work was done, and paid for out 
 of earnings and charged to expense account. 
 
 The Chairman. What was the original issue of stock, if your report 
 gives it f 
 
 Mr. Lewis. The original issue of stock authorized was $10,000,000. 
 
 The Chairman. What amount of bonds originally ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. The original stock of $10,000,000 authorized, was for the 
 construction of the road from Harrisburgh to Pittsburgh. 
 
 The original or first issue of bonds was for $5,000,000. The next or 
 second issue of bonds was also for $5,000,000, and covered what was 
 then the Pennsylvania Eailroad Company, namely, from Harrisburgh to 
 Pittsburgh. The Pennsylvania Eailroad Company purchased from the 
 State of Pennsylvania what was known as the Main Line of Public 
 Works, namely, the Pennsylvania Canal from Pittsburgh to Johnson, 
 the inclined planes and railway over the Alleghany Mountains to Hol- 
 lidaysburg, and the canal thence to Columbia, in Lancaster County, 
 and the railway from Columbia to Philadelphia, for the price of $7,000,000, 
 which sum was a lien upon the said public works only, and payable in 
 annual installments of $460,000, bearing 5 per cent, interest. On the 1st 
 July, 1867, the company executed the general mortgage for $35,000,000, 
 covering its entire line of railroad from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia, and 
 out of the $35,000,000 there was set apart the sum of $16,329,457.98 to pay 
 the following sums : First mortgage, $9,800,000 ; second mortgage, 
 $4,904,000 ; amount due the State, $6,444,617.98. The actual bonded in- 
 debtedness, December 31, 1872, is $35,000,000, and by the treasurer's 
 report on same date, the capital stock was $35,000,000. 
 
 The Chairman. It is now from Philadelphia 1 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir ; by buying the State works, and leasing the Har- 
 risburgh and Lancaster Eailroad. 
 
 The Chairman. I understood Mr. Cassatt to say a moment ago that 
 the amount charged to capital was $42,000,000. I understand you now 
 to say $53,000,000? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. No, sir ; the amount charged on the books of the com- 
 pany against the cost of constructing the road and equipment is 
 $42,000,000, while the capital stock, July 1, 1873, is $53,000,000, and 
 the bonds $35,000,000. That is $88,000,000 in all. The remainder, 
 $46,000,000, is invested in various ways. 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Page 41 of our report shows that, and shows how this 
 surplus is invested in the bonds and stock of other companies controlled 
 by the Pennsylvania Eailroad. 
 
 The Chairman. How many issues of stock have there been of that 
 road and when were they made f 
 
 Mr. Lewis. There have been nine issues of capital stock under as 
 many acts of the legislature of Pennsylvania. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any means of stating accurately the 
 
54 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 amounts received for each and all of those issues of stock by the com- 
 pany, and expended in the road ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. It is all recorded on the treasurer's books. 
 
 The Chairman. You have access to those and charge ot tneni, mue 
 you not? ,ii i i 
 
 Mr. Lewis. No, sir; I have not charge of the treasurer s books, but 
 
 the list is as follows : 
 
 / 
 
 Issue under actAprill3, 1846 $ a' nnn' nnn Z 
 
 Issue under act April 23, 1852 i nnn' nnn nn 
 
 Issue under act May 6, 1852 \ >"""• """ "" 
 
 Issue under act March 23, 1853 J?'? "» 
 
 Issue under act May 2, 1855 isnnnnnn on 
 
 Issue uuder act March 22, 1867 ,~'™n'~, ™ 
 
 Issue under act December 29, 1869 17, ?™'n£2 ™ 
 
 Issue under act March 8,1871 SSS'ISX ™ 
 
 Issue under act March 8, 1871 3o0, 000 00 
 
 53, 350, 000 00 
 Not yet issued 78, 062 50 
 
 Capital account, January 1,1873 53,271,937 50 
 
 The Chairman. Without attempting to conceal the idea I am coming 
 at, has there ever been any stock issued by your road, and, if so, how 
 much, for which the face par value has not been paid 1 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Every share of stock has been fully paid for in cash. 
 There was a dividend made in 1864 of $4,130,760 out of surplus earn- 
 ings (profits) payable in capital stock, equal to 30 per cent, on the 
 then outstanding capital of $13,769,200. These surplus profits were 
 from the previous accumulations of the company, and were represented 
 by actual investments in good securities in the hands of the treasurer, 
 and the profit and loss account was by this dividend debited with a cor- 
 responding amount of capital stock. 
 
 The Chairman. A portion of the money came from bonds ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. If you mean to pay this divided, no, sir ; it all came from 
 net earnings of the road. 
 
 The Chairman. And that was distributed as a dividend among the 
 stockholders ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have there ever been any other issues of that 
 kind f 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir. Out of surplus earnings there was one in 1867 
 of $1,000,000, being 5 per cent, on the capital stock of that date, and 
 again in 1868 of $1,051,937.50, being 5 per cent, on the capital stock of 
 that date, but all the other issues of stock have been regularly sub- 
 scribed and paid for by the subscribers therefor. At same dates there 
 were cash dividends of 3 per cent. 
 
 The Chairman. The capital stock is now how much ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. On the 1st of January it was $53,000,000. 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Since that there has been an issue of stock at the par 
 value of $50 per share to the stockholders. 
 
 The Chairman. Sold to the stockholders for the purpose of making 
 other investments with ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir, and paid for in cash, to increase and improve 
 the property and equipment of the company. 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. An analysis of this report, which I hand you, shows 
 that there is no water in the stock. I think an examination of the state- 
 ment on page 41 will show that very clearly ■ the road and equipment 
 has cost very much more than is charged against it, and is worth to-day 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 55 
 
 double the amount charged against it. A very brief examination of the 
 company's property will convince any one conversant with railroad 
 management of the correctness of this statement. 
 
 Mr. Lewis. I will state that at the time the $4,130,760 of surplus 
 profits was distributed in stock, it was largely on account of very heavy 
 pressure brought to bear by the stockholders, who thought that, as the 
 road earned moDey, they should have some benefit from it. The Hne of 
 argument they used was, that " we do not care if your road would sell 
 for $50,000,000 while it only cost $25,000,000 ; that is no benefit to us ; 
 we want to sell now ; we want to realize now." The direction of the 
 company gave way to it just that much as to issue that amount. 
 
 The Chairman. Were those surplus earnings, over and above a cer- 
 tain percentage, divided among the stockholders and paid to the 
 owners 1 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Tes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What was that 1 
 
 Mr. Lewis. The usual dividends of the company have been 10 per 
 cent, since November, 1868 ; prior to which they varied from 6 to 8 per 
 cent, annually. They passed one dividend, I think, in November, 1857. 
 The railroad during its construction, and until it was opened continu- 
 ously from Harrisburgh to Pittsburgh, earned net revenues equal to 6 
 X>er cent. On its completion between these points as a single-track line, 
 a balance was struck between the revenues and expenses, and then ap- 
 peared a credit which was applied to the reduction of the cost of the 
 roadway, in accordance with the terms of the charter of the company. 
 If there had been a loss, they (the directors) were authorized to charge 
 the deficiency to construction, so that the line when opened for use 
 might start even. 
 
 The Chairman. When was that 30 per cent, issue 1 
 
 Mr. Lewis. In the year 1864. 
 
 The Chairman. What property has been purchased with this addi- 
 tional issue of stock and bonds over and above the $42,000,000 % 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. There are $46,000,000 of property owned by the com- 
 pany, paid for out of the money realized from bonds and stock which 
 have been issued. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the property purchased by the company for 
 that $46,000,000 ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. In answer I submit here a statement of the treasurer's ac- 
 count to January 1, 1873, as submitted to the stockholders at their an- 
 nual meeting, held March 11, 1873, from which the information asked 
 may be obtained. 
 
56 
 
 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
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TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 57 
 
 The statement by the treasurer in the general account shows all of 
 the transactions of the company outside of its operating details. 
 
 Mr. Windom. Does not the company receive dividends or profits from 
 this property bought with this money — §S4S,000,000 — except that for re- 
 pairs and fuel, &c. ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Do they not pay a dividend also on the $46,000,000 
 of stock, or the additional stock, and interest on the additional bonds 
 making up the $46,000,000 f 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir ; they pay dividends on all the stock they issue. 
 
 The Chairman. So that, really, there is a double profit to the com- 
 pany growing out of that increase to the capital stock and bonds. 
 They receive a profit from the property, and they also make a dividend 
 on the increase of stock, -and pay interest on the increase of bonds with 
 which this property was bought. 
 
 Mr. Lewis. I do not know that I exactly understand you. Of course, 
 if they invested this money they obtained from stock and bouds profit- 
 ably, they would derive an income from it which would go toward pay- 
 ing the interest on their own bonds or stock. 
 
 The Chairman. That goes to make up your receipts ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis'. Yes, sir ; it goes to make up the general income of the 
 company by reducing interest account. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. I suppose the bonds of railroad corporations included 
 in your assets are bonds of railroads that you have aided in construct- 
 ing their works, &c. ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Do you know whether, generally, the bonds and stock 
 which you have purchased of this kind have been very profitable, or 
 whether you have gained your profit by the improved business given to 
 your road t 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Some of these bonds are remunerative, and others are not 
 at present. They all are getting into being remunerative. As a rule, 
 after taking a road, it takes a considerable while to get the business up 
 so that it will pay a profit over working expenses. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Have these bonds been purchased from the earnings 
 of the company from time to time ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. They have been paid for out of money in the treasury, but 
 it would be difficult to say what portion of the money was derived from 
 earnings and what from the proceeds of stock and bonds sold. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Is any portion of it made by accumulated earnings 
 not divided ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. That I could not answer definitely. It might or might 
 not be. Any profits over and above the dividends would be more likely 
 to go into the general improvement of the road. It is a very difficult 
 matter in railroad business to decide absolutely many charges, whether 
 they would be repairs or construction, or what amount of a charge 
 should be charged to repairs and what to construction. Different rail- 
 roads have different methods. Some railroads charge all they can to 
 construction, while others charge as little as they well can and be on 
 the safe side. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Do not these $42,000,000 include the whole of your 
 construction account; is not that the whole cost of your road ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir ; construction and equipment account, as upon 
 our treasurer's books ; but over and above that large expenditures have 
 been made upon the road, and equipments paid out of earnings. 
 
58 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOABD. 
 
 Mr. Sheeiian. And the other assets are investments which you haye 
 made as a corporation in other railroad companies < i^seA line- 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir, including the working capital for leasea nne«, 
 for cross-ties, iron, and other materials. w,„,i„ -..mr-f rtii« 
 
 The ChaibW You spoke of an issue of stock and bonds since thus 
 
 report was made, did you not ' 
 
 TheSiE^'. Has not the legislature of Pennsylvania authorized 
 an additional issue of stock, and if so, how much, on your roau , 
 
 Mr. LEwrs. Thev authorized us to increase the capital stock. Mr. 
 Kneass, I think, can give you figures better than I can on that. 
 
 Mr. Kneaks. The company was authorized, m February, l*> t .j, to in- 
 crease its capital stock from time to time H , .>.000,000. 
 
 The Chateman. Has any part of that stock-been issued i 
 
 Mr Knea-s 2so sir, no part of the last authorized increase has been 
 issued, but out of stock authorized in 1872 there have been issues 
 made since last annnal report. 
 
 The Chaibman. How much ? 
 
 Mr. Kneass. I think about $13,000,000. 
 
 The Chaieiian. Has that been disposed of! 
 
 Mr. K>eass. Yes. sir: it was issued, giving the stwkbolders the privi- 
 lege of subscribing at par. That stock was taken mainly to be expended 
 on the road in terminal facilities, to enable it to accommodate its in- 
 creased and increasing business. 
 
 The Chaibman. Taken at par ? 
 
 Mr. Kneass. Yes sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. That Las been since the 1st of January : since this report 
 ■was printed ! 
 
 Mr. Kneass. Yes, sir : it takes a great deal of money to provide for 
 the increase of the bu.sii.'-ss. 
 
 Mr. Sheeman. Do you regulate tolls on canals! 
 
 Mr. Kneass. ~So, sir. 
 
 Mr. Sheeman. Do you know them ? 
 
 Mr. Kneass. I have very little knowledge of them. 
 
 Mr. Sheeman. Who would know the tolls paid on the canals ! 
 
 Mr. Kneads. The president of the canal company. General Wjstar. 
 
 Mr. Sheeman. Is be in town ! 
 
 Mr. Kneass. No. sir. he is not here. 
 
 Mr. Sheeman. You say the canals do not do any through business? 
 
 Mr. Kneass. No. sir. excepting between here and Baltimore. 
 
 Mr. Sheeman. But I speak of the interior canals of Pennsylvania. 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. They do none at all. 
 
 Mr. Sheeman. My object in inquiring was to learn how Ur they 
 affect you in enabling you to carry grain in competition with other 
 lines. 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. None at all, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the arrangement between your company and 
 the sleeping-ear corn pan y or companies! 
 
 Mr. Cassaii. They furnish the cars and we run them, not making 
 them any charge for doing so. and they collect whatever charges they 
 may for berths or seats. 
 
 The Chaibman. They receive all the proceeds of the berths, and the 
 benefit you derive is the use of the car! 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Yes, sir, and the accommodation it affords the passen- 
 gers, of course. They hire the porter and conductor of the car. 
 
TRAySPOBTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 59 
 
 The CHATR3IAS. Do yon regard that arrangement as beneficial to the 
 company f 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Well, yes. we think it is a fair one. We are owners 
 in the sleeping-car stock ; the Pennsylvania Railroad Company. I mean, 
 is. as a company. 
 
 The Chairman-. Xot individual members ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Xo. sir : as a company. It owns stock representing 
 abont half of the value of the equipment on its lines ; so that the Penn- 
 sylvania Eailroad Company participates to the extent of one naif in all 
 the profits earned on its own line by the running of these sleeping-cars. 
 This we think is a better arrangement for the company than if it ran 
 its own ears. as. with such an extended system of sleeping-car lines. 
 running on many roads in different interests, the service can be better 
 managed and more efficiently performed by a separate organization. 
 The Pullman Palaoe-Car Company, too. own all. or nearly all, the 
 patents on sleeping-cars : and it is also doubtful whether a railroad 
 company could legally collect pay for the sleeping-car accommodations, 
 wheq. as would frequently be the case, this charge, added to the pas- 
 sage fare, would exceed the limits fixed by law. 
 
 The Chalk :ma>~ (addressing the committee.) I find on pages 10S and 109 
 of this report a detailed statement of the expenses of the Pennsylvania 
 Railroad and brandies for the year ending December 31, as follows : 
 
60 
 
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(54 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Chapin, president of the Boston and Albany Railroad Company, 
 examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : „ „ 
 
 Question. Will you please state your connection with the J>ew xom 
 
 Central Railroad Company ? . ioinflv 
 
 Answer. We have a through arrangement with them je are jointly 
 
 interested with them in three lines of through-cars the Bed, White 
 
 and Blue Lines. We have also business arrangements as to passengers 
 
 and freights; freights to and from the line of their road. Freights 
 
 from beyond their road to the sea-board and oyer our road or east of us 
 
 are mainly governed by the rules governing the other lines. 
 
 Q. Have you ever made any estimate as to the eost per ton per mile 
 
 over your road ? . , .. 
 
 A. Yes, sir; I have made a good many figures m that connection. 
 
 Q. What do you make it ? 
 
 A. Our whole cost, taking passengers and freight, is a little more 
 than a cent and a half a mile. 
 
 Q. 1 meant to include in my question only freight. 
 
 A. I suppose it would not vary much from a cent and a quarter. 
 
 Q. Of the actual cost ? 
 
 A. The actual cost. 
 
 Q. Yours is a road of high grade 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we have 80-foot grades, and our fuel eosts us a good deal 
 more than the western routes. We formerly had cheap wood in our 
 mountain divisions, but coal has become a substitute for it, and now 
 our coal costs us over $8. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. It costs the Pennsylvania Central only $2. 
 
 By the CHAIRMAN : 
 
 Q. What are your average charges per ton per mile on freight ? 
 
 A. Our freight average last year I think was 2 T n ff cents or 2J T . 
 
 Q. What is your judgment as to the relative capacity of canals con- 
 ducted as the Erie Canal, or I should say, rather, of the size and dimen- 
 sions of the Erie Canal, and railroads, economically considered ? Which 
 is the cheapest ? 
 
 Q. I think there are so many questions to come into that, that hardly 
 any answer would be satisfactory. That a canal could move pig-iron or 
 iron-ores in large quantities something less than a railroad can I have 
 not any doubt ; but when you come to the question of grain, the time 
 and the better condition that the grain is delivered in is an element, and 
 I have no doubt there is true economy in carrying it in the cars, even for 
 export, because I believe grain can be put aboard of a vessel here for 
 Liverpool in as good condition from cars as it can be taken aboard of a 
 canal-boat at Buffalo from a vessel, to come from there here, and there 
 are ten or twelve days at certain seasons of the year that grain is likely 
 to heat. 
 
 Q. Is there any difference in the price of grain brought by water, the 
 Erie Canal, and by railroad to New York 1 
 
 A. That I do not know. We consider it very much better from the 
 cars. A car- load is 400 bushels. It is surrounded by fresh air and not 
 by water. 
 
 Q. What proportion of the grain passing over your road to the East 
 comes by canal and what proportion by rail ? 
 
 A. Next to nothing comes by canal now. We have an elevator at 
 Albany, but it is out of use almost the entire time. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 65 
 
 Q. All of the grain that you transport to Boston or the New England 
 towns comes through on these freight-lines 1 
 
 A. Almost wholly, sir. 
 
 Q. Is your grain that you receive usually shipped from Chicago or 
 from some of these further western points ? 
 
 A. Chicago is the largest point, I think, and a large amount from 
 Toledo ; but there is a great deal taken from the interior, all over Indi- 
 ana, Illinois, and Michigan. Cars are loaded at small stations. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. How much is charged from Toledo to Boston on wheat per bushel ? 
 A. I cannot give you the exact price, sir. Not far from thirty cents. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. We have a statement here from Mr. Gray, at Chicago, that adding 
 5 cents to the New York rates would give us the Boston rates ; is that 
 as you understand ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; 5 cents a hundred pounds, not 5 cents a bushel. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Is your purchase of wheat generally in flour or wheat 1 
 
 A. We carry some wheat in the barrel, but mostly flour. We carry 
 corn and oats more largely than any other grain. 
 , Q. Where is the flour made, in the Toledo market ? 
 
 A. It is made in the interior; all over. There is a good deal of flour 
 brought from Saint Louis, manufactured there. 
 
 Q. How much cheaper is it to carry a barrel of flour than five bush- 
 els of wheat ? Do you carry it at the same rate per pound 1 
 
 A. No, sir ; the flour is carried at a little less rate. There is one ad- 
 vantage in carrying it in the grain, that the shorts, the bran, is worth 
 more East. We carry a great deal of that separate. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 Q. Then the barrel is worth more East than it is West f 
 A. No, sir ; I do not think the barrel is worth any more than it costs 
 there, but it is in convenient form for handling." The barrel would 
 hardly sell for as much as it cost, but it would come pretty near it if it 
 was taken care of, and could be used for putting up various things. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. I understood Mr. Hayes to say that a cargo or car-load of wheat 
 put upon one of these freight-lines or freight-cars belonging to the 
 freight-line in the interior, Iowa for instance, passing through to Boston, 
 has no charge upon it whatever, except freight charge, until it reaches 
 Boston 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; there is no intermediate charge. 
 
 Q. The farmer, for instance, in Des Moines, puts his wheat upon one of ■ 
 your cars; it passes through to Boston with nothing but freight charge ? 
 
 A. Nothing but freight. 
 
 Q. A car-load of grain starting from Des Moines pays from Des Moines 
 to Chicago only the pro rata rate ? 
 
 A. I am not able to answer that question. 
 
 The Chairman (to Mr. Potts.) Suppose you start upon your line a car 
 loaded with wheat at one of the interior points, say Des Moines or 
 Omaha, does it not pay more from Omaha to Chicago per mile than 
 from Chicago to New York 1 
 5 T 
 
'8G TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Potts. It pays just the same, and it pays rather less per mile 
 than freight originating in Chicago would pay. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that true upon all the roads that your cars run 
 over ? ■ -n i • 
 
 Mr'. Potts. All of them. We bring freight also from Saint Paul in 
 the same manner. f . ,. 
 
 The Chairman. I understand you to say that wherever your ireignt 
 lines are used, it is no more expensive transporting west ot Unicago to 
 Chicago than it is this side of Chicago ? 
 
 Mr. Potts. Not from a competitive point, but the charge from a 
 local station Up to the nearest competitive point is another matter. 
 
 The Chairman. That is not true, then, of all the points along the 
 line you run on, but only at competitive points 1 
 
 Mr. Potts. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis (to Mr. Cassatt.) We want to get at the capacity, among 
 other things, of a double-track road, and, as you are the manager of oue 
 of the leading double-track roads of the country, I would like to ask 
 you how many freight-trains, in your judgment, can pass safely over a 
 double-track road, any given point, for '2i hours? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. We run from Columbia East frequently sixty trains a 
 <day in each direction, they being of twenty-two cars each. The grades 
 are heavy, 40 feet to the mile. I think you could move one hundred 
 trains a day in each direction on a double-track road. Tou might ex-, 
 ceed this at times, but I should consider it good work to move that 
 number as an average. 
 
 Mr. Davis. How many minutes apart would you run the trains, and 
 "would you run them in convoys ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. I would run them in convoys or schedules, as we call 
 them, running the different trains on one schedule five minutes apart, 
 and then leave as much time as possible between the schedules to repair 
 the track. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Is your rule five minutes now ? 
 
 Mr. Cassatt. Five minutes, yes, sir ; freight-trains running on the 
 same schedule are allowed to follow each other five minutes apart. 
 
 On motion of Mr. Conkling, the committee adjourned to meet at 10 
 »'clock to-morrow morning. 
 
 New York, September 12, 1873. 
 
 The committee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to adjournment. 
 
 Maj. Eobert Taylor : I did not know but what it might be a matter 
 sof interest to this committee to learn how the locks of our present 
 canals could be very largely lengthened ; that is, their chamber without 
 the necessity of lengthening the side- walls, and in case of any new 
 «canals that should be made whereby the same improvement could be 
 aised that would save the necessity of making the side-walls of a lock 
 some fiundred feet longer than there was any necessity for, by using 
 the proper style of gates. This may not be a matter at all witiiin the 
 province of this committee. 
 
 The Chairman. It is a matter of engineering, perhaps, technically. 
 
 Mr. Taylor. I thought I would call here and mention this circum- 
 stance. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. That would be a subject probably for the considera- 
 tion of the committee of the legislature of New York. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOAED. • 67 
 
 Horace H. Day, of the Niagara Ship-Canal, American side : 
 
 Mr. Chairman : In the few minutes assigned to me in which to make 
 my statement I propose to confine myself strictly to the subject. To 
 do full justice to this whole subject would take me two hours, probably. 
 It is known to this committee that I have for a long time identified 
 myself with efforts to promote the Niagara Ship Canal, and I may say 
 have in various ways expended more time and money than perhaps any 
 other person in the country. I have long foreseen that there was no 
 other way by which to. meet the just demands of both East and West, 
 and entirely agree with our present Chief Magistrate, whose repeated 
 recommendations in respect to this and other water-ways will stand the 
 test of time, and if he can carry them through during his present term 
 place the nation under even greater obligations for arresting greater 
 calamities than was in the contest which overthrew Southern slavery. 
 It is settled beyond all manner of doubt that water-conveyances are the 
 cheapest. All else has been tried in vain. The war drew the country 
 together, but to-day sectional interests are again rising, and placing the 
 nation in far greater danger than it was from the old systems and insti- 
 tution of the South. Monopolies and anarchies are the same; while 
 the latter was confined to family and blood, the former is a wider spread 
 power, and far more to be feared. It may be regarded as contagious; 
 building up hatred, engendering malice and spite, which has already, 
 and will more effectually resort to political strategy to build up and 
 extend its blighting influence far and wide, bearing down, depressing, 
 and impoverishing one part of the country, while it fosters and protects, 
 through its injustice, another; shutting out man from his fellow man, 
 turning back the rushing tide of God's great ocean of commerce, placing 
 the iron hand of injustice on the mouths of the poor, and robbing the 
 laborer of his hard-earned bread, compelling idleness to revel in the 
 waste which monopoly creates, and obstinacy and tryanny hold, for the 
 selfishness of the few who close the "rings" and make the "corners" 
 upon a/id in which the nation's best interests are sacrified, ad libitum, 
 as they our lords and masters will. All else had been tried. Cotton, 
 was not and could not be king, and usurp the power in one-half the 
 nation ; sugar, rice, and tobacco claimed their part and portion in the 
 channels of commerce, and all found a place and a way to reach us. 
 Then came the louder call from all the world for bread, for corn, and 
 other food-products, and what was the auswer ? 
 
 The politicians and monopolists saw that all the world must have 
 what they asked for, apd their opportunity was in the demand for bread. 
 How have these monopolists and politicians expressed themselves? 
 Their late actions and the result certainly speak plainer than can I. 
 Credit Mobilier, and numerous others — lesser in the single, yet greater 
 in the aggregate — certainly speaks for itself. All of these things, 
 although passed away, have become the landmarks and foundation to 
 enable us to make a more certain cord to bind us together as a nation — 
 humane, wise, and just, and, necessarily, prosperous. These great 
 water-ways, to make cheap transportation sure, beyond the power of 
 avarice to control, point the only safe way. At least three great avenues 
 from the sea to the Mississippi valley should be undertaken now — one 
 through the northern lakes, the Saint Lawrence, and Champlain to New 
 York, one through Virginia, and one still further south. 
 
 The double-track railroad, to be built and owned by the Government, 
 and used by all who might wish to run their cars upon it, would, of 
 course, be desirable, but ten such roads would fail of one great object — 
 a steady foreign market for our surplus products. If this nation relies 
 
68 t TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 upon any kind of railroad, Canada, with British capital, will Perform 
 the service cheaper by water through the Saint Lawrence anrt mou we*i, 
 and to compete with this route, and keep the trade in tlelJ m t« B "™) 
 we will, after all, as I have said, be compelled to resort to tne cneap 
 water-transportation. There is no shadow of a doubt of it m my mina. 
 Looking to the absolute necessity of the Niagara Ship ^ ana >7 *■ nave 
 studied how to cheapen the cost of the structure, and shorten tne time, 
 and have arrived at a perfect system by which a ship 01 vuu tons can 
 pass from navigable water above the falls to navigable water at .Lewiston 
 below the falls, within one hour, allowing fifteen minutes at the eleve- 
 vator, where one vessel would pass each way in the same time and by 
 one operation. 
 
 By the aid of compressed air the entire work of excavation ot the 
 rocky bed of the canal on the line of the Government survey, and by 
 the shortest route, can be accomplished with great saving, as the fall- 
 ing water of the Niagara itself will furnish all the power to do the work, 
 and if the United States is willing to donate $4,000,000 to a private 
 company, I can furnish satisfactory assurance that a canal and elevator, 
 capable of passing not less than fifty vessels of 1,200 ton carrying capac- 
 ity each way every twenty-four hours, can be completed in two years, 
 and delivered to the Government by the owners any time within ten 
 years, at less than $8,000,000. The elevator capacity can be increased 
 at will to any desirable extent, even to passing 200,000 tons of merchan- 
 dise a day, if so much should be required. 
 
 I have brought with me some sketches which will enable me very 
 briefly to explain the mode by which this result is to be accomplished, 
 and from an inspection of which you will see its entire probability, and, 
 by the aid of engineers whom you may call, for the entire certainty of 
 success. I have myself consulted engineers of eminence and know 
 their opinions well. I have studied this matter a long time myself, 
 and can satisfy the country, if they will make the investigations, that 
 the plan 1 propose is entirely feasible, profitable, and worthy of the 
 consideration of the Government and the people. I hold in my hand, 
 and would be glad to place in that of the committee, a sketch which I 
 will be glad to explain. 
 
 (Copies of the diagram referred to were placed in the hands of the 
 committee by Mr. Day.) 
 
 The canal will start, on my plan, about three miles above Niagara 
 Palls, and cross by the straightest line possible outside of the vil- 
 lage of Suspension Bridge, and, following the old Government sur- 
 vey, strike the river at Lewiston Heights, five and three-quarters 
 miles long. There is only one point at which lockage or lifting will be 
 requisite, and that is at Lewiston, on the American side, as you will all 
 remember, opposite the monument. At that point, perhaps, as the last 
 and best of numerous plans which I have submitted to the considera- 
 tion of engineers and the people, my last plan and that plan, in its best 
 expression, means to draw the ship up sideways in an iron box corre- 
 sponding to a canaMock, giving the bearings numerous places to sup- 
 port I published this as the extreme expression of the plan I had in 
 'view, to show that it was possible to meet the utmost objection and 
 raise the ship perpendicularly by suitable mechanism. Enough weights 
 suspended on each side of that canal-lock by suitable steel cables & will 
 raise and lower that ship at the will of the operator. 
 
 Mr. Conkling, So this is to be by mechanical-power, and not bv hv- 
 draulic-power 1 J J 
 
 Mr. Day. Oh, of course, hydraulic-power will have to be used ; it is 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. . G9 
 
 there in abundance. The sketch in my hand, designed to illustrate 
 how a train of cars may be drawn up a hill, avoiding the necessity of 
 cutting through a tunnel, will at the same time illustrate the method of 
 my lock. The canal-lock in that arrangement stands on a wedge-formed 
 camel, so that the water is level in the lock, and the vessel is level, and 
 thus it is drawn up the incline that we find at Lewiston. Five hundred 
 or 750 feet would be the entire length. Any engineer will admit that 
 there are no mechanical forces which amount to engineering difficulties 
 in doing that. The sketch shows that we can draw it up perpendic- 
 ularly. 
 Mr. Davis. What is the elevation there? 
 Mr. Day. Three hundred and forty feet, perpendicular. 
 Mr. Conkling. And on the slant 700 1 
 
 Mr. Day. Yes, sir. Vessels would come up at Lewiston, and pass 
 into this lock at the end of it; the gate is closed; water is in it — of> 
 course, the larger the vessel the smaller the water — and are drawn 
 up in that way. Two of them may be operated at the same time, 
 one to let down the vessel and the other to lift it. This sketch 
 illustrates a single lock. Two of these, one counterbalancing the other, 
 will be the course adopted. Now, by the aid of the water-power of Ni- 
 agara Falls, through compressed air, and the machinery for cutting and 
 drilling rock and hoisting up, known to all engineers to-day, it will 
 make unnecessary a large expenditure for the labor of men. The cut- 
 ting out of the rock at this point will also be done by compressed air 
 and by the water power of Niagara Falls. The cost, when investigated 
 by engineers, will befound to be so very much more than that hitherto pro- 
 posed and considered by the country that it will startle. In connection 
 with this subject, some ten years ago, I- caused a partial survey to be 
 made by engineers, who occupied some two months and a half of their 
 time for my benefit, to learn if I could get out of Lake Ontario into 
 Lake Champlain, and thence through to New York. We found the 
 elevation between Lake Champlain and Lake Ontario, or the river Saint 
 Lawrence below Ogdensburgh, to be over 1,100 feet on the American 
 side of the line. The canal at that time would have cost $12,000,000 to 
 open communication for a 1,200-ton ship from the Saint Lawrence to 
 Lake Champlain. We examined a route just north of the line dipping 
 into Canada, and found the difference of level there not over 40 feet, 
 and the cost $4,000,000. If, in a treaty with Canada, we could provide 
 for the use of so much of their territory as to make that line, we could 
 then bring the produce of the great West down to the lower end of 
 Lake Ontario with these two expenditures, the people paying $4,000,000 
 for this enterprise, with the privilege of having it back any time within 
 ten years, and the $4,000,000 more from the Saint Lawrence to Lake 
 Champlain would leave the engineers of New York to complete the 
 route from Whitehall to navigation on the Hudson Eiver. I have fol- 
 lowed up this subject. I have made many devices to overcome these 
 objections, and have some three or four matured plans. I, myself, like 
 this plan. It is quick ; fifteen minutes would be ample for raising one 
 and lowering another ship. 
 Mr. Sherman. Do yon mean this vertical plan or the inclined plane? 
 Mr. Day. Either one of them. They would both come entirely within 
 the range of fifteen minutes. Time is so important. If a vessel can 
 steam from Buffalo directly to this elevator without any obstruction 
 whatever, then I assert, and I have no fear of contradiction, that even, 
 if we have to tow a vessel into the canal, we can pass it from the Niagara 
 
70 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 F»iver above the Mis to the navigable waters of Niagara Eiver below 
 the falls at Lewiston within the period of one hour. 
 
 I believe experience has demonstrated that the time would oe some- 
 thing in the neighborhood of twenty-four hours, average working, 
 through the Welland Canal. Now a fair value of a ship .1,200 tons tor 
 twenty four hours is somewhere from three to four or five hundred dol- 
 lars ; hence, every vessel can save that much. There are other consider- 
 ations which will commend this system to the West and statesmen and 
 to the great agricultural West. We can at that point convert the grain, 
 by the aid of the extensive water-power there, into flour, to be raised 
 out of the ship by the water-power of Niagara Falls. It can be then 
 lowered into the ship bv the same water-power by the aid of compressed 
 air, and it may that within two or three days of the market of New York 
 City. I see that your time is about to be occupied by others; I shall 
 be happy to answer any questions. 
 Mr. Sherman. Have you got the basis of your estimated cost ? 
 Mr. Day. I have not it here in detail. Parties of wealth and respon- 
 sibility are willing to unite with me in this proposition, and probably will 
 in the course of the coming session of Congress, and I would like a full 
 canvass of the enterprise. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee will take the papers you have pre- 
 sented and give them a careful examination, and if there are any ques- 
 tions we may wish to ask you afterward, we will address you a com- 
 munication on the subject. Several gentlemen are now present whom 
 we desire to hear this morning, and, as we can probably get this infor- 
 mation from you by such means as well as any other, we will do so. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. If you can send a statement of the elements of cost 
 of this canal, it would be well enough for you to do so, if you can make 
 it out conveniently, giving the distance, excavation, and all the elements 
 of cost as far as you can. Do you know the elevation of the inclined 
 plane of the canal at Newark, N. J. ? 
 
 Mr. Day. About 85 feet is my recollection. Mr. E. E. Johnson, an 
 eminent engineer, assisted me in procuring some of these plans, and they 
 had his entire indorsement. I have numerous letters from him which. 
 I could, perhaps, furnish, as he is now deceased, which could prove that, 
 and I have also had the opinion of other very eminent engineers, and on 
 that question I do not think there is any possible doubt. 
 
 Israel P. Hatch, of Buffalo : 
 
 All modern schemes for cheapening transportation in this country are 
 based upon calculations predicated upon the inability of the Erie Canal 
 to transport the products of the West to tide-water, and the fallacy that 
 its maximum capacity has been reached. Estimating its lockages (the 
 only test of capacity) at ten minutes, with 220 days as the season of 
 navigation, and the enlargement of the canal completed with double 
 locks, 56 feet bottom, 7 feet deep, and 70 feet wide, 250,000 of wheat, 
 or 8,000,000 of tons, can be moved over it in one season. The log of 
 the steamer Diven, contending for the prize, showed the lockages to be 
 five minutes. The above amount is twice that of grain ever exported 
 from Chicago, Du Luth, Milwaukee, Detroit, and Toledo in any one year. 
 The entire tonnage of the Erie Canal last year was 6,673,370. This is 
 about a quarter of the tonnage moved over all the canals, rivers and 
 railways of this country. And the eastward-bound tonnage over the 
 Erie Canal equals one-half of the entire eastern-bound tonnage carried 
 by all methods of transportation. The Erie Canal accomplishes all this 
 in six months, while the railways work all the year. The New York 
 
TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOARD. 71 
 
 Times said the other day, as long as our double locks were not com- 
 pleted, we only had a single-lock caual. Cheap transportation over 
 Erie Canal. It is believed by our most experienced men interested in lake 
 navigation, that by the introduction of the steam-barge system, same 
 as upon the Mississippi River, and which is now in successful operation 
 upon the lakes, will reduce freight from Chicago to Buffalo in another 
 year to three cents. In past years it has often been carried at that 
 price. With the increase of upward-bound freight there must be a cor- 
 responding decrease in the cost of transportation of return cargoes. A 
 reduction in elevating charges at Buffalo must neeessarily follow. They 
 have been reduced already to one cent per bushel. 
 
 When the amendment to th'e constitution, or funding bill, which passed 
 our legislature last winter, shall be ratified by the people next winter at 
 a special election, as provided for in the constitution, in the same way 
 as the amendment for the enlargement of 1854, and the capacity of the 
 Erie Canal is brought up to the legal standard of 1835, uow called the 
 enlargement of 1851, and all these improvements are in a progressive 
 state, no one would estimate the cost of transportation over Erie Canal 
 to the city of Sew York from Buffalo over six cents, as the canal board,, 
 under the amendment, will be prohibited from levying any more toll 
 than is necessary for the " expenses of c611ection, superintendence, and 
 keeping the canals in repair," and a small charge for sinking fund to- 
 pay off canal debt. Under this amendment the interests of western. 
 producers, as well as eastern consumers, will be fully protected and 
 guaranteed. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Tou do not take the tonuage of the railways 1 
 
 Mr. Hatch. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. But not the steamboats ? 
 
 Mr. Hatch. No, sir ; I suppose that would not be included. 
 
 Mr. Conexing. You talk of artificial channels ? 
 
 Mr. Hatch. All artificial channels. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. In your written statement you made it a little broader,. 
 " all of the modes of transportation." 
 
 Mr. Hatch. My impression now is that it includes all, without going 
 back to examine particularly. 
 
 Mr. Conkltng. Your statement is, " all other methods of transporta- 
 tion !" 
 
 Mr. Hatch. Yes, sir ; of transportation from the East to the West. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. You did not say that ? 
 
 Mr. Hatch. It should be in that way. Perhaps my statement was 
 too hastily gotten up. 
 
 L. H. Dunan, auditor-general of the Erie Bailroad Company. 
 
 Mr. Chairman : I am present here to represent the Erie Road. At 
 the same time I would say that, if it is at all practicable, I should like 
 to have the committee hear from the Erie Road through Mr. Blanchard,. 
 our second vice-president, who we expect here to-night or to-morrow 
 night. If the committee propose to hold any future session in the city, 
 I should like to have them accord the privilege to the Erie Road of 
 hearing from it through him. 
 
 The Chairman. Possibly we can hear him to-morrow, as we have a 
 session then. r 
 
 Mr. Conkling. What is the likelihood of his being here to-night 
 rather than to-morrow night ? 
 
 Mr. Dunan. If he got away from Buffalo he will be here to-night or 
 to-morrow morning. He can leave Buffalo at 2 o'clock and reach here 
 
72 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 to-morow morning. In his absence I shall be pleased to answer any 
 questions that the committee may desire to put relative to our organiza- 
 tion and workings, or if there is anything now that they would line to 
 •know, I shall be happy to answer if 1 am able. This inquiry more 
 properly tends toward obtaining information of the operations con- 
 trolled by our second and third vice-presidents, both ot whom are ab- 
 sent from the city. The third vice-president will certainly not be here 
 until after you have gone on your trip. With reference to our fast- 
 freight lines, and expenses of freighting, we can probably give you as 
 much information as any one. 
 The examination was postponed. 
 
 New York, September 13, 1873. 
 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment. 
 
 J. D. Hayes, general manger Elue Line, fast-freight, (recalled at his 
 own request.) 
 
 Mr. Chairman : I wish to take up a few of the threads of the discus- 
 sion that Mr. "Worcester left out, and a few that I left out myself in my 
 statement the other day, and give little more detailed information with 
 regard to the operation of the lines. 
 
 The question was put to you yesterday, why these lines were colored, 
 •why the cars were treated differently from cars known as common cars 
 belonging to the same road. That is for the purpose, during the busy 
 time, of furnishin gthe West with the cars, instead of their being used 
 by the New York Central, or any eastern road in a local business to the 
 disadvantage of the West. Therefore, by agreement, these lines are 
 painted a particular color, and put in and turned over to the general 
 management. By the record-book of the movement of these cars, we 
 know every day between what points those cars are from day to day. 
 If we find that a blue car is unreasonably detained on the New York 
 Central Eoad to the detriment of a western shipper, although the car 
 belongs to the New York Central Eoad, and is under their control by 
 reason of its ownership, they have no right by reason of their agreement 
 to take that car and appropriate it for their own local business, no 
 matter what their necessities are. Each furnishes its proper quota to 
 do the business of the West, and to place the West on a fair footing with 
 eastern men in respect to distribution of property. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Who directs where the destination of the car is to be ? 
 
 Mr. Hayes. That is directed by the manager when it is possible for 
 him to do so, but generally by the roads with which the cars are at the 
 time, in proportion to the demand. For instance, suppose fifty cars are 
 required at Peoria, and they have not the cars at Chicago to send there, 
 I would be asked for fifty cars for Peoria, and they would be sent there; 
 but if we had fifty cars for Chicago and fifty at Peoria asked for, and 
 had but fifty to send to both places, they would receive as near as pos- 
 sible the proportion of the cars in proportion to the magnitude of the 
 business, so that the pro rata system of supply and demand would be as 
 nearly balanced as it would be possible to do so under such an arrange- 
 ment. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Who makes the rate of freight of your particular line? 
 
 Mr. Hayes. That I answered the other day. It is made by the 
 western freight agents from the point that the property starts from ; 
 that is, from the competing point. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 73 
 
 Mr. Davis. The Chicago people. 
 
 Mr. Hayes. If it is from Chicago ; if it is from Peoria they make it 
 from Peoria. Saint Louis the same. 
 
 The local as compared with the through rates was a matter that was 
 left out. Much bas been said with regard to the extraordinary charge 
 on local business as compared with the through-business, and a very 
 great popular error has grown out of the discussion of that question 
 much to the injury of railways, and of no benefit to the consumer or 
 producer. If a car-load of property has to be received at a local station, 
 tbe rule governing common carriers is that they are liable for the prop- 
 erty from the time they receive it until it has reached its destination. 
 Therefore, the cost of handling that into store and out again into the 
 cars is just as great to run five miles as it is to run five hundred miles, 
 or one thousand. 
 
 Suppose, for instance, that we receive a car-load of grain to haul fifty 
 miles, and put it at a reasonable rate, the cost of handling that property 
 could not be less than 20 cents per ton. There would be $2. If that 
 property has to be unloaded to go into another company's car at the 
 terminus of its road, at the end of fifty miles, the cost of unloading it 
 is $2 more. The cost of an engine to go into switch and take that is 
 spread over the entire train that is waiting. Therefore, a local-freight 
 train to run one hundred miles in a day accomplishes less work than a 
 through-freight train does to run three hundred miles in the same time. 
 Therefore, if you were to apply, say, the one cent per ton per mile of 
 the through-business to the one cent per ton per mile for the local busi- 
 ness, and deduct your terminal for the receiving and discharging, which 
 is $4, you have $1 left as the proceeds of transportatian for fifty miles. 
 You will see at once that that could not possibly be done. That is out 
 of the nature of things that it should be done. It is unreasonable to 
 expect it to be done. Therefore, all local freight must, of necessity, 
 bear a much larger proportion of cose per ton per mile than through- 
 freight drawn in full trains over long distances, and it is for the purpose 
 of reducing these expenses to the consumer as well as to the producer, 
 and that railways may get something out of a very low rate of freight, 
 .that this organization is effected. The railway companies get a certain 
 amount. The board of trade of Peoria, not touching the lake interest 
 at all, but down into the interior, as a fair sample of the percentage of 
 all those towns, and what the farmers realize, and what the transporta- 
 tion companies do, report : 
 
 No. 2 white, and No. 1 red wheat, as reported by the board of trade 
 at Peoria, as sold for cash : 
 
 Prom March 1 to 31, 1872, the prices ranged from $1.60 to $1.68; 
 from April 6 to 30, $1.68 to $2 ; from May 4 to 31, from $2 to $2.25 per 
 bushel. Then prices fell off some on account of new crop prospects. 
 Could there be any want of facilities at Peoria to move the crops to the 
 sea-board, when wheat would bring such prices there, for the purpose of 
 being sent to the sea-board ? Corn sold there from May 4 to June 15 at 
 a range in price from 40 cents to 45 cents per-bushel ; mixed oats from 
 36 cents to 42 cents. 
 
 There was moved by rail from Peoria for 1872, 432,353 tons. Then 
 the board of trade report : 
 
 In this, the increase from year to year is apparent, and an increase in the movement 
 
 of freight implies an increase in the means of transportation. And the proof is in the 
 
 above statement that the railroad corporations and transportation companies have not 
 
 neglected the business of this city. 
 
 ' The enlargement bf the railroad facilities for the handling of freights has been con- 
 
74 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 tinuous during the year. The present capacity for transportation would be > doubled 
 provided sufficient storage room existed at the markets to which wes ternpro duote ar „ 
 shipped. Cars could then be discharged upon arrival, and returned, laden or unladen, 
 for more freight. But this storage capacity does not exist] and cars lodueowiin grain, 
 especially com and oats, at points in the West, and shipped to pcfiiits 111 tne tot re- 
 main, frequently, from seven to forty-five days from the time of ai rn ■alWor eiet « g du- 
 charged. In eastern markets, blockades are common; and lines of radroads leading to 
 them are crowded with cars, which are used as storage-room for indefinite periods, became 
 of inadequate warehouse provisions. 
 
 Those are the remarks from the secretary of the board of trade at that 
 point. The capacity to handle grain at the destination would double 
 the capacity. Should not your attention be directed to the facilities at 
 the sea-board to receive what is sent to them, instead of opening up 
 rival lines to be used for loaded cars to stand upon side-tracks for stor- 
 age purposes? Have the people at Peoria suffered by the " railway 
 monopoly f Let the following lines cut from their board of trade report 
 for 1872 answer : 
 
 * * * The demand, however, for money at the banks for legitimate business in 
 the movement of the different products of the West, and for mercantile purposes, has 
 been satisfied. * » * The general business of the city has been most satisfactory. 
 All leading articles show a large increase in the quantities handled — wheat and flour 
 excepted. * * * The amount of general work done at the manufactories in iron, 
 and the number of orders executed in the" machine-shops, have been larger than during 
 any previous year. * * * In all branches of general merchandise a large and satis- 
 factory business has been done. * * * Labor, skilled and unskilled, has had its 
 share in the general prosperity. * * * A habit of thrift prevails among the work- 
 ing classes ot Peoria, which insures a partial independence upon which opposing in- 
 terests find it difficult to encroach. The success of one savings bank as a depository 
 for the savings of this class in the community has induced, during the year, the estab- 
 lishment of a second, and the number of depositors of small sums of money is daily, 
 on the increase. The amount of the savings in the two banks is double the amount at 
 the close of last year, and now aggregates $400,000. 
 
 Does this sound much like the waitings of an oppressed people, ground 
 down by "railroad monopoly!" Would they exchange their prosperity 
 for some locality where there are no railroads, or are they anxious to 
 change places with the stockholders of the railroads that have made 
 them what they are? If not, why this hue and cry about oppression? ■ 
 
 It will always be out of the power of all the inhabitants of the West 
 to have railroads run to each man's barn ; therefore some must adapt' 
 themselves to circumstances. Corn cannot command a high price 
 when far removed from railroad facilities. In such localities it will 
 become more profitable to condense it by feeding to cattle and hogs, 
 which can be driven to the nearest railway for transportation, and by 
 establishing manufacturing to consume the surplus productions. It 
 does not follow that because the freight and charges on a bushel of com 
 from some out-of-the-way place to New York, that it must be burned, in- 
 stead of being fed out to hogs and cattle, or made into high- wines, that 
 can be sent to a profitable market. There may be such an extreme case 
 of suffering for fuel that the owner of a fine piano would be justified in 
 using it for stove-wood ; but it does not follow that it would be more 
 profitable to make a business of burning pianos than coal, any more than 
 burning corn under like necessity for doing so. 
 
 The question was asked by Senator Sherman yesterday, why the peo- 
 ple did not invest their money in elevators in New York.' I will answer 
 that question, although I may trespass beyond my time, if you will 
 allow me. While the very strange fact appears, that the capitalists of 
 New York are investing their money in the same kind of storage capacity 
 at the West, the difference and the reason of that is simply because of 
 the difference in the system of storage of grain. At the West it is dou6 
 
TRANSPORTATION TQ THE SEABOARD. 75 
 
 by inspection, and the grain of one grade passes into a bin with a ca- 
 pacity, perhaps, of 40,000 or 50,000 bushels. Therefore, with 20 bins of 
 50,000 bushels, you have a storage capacity of 1,000,000 bushels. That 
 million of bushels done at a cent would be profitable. If you have the 
 same amount distributed 1,000 bushels in a bin, and kept distinct by 
 itself in the city of New York, you would have to have a thousand dif- 
 ferent bins, covering perhaps five or six acres of storage. It is utterly 
 impossible to do the business spread over such an enormous amount of 
 storage capacity, and make it profitable. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Won't you explain why five or six acres will have to 
 be covered with bins ? 
 
 Mr. Hayes. Simply because you will have to have a thousand bins. 
 Tour bins going up to contain 10,000 bushels need not be any larger 
 than a small bin to contain a thousand bushels. Therefore, you have 
 to spread the small-capacity bin out over a large proportion of territory. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. If you eliminated the particular business usage here 
 and trade in grain by inspection, what you are now saying is obviated ?' 
 
 Mr. Hates. Yes, sir ; it is that very point I ' wish to get at, and at 
 that, very point I wish you to particularly understand, as regards the 
 freight of New York against the freight of other sea-port towns, and 
 what the business men of New York will be compelled to meet, or lose 
 their traffic. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. That is the very point I wish to get at. Why do they 
 not change that? 
 
 Mr. Hayes. Simply because the custom for years has been to do it 
 in its present shape. To do the business in that form, large warehouses 
 had been built, at an enormous expense, and they are owned and con- 
 trolled by the very men who own and control the operations of the Corn 
 Exchange, and a different system of doing the business here would 
 bring about a necessary loss to that particular kind of property.. 
 Therefore, there is a difficulty to be arrived at. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Is there no other advantage supposed to exist in pre- 
 serving the identical grain '1 
 
 Mr. Hayes. Not of sufficient consequence to overbalance. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. What are the advantages, great or small, that are 
 supposed to recommend the system that prevails here? 
 
 Mr. Hayes. None whatever, any more than would, be in Boston, Chi- 
 cago, or Baltimore. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. What would they be, if you please, if they had an;y 
 existence at all in any place ? 
 
 Mr. Hayes. Simply suppose you buy a very choice article of grain, 
 out West and send it here, you might suppose that an inspector of grain 
 would favor one party as against another, and inspect the grain a lower 
 grade than the standard would warrant, and the man receiving would 
 receive an inferior quality than the grain that started. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Does that in truth occur appreciably where inspec- 
 tion of grain is the custom f 
 
 Mr. Hayes. Not much; it does to a very limited extent. Where the 
 hoard of trade appoint their inspector of grain he is liable to the board 
 of trade, and what is called the arbitration committee furnishes him 
 with samples of grain, to inspect by, in glass bottles. If he inspects 
 the wheat No. 1, it goes into No. 1 bin. But beeause he has inspected 
 it No. 1 does not compel you to receive that wheat as No. 1. When it 
 is drawn out and delivered to you you say you won't take it. Your 
 remedy is simply to put the sample beside the sample of No. 1, refer it 
 to the arbitration committee, and, if it is not up to sample, the 
 
76 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 warehouse company have to give you what your receipts call for. If 
 that system was established here it would take some little tim. b to a rug 
 it about: but it could be brought about, and it is for the interest of the 
 merchants of New York to bring it about, or their trade is gone. 
 
 Mr. Conexing. Is the evil or hazard you have just stated tne only 
 consideration that you know weighing in favor of preserving the ideii- 
 tity of grain ? 
 
 Mr. Hates. That is all. 
 
 Mr. Conexing. Now will you be good enough to state tor me again, 
 as I did not quite understand you, in regard to the warehouse property 
 here and the objection of owners, the warehouse-men, to the inspection 
 system? . . , 
 
 Mr. Hayes. The system, as I stated before, of receiving and deliver- 
 ing the identical grain which originally came down by the canal, as the 
 only means of transportation, came generally by boat-load. There was 
 not so much difficulty in keeping boat-loads separate as there is in 
 keeping car-loads separate, because a boat-load will amount to six or 
 seven thousand bushels, and to an elevator would be of fair quantity to 
 go into one bin, being of equal grade ; but when you come to private 
 bins for car-load quantities the difficulty is increased very radidly. 
 For a seven-thousand-bushel boat-load you require a seven-thousand- 
 bushel bin, but for the same quantity by car-load you require one hun- 
 dred and forty different bins, supposing it was consigned to one hun- 
 dred and forty consignees and it was the same grade of grain. No man 
 can afford to provide one hundred and forty bins for the same quantity 
 of grain that he can receive in a canal-boat. Therefore, the inspectibn 
 of grain here, by grade, received by cars, is a matter of necessity that 
 must be brought about. 
 
 Mr. Conexing. And so I understand that the facilities which grew 
 up to receive grain which came down the river in tows by barges, are 
 the only facilities existing now for the reception of grain that comes by 
 rail ? 
 
 Mr. Hayes. That is all, sir; I am coming right to that point. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. In conversing with an intelligent business man here 
 engaged in business, he told me that the real difficulty of changing the 
 system was because the railroads refused to guarantee the quantity of 
 freight. They were willing to carry the wheat, but they refused to 
 guarantee the exact quantity. There was more or less wastage, and it 
 was only at exceptional times that they would guarantee the identical 
 quantity. 
 
 Mr. Hayes. The operation of these lines going directly to the place 
 of production reached many times a section of country where the road 
 is too poor to own their own warehouses, and, for the purpose of de- 
 veloping the resources of that country, an individual will go in and 
 build a warehouse. That owner of the warehouse is the owner of the 
 grain. He loads it himself; we have nothing to do with it, only to see 
 that he does not overload the cars. It is natural to suppose he will put 
 in about as little as will turn the scales. When it reaches its destina-' 
 tion, instead of passing into the company's elevator, or to an elevator 
 situated where the company can see it weighed, it passes . on t of our 
 hands entirely into the hands of other parties, so that we have nothing 
 in this world to do with weighing the property in or weighing it out. 
 Therefore it is unreasonable to suppose that we have got to make good 
 the shortcomings of the two weighers which we have nothing to do with 
 whatever. But if it is satisfactorily established that a man has put 
 in honestly three hundred and fifty or three hundred and sixty bushels 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 77 
 
 of wheat in a car, and that car passes through without transfer, and 
 the inspection of the car here shows that it arrived in good order here, 
 and that the seals are unbroken, and we deliver to that man all that 
 the car contains, we take the ground that we have delivered all that 
 he put in, and are not responsible for what he says that he put in, or 
 what the other man says he took out, because we do not weigh it at 
 either end. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. In Chicago the men who own the elevators are really 
 and practically the agents of the railroad companies. There it is 
 weighed by the railroad company. 
 
 Mr. Hayes. I was just coming to that point. At Chicago, for instance, 
 or where there is an elevator that is controlled, or where a railway offi- 
 cial can be sent to weigh the grain into the car, and it comes down, and 
 the proper facilities for inspection, and grading, and delivering from a 
 railway elevator, no matter whether it is owned by the railway com- 
 pany or by individuals, we are bound, in my opinion, to deliver every 
 single pound of property that we receive, and I think the law would 
 compel us to do that just the same as it would compel a canal-boat to 
 deliver the quantity, but it is unreasonable to expect that we shall 
 deliver what is said to be in a car when we have no agency whatever 
 in putting it in or taking it out. 
 
 Eight here I will mention the system of receiving the grain at New 
 York. In the lines of railways coming into Jersey City that is the end 
 of their road. They go no farther. The lines of railroads coming 
 into New York get to New York. Now who shall say where New York 
 is ; whether it is up to Thirty-third street as far as the freight-cars can 
 get down ; down at Saint John's Park, where the dry goods are deliv- 
 ered ; or way round the battery to the piers, where the flour is delivered ; 
 or over in Brooklyn, where the grain is delivered? There is great differ- 
 ence of opinion where New York is. Now, the railroad companies, for 
 the purpose of competing with other cities who have furnished these 
 elevating facilities for the discharge of grain, have taken upon them- 
 selves to bring this property to the end of their road, but it does not 
 stop there. If it is in five car-load lots to one consignee, and one grade, 
 they discharge it into a barge, and that barge is delivered alongside of 
 a ship anywhere in the harbor, to any elevator, or any public store- 
 house, free to the shipper. That is one of the Credit Mobilier rings that 
 is spoken of as existing inside of these other rings. Seven years ago I 
 was connected with just that ring myself. I came here to make a 
 contract for the delivery of that property from the end of the rail to any 
 point in New York where the man wanted it. I did the very best that 
 I could, and it cost a dollar a ton to deliver that property, but it did 
 not cost the consignee one cent, nor the receiver one cent,, nor the ship- 
 per one cent. The roads paid it. 
 
 Mr. CoNKxrjsro. To deliver it how 1 
 
 Mr. Hayes. From the end of the road to the ship or the elevator. I 
 was at liberty to make the contract with any man that I could do the 
 best with. I made the contract. The supposition was that if there 
 was anybody to get any money out of that I was to get a share of it. 
 I state to you distinctly that from that time to this I have never re- 
 ceived, and never known of any railroad official having received, one 
 single farthing. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. When you say you never received^ you say you include r 
 also, the parties behind you f 
 
 Mr. Hayes. I do not speak of that from my knowledge. 
 
78 TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Oonkling. I do Dot understand you now. You came here not to 
 contract for yourself individually alone, but for that line . 
 Mr. Hates. Yes, sir. . , „„,__.„• 
 
 Mr. Oonkling. And the line you say never received any money r 
 Mr. Hayes. I say that the line which has the ring within a ring sup. 
 posed to be— that I made the contract to do this business, and that I 
 would naturally share in its benefits. I say, so far as 1 am peraouafr 
 concerned, or any railway officer I ever knew being connected with the 
 roads at any point, never received, to my knowledge, one single far- 
 thing of the money, and for that part of it we have received no thanks 
 from the merchants of New York, simply because we were not entitled 
 to any, because it was a matter governed by the law of supply and de- 
 mand. We had to do it in order to compete with the lines that far. 
 nish these facilities at other points. The time has now got to be such 
 that this property handled by rail cannot be done in that way in the 
 large quantities you speak of, therefore a different system in the hand- 
 ling of grain received here by rail will have to be inaugurated and the 
 grain inspected and go into storage, according to the grade, so when a 
 train of cars comes in it can be unloaded at once by the inspector's des- 
 ignation of the quality of grain, and the cars moved out. The con- 
 signee will be notified that he has so much No. 1 or 2 grain in store. 
 He pays no attention to it whatever. ' If it lies there thirty days it is 
 all very well ; he need never see the grain at all. He can go to the 
 bank and borrow money upon his storage receipt ; that storage receipt 
 forms a capital of trade, and continues on from bank to bank, and per- 
 haps from month to month. When he sells it he sells it subject tp 
 charge or charges paid, and the same party goes and presents his receipt, 
 and draws from the bin the quantity he is entitled to. It is that cheap 
 storage and the facilities for handling it here, so that the purchaser of 
 the West can afford to keep it here instead of keeping it out west, that 
 must afford the relief that the merchants of New York ask for, or their 
 business must be turned over to parties who do furnish these things. 
 
 Mr. Oonkling. What is your remedy for the difficulty stated by 
 Mr. Sherman in consequence of .which you are unwilling to guarantee 
 a sufficient number of bushels or pounds on delivery, owing to the fact 
 that it is weighed by strangers to you at the termini? 
 
 Mr. Hayes. At the receiving points many of the railway companies 
 receive it, weigh it, and load it, and give a receipt for a specified quan- 
 tity to be delivered here to an elevator or storage, where the railway 
 company also weigh it. 
 
 Mr. Sheeman. The trouble is in that way the owner of the wheat is 
 compelled to take the actual quantity that comes through without re- 
 gard to the amount that he actually delivered ; that is the point. 
 
 Mr. Oonkling. Not as he states it now. If they weigh it themselves 
 and give him a bill at Peoria, which bill acknowledges the receipt by 
 them of 360 bushels of wheat, that entitles him to 360 bushels of wheat 
 here. 
 
 Mr. Hayes. The merchant who tells you about guaranteeing, if he 
 will take the trouble to look further on his bill of lading, he will see that 
 it is receipted for in that way, " weight not guaranteed," simply because 
 we do not weigh it. 
 
 Mr. Oonkling. But I 'understand you to say if you had to weigh it, 
 then you are willing to guarantee the weight which you yourself ascer- 
 tained ? 
 
 . Mr. Hayes. That we have done, going from the companv's elevator 
 in Chicago to the Boston and Albany elevator in Boston, less one per 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 79 
 
 cent, shrinkage. Now it is a matter of no difference at all whether we 
 assume that one per cent, or the shipper, as the rate might govern the 
 risk. My own opinion is that we should assume it in a general arrange- 
 ment for transportation.. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Waiving whatever there may be of shrinkage, I under- 
 stand you if you superintend the loading and unloading of wheat you 
 are willing to guarantee the quantity in transitu as the receipt calls for? 
 
 Mr. Hayes. The arrangement should be that we should deliver where 
 we weigh in and weigh out. There was one of the difficulties that 
 created the necessity for these lines. For instance, the Michigan Cen- 
 tral Eoad would weigh in a certain quantity of grain and give its receipt 
 for it. It would come down to Boston and be weighed out by an en- 
 tirely different company. A man in Boston says, I am not going to 
 guarantee the weight of the Michigan Central Railroad elevator. The 
 necessity of the consignees to receive the overcharge, if any, or damage, 
 if any, at Boston, compelled the formation of lines by which this receipt 
 should not be a Michigan Central Bailroad receipt, but should be a 
 line receipt that would bind the settlement of these overcharges, losses, 
 and damages, and shortages at Boston precisely the same as it would 
 if it was the Michigan Central Boad ending in Boston. And the estab- 
 lishment of the general management of all these lines is simply that 
 when a thing of that kind does occur, and the Boston and Albany Boad 
 or the New York Central or Hudson Biver Boad here are compelled to 
 honor that line's receipt as a part and parcel of the whole, he does it for 
 that line, but he does not go to work and piece-meal this out and collect 
 50 or 75 cents at different points ; he simply charges, the whole of it 
 to me. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Tou spoke of wheat being taken on in many places 
 where, as you said, the railways were too poor to supply elevators. How 
 in case of wheat taken on at stations where there are not railway facil- 
 ities'? Do you propose to superintend the weighing or measurement of 
 wheat so that you would be willing to guarantee the quantity ? 
 
 Mr. Hayes. There are many points where it would be impracticable 
 to do that. From those points the roads would have a local rate to an 
 elevator at the termini of the road, and would there be weighed and • 
 then delivered to us by the elevator-weights at the terminus. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. And from the first elevator you strike, this arrange- 
 ment would hold ? 
 
 Mr. Hayes. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. I think I do not understand either you or Mr. Potts 
 on one point. You spoke of the effect of these lines Vest of Chicago 
 being to carry freights the same at the same rates per mile from com- 
 peting points that they are carried from Chicago east, or am I mis- 
 taken ? 
 
 Mr. Hayes. That was the effect. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, what I want to know is this : suppose that 
 from Winona, Minn., the charge averages three mills per ton per mile, 
 and assuming that to be one of your points — not carried upon your line, 
 and your pro' rata rates are one and one half mills through, would it, 
 put on your cars, go cheaper than put on ordinary cars. 
 
 Mr. Hayes. Not at all. 
 
 The Chairman. How do I understand then.the effect to be produced 
 suggested a moment ago ? 
 
 Mr. Hayes. The effect of that would be that we furnish, that man 
 with the through car. Suppose he hauls it fifty miles and loads it, he 
 has the expense of loading that car for the main line, which, perhaps, may 
 
80 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 occupy him a whole day, and the expense of receiving, and all that sort 
 of thin", hut when he gets to the main line, where it takes a competing 
 rate, neither the road where the load originated is put to the expense of 
 unloading that, and the receiving company agree to load it up again 
 Both companies are relieved from that expense, by which they can anord 
 to reduce to a corresponding extent the through rate from that point 
 on, while the local rate from that fifty miles up to the mam line is not 
 remunerative at any thing like the difference you speak of because of the 
 short haul and the cost of handling. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, I understand you that Saint Paul is a compet- 
 ing point? 
 
 Mr. Hayes. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Winona is not? 
 
 Mr. Hayes. Saint Paul is a competing point to a limited extent. Not 
 so much as Chicago or Saint Louis. 
 
 The Chairman. I am speaking now of the points west of Chicago. 
 Is it any cheaper for the farmer or the shipper at those points to ship by 
 your cars or the other? 
 
 Mr. Hayes. Not at all the same price. 
 
 The Chairman. So that they really pay over those Western roads to 
 Chicago on your cars the rates of the Western roads ? 
 
 Mr. Hayes. Tes, sir ; if you are familiar with the charges from Saint 
 Paul down to Chicago you will understand they are higher in propor- 
 tion per ton per mile than they are from Chicago here. That is in con- 
 sequence of competition at Saint Paul being much less than at Chi- 
 cago. 
 
 The Chairman. I understand that, but that is not the.point I want 
 to get at. The information I want is the effect of your line upon ship- 
 ping transportation over your line. It does not cheapen it, I understand 
 you 1 ? 
 
 Mr. Hayes. We have not yet opened into Saint Paul, but are now 
 going into it. The effect of that will be to stimulate another line going 
 up over the Milwaukee and Saint Paul line to bring this property to an- 
 other route, and I apprehend that in less than twelve months time the rate 
 per ton per mile would be no more out of Saint Paul into Chicago than 
 it is from Chicago here. Therefore the benefit to be derived from this 
 line being extended to Saint Paul will be to reduce that proportion of 
 transportation simply, because the facilities furnished will enable them to 
 haul twice as much. Therefore they can afford to haul it for less. That 
 is the effect. 
 
 The Chairman. Name one of your competing points west of Chicago. 
 
 Mr. Hayes. Burlington. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you carry at any less rate per ton per mile from 
 Burlington than you do from Dubuque ? 
 
 Mr. Hayes. Tes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. It is prorated from Burlington to New York, and 
 pays no more over the line west of Chicago than it does east of Chi- 
 cago. 
 
 Mr. Hayes, Yes, sir. This same town of Peoria will illustrate that 
 as well as anything else. When you come down to Peoria, the rate 
 from there, owing to a shorter line to the sea-board by the way of Bal- 
 timore and the other outlets south, is only 5 cents more per hundred 
 than from Chicago, winter and summer. During the summer sometimes 
 the rates have been the same as from Chicago. Therefore, when we 
 take the property from Peoria and bring it up to Madison they cannot 
 afford to bring it for that short distance at the same rate; therefore, 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 81 
 
 we allow them, say, 10 cents a hundred, to bring it up there. When the 
 rate is 5 cents more we are compelled to take that property that origin- 
 ated in Peoria from the points at Chicago down here at 5 cents per 
 hundred less than the Chicago rate, and the whole line receives just that 
 prorated proportion less, because it originated at a point whe."e com- 
 petition to a shorter line compels us to do it or lose the business, and the 
 business comes to Baltimore instead of coming to New York. 
 
 Watered stock of railroads comes in for its share of investigation. 
 The original cost of the road, or its present actual value, seems to be 
 the question at issue, upon which the capital stock should be issued. 
 There should be no question about it at all ; any property should be 
 rated at its value. If new roads are to be built to compete with those 
 now in operation, they must be based upon present value or cost of 
 building them. If they cost twice as much now as they would have 
 done thirty years ago, you certainly would not expect them to get twice 
 as much money for doing. the business, or for capital to get only half as 
 much return, owing to the additional cost. If not, then is not both of 
 equal value, whether built years ago or now? Therefore, when the 
 various roads which form the present New York Central and Hudson 
 Eiver Eailroad were consolidated into one, each section would value its 
 part, so as to agree upon its proper share in the new issue of stock. The 
 property in New York may have advanced 500 per cent., while that at 
 Auburn or some other points have remained about the same. Therefore, 
 there could be no other way upon which to arrive at an equalization of 
 stock ownership in the new organization only by valuation of each sec- 
 tion. To illustrate this, I will take for example the early settlement of 
 Eochester, N. Y. Then two men lived there, one owning too much land 
 and the other too many cattle, so they traded, a piece of land for one 
 yoke of cattle. That land now, witbout any improvement, would be 
 worth about two millions of dollars. If wanted to establish a manufac- 
 tory upon, and the owner was willing to take stock in the company for. 
 the land, would there be any question about his getting stock for the 
 cash value of the cattle, the original cost, or at the present value of the 
 land ? If not, then why should not the different short lines of rail- 
 roads get the value of their property when getting paid for their share 
 of the new organization. It may be said that the State granted the 
 companies peculiar franchises in their charter, for which the people 
 have a right to expect some privileges in return. 
 
 Let us see what some of those u - peculiar franchises " were. 
 
 First. Was the right to pay for all the property required at its full 
 value. 
 
 Next. The state owning the Erie Canal would not permit the, railroad 
 to carry freight over the canal, but might bring it to the canal. Finally, 
 small valuable parcels might be taken, to meet an urgent detnand, in 
 charge of a messenger or passenger trains. This created the express 
 companies. The pressing demands of the public finally allowed freight 
 to be carried without discrimination. 
 
 Next. The State fixed the rate of passenger fare at two cents per 
 mile, while other roads in other States got from three to four cents per 
 mile. By this " peculiar franchise," the people reserved to themselves 
 about one-third of the ordinary fair paid in other States for the same 
 service. The control of legislatures, by railroad monopolies, is also 
 urged. But little is said of the very absurd bills that are brought into 
 legislatures by members — bills that are wholly impracticable, and were 
 they allowed to pass, would ruin the business people of New York, as 
 well as the railroads. Some of them may be honestly believed in by 
 6t 
 
82 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOAED. 
 
 the proposers of them, while some are introduced apparently for no 
 other purpose than to find out how 7nuch money can be got out of rail- 
 roads to defeat the bills; simply what might be termed "black mail" 
 bills. The facts are notorious, that railroads cannot get even-handed 
 justice from an ordinary jury in our courts. The decisions are almost 
 invariably against the railroad company, without much regard to law 
 or evidence. 
 
 Land grants are another source of complaints. Speculators have 
 made money out of them, the government swindled, and such like sur- 
 face arguments to prejudice the public mind. True, some unworthy 
 examples may be cited. But if all are to be condemned for the faults of 
 a few, and this theory carried out into other branches of business, we 
 might refuse to have money because some persons have counterfeited 
 the genuine, or some thieves are in prison for stealing money. Are not 
 swindles practiced in other business as well as land grants to railroads? 
 If roads are needed to open up new countries where traffic is to be made 
 by reason of opening out Government lands, should not the Government 
 aid in adding value to its own domain f If aid was given in the shape 
 of money instead of public lands, would not the swindler get hold of the 
 money in time to spend it, before the road reached into that country, 
 that must remain in undisturbed solitude unless the road is built. 
 
 What did the Government lose by the grant to the Illinois Central? 
 The alternate section left to the Government was worth four times as 
 much after the road was built as it was before. Therefore, if the coun- 
 try could not be developed without the road and the road could not be 
 built without the land-grant, and the Government could sell their remain- 
 ing half at twice as much as the whole was worth, besides opening up 
 millions of acres outside of these grants, what cause is there of com- 
 plaint ? Even if the company did make something out of its part of 
 the land, should the Government refuse to aid in building roads through 
 its unbroken territories, where it would be financial madness to locate 
 and build roads with private means, where there would be no traffic for 
 years to come ? Government cannot expect private capital to open up 
 the country for its benefit ; therefore the best way to aid them is by 
 granting public lands and getting back in a few years more money in the 
 Treasury for what is left than the whole was worth. 
 
 Elmore H. Walker. Mr. Chairman, the two more prominent com- 
 petingroutes for the interior trade and commerce between the greatnorth- 
 west and the sea-board will be by the lakes and the Erie Canal, through 
 ifhe State of New York, and by the lakes and the Saint Lawrence 
 River, when the Welland and Saint Lawrence Canals shall have been 
 enlarged. The latter route can now pass vessels through the Welland 
 Canal of /our hundred to four hundred and fifty tons measurement, car- 
 rying six hundred to seven hundred tons cargo. The proposed enlarge- 
 ment of both the Welland and Saint Lawrence Canals for the passage 
 of vessels of twelve hundred tons measurement, carrying about sixteen 
 hundred tons cargo each, is expected to be completed within three years. 
 And when that work shall have been finished and opened for business, 
 the State of New York must be prepared to meet a competition by the 
 Saint Lawrence route, at a rate of transportation from Chicago to 
 Montreal not exceeding an average of $3.50 per ton of 2,000 pounds, 
 which is equal to a small fraction over ten cents per bushel of sixty 
 pounds. , , 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. Why do you make that statement? 
 Answer. Because the rate of freight from Chicago to Kingston has in 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 83 
 
 the past, with the present imperfect facilities, been frequently 10 cents 
 per bushel and less. When the Welland and Saint Lawrence Canals 
 shall have been enlarged to a capacity for ships of twelve hundred 
 tons measurement, carrying about sixteen hundred tons, the cost of 
 transportation, as compared with that in the past, will be largely 
 diminished, giving the ability to transport grain from Chicago to Mon- 
 treal at a profit for 10 cents per bushel of 60 pounds, or less than 10 
 cents. 
 
 . Q. What do you regard the relative advantages of Montreal and New 
 York for foreign shipments ? 
 
 A. Equally good for seven months of the year, or during the season 
 of open lake and river navigation. 
 
 By Mr. CONKLING : 
 
 Q. Including insurance ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. The rates of insurance from Montreal to foreign ports 
 have been in the past the same as from New York, except in April and 
 November, when the rates from Montreal are a Very little higher than 
 from New York. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. And your estimate is that, with the improved Welland and Saint 
 Lawrence Canals, grain coald be transported from Chicago to Montreal 
 for 10 cents per bushel t 
 
 A. It could be done at an average rate of 10 cents per bushel with a, 
 profit to the carrier. The average rate of transportation from Chicago^ 
 to New York via the lakes and the Erie Canal for the last seven years,' 
 including' State tolls, and exclusive of Buffalo shipping and transfer 
 charges, has been $7.23 for wheat and $6.92 for corn per ton of 2,000 
 pounds, or an average of about $6 per ton, at which rates carriers have 
 made little or no profit on the canal portion of the route. With all large 
 vessels on the lakes, and an enlarged Erie Canal for boats of six hun- 
 dred tons burden, the cost of transportation from Chicago to New York 
 would not exceed $3 per ton of 2,000 pounds. 
 
 Q. What is your information as to the relative value in New York of 
 wheat shipped from Chicago by water and by rail % 
 
 A. If the grain is in good merchantable order when shipped, there is 
 very little if any difference in the value of the same grades of wheat. 
 Shippers prefer to take boat-loads of grain for export that have arrived in 
 good order by canal, as it is a good indication that it will remain in good 
 order during the ocean voyage. It is also more convenient for exporters 
 to have the grain in the larger bulk of canal-boat loads than in the 
 smaller bulk of car-loads. During specific portions of the year, when 
 grain in large bulk usually goes through what is called the 'sweating 
 process, that moved by rail is generally preferred, on account of its gen- 
 erally better merchantable condition. New corn is less liable to heat 
 when moved by rail than by water, on account of the smaller quantity 
 in a body together, and the greater celerity of movement. If grain is 
 well cured in the grower's granaries before shipment, the value, whether 
 transported by rail or water, is about the same at sea-board ports. Corn 
 however, is garnered in open cribs, exposed to all kinds of weather, and 
 when shelled after being out all winter, contains a large percentage of 
 moisture, and if put in large bodies in elevator bins, or in large vessels 
 or canal-boats, is generally liable to heat, which diminishes the weight 
 and deteriorates the general condition, causing loss to the middle-men 
 handling it, and selling for less money at sea- board ports when shipped. 
 
84 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARBi 
 
 in this condition by water than if shipped by rail in smaller aggregated 
 quantities, diminishing the chances of damage. The grower, when 
 shelling corn in this moist condition, gets pay for three or four pound* 
 of moisture, which is so much premium for always selling it in a moist 
 condition, but the consequence is generally a serious loss to the middle- 
 men between the grower and consumer. Corn is, when in this moist 
 condition, largely shipped from the interior to the sea-board by rail, and 
 sells for more money, it being generally in better merchantable condi, 
 tion on delivery at the sea-board than when shipped by the water-route 
 in moist condition. But, if sold for export, the exporter takes the risk 
 of its heating on the passage to Europe, and not the middle-men be- 
 tween the grower in the West and the exporter at the sea-board. But as- 
 soon as the corn has been thoroughly cured and freed from the danger of 
 heating in passage by water, both the middle-men and the exporters 
 prefer that received by the water-route at the same price. It some- 
 times commands more money when in merchantable condition than if 
 received by rail. 
 
 Q. What is the relative value of corn dried by the drying process in 
 Buffalo and that not dried when it reaches this market 1 
 
 A. It depends upon what the condition of the corn was when the 
 drying process was commenced. If it had not been previously damaged 
 it would probably command as much and sometimes more than that 
 undried. It, however, does not generally command enough greater price 
 when dried, even if in good order before drying, to make good the 
 diminished freight and the expense of drying; hence very little corn 
 undergoes the drying process unless that already damaged by being 
 heated, or that which has so much moisture as to be in danger of heat- 
 ing badly on the passage from Buffalo to New York. The renovating 
 process is sometimes limited to blowing and screening, which tempora- 
 rily checks the heating. 
 
 By Mr. OONKLING: 
 
 Q. By weight or measure 1 
 
 A. By weight. 
 
 Q. Would it also by measure ? 
 
 A. I cannot say as to that, because the sales here are always madfr 
 by weight, at 56 pounds to the bushel. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Is there not a diminution in both weight and measurement 1 
 
 A. There would be a diminution in both weight and measurement by 
 the drying process, and on the former from one to four or five pounds, 
 per bushel, usually one or two pounds. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. With greater diminution of weight than measurement ? 
 A. I think so. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. You say the price is no less ? 
 
 A. If the corn had not been previously damaged by heating or by 
 water, it would rather improve the condition. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Is corn damaged by being artificially dried? 
 
 A. It would not be damaged by a properly constructed and carefully 
 regulated dryer. Some of the dryers burn the corn and give it an un- 
 pleasant odor which cannot be eradicated ; but some of them do not. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. S5 
 
 By Mr. NORWOOD : 
 Q. You speak of the value of corn for food, I suppose, and not seed ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What is the object of drying corn in good condition at Buffalo ? 
 
 A. That is sometimes done to prevent its being damaged. It is also 
 dried -when in good condition for manufacturing into meal. This dry- 
 ing process prevents the souring of the meal after grinding, so that it 
 may be shipped to any part of the world without damaging on the 
 voyage. 
 
 Q. Do you know about the cost of that drying process ? 
 
 A. I do not know what the present charge is. I have paid as high as 
 ten cents per bushel for kiln-drying corn, but I think with the competi- 
 tion among dryers the charge is now about two cents per bushel, vary- 
 ing with the amount of moisture taken out ; but there is the loss to the 
 owner of the corn of the shrinkage over and above the charge for 
 drying. 
 
 Q. Will you speak of the terminal facilities, here or will some other 
 member of the produce exchange give us some information on that 
 point 1 ? 
 
 A. Perhaps some other gentleman will be more familiar with that, 
 sir, than I am. 
 
 By Mr. CONKXING : 
 
 Q. Does drying corn destroy the germinating faculty ? 
 
 A. If the heat is too great it does. 
 
 Q. Does it not aim to go far enough to do that ? 
 
 A. It usually will in some of the dryers if not most of them, but in 
 some the moisture is drawn out instead of being driven in. In these 
 dryers the temperature is not high enough to destroy the germinating 
 faculty of the corn. I would like to state in general terms that, in my 
 view, the question of internal transportation is the most important one 
 to be solved now and in the remaining portion of this century. The 
 movement of through freight Bast and West by all routes north of the 
 Ohio River is about thirteen million tons per annum, in the ratio of 
 about three tons moved eastward to one ton westward ; and of local 
 freight by all these through routes about twenty million tons per annum ; 
 therefore, the local and through freight aggregates by the through routes 
 alone about thirty-three million tons per annum, including both rail 
 and water routes. 
 
 The rail rates on fourth-class freight from Chicago and other terminal 
 points in the West on about the same meridian to the sea-board are 
 eight to ten dollars per ton, during the season of open lake and canal 
 navigation, and from twelve to thirteen dollars per ton during that por- 
 tion of the year when the water-lines are closed by frost. The summer 
 rate by rail is about nine mills per ton per mile, and the winter rail-rate is 
 in the ratio of 1.214 of a cent per ton per mile. The summer rail-rate from 
 Chicago to Philadelphia, New York, and Boston has been respectively 
 $8, $9 and $10 per ton, and the winter rate $11, $12 and $13 per ton, 
 respectively. 
 
 The water rate for the last seven years, from Chicago to New York, 
 via the lakes, the Erie Canal, and the Hudson River, has averaged $7.23 
 per ton on wheat, and $6.94 per ton on corn, including the State canal 
 tolls, and excluding the shipping and transfer charges at Buffalo. The 
 difference in the average price of wheat and corn is caused by the higher 
 
86 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 State tolls on wheat than on corn. The average freight on grain has 
 been for the last seven years about $7 per ton from Chicago to New York, 
 by the water-line, exclusive of Buffalo shipping and transfer charges, 
 and including the State tolls and the carrier's profits. 
 
 The rail rate cannot on the average be less than $9 per ton from Chi- 
 cago to New York, if all the freight is transported at that rate. If the 
 Central .Railway of New York should carry all its freight at the rate of 
 three-quarters of a cent per ton per mile, on its mileage of 1872, it would 
 not have earnings sufficient to pay its running expenses, and could not 
 pay either interest or dividends. If it should carry all its freight at the 
 rate of twelve cents per bushel of sixty pounds of wheat, which is at 
 the rate of nine mills and a small fraction of a mill per ton per mile, it 
 could pay running expenses, interest, rent of leased roads, and would 
 have only about $200,000 over and above that with which to pay divi- 
 dends, aggregating about $8,000,000 annually ; so that, practically, unless 
 some means not now in use can be devised to diminish the cost of rail 
 transportation, the people cannot obtain the relief they seek from onerous 
 charges for the transportation of their products through the medium of 
 railways. 
 
 With all large class vessels navigating the lakes, say of two thousand 
 tons capacity each, property can be transported from Chicago to Buffalo 
 for $1.50 per ton, including the carrier's profits ; and with an enlarged 
 Erie Canal, for boats of six hundred tons carrying capacity, the rate 
 from Buffalo to New York, including nominal State tolls and the car- 
 rier's profits, could be reduced to an average of $1.50 per ton, or $3 per 
 ton from Chicago to New York. With steam on the lakes and the Erie 
 Canal and the Hudson Biver, the time of transit from Chicago to New 
 York need not be more than ten to eleven days. 
 
 These improvements and changes once made, the cost by the water- 
 line will be six to seven dollars less than that now charged as the sum- 
 mer rail-rate, and this difference in cost on a through movement of thir- 
 teen million tons per annum would be from sixty-five to ninety-one mil- 
 lion .dollars per annum. But the movement will be largely by rail in 
 any event. The rail routes will continue to divide the present move- 
 ment with the water-lines, as well as its annual increase. 
 
 The live-stock trade, including the products of animals, comprises 
 about one-ninth of the through-tonnage of the five great through-lines 
 of railways, and is about one-sixth of the eastward through-movement. 
 Besides, there are large classes of other commodities that will go by rail 
 in any event, including all the lighter commodities that will bear the 
 higher rail charges. The greater celerity of movement by rail, the sav- 
 ing of interest and insurance, will always insure a large patronage of the 
 railways. But in a very large proportion of the heavier classes of freight 
 there would be a saving by the using of the water-lines, as they may he 
 improved, of five to six dollars per ton. The through-tonnage, which is 
 now about thirteen million tons, will, before the end of the present cen- 
 tury, probably be swelled to fifty million tons. 
 
 The population of this country from 1790 to 1860 has been increased 
 approximately in the ratio of three per cent, per annum compounded. 
 During the period of the war from 1860 to 1870 there was a falling off 
 in immigration and a large loss in population from the civil strife between 
 the North and the South. The previous ratio of increase was not main- 
 tained during that period. Taking the population by the census of 1870 
 and computing the increasein the same ratio as tb,at from 1790 to 1860 the 
 population at the end of the century will be about ninety-eight millions, 
 and in 1903 will be one hundred millions. The westward movement of 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOAED. <3 i 
 
 the center of population, if continued to the end of the century in the^ 
 same ratio of the last two decades, will remove the center of population, 
 to the Mississippi Valley, and in this and the lake valleys, probably, 
 one-half of the whole population of the country will, be gathered. 
 
 The productions of agriculture and manufactures will be, probably, 
 augmented in a proportion exceeding that of the population ; so that 
 the one great question to be considered during the coming thirty years 
 is the transportation of the productions of fifty millions of people and 
 the consumption of fifty millions more. 
 
 New England and the Middle States tnke more of western-grown 
 grain than all the foreign exports of grain. The live stock for their 
 food-supply must come nearly all of it from the West and Southwest, 
 where there is cheap corn and cheap forage. The consumption of live 
 stock now, in the four principal cities of the sea-board, including Balti- 
 more, Boston, Philadelphia, aud New York, exceeds six and one-half 
 million head per annum. 
 
 The people are now paying annually for the transportation of persons 
 and property by rail and by water about $1,000,000,000. With the in- 
 crease in population and the extension of railways and the wants of 
 consumers and producers, that will probably be swelled before the end 
 of the century to two thousand five hundred millions per annum ; so 
 that as a question of money and its annual disbursement it assumes a 
 greater magnitude than that of any other that can or will come before 
 the people of this country. The remedy for the present onerous rail 
 and water charges will be in the improved and cheaper water routes and 
 in the extension of the railway system. 
 
 The New York Central Railway Company is now doubling its track, 
 and so is the Pennsylvania Central Railway. The Erie aDd Baltimore 
 and Ohio Railways will be compelled to do likewise, or take a secondary 
 position as railway routes. The Chesapeake and Ohio and the Grand 
 Trunk Railways will, in time, follow suit. A new railway from New 
 York to Omaha has been projected, and the necessary legislation in six 
 States through which its line passes has been obtained to secure the 
 right of way. The road is designed to be a double-track railway, exclu- 
 sively for freight. There will, in a comparatively short period of time, 
 probably be six or seven double-track freight railways between the Mis- 
 sissippi Valley and the eastern sea-board. These improvements will, by 
 their competition, give some relief, but perhaps not much in the item of 
 cost ; but all these improvements, as well as the contemplated system of 
 improvements of the water-lines, will be required to meet the business 
 wants of the country. These facilities for transportation can scarcely 
 be multiplied rapidly enough to meet the requirements of the people, 
 for now, in the far West, it takes the product of about three acres of 
 corn to pay for the transportation of the product of one acre of corn to 
 eastern sea-board markets, and that, of course, must be a heavy draft 
 upon the producer as well as the consumer. The State of New York 
 alone takes for her annual consumption about forty-five million bushels 
 more of cereals than are grown within her borders, and the New England 
 States take an equal or larger amount than New York. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. You mean of all kinds of grain ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. That is including flour, wheat, corn, and other cereals. 
 The New England and Middle States together take more western grain 
 than the aggregate exports from the whole country to all foreign coun- 
 tries. 
 
88 ' TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 In the trade between the, interior and sea-board terminal points the 
 route through the State of New York, in connection with the western 
 lakes, early took the precedence, and for a long period secured the most 
 of it through the Erie Canal, and later with the railway progress through 
 the aid of the Erie enlarged canal and the railways through the State, 
 has been able to retain about 60 per cent, of the through movement 
 east and west between the sea-board and the Western and Northwestern 
 States, but in several years it has had less than 60 per cent., other sea- 
 board terminal points, through the aid of railways and the development 
 of the Saint Lawrence route, having secured 40 per cent, of the move- 
 ment, and in some years more than 40 per cent. The gain in the volume 
 of movement between the interior and the sea-board has been large and is 
 annually increasing, but the percentage of gain has been larger at other 
 sea-board terminal points than at New Tork during the last ten years. 
 
 The value of the property transported on the New York canals 
 between the West and the East since 1837 has aggregated upward of 
 $7,000,000,000. The revenue from the tolls on this property has been 
 large, sufficient to pay for the construction of the canals and their main- 
 tenance, including the cost of the enlargement of the Erie and Oswego 
 canals. The ^canals of !New York have paid for themselves by their 
 earnings, witnout costing the people of the State a mill. 
 
 Under the New York State constitution of 1846, a provision was made 
 requiring the revenues from the canals to contribute $350,000 per annum 
 to the sinking fund of the general fund State debt and $200,000 an- 
 nually in addition for the defraying of the expenses of the State gov- 
 ernment, making an annual contribution from the canal revenues of 
 $550,000. The constitution also provided that when the revenues of 
 the canals, over and above their maintenance, were insufficient to make 
 this annual contribution of $550,000, a tax should be imposed on the 
 property of the State to make good such deficiency. It will be found 
 that the aggregate of these contributions from the canal revenues, with 
 annual interest on the same, aggregate a larger sum than the taxation 
 for canal purposes, with the annual interest on the same; so that the 
 people of the State of New York have had all the benefits of a canal 
 commerce, aggregating since 1837, $7,000,000,000, beside having a canal 
 system nine hundred miles in length that has paid for itself and its 
 maintenance from its earnings, without costing the people of the State 
 a dollar. The tonnage of the property transported on the New York 
 canals during the last twenty-three years is more than double the en- 
 tire tonnage of all the vessels entered the port of New York from all 
 foreign countries, including American and foreign vessels, and it is 
 equal to two-thirds of the entire tonnage of all foreign and American 
 vessels entered all the ports of the United States from all foreign coun- 
 tries during the same period. 
 
 The value of the property transported on the New York canals during 
 the twelve years ended with 1872 aggregated $2,940,888,522. The 
 value of the entire foreign exports from the city of New York to all 
 foreign countries during the same period was $2,272,157,286, showing 
 that the value of the property transported on the New York canals, 
 during the last twelve years, has exceeded the value of the entire for- 
 eign exports from the port of New Xork during the same period by 
 $666,731,236. 
 
 The trade passing through this State by the railways is large and an- 
 nually increasing, and the grand aggregate value of the entire trade 
 between the interior and the Atlantic sea-board terminal points by rail 
 and water-lines is estimated at $1,300,000,000 per annum ; so that the 
 
TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOAED. 
 
 89 
 
 •question of a change in the course of this vast trade is one of not in- 
 considerable moment to the terminal points interested in securing it. 
 The terminal point at the sea-board that can give the cheapest trans- 
 portation to and from the interior will secure the largest volume of this 
 vast and annually increasing trade. The State of New York, from her 
 position and the facilities she has provided through her canal system 
 and her railways, has secured a very large proportion of this trade here- 
 tofore, but she will continue to hold it no longer if she fails to give 
 cheaper facilities than other sea-board terminal points. The proposed 
 improvement of the Saint Lawrence route, by the enlargement of the 
 Welland and Saint Lawrence canals, which are only sixty-nine and one- 
 half miles long, will afford a cheaper transportation than the State of 
 New York, with her present facilities, can give, for it will extend ocean 
 navigation practically to Chicago, Milwaukee, and Duluth. The only 
 remedy for the State of New York to adopt to hold the vast trade of 
 the west, and its increase, is the enlargement of the Erie and Oswego 
 canals for boats of about six hundred tons burden, and such enlarge- ' 
 ment, with the application of steam as a motor for moving boats, will so 
 cheapen the transportation from the lakes to the Hudson River as to 
 secure the desired result, the retention of the trade of the Northwestern 
 States. 
 
 By Mr. Sheeman : 
 
 Q. At this point I would like to have you give the cost of transporta- 
 tion over the Erie Canal, when completed according to the present plan 
 which, I believe, is being acted upon. 
 
 A. The present plan contemplates the doubling of all the locks on 
 the Erie Canal, only two of which are not now doubled ; the removal of 
 the bench walls on the eastern division of the Erie Canal, extending 
 about eighty miles, where the bottom of the canal is now 42 feet wide, 
 and making it 52 feet wide, and the deepening of the canal its entire 
 length, giving full 7 feet of water where 'it is now less than 7 feet. 
 The average freight during the season of navigation in 1872 received 
 by the carrier, including State tolls and Hudson Eiver freight, from Buf- 
 falo to New York, on grain was $4.28 per ton of 2,000 pounds, and less 
 the State tolls $1.38 per ton, leaves a net freight to the carrier of $2.90 
 per ton of 2,000 pounds, including the river freight, is at the rate of 5.8. 
 mills per ton per mile, which covers the carrier's expenses and profits. ' 
 The auditor of the canal department, in his report on the tolls, trade 
 and tonnage of the canals for 1872, page 34, gives the average per ton 
 per mile received by the carrier, at 10.2 mills, including State tolls. In 
 the same report he gives the average amount per ton per mile received 
 by the carrier from 1856 to 1872, as follows : 
 
 1865 10.10 mills 
 
 1866 10.00 mills 
 
 1867 9.00 mills 
 
 1868 8.80 mills 
 
 1869 9.20 mills 
 
 1870 8.30 mills 
 
 1871 •. 10.02 mills 
 
 1872 10.02 mills 
 
 1856 11.10 mills 
 
 1857 7.99 mills 
 
 1858 7.97 mills 
 
 1859 .•. 6.72 mills 
 
 1860 9.94 mills 
 
 1861 10.08 mills 
 
 1862 9.59 mills 
 
 1863 8.76 mills 
 
 1864 10.15 mills 
 
 The average amount received by the carrier, including the State tolls 
 for the seventeen years ended with 1872, was 9.14 mills per ton per mile, 
 including the carrier's profits, which is an average from Buffalo to Troy, 
 three hundred and forty -five miles, of $3.15 per ton, and from Buffalo to 
 
90 TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOAED. 
 
 New York, five hundred miles, of $4.57 per ton of 2,000 pounds. State 
 Engineer Taylor, in his special report of 1863, on canal enlargement, 
 makes the cost per ton per mile on the present Erie Canal 2.16 mills, and 
 1.04 mills per ton per mile with a re-enlarged Erie Canal, of capacity 
 for boats of 600 tons. . . 
 
 The transportation can be done cheaper than it is now, and must be 
 done cheaper than it is done now, or can be done with the present facil- 
 ities, to compete with the proposed improved facilities by the Saint Law- 
 rence route. To hold the trade the rate of transportation from Buffalo 
 to New York should not exceed $1.50 per ton, on the average. With 
 $1.50 per ton, average lake freight, and $1.50 per ton, average freight 
 from Buffalo to New York, the foreign export and import trade of the 
 interior can be prevented from going by the Saint Lawrence route. 
 
 Q. What extent of improvement is necessary ; what size locks on the 
 Erie and Oswego Canals 1 
 
 A. The present locks in the Erie and Oswego Canals are 18^ feet wide, 
 and admit boats with the present lock-gates 96£ feet long and 17£ feet 
 wide. The prism of the Erie and Oswego Canal, on the present plan, 
 is 52 feet at the bottom, 70 feet at the water-line, and 7 of water. The 
 proposed improvements to the Erie and Oswego Canals are to be found 
 in State Engineer Taylor's special report of 1863 on canal enlargement, 
 transmitted to the legislature of New York February 4, 1864. This 
 report proposes the construction of one tier of locks in the Erie and 
 Oswego Canals, by the side of the present locks, each 225 feet long 
 between the quoins, and 25 feet width of chamber at the water-line of 
 lesser level; the deepening of the canal 1 foot, giving throughout its 
 entire length 8 feet of water. This improvement contemplates the 
 removal of the bench-walls on the eastern division of the Erie Canal, 
 which extend a distance of about eighty miles. The estimated cost of 
 this improvement, as giveu in the engineer's report aforesaid, is, with all 
 stone locks, $14,405,888.15; with wood locks, $12,619,040.15; with wood 
 and stone locks, $13,049,946.64. His estimate for the enlargement of 
 the Erie Canal from Buffalo to Albany is, with all stone locks, 
 $11,902,888.15 ; with all wood locks, $10,718,040.15 ; with wood and stone 
 locks, $10,985,946.65. 
 
 State Engineer Taylor gives the relative cost of transportation as fol- 
 lows: 
 
 Old Erie Canal, 4 feet water, boats 76 tone, cost 4.14 mills. 
 Enlarged Erie Canal, 7 feet, water, boats 210 tons, cost 2.16 mills. 
 Ee-enlarged Erie Canal, 8 feet water, boats 690 tons, cost 1.04 mills. 
 
 The practical capacity of the Erie Canal to more tonnage eastward, 
 with the present locks, is less than four million tons in a navigation sea- 
 son, which is limited by the lockages. The chambers of the present 
 locks are 18 feet wide, and the present class of boats navigating the Erie 
 and Oswego Canals are 17J feet wide, with a draught of 6£ feet of the 7 
 feet of water in the chambers of the locks. Through the small space at 
 the sides and under the boat the water in the lock must have time to 
 pass before the boat can fully enter the lock. There are several locks in 
 the Erie Canal of 10 feet lift. During the sitting of the constitutional con- 
 vention of 1866- 67 there was a breach in the Erie Canal near one of these 
 locks of 10 feet lift, on each side o/ which there had accumulated a large 
 crowd of boats. A special committee of that convention, accompanied 
 by the division commissioner, was delegated to make a trial test of the 
 lockage capacity of the canal, which was continued for seventy-two 
 consecutive hours, and the average time for the lockage of boats through 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 91 
 
 that lock, going eastward against the current, fully laden, was seven- 
 teen minutes, and going westward, partially laden and with the current, 
 eight minutes. There are, on a navigation season, about two hundred 
 days of practical canal navigation, equal to two hundred and eighty- 
 eight thousand minutes, in which time, with every moment occupied 
 night and day, seventeen thousand boats of 220 tons average cargo could 
 be locked, giving 3,740,000 tons capacity for eastward movement in a 
 navigation season. By enlarging the locks 25 feet wide, with boats 22 feet 
 beam, carrying 600 tons cargo, the time of lockage would be much 
 quicker and the capacity of the canal would be largely increased. The 
 enlargement of the Erie Canal locks to 25 feet wide, in accordance with 
 the plans and specifications of the State engineer in a special report of 
 1803 on canal enlargement, transmitted to the legislature February 4, 
 1864, will give the Erie Canal a capacity to move freight eastward of 
 about 24,000,000 tons, in a navigation season, at less than one-half the 
 present cost. 
 
 A canal-boat, of the class now navigating the Erie Canal, can carry as 
 much as a railway freight-train of twenty-three or twenty-five cars, of 
 ten tons each. The average number of laden canal-boats that have 
 been dispatched from Buffalo, Tonawanda and Oswego, during the nav- 
 igation season of about two hundred and thirty days, has been equal in 
 tonnage to seventy-five railway trains daily, of twenty-five cars each, or 
 two hundred and fifty tons to each train ; and with the proposed enlarge- 
 ment of the Erie and Oswego Canals completed, their capacity to 
 pass freight eastward from Buffalo, Tonawanda and Oswego, would be 
 equal to four hundred and seventeen railway trains of twenty-five cars . 
 each, carrying 250 tons to each train. 
 
 My opinion is that the locks should be enlarged to at least 25 feet 
 wide, with boats limited to 22 or 23 feet beam, carrying about 600 tons 
 cargo. The transportation from Buffalo to New York, including nomi- 
 nal State tolls and carrier's profits, could then be done for $1.50 per ton 
 of 2,000 pounds. 
 
 Q. Three dollars a ton from Chicago to New York ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many bushels would a 600-ton canal-boat carry, and what 
 would be the cost from Chicago to New York per bushel I 
 
 A. A canal-boat of 600 tons burden would carry 20,000 bushels of 
 wheat and 21,428 bushels of corn, and the cost of transportation from 
 Chicago to New York would be 9 cents per bushel for wheat. 
 
 Q. What power do you propose to use for moving boats on the canal 
 and vessels on the lakes ? 
 
 A. Steam-power, giving six days for the voyage from Buffalo to New 
 York, and four and one-half days from Chicago to Buffalo, or ten and 
 a half days from Chicago to New York. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 ' Q. What power on the canal — propeller or chain-cable ? 
 A. I do not know, what will be the most practicable ; but I know from 
 experiments I have witnessed, that the direct application of power on 
 the chain-cable gives an economical use of power. I believe, from the ex- 
 periments I have seen and the accounts I have examined of experiments 
 made by others with the chain-cable system of towage, that boats can 
 by this method be moved at the rate of three to three and one-half miles 
 per hour very cheaply, more cheaply than by the ordinary screw propel- 
 ler, as with the chain-cable the application of power is direct and with- 
 
92 TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOAED. 
 
 out loss, while by the application of the screw propeller in shoal water 
 the loss of power is between 50 and 60 per cent., as per reported tests on 
 the Erie Canal and on the Grand Dublin Canal in Ireland. 
 
 By the Chairman: ( 
 
 Q. Can you state why the present system of warehouses, or the want 
 of warehouse facilities, is in existence here; why elevators are not built 
 here, as they are in the Western States ? 
 
 A. Because of attachment to old notions and old methods of business, 
 causing difficulty in substituting new improved and labor-saving methods. 
 It is only a few years since that all the grain arriving at the port of 
 New York was handled in half bushels, the measurers weighing every 
 tenth or twentieth half bushel, to arrive at the quantity by both weight 
 and measurement. It is only ten or twelve years since grain began to 
 be handled here by steam elevators. The measurers were opposed to 
 the introduction of elevators for handling grain, and when the first 
 attempt was made for their introduction the measurers and laborers of 
 the half-bushel era made war on the innovation, and all business was 
 suspended for a week or more. The canal-boats arriving could not be 
 unladen, and the ocean steamers and sailing vessels could not take in 
 grain cargoes, as the measurers during the contest would not work by the 
 old half-bushel method and would not permit the employment of float- 
 ing elevators to make the transfer from canal-boats to ocean-vessels, or 
 from canal-boats into grain warehouses. There was during a consider- 
 able time an entire suspension of business connected with the canal 
 and ocean commerce. The exporters were slow to believe that grain 
 could be transferred by steam at the rate of four or five thousand 
 bushels per hour, as was then done at Buffalo, Chicago, and other lake 
 ports. The owners of the steam elevators appealed to the mayor for 
 protection in their use, but the mayor averred that he was powerless to 
 give aid for their protection. A detailed force of the police was asked 
 for, but that force was in sympathy with the horde of measurers, and 
 was not available for protection. The owners of the elevators then 
 asked the mayor to give them the power to protect themselves, which 
 was granted. The steam-boiler of the elevator was perforated and stop- 
 cocks inserted, to which were screwed hose and pipes, and when this 
 preparation had been completed the work of elevating was commenced 
 by the floating elevator, which was no sooner in operation than down 
 swooped one or two thousand measurers with a picket force in advance 
 to take possession of the elevator. 
 
 The hose-pipes screwed on to the boiler were brought in requisition 
 and hot steam was played on the attacking force and dispersed it. 
 This broke the back of the rebellion among the measurers, and since 
 that time the half bushel has been dispensed with, and the grain since 
 that time has been mostly handled through the medium of floating or 
 stationary steam-elevators. 
 
 The grain-storage capacity in New York is now about 12,000,000 
 bushels, of which the Grain Warehouse Company's stores and elevators, 
 free and bonded, have 8,000,000 bushels storage capacity for grain. 
 The latter comprises Nos. 2 to 28 Commercial wharf, Atlantic dock, 
 Brooklyn; Nos. 1 to 11 Clinton wharf, Atlantic dock, Brooklyn; Nos. 
 70 to 92 South pier, Atlantic dock, Brooklyn ; and Nos. 1, 2, and 3 Co- 
 lumbia stores, South Ferry, Brooklyn. There are besides a large num- 
 ber of floating-elevators. These grain warehouses and floating-elevators 
 all transfer grain by steam power. Some of the grain warehouses have 
 facilities for blowing, screening, and drying grain, comprising all the 
 iate improvements. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 93 
 
 Granaries in the port of New York — Bates established May 1, 1873. 
 
 STORAGE. 
 
 Storage, labor, and weighing sound grain, except oats and malt, in- 
 cluding guarantee first ten days, 1£ cents per bushel. 
 Oats and malt, first ten days, f cent per bushel. 
 Storage, every succeeding ten days, '£ cent per bushel 
 
 INCIDENTAL CHARGES. 
 
 Screening and blowing grain, J cent per bushel. 
 
 Weighing and transferring in store, including screening, 1 cent per 
 bushel. 
 
 Spouting on board of ships, including trimming, $8 to $10 per 1,000 
 bushels. 
 
 Bagging on board ship, &c, $6.25 per 1,000 bushels. 
 
 Delivering on board of coasting vessels, if trimmed, .25 cents per 100 
 bushels. 
 
 Delivering on board of coasting vessels, if not trimmed, 15 cents per 
 100 bushels. 
 
 Shovelling for preservation, 20 cents per 100 bushels. 
 
 Bagging, bag-holding, tying, and loading, each J: cent per bushel. 
 
 Bagging, with specific weight in each bag, f cent per bushel. 
 
 Boats and vessels, unloaded by elevators, including trimming, f cent 
 per bushel. 
 
 The railways have no grain warehouses or stationary elevators at their 
 terminal points in this city or on the Jersey shore opposite this city, but 
 soon will have them as one of the prominent, and, I think, two are soon 
 to have large grain warehouses of a million bushels capacity each for 
 the storage and transfer of grain,, receiving it directly from the cars and 
 delivering it directly to ships, at the terminal points of the several rail- 
 ways. If two or more of the railways provide these facilities, all will be 
 impelled to do so, or take a secondary position as carriers of grain. 
 These additional facilities will probably somewhat diminish the cost of 
 the transfer of grain at this port. It will give three or four million 
 bushels additional storage capacity, and inaugurate a competition be- 
 tween the new and old facilities that will have a tendency to reduce the 
 cost. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman: 
 Q. I will ask you now if your board is not rather opposed to them 1 
 A. I cannot say as to that; perhaps some members of the produce 
 exchange, who are interested in elevators at other points, might wish 
 the railways would not build elevators at their terminal points. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Is there any opposition ? I think the desire of all 
 members of the Hew Tork Produce Exchange, with perhaps the excep- 
 tion of those owning or interested in the present facilities, would be to 
 have the cost of transfer here as cheap as possible, 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. What is the present cost of transfer here of grain f ■ 
 A. About 2£ cents per bushel. 
 Q. From cars to steamer 1 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
94 
 
 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. How much from boat to steamer? ,„ nl , , , . 
 
 A. I think about 1J cents from boat to steamer It .should be done 
 at half a cent per bushel or at most f cent per bushel. The transfer 
 used to be made at Buffalo for half a cent per bushel | .cent being paid 
 by the lake vessels and \ cent by the grain. The facilities for -the- trans- 
 fer of grain at Buffalo are very large, larger than at any other point in 
 the country. There are thirty-two grain-elevators in that city. I have 
 witnessed there the arrival of three and one-half million bushels of 
 grain in forty-eight hours by lake vessels, the whole of which was un-. 
 laden into store or transferred to canal-boats in two days and the lake- 
 fleet delivering it was started up the lake again before the expira- 
 tion of the forty-eight hours. The canal-boats at Buffalo receiving the 
 grain by transfer from the lake vessel or from store do not pay any- 
 thing for the transfer, except perhaps for trimming in the canal boat 
 when the grain is spouted into it. In many cases this trimming is done 
 by the crew of the canal-boat. When others are hired to' do it the 
 charge is or used to be $1.50 to $2. 
 
 Q. Is there any difference in the condition of gram arivmg here by 
 boat or rail? 
 
 A. There is sometimes. If the grain is dry and in order when shipped I 
 do not know that there is any difference. .Shippers prefer corn coming 
 by canal if it is in order when delivered here, as it is a pretty good 
 guaranty that it will make the ocean voyage without damage on the 
 route, but that received by rail in small quantity there is less certainty 
 of its remaining in order on the passage to Europe. When corn or 
 wheat comes fifteen hundred miles by lake and canal and is delivered 
 here in order shippers are pretty well assured that it will come out in 
 good order on the other side, so that the advantage is rather in favor of 
 that received by water if the grain is designed to be exported. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. What proportion of the total tonnage you spoke of comes to the 
 .seaboard by artificial water channels and what proportion by rail % 
 
 A. I cannot give the exact proportion. About nine and a half mil- 
 lion tons is annually delivered at sea-board ports by all routes north of 
 the Ohio river, which is about the aggregate of the eastward through 
 movement by all routes rail and water. The delivery of flour and 
 grain at New Tork for the three years ended December 31, were : 
 
 1870. 
 
 By rail. 
 
 By water. 
 
 By rail. 
 
 By water. 
 
 1873. 
 
 By rail. 
 
 By water. 
 
 !Flour, "barrels 
 
 Wheat, bushels 
 
 Corn, bushels 
 
 Oats, bushels 
 
 Barley, bushels 
 
 Rye, bushels 
 
 Peas, bushels 
 
 Malt, bushels 
 
 Total grain, bushels. 
 Hour to bushels 
 
 Grand total, bushels 
 
 3,323,407 
 
 6, 229, 456 
 
 4, 331, 637 
 
 3, 893, 774 
 
 236, 474 
 
 81,518 
 
 15, 560 
 
 312, 179 
 
 846, 526 
 17, 673, 803 
 
 4, 898, 274 
 
 5, 772, 180 
 3, 721, 755 
 
 476, 263 
 182, 954 
 742, 940 
 
 3, 006, 998 
 
 4, 947, 460 
 
 6, 668, 214 
 
 6, 384, 383 
 
 622,279 
 
 23, 950 
 
 31, 258 
 
 857, 352 
 
 572, 861 
 
 21, 847, 404 
 
 20, 127, 872 
 
 6, 039, 246 
 
 2, 389, 671 
 
 1, 048, 693 
 
 83,523 
 
 534, 994 
 
 2, 569, 127 
 
 5, 285, 363 
 
 10, 466, 638 
 
 7, 410, 377 
 
 995, 845 
 
 14, 767 
 
 95, 553 
 
 437, 529 
 
 15, 100, 598 
 10, 617, 035 
 
 33, 468, 169 
 4, 232, 630 
 
 18, 954, 896 
 15,034,990 
 
 52, 071, 673 
 2, 864, 305 
 
 24, C97, 072 
 12, 845, 635 
 
 37, 700, 799 
 
 33, 989, 886 
 
 54, 935, 978 
 
 37, 542, 707 
 
 .473,780 
 
 10,951,270 
 
 30, 335, 919 
 
 51, 047, 750 
 
 2, 968, 596 
 
 478,031 
 
 87,039 
 
 708,528 
 
 50; 570, 133 
 2,369,900 
 
 52,939,033 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 RECAPITULATION. 
 
 95 
 
 By water. 
 
 By rail. 
 
 Total 
 bushels. 
 
 Per cent, 
 "water. 
 
 1870, bushels 
 
 1871, bushels, 
 
 1872, bushels 
 
 37, 700, 799 
 54, 935, 978 
 52, 939, 033 
 
 31, 717, 633 
 33, 989, 886 
 37, 542, 707 
 
 69, 418, 432 
 88, 925, 864 
 90, 479, 740 
 
 54.3 
 61.8 
 
 58.5 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Answering generally, what do you estimate the relative cost of 
 transportation by water and by rail to be ? 
 
 A. The cost, as given by State engineer, on the old Erie Canal, was, 
 with boats of 76 tons, four feet of water, 4.14 mills per ton per mile ; 
 with present Brie Canal, 7 feet water, boats 210 to 230 tons, 2.16 mills 
 per ton per mile ; with re-enlarged Erie Canal, 8 feet water, 690-ton 
 boats, 1.04 mills per ton per mile ; on l&e Hudson Eiver, with barges 
 drawing 7£ feet of water, carrying 500 tons to 690 tons, % to 1 mill per 
 ton per mile. 
 
 The rate on the lakes, from Chicago to Buffalo, for the seven years 
 ended with 1872, including the carriers' profits, has been 2£ mills per ton 
 per mile. With all large-class vessels on the lakes carrying 1,500 to 
 2,000 tons each, the rate, including the carriers' profits, will not exceed 
 1£ mills per ton per mile. 
 
 The State engineer gives the cost of movement on the Erie and Central 
 Bail ways, including the carriers' profits, as given in the canal auditor's 
 report, as follows : 
 
 Years. 
 
 Per ton 
 per mile. 
 
 Xears. 
 
 Per ton 
 per mile. 
 
 
 Cents. 
 2.725 
 2.79 
 2.255 
 2.15 
 1.90 
 1.845 
 2. 055 
 2.215 
 2.53 
 
 1865 
 
 Cents. 
 3.035 
 2.685 
 2.285 
 2.258 
 
 1857 
 
 1866 
 
 
 186T 
 
 1859 
 
 1868 
 
 
 1869 
 
 1861 
 
 1870 
 
 
 1862 
 
 1871 
 
 
 1863 
 
 1872 J.... 
 
 1.605 
 
 1864 
 
 
 
 
 For seven months of the year, during the period of open canal navi- 
 gation, the rates are much less than indicated by the foregoing averages 
 for the year, and during the five months of the year in which canal 
 navigation is closed by frost, the rates largely exceed the foregoing 
 season averages. 
 
 The question has been frequently propounded, how cheap can rail- 
 roads carry freight without loss? During the summer-months, when 
 there is competition from the water-routes, all the great through-lines 
 of railway reduce their tariffs about four dollars per ton below their 
 winter-tariff rates, and in the former frequently carry freight in compe- 
 tition with the water-lines at lower rates than can possibly pay a profit, 
 or lower than they can carry all classes of freight for. Wheat has been 
 transported from Buffalo to New York by rail, during the summer, iu 
 competition with the Erie Canal, at 12 cents per bushel of 60 pounds, 
 which is equal to $4 per ton of 2,000 pounds, or on a distance of four 
 hundred and forty-one and three-fourth miles, from Buffalo to New 
 
96 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 York, by the Central and Hudson Eiver Eailways, is 9 mills and. T ^ f 
 a mill per ton per mile. That this rate is lower than a railway can do- 
 business for, at a profit, will be shown by the results of a year's business 
 on the Central and Hudson Eiver Eailways at this rate for transporta- 
 tion. These railways transported during the fiscal year ended Septem- 
 ber 30, 1872, 4,393,965 tons, way and through, east and west, and the 
 mileage of this freight was equal to 1,020,908,885 tons transported one 
 mile. This mileage, at 9.05 mills per ton per mile, will produce a reve- 
 nue of $9,239,225.41. 
 
 The annual financial statement of the New York Central and Hudson 
 Eiver Eailways for the fiscal year ended September 30, 1872, was as 
 follows : 
 
 EARNINGS. 
 
 Prom passengers ,$*>, 662, 006 82 
 
 From freight. 16,259,646 79 
 
 From miscellaneous sources 2,659,022 26. 
 
 Total 25,580,675 87 
 
 DISBURSEMENTS. 
 
 For maintenance of way - 5,153,497 67, 
 
 For maintenance of rolling-stock. „ 4, 150,599 2J5 
 
 For transportation expenses 7,142,339 40 
 
 For interest.. 1,030,371 63 
 
 For roadways, bridges, &c 712,236 84 
 
 For rent of leased roads 131,996 66 
 
 For two dividends of 4 per cent, each 7, 244, 831 78 
 
 Total 25,565,873 28- 
 
 The receipts for freight were $16,259,646.79, but if the business of 
 the year had been done for a uniform rate of 9.05 mills per ton per mile, 
 the revenue from freight would have been only $9,239,225.41 ; and if 
 this sum had been placed on the account-current for the year, these 
 roads would have paid from their earnings their current expenses, in- 
 terest, rent of leased roads, &c, and would have had a surplus for 
 dividends on $89,428,300 stock of $244,410.40, or about i of one per 
 cent., besides a surplus $14,802.64. 
 
 If a uniform rate of If cents per ton per mile had been received on a 
 mileage of 1,030,908,885, it would have produced a revenue of 
 $14,037,497.16. Assuming that the cash cost of these two roads is 
 $60,000,000, and that $29,428,300 is watered stock, and that a divi- 
 dend of 8 per cent, per annum, or $4,800,000 aggregate dividend, be paid 
 on- the cash cost of these roads, and all other items left unaltered in the 
 annual financial statement, except the freight earnings and dividend, a 
 uniform rate of If cents per ton per mile would have paid the dividend of 
 $4,800,000 on $60,000,000 of cash stock, and would have left a balance 
 for operating the roads of $237,484.79. It is evident from the foregoing 
 statements that about If cents per ton per mile for freight is about as low 
 as any railway can afford to carry freight, even if the road is built on a 
 cash basis, and even this rate is lower than could be afforded, taking the 
 operating expenses for a period of five or ten years. These two railways 
 can make a more favorable showing than any other two railways in 
 the country. Most railways less favorably situated for freight and 
 passenger traffic could not afford to carry freight for a uniform rate of 
 less than 1£ cents per ton per mile. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 97 
 
 The railway charges on freight on 1,000 miles of road would be — 
 
 Per ton. 
 
 At 7iJ mills per ton per mile $7 50 
 
 At 8 mills per ton per mile ; 8 00 
 
 At 8^ mills per ton per mile 8 50 
 
 At 9 mills per ton per mile 9 00 
 
 At 9J mills per ton per mile 9 50 
 
 At 10 mills' per ton per mile 7 10 00 
 
 At 10J mills per ton per mile 10 50 
 
 At 11 mills per ton per mile 1 11 00 
 
 At 11J mills per ton per mile 11 50 
 
 At 12 mills per ton per mile 12 00 
 
 At 12£ mills per ton per mile 12 50 
 
 At 13 mills per ton per mile . : 1 13 00 
 
 The summer rate on fourth-class freight from Chicago to Baltimore 
 and Philadelphia is $8, to New York $9, and Boston $10, while the 
 winter rate on the same class of freight is $11 to Philadelphia and Balti- 
 more, $12 to New York, and $13 to Boston. Without some radical im- 
 provement in railway transportation resulting from new inventions, 
 diminishing the cost of operating or lessening the wear and tear of 
 rolling stock, rates of freight from the far interior by rail cannot be 
 much, if any, less than they have been in the past. 
 
 The railway charges for services rendered are, for long distances, too 
 onerous for the prosperity of the producing classes, especially for heavy 
 products of great bulk and cheapness. The vast interior of the conti- 
 nent, north and south, east and west, holds within its embrace beauti- 
 ful streams, majestic rivers, and broad lakes, so distributed that by 
 artificial aids they can be navigably connected for the great and grand 
 purpose of carrying on the interior commerce of the continent with the 
 sea-board. The remedy for what the railway system cannot do cheaply 
 enough to meet the wants and necessities of the people, is to provide 
 great interior national water highways, equal in magnitude to the rail- 
 way system. This would involve the improvement of the extended 
 lines of steamboat navigation on the navigable-river system of the inte- 
 rior, and the construction and completion of the' artificial works pro- 
 posed, and the re-enlargement of those already in operation, connecting 
 the river system with that of the lakes, and the lakes with the ocean, 
 on a scale of magnitude equal to the present and prospective require- 
 ments of the interior commerce of the whole country. 
 
 Complete this national water system, with the railway system as 
 feeders to it, and the results to be attained will be so magnificent as to 
 claim the admiration of the world; so attractive as to invite to us its 
 best people and its greatest wealth, and so powerful for good as to bind 
 the whole country together in indissoluble bonds for all time. 
 
 Benjamin P. Baker, first vice-president of the New York Cheap 
 Transportation Company : 
 
 Mr. Chairman and gentlemen: I regret that our president is not 
 with us this afternoon. I should be glad to have him address you. I 
 have but a word to say. As you are aware, and the honorable senators 
 who compose the committee are aware, we are very young as an organ- 
 ization. You were present, as I believe, at the christening. We are 
 not a week old. We have been for years enduring the evils of the 
 present system of canals and railway management, and have a feeling 
 sense that something must be done. It was this feeling that seemed to 
 have entered the breast of almost every merchant who originated the 
 7T 
 
98 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 call for this meeting and has brought us to our present position. W fr 
 are learners rather than setting ourselves up to teach. We have deter- 
 mined to try to see the particular cause of the trade of New York 
 leaving us so systematically as it is doing, and are satisfied that the 
 necessity exists of a double-track railway, of increasing our water com- 
 munications through the State by canals, and a great improvement in 
 our terminal facilities. 
 
 The grain arriving by canal is now cared for perhaps as well as it 
 can be. The system is a very good one, and I hear no complaint of it. 
 I have had some experience in the storage of grain in the warehouses, 
 and there is no complaint, but the arrival of grain by railways is sub- ■ 
 ' jecting the merchants to a great deal of trouble in its delivery, delays 
 and often loss. 
 
 It has been inquired why it was that we had no ware-houses on the 
 railways. It is simply because the railway companies have not built 
 them, though, as you are aware, the railway companies own all the 
 water-front where their railroads terminate, and it would be impossible 
 for any private citizens to build railways that should have the advant- 
 age of water-front and be connected ; build elevators where they could 
 have the connection by cars and by steamers, unless they bought of the 
 railroad company, or by some contract entered into by the two, and that 
 could only be done, probably, by giving them large rebates, as was the 
 case in some contracts entered into by the Erie road, and not fulfilled, 
 and our only hope is to encourage, and, by our exertions, to induce the 
 railway companies to build these elevators. 
 
 We want to handle our goods much more cheaply in New York, and, 
 turning our attention to that, we shall develope every effort and every 
 plan that shall curtail the expenses. We think the handling of goods 
 can be done at half the present price. 
 
 In regard to the railway system we are decidedly in favor - of double- 
 track railways, and shall do all that we can to encourage the people of 
 New York to get some plan to restore to us the commerce we formerly 
 enjoyed. 
 
 Mr. Thurber will say a word to the committee on one or two points 
 upon which you comrilimented us in asking us to give our views, and I 
 shall now introduce him : 
 
 F. B. Thurber, secretary of the New York Cheap Transportation 
 Company. 
 
 Mr. Chatrman. The principal things we have to say are in regard to 
 some of the points you inquired about. One word in regard to the fast- 
 freight lines. I have prepared a little statement showing the impres- 
 sions that the mercantile classes here now have. They may not be 
 strictly reliable in all cases, but will only be interesting as regards the 
 general estimation in which these lines are held. It perhaps would be 
 hard to get at just the status of all these lines, except by a committee 
 authorized to send for persons and papers. 
 
 In your communication of August 6, asking information as to the 
 workings of the fast-freight lines, you state that it is represented to 
 you that our system of railway transportation makes it necessary to 
 employ such organizations as the Eed Line, Blue Line, Empire Line, 
 National Line, &c. ; that if the railroad companies allow their cars to 
 be run all over the country they would often find themselves without 
 stock ; that the administrative work of taking care of the roadway, 
 locomotives, and employes, is the proper work of the railroad company ; 
 that great charges are taking place in our system of railway economy, 
 &c. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 99 
 
 The above are the arguments used by the champions of these lines to 
 defend their system, but the opinion prevails among business men that 
 they are fallacious. There are different types of these lines, some own- 
 ing' their own cars and some using the cars of the roads over which they 
 run. It appears, however, that nearly all of them have, in their board 
 of management, officials of railways over the tracks of which they run, 
 and they are very generally looked upon as a Credit Mobilier arrange- 
 ment by which the officers of railways are enriched at the expense of the 
 stockholders of their roads. Certain it is that those lines maintain ex- 
 pensive organizations in the way of officers, officials, &c, that a very 
 expensive system of drumming for freight exists ; that the managers 
 of these lines accumulate wealth rapidly, and that the number and ex- 
 tent of these lines is yearly increasing ; that the stockholders of the 
 railways claim that they get but small dividends while shippers and re- 
 ceivers of freight complain of high rates. It is also certain that they 
 tend to interfere with the regular freight business of railways, instances 
 are not unfrequent in the West of shippers of grain applying at railway 
 offices for cars, and are told they have none, but the fast-freight line 
 across the street can supply them with any number. Thus, if no other 
 evil in connection with this system exists, the shippers of freight have 
 to support two distinct organizations, and in many instances two sets of 
 stockholders. 
 
 In regard to the care of roadway, locomotives and employes being the 
 legitimate work of the railway company, as well might it be said that 
 the legitimate business of A. T. Stewart is to care for his buildings, 
 machinery, and minor employes, and let some of his principal employes 
 select certain remunerative departments of his business and run them 
 to suit themselves, because Mr. Stewart is unable to keep track of his 
 business. It is quite probable that if Mr. Stewart was foolish enough 
 to do, such a thing, and his employes became rich and independent, that 
 both branches of the business would desire to make money, and there 
 being a dozen instead of one person to receive dividends, the pubUc 
 would not get their goods on quite as well a margin of profit as they 
 now do, and especially would this be the case if a certain section of 
 country was obliged to buy their goods at that particular establishment, 
 as certain sections of country are obliged to send their merchandise over 
 the ro'ads running through that section. 
 
 So far as the business management of railways are concerned, the 
 same fundamental rules apply that are necessary to the management of 
 private business. We believe that the plan of maintaining expensive 
 separate organizations adds materially to the cost of transportation, and 
 that the same efficiency in operating could be arrived at by establishing 
 inexpensive bureaus in the general organization, that is now arrived at 
 by the cumbrous and expensive system of separate organizations. 
 These remarks also apply to sleeping car and express companies. 
 
 In regard to the watering of stocks or inflation of railroad obligations, 
 which was one of the points also touched upon, I would say that a large 
 portion of the ideas embodied in this communication were taken from 
 data compiled by Mr. George O. Jones, of Albany, who, I believe, has 
 furnished the committee with a copy of pamphlet, and which, as time is 
 valuable here now, it may be infringing too much upon your patience 
 to read. I have made some extracts which, as they are not long, I 
 might, perhaps, read to you. On pages 4, 5, and 6 of the pamphlet you 
 will find the very point embodied here: 
 
 " It is a notorious fact that the greater part of the corruption to be found in our 
 halls of legislation proceeds from the great corporations while seeking legislation 
 
100 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 opposed to the interests of the puhlic. As an evidence of the great amounts annually 
 /orse than squandered in this way, the following extract from the report of theljra. 
 lative committee, which recently made the investigation into the management of the 
 Erie Railway, may he interesting and instructive : 
 
 " It is further in evidence that it has been the custom of the managers of the Ene 
 Railway, from year to year in the past, to spend large sums to control elections and to 
 influence legislation. In the year 1868, more than §1,000,000 was disbursed from the 
 treasury for " extra and legal services." For interesting items see Mr. Watson s testi- 
 mony, pages 336 and 337. . . 
 
 " Mr. Gould, when last on the stand and examined m relation to various vouchers 
 shown him, admitted the payment, during the three years prior to 1872, , of large sums 
 to Barber, Tweed, and others, and also large sums drawn by himself, which might 
 have been employed to influedce legislation or elections ; these amounts were charged 
 in the ' India rubber account.' The memory of this witness was very defective as to de- 
 tails, and he could only remember large transactions ; but could distinctly recall that 
 he had been in the habit of sending money into the numerous districts all over the 
 State, either to control nominations or elections for senators and members of assem- 
 bly. Considered that, as a rule, such investment paid better than to wait till the men 
 got to Albany, and added the significant remark, in reply to a question, that it would 
 be as impossible to specify the numerous instances, as it would to recall to mind the 
 number of freight cars sent over the Erie road from day to day. (See testimony, p. 
 556.) 
 
 "It is not reasonable to suppose that the Erie Railway has been alone in the corrupt 
 use of money for the purposes named ; but the sudden revolution in the direction of 
 this company has laid bare a chapter in the secret history of railroad management, 
 such as has not been permitted before. It exposes the reckless and prodigal 'use of 
 money, wrung from the people to purchase the election of the people's representatives, 
 and to bribe them when in office. According to Mr. Gould, his operations extended 
 into four different States. It was his custom to contribute money to influence both 
 nominations and elections. 
 
 " What the Erie has done, other great corporations are doubtless doing from year to 
 year. We have here simply an acknowledgment of the fact. Combined, as they are, 
 the power of the great moneyed corporations of this country are a standing menace to 
 the liberties of the people. 
 
 " The railroad lobby flaunts its ill-gotten gains in the faces of bur legislators, and in 
 all our politics the debasing effect of its influence is felt." 
 
 The report further says : 
 
 " This vast interest has grown up mostly within the last twenty-five years. And 
 the railroad system, in its material aspects, is, to-day, a proud monument to the indus- 
 try, enterprise, and progress of the country and of the age, and should receive gener- 
 ous treatment. But in this free growth there is danger. Restrictions which seemed 
 ample when these enterprises were in their infancy, and when the country was strug- 
 gling for internal development, are now quite inadequate. At the time of the forma- 
 tion of our governments, State and national, and for many years afterward, the water 
 routes were the great channels of internal commerce ; no one dreamed that they could 
 ever be controlled by a few men. But railroads have revolutionized traffic; and the 
 danger that was not then imagined is now an existing calamity. These franchises, 
 which were granted to subserve public uses, and to which private interests were com- 
 pelled to yield, have been, in many cases, perverted to speculative purposes, and the 
 establishment of practical and grinding monopolies, reducing to a moiety the income 
 of the producer, and increasing to exorbitance the prices of the necessaries of life to 
 the consumer. 
 
 " Corporate wealth has gone on increasing to an alarming extent, vast private for- 
 tunes have been accumulated by the men who control and operate our railways, and 
 these advantages they are not quick to relinquish. The business interests of the 
 country are demoralized by the mania of stock gambling rendered hazardous by the 
 constant watering of stocks, by which a fictitious value is imparted to railroad securi- 
 ties, which would otherwise be stable, and traffic is hence unduly taxed to secure 
 them a value. Another evil is the indiscriminate bonding of towns and municipalities 
 for railroad construction. Withal come rivalries and the continual reaching out lor 
 additional advantages through legislation. 
 
 "The evil is deeply seated, and no superficial remedy will be adequate for its cor- 
 rection No law t|iat the committee can recommend at this late day of the session 
 will reach the entire case, but they will take the liberty to suggest that, in their opin- 
 ion, the relief will be found in some enlightened Bysteni of general railway legislation, 
 regulating the rate of transportation, prohibiting the issue of fictitious stocks, and 
 punishing with heavy penalties the misappropriation of the funds of the company by 
 the managers thereof, whether to their personal uses or to corruptly influence legisla- 
 tion affecting their interests, " 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 101 
 
 " There should also be enacted some uniform system for the keeping of railroad 
 accounts and the manner of declaring dividends, so that, while on the one hand the 
 stockholder may share in the actual profits, on the other, the obligations of companies 
 shall not be increased from year to year by loans to make good fictitious statements 
 of net earnings. On one subject, at least, your committee believe that legislation 
 should be had without delay. There is now under existing statute absolutely no 
 security to stockholders in regard to the leasing of one road by auother. A majority of 
 the boad of directors may, without consent of their stockholders, lease for such a 
 period of years, and upon such terms as would be equivalent to a consolidation of in- 
 terests. 
 
 " Your committee believe that some proper restriction is necessary not only to pro- 
 tect the public, but the railroad interest itself, and the law should apply not to one 
 company alone, but should be general in its scope. They have therefore prepared, and 
 presented in connnection with their report, a bill regulating leases of connecting roads, 
 and prohibiting the leasing of competing parallel lines. 
 
 " Jji conclusion, you committee have endeavored to discharge the duty delegated to 
 them so far aB time and circumstances would allow, with a desire to deal justly by all 
 parties, and herewith submit the evidence taken, with their conclusions thereon, 
 respectively for the consideration of the House. 
 
 " ISAAC H. BABCOCK, 
 " C. S. LINCOLN, 
 "AMHERST WRIGHT, JR., 
 " CHARLES CRARY, 
 " JACOB B. CARPENTER, 
 
 " Select Committee. 
 " May 16, 1873." 
 
 TJnder date of August 6, 1873, -while actiDg as chairman of the tem- 
 porary committee appointed by the merchants, to call a mass meeting 
 on the transportation question, 1 received a communication from you 
 requesting information in regard to the " Watering of Stocks " and " The 
 operation of fast-freight lines." In answer to the request to furnish 
 specific information on the first point, I would say that strictly reliable 
 and authentic figures can probably only be obtained by a committee 
 authorized to send for " persons and papers," but the facts are suffi- 
 ciently notorious that substantially correct information on this point is 
 plenty. In a pamphlet issued about a year since by George O. Jones, 
 of Albany, N. T., we find the following : 
 
 The New York Central Railroad Company was organized in 1853. Its road consisted 
 of several roads built by people living along their lines connecting the principal cities 
 between Albany and Buffalo. The capital stock of the companies representing these 
 roads, at the time of their consolidation, amounted to $20,799,800, on which it was 
 claimed that $16,852,870 had been paid in. Their funded and floating indebtedness at 
 that time was $2,511,105. That the amount claimed to have been paid in was largely 
 in excess of the actual cost of the property represented, there can be no doubt. To il- 
 lustrate : The capital of the TJtica and Schenectady Company was put in at $4,500,000, 
 while the facts in relation to that company are, that it never issued any bonds ; that 
 its capital stock never exceeded $2,000,000, and that $1,500,000 was every dollar ever 
 paid by the stockholders of that company out of their own funds for the construc- 
 tion and equipment of their road. It is true the stockholders of that company paid 
 the additional $500,000, making its full paid capital $2,000,000, but not until the com- 
 pany had declared and paid to its stockholders an extra cash dividend amounting to 
 that sum out of the surplus earnings of its road. The additional $2,500,000, (making 
 the $4,500,000,) it was claimed, had been expended on the property of the company, 
 also out of the surplus earnings of its road. 
 
 The Utica and Schenectady road was about 78 miles in length, or one quarter that 
 of the New York Central after its consolidation ; therefore taking the actual cost of 
 that road ($1,500,000) as a basis, it will be found that the cost of the whole line of the 
 Central did not exceed $6,000,000. Assuming, however, that it cost $10,000,000, which 
 it never did, and, admitting the cost of the Hudson River road (now consolidated with 
 the New York Central and known as the New York Central and Hudson River Rail- 
 road,) to have been what it purported to be in 1851 when it was opened over its whole 
 line, viz, $9,305,551.09, and add $2,000,000 paid in 1864 and $2,000,000 said to have been 
 expended on the Athens branch of the central, and it will be found that the entire actual 
 cost of the property now represented by the New York Central and Hudson River Rail- 
 road Company (to its stock and bondholders) was less than $25,000,000. Interest 
 was always regularly paid on all bonds issued by the companies consolidated into that 
 
102 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 company, and liberal and regular dividends on oil stock .except about $3 : 750 . 000 out 
 standing against the Hudson River company during the first /^y™" ™* 
 existence. To cover that deficiency that company issued ra 1864 f 4,000,000 of Us 
 stock for which only $2,000,000 wis paid by its shareholders since when regular 
 dividend have been paid on all stock outstanding N^rt it; th««^ mv«to» », 
 those securities have no reason to complain on that score. ™*°™*&^™*fo***S- 
 against the New York Central and Hudson River Railroad Company amount now to 
 $105,000,000, or more than four times the actual cost of its property to its stock and 
 
 °About one' year ago (in 1871) the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Railroad Com- 
 pany issued to its shareholders $15,000,000 of its stock upon their paying therefor 
 $5,000,000 or 33i per cent, on the amount issued. Before that issue was made its stock 
 was already outstanding for more than $4,000 for every $1,000 actually pari by the 
 stockholders of the companies consolidated into that company, and $35,000,000 would 
 more than cover all sums ever paid (by its stock and bondholders) for the property it 
 now represents. The present outstanding obligations of that company amount to 
 $75,000,000. , . -r. .„ 
 
 Every intelligent man in this country understands that the Union Pacific Railroad 
 was built by a combination of corrupt men inside and outside of Congress. That the 
 Government issued its bonds to aid in constructing that road to a greater amount than 
 was ever actually expended in its construction ; that it gave to the company repre- 
 senting it lands worth ten times its cost. Yet that company has issued a number of 
 other obligations, among which is $35,000,000 of its stock (for which no pretense is 
 made that one dollar has ever been expended) which is now (1872) being sold in the 
 markets of this country and Europe, and treated as if was. an honorable obligation, 
 on which the future internal commerce and travel of this country can be taxed 
 $3,000,000 a year, through all time, to pay dividends. 
 
 Within the last six years there has been issued over $60,000,000 of the stock of the 
 Erie Railway Company, and no one will dare to say there has been $5,000,000 of this 
 vast sum expended on its own property for the public welfare. It is well known that 
 this stock was sold at from 20 to 40 cents on the dollar, and that its proceeds were 
 appropriated to the personal uses of those who issued it. That vast private fortunes 
 were suddenly acquired by all who were prominently connected with the management 
 of that company at the time this stock was issued, and that everything went along 
 swimmingly with them until certain prominent public men in the city of New York, 
 with whom they were intimately associated, fell under the ban of a just public indig- 
 nation, when immediately a cry went up from the city and State demanding that the 
 legislature should pass laws removing the directors of the Erie Railway Company, and 
 others to protect the interests of its stockholders. These unselfish and patriotic stock- 
 holders, for whom so much public sympathy was manifested, would not consent, how- 
 ever, to a proposition urged before the railroad committees of both branches of the 
 legislature, viz, that the capital of that company should be reduced to the amount 
 paid for its stock. On the contrary, their modest demand was, (what to the credit of 
 those who issued this stock it must be said they never undertook to do, but which tho 
 present management is trying to accomplish,) viz, tax the commerce of this city and 
 an innocent public along the line of that road $5,000,000 a year to pay dividends upon 
 the par value of stock purchased at 20 cents on the dollar by the injured innocents 
 and shylocks who congregate in London, Frankfort, and Wall Street. 
 
 Mr. Jones states that the data from which his statements are made 
 in regard to the New York Central Eoad are to be found in the early 
 reports of the State Engineer and Secretary of State, and that the 
 details in regard to the Utica and Schenectady Eoad he obtained from 
 the late Mr. Erastus Corning and Mr. Chauncy Vibbard, who is now a 
 resident of this city. 
 
 The pretext under which the various waterings of the stock of the 
 New York Central and Hudson River road, and indeed most other roads 
 have been made is, that the increase of the value of their real estate 
 and other property gave them the right to do so ; but those who ad- 
 vance this reason ignore the fundamental law which gave them exist- 
 ence, that they are public institutions. Eailroads are endowed with 
 the right to take private property for public use, and upon the amount 
 of money actually invested everybody is willing that they should have 
 liberal dividends. But if that property increases in value a hundred 
 fold it is for the benefit of the public and the corporation has no right 
 to that increase in value. If additional buildings are necessary let 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 103 
 
 bonds be issued to the extent necessary, and let the charges on freight 
 and passenger traffic be arranged so the interest on those bonds can be 
 regularly paid, but no road has any right to inflate their stock a hun- 
 dred per cent., and then raise their tariffs high enough to pay dividends 
 # Tipon such inflated securities. Tet this has been done and even apolo- 
 gists are found for the capitalizing of surplus earnings, which in plain 
 English means that the charges for transportation have been exorbit- 
 antly high and a surplus is thus wrung from the people, then stock is 
 issued for this surplus, and, if necessary, rates are again raised to pay 
 dividends upon this stock, which is about equivalent to stealing money 
 from a man and asking him to pay interest upon the very money which 
 has been taken from him. 
 
 Whatever may be the pretext for watering the capitol stock of a pub- 
 lic corporation it is a notable fact that the real motive is to divert pub- 
 lic attention from the fact that it is paying larger dividends than it 
 should, and larger than is for the public good ; in other words it is 
 levying a heavier tax upon the people than they can or ought to stand, 
 hence the desire to divert attention. 
 
 The remedy which suggests itself to our minds is the passage of a 
 general law relating to railroads, prescribing a uniform system of keep- 
 ing accounts and prohibiting, under severe penalties, the watering of 
 stock or the consolidation or leasing of competing lines. 
 
 There are also some points which have been put forward which I de- 
 sire to mention here. 
 
 In regard to our views on this question they are certainly very crude 
 and ill-digested. The people have not combined a sufficient length of 
 time here to present, in the systematic way in which they could be, the 
 points we desire to establish. The railroad side of the question is more 
 systematically set forth, probably, by more able individuals. 
 
 It was remarked here yesterday, I believe, by some gentlemen that 
 railroad men were the smartest men in this country, and I think every- 
 body will be willing to admit that fact. 
 
 In regard to desirability of railway lines and canal lines in solving 
 this question of transportion it has been remarked, I believe, by a pre- 
 vious speaker that both, in his estimation, would answer. Many per- 
 sons take the ground that we have to look to canals entirely for our re- 
 lief, but it occurs to many of us merchants in New York that it will be 
 necessary to have both, and that there is one great point to be taken 
 into consideration in regard to the separation of freight and passenger 
 traffic. 
 
 All of our estimates as to the capacity of railways for carrying pur- 
 poses, and the cost of such transportation, have been based npon the 
 result of the system of mixed traffic, as it now prevails, and practical 
 railroad men are not wanting who demonstrate, on paper, that where 
 roads are devoted exclusively to freight, built for that purpose, and op- 
 erated in a manner appropriate to the carrying of freight, it can be 
 done as cheap or cheaper than it can be done by canal, and by a great 
 saving of time. 
 
 It was mentioned also that ultimately we must have five or six differ- 
 ent double-track roads exclusively for freight. There is one point which 
 I desire to bring forward for the consideration of the committee, and it 
 is this : that so far all the actual efforts that have been made, or are 
 under way for the doubling up of our freight facilities, or furnishing 
 double-track roads exclusively for freight, are being done in the inter- 
 nists of private parties. 
 
 It occurs to me that if we should have several double-track roads 
 
104 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 exclusively for freight, and if none of them were owned or controlled 
 by the people, that the saving which would result from such facilities 
 would very largely go into the pockets of railway corporations instead 
 of inuring to the benefit of the people ; and although there seems to be 
 a feeling throughout the country that it is desirable for Government tcf 
 have as little to do as possible with the construction of avenues of this 
 kind, yet it is a question whether the people can realize as fully the 
 benefits of roads exclusively for freight if constructed by private indi- 
 viduals, as they could if constructed and owned by the nation. The 
 financial difficulties in the way of constructing such roads would be for 
 private individuals very considerable. We can see that in the difficulty 
 that is now being experienced in floating the Northern Pacific financial 
 scheme, and any road built by private enterprise must necessarily have 
 its stock on the market in Wall street constantly. There is nothing to 
 prevent the present wealthy corporations from gradually absorbing that 
 stock until they obtain a controlling voice in the management, which 
 might interfere very seriously with the competion, which it is very 
 desirable that such a road should give. I merely bring that forward as 
 a point to be considered, not taking the ground that it is absolutely 
 necessary for the Government to do it. 
 
 The increase of terminal facilities here in New York is a point which 
 has been canvassed a good deal, and, as Mr. Baker remarked, is one of 
 the principal points to which this recently-formed association will give 
 their attention. This association is designed to combine all trades and 
 different interests here in New York, and already it has in its list of 
 members the leading trade bodies and trade interests. 
 
 Statement of Mr. George 0. Jones. 
 
 Mr. Ghaieman and Gentlemen oe the Committee : In discussing 
 the question under consideration, I should like, with your permission,, 
 to present it in a somewhat different light from any in which I have 
 heard it presented during your deliberations. In doing so, permit me 
 to prelude by stating that the views and opinions to which I shall 
 endeavor to give expression have been endorsed by over sixty thousand 
 voters of this State, through petitions to its legislature. 
 
 That they have been incorporated to some extent into the platforms 
 of new political organizations being formed throughout the country, 
 and, as I am informed, were the basis on which the Cooper Institute 
 meeting was organized, out of which grew the " New York Transports 
 tion Association" just represented by Messrs. Baker and Thurbee before 
 your honorable committee, such an indorsement encourages me to ask 
 for them your candid consideration. 
 
 Gentlemen, the duties of this committee should not, in my judgment, 
 end with any superficial investigation of the great question of cheap 
 transportation. It will be a sad disappointment to the people if your 
 report should be restricted within such narrow limits as relates to the 
 details of railroad management, the application of new motive-power 
 on canals or the regulation of commerce between the States, unless, it 
 should go back of all such details and recommend specific remedies for 
 present abuses and positive enactments for the future government of all 
 public highways, such enactments to be based on the fundamental prin- 
 ciple of public use, on which the whole question of cheap transportation 
 rests. 
 
 Public use as you are aware is defined to be, " in contradistinction to 
 private use." In regard to that provision of the constitution which 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 105 
 
 says " private property may be taken for a public use," and under 
 which all artificial public highways are permitted to be built, one of the 
 ablest judges this country or the world ever produced, says, the right 
 of eminent domain, or to take private property for a public use, being 
 arbitrary, is barely admissible under our system of free government, 
 and can only be tolerated or obtain a standing in court, when all acts 
 done under it are based on strict justice and for the public welfare. 
 
 The highways of a country are to the body politic what the veins 
 and arteries are to a human body. Unfold a map showing the rivers, 
 lakes, railroads and canals of this country, and place it alongside of 
 one showing the veins and arteries of a human being, and the resem- 
 blance will be found to be most striking. The laws regulating in either 
 case are still more similar in their character ; for to enjoy perfect health 
 circulation must be perfect throughout the whole body. Clog any por- 
 tion of it aud immediately that portion becomes diseased and its useful- 
 ness is impaired from that cause ; or if the blood becomes weak and 
 watery, and proper remedies are not applied to correct its tendency, it 
 will soon undermine the strongest constitution and cause the death of 
 the person so afflicted. Just so in relation to public highways. Clog 
 commerce by imposing oppressive burdens on the people for transport- 
 ing their products to a market, hamper them with unfair competition, 
 tax travel and property in transit to pay a return on capital never ex- 
 pended for the public welfare, and the effect will be that the industries 
 of a people so afflicted will become paralyzed, their energy prostrated, 
 their products valueless, and their usefulness as a portion of the body 
 politic becomes impaired from such causes. 
 
 Gentlemen. — These remarks have been made in order to prove that 
 the subject under consideration is fundamental in its character, that the 
 prosperity of every community depends on the laws relating to it. That 
 civilization is. based on it because it pertains to the facilities necessary 
 for the interchange of thought and property and finally that govern- 
 ment itself rests on it, for without fixed laws relating to public high- 
 ways, there would be no certainty of reaching the seat of govern- 
 ment. 
 
 Having said this much on these general principals, permit me to call 
 your attention to some of the changes that have taken place in the char- 
 acter of highways during the last fifty years as well as the laws by 
 which they are governed. 
 
 Fifty years ago railroads were unknown to the world, to-day they are 
 the almost universally accepted agency of commerce and travel among 
 the people. More than three quarters of all the sums paid for moving 
 persons and property in this country during the last year was paid for 
 the use of railroads, therefore they must be regarded as our common 
 highway. 
 
 Until within the last fifty years all laws relating to public highways 
 were so framed as to promote public interests, and until within that 
 time they were always under public control; the humblest citizen 
 knew his rights when on them and no king or lord dared interfere with 
 them. 
 
 It has been left for this intelligent age, and especially to the free and 
 enlightened people of this country to permit laws to be passed allowing 
 their public highways to pass under private control and become objects 
 of private speculation. 
 
 Mr. Chairman, and Gentlemen. — I hold that nearly all laws passed 
 within the last twenty-five years relating to railroads in this country 
 have been wrong in character, unjust in their operation, against public 
 
106 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 policy, iii violation of the principal of public use and consequently many 
 of them unconstitutional, null and void. 
 
 That all laws, which permit or allow the public to be taxed to pay a 
 return on more capital than has been actually expended for the con- 
 struction of railroads is in violation of public policy and therefore un- 
 constitutional. 
 
 That all laws which permit the stock or bond holders of railroads to 
 acquire an unreasonable or usurious return on the money actually ex- 
 pended for the public welfare is in violation of the definition of public 
 use, and the decision to which I have referred, and therefore that all 
 such laws are null and void and should be removed from the statute 
 books. 
 
 That all laws which permit rail-road companies to own more real 
 estate than is actually required to operate their roads is in violation of 
 that provision of the Constitution, which provides against the entail- 
 ment of property, and that all property so owned should revert to the 
 people for their use and benefit. 
 
 Gentlemen, it seems to me that the report of this committee and the 
 report of this legislature which follows it should relate principally to 
 railroads, believing them to be the improved highways of the age and 
 destined to supersede all others in their uses. 
 
 How far the power of Congress extends over them is a question for 
 its own decision. 
 
 If it shall be found that, under the Constitution, Congress has the right 
 to pass laws to regulate, or in any manner whatever interfere, with the 
 subject of cheap transportation over public highways, then, in the name 
 of common sense, let such laws be applied to the agencies in use by 
 the people, and not to those they have abandoned, or are abandoning. 
 
 If laws are passed, they should be uniform in their character and 
 based on the fundamental principles of public use. 
 
 Rates on passenger fare and tolls on freight transported over railroads 
 should not be permitted to exceed the sums required to pay their neces- 
 sary operating expenses, keep them in good and proper repair, and a' 
 fair return on the money actually expended for their construction and 
 equipment. 
 
 By the enactments and eforcementof such laws, the burdens imposed 
 on the necessaries of life between producer and consumer would be 
 reduced and the general prosperity of the people promoted. 
 
 The surplus earnings of railroads should be permitted to be expended 
 on their moving, handling, and terminal facilties, until the demands 
 of the public requiring their use is satisfied ; and as all the legitimate 
 claims of railroad companies have been met by the public when it has 
 paid those to which I have referred, it is evident that no further charge 
 should be made for the use of improvements paid for by the public, on 
 a public highway, declared for public use and for its benefit ; for it will 
 not be argued that public interests are promoted when a tax is levied 
 on the people for any such purpose. 
 
 To illustrate the extent to which railroads have been adopted by the 
 people as their agency of commerce and travel, I submit the following 
 figures taken from the official reports of the State engineer and survey- 
 or, and comptroller of this State, for the year 1873 : 
 
 From the comptroller's report for 1873. ' 
 
 the canals for the year 1872 
 
 i for moving property over the canals", 
 
 Total tax on commerce moved over the canals do 9 060 328 89 
 
 Amount paid for tolls on the canals for the year 1872 $3 060 328 89 
 
 Amount paid to boatmen for moving property over the canals do. . . .". . 6,' 000,' 000 00 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 107 
 
 From the Slate engineer and surveyor's report. 
 
 Amouut paid for transporting passengers over the railroads of this State 
 
 during the year 1872, $24,47-3,869 12 
 
 Do. for freight 62,384,202 20 
 
 Do. forother uses, mostly for moving property 6,211, 108 55 
 
 Total tax on commerce and travel for the use of the railroads of 
 this State for 1872 93,032,179 87 
 
 Irom the auditor of canals' report for 1873. 
 
 Numher of tons moved over all the canals of the State during the year 1872. 6, 673, 370 
 
 From tlie State engineer's report. 
 
 Number of tons moved over the railroads of this State during the year 1872. 27, 427, 415 
 
 • 
 
 Difference in favor of railroads 20, 754, 045 
 
 These figures it seems to me, should be conclusive with the commit- 
 tee as to which of the two systems is entitled to the greatest amount of 
 public consideration. 
 
 In instituting this comparison I have no desire to throw any obstacle 
 in the way of any aid that may be extended to the cause of cheap 
 transportation over canals. While 1 am compelled to differ with many as 
 to their future usefulness, I am not prepared, however, to say that if 
 some improved system for moving property over them is adopted, they 
 may not be continued useful adjuncts in moving the property of the 
 country for many years to come. But of one thing I am sure, and that 
 is, that ten years from now there will not be a canal-boat moved over 
 the canals of this State by animal power. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Pardon me ; I did not get your idea on canals. Do 
 you mean to say they will not be servicable unless they are run by 
 steam ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. What I desired to be understood as saying was, that un- 
 less some different mode is adopted, some mode by which property can 
 be moved in larger quantities, more rapidly and at cheaper rates than 
 by the one now in use, then, in my opinion, there will not be a canal- 
 boat run in this State ten years from to-day, and for the following rea- 
 sons : 
 
 First. That railroads are constantly increasing and improving their 
 facilities for handling property. 
 
 Second. That property moved over canals is not raised on the water, 
 but has to be brought to it by railroads. 
 
 Third. That railroads naturally, connect with railroads, and that prop- 
 erty, ohce placed- on board of a railroad-car, naturally remains there 
 until it reaches its destination, unless great inducements are offered for 
 trans-shipment, and, finally, that no enterprise can afford to stand still 
 in these days of rapid transmission of thought and property. Therefore 
 I hold that the present system must be changed or canals will pass into 
 disuse. 
 
 Mr. Thurber has read you some extracts from a pamphlet published 
 by me about a year ago, relating to the cost of certain railroads reach- 
 ing this city, and the burdens imposed to pay dividends on their fictiti- 
 ous or watered capital. 
 
 By reference to that pamphlet it will be found that the actual cost of 
 the property, now represented by the New York Central and Hudson 
 
108 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Eiver Railroad Company qever reached twenty-five million dollars, and 
 that, to pay 8 per cent, annual dividends on that amount, during the 
 next eighteen years, would require that the sum of thirty-six million 
 dollars should be added to the cost of transporting passengers and 
 freight, over that road during that time, while to pay 8 per cent, annual 
 dividends on its present capital during the same time will impose a bur- 
 den, for like purposes, amounting to one hundred and forty-four million 
 dollars, a blockade of one hundred and eight million dollars, against 
 ■which the business of this city must compete with other cities on the 
 sea-board, whose roads represent nearer their actual cost, estimating 
 that a tax, amounting to 3 per cent, on property in transit, will divert 
 it into other channels. 
 
 Against this burden the business of this city -will have to compete, 
 as against the business of all other cities on the sea-board whose roads 
 represent their actual cost. Estimating that a tax amounting to 3 per 
 cent, on transporting property will divert it into other channels, the 
 business men of New York (unless this obstruction is removed) will lose 
 the profits on handling many billions of property by reason of its being 
 marketed through other cities. 
 
 The figures in relation to the cost of the road named were obtained 
 from the secretary of state's office, the office of the state engineer and 
 surveyor, and statements of its late president, Mr. Erastus Corning. 
 
 The Chairman. Are these of a character you would be willing to 
 submit to the committee? 
 
 Mr. Jones. Certainly. 
 
 The Chairman. I mean the statements of the late president. 
 
 Mr. Jones. Most assuredly ; their truth is a matter of record and 
 public notoriety. 
 
 Some persons argue that competition is the only remedy to correct 
 abuses growing out of railroad management, and against which so much 
 complaint is now being made. In reply to that reasoning I will call 
 your attention to the report of a committee appointed by the English 
 parliament to investigate that subject. The conclusion to which that 
 committee arrived at was, " that competition always ends in combina- 
 tion," and that it could not be relied on to protect public interests, which 
 was best served by having uniform and reasonable rates charged at all 
 times for the use of railways. 
 
 Besides, there can be no fair competition unless every railroad built 
 has another built along its side, so that all the people living along its 
 line can enjoy the equal advantages of competition. 
 
 Again, some people hold that the actual value of railroad property 
 should be represented by its capital and commerce, and travel be taxed 
 to pay a return on that amount. It might as well be said that the land 
 occupied by Broadway is more valuable now than when it was the old 
 Albany post-road ; yet it is not that land was taken for a public use 
 the same as land is permitted to be taken for the construction of a rail- 
 road, and it has remained free from the day it was opened for public 
 use until the present time, and is as free to the beggar to-day as it is 
 to Mr. Stewart, Mr. Yanderbilt, Mr. Cooper, or any other of the million- 
 aires who use it; Let the opposite theory prevail and railroad compa- 
 nies could possess themselves of all the desirable property in the land 
 and manipulate it for private speculation. 
 
 Much stress is also laid on the fact that rates have been reduced from 
 time to time over certain roads, and for that reason the companies rep- 
 resenting them are entitled to great public credit, and that if they had 
 continued to charge the same prices they did years ago their income 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 109 
 
 would be much greater than they now are. In ruy judgment such 
 reasoning is not well founded. I believe that the real cause of the 
 growth of the cities along the line of the New York Central Hudson 
 Eiver road is due to the wisdom of the legislation which, twenty years 
 ago, restricted the charges on passengers' fares to two cents per mile — 
 that to 'that cause, more than any other, is due the dense population 
 and the intelligence of the people liviDg along its line. In conversa- 
 tion with a newspaper reporter the other day, Comodore Vanderbilt is 
 quoted as complaining of this restriction. Should it be removed and 
 prices advanced even one cent per mile, he would soon find the num- 
 ber of passengers diminishing, and the income from that source greatly 
 reduced. 
 
 Eailroads and their proper regulation has received more attention in 
 Belgium than in any other country in the world. There a mixed system 
 prevails, a portion of the roads being owned and controlled by the 
 government, while a portion are owned by corporations, who. manage 
 them under governmental direction. In that country all kinds of tests 
 have been made to find out how cheap railroads can be run, and so far 
 no point has been reached where by reducing their rates their income 
 has not been increased. Of course increased facilities are required, but 
 as fast as facilities are provided there is business to keep them all em- 
 ployed. 
 
 Gentlemen, the hour is getting late, and I know you must be worn 
 out with this long sitting; therefore I will not detain you any longer. 
 In the pamphlet to which allusion has been made you will find much 
 relating to this subject to which I have not the time now to allude. I 
 shall be pleased to furnish each member of the committee with a copy, 
 and if you should deem it of sufficient importance you will give the 
 suggestions it contains such consideration as they are worth. Thank- 
 ing you for your attention, I bid you goqd-day. 
 
 H. D. Faulkner, Broadway, K. X. Steam Cable Drawing Com- 
 pany. 
 
 I will occupy the attention of the committee but a very short time. 
 I desire to make a few remarks in reference to the Erie Canal, and in 
 that connection in reference to a new system of towage, which is now 
 being introduced on to the canal, and which has been in progress for 
 the last five years. I allude to the Belgian system. The principal in 
 volyed in this system has been in operation on the river Sein, between 
 Paris and Havre for the last fifteen or twenty years. There they use a 
 cable, or rather not a cable, but a chain, and this chain is passed around 
 a large drum-wheel, into which is inserted cocks about 8 inches in length, 
 which fit the links of this chain, to prevent the chain from slipping on 
 the drum, and as the drum turns around, it draws the boat along, ex- 
 erting the power of the engine upon the chain at the head of the boat. 
 The invention of what is known as the Fowler clip drum, which is a 
 wheel about the size of the driving-wheel of a locomotive, has obviated 
 the necessity of the use of the chain, and enabled the use of a wire 
 cable instead. This clip drum, the outer edge is set. with steel clips 
 which are moveable entirely around the wheel. There is a groove in- 
 serted in these clips, and the wire rope is placed in that groove, and 
 when the pressure comes upon it, it draws the clip together, and grap- 
 ples and prevents it from slipping, so that it accomplishes the same pur- 
 pose that the drum with the cocks does on the Sein, and enables the whole 
 power of the engine to be exerted upon the rope. 
 
HO TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 There have been in the last forty years an innumerable number of 
 attempts made on the Brie Ganal in place of animal power, bat every 
 attempt at doing this has failed to work for the reason that their ex- 
 pense was greater than thab of animal-power. And that trouble has 
 arisen from this cause, that all wheels working in the water,, whether 
 it be a screw or a side wheel, using the receding water as a fulcrum to 
 rest the lever or wing of the wheel over, the loss of power is found to 
 be all the way from 60 to 75 per cent, in a narrow channel of water like 
 a canal. The result is that so little of the power that is generated by 
 the steam could be used in the pulling of the load, so to express it, that 
 the expense has been found greater than that of animal-power. Hence 
 every attempt that has been made has failed, and for that reason and 
 that reason alone. 
 
 This principle is precisely the same principle as that used by the 
 horse when he steps his foot firmly upon the tow-path and exerts his 
 power upon the rope, every pound that the horse draws is felt upon the 
 rope — there is no loss of power. We do the same thing with this steel 
 cable. The way we manage the business is to submerge a cable the 
 whole length of the canal, or, say, the length of a level. It is fastened 
 at either end. We have a tug-boat to which is attached one of these 
 clip-drums vertically on the side of the boat. The rope is picked up 
 from the bottom of the canal, thrown over the wheel, the engine set in 
 motion, the rope guided on the wheel by pulleys, the engine is then 
 set in motion, and the tug moves along pulling upon the rope the same 
 as you would do if you were going to swim across a pond of water, 
 and instead of using your hands and feet you had a rope fastened 
 on the other side and pull over by that. This principle, as I say, 
 has been long in operation, and what is now going is two efforts, one 
 to put it on to the Erie Canal and another to put it on to. the 
 river Ehine. There is a company in Cologne which has all their ar- 
 rangements perfected, and the work is nearly complete to put it on the 
 Ehine for three hundred miles. The plan there is to tow the boats up 
 against the rapid current and let them come down with the propellers 
 with the current. That same principle will probably be introduced 
 upon the rivers of this country. The Austrian government has adopted 
 it for the Danube, the Eussian government for the river Volga. It has 
 already driven off from the Seine for the last fifteen or twenty years all 
 other methods of transportation. The whole business there for the last 
 fifteen years has been done by this system. It has been examined by 
 the best engineers of that country. It is approved by all the State offi- 
 cers of the State of New York, and we have recently, within the last 
 three or four days, received an unqualified report from the engineer of 
 the commission that was appointed to award the $100,000 prize to the 
 party who should discover or present the best system of navigating the 
 canals by steam. We are not permitted under the law to receive that 
 $100,000, because at the time the law was passed, at the motion of Mr. 
 Littlejohn on its final passage, this system was excluded from compet- 
 ing, theground for that being that the principle was already established 
 in Europe, and therefore it was not a new system. 
 
 But although we shall not be able to obtain the award for that reason, 
 at the same time our system will prevent any one else getting it under 
 this report. 
 
 We now have in operation thirty-one miles of this system upon the 
 western levels of the Erie Canal, and we are towing boats there for hire, 
 and have been for the last two or three months. 
 
 Arrangements are being made to extend it through the whole length 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. Ill 
 
 of the canal during the present winter, and at the opening of naviga- 
 tion next spring we hope to dismiss horses from the whole line, so that 
 hereafter the towage on that channel will be done exclusively by this 
 system. 
 
 The annual tonnage of the Erie Canal for the last several years has 
 averaged about six millions of tons. The capacity with the present 
 system of locks, according to the calculations made by the State Engi- 
 neer, is nine million tons, which with double locks of the same size we 
 have now extended through the whole length of the canal, the capacity 
 would be eighteen million tons, or three times its present capacity. 
 
 It is claimed by this system that we can work the canal up to very 
 nearly its full capacity. We can take boats through from Buffalo to 
 Albany at an average of from four to five days. The average time used 
 by horse power is from ten to eleven days, and has been- for the last 
 several years. It is expected, therefore, that this system will accom- 
 plish the object which is sought by those parties who are advocating 
 an enlargement of the Erie Canal. On that subject I have a word to 
 say. The great trouble in enlarging that canal is the supply of water. 
 It is found now in dry portions of the season that the feeders are inad- 
 equate to its present supply, and if it was enlarged to make it a ship 
 canal of the size suggested or proposed, the supply of water would be 
 totally inadequate unless a very large additional amount of water could 
 be obtained from other sources. 
 
 At the western end of the Erie Canal where the water is let in from 
 Lake Erie, for a distance of three miles there is a very rapid current. 
 It is nearly from five to seven miles to the hour. Heretofore it has been 
 with great difficulty that boats could be towed up that rapid, and very 
 large tugs of 30 and 40-horse power have been in request for that pur- 
 pose. Where they tow it by animal power they have to double up their 
 teams, put on from four to five horses, and then the utmost amount of 
 freight that they can take up is 100 tons to the boat, so that all west- 
 ern boats going to the west from here only take 100 tons. 
 
 The effect of our system will be that we can take up from eight to ten 
 boats at each tow, loaded to their utmost capacity, which we are now 
 doing every day. Now that is a very serious improvement in the navi- 
 gation of canals so far as western freights are concerned. It will enable 
 merchants, instead of sending 100 tons upon their boats, to send 200 
 tons, or to load their boats to their utmost capacity going west and east 
 also. We are towing down any number of boats that see fit to hitch on, 
 and our engine is only 25-horse power. And we can take ten, fifteen, 
 or twenty boats coming down the canal. We can take up from eight to 
 ten with the utmost ease. That is being shown every day. 
 
 Mr. Green, the engineer of the commission to award the $100,000 
 prize, has spent five days upon our boats, and has made an elaborate 
 report, covering some eight pages, in which he goes into very minute 
 particulars, showing the number of pounds of coal we burn, the amount 
 of steam generated, the power and the expense, and every point upon 
 that subject. The cost of towing canal-boats heretofore has been from 
 30 to 50 cents per mile by animal towage. It never goes below 30, and 
 it often goes up to 50. It averages somewhere from 35 to 40 cents per 
 mile for towing each boat, and that includes the light loaded boats going 
 west, as well as the heavy laden boats coming east. We find that we 
 can do that business for less than 30 cents a mile and make a good profit. 
 
 It was said that the estimate that was made of the cost of using each 
 of these tugs a day would be $44, but in practical use we find that the 
 actual cost will not exceed $25. Each tug takes a number of boats from 
 
112 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 five to ten m either direction. We have two tugs in operation, and the 
 plans are now in operation which, as I said before, will introduce the 
 whole system upon the Brie canal between now and the opening of navi- 
 gation in the spring. The plan will be to lay down to cables, one for the 
 down boats and one for tbe up, so that they never come in collision with 
 each other. All the boats going in either direction go on the same wire. 
 That simplifies the business, and enables the work to be done with great 
 ease and facility. 
 
 The Chairman. When you make up these flotillas, you construct 
 them with how many boats abreast? 
 
 Mr. Fualkner. Single file — hitched one right on after the other. In 
 passing a lock we first lock the tug through and, extend from that a 
 long tow-line to attach to the boat as the tug passes out. It draws the 
 tow of boats up to the lock, and when the lock is open we let the tug 
 run on the wire rope and it draws the boat in. When the gates are 
 opened, an extended tow-line from the first boat to the second goes 
 through with the same process. 
 
 The Chairman. But there is a break in the continuity of the cable 
 at every lock. 
 
 Mr. Faulkner. ]STot necessarily. It can be laid through and fast- 
 ened only at Albany and Buffalo. That is accomplished by cutting a 
 little corner off from the gates, so that when they swing around the 
 cable lies in that little space in the gates. In order to put it through 
 the locks, that would have to be done while the water is out of the 
 canal. In some of the locks we have already had it done. It is ex- 
 pected next winter to do it in all. When the gate swings around on the 
 bottom of the canal it sweeps the rope with it and always leaves it in 
 that condition. There is no fear of its getting under the gate. The 
 rope is about one inch in diameter, and we have found by actual experi- 
 ments in Europe that this rope will stand an average of 15,000 journeys, 
 so that it will last, on an average, ten years, conducting the transporta- 
 tion on the Erie Canal. It lays right on the bottom of the canal. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Do you not lose faster there by friction? 
 
 Mr. Faulkner. There is no friction by it. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. By the mud or whatever there is there? 
 
 Mr. Faulkner. There is no mud in the canal. There has been some 
 little trouble with snags on the western division, but when they are 
 taken out, as they will be, there will be no trouble. 
 
 Mr. Davis. How as to wash on the side of the canal f 
 
 Mr. Faulkner. It has about as much effect as a flock of geese sail- 
 ing on the canal. We can run from three td eight miles an hour. The 
 average speed would be about three miles. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the average speed now running? 
 
 Mr. Faulkner. About one to one and a half by horse power. 
 
 The Chairman. You expect to double it? 
 
 Mr. Faulkner. Yes, sir. Mr. Caleb informs me thev are now satis- 
 fied they can take the boats through in four days. Wehave never cal- 
 culated on doing it any less than five ; but if we can do it in five, that 
 will double the capacity of the canal, and with the locks enlarged, will 
 enable us to bring down 12,000,000 of tons instead of 6,000,000. 
 
 The Chairman. As I understand it, the basis of the calculating 
 capacity of the canal is the capacity of one lock? 
 
 Mr. Faulkner. Yes, sir. 
 
 Tbe Chairman. Can you pass the lock any more rapidly than with a 
 horse ? 
 Mr. Faulkner. Yes, sir ; because we have more power. Horses, you 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 113 
 
 "know, have to start the boat from a dead-lift, and it takes a minute 
 more time for a horse, or two of them, to draw the boat into the lock 
 .aud out of it. 
 
 I remarked that the State Engineer has made a calculation, upon 
 which he estimates the present capacity of the canal, worked up to its 
 full capacity, that is, taking one lock as the number of lockages that 
 can be made at a single lock, and that determines the capacity as 
 9,000,000 of tons, but with doable locks all the way through, he esti- 
 mates that the capacity would be 18,000,000 of tons ; so that if that 
 were done, and we had double locks all the way through, and this sys- 
 tem would accomplish what it purports to do, it would utterly obviate 
 the necessity of any enlargement or spending any more money on the 
 ^canals. 
 
 The Chateman. How much can you cheapen the transportation * 
 Mr. Faulknee. We think that the toll could be reduced one-half, 
 and give the State the same revenue they now receive. 
 The Chairman. How about the freighting ? 
 
 Mr. Faulkner. We think the cost of transportation by each boat 
 will be reduced from 10 to 15 cents per mile. It is now from 30 to 50. 
 
 The Chairman. Would there not be this danger : Under the present 
 system, anybody with a horse and a boat can run ; under your system, 
 the company that owns this improvement will have a monopoly? 
 
 Mr. Faulknee. I suppose the State will regulate that ; they own the 
 canals/ and have that right. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. I take it from your statement that this apparatus of 
 yours cannot be deposited in the canal and worked and at the same 
 time leave it free for the use of animal-power? 
 
 Mr. Faulknee. Oh, certainly ; it does not interfere with that at all. 
 Anybody else can run, but if we can do the business with so much more 
 rapidity and UDiibrmity the bulk probably will fall into our hands. The 
 tow-line could be dropped and let other boats run over ; we do it every 
 day now; we do not interfere with them. We have no control over 
 outside people. 
 The Chairman. Is there a patent ? 
 
 Mr. Faulknee. The clip-drum is patented and some part of the ap- 
 paratus, the grapple, &c. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you an exclusive right to use the cable on a 
 canal? 
 
 Mr. Faulknee. Tes, sir ; the legislature has given us that right for 
 fifty years. 
 The Chairman. You had better state the name of the association. 
 Mr. FAulknee. It is the New York Steam-Cable Towing Company. 
 As Mr. Jones alluded to the subject of railroads in Belgium, I will 
 state that I spent several months last year in Belgium, Holland, and 
 England in investigation of this question of steam-cable towiDg, and 
 also took some pains to look- into the subject of their railroads. In 
 Belgium and Holland they have a mixed system of railroads, the gov- 
 ernment owning about one-half and the private corporations the other ! 
 half. The result is that a competition exists which makes railroad 
 travel and transportation of freights cheaper than in any other country 
 in the world. Belgium builds her railroads by borrowing money at 4£ 
 per cent, interest. She issues her own debentures, and they are at a 
 premium in the market at 4£ per cent. She puts her freight and pass- 
 enger rates down to point that pays, but even at that point the govern- 
 ment are making money out of the enterprise constantly. Now in 
 8 T 
 
114 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Belgium, also, you can send a dispatch of twenty words, exclusive of 
 the address, anywhere in Belgium for 20 centimes. 
 
 Mr. Oonkling. How far is that 1 
 
 Mr. Faulkner. The telegraphs are some two or three hundred 
 miles. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. I spoke of telegraphic dispatches. 
 
 Mr. Faulkner. In England the price of telegraphing is one shilling- 
 for twenty words, and when I left there the subject was under discus- 
 sion of the adoption of the Belgium system as soon as possible, so that 
 undoubtedly the charge in England will soon be sixpence instead of one 
 shilling. 
 
 It is found, too, that the business of railroads in those countries where 
 the government controls them and the telegraph is very largely in- 
 creased since that system has been adopted. But on this question of 
 river and canal navigation, the best engineers in Europe are holding 
 conventions, and it is being introduced upon all the waters of Europe 
 pretty much, and we believe that the same system can be introduced, 
 after we get it on the Erie, on the Ohio and Mississippi rivers, with the 
 same marked effect that it has on the Erie, and that the business of 
 communication on those water-courses- can be cheapened at least oue- 
 half below what it is at present. That question about the rivers is- 
 being demonstrated by the operations now going on on the Ebine and 
 Danube. In Russia it is being introduced under the auspices of the 
 Bussian government. 
 
 I do know that I can enlarge on the subject. That gives you about 
 the facts of the case as they stand. Much more might be said in ref- 
 erence to the statistics of the West and its growth, and the amount of 
 grain to come forward; and there is one point worth considering. 
 There are a great many millions of people in England the fence between 
 whom and utter starvation is very slight indeed, who are more interest- 
 ed in this subject a great deal than our own people are, because the ad- 
 dition or subtraction of one penny per pound upon their meat, or one 
 penny per bushel upon the grain they consume, is a matter of enormous 
 importance to them, so that in considering this subject on the part of 
 the Government of the United States, you take into account the inter- 
 ests of the whole world- as it were. 
 
 We necessarily must become, as we are now, producers of the cotton 
 and the grain that is to supply the surplus demand in Europe for all 
 time to come. I see no country where that can be done as cheaply as- 
 it can be done here. 
 
 There is one other point I would be glad to make allusion to. That 
 is the question of incorporations. In England they have a limited liabil- 
 ity law. It has been in operation now for a long term of years, and they 
 have established a bureau of incorporations which has the charge of all 
 the corporations in the country, and these corporations all have to re- 
 port to that bureau not only the statistics of their business, but also 
 the issue of their stock, bonds, and everything that they do has to be 
 reported to this bureau. A record is kept; it is open to the inspection 
 of every citizen, iu the realm. 1 throw that out for your consideration. 
 I believe that if we had a general corporation law passed by Congress^ 
 under which all future corporations should be organized, and under 
 which all present corporations should have the privilege of re-organizing,, 
 drawn with particular care to the rights and interests of all parties, that 
 it would obviate many of the complications and questions that now ex- 
 ist. It would have another effect, it would have the effect of making 
 the corporations subservient to the will of the people, rather than to be 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 115 
 
 the masters of the people, because every corporation would be open to 
 the inspection of all its acts of every citizen throughout the country, and 
 the bureau would make its annual report to Congress as to all these 
 corporations, and the subject would be constantly ventilated. 
 
 Another very important feature of that is the accident department. 
 They always send a special agent or engineer to the scene of the disas- 
 ter, and his business is to examine every feature connected with it and 
 report, and if it results from a broken rail, or wheel, or any part 
 of the machinery, that portion broken is taken possession of by the 
 bureau and the proper test made by machinery of its strength, and reg- 
 ulations are adopted to prevent future accidents. I think that is a sub- 
 ject worthy of consideration, and which perhaps might be considered 
 favorably in this questiou of a general incorporation law. With these 
 remarks, gentlemen, and thanking you for your attention, I will retire. 
 
 Horace H. Day. Mr. Chairman : I want to say one word following 
 up the same subject. I will take but one minute. The difficulty was 
 referred to of the deficiency of water and the difficulty of increasing the 
 commerce in the canal. We all know the cost of the feeders has been 
 two or three times the cost of the main line of the canal. In investi- 
 gating this whole subjectof transit it has been one of the matters which 
 has received my earnest attention, and I have in an invention submitted 
 to the committee heretofore, and in one or two others, devised a method 
 so as to make it unnecessary to discharge any quantity of water from one 
 level to the other. Hence the difficulty of supplying water for a large 
 business in the canal is already obviated in theory and could be demon- 
 strated in practice. 
 
 There are two methods by which we can dispense with all passing of 
 of water from one level to the other. All the water then lost in the 
 canal would be from evaporation. That system is very simple, and 
 when the question comes up will be presented. 
 
 S. H. Dunan, General Auditor of the Erie Eailroad : 
 
 Mr. Chairman : I am somewhat disappointed by the non-arrival of 
 Mr. Blanchard, our Second Vice-President, and of Mr. Clarke, our Third 
 Vice-President, who have charge under our organization of the traffic 
 and its movement, and are better able to give the committee information 
 regarding the same than myself. 
 
 I was so clearly under the impression that Mr. Blanchard would be 
 here this morning to meet you, that I have given the subject under con- 
 sideration by you but little thought or preparation. 
 
 If the committee will allow me, however, to take for a text the letter 
 from its chairman, under date of the 3rd instant, to Mr. Hinckley, I will 
 answer their inquiries, so far as I am able, in the order in which they 
 are therein stated. 
 
 In answer to the first, I would say that there are four fast freight- 
 lines running upon the line of this road, as follows: The Great West- 
 ern Dispatch, Erie and Pacific Dispatch, the South Shore Line, and the 
 North Shore Line. These lines are practically all co-operative, that is to 
 say, the cars used on them respectively are owned by the roads forming 
 the lines, and the first two railroad companies pay a fixed commission 
 for soliciting the business ; the two latter they pay specific salaries for 
 that purpose. 
 
 In some of the minor details these lines differ in their organization 
 and management, but, so far as the relations they sustain to this com- 
 pany, they are substantially upon the same basis." 
 
116 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 I present the committee with copies of the contracts under which 
 these lines are operated. 
 
 The United States Express Company operate a line of express over 
 the Erie Eailway, furnishing the freight, loading and unloading the 
 same : this company transporting it from point of loading to point of 
 destination ; the express company collecting the tolls and paying over 
 to this company monthly 60 per cent, of the earnings. 
 
 "This traffic is carried upon our passenger trains and our fast-freight 
 
 ftrains. , . . . . , . 
 
 1 present the committee with a copy of the contract under which this 
 
 is operated. 
 
 The Erie and Atlantic Sleeping-Car Company, operated by the Pul- 
 -man Palace-Car Company, run a line of sleeping and drawing-room 
 coaches over the Erie railway— they furnishing the cars and keeping 
 the same in repair, except repairs and renewals made necessary by cas- 
 ualties happening through the fault and neglect of the Erie Company. 
 
 The Erie Company pay to the sleeping-car four cents per mile per car, 
 and furnish fuel, oil, &c, for lubricating, lighting and warming them. 
 I present the committee with a copy of the contract. 
 
 The relations which exist between the Erie Company and the freight 
 propeller lines on the lakes are set forth in detail in the contract be- 
 tween the Erie Company and the Union Steamboat Company operating 
 a line of eighteen propellers on the northern lakes. In connection with 
 this company I present a copy of this contract to the committee. 
 
 Mr. Blanchard will, if the committee desire it, furnish the informa- 
 tion called for in paragraph 3. 
 
 The facts called for in paragraph 4 are those of a general nature 
 which the committee desire, and such as would apply to the railroads 
 of the country in general. 
 
 So far as this company is concerned I am not aware that there has 
 been any issue of fictitious stock. 
 
 It is admitted of course that at the time of issue the company did not 
 receive the full face of some of the stock outstanding, but this of course 
 forms no exception to the general rule regarding corporations. 
 
 I refer the committee for further information upon this subject to the 
 report of the president, copies of which I have had the pleasure of 
 placing in the hands of your secretary. 
 
 Mr. Blanchard will take pleasure in speaking to the inquiries in par- 
 agraphs 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10. 
 
 With reference to paragraphs 11 and 12 the committee will find the 
 information therein called for very accurately set forth in the published 
 annual reports of the various railroad companies. In the report of the 
 president of this company before you you will find that it has cost, upon 
 the average of our whole business, about 92 cents per one hundred miles 
 per ton of paying freight moved. 
 
 It is pretty generally admitted that freight can be more cheaply 
 moved at a less rate per mile for long distances than for short, and at a 
 dess rate per ton for large amounts than for smaller ones. 
 
 All. things being equal I should say it would cost more to work aroaci 
 with steep grades than one with comparatively low grades. But to 
 show the effect of grades upon expenses I refer the committee to the 
 report of the Baltimore and Ohio Eailroad, a road known to have the 
 steepest grades, and more of them, than any of the other four trunk 
 lines, by which they will find that that road is worked at a less ratio 
 of expenses to earnings than any other of the trunk lines. 
 
TRANSPORTATION" TO THE SEABOARD HT 
 
 If you desire me to answer any particular statement relating to our 
 financial business 1 shall be happy to do so. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Will you favor the committee with your ideas as to 
 •what is meant there by fictitious stock. 
 
 Mr. Dunan. I do not know what the committee meant. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. In other words what do you mean when you answer- 
 that you know of no fictitious stock 1 
 
 Mr. Dunan. Watering of stock — the use of stock without any con- 
 sideration being given. 
 
 The Chairman. That was what was intended. It is intended ti> 
 cover the same ideas with what is usually called watered stock. 
 
 Mr. Dunan. There were one or two instances of the issues of stock 
 on the Erie road, in the shape of dividends, but that was completely 
 wiped out in value. That was in the early days, I think, of the New 
 York and Erie road, where I find in looking back — I have not gone 
 back into those matters as closely, probably, as I shall when I have 
 been with the road a longer time. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. I wanted to ascertain whether you comprehended the 
 term in the same sense the committee did. What is the capital stock 
 of your road. 
 
 Mr. Dunan. Eighty-six million three hundred and sixty-five thousand: 
 three hundred and sixteen dollars. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. What is the actual cost of the construction of the 
 road? 
 
 Mr. Dunan. That is a matter we are now working at, to find out what 
 the actual amount of money put into the Erie road has been. I may- 
 be able to furnish you with the information before the meeting of Con- 
 gress. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the length of your road ? 
 
 Mr. Dunan. I give table K, of the president's report, which gives the 
 entire length of the road. The amount of road and line actually owned 
 by the Erie road is five hundred and fifty-six miles. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Is your road a six-foot guage 1 
 
 Mr. Dunan. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Are your connections all six foot 1 
 
 Mr. Dunan. No, sir We have but very few lines with which we can 
 connect that are six feet. We-make connections with the Great West- 
 ern of Canada by lifting the car-body and changing the trucks. 
 
 Examination of Gen. Wm. C. Kibbe, of the Continental Eailway : 
 
 Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen of the Committee : I represent a 
 new railway enterprise, an enterprise which I think is destined in the. 
 near future to solve the problem which is now under consideration by 
 your committee, that of "cheap transportation" between the west and? 
 the Atlantic sea-board. I refer to the "Continental Eailway" now in 
 process of construction, which will connect New York City by rail with 
 Chicago and Council Bluffs, Iowa, designed as a double-track freight 
 railway. 
 
 Without consuming the time of your committee any further by gen- 
 eral remarks, I will briefly give you a history of this new and import- 
 ant enterprise, its prospects and capacity. 
 
 About three years .ago a few capitalists and engineeis, observing the 
 rapidly growing commerce between the Mississippi Valley and the sea- 
 board, or New York, and appreciating the following facts : 
 
 1st. That the center of production of the cereals and meats of the 
 
118 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 "West, as well the center of demand for the manufactures, merchandise, 
 iron, salt, and coal of the sea-board country, was gradually receding 
 westward, and that the area of country which could not be served in 
 its transportation by the canals was extending in scope beyond the ex- 
 pectations of any. 
 
 2nd. That the railways, now answering the purposes of trunk lines 
 between sections named, were originally built in fragmentary pieces, 
 solely for local purposes, and with no prospect in view of ever subserv- 
 ing the interests of through commerce, and consequently, when united 
 under one management for the purposes of through traffic, were neces- 
 sarily circuitous, indirect, even as between local points, and having, 
 been cheaply constructed, had heavy grades, and were exceedingly ex- 
 pensive to operate. These main lines, the New York' Central and the 
 Pennsylvania Central, the former was organized from seventeen original 
 corporations. That the companies controlling these corporations have 
 expended millions of dollars in improving grades and construction, and 
 will expend millions more, which will necessarily be charged to the cost 
 of transporting the products of the country, between the points named, 
 that the combined capacity of the existing roads and canals would soon 
 be found to be entirely inadequate to answer the increasing demands of 
 through commerce. These gentlemen^ therefore, had a reconnoissance 
 of the country made, upon the single indea of finding the shortest prac- 
 tide route for railway construction, between New York Bay and the 
 Missouri Eiver, or Council Bluffs, the result showing that a very large 
 saving, not only in distance, but also an equal saving in grades could 
 be made; the engineer remarking at the same time "that the counties 
 traversed were equal in resources to any other tier of counties in the 
 States crossed; that the Anthracite Coal Basin was crossed at its most 
 productive point ; that the line would also pass through three hundred 
 miles of bituminous coal fields, through the very centre of iron pro- 
 duction, and near the celebrated oil fields of Pehnsylvaua and Ohio." 
 
 Charters were next procured from the six States of Iowa, Illinois, 
 Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania and New Jersey. Companies organized, 
 and all duly and legally consolidated into one line under one company, 
 with full legal power to construct, maintain and operate a railway from 
 New York Bay to Chicago and Council Bluffs, so determined by the 
 best legal talent in the country. 
 
 The company has obtained the right of way for nearly nine hundred 
 miles, has secured local aid to the amount of about $4,000,000, have 
 reconnoissances over the entire route and surveys extending several 
 hundred miles on the line,, which establish the fact that the loss in cur- 
 .vature over an air line will not exceed 8 per cent, or ninety-six miles 
 from New York to Council Bluffs ; and that the maximum grade going 
 east (the way of the heavy traffic,) will not exceed 30 .feet to the mile ; 
 and going west, 40 feet to the mile, making a Saving in its alignment 
 between New York harbor and Chicago and Council Bluffs, over exist- 
 ing railways, equal to from 14 to 20 per cent ; while for the purposes of 
 moving freight, an equal percentage in grades will be saved by this 
 line. (The grades will be so uniform and light that a thirty-ton engine 
 will haul fifty cars at the economical rate of speed, of say ten miles per 
 hour, over any part of .the line without interruption,) which settles this 
 important question, that the " Continental Eailway " will not only become 
 the leading element in the railway system north, of the Ohio Eiver west- 
 ward to the Eocky Mountains, aggregating thirty thousand miles, but 
 occupying the shortest and best route, must become the axial line upon 
 which the various roads (now numbering more than fifty,) crossing the 
 
TRAN.SPORTATIOX TO THE SEABOARD. 119 
 
 •" Continental," will run their freight-cars coutaiuing the surplus products 
 of the sections of the country which they permeate ; and we believe it 
 probable that we can move this immense freight at from 6 to 8 mills per 
 ton per mile, charging a reasonable price for loading and unloading, 
 without other discrimination to any or all of these roads, and do the 
 same for our local traffic. We propose to operate this road at the most 
 economical rate of speed for freight, say from eight to ten miles per 
 hour. The company has secured territory for terminal purposes which, 
 with the proposed facilities, will have ample capacity to handle all the 
 freight which the road can haul, cheaply and expeditiously, and at the 
 same time will provide that ships of any given draught of water can 
 discharge and receive cargo direct from their warehouses and elevators. 
 The company has let the contract for grading, bridging, and furnishing 
 ties, from Tiffin, Ohio, to Chicago, upon which work has been done 
 amounting to one hundred miles of double track. With ample means 
 at hand, the road can be completed in three years, and in less time at 
 an increased cost, should the emergency demand ; and will have a 
 capacity of moving 3,500 cars each way, every day in the year. 
 
 Having given you the history of the enterprise thus briefly, I will 
 now iutrodnce Mr. James E. Abbott, who will interest you in explain- 
 ing the engineering phenomena of the line, which is. considering the 
 physical geography of the country, truly remarkable 
 
 Examination of Air. James E. Abbott : 
 
 Mr. Chairman, and Gentlemen of the Committee: General 
 Kibbe has explained to you briefly the history and organization of the 
 Continental Eailway as a corporation, encompassing its legal as well as 
 its financial history np to the present time, and has called on me to ex- 
 plain to you the project, as its engineer. 
 
 If you look upon this map spread upon your table, which is Colton's 
 map of the United States, you will seethe line of the Continental Bail- 
 way projected thereon, as closely as can be done, on a scale of twenty 
 miles to the inch. 
 
 This line starts from the Hudson Eiver, opposite the city of New Tork, 
 and passes across the States of New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indi- 
 ana, Illinois, and Iowa, to Council Bluffs, on the Missouri Eiver ; so di- 
 rect as at no time to deviate as much as twenty miles from an actual 
 geographical line, between its terminal points. Tou will also notice 
 that at or about Eensselaer, Indiana, the company have projected and 
 propose to build a connecting line with the city of Chicago. 
 
 It may be said that the location of the main line is defective, in not 
 running direct to Chicago, but we think differently, for what, to U3, ap- 
 pear good reasons. 
 
 The great advantage of a trunk-line is not to connect a great city 
 with the Atlantic sea-board, but to connect the whole great Northwest 
 with the sea-board, with as near a direct line as can be projected by en- 
 gineering skill, and add connections with principal cities and towns by 
 connecting lines ; hence this company, in the location of its grand trunk, 
 approaches so near Chicago, that it has deemed it necessary to project 
 and build a line to that city. 
 
 Tou will further notice that this tracing of detail surveys of Pennsyl- 
 vania and New Jersey, encompassing the most difficult points of the 
 entire line, is projected on a scale of five miles to the inch, and hence 
 shows the details of that part of the line very much better than the 
 first map exhibited. 
 
 The committee will further observe, that while the entire line from 
 
120 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 New York to Council Bluffs nowhere departs as much as twenty miles 
 from a true geographical line, those departures are not abrupt nor at a 
 sharp angle, but are sufficiently easy to not materially lengthen the 
 line. 
 
 The Hudson River, New York Central, and Lake Shore Railroads to 
 Chicago depart as much as one hundred and fifty miles from a direct air 
 line, and the Pennsylvania Central with its connections, eastward to 
 New York and westward from Pittsburgh to Chicago, departs more than 
 one hundred miles from a true line from New York to Council Bluffs. 
 
 The Continental Railway saves in distance from New York to Chicago 
 over the Pennsylvania Central Railway and its connections one hundred 
 and twenty-eight miles, and it saves in distance over the New York Cen- 
 tral Railway and its connections to Chicago one hundred and ninety- 
 four miles. These are the only two lines that naturally come in com- 
 parison with the great Continental Railway. 
 
 The Pennsylvania Railroad and its connections from New York to- 
 Chicago, and thence to Council Bluffs, is one hundred and seventy-eight 
 miles longer than the Continental Railway from New York to Council 
 Bluffs. 
 
 The New York Central Railway and its connections from New York 
 to Chicago, and thence to Council Bluffs, is two hundred and forty-four 
 miles longer than the Continental Railway from New York to CounciL 
 Bluffs. 
 
 The true geographical distance from New York to Chicago is about 
 seven hundred and twenty-seven miles. The Continental Railway con- 
 sumes in curvature about fifty-nine miles over that distance, making its 
 total alignment, say, seven hundred and eighty- six miles. 
 
 The Pennsylvania Central Railway consumes about one hundred and 
 eighty-seven miles in curvature, making its alignment about nine hun- 
 dred and fourteen miles. 
 
 The New York Central and its connections from New York to Chicago 
 consumes about two hundred and fifty-three miles by curvature, making 
 its alignment about nine hundred and eighty miles from New York to 
 Chicago. 
 
 Hence the truthfulness of the remark of General Kibbe, that this, 
 the Continental Railway, saves from 14 to 20 per cent, of distance from 
 New York to Chicago over existing lines of railroad. 
 
 So much for the question of geographical distance; but another ele- 
 ment enters into the calculation of the cost of transportation of as much 
 real importance, and that is the question of grades and curves. 
 
 The Continental Railway will have no grade going east of more than 
 30 feet to the mile, and going west, of more than 40 feet to the mile, and 
 no curvature to exceed 4°. The reason, outside of physical conditions, 
 for the grades being lightest from the West to the East is that the heavy 
 tonnage traffic is from west to east. 
 
 It will be found by a careful equation of grades of the existing rail- 
 ways with the grades and curves of the Continental Railway that a per- 
 centage can be saved in cost of operation by the Continental over 
 existing lines by its lighter grades and curves, practically as great as 
 the percentage of distance before claimed. 
 
 Therefore the result would be that if the present railroads carry for 1.4 
 per cent, per ton per mile, from the West to the East, a distance of one 
 thousand miles by their lines, the Continental Railway, with its easier 
 grades and curves, and operated as a freight railway, could carry the 
 same freight from the same points for about 8 mills per ton per mile,, 
 over its shortened distance, reference being had to the computations of. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 121 
 
 distances and grades before given. In proof of which reference is had 
 to comparative grades and curvature, and their effect upon the cost of 
 transportation by railways. (See Appendix.) You will observe by these 
 maps and surveys that this company has made every effort to secure 
 the shortest and easiest line between the East and West. To accomplish 
 this result, they from necessity have to do some very heavy work. It 
 may be added, that the railroads heretofore built and before referred to 
 have been constructed without reference to making trunk-lines between 
 the East tfnd the West, or between the Atlantic States and the States of 
 the Mississippi Valley ; therefore, winding about as they do from place 
 to place and town to town, they are well calculated to develop the local 
 business of a large area of country, but unfit to be through great trunk- 
 lines for the purpose of connecting with due economy remote parts of 
 the same country. While the Continental, with its great saving of dis- 
 tance, the directness of its line, the ease of its grades and curves, makes 
 a great national highway, that is capable with proper economy of opera- 
 tion to carry the products of the West to the East, and the manufactures 
 of the East to the West, at a price that will satisfy the wants of com- 
 merce. 
 
 Another illustration is pertinent. The Continental crosses the Alle- 
 ghany Mountains at an elevation of 1,440 feet above sea-level ; the 
 Erie Eailway at an elevation of 1,760 feet above sea-level ; the Phila- 
 delphia and Erie Eoad at an elevation of 2,006 feet above sea-level ; the 
 Pennsylvania Central Eailroad at an elevation of 2,161 feet above sea- 
 level ; and the Baltimore and Ohio Eailroad at an elevation of 2,620 feet 
 above sea-level; showing conclusively the advantage gained by the 
 Continental in its lower summit crossing of the Alleghany Mountains. 
 
 From the summit of the mountains, westward, advantages are gained 
 as follows : 
 
 The Continental Eailway passes the west line of the State of Penn- 
 sylvania at an elevation of 1,100 feet above sea-level; while the New r 
 York Central, the Erie, and the Philadelphia and Erie, descend from 
 their respective summits to the level of Lake Erie about 600 feet above 
 sea-level ; and the Pennsylvania Central descends to the level of the 
 Ohio Eiver at Pittsburgh about 700 feet above sea-level; and the 
 Baltimore and Ohio descends to the same river at Wheeling, say 630 
 feet above sea-level; thus showing that while the Continental crosses 
 the mountains of Pennsylvania at a lower summit than any of the other 
 roads named, when it has reached its greatest elevation, it loses less feet, 
 by from 400 to near 2,000, in reaching the great table-lands of the Mis- 
 sissippi Valley, than either of the roads named. 
 
 The data above given, in the case of the Hudson Eiver, New York 
 Central, and Erie Eailway, is taken from the State engineer's report of 
 the State of New York ; in the case of the Baltimore and Ohio, Penn- 
 sylvania Central, and Philadelphia and Erie Eailroads, is taken from 
 the various annual reports of those companies. 
 
 That part of the line of the Continental Eailway west of Pennsylva- 
 nia is remarkably direct in its alignment and easy in its grades, and iu 
 comparison with other roads encompassing the same territory, has great 
 advantages to insure ease and economy in operation. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. You say this road is graded a hundred miles west of 
 Tiffin. Have you made any arrangements to raise money for the eastern 
 part of the road? 
 
 Mr. Abbott. I will allow General Kibbe to answer all questions as. 
 to the finances of the road. I confine myself to the engineering. 
 
122 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEA.BOARD. 
 
 Mr. Sherman (to General Kibbe.) What progress have you made 
 towards raising funds? 
 
 General Kibbe. We Lave along tbe road secured about $4,000,000 in 
 the shape of local aid, which is to be appropriated as the road is com- 
 pleted. Of right of way we have about nine hundred miles secured. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. How much have you expended on the road you have 
 made, west of Tiffin 1 
 
 Mr. Abbott. The entire expenditure on the road of every kjnd up to 
 this time, including what had to be paid for the charters in the eastern 
 States, (for we had to buy them,) is about $4,000,000. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What is your estimate a mile, when completed, of the cost 
 of your road 1 
 
 Mr. Abbott. About $43,000 per mile. 
 
 If the Continental Eailway is built as projected and explained by 
 these maps, it will compare with existing lines as follows— that is, in 
 addition to the saving of geographical distance, as before explained, 
 they will be able to save, by the equation of grades and curves, an 
 amount of distance entering into the cost of maintaining and operating 
 a railway that may be very fairly set forth as follows : 
 
 Mr. J.' Edgar Thompson, chief engineer and president of the Penn- 
 sylvania Central Railway Company, gives this formula for the loco- 
 motives of equal power necessary to carry the same load up different 
 grades. A given train of cars, with one locomotive, on a level road, 
 up a — 
 
 Grade of 16 feet per mile, =1.87 locomotive. 
 
 Grade of 21 feet per mile, =2.15 locomotive. 
 
 Grade of 80 feet per mile, =6.13 locomotive. 
 
 Grade of 95 feet per mile, =7.28 locomotive. 
 
 (This calculation appears to be based on a train equaling in resistance 
 10 pounds per ton on a dead-level road, with a gravity of from 5 to C 
 tenths per pound per ton for each foot of grade per mile.) 
 
 Mr. J. McMinn, civil engineer, gives in a published report the follow- 
 ing as the result of experiments by a scientific and experienced railway 
 superintendent, from actual tests, on different grades, curves, and tan- 
 gents, on what is called good railroads : 
 
 The resistance of a train taken as 10 pounds per ton on a level, the 
 gravity as .4242 pound per ton, for each foot of grade per mile ; hence, 
 a locomotive that would haul 60 cars of 16J tons each on a level would 
 haul — 
 
 On a grade of 40 feet per mile, 22.2 cars. 
 
 On a grade of 52 feet per mile, 18.7 cars. 
 
 On a grade of 65 feet per mile, 16.0 cars. 
 
 On a grade of 90 feet per mile, 12.7 cars. 
 
 On a grade of 95 feet per mile, 12.0 cars. 
 
 On a grade of 102 feet per mile, 11.3 cars. 
 
 The above illustrations show how largely grades arid curves enter 
 into the cost of operating a railway ; also show remarkable harmony of 
 views by different authorities, judged from a different stand-point. 
 
 To continue our illustrations. In the case of the Pennsylvania Central 
 Eailway from Harrisburgh to Pittsburgh, the geographical distance is 
 less than one hundred and sixty miles. The distance by rail on that 
 road is two hundred and forty-eight miles, and the distance by equa- 
 tion, for all the purposes of transportation, is said to be eight hundred 
 and ten miles. 
 
 Mr. Farries, an engineer under the employ of the Pennsylvania Cen- 
 tral Eailway, in his fifth annual report to the Sunbury and Erie Kail- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 123 
 
 road Company, presented an elaborate calculation to demonstrate an 
 equation of distances, in which he publishes to the world the before- 
 mentioned statement of the equated distance from Harrisburgh to 
 Pittsburgh as equal to eight hundred and ten miles. These statements, 
 presented by Mr. Fairies, closely check with the formulas given as be- 
 fore by Mr. J. Edgar Thompson, &c. 
 
 We might add, the New York and Erie Eoad consumes, in ascending 
 nnd descending grades from the Hudson. JJi ver to Salamanca, C, 448 feet, 
 which, when equated; gives the equivalent of 322.4 miles of additional 
 distauce from grades alone, and eighty-seven and three-quarters miles 
 from curves, at the rate of 68° of curvature per mile of road, showing 
 this as a gross result of equated distances by that road. 
 
 GEOGRAPHICAL DISTANCE. 
 
 From New York to Salamanca 260 miles. 
 
 Kailroad distance by Erie Eailway 413 miles. 
 
 Equated distance by Erie Eailway 823.15 miles. 
 
 Or, 
 
 The geographical lines, as before 260 miles. 
 
 Consumed by curvature - 153 miles. 
 
 Consumed by grades and curves 410.15 miles. 
 
 Total 823.15 miles. 
 
 In other words, while the true or geographical distance between New 
 York and Salamanca is only two hundred and sixty miles, the equated 
 distance is 823.15 miles, showing that every ton of freight has to pay 
 for a transportation over 563.15 miles more than the geographical dis- 
 tance, or three miles for one. 
 
 To continue our investigation. The ascending and descending grades 
 of the New York Central Eailway from Albany to Buffalo is 2,781.6 
 feet. This equated, at 20 feet to the mile, would give 139.08 miles con- 
 sumed by grades alone. 
 
 Now, the geographical distance from Albany to Buffalo is 
 
 about 260 miles. 
 
 From Albany to Buffalo, by New York Central Eailway. . 297 miles. 
 
 Loss by curvature 37 miles. 
 
 Hence, the showing would be, geographical distance, Albany 
 
 to Buffalo 260 miles. 
 
 Eailroad distance 297 miles. 
 
 Equated distauce 436.08 miles. 
 
 Or, still in other words, 
 
 Geographical distance, Albany to Buffalo 260. 00 miles. 
 
 Kailroad distance, Albany to Buffalo 297. 00 miles. 
 
 Loss by lateral curvature 37. 00 miles. 
 
 As before, loss by lateral curvature 37. 00 miles. 
 
 Loss by grades, or vertical curvature 139. 08 miles. 
 
 Geographical distance « 260. 00 miles. 
 
 Total in equated distance 436. 08 miles. 
 
 (This does not give the loss by curves on the basis of 320° of curva- 
 ture per mile of level road.) 
 
124 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 The contiuuation of this investigation would show that 
 the Hudson River Railroad, from New York to Albany, 
 is in length -' !f3- 00 miles, 
 
 Geographical distance 1S1 - 00 miles ' 
 
 Loss by curvature 12. 00 miles, 
 
 To which add equated loss by grades, without curvatures. 19. 65 miles 
 
 Total loss on true distance 31. 65 miles, 
 
 The Pennsylvania Central, at Pittsburgh, being in geographical dis 
 tance about thirty miles east of the west line of the State of Pennsyl 
 vania, and by rail fifty from the State line. 
 
 The Erie road to Salamanca is about ninety geographical miles east of 
 the west line of Pennsylvania, and by rail one hundred and thirty-four 
 miles and the New York Central to Buffalo about eighty-five geo- 
 graphical miles east of the west line of Pennsylvania, and by rail one 
 hundred and fourteen miles. 
 
 The Pennsylvania Central, by rail from New York to 
 west line of Pennsylvania 494. 00 miles, 
 
 The Erie and Atlantic and Great Western, by rail from 
 New York to west line of Pennsylvania 547. 00 miles 
 
 Hudson River, New York Central, and Lake Shore, by rail 
 from New York to west line of Pennsylvania 554. 00 miles 
 
 The geographical distance from New York to west line of 
 Pennsylvania, on the location of the Continental Rail- 
 way, is 330. 00 miles 
 
 The rail distance will be about 367. 00 miles. 
 
 Loss by curvature in Pennsylvania and New Jersey, say . . 37. 00 miles 
 Add loss from equation of grades and curves 208. 64 miles, 
 
 Total loss 245. 64 miles, 
 
 To which add geographical distance 330. 00 miles, 
 
 Total equated distance from New York to west line 
 
 of Pennsylvania by Continental Railway 575. 64 miles 
 
 This comparison of lines is from New York City to west line of Penn 
 sylvania. 
 
 You will observe that in the case of the Continental the equated dis 
 tance is given for the entire distance between New York City and the 
 west line of the State of Pennsylvania. 
 
 That in the case of the Pennsylvania Central Road the equated dis 
 tance is given only from Harrisburgh to Pittsburgh, with the distance 
 by rail on other parts of the line added, not being able to secure the infor 
 mation to equate the other parts of that line between the city of New 
 York and the west line of Pennsylvania. 
 
 That in the case of the Erie Railway the equated distance is given 
 from New York to Salamanca, and the distance by rail added from there 
 to the west line of Pennsylvania, not being able to get the data for 
 further equations. 
 
 That in the case of the New York Central the equated distance is given 
 only from New York to Buffalo, with the distance by rail added from 
 Buffalo to the west line of Pennsylvania, not being able to secure the 
 data to equate the balance of the line. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 125 
 
 To recapitulate these figures, we would have — 
 Geographical distance from New York City to west line 
 
 of Pennsylvania 330. 00 miles. 
 
 Eail distance by Pennsylvania Central Eoad 494. 00 miles. 
 
 Equated distance, as before, Central Eoad 1, 056. 00 miles. 
 
 Eail distance, Erie and Atlantic and Great WesternEoud 547. 00 miles. 
 
 Equated distance as before 957. 15 miles. 
 
 Eail distance, Hudson Eiver, New York Central and Lake 
 
 Shore , 554. 00 miles. 
 
 Equated distance 712. 07 miles. 
 
 Eail distance, Continental 307. 00 miles. 
 
 Equated distance 575. 64 miles. 
 
 Notwithstanding the great saving as shown above, we confidently 
 believe that there can be even more favorable results gained than here 
 shown, and which results go to show more than anything else what is 
 needed to solve the question of transportation between the East and the 
 West. 
 
 Edwin D. Worcester, secretary of the New York Central and 
 Hudson Eiver Eailroad Company, and acting treasurer of , the Lake 
 Shore and Michigan Southern Eailway Company. 
 
 Mr. Chairman : I appear here representing the New York Central 
 and Hudson Eiver Eoad, and the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern — 
 . the former more particularly, however. The general subject referred to 
 this committee is one about which there has been a great deal said. It 
 is one that is properly considered very important. When considered in 
 all its surroundings it is much larger than anybody not thoroughly 
 familiar with it would, perhaps, suppose. It is one that we might talk 
 upon for weeks, perhaps, and then be almost as far from discussing all 
 there is of it as when we commenced. 
 
 When I saw the reference to this committee, I divided the subject up 
 in my own mind into what I supposed would be the two general heads 
 for their consideration, one being that of facility or the increase of 
 facility for transportation, the other the rates of transportation. Under 
 facility, I included the opening of new routes, or the development or 
 assistance of those already existing, and everything of that kind. Sub- 
 sequently a letter from the chairman of the committee made some sub- 
 divisions of the general heads, and so what I say, if it will be satisfac- 
 tory to the committee, shall be something on each of these subdivisions, 
 principally in the way of giving what may be called information derived 
 from my especial connection with the lines I represent, or from railroad 
 familiarity generally. Then, perhaps, I shall ask permission to make 
 some remarks with regard to the misapprehension that there is in the 
 public mind concerning railroads and their management. 
 
 The Chairman. I will say that the letter was prepared somewhat 
 hastily, and I hope you will not confine yourself specially to it. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. There always has been and is a great deal of mis- 
 apprehension on this subject. -It is hardly necessary to allude to the 
 remarks so frequently made about extortion and excessive rates, mixed 
 in with at least a moderate use of very peculiar expressions, (some of 
 which, perhaps, could hardly have been intended to convey the strict 
 meaning of the words actually used,) such as monopolies, oppression, 
 and even worse. 
 
 It is worthy of observation that in all the discussions upon this sub- 
 ject no railroad company has, either officially or through any individual 
 
12G TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 connected with it, appeared once in print. All that has been said about 
 it has been ex parte' entirely, and has been simply assertion, most ot it 
 wanting the essential element of intelligent information. In the course 
 of my connection with the New York Central Road, one that has had a 
 somewhat varied experience, I call to mind a great many cases in which 
 a thing was first supposed to be so and so, next asserted to be so, and 
 finally it grew to be a sort of conviction in the minds of even unpreju- 
 diced men, or those who intended to be so, that the thing was actually 
 so. But I never saw a case of the kind referred to in which, when the 
 facts were investigated and accurately ascertained, people were not 
 very much surprised at their misapprehensions. 
 
 So far as I know, there is no desire ou the part of any railroad com- 
 pany, and I certainly have none, to suppress a single fact, that is, pro- 
 vided it can be made use of for its strictly legitimate effect ; but to make 
 statements that do not cover all the surroundings and include all the 
 circumstances, aud that can be put into some other shape, is not, as ex- 
 perience has shown, a safe thing to do ; and it is for that reason that 
 there has been so little said with reference to a great many of the thiDgs 
 that are so frequently asserted of railroads, things absolutely wrong as 
 regards the actual facts. 
 
 About more or increased facilities : I do not think that the railroads 
 have any disposition, not the slightest, to oppose or do anything at 
 all to prevent the fullest development of transportation facilities be- 
 tween the so-called East and West, or elsewhere. With regard to any- 
 thing that is referred to this committee, there is no desire to question 
 any conclusion the committee may come to from the facts they may 
 ascertain, or to influence any recommendations they may decide to 
 make after the whole subject has been fully considered. They only de- 
 sire to give the information that should enable the committee to come 
 to proper decisions, and to explain. some of the things on width there is 
 gross popular misinformation. The last is outside, perhaps, of the sub- 
 ject-matter actually before the committee, but the occasion is undoubt- 
 edly a proper one. 
 
 The first subdivision that the committee has made is the business re- 
 lations sustained to railroad companies by co-operative freight lines, 
 Qon-co-operative, and by the dispatch, express, and sleeping-car and 
 ilrawing-room car lines. While I have some considerable knowledge of 
 these organizations on other roads, I shall speak more particularly with 
 regard to their arrangements on the roads with which I am directly con- 
 nected. Mr. Hayes, who appeared here yesterday, represents the " Blue 
 Line," which is one of these lines running from New York and Boston 
 over the New York Central and Hudson B-iver, and going via Suspen- 
 sion Bridge over the Great Western aud Michigan Central to Chicago, 
 and thence diverging to various points farther west. There is another 
 line called the " Bed Line," that runs from New York and Boston, and 
 by way of Buffalo, over the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Eoad to 
 Chicago, and also down the Toledo and Wabash Road and branches, and 
 to various points in what might be caljed the central part of the South- 
 west, the " Blue Line "just, mentioned going into rather what might be 
 called the Northwest. There is a third line, called the " White Line," 
 going from New York and Boston by way of Buffalo and the Lake Shore 
 and Michigan Southern Road, turning off substantially at Cleveland, and 
 going down to Cincinnati, and along the line of the Ohio River into 
 what may be called the real Southwest and South. Each of these lines 
 has extensive divergencies at all important points. Territory is divided 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 127 
 
 up between tbem, so that all the so-called "West" is practically covered 
 by their operations. In stating tbe organization of one, which Mr. Hayes 
 has done with regard to the ''Blue Line," the organization of all has 
 been stated. 
 
 I noticed the New York Times this morning had a brief article with 
 reference to Mr. Hayes' remarks yesterday, in which it said that there 
 was some doubt still in the public mind whether there were not abuses 
 — that was the word used — counected with these lines ; whether they 
 were not wheels within wheels, something like the " Credit Mobilier." 
 For the purpose of definitely disposing of these doubts in a manner that 
 should answer once for all, I desire to say that what Mr. Hayes stated 
 yesterday about the " Blue Line" is true in the strictest degree, and that 
 it is equally true of each of the other lines that I have- mentioned. 
 There is not a thiug in any way connected with them that is different 
 from the usual manner of doing freight business, excepting simply the 
 organization for efficiency. I made some statements before this com- 
 mittee when it had the postal-car matter before it concerning the effect 
 and purpose of these lines^ to which I beg to refer. 
 
 • There is another line which I will mention now, so as to put them all 
 together; it is called the Merchants' Dispatch Transportation Com- 
 pany ; and there is still another one, lately organized, called the Inter- 
 national. The Merchants' Dispatch Transportation Company covers 
 the same territory as. the "Bed," "White," and "Blue" lines, and runs 
 to substantially the same points as they do. It is accessory as regards 
 territory. The " International Line" is run in connection with the Grand 
 Trunk and Michigan Central. So far as it goes west of the connecting 
 point between the Grand Trunk and Michigan Central, it covers partly the 
 same territory that the " Blue Line" does. These lines do their business 
 between the roads precisely the same as if the separate roads did it, by in- 
 terchanging their respective common cars. There is nothing whatever 
 pwd in any shape at all- to the lines ; there are no special agents for them. 
 The business is all got and managed entirely by the ordinary agents of the 
 respective roads. In the " Bed Line," which was the first one organized, 
 for the purpose of making a kind of tangibility to it, there was issued 
 what was called a certificate of stock, representing a so-called share for 
 each car put in the line. This was merely to fix a basis of representa- 
 tion in the managemeqt, but even that was subsequently dispensed 
 with. The cars that are put in are and remain the separate property of 
 each road; the number is increased by agreement of all the parties, as 
 occasion demands, and the whole thing is simply a practical consolida- 
 tion of action for the purposes of the business the line is to do. The 
 cars are set apart expressly for the service they are to be used in. There 
 is a general office maintained by each line, managed by Mr. Hayes, of 
 Detroit, for the "Blue Line," and by Mr. Smith, of Buffalo, and Mr. 
 Darling, of Buffalo, for tbe "Bed" and " White," for the purpose of 
 adjusting the accounts between the companies with regard to the use of 
 the cars. Cars are put in upon the basis of the length of the road — one 
 car to every so many miles ; but if the business, by and by, gets suffi- 
 ciently large, it may be so many cars per mile. Mileage is adjusted 
 between the companies just as it would be in the case of interchange of 
 ordinary cars. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Do you confirm, as to all these lines, the statement 
 made by Mr. Hayes that tbe stockholders and directors of the railroad 
 are not stockholders in any of these companies, or in anywise in conflict 
 as to interest between their representation of one trust and another "I 
 
128 transportation to the seaboard. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Entirely so. There is no stock in any of them to 
 be interested in ; nothing of the kind. 
 
 Mr. Dayis. Just there, tell us why the lines are separate from the 
 railroads ? What is the object of their existence separate ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. I stated the object of these lines to the committee 
 when it was considering the postal-service question. In addition to 
 what I now say, I beg to refer to what I then said, and I will further 
 explain. We have on the Central what is called the " Grain-Line 
 Transit Company," running from Buffalo, and have special cars appro- 
 priated to it and marked with its name. These are entirely local, and 
 all the business is our own. The arrangement is called a line only to 
 give it a certain deflniteness when spoken of, and as a simple matter of 
 convenience and efficiency for that particular traffic. 
 
 What is true of this line as a purely local arrangement is true also 
 of the lines I have been speaking of for the through traffic. To show 
 bow exactly the details of the business I done in the usual way, if a 
 man contracts with -either the " Bed," " Blue," or " White" line, say in 
 New York, he contracts with the New York Central and Hudson Biver 
 Company just as if he went into our especial office, and so at each 
 point where any one of the companies in the line have an office. There 
 is an office of central control for the cars run in each of these lines. 
 That office represents all the parties in interest. No company can 
 divert the cars it has appropriated to this through service from either 
 of the lines for the purpose of local or independent use. The general 
 manager has control of the cars. He can require the New York Cen- 
 tral to send the line-cars it may have on its road to any point where 
 the business for the line is to be obtained ; the object of the organiza- 
 tion being to promote efficiency. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Are the earnings of the line divided pro rata f 
 
 Mr. Worcester. There are no earnings of the line. A record is kept 
 at the central office, showing what is called the line earnings ; that is 
 what is earned by all the cars in the line, by all the companies that own 
 such cars, but for the earnings of the line as a line, separate from other 
 earnings of the respective companies, there is no such thing. The line 
 earnings are merely those of the companies which form it. Business is 
 billed over each road just as in all other cases. For instance, a "Bed 
 Line " car comes over the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Boad to 
 Buffalo, and in the same traiu comes an ordinary car of the Lake Shore 
 and Michigan Southern Boad. They deliver the two cars to us. In the 
 case of the " Bed Line " car we put it into our train and haul it away, 
 and in the case of the other car we perhaps transfer the property, because 
 their car could come no further. The charges, if any, accumulated at, say 
 Chicago, called " br.ck charges" would be paid by the Lake Shore Com- 
 pany, on these two cars, in just the same manner. The cars would be 
 billed over the New York Central in just the same manner. We would 
 collect the money on each in just the same manner. We would pay the 
 Lake Shore their proportion in just the same manner. All the de- 
 tails attending the line-car would be settled just as those of the ordinary 
 car would be. Besides the manner of keeping statistical information, 
 and the general control of cars for efficiency, the line business differs 
 from ordinary only in this important particular — important for the pub- 
 lic, and almost entirely for their benefit— the saving of the cost of trans- 
 fer, which would be necessary if each company ran its cars only to the 
 end of its own road. This arrangement, it must be remembered, is a 
 voluntary one on the part of the railroad companies. A great deal has 
 been said about doing certain things by means of legislation and that 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 129 
 
 certain things are done because of active competition, the development 
 of business, the natural exercise of business shrewdness, and the obtain- 
 ing of business customs. This line business has grown out of these last. 
 I speak of this because it may be a matter of great doubt whether things 
 of tbis kind can be regulated by both legislation and by business custom 
 or business necessity. Both principles could hardly obtain in the same 
 case. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. These companies are not incorporated, but they are 
 voluntary partnerships? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. They are not incorporated. IsTo legislative action 
 has been sought, and the objects effected could not probably have been 
 brought about by mandatory legislation. They are voluntary associa- 
 tions for a particular purpose. 
 
 Mr. Davis. The manner in which they are organized, then, is of A, B, 
 C intending to create a line. They then make arrangements with the 
 companies for that purpose. Is that it ? How are these lines brought 
 into existence? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. I will tell you how the " Eed Line " was, and it was 
 substantially the same with the others. Formerly cars were run through 
 sometimes, but occasionally only. Suppose a cir started from Chicago, 
 say a Michigan Southern car, it would be ran to Buffalo, where freight 
 destined for New York would be transferred at a very considerable ex- 
 pense — about tbe largest expense there was connected with transporta- 
 tion in those clays — and a great delay was caused also. If the Michigan 
 Southern let its car come to New York, and the New York Central 
 Eoad did not pay for the use of the car in kind, that is, by letting one 
 of its own cars go to, say Chicago, the Michigan Southern Bailroad 
 would very soon be depleted of its cars, which would be accumulating 
 on the New York Central Eoad, even although that company should pay 
 for tbe use of the cars in cash. This line arrangement was one by 
 which this difficulty could be remedied, so that freight could be shipped 
 from one extreme point to another without changing cars, while at the 
 same time each company could depend on having its cars back. 
 
 Mr. Davis. That does not quite cover my question. Suppose a new 
 line, ypu say there are new lines started recently, wanted to come into 
 existence to-morrow, what would be the process ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. I cannot understand that condition.' 
 
 Mr. Davis. You say there have been two or three new ones ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. The " International Line ;' : that was by way of the 
 Grand Trunk Eoad, a route that had not one of these lines running, and 
 they made one for it. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Who made it ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. This line was made, as I explained about the 
 others, because the companies found that they wanted to interchange 
 cars when they made connections of their roads, and they set cars 
 especially apart therefor. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Perhaps, Senator Davis is confusing the class of com- 
 panies. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. The same cause which led to the organization of 
 the " Eed Line," that is, the necessity growing out of connecting 
 roads for through traffic, at Buffalo, led to the " Blue Line,"' for a con- 
 nection at Suspension Bridge. The " International Line " goes over the 
 International bridge, just done. If. other new roads should connect 
 with us at Buffalo or Suspension Bridge, and business was large enough 
 to demand it, it is quite likely lines of the same kind would be found to 
 run over them. What the organization of lines on other roads is, I could 
 9t 
 
130 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 speak of, if at all, only from general knowledge. The kind of arrange- 
 ment 1 have described is what we have for all the lines on the New 
 York Central and Hudson Eiver. Possibly Senator Davis had in mind 
 just now the formation of non-co-operative or independent lines which 
 are let in on some roads, I think, on certain fixed terms. We have no 
 such lines, however, on our road. 
 
 I want to mention another important fact about these lines, that, up to 
 the time the arrangements were made by which a definite number of cars 
 was set apart for these lines, and this through business was transacted 
 by them in a systematic manner, that business was as uncertain as it 
 well could be. The New York Central never, until then, entered into 
 any definite arrangement for pro-rating on freight. The principle of 
 pro-rating, that is, accepting part of a rate in proportion to length of 
 road under a contract for rates made by somebody else instead of by itself, 
 permitting others to make contracts, and recognizing such contracts, . 
 was not adopted by the New York Central until these lines were put in 
 operation. Before that time we reserved the right, under all circum- 
 stances, to charge on property that came to us at Buffalo an inde- 
 pendent rate ; that is, one irrespective of any price other parties had 
 contracted for, and there were many cases then in which property would 
 be contracted from Chicago, and when it reached Buffalo circumstances 
 were such that we would ask more than our pro-rata of the through rate, 
 and the contracting parties would have to lose the difference, all which 
 led to a great deal of disturbance, kept everything fluctuating, and made 
 no efficient connection whatever. 
 
 There are some features attending the transshipment or transfer of 
 property under the old-fashioned way of doing business. I was in the 
 mercantile business a good many years ago, before railroads came into 
 use for freight purposes. One of my duties was to mark goods to be 
 shipped, and I well remember marking to the care of three or four 
 people. For instance, going by canal, care of such a man at Buffalo; 
 care of some one else at some point up the lake ; some one else at some 
 interior point, and so on. In the then ordinary way of doing business, 
 a man snipped his property to a certain point, say the terminal of some 
 route, and when it got there it was subjectto his order. If he was not there 
 himself, he had an agent or consignee to take it. The business of that 
 agent or consignee would be to pay the charges if not prepaid when the 
 property was shipped, deliver it to the nest party in the line of trans- 
 portation after making his bargain with such party, and so on, for every 
 point of reshipment. The same rule would, abstractly considered, ap- 
 ply to-day, but all this detail is done voluntarily by the railroad compa- 
 nies for the convenience of shippers and the public. Property shipped 
 from Chicago, Saint Louis, and even San Francisco, comes to New York 
 without any special oversight or charge. If from Canada we even 
 enter it at the custom-house, and give a bond for duties. This is all 
 voluntary. Few people have auy conception of the vast amount of 
 troublesome business done by railroad companies for them in this way, 
 and yet the saving of the expense of transfer or reshipment instead of 
 being made the source of additional profit has been applied to the re- 
 duction of rates. I undertake to say that the railroads could today 
 make as much money without these lines, the rates being higher, of 
 course, and the volume of business much less. It has, however, become 
 now almost a matter of necessity to continue this way of doing business. 
 It has been done long enough for many to claim they have a right to 
 demand it. If a man should go into a railroad ofiQce and ask for a pas- 
 sage-ticket and also for a check for his baggage from New York to New 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 131 
 
 Orleans even, lie would be surprised to be told it was not his right to 
 demand them. And yet the arrangements voluntarily made for these 
 things involve the assumption of large responsibilities for others with- 
 out consideration therefor. But it is said competition and considerations 
 of a business nature lead to this assumption, and this is no doubt true, 
 but where these considerations obtain they alone must regulate. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Have you arrived at the point where you could give 
 us the proportion of freight carried by those lines compared with the 
 general freightage % 
 
 Mr. Worcester. I can answer that in a general way by saying that 
 substantially all the through business is done by these lines. The inten- 
 tion is to keep enough cars in these lines to do all the through business. 
 I have a statement as to the number of cars in each line, which I will 
 read : In the " Blue Line " there were 3,287 cars, of which 800 were New 
 York Central. In the "White Line" there were 3,247 cars, of which 
 the New York Central had 846. In the "Bed Line" there were 3,489 
 cars, of which the New York Central had 1,281. " The Merchants' Dis- 
 patch," I have not got the number of accurately, just now. I think there 
 are about 1,500, however. In the " International Line " there are about 
 1,000 cars, of which the New York Central has about 225. 
 
 With the Lake Shore Boad I am not quite so familiar as to the num- 
 ber of cars. They run a line in connection with the Erie Boad, called 
 the "Great Western Dispatch;" another line, in connection with the 
 Pennsylvania Boad, which is the line Mr. Potts spoke of yesterday, called 
 the " Empire." They have also a line running to Baltimore, called the 
 " Globe Line." I am not familiar enough with them to state precisely 
 what their arrangements are, but all those lines, as I understand it, are 
 very approximately like those on the Central. Some of them, such as 
 the " Empire," are represented by stock, but what the effect of that 
 stock is, those who are interested can say best. 
 
 The second subdivision made by the committe is the relation existing 
 between railroad companies and freight-propeller lines on the lakes. 
 T^his connection of what is called rail and water lines is a thing the 
 New York Central has, at present, very little. We take what business 
 comes to us at Buffalo, which is the only point where much comes to us 
 by water, and transport it the same as we would any other business. 
 We have no special connection with propellers on the lakes. We once 
 owned an interest in a line of passenger steamboats on the north shore, 
 and also in a line on the south shore of Lake Erie. We at one time 
 owned, ourselves, ten propellers ou the lakes, which were run in lines, 
 parts of the ten being run in each, giving us a large and, sometimes, 
 controlling interest in those lines, by which we did a very large lake 
 business directly and under our control. That we have since gone en- 
 tirely out of. The establishment of these lines of through cars was one 
 reason for disposing of our water interests. Bail lines naturally became 
 connected more and more with other rail lines by reason of these through 
 lines of cars ; nevertheless water communication, where it strikes rail, 
 is generally treated as a rail connection would be at that point. That 
 is the general proposition. It gets the same rate substantially as the 
 railroad would get at the same connection. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not think I understand you there ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. At the point where water communication strikes 
 the rail, the rate would be substantially the same by rail forward from 
 that point, as it would be for •any similar property that came to the 
 same point by rail. 
 
 Mr. Hayes. That is so. 
 
132 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. The practical competition between water communi- 
 cation and rail is pretty well over. Each has settled itself to the point 
 where its own natural and proper business is understood. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Before you go on I should like to have this point 
 made a little clearer : You say you charge the shippers by water and 
 rail from Chicago to New York the same rate per ton per mile or 
 bushel from Buffalo here, that you would if it was brought over by the 
 Lake Shore Boad 1 „_,,,,, 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir; our rate from Buffalo would be substan- 
 tially the same ; our proportion from Buffalo to New York would he 
 substantially the same whether delivered at Buffalo by lake or by rail. 
 There are some items connected with the water-business, such as the 
 expense incidental to transferring from vessels to cars, but, substan- 
 tially, the rule is as I have stated. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. I have here the price for different months for 1872 
 from Chicago to New York, and if it was delivered to you at Buffalo 
 midway, by vessel, would you make an abateoTent in proportion to the 
 distance from Buffalo by rail to Chicago ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir ; if I understand accurately what you mean. 
 What I stated in regard to this business is, however, supposing things 
 to be in what is called a normal condition — that is, all things being 
 equal ; that is the principle. There are times when, owing to peculiar 
 circumstances, matters will, for a longer or a shorter time, get quite re- 
 versed. Most of the peculiar allegations made about railroad-rates are 
 true only when this last condition obtains. As a rule all charges made 
 of so-called unfair discriminating rates have been caused by an abnor- 
 mal condition of things. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. What produces that ! Is it the action of the railroad, 
 or is it usually forced upon them ; or, what I mean to ask, is it a condi- 
 tion of things within the control of the railroad '? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Sometimes it is and sometimes it is not. It is dif- 
 ficult always to say ; it is oftentimes quite unexplainable. If you should 
 earnestly try to find out who was to blame for a certain condition of 
 things, it might be practically impossible to succeed. A person may, in 
 a certain case, say the railroads are to blame, but that would be general 
 and cover the whole system party to the matter ; and, if tixe question 
 be asked, which is the individual road, it would be quite impossible to 
 name it, and so the blame does not practically locate at all. Cattle were 
 at one time taken from Buffalo to New York for $1 per car by the Erie 
 and also by the New York Central Boad. There was no pretense that 
 there was any profit in doing business at that rate, and the rates along 
 the line of the roads were not, of course, reduced down to the proportion 
 of a dollar. They could not very well be. This was an abnormal con- 
 dition of things, but, very naturally, it did not e:*st very long. The 
 only question to settle was, who could stand it the longer ?" 
 
 Mr. Norwood. That was a railroad fight" 
 
 Mr. Worcester. It was emphatically so. But, if you wanted to 
 find out who was to blame for it, it would be very difficult." - The primary 
 causes are frequently small and remote. An agent somewhere makes a 
 contract. The agent of another railroad (intentionally or uninten- 
 tionally, as the case may be) misstates the facts to his principals, who 
 say, " that will take business away from us, and we will meet that by 
 reducing our rates ;" and they proceed to do it to such extent as will 
 protect them, as they suppose, in retaining their business. And yet the 
 foundation for the action may have been a misstatement. Time is not 
 always afforded to inquire into the facts. Action has often necessarily 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. loo 
 
 to precede inquiry. For obvious reasons no railroad can permit a 
 ■'cut "in rates to divert its traffic to another line unless it means to 
 give up the traffic altogether. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Can you give an instance of how rates go up ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. It is sometimes supposed that the rates are made 
 with reference to the revenue to be paid in on the capital, or on the 
 investment in the enterprise, or on " watered stock," as the present 
 term is ; and that if a railroad can make " terminal charges," or " transfer 
 charges," or can invent anything of that kind, that that is made an ex- 
 cuse for higher rates. Nothing of the kind ever obtains. Eates never 
 have the slightest reference to what the capital of the company is, or 
 how large an investment they may desire to pay on. The only question 
 is what the property will bear, keeping always in view the future 
 development of business and the elements of public prosperity involved 
 in such development. What can be got upon this basis has to work 
 out its own results as regards all or any returns to stock or capital. 
 
 With regard to terminal charges to which I just alluded, terminal 
 charges by a railroad do not affect a rate in the slightest degree. A 
 shipper would not have property carried less because railroad terminal 
 charges, if there were any, should be taken off. Such a charge by a 
 railroad is only a question of the distribution between the particular 
 parties in interest of the whole amount received. One road says to 
 another, you are an intermediate road and have no work to perform for 
 the through traffic, except to hitch on to the cars and haul them over 
 your liue, while we, being a terminal road, have to furnish depot and 
 freight-grounds, warehouses, and facilities, and do switching, handling, 
 and delivering, collecting bills, &c, and for this we must have a greater 
 part of the rate than would be ours upon the simple length of our line. 
 This was a matter of frequent. adjustment between the New York Cen- 
 tral Boad and the Hudson River Road previous to their consolidation, 
 and has been especially considered in settling the business done by the 
 through lines. It was, however, nothing additional charged on the 
 property ; it was and is only a question as to whether the expenses of 
 the terminus should be contributed to by all the companies in the line 
 instead of being borne by the terminal one. It is simply a 'variation 
 from strict pro-rating on length. It never was made an excuse for addi- 
 tional charges on property. Such a thing as an excuse would not be 
 necessary if the property would bear it, keeping in view the considera- 
 tions I have already mentioned. What really settles rates is the condi- 
 tion of commerce in the country, in view of all the circumstances sur- 
 rounding it, and they are governed by the same inflexible laws that any 
 other matter connected with commerce is, and railroad managers are 
 wise enough to know that even if they desired so to do, these laws can- 
 not be violated with ultimate benefit. 
 
 The third subdivision relates to differential and discriminating freight- 
 charges of ai! kinds, imposed by railroad companies, and especially 
 with reference to the minimum price upon which such charges are 
 based. 
 
 By differential or discriminating charges, I suppose is meant cases in 
 which, under apparently similar circumstances, treatment is dissimilar. 
 
 The Chairman. That is what was intended by discriminating. By 
 differential is meant the difference in charges on freight and the reason 
 for it; but the other term was meant to cover what you said. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. D/scriminatiou is rather a peculiar word. It has 
 a certain concrete meaning, and carries with it at least some idea of 
 special intention. Usually as connected with freight business, those 
 
134 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD.. 
 
 who use it mean charges fixed in a certain way for a certain purpose, 
 and such purpose, it is assumed, is improper. It might almost be sup- 
 posed that the principal business of railroad managers was to combine 
 and concoct schemes to injure the public. There is an impression on 
 some of a sort of gratuitous malice in all they do; that they select the 
 worst men possible to put in every place, and that pains are taken to 
 render every one uncomfortable' Eailroad men are not so unwise as 
 these ideas suppose. It has been said that the most able men in the 
 country are now more or less engaged in railroads, and it would be in- 
 deed strange if they should not use in that department the intelligence 
 thus attributed to them. It is said sometimes that they cut off their 
 own business by discriminations that dwarf the growth of the country. 
 They certainly know how to take care of their own business, and they 
 know equally well that business depends on the development of the busi- 
 ness of the country, and in what are sometimes called discriminations they , 
 have this last rather than any other principle in view. It is by no means 
 clear that so-called discriminations necessarily injure a State, or the coun- 
 try, each considered as a whole. Suppose the case of a higher price 
 to a near point than to a far; the far point would have, perhaps, a certain 
 sort of advantage, but that the aggregate advantage and disadvantage 
 would not be equal is not at all apparent. The right of a corporation 
 (which is a created being) to exercise discretion in such a matter is an- 
 other question, but as regards the single question of positive effect, 
 issue may easily be joined. 
 
 A gentleman in Albany largely engaged in stove manufacturing, (with 
 whom and with which business I was once connected,) found that his 
 particular trade had grown to be quite competitive at Buffalo ; that 
 people from the Western States came to Buffalo to get stoves. The 
 tolls on the canals proved no small item in the cost of the transportation 
 from Albany to Buffalo, and the gentleman I referred to went to the 
 canal board to persuade them to reduce the tolls somewhat. He said 
 that if it was not done he could not compete with Buffalo, and that 
 the commerce of the State woidd suffer. A member of the board re- 
 plied that while they wanted of course to have the business of the canal 
 as large as possible, and would for that reason be glad to see stoves for 
 the West shipped at Albany, still, as regarded the interests of the whole 
 State, it was quite immaterial whether Buffalo or Albany made the 
 stoves. 
 
 About the rates and scaling of charges. The tariffs on the New York 
 Central Boad are, and, I may say, have always been, progressive for 
 distance. The local rate from Buffalo to New York is somewhat in 
 excess of the proportion of the through rate from prominent points west, 
 say from Chicago ; enough in excess to cover the cost of the peculiarities 
 of local shipment from Buffalo, that is, the location expenses, the 
 shipping, handling, &c. This, of course, is when the Chicago rate is 
 in a normal condition. There are times when, owing to some tem- 
 porarily peculiar couditiou of things, Chicago rates might fall, when 
 this relation would be very considerably disturbed— the Buffalo rates 
 not settling immediately to meet the disturbance. Anybody who coin- 
 pared them at such a time might find a very considerable* difference. 
 The principle, however, on which local rates are made is as I have 
 stated. From Buffalo down the rate is a diminishing rate all the way 
 to New York. It does not diminish for every mile, or at every station. 
 Sometimes at three or four stations near together the rates to New York 
 would be the same ; nevertheless, as you get farther down, the rates 
 become less. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 135 
 
 It is often supposed that it is always worth less to carry freight a 
 short distance than a long. This is a very mistaken notion. I could, 
 to speak within bounds, mention a hundred cases in which it costs and 
 is actually worth considerably more to carry property a shorter distance 
 than a longer. In an investigation once had before the New York 
 legislature, there was one case presented. A man had two or three car- 
 loads of cattle to ship from a point fifteen or twenty miles this side of 
 Buffalo, and he was charged the full Buffalo rate, of which he com- 
 plained. The fact was, however, that it was, under the circnmstances', 
 worth more to haul his cattle from that point than it would have been 
 to haul them from Buffalo. The reason, when stated, will be apparent. 
 Buffalo is a point of accumulation, where the cattle business is steady; 
 all empty cars go to Buffalo ; all the complete arrangements for doing 
 that business are there. We have our yards, our cattle-men, our load- 
 ing conveniences, and everything accessory to doing the business at that 
 point efficiently and economically. The cars that this man's cattle would 
 need at the point this side would either have to be left off a train going up, 
 by special arrangement, involving the stopping of the train expressly to 
 leave them, or else they would have to be hauled empty from Buffalo to 
 his place and stop, and a stop made to leave them. Take these consid- 
 erations, and the loading being an exceptional thing at that place with- 
 out conveniences therefor, and the company could better have afforded 
 to take even a less amount from Buffalo. Suppose property were offered 
 at a point where there was no station, would it not be easier to take it 
 at the nearest station, even although it might be, say, ten or fifteen miles' 
 more haul I And what is the case as between no station and a station 
 is often the case between different stations, the steadiness of business 
 and the consequent conveniences and arrangements affecting the ques- 
 tion. I have stated the general rule applicable to local rates. There are 
 cases, other than the kind just spoken of, in which what are called dis- 
 criminations are made by a reduction in the nature of a concession to 
 the shippers, and owing to circumstances peculiar to each. For instance, 
 a man has a manufactory, or a mill, and business is dull. The price of 
 his particular product at the time happens to be a little depressed. He 
 says : " I cannot well afford, if at all, to send this to market at the full 
 rate which you are charging." We may perhaps happen to have cars 
 to move empty from his place, or to enable business which may afford 
 a better price by and by may be kept alive, and we make a concession 
 or a special rate to him. As compared with some other place this may 
 look like discrimination, but all the discriminations I ever knew of grew 
 out of considerations of a somewhat similar nature. 
 
 If in granting the concession in the case just supposed the company 
 could be held to their action as a conclusive precedent for all persons, 
 whether the company or the persons were similarly circumstanced or 
 not, and could be compelled to make all their rates conform to this spe- 
 cial one, they would simply be cut off from the ability to assist that man. 
 That is all there is of it. It would be beyond doubt cutting off the exer- 
 [ cise of a sound discretion on the part of the company. The mistake 
 made is to say that at a special rate under these circumstances some- 
 body is injured ; somebody is benefited, that is certain, but no one in- 
 jured. The number of these concessions made is very considerable, and, 
 all circumstances being equal, they are made to all substantially alike. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Let me give you a case where I know an actual dis- 
 crimination made by a railroad. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Was it a road I am connected with. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. No, sir. 
 
136 TBANSPOKTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. I should prefer that others should answer for their 
 own sins, if sins they be, or give their own explanations. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Several persons were competing in the lumber busi- 
 ness and the railroad companies said, " If one of your companies will 
 carry over my road 3,000,000 of feet a year we will reduce the rate 25 
 per cent." 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Tes ; it was a question between wholesale and re- 
 tail trade, the relations of which have been fully and frequently dis- 
 cu'ssetl. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Would not that give to one man the monopoly of the 
 business, where others were competing, and drive the others out. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. I cannot judge the matter without more knowledge 
 of the circumstances. One thing, however, is certain, and nothing on 
 the face of the earth. can prevent it, that a man who deals largely has 
 certain benefits which the smaller cannot get. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Ought the railroad company to make it 
 
 Mr. Worcester. They are not necessarily accountable for it. A man 
 may say " I can give you so much business." If you can depend on that 
 you may make definite arrangements accordingly. It depends of course 
 on the circumstances of each particular case. I would not say that that 
 necessarily gave him a monopoly of the business. I do not see that 
 that follows. I take it for granted from what I know railroads gene- 
 rally do in such cases, and from what the central would have done in 
 the circumstances you mention, that either of the competitors in the 
 lumber business you describe could have got a similar rate upon agree- 
 ing to ship a similar quantity — that is, that, all the circumstances being 
 equal, the same treatment would have been given. The most important 
 thing in connection with the rate of freight, perhaps, is the Quantity to 
 be shipped. Anything that regulates rates without allowing fully for 
 the element of quantity in is an utter absurdity. When you ship a cer- 
 tain large quantity, there are circumstances that may well modify ac- 
 tion as compared with a smaller. It would hardly be possible to apply 
 a uniform rule with regard to the shipment of large quantities as against 
 small, or as to the exact unit. Perhaps as to a car-load as a unit of 
 quantity there can be little doubt. As a rule a car-load is about as 
 easily disposed of as a half car-load. 
 
 A newspaper correspondent, writing from Ohio, said that certain roads 
 would not ship grain, unless a car was loaded " chock up," whereas he 
 said they take other people's property in small parcels at the same rate. 
 He simply misunderstood the whole subject. A car can be filled with 
 "parcels" belonging to a thousand people, but grain cannot be mixed. 
 If bagged, however, I think the railroad would have treated it just the 
 same as the other " parcels " were treated. Theshipper probably did not 
 want to do this ; he did want to go to the expense of keeping his lot sepa- 
 rate from that of his fellow-shipper, and the railroad was practically 
 expected to give him a whole car for perhaps a tenth of its capacity, 
 and as I said but now a half-loaded car is just about as much expense 
 in all things as a full-loaded and a tenth-loaded not much less than a 
 half-loaded. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. From your auswer to Senator Sherman, I infer that 
 your idea is that the railroads in the management of their business 
 should be governed by the same rules as private individuals are in man- 
 aging their own. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. As to all the broad fundamental principles, entirely 
 so. There are many circumstances in which the corporation differs from 
 and cannot do as the individual would— making the necessary allowance 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 137 
 
 for these, the rules should be the same. The present managers of the 
 Central have always acted upon that principle. 
 
 At the first meeting of the board of directors, after they came into 
 control, Commodore Yanderbilt said to me, " Mr. Worcester, do every- 
 thing just as you -would do it if it was your own business; vary from 
 this only so far as the peculiar circumstances incidental to a corpora- 
 tion demand." All things being equal, that was his idea of correct man- 
 agement. 
 
 ' When I spoke of "concessions" just now, I did not use the word in 
 its strict abstract sense, but as a technical commercial term, meaning a 
 variation from a standard. This explanation is proper to prevent mis- 
 understandings, of which there are already enough. What are called 
 discriminations are comparative in their effect, rather than positive. 
 The question whether one person is charged too high a rate can hardly 
 be claimed to depend upon what another is charged, while, as a rule, 
 all should be served alike, the rate any one pays, stands, after all, quite 
 on its own merits. A man might say, "It is discrimination to give 
 one person a free-pass, and not to give to another." But if he meant by 
 that that giving one was a reason for giving more, he could hardly be 
 sound. This question is often asked, and is sometimes considered quite 
 unanswerable : " If a railroad can afford to carry in one case for a certain 
 rate, why cannot it afford to carry for the same rate in others V 
 
 The fact would probably be that it could not, in one sense, afford to 
 carry for that price, in the one case, but it was all that could be got, and 
 there was no help. There are two kinds of what may be called afford- 
 ing; one is, when profits are diminished, or, perhaps, extinguished; the 
 other is where a greater loss is, either directly or indirectly, saved. 
 But perhaps in the one case supposed the price might afford a small 
 profit, and that it was all the profit that could, under the circumstances, 
 be made. If, now, this one case should establish a rule applicable to all 
 others, even that small profit would have to be foregone, and at the same 
 time the property could not reach market. I feel safe in saying that in 
 all cases where the circumstances were absolutely the same, the same 
 treatment would be given. The cry has been that railroads were extor- 
 tionate, and yet the criticism as to discrimination is founded upon reduc- 
 tions. So far as these are made, so far, at least, the evil complained of 
 is removed. So far as they make differences, the differences called dis- 
 criminations, that is an involuntary effect. Any attempt to regulate this 
 part of the business of the country by the application of rigid rules 
 would be vastly disastrous to shippers without, probably, in the aggre- 
 gate, materially affecting the roads. Finally, upon this subject the idea, 
 if such be entertained, that discriminations made for the purpose of build- 
 ing up one locality or interest as against another, or for any purpose 
 other than that of promoting the common interests of shippers and 
 transporters, is a delusion. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Is not the basis of these discriminations generally 
 competition or non-competition 1 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Not generally, by any means; hardly at all as re- 
 gards & permanent reduction. I allude, now, to what is commonly called 
 competition— that is, sharp and special. The opening or development 
 of new lines tends to keep prices at a certain minimum, at which the 
 volume of business becomes naturally divided. "Cuts" of rates, so- 
 called, are usually temporary, and are caused by attempts to make an 
 undue diversion. A person has shipped property over a certain line for 
 a certain time. There is another line between the same points, and 
 when everything is in a normal condition prices are substantially the 
 same by each, founded upon the principles I have already spoken of. 
 
138 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 If, now, this other line, by cutting rates for a few days, could divert to 
 itself the business of the person referred to, it might undertake, during 
 that time, to do his business for almost nothing. In self-defense the 
 first line would, however, follow the " cuts," for the person in question 
 would not come back to it again if once he went to the otb er. All this is un- 
 healthy, even for the shippers, for they cannot be well served, in the long 
 run, by such circumstances, and no sensible railroad manager would 
 take measures of the kind I have spoken of unless they should be, (as 
 is sometimes tbe case,) a means to force the adjustment of disputed ques- 
 tions that could not otherwise be settled — and even then it would have 
 to be the excuse of absolute necessity. 
 
 Upon this subject of variation of rates generally : If uniformity of 
 rates be represented by a straight line, variations may be represented 
 by a line falling below and again rising to such straight line, or by a 
 notched line, if I may so call it. It is evident that the notched line 
 could be made a straight one just as well by filling up the depressions 
 as by cutting off the elevations, and, in the railroad analogy, this conld 
 be the only means of making uniformity ; and this in practice would be 
 the absolute prohibition of carrying unless the property or business 
 would bear a certain and invariable standard rate. 
 
 The next subdivision made by the committee is facts in relation to 
 the cost of railroads and alleged issues of fictitious stock. As to the first 
 clause of this subdivision, I purposed submitting some carefully prepared 
 tabulations as to the cost of roads, and also the cost of operating, &c. ; 
 and, in order to make them of more value, by means of comparisons, I 
 sent to England for somewhat elaborate statistics of the roads in that 
 country. I was aware in a general way what the comparisons would 
 show, and I think they would have proved interesting and instructive. 
 As, however, there has been delay in the arrival of the figures, I will ask 
 permission to submit anything I may prepare from them at some future 
 time; and as to the second clause there has been as much said upon this 
 branch of the committee's inquiry as upon any other, and perhaps even 
 more than upon any other branch. " Watered stock " has been the terra 
 commonly used, and the roads with which I Am connected have generally 
 been considered prominent examples in that respect. The cry of " wa- 
 tered stock " has been used until it has become in its frightening effect 
 almost like the cry of " mad dog." In the minds of many people it has 
 become almost a conviction that the mere existence of a capital stock at 
 all is evidence of "water;" and a still greater number feel convinced 
 that any increase whatever, for whatever purpose, is undoubtedly 
 " water," and is made for and only for the purpose of having an excuse 
 for demanding higher rates. 
 
 The committee has used the word " fictitious," which has a certain 
 sense of being unauthorized or illegal, but I take it for granted that the 
 meaning wtfs that generally understood by the popular term I have men- 
 tioned. 
 
 There is such a thing (to use, as I shall, the popular expression) as 
 essentially watering stock. There are other things that might be con- 
 structively called watering, and there are a great many things which 
 are now called watering that are not, iu any proper sense of that word. 
 
 I have heard it said that any company that had, by any process, for 
 any reason whatever, increased its capital— and by capital 1 now mean 
 both capital stock and debt, the amount on which it is supposed the 
 business of the road is to pay a revenue (supposing, of course, it pays 
 any) beyond the amount it was at the first organization of the companv— 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 139 
 
 had watered it. Strange as this may seem, it has not been an uncommon 
 or unfrequent proposition, soberly and even emphatically laid down. 
 
 Next, what were called dividends of stock, or the distribution of 
 stock to stockholders by any process whatever, was water ; the com- 
 bination or consolidation of two roads or the absorption of one road by 
 another, and the addition of one capital stock to another, was water. 
 As an instance of this last, there was a road built from Athens to 
 Schenectady Junction, at a cost of upward of $2,000,000. It was sub- 
 sequently leased to the New York Central, and under an act of the leg- 
 islature it was afterward practically consolidated. The cost of that 
 road was thereafter counted in the cost of the New York Central Eoad, 
 and the amount of its capital stock was added to that of the New York 
 Central. I have heard people say that that transaction was watering 
 in the New York Central stock. There is just one way for ascertaining 
 how much profit a railroad company has made; What profit it has 
 made is just and strictly the difference between the amount it has re- 
 ceived from its operating and the amount it costs them to do that oper- 
 ating. In the English companies it is a uniform rule not to divert any 
 of the money that they have made to any other purpose, but to keep or 
 use it entirely for dividends. The consequence is, a dividend may be 
 one per cent, for one-half yearly period, and eight or ten for the next. 
 They then invariably borrow, or capitalize by the issue of bonds or 
 stock, whatever amount is needed for improving or increasing the 
 capacity of the road. Capital and revenue are kept entirely separate. 
 In this country the custom has been quite different. I am now, of 
 course, speaking of roads that pay dividends. A railroad that was 
 making enough profit to pay dividends at all would endeavor to pay a 
 uniform one. That has been looked for, and the custom in that respect 
 has universally obtained, as has also the one of never raising any money 
 especially for capital purposes, if there was any money even belonging 
 to revenue account that could be used. If a company wanted a build- 
 ing that cost say $10,000, it would in the first instance simply take that 
 amount out of any means in its treasury; other buildings or cars, en- 
 gines, new tracks, &c, might be needed and similarly paid for ; and so, 
 when a dividend period came — assuming that these buildings and other 
 items were things that represented the materal property of the com- 
 pany — it might find- that it had spent its "revenue" for this " construc- 
 tion," while this last is a subject for, and, properly, only for, an expendi- 
 ture of " capital." Stock or bonds may then be issued or sold, and this 
 process is called borrowing money for dividends, and, with admirable 
 consistency, the " capital" created is called " water," and an additional 
 emphasis is given to the word if the new capital should be issued direct 
 to the stockholders instead of being sold outside. That is a grave 
 error. Any stock or bonds issued by any process whatever, through 
 any channel at all, by stock-dividends, or anything else that represents 
 money that has been expended on the road for any substantial improve- 
 ment or increase of capacity, is strictly and beyond question legitimate; 
 and this is true even if it is not for a regular but an extra dividend. 
 In either case it is simply giving to the stockholder instead of the 
 money to which he is entitled, from the revenues of his property, some- 
 thing to represent that money and making him a sort of involuntary 
 contributor to the capital account. 
 
 There is another kind of expansion of capital, and perhaps it is the 
 only one that approaches the real meaning of watering, and even that 
 is entitled to some consideration as to its nature. Suppose a case in 
 which there is an issue of stock not represented in the original cost of 
 
140 tea:n\?poetatiox to the seaboard. 
 
 the road, but which may be represented by what may be the expanded 
 value of the material property. There is an idea abroad that there is a 
 very large amount of expansion in the value of the materials apper- 
 taining to a railroad, which is a great mistake. Very little of it ex- 
 pandsV value except simpiy the item of land. The rails, and super- 
 structure, and buildings, and all the equipment could at almost any 
 time be replaced at their original cost. There may be an idea of expan- 
 siou growing out of the favorable operations of the road; that is to say, 
 if it is profitable it might be the basis of capitalizing the revenue it 
 might be able to pay. If, to suppose an extreme case, it could pay 20 
 per cent, on an existing capital, it could pay 10 on double that amount, 
 and yet there would be no change in the value of the actual property. 
 Thisis like estimating the good-will of a business. 
 
 Now. about the return that stockholders in railroad companies are 
 fairly entitled to receive. It seems to be taken for granted that while 
 they may run all the chance of no return whatever, 10 per cent, per an- 
 num should be the maximum. Money in Wall street for March and 
 April last was worth an aggregate of per cent., equal to 3C -per cent, 
 per annum. 1 know of money borrowed that cost 6 per cent, for the use 
 of it for those two months. Men put their capital in railroads, taking 
 their chances of prosperity. When there is no prosperity it is all right ; 
 when there is prosperity its degree must be limited to 10 per cent. 
 This is a sort of ratchet arrangement ; you can push it one way as far as 
 you choose, but you cannot pull it the other way, for it catches. Why 
 10 per cent, should be so generally' taken as a maximum is very difficult 
 to determine. 
 
 I saw an article in one of the New York papers a short time ago, pro- 
 posing that Government should build a double-track air-line railroad 
 with steel rails, and to be used exclusively for freight from New York, 
 I believe, to Chicago ; trains to run at the uniform rate of eight miles 
 an hour, &c. It was either to be built and owned by the Government, 
 or, if a corporation would build it, it was proposed to allow it 12 per 
 cent, on the cost. This was an exceptional proposition, but it will be 
 long before capital will seek an investment in any enterprise where, 
 primarily, the chances are against it, with even such a limitation. Cap- 
 ital has the experience that the entire railroad system of the country 
 does not get 4 per cent, on the actual cost. I now mean cost without 
 including any expansions of capital, and I am fully justified in what I 
 just said, that, primarily, the chances are against it. 
 
 Some twenty years ago I used frequently to meet gentlemen from Eng- 
 land, who were in the habit of coming over here and looking into what 
 was then our somewhat undeveloped railroad system, with a view to in- 
 vesting. Away back as long ago as that, they used to say, the capitalists 
 who came over here — and I could mention names whom you well know by 
 reputation — " We should be glad to put money on this side but for the 
 uncertainty as to what your legislatures will do." The fear of adverse 
 legislation in case of prosperity was what kept their capital from coming 
 here, and our own capital has been similarly affected. The consequence of 
 this has been that, instead of good healthy capital, such as might have 
 been brought into use, an artificial or stimulated capital has been intro- 
 duced by means of municipal and State aid, the bonding of towns, and 
 many other unhealthy financial schemes. The amount of town bondaiu 
 the State of New York is enormous, and all issued for purposes to 
 which capital would, under the proper conditions, have gone in the 
 natural way. I think every one can understand a low limitation on any 
 kind of business when accompanied by a guarantee ; but when the risks 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 141 
 
 arc taken the matter is far from being so clear, and these risks are con- 
 stant and not removed, even by years of -comparative prosperity. 
 It has been said, and with much point, 
 
 " For what is worth, in anything, 
 But so much money as 't will bring?" 
 
 While we may not fully assent to this, we all know that the sale of 
 anything that is the fit subject of transfer is the only real test of value. 
 What the risks on investments in railroad stocks are considered to be, 
 is sufficiently indicated by the fact that a bond which guarantees 7 per 
 cent, is worth fully as much as a stock that expects to pay 10, even with 
 chances for more. In the case of the Xew York Central, its six per cent., 
 unsecured bonds, rule as high as its stock oa the expectation of 8. If 
 Wall street be mentioned, it must be remembered that the prices of the 
 bonds are made there, as well as those of the stock. 
 
 I spoke, a little while ago, of the supposition that large or increased 
 capital was made the basis, or, as it has been sometimes called, the ex- 
 cuse for high, charges. It has often been said, "they are collecting higher 
 charges now than formerly, for the purpose of paying dividends on their 
 increased capital ;" or, "they made their capital larger for the purpose 
 of taking more money out of the people." The amount of capital has 
 nothing whatever to do with charges. The amount taken is one thing, 
 a thing by itself, and is what the business will bear, considering always 
 the circumstances of which I have spoken in that connection. When 
 it is ascertained what the net product of these charges 
 
 The Chairman. Can I interrupt you with a suggestion 1 Suppose 
 that all the leading railroads from the interior to the sea-board double , 
 their capital-stock, will not the charges be higher than they are now ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Not a bit. 
 
 The Chairman. Are not these charges for through freight fixed by 
 the railroads in competition w 7 ith each other; and if this stock was 
 doubled and you were compelled to pay double the amount to your 
 stockholders, would there not be less competition than there now is? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. I can answer that, and illustrate the answer by 
 asking a question about one of the through lines. The Erie does not 
 pay dividends — it has doubled its capital — why doesn't it put up its 
 rates? 
 
 The Chairman. They are hoping to, are they not? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. As to that I am unable to say. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose they should all adopt the principle of doub- 
 ling their capital-stock, would it be possible then for them to compete 
 with each other upon the same rates 1 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Entirely so. It would not depend on the rate they 
 wanted to get, but upon the one they could get. The New York Cen- 
 tral might double its capital-stock, aud it could not if it would increase 
 its rates. 
 
 The Chairman. But are not railroad men like other men, somewhat 
 anxious to pay a fair dividend ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And would they not be likely to combine to do it? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Bates cannot be put up beyond a certain point — 
 business will not bear it. Beyond that point combinations can effect 
 nothing. There are certain laws of commerce so immutable that com- 
 binations can no more affect thorn than can legislation. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose, in this case, that there is no water commu- 
 nication and only- the five railroads, and they double their stock, don't 
 you think it would be more likely that they would pay a fair dividend 
 
142 ' TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 to the stockholders — because I suppose that stock goes into the hands 
 of parties who pay a consideration for it eventually — and could they, 
 injustice to these stockholders, carry for the same rates that they can 
 now I 
 
 Mr. Worcester, There never was such a thing heard of as a com- 
 pany that increased its capital-stock as an excuse or occasion for putting 
 up rates. It could just as well put up rates if the business would bear 
 it without increasing the capital, and, if able, pay double the rate. of 
 dividend. No company would double its capital or increase it as an 
 excuse for demanding higher rates. 
 
 The Chairman. But having doubled it, and all having doubled it, 
 would it be in their power to carry at the same rates and pay a fair 
 compensation to their stockholders? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. The aggregate compensation to the stockholders 
 would be just the same even with the same rates; with a doubled cap- 
 ital the dividend per cent, would simply be half as much. If an' at- 
 tempt should be made to double the rates so as to pay on the doubled 
 capital the same per cent, dividend as was previously paid, the dim- 
 inution of business would probably make the result a less aggregate 
 compensation to the stockholders than before. The ultimate element 
 of prosperity in any kind of business is this : The maximum volume at 
 the maximum price ; and this principle is of absolutely universal appli- 
 cation. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not doubt your rule as matter of theory in put- 
 ting on the prices that the products would bear, but it seems, by your 
 own statements, that they would bear much higher rates from nearer 
 points than they will from further points, and would they not bear a 
 little more if you had to pay more dividends? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. There are places on our line where as a mere mat- 
 ter of ability we might charge, we will say, a hundred dollars to take a 
 single barrel of flour to say a market-place, or else make the owner 
 team it or carry it in his pocket, perhaps ; but we do not do that. It is 
 possible, as a mere abstraction, that a road might charge anything it 
 liked between points where there was absolutely no competition; but 
 the principle I just now laid down would really regulate. The ques- 
 tion you ask is, however, hardly one of practice, because no road ever 
 had or has any intention of doing anything of the kind. 
 
 A writer in the Nation, of a few days ago, had an article on " watered 
 stock," and he spoke of the fact, well known to all railroad people, that 
 the companies having the largest capital, and that had watered, as it 
 is called, the most, are doing the work cheaper all over. 
 
 The Chairman. That proves that water lines are cheaper than rail- 
 road lines ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. It certainly proves that watered lines work the 
 cheapest. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Let me understand you. You soy, if I understand 
 you aright, that rates of freights are grounded, not upon the doctrine of 
 investment and return for investment ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. I say that. 
 
 Mr. Conexing. You say, on the contrary, that they are gauged upon 
 the doctrine of supply and demand ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Entirely so. 
 
 Mr. CoNKLiNG.And your mode of expressing that is what freight 
 commodities will bear ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Is it not true, speaking of special charges granted in 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 143 
 
 the past and of general railway acts existing now, that a maximum of 
 percentage is usually fixed in those acts? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Is it not true then in the case of every railway or- 
 ganization v that when their profits come up flush to that maximum, or 
 begin to exceed it, that a direct motive exists for some device by which 
 dividends shall be spread over a capital, so that the percentage will not 
 exceed the limit ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Let me inquire whether you suppose the limitation, 
 which is in most charters and general railroad acts, is fixed upon the 
 dividends to be paid on capital stock "? It is not in any case. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Not in any case ! 
 
 Mr. Worcester. None that I know of. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. I was coming to that ; upon what is it fixed ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. It is fixed upon the cost of the road. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. The actual investment ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir ; therefore even under the strict con- 
 struction of say the New York act, which contains a limitation, the 
 amount of capital stock could not be considered. The question would be, 
 bad it made more than so much per cent, on the money invested. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Is it not true that whenever the profits of a railway 
 exceed or endanger the limit, that a motive exists for some device, if 
 one can be invented, of bringing the same amount of return to the 
 stockholders within the licensed limit % That must be so. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. When the prosperity is considerable there is an 
 inducement to increase the capital. It covers, to^ome extent, the rate 
 of dividend, and has been done on some roads for that purpose ; and 
 always because existing rates warranted it, and not as an excuse for 
 higher rates. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Suppose a railroad capitalizes, as you express it, or 
 by some other form or name, I do not care what, issues stock for better- 
 ments — for earnings which have gone into the construction and mainte- 
 nance of the road ; does not that become parcel of the capital in respect 
 of which the percentage of dividends is by law graduated ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. It, does. Any money actually expended on the 
 road for construction, enlargements, or improvements, excluding, how- 
 ever, maintenance, enters into the basis of computation. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. How can you say then that if a railroad company, by 
 one mode or another which should conform to the statute requiring to 
 represent cost, enlarges or doubles its capital stock, that it is not then 
 in position to charge rates increased or doubled, provided, of course, 
 always, the commodity will bear it much greater than it would charge 
 upon a smaller cost or smaller capital If 
 
 Mr. Worcester. A question of disposition to charge would be one 
 thing, the question of ability to charge would be another. The ability 
 to charge depends upon what property will bear in view of its moving 
 to market, in view of the development and magnitude of the business, 
 and considerations of that kind. With a doubled capital stock, there 
 might be an inducement to a road to increase its rates, if those rates 
 would bear an increase ; it would be found, however, in every case I 
 ever knew of, that rates were already as high as the business would 
 bear in view of all the circumstances, and of the principle of the maxi- 
 mum amount of business of which I spoke. When it has been found in 
 some cases that these already existing rates produced more than a certain 
 percentage of revenue there has been a capitalization, but this has been 
 an effect, not a cause. 
 
144 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. After all, is it not true that cause and effect so 
 blend together there, that without being too philosophical, they are re- 
 lated to each other and do affect each other ? Is it not true that, if a 
 railroad could carry wheat for 15 cents a bushel from Chicago to New 
 York, and divide 8 per cent, upon a capital. of $25,000,000, when that 
 capital is increased to $45,000,000, that a direct inducement, whether 
 by way of consequence or cause has been created to charge 2d cents or 
 25 cents a bushel, provided they can compel the shipper to employ their 
 lines! 
 
 Mr. Worcester. I said before that where the capital is increased 
 the inducement would exist. But the inducement would end with air 
 inducement, because in all cases the highest rate to be obtained in view 
 of all the surroundings of business would have been already obtained. 
 A few minutes ago, the committee was considering a case in which it 
 was an implied allegation that rates were too low, the case of so-called 
 discrimination. I endeavored to throw some light on that case, and I 
 refer to it now in order to say that the implied allegation in that an- 
 swers in no small degree the particular line of inquiry we are now 
 upon. 
 
 Mr. Cockling. I should see the whole force of that if the case con- 
 tained one element, and that is the element of thorough and complete 
 competition. I see why it is that no man on Broadway can charge for 
 a given quantity of dry goods more than so much a yard, because every 
 man around him is selling in open market, and the law of supply and 
 demand will regulate it; but, if Mr. Stewart were the only vendor of 
 dry-goods on Manhattan Island or near there, the case would be differ- 
 ent ; so, when you assume a through line without a vigilant and able 
 competitor, I do not see the warrant by which you say that you cannot 
 carry freights'above a certain point, thereby meaning that point which 
 represents fairly the doctrine of equivalents. You come then to the 
 consideration meant by monopoly. If you have a load of oats to 
 send, and I am the only man by whom to send it, if I charge you so 
 much that you realize nothing, I do not see why you are compelled to 
 send it. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. If Mr. Stewart wanted to make the greatest pos- 
 sible amount of profit he would, however, have 'reference to the devel- 
 opment of his trade — profit being the product, the volume of trade 
 and the prices obtained are the factors, and he certainly would not 
 foolishly increase one of these factors by any measures that would 
 unduly diminish the other. He would maintain them both at their 
 relative maximum — causing thereby the largest product, and in the 
 other case you present, if 1 expected you to continue to raise oats and 
 to continue to employ me to carry them to market, I should, if I acted 
 wisely, keep the rate at a point that would encourage you to grow 
 oats. 
 
 The Chairman. Practically has not that point been reached, where a 
 certain article, the heaviest product in the list, cannot go to market? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. There might be a case in which the carrier of oats 
 would have to pay more for the feed of his horse while carrying to 
 market than his whole load was worth ; or in which the oats he was 
 carrying would not feed his horse on { he journey. Sometimes a steamer 
 cannot carry as much coal for cargo as she needs for her own fuel; and 
 it is a small distance a man can travel and carry his own supplies. 
 
 There is a point at which the movement of property would cease. I 
 settled, in my own mind, many years ago, a point from beyond which 
 rail transportation to the sea-board would be impracticable. ' That point 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 145 
 
 has, however, been vastly removed by reason of the reduced rates con- 
 sequent upon the through lines of cars — the lines which you have just 
 had under investigation — and a vastly increased area of production has 
 been developed and rendered contributory to commerce. I should not 
 like to venture on naming a new point just now, but that it exists is 
 unquestionable. This is perhaps insufficiently appreciated by many. 
 
 I said a little while ago that any increase in the capital stock of a com- 
 pany, of the kind usually denominated "water," was a consequence and 
 not a cause ; a consequence of prosperity or success, and not a cause 
 for demanding higher rates. To that statement I now want to add 
 that the prosperity or success of which I spoke is not due to the prices 
 received for performing certain work so much as it is to sound economy, 
 by the exercise of good judgment and skill, in the expense of perform- 
 ing that work. And as these, good judgment and skill, are no part of 
 any granted franchise, but are the undoubted individual property o 
 those who exercise them, it would be a rather startling proposition to 
 say that they were not entitled to, or could by any means be deprived 
 of, the benefits growing out of their exercise. 
 
 I make these statements now, so that they may be referred to in some 
 of the further remarks I shall make. 
 
 I have fully explained the principle upon which practically the maxi- 
 mum rates can be charged, and if now a practically minimum rate can 
 be ascertained we shall have the two extreme points between which 
 the rates may fluctuate. This practically minimum rate is the one 
 that it is necessary for the most unfavorably situated line, the one 
 the most expensive to operate, or the one that has but the fair aver- 
 age skill in management, to receive in order to pay its way without 
 giving any return to its stockholders. Practically all the trunk-lines 
 of the country are in competition, and a line of the kind I have just de- 
 scribed has its rates regulated, to all intents and purposes, by any 
 measures that regulate those of its competitors, so that all receive sub- 
 stantially the same prices. If, now, anything should be done, by either 
 general or special means, to affect below a certain point the business of 
 the line the more favorably situated, the less expensive to operate, or 
 that has in its management peculiar skill, the line I have been describ- 
 ing is destroyed. This is well worth remembering. The result is in- 
 evitable. 
 
 The Erie Eailroad Company made a small dividend the other day, 
 and, although it is said its capital is largely '< watered," the amount of 
 money required to pay the dividend I refer to would not have made 
 much of a one on its capital when squeezed even below the lowest 
 water- mark. One of the New York papers published several elaborately 
 prepared articles to show that even that dividend, small $s it was, had 
 not been earned. It was very decided upon this point, and its force of 
 assertion and array of facts were remarkable. Suppose, now, that by 
 any process the rates on lines that may have been somewhat more pros- 
 perous than the Erie were taken below the point at which it appears 
 that that line made substantially nothing; how long could it be run? 
 And if, as the cry is, there is such a lack of capacity in the railroads to 
 do the business, how would the question of movement at all be affected ? 
 Unless the natural law of demand forced the prices back to the mini- 
 mum point at which they stood before, the movement would be certainly 
 diminished by the capacity of one line. 
 
 The committee here took a recess of fifteen minutes. 
 10 T 
 
146 TRANSPORT AXIOM TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 The Committee met pursuant to adjournment. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. I was speaking, Mr. Chairman, about what is called 
 watered stock, ami of the only thing that constituted what could by 
 any possibility be at all fairly called water, as against a number of 
 things that were frequently called so popularly. The, only case, I sup- 
 pose, in which expansion can fairly be called water, is that of capitaliza- 
 tion of the increased valuation of the road or property over its actual 
 cost when originally and from time to time constructed or acquired. 
 Such increased value carries with it, however, the idea of prosperity. 
 A very large part of the value of railroad property is merely the cap- 
 italization of what net revenue it can have. Excepting what may be 
 called its personal property, which can be removed, and the value of 
 its real estate for other than railroad purposes, there is very little value 
 in a railroad at all. Prosperity is what constitutes the principal, if not 
 the only value in its property. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. You would capitalize the net incomes ! 
 
 Mr. Worcester. That would be sound and perfectly proper. It is a 
 question which has been discussed a great deal, whether the proper cost 
 of a road as regards its relation to the public should be taken at what 
 it originally cost those who built it, or at what it would cost to 
 put another road of the same kind in the same place under the ex- 
 isting condition of things. Without going into details on this point, 
 I wish to express an opinion, founded o:a careful and long obser- 
 vation, simply, however, for what it is worth, in view of the cir- 
 cumstances. There is not a main line of road of any magnitude, and 
 especially is this true of the New York Central and Hudson Eiver, 
 which, with its complete appurtenances and accessories,could be replaced 
 on the same route to-day for the amount on which the public are pay- 
 ing a revenue. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. In other words, I suppose that the Central and Hud- 
 son River roads, could not be replaced for a hundred and two or three 
 millions? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. For nothing like that. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. With all its structures and equipments'? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir. A. person not familiar with the subject 
 lias no adequate idea what it would cost to put such a road anywhere 
 at all through the section of country traversed by that line, and it may 
 even be a strong question whether it would be possible, in view of pres- 
 ent circumstances, to now construct a road at all, at any price, on some 
 of the locations it occupies. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Eights of way have, I suppose, vastly increased f 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir ; and about everything else connected with 
 the cost. When I illustrate by the New York Central and Hudson 
 Eiver, it is because I am more familiar with that line, and use it, therefore, 
 more intelligently than I could any other ; but all the broad general 
 principles applicable to it apply equally to the whole system. 
 
 It is said that the New York Central is very prosperous ; that it is 
 paying on a largely increased capital, capital not represented by actual 
 cost, and many other things of that kind. I laid down the principle a 
 little while ago that it was not so much. the amount of money received 
 as it was the amount of money saved that really constituted prosperity 
 in a road ; that the saving incidental to ability to manage economically 
 was a thing that was necessarily to the benefit of those who possessed 
 and exercised such ability, which would hardly be exercised beyond a 
 certain point, certainly not beyond the point which duty only demanded, 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 147 
 
 unless there was at least a part participation in the benefit resulting from 
 snch exercise. Look at the Erie and the Central, with regard to what 
 each takes from the public and what each pays to its stockholders. They 
 get the same prices on the through business.. The Erie on its through 
 business receives from the public for the same amount of work the same 
 amount of money that the Central does. The local tariff on the Erie 
 road, while I do not say this by authority, is certainly as high, and I am 
 perhaps safe in saying somewhat higher, than that on the .New York 
 Central. This is so for a number of reasons. The New York Central 
 has a considerable amount of local business that is peculiarly situated, 
 and has to be carried low to promote the business. Then, about passen- 
 ger-fares. The Erie Eoad on its through fares receives just the same as 
 the New York Central. The rule that the shortest line, all other things 
 being equal, or otherwise the. line which for any reason is limited, makes 
 the rate for all other lines is invariable in railroading. That is, the rate 
 such line has to make the others have, to take. The consequence is 
 that the New York Central passenger-fare limitation to two cents per 
 mile limits the Erie. This passenger-fare limitation on the Central is 
 worthy of some attentiou while it is before us. That road will earn this 
 year, stated in round numbers, $7,000,000 froin passengers. They are 
 carried at the uniform rate of two cents per mile. The rate of three 
 cents, that, as a rule, all other roads have as a minimum, many receiving 
 considerably more, would make that amount $10,500,000. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. That is if the increase did not diminish the number? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. The higher rate would, no doubt, affect somewhat 
 the number carried, but passenger business is hardly as sensitive in this 
 respect as freight business. The latter is connected in the minds of those 
 who contribute it with the idea of profit, while the former is not. This 
 2 cents per mile is not simply 2 cents as a general rule, but it is 2 cents 
 a mile invariably and under all circumstances, and is so rigidly applied 
 that if we had one-station two miles from another there would be just 
 4 cents difference ; if it were one mile, it would be 2 cents and no more. 
 To show how strictly this limitation is enforced, we leased a line where 
 the legal rate was 3 cents, and our consolidated line used a part of the 
 leased Hue in common ; when it came to establishing fares between cer- 
 tain points, we were advised by our counsel that we had an undoubted 
 right to charge in one case 3 cents under the lease, instead of being lim- 
 ited to 2 cents under the consolidation. I objected, feeling that some 
 question might arise, and thinking it was not worth while to take any 
 chance whatever. Our counsel was, however, perfectly clear, and we 
 acted accordingly. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do I understand that if you had two stations one mile 
 apart the fare between them would be 2 cents"? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir; and we should, in such a case, stop a train 
 and let off a single passenger for 2 cents. We have no stations just one 
 mile apart, but we have several that are but two or three miles, where 
 we charge 4 or 6 cents. I would say here that out of the six or seven 
 millions of persons that get into the cars of the New York Central in a 
 year, largely over one-half ride less than twenty miles, and pay us less 
 than 40 cents apiece. 
 
 Iu the case I was speaking of suits were commenced, and a decision 
 was made that our construction was wrong. The extra fare that under 
 this decision we had collected was about 3 or 4 cents on each passenger. 
 There is a law of New York imposing a penalty of $50 on railroads for 
 "extortion." These suits were for that penalty, aud were promoted by 
 persons who hunted over hotel registers and things of that kind until 
 
148 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 they ascertained cases enough to make the penalties involved nearly 
 half a million of dollars. And until a decision— not, however, in one of 
 our cases — that this penalty was in the nature of a notice, and, therefore, 
 could only be imposed but once for each individual, we were held liable 
 for extortion — the nature of which you will understand from what I have 
 said — from- persons who, as it appeared, had ridden up and down daily 
 for the express purpose of collecting the penalty. 
 
 The local fare on the Erie is rather more than on the New York Central. 
 I think that road still has some of the rights conferred by its original 
 charter, which may go beyond the 3 cents allowed by our general rail- 
 road act. At all events, its local passenger fare is considerably larger 
 than ours. 
 
 The Chairman. I will state that one complaint I have heard very fre- 
 quently of your road is that beeause you are limited to 2 cents a mile 
 you do not furnish, in ordinary cars, those accommodations which are 
 furnished by other roads, but that people are compelled to pay for draw- 
 ing-room cars and more expensive cars in order to pass comfortably over? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. I have heard that said, sir ; much oftener, perhaps, 
 than you have. It is a very common, although unwarranted, statement. 
 
 The Chairman. It is alleged, I say, to be done. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. We run certain trains o£ through cars that are 
 intended to be limited to drawing-room cars — special trains — not the kind 
 of trains at all that were ever contemplated by any law ; trains growing 
 out of modern progress and improvements. For instance, the Saratoga 
 special is a train intended to run especially from New York to Saratoga, 
 in order to accommodate that particular travel. It makes few stops. 
 People sometimes say that we make them so few just so that they cannot 
 be accommodated. The fact is, however, that if we undertook to accom- 
 modate the general public on that train or similar trains, we could not 
 run at the speed necessary to promote the special travel, and the purpose 
 of the train would be defeated. That passengers are forced into draw- 
 ing-room cars is entirely a mistake. I have known cases in which peo- 
 ple have unexpectedly come in excess of the capacity of the common 
 cars that were appropriated to a particular train, and there has been 
 temporary difficulty in providing for them. There never was the slight- 
 est intention, however, of forcing anybody into the drawing-room cars. 
 The purpose is, in fact we are required, to run enough cars to accommo- 
 date all those who apply for .passage in the ordinary cars. There is, too, 
 sometimes, a great deal of criticism about the quality of ordinary cars. 
 Opinions as to quality differ very much. When I first became connected 
 with the road, ordinary cars cost us about $2,500 each, but now each such 
 car costs $5,000 or $6,000. Whether that difference in cost gives any bet- 
 ter accommodation, you can judge. : During the past year our passenger 
 equipment has been very largely renewed ; and while there are very good 
 ordinary cars on other roads, I should not hesitate to have ours compared 
 with them. Opinions as to quality are often affected by circumstances. 
 I have been on a road when I could hardly see for dust, and the next 
 day not a particle of dust was to be seen. In the first instance many 
 would be inclined to think the road itself very bad, while in the secoud 
 their opinion would be modified. A person occupying a car that " tee- 
 tered " might say the road and rails were very rough, but on going into a 
 car, even in the same train, that happened to be " hung" differently, he 
 would say it was very smooth. And in many cases the frame of miDd a 
 person is in affects his opinion. The intention of the road— and it is 
 made a matter of sober consideration — is to afford all the convenience 
 and comfort, and everything of that kind for the traveling public. There 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 149 
 
 is a recognized propriety in this on the part of managers. Even where 
 there might not be an absolute obligation and the supposed indifference, 
 or, as it is even said, attempts to gratuitously discommode, is one of 
 many other misapprehensions. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. I understand you, on all these trains when you have 
 these palace-cars, you always have a sufficient number of ordinary cars 
 to accommodate people ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. That is the intention. We now put on a certain 
 number of common cars on every train. At one time we undertook to 
 run between certain points certain trains, called " special expresses." 
 They were not intended to take up much, if any, between those points, 
 say between New York and Saratoga, for illustration. It was intended 
 originally that they should be composed entirely of palace-cars, being 
 put on in excess of the ordinary trains run for local use, and. to relieve 
 those trains. Putting them on was entirely a matter of volition ; and 
 as they were to accomplish a specific purpose, general travel going on 
 them would have entirely defeated their purpose. And while this would 
 have taken away all the benefit from the general travel, it would, also, 
 have taken away all benefit from the special travel. But all trains are 
 now run with more or less ordinary cars on enough, usually, to fully 
 accommodate the people who wish to occupy them. There is sometimes 
 a rush, and sometimes passengers want much room ; but there never has 
 been a case of leaving off a common car for the purpose of forcing any- 
 body into a drawing-room car. Occupying them is entirely a matter of 
 choice, and sometimes fault is found because there are not more of 
 them and less of the ordinary ones. 
 
 I was speaking of the local passenger charges on the Brie road being 
 higher than ours ; that the money received from the public by that 
 road for a given service would be more than the money received by the 
 New York Central road for a similar service. 
 
 The Chairman. As I understand it, your freights are higher than 
 theirs? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Local do you mean ? 
 
 The Chairman. Taking the average freights. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. I think not. They are, on the contrary, consider- 
 ably less. 
 
 The Chairman. I have a statement which I will show you presently 
 in regard to the matter. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Their rates are higher. Their through-rates are 
 substantially the same as ours, and their local rates are more. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Are your freight and passenger rates alike limited by 
 law? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. No, sir. The passenger-rate is limited 2 cents a 
 mile on way-passengers. There is no limitation on through, and there 
 is no limitation on the rate per ton per mile on freight ; that is practi- 
 cally regulated by the considerations I spoke of a little while ago. 
 
 (To the Chairman:) With regard to the statement you show me. You 
 have down simply the rate per ton per mile. You must, however, con- 
 sider the fact that the Erie road carries much of a kind of tonnage that 
 we do not carry. 
 
 The Chairman. I wanted the explanation because I wanted you to 
 state that, notwithstanding your increase of stock, you were carrying 
 cheaper than the Erie, which was not paying dividends. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. You understood ray statement correctly. With 
 regard to any apparent difference, the Erie Railroad carries very con- 
 siderable quantities of coal, lumber, and freight of that kind. To such 
 
150 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 extent as we carried the same kind of freight, our rates would be lower 
 than theirs. On similar kinds of freight our rate would be lower than 
 tbeirs. The freight on the New York Central is very largely first-class 
 freight, that which pays the highest price, and this affects the figures 
 you have. Our rate on local freight is lower than theirs for the same 
 kind of freight. I make these statements, not by way of reflective com- 
 parison, but only for the purpose of illustrating the case. One road, 
 then, gets, we will say, the same amount of money from the public as 
 the other. It is of no consequence just now how large the capital stock 
 of the Erie may be. Whatever it is, th e receipt by that road of certainly 
 as much money as the Central would receive for a similar service does 
 not produce any net result at all to its stock. I explained a short time 
 ago about a small dividend it had declared ; but the statement is sub- 
 stantially true that it makes no return to its stockholders. The differ- 
 ence in prosperity between the two roads is caused partly by the advan- 
 tage of the route of the Central, but mainly by the skill exercised in 
 its management. This fact is the real secret of the thing. That skill 
 is the property of those who exercise it. 
 
 To take another view of the subject. If the New York Central, with- 
 out committing any extravagance whatever, or making any really un- 
 necessary expenditure of money, by merely permitting its expenses to 
 grow to the point where they constantly tend, by simply letting up the 
 constant oversight it keeps on its expenses, would, almost before it knew 
 it, reduce the dividend results one-half. This is a perfectly plain mat- 
 ter to those who are' familiar with the subject. For illustration : I am 
 paid a certain salary. It might be doubled without objection on my 
 part. If I should tell you what I get, you, perhaps, might say that 
 double was no more than I was fairly entitled to. I am quite sure you 
 would not say the double amount was a waste of money. And what 
 would work in my case would work similarly through all the personnel 
 of the road. This alone would put up the expense enormously, and 
 what is the case with regard to labor in its various forms is equally true 
 of supplies of every kiud and of everything that enters into expenses. 
 Rails are offered, we will suppose, at a certain price. It might be said, 
 with truth, " That is an ordinary, fair market-price; certainly not ex- 
 travagant. We will purchase.'' This course would, no doubt, be all 
 that duty could require. But suppose, now, that instead of stopping 
 there, a deal of troublesome pains was taken ; that by getting one man 
 to compete with another, buying at certain seasons of the year, and 
 paying cash ; that by planning, even at the expense of sleep, and by avail- 
 ing himself of every fair business means, five or ten dollars a ton could 
 and should be saved, where should the beuefit rest ? These are the things 
 that constitute skill in management, taking no more from the public, 
 but making every dollar expended do its legitimate work, and by this 
 comes the profit that the ISJew York Central makes. When I say the 
 New York Central dividends would, under the circumstances I named, 
 be reduced at least one-half, I speak entirely within bounds. My 
 knowledge of how its affairs have been managed from its very begin- 
 ning tells me that. It might even be a question whether it could goon 
 paying any dividends at all, if the rigidity of the rules by which expenses 
 are regulated were simply relaxed, without any extravagance whatever 
 being encouraged. To make a restatement, the dividends paid are not 
 due so much to the amount of money received as they are to the skill 
 with which the road is operated, ami the saving resulting from the ex- 
 ercise of such skill. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Could it not be done in another way, by charging to con- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 151 
 
 struction what belongs £o tbe running expenses, or to the general ex- 
 penses of the road ? You could reduce that way, couldn't you, or add, 
 as you chose ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir ; but that would not be profit in fact, and 
 any so-called profit made by that means would certainly not be ob- 
 noxious to the allegations made against railroads concerning their 
 profits. The cry used to be that that thing was done. The cry is now 
 the other way. I can remember a time when, if a road charged any- 
 thing whatever to construction, it was said they were practicing a fraud 
 on the poor stockholders, who were thereby deluded into the idea that 
 it was making a profit when it was not. Now it is just the other way, 
 and it is said, " You charge everything to expenses and are taking money 
 from the public." When Mr. Corning, Mr. Keep, Dean Eichmond, and 
 that class of men were managing the road, the Central paid 8 per cent, 
 for a small part of the time, but for a large part of the time but 6 per 
 cent. From 1853, the time of the original formation of the New York 
 Central road, down to 1868, when the Vanderbilt people came in, the 
 average dividends paid on the stock were a little less than 7 per cent. 
 That was on what was called the old stock, not increased by any opera- 
 tion whatever. During all that time, however, the rates of freight were 
 considerably higher than they have since been. In 1865, the last year 
 that Mr. Eichmond managed the road, the average per ton per mile, in- 
 cluding all classes of freight, was 3.26 cents. In 1866, the year that Mr. 
 Keep managed it, it was 2.87. 
 
 I beg to submit a table showing the tonnage, mileage, average haul, 
 earnings, and rate per ton per mile ou each through and way freight 
 from 1862 to 1871, both years inclusive, being ten years. The year 1872 
 has not yet been prepared in this particular form, but I would state 
 that the general average is within r %g of a cent of 1871. It must be 
 remembered in looking at this table that it is founded upon a very large 
 proportion of first-class freight. The reduction in 1870 and 1871 is 
 worth special attention ; the rates then (and in 1872) were much 
 lower than ever before. 
 
 New York Central Railroad. 
 Freight, from 1862 to 1871, inclusive — ten years. 
 
 
 Tonnage. 
 
 Mileage. 
 
 Average 
 haul. 
 
 Earnings. 
 
 Per ton per mile. 
 
 
 ,d 
 
 
 A 
 
 
 A 
 
 
 A 
 
 
 A 
 
 
 
 
 tD 
 
 
 ba 
 
 
 M 
 
 
 tii 
 
 
 M 
 
 
 
 DO 
 
 f- 
 © 
 
 3 
 o 
 
 ,3. 
 H 
 
 & 
 £ 
 
 a 
 o 
 
 u 
 
 H 
 
 & 
 
 £ 
 
 3 
 o 
 
 a 
 H 
 
 
 3 
 
 Q 
 
 H 
 
 & 
 * 
 
 
 o 
 
 is 
 
 a 
 o 
 
 
 Tons. 
 
 Tons. 
 
 Miles. 
 
 Miles. 
 
 
 Miles. 
 
 
 
 CIS. 
 
 Ota. 
 
 Ots. 
 
 1862 
 
 777, 000 
 
 610, 000 
 
 233,000,000 
 
 64,000,000 
 
 
 105 
 
 $4,873,000 
 
 $1,728,000 
 
 2.10 
 
 2.70 
 
 2.22 
 
 1868 
 
 824, 000 
 
 624, 000 
 
 247,000,000 
 
 65,000,000 
 
 ^ 
 
 104 
 
 5,578,000 
 
 1,857,000 
 
 2.26 
 
 2.85 
 
 2.38 
 
 1864 
 
 766, 000 
 
 790, 000 
 
 230,000,000 
 
 84,003,900 
 
 'rt 
 
 106 
 
 5,711,000 
 
 3,758,000 
 
 2.49 
 
 •3.28 
 
 2.70 
 
 1865 
 
 640, 000 
 
 634, 000 
 
 192,000,000 
 
 72,000.000 
 
 § 
 
 113 
 
 5,071,000 
 
 2,980,000 
 
 2.95 
 
 4.13 
 
 3.26 
 
 1866 
 
 743, 000 
 
 858, 000 
 
 223,000,000 
 
 108,000,000 
 
 
 125 
 
 6,050,000 
 
 3,462,000 
 
 2.71 
 
 3.20 
 
 2.87 
 
 1867 
 
 833, 000 
 
 834, 000 
 
 25/1.000,000 
 
 112,000.000 
 
 © 
 
 134 
 
 5,298,000 
 
 3,605,000 
 
 2.12 
 
 3.21 
 
 2.46 
 
 1868 
 
 851, 000 
 
 994, 000 
 
 255,000,000 
 
 111.000.000 
 
 a 
 
 112 
 
 5,674,000 
 
 3,816,000 
 
 2.23 
 
 3.43 
 
 2.60 
 
 1869 
 
 1,189,000 
 
 1,093, 000 
 
 350,000,000 
 
 118,030,000 
 
 O 
 
 108 
 
 6451,000 
 
 4,006,000 
 
 1.81 
 
 3.31 
 
 2.21 
 
 1870 
 
 1,547, 000 
 
 1,323, 000 
 
 464,000,000 
 
 150,000,000 
 
 o 
 
 113 
 
 6,774,000 
 
 4,187,000 
 
 1.41 
 
 2.78 
 
 1.78 
 
 1871 
 
 1,903, 000 
 
 1,344, 000 
 
 571,000,000 
 
 160,000,000 
 
 
 119 
 
 7,177,000 
 
 3,700,000 
 
 1.27 
 
 2.31 
 
 1.49 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Have you the dividends of the road for the respective 
 years % 
 Mr. Worcester. I have not in the form of a statement, but they 
 
152 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 were an average of a little less than 7 per cent. The dividends in the 
 two years of Mr. Eichrnond's and Mr. Keep's control were 6 per cent. 
 In 1871, when we were paying on a larger capital, the average rate per 
 ton per mile was 1.49 cents. The difference between that and 3.26, 
 which is more than double, or 2.87, which is very nearly double, involves 
 between nine and ten millions of dollars a year, and would have made 
 the dividends very large, as such difference would have been all gain. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What were your gross receipts in those two years 1 
 
 Mr. Worcester. I have not that with me in writing just now, but I 
 can tell you pretty nearly. About fifteen or sixteen millions of dollars. 
 
 Mr. Davis. In each of the two years f 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir ; somewhere about that, approximately. 
 
 Mr. Davis. And the change would have involved nine or ten mil- 
 lions 1 
 
 Mr. AVorcbster. Yes, sir. You will observe that the rates are more 
 than double in one case, and nearly double in the other. I speak within 
 bounds. I say fifteen or sixteen millions of dollars of aggregate earn- 
 ings. Nearly $9,000,000 was freight in 1865, the year the rates were 
 more than double. The next year freight was nearly $10,000,000, and 
 the rates nearly double. The ability to pay 8 per cent., as is done now, 
 is not due to the rates received, but is due to the economy with which 
 the road is worked.. 
 
 The Chairman. There is a largely increased business, is there not? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir ; and the increased business is due very 
 largely to that very process of decreasing rates. 
 
 Mr.DAVis. Have you changed your system ,of keeping accounts in 
 the mean time 1 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Not the slightest. I had personal and exclusive 
 charge of them from 1853 until within a year, for many years keeping 
 the general accounts with my own hands. There has never been any 
 charge 1 whatever in regard to them. It has always been a question for 
 sober consideration what amounts have been expended for things that 
 fairly and actually constitute permanent improvement, and these have 
 always had plain business justice in adjusting accounts. No small part 
 of the profit in a prosperous road is due to the personal power or ability 
 of a man, or of some few men, to accomplish certain things ; I mean, now, 
 things that few men can accomplish. I know cases in which thousands 
 of dollars have been saved by the mere ability to say " we will "or " we 
 will not" do so and so in a way that saved instead of provoked contro- 
 versy. This personal power is what saves contributions to others to- 
 preserve yourself; what saves all " blackmailing," of which, in one way 
 or another, there is very much enforced against such as have not the 
 power I speak of, and it certainly is individual property. 
 
 There is a fact in the history of the railroad system of the country 
 that is well worth considering in connection with the subject of ex- 
 panded capital, and the payment of dividends thereon, a fact that I 
 have never heard mentioned in the discussions upon that subject. I 
 mean the extinction of capital caused by the foreclosure of mortgages. 
 There are few roads that have not, at some time, had capital stock, and 
 part of, or all, debt cut off by this process. Eoads with capital stock" 
 representing merely mortgage bonds form the rule rather than the excep- 
 tion. Foreclosure of the third mortgage, then of the second, and then 
 of the first, was a common experience, in each case all subordinate 
 claims being extinguished. With few exceptions, the whole system 
 passed through this condensing process, and I make the assertion with 
 confidence that the utmost expansion for prosperity is far short of the 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 153 
 
 contraction caused by the adversity that was incidental to such process. 
 There is one case connected with the New York Central Road that I 
 will speak of by way of illustration. We operate a line from Canan- 
 daigua to Niagara Palls. It was originally called the Canandaigua and 
 Niagara Falls Road. It was built at a cost of $3,500,000. Its capital 
 stock and funded debt at a certain time were $3,000,000, the balance of 
 the cost being unsecured debt. In 1855 we had in this State a board 
 of railroad commissioners. They were clothed with certain discretion- 
 ary powers in respect of asking information, and they asked, among 
 other things, for an estimate of the value of the various roads in the 
 State ; such estimate to be made especially with reference to their call, 
 and to be irrespective of anything relating to cost, either by money 
 actually spent or the amount of capital nominally representing cost. 
 Mr. Davis. Was that for purposes of taxation % 
 Mr. Worcester. No, sir. It was for more general and statistical 
 information. It was done for two years. The estimated value of the 
 road I spoke of, made for the purpose referredito, was $3,307,000 ; so 
 that on either of the three bases, of money actually expended, nominal 
 cost as shown by capital, or estimated actual value of the property, 
 there was an investment of nearly three million and a half, and there 
 were one hundred and seven miles of road. There was a first mortgage 
 for $1,000,000 which was foreclosed and everything else was cut off. A 
 company was organized by the holders of the bonds secured by this 
 mortgage, with a capital stock of a million, and the road was then leased 
 to the New York Central. Under the lease we pay 6 per cent, on 
 $1,000,000, making $60,000 per year on an original investment of 
 $3,500,000. This case is an illustration of many, very many others. 
 
 I have often inquired in my own mind why 10 per cent, has been so 
 often assumed as a maximum, or even a fair return to be made for capital 
 invested in railroads. It is a question that I have never been able to 
 answer, nor have I heard any one else answer it. I saw a newspaper 
 proposition some time ago to have the Government promote the build- 
 ing a great through line, and 12 per cent, was spoken' of, but for some 
 reason 10 per cent, is usually named, almost as a matter of course. 
 There is a thing about the Central that I desire to call attention to in 
 this connection. It is something which has not been heretofore stated 
 at all, although it was a computation made some time ago, and is worth 
 putting on record. For a number of years the Central, as I have already 
 said, paid 8 per cent, for a part of the time, but for the larger part 6 
 per cent, on a certain capital stock, which capital stock, added to its 
 funded debt, bearing but little over G per cent, interest, was less thau 
 the road actually cost, for there had been some considerable expendi- 
 ture of revenue on the road which was not represented by stock 
 or debt. From 1853 down to 1869, take the amount of dividends paid 
 and add interest on debt, and the amount will be largely, very largely 
 less than 10 per cent, on the cost of the road. On the amounts that 
 were each year deficient, from 10 per cent, on the cost of the road com- 
 pute interest down to 1869, when the road commenced paying somewhat 
 more than 10 per cent, on its cost, and there would be shown a certain 
 amount of arrearages. Well, in 1869 the road commenced paying, as I 
 have said, somewhat more thau 10 per cent, on its cost, and perhaps it 
 may be said that by and by the arrearages I mentioned will have 
 been paid, so that thereafter the result will be tnore than equal to a 10 
 per cent, return. So far from this being true, however, the real condi- 
 tion is that the present excess over 10 per cent, on actual cost hardly pays 
 
154 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 the interest on the arrearages I described, and will never extinguish any 
 part of the principal. 
 
 It is somewhat peculiar that railroads are held to a sort of present 
 moral accounting, without regard to the circumstances of their previous 
 history or experience. Eoads that have had a precarious existence for 
 years— that have paid very small dividends, or none at all— are indicted, 
 so to speak, as soon as any benefit is reached. The Hudson Eiver and 
 the old Michigan Southern roads are examples of this treatment, I 
 have not had an opportunity to compute the result to the present of 
 those years when they respectively paid nothing to those who had 
 invested money in them, in a manner similar to the computation made 
 for the low dividends on Central, but I am confident that quite as pecu- 
 liar a result would be. shown. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. What is the actual stock of your road now ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. About eighty-nine and a half million. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. The funded debt is how much ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. About sixteen and a half million. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. The two sums together would make the money in the 
 road ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. The funded debt does not in every case enter into 
 cost of road. A part of our fuuded debt, for instance, represents invest- 
 ments other than the road, from which revenue is derived sufficient to 
 take care of the interest on that part of the debt. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. It would be property? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir; but property not included in what I should 
 state to be the cost of the road. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. You have other property beside road-bed and road ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir. We have two very expensive bridges 
 across the Hudson at Albany, and various other things which are not 
 included in the cost of the road, or in such cost as stated in our reports 
 or tabulations therefrom. These are assets other than the road. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. How is that stock made up ? It is not the original 
 capital stock of the company, of course ; it has been increased from time 
 to time? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. The present capital stock was made when the New 
 York Central and the Hudson Eiver Companies consolidated. It was 
 made by the combined companies. 
 
 Mr. Davis. When did that consolidation take place? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. In November, 1869. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Iu all your remarks, then, to-day, when you speak of 
 the New York Central, you include the Hudson ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. In all references previous to 1869, 1 meant usually 
 the New York Central alone; iu all cases since 1869, usually the con- 
 solidated New York Central and Hudson Eiver. 
 
 Mr. ConkxjnGt. For the information of other members of the commit- 
 tee, I will state, and if correct you will confirm it, that originally the 
 New York Central Eailway consisted of numerous roads, the Albany 
 and Schenectady, the Utica and Schenectady, the Syracuse and Utica, the 
 Eochesteraud Syracuse, the Buffalo and Rochester, and others, I think. In 
 1S53 a consolidation of all these roads took place, which aggregated the 
 capital stock they had represented. Thus it stood until 1869, when the 
 New York Central Eailway, as an entirety, made up of these original roads, 
 and the Hudson Eiver Railroad were consolidated, and that last con- 
 solidation represents now the entire road as one. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. There is one thing further I do not understand. I see 
 that in 1863, long after the whole road had been consolidated from 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 155 
 
 Albany to Buffalo, the capital stock was $28,631,000, and that now it is 
 $S9,000,000. Is that causedby stock certificates, or stock dividends? 
 
 Mr. Oonkling. It is caused most largely by the consolidation since 
 ■with the Hudson River Eoad, which takes in the whole capital of that 
 road, that being in 1869, you know, six years subsequent to 18G3, 
 when the road west of the Hudson reached but twenty-three million. 
 The great item is the addition ot the Hudson Eiver Eoad. 
 
 (To Mr. Worcester.) Please state how the stock was filled up to the 
 eighty-nine million. You began in 1863 with twenty-eight million west 
 of the Hudson ; you had sixteen or seventeen million represented by the 
 Hudson ; those two do not make the eighty-nine million. Will you state 
 the way in which the residue was filled up ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. The capital stock of the two companies at the time 
 of the consolidation consisted of about $45,000,000. There was an issue 
 of 80 per cent, in "interest certificates" on the Central. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. That was in 1869 ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. No, sir; that was in 1868; an issue of 80 per cent, 
 in "interest certificates" on New York Central. The capital-stock was 
 then fixed at ninety millions of dollars for the new consolidated com- 
 pany, and that was divided between the stockholders in the New York 
 Central and those in the Hudson Eiver, in proportion to their respective 
 holdings; and in doing this the 80 per cent, in "interest certificates" 
 issued on New York Central were absorbed. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Eighty per cent, of the New York Central would be 
 less than $14,00.0,000 ? 
 
 Mr. Davis. O, no; it would be considerably over $14,000,000. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. It would be over $23,000,000, the capital stock of 
 the New York Central proper then being about $29,000,000. 
 
 Mr. Noravood. That still does not make up the $90,000,009, and the 
 object of my question was to know upon what the increased estimate of 
 the consolidated stock was based. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. I stated already that when the arrangement was 
 made for consolidation the capital stock of the new company was fixed 
 at $90,000,000. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. I understand that; bat the stock of the New York 
 Central was $28,000,000, the dividend was 80 per cent., made before 
 the consolidation. The Hudson Eiver then was $16,000,000 in round 
 numbers; say $45,000,000, with the 80 per cent, of the New York 
 Central to be added, making $68,000,000. Now, upon what was the in- 
 creased amount of the stock between $68,000,000 and $90,000,000 based ? 
 Why did they fix it at that amount ? Was it arbitrary ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. It was simply a matter of agreement and arrange- 
 ment in making the basis for the organization of the new consolidated 
 company. The capital stock of the new company was fixed at $90,000,000. 
 The outstanding obligation in capital stock and "interest certificates" 
 at that time amounted to what you have stated. Tne capital stock of 
 the new company having been fixed at the amount named, that amount 
 was apportioned among those who held the New York Central stock, 
 the Hudson Eiver stock, and the New York Central "interest certifi- 
 cates " respectively: There were two properties and interests to be com- 
 bined. This combination had grown to be an absolute necessity, as will 
 be thoroughly and feelingly understood by all who are familiar with the 
 "break of connection" at Albany early in 1867, when adverse inter- 
 ests controlled the respective lines, a thing that the public, even more 
 than the roads, were to be benefited by the non-recurrence of, and this 
 fixing of the amount of capital stock was one of the details to settle in 
 arranging 1 for combination. This arrangement did not necessarily in- 
 
156 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 volve paying a dividend on the whole of it, or, if paid on the whole, at 
 any particular rate. It was only an amount fixed by the agreement for 
 consolidation. To a certain extent it may be called arbitrary. What- 
 ever net revenue the new company might have would have to be applied 
 to the new amount of capital stock, and it has never affected, one way 
 or the other, the amount of such net revenue. If the amoun t of the capi- 
 tal stock had been made different, it would have affected the rate of di- 
 vidends, but not all the aggregate amount paid therefor. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. The question, as I understand it, that the committee 
 wants answered is, what, when you came to issue stock, represented the 
 difference between $68,000,000, of which the previous roads made up 
 the component parts, and the total of $89,000,000, which, in point of 
 fact, you did issue, and which is now held as stock? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Will you please restate that ! 
 
 Mr. Conexing. I mean this : Here is a difference between $68,000,000 
 of stock in fact as it was, and $S9,000,00t) of stock in fact as it is. Do 
 you mean that that is a sheer vacuum, a mere arbitrary ipse dixit, or do 
 you mean that that difference is represented by some element of cost or 
 increment of value which entered into the consolidation? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. The law says that any consolidated company formed 
 under it shall fix the amount of its capital stock. The amount in this 
 case was fixed at $90,000,000 by the consolidation agreement. The 
 market value of the respective stocks had some influence in deciding 
 what amount should be fixed for the new company. This $90,000,000 
 represented approximately the market- value of the aggregate volume of 
 stock. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. If I do not interrupt you, was that market-value 
 largely above par ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester.' It was far above par at that time. The market- 
 value of the old stocks amounted approximately to the amount at which 
 the new capital stock was made. There was some question about the 
 ability of the road, even by economical and skillful management, to pay 
 a reasonable dividend, say 7 or 8 per cent., on the amount of the new 
 capital stock ; but, as to that, it had to take its chance ; it was, after all, 
 but a question of a smaller rate on a larger amount, as against a larger 
 rate on a smaller amount ; the relative change of two factors having in 
 view the same product in each case, for in either case the net revenue 
 of the road would have been just the same. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. So $89,000,000 represented, first, the selling value, and 
 secondly, the earning value of the stocks ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Substantially so. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. One more question, if you please. Did you estimate 
 the value of the two roads consolidated at $89,000,000 as property on 
 the market, or was it what the roads had actually expended ? 
 
 Mr. Sherman. They estimated the value of the property at $89,000,000 
 over and above its debt. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Did you estimate simply the value of the stock in the 
 market, or did you estimate the value of the road over and above your 
 debt? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. This amount was somewhat more than the money 
 which had been actually expended on the road. The amount put down 
 in the table you have' is $63,000,000. There had been, however, some 
 eight or ten millions additional to that expended from revenue, which 
 was one of the reasons why the stocks stood so high in market ; this ex- 
 penditure had given so much more earning capacity. There was, how- 
 ever, no strict reference to the cost of the road in fixing that auiouQt. 
 That was done partly with reference to the two considerations that 1 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 157 
 
 have mentioned, and partly as a means of adjusting relative values so as 
 to accomplish consolidation. 
 
 The next subdivision that the committee have made is facts in rela- 
 tion to the consolidation of railroads in the States, either by purchase 
 or otherwise, and the effects which sucli consolidations have had upon 
 the cost of transportation. 
 
 In 1852 there were seventeen railroad companies constituting the 
 line from New York to Chicago. There were eighteen from Boston to 
 Chicago. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Constituting all lines, or one line ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Substantially one by what are now the New York 
 Central and Lake Shore Eoads. Some of these had been formed by pre- 
 vious consolidations of still smaller companies. In 1853 the New York 
 Central was formed by the consolidation of ten companies, making a 
 single company, with its line reaching from Albany to Buffalo. The 
 various companies that composed the line from Buffalo to Chicago, that 
 is the American line, were consolidated subsequently, as were also two 
 lines between Albany and Boston. Today there are but two companies 
 in the line from New York to Chicago, and three in that from Boston to 
 Chicago. 
 
 All the permanent and progressive reduction of rates that I have 
 spoken of, and the whole practical efficiency of Vhe entire railroad sys- 
 tem, has been due entirely to consolidation or to the concentrated con- 
 trol of lines originally. If there is anything that is still especially 
 needed, it is further consolidation. We had ten roads between Albany 
 and Buffalo. There was just about as much efficiency in operating ten 
 roads as there would be in ten men trying to do a thing that one ought 
 to do. Each board of directors had its own say and its own local inter- 
 est ; each company had its own profit to make and its own schemes to 
 advance. There was no obligation on the part of any one company to 
 do anything for any other. Through lines of cars could be run only by. 
 very complicated and embarrassing arrangements. I can remember the 
 time when conductors were changed at the end of each one of the roads 
 of the old line between Buffalo and Albany. In some cases a ticket 
 could not be bought through from Albany to Buffalo. The elements of 
 usefulness and economy were very few. In regard to freight, there was 
 no obligation on the part of any one of the roads to take a single pound 
 of it from another. Except so far as they might choose to agree with 
 each other, it involved changing at each terminus. The policy of con- 
 solidation was what first led to the prorating of freight charges. They 
 are now prorated where the old number of lines could never have been 
 got into any agreement. Other countries, too, have been - carrying on 
 this system of consolidation. All the railroads in France have been 
 combined into four systems. In England substantially all the railroads 
 have been absorbed into five or six general systems. The London and 
 Northwestern, the great railroad of the country, absorbed nearly all 
 the lines with which it connected, until it got to be an enormous concern, 
 and yet, within a very short time, it has combined with the Lancashire 
 and Yorkshire, which puts pretty nearly all the roads in the upper p'art 
 of England under one general control. 
 
 If there is any principle involved in having no railroad in single con- 
 trol exceed, say, one hundred miles in length, the same general rule 
 might just as well limit to a single mile. The objection that is frequently 
 strongly urged against consolidation is the so-called great power created. 
 There seems to be a frightful idea that any power that may be exercised 
 for good will certainly be exercised for evil. In limiting the simple ex- 
 ercise of power so as to surely insure against the possibility of doing 
 
158 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 evil, it is very easy to defeat the ability to do good. What is the really 
 proper course to take when an absolate advantage is considered as 
 against a remote contingency of disadvantage, or as against mere possi- 
 bility, is quite easy to determine. In ordinary matters there is never 
 
 ^That consolidation has, in all its general effects, been beneficial, as 
 well to the public as to the railroads, seems to me to be entirely without 
 question. There is, however, no good reason for supposing Shat consol- 
 idation does really increase power. For all the purposes of practical 
 power to accomplish the terrible purposes so much feared, there would 
 be a great deal more ability in the separate companies than in the com- 
 bined company. The combined company is, at least, answerable as a 
 unit, and the absence of moral responsibility that is supposed to exist, 
 because by reason of an aggregation of parties it is so divided that no 
 oue, as it is said, is responsible, would be vastly increased if such unit 
 were divided into the fractions from which it was formed. Each frac- 
 tion, in this case, would have the full effect of the whole unit. 
 
 The effect of direct personal influence or of association with individ- 
 uals by the managers would be a great deal less in the consolidated 
 company than in the separate companies, for in this case again each 
 would have as much effect as the whole. Experience has shown this to 
 be so. This power, of which so much is said, is alleged to be exercised 
 on legislators, on judges, on common councils, and on coroners, and one 
 would sometimes be almost led to suppose that our legislatures and our 
 courts were utterly devoid of integrity. As representative and experi- 
 enced men, you, gentlemen, can be competent witnesses upou this point. 
 
 I have often asked to have pointed out any railroad law of New York 
 passed during the past twenty years that can be called favorable to the 
 railroads at the expense of the public, and have never fouud any per- 
 son who could do it, and for the best reason in the world. There is 
 sometimes an idea that a grant of the simple right to form a corpora- 
 tion is conferring such a great favor that thereafter it is justifiable to 
 impose all sorts of conditions on what are called these creatures of our 
 creation. I could say to my boy that he must not go out of the house 
 without asking my permission. It would be perfectly proper, for obvi- 
 ous reasons, that I should reserve that condition. But when my boy 
 asks me if he may go out, and I tell him yes, that that puts him under 
 an obligation to me of a kind that I should make conditions with him 
 for granting his request is not at all evident. There are a great many 
 things that either State or national authorities do at the request of rail- 
 road companies that are simple grants of power for promoting efficiency 
 of public service, and in which there is nothing that takes anything 
 from the people, and which form no ground whatever for obligations. 
 
 One illustration as to the influence that can be used with common 
 councils. We wanted to make an improvement in a certain city ; one 
 that would cost nearly a million dollars. It was oue that would not 
 bring a siugle penny back to the road, for it would not produce any 
 additional business. It included the erection of a commodious depot- 
 building— and to digress a moment, let me say that this making railroad 
 companies rich by building depots is an utter fallacy. Take the Grand 
 Central depot here for instance. There has been a great deal of com- 
 ment because the company has been permitted to cut off some parts of 
 streets, it being conveniently assumed that the depot was entirely for 
 cue benefit of the company, and the source of great revenue to it— one 
 of the properties that make its so-called riches. The depot, with the 
 cost of the ground, cost a number of millions of dollars; the an- 
 nual cost of maintaining the building, with the surroundings and the 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 159 
 
 superintendence, amount to a sum which, if capitalized, would represent 
 millions more; for all of which we have the privilege of paying tuxes 
 and insurance, and that is all. We own the property, but the public 
 has the use of it. We have no additional revenue because of it, and 
 we have to pay the particular expenses that such an establishment 
 necessarily involves. 
 
 The improvement I was speaking of involved the bridging and partial 
 obstruction of some street-crossings, and while in an almost similar 
 case for an individual there was little objection to the needed muni- 
 cipal' action, in our case it became necessary to see personally each 
 member of the council, a service which I myself performed, and after 
 all the explanations that could be given, it was with the greatest diffi- 
 culty that consent could be procured, and it was extremely doubtful at 
 one time if it could be procured at all. All this was because it was 
 said to be for the railroad company. And if in a case in which the 
 benefit was so entirely on the other side the chances were so slender, 
 what can be done in other cases can be easily understood. 
 
 The indisposition and even aversion there is in municipalities to do 
 things that are really for their own benefit, if a railroad happens to be 
 incidentally a party to it, is unaccountable. This spirit is what inter- 
 feres so much with arrangements of terminal facilities. There has 
 always been great difficulty in getting approaches to points where 
 depot and freight conveniences would benefit the public. The question 
 is often asked, *' Why don't you build elevators in New York ?" " Why 
 don't you have freight-houses fronting on the water at the foot of such 
 or such a street?" And, by the way, almost every person who asks 
 these questions thinks that he can point out the exact spot where these 
 things should be located. The very minute, however, auy movement is 
 made, the cry of "railroad" is raised, with all its accompanying embar- 
 rassments. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Is there no elevator here now ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. No, sir; at least not of the kind used elsewhere. 
 About a year ago Mr. Vanderbilt put me in charge of some negotiations 
 with a view to building elevators. The embarrassments are. however, 
 very great. Capitalists seem disinclined to take a part in such an 
 enterprise. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. New York capitalists build them all over the West, 
 at Milwaukee, Chicago, &c. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. But you cannot get them to build here. 
 
 The Chairman. Why not? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. It would be difficult to name the reasons. They 
 would perhaps build if they could be guaranteed all the business of 
 certain parties. They do not seem inclined to do as those do who build 
 railroads — take their chances of procuriug business. They want guar- 
 antees in advance from those who control business, as they sometimes 
 think. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. That is, guarantees from the railroads 1 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir ; but it is hardly possible for a railroad to 
 give such guarantees. The consignor or the consignee might not per- 
 mit them to be fulfilled. What is wanted, practically, as I understand 
 it, is that the railroads, by some artificial means of charges or some 
 process of commercial force, should compel this result. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Taking the statement of Mr. Hayes yesterday about 
 the expense of transfer in New York, would not the interest of the 
 parties themselves be a sufficient guarantee that these elevators would 
 be used ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. It would probably be so to a considerable extent, 
 
160 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 but it would not be so certainly under all circumstances. It is the 
 intention, however, of the New York Central and Hudson Eiver Com- 
 pany, in the absence of other arrangements, itself to provide for these 
 wants, if no insurmountable obstacles are thrown in its way. The ap. 
 proaches to elevators or other facilities must necessarily inconvenience 
 some individuals ; and while the general commercial interests of the 
 city says, "Let us have these things by all means," the particular individ- 
 uals directly, and perhaps injuriously, affected, either object or want 
 modihcations of plans that tend to embarrass, and perhaps eventually 
 to defeat the scheme. I would say here, lest I should omit it, that the 
 New York Central is now building at the foot of Thirty-third street, not , 
 exactly an elevator, but a series of " pockets," very much Hke those some- ' 
 times used for coal. They will, when completed, hold nearly 100,000 bush- 
 els of grain. The loaded cars will be run up an incline over the " pock- 
 ets," and the grain dropped in, very much as coal is dropped. The 
 " pockets" can be discharged into vessels coming alongside. They have 
 in the West at small stations " grain-houses," where loaded wagons 
 are hauled up over the cars and grain transferred, and this plan is some- 
 what the same, substituting cars for wagons. 
 
 In view of the comments that are just at this time so freely made 
 about railroads not furnishing elevators and such like accessories to 
 business, it is interesting, very interesting, to consider the points that 
 have heretofore been raised as to their legal power to do such things. 
 
 It will be remembered that the so-called power caused by aggrega- 
 tion of property in the ownership of railroads is, to many, the great 
 thing to be feared, and means are soberly suggested which it is hoped 
 may save the realization of their fears. At the same time, with some- 
 what doubtful consistency, there is a demand made upon the roads 10 
 build structures that, involve the expenditure of much money ; more 
 than any companies, other than large and powerful ones, could com- 
 mand ; and, in fact, to do the very things, the doing of which heretofore 
 has been made the occasion of much of the discussion now going on. 
 
 I shall take occasion further on to say something upon the general 
 question of this power. I have referred to it now only as it bears upon 
 the particular matter under consideration. 
 
 To show how points have been raised against the legal power of rail- 
 roads to manage elevators, let me relate some experience. 
 
 The New York Central road owned a large elevator at Buffalo, 
 situated on Buffalo Creek or Harbor, which received grain coining 
 across the lake. At the time we were running propellers ourselves 
 they discharged into this elevator. The grain that was put in that 
 elevator had not always a designated means of coming east. Sometimes 
 it would come by canal and sometimes by rail. Although when the grain 
 was put in we naturally hoped that it might come east by rail — the 
 elevator being owned as an appendage or accessory to, and primarily 
 for the purpose of getting grain business on, the road — the point was 
 made that, so far as grain was taken away by canal, the railroad com- 
 pany was not legally warranted in operating an elevator. A bill was 
 actually introduced into the New York legislature restricting railroads 
 from owning elevators at all, so as to settle this point definitely. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. It did not pass ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. No, sir ; but we had to take no small pains to pre- 
 vent its becoming a law, and this was not encouraging to us. I have 
 been told, within a week, that there are parties who propose to test the 
 question of whether a railroad company can build elevators here in 
 New York. As land for a site or for approaches would, no doubt, have 
 to be partly procured by condemnation, a disposition to make these 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 161 
 
 tests does not help the enterprise certainly. An adverse decision would 
 give additional occasion for. complaints of the kind already made. 
 These things are very, very embarrassing. It is "You shall not do," 
 and then, " Why do you not do 1 ?" When I think of them, I sometimes 
 call to mind what was said upon another subject, but is fully applicable 
 to this : 
 
 "You shall and you shan't, 
 
 You will and you won't; 
 You'll be damned if you do, 
 
 And be damned if you don't." 
 
 Mr. Sherman. What is the objection to capitalists building those, 
 and you making a contract with them that all the wheat that goes 
 over your road, so far as possible, you give them? They have them on 
 all the terminal roads in Chicago. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. That might be the cause for more complaints of 
 the exercise of the power in controlling business; it might involve an 
 exhaustive contract with one party, and, when uuable to make other 
 similar ones, be made the ground of charges of discrimination. Aside 
 from these considerations, it would depend on what the probabilities 
 were for the future, as to rates, &c. We might find after a time that 
 we were held responsible under the contract for effects caused by an 
 entirely changed condition of affairs, and yet perhaps we could not get 
 out of it. Such a contract would necessarily have to be very strong. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Could you control the freight? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. I spoke of the difficulties attending that a little 
 while ago. The parties would probably want an absolute guarantee that 
 the railroads would put a certain amount of freight in the structures. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. All the grain brought here by vessel comes through 
 your canal ; all that comes through lake vessels does not come in bulk 
 to the individual owner. A man gets not the same wheat, so that it is 
 only that which comes by rail that can come in separate parts. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. We bring some grain clear through to New York 
 by rail, and some we bring by rail to Athens, on the west side of the 
 Hudson, about twenty-eight miles, by the river, this side of Albany, 
 thence by water to New York ; this latter way being, of course, con- 
 fined to the season of navigation. Lots are, however, in all cases kept 
 separate. One of the difficulties, and perhaps the greatest, iu arranging 
 any new plan for this business in New York, is the fact that the system 
 of " grading," so universal elsewhere, has not yet been adopted as a com- 
 mercial practice here. There are many interests that actively oppose it. 
 Much money is invested in works adapted to the existing custom, and, 
 however much the business of a corporate aggregation of individuals is 
 expected to be done on the pro bono publico principle, for that of an 
 aggregation of individuals not incorporated, exemption is claimed. 
 " What's yours is mine, and what's mine is my own." Aside from abso- 
 lutely adverse interests, it is not easy to change established commercial 
 customs. There must be an appreciation of benefit by the change, and 
 this comes only by time. It is not always, either, that one person having 
 a full appreciation of the benefit to be derived from a change is able to 
 convey the same power to his associate. I did not hear Mr. Hayes's 
 remarks on this subject of " grading" grain, but as he is perfectly familiar 
 with all its bearings on transportation matters, they must have thrown 
 much light on it. 
 
 Mr. Hayes being the manager of one of the co-operative lines running 
 over our road, reminds me that when speaking of these lines I referred 
 several times to what I said about them when this committee was. inquir- 
 11 T 
 
162 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 iog into the postal-car matter ; and having now before me a printed copy 
 of my remarks, I will read from it the part relating to these lines: 
 
 The Chairman * * * I should like to ask you whether there are any of 
 those fast-freight lines running over your road or not Say, for instance, the Mar Union 
 line, the Red line, or the Blue line, or however you distinguish tnem. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir; we have a number of them Wo have the Reel Mine 
 the << White " line, and the " Blue" line. We have a line that was cal led the "Green" 
 line, hut it does not amount to much. There is also the International-' line, an 
 the "Merchants' Dispatch Transportation Company. 
 
 The Chairman. Are they owned by the stockholders of your company ? 
 
 Mr Worcester No, sir; they are owned by the company itselt, in connection with 
 other companies. They are not outside organizations, except in form. The respective 
 companies who form a 'line agree to set apart a certain number of their cars to be need 
 exclusively in the line. The ownership of each car remains specific. It does not become 
 an undivided interest. We own absolutely, just as we did before, so many cars, and 
 can withdraw them from the line, providing we break up the arrangement. They are 
 simply put into a common service. Transportation is done iu precisely the same man- 
 ner as if done in common cars in. the old way. The only organization about such a 
 line is that it has an office where the movements of the oar are kept account of and con- 
 trolled, so as to add force and unity to the combination iu transacting business, and in 
 that office certain expenses are paid, such as loss, and damage, and overcharges, and 
 the correction of way-bills, and some details connected therewith are attended to, all 
 being done for the common benefit of all the companies interested. 
 
 The Chairman. Are they run by contract over the road ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. No, sir : The rates are those established by the companies, and are 
 just the same as for business done otherwise. There is nothing special about them, 
 except the appropriation or assignment of .1 company's cars to that especial service iu 
 combination with cars of the other companies forming the line. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. It is the runuing of its own by each company in connection with 
 other companies? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir. The agent who has charge of a line represents all the 
 companies instead of one. If we should let a car go to Chicago, for instance, outside of 
 one of these lines, the roads their might run it in there own trains, as there would-be 
 nobody there to look especially after it. But as the agent of a line is in fact the agent 
 of all the companies forming it, he would see that a car was put back into its regular 
 service, and that it came home again, or that we were paid for the use of it. The whole 
 arrangement is one for efficiency and economy. Time and expense are saved by avoid- 
 ing transfers where one road connects with another. The rates charged the public for 
 transportation have been growing less each year for several years past, owing to the 
 operations of these lines. They are a voluntary arrangement, so far as the roads are 
 concerned, as all arrangements that run the cars of one company over the road of 
 another must necessarily be, for there is no power that I know of that can compel a 
 company to operate beyond its own proper road. 
 
 As exhibiting at once the power of a railroad company, and the en- 
 couragement that is given to create the increased facilities, about which 
 there is so much urgency, look at the new tracks now being laid by the 
 New York Central Company. 
 
 You are no doubt aware that that; company is constructing two addi- 
 tional tracks between Albany and Buffalo, which, when completed, will 
 make a quadruple-tracked line. The magnitude of such a work natu- 
 rally demanded much careful and even anxious thought before the 
 general proposition that it should be undertaken could be agreed upon. 
 Immediately following the settlement of that came one particular ques- 
 tion after another. With the experience that there is a strange and 
 almost universally prevailing disposition to hold railroad companies to 
 the strictest construction of law, every point that could be raised had 
 to be considered and decided. The first question that arose was, 
 whether the company had a right to put down four tracks. The law, 
 speaking of railroad companies, says that they may lay out their road- 
 bed not exceeding six rods wide and may construct their road thereon. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Double or single track, I suppose? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. It does not say about that. That was the peculiarity. 
 Some said a double track road was a complete railroad, and exhausted 
 the power, while others said as many tracks could be laid as the six 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 163 
 
 rods in width would permit. We bad not, however, originally taken 
 tbe full width of six rails in some cases, and the question arose whether, 
 having once exercised our power to take laud, and not having taken tbe 
 maximum amount that the law authorized, we could take again. Did 
 it not mean one exercise of the power ; aud once used, was it not ex- 
 hausted ? These things show bow much carefulness and anxiety 
 there is connected with any new project. It was finally thought 
 there would be no difficulty in the respects I have spoken of, but 
 then came another question. It was considered very desirable to 
 straighten curves at certain points, and possibly to go around some of the 
 cities, where it would be difficult, and perhaps impossible, to run ad- 
 ditional tracts through, and where the local demand was for a divergence. 
 At Schenectady there is a sort of triangle of roads. We ran northwest 
 and southwest, and there was quite a desirable line to connect them. 
 At Syracuse it was absolutely impossible to get additional tracks under 
 tbe. canal and through the city at all. It was thought it might be 
 advantageous to go around instead of through Rochester with the heavy 
 through freight aud various other things of that kind. In view of all 
 the circumstances, and to avoid all risk as to these questions, and, more 
 than all, for tbe dignity of the enterprise — a matter in which the public 
 should have felt as much interest as the company could feel — so that 
 the work might, beyond question, be done under conferred authority 
 instead of by assuming what might be claimed to be doubtful powers, 
 we went to our legislature and asked for permission to construct the 
 two new tracks — permission to expend a large sum of money for a great 
 public improvement — but we did not get it. We have, consequently, 
 been compelled to go on and manage as best we could, and under great 
 disadvantages. We had to organize a new and special company to 
 build around Syracuse. It may be doubtful whether, under existing 
 laws, we shall not be compelled to operate this few miles under a sep- 
 arate organization. The State then has to deal with and keeps its 
 records of another complete railroad, for this link would have to have 
 as much legal railroad in it as if it rau through the entire State. This 
 facilitates the transaction of business with a vengeance. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Was there an objection to the passage of the bill, or 
 was it simply for the want of time ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Every legitimate effort was made to pass it, but 
 it could not be passed by legitimate means. It was not, in the slight- 
 est degree, a question of time. It was introduced early, and the session 
 was unusually loug. I state the exact truth when I say that the bill 
 could not be passed. The most bitter comments were made upon the 
 company, upon the bill, and upon everything connected with it. Oppo- 
 sition was made to it by some on the ground of the additional influence 
 and power it might confer on the company, the dread of which was 
 anxiously expressed. The bill, as at first drawn, might, it was urged, 
 allow an entire line to be constructed. It was said the company might 
 build such a line from New York to Buffalo. That would be a terrible 
 thing, indeed. 
 
 There might, perhaps, be another complete line of railroad commu- 
 nication between those places. If it had been the intention to do that, 
 there was no reason why a new company for the purpose should not 
 have been formed under the general railroad law instead of making the 
 application that was made ; but that consideration did not have any 
 effect, and to prevent the possibility of such a disastrous thing the bill 
 was amended so as to make the points of divergence and convergence 
 not more than twenty miles apart. But the bill did not pass. The de- 
 sire of the managers of the Centra,! to have the new tracks narfc ami 
 
164 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 parcel of their road, as a matter of their own pride, and not less for 
 pride of State enterprise, and to have it made so by express legis 
 lative authority, was very great. It was a remarkable instance of re- 
 spect for and deference to the law-making power, this dignified applica- 
 tion for authority was. The result, however, was not such as to encour- 
 age similar applications hereafter. 
 
 I will take advantage of this occasion to say something about these 
 two additional tracks exclusively for freight. There will be graded 
 this year two hundred miles out of the three hundred between Albany 
 and Buffalo. There will be, we hope, about one hundred and fifty miles 
 of double track laid ready for operation before work ceases this fall. 
 Within one year from the time the project was definitely agreed upon, 
 the money will have been raised, the plans all matured, the engineers'' 
 estimates made, the right of way acquired, the rails and ties procured, 
 contracts made for the grading,' two hundred miles of grading done, and 
 one hundred and fifty miles of the rails laid. It is to be steel ; 65 pounds 
 to the yard, uniformly. 
 
 Mr. Oonexing. And when done are two of these four tracks to be 
 devoted to freight exclusively 1 ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir ; but the new tracks are not necessarily 
 exclusively for freight ; they are sometimes both on one side the old 
 tracks, and sometimes both on the other ; sometimes one is on one side 
 and one is on the other. When the two new tracks are completed the 
 whole system will be re-arranged, so that two tracks of the four that will 
 exist will be for freight and two for passengers. It will not be in every 
 case, however, that either the old two or new two will be used for either 
 kind of business. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Have you the estimate for the whole cost 1 ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. We have made no close estimate. It was decided 
 to do the work, and to do it as economically as possible ; that was all. 
 There were approximate estimates. The probable cost of the gradings 
 was pretty closely ascertained when the contracts were made; the cost 
 of the superstructure is somewhat definite. There are, however, many 
 items of expenses which are unknown, and which will affect the aggre- 
 gate cost very much. They are the surroundings or accessories, and 
 the conveniences we shall put here and there. We shall be compelled 
 to re-arrange buildings, shops, sidings, &c, all of which are left for con- 
 sideration after the track-work is done; and of the cost of these there 
 has been no estimate made. 
 1 Mr. Davis. Can you approximate to the gross amount? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. We shall probably spend on the work some 
 $20,000,000. The profit in saving that will be derived from the present 
 volume of business will not pay the interest on the additional capital 
 involved. It is not at present a speculation, by any means. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do you issue new stock to pay for that? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. We borrow the money on bonds. We have borrowed 
 already £2,000,000 sterling in London. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Taking the increase of business on your road for the 
 last five years, how long will it be before the utmost capacity of the four 
 tracks will be needed 1 
 
 Mr. Worcester. That would be a little difficult to say. The practi- 
 cal capacity of a double-track road exclusively for freight is not yet fully 
 ascertained. The theoretical capacity of such a line could be very easily 
 stated, but the practical capacity depends on things that do not pertaiu 
 entirely to the road itself. The, theoretical capacity of a road might, in 
 a general way, be said to be trains following each other at certain inter- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 165 
 
 # 
 
 vals nniformly during the twenty-four hours. That capacitycould.be 
 very easily computed. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. What is your understanding of that 1 ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. The capacity of a road of that kind would be, I 
 should say, enough to move 10,000,000 tons a year. I mean move 
 and deliver or discharge that tonnage, taking the probable chances of 
 blocks and accumulations. In other words, a road of that kind could 
 be worked efficiently and effectively to that extent, when provided with 
 the proper amount of equipment. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. That would be trains running how often each way ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. About one hundred trains a day of twenty-five 
 cars to a train. 
 • Mr. Conkling. How many cars a day. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Two thousand five hundred cars. This estimate' 
 of tonnage is fouuded on what would be the actual freight in both 
 directions. In round numbers we could send 2,500 cars from New York 
 to Buffalo, and 2,500 cars from Buffalo to New York, but the cars going 
 west could not run full loaded, and so the tonnage would, under any 
 circumstances, fall below what the simple ability to move cars would 
 indicate. 
 
 The sixth subdivision made by the committee has reference to the 
 control of canals by railroad companies, as to which the companies I 
 represent have had no experience. The canals in the State of New 
 York are controlled by the State. 
 
 The seventh subdivision is as to the economy of railroads, to be oper- 
 ated exclusively as freight lines ; and the eighth is the relative econ- 
 omy of fast and slow freight lines, with a view to ascertaining the speed 
 of maximum profits for freight lines. 
 
 When the committee gave notice that information would be asked for 
 from railroad companies, I intended to prepare and present some care- 
 fully prepared statistics, comparative and otherwise, which would have 
 had some considerable bearing upon these questions. And to make them 
 more complete, 1 sent to England over two months ago for some elab- 
 oratcfigures about the railways there. I have been delaying the prepa- 
 ration?' of my own till those from England should come, but I have been 
 disappointed as to their arrival. I shall be glad to prepare and furnish 
 the committee any figures we may have that may convey any useful in- 
 formation. And 1 may at some future time send in statements em- 
 bodying the results of the English statistics. And so, for the present, 
 I will pass by these subdivisions. 
 
 Speaking of the English railways, reminds me to call attention to the 
 spirit with which they are treated by the government of that country. 
 In all matters of negotiation they* are treated as equals — they are not 
 embarrassed by the constructive obligations they are under. Because 
 the government has created the corporation it does not say " This is my 
 child, and I will strangle it if I wish." 
 
 I was speaking a little while ago of the assumption of 10 per cent, as 
 the maximum profit that it was assumed railroads, when prosperous, 
 should be permitted to make, and I hinted at the unfairness of low lim- 
 itations when risks of making no profit were run, unless with such limita- 
 tions there was the idea of a guaranty. Money in England is worth 
 usually from 3 to 4 per cent., here from 7 to 12. And yet the English 
 parliamentary reservation of the right to " revise" the rates of a rail- 
 way company is applicable only when 10 per cent, is exceeded, and 10 
 per cent, there means a good deal. But more than that. I will read 
 from an article upon this subject : 
 
 This clause refers to a right to revise the tariff, of charges on all roads which are earn- 
 
166 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 ing more than 10 per cent, net on their subscribed and paid-up capital. Such a right is 
 secured to the government, and is only to be exercised after three months' notice, on the 
 condition that the government shall guarantee the company -whose rates are so revised 
 the net profit of 10 per cent, a year. To secure the company against any abuse of this 
 governmental privilege, it is also provided under this section that "such revised scale 
 shall not be again revised, otherwise than with the consent of the company, for the 
 period of twenty-one years." 
 
 Against this I will read the closing paragraph of an article in one of 
 the most widely-circulated journals published in this city : 
 
 When the Central was borrowing money to pay 3 per cent, half-yearly, it seemed 
 mean to tax it; but now, with a revenue of twenty-five million, Aristides himself 
 might vote to confiscate. Idle to talk about measures being unconstitutional. Con- 
 stitutions can be changed as well as laws, and when the day comes for the spoliation 
 of the railways, neither vested rights nor common honesty are likely to obtain a 
 hearing. 
 
 Of the logic of these paragraphs I will say nothing. You can judge 
 of it. I beg, however, to call your especial attention to the spirit which 
 pervades them. 
 
 The ninth subdivision is facts in relation to terminal charges, and upon 
 this I shall be brief. 
 
 The expenses that attend the handling of property at a terminus or 
 eutrtyiot, which are in some cases made a charge upon the property, is 
 something that the railroads have nothing to do with. The so-called 
 terminal charges of railroads are not made the basis for additional 
 rates on the property, they are simply considerations by which a through 
 rate, already fixed upon the principles I have explained to you, may be 
 divided between the respective parties in a line in a manner somewhat 
 different from a prorating founded exclusively upon respective lengths 
 of road. If a barrel of flour from Chicago to New York were, say, SO 
 cents, and that amount was to be divided in a certain ratio, the ques- 
 tion would be whether there was any element that could constitute a fair 
 claim on the part of one company to receive more than it otherwise 
 would with a corresponding reduction in the amount the other roads in 
 the line should receive. Terminal charges in railroading are simply 
 claims for different bases of division that one road makes against another. 
 These are adjusted sometimes by allowing what is called " constructive 
 mileage." Suppose a line of, say, a hundred miles long has an undue 
 proportion of the whole work to do, it might be permitted to call the 
 length one hundred' and ten or one hundred and fifteen miles as 
 against the actual length of the others. 
 
 Where anyroad has an important delivering point, involving a large 
 outlay, permanent and for conducting, when its length is but a small 
 part of a through line, this adjustment in its favor is simply a process 
 by which the other roads contribute to the expense of that point, that 
 point being of as much importance to the other roads in the line as it 
 is to the particular road that happens to end at or reach it. And these 
 things do not affect at all the making of the rates. 
 
 If the opportunity had been afforded to prepare the statements of 
 which I spoke a few minutes ago, they would have contained many 
 facts that would have borne upon the inquiries suggested in the tenth, 
 eleventh, and twelfth subdivisions. Most of the information upon them 
 must necessarily be compilations or statistical matter. Although in the 
 eleventh there is room for the exercise of judgment founded upon large 
 practical experience in railroad management, still that would be the 
 most intelligently exhibited by many /and elaborate calculations and 
 computations. A large item of expenses, for instance, is the fuel; and 
 the relative economy of wood and coal, and of different kinds of coal, 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 167 
 
 having reference to nearness of location to some one kind, would, 
 perhaps, be at once interesting and instructive: 
 Mr. Davis. What coal do you use generally ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. On the Hudson River line we use the Cumberland 
 coal. On the middle and western parts of the line we use tbe Bloss 
 coal, the Erie as we call it, and bituminous coal from various other 
 places. It is all of the general nature of the Cumberland and Western 
 Pennsylvania, bituminous, or rather semi-bituininous coal., 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Are all your locomotives coal burners. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. They are almost all. We do not renew wood-burn- 
 ers as they get used up, but we have a few left still. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. I should like fully to understand you about the capi- 
 tal in your road. We do not ca're how rich you are. We simply want 
 to get at the elements of the cost of roads. We care nothing about 
 your particular case, and have no desire to meddle in your matters at 
 all, but simply to get the facts. You made a statement of the cost of 
 the road and equipment at $03,000,000. Is that the original cost of the 
 road, or is it the amount at which the roads were estimated at the time 
 of the consolidation J ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. That represents something less than the actual cost 
 of the roads, and not an estimated one. It is the original cost of the 
 line when first opened, with the cost of the additions and extensions as 
 they were made. There were many items paid oat of earnings that 
 were not included in the cost of the road, but were treated as repairs 
 and the expenditure called expenses. The cost of the various roads 
 in money actually spent on them down to the first consolidation, in 1853, 
 was very considerably in excess of 'the aggregate capital stock and 
 debt of the different companies at that time. The New York Central 
 Company that was then formed assumed the aggregate capital stock 
 and debt of the various companies that consolidated, and the cost of 
 the road was reduced on the books of the new company to the amount 
 of such aggregate, 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Were not some of the roads estimated in the con- 
 solidation at more than the cost of the stock "I 
 
 Mi-. Worcester. There was not any capital stock issued for that 
 purpose. There was an obligation called debt certificates, which bore 
 6 per cent, interest. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Was that the case with the Troy and Schenectady 
 road, for example f 
 
 Mr. Worcester. No, sir. That road paid in $25 per share on its 
 stock to entitle it to receive a similar amount in the new company. 
 
 (To Mr. Sherman.) These debt certificates were issued to adjust the 
 value of one road as compared with another. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Then let us go a little further. In 1853 the cost of 
 road and equipment included the amount of the premium bonds or debt 
 certificates % 
 
 Mr. Worcester. No, sir ; those certificates never were and are not 
 now included in the items of the cost of the road, as shown on our books 
 or in any published figures. The amount of those certificates was sim- 
 ply a premium to be paid by the company when or before the certificates 
 matured, but it was not added to the cost of the road at all, and has 
 had nothing to do with it. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. It was not included in the capital stock. Was it in- 
 cluded in the cost of the road! 
 
 Mr. Worcester. No, sir ; it was included in neither. There was no 
 property representation on the books or in the accounts of the company 
 
168 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 for those certificates. Their payment was and is contingent on the rev- 
 enue of the road. ,, , , 
 
 Mr. Sherman. How was the cost of the road made up-the actual 
 amount paid to contractors for building? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. It was made up of the actual money expended on 
 the road at first ; but when the capital stock and the funded debt of the 
 several companies that made the new company were put together, they 
 amounted to less than had been expended on the road by nearly $2,000,000, 
 which was an amount from revenue that the old companies had, between 
 them all, spent on their roads without its being represented in their 
 capital stock and funded debt, and then the cost of road was adjusted 
 by reduction to the amount, of the capital stock and debt. We then issued 
 these debt certificates, which are contingent promises to pay out of 
 revenue, but they were not, and have never been, added to or treated as 
 part of the cost of the road on oar books or in any of our figures. The 
 road had actually cost some $2,000,000 more than we paid for it in 
 stock and assumed debt in 1853. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. In 1803 the statement of cost of road and equipment 
 represented the actual cost of the road except $2,000,000 ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. It represented the actual cost of the road excepting 
 the $2,000,000 I spoke of, and excepting also, an amount, which I can- 
 not now state exactly, that we had expended on the property from reve- 
 nue between 1853 and 1863, but had not charged as part of its value or 
 cost. This was, in fact, improvements, enlargements or additions charged 
 to expenses. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. The amount of the funded debt in 1863 was $22,718,398, 
 and the combined debt and stock of the company was then about 
 $50,000,000, say ; now, was any stock sold for money after this time to 
 be expended on the road 1 
 
 Mr. Worcester. There was never any stock sold directly for money 
 after 1853 or 1854 ; but this was done, we had issued convertible bonds 
 and had spent the money derived from their- sale on the roads. Some of 
 these were converted, and of course increased the capital stock. This 
 was Practically selling capital stock for money, but with an intermedi- 
 ate process of issuing oonus. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. To what extent was that done? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. 1 cannot give you the exact amount without refer- 
 ring to our books. Other increases of capital stock were made in this 
 way.' We consolidated some other roads with ours before 1869. We 
 took some into our system, taking a surrender of their capital stock and 
 giving our own. Odc case was that of the "Athens" road, as it is 
 called; we gave $2,000,000 of our capital stock for the same amount of 
 theirs. Their road became our road, and its cost then entered into the 
 cost of ours. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Up to what time had these consolidations taken place? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. The consolidation of the Athens road was made 
 in 1867. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. What I should like to know is, what portion of your 
 stock and certificates has been sold for money and applied to construc- 
 tion. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. To answer in a general way, all the stock "and 
 bonds after 1853. There never was a dollar of stock or bonds issued or 
 sold except for money spent on the road. I have already explained as 
 to the increases by consolidation, which do not affect the absolute correct- 
 ness of this answer. I speak now of the time from the first consolida- 
 tion, in 1853, down to the last consolidation, in 1869. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. How comes it that your stock account increased from 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 169 
 
 $28,000,000, in 16'63, to $89,000,000, in 1873, unless you sold it for the 
 purpose of building or buying roads? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. I cannot say how the table from which you take 
 these figures is made up. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. The general statement is, that your stock has been in- 
 creased without any money coming to the company — an increase by 
 what might be called watering or stock dividends? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. The capital stock was made a new capital stock at 
 the consolidation of the Central and Hudson Eiver, in 1869. Aside 
 from that formation of a new company, with a new capital, there was no 
 stock, no debt, no anything of the kind that did not represent money 
 actually spent on the road. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Now, how much actual capital stock had been issued 
 at the very time that new basis of stock was agreed upon ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. The aggregate of the two companies was $15,000,000 
 of stoek, s and 80 per cent, additional on the Central, amounting to 
 §23,000,000, for interest certificates issued in 1868. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. The actual amount of the aggregate stock of the two 
 roads in 1869 was $45,000,000, the Hudson Eiver and the New York 
 Central ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir; the existing capital stock. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. And then that stock was increased by 80 per cent, on 
 the New York Central? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. The interest certificates had been before. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Was their amount in that $45,000,000 ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. No, sir; that issue was additional, but it was done 
 before 3869 ; it was done in 1868. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Then in 1869 the aggregate stock of the two compa- 
 nies was $45,000,000, and this new standard was made, as you say, upon 
 that basis you spoke of? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir ; it was in round numbers $45,000,000 and 
 823,000,000 of the interest certificates, making au aggregate of 
 $68,000,000. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Then you adopted the standard of $90,000,000 ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir; but that included, in addition to the items 
 already spoken of, which were those of the. New York Central Eoad 
 alone, $16,000,000, which was the amount of the capital stock of the 
 Hudson Eiver Eoad." 
 
 # # # • * # # # 
 
 Mr. Worcester. I should like now to say something about the sub- 
 ject of rail transportation generally, concerning which there is a vast 
 amount of misapprehension. 
 
 It is said, and in a way that implies what is wrong to a greater or less 
 extent, that just as soon as winter comes on and -navigation is closed 
 railroads put up their rates. On this poiut especially the misapprehen- 
 sion of which I spoke is very great. Why do not the water lines keep 
 their communication open all winter ? They say they cannot do it. To 
 say, however, that water colnmunication cannot be kept open is simply 
 saying that something is impossible. Impossibilities — absolute ones — 
 are very few now-a-days. It may be safer to say that it would be diffi- 
 cult, very difficult, and expensive. It may be said, also, that a railroad 
 cannot be run in winter — certainly not without great sacrifices. But 
 the railroad is expected to keep its communication open in winter under 
 all circurastauces. If any railroad company should fold its hands and 
 say that it could not keep its line open, I do not know what would be 
 said. But with a water-craft, the minute ice skims over the water " nav- 
 igation is closed," and it stops. In the spring, when the ice is gone, by 
 
170 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 natural means, " navigation is open," and between these times there 
 seems to be no responsibility for action. 
 
 Now, I beg to call attention to the fact that while the cost oi keeping 
 a railroad open in winter is very great indeed, the effects of winter ser- 
 vice extend much beyond what appears on the surface. The expense 
 directly connected with winter operating is not really the great expense. 
 Preparing for winter service, and recovering from its effects, are the 
 great features of summer labor. As soon as winter has gone, and spring 
 begins to come on, when the frost commences to come out of the ground, 
 the work of repairing damages begins. Much the larger part of summer 
 and fall work— the expense of adjustment and alignment of track and 
 the repairs of roadways — are due to the effects of winter. To speak 
 within bounds, one-half the summer expenditures are caused by the 
 effects of winter or the winter service. The whole summer is spent in 
 preparing for the battle of winter. The common inquiry among rail- 
 road managers in the fall is, " How are we prepared for < going into' the 
 winter? " the idea being just that of " going into" a fight ; and when 
 winter comes on, the breaking, smashing, and disarranging of road and 
 rolling-stock begins. The point aimed at during the summer is to get 
 up to the very highest condition of service the roadway, motive-power, 
 and rolling-stock, and when these have gone through the winter they come 
 out in the spring just in a condition to commence repairing again, and so 
 on each year. The entire cost of the renewal of rails on railroads appears 
 in the expenses of the summer months. There is not a rail laid in winter, 
 except in a case of absolute necessity, such as where one breaks, and 
 it must be borne in mind that where a water line takes business away 
 from a rail line in summer, the cars that the rail line is expected to have 
 ready as soon as the water line chooses to say " Navigation is closed," 
 " We stop," and shippers rush to the rail, lie idle all the summer. It 
 is not generally understood, but it is a fact, nevertheless, that cars and 
 engines deteriorate just as fast when they stand still as when they are 
 in service. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. You mean now deterioration as distinguished from 
 friction * 
 
 Mr. Worcester. I mean rather more than that. I mean that they 
 would become useless and dilapidated fully as fast. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. That is, they grow old as fast % 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Yes, sir; even counting in the chances of breakage 
 in service. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do you include the wheels in that estimate? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Not the wheels considered separately ; but I am 
 speaking of the car considered as a whole. The "life," as it is called, 
 of a caj is, for all practical railroad purposes, just as long when in active 
 railroad service, even with the accidents attending it, as when standing 
 still. The cost of hauling, and it alone, is special and incidental to the 
 movement. This rule does not apply quite so broadly to engines as iS 
 does to cars. As to cars, it is strictly true. The Hudson Eiver division 
 of our road has had very large experience on this point, because of the 
 effect of the Budson River, which, of all water communications, is, per- 
 haps, the best and most efficiently worked. When people sometimes 
 make comparisons of summer and winter rates, and so freely express 
 opinions as to the relation such rates should bear to each other, they 
 are usually perfectly unaware of the conditions I have stated, and 
 equally so of the fact that summer rates can be made lower than they 
 otherwise would or could be, because the cars that have to be held in 
 reserve for the service of winter (for every one expects cars to be plen- 
 tiful iust as soon as thev find it convenient to transfer business from the 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 171 
 
 water lines) are spoiling just as fast as if used, and that any rate that 
 pays simply the haulage is at least protective. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. How does the volume of your business compare in 
 summer aud winter ! 
 
 Mr. Worcester. In winter it is largest. The ordinary winter months 
 are larger than summer mouths. Between Albany and New York 
 freight that leaves the former place on a steamboat in the evening 
 arrives at the latter in the morning, so that practically there is no gain 
 in time by rail, aud this makes the river between those places a favorite 
 means of shipping during the summer. When, however, the ice inter- 
 feres it is sometimes claimed that the road should then take the business 
 as cheap as when cars were lying idle in summer. This would be an 
 absolute impossibility. There never was a case, however, in which any- 
 body who was willing to make a contract with the railroad to ship by 
 it the year round could not have a rate very nearly, if not absolutely, 
 the same for winter as for summer. We are always ready to make such 
 contracts ; but to be patronized only when other communications are 
 closed, and when the expenses, direct and indirect, are of the kind I 
 have stated, and then to have rates such as are frequently demanded, is 
 the very climax, of misunderstanding. It may be proper, perhaps, to 
 state here that as a rule the winter rates on our whole road are approx- 
 imately 15 per cent, higher than those of the summer. Those on the 
 Hudson River division, owing to the peculiar circumstances to which I 
 have alluded, are somewhat more. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Are you confining yourself down to your own line or 
 to through rates f 
 
 .' Mr. Worcester. I am speaking of the through rate, or of our pro- 
 portion of the through rate. Our local rates are always founded upon 
 our proportion of the through rate. 
 
 I showed you a little while ago a statement showiug the diminution 
 in rates on the Central from 3.26 per ton per mile, in 1885, to 1.49 in 
 1871— the latter year being less than one-half of the former — aud 
 1 will now read to you a part of the annual report of the Lake Shore 
 and Michigan Southern Road for the last year, showing how a similar 
 diminution has been going on on that line, aud the effect thereof: 
 
 It is a fact worthy of note that rates have of late years tended downward so rapidly 
 that the rate per ton per mile in 1872 is but little more than half the rate of 1868. 
 
 The ascertained results are as follows ; 
 
 1868 2 43-100 cents per ton per mile. 
 
 1S69 ' 2 34-100 cents per ton per mile. 
 
 1870 1 50-100 cents per ton per mile. 
 
 1871 1 39-100 cents per ton per mile. 
 
 18/2 1 37-100 cents per ton per mile. 
 
 Had we received the rate of 1868 (two and forty-three one-hundredths cents per ton 
 per mile) on the tonnage of :1872, the earnings from freight would have been 
 $22,133,781, instead of $12,613,499, yielding — instead of barely 8 per cent, upon the 
 stock — 28 per cent. 
 
 These figures disprove the assertion, so frequently made, that railroad companies 
 make extortionate rates for their own beuefit and against the public interest ; and they 
 establish the fact that the policy of this company has been to reduce the rates as 
 rapidly as could be done consistently with the maintenance of the property in good 
 "ondition. 
 
 The roads are doing a- larger business at reduced rates, with about the 
 same resulting profit. As fast as business increases rates diminish, so 
 that the net result is very substantially the same. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Into how many classes do you divide your freight ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. We divide freight going west into four numbered 
 classes, and one called " special," and coming east into four regular 
 classes, and flour as a separate class. 
 
172 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What is your first-class rate to Buffalo now ? 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Our first-class local rate to Buffalo is 17 cents. The 
 rate to Chicago ou "special" (which is cheaper than fourth-cla - ss) is 
 now 25 cents, and of this our proportion is about 12. There are frac- 
 tional variations between the north and south shore of Lake Erie lines, 
 but 12 cents is about our average proportion of rate to-day. 
 
 Adjourned. 
 
 Mr. Worcester. Mr. Chairman, 1 occupied the timeof the committee 
 pretty largely yesterday, but any one of the sub-divisions of this matter 
 is of importance enough to consume as much time as I used yesterday 
 on all of them. I had a few points that I did not speak on as fully as 
 I desired to yesterday, which I have noted for the purpose of speaking 
 on this morning, but they would take much more than the twenty min- 
 utes which the committee can now give. As permission has been given 
 to add in writing anything further that I might otherwise say, I will, 
 perhaps, avail myself of that permission, and will not occupy more than 
 the time allotted. 
 
 I stated yesterday the diminution in rates that had taken place on the 
 New York Central road from 18(35 to 1872, and also on the Lake Shore 
 and Michigan Southern, and, if you remember, the diminution was about 
 the same on each road. I intended to take in the Michigan Central for 
 another. Those three illustrate fairly the process that is going on over 
 the whole railroad system. 
 
 There is an article published in The Nation of this week which presents 
 the affairs of this road in a very clear manner. The writer says he is 
 not au employe of any railroad, and owns no stock, &c., but as the fig- 
 ures given are correct, I will avail myself of his labor, and, if there be no 
 objection, [ will read it. Please remember that this company found 
 itself unable to pay a dividend at the last regular period. 
 
 PROGRESSIVE DECLINE IN RAILROAD FREIGHTS. 
 
 To the Editor of The Nation : 
 
 Sir : Your correspondent, " New Englander," makes it very clear that the farmers, 
 in their controversy -with the railroads, must use more conclusive arguments than the 
 stale charge of " watered stocks." It is quite probable, as your correspondent sup- 
 poses, that the so-called watered-stock roads carry farm produce at as low rates as 
 make the tariff of transportation lines whose stock and bonds represent actual cash 
 payment for their full amount. 
 
 The practical question is. What are reasonable charges per ton per mile? Further, bow 
 do these charges compare with those of former years, when farmers had not made the 
 discovery that they were robbed by the railroads ? Comparatively, are they moderate 
 or excessive? And do our railroads now pay their stock and -bond holders au exorbi- 
 tant profit? On these points I have just found some most instructive reading in the 
 recent report of the Michigan Central Railroad. This road is one of the leading arte- 
 ries to and from the West. At Chicago it has close connections with those powerful 
 corporations, the Illinois Central and Chicago, Burlington and Quincy roads, and at 
 the East it connects with the Great Western of Canada, leading to the New York Cen- 
 tral at Suspension Bridge. Its stock and bonds are largely owned, and the road is 
 wholly controlled, by such " bloated bondholders " as theThayers, Forbeses, aud Hunne- 
 wells, of Boston, and Moses Taylor and John Jacob Astor, of this city, aud the road has 
 probably been diluted by the watering process as little as any Eastern or Western 
 road. In construction, equipment, and in the talent of its executive and subordinate 
 officers, it is in every respect a first-class road. The stock of this company during the 
 ten or twelve years previous to' the last has ranged from 110 to 125, and, until a year 
 past, has uniformly paid 10 per cent, annual dividends ; and any merchant, manufac: 
 turer, or artisan may be challenged in vain to assert that such a return for a precarious 
 investment was unreasonable. Now, this powerful company has paid nothing in cash 
 to its stockholders for more than twelve months, its entire earnings having been ex- 
 pended on the road. Further, under the pressure of the absolute requirements of the 
 road for new rails, double-track equipment, &c, more than five millions of dollars 
 have, during the past year, been raised by the sale of bonds, and expended to keep the 
 road up to the highest point of efficiency for its future service, for which end the 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 173 
 
 directors (who are the largest stockholders) consider that stockholders should forego 
 without murmuring their present reduced profits. The result of passing dividends and 
 further bonding of the road has depreciated the stock to the neighborhood of 90. It is 
 quite probable that the indignant farmers who had accumulated a few earnings before 
 the robbery began of what they had not accumulated, may have opportunity to invest 
 in this first-class railroad at even a less price than 90 before good dividends are resumed. 
 What has caused these meager earnings and this depreciation of stock, and afforded 
 clamorous farmers and others opportunity to buy good railroad stocks at a bargain ? 
 Let one of the ablest men of the West tell us. The president of the Micbigan Central 
 Eoad writes from Detroit in Juno last in an apologetic tone, giving as the cause of 
 their disappointment, among other reasons, the following : 
 
 "Allusion has been made in the reports of this company for two or three years past to 
 the rapid construction of railroads which might affect its local traffic by competition 
 at its local points. The effect of the intense competition for through business is prob- 
 ably understood by all stockholders. At Kalamazoo the road is crossed by a branch of 
 the Pennsylvania system of roads running far north into the State ; also by a branch 
 of the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern to Grand Rapids. At Battle Creek it is 
 intersected by the Peninsular Road, connecting with the Pittsburgh and Fort Wayne, 
 and also with the Detroit, LansiDg and Lake Michigan at Lansing. At Albion and 
 at Jackson it is intersected or reached by two other branches of the Lake Shore and 
 Michigan Southern Road. At Wayne it is crossed by the Flint and Pere Marquette. 
 At all the important points on the main line, and at several points on the other divis- 
 ion lines, full competition is established, and substantially the rates at all local points are 
 an fully fixed by competition «« are the through rates. The result has been everywhere a re- 
 duction of rates, and, for the information of stockholders, we place before them the 
 earnings from freight, both local and through, for the years running from 1865 to 187:!, 
 inclusive of both years, stating the number of tons carried in each year, and the num- 
 ber of tons carried one mile in each year, and the gross earnings therefrom, and the 
 rate of freight per ton per mile which has ruled each year : 
 
 
 Tons of freight 
 moved. 
 
 Tons moved one 
 mile. 
 
 Freight earn- 
 ings. 
 
 Earnings per 
 ton per mile. 
 
 1865 
 
 485, 275 
 
 533, 451 
 
 578, 177 
 
 638, 5S6 
 
 802, 835 
 
 823, 770 
 
 1,105,875 
 
 1,238,313 
 
 1,416,792 
 
 72, 937, 319 
 84,897,713 
 91,950,418 
 101,264,251 
 131,827,774 
 132, 903, 174 
 190, 606, 687 
 216,730,727 
 246, 078, 512 
 
 $2, 233, 529 47 
 2,208,591 82 
 2, 285, 521 69 
 'J, 480, 974 16 
 2, 775, 200 48 
 
 2, 634, 438 87 
 3, 072, 557 58 
 
 3, 379, 625 54 
 3,852,933 41 
 
 Cents. 
 
 3.06 
 
 1866 
 
 
 J867 , 
 
 2 49 
 
 1868---. 
 
 2.45 
 
 
 
 1870 
 
 
 1671 
 
 
 1872 
 
 
 1873 
 
 
 
 
 " It will be noticed how gradually but certainly rates have been sinking from 3-nju 
 per ton per mile, in 1865, to 1-rVfr in 1872. with slight increase in 1873. It follows that 
 we are doing all freight business, including local as well as through, on an average, at 
 wry nearly half what the rates were eight years ago. To illustrate the effect of this, take 
 the year 1868 as an example. This is only five years ago, and then the rates had de- 
 clined from 3xJ7u per ton per mile in 1865 to %$$ in that year. 
 
 " The gross earnings from freight in that year were §'2,480,974. ■ In that year the sur- 
 plus to be divided among stockholders, after paying expenses and interest, was $944,328. 
 
 " Now, had the company been compelled to do that business that year at the rates 
 of last year, viz, l-ftfe- per ton per mile, the gross receipts from freights would have 
 been §1*579,722, instead of §2,480,974, and the difference would have been $901,251, 
 which is very nearly the total surplus of that year credited to income account. If we had also 
 been compelled to do the through passenger business of that year at present rates, 
 which is about four-fifths of the then rate, there would have been a deficit in earnings 
 even to pay interest on the then debt of the company. 
 
 " Now, reverse the case, and take the business of 1872. The freight earnings of that 
 year were $3,379,625, with the rate per ton per mile of l-fw- Had we been able to 
 realize the sum of 2-^%- per ton per mile, the rate of 1868, the earnings from that busi- 
 ness would have been $5,310,123, or $1,930,497 more than was realized at present rates. 
 
 "On the business of the present year, which is a. large increase over that of last 
 year, the difference is still more striking. In the last year the gross earnings from 
 freight were §3,852,933.41. The rate per ton per mile was 1-nfV At the same rate as 
 in 1868, the earnings would have been $6,028,923.54, which is §2,175,990.13 more than 
 was actually realized. That amount has been saved to the producer in a single year by the 
 competition which, has sprung up only within the last five years. The only comfort there is 
 in it to railway managers is in the fact that the rate per mile was not reduced during 
 the last year — indicating that competition for the present has done its worst. In fact, 
 it is difficult to conceive that business can be done cheaper with any reasonably ade- 
 quate profit to the railroad companies." 
 
174 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Assuming that the experience of the Michigan Central as regards competition, for 
 freights is representative in a large measure, and that the above statements and tables 
 are trustworthy, directors and stockholders must look elsewhere for cheerful summer 
 readiilg, or be philosophical under a double misery— the loss of dividends and the vio- 
 lent abuse of gentlemen engaged in an occupation which Washington said was "the 
 noblest employment of mankind." 
 
 • The writer is in the employ of no railroad, and neither himself nor family has a 
 present or prospective interest in any railroad stock or bonds ; but in this controversy 
 he is of opinion that the item of facts, which Lord Bacon and the late Mr. Gradgrind 
 prized so highly, ought to weigh against mere theories of railroad profits or railroad 
 despotism. 
 
 A question was asked me yesterday by the Senator from Ohio, (Mr. 
 Sherman,) that I did not answer then as fully as I would have liked to, 
 and I will say something about it now. It was concerning so-called dis- 
 crimination, and he gave an example that he thought illustrated it. 
 The case he presented was one of au agreement to make a reduction 
 where a certain fixed large quantity was carried. The general princi- 
 ples of wholesale as distinguished from retail trade, apply to all such 
 cases, without considering the peculiar surroundings of the particular 
 case. A large quantity of business can always be done at a cheaper 
 price than a small, and especially if the large amount be assured. 
 These special arrangements are always dependent on the contingency of 
 the large amount being done. " If you ship so much during the year, 
 we will make ihe rate so much." If the shipper does not, by his indus- 
 try or enterprise, develop or procure that amount of business, he does 
 not get the benefit of the arrangement. These arrangements are simply 
 stimuli for enterprise. Their effect is always to develope business, and 
 to do it upon the most strictly legitimate principles. How can such an 
 arrangement be unjust or unfair to other dealers (which was apparently 
 assumed in the case the Senator spoke of, and about which he asked 
 me) when such other dealers may make the same bargain exactly ? It 
 is not discriminating against them. They can, if they choose, have the 
 same inducement. Any man offering to ship 3,000,000 feet of lumber 
 could, in all the cases I have ever known, have made the same bargain 
 as did the man the Senator alluded to. I do not want to make any re- 
 flections, but the inconsistency involved in the implied criticism iu this 
 case is extraordinary. " Cheap transportation " is the cry. Here is a 
 case of cheap transportation — a legitimate case for cheapness — and yet 
 yet there is an ipso facto argument made against the railroads. 
 
 I said, when I commenced yesterday, that this whole subject naturally 
 divided itself into two parts, facilities and rates. Now, facilities are one 
 thing and rates are another, and the two are not only not necessarily 
 connected, but are quite the contrary. The cry for both, however, 
 comes from the same parties. They want at the same time more facility 
 and lower rates. There might be facilities to carry double the quantity 
 that there is, and yet rates might be such that even then property 
 would not move. The market-price of the commodity might not war- 
 rant the movement. There is a point somewhere at which property can- 
 not move without consuming its own value. The difficulty in that re- 
 spect would be remedied equally well by higher prices for products, but 
 then the laws, the inevitable laws, of supply and demand coineiu. There 
 is one thing that underlies this whole subject. The supply of certain 
 products is getting to be in excess of the demand, not alone from the 
 production, but from the facility already existing by which such pro- 
 ducts can reach a market. This ability of an enlarged production to 
 reach market has been caused mainly by the steady diminution of rates 
 of which I have spoken, and eventually it must reach a point where it 
 cannot be carried further. That point is when the rates are reduced to 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 175 
 
 a minimum, and production cannot be made at a price that such rates 
 will warrant it in moving. 
 
 I saw an article the other day containing an elaborate statement 
 with regard to the availability for markets of the various productions 
 of almost the whole world. It was very interesting and very worthy of 
 consideration in connection with this subject. I am sorry I have not- 
 got it with me, but quite probably some members of the committee may 
 have read it, aud if they have I am sure they will comprehend the force 
 of its statements. 
 
 Facilities are insufficient and rates are too high, it is claimed. If 
 rates are so high and produce so much sure profit, how does it happen 
 that parties who want additional facilities do not themselves go into 
 enterprises that will give them such facilities and the alleged profit as 
 well? They say they cannot build railroads. Why not? Have they not 
 the authority ? Look at the general laws of, I may say, every State. 
 Have they not the means'? Why, the meeting lately,ealled of simply 
 the Eew York men that were interested in cheap transportation 
 claimed by its advertisement to represent $500,000,000 of capital and 
 85,000,000,000 of annual business ! What lacks in authority or means? 
 
 There was capital enough represented at that meeting to build all 
 the additional railroads it is claimed we need ; and if the profits are so 
 large and so sure, what could be a better investment? The general po- 
 sition of the whole matter is, that the producer wants a high price, and 
 the consumer wants a low price. The amount of production is large, 
 and by means of existing facilities is extensively available. Prices fall 
 in consequence, and although this favors the consumer, he wants a still 
 lower price. Both these interests join in the cry against the railroads, 
 which are the medium of communication between them, and demand 
 that they must be held responsible, and that they alone must bridge 
 over the chasm. Even commercial factors, who, with charges and com- 
 missions, stand between producer and consumer, add to the cry — aud 
 not in a single instance do they propose to abate in the smallest degree 
 the profit they derive ; that profit, upon the lowest computation on the 
 amount of business claimed in the call I have spoken of, would make 
 railroad profit blush. 
 
 That dining a quarter of a century there should not have arisen some 
 railroad manager who was somethiug more than an extortioner, seems 
 very strange. The men who manarge railroads have, and have had, the 
 reputation of being shrewd business men, and any one knows that ex- 
 tortion is not a shrewd business quality. That quality consists in a full 
 appreciation of meum and tuttm, aud while these men have had that 
 full appreciation in all other branches of business, is it to be supposed 
 that they would lose it as soon as they entered into railroading ? Most 
 of the railroads have changed in their control a number of times during 
 the period I have mentioned, and it would certainly seem as if among 
 the numerous managers there would have been found some honest ones 
 —especially when their individual character for honesty was well es- 
 tablished. Such men would not change their characters or part with 
 their sound judgment immediately they came into railroading. I have 
 had a very intimate acquaintance with a large number of the leading 
 railroad men during the time I have spoken of; they have been men in 
 the highest sense of the word, actuated by principles of business equity 
 far beyond the standard usually set up, and in now closing what I have 
 endeavored to make explanatory upon some of the points connected 
 with a great common interest, I cannot refrain from a protest against 
 the unwarranted denunciation of them that has lately been so preva- 
 lent. 
 
176 TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Montreal, September 16, 1873. 
 
 The committee met to hear statements of Montreal merchants. 
 
 Present : The members of the committee, and Messrs. Thomas Eim- 
 mer, M. P. Ryan, M. P., John McLennan, Alexander Mitchell, William 
 Darling, Wm. J. Patterson, aud Hugh McLennan, merchants and im- 
 porters, of Montreal. 
 
 The Chaikman. Gentlemen : Without any preliminary statement I 
 will say that we are in search of information upon the question of trans- 
 portation in the grain-trade, &c, and all things appertaining to the 
 subject, of which, perhaps, you are advised. 1 do not know upon whom 
 to call for certain line of statements ; and thought, perhaps, we might as 
 well conduct this matter in a conversational way, and I will ask Mr. Eim- 
 mer, whom I know to be well advised upon the grain-trade, to state the 
 difference in the manner of conducting that trade in the Dominion and 
 iu the United States, if there be a difference, as to the purchase and 
 shipment thereof. 
 
 Mr. Thomas Rimmek, ex-president of the Board of Trade of Mont- 
 real. Mr. Chairman : 1 am utterly unable to throw any light upon the 
 particular method of transportation in the United States^ but I think I 
 can explain the course we pursue in our business here. My firm is en- 
 gaged in the grain-trade, chiefly in the export of American-grown grain 
 to Great Britain. 
 
 I suppose, since the opening of navigation, we have handled about a 
 million and a half of bushels of American produce, and sent it through 
 the St. Lawrence to Europe. 
 
 We never get any consignment, and never have had, from the West, 
 and of the twelve million bushels coming down here and exported to 
 Europe, I believe the whole is paid for in cash before it leaves the 
 American ports. 'A consignment business does not come in this direc- 
 tion at all. 
 
 If it suited us to send the wheat from Toledo or Chicago to New York 
 we should do so. We think it much better to bring it in this direction ; 
 we think it has some advantages. We find an immense competition, of 
 course, from New York, and I may say that in my own business of a 
 million and half bushels about 90 per cent, is done on English orders. 
 Tea per cent, is done on other accounts, consigned to Great Britain. 
 
 In addition to the competition we experience from New York we have 
 a very keen competition from the east of Europe on the order business, 
 and I was struck by a remark of Senator Sherman that America will 
 be by-and-by the great granary for the feeding of Europe. We do not 
 find that it is so. Russia is gaining ground as a food-producing place 
 for Europe. Russia in an average of years lately has exported more 
 wheat and grain than the United States ; and the quality of the wheat 
 being produced there is decidedly improving. They are taking more 
 pains in their cultivation, and their wheat is cleaner and is rather en- 
 hancing in price. We do not find this the case with Illinois wheat so 
 much, although 1 believe in Minnesota we get an improved kind of 
 wheat. Of course the extraordinary effort that the Russians are mak 
 ing for improving their transport tells very much against us here. For 
 example, the price of a bushel of corn at the present time in Chicago is 
 about 43 to 45 cents— probably 45 cents— on board a schooner, but the 
 cost of taking it to England is at least 55 cents in American currency, 
 so that the cost is actually much larger in taking it even by water com- 
 munication all the way. The cost of transportation is larger than the 
 original price of maize. The cost of bringing a bushel of wheat or corn 
 from Odessa is somewhere about one-half the price of bringing the same 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 177 
 
 from Chicago. Here we are getting very much also into steam carriage, 
 and we find that it answers us very well ; steam transportation I mean 
 from here. 
 
 I scarcely know the points that are desirable to be brought out, and 
 I had not prepared any statement on the subject, I am sorry to say. 
 
 The Chairman. The points that we desire brought out now, or that I' 
 will call your attention to now, are the relative advantages or disadvan- 
 tages of these foreign countries for competing in the European markets 
 with America. 
 
 Mr. Boomer. Of course I am more acquainted with the English 
 market than with the American market. In the English market they 
 have so very many other countries beside Eussia, even, that I would liken 
 the English demand to a series of concentric circles, and when you have 
 a very high price, the English can go a long way and draw in their sup- 
 plies from Australia, California, the East Indies, the Cape of Good Hope 
 —as they did last year — and from other places. 
 
 All these have to come in direct competition with American grain. 
 When prices are very high they can afford to pay high freight to send 
 to these far distant countries and bring in the grain. When prices are 
 low, of course the freight puts a stop to that, because the grain, we will 
 suppose, is generally at a low price in those distant countries, and there 
 is not much room to cut down the price of it. 
 
 The Chairman. Did you say the cost of transporting from Odessa is 
 greater than from this country ? 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. It is very much smaller at present. The cost of freight 
 is about seven and sixpence a quarter, and from New York about eight 
 and sixpence. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know their facilities for shipping in Eussia f. 
 I have understood they were very bad. 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. They are wonderfully improved. I do not know much- 
 about that, but I only infer it from the vast quantities they load in 
 Odessa. It is something immense. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. How far is the grain-growing region from Odessa; 
 how much interior transportation do they have to reach the main source 
 of supplies ? • 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. The railway is being run from Odessa right into the 
 north of Eussia, and the railway extension in the last three or four 
 years is fourteen hundred miles from Odessa — the branch line. As one 
 of the results of the Eussian war in 1855, the English government got 
 a commission appointed to improve the navigation of the Danube, and 
 have made it navigable 18 feet deep. Before the war it was only 14 
 feet. There were many bars. The water at the mouth of the river now 
 admits 18-feet vessels. It seems to drain a territory of 'about' 300,000 > 
 square miles, an immense wheat and corn producing country; and they 
 are producing cheaper every year, while it seems to me we are not do- 
 ing so. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. The railroad system is extended from Odessa how far I 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. Fourteen or fifteen hundred miles, and still increasing. 
 There are many wheat-producing countries there in the center of Eus- 
 sia that are now largely engaged in sending wheat down to Odessa for 
 export to Europe. 
 
 Up to the last ten years they never got a dollar for a bushel of wheat 
 at all. It was all a system growing among the states, and a system of 
 barter, but now it is as much a new country for all commercial pur- 
 poses of wheat production and export as any part here. 
 
 The Chairman. What is your judgment as to the probable supply of 
 12 t S 
 
178 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 the markets of Europe as between America and Prussia, with existing 
 facilities for transportation ; I mean is America or Eussia more likely to 
 supply the European demand 1 ? . 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. At present Eussia has an advantage, but America has 
 still more advantage in the quality of grain, and maintains that advan- 
 tage. Eussia, however, is apt to have considerable variation in. the 
 crop. This year they have had a great drought and poor crop. I think 
 their crops are subject to more contingenciesthan they are on this con- 
 tinent. 
 
 Of course when England and France together have large crops jou 
 must always expect an extraordinary low range of price. That must 
 always be the case, and always has been. For instance, England im- 
 ports about 100,000,000 bushels of wheat a year for her ordinary needs— 
 from eighty to one hundred million bushels. France very often supplies 
 a considerable portion of that ; but this year France will have to im- 
 port in large quantities both from America and Eussia. That is the 
 reason of our high prices in Europe. 
 
 The Chairman. Why did you state a while ago that you thought 
 Eussia had the advantage of us and would probably gain on us; what 
 are the conditions which would give her the advantage % 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. They have a cheaper population. Everything in Europe 
 seems to me to be rather toward low prices. In America it has some- 
 times seemed to me that the tendency is to high prices in everything; 
 high wages. Everything is dear in America, comparatively speaking. 
 For instance, in England if anything can be possibly produced in any 
 other part of the world cheaper than it can be produced there — be it any- 
 thing iu the world — cotton, anything' — a fleet of ships is sent out to 
 undersell their own men. In America you pursue a contrary policy and 
 shut things out of your country by high duties, that can be produced 
 cheaper away than at home. A very striking instance is in the supply 
 of our lower provinces? I think they consume something like 400,000 
 barrels of flour a year in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. They do not 
 raise any wheat. Now as long as you used to take coal from there ves- 
 sels would take coal down to New York and bring back flour to Halifax 
 and Saint John at sixpence or eightpence a barrel; but a duty of half 
 a dcrllar is imposed on it, and the consequence is you have not so many 
 coal-vessels going down and not so much flour to bring back. That 
 trade is now given to Montreal. She supplies about 400,000 or 500,000 
 barrels of flour, having taken away the trade from New York and Bos- 
 ton — especially from New York. They have no occasion to send their 
 vessels there, you not taking the coal. 
 
 In Eussia you have an extremely cheap population. Everything 
 seems to be driving down into cheap prices. The freight from Eussia is 
 always a little cheaper. They can employ a cheaper class of vessels. A 
 very large portion of our wheat trade here is carried across the Atlantic 
 in winter, and it requires a more expensive class of vessels than are run 
 to Eussia. It is not such a laborious voyage to Eussia as an Atlantic 
 voyage. 
 
 The Chairman, What, in your judgment, fixes the price of cereals 
 in this country and in ours? 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. What fixes the price in your country is the price in 
 England, for although. I think you raise about 250,000,000 of bushels of 
 wheat and about 1,000,000,000 of bushels of corn, and although you 
 really export only about 10 per cent, of all that vast produce to Europe, 
 it is the 10 per cent, that regulates the price of all the rest, and that is 
 seen in every and all experience. To-day we receive, for instance, by 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 179 
 
 <;able that maize has gone up about three cents a bushel. To export it 
 we can give three cents a bushel more to-day than, yesterday. The 
 consequence is we are willing to buy in Chicago at that price, but that 
 is three cents upon every bushel of maize there, not only upon what we 
 purchase for export, but the market goes np. If you made your facili- 
 ties for transportation all the cheaper it would really be adding to the 
 value of all the maize you raise, because we could give a little more for 
 it for export. I have no doubt whatever that the price of export, and, 
 consequently, the English market, entirely regulates your prices. Ton 
 get the English market down a shilling, and down goes Chicago and 
 Milwaukee the very day. 
 
 The Chairman. That is an almost invariable rule, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Eimmee. It is an absolute, invariable rule. The circumstance 
 that fixes the price in England is the English and French crop together; 
 not the American crop, or but rarely, except in a downward way. The 
 price of maize at present is only 45 cents in Chicago, but we cannot ex- 
 port it at that price to England. To export it to England it would only 
 leave the shipper 35 cents a bushel, because we get it cheaper from the 
 cities on the Danube. 
 
 There is a little temporary variation there this year ; they have a 
 poor crop there, but that is only beginning to take effect now. Up to 
 July, it was cheaper from those ports than from here. 
 
 The Chairman. Is the consumption of corn increasing or decreasing 
 in England"? 
 
 Mr. Simmer. It is increasing enormously; so much so that many 
 farmers turn their attention to raising wheat, and even buy American 
 or Danube corn for consumption on their own farms to fatten cattle, for 
 it is not yet used in England for human food. A very little in Ireland, 
 perhaps, but not at all in England. In England, up to recent years, 
 corn was scarcely used at all, but has increased in consumption much. 
 The London Omnibus Company have about eight thousand horses, and 
 they have always fed them on oats, there being a prejudice in their 
 favor ; but if they are dear the company pays no dividend, the con- 
 sumption is so enormous. Some years ago they turned their attention 
 to corn, and it answers admirably. It saved them 6616,000 in one year, 
 because the corn was cheap, or about $80,000. This they saved in* the 
 simple item of feed to their horses; but that was chiefly in American 
 corn and during a year when it was very low. 
 
 It is also now greatly used in distilling, starch-making, and especially; 
 in feeding hogs. If corn could be sent to England a little cheaper, 
 there is no limit to the consumption of it. One reason of that is the 
 change in the articles of food among the English population. They 
 now consume, I suppose, three or four times as much animal food as 
 twenty years ago. The habits of the people have changed. For the last 
 ten or twelve years we cannot afford to pack beef in England; I sup? 
 pose, for fifteen years ; nor for twenty years can we afford to pack pork, 
 because the price of the. fresh meat is so large, the population being 
 large and the country very small, and it is difficult to export fresh beef 
 from here ; but we can export salt provisions. A larger consumption 
 of animal food has created an immense demand for feeding-stuffs, 
 especially for corn, which has become a favorite. I think that in 
 England the consumption of corn is about 50,000,000 bushels a year, a 
 mete trifle. I have no doubt it could be quadrupled if corn were to 
 come down something in price. 
 
 Corn is at the present time the cheapest feeding cereal we have. . 
 Turnips are cheaper, but do not answer all the purposes, of course. If 
 
180 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 it were cheaper still, it would supersede the barley and oats, which are 
 
 used to a certain extent. „ _!,.„+ 0™,™ nil t „* 
 
 The cause for the demand for different kinds ^ ^ea* pxra^ out of 
 
 We are very foud of the Milwaukee or Minnesota wheat. It is one of the 
 strongest. Upper Canada wheat is still stronger. By strong" I mean 
 that wheat, as a given quantity of flour, absorbs a larger quantity of 
 water. I suppose a barrel of Upper Canada wheat may make four 
 pounds of bread more than a barrel of other flour ; but sometimes, of 
 course, we want color, and then we look for California wheat. If they, 
 fail in France or Prussia, we must go somewhere else for it, and then 
 we get the California wheat. In England they never think of grinding 
 as they grind here, one single kind of wheat, but generally mix three or 
 four kinds to grind. Hence, sometimes I have seen Milwaukee wheat 
 at a higher relative range than it would otherwise be if that particular 
 class was wanted. 
 
 At the present time there has been a great deal of rain in England, 
 and I suppose the English wheat will come to market and the miller 
 will want a proportion of about five bushels of foreign wheat to three 
 of home-grown wheat for grinding, so that, even if they have a very 
 large crop, they must have foreign wheat until their own comes into ' 
 condition, which in England does not happen, perhaps, until after there 
 has been a frost. 
 
 The Chairman. I understood you tosay that you make an absolute 
 purchase in the western markets. 
 Mr. Eimmer. Always, sir. 
 ■ The Chairman. No consignments ? 
 Mr. Eimmer. None. 
 
 The Chairman. How do the charges for transportation usually com- 
 pare between this point and New York 1 You ship, of course, from the 
 most economical point ? 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. Yes, sir, we have shipped from New York, and some- 
 times from Boston. We prefer the Saint Lawrence, chiefly because we 
 are here and can do our own business ; and the business is so close one 
 must put one's own labor in, and cannot well afford to pay charges to 
 a commission-house on the sea-board in America. 
 
 The Chairman. About what is the margin usually between the two 
 points ? 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. I should say it was five or six, or sometimes eight, cents 
 a bushel in favor of Montreal ; but, then, on the other hand, we get a 
 cheaper ocean freight from New York than from Montreal, which about 
 compensates it. 
 
 The Chairman. I mean what is usually the margin between the two, 
 or does it vary? 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. The margin is almost always in favor of Montreal ; 
 that is to say, the New York purchaser and we ourselves are exactly 
 on the same footing ; we both pay the same price in the market ; but 
 we can bring it here much cheaper than the New York merchant can 
 take it to New York, and, we believe, also in better condition. We 
 bring it through colder waters and in larger bulks. Our barges bring 
 20,000 bushels down the canal, whereas down the Erie you bring" seven 
 or eight thousand bushels; and we think the larger barge, drawing 
 eight or nine feet, and colder water, brings it in cooler condition. That 
 is the general experience we have. But when we get here we are at a 
 disadvantage, as compared with the New York shipper, for we have to 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 181 
 
 pay a higher ocean freight, chiefly because New York is such an immense 
 place for imports and for immigration. There are so many of those enor- 
 mous steamers — the National Line, the Williams and Guion Line, and 
 the Inman Line — will very often bring out a thousand immigrants, and 
 they can afford to go back all the cheaper. A great number of the ves- 
 sels coming here this year have come in ballast. 
 
 The Chairman. How do you conduct your wheat trade in the winter? 
 
 Mr. Bimmer. We generally let it alone. When we do any we carry 
 at through Portland. If, however, there was a settled trade here, so 
 that there was a traffic up the river as well as down, it would bring a 
 great many sailing-ships and steamers here, and they could go back 
 with cheaper freights or return freights of grain. For instance, I sup- 
 pose that the average rate of pig-iron freight from here to Chicago has 
 been from two to three dollars a ton, because, as the return propeller 
 goes empty, she would be very glad to take a little freight. 
 
 The Chairman. Is not that trade largely increasing here ? 
 
 Mr. Bimmer. One thing would check it, the enormous duty, $8 a 
 ton. But I am disposed to think that the importation of iron is rather 
 smaller this year than it has been before. Before there was a high 
 duty there was a very great trade in carrying iron up to Chicago, and 
 then we brought down freights all the cheaper, and we had cheap ocean 
 freights. We put Bussia at defiance in that way. 
 
 The Chairman. How are wheat and corn brought from Chicago here 
 usually? 
 
 Mr. EnotEK. Generally by schooners through the Welland Canal 
 down to Kingston, and these schooners will carry about 17,000 bushels 
 without lightening at the Welland Canal. That canal is now being 
 enlarged. At Kingston we always ship it into barges, for we find that 
 a barge, which is only about one-third of the cost of a propeller, is 
 cheaper to bring stuff down a canal than the propeller. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the price of transshipment at Kingston ? 
 
 Mr. Bimmer. Half a cent a bushel, but it does not enter into the com- 
 putation with the owner. 
 
 The Chairman. That is included in the price of transportation 
 through ? 
 
 Mr. Bevqiek. Yes, sir. Transshipment has an advantage in airing 
 the grain. 
 
 The ChairmAn. What size barges do you use? 
 
 Mr. Bimmer. Sixteen to twenty thousand bushels. 
 
 The Chairman. A barge will hold as much, then, as a schooner? 
 
 Mr. BrMMER. Yes, sir ; a barge will hold a schooner-load, in a gen- 
 eral way. 
 
 The Chairman. What are your terminal facilities at Montreal for the 
 grain trade? 
 
 Mr. Bimmer. As a general thing the barge goes alongside the ship. We 
 avoid warehousing if possible. I think during September of this year my 
 firm has brought down probably 400,000 bushels. The trade has been 
 rather large — between three and four hundred thousand bushels, at all 
 events. I think of that we have had to warehouse about 40,000 bushels. 
 The rest has gone direct from the barge on board ship at an expense of 
 something like five-eighths of a cent, which is all the loading expense, 
 the only expense we have here. There is some small charge for wharf- 
 age, a quarter of a cent. At all events, three-quarters of a cent a bushel 
 puts the stuff on board ship and sends it off. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know your warehousing capacity here ? 
 
 Mr. BrMMER. I scarcely know that, sir. 
 
182 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Please give us the ruling rate of freight from Chicago 
 to Montreal. 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. During the months of July and August the rate of 
 freight from Chicago to Montreal was about 15 cents a bushel; proba- 
 bly 16 cents a. bushel. We paid about 11 cents a bushel to Kingston, 
 American currency. 
 
 The Chairman. There has been a very sudden rise recently, has there 
 not! 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. O, yes, sir ; we are paying 26 cents a bushel, American 
 currency. 
 
 The Chairman. Give us your theory of the cause of that. 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. I suppose the enormous receipts into Chicago and Mil- 
 waukee. They have been quite unparallelled. I see Chicago and Milwau- 
 kee have received grain, including barley, rye, and oats very often^- 
 three-quarters of a million a day in the two cities together ; and the 
 harvest has come in suddenly and largely. Probably the freights were 
 driven too low, and a great many vessels have been withdrawn into the 
 iron* and lumber trade. This is an extreme rate, and probably 11 cents 
 was an extremely low rate. I should suppose that about 12 or 14 cents 
 is a remunerative price for schooners to Kingston, and about 4J cents 
 down. Eighteen cents, I should say, is a paying price for the trade. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. That includes everything ? 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. Yes, sir; everything — transferring at Kingston, &c. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. What is the toll on the Welland Canal? 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. One-half a cent a bushel included in the freight. 
 
 Mr. Davis. When your canals are completed what do you estimate 
 the freight will be ? 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. It is so much a matter of estimate I have not gone into 
 it. I do not know. I think we shall do it cheaper. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What is the present cost of a bushel when it goes into 
 your warehouse here "? 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. We avoid storing if we can, because we have such fa- 
 cilities for shipping. Our winter storage is four cents a bushel for the 
 whole of the "winter, and the storage expenses otherwise come to about 
 a cent and a half a month. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Then the transfer, if it went to a warehouse here, would 
 be about a cent and a half for a month, but less for a shorter time. Por 
 the first five days a cent, and half a cent for each succeeding ten days. 
 The prices here are absolutely fixed by competition, are they not, on 
 the lakes and the water 1 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. Quite so. Our freight from Chicago or Milwaukee to 
 Kingston is always the same as the rate from the same cities to Oswego. 
 Then the rate of freight from Kingston is uniform, 4£ cents a bushel. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the distance from here to Kingston ? 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. One hundred and eighty miles. 
 
 The Chairman. Why do we import wheat into the United States 
 from Canada ? I think I know, but I desire your answer. 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. In America they are consumers of very high class flour. 
 Canada white wheats give about the whitest flour that we have on the 
 continent, and the Americans buy our white wheats and consume them, 
 when we cannot afford to do it ourselves nor expoit it to England, be- 
 cause the English draw their white wheats generally from another 
 source. 
 
 The Chairman. How are your wheats graded in the market ? 
 
 Mr. Eimmer. We adopt your western grades on your western wheats. 
 Then we have Upper Canada spring wheat, Nos. 1 and 2.. We call them 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 183 
 
 by the class of wheat — Deal wheat, or the otber specific names, the 
 Treadwell wheat, &c. Our classification of white wheat is pretty much 
 the same as it is in England. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you answer, or will some one else here answer, 
 more certainly the question as to what your government bas done for 
 the improvement of these canals and the enlargement of them H I 
 mean what has been the action of the government upon that point 1 
 
 Mr. Bimmer. Our government, about eight years ago, made an ap- 
 propriation for the enlargement of the Welland Canal, but we are not 
 particularly proud of our government, and our greatest comfort is to get 
 them out of our way when we are engaged in commercial affairs. They 
 are now enlarging it from an appropriation made. 
 
 The Chairman. Have they appropriated a specific amount, or only 
 a sufficient sum to carry on the work for the year 1 
 
 Mr. Bimmer. I cannot say. Our government formerly had the entire 
 control of our harbor here. They have no commercial ideas, and they 
 starve us. We have now got the control more into our own hands, and 
 will push it very vigorously and increase our facilities, which will make 
 .our trade all the larger. 
 
 The Chairman. What assurance have you that the government will 
 enlarge these canals, and how is that assurance given ¥ 
 
 Mr. Bimmer. They have absolutely made an appropriation for all the 
 enlargement that the Welland Canal requires. 1 do not know that our 
 other canals require much enlargement. 
 
 The Chairman. I meant the Welland Canal. 
 
 Mr. Bimmer. That work is at last in progress, and will be carried out. 
 I have no doubt of that. Contracts are out, and the work has begun. 
 There is no doubt about that enlargement. Then we do not seem to 
 require the St. Lawrence canals, that is, from Kingston to here, to be 
 enlarged, because they already bring down barges of 20,000 bushels, and 
 that is quite large enough. My own opinion is that it is not desirable 
 to bring the enlarged propellers down to Montreal. It would be rather 
 undesirable, because barges are so much cheaper, cheaper handled, and 
 ■can do the canal-work at a less money. The propeller does lake- work 
 all the better. 
 
 Mr. Davis. To what size is the Welland Canal being increased? 
 
 Mr. Bimmer. I do not know that, sir. 1 have not the figures with 
 me. 
 
 The committee here adjourned. 
 
 Oswego, New York, 
 Thursday, September 1 8, 1873. 
 
 The committee met at 10 a. m., and were addressed by Hon. John 
 C. Churchill. 
 
 Mr. Windom. Gentlemen of the committee, I understand that the 
 citizens of Oswego desire, through a representative, to present very 
 briefly some statements on the subject of transportation. We are now 
 ready to hear them. , 
 
 Hon. John C. Churchill. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the com- 
 mittee of the Senate of the United States : The board of trade of this 
 city, on learning of your appointment, and of your proposed action in 
 examining the different routes between the West and the East, appointed 
 
lg4 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 a committee of their members for the purpose of J™ 8 *"* « n *J. «J* 
 mation as they could obtain for the assistance of / « ^J^m 
 arriving at your conclusions, and they desire me to . Present in a few 
 words what we -regard as the superior advantages of the Oneida Lake 
 route as a communication between the West and the i^ast. 
 
 The presence of you, gentlemen, here, representing widely separated 
 States of the Union, is sufficient evidence that there is some great 
 national necessity which is pressing upon the attention of the American 
 people, and when we look at the last census ot the United States and 
 find that our six Northwestern States produced 7;j bushels of cereals to 
 each individual of their population, while our six Northeastern States 
 produced less than six bushels to each of their population, we can very 
 readily see what great national interest there is existing which called 
 for the creation of your committee. 
 
 The great problem which has been committed to you to solve— one of 
 the most important now before the American people — is how to make 
 this great production of the West, which is now joyless because profitless, 
 joyful because profitable, and at the same time to make its consumption 
 less bitter because absorbing less of the rewards of toil in providing the 
 laborer and his family food. 
 
 We think experience has shown that the railroads are not sufficient to 
 fully answer this question. The superior cost of movement by those as 
 compared with the water, and also the facilities which exist for these 
 great corporations to combine for the purpose of putting up freights, 
 points to the water-routes of the country, which by the fact that there 
 competition is open to everybody, and that high freights upon them start 
 into activity every ship-yard upon the lakes and every boat-yard upon 
 our rivers and canals, show that those are the true regulators of the 
 freight tariffs of the country. 
 
 And among these water-routes we call your attention to the Oneida 
 'Lake route. We have prepared a map, a copy of which will be placed 
 in the hands of each member of the committee, which shows the differ- 
 ent routes from the West to the Bast: from Buffalo by the Brie Canal to 
 Albany ; through Lake Ontario by Oswego to Albany ; from Lake On- 
 tario through the Saint Lawrence Eiver, and by the Caughnawaga Canal 
 to Lake Ohamplain, and the Champlain Canal again to Albany. 
 
 Putting your finger at Albany, and tracing the blue lines upon the 
 map to the west to the red line, and from there through the Oneida Lake 
 and the red line to the blue line again, on the Oswego Eiver, and so to 
 Oswego, and you find a continuous water line. 
 
 You are following the Mohawk Eiver to Eome ; there Wood Creek 
 conies within a mile of the Mohawk, and runs into Oneida Lake. 
 
 From Oneida Lake Oneida Eiver flows into the Oswego Eiver, and 
 from there to the lake. 
 
 In making that passage you have passed entirely through the great 
 Appalachian range of mountains, extending from Quebec to the State 
 of Mississippi, and which is the great obstacle to communication be- 
 tween theproducingand the, at present, consumingportion of thecountry. 
 You have passed through that range at a point so low that the waters of 
 the Mohawk Eiver, rising and draining the western slopes of the range, 
 have passed through it and so on to the Hudson Eiver and the tide- 
 waters of the Atlantic, and at no point at a*n elevation of more than 
 180 feet above the waters of Lake Ontario. 
 
 We say that that is the natural route. It is the route which nature 
 herself has pointed out, and it was provided by her as a wonderful pro- 
 vision for the future wants of the country. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. ' 185 
 
 For the first century after the English established theaiselves on 
 Lake Ontario, it was the route by which communication between the 
 East and the West was made, and it was abandoned so far as the route 
 west from Eonie is concerned, not because of any inferiority in its ad- 
 vantages, but because at the time when we entered upon the construc- 
 tion of our canal system, the same cry was coming from the valleys of 
 the Genesee, and the Xiagaru, and the central lakes of the State of New 
 York, which now comes to us from the West. 
 
 Their productions, their wheat — the finest wheat in the world — was 
 worth half a dollar on the Genesee, and a dollar and a half on the Hud- 
 son, and it was for the purpose of giving an outlet to that wonderfully 
 productive portion of this State that when the State located its cauals, 
 it located them through to Lake Erie at Buffalo, instead of establishing 
 them on the line which had been used for a century before that time, 
 through the Oneida Lake, terminating at Oswego. 
 
 There is one fact which is now transpiring, which changes very much 
 the national problem, and that is the fact that the Canadian govern- 
 ment have already entered upon the enlargement of the Welland Canal. 
 In three years from the coming spring that canal will be enlarged to a 
 capacity of 1,500 tons. It now takes through vessels of 500 tons only. 
 W hen that improvement is completed the produce of the West, which now, 
 by the force of the obstruction of Magara Falls and of the limited ca- 
 pacity of the Welland Canal, terminates at Lake Erie, will have entered 
 Lake Ontario, and the question whether it shall leave Lake Ontario 
 over American soil, or by a foreign route, enriching our commercial 
 rivals, is one of the questions which is before you for your consideration. 
 
 That we cannot compete, even with large vessels, with our present 
 canal facilities, with the Saint Lawrence route and the advantages of 
 Montreal, has been shown by the experience of the last two or three 
 years. 
 
 Formerly, when the depth of water upon the Saint Clair flats com- 
 pelled the use of vessels upon the upper lakes which could pass the 
 Welland Canal, as was the case until 1858 or 1860, about the same 
 quantity of grain from the West was received at Oswego as at Buffalo 
 for eastern transmission ; but with the deepening of the water of the 
 Saint Clair flats, vessels used upon the upper lakes were from year to 
 year enlarged, until finally they could not pass the Welland Canal into 
 Lake Ontario, and the consequence of the greater cheapening in? the 
 use of those vessels, and the advantages it gave to the Buffalo route, 
 has been such that for years we, at Oswego, have been substantially out 
 of the field as competitors for western grain. We could not compete on 
 even terms with the large vessels used upon the upper lakes, even with 
 the disadvantages of the greater length of canal which our Buffalo 
 friends were obliged to use. 
 
 But three or four years ago the Canadians introduced at Kingston 
 the use of barges upon the Saint Lawrence, and the practice of trans- 
 shipment at Kingston. Before that time, when lake vessels passing 
 through the Welland Canal into Lake Ontario themselves attempted to 
 go down the Saint Lawrence to Montreal, we found no serious injury 
 from the competition. 
 
 There was very little grain that did not take the Oswego route if it 
 once came into Lake Ontario, in preference to the Saint Lawrence route. 
 But with the transshipment to barges at Kingston, just opposite us on 
 Lake Ontario, at the mouth of the Saint Lawrence Eiver, the use of 
 lake vessels where they could be cheaply used along, the length of the 
 lakes, and the use of barges on the Saint Lawrence to Montreal, it has 
 
186 " TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 given them such an advantage that they have drawn every year for the 
 last two or three vears very seriously upon our trade, not only at Oswego, 
 but at Buffalo. They took thirteen millions of bushels of grain the year 
 before last, and seventeen millions of bushels the last year. I am told 
 they will take twenty-five and perhaps thirty millions of bushels this 
 year. So tliey are continually drawing, not only upon Oswego, but 
 upon Buffalo, and have established the fact, by the experience of the 
 last two or three years, that grain in Chicago can be put in Liverpool 
 cheaper by that route than by either the Buffalo or Oswego route. 
 
 They do that now with the necessity of using small vessels on the 
 lakes in competition with the large vessels going into Buffalo, but when 
 they are built to take the large vessels of the West into Lake Ontario 
 and pursue this same practice, the committee will at once perceive that 
 the advantage which they now possess will be greatly increased, and 
 that our entire foreign export of grain must be expected to seek that 
 route to market, instead of passing over our own territory and enrich- 
 ing our own people. 
 
 In presenting the Oneida Lake route as we do, we say that it is the 
 shortest route between the Bast and the West. 
 
 The actual miles of these different routes from Chicago to New York 
 is, by the way of Montreal, 1,643 miles; from Chicago to New York by 
 the way of Buffalo, 1,425 miles; from Chicago to New York by the way 
 of Oswego, 1,410 miles. That is, we have fewer miles, as a matter of 
 fact, by our route, though the difference between our route and the 
 Buffalo route is not so very considerable, being only fifteen miles. 
 
 But the true difference is not shown by a mere statement of these 
 distances. They are made up of lake and of river and canal navigation. 
 They vary in the quantities of each of these, and as the cost of trans- 
 portation over each of these varieties of navigation is different, of 
 course we can only get at the real difference between the three routes 
 by reducing these routes to one or other of those methods of naviga- 
 tion ; and that is a matter which is very easily done. 
 
 Our most careful observers of the cost of navigation by these differ- 
 ent routes, and among these there is none more eminent in the United 
 States than the Hon. Wm. J. McAlpine, of Albany, have stated the cost 
 of transportation by the different methods as follows : 
 
 It costs a mill and a half per mile to move a ton upon the lakes. By 
 the rivers it costs two mills to move a ton a mile. It costs four mills to 
 move a ton a mile upon ship-canals ; that is, canals taking vessels from 
 700 to 1,000 or 1,200 tons. It costs six mills to move a ton a mile over 
 our present Erie or Oswego Canal. 
 
 The Chairman. Before you leave that point, you understood that esti- 
 mate to be based upon the actual cost to the carrier ? 
 
 Mr. Churchill. Yes, sir ; the actual cost of movement. It excludes 
 tolls. In other words, it supposes each of these water-routes to be with- 
 out charge ; I mean the lake, the river, or the canal equally without 
 tolls. But it does take into account the interest on the cost oif the ves- 
 sel, the cost of her running— all expenses, in fact, with the exception of 
 this item of tolls and maintenance of water-routes. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Where do you find that computation of Mr. McAl- 
 pine's ? 
 
 Mr. Churchill. It is not in the book which I have before me, but it 
 will be found in other documents which I have presented to the com- 
 mittee, and will be found in an address which was made by Mr. McAl- 
 pine to the Chamber of Commerce of the city of New York, on the 8th 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 187 
 
 of May, 1873. If I mistake not the honorable chairman has a copy of 
 the document. 
 
 Now, taking those figures from them we derive these facts : from 
 Chicago to Albany by the way of Buffalo and the present Erie Canal 
 involves the use 920 miles of lake navigation at one and a half mills 
 per ton a mile, which, converted into ship-canal navigation, equals 346-J 
 miles. The 352 miles of 'Erie Canal navigation is equal to 528 miles of 
 sbip-caual navigation. The ship-canal being four mills, and the Erie 
 Canal sis, the equivalent of the 352 miles of Erie is 528 miles of ship- 
 canal navigation, making the distance from Chicago to Albany by the 
 Erie Canal as now constructed the equivalent of a ship-canal 874§ miles 
 long. 
 
 Supposing the same route to be enlarged, that is, the Erie Canal to 
 be enlarged to a capacity to take a vessel of from seven to eight hun- 
 dred tons through, and then the calculation would stand : 025 miles of 
 lake navigation would be equal to ship-canal navigation 34CJ miles, as 
 above, and the Erie Canal, its length being 352 miles, becomes 352 
 miles of ship-canal navigation, making the whole distance G98J miles. 
 That is, the distance from Chicago to Albany by the way of the lakes 
 and Buffalo, and. the Erie Canal enlarged to ship-canal size, is the equiv- 
 alent of a ship-canal 698J miles long. 
 
 Chicago to Albany, by the way of Lake Champlain, involves 1,173 miles 
 of lake navigation, which is equal to ship-canal navigation 439-J miles. 
 
 One hundred and sixty-five miles of ship-canal navigation, equal to 
 that, and 157 miles of river navigation — that is, the Saint Lawrence and 
 the Bichelieu Biver, from St. John's to Bouse's Point — which would be 
 equal to 78.J miles of ship-canal navigation, and that makes the route 
 from Chicago to Albany, by the way of Lake Champlain, equal to ship- 
 canal navigation of 683J miles. 
 
 The entire route is the equivalent of a ship-canal navigation of CS3-J 
 miles. 
 
 Now the route by the way of Oswego and Oneida Lake would be 
 1,063£ miles of lake navigation, equal to ship-canal navigation of 398| 
 miles, and 198J miles of ship-canal navigation, which is equal to 19SJ 
 miles, making the entire distance 599^ miles. 
 
 I do not believe that those figures can be successfully attacked, and 
 they show this, that the route from Chicago to Albany, by the way of 
 Buffalo and the present Erie Canal, is equal to the, navigation of a ship- 
 canal 874 miles long. 
 
 Enlarge the Erie Canal, and it becomes equal to the navigation of a 
 ship-canal 698 miles long. 
 
 Take the Champlain route, and it is equal to a ship-canal 683 miles 
 long, while the Oswego route is the equal of a ship-canal 597 miles long. 
 
 That is to say, the advantages of our route are 83 miles of ship- 
 canal navigation better than the Champlain route ; they are 101 miles 
 better than Buffalo, even with the Erie Canal enlarged to ship-canal 
 size. And this advantage, as everyone knows, is an advantage which 
 is too large than to be otherwise than controlling, supposing that all 
 three routes were improved, and that the business was left to seek the 
 route which was the cheapest and the best. 
 
 There is one item which has been omitted in this calculation, and 
 which should be mentioned, and that is the item of lockage. There is 
 a tittle more lockage by this route than there is by either of the other 
 two. There is about 200 feet of lockage more than by the Champlain 
 route, and there is more than that iii excess of the lockage by Buffalo. 
 The entire lockage by Oswego would be 938 feet, by Montreal and Lake 
 
188 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Champlain 715 feet, and by Buffalo 655 feet. But the difference is best 
 shown by the number of locks. We should have eighteen locks more. 
 
 We do not rise, when we leave here to go up to the Erie Canal, the 
 whole distance which we sank in coining down from Lake line on to 
 Lake Ontario, because a part of that distance has been lost in coming 
 from Buffalo by the wav of the Erie Canal. In coming from Lake Erie 
 to Lake Ontario we sink 320 feet, and in going from here to the summit 
 at Borne— to the Erie-Canal level— we rise only 181 feet, and as 10 feet 
 is about the average of locks, it is the equivalent of eighteen locks, and 
 that is, as you perceive, just about the difference. 
 
 We have eighteen locks more than the Buffalo, and twenty-one locks, 
 I think, more than the Champlain route, although the number could be 
 reduced somewhat with the construction of the new canal. Now, these 
 eighteen locks, as Mr. McAlpine states in this same speech before the 
 chamber of commerce — of which your chairman has a copy — are accepted 
 substantially by engineers as the equivalent, each of them, of a mile 
 of canal ; that is, to pass through a lock involves about- the trouble, in- 
 convenience, and loss of time of moving over a mile of canal, so that 
 when you have subtracted eighteen miles from our advantage, you have 
 allowed for the entire difference of lockage, and you perceive that when 
 you have done that it still leaves us a very large advantage over either 
 of these other routes. 
 
 The route, then, is the shortest, and that necessarily brings us to the 
 conclusion that it is the cheapest route of the three. 
 
 But your committee will find in the answers of Mr. McAlpine to the 
 eleventh, twelfth, and thirteenth interrogatories, which were submitted 
 to him, that the question of cost was very exhaustively analyzed and 
 elaborated, and he arrives, by another method of calculation entirely, at 
 a conclusion very similar to the one which I have presented. 
 
 And now with regard to these differences of cost, I will only call at- 
 tention to the table found on the nineteenth page of this report. In 
 this calculation, as before, tolls and insurance are left out of the account, 
 it being the cost of movement, not taking into account the expense of 
 maintaining the canal, or of building the canal, supposing that each of 
 these water-routes is made free to the commerce passing over it. 
 He makes the cost of carrying a ton from Chicago to New York, by 
 Buffalo and the present Erie Canal, $4.21 ; of carrying a ton over Buf- 
 falo and the Erie Canal, supposing steam to be introduced upon the Erie 
 Canal, but the canal to be used at the present size, $2.87; by Buffalo 
 and the Erie Canal, supposing the Erie Canal enlarged so that 750-ton 
 boats could be used, $2.78; by the Caughnawaga or Champlain route, 
 $2.75 ; and by the Oneida Lake, $2.52 per ton. 
 
 That first cost is supposing each barge used on the Oneida Lake car- 
 ried with it its own motive-power, engine, machinery, &c; but suppos- 
 ing that the machinery were only put upon every other barge, then the 
 cost would be reduced to $2.28 per ton from Chicago to New York, or 
 six cents and eight hundred and forty-seven thousandths — a trifle less 
 than seven cents — as the cost of moving a bushel of grain from Chicago 
 to New York by the Oneida route. 
 
 There are other advantages, however, which our route possesses as 
 compared with these other routes. In the first place, as compared with 
 the Caughnawaga route, the Champlain route. 
 
 This route from Chicago to New York passes entirely over American 
 territory, with the exception of the Welland Canal. The use of the Wel- 
 land Canal is secured to us by the treaty of Washington, and that same 
 treaty also secures to the people of Canada the right to navigate Lake 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 189" 
 
 Michigan, a right of the very highest importance to them ; also the- 
 right to use the Saint Marie Canal and the Saint Clair Flats Canal. 
 
 And if they should interpret the treaty, so far as we are concerned in 
 the use of the Welland Canal, in an unfriendly spirit, or if they should 
 infringe upon that treaty, we have in our hands the remedy, because 
 we can withhold from them privileges which are far more important to 
 them as a people than the use of the Welland Canal is to us as a peo- 
 ple. The same advantage — that is, the protection which that treaty 
 gives to the Welland Canal — also extends to the canals of the Saint 
 Lawrence. 
 
 We have the right to use the canals of the Saint Lawrence from here 
 to Montreal secured to us by the same treaty, and the same legislation 
 of the Dominion Parliament, as is the use of the Welland Canal. 
 But the Caughnawaga Canal, which is an essential part of that route — 
 an essential link in it — is not protected by the provisions of that treaty, 
 and if Montreal, in her anxiety to secure, as she is most anxious to se- 
 cure, the concentration of the great grain-trade of the West at Mon- 
 treal, should be able , to induce, not the Dominion Parliament, if you 
 please, but the Provincial Parliament of Quebec, to adopt legislation 
 which should embarrass the navigation of that canal, we cannot claim 
 that that action would be any infringement of the letter or the spirit 
 of the treaty of Washington. 
 
 There is another advantage we have as compared with that route, 
 and that is at least two weeks earlier navigation in the spring, and two 
 weeks later navigation in the fall, and that occurring, too, at the very 
 time when the pressure of western grain for movement is the greatest. 
 As to my authority for this, I have had some opportunity for observa- 
 tion myself, for my own native county is within a few miles of the 
 Saint Lawrence Eiver ; but I have also the word of Mr. Moses Merrick,, 
 who is known to some of your members, and who was for many years 
 of his life very extensively engaged with his brother, Mr. Merrick, of 
 Detroit, in the navigation of the Saint Lawrence Eiver, those brothers 
 having sent more oak timber probably from this country to Quebec 
 than any other living men. Mr. Merrick tells me that this calculation, 
 iustead of being too high, is too low. 
 
 Mr. Windom. You are making your comparison now between the- 
 present canal and the opening of the Saint Lawrence River ? 
 
 Mr. Churchill. Between any canal from here to Albany by Oneida 
 Lake, and any route by the way of the Caughnawaga Canal. 
 
 Mr. Windom. Tou do not compare the time of opening the present 
 canal with the Saint Lawrence Eiver ? 
 
 Mr. Churchill. No, sir ; I compare the difference of seasons — the 
 difference in time of opening, if you please, the port of Montreal and 
 the port of Albany. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. You are speaking of temperature and latitude I 
 
 Mr. Churchill. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Windom. It is claimed that the Saint Lawrence is opened 
 twenty days earlier, and that the season is twenty days longer, than by 
 either of these other canals ! 
 
 Mr. Churchill. You will find, in addition to the authority which I 
 have quoted, unless I am very much mistaken, that in some of the 
 tables connected with Mr. McAlpine's speech before the Chamber ot 
 Commerce of the city of New York in last May, and which was made 
 after a very careful and friendly examination, too, of the merits of the 
 Champlain route, certain figures there given which I think show, not 
 
190 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 merely the difference which I have stated, but a difference of some 
 days in addition, taking the whole year together. 
 
 Mr. Wikdom. Would you say that the time of opening and closing of ■ 
 the river at the head of Lake Champlain, and the actual opening and 
 closing of your canal, would be a fair comparison s ,,,.-.,,, 
 
 Mr. Churchill. Yes, sir. The Richelieu Eiver and the Chamblee 
 Canal would be a fair comparison with these routes, although at the 
 same time, so far as the opening of our canals is concerned, that is 
 hardly a fair test, because the Erie Canal navigation is not commenced 
 until all our canals are ready for navigation, and particularly until Lake 
 Erie is ready for navigation, and Lake Erie always, I believe, that is, 
 taking the average of years, opens later than Lake Ontario. Our lake 
 is considerably deeper than Lake Erie. It never freezes over. 
 
 And let me say, the proper comparison would not be between our 
 canals, because they are affected by these considerations which I have 
 just now mentioned, but it will be between the Welland Canal and the 
 Chamblee Canal. If your secretary, who is very good at procuring sta- 
 tistics, will find, as he will be able very easily to find, the days of offi- 
 cial opening of the Welland Canal and of the Chamblee Canal, I think 
 that those two routes will show very fairly the difference. The naviga- 
 tion of the route from here to Albany could at any time be opened as 
 soon as the navigation of the Welland Canal could be resumed. That 
 could always be done. 
 
 Another advantage which our canal has, as we regard it, over the 
 canals of the Saint Lawrence, is that it escapes the fogs of the Saint 
 Lawrence. Any one who is familiar with the navigation of that river 
 knows that during the entire season there is more or less detention in 
 consequence of. the heavy fogs which prevail, but this is particularly 
 true of the spring, and of the greater part of the fall, and more partic- 
 ularly the latter part of the fall of the year. 
 Mr. Windom. At what point on the Saint Lawrence ? 
 Mr. Churchill. The whole distance from Cape Vincent, where we 
 left last night, to Montreal — to the mouth of the Caughuawaga Canal. 
 The whole distance is affected by severe fogs, which often for a consid- 
 erable length of time together make navigation certainly slow, and 
 sometimes suspend it altogether for hours. 
 
 As compared with the Buffalo or Erie Canal route, we have one very 
 considerable advantage in the fact that that route avoids very largely, 
 and almost entirely, the large cities and villages of this State. 
 
 In the western part of this State we have Buffalo and Lockport, 
 Rochester, and Syracuse, a large number of cities and large villages, 
 through which the present Erie Canal passes, and the cost of construc- 
 tion would be very considerably enhanced of course by the necessity of 
 enlarging through these villages and cities, and in addition to that the 
 embarrassment of navigation would be very considerably increased 
 for the same reason, viz, the necessity of passing the, numerous street 
 bridges, which would have to be done. 
 
 From here to Albany, you will see to-day as you go up.along the line 
 of this canal, from here to Oneida — from here to Home— there is not a 
 single village of any importance where you pass through its streets, with, 
 the exception, perhaps, of the village of Pulton, andthere it is only in 
 a small part of the village, the canal taking the river-bank and leaving 
 the street undisturbed, 
 
 Another advantage which we have is the water-supply, and to that I 
 beg to call your particular attention, because it is a matter of very 
 great importance. of course in establishing a water-route. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD, 191, 
 
 The committee are aware, of course, of the fact that in the clearing 
 up of the country the water-supply is being constantly diminished, and 
 ■ in establishing a route which shall relieve the necessities of the country" 
 for ages to come it i§ important that that route should be chosen which 
 shall and can always supply this very essential element. We say our 
 route h;is the advantage in that pre-eminently. There is no other point 
 in the State of New York on which so much water can be thrown as 
 upon the summit-level of this canal in the vicinity of Borne, There, we 
 have the Mohawk River, which comes down to Rome to one end of this 
 summit- level ; we have Wood Creek and Fish Creek, which is a large 
 stream with a supply of 8,000 cubic feet per minute ; we have the Black 
 River, a very large stream, the waters of which are now brought to 
 Rome by the Black Rive? Canal, the principal use of which is as a feeder 
 of our Erie Canal; and the Chenango Canal, which brings down the 
 waters from the Chenango Hills, and whose, principal use, is also, as a 
 feeder for the Erie Canal. All these sources of supply are, at this 
 moment concentrated upon this level. 
 
 And that is not all. If these sources of supply for any reason should 
 ever prove deficient, then there is the opportunity for storing up the 
 waters of the spring and winter in reservoirs. The head- waters of the 
 Mohawk and of Fish Creek, as well as among the Chenango Hills, 
 furnish large tracts of country substantially valueless in their cost- 
 almost worthless— a rough forest country — where at the minimum of 
 expense reservoirs of any required capacity could be constructed, 
 which would make the supply upon this route perfect for all time to 
 come. 
 
 These are the advantages. There is one other advantage which would 
 be furnished also, and that is the improvement it would furnish to our 
 intercourse with Canada. The richest portion of the territory of Canada 
 is the province of Ontario, which lies just across Lake Ontario. It is 
 the most flourishing and most rapidly developing of those provinces, 
 and with the richest future before it. Formerly the Upper Canadian 
 merchants received nearly all their goods by the way of New York and 
 Oswego, or other ports upon Lake Ontario, and their produce found its 
 way to market across the State of New York. Now they have diverted 
 that very largely to the route of the Saint Lawrence River ; but with this 
 improvement we could again attract to our territory the trade of this 
 flourishing country, nqt only enriching the people of the State of New 
 York, across whose, territory it would/ pas's, but restoring our commerr 
 cial marine by the business it w.puld ' furnish to the ships entering and 
 leaving the port of New York. 
 
 The question may be asked, " Why does not, the State of New York 
 do this work ; why caJJ. upon the. General Government to dp it t.' Thfi 
 State of New York does not call upon the General Governm/ent to do it. 
 It is the West, with its necessities, and the EastJ outside of our own bor- 
 ders, with its. necessities, which calL upon the, General Government for 
 the improvement of this or of some other oneof these routes. 
 
 When the Erie Canal was ( first constructed the freight that moved 
 upon its waters was alrnost exclusively the product of the, State of New 
 Yprk. in 1837, twelve years after, western production had fett the stimu- 
 lus of the Erie Canal ; the amount of produce coming into existence outside 
 the borders of our own State which reached Albany by the Erie and Os- 
 wego Canal was only one-sixth of the whole volume so reaching it; 
 that is to say, the stuff which reached Albany by the Oswego and Erie 
 Canal at that time, five-sixths of it was the product of the State of 
 New York and only one-sixth of it the product of foreign territory. 
 
192 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Of course, then, it was New York which was ^f^J^^ 
 ence of these routes ; but if you will look at our last canahau ditor s re- 
 port you will find, so' far has this been changed, that |«* ^ °y ™£ 
 twelfth of the freight which reached Albany by the Oswego and Jine 
 Can" was tne product of the State of New York <^*"£™fU« 
 of it was the product of other States, assisted on its way to market by 
 the former expenditures of our State. And it is because _ lt i s the c oun^ 
 try, a D d not our State alone, which is to be benefited by the making of 
 these routes of navigation, that the country have a right to call upon 
 the Congress of the United States to make the expenditure necessary 
 for it from the National Treasury, and not from the treasury of any 
 
 State. 
 
 Mr! Fort. I am requested, Mr. Churchill, to call your attention to a 
 fact which has been stated in private conversation ; that these reser- 
 voirs being built, these streams, many of them, have deep ravines, 
 which would be of benefit. 
 
 Mr. Churchill. That is true. Any one who has ever been fishing 
 up in the north woods will know what endless opportunity there is for 
 the construction of reservoirs on the head-waters of the Black Eiver, 
 the Mohawk, and others, and especially in ravines, where the land is 
 almost valueless, and where, at the least possibility of expense, such a 
 work could be constructed. 
 
 Mr. Fort. Would it not be well for you to add a word about the im- 
 provements going on in our harbor ? 
 
 Mr. Churchill. Perhaps I should say one word with regard to our 
 own harbor and our facilities for doing business. 
 
 Our present mills grind about 5,000,000 bushels of western wheat per 
 annum. Our elevators have a capacity of elevating 600,000 bushels a 
 day, and of discharging at the same time 600,000 bushels. In other 
 words, they have a capacity of movement of 1,200,000 bushels a day— 
 one-half in elevating, and the other half in discharging on board of 
 canal-boats. 
 
 A copy of our harbor-map has been put into the hands of the clerk of 
 your committee. 
 
 We have in our present harbor, between the lower bridge and th& 
 mouth of the river, about three miles of dockage. 
 
 The General Government is constructing an outside pier which will 
 add about one hundred acres of deep water to our present harbor-room. 
 About 2,600 feet, I think, ,of the pier has been constructed. The entire 
 pier will be about 6,000 feet long. Nearly one-half of its length has 
 been completed. When this harbor shall be finished, with docks and 
 slips, it will add about four miles more to our wharfage, considerably 
 more than doubling the present facilities of our harbor. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. How do the waters of the Black Eiver descend to the 
 Mohawk 1 
 
 Mr. Churchill. From Lyons Falls, upon the Black Eiver, the Black 
 Eiver Canal runs through Booneville with a continuous descent to Borne, 
 where it enters the Erie Canal. The main use of that canal is as a 
 feeder to the Erie Canal, and it takes whatever of the waters of the 
 Black Eiver are required for the purposes of navigation of the Eome 
 level from the Black Eiver. 
 
 There is at present a single reservoir upon the head- waters of the 
 Black Eiver above that point over fifteen miles long. It is an artificial 
 lake over fifteen miles long, the waters of which can be used for this 
 purpose. 
 
 The upper waters of the Black Eiver are largely fed from ponds or 
 
v TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 193 
 
 lakes in very considerable numbers, which can easily be made reser- 
 voirs, any one of them, at no expense, or substantially no expense, for 
 "land damages, to increase the flow of water through the Black Eiver 
 Canal on to this level. 
 Adjourned. 
 
 Buffalo, New Yoke, 
 
 Friday, September 19, 1873. 
 
 Mr. Lewis, of the New York State senate. Mr. Chairman : We have 
 invited some of the commercial men of our city to meet you to make 
 some statements touching the question which you are here to investi- 
 gate. They have not prepared themselves at all elaborately, and, in 
 fact, I think have made no preparation particularly, but they are men 
 of large experience, who have been engaged in the transportation busi- 
 ness for a number of years, and will make some statements to you, and 
 will be glad to answer any questions that the committee may desire to 
 put to them. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee are not advised upon what points 
 they desire to address us, and, consequently, the gentlemen will make 
 such statements as they may please. 
 
 George S. Hazard. Mr. Chairman.* T did not expect to say anything 
 to-night really, and the lot seems to have been cast upon me to open 
 this debate. If I thought you expected any fine-spun arguments, I 
 should go to my seat at once. 
 
 I suppose you come here for plain matter-of-fact, aad to get facts from 
 practical men on this great subject of cheap transportation, a problem 
 which does not seem to have been solved entirely only in the minds of 
 some who have some particular hobby to ride. Some think it is by rail 
 and others by water, and there may be those who think it can be done 
 by balloon or some aerial way. But, sir, I believe we have the means 
 of reducing the prices of transportation within our own-grasp. I believe 
 that Senator Conkling, in his remarks in Canada the other day, took the 
 right ground, that this country is determined, and it should be the 
 policy, to not only keep the trade within her own limits, but to grasp 
 it all, or as much as she can, by a fair competition. 
 
 I would not disparage railroad transportation. Bailroads have accom- 
 plished an infinite amount of good, and they are necessary in the econ- 
 omy of transportation and cannot be dispensed with ; but while they are 
 necessary, water is also necessary, and, in my opinion, the cheapest 
 mode of transportation that can possibly be had. 
 
 We have a great line of communication here by lakes in connection 
 with the Erie Canal. I need not go back to the history of the Erie 
 Canal, as you are all aware that it was the first means adopted in 
 this country really for the cheapening of transportation. It re- 
 duced the transportation of a barrel of flour or a ton of merchandise, 
 between Albany and Buffalo, from $70 to $7 a ton. It has been con- 
 stantly reducing the price of transportation ever since it was created. 
 It is the- great regulator of transportation in this part of the country. 
 
 The inauguration of the Erie Canal was a great event in the country. 
 The boats then used were of small capacity. I think they carried but 
 175 tons or 150 tons ■ perhaps about 2,500 bushels of wheat was all 
 they carried in a canal 40 feet by 4. The canal was, as you are aware, 
 increased to 70 feet. I think there was a.previous increase of the size 
 of the canal, if I am not mistaken, but the last increase in size was 70 
 13 T s 
 
194 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 feet by 7, although the canal has never been made the full extent that 
 it was designed, 70 feet by 7. It is really only 70 feet by to, or a little 
 over 6, admitting a boat of about 240 tons. 
 
 What we want now, is to have a canal that has three or tour times 
 the capacitv of the present canal. The present canal's capacity is really 
 for down tonnage, not over 3,000,000 tons for the season of 210 days. 
 Perhaps the season of navigation would not be over 200 days, and some 
 years it is only about 180. The average, probably, would not be over 
 200 or 205. The tonnage of down freight cannot exceed over 3,200,000 
 tons, from the fact that the locks will only pass a given number of boats 
 during the twenty-four hours, and that is about 200 boats in the twenty- 
 four hours to both locks, which will give, during the season of navigation, 
 about 3,200,000 tons. This was the report of the constitutional conven- 
 tion committee in 1867. That gives 3,200,000 tons during the season of 
 205 days, as I said. 
 
 Now the question comes, at what rate can the owners of boats trans- 
 port property upon the canal with its present class of boats? There are 
 points below" which they cannot go, and we may say that that would be 
 about $2.75 to $3 a ton, to say nothing of the tolls that go to the State. 
 That would probably be the least that any capitalist could build boats 
 and place them upon this canal for, with the prospect of getting a fair 
 remuneration for the amount of his investment. Now while boats get 
 sometimes twice that for carrying property through this canal, that is 
 simply a matter of supply and demand, but when it comes to a doll 
 season the prices of transportation are reduced very materially. They 
 go down to the very lowest point that boats can carry. As has been • 
 shown this season, boats have been carrying wheat from here to New 
 York for 7 cents a bushel, when, according to the rate that I propose and 
 that I have mentioned, $2.75 or $3 a ton would be 9 cents a bushel. 
 But boats have been carrying wheat, as I say, for 7 cents a bushels over 
 tolls, which is not a living rate. They cannot carry it for that. 
 
 Now the question arises, how are we going to provide ways and means to 
 cheapen this transpor tionf The present class of boats cannot carry freight 
 for any less than they are carrying it now. The class of boats of this size 
 must have a fair remuneration for their tonnage for the freight from 
 here to New York, and unless the canal is enlarged and the boats en- 
 larged the prices must remain as they are. Therefore the solution of 
 that question will come to an enlargement of this canal, and to an en- 
 largement of locks sufficient to accommodate a boat of 600 or 650 tons. 
 If that should be done I believe that boats can carry wheat from here 
 to New York at 5 cents a bushel instead of 9 cents, and make more money 
 than the present class of boats can at 9 cents. If the canal was enlarged 
 steamers of 600 or 650 tons would be placed upon it, which would carry, 
 instead of, as the present class of boats now carry, 8,000, from 20,000 to 
 25,000 bushels of wheat. They would make their trip in six days from 
 here to New York. The present class of boats require twelve, which 
 would be about as short a trip as they could make, and oftentimes four- 
 teen and sixteen. 
 
 Therefore a large boat with the enlarged canal would be able to make 
 two trips to one of the present class, and would carry four times— yes, 
 six times— the quantity that the present class of boats can carry. The 
 same principle would rule as with the large class of canal-boats that 
 exists on the lake, and with ocean vessels, that the larger the vessels 
 the cheaper the freight ; the more they can carry, of course the cheaper 
 transportation becomes. Our lake craft has been increasing in size for 
 the last fifteen or twenty years. Twenty-five years ago the largest lake 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 195 
 
 craft carried only 8,000 bushels, or, at the very outside, 10,000 bushels 
 of corn or wheat. Now we have vessels carrying 70,000 bushels, and 
 the size of this class of vessels is limited entirely by the depth of water 
 at certain parts of the lakes. For instance, over the Saint Glair Flats 
 are spots where there is only about 13 feet of water, and our vessels 
 just rub and go over there; and then, again, at the mouth of the Detroit 
 Eiver is another shallow place of 13 feet, called the Lime Kilns. There 
 are vessels dragged frequently, and all they can carry is 13 or 13J feet 
 of water. Sometimes the wind is down the lake and depresses the 
 water at that end of the lake, and then the vessels have to wait before 
 they can get over those obstructions. If those obstructions were re- 
 moved our vessels would be able to increase their tonnage about 200 
 tons for every foot of water that could be deepened at those points. 
 Consequently transportation would be cheapened in proportion. A ves- 
 sel that can carry 2,000 tons can certainly bring freight cheaper than 
 one that can carry only 1,000, because, although the investment is 
 larger, still the expense of handling and of running the vessel is not in 
 proportion to the remuneration for her freight. 
 
 I have a paper here which I would like. to read in this connection, 
 and which was . handed to me by a friend, he being a little too modest 
 himself to write : 
 
 Buffalo, September 19, 1873. 
 
 To the honorable the Committee of the Senate 
 
 of the United States on Routes of Transportation : 
 
 In furtherance of the object for which your committee is constituted, 
 the following is respectfully submitted : 
 
 Vessels engaged in the commerce of Lakes Michigan, Huron, and 
 Erie are constructed with reference to the limit upon their draught of 
 water in crossing Saint Clair Flats, by shallowness of water at the up- 
 per and lower ends of Lake Saint Clair, by obstructions at what are 
 known as the " Limekilns," in Detroit Eiver, and also at the mouth of 
 Detroit Eiver off Bar Point. 
 
 An examination of the charts will show that there is abundance of 
 water at all other points from the foot of Lake Michigan to the foot of 
 Lake Erie. 
 
 The water upon Saint Clair Flats the present season is deeper by 15 
 to 18 inches than it was last season, being now 14 J feet ; it is about 15 
 feet deep over the "Limekilns," and at Bar Point it is from 17 to 18 feet 
 deep. 
 
 The draught of water permitted at the places named is the standard 
 adopted for dredging out the principal harbors upon the lakes. 
 
 With the present approved models for lake carrying-craft, and their 
 dimensions, say from 220 to 240 feet keel and 38 feet beam, and with a 
 depth of hold corresponding to such increased depth of water as may 
 be obtained, the carrying capacity of the vessel will be increased at 
 least 200 tons for every additional foot of water. 
 
 There are no formidable obstacles iu the way of obtaining at least 5 
 or more feet additional depth, of water at the places named. The cost 
 would be comparatively small, the deepening of the flats and of Lake 
 Saint Clair, where needed, being a matter of dredging soft mud; the 
 "Limekilns," a rock excavation of less than a quarter of a mile in ex- 
 tent; and off Bar Point, the removal of bowlders and sunken wrecks, 
 (if any,) and dredging a channel -through gravel to deep water. The 
 advantages resulting in the interest of cheap transportation would be 
 very great. 
 
196 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 The increase of depth of water at the places named would be fol- 
 lowed, as a matter of course, at once by a corresponding increase of 
 depth of water at the principal harbors on the lakes, and more or less 
 extension of the piers to deeper water would be necessary at most of 
 
 It is thought that no artificial harbors for safety would be required 
 growing out of the proposed increase in depth of water, the present 
 natural harbors, and the artificial one now about being constructed by 
 the United States Government on Lake Huron, being all-sufficient, so 
 far as respects draught of water. 
 
 The time of your committee will not be taken up with any elaborate 
 argument in support of this scheme, it being apparent it would at once 
 lead to a decrease in cost of transportation, utilize to an extent quite 
 within reasonable reach the most important natural water-channel in 
 the country, and that channel a highway, the rates of transportation 
 over which are regulated by the laws of supply and demand, out of the 
 reach of monopoly, and hence a healthy and most powerful conservator. 
 
 1 believe that the solution of the whole question of cheap transporta- 
 tion is the enlargement of the Erie Canal, whether it is to be done by 
 State aid or by the Government aid, and I do not know any more wor- 
 thy object, if the Government is to spend money in this way, than the 
 Brie Canal. The tonnage of the Erie Canal is strictly national in its 
 character. Nine- tenths of it is the product of other States than the 
 State of New York. I believe last year, if I can recollect figures, that 
 the down tonnage of the Erie Canal, the proportion from other States, 
 was two million four hundred-odd thousand tons, while the tonnage of the 
 State of New York was only a little over 200,000 tons ; a little less than 
 10 per cent. So you see that the State of New York, so far as the use 
 of the Erie Canal is concerned to them in transporting their property, 
 is not very seriously interested. It is the avenue of a great commerce, 
 it is true, and her people are benefited by it very much undoubtedly in 
 the transportation, and it would be a very good thing for the people of 
 the State of New York, undoubtedly, to have this canal enlarged, but 
 how much better it would be for the people of other States, large groups 
 of States, not only to the west of it, who depend upon getting their 
 property to market at cheap rates, and for the people who live at the 
 other end — at the East, who want cheap food — how important it is for 
 them, more so than for the State of New York, because the products of 
 the State of New York have to come in competition with the low-priced 
 products of the West. Consequently, the people of the State of New 
 York are not benefited so much by the enlargement of this canal. It 
 is more for the people who live in other States. It is for the purpose of 
 extending the area of production that this cheap transportation should 
 be established. It is for extending the area of production to those great 
 and extensive lands at the West, those vast prairies, because there is a 
 limit which you cannot go beyond. You cannot bring corn beyond a 
 certain limit unless you bring it a cheap rate. It does not require a 
 great many hundred miles of transportation to use up a hundred bush- 
 els of corn. 
 
 And then you may go so far beyond the point of transportation that 
 the farmer will prefer to burn his corn to giving ten bushels for getting 
 one to market. In fact, a friend of mine observed to-night, he thought 
 that the transportation ought to be cheap enough to enable the farmers 
 certainly to save seed enough out of what they raise to plant the next 
 year. I think so too. I think he ought to have a little more than that. 
 
 The Erie Canal certainly has exerted a most beneficial influence. The 
 large cities at the West owe their prosperity, and I may say almost their 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 197 
 
 existence, to the Erie Canal, because it was built, and they reaped the 
 benefit of it, before railroads were ever invented. The cities of Cleve- 
 land, Toledo, Detroit, and others, I may say Chicago, and many others 
 that I could mention who are now the glory of this country, were started 
 by it, and those great prairies at the West, the States of Ohio, Michigan, 
 Indiana, and Illinois, were settled by emigrants passing through the 
 Erie Canal. It has been the great regulator and conservator of trans- 
 portation, and is now. Where would we be if we had no Erie Canal ? 
 We would be in the same condition that they are out West, where it 
 costs 18 to 20 cents to transport a bushel of wheat from the banks of the 
 Mississippi to Chicago or Milwaukee. 
 
 If the same rate could be obtained for transporting wheat from Buf- 
 falo to New York, the price would be 50 cents a bushel. Now it is 12 ; 
 it has been 10 all the season. 
 
 If we can enlarge this canal we can reduce it to 5 cents, and every- 
 thing else will have to come to the same scale, not only wheat and corn, 
 but lumber, the product of our mining districts — the provision trans- 
 ported would be done proportionately cheap. 
 
 Gentlemen, I thank you for the time you have given me, and I will 
 now give some one else an opportunity to speak. 
 
 Bemarlcs of E. A. Prosser, of Buffalo. 
 
 Mr. Chairman, nothing surely need be said about the capacity of the 
 waters of the West to bring all the property they have to sell here 
 more cheaply than by any other process. That is patent, and needs no 
 comment. So it is provided for up to this point amply, and not, I take 
 it, to be disturbed by the land-transportation. 
 
 About all of the country north of the Ohio Eiver may conveniently get 
 their surplus to the lakes and by water to this place cheaper, than by 
 any other process. There has been considerable complaint, for many 
 years wide-spread in the Western States, of excessive charges for trans- 
 portation from here to the sea-board ; the rate has ranged for the last few 
 years since the large deduction in the tolls of our State, an average, I 
 think — although I have been out of the trade for years — of about 13 
 cents a bushel from here to New York, and with this rate these com- 
 plaints have arisen and still exist. Can the rail benefit, can the rail re- 
 duce it, is the first inquiry, because, sir, I take it we are to have within 
 a very brief period such ample facilities by rail as to accommodate all 
 of the trade, if it can do it cheap enough upon the completion, in addi- 
 tion to what we have now, of the double freight-track of the New York 
 Central Railroad. So soon as that shall be completed and properly 
 stocked, its capacity will be largely in excess of our canal as it is, which, 
 with the other railroad facilities as they now are, would certainly be 
 quite sufficient for some time to come. 
 
 But can the rail reduce the rate below 13 cents a bushel, something 
 less than 1 cent a ton a mile, and have it remunerative ? If it can, it 
 has to do something that has never been done, as I think, on the globe. 
 I hope it may, for if it can, then we are pretty well provided for. Yet I 
 think that it cannot be done profitably, and hence will not be done. If 
 the rate is to be less in the future than in the past, it must be by water 
 from here to New York. If it is material at all that the export trade of 
 the States shall be kept within the States, and surely it is proper that 
 we should have such a national feeling as that— I think it is wide-spread 
 —if it be so, we cannot prepare ourselves too soon to meet the ability of 
 Montreal in the near future. If they are to complete the works which 
 they have commenced, as I understand they contemplate, completing 
 
198 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 them to a draught of 12 feet of water, and locks admitting vessels 40 
 feet beam bv 250, if anybody wants to build so large, they will be able 
 to reach Montreal at a very low cost additional to what it must cost us 
 •to reach Buffalo, with such moderate tolls as has been the practice upon 
 the Canadian canals ; possibly so low that it will be out of our reach; 
 at any rate so low that we had better prepare to do our best, and that 
 speedily. 
 
 Those more conversant than I am with what the largest class vessels, 
 steamers more particularly, may do upon these lakes, and as to their 
 ability to transport cheaply from Chicago here, have informed me within 
 a few days that they really believed the business might be done at an 
 average of 5 cents a bushel, of course fluctuating, sometimes less, some- 
 times more, from Chicago here by the largest-sized steamers. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that statement made by the steamboat men? 
 
 Mr. Prosser. Yes, sir ; owners of boats here. Well, sir, if that can 
 be done, the little addition of toll to do it will not add very largely to 5 
 or 6 cents to deliver it at Montreal, for with a good canal navigation of 
 only about sixty miles, she will make the distance from here to Montreal 
 certainly quite within three days, and will not add many cents to the 5 
 to get here. It is too apparent to discuss. It is self-evident. With 
 like capacity she could not have the same draught of water, but she has 
 such ample beam and length as to very conveniently carry certainly 
 50,000 bushels of grain. 
 
 Now, if, as I remarked before, it is desirable to keep the export trade 
 of this country within the States, and from the city of New York, we 
 must go from here to the city of New York for 4 or 5 cents a bushel, to 
 be able to put the grain on a steamer at that port as cheaply as it. can 
 be put on board of a steamer at Montreal when that route is completed. 
 I do not believe it can be done by the rail. I think it is such a very low 
 price that it will be generally conceded by those better conversant than 
 I am with railway affairs latterly, that it cannot be done by the rail. 
 Then, if it is to be done within the States, it has to be done by water. 
 Can it be by water 1 For quite a number of years I have been conver- 
 sant with the transportation business somewhat, considerably so for 
 thirty years — but have been out of it for a few years — and with the 
 canals of our State and the Hudson river somewhat, and a little upon 
 the lakes, and have done what I could several years ago — enough to 
 satisfy myself, and, possibly, some others, that with our canal in its 
 present condition, it must ever be as slow as it is now. Not but what 
 it is practicable to run steamers upon it ; there is no mechanical diffi- 
 culty, but it is financial difficulty. They will not pay. I constructed a 
 couple of propellers some twelve years ago, and put in power enough, 
 run them alone first, found they did not pay, got rid of some little im- 
 perfections in them, and hitched on two or three boats and towed them 
 for a couple of years ; but found it so full of difficulties that I came to 
 the conclusion the business would never be done in that way. And in 
 that way it was slow, a little faster perhaps than horse power, reaching 
 New York in perhaps twelve days from here with a tow of boats, yet 
 quite too slow for the times. I came to the conclusion that the business 
 would never be done by tows of boats with any sort of power, I do not 
 care what the power is ; it is too full of difficulties. 
 
 But I found there was no trouble whatever, as has been proclaimed 
 widespread all over the country, of wash of the banks, needing some 
 new contrivance to prevent it, as it was thought in early days before 
 railways, that some contrivance was necessary to prevent the wheels 
 slipping on the rail ; but it was imaginary. We found that there was 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 199 
 
 ao difficulty. There is no difficulty about the wash of the banks ; no 
 sort of trouble in running canal boats by steam, but they do not pay. 
 
 Some twenty years ago, upon the Delaware and Earitan Canal, in the 
 State of New Jersey, constructed just about the size of the Erie, and 
 with locks only about 100 feet long, they lengthened them, enlarged 
 them, and completed the work in one winter, and made them 24 feet beam 
 and 220 feet in length, admitting steamers to run through there between 
 New York and Philadelphia, varying in size from 24 feet beam and 100 
 keel up to, in one or two cases, 200 keel, and they found no practi- 
 cal difficulty in navigation. I think they are running through 
 that canal now of dimensions as large as 24 feet beam and 160 or 180 
 feet in length to Baltimore. That demonstrated there that a size which 
 I spoke of was entirely practicable in that canal of about the dimensions 
 of ours ; so through the Welland Canal they have had much experience 
 with a. beam of 26 feet and a bottom of about 60 feet, and find no 
 practicable difficulty with that breadth of beam and as much length as 
 the locks will permit. So that, with the experience around us, 1 have 
 come to the conclusion that it is entirely practicable, with suitable locks 
 on the Erie Canal, to run steamers with about 24 feet beam and possibly 
 as long as 200 feet. Within those dimensions, properly constructed 
 boats of iron frames and deck, perhaps, and I rather think plank or 
 wood instead of iron for canal purposes, very staunch, tolerably modeled, 
 will displace 800 tons of water in drawing 6 feet, and may be very strong 
 and not weigh more than 200 tons themselves, thus enabling the boat 
 to carry 600 tons ; quite as much as that. 
 
 The first hundred miles from here to Eochester the canal is much 
 larger. I may say that it is a very fair steamer navigation for vessels of 
 that size. They can make it in twenty-four hours with tolerable ease. 
 The next two hundred and fifty miles to Troy is narrower; the progress 
 would be slow ; I think perhaps about two and one-half miles an hour, 
 and we then come to the Hudson Eiver, and such steamers ought to 
 have, at least, an eight, and possibly ten mile speed on that river, and 
 we shall be able to reach New York with very slow speed from Eochester 
 to Troy, in about six days with about 600 tons. 
 
 My judgment is, that boats of that size properly constructed, which 
 would be very durable, will carry property at a cost not exceeding $1 
 per ton from here to New York. A few cents per ton would afford a 
 liberal return for the investment, so that, if I am right in this, and I 
 am confirmed in it the more from consulting with gentlemen in New 
 York who have run steamers between New York and Philadelphia for 
 many years, who quite agree with me that such steamers may be run 
 between here and New York for a dollar a ton cost, with moderate car- 
 goes upward, which would generally be of coal. If that can' be done, 
 we bring the price down to about 4 cents a bushel, from here to New 
 York, to which must be added whatever the State charge is. My judg- 
 ment is that that ought not to be more than 1 cent a bushel, making 
 about 5 cents. 
 
 We can then, perhaps, transfer our cargoes on to the vessels in New 
 York as cheaply as they do at Montreal, or on the other route when 
 they shall have finished their work, and I think not any cheaper ; New 
 York having considerable advantage in her harbor being open all the 
 year, and the advantage of having the trade in the main now, may con- 
 tinue to enjoy the supremacy of it under such circumstances. - 
 
 I do not know of any other method by which I think she can retain a 
 moiety of the foreign trade long after this northern route shall have 
 been completed as it is proposed. I do not believe it can be done. 
 
200 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 I do not care to appear here as advocating the policy of Congress 
 making appropriations broadcast over this country for the purpose of 
 cheapening transportation generally ; but I have to remark that if they 
 are to do it, if it is to be done, my judgment is there is no other place 
 within the United States where it can be accomplished with so little 
 money. I am not unmindful that my views on this subject differ wide- 
 ly with many in the room ; perhaps a majority of our own citizens; dif- 
 fer with some because, perhaps, their judgment is warped a little by the 
 property they own; differ from some in other localities, where, perhaps, 
 they perceive reasons why freights ought not to be cheap from here to 
 the ocean. I think so, My desire is that the property shall go as cheap 
 as it can be got from here to the sea-board, within this State, by what- 
 ever means. If the rail is the cheaper, by all means let us have it. 
 Private enterprise will take care of that. I judge that there is no occa- 
 sion whatever for Congress making any appropriation for a railway 
 from here to the city of New Tork. As 1 before remarked, I think that 
 all the public need ask for a long time to come, so far as facilities in 
 transportation by rail is concerned, they are to have quite soon. 
 
 Many are of the opinion that boats so large as I have mentioned can- 
 not conveniently run in our canal. Of course they could run more con- 
 veniently in wider water, and cheaper if it were deeper. It would not 
 be a very expensive matter to add one foot of water. More than that 
 would cost a good deal of money. Our locks are constructed to have 
 8 feet of water in them, and there is 7 in the channel, and the canal 
 itself is susceptible, most of it, of carrying about a foot more water. 
 Many levels can do it without any alterations or any expenditure, and 
 some would require either a little excavation from the bottom of the 
 canal or a little addition to the banks. So that, if the present depth is 
 not sufficient to enable us, with the boats which I have indicated, to 
 transport as cheaply as they can upon the northern route when that is 
 completed, an additional foot of water can be obtained quite cheaply, 
 adding something over a hundred tons to the cargo, and cheapening a 
 little further the cost of transportation. 
 
 ) The cost of such a work has been very carefully estimated by our 
 State engineer years ago, under a joint resolution of the legislature of 
 this State. They had a year to make the estimates, and they can 
 easily be furnished you. The subject matter was gone over again very 
 thoroughly in 1867, in the constitutional convention, of which I had the 
 honor of being a member, and was upon the committee who had charge 
 of the subject. We had before us many eminent engineers, among them 
 Mr. McAlpin, whom, perhaps, you may have met in your travels, and 
 went very fully into their calculations after getting them, and we came 
 to -the conclusion that about $8,000,000 would make the necessary alter- 
 ations for boats such as I have indicated to run conveniently upon the 
 canal from here to Albany, not only, but upon the Oswego canal, and a 
 little short one that we have leading up into our small lakes, Cayuga 
 and Seneca. And some considerably less than this would enable the 
 boats to run ; but they would not be so well accommodated as they 
 ought to be ; for the channel has the capacity exactly as it is, without a 
 particle of widening anywhere, to float eastern boats drawing 6 feet 
 of water, and the ascending boats 4J. 
 
 But I suppose if Congress should make any appropriations whatever 
 for internal improvements, and should embrace this work as one of them, 
 if this committee should make such a recommendation, that a sum as 
 large as $8,000,000 or $10,000,000 might be appropriated for the work. 
 
 Thanking you, gentlemen, for your kind attention, I will not add any- 
 thing further to my remarks. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 201 
 
 Mr. Hazard. I should like to make one explanation in regard to this 
 paper which I read. It was handed me by a gentleman who represents 
 a very large vessel-interest here himself, and it is the opinion of a large 
 body Of gentlemen who are interested in vessels to a very great extent, 
 not only here but in other places, that these improvements in the lakes, 
 the deepening of the channel, &c, should be made, and the results 
 would be accomplished as stated in that paper. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Have you sufficient practical experience in the navi- 
 gation of the lakes to tell us the causes of the rapid changes in the rat,es 
 of freight in the lake-ports ? 
 
 Mr. Hazard. That depends on the supply and demand, as on the 
 ocean. We see frequently steamers from New York get sixpence a 
 bushel for corn ; then in a week or two they get eightpence, and very 
 soon tenpence, and soon after twelvepence, which is the price now, if I 
 am not mistaken. It depends entirely on the pressure of freight offer- 
 ing from the port to their places of destination. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Do not these high rates of freight usually follow the 
 harvest ? 
 
 Mr. Hazard. Yes, sir ; certainly they do. In a very light harvest 
 there would not be that pressure of freight offering, and they would be 
 comparatively low ; and then, again, sometimes there will be two or 
 three years of low prices. Then vessels go out of existence — vessels 
 are wrecked — very few vessels are built ; there becomes a scarcity of 
 vessels, and prices depend upon the supply and demand, not only of 
 the tonnage to be moved, but upon the supply of vessels. If there is a 
 scarcity of vessels and plenty of freight, of course the freights are ad- 
 vanced at once. It is only a few years since grain was carried from 
 Chicago to Buffalo for 3 cents a bushel ; wheat, for 3 cents a bushel. 
 In fact, I have known corn brought here for 2J cents, and vessel-owners 
 very glad to get that price sooner than have the vessels lie still. Then 
 we have had it 20 cents a bushel ; 15 cents, I believe, the price is now 
 for wheat from Chicago to Buffalo. That is a very high rate. Last 
 year it was about 15. The year before it was still less — about 6, if I 
 recollect right. I can give you tables at another time ; I do not recol- 
 lect the years now. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Would it be possible in any way to fix, by concert 
 among the owners of vessels, a maximum and a minimum ¥ 
 
 Mr. Hazard. I do not think it would, any more than you could fix it 
 upon the ocean. It would depend entirely on the supply and demand. 
 It is a question of that exclusively. 
 
 Mr. ConklinGt, (to Mr. Prosser.) What do you count the advantage 
 of New York over Montreal, in the matter of insurance ? 
 
 Mr. Prosser. I was greatly surprised, when I had occasion to look 
 into the matter a few years ago, to find the Montreal rates as low as 
 New York almost all the season. 
 
 Mr. Conexing. In the spring and fall ? 
 
 Mr. Prosser. Quite as low in the spring ; a little higher in the fall — 
 late. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. The average about the same ? 
 
 Mr. Prosser. About the same at that time ; it was some years ago. 
 I do not know how it is now. 
 
 Remarks of Mr. Alberger, of Buffalo. 
 
 Mr. Chairman and gentlemen: I very fully indorse the statements 
 made so elaborately by the gentleman in Oswego yesterday, Mr. Chur- 
 chill, in regard to what is called the Long Level. 
 
202 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 There has occasionally been difficulty in the supply of water, but the 
 State has made ample provision lately, and a new reservoir has been 
 constructed and brought into use which, in the judgment of the canal 
 authorities, now affords sufficient water. There is also, in addition, a 
 very large living stream of water, which exertions have been made 
 some years since to bring into use, called the Fish Creek feeder, if it was 
 made a feeder. Upon that level there would be no question of supply. 
 I propose generally to deal in facts and figures, and had I supposed that 
 question would have been asked to-night I could have given exactly, 
 from the engineer's data, the precise amount of feet per minute. It is 
 a very large amount. I think it is 8,000 cubic feet per minute that can 
 be discharged from that at all times. 
 
 I never heard the question raised, in my experience, in regard to the 
 Jordan Level not being able to furnish a sufficient supply there, until 
 yesterday in Oswego. To be sure, in 1866, 1 think, when we had a light 
 supply of water throughout the State, there was some little difficulty 
 there as well as upon the Long Level. After, that, steps were taken im- 
 mediately, so that I think since then there has been no difficulty in that 
 direction. Otisco Lake has also been tapped, and from my knowledge 
 of the condition of those lakes, and the country about there, I am well 
 satisfied, and can say so with all confidence to the gentlemen here, that 
 there need be no apprehension of an insufficient supply of water- for the 
 Jordan Level. If the statements are to be relied upon which were made 
 here yesterday as regards the Long Level, I think the gentlemen can be 
 well satisfied. 
 
 Now, while I am upon my feet, I would like to tax this committee just 
 about five minutes. 
 
 The Chairman. Before you leave that point, are there not engineer- 
 ing reports giving the entire amount of water that can be produced in 
 the whole line ? 
 
 Mr. Alberger. I think Mr. Taylor, in his report of 1862-'63, gave us . 
 very full tables. I have the documents in my possession. 
 
 The Chairman. I will not trouble you further on that point, except to 
 say, if you make any written statement to be submitted, I would be very 
 much obliged if you would incorporate that statement. 
 
 Mr. Albergker. I have had some talk with Mr. ffimmo, who pro- 
 poses to ask me some questions, and I will take pains at some future 
 day to present some statistics of interest, I think, to the committee. 
 
 I will say there is one point that I think this committee ought to take 
 into very serious consideration ; that is this : that this Erie Canal is 
 now the controlling element as regards the price of transportation from 
 the Bast to the West ; that she has, until the last three years, carried 
 more tonnage in the 200 days of navigation than tbe Erie and the Ceu- 
 tral Eailroads combined ; that, without the Erie Canal being in an effi- 
 cient working condition, these railroads would be enabled to charge the 
 people of this State and the West just such prices as they pleased ; and 
 that the cheaper, either by the National Government or the people of 
 the State of New York, you reduce the price of transportation upon this 
 controlling line, you must, to a very great extent, control it upon these 
 railroads. This seems to me the great point to be considered in this 
 question — of having a control upon railroads. 
 
 Now it seems to me that it would be on the part of the people of this 
 State suicidal in an extreme degree, or of the people of the West, to per- 
 mit this canal to lose its power and its influence in that respect. 
 
 It is almost impossible to state, in view of the present condition of 
 the country, and of its vast productions that are still to come — I am 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 203 
 
 speaking of the western country — how great and valuable this influence 
 is to you. You can readily see that by none of the routes talked of can 
 this influence be so strongly and so sensibly exercised as by this long 
 and controlling water-route. I think this is a question of very great 
 and serious importance. 
 
 I would-.like to say one word more as regards ship-canal navigation. 
 It is pressed very much upon the people of this State that the best way 
 to secure the commerce of the western country to the people of the 
 State is by the construction of ship-canals. A few days since, coming 
 up the Saint Lawrence, we scarcely saw upon the whole line of which 
 we came by water, a single one of the white- winged messengers of com- 
 merce. Not a single sail-vessel did we see upon the entire route. Now, 
 then, if ship-canals are to be the means by which your property is to be 
 carried so cheaply, why have we not seen it exemplified by this long 
 route of river and ship-canal navigation which we have just passed 
 over ? It is a positive fact, as I am assured by gentlemen who are well 
 versed in this matter, that of all the sail-vessels who take their cargoes 
 on in the Western States that pass through the Welland Canal, 95 per 
 cent, transfer them into barges, and the barges are towed down to Mon- 
 treal and there transferred to larger vessels, to find the way to European 
 ports. Is not this the best possible argument to show that canal navi- 
 gation is a better and a cheaper one, and better adapted to the wants of 
 the people, than this proposed ship-canal navigation ? There are many 
 reasons why this is so. In the first place, over at the Welland Canal, 
 which is less than thirty miles long, it takes over thirty hours to get a 
 vessel through, and that must be under pretty favorable conditions. 
 You saw, yourself, in coming up through those locks, that with an ordi- 
 nary wind it was almost impossible to get a steamer through with any 
 due regard to economy -of speed, and this holds in a much stronger 
 sense with sail-vessels. I had hoped that you might be abJe to visit the 
 Welland Canal and see the difficulties which attend the passage of a 
 sail-vessel through those locks and the canal. They cannot well be 
 steered ; they do not have the steerage power in shallow water. The 
 propellers, of course, get through more readily. You cannot well judge 
 of the economy and rapidity with which the business can be done by 
 witnessing the transit of a propeller. 
 
 There are some other questions which bear, but I must call your at- 
 tention to one more, and with that I shall leave the subject, and. that is 
 in investigating the value of the different routes you want to take into 
 consideration how much of return cargoes do these different channels 
 have. In Oswego I learned that no coal came by canal. It was all 
 brought by rail, consequently the canal-boats doing business there lost 
 that great element of return cargoes which this port possesses — a very 
 large proportion of the coal. Had I expected to address this commit- 
 tee I should have known that proportion'. It comes not only by canal, 
 but a considerable ways by the Hudson Eiver. Every pound of freight 
 brought by canal on the return cargoes helps to pay the expense of the 
 boat and cheapen the cost of transportation. . I consider this a question 
 of very great importance, which ought to be carefully examined. 
 
 Remarks of Mr. Cyrus Clark, of Buffalo. 
 
 Mr. Chairman : The great products of the West which have 
 been caused by the great tide of emigration and the settlement 
 of the Western States — I could name them, Ohio, Indiana, Illi- 
 nois, Iowa, Nebraska, Minnesota, and Michigan — the products of 
 those States have become immense, and it has been brought about 
 
204 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 in a very few years. Those of us who have lived at an ordinary 
 age of life have seen that country a wilderness. The people of those 
 States begin to study economy by taking their products to market, and 
 they have caused this investigation. I consider that this committee, 
 appointed at the city of Washington, has been caused by the petitions of 
 Western States to bring about something to cheapen transportation. It 
 is wise. It is well that they have called your attention to it, and I under- 
 stand now that you have visited Montreal, Ogdensburgh, and other 
 places on the river, as well as Oswego, and examined all those routes, 
 and allowed all the citizens to bring forward their reasons for their . 
 special routes. 
 
 Now you have honored the city of Buffalo with your presence and 
 asked us to give our reasons why we are here doing business in the way 
 we are engaged in this transportation ; why we are here in Buffalo, and 
 what facilities Buffalo may have. We have taken you through our 
 harbor to-day and showed you the means of discharging vessels. This 
 morning when you arrived here there had, during the night, arrived 
 fifteen vessels with a capacity of 45,000 bushels each. Gentlemen, I 
 assure you those vessels are all discharged, and they will in the morn- 
 ing commence loading the anthracite coal from the State of Pennsylva- 
 nia, and before sunset to-morrow they will leave this port loaded for the 
 West, and in a very few clays, if winds are favorable, they will arrive at 
 your western ports, discharge their cargo, and come again. 
 
 It has been well said here by many, that no transportation by rail 
 can compete with the natural transportation of these lakes. For in- 
 stance, from Chicago to Buffalo is five hundred and thirty miles. No 
 railroad man will tell you they can carry freight — it has never been ac- 
 complished and paid expenses — at less than 1 cent a ton a mile. Now, 
 it is very easy for a school-boy to say what a ton of freight will cost 
 from Chicago to Buffalo, $5.80. It cannot be done any less. Mr. Wins- 
 low, one of the largest and oldest vessel owners on these lakes, said to 
 me as he left the room : " I cannot stay here, but you may say for me 
 that I can make money on my vessels in taking the anthracite coal of 
 Pennsylvania from Buffalo to Chicago for $ 1 a ton, and a return freight 
 of 5 cents a bushel, which is about $1.80 a ton. I can make money, and 
 I will continue to build vessels at those rates." Although freight may 
 be higher now, it is caused by a scarcity of vessels, created by the great 
 demand of iron-ore to be brought from Lake Superior. That canal is to 
 be closed early. There is a great demand for vessels to go there and bring 
 that iron-ore off early, for they are going to shut up there very early, as 
 you all understand. A scarcity of vessels has caused a high rate, and 
 they are making enormous sums of money. Supply and demand is a 
 law of trade. It will be but a very short tiime before Mr. Winslow, and 
 a great many other men of the same class, will build vessels enough to 
 supply these lakes with all the tonnage required, and, to repeat his re- 
 marks, " I can make money at $1 a ton up freight, and $ L.80 down 
 freight." That settles the question in regard to transportation from 
 the West to the lower end of Lake Erie. 
 
 Now let me call your attention, you men representing the West here, 
 to the fact that Buffalo is one great distributing point. The grain, 
 flour, pork, and beef that arrive here does not all go to New York ; it 
 does not all go to Boston ; but here is one grand distributing point. 
 The State of Pennsylvania, with her immense anthracite coal fields, has 
 discovered Buffalo to be the best point for them to reach to strike the 
 water, and they are building roads here. Mr. Packer, who was a candi- 
 date for governor of the State of Pennsylvania, has built a road, and 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 205 
 
 connected it with the Erie, and he is delivering now immense quanti- 
 ties of anthracite coal by the New York, Erie, and also the Central, by 
 the New York Central Railroad, and, as Mr. Alberger remarked a few 
 minutes ago, coal came with the canal. It can be brought here cheaper 
 by rail from the coal mines than to go to the Hudson Eiver. They are 
 sending their coal that way now. It is .arriving here. This coal is what 
 you western men want, you have not got the fuel, your country was a 
 bare prairie, you cultivated it, but you want fuel, and you can exchange 
 your products for this fuel, and the vessels will bring your grain and 
 carry you back your coal, and Buffalo is the best point on the lakes for 
 that purpose. It is proving itself so. There is no theory about it. It 
 is a positive, practical thing. 
 
 Now, to prove what I say in regard to this anthracite coal, I have a 
 little sketch, which has been handed to me this evening, that in 1863 
 the receipts of coal to this town were 130,000 tons ; in 1864, 150,000 
 tons; in 1865, 180,000 tons; in 1866, 200,000 tons; in 1867, 240,000 
 tons; in 1868, 260,000 tons ; in 1869, 228,000 tons ; in 1870, 320,000 tons; 
 in 1871, 350,000 tons ; in 1872, 425,000 tons* and, as the coal has arrived 
 here, to estimate the season through, 600,000 tons this year. 
 
 Vessel men will tell you that, if they are sure of a return freight, 
 they can bring the grain from the West to this port at a much cheaper 
 rate. The secretary of the board of trade has corrected me. These 
 figures are the amount of coal shipped from here by vessels over and 
 above what is consumed here. 
 
 Another thing in regard to this western business. A great deal has 
 been said about the Erie Canal, and very well said. But does it make 
 any difference to you gentlemen of the West when your property arrives 
 in Buffalo, if not met here with a proper sale — and a large amount of 
 your western produce is sold here, distributed through Pennsylvania 
 and all the States, Bochester Mills, Black Bock Mills. Not only that, 
 but this season your corn that you did not burn last winter has come 
 in here in immense quantities, and, unfortunately for you, and still more 
 unfortunately for us who have bought it, it has come here in an unsound 
 condition, liable to heat. It has come here warm in vessels. If it goes 
 on to the canal-boats, the sun shining right down on the top of these 
 flat-bottom boats, has had the effect of heating it to such an extent 
 that very large losses have been made. It has been sold in New York 
 at almost the prices at which it sold in Chicago, in consequence of heat- 
 ing, a thing that nobody can prevent. Well, what is the relief? Bail- 
 roads. Corn arriving here by your vessels, and taken into our elevators 
 and passed through a blowing process that we have, and put upon the 
 cars, is in New York in forty-eight hours, and sold at the top of the 
 market. That shows the advantage of railroads, together with the 
 canals. They co-operate with each other, and railroads are as much 
 benefit to the West as the canal is. 
 
 And what has been the wisdom and what shows itself to be the 
 wisdom of this man Vanderbilt? He sees these things, and, although 
 he has a double track now running from New York to this port to 
 take off this grain liable to heat on canal-boats, yet he is going to 
 double his capacity. He shows wisdom in doing it. It helps the 
 West. They are benefited by that process, and it will add to the 
 value of their property on its arrival at Buffalo. So with the New 
 York and Erie Railroad; they are largely increasing their facilities. 
 You visited the Niagara elevator this morning. Seven hundred thou- 
 sand bushels of that corn I spoke of as being in danger of spoiling 
 if put on canal-boats has gone over the Erie Railroad to New York, 
 
206 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 and brought the top of the market. I tell you what I know, for I 
 have been a large dealer in it myself. Such are the tacts. Buffalo 
 itself has built a railroad connecting the Pennsylvania Central at Empo- 
 rium. She is bringing in that large amount of not only anthracite, but 
 bituminous coal. By that connection with the Pennsylvania Central 
 she can send grain from Buffalo to Philadelphia and New York both. 
 That affects your western people. That shows why Buffalo is of great 
 advantage to you. Besides this road I spoke of, the Buffalo, New York 
 and Philadelphia road, we have the New Tork and Erie road, with its 
 large capacity; we have the Central road as it is, and to have two tracks 
 more ; we have all those advantages and the Erie Canal to boot. 
 
 Now, I ask you, gentlemen, you western men, have you met any place 
 where you can send your produce at a better point than the city of 
 Buffalo'"? 
 
 Mr. Conkling. How much further is it from Buffalo to New Tork by 
 the Pennsylvania road than from Buffalo to. New York by the Erie 
 road? 
 
 Mr. Clark. There is very little difference, I understand. I am not 
 positive. 
 
 A Voice. Thirty-four miles. 
 
 The Chairman. I want to ask you a question about this heat in corn. 
 Do you know, in the case of corn starting from here in the same condi- 
 tion by canal and by railroad, which commands the best price at New 
 York ? 
 
 Mr. Clark, The heating process this year has lasted from the open- 
 ing of navigation up to within two weeks. It is not always so. Last 
 year your corn did not heat ; it matured in the fields — that is, the 1871 
 crop. But your 1872 crop did not mature in the fields, and those who 
 have bought it and taken it to market, where it has gone through the 
 Erie Canal, have lost immensely. 
 
 The Chairman. I have been informed that the purchasers in Few 
 York, without examination, will pay a higher price for corn brought by 
 rail from here than for corn brought by canal. Do you know & 
 there is any truth in it ? 
 
 Mr. Clark. During the season of heating, no other time. I mean 
 during the first three months of this year. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Or of any other year "? 
 
 Mr. Clark. Any other year when the corn comes forward in a bad 
 condition. The crop of 1870 and the crop of 1871 did not heat; but the 
 crop of 1872 has heated enormously, except that shipped by rail, and 
 that has not lost at all. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the effect of the heat of the drying process 
 upon corn? Does it injure it in any way ? I believe you have a drying 
 process here 1 
 
 Mr. Clark. "We have a good many. Corn, in my opinion, never re- 
 turns to its mother goodness. Kiln-dried corn always has a smell to it. 
 I never have had any dried yet but what had a smell to it. But there 
 are some times when after it is kiln-dried it brings pretty near the top 
 of the market; the reduction of shrinkage, in consequence of the taking 
 of that water out of that corn, is a very great loss. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know about what that reduction is in pounds? 
 
 Mr. Clark. From 5 to 10 per cent. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. In measure or weight ? 
 
 Mr. Clark. Both. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Is the reduction in measure and weight about the 
 same ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 207 . 
 
 Mr. Clark. We do not measure at all. Our grain is all handled by 
 weight. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. I know that, sir, but I speak of the bulk it occupies. 
 
 Mr. Clark. The bulk it occupies is probably nearly the same, but the 
 weight is reduced very much. 
 
 The Chairman. What is>the expense of the drying process per bushel 
 usually ? 
 
 Mr. Clark. About 3 cents. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. I should like to ask you what is the price ©f trans- 
 porting coal per ton now to Chicago from here ? 
 
 Mr. Clark. About $1.25 since freights have got up so high, but they 
 take it sometimes for half a dollar. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. How many tons are there in a vessel that carries 
 45,000 bushels ; about 1,300, 1 believe, are there not ? 
 
 Mr. Clark. Yes, sir. They do not usually load their vessels on 
 return freights so heavily as they do on other freight. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Then, a vessel carrying 45,000 bushels eastward, and 
 returning with a load of 1,300 tons in coal, would, if I am correct, re- 
 ceive for the round trip .about $8,000 1 
 
 Mr. Clark. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. What would be the cost of that trip without counting 
 interest ? 
 
 Mr. Clark. I would have to answer you by giving you Mr. Wins- 
 low's statemeut again. He says there is money in that. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Can you suggest any way of preventing this rapid 
 advance in the price of freight beyond a reasonable limit on the lake, 
 except by competition and the building of vessels f 
 
 Mr. Clark. I cannot. What has caused the present scarcity of ves- 
 sels is the great demand to bring forward the ore from Lake Superior. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Would it be possible to organize an association so as 
 to prevent this advance of price 1 
 
 Mr. Clark. No, sir ; it has been tried here. We have had two very 
 large incorporated companies here for transportation, and they both 
 failed. Three, I think, indeed. One does still live. I speak of the 
 Western Transportation Company. We had the Western Transporta- 
 tion Company, the Lake Navigation Company, and the American 
 Transportation Company. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Was not that rather to form minimum prices ? 
 
 Mr. Clark. No, sir ; they went in to make money and get the best 
 price they could. The supply and demand seems to regulate these 
 prices. 
 
 I have one thing more to say, gentlemen, in regard to our city. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Ljet me ask you first one more question. Have you 
 known of any shipment of wheat or of corn produced west of the Mis- 
 sissippi River coming to this port 'f 
 
 Mr. Clark. Very large amounts. We are receiving corn now from 
 Nebraska in large amounts. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Do you know the rates of railroad transportation 1 
 
 Mr. Clark. No, sir ; I do not know anything about that. 1 was once 
 interested in railroad-freight, but I do not know anything about it. 
 
 I want to say one more word in regard to Buffalo, as to the facilities 
 for handling property, in regard to our elevators. We have about thirty 
 elevators. Now, vessels leaving Chicago and Milwaukee, for instance, 
 one leaves on Monday with a fair wind, and another leaves on Tuesday 
 with a fair wind, and so each day in the week. By the course of the 
 winds those seven vessels may all arrive in this port together. Ex- 
 
208 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 perienced navigators will tell you that. Consequently, when we have a 
 strong wind for forty-eight hours we have a hundred vessels here all 
 coming in in fleets. Our great facilities for handling this grain are such 
 that we can take it out, put it into our elevators, store it five days free, 
 and it gives ample time for the canal-boats to arrive here and take it off, 
 and the vessels are unloaded and gone, so Jhat those vessels are not 
 detained here as they would be if they attempted to go through the 
 Welland Canal. A fleet arriving there have to take their turn in pass- 
 ing those locks, one at a time; but we can unload thirty at a time, 
 showing the advantage of this port and the great advantage to the 
 Erie Canal, because her boats have got to go steady on account of the 
 locks. They lock every ten or fifteen minutes. They do not come in 
 fleets ; so that by holding the grain in store at a very low rate, we grant 
 more facilities to your western produce. 
 
 . The Chairman. Can you inform us whether any one here would he 
 willing to give us, or can give us, the detailed expenses of a round trip, 
 taking it through the year, so that we can get the average expense for 
 each trip during the year* 
 
 Mr. Clark. Yes, sir. I do not think it can be given to you this 
 'evening, but we have a great many men here who will be able to give it 
 to you, and I think our secretary of the Board of Trade will be very 
 glad to do so. 
 
 Mr. State Senator Lewis. Mr. Chairman, there will be no speech from 
 me, but I desire, on the part of the committee of which I have the honor of 
 being chairman, to say that it was appointed by the legislature when they 
 learned of the appointment of your committee and of the important 
 duties that would devolve upon you, and believing that your observa- 
 tion would lead you to the conclusion that the State of New York was 
 really the territory across which this commerce must pass in order to 
 get to tide- water. This committee, consisting of five senators and nine 
 members of the assembly — although all of them have not put in an 
 appearance here — was appointed to visit you when you reached our 
 State, and to afford you such facilities as lie in our power to investigate 
 the advantages of this State. We have been with you now for five 
 days, and I desire, on behalf of the committee, to thank you for your 
 courtesy and kindness to us. It has, so far as I am concerned — and I 
 express the sentiments of the committee — been a time of pleasure and 
 of profit to us. And I desire to repeat what I said before, that, in my 
 limited experience, I have never known a committee who were as will- 
 ing, and who did expend so much time and labor in so short a time in 
 pursuing the duties devolving upon them. 
 
 Now, I desire further to say, that, after being appointed chairman of 
 this committee, I consulted somewhat with the commercial gentlemen of 
 this city, with a view of presenting to you some statistics touching the 
 question that would be investigated by you. 
 
 I have not yet succeeded in getting those figures in the proper shape 
 to present them to you, and after the experience that I have had during 
 this week listening, as we all did, to the elaborate preparations of the 
 Montreal route and our Oswego friends, I desire to have our friends 
 here in Buffalo prepare a statement in writing, which may be perhaps 
 printed, and which we will furnish to the committee any time, so that 
 you can avail yourselves of it. 
 
 I desire to add one thing further and then I am done. "We believe 
 here in Buffalo — and my friends of the legislative committee will excuse 
 me for talking a little about Buffalo — that nature intended that this 
 Bhould be the outlet of the commerce coming down the lakes. The com- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 209 
 
 niercial people of the country have thought so, and they have used it 
 and are using the facilities of this city to carry on their commerce from 
 the West to the East. Our railroad friends in an early day attempted 
 to avoid this city. 
 
 The Erie Eailway when it was constructed had its western terminus at 
 Dunkirk. They soon ascertained that tLay had made a great blunder, 
 and changed to the city of Buffalo. The Midland road that is now in 
 process of construction to this city was constructed running to Oswego. 
 They ascertained upon their arrival at that town that they had made a 
 mistake and that the road could not succeed having its terminus in the 
 city of Oswego, and hence they at once set about running a line to the 
 city of Buffalo. It was so with the Canadian roads. They undertook 
 to avoid it. They have, every one of them, I believe, changed, and are 
 now running to the city of Buffalo a branch. We have today in opera- 
 tion, and projected, as I am told, thirteen railroads centering in this city. 
 So far as my investigations have gone — I am not a commercial gentleman, 
 but I have conversed with a good many commercial gentlemen, and I 
 will say that they entertain various views upon the subject, but the bal- 
 ance of the opinion of the commercial men of this city is that the grain 
 must be brought down the lakes; that the railroads cannot in any way 
 compete with the lakes, and that in a few years the grain is to come 
 down the lakes in large boats. Some think certainly they will carry at 
 least 100,000 bushels in one load. 
 
 A voice. It has already been done. 
 
 Mr. Lewis. You saw to-day a vessel, the "Tonawanda," that will carry 
 78,000 bushels. It is hard to ascertain exactly these gentlemen's views, 
 because it is their interest not to have the idea prevail that they are 
 making too large profits, hence they do not put down the price really 
 where it ought to be. In my judgment that is not of very much account, 
 so far as my experience is concerned; but, in my judgment, from conver- 
 sation with these gentlemen, considering the return cargo that they get 
 that substantially pays the expense of the trip, they can carry grain 
 from Chicago to Buffalo and make a handsome living profit at 3 cents 
 a bushel, and I believe the time will come, and that pretty soon, when 
 they will be compelled to do it by competition at those figures. 
 
 Now, the only question that is left is how it shall be got to the city of 
 New York ; for I take it, as Americans and as citizens of the United 
 States, we would prefer that it should land in the city of New York 
 rather than in the city of Montreal. There are various views in refer- 
 ence to that subject. Some think we should have a ship-canal; others 
 think that all we need is the improvement of the Erie Canal, making it 
 a -little more capacious so far as the depth of water is concerned, and 
 the enlargement of the locks and the introduction of steam, and that 
 will be the solution of the difficulty. 
 
 We witnessed to-day an exhibition of the cable towage. That has 
 been in successful operation in Europe for many years. I believe that 
 it can be operated upon the Erie Canal successfully, and what we need 
 is a depth of water still with 8 or 9 feet and the enlargement of the 
 locks — because it is the ability to lock through these vessels that de- 
 termines the capacity of the canal — and the introduction of steam upon 
 the canal, and then I believe that the thing is about completed. 
 
 You all know that a few years ago the State offered a premium of 
 $100,000 for. the solution of this question of the navigation of the canal 
 by steamer. It has set at work a great many inventors, and they have 
 produced all sorts of boats. They have not yet, perhaps, got exactly 
 the boat, but they are going to reach it, in my judgment, very soon. 
 14 T S 
 
210 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 When the steam is introduced upon the canal then we shall get the 
 speed requisite, and that is about the only thing there is left. If the 
 locks are enlarged, then the capacity of the canal will be enlarged. If 
 the locks are double, the capacity will be double. 
 
 If we can increase the speed by steam I believe that grain can be 
 carried from the city of Chicago to the city of New York, and afford a 
 fair living profit, for 10 cents a bushel, particularly if the State will be 
 sufficiently wise to reduce the tolls, and there are amendments now 
 pending which, if adopted, will reduce the tolls to the lowest figures 
 that they can be reduced and pay sufficient to keep the canal in repair. 
 If that is done it is certainly the cheapest transportation that the world 
 has ever known anything about. 
 
 The great difficulties, in my judgment, and I believe your investiga- 
 tions will show it, do not arise in our neighborhood. ■ They are out West. 
 They are in Chicago. Their charges there are enormous, and they are 
 in the city of New York, arising from their want of facilities in handling 
 grain and putting it on board of vessels for Europe. It seems to me, 
 with all due deference to my friends at Oswego, that there cannot be 
 any doubt that the Erie Canal is to be the great regulator of our com- 
 merce, and if the Government is to expend any money in improving any 
 of these water-channels they would be very unwise if they did not ex- 
 pend it here. If it should be expended in making a ship-canal from 
 Oswego, then you are at a point where they have no railroads. I be- 
 lieve they have but one, and that is in the hands of a. receiver. 
 
 But I do not wish to detain you. This question is a very important 
 one, and I shall look with very great interest to the report of this com- 
 mittee, and to the action that congress shall take upon your report. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Chairman : Presuming that when we separate to- 
 night, our official relations, which have been so very pleasant during 
 the past week, will terminate, especially as two members of our commit- 
 tee propose leaving for their homes this evening, I cannot permit this 
 meeting to close without a single word which shall be expressive of the 
 thanks of the Senate committee to the legislative committee of the State 
 of New York. Through their generosity, kindness and courtesy, we 
 have passed the week very pleasantly. Through the facilities which 
 they have afforded us we have been enabled to obtain very much infor- 
 mation that otherwise would not have been within our reach. I wish to 
 express to that committee the sincere thanks of the committee which I 
 represent for all these offices so kindly shown to us, and in conclusion 
 would only say, that if, when you come to consider the question of the 
 enlargement of your channels of commerce through this Empire State 
 of the Union, you shall gauge their dimensions by the large-heartedness 
 shown to us in this State, the overflowing granaries of the West will 
 have ample facilities for reaching the East. 
 
 The committee here adjourned. 
 
 Niagara Palls, New Yore, 
 
 Monday, September 22, 1873. 
 William Hotchkiss, Lewiston, New York. Mr. Chairman and gen- 
 tlemen of the senatorial committee: I had thought to make some 
 remarks to you on the subject of this canal, but inasmuch as your time 
 is so much occupied I have concluded that perhaps it would be quite 
 as well to present the documents that I have here, which open the whole 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 211 
 
 subject and touch upon it more thoroughly, perhaps, tban I could if I 
 sbould attempt to elucidate the subject myself. There is a pamphlet 
 upon the subject of the Niagara Falls Ship-Canal. It purports to be a 
 criticism of Colonel Blunt's system, a new system presented and advo- 
 cated by Mr. Blunt, in favor of the increased size of locks to be employed 
 on the Niagara Ship-Canal. By perusal at your leisure, that would 
 probably fully present the subject as well as for me to detain you by 
 reading it and reciting the contents. I have the honor to present 
 another pamphlet also, upon the same subject, and it would perhaps be 
 quite as well to present those for your perusal at your own. leisure with- 
 out occupying your time and attention here, and I will not take up the 
 time that other gentlemen might be disposed to occupy in any remarks 
 that they may choose to make. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. You informed us that you had some documents or 
 profiles which you wished to present ; are they here? 
 
 Mr. Hotchkiss. I will have them presented to the committee. 
 
 The documents referred to were presented by Mr. Hotchkiss and ex- 
 plained by him to the committee. 
 
 Eeport of Mr. Blackwell, engineer, was here read by Mr. Hotchkiss, 
 as follows : 
 
 Gentlemen, I have completed my examinations for a canal from the month of Oill 
 Creek to the brow of the mountain-ridge near Lewiaton. Herewith inclose you the 
 estimate. 
 
 The following dimensions were assumed in making the estimate, namely, where the 
 cutting is entirely earth, the "width of canal to be 16 feet on the bottom, with slopes 1-J 
 feet horizontal to 1 foot perpendicular, and where they are rock the canal to be 'j!i feet 
 wide on the bottom with its slopes perpendicular to the top of the rock, and then the 
 slope of the earth to he the same as above mentioned for entirely earth 'cuttings, with 
 a depth of 4 feet of water for the whole length of the canal. With these dimensions, 
 by substituting them iu the formula of Eytelwein, which was adopted by the Erie 
 Canal engineers in the year 1849, for their calculations of the flow of water, we shall 
 have 12,300 cubic feet of water flowing through anyone sectionof the canal per minute, 
 which is equal to 280 horse-power for every 15 feet fall, assuming 320 feet fall from the 
 surface of the water in the canal at the brow of the mountain to the surface of the 
 water in the Niagara River at Lewiston, and, by a judicious location and expenditure 
 of the quantity of water after making the necessary models of the power thus obtained, 
 the traction thus obtained will equal 5,000 horse-power. In making up this estimate 
 I have assumed for a basis the price of common labor at $1 a day. Were common 
 labor to recede to what has been considered its standard price on public works for 
 many years, namely, 75 cents per day, I should consider this work at $170,000 more 
 favorable for construction than at the present estimate with labor at $1 per day. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. What year was that estimate made in ; what is the 
 date of that report f 
 
 Mr. Hotchkiss. Eighteen hundred and fifty-one. To proceed with 
 the reading of the report : 
 
 From the Devil's Hole to the brow of the mountain there frequently occurs fissures 
 in the rock. Through these there would be a continual wastage of water unless they 
 were closed. The best means of preventing this escape would be by using concrete 
 masonry. This item of expense you will notice has not been embraced in the estimate, 
 as I had not the means of arriving at it with any degree of accuracy; but I do not 
 think it will prove an item of much magnitude. 
 
 That was the report that was made by Mr. Blackwell in furnishing 
 this profile or map. 
 
 Remarks of Eon. John. T. Bush, of Clifton, Ontario. 
 
 Mr. Bush. I will say to you, gentlemen, that, while I reside in Canada, 
 it has been but temporary, and my greater interest is in the States. 
 But I am in no way interested whatever, except the general interest 
 everybody has in reference to this canal. I think I am as impartial as 
 
212 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 you and not affected by local interest in any respect. We have the Wei- 
 land Canal on our side of the river. It is twenty-eight .iniles long, and 
 -what I am going to mention to you is, I think, somewhat of an argument 
 in favor of the construction of this canal. That canal does, even now, 
 one-half as much business as the Erie Canal. Alongside of that canal 
 runs a railroad, and last: year they carried over between 24,000,000 and 
 25,000,000 of bushels of wheat, 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Do you mean the canal ? 
 
 Mr. Btjsh. The railway in addition to the canal. Vessels coming 
 down the lake too large to pass through this small canal, which bears 
 bat a vessel of about 600 tons burden, unloaded, and their grain has 
 been put upon the railway,' and carried across to Lake Ontario. That 
 canal was begun in 1829, principally by Americans, with a very small 
 subscription on the other side, and I came out with Mr. Yates so early 
 as 1830, when a boy, at the time that propositions were made on the 
 part of the colonial government to purchase it. I think he sold that 
 canal at that time for about $300. They have expended to the amount 
 of, I think, about $15,000,000 — the colonial government has — and made 
 it large enough to bear vessels of from four to six hundred tons burden. 
 Four thousand vessels passed over that canal — not different vessels, but 
 trips — this last season. 
 
 Now, if the Erie Canal could serve the West, and almost every bushel 
 of graiD, and every barrel of flour, and almost the entire freight is from 
 the West that passes over that Welland Canal — not a hundred tons 
 from the Canadas — now, if so large a proportion of the freight of these 
 lakes may be diverted over a canal of twenty-eight miles in length, 
 what would be the result if we had a canal of only seven miles long? 
 The three towns bordering here urged me to go on to Ottawa, waking 
 up very late, just before the letting of the contracts for the enlarge- 
 ment of the Welland Canal. I got on to Ottawa the day before the con- 
 tracts were to be let, and I presented an argument before the board of 
 public works, constituting the executive department of the government. 
 It was simply the facts which were furnished to me, but they were so 
 strong and convincing that, although the contractors were there urging 
 the letting of their contracts, notwithstanding that, the government 
 unanimously determined to put those proposals into the safe and retain 
 them until they could appoint engineers to go and survey the feasibility 
 of a canal from Chippewa to Queenstown, a distance of nine miles. 
 Tbey appointed Mr. McAlpine and two others to make that examination 
 and survey, and the result was the deferring of the letting of the con- 
 tracts for three months, and from what those men said to me. I am satis- 
 fied that every, one of them thought it the interest of Canada, and I 
 think every intelligent man who had investigated the subject would say 
 that it was the interest of Canada, to have constructed this short canal. 
 
 But there were great obstacles, greater than you have to encounter. 
 In the survey it was found for quite a long distance opposite here they 
 would have to excavate more than eighty feet, principally rock excava- 
 tion for a certain distance. But, notwithstanding all that, still I think 
 the government would have been determined as a matter of interest to 
 Canada to have constructed this large canal iustead of enlarging the 
 Welland Canal if it had not been for the fact that the government was 
 almost equally poised between the opposition and the party in power, 
 and they could not spare three members wholived along the line of that 
 canal, for along the line of twenty eight miles of canal there have 
 grown up about ten villages, one 10,000 or 15,000 population, where two 
 members reside, and, if business had been diverted "by the construction 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 213' 
 
 of this canal from Chippewa to Queenstown, they probably would have 
 lost the influence of these two members, and very likely would have 
 been thrown into a minority. 
 
 Now what will .be the result of the enlargement of that canal ? If 
 within the last ten years there has been diverted there so large an 
 amount of produce that has gone down to the Atlantic ; if it has in- 
 creased the shipping to about, I think, three vessels leaving Montreal 
 now daily for Liverpool ; if it has increased the amount of commerce or 
 the amount of receipts from about $10,000,000 to $17,000,000, what will 
 be the result when they come to enlarge that canal ? You may say, 
 " If they enlarge that canal that will answer our purpose." Not so, gen- 
 tlemen, I think. When this question was agitated the board of trade 
 of Oswego, Cleveland, and of half a dozen places up the lake, all wrote 
 me letters to send on resolutions urging the shortest possible canal. 
 They said, " Give us the least detention that you possibly can in the 
 canal." It takes three days to get through the canal of twenty-eight 
 miles. We said, and we proved, I think, satisfactorily, that a vessel 
 could pass through this nine-miles canal in one day. Now the differ- 
 ence, I calculate, amounts even in those vessels of 600 tons burden — 
 the expense properly computed upon the interest of the cargo, the inter- 
 est of the vessel, the expense of hands, and the towing and tugging — to 
 about $100 a day. And if you can save $200 on the passage of a vessel 
 from Lake Erie to Lake Ontario, on 4,000 vessels how many thousand 
 do you save ? I think about $1,200,000. That is a very considerable 
 item. And it is proper to compute the actual value of the vessel, and 
 the interest upon that value, and the interest upon the cargo, and the 
 expense of the hands, fuel, &c. 
 
 Now our Buffalo friends have presented, I presume, every argument 
 against it, and I want to say one word to caution you against their hav- 
 ing too great an influence. They have educated . themselves — not the 
 wisest men of Buffalo, but a class of men, began to educate themselves — 
 to the idea that they must oppose every project of navigation that did 
 not run along the Erie Canal ; and they have made it so popular that 
 wiser heads than politicians' have yielded to it, and not the good sense 
 of the locality. You cannot make that canal serve the West ; it is im- 
 possible. That canal could do to-day double the amount of business 
 that it has done. I do not speak, gentlemen, from mere superficial 
 knowledge', but I lived in Buffalo many years, and was a representative 
 some years, and examined it, and was urged to say much that 1 thought 
 was impolitic to say. Their interest is the interest of the West. They 
 may ask you to give them $8,000,000 for the enlargement of their locks, 
 and it will not reduce the cost of transportation one penny on a bushel. 
 
 Now I understand your mission to be this, gentlemen : You are seek- 
 ing to find — and to put an end to this question for all future time if you 
 can — to find a channel of navigation that will so cheapen commerce as 
 to furnish an adequate market to the great West. They will have that. 
 They are, in that section of the country, now the preponderating power, 
 and they will be the overwhelming power in less than fifty years ; and 
 when they come to that they will insist upon the cheapest possible-route 
 to the Atlantic, whether it is to Montreal or whether it is to New York. 
 They will have it ; and that you comprehend better than I do, for you 
 know the West. One of your number, I know, knows it well. 
 
 It is a matter of interest now to the East if you can cheapen naviga- 
 tion so as to give an additional price to the farmer of the West. You 
 furnish the produce to the Eastern man cheaper, and he is satisfied. 
 
 The great staple object, I suppose, of the West will be in a few years 
 
214 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 the growing of Indian corn. It grows almost spontaneously there. Now 
 when you fet to Chicago, you will find that sound judicious commercial 
 men will till you, as they told me, that if you will make a channel of 
 communication that will bear a vessel of 1,000 tons burden through the 
 shortest possible canal, they can carry Indian corn from Chicago and 
 land it alongside an ocean-bound vessel at Montreal for 9 cents a bushel. 
 They will tell you so; they told me so, many ot them, Suppose, for 
 instance, that it cost 10 cents to get the Indian corn from the interior 
 of your State and over the adjacent States to Chicago, Milwaukee, and 
 to the different ports there. It is delivered on the side of the ocean for 
 18 cents. It is transferred for 5 or 6 cents to Liverpool, and what is 
 the result ? It makes every bushel of corn to a man in the remote part 
 of Minnesota worth 28 to 30 cents a bushel. It doubles the value of 
 every acre of land of Illinois, of Minnesota, and of all the five or six of 
 those States, because the corn then becomes the most profitable ; and 
 you are doing an act of philanthropy if you can accomplish that object 
 to the Europeans. They want bread that they will have to buy. A 
 reasonable rate will be at a lower price than could be offered by any 
 competition to-day, and highly better than that brown bread they have 
 got there. Now you can, with five of those Western States, feed almost 
 entirely all Europe, excepting the more wealthy class, with Indian corn- 
 Ireland, Germany, and even France and England. Is not that object 
 desirable ? 
 
 These remarks I know are generally submitted to such men as yon, 
 but is it not a great object to accomplish ? It seems to me it is. 
 
 Should any local interest, should New York itself, say to the West, 
 "You shall be confined to this little narrow channel, and so taxed 
 by monopolies that you cannot afford to sell your corn and send it 
 through to Europe; you must burn it?" That is the result. The vessels 
 on the lake are owned by combinations ; the canal-boats are owned by 
 combinations. 
 
 I see by the paper that a vessel that will carry 70,000 tons has charged 
 $10,500 to bring a load of grain from Chicago to Buffalo. Is not that 
 exorbitant"? Is it not outrageous? Talk about railroads; it is worse than 
 railroads anywhere. Ten thousand five hundred dollars ; not takinginto 
 view the returning freight ! Now this should be obviated. How can 
 you do it? The public has no friend, the West has no friend except its 
 competition. It is proposed, I see, that you should make a recommend- 
 ation to appropriate $8,000,000 for the enlargement of the locks, and 
 have a kind of copartnership between the General Government and the 
 State of New York. That will not work well, and I do not believe you 
 will approve of it, but if you appropriate that, the West will not be bene- 
 fited one single dollar, and you must make valuable and available these 
 lakes. You can transport on these lakes very cheaply. • 
 
 The argument is, "Oh, you would benefit Montreal. 1 ' Well, Mr. John 
 Young, whom you have heard, and I presume know, has been just as 
 zealous an advocate as any for the construction of a canal from Caugh- 
 nawaga across to Lake Champlain, and if they want to protect the city 
 of New York let them make the appropriation again. The city of Sew 
 York, I believe, made the appropriation for the construction, or the en- 
 largement, of a ship-canal from Whitehall to Fort Edward, of about 
 twenty miles, proposing to dam the Hudson River, and improve naviga- 
 tion so that the trade might be diverted. Probably the monopoly in- 
 terest of New York will control the graiu in that way, probably a larger 
 proportion will go to New York than to Montreal. But the West do not 
 care what port they have, nor are they bound to regard what port they 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 215 
 
 go to. They say, " Give us a market for the work of our labor ; let our 
 com go on to market; let our wheat be cheapened to market; let us 
 supply Europe if we can." That is the true policy, the enlarged policy, 
 the just policy of the Government. And there is no way to do it so 
 cheaply as across these little peninsulas here. That $8,000,000 would make 
 the canal across here. It would be a free canal. The people of Canada will 
 enlarge, and they are now enlarging, thosethree short canals to Montreal. 
 Then if New York wants to secure to itself the trade, let them build the 
 Caughnawaga Canal across Lake Champlain. Now, is not that right and 
 fair? 
 
 I saw in the paper that they took you on a tug down the river to 
 Tonawanda, and then back again as far as Black Eock. I do not mean 
 to insinuate that they told you that we could not get up against that 
 current, but I have seen one instance that an engineer had the audacity 
 to say it was nine miles an hour. Why, from the precipice of that falls 
 up to the length of this river it does not run nine miles an hour. It 
 does not run to exceed four miles an hour at Black Eock, and it is a poor 
 steamer that cannot navigate against a current of four miles. It is an 
 objection to sailing-vessels I admit, but for thirty or forty years steam- 
 boats have run down loaded, and loaded back to Chippewa. Several 
 hundred come down to Tonawanda and go back laden. They can over- 
 come it. Propellers can do it, and I suppose that the large proportion 
 of the commerce of the West very soon is to be done almost exclusively 
 by propellers. 
 
 Now suppose you construct this canal, sailing-vessels say, " We can- 
 not go up against this current, but the propeller "can." Let the sailing- 
 vessels go up the Welland Canal. A large proportion of the freighting 
 is done, I think, by propellers, and in the future is to be done almost ex- 
 clusively by them. Well, make this canal now of eight miles, which 
 will not cost more than the enlargement of the locks, and you will se- 
 cure a cheap navigation to Montreal ; and if New York, in connection 
 with Canada, will make connection so as to let those vessels go through 
 to the city of New York, very well. That is their interest ; that the 
 State of New York proposes to do, that Canada is willing to do on her 
 part. But it should be a free canal. 
 
 Now these remarks, for I have had no time to think on this subject, 
 are about all I have to say to you, and they have all, I have no doubt, 
 been said to you before, but you will find in Chicago, where they are 
 seeking just the object you are seeking, for let me say I think it entirely 
 impolitic and impracticable to build a ship-canal from Oswego to Al- 
 bany. They never will secure the freighting that way. I should be 
 happy if Buffalo and Oswego would prosper, and be happy to have an 
 enlarged canal the whole length, but you never can cheapen navigation 
 through the Erie Canal. It is out of the power of man. They have 
 been talking about it for thirty years, and you see but very little change. 
 They say the canal has not the ability. There is not a single man on 
 the line of that canal but what knows it could do double the amount of 
 business it ever- has done, and yet produce will not go over it because 
 of the expense and delay. That is a great consideration. You econ- 
 omize in regard to time by building this canal and connecting these 
 lakes most wonderfully, at least three or four days from Chicago to the 
 tide-water. You economize wonderfully in reference to cheapness. 
 
 Now, Buffalo ought not to be opposed to this measure, and I would 
 be glad to talk to you on this subject. I know it is not their interest to 
 oppose it. Do they want the business to leave them forty-eight miles 
 above Buffalo, and go across to the Welland Canal ? In less than two 
 
216 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 years you will find more freight through that Welland than through the 
 'Erie Oanal. Would it not be better for them to have all this freight 
 come down to the foot of the lake, and then change, or settle in port 
 and go down the river on its way to the ocean? Is not that for the in- 
 terest of Buffalo 1 It seems to me so. Even selfishness would prompt 
 that course, I think. You folks West will not be satisfied with that 
 twenty-eight miles of canal, and yet it will do more business than the 
 Erie Canal in less than two years. 
 
 Another consideration, I will say to you, is this : I live in Canada, 
 and am very familiar with the people and the officials there. I expect 
 that in less' than ten years it will be a part of your Government, and if 
 Buffalo pertinaciously opposes this canal, if all the line of the Erie 
 Canal, including my friend Mr. Conkling, and all up oppose any cheaper 
 canal, but wish to confine you to the West through this Erie Canal,, 
 what will be the result ? In less than ten years, in my opinion, that 
 government will be attached to yours. First it will be an independent 
 government, and I do not think there is hardly an intelligent man in 
 Canada who does not desire it, and hardly an officeholder who has not 
 expressed his conviction that it must occur, from the highest to the 
 lowest. But just now it is not policy to agitate it, parties are so equally 
 divided. There are a certain class of old fogies from England who are 
 opposed to it, and if either party adopted it that class of persons 
 would go against it and give the preponderance to the other. But when 
 it is made an issue and a party issue, I am fully satisfied that the peo- 
 ple of Canada will vote, first for independence, and next for annexation. 
 Then Buffalo may be left out in the cold, because they may construct 
 the Georgian Canal, and several other canals connecting with the Ot- 
 tawa River, making a short route then to the Atlantic. Then New York 
 may lose, and Buffalo lose, and Oswego lose, and all along the line of 
 the canal may lose business, and yet the West be the gainer. 
 
 The Chairman. One question, sir, on which I would like your opin- 
 ion. You spoke of the combination of the vessels on the lakes being 
 the great difficulty now. Would that be obviated to any extent by the 
 construction of this canal? 
 
 Mr. Bush. By competition. When you can load a vessel of 1,000 or 
 1,500 tons they can go right on to Montreal, and, if they please, across 
 the Atlantic. A gentleman has said they cannot cross the Atlantic, 
 but I say yes. The propellers are identical in form with the ocean ves- 
 sels, just precisely ; they can cross the Atlantic, and twenty years ago 
 a vessel that carried 1,500 tons was a very respectable size to do so. 
 
 The Chairman. In your judgment, then, the number of vessels- 
 would be increased ? 
 
 Mr. Bush. O, wonderfully. You would stimulate the people to 
 competition in Montreal and in New York, and they would have their 
 different lines, and that would reduce it. Now it is a combination. 
 They have a regular organization. W T e complain of the organization of 
 the laboring men and mechanics. It is just as bad, exactly, with the 
 commercial men. They have their corporations and combinations there. 
 Why, it is obvious, it is in the very proposition that Mr. Prosser made 
 to you, that a vessel carrying 75,000 bushels of grain, loaded instant- 
 aneously into the vessel and unloaded in an equal length of time, would 
 carry for 15 cents a bushel just one way. Is not that extravagant? 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Do you know the cost of the vessel— the capital that 
 is invested in it? 
 
 Mr. Bush. I do not know about that one to which he refers, but they 
 have just recently built one of the very largest at Tonawanda at a cost 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 217 
 
 of $75,000, 1 believe. I do not believe there is a propeller costing over 
 ^100,000; and if they can make $10,000 carrying one way certainly 
 they have freight back. It is the very best stock you could get. And 
 the reason is all those men have grown rich who are connected with: 
 these commercial operations there, and consequently they do not want 
 any competition. 
 
 Now they will tell you in Chicago — as fair men as in Buffalo or any- 
 where else — that coin can be carried to Montreal for 9 cents a bushel, 
 and that will give to the farmer in the West a fair compensation for his 
 grain. He will not barn it then. 
 
 The Chairman. Yon spoke of the length of time required to pass 
 the Welland Canal. Is not that time mostly occupied by the passage 
 through the locks? 
 
 Mr. Bush. A good deal of it. There are several miles, I think, 
 where the excavation is 00 feet — four or five miles I think. They have 
 no tow-path there. They start from the lock with a tow-path; then 
 they put on a tug and run about eight miles, and then put on the horses 
 and tow, and these changes and the great number of vessels make the 
 difficulty. 1 was there on Saturday, and there is a string of vessels 
 which seemed to me crowding one upon the other. There were at least 
 a dozen there urging their way across the locks. 
 
 The Chairman. I had supposed that the chief part of the time was 
 taken up by the passage of the locks. 
 
 Mr. Bush. They can cross six locks in less than eighteen hours; the 
 canal-men there told me so. But, after the determination of the board 
 of public works, all the contractors and canal-men went into a room 
 and talked the matter over, and they passed through the twenty-six 
 locks. You would not need so many here, and they are not going to 
 build so many when they enlarge — but eighteen in eighteen hours. So 
 that the whole seven miles through here can be traversed in one day, 
 and the average through theirs would be three days. There might 'be 
 such a crowd as to retard them, but a vessel could run through here 
 without any difficulty in a day and save two days' time. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Is it expected that the transit through the Welland 
 Canal will be reduced to eighteen hours, instead of three days, when the 
 locks are enlarged ? 
 
 Mr. Bush. O, no; it is twenty-eight miles long. It is the distance 
 which delays. It simply increases the capacity of the vessel, and prob- 
 ably when the vessels are heavier they cannot be towed so rapidly, 
 either by steam or horses, as these light vessels; but these light vessels, 
 passing through, average three days. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Will that be the average after the enlargement of the 
 canal ? 
 
 Mr. Bush. It will be a little longer time, because you cannot move a 
 large vessel so rapidly as you can a small one. I think it will be, if 
 anything, a longer time. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. They will not diminish the number of locks then. 
 
 Mr. Bush. They do diminish it — from twenty-six, 1 think, to eighteen. 
 They reduce and make them longer and higher lifts. The .elevation at 
 Buffalo could be obviated, the expense of this transshipment. If a 
 vessel starts and goes clear through, it avoids about 2 per cent, from 
 going into the elevator before being transshipped. Two cents is a con- 
 siderable item. It is from one to two cents sometimes, and sometimes 
 it amounts to more. 
 
 The Chairman. One and a quarter of it is five days. 
 
 Mr. Bush. Yes, sir; you may calculate on 1 per cent, at least. Now 
 
218 TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOAED. 
 
 that is obviated. If you make a channel right through, so that a vessel 
 can start from Chicago and Milwaukee and go right through, that per- 
 centage is saved ; the time is saved ; the interest on the cargo is saved. 
 You can go through certainly in four days. 
 
 The Chairman. I wish to get your views on this point ; one that has 
 been suggested to me. The Canadian people are going to enlarge their 
 canal to the capacity of a thousand-ton vessel. Their policy has been 
 to charge only enough tolls to maintain the canal, not to pay any inter- 
 est on the expense. 
 
 Mr. Bush. You are too generous toward us. We charge, sometimes, 
 as you do, all we can get. 
 
 The Chairman. Only half a cent a bushel? 
 
 Mr. Bush. I think it is more than that, but will send it to you. Oar 
 revenue from our canals is quite large. 
 
 The Chairman. They do not nearly pay the interest on the cost, 
 however ; but what 1 was coming to is this : Assuming that to be the 
 principle, and that their tolls are low and not enough to pay the inter- 
 est on the cost of construction, is it not cheaper for us — as by the treaty 
 of'Washington we have an equal right to use their canals as themselves, 
 and upon the same terms — to join with them in the use of their canals 
 at present, enlarged as they would be, rather than to build one our- 
 selves and have to charge tolls enough to pay interest on its construc- 
 tion? 
 
 Mr. Bush. No ; I think not. 
 
 The Chairman. I want to hear you on that point. 
 
 Mr. Bush. No, I think not ; they will tax you there about all you will 
 bear. They are ambitious, of course, to secure commerce there and the 
 competition between that route and the Erie Canal is what keeps the 
 charge down. And so with all their canals all the way through to Mon- 
 treal. There is, with that canal, I think, about eighty miles of canal 
 navigation to Montreal. I suppose, from the different routes which have 
 been made by engineers, a canal through here need not cost more than 
 eight or ten millions of dollars. It is seven miles. Now it is an object. 
 I do not know what the interest of that would amount to, but probably 
 $560,000 ; you may charge that amount of toll and you will charge less 
 toll than is charged there, because you will have all the vessels. Not a 
 vessel will go through there if they can have a seven-mile canal. They 
 have a great prejudice against it; rubbing on the side, tearing off their 
 paint, wearing the vessel, &c, makes a very strong prejudice against it. 
 All these men who wrote me, and some of them were men of ability, 
 said, " give us, if possible, the shortest canal." They passed resolutions 
 in favor of a short canal and sent them on to Ottawa. You may charge 
 $560,000, and you may charge for tending the locks, and you will find 
 it cheaper than it would be in partnership with them over there — cheaper 
 than the tax they will make on you. And then, again, you will have a 
 canal of your own, that you can always control; you have the means to 
 build it. They are stinted in their ability. Where this great excava- 
 tion is made, the quicksand underneath at one time rose up from the 
 bottom and tipped a scow-boat over, and drowned seven men. It rose 
 right up from the bottom. 
 
 A canal on the other side would be far more expensive and two miles 
 longer than the canal you can build on this side. I do not believe you 
 can enlarge the canal from Oswego to Albany so as to cheapen naviga- 
 tion and make a very material deduction in the cost of transportation. 
 
 You are going to Chicago and Detroit, where you will be furnished 
 with the most positive and impartial data in the cost of transportation, 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 219 
 
 for tbey are Dot interested in any one locality. Bat these men who have 
 addressed you — very fair and good men, and I respect them — are inter- 
 ested, and they think that Buffalo constitutes a large portion of this 
 hemisphere. 
 
 Mr. Conover. What did I understand you to say was the time re- 
 quired to pass through the Welland canal now 1 
 
 Mr. Bush. Three days. 
 
 Mr. Conover. What number of locks are there ? 
 
 Mr. Bush. Twenty-six. They reduce it to eighteen, and not to exceed 
 twenty, I think. 
 
 Mr. Conover. But you think the increased tonnage will make them 
 as long in passing through as they gain by the less number of locks. 
 
 Mr. Bush. Yes, sir ; they can afford to come here and pay 30 cents a 
 bushel through this short canal instead of going through the other, of 
 twenty-eight miles. 
 
 The Chairman. If they can pass the locks in one day I do not see 
 why tbey should be two days in going twenty-eight miles. 
 
 Mr. Bush. I think it would take all of a day and a half to tow a large 
 vessel of 600 tons twenty-eight miles, 
 
 Mr. Conover. Is it not estimated that it would require twenty-two 
 locks over this seven miles I 
 
 Mr. Bush. It certainly would require no more locks than on the other 
 side, and one lock less. 
 
 Mr. Conover. Why does it take only one day to go over this same 
 number of locks and three days yonder to go over I 
 
 Mr. Bush. Now, supposing they tow two miles an hour ; that, prob- 
 ably, is the maximum with a large vessel. Then it would take to go 
 over to the bridge of the mountain, five miles, say ten hours at two miles 
 an hour. That is probably as rapidly as they could tow. I have been 
 told that it took them about three days to get through the Welland 
 Canal. 
 
 The Chairman. The statement is about two days for sail and one 
 day for steam through the Welland Canal. 
 . Mr. Bush. O, it is a mistake. 1 wish you would go through that 
 canal and see it, and I think you will find, from all of the collector's, lock- 
 tenders, and all of them, that it takes three days. 
 
 Mr. Hotchktss. What is the character of the banks of the Welland 
 Canal? 
 
 Mr. Bush. It is generally of earth. 
 
 Mr. Hotchkiss. Now, they necessarily have to tow very slowly, do 
 they not "i 
 
 Mr. Bush. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Hotchkiss. In this Niagara Canal, of which you have been speak- 
 ing, the sides are rock-bound, and a propeller will proceed through this 
 caual with equal speed to what they do on the river and on the lake? 
 
 Mr. Bush. Yes, sir; they could do it without washing the banks. 
 That is true, but then I doubt whether it would be safe to do it. If it was 
 large enough, so that they could steer with safety between rocks, they 
 could do it. Eocks are bad things to come in contact with. I spent a 
 year examining the canals of the State of New York, by order of the 
 legislature, and they do not average much over three miles on the Brie 
 Canal with a light boat. It is only through that deep excavation, as I say, 
 at Allensburgh, that they tow with tugs. When they can get the horses 
 on they do so. I think if you inquire of commercial meu, they will tell 
 you that it takes from two to three clays to go through the Welland 
 Caual. I know, generally, three clays by detention and other causes. 
 
220 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 And you will find a great many vessels running from Chicago directly 
 through to Oswego, and down to Montreal. You will, however, get 
 more perfect data from those commercial men thstn I can give you- 
 What I report to you is simply what gentlemen have informed me. 
 The committee here adjourned. 
 
 Chicago, Illinois, Friday, September 26, 1873. 
 The committee met at 10 a. m. 
 
 Statement ofR. Diefendorf, agent of the Northern Transportation Company. 
 
 The Chairman. You are engaged in lake transportation f 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What companies do you represent ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. The Northern Transportation Company, Vermont 
 Central line. 
 
 The Chairman. That runs in connection with the Vermont Central 
 line, you mean! 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the nature of that connection ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. It is a through line. Our line now is managed by 
 the Vermont Central line, or the Central Vermont, I believe, they call 
 it now. We have not changed our name entirely, but I understand the 
 railroad corporations call it the Central Vermont. 
 
 The Chairman. What I want to know was whether it was owned by 
 the Vermont Central. 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. It is not directly owned by the railroad ; hut the 
 officers of the railroad company own the controlling stock, I presume. 
 This change was made two years ago. We used to be the Northern 
 Transportation Company of Ohio, and we are still, virtually. 
 
 The Chairman. How are your through freights made, by steamers or 
 otherwise ! 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. As desired. We contract through to all points in 
 New England, or nearly all points, or we give a local lake rate. We 
 run to Ogdensburgh and Oswego, in fact we can go most anywhere, to 
 Kingston, Cape Vincent, or any point on the Saint Lawrence liiver, or 
 we can go to Montreal. 
 
 The ChairmAn. Do you run to Montreal ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. We do not at present, but we have sent a great 
 many propellers through to Montreal, not, however, within two years. 
 
 The Chairman. Not since the connection with the railroad was 
 formed *? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Not since the direct connection was formed. Of 
 course we always had a contract with the Vermont Central people to 
 carry our freight when we were not connected with them as we are now. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the location of your route ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. We run from here through the chain of lakes, 
 through the Welland Canal, through the Saint Lawrence liiver to Og- 
 densburgh, and connect there with the Vermont Central lines leading 
 on to Boston. We connect with the rail at Ogdensburgh. 
 
 The Chairman. How do the rates to Montreal and your rates usually 
 compare, to Ogdensburgh or Oswego; do you remember the difference? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. We cannot give any specified difference. It de- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 221 
 
 pends a good deal on the demand. When flour is 75 cents per bushel to 
 Ogdensburgh it is about 90 ceDts to Montreal, or in that proportion. 
 
 The Chairman. How do you regard in your shipments the Welland 
 Canal — as being a serious embarrassmept on your line? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. It is to us, sir, very serious. 
 
 The Chairman. In what respect 1 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. We have been embarrassed more this year, per- 
 haps, than we ever have before. We should run through there in about 
 twelve or fourteen hours, and we have been detained as long as forty- 
 eight and fifty-two hours. 
 
 The Chairman. On what account, the pressure of business ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir, and the lack of water. They cannot 
 carry our tonnage. They have to go light, and have to fill up with the 
 way-freight between here and the canal. They do not allow us to lock 
 drawing more than 10 feet of water, which is a serious embarrassment 
 to us, and the loss of at least 75 tons of 'freight to every propeller. Our 
 boats will average from 50 to 75 tons less than we should carry through. 
 
 The Chairman. Some of the boats transship at a point there 1 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. The sailing-vessels do; but we cannot do that. 
 W6 have lightered a great deal of freight up to the last two years ; but 
 they have been dredging there and trying to get water. Last year we 
 had to stop that. We could not get into the canal and get to the dock 
 and light our freight. 
 
 The Chairman. So that on all your through freights to Ogdensburgh, 
 or anywhere beyond the Welland Canal, you lose what ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Prom 50 to 75 tons on each boat; but heretofore 
 we have been able to lighter a certain quantity of rolling freight across 
 the Welland Eailroad. Until within the last two years we could not do 
 it. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What is the average capacity of your boats? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. On the canals they average about 350 tons now, 
 or, perhaps, 360 tons. We can carry through the lake 450 tons. On 
 every boat you might say that the average is 75 tons of through freight 
 which we are obliged to leave off, on account of the loss of water in the 
 canal. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you give us the names of the various freight 
 water-lines running east from here? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. The Western Transportation Company, on the 
 New York Central line— that is the Western Transportation line, old, 
 and consolidated with the New York Central Eailroad, called the West- 
 ern Transportation Company, New York Central Eailroad. The other 
 is the Union Steamboat Company, Erie Eailway line. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the way they are named ? 
 ' Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir; the other line is the Anchor line, the 
 Evans line of propellers. They run toErie and to Buffalo. 
 
 The Chairman. Have they any connection ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. They have ; but how closely they are' connected I 
 cannot say. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know the nature of the connection of the two 
 other lines ; I mean the first two you mentioned ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Nothing definitely ; only they are controlled by the 
 railroad-lines to a certain extent. 
 
 The Chairman. Do the agents of those railroads here have anything 
 to do with fixing the through freights on steamboat-lines ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. No, sir; the agents of the steamboat-lines have 
 the only control of the steamboat-lines; that is, the agent of the New 
 
222 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 York Central proper has nothing to do with the New York Central line 
 of propellers. Then another line, the Grand Trunk, or the Sarma line, 
 Grand Trunk Railway. They run to Sarnia in connection with the 
 Grand Trunk road. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any other considerable number of outside 
 teamboat companies ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. No, sir ; there are very few propellers running wild 
 nowadays. They are all running in connection with some railroad-line. 
 We used to do so some years ago ; in fact nearly all of our propeller fleet 
 were ruuning wild, as we call it. Running wild is running to whoever 
 we may get a load for, or whoever we may be consigned to ; but we are 
 all now running in connection with some railroad-line that gives us 
 freight and takes our freight. 
 
 The Chairman. They give you a preference and you give them a 
 preference % 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir ; certainly. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. There is no boat-line, then, as I understand you, in- 
 dependent of any railroad-line? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. I do not know of any running to Chicago ; that is, 
 in the eastern trade. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Has not the Erie Canal some connection — some boats? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. They have connections, of course. You ship corn 
 to-day, and it is at your pleasure whether you have it go by rail from 
 Buffalo, or by canal. 
 
 The Chairman. If nothing was said about it, it would go over the 
 rail 'I 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir; but if you only shipped it to Buffalo to 
 make your own arrangements there, you could do so. 
 
 The Chairman. Does the Erie Canal have any agents or officers in 
 ihis part of the country to solicit freight for them 1 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. It only receives such through freight as is given to it? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir ; their rates are made in Buffalo. Freights 
 change from day to day. 
 
 The Chairman. Does the line make any difference in the rate when 
 forwarded by canal or rail from here to Buffalo ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir. I am not in the Buffalo business ; I am 
 only telling you what I recollect about it. If you would ask one of the 
 gentlemen who are the agents of the Buffalo line, perhaps they could 
 give you more details than I can. 
 
 The Chairman. They have lines there running here? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. In connection with Buffalo, but not of any canal 
 business 1 \ 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. No, sir. Now, for instance, you ship a cargo of 
 wheat ; it would want to go through by ca^al to Buffalo, and from Buf- 
 falo to New York. You only contract your freight from here to Buffalo, 
 which is as far as the agent of the New York Central, or any other Buffalo 
 line, will contract, and it is as far as you care to contract it, for yon 
 want to take the benefit of whatever rate there may be from Buffalo to 
 New York by canal. They do not give any through rate, but if you 
 wish it contracted right through by rail they will give you a through 
 rate to New York. It is, say, 33 ceuts to-day on wheat, but if you ship 
 a cargo of wheat to-day you may not know whether you want to send 
 it to New York or to Buffalo. You only get a local rate to Buffalo. 
 Before it arrives at Buffalo, if you conclude to ship it to New York, you 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 223 
 
 order your consignees in Buffalo to make the best trade they can, and 
 ship it by canal through to New York. 
 
 Mr. Davis. If your line sent to Buffalo, and I had determined after 
 getting there to send it by rail, would it cost more to send' than if I had 
 forwarded it through at once ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. They might take some advantage of it. Local are 
 higher than through rates ; they have no competition. From here to 
 ]S T ew York and Boston we have competition, and all have to take a cer- 
 tain rate. A man may demand one price at one time and another at 
 another. I have taken corn from here to Boston as low as 30 cents a 
 bushel. We get very little out of it at those prices, but at the same 
 time the local rate would be two-thirds if it was shipped at the point 
 where we carry it to. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Are you familiar with the rate from Buffalo by rail ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. I am not familiar with the Buffalo trade at all. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Now, taking your line, if it was shipped to Ogdensburgh 
 and not to Boston, at once, and afterwards sent by rail, would there be 
 a difference in freight 1 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. O, yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. How much ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. It would have to go at regular rates, whatever they 
 might be. I cannot give you the local rates, because I keep no track of 
 them at all, and I am doing nothing but through business. That is, we 
 have certain points all through New England that we make rate the 
 same as Boston ; they are all what we call common points. The rate to 
 Manchester, Lowell, Nashua, Concord, Salem, and all those points are 
 the same as the rate to Boston. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What are your Boston rates ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. The all-rail rate is 33 cents on corn. We have been 
 getting as high as 36 cents on corn through. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Then your rate to-day is a little higher than all-rail ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. It has been ; yes, sir. Our rates are nominal to 
 day, of course. We are doing nothing. 
 
 Mr. Davis. How long has that been the case 1 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. We do not have any fixed rate. We only work 
 from day to day. The rail have fixed rates. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there competition between your various steamer- 
 lines ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. There is no combination between them? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. No, sir ; there is competition. The reason that 
 we are obliged to make our rates from day to day is that there is no 
 competition. When we have a boat we have to fill her up at some price, 
 and we are obliged to take whatever we can get. 
 
 The Chairman. Has there been any combination of those various 
 lines ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know whether there has been any combina- 
 tion between the other lines? There are three lines running in connec- 
 tion with the New York Central, the Erie, and the Pennsylvania Cen- 
 tral. Now, do they ever enter into combination 1 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. I never knew them to. In fact, we are in compe- 
 tition with them. 
 
 The Chairman. I know you are in competition with all of them ; but 
 I want to know whether they, themselves, entered into combination 
 amoDg themselves, as against you ? 
 
224 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. O, no. , . 
 
 The Chairman. You compete with each one of them individually, 
 and not with the whole of them ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. I asked that question for this reason. It seems that 
 those three lines each run their lines of vessels. It occurred to me that 
 the agents of the railroads and the agents of the steamers on those 
 through lines would be very likely to consult together and fix their rate. 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. O, no, sir ; they work independently of railroads 
 in this way : If, to-day, local freights to Buffalo will pay a steamboat 
 better than the through rate, they are going to take it, and take it re- 
 gardless of the railroads. If I could get 25 cents for corn to-day atOg- 
 densburgh, and 40 cento to Boston, I should prefer to take to Ogdens- 
 burgh, and I should take it. There is no combination, so far as the lake 
 business is concerned. Perhaps we would have got along better and 
 got better prices if there had been, but we are obliged to take what we 
 can get when we want it. We have to take it. If freights to Buffalo 
 are 3 cents a bushel we have to take them. 
 
 The Chairman. You fix your rates, then, based upon the principle of . 
 demand and supply ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. That is all, and nothing else; and railroads fix 
 their rates and carry a certain length of time ; and when that time ex- 
 pires they make some new arrangement. 
 
 The Chairman. What is your estimate of the actual cost, exclusive 
 of the profits of transportation, between here and Buffalo per bushel? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Well, sir, I should not venture to make any esti- 
 mate in regard to Buffalo, but I should think that the actual cost, by pro- 
 peller, would be 4 or 5 cents a bushel. I do not know that I could fig- 
 ure it in that way either, because it depends a good deal on what you. 
 get back and what out-freights are. Sometimes it is one price, and 
 sometimes it is another. Now, the up-freights, some seasons, do not 
 amount to anything ; in fact, we do not get anything for carrying the 
 up-freights, any way. Comparatively speaking, they amount to nothing. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the average cost of the vessels of your line? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. About $50,000. Our boats are small ; they being 
 obliged to go through the canal. 
 
 The Chairman. How many men do you employ on each boat ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. The crew is about twenty or twenty-one. 
 
 The Chairman. What compensation do you pay them ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. We pay from $20 to $100 a month. 
 
 The Chairman. The hundred dollars a month is to your officers? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. How many officers have you 1 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. We pay the captain $100 a month ; the mate gets 
 $90 a month ; the engineer about the same ; the second mate $75, and 
 the deck-hands whatever we can hire them for — sometimes $50 a month, 
 and sometimes $40 ; the wheelsmen get $40 or $50. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the time of the round trip between here and 
 Ogdensburgh f 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Our time is about seventeen days. The distance 
 is 1,365 miles. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know the time for a round trip to Buffalo? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. They consume about ten days. Perhaps a little 
 more ; ten or eleven days. 
 
 Mr. Davis. You will receipt for your grain through from here to Bos- 
 ton, Lowell, and all those places at the same rate, I understand you? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 225 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. A difference of fifty miles would not make any difference 
 in your freight? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. 0, no, sir. 
 
 Mr. Oonover. Do you carry any lumber 1 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do you find it necessary to change your corn or your grain 
 at any time for fear of spoiling, sweating, &c. ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. We have not had any trouble of that kind in sev- 
 eral years, but we have at times been obliged to run through the 
 elevator. 
 
 The Chairman. What are the number of your vessels ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. We have twenty propellers exactly. 
 
 The Chairman. Three hundred, and fifty tons is the actual amount 
 carried, and not the tonnage of the vessel. 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Not the tonnage. That is the amount that we can 
 carry through the canal. Of course we can carry 450 or 475 tons through 
 the lake very comfortably, but the canal shuts us off about 75 tons, 
 
 Mr. Davis. By the increased size of the canals you expect to carry 
 your full capacity T 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. O, yes, of course. We could take 450 tons nearly 
 every boat. We cannot do as sailing-vessels do ; they take from twenty 
 to twenty-five thousand bushels of corn from here to Kingston. They 
 will get to the canal and they will get the elevator and light themselves 
 of 6,000 or 7,000 bushels, and then they will go through the canal and 
 take it aboard again ; but we are a passenger propeller line and calcu- 
 late to run on time, the same as a railroad, and we cannot stop, because 
 when we get through the canal we might have a large load of passen- 
 gers on board, and there might be two or three vessels waiting at these 
 elevators to get their wheat or corn aboard. We could not do that. We 
 must go right along. We have two boats a day leaving Ogdensburgh, 
 one for Chicago, and one for Lake Erie ; one leaving at 1 o'clock, and 
 one at 7 o'clock in the evening. We have to be on hand to leave- 
 that is, excepting in the fall, when bad weather comes on, when, of 
 course, we do not calculate to run on time, but we leave as soon as we 
 get loaded. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Does your route keep open, on an average, as long as the 
 Buffalo route ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir, we open a little earlier in the spring than 
 the Buffalo route on account of Buffalo harbor, and we run as late as 
 they do. We run through the canal a little earlier than Buffalo harbor 
 is open. It is hardly ever open from the 1st to the 5th of May, and we 
 always get through the canal by the 15th of April, and sometimes be- 
 fore ; from the 1st to the 15th. We calculate to get fitted out about the 
 1st of April, and then leave, of course, as soon as circumstances will 
 admit. Sometimes they are repairing the canal, and we cannot have 
 boats leave that end quite so quickly on that account, and we will not 
 leave here quite so quickly on account of the straits. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Why is Buffalo harbor so late in being open ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. It is the situation of it. The ice gets in there and 
 does not break up quite so quickly. They have not the wind to take it 
 out. It is not in the right direction. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. The wind banks up the ice ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir, it banks it up into the harbor and holds 
 it there. We are sometimes caused considerable trouble at Port Col- 
 borue, at the mouth of the canal. Very often we have the canal open 
 
 15 T s 
 
326 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 and ready for navigation, and boats get through into the harbor at 
 Port Colborne, and the ice will shut us in sometimes for a week and 
 we are unable to get out. It has happened, perhaps, two or three tunes 
 since I have been in the business here in the last ten or twelve years. 
 
 The Chairman. There is a line of boats owned in Montreal that runs 
 in competition with your trade ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. There is a line of Montreal propellers running to 
 Chicago. 
 
 The Chairman. I understood you to say that there never had been 
 among the agents of the lake lines any agreement as to prices of 
 freight? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. No ; no special agreement, and not any combina- 
 tion. We very often agree at a certain day to try and keep the rate* 
 up, and to do the best we can, but there is never any combination. We 
 always take the best we can get. 
 
 The Chairman. There is no pro-rating ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. O, no; no pro-rating at all; in fact, no combina- 
 tion. Our rates are made from day to day, and it is entirely different 
 from the railroads. 
 
 Mr. if or wood. Do you look to the rates by rail in fixing the rates by 
 water, as you rise and fall, day by day 1 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Well, the rail does not do that. The rail does not 
 rise and fall day by day. The rail fixes a rate for a specified time— not, 
 perhaps, for a specified time, but for an indefinite time, until they see 
 fit to make another rate, which we do not do. To-day rates may be 50 
 cents a hundred to New York. The railroads may get together and 
 make the rate 50 cents on fourth-class freight, or grain, from here to New 
 York. Now, that rate stays in force until they see fit to raise the rate 
 and then they^go np together. We do not do that. We, of course, have 
 to be governed to a certain extent, because on all-rail there is no insur- 
 ance, and we are, nine-tenths of the time, obliged to take considerably 
 less than all-rail, in order to cover the cost of insurance, and the time. 
 
 The Chairman. Your maximum or minimum rate would be regu- 
 lated by the rail during the time that theirs remains fixed ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir ; to a certain extent. 
 
 The Chairman. But fluctuations, in that time, would be owing to 
 other causes ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. It would be owing entirely to the demand. 
 
 The Chairman. When the crop is large do you charge a higher or 
 lower rate 1! 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. It depends on the demands for shipments entirely. 
 We carry corn many a time at a loss, and so does the whole vessel 
 trade. They do it where they are actually losing money, because they 
 are obliged to. 
 
 The Chairman. A gentleman, representing the railroad interests, 
 stated to us in New York that when the crops were large their rates 
 were higher. I wish to know whether the same rule applies to water 
 navigation. 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. I presume rates would be naturally better, when 
 the crops were large, than if there was nothing to do. They could not 
 help it. When we have nothing to carry, comparatively, we are glad to 
 get anything which will pay at all; but when we are filled up with grain 
 and there is a demand for shipment we get the best prices we can, and 
 when the rail is full, of course they increase their rates. They do not 
 now and they have not this fall. The railroads have got more than they 
 can carry, probably, from Chicago, in the next three weeks. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 227 
 
 The Chairman. As I understand it, then, you follow the same rule as 
 the railroads. When there is but little your rates are low, because you 
 desire to carry it f 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. We have to take whatever we can get and railroad 
 companies do not. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, when the demand is pressing, your rates go 
 up? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorp. Tes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any boats running in competition with the 
 railroad steamboats and lines, excepting the Montreal boats and the 
 Buffalo boats? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. No, sir ; there are no boats running wild at all. 
 They all have some connection, but they all work on their own basis. 
 If local freights are better than through freights, they take them with- 
 out regard to rail. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know whether the Buffalo lines are owned by 
 a single company or by a number of companies ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. I cannot tell you in regard to that, sir. I presume 
 that some of their propellers are owned by individuals the same as a 
 good many other lines are. Some of the propellers are owned by indi- 
 viduals, chartered by the line, and get a pro rata of the earnings of the 
 line. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. I understood you to say that the New York Central 
 Eailroad, for instance, has an agent here, and that the water-line run- 
 ning in connection with the New York Central has an agent here also ; 
 am I right? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. I do not think that the New York Central has an 
 agent here — not a special agent. „ 
 
 The Chairman. Now about this combination between the lines. 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Bailroads are all agents for each other to a certain 
 extent, and these car-lines are agents for the railroads, but I do not 
 think that the New York Central has one. They have a ticket agent 
 and a ticket-office here, but I think they have no special agent here for 
 the New York Central line. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, it is immaterial about that in any event. The 
 water-line has an agent here ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir. 
 . The Chairman. When he takes freight for New York or Boston, he 
 fixes the rate, does he not ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. He fixes the through rate. 
 
 The Chairman. That runs through the water and rail both ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir ; he has authority to make any rate he 
 may see fit. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any subdivision of those rates by water, or 
 rail, or is it just so much delivered in New York % 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. It is so much delivered in New York, but the rail 
 gets a certain proportion and the steamboat line a certain proportion. 
 
 The Chairman. That is what I wanted to get out. What is that 
 proportion ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. I could not tell you on the Buffalo line ; I am not 
 informed in regard to their division. 
 
 The Chairman. The rate is different, however, is it not? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorp. Well, I do not know whether they get fifty and 
 fifty, or forty and sixty, or thirty and seventy. I should think that 
 they got about forty and sixty, but I cannot say. The agents of the 
 
228 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Buffalo line, perhaps, could tell you. I am merely guessing at it in any 
 event. 
 
 The Chairman. How would it be on your line l 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. We calculate to get fifty and fifty. I believe that 
 is the division. 
 
 The Chairman. You carry how many miles 1 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. One thousand three hundred and sixty-five miles. 
 
 The Chairman. How far do they carry it by rail ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. From four hundred to six hundred miles. It 
 depends on where it is. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. What is the relative distance by water and rail on 
 the other lines, say by Buffalo "i 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. I think it is about eight hundred miles, between 
 eight hundred and a thousand or nine hundred miles. I have for- 
 gotten the exact distance from here td Buffalo by lake. It is nearly a 
 thousand miles. I ought to know but I have forgotten. 
 
 The Chairman. The division between you then of fifty and fifty is 
 predicated upon the distance of carriage, is it not? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Well, it is not predicated, perhaps, on the distance, 
 because we carry it a great deal farther than they do. It is predicated 
 upon the cost of transportation. We carry property on through rates 
 from four to six hundred miles, wherever it may be. The line direct 
 from Boston to Ogdensburgh I think is four hundred and four miles. 
 
 Mr. Conover. You carry it one thousand three hundred miles for 
 what they carry it between four and five hundred miles. 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Of course it is predicated upon the cost, but that cost 
 is estimated. I suppose distance is an element in it. 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do you know what it costs you at Ogdensburgh to trans- 
 fer from the boat to the cars through the elevator. 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. It costs us a cent a bushel for elevating. 
 
 Mr. Conover. At Ogdensburgh ? 
 
 Mr. Diefendorf. Yes, sir. Then wehave shoveling, &c, and it costs 
 about $3 a thousand. Then we have to pay $2 a thousand for trimming 
 here at the elevator before we leave. 
 
 Correction by Mr. Diefendorf. 
 
 "Chicago, September 27, 1873. 
 " Dear Sir : Will you please make the following correction in my 
 statement of yesterday. I did not mean to infer that the officers of the 
 rail line owned most of the stock. I meant that the management was 
 in the hands of the officers of the road. And as to cost of transporting 
 grain, when I said 4 to 5 cents, I meant to Buffalo by rail and not to 
 Ogdensburgh by steam. I should think the actual cost to Ogdensburgh 
 by steam is from 8 to 10 cents per bushel. Will you please make these 
 corrections and oblige 
 
 " Very truly, your obedient servant, 
 
 «B. DIEFENDOKF. 
 " Senator Windom, 
 
 " Chairman Senate Committee^ 
 
 Colonel D. C. Houston, United States Engineers, examined : 
 The Chairman. Colonel Houston, will you furnish to the committee 
 a history of what has been done on the Pox Biver improvement? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 229 
 
 Colonel Houston. I have a pamphlet which shows the situation of 
 the canal, which I here present for the inspection of the committee. 
 This work was started first by a grant of land by the United States to 
 the State of Wisconsin, abont twenty-five years ago, as near as I can 
 state it now, for the improvement of the Fox and Wisconsin Rivers, 
 and the work was commenced by the State, in making a canal connect^ 
 ing the two rivers at Portage City, and the construction of locks and 
 dams on the Fox Eiyer, principally the Lower Fox Eiver, as it was 
 called, to make slack-water navigation. 
 
 The Chairman. By the Lower Fox, you mean from Lake Winnebago ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. Tes, sir; to Green Bay. The State gave the work 
 up after a while. I cannot give the dates as I have not got them with 
 me. The State then transferred the work to a company known as the 
 Fox Eiver Improvement Company. That company failed, and it was 
 turned over to a new company called the Green Bay and Mississippi 
 Canal Company. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Did the State sell out to the first company ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. They turned it over in some shape or another. 
 That matter I have never been able to get at. I have never had occa- 
 sion to look it np. I think they gave them the lands— gave the whole 
 thing over to the company. 
 
 This new company carried ott the work, and in 1867 the Government 
 made surveys of the Wisconsin river with a view to tts improvement. 
 The people had then got dissatisfied with this work as it was conducted 
 by the company about 1867 and 1868, and they made a movement to get 
 the Government to take hold of the whole work at that time. That re- 
 sulted in the act of Congress of July 7, 1870. That act directed the 
 Secretary of War to adopt such a plan for the improvement of the Wis- 
 consin river as should be approved by the chief of engineers, and also 
 authorized him to appoint a board of arbitrators to find out how much 
 ought to be paid the Green Bay and Mississippi Canal Company for all 
 their property, locks, dams, &c, and canals. It also provided that all 
 tolls that the Government should ever receive from the work should be 
 deposited in the Treasury until the Government should be reimbursed 
 for all moneys that they should expend on the work. That act was 
 dated July 7, 1870, and the appropriation bill of July 10, 1870, appro- 
 priated a hundred thousand dollars for the improvement of the Wiscon- 
 sin Eiver. This money was to become available as soon as this Green 
 Bay and Mississippi Canal Company should file an agreement that they 
 would abide by the decision of this board of arbitrators that the Secre- 
 tary of War was to appoint. They did that the next year, 1871. They 
 filed this agreement, and we commenced expending this $100,000 on the 
 improvement of the Wisconsin Eiver, adopting the plan of constructing 
 the low-water channel of the river by means of wing-dams, cutting off 
 the lateral channel. 
 
 This board of engineers made an award fixing the value of the im- 
 provements of this company on the Fox Eiver at $1,048,070. They then 
 deducted from that the sum of $723,070. That was the sum that had 
 been realized from the sale of those lands. That left a balance of 
 $325,000 ; of that, $140,000 was estimated to be the value of the water- 
 powers belonging to the company and $40,000 certain personal property 
 of the company. That deducted from $325,000, left $145,000 as the 
 value of the canal's locks and dams. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Was that paid by the Government I 
 
 Colonel Houston. Yes, sir ; on June 10, 1872, by that act of Congress 
 that amount was appropriated to be paid by the company, and that was 
 
230 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 done. It was about a year ago. Now, that gives the whole thing to 
 the charge of the Government. , . 
 
 The Chairman. So the Government now owns and is running what- 
 ever there is available at the present time there ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. Yes, sir ; it now runs the whole thing. A portion 
 of these lands, which are now worth about a million of dollars, are not 
 sold. Those still belong to the company as a part of their property; 
 so that it has cost the Government about a million of dollars in lands 
 and money to get the work back into its own hands; and having done 
 that, last March they appropriated $300,000 for the improvement of the 
 whole line of the Fox and Wisconsin. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Do I understand you that the Green Bay Company 
 had to account for the lands sold, some $700,000, and then that they 
 retained the remainder of the lands that were unsold t 
 
 Colonel Houston. Yes, sir ; that is the way I understood it. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Lands that had been donated by the Government ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. Yes, sir ; they have those now. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know why they retained those? 
 
 Colonel Houston. I only know the act of Congress reads in that 
 way. I have it before me. I do not know why they retained it myself; 
 but I believe, however, that it is in accordance with the terms of the 
 law. It says : " These arbitrators" were " to fix an amount which ought, 
 injustice, to be paid to this company for the transfer of all and singular 
 this property and rights of property in and to the line of water-com- 
 munication between the Wisconsin Eiver and the mouth of the Fox 
 Biver, including whatever locks, dams, canals, and franchises, or so 
 much of the same as shall, in the judgment of the Secretary of War, 
 be needed, and to that end is authorized to join said company in appoint- 
 ing a board of disinterested and impartial arbitrators, one of whom 
 shall be selected by the Secretary aforesaid, another by said company, 
 and the third by two arbitrators so selected : Provided, That, in making 
 their award, the said arbitrators shall take into consideration the 
 amount of money realized from the sale of lands heretofore granted by 
 Congress to the State of Wisconsin to aid in the construction of said 
 water-communication, which amount shall be deducted from the actual 
 value thereof, as found by said arbitrators." 
 
 It seems that they were not positive exactly, but they fixed a certain 
 sum as the value of the property to the Government to take it — what it 
 was worth to the Government — and they then deducted from that sum 
 the proceeds of the sales. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Do you know the value of the land retained by the 
 Green Bay Company 1 
 
 Colonel Houston. I do not, sir. Those lands are not all sold. They 
 still have a land-office. 
 
 The Chairman. Your documents do not give the award of the arbi- 
 trators, do they ? I mean the language of the award. 
 
 Colonel Houston. It is here, sir, in their report. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. It is a very singular arrangement, to me, that they 
 Bhould be allowed to retain those lauds. 
 
 Colonel Houston. Well, I think the State found it could not carry on 
 the improvement satisfactorily itself, and they turned this whole thing 
 over to a company and gave them all the lands. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. If the State had the right to do that, then the Gov- 
 ernment ought not to have made them account for the value of the lands 
 sold. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 231 
 
 Mr. Conover. What is the length of the canal between the two 
 
 rivers f ,. , 
 
 Colonel Houston. The present canal is a little over two miles. 
 Mr. Conover. Is it in operation now 1 
 
 Colonel Houston. Not now. It has been allowed to shoal up. There 
 has not been anything done there now for several years. 
 ' Mr. Conover. They have nsed it ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. O, yes ; boats have gone through this spring. 
 Mr. Conover. It has been allowed to shoal up, you say ? 
 Colonel Houston. Tes, sir ; it wants dredging before it can be used 
 again. 
 Mr. Conover. The expense of digging that canal was not very great ? 
 Colonel Houston. No, sir ; it is all sand, and not very deep. 
 Mr. Conover. What is the depth of water in the canal when it is in 
 running condition 1 , 
 
 Colonel Houston. We have had as much as 4 feet ; just now there 
 are only 2 feet. The sand of the Wisconsin River flows into it ; it has 
 to be cleaned out occasionally. If it was used the boats would keep it 
 clear ; that is, if it were used to any extent. 
 Mr. Conover. How many locks are there in that canal? 
 Colonel Houston. One lock. There is a guard-lock on the Wisconsin, 
 and then they lock down into the Fox and lock up each end. 
 Mr. Conover. What is the fall of water I 
 Colonel Houston. Eight feet. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Are any of this Green Bay Company at Portage 
 City * 
 
 Colonel Houston; No, sir; the president of the company, Mr. Stevens, 
 is at Madison. ' 
 
 The Chairman. I see your report states the fact as to the availabil- 
 ity of the Wisconsin Eiver as to commercial purposes with these im- 
 provements. Have you any doubt as to its being made entirely avail- 
 able ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. No, sir. It can be made navigable for vessels 
 -drawing 5 feet of water. 
 
 The Chairman. Yon think there would be no trouble as to the shift- 
 ing sands! 
 
 Colonel Houston. No, sir ; I do not think there will be. It is a mat- 
 ter of so small expense, comparatively, to improve the natural naviga- 
 tion , that it is worth trying in any event ; and from what we have already 
 done, we feel perfectly confident that we can accomplish that. 
 
 The Chairman. There has been no through business done on that 
 route? 
 
 Colonel Houston. There was, years ago. There was considerable 
 business done through there before railroads. 
 
 The Chairman. Why did it fall into disuse ; on account of the fall 
 of water 1 
 
 Colonel Houston. Yes, sir ; and the improvements on the JFox Eiver 
 have not been kept up. 
 
 Mr. Conover. The canal cannot be made navigable for vessels draw- 
 ing more than five feet of water ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. It may be, but it is doubtful. It is not considered 
 to be a matter desirable to obtain more than that draught of water on 
 the Upper Mississippi tributaries ; it is not considered practicable. The 
 Upper Mississippi is only navigable in low water for about three or four 
 Jeet. 
 I wish to say that the work now is in the hands of the Government, 
 
232 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 different from any other work of this character, and the appropriation? 
 that was made last year is too small an appropriation to carry on the 
 work to advantage. 
 
 Mr. Davis. That was $300,000? 
 
 Colonel Houston. Yes, sir. Our lowest estimate for this work is 
 three millions of dollars, on the plans we have adopted. It would take 
 ten years at that rate ; and we would not be able to carry on the work 
 to advantage, and would have a great deal of dissatisfaction, which has 
 already, in fact, exhibited itself, because we cannot make much of a show 
 with $300,000 per year on a work of that extent. There are twenty-two 
 old locks on that improvement. Those have all got to be built in time. 
 Some of them will last several years, but the dams have all got to be 
 rebuilt, and the river dredged out, and four or five or six new locks to 
 be built. 
 
 Mr. Davis. I understand you that that three millions was for the im- 
 provement from the Mississippi Eiver to Green Bay ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. Tes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And that would make 5 feet navigation from the- 
 river to the lake? 
 
 Colonel Houston. Tes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Did you make a detailed estimate of the eost ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that in print 1 
 
 Colonel Houston. It will be next winter ; it is in the report to th& 
 Secretary of War. 
 
 The Chairman. It is not yet in print ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What will be the dimensions of that canal at Port- 
 age? 
 
 Colonel Houston. Seventy feet wide and five feet deep. It may be 
 arranged for six feet depth. The locks will all be arranged for six feet 
 deep, so that, in high water in the Wisconsin, boats drawing six feet 
 will always be able to go through. 
 
 The Chairman. There is no trouble whatever as to the supply of 
 water for either five or six feet ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Please state the size of the locks. 
 
 Colonel Houston. The locks are thirty-five feet wide and a hundred 
 and sixty feet long. With regard to the supply of water, the estimates 
 that were made show that there is a supply at low water of not less 
 than three thousand cubic feet, a second in the Wisconsin Eiver. 
 
 Mr. Davis. You could use the Pox Eiver also, could you not ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. Yes, sir ; but the Pox has a limited supply on the 
 upper river^ and we expect to draw from the Wisconsin in case of low 
 water. 
 
 The Chairman. Three thousand feet per second at low water, did 
 you say ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. Yes, sir ; from the Wisconsin Eiver. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you remember the elevation of the Wisconsin 
 above the Pox at Portage ? 
 
 Mr. Houston. It is about eight feet. 
 
 The Chairman. So that the whole volume of water could be turned 
 either way at that point ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. [Eeferring to map.] By whom was this map prepared 
 which is attached to your pamphlet ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 233 
 
 Colonel Houston. By Mr. Edwards, who was the engineer of the 
 canal. I think General Warren prepared the small map inclosed. 
 
 This canal has a greater capacity than the Erie. The locks are 
 larger, and we nse steam entirely. The canal is not more than six or 
 seven miles of canal on the whole route, and all the balance is the im- 
 provement of the river. It is slack water. The Lower Fox is a beauti- 
 ful river in the levels above the dams, having deep water. The Upper 
 Fox is a narrow stream. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Is the Fox a straight river ? 
 
 Mr. Houston. No, sir ; the upper river is very crooked. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. How do you propose to improve that by this plan to 
 straighten it ? 
 
 Mr. Houston. By dams and locks; We will make some cut-offs 
 wherever it is practicable. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. You follow the bend of the river, however ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. Yes, sir ; there have been a good many cut-offs 
 made already. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do you recollect the miles from the Mississippi to Green 
 Bay 5 I mean just as it is to be improved ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. Two hundred and seventy-one miles. 
 
 Mr. Conover. Did you state the amount of money which had been 
 appropriated for this improvement ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. Actual work by the Government, do you mean 1 
 
 Mr. Conover. Yes, sir. 
 
 Colonel Houston. Four hundred thousand dollars has been appro- 
 priated ; that is, since 1871. One hundred thousand dollars was appro- 
 priated in 1870, and $300,000 at the last session of CoDgress. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. And you think it will take $2,600,000 more to make 
 complete ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. Yes, sir ; the whole work has to be rebuilt. The 
 old locks are built of dry-stone masonry- walls, and protected by wood, 
 and we had to prepare some of them this summer. Some of them are 
 in pretty good condition, others are not. Several of them, however, 
 will last some years. 
 
 Mr. Davis. You use a part of Lake Winnebago, do you ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. Yes, sir ; nearly the whole length. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you the means at hand of making an estimate 
 of the size of boats or tonnage that can pass through ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. Yes, sir ; I think I have it somewhere. I will 
 look for it, and give it to you. I think the largest boats they have 
 used there are 300 tons, but no boats have ever been on the river that 
 would fill the locks. The boats from Green Bay to Buffalo are 500 or 
 600 ton boats. 
 
 The Chairman. How is that harbor at Green Bay ? 
 
 Colonel Houston. It is in very good condition now. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the depth of water 1 
 
 Colonel Houston. Boats have gone out drawing thirteen feet and a 
 half. Fourteen feet is the depth at which we are completing it now. 
 There has been a good deal of money spent there. There was $20,000 
 appropriated last year for that improvement. An entirely new chan- 
 nel has been made from the mouth of the river out into the bay. It is 
 about the best harbor on the lake now. 
 
 Adjourned until Saturday, September 27th. 
 
234 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Saturday, September 27, 1873. 
 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment. 
 
 The Chairman. Gentlemen, we have before us the Board of Canal 
 Commissioners of this State, and I will call upon Mr. Utley, who I be- 
 lieve is the chairman of the board, to make some statements to us iu 
 reference to their work. 
 
 Mr. Utley. Mr. Chairman, 1 hardly know how to commence, whether 
 by giving a brief outline of the condition of the canal, or how. 
 
 The Chairman. I was going to ask you, sir, in order to direct your 
 attention to what we want to know, what your position was ; how you 
 are organized, &c. 
 
 Mr. Utley. We are appointed by the governor and confirmed by 
 the senate, for two years, and have control of the canal, the improve- 
 ment on the Illinois Eiver and the Little Wabash Eiver. 
 
 The Chairman. Your jurisdiction extends over those lines ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. Tes, .sir ; all improvements owned by the State. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you be good enough ta state to the committee 
 the history and working of these water-lines in your State, so far as you 
 may be advised of it; their origin, the manner of management, and their 
 success or failure, and if failure, the cause of their failure. 
 
 Mr. Utley. The canal was commenced at a very early day ; I think 
 in 1836 or 1837 ; was it not, Mr. Anderson? 
 
 Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Which canal ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. The Illinois and Michigan Canal, reaching from Chicago 
 to the Illinois Eiver, at La Salle, a hundred miles in length. In 1837, 
 in the general crash, work was suspended, and all the works that the 
 State had engaged in, numerous railroads and the canals, seemed to fail. 
 English people owned a large amount of the bonds that had been issued 
 for the construction of the canal. In 1844 the proposition was made by 
 the English bondholders, or to the English bondholders rather, that if 
 they would advance sixteen hundred thousand dollars for the completion 
 of the canal, it should pass into their hands, and its revenue go with 
 what lands were owned by the State — the avails of those lands being 
 paid into the canal fund to re-imburse them, to pay the bonds, the inter- 
 est and the principal. The English bondholders appointed two trustees 
 and the State one. It was under their control until the 1st of May, 1872. 
 Previous to that the State had passed a law allowing the city of Chicago 
 to get out what is known as the " bench." The original plan of building 
 the canal was to give it an incline from the Chicago Eiver to the Des 
 Plaines Eiver, at Lockport, and then supply a portion of the water by 
 pumping-works at Bridgeport, at the commencement of the canal, three 
 or four miles from here, on the south branch of the Chicago Eiver. The 
 city applied to the State for permission to take out the bench — that is 
 the summit level — and give a constant flow of water through the Chicago 
 Eiver down to Lockport. That was a distance of about twenty-seven 
 miles that they deepened eight feet, at a cost of about three millions of 
 dollars. Then the city was to have the tolls, the proceeds, all the rev- 
 enues of the canal, to re-imburse them ; but the tolls and revenues were 
 not sufficient to even pay the interest. 
 
 After the Chicago fire, the State passed a law reimbursing the city, 
 and the whole tolls after that time were paid into the State treasury. I 
 have succeeded in finding a copy of our report, and the tolls of our canals 
 have not been very large, and cannot be until the Illinois Eiver is im- 
 proved. 
 
 The Chairman. Before you refer to that, I would ask if the original 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 235 
 
 design in building that canal was not to connect the navigable waters 
 of the Illinois with the lake ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. Yes, sir; that was the design. At that time there seemed 
 to be a great deal more water in the Illinois Eiver than there is now, 
 from the constant drying up and settlement of the country. Of course, 
 the committee understand all that. 
 
 The Chairman. Now please give us the reference to the tolls. 
 
 Mr. Utley. They have depended very largely on the stage of water 
 in the Illinois Eiver. Competition by railroads, of course, has some- 
 what interfered with the business of the canal. It has been the habit 
 of the Eock Island Eailroad to carry the great product of the country, 
 corn, at very low rates from competing points. For instance, from La 
 Salle the price of carrying a bushel of corn has been about 5 cents, and 
 frequently as low as 4 cents, and sometimes as high as 5J or 6 cents. 
 The average price would be about 5 — perhaps a little less than 5 cents 
 per hundred miles, the whole cost of transportation being about one 
 cent and seventy -five hundredths of a cent per ton per mile. 
 
 Eailroads leading out of Chicago, in other directions, have charged 
 about eleven cents per bushel for the same distance. I mean the North- 
 western. I am not particularly advised as to the Great Western ; but 
 it was much larger than the canal. Consequently they have been able 
 to get a good deal of freight. They have carried corn for 6 cents from 
 Henry, one hundred and sixteen miles from Chicago, to Chicago. That 
 was previous to the 1st of July last. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know whether the railroads have carried as 
 cheaply from any other competing railroad point as they have from this 
 competing canal point which you spoke off 
 
 Mr. Utley. No point in this State. The average charge has been on 
 all the railroads leading out from Chicago, except, perhaps, the Eock 
 Island, about 10 to 11 cents, or about 10 cents per bushel on corn for 
 one hundred miles, lMie price on the canal has been 5 cents, and on 
 the Eock Island Eailroad, from the competing points, about 6 cents. I 
 believe that is about the state of facts. 
 
 The tolls on the canals depended largely, as I said before, on the 
 stage of water in the river, the original design being to connect the 
 canal with steamboat navigation on the Illinois Eiver, but, as the coun- 
 try became settled, of course, the sources have dried up. 
 
 The tolls, in 1848, were 87,000. I will repeat only a few : In 1855, 
 198,000; in 1860, 138,000 ; in 1870, 149,000; in 1871, 159,000 ; in 1872, 
 165,000. Although the river has been exceedingly low, yet there seems 
 to be a gradual, constant increase in the amount of tolls ; though the 
 rate of tolls has been lessened. 
 
 The Chairman. What is your rate of tolls ? 
 ' Mr. Utley. Taking corn as a basis, it is three mills a thousand 
 pounds a mile. 
 
 The Chairman. Six mills per ton "? 
 
 Mr. Utley. Yes, sir ; that is the State toll. They were originally 
 four mills per thousand pounds ; in 1869 were reduced to three and a 
 half mills ; and in 1872 reduced to three mills per thousand pounds 
 per mile. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Is that the toll on all the canals in the State % 
 
 Mr. Utley. There is no other canal. The improvement of the Little 
 Wabash Eiver consists of one lock and one dam, making a navigation 
 of about thirty miles. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Connecting with the Illinois Eiver? 
 
 Mr. Utley. No, sir; with the Ohio Eiver at Shawneetown. The 
 
236 . TRANSPORTATION TO THE. SEABOARD. 
 
 Little Wabash empties into the Big Wabash at Shawneetown, a little 
 way above. 
 
 The Chairman. What western or northern connections do you make 
 with the Little Wabash improvement ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. None, but an interior town or two. 
 
 The Chairman. It connects, then, only with the Ohio Eiver, and not 
 with the other system ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. It has no connection with the other system of internal 
 improvement. 
 
 The Chairman. What has been the surplus over cost of maintenance 
 by your tolls ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. Without going back to reckon the last year under the 
 trustees, I think it was about $40,000. I can tell in one moment. Yes, 
 it was about $40,000. 
 
 The Chairman. On an income of what? 
 
 Mr. Utley. On an income of $149,635. The expenses were $108,695, 
 leaving between $40,000 and $41,000. 
 
 The Chairman. What is your proposed" plan of improvement of this 
 canal and river ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. Shall I not give you the net revenue of the next year ? 
 
 The Chairman. If you please. 
 
 Mr. Utley. In 1871 it was about $53,000 net, and in 1872, from tolls 
 alone, about $80,000. The net revenue, though our lands are mostly 
 disposed of, in 1871 was $40,000, and in 1872 about $120,000. 
 
 The Chaikman. I think you stated the tolls of those respective years, 
 but I have forgotten the figures. 
 
 Mr. Utley. The tolls in 1870 were $238,000. 
 
 The Chairman. No, sir ; I mean the rate of tolls. 
 
 Mr. Utley. The rate of tolls previous to 1869 was four mills on corn,, 
 taking it as a basis, per thousand pounds ; that is eight mills per ton 
 per mile. In 1869, it was reduced to three and a half mills per thousand 
 pounds per mile. In 1872, it was reduced to three mills per thousand 
 pounds per mile. 
 
 Mr. Davis. You spoke of lands. Those lands were donated by the 
 Government, were they not ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. Yes, sir ; in a very early day. 
 
 Mr. Davis. When was that, and how much was donated. 
 
 Mr. Utley. I am unable to state. Perhaps Mr. Anderson can tell. 
 
 Mr. Anderson. I think it was every alternate section for ten miles in 
 width along the line of the canal. It was as early as 1831. I think the 
 first survey was made on the line of this canal and the feeder in 1831. 
 
 Mr. Utley. The improvement of the Illinois Eiver was suggested 
 many years ago, and surveys made, both by authority of the United 
 States Government and the State government. 
 
 Mr. Davis. When did the canal come into the hands of the State ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. That was on the first of May, 1871. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Did the General Government ever make any appropria- 
 tion toward that canal in money ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Only in lands f 
 
 Mr. Utley. Nothing but lands. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Are any of the lands yet in possession of the canal com- 
 pany, or have they ail been sold 1! 
 
 Mr. Utley. There are a very few lots of small value ; a very few in- 
 deed. The larger amount of the land was sold maty years ago at a 
 small price. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 237 
 
 Mr. Davis. Will you be kind enough to give the size of the caual and 
 the locks, and what you consider its capacity ? 
 
 Mr. TJtley. The canal is 60 feet wide and 6 feet deep. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Sixty feet top or bottom ? 
 
 Mr. Dtley. Sixty feet on the top, with slope of one and a half to one, 
 making 42 feet on the bottom, and 6 feet in depth. 
 
 Mr. Davis. How about the locks ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. The locks are 103 feet long, I think. I have not the data 
 with me that I ought to have to answer that question. 
 
 Mr. Anderson. One hundred and six feet. 
 
 Mr. Utlet. One hundred and three feet, I think, and 18 feet wide. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What capacity of boats do you let through ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. One hundred and sixty tons. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do you experience any want of water in dry weather ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. No, sir ; we have plenty of water. We draw now from 
 Lake Michigan. 
 
 Mr. Davis. How much are your lockages ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. The • lower mitre-sill of the lock at La Salle is 145 feet 
 lower than Lake Michigan, making 145 feet of lockage. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Is that regular, so that you can get your supply from 
 Lake Michigan at all times. 
 
 Mr. Utley. At all times ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Through this cut ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. Yes, sir, through this deep cut. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Did you name what the distance was ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. It is about a hundred miles from Chicago— the canal 
 proper. I think it is between ninety-six and ninety-seven miles in 
 length. 
 • Mr. Davis. Do you know the cost of the canal ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. I do not. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Have you not some report that gives that data 9 
 
 Mr. Utley. Yes, sir ; but I haven't them at my hand, except the last 
 report of the canal commissioners. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. You will be able, however, to furnish the committee 
 with those papers 1 
 
 Mr. Utley. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. It is stated by Mr. Brain ard that a little over eight mil- 
 lions of dollars was the cost of the canal. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Utley, can you furnish us reports of your com- 
 pany, and of the operations of the canal in your State, for several years 
 past ? If so, it will save a great many questions that we would other- 
 wise ask you now ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. It is possible that we may find some old reports, but it is 
 rather difficult to get them. 
 
 The Chairman. Then I will ask you one or two questions at the 
 present time. Can you state ;the, relative economy of transporting by 
 the canal under the State management, and under the company man- 
 agement f I mean the comparative charges. Which is the higher ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. The tolls are less under the State management, and the 
 cost of repairs has been a little less under the State management. I 
 think I am right about that. 
 
 The Chairman. How are the net profits under the State, and under 
 the company management ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. The last year, under the management of the trustees, 
 the net revenue was about $40,000, and the last year, of 1872, under 
 
238 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 the State, it was about $120,000 that we deposited in the State 
 treasury, saving enough to carry us through the winter. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you tables before you from which you can 
 state the tonnage of the canal for several years past ? 
 
 Mr. Utlet. I presume I can rind that. I have here a table of the 
 articles cleared, on the Illinois and Michigan Canal, in 1871 and 1872, at 
 the lock at Henry. I have at home a statement of the kind you speak 
 of, which I will furnish to you. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you be kind enough now to state to us the- 
 proposed enlargement and improvement of this line ? 
 
 Mr. Utlet. I know of no proposition for the improvement of the 
 Illinois and Michigan Canal at the present. The improvement of the 
 river seems to be the great desire of the people, and the construction of 
 the canal from Hennepin, across to Eock Island. If you wish to know 
 what has been done in reference to the improvement of the Illinois 
 Eiver, I can state it. 
 
 The Chairman. We should be glad to know. 
 
 Mr. Utlet. As I stated before, surveys were made in an early day, and 
 a good deal of interest taken in the matter about 1867, and surveys were 
 again made. In 1865, 1 think it was, but I am not certain as to the date, 
 Congress made an appropriation of $85,000 for the improvement of the 
 Illinois Eiver and the dredging of that river. Little work was done, 
 and the money diverted by order of the Secretary of War to the im- 
 provement of the Eock Island rapids, as there was hardly a sufficient 
 sum appropriated to do much good. In 1869 the legislature of the State 
 passed a law making an appropriation of $450,000 for the improvement 
 of the Illinois Eiver by constructing a lock and dam below La Salle, or 
 between La Salle and Peoria, and appointed commissioners. Under 
 that law we were appointed, and we located the lock at Henry. It be- 
 came necessary then to have dredging done. In the same year Congress 
 had made an appropriation of two millions, I think, to be expended 
 under the direction of the Secretary of War, for the completion, repair, 
 or preservation of the various works of .the West. Under that law the 
 Secretary of War allotted $85,000 for the improvement of the Illinois 
 Eiver, which was expended under the direction of the then Chief of 
 Engineers in dredging below Henry. The plan agreed upon between 
 the commissioners and the Chief of Engineers was this : that wherever 
 locks were to be built, there should be a line drawn from the lower lniter- 
 sill of the upper lock to the upper miter- sill of the next lock below, and 
 the tops of the bars dredged off it ; otherwise we would have been under 
 the necessity of building the dam so high that it would overflow a large 
 amount- of country and entail large expenses upon the State. That 
 agreement has been carried out on the part of the Government of the 
 United States and of the State government. 
 
 The next year Congress made an appropriation of a hundred thousand 
 dollars. That was also expended in dredging below points where the 
 $85,000 was exhausted. According to our plans the size was about 350 
 feet long for the lock between the miter-sills and 75 feet wide. In 
 adopting so large a plan the reason was, not because the needs of com- 
 merce demanded a lock of that size, but the United States engineers 
 had determined that it should be of that size to pass gun-boats ; not that 
 gun-boats are 350 feet long, but to give 7 feet of water they must also 
 construct camels to buoy up the boats to pass them through. The 
 amouut of water that was determined upon was 7 feet in depth, and not 
 less than 3 feet wide at any point. 
 The lock at Henry and the dam was built at a cost of 8100,000. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 239 
 
 The last legislature made an appropriation of $430,000 for the con- 
 struction of another lock and dam at Copperas Creek, sixty miles below 
 the lock and dam at Henry, and, as I said, the State legislature hav- 
 ing made an appropriation of $430,000 and Congress an appropriation 
 of $100,000, and the appropriation made by the State government not 
 being available until $100,000 was accumulated from the tolls, we ap- 
 plied to the United States authorities to assise in building that lock by 
 putting in a foundation. The dredging is of comparatively small cost, 
 however, and the building of locks and dams is a large cost ; conse- 
 quently, they are far ahead of the State in their part of the work. The 
 United States authorities determined to put in the foundation of the 
 lock at a cost of about $80,000. The contract is let, and the work is 
 progressing. The foundation of the lock is to be completed by the 1st 
 of May. We hope then to have a sufficient amount of money, and we 
 have no doubt of it, to go on and complete the locking at Copperas 
 Creek. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the estimated cost of the improvement of the 
 Illinois Eiver to give you through connection from the Chicago to the 
 Mississippi ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. The cost of the system of locks, being five in number, 
 is estimated at about $2,200,000, and the cost of the dredging about 
 $430,000. And I will say right here, that the State legislature, in con- 
 sideration of the United States Government doing what they have done, 
 and what they propose to ask them to do, to complete the dredging, 
 have passed a law allowing United States troops, munitions of war, and 
 any other property of that kind, to pass forever free of toll, and have 
 obliged themselves to keep the work in repair. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the estimated cost of the Hennepin improve- 
 ment from Hennepin to Bock Island, with the feeder from Dixon ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. Before I answer that I wish to make another statement. 
 The distance from La Salle by the Illinois Eiver to its mouth, at Grafton, 
 is about two hundred and thirty miles. The fall is 29 feet and 4 inches, 
 and, consequently, by the erection of five dams we create a pool from 
 one dam to the other, making two hundred and thirty^miles of navi- 
 gable water 7 feet deep. In reference to the characteristics of the sur- 
 vey of the canal, .that canal was surveyed by the citizens in 1866 by 
 Colonel Hudnut, and his estimated cost of the work was $4,500,000. 
 
 The Chairman. That is for the Hennepin improvement ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. Yes, sir ; across to Bock Island. The length was sixty- 
 four miles from Hennepin to Eock Island of the main canal, and the 
 length of the feeder from the summit to the Eock Eiver at Dixon was 
 thirty-eight miles, making a hundred and two miles of canal 6 feet 
 deep and 60 feet wide. 
 
 It has been since surveyed by the authority of the Secretary of War — 
 I think, in 1871, by Mr. Lowe, under the direction of Colonel McComb. 
 His estimate of the cost, material, and labor, being cheaper than it was 
 in 1855 and 1866, is $3,899,000. I have looked over the estimates very 
 carefully, in consultation with Colonel McComb and other eminent en- 
 gineers, and I have no doubt three millions and a half of dollars would 
 build that canal. That would strike the Mississippi Eiver and accommo- 
 date the upper part of the Mississippi, and they would be enabled to 
 reach Chicago and save about two hundred miles, from Eock Island 
 down to the mouth of the Illinois Eiver. Of course a great portion 
 of Iowa and of the western portion of Wisconsin, and much of Minne- 
 sota and the western part of our own State, would be greatly accommo- 
 dated by the construction of that canal. 
 
240 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 The Chairman. It was proposed in 1862, in Congress, to enlarge the 
 Erie Canal and this Illinois River Canal to a depth of 10 feet, for the 
 passage of gun-boats ; what do you think of the practicability or desira- 
 bility of such a canal through here ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. I think it is very desirable that there should be a con- 
 nection between the Mississippi Biver and the lakes. A treaty stipu- 
 lation, which you know more about than I do, confines our United 
 States marine to a very small point on the lakes. I think it is very 
 desirable that the connection between the Mississippi Eiver and the 
 lakes be made complete. 
 
 The Ch airman. What do you think of the practicability of a canal 
 of that depth from here to the Mississippi ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. It would be very expensive indeed. 
 
 The Chairman. And not necessary for the purposes of commerce ? 
 ■ Mr. Utley. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. I have not had the good fortune to understand your 
 statements, Mr. Utley, for want of a map. Do your reports give the 
 cost of this construction — the percentage that the tolls have paid upon 
 the cost, the variation for each year of the receipts, and so on, so that 
 ■we, by getting hold of those reports, can have all that information 
 before us ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. So far as the Illinois and Michigan Canal is concerned, 
 we have all that data. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. I am speaking of the first canal which you spoke of. 
 
 Mr. Utley. Yes, sir ; we have all that data. 
 
 Mr. Davis. I understand you, that is the only canal now in operation 
 in the State? 
 
 Mr. Utley. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Except that there is one on the Wabash Biver improve- 
 ment. 
 
 Mr. Utley. Yes, sir ; that is a small matter. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Is that in the hands of the State ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Will those reports showthe amount that was expended 
 directly out of the State treasury, as well as the receipts from lands do- 
 nated by the Government ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. Yes, sir; I think they will, if you can find them. Some 
 of them are very old, but I think that they can be found. I will make 
 an effort, at least, to have them sent to you. 
 
 The Chairman. I wish to ask one additional question. How do you 
 account for the small amount of business done by this canal 1 It is situ- 
 ated in a very populous and very productive country, and I want your 
 theory. 
 
 Mr. Utley. My theory is, that no canal of so short a length, unless 
 under very peculiar circumstances, can be made to pay any profit. The 
 great advantage is to people living upon the line of the canal, in reduc- 
 ing transportation. Now, if we had perfect navigation of the Illinois 
 Biver, so that people could afford to build tug-boats, steamers, and 
 canal-boats to do the business, the tolls would necessarily be largely 
 increased. Then it would connect the great lakes with the Mississippi 
 and its branches, having more than fifteen thousand miles of steamboat 
 navigation. I think, sir, that its importance cannot be over-estimated. 
 
 The Chairman. Your theory of the small tonnage now is, that it has 
 no through connection ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. Yes, sir; that it has no through connection. 
 
 The Chairman. The Illinois Biver not being reliable. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 241 
 
 Mr. Utlet. That is it„ sir. To prove that, you can see that we have 
 had rather a wet season, and the tolls have vastly increased. The bars 
 in the Illinois River are so prominent that in many seasons above Henry, 
 where we constructed the last lock, there would not be but 16 inches of 
 water. Last week I sounded about Copperas Creek and Point, and 
 found but 2 feet and 1 inch of water, and now we have not boats enough 
 on the canal to do the business of the canal. 
 
 The Chairman. Those boats are furnished by private individuals on 
 the same principal that the Brie canal-boats are furnished. 
 
 Mr. Utlet. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Without your canal do you think that the railroad-freights 
 would be the same as they are now 1 
 
 Mr. Utlet. No, sir. If we had no canal they would be the same as they 
 were on other roads where they have not the canal to compete. Pre- 
 vious to the last law and previous to the 1st of July the charge was 
 about 10 cents for a hundred miles from Chicago, and about half that 
 sum by the canal. 
 
 Mr. Davis. You speak of previous to the recent law. What effect 
 has the 'recent law had upon railroad freights in your State generally ? 
 
 Mr. Utlet. Well, sir, I am not very familiar with the subject, but 
 from my observation it has increased the cost from some points and 
 decreased it from others. From points about a hundred miles from 
 Chicago it has decreased the cost, I think, somewhat, say 2 cents a 
 bushel on corn. I believe that is the effect on the Northwestern road. 
 On other property the difference is very slights-less than a cent a hun- 
 dred pounds. I am speaking from my own observation. On the North- 
 western, at Dixon, it is 45 cents a hundred for second-class freight, or 
 44 cents and a fraction. It was 45 cents previous to the 1st of July. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Are the railroads recognizing the right of the legislature 
 and complying strictly with the law that passed, or do they call it in 
 question and do as they please ? 
 
 Mr. Utlet. Well, sir, I am not thoroughly posted upon that point. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Prom an improvised map of the country, which I 
 have before me, I see La Salle is less than half the distance from Chi- 
 cago to the Mississippi. Do I understand you now that the commerce 
 over this canal has, none of it, been drawn from the Mississippi Eiver 
 through the Illinois? 
 
 Mr. Utlet. Very little, indeed, sir. During the high water in the 
 spring -we had, up at La Salle, steamers from Saint Louis, and from 
 Pittsburgh, and Cincinnati, but it was only during the season of high 
 water, which is very short. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. So this traffic has all been local ? 
 
 Mr. Utlet. Yes, sir; it has all been local. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. What would be the necessity of a canal from Henni- 
 pin to Eock Island, if the canal through the Illinois Eiver, with the im- 
 provements, were put in good condition, to transport the freight of the 
 Illinois to Chicago ? , 
 
 Mr. Utlet. It saves about three hundred miles of transportation for 
 two-thirds of Iowa, all of Minnesota, half of Western Illinois?, and all 
 of Western Wisconsin which desires to reach Chicago. The mouth of 
 this canal is more than two hundred miles above the mouth of the river. 
 The Illinois Eiver, you will notice by the map, runs for quite along dis- 
 tance nearly directly westward. Then, at Hennipin, in a south-south- 
 . westerly direction, until it unites with the Mississippi Eiver about forty 
 . miles above Saint Louis, and Eock Island is not more than thirty or 
 forty miles farther South than Chicago. 
 ' 16 T s 
 
242 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. How far is Rock Island from the mouth of the Illi- 
 nois ? 
 
 Mr. Utley. Over two hundred miles. 
 
 The Chairman. And the point of intersection on the canal and the 
 river would be above the rapids f 
 
 Mr. Utley. Probably so — \es, sir; I am not positive about that. 
 And with reference to that survey, it is supposed by everybody who is 
 conversant with the subject that a better line could be found. The time 
 was very short ; the engineers had but a very short period to explore 
 the country, and to secure the very best possible line which could be 
 found. On this Rock Island Canal, or feeder, there would be no locks ; 
 by raising the dam on the river at Dixon 2 feet. That gives the proper 
 declivity to the summit of the canal. The Mississippi River at Rock 
 Island is considerably higher than the Illinois River at Hennipin. The 
 lockage from the summit, westward, is about eighty-odd feet, and it is 
 over a hundred, eastward, toward the Illinois River, showing the coun- 
 try to be much lower at Hennipin than the Mississippi River at Rock 
 Island. 
 
 H. D. Cook, chairman of the Board of Railroad Commissioners, ex- 
 amined. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Cook, will you be good enough to inform the 
 committee of the nature of your appointment, the authority granted 
 you by the legislature, and the general outline of your duties under the 
 constitution of this State? 
 
 Mr. Cook. Answering for our committee, the first law passed author- 
 izing the appointment of a board of railroad commissioners was April 
 13, 1871. The duties set forth in the act were in brief something like 
 this: that the board was to examine into the general business transac- 
 tions of the various railroad companies, and the law also included the 
 warehouses in all cities having a population of 100,000. Consequently 
 Chicago was the only city in the State that gave the commissioners 
 jurisdiction over the warehouses, the storage of grain, &c, and the 
 manner in which it should be received and delivered by the various 
 elevators, with the right to fix certain rates, &c. 
 
 The first board was appointed in July. Their duties commenced, I 
 think, on the 1st of July, 1871, and they were continued in office until 
 March last. During that time they made reports as required by law to 
 the general assembly, in reference to the result of their labors; they 
 classified the various roads of the State under the law for passenger 
 fare, and performed all other duties, so far as they could under the law, 
 ascertaining the cost of the various railroads of the State, the number 
 of miles in operation and in construction; all of which is embodied in 
 the report of the board to the governor. 
 
 In March last the present board was appointed, or rather they were 
 not appointed, but they acted under the act of May 3d, 1873, which 
 was a law passed to cover points that had not been covered by any pre- 
 vious law. The present board have been acting under this law specially. 
 It provides that the railroad and Avarehouse commissioners shall make 
 a schedule of maximum rates of charges for the various railroads in the 
 State, both of freight and passengers. The schedules of rates under 
 the law are to be published as soon as completed by the board ; they 
 are now being published. Some of them have been issued. We have 
 an official copy here. It is the longest that will be published, including 
 a distance of five hundred miles. That is the greatest distance repre- 
 sented by any road in the State. 
 
 The board has spent their time almost continuously in preparing 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 243 
 
 these schedules since their appoiutment, and this shows the result of 
 our labors in that direction. I will leave this document here for the 
 committee, and they can examine it at their leisure. 
 
 The law requires that these schedules be published three weeks in 
 any paper in the city of Springfield, the capital of the State. They are 
 now being published from week to week for the various roads, as fast 
 as they can get them in, and the schedules have been substantially pre- 
 pared for all of the railroads in the State upon that basis. 
 
 The law provides that those schedules, after the 15th day of January 
 next, or ten days after the next meeting of the next legislature, shall 
 be taken and held in all the courts of this State as prima-faeie evidence 
 of reasonable maximum rates, thereby changing somewhat the burden 
 of proof from the commissioners, or the people, to the railroad corpora- 
 tions, to show that they are not reasonable maximum rates. That duty 
 would devolve upon them. 
 
 I need hardly say to the committee that, perhaps, a duty so broad, 
 involving interests so great, has seldom been imposed upon three men 
 in any portion of the country, and the effort of the board has been to 
 arrive at just and fair conclusions, as between the railroad corporations 
 of the State and the people. 
 
 It had no other object in view. In order to attain this object the 
 board has availed itself of all the means within its reach. Those means 
 consisted first of comparison of rates between the various roads in the 
 State, from the organization of the railroad system in this State down 
 to the present time, as well as the variations between the various roads 
 leading from different points to different points, both in and out of the 
 State. We also took into account the earnings of the various roads in 
 the State. 
 
 In addition to that, we have called before us some men who were 
 well versed in the railroad interests of the State and the construction 
 and operation of roads ; and we have also called before us leading ship- 
 pers of the State, from various parts of it, in order to determine from 
 their experience what rates they have paid from time to time, and what, 
 in their judgment, would be reasonable rates. We have questioned all 
 the men who have been before us upon that point very closely. The 
 result of this investigation is this schedule in part. Schedules which 
 we have prepared for the various roads in the State will not be all of the 
 same figures. I will, however, say, that there are some nine or ten main 
 roads in the State that the board could see no just reason why there 
 should be any difference in their rates of charges, and that schedule 
 will cover about that number of the most important roads in the State. 
 That is about the basis we have acted upon to arrive at the conclusions 
 which you will find embodied in that schedule. 
 
 The Chairman. On that point did you take evidence of the actual 
 cost of movement in the State '! 
 
 Mr. Cook. Nothing very definite in regard to that, except what is 
 embodied in the reports of the various railroad companies to the old 
 board of commissioners. We have a statement here, made up from a 
 report of the former board; and I will say here that the railroad Corpo- 
 rations are required to file th«ir reports each year by the 1st of Septem- 
 ber, setting forth in their reports the number of miles operated by the 
 company, gross earnings of the company, and also including the cost of 
 construction, its indebtedness, &c, and the amount of freight transport- 
 ed over their various lines, and number of passengers. Their report 
 shows that about 65 per cent, of the gross earnings of the road is ab- 
 sorbed in keeping irp the railroad and operating it. 
 
244 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 I will, however, say right here, that the present board is compelled 
 to fall back upon that report, from the fact that the various railroad 
 companies have not been yet returned for this year, and hence we have 
 been compelled to refer to the previous report of the various companies 
 made last year to the board. We shall, however, before making our 
 report to the governor this fall, have the reports of all the various 
 roads in the State, and our report to be made this fall will be based up- 
 on the new reports which will be submitted to us. Some of them are 
 in already, and some of the companies are asking for further time. 
 Those reports should all have been in, as I said, by the 1st of Septem- 
 ber, but they are now coming in pretty rapidly, and we hope to be able 
 to have them all very soon. 
 
 The last report shows on the 1st of July, 1872, 6,258 miles of railroad 
 in the State in operation and completed. It also showed that there 
 were in process of construction 1,587 miles of railroad, and that since 
 that time we have evidence to show very conclusively that three-fifths 
 have been put in operation, so that we can now safely say that we have 
 about 7,000 miles of railroad in operation in this State. The average 
 cost of these roads, as reported by the companies, is $42,264.48 per 
 mile. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do you separate the single and double-track roads! 
 
 Mr. Cook. Well, sir, we have no double-track roads in this State 
 complete. Some are now in process of construction. The Chicago and 
 Alton have commenced double-tracking their road. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know how they make up that cost ? Doesit 
 include the ordinary statements of the stock issued % 
 
 Mr. Cook. It includes the common and preferred stock, and bonded 
 and floating debt of the companies. 
 
 The Chairman. In making that estimate of course the roads did not 
 go into any statement as to the amount of money received by this stock, 
 but put down the whole amount of stock issued, and the whole number 
 of bonds issued as the cost of the road. 
 
 Mr. Cook. Tes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Ha\e they, in any ease, added their earnings to their cap- 
 ital? 
 
 Mr. Cook. I do not know that I understand the question. 
 
 Mr. Davis. For instance, it costs 65 per cent, to run the road, and it 
 might have cost half of that to pay dividends. 
 
 Mr. Cook. Dividends are not included in that at all. 
 
 Mr. Davis. But after the running expense and the dividends, some 
 of them call it surplus, and some carry to profit and loss; is that added 
 in your figures °l 
 
 Mr. Cook. The expenditure of an average of 65 per cent, is for oper- 
 ating and keeping in repair. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Working expenses ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir ; working expenses and repairs of the road, and 
 rolling-stock, &c. 
 
 The Chairman. If Mr. Davis will excuse me, what I think he means 
 is, whether the roads have been in the habit, in this State, of capitaliz- 
 ing their expenditures for construction and equipment. 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, I understand that ; that is embodying the whole in 
 the gross ; that is, including the rolling-stock, &c. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. And to the rolling-stock that is added from time to 
 time, as I understand you ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. The whole amount of capital invested, as reported by the 
 roads up to the date of the last report, is $254,912,563.45. That includes 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 245 
 
 the construction of the roads and the rolling-stock, so far as reported by 
 the companies 5 in other words, the total expenditure to prepare the 
 roads for business. 
 Mr. Norwood. Does that mean original cost ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. They claim $42,000 per mile as the representative cost of 
 constructing these roads. That represents the entire indebtedness of 
 the road. The amount of actual cash invested in these roads I have 
 never been able, as I understand, to fully ascertain. They claim this 
 amount of capital as representing these roads. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. What I want to understand is this : Do they mean, 
 Mr. Cook, that that is what the roads cost when they were originally 
 constructed, or what they stand them in hand now, including all ex- 
 penses, repairs, additions to rolling-stock, betterments, &c. 
 
 Mr. Cook. The repairs of the road, as a matter of course, are not in- 
 cluded in the cost of construction. It does include, however, as I un- 
 derstand from their reports, side-tracks, station-buildings, and every- 
 thing of that kind necessary to operate the road, to receive and deliver 
 freight, &c, but operating expenses embraced in the average of 65 per 
 cent, of these gross earnings of the road is for operating and keeping 
 in repair the road and the rolling-stock. 
 Mr. Davis. That is excluded, of course. 
 Mr. Cook. Yes,, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you able to state the average percentage of net 
 profits made by the roads in this State on their capital ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. We do that, of course, from their reports. The average 
 gross earnings of the road a mile is $8,108.06. Deducting the 05 per 
 cent., &c;, leaves a net earning of $2,789.18 per mile. That, however, 
 does not include dividends paid, but, according to their report, it leaves 
 a net earning of that amount to be used in paying dividends On the 
 amount invested. , 
 
 The Chairman. Dividends and interest on indebtedness 1 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know of no way by which we can arrive at 
 the actual cash cost of these roads % 
 
 Mr. Cook. We have been unable to reach that thus far. We can ap- 
 proximate only. The railroad companies up to this time have declined 
 to give exactly the specific amount of cash invested. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Have you made application to them for that informa- 
 tion ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir. We issued blanks, upon which they are required 
 by law to make reports. Some of the important questions, however, 
 they do not answer definitely, and give various reasons therefor. As 
 a general thing they claim that the best means they have of knowing 
 the cost of the road is what the road represents. 
 
 The Chairman. Prom your knowledge of railroad matters and of the 
 character and topography of the country, the cost of materials, &c, 
 what is your belief as to that representing anywhere near the exact 
 cost of the road ? \ 
 
 Mr. Cook. Well, sir, we think that it very much overestimates the 
 cost of roads in this State. I have had considerable to do with con- 
 structing roads in this State, when the Illinois Central was being built, 
 from time to time. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Let me ask you right there, when you say it is an 
 overestimate, what do you include in the estimate of the road ? Your • 
 opinion, you say, is that $42,000 is an overestimate of the cost of 
 these roads per mile. What do you include, in forming that judgment, 
 
246 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 or coming to that conclusion, in your estimates. 1 Doyo 1 ! mean the 
 original cost and equipment only, or do you add anything to mat ! 
 
 Mr. Cook. I suppose it is proper to say that it is generally under- 
 stood, or at least conceded, in this State, that railroad-stock has been 
 from time to time pretty largely watered— that stock Has Deen issued 
 that does not exactly represent the capital invested. 
 
 The Chairman. I understand the forty-two thousand represents the 
 roads as they stand to-day, with all their improvements, their rolling- 
 stock, buildings, and everything that goes to make up the existing 
 road i 
 
 Mr. Cook. Tes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, taking these roads in their present condition, 
 and from your knowledge of them, my question was whether yon 
 believed or did not believe that that was a correct estimate of the 
 cost. 
 
 Mr. Cook. I am very sure that it is an overestimate. 
 Mr. Norwood. What makes you think sol 
 
 Mr. Cook. Taking my knowledge of the construction of the roads 
 originally, I do not think the original construction of the roads in this 
 State would average a cost of $22,000 per mile. I know that a good 
 deal of the Illinois Central was constructed for a good deal less than 
 that. But, as a matter of course, that does not include ballast which 
 has since been placed upon a good many of the roads. Some buy gravel 
 and some buy stone. As to the exact cost of that, of course I would not 
 undertake to say. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Does it include the rolling-stock? That would have to 
 come in, would it not ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir, rolling-stock would have to come in. I know 
 several important parties, who were engaged in constructing the Illinois 
 Central, informed me at the time, when I was in the employ of the com- 
 pany, that a great many miles of that line were constructed, and the 
 grading made, and the iron laid ready for the cars, at a cost not exceed- 
 ing $16,000 a mile. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Do you mean "the cost to the contractors or to the 
 road itself 1 
 
 Mr. Cook. Well, sir, I was in the employ of the company, and I also 
 talked with the contractors, and also with men who superintended the 
 line after it was constructed and running. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. You mean, then, that was the cost of the road itself 
 —$16,000 a mile? 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir; and I presume a great many miles were built for 
 even less than that. Of course I would be willing to concede that the 
 average, including bridges, and perhaps expenses of cuts, and things 
 of that kind, would be larger, but I do not think that it could exceed 
 $22,000 a mile to get the track ready. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. If you have any opinion on the subject at all will you 
 please tell us how you think the railroads have made up the excess of 
 $20,000 a mile between your estimated cost and $42,000 which they 
 state ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. Well, sir, I have no knowledge of that except what is 
 gathered from their reports. I did not include in my original estimate 
 of the cost of the track when ready for the rolling-stock, a great many 
 things which they have since added— station-buildings and things of 
 that kind. I merely referred to the road. But I would include in the 
 $22,000 a mile the necessary station-buildings. Buildings were not 
 costly at the time. Of course they have built a good in anymore expen- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 247 
 
 sive buildings since the roads have been completed, and have been adding 
 from time to time. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Do their tabulated statements show the items that 
 make np this $42,000 a mile ? * 
 
 Mr. Cook. Perhaps it would be well for Mr. Pierson to read to the 
 committee a statment in relation to that. 
 
 Mr. Pierson. They give no items that make up that $42,000. They 
 say, " presume the road costs thus and so." 
 
 Mr. Cook. Hence we are to take their conclusions without any details 
 furnished by them. 
 
 Mr. Davis. It is the details I want to get at. 
 
 Mr. Cook. Well, sir, We are very anxious to get at the same thing. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Did I understand you have not been able to get at them 1 
 
 Mr. Cook. That is a point that the railroad companies in this State 
 did not desire either this committee or this board to have definite infor- 
 mation about. 
 
 The Chairman. What are the chief causes of dissatisfaction on the 
 part of the people with the present railroad management? 
 
 Mr. Cook. The chief. causes of dissatisfaction may be all embraced, 
 perhaps, in two classes : one is exorbitant rates, or what we term extor- 
 tionate rates, and unjust discrimination. The first, of course, embraces 
 excessive charges, that the railroad companies have been charging more 
 than they were fairly entitled to for the service performed, and I think, 
 as a general rule, the history of railroads in this State shows this fact : 
 that as the State has been developed and the business of the roads in- 
 creased, charges for freight have been increased. That is somewhat 
 reversing the general order of business. 
 
 In forming these schedules, I will say, right here, that nearly every 
 railroad man who has been questioned by this board as to the basis 
 upon which they make up their schedules of rates, told us very frankly 
 that they have no basis except to make a schedule to suit their trade — 
 that where they find a place where some money can be made, they make 
 it ; and the rule has been at points of competition to endeavor to secure 
 by a reduction of rates a proportion of the transportation business from 
 those points, and to make up the deficiency between those points. That, 
 of course, has excited a good deal of feeling in this State, it being looked 
 upon as unjust discrimination. For instance, here is a competing point. 
 Their published rates would be thus and so, but they have • paid no re- 
 gard to that ; and, in fact, the published tariffs of the railroads of the 
 State do not represent fairly, or anything like it, the manner in which 
 their business has been conducted. A distinguished railroad man in 
 the State remarked a short time ago that when he came~to look at their 
 schedule and then at their private contracts, and how they had been 
 doing their business, he discovered that hardly anything had been done 
 at their published rates. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Do they undercut? 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir, at these competing points they do ; and what the 
 people have complained o'f is this, that while perhaps the rates from 
 competing points, where various railroads center and terminate in Chi- 
 cago from the various parts of the State, some running off East, two or 
 three lines starting from a given point and diverging as they pass 
 through the State, and finally reach the same terminus Bast, there has 
 been pretty sharp competition at some points, and as a general thing 
 they have run the rates down to somethiug like a pretty fair rate, al- 
 though the leading railroad men in the State, I may say, stated before a 
 committee of the legislature, last winter, that they never made even 
 
248 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 special contracts that were not remunerative. But from these points 
 vou go ten, fifteen, twenty, and perhaps fifty miles, and from other 
 points, perhaps, ranging from twenty -five or a hundred miles, starting 
 from these competing points, freight has been charged more for trans- 
 porting it a hundred miles less, or fifty miles less, as the case may be. 
 In other words, j ust as soon as they would get beyond the reach of these com- 
 peting points, the tariffs have been graded up to about what they would 
 bear, and that is the kind of discrimination of which thepeoplecomplainin 
 the State. The law of May last was designed to remedy that, and 
 based, or supposed to be based, at feast, upon the common law, that a 
 greater amount should not be charged for a less service, or for trans- 
 porting freight over a less than over a greater distance of road. While 
 the law does not, perhaps, exactly pro-rate, yet they say it must be 
 something less, the distance being less, although the law admits the 
 discrimination on account of quantity, &c. And that is the basis upon 
 which our schedule is made up. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you remember about the average charge per ton 
 per mile of the roads of this State % 
 
 Mr. Pierson. Some of them do not give it at all. Some of them give 
 it in estimated gross quantities; and when they do give it, it runs from 
 a cent and a quarter to a cent and a half. 
 
 Mr. Cook. To go back a little at this point, it may be proper to say 
 that in the first place the railroad companies decline to make any report. 
 This has only been in operation some two years, and finally, when they 
 commenced making reports, they were, many of them, so indefinite and un- 
 satisfactory, that we could not possibly arrive at any definite conclusions 
 in reference to the general average of the cost per ton per mile through 
 the State. We have added several new questions this year in'our blanks 
 sent out to the various companies, and some of them, in fact most of 
 them, thus far, which have been coming in, have, been very satisfactory, 
 and they are gradually, I think, growing into a more full and perfect 
 report of the condition of the company. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What is your own idea of their average per ton per mile? 
 You haven't it, I understand you, officially, but you have some idea of 
 it yourself, I suppose. 
 
 Mr. Cook. We have done some figuring on that point. Of course 
 there is a difference in transporting various kinds of freight. 
 
 The Chairman. We mean fourth-class — cereals. 
 
 Mr. Cook. It will average, we think, from seven mills to a cent per 
 ton per mile, and perhaps a fraction over that. 
 
 The Chairman. The actual cost, do you mean — the money paid out 
 by them % 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. By the companies ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir ; that includes everything ; the use of their road, 
 &c. 
 
 The Chairman. The cost of running the train and keeping the road 
 and rolling-stock in repair 1 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir ; everything necessary to perform the service. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What is the average charge, in your opinion, through 
 the State I 
 
 Mr. Cook. I do not know that I am prepared to answer that question 
 exactly. [To Mr. Pierson.] Have you ever made an estimate of that t 
 
 Mr. Pierson. Not taking the whole of the roads into consideration. 
 Their rates vary so much that it is very difficult to tell. 
 
 Mr. Cook. We shall undoubtedly arrive at some definite conclusion 
 
TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOAED. 249 
 
 upon that point in our report, but as I stated to the chairman of the 
 committee yesterday, iu private, our time has been pretty much entirely 
 absorbed upon these schedules, and we have made a good many min- 
 utes, which we have left to be further considered. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Will that report be made between this and Decem- 
 ber? 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir. Our report is due on the 1st of September to 
 the governor, but it will have to be published after that. 
 
 Mr. Datis. You will probably send a copy to the chairman of our 
 committee ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. We would be very happy to.. We hope also to receive 
 something from the committee. 
 
 Before I pass on further in reference to this matter, I desire to say, 
 that the people have universally complained on account of the excessive 
 rates for short distances. I think no man can come to any conclusion 
 but this, that their rates for short distances, from one to twenty, forty, 
 sixty, or a hundred miles, have been excessive always. If you Lave time 
 to compare our schedule with theirs, you will discover that the great 
 difference between them and us is, for these shorter distances. In some 
 cases, even, we overreach them a little, but in making their schedules 
 they have not only done that, but, for instance, after transporting freight 
 a hundred miles, they will reduce largely for the next hundred miles, 
 and for the third hundred miles possibly increase largely. Now, we 
 think there can be no reason for that, and railroad men have generally 
 told us, that, after they have transported freight for one hundred miles 
 there is but little difference in the cost of transporting it another hun- 
 dred miles. In other words, at the end of each hundred miles the train 
 has to be examined, and a new engine fired up and brought out, and for 
 every other hundred miles it is about a duplicate of that transaction. 
 
 There is, however, one charge which I think should be a permanent 
 charge, and they have recognized that principle ; that is, a fair, advan- 
 tageous remuneration for the time occupied by a car in loading and un- 
 loading. That would be the same whether the freight was transported 
 five miles or five hundred miles. The time of detention would be the 
 same,, and hence they would be, of course, entitled to a fair and reason- 
 able charge for that on the start, which would necessarily make the 
 rates for short distances higher per mile than for long distances, after 
 you had reached a point where, as railroad men say, the increased ex- 
 pense could not be very much different from any previous hundred miles. 
 
 The Chairman. Did you encounter any difficulty on account of the 
 interstate commerce in fixing your rates? I mean commerce passing 
 from another State into, or thrtfugh, yours. 
 
 Mr. Cook. Well, sir, we have had a good many questions asked about 
 that. What we intended to-do in reference to that maiter was early 
 asked by some of the important companies in the State, and we embod- 
 ied our opinions in a circular which was issued, and which, very likely, 
 you saw. I do not know that we can say anything further upon that 
 point than what is set forth in our circular. That is the view we have 
 taken. The railroad companies, of course, have been free, and exercise 
 that freedom to ask all the intricate questions connected with the mat- 
 ter, and submitted them, while the more plain questions of the law have 
 been left unattended to. 
 
 The Chairman. What I meant was, have you encountered any prac- 
 tical difficulty in fixing it growing out of these constitutional questions ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. I do not consider it very technical, sir. We come to the 
 conclusion which we think based it upon the common law. It was pre- 
 
250 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOAED. 
 
 sented to the board as a question. Of course we did not claim the 
 right to make a schedule from Chicago to New York City, or from 
 Springfield to New York City, or from the west line of the State to any 
 given point in another State, or from any point outside of the State to 
 a point within the State. We merely claimed the right to say that citi- 
 zens of other States should enjoy the same privileges within our own 
 State that our own citizens enjoy, but we did not think that they should 
 have any additional privileges in this State over our own citizens, and 
 hence the commission said, in reference to that, that freight shipped 
 from a point without the State to a point within the State should not 
 be at less rates than our own people were charged, or freight was 
 charged from, for instance, the west line of the State to some point of 
 delivery within the State, giving the citizens outside of the State the 
 same protection against extortion within the State that we claim for 
 our own citizens. 
 
 And so in reference to freight being shipped from a point within the 
 State to a point without the State. We say that it should not be done 
 for less ;' for instance, freight should not be shipped from Chicago to 
 Indianapolis at less rates than our own citizens were charged from Chi- 
 cago to the east line of the State. And so in reference to freight pass- 
 ing through the State from Iowa, for instance, on the west, to some 
 point east of the State. We say that the charges should not be less 
 than from the west to the east line of the State. In fact, the principle 
 is reached in this clause of the circular ; also the charges from a point 
 west of the State to a point east of the State mast not be the same as 
 or less than the charges over the same road from the west line to the 
 east line of the State. The principle is that the charges for any dis- 
 tance within this State must not be the same or greater than the 
 charges for a greater distance. That, as we understand, is an acknowl- 
 edged common-law principle, and that is all we have said in regard to 
 that matter. We have had no test cases, as yet, in the courts, and have 
 not had time for them. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Is your board created by the constitution, or by ah act of 
 your legislature ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. It was created by an act. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What authority does that give you to fix rates for the 
 railroads ? Have you positive authority upon that subject 1 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir. I will read the eighth section of the act : " The 
 railroad and warehouse commissioners are hereby directed to make for 
 each of the railroad corporations doing business in this State, as soon 
 as practicable, a schedule of reasonable maximum rates of charges for 
 the transportation of passengers and freight and cars on each of said 
 railroads, and said schedule shall, in all suits brought against any such 
 railroad corporation wherein is in any way involved the charges of any 
 such railroad corporation for the transportation of any passenger, or 
 freight, or cars, or unjust discrimination in relation thereto, be deemed 
 and taken in all courts in this State as prima-faeie evidence that the 
 rates therein fixed are reasonable maximum rates of charges for the 
 transportation of passengers and freight and cars upon the railroads 
 for which said schedules may have been respectively prepared." That 
 is the authority under which the board prepared these schedules. 
 
 There is also a provision in the act, "Provided, That the schedules 
 thus prepared shall be taken as prima-facie evidence, as herein provided, 
 until schedules shall have been prepared and published as aforesaid for 
 all the railroad companies now organized under the laws of this State, 
 and until the fifteenth day of January, eighteen hundred and seventy- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 151 
 
 four, or until ten days after the meeting of the next session of this gen- 
 eral assembly : provided, a session of the general assembly shall be held 
 previous to the fifteenth day of January aforesaid." The constitution of 
 this State requires the passage of a law embracing those principles. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do the railroads as a rule recognize your tariffs which 
 you have made, and charge by it, or do they resist it"? 
 
 Mr. Cook. We have no official information of that -fact. The railroad 
 companies, as a matter of course, resist any law looking to controlling 
 them in that direction. Many of them, however, state that they are 
 going to abide by the law after the first of July ; but their construction 
 of the law is evidently to render it odious, without any intention what- 
 ever, I have no hesitation in saying, of complying with that law; the- 
 object being, as I say, to render the law odious and secure its repeal; 
 and in fact to abrogate -every law, leaving' them as they always have 
 been heretofore. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Have there been any suits adjudicated yet, as to the right 
 of the legislature to regulate the tolls of the railroad 1 
 
 Mr. Cook. There has been one suit determined by the supreme court 
 of this State. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. That is the case that has gone to the United States 
 Supreme Court ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. No, sir ; none to the United States Supreme Court. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Has not that case gone up ! 
 
 Mr. Pierson. No, sir ; it went to the supreme court of our own State, 
 which set the law aside — 1 mean the old law, which the last legislature 
 repealed. No case has ever gone to the United States Supreme Court. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Has any case ever gone through either of your courts 
 under the present act? 
 
 Mr. Pierson. No, sir. We do not wish to be understood that the 
 legislature has given us the right to fix rates for these companies. That 
 is not in the law, if you understand it so. That is not what we under- 
 stand. We do not fix rates, but fix a schedule which shall be taken in 
 courts as prima-facie evidence of a reasonable rate. 
 
 Mr. Cook. That law and those rates are maximum rates. They are 
 not minimum rates. They leave the company to discriminate as they 
 please under the law, except that the discrimination is not an unjust 
 one, and what we would consider an unjust discrimination under the 
 law would be to carry from a given point to a given point an equal quan- 
 tity of freight of the same class in the same direction, and one rate for 
 one individual and for another individual another rate. In other words,, 
 if the railroad company should decide to carry freight to Chicago for one 
 individual a hundred miles at a given rate below ours, every other in- 
 dividual would be entitled to the same privilege under the law for a like 
 quantity and quality of freight in the same direction for the same dis- 
 tance. . 
 
 The Chairman. Just at that point I wish to ask you whether, after 
 making these comparisons of rates, and in fixing upon your maximum, 
 you have endeavored to fix the maximum as low as you thought would 
 be just to the roads and to the community. That is, have you sought 
 to fix as low a maximum as you thought the road could make reasonable 
 profits under 1 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir. We understand that there is reasonable room for 
 competition under our schedules. We fixed our rates not so low as we 
 believed freight could be carried for, but we fixed what we deemed, un- 
 der the circumstances and present lights we have before us, and the 
 course we have adopted to arrive at our conclusions as to what we be- 
 
252 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 lieved to be reasonable maximum of rates. We thought that anything 
 above that would be extortion. 
 
 ■ Mr. Davis. If I understand you right, you do not pretend to fix the 
 railroad tariff. You fix a general tariff for the State, which is taken in 
 evidence if a case is carried through the courts. 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir. It is to prevent extortion and unjust discrimina- 
 tion. The roads may carry as much lower as they please, so that they 
 do not unjustly discriminate between shippers. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. As I understand it, this is simply to furnish evidence 
 in a case to determine what the lawyers call a quantum meruit, in case 
 of a contest between the shipper and the road ; that the roads, accord- 
 ing to your schedule, ought not to be allowed to recover more than your 
 schedule, because that is a fair compensation 1 ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir ; that is it. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. And it rests, then, on the common-law principle, that 
 a man can recover what his services are worth ; that is the idea, is it? 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir ; that is it exactly. Of course these schedules do 
 not fully determine the case. You may introduce evidence of fact. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Yes, I understand that. It is evidence to go to a jury, 
 as a reasonable maximum charge that the roads should make, and that 
 that would be a fair compensation for the services rendered, and to pre- 
 vent them from putting on the charges, because they have the power to 
 do so. 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir ; and we, when we get into court, if the railroad 
 companies can show to the satisfaction of the jury that our rates are not 
 reasonable maximum rates, of course would be beaten. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. And then, of course, they could recover more. 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir; that is, we could not convict them of extortion 
 under the law. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. That saves me from asking you several other ques- 
 tions about the authority under which you are acting. I wanted to get 
 at that clause of your constitution which clothed the legislature with 
 power to pass such a law ; because it struck me as being rather singular 
 that your constitution should embrace such a clause affecting railroads 
 which had already been chartered. 
 
 Mr. Cook. The decision of the court in the case which was tried 
 embraces the authority embodied in this law fully ; that, notwithstand- 
 " ing what the charter of a company may be, yet the common-law princi- 
 ple requires that men should deal fairly ; that they cannot be allowed to 
 charge more than a reasonable rate for a given amount of service. That, 
 I think, is recognized everywhere. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Then the object of your board is to furnish a rule of 
 evidence as to what are reasonable rates 1 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir ; and these schedules being made prima-facie evi- 
 dence changes the burden of proof from the board to the company, re- 
 quiring them to show that they are not reasonable. 
 
 Mr. Davis. In your examination have you found that the charters of 
 the railroad companies fixed a maximum rate ? • 
 
 Mr. Cook. No, sir. Possibly recently there may have been something 
 different in the charters ; but, I think, as a general thing, the railroads 
 chartered by the authority of this State are allowed to make rates and 
 charges of their own. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Without a limit by law ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir. I do not think there is any restriction in the 
 charters. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 253 
 
 Mr. Davis. In many other States it is different, and the charter makes 
 a maximum rate. 
 
 Mr. Cook. Well, sir, that is not true of our State. 
 
 Mr. Davis. You recollect, for instance, the New York Central has 2 
 cents fixed as its extreme charge per mile. 
 
 Mr. Cook. Was that in the original charter of that road ? 
 
 Mr. Dayis. Yes, sir ; I am so told. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. O, no ; it was not in the original charter. 
 
 Mr. Cook. I was in New York State when that road was chartered 
 and built, and I do not remember ever having heard that 2 cents 
 was fixed in the charter as a maximum charge for the company. I know 
 they used to charge a good deal more than that. 
 
 The Chairman. That is all they can charge now under the law con- 
 solidating the companies. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. (To Mr. Cook.) Can you state what percentage of re- 
 duction your board has made in rates that are charged now by your 
 railroads 1 
 
 Mr. Cook. No, sir; we have not aggregated the matter. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Can you state what is the total capital stock of the 
 roads through your State 1 ? Have you any tabular statements in regard 
 to that? I remember the statement you made, but that did not cover 
 my question. I want to know what is the total capital stock of the 
 roads. 
 
 Mr. Cook. This report is of course based upon the reports of the 
 various railroad companies. It is made up of four different items: 
 preferred stock, $8,155,199.68 ; common, stock, $131,970,864.60 ; 
 bonded debt, $111,456,325.97; floating debt, $3,330,173.22, represent- 
 ing $254,912,566.45. That is the report of the companies. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. That does not answer my question. It does not give 
 separate items. 
 
 Mr. Cook. The common stock and preferred stock would be in the 
 first two items. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Do you know what percentage of the stock has been 
 watered as it is called in your State ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. No, sir, I do not. I do not know of any party who can 
 give you that information, except the railroads themselves, and if they 
 will not give it I do not know how you are to get it. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Have you propounded that inquiry to them in your 
 investigations? 
 
 Mr. Cook. We propounded questions in our blanks to that effect. 
 
 Mr. Pierson. We asked the Illinois Central the amount of stock 
 issued as stock dividends, and dates of issue, and they replied to that 
 " no stock dividends made since the passage of the act establishing 
 . a board ,of railroad and warehouse commissioners." Their own re- 
 port now shows that their stock was about eight or nine millions more 
 tban when they started their road. 
 
 Mr. Cook. You can see that they avoid those questions in various 
 ways. The one that Mr. Pierson has stated is perhaps a fair sample of 
 the manner in which they get around those questions. 
 
 The Chairman. A single word with reference to the warehouse 
 branch of your jurisdiction. Have you taken any steps to change or 
 regulate that in any way ; and, if so, how ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir. They are operating to a certain extent, at least, 
 under rules and regulations prepared by this board. The same difficulty 
 to some extent, however, is found in bringing their business under the 
 special control and direction of the board. 
 
254 TRANSPOSITION TO THE SEABOAED. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you fixed any maximum charges for elevators 
 and warehouses ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. The law fixes that. 
 
 Mr. Pieeson. The law of the State is 2 cents for the first twenty days 
 and 1 cent for every ten days. Our law is 2 cents for thirty days and 
 1 cent for every additional. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Does the law fix the rates of transferring from car to 
 boat? 
 
 Mr. Pieeson. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Cook. I would say to the committee that if we had had longer 
 notice in reference to this matter it would have been better. The board 
 had adjourned when we got the telegram of your chairman to come 
 here, and we were about to disperse and go to our homes, and had other 
 business in view. We were anxious, however, to see the committee. 
 
 Mr. Pieeson. I find that the cost of receiving and delivering, the 
 first thirty days, or part thereof, is 2 cents a bushel ; and for each fif- 
 teen days, or part thereof, after the first thirty days, is one-half of 1 
 cent. Their charge is the same now, except that they ask 2 cents for 
 twenty days, and a half a cent for ten days. There is where the differ- 
 ence is ; and we are trying now, by the courts, to force them to come to 
 our rates. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Does that include cars and boats ? 
 
 Mr. Pieeson. Yes, sir.; either way that is the maximum. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Is that the general charge here ; is that what they are 
 working under now ; is it a current rate here ? 
 
 Mr. Pieeson. Yes, sir. « 
 
 The Ohaieman. No distinction is made as between cars and vessels. 
 
 Mr. Pieeson. The rate that the law prescribes is not the rate they 
 are working under. They claim the same storage for twenty as the law 
 allows them for thirty days. 
 
 Mr. Davis. I understand that it costs 2 cents for grain in tranferring 
 here, let it go by cars or boats, in going through the elevators. 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir; for twenty days. Even if it is transferred 
 through it is the same. 
 
 Mr. Conovee. If there is no stoppage or storage at all it is the same 
 price, is ic not ? If it goes through the elevator it is the same ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir ; even if it is received and transferred the same 
 day. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Does all grain that arrives by cars or by boat, and goes 
 away, necessarily have to go through an elevator ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. During the water navigation it may be transferred by 
 floaters, or otherwise, transferring it by boats to the river ; or boats may 
 haul up alongside ; but I suppose the quickest way is to put it through 
 an elevator. 
 
 Mr. Davis. All that comes in cars and goes away in boats must go 
 through an elevator, must it f I mean arriving in cars and departing in 
 boats. 
 
 Mr. Cook. I do not know that it would be so necessarily, but it is 
 best that it be so ; and that is a system which every shipper would de- 
 sire to avail himself of, because it is the quickest way, and undoubtedly 
 the least expense in transferring. You can unload a train of cars within 
 ten minutes. I would also like to have the committee understand that 
 there is still an additional expense in the transfer of grain here, which 
 is for the inspection. That is done by the State ; and the general rate 
 fixed by law for inspection is, on an average, about 50 cents a thousand 
 bushels. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 255 
 
 Mr. Davis, [s it optional with the owner to have it inspected ; or 
 must it be inspected ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. The elevators have no right to receive grain and mix it 
 without inspection. They have no right to .deliver grain from their 
 houses without inspection. If a party ships grain here, and does not 
 desire it to be inspected, it can be placed in a separate bin in the ware- 
 house, but cannot be mixed with other grain. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What did I understand that charge, was, added to the 2 
 cents 1 
 
 Mr. Cook. About 50 cents a thousand bushels for inspection. 
 
 Mr. Davis. I would like to ask one more question in regard to that 
 elevator. They charge, I understand it, at Oswego, and at Montreal, 
 perhaps, about half a cent, and a cent at Buffalo. Why does it cost 2 
 cents here and 1 cent there ? Is there any reason for it ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. The law provides that a revenue shall be raised from that 
 source only sufficient to defray the expense of the service. 
 
 Mr. Davis. The storage I am talking about. 
 
 Mr. Cook. Oh, I thought you had reference to the inspection. 
 
 Mr. Davis. No ; I mean the transfer, in other words. 
 
 Mr. Cook. Well, sir, I do not know that there is any reason for that. 
 I see no reason why grain may not be transferred here as cheaply as at 
 Oswego, or at any other point. I think we have as good .elevators as can 
 be found in the country. 
 
 Mr. Conover. How long do they generally keep the grain stored up 
 before it is transferred out of the elevator ? 
 
 Mr. Pierson. In the winter they will keep it four months, sir. 
 
 Mr. Cook. That depends a great deal on the market. 
 
 Mr. Conover. In Buffalo the charge is a cent and a quarter, and 
 grain can be kept in the elevator for five days. They say that they 
 charge a cent and a quarter, and nothing for storage. 
 
 Mr. Pierson. Then when it came to thirty days they would get it up 
 as high as our own rates are here. 
 
 Mr. Conover. The question is whether it is not some advantage to 
 the shipper by having a lesser price for five days. There certainly 
 would be at more seasons of the year. 
 
 Mr. Cook. The same element that I named in reference to railroads 
 making their rates for a short distance, that is, getting the money pretty 
 soon, is urged in this storage business of 2 cents for twenty days ; yet, 
 if I put grain in to-day and take it out to-morrow it is 2 cents. So that 
 it embodies the same principle in fact if it is not put in the bin at all, 
 and only passes through a warehouse ; and if the transfer is made in 
 time, within twenty days, it is 2 cents. 
 
 Mr. Conover. And for the same thing at Buffalo they charge a cent 
 and a quarter. Now, is it not of course an advantage having it at a 
 lesser rate during a good part of the season % 
 
 Mr. Cook. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Conover. Could that not be done as cheaply here on the same 
 basis as it is at Buffalo ? 
 
 Mr. Cook. Well, I know no reason why it could not be done, I am 
 sure. 
 
 J. M. Walker, president of the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Road, 
 
 examined ; 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Walker, we are in pursuit of all information we 
 can obtain on all sides in reference to this transportation question, and 
 we have invited you among other gentlemen here to enlighten us in 
 that reeard. 
 
156 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABpARD. 
 
 Mr. Walker. Well, sir, I do not know how much light I can give 
 you upou that subject, but any information I can afford it will give me 
 pleasure to do so. 
 The Chairman. Will you please give us the termini of your road? 
 Mr. Walker. Do you speak of the road in Illinois, or our entire 
 road ? 
 The Chairman. Of the road under your control. 
 Mr. Walker, One of the eastern termini is Chicago. Another is at 
 Peoria. These are the two eastern termini of the line of road which 
 we operate. The western termini are various. The farthest western 
 termini is at Omaha. One is at Clinton, on the Mississippi River, aDd 
 another is at Burlington, if you are pleased to call that a termini, and 
 another at Quincy. We have then some branches leading off to other 
 points in the State, and in the State of Iowa. 
 The Chairman. Do you remember the entire mileage of your road ? 
 Mr. Walker. It is about eight hundred and twenty-five miles in this 
 State,. and between thirteen and fourteen hundred miles in all, that is, 
 the main track. The entire length of track, including side-tracks, I 
 suppose is some sixteen hundred miles. I give it in round numbers, 
 but could furnish a detailed statement from the records. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you ever made any estimates of the actual cost 
 of transportation over your road, exclusive of dividends and interest on 
 bonds, the actual outlay 1 I mean by cost, the cost of the running and 
 maintenance of road and repairs of cars. 
 
 Mr. Walker. That all appears in our annual report, sir. I did not 
 bring one with me, but I can give you all those items. They vary, of 
 course, from year to year. That question now I suppose means what are 
 the net receipts. 
 
 The Chairman. Eb; what I meant was, what is the average cost per 
 ton per mile ? 
 Mr. Walker. It was a cent and three-tenths last year. 
 The Chairman. That included all kinds of freights ? 
 Mr. Walker. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. That is, your working expense was one cent and three- 
 tenths per mile run. 
 Mr. Walker. Per ton per mile. 
 
 The Chairman. That includes everything except the payment of 
 interest and dividends on the cost of the road ? 
 Mr. Walker. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What was the working expense, the per cent, of your 
 earning"? 
 
 Mr. Walker. Sixty-five per cent. ; that is, about that. I can give 
 it exactly if you wish it. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you remember the charges per ton per mile on 
 your road ? , 
 
 Mr. Walker. Those vary, sir. At my office I could give you the 
 average. I had occasion to investigate that subject a few days ago. 
 My attention was called to it, and I looked to see how the people of Illi- 
 nois were taxed, in reference to transportation, as compared with other 
 States and with European countries. 
 The Chairman. Have you the result of that examination ? 
 Mr. Walker. I have, sir ; but I left it at my office. I can, however, 
 state the result. It was that the produce of this country was carried 
 cheaper by about one-third, or between a half and a third, than in Eng- 
 land, Germany, or France; one-half cheaper than in the Southern 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 257 
 
 States, and cheaper than in the New Ed gland States. 'I shall be glad 
 to furnish the figures to you, aud have thern in a form that I can do so. 
 
 About the same result is found to exist in refereuce to passenger 
 transportation. The people of this State are riding cheaper than almost 
 anywhere in the world. You will except from this two or three of the 
 trunk roads. The New York Central charges 2 cents per mile, but that 
 is partially made up, of course, by drawing-room cars and things of that 
 sort. Taking that road and some of the trunk roads out, the statement 
 I make to you is entirely correct. Yet, I think, if you take the two 
 roads and compare them, taking the New York Central with its im- 
 mense passenger traffic and compare it with the Illinois roads with its 
 comparatively sparse population and light traffic, it will be found that 
 we are carrying cheaper than they are, because, as you know, the cost 
 of transportation has reference always to the amount, th'e magnitude 
 of business. 
 
 The Chairman. You, of course, being engaged in the operation of 
 railroads in this State are aware of the points complained of against 
 railroad management; what do you understand them to be? 
 
 Mr. Walkek. Well, sir, it is summed up in what I have already 
 stated. The complaint is extortion. That means if we charge any 
 more than we ought we are doing a wrong upon the people. Now, 
 whether that is true or not is a question of fact that has never been in- 
 vestigated in this State. I think very little attention has been paid by 
 the railroad commissioners to that question. There are various ways of 
 getting at whether that is true or not. I have stated to you one. The 
 comparison I have made with European countries, where everything 
 which enters into the maintenance, construction, and operation of a rail- 
 road is very much less than here. I presume, without accurate figures, 
 that the cost was one-third less, nearly, than in this country, and yet, in 
 view of that, we are absolutely carrying property and persons cheaper 
 than they do there. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you mean you carry freight for less per ton per 
 mile? 
 
 Mr. Walker. Yes, sir ; and passengers for less per ton per mile. 
 
 The Chairman. Without regard to distance ? 
 
 Mr. Walker. Without any qualification whatever. 
 
 Mr. Nobwood. As you are on that line, I would ask you, do you 
 mean by that to say that your net profit is one-third less than those 
 other roads make ? 
 
 Mr. Walkek. No, sir ; I was speaking about the actual charges we 
 make for moving persons and property. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Without any reference to the gross or net receipts ? 
 
 Mr. Walker. I have made no reference to the net receipts in the 
 statements I have made. I have only found out what they charge in 
 England, Germany, and France, per ton per mile, and in the various 
 States, and have compared what we charge with those figures. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you made any comparison with Belgium f 
 
 Mr. Walker. No, sir ; I do not think I instituted a comparison with 
 that country. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. You included passenger transportation in your esti- 
 mate? 
 
 Mr. Walker. Yes, sir ; I have investigated that subject and find 
 about the same result as I have stated. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you in your investigations made any calcula- 
 tions as to percentage of net profits of railroads of this State ? I mean in 
 the percentage on their capital ? 
 
 17 T !! 
 
258 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Walker. I think there are about fifty railroad corporations in 
 Illinois. • I think there are only four which pay anything regularly to 
 the stockholders— five sometimes. That is in short the history. I think 
 that the net earnings of the railroads of Illinois for the last two years, 
 have been about from 2 to 2£ per cent. 
 
 The Chairman. On all the capital stock ? 
 
 Mr. Walker. On all the capital stock, yes, sir. There are only four 
 ■which earn anything for the owners of property. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you remember what the net earnings of those 
 roads are— the percentage on their capital, I mean ? 
 
 Mr. Walker. That is easily ascertained, sir. The dividends are gen- 
 erally 8 per cent. They speak for themselves. My own road, however, 
 has paid 10. 
 
 The Chairman. What is your explanation of the discriminations 
 which are complained of, if you have any ? 
 
 Mr. Walker. Well, sir, it would be a pretty bold statement to say 
 that there were no grievances on the part of the people to complain of, 
 so far as railroad management is concerned. I think there may be such, 
 but, so far as this one question is concerned in Illinois, I think it is 
 wholly without foundation. That is, that there is extortion in the sense 
 that we are charging, or have, hitherto charged, more than ought to 
 have been charged under the circumstances, because railroads in the 
 State have paid nothing. I take it for granted that they are as well 
 and economically managed as others. So far as I can judge, aside from 
 our own road, the men who are in charge of the railroads of this State 
 are men of ability, distinguished and noted for their business capacity. 
 I take it that they are managed with as much economy as they can be, 
 and yet the result is that they are the poorest property in the West any- 
 where that I know of. When I say to you that there are only four roads 
 in this State, out of the whole number of corporations, which pay any- 
 thing to their stockholders regularly, you will understand what I mean; 
 that is, that they pay very little as a whole to the owners. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any connections or combinations with any 
 of the roads Bast? 
 
 Mr. Walker. No, sir; nothing beyond running arrangements. 
 
 The Chairman. I did not know but it was associated witn some one 
 of the leading roads. 
 
 Mr. Walker. No, sir; I think the cry of extortion arises more from 
 a want of information upon this subject than from any other cause. I 
 think if the people of Illinois knew exactly how much the owners of 
 those roads were receiving there would be no cry of extortion as a rule. 
 There may be unjust discriminations .possibly. That is, one locality 
 under some circumstances may have been charged more than ought to 
 have been charged under the circumstances, as compared with other 
 localities. There may have been something of that kind. If there has 
 been, that, under the recent action of the railroads of this State, has 
 been entirely done away with. Since the enactment of the law last 
 winter, the railroads, so far as they could, have conformed to the re- 
 quirements of the law, and saved the property from utter destruction. 
 They have attempted to prevent any cause of complaint from what they 
 call unjust discrimination between places and persons, and the recent 
 tariffs that were made were made with that view. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Have you changed your local tariff since that law?, 
 
 Mr. Walker. We have, sir, somewhat. 
 
 Mr. Davis. With a view of conforming to the law 1 
 
 Mr. Walker. With a view of attempting to avoid any complaints 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 259 
 
 that there should be or may have been. I have never heard any on our 
 roads ; but it was to avoid the possibility of any complaint being made 
 that we have attempted so to adjust our tariff that there should be no 
 unjust or unfair discrimination at different points on the road. 
 
 The Chairman. How do you regard these freight lines represented 
 by the red, white, and blue lines ; as an advantage or disadvantage ? 
 
 Mr. Walker. They are an advantage. The business of the country 
 requires dispatch, and these freight lines tend in that direction. When 
 1 say this, 1 mean freight lines not owned by private individuals, for 
 those are parasites that should not be tolerated, I think, in any railroad 
 management ; but I mean those freight lines that are made up and 
 owned by the railroads themselves, which amounts to nothing more 
 than arrangement between the railroads to join in forwarding freight. 
 
 The Chairman. Are freights carried any cheaper by those lines, 
 starting at an interior point west of Chicago and going through to New 
 York, than they are if they shipped to Chicago ? 
 
 Mr. Walker. Yes, sir ; there is a saving of reshipment. 
 
 The Chairman. It costs in Illinois, then, or in Iowa, less the Chicago 
 local charges"? 
 
 Mr. Walker. Yes, sir. I beg the committee to understand me. I 
 do not believe in freight lines owned by private parties. I think that is 
 unjust to the railroad, to the shipper, and to everybody else, because 
 all the profits that come from these freight lines should go into the rail- 
 road treasury. No outside party should be allowed to make profits for 
 this reason : If the railroads receive all the profits there is from trans- 
 portation, then they can reduce their charges to that extent. And so 
 far as the railroads with which we are connected, we have no pri- 
 vate lines on our road beyond the American Express Company. 
 
 Q. Are there any of that kind in the West that you know of? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think there are. I presume there are. 
 
 Mr. Davis. I understood you to say that the charge was the same, 
 less transfer here, whether they went by the through lines or whether 
 they were local here and then shipped Bast from here. Is that the 
 case ¥ 
 
 Q. I don't know that I understand you. 
 
 A. For instance, a lot of grain of any kind is loaded anywhere 
 on your line to be forwarded directly through to New York, or loaded on 
 your lines, and comes here and is re-shipped into cars again. The only 
 difference in the charge is the transfer charge. Did I understand you 
 that? 
 
 A. So far as we are concerned the charge would be the same. 
 
 Q. Now let me understand that exactly, for I do not as yet. 
 
 A. I don't know that I fully understand your question, then, sir. 
 
 Q. A load, say, is loaded anywhere upon your line, and shipped here, 
 and then reshipped for New York or any other point East. Now, I un- 
 derstand that you get the same rate as if it had been loaded in a through 
 line and gone on to New York, or are your local charges greater than 
 your through charges? 
 
 A. In the case you speak of there would be a charge from that 
 point to Chicago. Then if there was a transfer, plus that transfer, and 
 then the charge to the sea-board. If it is needed to transfer, the trans- 
 fer must be paid, and the lines are combined to avoid that outlay. 
 
 Q. That is not the point. The point is, which costs the farmer or the 
 shipper" most? 
 
 A. It makes no difference whatever. 
 
 Q. Then do I understand you that your local charge is the same as 
 
"260 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 your through charge if it went on to New York? Tour charge from 
 some point out in the State to this point is the same per ton per mile as 
 if it went through to New York ? 
 
 A. As an illustration : There are two routes from Burlington to New 
 York. The system has grown up that the through rate from Burling- 
 ton to New York will be divided proportionately. If an article, how- 
 ever, wishes to come to Chicago and there take its chances by rail or 
 water, there is a certain specific charge from Burlington to ChicagOy 
 which the road would collect. 
 
 Q. Which is the greater to you; which would be the greater charge? 
 
 A. The greater charge would be — there are two operations entirely. 
 The proportion of a through charge is always less than a local charge 
 from a competitive point, but only from competitive points, however. 
 "When you ask for any other local points there would be the same charge 
 from that local point to Chicago in the one case as in the other. But at 
 Burlington, coming into contact with an influence that cannot he con- 
 trolled, whether by railroad or the Mississippi Biver, we have to meet 
 that commercial condition. The shipper and everybody interested in 
 the grain would be benefited by the through route to the extent that 
 he can avoid transshipment and cost in that regard. 
 
 Q. It has been stated to the committee that in many cases the charge 
 for one hundred miles, say, out on your lines, or two hundred miles, as 
 the case may be, would be double in proportion to what it would be for 
 through. In other words, the charge for local is much greater than that 
 for through. Is that the case, or not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; through freight going across the country from 8an 
 Prancisco to New York. 
 
 Q. No, no ; from some point on your road. 
 
 A. Well, sir, we would charge less for a car-load of freight coming 
 from Omaha per ton a mile than over one coming two hundred miles 
 out, if that is your inquiry. 
 
 Q. Take two-way stations, if you choose, a hundred miles apart on 
 your line, or take it here — the local charge there is double, perhaps,, 
 what your through charge would be where you have less competition 1 
 
 A. That may be true, possibly. If you mean by through charge 
 transportation from New York to points in Iowa or the West, it might 
 be true. I don't know that it w T ould, but it is possible that it might, 
 because what we call through transportation is carried at a very small 
 profit. 
 
 Q. Then I understand your local charges are much greater than your 
 through charges? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; largely. I do not think they are double, but they are 
 larger. 
 
 Mr. Windom. On what principle is that distinction made ? 
 
 A. It is on the principle that we can afford to do it. If you carry 
 one ton two hundred miles, you can carry it for much less than you can 
 for fifty miles. The loading and unloading is avoided when it is through 
 freight across your line. 
 
 Mr. Windom. I was going to ask you if there was any difference, ex- 
 cept in the loading and unloading "? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; you can keep your wheels running more, and that helps 
 your road. 
 
 Mr. Windom. The loss of time by stoppages ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Windom. As an estimate, what are the lowest rates of cost that 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOAED. 261 
 
 freight can be carried for in this State, giving you all the business you 
 could ask on a double-track railroad ? 
 
 A. That is a pretty hard question ; that would combine a great many 
 elements. 
 
 Mr. Windom. What I want to get at is the minimum power of the 
 roads to carry freight. The power to carry at the minimum price, I 
 should say. 
 
 A. That is a very hard matter to answer. It would depend on the 
 speed you would make, and the various other elements. 
 
 Mr. Windom. Well, I assume the most profitable rate of speed ?, 
 
 A. There are so many conditions that no mortal man in the world can 
 answer it. 
 
 Mr. Windom. My reason for asking you is, that a double-track freight 
 railroad has been agitated in this country between the Mississippi and 
 New York. What, in your judgment, as a railroad man, is the lowest 
 rate at which you could carry, paying simply cost, exclusive of divi- 
 dends or stock? I do not include anything except the actual cost of 
 transportation, maintenance of road, repairs of cars — everything that 
 you include in the cost of transportation. Whether, in your judgment, 
 in other words, it can be done materially cheaper than the cost which 
 you gave a moment ago ? 
 
 A. Not with the same speed, I think. I think it would cost more. I 
 doubt whether it can be much cheaper at the same speed than it is now, 
 and in the same mode we run our trains. 
 
 Mr. Windom. What, in your judgment, would be the speed of maxi- 
 mum profit for freight-trains ? 
 
 A. About ten miles an hour. 
 
 Mr. Windom. The Pennsylvania Central Railroad report that the cost 
 to them of moving a ton of freight per mile is eight mills and a fraction. 
 Now, in your judgment, can a double-track freight-railroad, built for 
 freight purposes alone, carry for materially less than that cost ? 
 
 A. I doubt it. 
 
 Mr. Windom. A good deal of complaint is made that railroads made 
 contracts with sleeping-car companies, &c, that are injurious to the 
 roads, and for the benefit of certain persons in those companies. What 
 is your judgment as to that 1 
 
 A. Well, sir, I cannot tell about that, that is a pretty large question, 
 but I have already nearly answered it. My own judgment is that if the 
 thing is de novo — if the railroad can naturally and legitimately own it — 
 it should be done. It was with that view that I said I thought no fast 
 freight lines should be owned by private parties and put on roads. My 
 own judgment is that express companies should be confined, if used at 
 all, to the transportation of the most valuable packages. That, perhaps,, 
 would cover your question. 
 
 There was a question that I heard talked about in reference to the 
 cost of transferring grain. It was stated to the committee that it was 
 two cents a bushel. I think there is an error about that. Grain that 
 comes and, goes into the elevators here, and is transferred to the cars — 
 transshipment, so called — they have usually charged three dollars a car, 
 which would be something less than one cent. Grain that comes in by 
 rail, and is transferred to Mr. Sargent's cars, or any other cars that go 
 East, here through the elevators, it has been hitherto done for three dol- 
 lars a car. 
 
 Mr. Davis. How many bushels in a car ? 
 
 A. That brings it to something less than one cent. There are three 
 
262 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 hundred and fifty bushels of wheat in a car on an average, and a larger 
 number of lighter grain. 
 
 Mr. Conover. What is the cost per ton for grain from here to 
 New York, through by rail ? 
 
 A. That varies. The present rate is 45 cents a hundred. 
 
 Mr. Conover. A gentleman stated to me the other day, which I can- 
 not believe altogether, that for the shipment of a car-load of cattle or 
 lumber from here to New York, the cost was just one-half what a car- 
 load of grain was. Can there be any truth in that 1 
 
 Mr. Sargent. Grain is going cheapest. It is the cheapest com- 
 modity that is carried. 
 
 Mr. Davis. The Chairman don't fully understand you, sir, about the 
 transfer, and we both would be glad to have the details of that. 
 
 The Witness. I heard this statement made, that two cents a bushel 
 was charged in all cases for the transfer of grain. That is an error, and 
 the charge for transferring grain, where it comes in cars here, and is 
 transferred to the elevator, and goes into cars to go East, is three dol- 
 lars a car, or something less than one cent a bushel. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Is that general, or ic it between lines that have communi- 
 sation with elevators 1 
 
 A. It is a general charge, sir. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. That is the elevator charge ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Windom. That is simply for transferring ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. An average car-load, you say, is three hundred and 
 fifty bushels? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, of wheat. An average car-load is ten tons; but as you 
 jet lighter grain, there is a greater number of bushels. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. You stated a while ago that there were four or five 
 roads in this State that pay a dividend exceeding 2£ per cent. 
 
 A. I beg pardon. I did not mean to say that the other roads pay 2J 
 per cent. The other roads pay nothing. There are only four or five 
 ?oads in this State that pay anything. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. How long has that condition of things existed 1 
 
 A. From the commencement of the construction of railroads hitherto^ 
 sir. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. In this State ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Have there been many roads, or many miles of road, 
 jonstructed in the States since the war? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, a good many of them; exactly how many I cannot tell 
 ^ou, but I could furnish the information if it was desired. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Taking these facts into consideration, what, in your 
 >pinion, is the reason for the construction of roads in your State not 
 laying f 
 
 A. I think a great many roads have been constructed that ought not 
 ;o have been constructed. In the first place roads have been construct- 
 ed by land-grants in the West here generally. They have been induced 
 ;o undertake the construction of roads which ought not to have been 
 ionstructed, because they would get land-grants thereby. In this State 
 i great many roads have been constructed under a pressure by all the 
 people to have them, and for that purpose issuing county and town 
 )onds, which is illegitimate, and ought never to have been tolerated. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Have any roads been constructed in the State by 
 and-grants since the war ? 
 
TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOARD. 263 
 
 A. Not in this State. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Do you know how many miles of railroad have been 
 constructed in that State since the war? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I cannot tell you definitely, but I could furnish the infor- 
 mation if it was desired. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. In a general way, what number of miles of road in. 
 this State have been constructed in the last eight years? 
 
 A. Possibly one-sixth; maybe more. I should say perhaps more than 
 that ; perhaps one-fourth. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. What I don't understand is, that with this fact pat- 
 ent before the people, that these roads pay nothing financially, men will 
 put their money in railroads and continue to build railroads. 
 
 A. That has been as much of an enigma to me, sir, as to you. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. I wanted your opinion on that subject ; why, as a 
 financial operation, men will bury their money in the ground when they 
 know it is not going to yield anything? 
 
 A. Roads have been constructed in this State which ought not to 
 have been constructed. There is no financially sound head that would 
 ever put his money in. But I am sorry to say that enterprises which 
 have had really no merit in them have been able to find a sale 
 in the East, and abroad, especially, and the roads have been con- 
 structed and the bonds are worthless. For example, the Kockford and 
 Rock Island road, two hundred miles long, in this State, never paid, 
 I think, anything at all. It was constructed entirely on the bonds. 
 A great many of the roads now owned by the main trunk-lines were 
 constructed in that way. The farmers in the country would get to- 
 gether and say " We want a railroad" — for every farmer does want one 
 at his own door. They would call a town meeting, agree to vote so 
 many bonds — you would find men who would take those bonds — and 
 make a mortgage on the road, and with this town and county aid in the 
 shape of town and county bonds, and expending the result of that in 
 grading roads, they would be enabled to negotiate the bonds in the East 
 or Europe and get the money to go along with the enterprise, and then, 
 when constructed, the other roads have been obliged to take them up. 
 Very few of that class of roads have ever been put in operation by the 
 parties who built them. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. You sav these other roads pay about 8 per cent. ? 
 
 A. From 8 to 10. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. What do they pay that percentage upon % 
 
 A. Upon their capital stock, I meant to state. Over and above their 
 interest and operating expenses they have paid upon capital stock to 
 the owners of the road from eight to ten per cent, dividends. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Have any of these roads watered their stock, as it is 
 generally called ? 
 
 A. I don't know, sir, of any road in this State which has any watered 
 stock in it. There may be some, but I think the rule will be found the 
 other way; that the roads which are now in the ownership of the com- 
 panies operating them have been obtained at far less than they cost, 
 for a great many of them have been foreclosed and the capital stock 
 wiped out once or twice. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Does the capital stock, as you speak of it, staud now 
 at what it was when the road was started ? 
 
 A. O, no, sir. The capital stock has grown with the. growth of the 
 road. The construction account of the road is never closed as long as. 
 the company is being extended — as long as yon can put on rolling- 
 
264 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 stock— and the capital stock has been increased as the property has 
 grown. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. 'Sow, will you favor us with an itemized statement of 
 what you include in the capital stock, when you say that your road, or 
 any other road in Illinois, pays 8 per cent, on its capital stock t 
 
 A. I mean the moneys that have gone into the construction of the 
 road, and which is represented by stock. 
 Mr. Norwood. Will you itemize that 1 
 
 A. For example, a road is started a hundred miles long, if you please. 
 It issues $2,000,000 of capital stock. It completes the road, and it has 
 expended 1 this $2,000,000. . It has a road-bed and track down, but noth- 
 ing to earn the money. Now, then, there are two ways to get it— one to 
 borrow it by bonds, and the other to increase your capital stock. Both 
 ways have been pursued by all the roads, perhaps, in this country. 
 Tor example, they must have another million of dollars for rolling-stock. 
 They say, "We will issue another million of stock," offering it first to 
 the stockholders, and, if they do not take it, selling it in the market. 
 That money is brought into the treasury, and is paid out for rolling- 
 stock. But every addition of capital stock represents money. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Now, then, you add that million of bonds to the cap- 
 ital stock 1 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. That makes three millions? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I will repeat myself, as I see I did not make myself 
 understood. When we have our track down we must have some rolling- 
 stock, or the road is worthless. Now, there are two ways to get it— one 
 to issue bonds or sell them in the market, the other to increase your 
 capital stock and call in that. If we say we must have a million dol- 
 lars, the company will issue another million of capital stock and sell it 
 to the stockholders at par. If they don't take it, we will sell it in the 
 market, and thus get the million dollars and get the rolling-stock and 
 put it on. So, too, if you will extend your road another hundred miles, 
 you have to increase your capital stock or else borrow the money on 
 bonds and mortgage. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Now, then, as I understand you, is that all that you 
 include in your statement of the capital stock of the road? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. If it issues bonds, say a million, instead of issuing a 
 million of stock, according to the illustration you have been giving, that 
 would be three millions of stock. 
 
 A. If they issued bonds it would not be stock. If we had issued 
 bonds instead of issuing the third million of stock, then our capital 
 stock would have stood at two millions and our bonded debt at one 
 million. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. I understand that. Then would you declare divi- 
 dends on two millions, and not three millions ? 
 
 A. Two millions; but you would pay your interest on your bonds. 
 Mr. Norwood. I understand that ; but what I want to get at is 
 what you call stock and what you declare dividends on. 
 A. Only upon stock. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. So the 8 per cent., then, in that case would only be 
 upon two millions of stock 1 
 A. Yes, sir, that is all. 
 
 Mr. Windom. And that is not declared until the interest is paid on 
 the bonds 1 
 A. No, sir. The operating expenses of the road are first paid, then 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 265 
 
 interest on the bonds, and then, if you have anything left, you distribute 
 to the owners. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. I understand you to say that you do not know of any 
 road in this State where there is watered stock ? 
 
 A. I do not know of any. There may be some. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Do you know where there have been any stock divi- 
 dends? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I think in many of the roads there have been stock divi- 
 dends. In my own road there have been stock dividends in this way : 
 For several years we omit to make any dividends. We take the surplus 
 moneys of stockholders, instead of distributing them, and put them in 
 the road and omit the dividends for one, two, or three years, and use all 
 the earnings belonging to the stockholders in equipment and construct- 
 ing the road — not in equipments, but in addition to the property. Then 
 sometimes, at subsequent dates, we have represented that by the issuing 
 of capital stock ; in other words, paying stockholders money. Instead 
 of giving it to them in money, we give it to them in stock. It is just 
 what I repeated before, only in another form. Nothing beyond that, to 
 my knowledge, has ever taken place in any road in this State. I don't 
 say that there has never been anything of the sort ; but I think I should 
 have known it if it had been, for I have been here for twenty years. 
 
 Mr. Windom. Have these stock dividends exceeded the unpaid divi- 
 dends to the stockholders or not? 
 
 A. No, sir. So far as my own road is concerned, there is a surplus ; 
 our reports will show the amount. I think about three millions not rep- 
 resented at all. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Your report shows those facts ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but the report would not perhaps show what I have 
 stated to you about the distribution of stock where we have used the 
 earnings. The report w.ill show you the amount of our capital stock, 
 and the amount of our debt, and the amount of our earnings, and every- 
 thing in that regard. It may be of value to you. 
 
 Mr. Davis. I would like to ask one question which I presume your 
 report don't show ; they don't generally. I do it for the purpose of get- 
 ting general information on the subject. That is, what is your average 
 local rate for passengers and freight 1 
 
 A. Our average rate is a little less than 3£ cents per mile for passen- 
 gers. That covers the whole road, branches and all. 
 
 Mr. Davis. That is passengers. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Now for freight. 
 
 A. Freights vary. I can hand you that. It will be in the report. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Couldn't you approximate ? I should like those two items 
 to go together. 
 
 A. I can send it to you exactly, but my recollection is that it is about 
 2£ cents. 
 
 Mr. Davis. You have four classes ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Your first class may be one hundred and your lower class 
 thirty ; there may be that much difference 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the rates local and through affect this question. 
 
 Mr. Davis. But I understood your answer to be this, that for each ton 
 of freight that you transport over the road taking the entire road, both 
 local and through, you got about 2 cents ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; 1 think it is about that. Eates have been going down. 
 
66 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Ay answer would not apply to any but one year. Rates have beenne- 
 luced here ever since we commenced operating this road pretty nearly, 
 
 Mr. Davis. Your answer would be for the present year or last year, 
 iir? 
 
 A. It will be for the eight months ending January, 1873. The close 
 )f the unancial year was changed so that in the last report there \sa& 
 smbraced only eight months. I could, perhaps, give you two years. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do you pro rate that any water lines through ! 
 
 A. No, sir. , 
 
 Mr. Davis. Have you any connection with a line to Buffalo or else- 
 where $ 
 
 A. .No, sir. Our road ends here and at Omaha. 
 
 Mr. Davis. I understood that, but I thought, perhaps, you had some 
 jonnection with some of the transportation lines east of you by water! 
 
 A. No, sir; we have none. 
 
 Mr. Windom. Is the expense of doing business materially greater in 
 the winter than in the summer ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it is. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. (Jan you give an idea of the percentage of increased 
 sxpeuses in the winter over those of summer? 
 
 A. It would- depend upon so many circumstances that you could not 
 tell much about it. Sometimes we have snows that block the road for 
 a week, and it becomes a very expensive affair. All these things enter 
 into expense. As I said before, sometimes we make nothing beyond ac- 
 tual running expense in the winter months. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. You increase your rates in the winter to cover that 
 increased expense, do you not ! 
 
 A. No, sir ; we make no difference. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Are your winter and summer rates the same ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; they are the same — passenger and freight. 
 
 Mr. Windom. Is that the rule with the western roads generally ! 
 
 A. I think it is, sir. There would be an exception to that. Those 
 ■oads which are in competition with the Mississippi Eiver, I think, would 
 nake a change, and I think the Eock Island road does. That is in com- 
 )etition with the Illinois and Michigan Canal. I cannot say how that 
 s, but that is my impression. 
 
 Mr. Windom. The others you think don't 1 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 It is suggested whether I should call the attention of your committee 
 o the fact that the present law, if we were to be governed by it, would 
 equire us to do business on our branch roads the same as it is done on 
 he main line— at the same rates. It does of course require that, but I 
 lon't know that that is material to the inquiry that you have before 
 r ou. 
 
 There is one inquiry, I suppose, that is quite pertinent to your inves- 
 igation, and that is that we are blocked here in our business. Outlets, 
 rom Chicago to the East should be greatly enlarged in some form and 
 a some way. We are limiced in our business in a winter season very 
 auch. We hardly do half the business that we ought to do and could, 
 o. 
 
 Q. Why are they blocked? 
 
 A. Because, we cannot transfer to other roads that which we can and 
 o bring in. I think we brought into this city last year— I think 
 re transferred to the eastern roads, leading out of this city, about six 
 nllions of bushels of grain. We ought to have given them twelve 
 lillions, and would if they would have taken it. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 267 
 
 • 
 
 Mr. Davis. Then, I understood that the facilities West for bringing 
 in are greater than the facilities for going East ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; very much greater. 
 
 Mr. Davis. That is confined to the winter months, is it f 
 
 A. No, sir; it is all the year. Our rolling-stock is, perhaps, no more 
 than that of other roads. Our road is not equipped with stock more 
 than is sufficient to do business, hardly enough ; but the fact is, we have 
 not been doing as much as we ought to do into at least one-fourth any 
 time this year, and do not to-day. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Is that for want of facilities ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; for want of facilities for shipping East. There is a lack 
 of transportation on the lakes and a lack of railroad transportation. I 
 think I am not very much exaggerating if I should say that the busi- 
 ness is limited at least one-third, from that single fact, at Chicago. 
 
 Mr. Davis. If that is the case now, is it increased during the closing 
 of the canals? 
 
 A. It increases when the lake navigation ceases. 
 
 Mr. Davis. I say canals. 
 
 A. O, yes, sir, from that cause also. 
 
 Mr. Davis. How many months during the year is that closing of nav- 
 igation with you, ordinarily ? 
 
 A. It is from December to May; very often till the middle of May. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Including those months? 
 
 A. Sometimes you run up into, perhaps, the 10th of December. All 
 insurance expires on the 30th of November,, but you may sail after that. 
 Sometimes the lakes close before that, and sometimes after; but, as a. 
 rule, you would include December always. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Five months ! 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Now, I have a little statement here of the grain that was brought 
 from Chicago, to show you how things run a little, if it would be of any 
 use to you. There were received into Chicago last year 81,000,000' 
 bushels of grain. There were shipped by all routes, 77,000,000 bushels. 
 That left 4,000,000 to be consumed in Chicago. This grain was brought 
 in by different routes; our road bringing in eighteen millions; the North 
 Western, seventeen; Illinois Central, fifteen; Eock Island, twelve, &c, 
 and by canal, eight. Seventeen millions went out by rail during the 
 winter mostly. The Michigan Central took between six and seven mil- 
 lions; the Michigan Southern, four and a half millions ; Pittsburgh 
 & Fort Wayne, three millions and a half. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. What proportion of that weight came across the Mis- 
 sissippi by your line ? 
 
 A. I have not the figures before me; it requires some little time to 
 get at that. I could procure it. It would require probably a week or 
 so to get the information. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. I merely asked you as a matter of information. I 
 wanted to know what the trade was across the Mississippi. 
 
 A. The large quantity is from Illinois. From Iowa more comes in. 
 hogs and cattle. 
 
 Mr. Windom. What, in your judgment, would be the relief afforded by 
 an improvement of the Mississippi River ? 
 
 A. It would be of very little consequence, in my judgment. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. At what point do you mean ? 
 
 A. Hardly at any point. The commerce is from the West to the East, 
 and the East to the West, so far as this section is concerned here. Our 
 
268 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 •road reaches the Mississippi at four points. The business upon the river 
 is so slight that we do not regard it as a competition narmy. 
 
 Mr. Windom. Do you make any modification of your charges by rea- 
 son of the crossing of the Mississippi? 
 
 A. No, sir. , , ■ 
 
 Mr. Windom. What I mean by that is, do you charge as much for 
 grain from your western terminus at Omaha to the Mississippi, as you 
 would for bringing it fifty or a hundred miles this side of the Mis- 
 sissippi 1 ? 
 
 A. The local rates are about uniform over the road. We should 
 bring produce from Omaha at less price than any from intermediate 
 . points. 
 
 Mr. Windom. The fact of crossing the Mississippi, then, does not 
 cause any modification at all of your prices ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Norwood, Is not the want of competition by the Mississippi 
 owing to the fact that the mouth of the river is not in condition to get 
 out'? 
 
 A. That Is possible. If you could have facilities at the mouth of the 
 river, so that ocean navigation could be reached with facility and create 
 a market there, then the improvement of the Mississippi Eiver might be 
 of value. The tide of commerce might possibly be changed, though I 
 should hardly expect it. Every thing tends toward the great money 
 centers. It would not reach New York City in that direction. It would 
 reach European markets, possibly, in that way, but I don't think the 
 produce of the Northwest would ever go down the Mississippi and then 
 get to New York or Boston. 
 
 Mr. Windom. What are the objections to its going to Europe in that 
 way? 
 
 A. I don't know that there are any, except that there is a lack of 
 facilities now. It has been claimed that corn could not pass through 
 that point. 
 
 Mr. Windom. You have never investigated that subject particularly, 
 I suppose ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Homer E. Sargent, general superintendent of Michigan Central road -at 
 
 Chicago, examined. 
 
 Mr. Windom. Will you please state your relation to the railroad with 
 which you are connected? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. I am general superintendent of the Michigan Central 
 Railroad. 
 Mr. Windom. The termini of that road are where? 
 Mr. Sargent. Of the main line, Chicago and Detroit. 
 Mr. Windom. What connecting lines have you ? 
 Mr. Sargent. We have a short cut from Niles to Jackson, which we 
 call our line division, of one hundred miles. We have a road running 
 north to within sixty-five miles of the straits, which is two hundred and 
 forty miles long ; a road running from Jackson to Grand Eapids ninety- 
 four miles long. We have a road from Kalamazoo to South Haven, 
 (directly west of the lake, of forty miles; we have a road running from 
 (between Lake Station, which is the southern point of the lake, directly 
 west to Joliet, cutting the Chicago and Rock Island and the Chicago, 
 J Alton and Saint Louis, which is forty-five miles. We have a short road 
 running from Niles south to South Bend of thirteen miles ; making eight 
 .hundred and sixteen miles altogether. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 269 
 
 Mr. Davis. What is your connecting road from the East ? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. Chiefly the Great Western, running directly to Sus- 
 pension Bridge. We connect also with the Grand Trunk to Montreal, 
 and with its connections to Northern New England points, and we now 
 connect with the new Canada Southern, which is just completed to 
 Detroit. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Have you any other than running connections with what 
 is called the Y^nderbilt system of roads ! 
 
 Mr. Sargent. No, sir, except an interchange of business under agree- 
 ments to pro-rate the long business. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What freight lines, independent or co-operative, are oper- 
 ated on your road ? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. We have the Blue Line, which runs directly through 
 over the Great Western, the New York Central and connections, which 
 is our principal and co-operative freight line that was established in 
 January 1, 1867, on the completion of a third rail across the Great West- 
 ern, making a uniform gauge — the first uniform gauge we had — used 
 from Detroit East. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Are there any independent or non-co-operative lines on 
 your road ? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. We have what we call the Erie and North Shore line 
 running over the Great Western and connecting with the Erie roadj 
 which is co-operative and owned entirely by the companies. We have 
 a connection with the Grand Trunk; with the line called the Interna- 
 tional line, which is a co-operative line owned by the roads running in 
 connection between the Michigan Central, across what used to be the 
 old Buffalo and Lake Huron road, and now controlled by the Grand 
 Trunk from Sarnia to Buffalo ; and we have what is called the National 
 Despatch line, which is a grand trunk connection in connection with 
 the Yermont Central system of roads, a co-operative concern, running 
 over our road. 
 
 Those, as I remember, are the only co-operative freight lines. We 
 have had for a good many years the Merchants' Despatch, which is a 
 freight organization of the American Express Company, running over 
 our road. That we have paid a percentage on their getting the busi- 
 ness, and two years ago they put in, by an arrangement with Mr. Yan- 
 derbilt, or of his chiefly, some cars that they called the Merchants? 
 Despatch cars. They were partially owned by the American Express 
 Company, perhaps a stock company, which, however, no officer of the 
 Michigan Central has ever had any interest in. Those cars are run on 
 the same mileage as we pay in our exchange — our transfer of cars owned 
 by the roads. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What is that ? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. A cent and a half a mile. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Who keeps the cars in repair ? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. The"owners of the cars keep them in repair. 
 
 Mr. Windom. What do you estimate the cost per train a mile of run- 
 ning your trains ? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. Well, sir, I could not tell you here. We have figured 
 it a great many times, but I have not got it in mind as to the exact or 
 approximate cost even. 
 
 Mr. Windom. Have you the figures as to the cost per ton per mile ? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. Pretty nearly. Our report gives it exactly, and if I 
 should make a report 1 might do it a little at random. But I can give it 
 pretty nearly. Our through freight for the year ending the 31st of 
 
270 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 May yielded us altogether one and thirty-six hundredth cents per ton , 
 per mile, I think. 
 
 Mr. Windom. That was the receipts % 
 
 Mr. Sargent. Yes, sir ; that was the receipts. Our local freight, as 
 I recollect it, was about 2£ cents per ton per mile. 
 
 Mr. Windom. Do you remember the cost of moving 1 
 
 Mr. Sargent. Our report contains that, and I can figure it from that, 
 but I could not tell you exactly. I suppose our cose of moving all 
 freight altogether was something like a cent and a third per ton per 
 mile. 
 
 Mr. Windom. So that there was very little profit on the through 
 
 freight 1 ? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Windom. By cost you mean everything, exclusive of dividends 
 and interest on bonds? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What were your working expenses ? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. Last year it was about 68 per cent, of the gross earn- 
 ings. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Yours is a double-track road ? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. We are beginning to double-track now as fast as we 
 can. We have now really all but eighty-two miles of the two hundred 
 and eighty-four double-track, utilizing this air-line. We run our through 
 freight east over that line, and west over the old line. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. What, in your judgment, is the most economical 
 speed to the company for a freight train ? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. Including stoppages they should not run over about 
 ten miles an hour for the most economical rate of speed. 
 
 Mr. Windom. In your judgment could the movements of freight be 
 ■ materially reduced in price by a double-track freight railroad used ex- 
 clusively for that purpose ? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. It may be somewhat reduced, of course. Very much, 
 however, I think would depend upon the engineering of the road and 
 the grades. Taking- the present three lines, the grades of the Pennsyl- 
 vania line, some portions of them are very heavy. They have a double 
 track from Pittsburgh east — the Pennsylvania road itself. There are 
 some heavy grades in Ohio, on the Pennsylvania Central — its western 
 connection. Out of this State, and through the State of Indiana, their 
 grades are pretty easy. The Lake Shore and Michigan Southern grades 
 vary from here to Buffalo. There they connect both with the New York 
 Central and the Erie, and the Erie grades are quite heavy in many 
 places. The New York Central, as you know, are pretty uniform. 
 With us, in our improvements for the last two jears, we have been re- 
 ducing our grades wherever we were double-tracking and could do so, 
 particularly over specified divisions where an engine ran its round trip. 
 The Great Western grades are going to be easy ; there we connect with 
 the New York Central. Now, in an independent freight-carrying road, 
 very much will depend upon the manner in which they could engineer 
 their road to make easy grades. Then, perhaps, they could carry a lit- 
 tle cheaper than the present rates. I suppose, however, by the time a 
 double-track road could be built, the present three trunk lines through 
 to the East will all be double-tracked with steel rails. They are pretty 
 nearly now. They would undoubtedly compete and carry freight at the 
 same prices. They certainly would have to if they carried it at all. I 
 think by the time that such a road was built transportation demands 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 271 
 
 would be such as to fill them all, perhaps nearly as full as they are 
 now. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. What, in your judgment, is the lowest sum for which 
 such a road could carry freight, exclusive of interest or dividends ; 
 the actual cost of the road ? 
 
 Mr. Davis. With such a grade as there necessarily would be be- 
 tween it and here, for instance. 
 
 Mr. Sargent. I will give a statement, but I want to preface it by 
 stating that there are so many conditions by which it would be liable 
 to vary that it is very difficult for anybody who might claim to be an 
 expert to state exactly what it would be. Now, for instance, very 
 much would depend upon the amount of tonnage they could bring 
 back. If they have got to run 75 per cent, of their stock, or 50 per 
 cent, of it, back, as we run now more than 50 per cent, of our stock 
 back light, that makes a difference of 25 or 20 per cent., perhaps, in 
 their cost of carrying. 
 
 Mr. Windom. It would be safe to assume that that state of things 
 would continue 1 
 
 Mr. Sargent. Tes, sir ; of course freight goes east and the manu- 
 factured product goes west, and, if the road runs through a mining or 
 iron country, as the Pittsburgh, Port Wayne and Chicago and the 
 Pennsylvania Central do, they could load their oars part of the way 
 back. They do, and they can carry freight a little cheaper than we, 
 perhaps, and roads farther north. But 1 suppose a road, say built with 
 steel rails, running its trains not exceeding ten miles an hour, might 
 carry its freight with 50 per cent, of its stock running back light, at 
 something less than a cent per ton per mile. 
 
 Mr. Windom. Actual cost ? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. Tes, sir. There are periods, in the competition-and the 
 disagreements and the misunderstandings between the competing lines, 
 that we bring freight west now for short times at two-thirds of a cent 
 a ton per mile. The lines east have been bringing first-class goods be- 
 tween New York and Boston, Philadelphia and Chicago, for two months 
 past, at about forcy cents per hundred. Forty-two and a half cents per 
 hundred by our line would be a cent a ton a mile. They have been 
 bringing groceries and the fourth-class goods at about 25 to 30 cents ; 
 that is about two-thirds of a cent per ton per mile. 
 
 Mr. Windom. You don't understand that to be a paying rate 1 
 
 Mr. Saegent. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Windom. Not paying expenses even 1 
 
 Mr. Sargent. No, sir. Still, perhaps, it is better to put the goods 
 into those cars. Perhaps we are better with tworthirds or three-fourths of 
 a cent a ton a mile than to run the cars back empty. At any rate, where 
 we have regular customers, we feel that we had better take their goods 
 than to throw them over to some other line. The through lines, however, 
 are every year now reducing their cost of transportation to the ship- 
 pers of both east and west bound freight. I had occasion, in making 
 up our report this year, to make up a statement for our president, by 
 which it was shown that all the local business of the Michigan. Central 
 Eailroad proper, in the. last five years, had fallen 34 per cent. I com- 
 menced in 18G8, when I supposed everything had got regulated, and, 
 taking the rates year by year, I found we had gradually fallen every 
 year between our local business in the five years 34 per cent. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Have you connections with water-lines between here and 
 the East ? Do you pro-rate with any of them? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. We have connection with a water-line or two at De 
 
272 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 troit that run in connection with the canal lines from Buffalo, but that 
 is used altogether. I will correct myself by saying that years ago we- 
 did considerable business from here in connection with such lines, but 
 since we are running through cars without breaking bulk we do m 
 business from Chicago now or from the west end of our roads in con- 
 nection with the water-lines, but we do some business, local, from Michi- 
 gan that comes to this water-line, run through by steamer to Buffalo and 
 thence by canal. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do you make the rate when that is the case through to 
 Buffalo? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. No, sir; they give us a rate of 5 cents per hundred 
 pounds on grain, 10 cents a barrel of flour, less than what the through 
 rates may be from Detroit to the sea-board, and we give that information 
 to our shippers and leave it optional with them to send by whichever 
 way they see fit. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Who gives you the 5 cents'? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. The agents of the steamer lines at Detroit. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Suppose a shipment was to go from here to Buffalo under 
 that rule, what proportion would belong to you and what proportion to 
 the boat "? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. We get the same proportion as on the shipments go- 
 ing by all rail ; there is no difference or discrimination. 
 
 Mr. Davis. But I want to know what that is. 
 
 Mr. Sargent. If it was all a rail shipment we would get 55 per cent 
 Supposing it was a dollar a barrel on flour we would get 55 cents and 
 our rail connection would get 45. If it was to go by water we would 
 get 55 and the water connections would get 35. 
 
 Mr. Davis. How many miles would you haul it, and how many miles . 
 would they haul it ? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. We should haul it two hundred and eighty-four, and 
 the boat would haul it about two hundred and thirty miles. That is 
 based on a, pro rata on the all rail, and then they take a barrel of flour 
 at 10 cents less than our connecting road does all rail. 
 
 Mr. Windom. What is the difference in distance from Detroit to Buf- 
 falo by water and rail ? 
 
 Mr. Sargent. It is about the same. 
 
 Mr. Davis. You formerly had a connection that you shipped freight 
 from here to Buffalo by boat and rail combined 1! 
 
 Mr. Sargent. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What is the proportion that each get by rail and water! 
 
 Mr. Sargent. The arrangement has always been the same as I 
 named. Years ago, before we had a through rail connection, that is to 
 say, where there was no unbroken gauge, before we had an unbroken 
 gauge, the proportions were made in the same way they are made now. 
 That would give a 10-cent less rate on flour from Detroit east than the 
 proportion of the rail connection from Detroit east, and the reason this 
 has changed somewhat is mainly this, that before we had the unbroken 
 gauge we had to transfer at Detroit. There was a delay there and 
 liability, perhaps, to some damage, breaking, or something of that kind* 
 The transfer again at Suspension Bridge was a delay. We trans- 
 ferred again at Albany. There was a delay there. But now, since we 
 have unbroken gauge and are running the flour through in cars without 
 breaking bulk or transfer, the time is so much quicker, and the condi- 
 tion that the property arrives in is so much better, that people avail 
 themselves of the all-rail route. 
 
 Question. The object of my inquiry is this— to know what the differ 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 213 
 
 ence is in the usual cost between water and rail lines. Where they 
 prorate, what is the difference between them 1 And perhaps you know 
 from here by water to Buffalo. 
 
 Answer. I could not tell you. Water rates vary according to the 
 vessels which may be in port. They are running under no fixed rule. I 
 cannot answer your question by this statement, but 1 am giving you some 
 information to the best of my ability. Our rail rates during the sum- 
 mer and during the competition by water are necessarily very low. 
 We have to make them low. But the vessels come in here, and if there 
 happens to be a fleet of them here, and the demand for transportation 
 is not very pressing, and they cannot get such rates as they desire, they 
 take at any rate they can, and they vary, between maximum and mini- 
 mum, from 5 cents a bushel to 15 cents a bushel. They have received 
 as high as 16 cents, and earned as high as 5 cents per bushel. There- 
 fore from the practice I cannot tell the difference. That is, I cannot 
 state to you the difference, but I should suppose, taking the average of 
 the rates between the rail and water through on grain or flour between 
 Chicago and the sea-board, there is a difference of from 20 to 25 per 
 cent, less on the water rates than there are on all-rail rates. I should 
 think that would be, perhaps, about the average of it. 
 
 The Chairman. Who fixes the rate of freight between here and 
 New York? 
 
 A. The managers of the Western road; that is, the managers of the 
 road leaving Chicago for the East fix the rates of east-bound freight, 
 and the managers of the roads leading from the sea-board to the West 
 fix the rate on the west-bound freight by agreement. 
 
 Q. Do they meet and agree upon certain prices? 
 
 A. The western men generally meet together and agree on the prices 
 East. The Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne and Chicago, the Lake Shore and 
 Michigan Southern, and our own meet; and the managers of the east- 
 em roads meet together at New York generally and arrange matters. 
 Sometimes they all meet together, if they think it is desirable. 
 
 Q. On what principle do they fix those rates? 
 
 A. The rates from here east-bound are fixed somewhat according to 
 the demand for transportation. 
 
 Q. The usual rule of demand and supply fixes them ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Who selects the parties who fix the rates— how are they 
 selected? 
 
 A. The general ireight-agents of the roads usually meet together and 
 fix those rates ; sometimes, and generally, consulting with the higher 
 managers — the superintendent or president of the road. 
 
 Q. Are your rates changed sometimes twice a week? 
 
 A. Well, no, sir; not as often as that. 
 
 Q. But the general freight-agents do not meet every time a change is 
 made, do they ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; usually. They meet or they communicate by wire or 
 letter. They do not change unless the agreement is made mutually to 
 do so. I am speaking of the lines from here east. 
 
 Q. The trunk lines? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Which are they? 
 
 A. The Pennsylvania line, running through from Philadelphia or 
 New York to Chicago ; the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Bail- 
 way, running in connection with the Erie and the New "Xork Central: 
 18 TS 
 
274 TRANSPORTATION TO . THE SEABOARD. 
 
 the Michigan Central, running in connection with both of these roads 
 and with the Grank Trunk. 
 
 The Chairman. Is the Baltimore and Ohio in this connection? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Any road reducing the fare without consultation with the agent 
 would be considered as cutting ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that would lead to a contest that would be fought out until 
 they met together again and agreed? 
 
 A. Yes, that is the way. The general freight-agent of the western 
 roads of the trunk line, the general freight-agent of the Michigan Cen- 
 tral, Lake Shore and Michigan Southern and Pittsburgh Eailroad, west 
 to Chicago. 
 
 Q. Where do the general freight-agents reside ? 
 
 A. The general freight-agent of the Michigan Central Eoad resides at 
 Chicago, of the Michigan Southern at Cleveland, but his chief assist 
 ant, to whom he gives the power to make these rates, resides at Chicago; 
 the general freight-agent of the Pennsylvania line I think resides at 
 Pittsburgh, and he is consulted when these changes of rates are made. 
 He is sometimes here himself, but sometimes he is consulted by wire. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Then really there are but three parties consulted ; I do 
 not understand you to include the Baltimore and Ohio in this. 
 
 A. Well, sir, I am not certain whether they are always present at the 
 meetings or not, but they adopt the same prices that the other roads 
 make. The Baltimore and Ohio road is not much of a competitor for 
 the New York business ; it has never been so here. 
 
 Q. The gentlemen, if I understand, who fix these rates are the general 
 freight-agents of the respective trunk lines going east? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are the Boston lines consulted in the fixing of your rates? 
 
 A. Not on the east-bound. It is mutually agreed between the roads 
 that the western roads may make the east-bound rates, and the eastern 
 roads shall make the westbound rates. 
 
 Q. But I understand you that that is regulated more by the amount 
 of freight transferred and what they think they can get ? * 
 
 A. Yes, sir; the law of supply and demand, of course, has something 
 to do with that; it is the motive chiefly that actuates in these cases; 
 but it is only just to the line to say this, that lastwinter our maximum 
 price to New York was 65 cents. It was 39 cents on a bushel of wheat 
 or a bushel of corn, and our rate to Boston was 70 cents ; that gave 42 
 cents on a bushel of wheat or a bushel of corn. If the rates had been 
 higher the demand would have carried a great deal of property over 
 our roads, but we would not make it any higher. It is only just also to 
 the eastern roads that are competing with water between here and Ne\f 
 York to say that we have to keep up a very large car equipment to do 
 this business five months in the year, while seven months in the year 
 our cars are lying idle, or we have to do this business at cost or less, 
 if we do it at all. Now, the position of the western roads is precisely 
 the opposite of ours. During the season of navigation they have, in the 
 main— they have had years before— perhaps the business now is in- 
 creased to some extent, as Mr. Walker said, beyond their car-capac- 
 ity for carrying it; but they have had heretofore the rail and the 
 water to carry for seven months in the year, and they could keep their 
 equipment busy seven months in the year. The remaining five months 
 they were dependent on the seven to carry, and their business always was 
 limited. But still, they always got good rates during that five months. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 275 
 
 Our case is the reverse of that. We carry seven months very low, if 
 we carry at all, as against water ; and during the five months we carry 
 at less per ton per mile than any of these western roads have heretofore, 
 until within a year or two, brought into Chicago. 
 
 Q. What is the cause of your carrying low seven months? 
 
 A. Water competition. 
 
 Q. Then it is water competition that regulates the charge for seven 
 months f 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; during six or seven months in the year. 
 
 Q. And that is generally lower than the winter rates, of course ? 
 
 A. O, very much, sir. 
 
 Q. What per cent. ? 
 
 A. It is a third less in the summer "than in the winter. 
 
 Q. That is to say, if you charge 66 cents in the summer you would, 
 charge a dollar in the winter, on the average ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. Last week vessels were asking 13 cents a bushel for 
 corn to Buffalo. This week they are offering to carry it for 8 j that was 
 two or three days ago. 
 
 Q. That is accounted for, however, from other causes ? 
 
 A. Yes ; they would have got higher prices now, towards the approach 
 of the close of navigation, than they did during the summer. The rates 
 of insurance have advanced also. 
 
 Mr. J. M. Walkee, president of Chicago, Burlington and Quincy 
 Railroad, here appeared and stated in addition to his former remarks: 
 
 Mr. Chairman: I may have been misunderstood with reference to 
 what I said about the Misssissippi Eiver and the improvement of that. 
 I meant to say that so far as the section of country into which our road 
 runs, that the improvement of the Mississippi River would not be of 
 much competition. I didnotmean to say anything about what would be 
 the effect, for example, on the business of the Illinois Central road, or the 
 lower part of the river. Something was said by the commission when I 
 was present here, in reference to the tariff which they have framed under 
 the recent legislation for the railroads of Elinois, and I understood the: 
 commission to saji to the committee here they were of the impression 1 
 that that would furnish a reasonable remuneration to the railroads if 
 they should adopt it. I have given that matter some thought. ; Wef 
 have taken the business of our road for the month of July, and placed 
 it under that tariff, and the result would have been that we shc-uld 
 make no profit. And the result will be to all the railroads in .Illinois, 
 if they do business under that tariff framed by the commissioners, the 
 railroad property from that time out is rendered worthless, absolutely 
 and certainly. . ' ' .' 
 
 By the Chairman : ■'■> ■'.'■ '• 
 
 Q. Have they materially reduced the rates that were charged before? 
 A. Yes, sir ; taken as a whole, they have reduced it probably .more 
 than a quarter. 
 
 By Mr. Davis: '• . ■' ' " > .:' r 
 
 Q. I understand you that it is your opinion that if thre railroads work 
 
 on the tariff made by the commission they will do it at a loss 1 
 A. They would do it at a loss. I think it would at once render the 
 
 whole railroad property of the State valueless; they could niake no 
 
 profit. 
 
276 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. I find that on your road, foitfinstance, for a hundred miles, t&ef 
 fix a maximum of fourth-class freight at 18£ cents per hundred. That,- 
 on a ton, would be $2.70 for a hundred miles, or 3 cents and 7 mills per 
 ton per mile % 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. It occurred to me that they were liberal ; why would it be a loss 
 to the road ? 
 
 A. Stock, grain, and lumber form nine-tenths of the business of our 
 road. 
 
 Q. Is that what you call fourth-class freight? 
 
 A. The commissioners, in some cases, have allowed us as much as our 
 own charges are under our own tariff; in others it is a great deal less. 
 But taking the whole tariff together and apply it to our road, and it is 
 simply disastrous. And what is true of our road would be true of every 
 other road in the State. 
 
 Receipts and shipments of grain, 1872. 
 
 Bushels. 
 
 Received in Chicago * 81, 571, 755 
 
 Shipped into Chicago by all roads 77, 238, 522 
 
 Leaving for consumption in the city 4, 333, 233 
 
 This grain was brought in as follows : 
 
 Bushels. 
 
 By Chicago, B urlington and Quincy Railroad 18, 021, 585 
 
 By Chicago and Northwestern 17, 239, 143 
 
 By Illinois Central 15, 751, 786 
 
 By Chicago, Eock Island and Pacific 12, 521, 663 
 
 By Chicago and Alton 7, 416, 885 
 
 By Chicago, Danville and Vincennes Railroad 2, 191, 420 
 
 By canal 8, 017, 8C5 
 
 By other sources 411, 426 
 
 000 
 
 Shipped out by lake 59, 354, 1 
 
 Shipped out by rail : 
 
 By Michigan Central Railroad 6, 432, 832 
 
 By Michigan Southern 4, 683, 587 
 
 By Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne and Chicago. 3, 640, 328 
 By Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and Saint Louis 
 
 Railroad 1, 818, 298 
 
 By all other sources 1,J309, 255 
 
 17,884,300 
 
 Mr. H. D. Cook, of the railroad and warehouse commissioners, re- 
 called at his own request : 
 
 Mr. Cook. Mr. Chairman, another source of complaint on the part of 
 shippers consists iu this: that the rates are not only lower at competing 
 points than they are from intermediate points of less distance, but just 
 as long as they can load their cars at competing points, shippers between 
 competing points can get no cars. The result is that they are compelled 
 to hold their grain until the supply for shipment at competing points is 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 277 
 
 exhausted, or the price of grain goes down so that they decline to ship, 
 before they can get cars. Then they can be furnished with cars, but 
 have to pay an additional rate and accept a lower price for their products. 
 
 Another is that at stations between competing points the companies 
 refuse to furnish through cars. I will make a statement of one road 
 which will illustrate the matter. I will take the Toledo, Peoria and Wa- 
 bash road. Shippers east from Peoria on the line of that road, at El 
 Paso and out as far as Ohatsworth, from thirty to sixty miles east of 
 Peoria, the company refuse to furnish at those points through cars; and 
 the rates, when they will furnish them, are much higher from El Paso 
 than from Peoria — El Paso being thirty miles east, in the same direction 
 that the freight wants to go. But they compel these parties to load 
 their cars, send them into Peoria on local rates, aud then the cars are 
 rebilled there and come right back over the same road and go on east. 
 The shipper is therefore compelled to pay local rates into PeOria — pay a 
 cent a bushel transfer when the grain in the cars is not moved at all — 
 shippers of his grain there prohibiting him from making contracts with 
 eastern parties, and then possibly the very next day these same cars, 
 with the same identical grain, will be sent right back past this station, 
 going east. 
 
 I name this, because I am'perfectly cognizant of the facts stated. 
 
 Another thing : It is very difficult for us to obtain from shippers the 
 facts in the case, because they say that if the railroad companies know 
 that they are giving this information, they will give them no cars at 
 all. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Utley desires to make a brief statement. (To 
 Mr. Utley.) Proceed at once, if you please. 
 
 Mr. Utley. It is in answer to the question propounded by Mr. Win- 
 dom last evening that I wish to say a few words. The cost of transporta- 
 tion upon the river after the completion of the improvement will not be 
 over six mills per ton per mile, including State tolls — reasonable tolls 
 on the locks. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. What river do you speak of? 
 
 A. The Illinois Eiver. I will make a little explanation. The state- 
 ment I made of the cost on the canal, of a cent and seventy-five-hun- 
 dredths being the cost of transportation — I meant by that as taking 
 corn for a basis. There are many articles — coals, for instance— where 
 the tolls are small, nominal, and the cost of transportation, I presume, 
 is not more than one cent and a quarter per ton per mile. The business 
 of the Illinois Eiver, which we expect to come when it is once improved, 
 will be largely increased, aside from the products of the country. It is 
 demonstrated pretty clearly that to make cheap iron and cheap steel in 
 this State it requires a union of the iron ores from Lake Superior and 
 the iron ores from Missouri in the proportion of about 45 and 55 per 
 cent. It takes a ton and three-fourths of these ores to make a ton of iron, 
 and two and three-fourths tons of coal. Coal is very abundant on the 
 banks of the river, and consequently they must fetch the ores to the coal. 
 There is one establishment erected at Joliet that is second to but one 
 on the continent. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 Q. Do you mean to make pig-iron ? 
 
 A. Manufactured iron, rails, and steel. This establishment is ready 
 to use 10,000 tons a year for the first year, and increase very largely 
 
278 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 with, iron ores from Lake Superior and Missouri the moment they can 
 get up the river; but there is no way, and they cannot get up. They 
 have already erected their furnaces, and are using about 400 tons of 
 coal a day now, doing an immense business with iron and steel rails. 
 They have erected their blasting-furnaces to use these ores as soon as 
 they could get the ore up the river. 
 
 The amount of zinc that is made at La Salle is larger than at any 
 other town in the world, I am told. There are five or six furnaces there. 
 Their ore is brought from the North to the coal in Illinois Eiver valley. 
 I thought perhaps that the cost of transportation was a little important. 
 
 Through tnis lock at Henry, and the ones that we propose to build 
 down the river, and are building, we can pass twelve canal-boats at 
 once in 13 minutes. The dimensions of the lock are these : 350 feet long 
 between the lock-gates, and 75 feet wide. 
 
 When I said to-day the largest lock in the world — there are two or 
 three building that are some wider, but none any longer. It was built 
 at a larger cost, to make it correspond with the ideas of the United 
 States engineers, with whom, I am glad to say, we have a perfect under- 
 standing, and a pleasant one also. 
 
 The charges by the Eock Island road from Henry, on corn, to Chicago 
 were 11 cents per hundred pounds previous to the 1st of July last At 
 that point they were in competition with the river. From the town of 
 Tiskilwa, about the same distance from Chicago, it was 15 cents a hun- 
 dred, that part of the line not being in competition with the r ver. 
 
 Q. The canal and railroad being in competition at Henry, and there 
 being no competition at Tiskilwa ? 
 
 A. That is it, sir. isow, their charges at the same time from La Salle, 
 a hundred miles from Chicago, are 9 cents a hundred pounds on corn. 
 Their charges from Chillicothe, which is one hundred and forty miles 
 from Chicago, are also 11 cents a hundred pounds on corn. There they 
 were in competition with the river again. 
 
 Q. What river? 
 
 A. The Illinois Eiver ; it is down below Henry. 
 
 C. M. Gray, assistant general freight agent Lake Shore and Michigan 
 Southern Railroad, examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Will you please state your official position in connection 
 with the railroad I 
 
 Answer. Assistant general freight agent of the Lake Shore and Mich- 
 igan Southern road. 
 
 Q. Who are the gentlemen in this city who, with you, establish 
 freights eastward ? 
 
 A. The general freight agent of the Michigan Central and the assist- 
 ant general freight agent of the Fort Wayne road act in concert with 
 me in establishing the east-bound rates. 
 
 Q. How long have you been engaged in that business? 
 
 A. About nineteen years. 
 
 Q. How are these freights fixed ; upon what principle, and in what 
 manner as to agreement with other parties ; do you meet together as 
 agents and fix the freights, or how is that 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we have no organization at all. It is simply a courtesy 
 notice that it is proper to consult with reference to advance or reduc- 
 tion of rates ; we meet together, and if we deem it proper to advance, 
 we do so, and the same is usual in the way of reduction. We are gov- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 279 
 
 «rned by the quantity moving and the price of freights by lake. The 
 lake craft take the lead in reducing the rates, and they also have a very 
 decided influence in the advance of rates when it comes towards winter. 
 If they are carrying very high, so that it comes near to the railways, we 
 immediately advance a little and keep a little above them all the time. 
 
 Q. The principle on which you fix your rates, then, as I understand 
 you, is the demand and supply of freights to be moved, and the rates on 
 the lake? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. And after you make the agreement as to rates as you have spoken 
 of, the companies are in honor bound to adhere to them, I suppose ¥ 
 
 A. O, yes ; we publish a tariff in printed forms. 
 
 Q. State, if you please, how the cutting occurs. Sometimes, you know, 
 we have what they call " blood-letting" by the roads, and they " cut un- 
 der." How does that arise ¥ 
 
 A. It arises most invariably with men who have little influence and 
 want judgment. There is nothing gained by it. 
 
 Q. The cause of it is, from some person undertaking to carry below 
 your rates ¥ 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; some persons think that they can secure a large quan- 
 tity of freight by making a private rate less than the published rate. 
 That soon shows, however, and if there is a scarcity of freight it forces 
 all the other lines clown. ' They drop down, sometimes without any con- 
 certed action whatever. That is very apt to be the case on the decline 
 of freights from the winter to the summer rates in the spring of the 
 year. They drop without consulting one another. 
 
 Q. Is the Baltimore and Ohio included in this consultation ¥ 
 
 A. No, sir ; all of their freights are carried over our lines, and they are 
 subject to our rates. 
 
 Q. Have you any running connection with any lines on the lake ¥ 
 
 A. No, sir ; none whatever. In former years we used to run a great 
 deal of freight to Toledo and ship from there by lake. 
 
 Q. To where? To Buffalo ¥ 
 
 A. To Buffalo. We used to make a through rate; it was called the 
 " Lake and Bail rates" at those times. 
 
 Q. Do you remember what the pro rata was between the railroad 
 company and the lakes at that time ¥ 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the division of earnings from Chicago to and from New 
 York, was 67 per cent, east of Toledo, and 33 per cent. west. 
 
 Q. That is, when it passed by water from Toledo to Buffalo, and then 
 on by rail ¥ 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the distance from here to Toledo ¥ 
 
 A. Two hundred and forty-four miles. 
 
 Q. And from Toledo to Buffalo by water, how much¥ 
 
 A. That is a nominal distance, you know. In making up the divis- 
 ions it is called one hundred and fifty miles ; it is actually three hun- 
 dred. 
 
 Q. It is actually three hundred ¥ 
 
 A. Yes, sir. We allow them as to milage one hundred and fifty miles 
 to Lake Erie. That has been assented to for many years. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether there are ever any combinations on the lake 
 between the shippers, in fixing the rates of freight, or any agreements 
 among them ¥ 
 
 A. I think there are none whatever. I do not think there have ever 
 been any. They do not seem to act in concert. They, go on and change 
 
280 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 and bid for rates against one another, and always have since my knowl- 
 edge of the business. Sometimes when freights are plenty, they are 
 more open with their bids for freights. When freights are scarce they 
 make their offer " P. T."— private terms. It is not found out probably 
 for two or three days afterward. 
 
 Q. Do you find any practical difficulty in the winter time on moving 
 eastward freight brought into Chicago from the West? 
 
 A. O, yes, sir ; there is a great difficulty in the winter time. 
 
 Q. On what account ? 
 
 A. It is mainly on account of want of rolling-stock here. That is 
 caused in part by want of facilities to the sea-board— a great want of 
 facilities for holding and receiving and promptly unloading and return- 
 ing the cars to us. It makes us short of cars on our road. 
 
 Q. They are detained there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; they are detained a long time in the very height of the 
 season, and, of course, there is difficulty in moving the freight. We 
 have to cut it off. Now, last winter the amount of east-bound freight 
 was so large, and the difficulties on the other lines— I mean the. Fort 
 Wayne line, and the North Shore and Michigan Central line— they sus- 
 pended for six weeks. Ours was the only line that ran, and we had to 
 cut off all the freight west of Chicago, and receive nothing except the 
 local freight of Chicago. 
 
 Q. Why did they suspend 1 
 
 A. Bad condition of tracks ; cars loaded and could not be unloaded ; 
 the difficulty of crossing the Detroit Biver on the Michigan Central. 
 That was peculiar to that. 
 
 Q. What effect does that pressure have on the charges eastward 1 
 
 A. None whatever ; it made no difference in the charges whatever. 
 We fixed our charges in October, I think it was. They arrived at the 
 maximum, and we just agreed to say that is the winter rate, and it was 
 maintained through the winter. 
 
 Q. And the accumulation that you found here at the end of the em- 
 bargo was moved at the same rates that it was before f 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; there was no change in the rate until the break in 
 spring. 
 
 Q. Then rates went lower 1 
 
 A. Then they dropped down gradually to 45 cents on the great sta- 
 ple freights to New York ; it was 65 during the winter. 
 
 By, Mr. Dates : 
 
 Q. What is the rate now ? 
 
 A. Fifty-five. They have advanced 10 cents. Forty-five was the 
 rate until this recent advance, three weeks ago. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Is that advance due to the increased demand for 
 freight ? 
 
 A. Do you mean the recent advance ? 
 
 Q. Yes. 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it was beyond the capacity of the roads to furnish cars. 
 
 By Mr. Davis. What is the per cent, of difference usually between 
 the winter and the summer rates ? How much do you have to advance 
 in the winter ? 
 
 A. Our rates last winter were 65. Our lowest summer rate a year 
 ago this past summer was 40. This summer our lowest rate has been 
 45 cents, and we have not arrived at our winter maximum at all. 
 
 Q. You speak of arranging your freight on the three roads you speak 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 281 
 
 of, the Fort Wayne, and the two Michigans, so-called. Is it left en- 
 tirely to the freight agents, or are the companies consulted 1 
 
 A. There are sometimes when a suggestion may come from the east- 
 ern line that we ought to advance, and in that case the officers, I mean 
 the presidents of the lines, which are all east, are consulted ; hut 
 almost universally, in the case of a change of rate, it is done by the 
 agents here. 
 
 Q. By the general freight agent 1 
 
 A. By the general freight agent, or their representatives of the three 
 great roads going east from here. 
 
 Q. Now, if two of them say they ought to have been advanced and 
 one says not, is it a rule with you that the majority rules ? 
 
 A. That is the rule, but we do not always insist upon it. Take a case in 
 point : A pressure was brought to bear upon our officers Bast for an 
 advance by the general manager of the Fort Wayne road. It was sug- 
 gested by the Pennsylvania people, and they appealed to our general 
 manager — our acting director really — Mr. Stone, of Cleveland, to order 
 his officers to make an advance. Mr. Stone wrote me in reference to it, 
 wishing I would consult with the other men here in reference to an ad- 
 vance. I was perfectly willing to advance myself ; it would not make 
 a snap of difference with us. I went to the Michigan Central officers, 
 and they were decidedly opposed to an advance. They had a good 
 deal of freight on hand at the old rate that they were not able to get 
 out of the elevators here in time, and they did not think it judicious to 
 advance. Since that time this financial crisis has come on, and we 
 have prevailed on the Pennsylvania people to put it off one week; 
 did not like to advance and did not like them to advance. We hold the 
 rate under them ; they put it off. The question of advance is pending 
 to day whether the two lines shall advance and leave the one out run- 
 ning at a lower rate. I do not. suppose, however, that it will take place. 
 It is a thing that never did take place yet. No line could afford to put 
 itself in that position before the public. 
 
 Q. Now, that is an advance from 55 cents to what? 
 
 A. From 55 to 60 to New York. I think myself that it is a very in- 
 judicious move, and I got the assent of our chief officers at Cleveland, 
 this morning, to that effect ; that they thought under the circumstances 
 that it was premature, and not advisable under any circumstances. 
 
 Q. Your line runs in connection with the Erie more particularly^ 
 does it not ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or New York Central? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we run on both roads. We work over both of them. 
 We have the lines over our roads that run regularly on each of these 
 roads. 
 
 Q. Has the New York Central water transportation from here or not ? 
 How is that ? 
 
 A. I do not know. I cannot speak positively in regard to that. I 
 have understood, however, that they have a line of boats that run in 
 conjunction with them from Chicago. How far they control those 
 boats I am unable to say. 
 
 Q. I think I saw a line here which was pointed out to us running 
 in connection — the Western Transportation Line. 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is the line. 
 
 Q. Bunning in connection with the New York Central ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it does. 
 
282 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Q. Do you know the way they regulate the freight between them— 
 in what way they^ro rata f 
 
 A. No, sir ; I never took any notice of that at all. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge that you can give us on that point ? The 
 object is to see how much cheaper, if at all, they haul than all rail 
 routes — how they divide their freights. 
 
 A. I would tell you in a moment, if I knew, without any hesitation at 
 all, but I do not know. I do not know what their terms are. 
 
 Q. Who could give us the information as to how they pro-rate? 
 
 A. As I understand it— I do not understand it particularly from the of- 
 ficers of the road at all — they are always to have the same rate as the rail- 
 line. If they have any less 1 do not know anything about it. Some years 
 ago there was an arrangement with some of the boat- lines by which they 
 got a trifle less — a couple of cents. I think, however, that was all laid 
 aside. I would rather not say anything about it, and, in fact, I do not 
 know anything about it. It was before the lines consolidated as they 
 are now in their working. 
 
 Q. Do you have the regulating of what is termed the through lines 
 of transportation — the different lines, the Blue line, &c. ? 
 
 A. We make the rates for those lines. They run over our respective 
 roads — some on one road and some on another — and we make the rates 
 for those lines and they have to carry them out, and are not allowed to 
 vary from them. 
 
 Q. Is that rate the same as they have been talking about to-day— 55? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then that rate, if application is made to you on one of these 
 lines, it is the same t 
 
 A. Yes, sir; if a man should come to me to-day and want to ship 
 freight I would ask him what line he wanted it to go by. He would 
 say Red line, Great Western, Empire, or.Shore line. I would send it by 
 any line he said at the same rate. 
 
 Q." If he makes no choice then you select yourself 1 ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we send it whichever way is most convenient. 
 
 Q. Does all the freight go by some one of these lines, or does some 
 go that does not belong to any of the lines'? 
 
 A. There is a great deal of optional freight comes to me. I have a 
 great deal of freight consigned to me direct from the back country— 
 from San Francisco, Salt Lake, all over Iowa, Wisconsin, and Minne- 
 sota. That is an optional freight, and I send it by any line I please. 
 These is no line mentioned at all. 
 
 Q. Does each of these lines have an office and an agent here? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; they are obliged to keep representatives for each line. 
 
 Q. How are they paid t 
 
 A. They are paid a salary. 
 
 Q. By the railroad companies ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; all the agents of the different lines are sustained by 
 salaries. 
 
 Q. They have not a percentage in the lines ? 
 
 A. None on our roads. 
 
 John Newell, president of the Illinois Central Railroad, examined: 
 
 By the CHAIRMAN : 
 Question. We will be obliged to you if you will tell us what you know 
 about railroads. 
 Answer. Well, gentlemen, I have come to the conclusion, like many 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 283 
 
 people, that I know but very little about a business I have been follow- 
 ing for a life- time. 
 
 Q. Well, commence with the causes of complaint against the railroads 
 in this locality and State. Do you know what they are and what the 
 foundation is for them ? There are complaints of discrimination and of 
 overcharge. I believe that covers the ground, substantially. 
 
 A. Those are pretty deep questions. I have thought considerably of 
 the matter. The great cause of complaint here in Illinois was first 
 created by the low price of corn last year, and that was simply brought 
 around by causes that I suppose were not under the control of anybody 
 here; it was brought around simply by the immense over-production, 
 which put the value of the surplus simply at the price at which the 
 European supply could be delivered in Great Britain; or, in other 
 words, the Liverpool price controlled the price here, and the cost of get- 
 ting it to the sea-board, difficulty with the freight crossing the ocuan — 
 which were large and have been increasing since — left a margin here of 
 18 to 20 cents a bushel at the stations around Illinois last fall, which 
 was an exceedingly low price. That is, as I view it, the. fundamental 
 cause of the complaint. But, beyond that, the farmers and shippers all 
 about the State have discovered that the local charges of all of our rail- 
 ways here where competition did not exist were a good deal higher than 
 they were where there was competition. We have all discovered that 
 where we cannot get the price we want for carrying on business, to pay 
 a fair dividend on the values of the property, we take what we can get, 
 and the consequence was that we were all hauling property from com- 
 peting stations at a great deal less rates thau from intermediate sta- 
 tions. That, of course, attracted attention here, and perhaps was the 
 immediate cause of the great complaint about discrimination and about 
 extortion. 
 
 But, as I view it, the other cause is really the fundamental cause of 
 the whole complaint. The prices for the transportation for one hundred 
 and fifty or one hundred miles out of Chicago, on grain, are perhaps 3 
 to 4 cents per ton per mile, while rates from here to the sea-board, and 
 from the same stations in the interior of Illinois to the sea-board by 
 direct route, were about a cent and an eighth to a cent and a half per 
 ton per mile. People seeing this difference, say " You are extortionate," 
 where we chaTge from 3 to 4 cents. On the other hand, the prices that 
 we get — taking Mattoon, one hundred and seventy-three miles south of 
 Chicago — it has a road direct to New York, all rail, it has 5 cents a hun- 
 dred above the rates existing from Chicago at the same time ; some- 
 times 1Q cents, and from 5 to 10 cents is the difference. We have hauled 
 a good deal of grain from Mattoon for 10 cents a hundred pounds. We 
 charge from Kankakee, fifty-six miles south of here, I think, 11 cents, 
 if my memory is correct ; and you see 11 cents for fifty-six miles, and 10 
 cents for one hundred and seventy-three miles creates at once this feel- 
 ing of extortion and unjust discrimination. Now, those two states of fact 
 are the real cause of the complaint in this State against the railways. 
 Q. What are the causes of that discrimination f 
 A. The principle is simply this : We say that the prices we are charg- 
 ing for local business are fair prices, and on which only we can maintain 
 a fair income upon the value of the roads. For when we come to a sta- 
 tion where the business either goes away from it or is taken at a small 
 advance over the cost, we say we will keep that business as a small help 
 added to the general result, and enable us to make much better divi- 
 dends. That is to say, if we continued our high rate we would lose en- 
 tirely a traffic which pays us a small profit ; and we judge it better to 
 
284 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 retain that small profit, as it helps, if you please, to keep down the prices 
 at an intermediate station. 
 
 Q. Your theory, then, is that your prices are reasonable at the inter- 
 mediate stations and unreasonably low at the others. 
 
 A. Yes, that is our position. We say this : The volume of business 
 upon the majority of the lines of Illinois and the States west of Illinois 
 is so small that they cannot afford to take a price which, upon a line 
 worked up to its capacity, will yield a fair profit. 
 
 There are none of the lines in Illinois, even single tracks, worked up 
 to their capacity. I might, possibly,' except the Burlington road, hav- 
 ing a great many branch lines in the West. It is doubling its tracks,! and 
 is perhaps worked up to its capacity as a single-track road. Bat apart 
 from that there are no railroads in this State, or west of here, which 
 are worked up to anything like their capacity as a whole. 
 
 Q. Have you ever made an estimate as to the net percentage paid on 
 all roads of the State "I 
 
 A. No, sir. This morning, after getting notice to come here, I set a 
 clerk to work with Poor's Manual to get up some figures, but found 
 they were not entirely correct. It occurred to me that you had all that 
 information yourselves, and that it would be of ho use for me to at- 
 tempt to present that to you. I had this statement made, and unfortu- 
 nately I left it on my desk as I came away. I supposed I had it in my 
 pocket. 
 
 The average earnings in this State were a little over $8,000 a mile for 
 all the roads; and the earnings in this State are double, I think, those 
 of either Iowa or Wisconsin. In the State of Minnesota you get only a 
 little over $3,500. I think Iowa is a little upwards of $4,000, and Wis- 
 consin $4,000. The expenses here I do not know how much. Our ex- 
 penses last year were 67 percent. 
 
 Q. You have high State taxes to pay ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; we suppose our taxes to be double that of any roads at 
 present. On the new basis that they are pressing here I suppose they 
 will be about the same as other roads. Ours is a fixed tax of 7 per cent. 
 of the gross earnings, amounting to $450,000 or $500,000. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS: 
 
 Q. That was due from the land-grant ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That was fixed as a tax in lieu of all other taxation ? 
 
 A, Yes 3 sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Have you in your mind the average cost per ton per mile of mov- 
 ing freight on your road ? 
 
 A. Our total earnings on freight last year were 2 r Yo cents per ton per 
 mile, aDd our expenses, 67 per cent., would make about a cent and four- 
 tenths the cost. But when I say that is the cost for moving freight— our 
 passenger business — we do not keep accounts in such a way that we can 
 say absolutely what the cost of the passenger and freight service is 
 separately. That is simply the average. My impression is that the 
 passenger service costs us 80 per cent, probably. The traffic is not large 
 in passengers, and the expenses are large in proportion. I think 80 to 
 90 per cent, is really our cost for passengers, which would bring the 
 freight cost down possibly to 62, or something like that. Our earnings 
 from freight are about three times as large as from passengers. 
 
 Q. What would that make the cost per ton per mile ? 
 
TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOARD. 285 
 
 A. That would be 1^ cents per ton per mile as the cost. 
 
 Q. Tour road has do steep grades ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; we have no grades over 40 feet per mile. Forty feet is 
 the maximum. But, with the exception of the two hundred and fifty 
 miles, from here to Centralia, where we have no grades of over 32 feet 
 per mile, we have on the remainder of the line 40 feet grading so fre- 
 quently that it is really the ruling grade. That is, we assume that our 
 trains have to haul over 40-foot grades. We haul on an average about 
 twenty-three cars over 40-foot grades. 
 
 When I give cost it is the operating expenses and State taxes in- 
 cluded. I shall be glad to send you a copy of our report, giving a full 
 statement of the operations of last year in detail. I had one in my 
 pocket which I intended to have brought, but accidentally left it. 
 
 Now, our cost is, I suppose, about as low as that of any road in this 
 State, having equal tonnage per mile, and for its length. For a long 
 distance we can haul freights a good deal less per mile than short dis- 
 tances. We can haul freight from Dubuque to Cairo, four hundred and 
 fifty miles, a good deal less than we can haul it from Dubuque here, 
 two hundred miles. And we can do it for this reason, that our supply of 
 fuel in Southern Illinois is obtained at a low rate. I pay down there 
 not over an average of $1.40, perhaps a third of the 3'ear, per ton for 
 coal, while in the northern part of the State we pay $2.25, and have to 
 haul it along distance. At the lower end of the road we get coal within 
 thirty-six miles of Cairo, and from there up continuously a hundred 
 miles. 
 
 We have one locomotive, out of one hundred and ninety-seven, burn- 
 ing wood, and that is simply for the convenience of a paymaster who 
 does not like a coal-smoke in his car. I do not think there is any long 
 road in the State that has as cheap fuel as we have. Some of the 
 shorter lines in the southern portion of the State, running east and 
 west, get on the average cheaper fuel than ours, and no others. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 Q. What did you say was the cost of your fuel in the southern part 
 of the State? 
 A. About $1.40 it averages by the year per ton. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What, in your judgment, would be the reduction that could be made 
 on that double-track railroad, properly equipped, running at the most 
 profitable rate of speed — I mean reduction from your rates in this State 
 — that is, the cost 1 ? 
 
 A. 1 do not know what the average rates of the eastern lines are, but 
 they carry freight from the West to the sea-board — the through trunk- 
 lines — from one cent and one-eighth to one and one-half cents per ton 
 per mile. In the summer they frequently haul freight from here at 45 
 cents a hundred, and sometimes a little less than that. They " shade " 
 that, as they call it, say 40 cents. There has been a large quantity 
 moved a year ago this summer at 40 cents, that is $8 a ton for 900 
 miles — less 'than a cent per ton per mile. 
 
 Now, I assume that they have lost nothing in moving that freight, 
 but my impression is that eight-tenths is about as low as they can 
 move it at the present cost of fuel, iron, labor, and other expenses of 
 railroads. If that is so, I Would say that I believe we can move, here in 
 Illinois, upon our line of railway, if we were fully employed and had ample 
 business to keep double-track road busy, we could move freight prob- 
 
286 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 ably as low as it is moved from here to the sea-board, these conditions 
 of grade and fuel being probably as low as you can find in the East 
 Our fuel is lower, probably, than any railway except the Baltimore and 
 Ohio. 1 will say if we had business to keep the railway constantly" em- 
 ployed, we could probably get it down to that rate ; but in regard to that 
 matter I suppose it is impossible for any one to make any accurate esti- 
 mate of the cost of doing this work. I believe even on the Pennsyl- 
 vania and New York Central roads, which are the only two roads that 
 are really working up to their capacity as double-track roads, they 
 cannot tell you absolutely and with certainty the exact cost. I 
 was a year on the New York Central, in 1868, and I know my mind 
 was turned in that direction, and I attempted to make an accurate esti- 
 mate of the cost of moving freight, and could not find data to do it satis- 
 factorily. 
 
 Q. Would there be any advantages; if so, what, in a double-track 
 freight- railroad, such as is proposed, over the present mixed system of 
 doing passenger and freighting together! 
 
 A. My impression in regard to that matter is that if you could have a 
 double-track freight-railroad, the first cost of which is no greater, say, 
 than the New York Central route — I assume that capital has got to be 
 paid, and that the first cost would be the same as the New York Cen- 
 tral — the conditions the same as to grade, cost of fuel, labor, iron, and 
 all that — then there might be a slight reduction made in the cost of 
 transportation on a road having only freight-trains .; for it does cost a 
 little something in time, and labor, and interest on the cars delayed, to 
 get these passenger-trains by the freight-trains. In other words, the 
 freight-trains are delayed more on the present lines than they would be 
 on the through lines you indicate. But beyond that I think there wonld 
 be no saving, and I think there would be but a slight saving there. 
 
 My own belief is that with the present railways with the double 
 tracks, and four tracks as the New York Central proposes,, they will 
 move as cheaply as it can be done upon the exclusively freight-railway. 
 That is my belief about it, but of course it is only an opinion. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. I understand your judgment is eight-tenths'? 
 
 A. No. I say if they are now doing (heir work at eight-tenths, I said 
 before, I think that in the Illinois Central, with such grades and the 
 cost of fuel we have, we could do our work at eight- tenths. Now, I 
 think if they are doing it at that rate, that, with the four tracks, and 
 with just such a volume of freight as can be moved upon the two tracks 
 kept exclusively for freight, that it will reduce their cost. 
 Q. What do you call a reduction 9 
 
 A. Five-hundredths of a cent. If it is now eight-tenths, I do not be- 
 lieve they would get it below ^ s with this change. In laying the ad- 
 ditional tracks they have additional capital, of course. The cost of the 
 grading and the cost of the tracks is pretty nearly as much per mile as 
 was the original cost of grading. 
 
 Q. They report that the actual cost to them, exclusively of interest or 
 dividends, on the Pennsylvania Central, is eight mills and a fraction per 
 ton per mile. 
 
 A. If you use figures which I give, T 8 ff for instance, I would simply say 
 they are based on this assumption : that that is the cost now upon that 
 line. But I do not think the increased expense due to the mixing up 
 of the two trains carrying two kinds of business on the same tracks is so 
 large as to be very appreciably felt. I do not think it is. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 287 
 
 Q. Have you given any attention to the probable effects of tbe im- 
 provement of the Mississippi River, and opening tbe mouth of that 
 river 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is a matter that has come directly under our obser- 
 vation, aud a matter in which our company is directly interested in this 
 wise: I hold this, first, that the water-channels from the West to the 
 sea-board are always to be the cheaper line of transportation ; that the 
 cost upon the railways can never be brought so low as it may be brought 
 by water. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. In what proportion % 
 
 A. I will say this, roughly : Assume 45 cents a hundred as the cheap- 
 est rate from here to New York by railway, that is, $9 a ton ; now we 
 reduce it to bushels of corn, because I have the price of corn fixed in 
 my mind — 45 cents a hundred for 56 pounds is 25 T 2 „ cents a bushel. 
 Now, as against that low rate, vessels can carry corn from here to Buf- 
 falo and make as much as railroads do, at 5 cents a bushel ; and the 
 party who owns a barge which did tow two other barges last year says 
 that at 5 cents a bushel he can run his barge, pay all expenses, and get 
 7 per cent, interest on his money, at from 4£ to 5 cents a bushel. Now 
 the ordinary rate through the canal for corn is 11 cents; that makes 
 16 cents. Of course we must add the charge for handling at Buffalo, 
 which would be a cent a bushel ; that makes 17 cents ; and, if vou please, 
 add another cent for insurance, and that makes 18 qents a bushel. Now, 
 45 cents a hundred from here to New York is 25 cents a bushel. I will 
 say that relative difference can be maintained ; that is to say, if condi- 
 tions can be brought around by which rail transportation can be reduced 
 by the reduction in cost of rails and coal and labor, that the same items 
 of expense can in the same manner be reduced on the lakes in the cost 
 of the vessel and the cost of running. I say that 18 to 25 cents is per- 
 haps the relative rate from here to New York. 
 
 Then, again, if our neighbors here in Canada carry out the system of 
 enlargement, of first the Welland and then the other canals to Montreal, 
 I believe that, as against 18 cents to New York, we can put corn in Mon- 
 treal (assuming 5 cents from here to Buffalo) at 7 cents more from 
 Buffalo to Montreal, or 9 cents at the outside; or 14 cents as against 18 
 cents to New York. Now, those, to my mind, are the relative prices by 
 water to the Atlantic sea-board. 
 
 As against that, I will assume that from the center of the corn-raising 
 district on our line from Central Illinois it costs 10 cents a bushel, which 
 is about the rate to Chicago. It costs the same rate to Cairo. We will 
 assume Cairo, then, as a shipping port to the sea-board, equally well 
 situated with Chicago ; that being so, the price from Cairo to New Or- 
 leans is now 14 cents. That is tbe price to-day ; but it is also 14 from 
 here to Buffalo. Now, as against the 5 cents to Buffalo, which is put as 
 the maximum, you can safely put 7 cents from Cairo to New Orleans as 
 the price in these large barges. Then you have 7 cents a bushel to the 
 sea-board, for New Orleans is at the sea-board if that canal down there 
 is completed. You have 7 cents a bushel to New Orleans as against 14 
 cents to Montreal, and 18 cents to New York by water or 25 cents to 
 New York by rail. There is that 18 cents a bushel difference in the 
 cost to New Orleans as against the cost by rail to New York. Assum- 
 ing 6 cents to 7 cents to be a fair ocean freight, 7 cents being enough 
 under any of the present conditions from New York — from New Or- 
 leans they want 50 per cent, more — they would want ten-pence halfpenny, 
 
288 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 or 21 cents. The difference would be three-pence halfpenny, or 7 cents— 
 7 from 25 leaves 18. You have got a gain really from Illinois to Liver- 
 pool of 18 cents as against New York by rail, or by water to New York 
 we have 4. cents cheaper than by rail to New York. I have not taken 
 insurance into account in that. 
 
 Now, there is this thing about New Orleans : Our shipments therefor 
 two years past (last year and the year before) were about a million to a 
 million and a quarter bushels of corn, about two-thirds of which was 
 exported. Last year there was something over a million' and a half 
 altogether from New Orleans ; but of course you have the statistics for 
 that ; and of that exportation during the whole of last year, the sales 
 in Liverpool and the condition were fully up to the condition of grain 
 shipped at the same time from New York. In other words, this climatic 
 difficulty, which is by some claimed to be a great bar to shipments by 
 New Orleans, last year was not, and we suppose it simply because the 
 corn of year before last was thoroughly ripened. We assume here that 
 when the corn-crop is mature and perfect it can be shipped to New Or- 
 leans even in the summer with perfect safety. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. If it is no't well matured, would it not be damaged by the. other 
 route 1 
 
 A. I think the Montreal route is a better route than the New Orleans 
 route, so far as damage is concerned ; but I think the New Orleans 
 route at present fully, equal to the Erie Canal. I think that the temper- 
 ature along the Erie Canal is probably higher during the summer than 
 it is in New Orleans ; not the average, but there are days together 
 during which corn afloat on the Erie Canal would be subjected to a 
 greater heat than in New Orleans or in the Gulf of Mexico. 
 
 Q. Does the moisture of the climate have any effect upon it? 
 
 A. Not when any large quantities go ; but when the corn itself is 
 moist, then the heat of the atmosphere and the water together creates 
 damage. 
 
 I returned the first of this week from the other side, and I made par- 
 ticular inquiries at Liverpool and at Cork about the conditions of the 
 cargoes from New Orleans. I found in Liverpool a tendency to favor 
 the New York route ; that is, they say the New Orleans business is 
 uncertain. But my information there was obtained from large dealers 
 who were at the same time interested ju the lines of steamers from 
 New York. One of the gentlemen was a director in the National line. 
 Now, at Queenstown and Cork they told me that while they had some 
 cargoes from New Orleans that were in very bad condition, yet as a 
 whole the New Orleans cargoes were in pretty fair condition ; but they 
 did not there say they were better than the cargoes from New York. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Why do you assume 7 cents as the charge from Cairo now, while 
 you say it is really 15 cents f 
 
 A. I say this: that the charge now from Cairo is 14 cents, and so the 
 charge was week before last 14 cents. Now, I say, as against the 5 
 cents which we allow from here to Buffalo as the lowest freight, we may, 
 count on 7 cents from Cairo to New Orleans as the lowest. I wish to 
 keep the same comparison. 
 
 Q. You assume that the mouth of the river 
 
 A. Now, the situation in regard to that is this : They cannot count 
 on over 18 feet of water at the mouth of the river. That being so, they 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD, 289 
 
 cannot run a vessel to New Orleans that will run economically as against 
 the New York harbor. The vessels running into New York draw from 
 21 up to 24 and 25 feet, and they say that in constructing these steamers, 
 to construct them of large size, which they must do to carry freight 
 cheaply, they cannot do it on this shallow water. Now, that being so, 
 
 1 think it is absolutely necessary to insure 23 and 24 feet of water in 
 New Orleans ; and if that water were there, I believe to-day that our 
 shipments of corn by the way of New Orleans to Europe would be, in- 
 stead of a million bushels a year, six or eight millions. Of course I can- 
 not say that is absolutely so, but I think it would be so. And I think 
 for the country west of the Mississippi Eiver there would be greater 
 advantages than to the Central Illinois people, who have these low rates 
 to the sea-board. As you go West they are higher, of course, and the 
 country bordering on the Mississippi and Missouri could find an outlet 
 south at relatively greater advantage than could Central Illinois. 
 
 Q. Is there now any proper convenience at New Orleans for 
 transfer ? < 
 
 A. They charge there 2 cents a bushel for the first ten days. They 
 have one elevator at New Orleans, its capacity being, I think, about 
 600,000 bushels. I am not absolutely certain about that ; but they 
 charge for receiving in that elevator, holding ten days and delivering, 
 
 2 cents a bushel ; and in addition to that they have one floating eleva- 
 tor, probably as good a one as there is in the country. The charge by 
 the floating elevator for transferring from the barge into the ship I do 
 not know. It ought to be done about as cheaply in New Orleans as it 
 is done in New York. There is no reason why that service could not 
 and should not be done for about the same price. 
 
 Q. In your estimate there you take into account, as I understand the 
 question of my friend here, the insurance and the difference in freight? 
 
 A. No, sir. I remarked that, in making the difference of freight 50 
 per cent, at New Orleans over the price at New York, I did not include 
 the difference in insurance. 
 
 Q. What would that be ? 
 
 A. I am not sufficiently advised to give you accurately the difference. 
 It would be something, but no very large amount, per bushel. 
 
 Q. Have you given any thought to the Virginia routes going up 
 the Ohio? 
 
 A. No, sir, I have not, for the fact that with reference to water com- 
 munication there 1 have not that information which enables me to form 
 any judgment. I am not as well acquainted with the face of the coun- 
 try as I ought to be, to be able to give an opinion on that route. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Have you had occasion to consider the question of water commu- 
 nication from the mouth of the Mississippi Eiver along the line of the 
 Gulf and across the peninsula of Florida to the Atlantic ? 
 
 A. No, sir, except with reference to the outlet from the Gulf. I have 
 always supposed this : that while the route by Florida is not a very good 
 one for sailing vessels, steamers can always pass ; and the difference in 
 time in going around or through is so slight — I had not supposed that it 
 was of such importance as to require my attention ; but of that I am not 
 probably fully acquainted. For sailing ships I suppose, at times, it is 
 quite dangerous ; but steamers can get round there at all times safely. 
 
 Mr. Conover. It is very unsafe, even for steamers. 
 
 Mr. Newell. I have in the last two years spent a little time in New 
 Orleans, and have talked more or less with captains of steamers and 
 19 TS 
 
290 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 sailing vessels, but not on this subject ; but I have never heard them 
 mention the passage around the capes of Florida as being very objec- 
 tionable. The chief stress they lay is upon the fact of the difficulties of 
 the bar ; and that really is the great reasou why the port of Mew Or- 
 leans has not been a very large shipping port for all time past. 
 
 By the Chairman : . 
 
 Q. I was going to ask you, if these things are correct, why is it that 
 so little freight comes by the way of New Orleans ? 
 
 A. For the simple reason, as I said to you, that vessels that can be 
 run cheaply have got to be vessels of upwards of 20 feet draught of 
 water. Such vessels cannot come to New Orleans with any certainty of 
 getting in. In fact, in the last four years, there has been only one time 
 when there has been 20 feet of water that I know of, At one time our 
 agent in New Orleans telegraphed me as a great fact that there was that 
 day 21 feet of water on the bar ; but it was probably a high tide and an 
 exceptional circumstance. • 
 
 Mr. Norwood. I think they can only count on 16 or 17 feet. 
 
 Mr. Newell. Yes, sir, and they carry vessels jumping them at 18 
 feet. Now that fact strikes me as the great reason why there has not 
 been a larger business there. Of course the cotton is bound to go out 
 from there, and it generally pays a better freight than most any other 
 class of produce. That being the case, they can afford to send ships to 
 New Orleans to carry cotton that they could not afford to send to cany 
 corn. 
 
 By Mr. NORWOOD : 
 
 Q. They can afford to pay lighterage on that ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. At Mobile the cotton, as I understand it, is loaded from 
 the docks. I was not aware that they lightered very much in New- 
 Orleans. I had the impression that they got their vessels to the draught 
 they thought they would get over, and then took them down and jumped 
 them over, as they termed it. 
 
 Q. Do you understand that there are any serious difficulties between 
 Cairo to New Orleans ? 
 
 A. There are no serious difficulties as a rule. A year ago last spring 
 the water was very low, at the time the river was blockaded with ice 
 between Cairo and Columbus, for two weeks. That has occurred only 
 once before since 1855. J was at Cairo in 1856, the 1st of January, 
 when the river was blockaded up there, and I understand it has not 
 been blocked since that time until the year before last. The water 
 sometimes gets low, but at the time I refer to there was 4 feet 10 inches 
 of water only on the bar below Memphis ; but that was a very rare 
 occurrence. Now the Mississippi Valley Transportation Company have 
 built some thirty-eight barges for the carrying of bulky grain and other 
 produce down the river. Some of the lighter ones carry 35,000 bushels 
 of grain on 9 feet of water. At the rates at which they have carried it 
 in the past, I assume that you can carry that grain at less than the 
 price I have named, of 7 cents ordinarily. 
 
 Q. It was stated by the president of the Eock Island road this morn- 
 ing that out of the fifty -odd roads in the State there were but four that 
 gave any interest. 
 
 A. The Burlington, the Eock Island, the Chicago and Alton, the 
 Chicago, Burlington and Quincy, and the Illinois Central pay regular 
 dividends. The Northwestern pays dividends, but spasmodically. They 
 have paid no regular dividends, except on their preferred stock. As I 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE "SEABOARD 291 
 
 understand it, they paid their interest on that for some years back 
 without any interruption, but they pay no dividends upon their common 
 stock regularly. Now, the statement that there are but four roads 
 paying dividends is, in that, sense, correct. In addition to the North- 
 western I do not know of any other road in the State that has paid a 
 dividend for the last four years. 
 
 Q. Are there fifty-odd roads in the State ? 
 
 A. I cannot tell you ; but you will find in Poor's Manual a statement 
 of all the roads, and, as a rule, his statements are correct. He takes a 
 great deal of pains in making them. 
 
 Q. I understand you that your local freight, not from competing points, 
 is perhaps more than double what it would be from competing points ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir ; that was the case last year. That was the immediate 
 cause of this complaint, as I stated. 
 
 Q. Has that been remedied ? 
 
 A. That has been changed. We have now, under the statute of last 
 winter, regulated our tariff so that we are nowhere within this State 
 hauling freight a greater distance at a less price; in other words, we 
 comply with that law with reference to freights originating and deliv- 
 ered within the State. With reference to freight originating out of the 
 State and carried over it, we hold that that law has no application, and 
 act accordingly. But this immediate cause of complaint of discrimina- 
 tion is removed by our new tariff of July last. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. I will ask you the question I asked Mr. Walker this morning, and 
 get your opinion. Why do capitalists continue to invest their money 
 in railroads that pay no dividends? 
 
 A. I do not know that I can give you the absolute reason, but I will 
 give you my idea of it. In 1868 this State had about 3,300 or 3,400 
 miles of railroad. It has now 6,400. This gain of 3,000 miles of road 
 has been made chiefly in this wise : In 1868 the legislature authorized 
 municipalities to vote aid to new railroads. The municipalities all over 
 the State, led on by speculators— people in the business of building rail- 
 roads — voted aid to a large extent, generally, all over the State, the 
 aid ranging in one case as high as $8,000 a mile in local bonds, for 
 which the railroad companies were to give the stock. Now, these gen- 
 tlemen say : " Here is "a railroad wanted ;' we can go on and get this 
 local aid ; we will go along the route and get the vote, and if we can 
 get $5,000 a mile in local aid, that is very well." They go to work and 
 do it, and then go to a railroad contractor and say, " Here is this large 
 profit to be made in the building of this line." The contractor goes to 
 a banker in New York, with whom perhaps he is associated, and says : 
 " If you can place the bonds of such a railway to a sufficient extent to 
 build that line, we can pocket the profit of this local aid — these local 
 bonds." They do it ; and European capitalists five or six years ago, not 
 having acquired as much experience as they have now with the value 
 of this property, were eager to take these bonds at a low figure. They 
 were placed at a low figure, and money enough was raised to construct the 
 line out of bonds, and the contractors simply took as a profit the local 
 aid. Now, that, really, to my mind, is the reason why these roads have 
 been multiplied to such an extent. The individual profit made by the 
 contractors in building them has urged the construction of them. 
 
 Another thing I will say in connection with that, as my opinion. 
 The produce of the State, the tonnage to be moved upon the railways 
 in the State, locally has not increased 50 per cent., while the mileage 
 
292 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 has doubled. The result is that these railways have to work for years 
 to come, with the best rates they can possibly get, without dividends. 
 In other words, the construction here of the lines has been vastly in 
 excess of the necessities of the State, as a whole. 
 
 On the other hand, as against that, the people living upon these new 
 lines, who were twenty miles away from the railway before the new 
 lines were built, have, in the moving of their crops to the railway sta- 
 tions, made a saving in the cost of moving it, which justifies them in 
 the increased tax which they have to pay to obtain the roads, and 
 the increased price they have to pay for moving it upon the railroad, 
 assuming that all capital is going to get its interest. 
 
 Q. That explanation would apply to the State of Illinois. But we 
 find railways increasing all over the country, where municipalities, are 
 not engaged in building them. The idea is very general that railways 
 say they do not make any money ; but it is hard to understand why busi- 
 ness men, financial men, will continue to put their money in corpora- 
 tions that do not pay, when the fact is patent before them from the 
 record, according to the statements of railway men, that these rail- 
 roads will not pay, that they still go on and put their money in. 
 
 A. I will say, in regard to that, that if any gentleman goes to Europe, 
 and raises any money on any railway that is not paying interest, he 
 will do better than I think. In other words, you cannot raise money 
 to build a railroad in Illinois on the basis I have named ; you cannot 
 do it. The money for the construction of these railways has not been 
 raised in this State, nor in this country. It has been raised from the 
 bonds sold abroad. Very few of those bonds have been sold in this 
 country. There was one road particularly, in the southern part of the 
 State, that was constructed on bonds placed in New York. The 
 party who took those bonds has got them yet, cannot sell them, and has 
 to carry them. I refer now to the Springfield and Illinois Southeast- 
 ern road. There are other roads ; the Cairo and Vincennes road was built 
 on bonds placed in London. They are now in the hands of the banker. 
 Now, the reason they have been able to build these roads is this: 
 some of the lines in Illinois were making 10 per cent, dividends, as was 
 the Illinois Central. The prospectus of the parties selling the bonds 
 shows there is a population in the county and a traffic which will justify 
 earnings equal to those of the Illinois Central, for instance. That road 
 is well known in England and Holland. They go' there and say, " There 
 is a line that can do as well as the Illinois Central, and there are the 
 figures to prove it." They can sell these bonds, for the reason that the 
 surplus capital, getting only 2£ or 3 per cent., was willing to go-where it 
 could take 10 per cent. Now, in Amsterdam they say they will not 
 take anything except on a railroad making an interest at the present 
 time. In other words, they have become completely loaded with these 
 bonds to such an extent that they won't touch any other, and are en- 
 tirely dissatisfied. But a year and a half or two years ago these things 
 began to tighten, and in the last year and a half these lines have not 
 extended half so rapidly as they did previously. We have paid 10 per 
 cent, dividends on the stock since 1871. We actually earned last year 
 less than 8 per cent. ; but we had a reserve from the land-grant, and we 
 thought last year was an exceptional one, and the directors, as the stock- 
 holders were foreigners and might be disturbed at a reduction, said we 
 had better take the chance of continuing the 10 per cent, and make it 
 so as to prevent a feeling of dissatisfaction or panic among small hold 
 crs abroad. 
 
 We have never declared what is called a stock dividend. The 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 293 
 
 original stock was $17,000,000, and the original bonded debt was 
 $18,000,000. As the bonds have been retired, new stock has been is- 
 sued. The stock now stands $25,500,000. But the bonded debt has 
 been reduced to even a larger extent. It has been reduced more than 
 the stock has been increased. 
 
 Q. Was your road constructed then by money raised on bonds ? 
 
 A. Partially, yes, sir ; there were $17,000,000 raised on stock. The 
 stock was paid in full, but there were $17,000,000 in bonds. In other 
 words, $34,000,000 was the original amount raised in stock and bonds, 
 half and half. That was 705J miles of road. The bonds have been 
 retired, and ,as that has taken place stock has been issued, so that the 
 whole bonded debt and stock now stands $25,500,000 stock, and 
 $8,000,000 of bonds. About $33,500,000 is the total stock and bonded 
 debt at this time. 
 
 Q. What do you declare 10 per cent, on 1 
 
 A. On $25,500,000. 
 
 Q. What was the average cost of your road per mile ? 
 
 A. It now stands at a little upward of $48,000 per mile, road and 
 equipment. # 
 
 Q. Does that include repairs, betterments, and things of that kind ? 
 
 A. It includes betterments, improvements. We are continuing our 
 construction account right along. We add to that $34,000,000 the cost 
 of every locomotive or car, or the difference in value between iron fails 
 and steel, when we are laying steel — that difference we add to the capi- 
 tal account. 
 
 Q. What is the cost of the construction of your road per mile — the 
 railway itself? 
 
 A. I cannot give you the figures, sir ; but I will send you a report 
 which gives figures in such a way that you can have the whole worked 
 out. I do Dot remember the details of the cost of the road and equip- 
 ment. We have about 5,000 cars and 200 locomotives. But in regard 
 to that, I will give you a report which gives the exact figures. I do not 
 attempt to carry them in my mind. 
 
 Q. Tours is nearly a south road, is it not ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do not the roads running on latitudes pay better than those run- 
 ning on longitudes? 
 
 A. As a general rule, I think it is the fact. There are exceptions, 
 however, as to that, but take it, for instance, between the Mississippi 
 River and the Atlantic sea-board, and east and west lines, as a rule, are 
 the better rails, 
 
 Q. East of the Mississippi? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I have read a good many articles in the papers about this 
 bar at the mouth of the river at New Orleans, and there are a great many of 
 them that have weight on the subject. But if my ideas about the cost are 
 anything like correct, and if the experience of two years past with 
 reference to the condition with which grain may be shipped through 
 New Orleans is correct, then there is certainly very great necessity for 
 doing something in the improvement of that bar 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. I understand you to state that practically from Cairo there will be 
 no interruption from the ice? 
 
 A. Not as a rule. There will be exceptions, but, as a rule, the inter- 
 ruptions will be very slight. 
 
 Q. They are rare and short. 
 
294 TRANSPORT ATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. Tes, sir; two weeks is the longest one. 
 
 Q. How would it be from Saint Louis ? 
 
 A. Prom Saint Louis the navigation is obstructed for during the pe- 
 riod of a month and six weeks very mucb. But from there there is low 
 water. The water between Cairo and Saint Louis is much less than 
 below Cairo. They frequently have as low as 3 feet 6 to 4 feet between 
 Saint Louis and Cairo, when there is 7 feet below Cairo. The Ohio . 
 coming in adds to the volume and keeps the channel deeper. Another 
 thing : the ice below Cairo is affected. I suppose there would be more 
 ice, but from the fact that the Cumberland and Tennessee come from 
 rather a warm region and prevent the accumulation of ice at those 
 points. 
 
 Charles E. Culver, president of the Board of Trade of Chicago, 
 examined : 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Will you be kind enough to give us some idea of the man- 
 ner of doing produce business in this city ; I mean as to how wheat, 
 corn, &c, are handled ; whether it is shipped through, or purchased 
 here, or consigned by parties West ? 
 
 Answer. All those different modes you mention prevail; but the 
 usual way of doing business is for parties in the country to buy at the 
 different 'stations along the railways, in those towns on the Illinois and 
 Michigan Canal and Biver, and consign it to commission houses in 
 Chicago. They hold, or sell on arrival, as ordered, and account to their 
 own correspondents for the property. 
 
 Q. There is, then, but a little wheat and corn that is actually bought 
 here, is there? I mean bought by the people, the traders here. 
 
 A. Allow me to explain. There are two classes of commission-mer- 
 chants in Chicago, one known as receivers, who receive grain from 
 the country. They are the parties who are the sellers here. There is 
 another class called shippers, who buy for eastern or foreign account. 
 The receivers sell the property to the shippers. The shippers either 
 buy it for their own account or on orders from the Bast. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Your receivers are in the nature of commission-merchants ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; they are both in the nature of coinmission-inerchants. 
 But it is very seldom you find the same commission-merchant who 
 works as receiver and shipper. The two kinds of business do not 
 go well together, for you cannot very well do justice to both parties. If 
 you stand between the buyer and seller, it puts you sometimes in an 
 awkward position. The receiver, in order to get the best price possible, 
 wants to go into the market and sell to the highest bidder, and the 
 buyer wants to come in and buy as cheaply as possible. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Is it either of these classes of persons who operate for a rise 
 and fall on what you call the Board of Trade? There are certain 
 speculations in wheat, in which it is forced up or down ; is it either of 
 these parties, the receivers or shippers, who engage in that business, or 
 is it an outside organization still ? 
 
 A. Those transactions, are made on 'Change by both these classes 
 of commission-merchants. The Board of Trade here is a medium 
 for speculators throughout the country to operate in grain. It 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 295 
 
 occupies very much, the same position as the Stock Exchange does in 
 New York, so far as that is concerned. 
 
 Take our own house, for instance. We have a great many orders 
 from parties in the country, and from the Bast, to buy grain for future 
 delivery. Then we have other parties who think the prices are high at 
 present and will be lower in future. They order us to sell. And it is 
 to both receivers and shippers of grain who have orders of that kind. 
 
 Q. What effect do you think the speculation in grain has upon the 
 producer — whether to decrease or increase his product ? 
 
 A. The general effect, I think, is to increase the price of grain. There 
 are times when prices are depressed by these speculative transactions. 
 
 1 will tell you why I think prices are enhanced. Parties who sell for a 
 future are those who anticipate low prices. They afterward 
 become buyers, and have to come in competition with parties buying 
 for shipment, and there is double the demand for property that there 
 would be had not these parties made their sales. That applies more 
 particularly when the arrivals of grain are much less than was antici- 
 pated. Parties who have sold what we call " short," have to cover their 
 contracts, and they oftentimes have to pay more than the property is 
 worth for shipment. 
 
 Q. So that, on the whole, you think it is a benefit to the producer, 
 rather than an injury? 
 
 A. I do, sir. I think the last crop of corn in this market, of 1872, 
 was sold for from 3 to 5 cents a bushel more than if there had been no 
 speculation in the market here. Shippers of that property lost, I think, 
 on an average that much per bushel. 
 
 Q. Are you engaged in shipping ? 
 
 A. We are receiving; that is our principal business. 
 
 Q. You have no personal knowledge of the shipment by rail? 
 
 A. No practical knowledge. We are not engaged in the transporta- 
 tion business. Of course, we have to engage freights very frequently. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge from conversation with the owners of 
 vessels on the lakes as to the actual cost of shipment to Buffalo % 
 
 A. No positive knowledge — no, sir. 
 
 Q. Are the business men of Chicago looking to New York or to Mon- 
 treal as their market — as being the most profitable market for the fu- 
 ture? 
 
 A. Well, I think that they yet depend upon New York as the great 
 market ; but still we are glad to avail ourselves of any facilities that 
 Montreal can offer. We look for increased facilities in trade through 
 Canada. We are not pledged already to any one place. 
 
 By Mr. NORWOOD : 
 
 Q. What is the expense of handling a bushel of wheat here ? 
 
 Mr. Culver. By that do you mean the charges? 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Yes, I mean the necessary charges that fall upon the 
 producer. I will not say the "necessary" charges, either; I will say 
 customary charges. 
 
 A. The charge for selling grain in this market is 1 cent per bushel, 
 and if sold in fifteen days from arrival there is usually no storage — that 
 being paid by the buyer, the same as the freight from here to the East. 
 
 Q. Suppose it is sent here for shipment to eastern points, what 
 charges then fall ? 
 
 A. A party buying property here and shipping it East, pays the com- 
 missions, usually half a cent bushel to the oartv buying it ; the storage 
 
 2 cents a bushel. 
 
296 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By Mr. Conover : 
 Q. That is elevator charges ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir ; also cost of State inspection, 50 cents a thousand bush- 
 els ; and that is all. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. You stated a moment ago that if sold within fifteen days there 
 was no charge to the owner of the property ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. Supposing it remains longer than fifteen days — say thirty days; 
 tlien what charge is there on it ? 
 
 A. The party buying the property buys it with the understanding 
 that he pays 2 cents a bushel storage. If the grain has remained in 
 store long enough for extra storage to accumulate, that comes from the 
 party who holds the property. If you, a shipper in the country, sent 
 me 5,000 bushels of corn, but you held it thirty days, you pay all 
 the storage which accrues, less two cents, which the buyer assumes. 
 Property is also sold in this market that arrives by canal-boat and 
 delivered direct from that to a vessel. The handling charges are only 
 1 cent per bushel besides the commission. 
 
 Q. The commission is a cent for selling ? 
 
 A. A cent a bushel for selling. 
 
 Q. How much for buying 1 
 
 A. In cargo lots, usually half a cent per bushel. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. I understand you, then, that an owner of wheat, shipping itthrough 
 the Illinois Canal to Buffalo or New York, or any other eastern point, 
 has to pay 1 cent charges only in Chicago I 
 
 A. If it goes direct from the canal-boat to the vessel he has. If it 
 goes into the elevator and remains ten days he pays a cent and a half a 
 bushel. 
 
 Q. Is there any necessity for its going though the elevator ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; not if the vessel by which it is shipped is ready to take 
 the cargo on its arrival here. But oftentimes a cargo is put into the 
 elevator, and remains several days before the ship is ready to take it. 
 
 By Mr. Conover : 
 
 Q. I wanted to say that there is a statement made here that they 
 charge 2 cents for twenty days. 
 
 A. That is, grain arriving by railroad. 
 
 Q. For that arriving by boat they charge less ? 
 
 A. There is a smaller charge. 
 
 Q. They state that they charge the same price for that by rail as by 
 boat — any way, it might come to 2 cents, for twenty days, and the same 
 price whether it stayed there twenty days or twenty-four hours. 
 
 A. I would state in regard to the storage charges, that they are not 
 uniform. The law of this State requires the elevator proprietors to pub- 
 lish, on the first Monday in January, I think it is, their rates for the 
 following year, and those rates cannot be advanced. They can be re- 
 duced. This report, which I have, will give you the rates of storage, 
 and I will read them : 
 
 " On grain received from railroad cars, if in good condition when re- 
 ceived, 2 cents per bushel for the first twenty days, or part thereof." 
 
 That is the amount of storage that the buyer of property expects to 
 pay. By the terms on 'change that is the regular storage. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 297 
 
 " For each additional ten days, or part thereof, the grain pays half a 
 cent per bushel storage, extra. 
 
 " On grain received from canal-boats or vessels, if in good condition 
 when received, 1 J cents per bushel for the first ten days, or part thereof. 
 For each additional ten days, or part thereof, half a cent per bushel." 
 
 Winter rates of storage are less. From November 15th to April 15th, 
 the above rates are charged on sound grain until 4 cents per bushel has 
 accrued. After that, no extra storage is charged from the time named. 
 For grain that is out of condition, the elevators claim the right to charge 
 1 cent per bushel for every five days, or part thereof, to take effect five 
 days after perfect notice has-been given that such grain is out of condi- 
 tion. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. If we understand now, it costs 1 cent to receive, J cent to sell, 
 and 2 cents storage, usual elevator charges. 
 
 A. -Yes, sir, that is on property that remains in Chicago twenty days 
 or less that arrives by railroad and remains. I mentioned a few mo- 
 ments agothatif it remained in store fifteen days, it .could remain without 
 any storage charge. That difference between the fifteen and twenty 
 days comes from this fact, that the buyer of property is understood to 
 have five days — warehouse receipts can run five days — before there is 
 any accumulation of storage ; and therefore the man from the country 
 who ships it here can only have the privilege of allowing it to remain 
 fifteen days on his hands. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. In the items mentioned over by Mr. Davis there is no 
 storage ? 
 
 Mr. Davis. Two cents pays the storage up to twenty days, I under- 
 stand? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. In other words the expense is three cents and a half? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; a man in the country, though, shipping grain to Chicago 
 can allow it to remain in store here twenty days by paying but 2 cents 
 a bushel, unless he engages the services of some one to attend to his 
 business. You, living in Chicago, can buy grain in the Country and 
 pass it through Chicago, leaving it in store here twenty days, and it 
 costs you but 2 cents a bushel. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you can proceed to ship it yourself? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; other charges are for services rendered or commission 
 charges. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. How is it on grain received by^ water ? 
 
 A. One and a half cents per bushel for the first ten days or part 
 thereof. The other is 2 cents for twenty days, as I have said before. 
 The reason of that is this : that car-loads are small lots, while that 
 coming by canal are usually canal-boat loads of 5,000 or 6,000 bushels. 
 
 Q. It is more trouble to transfer, in other words ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 The committee here adjourned to meet at the Fifth Avenue Hotel, in 
 New York City, October 16, 1873, at 10 a. m. 
 
298 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 New Yoke, October 16, 1873. 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment. 
 Present : The chairman and Messrs. Norwood, Oonkling, and Davis. 
 
 Carlos Cobb, of the New York Produce Exclfange, examined. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee requested your presence for the par- 
 pose of ascertaining more definitely the mode of doing business, or the 
 mode of receiving freight from canal-boats and cars, &c; and if you can 
 give a statement upon that subject, or any connected with the terminal 
 facilities, and the management of freight received here, we would be 
 obliged. 
 
 Mr. Cobb. My attention was more particularly called to the transfer 
 of grain by rail, &c, and I will give you a few facts with reference to 
 that. 
 
 Before stating them I would like to correct one or two statements 
 which I have met through the public prints, and in no other way. I 
 did not hear them made. They were made on the part of some of the 
 agents of the fast freight-lines who have appeared before your commit- 
 tee. I think a statement made on behalf of one of them was that one 
 great difficulty here was the deficiency of elevators and storage room. 
 Am I correct in such a statement? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Cobb. If he refers simply to storage-room, he is mistaken. If he 
 refers to transfer-elevators, he is mistaken. If he refers to facilities at 
 the termini of their several lines, he is correct. 
 
 The grain-storage capacity of New York is about 13,000.000 bushels. 
 The largest quantity ever held in store at one time was something less 
 than this capacity. Usually not more than half this capacity is filled. 
 Nor is it true that the rates for such storage, compared with western 
 places, are excessive. Storage at New York on wheat and corn is 1{ 
 cents per bushel first ten days, and 1J cents each ten days following, 
 equal to 2J cents first month. For sixty days, would be 3 cents per 
 bushel, on which, at delivery, the grain is credited § cent for weighing ; 
 net, 2$ cents per bushel, sixty days' storage. At Chicago and Milwau- 
 kee the charge is 2 cents for first twenty days or any part of it, and { 
 cent each ten days thereafter, which for sixty days is 4 cents per bushel, 
 and without any drawback. In New York there are § drawback. 
 
 Owing to moisture of the atmosphere at New York, grain is stored 
 upon floors, and spread, involving a large amount of labor and room; 
 while at western and drier climates deep bins are safely used, and 
 the work almost entirely performed by cheaper steam ; this, to say 
 nothing of the large difference in cost of ground and building, makes the 
 disparity still wider. 
 
 Commissions are not higher at New York than at western places for 
 similar services. The completion of the transportation undertaking on the 
 part of the railroads is by lighters from Thirty- third street, New York, or 
 from Jersey City, Hoboken, or Communipaw, to some usual place in New 
 York, such as Chambers street, Coenties Slip, &c, and then becomes 
 subject to the order of consignee. If grain,. it is delivered, lighterage 
 free, alongside buyer's ship, store, or pier. Prompt delivery according 
 to quantity contained is required, or demurrage charged for default. 
 This.lighter delivery from termini of the roads to consignee's vessel, 
 store, or dock has usually been farmed out to middle-men or parties 
 having neither interest in the roads nor in sale of the property. The 
 roads contract to pay them a certain sum per ton, piece, Or bushel, with 
 permission probably to make such incidental profits out of the business 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 299 
 
 as they may be able, such as grain-sweepings, remnants, unclaimed goods, 
 demurrages, &c, and upon grain a recent invention has been put into 
 practice, viz, charging | cent per bushel for what is called elevation, 
 which is simply the act of discharging their lighters. Should the 
 Cunard steamers require A. T. Stewart & Co. to enter the holds of their 
 vessels and search out and remove their merchandise as come to, or the 
 equivalent, by pa^jpg the Cunard people for doing such work, it would 
 be the exact equivalent for this charge of % cent a bushel for unloading 
 their lighter ; i. e., the grain pays for being transported according to 
 tariff rate, and, in addition, is then called upon to pay an uncontem- 
 plated charge of | cent per bushel for unloading the carriers' cars or 
 vessels, while, the world over, common carriers load and unload their 
 own vessels. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. That charge is not paid by the railroads 
 
 ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. It is made with these middle-men, to whom the railroads 
 farm out its delivery. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Is that the through lines ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir, all of them. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Are the middle-men. usually the men who control the 
 through lines'? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. No, sir. I cannot tell what interest they may have other- 
 wise, but it does not appear that they have auy interest in these lines. 
 Their interests are interposed between the lines and the customers of 
 the lines. 
 
 Mr. Davis. It does not reach the consignee until it goes through the 
 hands of these middle-men ! 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. For instance, for many years O. H. P. Archer 
 had the lighterage for the Erie Railway, and handled all their property, 
 taking it over at Pavonia Perry, and deliving it on this side either at 
 Chambers street, Pier 9, or alongside of ship ; and at present Mr. Star- 
 ing has the same business for the New York Central. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do the railroads themselves keep it under their control 
 until it is placed in the lighter and delivered 1 ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. And there is no additional charge 1 
 
 Mr. Cobb. They pay these men the same per ton or piece for this 
 service of receiving it from their cars, and bringing it down or across 
 t~> the ordinary places for receiving this sort of property. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do you know what they pay ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. I do not know positively. I presume that these contracts 
 have been somewhat varied at various times. I think the lowest that 
 has ever been done, or reputed to have been done, was 60 cents a ton 
 on all their stuff, which amounts on a bushel of wheat to about a cent 
 and six mills. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Are they what you term the middle-men 1 
 
 Mr. Cobb. They are the middle-men. They have no interest in the 
 carrying business or in the sale of the stuff. Their sole pursuit is to re- 
 ceive it from the cars at Jersey City, Thirty-third street, or Manhattan- 
 ville, wherever they may for the time being meet these lighters, and to 
 bring it down to the usual place for disposing of this property. There 
 are usual places where this property is brought. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Those middle-men are appointed by the railroads 1 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Contracted with by the railroads. Mr. Staring has this 
 business for the New York Central, and it has been esteemed a very 
 thrifty business on the part of all of them. At all events those men 
 have, made fortunes. 
 
300 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Who mates the charge upon -wheat — the railroad, or 
 these middle-men ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. The middle-men. When the grain is discharged, in comes 
 a certified bill from Mr. Staring— or Mr. Archer, when he was doing this 
 business— as to the correctness of the elevation bill, % of a cent per 
 bushel ; and as to the correctness, too, of another bill of the same 
 amount, f of a cent per bushel for weighing ; and jhe consignee pays 
 that charge. 
 
 The Chairman. A cent and a half, then, for the two ! 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir ; the consignee pays that charge. Consequently 
 the grain pays it. 
 
 The Chairman. Starting from one of these points— Thirty-third 
 street, for instance — before you reach either of those charges named 
 there is a charge for putting it on to the lighter and carrying it. Who 
 pays that ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. No ; that is the contract — the undertaking. 
 
 The Chairman. The railroads pay that"? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. That is included, then, in their charge for freight? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. We know nothing of their arrangement in re- 
 gard to that. 
 
 The Chairman. But this cent and a half is in addition to their pub- 
 lished charges for freight, or their actual freight charges 9 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. That is collected, as I understand, by the railroad? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. No, sir; by the middle-men, or lightermeir, as we term 
 them. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Out of the consignee ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir ; and consequently out of the grain. I will go on 
 a step further, so that you will see the whole process. Weighing is done 
 in the process of elevation, and a part of the act, since it consists simply 
 of passing the grain through a hopper in given quantities, tallying these 
 draughts, and running it from such hoppers to buyer's vessel or store. 
 This completes the process of delivery. The addditional charge for 
 such weighing is f cent per bushel. This is divided between the grain 
 and its buyer, § cents to each. By this ascertainment of quantity the 
 lighter and the elevator makes their charges. In canal transportation 
 the boats unload themselves, and consequently while the elevators 
 get £ cent for elevation and weighing, the boatman pays it; it is 
 unloading his boat. Instead of doing it by the old process, em- 
 ploying trimmers and shovelers to take it out by band, it is done now 
 by steam, at a little greater expense, but that is paid by the boat. But 
 in the railroad business the old rule is reversed entirely, and it is made 
 a tax upon grain. These elevators' have usually no storage capacity 
 whatever, but are floated to any dock or ship, and simply used to lift 
 the grain from the lighter to the ship, and ascertain the quantity, by 
 which buyer and seller settle very much the largest proportion of all 
 the wheat and corn received at New York, and, perhaps, as great a pro- 
 portion of oats, rye, and barley is handled in this way. Very little prop- 
 erly goes to the stationary elevators, but such as is designed for holding 
 in store for improvement in market. These middle-men are supposed 
 to have made this business, interposed as it is between the railroads 
 and their patrons, very profitable indeed. I believe that covers the 
 whole, unless my associate, whom I would like to introduce to the com- 
 mittee, may thiuk of something further. He is largely engaged in this 
 business. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 301 
 
 Mr. Davis. I do not know that I fully understood the difference be- 
 tween the cost of rail and water when each arrived at New York. 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Anything arriving at New Tork by canal, the boat dis- 
 charges itself. Consequently the only charge then against the grain is 
 for the weighing, which is | cent, of which the buyer pays half and 
 the grain half. This unloading is entirely done by canal at the cost of 
 the boat. When it is received by rail, as I have said before, it is put 
 into lighters. That is a part of the transportation. 
 
 But another invention has been adopted In the last few years, name- 
 ly, -taxing this grain in lighters $ cent for elevation or unloading. 
 Instead of unloading it at their own cost, the cost is taxed against the 
 grain, and the additional charge to that of f cent for the weighing. 
 
 Mr. Davis. There, is then f cent difference in favor of water? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Tes, sir, in that respect. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Does that put the grain either in an elevator, in vessel, or 
 in store ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. The storage is another department. This is all done, as I 
 have remarked, by floating elevators that have no storage capacity, 
 merely lifting machines to take grain from the lighter, weigh it, and 
 spout it then into a ship, or a dock, or to another lighter, or anything as 
 it may be required. They have no storage capacity whatever. Any- 
 thing that is to be held in store takes another direction. 
 
 The Chairman. Then state how that is done afterward ; what is the 
 process after that when it goes to an elevator. 
 
 Mr. Cobb. When it goes to store there it is discharged by the store 
 elevator, and, of course, taken iuto store subject to the charges I have 
 given. 
 
 The Chairman. Are those store-housesnsually on the river ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. They are mostly on the Brooklyn shore, Atlantic basin. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the cent and a half for weighing and discharg- 
 ing places it near the elevator, so that the next charge is the elevating 
 it, aud there is no charge for transporting from these lighters to the 
 store-houses ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Oh, no sir; the lighterage is free. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What did you state the elevator's charge was a bushel? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Three quarters of a cent per bushel. 
 
 Mr. Davis. For what length of time ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. There is no time. 
 
 Mr. Davis. How long will they let it remain in the elevator ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. What I am speaking of here are floating transfer elevat- 
 ors. I suppose your inquiry is directed- to the storage — the elevators as 
 a mechanism of a store. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Our terms are 1J cents on corn and wheat for the 
 first ten days, comprising this weighing. That is different from the 
 railroad business. The charge is also J cent each ten days fol- 
 lowing that. The rates are the same through the whole season. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What is your system of inspecting 1 Have you one? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. We have no inspection. 
 
 The Chairman. When it goes into storage you avoid this f cent 
 weighing? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. So sir ; it is collected still by the lighter for discharging 
 their boats. 
 
 The Chairman. Then that is only f cent for the storage for the ten 
 days 1 
 
302 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Cobb. But the lighter collects the £ cent for discharging the 
 boat, which in a canal boat would be paid by the boat. 
 
 The Chairman. And | cent for weighing? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir.' •>. 
 
 The Chairman. Now you have reached the boats of the elevator l f 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, if it is taken up there for ten days, \\ cents is 
 charged. Is there \ cents paid or three-fourths deducted ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. The charge is precisely the same. 
 
 The Chairman. So that if it goes through the lighter to the ware- 
 house and is deposited there, there is 3 cents charges. 
 
 Mr. Cobb. No, sir. 
 
 C. E. Hickok. The Chairman misapprehends. The lighter does not 
 pay the weighing. The % cent is paid'iby the lighter for elevat- 
 ing the grain from the canal-boat into the warehouse. It is col- 
 lected of the grain. Then the charge for the first ten days' storageis 
 1£ cents a bushel. That includes % cent for weighing, paid by the 
 grain to the warehouse. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the discharging and the ten days' storing 
 amount to 2J cents ? 
 
 Mr. Hickok. Yes, sir; but that does not include the whole lighterage. 
 The rest of the lighterage is paid by the railroads. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What is the total charge to receive grain from canal or 
 railroad, and stow it into an elevator and keep it there ten days ; all the 
 charges ? 
 
 Mr. Hickok. That is 2J cents from the railroad, or 1£ cents from the 
 canal-boat. In one case the canal-boat pays the elevation, and, of 
 course, that is put onto the freight of the canal-boat. 
 
 The Chairman. But in adding the terminal charges to the rail or the 
 water, you add £ cent to the rail % 
 
 , Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. In other words, the grain has to pay for its own 
 unloading to the common carrier of the grain by rail, which makes a 
 very high rate of lighterage, especially as no quantity is guaranteed 
 whatever, and no responsibility for quantity. 
 
 I will mention two or three evils which we would like to see remedied. 
 Shortage, which varies from £ to 10 per cent.; 1 to 3 per cent, not un- 
 common without ability to locate it, yet the natural shortage should not 
 equal 1 per cent. Thefts along the line and from railroad lighters have 
 not been of unfrequent occurrence. As bills of lading are usually given 
 " quantity unknown," there is less responsibility and doubtless less care 
 on the part of men in charge than if the road had become liable for 
 quantity. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. As to shortage, suppose 1,000 bushels of wheat leaves 
 Chicago for New York, do you mean to say that when it gets here there 
 are only 900 bushels on the average? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. I mean to say this, that a shortage of 10 per cent, has oc- 
 curred, without any ability to trace it, in several instances ; but 1 to 3 
 per cent, is not uncommon. Is that your experience. Mr. Hickok? 
 
 Mr. Hickok. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Cobb. The natural shortage we are convinced is less than 1 per 
 cent. It came through at £ per cent. That arises from cars probably 
 not swept out entirely clean, &c. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Who loses that ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. The shipper from the western point, without recourse, un- 
 less you can prove that the cars have been wrecked, or unless you can 
 prove the very difficult thing that thefts have been sustained while in 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 303 
 
 the hands of the road. It is a loss absolutely to the owner of the grain 
 without redress. 
 
 The Chairman. How do they provide for that margin at those west- 
 ern points? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. They require a wider in the New York market. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, they pay so much less for it, calculating on 
 the shortage ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. O, no ; there is no railroad provision for it. 
 
 The Chairman. But I mean, the owner at Chicago in buying grain 
 there will pay so much less for it, on account of this shortage that has 
 to suffer here. 
 
 Mr. Cobb. That would be a philosophical deduction of course. If he 
 expects so much loss in transit, and so much expense, commissions, 
 lighterage, and elevations, and all that, of course it comes into the esti- 
 mate. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Is that the same by water 1 
 
 Mr. Cobb. No, sir ; the quantity is fdled. 
 
 Mr. Davis. They guarantee it. 
 
 Mr. Cobb. It is simply a plain bill of lading, where they are required 
 to fill the quantity. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What would you suggest for the remedy ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. The suggestion I make for a remedy would be that the 
 railroad should guarantee quantities. Then it would become their in- 
 terest to look out that those cars are not broken into, and it would be 
 much more satisfactory to the West to pay a higher rate of transporta- 
 tion, as well as for the eastern man, when he is advancing his money to 
 the western man on this property, if he knew a quantity certain that he 
 was to reneive. 
 
 Mr. Davis. That would require the railroads, would it not, to send an 
 agent to each warehouse and see the grain weighed in ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Warehouses are in charge, in most places, now, of railroad 
 men in all these lines. 
 
 Mr. Davis. I understand if you are in Chicago, or any other town, 
 and you order one or ten cars, they send it to your elevator and you 
 load it yourself 1 
 
 Mr. Cobb. There the elevators are private property ; that is, so far as 
 this : that they may be run by individuals ; but all the freight brought 
 by certain railroads formerly was, and I think to a great extent is still, 
 delivered to certain elevators. It was a kind of arrangement between 
 the road and parties running the elevator. Is not that the arrangement 
 still, Mr. Hickok 'I 
 
 Mr. Hickok. I think it is. 
 
 Mr. Cobb. These cars run over each other's road to almost any extent. 
 That would be one remedy. Perhaps it would be a little impractical to 
 locate scales, &c, at all the small places where grain is picked up, and 
 to meet that difficulty I have suggested another idea, which I will give 
 directly. 
 
 Another complaint is overcharges, and they are of so frequent occur- 
 rence, either in rate of freight or quantity, that some have supposed it 
 the result of system, the result of which is, very considerable sums of 
 money are accumulated by the roads and remain without interest weeks, 
 and sometimes months, before adjustment of claims are made; and small 
 amounts of such overcharge are not claimed at all and lapse to the 
 roads. 
 
 The Chairman. What do you mean by overcharges in that sense ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. We recieve a bill of lading, 24,000 pounds, from Iowa to 
 
304 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 New York, at 60 cents a hundred-weight Nothing j is more common 
 than to find the weight raised 3,000 or 4,000 pounds somet ™, and the 
 rate raised 5 or 10 ctnts a hundred, and it must always to p aid down, 
 paid in advance, from the fact that the delivery-department .and the 
 freight and money department of these roads are all distinct inshtu. 
 tions. It is too much to have the delivery-department canvas bills of 
 lading, and he is compelled to receive the sum demanded, even if he 
 knows it is wrong; that is* if it is met by a bdl of lading stating 
 another rate of freight, he must receive the money. And the repayment, 
 the liquidation of this thing, the examination of the original bill of 
 lading and the rate that we have paid, comes before another department, 
 and it is sometimes six months before it is ever reached. I should judge 
 by my own experience — and there are parties doing a good deal more 
 business in railroads than I do — that the railroads must have a good 
 many thousands of dollars constantly in their hands without interest, 
 and small sums for parties who are not regular receivers, and I do not 
 suppose make any claims at all. The sum must be very large. 
 
 The Chairman. What excuse do they make where a certain cargo of 
 wheat, for instance, is shipped from Iowa at 60 cents, for charging 65 
 cents 1 
 
 Mr. Cobb. There are no excuses made. The charges are imposed. 
 
 ■ Mr. Conklino. How come these changes in rates and weights? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. I cannot tell where they are imposed; perhaps here; per- 
 haps in some station along the line ; perhaps up at Athens or Buffalo; 
 I cannot say where it is done. We only know that when the freight-bill 
 comes to us with the demand for payment, that the rate may be 70 in- 
 stead of 60 and the rate raised, but we must pay according to that bill 
 as demanded. It may be raised from 20,000 to 25,000. Cars are sup- 
 posed to hold from 20,000 to : 25,000 pounds. All we have to do is to 
 pay the freight-bill as made out. All the delivery-department has to 
 do is to collect when it delivers, and that is in advance of the delivery, 
 the freight-bill that is sent on to them. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Does that apply to the individual lines; through lines? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. It applies to all of them, without any exception. 
 
 Mr. Jones. In other words, parties receiving the freight have to go 
 to the freight-depot with their bill receipted before they can obtain their 
 property I 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Not quite so. The freight-bills are distributed generally 
 around to the offices, and one day, or perhaps the next day, a check is 
 demanded ; or three or four days may elapse, the aggregate becoming 
 $6,000 or $7,000. And it is useless to ask the delivery-department to 
 examine and compare their freight-bills with the bill of lading which 
 you have received. 
 
 The Chairman. The rule is to pay, and then seek the pay-department 
 for redress ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Tes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. I do not know that I understand yet the difference be- 
 tween the through line — that is, the individual line, the Union, the 
 Globe, and other bines — and the road proper. Now, if your grain comes 
 by one of those lines, do you go to the railroad to pay your freight or do 
 you go to that office ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. They collect at our offices. 
 
 Mr. Davis. They collect themselves? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. You go to them, then, for anything that is wrong? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. No, sir; we make up the original bill, and then make up a 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 305 
 
 claim stating the difference as it should be, and it is sent directly to the 
 
 head offices of these lines, or the road itself. The fact is, we do not 
 
 know much about the roads any more. It is all done by fast-freight 
 
 lines pretty much. 
 
 , Mr. Davis. Tou spoke of shortage ; sometimes it is large ? 
 
 t» Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do they require yon to pay the freight on it if you show 
 that you are short? Do you have to pay the freight on what is started 
 or what you receive 1 ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. 1 will meet that in a moment by the statement of how that 
 is done. It varies a little. The Erie Road have a track- scale over here 
 at Jersey City. It is an institution that has been created within a few 
 years for the purpose of locating, as far as possible, where shortages 
 occur. They settle their freight and liquidate claims by the track-scale 
 weight at 'Jersey City ; but while the lighter is a part of their line of 
 transportation to deliver it to New York, as they have billed their stuff, 
 or to buyer's vessel or dock, they will not pay you for any deficiency 
 between the track-scale and the delivery of their lighter at all. If their 
 lighter should turn out a thousand bushels short, or no matter what 
 shortage it may turn out short of that track-scale, they will still collect 
 freight on the track-scale weight at Jersey City. 
 
 The Chairman. Can there be a difference between them? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Sometimes very great. 
 
 The Chairman. How can there be an honest difference? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. That is the question. We have sometimes found thefts 
 going on. They do not hold themselves responsible for anything unless 
 you can bring it home to them, which is a very difficult thing. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do they weigh their entire car on the track-scalel 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. And subtract a dead-weight? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Now, in dry weather, or bad weather, or snow on the car, 
 there must be a great difference in the weight of the car? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. We have no great fault to find with this, have we, Mr. 
 Hickok? 
 
 Mr. Hickok. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Cobb. They are under the charge of a careful man, recommended 
 by the exchange, and we think he makes very proper allowance for all 
 those facts. 
 
 Mr. Davis. You speak of the Erie Road. Are the other roads in the 
 same way? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. The Hudson Eiver now, I believe, are building a track- 
 scale, but have not had one heretofore. None of the other lines, I 
 think, though, had track-scales excepting the Erie Road. Still they nave 
 a scale somewhere, where they weigh, I believe. The Central Road. I 
 I believe, has a scale at Buffalo that they sometimes weigh upon, but 
 more frequently freight seems to have been levied without much regard 
 to any certainty of weight but an estimated weight. Mr. Hickok, have 
 the Baltimore and Ohio or Pennsylvania Central any track-scale? 
 
 Mr. Hickok. They have a scale at some point in the interior. I think 
 Deny, Peun., and thay profess to weigh all their cars there. 
 
 Mr. Cobb. That would be quite unsatisfactory, from the tact that 
 there is a long railroad transportation from that point here, and wast- 
 age, &c. But the complaint we make against the roads, and we think 
 with a good deal of justice, is that they should at least settle freight, by 
 the quantity delivered from the lighter, as the lighter is a part of their 
 20XS 
 
306 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 transportation. In one case, where the deficiency was very glaring, and 
 the lighter sustained some damage by wet, they did settle with the de- 
 livery-store on lighter ; but usually they have said that the track-scale 
 must go. Consequently there may be a difference, and a very consider- 
 able difference, between the delivery by lighter and the track-scale 
 weight on which they collect their freight and settle for overcharges or 
 excessive weight. 
 
 1 have a suggestion which I may hope to see that some of the roads 
 at least are beginning to appreciate the importance of, in regard to in- 
 creasing the facilities of the roads, and, as I began to remark before, I 
 think it would not be practicable for the roads to guarantee the quan- 
 tity, from the difficulty of ascertaining weights at the small interior 
 stations, from the expense of locating scales, but it would obviate it to 
 a great extent if something like this were done: We think each grain- 
 carrying road should erect at their termini here elevators of such capac- 
 ity as would contain the deliveries of such roads for, say, one week. 
 Large lots should be kept identical; small lots, under charge of an in- 
 spector, should be bulked. All grain should be handled by such elevat- 
 ors and held free, subject to order of consignee, for a reasonable time; 
 after which, should be subject to a reasonable charge. It is supposed 
 that such elevator, storage, and delivery, as a part of their carrying 
 system, but not as a means or pretense for levying new exactions upon 
 this traffic, would be economy, through giving quick dispatch to rolling- 
 stock, and determining the proper quantity on which to charge freight; 
 and lighterage to vessels, where necessary, would be much less on 
 aggregate than on small parcels preserying identity, as now done; and 
 not unfrequently ships would take their entire load from such stores, 
 thus saving lighterage altogether. 
 
 The Pennsylvania Central, I understand, have already come to the 
 conclusion that such an elevator is a necessity for their road, not as a 
 new exaction upon traffic, but as a convenience for dispatching the cars 
 of the road. 1 have had stuff — I presume I have it now — but I have 
 bad stuff that has lain four weeks and it was impossible either to get 
 at them or that they should bring the cars up to their lighters; mean- 
 while the market may suffer very severe fluctuations, and some delays 
 are almost inevitable. The Erie Road is, we think, the best of all, i'rom 
 the fact that they have a very large dock capacity, can load several 
 lighters at once, and have generally given very good dispatch. But we 
 think any of them would promote their interest very much by having 
 an elevator, and at once on the receipt of a train of cars, commence un- 
 loading. 
 
 The Produce Exchange would provide a proper inspection that they 
 would be satisfied with for bulking small lots of one, two, three, four, 
 or five cars, while the large lots of 20,000 or 30,000 bushels, which are 
 often bought under contract, would be kept entire, and no great injust- 
 ice would be done compared to the great convenience that would ensue 
 from it by bulking small parcels as they do at Chicago and Milwaukee. 
 At present the identity of all grain is preserved ob supposed to be. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the total cost from railroad to ocean vessel, 
 where the cargo is sent to the shipper's vessel and does not go through 
 your elevators at all ? • 
 
 Mr. Cobb. It goes through the floatiug elevators necessarily. 
 
 The Chairman. Then what is the total charge ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. A cent and a half, precisely as it is any other way. That 
 is by railroad. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 30'i 
 
 Mr. Norwood. What you call elevating in that instance is lighter- 
 ing ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. No, sir; elevating is the act of unloading the lighter by 
 a mechanism contrived for it. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Putting it into the ship f 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Dropping a machine into the hold of the ship with buck- 
 ets, and setting it in motion and lifting it up and dumping into a hopper 
 and weighing, and thence on. They are independent boats of them- 
 selves. They have no storage. They carry nothing but simply their 
 own machinery and engines for doing this lifting work. The lighter is 
 a common canal-boat or barge, or anything of the kind that can safely 
 receive and carry property. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. I understand you to say that in transferring either 
 from a canal-boat or from a railroad-car to an ocean-vessel, the charge 
 is 2 : l cents, but in the one case the canal-boat pays f cent ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir ; that is her own unloading. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any difference in the value of the wheat 
 brought here by canals and railroads'? Is the condition such as to make 
 any difference in the value? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. There are times when, for instance, during the heating 
 season of corn, perhaps rail corn comes here in slightly better condition 
 than it would by canal, from the fact that it has received more recent 
 ventilation, but the period is a very short one. 
 
 The Chairman. You do not regard that as an important item ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. We do; rather important for the time being, but the period 
 is short. 
 
 Mr. Dayis. What is that time 1 
 
 Mr. Cobb. During the germinating season of corn, when the corn ib 
 still soft to some extent. 
 
 The Chairman. What season is that? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. May and June ; early in the fall, too, if the new crop is 
 forced out before it is cured. It may come in tolerable condition by 
 rail when it would not come in any suitable condition to be merchant- 
 able by any other method. 
 
 The Chairman. Both starting from Chicago, for instance, in good 
 condition, it would probably arrive in about as good condition here 
 coming by rail or water, if the condition was good when it started ? 
 
 Mr, Cobb. Yes,, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any difference in weight ? 
 
 Mr. Cobb. No, sir ; I should not say there was, because it is generally 
 cured and dried before it is marketed. 
 
 C. E. Hickok. Mr. Chairman, most of the points have been gone over 
 by Mr. Cobb, and perhaps it is not worth while to take up the time of 
 the committee in rehearsing them, I will, however, submit a few re- 
 marks. 
 
 There is an utter lack of facilities on the part of the railroads bring- 
 ing grain to this port for handling it with economy and dispatch. By 
 the present plan the cars are run upon a dock or pier, and a canal-boat 
 or lighter brought alongside, into which the grain is shoveled from the 
 cars. Much of it is shipped in small lots of from one to five cars each, 
 and as each shipment must be kept separate in order to ascertain the 
 quantity, it frequently happens that six or eight single cars of grain, 
 belonging to different parties, are put into one boat. These may be 
 required to be delivered at as many different places, involving the use 
 of the boat for several days, and the expense of towing in each case. 
 The cost of lightering a single car of grain is about 3 cents per 
 
308 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEAPOARD. 
 
 bushel, while the usual charge for a boat load is 1£ cents per bushel. 
 If a shipment of five or more cars is made from some western point 
 in one lot, the cars generally become separated on the way and arrive 
 at different times ; it then is necessary to either lighter them sep- 
 arate or let the cars remain unloaded on the track until the lot is 
 complete, and this frequently requires from five to fifteen days. To 
 remedy this matter, elevators should be built at the terminal points of 
 the railroads on the water, with storage capacity in proportion to the 
 business of the road. Each car of grain should be inspected, graded, 
 and weighed on arrival, and a receipt given to the consignee for the 
 quantity and grade. This refers more particularly to the small lots, of 
 which the larger proportion of the business is made up. These receipts 
 would be bought and sold on the market in the same manner as at the 
 western cities. The advantage of this plan to the railroad companies 
 ■would be, first, in avoiding delay in unloading the cars; and, second, 
 the cost of lighterage, which is now paid by the railroads and included 
 in the freight, would be largely reduced. In many cases lighterage 
 could be dispensed with entirely, as vessels could load directly from the 
 elevators. The expense of building these elevators and running them 
 should be placed where it properly belongs, on the railroad companies, 
 and for this outlay they would be amply compensated by the increase it 
 would add to their capacity for doing the business and the greater 
 economy with which it could be done. 
 
 There is no lack of storage-room for grain in the port of New York, 
 but the warehouses now in use are not accessible to the railroads and 
 cannot be reached by them. The manner of handling grain in use 
 here would not be tolerated for a moment in any western city, and New 
 "York is the only eastern city where grain is exported that is not already 
 provided with elevators. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Did 1 understand you to say that the usual time to put 
 grain from a car to a vessel, if it was going to be shipped to a foreign 
 market, was from five to fifteen days ? 
 
 Mr. Hickok. No, sir; there is often that much delay in accumulating 
 a lot of grain. For instance, a party in Iowa ships ten cars of wheat 
 here; perhaps two cars may arrive, the lot all starting together, but 
 getting broken up on the way. To-morrow there would be another one. 
 The next day some more, and it may be ten days before the whole ship- 
 ment of ten cars is here. Now, these cars that arrive first have either 
 got to be lightered separately, at an increased cost, or the grain must 
 remain in the cars until the whole shipment arrives. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What is the average time from the arrival of a car of 
 grain here until it gets to its destination, let that be in warehouse or in 
 a vessel ? I mean talcing a single lot that arrives to-day. 
 
 Mr. Hickok; It could be transferred from a car to a boat and from a 
 boat into a ship all in one day; but these delays are incidental to the 
 manner of doing the business. The cars get scattered on the way, and 
 a single lot does not arrive here at once. 
 
 Mr. Davis. I understand that part of it. Do I understand you, then, 
 it is usually done the same day? 
 
 Mr. Hickok. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What do I understand you, then? 
 
 Mr. Hickok. It usually takes from two to three days to transfer a 
 lot. 
 
 Mr. Davis. How does that compare with the boats? 
 
 Mr. Hickok. it is a longer time than is required by the boats. A 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 309 
 
 canal-boat coming here with a load of grain can be sent to any vessel in 
 the harbor and be discharged the same or the next day. 
 
 The Chairman. They discharge, of course, direct from the canal- 
 boat to the ocean -vessel 1 ? 
 
 Mr. Hickok. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the objection to the inspection system that 
 is adopted in the western' cities'? 
 
 Mr. Hickok. I see no objection to it. 
 
 The Chairman. Why have they not adopted it here? 
 
 Mr. Hickok. Because the grain heretofore has largely come by canal- 
 boats which contain seven to eight thousand bushels. There is no 
 object in inspecting that grain, because so large a lot can as well be kept 
 separate as to be mixed with something else, and the shipper of grain 
 at the West would rather have his own grain kept separate for that 
 reason. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. It is only inspected, then, as I understand you, for the 
 purpose of mingling it? 
 
 Mr. Hiokok. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. That they may have the saine grade; the same qual- 
 ity 1 
 
 Mr. Hickok. xes, sir. 
 
 George O. Jones examined : 
 
 The Chairman. The committee would like to ask you some questions 
 in reference to certain statements in your pamphlet in regard to the 
 proportions of watered stock on some of these lines. I see you have 
 made a statement very minutely as, to the amount, but we would be 
 glad to have the sources of information upon which you make that 
 statement if you can give them to us now. For instance, you say "the 
 obligations outstanding against the New York Central and Hudson 
 River Company now amount to $105,000,000, or more than four times 
 the actual cost of its property, to it's stock and bondholders." Can you 
 state the sources from which you obtained that information? 
 
 Mr. Jones. The New York Central Railroad, as I stated in that 
 pamphlet, was organized out of a number of roads built mostly by the 
 people along their line reaching between these different cities located 
 between Albany and Buffalo. The roads entering into the consolida- 
 tion were the Albauy and Schenectady, with a capital of $1,000,000, 
 with a capital stock claimed to have been paid in of $1,064,000, and 
 with a funded debt of $GS5,000 ; the Schenectady and Troy Road, with a 
 capital of $650,000 claimed to have been paid in, with a funded debt ot 
 690,000 ; tlie Utica and Schenectady Road, with a capital stock of $4,500,- 
 000, the capital stock claimed to have been paid in of - $1,124,000 ; no 
 funded debt; the Syracuse and Utica Road, with a capital of $2,400,000, 
 ;i mount claimed to have been paid in $2,400,000, funded debt $126,000; 
 the Rochester and Syracuse Road, with a capital of 85,549,000; capital 
 claimed to have been paid in $5,132,000, funded debt $700,000; the 
 Buffalo and Lockport Koad, with a capital of $600,000, capital claimed to 
 have been paid in $-!00,000 ; no funded debt; the Mohawk Valley Road, 
 with a capital of §2,000,000 ; not claimed that auy portion of that money 
 had been paid into the treasury; no funded debt; the Syracuse and 
 Utica direct. $600,000, with no claim that any portion of that had been 
 paid into the treasury ; the Buffalo and Rochester a capital of $1,825,000, 
 sum claimed to have been paid in $1,825,000, with a funded debt of 
 $184,000; the Rochester, Lockport and Niagara Falls, with a capital of 
 
310 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 $1,675,000, claimed to have been paid in $1,446,000, with a funded debt 
 of $711,000. By these figures it will be seen that the capital stock of 
 the different companies coming into the consolidation amounted to 
 $20,799,800. The amount claimed to have been paid in was $16,852,870; 
 the funded debt, $2,497,526.10. I did not add the fractions in an- 
 nouncing the capital and the funded debt, but the aggregate shows the 
 indebtedness or obligations of the companies af, the time of the consoli- 
 dation. 
 
 The Chairman. Before you leave that poiut, where did you get those 
 statements ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. These are taken from the reports of the companies of 
 their capital at the time of the consolidation, from the State engineers, 
 and the office of the secretary of state both.- 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do you recollect the year ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. This is for the year 1853, as I say, at the time of the con- 
 solidation. This represents the different companies which were consol- 
 idated into the New York Central Eailroad Company, reaching between 
 Albany and Buffalo only, before the consolidation of the New York Cen- 
 tral with the Hudson Biver, filed with the secretary of state July 7, 
 1853. 
 
 Now, that these sums are largely in excess of the amount actually 
 paid by the stock and bond holders, I will illustrate by instancing the 
 Utica and Schenectady, which is entered here with a capital of $4,500,000 
 at the time of the consolidation. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Do you mean that it was put into the consolidation 
 at that value ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. Yes, sir; that was the amount. Now, the facts in rela- 
 tion to that road are simply these: That up and until the time of the con- 
 solidation there never had been any stock issued ; there never had been 
 any bonds issued; that the capital stock originally was $2,000,000; 
 that the' amount paid by the stock and bond holders for building the 
 road — that is the grading, purchasing real estate, erection of the build- 
 ings, and the equipment of the road — was $1,500,000. 
 
 Mr. Nokwood. Pardon me right there. You say by the stockholders 
 and the bondholders. 
 
 Mr. Jones. By the stockholders, I should say. There never were any 
 bondholders. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. You have just stated before that no bonds have been • 
 issued. 
 
 Mr. Jones. Yes, sir ; $1,500,000 was all that was ever levied on and 
 paid by the stockholders for the construction and equipment of that 
 road until it was put in operation. From the hour it was put in opera- 
 tion it earned in excess of the amount that was required to pay its 
 operating expenses and keep up its ordinary repairs — and the limit to 
 which they were restricted at that time was 10 per cent, of the actual 
 money invested^, large excess beyond the requirements to meet and 
 pay these demands. This excess was used partially on the road in 
 making additional improvements and increasing its facilities, and was 
 charged up to construction with a view ultimately, if possible, of capi- 
 talizing it. At that time they were in great doubt as to their ability to 
 accomplish that result. 
 
 Mr. Davis. For the want of legislation 1 
 
 Mr. Jones. Yes, sir. They were then a separate company. It was 
 charged up and stood to construction account. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. What did you mean by "result?" You said there 
 was doubt about accomplishing that result. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 311 
 
 Mr. Jones. About the legislature consenting or allowing it to be 
 capitalized. Do I make myself understood ? 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Yes, sir ; perfectly. 
 
 Mr. Jones. They did, however, accumulate $500,000 in money outside 
 of these payments made for additional improvements, and which was 
 charged to construction account. 
 
 The Chairman. Was that in addition to dividends'? 
 
 Mr. Jones. In addition to the 10 per cent, dividend. That $500,000 
 was divided among their stockholders by giving them the additional 
 $500,000 stock, calling it paid-up stock, making the entire $2,000,000 of 
 capital to which the road was entitled under its charter. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Have you stated how long they were in acquiring 
 this amount of money ? That was up to 1853. How long had the road 
 been running? 
 
 Mr. Jones. The road had been running from 1845, had it not, Senator 
 Conkling? 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Earlier. 
 
 Mr. Jones. Eighteenjiundred and forty-three, I believe. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. About ten years. 
 
 Mr. Jones. Yes, sir; I have the details, but I have not got them at 
 hand, in relation to the earnings of these' roads and their capital, &c, 
 at various periods from the time they obtained their charters up to the 
 time of the consolidation. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. You say in those ten years they paid the running ex- 
 penses and construction account or the improvement account? 
 
 Mr. Jones. The ordinary improvement account. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. And 10 per cent, dividend? 
 
 Mr. Jojjes. Yes, sir ; on the million and a half. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. And accumulated $500,000! 
 
 Mr. Jones. Yes, sir; and more than that, because the sum of 
 $4,500,000 is represented by what is charged to construction account 
 out of the surplus earnings of the road. 
 
 The Chairman. That Utiea and Schenectady Eoad is seventy-eight 
 miles long, is it not 1 
 
 Mr. Jones. Yes, sir. 
 
 Now the committee will see that if that proportion of the New York 
 Central Eoad, about one-quarter of it, cost only one million and a half dol- 
 lars to its stockholders, and that was the best road that entered into the 
 consolidation, the best equipped — it was the heaviest, had the heaviest 
 grading and rock-cutting of any other portion of the road between 
 Albany and Buffalo, and undoubtedly cost more in proportion per mile 
 to build than any other of the different roads that entered into the eou- 
 dation — if that road cost only $1,500,000, it is fair to estimate that the 
 entire road never cost over $6,000,000. It is fair to estimate that their 
 proportion of stock, as entered into the consolidation, was as much in 
 excess of the amount actually paid by their stock or bond holders as 
 that of the (Jtica and Schenectady Eoad. 
 
 The Chairman. Does that cost, as you estimate it, include their roll- 
 ing-stock at that time "? 
 
 Mr. Jones. Everything. Erotn the timethat theroad was put in opera 
 tion, at a cost .of a million and a half of dollars, up until to-day, there 
 never has been a dollar levied on the stockholders of that company, 
 nor the stock and bond holders representing the New York Central Com- 
 pany, in excess of that amount, to represent the vast capital that that 
 road now represents. 
 
 The Chairman. Has not there been a levy made on any of them ? 
 
312 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Jones. There was on none of them. They have paid regular 
 dividends on the stock from the time of the consolidation, and interest 
 on their bonds from that day to this. 
 
 The Chairman. How have these vast improvements been made? 
 
 Mr. Jones. Out of the surplus earnings of the road, with the single 
 exception of the Athens branch, running between Schenectady and 
 Athens, which is said to have cost $2,000,000, and which was put into 
 the company at that price, and its stock issued to represent it. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Are their general improvements made from the earnings 
 of the road, or from an increased bonded debt"? 
 
 Mr. Jones. Prom the surplus earnings of the road ; that is, the earn- 
 ings beyond 
 
 Mr. I)AVis. I understand what surplus is. Now, has there been no 
 increase of their bonded debt for the vast improvements going on! 
 
 Mr. Jones. At that time there were consolidation certificates in addi- 
 tion to this stock. 
 
 To go back a moment now, however, to those figures. The capital 
 stock as represented by these roads at the time of the consolidation, 
 was §20,799,800. The amount claimed to have been paid in was 
 ■$16,852,870, and the funded debt $2,499,526. Now, it will be found on 
 examining these figures that the Mohawk Valley Eoad was put iu at 
 $2,000,000, and Senator Conkling and every intelligent man of middle 
 age in the State of New York knows that that did not represent one 
 dollar. There never had been a spade put in that road, and there never 
 has been yet. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it a paper road ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. A paper road. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. No such road in existence ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. There was a survey made, but there never was a spade 
 put into the road, and there has not been to this day. The Syracuse 
 and Utica direct was put in at $600,000. There never had been a spade 
 r>ut iu that road at that time. 
 
 The Chairman. That has since been built ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. The Syracuse and Utica direct, do you say t 
 
 Mr. Jones. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Conkling'. It has never been built. 
 
 Mr. Jones. No, no; I am mistaken. It never has been built. The 
 Schenectady and Troy Eoad, $650,000. No one can tell anything about 
 what its value was. It is known that it was bought for less than 
 $100,000 within two months before the consolidation. It was put iu 
 $650,000 stock and $90,000 bonds. So that I think these figures and 
 statements will bear out the assertion made in that pamphlet that the 
 entire cost of the road, with the entire cost of the Hudson River Eoad, 
 as claimed in 1853, when it was open over its lines, and when its stock 
 and bond holders were assessed to make payments 
 
 Mr. Sherman. You speak now of the Hudson River ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. Yes, sir; it did not exceed iu all $25,000,000. Tn other 
 words, that the New York Central and Hudson River Railroad, from the 
 city of New York to the city of Buffalo, with all its property, never 
 cost its stock and bond holders $25,000,000. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. You mean at that time? 
 
 Mr. Jones. At any time; for since that time the only levy that has 
 been made on the property-owners for improving this property was 
 made iu 1864, when the stock of the Hudson River Company was issued 
 to the extent of $2,000,000, and 50 per cent, was called up. The other 
 
: TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 313 
 
 50 per cent, was given to the stockholders to represent the deficiency 
 of dividends for the years gone by, for which they had received no divi- 
 dends. 
 
 Mr, Sherman. Has there not been a large amount of bonded indebted- 
 ness created since that time 1 
 
 Mr. Jones. At the time of the consolidation they established the 
 capital stock of these roads at $23,000,000. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Do you mean to include the Hudson River ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. No, sir ; the New York Central. I will include the other 
 in a moment. Capital paid in, $22,000,000 ; funded debt, $11,000,000. 
 Ton see how the funded debt has jumped from $2,000,000 to $11,000,000. 
 Entire cost of road $1^,000,000, and yet here is $23,000,000 of stock, 
 and 811,000,000 of bonds. Those bonds, or their consolidated certifi- 
 cates, were made a present to the different holders of stock and bonds 
 in these different towns, for which it was never pretended, then or since, 
 that one dollar was paid. 
 
 They issued $8,000,000 of consolidation certificates in addition to the 
 watered stock, which brought up the capital and bonded indebtedness 
 of the company to about $34,000,000.- 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Do you know what.was done with the money received 
 on these bonds ? Was not that used in improving the road ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. There was no money paid for them. They were given 
 away and paid for again out of the earnings of the road, and have all 
 been redeemed out of the earnings of the road since. There was noth- 
 ing paid for them, but yet the commerce and travel over the road was 
 taxed to pay a sufficient return to redeem them. 
 
 •Mr. Sherman. Do you know what they did with them ; they were 
 given away, you say ; they were not ostensibly given away at that time, 
 were they 'f 
 
 Mr. Jones. Yes, sir ; under a resolution of the board of directors 
 and the action of the road, they were given these $8,000,000 of certifi- 
 cates, for which there was no pretense whatever. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. I refer to the bonds. 
 
 Mr. Jones. I say the original bonds after making the articles of 
 agreement establishing the capital at $23,000,000, and in addition they 
 issued $8,000,000 consolidation certificates, which took the form of bonds 
 bearing 6 percent, interest, and divided this up among the stockholders 
 of the new company. It is notorious in the history of this State, and 
 wns the occasion of much remark at that time and has been ever since. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What was the alleged cause at that time; what excuse 
 was there to ask the legislature to allow them to issue? 
 
 Mr. Jones. There was no particular excuse offered for it at that 
 time. It was said tbat the property was worth that amount ; but there 
 was no satisfactory reason ever given to the people of the State. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Were they issued in the nature of stock 1 
 
 Mr. Jones. Stock certificates, bearing 6 per cent, interest. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. You spoke of them as bonds awhile ago ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. They are called a funded debt or bond. It entered into 
 the funded indebtedness of the road and increased it immediately from 
 inside of $3,000,000 to $11,000,000 and something. They were a present 
 to the stockholders of the road ; $8,000,000 of bonds were issued, as I 
 said before, and afterward paid out of the surplus earnings. 
 
 Mr. Davis. And retired ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. And retired. I believe there are none of them in exist- 
 ence now. 
 
 The Chairman. Then they are not included now in the $105,000,000? 
 
314 TRANSPORTATION ' TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Jones. No, sir; they have been paid. 
 
 Mr. Oonkling. O, yes ; they are included in the $105,000,000. 
 
 We go on, then, and in 1854 the capital was $23,000,000 as established, 
 and the funded debt $11,000,000. Cost of the road, $25,000,000 ; it 
 runs on $25,000,000, $28,000,000, $29,000,000, $30,000,000, $30,000,000, 
 $31,000,000, &c, until 18G7, when it reaches $36,000,000; the cost of the 
 road and the capital stock has grown "to $28,780,000. The Hudson 
 Eiver Eailroad Company was organized March 1, 1847, with a capital 
 in 1851 of $4,000,000, and capital claimed to have been paid in, $3,703,000; 
 the funded debt, $5,640,000. In 1853 its capital was still $4,000,000; 
 amount claimed to have been paid in, $3,727,000 ; funded debt, $7,000,000. 
 The road claimed to cost $7,780,000. Up until 1862 the entire cost of 
 the Hudson Eiver Eoad was $12,113,000 ; the funded debt $9,000,000, 
 and a capital of $3,000,000. 
 
 The Chairman. That is by the statement made by the roads them- 
 selves to the State auditor % 
 
 Mr. Jones. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. I take it, you take all these statements from the reports 
 made to the auditor of the State?. 
 
 Mr. Jones. Yes, sir ; these are all official reports. Since 1853, as I 
 stated, the stock and bondholders of the road never have been assessed 
 but $1,000,000, and consequently the cost of the road to the stock and 
 bond holders has not grown except to the extent of $1,000,000. 
 
 The Chairman. Was that assessed ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. Yes, sir, and stock issued to double the amount. 
 
 The Chairman. Has there not been some increase of the bonded in- 
 debtedness of that road ? 
 
 ■ Mr. Jones. The bonded indebtedness varied different years. There 
 was some issued one year and paid the next from their earnings. As 
 they increased they paid and diminished their bonded indebtedness and 
 their floating indebtedness. For instance, its bonded indebtedness was, 
 in 1853, S8,000,000; in 1859, $8,800,000, and in 1862 it was $9,132,000; 
 in 1864 it was reduced, and its capital was increased — its stock was in- 
 creased. 
 
 The Chairman. What was its bonded indebtedness at the time of the 
 consolidation of the Hudson Eiver in 1869 % 
 
 Mr. Jones. Four million three hundred and nine thousand dollars, 
 and the capital stock had grown to $16,020,000. 
 
 Mr. DAvrs. Did you state what it was put into the consolidation at? 
 
 Mr. Jones. I will, in a moment. The New York Central and Hudson 
 Eiver Eailroads were consolidated under chapter 917 of the laws of 1869, 
 with a capital stock of $45,000,000, which you see it had grown to. The 
 capital stock of the two companies had grown to, at that time, iu the 
 one instance, $16,020,000 in the case of the Hudson Eiver, and in the 
 case of the New York Central *o $28,780,000. At that time the com- 
 pany issued stock certificates, in addition to the capital, amounting to 
 $44,428,330. 
 
 The Chairman. Was that 80 per cent. 1 
 
 Mr. Jones. Yes, sir, over 80 per cent, of the stock ; that is, 80 per 
 cent, of the funded sEock and funded indebtedness, which was $13,031,000. 
 It gives 80 per cent, on the entire capital. That brings the total obliga- 
 tions outstanding against the road up to $103,110,137.31. 
 
 Mr. Davis. At this date 1 
 
 Mr. Jones. Up to 1869. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. What' did that 80 per cent, of certificates represent? 
 
 Mr. Jones. The resolution, jf I recollect, read something like this: 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 315 
 
 " Resolved, That the New York Central Eailroad Company have ex- 
 pended out of their surplus earnings an amount equal to 80 per cent, of 
 'its capital, and that the stockholders are entitled to some dividend on 
 such expenditure : Therefore, 
 
 " Resolved, That certificates be issued to represent the sum so paid." 
 
 Mr. Davis. Did they require legislation for that? 
 
 Mr. Jones. Yes, sir ; it was afterward confirmed by the legislature. 
 In other words, it does, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, 
 just what I should claim a railroad company has no right to do — capi- 
 talize its surplus earnings ; that is, the sums paid by the public, for the 
 use of a public highway, in excess of the legitimate demands required 
 to pay its necessary operating expenses, keep it in repair, and a fair re- 
 turn on moneys actually invested lor the public welfare. In other words, 
 that you cannot make a public use a public highway, such as a railroad 
 has grown to be in this country, the common highway of the country, 
 over which all the commerce and all the travel of the country is trans- 
 acted, a. matter of private speculation without destroying the general 
 prosperity of the people, without undermining it, destroying it, and, to 
 sum it up, as you would undoubtedly call it as a lawyer and a Senator, 
 being against public policy. 
 
 To illustrate: If the obligations outstanding against the New York 
 Central and Hudson River Eailroad Company were restricted to the 
 amount actually paid by their stock and bond holders, say $25,000,000 
 at the outside, the commerce of this city, its business and the industries 
 .of the people living along the line of that road, would not be taxed over 
 $L', 500,000 each year to pay dividends of 10 per cent, on its capital. 
 But by incorporating their surplus earnings into its capital they have 
 increased it to the sum, as you see here, of $105,500,000, and it requires 
 $6,000 ? 000 each year to be added to the burden on the necessaries of life 
 of the people and their travel to meet and pay these dividends. It is to 
 that point that I desire particularly to call the attention of the commit- 
 tee, as being one that is fundamental in its character, and laying away 
 back of all the details in relation to this question that you have under 
 consideration. 
 
 I merely desire to call the attention of the committee for one moment 
 to the increased earnings of these roads, because we all remember when 
 'railroads were new things in this country, people never dreamed of 
 using them to any considerable extent. They were the exception and 
 not the rule ; not in general use as our common public highways, which 
 they have grown td be. I wish to be understood that they were excep- 
 tional as highways, and they were not in general use. We used canals, 
 plank-roads, and turnpikes. I would say, however, that I desire to im- 
 press upon the committee that our system of highways since the intro- 
 duction of railroads has undergone an entire change in its character ; 
 that, owing to the superior advantages of railroads over other highways, 
 they have practically superseded them as agents of commerce and travel, 
 and have come to be almost universally adopted by the people. To 
 prove this, I will right here call the attention of the committee to some 
 figures which I prepared a few days ago, showing the proportion of tax 
 on commerce over the canals and that over railroads : 
 
 F)-om the comptroller's report for 1873. 
 
 Auiouut paid for tolls on the canals of this State for the year 1972 $3, 060, 323 89 
 
 Amount paid to boatmen for moving property over the canals for the 
 year 1872 6,000,000 00 
 
 Total tax on commerce moved over the canals for the year 1872. . 9, 060, 328 89 
 
316 TRANSPORT ATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 From the State engineer and surveyor's report, 1873. , 
 
 Amount paid for transporting passengers over tbe railroads of this State 
 
 during the year 1872 $24,472,869 12 
 
 Amount for freight 62,384,202 20 
 
 Amount for other uses, mostly for moving property 6, 211, 108 55 
 
 Total tax on commerce and travel for the use of the railroads of 
 this State for 1872 - 93,032,179 67 
 
 From the auditor of canals' report for 1873. ,, 
 
 Number of tons moved over all the canals of the State during the year 
 
 1872 6,673,370 
 
 From State engineer's report. 
 
 Number of tpns moved over the railroads of this State during the year 
 
 1872 27,427,415 
 
 Difference in favor of railroads 20,754,045 
 
 In olden times, or up until within two years, it has been estimated 
 that the amount paid boatmen for moving property, about equaled the 
 sum paid the State for tolls, but under the reduced toll-sheet, tbe boat- 
 men undoubtedly receive more than the State receives for tolls, so I have 
 estimated 'it at twice the amount and called the amount paid to boat- 
 men $6,000,000. We find that the tax on commerce, or ou property 
 moved over the canals during that year, was $9,060,328.09. 
 
 The Chairman. The $3,060,000 is, then, actual, and the $6,000,000 
 estimated,? 
 
 Mr. Jones. Yes, sir. By these figures it will be observed that the 
 people have. adopted railroads as the agency they will employ for mov- 
 ing their property and persons to the extent of ten times the amount iu 
 money paid for tbe use of canals. 
 
 Mr. Davis. It would be interesting to me if you could tell me the 
 number of tons moved per mile, one mile, compared with what this 
 $6:3,000,000 represents on railroads and what the $9,000,000 represents 
 on canals. 
 
 Mr. Jones. Different reports from these people, which you can get, 
 will furnish you with all the details in relation to that question, or I 
 should be pleased to furnish them myself. 
 
 Now, Mr. Chairman, in relation to the earnings 6f these roads, divi- 
 dends, &c. The gross earnings of the New York Central Railroad iu 
 1854 were $5,000,000; transportation expenses, $3,088,000; net earn- 
 ings, $2,830,000; interest paid, $656,000; amount (paid by dividends, 
 $1,125,000. In 1855 the gross earnings were $6,500,000 ; transportation 
 expenses, $3,400,000; net earnings, $3,160,000 ; interest paid, $839,000, 
 and dividends, $2,875,000. 
 
 So it runs along until 1863, when the earnings sprang up to $10,000,000. 
 In 1864, $12,000,000; 1865, $13,000,000; 1866, $14,000,000; 1867, 
 $13,000,000; 1868, $14,000,000; 1869, $15,000,000, with the interest 
 amounting in 1869 to $894,000. The committee will bear in mind that 
 there has been no additional assessments ou the stock aud bond holders 
 all this time, and the dividend amounting to $4,300,000. Tbe same ratio 
 holds good in relation to earnings and dividends on the Hudson Elver 
 Eoad. I am speaking of before the consolidation. In 1852 the earnings 
 were $1,063,000; in 1869, $6,484,000. The interest paid in 1864 was 
 $350,000, and dividends, $1,259,000. Those roads were consolidated, as 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 317 
 
 I before stated, with a capital of $45,000,000, and consolidation certifi- 
 cates of $44,428,330 were issued, being 80 per cent, on the entire capital 
 of the property, bringing its indebtedness or outstanding obligations 
 at that time to $103,110,107.31. In 1870 the gross earnings were 
 $22,201,521.43; transportation expenses, $14,068,079.31 ; net earnings, 
 $8,133,442.12. In 1871 -the earnings were $21,000,000; expenses, 
 $13,000,000; net earnings, $8,500,000; amount of interest paid, 
 $721,000 ; amount of dividends paid, $7,258,741.70, or more than the 
 entire gross earnings of both roads — the New York Central and the Hud- 
 son Biver — during the year 1853. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do 1 understand that the dividends paid stockholders in 
 a single year were greater than the gross earnings of the road"? 
 
 Mr. Jones. Not for that year, but for 1854, since when the stock and 
 bond holders have never paid any sums, except $1,000,000, for the im- 
 provement of their property. Practically, they have paid nothing. 
 There has been no issue of bonds since that time, except those to repre- 
 sent the surplus earnings of the road — the watered stock. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. No bonds issued for construction or improvement! 
 
 Mr. Jones. None that have entered into the account that have not 
 been redeemed, because the bonded indebtedness is now no greater than 
 it was at that time. 
 
 Mr. Davis. And those that have been redeemed have been redeemed . 
 from the earnings of the road, I understand. • 
 
 Mr. Jones. They have been redeemed out of the surplus earnings of 
 the road ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you the statistics with reference to the Lake 
 Shore Eoad 1 
 
 Mr. Jones. Not in detail ; they are stated generally, here. The dif- 
 ferent branches consolidated into the Lake Shore and Michigan South-. 
 ern Eoad, represent very different returns on the original capital. For 
 instauce, you take any of the branches east of Cleveland — there was 
 the Buffalo and State Line, and the Erie and the State Line, and the 
 State Line, and the Erie and Ashtabula, and the Ashtabula and Cleve- 
 land — for every thousand dollars invested in the original stock of any 
 of these companies, there are now outstanding from $7,000 to $10,000 
 of obligations, on which the commerce and travel of the country is 
 taxed to pay dividends. 
 
 The Chairman. What did yon take that from ; their reports 1 
 
 Mr. Jones. Yes, sir ; some of the western branches ran for many 
 years without paying dividends at all. The old Kalamazoo Eoad and 
 others cost very little, and went a great many years without paying 
 dividends. But it is safe to assert that the road never cost the stock 
 and bond holders $25,000,000, and it now represents a capital of 
 880,000,000. To show the influence of this question, admitting the cap- 
 ital stock of railroad companies to increase as population and traffic 
 and business along their lines increase, instead of reducing their rates, 
 which I hold they should do in order that the public may derive advan- 
 tages from the construction of railroads, I will state that in order to pay 
 dividends on the actual cost of the New York Central Eailroad during the 
 next eighteen years, would amount to a sum about equal to $36,000,000. 
 To pay dividends at the rate of 8 per cent, on its present capital, it will 
 impose a burden on the commerce and travel of the country, and the 
 people living along the line of the road, amounting to $144,000,000. In 
 this pamphlet, if you have looked it over, you will see that I argue that 
 that is one of the reasons why trade is being diverted from this city to 
 Baltimore, Philadelphia, Montreal, and Boston, and is because the roads 
 
318 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 reaching those cities represent nearer their cost, and property reaching 
 them avoids the tax of paying dividends upon that vast amount of fi c . 
 titious or watered capital. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. At that point can you state what is the relative rate 
 of freight that they charge, compared with these roads ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. To illustrate. I reside in Albany. When the river closes 
 in the winter, the local rates of freight are immediately advanced over 
 the New York Central Road, and along the line between here and Al- 
 bany, so that the average rate from New York to Albany is 55 cents per 
 hundred. The distance is one hundred and forty-lour miles over a per- 
 fectly level road, and a road easier and cheaper operated than almost 
 any in the country. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What class of goods do you speak of? 
 
 Mr. Jones. Ordinary merchandise — fourth class. The same class of 
 goods is brought fromBoston to Albany at 40 cents per hundred. 
 
 Mr. Davis. How many miles ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. Two hundred miles, over a road of heavy grades, and an 
 expensive road to operate. 
 
 Mr. Davis. You spoke of what the freight was when the river closed; 
 what is it when the river is open ; now, for instance? 
 
 Mr. Jones. Anywhere from 12 to 25 cents. 
 • In answer further to your question, Mr. Norwood, it is notorious that 
 property is transported from Baltimore throughout the entire West, as 
 far as the Baltimore and Ohio Boad with its branches extends, at rates 
 very much less than those usually charged from the city of New York, 
 averaging from 15 to 25 cents per hundred to the West. Grain is ship- 
 ped from Milwaukee or Chicago to Baltimore, on an average of three to 
 six cents per bushel less than when brought to this city by rail. The 
 result of that is that the Baltimore and Ohio Road has all the property it 
 can possibly handle, and Baltimore derives the advantages. Its mer- 
 chants derive the advantages of handling that property which, we hold, 
 otherwise would reach New York. 
 
 Mr. Davis. How is it with the Pennsylvania Boad ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. The same holds good in relation to the Pennsylvania 
 road, and the reason of it is that Mr. Garrett, the president of the Bal- 
 timore and Ohio Railroad Company, never has permitted the capital stock 
 of the Baltimore and Ohio road to be increased beyond the amount ex- 
 pended on it by its stock and bond holders. In other words, the capital 
 stock of the Baltimore and Ohio road has never been watered, but its 
 surplus earnings have been expended in improving its facilities for 
 moving and handling property. 
 
 The Chairman. Have they added to their capital stock 1 
 
 Mr. Jones. No, sir ; the number of engines on the Baltimore and Ohio 
 Railroad has doubled within the last five years. The number of freight- 
 cars has more than doubled. Running around the piers and wharves 
 of Baltimore, there are, it is asserted, as many as seventy-five miles of 
 railroad track ; so that the Baltimore and Ohio road going into Baltimore 
 runs its cars directly alongside of the vessels, property is transferred 
 from the car directly into the vessel, the car is put on to another track, 
 receives its return freight, and is moved off at once. 
 
 The money that has been paid out on the New York Central, for in- 
 stance, to pay dividends on its watered obligations, in that case has 
 been expended on improving its facilities, whereby the public have been 
 benefited at a reduction of expense of from three to six cents per bushel 
 on the moving and handling ,of grain between the West and its ulti- 
 mate destination, Liverpool. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 319 
 
 Mr. Davis. Does the same hold good with western freight, such as 
 coffee, sugar, &c. 1 
 
 Mr. Jones. There was a great deal said about it. It was only one of 
 those things, however, which is used to blind the public and stifle an 
 investigation of this question ; the charge that the coffee-trade was en- 
 tirely diverted from the city of New York in consequence of the port- 
 charges. There was great annoyance,'there is no doubt about it, under 
 the system that prevailed here, but the real facts, the real cause for 
 transferring the coffee-trade from New York to Baltimore was that a 
 Baltimore merchant could ship his coffee to the West 25 cents a hun- 
 dred cheaper than a New York merchant could. It has held good dur- 
 ing the last five years. 
 
 Mr. Davis. I notice in your comparisons they are all on the New 
 York Central. How do they hold good with the other roads coming in 
 here, for instance, the Erie and the Pennsylvania Central"? Does what 
 you have said in regard "to the New York Central hold good, as a rule, 
 to the Erie and Pennsylvania, who have terminal lines here? 
 
 Mr. Jones. Here is a paragraph covering that matter, as far as pos- 
 sible, because since 1867 we have had no reports on this subject. It at- 
 tracted a great deal of attention in 1867. The reports were made in 
 relation to the disadvantages under which New York City was laboring, 
 as compared with other cities, and, especially, in relation to this great 
 artery, the New York Central road. 
 
 The increase of the total freight business on the Erie road between 
 1802 and 1867 was 57 per cent.; on the Pennsylvania Central, 59 per 
 cent. ; on the New York Central, 22 per cent. ; on the Hudson River, 
 21 per cent. ; and on the Harlem, 5§ per cent. The increase of charges 
 per ton per mile on the Erie Road during the same year was 5£ per 
 cent.; on the New York Central, 14 per cent.; on the Hudson River, 70 
 per cent. ; on the Harlem, 94 per cent.; while the reduction on the Penn- 
 sylvania Central was 2£ per cent. It does not give the Baltimore and 
 Ohio,, but the reduction on that road was still greater than that of the 
 Pennsylvania. 
 
 You will see that the roads in this Stateincreased their charges. Since 
 that they have been diminished, but not in proportion to their increased 
 income, nor their business, nor even to as low a point as they were in 
 1857. We have no later dates from which to base anything, because 
 the railroad companies have made no reports covering that ground 
 since 1867, when it elicited a great deal of discussion. 
 
 Mr. Davis. That does not quite cover all my question. I asked you 
 whether your general remarks, particularly as to the watering of stocks, 
 as it is termed, would hold good in relation to the other two roads ter- 
 minating here. You have stated that they do not hold good as to the 
 Baltimore and Ohio, but you have not stated whether or not they hold 
 good as to the other through lines that terminate here. 
 
 Mr. Jones. In relation to the Erie Railroad Company, all I have to 
 say is this, that it is a notorious fact that from the day the hist train of 
 cars ever ran over it until the present time, it has always been in the 
 hands of a set of public plunderers, very few men directly interested 
 in its mauagement ever living along its lines, a foot-ball in Wall street 
 and Loudon, aud managed and manipulated for the interest of those 
 people, instead of the general commerce of the country aud the people 
 living tributary to it, so that you can make no comparison between the 
 two roads. I hold that it makes no difference, as far as public interests 
 are concerned, whether the obligations of a railroad company are in- 
 creased and burdens imposed on the people to pay dividends on that 
 
320 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 increase for the benefit of the stockholders, or whether a railroad is 
 managed by a set of men who have no interest whatever, except in 
 manipulating its property for their own personal advantage, whether 
 they use it up in paying big salaries, dividing their contracts, favor- 
 itism in moving property, &c. 
 
 Mr. Davis. That is not quite the line. I only inquired, generally, as 
 to whether what you said in reference to the "New York Central as to 
 its management, and as to its watered stock, would apply measurably to 
 the other two roads. 
 
 Mr. Jones. I can name five men who have made more money out of 
 handling the property and manipulating the stock of the Erie Eailroad 
 Company than it ever cost. 
 
 Mr. Conkxing. Who do you mean by that? 
 
 Mr. Jones. I mean that Mr. Daniel Drew, Mr. Jay Gould, Mr. James 
 Eisk, jr., Mr. William M. Tweed, Mr. Sweeney, Mr. Lane, and a half- 
 dozen other less conspicuous men, saying nothing of the Bishop Shinier, 
 and other unmentionable names, have made more money in mnnipulat- 
 ing the stock and handling the property and stock of the Erie Eailroad 
 Company than the road ever cost, with all its appurtenances, and that 
 it has been managed for their individual benefit without regard to pub- 
 lic interest. 
 
 So that there can be no fair criterion established between the two 
 roads. One has been managed literally for the interest of stockholders, 
 under the management of Commodore Vanderbilt, increasing their cap- 
 ital as business along its line would pay on an increased capital, and in 
 the other case the property has been managed exclusively for the in- 
 terests of those who control it here in Wall street or London. 
 
 Mr. Conkxing. I understand you have spoken of three other lines. 
 How about the Pennsylvania Central? 
 
 Mr. Jones. I am not prepared to speak in relation to it. I am not 
 familiar with its details. I only know that it is one of the competing 
 lines from this city for the business of the- coutinent. But it usually, 
 after competing a while, terminates in a combination with other roads, 
 and the establishment of rates. Sometimes, I suppose, to promote pub- 
 lic interest, but, generally, to plunder the people. 
 
 Mr. Conkxing. Are you familiar with the local rate of the roads; 
 can you tell us how it compares with the through rate? Take the New 
 York Central, if you are familiar with it at all ; in general, how does 
 it compare? 
 
 Mr. Jones, Do you mean through rates on freight or passengers 1 
 
 Mr. Conkxing. On freight. 
 
 Mr. Jones. Through rates are generally the same to competing 
 poiuts. They are the same to Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit, and Chicago. 
 
 Mr. Conkxing. Perhaps you did not understand my question. I said, 
 how did the through rates compare with the local ? Is there any com- 
 plaint, in other words, upon the line of the road that their iocal rate is 
 greater than the through rate, and that, therefore, the people along the 
 line of the road are unjustly dealt with ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. The complaint in this State is almost universal. Manu- 
 facturers having goods to ship to the West, from as far west as Syra- 
 cuse, frequently ship their goods to the city of New York, and reship 
 them right back three hundred miles through that city to Chicago, in 
 order to reach a competing point. The rates on local freight at points 
 along the line of either the Erie or the Ceutral— and those are the two 
 lines running through the State — are frequently double, two hundred 
 miles from New York, to what they are between here and Chicago. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 321 
 
 They are frequently double to a point thirty miles from a competing 
 point what they are at that point thirty miles beyond, the line of 
 the same road. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Can you give us any figures on any particular point ; any- 
 thing which you have in your mind specially in relation to this mat- 
 ter? 
 
 Mr. Jones. They have the rates published to all the different points. 
 When it is brought to a competing point, it is frequently reduced at that 
 point one-half what it may be to a station thirty, forty, or fifty miles 
 this side of it, or a less distance over the road. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Then I understand from that that they charge, in many 
 instances, for a less distance more than they charge for the greater dis- 
 tance ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. It is the rule and not the exception, the greater distance, 
 the end of the road, being a competing point. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What per cent, would be the rule; what would that 
 charge be for a lesser distance over the greater ! In other words, at 
 competing points, I understand, it is less, and where there is no com- 
 peting point the charges are greater without regard to the distance. 
 Now, can you give us an idea of what per cent. ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. It is not uniform ; there is no uniformity to it, so that you 
 cannot arrive at a conclusion as to any percentage. The published rates 
 are uniform, but they vary as competition comes and goes. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What per cent, is the local rate, as a rule, over the rate 
 to a competing point? 
 
 Mr. Jones. I think it is about 75 per cent. I have not the figures 
 with me. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Youthink that applies to each of the through lines iu the 
 State? 
 
 Mr. Jones. O, yes, sir ; it is not unfrequently the case. They were 
 last week sending property over the Erie Road to a competing point, 
 and, for instance, here are two stations, one twenty miles this side; 
 they are sending it through to the farthest station, and then bringing it 
 back by wagon-loads, twenty miles. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Where is that ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. Up in Cattaraugus County, so a gentleman was telling me 
 the other day. 
 
 Mr. Davis. I understood you that it was not unusual at all to ship it 
 past the point you want it to the farther point, and then pay the local 
 freight back to the point that you want your goods ? 
 
 Mr. Jones. That holds good. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. If you could furnish the committee with any partic- 
 ular instance of a charge of that kind it would be gratifying to me, be- 
 cause I have understood every railroad-man who has been before us to 
 state that, while their rates' are lower from "competing points, relatively, 
 than they are to intermediate points, in no instance does the charge to 
 an intermediate point exceed in actual amount that to a competing point 
 or a point at a greater distance. 
 
 Mr. Jones. I hardly conceive how a man could have the face to .make 
 such a statement before the present intelligent committee. Were you 
 not possibly mistaken in their language ? I remember hearing the 
 question asked of Mr. Worcester when he was before the committee, 
 and he replied that they had not charged more for a less distance than 
 a greater distance, except at competing points. 
 
 Mr. Davis. No ; he did not make any exception. 
 
 Mr. Jones. I understood him to say so, because I know it is a noto- 
 rious fact. 
 
 01 T S 
 
322 TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOAED. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Could you furnish us with the tariff rates as published 
 by the road, which would show your statement to be correct f I mean, 
 will their published rates show the fact that you state f To illustrate^ 
 will they show that the freight rate from here to Syracuse is greater 
 than it is to Buffalo, taking Buffalo as a competing point? 
 
 Mr. Jones. No, sir ; they will not. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Will they show that their freights are greater from 
 here to Syracuse than they are from here to Manlius ? I take that as 
 ,being the last considerable point before you reach Syracuse. 
 
 Mr. Jones. Many of their published tariffs will have the competing 
 points blank. 
 
 Mr. Davis. I have April 3d, said to be the last tariff rate of the New 
 York Central. I notice that certain stations on the road are left blank, 
 so that at competing points they charge what suits them, and on the 
 others they have published rates. 
 
 Mr. Jones. Buffalo, for instance, and Eochester are left blank. Those 
 are strictly competing points. Syracuse is not strictly a competing 
 point, neither is Utica, to any considerable extent. You will observe 
 that Buffalo is left blank, because, as they will inform you, that is gov- 
 erned by competition. I have known freight to be carried to Buffalo at 
 25 cents a hundred, when it cost 50 cents a hundred to Albany. Eoch- 
 ester and Buffalo are the only strictly competing points on the line of 
 this road. 
 
 Mr. Davis. I notice another thing which perhaps you can explain. I 
 do not know the distance, as the miles are not given, but here yon have 
 40 cents a hundred at any place along up beyond Eochester. It is the 
 same thing when you get to Buffalo. Now what is the difference in 
 miles, the rates being the same"? 
 
 Mr. Jones. Batavia is about thirty-eight miles this side of Buffalo, 
 and the tariff rate is 38 cents. The summer rates are hardly a fair test 
 for comparison, because during the summer this road has the Hudson 
 Eiver and Erie Canal in competition with it all the time. When the 
 frosts come and the river and the canal are closed, then the railroad com- 
 pany becomes master of the situation, and establishes its own tariff in this 
 State, and that is one point that I desire to make, for I do not know that 
 the committee, except in considering this subject as a whole in relation 
 to the public welfare, can reach it. In this State there is no properly 
 or legally constituted authority standing between the people and the 
 railroad company to protect the interests of the people in relation to the 
 transportation of freights. In relation to the transportation of passen- 
 gers, every road has an established legal rate ; but in reference to the 
 transportation of property there is no restriction whatever over any of 
 the roads of the State. The railroads become the government, as it 
 were, establishing its own price for transporting the property of the 
 people. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Can you tell why the legislature regulates the transporta- 
 tion for passengers and not for freight? 
 
 Mr. Jones. There is no good reason for it. No good reason can be 
 offered except the power and influence of railroad corporations over the 
 legislature. A committee of the senate or assembly of New York, for in- 
 stance, get together, and they undertake to discuss this question. Well, 
 before they fully understand it, the hundred days have expired, or else 
 the influence of the railroad companies has been of such a character as 
 to induce them to believe that it is best to leave the whole question in 
 the hands of the railroad corporations. 
 
 It is unnecessary, perhaps, to go into detail in relation to that matter, 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 323 
 
 but we understand pretty well that railroad companies run the legisla- 
 ture of this State — the people have not a great deal to say about it. 
 
 I would like to say, because I have been misrepresented, Mr. Senator, 
 in one or two quarters in the public press, that I am not in favor of 
 congressional interference in the details of the management of railroads 
 within the States. I believe that it is a subject that should be regulated 
 by the States under general laws adopted by Congress. I believe that 
 our railroad system in this State should be governed by a board of rail- 
 road commissioners, who should be clothed with authority sufficient to 
 protect the interests of the people against any unjust demands of railroad 
 corporations or companies. I think that it would be proper in Congress 
 to adopt some general laws for the regulation and control of railroads, 
 they having become, I hold, the common highways of this country, and 
 being nothing more nor less than improved highways that have been 
 universally adopted by the people. When it comes to the detail of the 
 management relating to them,, it is a subject that, I think, belongs to 
 and should be exercised by the different States. 
 
 NEW YORK CENTRAL. 
 
 Formed under the provisions of chap. 76, laws of 1853. Consolidation agreement 
 entered into May 17, 1853 ; copy of same filed with secretary of state July 7, 1853 ; the 
 following companies entering into the consolidation : 
 
 Name of road. 
 
 Capital stock. 
 
 Stock paid in. 
 
 Funded debt. 
 
 Floating 
 debt. 
 
 Cost of road, 
 &c. 
 
 
 f 1, 000, 000 00 
 650, 000 00 
 
 4, 500, OCO 00 
 2, 400, 000 00 
 
 5, 549, 800 00 
 600, 000 00 
 
 2, 000, 000 00 
 
 600, 000 00 
 
 1, 8S5, 000 00 
 
 1, 675, 000 00 
 
 $1, 064, 700 00 
 
 650, 000 00 
 
 4, 124, 000 00 
 
 2, 400, 000 00 
 
 5, 132, 990 00 
 
 210, 000 00 
 
 $685, 300 00 
 
 90, 200 00 
 
 1, 500, 000 00 
 
 126, 000 00 
 
 700, 123 10 
 
 
 $1, 774, 548 22 
 
 
 S3, 578 70 
 
 685, 523 39 
 4 093,273 11 
 
 
 
 
 
 60, 000 00 
 
 *6, 016J 778 17 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Buffalo and Rochester 
 
 Rochester, Lockport and Niagara 
 Falls 
 
 1, 825, 000 00 
 1, 446, 180 00 
 
 184, 903 00 
 711, 000 00 
 
 150, 000 00 
 
 2, 415, 014 29 
 
 
 
 
 Total 
 
 20, 799, 800 00 
 
 16, 852, 870 00 
 
 2, 497, 526 10 
 
 213, 578 70 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 * Includes §1, 042,421.76 for construction of Rochester and Syracuse direct road, 
 t Road not completed. 
 
 These figures are from the report of the companies for the year ending September 
 30, 1852, except the capital of Syracuse and Utica direct, which is taken from articles 
 of association. 
 
 The capital stock, fixed by consolidation agreement, was $63,085,600. Capita] paid 
 in September 30, 1853, $22,213,983.81. Funded debt, $11,564,033.62 ; cost of road, &c, 
 $22,044,529.25. 
 
 Stock and debts, and cost of road and equipment. 
 
 Tear. 
 
 Capital stock. 
 
 Stock paid in. 
 
 Funded debt. 
 
 Cost of road, &c. 
 
 1854 
 
 $23, 085, 600 00 
 24, 200, 600 00 
 24, 136, 660 69 
 24, 182, 400 00 
 24, 182, 400 00 
 24, 182, 400 00 
 24, 000, 000 00 
 24,000,000 00 
 24, 000, 000 00 
 24, 209, 000 00 
 24, 386, 000 00 
 24, 591, 000 00 
 24, 801, 000 00 
 28, 537, 000 00 
 28, 780, 000 00 
 
 28, 795, 000 00 
 
 $23, 067, 415 00 
 24, 154, 860 69 
 24, 136, 060 69 • 
 24, 136, 660 69 
 24,183, 400 00 
 •24, 000, 000 00 
 24, 000, 000 00 
 24, 000, 000 00 
 24, 000, 000 00 
 24,209,000 00 
 24,386,000 00 
 24, 591, 000 00 
 24, 801, 000 00 
 28, 537, 000 00 
 28, 780, COO 00 
 C 28, 795, 000 00 
 ) 123,036,000 00 
 
 $11,947,121 04 
 14, 462, 742 32 
 14, 763, 897 29 
 14, 607, 510 17 
 14, 402, 634 69 
 14, 333, 771 21 
 14, 332, 523 06 
 M, 613, 005 50 
 14, 279, 593 37 
 13, 779, 648 36 
 
 13, 211, 341 57 
 14,627,442 77 
 
 14, 095) 804 '34 
 12,069,820 18 
 11, 458, 904 11 
 
 | 11, 398, 425 87 
 
 §25,907,374 41 
 
 1855 
 
 28, 523, 913 30 
 
 1856 
 
 29, 786, 372 50 
 
 1857 
 
 30, 515, 815 06 
 
 1658 
 
 30. 732, 517 54 
 
 1859 
 
 30, 840, 713 71 
 
 1860 
 
 31, 106, 094 62 
 
 1861 
 
 31, 524, 226 15 
 
 1862 
 
 31, 787, 397 30 
 
 1863 
 
 32, 740, *:G8 02 
 
 1864 
 
 32, 879, 251 38 
 
 1865 
 
 33,701,619 56 
 
 1866 
 
 34,133,911 35 
 
 1867 
 
 36, 594, 405 52 
 
 1868 
 
 36, C07, 696 87 
 
 1869 
 
 37,603,696 87 
 
 
 
 * $182,000 stock retired and bonds issued instead. 
 
 t Interest certificates. 
 
324 
 
 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
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TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 325 
 
 HUDSON RIVER RAILROAD COMPANY. 
 
 (Organized March 1, 1847, under the provisions of chap. 216, Laws of 1846. Original 
 capital stock $3,000,000 ; whole line opened October 1, 1851.) 
 
 Stock and debts and cost of road and equipment. 
 
 Tear. 
 
 Capital stock, as 
 by charter, »fec. 
 
 Stock paid in. 
 
 Funded debt 
 
 Floating debt. 
 
 Cost of road, 
 &c. 
 
 1851 
 
 $4, 000, 000 00 
 4, 000, 000 00 
 4, 000, 000 00 
 4, 000, 000 00 
 4, 000, 000 00 
 4, 000, 000 00 
 4, 000, 000 00 
 4, 000, 000 00 
 4, 000, 000 00 
 4, 000, 000 00 
 4, 000, 000 00 
 4, 000, 000 00 
 4, 000, 000 00 
 4, 000, 000 00 
 4, 000, 000 00 
 4, 000, 000 00 
 4, 000, 000 00 
 4, 000, 000 00 
 4, 000, 000 00 
 
 $3, 703, 229 23 
 3, 740, 515 99 
 3, 727, 826 80 
 3,757,891 97 
 3, 758, 466 59 
 3, 701, 600 00 
 3,758,466 59 
 3, 758, 466 59 
 3, 758, 466. 59 
 3, 758, 466 59 
 3, 758, 466 59 
 
 3, 758, 466 59 
 
 4, 422, 023 08 
 ♦6, 218, 041 89 
 
 6, 563, 250 38 
 6, 962, 971 43 
 9, 981, 500 00 
 13, 932, 700 00 
 16, 020, 800 00 
 
 $5, 646, 884 92 
 
 6, 046, 395 00 
 
 7, 964, 335 00 
 
 8, 006, 435 00 
 8, 842, 000 00 
 8, 842, 000 00 
 8, 842, 000 00 
 8, 842, 000 00 
 8, 842, 000 00 
 9, 107, 000 00 
 9, 137, 000 00 
 9, 137, OHO 00 
 8, 938, 750 00 
 7, 737, 680 00 
 7, 762, 840 00 
 7, 227, 400 00 
 6, 394, 550 00 
 6, 074, 960 00 
 4, 309, 220 00 
 
 $159, 427 58 
 
 956, 090 42 
 
 380, 104 26 
 
 927, 369 05 
 
 408, 362 84 
 
 399,311 16 
 
 453, 315 51 
 
 455, 003 04 
 
 414, 634 35 
 
 182, 106 10 
 
 773, 411 27 
 
 298, 424 33 
 
 4, 167 00 
 
 1, 167 00 
 
 1, 167 00 
 
 1, 167 00 
 
 1, 167 00 
 
 1, 167 00 
 
 1, 167 00 
 
 $9,305,551 09 
 
 1852 
 
 10, 527, 654 75 
 
 1853 
 
 11, 780, 954 24 
 
 1854 
 
 12, 391, 363 55 
 
 1855 
 
 12, 737, 898 03 
 
 1856 
 
 12, 802, 528 24 
 
 1857 
 
 *11,283, 019 12 
 
 
 11,328,986 96 
 
 
 11,388.279 64 
 
 1860 
 
 11, 800, 445 50 
 
 1861 
 
 12, 049, 599 75 
 
 1862 
 
 12, 113, 794 31 
 
 1863 
 
 tl4, 186, 824 11 
 
 1664 
 
 1865 
 
 14, 669, 847 02 
 15,264,586 57 
 
 1866 
 
 15,543,825 39 
 
 1867 
 
 17, 505, 037 26 
 
 1868 
 
 19, 185, 989 22 
 
 1869 
 
 19,919,531 42 
 
 
 
 * Reduction owing to discount, interest on scrip, &c, heretofore included, not reported this year, 
 t Discount, &c, omitted since 1857, again reported. 
 {Increased by conversion of bonds. 
 
326 
 
 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
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TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 NEW YORK CENTRAL AND HUDSON RIVER RAILROAD. 
 
 327 
 
 (Articles of consolidation under provisions of chapter 917, laws of 1869, filed with the 
 secretary of state November 1, 1869.) 
 
 Stock and debts. 
 
 Year. 
 
 Capital stock. 
 
 Consolidation certifi- 
 cates. 
 
 Funded debt. 
 
 Total. 
 
 1870 
 
 $45, 000, 000 
 45, 000, 000 
 
 $44, 428, 330 
 44, 428, 330 
 
 $13, 681, 807 31 
 15, 231, 718 93 
 
 $103, 110, 137 31 
 
 1U71 
 
 104, 660, 048 S3 
 
 
 
 Cost of road and equipment. 
 
 1870. 
 1871. 
 
 Earnings and payments other than for construction. 
 
 $59,765,684 06 
 60, 413, 656 86 
 
 Year. 
 
 Gross earnings. 
 
 Transportation ex- 
 penses. 
 
 Net earnings. 
 
 Interest. 
 
 1870 
 
 $22, 201, 521 43 
 21, 972, 105 47 
 
 611,068,079 31 
 13, 578, 572 61 
 
 $8, 133, 442 12 
 8, 393 532 80 
 
 $1, 093, 840 SO 
 
 1871 
 
 721, 303 04 
 
 
 
 
 44, 173, 626 90 
 
 27, 646, 651 92 
 
 16, 526, 974 98 
 
 1, 815, 148 Si 
 
 Year. 
 
 Dividends. 
 
 Other payments. 
 
 l^cal payments. 
 
 1870 
 
 $6, 861, 241 29 
 7, 258, 741 70 
 
 $228. 975 09 
 71, 74S, Ki 
 
 $22, 252, 137 29 
 21. 630 371 57 
 
 1871 
 
 
 
 
 14, 119, 982 99 
 
 300, 725 11 
 
 43, 882, 508 86 
 
 NEW YORK CENTRAL. 
 
 Title of laws. 
 
 Chapter 76, Laws of 1853. — An act to authorize the consolidation of any two or more 
 of the following railroad companies into a single company : Albany and Schenectady , 
 Schenectady and Troy, Utica and Schenectady, Syracuse and Utica, Rochester and 
 Syracuse, Buffalo and Lockport, Mohawk Valley, Syracuse and Utica Direct, Buffalo 
 and Rochester, and Rochester, Lockport and Niagara FallB. 
 
 Section 1. No. 1. * * * * * * The amount of capital, and the number of 
 shares of the stock of the new corporations, which shall not be larger in amount than 
 the aggregate amount of capital of the several companies thus consolidated, aDd 
 shall not be increased, except in accordance with tho provisions of the act p&ssed 
 
 April a, 1850. 
 
 # * * # * * # 
 
 The provisions of the general railroad act referred to : 
 
 § 9. In case the capital stock of any company formed under this act is found to be 
 insufficient for constructing and operating its road, such company may, with the con- 
 currence of two-thirds in amount of all its stockholders, increase its capital stock, 
 from time to time, to any amount required for the purposes aforesaid. Such increase 
 must be sanctioned by a vote in person, or by proxy, of two-thirds in ajiount of all 
 the stockholders of the company, at a meeting of such stockholders, called by the 
 directors of the company for that purpose, by a notice in writing to each stockholder, 
 to be served on him personally, or by depositing the same, properly folded and directed 
 to him, at the post-office nearest his usual place of residence, in the post-office, at least 
 twenty days prior to such meeting. Such notice must state the time and place of 
 the meeting, and its object, and the amount to which it isjproposed to increase the 
 capital stock. The proceedings of such meeting must be entered on the minutes of 
 the proceedings of the company, and thereupon the capital stock of the company may 
 
328 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 be increased to the amount sanctioned by a vote of two-thirds in amount of all the 
 stockholders of the company as aforesaid. 
 
 Chapter 228, Laws of 1857.— An act in relation to the payment of fare on the New 
 York Central. 
 
 Chapter 431, Laws of 1857.— An act directing the application of the highway-tax in 
 the town of Mentz. 
 
 Chapter 137, Laws of 1858. An act to repeal the third section of the act in relation 
 to the payment of fares on the New York Central Railroad. 
 
 Chapter 452, Laws of I860.— An act to authorize the New York Central Railroad Com- 
 pany and the Oswego and Syracuse Railroad Company to erect a station-house at 
 Geddes. 
 
 Chapter 851, Laws of 1866. — An act allowing the New York Central and Erie Kail- 
 roads to extend their tracks and run their cars through certain streets in the city of 
 Buffalo. 
 
 Chapter 278, Laws of 1868.— An act in relation to the directors of the New York Cen- 
 tral Railroad Company. 
 
 Chapter 916, Laws of 1869. — An act to amend the act in relation to the directors of 
 the New York Central Railroad Company. 
 
 Chapter 918, Imws of 1869. — An act authorizing the New York Central Railroad Com- 
 pany to increase its capital stock. 
 
 HUDSON RIVER. 
 
 Title of laws. 
 
 Chapter 216, Laws of 1846. — An act to incorporate. ■ 
 
 Chapter 31, Laws of 1847. — An act to amend the act of incorporation. Additional 
 stock may be issued, time extended for completion, &c. 
 
 Chapter 30, Laws of 1848. — An act to amend the act of incorporation. 
 
 Chapter 9, Laws of 1850. — An act to further amend the act of incorporation. Time 
 extended for completion, authorizing the company to borrow money, &c. 
 
 Chapter 323, Laws of 1850.— An act to facilitate the construction of road by author- 
 izing railroad and municipal corporations in its vicinity to aid the same. 
 
 Chapter 7, Laws of 1855. — An act authorizing this company to convey to the United 
 States half an acre of laud, for a site for a beacon-light. 
 
 Chapter 705, Laws of 1866. — An act authorizing this company to construct a bridge 
 over Nepperhan Creek. 
 
 Cliapter 278, Laws of 1868. — An act in relation to the directors of this company and 
 other companies. 
 
 Chapter 916, Laws of 1869. — An act to amend the act in relation to the directors of 
 this company. (Chapter 278, Laws of 1868.) 
 
 Samuel B. Ruggles, of New York City, examined : 
 
 Mr. Chairman, I am not a merchant, forwarder, railroad director, 
 nor a stockholder. I am simply a citizen of New York, who has been con- 
 cerned for forty years in many public capacities, in forwarding our public 
 works, and I feel a great interest in their success, and that they should 
 become really useful to the people. I have no other interest but that. 
 
 The Chairman. What is your judgment as to the relative economy 
 of transportation by rail or water ! 
 
 Mr. Ruggles. There can be no question on that subject. Transpor- 
 tation by water is far the cheapest. I am here for the purpose of stating 
 to the Senate committee what movements are now in progress iu the 
 State of New York for securing the full heariug of this question before 
 your committee. It was rather my object in stating what had taken 
 place here to give you information, and then ask leave to submit that 
 information to you any time before the meeting ot Cougress. That was 
 my object in calling, not so much to communicate any information of 
 my own, but rather to state how the matter is now standing in our 
 State. 
 
 The Chairman. We should be very glad to hear that, sir, if you are 
 prepared to state the present movement. 
 
 Mr. Ruggles. My only object in coming is to ask leave any time to 
 submit to you such information as the State may furnish you before 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 329 
 
 you finally act in Congress ; that the State may be heard before your 
 committee, or rather that agriculture and commerce may be heard, as 
 such, before your committee. As far as they can be embodied in any 
 representation they wish to be heard. I speak for the farmers. I have 
 been among them for the last four or five montbs studying their inter- 
 est. I am an active member of the Chamber of Commerce, and have 
 the commercial interest at heart, and, therefore, in behalf of agriculture 
 and commerce, I wish to state to you how they are concentrating their 
 efforts to be heard before your committee and understood by Congress. 
 I have labored much over public matters. I was taken ill last summer, 
 and went to the country for three or four months for my health. I spent 
 them in the county of Delaware, one of our interior counties, one of the 
 noblest and most important counties, quite away from all canals, and 
 modes of transportation, until very lately. In Delaware County 1 was 
 applied to. I thought it was useful in the three months I was there to 
 collect the agricultural statistics of the State of New York, and arrange 
 them topographically by the different sections of the State, having refer- 
 ence to their proximity to tide-water, or navigable water. I spent three 
 or four months in making' a table, arranging the whole agricultural pro- 
 duct^ and interests of this State, in reference to their facilities for trans- 
 portation. That is one of the tables I wish to submit to you before the 
 meeting of Congress. 
 
 The Chairman. Shall you be ready to submit those statements before 
 the 1st of December ¥ 
 
 Mr. Buggles. I shall, sir. I ask leave to submit that table to you. 
 It will show the portions of the State that devote themselves to plant- 
 ing, to grazing, the supplies of cereals of each portion, rendering neces- 
 sary the movement of food back and forth in the State, their exports ; 
 in other words, the whole interior movement of the State wiH be em- 
 bodied in that table, and I think it will be useful. That, however, con- 
 cerns our State alone; it is rather local. Tour function, as I under- 
 stand, is much grander, not to adjust the interests of the State of New 
 York, but the far greater question of how shall the interior valleys of 
 of this country reach the ocean. That I take it to be the great problem 
 before you ; all the rest is incidental. Prom that point of view I ask 
 leave to submit to you a report made of the cereals of the globe, which 
 I had the honor to make, which gives you the total product of the 
 United States, its movement toward the ocean, the total product of all 
 the other nations, and its movement toward the ocean, which paper, I 
 think, will be of use to you in making your investigations. I think it 
 will contain many facts which you will be glad to get. How many 
 thousands of millions of bushels is it that you want to move, what is the 
 computation of this country, and what does it need to get that vast 
 product to the ocean ? That is your question, as I understand it. 
 
 There are abuses alleged in this State. Agriculture is compelled to 
 pay out of its earnings immense sums to pay for fictitious capital. They 
 allege that to be an abuse. When I arrived in Delaware County the 
 agricultural society addressed me a letter, signed by Judge Hathaway, 
 expatiating upon the abuse of having to contribute to pay interest upon 
 a capital invested in the Erie Eailroad of $110,000,000. They were 
 compelled out of their agricultural products to pay tolls to meet inter- 
 est on that expenditure, which they alleged to be fictitious. They 
 alleged that to be an abuse, to which I answered that the state of my 
 health would not allow me to go into an angry controversy upon such 
 an alleged abuse. If there was such an abuse, I told them, " your agri- 
 cultural society of Delaware County is the proper company to protect 
 
330 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 agriculture and to represent agriculture," and I left it to them as an 
 agricultural society to find and apply the remedy. I did not propose to 
 go into that myself. It is their function. They represent all the towns 
 in the county; they have taken it up with great avidity; they have 
 made it a subject of consideration. 
 
 I submitted to that agricultural society a portion of this topographical 
 report which I had made, a few sheets ; thereupon they have called an ad- 
 journed meeting for January, at which meeting they intend to take it 
 up for that great county and to invite the co-operation and simultane- 
 ous action of all the agricultural societies of this State, united in one 
 body to move as one man on this question. 
 
 That is the history of the organization. It is moving in that direc- 
 tion, so that you will have agriculture represented as a whole before 
 you. When that is done the Chamber of Commerce of New York, 
 which is the Chamber of Commerce, not of the city, but of the State of 
 New York — chartered by colonial act, and represents the whole State,, 
 has charge of the commerce of the whole State — that body, as such, 
 will again move with the agricultural societies, and they will be heard. 
 
 Those are to be the movements to be brought before your committee. 
 The hearing will be merely to hand you the papers. I wished to let you 
 know that these things were in progress. If you wish any verbal ex- 
 planations, I can make them. 
 
 I will say that the whole country will expect from this committee to 
 determine and ascertain what are the physical difficulties in this State 
 and the physical facilities. I wish you to find out what is the level of 
 Lake Erie above the ocean. How easy or difficult is it to get from that 
 lake level to the ocean level 1 What are the difficulties the Erie Railroad 
 meets in carrying these millions of tons from Lake Erie to the ocean? 
 It clambers over an undulating surface 1,600 feet above tide. What 
 has the Midland to do with it ? Those roads are the outlets from your 
 great western world to the Atlantic ; one of them almost a dead level 
 from the lake level to the ocean level. It seems to me that the fact 
 that New York has the level is a cardinal point in this examination. 
 First, New York stretches across the Union from ocean to lake ; sec- 
 ondly, it has this God-given level, this great facility, gravitating to 
 market down-hill, and the great question of unloading from the western 
 world to the ocean on an inclined p'lane. As a fact, between that and 
 Pennsylvania it is decisive. Having that wonderful facility by nature, 
 shall it be given over to private individuals ? Does it not belong to the 
 community ? Does it belong to any band of people 1 Is it not a sover- 
 eign power that the State and the nation ought to guard 1 Ought you 
 not, as national representatives, to see that that level is properly used to 
 abstract from it the best possible facility for the transportation of this 
 immense product of cereals and deliver it to the ocean, in the great com- 
 petition this country has with other nations for the feeding of the globe? 
 This is a question that has now become vital to the American people. 
 
 I am a friend of the Erie Eailroad. I emptied the first wheelbarrow- 
 load of earth on the Erie Eailroad, and spent a great portion of my life 
 in making it. I spent large sums of money out of my own pocket. I 
 made it ; I began it. I raised the subscription ; got the money together, 
 went to the State and got $3,000,000 loan entirely gratuitous, and I 
 never have been paid a cent in my life. I am, therefore, partial to the 
 Erie Eailroad. 1 was proud of it once ; I would be proud of it again if 
 it behaved well, but I see they say they have spent $110,000,000 in 
 making that road. I cannot believe it. The money has not all been 
 spent in emptying the wheelbarrow as I did. They have not spent 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 331 
 
 $110,000,000. I see the president has gone to London to borrow 
 $40,000,000 more of Bishop Shinier, or some such name, which is to added 
 to the $110,000,000, making $150,000,000, on which gigantic expense 
 the same agriculture and commerce have got to pay tolls enough to make 
 up the interest. I say that is a national abuse which, if true, this com- 
 mittee ought to correct. 
 
 The Chairman. In general terms, are we to find the solution of this 
 question of cheap transportation in improving water or railroad lines? 
 
 Mr. Euggles. Unfortunately, the water in our northern latitude is 
 liable to freeze, and although there is an ingenious gentleman offering 
 to put hot pipes in the canal, whence they will warm it, I think it will 
 freeze up. I spent a portion of my life in breaking the canal. The ice 
 is our deadly enemy five months in the year. The ice in Lake Brie 
 forms five months. I have seen the canal frozen up the 10th of Novem- 
 ber ; therefore, five months in the year there is an absolute embargo 
 What are you going to do with those thousands of millions of cereals 1 
 The cold is the great difficulty of the North. If we had the canals five 
 or six degrees of latitude further south it would be more convenient to 
 transportation. They will have to come to the railroad and carry 
 things by land. The question is of serious interest ; it is impossible to 
 leaveit out. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Could not the climate be found that was not subject to 
 such ice ? 
 
 Mr. Euggles. Our freedom is held by latitude 42. The parallel of 42 
 is a latitude of freedom, but water freezes north of 42. Along the line 
 of 42, a hundred miles each side, is the great belt of the temperate zone. 
 It is a choice portion of this continent. It cannot go down the Missis- 
 sippi. You may possibly get down through the South, but that is very 
 doubtful.' At any rate, we here in the temperate zone see nothing but 
 the Pennsylvania Eailroad, the Brie Eailroad, and the Erie Canal. We 
 see the great giants, the Central Eailway and the Erie Eailway, contend- 
 ing for the prize. Not to use an irreverent figure, we think we are 
 sometimes crucified between these gentlemen, too. I see Mr. Watson 
 says in his address to his stockholders that the Erie Eailroad is to be 
 managed in reference to the West. So it should be. 
 
 The Chairman. Have your investigations ever included the chargeson 
 water and rail in the different European countries? 
 
 Mr. Euggles. No, sir ; I have not looked into that. The charges are 
 generally higher in Europe than they are here. 
 
 I know that cheap transportation is the great secret of the age, and 
 that it has caused the wealth of modern nations. Cheap locomotion by 
 land and water is the whole cause of the rapid development. Europe 
 has developed more than this country because they have secured cheap 
 transportation. It is the great discovery of the nineteenth century to 
 navigate the land. It is for you to say whether we shall have the ben- 
 efit of cheap transportation, or whether it shall inure to the benefit of 
 Wall street. Shall the people of this great republic have the benefit of 
 that, or will you hand it over to such cattle, such beasts of prey, as 
 have it 1 
 
 The Chairman. What is your view as to how that is to be accom- 
 plished ? 
 
 Mr. Euggles. I am not wise enough to answer that. If we were a 
 united, consolidated Government, I think it would be very easy. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Take the matter as it stands, what do you say is the 
 true process, although you may not be prepared to indicate details I 
 What do you say, in general, about the remedy possible and the remedy 
 needed ? 
 
332 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Euggles. The question complicates itself with morals as well 
 as statistics; with the morals of the legislature, national and State. 
 There is a deep difficulty standing there. I saw soon after the erection 
 of the Erie Eailroad that it was too great a power to put into the hands 
 of any body of men, and I at once induced a friend of mine to introduce 
 a bill to make the Erie Canal a State work, which would have saved all 
 subsequent difficulty. It failed ; I was in advance of the age. They 
 did not think that would do ; they thought the State would mismanage 
 it as much as others, and the bill was defeated by a small majority. 
 Long ago in Austria they were taking back their grants to roads. They 
 said that the English were ruining themselves ; that they would take 
 all concessions back and manage by the state. And I think now that 
 the great trunk lines ought to be managed by the State. Corrupt as 
 may be the State legislature, still I think it is better than the unchecked 
 domination of a private company. Of the two evils, I prefer that the 
 State should manage it altogether; I am not sure that it is the best rem- 
 edy. If the State does not manage it, they should have some board 
 to check abuses. This State has reserved the right to modify all charters. 
 All the talk about vested rights is of no use f we have no legal impedi- 
 ments in our way ; we can brush away all the charters in five minutes. 
 All the charters in this State are liable to repeal at any moment. There 
 is no vested right at all. The State can resume the whole thing when- 
 ever they wish. They can appoint commissioners to regulate the 
 charges, and it is possible that a judiciously selected board of railroad 
 managers might be the remedy. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. There are vested rights which the State is at liberty 
 to resume in certain events and at certain times. 
 
 Mr. Euggles. It is provided that every corporate body of this State 
 is liable to have its charter abrogated, taken away, or repealed by the 
 legislature. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Tou seem to answer Senator Conkling's question in 
 its application to the State, and not in its amplication to the Govern- 
 ment or the country at large, so as to take in the scope of our investiga- 
 tion ; you but answer the question in that view. Discard, if you please, 
 that moral feature of getting honest legislators, what in that case would 
 you say was the proper remedy for the country at large to bring about 
 cheap transportation ? 
 
 Mr. Euggles. There are great advantages in asserting the power in 
 the whole country, and one is that you will be clear of the obstructions 
 made by small States, which interpose principally. Ehode Island might 
 stop the progress between Boston and New York. There is some great 
 advantage in the having of the assertion of a national authority. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. But suppose you cannot assert it constitutionally. 
 Take the case as it stands with all State rights and Federal rights recog- 
 nised, what remedy have you considered ? What would be a proper 
 remedy to be applied to give relief to the country in the way of cheap 
 transportation ? 
 
 Mr. Euggles. I have not considered that with the care and attention 
 that 1 ought, to make an answer to such a committee. I should feel un- 
 willing to risk a rash answer to a question of such exceeding gravity as 
 that. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Tou are not singular in that respect, sir; it is a ques- 
 tion that we have not had answered yet. 
 
 Mr. Euggles. There is no doubt at all about this. One thing is 
 physically possible, you see— and that is my reason for speaking of the 
 acclivities' — it is a certain physical fact that an inclined plane from Lake 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 333 
 
 Erie and the Hudson Eiver can be made, and you will have a facility for 
 transportation not equaled in the world. You can make a railway with 
 an inclined plane from Buffalo to Albany, so that you could unload the 
 whole western country. It is physically possible to unload all your 
 vast western world, with a sufficient number of tracks on an inclined 
 plane. I maintain that that is possible. 
 Mr. Davis. Have you estimated the miles of tunnel in doing that? 
 Mr. Euggles. It would require very little on the Central Road — very 
 little indeed, hardly any. I would avoid tunnels. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. As I understand your answer, then, the remedy you 
 would suggest would be by a number of railways from Lake Erie to the 
 sea-board 1 ? 
 
 Mr. Euggles. I think that the railways should occupy that inclined 
 plane. If you throw away that, you throw away everything. Under 
 some government or some authority that little piece of laud should be 
 availed of to its utmost capacity. On that route you reduce transportion 
 to its minimum. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Do you think that would accommodate all the prod- 
 uce of the West, taking the valley of the Mississippi ? 
 
 Mr. Euggles. When the question arose at the Hague as to whether 
 Eussia or the United States was to feed the world, or which nation was 
 to feed the world, I maintained that the United States and Eussia were 
 the great competitors, and then it became necessary to know how much 
 we had. We got the number of bushels in Europe and the number of 
 bushels in the United States. But that was only the growth in 1870. 
 Who can tell what will be the product of the interior in thirty years'? 
 It was just about 1,600,000,000 of bushels on this continent. Europe 
 produced about 4,500,000,000 — all the nations of Europe, I mean — of 
 which Eussia produced a very large amount, disclosing itself as the 
 great competitor of the United States. It soon became evident that 
 there were but two dramatis personw in this game — Eussia and the 
 United States. In England, rich in everything but that, they have to 
 stand still and be fed. Prance just feeds itself, and that is all. Holland 
 barely feeds itself. The great surplus-holding nations are Eussia and 
 the United States, and they are very much alike. Eussia has almost an 
 inclined plane from the great interior lands down to the navigable waters. 
 She has a more gentle incline than we have. She has the river Volga, 
 which is a better river than the Mississippi in some respects. And there 
 was the great comparison : which of those two were to feed the world 1 
 And that is the great question now. 
 
 But to return. We know this, that the United States did produce 
 say 1,500,000,000 of bushels of cereals, that being in 1869, my report 
 being dated in 1870. 
 
 By direction of the Secretary of State I corresponded all over the 
 globe and got the statistics of all the nations, to be able to speak accu- 
 rately. I think you will find the tables interesting. I hope the com- 
 mittee will discuss this great question of all, to wit, the power of the 
 United States to feed the world; and I think we, as citizens, have a 
 right to ask the committee to consider that subject. (To Mr. Norwood.) 
 You asked me whether the inclined plane that we possess in New York 
 is competent to unload any amount that the West can in the future pro- 
 duce. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. My inquiry was, whether you think that those lines 
 would accommodate all the produce of the West, including the Missis- 
 sippi basin, not only present but prospectively. 
 Mr. Euggles. Perhaps not the southern portion of the Mississippi 
 
334 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 basin, but all the northern portion. Perhaps it would be more moderate 
 to confine ourselves to the present century. I think down to the year 
 1900 we can do the work ; of beyond that I could not say. And in 1900 
 what a population you will have, and what will be the population you 
 will have to feed. Tou will find that Europe will increase very largely. 
 Europe is growing as well as the United States. We may not get over 
 75,000,000 of people of our own. 
 
 And there, again, is a thing to be considered : the reduced rate of our 
 increase of population. It is a serious fact, and rather a relieving fact. 
 We have been growing more rapidly than our welfare demands. We 
 cannot provide for so many people. The ratio of increase is much less 
 than it has been. Marriage is less productive. The cardinal fact stares 
 you in the face that the children of each marriage are less productive 
 than they were fifteen years ago. Mr. Walker has made some able 
 papers about that, and there is no doubt that we shall not grow as 
 rapidly as we have done. The number of children for each marriage is 
 diminishing; that is the long and short of it. France has long known 
 that. France produces hardly children enough to keep her account 
 good. We now have an agricultural population of 40,000,000 of pro- 
 ducers of cereals. What will that 40,000,000 be in 1900 ? Our enthusi- 
 asts say 100,000,000; but Mr. Walker, who has a very clear, good head, 
 has put it down to 75,000,000. But if 40,000,000 of people produce 
 1,500,000,000 of bushels of cereals, 80,000,000 of people would produce 
 3,000,000,000 of bushels of cereals. I mean to say that the 3,000,000,000 
 of bushels can be carried over those railroads. 
 
 One thing more is to be taken into consideration. The laws of trade 
 are about the best laws in the world, the great law of demand and sup- 
 ply. If you make railroads enough to allow them to compete, that may 
 be your remedy. 
 
 The committee adjourned. 
 
 New York, Friday, October 17, 1873. 
 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment. 
 
 Emerson Foote examined : 
 
 Mr. Chairman, I am one of the directors of the New York Steam Gable 
 Towing Company, and I am the principal owner of the stock in that 
 company. I own and control the stock of the company. 
 
 1 have been connected with it since the first experiment at Albany in 
 1871, and have since been the promoter of the enterprise by carrying 
 it forward to its various stages of development, until now we have it in 
 operation on the canal, as you have seen, between Buffalo and Lockport. 
 
 The Chairman. I will state that the committee have investigated 
 that subject somewhat. They have heard Mr. Faulkner as to the prin- 
 ciple of the process, and we also have examined it personally, and 
 therefore anything as to that, perhaps, would not be necessary ; but 
 anything else you can state that will inform the committee in reference 
 to what it has done, and its practical workings, we will be very glad to 
 hear. 
 
 Mr. Foote. The system has been in operation the past summer be- 
 tween Buffalo and Lockport, and we think we have demonstrated its 
 cheapness and its speed. We have done such business as was offered to 
 us and have done it at such rates as the boatmen would pay to us. Those 
 rates have been the rates of horse-power, and added to it we have re- 
 ceived what they were willing to pay for being towed in that strong cur- 
 rent at Buffalo, which involves an extra expense to them. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 335 
 
 Although we have not made our full expenses this summer we have 
 done what business we could, and until we can equip the whole portion 
 of that canal so that the boatmen can make their through rates from 
 Albany to Buffalo, we cannot expect to do all the business. We have 
 done enough, however, to show the economy of the practical working 
 of the system. I have here some lists prepared, showing the earnings 
 of the tow-boat M. M. Caleb for the week ending August 23, for August 
 24 to 30 inclusive, and for the week commencing September 1 and end- 
 ing September 6. In that statement the Caleb did most of her busi- 
 ness from Tonawanda to Buffalo against the current, which varies, as 
 you know, from nothing to four or five miles to the hour. The distance 
 is twelve miles. We have towed against this current various tows at a 
 speed averaging three miles to the hour. On the 18th of August we 
 towed four boats with an aggregate tonnage of 550 tons. 
 
 The Chairman. Four boats in one tow ? 
 
 Mr. Foote. Yes, sir. The receipts were $20.60. The expenses that 
 we were under were $21 for all day. The names of the boats on this 
 statement are here for reference. On the 19th we took five boats, ag- 
 gregating 600 tons, and received $20.80, at an expense of $21. On the 
 20th I took three boats, 450 tons, receiving $17 ; expense $21. 
 
 The Chairman. You took those against the current ? 
 
 Mr. Foote. Yes, sir ; everything is done against the current. 
 
 On the 21st we took four boats, 600 tons, receiving $23, at an ex- 
 pense of $21. On the 22d we took six boats with 1,000 tons, receiving 
 $37, at an expense of $21. On the 23d we took three boats, 450 tons ; 
 received $18, at an expense of $21 ; making the number of boats towed 
 25 ; aggregate tonnage, 3,750 tons ; and my total receipts were $137.40, 
 and expenses $126. 
 
 On the 24th of August we took six boats with 1,050 tons ; received $35, 
 and expended $21. On the 28th we took 660 tons ; received $24 ; ex- 
 penses $21. On the 29th we took from Lockport five boats; 850 tons; 
 received $34 ; expenses $21. On the 30th we took four boats, 500 tons, 
 receiving $24 ; making for those four days nineteen boats, 3,260 tons 
 carried, receiving $117 and expending $84. The average tonnage per 
 day was 701 tons. 
 
 September 1 to 6. — From Tonawanda to Buffalo we took four boats on 
 the 1st; 600 tons; received $24; expenses $21. On the 2d we took 
 three boats ; 600 tons ; receipts $21 ; expenses $21. On the 3d my 
 man writes : " This is the heaviest tow for the cable, and I think the 
 heaviest tow ever towed up the rapids at Black Bock. With current 
 fully three miles per hour, this tow was towed two and a half miles per 
 hour, and was equal to towing twenty-five boats down stream." That 
 day we took seven boats ; the aggregate tonnage was 1,284 tons ; received 
 $37, expending $21. On the 24th we took three boats, 600 tons, re- 
 ceiving $21 ; expenses $21. On the 5th we took four boats, 550 tons, 
 receiving $23, expending $21. On the 6th we took six boats, 1,150 
 tons, receiving $40, at an expense of $21 ; making for the six days an 
 average total of 797 tons per day, and a total tonnage of 4,784 tons ; 
 receiving $166, and expending $126. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What distance do you take them ? 
 
 Mr. Foote. Twelve miles, it is called, from Tonawanda to Buffalo. 
 This boat stood there ready to take anything they could get. The daily 
 expense is for the whole day, whereas the boat was only employed four 
 hours to do that work. We have at other times, exceptionally, during 
 the summer taken very large tows, one of which amounted to 1,376 tons. 
 I think there were eight boats. • We have also taken one of about 1,300 
 
336 TRANSPORTATION TO THE- SEABOARD. 
 
 tons. Those are our largest towages. Last year we took : against ; that 
 current one tow of nine boats, but they were sma }*« ^ J^ **.«* 
 fore, the aggregate tonnage was not equal to what we have carried tins 
 
 y6 Mr. Davis. You confine yourself between looks, do you t 
 
 Mr! Foote. We do not go through locks. We can go through the 
 locks. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Have you ever done it 1 
 
 Mr Foote Yes, sir. In our first experiment between Albany and 
 Trov we started in the basin at Albany and went through the locks at 
 Albany. I refer you to the report of Hon. Samuel B. Buggies to the 
 Chamber of Commerce, who represented that body in that experiment. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Why do you not go through the locks and make the tow 
 
 right along 1 ? 
 Mr. Foote. Because it is not necessary, and it might consume a little 
 
 time to do it. 
 
 J Mr. Davis. Do I understand you that it is not necessary for the boats 
 
 to go through the locks ? 
 
 Mr. Foote. 1 am speaking about our towers. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Why not ? 
 
 Mr. Foote. Let me explain. We intend to run the levels, of which 
 there are nine, as set forth in our pamphlet. The first one from Buffalo 
 to Lockport, thirty-one miles ; the second, from Lockport to Bochester, 
 sixty-five miles. Our present effort is to equip those two levels, a dis- 
 tance of ninety-five miles. We shall have six towers stationed on the 
 level going through the little lift lock, I think they have there, which 
 we would find no difficulty in doing, between Buffalo and Lockport. 
 We shall have from day to day tugs to do the distance between the last 
 lock at Lockport and the first one at Bochester. 
 
 Mr. Davis. My question did not lead to all the details. I only wished 
 to know why you did not go through the locks, and if it was intended 
 to confine yourself between them. 
 
 Mr. Foote. Because the tows are carried through by the State, and 
 there is no necessity of our taking them through. We deliver and re- 
 ceive at locks. We can go through and have done so. All our boats 
 will be taken from here there, but our intention is to do like a railroad 
 train, which is the best illustration of our system. Our tower is a loco- 
 motive, the canal-boats are the freight-cars, and we take a tow of canal- 
 boats as the locomotive takes the train of freight-cars, and run to a cer- 
 tain distance, when a fresh locomotive takes it and carries it through; 
 and, as all canal-boats are taken through the locks by the State, I do not 
 think it necessary for us to put our boats through, though we can if it 
 should be deemed best to do so. We lay the cable then right through 
 the locks and just work that distance. 
 
 One report which I gave of a day's work was one which Mr. Green, 
 the engineer of the State commission, had done for a test. I presume 
 Mr. Faulkner told you that we are not allowed to compete for the State 
 bounty. We are excluded. The Belgian system which we operate is 
 excluded by amendment. A joint resolution was passed through the 
 legislature a year ago I think, the last session, requesting the commit- 
 tee appointed under the hundred thousand dollar prize act to examine 
 and report this system. Mr. Green, who is the engineer of that com- 
 mittee, did not know of it until I sent him a printed copy, whereupon 
 he went to Buffalo, and after his return wrote to our general superin- 
 tendent, Madison M. Caleb, of the Western Transportation Company of 
 this city, a report. In that report he gives a full account of his work- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 337 
 
 rings. I can read the same if yon would like to hear it. There are some 
 .points in it which I would like to present, bearing upon the cheapness 
 of this system, what Mr. Green says about it, and showing his views of 
 it. 
 
 Tkoy, September 8, 1873. 
 
 Dear Sir : Having been requested by Mr. Emerson Foote, one of the trustees of the 
 " New York Steam Cable Towing Company," to make a personal examination of the 
 .Belgian system of towing, now in operation upon the ETie Canal, between the cities of 
 Buffalo anil Lockport, 1 proceeded to Buffalo on the ovening of the 2£>th of August, 
 arriving at Buffalo on the morning of the 26th. 
 
 Upon my arrival I found the tug Clinton absent, and the tug Caleb undergoing re- 
 pairs, rendered necessary by an attempt made during the Sunday previous to haul off: 
 a boat which was found hard aground in the canal, east of Buffalo. 
 
 Ou the morning of the 28th of August, the repairs of the Caleb having been com- 
 pleted, I joined her and proceeded, light, to Tonawanda, twelve miles, at a speed of six 
 to seven and a half miles per hour. 
 
 At 9.45 a. m. we left Tonawanda with three boats, carrying an aggregate of 600 tons 
 of cargo, in tow, bound for Buffalo. One mile below Black Rock the Caleb passed a 
 boat laden with 100 tons, and towed by four horses, in 45 seconds. At 12.30 p. m. 
 arrived at Black Rock lock, having made the run 'of eight miles in 2 hours and 45 
 minutes, and at an average speed of 2.91 miles per hour. 
 
 During the runs the speeds varied from 2ft to 3-,^ miles per hour. No difficulty 
 whatever was experienced between these points. Before passing the lock at Black 
 Rock, a fourth boat, carrying 100 tons, was taken in tow, and at 12.50 the tow again 
 started. At 1.15 the last boat of the tow had passed the lock. 
 
 Time of passing the lock, 25 minutes ; or six minutes per boat, including the tug. 
 Arrived at Genesee street bridge at 3.25 p. m., having made the run from Black Rock 
 to Buffalo in 2 hours and 10 minutes, with speeds rangiDg from 1-ri to 3 miles per hour. 
 
 Upon this part of the canal the current was found to vary from 1£ to 3 miles per 
 hour. The minimum speed was of course made against the three-mile current. 
 
 During the run from Tonawanda to Buffalo, the power expended varied from about 
 35 to 43J horses, all of which, except that which was expended in overcoming the fric- 
 tion of the machinery, was utilized in towing. 
 
 At 4.30 p.m. the Caleb left Buffalo, light, and proceeded to Tonawanda, where wo 
 arrived at (i.50 p. m. Deducting the detention at Black Rock lock (7 minutes) the ave- 
 rage speed w;is six miles per hour ; but nine and a half miles was made with perfect 
 fuse during the run. 
 
 During 12 hours aud 18 minutes, including all stops and detentions, the Caleb ran 
 thirty-six miles; towing 6U0 tons'of cargo eight miles, aud 700 tons four miles, equiva- 
 lent to towing 200 tons thirty-eight miles at a speed of three miles per hour, against- 
 a rapid current, besides running twenty-four miles without a tow, and with an expen-i 
 diture of power which, at the maximum, was only slightly greater than that required; 
 to give our best steam canal-boats a speed of three miles in the ordinary canal and 
 against the ordinary current of half to three and a quarter miles per hour. 
 
 On the morning of the 29th the trip was continued to Lockport. 
 
 Left Tonawanda at 5.20 a. m., and reached Lockport at 8.50. Time, 3 hours and 30 
 minutes ; distance nineteen miles ; average speed, 5.43 miles per hour, including deten- 
 tions. 
 
 At 10.25 a. m. left Lockport on return trip, light, and reached Pendleton, seven miles, 
 at 11.45 a. m. 
 
 At 12.30 had used 450 pounds coal in running about 11 miles, or abont 41 pounds per 
 mile. At this point took a boat in tow carrying about 100 tons, and arrived at Tona- 
 wanda at 3.10 p. m., having made an average speed of 3.46 miles per hour, including 
 detentions due to breaking hawser and fouling cable in Tonawanda Creek. The coal 
 consumption for nineteen miles was 800 pounds, or at the rate of 42 pounds per mile. 
 
 At Tonawanda four 200-ton boats were taken in tow, making in aU abont 900 tons. 
 Left Tonawanda at 3.45 p. m., and reached Black Rock, eight miles, at 7.20 p. m. Time, 
 3 hours and 35 minutes, with an expenditure of 1,100 pounds of coal between Tona- 
 wanda and Black Rock. Here the coal consumption was 137 i pounds per mile, or abont 
 30^ pounds per 200-ton boat per mile, against a strong current. 
 
 At this point I left the Caleb; the tow, however, proceeded to Buffalo, arriving there - 
 the same evening. 
 
 Before witnessing the operation of this system of towing, I was well aware that, so 
 far as the efficient application of power is concerned, no other mode of towing or of 
 steam propulsion can ever hope to compete with it. My impression was, however, that 
 very serious difficulty would be experienced in traversing the curves of the canal, and 
 that the passage of the looks would be attended by considerable difficulty and unavoid- 
 able delay. 
 
 22 t S 
 
338 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A personal examination, how ever, of the practical working of the system has, in. 
 some degree, modified these early impressions, so far as relates to the difficulties to be 
 overcomp. 
 
 As regards the economical application of the power, my opinions are, of course, un- 
 changed. 
 
 As to the curves of the canal, I am now of the opinion that they may he traversed 
 by this system without material difficulty or inconvenience. 
 
 In the matter of passing the locks, however, I am still of the opinion that there 
 may be more or less of vexatious delay ; and, yet, experience may demonstrate that 
 this delay will not be greater, per boat, than it now is. Much will, of course, depend 
 upon the arrangements made for insuring a speedy passage of the locks, and very- 
 likely it may happen that a tow of five boats, together with the tug, may be locked in 
 thirty minutes, or five minutes per boat. 
 
 I am also of the opinion that a decided improvement may be in the disposition of the 
 machinery in the tugs, and that it may be well for your company to carefully consider, 
 before laying the balance of the cable, whether it may not be better to lay it from lock 
 to lock, rather than to attempt to lay a continuous line from Buffalo to Albany. Such 
 an arrangement, it seems to me now, might enable you the more effectively to manage 
 the " slack " which must exist to a greater or less extent, and which must vary with 
 the number of tugs in operation. 
 
 In conclusion, I have to say that, from the examination which I have been able to 
 make, I am of the opinion that the cable system may be made an economical, efficient, 
 and profitable means of towing upon the Erie Canal. 
 
 The loss of time at the locks will be partly, and perhaps wholly, made up in the in- 
 creased speed between locks, leaving the saving in the application of the power a 
 clear gain over other modes of propulsion. 
 
 It is to be understood, of course, that this is merely an expression of my impressions, 
 formed after witnessing the performances of the Caleb between Buffalo and Lockport, 
 without, however, having had sufficient time to carefully study all the questions in- 
 volved. Such a study might remove all doubts, or it might strengthen my earlier 
 impression's, especially as to the question of lockage and as to the ultimate economy 
 of the system as a whole. 
 
 I am, sir, very respectfully, 
 
 D. M. GREENE. 
 
 Madison M. Caleb, Esq., 
 
 Central Superintendent Xew York Steam Cable Tmring Company. 
 
 The report of Mr. Greene is dated Troy, September 8, 1873, and it came 
 entirely unsolicited. Mr. Greene asking what we wished in the matter, 
 I told him that I desired him to go there and see for himself. This bears 
 upon the points of cheapness, of speed, and shows what we have done. 
 This is really since you, gentlemen, witnessed the operation. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you made any computation as to the relative 
 ■economy of the two systems, cable and horse power i 
 
 Mr. Foote. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you state the result — the expense of each ? 
 
 Mr. Foote. I can. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What coal do you use ? 
 
 Mr. Foote. The coal that my men bought in Buffalo. I believe it is 
 Blossburg coal. I do not know what coal he does use. Ordinary coal. 
 You, perhaps, are aware that the machinery of this Caleb is duplicated 
 from machinery that we bought in Europe, and we have adopted that 
 same machinery. 
 
 Mr. Davis. You use soft coal, do you, or hard % It makes a difference 
 iin the number of pounds you use. 
 
 Mr. Foote. Well, sir, I am not practical in matters of machinery, and 
 I do not know and I could not tell you whether it was soft or hard, but 
 it is what is generally used, and the same as all the tugs there use and 
 have been using. I have here something that will indirectly give that 
 information— a list of the arrivals and clearances at the port of Buffalo 
 for a number of days, commencing with August 26 and extending to 
 October 1. I have here also other extracts from the Buffalo papers since 
 that date, which I have not added to this list ; but I find that the aver- 
 age number of boats daily to and from Buffalo is 109. We expect, to 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 339 
 
 charge no more than horse-towing rates paid to horse-towing companies ; 
 that is, 30 cents a mile. Therefore, we take a boat from Buffalo to Eo- 
 chester, ninety-five miles, for 30 cents a mile, which is $28.50. 
 
 Mr. Davis. How many tons in a boat f 
 
 Mr. Foote. Whatever there happens to be, no matter what is in it. 
 It can be towed better that way, because we have the current with us 
 toward Rochester and back again. We take anything. 
 
 That is one point that has made this system recently very popular 
 with all persons who own canal-boats and do business there. Mr. McGee 
 has seen us in reference to making arrangements for taking his corn from 
 a point where he reaches the canal to Buffalo, by which he gets a full 
 load instead of taking 100 tons, which is all they will allow a boat to 
 take westward, no matter what its tonnage is. He says that he can get 
 a full boat by our system at the same cost of 100 tons. 
 
 I am not acquainted with the country up there, and I never have seen 
 the system worked myself. Therefore, I speak from the information got 
 from my agents, and from Mr. Caleb and the other gentlemen there. 
 
 I understand, starting from Watkins to the west are a number of stone- 
 boats which require six and eight horses to pull them against this cur- 
 rent to Buffalo. We will take them with 240 tons — enough of them to 
 aggregate 1,000 or 1,500 tons — against that current. I can buy machin- 
 ery in England guaranteed to take 2,000 tons four miles an hour against 
 the usual current, coming this way. 
 
 Now we will say instead of 109 boats there are 100 boats doing the 
 whole business on the canal between Buffalo and Bochester, or back 
 again. Our daily receipts will be, atitowing rates, 30 cents a mile, and 
 that rate is 5 cents lower than usual?! I take it at the summer rates. 
 We shall have $2,850 daily receipts. Our total expense is the running 
 of 17 of our towers. They have been run here a portion of a day — say 
 three-quarters of the day — for $21. Our superintendent says that he wiil 
 he able to run the boats twenty-four hours for $35 each. That is $595 
 daily expense against daily receipts of $2,850, leaving $2,255 daily 
 profits ; or, for two hundred days, $451,000. 
 
 Now, it is the intention of the company to charge horse-rates, but the 
 advantages are so great to the owners of canal-boats towed, by reason 
 of increased speed and the saving of sonio expense of men and of the 
 horses, that they will be able to get either three- times their annual in- 
 come from one boat, or can divide that, in the ordinary course of com- 
 petition, with the transporters, or let it apply on the freight that comes 
 over the canal. 
 
 Again, the greater the speed the less our expense, and the greater the 
 speed the greater is the present capacity of the canal department. 
 
 The present State toll-sheet is about $3,000,000. The State, then, can 
 either receive, by the simple introduction of this speed, three times its 
 present toll-sheet, which would be $9,000,000 in a season of two hun- 
 dred days, or it can reduce its tolls one-third of the present amount, 
 which, on a bushel of wheat, is 3^^ of a cent, I think. 
 
 In other words, given, either take the $6,000,000- and retire the canal 
 debt, indirectly giving the benefit to cheap transportation in two years 
 time, or else, given, $6,000,000 annually by the introduction of this sys- 
 tem to the benefit of cheap transportation. That 'is two cents a bushel 
 on wheat simply by the increase of the speed up to four miles and a 
 half an hour. We have made that speed with large tows. Coming 
 this way with the heaviest tows, there is no doubt but what we can run 
 (or at least that it is possible) five miles to the hour. When we have 
 our boats running the levels, as we shall have all the way through, so 
 
340 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 long as our daily expense for that boat is $35, and we calculate that to 
 be our expense,' we do not care whetber it carries one boat or six at a 
 tow, but it does tbe business. And we know on these facts the number 
 of boats going through. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What is the ordinary speed of horses f 
 
 Mr. Foote. One mile and a half the hour ; in that neighborhood. 
 
 The Chairman. I understand your answer as to the difference of ex- 
 pense, that there is no difference in the expense of towage, but the sav- 
 ing is in the increased amount and the increased power of the canaL 
 
 Mr. Foote. I show you bere that I can make a profit of $450,000 in 
 200 days, charging tbe lowest cost of horse-power. I can reduce that 
 profit as much as I choose, and if I take it all off it will bring that rate 
 very much less. Taking the distance from Buffalo to Troy, and taking 
 horse rates at 35 cents a mile, and calling it three hundred and fifty 
 miles, whicb I believe is the correct distance, it costs 61 cents a ton, 
 saying each boat averages 1200 tons, to take a ton from Buffalo to Troy. 
 
 The Chairman. By horse-power 1 ? 
 
 Mr. Foote. By horse- power. Now take the same distance, three hun- 
 dred and fifty miles, and taking my tower that goes three miles and a 
 half the hour, and it takes me 100 hours to go from Buffalo to Troy if I 
 have no detention — four days and four hours. I allow enough for deten- 
 tion to bring that up to six days. The less days I do it, the cheaper I 
 do it. That running my boat at $40 a day instead of $35 is $240, my 
 total expense of running my tower from Buffalo to Troy. Now I can get 
 engines that will pull 2,000 tons, whicb makes twelve cents a ton ; so 
 that the difference, making those, great allowances — and my facts show 
 that I am running better than that — is in favor of my system, 49 cents 
 a ton ; or, taking a ton of wheat, the transportation or towing charges 
 are 12 cents a ton as against 61 cents by horse-power. I do not know 
 how many bushels of wheat there are in the ton. 
 
 The Chairman. Thirty-three and a third. 
 
 Mr. Foote. Well, you see I take 33 bushels of wheat from Buffalo to 
 Troy for 12, cents, simply cost of transportation. I mean, of course, ap- 
 plication of power. 
 
 The Chairman. One other question. What guarantee has the public 
 that when you have your cable-tow laid through tbe entire length of the 
 canal, and thus the towage is placed in the control of a single company, 
 that the price will not be increased above that of horse-power? In 
 other words, the difference between a monopoly and everbody being 
 able to put a horse on. 
 
 Mr. Foote. I did not want to say anything about this; but I need not 
 tell you, you can see from my remarks that this is a hobby of mine, and 
 I have the control of this company. I can keep that control. I am 
 going to do so, aud you can bear me witness, all of you gentlemen here, 
 for it. I am going to keep that control for the purpose of making this 
 thing not only a good paying concern, but popular with the people, 
 with the canal-men, and to give cheap food to the world ; to help the 
 city and State of New York. I can do that. And again, too, I see that 
 there is going to be no necessity for a long time for us to reduce our 
 charges, for the reason that the benefits to the outside public and to 
 canal-boat owners are so great that in the ordiuary course of transpor- 
 tation and by paying them at least a hundred per cent, more income 
 than they get now, they can be benefited, and those rates will be all 
 that the people will demand of us. 
 
 Again, those rates are going to be still further reduced when the State 
 will take the locks and will apply modern approved inventions to pass- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 341 
 
 ing boats through those locks. For instance, the State statistics show 
 that the lockage at Alexander's locks, when they made a test, there, 
 amounted to four minutes for each boat. Mr. Young, the manager of 
 theDelaware aud Hudson Canal Company, a private corporation, told me 
 that he could lock by the drop-lock that they have upon that canal ins 
 two minutes' time. Now, that means this — that the present tonnage of 
 the canal, the whole canal, was last year 6,070,000 tons. Three times 
 the speed, three times the capacity on four-minute lockages. On two- 
 minute lockages it again doubles the capacity. Now, the more business 
 done on the canal the more tons can be lowered, and the State receive 
 the same amount as at present. You see now how the advantage to the 
 State bears on the reduction of the cost of transportation. 
 
 I said before that the owner of the canal-boat makes now only seven 
 round trips, making, according to figures that 1 have of a man who 
 owned the boats, and not allowing for loss of horses by drowning, $124 
 each trip. In other words, he makes about $900 income from one boat. 
 With my system he makes $2,700 income, and he can afford to give one- 
 third of that amount in favor of cheap rates. He saves the expense of 
 his labor; he saves all risk of horse-fleshy and, again, when we can get 
 the present style of canal-boats, and I can change this system to run by 
 the ton and not by the boat, which I now have to do, then boats of 
 uniform size, of models for speed and strength, can be brought there, 
 and an increase of speed will come from it whichj in turn, as I have 
 shown before, cheapens the transportation. 
 
 The Chairman. I have always understood that the capacity of a canal 
 was measured by the number of boats that could pass through a single 
 lock. Does not this increased capacity depend entirely on the change 
 of locks rather than upon your process? 
 
 Mr. Foote. The capacity of the lock has been shown, by boats kept 
 aud collected for that purpose, that the lock might have full employ- 
 ment, to be four minutes. Now the State engineer's report shows that 
 if every boat could be locked through in four minutes, the present 
 capacity of the canal is 12,000,000 tons on single locks and 18,000,000 
 on double locks. So that, of course, if the lockage can be increased to 
 two minutes, you could double the tonnage through. I do not think 
 that it is the capacity of the present canal that is at fault. It is the 
 trouble in its present condition, and in its being behind the time in 
 modern improvements. There is no steam applied to open and shut a 
 gate. Steam has never been applied by the State for the purpose of 
 doing this lockage as is done upon a private canal like the Delaware and 
 Hudson Canal. 
 
 Again, we have to draw through mud. In the report of the Hon. 
 Samuel B. Euggles, of that exhibition that he witnessed, he says that 
 the boats were drawn through mud a foot deep, and so it is on the canal 
 in a good many places. If that mud is removed, and the canal, at the 
 present time, is put in proper shape, as prescribed by law, I think 
 that there is tonnage enough there to go very far toward solving this 
 question of transportation without any further changes. Of course this 
 does away with horse-power. Another epizootic might stop the whole 
 canal business for a week or two. It brings it in. the control, by our 
 plan, of one company, and the intention and. the policy of the company 
 are just as I have stated. 
 
 The Chairman. Perhaps your policy might change when you get the 
 entire control of it and the horses were all off. That is, you gentlemen 
 who had the good intentions might pass away, and somebody who was 
 not so good might take charge of it? 
 
3-12 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Foote. Of course, sir, 1 can only speak for myself, but that 
 applies to almost everything. We have no competition with these other 
 people; that is, we do not oppose any in this new scheme of steam- 
 power or of the present system. The canal-boat men who have been 
 towed by this system have been coming in here almost daily and with- 
 out exception. I will not say without exception, but except very few, 
 they are all in flavor of it. Why, they say, "we would rather pay you 
 50 cents a mile and be towed by you, because we get three times our in- 
 come ; " and again they say, " we can get rid of our horses ; we can lay in 
 Buffalo until we get 'our own freights for our goods, and not have to 
 accept lower rates for fear that the expense of our horses would be too 
 much for us." 
 
 The Chairman. That is rather against you, so far as cheap transpor- 
 tation is concerned? 
 
 Mr. Foote. I do not know whether it is against or for me. I give 
 the statements just as they are. 
 
 But again, the persons who oppose us most are the staple owners. I 
 hope that we have not any severe opposition from any one. We intend 
 to work in that way for the benefit of the people and for cheap trans- 
 portation, and I do not know of anything that is more practicable. 
 
 This is no experiment, as you will understand. Since Mr. Faulkner 
 has seen you I have received the report of two hundred and fifty miles 
 of this system recently gone into, operation on the Ehine by a company 
 .called the Bhinish Towing Company, and they calculate to do that work 
 there, and are doing it satisfactorily. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Can you give us the relative cost directly between rail 
 and your system ? 
 
 Mr. Foote. I could only make this one statement which you perhaps 
 have seen. In Francis T. Walker's report of the Producfe Exchange he 
 gives a statement based on the New York Central Bailroad, and shows 
 that if the New York Central Bailroad charge the same tariff the year 
 round which it does in summer, the road could not pay dividends upon 
 its stock. Now, I believe that with this system of mine in operation 
 that summer rate will have to be reduced so much to compete with the 
 tonnage of the canal, not only in its present freight, but a great deal of 
 freight that will be brought back by the increase of speed, which will 
 pe nearly up to that they claim freight trains can run. I believe that 
 that tariff will be so much reduced that the New York Central Bailroad 
 cannot in winter-time put its rates high enough to make up the average. 
 
 Mr. Davis. You have not a direct answer as to what is the relative 
 cost? 
 
 Mr. Foote. I have not, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. And the pamphlet to which you refer does not give a 
 direct answer as to the relative cost between water and rail ? 
 *>Mr. Foote. Yes, sir, the New York Produce Exchange Beport, which 
 is publishing, gives it. 
 
 Office of the New York Steam Cable Towing Company, 
 
 Ao. 40 Broadway, P. 0. Box 5241, A T ew Tork, September 10, 1873. 
 Dear Sir : It is with grant satisfaction that I observe an earnest and constantly in- 
 creasing interest in all efforts and schemes which are not only demanded by the neces- 
 sities of trade and commerce, but which are calculated to promote public interests and 
 to benefit all classes of society. 
 
 ^ In this connection my attention has been called to a circular issued by your commit- 
 tee on the subject of transportation — a subject of vast and general interest and of pri- 
 mary importance to the merchants and business men of the city of New YorTi. 
 
 The city of New York has enjoyed the monopoly of the western trade so continu- 
 ously and long that its merchants and real-estate owners were becoming either wholly 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 343 
 
 indifferent to the subject, or over-confident in tbe erroneous conclusion (bat, because 
 the capital of tbe country flowed towards the city of New York ; therefore trade and 
 business would naturally follow in the wake of money and find the same common 
 -center. Tbe reverse is the fact. Trade will seek the cheapest outlets, and money will 
 follow trade. How important then to every business man, every community, and every 
 governroeut becomes tbe subject of cheap transportation! Under our system of gov- 
 ernment individual enterprise must in tbe main solve the great questions connected 
 with tbe employment of capital and labor. The control of such interests by the state 
 is not only inadequate and inefficient, but productive of positive burdens and evils, 
 which can only be effectually remedied and removed by the employment of individual 
 capital aDd enterprise. 
 
 Look, for instance, at the management of our State canals by either political party. 
 Incompetency and inefficiency pervaded the whole system, and were we to apply that 
 management which tbe State provides for one of its most important interests to any 
 of our great trunk lines of railroad, we venture the assertion 'that bankruptcy would 
 be the inevitable and speedy result. 
 
 Again, the capacity of our canals bears no reasonable proportion to the expense inci- 
 dent to their maintenance. 
 
 If, however, the new constitution that has been acted upon by the last legislature 
 shall receive the approval of the next legislature and tbe sanction of tbe people, it is 
 believed that the radical changes that will then take place in tbe management of the 
 canals will materially lessen the cost of their maintenance and nearly double their 
 capacity. 
 
 I notice that your committee advocates a ship-canal, with a view, I presume, of en- 
 abling the steam-propellers that load at the lake ports to come with their cargoes to 
 the city of New York without breaking bulk. 
 
 Permit me, gentlemen, to suggest that this scheme is neither practicable nor would 
 it cheapen transportation. Tbe lake vessels are necessarily constructed for heavy sea 
 and deep water, and in approaching and navigating a ship-canal their movements 
 would be so retarded that the cost of navigation would at once prohibit their use. In 
 illustration of this point I refer you to the Welland Canal, twenty-seven or twenty- 
 eight miles in length, now navigated by lake-propellers. You will find that the aver- 
 age time required to run this distance is twenty-four hours, with Lake Erie as a feeder, 
 abundance of water, efficient management and good locks, qualities and characteristics 
 in which our State canals are notably deficient. 
 
 It is generally conceded, that for cheapness, no mode for transportation can compete 
 with a water route ; and if, by any suggestion, mention, or experiment, we can mate- 
 rially reduce tbe time without increasing the cost, we have taken an advanced step in 
 the progress and development of cheap transportation. 
 
 At present the models of our canal-boats seem expressly designed to prevent speed 
 and to compel the employment of all the horse-power available. The boats should be 
 constructed on an easy model. Locks and gates should be improved so that locking 
 can be done in less than half the time now occupied. The management of the canals 
 should command tbe closest care and attention, and the people of this city should 
 'especially take up the subject of canal transportation in earnest, with the view of 
 securing, through the cheapness of transportation, the trade of the great West, and 
 keeping it. 
 
 In conclusion, permit me, gentlemen, to add a few words with regard to the system 
 of towing, which should recommend itself for adoption on the caDals of this State. 
 
 Horse-power must be displaced by steam ; and this is now done practically, profit- 
 ably, with an increase of speed double that by horse-power, and a certainty of delivery. 
 The Belgian system of towing, by means of submerged chains and cables, has been in 
 operation for several months on the Erie Canal, between Buffalo and Lockport. Daily 
 tows averaging seven hundred tons have been carried at a speed of at least three miles 
 per hour, against the very strong current at Black Rock and in Tonawanda Creek. 
 The receipts have been more than the expenses. The working of this system can be 
 witnessed daily. It has elicited universal approbation from all, and has so successfully 
 met every requirement of speed, economy and profit, as to more than justify the state- 
 ment, that " steam on tbe canals" is an accomplished fact. Upon the results already 
 ■obtained by the actual working, the following statements can be based. When the 
 Erie Canal between Buffalo and Troy is fully equipped with the necessary towers and 
 cable required in operating the Belgian system, the following great advantages over 
 the present system will be realized : The time between Buffalo and Troy will be re- 
 duced to four days; the capital employed in canal transportation will be turned three 
 times as often, the owners of canal-boats will receive three times the present amount 
 of profits, the canal for tbe first time will be worked to its full capacity, (estimated by 
 the State engineers at 18,000,000 tons,) and the State will either receive three times 
 the amount at the present rates of tolls, which would pay off the State canal debt in 
 two years, or reduce the tolls to one-third what they are now, and thus give, say, five 
 millions each season to promote cheap transportation. 
 
344 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Can equal advantages be so quickly obtained in any other manner than by the com- 
 plete equipment of the Erie Canal with the Belgian system, and thus fully utilize tbe. 
 greatest, cheapest, most reliable artificial means of transportation in the world, and 
 secure to New York City the permanent benefits to be deriyed from the cheapest form. 
 of inland transportation ? 
 Respectfully, yours, 
 
 M. M. CALEB. 
 B. B. Sherman, Esq., 
 
 Chairman Merchants' Committee on Cheap Transportation. 
 
 Benjamin P. Baker, chairman of the committee on terminal facilities,, 
 examined : 
 
 Mr. Chairman, our secretary informed me your committee desired 
 information on our terminal facilities. So much has been said in regard) 
 to their being inadequate that it is likely it may have been inferred that 
 our facilities were much inferior to what they are in fact now, to say 
 nothing about the improvements in process of construction or in con- 
 templation. 
 
 The subject of terminal facilities is a broad one, and embraces the 
 storage and handling of all merchandise and produce arriving at or de- 
 parting from this port. 
 
 Mr. Carlos Cobb, representing the Produce Exchange, who is also a 
 member of this transportation association, has given you information 
 in regard to the present manner of handling grain, and spoken of the 
 desirability of having elevators constructed at the termini of each rail- 
 way centering here to receive and store grain direct from the cars free 
 for a given period, of sufficient capacity to store the receipts of seven 
 days, which I fully indorse. 
 
 The grain warehouses on Long Island are fully sufficient to handle 
 and store all the grain arriving by canal, or that will arrive by canal, 
 should we succeed in increasing its capacity 100 per cent., and they are 
 well managed by competent and honorable men; Perhaps they could 
 hardly be excelled for location and adaptability for the purpose of taking 
 grain from canal-boats or lighters, and delivery to ships lying alongside 
 them. They can unload a canal-boat containing 8,000 bushels in three 
 hours and load the same amount in a ship in less time. 
 
 Mr. Cobb referred to the lighterage system, and the necessity of 
 "bulking" or consolidating small lots by having elevators at the rail- 
 way termini, and the adoption of the "graded" system on grain that is 
 to remain in store. 
 
 Fort Wayne sends to Toledo and Detroit wheat on account of the 
 want of these facilities here to get the advantage of free lighterage by 
 consolidating lots. They send one car to Toledo and it is sold in a lot 
 that comes through and then lighters free. Many small towns do the 
 same. 
 
 The present system of lighterage from railway to warehouse is objec- 
 tionable; and, besides being attended by loss and risk, it causes delay 
 and an unnecessary charge. 
 
 Lots of 10 to 30 cars, sold by sample or otherwise, can be put on 
 board lighters and delivered to steamships as cheaply as from warehouse, 
 for the labor is the same ; but vessels that load entirely, or nearly so, 
 with grain, receive their load by spouts directly from the warehouse, 
 thus saving all lighterage charges. 
 
 If we had elevators properly constructed at our railway termini, we 
 could save the lighterage on all transfers but steamer grain, and some- 
 times on grain to be shipped by steamer. 
 
 The railways centering here have yard and track capacity in abund- 
 ance, but because the " bulking" system spoken of is not practiced, and. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD." 345 
 
 no warehouses ready to receive it, much delay is caused to, and by, 
 small lots consisting often of single car lots; thus one or two cars may 
 not only cause delay to the whole train of which it forms a part, but 
 often to cars on the same track. 
 
 At present, large lots are lightered free, while one to four cars are 
 lightered at 1£ to 3 cents per bushel expense to shipper. 
 
 With the warehouse system perfected, and having grain inspected in 
 cars on arrival and at once elevated or dumped into store, a train can be 
 unloaded every 15 minutes, including the time necessary to switch into 
 and out of position. There was formerly much opposition to introduc- 
 ing the grading system here, partly on account of the greater number 
 of kinds received here thaii at any other point where- grading is cus- 
 tomary. 
 
 If we adopt the grading system, we shall, no doubt, be governed by 
 the Chicago standard for Illinois wheat; the Milwaukee standard for 
 Minnesota and Wisconsin wheat; the Toledo and Cleveland standard 
 for Ohio and Indiana wheats. Buffalo would, likely, adopt the same 
 grades, and then We would receive it at them at the elevators in Brook- 
 lyn, receiving canal grain as well. 
 
 The improvements now in process of . construction are not all we 
 want ; but those in contemplation, such as building at railway termini 
 of capacious grain warehouses, will inaugurate a system, when com- 
 pleted, which, I consider, will largely facilitate, not only the handling 
 of grain, but greatly that of promptly returning cars to the West. 
 
 The improvements referred to, I shall ask to be permitted to refer to 
 again, or ask you to listen to a report of Mr. Lees, made in the interests 
 of the association. 
 
 Our facilities for handling tobacco, one of the important staples of the 
 Southwest, are probably more perfect than those for handling most other 
 staples, unless it be provisions, in which I can suggest no improvement 
 for the present, iospection-yards for provisions being easily accessible, 
 commodious, and well managed. 
 
 Our facilities for handling cotton have not improved for thirty years. 
 I think the immense loss by stealage, by time, by samplers, weigh- 
 uiasters, shipping-clerks, and cartmen, going from place to place with 
 small lots, would be saved as well as all carting charges, by having 
 warehouses on the water-front in New Jersey or on Long Island, where 
 vessels could load and unload, or where lighters could bring to and take 
 from the warehouses cotton to any railway station, thus saving it from 
 all loss by plucking or damage by rain or snow. 
 
 Our docks are far behind the age, and the piers should all be covered, 
 and a railway, for the convenience of moving products, should encircle 
 the city at an elevation equal to the second story of the pier-warehouses. 
 All the blocking of teams at receiving-docks would be avoided. Now, 
 it not unfrequeutly occurs that from $5 to $10 are paid extra to cartmen 
 to cover their time in waiting for an opportunity to discharge their loads. 
 
 In the matter of handling petroleum, one of our large staples, I con- 
 sider the present facilities fair, except at the Pennsylvania terminus, 
 where they are entirely inadequate, so far as regards shipping, &c. 
 
 Mr. Theodore P. Lees and Mr. Bobert Taylor, who have, in the interests 
 of the association, given the subject consideration, are present, and with 
 your permission I will ask them to read their reports to the association 
 lor your consideration. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Did you refer to car or cart, speaking of $8 or $10 addi- 
 tional? 
 
 Mr. Baker. Carts. There are only two or three centers for receiving 
 
34G TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 freight from the West down town, and sometimes there are fifty or a 
 hundred carts waiting. By this system of an elevated road for them at 
 the different points, all of that would be saved. 
 
 Mr. Theodore F. Lees. Mr. Chairman, I have a report, made at the 
 request of Mr. Baker, to ascertain certain facts in regard to certain facil- 
 ities that were being improved or contemplated. It is as follows : 
 
 B. P. Baker, Eaq., 
 
 Chairman Committee on Terminal Facilities, 
 
 New York Cheap Transportation, Association ; 
 
 In response to yonr.request that I should furnish your committee with such facta as 
 I might be able to command regarding the additional and improved terminal facilities 
 now being actually constructed, as -well as those projected or contemplated, by the 
 several trunk-lines 'terminating at this city, I beg leave to make the accompanying 
 report : 
 
 To aid me in procuring full information Mr. Thurbur, secretary of the association, 
 addressed letters to R. C. Vilas, esq., general freight-agent Erie Railway Company; 
 J. H. Rutter, general freight-agent New York Central and Hudson River Railroad 
 Company, and to J. L. Gossler, New York superintendent Pennsylvania Railroad Com- 
 pany, who very kindly furnished me with interesting accounts of what is being done 
 and what is contemplated by their several companies to improve the facilities for re- 
 ceiving and handling grain and other products at this point. As you are aware, we 
 have no stationary elevators, and are, in the main, dependent upon the lighter and 
 floating-elevator method of receiving and transferring grain. Although this method 
 is behind the age, and is open to other objections, it appears there is no limit to the 
 amount of grain that can be received and landed by the existing means. From the 
 gentlemen referred to, representing the three trunk lines, I learn that, under the pres- 
 ent system, grain can be received and landed more rapidly than the said trunk lines 
 can receive from their connections and haul to this city. This fact conceded, not only 
 directly refutes certain statements regarding our terminal facilities made by parties 
 inimical to the interests of New York, but it is a powerful argument in favor of a new 
 national double-track freight-road, and other projects advocated by the New York 
 Cheap Transportation Association. 
 
 It also suggests the great economy in time and money attainable through improved 
 terminal arrangements. The Erie Railway Company has for several years contem- 
 plated the construction of two large elevators, but have experienced difficulty in find- 
 ing a site on their property that would furnish a proper foundation for such structures. 
 Recently an eligible site has been discovered, and it is now probable that the Erie 
 Company will soon. commence work on improvements that will increase our storage- 
 room for grain several million bushels. 
 
 The Erie Company has materially improved its facilities for west-bound traffic by 
 •constructing new and improved " floaters " for transferring cars, loaded on their piers 
 in this city, to their docks opposite. They can now transfer 50 cars, thus loaded, daily, 
 and propose to still further increase their capabilities in that direction. 
 
 Small lots and fractional lots of grain, often cause serious detention to larger lots 
 and otherwise obstruct the general business of railroads. To obviate this difficulty 
 somewhat, the New York Central and Hudson River Railroad Company is buildinga 
 new pier at Thirty-third street^ on the Hudson River, with grain-bins having a ca- 
 pacity of five car-loads to each bin, and with an elevated track from which cars can be 
 rapidly unloaded. This improvement is to be completed before the close of naviga- 
 tion, and besides facilitating general business by relieving their track, it will, I under- 
 stand, double this company's ability in .handling grain. 
 
 The New York Central Company has also contemplated thebuilding of an elevator, but 
 has found difficulty in obtaining a suitable location on the Hudson River. Other prac- 
 tical considerations have caused delay in undertaking the enterprise. Mr. Rutter be- 
 lieves a general adoption of the grading system by the Produce Exchange will stimu- 
 late the construction of elevators. All concur as to the necessity for elevators which 
 will enable an average train of grain-cars to discharge in from ten to fifteen minutes. 
 
 Much might be said regarding other advantages appertaiuing to the warehouse sys- 
 tem, such as the creation of first-class collaterals in elevator receipts, but I do not know 
 that such details are desired in the present connection. The Pennsylvania Companyare 
 constructing a new grain-track adjoining their new warehouses, which is an extension 
 of facilities under the old or prevalent system. 
 
 From the foregoing you will observe that whatever improvements in terminal facili- 
 ties are actually being made, are mostly an extension of a system which is already an ob- 
 stacle to our commercial advancement. The improvements contemplated are of a de- 
 sirable kind, and from the interviews had with Mr. Vilas, Mr. Rutter, Mr. Gossler, and 
 others, I am convinced that the general feeling with railroad managers and with our 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE 'SEABOARD. 347 
 
 merchants, favors the speedy construction of first-class elevators and the adoption of 
 the grading system in grain transportation. The aid and co-operation whiohthe New 
 York Cheap Transportation Association proposes to give through its several committees, 
 is just what is needed to develop the desired improvements and bring our terminal fa- 
 cilities up to a first-class standard. 
 
 Awaiting further commands, I am very respectfully, your obedient servant, 
 
 THEO. F. LEES. 
 
 New York, October 16, 1873. 
 
 B. P. Bakbk, Esq., 
 
 Chairman Committee on Terminal Facilities, 
 
 New York Transportation Association : 
 
 Sir : In reply to your request for my opinion in relation to terminal facilities in this 
 port, without stating in what particular, I concluded you referred to their mode of 
 construction, operation, and commercial I government, and reply as follows: 
 
 First. Of what should terminal facilities consist at the port of New York ? 
 
 Edifices constructed entirely of iron should be erected at the extreme termination 
 of each railway at the Hudson Eiver opposite New York, of such length, width, and 
 height as will best answer the purpose for receiving, storing, and discharging grain; 
 and the means used for unloading the cars should be such as are adopted in Chicago, 
 or an incline plane leading to the top floor of the warehouse under the roof, with 
 switches and tracks, for'either dividing the train, or leading cars to their proper loca- 
 tions for discharging their particular quality of grain. Shch an arrangement, with a 
 gate in the car-floor for discharging, would require but ten minutes to unload a train 
 of 30 cars containing 10,000 bushels. 
 
 The grain thus discharged, might be discharged directly into vessels alongside the 
 warehouse, or into bins containing the same quality. 
 
 Each warehouse should be provided with au elevating apparatus, for the purpose of 
 elevating and cooling grain that may have become heated or " sweaty," or elevating 
 it into vessels for shipment. The greater the distance grain is elevated, carried, and 
 poured, the more thoroughly dry it will become. Grain undergoes several stages of 
 " sweating," and when in this stage the best remedy for its preservation is elevating, 
 which is much better for the grain than artificial drying by steam-heat, the latter pro- 
 ducing a moist dryness rather than the dryness required to render it impervious to the 
 influences of moisture. These warehouses should be at least 500 feet long and 100 feet 
 wide — sufficiently long and wide to receive an entire train, and discharge it in ten 
 minutes — and be provided with a wire rope for hauling the train up the incline, and to 
 any part of the structure. 
 
 Second. When and where should be grain be inspected ? 
 
 Preferably on the cars on their arrival at New York, and by the Chicago standard or 
 classification, as this is now well understood, besides being satisfactory. A New York 
 certificate of inspection, accompanying warehouse receipt, would satisfy buyers and 
 shippers here, as well those who advance on bills of lading and warehouse receipts. In 
 addition, one " shortage " would be saved to the shipper, for every time grain is moved 
 it loses by abrasion and handling. 
 
 Third. What effect will the erection of properly constructed elevating warehouses 
 in the immediate vicinity, and in the city of New York, have on the commerce of the 
 country ? 
 
 It will have the effect of encouraging direct shipments to this port of large quanti- 
 ties of grain and other products. Shippers in the West are aware of the advantages of 
 direct shipment, and will gladly avail of the opportunity to do so as soon as the facili- 
 ties in contemplation are completed. It would certainly be an advantage to a shipper 
 to have his grain stored at a point where advantage could be taken of an advancing or a 
 steady market, and of the opportunity to make an immediate delivery ; storage, elevat- 
 ing, and shipping charges being the same here as elsewhere. Besides, by haviug grain 
 here, it would tend to equalize the price of grain and freights ; and the facilities for ob- 
 taining advances on grain in store are too well known to require comment. Warehouse 
 receipts would pass as current in Wall street as a clearing-house certificate, as it would 
 be backed by the very best security — a deposit of graiu. 
 
 Large iron warehouses should be built on piers in the city of New York, the pier-floor 
 of which should be open during the .day to accommodate local city traffic, wbilo the 
 upper floors could he used for the storage of general and imported merchandise. 
 
 On account of the brevity of space along the water-front, the approaches to these 
 warehouses should be by an elevated railway, so that all grain-laden cars could en- 
 ter on the first floor, from which it could be elevated to the floors and bins above, 
 or be sent directly into vessels along either side of the warehouse. These structures 
 should be positively fire-proof, and be so constructed as to close the pier-floor at 
 night and Sundays, and leave a certain space outside for access to ship3. These 
 elevated railways should pass entirely around the city, over the street next the river, 
 so that freight-cars could bo sent to any warehouse on the river-front to discharge 
 
348 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 or receive freight, thus relieving the street of a large amount of haulage that now 
 fills the streets with a traffic that should never pass through them. 
 
 The street railways should also be utilized for this purpose, as nearly all freight 
 for city consnmption, arid foi* interior distribution, has to be sent to a general depot, 
 rendering access thereto almost an impossibility, except at the sacrifice of much 
 time, and consequently at great loss. 
 
 The terminal facilities for the receipt and discharge of cotton at this port are the 
 same as existed fifty years ago -when everybody was honest, and waste cotton could 
 not be sold. The consequence is that a great deal of cotton is sent to Europe from 
 southern ports, that would find its way here for sale and shipment, but for the 
 large amount abstracted from each bale by the too-anxious samplers when in transit 
 from one part of the city to the other. 
 
 What is desirable, and ought to be established, is the erection of a series of fire- 
 proof cotton-sheds, two stories high, in a location quite removed from other com- 
 mercial operations ; for instance, on the shore-line in South Brooklyn. Cotton-laden 
 vessels could either discharge at those wharves, or it could be lightered thither at 
 a trifling expense. 
 
 By this arrangement all the danger incident to its conflagration would he avoided, 
 as no fire would be used on the premises, consequently every fire, if one should possi- 
 bly occur on the premises, would arise from spontaneous combustion or wilfull incen- 
 diarism. 
 
 Its insurance would be much less, and its location would be known. Its sale would 
 be effected just the same as at present. 
 
 If I have not alluded to the facilities for handling grain arriving by canal-boat, 
 it is because they are about as perfect as desirable; 'as the canal-boat can convey its 
 cargo to any point desired for discharging, while that arriving by rail must necessarily 
 have an arbitrary movement, the price of which will be regulated by the competing 
 canal and boat. 
 
 Terminal facilities at this port, for handling the products of the country, should lie 
 as convenient and inexpensive as it is possible to make them, as time is measured by 
 a money standard only second to the capital required for their production and move- 
 ment. 
 
 The recent agitation on the subject of transportation has been so widespread, that 
 banking institutions and capitalists have decided on the inexpediency of lockiDg up 
 money, for periods varying from thirty to ninety days, in warehouses of the West, 
 when, by a judicious expenditure of money in the erection of warehouses here, it can be 
 kept in circulation, and thus prevent those stringencies in money which have period- 
 ically occurred since the production of grain for shipment to Europe has assumed such 
 gigantic proportions. 
 
 Of course the influences of the Cheap Transportation Association are already seen 
 in the movements that have taken place regarding terminal facilities, and by contin- 
 uing its efforts in the same important direction, benefits will follow impossible of 
 computation. 
 
 Very respectfully yours, 
 
 ROBERT TAYLOR. 
 
 New Yokk, October 16, 1873. 
 
 Mr. Baker. I desired that you should know that we are at work, and 
 although New York is, as they say, behind the age, we think it is not so 
 far behind the age as is represented, and we mean it shall not be in the 
 future. Our work in other lines, building this double track railroad is 
 only advisory, as in this. We do not propose to build these places, but 
 only to encourage them iu being built. I beg leave to state that we 
 hope to show to the gentlemen composing this committee to-morrow what 
 facilities we have, and hear from the railroad officials their plans of 
 improvement. 
 
 General Samuel Anderson, of the Board of Trade, Portland, exam- 
 ined. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee intended to have visited Portland, 
 arid failing to find the time to do so, requested that your Board of Trade 
 would send a delegation here and favor us with their views on this gen- 
 eral subject of transportation. We should be glad to hear any sugges- 
 tion that you might be willing to make to us about it, either as to the 
 wants of the people of your section of the country, or as to any sugges- 
 tions that you may have looking toward relieving the people by cheap- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 349 
 
 €ning transportation. I will submit no questions, but leave you to 
 make any statement you wish. 
 
 Mr. Anderson. I would say -to tbe committee that I came away from 
 home at a few hours' notice, having been in the country for some time, 
 and had supposed, until the day I left, that the committee would visit 
 Portland. I am, therefore, unprepared with the statistical knowledge 
 which I would like to present to the committee, supposing that they 
 would come themselves, and by observation obtain what we thought 
 was very important information. 
 
 What we wished the committee to see was the position of Portland 
 in reference to the trade and transportation business ; its facilities for 
 export; its relation to the northerly line of transportation from the 
 West. 
 
 I do not propose to go into any question as to the necessity of addi- 
 tional means of transportation. I suppose that is urged very strongly 
 from other sections of the country. Neither do I propose to go into any 
 matter in regard to the cheapness of the water-communication as against 
 the all rail ; but we do know that the West wants the quickest and the 
 cheapest means of transportation, not only to the sea-board of the coun- 
 try, but to the foreign countries ; and if there is any section which af- 
 fords that facility cheapest, and which in time can put it through with 
 the most certainty the quickest, I suppose the committee would be in- 
 terested to look at that point. 
 
 I, therefore, would suggest, first, the geographical position of Port- 
 land as compared with either of the other large cities, or either of the 
 other places which have harbors prepared for the reception and the 
 change of commodities. Then we take that geographical position, not 
 only in reference to the receiving-but to the delivering for foreign con- 
 sumption the grain of the country. In the first place we are half a 
 day nearer Europe than Boston is, we are a day nearer than New York. 
 We are within two hundred and twenty miles of what must be before 
 long the "interior water communication, that is to say, we are within 
 less than two hundred and twenty miles of Burlington, and whenever 
 the Caugbanewago Canal is built and it is only a question whether 
 this committee by their action shall bring it about early or whether it 
 is left until capital without any other stimulus shall build it — it must 
 be done and it will be done — and when that is got through steamers, 
 laden to the capacity at which they are ever likely to pass through the 
 lakes with the advantages of the canals now deepening, will land their 
 cargoes at Swanton or Burlington. Either of them will be the termini 
 of the road running through to Portland. From those two points the 
 road is now building which, in two hundred and twenty miles, will take 
 grain from anywhere on the Lakes and by that canalthe two hundred 
 and twenty miles of rail will put it on a wharf or wharves alongside of 
 vessels with the water of 30 feet depth and rails now laid to many 
 wharves, by which the cars loaded at Burlington or Swanton can come 
 within ten feet of vessels of any capacity that are now run. 
 
 We have a harbor there that is deep enough for any steamer. The 
 Great Eastern did talk of coming there once, but did not. We could 
 have accommodated her ; we can accommodate others. That point, then, 
 gentlemen, is the point which we consider important — the geographical 
 position of Portland. Your map will tell you that, of course, better than 
 I can, yet I felt that it was so strong a point that it had still been over- 
 looked heretofore. 
 
 In speaking of our city it has usually been rather contemptuously — 
 that there was no object in looking toward Portland, or in the committee 
 
350 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 going to Portland, as we were out of the line of everything, and merely 
 a place, without facilities, and with a harbor frozen up off of the line. 
 
 Now, upon that point, as I understand that suggestion has been made, 
 if you are acquainted— and some members of this committee probably are 
 — with matters pertaining to railroad affairs of years ago, they will find 
 that there was a contest between Portland and Boston for the terminus 
 of the old Atlantic and Saint Lawrence, and Saint Lawrence and 
 Atlantic Railroad ; that it was pretty sharp whether it should be Port- 
 land or Boston. Of course Portland had no capital — it was poor — it was 
 a town of 15,000 inhabitants, and Boston everybody knows. The com- 
 mittee met in Montreal. The Boston committee presented there an 
 engraving, I believe, at any rate a picture, illustrating the enterprise of 
 Boston in cutting out steamers through the ice. That point then was 
 quite an important one for our people, who immediately proved to the 
 Montreal people that there was no necessity ever to cut out ice for any 
 steamer in Portland Harbor, and that was one of the turning points 
 which brought the terminus of the Atlantic and Saint Lawrence Bail- 
 road — now the Grand Trunk — to Portland, because the harbor never did 
 freeze so that a vessel could not go through. We do not have to cut 
 the harbor out. It is never frozen. There are times when the inner 
 harbor is skimmed over with ice, but there is no obstruction, and has 
 been none, to the free access of vessels to the ocean: The question was 
 asked, Why, so far north ? It is for the same reason that the ice does not 
 form in the ocean itself. We are within three miles of the open ocean, 
 direct passage simply protected on its mouth by an island thrown across. 
 which leaves an entrance each way, protected further in by one point of 
 land running out which protects the inner harbor ; so that, although we 
 are within three miles of the open sea, it has a direct full action so far 
 as the passage, without other obstruction than whatis necessary to make 
 it the safest harbor that there is upon the coast. It is just angled 
 enough at the point completely to protect the harbor, but yet not to 
 obstruct; so that the ice has no more chance to form there than out in 
 the ocean, except, as I say, occasionally to skim over. As the tide comes 
 in, it breaks it up ordinarily, and we have no difficulty. The best 
 evidence, however, of the absence of' any obstruction from ice is the 
 fact that we have three or four lines of steamers seeking our harbor in 
 the winter that during the summer go to Montreal. 
 
 We have a railroad around the city in a marginal way, by which, I 
 say that any car coming in on roads already built, or which are pro- 
 jected and building, may be placed alongside of the wharf. 
 
 I am entirely disconnected and rambling with anything I may say iu 
 regard to this matter, for I am entirely unacquainted with the manner 
 of procedure before this board. 
 
 The next point which I would make would be that in Portland we 
 have no expenses in reference to our harbor. 1 would say that I 
 should not be afraid myself to take any vessel and go from the open 
 ocean into the wharves of our harbor. The access'is so perfectly plain 
 that a boy brought up in Portland, even if he has not been a sailor, 
 knows it so well, and any sea-faring man who has once been in and out 
 ef that harbor has no fear of taking his vessel in without any pilot. 
 It is but a short distance; it is direct ; it is safe. 
 
 Then there are abundant facilities for warehousing — for elevators. I 
 admit the fact that at present we are not prepared with elevators to do 
 a business which we have not got. We have the places to put them, 
 and capital enough to find those places if we had the business there; 
 that is, the grain to transship. But there are no expenses connected 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 351 
 
 with the harbor, and no expenses, comparatively, connected with the 
 transfer of grain from the points all around in our owii city and imme- 
 diately across the narrow bay that runs up on the opposite shore. We 
 have plenty of water, 30 feet in depth, and a harbor there that as yet 
 we have not begun to put wharves on, and yet there are I do not know 
 how many wharves, quite a large number with the tracks down, and yet 
 any quantity of land ready if there was any necessity for it upon both 
 sides of this little bay to put any amount of wharf, warehouse, and ele- 
 vator accommodation, and parties are ready to do it if the grain is 
 brought there. 
 
 That is all in reference to the economy of the thing. It cau be trans- 
 shipped, if once brought, with no expense, because from the track it can 
 be put upon the vessels. We have no lighterage, no harbor-dues, no 
 pilotage, or any more than requiring payment of the pilotage if the pilot 
 goes aboard of the vessel. 
 
 We have now one road, the Grand Trunk, coming into Portland from 
 the West, besides our roads running east and west through Boston and 
 to New York, and also our eastern roads. We have a road building 
 from pcints that I spoke of on Lake Ohamplain through to Portland; 
 part of it is finished in Vermont ; seventy miles of it in Maine and New 
 Hampshire are finished. It is about two hundred and seventeen miles 
 from Burlington by that road through to Portland. It crosses a ridge 
 of mountains, but it crosses where nature has been kind enough to 
 make a gap, so that we get through with very little difficulty and at no 
 very great expense comparatively. 
 The Chairman. What grades'? 
 
 Mr. Anderson. Our grades on the westerly side will be 85 feet at the 
 mountain ; on the easterly side, 116 feet. We have the same grades 
 that the Baltimore and Ohio BOad has, and established by the same en- 
 gineer who built that road. They have eleven miles continuous grade 
 of 116 feet; we have less than seven, or about six and one : half, miles of 
 116 feet. Of course, at that point, which would have simply seven miles 
 on one side of the mountain, and perhaps a like distance on the other 
 side, there must be assisting machinery, or very heavy machinery for 
 taking heavy freight over; but seven miles' elevation, going in either 
 direction, is no very great amount of distance t6 have a heavy class of 
 engines which now operates on heavy grades in other portions of the 
 country, and which in two hundred and twenty miles distributed makes 
 but very little difference to the cost of transportation — a mere trifle. If 
 roads like the Baltimore and Ohio can be operated, as they have been for 
 years, double the distance, we see no reason why, with that short dis- 
 tance, we may not operate successfully as to this. 
 
 As to the suggestion of snow and ice, it is like our harbor — we hear a 
 good deal of it. We have run our road up where it is a great deal worse, 
 up into the valley on the easterly side of the ridge. We have run there 
 for the past winter, when all other roads were blocked with snow, arid 
 but once daring the whole winter did we stop, and I think we were the 
 only road in Maine that did so. I do not think there were many roads 
 in New Hampshire, Vermont, or anywhere else in New England, and I 
 rather think some in New York, that were not detained more times and 
 lost more trips .than we lost on our road ; and yet with no very large 
 amount of rolling-stock to handle. Formerly, it was the only route 
 north to the sea-coast for Upper Vermont ; until railroads were built, the 
 Notch of the White Mountains, With Portland as its terminus, was the 
 point on the sea-coast for all Northern Vermont ; that is, substantially, 
 I mean to say it was the route through there. 
 
352 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 The men who traveled that are business-men to-day. When Boston 
 Taought up railroads, of course they took the railroad in preference to 
 the old traveled road. 
 
 The testimony of those men who for years used this road is that the 
 difficulty from snows was never at the Notch, where at the time when 
 the snow begins to blow, which is immediately after the storm is over, 
 and the wind shifts into the northwest, when the snow piles up and ob- 
 structs railroads and traveled roads, that then the wind blowing clear 
 through this Notch made a perfectly good road right through there, 
 comparatively, but that it was after they fell into the valley on the 
 easterly side of the Notch, when they come to get into a more easterly 
 direction of their road, that they felt the evil effects of the snow. Now, 
 we have traversed that during the past year, and two years, in fact, what 
 was substantially the same thing up into Conway, and have found not 
 so much difficulty as has been found on almost every other road in New 
 England, and even in New York. 
 
 Perhaps gentlemen may say that is mere assertion without reason. 
 The reason of this is, as I tell you, that our road runs largely in a north- 
 westerly direction, and any one who is familiar with the effect of snow 
 upon roads knows that it is with the current, and that the drifts which 
 pile up across a road are not the drifts which interfere with a railroad, 
 but the drifts which come over and lodge upon roads, and which the 
 roads running east and west are the ones that take. They will be stop- 
 ped ten times where ours is stopped once, and they have had ten times 
 the obstruction we have had. 
 
 Again, snow which is near the coast, which is farther south, as far as 
 it can get and be snow, is damp, and when it is thrown into a track it 
 packs in and is a great deal heavier and harder to be removed. In the 
 light snows of a northern climate when they fall there is no difficulty. 
 Until they are packed by the subsequent wind they can always be readily 
 taken care of on any railroad. It is the wind afterward that packs, on 
 an east and west rdad, the snow which makes the trouble. We do not 
 apprehend any difficulty to our road at all about this. We apprehend, 
 perhaps, an occasional delay of a day? We had just one obstruction, 
 I say, last year, and none the year before, which of itself is the best evi- 
 dence upon this point. 
 
 I have a few statistics that were sent me by the secretary of our 
 board of trade, which I would like to submit. They were sent by him 
 and are vouched for by his signature. 
 
 Mr. Anderson here read as follows : 
 
 Portland has a weekly line of steamers to Europe for six months in the year of about 
 3,000 tons each, some exceeding 4,000 tons.. A fortnightly line, also, known as the Do- 
 minion and Mississippi line, consisting of five large steamers of 2,500 tons ; the Glasgow 
 line of freight-steamers ; the (occasional) line of freight-steamers to London, all of 
 which brought upward of $40,000,000 worth of merchandise to this port from Europe 
 last year. 
 
 • Sixty-five railroad-trains leave and enter the city daily, having a connection with 
 nearly all the roads in New England. 
 
 Portland has unlimited facilities for moving and transferring freight, as cars pass 
 on to about all the wharves, where ships of the largest capacity can lay afloat with 30 
 feet water. Her marginal railway around the city is nearly five miles in extent. Ele- 
 vator capacity, 150,000 bushels grain ; other warehouse capacity, 450,000 bushels grain; 
 elevator-transfer capacity, 30,000 bushels daily; other transfer capacity unlimited. 
 Ten thousand four hundred and forty-seven foreign entries merchandise was made at 
 Portland in 1872. 
 
 Maine is building this year 43,745 tons ships — more than double the tonnage built 
 in all New England last year. Maine has about 2,000 miles railroads, to which 119 
 towns, with a population of 278,437, contribute directly to its local business, all of 
 which centers in Portland. The banking-capital of Portland is $3,500,000 ; deposits in 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 353 
 
 savings-banks, $8,720,153; products of her manufacturing industry, $9,000,000 ; sales of 
 merchandise, $40,000,000; valuation of the city, $29,821,012. 
 
 Facilities for building cars, locomotives, and steamers are ample for present demand. 
 Railroad-iron is made to quite a large extent, both iron and steel rails. 
 
 Portland is a half-day's sail nearer to Europe than any othor port in the United 
 States, and a day nearer than New York. Her harbor is free from obstruction by ice 
 at all times. 
 
 Tours, truly, 
 
 M. N. RICH. 
 
 We are really the outlet of the northern route. We are nearer than 
 the Grand Trunk, a shorter distance to the lakes, and a shorter distance 
 to Montreal than by the Grand Trunk some forty miles. We are the 
 principal point as the point of departure, geographically, for a;l that 
 northern lake region. 
 
 Now, while gentlemen may think that the Caughanawaga Canal, or 
 any improvements that can be made there, are in the interests of another 
 country, yet it seems to me entirely different. It seems to me as if this 
 transportation to the center of the country was well provided lor now ; 
 that it is strong in every way. New York is strong; the central routes 
 are strong. It is the outside point that, it seems to me, Congress should 
 pay some attention to strengthening, if possible ; that in the farther south- 
 ern points, perhaps, and more northern, attention should be paid. It 
 seems to me that this line through the waters of the lakes, and through 
 to the nearest point to Europe on our own territory, is of importance. 
 Now, the West will hold that water-communication ; they will transport 
 over that; it is the cheapest outlet they can ever have. The West is 
 bound to hold and to protect that water-communication, and the ques- 
 tion, as it seems to me, is whether that business shall be done. The 
 passage over the water is of no consequence; it adds nothing to any 
 body, whether it shall be done by Montreal, and pass out the imports 
 which come back with the steamers always making Montreal their head- 
 quarters 7 and.the vessels which make that export take the grain from 
 the lakes and Saint Lawrence, whether Montreal shall do the great 
 business of the West, or whether it shall fee done down east somewhere, 
 I feel really perhaps ashamed to say Portland, because it looks as though 
 we were magnifying a very small town, but at the same time standing, 
 as it were, at the very gate, we perhaps appreciate, or think we ap- 
 preciate, our position more than people elsewhere. 
 
 But it seems to me as if either Montreal or Portland must, in the fu- 
 ture, be the point at which this great product of the Northwest must find 
 its way out, and, therefore, it seems to me as though this Caughane- 
 wago Canal shall be the side-track upon which you switch off the bus- 
 iness from the lakes, and bring it down on to American territory, and 
 take and transport it and export it, and receive in return the imports. 
 It must be by that switch, if we shall take that freight off and bring it 
 down to it, rather than have it go through to Montreal and pass out in 
 their vessels. I was in Montreal a short time since, and talked with 
 Sir Hugh Allen. Of course, I am interested in railroads. Well, he is 
 interested in railroad-matters up there somewhat, and has some large 
 interests on his hands', such as the steamer-interest. He owns a line of 
 steamers running into Portland in winter and Montreal in summer. I 
 asked him if our road was built whether we might feel sure of his 
 steamers staying in Portland. Boston was making an effort to get the 
 steamers there, and we have nothing, except our position, with which 
 to contend with any other place. It is our whole means of offense and 
 defense. He said that our facilities in Portland were such that all we 
 had to do was to get the means of transportation, so as to bring the 
 23 T s 
 
354 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 grain out of the West there, and we never need be troubled about him 
 or his steamers ; that if he did not have them there others would. 
 The place of itself would command the means of transportation of any 
 grain or any products that we could lay down in the city of Portland. 
 
 It is upon that fact that I would claim, if I might make any claim, 
 that as a national thing the United States, to protect the trade and hold 
 the trade for our own country, and in our own borders, should give that 
 outlet upon the Saint Lawrence to the vessels loaded with grain which 
 are finding their way, and will find their way, through the Saint Law- 
 rence. When it gets to that point, it must go to and be handled at 
 Montreal, and shipped from there, and no vessels coming back will 
 bring back importations for the West, or else it must be aided in getting 
 down into our own coast. 
 
 The Chairman. Your idea, then, of the cheapest mode of reaching 
 England is by the Saint Lawrence and the Caughanewago route f 
 
 Mr. Anderson. I think it must be as a water-communication. It is 
 much cheaper than any rail can be. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the distance from Boston to Burlington or 
 the nearest point on Lake Ohamplain ? 
 
 Mr. Anderson. From Boston I think it is twenty miles farther. 
 I think it is about two hundred and fifty miles from Boston to Burling- 
 ton. 
 
 The Chairman. This Caughanewago route is entirely on Dominion 
 territory, I believe. 
 
 Mr. Anderson. Well, I suppose we may use that where it is for our 
 interest as well as their waters. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Have you any report or documents of the Grand 
 Trunk Boad that would show its capacity ! 
 
 Mr. Anderson. I have not. They have about twenty trains a day 
 coming into Portland over that road. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. What is the length of that road in comparison with 
 yours ? 
 
 Mr. Anderson. We should strike Montreal forty miles or less than 
 they. We strike to Ottawa. There is a line projected, and will be 
 built — twenty-four miles of it being already built — running from Ot- 
 tawa this way, some twenty-odd miles, I think, above Montreal. They 
 have made a thorough survey there of the river and of the whole route. 
 They can built a bridge across there for about $1,000,000, as against the 
 Victoria Bridge costing $7,000,000. 
 Mr. Sherman. Across the Saint Lawrence f 
 
 Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir ; they will build one for $1,000,000. That 
 road will undoubtedly be built, and make connection at about the same 
 point — the outlet of the Saint Lawrence. Our road, in that connection, 
 would cross the Grand Trunk, and I think it would be about sixty to 
 seventy miles nearer to Portland. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. What is the distance from Portland to Montreal by 
 the Grand Trunk? 
 Mr. Anderson. Three hundred miles, I think. 
 Mr. Sherman. How does that transportation in bond work from 
 Portland to Montreal ; is there any difficulty ? 
 Mr. Anderson. I never have heard of any difficulty. 
 Mr. Sherman. Goods are landed and transported without going 
 through the custom-house? 
 Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir; passed right along. 
 Mr. Sherman. How are they identified ? 
 Mr. Anderson. Put under lock by the customhouse officers. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO. THE SEABOARD. 355 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Yes ; they are there delivered in unbroken cars. 
 
 Mr. Anderson. Tes, sir ; it is all under their instruction. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Does it pass through warehouses t 
 
 Mr. Anderson. It passes immediately through. The cars are locked 
 up by the customhouse officer in Portland -who superintends the break- 
 ing bulk, &c. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Have you heard of any practical difficulty, any cases 
 of defrauding the revenue % 
 
 Mr. Anderson. I never heard anything of the kind. I think there has 
 been no report published of the other end of the road we are building. 
 You see the part that we undertook to build was from Portland to the 
 Connecticut Biver through the States of Maine and New Hampshire. 
 We did publish a pamphlet upon that road, which I will forward for the 
 use of the committee. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. What is the extent of business done on the line from 
 Portland north ? I mean the road from Portland to Nova Scotia. 
 
 Mr. Anderson. That is the European and North American. I have 
 no statistical information in regard to that line. 
 
 The Chairman. You do not know whether there is any international 
 trade 1 
 
 Mr. Anderson. O yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. What are the chief elements of that trade; lumber? 
 
 Mr. Anderson. No, sir ; not on that European and North American 
 road. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Are there any imported European goods coming down 
 over that line from Halifax to Portland ? 
 
 Mr. Hussey. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Davis. I infer from what you said that your route would be made 
 up of rail and water. Have you considered the relative cost per ton per 
 mile of rail and water? 
 
 Mr. Anderson. No, sir ; I am not an expert. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Can you give us any facts that now exist in that re- 
 gard ? 
 
 Mr. Anderson. No, sir; I am not an expert at all on that. I take it 
 from other men's calculations as to the relative cost. I am simply a rail- 
 road-man. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Perhaps your judgment, whether you are an expert or not, 
 would be worth something ? 
 
 Mr. Anderson. No, sir; I have not the means of making a judgment. 
 I could not stand any examination on that point at all. I really do not 
 know except as I read. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Do you know whether there is a rate established between 
 the water and the rail ; if so, what is it % What is the cost relatively, 
 if any, of the route pro rata ? 
 
 Mr. Anderson. I cannot tell you what that is. I am not in connec- 
 tion with them, and therefore I have no practical knowledge. 
 
 Mr. Davis. (To Mr. Hussey.) Have you knowledge on that point ? 
 
 Mr. Hussey. The cost per mile per ton by water is less than one- 
 half. 
 
 Mr. Hussey, of the Board of Trade of Portland, Me. Mr. Chairman, 
 we came here as representatives of the Portland Board of Trade, and, of 
 course, do not represent Portland or Portland Harbor alone, and do not 
 purpose to do so. 
 
 Perhaps no State in the Union is as much interested in this question 
 of cheap transportation as the State of Maine, because we are a lumber- 
 ing and a ship-building people. Consequently, we want, this produce of 
 
356 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 the West at the cheapest possible rates. We are consumers and not 
 producers of grain, provisions. That is an important point. Conse- 
 quently, when arguments have been presented by my associate, it is 
 with a view to help aid the business of the State of Maine as one of 
 the States of the Union. 
 
 General Anderson has spoken of pilotage. 1 would say, having been 
 a long time connected with the board of trade, that the board of trade 
 are authorized by the State, among other matters in Portland, to ap- 
 point port-wardens and pilots. The question has often come up in rela- 
 tion to pilots, and we have never appointed them, for the very reason 
 that it is not deemed essential to have pilots ; at least we do not want 
 to have compulsory pilotage, to say the least, and the sentiment has 
 been very strongly against it, because any person with a very slight 
 nautical knowledge can navigate any vessel into Portland, so close are 
 we to the open sea. There is no difficulty whatever in bringing any 
 class of vessel into our harbor ; and, when in the harbor, although I 
 would not talk about it, because it has been talked about so much that 
 it has become, perhaps, a by-word, but it is known to all the members 
 of the committee that it is one ©f the very best harbors in the country, 
 with the deepest water and the best protected. 
 
 The British provinces have been spoken of. A large amount of busi- 
 ness is done there. Not only does Maine want this cheap transportation 
 for the consumption of her own State, but we want it for transport to 
 the British eastern provinces, as making a large business. A large 
 business is done between Portland and the lower provinces. We are 
 interested as transporting the products of the West to the eastern pur- 
 chasers, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and Prince Edward Island. 
 The largest part of their consumption, and I may say almost the entire 
 consumption of grain and flour and provisions, now goes into Portland 
 by the Grand Trunk, and is transported to the eastern provinces. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. That is carried by water ? 
 
 Mr. Httssey. That is carried by water. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Tou do not carry that by rail 1 
 
 Mr. Hussey. No, sir; it comes from the West as being the cheapest 
 mode of getting it to the eastern provinces. Portland is the best point 
 to which to bring the western produce for the eastern provinces, and so* 
 it is also for Liverpool. The business of Portland is done very cheaply 
 compared with other cities. When we are as large as New York it. 
 will undoubtedly cost as much as it does here, but now the expense i& 
 very small ; every charge is small. Although we now have no grain- 
 elevator, it having been burned this summer, our piers are long and 
 numerous. There are thirty or forty of them where a great amount of 
 shipping can ride safely, and this grain can be transferred very easily 
 from the cars into ships, or into warehouses on the piers. Every pier 
 is equal to an elevator. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What is the cost to ship now ? 
 
 Mr. Hussey. The cost would be very trifling, indeed. The exact cost 
 I could not giye you ; but it must be very small. It could not be half a 
 cent a bushel. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Done by spouting, I suppose ? 
 
 Mr. Hussey. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Do you elevate it at all by steam ? 
 
 Mr. Hussey. As I say, we have no elevator. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. It is just spouted into the vessel, I suppose, from the 
 car? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 357 
 
 Mr. Hussey. Tes, sir ; it goes along so closely to the line of the 
 wharves and the stores that it is handled very easily. 
 
 We are differently situated than perhaps almost any other place. 
 Our principal business-street is broad, a hundred feet wide, and runs in 
 front of all our wharves through the city, the entire length of the har- 
 bor, connecting the Grand Trunk Eailway with the railways going west — 
 to Boston and west. From this railway running through the center of 
 this broad street, they have tracks from this main track running down 
 on to all the piers ; so that in each of these piers the freight is brought 
 in and the cars are switched off on to the piers, and there the cargo is 
 discharged — lumber, grain, produce, &c. We have very ample facili- 
 ties there for a very large business, and are at present doing a small 
 business. We have pretty enterprising people, and they want to do 
 more. 
 
 We have, in addition to the foreign steamers — the English steamers, 
 which my associate (Mr. Anderson) referred to— a line of three steamers 
 of about 1,200 or 1,500 tons each, that are run all the time to the east- 
 ern part of the State, to Eastport, and Saint John, New Brunswick; 
 and we have also a line of steamers to Halifax. They have had three 
 steamers, and have now two, one having been burned at the wharf this 
 summer. We have also other steamers, which run to the other points 
 in the eastern part of the State of Maine, which transport a great deal 
 of this western produce. It-will be seen, therefore, that Portland is a 
 large consumer of this western produce. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Can you give us the statement of how you prorate be- 
 tween water and rail? 
 
 Mr. Hussey. I can say it now, so far as the communication we have 
 opened. Do you mean from Portland east ! 
 
 Mr. Davis. Anywhere where rail and water prorate. I would like 
 to know what it is. 
 
 Mr. Hussey. It is about one-third of the cost by water of rail. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Can you give us about what point, from what point ; the 
 figures I mean ? 
 
 Mr. Hussey. From Portland to Halifax and Saint John ; to any con- 
 nections with the railway in the provinces. 
 
 Mr. Anderson. Do you not prorate with Boston roads ? 
 
 Mr. Htjssey. We do sometimes in the winter. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Will you give us what that is, if you can 1 
 
 Mr. Htjssey. About one-third is the proportion. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Then I understand it costs two-thifds less by water— as 
 one is to three, water and rail — do I f 
 
 Mr. Htjssey. Under similar circumstances. There are cases, you 
 know, where the matter differs. For instance, you take a short-line rail 
 and a long line of water-communication, and then the rail necessarily 
 wants a larger proportion, and vice versa with a very short water-cOm- 
 munication and a long rail-communication. The expense of handling 
 the goods for a short distance would be the same as for a long. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Leaving that out of the question, my object is to get the 
 relative cost by rail and water, everything equal. That, I understand 
 you to say, would be one- third on water and two-thirds on rail? 
 
 Mr. Hussey. Tes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Can you give us the cost of transporting a bushel of 
 wheat from Montreal or Burlington to Portland now by the Grand 
 Trunk Eoad from Portland to Montreal; what is the cost per bushel or 
 . the cost per ton per mile either way ? 
 
358 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 M. Hussey. I do not know the Grand Trunk rates, sir. It is about 
 40 cents a barrel for flour. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. That is two hundred and some odd pounds? 
 
 Mr. Hussey. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Flour is always cheaper by rail than, wheat. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Tou do not know, however, what they charge? 
 
 Mr. Hussey. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. (To Mr. Anderson.) Have you ever made any estimate 
 about what you could transport for on your road from Burlington to 
 Portland ? 
 
 Mr. Anderson. No, sir; we Lave never looked. This matter is yet 
 entirely new. As I say, I came here at a very few hours' notice, and 
 somewhat unprepared. 
 
 Mr. Davis. (To Mr. Hussey.) I understood you to say you were run- 
 ning aline of boats, and the figures you give us are your experience? 
 
 Mr. Hussey. Yes, sir ; I am interested in a line of boats. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. For about five months of the year they cannot run 
 with boats up into Montreal, but you say you can run into Portland all 
 the time? 
 
 Mr. Hussey. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. In the summer-time they transport produce more 
 cheaply from Montreal to Liverpool than from Portland ? 
 
 Mr. Hussey. Their return-cargoes are destined for Canada — for 
 Montreal. Importations by Montreal are made through these lines of 
 steamers, and they run in there. It is their home. They come to Port- 
 land and send their goods to Montreal over the rail received during the 
 winter. It must be remembered that we are a small town. 
 
 This point in regard to the harbor in winter is. a very important point. 
 We are unobstructed through the winter. Now, taking the harbor of 
 Philadelphia, the river is obstructed by ice in the winter, interfering 
 with business. The river here at New York is, on both sides, often 
 very troublesome, from so much floating ice, and we are less obstructed 
 than almost any shipping-port. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. How is it with the Boston Harbor; is that open? 
 
 Mr. Hussey. Yes, sir; that is kept open all winter, but it is more ob- 
 structed than Portland.Harbor. 
 
 For the purpose of importing goods from Europe to the West, we 
 have advantages there over almost any other place. If goods come in, 
 we are not crowded ; our rivers are not crowded, and these steamers 
 come up to a pier and land their goods from the steamer directly into 
 the cars for the West. And oftentimes goods reach their destination 
 West, arriving in Portland, before you can get them through the custom- 
 house in New York. 
 
 Mr. Anderson. We can lay them down in New York as quick as a 
 merchant can here through his own custom-house. We can bring them 
 here into the city of New York as quickly as that. 
 
 The committee adjourned. 
 
 New York, October 18, 1873. 
 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment. 
 
 Horace H. Day. When I had the honor to appear before the com- 
 mittee at its former session in New York, I was constrained to close my 
 remarks before I had got through, upon the entrance of the committee 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 359 
 
 of the legislature, and omitted to emphasize two points which I deem 
 of great importance to the general subject — one in respect to terminal 
 facilities; the other in connection with the enlargement of the Erie 
 Canal. 
 
 I referred to a method which had been discovered by me whereby 
 canal-boats could be lowered from one level in the canal to another 
 without passing down the water from the upper level, and thereby ren- 
 dering wholly unnecessary any enlargement of feeders or reservoirs. 
 Indeed, by this system the capacity of the Erie Canal, or any other 
 canal, may be increased twenty-fold, without any additional increase of 
 water. A very large proportion of the cost of the Erie Canal is em- 
 braced in the feeder-canals and reservoirs, which, by the old system r 
 every boat passing through takes from one level to the other a lockful 
 of water, and by that system the present supply is insufficient if the 
 carrying capacity of the canal should be required to be doubled. By 
 my system two locks would be necessary at every change of level, and 
 in them would be suspended iron. cases, in form corresponding with the 
 locks now in use. One of them would be suspended in one lock and 
 the other in another lock by the side of it, and by. wire cables attached 
 to each, as one descended the other would ascend, and the lock thus 
 constructed and operated would take up as much water every time as it 
 took down, and hence none would pass through the canal. The cost 
 would be comparatively trifling, and thus a great saving be made. 
 
 Now, in respect to terminal facilities, it is well known that the cost of 
 land in or about large cities is so great that it has occurred to me that 
 grain-depots might properly be located, say at Whitehall, should the 
 route of the ship-canal from the West extend to that point, where laud 
 is very low, and where, by a proper system of elevation, the train of 
 cars might come above the depot which held the grain, or granaries, 
 allowing the grain by its gravitation to fall into it, and thus a large 
 quantity, within a short distance of the city by rail, might be stored 
 through the winter ; and when a vessel coming from abroad required a 
 cargo to return, this grain could be delivered within one or two days 
 from these granaries directly on board the ship, by a proper system of 
 elevated railroads extending over each pier or dock, and thus render 
 wholly unnecessary the large expenditures and costly structures in the 
 crowded cities. The grain thus stored could be made available for a 
 turn of capital while in storage by certificates, which would be current 
 in the financial centers. I make these suggestions lest they might not 
 have occurred to the committee or to others, and ask their considera- 
 tion. 
 
 I understand the committee propose to examine the route from the 
 Ohio to the James Eiver — the Kanawha Canal. The system of canal- 
 boat elevation, or steamship elevation, as spoken of by me, is equally 
 applicable in passing vessels over the Alleghany Mountains ; and the 
 extreme expense of a tunnel, which would cost, perhaps, eight or ten 
 million dollars, might be avoided, and inasmuch as the question of the 
 success of a canal across the Alleghanies has always been the question 
 of water-supply, it will be manifest that if the quantity of water on the 
 upper level does not require to be locked off, then only a sufficient sup- 
 ply to provide for evaporation and soakage will be necessary, and it 
 might be even cheaper to pump the water up from water-courses below 
 the summit to keep the canal full, than to attempt to construct reser- 
 voirs upon the summit of the upper levels. It is a question of dollars 
 and cents. The cost of a steam-engine of proper construction for raising 
 water is well known to engineers; a matter easily calculated, how much 
 
360 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 ■water would be required from week to week to supply the amount lost 
 by evaporation and soakage; and inasmuch as many persons, in com- 
 mon with myself, believe that the true system of vessels to pass from 
 the Ohio to the James would be not less than 600 tons, wide flat-boats, 
 propelled by steam, which also are fitted to navigate the Ohio and Mis- 
 sissippi, and other contributing rivers, I desire the committee, in survey- 
 ing the whole field, to consider the great economy which would result 
 from the adoption of this system for that canal, by greatly lessening the 
 cost of going over the mountain, leaving the more money to expend in 
 enlarging the general canal itself. With vessels thus loaded at the de- 
 pot-cities on the Mississippi and. tributary rivers, passing without trans- 
 shipment through to Eichmond and the James Eiver, but one handling 
 would be required ; and the same route would also accommodate a large 
 amount of coarse, bulky goods required to be passed from the sea-board 
 to the West, and as this route will be open ten or eleven mouths in the 
 year, if not the year round, greater facilities of commerce between the 
 East and the West could be enjoyed by this middle route than could be 
 even by the route through the lakes and Champlain, or the Saint Law- 
 rence, as suggested by me in my former remarks to the committee. 
 
 If the financial calamity now general over the country should throw 
 out of employment, as it most likely will, a million of men, it will be a 
 serious consideration for the Government whether they cannot he em- 
 ployed in building these structures, and thus, while providing tor the 
 future, serve also the present, averting the calamity which the idleness 
 of a large number of men might possibly call upon the country. 
 
 If these canals or railroads should be commenced at once, in my judg- 
 ment, they could be built by the issue of United States bonds converti- 
 ble and reconvertible, bearing a rate of interest not exceeding 3.65 per 
 cent., making these bonds inter-convertible with certificates of indebted- 
 ness, to be issued by the Government, corresponding with our present 
 greenbacks in denomination, and these certificates of indebtedness be 
 made a legal tender for all purposes in the United States. By this sys- 
 tem we could give to investors a perfect security, guaranteed alike by 
 the Government of the United States and by the revenues derived from 
 these canals and internal improvements, and at the same time provide 
 for a large population, idle, suffering, perishing, and, with all, inaugu- 
 rate a system of finance, to which, sooner or later, the country must 
 come, as, with our large foreign indebtedness, we cannot expect the 
 restoration of specie payments for a long time. 
 
 New York, October 18, 1873. 
 G. E. Blanchard, second vice-president Erie Eailway Company, 
 examined : 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. State your connection with the Erie Eailroad Company. 
 
 Answer. I am the second vice-president of that company at the pres- 
 ent time. 
 
 Q. What has been your business for several years past 1 ? 
 
 A. I had been acting in the capacity of general freight agent of the 
 Erie Eailway Company for one year before 1 was made the second vice- 
 president. Prior to that time, for eight years, I was general freight 
 agent of the Baltimore and Ohio Eailroad aud its leased lines, and 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 361 
 
 before that I was general freight agent of the Ohio and Mississippi 
 Kailway. 
 
 Q. What, in your judgment, is the effect upon transportation of the 
 various non-co-operative freight-lines known as fast-freight lines and 
 others 1 
 
 A. I have had a great deal of experience in connection with this sys- 
 tem of fast-freight lines. At the time I was general freight agent of 
 the Ohio and Mississippi Eailroad the system of fast-freight lines had 
 iust commenced. The subject being submitted to our people, I at that 
 time reported positively against it, believing, as I now do, that it was 
 unfair both to the stockholders of the railroad companies and to the 
 producer and consumer of the property transported. The reason for 
 that is that those companies have been organized upon various founda- 
 tions and bases, all of which arrive at the same object, some of them 
 by more circuitous means than others. 
 
 The different forms of fast-freight lines which have prevailed over 
 the different trunk-lines have been three in number. The first form 
 that was adopted and used, I think, originally, by the Erie and New 
 York Central Roads, was a system by which they gave chartered or organ- 
 ized companies or associations of individuals a contract which was at 
 so much per car between the points of origin and delivery of the prop- 
 erty. That price per car was usually based upon an average of the 
 rates on the four different classes that might prevail from New York, 
 Boston, Philadelphia, or Baltimore to the West. The result of that 
 form of commission was that it at once made the upper classes, as they 
 are called by railway-men, more valuable than the lower classes, and 
 offered inducements to the owners of these companies to solicit the 
 upper classes only. For instance, to explain my meaning more clearly, 
 we will assume that the rate from New York to Cincinnati was $1 first 
 class, 80 cents second class, 60 cents third class, and 40 cents fourth 
 class. Assuming an average of these classes upon the graduations of 
 tonnage to be 70 cents, without figuring it, all the property that they 
 could get at a dollar gave them a profit of 30 cents for 100 pounds. 
 All the property they could get at 80 cents -paid a profit of 10 cents a 
 hundred pounds. A profit of $6 a ton on dry-goods between here and 
 Cincinnati was equivalent, upon a car of eight tons, to $54. The result 
 of that large premium upon the rate was that the buyer of the prop- 
 erty paid actually to the railroad company a rate of 70 cents, the public 
 paid a dollar, and the stockholders received 70 cents. In that way the 
 railway companies were permitting a class of middlemen to stand 
 between the interests of the public and their own, which has had a 
 great deal to do with the system of peculation and fraud which has 
 crept into the railway management of this country. That was one of 
 the forms. . ' 
 
 I have known-east bound where a contract was given ou tht 
 basis of 20,000 pounds at fourth class — the basis differing between 
 westward and eastward freight, because nine-tenths of all our tonnage 
 eastward is in fourth class and flour. I have seen men load at various 
 points in the West, and I recall some cases. At Indianapolis was a car 
 ou which the Car Transit Company paid to the railway companies on 
 the basis of 20,000 pounds at 50 cents from Indianapolis to New York! 
 They would crowd into that car 22,000 pounds of provisions, and fill the 
 top with wool, or broom-corn, or such other freight as they might get 
 on, and they would charge 75 cents, 80 cents, or a dollar a pound on the 
 light freights, the 2,000-pound margin between the 20,000 pounds 
 which they paid for, and the 22,000 pounds which they loaded, being a 
 
362 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 10 per cent, item of profit, and, added to that, the entire receipts which 
 they secured from the broom-corn or wool, as it might be, was another 
 additional item of profit, which they received, and for which the rail- 
 way companies and the stockholders of these companies received not a 
 penny. In addition to this, these car contract companies had contracts 
 with the railway companies, by which the railways paid them a mileage 
 for the use of their cars, varying from a cent to two cents a mile run, 
 whether the car was loaded or empty. When some of these officers of 
 these fast-freight lines have approached railway companies, for the pur- 
 pose of inducing them to join this system of business, they have shown 
 us that their mileage receipts would pay the wear and tear of the cars, 
 and ordinarily the expenses of their agencies, so that the money which 
 the carriers paid, or, more properly speaking, allowed to be collected by 
 these specific contracts, was practically a clear sum to this stock com- 
 pany which run those fast- freight lines. That was the first form of fast- 
 freight lines, and was the original form as I now remember it. 
 ■ Stockholders of several of the western railway companies, particularly, 
 believing that that form of compensation was excessive and UDJust, 
 modified it so that another form became the favorite both with railway 
 companies and with these fast-freight lines, and that was a system by 
 which a large percentage of the earniugs of the railway should be paid 
 to those companies for the purpose of securing this business. These 
 percentages have ranged from 15 per cent, upon first, second, and third 
 classes westward bound, 10 per cent, upon fourth class, and 8 per cent. 
 upon special, down to 10 per cent, upon first, second, and third classes, 
 and 5 per cent, upon fourth and specials, all those figures being west- 
 bound. East-bound, the percentage has been 12 per cent, upon first, 
 second, and third classes, and 10 per cent, upon fourth, and 8 per cent., 
 in some cases, upon flour. The effect of that has been that, if a 
 railway company charged between Chicago and New York a rate of 60 
 cents per 100 pounds, and 10 per cent, of this sum went into the hands 
 of this company, the railway company received 54 cents, although the 
 public paid 60, the margin of profit going to pay the cost of agencies, 
 offices, and expenses, dividends upon stock, representing, in a great 
 many cases, the value of the cars which they had put upou these lines 
 and the good- will which they usually paid for to some company that had 
 had private fast- freight line contracts under the charter system prior to 
 the inauguration of this. In one case I know of a large sum having 
 been paid by a company organized upon the latter plan for the good- 
 will of a company that had existed under the -first plan I have told yon 
 of. 
 
 The effect of the second plan was, in a great many cases, as bad as 
 that of the first, because the profits which they lacked under the second 
 as compared with the first system were very often made up by a system 
 of scalping, by which, at an intermediate point in the line, a sum of money 
 was taken bodily out of the rate and given to this company in addition 
 to this percentage commission. For iustance, from Memphis, we will 
 say, cotton was brought to New York at the rate of $1.25 per 100 
 pounds. The price of that per bale from Memphis to Cincinnati being a 
 dollar, would represent 20 cents per 100 pounds, assuming a bale to 
 average 500 pounds. In a great many cases that have come under my 
 observation in past years, but which is effectually checked at this time 
 by all lines, these fast-freight lines would bring the property forward 
 from Cincinnati at 80 cents, while railway companies were entitled to a 
 dollar, and the margin of 20 cents between what they paid the boats and 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 363 
 
 what they collected from the railways was also put into the treasury of 
 those fast-freight lines and made up another source of their profits. 
 
 The commission system was also subject to abuses in this, that 
 property that ought not to have gone into these contracts, and which 
 was transported between the non-competing points, would get into 
 these cars and be manifested as competitive freight, and the railway 
 companies would lose the commission so paid or forcibly collected upon 
 business which they ought not to have included at all. Therefore, a 
 rate of a dollar under that plan from here to Chicago would really pay 
 the railway companies 85 cents, and the firm, individual, or corporation 
 at Chicago pay a dollar, the 15 cents became the margin of profit out of 
 which agency and other expenses were paid upon first-class goods, dif- 
 fering upon the other classes as the rates might differ. The sum total 
 of this percentage has made very large profits for some of these fast- 
 freight lines. I have found this system of commission fast-freight 
 lines prevailing in two lines via the Erie Railway when I became 
 connected with it ; and availing ourselves of the privilege we have in 
 both contracts to terminate them next spring, we have given them no- 
 tice, and it is our intention to put both of these lines on the improved 
 co-operative basis. Another form of fast-freight lines, which prevailed 
 only to a very limited extent, however, was to allow such companies the 
 margin of profit they could secure over fixed rates per ton per mile, 
 relying upon competition to prevent excessive charges against the 
 public. 
 
 The third form of fast-freight lines, which has latterly prevailed, 
 is the co-operative. I may state that the most recent one that has 
 been organized is, perhaps, the Great Western Dispatch Company, in 
 which our own company, the Lake Shore, the Cleveland, Columbus find 
 Cincinnati, the Atlantic and Great Western, the Toledo, Wabash and 
 Western, the Indianapolis and Saint Louis, the Ohio and Mississippi, 
 and a few lateral lines have become parties. We have recently had a 
 form of co-operative contract up for discussion which has lasted for some 
 two months. We availed ourselves of what we believed to be the best 
 forms of organization of all these fast-freight lines under the co-opera- 
 tive plan, and took from them what we believed to be all of the good 
 points and left out those which were unfair either to the public or to 
 our stockholders and owners, the result of which is that that line is to 
 be organized upon the basis of a contract now in print, and it will give 
 me pleasure to submit a copy of it to you. By it the railway companies 
 choose from among their officers each a director, and usually these di- 
 rectors are chosen from officers outside of those who have the immedi- 
 ate direction of the freight business of the line. We then agree that 
 each railway company will set aside a certain number of cars, usually 
 based at the start upon a mileage arrangement, our own company, for 
 instance, contributing one per mile. At the expiration of six months, 
 when we shall have arrived at a basis of earnings, we meet any deficien- 
 cies to that equipment in the proportions in which each company has 
 earned of the gross earnings of the line for that period. In that way, if 
 the Erie Company should have received 65 per cent, of the gross earn- 
 ings of the line for six months, we would contribute 65 per cent, of any 
 additional equipment that should be needed. After this equipment is 
 perfected and placed upon the line, we then choose a general manager 
 for expediting the transit of the business, for the prompt settlement of 
 overcharges, losses, damages, and as a neutral representative to settle 
 questions impartially arising between railway companies over which, if 
 left alone, they might differ, and so delay any proper and fair 
 
364 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 adjustments. The manager usually has the movement and di- 
 rection of these cars unon the different lines, and he attends 
 to the prompt settlement of all things in the movement of prop- 
 erty, having, however, no option whatever in the making of the 
 rates upon the property. He is simply to attend to its movement. He 
 selects such assistants or agents as may be required from time to time 
 to give the line prominence and efficiency at the different centers to and 
 from which the property of the line is transported. The accounts are 
 then adjusted monthly. The general freight-agents of the companies 
 usually constitute a board of audit. The actual expenses which may 
 have been incurred each month are certified by the general manager to 
 this board of audit, accompanied by the necessary vouchers. They axe 
 then divided among the different companies, in the exact proportions in 
 which they have shared in the receipts of the line for the corresponding 
 period. The expenses of each company are certified by all of the board 
 of audit, and those certificates constitute drafts upon the treasurers of 
 the respective railways for the expenses, which are paid upon presenta- 
 tion. In that way the expenses of these co-operative lines are reduced 
 very much below what the railway companies paid under either of the 
 -old systems for similar service. 
 
 We have here on our own line parallel cases, which show how much 
 more just the co-operative form is, to both the owners of the property 
 and the public, than perhaps any other that could be drawn. Under 
 thecontract made by Mr. Gould for the Great Western Dispatch Com- 
 ,pany, which is the second form I have spoken of — a commission line— 
 we have paid to them 15 per cent, upon the first three classes west-bonnd, 
 and 10 and 8 upon the fourth and special classes west-bound. We have 
 also paid 10 per cent, upon the upper classes east-bound, and 8 per cent. 
 upon the lower classes east-bound, although a portion of the receipts 
 "were returnable to the railways in dividends. Eunning parallel to that 
 line to Obicago, the Erie and North Shore Line was organized two years 
 ago this fall, upon the completion of the Niagara Palls branch of the 
 Erie Railway. Mr. Joy, the president, of the Michigan Central Eoad, 
 being an economical and fair manager, and having the interests of his 
 stockholders and the public much more at heart than Mr. Gould is ever 
 regarded to have had, demanded that the co-operative form of line should 
 be made, and the Erie and North Shore Line has, during the year which 
 I have been immediately supervising the freight-traffic of theErie Com- 
 pany, been running parallel to the Great Western Dispatch. Tbe aver- 
 age which the Great Western Dispatch has deducted from the Erie Rail- 
 way earnings has been in the neighborhood of 9 per cent., (although we 
 •do share ultimately in a dividend,) while the North Shore Line costs less 
 >than 3 per cent. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Is that in existence now ? 
 
 Mr. Blanchard. It is now in existence, in a modified form ; hut it is, 
 :as I said before, to be put upon a co-operative basis. Our second con- 
 tract, that with theErie and Pacific Dispatch, is to be annulled as a per- 
 centage line in April next. 
 
 The Erie and North Shore Line has done quite as large a business as 
 the Great Western Dispatch, which shows that its expense can be pro- 
 portionately reduced still, because the line is- comparatively new. The 
 Great Western Dispatch is over twelve years old. Therefore there is a 
 saving of 6 per cent., certainly, to the stockholders of the Erie Eailway 
 between the two systems, taken from the actual records of our own 
 traffic. The saving of this large percentage of earnings of course enables 
 (us to do better for our stockholders, and, in the gradually reduced rates 
 
TBANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOAJRD. 365 
 
 per ton per mile which all the railway companies of the country are re- 
 ceiving each year as compared with the one before it, enables us, by 
 saving this percentage, to do better for ourselves, and for our transport- 
 ers, and all people who ship property over the road, 
 
 Q. You gave me to-day one or two instances of the success of these 
 fast -freight lines financially. 
 
 A. I will give you those from hearsay ; I have not known the inside 
 history of them. It was suggested to me at *he time the Pennsylvania 
 Company : s Union Fast Freight Line was organized to go to Chicago and 
 assume the agency of that end of the Star Line, as it was called, and as 
 one of the inducements it was suggested to me that their stock would 
 he sold to me at the rate of 50 cents on the dollar. I have understood 
 the person who did go there accepted the stock at the same price, but 
 he was not to sell it at any time within five years. The Pennsylvania 
 Company, as distinguished from the Pennsylvania Eailroad Company, 
 which is the company that has now assumed the leases of all the lines 
 of the Pennsylvania Eailroad west of Pittsburgh, has recently bought 
 the stock of the Union Star Line, as it is called, the fast-freight line 
 which included a branch that was subsequently added to it, called the 
 National Line. I understand that they paid par for that stock. I un- 
 derstand that during the nine or ten years in which it has been running, . 
 large dividends have been regularly declared ; that the mileage upon 
 their cars has constituted an additional item of profit ; and that a large 
 cash surplus was in their treasury. I have also been told that the Empire 
 Line, running over the Pennsylvania Eailroad, which was the limited 
 ^orm of freight-line which I have referred to — that for the freight 
 transported the Empire cars would pay the Pennsylvania Eailroad Com- 
 pany and its connections over the Philadelphia and Erie, and the Allen- 
 town Lines, a fixed rate a ton a mile, which should not be less than one 
 and a half cents, and any surplus they might get over and above that 
 should belong to the company. I have been told that under the 
 operation of that contract, particularly during the war, when the 
 "prices of transportation were high, oil passed over the Philadelphia 
 and Erie Eoad, which paid the Empire Line a very large profit. Their 
 gross profits during that time were very large. 
 
 The Pennsylvania Company, when they assumed the charge of the 
 Union Line, modified it and abandoned the car contract system and the 
 commission system under which it had formerly been working and sub- 
 stituted a modified form of commissions, the exact details of which I 
 have not been advised of. 
 
 Q. Can you give us the names of the various non-co- operative lines 
 running on the great trunk roads between the West and the East ? 
 
 A. As I understand, they now comprise the Merchants' Dispatch, on 
 the New York Central, the Empire Line, on the Philadelphia and Erie, 
 and the Allentown Lines and the National and Union Lines upon the 
 Pennsylvania Eailroad, and the Erie and Pacific Dispatch Line, on the 
 Erie. Some of these lines have recently had their organizations changed, . 
 and what their present detail is I am not able to state. 
 
 Q. What were the inducements on the part of the railroad companies 
 i to enter into contracts with those freight-lines in that way ? 
 i A. Ostensibly to secure the large aggregate of traffic they claimed to 
 control, but in a great many cases a division of profits between the 
 officers of the company and the persons entering into these contracts 
 was effected by judicious distribution of their stock. I do not know of 
 any other inducements that would cause a thoughtful and upright rail- 
 road manager to make such contracts. 
 
366 . TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Q. How will the middle-men or agents be paid under your present 
 system 1 
 
 A. We are able to dispense with perhaps one-third of those men. 
 We retain the good ones and let the bad ones go, paying good ones sal- 
 aries commensurate with the services they perform, but no percentages 
 in any way or form. 
 
 Q. The entire profit that will be received for the transportation of 
 goods east or west will go to the companies 1 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. We should like to know as to the rates where there is prorating 
 done between water and rail. 
 
 A. There are a few which occur to me now as to the proportions which 
 exist between a certain number of miles of water and a certain number 
 of miles of rail. The Baltimore and Ohio company— and I suppose they 
 would not object to my making use of information obtained while in 
 their service, as it would probably be the property of the committee 
 in any case — had an arrangement by which between the Ohio Eiver 
 and Boston the steamship line received 32 per cent, of the rate, and 
 as the rate was made upon three hundred and seventy-five miles, for 
 which the Baltimore and Ohio Kailroad from the Ohio Eiver to Bal- 
 timore being equal to 68 per cent., the remaining 32 per cent, made one 
 hundred and seventy-six miles of rail for about seven hundred and 
 seventy-five miles of actual water transportation, a little less than 1 to 
 4. That is where there is open ocean navigation ; the Baltimore and 
 Ohio company furnishing terminal facilities, which were extensive, at 
 one end, and the steamship company furnishing facilities at the other. 
 Where there is navigation of mixed canal and water, the canal involv- 
 ing payment of toll, the Baltimore and Ohio company had an arrange- 
 ment between Baltimore and New York by which for an actual distance 
 of about two hundred and thirty miles they paid a water -charge of one 
 hundred and twenty-five miles. In other words, the two hundred and 
 thirty miles of water were considered equivalent to one hundred and 
 thirty miles of rail. 
 
 The Erie company now has an arrangement by which its rates from 
 Buffalo to Boston by the outside steamers from New York are divided 
 to allow the steamers 28 per cent, of the rate which, on five hundred 
 miles, would be equivalent to one hundred and forty miles of rail for 
 about four hundred and fifty miles of actual water transportation. Be- 
 tween Parkersburgh and Cincinnati, being still a somewhat different form 
 of water transportation and subject to the rise and fall of the water, 
 they paid for a water-haul of about two hundred and fifty miles the 
 same as one hundred and twenty-five miles of rail. We have contracts 
 with our steamboats on the lakes, where the Brie Railway Company fur- 
 nishes the terminal facilities at Buffalo or Dunkirk, as the case maybe, 
 and the steamboat furnishes the terminal facilities as the other end or 
 the lake port, by which we average the mileage to be allowed to them 
 from Buffalo to Cleveland, Toledo, and Detroit at 25 per cent, of the 
 rate. Our distance, therefore, being four hundred and twenty-three 
 miles, would make their mileage in the neighborhood of one hundred and 
 forty miles for an actual water transportation varying from one hundred 
 and fifteen to two hundred and fifty miles. To points upon Lake Michi- 
 gan, notably Milwaukee and Chicago, the actual water distance being 
 about one thousand miles, we allow them one-third of the rate from 
 New York ; and four hundred and twenty-three miles, our actual distance 
 to Buffalo, being two-thirds, the other third would be, of course, a half 
 of that, which would be two hundred a,nd fwAlv« miino T™a<vH/»ailv_ 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 367 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. From Buffalo to Chicago? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I spoke to Mr. Davis this afternoon about the divisions 
 to Du Luth. I found that those divisions were made up to allow us 
 east of Buffalo precisely the same that we give on Chicago business, 
 and that it is not a percentage basis, but that it will amount to 
 nearly double the Chicago rate to Du Luth, so that practically the lake 
 line has about four hundred and seventy-five to five hundred miles, the 
 distance being about the same ae to Chicago. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Have yon never furnished any prorating in the case of the canal? 
 A. No, sir ; I have not. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. In your contracts with express lines state generally what you charge 
 them for the use of cars, and just what you do in regard to the division 
 of profits. 
 
 A. The contract that the Erie company now has with the United States 
 Express Company is one by which 60 per cent, of the receipts for the 
 transportation of express goods between Buffalo and New York belong 
 to the railway company, and the remaining 40 per cent, to the United 
 States Express Company. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. What do they furnish 1 
 
 A, For the CO per cent, we furnish all of the motive-power and the 
 men to load and unload the heavy classes of freight. We take risks 
 for losses and damages which may be the result of gross negligence on 
 the part of our own employes. For their 40 per cent, they furnish the 
 teams with which the goods are collected at the terminal point and by 
 which they are delivered at the other point, the messengers who attend 
 to the property during its transportation, the making of the-way bills, 
 the responsibility for all the collection of freights and charges, and the 
 responsibility also for any losses, damages, detention, or errors that may 
 occur through the faults or actions of their own agent. 
 
 Q. Do they allow anything out of the 40 per cent, for the use of cars? 
 
 A. Kb, sir. The express companies have contracts that vary with 
 almost all the railways. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. This, then, is an exceptional contract? 
 
 A. Ours has been perhaps until within a few years an exceptional 
 form of contract, but it is gradually coming to be more in use than here- 
 tofore. Other companies charge a fixed rate per day, and allow them a 
 certain amount of tonnage per day. For instance, they will allow 
 10,000 pounds in the direction in which the heaviest bulk of property 
 usually moves and 5,000 pounds in the return direction, and for those 
 facilities they will charge a fixed sum per day ; and any amount of ton- 
 nage in either direction in excess of the allowance made, is charged at 
 a rate per 100 pounds, which is usually about one and a half times the 
 first-class rate of the local freight tariffs of the company by which the 
 freight is transported. 
 
 By the CHAIRMAN : 
 
 Q. What is the effect of the sleeping-car companies upon the rail- 
 road? 
 
 Mr. Blanchard. I think that, like all these parasites which attach 
 
368 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 themselves to railroads, sleeping-car companies are of questionable 
 advantage to the railroad companies themselves. The result of the 
 transportation of sleeping-cars has been that all this ornamentation and 
 sumptuousness that you observe in the interior and in the running of 
 these cars has been obtained at the expense of the railroads; first by 
 the enormous weight which we are required to haul over our road at 
 very high rates of speed, and as inciting similar outlays in day cars. 
 In the next place, I believe in the railroad company furnishing sucli 
 facilities as they may be able to do for all the travel, and charging, 
 instead of such a large sum as is charged by those sleeping-car compa- 
 nies, a moderate amount for the same facilities. It seems to me to be a 
 fair contrast that one pays more for a sleeping-couch from New York to 
 Pittsburgh than the Fifth Avenue Hotel would charge for board for an 
 entire day, where you get the servant required to answer your bells and 
 perform all the services needed, and that of itself ought to show the 
 large profit that they have. The charges are, in our judgment, exces- 
 sive for furnishing those facilities, and we desire, if possible, to modify 
 them. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What have been the inducements heretofore for making those con- 
 tracts so largely ? 
 
 A. Mainly the fact that the parties offering to make these contracts 
 held the patents, which were well-nigh exclusive. Competition has re- 
 quired that the Erie company, for instance, should have, as against the 
 Central and Pennsylvania roads, equal facilities and comfort for its 
 passengers, and when it tried to get those these patents stood in the way 
 of independent sleeping-cars. 
 
 By Mr. CONKLiNG : 
 
 Q. Are your statements about sleeping-cars applicable substantially 
 to drawing-room cars also? 
 
 A. They are practically the same thing. The charges for drawing- 
 room cars are not, perhaps, as excessive as those for sleeping-coaches. 
 
 Q. What is the explanation of the fact that in the drawing-room cars, 
 if you go to a certain point, buying your chair to that point, and when 
 you reach there get out and get in again, or else change your mind with- 
 out getting out and go on a hundred miles farther, that you are charged 
 less than some other man who buys his chair to begin with from termini 
 to termini ? 
 
 A. I do not know of any such case or any reason why it should be 
 so. 
 
 Q. Is there any reason why it should be so ? 
 
 A. None that occurs to me. 
 
 Q. Is there any reason why people going to places more than fifty 
 miles apart should pay the same rate for a chair? Say two people start 
 from New York, for example, if the railroad in question should lead from 
 New York, and go one fifty miles farther than the other, is there any 
 , reason why the man who goes fifty miles, the less distance, should pay 
 as much as the other man? 
 
 * A. No, sir ; I should say not. It has, however, been customary and 
 in some cases necessary to block off these distances in stations of twenty- > 
 five miles or more, and inasmuch as there must be a line drawn some- 
 where, as they argue, all those charges being fixed by those sleeping- 
 coach companies, they have to fix it, and they do fix it, atabout twenty- 
 five miles. In some cases at fifty miles. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 369 
 
 Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Do you know of any instance where railroads have put inferior 
 passenger-coaches on in order to force passengers into these coaches, 
 where the extra charge is made ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I do not know of any such case, although I imagine some 
 companies must have some such mental reservations, judging from the 
 comparisons in cars which their trains afford. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. It has been stated that that has been done in order to 
 have an extra payment of a dollar or two dollars. 
 
 The Chairman : 
 
 Q. We have never heard any complaint from your company with refer- 
 ence to the compensation allowed by the Government for carrying the 
 mails and postal cars. What are your views on that subject f 
 
 A. At the time that discussion was going about among railroads I 
 had nothing to do with it. I know that our company at that time had 
 no postal cars on its line, but upon an examination of the figures sub- 
 mitted by the Philadelphia, Wilmington and Baltimore Eoad and other 
 companies, who had run them, and looking carefully into their results, 
 we concurred entirely in their view, that the compensation allowed by 
 the Government was inadequate, and not as much per ton in some cases 
 as we were getting for the transportation of flour from Buffalo to New 
 York. 
 
 Q. What do you estimate the relative difference in the cost of carry- 
 ing, at the rate of eight and ten miles an hour, slow-freight speed and 
 express ? 
 
 A. I doubt if any reliable data can ever be submitted to you. It de- 
 pends so much on the curvature of the road, its grade, the price of fuel, 
 the condition of track, and the exact differences of speed, the time you 
 stop at stations, the construction of cars, and a thousand other things 
 that make all those statistics, wherever you find them, purely theoreti- 
 cal. I would not undertake to answer it. 
 
 Q. Could you form any idea of the advantages to be gained by a 
 double-track freight railroad, used exclusively for freight purposes, over 
 the existing system of transportation? 
 
 A. I have never given that subject attention, indeed. I have never 
 thought of it, and an answer must be intelligent or worthless. 
 
 The committee here adjourned. 
 
 Eichmond, VA., October 22, 1873. 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment. 
 
 Statement of Gen. Thomas 8. Bocock, of Lyncliburgh, Va. 
 
 Mr. Chairman : I desire to say that I. came here without any purpose 
 of making any formal or extended argument to the committee in rela- 
 tion to the great question we have so much at heart, but merely, at the 
 request of my friends in Lynchburgh, to welcome this committee, and to 
 assure them that the people of the State, with, perhaps, less division of 
 opinion than has existed on almost any other question, feel a deep inter- 
 est in the completion of the canal which commences here and is to ter- 
 minate on the Ohio Eiver. 
 
 I am not an internal-improvement man. I have devoted myself to 
 r AXS 
 
370 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 other pursuits, and am not furnished witb facts and figures P™P«f tobe 
 used on such an occasion. I can, therefore, give you only a tew general 
 views in relation to this matter. n y. n „t +\,\ a m „ +t 
 
 I said to you that our people are deeply concerned about this matter, 
 and earnestly desire, almost without division of opinion— there may be 
 one here and another there who have some old-fashioned notions, but 
 the number who dissent are fewer than I have ever known on any ques- 
 tion before. You know there is no proposition that can be proposed on 
 which there will not be some little division. We desire it, of course, 
 first on our own account. We think that the completion of this canal 
 would be of immense benefit to Virginia and West Virginia in various 
 respects. The fact that water communication is cheaper, better, and 
 more eligible than railroad communication is now, I think, fully demon- 
 strated. The mind of scientific and practical men through the civilized 
 world has been directed to it for some years past, and I thinn it is now 
 clearly-established that water communication properly conducted is a 
 better mode of transportation than railroad communication, for heavy 
 articles at any rate. We, at this time, in our peculiar situation— and if 
 I say anything in this connection that may seem to infringe upon the 
 field of politics, I beg to assure you it is no disposition to say anything 
 in the least discordant to any gentleman here ; I know too much of what 
 is due to gentlemen who are engaged in such business as this to be capa- 
 ble of such a thing — but you know that, owing to circumstances that 
 are in the knowledge of us all, the industrial interest of our part of the 
 country is somewhat depressed. A great change in our labor system 
 has occurred. We have stood it as well as we could, but any such 
 change must, under any circumstances, in any country, be attended 
 with circumstances of depression. What we need now in Virginia is 
 the development of our resources, or more diversity in our pursuits. 
 Agriculture was our old business in the former state of things. The 
 cultivation of the land, raising tobacco, wheat, &c, constituted almost 
 the entire business of our country, with a little intermingling of State 
 rights politics. But the business of the country was in the cultivation 
 of the land — in agriculture. We find now that it is necessary to bring 
 the agriculturist and the manufacturer face to face and diversify our 
 pursuits ; to have something like a system of manufactures in our coun- 
 try. One great desideratum for that is to develop our iron and coal, 
 and bring them to points where they can be utilized. We have in our 
 western country, and the upper part of old Virginia, immense beds of 
 coal and iron that, by water communication, we could bring to conve- 
 nient points and engage there in manufactures. 
 
 Then, the fact that we would have these means of transportation 
 would encourage our people, bring us in more immediate connection 
 with other parts of the country, would increase our commercial impor- 
 tance. Goods could be carried by those means to West Virginia, and, 
 perhaps, to the Northwestern States. It would build us up as a ship- 
 ping people, as a great commercial people. Norfolk and Richmond 
 might become large importing places. We would hope so, because by 
 means of this canal we could send our goods and the products of our 
 commercial labor more cheaply to the people of the Northwest, the peo- 
 ple of our part of the State, and West Virginia. 
 
 Another great reason why we want the canal built is that it is of 
 great importance to the people of the Northwest. If you look at the 
 map you will find that through Virginia is the near approach to water, 
 I think, from almost the entire of Ohio, of Illinois, of Indiana, and from 
 the Northwest down until you get away up in the region of the lakes. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 371 
 
 If you make a computation you will find that it is cheaper to the sea- 
 shore and harbor ; a shorter distance to deep water through Virginia 
 than by any other route that you can select. I am not advocating this 
 route to the exclusion of others, but ouly showing its advantages, uot 
 for the purpose of operating against any other route. Then, while we 
 do not wish to interfere with the northern routes, which have been 
 established and always will be traversed, yet we have this little advan- 
 tage of them, that it is nearer from those Northwestern States to deep 
 water, and we lie in a more temperate climate where we are not inter- 
 rupted in the winter by ice, &c. That, 1 think, is the great point. The 
 Northwest is the great producing part of our country, where the grain is 
 made more cheaply, and there it lies, because it is so expensive to get 
 it to market that it does not pay ; but by these means you can get to 
 market more cheaply ; and it seems to me that every year that passes 
 creates a greater demand for grain in the Old World. 
 
 The wheat-crop in England has fallen more short of feeding the 
 people in the last three or four years than for a long time. And the 
 depression of agricultural business there makes it a great object of de- 
 sire to bring the productions of this country in a position in which they 
 can get most cheaply to the European market. If they have it, if this 
 is a nearer route than any other, if the produce of the Northwest can 
 get to the markets of the world better in this way than any other, we 
 think it would be for the interest of all the people to have this route 
 opened. As I say, we do not oppose any of them ; have no contest to 
 make. The northern routes are established ; if there are other soul h- 
 ern routes, good ; we do not go against them. 
 
 Now, we cannot do this ourselves. This is a great national work. 
 We do not advocate it now as a Virginia work, but as a great national 
 highway. We want to submit it to the use of the public, have it free 
 of expense, so that all the produce of the Northwest and West can come 
 along it as free of expense as possible. And from that point of view we 
 think it is eminently a fit subject for the Government of the United 
 States to take hold of. It is proper that the Government of the United 
 States should take hold of a great national work like this, and aid in 
 having it made for the benefit of the country. 
 
 Then, we think that at this particular time this will be one of a series 
 of measures, some of which have been already initiated, that would 
 tend to restore harmony, good will, and peace to our country. No mat- 
 ter what has been our differing opinions upon the issues of the past, I 
 have no doubt every man here regrets, and every patriot in the land 
 regrets, that there is any cause whatsoever now of any alienation be- 
 tween the men of the South and the North, between the man of Vir- 
 ginia and South Carolina and the man of the Northwest, and there is 
 not a patriotic heart within the whole limits of the Union that would 
 not desire, if it could be done, that the last vestige of any feeling of 
 that sort, of any feeling of discord, of alienation, should be obliterated, 
 and that all should be united again as citizens of a common country, 
 wishing for the common good, and each desiring the promotion of the 
 other. I cannot imagine that there is a patriotic heart in the entire 
 country that does not wish for a state of things when every man in the 
 North would like to hear of the prosperity of the man of the South, 
 and every man in the South would like to hear of the prosperity of the 
 man of the North. The time may have been, and it was natural, that 
 alter such a war as we had there should be some alienation of feeling, 
 some little feeling of heartburning, of resentment. I thank God that, 
 so far as I know about it, that feeling is passing away. We welcome 
 
372 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 you here cordially and our brethren of the North engaged in a work of 
 that sort, as warmly as we would welcome a man from Mississippi or 
 anywhere else. We greet your coming ; we desire to make you comfort- 
 able ; we desire that you shall see all the resources of our State, hear 
 our people, know our condition and wants. I would like to have you 
 know everything about us, see what we consider our grievances, and 
 that we could see you in order that all of these things should be re- 
 moved and an entire feeling of harmony should exist in our country. 
 With that view and with that object the building of that work through 
 our midst would have a very happy effect. Not as a party measure; 
 nobody desires it as a party measure; but as a measure of restoration 
 and for the good of the country through which it goes, the good of the 
 South, of Virginia, of the Northwest, of all; it would hurt nobody and 
 benefit a great many. As I have said, if there be other works farther 
 south or north that come in competition with this, we have nothing in 
 the world to say against them. We want you to compare them with 
 ours. We should be delighted for them all to be made. If you think 
 that the cost of making these works is so great that only a few can be, 
 then we say we submit the relative merits of the cost of improving, the 
 work of making, and, when made, the value to the entire country, and 
 all that sort of thing, to determine which is the best. 
 
 We do not enter into this in the spirit of rivalry at all. We enter 
 into it in a spirit of desire for the greatest good of the greatest number; 
 it is indeed a desire for the good of the entire country. 
 
 I know, one thing that you wish to know about very much is the 
 practicability of this route. I have said I believed it opened up the 
 shortest route for the produce of the Northwest from Ohio to the deep 
 sea. We have the best harbor in the country at Norfolk. If you get 
 there you have access to the markets of the world, and the question is as 
 to the practicability of it. I do not feel very competent to speak upon 
 that subject. I know this — I know that all the eminent engineers that 
 we have evergotten to examine this question, engineers appointed by 
 the company, engineers appointed by the State, engineers appointed by 
 the United States Government, have declared that it is practicable; 
 that a sufficient amount of water can be obtained' to make that canal 
 from here to the waters of the Kanawha. Some gentleman remarked, 
 with a great deal of practical wisdom, that these engineers are apt to 
 think anything practicable; that they can do almost anything; but 
 there could hardly be such an unbroken chain of decision by those en- 
 gineers ; they could hardly be so unanimous, these engineers appointed 
 by everybody, in behalf of the practicability of this route, unless it 
 was so. The United States Government appointed an eminent engi- 
 neer, Major Oraighill of the United States Engineers, to survey this 
 route, and he reports it practicable. I remember, when I was a younger 
 man-than I am now, I was once connected with this company. We had 
 a very eminent engineer here ; Ellet, I think his name was, of New 
 York. He married into one of our families in my section of the State, 
 and was a long time chief engineer of the James River and Kanawha 
 Oanal. He devoted himself very much to the investigation of this 
 question. It was a matter which took hold of his mind, which was a 
 very scientific and acute one, and he wrote a pamphlet in relation to the 
 practicability of supplying water for this connection. The canal crosses 
 the Alleghany Mountains, and he demonstrated to the satisfaction of 
 almost all persons who read his pamphlet that it was practicable and 
 could easily be done, and every engiueer since has made the same re- 
 port. Yon will pass along there, however, as you go out, and we should 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. did 
 
 be very glad if in doing so you could have the aid of some good engi- 
 neer to exhibit to you statements and plans by which your minds could 
 be satisfied that this thing could be done. 
 
 Of course we would not want the Government of the United States 
 to embark money in a scheme like this, and would not want any govern- 
 ment to do it when nothing practicable could be the result. It is simply 
 my judgment, from the opinion and statement of others, that it is a 
 settled matter that it can be done. The question is, can it be done at 
 an expense within reasonable bounds ? 
 
 Now, this is not a work for an hour, a day, or a year, nor for this age. 
 This canal once built is a great highway. It stands like any other great 
 public improvement, established for all time. It is there for all time. 
 There may be some little repairs, but it will constitute a great national 
 thoroughfare that will exist as long as this country exists. Talk about 
 obliterating the Erie Canal ; how could it ever be done away with ? 
 "When this work becomes established, and the trade begins to flow 
 through it, and the different points interested in that trade become ac- 
 quainted with one another, and all the surrounding circumstances con- 
 nected with a trade of that sort becomes established, it is a work for all 
 ages. As long as this country is known, has an existence, and is ou 
 the map, there will be that great work made by the Government of the 
 United States for the benefit of its people. There is a work not for one 
 age, or one generation, but for all time. A little expenditure of money 
 by a great Government like this, so rich in means, ought not to consti- 
 tute a very great objection unless it was an enormous, extravagant, and 
 overwhelming amount. What is a few millions of dollars to the United 
 States Government — a Government. that can pay the interest readily on 
 two or three thousand millions of dollars ? What would it be to add to 
 this temporary debt a matter that could be paid off very readily and in 
 a very short time f 
 
 You were seeing to day one branch of our industry, the manufacture 
 of tobacco. We do not complain ; we would like for it to be otherwise, 
 but we beg leave to remind you that a good deal of your income comes 
 from a tax on our tobacco. I do not know what the motives are ; I do 
 not pretend to intimate that it springs from any feeling of hostility to 
 that branch of industry. Gentlemen very naturally think that it is 
 proper to put a tax on luxuries rather than necessaries. We would 
 like very well, because it is an important part of our interest, that our 
 tax should be less on that, but I am not arguing that subject. A small 
 portion of that tax on tobacco would pay for the establishment of this 
 canal, and then an increase of taxes generally would not be required. 
 So, I say, this work could be done, and nobody, perhaps, in the Union 
 feel the pressure of it; nobody be hurt by it; nobody's taxes increased 
 by it to any appreciable extent, and a great work like that would be 
 established — a great line of intercommunication through a temperate 
 climate, the nearest way to the sea, connecting points so important that 
 the great producing part of the Union, the Northwest, with such a port 
 as Norfolk, through a genial climate and a mild sky. 
 
 By Mr. CoNKLlNa : 
 
 Question. Has Congress, in your view, power to do it; and, .if so, 
 how? 
 
 Answer. We have always held that the mere local works must be left 
 to the State. The great dividing line, the great distinction, we say, is 
 this, that local matters are to be left to the local legislature, and great 
 national works are to be left to the United States Government. That is 
 
374 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 theleading distinction. It is necessary for the United States foi .its par. 
 pose, for the transportation of supplies, as Mr. Davis and Mr. Calliora 
 and others held that the Pacific Railroad was established 
 
 I am aware you have to transport your troops from one part of th B 
 Union to the other, and supplies for those troops likewise, and m doing 
 that you have to make great lines of intercommunication, which can- 
 not be made by States. We hold that you would not have a right to do 
 any local work, making a railroad from one point m a State to another, 
 which is merely local, or establishing a canal merely local, because that 
 is a matter of local concern ; but these matters of great national con- 
 cern for the purpose of opening up commerce between one part of the 
 Union and another part of the Union, and, especially, opening our com- 
 merce between the Union and the -world, are matters of congressional 
 concern. This is not a canal for the purpose of opening up between 
 Virginia and Indiana and Ohio, but to get them to the markets of the 
 world. 
 
 We have refined in past days about this power to regulate commerce, 
 We used to hold in olden times that the power to regulate commerce 
 did not empower to create commerce — to regulate the' commerce between 
 the different States and foreign nations, &c. But if there be produced 
 a trade in the Northwest which cannot get to the markets of the world, 
 and which the Northwestern States cannot make to the markets of the 
 world, or if there is commerce in Virginia which she cannot get to the 
 markets of the world, is it not a fair construction of that clause of the 
 Constitution to let that commerce out to the world? I can say to you 
 that, under the particular circumstances of the case, in the situation 
 we are in, we take a larger view. We have been cautioned so fre- 
 quently that we ought to take a more national view of thiugs, and that 
 we ought to look up to the national Government as a government to 
 take care of us, and do good to us, that we yield a little more than we 
 used to do. 
 
 I do not think the resolutions of 1798 and 1799 are drawn so peremp- 
 torily and rigidly on our side now as we used to do in old times. The con- 
 dition of things has changed, but the Constitution has not changed ; it is 
 what it was once. But it does seem to me that, under a fair construc- 
 tion of the power to regulate commerce, if there be commerce which 
 cannot otherwise get out to the markets of the world, if there exists 
 production which cannot get to the markets of the world except by the 
 construction of a great work, and that work not a local work, and uot 
 within the bosom of a State and for State purposes only, that the Gen- 
 eral Government has a right to help it. 
 
 Q. In applying that to this case, in your opinion, Congress has power 
 within the limits of the Constitution to make this canal and slack-water 
 navigation in question four hundred and twenty miles? 
 
 A. I think they have the right to make whatever improvement is 
 necessary. 
 
 Q. This very improvement I am talking about ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; this very improvement. How do you view it yourself? 
 
 Q. I am seeking and not giving information. I desired to know what 
 you thought upon that branch of the subject. 
 
 A. I think that the trade of the Northwest and of West Virginia has 
 the right to get out, and I say that the mode of letting it out is not 
 within the power of the State. 
 
 Supposing there was a little State like that on the top of the Pyrenees 
 Mountains, situated right in the heart of our country, a State producing 
 an immense quantity of products of every sort; it would not have the 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 375 
 
 meaus to cut a way out for itself, but ought not the General Govern- 
 ment to superintend the national concern, to make a way for its outlet 
 of trade ? It could be done without hurting it. If it be not the regu- 
 lation of commerce, it is the creation of commerce to be regulated, and 
 implies the regulation of commerce between the States. The exact 
 meaning of the phrase " to regulate commerce between the States " it is 
 difficult to arrive at, but it sometimes, to some extent, implies the idea 
 of facilitating commerce. There is no doubt of that, or of putting com- 
 merce in motion. If there be the means of commerce which ought to be 
 utilized, which are necessary for the welfare of a State,' the idea of reg- 
 ulating that commerce implies the putting that commerce in operation, 
 putting it in a situation in which it would be subject to rules and regu- 
 lations. My own impression is now that the great dividing-line between 
 what Congress may or may not do about commerce is, that works 
 which are merely local, merely domestic, interesting a particular part of 
 the country solely or particularly, ought to be within the limits of State 
 jurisdiction, while national works that are for the good of a great part 
 of the country, and cannot be made by any particular part of the 
 country, ought to- be under the jurisdiction of Congress. I merely, 
 however, wish to impress on your mind the idea that we were very 
 much concerned about this matter; that we are greatly desirous that 
 it should be done ; that we do it, not in any party or political sense, 
 but for the good of all branches of the country, no matter what politics. 
 We do it for the good of all, though we think that our immediate good is 
 deeply concerned. 
 
 By Mr. jSoewood : 
 
 Q. On the subject of the power of Congress to act, allow me to ask 
 you whether you think that Congress derives any power from that clause 
 in the Constitution which authorizes it to legislate for the general wel- 
 fare and the public good ? I do not know that I give you the exact lan- 
 guage of the clause. 
 
 A. I remember what it is. I have been raised in a school, whether 
 for good or evil, that believed that that was a clause restrictive upon 
 other clauses and not an independent clause in itself ; that it qualified 
 the power of Congress to exercise other specific powers, and that Con- 
 gress could not undertake to do exactly anything that they thought was 
 for the public good. 
 
 There are certain restrictions, in the first place, upon the power of 
 Congress, which Congress cannot do by the very terms of the Consti- 
 tution. They could not confer a title of nobility. If it was thought 
 that the use of that order in this country would benefit the public they 
 could not do it, because there is a positive restriction in that respect. 
 So on many other things I might mention. Then of the substantive 
 powers which have been given by Congress, they can exercise them pro- 
 vided they think that the public good requires 'it. I would derive the> 
 power from the war power of Congress and from the power of Congress 
 to regulate commerce. The two powers in this come together. The 
 general power of Congress to establish such works as would enable it 
 to carry on its operations, to prepase for the great business that it has 
 to do, to move troops, to send supplies to troops, &c, and then to let 
 the means of commerce, the elements of commerce that exist, be vital- 
 ized, and rendered efficient, and thus be brought under the power of 
 Congress to regulate commerce. 
 
376 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By Mr. Shebman : 
 
 Q. I wish to ask whether the existing canal is the property of the 
 State of Virginia *? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I think not. 
 
 Q. Is there any corporate right ? , 
 
 A. Yes, sir: there are corporate rights ; private stockholders. The 
 State of Virginia, however, bas a controlling interest 111 it. There are 
 a number of private stockholders in it. 
 By Mr. CqnelinG : 
 
 Q The State owns about seven millions, does it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and the State has debts on the canal which would enable 
 them to control it at any moment. 
 By Mr. Sheeman : 
 
 Q. Suppose the Government of the United States should undertake 
 to aid in the construction of this work, how could these private rights 
 be extinguished so as to make it a Government property 1 
 
 A. There would be no difficulty about that. In the first place we . 
 could close out a mortgage and sell it out and get control of it in that 
 way, and in the next place we could get in the private stock at a nomi- 
 nal sum. It is not considered worth much. It pays no income, and I 
 do not know that there is any quoted value to the stock. 
 
 Q. It is a corporation now under the laws of Virginia ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I do not think the stock would sell for one per cent. 
 There are mortgages upon it to secure debts due to the State that would 
 enable the State to sell it out at any moment. The State would take 
 care of that. There would be no difficulty on that subject. (To Mr. 
 Norwood.) I suppose the clause of the Constitution which you spoke 
 of is that which enables Congress to promote the public good and pro- 
 vide for the general welfare. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Your idea is that that clause is not simply superlative and unnec- 
 essary, but that it is positive in its character and actsas an inhibition 
 on certain powers of Congress. 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it is a clause attached to the other clauses and qualifies 
 the right to apply the other clauses. That has been our view, that we 
 have a right to do a certain thing, and to do it at a time when, and in a 
 manner in which, it will be for the public good and promote the general 
 welfare. We have always thought that it would be giving Congress 
 almost unlimited power if you let them do exactly what they thought 
 for the public good — to make their own discretion the measure of their 
 power and not the Constitution. If we had the Constitution here I 
 would undertake to show how it is connected with the other clauses, 
 but so far as we are now concerned we are not very scrupulous. If the 
 gentlemen of the committee or our Congress of the United States think 
 there is any clause that enables them to do the thing, we want the 
 thing done. We are for the thing now, and not particular about decid- 
 ing the clause, under which it may be done. 
 
 Col. We P. Ceaighill, Maj. U. S. Corps of Engineers, was then 
 called. 
 
 The chairman stated that Colonel Craighill appeared before the com.' 
 mittee at his request. 
 Colonel Craighill said : 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 377 
 
 Mr. Chairman, I propose to make a brief statement concerning the 
 central water-line, and while so doing I will refer in passing to several 
 maps which I have procured from the Engineer Bureau of the War De- 
 partment, and have brought to exhibit to the committee in accordance 
 with the written request of the chairman. The largest map shows the 
 whole route from the capes of Chesapeake Bay to the Ohio Eiver at 
 Point Pleasant, at the mouth of the Great Kanawha Eiver. 
 
 The object of the " central water-line" is to make a continuous navi- 
 gable communication by water from the Ohio Eiver, at the mouth of the' 
 Great Kanawha Eiver, to Chesapeake Bay, at the mouth of the James 
 Eiver. 
 
 The first surveys aloug this route were made in 1817-1819, contemplat- 
 ing a slack- water navigation for boats of about 2 feet draught, with a 
 connecting pike-road over the mountain. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. What were the termini of the pike-road f 
 
 Colonel Craighill. I am not able to point out the precise points. 
 Covington was probably one terminus. The chief engineer of the Ches- 
 apeake and Ohio Eailroad, who is present, will doubtless be able to say 
 what was the original extent of the railroad which was in later years pro- 
 posed in place of the common wagon-road. I have understood that 
 General Washington projected the connection of the head- waters of the 
 James and Kanawha Eivers by means of a common wagon-road or pike. 
 
 The Chairman. Where are General Washington's recommendations 
 on that subject to be found ? 
 
 Colonel Craighill. I am unable now to indicate where they are re- 
 corded. 
 
 Mr. Carrington. They are in the documents now in the possession 
 of the committee. I will point them out. His letter will be found pub- 
 lished in one of these documents. 
 
 Colonel Craighill. The next surveys were made in 1826-1828 for a 
 continuous canal and slack-water navigation by Captain McNeil, U. S. 
 Topographical Engineers. That is the first occasion of which I am in- 
 formed when the United States Government evinced a special interest 
 in the matter. Other surveys have been made since McNeil's time, but 
 his general location is still found to be the best. The line commences at 
 Kichmond, with a large dock and tide- water connections ; thence up the 
 James Eiver through Lynchburgh to Buchanan, one hundred and ninety- 
 six and one-half miles, including one hundred and fifty-nine and three- 
 quarters miles of canal, and thirty-six and three-quarters miles of slack- 
 water navigation, which is now completed and in working order; 
 thence it follows up the valleys of the James and Jackson Eivers to 
 Covington, a distance of forty-seven miles, of which forty-one miles is 
 canal and six slack-water. This portiou has been definitively lo- 
 cated, and its execution was contracted for some years ago, but it is 
 not entirely completed. From Covington, the line, as projected, as- 
 cended Dunlap's Creek as a canal, and followed Fork Eun to the sum- 
 mit-level, where it pierced the mountain by a tunnel two and six-tenths 
 miles long at an elevation of 1,916 feet above tide-water. It descended 
 thence the valleys of Tuckahoe and Howard's Creeks by canal to the 
 Greenbrier and New Eivers, down which, as well as down the Kanawha, 
 slack- water navigation was projected to the Ohio, a distance of two 
 hundred miles, making a total distance from Eichmond of four hundred 
 and eighty-six and thirteen one-hundredths miles. Special surveys were 
 also made from time to time of the Greenbrier, New, and Kanawha 
 Eivers and their head-waters, as well as those of the James Eiver, by 
 such men as Ellet, Gill, Fisk, and Lorraine. In 1868, Mr. Lorraine, the 
 
378 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 chief engineer of the company, in order* to avoid the large number of 
 kTcks required to attain this summit-level and to save the time necessary 
 for passing them, proposed a new location for the summit, which, by the 
 use of a longer tunnel, reduced the elevation of the summit-level 216 
 feet, thus making it 1,700 feet above tide. This change also saved three 
 and one-half miles in actual length of canal and about forty miles of 
 equated length by saving lockages. This reduction in the height of the 
 summit-level gives also the advantage of tapping the water-shed 216 
 feet lower than the McNiel summit, and thus making available a large 
 additional amount of water for the use of the summit-level. 
 
 In 1S70 Congress directed further examinations of the route of the 
 James Eiver and Kanawha Canal. These were made under my general 
 supervision. Mr. W. G. Turpin was placed in charge of the re-examina- 
 tion of the line of the canal from Eichmond to Buchanan, with a view to 
 a determination of the cost of its enlargement. To Mr. William B. Button 
 was assigued the duty of reinvestigating the question of continuing the 
 communication by water from the end of the old canal to the waters of 
 the Ohio Eiver. 
 
 Eeport was made January 27, 1871, for which see Executive Docu- 
 ment No. 110, House of Bepresentatives, Forty-first Congress, third 
 session. 
 
 Additional surveys were made by Mr. Lorraine, under my direction, in 
 1872. Special report on the Kanawha will be found in print in Bxecu- 
 tis r e Document No. 25, Senate, Forty-second Congress, third session, 
 page 44, &c. Further report on the canal was made April 11, 1873, 
 which is not now in print, but will, it is supposed, be submitted to> 
 Congress at the opening of the next session. 
 
 The Lorraine tunnel, as located from the survey of 1870, leaves Fork 
 Eun 216 feet lower than the McNeil tunnel, and strikes the valley of 
 Howard's Creek, near the mouth of that creek, on the other side of the 
 ridge, at the same distance (216 feet) below the level of the McNeil 
 tunnel. The canal thence continues down Howard's Creek to the 
 Greenbrier Eiver. From the mouth of Howard's Creek the navigation 
 is no longer by canal, but by slack- water, (except in two short sections, 
 where the canal is necessary,) passing down the Greenbrier to New 
 Eiver, and down the New Eiver to the Kanawha at a point, taint Creek 
 Shoal, about eighty miles from its mouth. From this point to the 
 mouth of the river open navigation is proposed, the fall in the river to 
 be equalized by low dams, with sluices to permit the passage of steam- 
 boats. 
 
 The dimensions of the existing canal from Eichmond to Buchanan are 
 50 feet width at water-line, 5 feet depth, locks 100 feet long, and 15 feet 
 wide. The dimensions proposed for the enlarged canal are a width 
 of 70 feet, a depth of 7 feet, with locks 120 feet by 20. This will accom- 
 modate boats of 280 tons, drawing 6 feet water. These are the dimen- 
 sions of the Brie Canal. She estimated cost of the work, after surveys 
 and computations by experienced engineers, is $50,000,000. 
 
 Some persons have doubted whether the water supply was sufficient 
 to keep the summit-level full. I will add a few words on that particular 
 point. In order that all reasonable doubts on that subject might be 
 removed, Mr. B. Lorraine spent an entire year (1851-1852) in gauging 
 the streams and surveying the country in the vicinity of the summit- 
 level. (See his report, page 56 of Executive Document No. 110, already 
 mentioned.) The map of his survey is here spread out before the commit- 
 tee. He located and calculated the capacity of a reservoir on Anthony's 
 Creek, which, in addition to the' water furnished by the Upper Green- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 379 
 
 Ibrier, gives a surplus of more than thirty-five hundred millions of cubic 
 feet in a year, which is considerably more than a full half-year's supply 
 'for the summit-level, and this upon the supposition of its constant use by 
 .boats passing in both directions. (See page 19 of Executive Document 
 JSb. 110, already referred to.) 
 
 I Some persons have doubted also whether the long tunnel could be ex- 
 cavated within a reasonable time, and for the sum it is estimated to 
 'cost. This is not a matter left to mere conjecture, but the reasons for 
 believing that the tunnel is a work of easy execution at a reasonable 
 cost are these: The Mont Cenis tunnel is of about the same length as 
 the Lorraine tunnel, and has been finished. If the circumstances of the 
 two were similar, the second could be much more readily carried through 
 than the first, as all the failures, &c, of the first would be avoided en- 
 tirely in the second. But the circumstances are much more favorable 
 for the Lorraine tunnel. At Mont Cenis, the tunnel was so deep. below 
 the surface that vertical shafts could not be sunk for the purpose of re- 
 moving material, or of relieving the excavation of percolating water by 
 the use of pumps, or of giving ventilation. All material was necessarily 
 taken out at the two ends. At the Lorraine tunnel there are places 
 actually located for six shafts, varying in depth from 300 to 700 feet, 
 the greatest distance between any two of them being 7,500 feet. Instead, 
 then, of making but one long tunnel, it is really making seven shorter 
 ones of moderate length, which can be carried forward from each end of 
 each. The Mont Cenis tunnel is 26 feet wide by 25 feet high. The 
 Lorraine tunnel is to be 52 feet wide by 34 feet high. It might be sup- 
 posed that the large size of the latter would increase very much both 
 the time and expense of its execution. It is not so. One of the chief 
 difficulties in tunneling is the contracted space for working. In the 
 large tunnel a greater force can work. There will be a much larger 
 face of rock to work against. The case will approximate to that of 
 working in an ordinary quarry of rock with a good presentation of sur- 
 face to attack. It is computed that at a rate of progress of but one-half 
 what has been actually made at the Mont Cenis tunnel, the Lorraine 
 tunnel would be complete in six years. The experience of the engineers 
 and contractors, who have been engaged in making the deep cuts and 
 long tunnels of the Chesapeake and Ohio Eailroad, in the immediate 
 vicinity of the site of the Lorraine tunnel, has been also availed of in 
 fixing the cost and rate of work in that tunnel, although, in order to 
 have the estimate full, a rate of progress has been assumed as the basis 
 of the estimate less than what has been actually made by them in the 
 samelocality, and the price per yard has been on the other hand assumed 
 as much larger than they have actually found such work to cost. The 
 Mont Cenis tunnel cost $1,000 per lineal yard. The Hoosac $900. The 
 estimate for the Lorraine tunnel is $975. It will probably cost less. 
 When the proper appliances had been obtained at the Mont Cenis 
 tunnel, the result of experience, the cost was reduced to $500 per 
 linear yard. There is no doubt that if the operations at the Hoosac 
 tunnel had always been under proper control, the cost there would 
 have been far less than $900 per linear yard. 
 
 In conclusion I will take the liberty of reading a short opinion given 
 by Mr. B. H. Latrobe, one of the most distinguished engineers in this 
 or any country, who has had the peculiar experience of being the con- 
 sulting engineer on the Hoosac tunnel in one of the most favorable 
 periods of its progress, and also personally studied on the ground the 
 work at Mont Cenis. 
 
380 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Before reading it, I will state that when that opinion was written, it 
 was supposed the tunnel would be nearly ten miles long . 
 
 Baltimore, May 1 1868, 
 
 „ „ t ■ j. f „„,,,, i„h-«t of the 30tli ultimo, and of the map and re- 
 
 J?Z!m»^"^°Z ^^ «fe most specific information yo/are.bL 
 L give me a to th^e profile of the proposed long tunnel at the summit-level of tbe 
 James River and Kanawha Canal. I would, of course, have liked tohavehad before mean 
 accurate longitudinal section of the line of the tunnel, hut the heights above tide 
 shown upon the topographical map, and the projection of the position of the work 
 thereon, enable me to lay what follows in the way of an opinion, which, if it will assist 
 vou in recommending the enterprise, I shall feel glad to have given, desiring, as I do, 
 the success of every effort to improve the communications ol our common country, 
 aside from all localmterest. . 
 
 I cannot hesitate to pronounce the proposed tunnel of ten miles in length entirely prac- 
 ticable nor do I doubt that, for the reasons assigned in your letter to me, it would lie 
 expedient to adopt it instead of the shorter one of two and six-tenths miles. The as- 
 sumed summit-level of the canal being 1,700 feet above tide, and the highest anrface-ele- 
 vation at the top of the Alleghany Mountain over the tunnel being but 2,606 feet above 
 tide, if one or more shafts had to be sunk, even at points as high as this, they would 
 still'be not excessive in depth. I judge, however, from an inspection of the map, that 
 if the line of the tunnel be curved as you suggest, to which I see no serions objection, 
 (the radii being large,) the extreme depth of shaft need not exceed 600 or 700 feet, 
 and the average depth about 400 feet. If, then, we assume a shaft in each mile, we can 
 estimate the time required to execute the work with some certainty. Experience in 
 sinking the deep central shaft of the Hoosac tunnel, of 1,030 feet in depth, has shown 
 that iu the mica-slate rock of that mountain a speed of 25 feet per month can be 
 made in drilling by hand-labor and blasting with common gunpowder. In the clay- 
 slates and sandstones of the Alleghany Mountain, Ibelieve that aprogress of from 30 to 
 40 feet per month could be effected, even by hand-drilling, and considerably niore.by 
 machine-drills and nitro-glycerine. If we assume, then, but 33£ feet per month, ten 
 shafts of 400 feet average depth can be sunk'iu twelve months after beingfairly started, 
 and as they may be simultaneously begun and finished, the work of drifting horizon- 
 tally in the body of the tunnel could be commenced at two faces in each shaft, or 
 twenty faces in the whole ten shafts, supposing the whole tunnel to be taken ont 
 through the shafts, and allowing nothing for the approach-cuts. There would then 
 be a half-mile to drive each way from each shaft ; at an average rate of but 100 feet per 
 month, the several workings would meet in twenty-six and four-tenths months, or a little 
 over two years. Adding to this the twelve months employed in sinking the shafts, 
 we have three years and two and four-tenths months, and with a further addition of 
 enough time for preparation and contingencies to make up four year3, the work conld 
 be finished and in operation at the end of that period. It may seem incredible that a 
 ten-mile tunnel could be finished iu any such time, and if the time already spent at 
 the Hoosac and at Mont Cenis be taken as settling the question, it would be at once 
 decided adversely to this estimate. But we must look at the recent progress of these 
 works, with the advantage of. the experience earned by them and now available to a 
 new scheme of similar character, and not to tbe average progress, including the delays 
 attendant upon mistakes made in the outset, aud the defects of the labor-saving ma- 
 chinery which has since been perfected and is now realizing such vastly improved 
 results. 
 
 Having driven more than one tunnel in slates and sandstones, such as will be met 
 with in the Alleghany tuDnel you have projected, I am well acquainted with tbe char- 
 acter of those rocks, and know that very rapid progress can be made in them. The 
 strike and dip of the strata at your locality are also as favorable as possible to safe and 
 speedy working. I assume that the most improved drilling-machine will be used, and 
 that, as suggested in my last report upon the Hoosac tunnel, which you have, the whole 
 section be taken out at once, without any preliminary " heading," which can be readily 
 done with drill-carriages properly constructed for the purpose. I also suppose that 
 nitro-glycerine would be used as the explosive, although that would not be necessary 
 to insure a progress of 100 feet per month, much more than which has been effected 
 with gunpowder, both at Mont Cenis (where as much as 272 feet per month has been 
 accomplished) and at the Hoosac, where 131 feet has been driven in a much harder and 
 tougher rook than either that of Mont Cenis or the Alleghany Mountain. 
 
 As much water may be encountered in your long tunnel, tlie most effective means of 
 raising it must be provided, and for this no engine can be compared with the Cornish 
 engine, (of the " bull " form,) placed at the top of the shaft. The hoisting and ventilat- 
 ing machinery must, of course, be of the most approved form, aud, in short, all the 
 operations within and without the tunnel made to harmonize in the most perfect 
 manner. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 381 
 
 In conclusion, I -will add that I have never felt, in giving a professional opinion, 
 more perfect confidence in its soundness, and the certainty with which the results pre- 
 dicted can he realized. 
 
 I am, dear sir, yours, respectfully and truly, 
 
 ' ' " ' BENJ. H. LATROBE, 
 
 Civil Mngineer. 
 E. Lorraine, Esq., 
 
 Engineer and Superintendent James River and Kanawha Canal, Richmond, Va. 
 
 The map now in my hand shows the results of the survey of the 
 ground in which the long tunnel is located ; the curved line is the loca- 
 tion of the tunnel; its profile is shown on this large map. This is the 
 result of actual surveying, not mere .conjecture. The survey was made 
 iu 1870 under the authority of the United States. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. A survey made under your direction and by the authority 
 of the United States'? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. It is perhaps proper that I should explain that that 
 is the reason why I am here to-day. I am not representing the James 
 Eiver Company or any other company. I was requested by the chair- 
 man of the committee to be present here and bring these maps, and say 
 what I had to say on the subject. The maps belong to the Engineer 
 Department iu Washington, and were borrowed by me for the purpose 
 of presenting them before the committee. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Can you tell now the character of rock that you will have to pen- 
 etrate ! 
 
 A. Of course I cannot tell exactly what kind of rock we are going to 
 find there ; but it will be sandstone and perhaps some limestone. The 
 experience of the Chesapeake and Ohio Road, which has been running 
 some of the longest tunnels in the country in that locality, is very valu- 
 able, and Mr.Whitcomb is here in order to give information to the com- 
 mittee upon that particular point. 
 
 By Mr. Davis: 
 
 Q. There have been doubts as to the supply of water in dry seasons. 
 Have you, after the experience of the engineers in gauging, &c, any 
 doubt upon that subject 1 
 
 A. I have none whatever, sir. 
 
 Q. Will there be a surplus of water at the proposed enlargement of 
 the canal after the supply ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I state in my report that this Anthony's Creek reservoir 
 contains a surplus of more than 3,500,000,000 of cubic feet of water 
 over the necessities of the canal, which is about a half year's. supply 
 for the whole summit-level. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do you remember how many lockages per dayyou estimated for? 
 Did you estimate the number of lockages that would give the entire 
 capacity of the canal ? ■ , 
 
 A. Yes, sir. We have assumed a trade of 180 boats per day, but it 
 will be prudent to provide a supply of water for 200. This 180 boats a 
 day is about as many as can pass. Allowing them one and one-half 
 locks full of water to each boat passing the summit-level, we will require 
 300 locks full of water per day for a maximum trade. The greatest lift 
 
382 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 between Greenbrier and Covington, the portion of the line to be supplied 
 from the summit-level, is 14 feet, and the locks being 120 feet by 20— 
 
 We have 300 locks 120 by 20 by 14, equal to cubic feet 
 
 per day 10, 080, 000 
 
 Evaporation on 21.9 miles, (the tunnel being excluded,) 
 
 one-third of an inch per mile per day, cubic feet 225, 264 
 
 Filtration, cubic feet 5, 240, 400 
 
 Waste at structures, cubic feet - 43, 200 
 
 Leakage at lock-gates 1,728,000 
 
 Total cubic feet ' 17, 316, 8G4 
 
 The minimum flow of the Greenbrier, as gauged by Cap- 
 tain McNeil, was 97 feet per second, or, per day 8, 380, 800 
 
 Leaving to be supplied from other sources 8, 936, 064 
 
 Suppose the flow of the Greenbrier to continue at its min- 
 imum for an average period of 120 days, the total 
 quantity to be furnished would be, cubic feet 1, 072, 327, 680 
 
 The reservoir surveyed by Mr. Lorraine will contain 
 4,806,000,000, cubic feet, and the observed discharge of 
 the stream (where it has been gauged) for a year of 
 much less than the average rain -fall is 5, 684, 229, 000 
 
 Diminish by the evaporation of one-fourth of an inch per 
 
 day for one year, from the surface of the reservoir 899, 405, 100 
 
 And we have available for the canal 4, 784, 823, 900 
 
 Or a surplus of... 3,712,496,220 
 
 As fears have been expressed by some persons not familiar with the 
 subject that a reservoir supplied chiefly from rainfall might fail to fur- 
 nish the anticipated supply, it is well to observe that the valley of the 
 Greenbrier Eiver is extremely favorable for the construction of reser- 
 voirs, with which it might be filled throughout its length of sixty miles, 
 in which any amount of water from the spring and winter floods might 
 be stored up for use in times of drought. Without going into all those 
 details, I gave the general result in the statement read to the committee. 
 I will repeat that this question of water-supply has been very thor- 
 oughly investigated by Mr. Lorraine — that he spent a whole year in that 
 part of the country where the question of water-supply comes in, and I 
 think its has been settled as satisfactorily as anything of the kind could 
 be. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Was there a question as to water when the tunnel was to be made 
 200 feet higher than it is "? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but the details of this portion of the old project I have 
 not investigated much, as it was not necessary to do so. Captain Mc- 
 Neil did contemplate a reservoir. Of course it was not required to be 
 so large as for the present larger canal. 
 
 Q. And there would have been sufficient water at the higher eleva- 
 tion? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. The arrangements for supplying it ere shown on the 
 map before the committee, the feeder, tunnel, &c, all indicated in detail 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 383 
 
 Q. Have you in your work estimated in any way for a supply of 
 water for the Kanawha and Ohio below this summit-level ? 
 
 A. Mr. Lorraine made the survey of the Kanawha Eiver under my 
 general direction, and he contemplated the use of the Meadow Eiver 
 reservoir for the supply of the Kanawha Eiver. 
 
 Q. How as to the Ohio? 
 
 A. 1 have had nothing to with the Ohio, and therefore prefer to say 
 nothing about it. 
 
 Q. With the reservoir (on the Gauley, I believe) which you spoke of, 
 would it increase the water to any great extent in dry weather in the 
 Kanawha? In other words, would it keep the Kanawha supplied 
 during the dry season so that there would be no question about water 
 there ? 
 
 A. The object of the Meadow reservoir was to provide in dry season 
 for supplying the deficiency of the Kanawha itself, in order to give a 
 navigation of 6 feet draught of boats continually ; that is, during the 
 dry season as well as at other times. 
 
 Q. In the Kanawha? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. Mr. Lorraine made some suggestions with reference to 
 the supply of the Ohio, but I did not consider it my duty to criticise 
 them at all, because I had nothing to do with the improvement of the 
 Ohio Eiver, and prefer to abstain from giving any opinion on the sub- 
 ject, as it would be improper for me to do so. 
 
 Q. There has been some question as to whether the estimate of cost 
 was sufficient. Was there any percentage added to it after your esti- 
 mate was made? 
 
 A. It is usual, after making an estimate of that sort, to add 10 per 
 cent, for contingencies, as it is called, and that was done as usual. 
 
 Q. That was done in this case ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. With reference to the estimate I must say that we have 
 endeavored in all cases to overestimate, and that, I think, is a safe rule 
 always. Just as, for instance, in estimating the expense of this long 
 tunnel, as I stated, we were not satisfied with taking the basis of the 
 Mont (Jenis Tunnel, but we assumed a rate of progress of half the 
 rate there, and the cost of this tuunel is based ou that assumption; 
 whereas I have no doubt that by availing ourselves of the experience 
 gained and the improvements in machinery, &c, made at the Mout 
 Cenis and Hoosac tunnels, we can greatly exceed the rate attained in 
 those works. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. The Mont Cenis tunnel was much 'smaller than this? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. It was, I think, 25 feet wide, whereas this is considera- 
 bly more. But, as 1 said before, I think that the size of the Lorraine 
 tunnel, after we once get under way, is really an advantage rather than 
 a disadvantage, as is obvious.. For instance, if the face of the rock we 
 were working against was as large as that side of the room which you 
 see, it would of course be much easier to make headway in it than it 
 would be if the space on which we were operating was no larger than 
 that mirror. 
 
 Q. Would it not require a great deal more expense and labor to take 
 out the material ? 
 
 A. No, sir; to use a common expression, when the job is a large one 
 the cost per cubic yard is very much diminished. 
 
 Q. I thought you estimated this at $975 per linear yard, and the 
 Mount Cenis was $1,000. This being so much larger, I wanted your 
 
384 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 opinion as to whether the convenience of taking it out would counter- 
 balance the additional quantity. 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is my impression. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Have there been other estimates than yours on the work, and if 
 so, were they above or below yours 1 
 
 A. The estimate in my report exceeds that of Mr. Lorraine, who made 
 the estimate for the whole length of the work. 
 
 Q. To what extent does it exceed that 1 
 
 A. I think probably some $6,000,000; something like that. 
 
 Q. Your estimates were made from actual survey from here to the 
 Ohio Eiver, I understand 1 
 
 A. They were. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Have you stated the time within which that canal could be put 
 into operation ? 
 
 A. I think it can be completed in six years from the time of the first 
 appropriation. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say that the tunnel could be finished in six 
 years. 
 
 A. That would cause more delay than any other part of the work. 
 When I say that, I must qualify, of course, with this further statement, 
 that the money must be supplied as required ; that there is to be no 
 delay or loss of time for want of money to go on continuously, which is 
 often the case, as you are aware, with the operations of the General 
 Government, between the exhaustion of one appropriation and the 
 granting of another. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. What cases of long tunnels are there for canals in the world? 
 A. I recollect none at this moment. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 Q. Has not the Caledonia Canal long tunnels ? 
 A. Probably it has, but I think not. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Do you know the length of the tunnel on the Chesapeake and Ohio 
 Canal ! 
 
 A. I do not. I am not at all familiar with the Chesapeake and Ohio 
 Canal. 
 
 Q. Do you know that there is one of considerable length on that? 
 
 A. I have heard so. I had hoped to-day to have here with me the 
 gentleman who was lately the chief engineer of the Chesapeake and 
 Ohio Canal, who made a considerable part of the surveys which are 
 embodied in the map before the committee, but he was prevented from 
 coming. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. How about difficulties that may occur in finding veins and seams 
 that may drain off water, &c. 
 
 A. All those things have been considered, looking at the experience 
 of the execution of other great tunnels and especially those in the im- 
 mediate vicinity of this one ; that is, those on the Chesapeake and Ohio 
 Road. 
 
 Q. Could they be tested by a large volume of water 1 Would a tun- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 385 
 
 nel for a railroad be tested by the pressure of a large volume of water? 
 
 A. 0, 1 did not take the point of your question. 
 
 Q. I speak of the effect of the water-pressure in a tunnel through a 
 mountain by way of leakage and finding seams, &c., whether any diffi- 
 culties occurred to you at that time, and I wish to see whether any 
 great tunnels have ever been built through a mountain in that way. 
 
 A. My memory does not supply any data on that subject, sir, at the 
 present time, which I would be willing to state as reliable information. 
 
 By Mr. Conexing : 
 
 Q. Suppose you come to fissures in the rock, either at the bottom or 
 sides? ■ , 
 
 A. They would be closed by masonry. In the estimate for this tun- 
 nel, the probabilities of the leakage of water ajid the necessity of lining 
 the tunnel, so to speak, has not been overlooked. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman: 
 Q. What sort of lining ? 
 A. Brick masonry. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 Q. What we usually term arching ? 
 A. Arching and siding. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 Q. Side, bottom, and top 1 
 A. Yes, sir ; wherever ijfc may be necessary. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Do you not propose to have a top-lining all over 1 
 
 A. No, sir ; only where it is necessary. The lining, however, is not 
 a very large item in the expense. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether any fissures were found in the Hoosac tun- 
 nel ? 
 
 A. I do not, sir, of my own knowledge. I never have been there. I 
 think there ,is present, however, an engineer who was connected with, 
 the Hoosac tunnel, and can answer those questions. He says, I under- 
 stand there are no fissures in the Hoosac tunnel whatever. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Can you give us the elevation of the Ohio at Point Pleasant, so 
 that we will know how much elevation we will have on the west side ? 
 
 A. In Mr. Milnor Boberts's report of the Ohio Biver to the War De- 
 partment, he gives all of those details. I think it is 520 feet above tide. 
 His report is contained in Ex. Doc. No. 72, House of Eepresentatives, 
 41st Congress, 3d session. It is very interesting and instructive. 
 
 Q. That would make, then, about 1,200 feet lift on the west side ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That, of course, would reduce the lockage to 1,200 feet on the west 
 side? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it would be the difference, of course, between 1,716 and 
 520 feet. 
 
 Q. Do you know how much of that is overcome in open navigation 
 before you strike the canal ? 
 
 A. The reports themselves show it, but I do not recollect those fig- 
 ures. They are all embodied in the official documents,. 
 
 H. D. Whitcomb, chief engineer of the Chesapeake and Ohio Bail- 
 road: „„ 
 
 25 ts 
 
386 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee would like to hear of the practicability 
 of this tunnel spoken of by Colonel Craighill, and as to your knowledge 
 of the country from practical operations near to it. Please state what 
 information you have on that subject. 
 
 Mr. Whitcomb. We have a tunnel on the Chesapeake and Ohio Eoad 
 through the AlleghaDy Mountain 4,700 and a few additional feet that I 
 do not remember. That is a double-track tunnel about 30 feet wide. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. What distance from this tunnel as located 1 
 Answer. I do not know, sir, exactly the distance; 1 suppose, however, 
 that it is inside of two miles perhaps. 
 
 By Mr. Carrington : 
 Q. I do not think it is more than three-quarters of a mile. 
 A. It is not over a mile. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do you know at what elevation above the tide-water your tunnel 
 passes through 1 
 
 A. Two thousand and sixty feet. That is at the western end. It is 
 about 30 feet lower at the other end. 
 
 Q. It is about 3C0 feet, then, higher than this proposed canal-tuDnel ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Please state the character of that rock, and the difficulties of the 
 work, if any. 
 
 A. It is a blue slate, and some of tbe shale*that is associated with the 
 slates of the Alleghany. About one-half of the tunDel has been arched. 
 The other half stands very well without arching. I think it probable 
 that this tunnel, from what I have seen of the rock in that neighbor- 
 hood, being lower, would r be in slate, and perhaps some sandstone, though 
 rather, a hard shale that is called sandstone in that country, but is not 
 exactly a sandstone. The harder rocks of that country are generally 
 above us. Wherever we have had occasion to excavate the foundation 
 near the line of this tunnel, we found this hard blue slate. 
 
 Q. Is that slate strong enough to support that tunnel? 
 
 A. I should think that to some extent it would be. It is very hard 
 to say until you get into it. It would depend a great deal on the dip 
 of the slate. If it was level it would require arching. It is generally 
 at an angle, sometimes inclined in one direction and sometimes in an- 
 other. The rock is very favorable for progress. The Alleghany tun- 
 nel was taken out by the State of Virginia, previous to the war, for 
 $2.75 a yard, payable in State bonds, which were then selling at about 
 80 per cent., according to my recollection. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. That was the contract price ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. It was done under that contract? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, for the most part. The Chesapeake and Ohio Eailroad 
 Company, which succeeded the State in this work, finished it. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Q. What did they pay 1 
 
 A. We took it with a company force. There was a small amount to 
 be done. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 387 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 Q. Do you know anything about fissures in the rock ? 
 A. There are springs in the tunnel, but I have never seen a tunnel 
 yet when there was not water running out of it, if there was any in it 
 at all. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 Q. Do you know how much that price made per linear yard ? 
 A. For the mere excavation of the tunnel it would be in the neigh- 
 borhood of $1.80, by a rough calculation. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. In the excavation, of course, you mean the removing"? 
 A. Yes, sir; that is, in distinction from the arching, which is done 
 afterwards. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. You contracted, I presume, for some of your tunnels. When they 
 are in the Alleghanies, what was the price you paid, on an average? 
 
 A. From $2.95 to $5.50, varying. The five dollars and a half was 
 exceptionally hard reck. It was this side of the Alleghany, which is 
 entirely above the line of this tunnel, and would not be encountered by 
 it, I am very sure, because we find the slate rock under this tunnel. It 
 was known as the Little Alleghany, a little immediately east of it 
 across a ravine, at a depth of 180 feet; and rather than build a culvert 
 we tunneled through it, and found it to be the slate that we had in the 
 Alleghany. In other words, the sandstone lies higher than the slate — 
 overlies it. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What do you estimate the expense per linear yard for arching? 
 
 A. For such a tunnel as that I have not been called upon to make 
 any estimate. In such a tunnel as that it is worth about ten dollars a 
 cubic yard. I suppose the thickness of the arch would be from 2J to 3 
 feet. The excavation of that tunnel would be let at under three dollars 
 a yard. The cheapest tunnel you could find would be through the rock 
 that would be self-supporting and hard enough for that purpose. It 
 takes away the trouble of temporary supports and the difficulties of 
 that character. In our tunnels we have made, with hand labor, as high 
 as 275 feet a month from each heading. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. What size tunnel ? 
 
 A. About 30 feet where we take them out for arching, and 26 feet 
 where they do not require arching. 
 
 Q. You have heard the estimate for this excavation. Have you any 
 doubts in your own mind as to the amount? 
 
 A. I consider it sufficient, sir, even if the tunnel is to be arched from 
 end to end. 
 
 Q. You know this ground, of course, do you ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. When I say under three dollars, I think it could be let 
 at considerably under three dollars. All the people on our work made 
 money at the price they did the tunneling. It is very favorable, all that 
 section. I think the price of excavation as given by Mr. Lorraine is 
 altogether higher than is necessary under any circumstances. It was 
 five dollars a yard. There is no difficulty in making a rapid penetra- 
 tion for that tunnel, and doing it in the time stated. All that is neces- 
 sary is to 'have sufficient shafting to carry the material off. 
 
388 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Q. Do .you think the time sufficient that was given for the construe 
 
 A. Yes, sir. There is no difference that I know of in the time ol 
 running single and double-track tunnels, where it is self-supporting, 
 that is not in favor of a double-track tunnel, except the moving of the 
 stuff out of the shafts. Tou must have room to carry out in a single- 
 track tunnel the amount of headings removed, which is the same for 
 a double as for a single track. That is a narrow drift first cut through, 
 and then the operation of removing the remainder of the tunnel varies 
 very little, except the cost of keeping the work right, &c. And in open 
 cutting that sort of rock is excavated for 40 and 60 cents a yard. If 
 the rock is too soft, then it requires temporary support, and in. that case 
 the progress is sometimes slower. 
 
 By Mr. NORWOOD : 
 
 Q. Did you find any fissures in that tunnel 1 
 
 A. No, sir ; we have found some in the limestone tunnels, but they 
 have troubled us more by letting water in than out. The water gen- 
 erally comes from above. 
 
 By Mr. SHERMAN : 
 
 Q. There are no openings in any rock, I suppose, except limestone ! 
 
 A.I have not seen any, sir, There are very small cracks and seams 
 in the rock sometimes, but I should not suppose there would beany 
 trouble in that tunnel. 
 
 Q. Is there any granite in the line ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; it is away above the granite. 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Do you know of any canal-tunnel of any length ! 
 
 A. I am not very familiar with canal operations. There is along 
 tunnel in England. The tunnel on the Chesapeake and Ohio Canal is 
 3,600 feet long. 
 
 Mr. Carrington : 
 
 I will venture to say that Colonel Whitcomb, as chief engineer of 
 the Chesapeake and Ohio Bailroad Company, has had more connec- 
 tion with the construction of tunnels than any other engineer of any 
 eminence, and I am sure that as to the practical questions in connection 
 with their construction, he is a very thoroughly informed man. I only 
 mention that, that the committee itself may understand it. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. AVill you please inform the committee upon what tunnels you have 
 been engaged I 
 
 A. Only on onr line. I built nineteen under my own observation. 
 The longest, though, is only a mile and a quarter. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 Q. In this long tunnel we have been speaking of particularly, did you 
 find no difference in the geological formation on the face of the moun- 
 tain and in the interior 1 
 
 A. Whenever I have gone over a line of a tunnel I have been able to 
 come at a close estimate of what we would find underneath ; but I have 
 not been over this. ' 
 
 Q. I mean going into the face and then into th« renter nf the ™™„t 
 aiu, did you find a different formation ? Cent6r ° f the mount " 
 
 A. Yes, sir; very frequently. The strarifiVnHnn r.f fv,„ ah , 
 is a great deal distorted; bui ;my impression !s t£a ftht %£$?? hwu f? 
 be almost entirely in the slate and h/the shales whth accompanyThe 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 389 
 
 slates. Those shales are pretty hard rock. I do not think you would 
 meet any limestone or any pure sandstone. Still I give that opinion 
 ■with a great deal of hesitation. 
 
 Q. What is the depth of your shafts ? 
 
 A. At the Alleghany the deepest was only 150 feet. The one at the 
 Great Bend tunnel was 375 feet; that was beyond the Alleghany. That 
 shaft at the Great Bend is one-half as deep as mentioned for this tunnel, 
 and it took us about six months, at the rate of about 60 feet a month. 
 In that shaft we had some of the hardest sandstone I ever encountered; 
 but other parts of the rock were very favorable — red shale. Sometimes 
 we made as high as 70 or 80 feet a month, and I think never under 40. 
 
 By Mr. Sheeman : 
 
 Q. Can you give us the length of line from Richmond to Covington ? 
 
 A. Four hundred and twenty-two miles, striking the Ohio at Hunt- 
 ington, thirty-eight miles below Point Pleasant. 
 
 Q. What is the general course of that road as compared with the pro- 
 posed canal ? 
 
 A. It is almost alongside of it after you reach Covington. 
 
 Q. It cuts across the bend ; it does not go to Eichmond ? 
 
 A. It goes entirely north of the canal after leaving Covington, and 
 passes by Stanton over the mountains, the canal following the James 
 Eiver. 
 
 Q. What are the highest grades you have going westward from Eich- 
 mond ? 
 
 A. We have grades as high as 80 feet between Stanton and Clifton 
 Forge; that is about three miles above the junction of the Jackson 
 Eiver and the Cow Pasture. That is at the head of the James, where 
 we strike the waters of the James Eiver. 
 
 Q. Near Covington 1 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many miles have you of that? 
 
 A. I could not tell you ; we have several short grades. The longest 
 grade we have is six miles. 
 
 Q. What is the highest grade going eastward f 
 
 A. Seventy feet this side of Clifton Forge. After we strike Clifton 
 we ascend the Alleghany sixty feet to the mile, and west of the 
 Alleghany we have nothing over 30 feet. 
 
 Q. Are railroads contemplated, or plans made for railroads west of 
 the Ohio Eiver; and if so, to what point ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir ; our company have nearly completed arrangements to 
 open a road from Huntington to Lexington, Ky., on the south of 
 the Ohio, and they have also made surveys and raised some means 
 toward a line on the north side of the Ohio, and running down the Ohio 
 to Portsmouth, from, there to Dayton, and from there to Cincinnati. 
 
 Q. Have you run your roads long enough to give us an idea of the 
 general character of the productions that come over them ? 
 
 A. Not from the West. 'We have imperfect connection with the Ohio 
 Eiver at present, which is subject to droughts, as you are aware, but we- 
 are carrying some grain. Bacon and things of that sort are brought 
 from Cincinnati to the East. 
 
 Q. Do you carry grain from Cincinnati 1 
 
 A. We carry grain from the western part of the line. I do not know 
 that it comes from Cincinnati. I am not connected with the transpor- 
 tation department. 
 
390 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. What length of road is completed 1 
 
 A. Four hundred and twenty-two miles to Huntington. The com- 
 pany have made a part of the line from Lexington eastward to Mount 
 Sterling, 30 miles I think. There are about 80 miles left there to be 
 finished. 
 
 By Mr. Sheeman : 
 
 Q. "Where does your road strike the James Eiver ? 
 
 A. We do not touch the James proper, but we touch the principal 
 branch of the James, the Jackson Eiver. We reach that at Covington, 
 and follow it fourteen miles to Clifton Forge, and there we leave it and 
 go across the country. 
 
 Q. What is the eastern terminus of your road ? 
 
 A. Bichmond at present. They are thinking of running it down the 
 peninsula to some point on the Chesapeake Bay. I do not think they 
 have determined definitely where. 
 
 Q. That road is not built ? 
 
 A. No, Sir. We have made this summer a location to Yorktown. The 
 company purchased some property there ; perhaps that would be the 
 point. 
 
 Q. What authority have you for the building of your roads ? 
 
 A. The legislatures of Virginia and West Virginia. 
 
 Q. Are those old charters purchased or consolidation, or is it one 
 continuous charter ? 
 
 A. The road was built from Bichmond to Covington under the char- 
 ter of the Virginia Central Bailroad under the laws of Virginia before 
 the war. The State of Virginia was then engaged in building what 
 was kfaown as the Covington and Ohio Bailroad, which extended from 
 Covington westward to the mountain-line. After the war was over the 
 two States were not in condition to finish this road, and they offered it 
 to any parties who would finish it, and the Virginia Central Bailroad 
 Company had the right to become a party to finish it, and in case they 
 did agree to finish it it was to be consolidated with the Covington and 
 Ohio Bailroad under the new name of the Chesapeake and Ohio. The 
 Virginia Central Bailroad Company did undertake to finish it and have 
 done so. 
 
 Q. Is this road intended to be a competing line of road for through 
 traflic with the Baltimore and Ohio, Pennsylvania Central, and New 
 York Central? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it is. 
 
 Q. That is the design! 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The connections westward are to embrace the whole stretch of 
 country from the Mississippi to tide water ! 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It is completed only to Huntington 1 
 
 A. We have a charter from Virginia to extend the line from Clifton 
 Forge down the James Eiver to tide- water, and the company expect to 
 build that road ; that is to say, to have but one summit, so to speak, 
 between the waters of the Chesapeake and the Ohio. That would be at 
 the White Sulphur Spriugs. 
 
 Q. What advantages has your route, as you claim, over any of the 
 other routes, the Baltimore and Ohio, or-any other competing line'? 
 
 A. We have lower grade. We cross the Alleghany 600 feet lower 
 than the Baltimore and Ohio, and we approach it with only a 30-foot 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 391 
 
 grade, and.that for a limited distance. From the foot of the Alleghany, 
 on the westward side, we have only 30 feet. The Baltimore and Ohio 
 has 116. We have these heavy grades east of Clifton Forge,' 70 feet to 
 the mile, but the company has obtained a charter to run down the 
 James River, or by any other route of easier grade to the Chesapeake, 
 and they expect to make that road. When it is done there will be 
 nothing over 30 feet, I am sure, between the Ohio Eiver and the Chesa- 
 peake. 
 
 Q. Give us any advantage which you claim for your line as a com- 
 peting line for through traffic from the West to the Bast. 
 
 A. There is no other except the climate. I suppose we have some 
 advantage in distance. 
 
 Q. Do you know what that is ? 
 
 A. Without referring to the publications of the company I cannot 
 state that. There are, however, some advantages. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. To what given points. 
 
 A. From the Ohio River to Cincinnati, for instance, or Saint Louis. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. What advantage have you in climate ? 
 
 A. It is a milder climate ; never obstructed by snow. 
 
 Q. Are the mountains never obstructed by snow ? 
 
 A. We were laying track all last winter, and there was not a snow- 
 plow on our road. There is not a snow-plow on the Chesapeake and 
 Ohio Road. We never have had occasion to use one. 
 
 Q. Do you claim any advantage by your route on account of facility 
 for ports of entry — water-communication ? 
 
 A. By the Chesapeake Bay, Hampton Roads, and the York River, 
 you can get any depth of water that any vessel would desire, of any 
 size, and it is easily approached from the ocean. 
 
 Q. Have any arrangements been made for loading or unloading wheat 
 on vessels 1! 
 
 A. They are in contemplation, sir. We are only recently opened, and 
 we are not prepared as well as we will be. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. I do not recollect whether you stated your opinion as to the time 
 in which this long tunnel could be completed. 
 
 A. My impression is that it could be done in four years, or rather less. 
 It would be safer, perhaps, to say four years. About these works there 
 are always a great many contingencies; it might take five years. Per- 
 sons who take hold of it ought to be well supplied with all the material 
 in the start, and of course for such a job as that they would have to 
 have the very best appliances. It would not do to have a stoppage. 
 You must have the best engines and everything of that sort. 
 
 Q. And under proper management I understand you your maximum 
 would be five years ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; I should think five years ought to do it. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 Q. That is allowing for what length of tunnel ? 
 
 A. Seven thousand five hundred feet between shafts. The test of 
 that tunnel would be that 7,500 feet between those two deep shafts. 
 
392 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By Mr. Datis : 
 
 Q. From your experience on the top of the njoun tain could you 
 give us an idea of the length of time each year you would be hindered 
 by ice on the canal 1 _ rT , 
 
 A. No, sir. We have some cold weather at the White bulpnur 
 Springs. I never thought of that subject. I should not think more 
 than a month, or six weeks at the outside. That is the impression I 
 would have about it, without being positive, and without ever having 
 thought of the subject particularly. Perhaps from about Christmas to 
 the middle of February. I should think that that would be as long as 
 it would be obstructed, and many winters you would not be obstructed 
 half that time. There will be no trouble in making that tunnel, I can 
 say to the gentlemen of the committee, and it is only a question of 
 time and money. . . 
 
 Q. And I understood you that the estimate, in your opinion, was 
 
 ample 1 
 A. I think so, sir. I think I should be willing to take the tunnel at 
 
 that price. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. It is ample, even if it were shale throughout f 
 
 A. Yes, sir. My impression is that about $14,000,000 would make it 
 and arch it. 
 
 Q. And you consider that a most expensive tunnel? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. I would rather take the chances of getting through 
 quicker with rock that would be self-supporting. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. I presume you have given the question of the supply of water no 
 thought 1 ? : 
 
 A. 1 have read pretty much all that has been written on that subject, 
 and I have never doubted that there was a supply of water there for 
 canal purposes. The evidence is strong in favor of it. 
 
 Q. You know that country well 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but I rely entirely on the statements of the engineers. 
 I knew Mr. Ellet very well. I was his assistant for a great many years. 
 He never had any doubt about it, and I consider him very good author- 
 ity. And Mr. Fiske, still better, connected with canals, never had any 
 doubt about the supply with the higher level on the James River Canal, 
 but he did have on the Chesapeake and Ohio Canal. He thought it 
 was a doubtful question. 
 
 Q. Yon speak of in crossing the mountains ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is what he referred to in the summit between Pitts- 
 burgh. Mr. Fiske told me that in the course of conversation. 
 
 Q. Mr. Fiske was engineer on each of the canals at different times, 
 was he? 
 
 A. I do not think he was ever permanently connected with the James 
 River Canal. He was the engineer of this railway west of Covington 
 before the war, and was not connected with the canal at all, so that his 
 opinion was an entirely disinterested one, and it was worth as much as 
 that of any other man in Ameriea on that subject. He never made a 
 statement, except in the most cautious way. 
 
 General Herman Hatjpt : 
 
 Mr. Chairman, I will state that I became connected with the Hoosac 
 tunnel, as contractor and engineer, in the early part of 1856, and com- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 393 
 
 menced the tunnel, no work having been done previous to that time, 
 except at approaches. It was prosecuted under a loan of credit made 
 by the State of Massachusetts, to the extent of $2,000,000, which as- 
 sistance was rendered in sterling bonds, and issued from time to time 
 as the work progressed. The work was very much embarrassed for 
 many years, owing to financial difficulties, and to the onerous conditions 
 of the loan act. The State imposed conditions which it was exceedingly 
 difficult to fulfil, and very little assistance, in fact no assistance 
 whatever, was derived from the Troy and Greenfield Railroad Company, 
 with whom the contract had been made ; so that the contractors were 
 compelled to expend some $400,000, raised from their own credit and 
 resources, before any portion of the State loan became available. 
 
 During the panic of 1857 the work was suspended, and was not re- 
 sumed for nearly a year, which accounts for tbe slow progress made in 
 the early portion of the work. The work was not placed upon a proper 
 financial basis, or in such a condition that the contractors could carry 
 it on without embarrassment, until the year 1860, when, as the result 
 of a very long investigation by a committee appointed by the legislature, 
 they became satisfied that a change in the conditions of the loan act 
 was imperatively required, and the chairman of the committee came to 
 me with the remark that he thought it was the interest of the State, 
 and the interest of the contractors, and the interest of all parties that 
 we should be relieved from the embarrassments under which we labored, 
 and that the State of Massachusetts should really do what it proposed to 
 do, extend assistance to the work, instead of throwing unnecessary obsta- 
 cles and impediments in the way. The committee, as the result of that 
 investigation, had become fully satisfied that we were prosecuting the 
 work on the Hoosac tunnel at a cost less than five dollars per cubic 
 yard, and, at that rate, the whole cost of that tunnel would have been 
 less than a million and a half of dollars, although now, owing to the 
 changes that have taken place under the mismanagement in the hands 
 of State commissioners, &c, the cost, with interest, may fall very little 
 short of $12,000,000. The workwas actually carried on at that time at 
 a rate of progress and at a rate of cost that, in the opinion of the com- 
 mittee, and of several preceding committees, would have insured the 
 completion of the tunnel without exceeding the original limits of the 
 State loan of $2,000,000. It was the subject of annual investigation by 
 legislative committees, appointed usually in a spirit of antagonism and 
 hostility ; but, as the result of the investigation they would generally 
 make a unanimons report sustaining the administration of the work, 
 and recommend appropriations to carry it through. 
 
 It is proper to remark that the size of the tunnel, as originally con- 
 templated, was for a single track. The width was 14 feet and the height 
 18 feet. The number of cubic yards per linear foot of tunnel was 10, 
 making the cost of the tunnel $50 per linear foot. The material of the 
 tunnel consisted of talcose slate lying in a nearly vertical position, the 
 inclination being about 10 degrees only from vertical, and made a per- 
 fectly self-sustaining roof, requiring no arching whatever, excepting a 
 small portion, less than half a mile, at the west end of the tunnel in 
 North Adams, where the material was a limestone-clay and gravel, and 
 where very serious difficulties were encountered for some time. This 
 material at the west end was mixed with bowlders of rock, which added 
 very considerably to the expense of that portion. In consequence of 
 these difficulties, and to gain time, we sunk a shaft at the west end, so 
 as to reach the taclose slate and to commence tunneling from the shaft, 
 which was 325 feet deep. The work was carried on from both ends. , It 
 
394 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 was not my purpose to sink a central shaft. I was always opposed to 
 that project, because, with the aid of machinery, which I was then in 
 process of developing, I was satisfied that very little advantage would he 
 derived from a shaft. The shaft would have been about 1,100 feet in depth, 
 and the cost of excavation and the length of time required would have 
 been such that 1 expected, as in the case of the Mont Cenis tunnel, to 
 carry the work through from the two ends. 
 
 I commenced, soon after my connection with the work, to develop 
 machinery for the tunnel and pneumatic drills, and had made consider- 
 able progress at the time of the suspension of the work in 1861, which 
 was caused by the act of Governor Andrew. The progress made in 
 drilling-machinery was such that we were able to drill about an inch 
 and a half or two inches a minute in solid granite, but still the ma- 
 chinery was not sufficiently complete to make it proper at that time to 
 use it in connection with tunneling operations. 
 
 My plans were, in some respects, very different from those adoped at 
 the Mont Cenis tunnel, and from those adopted by the State commis- 
 sioners subsequently. I proposed to make a direct application of steam, 
 while they have made use of compressed air. Compressed air is a very 
 desirable motor in such cases, but the expense was a great objection 
 when all the funds had to be raised by individuals, and when we had 
 not either the treasury of the State or of the United States to fall back 
 upon. But I was satified that with the use of machinery we could 
 make very rapid progress in the tunnel, and even without power-drills, 
 with a more perfect organization, more powerful explosives and electri- 
 cal blasting. I am confident that, if no interruptions had been experi- 
 enced, the tunnel would have been finished before now, the trains would 
 have been running through to-day, and the original estimated cost of 
 $2,000,000 would not have been exceeded. The maximum pro- 
 gress actually made by hand-labor was about 3 feet a day from 
 each face, or > say about 25 feet a week from each face — 50 feet 
 a week from both faces in the tunnel. We would have made a prog- 
 ress of about 200 to 300 feet a month with proper organization, full force, 
 and continuous work. The rock was tolerably hard : and in softer 
 rock the progress would have been much more rapid. 
 
 The progress made in the tunnels of the Chesapeake and Ohio Eailroad 
 has been very rapid and satisfactory and better results have been attained 
 there than- in any tunneling operations with which I am familiar. The 
 progress has been more rapid and the cost less. They have been con- 
 ducted with very extraordinary economy under the direction of the chief 
 engineer, H. D. Whitcomb, the tunnels costing from two to four dollars 
 per cubic yard for the excavation. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Are you acquainted with the locality of this proposed 
 tunnel ? 
 
 Answer. Not intimately, sir. I have been spending a good many sum- 
 mers in the mountains of Virginia, and. am familiar with the general 
 character and formation of the ground. It is sandstone, shale, and 
 slate. 
 
 Q. Do you regard that shale-rock as presenting any very serious em- 
 barrassments ? 
 
 A. It is almost the easiest rock for tunneling that can be found 
 
 Q. But not self-supporting ? 
 
 A. No, sir; and I suppose, in consequence of the large area of this 
 tunnel, it will require to.be arched throughout. I do not think it would 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 395 
 
 be safe to calculate upon anything else. It would have to be timbered 
 during the progress of construction, and lined afterward. I apprehend 
 no difficulty x of leakage, for I concur in the opinion of Mr. Whitcomb, 
 and I have never known a case of water running out of, but always run- 
 ning into, a tunnel, except from the ends or in cavernous limestone for- 
 mations. 
 
 Q. Do you regard timbering as very expensive f 
 
 A. Not in that locality where the timber is easily procured. It would 
 be timbered with rough timbers, and not add very materially to the 
 expense. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. You know the estimate for this tunnel? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I have not looked into the figures in detail. 
 
 Q. Have you looked sufficiently to give us your idea whether it could 
 be built irom the estimate'? 
 
 A. I have no doubt that it can from the statement of the price per 
 cubic yard made in my presence here. I have no doubt that the tunnel 
 can be excavated at less than $5 a cubic yard. It will require, of course, 
 very excellent machinery at the shafts in order to remove the material as 
 fast as it can be excavated. The progress of a tunnel is measured by 
 the progress of the heading. It is always possible to put on a sufficient 
 amount of force to take out the bottom as rapidly as the heading can 
 progress, so that a large tunnel does not require more time in its exca- 
 vation than a small tunnel, provided you have sufficient capacity of 
 machinery at the shafts to remove the material as fast as it can be 
 excavated. It must be run back in cars and hoisted and carried away. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What do you mean by taking out the bottom 1 
 
 A. In driving a tunnel there is always a small area called a "heading" 
 driven in advance, usually six or seven feet high, and about ten or 
 twelve feet wide. This is driven in advance of the workers, and the 
 progress with that heading measures the progress of the work. The 
 balance of the work, called bottom, is taken out by other forces follow- 
 ing after the heading gangs, and a sufficient force can always be put on 
 to take out that material as rapidly as the heading can progress. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Have you an estimate of the time that it would require 1 ? 
 
 A. I should think from the time when the shafts were sunk to the 
 grade of the tunnel it ought not to require more than four and a half or 
 Ave years at the outside, even taking into consideration all the difficul- 
 ties that we may reasonably expect to encounter in the progress of such 
 a work. I should think six or seven years at the outside would be suf- 
 ficient. It is only a collection of smaller tunnels, and in this particular 
 presents much less difficulty and uncertainty than the tunnels of the 
 Alps or Hoosac. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 Q. What was the length of the Hoosac tunnel ? 
 A. A little under five miles. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What was the depth of their longest shaft ? 
 
 A. It was nearly 1,050 feet. The State sunk one and I sunk another 
 at the west end; not because it was necessary in any other view except- 
 ing to get into the solid- rock of the "mountain, and to get away from 
 
396 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 that loose material -which gave us great annoyance at the west end. 
 The State sunk the central shaft afterward, and I understand that the 
 workings have now been extended to such a point that they are within 
 about 500 feet of meeting between the central sbaft and the west end 
 of the tunnel. The workings have met at the east end. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. What is your estimate of Wie working time on the Hoosac tunnel? 
 
 A. That -would be a very difficult question to answer; it has been 
 subjected to so many delays. The progress can, however, be readily 
 calculated— by machinery, as high as 40 feet a week at each face, and 
 by hand-labor, 20 to 25 feet a week. The progress would have been ac- 
 celerated by keeping a constant force employed, but owing to pecuniary 
 and other difficulties it was not kept full, so that the progress actually 
 made was no indication af the progress that would have been made 
 under more favorable circumstances. About three feet a day at each 
 face in the Hoosac tunnel, by hand-labor, was full progress, as we were 
 situated. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. How many faces did you have in that tuunel ? 
 
 A. There were four faces part of the time, though I proposed to work 
 it only, with two faces, one from the west shaft and the other from the 
 east end. 
 
 The cost of the work on the Hoosac tunnel was very greatly enhanced 
 after it was assumed as a State work. Governor Andrew had an idea 
 that the only way in which that work could be properly carried on was 
 by commissioners, and, in fact, declared to members of the executive 
 council that he would veto any bill that did not put it into the hands of 
 commissioners. That was done in 1862, and I made an estimate after- 
 ward of the progress and the expenditure per cubic yard, and it run up 
 to $90 under the management of the commissioners. A large amount 
 of that, however, was in unnecessary outside work, building a cut-stone 
 dam across a river, &c. Afterward it was put in the hands of con- 
 tractors again. The expenditure under State management was so great 
 that the people became dissatisfied. 
 
 The area of the tunnel was enlarged, and the price increased consid- 
 erably. I think the contract price for finishing by present contractors 
 was somewhere between four and five millions ; but what that would 
 amount to per cubic yard I do not remember. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. What railroad are you connected with ? 
 
 A. I am at present general manager of the line from Atlanta to Rich- 
 mond, including the North Carolina railroad. It is operated as one line, 
 although several different organizations are included. 
 
 Q. Is that the Pennsylvania company 1 
 
 A. The Pennsylvania have an interest in it. 
 
 Q. What competing line have you through the State, in a southwest- 
 erly direction, wibh your line ? 
 
 A. Regarding Atlanta as a competitive point, we have quite a number 
 of competing lines. From this point (Richmond) is the Atlantic, Mis- 
 sissippi and Ohio, the Kenesaw route so-called, leading to Atlanta. 
 Another line competing with us is the coast line running from Rich- 
 mond via Petersburgh, Weldon, Columbia, and Augusta to Atlanta. 
 The other lines are part rail and part water lines running by the way 
 of the Sea-board and Roanoke Road and the bay-line of steamers; other 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 397 
 
 Hues running to Wilmington, others running to Charleston, others to 
 Savannah; lines running from those ports also to Atlanta, making an 
 active competition for the trade of the Southwest there. 
 
 Q. What is the line of the Orange and Alexandria 1 
 
 A. That line connects with the Kenesaw route, the Atlantic, Mis- 
 sissippi and Ohio, and that line is to be extended from Lynchburgh to 
 Danville, where it will connect with our line, but that is not yet com- 
 pleted. 
 
 Q. Does the Baltimore and Ohio line compete with your Pennsyl- 
 vania line ? 
 
 A. The Baltimore and Ohio line does not enter the territory of Vir- 
 ginia except west. It extends from Baltimore westward. 
 
 Q. Have they not a line running from some point on the Baltimore 
 and Ohio Eoad either in process of construction or completed? 
 
 A. It is understood that the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Company 
 has been assisting by an advance of funds and controls the Lynchburgh 
 and Danville, and the Orange, Alexandria and Manassas. It has now 
 a new name, and so long a one that I do not remember it just now. 
 Washington City, Virginia, Midland and Great Southern, I think it is. 
 
 Q. Tou then have three of what you would call competing lines 
 across the State of Virginia running in a southwesterly direction? 
 
 A. The road with which I am connected does not run across the entire 
 State of Virginia. It runs south, from Richmond through Danville and 
 Greensborough, through North Carolina, thence across the State of 
 South Carolina to Atlanta, Georgia. 
 
 Q. It connects here with the Fredericksburg Boad ? 
 
 A. Ves, sir. 
 
 Q. Is not that part of the line? 
 
 A. That road is owned by other parties with whom we have not very 
 satisfactory connections. We often have difficulties in arranging through 
 schedules. 
 
 Q. Does the Baltimore and Potomac Boad not connect ? 
 
 A. That is another different organization and connects with the Fred- 
 ericksburgh Eailroad, not with ours. 
 
 Q. Is not there a connection by interest, a running connection ? 
 
 A. The Baltimore and Potomac Eoad is directly connected by interest 
 with the Pennsylvania Eoad, and also the Pennsylvania Eoad is directly 
 connected with the Northern Central Eoad and with the Richmond and 
 Danville Eailroad, but we have been laboring in vain for years to get a 
 direct connection under one management or control between the Balti- 
 more and Potomac Road and the Richmond and Danville and its exten- 
 sions south. The intervening link is the Richmond, Fredericksburgh, 
 and Potomac Railroad, not under the control of these corporations. 
 
 Q. Is that a separate corporation ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. All efforts thus far to make entirely satisfactory ar- 
 rangements with that company either to lease and operate, purchase or 
 prorate, have been, as I am informed, unsuccessful. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 Q. Who controls that ? 
 A. Mr. Robinson, of Philadelphia. 
 
 • By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. What is the effect of consolidating these lines ; either by a com- 
 munity of interest or running arrangement f 
 A. I think the effect of consolidation is very beneficial upon the lines 
 
\ 
 
 398 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD, 
 
 themselves, and also upon the populations locally interested, and upon 
 the country tributary to the line. 
 Q. How as to the rates of fragW! ,, reduced. The con- 
 
 1 The rates ,«f freight can ^be and ^£™2f £* he Atlanta, Missis- 
 solidation of the various i lines i now ™ a ha / led to a considerable 
 
 sippi and Ohio Eoad, under Genera^ua ^ tical consolidation 
 
 reduction in the Rights upon ttaW, ^i^ Eichmond 
 
 of the lines ^ut-h under one mana^^ ^ and ia a revi8ion 
 
 Atlanta, has already ^ ™ fa m be still furt her reductions 
 
 of the ton-sheet ja8toompletMl g tn have ^^ ^ ^ pennsylvania 
 
 S 8 ^ 6 ^iPnmDanv will probably control this line, it seems necessary to 
 Kai road Company ^^^^ ^.^ the Pennsylvania Railroad Company 
 
 6 Ph^f eneiheer, and also as general superintendent, for about ten 
 aS ™ and the policy adopted there, and which will no doubt be intro- 
 duced here, was to develop the country as rapidly as possible by the 
 lowest rates of transportation that the business would bear. I remem- 
 ber as pertinent to the questions now under consideration, that it was 
 a subject of animated discussion twenty-five years ago in the Pennsyl- 
 vania Eailroad board whether a low rate should be established to admit 
 of the transportation of coal, and the position was taken that coal and 
 such articles could not be transported on railroads; that the canals, 
 such as we had then in Pennsylvania, would answer very well for the 
 transportation of such articles, but railroads must be used exclusively 
 for passengers and light freights ; that anything carried at a less cost 
 than two cents a ton a mile would be at a positive loss ; the cost, then, 
 exceeded two cents a mile, and at that time there was a tonnage of only 
 a hundred thousand tons over the Pennsylvania railroad. In order to 
 demonstrate the practicability of carrying coal I made an analysis of 
 the business of the preceding year, separating those items which would 
 be increased by an increased business from the general and other con- 
 stant expenses, which were independent of the volume of tonnages. 
 
 After making a careful analysis I succeeded in demonstrating that 
 the actual cost of the transportation of coal over the Pennsylvania rail- 
 road would not exceed about seven or eight mills a ton a mile, while it 
 would bear a price for freight of a cent and a quarter. Subsequently, 
 the Pennsylvania Eailroad Company engaged in the coal transporta 
 tion, and now their whole average charge ?or transportation of all classes 
 of freight is only one cent and four mills for all the business of the 
 road, which exceeds 8,000,000 tons per annum. The actual cost of service 
 with a smaller volume of tonnage exceeded two cents a ton a mile as 
 previously stated. 
 
 It is proposed to pursue the same policy in the South so far as the in- 
 fluence of the Pennsylvania Eailroad Company can extend, and before 
 taking charge of this line I may state, as it may be a matter of interest, 
 that I had a conversation with Mr. Thomson, who sent for me, he being 
 the president of the Pennsylvania Eailroad Company. He expressed a 
 very warm interest in the South, and a desire to increase and develop 
 the business, and requested me to direct my attention to that as fully 
 as possible. He stated that he considered the rates of transportation 
 entirely too high, and it was desirable to reduce them as rapidly as the 
 development of business would justify, so as to still be able to maintain 
 revenue enough to pay the expense of operating the road and the 
 interest on their debts; but,' so far as practicable, to pay particular af 
 tention to that point and endeavor to accomplish that object and I 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 399 
 
 will say that the development of the resources will be the policy of the 
 line. The increase of business by low rates as fast as practicable is the 
 great object that is sought for. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. What competing lines have you to help you along in that desire? 
 
 A. We have Gen. Mahone's line, the Atlantic, Mississippi and Ohio, 
 running from Norfolk across the State to Chattanooga, and that is the 
 only line which comes in direct competition with us in Virginia. The 
 Chesapeake and Ohio Poad reaches a different territory in the West and 
 we regard them rather as an auxiliary. We distribute produce from the 
 West brought by the Chesapeake and Ohio Eoad, and last spring we 
 carried as many as twenty or thirty car-loads a day brought by them to 
 Eichmond for distribution in the South. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with the line of the Chesapeake and Ohio Eoad ? 
 
 A. I have been over it as far as White Sulphur Springs, not beyond 
 that point, and three years ago surveyed a parallel line a short distance 
 south of it. 
 
 Q. Are you able from your knowledge of the country to give us any 
 general view of the comparison of facilities and advantages it has in 
 competing with trade from the West to East. I mean, taking as far 
 west as Cincinnati, what advantages has it over the Pennsylvania line, 
 or over the Baltimore and Ohio line, or what advantages have they 
 over it ? 
 
 A. The only physical advantage that it has is its low grade. Its 
 maximum grade from the Ohio Eiver east is but 30 feet to the mile, and 
 that is maximum grade against the tonnage ; while, if the new low- 
 grade line should be made from Clifton Forge to Eichmond, the grades 
 will be generally descending in that direction, and there will be no 
 higher grade encountered. The maximum grade on the Pennsylvania 
 road eastward is 52^ feet to the mile. The maximum grade of the 
 Baltimore and Ohio, I think, is 116 feet to the mile. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Q. Eastward? 
 
 A. I am not quite certain as to that, whether it is in one direction or 
 both. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. How is it in regard to distance from Cincinnati to Eichmond, and 
 Cincinnati to Philadelphia, or Cincinnati to Baltimore ? 
 
 A. I could not answer immediately without referring to the guide- 
 books. My attention has not been called to that point particularly. I 
 should think the distance to tide-water would be rather less by the 
 Chesapeake and Ohio Eoad than by the other lines. The information is 
 very easily obtained, however. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What are the charges per ton per mile on your road on the lowest 
 class freight ? 
 
 A. They vary according to circumstances. We have offered to carry 
 iron ore as low as a cent and a half per ton per mile. 
 
 Q. At what price do you carry grain ? 
 
 A. There is very little grain carried. We carry some in the shape of 
 flour or meal. It comes in the lowest class. 
 
 Q. Do your remember what your charges are for the lowest class? 
 
400 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. I think for distribution to local consumers along the line the lowest 
 charge is about three and a half to four cents per ton per mile. 
 
 Q. I meant for through freights ? 
 
 A. They are governed entirely by competition ; we always carry as 
 low as by any other line. 
 By Mr. Conkling : , 
 
 Q. Cannot the Chesapeake and Ohio Road carry freights cheaper than 
 these other roads, aside from the grain ? 
 
 A. It might to some extent, but the obstruction from snows, except 
 in high latitudes, is not very serious. The machinery is of such a char- 
 acter and the trains run with such frequency on these roads that very 
 little difficulty is experienced on the Baltimore and Ohio and Pennsyl- 
 vania lines. 
 
 Q. Obstruction from temperature, though, is a great element in winter, 
 is it not ? 
 
 A. It is not very serious with the steel rails, which are now used on 
 these lines. 
 
 Q. But as to the rolling-stock ; the running-gear of trains f 
 
 A. No calculations or estimates have ever been made indicating that 
 there is a very serious difference in such expenses on account of tem- 
 perature. I have had no experience in roads farther north than the 
 Pennsylvania Bailroad, and during my connection with that road it was 
 not observed that there was any very material difference in expense at 
 that time, nor have we noticed anything in the South, with the excep- 
 tion of the slides that occur iu consequence of the frost and wet weather. 
 That would add in some cases materially to the expense of operating a 
 road in the winter season. 
 
 By Mr. SHERMAN : 
 
 Q. What is the general price for carrying passengers in the South ? 
 
 A. About 4 to 5 cents per passenger per mile for local, and about 
 three cents for through. 
 
 Q. Why is it so much greater in the South than in the North ? 
 
 A. In consequence of the very sparse population, and the inability to 
 meet expenses even at those rates, and because the business is not large 
 enough to justify a reduction, and could not be materially increased 
 thereby. The population is limited, and not of such a character that 
 there would be an increase of travel consequent upon the reduction of 
 rates ; it is not expedient, or indeed practicable, to reduce them. Very 
 few of the roads in the South are earning more than enough to pay 
 operating expenses, and a large proportion of them do not pay the inter- 
 , est on their debts. 
 
 Q. What is the general rate of freight per ton per mile as compared 
 with northern roads ? 
 
 A. Very much higher. The average on most of the southern roads 
 will run from 4 to 5 cents per ton per mile for local freights, while on the 
 northern roads, the Pennsylvania Eoad particularly, the same class of 
 freight would be carried for less than 2 cents per ton per mile. 
 
 Q. It is then double in the South 1 
 
 A. I should think that would be a fair estimate. 
 
 Q. What reason do you give for that 1 
 
 A. The small amount of business and the necessity of charging higher 
 rates in consequence. For example, the Eichmond and Danville Eoad 
 carries 130,000 tons. The Pennsylvania Eailroad carries 8,000,000 tons. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 401 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. Have you no maximum by charter as to passengers or freight, of 
 what you may charge a mile ? 
 
 A. There are limits of charges upon many of the roads. I am not 
 able to say whether there is on the Richmond and Danville or not ; 
 the charges are less than on other roads in the South. 
 
 Q. Is there not as to your own road ? 
 
 A. I am speaking now of our own road. I have not examined that 
 point ; the question has never been raised. I have only. been connected 
 with the line about a year. If there is a limit I have no doubt we are 
 very much below. There are limits on some roads, I know. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. What is the comparative cost of building a railroad in the South and 
 in the North ? Is it not much cheaper in the South ? 
 
 A. That depends upon circumstances. 
 
 Q. Is not the country generally more level, and timber cheaper?. 
 
 A. Along the Atlantic States the cost of building roads in the South 
 is generally cheaper than in the North, but the east and. west lines have 
 cost about as much. The most expensive road in the United States yet 
 constructed was part of the Chesapeake and Ohio Road. The mount- 
 ain division of it has cost $200,000 a mile, while the cost of crossing 
 the Alleghany Mountains on the Pennsylvania Railroad is very con- 
 siderably less ; less than half that cost. 
 
 By Mr. CONKXING : 
 
 Q. Why was that? 
 
 A. It was in consequence of adopting a line of very low grades, and 
 very favorable characteristics, and a more expensive country over which 
 to locate the road. The road is a better road, so far as grades are con- 
 cerned, than the Pennsylvania Boad; 52^ on the Pennsylvania, and on 
 the Chesapeake and Ohio 30 feet. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Is not the right of way in the South much cheaper than in the 
 North ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; it is in many cases given without charge; but it is also 
 frequently given without charge in the North. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do you prorate with any water line? 
 
 A. With several of them. We prorate, in fact, with all the water 
 lines with which we come in connection. 
 
 Q. On what terms ? 
 
 A. The usual prorating distance for the river and bay lines is about 
 two miles for one, and the ocean steamers about three miles for one. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Three of water to one of rail ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I think that is about the ratio with the Savannah and 
 Charleston and Wilmington lines, three of water to one of rail; on the 
 York Eiver lines, including the bay line, prorating at 2J. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. Who pays the terminal charges ; the transfer charges ? 
 
 A. There is a small arbitrary sometimes exacted, and sometimes not. 
 There are also certain arbitraries charged for transshipment; for the 
 use of the connection track in Eichmond when freights come by rail. 
 
 26 is 
 
402 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 That arbitrary depends upon local circumstances. Very generally no 
 arbitrary is charged for terminal charge. 
 
 Q. I understood you that the reason that the Pennsylvania Boad, 
 and other large roads, charge less in the North than you do in the 
 South was because of the large amount of business they did. Now, how 
 about the smaller roads in the North which do not do any more business 
 than yours, when their charges are, perhaps, one-half of yours ■! How 
 do you account for that 1 
 
 A. I am not aware that such is the fact. I have not examined par- 
 ticularly with reference to that point in order to obtain information in 
 regard to it ; but there are very few roads in the North that are not lo- 
 cated and constructed through populations much more dense than can 
 be found in the Southern States. In the Southern States the popula- 
 tions are very sparse indeed. There are very few manufacturing opera- 
 tions carried on, the population is almost entirely agricultural, the 
 amount raised is very limited, the amount required is also limited, and 
 it is a population, moreover, that is not in the habit of moving about a 
 great deal ; so that it does not furnish a large amount of passenger busi- 
 ness or freight transportation to the railroads. 
 
 Q. I should probably have said West instead of North. Do you know 
 any road in the North, or in the West, no matter how short, that charges 
 five cents a mile for passengers 1 
 
 A. I have not looked into that question. The five cents is only 
 charged for local passengers, and generally for short distances. On 
 part of our line it is but 3 cents. 
 
 Q. Do you know any road, North or West, that charges four cents per 
 ton per mile for freight as a rule ? 
 
 A. I have not had occasion recently to examine the toll-sheets of 
 roads in that locality with which we have no connection; my attention 
 has not been directed to them. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. You mentioned Atlanta as a southern competitive point of these 
 two roads in competition with yours. What northern points of com- 
 petition are there."? 
 
 A. Nearly all the travel between the South and North centers in New 
 York. New York might be considered as a northern competitive point, 
 and the various lines running to and from New York. Most of the 
 freight lines run from New York by water to the Atlantic ports, aixl 
 from those Atlantic potts to Atlanta, or New Orleans, as a southern ter- 
 minus. 
 
 W. P. Burrell : 
 
 Mr. Chairman, for the first seven months of 1S73 the tax paid upon 
 tobacco iu the city of Eichmond was $2,058,131.10. Taking that as an 
 average, five months additional would give the sum of $3,558,131.12. 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. Does all the tobacco manufactured here pay its tax here? 
 Answer. Yes, sir; under the law of June 6, 1872. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. Give the number of pounds that that tax indicates. 
 A. Seventeen million seven hundred and ninety thousand six hundred 
 and ten pounds. 
 Q. That is chewing-tobacco ? 
 A. Yes, sir; we make very little except chewing. I do not suppose, 
 
TRANSPORT ATION TO THE SEABOARD. 403 
 
 indeed, there is more than 500,000 pounds of cut tobacco; but it all bears 
 the same tax now, under the act of 1872. The amount of money paid as 
 tax on tobacco in Richmond from May, 1867, to July, 1873, was $10,- 
 124,576.03 ; but that is not a fair exhibit of the amount of revenue paid 
 by the product of this city, because there was a large shipment iu bond 
 to all the ports of entry down to July, 1872. Under the act of July 20, 
 1868, there were shipments in bond. This tobacco, of course, when it 
 went out of the country from New York, Baltimore, and Boston, paid no 
 tax. If withdrawn from those bonded warehouses they paid thirty-two 
 cents. There was twenty-one million and some hundred thousand 
 pounds of tobacco shipped from Virginia the year ending the 30th of 
 Juue, 1872. There was about one-tenth of that amount shipped to . 
 foreign countries. There are three other large points of manufacture of 
 tobacco, Lynchburgh, Danville, and Petersburgh. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 Q. Where did you get those figures? 
 A. From the custom-house, sir. 
 
 Lewis D. Crenshaw: 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. State the capacity of the Richmond flour-mills for a day, a 
 month, or year. 
 
 Answer. I think the capacity of the present mills is about 650,000 
 to 700,000 barrels of flour a year. The wheat coming to the city 
 is so much reduced, or the production since 1861 has been so much re- 
 duced, that none of the mills have done more than probably one-third of 
 a year's work — between a third and a half. 
 
 Q. Can you give the actual production of a single year during the last 
 year or two ? 
 
 A. I ought to be able to do that, but I do not carry them in my mind 
 particularly. I think that the production in the city of Richmond, last- 
 year, was about somewhere in the neighborhood of 230,000 barrels. 
 
 Q. Is that production from Virginia wheat? 
 
 A. From Virginia wheat. The mills are making, very great efforts, 
 now, to bring wheat from other States. 
 
 Q. What States do you get it from and by what routes? 
 
 A. From Ohio, and there is a good deal of wheat in transitu now from 
 Milwaukee to Richmond. 
 
 Q. By way of New York? 
 
 A. I think it comes part of the way by the Pennsylvania Railroad; 
 probably a part of the way on the lake, and from that to this point upon 
 rail, but the rates of transportation are so very great that we find it very 
 difficult to compete with other mills having greater facility. 
 
 Q. What is the rate per bushel from Milwaukee? 
 
 A. I hope I may be pardoned for referring to my own operations. 
 We are advised of purchases there at about $1.11. We are told that the 
 wheat will cost us here $1.50 J. 
 
 Q. About 40 cents, then ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we are looking to Saint Louis. I am very desirous of 
 getting some of that wheat. It is quoted to us at $1.55 to $1.58, with 
 a freight of 57 cents per hundred pounds ; that would be 34£ cents per 
 bushel. From Toledo, Ohio, we have several lots of wheat, 10,000 
 bushels each. I think the freight from Toledo is 52 cents, while to Bal- 
 timore it is only 35 cents, making a difference against us of 10J cents 
 per bushel. I have been looking to Ohio and Kentucky, but the weather 
 
404 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 in that region of country seemed to have been very injurious to the 
 wheat at the time of harvest and thrashing, and I have seen no sam- 
 ples from that region of country that I would risk in flour. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. Cannot you bring wheat from Baltimore here for less than ten 
 cents a bushel 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How can there be a difference of 10^ cents between you and Bal- 
 timore? 
 
 A. I speak of the railroad transportation ; but then I have to pay 5£ 
 cents freight, one-half a cent wharfage; that is six cents. I have to in- 
 sure it, and full insurance would be at least one cent now, because we 
 have to insure at a pretty high average ; that would be seven cents. 1 
 would have to pay a commission merchant there for attending to the re- 
 ceipt and shipment; that would be two cents, making nine ; and then 
 the transfer from the elevator I think is three-fourths of a cent, so that 
 there would be very little difference. Then there is no one who stands 
 between me and the person with whom I deal in Toledo. 
 
 Q. How much more does your flour bring, if any, than Baltimore 
 flour* 
 
 A. We cannot claim more than one millrei and a half, but the pur- 
 chasers do not admit that. 
 
 Q. How much is that reduced to our currency f 
 
 A. A millrei is about fifty cents. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Is a large portion of your production shipped to South America ? 
 
 A. Until within the last three months almost exclusively everything, 
 except the lowest grade of flour, say ten per cent, of the grinding. At 
 our particular mill we have turned our attention more in the last 
 three or four months to grinding for home consumption, simply because 
 we prefer two strings to our bow. 
 
 Q. Do the vessels that take it to the different foreign ports come to 
 your town ? 
 
 A. When we sell flour to the New York shippers they charter vessels 
 to come around. The Baltimore exporters generally ship in their own 
 vessels, and are very much averse to sending them to Bichmond. Pre- 
 vious to 1861 there were a good many vessels owned here at Bichmond. 
 I was interested in some six or eight myself. My brothers and myself 
 had five, and we imported coffee, and the business was increasing very 
 rapidly. We brought in a good deal of sugar, and we only wait now 
 for a line west with means of getting the coffee, dealing with the -other 
 cities in the West and sending the coffee through at a low rate and with- 
 out detention, to resume that business. 
 
 Mr. Conkling-. What is the aversionof Baltimore to sendher steamers 
 here '! 
 
 A. They say that it is on account of the river ; but it is very natural 
 that every citizen should want to build up his own town, and they throw 
 all of their influence in favor of the Baltimore mills as much as they 
 can, while the factor — the commission-merchant in Brazil — has a very 
 great influence at work upon him to do all that he can for the Baltimore 
 mills, because vessels bringing them Baltimore flour generally have 
 orders for a return cargo of coffee.- There has been very little* coffee 
 imported into Bichmond for the last five or six years. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 405 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 Q. Did you import much here before the war? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I think we had gotten up here to about 60,000 or 70,000 
 bags, and the business was increasing very rapidly. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. What is the reason you do not count more upon the Chesapeake 
 and Ohio Bailway 1 
 
 A. The Chesapeake and Ohio Eailroad has not yet completed its con- 
 nections, and there is too much uncertainty up to this time in sending 
 freight through. We bought twenty-five car-loads of corn in Illinois — 
 we purchased it from a party here who was in the city. The corn was to 
 come from Illinois the 25th of July, and we only got the last two or three 
 car-loads last week. One other purchase that we made, thirty car-loads 
 of corn, fell short about twelve hundred bushels. That was owing to its 
 transshipment at Cincinnati. W e have net yet been able to get any 
 satisfactory settlement 
 
 Q. In other words, the route, I suppose, is not yet really opened to 
 do business ? 
 
 A. I suppose not. 
 
 Q. What facilities will you have with the Chesapeake and Ohio Eoad, 
 as compared with the facilities from Baltimore to Cincinnati S Have you 
 not the same in every respect ? 
 
 A. I have been to see the vice-president of the road, and at one time 
 he agreed that he would bring the freight at the same, but when he came 
 to find out what the rate was, he said he could not do it from Toledo, 
 Ohio. 
 
 Q. But from Cincinnati, Ohio, to Bichmond, have not you full as good 
 a route in every respect as from Cincinnati to Baltimore 1 
 
 A. I should think so, sir, except that there has to be a transfer of 
 boat. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. What size vessels come here, how much water is there, and what 
 tonnage do they take away from your wharves ? 
 
 A There were vessels owned here at Bichmond that carried away 
 about 4,500 to 4,800 barrels of flour, but they carried down probably 
 from 1,000 to 1,200 barrels some distance below the bar on lighters. The 
 largest vessel that my brothersand myself owned carried 3,800 barrels of 
 flour. She brought in 550 bags of coffee. With the improvements they 
 are making in the James River now, and the depth of water which it is 
 presumed will be obtained, those vessels would come and go without any 
 detention at all. 
 
 Q. How many feet would they draw ? 
 
 A. I suppose the largest of them would draw loaded probably thirteen 
 feet — perhaps thirteen and a half. 
 
 Q. What depth do you anticipate upon the finishing of your contem- 
 plated improvements ? 
 
 A. I heard the president of the chamber of commerce say to-day that 
 tliey would have eighteen feet. 
 
 Q. How soon 2 
 
 A. He said within a year, if my memory serves me. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 Q. About what average depth of water have you now ? 
 A. Twelve and a half feet, I think, sir, high tide. 
 Q. How high does the tide rise here ? 
 
406 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. Somewhere about four feet, I think. I am not positive, however. 
 Q. You have only about eight and a half feet, then, at low water"? 
 A. Yes, sir, probably, across the bar. • 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Q. How far is the bar below "? 
 A. It is about five miles. 
 Q. Are you now dredging that ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you have tides here regularly, high and low water each day ? 
 A. Yes, sir ; twice a day. 
 
 James M. Harris : 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q, State what your relation has been to this proposed James Eiver 
 and Kanawha Canal, or tunnel. 
 
 A. I was an assistant of Mr. Lorraine in making the survey under the 
 orders of Colonel Oraighill in 1871. 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. Which part of it had you charge of specially % 
 
 A. I had 'charge from G-reenbrier bridge to Paint Creek. 
 
 Q. Down New Eiver 2 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; Green Brier and New Eiver and Kanawha. 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. You understand the points that we are aiming to obtain informa- 
 tion upon. Proceed in your own way to give us anyknowledge you have. 
 
 The Chairman. Before you proceed let me ask if Mr. Lorraine was 
 the engineer of the company at this time ; was he employed by the Gov- 
 ernment or by the canal company ? 
 
 Col. Charles S. Cakrington. If the chairman will allow me, Mr. 
 Lorraine was the chief engineer of the James Eiver and Kanawha 
 Company, and had been for fifteen or twenty years. He is now dead. 
 He died after making the detailed location and survey of the western 
 part of this line under the last appropriation by Congress. He died 
 while making his report. I may be pardoned for saying, sir, that a 
 man more eminent in his profession as a hydraulic engineer, not only 
 because of culture, but because of experience and of high character, 
 does not exist. I am sure that his standing in the profession was as 
 eminent, to the extent that it was known, as any man in the United 
 States. Under the first appropriation by Congress Colonel Craighill, 
 under the order of the War Department, on account of the eminence of 
 Mr. Lorraine, selected him to make the survey of the tunnel line ; to 
 make that survey which decided the question of the practicability of 
 the route. Mr. Lorraine declined to do so. He said that he had re- 
 ported in connection with other engineers upon that very question, and 
 that, having so reported, and this being a survey of the United States 
 Government, he thought it ought to be made "by the officers of the 
 United States Government. Afterwards, when it' came to the detailed 
 location of the line, which was a mere practical matter, the engineers of 
 the United States having reported the lino entirely practicable, Mr. 
 Lorraine then consented to make the detailed location of the line, His 
 connection with the survey was that. He was at the same time the 
 chief engineer of the James Eiver and Kanawha Company, and he did 
 make the detailed location, a mere matter of detail ; he consented to that, 
 Mr. Harris was his assistant. 
 
 Mr. Harris, (resuming.) One of the inquiries submitted was this : 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 407 
 
 The supply of water for the summit level, and facts in relation to 
 the most formidable engineering difficulties to be overcome. The 
 question of carrying a continuous canal across the Alleghany Mount- 
 ains by uniting the head-waters of the James and Kanawha Eivers has 
 been agitated ever since this region was surveyed by Capt. William G. 
 McNeil and his corps of topographical engineers in 1827, under orders 
 of the War Department. All of. the engineers concur in the opinion 
 that there will be an abundant supply of water for a canal on this route. 
 The last survey was made by William E. Button, under the. direction of 
 Col. William P. Craighill, of the United States Corps of Engineers. He 
 reports, after supplying all deficiencies which may exist in the natural 
 stream in the driest season to supply an enlarged canal that there would 
 remain in the Anthony Creek reservoir a surplus of 3,512,496,220 cubic 
 feet of water. See page 19, 56, and 57 of Colonel Craighill's report to 
 the War Department in 1871 on this subject. It will be seen at page 
 56 and 57 that Mr. Lorraine demonstrates clearly that the Anthony Creek 
 reservoir would supply the summit-level, and leave a surplus for con- 
 tingencies of 213,165 cubic yards per day. Since the foregoing estimate 
 was made, the summit-level has been lowered 221 feet, so as to take in 
 Greenbrier River, a stream 100 yards wide, as a feeder, and will have 
 Anthony's Creek reservoir in addition to draw from if required. I think, 
 then, there cannot be the least reason to doubt that there will be any 
 deficiency in water to supply the largest canal the Government may deem 
 proper to construct. 
 
 I will read a letter from a report of Mr. Edward Lorraine on this .same 
 subject of the Anthony Creek reservoir : 
 
 As doubts have been suggested as to the adaptation of this valley for the purpose of 
 a reservoir, and vague surmises expressed as to fissures and caverns in the sides of the 
 mountain through which the water would leak out, an eminent practical geologist was 
 employed to make an examination of the geological structure of the site of this reser- 
 voir, who reported that if the engineers had the choice of the rocks of this region, it 
 would be difficult to show how they could make a better disposition of them. He 
 also expressed the opinion that the building a dam across the gorge of the mountain 
 would produce the condition that once existed, as there was abundant evidence to 
 prove that the valley had been once occupied by a lake, which had subsequently, by 
 the disruption of the mountain, escaped through the gorge. 
 
 Now I am ready to answer any questions that the committee may 
 propound. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. What is the depth of that Greenbrier Creek, that is stated to be 
 a hundred yards wide, that would be added to the supply of water by 
 lowering this tunnel 216 feet ? 
 
 A. It is very shallow in the driest season. But it is navigable to 
 bateaux for a large portion of the year. 
 
 Q. It struck me as being a considerable body of water if it was a 
 hundred yards wide. 
 
 A. Three hundred feet is about the average width. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. In low water? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is about the bed of the stream. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of the tunnel itself? 
 
 A. No, sir; I never made any survey of that part of the line. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Q. Dirt you ever estimate as to the cost ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I have been over the calculation that Mr. Lorraine and 
 Mr. Hutton made. 
 
408 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By the Chairman: . , „ nn t\rnh\(> 
 
 Q. You believe the descent down the other side entirely practicable, 
 
 do you % 
 A. I do. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : , • , 
 
 Q. What was your conclusion as to the estimates of cost which you 
 
 "LTtKS S^ate is very fbll. The work can be done for the 
 estimate. It is from fifty to seventy-live per cent, higher than I have 
 bad the same sort of work estimated and done. 
 Q. Done? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do I understand you right when I say that I 
 A. The estimate is from fifty to seventy -five per cent, higher than sim- 
 ilar work that I have had done. 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. In that locality ? 
 
 A. I never have had it done in that locality, but I think it can be 
 
 done much cheaper there than where I had it done if the price of labor 
 
 be the same. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had any experience in the construction of tunnels? 
 
 A. No, sir ; my experience has principally been confined to building 
 
 dams. 
 
 Q. Is there any difficulty whatever in damming the descending streams 
 on the western side ? 
 A. I do not think there is any difficulty, sir. It would be expensive. 
 By Mr. Davis: 
 
 Q. Did you make the estimates of it ? 
 A. Yes, sir; I did. 
 
 Q. Did you make them what you believed to be ample ? 
 A. I did, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you add anything to your estimate of them for contingencies 1 
 A. I think ten per cent. 
 
 Q. You made the estimate when you made it from the canal to the 
 Kanawha River, to where the open work would be on the canal ? 
 
 A. I made the estimate from the mouth of Howard's Creek to Paint 
 Creek, or rather, to the falls of Kanawha. Mr. Lorraine made a separate 
 report of the Kanawha Eiyer, from the falls to the mouth. 
 
 Q. It was that part of the open navigation that would have to have 
 dams that you located ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What size vessel did you estimate for, what sizes were your locks? 
 feeTlorgV^SfeTtwMe?^ 11 river and ^mboat navigation were 240 
 Q. How deep ? 
 A. Seven feet deep on the sills. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. What capacity of vessel will that accommodate? 
 A. I think my estimate was put at 800 tonvwiw ■ 7 r ^ 
 the capacity of the canal at 700 tons for Z ' .* I thmk J made out 
 Q. For vessels of 700 tons f that part of the line. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 Q. You understand that if the improvements were mdea on the Ka- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 409 
 
 na\vha, and Greenbrier, and the New Eiver, by such locks and dams as 
 you have spoken of, a vessel of 700 tons can come from the Ohio through 
 the tunnel ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The slack-water navigation begins, as I understand it, immediate- 
 ly west of the tunnel t 
 
 A. About two miles. It commences at Greenbrier bridge, on the 
 Greenbrier Eiver. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Did you estimate for the water in the open canal, that yon would 
 have abundance ! 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I went over the calculations. 
 
 Q. You gauged it and found it would be ample ? 
 
 A. No, sir, I did not gauge the river myself; but I took the data that 
 had been established heretofore by Mr. Gill, and took the quantity that 
 would be retained in these reservoirs by parties who had located them, 
 Mr. Ellet and others. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Do you propose to dam the Greenbrier right at where the canal 
 crosses it or above ? 
 
 A. For a feeder there would be a dam a few miles above this point, 
 and carried in by a feeder to the summit-level. 
 
 Q. Then you lock down into this river ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. The understanding is that the whole volume of the Greenbrier may 
 be turned into this summit-level ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS: 
 
 Q. The New Eiver comes from the south ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Does that freeze up as quickly as the ones coming from the north ? 
 Do you know anything about the length of time the New Eiver is likely 
 to keep open longer than the Kanawha and Ohio % 
 
 A. The Kanawha is a part of the New Eiver. The New Eiver and 
 Greenbrier Eiver form the Kanawha. The source of the New Eiver is 
 in the south. Its head is in North Carolina. 
 
 Q. Is its water the same temperature of the Gauley % 
 
 A. That is a colder stream, I think, sir ; that runs rather north. 
 
 Col. Charles S. Carrington : 
 By Mr. SHERMAN : 
 
 Question. What disposition is proposed to be made of the private 
 rights of stockholders of the canal company in case the Government 
 of the United States should conclude to assist in buiiding the canal 
 now owned by private citizens ? 
 
 Answer. The capital stock of the James Eiver and Kanawha Com- 
 pany, is $12,400,000, of which $10,400,000 belongs to the State of Vir- 
 ginia, and $2,000,000 to private stockholders. Seven million four 
 hundred thousand dollars of this State stock is preferred stock. The 
 statement of Mr. Bocock of the debt' relations of the State and company 
 is correct as to these relations prior to 1860 or 1861. Then the State re- 
 leased the mortgages executed by the company for its benefit, and in- 
 vested its whole debt in the stock of the company. The bill for the 
 completion of the canal, reported back by the Committee on Commerce 
 
410 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 for the consideration of the House of Eepresentatives during its last 
 session 
 
 By Mr. Conkling- : 
 
 Q. Do you mean the house of representatives of Virginia? 
 
 A. No, sir ; the House of Eepresentatives of the United States. This 
 bill is found in Eeport No. 76 of the reports of the Committee on Com- 
 merce of the House of Eepresentatives, Forty-second Congress, third 
 session, and as to this private stock directs as follows : 
 
 And provided further, That the Secretary of War shall purchase, or contract to pur- 
 chase all private stock in said James River and Kanawha Company at a price not ex- 
 ceeding twenty-five dollars per share of said stock of one hundred dollars par value : 
 or in the event that any owner or owners of said private stock in said company shall 
 refuse to sell the same at twenty-five dollars per share, then provided the State of Vir- 
 ginia shall condemn for the United States Government such stock, or authorize the 
 Secretary of War, or his authorized agent, to condemn the same for the benefit of the 
 United States; the owner of said stock in either case to be paid the fair market valae 
 for the same, as ascertained by such condemnation, to the end that all the titles, fran- 
 chises, interests, and property, of whatever character, of the said States of Virginia 
 and West Virginia, upon the conditions hereinbefore mentioned, and of tho private 
 stockholders of the James River and Kanawha Company, shall be vestc d iu and be- 
 come the property of the United States. 
 
 The memorials of States and commercial bodies to the Congress of 
 the United States, in connection with this line, indicate the wish that 
 all private and corporate proprietorship in it should be extinguished by 
 the General Government, and that in its construction and control there 
 should be all possible guarantees for providing and preserving for the 
 people of the whole country the best and cheapest transportation prac- 
 ticable. The memorial of the National Board of Trade urged the com- 
 pletion of this line at the earliest possible period, and also that the ex- 
 tinguishment of all private interest should be a condition precedent to 
 the grant of aid by the General Government. This memorial also rec- 
 ommended that the cost of construction, as represented by the ontlay of 
 the State of Virginia, should be fully re-imbursed to that State. This is 
 the outlay, besides other property and interests, which is tendered by 
 the States of Virginia and West Virginia in their memorial to Congress 
 for the acceptance of the General Government, upon the condition of 
 completing and controlling the line in the interest of the people of the 
 whole country. The memorial of the National Board of Trade also 
 first suggested the plan of constructing, and perhaps managing, the line 
 through a board of commissioners appointed by the General Government 
 and by the States named in the memorial. The blank iu the bill as to 
 the price to be paid for the private stock was filled with $25 per 
 share of $100, par value, after consultation with certain leading citizens 
 of the valley of the Mississippi, who, in the interest of the country, have 
 given some attention to the subject of transportation between that 
 valley and the sea-board. In 1870 or 1S71 there was sent to each of 
 these gentlemen, for their revision, a manuscript copy of the first bill 
 presented to Congress for the completion of this line, and to a portion 
 or all of them a statement showing the facts from which the conclusion 
 was drawn that $25 per share should be paid for the private stock, and 
 their opinion asked as to its correctness. These facts in substauce were 
 the following : That probably more than one-third of the private stock 
 was now owned by original subscribers at a cost per share of $100 prin- 
 cipal money. The city of Eichmoud owns $500,000 of such stock, the 
 city of Lynchburgh $67,300, and Washington and Lee University $10,000 
 che gift originally of General Washington to Washington College. It 
 further appears that probably one-third of this stock was held by private 
 citizens at a cost of from $15 to $20 per share, bought in 1860 or '61, 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 411 
 
 when it was believed that the line would be completed under a then 
 agreement between the State of Virginia and private stockholders with 
 aFrench company, and that the remainder, less than one-third, had 
 probably changed hands since the war at from three to six dollars per 
 share. It was also known that while a constant struggle had to be 
 maintained with some parties to preserve the line in its entire length 
 in the possession of the States of Virginia and West Virginia to pre- 
 vent its being dissevered and a part with the States and a part with 
 private parties, until the General Government should decide whether 
 it would accept or reject the application of these States for its com- 
 pletion, and with other parties who sought the possession of the line 
 probably only for speculation, still there were other parties who legit- 
 imately desired that these States should make to them the same con- 
 cessions as to the General Government, and who designed in good 
 faith to do all which they might agree to do in connection with the 
 completion of the line. It was also believed that such last-men- 
 tioned parties, in the event of agreement with these States, would prefer 
 to extinguish this private stock, at least by payment in the stock of the 
 new organization, share for share. The contingent value of the stock 
 was regarded as entitled to an equitable consideration, and was brought to 
 the attention of some of the gentlemen referred to during the last 
 session of Congress, when I think this blank in the bill was first actually 
 filled with $25 per share as the price to be paid for the stock. It is not 
 improbable that a large portion of this stock would be surrendered for 
 a much smaller sum. The incidental advantages to the cities of Rich- 
 mond and Lynchburgh, and to the States of Virginia and West Virginia, 
 on the completion of the line, would be so great, that I doubt not these 
 cities and many citizens would, if necessary to secure it, surrender 
 their stock without charge. The only question considered was, what 
 was the just, equitable price which the Government should pay for this 
 private stock, and the conclusion that $500,000 should be paid for the 
 $2,000,000 was reached after consideration of the facts and after con- 
 ference with only one of these stockholders, perhaps two, both of whom 
 would surrender their stock if necessary without charge, and with emi- 
 nent citizens looking at the whole subject only in the light of the public 
 interest. As to the market value of the $10,400,000 par value of the 
 stock of the State I have no knowledge. A leading member of the 
 senate of Virginia stated in his place, last winter or the winter before, 
 that he was informed that there were parties who would pay the State 
 $2,000,000 for this interest. Neither Uhe parties nor their purpose in 
 purchasing were mentioned. t 
 
 By Mr. Sherman: 
 
 Q. Is there any debt on the canal ? 
 
 A. The debt is $1,250,000, secured by two mortgages; the first 
 mortgage for $750,000 and the second for $500,000. The 3d section of 
 the bill mentioned provides for the payment of "the debts of the 
 James River and Kanawha Company, and of that portion of the afore- 
 said water-way which lies in the State of West Virginia, and wbici is 
 
 under the control of said State, to an amount not exceeding 
 
 dollars, or make proper provision for the payment of said debts." 
 
 It was proposed to fill this blank with the sum of $1,500,000, to 
 include a contingent liability of the James Eiver and Kanawha Com- 
 pany for an alleged debt of $100,000 or more, which is the subject 
 of litigation now pending in the court of appeals of Virginia. Also for 
 the contingency of possible indebtedness of that portion of this line 
 
412 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 in West Virginia. The sum to be paid is limited to prevent the possible 
 assertion and payment of unjust claims. 
 By Mr. OonklinG: 
 
 Q. How old are these mortgages? 
 
 A. They were both executed since the war. 
 
 Q. Has the interest been paid ? 
 
 A. It has on all of the bonds which have been issued under the mort- 
 gages. With reference to the bill for the completion of this line pend- 
 : ing during the last session of Congress, I ask permission to say that 
 much thought and labor have been bestowed upon it, that the great 
 interest which it seeks to promote may be best secured to the country. 
 Manuscript copies of the first bill were sent, as just mentioned, for the 
 revision of gentlemen eminent for character and ability, and, at the 
 then succeeding session of Congress, this bill was presented, to the 
 House of Eepresentatives and ordered to be printed. Its provisions 
 were again subjected to a critical examination ; but in view of their im- 
 portance and of the ability and experience of General Humphreys, 
 Chief of Engineers, the Hon. Mr. Kerr, of Indiana, and the Hon. Mr. 
 Stevenson, of Ohio, united in a letter to this distinguished officer, ask- 
 ing his revision of this bill with such amendments as he thought proper 
 to promote the public interest. This letter was referred to Col. W. 
 P. Craighill, who returned a paper suggesting important and salutary 
 changes in the bill. This paper, with a letter from General Humphreys, 
 showing the circumstances under which it had been prepared, was com- 
 municated directly by that officer to the House of Eepresentatives and 
 ordered to be printed and referred to the Committee on Commerce. 
 During the last session of Congress, with the aid of these previous 
 papers, the bill was framed which was reported by the Committee on 
 Commerce for the consideration of the House of Eepresentatives, and 
 which was pending when the Forty-second Congress expired. I think 
 that this bill is, perhaps, defective in conferring too large a share of 
 power in the management of the completed line with the commissioners 
 of States named, and too small a share to the General Government. My 
 leading purpose in referring to this bill is at least to indicate the earnest 
 wish of all who have had any connection with its preparation, that it 
 shall be made as perfect as possible in promoting the public interest. 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. I see that you are speaking about the details of the bill, but I 
 want to get the amount of individual interest which will have to be dealt 
 with. 
 
 A. The individual interest will be $2,000,000 par value of private 
 stock, and $1,500,000 of debt of the character and condition described. 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. On that subject it occurs to me that I have seen that some portion 
 of this $500,000 has been liquidated. 
 
 A. The debt is as I have stated. All of the Eichmond mortgage 
 bonds have not been issued. 
 
 Q. It is not, then, a debt against the canal ? 
 
 A. It amounts to this, because, though not yet issued, the debt of the 
 canal of every description, as far as I am informed, will, in the aggregate, 
 be $1,250,000, the amount of these mortgages. I mean the debt other than 
 that which I have described as contingent and as possible in West Vir- 
 ginia, and which actual debt and contingency and possibilitv are all in- 
 cluded in the $1,500,000. 
 
 Q. Has this $1,250,000 debt been made since the war ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 413 
 
 A. Kb, sir. All of it, except that necessary to repair the canal after 
 the unprecedented flood of September, 1870, was created before and 
 during the war. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling- : 
 
 Q. Then the bill provides that the. $500,000 shall be paid, and debt 
 not exceeding $1,500,000 ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Then not to exceed $2,000,000 altogether ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Who executed the mortgages on that property 1 
 
 A. They were duly executed by the James Biver and Kanawha Com- 
 pany. 
 
 Q. By the private stockholders also ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Have you a board of trustees ? 
 
 A. The management of the company is with a president and directors. 
 The president is elected annually by the stockholders. These are the 
 State represented by its proxies and the private stockholders. The 
 president and five directors constitute the board of directors. One of 
 these directors is annually elected by the private stockholders, one by 
 the State and private stockholders, and three are appointed by the 
 board of public works of the State, which board also appoints the 
 proxies of the State. 
 
 Q. It was a mortgage, then, given to secure a debt already incurred ? 
 
 A. Yes, to the extent before explained. In the repairs of the canal 
 after the great flood of 1870, the city of Bichmond aided the company 
 by exchanging $200,000 of its bonds for a like number of the second- 
 mortgage bonds of the company. The company received the city bonds 
 and expended the proceeds in the repairs of the canal. The bonds of 
 the company in exchange have not been issued to the city, but are held 
 under agreement to be issued and delivered on the order of the city. 
 This agreement also provided for forbearance for a short term of years 
 in the payment of interest on these bonds. These bonds,*with this un- 
 paid interest, are included in the debt stated as $1,250,000, and all of 
 the debt of the company, except that included in the repairs of the 
 canal after the flood of 1870, was incurred either before or during the 
 war. The mortgages were executed since the war, but the bonds issued 
 under them were used to pay the ante bellum debt, and received at par 
 in such payment. These bonds are six per cent, currency bonds. 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Is the canal now paying its own expenses? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. Its revenues are sufficient for this, not including yet the 
 interest on . the bonds to be issued to the city of Bichmond, as before 
 explained, but will grow to this and beyond as soon as there is any 
 revival of the production of the fertile tonnage basin which it trav- 
 erses. 
 
 Q. What are your rates of toll 1 
 
 A. These are much higher than they would be if the tonnage of the 
 canal was greater. The tonnage basin of the canal is restricted by 
 railroads. These are on both sides of it, a greater or less distance for 
 its whole complete length. The completed canal extends from Bich- 
 mond to Buchanan for 197J miles along the valley of the James Biver. 
 This valley and country adjacent, on both sides of the river, were very 
 fruitful in tonnage before the war. It would be as productive now if 
 
414 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 as well cultivated. In addition to its staple crops of wheat, corn, hay ; 
 and tobacco, the deposits of iron-ore, which were worked on the borders 
 of the canal some 50 or 60 miles east of the Blue Ridge, and the product 
 of its quarries of slate, limestone, and hydraulic cement, and of other 
 minerals, increased the tonnage of the canal. These, with manufactures, 
 to which the line is so well adapted, are now elements of increased ton- 
 nage on the line of the existing canal, tbe growth of which, m the hands 
 of enterprise, capital, and labor, can only be conjectured. The canal, 
 in its progress to the Ohio River, reached only a short distance beyond 
 the eastern border 'of tbe great iron-region of Virginia. Covington, 
 near the foot of the Alleghany Mountains, and 47 miles beyond Bu- 
 -chauan, the present terminus of the completed canal, may be regarded 
 as near the western border of this Virginia iron-region on the line of the 
 projected canal. The falls of the Great Kanawha Biver, distant 
 94 T 2 miles from the mouth of that river at Point Pleasant on the 
 Ohio, may be taken as near the central point on the same line of the 
 Great Kanawha coal-fields. The bill for the completion of the canal 
 provides that the water-way as proposed shall be completed from- Bu- 
 chanan to Covington, and from the mouth of the Kanawha Biver to the 
 Kanawha Falls, within four years from the time that the act takes 
 effect. The 'estimated time for the completion of this work is two 
 years, and the estimated cost $0,015,749.11. This estimate includes 
 the cost of the Meadow Biver reservoir, the value of which is so fuMy 
 explained in the reports before the committee. An expenditure of less 
 than $500,000 in the improvement of the existing canal, from tide- 
 water at Richmond to Buchanan, will give it a capacity of more than 
 3,000,000 of tons annually, at an aggregate cost of transportation to the 
 canal very little greater than the cost of its present tonnage. An ex- 
 penditure of less than $7,000,000 in two years' time, say "three years, 
 will thus provide a water-way for use and revenue, and be in part com- 
 pletion of this central water-line for 244£ miles east of the Alleghany 
 Mountains, of which 198£ miles will be canal and 46 slack-water navi- 
 gation, with a capacity for transportation of 3,000,000 of tons annually, 
 and west of the Alleghany for 94i miles in part completion of the same 
 line, of which 79 miles will be improved open river-navigation and 15i 
 miles slack- water. There will then remain of this central water-line for 
 completion 132 miles and a fraction of a mile, and enlargement of the 
 canal from tide-water at Bichmond to Buchanan in the mode reported 
 by Colonel Craighill, the United States officer in charge of the surveys. 
 
 The eastern and western portions of this line, from Covington to the 
 falls of the Kanawha, will be connected by the Chesapeake and Ohio 
 Eailroad, a distance by rail of 105 miles, with a grade not exceeding 
 thirty feet to the mile. Barges with western freights might then reach 
 the falls of the Kanawha, and there, transferring their freights to the 
 railroad, would find abundant return-freight in the coal, salt, and 
 lumber of that region. 
 
 The railroad might, if it would, transfer the heavy barge-freights to 
 the canal at Covington, and find cheaper transportation for such 
 freights to tide- water over a canal even of present dimensions, and it 
 would also find through this canal the cheapest outlet for the coal of 
 the Kanawha consigned to eastern markets. These coals would also fur- 
 nish fuel without coking for the furnaces which would be established 
 m that iron-region bordering the canal for 70 or 80 miles east of 
 Covington. This region also abounds in the limestone necessary in the 
 manufacture of iron. This mode of constructing the central water-line 
 will give a quick though partial relief to the valley of the Mississippi, 
 will develop great wealth, and much needed by the varied interests of 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 415 
 
 the country, and will very soon Dot only make full payment to the Gen- 
 eral Government of interest on its outlay in construction, bat aid in 
 the construction of the intervening 132 miles of water-way. It would 
 promote the prosperity of the Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad, not only 
 in giving increased tonnage to its one hundred and five miles of inter- 
 vening railroad, with its low grades to Covington, perhaps to Clifton 
 Forge fifteen miles east of Covington, and higher grades beyond, 
 but by aiding in developing a virgin region, perhaps without parallel 
 on the continent in the abundance, variety, and value of its mineral 
 wealth, in giving that population to this region which is not only ex- 
 clusively railroad-freight, but the best, and in increasing its higher-class 
 freights from the East, in the return over its line of the product of the 
 less profitable heavy tonnage transported to the East by the canal. 
 
 Clifton Forge on Jackson's River, a short distance above the junction 
 of that river with the Cow Pasture River, forming James River, is the 
 first point at which the Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad, after leaving 
 tide- water at Richmond, touches the projected central water-line. This 
 point by the water-line is fifteen miles east of Covington and thirty-two 
 miles west of Buchanan. When this water-way shall reach Clifton 
 Forge, the results just mentioned, as to the portion of this line east of 
 the Alleghany, will begin to be realized. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect what your present rates of toll are from Bu- 
 chanan to Richmond ? 
 
 A. I do not ; but there is a statement with the committee which 
 shows this. As just stated, we could transport 3,000,000 of tons at a 
 very small additional expense to the canal — the employment of more 
 clerks would probably be all. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. I understand this proposition is made on condition that a free 
 canal is made. Suppose that the bill should contain a provision where- 
 in the payment of tolls sufficient to meet the interest on the outlay was 
 required, would there be any objection then on the part of the State of 
 Virginia^ 
 
 A. JSTo, sir. The memorials of the States of Virginia and West Vir- 
 ginia say as to this : 
 
 It is respectfully asked that tlie Congress of the United States shall, in such way as 
 may seem to them best, either by direct appropriation or by a loan of the credit of the 
 Government, furnish the means of executing the work in four years. On her part, the 
 State of Virginia will relinquish all her interest in the work, which is represented by 
 more than $10,000,000, of which $7,400,000 is preferred stock, money actually expended 
 in prosecuting the wort to Buchanan, and will turn the work over to the Government 
 to be completed in snch manner as Congress may direct. If Congress shall see fit to 
 complete the work by direct appropriation without a return of the principal and in- 
 terest, Virgiuia will further agree that the water-line, as soon as completed, shall be 
 thrown open to the public, free of toll, except so far as may be necessary to keep the 
 work in repair. This suggestion is made with the broad view that it is a work in 
 which the whole nation will be the stockholders, and that the money paid for its con- 
 struction will be more than returned, every year, principal and interest, in the saving 
 in the cost of transportation, the cheapening of provisions, and the general develop- 
 ment and prosperity of the country. But if this view should not prevail, it is not 
 doubted that the money advanced by the Government could be speedily returned, both 
 principal and interest, from the revenues derived from tolls, and when that shall have 
 been done, then the State will consent that the water-line shall forever be a public 
 highway free of toll, except for purposes of repair. The State of Virginia will agree 
 that the work shall be prosecuted either under the management of the company, sub- 
 ject to such regulations and restrictions as Congress may impose, or by commissioners 
 appointed by the States of Virginia and West Virginia, who will hold the property as 
 a sacred trust for the benefit of the whole^ country under like regulations; or that the 
 prosecution of the work and the management of the property, when it shall have been 
 completed, shall be committed to a board of eleven trustees, one of whom shali be ap- 
 pointed by the President of the United States, and one each by the States of Iowa, Mis- 
 
416 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 souri, Arkansas, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Ohio, Virginia, West Virginia, and Mary- 
 land, as recommended by the National Board of Trade at its annual session m Decem- 
 ber last, or, in any other way in which its construction and management will best pro- 
 mote the prosperity and welfare of the whole country. 
 
 Q. I did not know but that the condition was it should be a free canal 
 at once ? 
 
 A. No, sir. After suggestions as to its construction and management, 
 these States submit to CDngress the decision as to the construction and 
 management which will best promote the prosperity and welfare of the 
 whole country. The bill, however, brings the whole subject again be- 
 fore the States of Virginia and West Virginia, by requiring legislation 
 by these States before anything is done by the General Government 
 toward the completion of the water-line. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. I understand that you are not particularly wedded to the bill 
 presented, but you prefer the bill which is best. 
 
 A. I am not in the least wedded to this bill. I referred to it that the 
 earnest efforts to prepare it with an eye single to the interest of the 
 whole country might appear, and to enlist further efforts in the same 
 direction. That bill will be most acceptable to the people of Virginia 
 and West Virginia which provides and preserves for the whole country 
 the freest and cheapest transportation, and which, in its construction 
 and management, will secure the greatest fidelity to that trust which 
 these States in their memorial describe " as a.sacred trust for the benefit 
 of the whole country." 
 
 It is possible that a statement of some of the results of an examina- 
 tion of the recent reports of survey of this line, made under the orders 
 of the General Government as to its length and character, may aid the 
 committee in their investigation. Three 'appropriations have been made 
 by Congress since 1870 for the survey of this line : two of these for the 
 whole line, and one for the Kanawha River. The object of the first 
 survey was chiefly to throw additional light upon the question, first, of 
 the practicability of the line, and, secondly, if practicable, then of its 
 cost. This survey was committed to Col. W. P. Craighill, an able and 
 experienced officer of the United States Corps of Engineers, and his re- 
 port of the survey was transmitted to Congress in 1871. (Ex. Doc. No. 
 110, Forty-first Congress, third session.) I may mention, incidentally, 
 that, like all previous reports upon this subject, beginning with that of 
 Captain McNeil, United States Corps of Engineers, in 1826 or 1S28, this 
 report regards the question of the practicability of the line as definitely 
 settled. In this connection I ask permission to say that the conduct of 
 this survey was offered to Edward Lorraine, the chief engineer of the 
 James River and Kanawha Company, because of bis eminent qualifica- 
 tions for the work. 
 
 Mr. Lorraine died in December of last year. The high personal 
 character and sound judgment of this gentleman, his professional talents, 
 culture, and experience as a hydraulic engineer, were well known to us 
 in Virginia, and, had he lived, with opportunity of being known pro- 
 fessionally to the country, he would have been recognized as one of its 
 most eminent hydraulic engineers. Mr. Lorraine declined the appoint- 
 ment, which he valued as one of honor and privilege, because this 
 survey involved the inquiry of the practicability of the line, and this in- 
 quiry had been the subject of his examination and favorable report. 
 
 The question of practicability having been considered, Mr. Lorraine 
 consented to make the survey of the Great Kanawha River, a part of the 
 line from the falls to the Ohio, and the detailed survey and location of 
 the line west of the Alleghany Mountains to the falls of the Kanawha. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 417 
 
 The report of Colonel Craighill on the Kanawha Eiver was trans- 
 mitted to the third session of the Forty-second Congress. 
 
 Mr. Lorraine also completed the detailed survey and location of the 
 line west of the Alleghany to the falls of Kanawha, and was employed 
 in writing the report of this survey at the time of his last illness. This, 
 report was completed by his assistant, Mr. James M. Harris. The report 
 of Colonel Craighill of this detailed survey and location will, no doubt, 
 be duly transmitted to Congress at its next session. These reports 
 constitute a full and complete survey, examination and location of this, 
 line in its whole length and in every part of it, from tide-water at 
 Eichmoud to the Ohio River at the mouth of the Kanawha, and furnish 
 detailed estimates of the cost of its completion. 
 These reports show that the actual length of the central 
 water-line from tide- water at Richmond to the Ohio River 
 
 at the mouth of the Kanawha River will be ... , 471. 44 miles. 
 
 And that the actual character of its naviga- 
 tion will be by canal between Richmond 
 and the Greenbrier River at the mouth of 
 
 Howard's Creek 228 miles. 
 
 And by canal between the mouth of How- 
 ard's Creek and the foot of Paint Creek 
 Shoals, on the Kanawha Eiver 3 
 
 Number of miles of canal 231 
 
 Slack-water navigation between 
 
 Richmond and the mouth of How- 
 ard's Creek 46 
 
 Slack-water between the mouth of 
 
 Haward's Creek and the foot of 
 
 Paint Creek Shoals 115. 39 
 
 Number of miles of slack-water . . . 161. 39 
 
 Improved open river-navigation 
 
 from the foot of Paint Creek 
 
 Shoals to the Ohio River at the 
 
 mouth of the Kanawha 79.05 
 
 Number of miles of open river 79. 05 
 
 471. 44 
 
 The navigation of this line will in fact be by canal, slack-water, and 
 river, as j ust stated ; but in estim atin g its commercial character th e forty- 
 six miles of slack-water navigation being at intervals between Richmond 
 and the mouth of Howard's Creek, should probably be rated as canal- 
 navigation. 
 
 In further considering its commercial character, the three miles of 
 intervening canal, west of the Alleghany, (made to save more than ten 
 miles in distance,) may be rated as slack-water, and the whole slack- 
 water as navigation by river. This view of the commercial character of 
 the line is certainly less favorable than its merits justify, as forty-six miles 
 of slack- water navigation are estimated as canal, and only three miles of 
 canal as slack-water, and the slack- water is estimated as river-navigation,, 
 when, with its lockage equated, it will be less expensive. 
 
 Indeed, in any estimate of the cost of transportation over this line, it 
 would be right to regard this slack- water as lake navigation, less the cost 
 of lake insurance. 
 
 The line thus considered as to its commercial character, if I may so 
 describe it, will be composed of two hundred and seventy-four miles of 
 canal from tide- water at Richmond to Greenbrier River, at the mouth of 
 27 TS 
 
418 
 
 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Howard's Creek, and 197.44 miles of river-navigation from the mouth of 
 Howard's Creek to the Ohio Eiver at the mouth of the Kanawha, to- 
 gether 471.44 miles, the actual length of the line. 
 
 But, as a line of commerce or transportation, this actual length is also 
 changed and increased by its lockage, equated by the rule which may 
 be right. This addition for lockage to the actuaWength of a water-way 
 is ascertained, to the extent of my information, by adding ten minutes' 
 time for passing each canal-lock, and fifteen minutes each ship-lock, or 
 one half mile of distance for the one and three-quarters of a mile for the 
 other ; or, by adding one mile of distance for each lock, or by estimating 
 11.37 feet of lockage as equal to one mile. 
 
 The reports of survey show the lockage on the line : 
 
 Miles. Feet. Locks. 
 
 From tide-water at Eich- 
 
 mond to summit-level . 272 Elevation 1,700 160 (120 by 20 feet.) 
 From summit-level to 
 
 mouth of Ho ward Creek 2 • Descent 30 3 ( " " ) 
 
 274 1,730 163 
 
 These 274 miles, as be- 
 fore explained, are assum- 
 ed to be by canal naviga- 
 tion, and this lockage, 
 (1,730 feet,) by whatever 
 rule equaled, should be 
 added to the canal-navi- 
 gation of the line. 
 From the mouth of How- 
 ard Creek to the foot of 
 
 Paint Creek Shoals . . . 118. 39 Descent 1,096 76 (240 by 40 feet ) 
 These 118.39 miles are ' 
 
 assumed, as before ex- 
 plained, to be by river- 
 navigation, and this lock- 
 age, (1,096 feet,) by what- 
 ever rule equated, should 
 be added in distance to 
 the river-navigation of 
 the line. 
 
 From the foot of Paint 
 Creek Shoals to the 
 Ohio Eiver at the mouth 
 of the Kanawha 79.05 
 miles, fall 62.02 feet, 
 but fall not equated, be- 
 cause navigation will 
 be by unobstructed 
 river improved by open 
 dams 79. 05 
 
 471.44 2,826 239 
 
 There are eighteen guard-locks, but these are not equated because the 
 lockage is embraced in the 2,826 feet. 
 
 If this lockage is equated, by adding ten minutes' time for passing 
 each canal-lock and fifteen minutes for each ship-lock, or half mile for 
 the first and three-quarters of a mile for the last-mentioned time the 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 419 
 
 addition to the length of the lino will be 138£ miles, to be allotted to ita 
 
 component parts as a line of navigation by canal and river, as these 
 
 additional miles belong. 
 
 Canal. River. Total. 
 
 Actual length of central water- 
 line from Eichmond to the 
 Ohio Eiver 274 miles. 197. .44 miles. 471. 44 miles. 
 
 Add \ mile for each of the 163 
 locks (120 by 20 feet) on canal 
 portion of line 81.50 81.50 
 
 Add % of a mile for each of the 
 76 ship-locks (240 by 40) on the 
 river portion of the line 57 57 
 
 355. 50 254. 44 609. 94 
 
 If one mile is added for each lock, then 239 miles should be added to 
 the line ; if one mile for each llj^ feet of lockage, 248 T % 9 a miles. 
 
 From my examination of the rules upon this subject, 1 believe that 
 the right rule for the equation of this lockage is that which allows ten 
 minutes' time for a boat to be passed through a canal-lock and fifteen 
 minutes through a ship-lock. This opiuion is favorable to this line to 
 the extent just shown, but satisfied as I am that in practice this rule 
 will be found to be nearer to the truth than any other, I do not hesitate 
 to say so. I will not detain the committee in connection with this sub- 
 ject except to say that on the James Eiver and Kanawha Canal we find 
 with its primitive machinery for emptying a lock, that seven and a half 
 minutes is time enough to pass a boat through a single lock, and that 
 from long observation we believe that ten minutes, including the time 
 for stopping and getting the boat again under way, would be abundant, 
 especially with improved machinery for working the locks. I observe 
 that the newspapers report that Mr. Hatch, of Buffalo, expressed the 
 opinion to the committee that ten minutes was a sufficient allowance of 
 time. Mr. McAlpine adds one mile of distance for each of the 72 locks 
 of the Erie Canal, but only twelve hours' time for passing them, or ten 
 minutes to each lock. (See address at the Cooper Union, p. 32.) He 
 also mentions the fact of the daily arrival at tide-water of 150 Erie 
 Canal boats, which allows a fraction more than nine minutes for passing 
 each lock. Indeed, on the Erie Canal 198 boats have been passed through 
 a single lock in one day, and Mr. W. E. Hutton, chief engineer of the 
 Chesapeake and Ohio Canal Company, at the date of his connection 
 with Colonel Craighill, in 1870, in the first survey of this line before 
 mentioned, and now the able consulting engineer of that company, says 
 in substance in his report (page 18) that it may be safely assumed that 
 180 boats will be passed through a single lock on this line in one day,* 
 and supposing that the tonnage of the boats which will be used will be 
 about 280 tons, and averaging the trade going east and west at only 180 
 tons to the boat, he shows a trade for this line of 9,720,000 tons per 
 annum, or for a season of 300 days. The passing of 180 boats in twenty- 
 four hours through a single lock gives eight minutes for passing each 
 lock.* My purpose in equating the lockage on this line by the two other 
 rules mentioned, was that the distance which would be added to this, 
 line by its lockage, under all of the rules of which I have any knowledge, 
 might appear to the committee. 
 
 *I submit to the committee a paper on this Bubject prepared by Mr. Walter G. Tur-> 
 pin, a civil hydraulic engineer of ability and experience in his profession. 
 
420 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 The addition of 138.5 miles for lockage increases the 
 length of this line from 471.44 miles, its actual length, 
 to ° 609 miles- 
 Distance from "foot of ship-lock at Eichmond 
 to Newport News, say mouth of James River, 
 (in connection with which the United States 
 engineer in charge reports that a further 
 expenditure of 8250,000 will secure 18 feet 
 of water at high tide at the head of tide- 
 water at Eichmond 104 miles. 
 
 From Newport News to the capes of Virginia, 
 by Hampton Eoads and the Chesapeake 
 
 Bay 22 < 
 
 J 126 
 
 From the Ohio Elver at mouth of Kanawha to capes of 
 
 Virginia , 735. 94 
 
 Erom the mouth of the Kanawha to the mouth of the 
 Ohio 704 
 
 Erom the mouth of the Ohio to the capes of Virginia. . . 1,440 
 
 If the navigation of Hampton Eoads and the Chesapeake Bay is as- 
 sumed to be river-navigation, then the composition of these 1,440 miles 
 as a line of transportation will be — 
 
 Milea. 
 
 By the Ohio Eiver 704.00 
 
 By the river portion of central line 254.44 
 
 By river from Eichmond to capes of Virginia 126.00 
 
 By river 1, 084.44 
 
 By canal 355.56 
 
 Total 1, 440.00 
 
 Mr. Davis. How far to New York ? 
 
 A. Two hundred and ninety-three statute miles from the capes of 
 Virginia to New York, and 1,733 miles from the mouth of the Ohio Eiver 
 (with the distance added for lockage as stated) to New York. I believe 
 that it is twenty-four hours' time from Norfolk to New York. I will 
 presently ask the attention of the committee to a statement of compar- 
 ative distances. In this and in all like statements in connection with 
 this line, I make New York City the ultimate eastern market in this 
 country, as it is and must continue to be the financial and commercial 
 leart of the- country ; and Liverpool in Europe. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. Do you mean Capes Charles and Henry when you* 
 speak of the capes of Virginia ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. In connection with the probable rates of transportation 
 over this line of 1,440 miles, I venture the conjecture that on the 
 canal portion, reduced to a level by equating its lockage as stated, the 
 carriers' charges (without tolls) will be less than four mills per ton per 
 mile. Mr. W. E. Hutton, in his report of the first survey, (page 19,) says 
 that " the officers of the Erie Canal have found the cost of transporta- 
 tion on same to vary from 2.16 to 2.25 mills per ton per mile up to 1866, 
 and in 1868 to have reached 4.06 mills. I make the cost on the present 
 •work reduced to a level, 2.03 mills." The average carriers' profits on all 
 classes of freight on the New York canals is about one mill per ton per 
 mile. I submit that it would be reasonable to assume that the carriers' 
 charges on the canal portion of this line will not exceed three mills, be- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 421 
 
 cause of the larger capacity of the canal, the four months' longer season 
 ©f its navigation, the advantages of return cargoes of coal, iron, lumber, 
 and salt, the salutary influence of competition in reducing rates, and 
 because it is altogether probable that steam will be the motor on this 
 canal. 
 
 On the river portion of the line, I also venture the conjecture that 
 carriers' charges will be less than 2J mills per ton per mile, because 
 even in the present condition of the navigation of the Ohio and Kana- 
 wha Eivers, heavy freights have been carried for about 1.8 mills per ton 
 per mile. (Button's Eeport, p. 22.) Coal has been carried in large 
 quantities from Pittsburgh to New Orleans at five-eighths mill per ton 
 per mile, and the charges of transportation on the Mississippi Eiver 
 from Saint Louis to New Orleans I believe now approximate two mills, 
 with a tendency to lower charges. In view of the immense amount of 
 freights which will pour over this line, and the resulting better organ- 
 ization for its transportation, (Eeport, p. ,) I believe the opinion to be 
 altogether reasonable that the rates of this river transportation will be 
 less than two mills per ton per mile, exclusive of tolls on the 254.44 
 miles of river transportation included in the central water-line. Mr. 
 McAlpine puts cost of river transportation at two mills. (Address, p. 
 32.) 
 
 A toll of sixty cents per ton on 7,000,000 of tons of through 
 freight over this line of 471 miles (at the rate of 1.27 mills per ton per 
 mile) will be $4,200,000. Deduct from this $700,000, one-sixth of these 
 gross earnings, or $1,486.19 per mile for expenses and repairs, and the 
 remaining $3,500,000 will pay five per cent., or $55,000,000, and provide 
 one per cent, for a sinking-fund and leave a balance of $200,000. Two 
 mills per ton per mile toll on this freight will yield $6,594,000, and de- 
 ducting $1,099,000, one-sixth of this sum, or $2,333.33 per mile for ex- 
 penses and repairs, $5,495,000 will remain for the quicker payment of 
 the debt created for completing the line. Less than one-third of one 
 mill per ton per mile on these 7,000,000 tons will yield $942,000, or 
 $2,000 per mile for annual expenses and repairs. As to the 7,000,000 
 tons of through freight which is chiefly the basis of the statement just 
 made, a glance for the present at the country tributary to this line, with 
 the knowledge of its actual productions and its capacity for increased 
 production, will, I think, relieve this estimate of tonnage of any just 
 charge of extravagance. In view of the extent and character of this 
 tributary country and of the tonnage-producing character of the section 
 of Virginia and of West Virginia through which this line passes, it ap- 
 pears more probable that within a few years after its completion its 
 tonnage will exceed rather than fall short of this estimate. But if this 
 tonnage should be less, the line, in a financial view, should be consid- 
 ered, as it is in fact, one with the great system of river-navigation of 
 the valley of the Mississippi, all free from tolls, except this 471 miles', 
 composed of both river and canal navigation, and all affording such 
 cheap transportation that tonnage can afford to pay, fur these few miles, 
 any rate of which in any probable, or I may almost say any possible, 
 contingency will be necessary to provide any amount of money which 
 will be required. 
 
 In the estimate of annual expenses and repairs I am guided by the 
 fact that of the gross earnings of the Erie Canal from 1817 to 1863, it 
 appears " that but a little more than one-sixth were required to meet 
 expenses and repairs, while the balance, or about five-sixths, were net 
 gain. And this included not only the period after the enlargement, but 
 before, and when the canal was in an unfinished condition, and the cost 
 of repairs much greater and the receipts less." (Memo. Com. Con., p. 36.) 
 
422 TRANSPORTATION TO THE. SEABOARD. 
 
 I cannot now refer the committee to the authority for the statement, 
 hut my recollection is that the annual expenses and repairs of the Erie 
 Canal, since its enlargement, have not exceeded $600 the mile. 
 
 The annual average cost of expenses and repairs (other than the 
 small expense for general administration) per mile per annum for eight- 
 een years, from 1851 to 1868, of the James Eiver and Kanawha Canal, 
 ■was, for the Piedmont district, from Eichmondto Lynchburgh, $690, and 
 for the mountain district, from Lynchburgh to Buchanan, $807 the mile. 
 This canal may be said to enter the mountain district of the State at 
 Lynchburgh, and twenty-four miles beyond it arrives at the base of the 
 Blue Eidge Mountain, and passes in a distance of four and a half miles 
 through the back-bone of the Blue Eidge to Buchannan. I ask the at- 
 tention of the committee in this connection to the letter of Edward 
 Lorraine, chief engineer, &c, to E. W. Hughes, chairman of the sub-com- 
 mittee of the National Board of Trade. (P. 100, Ex. Doc. 110, Forty- 
 first Congress, third session.) This letter is especially important in 
 its exhibition of facts connected with that portion of the canal in the 
 mountain district of Virginia. Mr. Lorraine, in the conclusion of his 
 letter, says, " It is my opinion that the work on the Greenbrier and New 
 Eivers, if properly executed, will be the most permanent, and will cost 
 less per mile to repair, than any other part of the line except the Ka- 
 nawha Eiver." 
 
 The flood of 1870 was certainly the greatest for a century before, and 
 probably the greatest since the settlement of the country, and although 
 the canal in almost its entire length was exposed to its fury, yet the 
 damage sustained was chiefly to its earth-works, and very little to its 
 dams and locks. 
 
 Under the guidance of these views as to the charges of transportation 
 I have prepared tables showing these charges over this line lengthened 
 by the equation of its lockage under all of the rules which I have men- 
 tioned, also from points on the Mississippi, Missouri, and Ohio Eivers,. 
 to the capes of Yirginia, to New York, and Liverpool ; but I will not 
 consume the time of the committee by reading these papers. 
 
 Assuming the commercial length of this line as that shown by equa- 
 ting its lockage by the rule adopted, as explained, it will be the shortest 
 water-way, whether compared with any other in existence or projected, 
 from the Mississippi Eiver to New York City, and also the shortest from 
 the Mississippi Eiver through a sea-port of our own country to Liver- 
 pool. The only exception may be the Ohio Canal, from Cincinnati to- 
 Toledo. I am not informed as to its lockage, which, for the purpose of 
 comparison, must be equated by the same rule as the central line. My 
 information of the Chesapeake and Ohio Canal is obtained from the 
 "very full report of James M. Coale, esq., president of that company, to 
 the stockholders, in 1851. As to the character of the locks on the line 
 I was left to conjecture, and assumed that ninety-eight of these were 
 ship-locks, as distinguished from canal-locks. I have prepared a state- 
 ment showing the distance by these water-ways from and to the points 
 indicated, which I will read to the committee. If inaccurate in any 
 particular it can then be corrected. 
 
 TO NEW YORK CITY. 
 
 Miles. 
 
 By Fox Eiver and Wisconsin Canal 1, 749' 
 
 By Illinois and Michigan Canal, (to this is to be added its lock- 
 age) l, 981 
 
 From New Orleans 1,980 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 423 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. By what route? 
 
 A. By the Gulf. From New Orleans to the Gulf, 130 miles, and 1,850 
 miles from the mouth of the Mississippi to New York. 
 
 Miles. 
 
 By Chesapeake and Ohio Canal 2, 007 
 
 By Portsmouth and Cleveland Canal 1, 745 
 
 By Miami Canal, from Cincinnati to Toledo, and its lockage to be 
 
 added 1, 653 
 
 By Atlantic and Great Western Canal, and its lockage to be 
 
 added 2, 149 
 
 By central water-line 1, 733 
 
 TO LIVERPOOL. 
 
 By Fox and Wisconsin 4, 899 
 
 By Illinois and Michigan, (add lockage) 5, 131 
 
 From New Orleans , 4, 880 
 
 By Chesapeake and Ohio 4, 984 
 
 By Portsmouth and Cleveland 4, 895 
 
 By Miami, Cincinnati and Toledo, (add lockage) 4, 803 
 
 By Atlantic and Great Western, (to which add lockage on canal 
 
 and distance from Savannah or Brunswick to Liverpool) 2, 149 
 
 By central line 4, 710 
 
 I have attempted to ascertain the latitude of various points on the 
 
 . line from the mouth of the Ohio Eiver to the capes of Virginia. I am 
 
 not certain as to the accuracy of my efforts, which were made in a rough 
 
 way, without instruments, but with great care, by those who assisted 
 
 me. 
 
 Latitude. 
 
 The mouth of the Ohio Eiver 37.00 
 
 Louisville ' 38.15 
 
 Cincinnati 39.07 
 
 Mouth of Kanawha Eiver 38.53 
 
 Charleston, West Virginia 38.23 
 
 White Sulphur Springs, (summit-level) 37. 46 
 
 Covington, eastern base of Alleghany Mountains 37. 44 
 
 Lynchburgh 37. 24 
 
 Eichmond 37. 36 
 
 Capes of Virginia 36. 53 
 
 The mouth of the Ohio Eiver and the capes of Virginia are within 
 seven minutes, or eight miles, of b.eing in the same degree of latitude. 
 The capes of Virginia are within twenty-six miles of the central point 
 of the eastern coast of the United States, and the mouth of the Ohio 
 Eiver within one hundred aud thirty-eight miles of the central point of 
 the valley of the Mississippi, on a north and south line from the mouth 
 of the Mississippi Eiver to the northern border of Minnesota. This 
 central line is not only from the center of the valley of the Mississippi 
 to the center of the Atlantic sea-board, but central to those inland seas 
 bordering on the Atlantic coast of the United States, and so connected by 
 artificial water-ways as to provide an inland navigation of great extent, 
 without limit in capacity, and almost as safe in peace and war as a har- 
 bor with defenses. This internal navigation extends north from Hamp- 
 ton Eoads by the Chesapeake Bay, and through the Chesapeake and Dela- 
 ware Canal, to Delaware Bay, and to New York Bay through the Dela- 
 ware and Earitan Canal, by the great cities of Baltimore and Philadel- 
 phia, to New York ; and south from Hampton Itoads through the 
 Chesapeake and Albemarle Canal to Albemarle and Pamlico Sounds, and 
 
424 TRANSPORTATION T3 THE SEABOARD. 
 
 with a few miles of ocean navigation, as explained to the committee by 
 the president of the Chesapeake and Albemarle Canal, again by inland 
 waters to Florida. The rivers which flow into these waters enable com- 
 merce to penetrate the interior of the country. The connection of 
 Hampton Eoads with Albemarle and Pamlico Sounds, and these with 
 each other, gives in these sounds, and through the nversflowing into 
 them", an inland navigation of 1,800 miles, as explained this evening by 
 Mr. Parks. 
 
 When we look west we see at a glance the great extent ot country 
 which will be benefited by the completion of this line. In point of 
 distance it is nearer by this line to New York from a point on the Mis- 
 sissippi River, more than 600 miles below the mouth of the Ohio Eiver. 
 The Missouri Eiver in its entire length, and the country west of it, with 
 a large portion of the valley east to the Mississippi Eiver, is tributary 
 to it, because nearer to New York by the capes of Virginia than by any 
 other water-line. The country bordering the Ohio Eiver, north and 
 south of it for almost its entire length, is in like condition as to distance. 
 It is nearer to New York by this line from a point on the Ohio Eiver, 
 130 miles above the mouth of the Kanawha Eiver, than by the Chesa- 
 peake and Ohio Canal, when completed. 
 
 In connection with the extent of country bordering the Mississippi 
 Eiver above the mouth of the Ohio Eiver, directly interested in the 
 completion of this line, and of the direct and indirect interest of the 
 entire valley of the Mississippi, I will read an extract from the memo- 
 rials of the Louisville and Cincinnati Commercial Conventions to Con- ■ 
 gress, urging this completion. This memorial was prepared by Thomas 
 M. Monroe, esq., of Dubuque, the chairman of the committee, a gentle- 
 man of ability and character, and distinguished for laborious investiga- 
 tion and accuracy of statement in connection with the subject of trans- 
 portation between the valley of the Mississippi and sea board, to which 
 he has given a great deal of attention. 
 
 It will be seen that while water-lines are all open, the shortest, cheapest, and best route 
 from the Upper Mississippi, extending down the river to a point between Dubuque and 
 Davenport, will be by the Wisconsin and Fox River route ; from thence down the in- 
 clination is in favor of the central route or the Gulf route, with a margin of about 100 
 miles in width from north to south, extending across the States of Ohio, Indiana, Illi- 
 nois, and Iowa, nearly 1,000 miles in length from east to west, of a highly productive 
 and well cultivated country, in a condition to be competed for upon nearly equal terms 
 as to the charges of transportation between the northern route on the one hand* and 
 the central route on the other, the competition for which ivill compel the lowest paying rate 
 of charges and increased facilities on each route, in order to meet the competition of the 
 other. 
 
 Even from the mouth of the Wisconsin River, the point most favorable for trans- 
 portation over the Wisconsin and Fox Rivers and lake route, the difference in favor 
 of that route over the central one does not exceed fine cents per hundred pounds, and 
 as the Mississippi River is always open from Saint Paul down, when the route by the 
 lakes and Erie Canal can be used, any attempt to take advantage of the pressure to 
 get through the lakes and Erie Canal, by raising the charges more than five cents on 
 the hundred pounds, or three cents on a bushel of wheat, will always be checked by 
 the available competition of the central route ; so that one of the first effects of the 
 construction of the central line will, by its competition, be to compel the facilities to be 
 increased and the charges to be reduced on the northern route. 
 
 It was the apprehension of the competition of the route through Virginia that gave 
 the North and West the benefit of the Erie Canal. A like well-founded apprehension 
 •will compel an anticipation of its rivalry by an enlargement of that work, and a re- 
 duction of charges to the lowest paying rates will follow ; so that all that portion of 
 the West and Northwest which will continue to use the northern line will be as much 
 benefited by the central one as the regiou more directly tributary to it. 
 
 There is another advantage of the central route to the northern portion of the Mis- 
 sissippi Valley not to be overlooked. For at least ten weeks of each year, when the 
 Wisconsin and Erie Canals will be practically closed to the West, the Mississippi River, 
 as far north as-either canal, is open, and connection with the central line free. Even 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 425 
 
 from Saint Paul there is open water fornavigation down the river for a number of weeks 
 when the northern canals will be closed. 
 
 So, too, when the Dorthern route is closed, and no longer a competitor of the central 
 one, any attempt on the part of the latter to extort higher rates, either of tolls or for 
 transportation, will he checked by the competition of the Gulf route, it so happening 
 that the climatic objection to the Gulf route has least weight during the period when 
 the northern route is no longer available. So that the competition of each and every 
 one of these improvements is necessary to enable the full henefit of the others to be 
 realized, and thus fully to secure the primary and grand object, " cheap transportation." 
 
 Over the southern or Gulf route, the central route has the advantage in reaching a 
 port convenient and of easy, access to the ocean for the largest vessels, heing always 
 free from obstructions of every kind ; it has also the advantage in distance, somewhat 
 in time, and in avoiding heavy rates of insurance, port charges, and towage, and last and 
 greatest, in passing through a clima.te more friendly to the transportation of northern 
 products during the warm months, and especially of grain in bulk. Over both it has 
 the advautage of constituting a part of a line extending across from east to west 
 nearly two thousand miles, from Kansas City or Leavenworth to the Atlantic, as direct 
 as from the head of navigation on the Mississippi to the Gulf, with available connec- 
 tions north and south with more than 10,000 miles of navigable water. It is wholly 
 within the limits of our own country, and therefore free from interruptions in case of 
 war. For the larger portion of the Mississippi Valley it will, at all times, be the short- 
 est, quickest, cheapest, and best route of transportation. (Pages 32 and 33, Memo. 
 Com. Convention.) 
 
 By Mr. CONKXING : 
 
 Q. From when to when would ice close this route ? 
 
 A. I cannot say from a day to a day. 
 
 Q. From a range of days to a range of days, then? . 
 
 A. It is the official duty of the superintendent of the James River 
 and Kanawha Canal to report annually the time during the year of sus- 
 pension of its navigation by ice. Edward Lorraine was the chief engi- 
 neer of the canal, and also its superintendent at the time of his death, 
 and had been for ma.ny years before. In answer to many inquiries 
 from the West, Mr. Lorraine prepared a report of the leading facts re- 
 lating to this canal. This report is found on page 51 of a pamphlet en- 
 titled " The Central Water-Line from the Ohio River to the Virginia 
 Capes," and I believe is in the hands of the members of the committee. 
 In this report Mr. Lorraine says: 
 
 By examining the reports of the James River and Kanawha Company it will be seen 
 that from 1840 to 1848 there was no suspension of navigation by ice reported, except 
 twelve days in 1845. If there were any others they must have been so slight as not to 
 have attracted attention, or to have been deemed unworthy of comment. From 1848 to 
 the present time, all suspensions of navigation by ice have been reported by the super- 
 intendents, and have been as follows: 
 Years. Days of suspension. 
 
 1848-'49 8 days. 
 
 J849-'50 None. 
 
 1850-'51 None. 
 
 1851-'52 • 32 days. 
 
 1852-'53 None. 
 
 1853-'54 None. 
 
 l«54-'55 ' - 23 days. 
 
 1855-'oo 55 days. 
 
 1856-'57 56 days. 
 
 1857-'58 - None. 
 
 1858-'59 - None. 
 
 1859-'(i0 !6 days. 
 
 1860-'61 None. 
 
 1861-'62 None. 
 
 1862- '63 ---- None. 
 
 1863-'64 21 days. 
 
 lt)64-'65 None. 
 
 1865-'66 8 days. 
 
 1866- '67 - 42 days. 
 
 1867-'68 41 days. 
 
 We find, then, that in a period of twenty years the total number of days in which the 
 navigation was suspended by ice amounts to 302, an average of 15 days for each year. As 
 these reports apply to the canal as high up as Buchanan, west of the Blue Ridge, it 
 
426 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 ■will be reasonable to infer that when the canal reaches its highest elevation in the Al- 
 leghanies, it will not be closed by ice on an average moire than thirty days in the year, 
 while the Erie Canal is closed by ice about five months in the year, making a difference 
 of one-third of the year in favor of the Virginia water-line, and that at the very sea- 
 son of the year when the agricultural products of the West are seeking an eastern 
 market. 
 
 In this statement the number of days of suspension during the year 
 are aggregated. 
 
 I regret that I cannot give the precise information of the date of each 
 day of suspension in each month and year. Our reports are not made 
 in this form, because these suspensions by ice are not continuous, but 
 generally for short periods and at intervals. From my observation 
 during my connection with the canal since 1867, and from information 
 derived from intelligent parties with long experience in navigation on 
 the canal, I believe that these suspensions would have been greatly 
 reduced in time and number by the use of ice-boats. Indeed it is not 
 improbable that ice-boats and a full traffic would have kept open the 
 navigation during the entire year. 
 
 Before the division of Virginia the entire line from Richmond to the 
 Ohio River was under the control of the James River and Kanawha 
 Company, but from Richmond to Buchanan and the Kanawha River 
 were the only portions actually used for navigation. The late Mr. Fisk, 
 chief engineer of the State of Virginia, in charge of the Covington and 
 Ohio Railroad, the portion now of the Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad 
 between Covington, Virginia, and the Ohio River, was employed by the 
 James River and Kanawha Company to survey the Kanawha River 
 with reference to its improvement, and reported the average suspension 
 of the navigation of the Kanawha River by ice as fifteen days. This 
 was confirmed by Mr. Lorraine in his report of the survey of the same 
 river, and is true, doubtless within the knowledge of the many parties 
 now using that river as a channel of transportation. The only part of 
 this line as to which there is not this conclusive evidence, derived from 
 its actual navigation, is from Buchanan to the navigable waters of the 
 Kanawha River. This includes the summit-level. 
 
 The committee appointed by the National Board of Trade " to fully 
 examine " and report to the board with reference to this line, say in their 
 report, p. 94 : 
 
 The summit section beiug a tunnel will never freeze. The unvarying temperature 
 of the tunnel through the Hoosac Mountain, in the high latitude of Massachusetts, is 
 52 degrees the year round. The temperature of the proposed tunnel through the 
 Alleghany Mountains for the summit-level will probably not be lower than that of the 
 Hoosac tunnel. The elevation of the former tunnel is only 1,700 feet above the level of 
 the sea, and it is more than three degees of latitude to the south of the Hoosac. 
 
 Buchanan, the present terminus of the canal, is 812 feet above tide, 
 and the difference between the opening of canal navigation at this point 
 and through the mountain section, and from Lynchburg to Richmond is 
 about one week. The balance of this incomplete part of the line is 
 chiefly slack-water navigation, and the larger portion of this on New 
 River, which has its source south of Virginia, in the State of North 
 Carolina. " Ice forms less in deep water. In ten years, from 1845 to 
 1855, inclusive, the greatest number of days of suspension of navigation 
 on the slack-water of the Monongahela River was 33 days, and in 
 1868 and 1869, none. The average number of days of stoppage by ice 
 for the whole period was 15 J days." (Turpin's report, p. — .) If true of 
 the Monongahela slack-water, how much more will this be true of the 
 New River, rising as it does in North Carolina, and entering the Ohio 
 river 263 miles by river below the mouth of the Monongahela. The 
 estimate of the time of suspension of navigation by ice is 15 days 
 for the eastern and western portions of the line, and 30 days for the 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 4z( 
 
 middle or mountainous. I submit that the facts just stated, including 
 those ascertained from many years of actual experience in the naviga- 
 gation of a portion of this line, which has passed twenty miles beyond 
 the Blue Eidge Mountains, and reached an elevation of 812 feet above 
 tide, considered in' connection with the mechanical aid to a continuous 
 open navigation to be derived from the use of ice-boats, and from the 
 passing of boats necessary for the transportation of a great amount of 
 tonnage, justifies this estimate. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Have you given any attention to the value of the Ohio Eiver 
 betyveeu its mouth and the Kanawha Eiver for commercial purposes? 
 
 A. I have given some attention to the reports of the distinguished 
 engineers of the United States who from time to time have made re- 
 ports on the improvement of the Ohio Eiver. These reports seem to ex- 
 exhaust information about the river both above and below the mouth of 
 the Kanawha, but I am not prepared even to repeat this information in 
 its detail with sufficient confidence as to accuracy. The navigation of 
 the Ohio is better below the mouth of the Kanawha than above, because 
 there is more water and less ice and less fall to the mile, and I believe fewer 
 shoals. There is this special interest in its improvement below the mouth 
 of the Kanawha, that at this point (Point Pleasant) the connection of the 
 Ohio Eiver with the sea by the central water line begins. The river 
 below connects this line with the great river system of the valley of the 
 Mississippi, and the improvement of this portion of the river is neces- 
 sary to make the line of satisfactory benefit to the country. But the 
 line is also to give an additional mouth to the whole river, which ex- 
 tends not only 264 miles above the month of the Kanawha to the 
 great manufacturing city of Pittsburgh, (967 miles from the mouth of 
 the Ohio,) but beyond, with navigable water for more than 200 miles in 
 its true channel, the Alleghany Eiver, and, through its own channel, 
 and those of its tributaries, " directly influences the industries of four- 
 teen of the States, but directly circulates the commodities of every State- 
 in the Union." (P. 9, rept. 76, Forty-second Cong., third sess.) 
 
 "With the permission of the committee, I will read the concluding por- 
 tion of the report of Mr. Lorraine to Colonel Craighill, of the examina- 
 tion and survey of the Kanawha Eiver, returned in December, 1872, 
 with the report of that officer upon this subject to the Chief of Engineers 
 of the United States. I wish to say in advance that the known pro- 
 fessional courtesy of Mr. Lorraine forbids any inference that his refer- 
 ence to the Ohio Eiver in this extract from his report was designed 
 other than to ask consideration of his suggested mode of improvement 
 for the Kanawha Eiver as applicable to the Ohio, and more especially 
 to give information of the value of the Meadow Eiver reservoir in fur- 
 nishing any needed supply of water to both streams. 
 
 In comparing the merits of the above plans for the improvement of the Kanawha 
 River, due consideration should be given to the probable future improvement of the 
 Ohio, as the navigation of the tributary should be made to conform as far as practica- 
 ble to that of the main stream. The improvement of the Ohio would not be long de- 
 layed if there was any unanimity of opinion as to the proper plan for effecting it. If 
 the open-dam improvement should be tried on the Kanawha, and should prove to be a 
 success, it would doubtless decide the character of the Ohio improvement, and result 
 in its immediate adaptation to that stream. 
 
 It will be a matter of interest to see what effect the proposed reservoirs on the trib- 
 utaries of the Kanawha would have on the Ohio, if that river were improved by open, 
 dams. 
 
 Cubic feet. 
 
 Allowing the channels in the dams ip be 200 feet wide and &J- deep, with 
 6 inches fall from pool to poo^the discharge through them would be 
 4,419 cubic feet per second, or per day 381,801,600" 
 
428 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Adding to that the allowance for wastage over the dams double what was 
 
 allowed on the Kanawha $3o, 942, 400 . 
 
 "We have the total supply necessary for the Ohio 417, 744, 000 
 
 With two feet depth of water on Wheeling bar, the discharge of the Ohio 
 
 at Wheeling iiftwenty-four hours, by Mr. Ellet's measurement was.... 228, 000,000 
 Add to this amount the low- water discharge of the Kanawha 116, 640, 000 
 
 And we have for the low-water discharge of the Ohio at Point Pleasant . . 344, 640, 000 
 
 Which deduct from 417,744,000, will leave 73,104,000 cubic feet as the amount per 
 day necessary to be supplied during the period of low water. But we have seen that 
 the reservoir on Meadow River will supply to the Kanawha 10,722,000,000 cubic feet 
 per annum. It will then supply the deficiency on the Ohio for 146 days. 
 
 It appears then, that this one reservoir on Meadow River will be more than sufficient 
 to supply the deficiency on the Ohio River during the whole period of low water, pro- 
 vided the stream can be so improved as to throw nearly all the water into channels of 
 the width and depth described above, and having not more than six inches fall from 
 pool to pool. The fall in the Ohio below Point Pleasant being much less than the fall 
 in the Kanawha, the dams on the Ohio could be so arranged as to give not more than 
 three inches fall from pool to pool. 
 
 That such an improvement is practicable, that it could he made at a very moderate 
 cost, and when made that it would answer all the purposes for which it was intended, 
 can hardly be doubted by any one who will give the subject serious consideration. 
 
 From the report of Col. W. Milnor Roberts, United States civil engineer, on the sur- 
 vey of the Ohio in 1870, 1 ascertain that between the mouth of the Kanawha River 
 and the mouth of the Ohio there are 237 miles of shoals and ripples. 
 
 The estimated cost of the improvement of the Kanawha River by open dams is 
 4488,833, or $6,188 per mile. Allowing the cost of improving the Ohio to be double that 
 of improving the Kanawha, or say $12,500 per mile, and that 250 miles would require 
 improving, the total cost of preparing the river would be $3,125,000, to which add the 
 cost of the Meadow River reservoir, $533,200, and we have $3,658,200 for the total cost 
 of the improvement of the Ohio River below Point Pleasant, so as to give six feet 
 navigation all the year round. 
 
 It is not my province to report on the improvement of the Ohio River, but the 
 Kanawha and the Ohio are so intimately connected that the improvement of the for- 
 mer without that of the latter would be almost useless, and as any plan that would 
 succeed on the one would be applicable to the other, I have deemed it not inappro- 
 priate to throw out the above suggestions in regard to the Ohio for the thoughtful con- 
 sideration of those who may be intrusted with the recommendation of a plan, for the 
 improvement of that river. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS.: 
 
 Q. What is the size of your present canal-locks, and the contemplated 
 size? 
 
 A. The locks are 100 feet long between the gates, and 15 feet wide in 
 the chamber. The locks on the canal, as proposed, from Eichmond to 
 Howard's Creek, (274 miles,) will be 120 feet long between the gates, 
 and 20 feet wide in the chamber. Prom the mouth of Howard's Creek 
 to the foot of Paint Creek Shoals, (118.39 miles,) where the open river 
 navigation will begin, the proposed locks wili be 240 feet long, and 40 
 feet wide. Mr. Lorraine states in one of his reports that the supply of 
 water at the summit-level will be abundant for vessels of 500 tons. It 
 would be greatly to the interest of the commerce of the country, in fur- 
 ther reducing the cost of transportation, if the locks from Eichmond to 
 the mouth of Howard's Creek were of the large size of those proposed 
 ■west of that point. 
 
 Q. My question was as to what the estimates were made for. 
 
 A. Por locks 120 by 20 feet from Eichmond to the mouth of How- 
 ard's Creek, and beyond 240 by 40 feet. If the locks were all of the 
 large size mentioned, then steamboats and tugs towing barges of the di- 
 mensions just described by Mr. Parks could traverse the whole line to 
 the capes of Virginia, and beyond, certainly by the bays and sounds on 
 the sea-board, and other inland waters, which have been mentioned. 
 There is no official estimate of the increasecT cost of substituting these 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 429 
 
 large locks for those proposed between Eichmond and the mouth of 
 Howard's Greek, but an unofficial estimate, if I may say so, of $8,000,000. 
 
 Q. Now as to cost of improving the Ohio, I understand that there has 
 been an estimate of it. Can you give any data, dividing that estimate 
 between the part above and below the mouth of the Kanawha? 
 
 A. My impression is that the estimate of Mr. Eoberts for the improve- 
 ment of the Ohio by locks and dams above the mouth of the Kanawha 
 was about $10,000,000, but I do not recollect his estimate for the im- 
 provement below the point. 
 
 Q. What is now the depth of water in your canal, and what contem- 
 plated ? 
 
 A. The original depth was 5 feet, and now from 4 to 5 feet. 
 
 Q. What will it be with the improvement ? 
 
 A. The proposed depth of the canal is 7 feet, and of the slack- 
 water west of the summit-level, and in the Kanawha Eiver, not less than 
 6 feet. 
 
 Q. Tou have the data, I believe, as to the navigable waters with which 
 this canal will be connected, and also of the products of that immediate 
 region which will be drained by it ? 
 
 A. Do you mean of the whole region of country which will be tributary 
 to it? 
 
 Q. I mean what are the number of miles of navigable waters of the 
 West through which this canal would draw freight t 
 
 A. This central outlet to the sea-board would be in connection with all 
 of the connected navigable waters of the valley of the Mississippi ; even 
 with the lakes, through the Fox Eiver and Wisconsin, the Illinois, and 
 Michigan, and Ohio canals. There are nearly 17,000 miles of steam- 
 boat navigation in the Mississippi Valley. The great lakes have a 
 shore line of 3,620 miles on the American side. Much the larger 
 portion of this steamboat navigation is now and will be more 
 and more interested, as the country is occupied, in u&ing this 
 line, because of the coal, iron, and salt which so abound in the 
 country through which it passes, and which will be so largely devel- 
 oped by it. Through these minerals, furnishing return freights, the ton- 
 nage eastward will be increased beyond the number of miles of this 
 steamboat navigation, which will be nearer to New York and Liverpool 
 by this route than by any other. Probably more than one-third of this 
 navigation is thus nearer to those cities when the existing and proposed 
 water-routes are all open. This estimate does not include the slack- 
 water and canal navigation for boats other than steamboats, which 
 would be nearer by this line, or the streams which may be made naviga- 
 ble, or the miles of this steamboat navigation which would seek this 
 route when the water-lines north of it are closed by ice. But the com- 
 petition of trade and navigation resulting from the completion of this 
 route — and more especially if one of a system of such routes to the 
 ocean — in its influence in reducing charges of transportation, practically 
 connects it, not only with all of this steamboat navigation, and with the 
 lakes, and the whole system of navigable waters of the valley of the 
 Mississippi, but also through the influence of this competition with the 
 great lines of railroad from that valley to the sea-board. These water- 
 routes — meaning by these the improved rivers of the West, and their 
 extension at proper points eastward to the ocean — will not only provide 
 adequate transportation for the products of the distant West, but with- 
 out aggression or injury (I might say to their great benefit) practically 
 deprive the great railroad corporations of the power of taxation and 
 control, in a measure, over the value of the products of the country 
 through rates of transportation, and secure to the country the needed 
 
430 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 transportation of rail and water both, controlled in their rates of trans- 
 portation by a healthful competition, and both important to the interest 
 of every citizen and every interest of the country. 
 
 Q. Do you know what portion of the population of the whole country, 
 in inhabitants and wealth, these navigable w,aters nearer by this route 
 will drain? 
 
 A. I have not prepared precisely that statement, but jvill attempt to 
 do so, if desired. The rivers are portions of the Ohio, Mississippi, and 
 Missouri, as I have mentioned, and a portion of their branches. The 
 boundaries of the tributary country bordering these navigable waters 
 cannot be described in their very line, but with sufficient accuracy, and 
 then its population and wealth might, I suppose, be ascertained. Mr. 
 McAlpine said twenty years ago " that the dividing line of trade between 
 the Virginia and New York canals, when the former and the enlarge- 
 ment of the Erie Canal are completed, will be 110 miles north of Ports- 
 mouth and Cincinnati." 
 
 In th& annual statement of the trade and commerce of Buffalo for the 
 year 1865, reported for the Buffalo Board of Trade by Mr. E. H'. Walker, 
 that gentleman says : 
 
 Were this canal as large as the present Erie Canal, notwithstanding its numerous 
 locks, and its nearly 1,900 feet of lockage lift, about the same as that of the Genesee 
 Valley Canal, it would, from its being open nearly all the year, be a strong competitor 
 for the trade of the Western States. The Ohio River is as free as the lakes, with tha 
 distance from the Mississippi to Point Pleasant about the same as from the Mississipp- 
 to Buifalo. The States west of the Mississippi, including Missouri and Iowa, and those 
 States immediately west of these States on the Missouri, as well as the southern portions 
 of Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, and Kentucky, would be more immediately tributary to 
 the James River and Kanawha Canal than to the Erie, unless ship-canals Bhould he 
 constructed through Ohio and Indiana. 
 
 The Hon. Israel D. Andrews, in his report on colonial trade, says of 
 this canal : 
 
 Could this canal be carried into the Ohio Valley with a sufficient supply of water 
 there can be no doubt it would become a route of au immense commerce. It would 
 strike the Ohio at a very favorable point for through business. It would have this great 
 advantage over the more northern works of a similar kind, that it would be navigable 
 during the winter as well as the summer. The route after crossing the Alleghany 
 Mountains is vastly rich in coal and iron, as well as in a very productive soil. Nothing 
 seems to be wanting to the triumphant success of the work bat a continuous water- 
 line to the Ohio. 
 
 These gentlemen would no doubt have conceded larger boundaries to 
 this central water-line, with its lockage lift reduced nearly 200 feet and 
 a canal enlarged beyond the present capacity of the Erie Canal. 
 
 The " equidistant line " of Com modore Maury, found in one of the maps 
 of his able work, "Physical Survey of Virginia — Her Geographical Posi- 
 tion — Its Commercial Advantages and National Importance," indicates 
 the country geographically nearer to New York and to Norfolk, and shows 
 a part of the Territories of Wyoming and Dakota and the country a short 
 distance below La Crosse and Milwaukee and Cleveland as south of that 
 line, and in actual distance as nearer to Norfolk. The extract which I 
 read to the committee from the memorial of the Louisville and Cincin- 
 nati commercial conventions probably presents this subject in its more 
 practical light. Thoughlcannot now give inflgures the information asked, 
 I will venture to say that the country which will be conceded as tribu- 
 tary to this work, in the commercial character of its sea-board, in its 
 climate, in the variety, abundance, and quality of its minerals, especially 
 of coal and iron, the basis of the greatest national wealth and power, 
 and in its capacity for production of all necessary to the existence and 
 comfort of man, has not its superior ou the earth within boundaries of 
 equal extent. 
 
 As shedding some light on the subject of inquiry, I will give the sub- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 431 
 
 stance of a written statement of a gentleman who obtained the facts 
 which it contains, or the basis of these facts, from the report of the Com- 
 missioner of Agriculture. In 1871 the States of West Virginia, Ten- 
 nessee, Kentucky, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Arkansas, Wiscon- 
 sin, Michigan, Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska, and the Territories on the Mis- 
 souri Eiver, raised 35,490,757 tons of agricultural products. 
 
 This statement does not include live-stock, salt pork, and beef, or the 
 products of manufacture, or of the forest, or mines. After deducting 
 the usual allowance for consumption, he assigns- one-third of the remain- 
 der, or 7,000,000 tons, to the central water-line, which he regards as its 
 smallest probable share. To this is to be added the tonnage produced 
 on the line, which, from twenty iron furnaces alone in the transporta- 
 tion of raw material and product, would probably be equal to one mil- 
 lion of tons annually. Two million tons of coal were shipped from Pitts- 
 burgh down the Ohio Eiver in 1869. (Roberts' Beport on Ohio Eiver, 
 Appendix A, p. 188.) In the report on the Newport and Cincinnati 
 bridge, it is stated " that the commerce on this river in coal, iron, and 
 salt, and other bulky articles, has yearly increased at an average rate 
 of 20 per cent." 
 
 The Kanawha coal-fields would no doubt in a short time after the 
 completion of this line furnish not only the 2,000,000 tons, but an ever- 
 increasing number of tons for shipment east and west. The quality of 
 the bituminous coals of this region are equal, and in all of their variety 
 probably superior, to those of any other region of the country, and none 
 can be more cheaply worked. Indeed, under the influence of free, cheap, 
 capacious water transportation, the demands for these coals would con- 
 stantly and rapidly increase, and as their quantity (I may say and be 
 understood) is without limit, the capacity for their transportation will 
 after a time be the practical limit of their consumption. The coal and 
 iron accessible to this line would greatly contribute to the supremacy 
 of the United States in manufactures. Soon after its completion the 
 country would practically cease to import either coal or iron. The fit- 
 ness of this line for manufactures is very great. It has the climate and 
 coal and water-power at its dams, is in the vicinity of the grain of the 
 West and cotton of the South, with the Chesapeake and Ohio Eailroad 
 on its bonier for a long distance, with its low grade giving the two kinds 
 of transportation, which supplement each other. 
 
 Q. Have you estimated what the tonnage passing through the canal 
 would haveto pay to keep it properly in repair and in good working 
 order ? In other words, what would be the charges per ton or per 
 bushel ! 
 
 A. Less than one-third of one mill per ton per mile. This rate of toll 
 on 7,000,000 tons of through freight would yield more than $942,000, or 
 §2,000 per mile for 471 miles, the actual length (less .44 of a mile) of the 
 line. This is $1,193 per mile more than the average annual cost of 
 repairs for eighteen years of the James Eiver and Kanawha Canal in 
 its mountain district from Lynchburg to Buchanan. 
 
 There is no reason within my knowledge why the annual cost of re- 
 pairs of any portion of the projected line should exceed this sum. I 
 believe that it was the opinion of Mr. Lorraine that the annual repairs 
 of the line west of Buchanan would be less than those of the mountain 
 district just mentioned. 
 
 Q. What would that be per ton through the whole line? 
 
 A. About fifteen cents. 
 
 Q. Do you know the relative cost of canal and open-river navigation ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I have seen some of the opinions expressed as to this 
 relative cost. On this line, reduced to a level as explained, there would 
 
432 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 lbe 355^ miles of canal and 254.44 miles of river navigation. For the 
 reasons given, 1 believe that the carrier charges on this canal portion 
 will not exceed three mills per ton per mile, and on the river portion 
 two mills. The tolls at the rate adopted, and the cost of transfer of 
 cargoes, where such transfers are made, added to these carrier charges, 
 will constitute the charges of transportation over the line. The ap- 
 proach to the line from the east and west will be by ocean, inland seas, 
 and open river ; all free of toll and subject only to carrier charges, 
 probably at lowest rates. The transfers referred to may be, one at or 
 near the mouth of Howard's Creek, where the ship-locks are changed 
 to canal-locks, and another at or near the capes of Virginia, when the 
 cargoes are transferred to sea-going vessels. Parties shipping grain 
 from Saint Louis to New Orleans say that cargoes of grain would be 
 improved by the ventilation of the first transfer. The cost of this 
 transfer may be avoided by the barges towed through the ship-lock 
 being adapted in size to the canal-locks, or by the enlargement of the 
 canal-locks as suggested. The second transfer may be avoided by the 
 inland sea-routes, except as to shipments abroad. These transfers are 
 quickly made at small cost by floating elevators. 
 
 Before concluding, I ask permission to say a word about canal-tunnels, 
 I remember that during the session in 1869 of the National Board of Trade 
 I was asked whether any canal, in this country or abroad, hadatunnel, and, 
 for the want of information, I made a very unsatisfactory answer. I have 
 not since made any special search for canal tunnels. I did not see the 
 necessity of attempting thus to sustain gentlemen of great professional 
 ■Bbility and experience, who as engineers, after due examinations and 
 surveys, or after due consideration of such surveys, in their official re- 
 ports, and not less carefully prepared written papers, had expressed 
 clear and decided opinions, without dissent or qualification, favorable to 
 the construction of the proposed tunnel on the summit-level of this 
 canal. But in reading the life of James Brindley, the great construct- 
 ing engineer of the canal of the Duke of Bridgewater, from his coal- 
 mines at Worsley to Manchester, and of the Grand Trunk Canal, con- 
 necting the Mersey with the Trent and Severn, and one of the eminent 
 hydraulic engineers of England during the last century, I found that 
 canal-tunnels had been constructed in England one hundred years ago, 
 and had been in successful use ever since. The Bridgewater Canal was 
 completed in 1761, and during the life of Brindley was carried by a tun- 
 nel about one mile through rock to reach the coal, and this tunnel has 
 been extended for the navigation of coal-boats until now ; it is nearly 
 forty miles long in all directions. The Grand Trunk Canal was finished 
 in 1777, and is one hundred and thirty-nine and a half miles long, con- 
 necting by a grand line of water communication the ports of Liver- 
 pool, Hull, and Bristol. It penetrates at Harecastle the ridge which is 
 the continuation of the high ground forming what is called the " back- 
 bone " of England, and passes through this ridge by a tunnel 2,880 yards 
 long. There are five canal-tunnels on this canal of the aggregate length 
 of 5,160 yards. Telford subsequently constructed for the same canal a 
 parallel tunnel of larger size through this ridge, and the North Stafford- 
 shire Eailroad also passes through it by a tunnel almost parallel with 
 the line of both canal-tunnels. These canals met with the opposition 
 which great and meritorious enterprises in their beginning have so often 
 encountered. The proposed tunnel at Harecastle was especially the ob- 
 ject of ridicule. Its projectors were charged with the intention to de- 
 ceive the public, because they knew that this " chimerical idea," as it 
 was called, could not be carried into effect. But these canals and many 
 others with tunnels were built, and it is impossible to estimate what 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 433 
 
 they did to give wealth and power to England and to advance its civil- 
 ization, and as an essential part of the great system of commercial com- 
 munication of that country, what they continue to do to increase its 
 greatness. (Smiles's Lives of English -Engineers. Life of Briudley.) 
 
 I have been furnished with the following in connection with canal 
 tunnels; it is taken in subtancefrom Creesy's Encyclopedia of Engineer- 
 ing: 
 
 In Great Britain, on twenty-six canals, there are fifty-one tunnels, embracing in the 
 aggregate more than fifty-two miles of tunneling, (seventy-two miles,) the principal of 
 which are as follows : 
 
 The Cromford Canal has a tunnel at Ripley one and seven-tenths miles long. 
 
 The Dudley Canal has three tunnels— one 2 miles and 256 yards long, another 623 
 yards long, and a third one and two-thirds miles long. Total, 4 miles and 275 
 yards. 
 
 The Grand Junction Canal has one tunnel which is 1 mile and 285 yards long, and 
 another, the famous Blisworth tunnel, which is one and three-quarters miles long. 
 
 On the Hereford and Gloucester Canal there are three tunnels, embracing two and 
 one-quarter miles. 
 
 On the Huddersfield Canal there are two tunnels, one of them 3 miles and 270 
 yards long. 
 
 On the Leominster and Kingston Canal there is a tunnel 1,250 yards long, and one 
 2 miles and 330 yards long. 
 
 On the Thames and Midway Canal, which is 50 feet wide and 7 feet deep s there is a 
 tunnel two and a quarter miles long, which is 30 feet wide and about 40 feet high. 
 
 On the Thames and Severn Canal the Tarlton tunnel is two and three-eighths miles 
 long. 
 
 In France there is a tunnel on the Languedoc Canal 281 yards long, and ou the St. 
 Quintin and Cambray Canal, joining the Somme and the Scheldt, there are two tun- 
 nels, one 1,200 yards long, and another three and, a quarter miles long; Those tunnels 
 are 26 feet wide. 
 
 In connection with the completion of this central water-line, I submit 
 to the committee the memorials of the States of Iowa,. Kansas, Ken- 
 tucky) Ohio, West Virginia, and Virginia, also the report of the com- 
 mittee appointed by theKational Board; of Trade, and the memorials of 
 that body and of the Louisville Board of- Trade, and commercial con- 
 ventions of Louisville; Cincinnati; and Baltimore, and " of the delegates 
 to the National Board. of Trade on the subject of the James River and 
 ELanawha Ganal, reported in the Cincinnati Chamber of Commerce, and 
 approved March, 1870.?' 
 
 William C. WicSham, vice-president of the Chesapeake and Ohio 
 Eailroad : 
 
 I came, gentlemen, at your instance, and brought with me Mr. Whit- 
 comb, the chief engineer, and the superintendent, in case there were 
 any points upon which you would like their views. 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Please state the length of line of the road you represent — 
 the Chesapeake and Ohio — the commencement, its terminal points, 
 the capital stock, and all the facts that bear upon the line y its grad- 
 ings, &c, and any facts or any points that you may think give it an 
 advantage over competing lines. Take your own way of doing it. 
 
 Answer. I had no intim a tion until to-day that there was any desire for us 
 to appear before this committee. I understood that it was solely in regard 
 to the canal that you were here, and, consequently, have made no pre- 
 parationj but such information as you have suggested I am, of course, 
 perfectly ready to offer. 
 
 Q. The subject committed to us is the whole subject of transportation, 
 
 and we have been examining into the great railroad lines that compete 
 
 with you — the Erie Road, the Baltimore and Ohio, the Pennsylvania,. 
 
 and the New York Central, and, as a matter of course, have examined 
 
 23 T S . 
 
434 . TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 into the water-channels. We desire to examine into your means of 
 transportation from East to West and West to East. 
 
 A. I will commence, then, sir, by premising that this is a new line of 
 ours. For the first time within the last eight months it has been 
 opened from the Ohio to the James. The distance is four hundred and 
 twenty-two miles from Eichmond to Huntingdon, on the Ohio Eiver, 
 which is about seven miles above the mouth of the Big Sandy, at the 
 mountain-line. We are just now about completing a branch, an 
 extension of two miles in length, from Eichmond to the docks upon 
 the river, go as to bring us immediately in connection with the water at 
 both Huntington and the James. Our present connections are simply 
 the steamers on the Ohio Eiver, where we have to transfer our freight. 
 Our purpose has been, and is, to form a connection as rapidly as pos- 
 sible through Kentucky by way of Lexington to Louisville, which will 
 be a distance of two hundred and thirteen miles, which, added to the 
 122and five more that intervenes between the Kentucky line, makes 
 it 640 miles to Louisville. 
 
 Q. Louisville or Lexington ? 
 
 A. To Louisville. I have here a table of these distances, to which I 
 will refer. I find a comparison of distances made in this pamphlet, 
 which was published by the financial agents of the company, Fiskeand 
 Hatch, upon information, of course, furnished by our engineers and pre- 
 pared for them. I do not desire to be understood as drawing any 
 special comparison as against any other line, but this sums the dis- 
 tances between Eichmond and Cincinnati by our line ; and by its pro- 
 posed connection by rail through Ohio it is about one hundred and fifty 
 miles from Huntington to Cincinnati. The distance from Eichmond to 
 Cincinnati is 573 miles, while by the Baltimore and Ohio Eailroad from 
 Baltimore to Cincinnati is 591 miles. Philadelphia to Cincinnati is 668 
 miles. Those are the two lines, I presume, coming in comparison. Then 
 to Louisville 640 miles by our line, 699 by the Baltimore and Ohio, and 
 775 from Philadelphia by the Pennsylvania Eailroad. To Saint Louis, 
 890 for our line, 931 for the Baltimore line, and 992 for the Pennsylvania 
 line. Then the distances to Memphis and Nashville are formed by add- 
 ing the distance between Louisville and that point, making each one 
 that much farther. 
 
 We claim that when we get our connections through ours will be the 
 shortest and cheapest route between those cities with the West. When 
 you come to the cities on the more northern border, the other lines, of' 
 course, have the advantage, so that to Chicago we ate a fraction farther. 
 It is 832 miles to Chicago by our line, while it is 828 to Baltimore, and 
 823 to Philadelphia. To Indianapolis we have slightly the advantage, 
 688, 705 for the Baltimore line, and 736 for the Pennsylvania line, but 
 to Columbus both of them are ahead of us ; we have 564, the Baltimore 
 and Ohio 517, and the Philadelphia and Pennsylvania Eoad 548 miles. 
 
 As our road is now running we have a sectidn of grade running to 
 seventy feet as against the Western freight, over the North Mountain 
 and the Blue Eidge. That, of course, makes it more expensive than it 
 would be if our grades were there as they are west of Covington, from 
 Covington to the Ohio Eiver down the valleys of the Greenbrier, New 
 Eiver, and Kanawha, not exceeding thirty feet to the mile. The pur- 
 pose of the compauy is to construct a branch from Clifton Forge down 
 the James Eiver by way of Lynchburgh, coasting on the James to Eich- 
 mond, by which we will maintain the same grades that we have now 
 west of that point. That would give us a line with a grade for the 
 whole distance not exceeding thirty feet to the mile. 
 
 Q. Coming eastward ? 
 
TEANSPOETATION TO, THE SEABOABD. 435 
 
 A. Yes, sir, coming this way ; running up to 60 the other way. Our 
 idea is that hy affording probably the shortest and cheapest route be- 
 tween the waters of the Ohio and the Atlantic we will be able to trans- 
 port on easier terms the products of the West, and that we will, if we 
 can, turn the trade in that direction, and naturally bring trade to meet 
 it here. The coffee trade of South America and the sugar trade ought 
 both to be commanded by the wheat trade here, and that would give us 
 returning freights upon those articles. Of course, that will take a good 
 deal of enterprise on the part of the people who have to handle these 
 things. It will depend as much on their activity as it will upon our ca- 
 pacity to carry. 
 
 As to your question in regard to the stock and so on of the road, I 
 have in my hand the report of 1872. We have not yet made up our 
 report of 1873, and I have not, therefore, in the short time I had, pre- 
 pared an exact statement of the thing as it now stands. I will preface 
 that by saying that our authorized capital stock is $30,000,000 ; the 
 subscribed stock is $11,236,000 ; the funded debt of the company at the 
 period at which this was published was in round numbers $19,000,000, 
 and the cost of construction to that time was in round numbers 
 $25,000,000. 
 
 Q. Bonds and stock were more than cost of construction ? 
 
 A. I was going to say that I have not brought the equipment into 
 that calculation, nor discount and interest. 
 
 Q. The equipment was not counted in the construction ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; that was simply the construction of the road and the 
 building. 
 
 Q. Thirty million dollars is about the total of your liabilities, capital 
 stock and debt ? 
 
 A. Thirty-six million dollars at that date. 
 
 Q. You said $19,000,000 of bonds and $11,000,000 of stock, that 
 would make $30,000? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is increased how much ? 
 
 A. It is difficult for me to say, sir, because we have not made up our 
 statement, but it has been considerably increased since that time. There 
 has been a sale of several millions of bonds since that time. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. How are the eleven millions of stock paid ; how much did you put 
 the old road of the Virginia Central in at ? 
 
 A. Eight million dollars. 
 
 Q. What did you actually pay the State for the road f 
 
 A. It was turned over to us on condition that we would complete the 
 road. 
 
 Q. You paid her something 1 
 
 A. No, sir ; nothing, except for the Blue Ridge tunnel. We paid for 
 the Blue Ridge tunnel in State stock that they had paid them for 
 the Blue Ridge tunnel about $700,000 in State bonds. The road at the 
 period of its change into the Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad was called 
 the Virginia Central Railroad. The State had, years before the war, 
 commenced the construction of a road from Covington to the Ohio River, 
 and the war, of course, broke all those arrangements up, and they had 
 expended some three and a half millions of dollars upon the heaviest 
 work on the line, a great deal of the heavy work between Covington and 
 the White Sulphur Springs. 
 
 Q. You speak of the Covington and Ohio ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. When everything was started again after the war the 
 
436 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 State found that they could do nothing with this work, and the two 
 States put the road iuto the hands of commissioners, with power to make 
 the best contract that they could for the completion of the road. After 
 some two or three years, and a good deal of legislation one way and an- 
 other, they finally made a contract with the present managers of the 
 road to turn over the State's interest in the road, except her stock, of 
 which she still has $2,000,000 ; turn over her interest in the Covington and 
 Ohio Eoad, on condition that this company would complete the road in a 
 given time and put it in operation to the Ohio Eiver, which they did, 
 and that contract with these commissioners gave these parties the 
 authority to issue such an amount of stock, in consideration of the do- 
 nation by the State of three and a half millions of work that had been 
 done. 
 
 Q. How much did you pay the State for the three millions and a half 
 of work? 
 
 A. We pay her the completion of the road, which would not have been 
 completed otherwise. 
 
 Q. You bought the Virginia Central from the State ? 
 
 A. No, sir; we are stockholders in the Virginia Central Eoad. The 
 stockholders in the Virginia Central are stockholders in the Louisa 
 Eailroad. 
 
 Q. Was not the State a stockholder in the Virginia Central 1 
 
 A. And is still in the Chesapeake and Ohio to the extent of $2,000,000. 
 To the same extent that she has always been. 
 
 Q. Do I understand you that the State owns the same amount of stock 
 in dollars in the present Chesapeake and Ohio Eoad that she formerly 
 owned in the Virginia Central 1 
 
 A. To a dollar. Exactly the same, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. And $2,000,000 in the other road 1 
 
 A. It is nothing but the name. If she has a certificate, and I suppose 
 she has, parts of it are in the name of the Louisa Eailroad and parts in 
 the name of the Virginia Central Eailroad. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. The State of West Virginia, as I understand, gave or donated 
 with the franchise whatever might have been expended bv her, without 
 cost ? 
 
 A. Exactly, sir. 
 
 Q. There was no stock issued to her for any part of that 1 ? 
 
 A. O, no ; nor to the State of Virginia. The stock which Virginia 
 now holds in the Chesapeake and Ohio Eailroad Company is the same 
 stock which the two States, when one, held in the Virginia Central Eail- 
 road Company, and, of course, is a part of the assets of the State. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect what that amount is, sir, that the State owns in 
 your roadf ' 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; two million dollars and odd. 
 
 Q. You get from the State the road to Covington, I understand. How 
 was the other $9,000,000 made up ? 
 
 A. There was part of it existed as stock in the Louisa & Central Eail- 
 loaci, originally. I have not the figures here. I see this report does 
 not give the figures before this additional stock. When this road was 
 originally built it was built upon what was called here in Virginia the 
 two and three-fifths principle; that is, the State subscribed three-fifths 
 and individuals two-fifths, and that was the stock of the Virginia Cen- 
 tral Eailroad prior to its conversion iuto the Chesapeake & Ohio Eail- 
 road. When the contract was made there were certain land subscrip- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 437 
 
 tions made, which form a small item of preferred stock, which is there, 
 and the balance was the stock which was issued to represent this work 
 which had, been previously done upon the Covington & Ohio Eoad, and 
 to represent the property "in the.Blue Eidge Bailroad, which was bought 
 from the State by these parties. If you will permit me, however, I do 
 not see exactly how that bears upon the question of transportation. 
 
 Q. It has been the habit of the committee with reference to railroads 
 to inquire in what way their stock has been made Up. There i» a good 
 deal of talk in the country about watering, and that they did not cost 
 what is represented, and it has been generally explained to the com- 
 mittee. 
 
 A. I understand. Of course I have not the slightest objection, be- 
 cause this thing is all here in our report, but at the same time I sup- 
 posed that it was a question to transportation, and I. certainly have not 
 looked into these subjects. What I am telling you now is merely from 
 a general knowledge of the subject without referring to the data. I am 
 ready, however, to answer any questions. 
 
 Q. Has the State a direction in your road I 
 
 A. No, sir. The directors are elected by the stockholders, each stock- 
 holder having one vote for each share, and the State having the same 
 number of votes for each one of her shares. She votes as a stockholder 
 in the stockholders' meetings, and the directors are elected at those 
 meetings. 
 
 Q. I had understood that your company had bought out the State's 
 interest ; but I was wrong in it according to your statement. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Has your road been running long enough so that you can give us 
 any idea of the general nature of its business, what its transportation 
 is, &c. ? 
 
 A. I can scarcely say that it has, with a bearing upon the future, 
 owing to this trouble of the transfer at Huntington, but we carry what- 
 ever is produced in the West. We bring it eastward, and whatever is 
 produced or offered for sale from the Bast to the West we carry west- 
 ward. Our principal item just now is grain and bacon from the West. 
 1 speak now of the through business, and not of the local business ; 
 tobacco, manufactured, some naval stores from North Carolina, and so 
 on, and merchandise from this point and from New York and Philadel- 
 phia. 
 
 Q. What kind of a coal trade have you, and what kind of coal? 
 
 A. We have the cannel-coal, regarded as the most valuable, selling 
 at a higher price than others. Our transportation of that is quite hand- 
 some. There are but two mines of that coal in operation. Nearly the 
 whole of it is shipped to New York, where it is being taken up for the 
 gas-houses. The next coal is the splint coal, which is a very tine fuel, 
 and is regarded also as particularly valuable for the. working of iron, 
 being free from sulphur. 
 
 Q. How much of the line of your road is through what is called a 
 coal country ? 
 
 A. There has recently been opened up what they claim is going to be 
 a very valuable coal-basin, upou the New Eiver, which extends the line a 
 good deal east of the point which it had previously been supposed it could 
 be worked advantageously. I suppose that the distance is now about 
 80 miles upon which veins are worked that we ruu through ; but beyond 
 that, down to the Ohio Eiver, there is coal from point to point, but still, 
 west of Charlestown, it is only worked for the purposes of the neigh- 
 borhood. 
 
438 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Q. You have a coal-bed, then, from the mountains to (Jharlestown ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; from a short distance below the mouth of the New 
 Eiver, where the Greenbrier enters, to Oharlestown. The coal on the 
 New Eiver, though, is a bituminous coal, and is not supposed to be as 
 valuable as that splint-coal, but is a fine coking coal. 
 
 Q. Have you iron-ore on the line of your road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; at various points, but principally between the Blue 
 Eidge and the Alleghany, in very large quantities. The iron-masters 
 from Pennsylvania, several of whom have settled there and established 
 furnaces, speak in very high terms of their prospects. Their idea is 
 that they can manufacture pig-metal at a smaller cost considerably there 
 than they can in Pennsylvania. 
 By Mr. Oonkltng : 
 
 Q. In which counties is that? 
 
 A. Alleghany and Eockbridge are the two principal counties ; some 
 in Augusta. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by saying there are only two mines of cannel- 
 coal ? 
 
 A. There are only two mines in operation. There are only two com- 
 panies who are mining the cannel-coal. 
 
 Q. Anywhere? 
 
 A. On the line of the road. 
 
 Q. Within what extent do you mean ? Do you mean directly on the 
 line of your road 1 
 
 A. Well, near enough for us to transport it. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Do you mean that there are but two places where there is such 
 caunel-coal, or only two opened 1 
 
 A. Only two opened. There are several other points on which the 
 cannel-coal can be developed, and we are expecting that it will be devel- 
 oped at once. The deposit is a considerable one, but it has so happened 
 that but two of these mines — which were both of them established previous 
 to the war, one on the G-auley Eiver, and the other immediately upon 
 the Kanawha, andbutafew miles below thefalls of the Kanawha, below its 
 iunction with the Gauley — had been worked prior to the war, and, they 
 being in condition, have been developed since, and have been quite actively 
 worked, especially since they have had this outlet to the east. There was a 
 PaintCreek company which worked a mine formerly, but they are not now 
 working it. The difficulty here of transfer through this city of Eich- 
 mond, until we got this connection which we are just about completing 
 to thewater, has impeded considerably the opening of these coal-mines. 
 There has been a very considerable tax for drayage through the town, 
 which has caused them to wait until they could see how they could get 
 their coal immediately ou the water, and we expect that will result in a 
 great development of this cannel-coal, which is sold at $16 a ton in New 
 York. 
 
 Q. What do you charge per ton for the transportation of coal from 
 the mines to Eichmond'? 
 
 A. A cent and a half a ton a mile. 
 
 Q. What is the distance from the coal-field to Eichmond'? 
 
 A. Abouc 350 miles. 
 
 Q. About $5 a ton, then 1 
 
 A. Five dollars and nineteen cents, I think, it foots up, sir. For the 
 splint-coal the charge is $4.50 per ton for rather a longer distance, and the 
 bituminous coal we expect to put at a lower rate still, according to the 
 value of the coal. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 439 
 
 Q. What do you call a ton ? 
 
 A. Two thousand pounds. One idea that we have of the future value 
 of the road is the fact of the iron and coal being about a hundred miles 
 distant, and we expect to be able to transport the coal to the iron-mines, 
 where they will have furnaces, and that the same parties will have fur- 
 naces at the coal-mines ; so that we will bring return loads of ore, and 
 avoid the hauling of deadwood over that part of the line. 
 
 Q. Is there limestone there! 
 
 A. Limestone, as a general thing, has to be hauled, but there are points 
 at which the limestone is in very close proximity to the iron-mines. 
 
 Q. Do you claim any other advantage in your line of traffic of the 
 through route except the question of distance and grade? 
 
 A. The distance, grade, and climate. 
 
 Q. To what extent does your climate give you an advantage, do you 
 
 A. We never have to stop a train on account of snow. 
 
 Q. Is that the only advantage 1 . 
 
 A. There is no freezing, or rarely any freezmg of pipes, or anything 
 of thaj; kind ; but the great point is, that there is no stoppage by snow- 
 drifts. I do not think that we have lost eight hours from snow in any 
 one trip since I have been connected with the road. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling- : 
 
 Q. Is the mere matter of temperature, aside from snow, of no conse- 
 quence unless it freezes your pipes ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir ; I think it is of some value ; but still not enough to make 
 any important difference. 
 
 Q. Understand my question, if you please. Is the matter of tempera- 
 ture, aside from snow, of any consequence, except in respect to freezing 
 your pipes ? Or, to put it otherwise, is it of any consequence in the 
 effect that it has upon contracting iron and causing it to break, whether 
 in wheels or axles \ 
 
 A. I should not think that between our latitude and the Baltimore 
 and Ohio there would be. If you go farther north I think there would 
 be very considerable. 
 
 Q. Go to the New York Central ? 
 
 A. I should think we would have a very decided advantage. 
 
 Q. In what regard ? 
 
 A. That the rails would not be as apt to break as on the New York 
 Central. 
 
 Q. The same thing as to all iron equipage ! 
 
 A. I should think so, sir. 
 
 Q. Wheels, axles, and all that 1 
 
 A. I should think so, though I do not pretend to be sufficiently an 
 expert to answer that. My reason for saying it in regard to the rails is 
 that it is a very rare thing that we ever have a rail to break, while I 
 understand it is very frequently the case in the extreme cold weather 
 of the northern latitudes that they do break. 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. What is your charge for passenger travel "1 
 
 A. Our charge has been, until recently, about five cents per mile, but 
 we have graduated that recently, so as to have it five and four and a 
 half and four cents, according to the distances. 
 
 Q. Can you fix a tariff of freight, say fourth-class, including grain, &c. ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is that one and a half cents a ton a mile ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
440 TRANSPOKTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Q. I suppose you have not your tariff fixed on a permanent basis yet ? 
 
 A. We started with them at what we hoped to be a permanent basis, 
 and that was low. We took the Baltimore and Ohio tariff from Balti- 
 more to Cincinnati, and started upon that, but then gentlemen got to 
 complimenting the Pennsylvania Eoad, and the result was they got 
 down a figure below their original freight, and we have not exactly got 
 down to that yet. I do not know that we will have to do it, but when 
 you get down to a cent and a half upon a good many articles it is haul- 
 ing at a very low rate unless you have as much as your road can carry; 
 then you can haul, of course, for vastly less. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Less than one and a half, do you think? 
 
 A. I think so, sir ; if you had enough of it to do. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Yes, a cent a ton a mile is what they charge, as a rule, on the 
 New York Central, on certain classes of freight. 
 
 A. I think that with two tracks devoted to freight alone, and with a 
 low rate of speed, there is scarcely— I am scarcely able to say how 
 low you could carry freight. But then you have to have an endless 
 chain of trains. You cannot do it if you have to keep up all your par- 
 aphernalia for a million of tons that you would for five millions. 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Do these through-freight lines use your road ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; we have none of them on our road. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do you prorate with any water-line 1 ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. On what terms'? 
 
 A. They give us two miles for one of rail. They divide. For in- 
 stance, one hundred and fifty miles of water is equal to seventy -five 
 miles of rail. 
 
 Q. That is on the Ohio Eiver ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you prorate with the canal at all ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 P. G. Coghlan, secretary of the chamber of commerce of Eich- 
 mond, Va. : 
 
 By the Chairman : ' 
 
 Question. Have you, any general statements as to the commerce and 
 business of this city prepared to present to the committee ? 
 
 Answer. If I had known I was to be examined I should have 
 prepared more fully, but I have a few facts here which I have prepared 
 especially as to the foreign trade. 
 
 The principal exports of this city are tobacco and flour. The total 
 exports of articles during the year ending the 30th of September, 1872, 
 were 96,815 barrels of flour; this is direct exportation ; 5,262 hogsheads 
 of leaf-tobacco, 217 hogsheads of stems, 1,457 hogsheads of tobacco 
 strips, and 2,422 bags of bark. Those were exported direct from Eich- 
 mond. A good deal of produce goes foreign and from other ports. For 
 instance, our flour is shipped to New York, and from thence to Europe 
 and South America. The exports for the year ending September 30 r 
 1873, show a large increased total export of leading articles during the 
 yean 115,829 barrels of flour ; 8,670 hogsheads of leaf-tobacco ; 203 
 tierces leaf-tobacco ; 580 hogsheads of stems ; 424 hogsheads of tobacco- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 441 
 
 strips ; 337 tierces of tobacco-strips ; 1,340 bags of bark ; 48,000 staves 
 arid headings ; showing a balance in favor of this year of $800,000. That 
 is, the foreign exports, as recorded in the custom-house books, exceeded 
 those of last year. The freight of the Richmond dock has been increased 
 very materially by the exportation of caDnel-coal, 20,000 tons of which 
 have - been transported since the mines were opened. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. Exported where to f 
 
 A. To New York principally. I have also a statement showing the 
 manufactured tobacco in this city for the nine months ending Septem- 
 ber, 1873, as compared with 1872, showing an increase of 3,000,000 of 
 pounds. But there is a very remarkable diminution in the receipts of 
 wheat. The receipts of wheat at the Corn Exchange for the three 
 months ending September, 1873, show a diminution of 157,000 bushels, 
 which is attributable to two causes — one that the crop of wheat is much 
 less than it was thought it would be, and the other that a good many 
 of the farmers are holding up on their wheat for higher prices. I have 
 also a statement showing the tobacco crop of the State of Virginia for 
 the year ending the 30th of September,, 1872, showing that the total 
 amount is 88,792,152 pounds. 
 
 Q. Have you the crop of the year before ? 
 
 A. No, sir; I have not. 
 
 Q. You have not it for this year, of course ? 
 
 A. It is not made out yet. 
 
 Q. Have you not the crop for 1871 ? 
 
 A. I have, but I have not the book here. 
 
 Q. How does it compare, in general terms, with that ? 
 
 A. It was the larger crop. 
 
 Q. Which was the larger ? 
 
 A. The crop of 1872 was larger than the crop of 1871. 
 
 Q. -How much larger ? 
 
 A. 1 do uot know. 
 
 Q. About what percentage 1 
 
 A. I cannot tell you without turning to the record. 
 
 Q. What is the crop of 1873 as compared with 1872, so far as you 
 have information about it? 
 
 A. It is supposed to be a very large crop, and it is supposed that it 
 will exceed the crop of 1872. 
 
 Q. By considerable? 
 
 A. I cannot say how much, but the general opinion is that it exceeds 
 it somewhat. I heard some questions put a while ago about mines. I 
 have a statement here showing every mining operation in the State of 
 Virginia in the year 1871, of whatever character or class ; but that is 
 too voluminous to be read here; I will furnish your secretary with a copy 
 of the report. 
 
 Q. What kind of mines ? 
 
 A. Coal, iron, and copper, and gold, principally. 
 
 Q. Any other mines ? 
 
 A. Mica, pyrites, kaolin. 
 
 Q. Is that all? 
 
 A. That is all. 
 
 Q. Where is there a copper-mine, and what is it? 
 
 A. I do not recollect in what locality it is. 
 
 Q. More than one? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. From a statement of the gold from Virginia for 
 
442 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 1858-'59->61-'62, and so od, brought to the mint; in 1869 I observe that 
 the amount was $1,847. 
 
 Q. That was gold mined here ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where was it mined ? 
 
 A. This report does not state, but there are mines in Buckingham ; 
 they are not in operation now. 
 
 Q. Is there any copper-mine in operation now 1 ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Marshall Parks, president of the Chesapeake and Albemarle 
 Canal : 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Will you please give the committee any information which 
 may occur to you as valuable in connection with your work? 
 
 Answer. This canal is one of the line of canals along the coast, 
 extending from North Carolina to New York. There are the Albemarle 
 and Chesapeake, Chesapeake and Delaware, and the Delaware and Bari- 
 tan. They form the coast-line, avoiding the dangerous navigation of 
 Cape Hatteras, and extend from North Carolina to New York and Long 
 Island Sound. The canal was constructed especially with reference to 
 steam navigation. It has no tow-path, and no means of any boat pass- 
 ingth rough except by steam. There never has beeu a boat passed through 
 except by steam, or some time sail in a favorable wind. Of course it was 
 an experiment in this country. 
 
 Q. State the length of your sections of canal . 
 
 A. There are 43 miles of navigation, of which 14 miles are cut 
 through the land, the balance is improved river ; slack-water aud the 
 improvement of the natural water courses. By those two links' we are 
 enabled to open an extension of the navigation of about 1,800 miles in 
 the different rivers that are navigable for boats in Eastern North .Caro- 
 lina. The boats penetrate about 1,800 miles. 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Can you give us the size of your canal aud the depth 1 
 
 A. The locks are 40 feet wide and 220 feet long between the gates, 
 and arranged for boats of 12-feet draught. Of course the canal is not now 
 excavated to that depth, but the lock is put that low for the purpose of 
 any future improvements. 
 
 O. What locks are there ? 
 
 A. We have only one tide-lock. 
 By Mr. Conkling- : 
 
 Q. No other lift-locks ? 
 
 A. No sir ; it is a very level country. You pass through a swamp. 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. From one tide-water to another ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; we find, strange to say, that, notwithstanding it is a great 
 distance from the Atlantic waters that pass through Hatteras Inlet up to 
 the head-waters of Northland Biver, yet the water is about the same as it 
 ]s on Elizabeth ; that is, at half tide in Elizabeth Biver, the waters are 
 level. Hence we can open all the gates, and pass extensive rafts of 
 timber through ; sometimes half a mile or a mile can all go through 
 without locking. We only use the lock when the tide is higher in the 
 river than the water is in the canal. Hence the locks are of peculiar 
 construction and have two sets of gates pointing in different ways. By 
 this navigation we are enabled to go south as tar as Beaufort, N. C, 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 413 
 
 and thence for very light-draught steamers pass through some sounds 
 and get nearly to Cape Fear River, and with very little outside naviga- 
 tion we go to Florida. In fact the navigation is considered so safe that 
 I have sent these dredging machines down to Charleston, towed them 
 down from Norfolk to Charleston. 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. What distance is there saved by going through $ 
 
 A. From the outside passage ? 
 
 Q. I mean as between the outside and your route. 
 
 A. There is not much difference I think in distance. I do not think 
 you save anything in miles. We only save a dangerous coast for small 
 class vessels. There are no harbors from Cape Henry to Cape Hat- 
 teras. 
 
 Q. What size vessels do you let through now f 
 
 A. The largest, I suppose, we have now running through the canal 
 are about 400 tons. But the locks are capable of passing 1,000-ton ves- 
 sels. The business does not require yet, any larger class vessels than 
 that. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What was the tonnage passed through your canal last year ? 
 
 A. About 300,000 tons I think. 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. That is all local freight, is it not 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir, that is local, lines of steamers running from New Berne 
 to Washington and the Boanoke Biver to Baltimore and Philadelphia. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What are your charges per ton per mile? 
 
 A. We do not charge that way. The company charge the vessels 
 nothing — only the cargo — and that is so much a bushel, so much a bale 
 of cotton — say twenty cents — and one cent on a bushel of grain. That 
 is all the reveuue the company derive. The balance is paid to the ves- 
 sel for freight. 
 
 Q. Do you know what the freighters charge ? 
 
 A. They trausport from New Berne to Baltimore, which is about 400 
 miles, at twenty-five cents a barrel. It is about a half a cent a mile, or 
 a little less. 
 
 Q. Twenty-five cents a barrel on flour ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; on flour. They carry some heavier articles, such as 
 rosin, and naval stores, which are much heavier, for less than that. 
 
 Q. Is that an ordinary charge ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. A portion of the freight is about one-third of a cent a 
 ton a mile. Of course there are other articles that pay a higher rate, 
 but I am speaking of those heavy articles. 
 
 Q. I meau fourth-class freight 1 
 
 A. In all this portion of North Carolina in former years, it was a 
 habit, in clearing land, to cut the trees down and burn them. Now 
 they have all been made valuable by this work, and are transported 
 north. The Baltimore and Ohio Railroad lately have got 10,000 sticks 
 of timber from one point with which to construct their clocks. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Piles"? 
 
 The Witness. Yes, sir; piles and other timber. We are just making 
 up our statistics for the last fiscal year, and I am sorry I did not bring 
 them. I had a synopsis of the business. I recollect, however, 33,000,000 
 feet of lumber as one article. In former years we had about 2,000,000. 
 The lumber trade has increased prodigiously, whereas the agriculture 
 
444. TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 has fallen off. There is not one-tenth, or about one-tenth of the agricul- 
 ture that there was before the war. We had about 2,000,000 bushels 
 of grain and now we have only about 300,000. All the agricultural 
 products have fallen off with the exception of cotton. That has in- 
 creased very much. 
 
 Q. How long has your canal been in existence ? 
 
 A. It was opened for navigation in 1860, but not completed. It has 
 only recently been completed to its present dimensions — within a few 
 vears. 
 
 Q. You say dimensions— what do you mean by dimensions ? 
 
 A. The original canal was cut by steam. It was the first canal that 
 we have any knowledge of being cut entirely by steam-power, and 
 where the steam-power was found insufficient we resorted to powder 
 and exploded it under water. We had to cut through these enormous 
 cypresses, and it was very difficult of excavation. They were blown out. 
 The canal was only thirty feet wide. Then we constructed another one 
 parallel to that, leaving a space between them, and after, constructing 
 the two canals this center-piece had to be taken out, and, of course, we 
 had the use of the two lines while we were removing the center-piece. 
 The two canals were thirty feet wide each, and the space between was 
 about ten feet, I suppose, making sixty-five to seventy feet on the sur- 
 face. 
 
 Q. At what speed do you go with your steamboats, and what effect 
 does it have on the banks ? 
 
 A. The speed of the steamboats on the canal depends entirely upon 
 the relative size of the boats. A smaller boat makes a greater speed; 
 they run from about four miles an hour up to eight or nine, according 
 to the relative size of the boat. Long and narrow boats make greater 
 speed than very wide boats. The effect upon the banks of the canal, 
 which is probably one of the most important points which the canal was 
 designed to test, we not having any tow-path, and it being an alluvial 
 deposit, the banks of the canal have grown up with a very heavy growth 
 of briers and shrubbery, trees, reeds, and everything that protects the 
 banks from the wash of passing boats. Occasionally, where there is 
 nothing but pure white sand, we have had some little difficulty. There are 
 one or two places that have troubled us a little. In that case the canal 
 had to be widened. We made it a hundred feet and gave greater slope; 
 but we think that could be removed by putting in something that would 
 grow, or paving it up. That sand, of course, requires a great deal of 
 slope. It is very fine sand. 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. You mean not coarse, gritty sand, but more like pulverized sand? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Something of a quicksand? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; something of that kind. 
 
 Q. Sharp sand has great power of resistance as a bank— much more 
 than clay. 
 
 A. I understand that. 
 
 Q. I notice one of your canals extends between what is called Corn 
 Jack and Albemarle. I then see a connection between Currituck and 
 Albemarle Sound. Why was it that it was necessary to cut that canal 
 when there is a water connection ? 
 
 A. The object of that cut was to avoid the lower portion of Currituck 
 Sound, which is very shallow. The object of that canal is, we save dis- 
 tance in getting to Albemarle Sound and get rid of this shallow water. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 445 
 
 We found it less expensive to cut a canal through there than we would 
 to deepen those natural waters, and hence we made the cut, to get into 
 a fine navigable river. • 
 
 Q. Have you examined the coast-line down as far as Georgia or 
 Florida? 
 
 A. I have not, sir. I have never been down myself with boats. I 
 have sent them down there. 
 
 Q. Oan you state how many miles of canalling it will be necessary to 
 make in order to have a connected inland water communication from 
 the Chesapeake Bay to the coast of Florida ? 
 
 A. No, I could not state with any accuracy. The present map will 
 show the rivers that could be united ; but these inland waters would 
 require improving. For instance, take the sound that comes from 
 Pamlico Sound to Beaufort, there are portions that would require some 
 improvement. I have passed through it with six feet of water. Then 
 from Beaufort south there is not an average of perhaps four feet. 
 That would require improvement to get a boat of any great draught. Still, 
 some boats of light draught now pass through going south. We have 
 built boats upon the Ohio Eiver plan at Norfolk, and sent them to 
 Augusta, Ga. They pass down through that navigation, and after 
 getting to Beaufort they of course would have to wait for a favorable 
 opportunity to go outside. They go down and go into New Eiver Inlet 
 and get clear of Cape Fear ; so that the boats, instead of going on the 
 Atlantic all around the dangerous coast of North Carolina, escape that, 
 Cape Hatteras, Lookout, and Cape Fear, by this inland navigation, and 
 there is no point, I think, more than two hours' run for a boat of light 
 draught to a harbor when they go on the ocean outside. They are within 
 easy distance of a secure harbor for boats of a very light draught now. 
 But from what I learn from persons who have examined it it would not 
 be a very long cut from the Cape Fear Biver or Waccomow to George- 
 town, S. C, and thence there is an inland passage, I think, all the way 
 south. The report of last year is now in press. 1 think this gives an 
 account of some fifty-eight steamers running on the canal, the number 
 of passages each boat has made, &c, and the other table presents the 
 quantity of produce carried through ; and we have also a report of Mr. 
 MacAlpine, a former engineer of the State of New York, iu regard to 
 the capacity of the canal for the traffic. He estimates the capacity of 
 the canal at 39,000,000 of tons. They have great capacity and not 
 much business. 
 
 Q. Do you ever tow the Erie Canal boats on the Chesapeake ? 
 
 A. We have, sir ; we have brought boats from Buffalo. 
 
 Q. Do you find any difficulty at all in towing them on the Chesapeake 
 Bay? 
 
 A. Not at all. It is demonstrated that there would be no danger 
 whatever in towing on the Chesapeake Bay. The harbors are ten or 
 fifteen miles apart, of easy access. We sent 40,000 sticks of timber and 
 I think we have only lost two sticks where they have been properly 
 rafted, and it is contemplated now, and we are sending every day 
 barges from North Carolina to Baltimore and Philadelphia. Not a very 
 great number, because it is a new traffic lately opened and we have had 
 business enough to engage us. I have passed from North Carolina to 
 New York to Lake Ontario iu a steamboat thirty years ago. So that 
 we have had quite a long time to improve. Thirty years ago there was 
 a boat built at the navy-yard trying a new mode of propulsion, the 
 wheels working horizontally. As it did not make any swell it was sup- 
 posed to be a good thing for canal navigation, and at the request of the 
 Secretary of the Navy we made an experimental voyage to the North. 
 
44G TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 I had charge of the steamer. We went to the different navy stations 
 at Philadelphia and New York, thence to Albany, and thence to Lake 
 Ontario. It was found, though, that the mode of propulsion was not 
 good for canals. While it did not make any swell yet the wheel was 
 placed in a very objectional part of the boat, right at the bilge, and 
 would come in contact with the sides of the canal and get pieces of 
 gravel in and stop it. We found nothing better in our mode of propel- 
 ling than the ordinary screw, though in our canal we use all the modes 
 that are known. We have both side-wheel, stern-wheel, and propel- 
 lers ; wheels in the bow and wheels in the stern. We have tried every 
 kind of invention, but none of them yet have obtained the same results 
 as the ordinary screw, the plain screw. This is the universal plan now 
 that is adopted. This screw takes up a very small portion of the 
 boat. [The witness here explains a sectional view of boat.] This 
 plan was gotten up to illustrate steam on canals, and I will state 
 that if the James Biver and Kanawha was enlarged, boats of that 
 description could unload anywhere on the western waters and go to 
 Eichmond, Norfolk, Baltimore^ Philadelphia, and New York without 
 any transshipment and with perfect safety, for boats of that description 
 are running every day on Chesapeake Bay. 
 
 Q. Did you mention the length and beam of that boat ? 
 
 A. The plan of the boat is 200 feet length, 23J wide. One of the 
 most remarkable things in regard to the work was this, that it was 
 commenced to supersede a work owned by the government of the 
 State, and it was built almost without any means to start with, find- 
 ing means as they went along. Persons came forward and sub- 
 scribed and built this work, which is now capable of passing the largest 
 boats on the coast in this eastern part of the country. Its capacities 
 are too extensive yet for the country until it gets filled up. We are now 
 building otner canals to shorten the route south. 
 
 General J. D. Imboden : 
 
 Mr. Chairman, in reference to the coal and iron of the Virginias, 
 particularly along this line, perhaps it will be best to commence at Eich- 
 mond and follow up the canal, and state what the deposits are, prefac- 
 ing it with the remark that for several years I have made these mine- 
 rals a subject of pretty close investigation and study, especially in Vir- 
 ginia. 
 
 After passing out of the coal-fields near Eichmond, with which you 
 are of course familiar, and getting out of the granitic region 
 
 The Chairman. Tell us a little about the coal-fields about Eichmond. 
 
 General Imboden. You come upon the coal-fields about tenmilesabove 
 this city, onthecanal. The field is some five or six miles in width, and ex- 
 tends from near Petersburgh, crossing the James some ten miles above 
 this, and is about 30 miles in length. It is in outline an irregular ellipse, 
 and remarkable in one respect-^anomalous, in fact, in mineralogy and 
 geology. The coal is found resting here on the granite, an unknown cir- 
 cumstance, I believe, in carboniferous formations anywhere else, per- 
 haps, in the world. This is one of the oldest known coals. I believe 
 the received opinion now is that this Eichmond coal-field is the crater 
 of an extinct volcano in the granitic formation, and that the coal was 
 formed elsewhere, and drifted there, and deposited in pockets among 
 the peaks and ridges of the granite found running in every direction 
 through the field. In mining, if you hit one of these deep pockets, you 
 may find a deposit of fine coal 40 feet in thickness ; if you miss the 
 pocket you may come on the granite, where the coal is very thi^ and 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 447 
 
 where it seems to have been stretched like a pair of saddle-hags across 
 the intervening ridge or peak of granite that penetrates it. 
 
 The held, too, presents another anomaly. There is found a natural 
 coke in one portion of the coal-field here, produced by the injection into 
 the carboniferous formation, in a hot and liquid state, of porphyry and 
 other matter that now forms faults, troubles, and dikes. It is a very 
 good coke, and brought here for sale, about as good as that formed in 
 the coking-ovens from coal. 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Question. What kind of coal is that ? 
 
 Answer. Bituminous, not suitablefbr iron-smelting without beiugcoked, 
 for there is a good deal of sulphur in it. It has been sent off for a long 
 time to the cities of the North both for fuel and as a gas coal, and ranks 
 high. 
 
 By Mr. Conjcling : 
 
 Q. Is it at all like the canuel coal ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; nor so rich in gas. 
 
 Q. Like the Cumberland coal ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; somewhat. I should say that the coal of the Richmond 
 field is more like the Nova Scotia or Cape Breton coals than any other 
 with which I am at all acquainted. 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Is it found above or below the water level 1 
 
 A. It is generally below. The Dover mines, seventeen miles above 
 here, are several hundred feet below the bed of the river, and the gal- 
 leries run under the river. You have to shaft. I was two weeks ago 
 at Clover Hill, in Chesterfield County, twenty-seven miles from Rich- 
 mond, where they are hoisting coal up a perpendicular shaft of 900 leet 
 to the surface with an incline of 300 feet rise from the coal-bed ; they 
 are working to the foot of the shaft. They are much troubled with 
 water at that point. The coal, however, is among the best in the 
 whole field. These Richmond coal mines were known and worked be- 
 fore the revolutionary war, and are the oldest ever worked in this 
 country. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Is this quarry of granite they are working out here a part of that ? 
 
 A. The same formation precisely. The granite formation of Virginia 
 is an interesting one in one respect. There is a line that forms the falls 
 of our rivers running almost exactly, due north ahd south, and extend- 
 ing from Weldon, N. C to Georgetown, D. C. You have there the falls 
 of the Potomac ; extending that line south, at Fredericksburgh you have 
 the falls of the Rappahannock ; here the falls of the James ; at Peters- 
 burgh the Appomattox, and at Weldon the Roanoke. These falls are 
 caused by the upheaval of the granite on this north and south line. 
 East of that line, from here to the sea, occurs a tertiary formation. 
 There are no minerals or rocks found from here to the coast. It is all a 
 huge drift of sand, clay, and shell. You find large deposits of shell-marl 
 in the peninsula below us here 10 to 20 feet in thickness. But there are 
 no economic minerals east of this city or east of that line anywhere, 
 with the exception, occasionally, of a small drift of bog-ore, or some- 
 thing of that sort. 
 
 In the. glacial period there have been some iron ores drifted in and 
 dropped in small quantities in some of the counties below here, but 
 nothing worth working has been found. 
 
 Passing from the coal mines along up James River, you come iuto an 
 
448 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 entirely different formation, the metainorphic overlying the plutonic, 
 and on the western edge of which you first encounter the Pottsdam 
 sandstone in the Blue Ridge Mountains. You find immense deposits of 
 good hematite, specular, and magnetic iron ores all through this meta- 
 morphic region. In Albemarle, Nelson, and Amherst, and across the 
 river in Buckingham and Appomattox, there are very large seams of 
 iron, practically inexhaustible. They are working some of those ores 
 now at the largest furnaces in the State, seven miles above the city, and 
 making very excellent iron. The best of these ores, I would say, aver- 
 age about fifty-six per cent, of metallic-iron. They are found along the 
 side of the canal at many places. Two mines that they are now work- 
 ing are perhaps not over a mile and a quarter from the canal. The ore 
 is run down by a tram to the boats. 
 
 West of the Pottsdam sandstone out-crop in the Blue Ridge, you come 
 into the purely hematite formations of iron ore, as rich, perhaps, as any 
 in the world. " These are in the Bine Ridge and west of it. 
 
 The great hematite formation extends from New Jersey through Penn- 
 sylvania and Maryland into Virginia, and along with the Blue Ridge 
 range on into Tennessee, Georgia, and Alabama. These ores are, how- 
 ever, chiefly on the west side of the Blue Ridge, and are found parallel 
 with the mountains, and cropping out almost everywhere. It is literally 
 true that you may strike the western base, and side of the Blue Ridge 
 anywhere and find iron ; not always in workable quantity, but in im- 
 mense deposits in certain localities, all the way from Harper's Ferry to 
 the Tennessee line, and as I have said as far as Alabama. There exists 
 a line of old charcoal furnaces that, were worked for a long time in the 
 valleys west of the Blue Ridge, many of which have been allowed to go 
 out of blast from the exhaustion of the fuel along the, line, bnt they are 
 now being renewed. The Chesapeake and Ohio Road is giving new 
 life to them by bringing this splint coal of the Kanawha within 
 their reach. The Pennsylvania Central Road is running a branch . 
 known as the Shenandoah Valley Railroad, up as far as Staunton, for the 
 purpose mainly of reaching the iron-ores of which I speak. They are 
 not confined to the Blue Ridge, but lie in the valley and mountains west 
 of it. The canal terminates at present at Buchanan, where there is a 
 very rich iron interest, one of the richest that has been opened to de- 
 velopment in Virginia, and from Buchanan up to the foot of the Alle- 
 ghanies, following the valley of the James and Jackson rivers, there are 
 not five consecutive miles along this water-line where you do not find 
 immense seams of rich hematite-ore throughout that entire region. 
 The finest flux perhaps in the world is found in the silurian limestones 
 of the valley west of the Blue Ridge, after you pass Balcony Falls, 
 where the North River of Rockbridge County and the. James come 
 together. You there enter the great limestone formation of the Shenan- 
 doah Valley, the same that forms the Cumberland Valley, and, running 
 through Pennsylvania, extends into New York; and southward runs 
 down into Alabama. After passing the Alleghanies, on the line of this 
 improvement, there are no minerals of much value until you get down 
 to the coal region, except the limestones found again in Greenbrier 
 County. Along the Greenbrier River there is some very fine limestone 
 tor fluxing and building purposes. It belongs to the Carboniferous 
 series, and is rich in carbonate of lime, 
 
 The first point at which coal is reached is in the Sewell Mountain, ■ 
 below the mouth of Greenbrier or New River some distance, where you 
 strike the lower series of the great Alleghany coal-field. The upper 
 seam of that series is probably 1,200 feet below the water level of the 
 Kanawha River as low down as Charleston, and when you get to the 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 449 
 
 Ohio Eiver it is too deep ever to be worked, being, perhaps, over 2,000 
 feet under the surface of the Ohio. That lower series is a foEmation 
 that has some seams of very excellent coking, bituminous coal, rich in 
 carbon, but too friable and too tender a coal. 1 examined a specimen 
 of it within the last fortnight in company with probably the most emi- 
 nent living mineralogist in the world — Professor Ansted, of England, 
 for a long time president of the Eoyal Geological Society, who is now 
 in the Kanawha Valley, and from whence I have just returned. The 
 coal of that series probably will not bear transportation, certainly not 
 by rail and possibly to no very great extent by water in its raw natural 
 state. It crumbles, but is a very rich coal, and when coked is an ex- 
 ceedingly valuable fuel for iron-smelting. They are about to use it in a 
 large new furnace on the line of the Chesapeake and Ohio Eoad at 
 Quinamonte, and there is no question but it will make a most capital 
 fuel and be exceedingly valuable. 
 
 Beyond that you come first to what is generally understood by " the 
 Great Alleghany Coal Field," upper series with an intervening sand- 
 stone dividing it from the lower, of perhaps 1,200 feet in thickness. 
 About nine miles above the mouth of the Gauley at Hawk's Nest, 
 appears the eastern outcrop of this series, where you have fourteen 
 veins presented in their average thickness. You go down to the Gauley 
 and fairly enter the cannel formation, which extends from Coal Eiver in 
 the southwest, to and up the Gauley Eiver in a northeasterly direction, 
 about sixty miles to a point in or near the edge of Webster County, 
 between the Elk and Gauley Eivers. The belt is about twenty miles 
 wide in which the cannel coal is found a'nd about sixty miles long. It 
 is a curious formation, inasmuch as the cannel does not exist every- 
 where through this entire district of sixty miles in length and twenty 
 in width, but is found here and there ; and much thicker in some places 
 than in others. About Peytona, on Coal Eiver, and at Boone Court- 
 House, on Little Coal, it is found in almost its maximum thickness. 
 You find it thinner but in very good workable thickness at Cannelton, on 
 the Kanawha, where they are working the mines now, and shipping 
 their coal by the Chesapeake and Ohio Eoad. I think, and that is I 
 believe the opinion of Professor Ansted and others who have investi- 
 gated the subject, that its maximum thickness is now ascertained to be 
 up the Gauley Eiver and its tributaries, commencing six miles from the 
 mouth of the Gauley, and extending across to Elk Eiver. 
 
 Q. Name that maximum, if you please. 
 
 A. In seams opened there within the last four or five months the 
 thickness of the cannel seam I am acquainted with is a little over five 
 feet. That is fouud imbedded with other coal in a seam about thirteen 
 feet thick, the seam containing splint, bituminous, and cannel. The can- 
 nel, however, is about five feet in thickness. That is on a tract of over 
 40,000 acres on the Little Elk, a tributary of the Gauley, nine miles 
 above its mouth, and lying between the Gauley and Elk rivers. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS: 
 
 Q. What is the position of the cannel seam 1 
 
 A. It is a little more than half way between the bottom and the top 
 of the entire seam. There is a little bituminous coal, then a parting of 
 slate of five or six inches that frequently occurs in all these coals ; then 
 you will have splint coal, perhaps .three feet; then the cannel comes in, 
 and then above that will be splint or bituminous, eighteen, twenty, or 
 twenty-four inches. 
 
 Q. Is it level and regular in the mountain ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; the uniform dip of that upper coal series is about a hundred 
 29 t a 
 
450 TRANSPORTATION TO TIIE SEABOARD. 
 
 feet to the mile to the northwest. That dip is almost absolutely uni- 
 form. " There has been do violent geological disturbance there at any- 
 time, but in the gradual upheaval that occurred there was a little tilt 
 given to it, but with the exception of a trifling bending down at the 
 sides of the mountains and which you pass in going in twenty or thirty 
 feet, the dip is almost perfectly uniform all through the district of 
 country I speak of. 
 
 Q. Does it drain towards the river ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the whole country is cut with very deep ravines, as you 
 will find when you pass through it. The highest mountains on the 
 Gauley are about 1,600 feet above the water level, and in the highest 
 mountains the cannel coal is found in its greatest perfection. The up- 
 per member of the Carboniferous series there is a peculiar black flint 
 ledge, which pervades the whole region, and under that is found this 
 cannel coal iu its greatest perfection, near the summit of the mountains. 
 "Where the mountains are low, as they are on the Kanawha Eiver, below 
 Cannelton, the cannel coal disappears. The line of the cannel belt I 
 speak of, from Gauley Eiver crosses the Kanawha River a few miles east 
 of Charleston. There is no cannel very near Charleston or beyond 
 and west of it down the river at all. 
 
 I believe that the only adequate means of fully developing the enor- 
 mous splint and cannel coal interests that lie in the counties of Fayette, 
 Nicholas, and Clay, between the Elk and Gauley, will be by the con- 
 struction of this water-line. When you have once improved the navi- 
 gation on the Kanawha up to the mouth of the Gauley, two dams in 
 that river, of fifteen feet each, will give slack-water navigation for very 
 large barges up the Gauley as far as the mouth of Twenty Mile Creek 
 and of Little Elk, tributaries of the Gauley, and thus open up an im- 
 mense field of the best cannel and splint coals in that whole region. 
 The improvement of Elk Eiver, too, will do the same thing for the other 
 side of the mountain, which is very high there. 
 
 There is another point of view in which this water line must have a 
 most important bearing upon the development of the resources of that 
 country. Passing the mouth of the Greenbrier and going up New 
 Eiver in the direction of the great valley of Virginia and the southwest, 
 we strike the great iron formation in Giles, Bland, Mercer, Floyd, Mont- 
 gomery, aDd Pulaski Counties, and there come upon a class of ores 
 almost identical with those of Lake Superior, in Marquette County, 
 Wisconsin. There is scarcely, by analysis, any difference between them 
 in their constituent elements, and to the eye there is scarcely any appre- 
 ciable difference. I have now in my possession here, received within 
 the last few days, a specimen of magnetic ore from a large vein said to 
 have been found in Montgomery County, convenient to New Eiver, that 
 is so strongly magnetized that if you drop it in a keg of shingle-nails, 
 it will lift a dozen or two of them out. They will hang to it, so rich is 
 it in magnetized metallic iron. The improvement of this water-line up 
 to the mouth of the New River, where it and the Greenbrier come 
 together, must bring the coal of the Kanawha Valley and these rich 
 ores together more nearly than they can be possibly brought by any 
 other system of improvement. It is now, by iron men, demonstrated 
 that you can bring together upon this line, by railway transportation, 
 the materials to make a ton of iron at a cost, including the labor of 
 making the iron, of eighteen dollars per ton, whilst at Allentown, 
 Pa., and other points, and in New York, it costs them twenty-eight 
 and a half to thirty dollars for the materials and the labor to produce 
 a ton of pig-metal. There is a difference of about ten dollars in the 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 451 
 
 cost of producing a ton of pig-metal on this line and in the iron-pro- 
 ducing States north of us. 
 
 Q. Which makes a difference of about 33J per cent. ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think it is now demonstrable that iron can he made 
 as cheaply upon this line as it can be made in Wales, if this water-line 
 is constructed. 
 
 I spent some time — six months — this year in England, and looked 
 into the cost of iron-manufacturing there with a good deal of interest, 
 and found the coal question was one of great concern to them. I believe 
 now the universal conviction in England is that the only protection they 
 have against a continuance of excessive prices in coal is in opening up 
 these West Virginia fields by water communication with the Atlantic, 
 so that coals may be sent into England from West Virginia. That we 
 shall ere long send coals to England and keep down their prices I have 
 no doubt. Their coals went up to fifty-four shillings a ton while I was 
 there, and they are now ruling at nearly forty shillings. At that price, 
 even with reasonable railway-freights upon them, we can send these 
 coals to England, and if we can bring them here by water at half the 
 present cost of railway transportation, as the canal will enable us 
 to do, we will not only be able to supply all the Atlantic naval stations 
 south of this, even as far as Rio Janeiro, with coal from these West 
 Virginia mines, but we can then literally " send coals to Newcastle," 
 and undersell English miners who have to lift from a depth of some- 
 times nearly 3,200 feet by machinery. 
 
 Q. Is the coal formation on the Kanawha and the Big Sandy the same ? 
 
 A. Ves, sir ; it is the same formation. It is the same " field " pre- 
 cisely and substantially the same formation. That field extends as far 
 down as Alabama, where it is finally lost on the Black Warrior River. 
 The character of the coal undergoes changes, however, in different 
 localities. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. What is the average depth of this coal-bed below the surface 1 
 
 A. It is impossible to say that, as it depends on the height of the 
 overlying mountains. 
 
 Q. I mean the cannel-bed that you have described 1 ? 
 
 A. That is far above the water-level. The height of the seam varies 
 with the locality ; at Cannelton they are working a seam near the top 
 of the mountain. 
 
 Q. I am not speaking of the water-level ; I ask yon how far below the 
 surface of the earth 1 
 
 A. That depends on the slope of the mountain. The coal is in nearly 
 horizontal strata, and if you go to the summit of the mountain, or over T 
 lying ridge, it is much farther down to the coal than it would be down 
 anywhere on the mountain-side. It crops out at the side of the mount- 
 ains. You can find coal by shoveling away the earth over the out- 
 crop at the depth of two or three feet, usually. 
 
 Q. I understand that these coals appear on the side of the mountain, 
 then f 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the coal runs nearly horizontally through the mountain. 
 For instance, you will find a seam of coal on one side of the mountain ; 
 then take your barometer and go over the mountain and get the same 
 elevation on the other side, allowing for the dip, and you find the same 
 seam on the other side of the mountain, and thus clearly running 
 through it. 
 
 The distance from the top of the mountain to one seam may be a hun- 
 dred feet; to the next, 200 or 300, and so on ; the whole thickness of the 
 coal upper measures is about 950 feet ; that is, from the lower seam of 
 
452 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 the upper series to tbe topmost seam is about 950 feet. Tbat^ is the 
 thickness of what is called the upper series of *be great Aljegiianycoai 
 formation. There are fourteen known seams m that 950 ieet tnat ; \re 
 call workable seams, of an aggregate thickness of <0 feet, capawe ot 
 turning out 105,000 tons to the acre, where you find them in then ^max- 
 imum thickness. The whole Kanawha district is estimated to contain 
 upon an average about 46,000 tons to the acre, taking the indirierent 
 lauds with the best, but the best of the land will turn out 10a ,000 tons 
 to the acre, as Professor Ansted's measurements within the last fortnight 
 have demonstrated. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. What would you consider thebreadth and length of that coal-basin ? 
 
 A. As I stated a while ago, the cannel-coal basin is sixty miles in 
 length, aud twenty wide. 
 
 Q. But the whole coal-basin ? ,.,-,,„ «™ • 
 
 A. There are 55,000 square miles in the entire field, 16,000 in West 
 Virginia. The great Alleghany coal-field contains 55,000 square miles, 
 and runs through or enters eleven States. 
 
 Q. I did not ask for the whole coal-field. I said that belonging to 
 this particular valley. 
 
 A. I should say that there would be tributary to this work, or to this 
 and the Chesapeake and Ohio Eoad, not less than 2,000 square miles of 
 coal-bearing lands. I take into that estimate the Gauley and the Elk 
 and Coal Eivers and their tributaries. 
 
 Q. But not the Big Sandy ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I do not bring the Big Sandy in. You observe, the ascer- 
 tained extent of the cannel-coal field there is 1,200 square miles from 
 Coal Biver up to the edge of Webster. Outside of that, all these New 
 Kiver coals come in that I have just mentioned, and which you will find 
 described so fully in Mr. Bidgeway's pamphlet. They are outside of the 
 1,200 miles I have spoken of as containing the cannel. If you take the 
 iron found in Giles and Mercer, and the other contiguous counties named, 
 the coal and iron will not be more than seventy or eighty miles apart ; 
 the coal of this basin would reach ironsfound up there. There is iron in 
 this coal-field of which I spoke, but it is not rich enough to work by 
 itself, though perhaps useful to mix with richer ores found east of it. 
 
 Adjourned. 
 
 Charlestown, West Virginia, 
 
 Friday, October 24, 1873. 
 
 The committee met at 5 p. m. 
 
 Examination of Professor David T. Ansted. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Will you be kind enough to state to the committee what has 
 been your occupation and business for the last few years 1 
 
 Answer. I have been occupied in practicing engineering as connected 
 with geology for the last twenty-eight years. I have been accustomed 
 to visit different coal-fields, and iron-fields especially, in all parts of 
 Europe I may say, and in some parts of Asia and America I have 
 seen most of the important coal and iron fields in the world 
 
 Q. State the result of your observations on this proposed water-line 
 from here to Bichmond as to its mineral wealth. 
 
 A. I find on the line of this proposed communication one of thn most 
 remarkable iron-fields that exists in any part of the world as atml™ 
 known. It contains every variety of the most valuable ores, and these 
 
TRANSPORT ATION TO THE SEABOARD. 453 
 
 ores are distributed in such a manner as to be more accessible than, I 
 think, in any other districts. 
 
 These ores extend over a wide range of country, ranging from east to 
 west, intersected nearly at right angles by the railroad. They include 
 the most valuable of all the known iron ores — magnetic oxide. They 
 include a very large quantity of the red hematites, a very large quantity 
 of the peculiar ore known here as the fossil-ore, which is exceedingly 
 valuable for iron making ; a very large quantity of brown hematite, and 
 I believe other ores, which I have not, however, seen in very great abun- 
 dance. But those are quite sufficient to justify what I have said with 
 regard to the value of the district for iron production. 
 
 Q. Please give us a general idea of the location of that district. 
 
 A. These iron ores exist in a belt beginning, I believe, about the posi- 
 tion of Charlottesville, or perhaps a little to the east of that, on the line, 
 and they terminate, so far as I know, a little on the western side of 
 Staunton. Within that belt they occur, and crossing the rail nearly at 
 right angles, at intervals, certain groups of the ores being found on the 
 eastern side of the Blue Bidge, and others between the Blue Bidge and 
 the Alleghanies. That is the condition of the country with regard to 
 iron as at present known. 
 
 With regard to coal, the most important of the American coal fields 
 crosses the line of the railway, the railway intersecting it nearly at right 
 angles, the lowest part of the coal coming in a little to the west of the 
 Alleghanies, the best part of the coal between about Hawk's Nest, or a 
 little on the east of that, and where we now are, and throughout the 
 whole of this belt the coal exists under circumstances the most favor- 
 able. 
 
 There are, I think, about twenty distinctly workable seams in coal in 
 the middle of the district, or what I regard as the middle of the whole 
 series of the coal-bearing beds. These middle beds are workable, all of 
 them, above the water-line. They lie almost horizontally, and are capa- 
 ble of being worked at a cheaper rate than any coals which exist on a 
 large scale in any part of Europe. They include bend's of coal of vari- 
 ous thickness, none extremely thick, but all thick enough to be worked 
 in the most effective manner without any waste. 
 
 They are capable of being reached by very simple processes and car- 
 ried down into the route of the rail where the river intersects them 
 into valleys which are more or less accessible conveniently by tram- 
 roads from the rail. Of course, that would be on the side on which the 
 railway lies. On the other side of the river they are also accessible, 
 and might be, as they are in the neighborhood of this place, carried 
 across the river by a ferry. There is no practical difficulty in that. 
 There is no reason whatever why the coal throughout the whole of this 
 district should not be obtained at a cheaper rate than it is now being 
 got in any of the mines in Europe, and 1 believe I may say in any of 
 the mines of America. There is practically no difficulty whatever; 
 there is no water — no power required to lift anything. All that has to 
 be done is to lay the coal open . in a proper manner, let the coal be 
 brought out and be put upon the cars for the market. 
 
 The quantity that could be mined is very large indeed. The main 
 valley of the Kanawha is a deep cut in the great deposit of the carbon- 
 iferous beds, and this great cut is intersected at intervals by cross-cuts, 
 which afterward, almost without exception, become more or less paral- 
 lel with the main line of the valley. In that way the coal is cut out 
 into blocks of convenient size, accessible generally from two or three 
 sides, and that facilitates the getting to a very unusual extent. 
 
 In a rough way, I can say that the average quantity of coal which 
 
454 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 would be obtained on every acre of these coal-lands would be about fifty 
 thousand tons. That would be the quantity of coal which might be 
 expected to be got, deducting a percentage for waste and accident and 
 what are called courses in the coal, for unprofitable parts. Forty thou- 
 sand tons per acre would not be at all an unreasonable estimate. 
 
 The total acreage within range of the Kanawha Eiver I cannot esti- 
 mate from memory. I could tell by looking at a reasonable map of the 
 country, and it could be easily determined. I cannot give it exactly. I 
 dare say some person knowing the district better would be able to in- 
 form you upon that point, but it would be very easy to show that .the 
 quantity of available coal in the district is so very large that practically 
 for a thousand years to come it may be regarded as unlimited. 
 
 The quantity of coal that will be required in America within a com- 
 paratively short time must amount, of course, to millions of tons per 
 annum. I believe at present the quantity is somewhere about twenty 
 millions. In England we are now mining about a hundred and twenty 
 millions of tons per annum, and the manufacturing of iron would in- 
 crease the consumption of coal very largely, indeed, directly by the 
 coal that would be required to make the iron, and indirectly by the large 
 quantity of coal required for the manufactures which would be brought 
 into use by the introduction of iron on a larger scale. 
 
 There can be no doubt whatever that the general coal-fields west of 
 the Alleghanies will have to supply all the manufacturing parts of 
 America before very long. 
 
 I do not mean to limit to the Kanawha Eiver, but the western coal- 
 field of the Alleghanies is the great coal-field of America, and the 
 Kanawha gives, I may say, the very best means of access to the coal- 
 field as it exists. 
 
 It is also accessible to the South, and has been used to a great ex- 
 tent in the North, but the Kanawha is far better situated for working 
 the coal than any of the places in the North, and, I believe, than any 
 of those to the South. 
 
 Up to the last year there were practically no means of escape for this 
 coal either east or west. Eastward it was cut off entirely by the inac- 
 cessible roads across the mountains. 
 
 Westward, the only chance of conveyance was the Kanawha Eiver. 
 The Kanawha Eiver is capable, beyond all doubt, of being made navi- 
 gable, and that at comparatively small expense, but at present the navi- 
 gation is interrupted by numerous shoals, and even when the Ohio is 
 leached the shoals are so troublesome that, for two months in the year, 
 I believe, there is no certainty of getting coal to market. Now, coal is 
 a thing that will not bear interruption. It has to be got regularly. A 
 certain staff of miners has to be kept constantly working. There is no 
 means of accumulating coal on the ground : it must be sent off, and if 
 it cannotbe done regularly and steadily, the supply will be limited to 
 the quantity which can be so sent off regularly. It is nearly impossible 
 to continue mining coal on a large scale without a regular market, and 
 a regular and certain means of getting to market. For that reason good 
 means of communication has been and must continue to be looked for. 
 Now that the railway has been constructed, the iron can be brought to 
 the coal, where it is desirable, and the coal can be carried to the iron, 
 and by means of the railway, if the rates are such as to make it satis- 
 factory, there is no doubt that a vast development will take place. But 
 the railways canuot certainly carry the quantity of coal that is required, 
 and the quantity of iron that will be required to communicate between 
 the East and the West. It will be absolutely necessary that thtfre 
 should be other means of conveyance, and of all the means of convey- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 455 
 
 ance for raw material, or minerals, such as coal and iron ore, nothing 
 can equal water. It must be very much the cheapest, aud with a con- 
 tinuous water communication it is absolutely certain. Therefore, for 
 these reasons, the canal communication from East to West seems to me 
 to be an absolute necessity for this district. 
 
 I cannot suppose that the coal-field can be properly developed, or that 
 the iron-field can be properly opened and worked, without such water 
 communication being completed. I have looked at the statements 
 which have been made with regard to the line of the canal, and from 
 what I know of the country and of the rivers, the James River, as it 
 ■exists, the Kanawha as it exists, and the Ohio as it exists, and the pos- 
 sibilities of getting through the mountains, it appears to me that there 
 is nothing which ought to interfere with the formation of a continuous 
 line of water communication from East to West. The evidence that 
 has been given on the subject by Mr. Ellett would be sufficient, in any 
 •country where engineering is known, to satisfy any one upon that point. 
 Mr. Ellet's name is so well known all through the engineering world 
 that his opinion upon a subject of that sort is almost sufficient. 
 
 But, there is not only his evidence, but the evidence of a number of 
 other able engineers who have evidently gone into the matter very care- 
 fully, and who have satisfied themselves that the communication is not 
 only possible, but economically possible. 
 
 With regard to the quantity of minerals which would have to be car- 
 ried over such lines of water communication, I can safely say, from my 
 knowledge of the subject in various ways, that it would be, alone, suffi- 
 cient to justify the construction of the canal, at the cost at which it has 
 been placed. 
 
 Q. What have you to say as to the conditions for economical mining 
 of the iron ores ? 
 
 A. With regard to the mining of the iron ores, that can be done at a 
 cost below the price of mining similar ores in any part of the world 
 which I have ever visited. The ridges of iron ore stand up out of the 
 ground in the eastern part of Virginia just as this paper [indicating] 
 lies above the table, and they form hills. They have, in fact, kept up 
 hills while the country around has been removed, and all that has to be 
 done is to run a tunnel into the hill-side, tap the lode as it comes down, 
 and remove it from below, and bring it down. The quantity of ore that 
 exists in that way, which I have seen, is very large indeed, and the quan- 
 tity that exists in different parts of the country, which I have not seen, I 
 have every reason to suppose is enormously larger. The mining for 
 iron in tli at district could be done at the very smallest possible cost. 
 It has the greatest advantages of position, and there is no difficulty 
 whatever in moving it and carrying to the nearest railway or river. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. How would the cost in this region compare with the cost of.the 
 manufacturing of iron abroad ? 
 
 A. The cost of the manufacturing of the best qualities of iron which 
 ought to be made from ores of such very high values would not be much 
 more than one-half at the present prices of labor Lere. The actual cost 
 of making Bessemer steel, for instance, would be considered below half 
 the cost in any part of England at the present time. 
 
 Q. You spoke of forty or fifty thousand tons of coal per acre ; was 
 that above or below water-level? 
 
 A. Above. 
 
 Q. How does that compare in quantity as we'll as quality with the 
 English coal ? 
 
456 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. There are 110 workable coal-fields of the ordinary kind in which' 
 that could be done without going to a very much greater depth than here,, 
 and the total thickness of seams in the English coal-fields in any one 
 district is not so great as it is here. 
 
 In England the beds are very much inclined, and though there are 
 more workable seams throughout the coal-field than here, they do not 
 exist in the same locality, and they could not be mined in the same 
 place. More coal could be mined here from an acre of land than, I think, 
 in any coal-field that I can remember in England. 
 
 There are some cases in France and some elsewhere of exceedingly 
 thick beds, but they are always local ; not more than a few square 
 miles at the most. Here the extent of the coal field involves a great 
 many thousand square miles. 
 Q. How is it as to quality ? 
 
 A. The quality of the coal is.quite unexceptionable. There are three 
 kinds. The kind which is called bituminous is remarkably free from 
 any troublesome ash. It has a certain quantity of ash, and perhaps a 
 little more than the most of the English coals, but it is capable of being 
 coked, I am quite sure. I have not seen it made, but am informed it 
 has been, and have no reason to doubt it. In fact, I am quite satisfied 
 from the quality of the coal that it must make a very good coke. There 
 is a large quantity of that. That is the largest quantity. It is a tender 
 coal, which would make it desirable that it could be coked. 
 
 Besides that, there are seams of splint-coal, a hard coal, very valuable 
 for household purposes, and valuable also in the manufacture of iron, 
 because it is so singularly free from all those things which are injurious 
 in the making of iron. It is a coal, I believe I may say, that is used at 
 this moment in furnaces in Eastern Virginia which have been erected 
 for charcoal-iron, and it has been used to replace the charcoal, and the 
 iron made from it has been found just as good as the iron made with 
 charcoal before. It is a perfectly good coal, used in the furnaces raw 
 for the making of the best qualities of pig-iron. 
 
 -There is another, called cannel-coal, which is exceedingly valuable. 
 The quantity of that coal is uncertain, because it is a coal which passes 
 from cannel into another state, of splint, perhaps, in the same bed. It 
 is not continuous, but is found in large quantities in thick beds, and is 
 the most valuable of coal for making gas. It is sent to all large towns r 
 and 1 have no doubt that ultimately the great consumption of it will be 
 in the large cities for the manufacture of gas. It has a very high gas- 
 producing power — a very high illuminating power. 
 
 Q. How does it compare with the Albert ? 
 
 A. The Albert is hardly to be called a coal. It is a mineral which 
 consists almost entirely of bitumen in a peculiar state. The value of 
 the Albert is more for enriching than producing, perhaps. It enriches 
 coal-gas very much indeed. The quantity of Albert is exceedingly 
 uncertain. It is difficult to get it. It is only mined in one or two local- 
 ities in Canada. I do not think it can ever come into the market in 
 sufficient quantities to supply the great gas-furnaces throughout the 
 country. Nothing can interfere with the consumption of cannel on a 
 large scale. 
 
 Q. How does it compare with your best English coals for gas 1 
 
 A. It is quite equal, and I should think the better qualities of it are 
 superior to our qualities of coal, say the Wigan cannel, which has always 
 been regarded as the most useful and available of the cannel-coals which 
 have been exported. There is one coal, which is hardly a coal either, 
 found in Scotland, called the Bog Head, a sort of shale, containing an 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 457 
 
 enormous quantity of gas, which yields, perhaps, a thousand cubic feet 
 of gas per ton more than any other cannel known. That is the only ex- 
 ception. This would compete, I think, with the Wigan coal, which has 
 been used generally, I think, in New York and in large cities on the 
 coast. 
 
 Q. I understood you that it ought to be x>roduced and got to the sea- 
 shore as cheap as any English coal on board at England "? 
 
 A. It certainly could be transported to any place on the eastern coast 
 on terms much more favorable than any English coal at the present 
 time. There is no doubt whatever about that. The cost of getting the 
 coal, as it has been found by experience by the companies who have sold* 
 coal, is, in my opinion, a great deal too high. It has cost a great deal 
 more than it ought to cost. I do not at a!l see why this coal should not 
 be produced upon much easier terms, and put into the cars at a very 
 much lower rate, than it has ever yet been. No coal cutting machinery 
 has ever Leen used. The whole of the coal is not used. There is a great 
 deal of waste. Nothing has been done to utilize the small coal. Alto- 
 gether there has been a. very considerable extravagance in the mining 
 and working of it. 
 
 Q. What is the cost on the cars here now ? 
 
 A. Mr. Edwards can tell you that better than I can. It is from his 
 mine, I think, that the principal quantity has been sent, and perhaps it 
 would be better that I should refer it to him. I should only, perhaps, 
 tell you his figures. 
 
 By Mr. CONEXING : 
 Q. Whence comes the name cannel, as applied to coal f 
 A. That is not altogether agreed upon. Some people think it is de- 
 rived from candle, because if you take a piece of cannel-coal in your 
 hand and put it to a light it will flame and burn like a torch. Others 
 suppose that some local name has been the origin. 
 
 Q. It is applied to Scotch coal, English coal, American coal, and any 
 other coal that resembles it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it is applied to a different quality of coal. It has a very 
 different surface from any other. It does not soil the hands, and has 
 a totally different appearance. It is a very tough coal when it is broken, 
 and it very often has a dull glimmer, which is quite unlike that of ordi- 
 nary coal. No one can mistake it. 
 Q. Is the water-line the best line of these coal-beds 1 
 A. O, no. In some places there is no doubt the coal will have to be 
 worked ultimately below the surface, but, generally speaking, along 
 this valley a large proportion of the coal could be got from the water- 
 line. I do not think it would make much difference, even if it had to be 
 sunk for, but, practically, for a very long time to come it will not be 
 necessary to think of sinking for these coals. Where we now are the 
 principal coals would, no doubt, be got by sinking. But a very little 
 way up the stream, and for a longdistance northeast and southwest, tte 
 coal would be got in hills and hill-sides. 
 
 By Mr. NORWOOD : 
 
 Q. You gave the geographical location of that iron-bed. You state 
 it extended where? 
 
 A. It occupies the country partly between the Alleghany and fhe Blue 
 Bidge. on the eastern side, and partly on the eastern side of the Blue 
 Bidge itself; on both sides of the Blue Eidge. It runs northeast and 
 southwest. 
 
 Q. Can you state the extent of that bed in miles? 
 
458 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOAED. 
 
 A. It runs, 1 think, from a hundred miles, or more, north on the Ches- 
 apeake and Ohio Bailway, and it runs down south to Alabama. You 
 know the distance in miles better than I do. It runs to the north of 
 Alabama. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. That is the iron I 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 „ Q. Does that iron-bed extend through Georgia ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Continuously? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it is continuous. 
 
 Q. At Mr. Conkling's suggestion I will ask you what is the extent of 
 miles of this coal-bed of which you have been speaking? 
 
 A. That extends from the northern coal-fields near Cumberland, goes 
 through the whole of Virginia, the western side of the Alleghanies, and 
 into Tennessee, and, I think, a little below that. I cannot tell the num- 
 ber of miles, but the position of the coal has been marked on geological 
 maps and can be very easily referred to. 
 
 Q. You have given the length ; can you give the average width of the 
 bed? 
 
 A. The width of the available coal I can state pretty nearly. If you 
 will take a map and measure from McKendree's Station, on the Chesa- 
 peake and Ohio line, and run in a direct line toward the northwest, and 
 terminating in a line running through where we are now, and run 
 through Charlestown, parallel to the Alleghany chain, that would mark 
 it. It runs nearly parallel to the Appalachian chain. It runs parallel 
 to that, and extends not quite so far as the Ohio ; it is but forty miles 
 on this side of the Ohio Biver. Beyond that I am not aware of there 
 being any coal of any importance. I believe there is a thin seam, but 
 I am informed they sunk eleven hundred feet in Huntington and got 
 none. 
 
 Q. Please state the number of strata of this coal, and, as well as ascer- 
 tained, the average depth of each stratum, and the location of these 
 strata from the surface of the nethermost one. 
 
 A. I find in the eastern part of the district, where the largest number 
 of seams which I know of exist, that there are fourteen seams, all of 
 them probably workable. They are not all clearly proved, but I have 
 reason to suppose that there are fourteen workable seams. 
 
 Q. That answers the first branch of my question. The second was 
 the average depth of each strata. 
 
 Q. I have the details here. I cannot state the exact thickness, but 
 when I say a workable seam I mean something more than 30 inches. 
 That would be situated 10 feet below a particular bend of silica, a bend 
 that is found throughout this country that is known as the flint-ledge, 
 and that is a sort of point of departure for estimating the depth of the 
 coal. I might say that above the flint-ledge there are two, or three, or 
 four seams, each of them workable, but not developed in that district, 
 and not very well known. Then below the flint-ledge there come in 
 these. I have mentioned the cannel 10 feet below. There is a bed of 
 splint and cannel 8 feet thick and 50 feet below. I do not mean 50 feet 
 below the 10 feet, but 50 feet below the flint-ledge. Then there is a 
 crop of coal, probably bituminous, 140 feet below the flint-ledge. There 
 is another crop at 160 feet. There is a mixed seam, that is a seam con- 
 taining some splint, .some cannel, and some bituminous, 7 feet thick of 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE . SEABOARD. 4L9 
 
 coal, altogether 220 feet below. There is also a Lend, which I am in- 
 formed is splint, and I know it is coal, about 3U0 feet below the flint 
 ledge. Next to that is a cannel-seam, of which I do not know tbc 
 thickness, 380 feet below. Next to that there is a seam, of which I only 
 know that it exists, 500 feet below. Below that is a bituminous coal, 7 
 feet thick, 050 feet below. Below that there is a four-foot seam, 075 
 feet below. Below that there is a seam, the quality of which I do not 
 know, 750 feet. Below that there is another seam of 700 feet ; and be- 
 low that is a good seam of splint and bituminous at 870 feet ; and below 
 that is a seam 1,010 feet below the flint-ledge. Those are on the hill, 
 just in the neighborhood of Hawk's Nest, a station on this line, being 
 the first station at which the coal is seen on a very large scale. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. What is the level of the flint-ledge as compared -with the river ? 
 
 A. The flint-ledge is there 1,670 feet above the rail. The rail, if I re- 
 member right, is about thirty feet, or something like that, or not so 
 much, above the ordinary run of the water in the New Biver, but I think 
 at that point the river is 1,180 feet above the sea. I am not quite sure 
 about these figures", however. 
 
 Below that, again, there are three seams of bituminous coal, all 
 fair coal, but none of them other than bituminous coal, that are opened 
 in some places on the eastern side, and that belong to the lower series. 
 These others all belong to what geologists call the middle series. The 
 other three that I mentioned, above the flint-ledge, belong to the upper 
 series. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Do I understand you to say that, except where the mountains 
 incline, there is a continuous layer of this coal throughout the extent, 
 uortheast and southwest, which you have mentioned % 
 
 A. Yes, sir; and very nearly horizontal. There is a little irregularity. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Do you know about the Ohio and the Pittsburgh coals % 
 
 A. The Ohio and the Pittsburgh coals belong to a different part of 
 the coal series here. They are not far removed from this coal-field, but 
 they are coals existing in a very different state; they are more or less 
 anthracite, but those in Maryland, the Cumberland coals, belong to this 
 part of the series. They form a part of the great western Appalachian 
 coal-field. 
 
 Q. Have you been over the Ohio coal-fields 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but not at this time. I examined them when I was here 
 a good many years ago. 
 
 Q. Is it the same field? 
 
 A. It is part of the same field, developed in rather a different manner. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 Q. What kind of coal is that lying in this grate ? 
 A. That would be most likely the bituminous coal. 
 Q. Not the cannel-coal ? 
 
 A. O, no; you would recognize the cannel-coal by its blaze. It 
 would blaze up with a great amount of smoke and flame. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 Q. Are these statements made upon personal observation and exam- 
 ination, or upon your theoretical information as a geologist 1 
 
 A. These are purely the result of personal observation. All that I 
 
460 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 have stated to you I think I may say I know of my own personal knowl- 
 edge. With regard to some of the details, as to the divisions of the 
 coal-fields by American geologists, that, of course, is not personal, but 
 all that I have stated as facts are statements from my own personal 
 knowledge. 
 
 Q. The point at which I directed the question was the statements 
 which you have made as to the existence, first of these coal-fields in 
 these lengthened beds of the different strata which you have mentioned, 
 and the depth of these strata, and the character of the coal. 
 A. Those are personal observations. 
 
 Q. Your statements, then, are founded upon personal observation I 
 A. Strictly. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Have you found any other valuable minerals on this line ? 
 A. Immediately in this neighborhood is a very remarkable deposit of 
 salt, obtained from brine-springs, and that no doubt extends for some 
 distance. I believe in almost every part of the district around for a 
 considerable distance anything like deep borings will find brine-springs. 
 The brine-springs are here particularly valuable in consequence of the 
 absence of sulphates from them. They are valuable for making salt, 
 which is used for curing purposes, and for general purposes in the 
 West, and I believe this salt is equal to the best known in the market 
 for those purposes. At present nothing has been done with those brine- 
 springs but to make salt from them, and I believe a certain quantity of 
 bromine, but they are admirably adapted for a manufacture of a differ- 
 ent kind altogether, of what is called soda ash. There is no doubt 
 whatever but that this would be as good a position for the manufacture 
 of soda ash as any place could be. That has never been introduced 
 into the United States at all, I believe, or rather has been tried and 
 has failed in two or three places, owing to a distance from fuel, and par- 
 ticularly the circumstance of the deposit. That is one mineral which 
 certainly would have a very important bearing in the future develop- 
 ment of this district. 
 
 By Mr. NORWOOD : 
 
 Q. Did you see any marks of the valuable metals ? 
 
 A. In the immediate neighborhood of the railway I do not know of the 
 existence of any quantity of any of the valuable metals. I have seen 
 specimens of copper, but there is no such quantity of it as would justify 
 the expectation that there would be any important mining, nor does 
 the geological formation indicate that anything of the kind would be 
 probable. Coal, iron, and salt are the staple productions. 
 
 In Eastern Virginia, not very far from the railroad, comes in a remark- 
 able series of veins containing gold; in Buckingham County and there- 
 abouts I visited those. They have been worked. I visited them when I was 
 in this country sixteen or seventeen years ago, and I think it is very 
 likely they may lead to some important result. Farther south there 
 are minerals, but they would not affect this line of communication that 
 I know of. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Tou spoke a moment ago of the Cumberland coal-field or the 
 Maryland coal-field ; have you ever examined that ? 
 
 A. I did examine it when I was in this country before. I have not 
 been over it this time. I know of it generally. That contains, I think, 
 chiefly the bituminous coal. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 461 
 
 Q. Have you examined the Valley Eiver, or the coals in the neigh- 
 borhood of Clarkesburgh ? 
 A. No, sir ; I have not examined them. 
 
 Charleston, October :»5, 1S73. 
 
 Sir : In my statement made yesterday to your committee I omitted to point out 
 that a very important market for steam-coal for the use of steamers generally, and 
 especially for the steam-navy of the United States, might be established at Norfolk if 
 the West Virginia splint-coal can be carried to the Atlantic coast by canal at moderate 
 freights. The -splint-coal being unusually hard and capable of resisting exposure to 
 ■weather without injury "would be admirably adapted to supply the depots of the Eng- 
 lish West Indian mail-packet service at St. Thomas and those of the English fleet at 
 Jamaica and other islands, and would certainly be preferred in the various South 
 American ports. It would supersede everything but the very costly steam-coals of 
 the best quality from Wales if the price would at all justify the change. 
 
 The price of the best Western Virginia coals, if they can be sent by water direct to a 
 shipping-place on the Atlantic, would, beyond all doubt, enable the coal-owner to meet 
 all foreign competitors in this market, and, combined with the quality, would secure a 
 permanent demand on the largest scale. The freights proposed to .be charged by the 
 Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad, on the other hand, would altogether prevent the open- 
 ing of this market. 
 
 I may add that, judging from observation, from analysis, and from reports of actual 
 experiment, no better coal than the splint-coal in question exists in America, and cer- 
 tainly none can exist under circumstances more favorable for rapid and economical 
 production. 
 
 I have the honor to be, with great respect, your faithful servant, 
 
 D. T. ANSTED. 
 
 The Hon. Senator Wisdom, 
 
 Chairman of the Senate Committee on Transportation. 
 
 Examination of Mr. William H. Edwards, of Coalsburgh, West 
 Virginia. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. What is your business ? 
 
 Answer. I am president of the Ohio and Kanawha Coal Company, 
 located at Coalsburg, in this county. 
 
 Q. If you have any information which you may think of value in con- 
 nection with this proposed work, we should be glad to have you state it. 
 
 A. We have been engaged in mining for the last ten years, having 
 commenced in 1864, and the greater part of that period we have been 
 shipping coal by water to Cincinnati. For the last year and a half, 
 since the completion of the railway, we have forwarded all our coal by 
 rail to Huntington, and thence by water to Cincinnati. We have sent 
 it over the rail east toward Richmond. 
 
 Q. What difficulties have you encountered heretofore in shipping 
 your coal down the river ? 
 
 A. The difficulty has been the state of navigation of this river. 
 When we commenced in 1864 it was understood that the river was to 
 be immediately improved, else we never should have commenced min- 
 ing as we did ; but up to this day the navigation has never been such 
 from our part of the river as to make profitable mining possible. When 
 there is plenty of water in the spring it is very easy to ship, but the 
 last six months of the year we lose fully as much or more than we make 
 in the first six months, so that it has been an up-hill business from the 
 start, owing to these shoals and the long periods of low water which we 
 have. 
 
 Q. What are the charges per ton from your place to Huntington by 
 rail ? 
 
 A. By rail the minimum price is 75 cents per ton. 
 
 Q. What is the maximum ? 
 
462 . TRANSPORTATION- TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. It depends altogether upon the price of coal in Cincinnati. The 
 maximum may go on coal as high as 15 cents in Cincinnati. Generally 
 the price of coal averages about 12 cents. 
 
 Q. You have a sliding scale of prices? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; according to the price the coal is sold at. The minimum 
 rate is 75 cents a ton, and the maximum is as high as a dollar and nine 
 cents. 
 
 Q. What are the rates eastward 1 
 
 A. The rates east are rather higher than that. They calculate en- 
 tirely by the short ton, a cent and a quarter a ton a mile. Add an 
 eighth to that cent and a quarter and it would be very nearly a cent 
 and a half per ton per mile to Eichmond. But to points this side of 
 Eichmond it is considerably higher, and in some cases nearly double 
 They are extravagantly high, we think. 
 
 Q. Do you mean higher per mile ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. For instance, the rate to Eichmond on a car-load, or a 
 ten-ton car of coal is $45 ; to Staunton it is $37.20. Staunton is about 
 half way. It is higher in proportion at every point this side of Eich- 
 mond. 
 
 Q. Has there been any considerable development of these coal-fields 
 here? 
 
 A. No, sir ; not very much. There have been perhaps four or five 
 companies mining. I suppose we have mined rather more per year than 
 any other company. We have mined about fifty thousand tons pei 
 annum — from forty to fifty thousand tons. The trouble has been prin- 
 cipally the difficulty of getting it away. The most of that coal is mined 
 in the first half of the year. In the second half of the year we scarcely 
 do one month's business. 
 
 Q. What is the price of coal at which you sell it at the mines ? 
 
 A. We sell coal at the mines to all customers at 8 cents a bushel, or 
 $2 a short ton. 
 
 Q. What kind of coal is that ? 
 
 A. We are mining splint-coal. It is a very hard coal aud bears 
 transportation very well. It is admirable coal for locomotives and for 
 smelting iron, for grate purposes, &c. It is very free from all impuri- 
 ties. 
 
 Q. What do you regard as necessary in order to the full development 
 of this great coal region % 
 
 A. Mines never will be opened here, and we never shall become a 
 mining people unless the rates are much lower East, We come in com- 
 petition at Eichmond directly with Clover Hill and other coals mined in 
 that neighborhood. They are sold at 50 cents a ton lower than we can 
 possibly put our coal into Eichmond at the present rates. If we could 
 introduce our coal at the same rate, I have no doubt that we could sup- 
 ply Eichmond, as our coal is superior. 
 
 Q. Why is it that so large a quantity of coal is shipped from Pitts- 
 burgh down the Ohio Eiver, and yet you find so much difficulty in get- 
 ting down there to Cincinnati from here ? 
 
 A. I do not find any difficulty in getting down the Ohio when we 
 strike it. Our company ship coal from the 1st of February up to the 
 1st of August, regularly. We ship coal regularly from Huntington to 
 Cincinnati. I suppose there was not a week passed but what it was 
 taken down. On this river it is impossible. Part of the spring there 
 is water, but at other times we are dependent on the swell in the river, 
 coming once a month, perhaps. We have a great advantage over Pitts- 
 burgh when we strike the Kanawha. This river has not water enough 
 to own ship coal from any points on it. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 463 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. What is the relative value iu Cincinnati of your cOal and the Pitts- 
 burgh coal ? 
 
 A. It stands about the same. It is used for gas. It will often bring 
 a high price when coal is very high. But when coals are only a mod- 
 erate price, ours bring the same as Pittsburgh coal. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. How much does it cost you to transport coal to Cincinnati from 
 your place when the water on both rivers is at a good stage ? 
 
 A. In counting the cost of taking coal down you must count tbc cost 
 of bringing the boat back. Then it is 50 cents a ton. 
 
 Q. Is that a good business? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is a good business to carry coal on that time. Iu 
 fact our towing was done formerly under that sort of contract. 
 
 Q. It is a good business for the carrier ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; because tow-boats make that sort of contract with the 
 coal-mines. 
 
 Q. If the river were in good condition at all times, so that the barges 
 could be towed by the tugs.all the year round, it would be an easy thing 
 to transport coal to Cincinnati at 50 cents a ton ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; adding the tolls. 
 
 Q. How much to Saint Louis? 
 
 A. I am unable to answer that. We have never shipped there. 
 
 Q. How as to Louisville? 
 
 A. that would be about one-third more than to Cincinnati. We have 
 had very little experience in that way. Our coal has almost all gone to 
 Cincinnati. 
 
 Q. You say it would cost from seventy-five cents to a dollar and nine 
 cents to ship to Huntington. How much would it cost to load from the 
 cars at Huntington and ship to Cincinnati ? 
 
 A. It costs a cent to ship from Huntington to Cincinnati, or 25 cents 
 a ton to handle and ship, and fetch the boat back. It is hardly fair to 
 speak of it as a fair task, because the loading-works there were con- 
 structed by the railway, and they ate very awkward, but it costs about 
 one-quarter of a cent a bushel to load the coal at Huntington in addition 
 to the one cent. 
 
 Q. What is the cost of transporting coal from above Ironton to Cin- 
 cinnati ? 
 
 A. It would be just about the same as it would from Huntington. 
 The difference of a few miles is nothing to a tow-boat. 
 
 Q. Then the cost of cOal in Cincinnati, if the river was in a good stage 
 during all the navigable portions of the year, would be about $2.50 a 
 ton, allowing you $2? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If the river was in a navigable stage during the navigable portion 
 of the year, what could you deliver coal on an average for at your place ? 
 
 A. Do you mean to afford a reasonable profit, or do you want the 
 actnal cost ? 
 
 Q. To afford you a reasonable profit. 
 
 A. I should consider 8 cents a bushel, or $2 a short ton, as a fair 
 price for coal put on the boats. 
 
 Q. Could you not do it for less ? 
 
 A. We could, but I am estimating a reasonable profit. It would not 
 cost over 6 cents a bushel to put it on the boat, and it might perhaps 
 be done for 5J cents. 
 
464 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Q. Then you would allow 2 cents ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we must have 2 cents for any profit. There are working 
 expenses independent of what we pay those persons actually connected 
 with the mining. 
 
 Q. Is half a cent a bushel considered a very good profit to the owner 
 of a coal-mine ? 
 
 A. If you mean the land, the royalty, it is. 
 
 Q. What is the other cent and a naif made up of 1 ? 
 
 A. Do you mean as to expenses ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. 
 
 A. We pay, upon an average, 4 cents a bushel for mining coal. 
 We employ a large force of haulers, men who let the coal down the hill, 
 and men who load it in the boats, and caulkers to take care of the boats, 
 and carpenters to do all sorts of odd jobs. When a mine employs one 
 hundred and twenty miners, there are about seventy-fi^e men employed 
 about other work. There are several men in the mine laying track. 
 We have miles of track in our mine laid by track-layers, receiving from 
 $2.50 to $3 per day ; therefore, this other cent and a half, or even two 
 cents, must go to cover that sort of expense. That is an element of 
 cost. The cost of the coal in the boat is. 6 cents a bushel ; but we 
 must have 8 cents to make it worth while to employ our capital. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Then you could deliver it, at a fair stage of water, at $2.50 a ton 
 to Cincinnati in the boat. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the fair average of value of coal in Cincinnati on the 
 boat, taking the year around 1 
 
 A. The average value, year by year, has been 14 or 13 cents. 
 
 Q. Make the computation by the ton, if you please. 
 
 A. That would be twenty-eight bushels to the ton. Everything goes 
 by bushels in this country. I will tell you by the ton in a moment. It 
 would be $3.25, in Cincinnati, by the ton. 
 
 Q. That, you think, is about the average 1 
 
 A. That is about the average price, in Cincinnati, one year with 
 another. 
 
 Q. Then, with proper improvements in the river, you think you could 
 deliver coal about one-third less ? 
 
 A. Undoubtedly, if the river was in good condition, coal could be 
 delivered in Cincinnati at between 10 and 11 cents. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. What vehicles do you ship on this river ? 
 
 A. We use barges and flat-boats ; all built on the same principle, 
 except the barge, which is more substantial than the flat-boats. They 
 are about 120 feet long, 22 feet wide, and 6 feet deep, and those boats 
 will carry about four hundred tons of coal. 
 
 Q. Drawing how much water? 
 
 A. Six feet deep ; we load four and a half feet, about four hundred 
 tons of coal. 
 
 Q. Where, in starting from your works, do you strike the first bar ! 
 
 A. Within a half mile of the works at Cabin Creek Shoal. 
 
 Q. How much water is there on that shoal in an ordinary stage of 
 low water ? 
 
 A. That has been partly cut down, but I suppose before this rise 
 took place there would hardly be 15 or 20 inches of water. 
 
 Q. What is the nature of that shoal ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 465 
 
 A. It is loose cobble-stone, and not sand. It can all be picked up bj 
 a dredging-boat. There is no stratified rock. 
 
 Q. Where do you come to the next shoal ? 
 
 A. Four miles below, of just about the same character. 
 
 Q. And of about the same depth of water 1 
 
 A. Tes, sir ; about the same thing. Those are the only shoals be- 
 tween our place and Charlestown. 
 
 Q. And below Charlestown how many are there ? 
 
 A. Below Charlestown there must be about seven, of which three 
 or four of them are within a short distance of this town. 
 
 Q. Are any of them stratified rocks ? 
 
 A. I do not think any of them are. 
 
 Q. But all stone ? 
 
 A. Wherever a creek comes in here there is a pool above the creek 
 and a dam at the mouth, and that makes the shoal, so that we have 
 always deep water above. 
 
 Q. Apart from those shoals, seven or eight below here and three or 
 four above, what is the depth of water, as a rule, in low water? 
 
 A. At Coalsburgh we have a pool three-fourths of a mile long and at 
 every low water it must be 9 feet deep. There is a deep pool before. 
 Down the river, as you get to the mouth of the Ohio,. it is drained off 
 .a good deal, and there is the lowest water. 
 
 Q. Having removed these shoals, what would be the point of lowest 
 water, and how shoal would it be ? 
 
 A. These shoals, as I understand it, never would be removed entirely. 
 They would be cut through. They are deep enough. 
 
 Q. Eliminating them from the channel, how much depth of channel 
 would you have in the lowest place, apart from these shoals ? 
 
 A. With all the upper part of the river, from our place down for 
 twenty or twenty-five miles, so far as I know, I should suppose there 
 would be at least 78 feet of water after giving us a good cut through the 
 shoals. 
 
 Q. In the shoalest places ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is the cutting of those shoals an expensive work 1 
 
 A. No, sir, it is not. 
 
 Q. Very inexpensive, I should think. 
 
 A. A great deal can be done with not much money and always has 
 been done. A dredging-boat will make a long cutting in one season, 
 perhaps expending $5,000. 
 
 Q. What do you account your interest as a miner and a representa- 
 tive of this company in the proposed channel east from here? 
 
 A. I do not quite understand your question. 
 
 Q. How would the opening of this water channel to the east affect 
 yourself and other coal-mining interests here ? 
 
 A. I think that our lands would rise in value ; I cannot tell how many 
 fold, but mining would commence on all our creeks and all along the 
 river, and we would be equal to filling any demand that might arise; 
 all the sea-board. 
 
 Q. In other words, the same disadvantage that you have described 
 existing westward exists in a greater degree to the east, and the benefit 
 would be greater to you of opening the channel eastward than west- 
 ward? 
 
 A. We should have, I suppose, many times the market eastward for 
 our coal, if we could get it there at reasonable figures. Our great 
 market, I think, would be to the east. 
 30 ts 
 
4.66 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 We have on our property, in addition to the coal which we are ac- 
 tually mining, all the qualities of coal which have been described by 
 Professor Ansted. We have abundance of cannel and of bituminous 
 coal, with all sorts of grades, nearly all of which is excellent coal, that 
 is free from sulphur and impurities, and we have several seams of this 
 same splint-coal. 
 
 Professor Ansted gave you an account of a section of a coal-field ; I 
 have had something of the same work done this summer on Paint Creek, 
 above us. We had in one hill twenty-one seams of coal opened and 
 exposed to view, and thirteen of those seams we had opened so that we 
 could see how thick they were. These thirteen seams contained 52 feet 
 of coal, all of which was over 2 feet thick. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. How thick is the vein you are now working? 
 
 A. At the point we are working it is from 6 to 10 feet thick, but on 
 Paint Creek that is 11 j feet thick and is nearly all splint-coal, but over 
 a large section of it the cannel comes in the middle of it. 
 
 Q. How many tons do you get from an acre, on an average ? 
 
 A. We count a cubic foot as a cubic bushel and a cubic yard as a 
 cubic ton in round numbers. An acre is about 208 feet square. There 
 are 40,000 bushels to the acre for every foot of thickness. That is just 
 about it. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. That tells us how much there is, but how much do you get out on 
 an average ? 
 
 A. Do you mean how much do we mine f 
 
 Q. Yes, on an average. 
 
 A. Our company takes out what there is from an acre, and we say 
 there is about one-third or One-quarter waste. Much of that waste could 
 be saved, I have no doubt, if we had proper coke ovens, and means of 
 saving it. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What are the thicknesses of the veins 1 
 
 A. From 6 to 10 feet where we are working, but at other points it is 
 thicker, say 11J feet. A few miles it runs from 8 to 11J feet, partly can- 
 nel and partly splint and partly bituminous. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. To get at the relative cost of water and rail, how many miles is 
 it from your mines to Cincinnati by water? 
 
 A. It is about two hundred and seventy -five miles by water from our 
 place to Cincinnati, and by rail there are sixty-seven miles to Hunting- 
 ton. 
 
 Q. Then I understand from that that the two hundred and odd miles 
 by water is carried for 50 cents, and the sixty-seven miles to Huntington 
 is carried, say, for 90 cents $ 
 
 A. The minimum is 75 cents ; that is the very lowest at which it is 
 carried. If coal was 10 cents a bushel, and we sold it at that, we should 
 get it carried for 75 cents ; so you may, perhaps, base it on that, and it 
 could be carried -for 50 cents from our place to Cincinnati if the water 
 was all right. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. I wish to continue the voyage of one of those barges drawing 4J 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 467 
 
 feet of water. Suppose the shoals were removed from here to Hunting- 
 ton. From there to Cincinnati how regularly and during what trade of 
 the year can your barges run ? 
 
 A. Do you mean from Huntington f 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. 
 
 A. You compel me to notice the disadvantages of the harbor there. 
 They have located that town at a point where there is really no water. 
 I mean at Huntington. 
 
 Q. What is the difficulty of the harbor"? 
 
 A. The harbor at Huntington has very little water, and at low water 
 it has scarcely a foot and a half or two feet deep where we load coal, so 
 that we are often compelled to stop off work to allow the boats to float. 
 The railroad undertook by contract to dredge it out, and make deep 
 water, so that we could always load boats. 
 
 Q. Is that to be done 1 
 
 A. They talk about it, but I do not suppose they will do it. But if 
 they had continued their road a few miles farther, to the mouth of the 
 Big Sandy, we should have had deep water all the time, and shipped 
 nearly all the year round. 
 
 ij. And that work is incumbent of right upon the railroad company ? 
 
 A. "Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Passing beyond that and getting now to the mouth of the Big 
 Sandy and the river itself, and from there down to Cincinnati, what is 
 the route I 
 
 A. Between the mouth of the Kanawha and Huntington is one very 
 serious shoal, one of the worst on the Ohio River, called Gnyenne. It 
 is just about two miles above Huntington. We have one almost as bad 
 at the lower end. 
 
 Q. Suppose the terminus of the road were carried to the mouth of the 
 Big Sandy ? 
 
 A. Then we should have had no trouble whatever. 
 
 Q. Now, start from there and speak of the distance from thereto Cin- 
 cinnati. What would be your navigation ; how regular would it be, 
 and during what part of the year for those barges drawing 4J feet of 
 water % 
 
 A. If you take the water exactly as it is to-day we should not, when 
 the water was low, load to 4% feet. We should load to the water, say 3 
 or 3£ feet. We should keep going about from eight to nine months in 
 the year then. 
 
 Q. On the Ohio ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. On 3£ feet of water ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. We could ship coal from eight to nine months in the 
 year. 
 
 Q. Which are the three months which you except 1 
 
 A. September, October, and November. Now, to-day, in October, we 
 have plenty of water. Last year we had not. But probably there will 
 be three months in the year when the water will be too low to ship. 
 , Q. Do you make in your statement any allowance for the river being 
 closed by ice ? 
 
 A. No, sir. In the winter you may have a month, and you may have 
 six weeks, when it is impossible to ship for that reason. 
 
 Q. Then, apart from obstruction by ice, there are three months only in 
 which you could not ship ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So that your statement is that in getting water navigation from 
 
468 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD, 
 
 here to Cincinnati your whole practiced difficulty is between your mines 
 and the mouth of the Big Sandy i , f th lst of February, 
 
 A. Yes, sir Now, this year we ^hipped ' *°£ _%^° wM no diffi- 
 
 X 1 "^^^" ^ ^^^ the river M1 and we 
 
 It is not necessaiy i load boatg g() that whea a gwen 
 
 Sme we hou d"s e end twen?y or twenty-five boats down at once that 
 wo^ld be the customary way, but we must have deep-loading water. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 What is the distance between the mouth of the Big Kanawha 
 and'the Big Sandy? . 
 
 A. It is about fifty-seven or sixty miles. 
 
 Examination of Benjamin H. Smith, of Charlestown, West Virginia. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Please state to the committee your views upon the neces- 
 sity of improved navigation here; what facilities you already have; 
 what resources you possess, and such other matters as may come within 
 the subject of our inquiry. 
 
 Answer. I am not a practical geologist : I am not a shipper of coal ; I 
 have no connection with any iron business, but I am an old settler, and I 
 have been conversant with the business of the country for nearly fifty 
 years ; in fact since I have resided here. 
 
 All my knowledge is general. I believe, and have believed for many 
 years, that there is more mineral wealth in this valley, and the valleys 
 connected with it, take Big Coal, Elk, Gauley, than any other part of 
 the world of equal extent. 
 
 I have had some such information as you have on the subject, derived 
 from history, from information from others and from geologists, but 
 from that information I believe that there is no country on the globe 
 which furnishes as much of mineral wealth — that is, in coal — as this 
 country. 
 
 We used to think that salt was the all-absorbing subject, and no man 
 was respectable, or a gentleman, in this country, who did not own salt 
 property, and he that would talk about the value of coal being greater 
 than that of salt was but little regarded ; but I believe the opinion is 
 now prevalent that salt is a very subordinate interest compared with 
 coal. 
 
 I have had an acquaintance with all the geologists, I think, who have 
 been in, this part of the country. I was particularly intimate with Pro- 
 fessor Rodgers, who explored this country. He was the State geologist, 
 and was here for some time, and first conveyed to me an idea of the vast 
 extent of the coal property in this country 
 
 1 have heard Professor Austed this evening, and I heard him when 
 he was here before, and nothing has occurred from general information 
 which in the slighest degree has changed my oDinioS about the amount 
 of the interest in this part of the country °P lmon aDout tUL amount 
 
 As to the importance of this line of communication I hivo never had 
 but one op Dion about it. I have tri P <1 ™™ 1 i * JZ. j • 
 
 some way/ I have tried to get this James mCZJ ^* lfc T^ d "} 
 opened. I have regarded it as vital t othe TnLr„cf^ ^awha Canal 
 the country and vital to the interests of all t)?i«wff ° f thlS f ection of 
 
 I am beginning to be a little shatf £' n^K^S^ . I 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 469 
 
 think tli at tbey work too much for their own benefit, and that they cal- 
 culate how much you can spare out of what you receive for your coal, 
 considering that the balance is theirs. I think that they will ascertain 
 what it will bring and then they will take from the price you get enough 
 to let you pay them the carriage, and that is all. If there is any profit 
 on it they will take it. 
 
 I do not want to be regarded as in the slightest degree in conflict with 
 the Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad Company. I struggled very hard to 
 get them to build the road and I do not want to detract from the merits 
 that they really have, but I have learned recently, and with regret, that 
 they seem to be following the plan of other railroads, to find out how 
 much men can bear to pay, how much they can afford to give and live, 
 and they just let the man live and take the balance. I think this rail- 
 road company is following very readily in that track. The only way to 
 correct it is to make a line of water communication that will keep them in 
 proper subjection. I think it will have a happy effect upon them. Now, 
 this line of communication is not only valuable to us, and it would be, 
 perhaps, of more value to this country than to any other portion of the 
 United States, but the whole West are interested in it. Build a line of 
 communication upon a scale that is worthy of the character of the Con- 
 gress of the United States. Do not build any little bit of a ditch, but 
 a large communication, which will take all the produce of these Western 
 States, their wheat, their corn, and their other products to market, and 
 there you can have a line of communication but little interrupted by 
 ice. 
 
 Farther north the ice in the Erie Canal, I think, interrupts some four 
 or five months in the year, but I do not think, on an average, that there 
 would be more than two or three weeks of interruption on this line by 
 ice. Build a large canal, such as I said with reference to the character 
 of the great United States, audit will carry all the products of Ohio, 
 Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, Tennessee, Missouri, Kentucky, and the 
 whole West will find an easy and ready communication with the Bast, . 
 and with the eastern markets. Nothing short of that sort of a canal 
 will answer the purpose. If you begin it, begin it in a style and in a 
 magnitude that becomes the dignity of this magnificent nation, for we 
 are a magnificent nation, and we have a vast amount of agricultural 
 wealth here, all of it seeking an outlet, and you must make a line of 
 communication that will give accommodation to the whole country. 
 You will take off a half a bushel, perhaps, then from the cost of every 
 bushel of wheat raised in that country, and one year's profits on this 
 line of communication will pay for the whole expenses. I do not care 
 what it costs. It can run the whole year, and take all the produce of 
 the country if it is built as it ought to be built, and in the manner that 
 it ought to be built. It will carry the whole produce of the western 
 country along these lines to market. 
 
 I have had some little observation .as to the lines of communication 
 East and West. I have been somewhat familiar with all of them. I 
 have traveled over them and I know the conveniences and inconve- 
 niences of each. I have examined the repots of skillful engineers and 
 have been doing so for forty years, and I have long since come to this 
 conclusion, that there is no line of communication between the East and 
 the West comparable to this line. The waters of the James and the Kana- 
 wha, branches of each other, come and interlock, and there is but one 
 summit-level, and that summit-level can be passed by a tuunel. It will 
 cost a good deal of money ; it may be a long tunnel ; but its object is one 
 vital to half the nation. 
 
.170 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 I say that the whole western world is interested in it ; the whole ter- 
 ritory west is interested. I think that the reduced price of transporting 
 the produce of the western country to market will more than pay for 
 this work. 
 
 The State of West Virginia and the State of East Virginia having 
 made a large amount of improvements upon this line — that is, East Vir- 
 ginia while West Virginia was a part of it, and having expended a vast 
 amount of money, I understand, give the whole of this work to Congress 
 if she will finish it. It is really too great for any one State to accom- 
 plish. It4s a national work, and nothing but a national work. It is 
 not a State work. It is conducting commerce among the States under 
 the language of the Constitution. It is not confined to one State, but 
 to all these States, and I think there can be no question about its con- 
 stitutionality, if we take Chief-Justice Marshall as a guide. And where 
 it is commerce among the States it is legitimate. And here it is to fa- 
 cilitate commerce among the States. It is a great undertaking and is 
 worthy the character of a great nation. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Can yon tell us about the timber in this whole country ? 
 
 A. The Elk Eiver is almost a virgin forest of from a hundred and 
 fifty to a hundred and seventy-five miles long. I do not know by actual 
 measurement myself, but we have a sort of navigation in this country 
 known as log navigation, and a company who have attempted to im- 
 prove Elk Eiver have had it surveyed. They say that there is twelve 
 hundred miles of log navigation on Elk ; that is, creeks indenting the 
 country and running up into the mountains where there is a vast 
 amount of timber, all of which creeks will float logs into the Elk and 
 bring them down to this place. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. What kind of timber is that ? 
 
 A. It is every sort of timber common to the western country. All the 
 qualities of the oak, white oak, black oak, red oak, chestnut, poplar, 
 beech, and sugar-trees. There are a great many other sorts of timber 
 whose names I do not recollect, but in that country is all the timber 
 common to the country. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Is there not a quantity of pine in Pocahontas? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. And ash? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Wild cherry? 
 
 A. Wild cherry. And these hollows in all the streams are very rich 
 land. It has been unexplored because there has been no line of com- 
 munication by which it can be settled by business people, and it is al- 
 most a wilderness. I have traveled through it often for miles' without 
 meeting a house. And the Elk now, without any improvement, will 
 float that all out. If such a communication as this was made, that they 
 could get it to market, the people would strike out into the country and 
 bring it to market. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 471 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. All the logs coming down here finding navigation now can go from 
 here to the Ohio 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir, when they come down at a flood. Now, up tbe New Riv- 
 er, of which you have had some idea to-day, where the wildest moun- 
 tains are encountered, perhaps, this side of the Andes, it passes through 
 a virgin forest and there is a vast amount of timber there on either side. 
 All the streams that put into the Kanawha come out of the hilly country, 
 where the timber is very little disturbed. There is a vast amount of 
 timber there. In fact I do not know any part of the United States now, 
 in this section of the country, where there is as much timber which can 
 be utilized as there. I have never been engaged myself in getting tim- 
 ber, though I know all the different kinds of timbers and know their 
 value. 
 
 The committee was asking some information about the navigation of 
 this river. When I came here they were running out salt in boats that 
 carried about four hundred barrels, and in 1324, 1 think it was, they 
 commenced to improve the river by sluice navigation, and it has con- 
 tinued to improve from that day to this. The State spent about $90,000, 
 and after that the tolls received from the river were collected in part by 
 the State and appropriated by the State, and a portion of them were all 
 the while applied to improving the navigation. In 1822 a boat carrying, 
 two hundred barrels of salt, a half load, alone could get out. Now, with 
 the improvements of this sluice navigation, these boats can run out with- 
 out any difficulty by the sluices, and, by a continuing improvement in 
 sluice navigation, the boats have been from time to time facilitated in 
 making their way to the Ohio River, but the natural state of the river — 
 and that I suppose gentlemen speak of— comparing it to the Ohio, was 
 very inferior for running' out. As I say, the sluice navigation from here 
 to the mouth has so improved it as to enable small boats now to run all 
 the time up and down the river. It is by reason of this change of the 
 natural current, by works upon it by dredge-boats and by machinery of 
 that kind, that they have improved the depth of the channel for. say, 
 twenty, thirty, forty, or may be fifty feet wide, which they can run up. 
 They are now expending $25,000, I think, appropriated by Congress, 
 and they are expending all the tolls in addition to making sluice navi- 
 gation to enable them to get out with their salt. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Do they levy tolls now! 
 
 A. Yes, sir; by the State, And West Virginia, after its separation, 
 became the owner, and claimed and exercised the right of controlling 
 this work. It formerly belonged to the State. There are tolls levied 
 now upon all the salt and all the coal and everything that goes out for 
 the present very imperfect improvement which we have. By this sort 
 of improvement we have a navigation for small boats and small barges 
 better, perhaps, than it is in the Ohio above, but not equal to the Ohio 
 below the mouth. Since 1824 there has hardly been a year that some 
 money has not been expended in this way in improving the channel. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. What are those tolls, if you remember "I 
 A. Two cents and a half lor a barrel. There is a tariff on coal also. 
 
 Examination of Dr. J. P. Hale. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. Are you engaged in the manufacture of salt 1 
 
472 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; I have been engaged in it a number of years. 
 
 Q. State any facts with reference to its manufacture, and the statis- 
 tics of that production which may occur to you as important. 
 
 A. Salt has been made in this valley since 1858, more or less, but at 
 sometimes much more largely than at present. The manufacture at 
 present, from particular reasons, is less than it was some years ago. 
 The largest annual product we have had has been a little less than three 
 and one-half millions of bushels. 
 
 Q. State the product at present. 
 
 A. The present product is about a million and a half. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. Are you speaking of your own works'? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I am speaking of the product of the valley. A system 
 of what is termed dead rents has prevailed for a few years past. A 
 number of the furnaces were thrown out. That has curtailed our 
 prices. That expires next year, and there will be more salt made. We 
 have had several dead-rent systems here. The present one was paid by 
 the Ohio Eiver Salt Company. It is a company existing on the Ohio 
 Eiver near Pomeroy. They purchased all the salt made on this river a 
 few years ago, and finding that they had more than the markets would 
 consume they were under the necessity of curtailing, and they took 
 that method of doing so. They pay the furnaces so much a year to lie 
 idle instead of paying them for salt when made. 
 
 Q. What is that estimated a year 1 
 
 A. That is a matter of contract in each particular case. Some get 
 more and some get less. It generally amounted to so much per bushel, 
 say two or three or four cents. 
 
 Q. And it is a payment per bushel based upon the producing capacity 
 of the works ? 
 
 A. The amount was arrived at by a calculation of that sort, but it 
 was not finally so much per bushel, it was so many thousand dollars for 
 a furnace. 
 
 Q. But that was the mode of getting at it ? 
 
 A. The productive capacity of each of the furnaces was one of the 
 elements. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Where have your markets been ? 
 
 A. Our chief markets have been westward, through the Ohio and 
 Mississippi Valleys and the tributaries of these streams, and the railroads 
 branching out from them. 
 
 Q. Have you a market eastward since the opening of the road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; a small one, but very small on account of the high 
 freights. 
 
 Q. Please state your freights eastward. 
 
 A. They commenced with us at a dollar a barrel, but we afterward 
 got a special rate for a time. This year it is sixty cents from here to 
 Richmond and all points this side. 
 
 Q. What is the weight of a barrel of salt? 
 
 A. Two hundred and eighty pounds net j - about three hundred pounds 
 gross. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Q. Did I understand you right when you stated all points this side ? 
 A. Yes, sir. When you get beyoud a point where the local schedule 
 Would prevail. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 473 
 
 Q. How far would that be 1 
 
 A. About a hundred miles. After you get to Hinton or that region it 
 is the same. 
 
 Q. And the same price for a hundred miles that it would be for three 
 hundred ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; or nearly four hundred; say to Eichmond. That is a 
 special contract. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Tou speak, of course, of the Chesapeake and Ohio Bailroad f 
 
 A. Yes, sir; that is the only outlet we have in that direction. Here- 
 tofore we have had no market in that direction except what was wag- 
 oned up a hundred miles or so. 
 
 Q. What do you pay westward f 
 
 A. Our freights to Cincinnati are about 25 cents a barrel. 
 
 Q. By what route ? 
 
 A. Down river. 
 
 Q. What is the distance ? 
 
 A. It is less than three hundred miles — two hundred and sixty miles. 
 
 Q. Do you ship any over the railroad westward 1 
 
 A. We have shipped about fifteen hundred barrels recently from here 
 to Huntington, and from there to Cincinnati, and from there to the Ohio 
 ports. 
 
 Q. Do you ship through to Cincinnati ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I mean by rail and river ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What are the charges 1 
 
 A. We had a special contract there while the river was low, and we 
 could not ship East at 25 cents from here to Cincinnati. 
 
 Q. The same by rail or boat ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it was the same we were paying by boat. 
 
 Q. What do you regard as the chief difficulties in the full develop- 
 ment of the salt business here 1 
 
 A. Uniform and reliable navigation is the great difficulty we have. 
 At the present moment I have about twenty thousand bushels of salt 
 lying in my yards waiting for shipment. We have had low water here 
 for two or three months. There is an active and great demand in the 
 market now for salt, and a good deal of it is sold to be delivered, and yet 
 we have not been able to ship any by river for two months or more. 
 
 Q. That demand is in the western markets ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Could you compete with the eastern markets ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; if we had water transportation eastward I think we 
 could take all the market from Baltimore, say down to the Gulf on the 
 sea-board — the Atlantic States. From Baltimore up we would come in 
 conflict with the New York salt. They could deliver as cheaply perhaps 
 in New York and Philadelphia as we could, but from Baltimore south, 
 all along the sea-board, we could no doubt deliver cheaper than they 
 could get it from New York or Liverpool, from whence the chief supply 
 comes. 
 
 Q. How does the salt water here compare with that from Syracuse in 
 strength 1 
 
 A. It is not so strong, but we have an advantage over them in cheap 
 fuel. They are not near any coal-fields. We have the coal at our 
 doors, and the actual cost of mining is our only expense. Another 
 
474 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 advantage which we claim that our salt has over theirs is its freedom 
 from lime. We have no sulphate of lime, or lime of any form, in our 
 brine. We find that a very great advantage in the quality of the salt 
 and in the manufacture of it. We manufacture by a different process. 
 They make it in kettles alone, except the solar salt. All they make by 
 artificial heat is boiled in kettles. We granulate our salt in large 
 wooden vats heated by steam-pipes running through them. Our cisterns 
 are about 10 feet wide, about 100 to 150 feet in length, and about 18 
 inches deep. There are generally about five principal pipes, about five 
 inches in diameter, passing through, those supplied by steam keeping up 
 a temperature of from 160 to 200. 
 
 Q. What is the price of salt at your manufactory? 
 
 A. Our retail price is about $1.40 a barrel. 
 
 Q. What is the extent of the salt-territory here, as you understand it J 
 
 A. Salt has been made for ten or fifteen miles along the river, but it 
 is very much narrowed now. It is only within two or three or four 
 miles. Experience has shown that the strongest brine is found some 
 three or four miles on either side of the river. 
 
 By Mr. SHERMAN : 
 
 Q. How deep do you bore ? 
 
 A. In one instance a well was bored here about 2,000 feet. Some few 
 have been bored to fifteen and eighteen hundred feet, but the usual depth 
 is 800 to 1,000 feet. The belief was that we got no brine after about 
 1,000 feet; that all the boring beyond that amounted to nothing. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. How many wells have been bored in all ? 
 
 A. There are about one hundred and twenty wells in the whole dis- 
 trict. 
 
 Q. How many are extinguished? 
 
 A. They could all be worked again, but some are not as good as they 
 have been. 
 
 Q. How many are abandoned, then ? 
 
 A. I believe half, or a third of them at any rate, we consider aban- 
 doned, and the others are practically abandoned. They may never be 
 started again, and are idle at present. 
 
 Q. How many salt-works are there in this valley ! 
 
 A. There are in operation to-day only five. 
 
 Q. How far from this place ? 
 
 A. They are all about eight miles, commencing about three and a 
 half miles above the town. The last one is about eight miles away. 
 There are a number of other idle ones, five, or six, or seven, within the 
 same territory under this dead-rent system. Several of them will be 
 started on the 1st of January. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. In speaking of the products of the valley did you include the 
 Ohio Biver — Mason County? 
 
 A. O, no, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know the products of that ? 
 
 A. The entire product of thePomeroy region on both sides, above and 
 below, will be, I suppose, four millions of bushels this year. They have 
 over twenty furnaces in active operation there now. They are about 
 fifteen miles above the mouth of this river ; some are more and some 
 are less. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 475 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Are those wells abandoned because of the diminution of the 
 yield ? 
 
 A. Some of them have been abandoned on that account both in the 
 upper and lower portions of the district. There seems to be a basin 
 here, and on either margin of it, up or down, the brine seems to have 
 deteriorated to such an extent that they were not profitably worked, 
 and have been abandoned for some years, but toward the center of that 
 basin the brines are still good. 
 
 Q. Have you discovered any indication of the failure of the yields'? 
 
 A. There is a little deterioration iu the brine from year to year. You 
 cannot see it in any one year, but taking a series of ten years it is per- 
 ceptible. 
 
 Q. You have already mentioned the percentage of the yield, have 
 you not ? 
 
 A. I have not. 
 
 Q. State that, if you please. 
 
 A. We use a hydrometer graded from one to twenty five, one being 
 fresh water, and twenty-five being saturated brine. We use an instru- 
 ment to mark the degrees of water. The usual strength of the brine 
 we are working here is from eight to about ten — eight, nine, ten, 
 eleven, twelve. They vary a little at different wells ; we generally call 
 it about ten. 
 
 Q. What percentage of that has been lost in an average of ten years ? 
 
 A. Ten years ago I suppose it was a degree stronger than it now is, 
 on an average ; some wells, two or three degrees. In others the dete- 
 rioration is scarcely perceptible, but, I suppose, taking the general 
 average in ten years, there would be a difference of a degree in the 
 strength of the brine. 
 
 Q. It is your opinion, then, that the enterprise will have to be aban- 
 doned after a while for want of yield of saline matter? 
 
 A. It looks quite possible that that may be the result of it sooner or 
 later; not in a life-time, I suppose, but eventually that would be the 
 result. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do your new wells show the same strength as the old ones? 
 
 A. No, sir ; none of the wells bored now are as strong as those of 
 twenty or thirty years ago. It was not uncommon to have a well stand 
 at fifteen, and now it is a rare instance that you get it above ten or 
 eleven. That effect is brought about, however, in all probability, by 
 the number of idle and abandoned wells allowing a large quantity of 
 fresh water to find its way down into the general reservoir of salt water 
 below. It is thought, by persons experienced in the business here, that 
 if those wells were blocked up, keeping the fresh water away, that the 
 wells might regain their entire strength. That is a theory, however, 
 and I do not know whether it would be true or not. 
 
 A possible source of large operations is the manufacture of chemicals 
 of which salt is the basis — principally soda-ash, which is a very large 
 manufacture in England, and is not made at all, or to a small extent 
 only, in this country. The importations last year of soda-ash into this 
 country were a hundred thousand tons. This valley is well adapted to 
 the manufacture of it, having the salt abundant and cheap, and the fuel 
 as cheap as it can be found anywhere. Two years ago the statistics in 
 England showed that one hundred and eighty-odd thousand tons of raw 
 material were used in the manufacture of soda-ash. The English are 
 
476 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 the largest manufacturers It can ^^^jjj^ 
 very cheap and that can be found ^^^1^0 ingredients, 
 nfactured here. Cheap salt aud °{^V IU 
 
 The fuel we have here for the mere £&&£■ { other manufo ctures that 
 
 After soda-ash there are a .large ™™ b( $ his would make ,then, a good 
 
 require salt and soda-ash such a, fl ass ^ have also d Band . Many 
 
 j^S^STve^nn^l^admirably adapted for glass-man, 
 
 Addition to fcg la SS soap, -^^^ ?^ ^ 
 
 T me f e ^ns al the T ingredients except the grease, which could be 
 cheap y, having au tn gcom . D from ^ ^.^ market& C]l 
 
 S 1S sat and soda-ash would be on the ground. 
 
 Rromine is being manufactured now to some extent, and a large per- 
 ti° , e of bromine is found in these brines. Bromine from one furnace 
 uoVere is manufactured at the rate of a hundred and twenty pounds per 
 day. The demand for that is increasing very largely, the consumption 
 is increasing very largely, and it is getting to be a very important 
 manufacture. 
 
 Iodine has also been made, to a small extent, here, from the refuse ot 
 these salt-water works ; also bleaching-powders, sulphate of soda, and 
 a number of chemicals. 
 
 Examination of A. E. Summers, of the West Virginia senate: 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. 1 do not know to what point to call your attention, and will ask you 
 to submit any suggestions to the committee which will inform them in 
 refereuce to their investigation,, which may occur to you. 
 
 A. Mr. Chairman, 1 do not know to what point the examination has 
 gone, and do not know but what I will be repeating if I go into a gen- 
 eral statement. 
 
 Q. The particular point we have come here to investigate is, the prac- 
 ticability and desirability of this proposed water-line. We should like 
 to hear of that, together with any information which yon may be able 
 to give us upon the general subject of transportation. 
 
 A. So far as our transportation is concerned, so far back as I can re- 
 member, having lived here all my life, we have always looked to there 
 being more water in this river, when there was a run of low water, 
 than in the Ohio. One difference is that when a boat is too heavily 
 loaded and strikes here she strikes hard, and there she has an easier 
 bottom and does not hurt herself. As a question of low water, we al- 
 ways have more water for navigation here than there. We can take out 
 a more heavily loaded boat. The products here are heavy as a general 
 thing. They are salt and coal, the products of the forest and our ag- 
 ricultural products, and, of course, matters of that kind need water- 
 transportation rather than rail. We cannot get our products East be- 
 cause we want the cheaper transportation afforded by the water, the 
 railroad not being able to supply the transportation even if their rates 
 could be made available. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. I take it that you have some valuable information which you nii<dit 
 
 give the committee without any formal questions. I have read in the 
 
 papers that you lately made a speech here in which some verv valna 
 
 ble statistics were given as to the products and resources of the v ill"y 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 477 
 
 Anything that you, yourself, wish to communicate the committee would 
 be glad to hear. 
 
 A. It having been intimated to me that I would be requested to make 
 some statements, I have cut from the paper a table which I had formed 
 and which is taken from the United States Census, which gives a great 
 deal of the matter in statistical form, covering agriculture, manufac- 
 tures, miniDg, &c. They are as follows : 
 
 Table No. 1. — Showing the material interests, industries, and resources of Hie State of Tl r est 
 Virginia, and tliebr present development, prepared from the ninth census of the United 
 States. 
 
 For what. 
 
 Number, 
 
 quantity, or 
 
 value. 
 
 Gkoup 1. 
 
 Area, square miles 
 
 Acres 
 
 Population . 
 
 Group 2. 
 
 Area in actual cultivation, acres 
 
 Woodland in farms but not in actual cultivation, acres 
 
 Size of farms, acres 
 
 Number of farms 
 
 Value of farms 
 
 Value of farm-implements and machinery „ 
 
 Group 3. 
 
 Value of all farm-products, including betterments and additions 
 
 to stock for census year 
 
 Value of home manufactures 
 
 Wheat, (winter,) bushels 
 
 Wheat, (spring,) bushels 
 
 Corn, bushels - 
 
 Oats, bushels 
 
 Rye, bushels - 
 
 Barley, bushels - 
 
 Buckwheat, bushels 
 
 Potatoes, (Irish,) bushels 
 
 Potatoes, (sweet,) bushels 
 
 Seed, (clover,) bushels 
 
 Seed, (flax,) bushels 
 
 Seed, (grass,) bushels , 
 
 Hay, tons 
 
 Flax, pounds 
 
 Wool, pounds 
 
 Average weight of fleece 
 
 Tobacco, pounds 
 
 Sugar, (maple,) pounds 
 
 Butter, pounds 
 
 Cheese, pounds 
 
 Molasses, (maple,) gallons 
 
 Molasses, (sorghum,) gallons 
 
 Horses, number.. 
 
 Cattle, number 
 
 Hogs, number 
 
 Sheep, number 
 
 Value of all live stock 
 
 Value of animals slaughtered or sold to be slaughtered 
 
 Value of orchard-products 
 
 Value of forest-products 
 
 23, 000 
 
 14,720,000 
 
 442, 014 
 
 2, 580, 254 
 
 4, 364, 405 
 
 214 
 
 39,778 
 
 $101,604,381 
 
 $2, 112, 937 
 
 $23, 379, 692 
 
 $615, 412 
 
 2, 480, 143 
 
 3,395 
 
 8, 197, 865 
 
 2,413,749 
 
 277, 746 
 
 50, 363 
 
 82,906 
 
 1,053,507 
 
 46, 984 
 
 3,939 
 
 2,393 
 
 3,868 
 
 224, 104 
 
 82,726 
 
 1,593,541 
 
 2.89 
 
 2, 046, 452 
 
 490, 606 
 
 5, 044, 475 
 
 32, 429 
 
 20, 200 
 
 780, 829 
 
 99, 362 
 
 337, 881 
 
 268, 031 
 
 552, 327 
 
 $17, 175, 420 
 
 $4,914,792 
 
 $848, 773 
 
 $363, 668 
 
478 
 
 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Table No. 1. — Slunuing the material interests, industries, and resources of the Stale of West 
 
 Virginia, $-c. — Continued. 
 
 For what. 
 
 MANUFACTURES — GENERAL. 
 
 Number of manufacturing establishments 
 
 Number of steam-engines used 
 
 Number of water-wheels used , 
 
 Aggregate horse-power of engines and water-wheels . 
 
 Number of hands employed 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Materials used, (value of) 
 
 Value of all products 
 
 Group 4.— Iron— general. 
 
 Number of establishments. 
 
 Hands employed , 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Group 5. — Iron— special — pig. 
 
 Number of establishments .... .... ..- , 
 
 Blast-furnaces.... - ... .... . 
 
 Daily capacity, (tons).... ...... 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid , 
 
 Materials used 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products - 
 
 Amount of products, (tons) . 
 
 iron — CAST. 
 
 Number of establishments . 
 
 Daily capacity, (tons melted metal) . . . .. .. 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested ■. 
 
 Value of products 
 
 iron — rolled. 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested '. 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Iron — castlngs. 
 
 Number of establishments , 
 
 Hands employed _. 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products r 
 
 Iron— stoves, heaters, and hollow-ware. 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Number, 
 
 quantity, or 
 
 value. 
 
 $11 
 
 $4 
 
 $14 
 
 $24 
 
 2,444 
 
 509 
 
 683 
 
 27, 331 
 
 11,67a 
 
 084,520 
 
 322, 164 
 
 503, 701 
 
 102, 201 
 
 38 
 
 2,100 
 
 $1, 364, 195 
 
 $2, 084, 900 
 $5, 168, 892 
 
 68 
 317 
 $179, 720 
 $243, 300 
 $434, 000 
 $577, 200 
 16, 950 
 
 24 
 
 89 
 
 285 
 
 $167, 488 
 
 $462,100 
 
 $566, 072 
 
 1,498 
 $1,016,987 
 $1,185,800 
 ^4,025,620 
 
 16 
 
 148 
 
 $81,988 
 
 $286, 900 
 
 .922 
 
 137 
 
 '$85, 500 
 $175, 200 
 $274, 100 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 479 
 
 Table No. 1. — Showing the material interests, industries, and resources of the State of West 
 
 Virginia, fyc. — Continued. 
 
 For what. 
 
 Number, 
 
 quantity, or 
 
 value. 
 
 13 
 
 18 
 21 
 18 
 20 
 
 Iron — nails and spikes cut and wrought, and tacks. 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands employed v ....... ....-.■ 
 
 Wages paid , 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Group 6. — Agricultural implements. 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands employed ■-■-■ 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested - 
 
 Value of products .-.- 
 
 Group 1. — Salt. 
 
 Number of establishments . 
 
 Hands employed - 
 
 Wages paid --■- ...... 
 
 Capital invested ...... 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Amount manufactured — bushels 
 
 Capacity — 1873 
 
 Group 8— Tobacco. 
 
 Number of establishments .........■.•..-.....-..-. ■. 
 
 Hands employed ■;.-. ........ 
 
 Wages paid ..^...^....... 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Group 9.— Wool, wollen goods, cloth dressing, and carding 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands employed — 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products 
 
 [And no shoddy.] 
 
 Group 10.— Prints. 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands employed - 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested - 
 
 Value of products - ■ '• 
 
 Amount produced — yards 
 
 Group 11.— Leather, tanned and curried. 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested .-.*.* 
 
 Value of products - 
 
 1,156 
 $722,460 
 
 $988,000 
 4,665,000 
 
 11 
 
 58 
 
 $24, 183 
 $57, 650 
 $58,281 
 
 18 
 661 
 $290, 800 
 '$1,631,000 
 $1,507,605 
 $4,633,750 
 $7,621,654 
 
 45 
 
 198 
 
 '$69, 559 
 
 $46,775 
 
 $277, 573 
 
 74 
 316 
 
 $59, 828 
 $236, 100 
 $125, 763 
 
 $1,600 
 $20,000 
 $45, 000 
 175, 000 
 
 178 
 
 328 
 
 $68, 892 
 
 $456, 379 
 
 $840,845 
 
480 
 
 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Table No. l.^Showing the material interests, industries, and resources of the State of West- 
 Virginia, $-c. — Continued. 
 
 For what. 
 
 Number, 
 
 quantity, or 
 
 value. 
 
 Group 12.— Liquors, malt. 
 
 Number of establishments . 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Group 13.— Liquors, distilled. 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Group 14. — Lumber. 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands. employed 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Group 15. — Paper. 
 
 Number of establishments. 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Group 16. — Furniture and house fixtures. 
 
 Number of establishments . 
 
 Hands employed. 
 
 Wages paid '. 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Group 17. — Food and pood preparations. 
 
 Number of establishments . 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Group 18. — Articles op wear. 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Group 19.— Saddlery and harness. 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands employed '...'.'.'.'.'.'.'. 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 19 I Value of products V////.V//,",V.V/.Y.'.".'.'.".'.'.\ 
 
 11 
 43 
 
 $18,729 
 $145, 100 
 $157,539 
 
 10 
 79 
 
 $32,468 
 $218, 441 
 $206, 258 
 
 348 
 
 1,612 
 
 $393, 368 
 
 1,160,950 
 
 1, 696, 539 
 
 72 
 
 $31,386 
 $156, 000 
 $212, 182 
 
 47 
 
 155 
 
 $50, 460 
 
 $84, 850 
 
 $144, 533 
 
 492 
 
 803 
 
 $103,283 
 
 61,551,607 
 
 $5,007,237 
 
 206 
 
 760 
 
 $152, 193 
 
 $202,543 
 
 $767, 912 
 
 76 
 171 
 
 $21,785 
 
 $57,553 
 
 $162,657 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 481 
 
 Table No. 1. — Showing the material interests, industries, and resov.rces of the State of West 
 
 Virginia, 4'C — Continued. 
 
 For -what. 
 
 Number, 
 
 quantity, or 
 
 value. 
 
 Group 20 — Brick and tile. 
 
 Number of establishments - 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Group 21. — Flouring and grist mills. 
 
 Number of establishments. 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Daily capacity — bushels — 
 
 Group 22. — Machinery. 
 
 Number of establishments . 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Group 23.— Glass. 
 
 Number of establishments . 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested . . - ■- 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Group 24. — Cooperage. 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Group 25.— Boots and shoes. 
 
 Number of establishments , 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid — 
 
 Capital invested - 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Group 26.— Boats. 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Group 27. — Blacksmithing. 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products 
 
 31 TS 
 
 24 
 
 262 
 
 ftfi", 835 
 
 $182, 975 
 
 $139, 059 
 
 476 
 
 770 
 
 $94, 618 
 
 $1,539,257 
 
 $3, 933, 902 
 
 34, 493 
 
 15 
 
 355 
 $189, 600 
 $355, 500 
 $313, 343 
 
 1 
 
 150 
 
 $22, 000 
 
 $130, 000 
 
 $200, 000 
 
 101 
 
 549 
 
 $140, 243 
 
 $125, 632 
 
 $488, 476 
 
 252 
 429 
 
 $65, 620 
 
 $86, 195 
 
 $349, 018 
 
 3 
 
 66 
 
 $21, 400 
 $38, 000 
 $86, 300 
 
 390 
 
 475 
 
 $51,315 
 
 $90,285 
 
 $343, 014 
 
482 
 
 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Table No. 1. — Showing (he material interests, industries, and resources of the State of West 
 
 Virginia, ^-e.— Continued. 
 
 For what. 
 
 Number, 
 
 quantity, or 
 
 value. 
 
 Group 28. — Building-material. 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands employed ' 
 
 .Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products .' 
 
 Geoup29. — Mining — general, (includes oil, coal, and quar- 
 rying.) 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Group 30.— Coal. 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested __ 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Group 31.— Asphaltum. 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid < .. ^ '_'_' 
 
 Capital invested .' 
 
 Value of products 
 
 Group 32.— Petroleum. 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands employed .'* 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested '_'_ 
 
 Value of products *" 
 
 Amount produced — gallons „ '..'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'. 
 
 Group 33.— Oil-reelning. 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands employed " " 
 
 Wages paid "_[ 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 Value of products \ " " 
 
 Group 34.— Building not marine. 
 
 Number of establishments 
 
 Hands employed 
 
 Wages paid 
 
 Capital invested '.'.'.'.'.'..'. 
 
 Value of products '_['_ 
 
 380 
 
 1,892 
 
 $468, 253 
 
 Jl, 374, 825 
 
 11,839,714 
 
 185 
 
 1,527 
 
 $821, 613 
 
 $1, 554, 499 
 
 $2, 538, 531 
 
 41 
 
 1,140 
 
 $619, 376 
 
 $ 1, 434, 800 
 
 |l, 035, 802 
 
 1 
 23 
 
 $20,000 
 $514, 286 
 $450, 000 
 
 140 
 347 
 $176, 137 
 $600, 813 
 1,029,119 
 3, 013, 340 
 
 10 
 
 82 
 
 $22, 850 
 
 $125, 050 
 
 $432,650 
 
 140 
 410 
 
 $117, 460 
 $127,495 
 $467, 201 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 483 
 
 Table No. 1. — Slwicing the material interests, industries, and resources of the State of West 
 
 Virginia, tyc. — Continued. 
 
 is 
 
 21 
 
 20 
 16 
 17 
 
 25 
 2 
 5 
 
 16 
 
 For what. 
 
 Group 35. — Miscellaneous. 
 
 Free Schools. 
 
 For school population 
 
 Number of school-houses.. 1 
 
 Nu ruber of teachers, year ending August 31, 1862 
 
 Amount expended per capita nf population of school age 
 
 Vital Statistics. 
 
 Population to square mile 
 
 Numerical size of families 
 
 Healtbiulness (death rate) being 
 
 Longevity (75 years and over) ; 
 
 Churches. 
 
 Church sittings in proportion to population 
 
 Taxation. 
 
 All taxation except Federal, $100 value 
 
 Average among the States, per $100 value. 
 
 All taxation except Federal, distributed per capita 
 
 Average of all taxation, except Federal, among the States , dis 
 tributed per capita 
 
 Number, 
 
 quantity, or 
 
 value. 
 
 154, 596 
 2,216 
 2,645 
 $4.99 
 
 19. 22 
 
 5.63 
 
 .91 
 
 P. 23 
 
 fl. 98: 
 
 $7.04 
 
 The exact rank of West Virginia among the States, as shown by 
 the above table, is 16.83, or seventeen one-hundredths higher than the 
 seventeenth position. 
 
 Q. Have you any general information ? 
 
 A. None that I know, except what I presume has been already 
 stated by other gentlemen. I know of nothing special, although I know 
 of what the general production consists. 
 
 Q. To what extent do you suppose, if general communication was 
 opened through here, you would be troubled in the winter-time by ice, 
 or other obstructions ? 
 
 A. I do not know, sir, but we are very seldom troubled. I do not 
 think it will average a week at a time that we are troubled with our 
 river being closed. I have known it when under very peculiar circum- 
 stances in very cold weather, that the river has frozen for four or five 
 weeks, but, as a general thing, I do- not think our freezes will average 
 more than a week to ten days, and it has been frequently the case that 
 we went through the winter without any freezing of the river. 1 have 
 known a number of instances of that kind. 
 
 Q. How does the stage of water now compare with years usually 1 Is 
 it at its lowest stage t 
 
 A. No, sir ; to-day the water is not at its lowest stage, but it is pretty 
 well down to that. 
 
 Q. In the lowest time, in the summer, how much have you on your 
 different bars ? 
 
 A. I cannot answer that, from the fact that they have been improving 
 
484 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 them and digging them out, and since that has been done I am not fa- 
 miliar with the amount of water. . • 
 
 Q. Tbe Government made an appropriation of $25,000 last year , is, 
 that being expended on the river? f P] 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the engineer, Mr. Scott, is here under the ordeis ot col- 
 onel Merrill since early in the summer, and the dams are no* beiug 
 erected, and money is being expended by the erection of dams. 
 
 Q. Is the State also making expenditures on the riyer J 
 
 A. The State has been making expenditures, not directly ft om the 
 State treasury, but has been expending the tolls Xyery . year there 
 has been a considerable amount of tolls collected I do not think that 
 tbe old State ever looked to it very much as a .feeder to the treasury, 
 but has consumed the collections in improving the river. 
 
 Q Will you, or some other gentleman, speak of the legislation which 
 has taken place on the part of the State toward transferring to the Gen- 
 eral Government the river and its franchises'? 
 
 A. There have been several steps taken by the legislature at the dif- 
 ferent sessions with reference to it. There were joint resolutions intro- 
 duced last winter and passed before Christmas. 1 think there is a cer- 
 tified copy of those resolutions here for presentation to the committee, 
 appointing certain gentlemen to act as agents of this State for the pur- 
 pose of transferring or negotiating with the United States for the trans- 
 fer of the line, but my recollection of the resolutions is that they were 
 not empowered to act finally in the matter. They were a medium of 
 communication to give information and to make their report to the 
 State. I do not think that the final power could have been given them 
 simply by joint resolution. However, as I say, I understand the papers 
 are here for the use of the committee. 
 
 Q. I understand that commissioners were appointed. Have you any 
 doubt of the willingness of the State to transfer its entire property free 
 of charge to the General Government in the event of the General Gov- 
 ernment agreeing to make the canal through? 
 
 A. I could not speak positively about it, but I do not think there is 
 a particle of doubt upon that subject. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Are there any stone quarried here for shipment ? 
 
 A. No, sir; we have no stone that we are in the habit of shipping, 
 though we have some very fine building-stone here. 
 
 Q. (To Dr. Hale.) Where does your salt find a market ! 
 
 A. Through all the States bordering on the Ohio and Mississippi, 
 Eivers, Tennessee, Cumberland, Wabash, and Missouri. In fact, all the 
 western country going out to Omaha, some in Chicago, some in Cleve- 
 land. 
 
 Examination of Judge J. D. Camden : 
 
 The legislature of this State is now in session in the capitol, and they 
 have appointed a joint committee of our house and of the senate to 
 report to your committee, not so much to impart information as to ex- 
 tend to you the courtesies and hospitalities of the State. It was but 
 this morning that we understood a statement of facts which vou had 
 under consideration was desired. We are not, therefore, prepared to 
 furnish as full and satisfactory a statement as we should otherwise have 
 presented. The committee is now present; I am a member of that 
 committee. I do not know that I could give much information in addi 
 tion to what has been said, especially as this is not my place of resi 
 
TKANSPOKTATION TO THE SEABOAKD. 485 
 
 dence. I live in Clarksburgh, about a hundred and thirty miles east of 
 this on the line of the Baltimore and Ohio Bailroad. The committee 
 have procured a copy of the joint resolution adopted by the legislature 
 at its session last winter and which I propose to present to this body. 
 It will be seen by those resolutions that the board of public works was 
 authorized to appoint commissioners to confer with the authorities of 
 the United States with reference to the transfer of the interests of this 
 State in the contemplated improvement of the canal. 
 
 This coal region, as is well known to almost every one, is very exten- 
 sive. In the region where I live it abounds in bituminous coal, but 
 the variety is not so great as here. The principal stratum is about from 
 6 to 10 feet thick of bituminous coal and is regarded as rating amongst 
 the first class of gas coal. In the neighborhood of the town of Clarks- 
 burgh there are several mines now operated by companies sending these 
 coals to the eastern cities. 
 
 This coal is sent by the Baltimore and Ohio Bailroad to Baltimore, 
 and from thence shipped by water to Philadelphia, New Tork, and Bos- 
 ton. The charges upon the road are very heavy, something like $5 per 
 ton from that point to the city of Baltimore, leaving a very small mar- 
 gin to those who operate in the business and to the owners of the coal. 
 Those companies, I think, generally pay what is termed a royalty of 10 
 cents upon the ton. A ton of that coal is about' twenty-eight bushels. 
 This coal extends from here to that section. 
 
 It is said that in some neighborhoods there is cannel coal, but I think 
 that is doubtful. It is this main vein averaging about 5 feet in all that 
 region. It is a rolling, hilly country, and the coal lies in horizontal 
 veins, dipping to the west, generally about midway up the hillside. It 
 extends up the Elk Biver. A survey for a railroad from this point up 
 the Elk, passing near Braxton Oourt-House by Lewis Court-House and 
 to Clarksburgh, where I live, has been made on the Pennsylvania line. 
 The grade is a very convenient one for making a road, and this coal is 
 found upon nearly every part of the land. 
 
 I will mention, perhaps, what might be an item desirable to the com- 
 mittee, that salt water has been discovered up the Elk nearly seventy 
 miles from here, and they are now operating a very fine salt indeed. It 
 is operated by a New York company. I think it is the finest-looking 
 salt I have almost ever seen. It is very fair, and said to be very free 
 from all impurities. I think it is probable that the salt water will be 
 found between that and this, perhaps, along the line of the Elk pretty 
 generally by sinking deep enough for it. Salt has also been found, long- 
 since, upon the Little Kanawha on this line of contemplated railroad. 
 It was operated there I suppose as early as 1815. The brine is not 
 equal to the brine here. It has also been found at Clarksburgh. In 
 that vicinity some of the same character has been found, as on the 
 Little Kanawha, at a place called Bulltown. 
 
 The works at the vicinify of Clarksburgh have been somewhat aban- 
 doned. Salt can be brought there and sold at a cheaper rate than they 
 can afford to make it. They carry it on to a limited degree on the Little 
 Kanawha and also on the Upper Elk country, but the means of trans- 
 portation does not, of course, justify the owners in operating upon a 
 large scale. 
 
 As I stated before, I think it is probable when the Elk Valley, from 
 this point to Braxton Couit-House, a short distance, where they have 
 discovered salt — that it will generally be found at perhaps not every 
 point but at different points in the valley of that river. Colonel Floyd, 
 
486 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 of the committee, might give you some information as to the subject of 
 
 Petroleum is found in a narrow ^^^^fSTnitht 
 
 and three miles wide, running in a direct JemiD tne 
 
 the south, or west of south somewhat. It is found jn tw S 
 
 borhoods. L«S« ^ aQ S faM -,^BCi n ^Springr The annual qu an- 
 at WbiteO^, and toe other, sat B^gbP^ ^^ ^ 
 
 tity I cannot state but it ™^gp gent ^ ^.^ marketg 
 rels. Most of it is refined at Parker >»™& intg in ooncrete state> 
 
 and sold. Some of it is shipped to tne U J"^° ^ . • nrobable that 
 
 The vield perhaps is somewhat diminishing, but it is very proDame mat 
 S win be found m other neighborhoods, if proper exertions are made to 
 develop it. 
 
 JOINT KESOLTJTION No. lO.-Providing for the transfer of certain rights and franchises of the 
 State of West Virginia to the United btates. 
 
 "Whereas the Congress of the United States recently made an appropriation for a 
 survey to ascertain -whether it was practicable to constrnct a continuous water-line 
 through this State, to connect the waters of the Mississippi Valley with the Chesapeake 
 Bay, and the engineers employed for that purpose have shown that such a line is prac- 
 ticable ; and whereas the State of West Virginia regards the said line as a work of 
 national importance, and is anxious to afford every facility for the construction of the 
 same ; therefore, 
 
 lie it resolved by the legislature of West Virginia : 
 
 1. That the State of West Virginia hereby agrees to transfer all the rights, privileges, 
 and franchises now owned or possessed by the State in the Kanawha River improve- 
 ment, and the chutes, dams, wing-dams, channels, and all other work heretofore done 
 in the Kanawha River, together with jurisdiction in and over the Kanawha Riverfront 
 its mouth to the mouth of Gauley River, and over the New River from the mouth of 
 Gauley to the mouth of Greenbrier River, and over the Greenbrier River from its 
 mouth to the mouth of Howard and Anthony Creeks, and from the mouth of said 
 creeks to the State-line; and also the rights, powers, and franchises to construct, 
 maintain, and operate a good and substantial through water-line from the mouth of 
 the Kanawha River to the Chesapeake Bay, so far as the said water-line shall pass 
 through and be located in this State : Provided, That the rights, privileges, and fran- 
 chises herein mentioned shall never be so exercised as to affect or impair any right 
 now vested in the Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad Company, by or under the laws of 
 this State. 
 
 2. The board of public works is hereby authorized to appoint nine commissioners on 
 the part of the State, one to be chosen from each judicial circuit, and five or more of 
 whom may act, to confer and negotiate with any commissioners or persons who may 
 be authorized by law to act for and on behalf of the United States, in regard to a trans- 
 fer to the United States, of the said rights, privileges, and franchises. Three-fourths of 
 the said commissioners at least shall consent to any contract or agreement that maybe 
 proposed touching the said transfer. 
 
 3. That the said commissioners shall, as soon as a contract is proposed to them, which 
 they or three-fourths of them may deem acceptable and just, transmit it to the gover- 
 nor of this State, who shall submit the same to the legislature for their action if it be 
 in session at the time, and if the legislature be not then in session, he shall convene it 
 as speedily as possible for that purpose. 
 
 4. That the State of Virginia be respectfully requested to take concurrent action in 
 the matter referred to in the foregoing resolutions, and that a copy of the same be sent 
 by the governor of this State to the governor of Virginia, with the request that he lav 
 them before the legislature of that State. 
 
 5. That a copy of these resolutions be sent to each of the Senators and Representa- 
 tives in Congress from this State, and they be requested to lay the same before Con- 
 gress ; and to the governor of the following States: Virginia, Maryland, Ohio Ken- 
 tucky, Tennessee, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Arkansas, Kansas, Iowa, Wisconsin 
 Minnesota, Nebraska, Pennsylvania, and North Carolina. wibcousiu, 
 
 Adopted December 21, 1872. 
 
 WM. W. MILLER 
 Speaker of the Souse of lMeaate* 
 D. D. JOHNSON 9 
 President of the Senate. 
 
TRANSPORT ATION TO THE SEABOARD. 487 
 
 State of West Virginia, 
 Clerk's Office, Souse of Delegates, Charleston, October 24, 1873. 
 I, J. B. Peyton, clerk of the house of delegates, and as such keeper of the rolls, do 
 certify that the above and foregoing is a true and correct copy of a joint resolution, 
 entitled "joint resolution No. 10, providing for the transfer of certain rights and fran- 
 chises of the State of West Virginia to the United States," passed by the legislature oi 
 West Virginia, December 21, 1872, as appears from the records of my office. Given 
 under my hand this the 24th day of October, 1873. 
 
 J. B. PEYTON, 
 Cleric of the Bouse of Delegates, and keeper of the rolls. 
 
 Office of the Board of Public, Works of the State of West Virginia. 
 At a meeting of the board of public works, held in the office of the secretary of 
 state on the 15th day of March, 1873, the following gentlemen were selected and ap- 
 pointed commissioners, as required by joint resolution No. 10, of the legislature, at 
 the session of 1872-'73, authorizing the appointment of commissioners to confer and 
 negotiate with any commissioners or persons who may be authorized by law to act for 
 and on behalf of the United States, in regard to a transfer to the United States of the 
 rights, privileges, and franchises now owned or possessed by the State in the Kanawha 
 River improvement, viz : A. J. Pannell, from the first judicial circuit ; James Morrow, 
 jr., from the second judicial circuit ; William H. Travers, from the third judicial cir- 
 cuit ; Charles P. Scott, from the fifth judicial circuit; Jonathan M. Bennett, from the 
 sixth judicial circuit ; William A. Quarrier, from the seventh judicial circuit ; A. T. 
 Caperton, from the eighth judicial circuit; and John Douglas, from the ninth judicial 
 circuit. And at another meeting of said board, held at the same place, on the 19th 
 day of March, 1873, James D. Armstrong was appointed from the fourth judicial cir- 
 cuit. 
 
 C. HEDRICH, 
 Secretary of the State and ex officio Secretary of the Board. 
 
 Col. Geokge E. Floyd : 
 
 Mr. Chairman, if the knowledge of the wild country which lies south 
 of here, in the valley, would be of any service to the committee I could 
 perhaps give some information upon that point. I am entirely familiar 
 with the valley of Coal Eiver, tributary to the Kanawha, ten miles below, 
 where it comes into the valley. It is an extensive valley that is pro- 
 bably a hundred miles, or, I would say, at least sixty miles wide ; it is a 
 water-shed. It has as fine timber upon it as any valley in West Vir- 
 ginia, having poplar, oak, black- walnut, white-walnut, and other hard 
 woods. It is almost untouched. The farther you go south the heavier 
 are the coal-fields. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Heavier than here 1 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir; probably the Kanawha gentlemen will excuse me in 
 saying that it is heavier. After you leave that valley you fall into the great 
 valley of the Guyandotte, which empties into the Ohio just here, which 
 is a hundred and fifty miles long and has a water- shed of one hundred 
 miles at its head, or source. It takes rise in the Cumberland range of 
 mountains. It is a wilderness. It has also timber of the same cliarac- 
 ter. The mountains are larger as you go in that direction ; they are 
 higher. There are more veins of coal above water level in the moun- 
 tains, and they are closer to the water's edge as a general thing, than 
 these at Coleburgh. They have the canuel coal. There is a vein of from 
 4 to 5 feet thick that passes generally through the country there. It 
 does through the Guyandotte Valley, the principal portion of the val- 
 ley, particularly about Logan Court-House, and that portion of the coun- 
 try which is about seventy-five miles from the Ohio River. That forest, 
 you may say, is untouched as yet. It is a wilderness. You then pass 
 from that to the Great Sandy Valley, a third fork known as the Tug 
 Fork, the dividing line between Kentucky and West Virginia at pres- 
 
488 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 ent. It takes its rise also in Tazewell County and spreads all along that 
 region. It forms a river at Louisa. Twenty-five miles from fl»«"» 
 Eiver there is what is called the Louisa Fork, running parallel witu m 
 Sandy. It takes its rise in this same range of mountains, just where 
 the Clinch Eiver and the Tennessee water sets in, and its water-shed m 
 about the same. In fact, that water-shed extends to where the 'Kentucky 
 Eiver water-shed sets in under the Cumberland range. There is the 
 Little Sandy and the Licking opposite Cincinnati. Those two streams 
 come in between the Sandy Valley and the Kentucky Valley and pass 
 on to the Ohio. I am not familiar with the country after you pass on 
 to the Licking waters. . . 
 
 I have been all through the other region. It abounds in coal of the 
 most superior character, cannel coal, bituminous, and splint. The 
 largest veins of bituminous coal which I have ever examined and meas- 
 ured myself are 12 feet thick. The largest of the cannel coal is 5 feet 
 thick, and the largest of the splint coal is 6 feet thick. All these 
 streams have their tributaries, which pass out, and it seems that the 
 country is formed nearly on a level. For instance, the Sandy Eiver, 
 which has been carefully surveyed for the first seventy miles up that 
 stream, has only one foot and three inches of fall to the mile. It grows a 
 little more rapid for the next twenty-five miles, and then about a hun- 
 dred miles from its mouth there is this same cliff, or gorge, which passes 
 through, but nothing like to the extent of the one which you have just 
 passed here to-day on the New Eiver. There is what we call the roughs 
 of the river. They are not more than nine miles long on the Guyan- 
 dotte Eiver, and probably about the same on the other. Then the basin 
 of the county of Wyoming comes in like the Upper New Eiver and 
 Greenbrier do here. Upon the falls upon the Tug Eiver comes in the 
 McDowell basin, that spreads out with its streams which are capable of 
 floating timber, and is not so rapid by any means as it is in these roughs. 
 It seems to take another step there. Then you pass on about fifty miles 
 and you come to the summit of the Cumberland Mountains, and there 
 you meet the Tennessee or the Clinch Eiver, that passes on. In this 
 direction comes the New Eiver water, that makes the basin clear on to 
 the Blue Eidge, dividing this east and west; 
 
 There is the finest iron-ore on the head of the New Eiver, right upon 
 its banks, which is probably known in the world. I am not an iron 
 man or master, and never dealt in that sort of thing, but I have paid a 
 good deal of attention to it. 1 know of a vein 6 feet thick on the banks 
 of the New Eiver. 
 
 W. F. Goshorn, president of the Kanawha Eiver board, examined: 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. State, if you please, the history of the improvement by the 
 State of Virginia and by the State of West Virginia, as the successor 
 of the State of Virginia, of the Kanawha Eiver, and the amount of tolls 
 levied, &c. . 
 
 Answer. I can only tell you for the last two or three years. I have 
 only been in the board about three years. 
 
 Q. When were these improvements made? 
 
 A. They were commenced in about 1S'22, I think. 
 
 Q. By the State of Virginia? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. By what law? Were they levied by act of the State of Virginia? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 489 
 
 Q. Have you ever heard of any act of Congress authorizing it? 
 
 A. I have not. 
 
 Q. Was the Kanawha regarded as a navigable river, or have you ever 
 heard that question discussed? 
 
 A. No, sir, I never have. 
 
 Q. What is the amount of tolls levied ? 
 
 A. The aggregate is about $15,000 a year. 
 
 Q. What has been done with that money ? 
 
 A. It is expended on the river. 
 
 Q. It is a mere mode of collecting a tax for the improvement of the 
 river 1 ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever heard of its being called in question — I mean as to 
 its legality? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I never have. 
 
 Q. Can you state how many days of the year the Kanawha is open to 
 navigation ? 
 
 A. Some years it is open all the time — the whole of the year. 
 
 Q. Is it in any way impeded by the lowness of the water ; how many 
 days is navigation prevented by the shoalness or lowness of the water? 
 
 A. The small boats always run. For years it has never happened 
 that they have not come up. 
 
 Q. What is the draught of these boats? '' 
 
 A. They draw about 2 feet. 
 
 Q. How many months in the year is it open to the navigation of the 
 smaller salt-boats? 
 
 A. I suppose an average of eight months in the year — from seven to 
 eight months would be an average. 
 
 Q. How many months is it open for the navigation of the coal-barges 
 carrying four hundred tons ? 
 
 A. I suppose seven or eight months on an average, taking a series of 
 years. There is more water in this river in the low water than in the ' 
 Ohio. They can go down here when they cannot in the Ohio. 
 
 Ee-examination of Judge Camden : 
 
 Mr. Chairman, I omitted the fact, in connection with salt on the Elk, 
 which perhaps may be of service in regard to the investigation now 
 before the committee, that salt has been, made from the natural flow of 
 water at Webster Court-House, on the Elk, about forty miles above the 
 point at which I stated that this. New York company were manufactur- 
 ing salt. It has been made from the flow of water without sinking. 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Where does the Elk empty into the Kanawha ? 
 
 A. Just below this place — at the lower end of Charlestown. 
 
 Examination of M. F. Matjky. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Please state to the committee any information you have in 
 reference to iron-ore on the line of this proposed canal. 
 
 Answer. I have just returned from an expedition along the region of 
 iron-ore from Lynchburgh up. Beginning at Lynchburgh you come 
 into a belt of magnetic ore which is very rich, and is as high as sixty- 
 eight or seventy. A great deal of it will run up to sixty-seven or sixty- 
 eight. From there you come along up to the mouth of North Eiver, 
 
490 TRANSPORTATION TO -THE SEABOARD. 
 
 and a half a mile up *u come to the brown _ hematite banks which ^are 
 worked by the Powhatan Iron Company, six miles fjove Busbmm iQ 
 They have been worked for a great number of years. Then ^wors is 
 surlce-deposits, but they have been worked down so far • that they have 
 had to begin tunneling You go up § t h* n™? 11 about three miles 
 farther and you come to Mr. isiaay s irouwuiM. *- 
 
 Powhatan Iron Works Company. From there nptwo and a half miles 
 vou come to the old Buena Vista banks, working under ground nve 
 Lparatedeposits, very heavy on the surface. The surface ore is so rich 
 that they 3d very well afford to take it all to the canal-boats and ship 
 it bodilfdown. But they have been working on the one nearest to the 
 canal. They began on the surface and finally got down about 60 feet. 
 That is shipped down to eighteen miles above Lynchburgh and there 
 worked it up. The iron made from that produces a number one Ameri- 
 can pig-iron, which brings $48 a ton. The principal market is Balti- 
 more, it going down the James Biver to Bichmond. Above that you 
 come to the old Buena Vista furnaces, where an ore-bank was worked i 
 very many years ago, but the timber has been principally cut off the 
 land now and that furnace is entirely out of blast. They get along 
 there to calcareous marl, which is used altogether in the place of lime- 
 stone. It is fine and mixes very readily with iron ore in the furnaces. 
 That Buena Vista ore takes about a hundred and sixty-five bushels of 
 charcoal to make a ton of pig-metal. There are very many other de- 
 posits in Rockbridge County which were not at all worked, principally 
 of the brown hematite variety. 
 
 Going up the James River you pass by numerous furnaces which have 
 been worked in by-gone years; some are now going again into opera- 
 tion, being principally purchased or leased by men from the North. 
 
 As you go up Alleghany County you come into the old Lucy Selina 
 and Australia banks ; they are worked by the Longdale Iron Company. 
 They have a seam there of the same brown hematite 25 feet thick. They 
 have worked it down 300 feet into the earth, and still have the ore as 
 heavy as ever below them, and have traced it over the surface for three 
 and a half miles continuously, with outlying spurs many miles farther. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. What was the per cent. ? 
 
 A. On the last blast of the Lucy Selina furnace they tapped 48.07. 
 It is a very remarkable instance that they only used seven pounds of 
 limestone to the one hundred pounds of ore for the flux. That is half 
 what is ordinarily used. They did run it down to five, and made a fair 
 iron, but found seven pounds was the best they could use. That is very 
 hard-working ore, and they want red hematites or fossiliferous or mag- 
 netics, or, better still, all, to mix and make it work easily in the fur- 
 naces. It chills the furnace so that they have a great deal of difficulty 
 ' in getting it to work. 
 
 The analysis shows no zinc in it, but there is a very heavy ring of 
 zinc formed around the throat of the furnaces on every blast, and it is 
 to that they attribute the bad working of the ore. It makes a quality 
 of pig-metal that rates No. 1 charcoal. In fact, it is a charcoal-iron. It 
 was selling in Baltimore at the time I was there, in August, for $56 
 They have succeeded so well with the old Lucy Selina furnace, produc- 
 ing six or seven tons per day, that they have now torn that down and 
 put up a new one producing from ten to twelve tons, intending to use 
 charcoal in the summer when the roads are good, and in the winter to 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 491 
 
 use Kanawha coal when the roa'ds are bad. They have to haul that 
 iron about seven miles to the railroad. 
 
 From there up there is a large mine run by Mr. McClure. His father 
 is the superintendent of the Buffalo Gap Steel and Iron Works, this side 
 of Staunton, and there are three other banks opened in that immediate 
 vicinity. Coming from there west you are still on the line of the ores, 
 but very little has been looked into them on that point. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What is the difference in the relative value between charcoal-iron 
 and pig-iron made from coal ? 
 
 A. Taking it as a general rule, charcoal-iron is the most valuable. 
 
 Q. How much more than the other ? 
 
 A. I think charcoal-iron is now rating at about fifty-nine or sixty 
 dollars in the New York market, and I think that No. 1 Scotch, which 
 is made from coke, I believe, was $48 at the last quotation. Those were 
 last Tuesday's rates. 
 
 Q. How much is the pig-iron worth, made from ordinary coal, without 
 coking; what kind of coal do you use? 
 
 A. It is a splint coal which makes the iron without coking, and it pro- 
 duces an iron which many claim is equal to charcoal-iron. Some say 
 that it is just a little bit inferior. 
 
 Q. There is some difference, of course, in the price between charcoal- 
 iron and the iron made from coke? 
 
 A. Tes, sir ; charcoal-iron ranks highest as used for car- wheels and 
 other purposes, requiring toughness. 
 
 Q. To what extent have forests along these iron mines been used up? 
 
 A. At some of the furnaces they have been entirely cut off. Some 
 few of these furnaces have been too far from the wood. The old Bu- 
 ena Vista stopped many years ago, and the secondary growth is almost 
 heavy enough to be used. It has been out of blast for fifteen years. 
 At the Anderson furnace, abosre the mouth of the North Eiver, on the 
 James, I am told that the timber has been very much cut off. 
 
 Q. Can you state how many acres of woodland is usually consumed 
 in running a blast furnace for a thousand tons of iron, or thereabouts; 
 can you give me any relative proportions? 
 
 A. A cord of wood makes forty bushels of charcoal, and a furnace 
 producing six or seven tons a day uses up two hundred acres of ordi- 
 nary Virginia forest. . 
 
 By Mr. CONKLING: 
 
 Q. You spoke of the necessity of mingling ores. Will you state a little 
 more particularly why it is desirable to mingle those ores ? 
 
 A. It is not desirable in all cases to mix all the ores. You have to 
 take an analysis of them all, and have to see how they will act. The dif- 
 ferent ores will contain different materials, some less phosphorous, and 
 some less sulphur, and these different elements will neutralize each 
 other, and will produce a neutral iron of a better grade. 
 
 Q. That is your general remark. My question referred to the partic- 
 ular theater of which you were speaking. You spoke of a furnace, 
 saying they needed to mix with it red ore and some other ore, or, better 
 than any, all of them. I wish to ask you for information in that par- 
 ticular case. What is the difficulty of that ore, and what do you ac- 
 complish there by this mingling of other ores ? 
 
 A. The main result which you accomplish is that by the mixture of 
 them, if one, for instance, has a deleterious substance in it, and another 
 
492 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 a substance in it which will remove and neutralize it, it is, therefore, 
 
 clearly best to mix those. . , , f T rou id, in 
 
 Q. That is very apparent; but I was seeking to learn, if ^1 ^o^m 
 
 that particular case, what was the quality and nat ™ o/*^ ^ 
 
 used, and in what it was wanting, and which of these other oies sup 
 
 Pl l d ThTquality which injures that more particularly is the presence 
 
 °T^^Zlr^lL mingling of ores is to neutralize that 
 
 Z1 A.' Of course, if you take half a ton of that ore and half a ton of 
 another and mix them there would be less zinc in i that mixture. 
 
 Q. You mean that that is the necessity which there exists? 
 
 j^ "Ygs sir. 
 
 Q. Does the iron chill in consequence of the zinc? 
 
 A. It chills the furnaces ; it is extremely refractory ; it is extremely 
 hard to smelt down. At least that is the explanation that they made 
 there of the chilling of the furnace. They laid it all to the zinc, and I 
 myself saw nothing else in the analysis which was shown to nie that 
 would affect it. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. What is the cost of manufacturing pig-iron at the furnaces, without 
 regard to the transportation from the furnaces — say, near Lynchburgh! 
 
 A. At those furnaces which I visited they were rather unwilling to 
 give me any details of the cost, but, as near as I can learn, their char- 
 coal-iron now costs them from twenty-five to twenty-seven dollars a ton. 
 They expected to do it very much cheaper when they could get Kanawha 
 coal. 
 
 Q. Do they use any coal at any of those Lynchburgh furnaces ? 
 
 A. ]STo, sir ; charcoal entirely. They would have to bring their coal 
 up from the Biehmond coal-field and have it coked ; but I do not know 
 of a single furnace in that region that uses any coal at all except char- 
 coal ; that is along the line of the proposed canal. Now they have two 
 furnaces, both this side of Staunton, using Kanawha coal. One is the 
 Elizabeth and the other is the Buffalo Gap Steel and Iron Company. 
 They use Ooleburgh coal so much that they have erected another fur- 
 nace. The manager told me that he used mostly Kanawha coal and a 
 little bit of charcoal. At one time he got out of charcoal, and had to 
 run on the Kanawha coal, and he found it took from one and three-quar- 
 ters to two tons of the raw coal to make a ton of metal. 
 
 Q. Is there any furnace running in West Virginia in this part of the 
 country now 1 
 
 A. No, sir ; there are several projected here in the valley. 
 
 Q. Where have they tried the splint coal in this valley to produce pig- 
 iron? 
 
 A. Newport, Ky., Ironton, Ohio, Wheeling, W. Va., and also Martins- 
 ville. 
 
 Q. Has it been pronounced a success ? 
 
 A. The Mendenhalls, who tried it in Wheeling, said it was superior to 
 any coal of which they had knowledge in the Alleghany coal-field and 
 that it made a quality of iron which brought the highest price. Also 
 the furnace of Newport, Ky., gave me details of a week's run using 
 HamilPs Creek coal with Connellsville, Pa., coke, using the Mis- 
 souri Mountain ores as' their ores to get the iron. Of that mixture of 
 fuel it only took one and three-quarter tons to produce a ton of pig- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 493 
 
 metal, and it would take of coke from three to three and a half tons of 
 all bituminous to produce about the same results. They also tried it at 
 Ironton, but they came to the conclusion that the Ashland coal was 
 much nearer and they preferred using that. 
 
 Q. What is the quality of Ashland coal ; is that a splint coal ? 
 
 A. I have never seen it. 
 
 Q. They make pig-iron with that without any coke, do they not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. The Low Moor Iron Company, situated in Clifton Forge, 
 is preparing to ship iron-ores to the West. They are going to ship 
 •them extensively down to Ashland to have them practically tried in the 
 furnace, to see what they are good for and what they will bear; but I 
 think they intend to continue to ship them steadily down there, occu- 
 pying the position for the East which the Missouri mountain iron does 
 for the West. It is certainly the intention of all of these ore-regions in 
 that portion of Virginia to ship iron here to the coal. That seems to be 
 the universal rule in almost all iron-producing districts — that the iron 
 goes to the coal, rather tban the coal to the iron. You have undoubt- 
 edly noticed that there was a furnace on New Eiver which was being 
 put up, and there is a contemplated furnace now going up at the mouth 
 of Davis Creek. It is not going up at present, but the company intends 
 to locate it there. The ores for that purpose will come from the Bast. 
 Cyrus Mendenhall, who is one of the owners of the furnace in Newport, 
 Ky., has recently bought both coal and bottom land on the river, some 
 twenty-five acres, for the erection of his furnace and rolling-mills. 
 
 Examination of B. W. Byrne, State superintendent of free schools: 
 Mr. Chairman, I have not heard the statements of all the other parties, 
 and I do not like to go over the same field again. My intimate acquaint- 
 ance, however, with the country that would fall into this line is mainly 
 on the northeast side of the New Biver. I believe 1 am intimately ac- 
 quainted with all the tributaries that fall into the Great Kanawha and 
 New Bivers from that southeast side. I should regard the timber as 
 one of the most important items in the development of a great improve- 
 ment, such as you speak of, and mainly owing to the fact that I have 
 seen it stated, and I believe from what I know of the history of the 
 country, and of the timber in the country, that there is almost one-half 
 of the entire surplus hard-wood of the whole country in West Virginia. 
 It is believed by some who have written on the subject, and who have 
 examined the question, that half of the entire surplus hard- wood, which 
 is not necessary for use in the particular locality, is situated in this 
 State. 
 
 It so happens that the northern portion of this State is the improved 
 part of it, and that almost all, or three-quarters of the surplus hard- 
 wood even that is in this State would fall into this line. The Elk Biver 
 runs off, not at right angles with the Kanawha, but it runs through a 
 distance of about two hundred miles, heading against that great Cum- 
 berland chain, which is called by half a dozen different names, between 
 the head of the Elk and the head of the Tennessee waters. All that 
 country falls into this Kanawha Valley. I suppose that there is eight- 
 tenths of the country south of the Baltimore and Ohio Bailroad and 
 southwest of the Baltimore and Ohio Bailroad that is yet in the native 
 forest, eight-tenths of the entire area of the State. That is covered 
 mostly with hard-wood, and in addition to that, excepting some in Ken- 
 tacky, and some in Tennessee, and probably the mountain part of 
 Georgia, there is not very much surplus hard-wood, I am told, in any of 
 the States. Even Ohio has no very great surplus, it has been said. The 
 
494 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 pine timber or the softer timbers predominate in other sections of the 
 country. Now, if a great line of this kind has the timber, which is 
 being gradually exhausted, I should think that the Atlantic slope would 
 command more of the timber, that there would be more demand lor it 
 on that slope than in any other part of tbe country. I should regard 
 this communication as a very important one, both East and West. 
 Still the present communication West is ample for carrying, timber, be- 
 cause all these rivers that are not navigable for boats, timbers can be 
 brought down in the logs ready for the sawyer, and it has so' diversified 
 and cut up the streams all over this West Virginia country that you 
 can scarcely find a tree which you could not get into a stream that 
 ■would float it in the distance of a mile until you get on to the Alleghany 
 region, where the mountains take a different direction. They are there 
 sometimes pretty broad between the streams, so that all the timber 
 gravitating toward this stream is accessible pretty nearly at a small 
 cost. It is a very rugged country almost everywhere, and there is very 
 little level land, but it is, all good land. 
 
 Coal underlies, as has been stated by Professor Ansted, all the lands 
 out of which the tributaries of this river flow up to this great chain of 
 mountains, running from the Tennessee waters to the waters putting 
 into the upper Ohio, and for a width even greater than he spoke of. 
 There are one or two very fine coal seams farther down the river than 
 this. 
 
 Adjourned. 
 
 Cincinnati, Ohio, Monday, October 29, 1873. 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment. 
 
 Statement of Richard Smith, esq., of the joint committee Chamber of Com- 
 merce and Board of Trade of Cincinnati. 
 
 Mr. Chairman, the estimated value of the commerce of the Ohio 
 Eiyer between Pittsburgh and Cairo, nine hundred and sixty-seven 
 miles, m 1868, prepared by Milner . Boberts, United States engineers, 
 who had charge of the river, is as follows : 
 
 Whedlnf'wVa 8150,000,000 
 
 wneenug, w Va _. _ 30,000,000 
 
 Pomeroy Ohio 8 000 000 
 
 Irontou, Ohio 5 000 000 
 
 lo^utb^°::::;:::::::::::--- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::;::::: $>Z'Z 
 ^X; 1 ^ :-:■:::::::::::::::::.::::::::::: h:Z:Z 
 
 Cincinnati, Ohio „ S'^ r ^S 
 
 Madison, Ind 170,000,000 
 
 Jeffersouville. Ind 1-2,000,000 
 
 Louisville, Ky 5,000,000 
 
 New Albany, Ind 15,000,000 
 
 Evausville, Ind - 15,000,000 
 
 Wabash River, Ind 12,000,000 
 
 Southland, Ky 15,000,000 
 
 Paducah, Ky 30,000,000 
 
 Cairo, 111 40,009,000 
 
 354 other points 20,000,000 
 
 156,000,000 
 
 7 16. 000, 000 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 495 
 
 Value of imports and exports by railroad and river at Cincinnati, Ohio. 
 
 Year. 
 
 Imports. 
 
 Exports. 
 
 1870 
 
 $312. 978, 665 
 283, 796, 219 
 317, 646, 608 
 
 $193, 517, 690 
 
 1871 i 
 
 179, 848, 427 
 200, 607, 040 
 
 1872 
 
 
 
 Quantity of some of tlie principal imports, chiefly by river. 
 
 Year. 
 
 Cotton. 
 
 Coal. 
 
 Salt. 
 
 1870 
 
 Bales. 
 153, 639 
 230, 411 
 122, 128 
 
 Bushels. 
 30, 300, 000 
 22, 972, 000 
 30, 790, 795 
 
 Bbls. 4' saclcs. 
 289, 394 
 
 1871 
 
 258, 095 
 
 1872 
 
 347, 463 
 
 
 
 Year. 
 
 Tons. 
 
 Pieces. 
 
 Bundles. 
 
 Pig, tons. 
 
 1870 
 
 71, 955 
 67, 591 
 79, 961 
 
 148, 403 
 
 89, 561 
 
 134, 670 
 
 34,245 
 
 9,459 
 
 10, 569 
 
 53, 668 
 
 1871 
 
 56, 758 
 
 1872 
 
 112. 753 
 
 
 
 Years. 
 
 Hhds. 
 
 Bbls. 
 
 Boxes. 
 
 1870 
 
 46, 563 
 
 56,283 
 45, 877 
 
 9,961 
 
 9,083 
 
 11, 176 
 
 53, 961 
 
 61, 497 
 
 1871 , 
 
 1872 
 
 59, 535 
 
 
 
 Those are figures obtained by the chamber of commerce, which cor- 
 rects the statistics daily of the imports and exports, but you will dis- 
 cover a large excess of imports over exports. A large amount of exports 
 go out from here by wagons, and in all sorts of ways, of which there is 
 no mode of keeping account. That is the explanation of the exports 
 being much less than the imports. We collect the imports more thor- 
 oughly, getting the manifests of the steamboats and railroads. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Question. Where are the details of that statement to be found 1 
 Answer. In the report of the chamber of commerce, a copy of which 
 I can place in your hands. 
 Q. How many pounds are there in a hogshead of tobacco ? 
 A. It varies from 1,200 to 2,200 pounds. 
 
496 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 of freight, on fourth class, to the points named durin g 1872. 
 
 Water. 
 
 Average rates • 
 
 Points. 
 
 To New York... 
 To Pittsburgh . 
 To Louisville... 
 To Saint Louis. 
 To Memphis — 
 To New Orleaus 
 
 Rail. 
 
 Cents. 
 45 to 60 
 
 25 
 10 to 18 
 
 30 
 30 to 66 
 45 to 93 
 
 Cents. 
 
 20 to 25 
 10 to 15 
 20 to 25 
 25 to 40 
 30 to 50 
 
 Statement of freight carried oh) the railroads terminating at Cincinnati. 
 
 Year. 
 
 Local. 
 
 Through. 
 
 
 Tons. 
 3,284 883 
 4, 005, 536 
 2, 725, 574 
 
 Tons. 
 
 2, 577, 887 
 
 1-<71 
 
 2, 389, 315 
 
 
 4, 490, 788 
 
 
 
 Value of manufactures of Cincinnati, with cash capital invested, and value 
 
 of real esteite occupied. 
 
 Year. 
 
 Value of pro- 
 ducts 
 
 Cash capital. 
 
 Value of real 
 estate. 
 
 1870 
 1871 
 lb72 
 
 $127,459,021 
 135, 988, 365 
 143, 486, 675 
 
 851, 673, 741 
 50, 520, 179 
 55, 265, 129 
 
 $37, 124, 119 
 40,443,553 
 45, 164, 954 
 
 When we have no water the rail rates are much higher. These rates 
 are compared when the river and rail are both running. Sometimes we 
 have no river, and then the railroads charge whatever they please, and 
 generally block up so that they cannot carry freight at all. They block 
 up and give notice that they cannot take freight beyond a certain point, 
 say from beyond Louisville or Nashville. 
 
 Tonnage and value of boats enrolled at the port of Cincinnati, Ohio. 
 
 Year. 
 
 Tonnage. 
 
 Value. 
 
 1870 
 
 53, 130. 96 
 68, 667. 59 
 73, 604. 54 
 
 §1, 727, 090 
 o 7^4 700 
 
 1871 
 
 1872 
 
 3,331,000 
 
 
 Tonnage built in Cincinnati. 
 
 Year. 
 
 1870 
 1871 
 
 1872 
 
 Tonnage. 
 
 20, 838. 60 
 12, 774. 59 
 16, 312. 40 
 
 Value. 
 
 $845, 000 
 883,800 
 700, 400 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 497 
 
 Tonnage of steamboats and barges running between Cincinnati and other 
 ports in 1870, 1871, and 1872. 
 
 Tons. 
 
 1870 7S,109 
 
 1*71 81,808 
 
 1872 85,712 
 
 Number of arrivals and departures at the port of Cincinnati of steamboats, 
 no record being kept of arrival or departures of barges. 
 
 Year. 
 
 Arrivals. 
 
 Departures. 
 
 1870 
 
 2,712 
 2, 377 
 2,071 
 
 2,726 
 
 1871 ..' 
 
 2, :J56 
 
 1872 
 
 2,235 
 
 
 
 The facts presented show the magnitude of the river-trade, and the 
 importance of improving the navigation of the natural water-channels. 
 Upon these the country must chiefly rely for protection against high 
 rates of freight. Whatever the Government may do in the way of regu- 
 lating railroads, the public will be compelled to rely chiefly upon the great 
 and most reliable regulation — competition. 
 
 An eminent United States engineer, being fully informed as to the 
 magnitude of the commerce of the Ohio Eiver, stated that it would re- 
 quire two double-track railroads, one on each bank, to move the 
 property passing over that stream. A few facts will illustrate this pro- 
 position : There is received at Cincinnati for consumption at this place 
 and points below, annually, 75,000j000*bushelsof coal. To carry this by 
 rail would require fifty trains per day, each train consisting of fifteen 
 cars. The cost of moving coal by river averages from five-eighths to 
 seven-eighths of one mill per ton per mile. The cost of moving fourth- 
 class freight by rail, for long distances, is from 12 to 15 mills per ton 
 per mile. 
 
 The cost of bringing coal to Cincinnati by rail, last winter, was 7 
 mills per ton per mile. What the charges for transporting coal on east- 
 ern railroads is we are not prepared to say, but it is doubtless much 
 less than on roads centering at Cincinnati, the latter not being prepared 
 to do a coal business. Anthracite coal, however, can be moved much 
 cheaper than bituminous, a ton of the former being much less in bulk 
 than the latter. The risks of navigation are also in favor of rail traffic ; 
 but still, locomotives cannot compete with water in moving heavy 
 freight, nor could this business be done at all by rail without an 
 enormous increase in railroad facilities. As stated, it would require a 
 double-track railroad to move the coal alone, and then at an increased 
 cost that would be a severe tax upon consumers. 
 
 But coal is only one item. The value of the coal received at and 
 passing this point, at 15 cents per bushel, is $11,250,000, whereas the. 
 total commerce of the Ohio Eiver is $716,000,000. This is greater than 
 the total foreign imports of the United States for 1872-'73, the exact 
 amount of the latter being $663,410,597. Iron is now a large item of 
 our river commerce — not only crude and manufactured iron, but iron- 
 ore. The latter is brought into and up the Ohio Eiver from Tennessee, 
 Alabama, and Missouri, and being mixed with Ohio, Kentucky, and 
 Virginia ores, is smelted, producing an excelleut article of metal. This 
 is so much better than iron manufactured from one class of ore that 
 32 ts 
 
498 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 metal smelted from mixed ores is sent back to Saint Louis from the 
 Ohio River. The cost of moving iron-ore up the river is an average, ot 
 4 mills per ton per mile. . „. .,, 
 
 The average cost of freight from Cincinnati to New Orleans is d£ imlJ s 
 per ton per mile. Of this ten per cent, is charged for passing tur ougn 
 the Louisville and Portland Canal, an improvement now owned by the 
 United States, with the exception of five shares, of the nominal value ot 
 $1(10 each, held by trustees, who run a bank upon the income ot the 
 canal. Congress is tardily approaching the point of taking possession 
 of this improvement and reducing the tolls to a point sufficient to cover 
 expenses, but it is feared that the commerce of the Ohio River will suffer 
 the imposition of an exorbitant tax another year before the nghtiul 
 owner takes possession of the works. 
 
 An impression prevails that for transportation purposes the natural 
 water-channels are diminishing in value and importance. The figures 
 presented are sufficient to dispel this idea. Important as railroads are, 
 the cities located on the water-channels, if these were destroyed, would 
 languish and die. Besides, as the products of the Ohio Valley increase, 
 and as the products of the West increase, rivers will grow in import- 
 ance. What is called cheap transportation is not possible by rail. It 
 is possible by river, and to these channels attention must every year be 
 more and more directed, for the movement of heavy freight, including 
 grain and provisions. 
 
 Furthermore, if your committee will pass down the Ohio River, you 
 will discover millions of acres of good lands uncultivated. This, when 
 farmers discover the folly of going to the far West, where corn, worth 
 50 cents per bushel in this market, is used for fuel, will be cultivated, 
 and the products will swell the already large volume of trade passing 
 up and down the river. 
 
 The object of the facts and suggestions thus presented is not to in- 
 dicate the mode of improving or extending water communications, but 
 to impress your committee, and through you the Congress of the United 
 States, with the importance of water-channels. Not by rail alone, but 
 by water and rail, can cheap transportation be secured. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. What kind of boats are those referred to 1 
 
 A. Steamboats, barges, and everything registered at the custom- 
 house. You will understand that the coal brought to Cincinnati is 
 brought in barges and towed. Tow-boats tow from 100,000 to 500,000 
 or 000,000 in a single tow, bringing it down by the acre. The cost of 
 towing coal here, as we have it, is seven-tenths of a mill per ton per 
 mile. 
 
 Mr. Daniel C. Torrance, of Saint Louis, now living in New York, in- 
 formed me that he carried coal from Washington, Ind., to Cincinnati, at 
 G cents per bushel, on condition that the owners. of the mines would sell 
 it here at 13 cents. 
 
 Coal was then selling at 20 cents a bushel in Cincinnati, and he 
 thought that if he was going to carry it cheaply for them lie wanted the 
 consumers to have the advantage of it, and made the rates 6 cents per 
 bushel for transportation. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. I understand you Mr. Torrance told you so. Was it actually 
 done 1 ? ' - 
 
 A. Yes, sir; it was done; but I will state that it was not done to a 
 very large extent, And you will observe that in my report I have said 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 499 
 
 that none of our railroads are prepared for carrying coal, and they only 
 carry coal during famines, when the river is frozen up so that we cannot 
 get it by that route. 
 
 By Mr. Conkxing : 
 
 Q. Is the grade of that road to which you referred as carrying coal 
 so cheaply exceptionally easy; is it level and straight? 
 
 A. No, sir. In reference to iron, I will say that they bring the Iron- 
 Mountain ore and mis it with our ores, and the metal is so much better 
 for some purposes than the original metal that they ship it back to 
 Saint Louis and it is there manufactured. 
 
 The following resolutions have been adopted by our committee, and I 
 am instructed to present them to the United States Senate committee : 
 
 That the rapid development of our Western States and Territories, and the increasing 
 demands of commerce, require enlarged transportation facilities and lower rates of 
 freight between the West and the sea-board. 
 
 That no matter how many through lines of railroad may be constructed, nor how 
 easy the grades, they can never successfully compete with water communication, nor 
 meet the future wants of the country. 
 
 That these requirements of commerce can only be fully secured by improving our 
 rivers, enlarging our canals, and constructing one great central water-lino between the 
 Ohio River and tide-water. 
 
 That we believe it to be the duty of the General Government to improve our navi- 
 gable rivers, and to construct this great central water-line, under the supervision of 
 its own officers, and to remain under the control of the Government. 
 
 The improvements referred to, if carried out, would naturally stimulate competition 
 in the carrying-trade of the country, and thus secure cheap transportation. 
 
 BENJ. EGGLESTON, 
 RICHARD SMITH, 
 THOS. SHERLOCK, 
 
 Chamber of Commerce. 
 JNO. J. HENDERSON, 
 P. P. LANE, 
 
 alex. Mcdonald, 
 jas. j. hooker, 
 c. olhatee, 
 
 Board of Trade. 
 
 The following statement, showing the extent of the Ohio Eiver trade 
 in detail, was prepared by Milner Koberts, United States engineer, who 
 went along the river and procured statistics from each point : 
 
 Summary statement exhibiting the general character and estimated value of the river-trade and 
 commerce of the cities, towns, and principal landings along the Ohio Eiver. 
 
 Place. 
 
 Is? 
 
 Exports. 
 
 Imports. 
 
 Estimated 
 value. 
 
 Remarks. 
 
 
 
 Iron, coal, lumber, 
 oil, and general 
 manufactures. 
 
 Steamboat hulls 
 
 Cotton, iron-ore, 
 grain, &c. 
 
 Lumber, &c 
 
 Lumber, copper, 
 and iron-ore. 
 
 $150, 000, 000 
 
 2, 000, 000 
 
 1, 500, 000 
 
 100, 00 f ) 
 
 SCO, 000 
 
 10, coo 
 
 150, 000 
 
 50, 000 
 
 20, 000 
 
 25, 000 
 10, 000 
 
 See App. A. 
 
 Saw-mill Etui 
 
 Manchester 
 
 1,5 
 1.5 
 
 2 2 
 
 3!o 
 
 3.4 
 3.0 
 4.2 
 11.5 
 
 15.0 
 1G.7 
 
 Coal, railroad, and 
 
 iron mills. 
 Ship-yards, &e. 
 
 Glass House, Pa 
 
 Harbangh lYirnace 
 Chartier's Creek.. . 
 Ardesco Oil .Works . 
 Pork House 
 
 Refined oil 
 
 
 Iron-oro and metal 
 Saw-logs 
 
 
 Hulls and lumber . 
 Refined oil 
 
 Ship-yards, &.c. 
 
 
 Rollins-miil. 
 
 
 
 Steamboat and 
 
 Shonsetown 
 
 Brick Works 
 
 
 
 barge hulls. 
 Do. 
 
 Ornamental build- 
 ing blocks. 
 
 
 
 
 
500 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 General character and estimated value of tlw river-trade, #•«.- Continued. 
 
 Little Sewickley.. 
 
 Economy 
 
 Baker's Landing.. 
 
 Freedom 
 
 Rochester 
 
 Phillipburgh 
 
 Fire-Brick Works. . 
 
 Montgomery's Isl'd 
 
 Industry 
 
 Shipping Port 
 
 Smith's Ferry 
 
 Georgetown 
 
 Liverpool, Ohio . 
 
 Walker's Ldg., Ohio 
 
 Wellsville, Ohio. 
 
 Brooklyn, "Va 
 
 jS'ew Lexington, Va. 
 
 Port Homer, Ohio.. 
 Kiiw Cumberland, 
 
 Va. 
 Back Horse Land's 
 Freeman's Landing 
 Cables Eddy, Ohio 
 Sleubenville, Ohio. 
 
 Coal "Works, Ohio . 
 AVellsburgh,Va... 
 
 Bush Run, Ohio 
 
 "Warren, Ohio 
 
 Short Creek, Va... 
 Ohio River Coal Co 
 Deep Run, Ohio... 
 Slacktown, Va — 
 Martinsville, Ohio. 
 
 "Wheeling, "W. Va . . 
 
 Bridgeport, Ohio . .. 
 "West "Wheeling, 
 
 Ohio. 
 Richietown, Va . . . 
 
 Benwood, Va . 
 Eellaire, Ohio . 
 
 Belmont Coal W'rks 
 
 Wegee Coal "Works. 
 
 Ohio. 
 LiinestoneQuarries, 
 
 Ohio. 
 Moundsville, "W. Va 
 
 Mineral Hill Coal 
 Works. 
 
 Powhatan, Ohio... 
 
 Big Run, Ohio .... 
 
 Hornbrook's Land- 
 ing, Va. 
 
 Whiskey Run, Va. 
 
 5^ 
 
 17.0 
 18.0 
 23.3 
 24.0 
 25.5 
 
 25.5 
 27.0 
 
 31.9 
 
 33.5 
 
 34.8 
 
 40.0 
 
 40.0 
 44.0 
 
 46.0 
 
 47.9 
 
 50.6 
 53.0 
 
 53.5 
 
 5IJ. 
 
 58.0 
 59.0 
 65.0 
 67.5 
 
 73.0 
 73.8 
 
 78.7 
 60. 8 
 80 8 
 83.0 
 84.0 
 87.5 
 88.0 
 
 90.0 
 
 90.0 
 91.0 
 
 93.8 
 93.8 
 
 94.5 
 
 98.0 
 
 99.1 
 
 101.0 
 
 104.0 
 
 110.7 
 110.8 
 113.0 
 
 116.0 
 
 Exports. 
 
 Steamboat bulla, 
 
 boats, &c. 
 Manuiac tur'ea, 
 
 fruit, &c. 
 BuildiDg and curb 
 
 stone. 
 Refined oil, &c... 
 
 Copper, iron-ore, 
 &c, iron imple- 
 ments. 
 
 Imports. 
 
 Lumber. 
 
 Estimated 
 value. 
 
 Fire-brick and 
 building stone. 
 
 Buildiug and curb 
 stone. 
 
 Steamboat hulls 
 and boats. 
 
 Coal 
 
 Crude oil and 
 whisky. 
 
 Earthenware 
 
 Earthen pipe and 
 ware. 
 
 Steamboat hulls 
 and machinery. 
 
 Hulls 
 
 Baled hay and 
 country produce - 
 
 do 
 
 Fire-brick and clay 
 ware. 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 General manufac- 
 turing. 
 
 Coal 
 
 Paper, glass, cot- 
 ton, and woolen 
 goods. 
 
 Country produce.. 
 
 Grain, &c 
 
 do 
 
 Coal 
 
 Whisky 
 
 Coal 
 
 Iron manufactur- 
 ing, &c, 
 
 Coal, iron, nails, 
 glass, &c. 
 
 Coal and lumber . . 
 
 Paper, coal,harges, 
 &c. 
 
 Glass and iron . . . 
 
 Iron and nails 
 
 Produce aud rail- 
 road transfer. 
 Coal 
 
 do 
 
 Limestone 
 
 Coal and produce. 
 Coal 
 
 Flour and produce, 
 
 Whisky 
 
 Produce 
 
 Whisky . 
 
 Crude oil and lum- 
 ber. 
 Logs, iron, &c — 
 
 Lumber. 
 
 Groceries and dry 
 
 goods. 
 do 
 
 Coal, &c - 
 do . 
 
 Lumber, coal, &c 
 
 Lumber 
 
 Dry goods and gro- 
 ceries. 
 
 do 
 
 Coal 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 Lumber, coal, and 
 general freight. 
 
 Dry goods and gro- 
 ceries. 
 
 Dry goods, &c. 
 Dry goods 
 
 Grain . 
 
 Iron-ore, pig metal 
 
 and coal. 
 General freight... 
 
 Lumber 
 
 Lumber, produce, 
 
 &.B. 
 
 Ore and pig metal 
 
 Pig metal, &c . 
 Produce 
 
 Groceries and dry 
 
 Groceries and dry 
 
 goods. 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 Grain 
 
 Dry goods and gro- 
 ceries. 
 Grain 
 
 $5, 000 
 
 5,000 
 
 5,000 
 
 60,000 
 
 3, 400, 000 
 
 25, 000 
 20, 000 
 
 2,000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 25, 000 
 
 500, 000 
 
 6,000 
 150, 000 
 
 100, 000 
 
 100, 000 
 
 10,000 
 15, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 250, 000 
 
 100, 000 
 
 100, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 8, 000, 000 
 
 50, 000 
 300, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 15, 000 
 
 5,000 
 60, 000 
 
 5,000 
 
 10, 0?0 
 
 200, 000 
 
 30, 000, 000 
 
 100, 000 
 15, 000 
 
 150, 000 
 175, 000 
 
 160, 000 
 
 50,000 
 
 5,000 
 
 50, 000 
 
 30, 000 
 
 15, 000 
 5,000 
 15, 000 
 
 50,000 
 
 Remarks. 
 
 Ship-yards, &c. 
 
 Independent colo- 
 nists. 
 Quarries. 
 
 Refineries and all 
 kinds of hulls. 
 
 Erie Canal trade, 
 &c. 
 
 Quarries and fire- 
 brick works. 
 Quarries. 
 
 Ship.yards, &c. 
 
 Coal-mines. 
 
 Oil-wells. 
 
 Numerous earthen 
 works. 
 Do. 
 
 Boat-yards and 
 
 shops. 
 Saw-mills. 
 
 Extensive fire-clay 
 works. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Mines. 
 Manufacturing. 
 
 Coal-mines. 
 Coal-mines and 
 manufacturing. 
 
 Extensive works. 
 Largo distillery. 
 Mines. 
 General works. 
 
 See App. BU 
 
 Mines & saw-mills, 
 Mines, saw-mills, 
 
 &c. 
 Largo iron and 
 
 glass works. 
 Large iron-works. 
 
 Numerous and ex- 
 tensive mines. 
 Extensive ■ mines. 
 
 Quarries. 
 
 Mines, Ohio side. 
 
 Mines. 
 
 Flour-mills. 
 Distillery, 
 
 Distillery. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 501 
 
 Generdl character and estimated value of the river-trade, fyc. — Continued. 
 
 Place. 
 
 Sunfish.Ohio 
 
 Proctor's Run, Va. 
 
 Bearsville, Ohio. . . 
 Martinsville, Ohio, 
 
 Sardis, Ohio . 
 
 Lodi and Narrows 
 
 Run, Ohio. 
 Barnes's Run, Ohio 
 
 "Whitten's Landing, 
 
 Ohio. 
 Sistersville, Va . . - 
 
 Terrell s Landing, 
 
 Ohio. 
 Outer-view, Ohio . 
 Matamoras, Ohio. . 
 
 G-randview, Ohio. . 
 
 Landing, Va 
 
 Johnson's Landing, 
 
 Va, 
 "Union Land'g, Ohio. 
 "Wells's Land" 1 g, Va. 
 Rea's Run, Ohio 
 
 It 
 
 Landing, Va 
 
 Saint Mary's, Va. . . 
 
 Newport, Ohio 
 
 Newell'sRun, Ohio 
 
 Landing, Ohio > 
 
 Cow Creek, Va 
 
 Barker's Landing, 
 
 Ohio. 
 Calf Creek, Va. 
 
 Sheet's Land'g, Ohio 
 Bull Creek, 
 
 VS. 1 
 
 Little Muskingum, 
 
 Va. 
 Marietta, Ohio 
 
 Harmar, Ohio... 
 
 "Williamstown, Va- . 
 
 Finch's Land'g.Ohio 
 Cole's Landing, Va 
 Cutler's Landing, 
 
 Landing, Ohio 
 
 Spencer's Landing, 
 
 Va. 
 Parkershurgh, Va. 
 
 Belpre, Ohio 
 
 Hill's Land'g, Ohio. 
 
 "Walker's Landing, 
 
 Va. 
 Dake's Land'g, Ohio 
 Curtis's Landing, 
 
 Ohio. 
 
 116.8 
 
 121.0 
 
 125.5 
 127.0 
 
 130.4 
 
 131.6 
 
 132.4 
 
 134.7 
 
 136.0 
 
 136.4 
 
 139.0 
 141.5 
 
 142.6 
 144. 5 
 
 145.2 
 146.4 
 150.3 
 
 151. 8 
 154.5 
 
 155.5 
 
 158.0 
 
 159.5 
 
 160.7 
 
 161.2 
 
 161.8 
 161.8 
 164.0 
 
 167.0 
 
 171.0 
 
 171.5 
 
 171.0 
 
 172.5 
 170.4 
 178.0 
 
 179.5 
 179.7 
 
 183.5 
 
 183.5 
 
 189.8 
 
 192.8 
 
 193.0 
 193.5 
 
 Exports. 
 
 Tobacco, flour.and 
 
 produce. 
 Lumber, staves, 
 
 and produce. 
 
 Flour 
 
 Ship building, lum 
 
 ber, &c. 
 Lumber, produce, 
 
 and steamboat, 
 
 hulls. 
 Grindstones and 
 
 cooper stuff. 
 Yellow pine and 
 • cooper stuff. 
 Produce and coop'r 
 
 stuff. 
 Oil-barrels, flour, 
 
 and produce. 
 Tobacco and pro- 
 duce. 
 
 do 
 
 Flour, produce, 
 
 tobacco, cooper 
 
 stuff, &c. 
 Oil-barrels, flour, 
 
 and produce 
 
 Lumber 
 
 Country produce. . 
 
 Barrels, &c 
 
 Country produce 
 
 Produce and coop'r 
 stuff. 
 
 Country produce. . 
 
 Cooper stuff and 
 ship building. 
 
 Cooper stuff and 
 produce. 
 
 Cooper stuff, pro- 
 duce, &c. 
 
 Petrol'moil, trans- 
 fer. 
 
 Country produce. 
 
 Imports. 
 
 Grain, coal, dry 
 
 goods, &c. 
 do 
 
 Grain, dry g'ds,&c. 
 Lumber, grain, dry 
 
 goods, &c. 
 Dry goods and gro 
 
 ceries. 
 
 Dry goods and gro- 
 ceries. 
 do 
 
 Coal. 
 
 .do. 
 .do . 
 
 .do. 
 
 do 
 
 Dry goods and gro. 
 ceries. 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 .do. 
 
 do 
 
 do...- 
 
 Crude oil, lumber, 
 
 and cooper stuff 
 
 ■Lumber, &c 
 
 Furnit're, buckets, 
 
 and iron. 
 Flour, tobacco, and 
 
 grain. 
 Machin'ry, cast'gs, 
 
 and produce. 
 
 Grindstones 
 
 Produce, stone, &c. 
 Grindstones and 
 
 produce. 
 Building stone — 
 Country produce. . 
 
 Machin'y, oil, cast- 
 ings, and lumber. 
 Mills, flour, and 
 
 produce. 
 Lumber, country 
 
 produce, and 
 
 stone. 
 Country produce. . 
 
 .do. 
 .do. 
 
 .do. 
 .do. 
 
 .do. 
 .do. 
 
 Dry goods and gro- 
 
 ceries. 
 do 
 
 Estimated 
 valuo. 
 
 Dry goods, coal, 
 groceries, &c. 
 
 Dry goods, <fcc. 
 
 Dry goods, &c. 
 do 
 
 -do. 
 .do. 
 
 $100, 000 
 
 20,000 
 
 20, 000 
 20, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 50, 000 
 
 10 000 
 
 15, 000 
 05, 000 
 
 2,000 
 5,000 
 
 2,000 
 2,000 
 10, 000 
 
 5,000 
 30, 000 
 
 5,000 
 
 5,000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 5,000 
 
 2,000 
 
 2,000 
 5,000 
 15, 000 
 
 5,000 
 
 !, 500, 000 
 
 150, 000 
 
 5, 000 
 
 5,000 
 5,000 
 5,000 
 
 5,000 
 5,000 
 
 I, 000, 000 
 
 50, 000 
 
 3,000 
 
 2,000 
 
 2,000 
 2,000 
 
 Remarks. 
 
 Flour-mills, &c. 
 Saw-mills, &c. ' 
 
 Flour-mills. 
 Saw-mills. 
 
 Quarries, &c. 
 
 Mills, &c. 
 
 Do. 
 Saw-mills. 
 
 Cooperage. 
 Cooperage. 
 
 Ship-yards and 
 
 cooperage. 
 Cooperage. 
 
 Oil-wells. 
 
 Mouth Muskin- 
 gum River. 
 
 Iron-works. 
 Grindstone mill. 
 
 Oil-refineries. 
 
 Mills and Little 
 Kanawha River. 
 
502 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 General character and estimated value of the river-trade, #c— Continued. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 . ■ 
 
 Place. 
 
 $$ 
 
 3a< 
 
 Exports. 
 
 Imports. 
 
 Estimated 
 value. 
 
 Bemarks. 
 
 Kennedy's Land'g, 
 
 Obio. 
 HoskingCity, Ohio. 
 Harris'u Landing, 
 
 Va. 
 
 Belleville, Va 
 
 Reed's Land'jr, Ohio 
 
 Jackson's Landing, 
 Va. 
 
 Robinson Tid Land- 
 ing, Ohio. 
 
 Murraysville, "Va .. 
 
 Shade River, Ohio. . 
 De "Witt's Run, Ohio 
 
 195.8 
 
 197.4 
 197.4 
 
 199.5 
 199.5 
 203.6 
 205.5 
 
 207.7 
 
 207.7 
 
 208.8 
 
 210.0 
 211.7 
 214.0 
 218.6 
 221.5 
 
 221.5 
 223.5 
 228.5 
 
 230.5 
 230.5 
 233.5 
 233.5 
 
 237.6 
 
 239.3 
 
 239.3 
 
 243.4 
 
 243.7 
 244.6 
 
 245.8 
 245.8 
 240.5 
 
 248.5 
 
 250.0 
 
 251.5 
 
 253.4 
 255.4 
 
 258.0 
 
 260. 2 
 263.4 
 
 207.0 
 
 271.0 
 274.1 
 
 277.5 
 278.3 
 
 279.0 
 
 279.0 
 279.0 
 281.2 
 283. 7 
 
 Cooper stuff and 
 produce. 
 
 
 $2, 000 
 
 50, 000 
 500 
 
 20, 000 
 5,000 
 5,000 
 5,000 
 
 5,000 
 
 20,000 
 
 5,000 
 
 5,000 
 
 4,000 
 
 20, COO 
 
 20, 000 
 
 . 5, 000 
 
 5,000 
 
 5,000 
 
 25, 000 
 
 5,000 
 5,000 
 5, COO 
 4,000 
 
 50, 000 
 
 25,000 
 
 5,000 
 
 100, 000 
 
 50, 000 
 100,000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 5,000 
 
 8, 000, 000 
 
 50, 000 
 
 50, 000 
 
 50, 000 
 
 25, 000 
 25,000 
 
 12, 000 
 
 8,000 
 4, 500, 000 
 
 Cooperage. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Cooperage. 
 
 
 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 Cooperage. 
 
 
 Flour, prod'ce, and 
 
 cooperage. 
 Steainb't bulls and 
 
 produce. 
 Yellow pine, &c. . 
 
 do 
 
 ...do 
 
 
 do 
 
 Ship-yard. 
 
 Dry poods and gro- 
 ceries. 
 do 
 
 Grain and product 
 Fruit and produce 
 
 
 
 
 do 
 
 
 
 Gen'l merchandise 
 do 
 
 
 Hall's Land'g, Ohio. 
 
 Hughes's Eddy, Va. 
 Parr's Land'g, Ohio 
 Ripley's Landing, 
 , Va. 
 
 AVood, bark, and 
 produce. 
 
 
 do 
 
 
 Grain and produce 
 Bark and produce 
 
 .do 
 
 
 
 do 
 
 
 do 
 
 
 K Landing, Ohio . 
 Letartsville, Ohio . . 
 
 Country produce. . 
 
 Grain and produce 
 
 Yellow pine lum- 
 ber-mills. 
 
 Coal, lumber, bulls 
 and produce. 
 
 Hulls, produce, 
 bark, and lumb'r. 
 
 Grain and produce 
 
 do 
 
 
 do 
 
 
 Antiquity Rock, 
 
 Obio. 
 Racine, Obio 
 
 Graham's Station, 
 
 Va. 
 Syracuse, Obio 
 
 SlidiDgHill, Va... 
 
 do 
 
 Ship-y'els and saw- 
 mills. 
 
 Flour and saw- 
 mills, &C. 
 
 General merchan- 
 dise and logs. 
 Dry goods, &c 
 
 do 
 
 Salt 
 
 do 
 
 mines. 
 Do. 
 
 Hartford City, Va.. 
 Landing, Va 
 
 Coal, salt, &c 
 
 Salt 
 
 Gen'l merchandise. 
 do 
 
 Mines, salt-wells, 
 dry dock, coop'ge. 
 
 Coal . . . 
 
 do 
 
 
 Ponieroy, Obio 
 
 Mason City, Va 
 
 Landing, Va 
 
 Salt, coal, iron, &c. 
 
 Salt, coal, and pro- 
 duce. 
 
 Bar-iron, salt, and 
 coal. 
 
 Dry lumber, &c . . . 
 
 Gen'l merchandise. 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 Ship-yards, mines, 
 
 iron-tvorks, dry 
 
 docks. &c. 
 Saw-mills, mining, 
 
 <tc. 
 Iron works, wells, 
 
 and mines. 
 
 
 
 do 
 
 and mines. 
 
 
 Flour, bay, and 
 produce 
 
 do 
 
 
 Mackerel's Land'g, 
 
 Va. 
 Addison, Ohio 
 
 do .. 
 
 
 
 do 
 
 
 Point Pleasant, Va. 
 Gallipolis, Ohio 
 
 Coal, salt, lumber, 
 flour, produce, 
 &c. 
 
 Merchandise and 
 general manu- 
 factures. 
 
 Manufactures and 
 merchandise. 
 
 do 
 
 Trado of Big Ka- 
 nawha Kiver, (Ap- 
 pendix C.) 
 
 
 
 4,000 
 60, 000 
 
 8,000 
 10, 000 
 
 5,000 
 
 12, 000 
 
 20, 000 
 5,000 
 5,000 
 
 
 Raccoon Creek,Obio 
 
 Pip-metal, staves, 
 
 &c. 
 Produce, mills, <fcc. 
 Country produce, 
 
 &c. 
 Cooper stuff and 
 
 tan bark. 
 
 do 
 
 Furnaces in into* 
 
 rior. 
 Saw-mills, &o. 
 
 C h am bersbg' h, Oh i o 
 Managerie's Land- 
 ing, Va. 
 Bladensburgh, Ohio . 
 
 Logs and merch'se. 
 Gen'l merchandise. 
 
 do 
 
 
 
 
 p. i . 
 
 Bushes' Mill, Ohio.. 
 
 
 
 Flour-mill. 
 
 Gleuwood Landing, 
 
 Tan bark and coop- 
 erage. 
 
 do 
 
 Va. 
 
 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 503 
 
 General character and estimated value of the river-trade, #c. — Continued. 
 
 Place. 
 
 
 as 
 
 Exports. 
 
 Imports. 
 
 Estimated 
 value. 
 
 Remarks. 
 
 Guthrie's Landing, 
 
 Ohio. 
 Jenkins's Landing, 
 
 Ta. 
 Rankin's Landing, 
 
 Ohio. 
 Millersport, Ohio . . 
 Haskell ville, Ohio.. 
 ^Nino-mile Rm>, Va. 
 Gardner's Landing, 
 
 Ohio. 
 Guyandotte, Ta 
 
 Indian Guyandotte 
 
 Landing, Ohio. 
 Maple Grove, Va. . . 
 
 Symm's Creek, Ohio 
 
 Burlington, Ohio 
 
 Ceredo, Ta 
 
 Catlettsburg, Ky.. 
 
 South Point, Ohio.. 
 -Shoridan Coal Wks, 
 
 Ohio. 
 Ashland, Ky 
 
 Coal Grove, Ohio... 
 Bellcfonte Landing, 
 
 Ky. 
 Amanda Furnace, 
 
 Ky. 
 Ironton, Ohio 
 
 Hanging Rock, Ohio 
 
 Union Furnace 
 
 Landing, Ohio. 
 Oil-Works, Ky 
 
 Greenupshurgh, Ky 
 
 Haverhill, Ohio . - . 
 
 Smith's Run, Ky. . 
 Junior Landing, 
 
 Ohio. 
 Reid's Landing, Ky. 
 
 Franklin Furnace, 
 
 Ky. 
 ExcelsiorLime- 
 
 Works, Ky. 
 Pine Run Landing, 
 
 Ohio. 
 Scioto Tillage, Ohio, 
 
 Springville, Ky . . . 
 
 Portsmouth, Ohio . 
 
 Landing, Ohio. ... 
 
 Adams's Landing, 
 
 Ohio. 
 Quincy Landing, 
 
 Ky. 
 Boone Furnace 
 
 Landing. 
 Landiug, Ohio 
 
 Buena Vista, Ohio. . 
 Rocksville, Ohio 
 
 284.4 
 
 28li. 7 
 
 280.0 
 
 203.0 
 205. 
 207.0 
 208.7 
 
 302.7 
 
 304.0 
 
 306.3 
 
 306.3 
 
 311.0 
 
 312.2 
 
 314.5 
 
 314.5 
 318.0 
 
 320.0 
 
 320.0 
 321.5 
 
 323.5 
 
 325.0 
 
 327.5 
 
 329.5 
 
 330.3 
 
 333.7 
 
 334.0 
 
 336.0 
 337. 
 
 338.0 
 
 338.0 
 
 342.5 
 
 344.2 
 
 346.5 
 
 353.0 
 
 353.0 
 
 360.0 
 
 362.0 
 
 364.0 
 
 365. 5 
 
 369.0 
 
 371.0 
 
 372.0 
 
 Grain and produce. 
 
 Grain, hay, and 
 produce. 
 
 Tan bark, cooper 
 stuff, SiC. 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 Grain and produce. 
 
 Barrels and pro- 
 duce. 
 
 Grain, flour, 'lum- 
 ber, coal, &c. 
 
 Produce and' grain 
 
 Hay, produce, and 
 grain. 
 
 Lumber and pro- 
 duce. 
 
 Grain, produce, 
 and pottery. 
 
 Produce and lum- 
 ber. 
 
 Lumber, coal, &c. . 
 
 Grain and produce 
 Coal 
 
 Coal and produce . 
 
 Fire-brick 
 
 Pig-metal aud fire- 
 brick. 
 Pig-metal 
 
 Iron, nails, flour, 
 &o. 
 
 Iron, coal, and pro- 
 duce. 
 
 Pig-metal and pro- 
 duce. 
 
 Pig-metal and re- 
 fined oil. 
 
 Pig - metal, coal, 
 and produce. 
 
 Grain, flour, and 
 produce. 
 
 Cooper stuff, &c. 
 
 Pig-metal and pro- 
 duce. 
 
 Leather and pro- 
 duce. 
 
 Pig-metal and pro- 
 duce. 
 
 Lime and produce 
 
 Pig-metal and pro- 
 duce. 
 
 Fire-brick, lumber, 
 metal, &c. 
 
 Whisky, leather, 
 &c. 
 
 IroD, machinery, 
 floor, &c. 
 
 Tan-bark and pro- 
 duce. 
 
 Queensware, pro- 
 duce, <fcc. 
 
 Pig-metal, bark, &c 
 
 .do. 
 
 Lumber and pro- 
 duce. 
 
 Fruit, grain, and 
 cut build'g stone. 
 
 Fruit, grain, and 
 shale oil. 
 
 G en'l merchandise. 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 .do. 
 .do. 
 .do . 
 .do. 
 
 do.. 
 
 do.. 
 
 do.. 
 
 do .. 
 
 do.. 
 
 do.. 
 
 do.. 
 
 .do . 
 -do. 
 
 .do. 
 
 .do . 
 .do. 
 
 do 
 
 General trade 
 
 Gen'l merchandise. 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 Hides and general 
 
 merchandise. 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 General trade . . 
 Gen'l merchandise. 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 $7, 000 
 
 14, 000 
 12, 000 
 
 20, 000 
 
 15, 000 
 5,000 
 
 20, 000 
 
 100, 000 
 20, 000 
 10, 000 
 12, 000 
 25, 000 
 10, 000 
 
 500, 000 
 
 25, 000 
 25, 000 
 
 500, 000 
 
 25, 000 
 250, 000 
 
 100, 000 
 5, 000, 000 
 1, 000, 0H0 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 150,000 
 
 1, 500, 000 
 
 20, 000 
 
 5,000 
 BOO, 000 
 
 50, 000 
 
 200, 000 
 
 100, 000 
 
 150, 000 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 200, 000 
 
 12, 000, 000 
 
 5,000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 100, 000 
 
 100, 000 
 
 5,000 
 
 100, 000 
 
 100, 000 
 
 Guyandotte River 
 trade. 
 
 Saw-mills. 
 Pottery, &c. 
 
 Saw-mill & match- 
 factory. 
 
 Big Sandy River 
 trade. 
 
 Mines. 
 
 Lexington Rail- 
 way. 
 
 Fire-brick works. 
 
 Furuaco in inte- 
 rior. 
 
 Furnace. 
 
 Several iron- w'rks. 
 
 Furnace, &c. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Furnace and re- 
 finery. 
 
 Furnace. 
 
 Tannery. 
 
 Furnace. 
 
 Lime-kilns. 
 
 Furnace. 
 
 Brick-works, &c. 
 
 Tannery and dis- 
 tillery. 
 Iron-works, &c. 
 
 Queensware maim 
 
 factory. 
 Furnace. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Saw-mill. 
 
 Stone-mill. 
 
 Oil-w'rks and stono 
 saw-mill. 
 
504 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 General character and estimated value of the river-trade, $c— Continued. 
 
 Place. 
 
 O fcfl 
 
 is 
 
 Exports. 
 
 Imports. 
 
 Estimated 
 value. 
 
 Remarks. 
 
 Fairview Landing, 
 
 Ky. 
 
 Vanceburg, Ky 
 
 Stout's Landing, Ky 
 
 Concord, Ky 
 
 "Wrights ville, Ohio. 
 Manchester, Ohio . . 
 
 Springdale, Ky 
 
 Maysville, Ky 
 
 Aberdeen, Ohio 
 
 373.5 
 
 375.0 
 
 381.0 
 
 383.0 
 
 387.0 
 
 388.8 
 394.0 
 
 400.0 
 405.5 
 
 405.5 
 
 410.5 
 
 410.5 
 
 414.0 
 
 416.5 
 416.5 
 418.0 
 421.3 
 
 424.0 
 426. 5 
 428.0 
 
 428.0 
 
 431.0 
 
 431. 
 
 435.0 
 
 435.0 
 
 437.5 
 
 439.0 
 
 439.0 
 
 441.5 
 444.0 
 444.0 
 
 450.3 
 
 454.0 
 
 459. 
 4G6. 5 
 
 474.5 
 
 478.0 
 489.0 
 
 491.0 
 
 493.0 
 
 499.0 
 
 Stone and bark 
 
 Flour, leather, 
 
 bark, &c. 
 Grain, fruit, bark, 
 
 &c. 
 Grain, fruit, bay, 
 
 &c. 
 Flour,leatber, and 
 
 lumber. 
 Grain, produce, &c. 
 Flour, grain, lum- 
 ber, &c. 
 Grain, produce, &c. 
 Pork, tobacco, oil, 
 
 &c. 
 Pork, tobacco, and 
 
 produce. 
 
 Gen'l merchandise. 
 
 $50, 000 
 
 200, 000 
 
 50, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 75, 000 
 
 15,000 
 230, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 8, 000, 000 
 
 50, 000 
 
 20, 000 
 
 8,000 
 
 5, 000, 000 
 
 125, 000 
 
 60, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 2, 000, 000 
 
 85, 000 
 10, ooo 
 
 15, 000 
 
 20, 000 
 
 20, 000 
 
 12, 000 
 
 250, 000 
 
 100, 000 
 
 15, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 ' 4,000 
 
 2,000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 200, 0u0 
 
 §25, 000 
 
 2,000 
 
 5,000 
 148, 500, tOO 
 
 50, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 700, 000 
 
 100, 000 
 
 500, 000 
 
 2,000 
 
 
 do 
 
 
 do -• 
 
 
 do 
 
 Saw -mill and flonr- 
 
 do 
 
 mill. 
 
 General -trade 
 
 Gen'lmefchandise. 
 General trade 
 
 Gen'l merchandise. 
 
 do 
 
 Saw-mill and flour- 
 mill. 
 
 Shale oil-w'rks, &c. 
 
 ing, Ky. 
 Logan's Cap, Ohio. . 
 
 Ripley Cap, Ohio. . . 
 
 Wine, tobacco, and 
 produce. 
 
 Grain, hay, tobac- 
 co, whisky, lard, 
 pork, &c. 
 
 Pork, lard, and to- 
 bacco. 
 
 Pork, lard, tobac- 
 co, and wine. 
 
 Wine. . 
 
 do 
 
 Vineyards, &c. 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 Distillery, &c. 
 
 
 do 
 
 
 Bushmey Landing, 
 
 Ohio. , h 
 
 Higginport, Ohio. .. 
 
 Augnsta, Ky 
 
 Utopia, Ohio 
 
 Rural Village, Ohio. 
 
 Bock Spring Land- 
 ing. K y- 
 Chilo, Ohio 
 
 do 
 
 Vineyards. 
 
 Pork, grain, tobac- 
 co, whisky, and 
 wine. 
 
 Grain and tobacco. 
 
 do 
 
 Distillery, &o. 
 
 do 
 
 
 do 
 
 
 Tobacco, grain, 
 wine, and fruit. 
 
 Whisky and -to- 
 bacco. 
 
 Grain, wine, fruit, 
 &c. 
 
 do 
 
 
 do 
 
 
 do 
 
 
 Metcalfs Landing:, 
 
 do . 
 
 
 Whisky, flour, 
 grain, &c. 
 
 Tobacco and pro- 
 duce. 
 
 Tobacco and coop- 
 er-stuff. 
 
 Flour, whisky, 
 grain, and irait. 
 
 Bark, wood, and 
 cooper stuff. 
 
 do 
 
 
 Stepstone, Ky 
 
 Point Pleasant, Ohio 
 California, Ky 
 
 do 
 
 
 do 
 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 Distillery.- 
 
 
 
 Wood and produce 
 Whisky, graiD, 
 
 fruit, &c. 
 Brick, wood, flour, 
 
 aud fruit. 
 
 do 
 
 
 do 
 
 
 Ohio. 
 Palestine, Ohio 
 
 Gen'l merchandise. 
 do .. 
 
 Brick-works. 
 Vineyard. 
 
 
 
 do 
 
 
 Foundory. 
 
 See Appendix D. 
 
 Pork-packing, 
 mills. . i ;-c. 
 
 Pork-packing, dis- 
 tillery. 6 
 Do. 
 
 Cincinnati, Ohio... 
 Refuse Works, Ohio 
 Taylorsport, Ky . . 
 
 Pork, gen'l manu- 
 factures, &.C. 
 
 Hair, soap, can- 
 dles, Sic. 
 
 Grain and produce 
 
 Flour, pork, grain, 
 &o. 
 
 Whisky, pork, &c. 
 
 Tobaoco, grain, 
 flour, whisky, 
 and pork. 
 
 Grain and produee. 
 
 General trade. 
 
 Dead animals' ref- 
 use, &c. 
 Gen'l merchandise. 
 do 
 
 Petersburg]!, Ky . . . 
 Aurora, Ind 
 
 Eellview, Ky 
 
 Grain, &c 
 
 Gen'l merchandise. 
 
 do 1 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 505 
 
 General character and estimated value of the river-trade, <$-c. — Continued. 
 
 Place. 
 
 
 a* 
 
 Exports. 
 
 Imports. 
 
 Estimated 
 value. 
 
 Remarks. 
 
 Rising Sun, Ind . 
 
 North's Landing, 
 Ind. 
 
 .Hamilton's Land- 
 ing, Ky. 
 
 Patriot, Ind 
 
 Sugar Creek, Ky.. 
 "Warsaw, Ky 
 
 Florence, Ind . 
 
 Log Lick Landing, 
 
 Ind. 
 Tevay, Ind 
 
 Ghent, Ky 
 
 Craig's Bar, Ind. 
 Scott's Landing, Ky 
 Catrolton, Ky... 
 
 Brooksbury, Ind . 
 Madison, Ind 
 
 Hanover Landing, 
 
 Ind. 
 Reed's Landing, Ind 
 
 Marble Hill, Ind... 
 Garrett's Landing, 
 
 Ky. 
 Bethlehem, Ind . . . 
 Oldem's Landing, 
 
 Westport, Ky 
 
 Herculaneum, Ind 
 
 Charleston Landing, 
 Ind. 
 
 1Jtica,Ind 
 
 Jettersonville, Ind. 
 
 Louisville, Ky 
 
 Sbippingport, Ky . 
 Clarksville, Ind... 
 Portland, Ky 
 
 New Albany, Ind . . 
 
 Knob Creek, Ind. . . 
 
 Blunk's Landing, 
 Ind. 
 
 Stewart's Landing, 
 Ind, 
 
 Strong's Landing, 
 Ind. 
 
 Applegate's Land- 
 ing, Ind. 
 
 "West Point, Ky 
 
 Evans's Landing, 
 Ind. 
 
 New Boston, Ind, . . 
 
 Otter Creek, Ky ... 
 Rock Haven, Ky . . . 
 
 Tobacco Landing, 
 
 Ind. 
 Brandenburgh, Ky . 
 
 Mauckport, Ind 
 
 Lopp's Landing, 
 Ind. 
 
 502.0 
 
 505.5 
 
 510.5 
 
 514.5 
 
 518.3 
 523.5 
 
 524.5 
 
 528.5 
 
 533.0 
 
 533.0 
 537.2 
 538.0 
 541.0 
 
 545.0 
 
 553.5 
 
 557.3 
 
 561.2 
 
 566.3 
 570.3 
 
 570.0 
 571,6 
 
 575.5 
 
 580.5 
 
 586.5 
 
 591.4 
 597.0 
 
 598.0 
 600.5 
 600.5 
 602.0 
 
 Pork, produce, live 
 hogs, and whis- 
 kies. 
 
 Grain and hay 
 
 Hay, &c . 
 
 Gen'l merchandise, 
 
 "Whisky, pork, 
 
 flour, &c. 
 Hay and produce.. . 
 Tobacco, flour, and 
 
 live stock. 
 Hogs, hay, and 
 
 produce. 
 do 
 
 Hay, hogs, and 
 
 whisky. 
 Tobacco and flour. 
 Hay and grain . . 
 
 do 
 
 Tobacco, grain 
 
 flour, pork, &c. 
 Grain, produce, &c 
 
 Starch, whisky, 
 
 pork, flour, &c. 
 
 Grain and produce. 
 
 Lumber and pro- 
 duce. 
 Marble and stone . 
 Tobacco and grain, 
 
 Grain and hay ... 
 Tobacco and nay. 
 
 Tobacco, flour, 
 whisky, &c. 
 
 Flour, bay, and 
 produce. 
 
 Lime, grain, &o .. 
 
 Lime 
 
 Pork, whisky, &-C. 
 
 General trade.. 
 
 Cement 
 
 do 
 
 General trade . . 
 
 602.0 
 
 612.0 
 615.0 
 
 616.3 
 
 621.0 
 
 622.3 
 
 024. 3 
 626.3 
 
 628. 
 
 631. 
 632.0 
 
 635.5 
 
 640.0 
 
 642.4 
 
 646.0 
 
 do 
 
 Building-stone 
 
 Sand and building 
 
 material. 
 Hay, grain, and 
 
 produce. 
 Tobacco, grain, 
 
 bay, &c. 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 Hay and general 
 
 produce. 
 Hay, grain, and 
 
 produce. 
 Grain and produce. 
 Tobacco, pork, 
 
 ilour, cotton, &c . 
 Tobacco, grain, 
 
 hay, &c. 
 Tobacco, grain, 
 
 and produce. 
 Hay, grain, and 
 
 produce. 
 Cooper stuff and 
 
 produce. 
 
 .do. 
 .do. 
 .do . 
 
 ....do. 
 ....do. 
 
 .do. 
 .do. 
 
 '.do. 
 
 -do. 
 .do . 
 .do . 
 .do. 
 
 .do. 
 
 Lumber, coal, &c. 
 Gen'l merchandise. 
 
 .do. 
 
 .do. 
 .do . 
 
 .do. 
 .do . 
 
 do. 
 
 do. 
 
 do. 
 
 do 
 
 Coal, lumber, and 
 general trade. 
 
 do 
 
 Stono 
 
 .... do , 
 
 General trado...... 
 
 Coal, lumber, ore, 
 . &c. 
 
 Gen'l merchandise, 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 Gen'l merchandise. 
 do 
 
 .do. 
 .do. 
 
 .do. 
 
 .do. 
 
 .do. 
 .do. 
 
 .do. 
 
 do. 
 
 .do. 
 
 $500, 000 
 
 5,000 
 
 5,000 
 
 125, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 80, Q00 
 
 50, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 300, 000 
 
 50, 000 
 
 6,000 
 
 2,000 
 
 2, 500, 000 
 
 4,000 
 
 12, 000, 000 
 
 2,000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 10, 000 
 
 2,000 
 10, 000 
 
 25, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 100, 000 
 5, 000, 000 
 
 15, 000, 000 
 
 500, 000 
 
 100,000 
 
 4, 000, 000 
 
 15, 000, 000 
 
 2,000 
 5,000 
 
 5,000 
 
 85, 000 
 
 100, 000 
 
 50, 000 
 5,000 
 
 5,000 
 
 5,000 
 
 50, 000 
 5,000 
 
 50, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 5,000 
 
 Pork-packing, dis- 
 tillery. 
 
 Distilleries, &c. 
 
 Flour-ruills. 
 
 Saw-mills, &c. 
 
 Distilleries, mills, 
 &c. 
 
 Kentucky Eiver 
 
 trade. 
 Saw and flour 
 
 mills. 
 Ship-yards, mills, 
 
 &c.' 
 
 Saw-mills, &c. 
 Marble-quarries. 
 
 Distilleries, &.C. 
 
 Mills. 
 
 Lime-kilns. 
 
 Do. 
 See Appendix B. 
 
 Gen'l river trans 
 
 fer. 
 Ship-building, &o. 
 
 Quarries. 
 Sand-pits. 
 
 Cotton-mills. 
 
 Flour - mills and 
 pork.packing. 
 
 Cooperage. 
 
506 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 General character and, estimated value of the riter-tradc, #c. — Continued. 
 
 Place. 
 
 9 to 
 
 sis 
 
 Exports. 
 
 Imports. 
 
 Estimated 
 value. 
 
 Eemarks. 
 
 Granny's Gut Run, 
 
 JSew Amsterdara, 
 
 Ind. 
 Leavenworth, Ind . . 
 
 Fredonia, Ind 
 
 Amos Landing, Ind 
 Cedar Branch, Ky . . 
 
 Ha wkin s ' s Land- 
 ing, Ind. 
 Wolfs Creek, Ky. 
 
 Alton, Ind 
 
 Galov's Landing, 
 Ind. 
 
 Reno, Ind 
 
 Hatfield Landing, 
 Ind. 
 
 Concordia, Ky 
 
 Derby, Ind . 
 
 Cedar Grove Land- 
 ing, Ky. 
 
 CummiDga's Land- 
 ing, Ind. 
 
 Rome, lud 
 
 Stevensport, Ky . . . 
 
 Holt's Landing, Ky 
 Cloverport, Ky 
 
 Tobinsport, Ind . . . 
 Hog's Point, Ind . 
 Deer Creek, lud. .. 
 Rock Island, Ind . . 
 Hawesville, Ky . . . 
 
 Cannelton, Ind . 
 
 Tell City, Ind . . 
 Troy,Ind 
 
 Emrick's Landing, 
 Ky. 
 
 "Woodland, Ind 
 
 Lewisport, Ky 
 
 Grandview, Ind 
 
 Honey Creek, Ind. . 
 Rockport, Ind 
 
 Landing, Ky 
 
 Snider's Landing, 
 
 Ind. 
 Owenborough, Ky. . 
 
 Bon Harbor, Ky 
 
 Enterprise Village, 
 
 Ky. 
 Point Isabel, Ind. . . 
 
 Griasen's Landing, 
 
 Tobacco W a r e - 
 house, Ky. 
 
 648.5 
 
 650.0 
 
 658.0 
 
 661.0 
 665.3 
 666.1 
 
 671.0 
 673.0 
 675.5 
 
 677.0 
 679.0 
 
 680.7 
 
 686.5 
 
 687.5 
 
 687.5 
 
 695.0 
 
 695.0 
 
 697.0 
 
 705.0 
 
 705.0 
 708.5 
 712.4 
 713.0 
 717.0 
 
 717.0 
 
 720.0 
 724.0 
 
 727.0 
 
 729.2 
 731.0 
 
 735.5 
 
 738. 3 
 
 Lime, grain, and 
 
 produce. 
 Grain and produce, 
 
 Tobacco, grain, 
 
 lumber, barrels. 
 
 Grain and produce. 
 
 do 
 
 Lime and country 
 
 produce. 
 Grain, lumber, 
 and produce. 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 Cooper stuff and 
 produce. 
 
 .do 
 
 Grain and produce 
 
 Cooper stuff, bark, 
 and produce. 
 
 Grain, produce, 
 and bark. 
 
 Hay, grain, and 
 produce. 
 
 do 
 
 Flour, grain, hay, 
 
 and produce. 
 Tobacco, flour, 
 
 grain, hay, and 
 
 produce. 
 Fruit, hay, and 
 
 produce. 
 Tobacco, coal, hay, 
 
 flour, &c. 
 Hay, grain, &c 
 
 Grain and produce. 
 
 Coal and stone 
 
 Coal, tobacco, and 
 general produoe. 
 
 Coal, cotton man- 
 ufactures, and 
 produce. 
 
 Flour and general 
 produce. 
 
 Flour, produce, 
 and crockery. 
 
 Grain and produce. 
 
 Coal 
 
 Tobacco, grain, 
 and produce. 
 
 Tobacco, hay, 
 grain, &o. 
 
 Coal and hay 
 
 742.0 
 
 744.5 
 
 749.0 
 
 7S2.0 
 
 755.5 
 
 758.0 
 
 758.0 
 
 767.5 
 
 Flour, tobacco, 
 
 frain, and pro- 
 uce. 
 Grain, hay, and 
 
 produce. 
 Grain and produce. 
 
 Tobacco, pork, 
 
 frain, and pro- 
 uce. 
 Coal, tobacco, and 
 
 grain. 
 Grain and produce . 
 
 Hulls, grain, and 
 
 produce. 
 "Whisky, grain, &o. 
 
 Tobaoco and grain. 
 
 Gen'l merchandise. 
 do 
 
 .do. 
 .do. 
 .do. 
 
 .do. 
 
 .do. 
 .do. 
 .do. 
 
 .do . 
 
 .do . 
 
 Coal and general 
 
 merchandise. 
 Gen'l merchandise. 
 
 .do. 
 .do. 
 .do. 
 -do. 
 
 ..do. 
 
 ..do. 
 
 -do. 
 ..do. 
 ..do. 
 ..do. 
 ..do. 
 
 ..do. 
 
 ..do. 
 
 ..do. 
 
 ..do. 
 
 .do. 
 ..do. 
 
 .do. 
 
 -do. 
 
 -do. 
 
 ..do. 
 ..do. 
 ..do. 
 
 ..do. 
 .do. 
 -do. 
 -do. 
 .do.. 
 
 $10, 000 
 
 5,000 
 
 50, 000 
 
 4,000 
 2,000 
 3,000 
 
 3,000 
 
 10, 000 
 20, 000 
 10, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 10, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 3,000 
 
 3,000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 90, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 150, 000 
 
 5,000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 100, 000 
 
 500, 000 
 
 150, 000 
 150, 000 
 10, 000 
 
 io, ooo 
 
 25,000 
 100, 000 
 $30, 000 
 150, 000 
 
 15, 000 
 
 5,000 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 10, 000 
 10, 000 
 10, 000 
 30, 000 
 
 Lime-kilns. 
 
 Saw-milla, cooper- 
 ago, &c. 
 
 Saw-mills. 
 
 Do. 
 Cooperage. 
 
 Cooperage. 
 
 Flour-mills, &c. 
 Do. 
 
 Coal - mines and 
 mills. 
 
 Coal-mines. 
 
 Cotton-mills and 
 coal-mining. 
 
 Flour-mills, &e. 
 
 Coal-mines. 
 
 Coal-mines. 
 
 .Flour and 
 mills. 
 
 Pork packing, 
 mills, &c. 
 
 Distillery. 
 
TEANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 507 
 
 General character and estimated value of the river-trade, SfK. — Continued. 
 
 Place 
 
 g« 
 
 as 
 
 Exports. 
 
 Imports. 
 
 Estimated 
 value. 
 
 Remarks. 
 
 Newburgh, Ind . . . 
 Evansville, Ind . . . 
 
 Tobacco Bend, Ky - 
 
 Dutch Bend. Ind. . 
 Henderson, Ky 
 
 Maxwell's Land- 
 ing, Ind. 
 
 Landing, Ind 
 
 "West Franklin, Ind, 
 
 "Walnut Bend Land- 
 ing, Ky. 
 
 New York Land- 
 ing, Ky. 
 
 Mt. V crhon, Ind . . . 
 
 Floyd's Landing, 
 
 Ind. 
 Uniontown.Ky 
 
 "Wabash River. . 
 
 Kaleigh.Ky 
 
 Shawneetown, 111 . 
 
 Coal "Works, HI 
 
 Curlew Coal "Works, 
 
 Ky. 
 Sellers & Co.'s 
 
 Works, Ky. 
 
 Shotwell's "Works, 
 
 Ky. 
 Casey ville, Ky 
 
 Battery Kock, HI... 
 
 "Weston, Ky 
 
 Ford's Ferry, Ky. . . 
 
 Cave-In-Kock, HI . . 
 
 Big Hurricane C'k, 
 
 Ky. . 
 Elizabethtown, H1- 
 
 Eose Clair, HI.. 
 Carrsville, Ky . 
 
 Trake's Coal Mines, 
 
 Ky. 
 Parkson's Landing, 
 
 111. 
 Buena "Vista, HI. . . 
 G-olconda, HI 
 
 BayCity.Ill 
 
 Mill Bayou, Ky . . . 
 Birdsviile, Ky 
 
 Smithland, Ky . 
 
 785.5 
 
 788.0 
 794.5 
 
 796.0 
 
 805.0 
 807.5 
 
 814.0 
 
 815.7 
 
 818.5 
 
 823.5 
 
 832.5 
 
 838.2 
 
 843.3 
 
 848.0 
 
 850.0 
 857.5 
 857.5 
 
 859.3 
 
 860.5 
 
 860.5 
 864. 2 
 866.0 
 
 869.0 
 
 873.7 
 
 877.0 
 
 879.5 
 
 881.5 
 
 882.3 
 
 886.6 
 890.3 
 
 899.0 
 
 900.0 
 902.5 
 
 907.5 
 
 Coal and general 
 
 produce. 
 Grain, pork, to- 
 bacco, and whis- 
 ky- 
 Tobacco, grain, &c. 
 
 Grain and produce, 
 Tobacco and pro- 
 duce. 
 Grain and produce, 
 
 do 
 
 Grain, cooper 
 
 stuff, &c. 
 Grain, tobacco and 
 
 produce. 
 do 
 
 General trade. 
 do 
 
 Pork, tobacco, 
 
 grain, flour, &c. 
 
 Grain and produce. 
 
 Tobacco, coal, 
 grain, flour, and 
 whisky. 
 
 Grain, flour, and 
 produce. 
 
 Tobacco, grain, &c 
 
 Flour, tobacco, 
 grain, whisky, 
 &c. 
 
 Coal 
 
 .do. 
 
 Coal and paper 
 
 Coal 
 
 Coal, tobacco, 
 
 grain, hemp, &c. 
 
 Coal 
 
 Grain and produce. 
 
 Tobacco, grain, 
 hemp, &c. 
 
 Tobacco and coun- 
 try produce. 
 
 Tobacco, hemp, 
 grain, &c. 
 
 Grain , tobacco, pig- 
 metal, and lead. 
 
 Lead, gi ain, Sec ... 
 
 Tobacco, hemp, 
 
 and grain. 
 Coal 
 
 Grain, tobacco, 
 
 and produce. 
 do 
 
 Tobacco, hemp, 
 produce, and 
 shingles. 
 
 Grain, produce, 
 lumber, &c. 
 
 Lumber, grain, &c 
 
 Tobacco, grain, 
 hemp, &c. 
 
 Produce, tobacco, 
 hemp, and lum- 
 ber. 
 
 General merchan- 
 dise. 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 .do. 
 
 do. 
 .do. 
 
 .do. 
 .do. 
 
 General trade 
 
 General merchan- 
 dise. 
 General trade 
 
 .do. 
 
 General merchan- 
 dise. . 
 do 
 
 .do. 
 .do. 
 
 Cane, poles, and 
 general merchan- 
 dise. 
 
 General merchan- 
 dise. 
 
 do 
 
 .do. 
 .do. 
 .do. 
 
 ...do. 
 ...do. 
 
 General merchan- 
 dise. 
 do 
 
 .do. 
 .do. 
 
 .do. 
 
 do 
 
 General trade. 
 
 General merchan- 
 dise. 
 
 do 
 
 do 
 
 General trado. 
 
 $200, 000 
 12, 500, 000 
 
 50, 000 
 3, 000, 000 
 
 20, 0C0 
 
 10, 000 
 
 20, 000 
 
 50, 000 
 50, 000 
 
 500, 000 
 10, 000 
 
 350, 000 
 
 15, 000, 000 
 
 20, 000 
 500, 000 
 
 50, 000 
 5,000 
 5, 000 
 
 200, 000 
 
 150, 000 
 
 50, 000 
 20, 000 
 75, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 15, 000 
 
 $250, 000 
 
 50, 000 
 
 20, 000 
 
 50, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 
 5,000 
 100, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 10,000 
 
 30, 000, 000 
 
 Saw and flour 
 
 mills, &c. 
 Seo Appendix F. 
 
 Saw, flour mills, 
 &c. 
 
 Saw, flour mills, 
 &c. 
 
 Coal-mines, distil- 
 leries, mills, &c. 
 
 Included in Evnns- 
 ville, Shawnee- 
 town, "Union- 
 town, &c. (See 
 Appendix G.) 
 
 Saw and flour 
 mill, &c. 
 
 Coal railroad three 
 
 miles to mine. 
 Coal-mines. 
 
 Coal-mines, paper* 
 factory. 
 
 Coal railroad. 
 
 Flouriug-mills. 
 
 Furnaco, lead- 
 mines, &c. 
 Lead-mines. 
 
 Coal-mines. 
 
 Shingle factory, &c. 
 
 Saw-mills, &c. 
 Do. 
 
 Saw-mills and lum- 
 ber-trade. (See 
 Appendix H.) 
 
508 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 General character and estimated value of the river-trade, #c— Continued. 
 
 Place. 
 
 OB (0 
 
 Exports. 
 
 Imports. 
 
 Estimated 
 value. 
 
 Kemarks. 
 
 Pull Tight, HI. 
 
 909.5 
 
 Produce, shingles, 
 and cooper stuff. 
 
 General merchan- 
 dise. 
 
 $30, 000 
 
 Saw-mills, lumber- 
 trade, cooperage, 
 &c. 
 
 Paducah, Ky 
 
 919.5 
 
 Hemp, pork, pro- 
 duce, and grain. 
 
 
 40, 000, 000 
 
 Tennessee Elver 
 trade, ship-yards, 
 &c. 
 
 Brooklyn, Til 
 
 923.0 
 
 Grain, shingles, &c» 
 
 General merchan- 
 dise. 
 General trade 
 
 General merchan- 
 dise. 
 do 
 
 50,000 
 
 Shingle-factory. 
 
 Fletcher's Landing, 
 111. 
 
 Hilderman's Land- 
 ing, 111. 
 
 Wilkinson's Land- 
 ing, 111. 
 
 Eckle's Landing, 111. 
 
 Caledonia LandiDg, 
 111. 
 
 Lauding, Ky 
 
 Kelsey's Landing, 
 111. 
 
 Mound City, 111 
 
 Cairo, HI 
 
 929.2 
 937.0 
 939.0 
 
 Hulls, produce, to- 
 bacco, hemp, »fec. 
 Grain and produce. 
 
 200, 000 
 10, 000 
 10, 000 
 
 Ship-yard, &c 
 
 
 
 5,000 
 
 
 948.7 
 951.0 
 
 955.0 
 
 do 
 
 ...do 
 
 5,000 
 10, 000 
 
 10, 000 
 10, 000 
 
 
 Lumber, grain, 
 
 hemp, tobacco. 
 
 Tobacco, hemp, &c. 
 
 Grain and produce. 
 
 Hulls, &c 
 
 .do 
 
 
 do 
 
 
 do 
 
 
 959.0 
 967.0 
 
 General merchan- 
 dise, lumber. 
 
 150, 000 
 20,000,000 
 
 
 Cotton, hemp, coal, 
 salt, lum ber, iron, 
 grain, &c. 
 
 
 
 
 Total annual value, Ohio Eiver trade, §694,007,000. 
 Respectfully submitted. 
 
 W. Milnok Roberts, 
 
 V. H. Civil Engineer, in charge Ohio River Improvement. 
 
 THOMAS P. ROBERTS, 
 Assistant United States Civil Engineer, 
 
 I will state that Mr. Sherlock, a large steamboat-owner, is present, 
 and he can give you a good idea of this local trade along the river. 
 
 As an illustration of it, I went down the river last spring on a Mem- 
 phis boat, and she stopped at every landing to take in freight. The 
 quantity of freight she did take in was astonishing, and to show you 
 how often she stopped, when we passed through the Louisville Canal, 
 we passed one of those six-acre coal-tows going down the river, and that 
 tow passed us before we got to Cairo five or six times, and actually got 
 to the place I was going to ahead of us. The cause of that was that 
 this boat stopped at all the little landings to take in freight from the 
 country bordering on the river, hay, grain, tobacco, and almost every- 
 thing that you could think of. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Tour committee recommend 
 your judgment, is the proper one ? 
 
 A. I suppose they refer to this James Eiver Canal. It is the one 
 which connects with the Ohio Kiyer through the Kanawha. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Q. What effect would it have upon the trade of Cincinnati and its 
 vicinity if the northern water-line was open and the mouth of the Mis- 
 sissippi improved, and additional water-facilities given to Cincinnati- 
 would it have any effect? ' 
 
 one central water-line. What, in 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 509 
 
 Mr. CoNEXiNG, (to Mr. Davis.) What do you mean by tlie northern 
 water-line ? 
 
 Mr. Dayis. The lakes, the Erie Canal enlarged, the Fox Biver, and 
 Wisconsin improvement. 
 
 Mr. Smith. Mr. Sherlock could answer that question as to the ef- 
 fect of the improvement of the mouth of the Mississippi, and as to what 
 effect it would have upon the commerce of the river better than I can. 
 As to the opening of these northern lines, I do not think they would 
 affect our trade at all. It is too far north of here in latitude. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Do you mean they would not diminish or improve your trade % 
 A. I do not think they would diminish it at all, or increase it. They 
 would affect the trade of Chicago a great deal more than they would us, 
 because we do not get much grain from that country ; not enough, at 
 least, except to supply our own deficiencies here. Grain does not come 
 from that country ; it does not seek the sea-board through Cincinnati. 
 
 By Mr. Dayis : 
 
 Q. Is that accounted for, or not, because you have no water communi- 
 cation here with the East % 
 
 A. I suppose it is, sir. But I. would state now that one of the im- 
 portant points with reference to this cheap transportation is this : You 
 are doubtless aware that a large percentage of the cost of transporting 
 grain from the producer to the consumer is taken' up by what is called 
 " middle-men ;" that is, it passes through Chicago, for instance, and i3 
 then taken to New York, and passed through New York from the rail- 
 road to the steamship. You will find, if you obtain the figures, that a 
 large percentage of the cost of transportation from the producer to the 
 consumer, or to the port of shipment for Europe, is the cost of transport- 
 ing it through the cities, and handling it. The Baltimore and Ohio 
 railroad is now building a road to Chicago, or out in that direction, and 
 you can put grain, or any article of produce that is intended for ship- 
 ment to Europe, upon a train ; it is taken to Baltimore to the pier, and 
 loaded into a vessel without any expense to the shipper. The difference 
 between the Baltimore route and the New York route to Europe is, 
 therefpre, getting to be very marked ; but the Baltimore road not hav- 
 ing facilities for reaching out into the West, passing over rival roads, 
 the business has not yet grown to a very great magnitude, although it 
 is growing every year, and they are adding to these lines of steamships. 
 The natural trade between Europe and the United States is not with 
 Baltimore, and they have been building their steamships and keeping 
 up that trade, and it is increasing. Philadelphia has now gone into th« 
 same thing. The Pennsylvania Central Boad is doing the same. Our 
 merchants now under this new law are going to import a great many 
 articles. The drawback is that the tonnage of Baltimore is limited. 
 The foreign commerce does not naturally flow into it j it goes to New 
 York. This line of steamers which I speak of is owned at Baltimore, or 
 the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad are responsible for them. 
 
 I understand that the Philadelphia and Pennsylvania Boad, in order 
 to compete with the Baitimore and OhioEailroad, is going into the same 
 business, and when they secure adequate facilities at these places for re- 
 moving the surplus produce of this country which goes to Europe, they 
 will either compel New "Sork to do the same thing, or she will lose her 
 trade. The difference in the cost of shipping by way of Baltimore now 
 is a profit to the owner of the property. 
 
510 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Q. Does any of your produce or manufactures which go east go 
 by water, or is it all sent by rail? . 
 
 A. Mr. Bggleston could answer that question better than I, as ne is a 
 merchant here. 
 
 Mr. Eggleston. I will say that there is nothing which goes toy canal 
 East now at all from these cities. That has been almost abandoned, so 
 far as the through business is concerned. Some property goes cast ironi 
 here by river to Pittsburgh, and other points; some toBellaire, but not 
 much. 
 
 By Mr. ConklinG : 
 
 Q. "When you speak of canals, you speak of the Ohio canals ? 
 
 A. From here to Toledo. That fs the only canal which comes here 
 now. There is ho through business on that canal here at all. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. Can you or any other gentleman give .us the rate prevailing now 
 between here and the East ? 
 
 A. Do you mean the railroad rate ? 
 
 Q. Eail and water. 
 
 A. We have given that for the last year. The railroad charges and 
 the water charges at the present time we could not give. They would 
 not be any indication, for the reason that we have had no water until 
 this rise. The railroad changed their rates every once in a while, and 
 when the river is up they put their rates down. We will give that in a 
 tabulated form. I will say that at the close of water navigation, that 
 is, when the lakes and canals close, the railroads always put up their 
 rates. They have winter and summer rates. With reference to moving 
 by water, all the freight that goes over the Chesapeake and Ohio Bail- 
 road goes by water from here to Huntington. ' That is their connection. 
 A great deal of pork packed for eastern markets used to go by way of 
 New Orleans by water and thence by vessels ; but that was when prices 
 were low and the eastern merchants would come out here and pack their 
 pork in the winter and ship it before it was cured, and it would cure on 
 ship-board. Time was no object to them. The pork was packed in the 
 winter for their summer trade, and they would take it around by Sew 
 Orleans, and by sea to Boston, New York, and Baltimore. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Do you know why the railroads put their rates up in winter ? 
 
 A. One reason they give for it is that it costs more to move freight in 
 winter by rail than it does in summer ; but the principal reason is that 
 there is no water competition, uo lake, no canal to interfere with them, 
 and of course there is more business for the road. It is one of those 
 things which is peculiar to human nature to get all you can. 
 
 Q. We have had various reasons given us, but I wish to know whether 
 you had an opinion that was different. 
 
 A. I think the principal reason is that they want to get all they can, 
 all that competition will allow them to get. They sometimes combine 
 here. Four or five trunk-lines enter here and combine and put rates 
 up arbitrarily, without any other reason than that they want to put 
 them up. Then they work together for a little while and begin to cheat 
 each other, and then they break the rates and do what they call cuttin°\ 
 Then they get them down. They have carried freight from here to New 
 York for 20 and 25 cents a hundred pounds when they would have 
 sharp competition in cutting and fighting each other. Then, when they 
 got tired of that, they would get together and put freights up. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 511 
 
 There are some very peculiar features in this railroad business which 
 I presume you have learned. For instance, I do not think there is any 
 very good reason really to complain of through-rates of railroads ; that 
 is, rates between what is called competing points where there is compe- 
 tition. They are generally low enough. It is at the intermediate sta- 
 tions that the complaints are made. For instance, a man is in New 
 York who lives on the Wabash River, one hundred and fifty or two 
 hundred miles west of here. He can ship freight almost as cheap from 
 New York to the Wabash Eiver as he can to Cincinnati ; and he cau 
 get freight from New York to the Wabash Eiver very often cheaper 
 than he can get it from Cincinnati to the Wabash Eiver, provided he 
 happens to live at a point on the river where there is no competition 
 from here, where but one road has a monopoly of business. They will 
 charge as much for carrying freight from here two hundred miles as 
 they charge him for carrying it all the way from New York {here. The 
 consequence is that the geographical positions amount to very little. 
 It operates against the large cities, and tends to concentrate the busi- 
 ness in New York. I was up on the Marietta Eoad not many months 
 ago, and I found they were paying as much for getting freight from 
 Cincinnati, forty miles from here, as they were paying for carrying it to 
 Baltimore from Cincinnati. But when you start from here, there is 
 competition. When you get up there, there is no competition. You 
 have to ship it by that railroad, or not ship it at all. 
 
 I will mention one instance of a pork-packer at Brookville, Ind., liv- 
 ing on the Bellefontaiue Eoad, as they call it. He wanted to ship pork 
 to New York by car-loads — having several car-loads — and found it paid 
 him to ship pork by that road down to Indianapolis, pay the local freight 
 on it, and then ship it back over the same road to New York ; and I 
 think he told me he saved $40 a car by that operation. He was at 
 Brookville, and he wanted to get to New York, and there was only 
 one road to go there. When he took it down to Indianapolis he had. 
 three or four roads, and went out and got through-rate, and this same 
 road took the freight back. 
 
 John Cochnower examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. What is your business ? 
 
 Answer. The coal business. 
 
 Q. Please state the mode of transporting coal along the Ohio Eiver. 
 
 A. It is run principally in barges now, towed by steamboats. 
 
 Q. Will you give us, if you please, some of the particulars about the 
 barges ; what they will carry ; how they are built, and what they cost? 
 
 A. The average cost of a number one barge is $1,450. They are in 
 size 130 feet long, 24 feet wide, and 7J feet deep. 
 
 Q. How much does each barge hold ? 
 
 A. About 12,000 bushels ; and there are some smaller ones, but that 
 is the general size used. There are some a great deal larger. 
 
 Q. How many of these are formed into what you call a tow ? 
 
 A. That depends upon the capacity of the boat; some taking ten, 
 and some twenty, in a tow ; and some larger ones have even taken thirty 
 at a tow to New Orleans. 
 
 Q. Are they always tugged down, or do they float ? 
 
 A. They are tugged. They do not float of late years. They used to 
 do a great deal of floating, but there has been very little floated for ten 
 years now. 
 
512 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Q. What is the effect of the obstruction at the Louisville Falls as to 
 these floats or tows ? Do you break them up ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we have to break them up. 
 
 Q. Each boat goes through the lock separately ? 
 
 A. They can take four of these ordinary sized barges at a time. . lMy 
 run a great many flat-boats, 28 feet in width, and 160 or lbO feet in 
 length. 
 
 Q. But as to the barges ? 
 
 A. They take four through the new locks. 
 
 Q. They never float over the falls ? 
 
 A When the river is at a high stage they go right on. There are 
 stages of water when it is perfectly smooth, and they never break their 
 tow! But at an ordinary stage of water they have to break their tows 
 and take them through the canal. 
 
 Q. What is the charge for towage ? Do you pay the whole charge 
 for the use of the boat and towage in one charge ? 
 
 A. The principal owners of these barges own their boats and do their 
 own towing. It all runs in the same account. In going through the 
 canal they lock through four. They used to lock two, but I believe 
 they lock four now. 
 
 Q. State if you please the cost of towing per bushel from Pittsburgh 
 to Louisville 1 ? 
 
 A. From 2 to 3 cents a bushel. 
 
 Q. That is the cost of towing alone? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But where they supply the boats, what is the cost of the boat? 
 
 A. I cannot tell you. I have been in the running business for a good 
 many years myself. We own our own barges and boats, and it all goes 
 into the general account. W 7 e do not keep each separately. The cost 
 of the coal is so much put in the barges, and then the aggregate amount 
 and expenses are so much. I do not think we could say exactly what it 
 would cost. 
 
 Q. Could you give us an idea of about the cost of a bushel of coal 
 from Pittsburgh to Louisville ? 
 
 A. I think you can take an average of 2J cents as the towing, but 
 that does not take into account the wear and tear of the barges. 
 
 Q. I want to include everything. 
 
 A. They consider the trip about a cent a bushel, the way they count 
 their barges if they hire them out. They think they are worth a cent 
 a bushel a trip. * 
 
 Q. That would be three and a half? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think three and a half would cover all the expense 
 and keep the barges up. 
 
 Q. What is the distance from Pittsburgh to Louisville ? 
 
 A. It is about six hundred and fifty miles. 
 
 Q. Does that include getting the barges back ? 
 
 A. Sometimes it does and sometimes it does not. I suppose that will 
 pay the whole for taking them back. 
 
 Q. Three and a half to four cents'? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much less is it to Cincinnati? 
 
 A. There is very little difference. 
 
 Q. From Louisville to New Orleans, what is then the cost? 
 
 A. I do not know from there. I have sent our own boat through 
 from Pittsburgh at 7 cents. 
 
 Q. From Pittsburgh through to New Orleans 7 cents? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 513 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; to bring the barges back. 
 
 Q. Now describe, if you please, the other boats which are not barges, 
 and which you call flat-boats. 
 
 A. They are a more temporary thing with an inch and a half to two 
 inch pine plank on the sides, and thin bottoms. They never pretend 
 to bring them back, and yet they have of late, when boats have got so 
 high, commenced to bring them back. 
 
 Q. "What was their value ? 
 
 A. One of them rigged up will cost about $1,200. They carry from 
 twenty-five to thirty thousand bushels. 
 
 Q. What becomes of them when they deliver their cargoes at New 
 Orleans'! 
 
 A. They wreck them and use the lumber. 
 
 Q. To what extent are flats used 1 
 
 A. The southern market is principally supplied by these. 
 
 Q. All below Louisville 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir. That is, below the mouth of the Mississippi — the 
 mouth of the Ohio rather. 
 
 Q. What proportion of coal is carried in barges and what proportion 
 in flats? 
 
 A. I should think two-thirds in barges. There is scarcely ever a boat 
 unloaded here. This market and Louisville are principally supplied by 
 the barge trade. 
 
 Q. Mr. Smith has given us an estimate of the coal on the river at 
 seventy-five millions. How do you make it out ? 
 
 A. Seventy -five millions of bushels for the year ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. 
 
 A. The last year, I think, you will find it will run to a hundred mil- 
 lions. 
 
 Q. How do you know. that; what record have you? " 
 
 A. We know that by the amount of coal run into this market, Louis- 
 ville, New Orleans, and Memphis. We have a kind of a register which 
 we keep. We know everything which goes out each trip from Pitts- 
 burgh and along the river. We make up an aggregate amount from 
 these figures. I think you will find that last year will cover a hundred 
 millions. And that is supplied from the Pittsburgh works and Kanawha 
 works, and all those places along the.river. 
 
 Q. What proportion of it from Pittsburgh 1 ? 
 
 A. I think about three-fifths. 
 
 Q. To what extent does the Kanawha supply you with coal now? 
 
 A. That is on the increase very largely-,' and so rapidly that I cannot 
 tell exactly. There is about ten millions from the neighborhood of 
 Pomeroy run out in a year, and probably twelve millions and a half 
 further down here on the Ohio. 
 
 Q. You have given us the quantity of coal on the river. Can you 
 state the quantity of coal transported to Cincinnati by rail ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I have no means of giving you any information on that 
 point. For the last two years there has been considerable coal come 
 in by rail. But previous to that not much except in cases of scarcity, 
 when we have to resort to all kinds of means to get it. But there is a 
 regular trade now opened up from Indiana here, that is running steady. 
 To what extent, however, I cannot say. 
 
 Q. What was the cause of the scarcity last winter ? 
 
 A. Low water and hard weather together. 
 
 Q. How many days in a year is the Ohio Eiver obstructed from bftrge 
 or flat navigationby ice on an average? 
 33 ts 
 
514 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. I have known it for six or seven years when we w %re scarce^ ^ 
 terrupted at all, and then it would run six or seven years together wnen 
 it was very severe every winter. ^„, n i f i von hp 
 
 Q. In case it was severe, how many days or months would you be 
 obstructed, as near as you can get at it? 
 
 A. If I had thought of coming here I could have brought you some 
 more definite information, for I have had these facts on a record which 
 I keep. , I can tell about from the arrival of the tows until they come 
 •again. There have been times that it has run over two months that we 
 never got a barge in, and that was caused by the ice m the winter. 
 
 Q How long are you interrupted in this navigation by low water? 
 
 A That varies, just about as much as the ice. This year we have 
 had very little interruption. That is, from the lower part of the Ohio 
 down, about six weeks here now I think. 
 
 Q. Can you give us the exact time by reference to your books and 
 papers ? 
 
 A. Very nearly. 
 
 Q. For the last eight or ten years? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; thirty years. I have the arrival of the different tows 
 here along through those dates. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. Of what part of the river do you speak when it is closed by ice? 
 
 A. From here up. From here to Louisville, and even to the mouth 
 of the Ohio. 
 
 Q. From Cairo up ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And of what when you speak of low water ? 
 
 A. It is about the same thing. Of course we can run to Pomeroy 
 and that vicinity longer than we can to Pittsburgh. 
 
 Q. The worst shoals are above the Big Sandy ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Smith. There is a part of the coal trade of the river which 
 has not been referred to yet, and that is the lower Ohio. It has got to 
 be a very large business. They have coal-mines right on the river, be- 
 low Evansville, for instance. 
 
 Mr. Cochnower. That is principally confined to the supply of steam- 
 boats. They do not run it down of any consequence. 
 
 Mr. Smith. They run it down to supply towns. I am interested in 
 one where it is delivered at the landing at 10 cents a bushel. 
 
 Mr. Cochnower. That is coal of a very inferior quality. It is very 
 poor. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. What is the value of coal on barge or fiats at Pittsburgh ? 
 A. Seven cents. 
 Q. That is the general run ? 
 A. Yes, sir ; and that has been the price for three years. 
 
 By Mr. Conexing : ' 
 
 Q. What kind of coal? 
 A. Pittsburgh coal. 
 Q. Bituminous coal ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. SHERMAN : 
 Q. How is it with the Kanawha and Pomeroy coal ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 515 
 
 A. 1 think they are charging about the same price there for it loaded 
 in boats. 
 
 Q. All of them about the same 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we are charging 7 cents at Pomeroy, I know. 
 
 Q. What is the lowest point of coal production along the Ohio River 
 above Cincinnati. Is it Ironton 1 
 
 A. I forget the name of the works. The Sheridan Works, I think. 
 
 Q. From there on up to Pittsburgh it is a coal-field, as I understand ? 
 
 A. There is coal all along from there on. Though there are mines 
 above Pomeroy after you leave Syracuse and Hartford City a few miles 
 until you get to Steubenville, there are no mines on the Ohio. 
 
 Q. There are some on the Muskingum ? 
 
 A. I think not. 
 
 By Mr. Conkxing- : 
 Q. All the coal that you speak of is bituminous coal; that is, none of 
 it is anthracite ? 
 A. That is so, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Is there any cannel-coal along the Ohio Biver ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; there is up the Kanawha. They had some cannel-coal 
 up here about Ashland a while, but I think it all run out. They had a 
 little vein there. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Is there a difference between the value on board of Pittsburgh 
 and Wheeling and Kanawha coals ? 
 
 A. The Pittsburgh coal brings more money than any. Of course it is 
 a little more expensive running, and a little farther. There is a lockage 
 to pay, &c, which you do not have on the other. 
 
 By Mr. Conkxing : 
 Q. But no distinction in the quality of the coal ! 
 A. O, yes, there is a distinction. Toughigany coal sells generally 
 from two to four cents higher in the market. 
 
 Mr. Sherman: 
 
 Q. Tou mean lockages on the Monongahela Biver ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is a private company, is it not ? 
 
 A. I do not know whether it is owned by a private company or not. 
 Governor Morehead has been president of it for a good many years. 
 I think it is a private corporation. 
 
 Cincinnati, October 29, 1873. 
 Dear Sir : Inclosed I send you table of statistics showing the number of times each, 
 month for ten years, between 1863 and 1873, the Pomeroy Company has been able to 
 run coal to Cincinnati. 
 
 Respectfully, > 
 
 JOHN COCHNOWER. 
 Hon. John Sherman, 
 
 Saint Louia, Mo. 
 
516 TBANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOAED. 
 
 Dates of trips made from, October, 1863, to October, 1873. 
 
 1863. 
 Nov. 10 
 
 Nov. 14 
 Nov. 18 
 Dec. 23 
 
 1866. 
 Jan. 23 
 
 April 
 April 
 April 
 
 15 
 
 17 
 23 
 
 July 
 Aug. 
 Aug. 
 
 16 
 
 10 
 11 
 
 1870. 
 Jan. 10 
 
 April 
 
 May 
 
 May 
 
 25 
 3 
 6 
 
 June 29 
 July 3 
 July 4 
 July 20 
 
 Nov. 
 
 16 
 
 Dec. 31 
 
 Feb. 
 
 1 
 
 April 
 
 29 
 
 Aug. 
 
 12 
 
 Feb. 12 
 
 May 
 
 8 
 
 Nov. 
 
 16 
 
 
 Feb. 
 
 22 
 
 April 
 
 30 
 
 Sept. 
 
 16 
 
 Feb. 19 
 
 May 
 
 15 
 
 July 22 
 
 Nov. 
 
 19 
 
 1865. 
 
 Mar. 
 
 2 
 
 May 
 
 4 
 
 Sept. 
 
 20 
 
 Feb. 26 
 
 May 
 
 22 
 
 July 31 
 
 Nov. 
 
 25 
 
 
 Mar. 
 
 5 
 
 May 
 
 7 
 
 Sept. 
 
 28 
 
 Mar. 3 
 
 May 
 
 29 
 
 Nov. 1 
 
 Nov. 
 
 26 
 
 Jan. 2 
 
 Mar. 
 
 7 
 
 May 
 
 11 
 
 Nov. 
 
 13 
 
 Mar. 12 
 
 June 
 
 29 
 
 Nov. 2 
 
 Dec. 
 
 4 
 
 Jan. 16 
 
 Mar. 
 
 13 
 
 May 
 
 16 
 
 
 
 Mar. 16 
 
 July 
 
 7 
 
 Nov. 4 
 
 Dec. 
 
 12 
 
 Jan. 19 
 
 Mar. 
 
 15 
 
 May 
 
 18 
 
 1869. 
 
 Mar. 22 
 
 July 
 
 17 
 
 Nov. 8 
 
 Deo. 
 
 16 
 
 Feb. 18 
 
 Mar, 
 
 22 
 
 May 
 
 25 
 
 
 
 Mar. 28 
 
 July 
 
 20 
 
 Nov. 13 
 
 Deo. 
 
 21 
 
 Feb. 24 
 
 Mar. 
 
 26 
 
 May 
 
 29 
 
 Jan. 
 
 14 
 
 April 8 
 
 July 
 
 24 
 
 Nov. 29 
 
 Dec. 
 
 23 
 
 Feb. 28 
 
 Mar. 
 
 28 
 
 June 
 
 4 
 
 Jan. 
 
 21 
 
 April 18 
 
 Aug. 
 
 17 
 
 Dec. 11 
 
 
 
 Mar. 13 
 
 April 
 
 4 
 
 June 
 
 14 
 
 Feb. 
 
 2 
 
 April 30 
 
 Nov. 
 
 1 
 
 
 1864. 
 
 Mar. 18 
 
 April 
 
 11 
 
 June 
 
 25 
 
 Feb. 
 
 9 
 
 May 7 
 
 Nov. 
 
 22 
 
 1873. 
 
 
 
 Mar. 20 
 
 April 
 
 19 
 
 June 
 
 29 
 
 Feb. 
 
 15 
 
 May 12 
 
 Nov. 
 
 30 
 
 
 Feb. 
 
 2 
 
 Mar. 28 
 
 April 
 
 26 
 
 Nov. 
 
 9 
 
 Feb. 
 
 22 
 
 May. 17 
 
 Dec. 
 
 4 
 
 Jan. 25 
 
 Feb. 
 
 8 
 
 April 1 
 
 April 
 
 28 
 
 Nov. 
 
 14 
 
 Mar. 
 
 6 
 
 May 21 
 
 
 
 Feb. 4 
 
 Feb. 
 
 12 
 
 April 3 
 
 May 
 
 4 
 
 Dec. 
 
 11 
 
 Mar. 
 
 15 
 
 May 25 
 
 1872. 
 
 Feb. 6 
 
 Feb. 
 
 29 
 
 April 10 
 
 May 
 
 10 
 
 Dec. 
 
 16 
 
 Mar. 
 
 22 
 
 May 27 
 
 
 
 Feb. 15 
 
 Mar. 
 
 5 
 
 April 17 
 
 May 
 
 11 
 
 Dec. 
 
 17 
 
 Mar. 
 
 26 
 
 May 28 
 
 Jan. 
 
 2 
 
 Feb. 17 
 
 Mar. 
 
 9 
 
 April 20 
 
 May 
 
 14 
 
 Dec. 
 
 27 
 
 April 
 
 6 
 
 June 3 
 
 Jan. 
 
 4 
 
 Feb. 19 
 
 Mar. 
 
 14 
 
 April 27 
 
 May 
 
 19 
 
 
 
 April 
 
 28 
 
 June 4 
 
 Jan. 
 
 9 
 
 Feb. 22 
 
 Mar. 
 
 18 
 
 May 4 
 
 May 
 
 21 
 
 1868. 
 
 April 
 
 30 
 
 June 10 
 
 Jan. 
 
 15 
 
 Feb. 25 
 
 Mar. 
 
 24 
 
 May 6 
 
 June 
 
 8 
 
 
 
 May 
 
 4 
 
 June 20 
 
 Jan. 
 
 21 
 
 Mar. 4 
 
 Mar. 
 
 26. 
 
 May 10 
 
 June 
 
 14 
 
 Jan. 
 
 1 
 
 May 
 
 7 
 
 June 21 
 
 Feb. 
 
 23 
 
 Mar. 12 
 
 April 
 
 4 
 
 May 14 
 
 June 
 
 19 
 
 Jan. 
 
 4 
 
 May 
 
 14 
 
 June 25 
 
 Feb. 
 
 24 
 
 Mar. 18 
 
 April 
 
 5 
 
 May 22 
 
 June 
 
 25 
 
 Jan. 
 
 13 
 
 May 
 
 24 
 
 Nov. 4 
 
 Feb. 
 
 29 
 
 Mar. 24 
 
 April 
 
 11 
 
 May 25 
 
 July 
 
 30 
 
 Feb. 
 
 24 
 
 May 
 
 25 
 
 Nov. 9 
 
 Mar. 
 
 6 
 
 April 1 
 
 April 
 
 16 
 
 June 3 
 
 Aug. 
 
 23 
 
 Feb. 
 
 26 
 
 May 
 
 31 
 
 Nov. 11 
 
 Mar. 
 
 7 
 
 April 4 
 
 April 
 
 27 
 
 June 10 
 
 Oct. 
 
 20 
 
 Mar. 
 
 3 
 
 June 
 
 5 
 
 Dec. 4 
 
 Mar. 
 
 14 
 
 April 14 
 
 May 
 
 3 
 
 June 17 
 
 Nov. 
 
 3 
 
 Mar. 
 
 7 
 
 June 
 
 14 
 
 Dec. 9 
 
 Mar. 
 
 16 
 
 April 24 
 
 May 
 
 9 
 
 June 28 
 
 Nov. 
 
 9 
 
 Mar. 
 
 17 
 
 June 
 
 30 
 
 Dec. 19 
 
 Mar. 
 
 19 
 
 May 1 
 
 May 
 
 13 
 
 July 1 
 
 Nov. 
 
 16 
 
 Mar. 
 
 20 
 
 July 
 
 6 
 
 
 Mar. 
 
 25 
 
 May 10 
 
 May 
 
 16 
 
 July 8 
 
 Nov. 
 
 21 
 
 Mar. 
 
 27 
 
 July 
 
 12 
 
 1871. 
 
 Mar. 
 
 28 
 
 May 15 
 
 May 
 
 26 
 
 July 14 
 
 Dec. 
 
 4 
 
 April 
 
 3 
 
 Aug. 
 
 6 
 
 
 April 
 
 5 
 
 May 17 
 
 May 
 
 28 
 
 July 20 
 
 Dec. 
 
 13 
 
 April 
 
 10 
 
 Aug. 
 
 10 
 
 Jan. 26 
 
 April 
 
 10 
 
 May 23 
 
 June 
 
 3 
 
 July 29 
 
 Dec. 
 
 18 
 
 April 
 
 14 
 
 Aug. 
 
 12 
 
 Feb. 10 
 
 April 
 
 11 
 
 May 25 
 
 June 
 
 6 
 
 Aug. 4 
 
 
 
 April 
 
 22 
 
 Sept. 
 
 15 
 
 Feb. 13 
 
 April 
 
 23 
 
 June 1 
 
 June 
 
 10 
 
 Aug. 14 
 
 186; 
 
 
 April 
 
 30 
 
 Sept. 
 
 16 
 
 Feb. 16 
 
 April 27 
 
 June 8 
 
 June 
 
 16 
 
 Sept. 1 
 
 
 
 May 
 
 4 
 
 Sept. 
 
 21 
 
 Feb. 18 
 
 May 
 
 2 
 
 June 19 
 
 June 
 
 17 
 
 Sept. 6 
 
 Mar. 
 
 3 
 
 May 
 
 11 
 
 Oct. 
 
 4 
 
 Feb. 20 
 
 May 
 
 8 
 
 July 5 
 
 Aug. 
 
 24 
 
 Sept. 18 
 
 Mar. 
 
 10 
 
 May 
 
 16 
 
 Nov. 
 
 20 
 
 Feb. 22 
 
 May 
 
 13 
 
 July 12 
 
 Aug. 
 
 25 
 
 Nov. 1 
 
 Mar. 
 
 16 
 
 May 
 
 22 
 
 Nov. 
 
 25 
 
 Mar. 1 
 
 May 
 
 14 
 
 July 21 
 
 Sept. 
 
 1 
 
 Nov. 11 
 
 Mar. 
 
 21 
 
 May 
 
 28 
 
 Nov. 
 
 27 
 
 Mar. 6 
 
 May 
 
 22 
 
 Aug. 2 
 
 Sept. 
 
 14 
 
 Dec. 12 
 
 Mar. 
 
 26 
 
 June 
 
 1 
 
 Dec. 
 
 11 
 
 Mar. 11 
 
 June 
 
 1 
 
 Aug. 7 
 
 Sept. 
 
 23 
 
 Dec. 14 
 
 Mar. 
 
 27 
 
 June 
 
 8 
 
 Dec. 
 
 17 
 
 Mar. 17 
 
 June 
 
 8 
 
 Aug. 18 
 
 Oct. 
 
 6 
 
 Dec. 15 
 
 April 
 
 2 
 
 June 
 
 15 
 
 Dec. 
 
 27 
 
 Mar. 22 
 
 June 
 
 10 
 
 Aug. 26 
 
 Oct. 
 
 10 
 
 Dec. 18 
 
 April 
 
 4 
 
 June 
 
 22 
 
 Dec. 
 
 30 
 
 Mar. 29 
 
 June 
 
 15 
 
 Aug. 28 
 
 Oct. 
 
 15 
 
 Dec. 26 
 
 April 
 
 10 
 
 June 
 
 30 
 
 
 
 Mar. 31 
 
 June 
 
 17 
 
 Oct. 22 
 
 Oct. 
 
 21 
 
 
 April 
 
 13 
 
 July 
 
 3 
 
 
 
 April 8 
 
 June 
 
 21 
 
 
 L. E. Hull, iron-merchant, examined : 
 
 Mr. Hull. Gentlemen, I was called upon without any notice, and I 
 do not know that I can give you many facts in relation to the iron busi- 
 ness. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. "We desire to know first the kind of ores that are found 
 along the Ohio and the Kanawha Rivers, and along the line which we 
 have been traveling over. What kind of ore is found at Ashland i 
 
 Answer. Do you mean the kind of ore used at the furnaces 1 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 517 
 
 Q. No, sir ; the kind which is found there— the local ores found in 
 the neighborhood. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. As distinguished from ores like the Iron Mountain 
 ore which they bring from Missouri and other regions. 
 
 A. The ores used in the Hanging Eock region, in the neighborhood of 
 Portsmouth and Ironton, are called by the furnaces limestone and block 
 ores. Limestone ores make a neutral iron. The block ores mixed with 
 the limestone make what they call coldshort. The Missouri ores are red- 
 short ores ; that is, Iron Mountain is very strongly redshort, and ■other 
 Missouri ores are less redshort. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman: 
 
 Q. What do you mean by redshort ! 
 
 A. I mean that when these ores are smelted and made into iron they 
 -are weak when hot — short when hot or red. They break easily when 
 red, and the coldshort iron breaks easily when cold. The mixture of 
 these ores produces what is ordinarily wanted ; that is, a neutral iron, 
 and you can understand it requires a good deal of skill to mix just a 
 certain percentage of the ores to produce what is wanted. 
 
 Q. Is that the explanation of the use of the different ores ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. To what extent is iron ore brought to Cincinnati f 
 
 A. That would vary very much from year to year. I should say, 
 speaking of Cincinnati, Covington, and Newport, on both sides of the 
 river, that it would vary from sixty to one hundred thousand tons, with- 
 out referring to any figures. That is one of the items I would have been 
 glad to have posted myself upon somewhat. 
 
 Q. Will you state the cost of transporting that iron ore from the 
 Hanging Eock region or the Kanawha region, or wherever you get it, to 
 this point? How much will it cost per ton ? 
 
 A. The cost of transporting iron ore from the Iron Mountains to Cin- 
 cinnati would vary from three and a half to four dollars per gross ton of 
 .2,240 pounds. The Tennessee iron ores are also used in mixture with the 
 Iron Mountain ores, and would cost from three to three and a half dollars 
 per gross ton. 
 
 Q. Do you use the Hanging Eock iron ores to any extent here in Cin- 
 cinnati? 
 
 A. No, sir ; the Hanging Eock ores are not transported to any great 
 
 extent. They are used in the furnaces at Ironton and Ashland as a 
 
 t .mixture with the Missouri ores. They transport from the Iron Mountain 
 
 ' to their furnaces, and use about from one to two thirds of the Iron 
 
 -Mountan ores mixed with the native ores. 
 
 Q. Do you use any Ohio or Kentucky ores in your furnaces here in Cin- 
 cinnati ? 
 
 A. I never have known it, and I think I should have known it if the 
 Hanging Eock ore had ever been brought here for that purpose., 
 
 Q. I speak of any Ohio ore. Do you get any from anywhere along 
 in Ohio in the iron region besides the Hanging Eock? 
 
 A. Not in any large quantities; no, sir. Canada ore is brought here 
 to some extent. 
 
 Q. Do you get any Lake Superier ore ? 
 
 A. Lake Superior ore is used here occasionally to a very small extent 
 in the mills. 1 do not think it has ever been used in the furnaces. That 
 would be a very small matter. , 
 
 Q. To what extent do you use here .the pig-iron of the upper Ohio 
 ■country? 
 
513 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. The imports of pig-iron here amount to about 100,000 ' t° nS ' fl ^ 
 that would be divided I could not tell you without reference to figures 
 
 Q. What is the general market of the pig-iron of the Upper unio 
 country ; where do they sell it? „ 
 
 A. Do you mean the furnaces between here and Pittsburgh I 
 
 f~\ "V"zio mi™ 
 
 A. The market, for instance, of the Ironton furnaces is at Ronton, 
 Cincinnati, and Louisville. They may occasionally send iron to the mills 
 up the river at Wheeling and Pittsburgh, but not very largely I think. 
 
 Q. Are there any railroad-iron rolling-mills here? _ 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; there are two mills, one on this side- of the river and 
 one on the other side. 
 
 Q. Do they make their pig, or do they buy it ? 
 
 A. They buy altogether. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What is the distance from here to the Iron Mountains, from whence 
 these ores are brought ? 
 
 A. By river do you mean ? 
 
 Q. By whatever way they come ? 
 
 A. By reason of low water, a large part of the ore which has been 
 used here within' the last two years has come by rail. 
 
 Q. From Saint Louis ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. The distance is three hundred and forty miles. 
 
 Q. These charges of which you speak are railroad charges, from three 
 to four dollars ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I was speaking of river freight. The railroad freight is 
 $2.80 per gross ton. The transfer at Saint Louis is 70 cents per gross 
 ton. That makes $3.50 per gross ton by rail. That is from the Iron 
 Mountain of Missouri. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. The distance by river is how far from Cincinnati to Saint Louis ? 
 
 A. It is pretty nearly eight hundred miles. 
 
 Q. The distance is more than double, then, by river what it is by rail? 
 
 A. In bringing ore by river there is a great advantage to the furnace. 
 Barges are laid right alongside of the furnaces, and it is taken up by 
 machinery. If it goes by railroad, it costs the furnace, I suppose, a dol- 
 lar a ton extra. 
 
 Q. What proportion of the ore here is brought by water, and what 
 proportion by rail, as near as you can get at it, taking the year round? 
 I mean from the Iron Mountain region. 
 
 A. I should think that, until within two or three years, probably 90 
 per cent, of the ore had come by river, the furnaces laying in their stocks 
 when the river was up in advance. But within the last two or three 
 years the railroads have been disposed to compete, and have given very 
 low prices ; $2.80 for three hundred and forty miles is a pretty low price 
 on a railroad. 
 
 Q. What proportion now, taking the present year as your guide, or 
 last year, if you please, would be by rail ? 
 
 A. That is one of the facts that could be ascertained, but I have net 
 the calculations with me. 
 
 Q. Have you competing railroad-lines between here and Saint Louis? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q, What are they? 
 
 A. The Ohio and Mississippi, the Vandalia, and the Indianapolis, Cin- 
 cinnati and Saint Louis, I think the routes are called. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 519 
 
 Q. Three different routes f 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Oonkxing : 
 
 Q. In what parts of Ohio have iron-mines been found and worked? 
 
 A. The Hanging Eock region, about Portsmouth, Ironton, and Mas- 
 sillon. 
 
 Q. Where is that? 
 
 A. I do not know in what county Massillon is. 
 
 Q. Where in reference to the river ? 
 
 A. It is off and away from the river. It is rather central. This. 
 Hanging Eock region includes I don't kuow how many counties ; but it 
 runs clear back. Everything is called Hanging Eock ore in that neigh- 
 borhood, reaching as far out as they can call it so, because it is an ore 
 that, made into charcoal-iron, has a very high reputation. 
 
 Q. What is the extent of the Hanging Eock region on the river? 
 How far does it extend up and down the river ? 
 
 A. I should think a hundred miles would cover it. 
 
 Q. Extending back from the river how far ? 
 
 A. Perhaps sixty miles. 
 
 Q. The other region you refer to is how far from the river ? 
 
 A. I do not know how far Massillon is away. There is a canal from 
 Portsmouth to Cleveland. 
 
 Q. Did you speak of a third iron region ? 
 
 A. There is the Mahoning region, which I am not familiar enough,, 
 with to speak of. 
 
 Q. And you do not know the access by water there? 
 
 A. I think there is no canal through. 
 
 Q. How many iron-mines are there in this region working now? 
 
 A. In the Hanging Eock region, for instance, they get their ore by 
 stripping. It is a very superficial way of getting ore. That is merely 
 for their own purposes. Do you mean for shipping purposes ? 
 
 Q. Yes; that will simplify it. How many iron-mines are there in 
 Ohio from which iron is shipped or moved to other places or markets ? ' 
 
 A. Do you mean ore ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir ; iron ore . 
 
 A. I do not think the Hanging-Eock ore is used. I do not think it is 
 shipped up or down the river. 
 
 Q. But it is consumed substantially on the spot, is it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How is it as to the other region ? 
 
 A. I do not think the Massilon is shipped. 
 
 Q. Then it is used up by furnaces there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They send manufactured iron from there? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And from the two regions to which you have referred, one being 
 on the river, and the other being connected by canal, they have water- 
 communication ? 
 
 A- Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then they use ore which is brought to these furnaces from other 
 places, and conspicuously from the Iron Mountain, Missouri 1 
 
 A. To explain. The Hanging-Eock iron, so called, is a charcoal-iron 
 altogether. There are, say, fifty or sixty furnaces. These charcoal-fur- 
 naces use no foreign ore whatever. It is comparatively few furnaces, 
 which use bituminous coal or coke in smelting ore, that use Iron-Moan- 
 
520 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 tain ore, and mix with it the native ores, which they buy near ttem-- 
 the Ironton and Ashland, and furnaces m the neighborhood ot wneei 
 
 " Q a Howmany are there, then, of these bituminous-coal furnaces which 
 
 aS A f0 Thfr n e a r r e e two here. There is one large doable-stacked furnace .at 
 Ironton and one at Ashland, and above that I could not give you the 
 furnaces in detail. There are a large number above. 
 
 Q. Is there any difficulty in obtaining the complement of foreign ore 
 during the season of the year when the river is opened both by reason 
 of the absence of ice and low water ? 
 
 A. The Iron-Mountain ore is a very high-priced ore, and there is great 
 difficulty in obtaining it for that reason. 
 
 1 Q. But the point of my question is this : we will assume that the river 
 is free from ice and free from low water eight months in the year ; is there 
 any difficulty during that eight months in accumulating at these fur- 
 naces all foreign ores which they work ? I mean so far as transpor- 
 tation is concerned. 
 
 A. Tes, sir. The difficulty is that during that period it is impossible 
 to load the boats at the Iron-Mountain dumps. 
 
 Q. During which period ? 
 
 A. During the period of high water. 
 
 Q. Why is that ? 
 
 A. It is because only a limited number of barges can be loaded there, 
 and steamers often have to wait four to six weeks, I think I am safe in 
 saying. 
 
 Q. For a load ! 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and they have to lay by for others. They have to wait 
 and take their turn. 
 
 Q. So that if they run to their fullest capacity for two-thirds of the 
 year it is not enough to do the business 1 
 
 A. I would not put it exactly in that shape. I only say that as 
 the business is actually carried on, there is great difficulty in getting 
 their supplies by river for that reason. When the low water comes on 
 there is still left a large quantity of ore. 
 
 Q. So that, if I understand you, a given equipment of boats which, if 
 they could load all the year round, would be sufficient, are insufficient 
 if they run for only eight months ; but there is nothing in the nature of 
 the ore, or in the outcome of the ore, which would prevent them from 
 bringing it in the eight months if you had sufficient transportation 
 equipment to bring it in that time 1 
 
 A. Is it a fact that there are, eight months in the year ? 
 
 Q. I take that time as a given time. I suppose it is so from the state- 
 ment made here. The gentleman who preceded you said that there 
 would be some low water for six weeks, and ice six weeks sometimes. 
 There would be ice sometimes for a very short time for a series of years, 
 so that to average it I assume eight months of free navigation. 
 
 A. I should not think there would be anything like that. 
 
 Q. Well, say six months. But that is an unimportant thing for my 
 question. I want to find out what the difficulty is in getting the ore by 
 water to the point you want it. Suppose it is six months ; what is the 
 difficulty in getting it in that six months when there is competent 
 navigation ? 
 
 A. The difficulty would be that there are very few furnaces who are 
 able to furnish the capital to move within one-half the year the stock 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 521 
 
 that they need for the entire year. It would make too great a draft on 
 the capital, if it was required to be held. 
 
 Q. 1 wish to find out what this difficulty is with the free river, six 
 months of the year, of transporting and accumulating ore enough to 
 run the furnaces for a year, and I wish you would state all the diffi- 
 culties that there are. 
 
 A. I should think that within the last year — and I am merely giving 
 this in a conversational way — I should think there had been six 
 months during ihe season that it was impossible to bring ore from the 
 Iron Mountains to Cincinnati. I mean six months at a time. Mr. 
 Sherlock, how would that be? 
 
 Mr. Sherlock. I think you overestimate the time. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. Tou are troubling yourself with an element which is not em- 
 bodied in my question. I will assume now there is free naviga- 
 tion for only six months ; or, if you wish me, for only five months. Fix 
 any time you please, and then I want you to tell me the difficulties 
 during that time of buying and transporting all the foreign ore that 
 any furnace, charcoal or bituminpus — if both use it — want to use for 
 that year. 
 
 A. Tou can understand that the Iron Mountain Company work 
 twelve months in the year, and the ore can be taken away about as fast 
 as it is mined only. There would then be difficulty in transporting ore 
 in five months that they would mine in twelve months. During a high- 
 water season, boats are required to lie by so long that they are fre- 
 quently thrown into the ice and cut down by the ice, and that has been 
 done repeatedly year after year. There were quite a large number last 
 season that were detained. It was impossible to load them and get them 
 off before the ice cut them down last winter. 
 
 Q. Are there any other difficulties that you know of? 
 
 A. I do not think of any others. Of course there is the difficulty of 
 low water, and the difficulty of the canal at Louisville, the general 
 difficulty of getting through the river. 
 
 Q. And except for what you have staged, you know no reason why 
 the foreign ores should not, during the season of navigation, be brought 
 in sufficient quantities to run the furnaces for a year? 
 
 A. I do not think of anything just at this moment. 
 
 Q. Now as to the outgo of the iron. During what time of the year 
 is the iron sent from these furnaces ? 
 
 A. Pretty regularly all the year round, except during low water or ice. 
 I am speaking now more particularly from the Hanging Eock region 
 here. The Hanging Eock region is a very large source of supply for 
 pig-iron for this market. 
 
 Q. You do not know, I think, the proportion of that iron that goes 
 by rail or water ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Speaking of that which goes by water, is there any reason for its 
 going one part of the year more than another except the inconvenience 
 of holding stock ? 
 
 A. These charcoal-furnaces are out of blast for a period of about three 
 months. 
 
 Q. When is that? 
 
 A. They go out of blast, ordinarily, from January to March. 
 
 Q. It is during that time that the ice occurs, if at all? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it is very apt to, during that period. 
 
522 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Q. So that while they are in blast they are troubled ^y nothing ex- 
 cept low water, when that occurs, as to the sending away of their iron . 
 
 A. Their iron, for instance, made up to January is not shipped ; can- 
 not be shipped ; is not always shipped ; may be held by the market. 11 
 there is a dull market the furnaces may accumulate from beptemDer to 
 January. December is usually a very dull mouth in the market, ana 
 November begins to be a very dull month. So that they are not 
 obliged to hold it there, because they could ship it to Cincinnati, but it 
 would cost an additional expense, and their general custom is to hold it 
 until about the time that the market demands it, so that it is governed 
 from year to year by the state of the market. 
 
 Q. But as to the actual transportation, the water furnishes abundant 
 facilities for sending it away. That is true, is it not, as to the bitumi- 
 nous iron— iron made at bituminous-coal-burning furnaces ? There is 
 abundant opportunity while the water is up and while there is no ice, to 
 send away the whole product of their mills, except for the inconveni- 
 ence which it might be to hold it at times or to send it at times, when 
 if they were governed exclusively by the market they would not do it. 
 That is the truth about it, is it not ? 
 
 A. When there is high water in the Ohio Eiver, I would say that 
 there was no limit to the amount of the iron ore that could be trans- 
 ported upon it if you had plenty of steamboats and barges. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. How far is that iron ore mined from the place of delivery on 
 barges ? What is the distance from the Iron Mountain to the river 1 
 
 A. It is sixty or eighty miles. 
 
 Q. Saint Louis is the terminus of the railroad? 
 
 A. At Carondelet, just below Saint Louis. 
 
 Q. Have they facilities for accumulating large supplies to wait the 
 rise of the water at the landing at Carondelet ? 
 
 A. They usually have. Of course it varies very much. They usually 
 have quite a large quantity at what they call the "dump," which is at 
 Carondelet, and the iron ore is just pitched over the bank of the river. 
 
 Q. Do you know how much supply they could accumulate there — how 
 many days' or weeks' supplies for shipment on barges in places prepared 
 for that purpose 1 
 
 A. I could not give you exact information on that subject. A very 
 large quantity, I should think. 
 
 Q. As a matter of course, the shorter the season of navigation, the 
 higher would be the prices usually charged by the boats during a shorter 
 season. It is a question of cost, then, as to whether the cost of trans- 
 portation will be increased by the shortness of the season 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and by ice. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. One word as to that. Is that quite true f Suppose you had on the 
 Ohio Eiver an equipment of boats sufficient to do all the business, 
 would not competition have the same effect of reducing prices if the 
 season of navigation was eight months that it would if it was ten f 
 
 A. I think you are supposing a state of facts that never existed. 
 
 Q. That may be. I do, and I am aware of it, because I understand 
 you to say that you are short of running-equipments on the river. But 
 suppose you had boats enough on the river during a given season to do 
 all the transportation that was to be done in that season, would not 
 competition reduce prices just as far if the season of navigation was 
 eight months long as if it was ten months long? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 523 
 
 A. I think some river-man would be more competent to give that in- 
 formation. 
 
 Q. But is not that a general commercial question ? Do you need any 
 special knowledge of the river to know how that is 1 If a given amount 
 of service is to be performed, and there are people enough to perform 
 it, competing with each other, does not competition do its whole work 
 whether the period within which it is to be done is one hundred days or 
 ninety days ? 
 
 A. I would still say that the facts are, that the steamboat men are 
 of course looking at the amount of freight that is to be moved on the 
 river, and also to the amount of transportation that is to move it, and 
 prices are governed by the limited period that there is in which to do 
 that business. I do not see how I could change that. 
 
 Q. I have no doubt in that aspect it is so, but I was seeking by my 
 question to divide, if I could, the effects of difficulties in navigatiou 
 from the effects of the shortness of boats with which to move com- 
 modities. They are very separable things. I was seeking to point out 
 the distinction between the two. I will not press it. 
 
 Examination of Mr. Thomas Sherlock. 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Mr. Sherlock, we desire to obtain the cost of transportation as 
 far as we can along the whole line of river from Pittsburgh to New Orleans, 
 and the fluctuations of cost and causes of the fluctuations. I understand 
 that you deal in steamboats chiefly, and not in barges and floats. 
 What is the charge per ton for ordinary number four — heavy freight — 
 from Pittsburgh to Louisville or Cincinnati ? 
 
 Answer. The general charge from Pittsburgh to Louisville and Cincin- 
 nati is from three to four dollars per ton on fourth-class freight, or say 
 from two and a half to four dollars. 
 
 Q. Give the distance, if you please. x 
 
 A. It is about six hundred and fifty miles from Pittsburgh to Louis- 
 ville, and about five hundred miles from here (Cincinnati) to Pitts- 
 burgh. 
 
 Q. What class of merchandise or products are covered by this trans- 
 portation rate of from $2.50 to $4 ? 
 
 A. It will cover almost everything that is carried on the river ; light 
 freight, heavy freight, rolling freight, and sack freight ; everything. 
 We do not discriminate on the river as railroads do, from first, second, 
 to third and fourth class, except where we connect with railroad 
 lines and are governed by their rules. 
 
 Q. What is the freight from Louisville to New Orleans? 
 
 A. It is generally about the same as it is from here to New Orleans. 
 
 Q. What is it from Louisville to New Orleans ? 
 
 A. Just now the river has commenced rising, that is, within a few 
 days. We have what we call a very good river here now. There is 
 probably 16 feet of water between here and Louisville ; probably 12 
 feet all the way out of the Ohio Eiver. Freights now are from seven to 
 nine dollars per ton to New Orleans from here. The distance is one 
 thousand five hundred and fifty miles. 
 
 Q. What is freight from Pittsburgh to New Orleans % 
 
 A. It would probably be $2 a ton more than that. 
 
 Q. Making it $9 per ton ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir; from nine to eleven dollars. 
 
 Q. The distance is two thousand miles? 
 
^24 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. These prices are now the asking prices. Prices will be 
 still lower probably in a very few days, as soon as the yellow fever gets 
 out, so that boats are willing to leave here and go down the river, it 
 will reduce the rates probably from one to two dollars a ton from tnese 
 prices. 
 
 Q. Where do you take on this transportation I 
 
 A. At Cincinnati. 
 
 Q. I mean what is your habit as to stopping for transportation at any 
 point? 
 
 A. We stop everywhere as long as we can get a pound of freight, and 
 as long as there is water to carry it and capacity in the boat. 
 
 Q. Is there any limit as to the quantity for which you will npt stop? 
 About how much would be the lowest a boat would stop for % 
 
 A. That depends very much on the size of the boat. We stop be- 
 tween here and Louisville for a dollar. That is outside of the regular 
 landings. We have fifteen regular landings between here and Louis- 
 ville, at which we always stop. In the New Orleans trade a heavy boat 
 thinks that if she does not get $10 worth at a landing she is losing money, 
 although they very often stop without getting anything. 
 
 Q. Do you carry heavy articles like pig-iron on the steamboats ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir ; we carry anything that we can haul anywhere. 
 
 Q. To what extent is pig-iron and heavy articles carried on the steam- 
 boats ? 
 
 A. Between here and Louisville there is a good deal of it carried. 
 There is a good, deal comes up the river. We bring a good deal of Ten- 
 nessee pig-iron from Louisville here. 
 
 Q. Do you carry iron ore ? 
 
 A. Very littlet Sometimes some comes in by the Louisville and Nash- 
 ville Koad which we bring here, and sometimes out of the Tennessee 
 River by steamboat, but not a great deal of it. I do not know whether 
 you understand, but iron ore is a very costly thing to handle, because 
 it is in small pieces and takes a good deal of labor to handle it, and 
 labor is one of the great elements of cost with us. 
 
 Q. Tour carrying trade, then, is the general productions of the coun- 
 try, farming and manufacturing? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; whisky, flour, pork, sugar, molasses, all the manufac- 
 tured articles of this country. 
 
 Q. To what extent do railroads compete with you for this carrying- 
 trade from Pittsburgh through ? 
 
 A. I have not been interested in the trade above Cincinnati for a good 
 many years. My business is all from Cincinnati down to Louisville 
 and New Orleans. 
 
 Q. To what extent do the railroads compete with you in your busi- 
 ness from here to Louisville ? 
 
 A. They compete with us very seriously. They divide the business 
 with us. 
 
 Q. Do they divide the freightage equally ? 
 
 A. No ; I think not. I think we carry more freight than either of the 
 railroads, and probably more together. 
 
 Q. How about the passenger traffic ? 
 
 A. I think we carry as many passengers on the boats, as we are run- 
 ning them now, as either of the roads do ; not as both, but as either. 
 
 Q. What is your charge between here and Louisville for passeugers 1 
 
 A. We charge $3.50, which includes a state-room and the dinner, 
 -supper, and whatever meal they take on the boat. 
 
 Q. What does the railroad charge % 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 525* 
 
 A. The same price. 
 
 Q. "Without supper of course ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. And without any sleeping-car ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. The distance is how much by water ? 
 
 A. One hundred and forty-two miles is the post-office route by water. 
 One hundred and fifty miles we call it. 
 
 Q. How much by rail ? 
 
 A. I think by the short line it is one hundred and ten miles, and on 
 this side of the river one hundred and twenty-seven miles. 
 
 Q. Is the transportation business on the river on boats increasing or 
 diminishing ? I mean on the steamboats. 
 
 A. That depends altogether upon our crops. I think the transporta- 
 tion business of the river has not fallen off in the last two or three years. 
 I think it is rather increasing ; but I think it is the gradual increase of 
 the country. I think the railroads are taking their fair share all the time,. 
 and the steamboats probably are getting their fair share of freight. 
 Now the rates of freight from here to New Orleans vary very widely 
 indeed. The rate of freight on Friday last by rail from here to New 
 Orleans, we connecting with the rail at Louisville — the Louisville and 
 Nashville Road and their connections — was 78 cents per hundred 
 pounds on bacon. The asking rate of freight by steamboats here was 
 40 cents per hundred pounds at the same time. But during low water 
 steamboats could not carry the freight at all. They could not carry 
 such an article as bacon. It took too long. They could not get out of 
 the river in fact, even the very lightest kind of boats. There is nearly 
 always more water between here and Louisville than there is above Cin- 
 cinnati or below Louisville in the Ohio River there ; always is in a low 
 stage of water. 
 
 Q. Is there any increase of freight in the railroads during low water ? 
 
 A. Yes. The railroads carry nearly all the freight destined for the- 
 south. 
 
 Q. What was the price during low water when you could not run i 
 
 A. I think the highest rate they got on fourth-class freight was 82: 
 cents from here. 
 
 Q. How much additional was that to the price before ? 
 
 A. The price last Friday was 78 cents. The price when steamboating 
 fairly opens will probably by rail sink to 50 cents. 
 
 Q. What did you say was the highest price ? 
 
 A. Eighty-two cents. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. What had it been before the water fell ? 
 
 A. I know of shipments at 55 cents. In order to carry freights they 
 must compete with the river. They have the advantage of insurance,, 
 which from here to New Orleans is 1 per cent, by river. The shipper 
 shipping his property by river has that additional cost to pay over the 
 freight if he ships by steam, which gives the railroad a higher rate- 
 They can charge a higher rate and yet be in the market with the steam- 
 boat men. 
 
526 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. You tell us you prorate with railroads. Upon what basis do you 
 prorate ; how many miles of river for how many miles of road ? 
 
 A. I think our route from here to Louisville is called one hundred and 
 twenty-two miles, prorating. We insure that property ; we cover it by 
 insurance ourselves. The bulk of what we now carry is destined for the 
 interior of Alabama and Georgia, running over the Louisville and Nash- 
 ville Eoad and over their connections. It is shipped here in Cincinnati, 
 and the through rate is fixed here; the same by the Ohio and Missis- 
 sippi Eoad, running to Louisville, and by what is called the Short-line 
 Eoad, on the other side of the river, and our line of boats. The rate is 
 the same by all lines, but in order to put ourselves on the same footing 
 with the railroads, we insure that property, and make ourselves liable 
 in case it is lost. 
 
 Q. Then you are allowed for one hundred and twenty-two miles of the 
 whole distance f 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. While the real distance carried by you is about one hundred and 
 forty miles ? 
 A. Yes, sir ; we call it that. 
 
 Q. To what extent do the Louisville Canal and the falls at Louisville 
 obstruct the navigation of the Ohio Eiver ? I mean in the time and 
 cost of getting through the canal, &c. 
 
 A. When the river is up so that boats can cross the falls there is no 
 obstruction at all. When the river is down so that they cannot cross 
 the falls, or when it is so high that they cannot get under the bridge 
 down there, they must go through the canal. The charge for canal-tolls 
 is 50 cents per ton, ship- carpenters' measurement, whether the boat has 
 any cargo on board or not. 
 
 Q. How much is that for a steamboat of the ordinary capacity; or, in 
 other words, what is the tonnage of your ordinary steamboats ? 
 A. Seven hundred tons. That would be $350. 
 Q. Is that for going one way ¥ 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you pay that in money at each trip ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that has been the rate for some eight or ten years. We 
 have one boat whose canal-tolls down and back are $984. To make a 
 trip from here to New Orleans and back we pay $984 canal-tolls. 
 
 Q. What additional cost does that obstruction make in a ton of 
 freight passing up or down 1 I mean on an average. As a matter of 
 course, sometimes the boats are empty and sometimes full. 
 
 A. If a boat is full and laden — most of our boa ts carry a great deal more 
 than they can measure — a boat measuring 700 tons carries 1,200 tons, 
 but she pays on the 700 measurement. If she goes through with 1,200 
 tons it reduces it, say, to 30 cents a ton on the freight itself, while if she 
 goes through the canal measuring 700 tons with but 350 tons of freight 
 it makes a charge of $1 per ton on freight. 
 Q. I wish to get the average. 
 
 A. I should put the average going and coming for our boats for the 
 last year or two— coming up with very light freight— at 65 cents per 
 ton on the cargo carried. 
 Q. Does that apply to all barges and all boats of every kind ? 
 A. O, yes. 
 
 Q. Including coal-boats ? 
 
 A. No, sir; they hare a different rate on coal-boats. I do not know 
 ■what that is. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 527 
 
 Q. But that is the charge on all steamboats going through ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 Q. If the steamboat has other boats than coal-boats in tow, does the 
 50 cents per ton apply to the tow or only to the steamboat ? 
 A. Only to the steamboat. There is a different rate for all boats. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. Yon say you do not know that rate ? 
 A. No, sir ; I have not been in the towing trade at all. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. How are the relative freights on the roads and on the river 1 ? Are 
 they gaining or losing in favor of the roads as against the boats? 
 
 A. In the ordinary stages of water I should think four-fifths, and 
 probably a larger proportion than that of all the freights carried from 
 Cincinnati and Louisville and destined for any place along the Missis- 
 sippi Valley are carried by steamboats. It has been spoken of for some 
 time. If we had 6 feet of water in the Ohio Biver at all seasons of the 
 year, freight during good stages of water would be lower than it ever 
 has been, because we would only be compelled to have one class of 
 boats. Now we must have a class of boats for low water and a class of 
 boats for medium water, &c. The low-water boats are of very little 
 account to us when there is 10 or .12 feet of water in the river. They 
 cannot compete with the larger boats at all. 
 
 Q. "What are the names of these competing roads running south from 
 here or Louisville ? 
 
 A. I am talkingof the Ohio and Mississippi Eoad from here to Louis- 
 ville, and the Short-line Boad from here to Louisville. After we get 
 there we have but one road to run over ; the Louisville and Nashville 
 Boad controls the whole southern system. 
 
 By Mr. Dayis : 
 
 Q. Who is that in control of? 
 
 A. Thomas J. Martin, of Louisville, is the acting president. All the 
 freight destined for the South here during low water goes over the Lou- 
 isville and Nashville Eoad when the river gets so that it cannot be car- 
 ried by it. That is the reason that every once in a while we have a 
 block, as we call it, which lasts probably a week or ten days, when they 
 cannot carry any freight at all, and cannot do anything. It is a single- 
 track road. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling- : 
 
 Q. When you spoke of stopping for a dollar, you meant that the boat 
 will stop for anything which will pay a dollar after it is put on ? 
 
 A. Senator, a boat will stop for anything for which she has capacity 
 to do any business for, unless she is full, whenever she is hailed. 
 
 Q. But when you spea*k of " paying a dollar," you mean she will stop 
 to take on anything which will pay a dollar freight after it is taken on? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; or a passenger who will pay a dollar. Now, in what we 
 call a New Orleans boat, if you go down on the Mississippi Biver, the 
 lowest charge for which they will stop is, I think, $5. 
 
 Q. And that charge is satisfied if something is put on which pays $5 
 freight after it is put on? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
528 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Examination of William E. Mebkill, major and brevet colonel, 
 United States Engineers. 
 By the Chairman: 
 Q. You are engaged in the surveys and improvements of the Ohio and 
 
 Kanawha Eivers "I 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I have charge of both rivers. 
 
 Q. Be good enough to give the committee any information which you 
 have as to the character of these improvements, their cost, and what 
 is necessary to make navigation such as is required 1 _ 
 
 A I only took charge of the Kanawha Biver this spring, and the ap-, 
 propriation was very small. It was $25,000. It was the first appropri- 
 ation which the Government has made, so that nothing has been done 
 by the Government previously on the Kanawha. The river is under the 
 control of the Kanawha board, which is a State organization. I think 
 it is not a company expecting to make money out of the institution, 
 but in some way it is controlled by the State, and many of the officers 
 are exofficio. I don't know exactly how it stands. They own two dredg- 
 ing boats, and hitherto have limited their work on the river to trying to 
 improve the natural channel by dredging through the shoals, making 
 Barrow chutes, so that boats can go through in low water. When this 
 work was assigned to me this spring I consulted with the board to know 
 what had best be done. I wanted of course to make my work fit in 
 with theirs. They said they were doing all the necessary work by 
 dredging, and they should prefer we would build riprap dams and dikes 
 and remove some rocks out of the river. I have governed my work ac- 
 cordingly. I suggested to them that I thought it would be advan- 
 tageous not to spend much money in these temporary improvements, but 
 to strike at once for a radical improvement, and, therefore, I proposed 
 holding this $25,000, provided the Government authorities would per 
 mit it, until more money was appropriated for the river, and then to 
 strike at once for building a lock and dam, and determine in advance 
 that we would spend no money on anything but a radical improvement 
 by slack-water. They, however, consulted with the persons most in in- 
 terest, and they said that there was such a pressing demand for some 
 temporary alleviation now, that they preferred we should spend the 
 money as we are now doing. 
 
 This profile will show the state of the river, the elevation from the 
 mouth up to the Great Falls, and of course it is a very simple thing by 
 comparison to decide, in case a slack-water system is desired, how many 
 locks and dams would be required of any given height. 
 
 Whatever radical improvement we have on the Kanawha should be 
 similar to what we have on the Ohio. 
 
 If you wish me to take up the general subject of the radical improve- 
 ment of these two rivers, I might as well discuss the Ohio alone, because 
 the Kanawha improvement would be the same. The navigation that 
 we want to benefit the Kanawha is precisely the same that we wish to 
 benefit the Ohio, the conditions only varying with the magnitude of the 
 rivers. 
 
 I will therefore pass to the discussion of the Ohio Biver. As you 
 are aware, this matter has been discussed a great deal, and a great 
 number of plans taken up and analyzed by thy predecessor, Mr. Milner 
 Roberts, a United States civil engineer, who had charge of the river. 
 A convention was held here about two years ago by the parties inter- 
 ested in the navigation of the Ohio, and it was, after a pretty general 
 discussion, thought best to organize what may be called a standing 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 529 
 
 convention to discuss the subject, and the convention to consist of five 
 delegates from each State having waters which were tributary to the 
 Ohio. There are seven such States, and there were thirty -five delegates 
 appointed. These delegates met from time to time, and I have always, 
 with one exception, met with them. The whole subject has been pretty 
 thoroughly discussed in that convention. 
 
 Every possible plan, and I may say many impossible plans, have 
 been discussed. The last meeting of the convention was held about a 
 month ago in Louisville. The thing now has settled down to a definite" 
 opinion, and the convention, and I think the Engineer Department, and 
 I know myself, all agree that there is but one plan which is at all feasi- 
 ble. There are only two possible plans that could give the required 
 amount of water. The radical improvement would demand, as Mr. 
 Sherlock said, not less than six feet, and possibly seven feet. There 
 are but two possible ways of getting that. I will mention a third, 
 however, incidentally, and even a fourth. 
 
 People have thought that they could get water from Lake Erie ; but 
 the Ohio River is higher than Lake Erie, above Parkersburgh, and be- 
 low Parkersburgh it would be impossible to do auything. The supply 
 would have to be by a through cut, and that through a ridge of not less 
 than 500 feet high, and fully a hundred miles wide, which would have 
 to be cut through, of course, to that depth. It could only be done by a 
 tunnel at least one hundred and fifty miles long. But suppose we 
 could have that tunnel? Water will not run in a cut unless it has some 
 slope, and in a narrow channel the slope could not well be less than 2 
 feet to the mile. You might call the distance two hundred miles. It is 
 certainly not less than that from any point which can be considered, 
 and you could not give less of a slope to this channel, to make any kind 
 of a supply of water, than 2 feet to the mile. The upper end would re- 
 quire to be at least 400 feet higher than the lower part. Lake Erie is 
 565 feet above the ocean, and consequently would only supply a point 
 two hundred miles distant that was 160 feet above the ocean, and as 
 the river at Cairo is 275 feet above the ocean it is manifest that no 
 point in the Ohio could be reached by that method. Knowing this im- 
 possibility, it was proposed to get the water by pumping into Lake 
 Chautauque. It is only eight or nine miles from Lake Erie to the west- 
 ern extremity of this lake. It is in the southwestern corner of New 
 York, but it is about 750 feet above Lake Erie, and the ridge which 
 forms the water-shed between it and Lake Erie is probably 50 feet 
 higher. There would be an elevation of not less than 800 feet to 
 which water would have to be lifted, and of course by several lifts. 
 Although it was a very wild plan, nevertheless it was seriously brought 
 up, and I made calculations upon it. I took the expense of pumping 
 the water here in Cincinnati, as the pumps are running to their full 
 capacity, and only stop for repairs, being a fair criterion, and I found 
 that you could raise four hundred and fifty gallons up to the reservoir, 
 an average lift of 160 feet, for one cent. Of course, that was the annual 
 cost, exclusive of any expense of distribution, which I did not take into 
 account. On that basis, which I thought was sufficiently low, and tak- 
 ing the cost of these works as a standard, and multiplying the lift by 
 five, assuming this lift to be 160 feet, and the whole lift 800, that hav- 
 ing five lifts, I found it would take $125,000,000 a year to lift the 
 amount of water required to supply 6 feet of water in the Ohio Eiver, 
 at Wheeling, taking the estimates of Mr. Ellett made years ago. 
 
 I found that the first cost of the buildings and machinery would be 
 about $625,000,000, making for the first year $800,000,000. I thought 
 34 T S 
 
530 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 that was sufficient to prove the impossibility of such a scheme, but it 
 seems somebody found a pump claiming to do better. I estimated on 
 that basis which may be considered the maximum possible, ami even 
 then, on that, I could not give a less annual expense than $4,uuu,uuu, 
 and the first cost of $45,000,000. That stopped that plan of course. 
 
 The third possible plan is the plan of reservoirs suggested by Mr. 
 Ellett. That plan was discussed by Mr. Eoberts quite thoroughly in 
 his report. He was very familiar with the country around the bead- 
 ' waters of all the tributaries of the Alleghany, the Monongahela, and 
 pretty nearly every stream emptying into it. He was personally familiar 
 with 'them from his surveys in that country for many years in canals 
 and railroads. He said it was impossible to establish six lakes of the 
 kind Mr. Ellett said was necessary. 
 
 He proposed finding where there was but a small slope and a long 
 valley, and building dams not less than 100 feet high. He expected to 
 use the whole of the water. He called the average depth 50 feet, run- 
 ning up, of course, to nothing. Mr. Eoberts showed to me conclusively 
 that it was not possible to find six localities for such lakes, and he did 
 not believe it was possible to find localities for smaller lakes, to have a 
 greater number of them. 
 
 But besides that, you could not under any circumstances expect to get 
 a proper supply of water unless you had dams at least one-half that 
 height — 50 feet. To build a dam 50 feet high in a running stream is 
 excessively difficult. Eeservoirs even built perfectly dry, where you can 
 watch every stone, sometimes burst, and even when you select your 
 ground for the very purpose it is difficult to prevent water under such 
 a heavy pressure of 50 feet — a pressure of about twenty -five pounds to 
 the square inch or one hundred and forty-four times that to the square 
 foot — it is almost impossible to prevent water at least getting around 
 the sides even if not going through the dam. Besides, with the smaller 
 reservoirs, you would have to have several on one stream, and if one of 
 them were to break, which might happen very easily because it would 
 be very difficult to make a waste-weir which would be adequate for 
 every contingency, the result would be very disastrous. Take for in- 
 stance the case of a water-spout bursting in the mountains. If one of 
 these dams were carried away by that, every other one on that stream 
 would be carried away, and you could hardly have less than a mass of 
 water a hundred feet high sweeping down and destroying everything in 
 the whole valley, and not within manageable reach until down here. If 
 it broke in floods it would desolate the whole valley, and it would be 
 hard to tell where it would stop. 
 
 Mr. Ellett's basis for calculating the expense of such a work was on the 
 Anthony's Creek reservoir on the Kanawha, in an exceptionally favorable 
 site, and yet it has never been built. It is the Anthony's Greek reser- 
 voir proposed for filling the summit-level of the James Eiver and 
 Kanawha Canal. I think the expense by reservoirs is certainly not less 
 after all than the entire cost for the slack-watering of the Ohio River, 
 that is, assuming that the six big lakes could not be built. 
 
 And that reduces us down to the only possible plan that is left, of 
 slack-water. I think the reservoir plan is impracticable and excessively 
 dangerous, and it would be very difficult also to manage. You would 
 have to have telegraph lines and the utmost degree of watchfulness, 
 and thorough knowledge of the river, to be able to regulate the supply. 
 Beside that, all the railroads running up these valleys would certainly 
 jump up 100 feet. It would change miles and miles of railroad, and 
 would also destroy manufactories, farms, wells, and navigation 'also. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 531 
 
 If the dams would always stay full, it would be possible to get some 
 kind of chute or lock, or something, for navigation. But supposing the 
 water were 20 feet below the level, there would be no way of getting 
 lumber. These are some of the objections. 
 
 That reduces us to slack-water. The great advantages of the slack- 
 water plan are that it is simple ; its expense can be calculated with as 
 much accuracy as any work in water can be, and I think I ought to 
 state here that any work in water is subject to contingencies which can- 
 not be foreseen, and therefore exact estimates are simply impossible. A 
 bed of a stream is itself your reservoir, and it gives all the water you 
 need, and not one drop more. You simply retaiu what is needed for 
 navigation. The stream will always supply the lockage, and even if it 
 should not run over the dam, still you will have plenty of navigation in 
 the pools. It is easily built ; there are no excessive dangers, and it is 
 at present in use on the Monougahela River, where it fully meets the 
 wants of the very class of navigation which demands the improvement; 
 of the Ohio, and that is the coal-trade. 
 
 There is but one thing, however, to be said about applying it to the 
 Ohio. The coal-trade of Pittsburgh is a unit in demanding that noth- 
 ing shall be put. on the Ohio that will in any way interfere with the full 
 and free use of the stream, as they have it now when the water is high. 
 They claim that it is impossible for them to stop at every lock, break 
 tows, and take them through and re-form them. My own experience 
 with coal-tows makes me think the objection is a good one. I came down 
 from Pittsburgh to Cincinnati on a coal-tow on purpose to see how they 
 got along. To that objection we reply that it is perfectly feasible to 
 make an opening 200 feet wide or more, if necessary, although I think 
 200 would be enough in one of these dams, cutting it down 4 or 5 feet, so 
 as to take off the lift almost entirely. Have this chute opened and shut 
 by a hydraulic gate, manageable by one man, the force being the force 
 of the water always to work it, and through which these boats can pass 
 with just as much safety and with as little detention as they can in the 
 open river. In returning they return empty, and there is no difficulty 
 at all in their breaking up their tows, because they are light and are not 
 so tightly held together, and can re-form their tows. 
 
 It would save time, because they now come down loaded on a rise, 
 and they go back empty ; but a boat draws about 3 feet, and very often 
 the rise, before they can get back to Pittsburgh, is altogether gone, and 
 the river is dead low. They sometimes have to lie by for months and 
 months, scattered along the river, until the next rise takes them back 
 to their harbor. 
 
 But this movable hydraulic gate, oh which the whole thing hinges, 
 is an experiment. Means for accomplishingthispurposein a little differ- 
 ent way has been used on a small scale in various rivers in Prance, Ger- 
 many, this country, and the East Indies, but nothing quite analogous to 
 what we have to build for the Ohio. The matter has been under the 
 charge of a board of engineers, consisting of General Weitzel and my- 
 self, for a long time. We sent in a preliminary report to the last Con- 
 gress, which unfortunately was not published, and no action was taken. 
 In that report we stated our positive belief that it was perfectly feasible 
 to make such a hydraulic gate, but before committing ourselves to the 
 great cost of applying the slack- water system with this hydraulic gate 
 to theOhio, we desired to make an experiment on a smaller scale to some 
 other stream. For this purpose the president of the Monongahela Nav- 
 igation Company offered us the use of the lowest dam on the Mononga- 
 
532 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 hela. They are exceedingly interested in the success of the experiment 
 
 for their own local reasons. nnti^prl af 
 
 Tbe harbor of Pittsburgh is a natural pool, such as you noticeo at 
 Charleston, the bar below there making a natural pool for about ten 
 miles. There is such a natural pool at Pittsburgh, but it is altogether 
 insufficient to accommodate the number of coal boats and barges which 
 lie there loaded and waiting for a rise. The consequence is, that they 
 are compelled to keep a large number of their boats and barges in the 
 artificial pool of the Monongahela above dam No. 1. When the rise 
 comes, especially a small rise, it passes by so rapidly that they find it 
 simply impossible to get their boats and barges out in time to take ad- 
 vantage of this rise, and, consequently, they cannot get to market when 
 they are all ready otherwise. Therefore, the company proposed trying 
 this experiment on the dam No. 1. If this chute, with the hydraulic 
 gate, will answer there, it will relieve them immensely, and it will re- 
 lieve the harbor of Pittsburgh immensely, because boats will then be 
 able to stay up the Monongahela in the pools and come down as rapidly 
 as necessary, in case of a rise, without any delay. But now, between 
 boats coming up and coming down, a great many of them miss the rise 
 altogether and cannot get down. The company, therefore, are very 
 willing to have this experiment tried in their dam No. 1, and they have 
 officially offered to pay half the cost thereof. We estimated that the 
 cost would be $80,000, and therefore asked for an appropriation of 
 $40,000, but unfortunately our report did not go to Congress, and no ac- 
 tion was taken thereon. A report is, however, very nearly ready for this 
 present Congress, in which we go into exact detail, giving exact plans 
 and estimates, and again ask permission to try this on the Mononga- 
 hela. I have no doubt but what it will be a perfect success ; and if not 
 a perfect success on the exact plan we recommend, there are other 
 plans that will accomplish the object. But before we commit ourselves 
 to the radical improvement of the Kanawha or the Ohio we think it is 
 essential that this thing should be tried on a working scale on some smaller 
 stream ; and that is the condition in which the radical improvement of 
 these two rivers now stands. 
 
 I do not know whether it came to your ears or not, but there is some 
 opposition in the Kanawha to any slack-water navigation on that stream. 
 They do not, however, know this possibility ; and when they know that 
 they can go down-stream with their coal-tows with just as much ease as 
 if the river were entirely open, and at the same time be able to go up- 
 stream at all seasons, thus making a continuous navigation the year 
 round, I think they will be unanimous in demanding it. There will not 
 be a word of opposition except some man who does not believe we can 
 do it. But if we show that we can do it, there will be no dissenting 
 opinion. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What is your estimate of the expense of the improvement of the 
 Kanawha and the Ohio in the way you suggest ? 
 
 A. On the Kanawha I have not made a detailed estimate : I have 
 had the river such a short time. The great difficulty in the Kanawha 
 is the difficulty of foundation. The rock, as far as I know, outcrops in 
 the bottom of the river in a very few places, and that adds very much 
 to the expense, and will probably limit the height. But I -should iud«'e 
 it would be safe to say $300,000 to a dam, chute, and one lock which 
 would probably supply the up-stream navigation ; the chute itself sup- 
 plying the downstream. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 533 
 
 In all schemes for the James Eiver and Kanawha Caual, of course r 
 they look to the improvement of the Kanawha Eiver, and all of them' 
 have recommended that above the mouth of Paint Creek there should 
 be locks. The fall of the river for the upper sixteen miles averages 
 nearly 3 feet to the mile, a slope altogether beyond our powers of 
 remedy in any other way. Below that they have recommended open 
 navigation at an estimated cost of about $2,000,000 for the whole. 
 
 By Mr. CONKLING : 
 
 Q. How many locks would that make on the Kanawha? 
 
 A. Four from Paint Creek up to where it connects with the canal — that 
 is, to the falls ; arid from there down it depends on the height we give 
 the locks. The height at Paint Creek is 68 feet. If you give a 10-foot 
 rise, that takes seven locks. 
 
 Q. In all ? 
 
 A. From there down. I do not know where the locks above this 
 connect with the canal. The foot of the Great Falls is 108 feet above 
 the mouth of the Kanawha. 
 
 Q. From the canal to the mouth of the Kanawha how many locks are 
 there ? 
 
 A. I am not familiar with the James Eiver and Kanawha Canal 
 at all, and I do not know how they connect up here. I simply know 
 that they estimate for four. 
 
 Q. Then how many from the falls of the Kanawha to the mouth of 
 the river? 
 
 A. From the foot of the falls it would require eleven if they are 10- 
 foot rise. 
 
 Q. And from the top of the falls? 
 
 A. From the top of the falls it would require 13J feet exactly, with a 
 10-foot rise ; but of course you could apportion it to have either 10 or 11 
 feet. 
 
 Q. What would be the expense per lock ? 
 
 A. The expense per lock and dam it is difficult to tell. They estimate 
 it at $212,000, and they had opportunities for investigation which I 
 have not. I presume you might take their estimate as accurate. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. The estimate of the cost of the improvement of the Ohio Eiver ac- 
 cording to the plan ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you gone over these estimates to your satisfaction ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. That estimate is in the rough, because it is impossible 
 to give anything like a detailed estimate. You have to look at every- 
 thing before thjtf could be done. This is Mr. Eoberts's estimate of the 
 whole river fro "Pittsburgh to Cairo, with sixty-six locks of 6-foot rise. 
 
 It is very desirable in the Ohio to have as little rise as possible, so 
 that the dams can be submerged in high floods, and then they will not 
 often even have to go through the chutes. In very high floods they 
 would be altogether wiped out. You would see nothing. They could 
 go straight on. Therefore the lift is put at only 6 feet. Fifty-one locks 
 from Pittsburgh to Louisville, and fifteen from Louisville to Cairo. 
 From Point Pleasant to Louisville there would be twenty, and fifteen 
 down from Louisville to Cairo makes thirty-five. From Pittsburgh to 
 Cairo Mr. Eoberts puts it at about $22,000,000. I think it would be 
 safe to put it at $25,000,000, because in the lower river there is to be 
 great difficulty. There is a vast amount of moving sand, and it is not 
 known whether that system would work there at all. 
 
534 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 The experience on the Ganges in Asia shows invariably the river in 
 one or two seasons fills up even with the top of the dams, and as tneir 
 dams are used for irrigating purposes they have under end-sluices with 
 openings in the bottom, and they make a whirlpool and draw out the 
 sand at each end, and also have one set in the middle. But they all lay 
 it down as a principle that their experience shows positively that the 
 dams are bound to fill up even with the top with sand. 
 
 Of course the same condition would produce the same results on the 
 Ohio below at Louisville. The river is altogether different in its charac- 
 ter there from what it is above, but I believe, by this plan of a chute 
 and by closing navigation possibly for a week or two in dead low water, 
 and by dpening these freshet-chutes, commencing at the lowest lock and 
 draining the lowest pool, and then draining the second pool through the 
 first and the third through the second, and so on in succession, that you 
 could clear a navigable channel under all circumstances. 
 
 Still, there is a contingency. That is a question which could only be 
 solved by actual trial. We can do a great deal on the lower Ohio by 
 controlling the channel in guiding the water and putting it in a nar- 
 rower space. That is what we are now working at. We have not been 
 able to do much on account of the demand for work in the upper river 
 and at other points. I think we can possibly secure four feet at low water 
 without any dams across the stream, by merely dikes and controlling the 
 current; but the great difficulty of that is it is quite possible that the 
 bars will move and form ahead of us, and we would have to then extend 
 the dikes. That may stop us, or it may ultimately compel their extension 
 from one shoal to the next in the course of many years. Still, that is 
 a very cheap method of improving, and a very efficient one, if it is prop- 
 erly kept up. The difficulty has been that much of the work was done 
 many years ago, and altogether abandoned. The dams are very much 
 injured. They are still to be found, though they have sunk in the sand, 
 and the inhabitants have absolutely taken the stone off in many cases 
 to build the foundations of their houses. There is nobody to watch 
 them and nobody to stop them. But a work abandoned in that way 
 would of course soon go to ruin, when a very little repair would have 
 kept it up. 
 
 Q. Have you given an estimate of the cost of the improvement in 
 the Ohio, from the mouth of the Kanawha? 
 
 A. From there to Cairo it would be about $15,000,000, I should say. 
 The figures are $12,000,000, but I think it would not be safe to put it at 
 less than $15,000,000. Of course these estimates are in the rough. 
 Detailed estimates would require sites selected, measurements made, 
 and foundations determined, all of which, of course, is now premature. 
 Even then it ought to commence at Pittsburgh, because, even if this 
 chute did not work, if three locks were put in it woulttielp navigation 
 at that point of the river a great deal. In the first twenty miles the 
 average slope of the Ohio is 17 inches to the mile. That is' unmanage- 
 able. The river is already controlled to the utmost extent that we can 
 do so under the present system. I might make some change, but it 
 would be very costly and not of much benefit. In low water there are 
 only 12 inches at this place 1 was speaking of, about twelve miles below 
 Pittsburgh. It was improved by Major Sanders in 1838. 
 
 Q. What is the depth at dead low water from the mouth of the Ka- 
 nawha down! 
 
 A. It varies on the different bars and from year to year. When I 
 went up to meet the commissioners at Charleston, I went on a boat 
 drawing 30 inches, and was stuck ten miles above the city here for four 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 535 
 
 hours, and only got away by sparring. It is similar to pulling a small 
 boat over by a pole. They have these same poles on steamboats. Of 
 course they are much larger. Yon have seen them hanging in front of 
 the steamers. They are worked by steam. The principle is essentially 
 the same as taking a small boat and poling it over a shallow place. 
 
 By Mr. Datis : 
 
 Q. Did you say 30 inches? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and the reports gave down the lower river only two feet 
 at some points. Of course there is plenty of water in the pools, but on 
 these bars there is sometimes very little, and you cannot tell which bars 
 are going to be the worst ones. As the river falls the bars do not get 
 any worse; they cut out; sometimes they get much better. I think 
 the bars on the upper river are almost all sand. This bar up here, 
 which bothered us so much, is almost entirely sand. 
 
 Q. Do these bars change much ? 
 
 A. Not in general position, but in detail. I have had two surveys 
 made, and carefully done, and the deep water of one year was a dry bar 
 the next year. Still, I think that is perfectly manageable. I should 
 have taken that bar up this year, but so much money had to go into an 
 iron snag-boat to clear out the obstruction, which was what the river- 
 men demanded most, that I was not able to expend any money in it. 
 
 • Mr. Ellett's report was published by the Smithsonian Institute. The 
 following reports are in the official documents of the Engineer Depart- 
 ment: Executive Document No. 66, Twenty-second Congress, second 
 session, House of Eepresentatives ; Twenty-seventh Congress, third 
 session, No. 50, House of Eepresentatives, War Department; Report 
 on Eeservoirs on Ellett's plan, Thirty-second Congress, first session ; 
 Eeport No. 94, House of Eepresentatives, Thirty-fourth Congress, third 
 session ; House of Eepresentatives, No. 234, Forty-first Congress, third 
 session ; House of Eepresentatives, Executive Document No. 72. 
 
 By Mr. Datis : 
 
 Q. Have you an official record of the time of low water and ice on the 
 river ? 
 
 A. They do not keep any record of ice. I have a record kept here 
 since 1858 of the stage of water every year. 
 
 Q. Upon your plan how much water does it give in the river? 
 
 A. It will give you as much as you please. You can decide yourself, 
 in advance, how much water you require, and the dams can be built 
 accordingly. 
 
 Q. But what are your estimates, I mean ? 
 
 A. Six feet all the way through. But if all the dams are made one 
 foot higher, costing but little more, it would be seven feet, and one foot 
 higher would be eight, and yet they would have no more pressure upon 
 the dams, because each one backs up to the next, and although the 
 lift might only be six feet, yet by raising all the pools it is like making 
 stairs, going a little higher. 
 
 Q. I understand your plan gives from Pittsburgh to Cairo six feet of 
 water all the time ? 
 
 A. Six feet in the shoalest places, which w r ould be just below each 
 dam. That is what we calculate to give, and the radical improvement 
 of the river demands it. You cannot have less. 
 
 By Mr. SHERMAN : 
 Q. If you know anything as to the improvement or work on the Fort 
 Saint Philip Canal, be good enough to state it. 
 
536 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. The Fort Saint Philip Canal is a canal designed to connect the 
 Mississippi Eiver with the deep water of the Gulf with the intention 01 
 avoiding entirely the trouble at the natural mouths of the Mississippi 
 Eiver. Deep water, on the western side of the Mississippi, does not 
 come anywhere near the river, but oh the eastern side the deep water- 
 of the Gulf, at a point about fifty miles above the mouth of the m , s 
 only seven miles distant, and in its vicinity there are a number of islands 
 that would afford a shelter to vessels in storms. 
 
 The plan for making a canal to this deep water is not a new one, as 
 it was suggested and estimated on years ago. I cannot give the exact 
 date, but the estimates at that time were considered so large that the 
 project was abandoned, and an effort was made to improve the mouth 
 of the river on somewhat the same plan that has been m operation for 
 some time past. , ,, „ 
 
 But as commerce is constantly demanding greater depth ot water in 
 the commercial ports, it has now got to such a state that it is impos- 
 sible to secure at the mouth of the Mississippi the water necessary to 
 enable the largest ships, which can, of course, transport commerce the 
 most economically, to come up to New Orleans. I have been informed 
 by Major Howell, who is in charge of the work, that with the best of 
 machinery and the best of care, it is impossible to get more than 
 20 or 21 feet over the bar, and there is no certainty that you can always 
 have that, because accidents will happen either to the dredging-boat 
 or boats attempting to come through this narrow pass, because it really 
 is a narrow canal out in the open sea. It has a width of about 200 feet, 
 and is a long way from the land. Moreover, this method of improve- 
 ment requires continual appropriations, and if Congress should at any 
 time, for any reason, neglect to make an appropriation, the bar will at 
 once resume its normal condition of giving about 14 feet of water, and 
 meanwhile the commerce which was created on the 19 or 20 feet would 
 be practically destroyed. 
 
 In fact, this uncertainty of being able to enter the harbor of New 
 Orleans is a very serious drawback to western commerce, as the ships 
 which can transport that commerce to the greatest advantage, which, of 
 course, are the largest ships, are afraid to go where they may be unable 
 to enter. The Fort Saint Philip Canal, so called because it leaves the 
 Mississippi Eiver not far below Fort Saint Philip, is designed to obviate 
 this matter entirely. The greatest difference of level between the waters 
 of the river and the Gulf, at a point where the canal starts from the 
 river, is only 5 feet, and consequently the maximum lockage would be 
 only 5 feet, which is, of course, comparatively insignificant. 
 
 In accordance with orders from the Chief of Engineers, Major Howell, 
 the officer in charge, made a very thorough survey of the whole plan,, 
 and bored in various places along the proposed route of the canal to 
 ascertain the character of the soil. He came to the conclusion that it 
 was perfectly feasible to make the lock required, giving a depth of 27 
 feet on its miter-sill, and that the soil was so firm that there would be 
 no difficulty in giving the canal such a width and such slopes to its bank 
 that this depth of 27 feet could be maintained in the canal from the lock 
 to the open sea. 
 
 Of course an artificial harbor would have to be constructed at the Gulf 
 end of this canal, somewhat similar, probably, to the outer harbor of the 
 Suez Canal, but that probably would present no difficulty. 
 
 The whole scheme has every appearance of feasibility, and if it suc- 
 ceeds it will bean immense stimulus to the commerce of' the Mississippi 
 as boats can easily reach it. They will save fifty miles of towing up the 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 537 
 
 Mississippi Eiver ; tbey will save heavy pilot-charges, and they will 
 have a harbor into which they can sail without any danger, in almost 
 any storm, and will go there with a perfect certainty that if they load 
 anything less than 27 feet there will be no difficulty whatever in going 
 right to the wharf at New Orleans. Of course, after they pass from the 
 canal iuto the river, sailing-vessels must be towed, as vessels cannot 
 sail up the Mississippi. There is no lack of water in the river, its aver- 
 age depth from New Orleans being 100 feet and over at low water. 
 
 I have been informed that Major Howell's estimate of the cost of the 
 canal is $7,000,000. A board of engineers has been thoroughly examin- 
 ing the plans, and their report will probably be sent in at the next ses- 
 sion of Congress, when all the details will be given. 
 
 Examination of Benjamin Eggleston. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Are you acquainted with the workings pf the Ohio canals ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Please state the length of time you have been acquainted with it, 
 and your means of knowledge. 
 
 A. I have been directly or indirectly acquainted with the canals of this 
 State for thirty years. 
 
 Q. State whether they are increasing or decreasing in business. 
 
 A. They are decreasing in business. 
 
 Q. State your reasons for that belief. 
 
 A. There are two canals in Ohio, one from Portsmouth to Cleveland, 
 three hundred and nine miles long, and one from Cincinnati to Toledo! 
 three hundred and forty-seven miles long. 
 
 Q. State the names of each. 
 
 A. The Portsmouth Canal is called the " Ohio Canal," and this one 
 from here to Toledo the " Ohio and Erie Canal." There is also, however, 
 the " Hocking Canal," running from Columbus down the Hocking 
 Valley to Athens. They are all owned by the State, but have been 
 leased out to lessees, and operated by the lessees under a restriction oi 
 tolls. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. All of them ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that was put in to prevent the railroads from gobbling 
 them up and subsidizing them. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. State the size of these canals, and the tonnage of their boats, il 
 you know. 
 
 A. On the surface of the water they are 40 to 42 feet, and were in- 
 tended to be 4 feet in depth, but they are not quite that. They were 
 built with that intention. The boats are built so as to go through the 
 locks, which are 80 feet long by 14 feet wide. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling- : 
 Q. What is the width of the bottom — the prism of the canal ? 
 A. The bottom was started out to be 30 feet, but it is tilled up, and 
 has uot been kept up to that. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Are they the same size as the original Erie Canal before the en- 
 largement ? 
 
538 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. I do not recollect. I think they were built the same size as the 
 Erie Ganal. 
 
 Q. What is the tonnage of the boats ? 
 
 A. The boats carry 65 tons and draw 3 feet of water. 
 
 Q. Can you give anv reason that you know of for the diminution * 
 
 A. The Ohio Canal, from Cleveland to Portsmouth, three hundred and 
 nine miles, for manv years brought pretty much all the goods that came 
 from New York to Cincinnati, and all the West, through the Erie Canal 
 from Buffalo to Cleveland, in that way. The building of the different 
 railroads kept cutting it off, but finally they got this canal built from 
 here to Toledo. Then the price of transportation on the lake trom 
 Buffalo up to Toledo was no more than it was to Cleveland. This canal 
 was shorter than the other, and this canal became a competitor for the 
 through business both ways, against the Ohio Canal, down to Ports- 
 mouth. It did a very large business until the railroad was built from 
 here to Toledo. In the summer season the railroad would put down its 
 rates from here to Toledo very low ; they would carry wheat as cheap 
 as by canal ; but the moment that it came cold weather, and the fall 
 came in, they would put up their rates. The canal would freeze up, up 
 North, and the rates would go up. The result was that owners of boats 
 would not replenish them. They let them gradually die out. It would 
 not pay them, as they had the railroad to compete with in the summer, 
 and the boats began to decay, and there were no parties here who would 
 fight the railroads from here to New York any more. They would make 
 through rates from here to New York 45 to 50 cents a hundred, and by 
 the lake route, although we could carry to Toledo very cheaply, and 
 from there East, yet the difference in the time of getting the property 
 to New York, and these low through rates, gradually drove the business 
 from the canal. The boats began to decay, and they are building hardly 
 any. I think business last year was just about the same as it was the 
 year before, but there is no through business on either of the canals at 
 all. I do not suppose that there is a ton of freight that starts from 
 Cincinnati and goes to the sea-board by either of the canals during the 
 whole season, but yet there is quite a large local business done. 
 
 Q. Do you know what they charge a mile per ton on the canals ! 
 
 A. You can carry property from here to Toledo by canal at 15 cents a 
 hundred, or $3 a ton. The other canal would charge a trifle more than 
 that, because it is a little longer. They have to pay these lessees a 
 small amount of tolls to keep up the canals. They have no right to in- 
 crease the present rates of toll. The railroads would have had these 
 canals long ago if it had not been for that, but under the act of the leg- 
 islature they cannot increase the tolls ou the canal, but can reduce them 
 as much as they please. They cannot increase them over a certain rate 
 which was fixed back when they were leased, some seven or eight years 
 ago. 
 
 Q. What is the usual rail-freight from here to Toledo ? 
 
 A. In the winter season their charge is about 25 cents a hundred, or 
 about $5 a ton. In the summer season, when we were taking wheat at 
 8 cents a bushel, they wanted to get 9. But rather than miss it they 
 would take it at 8 cents as the canal did. 
 
 The only advantage the canal had over them then was that the caual 
 receipted for quantity, and the railroad company would never do that, 
 and they would steal at the elevators at the other end of the line a little 
 oft every car load, or the car-load would be a little short. 
 
 That was the only argument we could use, on the canal, that we 
 would deliver the same quantity of wheat they delivered to us, and if 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 539 
 
 we did not we would pay for it. The railroad would just deliver the 
 car-load, and would claim, perhaps, that it shook out between the cracks 
 may be three or four bushels to each car. That is a toll that they are 
 getting at almost every place where they have an elevator. They got 
 it in New York ; they got it everywhere. You send a car-load of wheat 
 from hero to New York. They deliver a car-load to you, and it is always 
 a little short. We cannot account for it. They are all sealed or lined, 
 and are all good cars, but the quantity will always be a little short. 
 There is something wrong about it. That is the worst feature of theirs 
 of sending grain by rail. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. How do you account for the extraordinarily low prices given to- 
 day for the transportation of coal from Washington, Ind., here, and 
 of iron from Saint Louis here by rail 1 
 
 A. It is because there is a river. They have to compete with a river. 
 From Washington they do not. I do not look upon 6 cents from Wash- 
 ington as being a very low price. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. It is six mills and ^ of a mill per ton per mile. 
 
 A. I never made the calculation. I know that the charge is 6 cents 
 per bushel. I would not like to see our canals going out of existence. 
 
 Q. Even in the present dilapidated and imperfect condition, you think 
 the canals are still a regulator of the railroads ? 
 
 A. O, yes; we get low freight in the summer, although we do not do 
 much on the canal. But they are afraid of the canal all the time, and 
 it keeps the prices down. 
 
 Examination of Jambs J. Hookeb. 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Question. What is the effect upon the trade of Cincinnati by the im- 
 provement of the Erie Canal and that of the month of the Mississippi, 
 with no additional facilities by water ? 
 
 Answer. In that you include the proposed Chesapeake and Ohio Ca- 
 nal, do you ? 
 
 Q. I do not include any but the two. If there was an outlet from 
 Chicago, by way of the Erie Canal, which there is, and if the mouth of 
 the Mississippi was improved and no additional water-route was giveii 
 by way of the Ohio B.iver, what effect would it have upon your trade 1 
 
 A. I cannot think it would have any serious effect upon our trade 
 here, at least not to cut it off. We are benefited by the improvement 
 of the country around us, though in a mercantile way our trade is con- 
 fined to less territory every year. At the same time it continues to 
 grow. But the completion of the James Biver and Kanawha Canal 
 would be of great benefit to us. I am satisfied that the facilities of the 
 lines of railroads running into Cincinnati at the present time would not 
 be equal for carrying the trade. There are a series of railroads which 
 are not connected with any eastern lines running into Indianapolis and 
 Columbus — the Ben Smith roads, they are styled ; these, I am satisfied, 
 will throw their freight in this direction. -They are not allied to any 
 eastern combinations at all. The result would be that a great deal of 
 territory whose grain now seeks an outlet through Chicago and Toledo, 
 would go through this James Biver and Kanawha Canal. These Ben 
 Smith roads that I have mentioned run from Columbus through Indian- 
 apolis into Northern Iowa, and drain a very large extent of country , 
 
540 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 but with the advantage of cheap river transportation by the Ohio River 
 from Cincinnati, and the James River and Kanawha Canal, they would 
 undoubtedly do an immense business, and I think that line, if built, would 
 result in the cheapening of transportation very much. Not only would 
 freight seek that outlet from Cincinnati, but over all the railroads tap- 
 ping the Ohio River, from Cairo up. Running north and west from 
 Louisville is the New Albany and Chicago Road, also the New Albany 
 and Saint Louis Road, and the Jefferson ville and Indianapolis Road, all 
 of which would bring freight to the Ohio River, to be transported 
 through this canal to the sea-board. 
 
 Q. In your opinion, if the central water-line was built, which is the 
 James River and Kanawha Canal, would it have a tendency to increase 
 your grain and other trade here to any extent 1 
 
 A. Unquestionably it would. Of course it would be impossible to 
 give figures, but I do not know why, if it should be built, Cincinnati 
 should not handle at least ten times as much grain as she now handles, 
 because her grain-trade is now purely local, coming for consumption iu 
 this city and the surrounding country. Then it would become a gen- 
 eral trade like that of Chicago and Toledo. 
 
 Q. Would that water-line be likely to reduce the rail-freight between 
 here and the eastern markets ? 
 
 A. Most certainly it would. Building the Baltimore and Ohio Rail- 
 road has had that effect. It keeps below all other roads all the time. 
 Their rate to tide-water is lower than that of any other road. This 
 Chesapeake and Ohio Road is also doing quite a large business, consid- 
 ering its facilities, to the East. I know provisions are often shipped as 
 far south as Georgia over the Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad. 
 The committee here adjourned. 
 
 Louisville, Ky., 
 Tuesday, October 27, 1873—7 p. m. 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment. 
 Examination of Hon. James Speed. 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Will you state, if you please, the present legal status of the 
 Louisville and Portland Canal Company 1 
 
 Answer. I expect I can give you the information you desire better by 
 presenting to the committee this report, which was made by the canal 
 company. There are two papers in it: one from Mr. Guthrie, the then 
 president, addressed to William D. Gallagher, and one drawn by me, 
 addressed to Joshua F. Speed, president of the canal company. 
 
 Q. Is that a recent paper? 
 
 A. It is dated 18th December, 1871. This paper gives a complete 
 history of the canal. The first charter was by the State of Kentucky on 
 the 12th January, 1825 ; the canal had to be completed within three 
 years. They commenced operations under that, and it was constantly 
 extended from that time until it got into operation in 1831, 1 think. 
 
 Afterwards the receipts from the canal became enormous, and it was 
 fouud to be a tax upon commerce so heavy that the stockholders them- 
 selves thought it wrong, and they applied to the legislature of Ken- 
 tucky, and the legislature of Kentucky passed the act, which is the act 
 of 1842, for the purpose of eventually making the canal free of tolls 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 541 
 
 " The directors are authorized, when the stockholders shall so direct, to 
 sell the stock belonging to individuals to the United States, or to the 
 State of Kentucky, or to the city of Louisville." 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. What is the date of that ? 
 
 A. That is in 1842. The directors under that, as you will see by the 
 previous history, offered it to the United States. The United States 
 then refused to take it. They offered it to the State of Kentucky, and 
 the State of Kentuckyrefused to take it. They offered it to the city of 
 Louisville, and the city of Louisville refused to take it. There was ap- 
 pended to that offer this proviso : " Or further to effect the object of 
 making the canal free, the board of directors, when authorized by the 
 stockholders, shall have the privilege of appropriating the net income 
 arising from the canal to the purchase of stock, instead of making div- 
 idends therewith ; and it is provided that the shares so purchased shall 
 be held in trust by the board for the purposes herein declared, and 
 voted on by them, until, by the operation of the provisions of this act, 
 all the shares standing in the names of other than the Government of 
 the United States shall have been purchased up. When the shares 
 shall be all purchased, the same shall be transferred to the Government 
 of the United States on condition of said Government levying tolls for 
 the use of the canal only sufficient to keep the same in repair, and pay all 
 necessary superintendence, custody, and expenses, and make all neces- 
 sary improvements, so as fully to answer the purposes of its establish- 
 ment." 
 
 Under that provision, when the Government of the United States re- 
 fused to take the canal, and the State of Kentucky would not take it, 
 and the city of Louisville would not take it, the directors went on and 
 purchased up all the stock except five shares, each one holding one 
 share, which they held as the directors of the canal. 
 
 Q. Purchased it up for whom 1 
 
 A. For the Government of the United States, under this act. After 
 that was done, and all purchased, the stock was again offered to the 
 United States, but it was perfectly evident that the canal required en- 
 largement, and that the funds on hand then held by the directors were 
 not sufficient. 
 
 The Government of the United States, instead of taking the canal, 
 passed the resolution of Congress, approved 20th May, 1860. 
 
 However, prior to that, the State of Kentucky, in 1857, passed an act 
 to amend the charter of the Louisville and Portland Canal Company, 
 authorizing the company to construct, with the revenue and on the 
 credit of the corporation, a branch canal sufficient to pass the largest 
 class of steam-vessels navigating the Ohio River, and the same powers 
 are given to construct the branch as were conferred to make the canal. 
 
 Now the thing thus stood in 1857, with these five directors having the 
 canal and holding it in trust for the Government of the United States 
 under a Kentucky charter. The business of the country absolutely de- 
 manded that the canal should be enlarged. They got this act passed 
 through the Kentucky legislature, and then came the doubt whether, 
 as the revenues belonged to the Government of the United States, it 
 was competent for the legislature to appropriate those revenues in that 
 way. 
 
 Congress then, in 1860, after years of application, passed a resolution 
 authorizing the revenues and credit of the company to be used for en- 
 larging the said canal, and to construct a branch canal. So, under the 
 
542 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 act of 1857 and under the resolution of Congress of I860, : ^directors 
 proceeded to enlarge the canal. They used up «>« ^J* *£°* ™J 
 had on hand, and under the authority of the Kentucky legis Jture and 
 under the resolution of Congress they made a mortgage of the revenues 
 of the canal and proceeded to the execution of the work. 
 
 As you will see from the paper of Mr. Guthrie, the Government of 
 thfun'ted States had previously been a stockholder The Government 
 of the United States never paid anything for its stock. It never paid a 
 dollar. It was all paid back by dividends from the canal. 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. How did the Government become a stockholder 1 
 
 A. By subscription under acts of Congress. 
 
 By Mr. ConexinG : 
 
 Q. When? 
 
 A. The first subscription was by an act of Congress approved 13th 
 May, 1826. The Secretary of the Treasury was authorized to subscribe 
 one thousand shares of the capital stock of the Louisville and Portland 
 Canal Company. That subscription was made and the Government 
 became then a stockholder. 
 
 By Mr. SHERMAN : 
 
 Q. Did not the Government pay that ? 
 
 A. No, sir. The Government paid the money, but the money was all 
 paid back to the Government. 
 
 Q. Ee-imbursed 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I mean by that that the whole money was paid back. 
 The United States by the act of Congress approved March 2, 1829, au- 
 thorized a further subscription of stock, not to exceed thirteen hundred 
 and fifty shares. That subscription was also made and paid for, and 
 that was paid back out of the revenues. 
 
 Q. To the Government ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the Government stood then, in 1860, as the owner of the 
 shares thus subscribed for. 
 
 Q. All of which had been paid for by the revenues of the canal ? 
 
 A. All of which had been paid for by the revenues of the canal. I do 
 not recollect, without looking back, how much money, after redeeming all 
 stock, the directors had. They had a very considerable sum of money 
 on hand, and there was an absolute necessity and the demands of com- 
 merce required that the canal should be enlarged. The Government re- 
 fused to take the canal and make the enlargement. They were unwill- 
 ing to undertake it upon the revenues of the canal as they then stood. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling- : 
 
 Q. Does your statement begin at the inception of the Government's 
 connection with this canal 1 
 
 A. No, sir ; it begins back of that. The original charter by the State 
 of Kentucky was the 12th January, 1825, and the Government became 
 a stockholder on the 26th May, 1826. 
 
 Q. That is the first act of the Government ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it became a stockholder in the corporation. We have 
 now come down to 1857, when the Government owned all the canal ex- 
 cept the five shares. That is, it owned the shares which it had sub- 
 scribed for, and the revenues of the canal had bought out all other 
 stockholders, so that the five stockholders stood as trustees for the 
 Government, having in their hands not only the canal, but having in 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 543 
 
 their hands, as the archives of the canal company will show, a very 
 large sum of money. I think it- was two hundred and odd thousand 
 dollars. 
 
 Q. Did the charter by the State of Kentucky require the trustees to 
 be shareholders ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And it was for that reason that the five shares remained in their 
 hands. 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and as you will see by the archives of the company, and 
 particularly from the report of Mr. Gallagher, they remained at the 
 request of the then Secretary of the Treasury. He requested that they 
 should remain and continue in the charge of the canal. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Mr. Guthrie being Secretary of the Treasury? 
 
 A. I think it was before Mr. Guthrie. I think it was Mr. Cobb who 
 first made the request. That was made before 1857. I recollect that 
 Mr. Guthrie, while he was Secretary of the Treasury, was cautious to 
 touch it very lightly and do as little as he possibly could about it, be- 
 cause of his past and then connection with the canal. As I have said, 
 two or three times, we have now got down to 1857, these directors thus 
 holding, and the Government of the United States having refused to 
 take charge of the canal and to make the enlargement. They got this 
 act of the Kentucky legislature authorizing them to make the enlarge- 
 ment, but they doubted their authority under that act without authority 
 from the Government of the United States. Then they got the resolu- 
 tion of 1860, made the mortgage, and proceeded to enlarge the canal, 
 and issued the bonds. The records will show exactly how many bonds 
 were issued. The Government afterward made divers appropriations to 
 the canal. The company always permitted the Government officers to 
 come here and expend the money, until a little over a year ago, when 
 Congress passed an act appropriating $300,000, or about that sum — I 
 am not accurate as to the figures — toward completing the Louisville 
 Canal, and providing in the same act that the tolls thereafter should 
 not exceed five cents on the dollar. The Government officer, General 
 Weitzel, came here and proposed to expend that $300,000 on the canal. 
 The company applied to me to know in what position they would stand if 
 they accepted that $300,000. I gave it as my opinion that they could 
 not cut the act in two, and that they had to take it as a whole ; that if 
 they accepted the $300,000, they would be bound to cut down the tolls 
 to 5 cents on tbe ton, and 5 cents on the ton would not pay for opening 
 and shutting the gates ; it would not pay the expenses of keeping the 
 canal. That would be virtually, as I thought, repudiating the debt — 
 the mortgage. I do not think they had the right to do it. 
 
 General Weitzel proceeded and the canal company stopped him. The 
 Government of the United States then filed its bill against the canal 
 company and we went before Judge Miller at Long Branch. He deliv- 
 ered an opinion in the case, which I also have here, and from which 1 
 will read an extract. Judge Miller differed with me in this opinion only 
 in one thing. I regarded the trustees as being trustees coupled with an 
 interest, and that their discretion could not be controlled. Judge 
 Miller regarded them as merely naked trustees, having no interest at 
 all. 
 
 By Mr. Conexing- : 
 
 Q. A naked power f 
 
 A. A naked power without interest, and he regarded that they were 
 subject to the control of the court. 
 
544 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 The opinion was that they could accept the $300,000 and still charge 
 tolls That was the result of his opinion and his expression is • as re- 
 gard's the first of these, I have no hesitation in expressing my entire 
 conviction that the bondholders have a lien upon the revenues ot tne 
 canal and a right to insist that the corporation shall protect those reve- 
 nues to the extent necessary to make entirely safe the payment ot their 
 debt and its accruing interest ; that until that debt is paid, or the mort- 
 gage satisfied, or otherwise discharged, with the consent of these bond- 
 holders, this right of theirs remains with a corresponding duty of the 
 directors of the corporation. 
 
 He however, granted the injunction sought for, and placed the whole 
 further improvement of the canal under the control of the court. Suit 
 is still pending just in that shape. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Now go, if you please, to the action of Congress at 
 the next session. 
 Mr. Conkling. Before that, if you please, what suit do you refer to ? 
 A. As I explained just now when General Weitzel came here and de- 
 manded to expend the $300,000 which had been appropriated by Congress, 
 in the act which appropriates that money, Congress said that after that 
 act was passed tolls should not be received except at 5 cents per ton. I 
 advised the directors to refuse the $300,000, being apprehensive that if 
 they accepted that part they would accept the remainder, and that the 
 tolls afterward would be 5 cents on the ton. 
 Q. But the suit, if you please — who commenced the suit ? . 
 A. The Government of the United States commenced the suit against 
 the directors of the canal company. 
 
 That you may understand exactly how the suit commenced, General 
 Weitzel sent his contractors down there and they began obstructing a 
 part of the canal. Under my advice — for I did not exactly know how 
 to sue the Government of the United States — the directors of the canal 
 sent their dredging boat there and as fast as they threw their earth into 
 the canal the dredging boat would throw it out, so that the Government 
 was compelled to sue the directors to obtain the privilege of expending 
 this $300,000. 
 
 Q. What was the form of the suit, and what was the judgment de- 
 manded ? 
 
 A. The first point they made was that the Government of the United 
 States owned the entire canal, and that these directors had no power and 
 no control over it ; that the whole thing belonged to the Government. 
 They made that claim first, and that was the claim that they set up. 
 Q. At common law or in equity ? 
 A. In equity. There was a prayer for an injunction. 
 Q. A perpetual injunction 1 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And a motion for an interlocutory injunction ? 
 A. Yes, sir. Judge Miller's opinion was perfectly satisfactory, I be- 
 lieve, to the agents of the Government, and I know that it was to the 
 directors. They were glad to be relieved of the responsibility, and glad 
 that the courts should say that they had a right to protect the bond- 
 holders, and at the same time get the benefit of the $300,000. They did 
 not want to take the responsibility of taking the $300,000, and running 
 the risk of getting tolls down to 5 cents. I suppose there never will be 
 another movement in the suit at all. 
 
 Q. This decision of Judge Miller's was on the motion for a prelim- 
 inary injunction ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 545 
 
 Q. And did the case ever come to a final hearing ? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. But rested upon that f 
 
 A. Yes, sir; it just rested upon that. It stands upon that, and both 
 sides were satisfied with the thing as it stood. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Do I understand you to say the Government of the United States 
 were satisfied to allow these trustees to continue to levy 50 cents until 
 the last dollar was paid ? 
 
 A. I say they were satisfied with the result of this suit. I don't know 
 what the Government was satisfied with. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Q. "What are the tolls now 1 
 
 A. That I cannot answer you. I am only the attorney for the canal. 
 Other gentlemen can reply to that question. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. I wish you to go on a little with the history of this matter. So far 
 I was familiar with it. Have you the act of Congress at the last session 
 making an appropriation for the final completion of this work ? 
 
 A. I have not it here, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you read it ? 
 
 A. Yes,*sir. 
 
 Q. Do you remember the provisions of the law ? 
 
 A. If there was any appropriation, last winter, I do not think my 
 attention was called to it. 
 
 Q. We intended in that action of last winter to assume these bonds 
 and to assume the whole control of the canal, and I was very much sur- 
 prised that the officers of the Government had not the canal in their 
 possession at this moment. 
 
 A. Judge Miller decided there, and I think correctly, that the Govern- 
 ment has not, upon a mere assumption, the right to take charge of the 
 canal. 
 
 Q. The assumption of the bonds ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. They must discharge the bonds. 
 
 Q. How can the Government discharge them when they are not 
 due? 
 
 A. That is for the Government to determine. They could purchase 
 them in. I think these bondholders have a right under the charter and 
 under their contract until the mortgage is satisfied. 
 
 Q. A right to what — to stop the navigation of the Ohio ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; but that the canal shall be managed by the machinery — 
 and Judge Miller affirms that — and after the manner provided in the 
 act of the Kentucky legislature and the resolution of Congress. 
 
 Q. Is it claimed that the Government of the United States, having 
 appropriated more than a million of dollars since in completing a new 
 canal, has no power over it ? 
 
 A. The Government of the United States has power over the canal, 
 but no power to interfere with the right of the mortgagees. 
 
 Q. But suppose it assumes the mortgage ? 
 
 A. That is not paying a debt. The mortgagees have the right to 
 have that canal controlled and managed by the machinery and by the 
 corporation, and I regard that as decided by Judge Miller, and I think 
 it is sound law. 
 
 Q. Do I understand that Judge Miller has decided that the Govern- 
 35 TS 
 
FJ46 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 ment of the United States, having now completed the canal, and re- 
 built and enlarged it, are compelled to keep this machinery and power 
 in force until the last bond is paid ? 
 
 A Until the Government satisfies the mortgage. 
 
 Q.' How can the Government satisfy the mortgage until the last note 
 becomes due and is paid 1 
 
 A. Of course it cannot. 
 
 Q Is it claimed by this company that they have the power to con- 
 tinue this agency or machinery and levy a tax upon the commerce of 
 the Ohio Eiver at 50 cents per ton until the last bond becomes clue and 
 is paid ? 
 
 A. Unless it is otherwise paid 1 
 
 Q. How can it be paid 1 
 
 A. By agreement between the Government and the bondholders; only 
 by the voluntary assent of the bondholder. The Government may vio- 
 late a contract, but it has no right to do so. I think Judge Miller has 
 affirmed that position. 
 
 Q. I would like to have that portion read.. 
 
 A. "As regards the first of these I have no hesitation in expressing 
 my entire conviction that the bondholders have a lien upon the reve- 
 nues of the canal, and a right to insist that the corporation shall pro- 
 tect these revenues to the extent necessary to make entirely safe the 
 payment of their debt, and its accruing interest, and that until that is 
 paid or the mortgage satisfied or otherwise discharged, with the con- 
 sent of these bondholders, this right of theirs remains with a corre- 
 sponding duty of the directors of the corporation. 
 
 Mr. Oonkling. That is full and to the point. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. It is perfectly good law. 
 
 Mr. Speed. And it rests upon the most undoubted authority, and not 
 only upon the most undoubted authority but upon the plainest princi- 
 ples of common honesty. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Who fixes the tax of 50 cents per ton? What law fixes that 
 charge ? 
 
 A. It is fixed under the charter, and it is a sliding scale. As I un- 
 derstand, these directors as rapidly as they can meet these bonds will 
 reduce the scale. 
 
 Q. But suppose the Government of the United States now assumes 
 positively the payment ? 
 
 A. Well, that is a matter between the Government and the bond- 
 holders, and the directors have nothing to do with it. 
 
 Q. Tou say that under that decision the assumption by the Govern- 
 ment of the United States is not a legal satisfaction of the mortgage f 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Suppose one bondholder should refuse to take pay for the bonds ? 
 
 A. Then I would say that as long as a single bond remained unsatis- 
 fied, that creditor, under his contract, had a right to all the rights 
 conferred on him by that contract, a right to continue the machinery of 
 that corporation up to a full satisfaction of his contract. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. There has been a universal complaint that' after the 
 Government had built this canal, and appropriated the money to pay 
 the bondholders, and assumed the obligation of this debt, that there 
 should be longer any controversy about the ownership of the canal. 
 
 The Witness. That is a matter between the Government and the 
 bondholders. Probably you are mistaken in regard to the Govern- 
 ment having paid so much toward this canal. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 547 
 
 A Yoioe. The bondholders paid $1,600,000. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. No one denies that they must be paid. 
 
 Mr. Speed. They have done that, and, besides that, commerce has paid 
 all the remainder. It is the people of the United States who have paid 
 it, and I think they and every one of them is bound to stand by the 
 contract as they find it. 
 
 Q. Bound to pay that mortgage ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; and bound to pay it according to its terms. 
 
 Q. Is that now the present attitude and present legal claim of the five 
 trustees, that they are to hold possession of this canal with the right to 
 levy tolls at the rate of 50 cents upon the ton % 
 
 A. I can say this for them. They stand there, without interest in the 
 matter, simply as stakeholders between the Government and bond- 
 holders. It has been an onerous office to them. They have often had 
 to strain their private credit to obtain the means necessary, but they are 
 determined that their good faith in this matter shall be maintained, and 
 that unless the Government adjust with the bondholders, they will 
 Btand upon their rights. 
 
 Q. How can the Government adjust with the bondholders? 
 
 A. That is a matter with the Government. They have nothing to do 
 with that. Under the authority of the Government they have issued 
 these bonds. Under the authority of the Government they have placed 
 these bonds upon the market, and they have become stakeholders as 
 between th'e Government aDd bondholders. 
 
 Q. What is the nature of these bonds % 
 
 A. Simply coupon-bonds, payable I do not recollect when. 
 
 Q. Bearing what interest 1 
 
 A. (By Mr. Joshua F. Speed.) Six per cent. 
 
 Q. When are they due? 
 
 A. "Four hundred thousand dollars was due the 1st of January, 1872, 
 which has been paid ; $400,000 will be due on the 1st of January, 1876, 
 part of which has been taken up. We have always taken up the bonds 
 as we have money. The remainder will be due each four years there- 
 after. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. Give us the total debt. 
 
 A. The first communication as president of the canal company that we 
 have received from the Secretary of the Treasury was received yesterday, 
 and I was just preparing an answer this evening to the queries pro- 
 pounded by him. We have never had any official notice 
 
 Mr. Sherman, (interrupting, to Mr. James Speed.) Is there any other 
 matter that you think will throw any light upon this subject 1 
 
 A. I will mention that you will find a very voluminous and satisfac- 
 tory report by Mr. Gallagher. I do not know to which House it was 
 made, but it was made some years ago, and, I think, reported to the 
 Senate. That document gives you a perfect history of the whole canal. 
 
 Q. What year was that report made i 
 
 A. I do not recollect, sir. I should make this further remark. This 
 mortgage- was made to Isaac Caldwell, of this city, and to Dean Eick- 
 mond, of New York. Mr. Eichmond is dead ; Mr. Isaac Caldwell is the 
 surviving trustee. I cannot speak for him, but he can for himself, as to 
 what his rights and duties may be under the deed of trust. He has no 
 interest in the matter, and, I think, the Government and nobody else 
 should ask him to assume any responsibility. 
 
 Q. He is trustee for the bondholders ? 
 
548 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; he is trustee for the bondholders. m(fflHffllrf 
 
 You will see from the acts of the Kentucky legislature, as I mentioned, 
 that the canal is only given up to the Government of the VnM*™ea 
 upon the condition that it shall charge tolls sufficient to pay for the use 
 of the canal and to keep it in repair. It contemplates upon that sur- 
 render that tolls to that extent are always to be received by the Gov- 
 ernment of the United States. In March, 1872 or 1873, and I forget 
 which, I went to the Kentucky legislature, desiring to make the canal 
 absolutely free, with a series of resolutions, which you will rind, and dis- 
 pensing with that provision altogether, hoping to make the canal free. 
 I did not, in terms, dispense with it, but specify conditions upon which 
 the Government might assume the canal. For instance, that the city 
 of Louisville should have bridging powers ; that it should have, as you 
 have seen if you have visited the canals, the same rights in regard to 
 sewerage ; that there should be some rights in regard to water privi- 
 leges ; and that, instead of surrendering to the Government of the 
 United States police powers of the State, it should remain over the 
 whole ; and that finally, when the debts were paid or the mortgage dis- 
 charged and this little stock that they held paid for, then the surrender 
 was to be made. My object in having that act of the legislature so 
 passed was two-fold : first, to get this bridging and sewering privilege 
 and the water privilege ; and, finally, to get rid of that feature of the 
 act of 1842 which required always that there should be tolls. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. What is the date of that opinion of Judge Miller ? 
 
 A. It was last September or August, a year ago. 
 
 Q. August or September, 1872 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I suggest that if you will just read, or have read, the letter 6f the 
 president of this company of the 14th December, 1871, propounding to 
 you two questions, and just that termination of your answer to them, 
 that it will give a clearer view of this precise point that appears in your 
 statement. 
 
 A. On the 14th December, 1871, Mr. Joshua F. Speed, president of the 
 Louisville and Portland Canal Company, addressed to me, as the attor- 
 ney of the canal, the following letter : 
 
 Deae Sir : With a view of mating the canal free, certain legislation is proposed by 
 parties seeking to attain that end, and they have had a conference with us. We desire 
 to know, first, would we be warranted in surrendering the canal before the contem- 
 plated enlargement for which the mortgage was made and trust created is completed? 
 Second, would an appropriation by the Government of tbe United States of a sum 
 sufficient to complete the work, with assumpsit of the bonds, warrant the directors in 
 releasing the mortgage, or would the bondholders have the right to require us to hold 
 a mortgage on the property until the bonds are paid ? 
 
 In answer to the first of these questions I replied : 
 
 The State government was anxious to have the work done and placed 
 it in the power of the Louisville and Portland Canal Company to do it, 
 and the Federal Government gave its revenue from the canal to the com- 
 pany to accomplish it. Authority comes from each government and a 
 duty arises to each. Kentucky cannot deprive the United States of the 
 right of a stockholder, nor can the United States demand of Kentucky 
 to be more than a stockholder in a corporation created by Kentucky. 
 Has not the United States by the resolution of 1860 devoted the rev- 
 enue and credit of the company to the enlargement of the canal and 
 the construction of a branch canal, and made the corporation the trus- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 549 
 
 tee for its accomplishment ? I do not think the Government can revoke 
 this grant until its object is completed, nor can the Government of the 
 United States Change the trustee without the consent of Kentucky. 
 The revenues from the canal are not collected under a Federal but State 
 law, as has been shown. Neither the State nor Federal Government 
 can abolish all tolls to the prejudice of a bondholder. 
 
 So the Federal Government, being a mere stockholder in a State cor- 
 poration, cannot, without the consent of the State, dispense with the 
 corporate machinery under and by which the United States Government 
 became a stockholder. Though the Federal Government is the sole 
 beneficiary of the corporation, no tolls can be collected except under 
 the State law and by the machinery of a corporation created by State law. 
 The company owes a duty to the State and a duty to the United States. 
 These obligations are several. As has been said, the State cannot 
 abolish or modify the charter to the company without the consent of 
 the United States, nor can the United States exercise any rights or 
 powers over the canal, except as a stockholder in a State corporation. 
 From all which it follows that the president and directors have, under 
 the State and Federal law, assumed a trust which they must perform 
 until relieved by the proper acts of the two governments. Neither gov- 
 ernment can, without the consent of the other, relieve the president and. 
 directors of the canal company from the duty of enlarging and branch- 
 ing the canal out of the revenues and upon the credit of the company. 
 
 Now it was in view of meeting the legislation contemplated by this 
 that, in the succeeding March, 1872, 1 think it was, I went to the Ken- 
 tucky legislature with that resolution and got passed through the Ken- 
 tucky legislature the necessary legislation to accomplish this thing. 
 Then it was for you gentlemen to do the remainder. 
 
 Q. Have you a copy of that communication ? 
 
 A. I have none here. They were incorporated in an act or bill intro- 
 duced by Mr. Stevenson, from Cincinnati, in the lower house. You will 
 have no trouble in finding that. 
 
 By Mr. Conexing : 
 
 Q. And it was after that opinion that this judgment, or order rather, 
 of Judge Miller, upon the motion for an interlocutory judgment, was 
 made from which you have read 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir j it was after that opinion. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. You have not examined to see how far the question is affected by 
 the law of last winter, which appropriates enough money to complete 
 the canal and assumes the payment of the debt? 
 
 A. I have had no occasion to examine it at all. I have just set down 
 firmly in my mind, as I think, upon principle and authority, that the 
 Government cannot, without violating its own solemn contract, take 
 that canal without paying the debt. 
 
 Q. But how can it pay the debt? 
 
 A. After you have made a debt twenty years hence, or it has been 
 made by your authority for you, and you want to pay it, you cannot 
 complain because you cannot pay it. • 
 
 Q. Is there any doubt about the power of the Government of the 
 United States to assess the value of the property of these stockholders 
 and pay them their full compensation ? 
 
 A. If you are taking it for public use, I suppose you could possibly 
 do that. I will not answer that question right off. 
 
550 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Tou say here, " from all which it follows that the president and 
 directors have, under the State and Federal law, assumed a , trust wnicn 
 they must perform until relieved toy the proper acts of the two govern, 
 ments;" I wish to inquire of you, if you please, if you mean there to 
 convey the idea that by the joint action of the State of Kentucky and 
 the Federal Government they could pay all those bonds, for instance, 
 and relieve the trustees and satisfy the bondholders. 
 
 A. With the consent of the bondholders ; without the consent of the 
 bondholders, I do not think you can. . 
 
 Mr. Norwood. That is not implied in your remark here, and it is the 
 reason I put that interrogatory to you. 
 
 A. If you will read the whole opinion you will find that that is in 
 there. 
 
 Examination of Mr. Joshua F. Speed. 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Will you please state such facts as will give this committee 
 full information as to the present condition of the Portland Canal ? 
 
 Answer. I brought with me a reply to a letter of the Secretary of the 
 Treasury, which I have started to answer. 
 
 By Mr. Conkxing : 
 
 Q. You are the president of the company? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I have never, until yesterday, received a communication 
 directly from the Secretary of the Treasury with reference to the legis- 
 lation of which Mr. Sherman has been asking my brother. I suppose 
 I have been inquired of by the United States attorney here before upon 
 these matters. The Government has regularly, I may say, sent out here 
 and examined all of our accounts, under almost every Secretary of the 
 Treasury who has been in since I was a young man. I have not been 
 president of the canal very long — only after the death of Mr. Guthrie. 
 Previous to that time I was a director. As I say, I have received no 
 communication officially from the Secretary of the Treasury until yes- 
 terday. 
 
 I regret that I did not think of bringing his letter, so that you will 
 understand the answers which I have made to his inquiries, but you will 
 catch the questions by the replies which I give. 
 
 I say : " Your communication of the 22d instant, submitting certain 
 inquiries in regard to this company, is received. I answer — 1st. There 
 are now outstanding 1,172 bonds of $1,000 each, with coupons attached. 
 The bonds bear 6 per cent, per year interest, payable half-yearly, on the 
 1st day of January and the 1st day of July. All the interest has been 
 paid as it became due upon presentation of the coupons." 
 
 The bonds matured as follows: "373 on the 1st January, 1876; 399 
 in 1881; and 400 on the 1st January, 1886." 
 
 He then asks, " Who holds the bonds f and " the price !" I sny "I 
 have no means of knowing the price at which the bonds might be' pur- 
 chased except from the published price-current, a copy of which is here- 
 to attached." 
 
 He then asks "where the bonds are held?" I reply, " It is impossible 
 for me to give a complete list of the owners or holders of these bonds. 
 Any list from me would be so limited as to be valueless. I have an im- 
 pression that mosf of them are owned by Kentuckians." 
 
 Thirdly, he asks, " What i3 the indebtedness of the company other 
 than bonds?" I reply, " The indebtedness of the company is as follows-" 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 551 
 
 {The witness here stated that he was unable to furnish the figures, 
 which were not before him at the present time.) 
 
 Our treasurer told me that there was "a note of $5,000; balance on 
 construction of toll-houses and offices at locks, $3,361.60; safe for office, 
 $350 ; balance due hands, $700 ; probable expense for October, $6,136.20 ; 
 balance due on gates, $8,000 ; coupons due 1st January, 1874, $35,160 ; 
 salaries and office-expenses, $1,975. The preceding includes all the ob- 
 ligations referred to. 
 
 He then asks about this stock. I say, " There are five shares of the 
 stock of the company owned by individuals, each share being for $100, 
 
 on which there is interest due since .' We have never paid but 6 
 
 per cent, interest, and is so small that I do not believe I have collected 
 mine for the last five years." 
 
 The amount of money in the treasury at this time is $26,813.49. 
 
 Q. What is the price of these bonds, as appears by the annexed 
 price-list ? 
 
 A. They vary according to their issue. 
 
 Q. According to the time of their maturity ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. They are canal bonds, second issue. There are no first 
 issue ; they are all taken up. 
 
 Q. The first to mature are worth how much ? 
 
 A. Ninety-two to ninety-four. 
 
 Q. The next? 
 
 A. Ninety-one to ninety-two. 
 
 Q. The next? 
 
 A. Ninety to ninety-one. 
 
 Q. So that the shortest-lived bonds are the most valuable ? 
 
 A. The shortest-lived ones are the most valuable in our market. 
 
 By Mr. Davis: 
 Q. Are they 6 per cent, bonds ? 
 A. Yes, sir ; 6 per cent, bonds. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 Q. Is the interest payable in currency or coin ? 
 A. Currency. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. You have estimated the amount of coupons due January 1, 1874; 
 what will be the probable amount of receipts ? 
 
 A. I think it will be eneugh to pay that floating debt with the money 
 on hand, just about, and the coupons, if we have a good run now, as 
 we call it. 
 
 Q. What is the amount of money on hand? 
 
 A. Twenty-six thousand and some odd dollars. 
 
 Q. As president of the company, do you claim to exercise any author- 
 ity other than to protect the bondholders ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. If the bonded debt were extinguished, then what? 
 
 A. I would be glad to surrender, if it was extinguished to-morrow. 
 
 Q. Is there any practical difficulty in the way of buying up these 
 bonds at the market-rates, in your judgment ? 
 
 A. I think you could not buy them at the-market rates. 
 
 Q. At what rate could they be bought ? 
 
 A. Not less than par. 
 
 Q. Do you think they could be bought at par ? 
 
 A. I am pretty certain of it. In a communication that I had from 
 
552 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 somebody before the board from Cincinnati, they thought, which I saw- 
 was running in your mind here, that one man might defeat tne ODject 
 of the Government or ten. We said, as a board, that if that was done 
 we would not protect any such people by trying to hold a great prop- 
 erty as this for so paltry a sum. In justice to myself I must say that 
 the parties paid as much as these bonds were quoted at, as we needed 
 the work. Thev are held now, I have since learned, very largely by 
 our charitable institutions and persons who want a perfectly good, sol- 
 vent security. 
 
 Q. Would not these persons, these bondholders, so iar as you know, 
 consent to the substitution of a direct assumption by the Government 
 of the United States of these bonds. 
 
 A. I have made diligent inquiry on that subject and have not found 
 one who would. I was going to say the responsibility was this : They 
 loaned this company $1,600,000 upon a mortgage, which is of record. 
 The company has exhibited its ability to pay the $1,600,000 by paying 
 the $400,000, which was due at maturity. It is a better security now 
 than when they took it, and they do not know anything they could get 
 which would be as safe. I think it will take the present rate of tolls to 
 meet certainly the next $400,000 maturing. The tolls would be lessened 
 by the company. I wish to state that when the first $400,000 matured, 
 owing to the expenditure of this money, which we were anxious for, our 
 receipts were not as large as they would have been if we had not been 
 interrupted by giving up the canal to General Weitzel for the purpose 
 of making these improvements. We, therefore, when the first $400,000' 
 matured, did not have the money of the canal company in hand to pay 
 it. The directors went forward and borrowed $100,000, or a little 
 over, and nearly paid that, making a floating debt of it, $5,000 being yet 
 due. That $100,000 has been re-imbursed, and the floating debt is now 
 almost nothing. To raise the $400,000 to be paid in 1876, if it is to be 
 paid out of the revenue of the canal, as contemplated by the mortgage, 
 it will take 50 cents per ton. 
 
 By Mr. CONKLING : 
 
 Q. Please name the present directors of this company, beside yourself. 
 
 A. J. H. Eohrer, B. Lockhart, J. W. Henney, and John Oaperton. 
 
 Q. Do they, or any of them, and, if so, .which, hold these bonds 1 
 
 A. I do not think any one of them holds a bond. I know 1 don't, and 
 I speak for Mr. Henney. Mr. Caperton is here, and can speak for him- 
 self. 
 
 Mr. Oaperton. I have not any. 
 
 Mr. Lookhakt. I have not any. 
 
 Mr. Speed. I know that. Mr. Eohrer has not any. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Who fixes the rate of toll ? Is that fixed by the legislature of 
 Kentucky, or fixed by you under the law ? 
 
 A. By us under the law. 
 
 Q. It is at your discretion, then, to lower it or not 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there, any maximum fixed 1 
 
 A. I do not think there is. The tolls were 80 cents a ton a good many 
 years ago. 
 
 Q. And you reduced them to 50 cents ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any want of power in you to reduce these tolls down to an 
 amount sufficient to pay the interest "I 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 553 
 
 A. I suppose there would be. But we expect to pay the principal; 
 the parties who want in 1876 their principal as well as the interest. 
 
 Q. That is a long time ahead, but is there any want of power 1 
 
 A. No, sir ; I should suppose not. 
 
 Q. Would the trustees at the assumption by the Government of the 
 United States of the principal of the debt have any hesitation in acting 
 upon their discretionary power to reduce all their rates of tolls to a rate 
 that would satisfy the Government ? 
 
 A. Well, sir, I do not think I would like to do it. I cannot speak 
 for the others. I think that when I accepted that trust, and agreed to 
 pay that money according to the mortgage under the law, it required us 
 to pay it out of the revenues, and I think we would be faithless in our 
 trust not to create a revenue at least both to meet the principal and 
 interest. 
 
 Q. You would be willing to collect the money two years before it was 
 due, and you refuse to accept the obligation of the United States ' 
 
 A. No, sir ; I want to explain. For instance, we are now paying the 
 bonds due in 1876. We are taking them up, and always have done it 
 except once, when I went to Congress, and I recollect that very ques- 
 tion which you put to me there when we wanted Congress to relieve us 
 altogether, and take charge of the property. We then had $238,000, 
 which I wanted to turn over. I visited Washington at the instance of 
 Mr. Guthrie. I recollect handing you, Mr. Sherman, a pamphlet, and 
 talking about it. 
 
 Q. I think I told you to apply it on the bonds. 
 
 A. No, sir ; you rather doubted the statement that anybody should 
 want to give up such a thing as this, and pay the $238,000, and compli- 
 mented me by saying that if you had not seen my name to it you would 
 not have believed it. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q- Are these directors rendering gratuitous service? I do not speak 
 of the officers, but of the directors. I mean, are you paid or unpaid ? 
 
 A. They pay me $1,500 a year as president. 
 
 Q. That is, as an officer ; but I speak now of you as a director. 
 
 A. We get nothing as directors ; nothing in the world but 6 per cent, 
 on a hundred dollars. 
 
 Q. What officers are paid ? 
 
 A. We have a treasurer, a book-keeper, and a vice-president ; that is 
 all the directors. 
 
 Q. And the president also ? 
 
 A. The president is one of the five. 
 
 Q. But you have as officers a president, and vice-president, a treas- 
 urer, and who else ? 
 
 A. A book-keeper. 
 
 Q. He is an employe" rather than otherwise ? 
 
 A. He keeps the books of the company. 
 
 Q. He is an employe" and not an officer, I take it ? 
 
 A. He is one of the directors. 
 
 Q. Then you have an attorney ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Without asking the question directly, if you would like to state, 
 I would like to know how beneficial this officership is to you and to the 
 others. 
 
 A. I will state my own salary, which is $1,500. 
 
 Q. And that of the others? 
 
554 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD 
 
 A. The vice-president receives $1,000. The treasurer receives $1,000 
 The bookkeeper, who keeps the vouchers and everything, receives 
 $1,500; and the attorney for this company receives the enormous sum 
 of $500 a year. I wish to state, in justice to my associates, that from 
 the beginning, no matter where we may be misrepresented, the nye gen- 
 tlemen are always willing to give up this canal whenever you will take 
 it off our hands and relieve us, according to the law, of the trust incurred. 
 We took great pains-I know I did— to sell these bonds at a good price. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. And your statement, if I understand you right, is that in graduating 
 this tonnage at 50 cents per ton, carpenter's measure, you have had re- 
 gard to fixing a sum, and only a sum, which would be adequate to dis- 
 charge this trust % t _ ,, ,,, 
 
 A Yes, sir. If the debt was reduced to $100,000 there would be no 
 more tolls collected than would pay the interest on that $100,000 and 
 discharge it and pay for dredging and keeping the canal in order. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS: 
 Q. Is the Government or yourself keeping it in order now 1 
 A. We are. We have to put in an entire new set of gates this year 
 which we built. 
 
 Q. Do you speak of the old or of the new ? 
 A. Both new and old. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 Q. And you use both sets of locks now % 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The old ones for smaller boats and the larger ones for boats de- 
 manding a larger accommodation f 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Is your rate of toll now less than it was before you made the pay- 
 ment of the first installment ? 
 
 A. No, sir, it is not; and in justice to the board I ought to explain 
 that, as probably what I said before did somewhat explain it. Owing 
 to the interruption, which we were very glad of, in the receipt of tolls, 
 the revenues of the canal did not meet the first installment of bonds of 
 $400,000 ; but the directors paid those bonds, they borrowing the money. 
 They did not have the money. 
 
 Q. I remember you stated that you borrowed $100,000 ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we paid that, and then the revenue of the canal had to 
 be continued because we had to reimburse that and pay it. 
 
 Q. But has not the tonnage been increased annually i? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did not that enable you to make a proportionate reduction 1 
 
 A. Well, sir, we have not made any, because we are looking forward 
 to paying — we don't think that 1876 is so far off. We are looking for- 
 ward to prepare for that time, and not to holding the money. But I 
 wish to state, in justice to my associates, that we have brought down 
 the debt from $1,200,000, at the beginning of the year, to $1,172,000. 
 We bought these bonds within the year. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. And as you find yourself in the possession of a sum of money you 
 buy in so many bonds ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEAB.OARD. 555 
 
 Q. The interruption of tolls you speak of was from the enlargement 
 of the canall 
 A. Yes, sir. It was necessary, and we did not complain of it. 
 
 By Mr. DAYIS : 
 
 Q. In buying those bonds do you get them at the quotation, or do 
 you pay a hundred cents? 
 
 A. We do not pay a hundred cents. We buy them at whatever we 
 can and charge them up at whatever we pay for them. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Then your toll is levied for three purposes ; you first pay all the 
 current expenses ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Secondly, you pay the annual interest ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And, thirdly, you have a reserve : fund sufficient to pay install- 
 ments coming due % 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now as to 1876, would you not be enabled to reduce that toll ? 
 
 A. I think so, sir. 
 
 Q. One-half of the debt would be paid then ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman: 
 
 Q. Has the Secretary of the Treasury offered you bonds of the United 
 States or money, or written to you proposing to pay money for the 
 bonds ? 
 
 A. No, sir, not directly to me; but I understand that the United 
 States district attorney has been written to upon that subject. 
 
 Q. Has the Secretary of the Treasury ever written you that the Gov- 
 ernment of the United States would assume the payment of this bonded 
 indebtedness 1 
 
 A. Never, sir. I thought I had stated very clearly that this was the 
 first communication I had ever received from the Secretary of the 
 Treasury. 
 
 Q. I will say that I understood from others that the Secretary had 
 proffered to pay the market-value of these bonds, and it was rejected. 
 
 A. I cannot say what the Secretary has done, but I can say that I 
 have never heard of it. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. You speak of the diminution of tolls after 1876, Let me understand 
 you. Can you diminish tolls after 1876 more than before, except in 
 respect to increase of tonnage 1 ? To make my question more definite, 
 will not the next installment be as large as the coming installment, and 
 is not the period at the end of which it must be paid of the same dura- 
 tion as the now elapsing period ? 
 
 A. The period from 1876 to 1881 
 
 Q. I speak of principal, and not interest. 
 
 A. Of course, I think the increased tonnage of the canal and the de- 
 crease of interest, the directors not desiring to claim more than to pay 
 the interest on the debt, would allow of a reduction of tolls. ' 
 
 Q. And it is in respect to those two elements that you could diminish ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. As to the payment of the installment of interest, the quantities in 
 the same would be exactly as they are now ? 
 
556 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. Just exactly as they are now, but it would be a very consider able 
 gain upon the interest. There would be 6 per cent, interest ou $800,000. 
 I hope and trust that in 1876 we will ™t be as we were in : 187-. 
 
 Q It would be 6 per cent, interest on $400,000, would it not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but half the debt will have been paid in 187b. 
 
 Q. But only $400,000 from this time on ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir: I was going to say that I hope and trust we will be able 
 to pay the 1876 debt, and then commence earning for 1881 earlier. I 
 stated that when 1872 came we had to borrow $100,000 I hope we will 
 not haye to do that. I do hope that before that time these bonds will 
 be paid. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Does your statement show the percentage of increase in the ton- 
 nage? 
 
 A. It does not. I know it is very great. 
 
 Q. Can you estimate what would be the proportion of decrease in the 
 rate of tolls, based upon the increase of tonnage ? 
 
 A. I have made some little estimates myself, without going into de- 
 tail. I think the tolls could be decreased 25 per cent, after the next 
 $400,000 are paid ; that is, after 1876. 
 
 By Mr. Oonkling : 
 Q. Reduced one-quarter ? 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is, however, a mere opinion. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. Does not the completion of the new part of the canal and enlarge- 
 ment increase the tolls ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you take that into consideration when you say 25 per cent. ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. We have had the new locks at work. 
 
 Q. But only for a year or two? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; but still it has been a trial. If commerce increases it 
 can be increased more. I state that, looking at things as they are at 
 present. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. How much money has the Government paid that has not been re- 
 imbursed, including these last $300,000 ? 
 
 A. Do you mean how much has the Government appropriated since 
 the war? 
 
 Q. No, sir; the whole amount. 
 
 A. You gentlemen who are members of Congress can recollect that 
 more accurately, perhaps, than I can. I did not charge my mind with 
 that. ' 
 
 Q. What is the term of office of the directors ? 
 
 A. It is no particular time. They are a sort of trustees, and I think 
 the law is this, although I never looked at it, that if a man dies some- 
 body whom they elect takes his stock at par— pays a hundred dollars 
 for it. 
 
 Q. Who elects? 
 
 A. My brother could answer that question; I am not familiar with it. 
 We have proxies who are required to vote. 
 
 Q. Is not the Government a stockholder? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there no stock owned by the United States now ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 557 
 
 A. My brother Will answer you that question better than I can. 
 
 Mr. James Speed. Of course, there is stock owned by the United 
 
 States. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling: 
 
 Q. Who Totes on the stock of the United States by the charter of 
 Kentucky? 
 
 A. Bach stockholder. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. The five? 
 
 A. The five stockholders, except the original stock which was sub- 
 scribed. The Government can vote that if it chooses; but the charter 
 under which the whole private stock was absorbed gives the right to 
 those trustees to vote that stock until the Government takes charge. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. Did the Government assent to that stipulation ? 
 Mr. Joshua P. Speed. O, yes ; you will find that in Mr. Guthrie's 
 letter. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What is the annual income of the canal ? 
 
 A. About $200,000 a year. 
 
 Q. Is that net? 
 
 A. Gross. 
 
 Q. What are the expenses? 
 
 Mr. Lockhart. About $60,000, or somewhere in that neighborhood. 
 This year it would be a good deal more. We built new gates, which 
 cost the company $30,000. 
 
 Q. Please state, the size of the canal and the locks. 
 
 Joshua F. Speed. I will get our superintendent to answer that 
 question. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Judge Miller says in general terms, " This is a distinct and clear ap- 
 propriation of $300,000 for continuing the work in which the Gov- 
 ernment had for several years been engaged, and on which it had 
 spent, aside from its stock, near a million of dollars." I judge by that 
 nearly $1,300,000 have been expended. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. I think it is more than that. 
 
 Mr. James Speed. I think it is more than that. 
 
 Mr. Joshua Speed. It was not a part of our duty to inquire into 
 that at all. 
 
 Examination of Captain Milton B. Adams, United States Engineers : 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. You have charge of the work of the improvement of the 
 Louisville and Portland Canal ? 
 Answer. I have charge in the absence of General Weitzel. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. What amount of money has been expended by the Government 
 of the United States upon this work since the close of the war ? 
 
 A. I cannot say exactly. My connection with the work commenced 
 only a year ago. It is about a million of dollars, I think, since the war. 
 I have just sent for some statistics upon that point. . 
 
 Q. How much during the last year ? 
 
 A. One hundred thousand dollars. 
 
558 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 O. Please give the dimensions of the canal. ^ _ 
 
 A Two miles and one-tenth in length, and from 80 to 90 feet in width. 
 The' width is not uniform; in some places, for purposes of navigation, 
 it is made wider. Where there is a bend the boats would require a 
 wider space to navigate in than where it is perfectly straight. 
 
 Q. What is the size of the locks? 
 
 A. Three hundred and fifty-six by eighty feet ; or they would clear a 
 320-foot boat over all. 
 
 Q. How many of them are there ? 
 
 A. Of the new locks there are two. 
 
 Q. Only two locks in the entire canal ? 
 
 A. In the entire canal there are six. 
 
 Q. What is the lift of each ? 
 
 A. The lift of the first lock in the new canal is 14 feet, and of the 
 second one is 12 feet. That is all in the new canal. In the old canal 
 there are but three. There are only three of them, the lift being eight 
 feet for each. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. One is a protection -lock ? 
 
 A. One is a guard-lock. That would make the entire fall 26 feet in 
 the new and 24 feet in the old. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. Is the fall in the old and new alike? 
 
 A. It is not precisely the same ; there is a slight fall between the 
 mouths. The bay above the two locks is the same, but the mouth of the 
 new lock is some 1,400 feet farther down the river than the mouth of 
 the old lock, and the fall of the river in that distance makes the differ- 
 ence of elevation. 
 
 Q. Are you at work now on the lock ? 
 
 A. Not upon the lock. We are at work upon the improvement. We 
 are at work at the entrance to the canal and just below the outlet of the 
 two locks. We have just been forced out. A rise has driven us out. 
 We were working there on Saturday last. 
 
 Q. What do'ing 1 
 
 A. Excavating.rock. There is a reef extending along the apron-dam 
 leading into the canal where we expect to remove 6,000 cubic yards of 
 stone, and benefit the entrance. We have removed, during the present 
 season, although a short one, about 2,000 yards. At the outlet of the 
 new locks, the miter-sill at the lower gates was lower than a reef of rock 
 which extended out into the river, thereby obstructing the navigation, 
 and was an obstacle right in front of the lock. We were obliged to sur- 
 round that reef with a coffer-dam, and take it out. We finished Satur- 
 day a channel 90 feet in width, right through that reef. 
 
 Q. Is the appropriation of $100,000 of this year sufficient to finish 
 the work entirely 1 
 
 A. It is sufficient to finish that work of improving the canal proper. 
 A portion of it will also be expended in sodding and planting the slopes 
 in grass or ornamenting the slopes in some way. But there is an addi- 
 tional sum required in case the channel known as the Indiana Chute, 
 which is a channel of the main river, over near Indiana, should be im- 
 proved by the excavation of stone through that channel. It will require 
 an additional appropriation of probably between $50, 000 and $75,000. 
 There has been no accurate estimate made of it. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 559 
 
 Q. "What is that chute used for ? 
 
 A. It is used in case of the water being high enough to allow boats to 
 go down the river and through that chute. When the river gets up 8 
 feet on the falls, or even lower than that, 10 feet in the canal would be 
 8 feet down the Indiana chute. Boats will then go down through there 
 in preference to going through the canal. 
 
 The dam that we have built crosses the head of the rapids has a 
 gap.. It is not completed yet, but it is intended to have a gap 400 feet 
 in width, in that dam to allow boats to pass down and under the bridge 
 and around by the main river-channel instead of going through the 
 canal. There are some reefs of rock in that, which if blasted out would 
 very much benefit the channel- way, and improve the navigation. 
 
 Q. Can coal-boats and tugs go down the river ? 
 
 A. They can in case of a sufficiently high water. 
 
 Q. What do you call sufficiently high water 1 
 
 A. I mean 20 feet on our gauges, which would be ordinary water. 
 
 Q. Then it would take 20 feet of water for a convoy of coal-boats to go 
 down the main stream, would it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it would take 20 feet of water in the canal. The exact 
 height I would not like to state, as I have not given that attention to 
 that part of the river that I have to the canal proper. My attention 
 during the entire year has been confined to the improvement along the 
 canal itself. I presume some of the river gentlemen, or perhaps Mr. 
 Lockhart, might answer that. 
 
 Q. My object was to find out if the coal convoys could go down the 
 river on ordinary water without going through the canal. 
 
 A. Ordinarily they do not go down there, even though the water may 
 be favorable, because the water is very rapid, and there is danger of 
 their colliding with the piers of the bridge ; and the channel is tortuous, 
 and they may break up their tows. 
 
 As a general rule, even where they have favorable stages of water, 
 they go through the canal ; but single flat-boats or steamboats very fre- 
 quently go down through the Indiana chute. 
 
 Q. Can you state whether the coal which comes down the river for 
 towns below has to pay 50 cents for passing through the canal ? 
 
 A. I believe it does not. They pay but 25, and those coal-barges are 
 but half-rate as I have understood. I have always understood that they 
 were half-rated. 
 
 Examination of Enoch Lockhart. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. Tou have charge, I believe, of the locks of the canal ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much water does it require for a convoy of coal-boats to go 
 down the river without going through the canal? 
 
 A. For these large coal- boats it takes about an average of 11 feet of 
 water in the canal ; it makes about 8 feet of water in the falls. 
 
 By Mr. CONKLING : 
 Q. About 8 feet do you say ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; over the rocks — what is called over the rocks — so that 
 they can go safely over. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 Q. How much rise would that be iu the river, as it is usually called % 
 
560 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. A rise, say at Cincinnati, of 25 feet of water, would make what 
 we call a stage of water in which coal-boats could go over the tans. 
 
 Q. Then the present stage of water would not allow coal- boats to go 
 over? 
 
 A. No, sir ; there is not quite water enough. 
 
 Q. If a convoy of coal-boats were to come to the canal, would they 
 have to break up ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir; they would have to break up their tows. 
 
 Q. To what extent"? 
 
 A. They have to single out to tow through, putting them in a train 
 like a train of cars, one right behind the other. 
 
 Q. Do I understand you that only one boat would go abreast? 
 
 A. They sometimes go through double, but then there is more risk of 
 catching of the sides and danger of sinking them. They generally string 
 out, and go one right after the other. They find it is the handiest and 
 quickest way. When you go to the locks you double up. 
 
 Q. How many boats? 
 
 A. That depends on the size. These common coal-barges take in six 
 in these new locks. Two were taken in the old locks. When it comes 
 to coal-boats, we only put three in the new locks, and one in the old 
 locks. That is the way it is generally worked. They would be three 
 and three abreast if they double up in that way. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. What is the ordinary tonnage of these barges ? 
 
 A. I suppose these barges now would carry about 12,000 bushels of 
 coal. I believe Pittsburgh coal weighs 76 pounds to the bushel. You 
 would have to make a little calculation to see what the tonnage in that 
 case would be. That barge would pay probably about $60 to $65. 
 That is the way they run. Sometimes they vary in size. We measure 
 them. Say the boat is 24 feet, throwing it into square feet, and she is 
 charged 2 cents a foot. 
 
 By Mr. SHERMAN : 
 Q. What is the usual size ? 
 A. Twenty-four by 130. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. What is the amount by the foot ? 
 A. Two cents for loaded boats. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Have you different toll upon coal and other merchandise ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is it ? 
 
 A. It varies. Coal, salt, and iron are 2 cents per foot ; regular pro- 
 duce 3 cents per foot. ■ 
 
 Q. How much would that be per ton for coal ? 
 
 A. I do not recollect now. Four hundred and eighty tons, say, would 
 be $62.40. They build the coal-boats larger than 24 by 130. They are 
 built to carry from 20,000 to 25,000 bushels of coal; generally 170 to 
 175 feet long, and 24 to 25 feet wide. 
 
 Q. In addition to the boat, do you charge the tug having them in 
 charge? ° 
 
 A. Yes, sir; she pays her custom-house tonnage 50 cents a ton, what- 
 ever she measures. That is custom-house measurement. Carpenter's 
 measurement is different. Generally speaking, a boat on our waters 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 561 
 
 -carries double what the measurement of the custom-house is. For in- 
 stance, a boat measuring 500 tons will carry a thousand tons. 
 
 . By Mr. Oonkling- : 
 
 . Q. So that on an actual capacity the charge is 25 cents per ton 1! 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How if the boats run light, taking not only the tugs towing but 
 the barges ? 
 
 A. When the barges are light, or rather empty, they pay only ht^T 
 price ; but all boats with custom-house papers — steamboats I am spea.1 
 ing of — now pay their regular 50 cents per ton. 
 
 Q. Whether light or loaded? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But the barges — the convoys ? 
 
 A. They are put at half-price, if empty. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. They return empty? 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Q. Do they ever go up the open river? 
 
 A. O, yes : if the river is high enough, they go up around over the 
 falls. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. How much water do they require to go up light f 
 
 A. They can go up on about 10£ feet on the canal light, with their 
 empty barges. 
 
 Q. How much is that on the river ? 
 
 A. On the middle chute about 4£ feet to 5 feet ; say about 21 or 22 
 feet rise. That is what it takes to make that much water on the falls 
 of the middle chute. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. What proportion of the year can boats run around the locks 
 empty 1 
 
 A. For up-stream boats I would state from a month to six weeks. It 
 varies according to the high water ; but that much time at least up 
 stream. Down-stream boats generally go over that ; probably three to 
 four months in the year. Steamboats I am speaking of; ordinary small 
 tows. 
 
 Q. Are coal convoys ever injured by going around ; by breaking up 
 and losing the boats? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; often. 
 
 Q. They are often lost. 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; on the rocks. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. Can you give us the number of steamboats, barges, &c, which 
 passed the locks last year ; I mean the number of vessels ? 
 A. I can from our books. 
 Q. Is there any record ? 
 A. O, yes ; we keep a record of everything. 
 Q. There is a report I 
 A. Yes, sir ; of every boat that goes through. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 Q. That record shows tonnage as well as number of boats ? 
 36 ts 
 
562 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. It shows the measurement of those boats and barges of 
 which I have been speaking, all which have custom-house papers. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. How long does it ordinarily take to pass a steamer through one 
 
 ° A.' Through the new canal it takes her about an hour. There are only 
 two locks in the new canal, except the guard-lock, and that is on a level 
 with the second pair of gates. t. «, j. 
 
 Q. The passage through the two miles of canal and through the two 
 locks occupies, you say, about an hour ? 
 
 A. It takes nearly two hours. 
 
 Q. About half an hour to each lock ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; the lock has to be filled with water, and then the open- 
 ing of the gates, &c, consumes about an hour. 
 By Mr. Gonkling : 
 
 Q. What is the measurement of these locks. 
 
 A. What we should term the length is 370 feet from heel-post to heel- 
 post ; but then the lock runs in that direction, so that it would make 
 them about 335 feet. 
 
 Q. Whose money built this canal originally. 
 
 A. The money of commerce. Money that we collected by tolls built, 
 the canals. 
 
 Q. The State of Kentucky put no money in it originally 1 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. But the private corporation was chartered and issued bonds, and 
 the money realized on those bonds created this work ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; this last improvement. The other was a stock company. 
 
 Q. How was the original work constructed ? 
 
 A. That was a stock company, and the government was a stockholder 
 just the same as an individual. 
 
 Q. And the money subscribed by the stockholders built that 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And what came afterwards was done with the avails of bonds 
 issued and sold ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; we had over $200,000 revenue to commence with in 
 money that was on hand. 
 
 Q. The earnings of the canal ! 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the tolls. The tolls then were reduced to 25 cents a ton. 
 We reduced the tolls when all the stock was paid out, but the five 
 shares, to 25 a ton from 50 cents. Mr. Guthrie was Secretary of the 
 Treasury, and he asked that we do that. We thought that the Govern- 
 ment would take hold of it. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Are your charges uniform ? Do all boats pay exactly alike ? 
 
 A. That is what we try to do; to have it as near alike as we can 
 make it. 
 
 Q. Does each boat pay as it passes through ? 
 
 A. It is customary to pay at the locks as she goes through. We try 
 to make it as near equal on everything as we can. 
 
 Q. You have no yearly boats, passing backwards and forwards, and 
 paying in that way? 
 
 A. No, sir; nothing of that sort. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 563 
 
 Examination of A. O. Brannin, chairman of sub- committee of board 
 of trade : 
 
 Mr. Brannin. Mr. Chairman : As a member of the committee of the 
 board of trade, we desire to present to you some statistics as to the 
 commerce of Louisville, its imports and exports. The short time which 
 we have had to prepare our report has prevented us from discussing or 
 presenting to the committee any remedy than simply the figures of our 
 imports and exports. Our statistics kept by our board of trade have 
 not been separated — that is, the river and the railroad — and we are un- 
 able to present them to you except in an aggregate shape; 
 
 It is proper to remark here that we have no printed statistics since 
 1869 and 1870, and on account of the absence of the secretary of the 
 board of trade to-day, we were unable to get at the records, so as to 
 give the imports and exports since that time. 
 
 The committee now present this report and will ask of you to make 
 a supplementary report hereafter, addressed to you through the mail, 
 making it more full. 
 
 Mr. Conkling. Do you couple two years, or do you speak of one 
 year ? 
 
 Mr. Brannin. It is the calculation of 1869, ending on the 31st March, 
 1870. 
 
 Imports and exports of the city of Louisville, and the commerce and trade in some of the lead- 
 ing articles, for the years 1869-'70. 
 
 BY RAIL AND RIVER. 
 
 Total imports $250,176,000 00 
 
 Total exports , 174,320,730 00 
 
 SOME OF THE PRINCIPAL ARTICLES. 
 
 Imports. Exports. 
 
 Cotton, bales 151,635 • 150,407 
 
 Coal, bushels 25,600,000 
 
 Salt, barrels. 334,694 316,242 
 
 Tobacco, hogsheads 49,048 43,139 
 
 Tobacco, boxes .., 31,208 74,231 
 
 Iron and steel, pieces and bundles 215,805 371,862 
 
 Pig-iron, tons 28,828 
 
 "Whisky, barrels .- 98,876 101,758 
 
 Bagging, pieces 64,530 69,086 
 
 Cement, barrels 50,472 206,086 
 
 Lumber, feet ... 13,275,876 4,112,537 
 
 Dry goods, &c, packages ... 443, 738 707, 188 
 
 Pork, tierces 1,891,100 131,216 
 
 Pork, barrels 5,672 38,831 
 
 Bacon, tierces '. 5,305 19,345 
 
 Bacon, casks , 14,914 42,556 
 
 Flour, barrels - 126,128 117,787 
 
 Furniture, -packages 69,407 177,344 
 
 Tonnage, built.. 10,673.10 
 
 Value of manufactured products $82,000,000 00 
 
 Capital invested in manufactories , $31,650,000 00 
 
 Steamboats and tow-boats, arrivals , 3,982 
 
 departures 3,995 
 
 In remarking to you upon this question, as I have said to you before, 
 the exports and imports are made in the aggregate, including both the 
 receipts by rail and by river. 
 
 I see by a reference to the Cincinnati papers to-day that the reports 
 there made, the exports and imports by river, show that Cincinnati re- 
 
564 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 ceived 117,000,000, while they put Louisville at 15,000,000 and they go 
 on and continue the report, and say that the little town of Smithfaeld 
 receives 20,000,000. We think they have made a blunder there. We 
 cannot conceive a state of things by which a little town of that kmd 
 receives 20,000,000 of imports and exports by river, while Louisville 
 simply receives 15,000,000. I myself think it may be a misprint. 
 
 1 merely refer to it, and call the attention of the committee to the fact, 
 believing that it must be a misprint, and is not probably a true state- 
 ment of the case. We think it fair to presume, while we have not kept 
 a separate table of the receipts by river and the receipts by rail, that 
 about one-third would be a fair amount of receipts by river of our ex- 
 ports and imports— that is, the receipts and shipments. The receipts 
 implying the imports, of course, and the shipments the exports. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What are the principal manufactures here 1 
 
 A. We manufacture a large. amount of iron; we manufacture a 
 very large amount of tobacco ; and we manufacture a large amount of 
 furniture. Our manufacturing interest has increased very rapidly. 
 
 Q. Where are your iron-ores procured ? 
 
 A. Some from Tennessee and some from Kentucky. 
 
 Q. By rail or water ? 
 
 A. Both ways. We get some from Alabama by rail. 
 
 Q. Can you give us the railroad and water charges on iron and iron- 
 ores 1 
 
 A. No, sir. I am really not able to do that. It may be that by to- 
 morrow we can supply you. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. What is the banking capital of the city ? 
 ' A. I don't know that I could answer that correctly without looking 
 at the tables. I should think about eight and a half millions, without 
 referring accurately to figures. 
 
 Mr. Speed. It is 12,000,000. 
 
 Mr. Davis. Your banks have not suspended paying currency since 
 the late trouble. 
 
 The Witness. No, sir ; but a few of them. The German banks sus- 
 pended, but they are all in line now, and moving along in their regular 
 business. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Beading from the list of exports and imports, you remarked 
 parenthetically about the tobacco that was all sold here and shipped 
 to other points. 
 
 A. I will say that I remarked of the 49,000 hogsheads received, about 
 40,000 hogsheads were absolutely sold in our market. The great bulk 
 of our tobacco goes by rail from here to Cincinnati and it is transmitted 
 by rail there. 
 
 Q. I wish to ask you whether you meant to make that an exceptional 
 case in your exports and imports, or do you mean to say that there are 
 other articles which come in here, passing through the city, that come 
 under the head of imports and exports, just as that tobacco might have 
 gone % 
 
 A. Do you mean to ask me if there are other articles in the same cate- 
 gory with the tobacco ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir ; under that class. 
 
 A. No, sir ; I do not know of others. We are a large receiving-market 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 565 
 
 for tobacco for consumption and for its sale. At all of our warehouses 
 it is sold. It is sold at public auction. I believe we have some seven 
 warehouses in the city of Louisville which receive tobacco. It is sent 
 here and sold to speculators, or for export out of the country. That is, 
 shipped by boat from here to Cincinnati frequently, and there it is 
 transferred by rail through to New York. 
 
 Q. 1 understand that you prepare a considerable amount of cement. 
 You read out an item there of cement barrels, forty-odd thousand. Did 
 you mean cement barrels or barrels of cement ? 
 
 A. Barrels of cement. We are large producers of cement. I should 
 observe upon that point that since 1869 aud 1870 the production of ce- 
 ment has increased over 50 per cent. Mr. Speed, who has deposed be- 
 fore you to-night, is the president of one of the largest companies that 
 we have. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do you import wheat, corn, or flour now to any considerable 
 extent? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we import a good deal of flour. 
 
 Q. Do you export it ? 
 
 A. Not much. We do export a good deal, that is true — nearly equiv- 
 alent to our imports — probably fifteen to twenty thousand barrels this 
 season, I think, as the report shows. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 . Q. Are articles arriving by rail and transferred from one road to 
 another included in your exports and imports ? 
 
 A. They are. 
 
 Q. But not arriving and passing through without being handled ? 
 
 A. No, sir. They are handled and transferred by cartage, &c, and 
 go through our city. 
 
 Q. It is only that portion of it which is spoken of ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How about cotton coming from the South and passing through, is 
 it included % 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it is included in our exports and imports. We are not 
 a cotton market, and sell but very little cotton. All western cities are 
 very small receivers of cotton for sale. 
 
 Q. Does cotton, to any extent, arrive here by rail from the South and 
 go on by water ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the bulk of it goes on by water from here to Cincinnati. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. It comes by rail and goes on by water ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 The committee here adjourned. 
 
 Wednesday, October 29, 1873. 
 The committee met. 
 
 Examination of Captain Adams, United States Engineers, continued. 
 
 Mr. Adams. In pursuance of your request, I furnish a c6py of the 
 act of last winter contained in the Army orders, which reads as fol- 
 lows: 
 
 For completing the Louisville and Portland Canal, one hundred thousand dollars ; 
 and the Secretary of the Treasury is authorized and directed to assume, on hehalf of 
 
566 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 the United States, the control and management of the said canal i» J^fg^^ 
 the terms of the joint resolution of the legislature of the S'ate of Kentucky, ap^oveu 
 J arch twenty-eighth, eighteen hundred and seventy-two, at such tune and m such man 
 ner as in his judgment the interests of the United States, and the co ™ m , e ^ e T ™^ 
 may r^uire ; and the sum of money necessary to enable the Secretary of the Treasury 
 to carry this provision into effect is hereby appropriated : Provided, That alter the 
 United States shall assume control of said canal, the tolls thereon ^ex^ajTOV&ea. 
 by steam shall be reduced to twenty-five cents per ton, and on all other vessels m pro- 
 portion. 
 
 Also decision of Judge Miller in the case of the United States vs. 
 The Louisville and Portland Canal : 
 
 The United States vs. The Louisville and Portland Canal Company 
 
 Mr. Justice Miller : 
 
 Upon a bill in chancery directed to the judges of the circuit court of the United 
 States for the district of Kentucky, an application is made to me, at Long Branch, in 
 the State of New Jersey, to enjoin the Louisville and Portland Canal Company from 
 interfering- with the engineer officers of the United States, and the persons with whom 
 they have contracted for the work of making certain repairs and improvements in said 
 canal, under authority of an act of Congress appropriating money for that purpose, 
 approved June 10, A. D. 1872. An affidavit of the attorney of the United States ac- 
 companies the application, which shows that the judge of the district court for that 
 district, the judge of the circuit court of that circuit, and the judge of the Supreme 
 Court allotted to that circuit, are all absent from and without the district and circuit. 
 I am of opinion, therefore, that, notwithstanding the provisions of the seventh section 
 of the act to further the administration of justice, approved June 1, 1872, 1 have juris- 
 diction to hear the motion, and that it is my duty to do so. 
 
 The language of the act under which the agents of the Government are proceeding 
 is important, and is found verbatim as follows in the act " making appropriations for 
 the repair, preservation, and completion of certain public works on rivers and harbors, 
 and for other purposes :" " For the continuiug the work on the canal at the falls of the 
 Ohio River, three hundred thousand dollars. And the Secretary of War is hereby 
 directed to report to Congress, at its next session, or sooner, if practicable, the con- 
 dition of said canal and the provisions necessary to relieve the same from incumbrances 
 with a view to such legislation as will render the same free to commerce at the earliest 
 practicable period, subject only to such tolls as may be necessary for the superintend- 
 ence and repair thereof, which shall not, after the passage of this act, exceed five cents 
 per ton." 
 
 A brief reference to the history of this canal and its relation to the Government of 
 the United States is essential to an understanding of the matter presented now for 
 consideration. 
 
 By an act of the Kentucky legislature of January 12, 1825, a corporation was char- 
 tered by the name of the Louisville and Portland Canal Company, to construct a canal 
 around the falls of the Ohio River, with a capital stock of six hundred thousand dol- 
 lars, divided into shares of one hundred dollars each, with the right to levy tolls on 
 vessels passing through the canal. By subsequent statutes the capital was increased 
 to ten thousand shares, and the United States, under acts of Congress, became the 
 owner of twenty-nine hundred and ten of said shares. The canal was constructed, 
 and has ever since been in successful and profitable operation ; and the tolls collected 
 under the limit of the charter granted by the State yielded such a revenue beyond 
 what was necessary to keep the canal in repair, that, by the joint legislation of the 
 State and the United States, and by the consent of the individual corporators, a plan 
 was adopted and entered upon to make the canal free to the uses of commerce, except 
 so far as might be necessary to keep it in repair. This plan was inaugurated by an 
 act of the Kentucky legislature, passed in 1842, the provisions of which were accepted 
 by the stockholders, including the United States. Its essential features were that the 
 surplus revenues of the corporation should be used to buy up all the stock held by 
 others than the United States, and that when this should have been accomplished the 
 canal should be transferred to the control of the Government for the use of the pub- 
 lic, subject only to such tolls as might be necessary for its superintendence and repair. 
 This plan was so far carried out that, in the year 1855, aU the shares other than those 
 held by the United States had been purchased in, except five shares left purposelv in 
 the hands of as many individuals, to qualify them to hold office as directors of the 
 corporation. 
 
 But while this process of extinguishing the individual shares had been goin<r on it 
 became clear that the demands of commerce required an enlargement of the canal and 
 a change m the place of its lower outlet, which could only be made by an additional or 
 
TKANSPOKTATIOU TO THE SEABOARD. 567 
 
 branch canal. The successful use of the tolls in buying in the shares of private stock- 
 holders pointed at once to the means of making this increase in the capacity of the 
 canal without burdening either the State or Federal Government, and by statute of the 
 Kentucky legislature in 1857, and joint resolution of the two Houses of Congress of 
 1860, the canal company was authorized to do this work, and to borrow money for 
 that purpose, and pledge the faith of the company and its tolls or revenues on' the 
 money so borrowed. The corporation accordingly issued its bonds for $1,600,000, se- 
 cured by a mortgage on the canal, its franchises and its tolls' and revenues, and pro- 
 ceeded to expend the sum realized on these bonds in the enlargement and improvement 
 of the canal. It was found, however, that when this money was all expended, the 
 canal was still unfinished ; and the Congress of the United States, in the year 1868, 
 commenced a series of appropriations for the purpose of completing the work, which has 
 been continued until the present time. Over $900,000 have thus been appropriated 
 and expended under the control and direction of officers of the Government, and the 
 appropriation of 1872, already referred to, was in continuation of this work. 
 
 During this time the president and directors of the Portland Canal Company and 
 the officers of the United States seem to have acted in harmony, the corporation col- 
 lecting the tolls and paying for and superintending the temporary repairs. They have 
 also paid the interest on the debt, and redeemed or bought in about half a million in 
 amount of the bonds. This harmony would probably have continued but for the 
 clause in the present act of appropriation, that "after the passage of this 'act the 
 tolls should not exceed five cents per ton." It is the first time that Congress has at- 
 tempted to regulate or limit the tolls to be collected of vessels using the canal. The 
 rate thus limited would not produce enough to make the ordinary and necessary re- 
 pairs and pay for the superintendence of the canal. It would leave the interest on 
 the bonds unpaid and largely impair, if not destroy, the security of the bondholder 
 for the payment of the principal. 
 
 The president and directors of the company construe the act as appropriating the 
 money on the condition that the tolls shall be limited to five cents per ton, and they 
 say that an acceptance of the appropriation would be an implied consent to this limit- 
 ation. They, therefore, notified the officer in charge that they refused to accept 
 the appropriation. 
 
 That officer, however, proceeded to let the work and commence operations, and the' 
 corporation interferes by physical force to prevent it, and I am now asked by the bill 
 before me, filed in behalf of the United States, to enjoin the corporation from this in- 
 terference. 
 
 That officers of the canal company maintain, first, that the corporation is the legal 
 owner of the canal, and that neither the Government of the United States nor any one 
 else has the fight to assume such control of its property as the action of the engineer 
 officer seeks to do without the consent of the directors of the company ; and second, 
 that a due regard to their duty to the bondholder and other creditors of the corpora- 
 tion forbids them from giving either express consent, or such consent as inaction would 
 imply to the assumption of the United States to reduce the tolls found in the appro- 
 priation act. 
 
 The United States, by its counsel, on the other hand, maintains that since the year 
 1855 the corporation has had no existence as such, or, if it has any existence, is merely 
 a nominal one as the agent of the Government for whose sole use it is kept alive ; and 
 that as the Government owns practically all the stock, it has and should have the 
 right to control the use and direct the changes and improvements in the canal. This 
 view is supposed to receive additional force from the powers and duties of the National 
 Government in regard to the navigable waters of the United States. 
 
 The first, and perhaps the most important, question to be determined is the relation 
 of the corporation and its officers to the possession and control of the canal. 
 
 The proposition of the Government counsel is based upon the idea that when, under 
 the act of 1842, all the private stock had been bought, the Government became, with- 
 out other action, the owner and entitled to the possession dnd control of the canal, 
 and that both by operation of that statute and the necessity of the case the corpora- 
 tion ceased to have an existence, or at least to have any right or title to the canal ; 
 and this argument is made stronger, in the opinion of counsel, by the circumstance 
 that at that time, to wit, on the 31st day of January, 1855, by a report to the Secre- 
 tary of the Treasury, the directors advised him of the completion of the purchase of 
 private stock, and the readiness of the corporation to transfer the custody of the canaL 
 to the United States as soon as the Department was prepared to receive it. But it 
 does not appear that the Department was ready to receive the transfer. Certainly no 
 formal act, either of Congress or of the Department, accepting this transfer or acknowl- 
 edging the obligations on which alone it was to be so transferred, namely : To hold it for 
 use of the public, free of toll, except so much as might be necessary for its superintend- 
 ence and repair, is shown or claimed, On the contrary, iu reply to the notification of 
 the company, the Secretary requested them to continue their organization by retaining 
 
568 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 a share of stock, for each director to maintain his eligibility as such, and to nianag B 
 the affairs of the canal as heretofore. . . „ffir>«>™ to thn 
 
 Bnt whatever donbt may exist as to- the prec.se relations of these officers to the 
 work at that time is removed by the subsequent act of 1857, of the State legislature, 
 and the joint resolution of Congress of 1860. „„t- an A an fl on 
 
 -These have already been referred to as authorizing the company to extend and en- 
 . large the canal, and to contract a debt for that purpose; but as the language of ^ the 
 ioift resolution of Congress approved May 24, 1860, seems to me to be conclusive of 
 the continued existence^ of the corporation, I will give its precise Jfrms. It was re- 
 solved, " That the president and directors of the Louisville and Portland Canal Com- 
 pany be and they are hereby authorized, with the revenues and credits of the com- 
 pany, to enlarge the said canal and to construct a branch canal from a suitable point 
 on the south side of the present canal to a point in the Ohio River, opposite Sand 
 Island, sufficient to pass the largest class of vessels navigating the Ohio River. The 
 resolution had two provisions, one protecting the United States from liability for the 
 debt so incurred, and the other declaring that when the work was completed and paid 
 .for no more tolls should afterward be collected than were necessary to keep it in repair 
 and pay for its superintendence and management. 
 
 This resolution, beyond all controversy, clearly recognizes three facts of important 
 hearing on the matter in hand : 1. The existence of the corporation called the Louis- 
 ville and Portland Canal Company. 2. That it had revenues and credits which might 
 be sufficient to enable it to raise means for this large and expensive work. 3. That it 
 had the right, or it was then given, so far as the United States could give it, to use 
 those credits and revenues for that purpose. 
 
 It is inconceivable that this company had aDy other revenue than the tolls from the 
 canal, or any other credit than that which arose from the right to these tolls and the 
 ownership or control of the canal. . 
 
 To me it seems that this is conclusive of existence of the corporation and of its right 
 to use and control the canal and its revenues so far as was necessary for the purpose 
 contemplated by the act of the Kentucky legislature, and the joint resolution of the 
 two houses of Congress. 
 
 But while these considerations prove the continued existence of the corporation, the 
 validity of the contract by which they pledged the canal and its revenues for the 
 money borrowed for its extension, and its duty to secure and protect this revenue, and 
 to do all that may lawfully be done to prevent its destruction or diversion from that 
 purpose, it is still true that the directors of this corporation occupy a very peculiar 
 position, and one widely different from the directors of railroads, insurance companies, 
 and other corporations for private gain. The United States is the only stockholder of 
 this corporation. The directors have really no personal interest in the corporation or 
 its property. They are, to all purposes, what equity calls trustees without an interest, 
 the depositaries of a naked trust. For whom do they hold this trust, and for whose 
 benefit must they exercise it ? This inquiry, though lying at the foundation of the 
 question to be solved here, is, fortunately, not a difficult one. There are three parties 
 interested deeply in this trust, and in the manner in which its duties shall be dis- 
 charged, which I name in the order of the superiority of their claims rather than their 
 importance : 
 
 1. The holders of the bonds secured by the mortgage authorized and placed under a 
 twofold legislative sanction, by the legislature of Kentucky and the Congress of the 
 United States. 2. The United States, the holder of all the stock in the corporation, 
 expending a million of dollars besides for the benefit of the canal ; and 3. The publio, 
 the community, to whose use, free of all charges but those necessary to keep it in oper- 
 ation, it has been solemnly dedicated by the legislature of Kentucky, by the Congress 
 of the United States, and by the action of the corporation itself, as well as by all the 
 acts of all these parties from 1842 to the present time, so soon as the enlargement is 
 completed and the debt created thereby discharged. 
 
 As regards the first of these I have no hesitation in expressing my entire conviction 
 that the bondholders have a lien upon the revenue of the canal, and a right to insist 
 that the. corporation shall protect those revenues to the extent necessary to make 
 entirely safe the payment of their debt and its accruing interest ; and that until that 
 debt is paid, or the mortgage satisfied or otherwise discharged, with the consent of 
 these bondholders, this right of theirs remains, with the corresponding duty of the 
 directors of the corporation. But the right of these creditors is limited to this and. 
 so long as their security is unimpaired, it is the duty of the directors to advance the 
 other interests I have mentioned, for which they are trustees. The interests of the 
 United States and of the public are, for present purposes, identical. The Government 
 has,iu all its actions, shown its desire and its intent that at the earliest moment the 
 public use of the canal should be freed from all burdens save thoso necessary for its 
 repairs and management, and the very act which h^s given rise to the preseut opposi- 
 tion of the president and directors is wholly in the interest of the public, and designed 
 to hasten the end long contemplated by all parties. a 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 569 
 
 Now, if the act of the United States in completing the enlargement of the eanal is 
 an act for the benefit of all these parties, the bondholders inclusive, the resistance of 
 the president and directors is an act in detriment of their trust, injurious to all the 
 interests confided to them, and a mere arbitrary exercise of power which should be 
 restrained. If, on the other hand, any one of these interests would be seriously pre- 
 judiced, they should not be disturbed in the exercise of a reasonable discretion in the 
 protection of that interest./ 
 
 That the work itself, which is being done by the Government, is a useful and a 
 necessary work for the public good, and for that of the United States as a stockholder 
 and as the representative of the public, is undeniable ; that it also adds to the value of 
 the security of the bondholder, and is to that extent in his interest, is equally clear. 
 
 But in regard to the latter, if, as is alleged by defendant, the work is being con- 
 structed in a manner which so far obstructs the use of the canal as will endanger the 
 revenue from which their interest is to be paid, or if, as the trustees seem to believe, 
 the work, when completed under the present act of Congress, will extinguish the 
 right of the corporation to collect sufficient toll to pay both principal and interest of 
 their debt, then the work should not be done, for these rights are paramount. 
 
 In regard to the manner of doing the work, the affidavits submitted satisfy me that 
 no such serious obstruction to the use of the canal, or to the repairs which the directors 
 wish to make, will result from the work as that claimed by the defendant ; none which 
 should be set up for a moment in comparison with the great value to all parties of the 
 vigorous prosecution and early completion of the work of extension and enlargement. 
 
 But I am satisfied that the president and directors are honest in their belief that an 
 acquiescence on their part in the expenditure of this appropriation on the canal would 
 bind them legally, as an acknowledgment of the Government limitation of the toll, an 
 acknowledgment which would be a violation of their official duty. Of this result they 
 will be rid if their action is controlled by a competent court against their protest. To 
 refrain from disturbing the contractors and engineer in expending this money, when 
 their hands are tied by an injunction, raises no presumption of acquiescence in the 
 claim of the Government to reduce the toll to a minimum. 
 
 Should the court so restrain, or, if they are right in their construction of the statute, 
 should they be permitted to resist congressional interference in the matter ? 
 
 This leads me to a remark or two on the construction of the appropriation act : 
 
 The first sentence is a distinct and clear appropriation of $300,000 for the continu- 
 ance of the work in which the Government had for several years been engaged, and on 
 which it had spent, aside from its stock, near a million of dollars. The subsequent 
 sentence directs the Secretary of War to report to Congress what legislation is neces- 
 sary to relieve the canal of incumbrance, so that it may be free from all other toll than 
 what is required for its management and repair; and this sentence declares that such 
 toll, after the passage of this act, shall not exceed five cents per ton. 
 
 That the appropriation is absolute, and independent of the clause concerning toll, I 
 have no doubt. It might as well be argued that it was dependent on the report of the 
 Secretary of War. Whether, therefore, the toll be reduced or not, the appropriation 
 remains, and should he carried into effect. 
 
 When we consider that the next sentence recognizes the incumbrance of the canal, 
 no doubt meaning the one in favor of the bondholders, so often mentioned in this opin- 
 ion, and directs our inquiry as to what action by Congress is necessary to remove it, I 
 can hardly believe that in the same sentence it was intended to destroy the essentia] 
 thing on which that incumbrance rested, namely, the tolls. The argument is, there- 
 fore, not without force, that Congress meant, when they said such tolls should not 
 exceed five cents per ton after the passage of this act, such act as they contemplated 
 in future to pass to satisfy or remove that incumbrance. 
 
 It must be confessed that the language is not after this construction, and that in 
 their caution the directors might well have supposed that Congress intended to limit 
 the tolls at once to five cents per ton. 
 
 If this construction of the statute be correct, then I have no hesitation in saying 
 that that part of it which so limits the tolls is void, for the plain reason that it is a 
 legislative attempt to destroy vested rights, and a taking of private property for pub- 
 lic use without due compensation. 
 
 I think I have shown that the prosecution of this work is for the benefit and advan- 
 tage of all concerned ; that it does not seriously interfere with the ordinary use of the 
 canal, and that the accomplishment of the work will neither confer on Congress the 
 right to regulate the toll nor validate the attempt already made to do so, if Congress 
 really intended to make such an attempt. 
 
 Under these circumstances I have no hesitation in controlling the president and 
 directors of the canal company in the exercise of the great trust committed to them, 
 so far as may be necessary to permit the work to go on ; and in exercising this control 
 I feel satisfied that I am relieving- them from an embarrassment and responsibility 
 which they will gladly rest on the shoulders of the court. The injunction will bo 
 granted. 
 
570 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 When I was informed last evening that you desired my presence here 
 no mention was made that there was to be a meetmg for the > P«H*»| f 
 transacting business, and I had no idea that there .would I be > much before 
 to-day : hence the absence of statistical and positive information in mj 
 evidence then given. To-day's meeting affords an opportunity ot my 
 bringing some additional matters to your notice. 
 
 COST OF CANAL AND DAM IMPROVEMENTS. 
 
 The money expended on the improvement of the falls of the Ohio, up to 
 October 31, 1873, is $1,400,719.72. The last month's estimate under this 
 head is not made up, owing to the pay-roll for the month of October not 
 being entirely completed ; the above figures may, therefore, be slightly 
 in error. The cost of constructing the two dams, the one at the head 
 and the other at the foot of the falls, as weU as the rock excavation, as 
 far as money has been expended on that work at the two ends of the 
 canal, is included in this figure. The cost, respectively, of the upper 
 and lower dams is about $100,000 and $59,924, which would make the 
 total amount expended on the canal proper, including money expended 
 on excavation, about $1,241,795.12. The following work has been done: 
 
 Cubic yards. 
 
 Earth excavated 235,204 
 
 Eock excavated 124, 553 
 
 Old wall removed 14, 706 
 
 Paving removed 6, 713 
 
 Masonry 47, 724 
 
 Filling behind , 8, 764 
 
 Riprap 11, 922 
 
 Oast iron, 163,719 pounds; wrought iron, 71,716 pounds ; pine tim- 
 ber, 46,361 feet ; oak, 5,009 feet. None of the money has been dis- 
 bursed by me. The accounts are kept in the office of General Weitzel 
 in Detroit, which, together with the shortness of the time, prevents me 
 from giving you an exhibit in detail. At the office in Detroit are also 
 to be found the principal official records of the Louisville and Portland 
 Canal improvement, a fact which stands in the way of placing copies 
 before you. Such as I have been able to get together, and with which I 
 am familiar, during my short connection with the work, I respectfully 
 . submit. 
 
 RELATIONS OF THE GOVERNMENT ENGINEERS TO THE BOARD. 
 
 To explain fully the relation of the United States engineers to the 
 officers of the board ofMirectors of the canal, including the question of 
 the injunction, it is necessary to state that General Weitzel, acting in 
 the capacity of engineer for the Government, was directed May 11, 
 1867, to make a survey for a ship-canal around the falls of the Ohio, with 
 special instructions to make as early a report as possible. Under these 
 instructions in connection with his other duties, General Weitzel ad- 
 dressed a letter to Mr. James Guthrie, the then president of the canal, 
 asking upon what terms the canal company would be willing to yield 
 their trust. In answer to this letter, Mr. Guthrie wrote that as soon 
 as the canal was widened and the indebtedness assumed, (the wording 
 was not debts discharged; I make special mention of this fact for. reasons 
 that will appear further on ;) the directors would gladly give the control 
 of the canal over to the Government. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 571 
 
 Unfortunately this letter is among the file of letters in the office at 
 Detroit. Upon such an answer, and after estimates of the cost of an 
 entirely new canal on - the Indiana side of the river were made, Gen- 
 eral Weitzel reported in favor of the Government widening and assum- 
 ing charge of the canal already built, then not of sufficient capacity for 
 the accommodation of the larger class of steamboats navigating the 
 Ohio Eiver. Congress made appropriations of money from time to time 
 as was needed, which was expended under the engineering and direction 
 of General Weitzel, without any interruption on the part of the board 
 of directors until the first clause appeared in the act making the ap- 
 propriation looking to a transfer taking place. The act of June 10, 
 1872, making appropriation for the repair, preservation, and completion 
 of certain public works on rivers and harbors, reads as follows : 
 
 "And the Secretary of War is hereby directed to report to Congress, 
 at_the next session, or sooner if practicable, the condition of said canal, 
 and the provisions necessary to relieve the same from incumbrance, 
 wi^h a view to such legislation as will render the same free to commerce 
 at the earliest practicable period, subject only to such tolls as may be 
 necessary for the superintendence and repair thereof, which shall not, 
 after the passage of this act, exceed five cents per ton." 
 
 Mr. James Speed, as attorney for the board of directors, saw in this 
 act danger to their trust being jeopardized, and advised the board not 
 to accept the $300,000 appropriation of that act, and to prevent the 
 money being expended threw obstacles in the way of the further pro- 
 gress of the work. All this correspondence upon the subject between 
 General Weitzel and the president of the board of directors appears in 
 his report to the Chief of Engineers, 1872, which was settled, as explained, 
 by the suing out of an injunction in July, 1872, and was decided before 
 Associate Justice Miller of the United States Supreme Court and 
 granted. The work since that interruption has progressed without fur' 
 ther obstacles being thrown in the way of prosecution. The work of en- 
 largement is now completed, and that of grading the slopes and com- 
 pleting the sastaining-walls nearly done, there being but a few days' 
 work tor the contractors,, Sheehan & Leehy, who have the contract for 
 completing the sustaining-wall and grading the slopes of the canal-bank, 
 and yet the control of the canal has not been turned over to the United 
 States Government. The reason for this, in my opinion, can be found 
 in the fact that there was a conflict of laws, as passed by Congress and 
 the Kentucky legislature, which prevented the Secretary of the Treas- 
 ury from assuming the control as contemplated in the last act of Con- 
 gress on the subject, the obstacles being placed in the resolution of the 
 Kentucky legislature. Congress, I assume, framed its act upon the 
 pledge of Mr. Guthrie's letter, and proposed to assume the obligations, 
 which did not accord with the act of the Kentucky legislature, an obsta- 
 cle to the transfer being purposely put in that act, which required that 
 the debt of the canal should be discharged. Here are the two acts in 
 question : 
 
 ACT OF THE KENTUCKY LEGISLATURE. 
 
 The resolution of the Kentucky legislature, which was approved 
 March 24, 1872, has several conditions, numbered from 1 to 6, the last 
 of which reads as follows : " That the Government of the United States 
 shall, before such surrender, discharge all the debts due by said canal 
 company and purchase the stock of said directors." 
 
572 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. _ 
 
 ACT OE CONGRESS, MARCH, 1873. 
 
 "And the Secretary of the Treasury is authorized and directed to 
 assume on behalf of the United States the control and management of 
 said canal, in conformity with the terms of the Joint resolution ol the 
 legislature of the State of Kentucky, approved March 28, 1872, at such 
 time and in such manner as in his judgment the interest of the United 
 States and the commerce thereof may require, and the sum ot money 
 necessary to enable the Secretary of the Treasury to carry this provis- 
 ion into effect is hereby appropriated : Provided, That after the United 
 , States shall assume control of this canal the tolls thereon on vessels 
 propelled by steam shall be reduced to twenty-five cents per ton, and 
 on all other vessels in proportion." 
 
 Q. Will you have completed all your work this fall upon the entire 
 canal 1 
 
 A. There is additional work to be done on the improvement of the 
 falls of the Ohio. 
 Q. I am speaking of the canal proper. 
 A. The canal proper will be completed this fall. 
 Q. There has been no appropriation made for the falls proper, which 
 you speak of, has there ? 
 
 A. There has been an appropriation of a hundred thousand dollars 
 made for the improvement of the canal, but which is not being expend- 
 ed on the canal proper. It is being expended on the dam at the head 
 of the canal and on the rock excavation at the head and at the outlet of 
 the canal. The widening of the canal, however, is virtually done, and 
 has been done for some time. The widening consisted in excavating 
 the rock to a width of between 80 and 90 feet. After that the bank 
 was sustained by the construction of a sustaining-wall, which might not 
 properly be included under the term widening. The widening was done 
 last fall a year ago. Of course there are incidental expenditures which 
 might go on for some time. We will sod the slopes and plant, trees 
 along the slopes. But that is merely an ornamentation of the improve- 
 ment which might go on from year to year and never be at an end. 
 
 Q. Has General Weitzel asked additional appropriations this year for 
 the canal? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; he has asked an additional appropriation of a hundred 
 thousand dollars. That was not, however, for the canal, but for the 
 falls. I believe it is his intention to expend it principally in the im- 
 provement of the Indiana chute. 
 
 Isaac L. Hyatt examined by the chairman. 
 
 Question. Please state your full name. 
 
 Answer. Isaac L. Hyatt. 
 
 Q. Are you engaged in the coal-trade ? 
 
 A. lam; I have been engaged in the coal-trade about thirty years. 
 
 Q. From whence do you get your supply of coal ? 
 
 A. The principal supply is from Pittsburgh, on the Monongahela 
 Eiver. 
 
 Q. State the transportation-charges on it, usually, from Pittsburgh 
 here ? 
 
 A. Prom Pittsburgh here the tow-boats and barges, which require a 
 large capital, bring coal from 2 to 3 cents a bushel. 
 
 Q. Do you ship any by rail ? 
 
 A. Yery rarely. It is a, rare thing that we get any by rail, unless it 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 573 
 
 is 40 or 50 cents a bushel and we are entirely out. We never bring any 
 by rail. It is all brought now by tug-boats. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of the relative charges on freight to this 
 point by rail and by water 1 
 
 A. No, sir ; I do not know anything about the rail charges at all. 
 I know they have brought coke here from Pittsburgh at about 8 cents a 
 bushel. I never knew of any coal. 
 
 Q. That is by rail ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I never knew them to bring any coal in that way. 
 
 Q. Is your supply of coal received here from Pittsburgh entirely H 
 
 A. It has been up to a year or two ago. For the last two or three 
 years we have developed coal-mines in the southern part of Kentucky, 
 and the Louisville and Paducah Eoad now brings about one-third of our 
 whole supply. 
 
 Q. Do you know what their charges are ? 
 
 A. They bring coal from eighty to one hundred and ten miles on the 
 road for 6 cents a bushel. 
 
 Q. What is the distance from here to Pittsburgh 1 
 
 A. By river, do you mean ? 
 
 Q. By river. 
 
 A. Six hundred miles. 
 
 Q. And they bring it for from 2 to 3 cents a bushel ? 
 
 A. A man who is regularly in the coal-trade can bring coal from the 
 mouth of the Monongahela Biver, which is slack-water to Louisville, and 
 return the barges that they bring it in for 3 cents. It has been towed 
 • here. They have towed a large amount of it up there in large floats, 
 but they have no market for it from here up, but for the lower market. 
 That coal is brought here at about 2 cents. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Would you not put the distance to Pittsburgh at six hundred and 
 fifty miles ? Tou said six hundred miles. 
 
 A. They used to call it six hundred and fifty miles, but there have 
 been some improvements in cutting off, which makes it now about six 
 hundred miles. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Are there any serious difficulties encountered by coal-barges on 
 the river % 
 
 A. By the obstructions on the river, do you mean ? 
 
 Q. Yes. 
 
 A. There are some. In running coal from Pittsburgh we always* 
 have to go on freshets — high water — 8, 10, or 15 feet — when the season 
 commences. We generally commence about this month. We generally 
 have a freshet there, sometimes every two weeks, sometimes every once 
 a month. Sometimes we would miss a month, and have water up to 
 about the 1st of June. 
 
 Q. How is it that one-third of your supply comes by rail at 6 or 7 
 cents a bushel, when you can bring it from Pittsburgh for 2 or 3 cents a 
 bushel % How do you account for that shipment by rail ? 
 
 A. In the first place the Pittsburgh coal is worth more than the coal 
 on this river — about 3 cents a bushel — for manufacturing ; in the next 
 place, Monongahela Biver companies there have a sort of monopoly of 
 the coal interest. For instance, they make immense profits on coal 
 though labor is high. The coal costs them generally now from 7 to 8 
 cents % 
 
 Q. At Pittsburgh 1 
 
574 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At the mines'? . , , , , 
 
 A. No, sir : delivered at Pittsburgh. Then the freights here and 
 back are about 3 cents. That makes coal cost them here about 11 
 cents. But, then, they have a large capital— for instance, to carry a 
 tow-boat and a set of barges to go regularly into the trade. A tow-boat 
 which has the capacity to bring down one hundred and fifty thousand 
 bushels of coal on a freshet requires a capital of about $75,000 to 
 $100,000. In running coal by barges, while the boats can bring but ten, 
 it requires thirty to make it a success, from the fact that they have to 
 have ten up there loading, ten here unloading, and ten on the way. For 
 instance, a boat brings down ten badges to Louisville. She takes ten 
 empty ones up, and the boat is not delayed here at all. All her lost 
 time is at Pittsburgh, waiting for the freshet. 
 
 By the Chaibman : 
 
 Q. The point I find difficult of understanding's why you should 
 bring it by rail at 6 or 7 cents when you can receive it from Pittsburgh 
 for from 2 to 3 cents. Why is it brought by rail at all, when it can be 
 brought here much cheaper by water ? 
 
 A. The reason for that is the superiority of the Pittsburgh coal over 
 this. It will command a better price. 
 
 By Mr. Conkxing : 
 
 Q. The Pittsburgh coal wilH 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then why should you give them more freight for other coal from' 
 another place ? 
 
 A. That is brought by the river. 
 
 Q. Why do you not get all your coal, if it is better, from Pittsburgh, 
 and bring it at a cheaper rate? 
 
 A. Pittsburgh has not been able to supply us at moderate prices. It 
 has been in the hands of the monopolists. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Does not the railroad reach the mines ? 
 
 A. The coal below is on the line of the railroad. 
 
 Q. And the coal is cheaper at these mines here than it is at Pitts- 
 burgh ? Is that what you mean ? 
 
 A. For instance, you take Pittsburgh proper and the coal is brought 
 down the Monongahela Eiver, and generally costs from 7£ to 8 cents. 
 •This other coal, when you start it from the mine, costs from 5 to 6 
 cents. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. On the car ? 
 
 The Witness. Delivered on the car ; then the freight is about 6 
 cents. The railroad companies say that is about cost. Louisville sub- 
 scribed very heavily to build that railroad, and they bring the coal 
 cheaper for the benefit of Louisville. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. If you add the cost of transportation to the price of coal in Pitts- 
 ., Ur8 ?y uld d0 . th t same on the coal, as you did in Kentucky, what is 
 the difference in the value of the coal in this market ? 
 
 A. Do yofi mean in the difference of the cost 1 Do you want the dif- 
 ference in the cost of the delivery ? 
 
 Q. The difference in the price here. Add the cost of transportation 
 to the cost ot the coal in Pittsburgh, and then add the cost of transpor- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 575 
 
 tation by rail aud the price of the coal at the mine together, and then 
 state what is the difference between the value of the coal in this market 
 — between the Pittsburgh coal and. this other coal ? 
 
 A. My experience in regard to that is this : You want to know the 
 difference. You want to know the difference in the quality of coal to 
 the consumer, or the difference in the cost. 
 
 Q. You have stated that the reason this coal was brought here by 
 rail, that costs about twice as much freight as the Pittsburgh coal, is 
 that it is a cheaper coal. What I want to get at is, how much cheaper 
 that coal is here, after you have added the cost of transportation, than 
 the Pittsburgh coal. 
 
 A. The Pittsburgh coal is the cheapest. 
 
 Q. Then the question recurs, why is it that you buy coal down here 
 and bring it in by rail 1 
 
 A. The reason is that coal comes into this market when the Pitts- 
 burgh coal is of a high price. For instance, we have to hold on to 
 Pittsburgh coal. Sometimes we get no receipts for four or six months. 
 That coal has to be kept here. The consequence is that it advances as 
 capitalists get it, and when it advances above what the cost of this 
 coal is coming here, and the difference in the value of it, they take that. 
 Then there are a, great many who buy it for the purpose of patroniz- 
 ing their own State, and they want to encourage them to open the 
 mines. In the next place Louisville has never been fully supplied with 
 Pittsburgh coal for the last five or six years. They cannot bring 
 enough. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. This is procured by rail on account of the scarcity of Pittsburgh 
 coal, owing to the want of transportation from Pittsburgh ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. If you had 6 feet of water in the Ohio Biver the year round could 
 you transport coal during the entire year? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but you could not transport it with the present arrange- 
 ments. They could transport coal all the time on 6 feet of water by 
 being prepared for it and having lighter tugs and lighter barges, mak- 
 ing more trips and bringing less coal. For instance, a tow-boat could 
 be run very successfully from here to Pittsburgh, regularly, with 6 feet 
 of water, with a capital of $40,000, and she would bring about 65,000 
 to 70,000 bushels a trip. They run more economically. 
 
 Q. Your opinion is, then, that if the Ohio was improved so that you 
 would have 6 feet of water the year round, that even in the summer 
 you would have an arrangement to bring coal 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; to bring coal the year round. 
 
 Q. Would that have the tendency to make coal cheaper in this mar- 
 ket? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. If we had 6 feet of water from here to the Pittsburgh 
 mines on the Monongahela Eiver I am satisfied that it would make a 
 difference upon an average of 5 cents a bushel, and also at Cincinnati 
 the same. It would be the same at Cincinnati as it would here. 
 
 Q. Do you use Kanawha coal here ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we use some, but there has been no large amount of it 
 brought here as yet. We have had, however, some of it here. 
 
 Q. What is the difference in value between that and Pittsburgh coal 1 
 in your market ? 
 
 A. Well, sir, we have made no difference at all, in some mines of the 
 
576 ' TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Kanawha. There are some two or three mines— say the Baymond City 
 and the Coalburg coal-bring the same price ; but at the same time it 
 is rather a fancy semi-cannel coal, which does not have that same 
 amount of black soot from it, and gentlemen who own fine houses want 
 to get shut of as much dirt as possible, and will buy this because it is 
 not so dirty as the Pittsburgh, for burning in grates. 
 
 Examination of Pinknet Varble : 
 
 Question. What is your business ? 
 
 Answer. Piloting on the falls and boating generally. 
 
 Q. State to the committee anything you may have to say with refer- 
 ence to obstructions or difficulties in the navigation of the river, and 
 remedies, if you have any. 
 
 A. Do you mean so far as the falls are concerned i 
 
 Q. Anything with reference to the navigation of the river. At what 
 stage of the water can you navigate the falls without going through 
 the canal 1 
 
 A. With steamboats we can navigate from 3 to 7 and 8 feet. We 
 hardly ever take any steamboats less than 3 feet. They are very light 
 boats. Ooal-boats and barges we cannot take in. They are generally 
 loaded from 6 to 8 feet. What we call a coal-boat is loaded from 7 to 8 
 feet, and a coal-barge from 5^ to 6 feet. We require to take a fleet of 
 coal-barges about 8£ feet drawing 6 feet ; the barges drawing 6 feet 
 we require about 8J feet. 
 
 Q. What rise at Cincinnati does a 3-foot rise on the falls here repre- 
 sent ? 
 
 A. There are now 22 feet there and 6J feet in our pass or dug chute. 
 But we only can take steamboats of less width than 40 feet ; the chan- 
 nel is 48 feet. We count about 3 to 1. Mne feet at Cincinnati would 
 be about 3 feet here. The river is wider here and requires about 3 feet 
 rise up there to one here. 
 
 Q. About what period each season can you pass over the falls ? 
 
 A. We are governed a good deal by the head- waters from the upper 
 rivers, and it commences about this time of the year. This is a little 
 early. It holds on up to about July and August. We don't have less 
 than 3 feet of water, I don't suppose, hardly ever, before about August 
 or July. We often take boats over in July and August. 
 
 Q. Then August, September, and October are the months in which 
 you are unable ? 
 
 A. September, October, and part of November is our low-water 
 season here. We scarcely ever have any rise here in September and 
 October. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Tou spoke of 3 feet of water ; that would not allow of coal-boats 
 passing 1 
 
 A. No, sir ; when there is 3 feet on the falls that is 5 feet in the ca- 
 nal, and we don't take anything over the falls unless it is a steamer of 
 light draught, or barges. 
 
 Q. How long during the year can you generally take convoys of coal 
 over; between .what periods? 
 
 A. An average of seven or eight months. 
 
 Q. When a coal convoy comes to the falls do you have to break it 
 up, or take it part over at a time, or all at a time 1 ? 
 
 A. That is owing to the state of the water. Since this bridge has 
 been built they have to break up, but before that, when we had 10 feet 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. • 577 
 
 and over we could take the whole fleet as much as they would hitch on 
 to the boat. But now the span is only 400 feet wide, and we can- 
 not take over about half the tow that they take below, but generally 
 can take all the tow that they bring from Pittsburgh here. They take 
 larger tows below here than they can fetch out from above. 
 
 Q. Is there any loss; many boats wrecked going over ;. and, if so, what 
 is the proportion per year ? 
 
 A. Indeed I could not tell you what proportion it would be very 
 well. We have very few lost on the falls. 
 
 By Mr. SHERMAN : 
 Q. Do you know the rate of insurance against loss ? 
 A. No, sir; I don't think there is any extra charge made for the 
 falls. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS: 
 
 Q. Do all boats that come down, including coal fleets, have to take 
 on a pilot ? 
 
 A. Mostly ; unless the water is very high. Sometimes they have 
 men who have been running for a long time, and they take their own 
 boats over. If it is anything like a close fit they always get a pilot. 
 
 Q. What charge is there for it 1 
 
 A. That is owing to the size of the boat and the size of the tow. 
 Steamboats run from $10 to $30, the 'larger size $30; that is, 1,600 to 
 2,000 ton boats. Tow-boats run from $20 to $40, owing to what they 
 have in tow. I have taken tow-boats over with as many asfifteen barges, 
 even since the bridge was there, but it is not considered safe. Before 
 the bridge was there we could take more. 
 
 Q. Do boats usually ascend when they can descend °? 
 
 A. No, sir ; there is no water for ascending boats until there gets 8£ 
 feet down stream. Then they begin to get water on this side, or on 
 what we call the Kentucky chute. Eight feet, and a half makes 4 feet 
 up this side. But there are some very powerful and well-handled boats 
 that bring up the other side. It is not a general thing. The main 
 current of the falls is down the other side, on what we call the Indiana 
 chute. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What is the length of time in passing the falls each way 1 
 
 A. We generally ha've to run up a short distance and get shape. 
 With a single steamboat we can go over and land at Portland in three- 
 quarters of an hour. The way we run it is about four miles. We have 
 to run up a piece. 
 
 Q. How many months in the year can you go up stream, over the 
 falls, with steamboats ? 
 
 A- I don't suppose it would average over four months. 
 
 Q. How many months in the year can you go lap with barges over the 
 fallsl 
 
 A. Up stream do you mean ? 
 
 Q. Tes, sir. 
 
 A. Whenever there is water up stream at all, we can bring barges up. 
 
 Q. You mean you can go up four months in the year ? » 
 
 A. Tes, sir ; they cannot tow full tows up ; they can break up the 
 tow and double the trip. 
 
 Q. Does it often happen that boats go down through the falls and 
 come through the canal back ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir; they come back through the canal. Our channel over 
 37 T S 
 
578 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. . 
 
 there is 48 feet wide. Until 1856 it was only 28 feet. They commenced 
 to build their boats larger and wider, and pilots came to the conclusion 
 here that they would go to work themselves and open the channel at 
 the head of the falls at the narrowest place. We went to work on our 
 own hook, and opened it to 48 feet. But Congress afterwards gave the 
 money back. They are now getting to tow so many barges that we find 
 it is not wide enough. 
 
 I took Mr. Adams over here the other day and showed him the diffi- 
 culty. It can be opened, by expending a very small amount of money, to 
 100 feet, which would allow a great many barges and boats to go over 
 that are now forced into the canal. No one wants to use the time of 
 going into the canal ; and, besides, at certain stages of the water there 
 is a good deal of risk in doing so. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. When the water is high ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. It could be opened or widened there, and certain reefs 
 blown out on the left of the chute, and could be made a hundred feet 
 wide. It only has to be blasted 12 inches deep. It is not a solid ledge. 
 It is in nigger-heads sticking up. It would add a great deal to the 
 navigation of the falls if that could be done. 
 
 Q. Is that the improvement which Captain Adams speaks of? 
 
 Captain Adams. That was the improvement that I mentioned. 
 
 The Witness. I took Captain Adams over there to give him an in- 
 sight as to what ought to be done. It could be done with very little 
 money. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. You mean the enlargement of that chute ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and it would be a very great advantage to steamers and 
 boats towing barges. 
 
 Captain Adams. By taking out the intervening ledge between two 
 narrow channels, the two could be united, and thereby made one chan- 
 nel of about a hundred feet in width. 
 
 Examination of Bobert H. Campbell. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. What is your business ? 
 
 Answer. 1 am connected with the Ohio and Mississippi Bailway, in 
 charge of their freight department. 
 
 Q. What are the termini of that road ? 
 
 A. Saint Louis and Cincinnati on one side, and Louisville here— 
 a branch. 
 
 Q. Please state to the committee the freight charges on that road for 
 fourth-class freight from here to Saint Louis. 
 
 A. Thirty-four cents'a hundred. 
 
 Q. What is the distance ? 
 
 A. Three hundred and twenty miles. 
 
 Q. What does that rate amount to per ton per mile ? 
 
 A. We take out for that price two transfers, one at Saint Louis and 
 one here. That leaves us net 24 cents a hundred, which would be less 
 than a cent a ton per mile ; about seven-eighths of a cent per ton tier 
 mile. , r 
 
 Q. That is on all heavy freight ? 
 
 A. On heavy fourth-class freight. 
 
 Q. What do you include as fourth-class freight 1 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SE ABOARD. 579 
 
 A. That embraces the general classification ; the usual classification 
 of that kind. 
 
 Q. Ores and grain ? 
 
 A. No, sir • iron-ores are carried cheaper. 
 
 Q. How much do you charge for iron-ores ? 
 
 A. We usually base our rates on about a cent a ton per mile, where 
 we are making our contracts going East, including the transfers. That 
 would make it a little more in that case. 
 
 Q. What difference do you make in your various classifications ; what 
 are your classifications, in other words ? 
 
 A. We have four classifications. We range from 75 down to 34, and 
 as low as 28 on specials. 
 
 Q. Tour classification is the same as those on the eastern roads, I be- 
 lieve ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir ; the same. 
 
 Q. What difference do you make between winter and summer freights ? 
 
 A. There is very little difference between here and Saint Louis — a 
 very small variation. On freights going East we make a difference. 
 
 Q. That is by way of Cincinnati ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. Tour charges are the same on the Cincinnati Line and the Saint 
 Louis Line ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir ; our rates of freight East are made up by a joint tariff of 
 the different lines. 
 
 Q. How do your freights compare with other railroad lines leading 
 into this city ? 
 
 A. Freights coming in, do you mean ? 
 
 Q. Freights either coming in or going out. How do they compare 
 with other railroads centering at this city ? 
 
 A. For the points we reach, we are holding an equal proportion. 
 
 Q. What is the name of the other road running to Saint Louis ? 
 
 A. The Jeffersonville Road, terminating at Indianapolis. 
 
 Q. Their charges are the same ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know what the charges are on the southern roads leading 
 to New Orleans and into the southern country ? 
 
 A. I have with me the tariffs of this line. I am not familiar with the 
 rates. I have also the tariffs of the lines from here. I have drawn a 
 comparison there for the months of October, 1871, 1872, and 1873. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. How long has your 34-cent rate been in existence ? . 
 
 A. Since the line has been opened ; for the last three years. It has 
 been a uniform rate for years. 
 
 Q. With no change, winter or summer % 
 
 A. Not unless we meet a special competition to cut it down, and then 
 for a f(?w cents only. That is the uniform rate. A variation will some- 
 times arise in freight contracts. 
 
 Q. How many miles out on your road do you go locally before you 
 come up to your through-rate ? 
 
 A. From Louisville, do you mean? 
 
 Q. Tes, sir. 
 
 A. We have a local tariff from here reaching all points. 
 
 Q. How many miles do you getout before you come up to your through- 
 rate? 
 
 A. Our through-rate does not govern our 'local rate at all. 
 
580 TRANSPORTATION TO .THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Q. I understand that, but that is not the question. I ask you how 
 many miles you go on your road before you get up to 34 cents local l 
 
 A. On our fourth class ? 
 
 Q. Tes, sir. . 
 
 •A. I don't think we reach it- at all until we get to Saint Louis. 
 
 Q. Do I understand you that you haul at the same rate locally as you 
 do through ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the per cent, difference— the average difference'? 
 
 A. There is no rule regulating that matter. Each road has its own 
 local tariffs. 
 
 Q. I am asking of your road. 
 
 A. I say every line has its own tariffs. If I had a comparison of the 
 tariffs I could show you what the difference of the percentage was, 
 taking any specified points you might name on the line. 
 
 Q. I do not know your points, or I would specify them. 
 
 A. I will obtain that local tariff and give you a comparison. I have 
 not it with me, however. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. The statements which you have furnished to the committee are in 
 relation to your own road ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; those are the joint rates made by the different lines from 
 Louisville. 
 
 Q. By all the lines'? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; by all the lines. 
 
 Q. I see you have not stated the New Orleans rates here. 
 
 A. That was a southern line and I had not the rate. I supposed Mr. 
 Smith would be here, and I did not have it. I also omitted Memphis. 
 
 Q. Tou said somethiug about this rate of 34 cents to Saint Louis in* 
 eluding two terminal changes ? 
 
 A. There is a bridge-toll here of 4 cents, and one at Saint Louis of 6, 
 making 10 altogether. 
 
 Q. So that that 34 includes the bridge-charges ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know what the rates are now from here to New Orleans? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I am not familiar with the southern tariffs. 
 
 Q. How are these joint rates made up? 
 
 A. They are made up by a meeting .of the different interests which 
 center here. 
 
 Q. That has been usual, I suppose, for several years 1 
 
 A. It has. 
 
 Q. Do you know how much these rates vary South, owing to the rise 
 or fall of the water 1 
 
 A. No, sir ; I am not familiar with the rates of transportation from 
 here South. 
 
 Q. When these joint rates are made, for how long a time do they 
 usually continue 1 
 
 A. Until there is a necessity for a change, for some cause or another. 
 
 Q. No definite time ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Until they meet and agree upon a change 1 
 
 A. That is it. 
 
 Q. Do you prorate with any water-line 8 
 
 A. Here we connect with none. We do, too ; we connect with the 
 
TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOAED. 581 
 
 line from Saint Louis — the Northern Transportation Line — the northern 
 line of packets from Saint Louis to Saint Paul. 
 
 Q. Do you prorate with them on freights ? 
 
 A. We have until the last year. 
 
 Q. On what terms did you prorate when you were running in that 
 manner ? 
 
 A. They allowed us 50 per cent, of the earnings between here. They 
 divide it equally to all points above Keokuk, between Keokuk and Saint 
 Paul. 
 
 Q. From all points between Keokuk and Saint Paul, do you say ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; anywhere above the rapids. Last year we were work- 
 ing upon a tariff issued by them at Saint Louis, allowing them their 
 rate from there. 
 
 Q. I do not know that I understand your meaning. 
 
 A. They would fix a rate from Saint Louis to those points North, by 
 boat, and we would make our rates from here to correspond ; that is, if 
 we wished to have the freight. 
 
 Q. You do not know anything about prorating on southern water- 
 lines, do you ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman, (referring to tariff:) 
 
 Q. Please state whether that is the last classification of your rates. 
 
 A. That is the rate we are working on at the present time. 
 
 Q. Is this the last rate of the southern road ? 
 
 A. I supposed Mr. Smith would be here, and I am not myself familiar 
 at all with those southern roads. That is the last they have published 
 in their office. 
 
 Q. Is the classification of articles westward different from the east- 
 ward-bound articles? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. This classification (referring to document) governs all classifica- 
 tions from Louisville to points West, Northwest, a,nd North ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is your rate to Cincinnati ? 
 
 A. Ten cents a hundred. 
 
 Q. How much per ton per mile f 
 
 A. The distance is one hundred and twenty-seven miles, and we take 
 out of that a bridge-transfer of 4 cents. 
 
 Q. I do not exactly catch your meaning. 
 
 A. The bridge-toll is 3 cents a hundred ; that from 10 would leave 7; 
 and the distance is one hundred and twenty-seven miles, so that there 
 would be a fraction over a cent a ton a mile charge. 
 
 Q. How does that compare with the water-rate 1 
 
 A. It is an agreed rate with the lines. It ought to be the same. 
 
 Q. Do you prorate with them in any way ? 
 
 A. We "don't ; we are a competing line from here there. 
 
 P.y the Chairman : 
 Q. How many roads are there from here to Cincinnati ? 
 A. Three — two railroads and one river line. 
 Q. There is your line and the other short line ? 
 
 A. 'Yes, sir ; "the short line on the one side, and we on the other side. 
 Q. Are these rates maintained during the low water % t 
 A. We make them uniform during the season. 
 
582 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Q. That is, they correspond with the river at low water. You don't 
 mean to say that your rates are the same throughout the season? 
 
 A. Between here and Cincinnati they are. Competition is brought 
 down as low as any one wants it, I reckon. 
 By Mr. SheemAN : 
 
 Q. How far is it to your main line from here North ? 
 
 A. Fifty-two miles. 
 
 Q. What is the point? t/v , .„ 
 
 A. North Vernon; it is fifty-two miles from Jeffersonville, and fifty- 
 three miles from here. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Can you state the tonnage of your road between here and Cincin- 
 nati 1 ,,-,.,. 
 
 A. No, sir ; I did not obtain those figures. I intended doing so this 
 
 morning, and failed. 
 
 Q. Do you know which carries the heaviest tonnage, the river or the 
 railroads 1 
 
 A. We have no means of knowing that, sir; each one is running his 
 own department. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Q. Do you know the charge by river from here to Cincinnati to-day 1 
 A. Their rate should be 10 cents a hundred on fourth-class freight. 
 Q. Why should it be so ; have you a combination! 
 A. That is the agreement. That is the joint tariff issued by the line, 
 and that to which we adhere, and I suppose they do. 
 Q. You mean, you agree with the water-line i 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Do you ever have any trouble about ratting, or cutting, so called ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; cutting of freights occurs very often. It is only tempo- 
 rary, however. 
 
 Q. Then what do you do in case you suspect one of your competing 
 lines of cutting? 
 
 A. If we desire the freight, we go in for it, and if we do not want it, 
 we let it pass. 
 
 Q. Is that the usual cause of meeting of the agents of the different 
 lines ? 
 
 A. They call together a meeting pretty soon, if it is followed up. 
 
 Q. And then you adjust that matter as you can, or enter into compe- 
 tition ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What point on this schedule is about the same distance as Cincin- 
 nati "? 
 
 A. Bowling Green would be about as near as it would be by the short 
 line. Their distance is one hundred and thirteen, I think, to Bowling 
 Green ; and it is one hundred and ten by the short line to Cincinnati. 
 
 Q. What is the general difference per ton per mile between your route 
 to Cincinnati and Saint Louis, and the roads leading South and South- 
 east i 
 
 A. I could not answer that ; but I can file one of our local tariffs with 
 you. Their local tariffs will show it if you mean local. 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. I understood that your local tariff was not here. 
 A. It is down at my office. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 583 
 
 By Mr. Sherman: 
 
 Q. Nashville is not on this list. 
 
 A. Nashville is on one of these tariffs South. There may be some 
 difference going South, but there is not much difference, I think. 
 
 Q. We have been informed that rates are higher in the South by rail- 
 roads. 
 
 A. It is the case with some of the southern lines, but not all, I think. 
 
 By the Chairman ; 
 
 Q. Do you remember the rate to Bowling Green on fourth-class 
 freight ? 
 
 A. I do not. The freight from Louisville to Nashville is at the rate. 
 of 2 cents and 7 mills per ton per mile oh fourth-class freight. 
 
 
 
 » 
 
 
 
 
 O . 
 
 O . 
 
 O . 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 From Louisville to — 
 
 S* 
 
 A 8 
 
 ja 8 
 
 
 
 !■§ 
 
 11 
 
 ■8-9 
 
 £ 
 
 
 ■jS 
 
 £ 
 
 « 
 
 a 
 
 
 Per cwt. 
 
 Per cwt. 
 
 Per cwt. 
 
 
 
 tO 55 
 
 $0 67£ 
 
 $0 65 
 
 1,000 
 
 
 60 
 
 724 
 
 70 
 
 1,058 
 
 
 50 
 
 624 
 
 60 
 
 *777 
 
 
 45 
 
 574 
 
 55 
 
 716 
 
 
 45 
 
 654 
 
 60 
 
 *721 
 
 
 375 
 
 374 
 
 40 
 
 556 
 
 
 274 
 . 274 
 
 30 
 
 274 
 274 
 321 
 30 
 
 30 
 30 
 35 
 30 
 
 373 
 
 
 329 
 
 
 394 
 
 
 305 
 
 
 40 
 
 10 
 
 324 
 
 25 
 
 45 
 
 34 
 
 40 
 
 10 
 
 324 
 
 25 
 
 45 
 
 34 
 
 40 
 10 
 35 
 25 
 45 
 34 
 
 393 
 
 
 tl27 
 
 
 *423 
 
 
 838 
 
 
 374 
 
 
 320 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 25 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 * Via short line. 
 
 fOver short line, 108 miles. 
 
 The above are rates, all rail, as made jointly by lines East and North from Louisville, 
 Ky., on fourth-class freights, during the month of October, and are a full average of 
 fall and winter rates ; say New York, the average for three years shows rate 62J cents ; 
 summer and spring rates to same point will be from 50 to 55 cents per hundred. 
 
 Rates for points "West and Northwest are uniformly the same. (See tariff attached, 
 marked A.) Tariffs for points east, as issued jointly; also, tariff used by rail lines 
 South, with bridge circular, showing tolls by Louisville Bridge Company, are respect- 
 fully offered with inclosed. 
 
 * R. H. CAMPBELL. 
 
 Louisville, Ky., October 29, 1873. 
 
 Examination of J. J. Pokter. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Question. I believe you were president of the board of trade of this 
 town, formerly. 
 
 Answer. I was. 
 
 Q. Have you any information which you desire to give to the commit- 
 tee upon the question of transportation by rail or water ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I have for some time had a decided interest in securing, 
 in some way, cheap transportation for the products of the West to the 
 Atlantic sea-board, and have given that matter some attention. But 
 you gentlemen have already received nearly all the information which 
 
584 TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOAED. 
 
 [ could give you in that connection from the witnesses who have here- 
 tofore been before you. . 
 
 Q. I believe you were chairman of the committee appointed by the 
 national board of trade to examine and report upon the improvement of 
 the Ohio and James Rivers and Kanawha water- routes, were you not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. State the result of that examination, and your report. 
 
 A. Do you desire to know the constitution of the committee, time, 
 &c, of the meeting, or simply the result ? 
 
 Q. State the case in your own way. , 
 
 A. About the 7th October, 1868, the Louisville Board of Trade consid- 
 ered the proposition of the completion of the James Eiver and Ka- 
 nawha Canal. After calm and deliberate consideration they offered 
 certain resolutions, which will be presented to you by the president of 
 this board, I presume, before you adjourn, and recommended that those 
 resolutions and the principle involved be considered by the national 
 board of trade which assembled in Cincinnati, I think, on the 3d of 
 December following. 
 
 At that meeting the question was considered one of so much impor- 
 tance that by a unanimous vote that body determined to postpone its 
 consideration for another year, and appointed a committee, whose names 
 I can give you, if you desire. It consisted of Porter, of Louisville ; 
 Stanard, of Saint Louis ; Harwell, of New Orleans ; Roberts and Tapp, 
 of Memphis ; Brown, of Portland, Me. ; Converse, of Boston ; Hinkin, of 
 New York; Monroe, of Dubuque ; Munn, of Chicago ; Taylor, of Saint 
 Paul, Minn.; John A. Geno, of Cincinnati; J. Price Wetkerill, Phila- 
 delphia ; Israel M. Parr, of Baltimore ; Robert Hughes, of Norfolk ; and 
 Charles S.'Carrington, of Richmond. This committee assembled at the 
 White Sulphur Springs, W. Va., on the 17th day of August, 1869, and 
 were in session about ten days or two weeks. They examined witnesses 
 in regard to the feasibility of the line, and also in regard to the pro- 
 duce of the West seeking an exit to the sea-board, and also in regard 
 to the heavy manufactures that needed cheap transportation from the 
 sea-board to the interior. After a very laborious session they made a 
 report, which is contained in the pamphlet I have before me, the sub- 
 stance of which is that the water-line of communication between the 
 valley of the Mississippi and the Atlantic sea-board was a necessity for 
 the products of the West, and also for the transportation of the manu- 
 factured and imported goods arriving upon the Atlantic sea-board, and 
 destined for the West. 
 
 They came also to the conclusion that such a water-line from the mouth 
 of the Kanawha River, up that stream to New River, up New River to the 
 mouth of Greenbrier, and thence to a point near the summit of the Alle- 
 ghanies, and upon the eastern slope of the Alleghanie's, taking Jack's 
 River and James River to Hampton Roads, was certainly the most cen- 
 tral, and, as they believed, the most practicable route for such a water- 
 line. 
 
 They also, after considering the necessities of the West, and also the 
 necessities of the East to have cheap food brought from the West, con- 
 cluded that this was a matter of so much importance that the Govern- 
 ment could afford to give aid to it, although the political sentiments of 
 part of that committee, and probably a majority of it, had previously 
 been very much opposed to Government assistance in matters of inter- 
 nal improvement. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. You mean that they were democrats ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 585 
 
 A. I believe that most of them were. Most of those present were, at 
 all events, and yet they waived that political prejudice in consideration 
 of the overwhelming testimony which was brought before them in sup- 
 port of the importance of this enterprise. I know I went there myself 
 politically prejudiced against the Government having anything to do 
 with internal improvements, and came away satisfied that if there was 
 any work to which it should give anything at all, it was this. Our re- 
 port embodies these facts, and 'was delivered to the national board of 
 trade in December, I think, of 1869, and the executive committee of 
 that body, I believe, memorialized Congress upon that subject, or at 
 least were so instructed to do at the meeting in December, 1869. In 
 fact, I know that they did do it. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. It was adopted by the board of trade ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. The national board of trade had a peculiar rule in re- 
 gard to the adoption of its measures.- " Nothing shall be considered as 
 the action of the board unless it shall receive a vote of two-thirds of the 
 members present." This received more than two- thirds, and was there- 
 fore adopted by the board. 
 
 Q. Did you make any comparison between the cost of rail and water 
 while you were in session ? Did you take that question into considera- 
 tion « 
 
 A. We did ; and made a great many tables contained in this report 
 in regard to the difference of cost between rail and water transportation. 
 
 Q. What was the conclusion of your comparison between rail and 
 water as to cost ? 
 
 A. I presume an.answer as. to the average shown by our tables would 
 be more satisfactory to the committee without any details. We found 
 that very little freight could be carried by rail profitably at less than 
 1J cents per ton per mile. We found that it could be carried by water 
 at less than one- third of that amount. There were a great many in- 
 stances given in the report showing a variation from this, but this is my 
 conclusion from the whole testimony. 
 
 Q. Does that include canal or open navigation ? 
 
 A. 1 refer to canal. 
 
 Q. Applied to canals ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir : and applicable to a canal which would be free. 
 
 Q. Free of tolls, do you mean ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you make a comparison as to canal and open water? 
 
 A. I believe we did, but the result of that comparison I do not now 
 remember. I remember we compared the cost of transportation, by 
 such a line, of produce from the various ports upon the Mississippi 
 Eiver, Liverpool via the Mississippi, New Orleans, Gulf of Mexico, and 
 around Florida, as compared with this line, but 1 was not especially in- 
 terested in that, as the testimony which came before the committee im- 
 pressed me with the idea that the rates of insurance through the Gulf 
 of Mexico and around the peninsula of Florida, together with the dan- 
 gers and difficulties in passing out of the Mississippi Eiver into the Gulf 
 of Mexico, rendered it certain in the minds of the committee that that 
 would not be a competing line to the. central water-line when once estab- 
 lished. 
 
 Q. Did you make any estimates of the general tonnage of the Ohio 
 Eiver? • 
 
 A. We did, sir ; but I do not now remember what it was. 
 
 Q. Does your report show it ? 
 
ggg TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. It does; it will take me some time to find it. 
 
 Q. Was that of the general tonnage of the river 1 . . . 
 
 A. The general tonnage of the Ohio River and also of the Mississippi , 
 also of the number of miles of navigable water in the Ohio and Missis- 
 sippi and their tributaries. , .. 
 
 There was a question before this committee yesterday, I believe, in 
 regard to the sales of tobacco in Louisville. I find that the largest 
 sales that have been made here have exceeded 50,000 hogsheads, lhese 
 hogsheads are not of the size and weight that usually go to market; 
 they are very much larger, and probably average 50 per cent. more. 
 The value of the sales in one year in the city of Louisville was 
 $11,000,000. All of this sought the Atlantic sea-board for a market, 
 except the amount consumed here in the manufactories. I refer to this 
 because I believe the matter was not fully explained in the testimony 
 before you heretofore. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman: 
 Q. Is that tobacco exported to foreign countries, or to our eastern 
 ports? 
 A, A very large part of it goes abroad. 
 Q. In leaf? 
 A. In leaf. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. The committee of which you spoke sat in 1869 ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, in 1869. 
 
 Q. Did that committee consider carefully the relative merits of the 
 other water-lines to the Atlantic coast or to the Gulf of Mexico as an 
 outlet for western produce ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What line did you consider in connection with the James Eiver 
 and Kanawha, or any other lines ? 
 
 A. We considered the lines connected with the Tennessee Eiver, 
 through Georgia to the Atlantic coast. 
 
 We considered another line through the Tennessee Eiver to a point 
 in Alabama, and thence to Mobile, and we also considered several 
 schemes for the improvement of the delta of the Mississippi. 
 
 Q. And you say that you gave the preference over all these lines to 
 the James Eiver and Kanawha ? 
 
 A. We did. Our attention was also called to the Fox Eiver improve- 
 ment. 
 
 Q. The Wisconsin and Fox Eiver improvement? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but the committee was of the impression that the cli- 
 matic difficulties up there, resulting in snow and ice, were so great that 
 it would hardly be worth while for us to consider that measure very at- 
 tentively. We confined ourselves almost entirely, so far as the lines 
 north of this projected center line were concerned, to this. We did con- 
 sider those southern lines, however. 
 
 Q. Does your report show what elements entered into your calcula- 
 tion in arriving at that conclusion? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Cost of construction ? 
 
 A. Cost of construction of the canal; cost of construction of the 
 character of boats necessary; time necessary to construct. All these 
 matters were considered by the committee and reported upon, and au- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 587 
 
 thorities were generally given for nearly all the facts stated by the com- 
 mittee. 
 
 Q. What did you mean by saying awhile ago that those lines would 
 not be competing lines with the James Eivet and Kanawha ? 
 
 A. I think when I used that connection, sir, it was in regard to the 
 transportation of grain from the West down the Mississippi Eiver 
 through the Gulf of Mexico, around the peninsula of Elorida, to At- 
 lantic ports, or even to Atlantic ports in Europe. 
 
 Q. Let us understand more definitely. Do you mean that the trans- 
 portation by the James Eiver and Kanawha would be so much cheaper 
 that freight would 'not go over either of the other lines, supposing they 
 were constructed or established, or do you mean that the trade which 
 would go over the James Eiver and Kanawha would seek that outlet 
 naturally, and freight from other sections of the Union would go over 
 the other lines? 
 
 A. Our conclusion was that the freight from competing points, when 
 the James Eiver and Kanawha Canal was completed, would invariably 
 take the James Eiver and Kanawha Canal as its outlet rather than the 
 Mississippi Eiver. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by competing points ? 
 
 A. For instance we would take Saint Louis as a fair competing point, 
 and also Cairo. We would take a point above that upon the Missis- 
 sippi Eiver where the produce would only have to be floated to the moiith 
 of the Ohio, requiring no other propelling power, and yet our conclu- 
 sion was that it would subject itself to propulsion up stream from Cairo, 
 and through this line to Hampton Eoads, rather than take the other 
 course. 
 
 Q. In other words, then, your conclusion was that freight that was 
 equally accessible to the mouth of the Tennessee, or the Ohio Eiver, 
 would take the Ohio in preference to the Tennessee, going that way, or 
 in preference to going' down the Mississippi ? 
 
 A. There were some gentlemen on our committee who were engaged 
 in the grain-trade, and who stated that they had had some experience 
 in the shipment of grain brought via New Orleans. They were not sat- 
 isfied in the results. They believed that the climatic difficulties would 
 prevent the shipment in that direction, even if the freight was not less 
 by another route. We became satisfied that the freights would be less 
 by the other route, and, therefore, the other argument was not neces- 
 sary to convince us of this fact, so far as the competition between the 
 Mississippi and the James Eiver and Kanawha Canal was concerned. 
 But we apprehended that possibly there might be some climatic diffi- 
 culties in the line up the Tennessee Eiver and thence to Mobile, or 
 through Georgia, as via the Gulf of Mexico. Upon that fact we had 
 great difficulty in getting any information as to whether grain shipped 
 in bulk through that latitude would be injured, because there had been 
 no experiments tried upon that line. But, apprehensive that there 
 might be some such difficulties found, we were inclined to favor the 
 other line. 
 
 Q. I understand you, then, that the effect of the climate upon the 
 grain shipped through Georgia did not enter into your calculation at 
 all in getting at the result 1 
 
 A. It would have done so if we had not concluded that the freight 
 would be cheaper by this route in any eveut. To make myself perfectly 
 plain in that matter, our conclusion was, that the difference in freight 
 would itself carry the produce over the central water-line when it came 
 in competition with the other; but, if we had not come to that conclusion, 
 we would have been compelled, from the testimony before us, to have 
 
588 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 concluded that this was the better line, on account of the climatic dif- 
 
 Q. All your reasons are spread out in that report, I understand I 
 
 A. I think they are. „ ,, .. „ ,,„ ,,. 
 
 Q. Did your committee consider the line from the mouth of the Mis- 
 sissippi bv inland water communication to the western coast of Morida, 
 and then across Florida by canal to the Atlantic °> ■ 
 
 A. No, sir; the committee did not; I have, however, individually 
 
 considered it. . , ,, „ 
 
 Q. The committee, however, did not consider that line at ail J 
 
 A. No, sir ; it was not before them. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS: 
 
 Q. What was your conclusion as to the time the central water-line 
 would be obstructed by ice 1 . 
 
 A. We took the average of several years, and I think our conclusion 
 was an average of thirty days. That was based upon the fact that the 
 canal would, reach an altitude where it passed through the tunnel at 
 the summit-level so high that we must expect more cold weather and 
 more obstruction by frost and ice than they had ever experienced before 
 in the lower latitude. We made a calculation for that. 
 
 Q. I understood you, you considered the cost and the supply of water 
 and the time, and thought that, all considered, it was altogether prac- 
 ticable I 
 
 A. We did think so. 
 
 Examination of B. 0. Levi. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Are you engaged in river transportation ? 
 
 Answer. Ues, sir. 
 
 Q. In what way ? 
 
 A.. CJn steamers. 
 
 Q. Between what points ? 
 
 A. Between here and New Orleans. 
 
 Q. What are the usual freight charges on the river between here and 
 New Orleans ? 
 
 A. On all classes, do you mean? 
 
 Q. On different classes, specifying each. 
 
 A. Our fourth class, which is the lowest rate, will average, I presume, 
 about $5 per ton, not more, certainly ; but I should judge 85 the year 
 round. 
 
 Q. What is the distance ? 
 
 A. It is fourteen hundred miles by water. 
 
 Q. Do your rates ever run higher than that on fourth-class freight ? 
 
 A. Very seldom, sir; we may say never when our large steamers 
 are' able to ply the water at all. When we lay up our large New 
 Orleans steamers and fall back upon what we term the stern-wheel 
 fleet, they are crabbing around to get what they can, but our regular 
 transportation charges will not average over $5 a ton. 
 ' Q. Are your- other classifications similar to the railroad ? 
 
 A. We do not adhere to them as strictly as the railroads do ; we vary 
 from $5 to about $7 a ton ; $2 more on lighter class and more valuable 
 freight. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had any running arrangements or combinations 
 with the railroads running south % 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 589 
 
 Q. No understanding with them as to prices ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What proportion of the year can you run your large steamers, 
 and what proportion your stern- wheel steamers ? 
 
 A. We run the large steamers nine months, calculating on a season 
 of that time. 
 
 Q. What are the three months in which you run the small steam- 
 ers? 
 
 A. In the summer season, when the rivers are naturally low, and the 
 sand-bars high. 
 
 Q. Where are those sand-bars interrupting navigation between here 
 and New Orleans ? 
 
 A. From here to Cairo, principally, and then from Cairo to Memphis, 
 more than the -lower portion. The greater obstructions that we en- 
 counter are between Memphis and this point. 
 
 Q. What is the character of those obstructions — sand-bars ? 
 
 A. Sand-bars only, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the difficulty in the removal, or keeping the river unob- 
 structed ? 
 
 A. I think it could be very easily done by the use of a dredge-boat. 
 I think it would probably give us eleven months in the year instead of 
 nine, as we now have. 
 
 Q. Has the Government spent any money recently in dredging out 
 those bars ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; we have had no dredge-boat on our rivers at any time, 
 that I recollect now, for dredging out channels. 
 
 Q. Is there not a point somewhere on the Mississippi called Grave- 
 yard Bend? 
 
 A. That is on the Upper Mississippi. 
 
 Q. Above' Cairo? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. We fortunately do not encounter it in our trade. 
 
 Q. Do you prorate with any railroads ? 
 
 A. No, sir; excepting with the Texas railroads. We have a line 
 running from New Orleans, called the Morgan Line, through Texas, 
 around coastwise, &c, and we prorate with them. 
 
 Q. On what terms do you prorate with them ? 
 
 A. In fact it is not a prorate. They have arbitrary rates. They 
 send me their rates. . I am their appointed agent here, and simply add 
 our rates to theirs. It is not really a prorate at all, but they allow us 
 to make a through rate over their roads, and they respect our through 
 rates. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of the steamboat charges on the Upper 
 Ohio River, above here ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do those connecting roads charge per ton per mile in 
 Texas? 
 
 A. I do not know, sir ; they only give us their rates in round figures 
 between points, and I really do not know the difference in miles from 
 point to point. 
 
 Q. State, if you please, what the river rates are above here ? 
 
 A. Do you mean from here to Pittsburgh ? 
 
 Q. Prom here to Cincinnati, and to Pittsburgh. 
 
 A. It will not average over twenty-five cents per hundred from here 
 to Pittsburgh — $5 a ton. 
 
 Q. That is about six hundred miles? 
 
 A. Seven hundred miles from here to Pittsburgh. 
 
 Q. What do you make it to Cincinnati, by river ? 
 
590 
 
 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. About $2 a ton. . < , 
 
 Q. On fourth- class freight you include what i 
 A. Bacon, pork, lard, grain, bagging, &e. 
 
 By Mr. Davis: •,,■•■ ■» 
 
 • Q. Is your rate the same ascending as descending the Mississippi T 
 
 A. It is a little lower up stream than .down. I do not think it 
 would average, say, more than $4 up stream. 
 
 Q. That is owing to having less freight ? 
 
 A "Y^ps six 
 
 Q.' Do you 'know the usual rate by rail from here to New Orleans 1 
 
 A. It is about $10. 
 
 Q. About double your rate % 
 
 A. Fully double. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. The distance is how much % 
 
 A. I do not think I know the distance ; it is eight hundred miles, I 
 think, however, by rail. It is fourteen hundred miles by water. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. Is the insurance paid by yourself, or by the parties owning the 
 goods % 
 
 A. By the shipper, or consignee. We do not insure. 
 
 Q. Whatisthat? 
 
 A. Three-quarters of one per cent. 
 
 Q. Is that the year round % 
 
 A. They never change. 
 
 Q. Do they charge the same insurance on all character of goods f 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; they only take a fire and water risk, and fire and water 
 alike destroy almost everything. 
 
 Q. Do you find much difficulty between here and Cairo, more than 
 you do from there down % 
 
 A. O, yes. Sometimes we take a half a trip, as we term it, to Cairo, 
 and go to Cairo to load up. 
 
 Q. For the want of water ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; for the want of water. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. How does the rise and fall of the river affect railroad freights % 
 A. Not at all, sir, except when the river is so low that we cannot run, 
 and then they raise us higher on freights. 
 
 J. M. Duncan, president of the board. Mr. Chairman, I desire to 
 present some resolutions passed by the board at Louisville, which read 
 as follows : 
 
 Whereas, on the 7th of October, 1868, this hoard of trade adopted the folio-wing reso- 
 lutions without a dissenting vote : 
 
 " Resolved, That cheap transportation for its heavy products to the markets of the 
 world is not only a necessity to the West, but equally demanded by the best interests 
 of the whole country. 
 
 "Resolved, That the most feasible plan to secure this end is to provide a direct and 
 continuous line of water communication between the Mississippi River and the Atlan- 
 tic Ocean, in a latitude favorable to the safe carriage of grain in bulk, and yet com- 
 paratively free from obstructions by frost ; that such a communication can be readily 
 secured by the Ohio, Kanawha, and James Rivers, through Virginia and West Virginia, 
 to the Atlantic Ocean, near the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay. 
 
 ' Resolved, That said line of water communication is a work of great national impor- 
 tance, and as such is entitled to receive such aid from the General Government as will 
 secure its completion at the earliest possible period." 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 591 
 
 And whereas since then the necessity for cheap transportation for heavy products, 
 to and from the West, has materially increased, and engineering and other investiga- 
 tions have more fully demonstrated the feasibility of the central water-line referred to 
 in the above resolutions: Therefore, 
 
 Resolved, That this board now reiterates, with increased confidence, the opinion ex- 
 pressed October 7, 1868, favoring the completion of the James River and Kanawha 
 Canal as the most practicable and central water-line. 
 
 The above is a correct copy of preamble and resolutions adopted this day by the 
 Louisville Board of Trade. 
 
 J. M. DUNCAN, 
 President Board of Trade. 
 Louisville, October 29, 1873. 
 
 Whereas the necessities of the commerce of the Ohio River demand that the Louis- 
 ville and Portland Canal shall be made a free channel of transit for all classes of boats, 
 thereby promoting the interests of Louisville as well as of all the cities in the Ohio 
 River Valley: Therefore, 
 
 Besolved, That it is the sense of this board that the Governme nt of the United States, 
 having expended a large amount of money for its improvement, and now virtually 
 owning said canal, should take possession of the same and make it free of the present 
 onerous tax on commerce so soon as it can be done without conflicting with the juBt 
 rights of the bondholders. 
 
 Besolved, That we respectfully recommend that the Government of the United States 
 issue its bonds, with coupons attached, to the amount of the mortgage bonds now out- 
 standing on said canal, bearing the same interest and matnrin g respectively with the 
 canal bonds, and tender them in exchange therefor. 
 
 • The above is a copy of a preamble and resolutions adopted this day by the Louisville 
 Board of Trade. 
 
 Louisville, October 29, 1873. 
 
 J. M. DUNCAN, 
 President Board of Trade. 
 
 Saint Louis, Mo., October 30, 1873, 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment. The Hon. E. O. Stanard 
 read "to the committee the following pamphlet : 
 
 To Hon. William Wdsdom, 
 
 Chairman of the Senate Committee on Transportation : 
 Your circular in reference to seventh division, "the Mississippi River route," addressed 
 to the Union Merchants' Exhange, having heen referred to the undersigned committee by 
 the Union Merchants' Exchange of Saint Louis, we would most respectfully submit the 
 following, in reply to such inquiries contained therein as are applicable to this locality 
 and accessible to this committee : 
 
 • Question 1. What have been the average freight charges from Saint Louis to New 
 Orleans for twenty years, and from Saint Paul to Saint Louis for twenty years ? 
 
 Answer. In answer to the first question propounded by your honorable committee, 
 we submit the following series of tables compiled from trustworthy sources : 
 
 Highest and lowest rate of freight charged on grain in sacks and flour per barrel, per river, 
 between, Saint Louis and New Orleans, from 1850 to 1860 inclusive — distance, 1,250 miles. 
 
 1850 , 
 
 1851 
 
 1852 
 
 1853... 
 
 1854 , 
 
 1855 
 
 1856 
 
 1857 
 
 1858 ?_. 
 
 1859 , 
 
 I860...: , 
 
 Grain per 
 
 bushel. 
 
 Elonr per 
 
 barrel. 
 
 iwest. 
 
 Highest. 
 
 Lowest 
 
 Highest. 
 
 $0 8 
 
 $0 15 
 
 $0 18 
 
 $0 62J 
 
 7 
 
 17 
 
 22i 
 
 60 
 
 5 
 
 14 
 
 20 
 
 50 
 
 6i 
 
 25 
 
 20 
 
 1 25 
 
 9 
 
 25 
 
 25 
 
 1 25 
 
 9 
 
 35 
 
 15 
 
 1 20 
 
 m 
 
 • 40 
 
 25 
 
 1 00 
 
 10 
 
 m 
 
 25 
 
 1 00 
 
 10 
 
 20 
 
 35 
 
 ' 60 
 
 lii- 
 
 40 
 
 15 
 
 90 
 
 ii 
 
 45 
 
 18 
 
 1 00 
 
592 
 
 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
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TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 593 
 
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594 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Average freight charge, from Saint Paul to Saint Loutijy steamers for seventeen years- 
 u J J distance eight hundred mites. 
 
 1856. 1857. 1858. 1859. I860. 1861. 
 
 , , , is„ TSr 14c. 15c. ltic. 15c. 
 
 Wbeat, per bushel 18c wc. ££ 50 
 
 Flour, per barrel 60c. 50c. 5Uc. wc 
 
 ^ Barley, per bushel 14c. 12c. uc. 
 
 1862 1863. 1864. 1865. 1866. 1867. 
 
 Wheat, per bushel 18c 19c 2|c 24c 23c 21c 
 
 Flour, per barrel 60c. 62c. 75c 7^ ^ ^ 
 
 •Barley, per bushel 14°. j-*>" 
 
 1868. 1869. 1870. 1871. 1872. 
 
 Wheat, per bushel -20c. 20c. 18c 15c 15c. .... 
 
 .^&^::::::::::::::::S£ tt c , *, i*. 12c 
 
 The years 1861, 1862, 1863, and 1864 were the years of the great civil strife, and during 
 ■n^it of that time there was no commerce between this city and New Orleans. 
 
 TVe honorable committee will please note the following features of this answer. 
 TU Sighest and lowest rates of freight charged on corn per bushel by river during the 
 - abow; years were as follows : 
 
 Highest. Lowest. 
 
 1sfif 41 3-lOc. 14c. 
 
 jSS 41 3-10c. 14c. 
 
 .JSw" - 32 2-5c. 5 3-5c. 
 
 %£- 22 2-5c. 11 l-5c. 
 
 iQ70 "" 39 l-5c. 11 l-5c. 
 
 j 871 '" 33 3-5c. 8 2-Sc. 
 
 1872..'.'.'.'.'.'...'... 36 2-5c. 9 4-5c. 
 
 It will he noted that there is a wide difference between the highest rate charged and 
 " the lowest. The lowest rate is that which prevails when there are more than eight 
 feet of water on the worst bars, and the highest rate that which is charged when 
 there txo less than five feet on the worst bars. If, therefore, the Government will 
 build the wing-dams recommended by this committee, at the worst spots between 
 Saint Lcmis and Cairo, the localities to be determined hereafter, we believe that 
 ten feet of water may be obtained throughout the year, and the rate of 
 freight bo thus reduced to something near the lowest figure above given, namely, 
 5f cents for a bushel of corn. As an evidence that the wing-dams or jettees which we 
 ask to be constructed will effectively remedy the evils of which we complain, we may 
 state that General Simpson, as will be seen from his letter accompanying this report, 
 is now engaged, by order of the Government, in constructing such a series of works at 
 Horsetail liar, twelve miles below Saint Louis, as are here referred to. 
 
 It will be noted that during the decade bounded by 1850 and 1860 freight-rates from 
 Saint Louis to New Orleans averaged much lower than they have since. The reason of 
 this was that our steamers, in the comparative absence of rail facilities between the 
 sea-board and the Mississippi Valley, did a largo portion of the carrying trade of the 
 West. Goods, passengers, mails, and express matter traversed the rivers of the valley 
 to a much greater extent than they have since done, and therefore steamers were not 
 compelled to make all their money on the freight of the down trip as they now must. 
 But let us represent to this committee that the great bulk of the produce exported 
 from America is produced in the Mississippi Basin, and is carried across half a conti- 
 nent by expensive and artificial thoroughfares, when it might better take the cheaper, 
 natural, and more comprehensive route to the sea afforded by the descent thither of its 
 own navigable waters. We beg the committee also to note that fully three-fourths of 
 the coffee, tea, and miscellaneous merchandise imported into the United States is con- 
 sumed in the Mississippi Basin, and that those goods are brought by vessels to Boston, 
 New York, Philadelphia, or Baltimore, and thence distributed to the people of this vast 
 basin by expensive artificial routes of carriage instead of coming up the navigable 
 streams of the valley in boats that ascend comparatively oargoless. In view of these 
 two facts, does it not seem plain that were the Western consumers willing to bring 
 their foreign goods and merchandise by the Gulf and rivers, a sufficient reduction 
 "■ could be made in the price charged for carrying produce from the Mississippi Valley 
 bins to Europe, along this great natural water path, to render this route the most 
 economical one on the face of the globe ? 
 
 Q. What have been the average number of days in the year for twenty years when 
 there has been less than four teet oi water betweeu Saint Louis and Cairo ? Less than 
 Bix? Less than eight? Less than ten ? More than ten f 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 595 
 
 A. The question respecting the number of days in each year for a series of years, in 
 which there was a specified depth of water in the channel of the Mississippi between 
 this point and Cairo, properly concerns only the worst bars between Saint Louis and 
 Cairo. The channel of the river between this city and Cairo is a deep one, but it is 
 crossed by several bars or shoals, and when a steamer loads for a lower port she must 
 do so with sole reference to the amount of water on the worst bar. Sometimes it hap- 
 pens that one single place, or at most, two places on the entire route, will shoal to a 
 depth of five feet ; and notwithstanding the fact that along the whole length of the 
 ehannel, with these exceptions, a depth of eight to twenty feet exists, all steamers 
 bound down stream must load for these shoal spots. With this explanation we present 
 the following table in answer to the query concerning the prevailing depth of the 
 Mississippi channel between this city and Cairo : 
 
 Biver navigation from Saint Louis to Neio Orleans for nine years, oeing the depth of water in 
 the channel bet'veen Saint Louis and Cairo. 
 
 1864. . 1865. 1866. 
 
 Days less than 4 feet to Cairo none none none 
 
 Days over 4 feet and less«than 6 do 52 40 31 
 
 Days over 6 feet and less than 8 do 119 82 89 
 
 Days over 8 feet and less than 10 do 72 40 123 
 
 Days of ten feet and over 122 203 122 
 
 1867. 1868. 1869. 
 
 Days less than 4 feet to Cairo 16 none none 
 
 Days over 4 feet and less than 6 do : 15 62 none 
 
 Days over 6 feet and less than 8 do 92 90 92 
 
 Days over 8 feet and less than 10 do 30 53 136 
 
 Days of 10 feet and over " 212 160 137 
 
 1870. 1871. 1872. 
 
 Days less than 4 feet to Cairo ' none none . 15 
 
 Days over 4 feet and less than 6 do 81 122 67 
 
 Days over 6 feet and less than 8 do 147 90 131 
 
 Days over 8 feet and less than 10 do 46 92 30 
 
 Days of 10 feet and over 91 61 -122 
 
 By an examination of these figures it will be noted that at no time during 1871 was 
 there so low a stage as four feet reported, yet during that year there was a period of 
 forty-nine days of suspension of navigation between Saint Louis and Cairo. The truth 
 of it is the river never averaged lower for so many weeks together than during the 
 summer, fall, and winter of 1871, and though there was always a little more than 5 feet 
 on the worst places to Cairo, yet there was not water enough for either barges or boats 
 to run. Most of the boats in the lower river trade draw 41 to 5 feet light, and a depth 
 of less than 5£ feet practically lays them up. As elsewhere stated, a few inexpensive 
 wing-dams would obviate this difficulty, and secure, during the lowest stage, fully 10 
 feet of water between Saint Louis and New Orleans, upon which depth paying loads 
 can he taken by any of the boats or barges in the trade, and uniform minimum rates 
 of freight may be established for the entire year, subject only to the rebates and. 
 " cuttings" induced by a sharp competition. 
 
 Q. 3. What have been the number of days in each year during which navigation 
 between Saint Louis and New Orleans has been suspended on account of ice or low 
 water ? 
 
 A. In reference to the number of days during which there has been a total suspen- 
 sion of navigation between this port and New Orleans for a series of years past, we 
 find the following to be the facts : In 1859, there was 12 days ; in 1860, 14 days ; in 1861, 
 7 days; in 1862, 14 days; in 1863, 12 days; in 1864, 38 days; in 1865, 16 days; in 1866, 
 17 days ; in 1867, 7 days ; in 1868, 31 days ; in 1869, 7 days ; in 1870, 10 days ; in 1871, 
 49 days ; and in 1872, 25 days. It will be observed that there is great irregularity in 
 the periods of suspension of navigation, the longest period being 49 days, and the 
 shortest 7 days. This is explained as follows : Between this city and Cairo there are 
 five or six places in the river where, from the great breadth it attains and the flatness 
 of the country over which it flows, the current is so weakened as to permit a rapid 
 precipitation of the sediment its waters contain, and sand-bars and shallow spots are 
 the result. During 1871 the water became quite low in the river, and for weeks these 
 places were impassable, and during the succeeding winter the ice which floated from 
 above Saint Louis would continually lodge upon these bars and shoals, and so gorge 
 the river as to make it unnavigable. These two causes combined produced the unusual 
 suspension of navigation noted in 1864, 1868, 1871, and 1872. The remedy for this is 
 simple, cheap, and effective. It is the construction on the part of the Government of 
 wing-dams on these few bad spots, which will so narrow the channel as to cut away 
 
596 
 
 TKANSPOKTATION TO THE SEABOAKD. 
 
 the bars and insure a good depth of water to Cairo throughout the entire year even » 
 the driest seasons, for upon either side of these bars, at the lowest stageo* jj£ ™£ 
 the water is at least 10 feet deep. There are several parties in this city and ewwto 
 who have made estimates upon the cost of constructing the required » ^ ^ 
 est of such estimates has been $20,000 and the highest $30,000 ^ e ach ^- Therelore the 
 honorable committee will observe that for a trifling expense «ie period rtn>g>M 
 navigation of the Mississippi River, between the cities of Saint Louis and ±New Orleans, 
 can be reduced to an annual average of ten or twelve clays. 
 Q. 4. What are the advantages gained by the transportation of grain in bulk over 
 
 gr A. n Sucdnctly stated, the advantages gained in transporting grain in bulk over grain 
 in sacks are, first, a saving of the sack, which amounts to about 5 cents per bushel on 
 the grain ; second, a saving in handling, which will amount, in course of the two or 
 three transshipments which occur between the producers point of shipment and the- 
 consumer's point of reception, to fully 5 cents per bushel more, or 10 cents per bushel 
 altogether. From 1865 to 1872 shipments of corn and oats from this city by the river 
 alone, in bags and bulk, have been as follows : 
 
 
 CORN. 
 
 OATS. 
 
 Years. 
 
 Sacks. 
 
 Bulk. 
 
 Sacks. 
 
 Bulk. 
 
 1865 
 
 443, 686 
 2, 954, 203 
 1,843,459 
 
 570. 657 
 446, 880 
 
 1,209,460 
 836, 049 
 
 921. 658 
 
 
 339, 826 
 645, 523 
 535, 651 
 462, 815 
 412, 917 
 120, 405 
 456, 027 
 564,625 
 
 34,800 
 
 1866 
 
 1867 
 
 66,070 
 
 23, 000 
 
 125, 026 
 
 86, 648 
 
 200 
 
 1868 
 
 416, 436 
 
 1869 
 
 13, 40& 
 
 1870 .. 
 
 
 1871 
 
 309, 077 
 1,711,039 
 
 
 1872 
 
 3,000 
 
 Total 
 
 9,226,052 
 
 2, 320, 860 
 
 4,067,789 
 
 467, 844 
 
 
 
 The greater part of this sacked grain has been consumed by the people of the South. 
 Its Bum total amounts to 13,294,837 sacks, or, at the least estimate, 45,000,000 bushels. 
 The saving, then, on the grain thus consumed during the eight years mentioned would 
 have been not less than $4,500,000. 
 
 Q. 5. Are there any disadvantages of a climatic nature involved in the transporta- 
 tion of grain from Saint Louis to European ports via the river and Gulf? 
 
 A. To the inquiry of the committee in reference to the climatic disadvantages of the 
 Gulf route, we reply there are none. In proof of this we submit the following account 
 of sales of northern spring wheat shipped in sailing vessels, in bulk, by the Saint 
 Louis Grain Association to Liverpool during the summer of 1869, and call attention 
 to the amount in each cargo returned as damaged : The cargo of the ship Essex con- 
 sisted of 14,611 bushels ; 30 bushels returned as damaged ; cargo sold by Budgett & 
 James, Bristol, England. The cargo of the ship Industrie consisted of 27,536 bushels ; 
 not a pound returned as damaged ; cargo sold by Budgett & James, Bristol, England. 
 The cargo of the ship Ocean Phantom consisted of 32,101£# bushels ; 4 bushels returned 
 as damaged ; cargo sold by Budgett & James, of Bristol, England. The cargo of the 
 ship Johannes consisted of 23,752 bushels ; not a pound returned as damaged ; cargo 
 sold by Budgett & James, of Bristol, England. The cargo of the ship Emma F. Secor 
 consisted of 25,757 bushels, 105 pounds of which were returned as damaged; cargo sold 
 by Patterson Bros. & Co., Liverpool. The cargo of the ship Mary Jones consisted of 
 13,196 bushels ; returned as damaged, 46 bushels and 17 pounds ; cargo sold by Patter- 
 son Bros. & Co., of Liverpool. The cargo of the ship Eoseneath consisted of 22,170 
 bushels ; returned as damaged, 39 bushels ; cargo sold by Patterson Bros. & Co., of 
 Liverpool, England. We presume it is sufficient tor vour honorable committee to know 
 that the above statements were accurately copied from the original account of sales 
 rendered to the Saint Louis Grain Association of this city. We have selected the car- 
 goes of sailing-vessels because, if any damage can come to grain from climatic disad- 
 vantages, that shipped by sail is most in danger. The above cargoes were all wheat, 
 bhipment of them was begun in March, 1869, and one to two cargoes per month were 
 sent forward throughout the summer. One of the above cargoes was becalmed in the 
 Gulf, and lay under a burning sun for days together. The calm was succeeded by a 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 597 
 
 storm, which drove the vessel far out of its course, and when it finally arrived in Liver- 
 pool it had been ninety days out. Yet the wheat was found to be in just as good con- 
 dition as any of the fresh receipts of the same grade of wheat daily arriving from New 
 York. There is still another fact which may especially interest this committee, and 
 that is that the Cargoes sent in these ships were found to grade higher than those 
 which had passed via the northern routes, and invariably outsold such wheat by seven 
 to nine pence per hundred pounds — about 10 cents of our money per buBhel. 
 
 Corn exported in oulkfrom New Orleans to England during 1873. 
 
 We beg leave to present the following list of cargoes of corn that have been exported 
 via the Gulf to England during the present season, every one of which has arrived 
 sound and has sold at the top figures of the market : 
 
 Date. 
 
 Name of vessel. 
 
 Cargo — Corn. 
 
 1873. 
 
 
 Bushels. 
 15, 000 
 19 000 
 
 
 Steamship Louisiana 
 
 
 12, 000 
 26, 000 
 
 
 
 April3 
 
 
 15, 000 
 22,000 
 18, 000 
 50, 000 
 24, 000 
 29, 000 
 25 000 
 
 April 8 
 
 
 April 11 
 
 
 April 23 
 
 
 April 23 
 
 
 May 9 
 
 
 May 17 
 
 
 
 
 16, 000 
 19, 000 
 19, 000 
 35,000 
 26,000 
 22, 000 
 
 
 
 June 30 
 
 
 July2 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Accounts of sales of each of the above cargoes have been received by mail, with the 
 exception of the last one, and the condition of the corn on arrival at its destination 
 has been just as good as any that has been shipped from New York or from any other 
 point of the world to Liverpool. 
 
 The steamer Memphis lay on the bar and in the river 43 days, and returned to New 
 Orleans and discharged cargo, repaired, and retook cargo, whi ch arrived in good con- 
 dition. 
 
 Q. 6. What are the rates of insurance on grain by the river and Gulf route? 
 
 A. Respecting the rate of insurance on grain by the river and Gulf route, we would 
 state that from Saint Louis to New Orleans the rate by boat and barges is 1 per cent. 
 From Saint Louis to Liverpool via the Gulf it is 3$. From Saint Louis to New York 
 via the Gulf is 2f. In reference to these rates, let us observe that the rate from this 
 city to New Orleans is much too high when applied to barge transportation, and would 
 he reduced to J percent, provided the obstructions were removed. The charge of 3f 
 now levied upon goods shipped from this port to Liverpool via the Gulf is also much 
 too high, and one of the reasons for so large a rate is the extra hazard of crossing the 
 bar at the mouth of the Mississippi River. If the Government will" construot the Fort 
 Saint Philip Canal, below New Orleans, this rate will be very materially reduced, and 
 added to the reduction in insurance will be a reduction in the rate of freight from New 
 Orleans to Liverpool, induced by the cheapening of port expenses, which the construc- 
 tion of the Fort Saint Philip Canal, or some similar improvement, will bring about. 
 
 Q. 7. What is the number of tons of freight transported each year from Saint Louis 
 to New Orleans, and from New Orleans to Saint Louis ? 
 
 A. The number of tons transported to New Orleans from this city by river, in 1871, 
 was 295,706. The number in 1872 was 322,813, showing a notable increase, when the 
 fact that 1872 was a dry year is considered. It will be remembered that a period of 
 forty-nine days of suspended navigation occurred in 1872 from ice and low water. The 
 number of tons of freight transported by river from New Orleans to Saint Louis, in 
 1871, was 150,000, and 200,000 in 1872. 
 
598 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 IMPORTANCE OF THE FORT SAINT PHILIP CANAL. 
 
 It is urged by those opposed to the Mississippi River and Gulf, route that there is no 
 need for the construction of the Fort Saint Philip Canal, the depth of water on the bar 
 heing sufficient for the class of vessels needed for the commerce of New Orleans. We 
 protest against this idea upon the ground that New Orleans is a sea-port, a,nd all sea- 
 ports should have such a depth of water guaranteed to them as will admit ot the ap- 
 proach of any of the commercial vessels of the world. Railways require to be of uni- 
 form gauge to be useful, and seaports should have channels of approach of something 
 near a uniform depth. This requires a depth of not less than 28 feet, and no system 
 of dredging can assure that depth upon the bar at the mouths of the Mississippi during 
 all- seasons of the year; therefore the Government should construct the Fort Saint 
 Philip Canal ; and it is the opinion of your committee that, by use of the improved 
 . methods for excavation, this canal may be built at a cost not exceeding $6,000,000, and, 
 if performed by contract — let to the lowest responsible bidder — it may not cost that 
 sum. 
 
 OBSTRUCTIONS. 
 
 The obstructions to the navigation of the Mississippi River, which, in the opinion of 
 your committee, prevent the cheap transportation of the heavy product of the Missis- 
 sippi Valley, from the head- waters of the Mississippi River to its mouth on the sea-board, 
 are chiefly the Rook Island and Des Moines Rapids, the shoal places and bars at vari- 
 rious points — not exceeding, perhaps, at ten or twelve places — the sunken wrecks and 
 snags, and the bar at the mouth of the river. The widening of the channel at Rock 
 Island, the completion of the canal at Des Moines, the construction of the wing-dams 
 heretofore alluded to, the removal of the wrecks and snags, and the construction of the 
 Fort Saint Philip Canal would, we believe, result in the utilizing of this great water- 
 course, so as to afford uniform and sufficient depth; of channel for steamers and barges 
 from Saint Paul to New Orleans, and reduce the cost of transportation of the products 
 of this entire section to a uniform cost not exceeding the lowest average, as shown by 
 the tables of freights accompanying this report. In the opinion of this committee, the 
 removal of wrecks and snags between Saint Louis and New Orleans is of vital import- 
 ance to the commerce of the river. Wrecks between Saiut Louis and Cairo, sunken 
 many years ago and mostly-forgotten, are so numerous that, from the extra hazard they 
 present, our rate of insurance is not only increased upon boat-hulls and cargoes, hut 
 steamers with thin hulls and light draught are refused insurance at any rate. It is 
 necessary, therefore, to construct much stronger and more expensive hulls, and neces- 
 sarily of deeper draught than would be acceptable to underwriters were these wrecks 
 and snags removed between Saint Louis and New Orleans, thus increasing very mate- 
 rially the cost of transportation. This committee, therefore, recommend that the river 
 he districted, and sufficient snag-boats be commissioned for each district to effectively 
 remedy this difficulty, and to remove from the banks in their districts such trees and 
 logs as are liable to become obstructions to navigation. 
 
 WHAT MAY BE ACCOMPLISHED. 
 
 We would call the attention of your honorable committee to the cheapest form of 
 water transportation yet devised, namely, the carriage of freight in barges towed hy 
 steamers especially adapted to that business. By means of barges commerce can be 
 effectively carried on in rivers of less depth than would he sufficient to float a steam- 
 boat large enough to pay her expenses as a freighter, for freight enough to load a large 
 steamer can be distributed in several barges and towed by one tow-boat, carrying 
 nothing but her machinery and fuel. Thus, upon comparatively shallow rivers, such 
 as the Illinois, the Ohio, the Upper Mississippi, and the Missouri, fleets of barges may 
 be used with profit to the company owning them and benefit to shippers. But in order 
 that tows of barges may be successfully handled, the Government must remove all 
 obstructions to navigation. By doing this beneficent work all of the people of the 
 country will he benefited— the producer in being able to ship his products for a low 
 price, and the consumer in being enabled to obtain his bread at a cheaper rate. The 
 introduction of barges on the Mississippi, from this port to New Orleans, reduced the 
 average freight rate at once, as will be seen by reference to the tables of averages sub- 
 mitted. Thus, in 1866, the average on corn to New Orleans was 23j 7 cents per bushel. 
 In 1867 it was 28f cents. In 1868, the year the barges came into full operation, the 
 average dropped to 16 cents, and the lowest rate attained was 5$ cents per bushel. 
 The committee will remember that the cost of transportation by river is controlled by 
 the depth of water. The quantity of fuel used being the same for a given time, and 
 the wages of hands employed, the cost, whether hy steamer or barge, depends upon the 
 quantity of freight which can be loaded upon a single vessel ; and with nine feet fifteen 
 hundred tons can he taken, while with six feet barely six hundred tons can be loaded, 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 599: 
 
 thus increasing the cost per bushel 150 per cent. Again, the time required for a trip , 
 down with barges increases from five days at high water to ten days at low water, for 
 the reason that pilots do not venture to run at night, and the cost of transportation is 
 thus again increased. We believe that when the depth of water in the river can be in- 
 creased to over nine or ten feet at all stages and all points, the average cost for ten 
 months in the year will be even less than the minimum of 5$ cents heretofore obtained. 
 
 The benefit of these improvements to- the people of the Mississippi Valley and the 
 consumers of their products will not be confined to the cheaper cost of transporting 
 the quantity which may actually be moved by the river route. Your committee has 
 doubtless learned that the rates of freight from Chicago eastward by rail are now re- 
 strained to low figures during the summer only by the competition offered by the lake 
 and canal route. From records of the Chicago Board of Trade it appears that the 
 loweBt rate by rail last year, namely, 45 cents per 100 pounds, was maintained for only 
 twenty days, and a rate as low as 50 cents for anly 123 days . As soon as the lake 
 route opened the rates by rail dropped, and'as soon as the quantity of grain to be 
 moved from lake points exceeded the available tonnage for moving it before the close 
 of navigation, the rates by rail were at once raised again. Thus for fully two-thirds 
 of the year the cost of moving grain from the Mississippi River to the sea-board is un- 
 restrained by competition, and we urge the committee to consider that the improve- 
 ment of the river, affording means for moving grain at cheaper rates, will secure that 
 competition for nine months in the year for all points below Dubuque, for more than 
 ten months for all points below the mouth of the Missouri, and for the whole year from 
 Cairo. Thus the rates at which grain may be moved eastward by rail will be reduced, 
 not as now for four months only, but for nine or ten months, and a great and perina-- 
 nent benefit be thus secured to all the producers of the Northwest. 
 
 We desire only additional facilities for transportation. The surplus products of the - 
 Northwest now far exceed the capacity of the lake and canal route, and crowd the rail- 
 roads in the fall and winter so greatly as to cause excessive rates, and to derange the 
 movement of all other freights. Making no war upon the railroads, desiring by no 
 means to deprive the lake and canal route of any share of the products of the North- 
 west which it can move to the consumer, we nevertheless believe that the necessities 
 of producer and consumer alike demand additional facilities for transportation, and 
 that competition extending through the whole year by which alone lower rates may 
 be permanently secured. 
 
 THE YEARLY SAVING TO BE EFFECTED. 
 
 Let us call the attention of your honorable committee to the following facts. The 
 following table* exhibits some of the leading articles produced in States bordering 
 upon the navigable rivers of the Mississippi Valley : 
 
 
 "Wheat. 
 
 Corn. 
 
 Oats. 
 
 Eye and 
 barley. 
 
 
 Bushels. 
 30, 128, 405 
 27, 747, 222 
 29, 435, 692 
 3, 391, 198 
 18, 866, 073 
 14, 315, 926 
 27, 882, 159 
 25, 600, 444 
 
 Bushels. 
 129, 921, 395 
 51, 094, 538 
 68, 935, 065 
 17, 025, 525 
 4, 743, 117 
 66, 034, 075 
 67, 501, 144 
 15, 033, 998 
 
 Bushels. 
 42, 780, 851 
 8, 590, 409 
 21, 005, 14-2 
 • 4, 097, !)25 
 10, 078, 261 
 16, 578, 313 
 25, 347, 549 
 20, 180, 016 
 
 Bushels. 
 4, 936, 978 
 
 
 813, 730 
 
 
 2, 556, 586 
 
 
 183, 612 
 
 
 1, 110, 112 
 
 
 823, 781 
 
 
 2, 562, HI 
 
 
 2, 970, 313 
 
 
 
 
 177, 373, 119 
 
 420, 288, 527 
 
 149, 208, 536 
 
 15, 947, 223 
 
 
 
 s Grand total 762,817,405 bushels. 
 
 At least one-third of this grain is moved from the point of production to the Eastern 
 States, over expensive artificial routes, losing to the producer 10 cents per bushel, and to 
 the consumer 10 cents per bushel, which might be saved by transportation down the 
 natural water-paths of the valley and around the sea-coast. The sea-board ports re- 
 ceived in 1873 a trifle over 100,000,000 bushels of grain, and 8,000,000 barrels of flour. 
 Here is 140,000,000 bushels of grain represented altogether. This grain paid a freight 
 of 20 cents per bushal more than need be paid, provided the Government will properly 
 remove the navigable waters of the Mississippi Basin, making $28,000,000, which might 
 have been saved, $14,000,000 to the consumer, and $14,000,000 to the producer. Thia 
 saving, it is estimated, can be made upon the 140,000,000 bushels of breadstuffs which 
 proceed eastward over the costly and artificial routes now employed, and no estimate, 
 
 *From the ninth Government census, 1870. 
 
600 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 ;s made on the live stock, provisions, hay, dairy products, fruit, &c, which the Eastern 
 States annually draw from this valley ; nor upon the tobacco, cotton, &c, which are 
 annually shipped from here eastward, to he thence exported, instead of proceeding to 
 New Orleans and taking ship there. 
 
 AN OPEN WATER-ROUTE THE WHOLE YEAK. 
 
 We have endeavored to show to your honorable committee that the navigable rivers 
 which drain the Mississippi Basin are best fitted for the cheap carriage of its products 
 to the markets of the world. But owing to " climatic difficulties," over which we have 
 no control, the rivers lying north of Saint Louis are closed by ice during certain months 
 of the winter. It would be impossible to move the products of the valley to this city 
 "by water during the months referred to. But by rail these products may come to our 
 warehouses, and from here be passed on by water during the entire win ter. During the 
 few days of suspended navigation at this^ointin winter, if there is great need of haste 
 in moving any products forward, a cheap outlet is furnished from here via rail to Belmont 
 or to Cairo, thence by barge by river. This is the only water-route over which ship- 
 ments of produce can be moved to the sea-board during the winter season. Eighteen rail- 
 ways terminate at Saint Louis. With their branches and connections they are enabled to 
 bring us the products of the entire Northwest, West, and Southwest at a rate of freight per 
 mile no greater than is charged by railways leading to other shipping points. We there- 
 fore earnestly urge, in behalf of producers and consumers both, that if the products of the 
 Mississippi Valley are moved in winter from points of production to any shippingcity they 
 must go by rail, and Saint Louis is the only shipping city to which they can come and be 
 forwarded by a cheap water-route during winter. We urge, moreover, that a very large 
 part of the products of Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Iowa, Illinois, Minnesota, and Wis- 
 consin may come to this city during the summer by water, and proceed to their desti- 
 nation by water, either to European ports, the Atlantic coast, Cuba, Mexico, South 
 America, or any other part of the world. But none of the products of these States, 
 with the exception of a narrow strip of Illinois, can proceed to any of the lake cities 
 by water, and the cost of transporting these products from the farms to the lakes by 
 rail is ordinarily larger than the whole cost should be, with improvements in the river, 
 from the same farms to the ocean at New Orleans. Let these improvements be speedily 
 effected, and the consumers of the Eastern States and of Europe, learning that they 
 can obtain their grain at lower rates by way of New Orleans, will at once provide 
 suitable vessels for moving it from that city, and whatever steamers and barges may 
 be needed to move the surplus of the Northwestern States by the river will be quickly 
 supplied. Then, in the days not far distant, when the population of the States of the 
 Mississippi Valley shall exceed one hundred millions, and when their surplus products 
 shall exceed twenty millions of tons yearly, while all other routes will be fully em- 
 ployed, the broad river, the natural and free highway from the interior to the sea, 
 restraining all by its constant competition, and offering cheap transportation for quan- 
 tities absolutely unlimited, will confer upon the producers of the Northwest, and the 
 consumers of all other sections, benefits which no human mind can estimate. 
 
 Thanking your honorable committee for your' attention, we herewith submit this 
 our report, hoping it may be productive of the beneficent results we have so loiig 
 striven to bring about. 
 
 E. O. STANARD, Chairman. 
 
 ERASTUS WELLS, 
 
 WM. H. STONE, 
 
 LEWIS V. BOGY, 
 
 R. P. TANSET, 
 
 WEB. M. SAMUEL, 
 
 GEORGE BAIN, 
 
 HENRY C. HAARSTICK, 
 
 ISAAC M. MASON, 
 
 MYRON COLONEY, 
 
 GEO. H. MORGAN, Committee. 
 
 APPENDIX. 
 
 Engineer Office, United States Army, 
 1122 Pine street, Saint Louis, Mo., October 29, 1873. 
 Sir : Agreeable to promise made to you and the Hon. W. H. Stone, yesterday, I re- 
 spectfully submit my views in relation to the proposed improvement of the Mississippi 
 River, between the mouth of the Missouri and the mouth of the Ohio Rivers. I shall 
 confine myself to this section of the river, as this is the only portion under my 
 charge. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 601 
 
 The works in progress and contemplated are of two distinct classes : 1st. Contraction 
 of the water-way, and 2d, the protection of caving banks; and in my judgment these 
 two classes will include nearly all the works that may be required for the complete im- 
 provement of the river. 
 
 Works of the second class do not directly and immediately improve the navigation 
 by removing bars or obstructions, but are nevertheless essential to the maintenance of 
 such an improved navigation. 
 
 Any permanent improvement depends upon the preservation of the conditions exist- 
 ing at the time the works are designed, and a change of the conditions will render the 
 works useless or positively injurious. Therefore conservative works of this class will 
 always be required above and below the sites of works of the first class. 
 
 It may appear at first that to classify all works for the actual- improvement of navi- 
 gation under the single head of " contraction of the water-way " is arbitrary and in- 
 sufficient ; but I am speaking of the permanent improvement of the Mississippi, and 
 while admitting that there may, and probably will, be found instances where work of a 
 different character may be required, I leave them out of the present discussion, because 
 their occurrence is uncertain, their permanance not to be expected, or their character 
 exceptional; as, for example, a bar of sand or gravel deposited from a tributary, the 
 removal of which cannot be expected to be permanent ; or the existence of rock, which 
 is exceptional to the general character of the river. 
 
 The general principle that may be laid down for the improvement of the Mississippi 
 is, " to collect all the waters into a single channel of moderate width." If this is done 
 I have no hesitation in saying that instead of the ruling depth of from four to five feet 
 now existing at low-water, a depth of ten feet can be maintained as a minimum at all 
 stages below the mouth of the Missouri, because that depth of channel is now found , 
 wherever the river has a width of water-way less than 2,500 feet at low water. 
 
 In saying that this is the cardinal principle for the improvement of the river perma- 
 nently, I do not wish to be understood as saying that the navigation can be improved 
 in no other way, but that this is the best for the Government to pursue, because it is 
 the only certain and lasting way. 
 
 While permanent works are in progress, which of necessity must be slow, the use of 
 temporary expedients at various points is not only proper, but desirable. 
 
 The system proposed is, then, in general terms, to contract the width where it is ex- 
 cessive, to close island chutes, and to protect caving bends and exposed points. To 
 carry out this system fully will require both time and money — how much it is impossi- 
 ble to estimate with certainty. The problem is enunciated only: its arithmetical an- 
 swer is not now in reach, and this generation must be content with knowing only the 
 first terms of the series. When complete, a navigation whose capabilities can no more 
 be computed then than the cost now will be assured, and also the final solution of the 
 question of protection against overflow. As the Mississippi will then be comparatively 
 a clear stream, flowing in a permanent bed, with banks relatively much higher than 
 now, as, the scour being confined, the bed of the stream will be permanently lowered. 
 Passing from this general view of the work to be undertaken, it remains to set forth 
 the initiatory steps and their immediate results. 
 
 For the present we must confine our efforts to the control of the low-water river for 
 the improvement of its navigation, restricting works to the minimum compatible with 
 the prevention of radical changes where such would be injurious. It is proposed to 
 design all works with an eye to their forming a foundation for the complete improve- 
 ment, but to select the localities and adopt an order of execution in the interest of im- 
 mediate relief to the obstructed navigation. 
 
 There is usually a small number of bars (three or four) which come prominently into 
 view as obstructions each year, and determine the controlling depths. If these are 
 improved, the relief is apparent, and it is safe to say that each of these places cost the 
 navigation yearly, in direct loss from delays and inj uries to boats, nearly, if not quite 
 as much, as would cover the expense of the local works required for their permanent 
 improvement. 
 
 , The prominent bars of this year are the ones selected for the operations of 
 the coming season, if Congress makes the appropriations asked for — $600,000. 
 This amount expended next year will afford practical results the year following, 
 the action of dikes and jettees not being immediate. Frequently the work of the first 
 season must 'be limited to securing the removal and redisposition of extensive sand- 
 bars, which being in mid-river render the sites of proposed works inaccessible, (of 
 which we have an example at Horsetail Bar;) in such cases the progress made must 
 necessarily be slow, as we proceed cautiously and wait for natural forces to act: 
 
 The work now in progress at Horsetail Bar is intended not only to remove the pres- 
 ent bar and establish the channel under conditions that will prevent its recurrence at 
 the same locality, but also to meet the arbitrary conditions imposed by its proximity to 
 the city of Saint .Louis, with the certainty that at no distant day the locality "will be 
 occupied by interests requiring wharf facilities ; for these reasons the work to be done 
 is more elaborate and expensive than will be required elsewhere. The work here and 
 
602 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 at Venice is of the first class named ; that at Sawyer Bend is an example of the second 
 class. 
 
 There are upon the list in this office twenty-two shoals between Saint Louis and the 
 mouth of the Ohio River, of which ten are noted as having been at various dates 
 serious obstructions, the depth of water at the lowest stage of the river over these bars 
 being as little as four feet, though the bad bars of any one year are fewer in number, 
 as has been stated before. The bad bars act as dams and pond back the water over 
 those above ; therefore as the worst bars are improved, we must expect others to come 
 into prominence, and thus in succession until the whole section of river has been im- 
 proved ; whence an argument for regular and liberal appropriations and a systematic 
 prosecution of all work as parts of a complete plan is so palpable that it does not 
 seem necessary to enlarge. 
 
 In conclusion, I will .state that a survey of the river from Saint Louis to Cairo, with 
 a view to its permanent improvement, has been in progress during the present season, 
 and at this date has reached a point within about forty-five miles of the latter place. 
 Already a rough estimate of my predecessor, on a previous imperfect survey, has made 
 the probable cost of improving the river between the mouth of the Missouri and the 
 mouth of the Ohio Rivers $2,996,000, and until a more thorough estimate can be made, 
 based on the more complete survey now in progress, we must content ourselves with 
 this approximation. 
 
 It may be proper, however, to observe that, while we will be enabled to arrive at a 
 tolerably close estimate of the cost of improving the river, based on the thorough sur- 
 vey now in progress, yet that the works already under prosecution, and those yet to be 
 designed, will, of course, necessarily modify this estimate, in proportion as new ob- 
 structions may be developed by those works, thus increasing the cost, or, as present 
 obstructions may disappear on account of effective works at other points, thus decreas- 
 ing the cost. 
 
 I am, sir, very respectfully, your obedient Bervant, 
 
 J. H. SIMPSON, 
 Col. of Engineers, V. S. A. 
 Hon. E. O. Stanard, 
 
 Chairman of local committee on transportation, <fc 
 
 I. N". Mason, general freight agent of the Keokuk Northern Line 
 Packet Company. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Please state to the committee what you find to be the chief 
 obstructions to the navigation of the Mississippi Eiver, between here 
 and Saint Paul. 
 
 Answer. The chief obstructions are the two rapids known as the Des 
 Moines Rapids and the Eock Island Eapids, on the Upper Mississippi. 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. What do you call the rapids at Jefferson ? 
 
 A. The first rapids is called the Des Moines Eapids. 
 
 Q. Where is that? 
 
 A. It is two hundred and twelve miles above Saint Louis, commencing 
 at Keokuk. 
 
 Q. And what do you call the other f 
 
 A. The Eock Island Eapids, three hundred and fifty-four miles from 
 Saint Louis, extending eighteen miles up the river. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Are you able to bring full cargoes during the entire season of nav- 
 igation when the river is open ? 
 A.' We are not. 
 
 Q. For what length of time, probably, on the average, are you able to 
 bring full cargoes f 
 A. The seasons run for full cargoes to the middle of Julv 
 Q. Up to the middle of July 1 J ' 
 
 ™± M b0Ut + -I 3 ^ mid ^ 1 0f i a \ J - mth the exception of the lower rapids 
 probably until the middle of June. ^ 
 
 Q. What is the draught of your boats ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. G03 
 
 A. The average draught is about 28 to 30 inches. 
 
 Q. What is a full cargo ? 
 
 A. Packets vary from 450 to 750 tons. 
 
 Q. During the season of low water what cargoes are you enabled to 
 bring? 
 
 A. We bring a full cargo, but have to do it on barges. Each boat 
 takes two barges. 
 
 Q. Does that materially increase the expense ? 
 
 A. It increases the expense fully 25 per cent. 
 
 Q. What is the lowest depth of water between here and Saint Paul 
 at low water ? 
 
 A. The lowest depth is on the upper end of the river, on Beef Slough 
 and Pig's Eye. In extreme low water it gets as low as 30 inches in the 
 channel. 
 
 Q. Have any improvements been made on those bars recently ? 
 
 A. They have been made for the past three years, especially the past 
 summer. 
 
 Q. What is the system of improvement; is it dredging? 
 
 A. Dredging. At Beef Slough bar they closed the head of the slough 
 on the east side of the river, and by that they increased the volume of 
 water in the main channel, and it has a tendency when the water is in- 
 creased to scour out the sands and deepen the channel. 
 
 Q. Has it been materially improved by those works ? 
 
 A. Very much. The company that I have been connected with has 
 been very largely benefitted by the improvement of last year. 
 
 Q. Do you run in competition with the rail over any part of your 
 route ? 
 
 A. We do. 
 
 Q. How much ? 
 
 A. From Dubuque to Saint Paul we are in close competition. The- 
 railroad extends all along the river. 
 
 Q. Have you any agreement with the railroads as to prices f 
 
 A. We have not any. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had any ? 
 
 A. On the river routes do you mean ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir ; on the competing parts of the line. 
 
 A. We have not any. 
 
 Q. You never had any agreement with them, have you ? 
 
 A. Not in the way of rates. Their rates govern our rates to a certain 
 extent. 
 
 Q. Do you prorate with any railroads on your line ? 
 
 A. Only in going east from La Orosse, Prairie du Chien, Dunleith r 
 and Fulton City. 
 
 Q. What are the terms upon which you do prorate ? 
 
 A. -The term is one-third to two-thirds with some of them, and with 
 one road two-fifths and three-fifths, from river points to Chicago and 
 Milwaukee. 
 
 Q. I do not understand that. Who gets the one-fifth and who the 
 two-fifths? 
 
 A. The river route gets one-fifth and the rail two-fifths. 
 
 Q. From what point to what point? 
 
 A. From La Crosse to Milwaukee. That is low. 
 
 Q. You bring from Saint Paul to La Crosse for one-fifth, and they — — 
 
 A. One-third and two-thirds, I should say. 
 
 Q. You bring them from Saint Paul to La Grosse for one-third ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; and the rail gets two- thirds. ^ 
 
(304 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Q. What is the distance you carry, and -what is the distance they 
 
 U A. The distance they carry is about thirty-five miles farther than by 
 river. 
 
 Q. Now as to the other points which you gave i 
 
 A. From Dunleith we get two-fifths and the railroad three-flitns. 
 
 Q. How do those distances compare? 
 
 A. The distance from Saint Paul to Dunleith is three hundred and 
 forty-five miles, and the distance from there to Chicago is two hundred 
 and twenty five miles. ' 
 
 Q. You prorate with no other roads but those, as I understand you. 
 Do you prorate from Clinton ? 
 
 A. Not from Clinton. The past year we have been enabled to make 
 arrangements from Fulton, just opposite Clinton. That road is con- 
 nected with a line that they do all their business there with. It is 
 known as the Diamond Joe Line. 
 
 Q. Do you know how they prorate? 
 
 A. I do not know the exact rate. My opinion is, the same as we pro- 
 rate at Dunleith with the Illinois Central ; that is, two-fifths and three- 
 fifths. 
 
 Q. What are your present charges from Saint Paul here per ton or 
 per bushel f 
 
 A. At the present time the charge is $7 per ton or 21 cents per 
 bushel. 
 
 Q. They are the same rates from Saint Paul here that they are from 
 .Saint Paul to Chicago, are they not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Those rates regulate each other somewhat ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we are governed in our rates to a certain extent by the 
 rail rates. 
 
 Q. How does that come? Usually the rail is governed by the water 
 rates, is it not ? 
 
 A. In our case, on the upper end of the river, on rail rates, since the 
 railroad has been extended through from Prairie du Chien to Saint Paul, 
 and also from La Crosse, the river rates and the rail rates have been 
 made almost equal. 
 
 Q. Is that made so by an agreement among the- companies ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You are not connected with any southern line of transportation, 
 are you ? 
 
 A. Not any. 
 
 By Mr. SHERMAN : 
 
 Q. You say the rate from Saint Paul to Chicago and to Saint Louis 
 is the same? 
 
 A. About the same. 
 
 Q. How is it from Burlington 1 
 
 A. It is less. 
 
 Q. Less to Saint Louis' than to Chicago? 
 
 A. A trifle less. One moment — I will explain. At the present time I 
 suppose our rates are about the sanie as Chicago rates — 25 cents a hun- 
 dred from Burlington here, or 15 cents a bushel. In high water the 
 river rate is nearly 50 per cent, lower than rail rate. In high water we 
 bring grain— wheat, corn, oats, and rye— at from 6 to 7 cents a bushel. 
 
 Q. How is it from Dubuque ? Is there any difference between the 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOAED. 605< 
 
 rates from Dubuqne to Chicago and from Dubuque to Saint Louis, and, 
 if so, is it in favor of the river, or how, on the average f 
 
 A. The average is in favor of the river. In high water the rates from 
 Dubuque here would be from 8 to 9 cents per bushel. 
 ' Q. How much by rail to Chicago from Dubuque ? 
 A. About from 12 to 15 cents. 
 
 Q. Tou have given the rate in high water ; now what is the average, 
 high and low, between Dubuque and here ? 
 
 A. The average would be about 11 cents by river and about 16 cents 
 by rail. 
 
 Q. How is it from Keokuk here? What is the difference between 
 freight from Keokuk here and from Keokuk to Chicago? 
 
 A. The rate is much less from Keokuk here during the entire season. 
 
 Q. That is below the falls ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is accounted for by reason of the expense in trans- 
 ferring at the rapids. 
 
 Q. Taking the forks above Keokuk to Saint Paul, is there a general 
 similarity of rates to Chicago and to Saint Louis as a rule during the 
 year round ? 
 
 A. That applies as a rule, except from Keokuk down. 
 
 Q. I speak of all points above the falls. 
 
 A. -Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It costs the same to transport commodities to Chicago that it does 
 to Saint Louis ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then Saint Louis and Chicago are competing points for all trade " 
 above the falls of Keokuk ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You say you are the president of this transportation company ? 
 
 A. No, sir; the general freight agent. 
 
 Q. Are there any other steamboat transportation companies on the 
 upper river except yours ? 
 
 A. There are. 
 
 Q. Is there active competition or is there a community ? I mean is 
 there a common arrangement among them as to rates of freight ? 
 
 A. There is a competition between the Keokuk Northern Line and 
 the line known as the Diamond Joe Line. 
 
 Q. Are there but two lines ? 
 
 A. But two lines running above Saint Louis. 
 
 Q. Do you ever arrange for common rates between each other ? 
 
 A. We have ; but it has only lasted for » short time. We have not 
 had any arrangement with the Diamond Joe Line now for over three 
 years. The name of the Diamond Joe man is Mr. Eeynolds. He makes 
 his own rates, and I make our rates for the Keokuk Northern Line Packet 
 Company. 
 
 Q. Do you not confer together and agree upon your rates in the course 
 of the season ? 
 
 A. There have been conferences between the two lines and the rail- 
 roads, but recently it has not amounted to anything. They could not 
 form an agreement that would satisfy all, and hence each line is work- 
 ing on its own resources. We are all competitors for the products of 
 the valley. 
 
 Q. What proportion of heavy freights,- No. 4 freight, wheat, grain,, 
 corn, &c, is brought down in barges, and what proportion in steam- 
 boats ? By barges I mean flats, &c. 
 
 A. Barges are what we use. We use barges the entire season through.- 
 
606 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 We use them in the spring for the reason that there is such a large 
 quantity comes forward that we have to use the barges, and we use them 
 in the fall, also, for that reason, and in the summer on account of low 
 ■water. 
 
 Q. Do you carry any wheat in bulk on your steamboats? 
 
 A. We do not carry any. It is all carried in the barges. We can- 
 not build our boats to carry grain in bulk. 
 
 Q. Do you carry it in sacks ? 
 
 A. We carry in sacks during the low water, for the reason that bulk- 
 grain cannot be transferred at the rapids at low water and compete with 
 the Chicago rates. 
 
 Q. What proportion of the grain that is shipped from ports above 
 Keokuk goes to Chicago and what proportion goes to Saint Louis for a 
 market "I 
 
 A. I should suppose about three-fourths go to Chicago and one-fourth 
 comes to Saint Louis. 
 
 Q. Is that which comes to Saint Louis consumed here ? 
 
 A. Probably I had better state the reason why it goes to Chicago. 
 To-day we are having a low-water season. At Keokuk to-day the rate 
 is seven cents and a half a bushel on corn and wheat from Keokuk here. 
 Twenty miles above, the rate is just double, and the reason is on account 
 of 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. State that again, if you please. 
 
 A. We are having a low stage of water to-day in the Mississippi. 
 The rate from Keokuk, at the foot of the rapids, is seven and a half cents 
 a bushel on wheat and corn. Twenty miles above, the charge is 15 
 cents. The reason is the expensive transfer at the Des Moines Eapids. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. What is that expense ? 
 
 A. The company I represent keeps the expense of the transfer every 
 year. One year it cost $211,000. 
 
 Q. You have not got the cost by the bushel ? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. That was your own company's expense f ' 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. How is that transfer made? 
 A. It is made in lighters on barges and on the cars. % 
 Q. How do you transship from the boat to the barge, or the cars ; 
 by an elevator 2 
 
 A. We have no elevator, and hence we cannot, in low water, bring 
 grain to Saint Louis in bulk. 
 Q. So that all you bring down by boats is brought in bags 1 
 A. Yes, sir ; entirely. That is owing to the obstruction. If the canal 
 was completed we could bring bulk-grain here the entire season, and 
 hence we get so small an amount of the grain of the Mississippi liiver 
 on account of the transfer at the rapids. The grain-buyers at the upper 
 end s.hip entirely in bulk, and they will not go to the expense of get- 
 ting sacks to ship it. It is estimated that about ten trips wears a sack 
 out. The outlay is consequently very great. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 607 
 
 Q. What do you estimate the cost per bushel in carrying by sacks as 
 against carrying in bulk, or have you made any estimate ? 
 A. We could handle it 25 per cent, less in bulk than in sacks. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Do you know whether the grain that is brought here from the 
 upper river country above Keokuk is exported from here or consumed 
 here. ? It is brought here in sacks, as I understand ; now is it consumed 
 in this place, or exported from here ? 
 
 A. In the spring of the year the greater part of it is exported to go 
 south. 
 
 Q. Does it go through elevators in bulk, or how is it transferred 
 here ? 
 
 A. It is transferred out of barges, brought here into the elevators, 
 and reloaded into large barges to take to New Orleans. 
 
 Q. The same vessels which bring grain here do not go on to New 
 Orleans. It is exchanged here? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. This is a point of transshipment, for the reason that 
 the barges used on the upper river are too small to go through. They 
 are too light in their construction. The board of underwriters require 
 a barge to go below here to be built very strong, and the result is it 
 prohibits our barges from going below. The barges below here are, on 
 the contrary, built so heavy that they cannot go above on account of 
 the rapids. 
 
 Q. When the canals are completed will there be the same necessity 
 for a transfer here into different classes of vessels ? . 
 
 A. There will not. 
 
 Q. Then the barges, you think, will go how high up the river? 
 
 A. A boat can go to Saint Paul, get a cargo, and take it back to New 
 Orleans. 
 
 Q. There will then be no necessity for transshipping? 
 
 A. No necessity, especially during the high-water season. 
 
 Q. What would be the cost of transporting wheat or corn from Saint 
 Paul to Saint Louis in case the two canals at Des Moines Rapids and 
 at the upper rapids were completed'? 
 
 A. I will explain to you. In our tariff we have six terminal points 
 where the rates terminate. For instance, a rate from Saint Paul comes 
 down to the foot of the lake or to Eeed's Landing, as we call it. Is it 
 necessary that 1 should state this particularly ? 
 
 Q. Take it in your own way. 
 
 A. As I say, we have six terminal points, and the rates, as the point 
 nears Saint Louis, are lessened. Giving a rate from Saint Paul to Saint 
 Louis probably is not explicit enough for the whole route. 
 
 By. the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Give us the rates between each of these terminal points, if you 
 remember them. 
 
 A. Prom Saint Paul to Saint Louis would be 10 cents per bushel. 
 
 Q. Eight hundred miles ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. Then from Winona it would be 9 cents per bushel. 
 
 Q. What is the distance from Saint Louis to Winona ? 
 
 A. About six hundred and sixty miles. Then we take Prairie du 
 Chien as another terminal point. We make that 8£ cents. 
 
 Q. The distance, if you please ? 
 
 A. That is five hundred and twenty-four miles. The next point is 
 Dubuque. We make that eight cents. 
 
608 TKANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By Mr. Davis: 
 
 Q. What is the number of miles I 
 
 A. Four hundred and forty-five miles. Davenport, 7 cents, three 
 hundred and fifty-four miles ; Keokuk, 5 cents, two hundred and twelve 
 miles. 
 
 By Mr. SHERMAN : 
 
 Q. I see iu this statement which you make a difference of only 
 2 cents between Davenport, which is above the falls, and Keokuk, 
 below the falls, and as I understand you the transfer costs 7 cents. 
 Perhaps I do not understand you aright. 
 
 A. How is that, sir? 
 
 Q. I understand you to make a difference between Keokuk, below the 
 falls, and Davenport, which is above the falls, of only 2 cents a bushel. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And yet I understand you to say that the cost of transfer is a good 
 deal more than that, or, say, 7 cents. Perhaps I misunderstood you. 
 
 A. Not the transfer as 7 cents. The rates I have given you were at 
 a good stage of water going over the falls. At the lower rapids that 
 rate applies when we light up, say, one-third of the boat's cargo. 
 
 Q. The rates you give are for a high stage of water ? 
 
 A. What we call a fair stage and when steamers can cross the falls 
 by lightering. That rate applies whenever they can cross the falls, even 
 if they take out the entire cargo. The custom of the trade is, when 
 the water falls we put cargo on the twp barges and keep the boat light. 
 As long as the boats can cross those rates apply. When the boat can- 
 not cross, then we adopt the present rates, which at Keokuk are 12J 
 cents per hundred, and to points above the rapids 25 cents, or 100 per 
 cent, higher, and that advance is made on account of the transfer at the 
 rapids, the expense of which is so heavy. To-day we are paying at the 
 head of the rapids 40 cents an hour to handle cargo, and the same at 
 Keokuk, making 80 cents an hour to handle a boat cargo in the two 
 transfers. 
 
 Q. "You have now given us the present cost at a good stage of water 
 when you can get over the falls; I wish you, if you please, to answer my 
 question of a little while ago. What would be the cost of transporting 
 grain from these different points when the canals are completed which 
 are now in process of construction ? I mean the canal around the Des 
 Moines and the work around the Eock Island Eapids. 
 
 A. Do you mean at a fair stage of water 1 
 
 Q. No ; I mean at an average stage of water, when you can have the 
 benefit of going through the canal, what would be the fair cost in your 
 judgment? 
 
 A. Prom Saint Paul to Saint Louis do you mean ? 
 
 Q. Tes, sir. Do you pay tolls on the canals, or are they free canals ? 
 
 A. We hope these will be free, but we have not yet been informed as 
 to that. 
 
 Q. Well, upon the assumption that they are free, what rate could you 
 transport wheat or corn from Saint Paul to Saint Louis for ? 
 
 A. I had better make two statements to give you a full comprehen- 
 sion of the matter. In the spring of the year aDd during a fair stage 
 of water, from Saint Paul here, our rates are uniform until we are com- 
 pelled to light and cross the rapids, and as the water falls then we 
 advance rates. Now, in my opinion, when these improvements are made 
 on the Eock Island Eapids, and the canal finished at the Des Moines 
 Eapids, our spring rates will prevail nearly the entire season, and hence 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 609 
 
 Saint Louis will -not be cut off from the large receipts that she will get 
 by the improvement of the Canal. 
 
 Q. In other words, you can maintain the rates that you charge now 
 in high water ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; through the entire season of navigation, by the improve- 
 ment of the two rapids. 
 
 Q. What do you count as the cost of going through these canals and 
 lockages ; the delay, &c. ? 
 
 A. The delay at the lower rapids, a distance of twelve miles, will not 
 
 exceed ; the difference between going through the canal and 
 
 across the rapids will not exceed an hour and a half, or, say, two hours 
 at the outside ; that is lockage and all. There are two pin-locks in the 
 canal. There are two lifts in the canal. We have to go through the 
 canal about one-half slower than across the rapids. So that the time in 
 crossing, outside or inside, will not exceed, say, two hours. 
 
 Q. What difference would it make if you have to pay for each of these 
 canals a tonnage tax of 25 cents a ton, carpenters' measure ? 
 
 A. For canal tolls, do you mean 1 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. 
 
 A. We could pay that and save on our expenses 500 per cent. 
 
 Q. Then the general answer is, that you would be able to transport 
 from Saint Paul and intermediate points to Saint Louis at about the 
 present rates in good ordinary water? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Those rates which you gave were the high-water rates ? 
 
 A. The spring rates, so called. 
 
 Q. And the rates you gave awhile ago are the present low-water 
 rates 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir. The present rate is 100 per cent, higher than if the 
 rapids were improved. 
 
 Q. You spoke a moment ago of the aggregate amount paid by your 
 company for transferring at the falls. What was it ? 
 
 A. Two hundred and eleven thousand dollars. 
 
 Q. Do you. know how many tons were transferred I I wish to arrive 
 at the average cost per ton for transferring. 
 
 A. I know wha,t the company I represent transferred. It was in 
 1866. There was more competition on the river than at the present 
 time. 
 
 Q. That was the time this expense was incurred ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What was the tonnage transferred that year ? 
 
 A. I do not know, for the reason that the company I represented did 
 not handle all the freight that year. There were other competing lines- 
 on the river. 
 
 Q. So that you have no way of arriving at the cost per ton of that 
 transfer ? 
 
 A. I have ; yes, sir. I have the number of packages handled by the 
 company that year. 
 
 Q. I would like to have that furnished before we leave your city. 
 
 A. I will endeavor to have it presented to you. 
 
 By Mr. SHERMAN : 
 Q. Do you not think that with free navigation and competition the rate 
 could be reduced below ten cents a bushel from Saint Paul to Saint 
 
 Louis? ■ 
 
 39 T s 
 
610 TRANSPORTATION TO THE. SEABOARD. 
 
 A. It can be. 
 
 Q. What estimate, say, would be a fair compensation for the actual 
 outlay, calculating the cost 'of vessel and all expenses of vessel, for 
 transporting wheat, with the rapids improved ? 
 
 A. It can be done for seven and a half'cents a bushel. 
 
 Q. Can it be transported at that rate by river and rail to Chicago ? 
 
 A. It cannot. 
 
 Q. Why is not that rate fixed now in the stage of water which would 
 justify you in transporting? Why do you not now carry at that rate? 
 I mean at a good stage of water. 
 
 A. I would state that there are probably three reasons. The first is, 
 that a man here is cut off by the obstructions at the Balize, below New 
 Orleans, or, rather, that the Saint Louis market is cut off by the diffi- 
 culty of exporting from New Orleans. Hence the amount of grain com- 
 ing to Saint Louis is not great enough to justify companies putting on 
 barges which would carry grain to this port cheaply ; that is, putting on 
 tow-boats that would tow from five to eight barges, loaded. A tow-boat 
 can tow from five to eight barges from Saint Paul to Saint Louis. 
 
 By Mr. Stanard : 
 
 Q. Tou mean, in other words, if you had the quantity to carry it, yon 
 could bring it at that price? 
 
 A. That is what I mean. It is quantity which cheapens transporta- 
 tion. 
 
 By Mr. CONEXING : 
 
 Q. By what line does grain go from Keokuk to Chicago ? 
 
 A. It goes by the Toledo, Wabash and'Western'Boad. 
 
 Q. Any other ? 
 
 A. The Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Boad. 
 
 Q. Any other ? 
 
 A. I cannot just name the other road. Those are the main lines. 
 
 Q. Do you know the distance ? 
 
 A. I think it is about two hundred and fifty miles. 
 
 Q. Did you state the freight by river, per bushel, from Saint Paul, 
 or Winona, to Keokuk, before you came to the occasion to transfer? 
 
 A. I did not. 
 
 Q. I mean to the point above the falls, which is Burlington. 
 
 A. The first point is Montrose, then Fort Madison, and then comes 
 Burlington. 
 
 Q. Which point corresponds with the railroad ; which is the railroad 
 station? 
 
 A. Port Madison and Burlington. Burlington is the main point. 
 
 Q. How far are those two points apart ? 
 
 A. Twenty-two miles. 
 
 Q. State the freight by liver from Saint Paul to those points. 
 
 A. On a good stage of water their rule is five cents per hundred less 
 to Burlington and Port Madison than to Saint Louis 
 
 Q. Five cents per hundred less in high water ? 
 
 A. In a fair stage of water. 
 
 Q. Is it 5 cents per hundred or per bushel ? 
 
 A. Per hundred. 
 
 Q. And by a fair stage of water do you mean a stage of water which 
 enables you to run without transfer— without transshipment ? 
 
 A. I mean a stage of water which enables us to cross the rapids with 
 the boats light — without cargo. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 611 
 
 . Q. That is 5 cents less than to Saint Lo.uis. i)o you know the charges 
 on that same grain from Burlington to Chicago ? 
 
 A. It is about 15 cents per bushel. 
 
 Q. Are the rates on each of the roads the same ? 
 
 A. Very nearly the same. 
 
 Q. Varying somewhat with the season of the year ? 
 
 A. Varying a little. The rate is lower during the summer than it is 
 spring and fall. 
 
 Q. Lower than it is in the winter, I suppose ? 
 
 A. The highest rate prevails in the winter. All along the Mississippi 
 Valley as soon as navigation' is suspended all the railroads put up their 
 rates. 
 
 Q. That, I suppose, they put upon the ground, first, that it costs some- 
 what more to cary in winter, and second, that there is a block of freight; 
 a great demand for freight, and that their rolling-stock, and all that, is 
 ■overtaxed ? 
 
 A. That is the reason in part. I think the main reason is, however, 
 that they have the trade to themselves and they can make an arbitrary 
 rate. 
 
 Q. Yes; but I say they justify it upon the grounds that I have sug- 
 gested f 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Can you state the relative market-value of wheat arid corn in 
 Chicago and Saint Louis ; I mean the general market- value ? 
 
 A. The market- value of all the cereals is generally a little higher here 
 than in Chicago. 
 
 Q. Are you able to give us any tables which will show the running 
 value of wheat and corn in Chicago and Saint Louis compared °l 
 
 A. You can get those through the secretary of the Merchants' Ex- 
 change. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. Let me understand one thing further. What is the freight from 
 Saint Paul here now ? You have stated it ; please state it again. 
 
 A. Twenty-one cents per bushel. 
 
 Q. Now to Burlington it is 5 cents less. That is 16 cents a bushel 1 ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. From Burlington to Chicago it is fifteen cents. That is 31? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So that, if I understand you, using river to Burlington and rail 
 from Burlington to Chicago, corn is laid down 
 
 A. Excuse me. You apply a bushel there to a hundred. It is 21 
 cents a bushel to Saint Louis, and it is 18 cents to Burlington-. 
 
 Q. Then preserving the same measurement of a hundred- weight it is 
 18 cents and not 15 from Burlington to Chicago ? 
 
 A. You asked me the rate from Saint Paul to Saint Louis, and from 
 Saint Paul to Burlington. The rate is 21 cents a bushel to Saint Louis, 
 and 18 cents a bushel to Burlington. 
 
 Q. Instead of its being 5 cents less, then, if is 3 cents less, counting 
 by the bushel? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much is it per hundred pounds from Saint Paul here ? 
 
 A. Thirty-five cents per hundred. 
 
 Q. And 21 cents per bushel ? 
 
612 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And 18 cents to Burlington 1 
 
 A. Tes, sir ; per bushel ; and 30 cents per hundred. 
 Q. Eighteen cents and 15 are the two freights from Saint Paul to 
 Chicago by river and rail. Is that right ? 
 
 A. That does not give the rate. Wheat from Saint Paul does not 
 come as low 'down as Burlington. Fulton City is the lowest point. 
 
 Q. Let me begin again and see if we cannot understand each other. 
 By what line does grain get from the Mississippi Biver above here to 
 Chicago % 
 
 A. It goes by four routes. Shall I name them 1 
 
 Q. If you please. 
 
 A. Prom La Crosse, Prairie du Chien, Dunleith, and Fulton City. 
 
 Q. Which of these routes carries the most 1 
 
 A. La Crosse. 
 
 Q. Now let us take that and adhere to it. What is the freight from 
 Saint Paul to La Crosse by river? and speak, if you please, of bushels,' 
 and not of hundred pounds. 
 
 A. Of the grain that is going east we make a through rate. 
 
 Q. I will come to that in a moment; but first, if you please, answer 
 the question. What is the freight — for whether it is the proportion of 
 a through freight or a freight by itself, of course you know the amount — 
 what is the freight from Saint Paul to La Crosse by river, speaking of 
 bushels'? 
 
 A We carry no local freight to La Crosse — no local grain. That is 
 not the terminal point of shipment. 
 
 Q. Do you not know how much is allowed on a bushel of wheat from 
 Saint Paul to La Crosse, no matter where it is going to, if it goes by 
 river ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you not state, then, how much it is ? 
 
 A. I omitted to bring my freight tariff. If I had it here I would give 
 it exactly. There is now a new tariff. 
 
 Q. I do not care about the new tariff. Take the old tariff. How 
 much is it on the last tariff you remember from Saint Paul to La Crosse, 
 on a bushel 1 
 
 A. I will state here that the upper end of the river is in charge of 
 our general superintendent, and he has charge of all those rates. 
 
 Q. Pp you know the rates yourself, sir ? 
 
 A. I do by referring to the tariff. 
 
 Q- If you know it, and if you can state it, please do so. If you do' not 
 know it, of course I will not press you. 
 
 A. [Calculating.] It is about 6 cents a bushel. 
 
 Q. Six cents a ' bushel 'from Saint Paul to La Crosse ? 
 
 A. Yes', sir. 
 
 Cj. How far is that ? 
 
 A. One hundred and seventy miles. 
 
 Q. From La Crosse to'Ohicago is how far by rail ? 
 
 A. About two hundred and sixty miles. 
 
 Q. Put those two sums together, if you please. 
 
 A. Four hundred and thirty. 
 
 Q. Now, it is 6 cents to La Crosse; how much is it from La Crosse to 
 Chicogo, by rail, per bushel ? 
 
 A. About 9 cents. 
 
 Q. That is 15 cents for four hundred and thirty miles ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
' TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 613 
 
 . Q. How much, now, do you say it is a bushel from Saint Paul to 
 Saint Louis 1 ." 
 
 A. Twenty-one cents. 
 
 Q. How many miles is that ? 
 
 A. Eight hundred miles. 
 
 Q. Now, taking- that bushel of grain of which we are speaking, what 
 is it worth in Chicago, taking corn or wheat, as y6u know each? 
 
 A. Compared with Saint Louis? 
 
 Q. I was coming to that, but my question is simply how much is that 
 bushel of grain worth now in Chicago ? 
 
 A. I should have to refer 'to the secretary to see. He says $1. 
 
 Q. How much is it worth in Saint Louis ? 
 
 A. A dollar and two cents it was sold at yesterday. 
 
 Q. Does that statement fairly illustrate the difference of value of a 
 given grade of grain in Saint Louis and Chicago the year round ? 
 
 Mr. George Bain. Allow me. Captain Mason is not in this busi- 
 ness and would not know anything about it. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. [To Mr. Bain.] Will you be good enough to give me the informa- 
 tion at this moment. We will take it hereafter, but I wish to ask a ques- 
 tion which is in the captain's line. How does grain of a given grade 
 compare in price in Chicago and Saint Louis ? 
 
 A: At certain seasons of the year, when freights are low between 
 Chicago and Buffalo and on the Erie Canal, wheat- is higher in Chicago 
 than in Saint Louis. When we have got an interior southern demand 
 for flour, which we always have during the winter, wheat is higher here, 
 sometimes as much as 12, 15, or 20 cents a bushel, than in Chicago. 
 
 Q. Now, if you please, speaking of foreign-bound grain, going to Eu- 
 rope, how do the two markets of Chicago and Saint Louis compare with 
 each other ? 
 
 A. The Grain Association of Saint Louis, while making the test about 
 this climatic difficulty that was talked so much about, paid more for 
 grain here than the same quality of grain was worth in Chicago. 
 
 Q. How much more? 
 
 A. Well, from 3 to 5 cents per bushel at that time. 
 
 Q. What time was that ? 
 
 A. That was in 1869, four years ago. 
 
 Q. Now, if you please, speaking of this year, which I suppose is as good 
 an example as any, how has the grain-market at Chicago and at Saint 
 Louis compared ; and I do not want to take an exceptional case of grain 
 here for internal southern consumption, or for some special purpose 
 anywhere else. I wish to take the general flow of prices at different 
 seasons. 
 
 A. The price of each has been about the same here as in Chicago. 
 The price of corn and oats has been higher here than in Chicago as an 
 average. There have been occasional instances where they were lower 
 here, but very seldom. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. [To Captain Mason.] I was going to ask you about this through 
 rate. Take grain at Saint Paul for an eastern market, how far is it 
 billed? 
 
 A. To Chicago. 
 
 Q. And this rate which you have given me, dividing it into 9 cents 
 and 6 cents, represents the through rate ? 
 
614 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; 15 cents per bushel. ' 
 
 Q. Suppose you. carry that same bushel of grain to La Crosse and 
 stop it there, do you charge more than 6 cents ? 
 
 A. We do. 
 
 Q. How much more? 
 
 A. We charge about one-quarter more. 
 
 Q. That would be a cent and a half more, or 7J cents ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Suppose the railroad takes that grain, not on a through freight 
 from you, but in the first instance at La Crosse, and carries it to Chi. 
 cago, how much more does it charge? ' • 
 
 A. About 25 per cent. more. 
 
 Q. That would be 2 cents and a quarter more 1 . 
 ' A. Yes, sir. I will state that there is some wheat billed through to 
 Buffalo, which is a terminal point, and flour is very often billed through 
 to New York. 
 
 Q. Does that make any difference in the rate? 
 
 A. It makes a lower rate. 
 
 Q. How much lower does it make it if you bill to Buffalo than if you 
 bill to Chicago ? ' 
 
 A. On a through rate you would make, say, 15 per cent. 
 
 Q. That is, you deduct 15 per cent, of freight billing to Buffalo 
 instead of billing to Chicago. Suppose you bill from New York, how 
 much more do you deduct? 
 
 A. That is my rate to New York. 
 
 Q. 1 asked you about Buffalo ; 15 per cent, reduction from New York, 
 you say. Now, how much is the reduction to Buffalo? 
 
 A. I am not well enough posted to give you the information which I 
 should like to. I should like to have it represented exactly as it is. I 
 will state this : that connecting lines in billing through, the farther dis- 
 tance the freight is billed the lower the rate. The connecting lines pro- 
 rate the reduction. Chicago is the terminal point for nearly the entire 
 cereals of the Upper Mississippi, and also Milwaukee is ; but some ship- 
 pers bill through to Buffalo, and there are large amounts of flour billed 
 through to New York. I might state in general terms that in billing 
 through to New York the rate is proportionately lower than to Chicago. 
 
 Q. Does this reduction of freight the farther it extends fall equally 
 upon the river and the rail ? 
 
 A. It does. 
 
 Q. So that you bear the same percentage of reduction that the railroad 
 does ? 
 
 A. The river bears the greater percentage. 
 
 Q. Then it does not fall equally, does it ? 
 
 A. On a long distance it does not fall equally. I had better state that 
 it does not fall equally. 
 
 Q. Does it fall equally in proportion to distance ? 
 
 A. It is largely in favor of the river. 
 
 Q. How in favor of the river ? Do you mean that less falls on the 
 river than on the rail ? 
 
 A. I should state that the rate is lower on the river than on the rail. 
 
 Q. Then it falls unequally, and heaviest on the river ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; it falls the smallest. State the question again, and let 
 me get the drift of it. 
 
 Q. I will. You have a certain distance from Saint Paul to La Crosse, 
 and the railroad has a certain distance from La. Crosse to Chicago? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 615 
 
 . Q. Then there is a certain distance from there to New York. You 
 have told us that on goods billed through from Saint Paul to Buffalo 
 there is a reduction per cent., and billed through to New York a still 
 greater reduction per cent. I ask you whether' that reduction falls 
 equally upon the river and the rail in proportion to the number of miles 
 which each carries it, and if it falls unequally I ask you to state the 
 inequality. 
 
 A. It is equal. 
 
 Q. You say now that it falls equally upon the river and the rail each, 
 according to the distance that each carries. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. Excuse me ; I got the impression as we progressed in 
 the question that you wanted me to state the comparison between the 
 river and the rail route. I got that mixed .up with the question, which 
 was the reason I asked you to repeat it. 
 
 Q. But now you state it as you mean ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. What are the number of vessels in the Diamond Joe Line? 
 A. They have six steamers. 
 Q. What number have you in your line ? 
 A. We have twenty-three. 
 Q. How do they compare in size? 
 A. Our line of steamers are a size larger than theirs. 
 
 Examination of John A. ScUdder, president of the Memphis and 
 SaintLouis Packet Company. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Please state the obstructions in the Mississippi Biver from 
 here to Cairo, and also between Cairo and New Orleans, if you can give 
 them. 
 
 Answer. What kind of obstructions do you mean ? 
 
 Q. The general character of the obstructions. 
 
 A. The obstructions between this and New Orleans are mainly be- 
 tween here and Cairo. They are sunken wrecks, snags, and logs washed 
 in from the banks of the river. 
 
 Q. Describe in general, terms the nature of the obstructions. 
 
 A. Take, for instance, the wreck of a steamboat, sunk, probably, 
 years ago. That wreck, when it sinks, will, form a bar, so called, and 
 very frequently an island will form on that obstruction. In the course 
 of years, when that is forgotten, the channel of the river will change, 
 probably, on to the head of the island and wash it away again — wash 
 the island entirely away, leaving the wreck there, and those are the 
 wrecks which give us a great deal of trouble. 
 
 Q. How many of those are there ? 
 
 A. There are a very large number. I would hardly undertake to say, 
 but I suppose there are five thousand wrecks between this and Cairo 
 alone. I speak now of all the boats that are sunk. 
 
 Q. Those are steamboats and barges ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I should say that the navigation of the river has been 
 improving ever since my knowledge. The running of steamboats over 
 the river improves it. We are becoming more familiar with those 
 wrecks. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. I wish you would describe the nature of the obstruction sof bars — 
 the formation of bars across the river. 
 
616 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. Wo do not consider a bar an obstruction. . It is an obstruction in 
 a certain sense; but a bar is formed where the channel goes into two or 
 three places, For instance, on the head of an island, a part of the water- 
 will go down on one side of that island and a part down the other, and 
 that is always a shoal place, or what is called a bar or obstruction. An 
 obstruction by a bar is always where the river is divided and not where 
 the water is confined to one channel. 
 
 Q. Do these bars change from year to year % 
 
 A. Yes, sir. We do not know what does change them, of course, but 
 very frequently they are changed by a wreck sinking. 
 
 Q. The current of the river changes them, I suppose? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; it seems to take but very little to change the channel. 
 
 Q. Are they improved by dredging ? 
 
 A. It temporarily improves them, sir. While they are working it will 
 do "so. Dredging, however, fills up in two or three hours. It does not 
 amount to anything except while they are working at it. 
 
 Q. According to your experience, what form of improvement has 
 proven most serviceable ? 
 
 A. By wrecking-boats taking out the obstructions. 
 
 Q. What has been the effect of the construction of these wing-dams? 
 
 A. We have had none below here, in my observation, but my opinion 
 is that they will do very good service. 
 
 Q. They confine the water in a given channel ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Does not the current often strike against the bank, and make an 
 entire new channel, cutting out the bank I 
 
 A. O, yes, very frequently. For instance, where there is a soft bar 
 and the river runs- into a close bend, it will frequently wash in until it 
 gets very deep in the bend, and the river then will shoot off in another 
 direction, and that bend will fill up. As the river cuts out into the bend, 
 probably next season, that bend will fill up, and the water will change 
 again out into the original channel. 
 
 Q. Are there cases where the wing-dam has itself been left on a bar 
 and a new channel made between the wing-dam and the river 1 
 
 A. I do not know of any such cases, but I should suppose that might 
 occur. There are none built between here and Few Orleans yet. In 
 this river it would be more likely to do so than it would in the Ohio 
 Eiver. In the Ohio Eiver there is not much cutting of the banks, nor is 
 there the same volume' of water. Where a wing-dam would answer a 
 very good purpose in the Mississippi it might now answer in the Ohio. 
 
 Q. What is generally tbe bed of the Mississippi Eiver ? 
 
 A. Quicksand. 
 
 Q. Is there any rock foundation or gravel 1 
 
 A. Very little. We do not know of but one place between here and 
 Cairo ; and none that we know of below there, where there is a rock or 
 sand foundation. We have one between here and Cairo of a gravelly 
 bar kind. 
 
 Q. All the rest is alluvial ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What was the cause of those numerous wrecks ? 
 
 A. Sunken boats never removed by the Government. There was the 
 great trouble. It is my opinion that the wrecks of the river increase 
 the cost of transportation more than everything else combined. That 
 is my experience beyond any question. Even the want of water 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 617 
 
 is not so great as the cost of these very wrecks that I speak of. To 
 demonstrate that to you more fully, our boats going out here draw 4£ 
 and 5 feet of water. There is a good 6 feet from here to Cairo now, 
 but we are afraid to put the freight in the boats on account of these 
 very obstructions. An ordinary-size boat, such as ours, will carry 
 twenty tons to the inch. We are now loading 5 feet where there is 6 
 feet in the river. They will carry, as I say, twenty tons to the inch, 
 and that is two hundred and forty or two hundred and fifty tons that 
 they would go without, on account of these very wrecks. Our boats 
 have to be built for these wrecks very much stronger, and they 
 cost a very large amount more, of course increasing the insurance and 
 everything of that kind. 
 
 Q. How do you account for so large a number of these wrecks origin- 
 ally 1 . 
 
 A, Well, for years, ever since the river was navigated, these wrecks 
 have been sinking and lying there. There is no estimating the num- 
 ber, of course, but I think five thousand would be a small estimate on 
 the number lying between here and Cairo alone. We can count in one 
 bend that we know of fifty or sixty steamboats. 
 
 Q. What is that bend called? 
 
 A. They have given it two or three names lately. It is called Goose 
 Island. We call it the Grave- Yard. But, fortunately for the river, 
 when one of these Wrecks sinks, the channel will And its way somewhere 
 else, or else the river would be unnavigable. The character of the river 
 is such that whenever the wreck sinks, the channel cuts around it and 
 would cut the bank away around it. 
 
 Q. And deposits are made on it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. My theory is that when these wrecks sink they never 
 stop settling. They settle until there is nothing left above the decks 
 except the cylinder timbers, perhaps. They will settle then with the 
 bottom of the river. It is quicksand, and when the sand washes off of 
 them, and the channel changes over them again, that, you see, is a very 
 serious obstruction. We run this river almost entirely by sight — by 
 watching for these breaks. Our company has, this season, made a large 
 number of buoys, and are buoying these wrecks ourselves at our own 
 cost. I do- not think our people here realize what these wrecks are 
 costing. For instance, you may take one of Captain Mason's Mississippi 
 boats. These boats do not pass insurance below here at all. Their 
 river closes about the 15th of November. Our river here, in ordinary 
 seasons, is open until the first of January, or the latter part of Decem- 
 ber. Now that tonnage which is perfectly useless up there might be 
 brought down and utilized below, but it cannot be done because they 
 do not insure, in consequence of these wrecks and sways. Our boats 
 are built large and heavy. Their ordinary boats will not cost over 
 $30,000 or $40,000, while ours cost $130,000. They have some boats, 
 but very few ol them which cost more than $30,000 or $40,000, and, as 
 I say, ours cost upon an average $120,000. They have been made very 
 strong, making them draw more water. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. What is the difference in the tonnage of vessels up and down the 
 river? 
 
 A. Our boats are a little smaller than the New Orleans boats. The 
 tonnage of our. boats will average, I. suppose, nearly a thousand tons. 
 • Theirs will average about six hundred. But you see those boats cannot 
 run below here in consequence of these very wrecks. 
 
618 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. State the number of lines of vessels, running from here to all points 
 south, making this their terminal point. 
 
 A. Our own company runs three lines. Would you call that one, or 
 three.? 
 
 Q. We will call that three under one control. 
 
 A. There are seven lines of boats, I think, below here. 
 
 Q. That is, seven lines, counting yours as three ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How are those other four lines controlled '; by one company, or by 
 more? 
 
 A. By each one separately. 
 
 Q. Can you give us the number of boats in all those lines separately? 
 . A. No, sir, I cannot. We have twelve, and I suppose there are 
 twenty-five others to New Orleans ; that would make thirty-seven. 
 
 Q. You have twelve in your three lines? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I mean regular boats engaged in that trade. There are 
 a large number of other boats that run there. 
 
 Q. A large number of other boats not in any line ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any combination between those lines ? 
 
 A. None at all. 
 
 Q. Then there are barge lines in addition ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; which have as much tonnage as the whole steamboat 
 tonnage. 
 
 Q. How are those barges propelled, by tug or steamer? 
 
 A. I do not know whether you would call it a tug. It is what we call 
 a tow-boat. You mean by a tug, I suppose, one of these Chicago tugs. 
 We cannot use them, however, on our river on account of the shoalness 
 of the water. 
 
 Q. You call them tow-boats ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. They are built the same as a steamboat, except the stern- 
 wheel. 
 
 Q. Do your rates materially differ at different seasons ? 
 
 A. Very much, sir. 
 
 Q. For what reason ? 
 
 A. By reason of these obstructions, mainly, and low water, of course. 
 The obstructions are never in the way except during low water. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 Q. How far is it by river from St. Paul to Prairie du Chien ? 
 A. (By Captain Mason.) Two hundred and eighty miles. 
 Q. Will you state the freight per bushel from St. Paul there ? 
 A. It would be 6 cents per bushel. 
 Q. The same as it is to La Crosse ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Henry C. Haarstick, vice-president and general superintendent of . 
 the Mississippi Valley Transportation Company. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. What does that company of yours include? 
 Answer. It is a company which transports freight from here to New 
 Orleans in barges exclusively. 
 Q. Please state the character of those barges, giving us a description 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 619 
 
 of them, so that we will understand what they are, and the nature of 
 the transportation ? 
 
 A. We have three or four different sizes. They are barges built very 
 strongly, somewhat similar to the hull of a steamboat, with no machin- 
 ery on them but what we call cargo docks, perhaps twelve, or thirteen, 
 or fourteen feet high above the deck of the barge. They are all the way 
 from 180 to 220 feet long ; from 30 to 41 feet beam, and from 6 to 9 feet 
 hold.. 
 
 Q. What is the tonnage? 
 
 A. One size is 650 tons, another size is 1,000 tons, and - another size 
 is 1,500 tons. 
 
 Q. Can you run those at all seasons of the year ? 
 
 A. We run them at all seasons of the year, excepting when there is 
 ice in the river. 
 
 Q. What is the time of a round trip from here to New Orleans with 
 one of those barges ? 
 
 A. That is Owing a good deal to the stage of water, and the season of 
 the year. In high water we can make a round trip say in twenty days, 
 on an average, and perhaps less sometimes. 
 
 Q. How many do you take in a convoy, or whatever you call it ? 
 
 A. In .a tow we take from three to five, owing to the amount of 
 freight. 
 
 Q. What is the cost of those barges ? 
 
 A. They cost from $7,000 to $14,000 complete, the cost varying with 
 the size. 
 
 Q, What is the cost of tow ? 
 
 A. The tow-boat and barges together would cost $110,000 to $120,000. 
 
 Q. Do you mean by that a tow-boat and two barges? 
 
 A. No, sir ; a tow-boat and from three to five.barges. I am now figur- 
 ing on a full tow. 
 
 Q. How many men do you employ on those full tows ? 
 
 A. It takes perhaps twenty-five in all, including captain, pilots, en- 
 gineers, mate, firemen, &c. 
 
 Q. What is the compensation for the ordinary employes, the work- 
 men—the laborers ? 
 
 A. From thirty-five to forty dollars per month. 
 
 Q. What is the compensation of the officers ? 
 
 A. The captain's pay is $200; the pilots receive $250 each; the en- 
 gineers receive, one, $135, the other $75, making $210 ; the mate 
 receives $100; the- steward $75 : the firemen $60; and the other men 
 from thirty-five to forty dollars. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Have you ever made an estimate of the cost of running tows down 
 to New Orleans and back, the round trip ? 
 
 A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. What is it? 
 
 A. That is owing a good deal to the amount of freight you carry. 
 As you will perceive if we take down 4,000 tons, or 3,000 or 2,000 tons 
 to a tow, the labor upon them, loading it and unloading it, will be 
 greater for 4,000 tons than it would for 2,000 tons. 
 
 Q. Do you know what it is without reference to loading and unloading ? 
 
 A. I could give you those figures, but I do not know that I could do 
 so now. 
 
 Q. What do you understand to be a fair compensation per ton during 
 a good stage of water for transporting from here to New Orleans? 
 
620 TRANSPORTATION TO. THE SEABOARD. 
 
 •A. With plenty of business and a good stage of water we can take 
 freight down at 15 cents a hundred to New Orleans ; that is $3 a ton. 
 
 Q. And make a fair profit out'of if? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any expense in running those barges except the compen- 
 sation of the men and officers ; fuel, interest on the investment, and 
 the maintenance of the vessels themselves? 
 
 A. There are sure expenses, so called, outside of officers at this place, 
 at Cairo, and N&w Orleans, such as wharfage. We pay a very large 
 amount of wharfage both here and at New Orleans and Cairo, for the 
 privilege of landing and discharging. 
 
 Oj. Can you give us an idea of the amount of the wharfage ? 
 
 A. I think the wharfage in New Orleans is 30 cents a ton, 10 for river 
 and 20 for river, on the registered tonnage of our barges. Whether 
 those barges are loaded or not makes no difference. For instance, in 
 low water, a fifteen hundred ton barge carries into New Orleans only 
 six hundred tons, but we have to pay wharfage on fifteen hundred tons, 
 and it is the same way at Saint Louis* Here the charge is five cents a 
 ton. 
 
 Q. What is it at Cairo? 
 
 A. There it is nominal. It is for landing, five or ten dollars for each 
 time of landing. 
 
 Q. Are there any other wharfage expenses between here and New 
 Orleans? 
 
 A. We only land at Cairo and New Orleans. 
 
 Q. Then aside from those expenses there are none others except 
 what you have named? 
 
 A. No r sir. 
 
 Q. Do you ever make- through rates from here to Liverpool ? 
 
 A. We have in one or two instances only. One reason why we have 
 not been able to do that is that the lines have not been able to run reg- 
 ularly ; in other words, they could not tell what the water at the mouth 
 of the river would be, and they never would make regular rates and 
 take their chances on the water and on the freight when they would get 
 in. 
 
 Q. Your company has no connection with any steamboat lines, has 
 it? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You are rather in competition with the steamboats, are you not ! 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is that barge business increasing or decreasing ? 
 
 A. It is increasing very much. 
 
 Q. You do not carry in bulk at all, do you 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you carry grain altogether in bulk ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we are carrying in. bulk both ways. We are the only 
 company which carries in bulk south. We carry bulk grain for less 
 than we do package freight. 
 
 Q. Why? 
 
 A. It costs us less labor to load and unload, and we make that distinc- 
 tion. 
 
 Q. In the rates which were given to the committee a few moments 
 ago by the barge system, your loading and unloading is included, is it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that includes all. 
 
 Q. What are the chief obstructions to that system of navigation be- 
 tween here and New Orleans, if any ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 621 
 
 • A. The sand-bars and snags are the principal obstructions. 
 
 Q. In what way do they interfere with your travel ? 
 
 A. In low water we can only load our barges to one-half of the depth 
 that we could in high water. In low water it takes a longer time to 
 make a trip than it does in high water, because if you get to a bad 
 place, as we call it, in the river, in the evening, you have to lay by until 
 next morning at daylight to get over that place, whereas if we had 
 plenty of water we could go along without stopping, as we do in the 
 spring with high water. 
 
 Q. Exclusively of the cost of loading and unloading, does it cost 
 you any more to carry a full barge load than a half-lull barge load 1 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you estimate the cost, per ton, of loading and unloading, 
 or have you any estimates ? 
 
 A. Of bulk, ib costs us, perhaps, 30 cents. 
 
 Q.' Per hundred or per ton ? 
 
 A. Per ton. Qf package freight it costs, perhaps, 80 — from 75 to 
 80 cents. 
 
 Q. By package freight would you include wheat iu sacks, and oats 
 and corn in sacks, flour in barrels, pork and lard ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I)o you mean to say that 30 cents is the cost of loading and un- 
 loading? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; of bulk, and I do not know but that is a little more 
 than the average. 
 
 Q. How do you unload at New Orleans from bulk cargoes ? 
 
 A. We have two elevators, there ; one a transfer elevator, and another 
 a regular elevator. 
 
 Q. And you load in the same way here, do you not % 
 
 A. We load here at the elevators. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q, At a floating elevator, or on the land ? 
 
 A. Here we have only elevators on land. We have not a floating 
 elevator here. I would make a correction in one thing, that is the cost 
 of labor oh bulk-cargo. In. place of its being 30 cents a ton it is only 
 15 cents. 
 
 Q. And you leave it at 80 cents on the package % 
 
 A. From 75 to 80 cents. 
 
 Q, Does that include both ends 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; my statement means both loading and unloading. 
 
 Q. Now, as to the elevators, will you be kind enough to state what 
 facilities, you have here and at New Orleans t 
 
 A. We have four elevators berg. We have elevators here which can 
 handle and give to us, I suppose, two hundred thousand bushels, and 
 upwards, in twenty-four hows. At New Orleans our facilities are not 
 so great- The facilities there are, perhaps, not W forty thousand 
 bushels in twenty-four hours' to. discharge. 
 
 Q. Are they on laud or watej? 
 
 A. Both. One is, as we call it, a transfer elevator, or an elevator that 
 is on hull. The other is on land. 
 
 Q. I understood you to state a moment ago that grain, or rather any- 
 thing of fourth-class heavy freight, should go to New Orleans for $3 per 
 ton. Did i understand you aright 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the charge now 1 
 
622 TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOAED. 
 
 A. Oar charge now is $6. 
 
 Q. Is there any shipped from here by rail to New Orleans I 
 
 A. They could hardly compete at that figure. 
 
 Q. That is not the question, sir. 
 
 A. I do not know of any going. 
 
 Q. Do you know what the rail rate is to-day from here to New 
 Orleans 1 Our object is to get the difference between the rail and water 
 rate. 
 
 A. I do not know what the fourth-class rate is. They are not in com- 
 petition with us. 
 
 Q. Why is it that it ought to be done for $3 and that $6 is charged 
 by water ? 
 
 A. We have only about 4£ feet of water between here and Cairo, and 
 only 5J between Cairo and Vicksburgh ; hence three-fourths of the whole 
 distance is low water, and as we can carry only about 40 per cent, of the 
 freight in the same barges now that we could when we have high water, 
 and as the cost of it to run a tow now and back is greater than it would 
 be in high water, hence the difference. In other words, the receipts for 
 towing now are no larger on fifteen hundred than they would be on three 
 thousand tons in high water. 
 
 Q. In a good stage of water what is your regular charge ; I under- 
 stood you had some regular charge between here and New Orleans % 
 
 A. In high water do you mean ? 
 
 Q. Tes, sir. 
 
 A. We have carried freight for 15 cents a hundred, and even less, 
 for three months right straight along. 
 
 Q. Is that the charge now in a good stage of water ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. Fifteen cents a hundred? 
 
 A. Tes, sir ; we have carried it as low as 12^ cents. ' 
 
 By Mr. Sheeman.: 
 
 Q. I wish to get at the elements of the cost of freight between this 
 and New Orleans. Say heavy freight for shipment to foreign markets.. 
 Ton say 9 cents per bushel. Is that the average. taking the year round, 
 or is it only the rate during the best of the season 1 
 
 A. No, sir ; the best of the high-water season we carry freight for 
 less than 9 cents a bushel. 
 
 Q. What is your lowest rate ? 
 
 A. We have carried it this year as low as 7 cents a bushel — corn that 
 went for export. 
 
 Q. What portions of the year would that' be 1 
 
 A. That would be during April, May, June, July, and perhaps a part 
 of August, if the river would keep up. It is all owing to the stage of 
 water. 
 
 Q. What proportion of the year at 9 cents ? 
 
 A. The balance of the year we generally have low water or ice," and 
 of course rates go up and down with water. 
 
 Q. Would you put it at 9 cents the average, or is that below the 
 average or above it ? 
 
 A. No, sir; I think that is very near the average. 
 
 Q. Is that as low in your opinion as wheat can be transported between 
 Saint Louis and New Orleans, in case the proposed wing-dams are 
 made ; is that what you would call a fair compensation for this work, 
 after these improvements are made ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I think we could carry it for less. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 623 
 
 Q. How much less 1 
 
 A. Perhaps a cent and a half per bushel less. 
 
 Q. That would bring it to 7£ cents f 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You think that would be the minimum rate at which this business 
 could be done "? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; of course everything would have to be very favorable. 
 We would have to have an outlet at the lower 'end of the river, where 
 we claim we have none now. 
 
 Q. Can you state what is the cost of shipping grain from New 
 Orleans to Liverpool with the present inconvenience at the mouth of 
 the Mississippi River 1 
 
 A. Freights have been as low this year as 11 pence, and as high as 
 16 pence. 
 
 Q. Put that in cents, if you please. 
 
 A. That would make it 22 cents and 30 cents per bushel of sixty 
 pounds. 
 
 Q. That is freight from New Orleans to Liverpool ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is that exceptionally low ? 
 
 A. Eleven pence, or 22 cents, is, perhaps, lower than it usually is. 
 
 Q. What would be the average, taking the year round, of trans- 
 portation from New Orleans to Liverpool 1 
 
 A. I should think 14 pence, or 28 cents, would be an average rate by 
 steam. 
 
 Q. What reduction could be made on that rate if the proposed canal 
 at Port Saint Philip was made, making a navigation of 25 feet of 
 water by "canal. In the first place, however, are you familiar with the 
 place and with the proposed improvement ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What would be the rate, then, in case that improvement was 
 made ? In yonr judgment to what extent would that reduce the rate ? 
 
 A. I think steamers would be glad to get 20 cents, or 10 pence, the 
 year round, and that they could make money. 
 
 Q. Then the possibilities of this route from St. Louis to Liverpool 
 would be 27^ cents a bushel for wheat, in case the river was improved 
 at the mouth of the Mississippi, and along the line of the Mississippi? 
 
 A. There would be an extra charge of elevator transfer at New Or- 
 leans, beside, of a cent a bushel, which would make it 28J cents. 
 
 Q. That you think is the minimum possibility of this trade 1 ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you explain to me the reason why it costs but 5 cents to 
 transport wheat from Chicago to Buffalo, and 7J cents, under the most 
 favorable circumstances, from Saint Louis to New Orleans ; is it in the 
 cost of the boats or the danger's of navigation on the river ? 
 
 A. The distance is the element. It is twelve hundred and fifty miles 
 . from here to New Orleans! 
 
 Q. What is the distance from Chicago to Buffalo ? 
 
 A. It is between ten and eleven hundred miles, I think. 
 . Q. In what respect is the navigation of the Mississippi more dan- 
 gerous or more expensive than the navigation of the lakes ? In other 
 words, what advantages has one over the other in any respect 1 
 
 A. I do not see any advantage, particularly in the lakes, over the 
 Mississippi River, providing the river was improved — that is, provided 
 the sand-bars and snags were out of the river. 
 
624 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Q. Then there is the advantage in favor of the river of no danger of 
 storms, &c.? 
 
 A. Yes. sir. ...■.* 
 
 Q. What would be the effect of the return trip against the stream, m 
 the way of increasing the cost of navigation ? 
 
 A. That, of course, would be unfavorable as regards the river. 
 
 Q. Have you return freight from New Orleans sufficient to give you 
 a return-load ? 
 
 A. We have not now, but we hope to have. 
 
 Q. What would you expect to carry? 
 
 A. Expect to carry imported goods, and do now carry a great many. 
 Since the organization of our company we have made it a study to have 
 freight come that way. We went to our importers here and gave them 
 a yearly rate of freight on imports never to be changed. 
 
 Q. Is that business of importing goods directly increasing here? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; very much in the last five or six years'. 
 
 Q. What are the kinds of imports brought here? 
 
 A. There has been a great deal of railroad iron, crates of earthen- 
 ware, tin, soda-ash, steel. I do not know that I could name anything 
 else ; groceries, coffee, sugar. There has been a very large amount of 
 sugar, liquors and wines. 
 
 Q. gtate the. minimum rate at which you carry on this up-river busi- 
 ness, bringing up return-freight. 
 
 A. It is about 16 cents a hundred, minimum rate. 
 
 Q. What is your ordinary charge for up-freight per hundred — say 
 cotton, &c, ? 
 
 A. They run all the way from 15 to 20 cents a hundred. 
 
 Q. To what extent is cotton brought up the river from New Orleans 
 to Saint Louis 1 
 
 A. I do not know of any that is coming from New Orleans this way. 
 The cotton which comes here comes from points farther up the river, 
 such as Memphis. 
 
 Q. Of course the trade carries ^he cotton eastward ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; cotton goes to New Orleans, in place of coming up the 
 river. 
 
 Q. Is there any cotton brought by way of the Ohio River ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; there is from points, as high up as Memphis. 
 
 Q. There are no cotton factories here ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think there are two or three. Three I know of. 
 
 Q. Where would they get their cotton to supply their mills 1 
 
 A. They get it from Memphis. We have cotton arriving here most 
 every day. They also get it by the railroads southwest of us. 
 
 Q. Is Ijhere any shipment of cotton from the Eed River country or 
 Memphis, by way of Saint Louis to- Chicago, or by the northern route 
 that way? 
 
 A. No, sir ; there are shipments from Memphis that come here and 
 go Bast, but not to Chicago. . They go directly East. 
 
 Q. Then, as I understand you, to come back again. You think the 
 possibilities of the route from Saint Louis to Liverpool a,v& 28.J cents a 
 bushel on wheat. How much would that be a ton ? 
 
 A. Nine dollars and forty- three cents. 
 
 Q. That is, a ton of two thousand pounds ? 
 
 A. I figure thirty-three bushels to the ton. 
 
 Q. Please state the cost of transporting wheat, corn, or cereals, from 
 New Orleans to New York City. 
 
 A. I do not know that I could answer that question. There is not 
 
TRANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOARD. 625 
 
 much being transported tbat way of late years. I will say in explana- 
 tion of my answer to a former question, that, when I spoke of freight 
 from New Orleans to Liverpool, I meant steam -freight. The rate by 
 sail is a good deal less. We have had sail-freight as low as 8 pence, 
 which would be 16 cents per bushel. 
 
 Q. How is the wheat actually transported now, according to the cur- 
 rent trade? 
 
 A. Most of it goes by steam. 
 
 Q. Were the examples you gave us awhile ago given with the rate by 
 steam ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Stanaed. No, sir ; some of them were by sail. 
 
 The Witness. Tbat of this year all went by steam, so far as I know. 
 
 Mr. Stanaed. Yes, this year all did go by steam. 
 
 By Mr. Sheeman : 
 
 Q. [To Mr. Scudder.J There is no wheat or grain transported from 
 Saint Louis via New Orleans to New York at all ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; there has not been for the last year or two. 
 
 Q. What is the reason of that? 
 
 A. The steamers that run between New York and New Orleans are 
 not adapted to the trade of carrying bulk grain. 
 
 Q. Would the difference between the price of wheat in Saint Louis 
 justify the transportation of wheat via New Orleans to New York, under 
 the most favorable circumstances you have mentioned ? 
 
 A. 1 think it would. I think if we had 22 or 24 feet of water at the 
 mouth of the river we could send wheat to New York, and compete with 
 other routes. 
 
 By Mr. Noewood : 
 
 Q. Have you ever given any attention to the projected line from the 
 Mississippi by rail and communication to the west of Florida and* across 
 to the Atlantic ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I cannot say that I have. I have had conversation with 
 gentlemen in regard to it. 
 
 Q. What I meant to say was, have you ever yourself considered the 
 question in regard to its cheapness, its feasibility, &c. ? 
 
 A. I have had a conversation with, I think, the superintendent of the 
 road which runs . I cannot think of the road at the present time. 
 
 Q. I wished to obtain your views on it, if you had considered the sub- 
 ject. 
 
 A. We did not consider it feasible, because our barges would have 
 had to be sent out, and we did not think that they could compete with 
 a steamer direct, providing that there was plenty of water on the bar. 
 
 Q. Direct to what point? 
 
 A. To Liverpool or New York. 
 
 Q. For what reason did you come to that conclusion? 
 
 A. There was in the transportation of it a double handling, besides a 
 hundred and eighty-three miles of railroad to Cedar Keys. Is that the 
 line you have reference to? 
 
 Q. No, sir ; 1 am speaking of the proposed water-line from the mouth 
 of the Mississippi to the Atlantic coast, through the peninsula of 
 Florida, 
 
 A. O, I have not given that any attention, sir. 
 
 . By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. I wish to ask generally as to the commerce of the river, and Saint 
 40 TS 
 
626 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Louis, but particularly as to what dates the vessels referred to in the 
 reports left here. 1 do iiot know who can answer that question. 
 Mr. Stanard. That is contained in the report. 
 
 Examination of Mr. E. O. Stanard : 
 
 I will state that in my experience as a merchant in shipping down the 
 Mississippi River and in shipping to Liverpool, both corn aDd wheat, 
 that in the years 1868, 1869, and 1870, I not only shipped a large 
 amount of both to Liverpool, but also to New York and some to Port- 
 land and some to Boston, both in bulk and in sacks. I have shipped 
 corn at 25 cents a sack, by the cargo, from New Orleans to New York, 
 and we have paid from 13 to 15 cents in bulk from New Orleans to New 
 York. It usually costs a cent more to Boston, and perhaps a cent and 
 a half more to Portland. I have shipped large quantities of flour from 
 New York to Saint Louis by the way of New Orleans, at high water. I 
 remember one cargo I shipped as low as eighty cents from Saint Louis 
 to New York by way of New Orleans. 
 
 By Mr. SHERMAN. 
 
 Q. Eighty cents for what? 
 
 A. Eighty cents a barrel. I have often shipped from Saint Louis to . 
 New York for a dollar a barrel at a good stage of water. And I claim 
 that a bushel of corn or of wheat, with 8 feet of water between here aDd 
 Cairo can be put into New York, into Providence, Portland, BostoD, 
 or Philadelphia at good paying rates at 7J cents a bushel from Saint 
 Louis to New Orleans, and not to exceed 12 to 13 cents from New 
 Orleans to New York. 
 
 Q. That is 20 cents per bushel through 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir; on grain. It was shown in your examination here of 
 Mr. Haarstick, who is very practical in shipping matters, that a bushel 
 of corti or wheat could be put into Liverpool, with the average stage of 
 water, say tit 1\ cents to Eew Orleans, and at 10 pence, or 21 cents, a 
 bushel from New Orleans to New York. The distance from New Orleans 
 to Liverpool is about five thousand miles, and from New Orleans to New 
 York about three thousand miles. Of course it can be put from New 
 Orleans to New York very much cheaper than it can be put into Liver- 
 pool. A gentleman from New Orleans says it is seventeen hundred 
 miles, and my figures, which I have heretofore given you, would better 
 correspond with that distance than they would with three thousand 
 miles troin New Orleans to New York. 
 
 I will state further, that my branch house in New Orleans, last year 
 and the year before, sent over a million and a half of bushels of corn 
 during the season, say from April until October, November and Decem- 
 ber to Liverpool, to Paris, and to Bristol, England. We have never, 
 with the exception of a few bushels to the cargo, had any damaged ; that 
 is, such damage as would accrue from leakage, which' would occur to 
 any sea-going vessel, or vessel running the river. Almost without ex- 
 ception this property has gone through in sound condition. These are 
 the results of my own practical experience, but we have been greatly 
 annoyed in New Orleans in this way, and that is one of the chief obsta- 
 cles now to the navigation of the Mississippi River and to exporting. I 
 mean the bar at the mouth of the Mississippi River. We get large 
 amounts of stuff there sometimes and there are no vessels to carry it: 
 Then, of course, the man. up the Mississippi River, who is a shipper, 
 gets discouraged, and does not ship again, because grain is not an arti- 
 cle in summer-time that will stand to lay long. It must be moved. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 627 
 
 Ship-owners upon the other side will hear of large amounts of corn lay- 
 ing in New Orleans ready to go and they will start their vessels there. 
 The man up here has been discouraged on account of his detention be- 
 fore and he has quit shipping. , 
 
 The ships are there when there is no stuff. The stuff is there again 
 ■when there are no ships. The reason ships do not come there regularly 
 is because often they get to New Orleans, and there is no more than 
 16 or 17 feet on the bar, and they cannot get in. ' They lay out pounding 
 on the Gulf of Mexico sometimes two or three weeks before they can get 
 in with their cargoes. 
 
 If we could have a regular stage of water at the mouth of the Mis- 
 sissippi Eiver, at New Orleans as they have at other seaboard ports, ves- 
 sels would come regularly, and would come with the certainty of mak- 
 ing the port as they do at other places. I think that the improve- 
 ment of the mouth of the Mississippi Eiver, by a canal, is the solution 
 to the whole question. Tou can then have a regular transportation 
 there. You will have a regular supply and additional facilities will also 
 be offered for the people of the northwest for marketing their products. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q, What do you think is a fair average point up the river from which 
 grain comes ; what point would you fix as the one which would represent 
 as much above it as comes from below it ? 
 
 A. Do you mean about the center of the grain region of the north- 
 west f 
 
 Q. Tes, sir, as measured by the river ; up and down the river. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I should think Dubuque was about the center ; Dubuque 
 or Muscatine is about the center of the wheat-growing region, while the 
 corn-growing region is farther south, and the corn is the great cereal 
 after all. 
 
 Q. How far is Dubuque from here by river ? 
 
 A. Four hundred and fifty-four miles from Saint Louis. 
 
 Q. How far is Dubuque below Saint Paul ? 
 
 A. Three hundred and forty-five miles. 
 
 Q. How far is it below Prairie du Chien ? 
 
 A. About seventy -two miles. The center of the corn region would be 
 south ot Keokuk. 
 
 Q. The centre of the wheat region, as you fix it, is seventy-two miles 
 below Prairie du Chien ? 
 
 A. 1 am speaking of spring wheat, and the center of that. It is 
 somewhere between Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Northern Illinois. 
 That is the great spring wheat belt. 
 
 Q. You spoke of solving the whole problem of transportion, as to 
 that, by a canal at the delta of the Mississippi? 
 
 A. As to that with other cereals. 
 
 Q. But you include that 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, I am considering one thing at a time. How, in your view, 
 would that solution of the problem compare with connecting the Missis- 
 sippi Biver and the lakes at Prairie du Chien and giving an outlet right 
 on to the Saint Lawrence ? . 
 
 A. My own impression is that for wheat, during the summer months, if 
 the cost was not too great in the solution of your transportation prob- 
 lem, it would have an advantage over the southern route for spring 
 wheat. 
 
 Q. Do you think the cost of transporting spring wheat, if you could 
 
628 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 make a water-route all the way, connecting the river and the lakes, as I 
 have indicated, and then right on down the Saint Lawrence, for exam- 
 ple, to the sea, do you think the cost of transporting spring wheat from 
 the point that vou fixed to Europe would be greater than to carry it 
 down to the delta of the Mississippi through a canal and by that route 
 to Europe 1 ' 
 
 A. I think, sir, that with the improvements, of which I speak, in the 
 Mississippi River, with plenty of water, even the spring-wheat could be 
 moved cheaper to Europe by the way of the river than it can possibly 
 be by that route, because a 'large portion of it would have to be gath- 
 ered in by railroad, and then go through both canals and down the 
 Saint Lawrence River. Large cargoes cannot be carried there. 
 
 Q. Let me examine that proposition a moment- Must spring-wheat 
 be gathered by railroads any more to be sent across from the Mississippi 
 to the lakes than to be sent up or down the Mississippi River 1 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. It is precisely the same thing, is it not ! 
 
 A. I should think so, sir. 
 
 Q. Then why do you include that element ? 
 
 A. I did not include it especially. I will put that as an additional 
 element to the Mississippi also. 
 
 Q. It is precisely equivalent in each case, is it not ? When you once 
 get the grain to the bank of the river, what you have done is identical 
 whether you intend to send it across the river, or up or down the river, 
 is it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but there are several elements in that calculation. 
 
 Q. Such as 
 
 A. A large proportion of the wheat that is grown in the Northwest is 
 grown west of the Mississippi River; hence the railroad transportation 
 to the Mississippi River would be shorter and should be cheaper than 
 railroad transportation, say, for three or four hundred miles west of the 
 Mississippi River, would be clear through to the lakes. 
 
 Q. Won't you state that again ? 
 
 A. I will. I state that a large belt of the spring-wheat country is 
 west of the Mississippi River. It would cost less to bring that wheat 
 by rail to the Mississippi River, say, a distance of one to three hundred 
 miles, than it would to take it from the point of production west of the 
 Mississippi River, clear across the Mississippi, and on to the point of 
 shipment upon the lakes. 
 
 Q. By rail? 
 
 A. By rail ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, you see you have forgotten entirely the basis of my question, 
 which was this : Suppose you make a water-route from Prairie du Chien 
 to Green Bay, thus connecting by water the Mississippi River and the 
 lakes. That was the basis of my question. In response to that you 
 include among other things the expense of gathering the grain at the 
 water by rail. My suggestion to you was that that expense by rail 
 would be absolutely and inevitably identical, whether after you have 
 assembled your grain on the bank of the river you intend to send it up 
 or down by water, or across to the lake by water. And in that regard 
 my suggestion is true, is it not ? 
 
 A. I did not take into account that you were going to have the canal 
 through to the Mississippi River. 
 
 Q. That is the whole basis of my question. I understood you to say, 
 that, in your judgment, the solution of the whole transportation prob- 
 lem, as to graiu, spring-wheat included, although you did not specify 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 629 
 
 that, was to improve the Mississippi River, and make a canal at the 
 delta of that river, so as to give facilities, at all times, to sea-going 
 vessels. 
 
 A. I claim that. 
 
 Q. Very well. Now, by way of testing that, I asked you whether 
 you thought that the article of spring-wheat, for example, the center of 
 whose region you fixed at a point seventy miles below Prairie du Chien, 
 could, in your judgment, be carried to Europe cheaper by the artificial 
 means that you proposed to employ to improve this river, and an artifi- 
 cial canal at the delta of the river, than it could were it taken by water 
 right across from Prairie du Chien to Green Bay, and so on by the open 
 navigation of the lakes, down the Saint Lawrence to the sea ? 
 
 A. Well, your proposition, to begin with, is not a fair one, because you 
 know that the lake and your canal, if you dig it through to Prairie du 
 Chien, would be frozen up five months in the year. 
 
 Q. It would not be frozen up at the time I was talking about, because 
 if it was frozen up there would not be any point in the question. Now 
 you observe that my proposition is not a fair one. I take no exception 
 to that, but, if you will bear in mind, first, that I am talking about 
 water and not about rail, wlich yon did not do before, and second, 
 that I am talking about the canal when it does operate, and not when 
 it does not operate, I think the proposition will be fair enough to de- 
 mand of you an answer, which I have not yet obtained. 
 
 A. It would be fair during the time when it was not frozen up. 
 
 Q. Of course I am not talking about the time when it is frozen up, 
 because, at such a time, what I have been supposing could not have 
 taken place; therefore, I am speaking of the time when it is open, and 
 when the two transits could take place, and I ask you whether, in your 
 iudgmeut, it would be cheaper to take spring-wheat from Dubuque down 
 through the improved Mississippi, and through the canal to be dug in 
 the delta of the Mississippi, and so to Europe, than it would be to take 
 it through a canal dug seventy miles above Dubuque and right on down 
 the open lakes and the open Saint Lawrence to the sea, and thence to 
 Europe. 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; cheaper, taking it the year round. 
 
 Q. I am not talking about the year round, because there is a part of 
 the year when you could not take it by one route at all, and perhaps 
 there is another part when you could not take it by the other. I am 
 taking an occasion when you could carry it optionally by either route. 
 I am not equating time and distance and getting up doctrines of equiv- 
 alence in the same. I am speaking about a specific proposition, con- 
 trasting the two routes, and, if you have an opinion about that, I would 
 like to hear it. 
 
 A. I told you that, during the time that it could be moved by the 
 canal, I did not think there would be a great deal of difference; although, 
 during that time, when this canal could be used, we would have high 
 water usually, especially in the spring-time, down the Mississippi River, 
 and of course wheat could be then transported much cheaper than it 
 could later in the season when there was low water; so that there are 
 several elements to be taken into account. 
 
 Q. Let us examine one or two of these elements. The low-water 
 months are the summer months, are they not;— June, July, August, add- 
 ing September ? 
 
 A. The low-water months are generally later than that. 
 
 Q. Name the low-water months. 
 
 A. Our highest water is generally in .June. The lowest-water months 
 
630 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 are generally beginning about the first of September. September, Octo- 
 ber, November are our low-water months. 
 
 Q. Is that the statement of low water as given in your r ep ort J 
 
 A. I think so, sir. If we ever have an overflow in the Mississippi it 
 is in June. 
 
 Q. You name now three months of low water i 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; of exceedingly low water. 
 
 Q. During those three months of low water the northern route of 
 which I am speaking would be especially the favorite, would it not, in- 
 asmuch as low water does not afreet the lakes, the ocean, or the Saint 
 Lawrence 1 
 
 A. I think it would for those months of low water, until frozen over. 
 
 Q. Then we have there a quantity and some in favor of the northern 
 route. Now, during the time when this route would be favored in the 
 hot weather, you would be here afflicted with low water and with the 
 danger, if there is any, of climatic damage to the grain, would you not ? 
 It is in the hot season rather than otherwise that you run a risk of heat- 
 ing grain in warm latitudes, is it not f 
 
 A. There is a little more risk in heating grain in a warm latitude, but 
 corn will heat anywhere in the summer months. 
 
 Q. Let me make you understand my question. You do not say that 
 there is any danger of heating grain in the Gulf of Mexico ? 
 
 A. It has not been our experience. 
 
 Q. I have not assumed that in my question. I say, whatever danger 
 there be in that regard, if any, is greater in the warm than in the cold 
 season, is it not 1 
 
 A. I should think so, sir. 
 
 Q. Then that would be in favor of the northern route, wonld it not, in 
 the summer months 1! 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; speaking of spring-wheat. That is what we are talking 
 about now. 
 
 Q. Yes ; so that, in respect of the low- water season and of the warm 
 season, there would not be any disadvantage to the northern route, 
 would there 1! 
 
 A. Not that I am aware of. I have not examined it. I do not know 
 what it will cost by that route. I know about this. 
 
 Q. Now, assuming that, and coming to the naked matter of cost, in 
 dollars and cents, is it your judgment that the difference would be in 
 favor of the northern route, or of the transit down to the mouth of the 
 river and through the Gulf to Europe ? 
 
 A. I have never seen any figures as to what it will cost in that way. 
 
 Q. So that when you say that this suggestion here would be a solu- 
 tion of the whole question, you do not speak in the presence of minute 
 review of this northern scheme 1 ? 
 
 A. When I made that assertion, I made it as a general one, and I take 
 into account that spring-wheat is only a very small cereal production of 
 the Mississippi Valley. 
 
 Q. Well, we will take another larger production. But, first of all, is 
 corn or spring- wheat most likely to heat in bulk? 
 
 A. I think that corn is. 
 
 Q. It is a good deal the most likely, is it not f 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where do you fix the center, along the Mississippi, of the corn- 
 raising region, speaking now of that corn which is raised for foreign 
 markets ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. (J31 
 
 A. That is simply a matter of opinion with me, not having thought of 
 it before. 
 
 Q. O, yes, I suppose it is all more or less inexact. 
 
 A. I should think that the, center of the corn-growing region, count- 
 ing the production of Ohio, and of Indiana, of Kansas 
 
 Q. But Ohio, if you will pardon me, is not on the Mississippi Biver. 
 
 A. It is tributary to the Mississippi. 
 
 Q. Yes, but the Ohio comes into the Mississippi a hundred and fifty 
 miles below the point which we set. 
 
 A. True enough. You are speaking, I believe, of the center of the 
 corn region of the Mississippi Valley. Fixing it as a point on the Mis- 
 sissippi River, I should think ifc would be south of Quincy, 111. 
 
 Q. How far is that above here ? 
 
 A. About a hundred and. forty miles. 
 
 Q. Now, speaking of the corn which is shipped by the Mississippi 
 direct, when it is shipped at all on the Mississippi, and not of that which 
 comes down the Ohio, striking a hundred and fifty miles below here, 
 where do you say is the center of the corn-growing region? 
 
 A. I do not think it would vary a great deal, because Kansas and 
 Nebraska are laying west of us, and 
 
 Q. How far is Quincy below Dubuque on the river? 
 
 A. It is about forty-five miles below Keokuk. Dubuque is about four 
 hundred and some odd miles from here, I think. 
 
 Captain Mason. Dubuque is about three hundred and fifty miles above 
 Quincy. 
 
 Mr. Stanard (to Captain Mason.) How far is Dubuque from here? 
 
 Captain Mason. It is less than three hundred from Dubuque to 
 Quincy. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. What do you count the price of this cheap river-navigation — the 
 cost per bushel of carrying corn from Quincy ? That would be three 
 hundred miles. 
 
 Mr. Stanard. Do you mean up or down the river? 
 
 Mr. Conklino. I mean from Quincy to Prairie du Chien. 
 
 A. It costs very much more for a short trip than it does for a long trip, 
 in transporting, because the cost of handling is the same for one as for 
 the other. 
 
 Q. It would not cost any more for a short than a long trip, if it 
 was billed through ? In other words, if the same boat in which it is 
 taken to Quincy could go right through to the Welland Canal, the short- 
 ness of the trip from Quincy to Prairie du Chien would not 
 
 A. It would cost more than it would if that boat was going eight 
 hundred miles, instead of three hundred and seventy miles. 
 
 Q. I am taking the case of the same barge going to be towed right 
 through into the lake 3 and, therefore, the shortness of the route does not 
 come in. 
 
 A. O, no, if she was going right through the canal ; but, then, that is 
 not a possibility. Probably it is not. It might be. 
 
 Q. We will not differ about that. Will you state what you think 
 would be the fair price of carrying the corn that three hundred and 
 seventy-two miles ? 
 
 A. I really do not know ; six or seven cents. Six cents perhaps with 
 good navigation — plenty of water. 
 
 Q. Now, take that same case. I suppose it could go up with just as 
 little water as it could come down ? 
 
632 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it would go slower. 
 
 Q. As to that corn, the center of production of which you have uxea 
 at Quincy, do you think it would be cheaper to carry it down to the 
 Mississippi, to the mouth of the Mississippi, and so to Europe, than it 
 would be to ship it at Quincy, take it to Prairie du Chien, through the 
 canal there, and tow it right down to the Welland Oanal, and so to sea- 
 going vessels 1 
 
 A. I think it would be dearer that way than it would be the other. 
 
 Q. How much a bushel do you think the difference would be in favor 
 of the mouth of the Mississippi? 
 
 A. I have not figured as to what the cost is going to be for putting 
 it through the canal, or the cost of canals, and I do not know the dis- 
 tance either. 
 
 Q. Have you figured what the cost was going to be of these improve- 
 ments from here down, and of the ship-canal ? 
 
 A. I have something of an idea. 
 
 Q. What do you say the cost would be per bushel of passing it • 
 through the ship-canal at New Orleans 1 
 
 A. I have not figured as to what would be the cost. 
 
 Q. And you have not figured as to what would be the cost of the 
 Prairie du Chien Oanal I 
 
 A. No, sir: I have not. 
 
 Q. Then it is as broad as it is long. Is there any reason why passing 
 through a canal should be any more expensive at Prairie du Chien than 
 it is at the delta of the Mississippi ? 
 
 A. It appears to me that the Government would take into account 
 the cost of the construction of the various canals. 
 
 Q. How much would the ship-canal at New Orleans cost ? 
 
 A. The Government engineer reports that it will not cost over six 
 millions of dollars. Mr. Howell is the engineer in charge there. 
 
 Q. How much is the canal at Prairie du Chien estimated at ? 
 
 A. I have never seen an estimate of it. 
 
 Q. So that, in other words, you have no mode of contrasting these' 
 figures ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I have not. 
 
 Q. Assuming that the canal lockage and canal handling was the 
 same in the two cases, do you think then that cheapness would be in 
 favor of the mouth of the Mississippi route "1 
 
 A. I do, sir; if we have the necessary improvements on the Missis- 
 sippi Eiver. 
 
 Q. Can you give the reason for that ? 
 
 A. I judge very largely by the cost of sending grain from Chicago 
 and from Milwaukee, by the way of the lakes, to Buffalo, and from 
 thence through the Erin Canal to New York. 
 
 Q. You observe that I have not said a word about the Erie Canal. I 
 have expressly excluded that, I am talking about the lakes and of the 
 .river Saint Lawrence, and expressly avoiding the Erie Canal. 
 
 A. I observe that, but I say I base my judgment on the present cost of 
 taking grain through the lakes, and through a canal to New York. 
 
 Q. How does that aid you, if you have a canal at New Orleans, and, 
 in the other case, a canal at Prairie du Chien, and I have supposed that 
 the two canal expenses are precisely the same ; how does it then aid 
 you to consider the cost of further canal navigation, when there is no 
 further canal navigation ? 
 
 A. I think my answer to that question was— it seems to me to be 
 understood. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOAED. 633 
 
 Q. I do not understand it, sir. I do not see how you judge of the 
 cost of carrying on the lakes, or the river Saint Lawrence, by taking the 
 cost of carrying through the Erie Canal, when it is not proposed to carry 
 that way. 
 
 A. But a very large proportion of this transportation now to lew 
 York is not through the canal. It is around the lakes, and I know 
 what the cost is now through the lakes and canal, being water commu- 
 nication clear through. 
 
 Q. I see your idea. Now, let me ask you about that. Is the naviga- 
 tion cheaper per bushel on the Mississippi Eiver than on the lakes ? 
 
 A. It is not, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, then, that does not aid a great deal. 
 
 A. I will tell you how that aids, sir. It is not cheaper than it is around 
 the lakes. From Chicago to Buffalo is the cheapest water transporta- 
 tion that I know, for the distance. That is, their possibilities, as has been 
 shown by their freight tariffs, are the lowest, although the actual trans- 
 actions are not cheaper. I have shipped corn from Chicago to Buffalo 
 at 5 cents per bushel. It has been carried as low as 4 cents, but the 
 tariff now is 14 cents per bushel from Chicago to Buffalo. 
 
 Q. That is a thousand miles 1 
 
 A. Tes, sir. It costs on an average from Chicago to New York, in- 
 cluding canal transportation, about 24 to 26 cents per bushel. Now, 
 the reason of my argument, that this other is going to be cheaper than 
 this, is, that we have already shown here by Mr. Haarstick, in answer to 
 the questions of Mr. Sherman, that a bushel of grain can be taken from 
 Saint Louis to New Orleans, by improved navigation, at 1\ cents, and 
 from New Orleans to Liverpool, at 20 cents a bushel, and arguing from 
 that stand point, I say it is going to be the solution of the transporta- 
 tion problem, not that I or anybody else here expects that we are going 
 to carry all this stuff, but it will give additional transportation to the 
 country, which is much required. 
 
 Q. Have you taken the trouble to calculate the difference in miles 
 from Quincy, for example, up the mouth of the Mississippi, and so to 
 Liverpool % 
 
 A. How is that? 
 
 Q. Do you know the difference in miles between going to Liverpool 
 from Quincy via the mouth of the Mississippi, and going across from 
 Quincy to Prairie du Chien, from there to Green Bay, and so on down, 
 and thence to Liverpool ? 
 
 A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Do you know within five hundred miles how the two routes com- 
 pare in distance ? 
 
 A. I do not know that I could state ; I should think that the shorter 
 route to Liverpool would be by the way of Montreal. 
 
 Q. Can you tell within five hundred miles how much the shorter ? 
 
 A. I cannot. 
 
 Q. Can you tell the comparison of the two routes, as to the time it 
 would take to go from Quincy to a canal at Prairie du Chien, across to 
 the lakes, and so on, down the Saint Lawrence to Europe, and to go 
 from Quincy down the Mississippi Biver to the Gulf of Mexico, and 
 thence to Liverpool ? 
 
 A. I think the time would be in favor of the Mississipppi route, with 
 a fair stage of water, because there is a current that would allow the 
 cargo to go along very rapidly to New Orleans. 
 
 Q. How do you think it would be after it reached New Orleans ? 
 
634 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A, After it left New Orleans of course there is fair sailing on the 
 
 high seas. „ v 
 
 Q. But how as to the time, which is another way of measuring dis- 
 tance? What is the time of going from New Orleans to Liverpool, as 
 compared with going from Portland to Liverpool? 
 
 A. I do not remember the exact distance from Portland to Liverpool. 
 It is about five thousand miles from New Orleans to Liverpool. I sup- 
 pose it practically takes about twenty days for a vessel to go from New 
 Orleans to Liverpool. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. A sailing-vessel, do you mean? 
 
 A. A steam- vessel. Sailing-vessels make it in thirty days. 
 
 By Mr. Dayis : 
 
 Q. I notice your statement gives corn. Do you ship wheat also, in 
 the same way, around by New Orleans ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. To what extent are you shipping now ? 
 
 A. There is very little bulk grain going now. 
 
 Q. Well, either bulk or sacks ? 
 
 A. There is very little shipped. There is very little foreign grain 
 being shipped at this time, by the way of New Orleans. 
 
 Q. Was there any other grain shipped between the dates which you 
 give us here, of February and August, or do you give us the entire car- 
 goes that were shipped? 
 
 A. Those vessels, generally, at New Orleans, take about half their 
 cargo in cotton, and the other half in bulk-grain. 
 
 Q. Perhaps I did not make myself understood. To see whether there 
 was any damage or not to grain, I wished to know whether there were 
 any other vessels which left New Orleans with grain between the dates 
 which you gave us here, between February and August ? 
 
 A. None that I am aware of. There might have been a good many. 
 i do not know. 
 
 Q. How did you get that list ? 
 
 A. Those were shipments that were reported from New Orleans. If 
 you will turn to corn, you will see those are a line of shipments which 
 we took, say, during the summer months. 
 
 Q. They are from February to August, I notice. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. There may have been more, and there may not have 
 been ; I am not posted as to that. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Those are the ones reported here, as I understand ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. This season there has been no large amount exported. 
 
 Q. Is it probable there were others shipped and these selected ? 
 
 A. It is uot probable. 
 
 Q. It is not. 
 
 A. No, sir. We intended to give you a fair statement of that whole 
 business. 
 
 Q. What proportion of grain from this market now finds its way to 
 eastward markets, by rail and by water. 
 
 A. A large proportion of the grain which comes here— of the wheat 
 I mean, especially--is manufactured into flour. We manufacture three 
 million barrels of flour here. A large proportion of the corn and oats 
 which comes here either comes for city consumption or is sent all over 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 635 
 
 the southern country. We have a very large Southern trade, through 
 the interior of all the Southern States. 
 
 Q. The object of my inquiry was to know the grain that was shipped 
 to other markets than your local markets — what proportion went by 
 water and what by rail ? 
 
 A. Bo you mean South % 
 
 Q. In any way. I do not mean, now, your local markets, but grain 
 going anywhere to the markets of the Atlantic. 
 
 A. As I said before, a large proportion of our grain, except that 
 manufactured into flour here, finds a market in the South. Part of it 
 goes, say, to Vicksburg or Memphis by river, and is there distributed 
 by railroad throughout the South. A great deal of it is shipped direct 
 by railroad from here to Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, 
 going over the short-line road, over the Iron Mountain road, striking 
 the Mobile, aud the Ohio, and the Mississippi Central, and Jackson and 
 Tennessee roads, and there distributed over the South. 
 
 Q. Still, I desire to know what proportion of grain that goes to 
 market from this market goes down the river or goes by rail eastward? 
 
 A. A large portion, as I said before, goes South. 
 
 Q. What is that proportion ? 
 
 A. 1 cannot tell the proportion, but it is a very large one. 
 
 Q. What is the rate now to New York by rail, from here? Tou have 
 a regular rate, I believe ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. It is upon flour a dollar and thirty cents per barrel ; 
 grain, 65 cents per hundred, which would be practically about 38 cents 
 per bushel. Thirty-eight to forty cents on wheat and corn, there being 
 a difference in the number of pounds. 
 
 Q. What is the freight to Baltimore and Philadelphia? 
 
 A. The freight to Baltimore is 55 cents a hundred, and to Phila- 
 delphia about the same. The rates are less to those points than to New 
 York aud Boston. 
 
 Q. Have you information which you can give us as to the commerce 
 of your town ; I mean , the general commerce of the town, and also 
 river "? 
 
 A. We have given you our receipts of produce in this statement, our 
 tonnage, &c. 
 
 Q. Other cities have given us their general commerce. Cincinnati 
 has given the commerce of the Ohio Biver. We should like to know 
 the commerce of the Mississippi, if it could be furnished, in order to 
 make some general comparisons between rail and water. 
 
 A. I think it can be furnished to you. 
 
 Q. Can you also give us the general commerce of the river, between 
 here and New Orleans, and so on up ? 
 
 A. Do you mean the value of vessels and value of cargoes, which 
 have been transported during the year ? 
 
 Q. I mean tonnage transported for any given year along the line of 
 the river, and the different points to which it went. 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think we can approximate to something which will be 
 satisfactory to you. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Do you not ship a great deal of grain and flour across the equator, 
 from the mouth of the Mississippi Biver ? 
 
 A. A good deal. 
 
 Q. In other words, have you not another market beside the Atlantic 
 coast and Liverpool ? 
 
636 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. Oh, yes; and, by the way, there is a gentleman here present from 
 New Orleans, who can post you very thoroughly upon that subject. 
 
 Q. I desire merely to obtain the general statement. 
 
 A. I think there is a gentleman here who can give you the exact ex- 
 ports to other countries, from the mouth of the Mississippi Biver, 
 which I cannot do. 
 
 Q. Would it not, or would it be much cheaper if the Mississippi were 
 improved and a canal cut, such as you have been speaking of, to ship 
 grain and the products of grain from this region to that market, than 
 by the lakes around and then to that market f 
 
 A. O, of course, sir. I think there is no doubt about that. 
 
 Q. Then, so far as that portion of the products was concerned, there 
 would be a great saving to the producer ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The lakes and water communication both, as I understand, are 
 closed about five months during the year? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I understand so. 
 
 Q. During that time the railroads put up their rates ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. State what advantage it would be to the producer by having a 
 market that he could reach any month in the year, over one which he 
 could only reach any month during seven months. 
 
 A. He would have an infinite advantage. 
 
 Q. State what those advantages would be as they may occur to your 
 mind. 
 
 A. To the producer of wheat or corn, how much the damage would be, 
 his being confined in mid-winter in the Northwest without being able 
 to ship his stuffs, I cannot possibly say, or how much he would gain by 
 having an open market, but the advantage certainly would be very 
 great. 
 
 Q. Does not this advantage arise, that when he has a market the 
 year round he can make his choice of time to sell ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And in that way he is not forced to come to market, and can com- 
 mand a better price ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is not that, then, an advantage over a line that is not open during 
 the whole year ¥ 
 
 A. It is, sir. 
 
 Q. Again, does or does he not desire an advantage by having a means 
 of transportation which is open during the year, so that there is no 
 press at any particular period of the year, when rates are put up on 
 him¥ 
 
 A. Yes, sir. If there are a hundred millions of bushels to be 
 shipped in six months he would have to pay a very much larger rate of 
 transportation, than for a hundred millions of bushels to be shipped in 
 twelve months, it seems to me. 
 
 Q. If he could ship as cheaply by lakes through a canal from Prairie 
 du Chieu to Lake Michigan, and on to the Atlantic, as he could ship by 
 the Mississippi, through that canal, to a foreigu market, would or would 
 not the difference in the rates of freights, where he has a communica- 
 tion open the year round, be an advantage that would be very profitable 
 to the producer ? 
 
 A. Very. 
 
 Q. In your opinion, would or would not that counterbalance the other 
 matter, as between those, two lines that might be put on a par ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 637 
 
 A. I think it would very largely counterbalance it. It would counter- 
 balance it if there was any. 
 
 Q. Of course, you assume that shipment by either line is equally safe 
 to the cargoes, not only from the perils of the sea, but also from the cli- 
 matic effects ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Does it make any difference in shipping by water in the month of 
 June, or in the months of July and August, whether you ship by the 
 lakes and by canal-boats, or whether you ship by the river, and then by 
 the ocean vessels ? I mean in the climatic effect. Is there any differ- 
 ence as to the climatic effect upon grain, corn, or wheat that is shipped 
 by water during the hot months of the year? In other words, is it not 
 just as hot in that latitude in June, and July, and August, as it is ship- 
 ping by the river? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then is there any difference in the climatic effect upon grain 
 shipped by water, it matters not whether it goes by canal or by lake, 
 either on that line or this °! Is there any difference during those six 
 months in the climatic effects upon grain which is transported by water, 
 all other things being equal, of course, if the boats are equally good, and 
 do not leak, &c? 
 
 A. At the same temperature, or the same indications of the thermome- 
 ter, I think there would be no difference whether the grain be north or 
 south, except that there is a little more humidity in the atmosphere at 
 the south, and it might affect it to a disadvantage; but that, in shipping 
 'grain, is very largely overcome, and sufficiently corrected, so that no 
 damage accrues in my experience by the transfer several times of the 
 grain. Wheat or corn arrives in New Orleans, and is taken out of the 
 elevator, and, of course, gets aired. It is then thrown back again, in 
 the course of a day or two, into a vessel, and gets aired again. 
 
 Q. Where is that? 
 
 A. In New Orleans. The same thing is the case, shipping in the 
 north largely. But the climatic difficulty in my experience is not a dif- 
 ficulty if the. grain is sound when it is shipped. Grain that is damp in 
 mid-summer, along in the summer months, will spoil anywhere. 
 
 Q. Or when it is gathered before it is entirely ripe "I 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; in the germinating season, it is just as natural for corn 
 or wheat to sprout and grow when getting a little moist as anything 
 that is natural. But if com is sound it will go by either route safely. 
 If it is damp when it leaves the cribs, it will go into the market bad, 
 come over either the northern or southern routes. 
 
 As far as wheat is concerned, it is not affected by the atmosphere and 
 does not get unsound — not nearly so much as corn. If it has a fair show 
 at all it will be sound during the year, if you do not throw it into the 
 river. 
 
 Q. You said there was more moisture by the southern than by the 
 northern line? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but I think not sufficient to damage the crop. 
 . Q. Before the grain reaches the Atlantic, or the Gulf, do you think 
 there is more moisture on one line than the other, taking into consider- 
 ation the heat and evaporation on the lakes ? 
 
 A. That is simply a matter of opinion. 
 
 Q. I am speaking of these months during the heated term ? 
 
 A. I do not know that it is so during the heated term. But in the 
 South it is usually considered that there is more humidity in the atmos- 
 phere. But I believe that the humidity now is later in the season, usu- 
 
638 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 allv. That has been my experience in* that country, because when the 
 sun pours down pretty hot, it burns up anything of that kind. 
 
 Q. Do you think there is no humidity there during June, July, and 
 August ? 
 
 A. It was my impression that that was the case. I may be mistaken. 
 It is simply a matter of opinion. 
 
 Q. I am speakiug now upon the water-lines. I am not speaking of 
 the country at large. Of course we know the atmosphere farther north 
 is dryer, but I am speaking of the water-lines, and of course the effect 
 of humidity arising on these water-lines upon the grain transported by 
 them. 
 
 A. I cannot tell you whether it is more north or south. Of course 
 grain in water will be pretty damp, and there is a good deal of humid- 
 ity about it, whether in the frigid or torrid zone. 
 
 Q. Ton think, then, there would be from the action of the sun more 
 moisture upon the Mississippi than there would be upon the lakes ? 
 
 A. There might be in the extreme southern part, but I am not sure 
 on that point. It is simply an opinion that I throw out incidentally, as 
 I desire to be fair in anything I may say. 
 
 Q. Are they not in the habit of kiln-drying grain on the northern 
 lines in order to keep it from spoiling 9 
 
 A. Very largely. We have not done that very much. We are 
 usually careful to see that the corn is in good condition before it is 
 shipped, and prudence would indicate that it should be in good condi- 
 tion either in a southern or northern market, because a large proportion 
 of the corn going to market by the Erie Canal, or northern route, goes 
 damaged, and corn in elevators, north and south, if it lies long, will 
 get warm. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. I noticed that you were the chairman in preparing this report. 
 Did you consider at all what is known as the central water-route by 
 way of the James and Kanawha Eivers f 
 
 A. That matter was not discussed before our committee. 
 
 Q. Have you given any attention to it? 
 
 A. I have given some attention to it, sir. 
 . Q. Have you anything to say on that point ? 
 
 A. I have not given the matter attention enough to give a matured 
 opinion, for the- judgment of the committee. I have felt favorable, 
 however, from the information I had, toward that route. I did not 
 know how much it was going to cost the Government; and to tell you 
 the truth, I have not given it that attention which 1 intend to. 
 
 Q. Your committee did not consider it at all, I understand ? 
 
 A. We did not. 
 
 Q. From what information you have of it you are favorable to the 
 route ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think it is generally looked upon favorably in Saint 
 Louis. We are not fighting anybody, gentlemen, either the Georgia 
 Canal, the Welland Canal, or the Kanawha or James Eiver route. We 
 simply desire enlarged facilities. 
 
 Examination of E. T. Van Horn of the Board of trade of Kansas 
 City: 
 
 Mr. Chairman, I will state that our board of trade have simply grouped 
 the facts and interest of our section of the. country, as will appear when 
 l read from the pamphlet which they have prepared. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 639 
 
 THE NEW WEST— ITS RESOURCES, AGRICULTURAL INTERESTS, COM- 
 MERCE, AND TRANSPORTATION NEEDS. 
 
 Board of Trade Rooms, 
 
 Kansas City, October 25, 1873. 
 To Son. William Window, and Members of the Committee of the Senate of the United States : 
 
 Gentlemen : The board of trade of Kansas City desire to represent to your commit- 
 tee the needs of the country comprehended, by its commerce in marketing the products 
 of its soil and receiving the merchandise consumed by it in exchange. 
 
 The country in question is new to the commerce of the Union — its importance dating 
 from the close of the late civil war — its population in that time having increased at a 
 moderate estimate'one million in number. 
 
 It embraces Western Missouri, Western Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas, Colorado, the In- 
 dian Territory, Northwestern Texas, and New Mexico — covering twelve degrees of 
 latitude, sixteen degrees of longitude, aud comprises an area of more than 000,000 
 square miles. 
 
 This vast district of country has but one navigable river — the Missouri — and its lines 
 of commerce are thus exclusively by railway, except the limited margin on either side 
 of that river. 
 
 The system of railway construction for this interior region — the geographical center 
 of the United States and of the continent — is, so far as the great trunk-lines are in- 
 volved, very far advanced, and are concentrated at the mouth of the Kansas River, the 
 nearest and most available point for all the country to the navigable waters of the 
 Missouri River, as you will see by the map. 
 
 The agricultural portion of this part of the Union embraces the portions of Missouri 
 and Iowa referred to, the States of Nebraska and Kansas, and the Indian Territory, 
 and is of a more uniform character in quality aud production than any equal area on 
 the globe. The soil is of exceptional fertility, and the official report by the census of 
 1870 shows it to embrace the largest and most productive corn and winter-wheat area 
 in the world. 
 
 It also embraces the only natural pastoral region in North America, where, from time 
 beyond the knowledge of this continent, have been subsisted the countless herds of 
 aboriginal cattle, exceeding in number the domestic herds of the globe. These are now 
 being supplanted by the cattle of civilization. The present seasou has brought together 
 for market, at the several points in Kansas, on the feeding-grounds of the Kansas City 
 stock-market, over $7,000,000 worth of grass-fed cattle alone. 
 
 In addition to this, a careful computation from the crop statistics of the census of 
 1870 shows that, for the year ending June of that year, there were produced iu this' 
 region 26,452,116 bushels of wheat ; 631,353 bushels of rye ; 89,236,854 bushels of corn ; 
 24,367,214 bushels of oats ; 1,429,946 bushels of barley ; 1,856,138 tons of hay ; 6,'235,366 
 pounds of tobacco. 
 
 In live stock it produced : Of hogs, 2,596,185 ; cattle, other than exclusively grass- 
 fed, 533,833; of grass-fed, 2,061 ( 343, exclusive of the Indian Territory, where there are 
 large herds, but from which there are no returns ; of mules, 116,585 ; of sheep, 2,233,326 ; 
 of horses, 835,833. 
 
 The value in soil-products of the amount produced by these figures, at the current 
 market-rates paid at Kansas City this season, would amount to $85,228,837. And the 
 live stock, at alow average per head, are in value $26,557,630. 
 
 Or, in the aggregate, this, portion of the Union produced, in 1870, from its soil alone, 
 a wealth of more than one hundred and twenty-eight millions of dollars. 
 
 A country thus productive, and which has become so practically within seven 
 years, and which has seen its three most productive years since the census-figures were 
 obtained, is, we most respectfully submit, entitled to be heard on a question so vital 
 as that for which your committee was raised to inquire into and report upon — trans- 
 portation. 
 
 And we approach this part of our subject with the statement, that, as compared 
 -with other portions of the Union affected by both the foreign and domestic market, it 
 is practically cut off from both, and, in times of abundant crops, its products do not 
 admit of shipment with profit to the producer ; only when prices are high, induced by 
 failure of crops east of the Mississippi or in Europe, or both, can its grain be profitably 
 transported to the Atlantic sea-board by present facilities. 
 
 From Kansas City, the converging-point of the principal great trunk-lines to New 
 York is, by rail, fourteen hundred miles, being nearer to that city than from any point 
 on the Missouri River above the mouth of the Kansas, and, for this reason, taken as 
 the standard of computation. 
 
 Taking the rate of transportation by rail, as we find it in the documents printed by 
 Congress, to be twelve and a half mills per ton per mile, wefind that the cost of a bushel 
 of wheat of 60 pounds from Kansas City to New York'would be 52£ cents, or 87-J cents 
 per 100 pounds for all products. 
 
640 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOAED. 
 
 This we may assume to be the rate by all rail, and for our corn and pork, which 
 come into market after the close of navigation, rail transportation is our only aepena- 
 euce. As to corn, it is quoted the day on which this is written in New York at oB* to 
 60 cents per bushel— leaving to the farmer, the shipper, and for all expenses getting 
 it in the car at Kansas City, a margin of 6 to 8 cents. Is it strange that it is burned 
 for fuel to save the destruction of timber ; and cheaper than coal at cost ot mining 
 
 and delivery ? 
 
 It is unnecessary to lengthen the argument by parallel illustrations as to other 
 ircducts, as this one affecting our great staple is sufficient— everything being governed 
 .V it. 
 
 £ 
 
 NATURAL OUTLETS. 
 
 But these disabilities can be remedied. They are artificial, and result from causes 
 which are susceptible of remedy, and which have been in great part removed by pri- 
 vate and corporate enterprise. 
 
 And we are before your committee to-day because it is proposed to devise a general 
 system of relief for tie whole country, by opening up cheaper channels of transporta- 
 tion by the common fund of the nation ; and because what is needed in this respect 
 by us can only be done under national authority. 
 
 There are two outlets for the products we have referred to : One by way of the 
 Missouri and Mississippi Eivers ; one by the harbor at Galveston, Tex. 
 
 BY GALVESTON HARBOR. 
 
 We shall consider them in the reverse order in which they are mentioned. 
 
 From Kansas City to Galveston it is now tight hundred miles as the railroads are 
 constructed, but which can be reduced within seven hundred miles — or just half the 
 distance to New York. It is, as to cost of transportation, as if Kansas City was removed 
 east to Columbus, Ohio. The qucslion as it addresses itself to us is : 
 
 " Why should Kansas City, and the country surrounding it, with its one hundred 
 millions of annual production, be compelled t o seek the market through Columbus, Ohio, 
 any more than that Columbus should be compelled to seek her market by way of Kan- 
 sas City ?" 
 
 If the port, of Galveston was made accessible for ocean-going vessels, the wheat and 
 corn of the Missouri Valley could seek the ocean at 26J- cents per bushel, and pay the 
 same rate it does to-day to New York at 52-1 cents — adding a quarter of a dollar to the 
 price of the 115,000,000 of bushels of these crops, produced in 18/0, or more than 
 §28,000,000 to the farmers of this New West every year. 
 
 Then the country embraced in this central portion cf the nation would be, as to 
 foreign markets, as favorably situated as the States of Indiana and Ohio, and our rich 
 lands increased in corresponding value. 
 
 And why the national treasury should not improve this harbor equally with those of 
 the lakes and Atlantic seaboard is, we submit, not a question tor discussion. Its need 
 is all that requires to be established. And this we feel our illustration and the facts 
 recited most conclusively establish. 
 
 BY THE MISSISSIPPI. 
 
 The other outlet for the Upper Missouri to the markets of the world is by the Mis- 
 souri and Mississippi Eivers. 
 
 There are two questions to be considered in connection with this route : 
 
 The navigation of the Missouri Eiver by barges, its seasons of low water and ice, 
 and the low water and ice in the Mississippi Eiver above the mouth of the Ohio ■ 
 
 And a connection by railway with the Mississippi at a point below ice, and at per- 
 manently deep water. 
 
 The cost of shipping grain, per bushel, from Saint Louis to New Orleans may be 
 fixed by present iaeihties, at a high stage of water, at 8 to 10 cents. It may be brought 
 to a lower minimum, but we prefer to be within actual figures, as demonstrated" in 
 practical transportation. 
 
 At present as the channel is in the Missouri, it would require lighter tonnage in 
 vessels, and thus the cost be somewhat enhanced over the same distances in the Missis- 
 sippi We depend entirely upon conjecture when we put the cost from Kansas City to 
 Saint Louis, by barges at about the same figures, or in all about 16 to 20 cents per 
 bushel from Kansas City to Now Orleans. vo^™ ^ 
 
 This would be a saving to ocea,u ports, over the present rates to New York of 32+ 
 cents for all gram lor European demand, and of 22* cents to New York itself, counting 
 10 eents irmii New Orleans to New York. - wu """ 1 k 
 
 Wo know it is claimed, and we believe within the limits of practical demonstration, 
 that these figures can be materially reduced, but we prefer to take what has been done! 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 641 
 
 as it is ample to command consideration, leaving to the future and mutual enterprise to 
 reduce the cost by both routes ; the point we desire to enforce being the relative cost 
 between the two, both being susceptible of further cheapening. 
 
 The Missouri River has not been tested by being navigated by grain-barges in tow of 
 steamers, as has the Mississippi between Saint Louis and New Orleans. It is believed 
 by practical men that it can be so used successfully, and we have so considered it in 
 estimating the cost of transportation. But frankness requires us to say that it has yet 
 to be demonstrated. 
 
 But, conceding that it is so, it is insufficient as an outlet for the products of the vast 
 area of country dependent upon it. And for these reasons : 
 
 From August until the close of November is the low-water season, when the channel 
 contains but from 3J to 5 feet of water. 
 
 From the last week in November to the middle of March, navigation is suspended 
 by ice. True, in some seasons the interruption from this cause is more brief, but there 
 is no safety within that period, and even by steamboats is seldom attempted until the 
 freezing season has entirely passed. And above the mouth of the Kansas River, the. 
 obstruction from ice is often some weeks later. 
 
 Thus the season of good navigation in the Missouri may be included from April to 
 August — at its best, after the annual rise in June. 
 
 Our corn-crop is never ready for shipment until after ice has closed the river, and 
 our pork-crop, made from it, necessarily so, as well as most of the beef, although a 
 portion of this can go forward before ice is formed. The wheat, in part, may go before 
 the close of navigation, but so far as the Missouri can be availed of most of our pro- 
 ducts must lie in store until the opening of navigation in the spring. 
 
 The same. obstacles await us between Saint Louis and Cairo, both from low water 
 in the autumn months and ice and low water during those of the winter. 
 
 The general result arrived at by these facts and figures is, that this central area of 
 the country has a common interest with the whole Mississippi Valley in the removal 
 of obstructions to navigation in the channels of that river and its tributaries, and the 
 removalof the barrier at its mouth, as the cheapest and most available outlet to the 
 markets of the world. 
 
 But confined as we are to the one river, the main dependence for gathering the crops 
 and concentrating the products of the agricultural lands for transport is, and for all 
 time must be, upon the railway. And'for fully one-half the year we must use the rail- 
 road to reach the Mississippi. And to fully utilize that river it must be reached by rail 
 below the mouth of the Ohio, where an open channel and deep water can be found 
 throughout the year. 
 
 THE MISSISSIPPI AT MEMPHIS. 
 
 Private enterprise has air eady fixed upon the point for this connection at Memphis 
 and the work of constructing a railroad from Kansas City to that city begun — the first 
 hundred miles being well advanced and work going forward at this time. The im- 
 portance of this connection, and the aid of your committee and through you of Con- 
 gress, will be seen from the considerations we present. 
 
 From the mouth of the Kansas River to Saint Louis by the Missouri is four hundred 
 miles. 
 
 From Saint Louis to Memphis four hundred and fifty miles. 
 
 From Memphis to New Orleans seven hundred and fifty miles — or one thousand six 
 hundred miles in all — from Kansas City to New Orleans. 
 
 Iu the season when the Missouri is closed it is by rail to Saint Louis two hundred 
 and eighty -three miles ; and from Saint Louis to Memphis three hundred and nineteen 
 m il e8 — g i x hundred and two miles by rail from the mouth of the Kansas to Memphis — 
 where the permanently open river aud deep water is reached. 
 
 By air line from Kausas City to Memphis it is three hundred and sixty-five miles, 
 • and can be traversed by rail within three hundred and ninety miles— in round num- 
 bers four hundred miles. 
 
 The Upper Missouri Valley can thus reach the Mississippi River below ice and at 
 permanently deep water by two hundred miles less rail transportation than as now 
 employed by way of Saint Louis. 
 
 By employing one hundred and seven miles longer rail transit than at present, four 
 hundred and fifty miles of river are saved, as against the route by Saint Louis ; and 
 by employing two hundred and twelve less miles of railway, the same point is reached 
 by all rail, as now. And in both cases the only obstacles now existing are completely 
 and entirely overcome. 
 
 This obtained, and uniform freights throughout the year are secured, or, if there is 
 any difference, the winter freights will be lower than the summer, from the fact that 
 the boats that are driven from the upper rivers by ice will seek the Lower Mississippi 
 for winter employment, making tonnage more abundant than in the summer. 
 
 Then, with the obstructions at the mouth of the Mis sissippi removed, or avoided, 
 41 T S 
 
642 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 ocean steamers could land at Memphis just as freely as at New Orleans, and .grain be, 
 loaded direct from the elevators and shipped to either New York, Philadelphia Boston, 
 or to Europe. And the flour made from our winter wheat, equal to any m tne^ union, 
 be shipped by the shortest route to the West India and South American markets. 
 
 It would practically place our grain port within four hundred miles of the mouth of ~ 
 the Kansas, and give us both for export and import the lowest rates, and Uniterm at 
 all seasons. . , ., , , 
 
 Taking the same rates of charges on freight by river and rail, as we have used 
 above, we could by this proposed route place grain in Memphis at 15 cents, in New 
 Orleans at 20 cents, New York at 30 cents, and Liverpool at 35 cents per bushel— or 
 even by rehandliug at New Orleans in addition to Memphis, it would only make the 
 cost of our grain at New York and Liverpool 35 and 40 respectively— or a saving over 
 present rates to Europe of 36| cents for every bushel of the grain of western Iowa, 
 western Missouri, Kansas, and Nebraska. . 
 
 At this writing grain from Saint Louis to Memphis costs 22J cents per 100 pounds, 
 or about fourteen cents per bushel. To New Orleans by barge 30 cents per 100 pounds, 
 or 18 cents per bushel. By barge from Kansas City at corresponding rates to those 
 now paid, grain at Memphis would cost 20 to 22 cents, and at New Orleans 24 to 26 
 cents per bushel. 
 
 But with railroad to Memphis to-day, we could save 5 to 7 cents at the rates now 
 charged on the Mississsippi River. And this saving would hold good pro rata on any 
 reduction which improved facilities in transportation might give in the future. 
 
 It is thus demonstrated, not by presumptive figures and contingencies in the future, 
 but upon actual prices, as paid to-day, that with railway connection between the Mis- 
 souri River aud the Mississippi — at the mouth of the Kansas and at Memphis — the sur- 
 plus of our annual product of 146,000,000 bushels of grain can find its cheapest and 
 most available outlet to market. 
 
 There is another element in this proposed route to which we have not alluded — that 
 of time. 
 
 The Missouri River, down stream, is not safe for navigation by night, and has never 
 been used by steamers descending the river — the practice always, and made imperative 
 by the rules of the underwriters, being to land and remain at moorings during the 
 darkness. It would require from three to four days for a fleet of barges from Kansas 
 City to reach Saint Louis, and longer in proportion to distance from all points above; 
 while changing cargo at Saint Louis and thence to Memphis would require eight to 
 ten days' time for our grain to reach that point. 
 
 Cars could be loaded at any point on the railroads of the Upper Missouri, or from the 
 elevators at Kansas City and unloaded into vessels or elevators at Memphis in from 
 thirty-six to forty hours, thus adding largely to the profit of shipment — saving a week 
 in time and the high rates of insurance above the mouth of the Ohio and in the Mis- 
 souri River. 
 
 There is but one more proposition in this connection to discuss, and that is the point 
 on the Missouri River at which the railroad connecting with the Mississippi Bhould 
 commence. We have assumed it to be at the mouth of the Kansas River — and for the 
 reasons : 
 
 That it is the nearest and most available point for the country in question to reach 
 navigation, as an examination of the map demonstrates ; 
 
 It has been so recognized by becoming the converging point for the great trunk 
 lines of railway already bnilt and in operation — being to-rday the commercial centre of 
 all the country embraced in this memorial ; 
 
 The Missouri River, below the Kansas, is open for navigation later in the autumn 
 and earlier in the spring, making a month's difference in navigation in some seasons, 
 over points above, and having a larger volume of water, is safer for river craft and 
 heavier tonnage than above the mouth of the Kansas ; 
 
 And it is the nearest point at which the Missouri River can be reached for all the 
 country west and north — the distance being increased from either above or below, aB 
 the map will demonstrate ; 
 
 And because the construction of this important work has already been commenced, 
 and over one million of dollars expended upon it. 
 
 We have thus briefly laid before you the leading facts in regard to the important 
 portion of the common territory of the Union, with which we are bound up in com- 
 mon interests and in common destiny. 
 
 We have shown that it produces nearly one hundred and fifty millions of bushels of 
 grain annually. 
 
 We have demonstrated that, as a meat and wool producing region, it surpasses any 
 other portions of the United States— and that as yet it is in the infancy of its develop- 
 ment in this respect. 
 
 We have not adverted to its wealth in iron, coal and lead— for the disabilities under 
 which its agricultural labors are immediate and pressing— but in all these mineral re- 
 sources it is equal to any portion of the Union. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 643 
 
 We have shown that by distance and other obstacles it is practically cut off from the 
 markets of our own cation and the world. 
 
 We have shown how by two natural and near outlets it can be placed, as to markets, 
 on a footing with the most favored interior districts of the Union. 
 
 And we claim that if so favored, and its products allowed to reach a market, that 
 the effect will be not only beneficial to its own people, but will open up to the indus- 
 trial masses of other portions an abundant and cheap supply of all the staple elements 
 of food, both now and in increasing volume for all time to come. 
 
 The, relief then asked by this portion of the people of the United States may be 
 briefly stated : 
 
 1. The improvement of the harbor at Galveston, so as to allow of ocean going ves- 
 sels to land at the wharves of that city. 
 
 2. The removal or avoidance of the obstruction at the mouths of the Mississippi. 
 
 3. To aid in securing a connection with permanent deep water and permanent free- 
 dom from ice with the Mississippi, as indicated by railway from the mouth of the Kan- 
 sas river to Memphis. 
 
 The two first come under the general power of Congress, touching river and harbor 
 improvement. 
 
 As to the latter, we can see no difference between connecting commercial points by 
 rail and by canal. And we are thoroughly convinced that, in all the projects sub- 
 mitted to you for the better accommodation of the different portions of the Union, 
 there has been no one proposed conferring so large benefit upon such important in- 
 terests and so large an area of country that can be afforded at so small a cost to the 
 National Treasury as this. 
 
 Were it within the scope of this memorial, or within the purposes for which your 
 committee has been raised, we could demonstrate that what we ask, to thus connect us 
 with the Mississippi, can be fully accomplished, and that speedily, without the expen- 
 diture of a dollar in money by the General Government. 
 
 And upon a favorable consideration of the matters herein presented, and its recogni- 
 tion by your committee as deserving the attention and consideration of Congress, the 
 method by which it can be thus accomplished will be laid before that body through 
 your committee. 
 
 R. T. VAN HORN, 
 W. H. POWELL, 
 On behalf of the Board of Trade. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Is the railroad finished now from Kansas down to Galves- 
 ton? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; we go there by rail. 
 
 Q. Do you know what the rate of charges are 1 
 
 A. I do not. There are no regular rates. We have not been able yet 
 to induce the people of Galveston to take hold of our grain crops. I 
 was down there last spring with a committee of gentlemen on that mat- 
 ter, and we could not get them to talk about much else except cotton. 
 They did not seem to understand the actual condition of affairs. It is 
 exactly eight hundred and three miles from Kansas City by the way the 
 rail runs. 
 
 Q. There are no preparations made now to receive grain, I understand 
 you ? ' 
 
 A. Eb, sir ; and one obstacle in the way is that there are two gauges 
 on the Texas Central Uoad. That portion of the road constructed pre- 
 vious to the war, up as far as Corsicana, is of the southern gauge 5 feet, 
 and that portion which has been constructed since the war, from Corsi- 
 cana north, is of the standard gauge. 
 
 Q. That compels a transfer, of course ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir ; and for that reason we have not been able to utilize the 
 road. They expect to change that gauge from Corsicana down within 
 the next eighteen months. It will be probably two years before it will 
 be done. 
 
 Q. How can Congress aid you in building a road from Kansas City to 
 Memphis? "What do you propose °? Is there any land grant ? 
 
644 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. No, sir. If Congress would guarantee the interest on the bonds 
 we would make it ourselves and pay the interest too. 
 
 Q. That is what you propose % . . 
 
 A. Tes, sir ; but it is for you, gentlemen, in your wisdom to devise 
 the mode. We will be content with any favors which you may grant 
 us. We have seventy miles of road bed about ready for rail. 
 
 Q. Is there any public land along that route I 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. There is no public land-grant ? 
 
 A. No, sir. It runs through some public lands. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. I understood you to assume fifty-two cents a bushel as the freight 
 from Kansas City to New York 1 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. What are the actual facts. What is the rate now ? 
 
 A. That is about corresponding. I took those rates, as we do not 
 ship any grain to New Tork, and cannot ship, and it does not pay to 
 ship; I took the rates as given and published in a document of 
 Congress by Mr. McAlpin, the engineer of New Tork, who gave an 
 estimate of what freight costs by ocean transportation, by rail, by river, 
 by canal, by lake — by all the methods employed in this country. I 
 took that as perhaps as near a standard as I could find, as we do not 
 ship any grain from there to New Tork, and had no rates. In regard 
 to other freights I will have to refer you to General Powell, who pays 
 freight bills, and who is more familiar with it than I am. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. (To General Powell.) What is the freight now from Kansas City 
 to New Tork City, Baltimore, or Philadelphia 1 
 
 A. In grain ? 
 
 Q. Tes, sir. 
 
 A. I am not familiar with them at all. 
 
 Q. Well, fourth-class rates ? 
 
 A. Fourth-class rates to New Tork are, I think, eighty cents a hun- 
 dred, I believe they were the last I paid. 
 
 Q. Eighty cents east or west ? 
 
 A. Eighty cents from New Tork west. 
 
 Q. Coming out? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is it from Kansas City to New Tork ? 
 
 A. It is the same rate that is made, and reported in. our papers, by the 
 different roads. 
 
 Q. Is there no shipment from your country to New Tork? 
 
 A. Tes, sir ; meats. 
 
 Q. What is the transportation on that ? 
 
 A. They are making some special rates. Eighty cents is the pub- 
 lished rate, but they get a less rate than that on beef. 
 
 Q. What is that rate 1 
 
 A. I do not know what it is ; I am not posted about that. 
 
 Q. I understood that you had a railroad now from your place to Gal- 
 veston. What is the number of miles and what is the transportation ! 
 
 Mr. Van Horn. It is eight hundred and three miles the way the roads 
 are constructed, using three lines of roads, making the connection by 
 Fort Scott from Kansas City, by the Missouri and Texas through to 
 Dennison. and by the Texas Central from Denuison to Galveston, with 
 the break of gauge at Corsicana. 
 
teanspoetation' to the seaboaed. 645 
 
 Q. What is the rate on grain ! 
 
 A. We have no rates. It has only been opened about a year, and we 
 have not been able to open a market there because they" tell us they 
 cannot handle grain at Galveston, owing, to the fact that the vessels 
 cannot get in within a mile or so of the wharves. 
 
 Q. In what way does your grain find a market ? 
 
 A. We only ship it in the form of flour to Saint Louis and Chicago. 
 What grain we ship generally comes to Saint Louis. Flour goes to Chi- 
 cago. We ship some flour to New York when the prices are favorable. 
 
 Q. How as to corn ? 
 
 A. We have not shipped corn anywhere except to Saint Louis, and 
 when we can get a high river and steamboats to take it, we take it. 
 Wliat we complain of is that we have no market— no permanent outlet 
 by which we can market our grain. 
 
 Q. What is corn worth now per bushel at your place ? 
 
 A. It has been from 25 to 28 cents all summer. It is about 33 to 35 
 cents now. 
 
 Q. W T hat is wheat ? 
 
 A. Previous to this panic we had prices which General Powell can 
 state better than I can. 
 
 Mr. Powell. A dollar and a quarter. 
 
 Mr. Van Hoen. Remember our wheat is winter-wheat, a large portion 
 of it. 
 
 Q. Do you make any shipments by river to New Orleans of pork ' or 
 beef? 
 
 A. No, sir ; our meats generally go to New York by rail, because the 
 shipment is in the winter mostly, when the Missouri River is closed by 
 ice. We cannot have water transportation at all from the latter part 
 of November until sometime in March, and sometimes as late as April. 
 No boats go that far up, because it is not safe. 
 
 Q. In considering your outlets for a market, have you taken into con- 
 sideration the Ohio Eiver and the central water-line ? 
 
 A. No, sir. We supposed that that was too far. The Atlantic sea- 
 board, at any place from Richmond up there, is practically too far for us 
 to' compete with the other grain-producing portions of the country. 
 We can get to the ocean ports at a shorter distance, and equalize the 
 cost in that way. 
 
 Q. State the difference in distance from your place to the capes on the 
 Atlantic by Richmond and also to New Orleans. 
 
 A. I could not without a map. In going down stream, if you will al- 
 low me to make a bull, a mile is not nearly .so long as it is going up 
 stream, either in cost or in time. 
 
 Q. Still the vessel has to come back in either case, I believe? 
 
 A. From here to Galveston harbor, where we want to get out, they do 
 not have to come back. In the Mississippi a vessel which can get over 
 the bar at the mouth of the Mississippi, even when deepened 25 feet, can 
 get to Memphis. A steamer from Liverpool can land at Memphis as 
 easily as she can at New Orleans, and that gives us one hundred miles 
 more rail than we have now to reach Saint Louis. It places us at Mem- 
 phis below ice, and at permanently deep water, where we have uniform 
 rates of freight throughout the year. 
 
 Q. If you will examine the route you wilLfind that tJie route I speak 
 of is several hundred miles nearest in distance. 
 
 A. It may be geographically. I do not express an opinion on that. 
 To be frank with you, we have never considered that as a practical out- 
 let for our products. It may be, and we would be glad then to avail 
 
G46 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 ourselves of it by way of the Ohio Eiver. We are now, however, ex- 
 pressing what we consider our local wants in this matter. We will go 
 by Prairie du Ohien if it can be made as cheap by that route. Ihe 
 truth is we have no markets in ordinary classes of products. With the 
 crops in Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio and the northwest it does not pay 
 to ship our products, unless, sometimes, to get flour to market. We 
 have never sought an eastern market until within the last few years since 
 the war, because the western, the mountain, and the Indian trade had 
 always consumed our surplus until since the war, and the immigration 
 and settlements and production of the country have made it necessary 
 for us to seek a market elsewhere. Colorado now feeds herself, and we 
 must find the shortest and cheapest outlet for our own products. We 
 can feed the world with beef— grass-fed beef which nothing can com- 
 pete with. Our beef crop this year amounts to five hundred thousand 
 head of grass-fed cattle. 
 
 Examination of W. C. Flagg, president of the Illinois State Farmers' 
 Association : 
 
 Mr. Flagg. Mr. Chairman, I will say, in order to prevent misunder- 
 standing, as we we are somewhat confused, as is necessarily the case in a 
 new organization, that I am not a granger, technically speaking. We 
 have two organizations, one of which is an open organization, and the 
 other a secret one ; the secret one disavowing and preventing so far as 
 they can any political action, but the open one feeling itself entirely 
 free. I belong to the open organization. 
 
 I take occasion to say this, Mr. Chairman, because both of these or- 
 ganizations are receiving some blame, and some praise, perhaps, which 
 we do not deserve, particularly from the eastern critics, who confuse the 
 two organizations. 
 
 A meeting which was held at Chicago barely a week ago was com- 
 posed of both of these organizations, so far as they chose to be repre- 
 sented. 
 
 I will lay before you, before I get through, the entire proceedings of 
 that meeting, so far as they were reported in the Chicago Tribune, in 
 order that you may have them for reference, if you should desire to see 
 precisely' what was advocated by the convention. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. When was your organization formed ? 
 
 A. Do you mean the one of which I am president ! 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. 
 
 A. It was organized in January last. There was a preliminary meet- 
 ing called in October of 1872, by a club in our State of Illinois, at which 
 about nine counties and about thirteen clubs, granges, as nearly as I 
 remember, were present. They elected officers, and appointed a central 
 committee and executive committee, &c, who, after conference by let- 
 ter, called a meeting at Bloomington, in our State, which was held, I 
 think, on the 16th of January, 1873. 
 
 Q. A State organization ? 
 
 A. A State organization composed of various agricultural organiza- 
 tions of the State, including special clubs and granges, having tor its 
 purpose the advancement of the pecuniary, intellectual, ami other im- 
 provements of the farmers of our State. 
 
 Q. The organization consists of the president, and what other officers ! 
 
 A. Of the president, vice-president, from each of the congressional 
 districts, the secretary, and the treasurer. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 647 
 
 Q. Then I infer from your statement that officers, as well as members 
 of your organization, are also members of granges, which are those that 
 you speak of when you say that they are not open ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. There is also, I will add, a State grange, which is made 
 up exclusively of the members of the local granges— the masters, I 
 think, of the local granges. Those State granges are organized as fast 
 as there are enough granges in the State to make it practicable. I 
 think, perhaps, in about twenty States there are now what are called 
 State granges that are made up from these local organizations. They 
 have also an intermediate organization, to a certain extent — a county 
 grange. That, however, I do not understand to be necessitated at all 
 by their constitution and regulations. The intention is to make a com- 
 plete organization, from the local to the national grange. 
 
 Q. There is one national grange? 
 
 A. There is a national grange which is made up, I think, from the 
 masters from the State granges. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. It sits in Washington, I believe, does it not 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it has only held one meeting, I think. This organiza- 
 tion was formed, I think, as far back as 1867, but has had only a nom- 
 inal existence until within the last year or so. 
 
 I now have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your dispatch 
 from Washington, stating that in case the Northwestern Farmer's Con- 
 vention at Chicago should deem it advisable to favor you with any 
 information or suggestions by delegates or otherwise, you should be 
 glad to confer with them. I laid the communication before them ; and 
 a committee of five was appointed to wait upon you and communicate 
 the results of the deliberation of that convention upon' the transporta- 
 tion question ; as well as such other facts as we might deem important 
 to place your committee in possession of what the farmers of the north- 
 west deem to be the important considerations iu this matter. 
 
 I. Under the first head — the action of the convention — I have to 
 inform 3 r ou that the convention adopted the following resolutions in ref- 
 erence to transportation. 
 
 That we most respectfully but earnestly request Congress, without needless delay, to 
 pass a maximum freight and passage law, regulating traffic between the States, and our 
 legislatures laws regulating it within the States. 
 
 That we demand the construction of railroads and the improvement of water com- 
 munication between the interior and the sea-board, the same to be owned and operated 
 by the General Government for the purpose of affording cheap and ample transportation 
 and to protect the people from the exactions of monopoly. 
 
 The first of these resolutions was adopted with nearly entire unanim- 
 ity; the latter not without considerable opposition, but the two, I 
 believe, cover nearly tbe whole ground of discussion. They affirm the 
 necessity, that the National Government should exercise the powers 
 given it by "the constitution, but hitherto little used, both to regulate 
 the existing lines of inter-State transportation, in which private parties 
 have an interest, and to build and operate new lines, which it shall retain 
 wholly within its own control. 
 
 Both of the resolutions, gentlemen, would have been rejected by any 
 similar body ten years ago. The doctrine of State rights would have 
 been arrayed against both and the teachings of political economists 
 would have been cited to show us how far private enterprise exceeded 
 public surveillance in results. The fact that both resolutions passed a 
 convention in which were numerous representatives of the State rights 
 
648 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 and Laisser Fake schools of politics is evidence of the strait in which 
 the farmers of the northwest find themselves. 
 
 II This brings me to the second duty assigned our committee, to lay 
 before you some of the facts upon which the action of our convention 
 was based. I presume you have already listened to the views ot the 
 Carriers and traders of our inter-State commerce, as well as to the rep- 
 resentatives of various schemes and lines of transportation that desire con- 
 gressional aid. We undertake, so far as we can do so, to lay before you 
 the wauts of the farmers of the West. In doing so, while we admit that, 
 like the merchant, the railroad man, and the water-route advocate, we 
 have financial interests to subserve, yet we disclaim any partiality for 
 any peculiar route, scheme, or method of inter-communication. We 
 represent a sparse and widely scattered -constituency that cannot and 
 ought not to be rallied in favor of any particular scheme, except so far 
 as it premises a cheap, speedy, and certain transit at an early day. In 
 other words, we claim to be, so far as our information goes, the best, 
 because the most impartial, judges of the routes for cheap transporta- 
 tion. I will now ask your attention to some statements that I take 
 from an address delivered at Topeka in September : 
 
 We have here, in the valley of the Mississippi, ten great agricultural States— Illinois, 
 Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, Ohio, and Wisconsin. 
 They contain 600,797 square miles ; 78,366,664 acres of which, or about one-fifth, was 
 improved in 1870. They then contained a population of 12,966,930 inhabitants ; only 
 about 21i to the square mile, but already nearly one-third of the whole population of 
 the United States ; 2,032,821 of these, or about 53 per cent, of those reported as engaged 
 ill occupations, were farmers. 
 
 As this comprises one of the most fertile portions of the globe, with a surface of 
 level prairie upon which a larger part than usual of agricultural labor can be done by 
 machinery, you will find that a large aggregate and part of the agricultural products 
 of the country are found within the borders of these ten States. According to the 
 census of 1870 they produced 67 per cent, of the wheat grown in the country; 57 per. 
 cent, of the corn ; 56 per cent, of the oats ; 38 per cent, of the rye ; 35 per cent, of the 
 barley, and 43 per cent, of the live-stock valuation. These percentages have been 
 increasing rather than diminishing since ; and there is prospect of a great but unknown 
 increase in the future. We cultivated, you remember, but one acre in five of our terri- 
 tory up to 1870. * 
 
 The estimates of the Department of Agriculture for 1872 show that we produced 
 about 60 per cent, of the wheat of the country that year, and nearly 70 per cent, of the, 
 corn. Assuming that 7 bushels of wheat per head are consumed in bread, seed, and 
 waste in the wheat-producing regions, 5 bushels in the non-wheat-producing regions, 
 and 6 bushels in those of an intermediate character, you will find, by reference to 
 these estimates of the Department of Agriculture, that New England was short some 
 16,500,000 bushels of wheat for bread. The Middle Atlantic States of New York, New 
 Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Delaware had not enough by 24,000,000 bushels ; Maryland, 
 Virginia, and North Carolina, growing considerable wheat, were only 4,750,000 bushels 
 short of a supply. South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, and Alabama had not enough by 
 10,500,000 bushels ; Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, and Texas not enough by 12,000,000 
 bushels. A large deficit, you notice, existed from Maine clear around our Atlantic 
 coast to Texas. The consumption of wheat in the Southern States, being in a much 
 smaller ratio to population than in the North, would diminish the quantities required 
 there, but the fact of non-production is as stated. 
 
 To supply this deficit, which amouuts in the aggregate to nearly 68,000,000 bushels, 
 we find a surplus of 2,750,000 bushels in Tennessee, Kentucky, and West Virginia ; 
 another of 22,500,000 in the Pacific States and Territories, most of which, however, 
 goes to Europe in vessels, and, finally and chiefly, a surplus of 65,500,000 bushels grown 
 in the ten great States of the Upper Mississippi of which we have been speaking. 
 
 If the consumption of corn could be estimated with the same accuracy, similar or 
 rather analogous results would be obtained. The average production of corn in the 
 United States in 1872 was 25 bushels for every person of our population. J3ut, with this 
 average, we find that while 53 bushels per capita were grown in these ten Upper Mis- 
 sissippi States, only 2J bushels per capita were grown in New England; 11 in New 
 York, Pennsylvania, 'and Delaware ; 17 in Virginia and adjoining sea-board States ; 20 
 in the Southeastern States of Georgia, Florida, Alabama, and South Carolina; 25 in 
 Louisiana and neighboring States, and 40 in Kentucky, Tennessee, and West Virginia. 
 The Pacific and Rocky Mountain region, unfavorable to corn-culture, produced only 2$ 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 649 
 
 bushels. So that, with some modifications, the same fact of a great deficit in one 
 quarter and a great redundancy in another reappears. 
 
 The fact is a partial result of the pioneer or grain-growing system of husbandry, 
 under which the newer regions grow grain in excess,' while the older diversify their 
 agriculture, and tend more to manufactures and other industries. But it is something 
 more. It is the result of physical laws, whose operation is eternal. The humidity and 
 summer-heat of this northwestern region mean corn. It always will he the great home 
 of this most important cereal ; and the same remark, though in a qualified and limited 
 Bense, is applicable to wheat. The grains can be produced more cheaply, and probably 
 always will be, here than in any part of the country, except limited regions in the 
 mountain and Pacitic districts that can excel in small grains. 
 
 But these grains, or their products, in the shape of flour, meal, beef, pork, high-wines, 
 &c, to reaoh these consumers of the Atlantic coast must be transported not less than 
 one thousand miles. The surplus, not a very large one, above home or American con- 
 sumption, must travel the same distance to reach the seaports. To do this it has -the 
 choice of transit from Chicago through the lakes and then down the Saint Lawrence, 
 or through the Erie Canal ; down the Mississippi, to which the waters of all these ten 
 States; except those of Michigan, are more or less tributary, and up the Ohio, to cross 
 the country by rail, or still down the Mississippi to New Orleans ; or, finally, by rail 
 along several different routes, controlled, however, by two or three leading companies. 
 
 The curious feature about these routes is repression of their increase. Between 1860 
 and 1870 the population of these ten States increased over 42 per cent. The mileage 
 of the railroads within their borders more than doubled, and the production of wheat 
 increased in an equal ratio. 
 
 Corn did not much increase, but live stock increased 50 per cent. ; 
 hay, .75 per cent.; and other products multiplied. The year 1872 
 showed the immense production, according to the Department of 
 Agriculture, of 156,228,000 bushels' wheat, 693,625,000 bushels corn, 
 5,563,300 bushels rye, 163,479,000 bushels oats, 10,092,000 bushels barley, 
 or 1,028,987,300 bushels of cereals. 
 
 Tet the water-ways to which these local railroads (now increased at 
 the end of 1872 to 28,878 miles) lead have not been permanently or 
 specially improved, and through railroads to the East have not been 
 developed with any corresponding energy. Secretary Randolph, of the 
 Chicago Board of Trade, states that no entirely new route to the sea- 
 board has been built from Chicago for fifteen years. And this in the 
 face of the fact that these ten States, with but twenty- one inhabitants 
 to the square mile, and with but little more than one acre in five in cul- 
 tivation, have only just begun their work of agricultural production. 
 
 Tou see, now, the situation. Here are immense stores of grain and 
 other farm products ; over yonder on the sea-board are the consumers; 
 and in like manner the peculiar products of sugar-planting Louisiana, 
 of cotton-growing Georgia, of coal-bearing Pennsylvania, and of many 
 other States, must go far and wide to reach the consumer. And as 
 transportation adds nothing to the feeding power of grain, the clothing 
 power of cotton, or the heating power of coal, although food, clothing, 
 and fuel are essential to human existence, the public welfare — the good 
 of both producer and consumer— demands that transportation should 
 be cheap. This is the need of the Iowa farmer, compelled to burn his 
 corn for fuel, and of the Massachusetts mechanic, who, although temper- 
 ate, industrio'us, and frugal, cannot now support his family, The corn 
 is worth at the station in Iowa, say, 15 cents per bushel, and hence it is 
 burned. It cannot be grown for much under $1 per bushel in Massa- 
 chusetts, and cannot be bought for less than 80 cents, and hence the 
 difficulty of obtaining cheap food for the operative. Is this wide margin 
 between producer and consumer necessarily and rightly used in the ex- 
 penses of transportation, inspection, storage, and commissions ? Can it 
 be lessened, in view of its being for the great good of the masses, that it 
 Should be diminished ? 
 
 Again, ours is a country of magnificent distances, whose population 
 
650 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 is migratory, shifting, and intermixed It is nearly 3 .,800 i miles i from 
 Boston to San Francisco, through Saint Louis, and nearly half that from 
 New Orleans to Saint Paul. It is a wide difference of climate, soil, and 
 productions that persistently affects our population and makes a tree and 
 continuous intermovement exceedingly desirable to prevent alienating 
 differences of temperament and thought from growing up and making 
 different parts of the Union hostile to one another. " In America, says. 
 Draper," transportation at the lowest cost assumes the attitude ot an 
 affair of the highest state necessity." . . • 
 
 The want of the industrial classes, then, pre-eminently, of wise 
 statesmanship generally, I conceive to be the cheap transportation of 
 persons and property throughout the United States. For that we are 
 contending locally in Illinois, against powerful moneyed corporations 
 that, having obtained special legislation and large subsidies of our 
 people, now refuse to obey our regulatory laws. We can and will ulti- 
 mately settle this matter so far as local freights and fares are concerned, 
 but we are powerless in the States that lie beyond our borders, in the 
 line of our commerce. The same is true of all our Northwestern 
 States. 
 
 Here are some facts affecting the matter of cheap transportation, 
 from the point at which we now stand, to which I wish to call the atten- 
 tion of your committee. Here, upon the banks of the great river of the 
 country, we should have, if anywhere, the cheap rates of freights and 
 fares, resulting from the advantages claimed from competition, both of 
 rival routes by water and rail, and from large business. 
 
 Taking up the monthly railway guide published in this city, I find a 
 table of what are called "adopted" rates of fare from this city to differ- 
 ent points in the United States. The word "adopted" you will notice 
 as significant of one of those conspiracies against the public interest 
 that are not unknown in railway history. I note some of the more 
 peculiar cases. Here are the rates from Saint Louis to San Francisco, 
 mostly over a road to which the National Government has grauted enor- 
 mous subsidies without due consideration. The distance is two thou- 
 sand four hundred and sixty miles ; the amount is $117.50, or 4.8 cents 
 per mile. To Sacramento, which is one hundred and thirty-eight miles 
 nearer, the charge is the same, or more than 5 cents per mile. To 
 Cheyenne, which is nine hundred and sixty-five miles away, the charge 
 is $48.50, or 5 cents per mile ; while to Denver, which is forty-five 
 miles nearer, it is $53.50, or 5.8 cents per mile. To Salt Lake City, 
 a distance of one thousand six hundred and fifteen miles, it is $97.50, 
 or 6 cents per mile, being the highest rare given in the table. This is 
 what roads in private hands, although aided by Government, have 
 done for us. 
 
 Take now the cities and towns along the Mississippi and its tributa- 
 ries, accessible by boats and affording water competition. New Orleans, 
 distant seven hundred and twenty-five miles, can be reached for $28.75, 
 or 4 cents per mile, by rail ; Quincy, one hundred and eighty miles distant, 
 can be reached for $8.45, or 3.6 cents per mile; and Cairo, one hundred 
 and forty-eight miles, for $6, or 4 cents per mile. Atchison, on the Mis- 
 souri Eiver, three hundred and thirty miles distant, can be reached by 
 paying $13, or nearly four cents per mile. On the other hand, the inte- 
 rior city of Atlanta, distant six hundred and sixty-five miles, can be 
 reached for $25.50, or a little less than 4 cents per mile, and Nashville, 
 three hundred and seventy-seven miles, for $11, or less than 3 cents per 
 mile, and the conclusion must be that the rivers exert little influence 
 upon passenger rates. The only evidence, if it be that, of -competition is 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 651 
 
 found in the rates to the eastward. Tou can travel to Lynchburgh, Va., 
 for 2.7 cents per mile, to Quebec for 2.6 cents, and to Boston for 2.3 
 cents per mile, which are the lowest rates found in' the table. This is 
 the result of what is called competition. On the other hand, the average 
 charge for a distance of about seventy miles on nine Illinois roads 
 diverging from this city is 4.69 cents per mile, and on three Missouri 
 roads 4.4 cents. I will ask your committee to compare these charges on 
 roads whose average cost does not exceed $55,000 per mile, on their own 
 showing, with what is done on the Belgium roads, costing nearly double 
 the amount, but run in the interest of the public, instead of for the sup- 
 posed profit of the stockholders. These are given in the London Quar- 
 terly Beview for April, 1873, and show the Belgian charge to be 6s. 6d. 
 per oue hundred miles, or about 1.58 cents per mile, for first-class pas- 
 senger rate's. 
 
 I will next call your attention to some figures from the Saint Louis 
 Democrat of the 2Sth of October, compiled from its commercial columns : 
 
 Freights by river and rail. 
 
 Flour, per barrel 
 
 Pork, per barrel 
 
 Whisky, per barrel — 
 Grain, per 100 
 
 Uacon and lard, per 100 
 
 Memphis, 349 miles. 
 
 SO 40 
 50 
 1 25 
 22i 
 22J 
 
 Eail. 
 
 $0 45 
 65 
 
 1 50 
 
 24 
 
 as 
 
 New Orleans, 725 miles. 
 
 Eiver. 
 
 $0 60 
 
 90 
 
 1 75 
 
 30 
 
 30 
 
 Eail. 
 
 SO 70 
 
 1 20 
 
 2 25 
 371 
 43 
 
 Freights by rail. 
 
 Boston. 
 
 Flour, per barrel . 
 Grain, per 100 
 
 $1 46 
 79 
 
 It costs, that is, to-day to send a bushel of wheat to New York, 39 
 cents ; to Boston, 42 ; to Memphis, by river, 13£, by rail, 14.4 ; and to New 
 Orleans, by river, 18 cents, and by rail, 22£. 
 
 I will ask you to note the fact that while in this case the river seems 
 to exert an appreciable influence on southern-bound freights, it is not 
 so great as we have a right to expect, nor nearly so great as is claimed 
 by the advocates of a water-route. Our information is that the Upper 
 Mississippi transportation is largely monopolized by a single steamboat 
 company, and I will ask your inquiry into the tendency to control, not 
 only the Upper, but the Lower Mississippi transportation by rings of 
 this description. Government regulation may be found necessary in 
 river as well as rail transportation, to prevent the extortions of monopoly. 
 Again, I will ask you to note the fact that although we have a water 
 outlet to the southward, the rail-rates to New York and Boston are 
 higher than from Chicago, where, on the 22d October, the freight-rates 
 to New York were 33 and to Boston 36 cents per bushel ; and that in 
 both cases the fact of water-routes does not avail to check the extor- 
 tion to the extent desired or expected. Yet railroads fetch and carry 
 more freight than steamboats to Saint Louis, and seem to continually 
 gain upon them. Here and elsewhere rapidity of transit, quick returns, 
 
652 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 certainty of carriage, and other considerations, seem to outweigh the 
 opposing fact of somewhat greater cheapness attained by water-transit. 
 
 The average lake and canal freight-rate from Chicago to New York, 
 for twelve years, ending with 1872, was 24.19 cents per bushel ; tor nine 
 years, ending with 1872, the rail-rate was 43.2. The Saint Louis rates, so 
 far as I am informed, were somewhat higher. Taking the figures of the 
 quotations of the 28th as our standard, and we may say it cost 39 Cents 
 to send a bushel of wheat from Saint Louis to New York, (or 33 cents from 
 East Saint Louis.) This is 12.4 mills per ton per mile for one thousand 
 and forty-three miles on the cheapest kind of freight (unless it be coal) 
 known to our commerce, hauled the maximum distance, with the great- 
 est profit to the railway company. I will ask you to compare this 
 charge with the cost admitted by the Pennsylvania Company in their 
 report, which, on all kinds of freight, on a great number of more or less 
 profitable lines, was 8.98 mills per ton per mile. Assuming the cost to 
 be as great in the present instance, 3J mills per ton per mile remain as 
 profit ; or, if we take the more. common rule, that two-thirds of the gross 
 receipts are absorbed by expenses, we have a surplus of 4.2 mills per 
 ton per mile remaining. I will ask you further to note that, according 
 to English reports, coal has been carried in. quantity, on roads costing 
 nearly three times as much as our own, for 3.2 mills per ton per mile. 
 
 In what I have said I have used Saint Louis, one of the most favor- 
 ably situated business centers of the West, to show you that, even from 
 here, the rates of freights and fares are not nearly reduced to the point 
 where they will best subserve the interests of the people. Add the cost 
 of reaching these business centers under local rates and the tax of 
 transportation becomes prohibitory upon many articles, and checks ag- 
 ricultural, manufacturing, and even commercial enterprise. A Tennes- 
 see farmer, near Nashville, was required to pay 7 cents per bushel for the 
 transportation of corn, twenty-six miles, to that city. An Iowa fruit 
 grower was charged $84 freight on a car load of apples ninety-one 
 miles, or nearly a dollar a mile car service. 
 
 Add to cases like this, of which numerous other instances might be 
 cited, the abuses arising from unjust discrimination, from the caprice of 
 irresponsible power, and sometimes from the malice of officials, and you 
 have a state of things under which the farmers of the West grow more 
 impatient day by day. Agricultural products have been abundant and 
 cheap, and under the existing state of transportation the farmers have 
 had to lose. New York prices, less transportation, are Western prices 
 for articles of export, and when prices in New York are low and trans- 
 portation high it brings the price in our markets below the cost of pro- 
 duction. 1 think a bushel of corn cannot be produced, on the average, 
 in the northwest for less than 30 cents, but many have been sold during 
 the last twelve months for 5, 10 and even 15 cents below the cost of 
 growing. Let a general failure of our Western crops come and the 
 eastern market-men will find it difficult to buy bread under the existing 
 transportation rates. 
 
 Hence, Mr. Chairman, we demand of our Eepresentatives in Congress, 
 the regulation and improvement of existing routes of transportation 
 and the construction or opening of new lines of transportation. We 
 feel that, individually, we should be protected from the invasion and ex- 
 tortion of corporate moneyed monopolies. Bail, lake, canal, and river 
 transporters and transportation companies should be made to serve the 
 public at reasonable rates, without combination or discrimination, or be 
 compelled to make way for those who will. We ask that this be done 
 promptly and thoroughly. I think we are entirely agreed in asking the 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 653 
 
 immediate improvement of the mouth of the Mississippi as a means of 
 southern exit, and of the mouths of the lakes as a means of northern 
 exit by water. But, as water-routes are not always navigable, we also 
 ask, though with less unanimity, freight-lines that, under control of 
 Government, shall run at cheap, fixed, and uniform rates throughout 
 the year, on the principal of furnishing a maximum of service for a 
 minimum cost — the same principle upon which the post-office system is 
 managed. We do not ask this for the benefit of ourselves simply, but 
 in the interest of the whole people, who need, equally with us, that trans- 
 portation should be placed as near cost as practicable. 
 
 My associate, Mr. Tuffts, will also submit some additional suggestions, 
 which I cordially indorse. 
 
 MEETING OF THE NORTHWESTERN FARMERS' CONVENTION. 
 
 FIRST DAY. 
 
 MORNING SESSION. 
 
 The north western farmers' convention assembled in MoCormiek's Hall at 10 o'clock 
 yesterday morning. The attendance at the opening was very large. The fine hall 
 looked as neat as a new pin, but was as chilly as an iceberg. 
 
 The meeting was called to prder by the Hon. W. C. Flagg, of Illinois, who read the 
 call as published in The Tribune yesterday. 
 
 Mr. 1 lagg then stated that this call had been understood by the editor of the Indian- 
 apolis Sentinel to favor the abolition of railways instead of railway monopolies £8 ex- 
 pressed in the call, a misconception that couid only have arisen from the fear of limit- 
 ing railways at that great central focus of railway tracks. The objects of the Conven- 
 tion called by the committee were three : 1. Cheap transportation, embracing water 
 transportation ; regulations by legislation, State and National, of existing railways ; 
 Government railways. 2. Perfecting organization in and between the several States. 
 3. .Perfecting and pressing upon State and National legislation the most easy and 
 prompt methods of relief. The central committee of the Illinois State Farmers' Associa- 
 tion had taken the responsibility of calling the convention and naming these topics as 
 proper for the discussion of the convention. He would ask the convention to nominate 
 a temporary chairman. 
 
 Temporary officers. 
 
 W. C. Flagg was nominated as temporary chairman, and unanimously elected. 
 
 Mr. Flagg declined to serve. 
 
 Mr. C. D. Beman, of Waucan, Iowa, was nominated, and unanimously elected. 
 
 Mr. Beman expressed his pleasure at the convention. He was on his way to New 
 York to organize a State grauge there, but remembering that the convention was in 
 session, he remained there. The question of cheap transportation was one of impor- 
 tance to the States of Iowa and Illinois especially, which alone produced last year 
 400,000,000 bushels of grain, most of which was conveyed to the seaboard. 
 
 Mr. Hitt, of Oregon, was nominated temporary secretary, and elected. Mr. Hitt 
 could not serve. 
 
 Mr. S. M. Smith, secretary of the Illinois organization, was appointed to the place. 
 
 Credentials. 
 
 A motion was made to appoint a'conumittee on credentials, during the discussion of 
 which Mr. S. M. Smith stated that precautions had been taken against intrusion by the 
 issue of admission tickets, and the appointment of a door-keeper, who would aid in 
 protecting the convention. 
 
 The announcement was received with cheers. 
 
 It was resolved to appoint upon the committee two delegates from each State and 
 province. When completed the committee was found to consist of the following dele- 
 gates : 
 
 Illinois— W. R. Schopp, M. M. Hootan. 
 
 Indiana— Henry Doupp, W. E. Lockhard. 
 
654 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Wisconsin — 0. B. Gooder. 
 
 Iowa— S. H. Dickson, A. S. Shaffer. 
 
 New York— H. S. Clark. • 
 
 The committee retired, and the convention adjourned until l.dU p. m. 
 
 AFTERNOON SESSION. 
 
 The convention re-assembled at 2 p. m. 
 
 Dr. Wight (Wisconsin) moved the appointment of a committee ot three on perma- 
 nent organization. v 
 
 O. M. Wight, Wisconsin, D. W. Dame, Illinois, and S. Clark, New York, were ap- 
 pointed. 
 
 The committee retired. 
 
 Mr. E. Pomfret, Illinois, offered a resolution limiting speeches to ten minutes. • 
 
 It was ruled out of order' at that time. • ... 
 
 Mr. Lane, of Illinois, suggested that they have short addresses while waiting for the 
 committee. , 
 
 Mr. Boone, of Jo Daviess County, said he would like to hear from Mr. S» T. K. Prime, 
 who was one of the originators of the movement, and the author of the Livingston 
 Countyplatform. 
 
 List of delegates. 
 
 The committee on credentials were announced, and the chairman reported the names 
 of delegates, as follows : 
 
 Illinois- -Wright Kemp ; J. H. Elliott ;.G. M. Palmer, Bureau County ; John Sweeny, 
 Putnam ; A. Malthy, Ogle ; J. P. Tripp, Boone ; J. F. Lewis, Douglas ; Luke Teeple; 
 W. Patton ; Edwin Lewis, La Salle ; Lafayette Andersori, Stevenson ; John Snelling, 
 La Salle ; A. D. Fisher, Putnam ; P. H. Hodges, Wayne; W. Belding, George B. Marsh, 
 Kane ; T. B. Wheeler, Kane ; W. H. Colton, Kane ; John Harris, Lake ; Charles Boone, 
 Jo Daviess; R. M. Milliken, Stephenson; C. F. Ingalls, Amboy; Edwin Lewis, La 
 Salle ; T. D. Church, Clark ; Charles Brophy, Kane ; Dr. H. D. Thrall, Wayne ; Otis 
 Baker, Grundy ; J. A. Cooke, Kane; F. B. McCauley, Ogle; D. H. Metzke, Iroquois; 
 W. H. Ives, Christian ; Oliver Talbot, Ogle ; C. H. Larkin, Kane ; Achilles Chinique, 
 Iroquois ; J. M. Thompson, Will ; William C. De Wolf, Boone ; H. N. Ingersoll, Will ; 
 Silas Hayes, LivingBton ; A. P. Coffeen, Champaign ; H. R. Conkling, Grundy ; A. P. 
 Loomis, Cumberland; W. G. McGill, Mason; Henry Funk, Shelby; Henry Martage, 
 Piatt; Jesse Bush, Piatt ; W. Lane, Ogle 5 G. S. Peabody, Christian ; Hiram Whittemore, 
 Kankakee ; A. Harper, Bureau ; S. H. Walker, La Salle ; Joseph Hart, La Salle ; George 
 Wallace, La Salle ; S. A. Greene, Marshall ; George Seboles, Marshall ; A. S. Myers, Mar- 
 shall ; G. W. Landis, Livingston ; E. J. Sutherland, Peoria ; L. F. Ross, Macoupin ; R. D. 
 Ward, Christian ; C. S. Gichultz, Ogle ; William Henry Greene, MeDonough ; Thomas E. 
 Compton, Iroquois ; N. G. Searles, Kankakee ; S. Hutchinson, Henderson ; A- McDou- 
 gall, Henderson ; H. M. Whitmore, Henderson ; Thomas Bishop, Kane ; H. W. 
 Rincker, Shelby ; Alfred G. Willards, Iroquis ; A. J. Graves, Boone ; John W. Hitt, Ogle ; 
 M. King, Henry ; B. F. McCutcheon, Ogle ; George E. Canfield, Ogle ; M. E. Pomfret, 
 Tazewell ; M. C. Colton, Kane ; H. C. Bliss, Bureau ; William H. Turpenning, Living- 
 ston ; James Hallett, Carroll, M. B. Lloyd, Henry ; Edward Roesslin, Shelby : Isaac 
 Weltering, S. T. K. Prime, Livingston ; John Folly, Putnam ; W. H. Blakely, Effing- 
 ham ; S. P. Tuft, Marion ; Thomas Wallace, Iroquois ; A H. Dolton, Cook ; John S. 
 Armstrong, La Salle; Oliver Townsend, Iroquois; A. B. Colwell, Iroquois ; F. A. 
 Harris, Iroquois ; L. D. Edwards, Rock Island ; John M. Ferris, Union ; 
 Arie Van Dolan, Coles; E. M. Hutchinson, Coles; William Niebolson, Will; T. 
 Wbeeler, James King, Lee; T. P. Lowry, Lawrence; Thomas Willis, Iroquois; T. 
 Bishop, Kane ; William L. Cohenour, Christian ; M. A. Doane, Lee ; Henry S. Bloom, 
 Kankakee ; Richard Seaton, Adams ; B. F. Whittaker, Putnam ; Samuel Licbty, Car- 
 roll ; A. S. McKee, Kankakee ; J. P. Day, Rock Island ; Luke V. Olphin, W. R. Sharp, 
 Champaign; William Peacock, De Kalb ; M. S. Arnold, Lee; B. Cook, Lee ; J. C. Field, 
 Cass; W A. Wickersham, W. H. Grinnell, Kankakee; J. S. Blackstone, Kankakee; 
 I. B. Colby, McHenry ; William Cooper, Kankakee ; E. P. Forbes, La Salle ; Edward 
 Rollins, Iroquois ; Samuel Parr, La Salle ; H. C. Barnes, Jonathan Stewart, Stephen- 
 son ; Joseph Boovey, Schuyler ; B. F. McHutchen, Ogle ; H. A. Graves, Boone ; Ed- 
 ward King, Iroquois ; J. F. Collins, Douglass ; S. J. Davis, Stevenson ; Ed. Hunter, 
 Bureau ; J. C. Smith, Adams ; W. Mattock, Kendall ; Thomas McD. Richards, McHenry ; 
 Sam Leitze, Kendall; J. M. Gridley, Will; F. P. Beech, Iroquois; William Welier, 
 Cumberland; J. W. Needham, Cumberland; M. M. Hooton, Clinton; Henry Funk, 
 Selby ; W. Doyle, Christian ; J. J. Foltz, Livingstone ; W. D. Hamilton, Macon ; W. M. 
 J. Smith, R. M. Gorsuch, L. F. Ross, Macoupin. 
 
 The following list of informal delegates entitled to seats, but not to votes, was 
 read : . ' 
 
 Illinois— T. Butterworth, Adams; J.M.Allen, Henry ; W. C. Flagg, Madison; J. L. 
 
rRANBPORTATION TO . THE SEABOARD. 655 
 
 Owen, Will; Dr. C. Perry, Marshall; S. N. King, Ogle ; S.V.Lapham, Whiteside; L. S. 
 Pennington, Whiteside ; J. W. Knapp, Ogle; W. W. Tilton, Lee ; M.B.Spafford.Lee; 
 U. C. Wheeler, Dn Page ; W.U.King, Ogle; A. L. Miner, Kankakee ; William A. Cham- 
 bers, Lee ; J. H. Hudson, Jo Davies ; D. W. Dame, Carroll ; Wilson Pottinger, Kanka- 
 kee; Lot Schofield, Kendall ; James M. Gale, Kendall ; L. P. Wood, Boone ; Albert War- 
 ner ; William More, Eoek Island; A.Webster; Ezra Hazard ; R. G. Benton, McHenry ; 
 A. J. Alexander, Iroquois; D. W. Dole, Kankakee ; W. A. McKegan, Livingston ; W. 
 Boyce, Livingston ; J. Henry, La Salle ; J: B. Cooley, McHenry. 
 
 Wisconsin— O. P. Gordon, Eock ; A. B. Deboie, Dane ; O. M. Wright, Milwaukee ; J. M. 
 Kellogg, Kenosha; William Reed, Eock; W. A. Webster, Eock ; A. Warner, Eock ; S. 
 Wixon,Kock. 
 
 Iowa — S. H. Dixon, Benton; H. S. Shaffer, Tremont; George Saum, Jones; J. W. 
 Pinckuey, Madison ; C. D. Beman, Waukegan. 
 
 Indiana — R. M. Lockhart, De Kalb ; John Q. A. Newsotu, Bartholomew ; Henry Donp, 
 Bartholomew ; W. C. Lockhart, Montgomery. 
 
 Nebraska — J. Sterling Morton, Otoe. 
 
 Minnesota — Thomas S. Smith,.Dakota. 
 
 Kew York — G. S. Clark, James Connolly. 
 
 Canada — Frank Turner and W. Capriol, Toronto. 
 
 On motion, it was agreed that ail officers of the Illinois State Grange and Farmers' 
 Association should be admitted to the convention. 
 
 On motion of William Daltoh, of Cook, all members of the Illinois Agricultural As- 
 sociation were declared members. 
 
 The same privileges were extended to all other States. 
 
 Permanent officers. 
 
 The committee on permanent organization reported, recommending the election of . 
 the following : 
 
 President — James M. Allen, Illinois. ' 
 
 Secretaries — S. M. Smith and S. T. K. Prime, Illinois. 
 
 The report was adopted, and Mr. Allen .called to the chair. On taking his seat he 
 said there was no question which could affect the people of the Northwest more than 
 this-question of transportation. It had absorbed his attention for many years. He 
 hoped the deliberation would be wise and careful, and result in good. He thanked the 
 convention for the honor done him. 
 
 Limiting speeches. 
 
 Mr. M. E. Pomfret, of Illinois, moved that all speeches be confined to ten minutes, 
 and no speaker be allowed to speak twice upon the same subject. It was amended by 
 reducing the time to five minutes, and finally passed in the original form. 
 
 Order of business. 
 
 Mr. W. H. Greene, of McDonough County, moved that a committee of five on order 
 of business be appointed by the chair. 
 
 This motion prevailed, and W. H. Greene, W. C. Flagg, Illinois ; 0. M. Wright, Wis- 
 consin ; R. W. Lockhart, Indiana ; and G. S. Clark, New York, were appointed. 
 
 Mr. Flagg inquired whether the convention was in favor of an evening session. He 
 therefore moved that when the convention adjourned after the present session it ad- 
 journ until 7 o'clock. 
 
 The motion prevailed. 
 
 An invitation. 
 
 Mr. Flagg presented a communication from Senator Windorn, chairman of the Sen- 
 ate Committee on Transportation, as follows : 
 
 ", Washington, October 19, 1873. 
 
 " TV. C. Flagg, President ofillinois State Farmers' Association : • 
 
 " The Senate Committee on Transportation will hold a session at Saint Louis on the 
 30th instant. In case the convention at Chicago on the 22d shall deem it advisable to 
 favor us with any information or suggestions by delegates, or otherwise, we shall be 
 glad to confer with them. Please communicate this to the convention. 
 
 " WILLIAM WINDOM, Chairman." 
 
656 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Shaup moved that a committee .of three be appointed to confer with the Senate 
 Committee on Transportation. ... 
 
 Mr. Hogg said he supposed that, before the convention adjourned, some resolutions 
 would likely be passed expressing the feelings and wants of the farmers, ine views 
 of the merchants had been given, but the farmers, the shippers of the grain, had never 
 been heard from. ■ 
 
 Mr. Hart, of La Salle, thought the motion premature. There should be more discus- 
 sion of the subject before any delegation was appointed. 
 
 Thereupon Mr. Shaup withdrew his motion. 
 
 Regulation of railroads. 
 
 N. G. Searles, of Kankakee, offered the following preamble and resolutions : 
 
 Whereas railroads have been built by large grants of public lands, and by subsidies 
 granted them by towns, villages, and cities through which they have passed ; 
 
 Whereas they have the power granted them by the State to run their line of road 
 through our farms, and even through our houses or barns, if they come in tie way of 
 their line or road, and appropriate our private property to their use without our consent, 
 and against our wishes and desires : , Therefore, 
 
 Resolved, That railroads are public domain, and, as such, should be under the control 
 of congressional law. 
 
 ■ Resolved, That we call upon Congress to enact a general railroad law, and put them 
 under the control of a department of the Government, or a bureau of the Government, 
 called the Department of Railroads and Transportation, that shall establish a uniform 
 tariff of maximum rates on the different classes of freight, and passenger rates per 
 mile on railroad, and rates per ton on water transportation from place to place. 
 
 Discussion. 
 
 Mr. Perry, of Marshall County, moved that all resolutions offered to the convention 
 be referred to a committee on resolutions. He subsequently withdrew the motion. 
 
 Mr. Searles said the question of transportation was not a new one to the country. 
 The railroads got all they could from shippers, and there was no fixed law to control 
 them. He believed if they were put under governmental supervision by a Department 
 in Washington, there would be an end to this watering of stock. 
 
 Mr. Perry rose to a point of order, but the chair decided against him. 
 
 Mr. Searles continued, saying that, in order to bleed the shippers, railroad corpora- 
 tions watered their stocks. They did it because there was no law to hold them down. 
 He called upon Congress to fix maximum rates from point to point. The shipper 
 would by this means be enabled to know definitely what would be the cost of shipping. 
 Such a law would tend to equalize the capital of railroads. 
 
 The speaker's time was cut short. 
 
 Resolution committee. 
 
 Mr. Beman, af Iowa, moved the appointment of a committee of seven on resolutions 
 by the chair. 
 
 The motion prevailed, and the chair appointed as such committee the following gen- 
 tlemen: C. D. Beman, Iowa; A. H. Dolton, Illinois; W. S. JLockhardt, Illinois ; T. T. 
 Smith, Minnesota; J. M. Kelley, Wisconsin; W. M. Hootan, Illinois; J. M. Norton, 
 Nebraska. 
 
 Mr. Searles moved to lay his resolutions on the table, which was done. 
 
 The Illinois railroad law. 
 
 Mr. Norton, of Nebraska, offered the following resolution: 
 
 Resolved, That a committee of three citizens of Illinois be appointed to report to this 
 convention the effect upon producers and shippers of the legislation on railroads in 
 Illinois, and whether they advise similar legislation in all the States. 
 
 Adopted. 
 
 The committee on order of business reported, recommending that the subiect of 
 water transportation be the order for the evening, which-report was concurred in. 
 
 The convention then adjourned until 7 o'clock. 
 
 EVENING SESSION. ■ 
 
 The convention resumed business at 7.30. 
 
 Mr. Caffeen, of Champaign, urged the following resolutions • 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 657 
 
 Resolved, That it is their next duty to urge the making of a ship-canal from the At- 
 lantic sea-board, by the way of the iakes, the Illinois and Mississippi Rivers, to deep 
 water in the Gulf of Mexico, by the National Governmei.it. 
 
 Resolved, That it is their next duty to obtain the assistance of our Federal Govern- 
 ment by an advance of 'credit for the purpose of building a double-track freight rail- 
 road from near the line of the Kansas and Nebraska, near an air-Hue as possible to 
 New York City. 
 
 Mr. \V igbt was iu favor of the route suggested, but was opposed to the Government 
 undertaking to build it. There was a bar across the Mississippi which §7,">,000 a year 
 failed to dredge and keep clear. A canal could be built making a way clear to the 
 ocean from New Orleans at a cost of $«,000,0Q0, and that would givo an outlet for the 
 west by way of the Mississippi, reducing the freight to Liverpool 20 cents a hundred. 
 If the railroads added 5 cents per hundred to their rates it would be equivalent to lay- 
 ing a tax upon the farmers of §50.000,000 a year. He was in favor of the scheme he had 
 mentioned, and of the Niagara route, but did not care that the Government should un- 
 dertake the work. They should elect men to Congress who would do the people jus- 
 tice. Ten millions of white men were being robbed every day out of half their earn- 
 ings by these monopolies. They should build a canal around Niagara owned by them- 
 selves, and not be waiting for action by a reluctant Congress. 
 
 Mr. Perry did not think it possible to build canals by private enterprise. The Gov- 
 ernment should do it, and then they should elect, to take charge of the public works, 
 men in whose honesty thevhad full confidence. [Applause.] The Government should 
 do it. 
 
 Mr. Bishop, of Kane, w r anted present relief. He was tired of working fifteen hours a 
 day. If they waited for ship-canals there would not be much of them left. Twenty 
 years of time would not build ship-canals that would do any service. The fact of it 
 was they were living too high. Their living was 75 per cent, too high. The extension 
 of patents should cease ; everything was taxed by a patent ; and then they were ground 
 down by an oppressive tariff, which raised everything to enormous rates. He knew a 
 man in Elgin who paid $3.50 for a hat, and the same man's wife found she could bny 
 the same kind of hat for 90 cents. They could not shoe a horse for less than 50 cents. 
 Were it not for the tariff the. operation would cost only 25 cents. They had to pay $75 
 for a stove that should not cost more than $25. A friend of his bought a suit of clothes 
 for $30, and when he came back to Elgin the tailors there told him they would not 
 make them for less than $55, and one man asked him $60. They should have a lower 
 tariff. [Applause.] 
 
 Mi:-. Lockhart (Illinois) was opposed to the Government going into the canal-digging 
 business. 
 
 Mr. Flagg was in favor of the Government doing anything it could do better than 
 private parties. The Erie Canal was better managed than the Erie Railroad, and the 
 Michigan Canal was run better than perhaps some railroads. There were cases where 
 the Government-did much better than private citizens. The Northern Pacific Railroad 
 was badly managed by private parties. When they came down to practice they should 
 ask what way they could get relief speedily and sufficient. The question was, which 
 of the routes would give the most relief for the least money ? There was the Kanawha 
 and the Niagara Canal schemes. Each had its favorite. The convention should choose 
 something, and thon urge it upon Congress. 
 
 Mr. Pomfret wished to move that it was the sense of the convention that water-trans- 
 portation would not give immediate relief. 
 
 Mr. Caffeen defended his resolutions. 
 
 Mr. Lewis-, of Douglas County, offered a substitute as follows : 
 
 Resolved, That the producing classes of the country can no longer endure the exorbi- 
 tant rates of transportation imposed upon us, and that we demand that our National 
 Congress take into consideration immediately the transportation question. 
 
 Resolved, That Congress open a cireumuavigable route by water, and also build one 
 or more double-track railroads from east to west, and pass laws regulating tariffs on 
 lines already built. 
 
 Mr. Hart, "of Lasalle, defended the Illinois and Michgan Canal, and stated that it re- 
 duced the rates of competing railroads. He was in favor, of getting all the aid they 
 could, State and national, to get some way for transporting produce to the seaboard, 
 either by New York or New Orleans. He would compel railroads to obey Jaw. They 
 were public highways, and should be under control like any other public corporation. 
 The Illinois law was partially in operation. The roads have professedly come under 
 the operation of the law, but, practically, they had not. Next January the roads would 
 be compelled to submit to the maximum rates being fixed by the commissioners. The 
 law was a move in the right direction. The sovereign people of the State intended to 
 control the public highways, which belonged to them — the sovereigns of the State. 
 [Applause.] He believed, further, in the National Government controlling through 
 traffic between the States. That was the right of the people, and they would demand 
 it. [Applause.] ,, 
 
 42TS 
 
658 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOAED. 
 
 Mr. Harris, of Iroquois, believed the trouble with them was they were all in debt, and 
 they had to sell their produce for what they could get. When farmers were out of 
 debt they could hold their grain until they got their price. If they were all of one mind 
 they could control the market. They Bhould be united. The farmers of this country 
 — the producers- of what the world needs — should not be slaves. 
 
 Mr. Cook, of Kane, believed there should be a ship-canal to the ocean. Eailroads 
 were robbing the industrious farmer out of the earnings of his labor. They should 
 have cheap transportation. [Applause.] 
 
 Mr. Dixon, of Iowa, was in favor of cheap transportation. It was necessary for the 
 laboring masses as well as to the farmer. Water transportation was slow, and he 
 questioned if acanal would do as well as the railroads are doingto-day. Eailroads could 
 be built aud run cheaper than canals. They should bring railroads down to hard-pan ; 
 fetch them down where they should be, and then they would have cheaper transporta- 
 tion. He gave instances of discrimination in Iowa. They needed immediate relief. 
 
 Mr. Charles Boone, of Jo Daviess, said it was not a question of how to send grain to 
 Europe, but how to convince his countrymen at home that they should pay higher 
 prices for it. The way for them to do was not to produce a surplus, that would need 
 transportation. It cost so much to eat the surplus that it would be cheaper not to pro- 
 duce the surplus. [Laughter.] He produced a surplus because he was in debt. He 
 wanted light on this point. Had had at home over (i0,000 pounds of live pork. He was 
 an over-producer because he wanted to get out of debt. But when he produced the 
 extra quantity, they depressed the prices and kept him in debt still. (Laughter.) No 
 matter how he managed, they got round him. They should remember, however, that 
 the Government was theirs, and if the G o vernment was corrupt, it was their own fault. 
 They could rectify it. They should make common cause with the working classes. 
 They need not send too much produce to Europe. 
 
 A gentleman reminded him America could not starve the world, and had a competi- 
 tor in Eussia. 
 
 Mr. Shaup, of Champaign, believed the railroads to the East were not increased fast 
 enough to keep pace with the new roads in the West. 
 
 Mr. Wicks, of Lasalle, believed they wanted financial reformation. $300,000,000 
 national-bank currency was put into the hands of bankers to make them rich 
 
 Mr. Flagg moved to refer the resolutions and substitute to the committee on reso- 
 lutions. 
 
 To-day's order of business. 
 
 The following order of business for to-day was agreed upon : 
 
 9 a. m. — Eailroad transportation. 
 
 10 a. m. — State legislation regulating railroad freights and prices. 
 1 11 a. m. — National legislation regulating railroad freights. 
 
 1.30. — Government railroads. 
 
 2.30 p. m. — How shall we perfect the farmer's organization in the different 
 
 3.30 p. m. — Co-operative buying and selling. 
 4 p. m. — Miscellaueous business. 
 
 It was decided to appoint a committee of five to confer with the Senatorial Commit- 
 tee on Transportation. 
 Adjourned until 9 o'clock this morning. 
 
 SECOND DAY. 
 
 MORNTNG SESSINO. 
 
 The Northwestern Farmers' Convention re-assembled at 9 o'clock yesterday morning 
 in McCormicks Hall, which was cold enough to congeal the enthusiasm in persons less 
 earnest than the gentlemen composing the convention. 
 
 President Allen called the meeting to order. 
 
 Committees appointed. 
 
 The following committees were appointed : 
 
 To meet the Senate Transportation Committee- W. C. Flagg, Madison ; Charles E. 
 Barney, Bureau; S. P. Tuftts, Manou ; J. D Beatty, Jersey ; sTt. K. Prime Livingston. 
 Marion railr °ad law-M. B. Lloyd, Henry ; L. F. Eoss, Fulton ; M. M. Hooton, 
 
 The first order of business was announced to be the discussion of State legislation 
 regulating railway freights aud lares. ° 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 659 
 
 Mr. Flagg's address. 
 
 The Hon. W. C. Flagg, of Madison, addressed the convention as follows : 
 Feixow-Citizens : A railway is a road graded and having rails of iron, wood, or 
 Btone, upon which carriages, with wheels adapted to the rail, may run. In their origi- 
 nal conception and execution they were private roads, built upon one person's land, or 
 by special permission of the person through whose lands they run. This kind of a 
 railroad, built without Government intervention, by agreement of the parties in inter- 
 est, might justly claim to be exempt from all Government regulation, except police 
 regulation, so long as it did not offer itself to do the business of a common-carrier. That 
 iB, it would do only the business of the person or persons owning the road ; would 
 undertake no public function, and would not exercise the power of eminent domain 
 conferred upon it by the sovereign power. This is the kind of a railway that railway 
 attorneys ought to be talking about when they deny all right of Government to interfere 
 with railway management. 
 
 But railways of that kind are few and unimportant. Government is generally 
 requested by the railway companies themselves to interfere in the inception of their 
 enterprise, to the extent, at least, of giving certain privileges to a corporation, including 
 the right to condemn and use the land of others. In England and America this is done 
 through a charter granted by the legislature under a general or special law. In Bel- 
 gium, France, and other continental countries it appears to be clone by " concessions," 
 which are very similar in their character to charters. In England these charters are 
 special for each railway, there being no general law on the subject; and, as they are 
 granted by act of Parliament, which is the sovereign power of the state, so they may bo 
 modified or repealed, in the pleasure of that body. In the United States most of the 
 railway-charters are granted by or under State laws, by special act, or under general 
 laws ; but a few lines have been chartered through the Territories, &c, by act of Con- 
 gress. 
 
 By these charters, granted by the State, which are what now most interest us, the 
 State transfers, or attempts to transfer, its right of eminent domain to the railway 
 company, so that the railway company may go in and take possession of such lands as 
 it may need on the alleged ground of its beiug for the public's use ; and also the town, 
 county, or township may vote subsidies to the railway company, on the ground that 
 such donation will be for the public benefit, or a corporate purpose. Having gone thus 
 far, the railway is evidently intrusted with a public function. It has secured privileges 
 to which it was entitled on no other ground than its being a work intended and pledged 
 for the public benefit. The State has given it extraordinary privileges which it had 
 no right to give, or else the railway company is no longer a private company, and owes 
 special duties to the public. 
 
 The railway company may admit the duty of a common-carrier ; but that is not 
 enough. Any person or persons who make a custom of carrying for hire are common- 
 carriers, without these extraordinary privileges, and are required to do all that is 
 reasonable for reasonable pay. The teamster between here and the next town, making 
 a business of carrying goods for all who offer, is a common-carrier ; but he has no right 
 of eminent domain ; he cannot solicit this town to vote him an encouraging bonus. 
 But the railway company is a common-carrier, and a good deal more. In the nature of 
 the case, it is its duty to make a special point of serving the public, even if the highest 
 attainable profits are not realized. The company has, it is true, a private duty to its 
 stockholders of paying the rate of interest that is reasonable on permanent and not 
 fluctuating investments. But, coincident with this duty it owes to the public, it serves 
 the duty of low rates and large business, so as to build up the country through which 
 it passes, to carry its increasing trade, and so as to attract, and not dry up and drive 
 away, enterprise of an agricultural, manufacturing, or commercial character. The 
 common-carrier can limit his business. He can set two wagons to work where there is 
 business enough for three, and you cannot require him to put on a third. The railway 
 company is in duty bound to find railway service at least to the capacity of the average 
 freight and passengers offered. 
 
 The common-carrier is liable to have his rates of fares and freight fixed or regulated 
 by law. He may sell his horses and wagons if he will, but so long as he continues in 
 business he must take such rates as the city ordinance or law of the State may fix. 
 We may say of the railway company, "If you do not like to carry passengers at three 
 cents a mile, you can sell out to some one who will, or tear up your track, aud let 
 another company see if they cannot serve the public at reasonable rates." ' . 
 
 But right here looms up the Dartmouth College decision. Just as the Dred Scott 
 decision was used to subserve one form of human slavery, the Dartmouth College case 
 is perverted to hold our hands while we are robbed. The Dartmouth College decision 
 was the most honest, and therefore it has been the most infamously used. 
 
 Railway-lawyers tell us that a railway is a private corporation. That the charter of 
 a private corporation is an executed contract between the State Government and the 
 corporation. That the Constitution of the United States forbids a State from passing 
 
660 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 any "law impairing the obligation of contracts." That a law fixing reasonable maxi- 
 mum rates by our State legislature is an impairing of the charter-contract s existi iig 
 between the State of Illinois and many or most of the railroads m it, and, theretoie, 
 unconstitutional. All of which is based upon the Dartmouth College case. 
 
 But, as I have said, the railway company receives and uses privileges which the 
 legislature has hardly a right to confer upon a private corporation, and therefore lias 
 admitted itself, by its own solicitation and acts, to be at least a corporation _ w th a 
 public function, and in no wise in a condition analogous to that of Dartmouth College. 
 Then it is by no means an unquestioned doctrine whether all charters, even ot P"vate 
 companies, are contracts. The Supreme Court of the United States I understand to be 
 nearly equally divided upon that question. It implies that whoever can buy or steal 
 a bill through the legislatuie shall be protected in his iniquity by that contract toi- 
 ever after, and is a most dangerous doctrine, if all our railway-charters, <■ conceived in 
 sin and brought forth in iniquity," are to be counted under it. In any event, we reduce 
 the railroad company to this dilemma: Either the State has conferred upon it, and it 
 has exercised, privileges to which it is not entitled, and is a trausgressor upon the rights 
 and property of others, or else it has admitted its obligation to serve the public tor 
 the public welfare, and is subject to regulation as a common-carrier, perhaps in either 
 
 Thus much in regard to chartered railways. A third class is not only chartered, but 
 receives a grant, bonus, or guarantee from the chartering power. The Union Pacific 
 has received immense donations of these kinds. The English government guarantees 
 a stated interest to the railway companies of India. The French government, under 
 Louis Napoleon, guaranteed an interest on some of the later roads. Germany has 
 subsidized and guaranteed interest and dividends. Our Illinois Central, and numerous 
 railways west of us, have .been assisted in one or all of these ways. In all these cases 
 the rights of governments to control and the obligations of railway companies to serve 
 the public are correspondingly increased. 
 
 A fourth class of railways, more spoken of than experimented with, are those built 
 and owned by the State or National Government, but leased under fixed rules to pri- 
 vate companies. This plan has its advocates in Great Britain and our own country, 
 but has not yet, in later days at least, been put to a practical test. Of these, the gov- 
 erning power would, in the nature of the case, have all desired control. 
 
 And, fifthly and lastly, I mention railways built, owned, and operated by the govern- 
 ing powers, as is the case of a part of those in Belgium and Prussia. Here, again, the 
 creating power has entire control. 
 
 These five classes of railways carry us from the entirely private to the entirely pub- 
 lic railway. I have gone over them that you may see how ideas and theories have been 
 confused in applying the differing rules applicable to each to the wrong class of rail- v 
 ways. You will notice that, practically, Government intervention is sought in all of 
 them, and that difficulties and disputes arise only in reference to the chartered and 
 subsidized roads, where private welfare and where the power and temptation to make 
 large gains by additional demands upon the public becomes very great. How to curb 
 and regulate this avaricious spirit for the greatest public welfare, is the most difficult 
 part of a difficult problem now before the Amercan people. We have monopolies, con- 
 spiracies against the welfare of the people in many other shapes, but not so mighty 
 and pervading as this. 
 
 Before going farther, it is well to notice here the confused conceptions that have 
 existed as to the nature of the railways and railway service. The extent to which 
 they would displace and supersede the turnpike, the canal, 'and even the rivers, lakes, 
 and oceans, as ways of travel and freight, was hardly anticipated, even by enthusiasts; 
 and the indirect, social and commercial effects that would bo produced wore foreseen 
 by no one. I suppose that we of to-day, in spite of the wild anticipations to which 
 the rush of railway construction might lead us, have still but faint conceptions of the 
 part they will play in the future. Yet, it is likely that narrow-gauge railways and 
 trains, or horse-rail wa.ys, will, before fifty years have elapsed, occupy the principal and 
 even the neighboring country roads, and that most men's farm-houses will have access 
 by rail. But few, however, anticipated anything of this sort. Yet, reduced to prac- 
 tice, it means that our highways shall be railways, and our railways highways. The 
 old Duke of Wellington very likely spoke better than he knew when he said of rail- 
 ways in Parliament, " We must take care and not lose the old English idea of the King's 
 highway," yet to that we must come at last. The railways of the United States and 
 of the Old World are its highways that must carry its travel and its commerce, and 
 that iriust be dominated by no feudal lords demanding tribute of all who pass. This 
 is what our new constitution of Illinois meaus when it declares the railways of this 
 State public highways, free to all persons for the transportation of their persons and 
 property thereon. 
 
 The peculiarity of this new class of highways arose from the fact that the people of 
 Great Britain, and still more the people of America, especially after a little disastrous 
 experimenting, about forty years ago, that demonstrated tha't neither state nor indi- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 661 
 
 vidual was very successful, in rail-way management, resolved to leave their building 
 and operation, under more or less regulation, to private enterprise. In doing this the 
 public function of tbe completed work was more or less lost sight of. The necessity of 
 protecting the rights of travelers and shippers was not appreciated. It was like turn- 
 ing over the roads of the country to turnpike companies, with the privilege, or rather 
 the concession, of putting down a turnpike-gate every ten miles, and charging tolls at 
 will of all who passed. 
 
 Feeble and somewhat inefficient, because inexperienced and often unintelligent, at- 
 tempts were made by some in the beginning to fix maximum rates ; but the prevailing 
 idea has been to rely upon competition. It was early assumed, apparently, that rail- 
 road would compete with railroad just as steamboat does with steamboat. England 
 and the United States trusted to this. You hear it preached even yet in Illinois. But 
 it is an utter delusion. As a rule, a railroad has a practical monopoly of tbe country 
 through which it runs. "There are many cases," said John Stuart Mill, in his Political 
 Economy, " in which the agency, of whatever nature, by which a service is performed, 
 is certain, from the nature of the case, to be virtually single — in which a practical mo- 
 nopoly, with all the powers it confers of taxing the community, cannot be prevented 
 from existing. I have already, more than once, adverted to tie case of tbe gas and 
 water companies, among which, though perfect freedom is allowed to competition, 
 none reaBy takes place, and, practically, they are found to be even more irresponsible 
 and unapproachable by individual complaints than the government. There are the 
 expenses without the advantages of plurality of agency, and the charge made for ser- 
 vices which cannot be dispensed with is, in substance, quite as much compulsory tax- 
 ation as if imposed by law. There are few householders who make any distinction be- 
 tween their water-rate and their other local taxes. In the case of these particular 
 services, the reasons preponderate in favor of their being performed, like the paving 
 and cleansing of the streets, not certainly by the general government of the State, but 
 by the municipal authorities of the town, and the expense defrayed, as even now in 
 fact it is, by a local rate. But, in the many analogous cases which it is best to resign 
 to voluntary agency, the community needs some other security for the fit performance 
 of the same than the interest of the managers, and it is the part of Government, either 
 to subject the business to reasonable conditions for the general advantage, or to retain 
 such power over it that the profits of the monopoly may, at least, be obtained for tbe 
 public. This applies to the case of a road, a canal, or a railway. These are always, in 
 a great degre'e, practical monopolies ; and a government which concedes such monop- 
 oly to a private company does much the same thing as if it allowed an individual or 
 association to levy any tax they chose, for their own benefit, on all the malt jiroduced 
 in the country, or on all the cotton imported into it. To make the concession for a 
 limited time is generally justifiable on the principle which justifies patents for inven- 
 tions ; but the State should either reserve to itself a reversionary property in such 
 public works, or should retain and freely exercise the right of fixing a maximum of 
 fares and charges, from time to time, varying that maximum. It is perhaps necessary 
 to remark that the State may be the proprietor of canals or railways without itself 
 working them ; and that they will almost always be better worked by means of a 
 company renting the railway or canal for a limited period from the State." Mr. Mill, 
 although a free-trader in the broadest sense of the term, you will see, recognized a class 
 of companies needing government supervision and control. Mr. Frederic Hill, in a 
 paper read before the British Association for the promotion of social science, in 1870, 
 expresses similar opinions, and confirms them from actual experience. He answers the 
 question, Why should not the state control* manufactories, and a mercantile marine, 
 and where is the line of separation to be drawn ? in this wise : " The true place for 
 this line, as it seems to me, is between things which can be multiplied indefinitely, and 
 in which, therefore, there can be an effective competition, and those in which, iu the 
 nature of things, there is a monopoly." " The nature of things," in the case of a rail- 
 way, I take to be the immense risk of competition on exactly the same liue. A road- 
 bed, so far as grading and even bridging and tieing is concerned, is "permanently in- 
 vested;" that is, if the enterprise is not successful a large part of the capital cannot be 
 withdrawn. 
 
 I may add to this the reasons sxiggested by Theodore Bacon in Old and New for Feb- 
 ruary, 1873 : " To give scope to competition there must not only be large and free de- 
 mand, but the possibility of supplying by many persons, from many sources, the ve.ry 
 commodity demanded. Such possibility the nature itself of railroad traffic, except in 
 very special cases, excludes." , 
 
 But all who have studied the subject will fully agree with Mr. Adams when he said, 
 in his speech in behalf of the Massachusetts railroad commissioners, before the railway 
 committees, that " while the result of ordinary competition is to reduce and equalize 
 prices, the result of railroad competition is to produce local inequalities and arbitrarily 
 raise and depress prices." 
 
 For instance, we have had a railroad system of some sort in Illinois for about twenty 
 years. Take the rAssenger-rates of periods six years apart, which I am able to give 
 
662 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 from old railway-guides. The amount of railway-service, and so-called competition, 
 has wonderfully increased. Our railroad companies have learned how to ' acquire'- 
 railways at very low prices. Our country is much more densely populated, and travel 
 indeiinitely increased. But here are the facts : .Iu 1853, of three railways m the State— 
 the Sangamon and Morgan, Chicago and Mississippi, and Galena and Chicago Union- 
 two were charging 3 and 4 cents per mile. In 1859, 3 cents was the average charge on 
 the different roads. In 1865, with a largely inflated currency, it was 3f cents on seven 
 railroads where rates were given, and in 1871, on eight different Illinois roads, converg- 
 ing at Saint Louis, it averaged 4£ cents per mile: and during the month of September, 
 1873, nine different roads, radiating from Saint Louis eastward, were charging, in deh- 
 auce of law and public opinion, an average on distances not exceeding seventy miles, 
 4.09 cents per mile, or more than 55 per cent, than when they began their work twenty 
 years before, and this in the face of great increase of business and supposed competi- 
 tion. 
 
 Here is what the joint select committee of Parliament said of "competition" iu 
 1871: 
 
 " That committees and commissioners, carefully chosen, have, for the last thirty 
 years, clung to one form of competition after another; that it has, nevertheless, be- 
 come more and more evident that competition must fail to do for railroads what it does 
 for ordinary trade, and that no means have yet been devised by which competition 
 can be permanently maintained." 
 
 England and America, you see, teach us the same lesson. Combination between 
 rival lines has destroyed competition, except that occasional " cutting of rates " makes 
 fearful fluctuations, in which a few shippers gain, but for which the general public 
 must sooner or later pay. Our railways, practically, that is, are regulated not by com- 
 petition, but by combination ; by due of the parties in interest, and not by both. There- 
 by you, the citizens of a democratic-republjcau country, are enabled to know how cruel, 
 relentless, and unscrupulous a thing is arbitrary power in the hands of a few. Regu- 
 lation by combination means that the railroad managers are feudal lords, and that you 
 are their serfs. It means that every car-load of grain, or other produce of your fields 
 and shops, that passes over the New York Central Bhall pay heavy toll for right of 
 transit to Vanderbilt, the robber baron of our modern feudalism, who dominates that 
 way. Regulation by combination means that yon, the large manufacturer or shipper 
 or consignee at this point, shall truckle to railway officials for special favors, and skulk 
 and avoid the " farmers' movement," when yon believe it to be right, for*fear you will 
 compromise your pecuniary interest. It means that you, the farmer, shall be compelled 
 to sell your corn below the cost of production, or that the consumer of the Atlantic 
 seaboard shall pay too much for his bread. It means despotism — paralyizing enter- 
 prise, rewardiug subservience, suborning legislators, corrupting society, and trampling 
 on the rights of the citizen. ' 
 
 Dissatisfied with the results of this kind of regulation, the party of the other part — 
 the people — ask governmental interference, and regulation thereby. This regulation 
 may be national, by act of Congress, which has power to " regulate commerce," not 
 only " with foreign nations," but " among the several States." " The legislature of the 
 . nation," says Pomeroy, (Constitutional Law,) " has exerted but a small portion of its 
 power to regulate commerce among the several States." Or this regulation may be 
 State regulation, confined, of course, to the limits of that State. This regulation again 
 may take the shape of regulatory laws intended to be self-acting in their character, of 
 placing railways under the supervision and control of a board of commissioners, or, 
 finally, by owning all or a portion of the railways and operating them, or having them 
 operated, at cheap and fixed -rates. 
 
 Our Anglo-Saxon turn of legal thought leads us to prefer a law to which those ag- 
 grieved can appeal, such as laws fixing maximum rates of fare and freight, and punish- 
 ing their violation. Parliament, at first, relied on tariffs of rates, but, Mr. Adams tells 
 us, they did not prove efficacious, probably because the whole subject was not under- 
 stood. Belgium inserted maximum rates in the original concessions. France makes 
 tariffs of maximum rates for each railway, and prohibits special favors in the way of 
 rates to individuals. Germany has no maximum rates. New York, in the case of the 
 New York Central, has succeeded in making a regulatory law of this kind effective as 
 regards passenger rates. Ohio, a State that has attempted much in this direction, fails 
 in getting the laws obeyed ; but the rates seem to be, for some reason, considerably 
 lower than in our own State. I believe the same is true of Michigan. Thus far, in 
 Illinois, our legislation under that head is faulty, but there is more determined effort 
 m that direction from the fact that our State constitution necessitates such action, and 
 the people have ratified that section by an immense majority. 
 
 The lack of success iu passing laws of this character is owing to the intrinsic diffi- 
 culty ot the subject and the ignorance of legislators. Probably not one legislator in 
 ten has informed himself, eveu tolerably, upon the history and experience ofraihvav 
 management and railway legislation. He comes to the discussion of a" very difficult 
 topic with crude ideas, preconpeived notions, and vagueness of purpose. I speak now 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 663 
 
 of the man anxious to honestly serve the people. He will be confronted with and 
 approached by members who represent, not popular rights, but "railroad rings," 
 and they will work upon his fears and prejudices to vitiate his action. Then, 
 as I have said, the subject is difficult. The circumstances that surrouud one road are 
 very different from those affecting another, or even the same road, at another time. It 
 is about as difficult to adjust a railway tariff as it is a protective tariff, and many are 
 inclined not to do it for the same reason. Charles Francis Adams, of the railway Com- 
 missioners of Massachusetts, regards relief under this head as hopeless, and the at- 
 tempt as futile. He quotes from the report of the parliamentary committee of 1872, 
 which says, " Legal maximum rates afford little real protection to the public, since 
 they are always fixed so high that it is, or becomes sooner or later, the interest of the 
 companies to carry at low rates." Bat, with all deference to Mr. Adams aud the par- 
 liamentary committee, I think our Illiuois experience and observation teaches tfcat a 
 uniform maximum rate of three cents a mile for passengers would relieve the public 
 and prevent a good deal of extortion, without much, if at all, diminishing the gross 
 receipts of the railways. I know a new road between Paris and Areola that put pas- 
 senger fares at three cents per mile from the beginning, and the result was relatively 
 better business than the old established-Illinois Central was doing in the same country 
 at four cents per mile. If the Illinois Central were forced to carry passengers at three 
 cents per mile I believe it would be for the permanent benefit of that road ; and it 
 would relieve the traveling public that live along it 25 per cent, of their present ex- 
 penditure for a given amount of travel. We want, in Illinois, at least, and for the time 
 being, a reasonable maximum rate for passengers. Again, take our freight, especially 
 our local freight rates, and we find them often far above a reasonable maximum rate. 
 A nursery-mau at Marengo, before the new July rates took effect, told me that if he 
 could get return loads that he could wagon trees in bulk to Chicago — sixty miles— r 
 more cheaply than he could send them by rail. The local freight rates of our railroads, 
 even before the 1st of July, were 4.72 cents per ton per mile, and 2.16 for through rates. 
 So that, as a temporary resource, I believe we should have legislation giving reason- 
 able maximum rates on freight. 
 
 But this rough and general way of dealing with the subject is not sufficient in itself. 
 We do not only want cheap rates, but the cheapest attainable rates. This is essential, 
 whether we look to the pecuniary interests and physical comforts of the people, or the 
 unity and harmony of our wide-spread population. "Anything which adds to the neces- 
 sary cost of transportation," says Mr. Adams, " aggravates the tax, and anything which 
 diminishes it, removes oue more burden from human toil." " It is not enough," says 
 Draper, in his "Civil Policy of America," "that there should be free movement for thought ; 
 free movement for the people themselves is of equal importance. That is the true metuod 
 of combating climatic effects, preventing communities from falling into Asiatic torpor, 
 and contracting senseless antipathies against each other. * * *^ Experience shows 
 that travel increases as its cost diminishes. Whatever, therefore, operates as a tax on 
 locomotion is iaconsistent with the highest principles of State policy. * * * In 
 America, transportation at the lowest possible cost assumes an attitude of an affair of 
 the highest State necessity." Hence we feel the need of something more flexible than 
 statute Jaw, that can adapt rates to different conditions and classes of railways. This 
 suggests the function of railw/ay commissioners assigned to our new hoard of making 
 up schedules of maximum rates for each road. This seems to me the best thing pos- 
 sible under our circumstances, but its success is, as yet, problematical. The commis- 
 sioners are hampered by a pro rata requirement that compels them and the companies 
 to fix rates according to distances ; whereas the expense of carriage, 'depends upon 
 many other considerations. But they have the opportunity to inform themselves of 
 the conditions and cost of transportation, aud making themselves experts, that no 
 legislative body can have ; and can ascertain how much is a fair compensation to the 
 railways, and not a gross extortion from the people. 
 
 But the great difficulty which the railway commissioners of our own and other States 
 have to encounter, I presume to be insufficient and vicious legislation, and the limita- 
 tion of their power by State lines. Our own railroad laws, owing to various causes, 
 are very unsatisfactory. Rival schemes, railroad attorneys, and honest but perverse 
 differences of policy, have prevented, thus far, our getting the desirable legislation. The 
 late law seems to me one of the best, although not much more than a modified form of 
 the common law of carriers. But we have no proper legislation as regards reasonable 
 maximum rates — none concerning railways as public highways. I notice some dispo- 
 sition already to find fault with the railway commission, but it is unjust. It seems to 
 me that they are making the most of the laws that are given them. They are men of 
 character and energy, and in sympathy with the people. But the limitation of State 
 lines will be a difficulty of a permanent character. Illinois commissioners will want 
 cheap freights to the sea-hoard ; but they are powerless. Indiana, Ohio, and New York, 
 at least, are in the way. National legislation or regulation is needed. 
 
 But while State regulation is possible by a State legislature or commission, the prob- 
 lem becomes exceedingly difficult when the whole nation must be legislated for, or 
 
664 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 when commissioners appointed by Government attempt to fix uniform rates for the 
 Central Pacific and the Old Colony Railways. Many would consider it an impossiole 
 task, and would shrink from the enforcement of such retaliations upon vast moneyed 
 corporations. This consideration introduces the theory and practice ot the L.overn- 
 ment ownership of roads, now a good deal advocated in England ; and, to a certain 
 extent, in the United States by Mr. Adams, Professor Aniasa Walker, and ot burs. 
 
 Mr. Hill, whom I have Already quoted, argues that State ownership will alone give 
 the advantages of competition, because amalgamations and agreements are soon made 
 by private companies, and State ownership alone furnishes a steady opponent to com- 
 bination. He adds: 
 
 " In confirmation of the soundness of the principle w.hich would place railways in 
 the possession of the state, I would refer to the experience of Belgium, where, with a 
 tariff of charges lower than ours, [in England,] and with no payments to the railways 
 for conveyance of mails, the government, iu respect to the large number of railways 
 in its possession, realizes an annual net profit of nearly 6 per cent., being much more 
 than the average profit from the British railways, or from those. Belgian railways which 
 are owned by private companies. 
 
 " In France, also, where the railways have-been conceded for long periods to private 
 companies, the state retains a. large interest in them, and will ultimately become their 
 proprietor. The financial results, as shown by the dividends, are far superior to those 
 of British railways, and this, too, with comparatively low tariffs, and with important 
 privileges accorded to government in respect to the conveyance of mails and troops. 
 In fact, the paternal system of government, however debilitating in its general effects, 
 has shown itself as regards railways highly beneficial, though I think it would have 
 been well if even there the governments had contented themselves with being the 
 . owners, and had always left their working to private enterprise." 
 
 Mr. Hill also, it will be seen, is opposed to undertaking the working of government 
 railways by state or national authority, and holds that in the most catholic sense state 
 control, after all, furnishes the only approximation to free trade in railway service. 
 
 Professor Amasa Walker, the political economist, in a late number of the Boston 
 Journal of Commerce advocates the idea that the United States Government should 
 buy or take possession of all the railroads of the country under the right of eminent 
 domain. As the railroads themselves would as a whole earn the interest on the ex- 
 penditure, he holds it would involve really but little expense to the Government. He 
 is justified in this by the figures of Mr. Poor, who shows that the net.earnings on our 
 railways for 1872 is 5.2 per cent, on $55,116 estimated cost per mile, which includes, of 
 course, a good deal of sunk capital that the present holders of the roads are not entitled 
 to interest upon. He would leave the roads to private parties, under conditions favor- 
 able to the interests of the people. " While, in private hands," he says, " the tolls will 
 be certain to be kfept up to such rates as to pay dividends of 10 or 12 per cent, at least, 
 the Government would desire only 5 or 6 ; that is, merely enough to meet the interest 
 on its bonds." 
 
 Charles Francis Adams, jr., is in favor of the Government's regulating railways by 
 owning a part, and running these so as to compete with and lower the rates of private 
 roads, as is now done by Belgium. Ultimately he regards it as " almost inevitable that 
 the National Government must, soou or later, and in a greater or less degree, assume a ■ 
 jurisdiction." As the present policy of Massachusetts, which has already several mil- 
 lions interest in the Hoosac tunnel, he advocates the acquirement of certain roads and 
 operating them in competition with private lines. He claims that only in this way can 
 competition be introduced as a permanent regulator iu railway transportation ; that 
 only in this way can we obtain free trade, the free working of the law of supply and 
 demand, from railway monopolies. 
 
 Regulation of our existing through-routes, by improving and increasing the water- 
 ways of the country, is a favorite idea in many quarters. A ship-canal at Niagara, a 
 canal connection of the Ohio and James Rivers, a canal connection of the Tennessee 
 and Savannah Rivers, the improvement of the mouths of the Mississippi, are among the 
 most prominent. It is probable that these could bo made quite efficient iu regulating 
 commerce a part of the year. But water evaporates and freezes up, iron rails never 
 do, and I look to the railroads as the future carriers even of cheap freights. Mr. Ad- 
 ams said that steam— meaning steam land locomotion — " abolishes the Mississippi 
 River." It does not do that, nor will, until grain and coal can be carried by rail for 1 
 mill per ton per mile. But rivers and lakes and canals lose their prestige and import- 
 ance, and railways alone, I take it, can regulate railways. 
 
 Regulation again is suggested and sought by dividing, practioally, the road and the 
 rolling-stock, making one company the owuer of tho road, and perhaps of the motive- 
 power, and another owner of the cars carrying the freight and passengers, thus secur- 
 ing, it is hoped, competition of different transportation companies on the same road, 
 just as that of teamsters conveying goods in wagons is upon turnpike-roads. The 
 various " colored lines," were they not porverted to baser uses in the hands of riu«-s 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 665 
 
 within the railway corporations, would speedily become something of this kind if they 
 had the right of transit over all roads. 
 
 I have now given yon some idea of the history and drift- of experience and convic- 
 tion concerning railway legislation. In the light of these experiences and speculations, 
 and in view of the peculiar government of the United States — republican federalism— 
 I shall give you my own impressions of what is desirable and best- 
 First, I would favor a general system of national highways, limited, at present, to 
 three north and south and four, east and west railways. If you will take a map of the 
 United States and draw a line from Omaha, through Davenport, Chicago, Toledo, Cleve- 
 land, and New York, to Boston ; another from Lawrence, through Saint Louis and Cin- 
 cinnati, to Baltimore; a third from Little Rock, through Memphis and Knoxville, to 
 Norfolk ; and a fourth from Shreveport, through Vicksburgh, Jackson, and Montgom- 
 ery, to Port Royal, you will have an illustration of east and west roads equally dis- 
 tributed and connecting most of the large centers of business with the best sea-ports 
 of the Atlantic. Draw other lines. One from Bangor, through New York, Philadel- 
 phia, Baltimore, Washington, Lynchburgh, and perhaps Atlanta, to Pensacola; a sec- 
 ond from Cleveland, through Cincinnati and Nashville, to New Orleans ; a third from 
 Chicago, through Saint Louis and Little Rock; to Galveston, and the same is done with 
 north and south connections. A fourth may, ere long, be suggested from DuLuth, 
 through' Saint Paul, Des Moines, and Leavenworth, and so southward to Indianola or 
 Brownsville. Extensions of the east and west lines and new north and sonth lines 
 could, if needed, ultimately gridiron our whole territory from the Atlantic to the Pacific. 
 But these, and even the special lines I have named, should be constructed or con- 
 demned only so fast as the States through which they run feel justified in assuming the 
 expense of their construction. At present, the great demand is for a new northern freight 
 route from Omaha to the sea-board. No entirely new route to the sea-board has been 
 constructed, as Secretary Randolph, of the Chicago Board of Trade, tells ns, for fifteen^ 
 years ; and yet the local railways of the Northwest, feeding these through-routes, have 
 at least trebled their mileage. Hence the demand made at Chicago and at New York 
 'for increased facilities; and this line, in some shape, will be built before many years. 
 A Saint Louis and Baltimore route is less demanded, because more reliance is placed 
 on the competition supposed to be provided by the existence of the Mississippi River. 
 Yet the commerce of the Upper Mississippi is already controlled by a monopoly that 
 owns or controls all the boats running in that trade, and the commerce of the Lower 
 Mississippi is impeded by causes of a similar character; and sooner or later the more 
 southern trade must ask for transportation that shall not be controlled by single com- 
 panies, but by Government. Again, there is not the present demand for north and 
 south lines that will exist when emigration has measurably filled up the country. Then 
 will come the more natural exchange of products between different latitudes — sugar 
 for wheat and cotton for corn — and the north and south railways will do the great car- 
 rying trade. 
 
 * Bub meanwhile, I say, let the roads I have mentioned be built so fast as the several 
 States and people through which they run are willing to make the investment, sub- 
 ject to the condition of working at minimum rates. The seven roads I have suggested 
 would have an aggregate mileage of about eight thousand miles, and would intersect 
 about twenty-five States. These twenty-five States would own, or at least control, the 
 bonds issued to build their respective proportions of these roads. The directorship 
 should be vested in these States, according to the amounts contributed by each to 
 build its portion. These States should be guaranteed a certain interest on the invest- 
 ment by the General Government, and the whole system should be constructed and 
 managed, as provided by national law, under the supervision of directors chosen by 
 these several States. In this way we would secure the co-operation and mutual inter- 
 est of National and State governments, and build roads that could not be sold out by 
 private monopolies. • 
 
 Secondly. In like manner I would like to see each State control the railways within 
 its own borders in this manner, provided the other modes fail. I would like to see 
 them have the power to build such roads as might, if they desired, connect them with 
 these national arteries of commerce on the same condition of minimum rates and pub- 
 lic service. 
 
 Thirdly. And in like manner, the power ought to be invested in every town, city, 
 and county of the country to build train, horse, and steam railways, just as they would 
 other roads and thoroughfares. In other words, to cany to its legitimate conclusions 
 the principle that a railway is a highway, and just as much to be made and controlled 
 by public authority as our common roads. 
 
 There are strong objections to this idea of governmental responsibility and control. 
 It involves large expenditure; but not nearly so large amounts as we give away to 
 secure the railways that oppress us. It will bring more or less corrupt management, 
 but not greater than has attended our efforts to work by private companies. It is 
 better than to build the Illinois Central aud donate it to an untaxable corporation, on 
 condition of pur receiving 7 per cent, of the gross earnings. It is better than to give 
 
666 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 away 300,000,000 acres of public lands for the privilege of being fleeced a; few years 
 earlier. It is as well as to pav from 20 to 25 cents extra tax on every bushel olgi am 
 or its equivalent that goes to the seaboard. The amount paid over and above fa,r 
 cost of transportation^ annually, from Illinois alone, would pay the interest on 
 850,000,000. It cannot be more corrupt than the Credit Mobilier, or the New York and 
 Erie management. The Post-Office Department is not only a political mactone, but 
 run by transient men of uncertain ability ; yet it supplies mail-matter to the whole 
 country with promptness, cheapness, and accuracy, compared with private express 
 companies. Upon the whole, I do not find that the large and unwieldy corporations 
 have much to boast of, except in the few cases where a man of great energy and ability 
 is at their head. 
 
 Personally, I am driven to the conviction that Government railways ot some kmd 
 promise the best ultimate relief. But I heartily join in the desire that other and more 
 local schemes of relief may be pushed forward to an early completion, if they promise 
 to partially succeed in affording relief from a despotism that now binds hand and foot 
 the producers of the fairest and most fertile spots of the new world. The agricultural 
 empire of the Northwest, consisting of ten great States, whose area is 600,000 square 
 miles, only a small portion of wh ich is in cultivation ; whose population is one-th ird of the 
 40,000,000 that make this mighty republic ; which produces three-fifths of the wheat 
 and nearly two-thirds of the corn of the country, lies paralyzed because of the railway 
 despotism that guards the outlets of her commerce. 
 
 Another " march to the sea" lies before us. A thousand miles away are the shores 
 and the people that suffer for the bread of which we have more than enough. Another 
 Andersouville, not of the victims of the slave power, but of a despotism equally cruel 
 and relentless, remains to be reached and its inmates fed. But the farmers of the 
 Northwest are coming out in mighty array. They spread out in marching columns 
 that cover the land from Minnesota to Missouri, moving on with firm purpose along 
 the great chain of lakes, through the passes of the Ohio, and down the Great River to 
 the sea. They ask only "equal and exact justice to all men;" that cost, not combina- 
 tion, shall fix the price, and competition, not conspiracy, shall rule in the trade and 
 transportation of the country. This they must and will have. They go forth to bat- 
 tle with an unscrupulous enemy, but the gates of hell shall not prevail against them, 
 for they are right. 
 
 New arrivals 
 
 The committee on credentials reported the following additional names of delegates 
 entitled to seats: A. S. Myers, J. W. Hunter, D. C. Perry, D. B. Weir, R. M. Pritcbard, 
 of Illinois ; J. M. Pinkney, J. P. Just, James Holland, of Iowa : Henry Griswold, of 
 Wisconsin. 
 
 Reasonable rates. 
 
 Mr. M. M. Hooton, of Marion, discussed the means of estimating reasonable rates. 
 The money panic was caused because the laws of equity were violated. Greedy specu- 
 lation had corrupted all channels of trade, and the few were made rich at the expense 
 of the many. Punishment came sooner or later. There were two classes of investments, 
 the productive and non-productive. Productive investments were those which created 
 and increased the aggregate wealth of the country, and the non-productive invest- 
 ments those devoted to the manipulation of industrial products. When the wealthy 
 balance between these two classes of investment was lost, the result was detrimental. 
 He pictured a community ruined by reckless speculation, which diverted the money of 
 the country from legitimate channels of trade, and invested it in railroads and tele- 
 graphs through uninhabited regions. Banks advanced money on securities which in 
 time of panic could not be realized upon. The non-producers of the country had so 
 manipulated the Government as to get from it vast subsidies and monopolies which 
 had been used, not for the public good, but to corrupt legislatures and Congress. Stock 
 was watered to more than double its real value, and the money of the country being 
 diverted from its legitimate function. The crops of the country could not be moved 
 at remunerative prices. The people had come to their bottom dollar. They had 
 discovered that for years they had been paying rates on railroads alone of nearly 
 1800,000,000 above their cost. These frauds covered billions of dollars held for private 
 gain at the expense of the industries of the country. The producers would hardly go 
 on paying 10 or 15 per cent, on fraudulent certificates and bonds in which there never 
 was a dollar invested. The people were tired of this big confidence game, and would 
 stand it no longer. The stock markets and finance should be wholly purged of every 
 dollar of false stocks, and reduce the value of the real and false to the amount of the 
 real. This involved the breaking of many banks, brokers, and dealers, as well as many 
 innocent laboring men, but it could not be avoided. To continue the present state of 
 
TRANSPORTATION" TO THE SEABOARD. 667 
 
 things was only to defer the inevitable retribution, and make it worse when it did 
 ocrae. There was reason to fear that the worst of the crisis was not yet passed. The 
 struggles of the financial cormorants who had amassed millions through frauds would 
 he terrible before they could bemade to disgorge $2,000,000,000. To remove false stocks 
 from the business of the country would necessarily cause great commotion, but it would 
 have to he done before there would be a solid basis of finance. When the crisis was 
 passed the money of the country would be used in legitimate trade, would be suffi- 
 ciently abundant to pay fair prices for agricultural products, and the country would 
 enter upon an era of prosperity never equaled. The voters should see that every office- 
 holder, whose hands were tarnished with monopolies, credit mobiliers, salary-grab, 
 back pay, or forward pay, was retired to private life, or to the penitentiary. [Ap- 
 plause.] Reforms necessarily moved slowly when the officers of the Government were 
 bought and sold like cattle in the open market. As the producers of the country had 
 to pay the income on the unproductive investments that any rate which exceeded the 
 producer's rate of income would be unreasonable. The legal rate of interest might not 
 be reasonable, as it might be too high or too low.\ It was arbitrary, and therefore had 
 none of the elements of reasonableness in it. He denounced the iniquities and corrup- 
 tion of the times, and concluded amid applause. 
 
 THE RESOLUTIONS. 
 
 The committee on resolutions reported, through Mr. Beman, of Iowa, as follows : 
 
 The duty of a government is to protect its people. Capital directed by unscrupulous 
 minds reaps the profits of their labor. Men of great wealth revel in luxury, while 
 those who earn the money are destitute of the comforts of life. Our State legislatures 
 have made laws depriving ns of our land, for which we have a title from the General 
 Government, for the benefit of railroad companies, because it seemed for the public 
 good. Subsidies have been granted them, and Congress has, with a lavish hatid, given 
 them public lands^the people's inheritance — and the result is extortion, oppression. 
 Therefore, 
 
 Resolved, By this convention,'that we most respectfully, but earnestly, request Con- 
 gress to, without needless delay, pass a maximum freight and passenger law regulat- 
 ing tariff between the States, and our legislatures a law regulating it within the States ; 
 and we hereby protest against the further granting of any subsidies whatever to pri- 
 vate corporations of any kind. 
 
 Be8olved, That experience has proved that freight by water is cheapest, and we most 
 respectfully ask that Congress relieve us of our burdens speedily and take measures to 
 open water-routes from the Mississippi to the seaboard. 
 
 Resolved, That to lessen the burdens of transportation is to, as far as possible, do with- 
 out transportation, and, therefore, we ask and urge our people to do all in their power 
 to create and sustain with patronage home manufactories. 
 
 Resolved, That we bail with pleasure the prospect of the early completion of the \ 
 double-track Continental Freight Railway from the city of New York to Omaha, which \ 
 promises that grain shall be transported over said railway at a cost not exceeding 8 \ 
 mills per ton per mile. 
 
 Resolved, That debt should ever be held as one of our greatest enemies ; that it de- 
 prives us of manliness, and in a measure makes us slaves ; that to live within our 
 means, however small, to pay as we go, will contribute to our success ; recognizing the 
 fact that the people are in earnest, we would urge then>to free themselves of this curse, 
 so that if a final struggle must come between the people and monopoly, our houses 
 must be in order, and we the better able to withstand it. 
 
 Resolved, That no one industry can be protected by legislation except at the expense 
 of all other industries, and that we are opposed to all special legislation. 
 
 Resolved, That we recommend the thorough organization of the farmers of the coun- 
 try in local and State organizations for the purpose of reforming great abuses, and 
 dealing out equal and exact justice to all men. v 
 
 THE RESOLUTIONS DEBATED. 
 
 The question was upon reading the resolutions and passing upon them singly, and 
 the ayes and noes being indecisive, a count gave the vote to the ayes, and the pream- 
 ble and first resolution, against protective tariffs, was then read and unanimously 
 adopted. 
 
 The second, asking for water-routes, was read, and a motion to lay on the table was 
 put and lost. 
 
 An amendment was put to alter the phraseology of the resolution, so as to add water- 
 routes from the Mississippi by a ship canal to Lake Michigan. 
 
 Mr. Dore, of Bureau County, did not want this question to be passed upon without con- 
 sideration. There were persons present prepared with figures as to water and railroad 
 
668 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 transportation routes who ought to be heard. They had time before them to ponder 
 the matter, and they should deliberate well before taking any action. 
 
 Mr. Lloyd, of Henry Connty, thought the resolution shoald be worded^so asnotto 
 say that water communication is cheaper than rail; there was no need to make that 
 declaration. . . , , . , 
 
 Mr. Morton, of Nebraska, wanted this resolution well considered. As a class, they 
 are injured by class-legislation. The experience of the Northwest was that when the 
 Government took hold of a railroad the people snfierect. He opposed the idea of Con- 
 gress being asked to afford relief. It was what they were opposing— reliet ol classes 
 by act of Congress— and it came with bad grace from them, who were opposing class- 
 legislation, to ask for it. , 
 
 Dr Pennington of Whiteside, thought they should consider the question well before 
 they decided. The resolution asked the Government to open these water-ways by the 
 aid of miblic money. He did not wish to throw cold water on any private enterprise, 
 but they should not ask Government to tax the people millions for that purpose. 
 
 Mr. Lewis, of Iroquois, desired present relief, and he believed the only object of thg 
 resolution before them was to get the eountry further into debt. He didn't like it. 
 
 Mr. H. O. Wheeler, of DuPage. — I trusted that this convention would consider well 
 before committing itself to the support of any new schemes, or'permitting itself to be 
 captured and strung upon the tail of any wire-pulling demagogue's kite. If the farm- 
 ers had undertaken in truth and sincerity to cleanse the Augean stables into which 
 laud-grants and subsidies had converted our legislative halls, tbey had work enough 
 on hand to last for some time to come, without going into the land-grabbing and sub- 
 sidy business themselves, or allowing themselves to be decoyed into it by anybody 
 else. He moved to postpone indefinitely the further consideration of the resolution. 
 
 Mr. A. H. Dolton, of Cook, as one of the committee reporting the resolution, explained 
 the objects of the committee. They thought that water was the cheapest mode of 
 transportation available, and they simply asked Congress to enable the producers to 
 avail themselves of it. The resolution asked for just what every farmer asks and 
 wants. 
 
 Mr. Connelly, of the Workingmens' Association, New York, maintained that this 
 resolution did not ask for class-legislation. If this resolution was not what was wanted, 
 then all their proceedings must be a delusion. The people should not only request, 
 but demand, that these water-routes should be opened, and if there was any other 
 agency than Congress by which this could be done, he did not know it. The interests 
 of farmers in the West and laboring men in the East alike demanded the opening up, 
 not only this route by the Mississippi, but by all other water-routes. 
 
 Mr. Lloyd then submitted his verbal alteration of the form of the resolution. 
 
 Mr. Beaman, of Iowa, chairman of the committee, then spoke in defense of the reso- 
 lution iu its original form. He insisted that private enterprises had swallowed up 
 $2,000,000,000 of public moneys, and yet they objected to a few millions for the good of 
 the people. He scouted the idea of the resolution calling for class-legislation. 
 
 Mr. Green, of McDonough County, hoped the original resolution would pass, as ex- 
 perience had shown water-transportation to be the cheapest. 
 
 Mr. Roessler, of Shelby County, lived 175 miles south of Chicago, and wanted to know 
 if the resolution would benefit his people. He was not sure whether it mean communi- 
 cation by the Mississippi, which would benefit his constituents, or communication by 
 the lakes, the benefits of which were not so apparent. 
 
 Mr. Floyd answered, finally, that his amendment contemplated several water-routes. 
 
 Moved to lay Mr. Floyd's substitute on the table. y 
 
 Point of order raised that tabling the substitute carries the original resolution with 
 it. 
 
 The chair thought it did not, and the substitute was tabled by an overwhelming 
 vote. 
 
 Mr. Flagg offered the following as a substitute : 
 
 Resolved, That we request Congress to take such means as shall give cheaper water- 
 transportation between the West and the seaboard with'out the expenditures of large 
 appropriations of money. 
 
 Mr. Lawrence asked how much cheaper transportation would be after all these canals 
 were built than before ? 
 
 A motion was made to adjourn. 
 
 Communications. 
 
 The president read a communication, as follows : From President Culver, of the 
 board of trade, offering the convention the freedom of the exchange and reading-rooms 
 of the association. 
 
 Winborn Lawton, from Charleston, S. C, sent an eloquent address, commencing by 
 referring to the want of just and cheap transportation, and the evils of railway mo- 
 nopoly, quoting the London Quarterly of April last very extensively on the latter sub- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 669 
 
 jeJt, showing the action taken by the British Parliament in the premises. The 
 
 writer goes on to deprecate any interference of a " governmental nature." He gives 
 the following table of comparative rates and fares in Europe : 
 
 ' Average rates charged .to first-class passengers for a journey of 100 miles in the 
 twelve, countries of Eurone enumerated. 
 
 InBelgium £0. 6s. 6d. $156 
 
 Inltaly , 10s. 6<t 2 52 
 
 InSpain lis. 9d. 2 82 
 
 InPrussia 13s: Od. 3 12 
 
 InDenmark 13s. (M. 3 12 
 
 In Austria 13s. Od. 3 12 
 
 InFrance 13s. 4<Z. 3 20 
 
 InNorway , 13s. 4<?. 3 20 
 
 Iu Switzerland 13s. M. 3 24 
 
 InHollaud 14s. Od. 3 26 
 
 In Portugal.... 14s. 2d. 3 40 
 
 In Russia 14s. 5d. 3 46 
 
 In United Kingdom ' 18s. 9d. 4 50 
 
 Total 8 9s. 3d. 40 62 
 
 (specie) for 1,300 miles, being an average of 3 cents per mile, the result of which fig- 
 ures is to leave on the writer's mind the impression that even Europe, with its dense 
 population and persistent efforts at reform, has failed to secure comparatively cheap 
 transportation ; and that the oppressive rates prevailing in the United States are far 
 more equitable than those of the countries quoted, except, perhaps, in the rates of pas- 
 senger fares. These facts stated, he refers to the new narrow-gauge railroad systems, 
 and looks upon them with much favor as one means of solving the railroad problem, 
 and concludes as follows : " The great point for the American farmer to achieve is in- 
 dependence, by marketing his produce. To secure this competition in markets and in 
 transportation is essential to success. That the South needs, and could consume many 
 more bushels of grain and pounds of meat, by direct and economical routes, is too patent a 
 fact for me to tell you, and she only waits for the Northwest to take the initatory steps to- 
 ward building direct roads to contribute her proportion bf land and money. The organ- 
 ization of an American Farmers' International Transportation Company, with a capital 
 of 1,000,000 shares of $25 each, payable in installments, will do more to solve the trans- 
 portation problem and unite our people than years of committee and commission work. 
 Members of the convention, I appeal to your patriotism, to your good sense, to move 
 at once in this matter, and not defer it any longer. The eyes of Europe are upon you ; 
 you have been accused of'agrarianism, and vilified as mischief-makers! It is for you 
 to prove by your work that you mean business." 
 
 Adjourned. 
 
 At 12.20 the convention adjourned until 1.30 p. m. 
 
 AFTERNOON SESSION. 
 
 Discussion on the resolutions continued. 
 
 i 
 
 Mr. Perry, of Marshal], when the convention re-assembled, moved to lay Mr. Flagg's 
 substitute on the table, and the motion prevailed. 
 
 Mr. Faris, of Union, moved to insert " aud along," after the word "from" and before 
 41 Mississippi," in the resolution. It was tabled. 
 
 Mr. Keeple, of Boone, moved to table the resolution. Lost. , 
 
 Mr. Flagg believed the resolution should be amended so that it would not seem to 
 limit its operations to canals from the Mississippi to the East. 
 
 Mr. Faris believed they should consider the interests of the great State of Missouri, 
 and enable her citizens to get to Liverpool by way of the Gulf. 
 
 Mr. West, of Iowa, moved to strike out the statement that water-transportation was 
 the cheaper. 
 
 Several motions were made, including one to improve the channels of Salt River. 
 
 They were all kicked out. 
 
 Mr. Boone, of Jo Daviess, offered a substitute demanding the construction of rail- 
 roads, and the improvement of water-communication from the interior to the seaboard. 
 He was tired of paying taxes, and getting nothing for them. He wanted the money 
 laid out for the benefit of the people. He looked forward to the time when all their 
 affairs, including transportation and finances, would be managed by co-operation. 
 
 Mr. Dolton, of Cook, believed in opening all the avenues of transportation by water 
 
670 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 as well as by land. They should not be quibbling and exhibiting jealousy of each 
 other. There might be men in the convention in favor of railroads who were opposed 
 to anything that would compete with them. Let them have all the new routes they 
 
 Mr. Harris, of Iroquois, believed the money would go into the hands of monopolies. 
 He would never give his consent to have Congress appropriate another dollar of his 
 money without his consent. Congress was too ready to appropriate money. They 
 wanted a new Congress of honest men. That's where they should begin. 
 
 Mr. Morton, of Nebraska, was opposed to asking Congress to do anything more for 
 them, but was in favor of asking Congress to do no more for monopolies. [Applause.] 
 Why did they not ask Congress to establish and run flour-mills for the benefit of farm- 
 ers? [Applause.] 
 
 The chairman hauled the convention over the coals, and observed that there should 
 be no frivolous remarks or motions. They represented the Northwest, and should feel 
 the responsibility and dignity of the trust reposed in them. [Cries of "question."] 
 
 Mr. West, of Iowa, conceived there was a wide difference between regulating rail- 
 roads and running grist-mills. He did not believe Congress was all rotten, for they 
 elected the Congressmen. The men who charged rottenness were generally rotten 
 themselves. 
 
 It was moved to refer the resolution to the committee. Lost. 
 
 Mr. Dore, of Bureau, was opposed to saying to Congress that the country should go 
 into the digging of canals. 
 
 The chairman, taking the floor, said he would regret very much if they went home 
 and had it said that they refused to adopt a simple resolution like that. The railroads 
 would chuckle and crow, and the people would believe that the railroads controlled 
 the convention. What would the Northwest do without lakes ? Would they throw 
 them away ? Suppose they were frozen in the winter. Freeze them up in the sum- 
 mer, also, would they? Did they want to close them up? Did they suppose the Erie 
 Canal was of no benefit? Without that canal and the railroads they would be burn- 
 ing corn all the year round. The improvement of canals would not stop the building 
 of railroads. He wished to add his own conviction to the testimony of others that the 
 resolution should be passed. [Question, question.] 
 
 The previous question was ordered. 
 
 The substitute was adopted as follows : 
 
 " We demand the construction of railroads and the improvement of water-communi- 
 cations between the interior and seaboard, the same to be owned and operated by the 
 General Government, for the purposeof affording cheap and ample transportation, and 
 to protect the people from the exactions of monopolies." 
 
 Mr. Richards, of McHenry, wished it understood that they did not want too much 
 interference from Government. Chicago built herself up in'two years, and the Gov- 
 ernment had not been able to get the foundations of its custom-house laid in that 
 time. 
 
 Thanhs. 
 
 Mr. Flagg offered a resolution thanking D. Worthington, A. H. Dolton, and W. W, 
 Corbett for securing a place of meeting to the Chicago Pork Packers' Association, and, 
 to the Pacific and Briggs Hotels for contributing to the expense of the meeting. 
 
 Adopted. 
 
 Home manufactures. 
 The third resolution, relating to home manufactures, was carried. 
 
 Continental railroad. 
 
 The fourth resolution, relating to the double-track continental freight railroad, from 
 New York to Omaha, was then offered. 
 
 Mr. Coffeen offered a substitute, to the effect that it is imperatively necessary that the 
 people obtain from the National Government assistance or credit for the purpose of 
 building for themselves a double-track freight railroad near the line of Kansas and Ne- 
 braska, as near an air-line as possible to the city of New York. 
 
 M. M. Hooton, of Centralia, would indorse any national scheme for transportation 
 from the West, but he did not like adopting any resolution or substitute, that would 
 seem to indorse any particular scheme. ( 
 
 The substitute was again read, put, and by unanimous vote laid on the table. 
 
 The fourth resolution was then put, and lost by a unanimous vote. 
 
 Debt. 
 
 The fifth resolution, urging the people to free themselves from the curse of debt, was 
 carried unanimously. 
 
<;' TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 671 
 
 Special legislation. 
 The sixth resolution, opposing special legislation, was adopted unanimously. 
 
 Organization. 
 The seventh resolution, urging thorough organization, -was carried unanimously. 
 
 Illinois railroad law. 
 
 Mr. Lawrence, of Warren County, read the following, which was adopted : 
 
 Whereas the legislature of Illinois, at its late session, passed a law denning and pro- 
 viding for the punishment of extortion by any railroad companies within this State, 
 fixing the penalties at from $1,000 to $5,000 for the first conviction of any railroad 
 company ; from $5,000 to $10,000 for the second ; from $10,000 to $20,000 for the third, 
 and at $25,000 for every subsequent conviction ; which sums, when collected, shall he 
 paid into the treasury of the county in which conviction shall be had, for the use of 
 said county ; and whereas, upon due information furnished, it is made the duty of the 
 railroad commissioners to cause suits to be commenced and prosecuted for said penal- 
 ties, at the expense of the State ; and whereas the question as to extortion in any such 
 prosecution is one of fact to be decided by a judge : Therefore, 
 
 Resolved, That the people of this State have a remedy for the extortions to which 
 they are subjected by the railroads within their reach, and we recommend to the vari- 
 ous farmers' associations herein to furnish such information to the railroad commis- 
 sioners, without delay, as will warrant the prosecution of suits for the collection of 
 penalties to the full extent to which the railroad companies may be liable. 
 
 Resolved, That we recommend to the farmers and citizens of other States to secure 
 such action from their respective legislatures as will furnish them similar protection 
 against extortion from railroad companies within their several States. 
 
 A national committee. 
 
 Mr. Plagg offered the following, which was adopted : 
 
 Resolved, That the president and secretaries of this convention be authorized and in- 
 structed to appoint a national committee of five, and State committees of three, from 
 each State, Territory, and province of this country, whoso duties shall be the pressing 
 upon our Congress and their respective legislatures the importance and necessity of 
 speedy and efficient legislation controlling railroads, and other transportation com- 
 panies. 
 
 It was moved to adjourn sine die when they did adjourn. 
 
 Mr. Boone, of Jo Daviess, said they could not afford to adjourn sine die. The pro- 
 ducing classes sustain the same relation in modern society as serfs did in the days of . 
 history. This was to be considered as an agricultural congress. 
 
 Several members called the question, and Mr. Boone proposed an adjournment for 
 one year, to the same time and place. 
 
 Mr. Flagg proposed an adjournment, subject to the call of the president of the State 
 Farmers' Association, which, he explained, would not prevent their meeting this even- 
 ing if they desired. And the resolution was adopted. 
 
 Co-operation. 
 • 
 
 The Rev. William R. Alger, of Boston, spoke on the subject of co-operative buying 
 and selling. The great necessities of mankind were — first, air; second, food; third, 
 warmth, shelter, clothing, and fire; fourth, light ; fifth, society. Those aro the primal 
 necessities in their order. When the five are fulfilled the common desire of mankind is 
 to enlarge our intellectual powers, so as to expand the powers of f:he race. Looking 
 back, we find the race shuddering in dark caves', preying on each other ; the race had 
 gone on step by step until now, when innumerable signals of light appeared ; one was 
 the formation of the International Workingmen's Association, and the second that of ,. 
 the Granges. It was said that an earthquake took the nerve out of the strongest man. 
 Now, we see for the first time in the history of the world, in the linking of hands of the 
 farmer and mechanic, the upheaving of the elements of industry. They did not want 
 antagonism but sympathy and intercommunication. The greater these the swifter the 
 happy result. The laboring classes have been different from the governing classes by 
 limited knowledge. Thus far the rulers have had the advantage over the laboring 
 classes, and, until the present age, they have monopolized the riches, the pursuits, and 
 the thoughts of the world. A new age of instant communication is drawing upon us. 
 At one time a king — take Rothschild — had his relays of horses, and news was convoyed 
 
672 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD.- 
 
 directly to bis ear exclusively. Now, the newspaper carried to the door of ' e ™*?V°°* 
 man a thousand times more information than any sultan or king ever cou / a ™, ,^7,": 
 If the Government continues to be run by any particular class of ™V«™ 1 ™™ 
 fault of the voters. Allow no man to be elected to office who will not stuuy^ ineq ues- 
 tions of interest to the American people, or who will not do his duty. The monien you 
 inaugurate a movement superseding party politics with social science, the present trou- 
 bles will cease. A time would arrive when harmony would be produced by the aid ot 
 science. 
 
 A vote of thanks was returned to Mr. Alger for his eloquent address. ,..,,,. 
 
 Mr. W. H. Greene, of McDonough, urged further State organization, by which nelelt 
 sure a good work could be accomplished. Adjourned until 7 p. m. 
 
 EVENING SESSION. 
 
 The convention re-assembled at 7.30 p. m. 
 
 A communication was read from the National Board of Trade, inviting the conven- 
 tion to attend their sessions. 
 The invitation was accepted, and thanks were returned. 
 
 The Huron and Erie Ship-Canal. 
 
 Mr. F. C. Capreal, of Canada, the representative of a company organized with a view 
 to shortening communication with Europe by the construction of a ship-canal connect- 
 ing Lakes Huron and Ontario, stated that the construction of this caual would lessen 
 the length of route by some 800 miles, and increase the value of grain 10 cents a bushel. 
 He was convinced that water was as superior to rail as gold is to silver, and would be 
 willing to convince a committee appointed by the meeting of the fact. He showed 
 that almost all the benefits arisiDg from such a canal would be with the western agri- 
 culturists ; the only profit accruing to the Canadians would be the toll charged passing 
 vessels. With this canal constructed, and the locks of the Saint Lawrence Caual en- 
 larged, sea-going vessels of 1,200 tons burden could load in Chicago for a straight trip 
 to the sea. We stated that a subsidy of 10,000,000 acres of land could be obtained, u 
 only the western agriculturists would be willing to aid the movement by issuing detent- 
 ures. The speaker referred to a previous occasion when he had in Chicago advocated 
 the building of the canal. At that time its construction was advocated in eloquent 
 terms by the then lieutenant-governor, William Bross, and several other citizens. He 
 was confident that, if the Great West only helped him, he would, in a few years, be 
 able to welcome the crowned heads of Europe to the opening of the Georgian Bay 
 Canal. 
 
 Crop statisiic8. 
 
 A delegate said he would like to bring before the meeting the question of the prac- 
 ticability of getting the crop statistics of the State. 
 
 The secretary said that he believed it could be done by school-sections, and would 
 be successfully accomplished in the future. 
 
 • Co-operative transportation. 
 
 Mr. Gilbert, of the Chicago Evening Journal, made an address on the subject of the 
 co-operative transportation of cereals from the West to the East. He complained of the 
 way in which the railroads were conducting business, and suggested that the railroads 
 and rolling-stock be owned jointly by the railroaders and the farmers, the latter pro- 
 viding the rolling-stock, and receiving therefor 30 per cent, of the profits of the road. 
 
 The Huron and Ontario Ship-Canal again. 
 
 Mr. Frank Turner, associate of the institution of civil engineers of England, engi- 
 neer of the Huron and Ontario Ship-Canal, stated that the caual, which would only be 
 60 miles in length, and notwithstanding many assertions to the contrary, could be 
 easily built, as had been stated by eminent engineers and contractors in London. The 
 estimated cost of the canal, without allowing for interest, was about $36,000,000. The - 
 Canadian government were ready to grant 10,000,000 acres of land to aid the enter- 
 prise, if only the United States would do the same thing. He referred to the proposed 
 Ottawa and Red River route, but said the engineering difficulties of that route were 
 very great. 
 
 On motion, it was resolved that Mr. Capreol be requested to place his plans for cheap 
 transportation in connection with the Huron and Ontario Ship-Canal in suoh form that 
 they may be incorporated in the printed proceedings of this convention 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEiBOARD. 673 
 
 Settling the price of .pork. 
 
 The following resolution was then moved and seconded: 
 
 Besolved, That this convention recommend to the farmers of the Northwest that, in 
 order to carry out in a practical manner the spirit and the letter of co-dperation, 
 they w ill hold from the market their live products until the price shall reach such 
 a figure that the producer shall receive the legitimate fruits of his labor, and we con- 
 sider that $5 per 100 pounds, gross, is a just and fair price both to producers and con- 
 sumers. 
 
 A lively but very oue-sided debate followed on the merits of the resolution, which 
 was finally adopted. 
 
 Railway legislation. 
 
 The following report was submitted and adopted: 
 
 The committee appointed to report to the convention the effect upon producers and 
 shippers of the legislation of railways in Illinois, and whether they advise similar leg- 
 islation in all the States, have had the subject under consideration, and would report 
 that its effect has not as yet been such as its friends contemplated ; that the cost of 
 transportation has not been reduced to the extent that was expected when the law 
 was first passed; but, when the railroads of the State are compelled to a strict observ- 
 ance of the same, it is believed that favorable results will follow. Your committee 
 respectfully represent, on the advisory portion of the resolution, that they are not pre- 
 pared to advise other States, but believe that the people of the other States of the 
 Union would be benefited by the passage of a law similar to the law of Illinois, or a 
 better one, if they can. 
 
 M. B. LLOYD, 
 M. M. HOOTON, 
 L. F. ROSS, 
 . Committee. 
 
 The meeting then adjourned sine die. 
 
 Examination of Samuel P. Tufts, representing the Northwestern 
 Farmers' Convention, recently convened at Chicago. 
 
 Mr. Tufts. Mr. Chairman, the views I propose to submit are derived 
 from intercourse during the past year, in the progress of our organiza- 
 tion in Illinois, with the people in their local organizations as clubs, and 
 in our several State, conventions, of which we have held three, the last 
 having been held in Chicago during the present month. 
 
 Fully concurring in the conclusions and statements of facts bearing 
 
 upon existing and new facilities of transportation, and the expenses 
 
 thereof, set forth at length by my colleague, Mr. Flagg, in the above 
 
 paper, I beg leave to submit for your consideration the following addi- 
 
 ■ tional recommendations : 
 
 1st. I would recommend the passage by Congress, of laws establish- 
 ing a maximum rate of 3 cents per mile for first-class passenger trains, 
 and such maximum rates for freight transportation as will insure a just 
 and reasonable return on the capital actually invested therein thus 
 affording a partial relief from existing abuses. 
 
 2d. The sentiment of the farmers of the West is certainly opposed to 
 all special or class legislation by Congress, or the granting of subsidies 
 for manufacturing or transportation purposes. I would, therefore, rec- 
 ommend such congressional legislation as will prohibit the enactment 
 of laws permitting these abuses. 
 
 3d. Fully recognizing the delicate nature, of the proposition, yet as 
 the farmers of the West are rapidly losing confidence in all propositions 
 for relief emanating from Congress; from the fact that so many of its 
 members are reputed to be pecuniarily interested in the commercial 
 routes of the country, I would, therefore, submit for your consideration 
 the propriety of enacting a law of Congress, the effect of which will be 
 to render ineligible to election thereto, all persons who are, either 
 directly or indirectly, interested pecuniarily in the construction or oper- 
 ation of any of the commercial thoroughfares of the country. 
 43 TS 
 
674 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By Mr. SHERMAN : 
 Question. You ask Congress to pass a law making a maximum rate 
 not exceeding 3 cents per mile 1 . 
 . , Answer. That is for first-class passenger travel. 
 
 Q. That is the law in Ohio. In some of the States the maximum rate 
 is much lower than that now, as in the case of the State of New York 
 on the New York Central, where the rate is but 2 cents a mile. I wish 
 to ask you whether you have considered the difficulty of making any 
 general rule that can possibly apply to the railroads of the United 
 States? . 
 
 A. I arrived at this conclusion of 3 cents a mile a good deal from our 
 legislation in Illinois and from the intercourse between our members of 
 the legislature and the railroad presidents in the State of Illinois. 
 
 Q. Then your resolution was rather that in the State of Illinois the 
 maximum should not be over 3 cents a mile? That would conform it 
 to the law of Ohio ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and I think it is sufficient for any State. To be sure, 
 there are, perhaps, some short lines of road that would, perhaps, require 
 more. In our State the law heretofore has been to make certain grades, 
 allowing certain roads to carry at such a rate and certain other roads 
 to carry at different- rates in proportion to their receipts, but it has been 
 very difficult to arrive at any conclusion, because all the evidence fur- 
 nished in reference thereto must come from the railroad companies, and 
 our committees in investigating this matter have found "it difficult to 
 get at accurate reports. When the law provided in our State for 3 
 cents per mile, Mr. Harris, of the Northwestern Road, and Mr. Newell, of 
 the Illinois Central Road, were present in the committee during the 
 conversation and framing of the law, and it was framed at 3 cents. It 
 was proposed to submit that to the legislature and put it through, and 
 they both said, " If you will enact a law fixing the rate at 3 cents, we 
 will come to it and will use our influence with all the roads in the coun- 
 try, because we think that it is a sufficient rate for our class of roads f 
 that is, the first-class roads. I presume that they of course would like to 
 have it fixed at that rate and have all the other roads that could not 
 perhaps carry it handily for that come up to it. 
 
 - Q. You have not answered my question exactly, whether you have 
 considered the difficulty of fixing a uniform rate by law of the United 
 States, because our laws must be general, and" we must have not one 
 law for Illinois and another for other States. 
 
 A. I do not apprehend that Congress can pass a law for Illinois or for 
 any given State. I may be misunderstood in that statement. It should 
 have been inter-State rates. I do not apprehend that Congress can fix 
 a rate for the State of Illinois ; that is, for local rates in the State of 
 Illinois, but for inter-State rates. 
 
 Q. Taking your proposition fixing it for all the States, how could you 
 deal with Massachusetts and New York, who have already adopted a 
 lower rate ? 
 
 A. Fixing it at 3 cents does not prohibit any road from reducing it if 
 they choose. Competition will regulate that. " 
 
 Q. The State laws already prohibit that, but can Congress make a 
 law that would operate only in one direction and not in another? 
 
 A. I would not ask you to prohibit them from running less than 3 
 cents, but that the maximum rate should be 3, and any State that saw fit 
 to reduce it to a less rate should have the privilege of doing so and 
 competition would bring it down as it is in New York. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 675 
 
 Q. . Would not the prohibition of a rate not exceeding 3 cents be in 
 effect a law allowing them to take 3 cents 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it would virtually, taking into consideration that compe- 
 tition might reduce it. I think our western farmers would be satisfied, 
 and perhaps the passenger travel of the country generally might be, at 
 a maximum rate of 3 cents a mile. 
 
 Q. But the people of Mew York would not be satisfied with that, 
 because there they have a less rate. 
 
 A. Well, they would not raise it to 3. They could not bring 
 it up. Competition will necessarily keep lowering it all the time. 
 
 Q. Have you considered, also, the effect of running a railroad through 
 a new and sparsely -peopled country, where the amount of business is 
 necessarily small ? 
 
 A. I do not think they ought to have any roads in those countries 
 where they are not able to support one unless Congress builds it, and 
 * the whole people are taxed to keep it up. I do not believe in encour- 
 agiDg these short lines ; I think they are a detriment to the people. 
 
 Q. Take the case of Iowa, which is comparatively a sparsely-settled 
 State, although it contains a million of people. It has three or four 
 railroads across the whole State, through a sparsely-peopled country, 
 and their local business is comparatively light, and the actual expense 
 of the roads now is fully equal to the income. What would you do in 
 'such a case as that f Have you considered the difficulty of applying a 
 general rule to railroads having vastly different support ? 
 
 A. I take this view of the railroad question generally, that routes, 
 will seek such localities as the interest of commerce and local trade will 
 warrant, and only such. I apprehend that those roads would not have 
 been built through Iowa unless the requirements of commerce made it 
 necessary. If they do not pay, that is a responsibility which falls upon 
 those who invest their capital. I do not think that the whole people 
 should be burdened simply because a few individuals, or a local interest, 
 should require roads passing through their States. 
 
 Q. Then let me come to another question : Suppose, taking the State 
 of Iowa, that the law of the State chartering the railroad company and 
 inviting capitalists to build the road iu the State has stipulated that 
 they should receive 5 cents a mile for passenger traffic, and has made 
 it a part of the charter. Have you considered that difficulty 1 
 
 A. It ought to be abrogated and wiped out. 
 
 Q. Have you ever considered the difficulty of abrogating it, under the 
 Constitution of the United States I 
 
 A; There are different views of that. We hold, and that position is 
 generally advocated by the farmers in the West, that all power rests 
 with the people, and that they can remodel all laws which are made to 
 affect them, and that the law of Congress that was passed in the interests 
 of the people, which comes in conflict with charters that have been 
 adopted even under the provision of the Constitution, would receive the 
 support of the people and be sanctioned by popular approval. 
 
 Q. I am not speaking of the law of Congress, but suppose the law' of 
 the State has prescribed a fixed rate and the Constitution of the United 
 States declares that.no State shall impair the obligation of a contract. 
 
 A. They must alter their law. I do not apprehend that the contracts 
 ought to be binding. 
 
 Q. The difficulty is, suppose that Congress should undertake to change 
 the law and the Supreme Court should declare it to be unconstitutional 
 under that provision ? 
 
676 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. Then do as they did in the Dred Scott decision. Wipe the 
 Supreme Court out and get one that would decide it. 
 
 Q. We are all in favor of cheap transportation, but we desire to see the 
 difficulties in the way of legislation. You would then reverse the 
 decision of the Supreme Court by the popular will ?. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I would not recommend of course any rule of law, or 
 application of any principle of law that would disregard the provisions 
 of the Constitution, not by any means. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. Then, how, as Mr. Sherman has asked, would you apply your 
 remedy. • 
 
 A. By remedying the Constitution. 
 
 Q. In the regular way? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; when it comes to that point. Mr. Sherman did not go as 
 far as that. He only went as far as the Supreme Court. He did not go. 
 to the Constitution of the United States. 
 
 Mr. Sherman. Oh, yes, I quoted the Constitution. 
 
 Mr. Tufts. Yes, sir ; the provision of the Constitution, exactly, but 
 when the Supreme Court made the decision it rendered the Constitution. 
 Some courts will render it in one way and some in another. The Su- 
 preme Court would render a decision in accordance, perhaps, with what 
 it belived to be the purport of that clause of the Constitution, but the 
 people might think that clause did not carry that purport out, and they 
 .would want a court which would decide it the other way. It it requires 
 a fundamental change of the general Constitution, that, of course, 
 should be submitted in the regular way to the people and they pass 
 upon it. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. In the event of its not being adopted by the requisite number of 
 States, would you consider that the Constitution must be obeyed at all 
 events ? 
 
 A. Oh, yes; otherwise the will of the people would not be the power 
 of the land. 
 
 Q. In regard to building new railroad routes, have you fixed upon 
 any route or any particular plan ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; our views in that regard have been that, so far as the 
 building of new roads or the opening of the present water courses, or 
 of new ones, due regard to the interests of the several sections of 
 the country should be taken into consideration. The tendency of the 
 discussion in our convention was, that, for instance, if the Niagara Ship 
 Canal was opened, there ought to be a central and a southern route 
 open. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. You are speaking of water-routes now? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and the same rule I apprehend ought to apply to open- 
 ing railroads. If, as is now thought by some to. be desirable, a double 
 track route should be built from the east to the west in the north, I 
 think that the south ought to have the same advantages in opening 
 water-routes, which would operate equally in that line as any other. The 
 view which we have taken has been that no section of the 'country 
 should be regarded specially for special appropriations for the opening 
 of routes to the inj ury of the other. The opening of the Welland Canal 
 has been spoken of, and also of the Niagara Canal. The sentiment of 
 our convention, 1 think, was decidedly opposed to this Saint Lawrence 
 route. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 677 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. That is not in our jurisdiction; we have nothing to do with it, 
 you are aware ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; but it was a matter which came before our convention. 
 
 The Chairman.: You mean you are opposed to the produce of the 
 country being compelled to go out that wayf 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Flagg. We had a representative from Canada at our convention. 
 The convention included a Canadian representative so that that scheme 
 was considered. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Have you considered what might be an injustice in applying the 
 Procrustean rule of passenger fare to all railroads in a case like this ? 
 Take a railroad that cost $20,000 a mile, and then take a railroad like 
 the Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad, which has cost, in some parts of it, 
 from $200,000 to $250,000 per mile, and that running through a wild and 
 sparsely-populated country with the very heaviest grades, I suppose, 
 of a.ny railroad in the country ; have you considered what might be an 
 injustice in applying a rule of that kind, and compelling that -road to 
 take 3 cents a mile and nothing more 1 
 
 A. Will not 3 cents a mile pay ? 
 
 Q. I should think if it would pay that road that half a cent a mile 
 would pay a road which cost only $20,000 a mile. 
 
 . A. Of course, it is, undoubtedly, true, that roads may be built over level 
 countries, where the natural obstructions are not great, and the realiza- 
 tion of profit at 3 cents a mile on the capital invested would be much 
 greater than on others, but that is a fortunate circumstance to the per- 
 sons interested in it. Some people can loan money at thirty per cent., 
 others only getting ten, but that is not the natural sequence. I base 
 my idea Of 3 cents a mile upon the impression that that is a sufficient 
 remuneration at the cost of the building of roads — the average cost of 
 building roads in this country. Fifty-five thousand dollars per mile is 
 whatMr. Poore puts it, in hismanual, as the average cost of construction. 
 A great many roads cost much less than that. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. I understand you that that- is enough for the most costly, and that 
 you will not compel the others to charge 3 cents a mile if they can 
 carry for less ? 
 
 A. 'Yes, sir ; that is it. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Then you assume that 3 cents would pay any road % 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think that 3 cents is sufficient. 
 
 Q. You would not want it applied in an instance, of course, where it 
 would starve the road T 
 
 A. I do not think ifc would do it. 
 
 Q. Well, of course, it is upon that assumption that you have fixed 3 
 cents as your maximum price, I suppose you think all roads could live 
 on that? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think they could live on that. We say 3 cents a mile. 
 Try it. You have to test these things. Of course we cannot say defi- 
 nitely that it will do. 
 
678 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. Let me see if I understand yon upon one point. You propose that 
 Congress shall limit the tariff of freight on railroads, do you not i 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; you say freights, we were talking about passenger rates. 
 
 Q. Well, sir ; passenger freights ; you propose that it shall limit the 
 tariff of passenger freights on railways ? 
 
 A. Fix a maximum rate. 
 
 Q. That is a limit ? 
 
 A. Ygs sir 
 
 Q." Do you state that proposition as applicable to all roads, or only to 
 some roads 1 
 
 A. As a general principle. 
 
 Q. Applicable to all roads ? 
 
 A. Applicable to all roads. 
 
 Q. Now, do you propose to leave the States any option as to regulat- 
 ing the passenger tariff on railroads ? 
 
 A. Beneath that, yes, sir ; below the 3 cents. 
 
 Q. Then you propose, practically/that Congress shall say that no com- 
 pany shall 'charge, and no State shall authorize a railway company to 
 charge more than 3 cents a mile for passengers 1 
 
 A. I do not want to make a proposition that Congress should pass 
 laws for individual States contrary to the provisions of the Constitu- 
 tion. 
 
 Q. No ; but understand me. You stated, if I apprehend you aright, 
 that your proposition was that Congress should say to all States, and 
 all railroads alike, that there must be a limit. 
 
 A. I refer, especially, to those roads that are recognized as inter-State, 
 over which Congress has the power to regulate. I do not think that 
 Congress has any right to say what shall be the rate of a road in Illi- 
 nois, although Congress might pass an inter-State law, fixing the limit at 
 3 cents. Yet that would not, perhaps, prohibit the State of Illinois from 
 saying that certain roads should carry for 5. 
 
 Q. Your proposition is, not that' Congress should limit the passenger 
 tariff upon all railroads, but only upon those roads which carry passen- 
 gers through one State to another 1 ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is my proposition. 
 
 Q. Take the case of railroads which carry passengers part of the way 
 through a State, and they go the rest of the way by water. Would that 
 railroad fall within your view 1 
 
 A. If it crossed States. 
 
 Q. Although it was all within a State, if a water-route ran in contin- 
 uation, that would not fall within it ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; that would not fall within it. 
 
 Q. . Then if the New York Central Eailroad carried a man from Buffalo 
 to New York, which would all be in the State of New York, your theory 
 would be that Congress could not regulate that 1 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. But if the New York Central Eailroad carried a man from Toledo 
 to New York, although it carried him over the same route, then Con- 
 gress could regulate it ? 
 
 A. There is another view of that question, which is taken by these 
 roads ; they have connections all the way through. For instance, I 
 want to travel from Saint Louis to New York ; I buy a ticket here and go 
 to New York. I may go through part of the way on one road, and part 
 on another. My rule would apply, that if I go here into a ticket office 
 to buy a ticket to New York the law must be, I must travel where they 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 679 
 
 propose to carry- me. They propose to carry me over a different nuin- 
 .ber of roads, and they should not charge.more than 3 cents. 
 
 Q. Then, if I understand you, starting to go from Saint Louis by the 
 New York Central, and I get on the same train at Buffalo, the com- 
 pany might charge anything the State authorized it to charge to me, 
 but could only charge to you the 3 cents 1 
 
 A. They would not charge me anything, because my contract was 
 here. The company that I contract with puts me through. 
 
 Q. That is a matter of ticket agency, but my proposition is this : You 
 mean that, in effect, this congressional law would subject me to the 
 whole discretion. of the company and the State, but that you would come 
 in under the congressional enactment, and be subject to only a maxi- 
 mum of 3 cents on that road ; that is your idea "? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, if you fix the maximum 3 cents, I will take the New York 
 Central Bailway again. The law of the State of New York requires 
 that they shall charge but 2 cents -to anybody. Would your theory, 
 then, be that, notwithstanding the law of New York, they could charge 
 you 3 cents? 
 
 A. Suppose that I buy a ticket here. Let me get at another feature 
 of that ; I buy a ticket here to go through, and I go over one of these 
 roads in New York where the law of New York requires them that they 
 shall not charge me over 2 cents. Do not the companies that run 
 those roads receive a proportion, exceeding two, of the amount that I 
 pay for my ticket from here to New York, passing jover that road ? 
 
 Q. That is not the question I put to you. Upon your own theory, 
 under such a law of Congress, would that company have a right to 
 receive as its share of that ticket, 3 cents a mile for the distance you 
 travel on its road, under such a congressional law as you propose, fixing 
 3 cents as the maximum ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I remarked before, the competition would regulate the 
 States inside of it. 
 
 Q. I discard competition ; I am talking about the law. So far as the 
 law is concerned in the case which I am putting, your theory is, that in 
 spite of the law of the State that road would be authorized to take its 
 proportion up to 3 cents 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is any year together, clear through. 
 
 Q. How would that be as to me, if I went on. in Buffalo to ride to 
 New York ; would they be confined, in your theory, by the State law, to 
 
 2 cents ? 
 
 A. They would be confined by the State law. 
 
 Q.' So that your idea is, that you would have two sets of regulations 
 applicable to those ? 
 A. Not by Congress. 
 Q. No, no ; hear me. The act of Congress would allow them to oharge 
 
 3 cents a mile to those coming from other States and passing through, 
 and the law of Congress would override the State statute in that respect, 
 but as to the man who travelled in the State of New York he would be 
 governed by the State statute and they could only charge him 2 cents 
 a mile ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think that would be advisable or desirable 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think where the rates in the States, as in New York, 
 were 2 cents, the tendency would bring it down through the whole 
 length to 2 cents. 
 
 Q. Although Congress may have said that they might charge 3 1 
 
680 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A "Vps sir 
 
 Q.' You spoke of Mr. Poorefe average of $55,000 per mile of the' cost 
 of road. You are aware that that average is made up of roads wnicn 
 cost twice that amount, as well as those which cost half the amount, are 
 
 y °A. When you say that roads cost twice that amount, I should doubt 
 
 *Q. I speak now of Mr. Poore's own table. Does not Mr. Poore's table 
 show that that averge is arrived at by including roads which cost twice 
 $55,000 per mile for the whole, or a part of their route, as well as roads 
 that cost only twenty-two or twenty-three thousand dollars a mile? 
 
 A. I understand his average to be to include roads which cost more 
 than that, as well as those that cost less. 
 
 Q. Do you not know that the cost of roads which he includes in his 
 table go up to $100,000 per mile for the whole or a part of their route? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You have no information on that subject? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. But your theory is, that, discarding discrepancies of cost, they 
 should all come to one rate, and that, as matter of fact, you say 3 cents 
 is enough for the highest, and that they can live on that f . 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Those that are below that, that is their good luck, and that is all 
 there is about it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. You say you would not make this rule applicable where roads begin 
 and terminate within the borders of the State ? 
 
 A. I do not think that Congress has any right about that. 
 
 Q. Suppose Congress passes this law which you speak of, and the rail- 
 roads, the most of which are within the borders of a single. State, should 
 resolve tbat they would sell no more through-tickets, and you start on 
 a railroad in Illinois that ends in Illinois, and they charge you for pass- 
 ing over that road and drop you at the end of the route, you being on 
 your way to New York, how would you regulate that difficulty ? 
 
 A. In case the State passed a law that their roads should not sell any 
 through-tickets '? 
 
 Q. Take the case of Iowa, "where they are allowed to charge 5 cents a 
 mile. 
 
 A. Perhaps I do not understand your proposition. Was it that the 
 legislature of the State sbould pass a. law ? 
 
 Q. I say breaking up all these through-routes, all ticket agencies, &c, 
 and every road standing upon its own merits, then take the case of a 
 railroad beginning and terminating within a State, when you want to go 
 to New York, which will sell you a ticket over that road. When you 
 get to the end of that road your ticket is out, and you have to buy 
 another ticket to, go over the next road, through another State, and so 
 on until you get through. Now, when the railroads agree to break up 
 all their through-connections in this way, how would you reach that dif- 
 ficulty ? 
 
 A. I don't think that that is a supposable case. The requirements of. 
 commerce, I think, would prevent any such method of transportation 
 as that. 
 
 Q. Do you not think they would do it if they desired to protect them- 
 selves ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 681 
 
 A. They might attempt to do it. 
 
 Q. But could they not do it ? 
 
 A. I do not think they could accomplish it. 
 
 Q. Could they not do it ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir, upon this principle, that money is a sufficient power to 
 do anything ; if they could buy up the legislature of the States and re- 
 quire them to pass laws in their interest to that, extent that would allow 
 them to ticket only through a State, and not through another; but 1 ap- 
 prehend that this law of Congress would come right in there as a check. 
 
 By Mr. ConexinG: 
 Q. And compel them to sell tickets ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Korwood : 
 
 Q. But, by the 1 aws of the States, many of these roads in their chart- 
 ers have the right to charge so much. Now, these contracts cannot be 
 abrogated, you say, by any State 1 
 
 A. They may not be abrogated by any State, although I do not believe 
 in the inviolability of contracts or charters of railroad companies. 
 
 Q. If these roads disjoint themselves how would you regulate it by an 
 act of Congress ? 
 
 A. I think that an extraordinary case, like that, would require extra- 
 ordinary power. 
 
 By Mr. ConklinG: 
 
 Q. What power would you invoke ? 
 
 A. The power of Congress ; the requirements of commerce, because 
 .that would interest the people at large in every State. They would be- 
 come at once interested in a transaction of that kind and Congress must 
 come in then and regulate it by law. 
 
 Continuation of. the examination of Mr. Flagg : 
 
 Mr. Flagg. Senator Sherman was asking in reference to 3 cents per 
 mile as a practicable charge. I wish to make a statement in that con- 
 nection as bearing upon this question. It does not answer the question 
 directly, but it was suggested to me and I wish to lay it before the com- ' 
 mittee. 
 
 There is a little road in our State, finished in 1872, and called the 
 Paris and Decatur road, crossing the Illinois Central at Areola. The 
 engineer of that road, who is also its superintendent, told me that he 
 persuaded the management of the road, at its starting, to put their pas- 
 senger rates at 3 cents a mile, from the very beginning, on a road oniy 
 partially finished, or when it was finished about thirty miles, I think, 
 and at the same time the Illinois Central road, which crosses at that point, 
 was charging nearly 4 cents a mile. He told me that the result was that they 
 filled up their cars while the Illinois Central, as I personally know, was 
 running trains half empty through the same country at the same time ; 
 that is, I suppose, in that particular case, and I believe it would be 
 generally the case, except in'quite sparsely-settled portions of the country, 
 that the putting down of the rate increases the receipts. I suppose you 
 have had that- information urged upon you before, but I do not think 
 our railroad men, as a rule, have had the nerve to try it. Our railroad 
 superintendents are old and but short- tenured ; they are living from 
 hand to mouth, as it were; that is, the good management of the one 
 year counts on their election of the next, and they are afraid, I think, 
 to make the experiment. 
 
(382 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 • By the Chairman : ' 
 
 Q. That has been the effect in the thickly-populated countries of 
 Europe 2 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; there is hardly any limit to it there, where they have a 
 very dense population. 
 
 Q. Is not one of the chief complaints against the railroads their dis- 
 crimination in respect to local points'? 
 
 A. I think that causes the irritation more than anything else ; that 
 is the feeling of relative injustice. The fact that' I am charged more 
 than you are would very often make me more angry than if I was over- 
 charged simply. 
 
 Q. We had" a statement from some railroad man in Chicago that 
 there were only four roads in Illinois which were paying any dividends 
 at all, and a fifth that paid spasmodically, and the rest paying no divi- 
 dends whatever ; what do you say about that ? , 
 
 A. I have seen the statement; it was published in theNewYork Herald 
 and in the Chicago Tribune. I think I have it at home. What I will have 
 to say about that would be simply this, that that is not reallythe question. 
 The question is, whether they have paid dividends without having used 
 due economy in their management. I can give you other facts. The 
 Peoria and Jacksonville road of our State, not ninety miles long, pays 
 its president, whose residence is put down at Saybrook, Conn., $10,000 
 a year for his services. The question arises, in the minds of the 
 uninitiated, what does he do for his money? We find one road in 
 Chicago — I think it is the Northwestern, a well-managed road, so far as 
 I know — paying its general superintendent $15,000 per annum, whilst 
 the superintendent of the Chicago, Burlington and Quincey road, whom, 
 so far as I know, is a very good railroad manager, receives $10,000. • 
 That is, we think we detect traces, in the first place, of exorbitant salaries 
 paid to certain officials. The question naturally arises, whether that is 
 not true in the whole management of the road, and whether they are 
 worked expensively ; we think we know that. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Are not those exceptional cases ? 
 
 A. No, sir; I think myself the exceptional cases are the other way; that 
 there are a few roads that are what you might call well managed, so far 
 as our western roads go. I do not think they have been run long 
 enough to get experts in all of them. They are generally taken up by 
 men who have turned their hands from something else to this. They 
 have not had sufficient experience, I think, even if they had the ability, 
 as some of them have not in my opinion. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Tou think that the people are looking more to the regulation of 
 railroads and cheaper water lines for relief? 
 
 A. That is the feeling in Illinois. I do not know that it is in the 
 Northwest generally, but that there is a strong tendency to follow that. 
 The question is how to regulate. I considered that subject pretty ex- 
 tensively in an address that is in the report of the convention which I 
 have laid before your committee. I am driven to the conclusion, per- 
 sonally, that we shall have to have Government lines of railway in order 
 to get competition. The point is made by Mr. Hill, in the report of the 
 Social Science meeting of Great Britain, for 1873, that, in order to insure 
 competition, we have got to. have government railroads to compete with 
 the private roads. All other means have failed in England. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 683 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. He bases that upon the experience of the Germans in Belgium. 
 
 A. He bases it upon the experience in England, in the first place, and 
 in the next, on the Belgium experience, where 42 per cent, of the roads 
 are in government hands. They have there held the private roads down 
 to whatever rates the government saw fit to run at, or near to that, and 
 paid 6 per cent, interest on the government investment. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Did I understand it to be your opinion that the Government ought 
 to build railroads leading from the East to the "West, or elsewhere? 
 
 A. I am driven to the conclusion that they will have to, and that the 
 water routes will not be permanent enough, or quick enough to afford 
 all the relief sought for. I think we want water routes. I think that 
 •it is the feeling of our people that we want water routes, but rather as 
 a means of temporary relief than as a means of permanent- relief. 
 
 Q. Have you considered any particular route of where to start or 
 where to land ? 
 
 A. In regard to railroads ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. 
 
 A. I have, generally. 
 
 Q. What was it ? 
 
 A. I have developed that in the address I speak of. My point would 
 be to connect the principal places of business in the West — the centers 
 of business, in the first place, with the best seaports on the Atlantic by 
 East and West roads, making about four roads ; one you may say would 
 go from Omaha to Boston and New York, touching, as far as practicable, 
 the principal points between Chicago, and, perhaps, Toledo, Cleveland 
 and Buffalo. Drawing another one from these points, or rather from 
 Lawrence to Baltimore, probably ; another through Memphis, endeavor- 
 ing to hit Norfolk, or thereabouts, and another one still from Vicksburgh 
 to a point West, striking at Port Boyal Harbor or Charleston. Then 
 I would turn the thing about and would draw a line parallel with tho 
 coast from Portland through New York, Baltimore, Washington, &c, 
 striking at Pensacola, which, I think, is.the best harbor on the gulf. 1 
 would have another from Cleveland, the lowest point on the lake, run- 
 ning through Cincinnati and striking at New Orleans; and another 
 still from Chicago to the lowest point on the lake there, striking through 
 these points, going down through Little Bock and striking at Galves- 
 . ton. Ultimately it might require one from the end of Lake Superior, 
 parallel with that again, striking down at Brownsville: I have looked 
 to something like that, having those roads owned by the States through 
 which they pass, having the stock furnished by those States, and letting 
 that stock draw the interest, Government guaranteeing the interest. 
 That would embrace twenty-five States, passing through that number. 
 Those seven roads comprise eight thousand miles of road in a straight 
 line. 
 
 Q. Are they to be double-track roads t 
 
 A. I had not got that far, but the point, I suppose, is freight-roads. 
 
 Q. Freight-roads exclusively ? 
 
 A. That is what we need ; I do not know that we are particularly op- 
 pressed by passenger traffic. 
 
 Q. Have you estimated the cost of those roads, ox given any thought 
 in that direction f 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Be kind enough to give us the result of your investigations.. 
 
684 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. ■' 
 
 A. I will give you the result of my investigations, or rather th« facts 
 I found out, first. I have a letter from the chief engineer of a road 
 which was built in Indiana through Ohio in 1851. He states to me 
 that the actual figures in that case, counting iron one hundred and two 
 tons, I think, to the mile, being T-iron, were $10,700 to the'mile, as the 
 cost of the road. I am driven to the conclusion that a good many of our 
 roads have been very much overestimated. 
 
 • By the Chairman : 
 Q. That is without rolling-stock ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Is that for the iron, or for the road? 
 
 A. That is for the grading, the tieing, and putting down the rails. It 
 was a hundred and two tons to the mile, as I understand, and T-rail.' 
 It is a little heavier, as I understand it, than the iron ordinarily used, 
 but I am not positive about that. I am not a railroad-man. 
 
 Q. Was that hundred and two tons for a single-track road? 
 
 A. A single-track road. 
 
 Q. What was that estimated at per ton upon, the ground 1 ? 
 
 A. Do you mean the value of the iron? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. 
 
 A. That was $48. 
 
 Q. Have you ever known any iron to be bought at $48 ? 
 
 A. I understood the same gentleman that iron which came the near- 
 est corresponding to it, except that I think it was a steel or a partially 
 steel rail, was at that time quoted in New York at $98 — more than double 
 that amount. 
 
 Q. That would double your price of the road, then, would it not? 
 
 A. No, sir ; it would double the price of the iron, but not of the ties. 
 The ties could be got at about the same price now, and I do not know 
 that the grading would cost more than now ; but so far as the iron is 
 concerned, it would a little more than double the cost at present. 
 
 Q. Have you ever known a road to be built at the figures you have 
 given us ? . • 
 
 'A. This one, I say, was built in Indiana in 1851. I think a portion of 
 it was in Ohio. 
 
 Q. You do not recollect the size of the iron used in that road, do you ? 
 
 A. Only the weight, which was' one hundred and two tons to the mile. 
 My conclusion from that is, that we could build a road now a good deal 
 cheaper than what is popularly supposed, if the thing was brought 
 down to business. That would make a hundred and sixty millions of 
 dollars simply for the construction of a single-track road, and three 
 hundred and twenty millions if you made a double-track. 
 
 Q. You estimate, then, that such a road as you have described, in 
 different directions, could be built at $20,000 a mile, single track ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. In fact, if I were the Government I should not build 
 all of it; I should condemn a portion of it. I should try the practice 
 of condemning a portion of it. 
 
 Q. Do you mean the lands ? 
 
 A. No, sir; taking existing roads — endeavoring to purchase them, if 
 I could, or condemning tbem if I was obliged to. 
 
 Q. Would you pay for them if you condemned them ? 
 
 A. That I understand to be included in the idea of condemning. 
 
 Q. Have you considered how the roads were to be managed; how 
 would you manage them 1 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 685 
 
 A. .1 have not considered this to the point of going into operation. I 
 simply bring up this fact, that the management of the Erie Canal, for 
 instance, which, as I understand, has not been immaculate by any means, 
 has yet been decidedly better than the Erie Eoad, and has been attend- 
 ed with less corruption, both public and private. I think the same is 
 true of our Michigan Canal,, in the State of Illinois. While it has not 
 been managed in the best way, it has been managed for the public in- 
 terest more than any railroad in the State. I am willing to compare 
 the management of the post-office system, with all its fluctuations and 
 appointments for political reasons — I am willing to put that against the 
 management of our express and telegraph companies. I say, I think if 
 the Government were put in charge of a matter of this kind, and had a 
 long time to run it, that it would eventually get it into shape' so that it 
 would be reasonably well managed for the public interest. 
 
 Q. Then I understand you have not thought of the details of the 
 management. You just compare it with other things managed like 
 railroads ? 
 
 A. O, no, sir ; ' I have not been expecting to take a contract to run 
 it, and have simply considered it an escape from the existing abuses, 
 which I know are very great. 
 
 Q. Have you estimated what it would cost to transport freight per ton 
 per mile % I mean the estimate of the actual maximum cost. 
 
 A. No, sir; I have never estimated that. I have no information or 
 experience that would enable me to do it; I have simply taken the facts 
 that I have got from other sources — from those whom I supposed under- 
 stood what they were talking about. 
 
 The statement was made in the Chicago Tribune, and, I believe, sub- 
 stantiated, that a leading railway official of Chicago said.that he could 
 transport grain from Chicago to New York at 8 cents a bushel. That 
 was last spring. He said that it was possible to do it at that rate. I 
 suppose that meant exclusively a freight-railroad. I saw no facts con- 
 nected with it, except that it was given as the opinion of a railway 
 official. 
 
 Q. Do you agree with that yourself? 
 
 A. I should not consider my 'opinion in that regard as worth any- 
 thing, but I think it could be done. The reason I think so is, that the 
 facts given to us show that coal has been transported at one-third of a 
 cent per ton per mile. 
 
 Q. In this country ? 
 
 A. No, sir; in England. That is about one-quarter of what they are 
 charging from here to the sea-board. That is, instead of its being car- 
 ried for 39 cents, as it now is from Saint Louis, or 33 cents from East 
 Saint Louis, it ought to be carried for eight and a fraction from East 
 Saint Louis on these terms. Seems to me that it could be done with 
 freight-roads. 
 
 Q. Have you considered from whence the authority. would come to 
 build the roads of which you speak % 
 
 A. Yes, sir. There, again, however, I would not think my opinion 
 worth much. I speak only as a layman. I suppose, however, that the 
 authority which was used to build and extend the Cumberland .Eoad 
 might be stretched far enough to build railroads. 
 
 By Mr. Conbxing : 
 Q. I wish to see if I understand you. Have you, yourself, estimated 
 or tried to estimate the cost of these roads of which you are speaking ? 
 A. No, sir ; I have not got that to nearly a practical point. 
 
686 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 I will state in that connection, if you will allow me, that we expect 
 on behalf of our cheap transportation company, which was organized in 
 New York in May last, of which Mr. Quincy, of Boston, was elected 
 president, to be in Washington probably in January, and that that por- 
 tion of us who believe in the feasibility of rail-routes, as against any- 
 thing else, expect to get our ideas together and form a bill. By that 
 time I hope we shall have more practical information in reference to it. 
 
 Q. This general statement, then, which you mate, of $20,000 a mile, 
 is confined to the iron in the construction of the road f 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I am simply speaking of the road. I am not speaking 
 of the station-houses, freight-houses, water-tanks, rolling-stock, and a 
 great many other things. 
 
 Q. Nor of right of way ? 
 
 A. Nor of right of way. 
 
 Q. Nor facilities for handling freight, such as elevators, and all that 
 sort of thing, where they would be necessary ? 
 
 A. No, sir. I included those, however, when I spoke of necessary 
 freight-houses, &c. 
 
 Q. You simply speak of the naked road, and the iron to make a 
 single-track road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you considered by what processes it was to be built : whether 
 by letting it out upon contract, or of its being superintended by agents 
 of the Government 1 
 
 A. No, sir. There was a little hint on that in to-day's Eepublican, I 
 think. I think it was a statement made by an engineer down here, im- 
 proving the Tennessee or Cumberland River, that he had been working 
 men by the day much more successfully and profitably than he had been 
 by letting to contractors. That suggests that perhaps our contracting- 
 system is not always the best. But the point, as 1 look at it — and I am 
 giving my personal views now, having given before the opinion of the 
 farmers of the West— is this : Taking our southern water-routes, they 
 are coming, I think, to be more or less subject to a drought, which will 
 make it impracticable to use them at certain seasons of the year. The 
 railroads will beat them in the dry season. During the winter season 
 the northern route is to be closed from five to six months ; so that, I 
 think, taking the year round, the railroad will beat anything that there 
 is going. 1 think they are actually crowding the water- business of the 
 country, and I think that with freight-routes they will more than 
 do so. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Have you estimated the difference in the cost of transportation 
 by water and rail ; have you given that some thought 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is your conclusion ? 
 
 A. My conclusion is that it might be done by water a good deal the 
 cheapest. For instance, there was a statement in the Democrat here, 
 this past summer, of a run of coal from Pittsburgh through to New 
 Orleans, if I remember rightly, which is figured at but one-tenth of a 
 mill per ton per mile. I do not know of any railroad-transportation 
 that comes nearly that low, yet there is the fact that the rates from 
 here to Memphis are about the same by water and by rail. That is the 
 practical fact. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 687 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Was that water-transportation at the rate of one-tenth of a mill 
 per ton per mile ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I say I have never known of any rail-transportation 
 that came near that. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Now as to the cost of the road of which you have heretofore 
 spoken, I understand you to say that eighty millions was your estimate 
 for eight thousand miles ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I think- 1 said a hundred and sixty millions, or just double 
 that. . 
 
 Q. That is for a single track alone, without equipments in any way, 
 without locomotives, cars, out-buildings, or anything of that kind"? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I approached that, by the way, from the other point ; 
 that is, I considered how much we were losing here. Taking the two . 
 cities of Chicago and Saint Louis, as I figured it in 1872, those two cities, 
 of themselves, shipped the equivalent of one hundred millions of bush- 
 els of grain. I reduced the flour to grain in making that calculation. 
 My estimate was that there were at least two hundred millions of bush- 
 els of grain went out here from the Northwest for 1872, taking the cities 
 of Milwaukee, Toledo, and so on, which had also shipped great quanti- 
 ties by rail. My own estimate is, that on most of that transportation, 
 and I do not know but I would say on all of it, there has been a loss, if 
 I may call it so, or an overcharge, compared with what it might have 
 been done for, of somewhere in the region of 20 cents a bushel. Now 
 that means a good many millions of dollars, which is lost in this country 
 to the producers of the Northwest. I suppose that in a year of great 
 production we are the losers, and about the only losers. When the pro- 
 duction is moderate, it is divided between the producer and the con- 
 sumer. When the production is very low, the consumer must pay the 
 transportation. I think that is nearly the case. 
 
 Q. If your roads were double-track it would cost double as much as 
 you estimate, and, instead of a hundred and sixty millions of dollars, 
 the cost would be three hundred and twenty millions ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the equipment would yet have to come. However, the fact 
 
 I wish to arrive at is this : Do you think a single-track road belonging 
 
 to the Government, and managed by the Government, could success- 
 
 • fully compete against a double-track road in the hands of individuals? 
 
 A. That is my impression. As was stated by Mr. Adams, before the 
 Massachusetts legislative committee on railroads, the individual will 
 not be satisfied with less than 10 per cent, interest ; the Government 
 will be content with 5 or 6 per cent. There, at once, is quite a differ- 
 ence. I should hold, myself, that our investors in railroads ought to 
 be content with 5 per cent. It is a large investment of great sums, and 
 5 or 6 per cent, interest might be almost or very safely guaranteed. 
 
 Q. Your idea was that the Government could issue bonds for the 
 building of the road at 5 or 6 per cent. ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. My own figuring, in the first place, on that was this : 
 I went a good deal higher than we are speaking of; I went up to four 
 hundred millions. I figured it that we could very well pay the interest 
 here in our State of Illinois, and I think most of these Northwestern 
 States, on our portion of the road, simply out of what we would save 
 upon our grain alone. 
 
 Q. You would prefer those railroads to water-routes ? 
 
688 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; in consideration of the facts I 'speak of, that I think the 
 railroads will take the business. They are a quicker route, and you 
 can turn your money faster and get your returns quicker. I would not 
 wish to be understood as saying anything against the water-routes; we 
 need those, and need those at once. 
 
 Adjourned to 10 a.-m. to-morrow. 
 
 Saint Louis, Mo., October 31, 1873. 
 
 Committee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to adjournment. 
 
 Examination of B. E. Bonner. 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Question. Have you had any connection with the transportation on 
 the river ? 
 
 Answer. Not personally ; no, sir. I have not been engaged in the 
 business. 
 
 Q. Have you a knowledge of that business on the river ? 
 
 A. Somewhat. 
 
 Q. You are a merchant, I believe ? - 
 
 A. Yes, sir; I have been for a number of years. 
 
 Q. Will you state to the committee any information you may have in 
 reference to the management of those lines and the cause for the high 
 charges on the' river at certain times ? Any information upon that gen- 
 eral subject, which you may be able to give us, I should be glad to 
 have. 
 
 A. Well, sir, I don't claim to be officially informed on the subject. I 
 think there are several reasons, however, for high rates of transportation 
 on the Mississippi Biver and its tributaries. I think the chief reason is 
 the obstruction to the navigation of the river — the upper-river obstruc- 
 tions at Bock Island and at Keokuk. I understand, however, that the 
 obstructions at Bock Island are very nearly overcome ; but the obstruc- 
 tions at Bock Island certainly add very largely to the cost of transpor- 
 tation from the Upper Mississippi Biver to Saint Louis. 
 
 By Mr. SHERMAN : 
 Q. The obstructions at Keokuk ? 
 A. Yes, sir ; they add very largely! 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Q. Where do you dividethe river when you say " upper" and " lower?" 
 
 A. Prom Saint Louis northward and from Saint Louis southward we 
 usually call it the " Upper Mississippi" and " Lower Mississippi." Those 
 are common expressions here. 
 
 Q. I understood that, but I didn't know whether it was Cairo or 
 where it was. . 
 
 A. Well, sir, it divides here, in the common understanding. Then be- 
 tween Saint Louis and Cairo there are a great many obstructions. There 
 are a great many sunken boats and a great many snags in the river, 
 and at seasons of the year there is a great want of water on account of 
 a few sand-bars. I understand there are only a few. Those, we sup- 
 pose here, might be removed at a very small expense on the part of the 
 Government, by the construction of wing-dams, or such other means as 
 would cause the water to remain in the same channel, thus washing out 
 the sands. We have thought, for a number of years, that if that was 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 689 
 
 done here it would give us a sufficient depth of water from here to 
 Cairo. There is no want of water from Cairo to New Orleans, as I un- 
 derstand it, but the obstruction at the mouth of the river is perhaps the 
 greatest difficulty in the way of our exportations of the cereals of the 
 Mississippi Valley. 
 
 There is want of ocean-tonnage at New Orleans, and the cause of that 
 is probably the difficulty of getting over the bars regularly and meeting 
 the cereals that would go down the river to New Orleans. Vessels fre- 
 quently lie outside of the bars there for weeks at a time, as I am in- 
 formed, so that shippers of the cereals from the 'Northwest cannot rely 
 with any certainty upon getting ocean-transportation. That, perhaps, 
 is the great difficulty in the way of moving the surplus cereals of this 
 valley to the foreign markets of the world. I think if steamers could 
 leave New Orleans with the same regularity that they do the port of 
 New York, there would be an abundance of grain there at all seasons 
 of the year to give them tonnage. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do you understand competition to be free on the river, or do these 
 boats run in combination ? 
 
 A. I do not think it is as free as it used to be under the old system. I 
 think that the transportation of the Mississippi Eiver is rather in a 
 transition state at present. Formerly it was carried on in boats adapted 
 to freight and passenger transportation both. It was a combination of 
 both. The boats were owned by a great many persons, which afforded 
 very sharp competition, and for that reason the rates were perhaps very 
 low ; but that system of transportation has become too expensive in 
 competition with railroads and the other modes of transportation now 
 in vogue, so that those boats have been pretty much entirely abandoned, 
 and the carrying is now being done chiefly by barges. That is of late 
 date, however, and there are but one or two barge companies doing 
 business on the river, so that the transportation of the river may be 
 considered somewhat in the hands of a very few persons, and may 
 assume to some extent the phase of a monopoly. I think that with the 
 obstructions removed from the river— at the mouth of the river, espe- 
 cially — so that there would be a certainty of getting ocean-transporta- 
 tion, that capital would very speedily place other barge-lines on the 
 river; but, with the present uncertainty of foreign tonnage, there is 
 very little inducement for capitalists to put even other barge-lines on 
 the river. It frequently occurs that commission-merchants and shippers 
 at New Orleans have to telegraph to Saint Louis not to send down any 
 more grain, for the reason that there is not ocean-tonnage there to take 
 it away. Now, if the mouth could be so cleared that ocean-tonnage 
 could come in there with regularity, then there would be bajge-lines in 
 competition that would take the cereals of the Northwest and of this 
 whole valley down there ; but with that difficulty in the way there is 
 little or no inducement for capitalists to invest in even barge-lines. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. What is the necessity of having any combination with lines of 
 barges and tugs ? 
 A. I don't think there is any necessity for combinations at all. 
 Q. What is the effect of those combinations when made? 
 A. The effect of combinations always is to advance prices, whether 
 on water or land. 
 Q. Is there anything in the commerce of the Mississippi that would 
 44 T s jh 
 
690 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 prevent the habit in other ports of each vessel having a separate owner- 
 ship—each tug having a separate ownership and tugging other vessels 
 belonging to individuals, the tugs being owned by one person, the 
 barges by others, or the whole raft being owned by one person ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there anything in the commerce of the Mississippi that would 
 make it necessary to form a line to leave at particular days and par- 
 ticular times ? 
 
 A. Well, I think not, sir. Perhaps the scarcity of outward-bound 
 freight makes it necessary to some exteut for boats taking out tows of 
 barges to leave on certain days in order to secure loads, but if there was 
 an abundance of outward tonnage, I think there would be ample busi- 
 ness to afford competition for a large number of persons to engage in the 
 transportation on the river. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with the transportation from Chicago to Buffalo? 
 
 A. No, sir ; not specially so. I understand that it varies there very 
 considerably, ranging from 6 to 15 cents. I am not very familiar, how- 
 ever, with transportation from Chicago to Buffalo. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. I would like to know what is the precise difficulty in respect of 
 the lack of ocean-tonnage at New Orleans. I do not now mean the diffi- 
 culty growing out of obstructions in the river, but the local difficulty 
 there. 
 
 A. I suppose that there is a great want of capital there to invest in 
 ocean-tonnage. You are aware of the disturbed condition of matters at 
 New Orleans, and the depressed condition of trade there ever since the 
 close of the war. The capital of New Orleans operators is no doubt 
 very greatly reduced, and I do not think they have the means to put on 
 ocean lines. 
 
 Q. What is the difficulty about these lines being established by capital 
 coming from elsewhere ? 
 
 A. There is no reason why it should not be done, except the difficulty 
 of getting an abundance of freight from the upper river. 
 
 Q. What causes that difficulty? 
 
 A. The cause of that difficulty is the want of ocean-transportation. 
 
 Q. Let me see if I understand you. You say that the difficulty in es- 
 tablishing lines of ocean-steamers is the lack of freight ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that the lack of freight arises from the want of ocean-steam- 
 ers? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. Perhaps the principal difficulty in the way is the ob- 
 struction at the mouth of the river. Steamers cannot come in with per- 
 fect regularity so that shippers of grain can always rely upon trans- 
 portation from New Orleans. 
 
 Q. In other words, if I understand you, people on the Upper and 
 Lower Mississippi cannot rely upon making connection with ocean-going 
 vessels ? 
 
 A. They cannot. 
 
 Q. Suppose warehouses of adequate capacity were erected at New 
 Orleans, wouldn t they obviate all the difficulty ? 
 
 A. Not entirely. 
 
 Q. Why not? 
 
 A. It is not best for grain to remain very long at New Orleans with- 
 out shipment. 
 
 Q. For what reason ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. ' 691 
 
 A. On account of the warm weather — the climate. 
 
 Q. That climate is against it ? 
 
 A. Tes ; that is one objection. And then persons engaged in the ex- 
 portation of breadstuff's, cereals, do not care to have their stuff stop at 
 New Orleans for an indefinite time. If it lies there for one week for 
 want of transportation it may lie there a month. Persons shipping 
 abroad generally want to draw against their shipments, and they want 
 to have some degree of certainty that their shipments will go forward. 
 
 Q. Draw on whom against their shipments'? 
 
 A. They may draw on Liverpool. If they ship direct to Liverpool, 
 they make shipment and make drafts against the Liverpool house. 
 
 Q. Cannot that be clone by a warehousing system 1 
 
 A. It might be done, yet they would have to make much longer-time 
 bills if the grain had to remain in warehouse at New Orleans for thirty, 
 sixty, or ninety days. It is very expensive. They cannot negotiate their 
 bills with the same facility. 
 
 Q. They could negotiate their bills better than they could if it re- 
 mains those thirty, sixty, or ninety days in warehouse at Dubuque or 
 Burlington, couldn't they? 
 
 A. In a warehouse at Burlington they could not negotiate bills at all. 
 They would not draw. 
 
 Q. Therefore, the nearer you get to sea and the nearer to Liverpool 
 the more easily you can negotiate ? 
 
 A. Certainly ; I regard that as a very serious obstacle in the way; and 
 another is, that it is not best for grain to remain, as I say, very long at 
 New Orleans. 
 
 Q. How long can corn remain in bulk, stored in New Orleans with 
 safety ? 
 
 A. That is owing a good deal to the condition of the corn. If it is 
 very dry it remains longer, and if it is not so well cured it will not stand 
 it so long. 
 
 Q. Suppose it is in the best condition, how long would it remain 1 
 
 A. I am not prepared to give you an intelligent answer on that ques- 
 tion, not being a shipper myself. 
 
 Q. But you think it is hazardous to keep it there ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; there is no doubt about that. If they can get transpor- 
 tation within a few days at New Orleans, grain goes through by that 
 route to Liverpool with as much safety as though it passed from Mon- 
 treal. There is no doubt about that, because the experience of our Saint 
 Louis merchants who ship is to that effect. 
 
 Q. And it is upon their experience that you rely in making that state- 
 ment 1 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. You say that the want of the establishment of ocean-lines grows 
 out of the want of water-freight on the river, and that grows out of the 
 lack of ocean facilities. As between those two effects which do you con- 
 sider the cause and which do you consider the effect ? There must be 
 some relation of that sort between them. Now does the destitution of 
 freight down the river cause the lack of ocean-going facilities, or does 
 the lack of ocean-going facilities cause the famine of freight on the 
 river ? 
 
 A. Well, sir, I think it is an aggregate of these facts, all growing, or 
 chiefly, out of the difficulties of getting in and out of the river. 
 
 Q. Won't you speak of these difficulties precisely 1 I don't quite un- 
 derstand tHem. 
 
 A. The chief difficulty is the bars at the mouth of the river, which 
 
692 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 hinder and delay steamers outside. I understand that very frequently 
 steamers lie outside, and in all cases they have to be towed in. The 
 expense of towage there is very great. The expense of getting in and 
 getting out is very great. I understand there is somewhat of a monopoly 
 in the way of towing at the mouth of the river. When a vessel comes it 
 has to lie outside of the bar until persons in charge of the tow-boats ■ 
 are ready to go and bring it in. I understand that frequently almost 
 fleets lie outside there waiting their turn. 
 
 Q. Speaking now of the difficulty of getting in for want of water— 
 during what months is that *? 
 
 A. I think that the spring season, perhaps, affords the greatest diffi- 
 culty. I don't speak with accuracy on that point. But the fact that 
 there are obstructions there at all is a great hinderance to capitalists 
 putting on regular lines of steamers. 
 
 Q. Do you know any month in the year when a sea-going vessel can- 
 not be towed in 1? I do not mean an exceptional case, but year by year. 
 
 A. I don't know that I do, sir. 
 
 Q. And the cost of towage there ? 
 
 A. But there is great delay. 
 
 Q. And that arises, as you say, from a monopoly of towing and a 
 want of tug facilities ? 
 
 A. Well, partially so. 
 
 Q. Is there any way by which you can construct an artificial channel, 
 that you know of, which will not still necessitate the employment of 
 tugs to convoy sea-going vessels to and fro 1 
 
 A We have thought that if the Fort Saint Philip Canal was con- 
 structed that would obviate the difficulty. 
 
 Q. That vessels could go by their own motive-power ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; we have thought so. Of course that is a subject which 
 you will investigate at New Orleans. We think that would probably 
 afford the best outlet. I wish to correct myself in relation to the 
 steamers being towed over the bars. Small steamers are able to come 
 over themselves, and it is the sailing-vessels chiefly that have to be 
 towed over, and steamers of the largest tonnage. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. They have to have local pilots, do they not ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. I understood you to say, sir, that regular sea-going vessels are not 
 small vessels ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the small vessels that come in require nothing but pilots, and 
 the larger vessels require convoys ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you speak now of the sailing-vessels and large steamers also 
 when you say that they can move themselves through the proposed 
 canal ? 
 
 A. Well, sir, I don't know whether they will have to be towed up or 
 not. 
 
 Q. I take it the sailing-vessels would have to be towed up ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; but the others, I presume, would not. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 Q. I understand you to say that the reason why there'is not more 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 693 
 
 freight going down the Mississippi is because there are obstructions at 
 the mouth of the river ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that that is the cause of there not being more facilities for 
 transportation, and consequently more freight to be transported ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. Does not that cause operate just as it would upon any water-com- 
 munication where there were obstructions in the way ? 
 
 A. I know of no other water-communication where the same ob- 
 structions exist. 
 
 Q. I don't mean that. Would not a like cause produce a like effect 
 upon any water-communication ? 
 
 A. I should think it would, sir. 
 
 Q. To illustrate, suppose that upon the Erie Canal there was a want 
 of lockage by which only a fourth of the vessels could pass compared 
 with those that can pass now, or even one-tenth, don't you think that 
 the lack of freight would occur in" that case just as it does on the Mis- 
 sissippi River or upon any other water-communication 1 
 
 A. To some extent. 
 
 Q. In other words, anything that is an obstruction to commerce will 
 obstruct transportation. 
 
 A. I should think so, sir. 
 
 Q. And you mean simply, then, to say that because the mouth of the 
 Mississippi prevents sea-going vessels from coming in and getting out 
 of the port of New Orleans, that there is a consequent deficiency of 
 river- transportation and freight going down the river? 
 
 A. Tes, sir ; I mean to say that. 
 
 Q. And that is all you mean ? 
 
 A. That is the point to it ; yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Be kind enough to state what the charges are to New Orleans for 
 transshipping grain. I mean the expense at New Orleans of transship- 
 ping grain from the river to sea going vessels. 
 
 A. I don't know, sir, of my own knowledge. 
 
 Q. Now, as to the barges, I understood you to say that they were new ; 
 that you were adopting the barge system now for the boat which you 
 formerly had ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; that is for freight purposes. 
 
 Q. What is the tonnage of those barges ? 
 
 A. That I don't know either. 
 
 Q. Are they exclusively for grain or do they carry all kinds of freight? 
 
 A. They can carry all kinds. It is chiefly for grain, that being the 
 chief article of transportation. 
 
 Q. Are they covered 1! 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I believe they are. They bring miscellaneous freight 
 back up the river, railroad-iron, &c. 
 
 Q. They are towed by steamers ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many in a convoy or tow ? 
 
 A. I think about six. (To Mr. Stanard.) Am I correct about that 1 ? 
 
 Mr. Stanard. It is owing to the stage of the water from three to six. 
 
 Q. Perhaps some gentleman can tell us what their tonnage is ? 
 
 Mr. Bonner. From four to fifteen hundred tons, or they run, perhaps, 
 from six hundred to fifteen hundred tons. 
 
 Q. What is the average size? 
 
 A. The average is about a thousand tons ; that is, of the majority in use. 
 
694 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Hon. Henry T. Blow. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. There is one point in this investigation to which we would 
 like to call your attention particularly. It has occurred to some mem- 
 bers of the committee that the water- transportation is, as a general 
 rule, higher on the Mississippi than on other water-lines, and we would 
 like your views as to the reasons for it if it be true. 
 
 Answer. There are a variety of reasons, as it strikes me. First, the 
 conditions which I suppose you understand, but I had, perhaps, better 
 allude to them. The grain-growing belt of the country is north of the 
 Ohio River — the country that produces the corn and the wheat. There- 
 fore there is an immense competition between the eastern and southern 
 lines — the lines to the markets of the world by the way of New Orleans 
 and the lines to the same markets running across the country. There- 
 fore in this competition the last few years all the capital of the country 
 has gone into the railroad-system and the water-system of the lakes, 
 the water-routes by the way of Canada and by the way of the lakes, 
 the Erie Canal, and the lines across to the sea-board. The capital, and 
 you may say almost the enterprise of the country for the last few years 
 . have gone in that direction. Then we are prevented from competing at 
 a particular season of the year by natural causes with those very lines 
 of communication. The low water in the Mississippi River commences 
 about July or August, and it continues until obstructions from cold 
 weather commence — ice — say until November, and then you may say 
 there is almost a suspension of navigation. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Below what points does this ice obstruction occur ? 
 
 A. The ice obstruction cuts off all north of us between this point, 
 and renders navigation from Saint Louis very irregular, if not some- 
 times entirely obstructed. Of course you are aware that we assume 
 that in the seasons in which the river is not obstructed by those natu- 
 ral causes, and in which we would have to compete with those cross- 
 lines, as well as other seasons of the year, that even with that we have 
 a river that has been entirely neglected and that is rilled up with 
 obstructions natural to rivers. For instance, our river has been entirely 
 neglected by the General Government for many years. Some gentleman 
 mentioned here yesterday about there being a large number of rocks 
 between here and the mouth of the Ohio — five thousand. Of course 
 that is a very grave error, but there are a large number of obstructions 
 between the city of Saint Louis and the mouth of the Ohio River. Be- 
 tween Saint Louis and the source of the Mississippi there are also 
 obstructions, which, of course, you are all familiar with, because your 
 attention has been particularly drawn to them, the upper and lower 
 rapids especially. But what I have mentioned is the main thing in this 
 matter. Then Mr. Bonner, while I agree with him in the main, has not 
 explained to you exactly why it is we have not communication with 
 Liverpool. At the season of the year when we can take grain from the 
 city of Saint Louis to the city of Liverpool, capital and enterprise up to 
 this time have never got a combination by which a line of steamers 
 from Liverpool would meet the barge lines from Saint Louis, and there 
 could be through bills of lading regularly. For instance, you cannot 
 buy grain in the city of Saint Louis and make a rate of freight here to 
 Liverpool regularly. One of the greatest features essential to cheap 
 transportation is that. Then 1 will mention another reason, the want of 
 capital and the want of enterprise, (and you may settle that as you 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 695 
 
 choose among you ;) that whether the combination has either been a 
 want of capital or a want of enterprise, or a combination of the two 
 causes, up to this time the system prevailing on the river until the barge 
 lines innovated upon it, has been an old decaying system of navigation. 
 The men who have had this great enterprise in their charge have utterly 
 neglected to come up to the intelligence of the age, in the requirements 
 of the Mississippi River. Their steamers are not adapted to the river 
 at all, except one or two. The consequence is, that was tried to be 
 improved by a barge ; line system, which has failed for want of connec- 
 tion with Liverpool. You can take freight for 13 to 14 cents a hundred 
 pounds, or 15 cents a hundred is the outside for the barge-line from here 
 to New Orieans; but when a barge meets there it has not got the 
 friendly assistance of a similar mode of transportation ; that is, a cheap 
 facility to Liverpool. I entirely disagree with Mr. Bonner about another 
 thing. 
 
 Q. Will you explain what that barge does meet 1 
 
 A. It meets nothing ; neither a market, capital, nor a system of ocean 
 navigation. Mr. Bonner has stated to you that that was attributable 
 to difficulties in the navigation. That, you are all familiar with. You 
 all understand that we have no sure outlet to the Gulf of Mexico. 
 
 Q. What is your opinion on that point % 
 
 A. My opinion is that the Government ought to have had it many 
 years ago. 
 
 Q. I mean as to the effect of those obstructions there. 
 
 A. The effect of those obstructions is to place the whole carrying 
 trade of the country at the mercy of the cross-lines. 
 
 Q. What would be the effect of the removal of those obstructions so 
 as to give you free open ocean navigation ? 
 
 A. I believe, sir, that the effect would be to induce a combination of 
 capital and enterprise in the valley of the Mississippi as we have never 
 had ; a perfected line of steamers and barges and a new system of car- 
 rying steamers adapted to the trade, economically propelled, beasts of 
 burden carrying great loads of freight, and a system of transfer in New 
 Orleans by which the ocean vessels coming in, with this idea that I 
 have suggested of capital and enterprise meeting there, and a continu- 
 ous system to Liverpool, ending only in the foreign markets of the 
 world. I wish to correct an expression of Mr. Bonner's in that connec- 
 tion. You all know that Marseilles is one of the greatest grain mar- 
 kets in the world, in a tropical climate with great changes and humidity 
 and a great ocean or sea — the Mediterranean — south of it. I think it is 
 saying too much against New Orleans to say that the humidity of the 
 atmosphere there is so much agaiDst grain as Mr. Bonner seems to 
 think. On the contrary, well-preserved grain will not suffer in New 
 Orleans by being exposed for any length of time by which this naviga- 
 tion subjects it to this exposure. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of the combination or otherwise of the 
 steam-lines of this river ? 
 
 A. Steamboating on the Mississippi is a very small thing. It is a 
 decoying interest not amounting to anything. They don't compete with 
 anybody. They combine among themselves, I think. I am just giving 
 that as an independent opinion. I am not as well informed on this sub- 
 ject as these gentlemen who ship, but it has appeared to me that they 
 are singularly defective in everything necessary to the conduct df a 
 great enterprise. 
 
696 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. Do you know whether those transportation lines are incorporated 
 companies under the laws of the State ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think that one of the best lines is an incorporated 
 company. That is an excellent line. It is Mr. Scudder's line of steam- 
 ers to Memphis. 
 
 Q. I speak of the barge lines. 
 
 A. I am of the impression that it is. 
 
 Mr. Bani. It is. 
 
 Mr. Blow. I think I have noticed that they are nearly all incorpo- 
 rated companies. In fact, I know they are, because under the old-fash- 
 ion system of transportation these great, big, over-grown steamers float- 
 ing around here are useless for any purpose, and they ought to be 
 burned up, every one of them. There are a hundred of them that are 
 of no use to anybody ; they have lately got to incorporating the whole 
 of them, because no man would dare put money in them in any other 
 way. It would take his private fortune. One line owes the stockhold- 
 ers $17,000, and is $45,000 in debt for expenses. It is an over-grown 
 tub. It is no navigation. Three-fourths of the navigation of the Mis- 
 sissippi Eiver belongs to a different age; 
 
 Q. How about the northern line? 
 
 A. It is the same way, decoying. 
 
 Q. Is that an incorporated company ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. The Keokuk line and the Northern line, I believe, are 
 both incorporated companies, recently consolidated because of a com- 
 petition which prostrated them both. 
 
 Q. Are those incorporated under the laws of the State of Missouri? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. By general act ? 
 ' A. Yes, sir, general law of the State 1 
 
 Q. No special act ? 
 
 A. No. sir. 
 
 A Bystander. Of Illinois. To prevent paying local taxes here, they 
 incorporated themselves under the State of Illinois law. Barge compa- 
 nies owned in Illinois. 
 
 Mr. Blow. You are asking me about the Northern line ? 
 
 Q. Yes, I want to know simply if they are incorporated under the- 
 laws of the States ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, they are incorporated companies. 
 
 Q. What is the object of that incorporation, so far as you know ? 
 
 A. I suppose it was for the consolidation of capital; but this last 
 grand consolidation, as I understand it — of the Northern line packets 
 with the Keokuk packets — was absolutely to prevent both companies 
 from being utterly destroyed. The competition destroyed them. It is 
 a monopoly. 
 
 Q. Was one object of this incorporation to avoid the law of common- 
 carriers, which makes every owner of the vessels individually liable ? 
 
 A. Yes, I think that is the main object. 
 
 Q. They are then protected by their acts of incorporation from indi- 
 vidual liability ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the effect of this concentration of the means of trans- 
 portation into companies, as to raising freight or lowering it? 
 
 A. It is a combination against the interests of the grain-growers, of 
 course ; persons who have freight to transport. 
 
 Q. They secure higher prices for their freight ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 697 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there anything in the commerce of those vessels that makes it 
 necessary for them to combine, or couldn't they ran as well with separ- 
 ate interests, each vessel for itself ? 
 
 A. The growing obstructions in the river and the general decaying 
 of the system ; I believe it is essential to their preservation. I don't 
 think now, with all the obstacles thrown in the way of navigation, that 
 the present system of vessels could be run successfully. But I think 
 it is a miserable system of vessels, utterly unfitted to the navigation of 
 the river, in the first place. I think that comes from the want of 
 sagacity we ought to have for the requirements of the times. 
 
 Q. Then, if I understand you, these are incorporated companies, the 
 chief object of which is to enable them to concentrate capital ; and, sec- 
 ondly, to avoid the law of common-carriers, which makes them individ- 
 ually liable 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that the effect of this is to increase freights ! 
 
 A. Yes, sir, and to run off a class of people from the river that really 
 have not got the capital to compete with them. I can illustrate that 
 perhaps so that you will understand it. There has been on the ex- 
 change here for the last eighteen months a model of a vessel that will 
 carry freight at three-fourths of what these vessels have been carrying 
 it at and make money, but the capital is in the hands of men who will 
 not build a vessel of this kind, because of the fact that they have so 
 many of those old, worn-out, and miserably-modeled things which form 
 their capital stock. They don't propose to inaugurate a competition 
 which shall be destructive to them. 
 
 Q. These vessels are put in and so much stock in a common associa- 
 tion is taken for the vessels ? 
 
 A. Exactly. 
 
 Q. And whether the vessels run or not is a matter of indifference to 
 the owner of the vessel, because they get a share in the general profit? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; they share pro rata. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling: 
 
 Q. You say that the enterprise and capital give themselves to eastern 
 routes from the Mississippi basin to the Atlantic 1 
 
 A. I do, sir. 
 
 Q. Why is that ! 
 
 A. I state that as a fact. 
 
 Q. I know you did, but I ask you the reason of it ? 
 
 A. I will state it a little differently from what. you make it. I stated 
 that the capital and enterprise of the country was invested in .great 
 lines across the country, through the grain-growing belt of the country. 
 We all know that to be a fact. The railroads have absorbed the capital 
 and enterprise of this country. Why they do it, I suppose, is because 
 they expect to make money and good dividends from their stock, and 
 because situated in that belt it gives a promise of perpetual profit. 
 
 Q. The point of my question was this : If grain can be carried on a 
 down-grade to the mouth of the Mississippi and there find equal facili- 
 ties with those of any other port to European markets, why does capi- 
 tal and why does enterprise embark in east and west lines of railroad 
 across the country to the Atlantic rather than in the north and south 
 lines to the Gulf of Mexico 1 ? 
 
 A. I think that is very simple: because the east and west lines run to 
 the great cities, from which the grain of the country has generally been 
 
698 TRANSPORT ATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 exported, and where the importations of the country come back in re- 
 turn. 
 
 Q. Do you think it is from a mere spirit of imitation, that because it 
 has been, therefore capital elects to keep it so ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I do not think that, but I think that the condition of the 
 great routes south and the condition of the South itself, with its capital 
 entirely gone, render it'for the time being impossible for it to act at all 
 as a capitalist. 
 
 Q. You speak now of the condition of things since the war? 
 
 A. I am speaking of the war and the condition since. 
 
 Q. Wasn't the same thing true previous to the war ? 
 
 A. Previous to the war, my recollection is this : that we hadn't en- 
 gaged in the exportation of grain to as great an extent, but that we had 
 a much larger share of it in proportion than we have now. You see 
 you are going back twelve or fifteen years. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. That is, the river had ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I think that in proportion our receipts in New Orleans 
 and exportations were much larger. Isn't that so, Mr. Stanard ? 
 Mr. Stanard. I think that is so, sir. 
 
 By Mr. CoNKxmG, (to Mr. Blow :) 
 
 Q. If you will allow me, 1 want to make a record of your reasons 
 for the fact that the tread of enterprise and capital is from these basins 
 east and west and not north and south. I wish you to state as you 
 understand them the reasons for that fact. 
 
 A. I believe it has its foundation, first, in a prejudice of capitalists, 
 or a fear, if you please, with regard to the investment of money ; second, 
 in the fact that those railroads do run through these great grain-growing 
 States — through the grain-belt. The great article of transportation on 
 those railroads is grain that is grown in this country. It is necessarily 
 the grain, because it is the only thing that they can export, and they are 
 built for that purpose. 
 
 Q. They didn't run through the grain-belt until they were built, and I 
 am asking you how they came to be built on a line of latitude rather 
 than on a line of longitude. 
 
 A. I think I have stated that because the latitude had the grain and 
 the longitude had not. For instance, the minute that you get below 
 this city, you don't run through these grain-growing States. The grain 
 grown in Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, and Arkansas is for local 
 consumption, and hardly enough for that, while the grain grown in this 
 belt of the country is for exportation, and because it is for exportation 
 you have this very question here between the Grangers and the rail- 
 roads. Now, if you can get what you want from the statement of facts, 
 you can arrive at it. 
 
 Q. I take it, it is true that a railroad is a profitable investment only 
 in the ratio in which it does a large business, is it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, without it has a monopoly and can make very large prices 
 on a moderate amount of freight. 
 
 Q. But the basis of all railroad success must be an abundance of 
 business, must it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I think so. 
 
 Q. In your judgment and experience doesn't capital, as unerringly as 
 anything we know, seek the most profitable and the most safe invest- 
 ments ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 699 
 
 A. I think, sir, with regard to railroads, that they form an exception, 
 but I think I can satisfy you in regard to that especially in the history 
 of the extreme northern line, and the line through to San Francisco that 
 is already built. 
 
 Q. If you will pardon me, you are speaking now of the roads not cre- 
 ated by individual enterprise. You are speaking of two governmental 
 roads, I think. Other considerations enter there, so that, if you please, 
 confine yourself to the field of commerce. 
 
 A. I would allude to that as especially connected with this field for 
 this reason : The great argument in the location of this extreme north- 
 ern railroad was that it did run through a grain-belt. It was to run 
 into that country which, above all others, was to produce the grain. 
 Therefore its appeal to the capitalists was because of that fact. Now, 
 while I instance those two roads to show that where a general system 
 of roads, some of them not altogether firmly based by any means — 
 while a general system of railroads East and West has been successful, 
 that there has been a disposition in the extreme southwestern portion 
 of your State to gamble in railroads; and when they got to that point 
 they put into railroads indiscriminately, and they embarked into that 
 northern railroad a great deal more than was healthy for that country. 
 
 Q. Can you add any reason to this fact that I am inquiring about ? 
 
 A. I am endeavoring to give you all the information I can. 
 
 Q. Do ydu know any railroad on this continent that runs north and 
 south which is a great grain-carrying road ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I should think that all the railroads that start 
 
 Q. Will you name one ? 
 
 A. I think that all the roads running from one hundred and fifty 
 miles north of this', toward the city of Saint Louis, are all grain-carrying 
 roads — carrying an immense amount of grain. 
 
 Q. Carrying it where 1 
 
 A. To the city of Saint Louis ; carrying it to the point where it is 
 the natural outlet of the grain in the valley. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any north and south road which carries grain to 
 the sea for export ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I don't think I do. 
 
 Q. Will you name the time in the year beginning with low water 
 and the time in the year of the going out of ice and the resumption of 
 navigation — the two times, in that respect, which mark the breaking 
 up of navigation here! 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I will connect with that an idea that 1 ought to have 
 given you. The great outflow in grain occurs in the breaking up or the 
 opening of the river — say in January or February and late in the season. 
 That is one of the reasons why we have met with difficulty in getting 
 freights to Liverpool. That is at a time when the greatest production 
 of the South is also ready for the sea and destined for Liverpool. The 
 fact that cotton, wheat, and corn all go to market at the same time has 
 been one of the terrible things we have had to encounter in the Missis- 
 sippi Valley in regard to this matter of. cheap transportation of grain 
 across the ocean. 
 
 Q. Won't you name the time when low water takes effect of which 
 you speak ? 
 
 A. 1 suppose about July or August. Then we frequently have in the 
 winter a splendid rise, keeping the water from the 1st day of January 
 until the 1st day of July, four or five months of uninterrupted naviga- 
 tion, when the stream is in full flow, and then probably the trausporta- 
 
700 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 tion upon it is as safe and economical as in any other stream in the 
 United States. . . 
 
 Q. Now, I seek to get that time when the navigation is good. It is 
 from January or February, you say, until July ? 
 
 A. Say from the 1st of February to July, and also frequently during 
 the whole winter, because we have peculiarities here to which I haven't 
 drawn your attention, nor has Mr. Bonner or any other gentleman whom 
 I have heard. We frequently have, and probably twice out of five 
 winters, an entirely open navigation during the winter, when it is hardly 
 obstructed at all. But it is rather an exception than a rule. 
 
 Q. In sending grain across the continent to New York no through 
 bills to Liverpool are made from the valley of the Mississippi, are 
 there 1 
 
 A. No, sir. That becomes unnecessary, because vessels are always 
 waiting there for that. 
 
 Q. In point of fact, you do not know of any mode of doing business 
 by making through-bills from the Mississippi to Liverpool across the 
 continent ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think that grain can lie in store at New Orleans at all 
 seasons with impunity ? 
 
 A. I think that good grain in a dry place in New Orleans will not be 
 affected at all. 
 
 Q. At any season % 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the objection to a system of grain warehouses by which 
 you can leave grain there ? 
 
 A. The increased cost of doing business. 
 
 Q. Is that the only objection ? 
 
 A. I think so. 
 
 Q. If you bad complete navigation on the river all the time you would 
 be compelled to use elevators and to transship at Sew Orleans, wouldn't 
 you? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the increased cost would be of allowing it to lie in store from 
 the day of its arrival until the day of its departure ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is all, isn't it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the time that is consumed and the interest of the money 
 invested in it. It is a very serious drawback to the shipment of grain. 
 
 Q. Was the navigation of the Mississippi formerly better than it is 
 now? 
 
 A. I think it was, sir. 
 
 Q. How many years ago ? 
 
 A. I think that the reports of the condition of the river, taking the 
 previous ten years, would show a very great difference. 
 
 Q. That is, from a diminution of water ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and the added obstructions. 
 
 Q. How do you account for the diminution of water ? 
 
 A. I suppose by the gradual filling up of the bottom of the river, 
 and its circuitous course to New Orleans. For instance, the Mississippi 
 runs tortously. 
 
 Q. It is sinuous, but of course it runs, in the main, as it always did. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. The navigation of the river by a large number of steam- 
 ers that we had a few years ago, and very large steamers — I think it 
 was injured more during the war, perhaps, than at any other time — that 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 701 
 
 caused the river to be kept in a much better condition than it would be 
 with the present system. When there was a continuous line of steam- 
 ers plying up and down the river, of course the navigation could be 
 kept better, but during the war, when there were very few steamers 
 occupying the channel of the river, that channel had obstructions that 
 cannot be removed now by a continued system of running. They have to 
 have something more ; greater aid than that. I believe you are familiar 
 with the formation of the Eed Eiver raft, and you know it has taken skill 
 and science and money of the United States, but still you have not 
 taken that out of the river. 
 
 Q. When were those large steamers that you speak of disapprovingly 
 built ; those overgrown tubs that you call them ? 
 
 A. We have never had but one kind of a steamer on the river until 
 these barges were built. 
 
 Q. As to this hundred of which you speak floating around here; 
 when were they built ? 
 
 AT They are the lingering steamboats of the past. Of course you 
 know how we built them here. Here were the upper works and the en- 
 gines of an old steamer, and those things are perpetuated. Taking 
 the upper works off and putting them in a new vessel, or taking the 
 old engine out and putting it into a new steamer. For instance, the 
 James Howard. 
 
 Q. When was she built ? * 
 
 A. In the last two years. 
 
 Q. Is she one of the overgrown tubs you speak of? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You think there is a hundred of them ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but not so fine as she. 
 
 Q. How came she to be built so ill-adapted for this navigation ? 
 
 A. Not knowing the requirements of the river. She has a cabin 300 
 feet long. 
 
 Q. Who paid for her? 
 
 A. I suppose the owners. 
 
 Q. Is that a joint stock company f 
 
 A. I do not know whether she belongs to one of the lines or not. 
 
 A Bystander. She belongs to a joint stock company. 
 
 Q. Who is the manager of that company? 
 
 A. B. E. Pegrim. He is the captain of her ; he is a river man, and my 
 partner. 
 
 Mr. Conkling (to Mr. Blow:) 
 
 Q. That steamer was built two years ago ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. Now I wish to explain this to you. This vessel is a 
 freight vessel. I do not think any gentlemen present will assume that 
 there is any necessity for her carrying passengers up and down the 
 river, or that she carries passengers very often. Very few through pas- 
 sengers ever travel on her. She is built exactly as they built a steamer 
 when they had to carry from three to five hundred passengers a trip 
 down and up. She has a cabin that is palatial, say 300 feet long. Of 
 course she carries a great many tons of wood and expensive set of men 
 to operate this cabin, and all the paraphernalia and all the arragements 
 made to carry a large number of passengers ; and now nearly all pas- 
 sengers go-by rail, and she is a freight vessel. She depends upon car- 
 rying freight for making her profit. There are a set of gentlemen who 
 are not engaged in steamboats, who cannot see the exact advantage of 
 having a steamboat of that kind, when all that we want is a cargo-box, 
 
702 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 a hull, and an engine that is adapted to carrying so many bushels of 
 grain at the lowest possible point. 
 
 Q. Are all those steamers of which you speak, these hundred, for ex- 
 ample, passenger boats? 
 
 A. No, sir; the barge system is entirely different. 
 
 Q. No, no. Are all the hundred overgrown steamers passenger boats 
 in build? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think most of them. 
 
 Q. Now, what do you mean by those joint-stock companies avoiding 
 the liability of common carriers ? I don't understand that. How do 
 they avoid the liability ? 
 
 A. I do not suppose they do in any other way than this. If you were 
 to build a steamer, and run her yourself, you would be liable for all 
 debts created by that steamer, and for all the damage she might inflict, 
 and all the trouble she might cause. In the other case, if you were in 
 one of these companies, you put $10,000 in that company, you would 
 loose the $10,000 and no more. • 
 
 Q. Uuder what law is that? 
 
 A. Under the State of Missouri and of Illinois too. 
 
 Q. And you mean they do it not to avoid the law of common carriers, 
 but the law of co-partnership. They make themselves stockholders in 
 place of partners, is that the idea ? 
 
 A Bystander. Yes, sir. 
 
 A. They avoid the law of common carriers to a certain extent, because 
 while they are interested in the steamboat $10,000 they do not have a 
 liability beyond the amount of their subscription. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Let me see if I understand the substance of your statement. Has 
 the Mississippi River ever been put in good condition for navigation by 
 the United States Government ? 
 
 A. Never, sir. I express my opinions very freely in that, I have 
 lived upon its banks since my boyhood. I think it has been the most 
 neglected interest that the United States ever had. It has never received 
 attention from anybody, from the States on it or from the United 
 States Government ; that is, attention corresponding to what it was 
 entitled to. 
 
 Q. You think it was in better condition before the war than it has 
 been since the war ? 
 
 A. Certainly, sir. 
 
 Q. You stated awhile ago, as I remember, that the commerce upon the 
 Mississippi Biver was much better before the war than it has been 
 since the war ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you attribute the falling off of that commerce since the war 
 in part to the condition of the river, as well as to the impoverished 
 condition of the southern people ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now from those starting-points, suppose that freight here at Saint 
 Louis seeking a foreign port, and the Mississippi were in good condition 
 by dams and dikes, so as to give a proper quantity of water throughout 
 the year, what direction would that freight go to seek that port cheapest? 
 
 A. I am clearly of the opinion that a very large portion of it, at the 
 seasons when navigation is not obstructed in the manner that I have 
 mentioned, would seek that channel to the markers of the world. I am 
 satisfied that the largest portion of it would. I don't think a railroad 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 703 
 
 would compete with it, if it was properly fostered by the United States 
 Government and protected. 
 
 Q, Do you know the relative cost of transportation between rail and 
 water ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. State what that proportion is — the ratio. 
 
 A. I haven't figured that out. 
 
 Q. The general statement is, that it is about as one to three. 
 
 A. I think it is greater than that in high water. I think it is less in 
 proportion in high water; because taking 60 cents for a hundred pounds 
 to New York and 15 cents to New Orleans, that would be one-fourth. 
 But I have no doubt one-third would be safe. 
 
 Q. Do you think, if the Mississippi Eiver had been in proper condi- 
 tion for navigation the year around, as you say it would be if it were 
 properly dammed and diked — iu other words, that there would be a suffi- 
 cient supply of water — that those railroad lines, which cost three times 
 the amount to carry freight over that it does over water, would ever 
 have been built in competition with the river from this section of the 
 country? 
 
 A. Certainly not J sir. It has been as I have said; the enterprise and 
 capital of the country run almost exclusively into the railroads growing 
 out of the condition at the time. 
 
 Q. Is it or is it not your opinion that it is owing entirely to the fact 
 that the Mississippi Eiver has not been in good condition that those 
 artificial channels of commerce have been constructed? 
 
 A. I will not go that far, but I will say this in regard to the Missis- 
 sippi Eiver 
 
 Q. I mean to say those artificial channels of commerce which carry 
 the produce that centers at Saint Louis and other points along which 
 would naturally seek an outlet at the mouth of the river ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; those grow out of the total neglect of the Mississippi 
 Eiver to a certain extent. Now I will state this because it will be an in- 
 teresting thing for you to investigate on your trip to New Orleans. I 
 believe, from my knowledge of the Mississippi Eiver, and what I heard 
 Mississippi Eiver men and others say about it, that if you let the Mis- 
 sissippi remain neglected in the next ten years as it has been in the last 
 ten year's of that river, in that time that there is no system of naviga- 
 tion which could be brought about which would pay anybody for its 
 navigation. I don't think there is any system. In other words, the 
 natural tendency of the river, without it is guarded, protected, and 
 cleaned out, and navigated, would render it perfectly useless to the en- 
 tire country. 
 
 Q. You spoke a while ago of a diminution of water on the Mississippi 
 Eiver. Did you, or did you not, mean that literally ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; there is a diminution of the river, and that will increase 
 rapidly. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say that the volume of water passing through the 
 Mississippi Eiver is diminishing annually ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; it diminishes gradually; but the trouble with regard 
 to the Mississippi Eiver is this : that the tendency now is to fill up from 
 the city of Saint Louis to the valleys, and as the bottom fills up, the 
 river finds new outlets, and is wasted. The area for evaporation is in- 
 creased, and the consequence is that you have a constantly increasing 
 obstruction from one point to the other, and a lesser channel in the 
 river. Now, if you cut off all these points that I have alluded to, and 
 
704 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 straighten the river, and navigate it, and protect it, you have deep 
 water. I think that is common sense. 
 
 Q. Doesn't this diminution of water render the Mississippi more easily- 
 controllable, if it was properly diked and dammed? In other words, 
 wouldn't it be less liable to overflow its banks in a freshet, and do less 
 damage on either side, and still give a sufficient supply of water for or- 
 dinary navigation? 
 
 A. That is an engineering question, sir, that I do not care to answer. 
 I haven't investigated it. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling- : 
 
 Q. Have you ever taken the trouble to ascertain how much money the 
 United States appropriated to the improvement of the Mississippi 
 Eiver? 
 
 A. Do you mean from the first to the last ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir ; or from the last to the first, or from the last to the mid- 
 dle? 
 
 A. I did once, when I was in Congress, see the amount between the 
 coast of the United States and all the rivers flowing through the in- 
 terior ; but I don't recollect what it was. 
 
 Q. Now the coast is a pretty large place. I am talking of the Mis- 
 sissippi Eiver. You remarked here that it had been more neglected 
 than any other interest of the republic, or something of that sort. My . 
 question is simply whether you have ever taken the trouble to ascertain 
 from first to last, or for any ten years, how much money has been ap- 
 propriated to improve this river f 
 
 A. My impression is, that from the time of the war up to the present 
 time, some thirteen or fourteen years, between this city and the city of 
 New Orleans, the amount is absolutely so insignificant that it is not 
 worth mentioning. Now I speak of that time because I am perfectly 
 familiar with it. 
 
 Q. Won't you answer my question ■? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I am 
 
 Q. It is, whether you have ever ascertained — — 
 
 A. I have stated that I did ascertain, but I do not recollect. 
 
 Q. You don't remember it? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I don't remember. 
 
 Q. Can you state, within $200,000, the amount which has been appro- 
 priated to improve the Mississippi River ? 
 
 A. No, sir. I should not think that it would be hardly fair to ask a 
 man to state within $200,000. It is a thing that ought to have involved 
 millions. 
 
 Q. I will take it that way. Can you state within half a million ? 
 
 A. I don't think there has been half a million expended. 
 
 Q. In all? 
 
 A. No, sir; between the city of Saint Louis and the city of New Or- 
 leans, I do not think there has been half a million expended since the 
 war. But I will tell you this, that I have not refreshed my mind in re- 
 gard to that. I am answering your questions simply to be polite. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. In that same line, let me ask you whether several millions have 
 not been expended above. 
 
 A. O, yes, sir j I am more familiar with the appropriations above 
 here. 
 
 Q. How many millions havebeen expended? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 705 
 
 A. Well, sir, I should think that you would know that better than I 
 could. It is not exactly incumbent on me to recollect everything that 
 you gentlemen- do. The amount has been very generous, I know, at 
 both rapids, and very necessary, and I know that it has attracted atten- 
 tion for a great many years, and that there is a powerful constituency, 
 and a powerful impelling motive for action. The Northwest is very pow- 
 erful, and the South is very weak. 
 
 Q. Was there ever any toll levied on any improvements along the 
 Mississippi Eiver ? 
 
 A. Not that I ever heard of. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any toll having been levied on any waters of the 
 Mississippi ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 Q. Did you ever hear of the Louisville Canal 1 
 A. That is an exception, I believe, almost, isn't it 1 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Q. Yes, sir ; it is an exception. 
 A. That was under peculiar circumstances. 
 
 Examination of E. W. Gould, president of the Missouri Eiver Packet 
 Company. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Please state to the committee what has been your occupa- 
 tion for several years past. 
 
 Answer. I have been engaged on the rivers for about forty years. 
 
 Q. In what capacity ? 
 
 A. As clerk and master of boats, and president of different lines of 
 boats. 
 
 Q. Can you give us any information as to whether these steamboat- 
 lines run in competition with each other, as a general rule, or in combi- 
 nation ? 
 
 A. As a rule it is competition always ; I say as a rule it would be so. 
 There are a few instances, perhaps, when there is a combination, but 
 not, to my knowledge, to any extent. 
 
 Q. Do you speak of the lower or upper river now ? 
 
 A. I speak of all the rivers. I have been engaged on all the rivers 
 at different periods of my life. Of late years there have been consoli- 
 dated companies or joint-stock companies formed, that formerly did not 
 exist. 
 
 Q. Taking in a considerable number of vessels in each company, I 
 suppose ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. Prom your knowledge have freights increased or decreased re- 
 cently on the lower river, or have they been about the same as they 
 were fifteen or twenty years ago ? 
 
 A. I have not the data by which I could determine whether they 
 have increased or not. My impression is that the freights have not de- 
 creased at all on the Lower Mississippi. 
 
 Q. What do you say to the volume of business done on the Mississippi 
 now compared with fifteen or twenty years ago ? 
 
 A. Do you speak of the whole Mississippi or the western rivers gen- 
 erally? 
 
 45 ts 
 
706 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOAED. 
 
 Q. I speak of the whole Mississippi. Has the volume increased 
 within the last fifteen years, or has it diminished? 
 
 A. I think it has diminished. 
 
 Q. How do you account for that ? 
 
 A. From the exceeding competition from railroads. 
 
 Q. But you think the prices charged are about the same as they 
 were ? 
 
 A. As an average I am inclined to the belief that the prices have di- 
 minished. The stage of water, as you understand, has regulated the 
 prices very much and always; but as a whole, I am inclined to the 
 opinion, without having the data to refer to, which are, I believe, at you 
 command, the prices have diminished. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS: 
 Q. That is, the prices are less now than they were before the war ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What is your opinion as to the condition of the river ; is it better 
 or worse than it was fifteen or twenty years ago ? 
 
 A. Better. 
 
 Q. You think it has been improving? 
 
 A. Decidedly. 
 
 Q. In what respect ? 
 
 A. By the removal of obstructions by the very small and meager 
 appropriations which have been made for the improvement of the river. 
 It has done very much to improve the condition of the river. There are 
 not half the losses now that there were formerly. At least I think not. 
 That is simply my recollection or judgment. 
 
 Q. You believe, from your practical experience as a steamboat-man, 
 that it is entirely practicable, then, to thoroughly improve it at reason- 
 able expense ? 
 
 A. 1 think it is, without a doubt. The experience of a few years has 
 shown the very great utility of even small appropriations properly ap- 
 plied. 
 
 Q. What would be your judgment as to the effect on commerce and 
 transportation charges of- a thorough improvement of the river? 
 
 A. It would of course be very much reduced. The river, undoubtedly, 
 from the little experience that I have had, is susceptible of being made 
 almost as navigable as a canal, and as free from obstructions, at a very 
 small cost. 
 
 Q. Is the volume of water increasing or decreasing annually? 
 
 A. I do not think there are any data by which that can be arrived at. 
 We have periods of high water, ranging for five or six years, and then 
 we have periods of low water. I have no means of knowing, and 
 never have seen any reliable tables or calculations by which it could 
 be determined that the volume of water was less. It is generally con- 
 ceded that we do not have so many floods as formerly, for reasons given, 
 and those reasons are generally the settling up of the country. Whether 
 there is anything in that I apprehend has never been fully determined. 
 
 Q. Has there been any material change in the manner of conducting 
 transportation on the river within the last ten or fifteen years ? I mean 
 as to the vessels carrying this commerce. 
 
 A. The boats have been better adapted, and are being made that 
 way every year — better adapted to the navigation, but that has arisen 
 in consequence of the more improved condition of the river. What was 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 707 
 
 once consistent as a good carrier is no longer consistent from the com- 
 petition and from the character of the river. Improvements having 
 been made, to some considerable extent, vessels of a larger and better 
 adapted character are used now, that could not formerly be used, and 
 were not necessary to be built. The tonnage was not required. 
 
 Q. Is competition as active on the river as it was several years ago — 
 say for the length of time I mention ; fifteen to twenty years ago 1 
 A. I think it is quite as active. 
 
 Q. Do you think that the present system of incorporated large com- 
 panies is as likely to bring about the active and sharp competition as 
 the old system of running individual boats ? 
 
 A. Tes, sir, more so, from the fact that companies are better able to 
 build boats adapted to the wants of navigation than individuals are. 
 Q. Are they as likely to compete with each other f 
 A. So far as I have been able to determine that fact, it is so. I should 
 presume it would continue to be so from my observation on the sea, if 
 you please, where they have always the same water. I believe the 
 increase of tonnage there has not tended to materially reduce prices. 
 
 Q. I don't know that I made myself understood. I think that would, 
 of course, be the effect of increased tonnage, but is it the effect of com- 
 bining a large number of vessels in a single incorporated company, or 
 do you understand it to be so 1 
 
 A. Tou ask if I think that would have the tendency to reduce com- 
 petition ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. In order that you will understand my point, my question 
 is this, whether the incorporated companies that now operate on the 
 river are as likely to compete actively with each other as formerly, when 
 individuals owned the vessels and run their own separate vessels in the 
 trade ? 
 
 A. As a natural consequence one would suppose that the smaller the 
 number of companies competing the less competition there would be; 
 but so far as we have gone yet we find quite as many competing parties 
 as are necessary, and very many more than are profitable. The river 
 interest has been languishing very much, and these combinations have 
 been made for the purpose of protecting and enabling parties engaged, 
 of course, to do away to a certain extent with the very sharp competi- 
 tion that has reduced the profits to the point below which are paying. 
 Hence I would conclude that the result might be carried so far that the 
 prices would be not made as low as if the competition were between in- 
 dividuals as a final result. 
 
 Q. Is there an ample supply of vessels now for the commerce of the 
 river ? 
 
 A. There is very much more tonnage than there is business. There 
 has been no remuneration to the carriers on the western rivers since 
 the war. The war stimulated the traffic, of course, but it was not legit- 
 imate and not to be taken into account. 
 
 Q. Is that from too low prices or want of a sufficient amount of busi- 
 ness? 
 A. Prices too low to make it remunerative. 
 Q. Can the steamboat-lines compete with the barge-lines ? 
 A. In the transportation of the heavy down-stream freight, the prin- 
 cipal freight that you carry South, I think they cannot. The barge-line 
 is an institution very modern, and I apprehend that the final results have 
 not been fully demonstrated as to whether the barge-line is the better 
 way or not. I at the same time am satisfied that it is a better way than 
 the character of boats that have heretofore been run, so that your ques- 
 
708 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 tion would be answered simply by saying that I think the barge-line for 
 the transportation of the heavy freight down the stream is the success- 
 ful kind of transportation. 
 By Mr. Conkling : 
 
 Q. Do you remember the tonnage of the Mississippi River ? 
 
 A. I do not. . 
 
 Q. Do you remember the total freight ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you then, if you please, in your own way, indicate what dis- 
 crepancy of this proportion you make between the amount of tonnage 
 . and the employment of it? Take it in this way : how much more freight 
 could the present tonnage carry than it does 1 
 
 A. That would simply be a guess that I would arrive at. 
 
 Q. I suppose so, sir ; but you can guess. 
 
 A. I suppose there is sufficient tonnage on the river now to transport 
 at least double the freight we are offered. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Can river- freight be transported as low as lake-freight per mile? 
 
 A. It can in high water, I believe. 
 
 Q. A good stage of water ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I believe there is no question on the score of practical en- 
 gineering about making a stage of water between here and New Orleans 
 which will enable vessels to carry freight as cheaply as carried upon the 
 lakes or upon tide- water. 
 
 Q. Do you know what the cost is, sir? 
 
 A. You have the figures, I think, before your committee, and perhaps 
 more correctly than I could give them to you. Of course, as I said before, 
 it would always go up at once, owing to the character of the water and 
 other circumstances. Transportation by our steamboats depends very 
 much also, not only upon the stage of the water, but the amount of travel 
 there is going on on the river, which is only periodical as you may say. 
 Portions of the year we carry a very large number of passengers, and 
 the passenger-traffic is very valuable and profitable, and while the gen- 
 tleman who preceded me would discredit the character of the present 
 boats, I am very unwilling, as a representative of that interest, to' con- 
 cede that point. He makes a particular reference to the steamer James 
 Howard as being an " overgrown tub," if you please. I should be sorry 
 to have this committee or any other committee of representative gen- 
 tlemen go from here and suppose that that fact is well established. I 
 believe it can be shown that the James Howard is a good investment ; 
 that the owners will be largely remunerated even in the dull time in 
 which she has been out, and that she is one of the best investments of 
 river-craft that has ever been made. I would not even except the barge- 
 transportation, which is now in the ascendant. 
 
 Q. You are a steamboat-man, are you? 
 
 A. I have been for forty years engaged on the rivers in all capacities and 
 characters of boats. I have built and run boats like the James Howard ; 
 not so large, but of the same character ; and I speak, I believe, under- 
 standing^ as to the success of the James Howard, the boat which has 
 been referred to as one that is overgrown. 
 
 By Mr. Conkling- : 
 
 Q. What is the use of her cabin, which is said to be of such large 
 dimensions ? 
 A. For the accommodation of a class of passengers who will always 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 709 
 
 travel by the river, and she carries a great many, and her passenger- 
 traffic is very large and very profitable, as 1 understand from the owners. 
 I am not an owner in her, but I know parties that are, and who built 
 her. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. Have you a knowledge of the carrying-vessels on.the lakes ? 
 
 A. No, sir; not very much. I am not personally acquainted with 
 lake navigation. 
 
 Q. From your knowledge, do you think the character of your vessels 
 is as well adapted to the river as they are to the lake ? 
 
 A. I think that they are being made so, sir. As I said, the interest 
 has been very much under par for the last few years, and there have been 
 but few fine boats built ; but those built I think are as well adapted as 
 those on the lakes, and they are profitable or they would not be con- 
 tinued. Of course we are at the same time giving them more freight 
 capacity, but still continuing the passenger capacity; and as to there 
 being a hundred, or fifty, or twenty useless hulks of immense growth, 
 I don't think there are ten ; I do not know of ten on the rivers, and I 
 believe I know every boat that is afloat, and the character of the boat. 
 I believe they are useful, and all the modern-built boats are profitable, 
 except at certain periods of the year. Of course they are suffering at 
 this time. 
 
 Q. In your opinion as a river-man, and with the improvements that 
 you are now making in the boats, and the proper improvement of the 
 Mississippi Eiver, what per cent, would freightage be reduced from here 
 to New Orleans? In other words, how much less could it be' carried 
 with the improvements of the river and boats, than you are now 
 charging ? 
 
 A. I don't think I could give you a satisfactory solution of that ques- 
 tion. I can simply say that the parties now owning that sort of vessels, 
 coming in competition with the others, would reap very largely in the 
 benefits over the old ones. Of course they could carry freights cheaper 
 and do carry them cheaper on the better or improved character of boats, 
 and they are very largely, as I said before, benefited by their passenger- 
 traffic which seeks the river. 
 
 Q. You will confine your answer to the boats. My question was to 
 the improvements of the boats and a thorough improvement of the river 
 . by the Government. 
 
 A. Well, sir, that would be a matter of opinion, but I think it would 
 be reduced one half. I think 50 per cent, would be a fair calculation 
 for a practical improvement, such as is practical in the estimation of ' 
 good engineers. 
 
 Q. Do you mean 50 per cent, or one-half? 
 
 A. I should say one-half the present cost. 
 
 Q. Then if 15 cents per hundred is the rate now, which I believe you 
 say is the rate, isn't it 1 
 
 A. No, sir; it is more than double that. Fifteen cents is the lowest 
 minimum price that freight can be or has been carried profitably to New 
 Orleans for, I think. 
 
 Q. In a good stage of Water ? 
 
 A. At any stage of water. 
 
 Q. Then with the improvement at the same stage of water under the 
 same circumstances, do you think it would be done for 7£ or 8 cents ? 
 
 A. I think it might be carried for one-half that price. You confound 
 my meaning, or I would in giving it to you unless I qualify it a little 
 
710 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 further. I have stated 15 cents to be the lowest minimum rate of freight 
 at high water. We do not have high water more than perhaps one- 
 third of the season, and heuce, now, 30 cents is the price. Then taking 
 an average and making it all high water, or a good stage of water, which 
 it is supposed can be maintained between here and New Orleans, the 
 average rate through the year would be one-half. Not one-half less 
 than the high-water rate, but the average of the season, the cost of the 
 freights would be reduced one-half. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Is not Saint Louis a distributing-point for the principal products 
 .of the West ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think so, to a great extent. 
 
 Q. Through what channels of commerce does that produce, taking it 
 in the aggregate, seek domestic and foreign markets ? 
 
 A. There are certain kinds of produce, the bulk of the produce I sup- 
 pose, goes South. The more valuable portion goes by rail Bast, seeking 
 the Atlantic board. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by " the more valuable f 
 
 A. Higher-cost freight. Flour, and the valuable exports, we will say 
 corn, oats, and grain, generally, I think, so far as it goes abroad, goes 
 South. The manufactured articles, like beef and whisky, flour, &c, and 
 that kind of freight, I think the large bulk of it goes 
 
 Q. Well, confine yourself to bread. Do you mean to say that the 
 principal portion of breadstuffs distributed from Saint Louis goes 
 South i 
 
 A. I think so, sir. The statistics that we gentlemen will furnish you, 
 I believe determine that. I think they are kept at the chamber of com- 
 merce. I am not advised as to that, but I believe that is so. 
 
 Q. You don't know what proportion of these breadstuffs comedown 
 the Mississippi? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I have not the data. 
 
 Q. Through what channels do they reach the South ? 
 
 A. Through New Orleans. 
 
 Q. Taking the Southern Atlantic States f 
 
 A. The bulk of them go through New Orleans, I apprehend. 
 
 Q. Do yon mean of the Southern Atlantic States ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that is the question I understood you to put. As to how 
 they found the market from this point to the South, I think the bulk of 
 them goes to New Orleans and there are transshipped coastwise. For 
 the last two years I have not watched very closely the southern trade, 
 being more particularly engaged in the West and the North, but I think 
 the parties are here to show how much of them go by rail from this 
 point. 
 
 Q. Then they seek New Orleans with the disadvantage of a freight 
 which is double what you think it would be if the riv er was improved 1 
 
 A. I think it does, sir. 
 
 Examination of John L. McGuen. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. I believe you have been engaged for a good many years in 
 steamboating, have you not? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; a good many years. 
 
 Q. How long? 
 
 A.. About thirty-three years. 
 
 Q. If you have any information which you can give us with reference 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 711 
 
 to the navigation of this river, or the importance of improvements, I 
 should be glad to hear them without any other questions. 
 
 A. I feel a good deal interested in the navigation of the Mississippi. 
 I am more particularly acquainted with the Upper Mississippi Kiver 
 and the obstacles and the natural obstructions there ; much more so 
 than below ; still, I have been acquainted more or less with those below 
 for the last thirty years. 
 
 Q. We would like to hear of those above as well as of the others, and 
 anything you have to suggest as to them. 
 
 A. Our greatest difficulty there seems to be the rapids. The upper 
 rapids have been very much improved within the last four or five years. 
 The lower rapids, of course, have not been improved. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Improved how ; by the Government ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; nothing else would improve them. They are solid rock, 
 and consequently have to be blown out or chiseled out. The Govern- 
 ment has spent an immense amount of money to improve the lower 
 rapids, all which as yet, of course, has been of no benefit to navigation. 
 We still want a little more to complete it. Then we are under the im- 
 pression that it will make a great change in the price of freight and the 
 speed with which we shall go through. They have spent several millions 
 there, but it has been spent in such a way that a great deal of it has 
 been lost. I was up this season looking into it, to see if the matter 
 could not be pushed on a little faster, making some complaints to the 
 parties In charge. They complain that the Government has given them 
 such small sums that it was partially wasted away by the time the next 
 appropriation would be- made. I do think that the work has been de- 
 layed much longer than necessary, even with the amount of money that 
 has been appropriated. Eesponsible parties will agree to put that work 
 in safe operation in twelve months with a reasonable amount of money, 
 and give any security necessary. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Q. What is the " reasonable amount of money" which you allude to ? 
 
 A. A reasonable amount would be from six to eight hundred thousand 
 dollars. I don't mean by this that it would entirely complete the work, 
 but I do mean that it would put it in condition so that we could navi- 
 gate without any trouble. Then some portions of it afterwards could 
 be finished. The banks, ripraps, &c, could be finished afterwards. 
 That would be one of the most valuable improvements on the whole 
 Mississippi Biver. The lower rapids, called. the Des Moines rapids, is a 
 first-rate job, well done. 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Q. It is a canal, isn't it ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. If the toll expense will be reasonable or small there it 
 will make an immense difference in the price of transportation. You 
 are charged 12 \ cents for freight to or from Keokuk, which is just below 
 the rapids, and as soon as you get above Port Madison, twenty miles, we 
 there charge 25 cents. We make more money on the 12£-cent freight 
 than on the 25-cent freight ; it is only thirty miles from there. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS: 
 Q. Would 25 cents be a reasonable charge, carpenters' measure, as 
 they term it ? 
 A. It dont pay well at 25 cents a hundred. 
 
712 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Q. No, no ; I mean the charge for the use of the canal — tolls. 
 
 A. Twenty-five cents for what 1 
 
 Q. Calculating the vessel. 
 
 A. I don't understand your question. Twenty-five cents a ton, doyon 
 mean, on the freight you bring over ? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. 
 
 A. No, sir ; I think 25 cents would be too much. 
 
 Q. What do you think would be right % 
 
 A. I figured on that a little with other steamboat-men engaged with 
 me in the business there, and we have thought that 15 cents a ton would 
 be, if it could be managed and carried on and kept in order, a very 
 liberal price ; that is to say, a fair price ; as low as we should expect 
 it to be placed. 
 
 Q. What would be the expense to — in other words, would the 15 cents 
 defray all the necessary expenses of keepingin repair and the necessary 
 men employed there % , 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it would pay every expense that would be necessary, and 
 keep it in order, and have everything attended to, at 15 cents a ton. We 
 "would then have a much larger amount of freight both ways carried than 
 now, of course. 
 
 A. You say you have estimated it. How much is your estimate that 
 it would yield in round numbers at 15 cents? 
 
 A. I could not give you those statistics just now, from the fact that we 
 estimated somewhat in this way : We pay the railroads, if you choose, 75 
 cents a ton, we having all the labor putting it into the cars and taking 
 it out. When we can cross the rapids with a little tow-boat that we 
 have for that purpose, towing flats that will draw about 20 inches when 
 loaded, we can bring it over for 40 cents ourselves. But, as I say, when 
 the railroad brings it, we pay them, as is the case now, 75 cents. The 
 labor in getting it on the flats from steamers, and back again into the 
 boat, is not the half that it is for putting it on to the cars. It has to be 
 carried at some distance from the shoal and then back. We were under 
 the impression from figuring up that it would take butfew men to attend 
 to those locks, and the work is of such character that it will take but a 
 small amount of money to keep it in order after it is once finished. It 
 is as fine a job of work, so far, as I have ever seen. I have been over it 
 every year since it has been started. 
 
 Q. What would be the length of the canal % 
 
 A. The whole length of the rapids is twelve miles, but the length of 
 the canal proper would be about nine. There, however, we will have a 
 wing-dam thrown out that will give you a sufficiency of water above 
 nine miles up to the end of the twelve. The canal commences at the 
 end of the rapids at Keokuk and runs up about nine miles. With a first- 
 rate dike completed all the way from Keokuk up the nine miles, except 
 a little riprapping that we have to do, the dike is completed. It is made 
 out in the middle of the river, which forms the canal proper. 
 
 Q. So as to give us an idea of the value of the improvement, what pro- 
 portion of the year can you pass over now by lightening, and what pro- 
 portion do you have to use the rail f 
 
 A. That is somewhat irregular, because at some seasons we have much 
 better water than others. 
 
 Q. What is the average as near as you can get at it ? 
 
 A. I suppose from two to three months in the year we have the rail- 
 roads engaged for that purpose. We now have a train chartered for 
 our own use all the time to run backwards and forwards for passengers, 
 and then we pay them so much a ton for freight. We pay them 50 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 713 
 
 cents for each passenger, and if the amount we send don't pay them so 
 much a day, we agree to pay the balance. 
 
 Q. Then, I understand you, from two to three months-is the average, 
 and you have nine months only in which you can get over and do the 
 work with your own lighters 1 
 
 A. No, sir ; I did not mean to convey that idea. I meant to convey 
 the idea that we have from two to three months that we have to use 
 the railroad, sir, altogether ; then a part of the time we use our own 
 lighters to tow; then a part of the time we pass over uninterruptedly, 
 and then part of the time the river is closed. Say three months it is 
 closed. Therefore-that makes the twelve mouths. 
 
 Q. If there is any other general statement that you wish to make, we 
 should be glad to hear you. 
 
 A. I will say that the Government has improved the upper rapids, 
 which I will first explain. It has been improved without any locks, 
 merely by building coffer-dams and blowing it out. They have blown 
 the channel out 200 feet wide. That answers our purpose as to width 
 very well. But unfortunately when you come to make a turn the curve 
 is so short that you cannot make it in safety. I took the wheel myself 
 to try it this summer to see how the thing would work, and whether it 
 could not be put through a little more scientifically, but I couldn't do it 
 quite as well as the pilot, and struck the rock in making the'curve. 
 
 Q. With the completion of the canal you would have no further 
 difficulty there, and want no railroads ? 
 
 A. No, sir; that is the lower rapids, the Des Moines rapids; that 
 will answer our purpose exactly ; that is in a fair state of completion, and 
 with a little more money it can be done. It will obviate that difficulty 
 entirely. The upper rapids, however, want a little more work. Thes6 
 curves must be blown out where the turn is; it is too short. There 
 must be some more work done there. They could chisel it out with 
 large chisels without the expense of blowing it. There must be some 
 more money spent there to make them equal to the lower when com- 
 pleted. With a little more money there the navigation of the whole 
 river, then, would be pretty much the same from Saint Louis to Saint 
 Paul. With a little money we can have a first-rate river from Cairo to 
 Saint Paul, by that kind of improvement. I would here remark, as to 
 the money which has been spent by the Government on the Missouri 
 Eiver, that we never were able to tow any barges there at all until re- 
 cently. Since they have improved that river by taking snags out, 
 steamboats can now tow barges pretty safely up and down. It has 
 improved immensely. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. What distance? 
 
 A. Up to Saint Joe ; some five hundred miles. 
 
 Q. Do you mean five hundred above this point, or the mouth of the 
 river ? 
 
 A. Five hundred above this point. It shows that money has not 
 been uselessly spent even upon that river. 
 
 Mr. Gould recalled at his own request. 
 
 Mr. Gotjld. 'I wish to say in regard to the Missouri Biver, to which 
 Mr. McOuen has just referred, I had intended to have spoken of this 
 matter when I was giving my testimony heretofore. It is this : We have 
 had some small appropriations for the Missouri Eiver, and very small ; 
 sufficient barely to test the practicability of removing the snags from 
 
714 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 the river in order to make it more navigable. I want to say, as I believe 
 the engineers have said in tbeir reports, that with the small appropria- 
 tions that have been made there have been very material' improvements 
 made in the navigation of that stream. As you all know, it is a very 
 long and a very important stream, in the character of the navigation. 
 It has become almost useless to commerce and the rail has the monopoly 
 of the carrying trade along the Missouri, but by small appropriations 
 each year the Missouri might be made as navigable, or very nearly so, 
 as the river from here to Cairo, and made entirely practicable for the 
 use of barges as stated by Mr. McOuen. We have this fall, for the first 
 time, towed barges in the river successfully, but only as a matter of ex- 
 periment. By a little appropriation each year, by the same means that 
 have been resorted to by the snag-boats which are now built, it is be- 
 lieved that a very practical navigation may be made for barges, and 
 this year I refer to it particularly as there will be an effort made, I trust, 
 by representatives in Congress in that interest for a large appropriation 
 of money for the improvement of the Missouri Eiver. As the reports 
 will be before you, I think you will very readily concede that there is a 
 very great advantage to commerce to be derived from small appropria- 
 tions annually to the Missouri. I knew your inquiries were made par- 
 ticularly as to the Mississippi, and hence 1 said nothing of the Missouri 
 when before you, but you are all familiar with the very great length of 
 that river, and also, of course, to some extent, of the commerce of the 
 river that would seek it as an avenue to the markets by comparatively 
 small appropriations. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Q. Tou said you had been on the Mississippi for thirty or forty years, 
 I believe ? 
 
 A. On the western rivers. I have navigated on all of them more or 
 less. 
 
 Q. How long have you navigated the Mississippi ? 
 
 A. Between here and New Orleans perhaps half that time — twenty 
 years. 
 
 Q. How does the tonnage of the decade between 1850 and 1860 com- 
 pare with the tonnage now between Saint Louis and New Orleans? 
 
 A. I think I stated that I did not think it had been much diminished, 
 but probably it may have a little. What has been withdrawn in the 
 withdrawal of steamboats, barges have been substituted, so that my 
 impression is that there has not been very much difference between these 
 two decades. 
 
 Q. You stated that the business now was about half the tonnage, I 
 believe"? 
 
 A. I don't think there was over half. 
 
 Q. How was that between 1850 and 1860 ? 
 
 A. Some periods of the year the same would probably be the case 
 then. 
 
 Q. That the tonnage was twice the business 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir; during what we call the low-water season, which is now 
 over. I refer to this time in the year, and not the whole year, in my an- 
 swer. I did not mean to say that the aggregate of 1873 would not be 
 over half of the tonnage we had capacity for, but at a time during the 
 low-water season, which is about four months. 
 
 Q. There is a good portion of the time, then, that you say this tonnage 
 was not employed ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 715 
 
 Q. Was or wasn't that business profitable ? 
 
 A. No, sir, it was not. Prices were necessarily so high that the 
 freights were either retained or shipped by rail. 
 
 Q. Why did capitalists engage in that business if it was not remu- 
 nerative ? 
 
 A. They have been withdrawing it or changing it very much in the 
 last ten years, and there are a large number of men whose boats have 
 been diminished in number, and capacity has been increased, and instead 
 of having a boat with a thousand tons capacity, that boat now has two 
 thousand tons and employs only the same number of men, and the men 
 who are now engaged on the river are not, as a rule, capitalists, and there 
 is very little capital, as a rule, seeking that kind of investment. 
 
 Q. Didn't you say just now that the tonnage was about the same as 
 it was between 1850 and 1860 ? 
 
 A. I said I thought that was so. 
 
 Q. And you say it is diminishing now ? 
 
 A. Diminishing in one way and making up in the other in steamboats 
 and increasing in the barges, and while a crew of twenty men will man- 
 age four thousand tons of freight in the barges, it would require twice 
 that number of men a few years ago to manage a cargo of a thousand 
 tons. 
 
 Q. How do rates of freight compare between these two periods I 
 name ? Give a percentage ; I don't want you to itemize. 
 
 A. We have to guess at it. My impression is that rates of freight 
 are not very much different. I have known freight, between 1850 and 
 1860, carried from here to New Orleans at a lower rate than that even 
 carried now, and I know that they carried very much more. But the 
 various years the prices fluctuate so much, in consequence of the higher 
 or lower stages of the river, that I could not form a reliable opinion as 
 to whether they were higher between 1850 and 1860, or at the present 
 time. 
 
 Q. You were asked the question a while ago as to what effect you 
 thought the proper improvement of the Mississippi Eiver would have 
 upon this commerce on the river. 
 
 ' A. Tes, sir; I answered that I thought it would be reduced one-half 
 by what are believed to be good improvements. 
 
 Q. That is the effect upon freights; but I mean upon the commerce, 
 what increase of business would there be ? 
 
 A. That would be added indefinitely, as the country is just develop- 
 ing. We are producing five times as much as we were fifteen years ago. 
 
 Q. Would it affect foreign exportation or exports ? 
 
 A. Very largely, as the quantity would be very much increased, I 
 have no doubt, down the river, if the prices were ma'de uniform. We 
 are charging, for instance, from here to New Orleans 30 cents a hundred 
 pounds, and it not unfrequently goes to 50 cents. If the improvements 
 were made that are contemplated, I said that I thought the prices on an 
 average would be reduced one-half. 
 
 Atlanta, Ga., December 24, 1873. 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment. 
 
 Examination of Col. Bushrod W. Frobel : 
 Mr. Chairman. I wish to present to the committee a tabular report 
 from the Chamber of Commerce of the city of Atlanta, showing the 
 amount and value of farm products shipped through Chattanooga and 
 Dalton south, and to Atlanta, by the Western and Atlantic Eailroad. 
 
716 
 
 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
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TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 717 
 
 Also, table No. 2, being a report from the Chamber of Commerce, 
 showing the amount and value of various other products shipped by 
 the same way to Atlanta from the West. 
 
 Table 2.— Showing the amount and value of various products shipped via Chattanooga and 
 Dalton south, and to Atlanta, by the Western and Atlantio Railroad, 1872. 
 
 Prices given by Lonia Scofleld, President ; M. T. Castleberry ; Stephens & Plynn; Tourney, Stewart & 
 Beck ; T. M. Clarke & Co ; Mark Johnson ; L Ben Wilson. 
 
 Quantity. 
 
 Average. 
 
 Value at At- 
 lanta dur- 
 ing 1872. 
 
 Coal tons.. 
 
 Cotton bales.. 
 
 Furniture car-loads.. 
 
 Lime barrels.. 
 
 Lumber ; . car-loads . . 
 
 Irou, pig and scrap car-loads.. 
 
 Iron manufactures and machinery car-loads.'. 
 
 Salt . ...sacks.. 
 
 Slate car-load.. 
 
 Iron, railroad ,. car-loads.. 
 
 Miscellaneous freight *. .'tons.. 
 
 Total value at Atlanta during 1872 - 
 
 37, 872 
 16, 938 
 
 215 
 
 14, 526 
 
 73 
 
 714 
 
 193 
 
 58, 877 
 
 1 
 
 350 
 22,720 
 
 $7 50 
 
 17 00 
 
 1, 000 00 
 
 1 75 
 15 00 
 
 48 50 ton 
 1, 000 00 
 
 2 00 
 
 11 foot 
 86 00 
 
 $273, 040 
 
 1, 440, 530 
 
 215, 000 
 
 25, 420 
 
 4,827 
 
 277, 036 
 
 193, 000 
 
 167, 754 
 
 286 
 
 244, 800 
 
 2, 835, 857 
 
 Freight charges, G-reen Line rates, September 15, 1872. 
 
 Per 100 lbs. 
 
 Per ton. 
 
 From Saint Louis to Atlanta, Georgia- 
 Coal 
 
 Cotton 
 
 Furniture : 
 
 Lime 
 
 .Lumber — 
 
 'Iron, pig and scrap 
 
 Iron manufactures and machinery. 
 Salt . 
 
 Slate 
 
 Iron, railroad . 
 
 From Saint LouiB to Savannah- 
 Coal 
 
 Cotton 
 
 Furniture 
 
 Lime 
 
 Lumber 
 
 Iron, pig and scrap 
 
 Iron manufactures and machinery . 
 
 Salt 
 
 Slate 
 
 Iron, railroad 
 
 63 cts. 
 
 e4 cts. 
 
 $4 20 
 
 63 cts. 
 
 63 cts. 
 1£ cts. per ton 
 
 per mile. 
 63 cts. to $1 40 
 
 63 cts. 
 No rates. 
 H cts. per ton 
 
 per mile. 
 
 70 cts. 
 
 75 cts. 
 $4 20 
 
 70 cts. 
 
 70 cts. 
 1£ cts. per ton 
 
 per mile. 
 70 eta. to $1 40 
 
 70 cts. 
 No rates. 
 1J cts. per ton 
 
 per mile. 
 
 $12 60 
 16 80 
 84 00 
 12 60 
 12 60 
 10 24 
 
 12 60 to $28 00 
 12*60 
 
 10 24 
 
 14 00 
 
 15 no 
 84 00 
 14 00 
 14 00 
 14 40 
 
 14 00 to 28 00 
 14 00 
 
 Value of produce, Table 1 $25,914,281 
 
 Value of produce, Table 2 2,835,857 
 
 Articles classed as " miscellaneous " include everything not Bhipped by the car-load, such as 
 poultry, game, tobacco, butter, eggs, hams, cheese, tongues, manufactured articles, merchandise, 
 brandies, wines, teas, &c. ; averaging this at 25 cents per pound, would give, miscellaneous 
 freight 11,360,000 
 
 Total value - f - 
 
 Approved by Chamber of Commerce, November 18, 1873 : 
 
 W. G. WHIDBY, Secretary. „ 
 
 , 40,110,138 
 
 A. C. WYLY, Vice-President. 
 
 Also, table No. 3, showing the amount and value of the entire pro- 
 ducts exported from New Orleans, and the amount and value of same 
 products shipped to Atlanta for the home market. 
 
718 
 
 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOAE1X 
 
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 37 
 
 ■A'wqAi 
 
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 26, 079 
 
 Gallons. 
 1,694 
 
 •}B9qAi 
 
 Bushels. 
 708, 863 
 
 12, 510 
 
 •pnorao pnB 
 'Be^ddB '8ao^B}o<i 
 
 Barrels. 
 20, 740 
 
 Bushels. 
 16, 741 
 
 •s»bo 
 
 Bushels. 
 420, 699 
 
 34, 300 
 
 •dogng 
 ■ paB 9VNB0 J99g 
 
 Pounds. 
 5,904,000 
 
 Sailed. 
 ' *707, 200 
 
 •BSoq bait 
 
 Pounds. 
 10, 096, 000 
 
 Pork. 
 *248, 066 
 
 ■ABH 
 
 Bales. 
 99, 448 
 
 Tons' 
 334 
 
 •Jiiou 
 
 Barrels. 
 306, 656 
 
 163, 146 
 
 •ajoo 
 
 Bushels. 
 3, 325, 483 
 
 508, 945 
 
 'oa* j paB jCa^jBg 
 
 Bushels. 
 40, 258 
 
 33 
 
 •pjB| pnB aoOBg 
 
 Pounds. 
 114, 611, 379 
 
 4, 573, 371 
 
 
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 Railroa 
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 hipped fr 
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 281. Fr 
 exported 
 
 cattle s 
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 $25,914 
 articles 
 
 
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TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 719 
 
 The governor has requested me to present to the committee some 
 letters in relation to the iron interests of the State of Georgia from 
 various gentlemen conversant with the subject. They are as follows : 
 
 Rome, Ga., July 5, 1873. 
 
 Dear Sir : Your request for certain information, of the 30th ultimo, is received. I 
 will answer your interrogatories to the hest of my ability. 
 
 The coal in the Coosa Valley extends over a large area of country. It is of excellent 
 quality for any purpose, and easily mined. This coal-hearing region is about twenty- 
 two miles from Selma, Rome and Dalton Railroad, but very near to the Coosa River. 
 Its extent I cannot tell, because I do not believe it has ever been thoroughly explored. 
 
 The deposits of iron-ore are enormous, and are of the variety known as red hematite 
 or fossiliferous, and this region extends from Brierfleld, Ala., to Chattanooga, Tenn., 
 and from Gadsden, Ala., tqjlinggold, Ga., andin some places are contiguous to the coal 
 and limestone regions. The quantity of brown hematite iron-ore along tne line of the 
 Selma, Rome and Dalton Railroad is so abundant that I do not think it can ever be 
 exhausted, and from it iron is manufactured which is of such a superior quality that 
 for many purposes it is used in preference to any other iron that can be procured in the 
 whole country. The average yield of pure metallic iron from any of the above-named 
 ores is over 50 per cent. 
 
 The average Cost of manufacturing pig-iron at the furnaces here is $18 per ton, 
 and its value at the furnace is from $45 to $52 per ton, p according to its quality, or 
 whether it is hot orcold blast iron. The market for this iron (after supplying the 
 home demand) is Louisville, Saint Louis, Cincinnati, Charleston, Philadelphia, Rich- 
 mond, and New York. 
 
 Railroad is the only means of transportation, except for a short distance, on the 
 Coosa River from one or two furnaces, and the average cost on railroad for freight is 
 about $10 per ton. 
 
 I think the principal drawback to the full development of our iron interests is the 
 excessive freight charges which we are compelled to pay over the different railroads, 
 not only on the pig and manufactured iron, but on everything which we are obliged to 
 get from a distance to build our furnaces and shops. Another drawback is that our 
 people do not appreciate the value of furnaces and.manufactories, and it has only been 
 recently known to them that they had such an abundance of minerals in their lands; 
 and, again, they are too poor to make such investments as are required to make the 
 manufacture of iron a success, together with a want of appreciation of skilled labor to 
 manufacture anything else to any extent ; and if their pecuniary condition was better, 
 they would naturally hesitate to make large investments in any business With which 
 they are not thoroughly familiar. There are but few iron furnaces or manufactories 
 in Georgia or Alabama, except those owned almost wholly by capitalists from other 
 sections. 
 
 I have above answered as far as I can the questions propounded, and will be pleased 
 to answer any further questions that will aid you in the great enterprise you are so 
 heartily encouraging. 
 
 I have the honor to be, sir, yours, very respectfully, 
 
 JAS. NOBLE, Sis. 
 
 Hon. J. M. Smith, 
 
 Governor of Georgia. 
 
 Office of Rome Railroad Company, 
 
 Some, Ga., July 9, 1873. 
 Dear Sir : Your esteemed favor of 30th ultimo received on my return to-day from 
 the Cornwall Irou Works, where I have been for the past week. I have been living 
 here for the last twenty-five years, and have participated in most of the improvements 
 going on during that time in developing.this section of country, which is still com- 
 paratively new, especially when we speak of the coal and iron interest. Previous to the 
 late war but little attention was paid to that interest, being mostly agriculture. In 
 1848 the railroad from-Kingston to Rome, twenty miles, was completed, and a steam- 
 boat built and run, in connection with this /Rome road, on the Coosa River, as far 
 down the river as to Greenspbrt, at the head of the Ten Island Shoals, one hundred and 
 seventy-six miles into Alabama by water, and eighty miles by land through a new 
 country. Being frequently on the boat, I became familiar with the country, and I recol- 
 lect very well the largest cotton-planter on the river was a Colonel Smith, and he made 
 nine bales of cotton, but the navigation of the river proved a success, and the country 
 in a few years became opened out and settled up, the lands being very rich and well 
 adapted to cotton, as well as corn, wheat, &c. In a few years we had to put on 
 more boats, and there were farms on the river producing and shipping from one to 
 two hundred and fifty bales of cotton, all of which found its market this way. Since 
 
720 TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOAED. 
 
 the war there has not been so much cotton made on this valley, but still the product 
 of those farms is one of our main supports for the city of Eonie, and we continue to 
 run steamboats regularly the year round, and transport the United States mails down 
 
 and back twice a week. > .„-,-,, ± t 1 *. j 
 
 Since the war the labor on this river has been more diversified and less cotton planted. 
 
 The development of the iron was commenced down the river before the war, and aban- 
 doned during the war, furnaces having been destroyed by the Federal Army, but they have 
 been rebuilt and are now rebuilding. This, of course, takes a great deal 01 the labor 
 from agriculture, and creates a greater demand for the cenals ; consequently less cottoD 
 is planted. The Coosa Eiver ten miles below Eome, running westward, comes to spurs of 
 Lookout Mountain, and from that bears a little south of west a distance of about 
 twenty miles to where the mountain at times becomes very near, all the way to Greens- 
 port, where the river makes through, forming rapids whichare uhnaVigable, and boats 
 can't go farther down. The iron-ore of the best fossil ore aud brown hematite makes 
 its appearance from ten miles below Koine to Gadsden, a distance of fifty miles by land, 
 in any quantity and convenient for mining. The coal is bituminous, works well in 
 blacksmith-shops, and lies near to the top of the mountain, in veins varying from 12 
 to 36 inches in thickness ; and a distance of three to eight miles from the river there 
 seem to be three veins or strata of coal in this mountain, as it has been discovered 
 cropping out iu those gorges of the mountain, first near the top, again 100 feet below, 
 and again a distance of 150 to 200 feet below the first, and it seems to be abundant all 
 over and through the mountain. I have heard of much thicker and larger veins of coal 
 on the mountain, but I speak above of what I have seen myself. A great many, and-in- 
 deed a large portion, of those coal-lands are public or Government lands. 
 
 I first gave you my observation of the Coosa Valley, which was developed by and 
 brought into notice by the navigation of steamboats ; otherwise it would have been 
 to-day waste, as it was when I, as one of a company, put steamboats on the river. The 
 coal and iron will lie there until the transportation is placed there for its removal. 
 Twenty-three years ago Major Cooper, of the Etowah Iron Works, in Bartow County, 
 had his coal transported up the Coosa Eiver from those same coal-beds to Eome, and 
 from there by railroad to Etowah ; but when the mines were opened above Chatta- 
 nooga, he found it cheaper to get his coal there, on account of transportation. Cooper 
 spoke of being well pleased with the coal. 
 
 'Wo, in making pig-iron down the Coosa Eiver, twenty-eight milesbelow this place, use 
 charcoal exclusively as yet, and that is an expensive iron, as you no doubt are aware, 
 but a very superior iron. Before the war we made iron down there at a cost of $15 
 per ton . Then the timber for coaling was con venient, and the coal short hauls ; now 
 it requires a great deal more teaming, and the expense of labor is so much increased that 
 I consider every ton of iron made at Cornwall now costs $23 to $30 per ton. Then, 
 however, our iron was worth $20 to $22 per ton in Eome, now it has ready sale at $00 
 to $53 here. You will see, therefore, money in it at present prices. 
 
 A road penetrating into those coal-fields, no telling the number of furnaces would 
 build up along the line ; in fact, I consider the iron sufficient to supply the building 
 of a furnace for every half mile on the road for fifty miles. Transportation is all 
 that is needed to build up and develop one of the richest countries for minerals any- 
 where to be found. The valley lands are rich and productive ; the mountains worthless 
 for cultivation, fine climate, and good water. To show you the plentifulness of corn 
 made there to supply those furnaces, at the works last week, of parties coming in to 
 sell corn, one had 1,000 bushels, within one and one-half miles of the furnace, of his last 
 year's crop, to sell, and another farmer, three miles off from furnace, proposed to sell 
 1,200 bushels corn. I mention this to show you what a desirable country to develop 
 mining and manufacturing interests. 
 
 Excuse the length of my communication, written in great'haste, and written from my 
 own experience and observation causes it always to be .an interesting subject, as I 
 have been, and am now, interested in most of these enterprises. 
 
 I have the honor to remain your excellency's humble servant, 
 
 WADE S. COTHEAN. 
 His Excellency J. M. Smith, 
 
 Governor of Georgia, Atlanta. 
 
 Kingston, Ga., AuguM 29, 1873. 
 Deak Sip. : I regret that occupations requiring a constant absence from home will 
 prevent my answering as fully as I would desire your excellency's inquiries in regard 
 to the coal and iron of northwest Georgia and Alabama. Gentlemen in Eome have 
 agreed to furnish information in regard to the coal and iron west of that city in 
 Georgia and Alabama. My remarks will therefore be confined wholly to northwest 
 Georgia. 
 
 COAL. 
 
 The coal in Georgia is found only in Lookout Mountain, the carboniferous formation 
 not extending east of it. The Lookout coal-field in Georgia is about forty miles long 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 721 
 
 and varies from five to twelve miles in width. The mountain extends from Chatta- 
 nooga, in Tennessee, to the Coosa River, at Gadsden, in Alabama, upwards of eighty 
 miles. I do not know the number of coal-seams in the mountain, but it is great. In 
 some portions of the mountain both the upper and lower carboniferous formations ex- 
 ist. In tboso instances the number of seams is of course increased. I have seen the 
 coal on the surface exposed by the plough, or on the roots of trees which have been 
 blown down, and also at the base of the mountain, more than 1,000 feet below the 
 plateau above. 
 
 The seams which have been exposed vary in thickness from 10 inches to 7 feet. 
 The quality of the coal is not surpassed by any bituminous coals of the United States. 
 This statement is based both upon ample practical test and by scientific analysis twice 
 Tiy eminent chemists in Philadelphia. It will be observed that this coal formation 
 runs down to the very bank of the Coosa River, whjcb is a material portion of the pro- 
 posed water-route from the west to the Atlantic. The whole of this vast body of coal 
 is now lying imprisoned by sandstone walls, and therefore is useless to man. The pro- 
 posed canal will liberate it by affording transportation, and give cheap fuel to thou- 
 sands who now suffer for want of it. 
 
 It would be difficult to give upon paper an adequate conception of the extent and 
 value of the iron-ore in northwest Georgia within easy reach of the proposed canal. 
 If we take a given distance of, say, thirty miles on either side of the canal, the iron-ore 
 of the following counties would be rendered available, viz : Floyd', Chattooga, Bar- 
 tow, Cherokee, Polk, and Paulding. Short lines of railway would bring in as many 
 more counties as tributaries in iron to the canal. 
 
 The quantity of this ore cannot be exaggerated. I have literally passed over acres 
 of land in which in walking it was difficult to avoid stepping upon iron-ore. Pennsyl- 
 vania iron men who have visited this section have been contused by the amount and 
 variety of the ore, it being so different from the small scale of the ore-beds with which 
 they have been previously familiar. As an illustration, an unbroken ridge, called 
 "Shinbone," extends along the eastern base of Lookout Mountain for more than eighty 
 miles. This ridge is also for the whole distance an unbroken vein of iron-ore. It is 
 never more than a mile from the base of Lookoul, Mountain, in which the coal is found. 
 For this whole distance coal, iron-ore, sandstone, fire-clay, limestone, and endless 
 forests are in juxtaposition. Can there be a more favorable combination for the man- 
 ufacture of iron ? But this affluence of mineral stores is at present useless ; there is no 
 transportation. Oue of the counties above mentioned, Chattooga, is literally girt by 
 walls of iron-ore. Pigeon Mountain on the north, Taylor's ridge on the east, Shinbone 
 ridge on the west, and Dirt Sellers' Mountain on the south, and yet there is not an iron 
 furnace in the county — capital and transportation are wanting. 
 
 For twenty or thirty miles east of Lookout Mountain, during its whole length, the 
 iron-ore is entirely sedimentary and fossiliferous. For certain purposes it is a very 
 valuable ore. I saw a train of nineteen cars loaded with this ore leave Birmingham, 
 in Alabama, more than one hundred and fifty miles below Chattanooga, for some point 
 in the State of Indiana. 
 
 East of Taylor's Ridge and south of the Etowah River every variety of ore is found 
 for the manufacture of iron aud steel. It would be impossible to specify the ore-beds 
 in these counties. 
 
 Bartow and Floyd counties have railroad transportation. The iron interest has be- 
 gun to be developed in them. In Floyd, besides a rolling-mill and nail-factory, there are 
 quite a number of furnaces in full blast. In Bartow the number of furnaces is perhaps 
 equally great. The iron interest in this county, Bartow, is comparatively new. Yet 
 the gross annual sales of iron, lime, lumber, manganese, and hydraulic cement in this 
 county alone will amount to more than $1,000,000, independent of agricultural products. 
 The iron interest is in its infancy. Many beds of ore are still untouched. The most 
 favorable place for the manufacture of iron is lying idle. That place has been well 
 known as Cooper Iron Works, from which shot, shell, and cannon were furnished to 
 the confederacy. That place is so remarkable that it deserves more than a passing 
 notice. I quote from a report made to the Georgia legislature in 1860 : " Etowah River 
 passes through the premises above five miles, with a succession of shoals, affording an 
 aggregate fall of 120 feet in that distance, and presents six different localities, each 
 with a fall of 20 feet. The river is 600 feet wide, never rises to materially overflow its 
 hanus, and is an unfailing stream." The iron-ore is abundant, and of the best quality 
 of brown hematites. The proposed canal, if I am correctly informed, would leave the 
 Etowah River near the base of these falls. It would afford cheap coal, and thus greatly 
 reduce the cost of iron manufacture at this remarkable locality. 
 
 Give to northwest Georgia water transportation to the sea, and it will be a very 
 short time before the iron-crop of Georgia will exceed in value its cotton-crop. The 
 freight on pig-iron by rail from this county, Bartow, to New Tork, is $10.50 per ton; 
 
 46 T S 
 
722 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 to Louisville, $5.60 ; and to Cincinnati, $6.92. Even at these high rates of freight, a 
 large proportion of our pig-iron is shipped to the North. The cost of making iron with 
 charcoal ranges, I am informed, at from $18 to $22 per ton. The value of the pig-iion 
 delivered at the railway depot is about an average of $40 per ton. 
 
 I have thus imperfectly replied to the inquiries contained in the letter ot your excel- 
 lency concerning the coal and iron of northwest Georgia. 
 
 There are other products of this section which are of importance, and some ot -which, 
 are now prohibited bv railroad freights. . , 
 
 Manganese of good quality is found in considerable quantity in this county, and is 
 regularly mined and shipped. . 
 
 An excellent article of hydraulic cement is made near Kingston, in Bartow County. 
 There is a peculiarity about this cement which makes it of importance to the Govern- 
 ment in sea-coast constructions. It has been found that the sea air disintegrates the 
 mortar made with the Eosendale cement, on account of the large proportion of iron 
 which it contains. This cement, contains a small proportion of irou, being nearly 
 white in color. 1 The houses on the battery in Charleston were rough-cast with this 
 cement more then fifteen years ago. The work is still perfect, though the salt spray 
 has been dashing against them all the time. This fact attracted the attention of the 
 civil engineers at Fort Sumter and elsewhere before the war ; but the high rate of 
 railway freight prohibited the use of this cement. 
 
 The slate-beds of Polk County are a subject of material interest. The slate is in 
 great cliffs. It is as free from iron and lime and is as easily worked as the Welsh slate. 
 A short railway of twenty miles connects these slate-beds with the Western and At- 
 liintic Railroad, through which it is now shipped freely to Saint Louis, Louisville, and 
 Cincinnati. The proposed canal would cheapen roofing, both West and South, and give 
 increased security against loss by fire. 
 
 Railway freights are a prohibition against the use of lime as a fertilizer. The appli- 
 cation of lime is essential to the amelioration of soils which are destitute of it. . This 
 destitution exists in the primary formation, including nearly the whole of Middle Geor- 
 gia. 
 
 The quantity of excellent limestone in northwest Georgia is inexhaustible. The 
 proposed canal would enable the cotton-planters within ten miles of its line to use this 
 valuable fertilizer with economy, and thus materially increase the cotton-crop. 
 
 The soil of the section of northwest Georgia, through which the canal would pass, 
 is of the best quality of blue limestone land. Its comparative value may be inferred 
 when it is stated that, while the lands of the cotton-belt may be bought at from $5 to 
 410 per acre, our best farms in this section will command $50 to $75 per acre. Although 
 ihe cereals and the grasses succeed perfectly, cotton is also grown with complete success. 
 The material benefit of the proposed canal to the people of the South and West 
 would be incalculably great. But its construction would be followed by still greater 
 benefits. These would be national. I do not refer to the cheap transportation of ord- 
 nance and military stores in time of war, but to its social and political results. It 
 would tend to bind the sections of country through which it passed more closely to- 
 gether. There are several instrumentalities by which people are said to be bound to- 
 gether. Some of these are ropes of sand, as the popularity of favorite leaders, the pre- 
 valence of ephemeral political dogmas, the strength of party ties, &c. 
 
 Eailroad lines, long drawn out, are said to bind the. sections in their route with 
 bands of iron. But time, the atmosphere, and wear and tear destroy these bands, and 
 they must be replaced. 
 
 It might seem a solecism to say that, in certain circumstances, water is a stronger 
 bond than iron. The incoherence of its drops, which appears to be an element of 
 weakness, on the contrary is an element both of utility and strength. It evades the 
 tooth of time. It is incapable of rust. In motion, by its own law it replaces itself. In 
 our mild climate the icy king is powerless over it. 
 
 How much the determination of the Western people, that the mouth of the Missis- 
 sippi should never belong to a foreign people, had to do with the termination of the war 
 it is impossible to say. But it is on all hands now conceded that the people who live 
 upou its banks and the banks of its tributaries will live under one government ; and 
 when the proposed great artificial highway of water between the West and South is 
 completed, it will also be conceded that the people who live upon or near its banks, 
 while the water flows or seeks its level, will be one people. 
 
 Such enterprises in their consummation are, among the victories of peace, more potent 
 and glorious than those of war. 
 
 Your excellency will allow an humble citizen to offer his hearty congratulations 
 upon the leading part whioh you have taken in the inception of this material work. 
 
 It has been to the writer a subject of profound regret that, while our whole social 
 system has been convulsed ; while our, pressing want has been for food and raiment ; 
 while, in thenew order of things, the relations of capital and labor remained unadjusted; 
 while domestic chaos reigned, our leading men, for the most part, have preferred to de- 
 vote their great talents to the discussion of abstract questions in Government, rather 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 723 
 
 than the pressing earnest practical interests of the emergency. When we have asked 
 for bread, they have given us, not a stone, but the dry bones of that which was, but is 
 not. 
 
 Your excellency has chosen to concentrate your powers upon the great practical and 
 pressing interestsof the people over whom you preside. We are glad of it, and we are 
 not alone in this appreciation. I have learned that the people ofthe West and North- 
 west regard with honor the man who has boldly seized the helm of this vast enterprise, 
 and who, while he Beeks the welfare of his constituency, will in one and the same act 
 liberate them from the yoke of a cruel monopoly. 
 
 I have the honor to be your excellency's obedient servant, 
 
 C. W. HOWARD. 
 His Excellency Governor Smith, 
 
 Atlanta, Georgia. 
 
 I also present to the committee the tables containing the amonnt and 
 value of the farms and property of every kind and the trade on the 
 Tennessee River, and other rivers immediately connected with the pro- 
 posed work. 
 
 Note. — The accompanying tables show the population and productions of the coun- 
 ties lying immediately on and contiguous to the rivers (and their tributaries) that 
 form a portion of the proposed route of the Atlantic and Great Western Canal, and 
 to the canal itself. The figures are taken from the United States census for 1870. 
 
 The calculation includes the tributaries of the main rivers, inasmuch as they are all 
 now navigable, or can be made so at a very small cost, and will be important feeders 
 to the canal. Many of these tributaries penetrate regions that are capable of great de- 
 velopment, but now languish for want of facilities for transportation. Some idea may 
 be form ed by comparing the improved with the unimproved lands, the acres df unim- 
 proved lands being nearly double the improved lands. 
 
 In addition to the productions enumerated, the following may be given for all the 
 counties included in the tables : 
 
 Product of orchards and market gardens $733,883 
 
 Product of forests 735,306 
 
 Rye, bushels, 404,235 „ 363,815 
 
 Barley, bushels, 23,540 ».- 21,186 
 
 Rice, 10,057,325 pounds..: 804,586 
 
 Cheese, 67, 820 13,564 
 
 Sugar, 710 hogsheads 71,000 
 
 Total 2,743,340 
 
 Besides — 
 
 Milk sold, gallons 308,525 
 
 Hemp, tons 655 
 
 Flax, pounds 130,750 
 
 Maple sugar, pounds - 228,996 
 
 Maple molasses, gallons 184,720 
 
 Bees-wax, pounds 61, 113 
 
 Honey, gallons 1,223,457 
 
 From these figures we find that there will be directly affected by this work a — 
 
 Population of - ■ 1,966,178 
 
 Laud improved, acres 14,509,149 
 
 Laud unimproved, acres - -- 23,727,774 
 
 Value of improved lands and products of farms $356, 547, 307 
 
 Besides directly and indirectly affecting cotton, whose annual value at present prioes 
 is $214,792,040, if the value of property and products in the section through which this 
 work passes, and indirectly affected by it, were included, together with that along the 
 Saint John's and other rivers of Florida, the mines of Georgia, South Carolina, North. 
 Carolina and Alabama, it would swell the sum to four or five times the amount 
 named. 'The amount of cotton affected by it equals' nearly, our entire export of that 
 article, the export of all cotton, raw and manufactured, in 1871, being $220,828,644. 
 
724 
 
 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
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TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
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 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
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TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
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 I will now state to the committee that in discussing this question I 
 shall leave the details of the physical features of the work more to the 
 United States engineer who made the survey, and I shall confine my- 
 self to the effect which it will have upon the trade and interest of the 
 Southern States and of the rest of the Union, so far as this work is 
 concerned — its importance to the country at large. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Question. You will not present the geography and topography of the 
 whole line ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; the engineer will be here himself, and I think he 
 can do it much more satisfactorily than I. 
 
 The question of transportation is of such vast importance to the 
 whole country that I deem it unnecessary to apologize for trespassing 
 on your time. In this question will be found the solution of the grand 
 problem of commercial prosperity — a problem of such vital importance 
 that it has not only impressed itself upon the public mind, but claims 
 the first and most earnest care of the legislator and statesman. I think 
 we hazard nothing at the outstart in accepting the fact that water af- 
 fords the cheapest means for moving the heavy products of the com- 
 mercial world. Experiments upon this point have been so well attested 
 that to doubt would be the enactment of the folly of doubting one's 
 own senses ; and I am satisfied that there will be no difficulty in prov- 
 ing that transportation by water is not an exploded idea ; that canals 
 have not fallen into disuse or become obsolete ;. but, on the contrary, 
 that their multiplication is to-day the great need of the country, and 
 the main hope for present and future prosperity. 
 
 It is true that for a time the slow, plodding canal-boat was in a meas- 
 ure obscured by its more pretentious rival, the railroad. But experience 
 teaches that that plodding boat, whose unpretentious movements along 
 the Erie Canal scarce attracts anything better from the passer-by than 
 a sneer, carries more freight than the longest railroad train, and is in 
 reality doing more for the advancement of the great industries of the 
 country than all the trunk-lines from the Saint Lawrence to the Po- 
 tomac. 
 
 If it be true that " one well-attested experiment is worth ten thousand 
 untried theories," we have the experiment here, and the result also ; and 
 the great change which the public mind is undergoing on this subject 
 attests the fact that it has not viewed these results with indifference. 
 
 If there is any part of the world that could discard canals and rely 
 solely upon railroads, it would be the British islands and France, be- 
 cause they are surrounded by water, and from the interior to a sea-port 
 is comparatively a very short distance. But yet we find an aggregate 
 of about twelve thousand miles of canal and improved navigation in 
 these two kingdoms, whose territory combined does not greatly exceed 
 that of the four cotton States of the Atlantic sea-board. Yet all these 
 canals find profitable employment, and more extensive works of the 
 kind are contemplated, when in England it is said no acre of land is 
 now distant more than fifteen miles from navigable water. 
 
 The canals of China and Holland are historical, while the recent con- 
 nection of the Danube and the Rhine by canal has transferred the 
 grainery of western Europe from the United States to v the Russian 
 Black Sea provinces. This fact presents a serious matter for our con- 
 sideration, and furnishes the reason why the foreign grain trade of this 
 country has so suddenly and so disastrously fallen off. 
 
 A very persistent effort has been made to impress the public with the 
 
 47 T S 
 
738 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 idea that railroads have superseded all other kinds of transportation. 
 This for a time had its effect. But experience has dissipated the fallacy, 
 and we are again coming back to the truth. 
 
 The failure of some few canals which were badly planned, illy con- 
 structed, or abandoned before completion, has been seized upon and 
 trumpeted over the land as evidence that the system is inadequate, and 
 this has furnished the text for those Atlantic sea-ports where nature 
 renders water communication with the West impossible. 
 
 No efforts have been spared to make converts to these groundless 
 assertions. If, however, we take the failures of railroads as financial 
 operations— and that is possibly the true test — we find the per cent, ex- 
 ceeds that of canals, and this fact anybody can ascertain who takes the 
 trouble to inquire. 
 
 Another argument against water lines is, that since the introduction 
 of railroads the navigation of many rivers, and especially in the South, 
 has been abandoned. This is true and the cause palpable. The export 
 of the South is almost exclusively cotton. This is in most cases raised 
 upon borrowed capital, in the form of provisions and commercial 
 manures, upon which the producer pays an average of about 2$ per 
 cent, a month. The cotton-belt is near the sea-board, making the dif- 
 ference between the two modes of transportation small, and especially 
 when compared with the 2J per cent, interest ; consequently the pro- 
 ducer hurries his crop to market by the speediest mode, and this takes the 
 major portion of the cotton out of the country in a month or so. To 
 navigate these rivers successfully, boats must be built for the purpose; 
 and these boats, after the cotton-crop is removed, would be without 
 any kind of employment whatever. Had we the canal, however, the 
 light-draught vessels used upon it could ply upon our rivers, move the 
 crops, distribute supplies, and do the carrying at infinitely less cost 
 than now, returning to their regular trade on the canal when their 
 services were no longer needed. 
 
 Hence you see that it is possible, with a great many miles of naviga- 
 ble water, for us to be reduced to the most costly mode of transporta- 
 tion, if we except the common road-wagon. And this will furnish the 
 reason why we pay from one to two dollars a bushel for corn and $12 
 a barrel for flour when corn is burned in Iowa for fuel and thousands 
 of bushels of wheat remain wasting in that and other States, because it 
 cannot find a way sufficiently cheap to market. This is why we import 
 iron while our hills abound with the ore. It costs too much to get the 
 food to the ore and the product of the ore away from the mines. We 
 suffer, and the West suffers with us. 
 
 Pour of the cotton States plant six millions of acres in food-crops; 
 employ half their labor and capital in cultivating corn and wheat. This 
 deprives the West of a market for fifty millions of bushels of grain, 
 which is left worthless upon the hands of the producer. 
 
 At the same time it enhances the price of cotton, imposing additional 
 hardship upon the agricultural laborer, whose scanty earnings will scarce 
 permit him at present prices to indulge in the luxury of a shirt ; and 
 all this due to the fact that we have no means for the interchange of 
 our respective products cheaply. 
 
 It is true we have railroads, and have had them for a great many 
 years, but the fact still stares us in the face that although our sea-port's 
 are less than one thousand miles from the great center of trade, Saint 
 Louis, and a great deal nearer than New York is, still not one dollar's 
 worth of foreign goods finds its way from Savannah to Saint Louis, 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 739 
 
 nor does a single bushel of grain pass out of the country in that direc- 
 tion. 
 
 Now, it may be asked, why does all the western grain go to New York 
 for export ? And why does the West import through New York ? Why 
 is it that the circuitous route by the lakes drains the Mississippi itself 
 of its trade ? Why do we import iron ? Why does the South plant 
 millions of acres in corn, and raise that product at an average cost of 
 94 cents per bushel, while cotton was worth 20 cents per pound, and 
 corn in Missouri and Iowa some 10 cents per bushel "? Why is it that 
 New York City has become the commercial center of the western conti- 
 nent % Why is it that portion of the Northwest along the great lakes 
 has developed so rapidly that it has become the wonder of the world 1 
 That all that portion even beyond the Mississippi which finds an outlet 
 through the lakes should have outstripped all that other portion south 
 of the latitude of the Ohio ? 
 
 There is a reason for this, and the true reason is very different from 
 the one usually assigned for it. Some say that the growth of New York 
 is due to its harbor. Such a reason can only excite a smile with those 
 who reflect that there are many harbors in the world just as good as 
 New York harbor, but which' have never built cities, because it requires 
 something beside a harbor to do that. On the contrary we have a no- 
 table example at hand. The mouth of the Mississippi is so obstructed 
 by mud and sand-bars that it is no unusual thing for a vessel to stick 
 fast for days, unable to get in or out, and yet .New Orleans for years 
 controlled, in value, the major portion of the export and import trade of 
 the country. 
 
 Another class, who profess to be highly scientific, have a great deal 
 to say about natural channels of commerce and emigration, and certain 
 parallels of latitude along which they flow just as water runs down hill. 
 This may be all very well, but it does not satisfy the minds of practical 
 men. They want something more reconcilable with the dictates of com- 
 mon sense. They know that there are no natural channels of either 
 trade or emigration any more than there are natural railroads, or ships, 
 or steamboats. 
 
 Trade goes where it can be made most profitable and the emigrant 
 where he can find the best home and the largest remuneration for his 
 labor. The trade and the emigrant both seek the West, and go by that 
 route which will take them cheapest; or else why don't they land at 
 Halifax, or Portland, or Boston, instead of passing by these places and 
 going to New York % The answer may be summed up in two words, 
 " cheap transportation," and this furnishes the key to the mystery. 
 
 Experience establishes the fact that the ordinary road-wagon is the 
 most expensive mode of transportation in common use ; the next rail- 
 roads, while water is the cheapest, although it is, perhaps, a little more 
 difficult to get at the precise difference of cost between them. The late 
 Commodore Matthew F. Maury gives the difference as follows : Railroad 
 transportation, 500 per cent, cheaper than by wagon ; by free canal, 600 
 per cent, cheaper than by railroad ; and river, 750 per cent, cheaper 
 than rail, and this estimate is based upon an actual comparison between 
 lines operated in different parts of the country. 
 
 Recent experiments on the Erie Canal show that a ton of freight can 
 be carried over that line in the old horse-boats at 5£ mills per mile, in- 
 cluding the State-tolls. The same authority* states that it is possible, 
 under the most favorable circumstances, to transport a ton of freight 
 over a road like the New York Central, with grades not exceeding 20 
 
 * Report Board Special Commissioners, 1872. 
 
740 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 feet per mile, for 9J mills per ton. This still leaves a difference of 
 nearly 100 per cent, in favor of the canal; but when we bear in mina 
 the many conditions involved in this reduction of railroad ireignts to 
 9i mills, we will be satisfied that the actual per cent, of difference must; 
 be still greater. But the same experiments demonstrate the feasibility 
 of using steam as a motive-power on canals, and the first application on 
 the Erie Ganal has resulted in a reduction of 65 per cent, on the present 
 cost of transportation, making the actual difference between the canal 
 and this railroad possibility something over 400 per cent. 
 
 Competition cannot alter these figures, nor can legislative enactments 
 change them. They must remain as now until some mode of operating 
 railroads at less expense be found. And this would no doubt apply to 
 
 The people of the West understand this question of water transpor- 
 tation very well, and the people of the South are beginning to wake up 
 to the fact that the development of their great interests requires a freer 
 intercourse with their brethren of the West. Now the question of ac-. 
 complishing this presents itself. We have railroads between the sec- 
 tions, and yet the people of Iowa burn their corn, while the coal and 
 iron and manufacturing interests of this State suffer for lack of cheaper 
 food. Is anybody prepared to say, with, these facts before them, that 
 our present system is adequate to our wants ? That we should be con- 
 tent to pay $1 for 10 or 15 cents' worth of corn *? Or that the western 
 farmer should be satisfied, out of $1 paid for a bushel of corn, with 10 
 cents as the reward of his labor 1 For fifty years or more the attention 
 of the West, and indeed of all thinking men, has been turned to this 
 subject, and a feasible route for an unobstructed canal sought for from 
 our northern frontier to the southern boundary of Virginia. These sur- 
 veys have had no practical result as yet, except the Erie Canal, and to 
 this work I will briefly refer, if only to show that, frozen as it is five 
 months in the year, and operated the other seven months by the 
 slow process of horse-power, it yet competes successfully with every 
 great trunk-line railroad north of the Potomac, and as a freight-, 
 carrier is superior to them all. 'The canal is three hundred and sixty- 
 three miles long and cost $38,977,831.16, including improvements 
 and enlargements. In 1862 the whole sum expended upon this work, 
 with interest, amounted to $52,491,915.74, while the gross receipts 
 from tolls during the same period (about thirty years) amounted to 
 $71,783,676.65. Deducting expenses, $12,518,860.03, there remained a 
 net profit of $59,264,812.62, a sum sufficient to pay the entire cost of 
 construction, with interest, and leave a balance of nearly $7,000,000. 
 Since then the earnings of the canal have been about $40,000,000 more. 
 It appears from the report of the State engineer that but little more 
 than one-sixth of the gross earnings was required to pay all expenses, 
 while the balance, or five-sixths, was net gain, and this included the 
 period when the canal was in an unfinished condition, when the cost ot 
 repairs was greater and the receipts less. • • 
 
 We have glanced at the canal as a mere investment; now let us see 
 what it has contributed to the great interests of the country. In 1820 
 the exports of New York amounted to $11,769,511 ; Philadelphia, 
 $5,743,549. The population of New York was 123,706 ; Philadelphia, 
 137,097. In 1830, five years after the opening of the Erie Canal, the im- 
 ports of New York amounted to $38,556,004 ; Philadelphia, $9,525,893 ; 
 the exports of New York to $17,666,624 ; Philadelphia, $4,291,793. The 
 population of New York had increased to 203,007, Philadelphia to 186,961. 
 In 1840 New York imported $60;000,000 ; Philadelphia, $8,000,000. New 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 741 
 
 York exported $32,000,000 ; Philadelphia, $6,000,000. The population of 
 New York was 312,712; Philadelphia, 258,832. In 1850 New York im- 
 ported $116,000,000; Philadelphia, $12,000,000. New York exported 
 $47,000,000; Philadelphia, $4,000,000. The population of New York 
 was 515,304; Philadelphia, 409,353. In 1871 New York imported 
 8357,909,000; Philadelphia. $17,728,000". New York exported 
 $282,530,000; Philadelphia, $17,903,000. The amount exported by 
 New York included about two-thirds of all the breadstuff's sent abroad, 
 and this the product of the West. The increased export of Philadel- 
 phia consisted principally of coal-oil, which found its nearest market in 
 that city. 
 
 It would be very difficult to account for this wonderful difference of 
 increase if we had not the report of \the New York canals at hand, 
 which shows that the tolls on the Erie Canal increased during the 
 period specified from $5,424, the first year, to $4,246,563 in 1868. In 
 1837 the value of tonnage passing through the canal was $55,809,288 ; 
 in 1868 it was $305,301,929, an increase of nearly 600 per cent. From 
 the same reports we learn that the canal annually transports 40 per 
 cent, more of freight in tons than the Erie and Central Railroads com- 
 bined, and these roads' comprise to a very great extent the railroad 
 system of the State. 
 
 I do not think that anybody with these facts before them will deny 
 that the prosperity of New York is, in a great measure, due to the Erie 
 Canal. And especially when we remember that had the trade which 
 sought New York over the Erie Canal in 1869, for instance, gone by rail 
 to Philadelphia, its transportation would have cost the producer about 
 $46,000,000, instead of $7,666,000. Nor has its effect upon the whole 
 country tributary to the great lakes been less marked. In twenty years, 
 according to the report of the Superintendent of the Census, the produc- 
 tion of grain in the eight great food-producing States has been increased 
 fourfold ; the number of acres cultivated has been doubled in ten years, 
 and the price of produce in some instances quadrupled ; and all this 
 wonderful development the result of cheap transportation due to the 
 construction of the Erie Canal. 
 
 Before the opening of this canal it cost $100 to carry a ton of freight 
 from Buffalo to New York. This was equal to four bushels of corn or 
 two bushels of wheat to take one bushel to market. The opening of the 
 canal at once reduced freight to $10 per ton, and this has since been 
 reduced to $3 per ton, so that everybody who was so fortunate as to live 
 within reach of this canal at once realized about $97 additional upon 
 every ton of produce shipped to market. Is it necessary for me to give 
 any other reason for the wonderful prosperity of this section ? And here 
 upon the ground where canals have been in use longest we find their 
 importance best appreciated and constant demands made for the con- 
 struction of others. 
 
 There is one other argument against canals, to which I will briefly 
 allude, and that is "In this fast age they are too slow." "The age will 
 not tolerate that which is slow;" and hence corn, and bacon, and lime, 
 and coal, and iron, and lumber, must be moved "at lightning speed" or 
 else the interests of trade will suffer. This, I think, is about the gist of 
 the argument. Now we ask, why ? We can conceive that articles of 
 a perishable nature would seek quick transportation, and that the 
 traveling public would do likewise. That the trader would send his 
 costly goods, those of great value and of little bulk, by express. He 
 would do that to save interest, an item of importance in such cases. 
 But whv he should ship corn, and things of a like nature, bulky and 
 
742 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 of little value, by express is not so clear. Let us inquire a little. The 
 principal object obtained by quick transit is time, and time here repre- 
 sents the interest on the money invested in the article to be moved. 
 Now let us make a practical application of this. The average time 
 consumed by horse-boats, heavily freighted, between Buffalo and iroy 
 is ten davs: the time of through-freight trains on the New York Cen- 
 tral Bailfoad, two davs. The cost of moving a ton of freight between 
 these points by canal is $1.98, including State tolls ; by railroad, 8486 
 Hence you see that to save eight days in the transit ot a bushel ot 
 corn the farmer would have to pay about 9 cents more than he would 
 by canal, or at the rate of 32f per cent, a month for this small saving of 
 time. Can anybody tell what compeusating advantage either the farmer 
 or merchant would receive in such a transaction % And yet such argu- 
 ments pass current when an application of common sense would at once 
 reduce them to an absurdity. Recent experiments demonstrate that 
 steam can be profitably used on canals, and that by it transportation 
 will be reduced to less than half what it is now. A boat propelled by 
 steam has passed through the Brie Canal in four days with a full cargo. 
 And it is not improbable that this time may be improved hereafter. This 
 will deprive the enemies of cheap transportation of oue of their pet argu- 
 ments, but they will, no doubt, manifest their usual ingenuity in finding 
 others. That the_peopZe of the country are in earnest upon this question is 
 manifested by their persistent demand for aid to several routes between 
 the great producing sections. 
 
 I do not care to discuss any of these projects ; what I have said in re- 
 lation to one is applicable in a greater or less degree to them all. There 
 is one, however, which is of great importance, not only to the West, but 
 to the New England States also, and, as a defensive measure, to the 
 whole country. I refer to the Niagara Ship-Canal. This work will give 
 to the upper lakes an outlet without a transfer of freight, making a 
 great saving to the shipper. There are employed on these lakes vessels 
 carrying 661,336 tons, nearly one-fourth of the entire tonnage of the 
 country, including river steamers, and equal to about one-third of the 
 tonnage employed in our ocean traffic. These vessels for six months of 
 the year are frozen up, their crews idle, and the vessels, themselves, not 
 only unprofitable, but exposed to serious injury from ice. These losses 
 must be made up by extra freight charges during the season of navi- 
 gation. This canal will release these vessels from their periodical con- 
 finement, and enable them to seek employment elsewhere when the 
 lakes are closed by frost and ice. 
 
 Much has been said about the inadequacy of this route in times of 
 peace, and its dangers in time of war. All this is true, and if such ar- 
 guments are used to show the impolicy of trusting to this single route 
 between East and West, I agree fully with the man who uses it. But 
 at the same time everybody must admit that, if the Erie Canal was 
 closed for one single year, it would produce a blockade of trade, and re- 
 sult in general disaster. Its being closed for a few months is seriously 
 felt, and this shows the absolute necessity of the work, and the impor- 
 tance of opening such a connection between the lakes as will give to 
 Chicago a free and easy access to the sea. But, at the same time that 
 these improvements are essential to that portion of the country, I think 
 we can show that it does not by any means supersede the necessitv of 
 other lines of canal, further south. 
 
 I have not referred to the C.hesapeake and Ohio Canal, nor to the 
 Pennsylvania canals, because they have as yet failed to form a continu- 
 ous water connection with the navigable rivers of the West. But they 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 743 
 
 Lave contributed largely to the development of the sections through 
 which they pass, and especially the iron and mining interests. That 
 they can carry coal cheaper than railroads is evidenced by the fact 
 that the Eeading Eoad has leased the Susquehanna Canal with the 
 avowed purpose of using it to transport coal cheaper than the road can 
 do it. 
 
 The same is true of iron, also. The coal and iron interests of Penn- 
 sylvania make her today the wealthiest and most prosperous State of 
 the Union. Georgia, and Tennessee, and Alabama possess vast mines 
 of coal and iron, richer in quality and quantity than any other miues upon 
 this continent, and yet they remain undeveloped, and as useless as " the 
 hidden talent," only because we have not the cheap means of transpor- 
 tation which will enable us to bear this product to a profitable market. 
 In this view the canals of Pennsylvania have not proved a failure, nor 
 have they fallen into disuse, as is asserted by those who use them as an 
 argument against our great proposed national lines. 
 
 At the first glance one would suppose the Mississippi River would an- 
 swer every requirement of western trade. But it does not, as the people 
 of the West very well know. 
 
 If anybody has a doubt upon this point he has only to turn to the last 
 report from the Bureau of Commerce and Navigation to set it at rest. 
 
 In 1871 there were exported from New Orleans five hundred and eight 
 thousand bushels of corn, $1,075,000 worth of flour, and twelve thousand 
 five hundred and ten bushels of wheat, while during the same period 
 New York exported more than 835,000,000 worth, and this the product 
 of States drained by the waters of the Mississippi. 
 
 Last winter, I saw it stated in the New York papers that ten millions 
 of produce had been caught on the Erie Canal by one night's freeze. 
 This was mostly western grain, and in amount greater than the grain 
 export of New Orleans and Philadelphia combined. 
 
 You may ask, why does this grain go away from the Mississippi, and 
 seek New York? I do not know any better reason than that it is 
 cheaper to send it by way of New York, and that is reason enough. I 
 know that the common reason given why the trade of the country seeks 
 New York is because New York has more capital than any other 
 American sea-port. But money or capital is only a convenient medium 
 of exchange, and is attracted by the product, which is the real value. 
 Nor has it any more power to draw the product to it than the eagle 
 has to draw the carcass. Money gathers at New York because the pro- 
 ducts are there, and the products go to that point because it is cheaper 
 to carry them there than to other places. The memorial adopted by 
 the Louisville convention, October 4, 1870, gives $11.77J as the cost of 
 carrying a ton of freight from Saint Louis to Liverpool, by way of Chi- 
 cago, the lakes, the Erie Canal, and New York. The same authority 
 gives the cost by way of New Orleans and the Gulf at §12.91, being 
 81.13* in favor of the New York route. High insurance, caused by the 
 dangers of the Florida Pass, and heavy loss from climatic causes, are 
 urged as reasons why western trade no longer seeks this route. But the 
 first reason is sufficient. It costs more. 
 
 It is idle to urge in opposition to the proposed routes that the waters 
 of the Mississippi and Gulf are ample to bear away all the products of 
 the West which the Erie Canal and the great railroads cannot move. 
 If they are competent to the task, they do not perform it, and that for 
 the reason assigned or some other reason equally as potent. 
 
 I say nothing against the Mississippi River and its proper uses. It 
 should be, aud in time will be, improved from its head- waters to the 
 
744 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Gulf of Mexico. But I do say that neither the Mississippi nor the 
 lakes do or can supply the needs of the whole country. . 
 
 Look at the map and you will see a vast area of country bounded on 
 the one hand by the lakes and on the other by the Mississippi. This 
 section is divided by the Appalachian range, which runs nearly parallel 
 with the sea-shore, separating the waters which fall into the Gulf of 
 Mexico from those which flow into the Atlantic Ocean. In fact this 
 range separates the food-producing section from the region of minerals 
 and cotton and other products. Four States of this section on the 
 southeast Atlantic sea-board we find require some fifty millions, of grain 
 alone to supply their present need. 
 
 And yet those who argue that the lake route or the Mississippi route 
 is sufficient, simply declare that all this produce needed for home con- 
 sumption must be shipped by these circuitous routes to New York or to 
 New Orleans, there transshipped to some point on the coast of the 
 Carolinas, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, or Mississippi, to be sent into the 
 interior by railroad for distribution. If there were no routes like the 
 Atlantic and Great Western Canal penetrating through the heart of 
 the region to be supplied, and connecting directly with every navigable 
 stream in all these States, their proposition might answer. 
 
 But in the face of this great proposed work, and especially as an ar- 
 gument against its construction, the thing is so absurd that I deem it 
 due to the committee to offer an apology for consuming their time with 
 this notice of it. What we need is cheap food, and this can only be ob- 
 tained by bringing it over the shortest route, without transshipment, 
 and carrying it, if possible, in the vessel in which it is first shipped, to 
 the door of the consumer. 
 
 There are more than five thousand miles of inland navigation in the 
 four States named, suitable with very little improvement to such vessels 
 as will navigate this canal. This will be at once opened to western 
 trade, giving us the very cheapest kind of transportation, and allowing 
 such supplies as we must of necessity draw from the West, at a cost not 
 exceeding 2J mills per ton a mile. 
 
 The barrier presented by the Appalachian chain is a very good reason 
 why for a time the construction of canals was abandoned. Certain 
 physical features are necessary for the construction of such works, while 
 railroads can be built almost anywhere. 
 
 Then it was urged that railroads could be built cheaper, and it was 
 hoped could be ultimately operated cheaper. But experience has not 
 verified the latter. The whole country consequently abandoned the 
 channels which nature had supplied, and went into the railroad busi- 
 ness ; all except New York. And I point to her as an answer to any 
 argument that may be put forth against canals. 
 
 It has been asserted that if. the Erie Canal had not been built until 
 the present day, it never would have been built at all. That is very 
 likely. For had the canal not been built the trade would have sought 
 some other outlet, and New York City and State would have been to-day 
 as poor as any of us. She never could have built her four thousand 
 five hundred miles of railroad, nor could her Central Railroad have 
 earned in one year a sum nearly $10,000,000 greater than the original 
 cost of its construction. 
 
 And here I wish to call attention to the fact that the great prosperity 
 which this country enjoyed between 1830 and 1850 was not entirely the 
 result of our extensive railroad system. The policy of England in the 
 enactment of her celebrated corn-laws, the closing up of the Black Sea, 
 and the consequent cutting off the grain trade of Eussia from Western 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 745 
 
 Europe had more to do with it than is usually admitted. It is true that 
 the high price of breadstuffs enabled the people of the West to use 
 every means of transport to the sea-board, and with profit. 
 
 But the necessities of "Western Europe hastened the construction of 
 the great Ludwig Canal, connecting the Danube and the Ehine, and so 
 soon as that was opened into the grain-producing provinces of Russia 
 the demand for American breadstuffs in a great measure ceased, and 
 our foreign trade fell off to a fearful extent. The British corn -laws 
 were repealed, her ports thrown open, and Eussia became the granary 
 of Western Europe. 
 
 In ten years the export of our domestic products has fallen off 
 $56,000,000. Our shipping interests have suffered to a fearful degree, our 
 commerce has rapidly declined, and to-day, while the increased exports 
 of England amount to $237,000,000 a year, and those of France to 
 $226,000,000, our export trade has been so depleted that the balance of 
 trade is annually against us, and Congress is asked to interpose by sub- 
 sidies to prevent our commercial marine from being swept away from 
 the ocean. 
 
 This is a grave state of affairs, and one that demands a prompt rem- 
 edy. What shall that remedy be 1 Can our shipping interests be Sus- 
 tained by subsidizing steamboats to run back and forth between Europe 
 and America without cargoes % No one will deny that if these vessels 
 had cargoes their employment would not only sustain them, but be re- 
 munerative, and they would need no aid. How, the question is, why 
 don't they have cargoes ? The West has food enough, and to spare, 
 while the cry of the Old World is " bread !" The products of the one 
 remain wasting upon the hands of the producer, while the inhabitant 
 of the Old World perishes with hunger. The West burns com for fuel, 
 while the wail of starvation is wafted to us by every breeze that comes 
 to us from the shores of the eastern continent. Will it afford the de- 
 sired relief to pay ships to ply between these shores empty "? Will it 
 enhance the price of corn or increase the production of cotton ? We 
 ' have no lack of products now. The West alone can supply enough to 
 employ a million of tonnage added to what we now have, but the 
 means of getting those products to the sea-board cheaply is wanting, 
 and there is where the trouble lies. 
 
 I think it has been demonstrated that our present outlets are not suf- 
 ficient. The public verdict says that railroads alone do not meet our 
 wants, and the experience of the past proves this beyond a doubt. For 
 years we have had a railroad mania in the land ; have rushed on from 
 one extravagance and folly to another, until we find ourselves overbur- 
 dened with debt and in possession of a system of internal improvements 
 that never can meet our wants. 
 
 The great need of the country is other and more commodious outlets 
 to the sea. The Northwest asks that the barrier at Niagara be cleared 
 away, and the flood-gates of trade be opened from Chicago to the sea. 
 The West and the South ask that the Ohio and the Chesapeake be 
 united, the Tennessee and the Ocmulgee, and that the mouth of the 
 Mississippi be cleared out. 
 
 The merits of all these improvement have been discussed tor years 
 past, all except that through Georgia, to which I crave your attention 
 for a moment. 
 
 This route, as you will see by looking upon the map, begins upon the. 
 Tenuessee Eiver, near Guntersville. Below this point the Tennessee 
 is, without exception, the best of all western rivers for navigation by 
 barges or steamers of light draught, its channel being without serious 
 
746 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 obstruction, except at the Muscle Shoals, which are being improved even 
 now so as to admit the passage of steamers of 750 tons. At Gunters- 
 ville the Tennessee and Coosa approach each other within thirty miles. 
 Here it is feasible to connect these rivers by a short canal, and this will 
 open navigation to Eoine, Ga., for boats of 300 tons. From Borne the 
 route follows the Etowah to its nearest point of approach to the Chat- 
 tahoochee and Ocmulgee, and down the latter river to the sea. 
 
 Instead of discussing the physical features of this i oute, 1 respectfully 
 refer the committee to the report of Major McFarland, who has made a 
 careful and accurate survey of it, under the orders of the War Depart- 
 ment. 
 
 Ihe first question to be determined, after establishing the feasibility 
 of a work of this kind, is the result to be accomplished by it. This re- 
 sult can be obtained by estimating the value of the trade likely to seek 
 the proposed outlet ; as, for instance, we see it stated that the proposed 
 interoceanic canal across the Isthmus of Darien will probably accom- 
 modate a trade whose annual value, is about $450,000,000 ; and this in- 
 cludes the value of ships as well as cargoes. To accommodate this trade 
 it is proposed to construct a canal costing about $50,000,000. And 
 it is claimed, and no doubt correctly, that it will save annually some 
 $49,000,000 upon the trade specified. This shows what its value will be 
 to the trade of the two oceans; and the fact that no very desirable route 
 has been found is perhaps the only reason why the work has not been 
 constructed long ago. 
 
 Now I wish to draw particular attention to a comparison of what this 
 work is expected to do, and what will be accomplished by the Atlantic 
 and Great Western Canal. The one proposes a canal to cost $1,000,000 
 per mile, for the accommodation of a trade not exceeding $450,000,000 
 annually, including the value of the ships engaged in it. The other 
 proposes to connect the Atlantic Ocean and the Mississippi Biver by an 
 unbroken chain of water open at all seasons of the year, uninterrupted 
 in peace and safe in war. This great inland sea, known as " the Mis- 
 sissippi and its tributaries," embraces some sixteen or seventeen thou- 
 sand miles inland navigation, which controls seventeen thousand five 
 hundred miles of railroad also. Over this aggregate of thirty-four thou- 
 sand miles there is annually moved tonnage whose value exceeds 
 $3,500,000,000, a sum sufficient to pay our national debt and to build 
 seventy-five canals like the one proposed. 
 
 When we remember that the object of the Atlantic and Great West- 
 ern Canal is to reach this trade, and afford it a safe, certain, and cheap 
 outlet to the sea, and that this outlet will cost but $20,000,000, we have 
 in our possession the strongest possible argument in favor of its con- 
 struction. 
 
 But there is another powerful reason why this work should be com- 
 pleted with as little delay as possible. The experience of past years 
 teaches that cotton is really the only reliable article of export in this 
 country. Eepresenting a specie value in all the markets of the world, 
 a ready sale has always been found for whatever surplus we may have 
 had, and at prices which have hitherto rendered its production a profit- 
 able pursuit. 
 
 But the fact stares us in the face that this state of things is under- 
 going a serious change. The profit on the producti6n of cotton is be- 
 coming uncertain and doubtful, and we realize the fact that the United 
 States no longer controls the market. In 1860 the product of cotton in 
 
 * Census 1870, page (399. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 747 
 
 the United States was 5,387,052* bales. Of this amount Georgia, 
 Florida, Alabama, and South Carolina furnished 2,109,673* bales. In 
 1870 the entire product of the United States was 3,011,996 bales, and of 
 tbis the States just named produced 1,167,705 bales, or more than one- 
 third. In 1860 we sold to England alone l,115,890,608t pounds. In 
 1870 our entire export amounted to 1,462,928,024J pounds, and only some 
 357,000,000 pounds more than we sold in 1860 to England. But England 
 consumed about the same amount of cotton in 1870 that she did in 1860, 
 and I think if you will turn to the report of the Bureau of Statistics 
 you will find how this great falling off was effected. In 1850, out of 
 663,576,864 1 pounds of cotton consumed by Great Britain, the United 
 States furnished 493,153,112 pounds, or about 74J per cent. In 1860 
 she consumed 1,390,938,7201 pounds; the United States alone furnishing 
 l,115,890,608t pounds, against 275,048,112 pounds the product of all 
 other countries, or 80 per cent, of the whole. In 1870 England con- 
 sumed l,336,371,648t pounds. Of this amount the United States fur- 
 nished only 716,245,040 pounds, against 620,126,608 pounds furnished by 
 other countries, or only 53 per cent, of the whole amount. So that 
 while she consumes about the same "she did in 1860, she imports only 
 about one-half of what she needs from this country, the other half being 
 drawn from the Indies, Brazil, and Egypt. 
 
 These figures teach us two things : first, that we do not control the 
 cotton market, and second, that the countries just named have almost 
 quadrupled their production of cotton in the last decade, and that it will 
 require the stimulus of high prices but a very few years to enable them 
 to drive our cotton out of foreign marts, just as Bussia is driving out 
 the grain trade. 
 
 With the present high prices, the average planted is decreasing, the 
 product is diminished, the producer is gradually growing poorer and 
 poorer year by year, and our laboring population is abandoning the 
 cotton-belt, leaving none to supply their place. 
 
 I think there can be but one solution for all this, and that is that the 
 production of cotton is ceasing to be profitable. People do not abandon 
 a country where a -living can be easily and certainly made, nor do they 
 run away from prosperity. 
 
 Now, why is it that cotton is ceasing to be profitable? I do not know 
 any better reason than that the cost of production consumes the profit. 
 The recent resolve of the farmers and planters* of this and adjacent 
 States to plant less cotton and larger provision crops points unerringly 
 to the cause of the trouble. That trouble has grown so great that they 
 are willing and ready to revolutionize the entire system of planting in 
 all' this section to escape from the intolerable burden which the want of 
 a freer intercourse with the West has imposed upon them. They see no 
 surer prospect of relief than to plant less cotton, raise their own pro- 
 visions, and keep at home a hundred, millions of dollars which is now paid 
 by them for a very small amount of provision and a very large amount 
 of railroad freight-bills. , 
 
 Nobody will question the wisdom of this policy when he reflects that 
 the old system may at no distant day force these men to sell their birth- 
 right for a mess of pottage, with the railroad freight added. But while, 
 sir, I do not doubt its wisdom, so far as this section is concerned, so long 
 as the necessity exists which drives them to it, I do not believe it will 
 
 * Census 1870, page 699. 
 
 t Agricultural Report, 1870, page 55. 
 
 t Bureau Statistics. 
 
748 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 produce the best results upon other portions of the country. Take away 
 the cotton crop out of our list of exports and we become commercially 
 bankrupt ; not only the South, but the North and West as well. 
 
 But for the large crop on hand in 1866 this result would have followed 
 the close of the war, and for this opinion I have no less weighty au- 
 thority than the Secretary of the Treasury himself. Take away the two 
 or three hundred millions which the cotton export brings, and what 
 becomes of our foreign trade ? We may build railroads all over the con- 
 tinent ; we may subsidize steamboats all over the ocean ; but prosperity 
 will not be restored until the means be provided, not only for getting 
 the products of the West to the sea-board, but for a freer interchange 
 of products between the various sections. 
 
 And just here I will * call attention to the fact that a canal at the 
 mouth of the Mississippi, or one at Niagara, or one between the Ohio 
 and the Chesapeake, will never answer the purpose proposed by the 
 Atlantic and Great Western Canal, viz, of furnishing a home market 
 to the products of the West and the development of the great cotton 
 interest of the country. It will also furnish an important outlet to the 
 sea for the products of a very large portion of the West, but we do not 
 claim for it that it will answer every need of the country and render all 
 other works of a similar kind unnecessary. 
 
 I know it has been claimed by overzealous advocates that either the 
 Mississippi on the one extreme, or the lakes and Saint Lawrence on the 
 other, could be made to answer every need of the country ; but we have 
 only to examine the map, to see at once that such a claim is as absurd 
 as would be that of supposing a single artery, located in the crown 
 of the head or sole of the foot, sufficient to give perfect vigor and vital- 
 ity to the human body. The value of this home trade to the food-pro- 
 ducing sections may be conceived when we remember that a single 
 railroad annually brings to Atlanta, and other stations along its line, 
 ■ western products valued at more than $40,000,000. Add to this the 
 amount sent to these States over other roads, and that which reaches 
 us by way of the sea-board, and it will make an aggregate greater than 
 that taken from us by all the peoples of the world combined. 
 
 The opening of this canal would effect au average saving on each ton 
 of freight of $9.52. Upon grain alone this saving would amount to the 
 enormous sum of $28,500,000 annually, and three times that sum if all 
 other articles of prime necessity drawn from the West be included. The 
 sum thus saved would equal about $25 per head for the entire popula- 
 tion of these four States. 
 
 It is claimed that freight can be moved on the. Mississippi for 1J mills 
 per ton a mile. If this be so I do not see any reason why it could hot 
 be moved on the Ohio and Tennessee Rivers at the same cost, especially 
 when all obstacles to navigation have been removed. Nearly 1,200 
 miles of the proposed route from Saint Louis to Savannah is by river. 
 Over this, at the rates given, a ton of freight could be carried for 81.50. 
 There are on the whole line some three hundred miles of canal and im- 
 proved navigation. 
 
 I think it is pretty clearly established that, by the use of steam, freight 
 can be moved on canals at 2.068 mills per ton per mile. This would 
 make the cost on this line some 62 cents, and the entire cost from Saint . 
 Louis to Savannah $2.12 per ton, or 6J cents per bushel. 
 
 Who is prepared in the face of these facts to doubt that we have the 
 means within our reach of again grasping the grain trade of Western 
 Europe, and the cotton market of the world ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 749 
 
 " Now, we no doubt fully contest the wavering balance of trade with 
 Eussia inrespect to'her supply of wheat to Great Britain. Why ? Because 
 to bring a bushel of wheat from Chicago to the Atlantic costs'us 30 cents. 
 Eussia can do it equally as cheap, including the cost of production. 
 How can you and how can we change all this? By finding a route by 
 the Saint Lawrence or by any other channel, by which grain can reach 
 the sea-board for 15 cents a bushel. Do this, and Eussia no longer can 
 hold dispute in the markets of the world." 
 
 The report of the engineer establishes the fact that by horse-boat a 
 ton of freight can be carried over this route from Saint Louis to the sea 
 for $4.88, or 14 cents per bushel, and 1 cent less than the limit given 
 above. 
 
 Passing, as the Atlantic and Great "Western Canal will do, through the 
 great cotton-belt, and giving to all that section, by means of its con- 
 nection with the inland navigation already supplied by nature, cheap 
 food and easy access, it will not only furnish an immense and annually 
 increasing home-market for the products of the West, but will also en- 
 able us to Supply the world with cotton so cheap that it can never have 
 a successful competitor. 
 
 There is one other question connected with this subject which it is 
 eminently proper for me to discuss here, and that is the manner in 
 which this work shall be built. In 1869 the legislature of Georgia 
 granted a charter to a number of gentlemen, many of whom are citizens 
 of this State, and all well known to the country. This charter makes 
 the canal forever a public highway, free to all who may choose to use it, 
 upon the payment of a small fixed toll, whose maximum shall in no case 
 exceed five mills per ton. This, sum is designed for maintenance, 
 repairs, interest upon investment, and other expenses, and for a sinking- 
 fund for the final extinguishment of the debt. 
 
 The application made by the company to Congress was for the in- 
 dorsement of the guaranty of the United States for the payment of 
 interest only upon the bonds of the company, not to exceed $80,000 per 
 mile, and this indorsement to be granted upon each ten miles of the 
 canal as completed, the Government holding the whole work as security 
 for the faithful performance of . this contract to pay the interest 
 promptly. 
 
 The plan is not new. It has been fully tested by the British govern- 
 ment in the construction of their colonial works of internal improve- 
 ment, and found to work well. It possesses many evident advantages 
 over the old system of subsidies and land-grants, leaving little room for 
 peculation and fraud, and making the company alone responsible for 
 loss as from this cause. It insures that no work, if not of commercial 
 value, or in other words a paying enterprise, will be undertaken under 
 the provisions of such an act, as the Government becomes responsible 
 only for the interest, while for the principal the money-lender must look 
 for security and final payment .solely to the value of the work itself. 
 It will insure economy in the construction, as it is private and not pub- 
 lic money that will be used, and will guard against corruption, as the 
 parties can only defraud each other. 
 
 Canals differ from railroads essentially in this particular, the canal 
 only is owned by the company, while the boats navigating it are owned 
 and operated by private individuals and others. Anybody has the right 
 to use a canal who pleases ; and the tolls being fixed by statute, and 
 the work itself declared. by law a public highway, no danger from dis- 
 crimination or monopoly need be apprehended. 'It will be "as free as 
 the sea," or as our country roads, or streets, or public- highways; for 
 
750 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 we should not forget that everybody is taxed to keep the one in repair, 
 while the commerce of the world is taxed to maintain navies, and light- 
 houses, and buoys, and for other purposes deemed requisite tor its 
 safety and protection on the high seas. 
 
 The interests of corporations who serve the public are closely identi- 
 fied with the interests of that public ; the only danger is that by the 
 grant of irresponsible powers the corporation may some time become 
 the master instead of the servant of the public. This state of affairs 
 should be guarded against. But I do not apprehend there would be any 
 more difflcultv in restraining, such a corporation to its proper uses and 
 legitimate interests than in enacting laws for the restraint and guidanceof 
 Government officials who would have charge of it under State or Fed- 
 eral control. Because wrongs have been committed by some is no reason 
 why an indiscriminate war should be waged against all corporations. 
 To their energy and public spirit we are indebted to-day for the major 
 portion of the wealth and prosperity of this country, and when grave 
 wrongs have been permitted to grow out of them, the corporation can 
 in most cases divide the responsibility with the law-making power 
 whose duty it was to guard the public weal. Experience, however, is 
 useless, if the errors of the past suggest no remedy for their correction 
 in the future. 
 
 In presenting this plan it is proper for me to state that the principal 
 desire of the members composing this corporation, and I believe of the 
 State of Georgia, is to secure the construction of this great work and 
 its benefits to our people, looking upon the manner of its construction 
 as of minor consideration, and being entirely willing to leave the 
 arrangement of that to the committee and to Congress. 
 
 The materials for the development of a prosperity in this country, 
 more dazzling than a dream, have been provided by a wisdom which 
 puny-minded man is slow to comprehend. One section, where the rela- 
 tion borne by the value of food to the value of labor is so intimate as 
 to make both almost valueless, is choked and gorged by the surfeit of 
 grain, whereas other sections engaged in the manufacture of those 
 articles required by the diversity of climate and pursuit are hampered 
 for the want of a cheaper interchange of the commodities of other 
 sections, an interchange so absolutely necessary to the prosperity of all. 
 
 Cotton is not king, nor is iron, nor grain, nor manufactures. They 
 are all subjects ; powerful subjects, it is true, but all subordinate to the 
 dominant power of the land — the real king — transportation. . 
 
 Hat in hand, we see these powerful subjects humbly supplicating King 
 Transportation to place them in more intimate relation, and effect for 
 them an alliance irresistible in the onward march of progress. 
 
 We hear Transportation say to Cotton, " Bend your energies to the 
 increase of your production, while I bring you iron, food, and manufac- 
 tured articles from the allied powers." We hear Transportation say to 
 Grain, "Here is money sent y.ou by cotton, iron, and manufactured 
 articles as the reward of your exertions in feeding them." 
 
 Again, Transportation says to Iron and Manufacturers, "I have 
 brought you food and clothes for what you have furnished the alliance." 
 
 We have the wealth of the field, the forest, and the mine, of every 
 thing, in fact, needed for the comfort and prosperity of man, and in such 
 lavish profusion as the hand of Providence alone bestows. But they 
 remain valueless, because we neglect to bring them into close alliance. 
 
 The gravity of the question as to how these interests may be thus 
 linked together becomes manifest. 
 
 But how can it be done "2 Not surely by legislative restrictions upon 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 751 
 
 our existing means of transportation. That, at least, would bebut a doubt- 
 ful expedient. Nor, as some suppose, by the withdrawal of protection. 
 That would, if hastily consummated, destroy our own manufactories and 
 make us the prey of foreign monopolists. Would it help the sale of 
 western produce? Would it enable you to get to market cheaper? 
 Would it aid you in competing more successfully with the Eussian 
 grain-dealer ? Would it increase the production of iron or cotton ? I 
 do not see how it would do any of these things. 
 
 Its only result would be a change of masters. Ton may compel the 
 railroads to carry freight at cost, but that will not mend the matter until 
 some mode of operating them isfound less costly than atpresent. The evil 
 is in the inadequacy of our present system. We must have some 
 cheaper mode, and water offers the only practical solution. Let the 
 Government aid in building these great lines, and by that means effect 
 an alliance of the leading interests of the country, and this will give not 
 only protection to the South and West, but contentment and prosperity 
 to the whole country. The protection we need is the ability to become 
 the active and successful competitors in the markets of the world. Food 
 controls the value of all manufactured articles, as well as of all other in- 
 dustrial and agricultural products. We have an untold capital .in this 
 all-important source of wealth, and, by its cheap transportation, the New 
 England manufacturer, in the very teeth of Manchester, may offer the 
 product of his spindles, the Pensylvania miner may drop his iron on the 
 toes of Scotland and Wales, and the western farmer crowd his flour and 
 corn under the nose of the Eussian grain-dealer. We have within our- 
 selves the elements of a success yet unwritten. It only remains for us 
 to grasp them, and we will build up a country that shall be the pride 
 and glory of the world. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where did you obtain the statement of the result of the 
 steamboat experiments on the Erie Canal ? 
 
 Answer. I obtained it from the report of the New York canal com- 
 missioners. 
 
 Question. The recent report I 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; the report of the special commissioners. 
 
 Question. They placed the reduction at 65 per cent., did they f 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir'. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. Is that the last test you had reference to— within the last 
 month ? 
 
 Answer. It was a report that they sent down here two or three months 
 ago. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Question. Is that Faulkner's experiment? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; I do not think it is. This is the steam-towing that 
 I am referring to. 
 
 Question. Do you mean the steam applied directly to the canal-boat 
 which carries the freight ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Question. I understand it to be the result of experiments of a recently 
 appointed canal board. There was a board appointed by the legisla- 
 ture for the purpose of testing steam on the canal, and a hundred thou- 
 
752 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 sand dollars reward was offered for the best mode presented. Is that 
 the test you have reference to ? 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. Ton made some comparisons as to the cost of transshipping 
 grain by the various routes, and gave your figures, as I understand it, 
 at 15 cents per bushel for grain from Saint Louis by the Atlantic and 
 Great Western route to the sea-board? 
 
 Answer. Fourteen cents. 
 
 Question. What is the distance in miles of water communication by 
 this proposed route from Saint Louis to the sea-board? - 
 
 Answer. Fifteen hundred and eight miles, measuring the bends of 
 the river as they now are — accurate measurement from Saint Louis to 
 Brunswick. 
 
 Question. That would be about four times the length of the Erie Canal? 
 
 Answer. Do you mean the canal or of the entire distance ? 
 
 Question. The entire line of the transportation ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. It would be one thousand five hundred and eight 
 miles. 
 
 Question. Then that would be about four times the length of the Brie 
 Canal? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; that is three hundred and sixty-three miles long. 
 
 Question. What would be the time, in your judgment, consumed in 
 that transit ? 
 
 Answer. I do not know. 
 
 Question. I see you have stated ten days on the Erie Canal ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. But I never made any calculation on this. I think 
 those steamboats are designed to average the route at three and one- 
 half miles an hour. The speed could be much greater on the river, be- 
 cause the speed of a boat or tow on the river would be as great on the 
 Tennessee, I presume, as it would, under ordinary circumstances, on the 
 Ohio or Mississippi. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Question. Please state the open river navigation and canal ? 
 Answer. There are about twelve hundred miles of open river navigation 
 on the line. 
 
 By Mr. Conover : 
 
 Question. What would be the number of miles of canal ? 
 
 Answer. There are two hundred and twelve miles of canal proper, I 
 think what yon would call excavation. It makes, I suppose, about seven- 
 ty-five or eighty miles ; more than that; it makes three hundred and 
 sixty -five miles, I think, given by the engineer, of canal proper and im- 
 proved navigation. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Question. Slack- water? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; that includes- the Muscle Shoals, thirty-eight 
 miles, and the improvement upon the Etowah Eiver from Rome up to 
 Cartersville. 
 
 Question. Is it calculated with the new improvements or proposed 
 improvements to canal transportation, to wit, the propulsion of canal- 
 boats, that the same class of boats would load at Saint Louis, and con- 
 tinue to the extreme eastern end of your line ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; that is the view of the Engineer Department. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 753 
 
 Question. That no transshipment would be necessary ? 
 Answer. No, sir ; not between Saint Louis or any point in the West 
 and the Atlantic sea-board, by this route. 
 Question. Of what tonnage will the boats be 1 
 Answer. Three hundred tons. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman: 
 
 Question. What is the length of the Muscle Shoals 1 
 
 Answer. The canal proper is eleven miles. 
 
 Question. Prom the head of Muscle Shoals to Guntersville is how 
 much ? 
 
 Answer. 1 could not give that. 
 
 Question. Can you give the distance from the Tennessee River to the 
 Coosa ? 
 
 Answer. Thirty miles, and the canal, including bends and slack-wa- 
 ter, is fifty-one miles. 
 
 Question. What is the length of the Coosa, as used 1 
 
 Answer. A hundred miles. There is an obstruction three miles be- 
 low Rome called Horse-Leg Shoal. Some years ago, as State engineer, I 
 made a survey there. It is very trifling, and can be got rid of with very 
 little difficulty. The State had an idea at one time of improving them. 
 
 Question. Where do you leave the Coosa ? 
 
 Answer. At Rome, and follow the Etowah. From the point where 
 you strike Fisher's Creek there is navigation already. It only wants a lit- 
 tle dredging out, and a clearing of the drift from the river. From that 
 point up to Rome there is unobstructed navigation now, except at Horse- 
 Leg Shoals. 
 
 Question. How far up do you follow the Etowah '? 
 
 Answer. About thirty miles, up to Cartersville. 
 
 Question. Is that slack-water navigation or canal? 
 
 Answer. It is slack-water. The canal begins below the railroad 
 bridges at Cartersville, and follows up that river and up Little River, 
 and crosses the plateau. But the engineer is not at all satisfied that 
 that is the best route. This is an experimental line/ He is very well 
 satisfied that a cheaper or easier route could be found ; but we give this 
 to show the extreme limit of expense. We have given the extreme limit, 
 not only in the length of the line but in the cost of it. 
 
 Question. Have you the levels of that route f 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; they are upon the map. 
 
 Question. The profiles, I see, are here, but have you the cuttings? 
 
 Answer. They are given on the profile. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Do you remember the elevation of the Tennessee at Gun- 
 tersville above the level of the sea ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; I do not. The elevation of the summit, I think, is 
 405 feet above the Tennessee, and something more than that above the 
 Coosa. That is the extreme altitude and highest point on the canal. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 Question. But you do not know the distance above the ocean ? 
 Answer. No, sir. I do not know that any experiment was taken 
 during the survey to test that. They only took the elevation above nav- 
 igable water. 
 Question. What sized canal have you estimated for "l 
 Answer. The estimate was for a canal 70 feet wide and 5 feet deep, 
 with locks sufficient to pass boats of three huudred tons. 
 48 T S 
 
754 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Question. Have you an estimate of the cost of the entire improve- 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir ; I have the engineer's report, but it is not with 
 
 me. . , „ 
 
 Question. When you say engineer, what engineer do you mean t 
 
 Answer. The United States engineer, Colonel McFarland, who will 
 be here at 1 o'clock. He is now on his way. He made the survey under 
 the orders of Congress. 
 
 Question. When ? 
 
 Answer. About two years ago.. 
 
 Question. Was that a thorough survey ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; he made a thorough survey, so far as the feasibility 
 of the line is involved, and a report. His report was submitted by the 
 Secretary of War to Congress. 
 
 Question. Is it in print ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; I have it, as I say, but have not got it with me. 
 
 Question. Yo» have made some comparisons between the trade and 
 population of Hew York and Philadelphia. From whence did you ob- 
 tain that ? 
 
 Answer. Prom the United States census. 
 
 Question. You took the census report each decade, and from that you 
 made your tabled 
 
 Answer. I did. 
 
 Question. I understood your comparison to be population and exports 
 more particularly 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. And while Philadelphia, in the commencement of your 
 statement, was larger both in population and exports, yet when you 
 ended there was a very great difference in favor of New York '? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. And you attributed it to the Brie Canal 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. And the statement in relation to the coal-oil you 
 can find in the Bureau of Statistics for that year. You will find that 
 the coal-oil is the great increase ; that it has produced the great increase 
 in the exports. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. As to the Western and Atlantic Eailroad ; is that your 
 chief channel of communication between here and Saint Louis? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Is there any other ¥ 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; nothing comes by any other route to this place from 
 the West, I think, except by the Atlantic road. 
 
 Question. I notice that in these tables you furnish freight charges by 
 Green Line rates. What is that Green Line 1 
 
 Answer. It is a combination of railroad companies. I believe it is a 
 sort of car company that runs certain cars. 
 
 Question. I suppose it corresponds to the Red, White and Blue lines 
 on the eastern roads '? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; it is a combination among railroad officials, I think, 
 to run trains. 
 
 Question. Is there any one here who can give us any definite infor- 
 mntion about that? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; Mr. Thomas Walker can do that. He is not in 
 the room at present, but will be here, and can give you all the informa- 
 tion you desire upon that point. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 755 
 
 Question. Do you know how the transportation of this Green Line 
 compares with the ordinary freight charges on the road 1 
 
 Answer. My impression is that it is less. 
 
 Question. The Green Line does all the through business, I under- 
 stand ? 
 
 Answer. I think so. 
 
 Question. Do you know how the charges for 1873, of which you have 
 given us a table, compare with the charges for previous years f 
 
 Answer. 1 do not. I think the charges for the two years were given 
 in that table. 
 
 The following document was also submitted by Colonel Frobel : 
 
 FIFTH DIVISION.— GEORGIA CANAL ROUTE. 
 
 1. The present value of the Tennessee River and of other rivers as commercial tribu- 
 taries of the proposed Georgia Canal. 
 
 2. Geographical extent and population of the territory seeking this outlet to the sea- 
 board. 
 
 3. Probable amount of western products which would pass through the Georgia Ca- 
 nal' if now completed. 
 
 4. Probable cost of constructing the Georgia Canal, and of making the required river 
 improvements. 
 
 5. Probable time required to complete the same. 
 
 6. Length of season of navigation by this route. 
 
 7. The supply of water for the summit-levels, and facts in relation to the most for- 
 midable engineering difficulties to be overcome. 
 
 8. The number of locks, and total number of feet of lockage. 
 
 9. Height of summit above tide- water. 
 
 10. Total tonnage capacity of this canal when completed to the Tennessee River, i. e., 
 the total number of tons of freight which can be transported over it annually. 
 
 11. Probable value of the market which would be developed for the wheat and corn, 
 and other agricultural products of the Western and Northwestern States, by the con- 
 struction of this canal. 
 
 12. Probable effect which the construction of this canal would have upon the in- 
 creased production of cotton in the South Atlantic States. 
 
 Question 1. — The value of lands, farm products, and live-stock along the line of this 
 canal, from the mouth of the Tennessee to the mouth of the Ocmulgee, including their 
 tributaries, is $446,690,179, viz : Farm products, (annually,) $123,436,945 ; live-stock, 
 $66,385,098 ; farms and unimproved lands, $256,838,136. This includes only those 
 counties which are located immediately along the proposed line, and which will find 
 their best or only outlet to a market by this canal. No doubt the canal will drain a 
 much larger area, and the value of products be doubled by a judicious system of short 
 and cheap freighting railways and other roads built as feeders to this great trade- 
 artery. 
 
 2. These lands embrace an area of 38,236,932 acres, and with a population of 1,966,178. 
 The population is thin, only about one-half of the lauds being improved. The canal 
 would also benefit, in a greater or less degree, the whole Mississippi Valley, and also the ■ 
 great cotton States on the southeast Atlantic sea-board. 
 
 3. Probably fifteen millions of tons, or to the extent of its capacity. 
 
 4 Both may be completed, according to the estimate of the United States engineer, 
 for about $30,000,000. , ' 
 
 5. In two years, if the whole line be put under contract and the means furnished to 
 push the work as vigorously as possible. 
 
 6. Twelve months, or all the year. " It will never be closed by ice or rendered im- 
 passable by drought." So says the United States engineer in his report, 1873, page 
 
 7~. There are no formidable engineering difficulties along the line. It follows the flat 
 lands along the rivers, except for a short distance, where it crosses the ridges between 
 the Coosa and Tennessee Rivers and Etowah and Ocmulgee. The Chattahoochee 
 River flows along the ridge between the Etowah and Ocmulgee, supplying an abund- 
 ance of water for this summit-level. Town Creek, a large mountain stream, will supply 
 the water for the summit-level between the Tennessee and Coosa. The United States 
 
756 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 engineer says of this stream: "An abundant supply of water for ' * he ^mafJng 
 canal can be obtained during eight months of tbe year, while during the ram ain,ng 
 four months, by resorting to the ufe of storage-reservoirs, a sufficient supply ^can o sod 
 tained." (See Engineer'! Report, 1873, page 515.) -Daring the driest season of the year 
 this part of the canal can be operated to half its full capacity, say one hwtod^ 
 seven boats a day, which nearly equals the average of the Erie Canal at its busiest 
 season. The dry 'season begins here the latter part of May and end .early in the 
 autumn. This is the season at which very little western produce will be coming for- 
 ward, and the trade consequently very light. Halt the wpw 1 ^^^,^.^ 1 .^ 
 daily thirty-one thousand two hundred tons, equal to more than a million bushels of 
 grain, which will probably exceed the amount seeking a market at this season. 
 
 8. Number of locks not determined. Sum of lockage east and west on the whole 
 line. 1,862 feet. „ , , , . , „ .„ r , ™ 
 
 9.' Highest point above navigable water, 674 feet; above tide 940 feet. These .. 
 heights are extreme and cannot be exceeded, but they may be greatly reduced in the 
 final location of the work. 
 
 > 10. About twenty-five million tons annually. 
 
 '"•11. The four States of Georgia, Alabama, Florida, and South Carolina consume 
 104,000,000 bushels of grain. Of this amount they produce 57,000,000 bushels, leaving 
 47,000,000 bushels to be supplied by other States. Averaging this at $1 per bushel, it 
 would be $47,000,000. Bacon, beef, lard, pork, apples, potatoes, and other things sup- 
 plied by the West amount probably to as much, $47,000,000, making a total of 894,000,000. 
 Could all these articles be supplied cheaper than they can be raised here, they would 
 swell the amount probably to $200,000,000, giving an increased home market to the 
 West of more than $100,000,000 annually, without any increase of our present popula- 
 tion and resources. 
 
 13. Six million acres of the best land in the South are now devoted to the produc- 
 tion of food-crops. Half of the labor and capital of the cotton States is employed in 
 the same way. This land, labor, and capital devoted to cotton would increase the 
 product of that staple (taking the data given by the Bureau of Statistics) three 
 million bales. These bales, at 15 cents, would yield $225,000,000— increasing to that 
 extent our foreign exports, and causing the wealth of the world to flow toward us 
 instead of away from us, as in years past. 
 
 Finally, the United States engineer, Colonel McFarland, in speaking of this route in 
 comparison with other existing and proposed routes, says : '■ It may be said for it that, 
 while it enjoys every advantage possessed by the others, it is superior to them all in 
 this, that it will never be obstructed by ice ; will never be rendered impassible by 
 drought; does not descend sufficiently low into the heated regions to have its cargoes 
 injured by heat or moisture; will require no rehandling of cargo between the points 
 of shipment and discharge, and will cost but little more than the Erie Canal enlarged, 
 while its capacity will be greater ; and no doubt it will, like the Erie Canal, pay for 
 original outlay, interest, expense of repair, and service, with a large balance to its 
 credit, in the course of thirty years. (See report of Engineer Department, 1873, pages 
 518,519.) 
 
 Examination of Maj. Walter MacFarland, United States En- 
 gineer Corps. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. How long have you been engaged in charge of this survey, 
 by way of the Atlantic and Great Western route I 
 
 Answer. The order was made a little over two years ago directing the 
 survey. I have been in change of it ever since. It was in March or 
 Aprils 1871, 1 think. 
 
 Question. State to the committee, if you please, such information 
 as will enable them to form a judgment as to its feasibility and practi- 
 cability, giving distances and engineering features of the work, ex- 
 penses, &c. 
 
 Answer. That is all covered by my report, which is published in the 
 report of the Chief of Engineers for 1872. I can give you the features 
 of it briefly, however, if you desire. 
 
 Question. Be good enough to do so, that we may have it in our record 
 in a brief and condensed form, touching only the important points. 
 
 Answer. The route passes up the Ohio to the Tennessee, and up the 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 757 
 
 Tennessee to Guntersville, by the river Tennessee, being river naviga- 
 tion the whole way. 
 
 Question. State the distance, if you remember. 
 
 Answer. The distance from Paducah to the foot of Muscle Shoals 
 is about two hundred and fifty-five miles. The Muscle Shoals 
 require canaling for about thirty-eight miles ; not all canal ; perhaps 
 only twenty-eight of that would be canal. There are certain pools in 
 the river. There is another stretch of the river to be made use of from 
 the head of Muscle Shoals to Guntersville, which is the point where the 
 Tennessee reaches its lowest latitude. Prom Guntersville the route 
 would be by canal about fifty miles, the canal and slack-,water naviga- 
 tion across Sand Mountain to the Coosa Eiver. They are only thirty- 
 five miles apart there ; but following the creeks, the route would be 
 about fifty-one miles. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Question. State, if you please, the proportion of that distance which 
 would be canaling excavation and what slack- water. 
 
 Answer. Thirty-three miles of that would be canaling, and seventeen 
 and a half miles slack-water; that is, between the Coosa and the Ten- 
 nessee. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. That is the most difficult part of the route, I suppose ? 
 
 Answer. You cannot call it the most difficult. It would be relatively 
 the most expensive. It is easy enough work and plain sailing, although 
 it would be expensive ; but the question which has usually given it the 
 character of being a difficult matter is the question of water-supply. 
 The survey shows that we can get all the water we want for a larger 
 canal than the one we propose to construct. 
 
 Question. Describe that section briefly, with the altitudes you have 
 to overcome. 
 
 Answer. .The portion between the Tennessee and the Coosa, fifty-one 
 miles in length, would consist of thirty three miles of canal, and seven- 
 teen and a half of slack-water navigation. The summit level would be 
 about 400 feet above the level of the Tennessee. The Coosa is 64 feet 
 lower. The total lockage would be 864 feet, passing from one river to 
 the other. The supply of water is abundant. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Question. That is, you mean up and down 864 feet? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; 400 feet on the Tennessee side of the mountain, 
 and 464 feet descent to the Coosa. During the dry season of the year 
 we would have to make use of reservoirs, say for three or four months. 
 The flow of Town Creek would not be sufficient, and reservoirs would 
 have to be made use of, as they are made use of today on the Erie 
 Canal, and, indeed, in every canal in operation that I know of. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. Your report shows in detail the supply of water and the 
 cost of making these reservoirs, I suppose? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; that has been the only point about which there 
 has been any question — that connection from the Tennessee to the 
 Coosa. The survey has shown conclusively that it was just as practi- 
 cable as any other part of the route. 
 
 Question. And that doubt arose from what ? 
 
 Answer. Only for want of information. 
 
758 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Question. As to the supply of water f 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. There is no doubt upon any other ground ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. Town Creek is sixty or seventy miles long, and 
 there is water enough to run the Erie Canal ; but during dry seasons the 
 upper part of it becomes dried up. In consequence, therefore, reser- 
 voirs would have to be constructed by damming some of the valleys, of 
 which there are a great many there, to hold a supply to last during the 
 three months of the dry weather. 
 
 Question. Careful estimates have been made from actual surveys ! 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. Was the water gauged 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; we have had a party there during the last six 
 months every day gauging it. From the exit of this canal on the Coosa, 
 where the canal joins the Coosa, the route would be up the Coosa one 
 hundred and fifty-three miles to Borne, being river navigation all the 
 way. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Slack-water? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; that is navigable now. 
 
 Question. What size do you propose to make your canal, prism, and 
 locks 7 
 
 Answer. The original proposition was to make the canal 70 feet wide 
 at the water-surface, and 56 feet at the bottom, 5 feet deep. The 
 design, somewhat hastily made, was to make the locks 30 feet by 120. 
 An examination of the plans showed a better proportion to be 27 by 135. 
 
 Question. What sized boats would that give you ? 
 
 Answer. With a draught of 4 feet of water through a 5-foot canal, it 
 will give a boat which will carry pretty nearly three hundred tons. 
 
 Question. Is there not some difficulty on the rivers, either on the 
 Tennessee or some others ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, there is a difficulty ; but the estimate for the route 
 covers the improvement of all those rivers. 
 
 Question. And give 4 feet of navigation ? 
 
 Answer. Three feet during the low stage of water, and at any other 
 season of the year you can get 5 or 6 feet. The largest vessels on the 
 Mississippi run up to Florence. 
 
 Question. What do you estimate to be the length of the dry season, 
 when you have not more than 3 or 4 fee,t ? 
 
 Answer. Between three and four months, say July, August, Septem- 
 ber, and October. That varies very much, however. 
 
 Question. Drawing 3 feet, what would be the tonnage of the boats? 
 
 Answer. Between 180 and 200 tons. About 190 tons would be a fair 
 Average. These locks were made broader. The shallowness of the 
 rivers is what determines the depth to be given to the canals. During 
 the low stage of water there is plenty of water in the Teunessee and 
 Coosa Rivers to float almost anything which floats on the Mississippi, 
 excepting on the bars here and there, There are a number of them. 
 You can increase the depth to 3 feet at a comparatively moderate ex- 
 pense over all the bars, so that 3 feet of water can be had the whole 
 year round ; and the increase of the cost would be almost in geometrical 
 proportion to make it 3, 4, or 5 feet deep. I limited the estimates to 
 making 3 feet at low water and 5 feet in high water. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 759 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Did you riot encounter some difficulties in estimating for 
 as large vessels as you require, on account of the short bends in the 
 river ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; that is the reason we do not make locks much 
 longer in the Sand Mountain route. That is the difficulty. In follow- 
 ing up the valley from Short Creek and down Will's Creek the turns 
 are sometimes very sharp. 
 
 Question. Are there any difficulties of that kind, in the Tennessee ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; the Tennessee is a larger river than the Ohio. It 
 averages broader and deeper. 
 
 Question. Have you estimated the expense of canaling, instead of 
 using Short Creek and Will's Creek ? 
 
 • Answer. There is no other mode of going over. We would, of course, 
 use tbem for slack- water navigation as far as practicable. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Question. Cannot those short turns be straightened 1 ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir, they can; and I have added to the report of the 
 original survey for that very thing. They can be straightened to a 
 reasonable extent. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Suppose those short turns in those two streams be straight- 
 ened as contemplated in your additional estimates, how much larger 
 could you make your boats ? 
 
 Answer.. That was taken into consideration in determining the dimen- 
 sions of those locks. Cutting off the coiners as much as possible, will 
 permit our using locks 135 feet long, and that would give the capacity 
 of those boats I have mentioned. 
 
 Question. So that the capacity is based on the actual estimates for 
 straightening the streams? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; from actual survey. 
 
 Question. Is there any difficulty in any of the other rivers between 
 the Tennessee and the Atlantic ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. We have passed up the Coosa now with perfect 
 plain sailing one hundred and fifty miles to Borne, and there, on the 
 Etowah Eiver, we would probably arrange for slack-water fifty-three 
 miles up, a kttle beyond Cartersville ; the original estimate provided 
 for a canal through that portion. A later survey shows that we can fit 
 it for slack-water navigation at a reduction of very nearly two millions 
 of dollars on the cost of canaling. 
 
 Question. And make equally good navigation ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. Passing from Borne by slack-water up the Etowah 
 to a point a little beyond Cartersville, the distance being fifty-three 
 miles from Borne, we then reach the beginning of the main canal across 
 the State of Georgia, and that line is one hundred and fifty-eight miles 
 long to Macon. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Question. There is no slack- water in that ! 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; that is canal the whole way. There would be a 
 short tunnel on it, 3,200 feet long, an aqueduct across the Chattahoochee 
 375 feet long, with some embankments, making it 1,900 feet in length. 
 That aqueduct would have to be 117 feet above the level of low water 
 in the Chattahoochee. The line follows small creeks that run into the 
 Ocmulgee, and follows the valley of the Ocmulgee down to Macon. 
 
760 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. There you strike what f „ 
 
 Answer. It has not been determined yet whether we can make use oi 
 the Ocinulgee from Macon down to Hawkinsville. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. What other difficulties are encountered of an engineering 
 character, excepting this tunnel? 
 
 Answer. None, whatever, sir; it is an expensive route, but there are 
 no difficulties. It will need a great deal of cutting and filling. The 
 country is a very undulating and rugged one, there not being much rock 
 excavation, we following the windings of the small creeks as much as 
 we can. In one or two places it is not direct. When we reach the val- 
 ley of the Chattahoochee we have to pass out fifteen or twenty miles, 
 in order to get a reasonable crossing. We could cross it there, but it 
 would cost much more than it would be worth. Because it was uncer- 
 tain whether the Ocmulgee could be used from Macon to Hawkinsville, 
 tl(- estimate covered the cost of constructing a canal over that portion. 
 It is quite possible on future examination we will find that that part of 
 the river caD be used, and the estimate be sfcill further reduced. From 
 Macon, if the canal stops there, or from Hawkinsville, if it stops there, 
 there would be river navigation to the sea. From Macon to Hawkinsville 
 is about forty-five miles." From Macon to the sea is about five hundred 
 miles. From Hawkinsville the boats we propose can navigate down; 
 but, as I have said, Congress never ordered a survey of that part ; and 
 we do not know what it would cost to fit the river itself between Macon 
 and Hawkinsville for navigation. Brunswick is ten miles a little south 
 from the mouth of the Altamaha. You could either go south to Bruns- 
 wich, or northeasterly to Savannah, inside of the sea islands. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. How much water is there at the sea at Brunswick ? 
 
 Answer. I do not think there is over 18 feet at low water. I do not 
 remember exactly. I speak only from a general knowledge that most 
 of those parts average about 18 feet at low water. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Is it five hundred miles from Macon to Savannah ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. It must.be quite circuitous ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; all those rivers are very crooked. They are gene- 
 rally about double the length of the right line between terminal points. 
 
 Question. You say that is navigable now for steamboats? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; up to Hawkinsville. But there has never been an 
 attempt made to improve that river, and there are a great many snags 
 and bars that could easily be removed, and, once opened, it could be 
 easily kept so. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Question. Do not steamers now carry cotton from Hawkinsville to 
 Savannah '? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; and it has been said that it is not many years 
 since they did the same from Macon. The upper part is not used now, 
 except for a few flats. 
 
 Question. The uncertainty, in your opinion, as to whether the canal 
 would terminate at Macon or go on to Hawkinsville arises simply from 
 the fact that you have not surveyed that line ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 761 
 
 Answer. Simply from that ; and so, in making the estimate, I made 
 it large enough to cover an extreme case. The canal, of course, costs 
 four or five times as much as slack-water navigation. The estimate 
 covers the extension to Hawkinsville. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Have you examined the question of the diminution of the 
 supply of water in the Gulf States, whether the fall of water since the 
 country has been cleared up has been diminished ? 
 
 Answer. I have made no examination of it. For one reason, it has 
 not occurred to me, and I do not think it can be ascertained anyhow at 
 present, because sufficiently full statistics cannot be had. 
 
 Question. Have you heard any statements of that kind as to the dim- 
 inution of the water in the streams in the cotton States ? 
 
 Answer. I was told at Macon that boats used to come up to that 
 poiDt which are now compelled to stop at Hawkinsville. 
 
 Question. Is that the only fact you know about that ? 
 
 Answer. That is the only point I know anything about. 
 
 Question. Whether that is by diminution of water or not you do not 
 know ? 
 
 Answer. I do not. 
 
 Question. Tou know on the Ohio and all the upper rivers that the 
 supply is conceded to be gradually diminishing? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. I suppose that was the result of civilization, the 
 development of the country, and the cutting away of the forests. 
 
 Question. Tou have given now the distances of each section of this 
 proposed improvement ? 
 
 Answer. I believe I have. 
 
 Question. You refer to your report of what year 1 ? 
 
 Answer. My report upon this route is contained in the report of the 
 Chief of Engineers for 1872, at page 509. You will find, by examining 
 that report, that the estimate amounts to about $34,000,000. That pro- • 
 vided for a canal — not slack- water navigation — from Rome to the mouth 
 of Owl Creek, fifty-three miles above Rome. We have since ascertained 
 that we can fit that for slack- water navigation at a reduction of $2,000,000 
 below the cost of the canal. That estimate also included — because we 
 had no positive information on the subject — an expenditure of $1,000,000 
 from the mouth of the Altamaha to Brunswick. No survey had been 
 ordered of that portion, and all that could be obtained in the way of 
 information was from the map. Map measurements are, of course, un- 
 certain. We know that that route is nearly open as it is ; and it would* 
 probably now not take over $50,000 to open it behind the sea islands to 
 Brunswick. My report particularly states, however, where these amounts 
 are mentioned, the reasons why they are given, that they have not been 
 surveyed, and are made up from the best information in my possession. 
 
 By the Chairman : „ 
 
 Question. Your report is based on the present prices and cost of 
 labor ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. They are taken rather larger — the prices through- 
 out^ — than the prices that are paid on rivers now and that are paid on the 
 railroads. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 ■ Question. You speak of your report. Was there a previous report 
 made to this f 
 ' Answer. No, sir. 
 
762 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Question. I see you ascend after you cross over from the Tennessee 
 up to Rome! 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. What is the elevation above the sea? 
 
 Answer. After leaving Rome, do you mean 1 
 
 Question. Yes, sir. . 
 
 Answer. The summit-level on the Georgia route is about 1,000 teet, 
 or a little over, above tide- water; but it is only about 700 feet above the 
 level of the river at Macon. 
 
 Question. What is it above the Ohio? 
 
 Answer. I have no means of comparing it with the Ohio. Those rivers 
 fall so irregularly and uncertainly. I have no means of giving you the 
 desired information. 
 
 Question. Your survey did not reach to the Ohio down the Ten- 
 nessee ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. But in those long stretches of river we cannot tell 
 what the fall is except by using a level. There are hundreds of miles 
 the fall of which cannot be ascertained except by the use of instru- 
 ments, and our. measurements are only made where there are serious 
 obstructions. 
 
 Question. Did you gauge as to the supply of water on your summit- 
 level ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. You have no doubt about that ? 
 
 Answer. None at all. The Chattahoochee will furnish the supply for 
 the summit-level of the Georgia route. I do not recollect the amounts 
 precisely, but that also is given in my report. The supply both for the 
 Georgia' branch and for the branch between the Tennessee and the Coosa 
 is given in full in my report of 1872. 
 
 Question. Do you have more than the one tunnel which you speak of, 
 of 3,200 feet ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; that is all. We have one very deep cutting across 
 the Sand Mountain, and 10 feet deeper we would convert it into a 
 tunnel. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. Does your estimate of $36,000,000, after deducting these 
 charges, cover the entire expense from the Ohio to the Atlantic ? 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; it makes about $4,000,000 for river improvements. 
 
 \ By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Question. Did you &dd a per cent, for contingencies after making your 
 estimate ? 
 
 Answer. That was done in each case, varying from 10 to 20 per cent. ; 
 10 per cent, where the matter was easy and 20 per cent, where it was 
 difficult. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 Question. Twenty per cent, on the gross estimates ? 
 Answer. On two or three sub-estimates. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. Is the Coosa River navigable down to Mobile at present ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; it is navigable from Rome down to Greensport, 
 about twelve miles below the canal outlet on the Coosa. Then for one 
 hundred and thirty-five miles it is not navigable. It is a series of reefs, 
 
TRANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOARD. 763 
 
 similar to those in the Tennessee at Muscle Shoals. There is no navi- 
 gation in the Coosa until you get down to Wetumpka. 
 
 Question. How far is that place above Mobile ? 
 
 Answer. I think it is about four hundred miles. The distance from 
 Rome to Mobile is seven hundred miles, I know. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Tou have made no estimates of the probable costs of im- 
 proving the Coosa f 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; I have that survey made ; but it has nothing to do 
 with this special canal-route. That, however, is contained in the same 
 report. I surveyed the Coosa River from Wetumpka to Greensport. 
 
 Question. Do you remember the estimated costs for that improve- 
 ment * 
 
 Answer. I think it was about two and a half millions of dollars. 
 
 Question. That improvement would give Mobile the same facilities as 
 it would Brunswick, would it not? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. Boats have passed from the Tennessee River to 
 Mobile, hauled across a portage at Oostenaula to the Coosa, and during 
 very high stage of water have passed over the obstructions in the 
 Coosa ; but no boat ever could come up over them in their present 
 condition. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. Did you state rue miles of canal upon your summit-level ? 
 
 Answer. I did not give the length of the summit-level of the canal. 
 It is about thirty-three miles, that is, the Georgia summit-level. The 
 dimension given to the locks permits the passage of boats that are 
 larger than any now in use on the Brie Canal. The largest used there 
 are about 240 tons capacity. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Do you remember the entire lockage on the canal. ? 
 
 Answer. The amount of lockage in the Muscle Shoal Canal would be 
 134 feet. That is a part of this route. It falls 134 feet in thirty-six 
 miles. The lockage on the Sand Mountain portion would be 864 feet. 
 The lockage ascending to the summit-level of the Georgia portion would 
 be 210 feet, and descending from the summit would be about 700 feet. 
 I cannot recall exactly what that is, but the report shows it precisely. 
 That would give just about 1,900 feet in all. 
 
 Governor Smith asked me some time ago to send him a communica- 
 tion upon this subject, which I have done. For the information of the 
 committee I beg leave to read that communication to them. It is as 
 
 follows : 
 
 United States Engineer Office, 
 
 Chattanooga, Tenn., December 22, 1873. 
 
 Governor : In compliance with the wish expressed by you several moDths ago, I 
 have the honor to submit, herewith, some considerations upon the proposed line of 
 water-communication between the Mississippi River and the Atlantic Ocean, by way 
 of the Tennessee, Coosa, Ocmulgee, and Altamaha Eivers, and connecting canals, the 
 surveys for which were ordered by Congress in March and April, 1871, were conducted 
 under my supervision, and were reported upon by me, under date of May 25, 1872. 
 The report is to be found in the report of the Chief of Engineers, contained in the report 
 of the Secretary of War, accompanying the President's message for 1872. 
 
 The most of the views herein given were presented by me to the convention which 
 met at Atlanta in May last, in response to your call as governor of the State of Georgia ; 
 and I shall quote freely from the remarks then made by me. 
 
 The idea of opening this route had its origin in the efforts which have been made 
 for some years past by the great grain-producing regions of the Northwest to secure 
 
764 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOABD. 
 
 other and cheaper outlets for their enormous crops than those now existing, and in the 
 conviction that water routes still furnish the cheapest known modes of conveyance. 
 
 A "lance at the map of the United States will show that at present there are hat 
 two all-water routes from the valley of the Mississippi to the sea-hoard. One, all nat- 
 ural— the Mississippi Eiver; the other, partly natural, partly artificial— the route by 
 the great lakes and the Hudson Eiver, and the canals of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and 
 
 But there are two other points, and only two, where the tributaries of the Missis- 
 sippi approach so nearly the head-waters of rivers that flow into the Atlantic, that a 
 comparatively small amount of canaling would connect them, thus giving two addi- 
 tional all-water routes between the Mississippi Valley and Atlantic Coast. 
 
 These two points are where the Alleghany range separates the James Eiver from 
 the Kanawha, in the one case, and the rivers of Georgia from the Tennessee, in the 
 
 By the former connection, an all-water route would be opened from the Mississippi 
 through the Ohio and Kanawha Eivers and the proposed canal across the mountains, 
 to the James, and down the James Eiver to Chesapeake Bay, and a port at Norfolk. 
 
 By the latter, an all-water route would be opened from the Mississippi, through the 
 Ohio and Tennessee Eivers, and the proposed canal between the Tennessee and Coosa 
 Eivers, or their branches, thence up the Coosa to Rome, Georgia, from Rome by canal 
 and slack-water navigation to Macon, Georgia, and down the Ocmulgee and the Alta- 
 rnaha Eivers to the Atlantic and a port at Savannah, Brunswick, or Darien. 
 
 Both schemes are old — the former being attributed to the far-sightedness of our first 
 President, Washington. 
 
 The latter was certainly talked of thirty years ago, although the thing then proposed 
 was to connect the Tennessee with the Savannah River directly. 
 
 Both routes have been examined under orders of the General Government ; both have 
 been found practicable, and estimates of the cost of opening them have been furnished. 
 
 It is with this latter only that I have to do. 
 
 The route as proposed, begiuning at the month of the Ohio River, is as follows, viz : 
 Up the Ohio to the Tennessee, up the Tennessee, passing Muscle Shoals by a canal 
 thirty-eight miles long, to the mouth of Short Creek, two miles and a half above Gun- 
 tersville, Ala., the lowest latitude reached by the Tennessee ; up Short Creek, across 
 Sand Mountain, and down Will's Creek to the Coosa, fifty and one-half miles, thirty- 
 three of which would be by canal and seventeen and a half by slack-water ; from the 
 mouth of Will's Creek, two miles and a half below Gadsden, Ala., up the Coosa to 
 Rome, Ga. ; from Rome up the Etowah Eiver by slack-water, to the mouth of Owl 
 Creek, fifty-three miles; from the mouth of Owl Creek, up the valley of Little Eiver, 
 across the Chattahoochee plateau, (crossing the Chattahoochee by an aqueduct 117 
 feet high,) down the Yellow and Ocmulgee Eivers to Macon, one hundred and fifty-ei^ lit 
 and a quarter miles; thence down the Ocmulgee and Altamaha Eivers to the sea, n dis- 
 tance of twelve hundred and eighty-eight miles, three hundred of which is by canal aud 
 slack-water, (two hundred and twenty-nine and one-quarter canal, seventy mid one- 
 half slack-water,) and the remainder by river. If the canal should be extended beyond 
 Macon, as far as Hawkinsville, the proportions would become about as follows, viz : 
 Two hundred and seventy-five miles of canal, seventy of slack-water, and nine hundred 
 and forty-three of river. The total length of canal and slack-water navigation com- 
 bined, then, will be from five to fifty miles shorter than the main line of the Erie 
 Canal, while the cost of building it, together with the cost of improving the river 
 portions of the route, will be between three and four millions of dollars less than the 
 cost of constructing the main line of the Erie Canal enlarged. 
 
 The canal around the Muscle Shoals, apart from the duty which it is inteuded toper- 
 form as a link in this proposed chain of water-communication between the Mississippi 
 River and the Atlantic Ocean, is designed to overcome the great obstacle which these 
 shoals interpose to the continuous navigation of the Tennessee, and should, therefore, 
 he adapted to the passage of the largest steamers ever likely to be employed upon it, 
 in order that the valley of the Upper Tennessee, so rich in agricultural and mineral 
 resources, may no longer, for want of cheap and easy water-communication with the 
 great centers of wealth and population in the Mississippi Valley, be retarded in its 
 development and cut off from the advantages enjoyed by all the other regions which 
 are watered by great tributaries of the Mississippi. 
 
 The proposed dimensions of this canal are as follows : 100 feet wide at the, water-sur- 
 face, with passing recesses at intervals for the use of the largest steamers ; 6 feut deep ; 
 lock chambers 60 feet wide and 300 feet long between miter-sills. The limit of width is 
 fixed by certain local conditions. 
 
 The proposed canal between the Tennessee and the Coosa Eivers will also, besides 
 serving as a link in the samo great chain, have another duty to perform; for in con- 
 nection with the improvement of the Coosa., it will open direct water-couimunication 
 between the valley, of the Tennessee and the rich cotton and mineral legions ol Ou- 
 tral and Northern Alabama, and will furnish a short aud easy water-route from Eas- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 765 
 
 tern Tennessee and Northern Georgia and Alabama to Mobile and the Gulf of Mexico. 
 For this reason it would have been well to have designed this canal also for the pas- 
 sage of large river-steamers ; but, unfortunately, the narrowness and crookedness of 
 the rocky valleys through which this canal must pass render this impracticable except 
 at a cost out of all reasonable proportion to the benefits likely to be attained by its 
 accomplishment ; and we are restricted, therefore, to arranging it for the passage of 
 canal-boats or barges of ordinary capacity, and of the steam-tugs designed for moving 
 them. 
 
 The dimensions given to this canal will determine the dimensions to be given to the 
 canal from the mouth of Owl Greek to Macon ; for it would be manifestly useless to 
 give the latter any greater capacity than the former. 
 
 It is designed to improve the river portions of the route so that during the dry sea- 
 son, or season of lowest water, 3 feet water may always be carried over the bars and 
 shoals. To attempt to give a greater depth during this season would increase the cost 
 too seriously ; for with increase of depth the number of obstacles and the difficulty of 
 removing them iucrease almost in geometrical proportion. During the remainder of 
 the year there will be no difficulty in carrying 5 or o' feet water over the same portions, 
 and the depth of the canal should not exceed this. 
 
 By making the canal trunk 70 feet wide at the water-surface and 5 feet deep, with 
 lock-chambers 27 feet wide and 135 feet long between miter-sills, we permit the passage 
 of boats 120 feet long by 26J feet beam. If these draw 12 inches wheu empty, (a lib- 
 eral allowance,) they will have a capacity wheu loaded down to a draught of 4 feet of 
 about three hundred tons — equivalent to about ten thousand bushels of grain; and during 
 the season of low water, when their draught must be limited to 3 feet, their carrying ca- 
 pacity will be about one hundred and ninety-eight tons, or six thousand six hundred 
 bushels. 
 
 The smaller grain-barges made use of on the Upper Mississippi have an average 
 capacity of four hundred and fifty tons, and are about 150 feet in length and 28 feet 
 beam, with a draught of 5-J feet wheu fully loaded. It would seem to be very desira- 
 ble to give the canals now under consideration such dimensions as would permit the 
 passage of these Upper Mississippi barges ; but the excessive crookedness of their 
 courses, involving numerous comparatively sharp turns, makes it necessary to reduce 
 the lengths of the boats as much as possible, and the dimensions before given have 
 been arrived at. These differ slightly from those first proposed, iu having the lock- 
 chambers longer and narrower. 
 
 The extreme tonnage of the boats passing through the Erie Canal is, according to 
 the last published reports, about two hundred and forty tous, while their average load 
 is about two hundred, and ten or twenty tons. The average cargo, however, for the 
 past ten years, has varied from one hundred and fifty to one hundred and eighty tons; 
 less, it will be observed, than our proposed canal can carry through, at the lowest stage 
 of water. The locks on the Erie Canal are 110 feet long between miter-sills, and 18 
 feet wide, permitting the passage of boats 97 or 96 feet long by 17-J feet beam. 
 
 I desire here to call attention to a curious and interesting fact, going to show that 
 the largest boats are not always the best for eaual-navigation. The Delaware and 
 Earitan Canal, which forms a link of the inland line of water-commnnicatiou between 
 the cities of New York and Philadelphia, is of the following dimensions, viz : eighty 
 feet wide at the water-surface ; average depth, 9 feet ; locks, 220 feet long and 24 feet 
 wide. The largest horse-boats plying upon this canal can carry four hundred and fifty 
 tons, but the average actual cargo is about two hundred and ten tons. Mr. John S. 
 Hillis, of the firm of W. P. Clyde & Co., of Philadelphia, who was formerly superin- 
 tendent of the Delaware and Raritan Canal, stated to the New York commissioners of 
 canals as the result of his experience, that the most economical boat or barge for this 
 canal is 110 feet long, by 23 feet 3-inches beam, carrying three hundred tous. Boats 
 140 l'eet long and carrying five hundred tons have been tried, but on account of extra 
 expense of crew to meet the increased difficulty of management, were not found eco- 
 nomical. 
 
 The auditor of the canal department of the State of New York, in his report for the 
 
 fiscal year ending September 30, 1872, says : " From the experience of the season of 1872, 
 
 our canals in their present condition are equal to all the requirements likely to be de- 
 
 ' mauded of them in 1873, and have no rival on the score of cheap transportation at the 
 
 present time." 
 
 We may rest satisfied, then, that the three-hundred ton boats which would be able 
 to pass through our proposed canal when complsted are the largest that can be eco- 
 nomii ',?ly bandied under the present system of towing. 
 
 I te\ low to call your attention to a question which has been frequently asked of 
 late years, and which, though easy enough to answer by those who have taken the 
 trouble to investigate the subject, finds few supporters among the public at large : and 
 that is whether in these days of railroads it is worth while to build canals at all ? 
 Whether railroads cannot carry freight as cheaply or more cheaply than it can be car- 
 ried by canal ? 
 
766 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 High engineering authority has said " that railways have entirely superseded, and will 
 in future prevent the extension of, canal or water carriage as a means of ordinal y trans- 
 port," and the remark is literally true, for no one would thmk of constructing nowa- 
 days a canal for ordinary purposes of transportation, however great might be the facil- 
 ities for doing so. But there may be special and exceptional reasons which may not 
 only justify but compel the construction of canals, as in the case under discussion, 
 where extensive independent navigable streams may be united by canals m such a 
 manner as to form one continuous line of water-communication which will be used for 
 commercial .purposes. It cannot be supposed for an instant that Stephenson intended 
 to deny the propriety of building canals for such purposes. His book was written in 
 England, where no such contingency exists, and the remark evidently refers to short 
 lines of canal which do not form links of extended lines of water-communication. It is 
 quite possible that over even these freight may be carried much more cheaply than by 
 rail, but there are certain objections to them, such as the danger of breaks, and the dif- 
 ficulty and cost of their repair, but chiefly the amount of time lost in transportation, 
 that render their sunersedure certain in a great majority of cases. 
 
 I shall now proceed to show from ascertained facts the relative cost of conveying 
 freight by canal and by rail. 
 
 More than two years ago the State of New York offered a reward of 1100,000 for the 
 " practical and profitable introduction upon the canals of steam, caloric, electricity, 
 or any motor other than animal power for the propulsion o boats," and appointed a 
 commission of well-known gentlemen to investigate and report upon the subject. The 
 very able and thorough report of their engineer, Professor D. M. Greene, of Troy, New 
 York, discusses very fully the question of the relative expense of moving canal-boats by 
 horses or by steam, and also the cost of carrying freight by rail ; and being based upon 
 a long series of observations upon the workings of the New York canals, and upon 
 sworn official statements of the New York and Pennsylvania railroads, it maybe 
 accepted as correct. 
 
 Taking up two or three of the best managed northern roads, viz, the Lake Shore and 
 Michigan Southern, the New York Central and Hudson River Railroads, and the Penn- 
 vania'Gentral, it is found from their published reports for 1870 and 1871 that the aver- 
 age cost for fuel, maintenance, repairs of machinery, and operating expenses of 
 these roads, (including the Erie and excluding so much of the Lake Shore and Michigan 
 Southern as lies outside of the States of New York and Pennsylvania,) all being trunk- 
 lines with moderate grades, was $1.38f per train per mile. 
 
 Taking two hundred and forty tons as the average load east on one of these first- 
 class lines like the New York Centra], having ruling grades of 20 feet in the direction 
 of greatest movement, and one-half that amount as the average load west, we have an 
 average load for both directions of one hundred and eighty tons per train, which is 
 actually fifty-three tons more than the average on the New York Central and Hudson 
 River Railroads for 1871 ; and this, at the average rate above mentioned, viz, $1.38f 
 per train-mile, gives 7.704 mills as the cost per ton per mile for maintenance, repairs 
 of machinery, fuel, and operating expenses. 
 
 The interest upon the total cost of these roads and their equipments at 7 per cent., 
 divided by the whole amount of their ton mileage, g^ves 4.593 mills per ton per mile, 
 to cover interest, and we have, therefore, 12.296 mills per ton per mile to cover the whole 
 cost of fuel, repairs, maintenance, operating expenses, and interest at 7 per cent. The 
 late actually charged upon the Lake Shore and Michigau Southern Railway in 1870 
 was 1| cents, and in 1871, one and thirty-nine hundredths of a cent per ton per mile. 
 Upon the Pennsylvania Central the cost of transportation in 1871, exclusive of interest, 
 8.074 mills per ton per mile. Adding the rate before given for interest, the cost for 
 fuel, repairs, maintenance, operating expenses, and interest, amounts to 13.332 mills 
 per ton per mile, while the charge was actually 13.57 mills. 
 
 If a road were used exclusively for freight purposes so that trains might be run, say, 
 every twenty minutes, the ton mileage might be increased fivefold over the amount 
 given above, and the entire cost per ton per mile, including interest at 7 per cent., 
 might he reduced to 9.235 mills per ton per mile ; and it is the belief of the able chief en- 
 gineer of the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Railway that with an additional, or 
 third track, on a road of such length, grades, and curvatures as his, that freight might 
 be carried at three-quarters of a cent, per ton pel mile. 
 
 Here, then, we have what has been actually accomplished by railroads, and what it 
 is believed that they can accomplish under the most favorable circumstances. It is 
 not pretended that any such results can be attained on ordinary roads. Here in the 
 South rates, instead of being a fraction of a cent or a cent and a fraction, vary from 
 2 cents to 2£ cents per ton per mile. 
 
 Now let us see what has been done on the canals. 
 
 Under the rules laid down by the canal commissioners three steamers made each 
 three round-trips from Buffalo and Troy ; while eight others made partial trips, but 
 began them too late in the season to admit of their completing them as required by 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 767 
 
 the commissioners. The steamers were required to carry full loads in one direction 
 and half loads in the other. 
 
 The results were as follows : The cost by horse-towage, including interest on outlay 
 at 7 per cent., maintenance at 10 per cent., cost of towing, cost of crew of six persons, 
 was 4.464 mills per ton per mile. Where the horses were owned by the boat it was 
 4.1 mills per ton per mile. If the boat ran light on its return trip the cost was in- 
 creased about one mill. 
 
 The cost by steam-towage, including interest at 7 per cent., cost of maintenance at 
 10 per cent., cost of crew of six persons, fuel, oil, tallow, waste, was 3.28 mills per ton 
 per mile. If the steamer carried one hundred tons west the rate would be reduced to 
 2.73 mills per ton per mile. 
 
 The report goes on to say that if the canal were kept in the best condition, with full 
 depth of water, and freed from obstructions such as grass, weeds, &c, the rate by 
 steam-power would be reduced to 2.68 mills per ton per mile, a reduction of 50 per cent, 
 below the cost of towing by horses, and this includes, be it remembered, not only all 
 actual outlay except tolls, but the cost of maintenance and repairs, and 7 per cent, 
 interest on the first cost. 
 
 Now, put these figures face to face, and we have the cost of moving freight per ton 
 per mile as follows : 
 
 Mills. 
 
 By rail, under the most favorable circumstances 9.235 
 
 By canal, horse-towage, without toll 5. 039 
 
 By canal, steam-towage, without toll 2. 68 
 
 Adding the canal tolls, these rates become — 
 
 By canal, horse-towage 67 per cent, of the railroad rate 6. 89 
 
 By canal, steam-towage 45 per cent, of the railroad rate 4. 018 
 
 Even supposing that under the favorable conditions mentioned by the chief engi- 
 neer of the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Railway, the rate might actually be 
 reduced to three-quarters of a cent a ton per mile, this would still be in excess of the 
 canal rates either by steam or horse towage, including tolls, while at the same time 
 these latter include all the elements of expense covered by the first, viz, repairs, main- 
 tenance, cost of operating, and interest at 7 per cent. 
 
 This must be regarded as conclusive as to the relative cost of the carriage of freight 
 by water and by rail, and I may add that these results are confirmed by the experience 
 of the English and French canals. 
 
 The estimated cost of the opening of this route, as given in my report upon the sub- 
 ject, was $39,900,000, divided as follows : 
 
 Muscle Shoals Canal $3,676,000 
 
 Sand Mountain Canal 11,570,607 
 
 Georgia Canal -■ 20,435,684 
 
 Total for canals from actual survey 35, 662, 291 
 
 For the improvement of the river portions of the route, obtained from the best in- 
 formation I could' obtain, (not from actual survey,) $4,000,000. 
 
 It is to be borne in mind that this survey and examination was but a preliminary 
 one, intended only to ascertain whether it was practicable to open such a route, and 
 what would be its probable cost. 
 
 It was not intended to fix the exact route or to determiue positively the mode of its 
 construction. These are questions which should be deferred until it is actually deter- 
 mined that the route should be opened, when a very complete system of surveys 
 should be undertaken, with the view of deciding what especial route and what method 
 of construction would be absolutely the best. 
 
 It has already been ascertained that a material reduction below the original esti- 
 mate can be made; for instance, by adapting the Etowah River between Rome and 
 Cartersville to slack-water navigation, permitting the passage of such steamers as now 
 ply on the Coosa below Rome instead of canaling it, a reduction of nearly §3,000,000 
 would be effected; and the cost of a canal connection froni the Altnmaba to Bruns- 
 wick, Ga., included in the first estimate, would be reduced nearly $1,000,000. 
 
 The reason for these. differences is found in the fact that, of this whole line of nearly 
 thirteen hundred miles, Congress had made appropriations for and had ordered sur- 
 veys of only about three hundred miles ; and of the remaining portions, it was not 
 known certainly, in these instances whether canaliug would have to be resorted to or 
 not • and under this doubt, the possible cost of this work was included, in order that 
 the estimate should certainly cover the cost of opening the whole route, and that 
 there might be no necessity in the future for going beyond the amount originally esti- 
 mated. We know now that we may reduce the estimate $4,000,000, all of which reduc- 
 tion comes out of the estimated cost of the canal portions of the route. 
 
768 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 I may say here that for the reason just given, namely that the eBti f^ f 6 J^^f^ 
 to absolutely cover the cost of construction, the scale of prices adopted was a very 
 liberal one-much in excess of prices commonly obtained for work on railroads ana on 
 
 11 And"n1Jw rwotd in respect to the relative merits of the various all- water routes from 
 the Mississippi to the sea, existing and proposed. It is certain that all are neeaeu, 
 and with the lapse of years that need will become still more imperative. All the water- 
 routes, then, that can be opened' must be opened, and railroads m their best torm must 
 lend their aid. It is a mistake to suppose that there is any natural antagonism between 
 these two great modes of conveyance. The one helps the other. The lighter and more 
 valuable products of the industry of the country will move by rail ; the coarser and 
 heavier products by water when they can. The Erie Canal, by building up Central New- 
 York, made the New York Central Railroad possible, and the business ot that road at 
 this day far exceeds the most sanguine anticipations of its founders, while the traffic 
 on the canal has grown side by side with it from 1,100,000 tons in 1837 to 6,500,000 
 tons in 1871. . 
 
 At the rate at which the production of gram has increased withm the past few years 
 there will be work enough in the next decade for all the canals and railroads that can 
 be built. 
 
 Taking Saint Louis, which has made itself and which will remain the center of trade 
 of the Mississippi Valley, as a starting-point, the distance to New York by way of the 
 Illinois. Michigan, and Erie Canals, the great lakes and the Hudson River, is one thou- 
 sand nine hundred and sixty miles, about six hundred of which is by canal. 
 
 From Saint Louis to Brunswick, Ga., by the Georgia route, is about one thousand five 
 hundred miles, which is about fifty miles less than the distance by water from Chicago 
 to New York, about three hundred of which is by canal, a difference in its favor of 
 three hundred miles of canal and about one hundred and sixty of river navigation. 
 
 By way of the Ohio canals, the distau.ce from Saint Louis to New York is about 
 eighteen' hundred miles, six hundred of which consist of canal. The Georgia route 
 has about three hundred miles less of canal, while the river portions of the two routes 
 are about the same in length. 
 
 By the James River and Kanawha route, the distance from Saint Louis to Norfolk is 
 about the same as the distance from Saint Louis to Brunswick by the Georgia route ; 
 and the former has four hundred and eighty-six miles of canal and slack- water naviga- 
 tion against but three hundred by the latter route, while at the same time it requires 
 nearly double the amount of lockage required by the latter. The estimated cost of 
 opening the latter route, moreover, is more than §12,000,000 less than the estimated cost 
 of opening the James River and Kanawha route, while providing for the passage of 
 boats of an equal capacity. In addition, the Georgia route will never be closed either 
 by ice or by drought. 
 
 By the Mississippi, the distance between Saint Louis and New Orleans is twelve 
 hundred miles — nil river — with a hundred and ten miles of river additional to reach 
 the sea; altogether uearly two hundred miles less than the distance from Saint Louis 
 to the sea by the Georgia route. But a vessel loading at New Orleaus for Europe has 
 nearly a thousand miles farther to go than one loading at Savannah for the same desti- 
 nation, and has, moreover, to risk the dangers of the passage of tho Florida straits ; 
 dangers, the character of which you will hotter comprehend when I inform you that 
 the insurance on cargoes shipped from the Gulf ports to Europe is nearly double that 
 charged by the underwriters for similar shipments from the South Atlantic ports, 
 while the difference in the rates of freight to Europe from New Orleaus, 
 and from Savannah, varies from one-eighth to one-quarter of a penny a pound on cot- 
 ton, and proportionately on tobacco, which corresponds to a difference of from §5 to 
 $10 per ton ; which again, for grain, would make a difference of from 15 to 30 cents a 
 bushel. And even with this difference in their favor, ship-masters will not takefreights 
 to and from the Gulf ports, if tiiey can avoid it. 
 
 By the lake route, navigation is closed by ice during five months of the year, and 
 all the capital invested in boats lies idle during that period, and of course tho interest 
 upon it has to be made up by the freight-charges of the remaining seven months. 
 
 By the James River and Kanawha route a similar difficulty must be experienced, 
 . though of shorter duration. 
 
 By the New Orleaus route, corn, notwithstanding all that is said to the contrary, is 
 injuriously affected by the heat and moisture. The remark which commonly accom- 
 panies the denial of this assertion, "that California grain iu its passage to Europe 
 crosses the equator twice and yet is not injured," is explained by the fact, well known 
 to grain-dealers, that the California grain, owing to the climate of California, becomes, 
 completely dried before it is garnered, and as heating and souring is due entirely to tho 
 moisture contained in the grain itself, where that moisture does not exist these ill 
 results do not occur. 
 
 By tho Georgia route, navigation from Paducah to the sea would be open the entire 
 year, and would be closed to Saint Louis for only about ten weeks in the year. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 769 
 
 I am justified, then, in saying, as I said in my report upon this route, that "while 
 it enjoys every advantage possessed by the other routes, it is superior to them all in 
 this, that it will never be obstructed by ice, will never be rendered impassible by 
 drought, does not descend sufficiently low into the heated region to have its cargoes 
 injured by heat or moisture, will require no rehandling of cargoes between the points 
 of shipment and discharge," and I now add that the length of canaling required in it 
 will be one hundred and twenty miles less than the main line of the Erie Canal. The 
 whole route will cost from three to four millions of dollars less than the main lino of 
 the Erie Canal enlarged, and will, by opening the Muscle Shoals, give an easy water- 
 communication between the magnificently rich mineral regions of Eastern Tennessee 
 and Northern Georgia and Alabama, and every point of the ,| great Mississippi Valley, and 
 by the canal connecting the, Tennessee and the Coosa, will, in connection with the im- 
 provement of that river, op en a clear water-way from the same region to the city of 
 Mobile and the waters of the Gulf. 
 
 More than any other work undertaken within my memory, excepting the construction 
 of the Pacific Railroad and the improvement of the Mississippi River, does this scheme 
 appear to me to be of national importance, and the great States of Georgia, Alabama, 
 and Tennessee will be unjust to themselves if they fail to make every effort in their 
 power to secure its accomplishment. 
 
 Very respectfully, your obedient servant, 
 
 WALTER McFARLAND, 
 
 Major of Engineers. 
 
 Gov. James M. Smith, 
 
 Atlanta, Ga. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. How much additional navigation would the improvement 
 of the Muscle Shoals give to the Tennessee! 
 
 Answer. The Tennessee is navigable from there up to Chattanooga, 
 and when the improvements which we now have in progress are com- 
 pleted, will be navigable up to Knoxville. 
 
 Question. What additional navigation would it give upon the rivers 
 which you cut by this line ? You have mentioned the Coosa. Are 
 there any others ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. » 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 Question. Going back to the Tennessee, how is the transportation 
 now gotten by the shoals % 
 Answer. There is none. It does not pass up and down. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. That four hundred miles of navigation is useless 1 
 Answer. It is not used except by flat-boats. Coal-merchants take 
 their chances every now and then by sending down flats loaded with coal, 
 and at high water vessels sometimes come down if there is any special 
 use for them, and sometimes they come up. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Question. Have they not a railroad near there? 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; the Memphis and Charleston Eoad runs right along 
 it. It is five or six miles from it. 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Question. You spoke of coal ; will this canal route go through the 
 coal-field to any extent 1 
 
 Answer. Not through it, but very near it. It is pretty near the coal- 
 fields in Cahaba, Ala.; that is the nearest point. There are immense 
 coal-fields in Eastern Tennessee, an immense amount of it. Chatta- 
 nooga is about one hundred and forty miles from Guntersville, where 
 the canal connecting the Tennessee and the Coosa would begin. We 
 do not know much about those river distances, and cannot come within 
 49 T S 
 
770 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 fifteen or twenty miles, because, as I say, we have them only from the 
 reports of steamboatmen, who estimate from the time of running. 
 
 Question. Were your observations sufficient to enable you to say that 
 there would be no obstructions from ice? : 
 
 Answer. There would be no obstruction in any part, excepting on the 
 Mississippi. Even up as high as Chattanooga, we never get any ice to 
 obstruct anything. Sometimes there is a thin film there, and those 
 creeks on Sand Mountain sometimes have a thin film formed over them, 
 but not enough to obstruct a boat. 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Your statement about the Muscle Shoals surprises me on. 
 account of the immense fall. If that improvement was made around 
 those shoals, is there any main obstruction in the navigation of the 
 Tennessee River from Paducah to Chattanooga ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. • The next most serious one below is Colbert 
 Shoals, about seventeen miles below Florence. That we have been at 
 work on for a year or so, and it is mentioned in my report. The cost of 
 opening this. route includes the cost of improving that shoal. The four 
 millions applies to all the rivers. 
 
 Question. Is there any obstruction between Muscle Shoals and Chat- 
 tanooga ? 
 
 Answer. There are small affairs. The most serious, in the vicinity 
 of Chattanooga, is what is known as the Suck. 
 
 Question. Are you improving by wing-dams? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; in most places. But there we are trying to in- 
 crease the channels. It is where the river breaks through the moun- 
 tains, and is very narrow. We are taking out the rock a little, and giv- 
 ing a smooth current, as well as we can. 
 
 Question. If those improvements were made on the river you would 
 have navigation to Chattanooga and to Knoxville, and there are several 
 railroads connecting from there to the different parts of the country ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. What are the railroad communications from Chattanooga ? 
 
 Answer. The East Tennessee and Virginia — the Georgia Eoad run- 
 ning up to Bristol, Knoxville, and to Washington ; and the Nashville 
 Eoad, formerly the only through southern route from Louisville ; the 
 Alabama and Chattanooga running down to Meridian, and the Western 
 Atlantic running here ; also, the Memphis and Charleston Eoad, running 
 to Memphis. 
 
 Question. If the Tennessee was improved around the Muscle Shoals, 
 there would be water communication to Chattanooga, and railroad com- 
 munication is already established to all parts of the South ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Question. Then what improvement would be necessary to make it 
 navigable up to Knoxville ? 
 
 Answer. The improvements that are required are slight. They are 
 nearly all reefs of limestone, that would have to be removed, or else 
 wing-dams constructed to increase the depth of the water over them, 
 and that we are now doing. We have done it as far as the money would 
 permit. 
 
 By Mr. WEST : 
 Question. My knowledge of the Tennessee Eiver is that in its com- 
 mercial facilities it is one of the most unreliable of western rivers. Let 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 771 
 
 me ask you again how much water you have in the low-water seasons 
 up to Florence and Tuscumbia, for instance, on the Tennessee ? 
 
 Answer. The trouble, as I have stated, is at those bars or points such 
 as Coalburt Shoals, where you cannot get more than 20 inches of water 
 in the low- water season. The estimate I have made provides for giving 
 three feet during that season. We cannot expect to get more than three 
 feet at those times. 
 
 Question. On an average season you would get three feet, would 
 you'? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. I was going to say in any season, but of course 
 there might be such a thing as an extraordinary drought. 
 
 Question. O, I have known the Tennessee 'closed for nine months, 
 with not over 18 inches in it. How much water have you naturally in 
 the Coosa River by this supposed route ? 
 
 Answer. We will get the same depth, 3 feet. We carry 2£ up now. 
 
 Question. Now, as to the Ocmulgee and Altamaha? 
 
 Answer. That stretch of the Ocmulgee between Macon and Hawkins- 
 ville I do not know anything about; but below that you can get 3 
 feet without any trouble, by cutting out the snags and trees, and mov- 
 ing some of the sand-bars formed by them. On the lower obstructions, 
 the bars and shoals on the Tennessee, I have known them down at Big 
 Bend to have only 23 inches; and the Coalburt Shoals, one season, less 
 than 18 inches. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. I understand you to say that the four millions, or about 
 that sum, was for the improvement of all the rivers, including the Oc- 
 mulgee and the Altamaha. What proportion of that sum for river im- 
 provement belongs to the Tennessee ? 
 
 Mr. Norwood. I think he did not include the Ocmulgee, because he 
 has not surveyed it. 
 
 The Witness. The estimate provided for a canal as far as Hawkins- 
 ville. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Can you state what is your estimate of expense for improv- 
 ing the Tennessee upon your plan 1 
 
 Answer. Do you mean so much of it as would be used by the canal ? 
 We have estimates for the whole river. 
 
 Question. Give it for improvement below the lower end of the Muscle 
 Shoals? 
 
 Answer. Below the lower end of Muscle Shoals it would probably be 
 about a half million dollars ; for the Muscle Shoals about four millions 
 of dollars, and from there up to Knoxville another half, million, being 
 five millions in all. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Are you familiar with the Cumberland ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; it has been recently placed in my charge. It is navi- 
 gable now from the mouth up to Nashville. There is sometimes trouble 
 at Harpeth Shoals and one or two other points. 
 
 Question. Have plans been prepared for their improvement 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; and I think the estimate would take about $190,000. 
 
 Question. What is the volume of water in the Cumberland, compared 
 with the Tennessee ? 
 
 Answer. That I do not know. I never examined it. 
 
772 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Question. Is there any plan for the improvement of the Cumberland 
 above Nashville ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; the civil assistant, Mr. Abert, made a survey of 
 that last year, under General Weitzel,.and there were two estimates 
 furnished, one for improvement to admit of vessels drawing 3 feet, I 
 think. I do not clearly recollect what that amount was. Then there was 
 a scheme to improve it by lock and dam navigation away up to the 
 mountains. That ran up to about $4,000,000, I think. 
 
 Question. I am merely speaking of the wing-dams? 
 
 Answer. I do not recall what that estimate was; but it was somewhere 
 within, I think, about three or four hundred thousand dollars. The 
 survey and examination was made before I had anything to do with it. 
 
 Question. What is the extent of the navigation of the OcmuIgeeEiver 
 from Macon down ? Are there many vessels upon it? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; there are very few; almost none, 1 should think. 
 That is the case with the Tennessee. I do not think there are but two 
 steamers plying on the Tennessee below Florence. I think perhaps 
 there are two or three little steamers. 
 
 Question. I want the extent of navigation; the number of vessels 
 traveling! 
 
 Answer. I think there are two or three steamers only, running be- 
 tween Savannah and Hawkinsville. 
 
 Question. How are the productions about Macon transported to mar- 
 ket? 
 
 Mr. Norwood. They go by Central Eailroad and the Macon and 
 Brunswick Eailroad. 
 
 The Witness. There is a good deal of flat-boat navigation. They 
 carry a good deal from the plantations along the river. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. I wish to get the extent of navigation on the river now iu 
 its present state, as near as you can get at it. 
 
 Answer. I do not think there is anything but merely local trade. I 
 Jo not know, however ; I cannot speak of that. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. There are steamers which run up there except for a 
 short time during the year when there is low water. There is a good 
 deal of cotton that comes down, which is tributary to the banks of the 
 river. 
 
 The Witness. The cotton of Macon and that region goes to Savan- 
 nah by rail. 
 
 Mr. Norwood. In the main it does. But from Hawkinsville it goes 
 down by boat in part and also by rail. The navigation of the Ocmul- 
 gee is obstructed 'portions of the year by those sand-bars, which can 
 be very easily removed. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman, (to the witness:) 
 
 Question. Is there any official report of the condition of the river 
 that you know of? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; not that I know of. It has never been surveyed or 
 examined officially, to my knowledge. The only way I could do was 
 to get old steamboatmen and boatmen living along the bank, and col- 
 lect as much intormation as possible from them. 
 
 Question. Has there ever been any survey of the Coosa Eiver ? 
 
 „ ^T""^ 68 '? 1 ' ° Ver the obstacles fr °m Wetumpka up to Green- 
 port. That has been surveyed and estimated upon. 
 Question. Is that used ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 773 
 
 Answer. No, sir; that portion is not. The Coosa is broken as the 
 Tennessee is, at the Muscle Shoals. There is a fall of 204 feet there in 
 the Coosa Eiver in that distance. 
 
 Question. In what distance 1 
 
 Answer. One hundred and thirty-five miles. 
 
 Question. You would have to have a canal, then, probably the whole 
 distance of the one hundred and thirty-five miles ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; the pools are along there. There are long stretches 
 of four or five miles, with water 50 and 60 feet deep. And then come 
 the reefs of rock, with water tumbling down, may be in some places only 
 a few yards, and some places half a mile, where lock and clam naviga- 
 tion would be required. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. The improvement of the Tennessee at a cost of $5,000,000 
 is for the 3-foot navigation at low water I 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; up to Knoxville. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 Question. What do you say is the fall of Muscle Shoals ? 
 Answer. One hundred and thirty-four feet in thirty-eight miles. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. Around those shoals how much water do you calculate in 
 your canal ? 
 
 Answer. Six feet. 
 
 Question. Does coal now pass down the Tennessee to market? 
 
 Answer. Not below Chattanooga. There are no means to get out. They 
 do not take any down now except for local purposes. Every now and 
 then a coal -dealer will send down three or four flat-boat loads of coal, trust- 
 ing to get one or two of them through the Muscle Shoals, which would 
 amply repay him for the loss of the others. 
 
 Question. On the Lower Tennessee what do the iron furnaces use, 
 coal or wood ? 
 
 Answer. Wood. The furnaces on the Upper Tennessee use coal ; but 
 those on the lower, use charcoal, as do those in Northern Alabama. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Question. Are you certain about the water in the Tennessee being 
 equal to the volume of water in the Ohio ? 
 Answer. No, sir; I cannot say I am certain about that. 
 
 Examination of A. J. McBride.. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Are you well acquainted with the Ocmulgee Eiver ? 
 
 Answer. My knowledge of the river was obtained during the year 
 1866, in the summer and fall. I know nothing of it since that time. 
 
 Question. Please state in what way your knowledge was acquired 
 and'what you know of its capacity for navigation. 
 
 Answer. I was engaged in shipping cotton that year over the river. 
 I sent eight or ten boats from Macon to Darien. That is between 
 Brunswick and Savannah. You go through a sound down there— the 
 name of it I forget— to reach Darien. 
 
 Question. State briefly what you know of its capacity for transporta- 
 tion. 
 
 Answer. I have been thinking about it recently, and there are three 
 
774 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 points, I believe, in the river that during that year were partially ob- 
 structed. The first was about twelve miles above Hawkinsville, in 
 Houston County. The obstruction there was tree-tops and trees. There 
 was nothing like rocks. That was at the first bend of the river. Then, 
 about fifty miles below Hawkinsville, and perhaps a little farther than 
 that, and just below the mouth of the Ocomee, is a very narrow space 
 where there are some rocks that I think partially obstructed navigation 
 at that time. However, I think that that was not a serious objection, 
 except in very low water. Then, at Decaturtown, the Federal troops, 
 at the last of the war, put in some obstructions. I think they have 
 been somewhat in the way of navigation. Those are all of the obstruc- 
 tions, I believe. 
 
 Question. Is there an abundant supply of water there f 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; at both those last places I have mentioned there 
 is an abundant supply. But the rocks somewhat obstruct navigation 
 during the very low water, I believe. They have been running boats 
 over the river all the time until within the last six months, up to Haw- 
 kinsville. They have had two boats: one named the Hardee, and one 
 some other name, which I forget. But about six months ago, I think, 
 1 they found it impossible to get over these obstructions put in by the 
 Federal troops at Decaturtown. I think that is the most serious 
 obstruction in the river now. 
 
 Question. But from your knowledge you would say there was no dim- 
 culty in obtaining an ample supply of water f 
 
 Answer. I think you could obtain 2 feet at any time. We were en- 
 gaged in boating in the summer and fall of 1866, and I remember our 
 boat drew about 20 to 21 inches. I think there is no difficulty now 
 about 2 feet at any time in any part of the river — that is, from Macon 
 down. I know nothing of the river above there at all. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. What was the condition of the river at that time; was it 
 ordinarily low ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; our water-courses in September and October are at 
 their lowest point. I believe that is a rule that obtains almost every 
 year. 
 
 Question. So 24 inches of water, in your judgment, is the depth of 
 that river in the ordiuary season? 
 
 Answer. About 21 inches, I believe. 
 
 A Bystander : I will take the liberty of saying that 1S66 was one of 
 the dryest years we had in ten years. 
 
 Examination of Col. P. H. Eaiford on the subject of the proposed 
 land-locked channel along the shore of the Mexican Gulf, across the 
 peninsula of Florida, and along the sea-board of the Atlantic. 
 
 Colonel Eaiford : 
 
 Mr. Chairman: To elongate the western river system of navigation 
 eastward from the Mississippi to the Atlantic Ocean, and westward to 
 the Rio Grande, is a work easily within the skill of eucjiueers. 
 
 Of the waters and shore-line from the Mississippi River to the At- 
 lantic sea-board, where natural advantages indicate the route for stick 
 an improvement, and with which I am familiar, I beg to invite the care- 
 ful attention of your committee, and its thoughtful consideration of the 
 facts relating thereto, which I shall lay before you. 
 
 With the view of connecting by an inland passage the Mississippi 
 River with the harbors of Mississippi Sound and Mobile Bay, the Sen- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 775 
 
 ate of the United States, on the 11th of March, 1867, directed that 
 information should be obtained as to the cost of opening a channel 
 between that river and Lake Pontchartrain, " of sufficient capacity for 
 first-class steamboat navigation." On the 25th of January-following, 
 the Secretary of War sent to the Senate his report of surveys and esti- 
 mates made on the subject by officers of the Engineer Department of 
 the Army. This report shows that two* routes were examined, one by 
 the way of Bayou Manchac, the Amite Eiver, and Lake Maurepas— an 
 old channel filled up by General Jackson during his defense of New 
 Orleans in 1815; the other from near Oarrolton, ou the Mississippi 
 Eiver direct to Lake Pontchartrain ; the latter route being recommended 
 by the engineer officer who made the survey as the shortest, cheapest, 
 and best. Itsv estimated cost, including locks, flood-gates, and ma- 
 chinery, is placed at $785,936. 
 
 With this short and inexpensive connection made between the Mis- 
 sissippi aud Lake Pontchartrain, the continuation of an almost direct 
 inland channel to harbors of the Atlantic Ocean will be a work of easy 
 and cheap accomplishment ; all of the entire route, with the exception 
 of less than forty miles, would be through tidal waters and natural 
 water courses. The short opening to connect the Missisippi with Lake 
 Pontchartrain will perfect a land-locked passage as far eastward as Bon 
 Secour — an arm of Mobile Bay — one hundred and seventy- four miles 
 from the Mississippi, in an almost direct line toward the nearest point 
 on the Atlantic coast. Prom Bon Secour to the bay of Saint Marks, in 
 Florida, the distance is two hundred and twenty miles ; between which 
 points, parallel with and near the Gulf shore, there is a succession of 
 land-locked sounds, bays, and lagoons, all tidal, which, in the aggre- 
 gate,, make a water line one hundred and ninety miles in length, leaving 
 to be opened by a few short cuts, through sea-marsh and low ground, 
 only about thirty miles of canaling to complete a channel from the Mis- 
 sissippi to Saint Marks, three hundred and eigbty-four miles long, as 
 shown by the map before you. The sheets of water to be utilized in 
 creating this portion of the proposed water-road, are those of Lake Pont- 
 chartrain, the Mississippi Sound, Mobile aud Bon Secour bays, Perdido 
 and Pensacola bays, Santa Rosa Sound, the bays of Choctahatchee and 
 Saint Andrews, Searey's Eiver and LakeWinuco, ApalachicolaBay, Saint 
 George's Sound, Crooked Eiver, and the Ocklockonee, and Shallow Bay, 
 thence in aline due east from Saint Marks, to a point on the Finnahaw 
 Eiver, distant about forty miles, the channel would continue through 
 marsh-land and tide-waters near the Gulf shore. 
 
 Prom the Finnahaw to the point of intersection with the Suwannee 
 Eiver the distance is thirty miles, no portion of which will require a 
 deeper cut than from 10 to 16 feet to make a depth of water sufficient 
 for the largest boats and barges of the western rivers. Fed, as would be 
 the whole line of channel, from the Mississippi to the Suwannee, four 
 hundred and sixty -five miles, by water on a level with the surface of the 
 Gulf, and made by a total cutting of less than ninety miles with the 
 use only of dredging machinery, shows how little labor and money need 
 be expended to connect the navigation of the Mississippi Eiver and its 
 tributaries, as well as all intervening rivers flowing into the Gulf, with 
 that of the Suwannee. Then, to ascend the Suwannee by three or four 
 slack-water dams, about sixty miles above the point where the artificial 
 channel from the west would reach it, will leave but thirty odd miles of 
 canaling between the Suwannee and the Saint Mary's Eiver, to perfect 
 this line of navigation from the Mississippi to the natural inland channel 
 behind the sea-islands of Florida, Georgia, and South Carolina, and to 
 
776 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 touch the harbors of Saint Mary's, Fernandina, Brunswick, Savannah, 
 Port Eoyal, and Charleston, in the States named. The only section, as 
 shown on the map, along the whole line of this proposed artificial 
 channel, which would be above tide water, or the surface of the rivers 
 to be used as partp of the liue, is the intervening thirty-odd miles from 
 the Suwannee to the Saint Mary's Eiver, and between these streams, 
 where the cutting would be done, lies the great Okeefinokee Basin, 
 giving rise to both and possessing an abundant capacity to feed the 
 opening, when made, to connect them for navigation ; the cutting here 
 through sand with clay subsoil will require a summit for the canal bed 
 of only 30 feet, with a maximum cut of 25 feet, and an average cut of 
 
 To reach the surface of the water in this summit-opening from 
 the Suwannee side, not more than three locks will be required, nor 
 more than four in descending to the level of the Saint Mary's Biver on 
 the other. Thus it will be seen how little nature has left undone to- 
 ward the perfection of a channel that would, for all the purposes of 
 commerce, turn the Mississippi and its tributaries, and all intermediate 
 rivers, into several of the best harbors on the Atlantic seaboard, and 
 save to the producers and to the commerce of the Western and the 
 Gulf States eight hundred miles in distance, and all the dangers of the 
 Florida-reef passage which now lies between them and the world's 
 greatest commercial ocean. 
 
 The first grand feature of this enterprise is that, by its accomplish- 
 ment, all the rivers of the Mississippi Valley, and all of those which 
 flow into the Gulf of Mexico on either side of it, from the Bio Grande — 
 if made, as it should be, so far west — to its outlet on the Atlantic coast, 
 will be made for purposes of domestic commerce, simply as one ; that, 
 from any city or landing on the route of this more than thirty thouswid 
 miles of navigable water-courses, steam-tugs and barges may embark 
 with full cargoes, destined to any other of the thousand places lying 
 upon the banks of this unrivaled system of connected water-lines, or 
 they may pass out to harbors of the broad Atlantic to meet the ships of 
 our coasting-trade, or those which come from distant countries in quest 
 of commodities which, by such an improvement, may be so easily and 
 cheaply gathered there. This work should contemplate a free and un- 
 trammeled ingress and egress of steam-barge lines, or any other char- 
 acter of river-craft, from the remotest points of navigation in the west- 
 ern valleys to harbors on the Atlantic coast, without touching the sea, 
 without stoppage, intermediate agencies, taxation, or tolls of any sort. 
 For domestic commercial intercourse, when so perfected, the reach of 
 this system of interior lines of navigation will cover an area of more 
 than two thousand miles square, including the richest valleys and every 
 variety of production known to this country ; and to do all this the cost 
 will not exceed twelve to fifteen millions of dollars. What the practical / 
 effects of such a cut-off from the Western rivers to the Atlantic will/ 
 be is shown by the influences of other works which have been made Pi 
 shorten distances, save dangers, and reduce the carrying cost of com- 
 merce in other countries. In every instance where these advantages 
 have been obtained by artificial works the course of trade has been 
 turned through them. 
 
 If grain can be carried profitably from Saint Louis to New Orleans, 
 twelve hundred miles, by the river, at 7 cents per bushel, and other 
 bulky commodities at like rates, as has been practically demonstrated, 
 it certainly may be carried five hundred and sixty-five miles further 
 through the same character of navigation, and in the same bottoms to 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 777 
 
 the Atlantic Ocean, at a cost not exceeding 10J cents per bushel. In 
 this connection it should be borne in mind that this channel is proposed 
 to be made, at all points and in every respect, as capacious as are the 
 Western rivers themselves, and therefore would be as cheaply and as 
 rapidly traversed by the boats employed on them. 
 
 It is a foregone conclusion, ground into the minds of western producers 
 and western commercial men by the logic of experience, that the mini- 
 mum of transportation cost from the western valleys to Atlantic harbors 
 can never be reached until there is an unbroken and an unimpeded ca- 
 pacious" and untaxed water-line from the rivers of that section to this 
 ocean ; and it is equally as well understood by all intelligent persons 
 who have studied the question, that it is not within the scope of engi- 
 neering power to make such channels, other than along the lake scope 
 of the northern States, or through the sounds, lakes, estuaries, and riv- 
 ers, which lie along the Mexican Gulf coast, and bisect the peninsula of 
 Florida. 
 
 The embryo scheme of many years ago, to cut a canal across the pe- 
 ninsula of Florida, had for its object the shorter and safer passage for 
 ships from the Atlantic to the mouths of the many rivers flowing into 
 the Gulf of Mexico. The plan, as now proposed, is altogether different 
 and is intended to elongate, as stated, the navigation of those rivers to 
 the Atlantic, and thus perfect in a cheaper and better way the intended 
 purposes of the older proposition. 
 
 In many ways, the elongation of the inland system to harbors of the 
 Atlantic possesses advantages over a canal for sea-going ships across 
 the peninsula, if even a sufficiently deep harbor on the Gulf side could 
 have been formed for the entrance of such vessels. In the first place, 
 the cost of a ship canal of 20 feet depth would have been vastly more, 
 mile for mile, than the shallower digging of 6 or 8 feet, required for the 
 boats of the Mississippi and its tributaries ; and then the aggregate 
 length of cutting on the inland channel would be no longer than would 
 have been necessary for an opening across the peninsula, if such a work 
 had been practicable ; within a few miles of the southern extremity of 
 the Okeeflnokee Basin arises the back bone ridge of the peninsula of 
 Florida, and continues south some two hundred and eighty miles to the 
 everglades, with elevations varying from 120 to 237 feet above the level of 
 the sea, and on which for canaling purposes but a limited supply of water 
 can be had, while over the river-elongating route, as I have described 
 it, the line would be wholly tidal, or along natural and sufficient water 
 courses, except as before pointed out, the thirty odd miles through the 
 plateau of the Okeefinokee, and here lies a level plain and natural basin 
 of three thousand square miles to supply all- the water that would be 
 needed to keep a canal over this short Section full. The rain fall of this 
 heavily timbered, yellow pine region is greater than that of any other 
 portion of the United States, except Alaska ; here, during the spring 
 Vionths the fall of rain is from 10 to 12 inches ; during the three summer 
 n/onths, when the loss by evaporation is the greatest, the fall is from 
 23 to 25 inches ; during 'the autumn, from 10 to 12 inches, and in the 
 winter, from 8 to 10 inches, making an annual average rainfall of 55 
 inches of water. 
 
 ■ To vour inquiry, whether the cuts proposed to be made to connect 
 the ti de-basins and estuaries along the Gulf and Atlantic shores would 
 be permanent, I need only poiut out to the committee a few works, long 
 in use of precisely the same character of those which will be required, 
 at points along the line of the land-locked route, and show how they 
 have stood. " Grant's Pass," through a sand-bank and oyster-reef, be- 
 
778 TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 tween Mobile Bay and Mississippi Sound, was cut more than thirty 
 years ago, and has, from that time to the present, continued in use, 
 without other than the first dredging. About the same period, a cut 
 was also made through a neck of sea-marsh, between Cumberland and 
 Nassau Sounds, on the Florida- Atlantic coast, for the purpose of per- 
 fecting an altogether inland route of navigation from Savannah to the 
 Saint John's River of Florida; this opening was originally made only 
 40 feet wide, and 4 feet deep, but has since enlarged, simply by the ebb 
 and flow of the tides, and by the passage of boats through it, to a width 
 of over 100 feet, and to a depth of from 12 to 14 feet, proving that, 
 when opened, these connecting channels between tide-basins are as 
 permanent as those naturally existing, and that they have a tendency 
 to deepen to the depth of the water at their ends. Another artificial 
 channel, three miles long, to connect the Darien and Altamaha Rivers 
 on the coast of Georgia, made under the direction of General Ogle- 
 thorpe, more than a hundred years ago, for the use of small boats, but 
 now employed for the passage of our largest river steamers, may be 
 mentioned as proof of the permanency of such works. 
 
 In corroboration of the statements I have made relative to the inner 
 waters of the Gulf and Atlantic coast-line, which would form much the 
 greater portion of this proposed land-locked water-road, and in regard 
 to the elevations along the central ridge of the Florida peninsula, as 
 well as to the plateau north of its upper end, I have alluded to, as the 
 route of the proposed work, I beg to refer the committee to the maps 
 and reports of the United States Coast-Survey service, and to the hy- 
 drographical and topographical surveys made by engineer officers of 
 the Government through this section, which are on file in the Depart- 
 ments of Washington City; and with special reference to what I have 
 said in regard to the Okeefinokee basin, and its water-supply, you are 
 respectfully referred to the report and survey by Lieutenant Hunter, 
 made in 1857, under an act of the State of Georgia, and now on file 
 among the archives of this State. 
 
 This proposed work, with its feasibility and great value, indorsed 
 and recommended by many of the most eminent engineers of this coun- 
 try, is not now nor has it previously been brought to the attention of 
 Congress, in the interest of any particular State or section, nor in that 
 of individuals or corporations seeking aid and subsidies from the Gov- 
 ernment. Simply upon the superior merits of the plan to accomplish 
 the great object of cheap transportation between the Western States 
 and the Atlantic sea-board, it is now brought to the attention of your 
 committee, specially appointed, to investigate such subjects, with the 
 hope that it will be carried by you to the attention of our national legis- 
 lature, so that, before determining in favor of other works, having the 
 same object in view, that body shall thoroughly understand the merits 
 of this. If skillful investigations shall show, as they undoubtedly will, 
 that a cornvation of all the rivers which flow through the States into 
 the Gulf of Mexico can be formed and carried land-locked and unbroken 
 through an almost direct line to harbors of the Atlantic Ocean, no ques- 
 tion will remain in the minds of disinterested legislators as tothecheap- 
 est, quickest, and most efficieut water-road that can possibly be made 
 between the western valleys and the Atlantic Ocean, nor as to the one 
 that; can be accomplished in the shortest space of time, and give the 
 earliest relief to the embargoed West. 
 
 Nothing could have shown more watchfulness on the part of Presi- 
 dent Grant over the producing interest of the country or over its prepa- 
 rations for defense against a maritime power in case of war, than his 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 779 
 
 recommendation to Congress to look to a land-locked and coast-line water- 
 way as the means ot protecting both. 
 
 Made, as it may be within a single year, wide enough and deep 
 enough for the rapid transit of any boats employed on the western 
 rivers and at less cost than would be required to build a cordon of forti- 
 fications necessary to protect the inlets of our southern sea-coast now 
 exposed, and which would be better protected by floating batteries, 
 moving quickly to points of attack, this free water-road will solve the 
 problem in this country of cheap transportation and national defense; 
 and all at a cost which will not exceed twelve or fifteen millions of dol- 
 lars. 
 
 Examination of Thomas E. Walker, general claim-agent of the 
 Green Line Transportation Company. 
 
 Mr. Walker. Mr. Chairman, we have but two officers. The other is 
 the general agent. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. What are the duties of the claim-agent ? 
 
 Answer. The settlement of all claims which may arise against the 
 line, and a thorough understanding of the rates of freights and so on. 
 
 Question. Please state over what roads the Green Line operates, 
 giving distances and termini. 
 
 Answer. First, the Louisville, Nashville and Great Southern, one 
 one hundred and eighty-five miles, starting from Louisville and reach- 
 ing to Nashville ; the Nashville and Chattanooga, reaching from Nash- 
 ville to Chattanooga, one hundred and fifty-one miles ; the Western and 
 Atlantic, one hundred and thirty-eight miles, reaching from Chatta- 
 nooga to Atlanta ; the Georgia, reaching from Atlanta to Augusta, one 
 hundred and seventy-one miles; the Sort Eoyal, reaching from Au- 
 gusta to Port Royal, which I have not the exact mileage of — it is some- 
 thing over a hundred miles ; the Charleston and Savannah, from Sa- 
 vannah to Charleston, I think, is about one hundred and twelve miles 
 in length. Those are recently in, and I have not the exact mileage. 
 Also, the South Carolina, reaching from Augusta to Charleston, one 
 hundred and thirty-eight miles ; the Charlotte, Columbia and Augusta, 
 reaching from Augusta to Columbia, one hundred miles ; the Wilming- 
 ton, Columbia and Augusta, from Columbia to Wilmington, about one 
 hundred and eighty -five miles; the Macon and Western, from Atlanta 
 to Macon, one hundred miles; Macon and Brunswick, from Macon to 
 Jessup, one hundred and ninety-six miles ; the Atlantic and Gulf, from 
 Savannah to Live Oak, the distance I do not exactly know — it is about 
 one hundred and eighty miles ; the Georgia Central, from Monroe to Sa- 
 vannah, one hundred-and ninety-one miles ; the Atlanta and West Point, 
 from Atlanta to West Point, eighty-seven miles; the Western, from West 
 Point to Montgomery, eighty-seven miles; the Southwestern, from Macon 
 to Eufaula, one hundred and thirty-eight miles; the Saint Louis and Iron 
 Mountain, from Saint Louis to Onion City, two hundred and fifteen 
 miles, as we count it ; the Nashville and Northwestern, from Union 
 City to Nashville, one hundred and eighty-five miles ; the Saint Louis 
 and Southeastern, from Saint Louis to Nashville; the exact mileage 
 of that road I do not recollect; it is something over two hundred miles ; 
 the Selma, Borne and Dalton, from Dalton to Selma, one hundred and 
 ninety miles ; the Atlanta and Bichmond road, from Atlanta to Char- 
 lotte, two hundred and sixty-eight miles. 
 
780 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Question. Are there any other freight lines of the same character in 
 the Southern States "! . 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; there is aline from New Orleans to Atlanta, known 
 as the Mobile and New Orleans line. There is a line by the way of 
 Charleston, a sea-board line, called the Great Southern Fast-freight Line. 
 There is the White Line, the Union Line, &c. The one by Charleston, 
 as I say, is called the Great Southern Fast-freight Line. The other, I 
 think, is the Crescent Line ; Mobile and New Orleans, from New Orleans 
 to Atlanta, and on to Augusta and Charleston. 
 
 Question. Do you know of any others in the Southern States ? 
 
 Answer. I do not. 
 
 Question. Do any of those lines run over the same railroads with your 
 lines? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Over portions of the same; not over the entire route? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. The New Orleans runs over two roads that are in 
 the Green Line. The Great Southern Fast freight Line passes over two 
 roads of the Green Line. 
 
 Question. Are they owned by the same interests f 
 
 Answer. Perhaps I had better explain that the Green Line is not a 
 corporation ; it is a combination of roads. 
 
 Question. Is the other line you speak of running over a portion of 
 the roads you occupy owned by the same combination ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; it is owned by the different corporations. It is a 
 combination of roads. 
 
 Question. It is not in the same combination with yours 1 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. State the principle upon which that combination is formed. 
 
 Answer. These roads meet in convention and agree to furnish a quota 
 of cars, which is based on the amount of revenue derived from the busi- 
 ness over each road. The calculation is made upon that, and each road 
 furnishes a quota of cars. They agree to pay so much mileage per mile 
 or per car for these cars. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Question. When yon say revenue, you mean gross income, do you not ! 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; derived from these freights from the West. They 
 agree to furnish this quota of cars. Upon them they agree to pay the 
 mileage of a cent and a half, or two cents, or whatever it may be. They 
 establish an office, and daily reports are made of the transmission of 
 cars. At the end of the month the mileage statement is made out. 
 
 Question. Where is that office'? 
 
 Answer. It is in Atlanta. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Is the same mileage charged on all the roads ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; it is fixed by the convention of officers. 
 
 Question. What is that mileage where the cars of one road run over 
 another road ? 
 
 Answer. Last year it was a cent and a half. A recent rule fixed it 
 from November 1 to April 1 at 2 cents per car per mile. 
 
 Question. Are all of the cars of the Green Line owned in that way 
 by the several railroads ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. And all in the proportions of the revenue derived from 
 each separate road? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; their quotas are based on revenue. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 781 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Question. Do I understand you per car per mile, or per ton per mile? 
 Answer. Per car per mile ; that is, for the rental or mileage. 
 Question. For the use of the car ? 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Conover : 
 
 Question. Is the quota based on the revenue derived from freight, or 
 freight and passengers combined? 
 
 Answer. From freight alone, and that is through freight. Local 
 freights are Dot included in the combination. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Does your line carry local freight also ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; the individual roads look after that. They have 
 what are known as private cars, not entering into these quotas. 
 
 Question. Do the cars which embrace this combination carry local 
 freights at all? 
 
 Answer. Only from certain points ; that is, from iron-furnaces for west- 
 bound freight. We are returning all cars empty to the West, and, in 
 order to secure business, stop them at the iron-furnaces and load up at 
 low rates. 
 
 Question. When they do carry local freights, how is it arranged ? 
 
 Answer. That is counted ; but, ordinarily, what is known as regular 
 local business is riot much. 
 
 Question. You say a large number of your cars return- empty? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; 1 suppose four-fifths of them. 
 
 Question. What is the freightage from the West ? 
 
 Answer. Mostly produce ; what is known as fourth and fifth class — 
 heavy articles — bacon, flour, hay, corn, &c. 
 
 Question. What proportion would you say that the eastern-bound 
 freight bears to the western ? 
 
 Answer. Do you mean what we call south-bound or west-bound ? 
 
 Question. Yes, sir ? 
 
 Answer. I do not suppose that the west-bound business is one-fifth 
 as great. 
 
 Question. So that five cars out of six would go back empty 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. What is the difference between the charges on your line of 
 fourth-class freight and the cars outside owned by the several roads ? 
 How do your charges compare with the charges upon roads not in the 
 combination ? 
 
 Answer. I hardly know how to answer that, for all of the leading 
 roads to the West are in this combination. 
 
 Question. And there is no through freighf except what is brought by 
 them? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. CoNQVER : 
 
 Question. Is a cargo of freight shipped from the West here neces- 
 sarily sent by the Green Line ? 
 
 Answer. It is for this direction. There is only one other line, opened 
 last year, the south and north road of Alabama, reaching around to 
 Montgomery. By that we lost a very heavy amount of tonnage. They 
 would have to come around up to Atlanta, which would make a long 
 circuit. 
 
782 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Question. There are no through freights shipped from the West to 
 this section except by the Green Line ? 
 Answer. It is all regarded as Green Line freight. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Do you prorate with any water line 1 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; they generally fix what is known as an arbitrary. 
 They exact their own rates, and we have to add that to ours. 
 
 Question. You hate ho running arrangement with them ! 
 
 Answer. We have arrangements by which we protect their through 
 bills— bills guaranteed by them; but we have no regular system of 
 tariffs or prorate. They are generally known with us as arbitrary. 
 
 Question. Can you state the whole number of cars in your combina- 
 tion 1 , • 
 
 Answer. Mr, Eobinson will be able to give you the actual number. 
 The last quota called for fixes it at 2,250. They are not all finished and 
 in running order. That is the maximum number. 
 
 Question. What are your charges from Louisville here ? 
 
 Answer. Nearly all of our business consists of fourth and fifth classes, 
 with a few specials. 
 
 Question. What do you include in fifth class ? 
 
 Answer. All grain. ' Fourth class is bacon, lard, &c. 
 
 Question. The fifth class, then, corresponds to the fourth class on the 
 eastern roads ? 
 
 Answer. I think it does. 
 
 Question. You mean, however, by your fifth class, grain 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; we ship all grain on what is known as fifth class, 
 and all bacon, lard, &c, fourth class. From Louisville to Atlanta fourth 
 class is 68 cents a hundred. That is five hundred and eighty-one miles. 
 Fifth class is 51 cents. 
 
 Question. What is it from Saint Louis here ? 
 
 Answer. Saint Louis and Cincinnati are the same. Fourth class is 
 84, and fifth class 63 cents. The mileage is six hundred and eighty-five 
 miles. 
 
 Question. How do your prices differ year by year ? How do they com- 
 pare this year with the two or three years previous ? 
 
 Answer. Our tariffs at the present time are about the same as they 
 ■were this time last year. Our summer tariffs are always less. 
 
 Question. Why do you make your summer tariffs less than you do 
 your winter tariffs ? 
 
 Answer. The competition is stronger. 
 
 Question. There is no more difficulty in running here in the winter 
 than there is in the summer, I suppose 1 
 
 Answer. Very little ; the time is a little longer. 
 
 Question. What are your tariffs on fourth and fifth class freight from 
 here to Savannah ? • 
 
 Answer. We do not work from here. Our tariffs are all based from 
 what we call initial points in the West. It becomes a question with the 
 roads from here to Savannah. That is what we call a local question. 
 Their tariffs are generally per mile higher than ours. 
 
 Question. From Louisville or Cincinnati to Savannah, state the rates, 
 with the distances. 
 
 Answer. From Louisville to Savannah, seven hundred and seventy- 
 nine miles. I have not the rates here, but can furnish them. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. Will you restate the distance from Louisville to this place? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 783 
 
 Answer. It is four hundred and seventy-four miles from Louisville to 
 Atlanta. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Question. What do you give as the distance from Louisville to Savan- 
 nah 1 
 Answer. Seven hundred and seventy-nine miles. 
 Question. What is the distance from here to Savannah ? 
 Answer. It is two hundred and ninety-four miles. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Have you any means of giving us the local charges on the 
 roads from here to Savannah and from here to Macon 1 
 
 Answer. No, sir; I have not them in my possession. They could be 
 obtained from the different offices very easily. 
 
 By Mr. CONOVER : 
 
 Question. What is the time required to transport through freight 
 between Saint Louis and this city or Savannah ? 
 
 Answer. Without a very heavy press of business, we sometimes make 
 deliveries of freight here the fitth or sixth day after receiving a bill of 
 lading. It is sometimes ten and twelve days during a very heavy press. 
 It is about the same time from Louisville. Some weeks it will come 
 through in five or six days. It is owing to the condition of the line. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. What would you call average time ? 
 
 Answer, I should suppose about six or seven days ; that is, as that 
 line is worked now. They could perfect it, and make it much quicker. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Question. Can you state your average distance per hour? 
 
 Answer. I think the through trains make about eleven or twelve miles 
 an hour on the average. 
 
 Question. When you bring freight from Louisville here you call that 
 through freight 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. As much so as if you carried to the sea-board 1 ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. . 
 
 Question. Does the same ratio of rates hold between freights between 
 the two points I have named, from Louisville to Atlanta or Louisville 
 to Charleston 1 ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. What discrimination do you make 1 ? 
 
 Answer There is a considerable difference. The rates to Charleston 
 and Savannah are regulated by the competition by water. They fix the 
 rate on what is known as the Baltimore line at Cincinnati and Saint 
 Louis to this point, and we have to work to it, no matter what it is, even 
 •if it is 40 cents a hundred; and hence frequently the Charleston and 
 Savannah rates are as low as on the Atlanta road. 
 
 Question. That is to say, frequently you carry for the same amount 
 to Charleston that you do to Atlanta"? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; with few cents difference. „.,,., . . 
 
 Question. How do you manage where you take your freights at a point 
 where there is no water competition ; say, for instance, from Nashville to 
 Atlanta and from Nashville to Charleston 1 How do you regulate those 
 
 rates ? 
 Answer. Well, sir, we generally get a better figure out of such rates. 
 
784 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Question. Your rate to Charleston is proportionately lower, is it not, 
 taking the distance into consideration ? 
 
 Answer. Yes; sir. 
 
 Question. What ratio would that toe I 
 
 Answer. I could not tell you exactly, without some data or making some 
 calculation. I have never directed my attention specially to that. I 
 have known that it has existed. I have known generally the reason 
 why. Greater difference exists in the Cincinnati and Chicago rates than 
 in the Nashville point, where there is no competition existing. But 
 where the Chesapeake and Ohio line or Baltimore line fixes a rate, we 
 have to work to it, or pass out and relinquish the field to them and do 
 no business. We have been getting a very good west-bound business 
 from Charleston to Savannah, and we do not see proper to cease all ef- 
 forts to do a south-bound business. We work very low to Charleston 
 and Savannah sometimes to get good freights back. 
 
 Question. How do your rates from the sea-board to the interior com- 
 pare with your rates on south-bound freights to the sea-board '? 
 
 Answer. We have no rates to the sea-board from any points, except 
 Green Line points in the West. That is a matter held by the different 
 roads. For instance, the South Carolina and Georgia Road make the 
 rate to Atlanta on all goods from Charleston to Atlanta, and the same 
 to Chattanooga. We do not interfere with that. It is only on the wes- 
 tern-bound shipments to Cincinnati, Louisville, Saint Louis, Chicago, 
 Nashville, and so on. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. How do your west-bound freights to a Green Line point 
 compare with the others? 
 
 Answer. Much lower. We have done that in order to stimulate the 
 business and build it up. We have been willing to carry freights west- 
 bound almost for the mileage, just paying the rental of the cars in order 
 to stimulate. We have been giving these iron-furnaces very low rates. 
 We have been giving lumber and the naval stores, and rice and goods 
 of that character very low rates, in order to stimulate the business 
 and build up a trade between the two sections. 
 
 Question. There are cars, however, are there not, running on all these 
 local roads which do not belong to your line at all ? 
 
 Answer. Certainly ; a great many cars. For instance, the Western 
 and AtlanticBoad, Isuppose, own six or seven hundred cars. They only 
 contribute to the line two hundred and fifty cars. I suppose the Louis- 
 ville and Nashville own over a thousand cars, and they contribute some 
 two hundred. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. If a mercantile house is doing business in Atlanta, and 
 desires to import from Saint Louis 500 barrels of flour, must they resort 
 to your line for transportation ? 
 
 Answer. There is no other line leading from the West to this point 
 without making a long circuit abound by Montgomery, or down the Mis- 
 sissippi river, and thence to Montgomery. There have been a good many 
 shipments made by New Orleans and Atlanta of corn when the river was 
 up and barge-rates were very low ? 
 
 Question. Do I understand that the two cents per car per mile is for 
 the use of the car ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; the rental. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 785 
 
 Question. And the rates you have specified to us are the rates that 
 the importer here pays on his flour 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. What do you class flour at 1 
 
 Answer. We have a special rate on that. We have what is called a 
 barrel-rate. 
 
 Question. What is the barrel-rate from Saint Louis to Atlanta ? 
 
 Answer. One dollar and twenty-seven cents. 
 
 Question. When these railroad companies meet in convention with a 
 view to fix the rate, what is the principle which controls them — possi- 
 ble competition with other routes ? 
 
 Answer. That generally fixes the rate. I suppose the general princi- 
 ple is to get a reasonable paying rate out of the business, if possible. 
 If competition prevents, they work for cost for the time being until they, 
 can improve it. 
 
 Question. For instance, from Saint Louis to Savannah you are com- 
 peted with by the Baltimore and-Ohio Railroad and ocean transportation 
 to Savannah, are you? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; at Charleston, and even up to Augusta now, we 
 have competition by this new Chesapeake and Ohio Line, opened last 
 year. 
 
 Question. Where does it embark its products ; at Norfolk f 
 
 Answer. No, sir; they come across on the Chesapeake and Ohio, 
 through West Virginia. 
 
 Question. They do not use ocean transportation ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. Does the Baltimore and Ohio use ocean transportation ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. By steamship line ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question How much does it cost to bring a barrel of flour by the 
 Baltimore and Ohio and steamship lines, as compared with your lines ? 
 
 Answer. We generally make our rates the same. The figures I can- 
 not give you to-night. 
 
 Question. But ttey are lower in consequence of that competition % 
 
 Answer. Our rates are lower than they would be ; but they are not 
 lower than the Baltimore rate. They are generally the same. They fix 
 a rate, and, in railroad parlance, we work to it. If it is 20 cents a'barrel 
 we work to it, and are obliged to do so or quit the business. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. Does your grain comein bulk or sacks ? 
 
 Answer. Both ways. We bring a great deal in bulk. 
 
 Question. Do you make any difference in the charge"? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; we charge the same rate. It really costs more to 
 transport grain in bulk, because it detains the cars. We have not eleva- 
 tors and chutes for unloading so promptly ; still, we do it for the accom- 
 modation of the public. 
 
 Question. What does it cost at the sea-port to ship grain from the car 
 to the vessel ; say at Savannah or Charleston, 
 
 Answer. I do not know what their wharfage rates are. At Port 
 Royal they have no extra charge now. They load right from the car 
 into the steamer, and from the steamer into the car. The track runs 
 right alongside of the wharf. It is thought that ultimately most of the 
 bulk-grain business will be done over that line. 
 
 Question. I suppose the owner of the line pays for the use of the car. 
 
 50 is 
 
786 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 The owner of the grain has nothing to do with the payment of the 
 car. 
 
 Answer. No, sir. .-,,,. n « 
 
 Question. Do all the companies composing the line get exactly the 
 same rate per mile ? 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir; exactly. 
 
 Question. Does what is known as the Mahone system of roads and 
 the Southern line, the Pennsylvania line, work together in prorating! 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; wherever we reach a line of that kind. There is 
 only one line in our combination that is controlled by the security com- 
 pany, the Atlantic and Richmond. They prorate with us very freely. 
 
 Question. What combination controls the road that you work over 
 principally? 
 
 Answer. They are mostly stock companies. One is a leased road- 
 three are leased roads. 
 
 Question. What is the usual capacity of a car 1 
 
 Answer. The old cars were rated at eight tons. We are now building 
 all of our cars at ten tons. 
 
 Question. Is the gauge the same from the sea-port to Cincinnati or 
 Louisville 1 
 
 Answer. It is to Louisville and Saint Louis, but not to Cincinnati. 
 The gauge breaks at Louisville, over what is known as the short line. 
 
 Question. What is the gauge in the Southern States generally. 
 
 Answer. Five feet. I think North it is four feet nine or four feet eight 
 and a half. It is universally five feet in the South, with the exception 
 of a little road in North Carolina from Greensport. 
 
 By Mr. Conover : , 
 
 Question. When did that Green Line begin f 
 
 Answer. In 1869, I believe. 
 
 Question. Were not the rates of freight higher before that combina- 
 tion or organization than they are now % 
 
 Answer. The rates were much higher than they are now. 
 
 Question. Did not that force competition on the part of the Baltimore 
 and Ohio Railroad — that Green Line ? 
 
 Answer. I do not know. Perhaps it might have stimulated it; 
 
 Question. Do you know how much higher the rates formerly were? 
 
 Ans.wer. I could not say from memory. 
 
 Question. I mean, did not that force the Baltimore and Ohio Road, or 
 the companies which now compete with you, to reduce their rates of 
 freight? Did that combination affect that matter in any way ? 
 
 Answer. I should think it did. 
 
 Question. Have they reduced also their rates since that time f 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir; they cut our rates frequently. 
 
 Question. They have reduced their own since that combination ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. The Chesapeake and Ohio Line has recently cut 
 our rates at Cincinnati. Whenever they cut our rates we have to come 
 to them as a matter of course. 
 
 Question. Did yon say the charge was the same from Cincinnati here 
 and Saint Louis ! 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Is not there some difference in length ? 
 
 Answer: It is five hundred and eighty-one miles from Cincinnati to 
 Atlanta, and from Saint Louis it is six hundred and eighty-live miles. 
 There is one hundred and four miles of difference. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 787 
 
 Examination of E. C. Eobson. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Please state your business. 
 
 Answer. I am general agent of the Green Line. My business, though 
 I am called general agent, is purely with the car service. Mr. Walker has 
 already explained to you, I believe, the character of the line. My busi- 
 ness is to keep an exchange of the mileage made by all the cars in the 
 line. In makiDgup the statement connected with our business, I am 
 informed every month of the amount of revenue which each road derives 
 in the gross from the Green Line business proper. I can only give 
 the committee how much has been earned and how much business has 
 been done in the Green Line proper ; that is, north and south — what 
 comes from the West, all over these eighteen, or twenty, or twenty-one 
 roads that we have, and what goes back to them each month. Think- 
 ing, perhaps, that you might wish to have that information, I have ap- 
 pended a little table, which I will here submit to you : 
 * 
 
 The gross Green Line revenue for twelve months, from November, 1872, io October, 1873. 
 
 Southbound. Northbound. 
 
 Total. 
 
 1872. 
 
 November 
 
 December 
 
 1873. 
 
 January 
 
 February 
 
 March 
 
 April 
 
 May 
 
 June 
 
 July 
 
 August 
 
 September. 
 
 October 
 
 Total 
 
 $186, 784 87 
 169, 817 09 
 
 $26, 655 74 
 18, 970 72 
 
 218, 069 
 188, 472 
 341,281 
 210,741 
 115, 064 
 120, 923 
 138, 635 
 166, 335 
 144, 046 
 122, 270 
 
 757 03 
 564 64 
 216 26 
 927 09 
 225 49 
 735 89 
 689 34 
 960 54 
 963 29 
 310 48 
 
 $213, 440 61 
 188, 767 81 
 
 246, 826 22 
 215,036 76 
 370, 498 14 
 240, 668 76 
 138, 290 39 
 138, 659 25 
 153, 325 0C 
 187, 296 18 
 169,009 92 
 146, 581 17 
 
 2, 122, 443 70 
 
 285, 976 51 
 
 2, 408, 420 21 
 
 That is the business for twelve months. 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. T see you have eighteen lines here? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; there are a few more, which have been recently 
 admitted. Their business is small. 
 
 Question. But the eighteen lines named at the head of this circular 
 have earned these amounts ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; the aggregate is $2,122,443.70. That is south. 
 That is what comes from the West, of Green Line receipts all over the 
 various roads south. The other table is what goes back, or eastern 
 freights, $285,976.51. Now, I keep an estimate of the number of miles 
 made in this service. I have not been very careful, but I had certain 
 results to obtain, and I do not include some things which really are rel- 
 evant to my business ; but I have figured at it constantly for the sake 
 of getting up some information for my own gratification. You will find 
 the gross revenue for twelve months amounts to two million. That 
 averages, then, $200,000 a month— the gross business going south and 
 north. Taking that, I find that, after watching these lines now 
 after the last four or five years, the line really makes but 10£ to 11 
 cents per mile per car. A railroad man, Mr. Finck, one of the 
 ablest in this country, has figured that thing a great deal, and I 
 
788 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 have talked with him about it. He figures that it costs from 7| 
 to 9. He puts it down that it costs 9.75 to carry freight per mile. 
 
 1 notice that our Green-Line revenue does not realize more than 
 about 10£ and 11 cents. 1 have not, as I say, been very careful 
 with these figures, because it was not necessary that I should do so ; and 
 the nature of our exchange has been so that I could not tell you. Some- 
 times we have been compelled to transfer, and did not carry cars really 
 all the way through. My observations have shown me that the revenue 
 derived from this business only amounts to, say, 12 cents, to be safe. 
 That is about 1J cents per ton per mile, and it would really show that, 
 out of $2,000,000, which we have in this line, it has cost the Green Line, 
 if those figures of Mr. Finck are correct, that the Green Line hardly 
 makes a living out of this business. 
 
 Question. Do you know the total amount .of mileage for that year? 
 Answer. Yes, sir; It amounts to about eighteen million miles— be- 
 tween eighteen and twenty millions. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : * 
 
 Question. Do you know what per cent, the use of the car pays to the 
 car owners ? 
 
 ■ Answer. In' the mileage do you mean ? I have worked and figured 
 at it a good deal. We allow each other \\ cents part of the year. 
 From the 1st of April to the 1st of November we allow 1J cents a mile 
 all the way, loaded or empty ; and from November until April we allow 
 
 2 cents ; but we have been charging 1 \ cents a mile, and I used to think 
 it very profitable. When 1 first commenced I 'watched each car. I 
 keep the actual mileage which every car makes in the Green Line. 
 Sometimes a car makes two thousand five hundred miles a month, and 
 sometimes it will not make a thousand. Then the dull season comes 
 on, and we are locked up, and statistics don't avail much, because we 
 never could side-track a sufficient number of cars to make it equalize 
 itself. 
 
 Question. Don't you pay dividends ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; I do not know whether anybody can understand 
 our line. It is a myth. It is not a stock company. It is a big thing, 
 and runs all over creation in this part of the world. But there is no 
 stock, and no dividends are paid to anybody. It is carried on as if we 
 had no Green Line, and it is intended for the exchange of cars instead 
 of transferring freight. 
 
 Question. Who builds your cars and keeps them in order % 
 
 Answer. They are built by the roads themselves. Sometimes they 
 buy from different parties. 
 
 Question. Each road puts in its cars according to the number of miles U 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; that is the theory, and that is the fact. 
 
 Question. Who keeps those cars in order ? 
 
 Answer. They are kept in order by each road, and the necessary and 
 proper expense df wear and tear charged to the owner of the car. 
 
 Question. Whatever railroad repairs a car it charges it up ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; if it breaks one of its own cars up, and it is its 
 own fault, it must rebuild it. The cars are delivered to the line in good 
 condition, and if the Georgia Boad should run a car off the track and 
 break it up by bad or defective track, it pays for it. 
 
 Question. How do you know whether it is the fault of the road or the 
 fault of the car % 
 
 Answer. We have bad more fun about that than you ever saw in 
 your life, and it has nearly driven me distracted. I have exhausted all 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 789 
 
 the rhetoric I am capable of on that subject. But we finally got to- 
 gether, and we all had a love-feast, and declared we would do right 
 about it. But sometimes we have a dishonest man. A master-machinist 
 will want to have his expenses reduced, coming up sometimes with a 
 large bill of expenses for the month. The superintendent will not like 
 that. Well, all he can charge to somebody else is that much deducted. 
 But, then, the superintendent sometimes don't want to do that 
 way. But we have, as I say, all made some very happy and agreeable 
 resolutions about this matter now, and I think we are working it right 
 at present. I think now that I have a set of repairs for the month of 
 November which there will be very little trouble about. 
 Committee here adjourned to meet to-morrow, December 25. 
 
 Examination of Dr. J. J. Harris, mayor of the city of Brunswick, 
 Ga., upon the subject of the unrivaled fitness of Brunswick for the 
 eastern terminus of the Atlantic and Great Western Canal. 
 
 SITUATION OF BRUNSWICK, GA. 
 
 Brunswick is situated on an extensive plateau, having the shape of a 
 peninsula, and covered with, live-oak, cedar, &c, thirteen miles from 
 the outer bar. The ground, for several feet deep, is pure sand, with a 
 sufficient surface deposit of alluvium to fit it admirably for gardening 
 purposes. The city front is mainly upon Little Turtle Biver, which has 
 a bold bluff, giving an excellent view of the river, bay, marshes, and 
 circumjacent islands. 
 
 In an address to the commercial convention, held at Memphis in 1869, 
 Judge Houston, then mayor of Brunswick, uses the following language: 
 
 There is not a more beautiful or healthy location for a large city to be found in this 
 or any other country. The city is situated on a high and dry point of land, covered by 
 a beautiful and magnificent grove of live-oak. The air is most pure and refreshing. The 
 city lies within full view of and is perfectly open to the broad and majestic Atlantic. 
 The sea-breeze, which is regular and constantly wafted in, so tempers the heat during 
 the summer months that it is surprisingly cool and pleasant. Brunswick is blessed in 
 this particular; vessels can visit the port with impunity at all seasons of the year. 
 
 HEALTHFULNESS. 
 
 Ex-Governor Herschel V. Johnson, in a published letter, says : 
 
 In point of healthfulness, it (Brunswick) stands unrivaled by any sea-port in the 
 United States. It is situated on an extensive plateau — a pure sandy beach, covered 
 with live-oak and cedar, with Dot a drop of fresh water in miles of it ; whilst all the 
 depressed localities are swept regularly by the tides, that cleanse them and carry off all 
 decaying matter. While yellow fever hits visited, with fatal ravages, other sea-ports 
 of the South, I believe it is historically true that net a single case has ever originated 
 in Brunswick. 
 
 This latter fact, announced many years ago, still applies, notwith- 
 standing the population has in the meantime increased to about three 
 thousand. On several occasions cases of yellow fever have been brought 
 to Brunswick from a distance, but in no instance has the infection spread. 
 Indeed, it would seem as if the atmosphere of Brunswick is fatal to the 
 specific poison of that fearful scourge. 
 
 On this subject, the Georgia delegation in Congress in 1855, composed 
 of Mr. Stephens, Mr. Toombs, and others, in a memorial addressed to that 
 body touching the establishment of a navy-yard at Brunswick, say : 
 
 In this respect we are satisfied that no harbor on the whole line of sea-board sur- 
 passes, and we think none equals, that of Brunswick. Its mean temperature is 67° 
 Fahrenheit, while the thermometer seldom rises to 90° or falls below 30°. Pure, sweet 
 
790 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 water can easily be obtained by digging down to a stratum of fine sand, which is 
 covered bv a thin one of hard-pan, and underlies the whole section of country. The 
 general salubrity of the climate, added to the great natural beauty of the scenery, em- 
 bracing the ocean, river, the circumjacent islands, the bluff of the city, and the country 
 around^ add greatly to the other advantages of the proposed location for a navy-yard. 
 
 Hon. Albert G. Jewett, formerly United States charge d'affaires at 
 Paris, says: 
 
 I commenced about one year ago to build two river-steamers in Brunswick, and 
 finished them about the 14th August last past. The climate is admirable. I have had 
 some experience of climates in North and South America and m the Old World, and I 
 made up my mind, after seeing the effect of it on my men and experiencing the effect 
 of it on myself, that I have never seen any place where a crew of men— northern or 
 southern, white or black— could do more work the year round than in Brunswick. I 
 think a crew of Maine ship-builders can do more work In Brunswick in a ship-yard in 
 one year than they can do in Maine. I had not a man sick, either winter or summer, 
 on account of climate, nor was there a day's work lost on account of heat during the 
 summer months. 
 
 The bar and harbor of Brunswick combined are unequaled by those 
 of any other port south of the Chesapeake. They have been thoroughly 
 surveyed at different periods by order of the United States Govern- 
 ment. After most careful examinations and comparison with the other 
 harbors, the Government purchased an admirable site in Brunswick 
 Harbor for its naval depot. The last survey was superintended by Prof. 
 A. D. Bache, thehead of the United States Coast Survey. Previous sur- 
 veys had been made, the most thorough of which was by Commodores 
 Woolsey, Claxton, and Shubrick. The report they made was, "that 
 18 feet at low water is the lowest draught of water in the channel- way ; 
 the average rise of tide is 6 feet, which gives at high water on the bar 
 24 feet, sufficient for a frigate;" and in concluding their report they 
 declare, " Having duly weighed the relative pretensions of Charleston, 
 Port Boyal, Savannah, . Brunswick, and Saint Mary's, (Fernandina,) we 
 have no hesitation in preferring Brunswick." On fall-tides, a greater 
 draught than 24 feet can be brought over the bar and up to the railroad 
 wharves. 
 
 The bar and channel are so plain and safe that many vessels of largest 
 size have entered and departed without pilots. Many others take pilots 
 only because it is required by the conditions of their insurance. 
 
 Says Hon. A. G. Jewett, previously quoted from : 
 
 The harbor is of sufficient capacity to contain more shipping, with safe anchorage, 
 than is usually found at one time in the harbor of New York, Liverpool, or London, 
 I presume, and that withoilt adding any expense except that dictated by the interests 
 of share-owners. It is completely land-locked, and consequently a very safe harbor. 
 The wharf-room available at Brunswick is sufficient for the commercial requirements 
 of any city in the Union. The transfer of cargo from car to ship, and from ship to car, 
 is performed at Brunswick with absolute minimum of trouble and expense. The rail- 
 roads extend to the wharves. 
 
 CONNECTION WITH INTERIOR BY RAILROADS. 
 
 The Macon and Brunswick Eailroad connects Brunswick with the 
 system of railroads converging at Macon, Ga., and radiating thence, 
 with their various connections, to every point of the compass. Forty 
 miles from Brunswick this road crosses the Atlantic and Gulf Road, 
 uniting Brunswick with Savannah on the one hand, and with South- 
 western Georgia and Florida on the other. Eunning almost due west 
 from Brunswick, and very nearly on the line of the thirty-second par- 
 allel of latitude, is the Brunswick and Albany Eailroad, now finished to 
 within two miles of Albany, and graded almost the entire distance to 
 Eufaula, Ala. This road contemplates a westward extension, which 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 791 
 
 will ultimately connect it with the Southern Pacific Bailroad, whose 
 eastern terminus must be Brunswick. Both these roads pass through a 
 country of illimitable yellow-pine forests, that offers rare inducements 
 to immigrants, both on account of the mildness and salubrity of its 
 climate and the adaptation of its soil to the culture of cotton, the cereals, 
 esculents, the vine, and to sheep-raising. 
 
 RELATION TO ATLANTIC AND GREAT WESTERN CANAL. 
 
 Brunswick is, on an air-line, about thirteen miles, at the most avail- 
 able point, from the Altamaha Eiver. Some years ago about $600,000 
 were expended in the construction of a canal from Brunswick to the 
 Altamaha. The scheme fell through because of a general financial con- 
 vulsion. The labor of a few weeks and the expenditure of a small sum 
 of money would perfect that work. 
 
 The Altamaha, as is known, is the product of the Oconee and Oc- 
 mulgee Bivers, the latter being the last stream which the proposed line 
 of the great canal touches. Darien, situated at the mouth of the Alta- 
 maha, for lack of water on its* bar, insufficiency of anchorage, and the 
 insalubrity of its climate, can never be made a city, and, therefore, is 
 unsuited for the terminus of the Atlantic and Great Western Canal ; 
 while Brunswick, for the very opposite reasons, and many others that 
 might be mentioned, should be the terminus. 
 
 December 25, 1873. 
 
 Thomas E. Walker recalled. 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. According to the statement which Mr. Eobson submitted 
 to us last night, we find that the inward freights of the Green Line are 
 two millions and upward per annum? 
 
 Answer. I think that is the total south-bound and west-bound. 
 
 Question. No. The south-bound is $2,122,000, and the north-bound 
 is $285,000. When you say north-bound, do you mean everything which 
 goes west and north ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; over our line. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Question. You mean your cars ? 
 . Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. How does the cotton product find its way from this part ? 
 
 Answer. Most of it goes by the sea-board route. 
 
 Question. From here to Charleston 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; and to Savannah ; some of it by the air-line from 
 here to Dalton, and thence to Lynchburgh ; some over the Atlanta and 
 Bichmond Air-line — a new line opened for business this season. 
 
 Question. Does this $285,000 worth of north-bound freight include 
 your cotton ? , 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; it includes everything over our line, north-bound 
 or west-bound, as we call it. 
 
 Question. If cotton goes.from here to Savannah 
 
 Answer- We have nothing to do with that. It includes only such 
 
792 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 freight as goes by the Green Liiie. It has nothing to do with the other 
 sea-board lines. 
 
 Question. Have not you a Green Line from here to Savannah? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; we have the Green Line from what we call initial 
 western points. There is no Green Line from Atlanta proper to Savan- 
 nah. That is regarded as local, and under the control altogether of the 
 Central Eoad. 
 
 Question. In other words, this north-bound freight, amounting to 
 $285,000 per annum, does not represent the total charge on the export 
 of cotton from Atlanta 1 
 
 Answer. Not at all. A very small proportion. I do not suppose the 
 Green Line shipped over four or five thousand bags, if that much, last 
 season. We get a very small proportion. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. You mean bales, I suppose ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. The only cotton they get, I think, is small ship 
 ments to manufacturers direct in the interior towns, perhaps, of Massa, 
 chusetts and Rhode Island — a few manufacturers who go South and buy 
 their own stock ; who do not go to New York or Boston, but buy direct 
 here. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. Have you any knowledge of the amount of cotton that is 
 marketed here per annum and exported from Atlanta 1 
 
 Answer. No, sir. I am not thoroughly posted in reference to that 
 matter. I think there was some 30,000 bales received here last year. 1 
 think, perhaps, there has been nearly 40,000 received up to this time. 
 The estimate is that it will reach as high 60,000. 
 
 A Bystander : The total receipts at Atlanta to this time have been 
 40,807 bales since the season opened, on the 1st of September. Out of 
 that there were 36 bales included that passed here in transitu. There 
 have been shipped from Atlanta up to this 39,374 bales, leaving on hand 
 1,433. Those are the receipts by wagon. The figures of last year will 
 not exceed over 30,000 bales. 
 
 By Mr. West, (to the witness :) 
 
 Question. The total crop marketed here was 30,000 bales last year? 
 Answer. Yes, sir, . 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Is there but oue railroad from Atlanta to Savannah ! 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. There is a diverging line by Macon, known as the 
 Macon and Brunswick Hue. But the Georgia Central controls it from 
 here to Savannah. 
 
 Question. Have you a statement of the aggregate receipts of the freight 
 of the Georgia Central ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; I have not. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Question. In whose control is the Georgia Central 1 
 Answer. It is a stock company. Mr. 'William Wadleigh represents it 
 as president. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Question. Have you a chamber of commerce here 1 
 Answer. Yes, sir. There is another line to Savannah bv way of 
 Augusta. J J 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 793 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. What constitutes the freights north by the Green Line? 
 
 Answer. They are mostly heavy articles. We ship a good deal of 
 lumber, naval stores, turpentine, rice, and iron ore. They are nearly 
 all heavy articles, upon which exceedingly low rates are given, in order 
 to stimulate the business. It has been the purpose of the line to do 
 that, and thus cause it to increase. 
 
 Question. The $285,000, and over, in that table, is made up of freights 
 upon such articles as you have just mentioned ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. I suppose the majority of that revenue is derived 
 from iron ore. 
 
 Question. That represents a tonnage much larger in proportion to 
 the south-bound tonnage than the receipts are in proportion ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. The rates are so much less. On fourth and fifth 
 class from Louisville to Charleston and Savannah the charge is G5 cents 
 per hundred on each. The rates are the same on fourth and fifth class. 
 From Cincinnati the charge is 70 cents per hundred ; that is, on each 
 class. From Chicago the charge is 75 cents. 
 
 Examination of Governor Joseph E. Brown. 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. How are the railroads of Georgia organized; is it by joint- 
 stock company, private corporations? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. Indeed, all the railroads, I believe, of Georgia, 
 which are in operation, were organized as joint-stock companies, except 
 the Western Atlantic, which was built by the State out of the State 
 treasury. It is now, however, in the hands of a corporation known as 
 the Western Atlantic Eailroad Company, and was leased by the State 
 to the present proprietors. 
 
 Question. That runs from Atlanta to Dalton ? 
 
 Answer. From Atlanta to Chattanooga. 
 
 Question. Is there combination- between those railroads in any way ; 
 any organized combination or arrangement between them ? 
 
 Answer. In reference to what matter 1 
 
 Question. In reference to freights. 
 
 Answer. We have no combination except with what is called the 
 Green Line, a fast through-freight organization that I expect you have 
 had explained to you. 
 
 Question. Are there any other lines of the same character ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; the Green Line is an organization of the different 
 roads from Saint Louis and Louisville, extending to the Southern cities 
 generally. For instance, coming through, Nashville is a Green-Line 
 terminal point ; Chattanooga is ; also, Atlanta. And then from here, 
 diverging and extending to Macon, Savannah, Augusta, Charleston, 
 Columbia, S. C, and out, the Atlanta and Richmond Air-line as far as 
 Charlotte, N. C. it is a combination of this character : All the different 
 roads connect with the line for the purpose of expediting the transporta- 
 tion of freight — formed an organization known as the Green Line. They 
 at first painted their cars green or with a green stripe upon them, in 
 order to indicate that the cars belonged to the Green Line, and each road 
 put in its prorate of cars. The cars of the Western Atlantic Eailroad, 
 for instance, which is the road over which I preside, from here to 
 Chattanooga, are put into the Green Line at its prorate, which might be 
 four hundred and fifty cars, although we have not that number in, not 
 owning the cars. Perhaps no two of the roads have in the full prorate ; 
 
794 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 but we have altogether some twenty-odd hundred cars in the Greeu 
 Line, aud those cars are confined to this through business. They are 
 not local on the roads at all, but confined to the transportation of freight 
 from the west to the eastern terminal points. A Western Atlantic Kail- 
 road car is sent to Saint Louis ; it is loaded there with bacon for Charles- 
 ton, S. 0. It is sealed there, and it is brought to the terminal 
 point of tlie Saint Louis and Iron-Mountain Eailroad. It is there deliv- 
 ered to the Nashville, Chattanooga, and Saint Louis Eoad at Columbus, 
 Ky., and is transferred from there to Chattanooga, over that line, it all 
 being under one management. There it is delivered to the Western 
 Atlantic. Our engine takes it and brings it to Atlanta. We deliver it 
 to the Georgia road, and the engine of the Georgia road carries it to 
 Augusta. There it is delivered to the South Carolina road, and the engine 
 of the South Carolina road carries it to Charleston, and there it is opened 
 and the freight is delivered, if it is through freight from. Saint Louis to 
 Charleston. If it is intended for Atlanta it stops here, and is unloaded. 
 If it is intended for Savannah, it goes to Savannah and is unloaded. The 
 whole object of the line is to put these through freights over as rapidly 
 as possible, which we are driven to do to meet competition from several 
 other lines, or lose a good portion of the business, and to prevent the 
 transshipment at the terminal points of each road. Under the old sys- 
 tem the same freight which I have traced from Saint Louis to Charleston 
 would have come to the end of the Saint Louis and Iron-Mountain Eoad ; 
 would have been transshipped from the cars of that road to the next; 
 it would have come to Nashville ; there it would have been taken out 
 of the cars of the road over which it had just passed, and been trans- 
 ferred to the Nashville and Chattanooga road ; at Chattanooga it would 
 have been transferred, and also at Atlanta and Augusta, and then it 
 would have gone on to Charleston, taking a very considerable length of 
 time to put it through under the present organization. 
 
 Question. Did that involve a transfer from one car to the other"? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. The State owning the line at that time, kept hep 
 own cars mainly upon her own road ; all her cars, we may say, except 
 occasionally there was some interchange between lines in a press. But, 
 as a general rule, they were kept on our own lines, and the freights 
 landed at Chattanooga had to be transferred. That occasioned a very 
 considerable delay to western freight. At Atlanta we had it all to 
 transfer again to the different roads here, to which it was to be distrib- 
 uted, and there were very great delays about it. For the purpose of 
 expediting the freights, this organization, called the Green Line, was 
 formed, by which each road put into the line, as I have stated, its pro- 
 rate of cars, and those cars are given up to the line. We have no local 
 control over them. For instance, the cars of the Western Atlantic be- 
 longing to the Green Line I have no right to control for local business. 
 It is true that sometimes, in a press, some one of the roads may pick up 
 a few cars and use them for a day or two. But there is always com- 
 plaint made by the others at once, because it is a violation of the con- 
 tract between the roads. 
 
 Question. The line is similar to lines of the same character in North- 
 ern States 1 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir. Where there is an arrangement to expedite freight 
 by sending it over different lines without transferring it at the terminal 
 points of the different companies' roads. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. How do you regulate the rates ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 795 
 
 Answer. We have what is called the Committee of the Green Line, a 
 committee composed of some five or six gentlemen connected with the 
 line, as it is not convenient for the presidents and superintendents of 
 all the lines to be at every meeting. That committee regulates the 
 affairs of the line. For instance, if there is a claim where it is doubtful 
 which should pay the damages, that matter is regulated by that com- 
 mittee, and we abide their decision. Any matter in regard to regula- 
 tion of freights, for instance, increasing or diminishing the price, is gen- 
 erally referred back to what is called a Green-Line meeting ; that is, 
 they get as many of the presidents or superintendents together as they 
 can. We have to change rates very frequently ; because competing lines 
 drive us to do it, as you have learned they do in every other section of 
 the country. As an illustration, freights come around from Cincinnati 
 by the Chesapeake and Ohio road; down through Virginia and around 
 and up through Augusta and Atlanta. Freights have been shipped into 
 Atlanta, (last winter, probably ;) for instance, a hundred car-loads at one 
 time came around that route. We cannot afford that here. And al- 
 though we may not be getting a rate that we can pay a dividend upon, 
 we are obliged, whenever that state of things comes along, to lower our 
 freights, or give it up and let it go that route. Another route that has 
 greatly diminished our income has been the completion of the line from 
 Louisville down to Montgomery, Ala. There is a competing line now 
 with ours that is some thirty or forty odd miles shorter to Columbus, 
 Ga., than our line is. Consequently we gave that up entirely to the 
 other line, and do not pretend to solicit freights for there at all. 
 They come down Mr. Finck's lines by Montgomery. Then Mr. Finck 
 again is troubled with competition on the other side of the Mississippi 
 River, coming down to Vicksburgh and across down to New Orleans by 
 rail ; up by way of Mobile into Montgomery. Very lately he has been 
 driven to reduce his rates by reason of that strong river competition. 
 Another reason probably why our freights may be a little higher than 
 the northern freights is this : Take the Pennsylvania Central and a num- 
 ber of the leading roads, and you have a return-freight generally in 
 your cars. In the main you run loaded both ways. But it is not so 
 with us here. The first year that I took charge as president of the 
 Western and Atlantic Eailroad, under the lease, the tonnage-account 
 showed that out of all the cars that were loaded from the West to the 
 East, one out of twelve and a fraction, or thirteen and a fraction, re- 
 turned loaded. I think it was from one to thirteen and a fraction. 
 Last year we had improved a little on that. About one in'every eleven, 
 if I recollect correctly, came back loaded. Consequently we ran the 
 round trips, in ten out of eleven, to get a through route on it one way. 
 If we had a return freight to the West— if you would buy as much 
 from us as we have to from you— we could put freights a great deal 
 lower. But we cannot run the round trip from here to Saint Louis or 
 Louisville, and carry up the unloaded car and bring it down loaded as 
 low as we could carry if it was loaded each way. Consequently our back 
 rates from the West are generally lower than the eastern-bound rates, 
 for the reason that it is better to carry them very low than it is to go 
 back empty. 
 Question. How do the rates on the through lines compare with the 
 
 Answer. The local rates are always higher than the through-line 
 
 rates. 
 Question. What is the proportion per ton per mile % 
 Answer. I could not be accurate about that without the statistics 
 
 before me. I have sent for Mr. Anderson, who will bring the local 
 
790 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 tariffs of our road ; and you already bave from Mr. Walker the Green- 
 Line rate But, of course, the local rates are much higher, and tor this 
 reason • When a railroad is built here it depends always, in a great 
 decree, for its success upon the business along its line. A party of 
 gentlemen being incorporated to build a railroad generally look to the 
 country and what the probable freights will be, and make up their cal- 
 culations whether they can make it pay to invest their capital, looking 
 to the probable prospects of the business. So, all along our line here, 
 the roads have been built mainly with a view to these local rates. But 
 if we can extend farther— for instance, if we can bring freights from 
 Chicago or Saint Louis, going to Charleston, and can make even but 
 very little on them, it is better than to be idle. And we can afford to 
 carry them much lower than local rates ; for if we put everything as low 
 as those rates we could not pay expenses and live ; but we may, having 
 the rolling-stock, bring those through freights at a much lower rate 
 than we can afford to bring the local, and make something; and what- 
 ever we do make is that much taken off the local ; for if we lived at all, 
 we should have to charge it to the local if -we did not get it on the 
 through. 
 
 Question. Do you ever charge higher rates on shorter distances on 
 your own line than on longer distances f 
 
 Answer. I believe that is almost the universal rule. 
 
 Question. On your own line ? 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir. 
 
 Question. Perhaps you do not understand me. Say the freight from 
 Atlanta to Chattanooga is 50 cents a hundred. Would you charge 
 to any intermediate point at a higher rate than 50 cents a hundred? 
 
 Answer. Uo, sir; not by our road. I thought you meant did we 
 charge a higher rate from here to Marietta, in proportion, than to Chatta- 
 nooga. I did not understand your question. 
 
 Question. You do not make any charges of that kind ? 
 
 Answer. If we are making any of that kind.I am not aware of it. It is 
 not my intention to make such charges. 
 
 Question. I have seen the statement that the rates from Saint Louis 
 to Savannah are less than the rates from Saint Louis to Atlanta. 
 
 Answer. That may be so. I am referring to my own road, and not to 
 the Green Line. That is done very frequently, and for this reason : The 
 Atlanta business is legitimately ours. It is very hard for any coinpet : 
 ing line to take that from us. It is true since Mr. Finck's line is com- 
 pleted by the way of Montgomery, it will be easier to do it than for- 
 merly. But it is considered as freight belonging to us. The Charleston 
 freight, from Chicago or Cincinnati, is not legitimately ours. We have 
 to come into strong competition for it. We have no more claim to it 
 than any other line has. The Baltimore and Ohio will take that and carry 
 it by rail to Baltimore, a shorter distance. We make on those through 
 rates from Chicago to Charleston, for instance, scarcely anything. But 
 it is an outpost. We must maintain that or h ave our territory further in- 
 vaded. Hence, we must meet them at the water, or they will drive us 
 back, step by step, and we will lose almost our whole field, and the more of 
 the through business we lose the higher we must make local rates, if we 
 pay expenses and meet our obligations. And as one reason why rail- 
 roads are not probably overcharging a great deal, considering the situ- 
 ation of the country, there are very few of them now who are able to 
 pay dividends, manage as well as they can ; and some roads, heretofore 
 paying heavy dividends, owing to the active competition, now are not 
 able to do so. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 797 
 
 Question. Take your own road as one of the leading railroads, what 
 dividends do you pay ? 
 
 Answer. We lease the road from Georgia, and pay thein $300,000 a 
 year rental, or $25,000 a month. 
 
 Question. How much is that rental interest on the whole investment 
 of the State ? 
 
 Answer. 1 am not able to tell you. I do not know that any one can 
 tell what the whole investment was. It was done under political ad- 
 ministrations, and was a little more extravagantly done, no doubt, than 
 it would have been by a prudent company. But I suppose that, taking 
 the actual investment, it is probably from 5 to 6 per cent, upon what 
 the State gave for the road. But that is rather a guess, for I do not 
 know what the actual expenditure was, although I had control of it for 
 eight years nearly, under a political administration. I never was able 
 to look through and determine what my predecessors had spent upon 
 it exactly. 
 
 Question. The company now running the road is associated merely 
 for the purpose of running it. Does your company own the equipment I 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir. We leased from the State of Georgia the road 
 with all its equipments and the exclusive use of it for twenty years, 
 paying them $300,000 per annum as a rental. 
 
 Question. Do you supply the additional equipment as it is needed? 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir ; we have to supply everything. We have given a 
 bond in $8,000,000 to return the road and its equipment in as good con- 
 dition as we received it from the State, and pay $25,000 per annum 
 rental. We have now had the road under that lease three years day 
 after to-morrow ; and we have not divided a dollar of dividends among 
 the lessees. We found it in bad condition, and we have not been able 
 from what we have made over the rental yet to put the road in as good 
 condition as it ought to be. 
 
 Question. Tou are adding to the equipment, I suppose, and putting 
 your profits into that ? 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir. This year we have lost money pretty heavily, since 
 April, on account of the panic. 
 
 Question. Tou stated awhile ago that cotton was local freight ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; I have made no statement about cotton. 
 
 Question. Please state how cotton is. transported from Atlanta, and 
 where the market is. 
 
 Answer. The markets of the world are open to Atlanta ; but most of 
 the cotton goes from here by way of the coast. For instance, it goes on 
 the Central Eoad from here to Savannah, audit goes on the Georgia 
 Eoad from here to Augusta, and thence to Charleston. Some of it goes 
 the coast line from there; from here by way of Atlanta and Eichmond 
 Air-Line Eoad, lately opened, and a small portion of it goes West from 
 here over our line. The most that we get comes by way of Dalton, 
 and thence through East Tennessee. A small portion of it goes by way 
 of Chattanooga and Nashville, going to the interior towns, as I heard 
 Mr. Walker state, of New England. But that is a very small trade. 
 That does not belong to the Green Line. This is only a local station of 
 the Green Line, so to speak. I saw some very extravagant statements 
 this morning in the paper attributed to Colonel Frobel, which doubtless 
 do him injustice, in relation to our local freight, and I desire that our 
 agent bring them in in order that they may be corrected. I could not 
 correct them from memory. 
 
 The local tariff of the Western and Atlantic Eailroad Company, to 
 take effect November 16, 1873, was here put in evidence by Governor 
 Brown, and reads as follows : 
 
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TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
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gOO TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Are you able now, from your experience of three years, to 
 sive us the possibilities of carrying freight on the Chattanooga and 
 Atlanta Road per ton per mile— I mean the net cost of carrying the 
 freight per ton per mile exclusive of interest, including, however, the 
 rental you pay. . 
 
 Answer. Do you mean the rate per ton that we can simply carry with- 
 out making any profit— the actual cost of carrying 1 
 
 Question. Tes, sir ; including the actual rental that you pay. Take 
 into consideration the cost of fuel, labor, &c, at what rate per ton per 
 mile, taking the through and local freight, and altogether can you carry 
 from Atlanta to Chattanooga northward and southward freight ? 
 
 Answer. I could not tell you that without taking considerable time 
 to make a calculation. We have no statistical table that shows it, and 
 when you embrace all our through and all our local rates and put them 
 together, to say what the whole of it can be carried at, and simply pay 
 expenses and rental, I would not be able to do it. I can mention some 
 articles, however. For instance, in the transportation of coal during 
 the last summer, we carried it at a cent and a quarter per ton per mile. 
 We are now carrying coal over the road for Port Eoyal, with a view to 
 opening a coaling station there, at a cent per ton per mile ; but I doubt 
 whether it pays expenses. In fact, I do not think it does. 
 
 Question. Where do you get the coal on your line of road ? 
 
 Answer. It is obtained at different points. There has been a great 
 deal shipped into Georgia from East Tennessee from a place called Coal 
 Creek and the mines about it. It is thirty miles from Knoxville, and 
 toward the Cumberland Mountain. It is brought down the East Ten- 
 nessee road to Dalton, and goes from there into Atlanta and is dis- 
 tributed in Georgia. Then the largest coal interest which has been 
 operated is the Suwanee mines, on the Cumberland Mountains, on the 
 Nashville and Chattanooga Eoad. The station is Cowan's station, beyond 
 the Cumberland Mountain. There is a mine in the corner of this State 
 which I am interested in. We ship down to the Nashville and Chatta- 
 nooga Eoad twenty miles beyond Chattanooga. Then there are two 
 smaller mines being worked. These are the points from which the coal 
 is mainly brought into Georgia. There is a little anthracite brought 
 from Pennsylvania, I believe. But that is very limited. 
 
 It might be proper that I should state in reference to coal, when I 
 said that we were transporting at a cent a ton a mile across to the coast, 
 that that is a through rate. Our local winter rates are higher than either 
 I have mentioned, for the reason that we are very much crowded in 
 winter when there is anything of a business doing, for our freights are 
 compressed in the main into four or five months ; and the balance is a 
 very dull time. During that period the coal is burdensome to us, and 
 if shippers require it brought during that time we charge a higher rate 
 than in the summer. 
 
 Question. How does the pay of your employe's compare with the pay 
 of employes on northern roads 1 
 
 Answer. I do not know that I can give you the comparison. I do not 
 know what they charge there. We pay our best engineers $4 a day ; 
 we pay our machinists, who are good ones, about $3.50 a day now in the 
 shop. Our mechanics get a little less than that. However, at this 
 time, on account of our low freight, we have not been working on full 
 time. We pay a freight-conductor, say, $80 a month, and a passenger- 
 conductor from $85 to $100. Night-conductors receive $100 a month. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 801 
 
 Question. What do you pay for common labor ? 
 
 Answer. During the summer season we have paid for track-hands, in 
 keeping up the repairs of the track, $1.25 per day ; and we are now, in 
 the winter, only paying $1 a day. The days are short, and they cannot 
 he of very much service. We pay $1.25 for what is called train-hands 
 or brakesmen. 
 
 By Mr. Norwood : 
 
 Question. Do these laborers find themselves ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. . We had a system of meal-tickets which we found 
 them in till lately, but have been obliged to cut them off and raise 
 their wages a little without meal-tickets. The statement I have just 
 made is upon the present basis, without meals. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. What did you pay them when you gave them meal tickets ? 
 
 Answer. We have never given meal-tickets to the track-hands. They 
 always find themselves. Those connected with the running of the 
 trains receive a little less than they do now. For instance, a freight- 
 conductor received $75 a month then, with meals, and he now receives 
 $80 without meals. 
 
 Question, How about the train-hand, who gets now $1.25 a day? 
 
 Answer. He received a dollar a day with his meals. We have only 
 made that change within about a month past, and that under a 
 financial pressure which compelled us to reduce expenses to enable us 
 to pay the rental. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Question. What are your working expenses ; the percentage 1 
 Answer. I cannot tell that exactly at this moment, without having 
 the report with me. It is some 68 or 69 per cent., I think. I will say 
 68 to 70 per cent. I cannot be accurate to a fraction, speaking from 
 recollection. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. That does not include the rental ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; that is actual working expense. In that of course 
 I include all expenses. Many of the railroad reports are made up of or- 
 dinary and extraordinary expenses ; and there is a good deal of humbug 
 about it, as you are aware. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. In settling for use of the cars, I understood Mr. Walker to 
 say that your former car-mileage allowed had been 1£ cents per mile, and 
 that it is now 2 cents. Suppose your road, which is one hundred and 
 thirty-eight miles long, sends a car throughout the entire length of the 
 Green Line, from Saint Louis to Savannah, you are allowed now 2 cents 
 a mile for the use of that car over all the balance of the roads, except your 
 own? 
 
 Answer. That car gets mileage everywhere she runs, and so do all the 
 cars over our own road, as well as over any others, for the reason that 
 she does not belong to our road exclusively. She draws her mileage. 
 So does the Iron Mountain Boad car, and every other. 
 
 Question. Do you not regard that as more profitable than the busi- 
 ness done on your own road ? 
 
 Answer. Much more profitable. If we could put in our cars and run 
 them all the time we would like it, and make more profit; but one 
 51 T s 
 
802 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 drawback on that, I will state, is this : There are six months of the 
 year probably, when a large proportion of these cars are idle and draw- 
 ing lis no mileage. The business in the summer is very light, and does 
 not require more than about half the number of cars we have to have in 
 winter, and yet we must invest enough in the cars to furnish a supply 
 to do the business in the winter. As soon as the winter press is over 
 our cars are run on the sidings, and lie there till business revives, 
 and, consequently, we lose a great deal in the investment of capital in 
 that way, which is more than half its time, probably, lying idle. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. What is your local rate to-day between Chattanooga and 
 Atlanta, on fifth-class freight ? 
 
 Mr. Anderson. Fifth-class is 22 cents a hundred. That includes 
 grain, hay, &c. 
 
 Question. Between Atlanta and Chattanooga ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. On the same class of freight fifty miles out on your road 
 into Atlanta, what would it be ? 
 
 Answer. Thirteen cents. 
 
 Question. Twenty-two cents for one hundred and thirty-eight miles 
 and 13 cents for fifty miles "? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Suppose you come a little nearer this way, say twenty -five 
 miles out on your road. 
 
 Answer. Twenty-five miles would be 11 cents. 
 
 Question. Suppose fifty miles between any two points on your road 
 between each other, what would be your rates on the same class of 
 freight ? 
 
 Answer. Thirteen cents fifty miles either way ; either from one sta- 
 tion to another, or one station fifty miles from Atlanta to Atlanta. 
 
 Question. Then you are not governed by your tariff? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; fifth class is not on this tariff. We have a special 
 tariff from Chattanooga, with five classes. These we use for lqcal. 
 Fifth class is grain. Meal stuffs, bran, and such as that is put down un- 
 der the head of " special." 
 
 Question. Fourth-class rate is on your tariff. What is the rate from 
 Chattanooga here to-day on fourth class? 
 
 Answer. Forty-five cents. 
 
 Question. What is it fifty miles out on your road? 
 
 Answer. Twenty-seven cents. 
 
 Question. Are you governed in all cases between Chattanooga and 
 here by the tariff which you hold in your hand ? 
 
 Answer. No. As I said before, we have a special tariff from Chatta- 
 nooga and a different classification. This is from all stations this side 
 of Chattanooga. > 
 
 Question. Then you have a different tariff from that for through 
 freight? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. What is the transportation on cotton to-day from Chatta- 
 nooga here per hundred I 
 
 Answer. By the bale it is $2 a bale, or about 40 cents a hundred. 
 
 Question. Fifty miles out on your road how much would it be V 
 
 Answer. One dollar and twenty-five cents a bale. 
 
 Question. What is your local passenger tariff? 
 
 Answer. Five cents a mile. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 803 
 
 Question. Is that kept up through to Chattanooga 1 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman (to Governor Brown :) 
 
 Question. State whether the rate you charge in the winter on coal is 
 the minimum rate at which you could carry it from Chattanooga to At- 
 lanta. 
 
 Answer. I have already stated to you that we are carrying now the 
 through rate for the purpose of building up the trade on the coast at a 
 cent per ton per mile. Some of our railroad-men think we are not cov- 
 ering cost. That is Mr. Wadley's opinion. I asked him to allow the 
 same rates to Savannah, and he thought he could not do it and pay ex- 
 penses. We carried at a cent and a quarter per ton per mile in the 
 summer. Our idea was that we made no money on it, but would rather 
 carry it for nothing in the summer than to have it crowd us in the 
 winter. We could not probably carry it cheaper in the winter, taking 
 the interruptions and the press on us, than the present rate and justify 
 ourselves in doing so. We try to induce them to ship their coal in the 
 summer, when the rolling-stock is idle, and give them lower rates on . 
 that account. 
 
 Question. Suppose that the Tennessee Eiver was made navigable in 
 ordinary stages of water from Saint Louis to Chattanooga, and that 
 freight from Saint Louis to Chattanooga could be reduced to $3 a ton, 
 for what could you transport from Chattanooga to Atlanta, say provis- 
 ions and supplies, the distance being one hundred and thirty-eight 
 miles, and you receiving a fair, legitimate profit ? 
 
 Answer. Per ton per mile, do you mean ? 
 
 Question. You had better take the distance. 
 
 Answer. That would depend entirely on how much freight we got, 
 and whether we had a return freight. 
 
 Question. You know the demands of your market. Suppose that 
 the supply of provisions for Atlanta was concentrated at Chattanooga 
 and you had the business of the country, at what rate could you trans- 
 port that business to Atlanta ? 
 
 Answer. I could not give you an accurate rate there because that 
 abolishes the Green Line and puts it all at one rate from there down 
 under your supposition. It is all delivered there at a certain amount 
 per mile and then we are to bring it all. As it is now, we are bringing 
 part at a local rate and part at a through rate, at almost nothing; and 
 I could not give you the average. 
 
 Question. But it would be a dollar and a half or two dollars a ton, I 
 suppose ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; I should think it would. 
 
 The committee here adjourned. 
 
 Mobile, Ala., December 26, 1873. 
 The committee met pursuant to adjournment. 
 
 Examination of Col. Caleb W. Butt. 
 
 Mr* Butt. Mr. Chairman, the project of opening a ship-canal across 
 the peninsula of Florida has attracted some attention in our board of 
 trade for some time past, and has been referred to me as one perhaps 
 in which we were probably more vitally interested than any other. We 
 
804 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 have thought it worthy to be presented to you on the score that it in- 
 volved the interests of a larger scope of the common country than al- 
 most any other scheme of water-transportation which can probably be 
 suggested to you during your journey. It involves the interests of the 
 whole Gulf coast from Apalachicola as far around as the mouth of the 
 Eio Grande, as it will avoid the dangerous and expensive navigation 
 around the Florida capes. It has been estimated that a vessel from here 
 to the North, or to Europe, would have to go perhaps eleven hundred 
 miles farther 'around that peninsula than she would have to go with 
 this canal open. It would bring us within a distance of not more than 
 three hundred miles farther from Liverpool than Savannah if vessels 
 could go through such a canal from Mobile and New Orleans. Besides 
 all the advantages affecting immediately the Gulf ports, we would ar- 
 ray in our behalf the whole interest of the western country, and its 
 grain-transportation, and all the importations which come to these 
 southern ports. Incidentally, it may not be amiss to mention the Gov- 
 ernment establishment at Pensacola — I mean its navy-yard. I have 
 heard it suggested that it would be desirable to have some inlet, prob- 
 ably from there to the navy-yard, on Government account. While the 
 project, we think, is a feasible one, it can only be demonstrated by an 
 actual survey and estimate. Our ideas on that subject are, in the ab- 
 sence of a survey, necessarily crude. The produce tributary to this 
 country is largely diverted now by railroad connections eastward ; much 
 of the cotton formerly and naturally coming here goes by rail from - 
 Montgomery and Selma to Savannah, because they avoid this expensive 
 navigation around Florida. It interests also the eastern ship-owners 
 and manufacturers, who have goods to sell in this country, who have 
 commercial interest with the southern ports, because, in proportion as 
 you reduce the expense of the trip, of course the freights are cheaper. 
 The time consumed, interest. on the investment, both in ships and car- 
 goes, and expense of additional insurance, are all very heavily against 
 us. The exportation of cotton from the several Gulf ports would prob- 
 ably aggregate two millions of bales of cotton a year, representing, pos- 
 sibly, several hundred thousand tonnage of shipping to carry it away. 
 We have had the benefit of the appropriations made by the Govern- 
 ment, beside our own contributions toward deepening our own harbor. 
 It is a safe bay and land-locked, admitting vessels of heavy draught, of 
 twenty-two or twenty-three feet, over the outer bar. By a system of 
 canals — one already has been constructed at English Bend, from New 
 Orleans to the Mississippi River, a little below the city, into Lake Pont- 
 chartrain — it would be perfectly practicable for barges to come down the 
 Mississippi through our lakes and into our bay, and go direct to foreign 
 ports. The small steamboats can go with ease through this inland nav- 
 igation. 
 
 I have the honor to submit to you the following'communication to the 
 Mobile Board of Trade : 
 
 To the President and Board of Control Mobile Board of Trade : 
 
 Gentlemen : The committee on commerce, to -whom you have referred the question 
 of a ship-canal across the peninsula of Florida, beg to report that they can only briefly 
 recapitulate some of the arguments previously adduced in its favor. In the first place, 
 the enterprise, in view of its magnitude, assumes a national importance, more especi- 
 ally when the varied interests of the whole country in it are considered, viz, the en- 
 tire country drained by the Mississippi River and its tributaries, all those portions of 
 Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida that find an exit for their productions through the 
 Gulf of Mexico, besides Louisiana and Texas, as well as the Middle and Eastern States 
 which have commercial interests with the South, whether manufacturers or ship-owners 
 or engaged in any way in traffic in southern productions. Its material advantages are 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 805 
 
 the shortening the route for intercommupication between the different and widely seD- 
 arated portions of our own country and the countries beyond the sea, thus greatly re- 
 ducing the cost of freights and insurance. We have not the exact data to consult 
 but hazard not much in asserting that vessels leaving the Gulf coast for our North At- 
 lantic coast or Europe, would save in distance by means of such a canal not less than 
 one thousand miles, going and returning, besides avoiding the great hazard encoun- 
 tered in the dangerous navigation around the capes of Florida— an item of vast im- 
 portance—without taking into the account the vast saving in time, and the consequent 
 saving in interest on his imports and exports to the merchant, and in the difference be- 
 tween the expenses of a long and a short voyage, and largely in the item of insurance 
 on his vessels to the ship-owner. With such an outlet to the Atlantic Ocean the west- 
 ern tarmer, the producers of corn, wheat, flour, meat, &c, would escape the long 
 and expensive transportation by rail to the Atlantic ports. By the aid of a few short 
 canals around the Gulf coast at the few points that are exposed directly to the sea 
 and the long line of bays and sounds that are protected by the sand islands, extend- 
 ing almost continuously from within a short distance of New Orleans to Saint Mark's 
 Bay, in Florida. Barges laden with produce from Saint Louis, or beyond, could be 
 safely towed into and through such a canal as we are considering quite to the Atlantic 
 coast, or be discharged in Mobile Bay, with sea-going craft for any port in the world, 
 with the expense only of being once handled. It is stated that through a canal across 
 Florida the distance of Mobile from New York or Liverpool would he but three hun- 
 dred and seventy-five to four hundred miles farther than is Savannah; and Mobile, sit- 
 uated at the outlet of the Alabama, Warrior, and Tombigbee Rivers, making Mobile 
 River, is the natural shipping-point of a much more extensive and productive scope 
 of country than is Savannah. 
 
 Looking ahead to the period not far distant when the exhaustless store of coal in 
 Alabama will be utilized, no point on our coast will offer greater attractions than are 
 ours to steamships as a coaling-station, or for the exportation of coal to foreign coun- 
 tries. Our magnificent harbor, admitting ships over the bar at its entrance of the 
 heaviest tonnage, capacious and deep, is land-locked and entirely secure from the 
 storms of the ocean. 
 
 So immense would be the tonnage passed through such a canal as that now under dis- 
 cussion from Mobile, New Orleans, and Galveston, it is estimated that only a very small 
 tonnage-due would need be exacted to make its construction and maintenance a very 
 insignificant expense to the General Government, while it would confer inestimable 
 benefits upon a larger part of the population of the United States than any other pro- 
 ject that has been suggested. 
 
 The best route for such a canal could of course be only determined by actual surveys, 
 though that which would seem to secure the best results is one discussed in the South- 
 ern Commercial Convention, a year or two since, viz : from Saint Mark's Bay, thirty-five 
 miles, to the Little Warrior River, thence up that stream to the confluence of the Suwa- 
 nee and Santa Fe' Rivers, forty-five miles, which would bring it to within sixty miles 
 of the deep tide- water of the Saint John's River in East Florida. 
 
 We do not venture now upon any elaborate statistical details, which are easily 
 accessible when such earnest interest is elicited as to make them essential, and which 
 the Government at Washington will not fail to consider. This report is designed more 
 particularly to bring before the proper authorities the importance of the work and to 
 elicit inquiry. 
 
 As an adjunct to this interesting subject, we incidentally allude to the connection of 
 the Mississippi River by a canal with the waters of the Gulf of Mexico, a work of insig- 
 nificant , magnitude, compared with the first mentioned, but absolutely essential to 
 make the latter available for the great West, and the improvement of the Mississippi 
 River itself. The construction of these works, it seems to us, affords the most ready 
 solution of the great problem of cheap transportation which has of late assumed such 
 profound interest in the potential Western States. The development of new lines of 
 cheap transportation to the sea by such a water-route as we have suggested must ac- 
 complish far more for the producers of that important section of the country than .any 
 facilities that can be afforded by the best-managed railway. We need not argue the 
 axiomatic truth' that the net yield to the producer is enhanced to the exact proportion 
 that the expense of getting his commodities to the consumer, wherever that may be, 
 is diminished ; the subject is fertile in its suggestivenes3 and capable of most elaborate 
 expansion but perhaps we have said enough to excite the attention and prompt and 
 critical examination, its truly national importance demands, and we submit our report, 
 imperfect and crude as it is for your respectful consideration. 
 
 Very respectfully, c w BUTT 
 
 Chairman Committee on Commerce. 
 
 There was a proposition made by the Saint Louis Board of Trade a 
 long time ago for this Mississippi boat-canal. I had the pleasure of. 
 
806 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 some correspondence with the president of the board of trade in refer- 
 ence to the matter, endeavoring to enlist him iu the larger scheme of a 
 ship-canal, as opposed to the boat-canal, thinking that would be more 
 worthy of the attention of the Government. The ship-canal would 
 accommodate all his purposes and enlist in its behalf the whole of the 
 Southern States. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. Can you give us the length ! . 
 
 Answer. According to this programme which I have suggested in this 
 paper, which I took from one of the reports of the national board of 
 trade, it was — I cannot give you the length entirely, but there seemed 
 to be about a hundred and five miles of actual digging. They had to 
 clean out the channels of the rivers. They were suggested, I suppose, 
 as being natural water-ways, that would require less expenditure to 
 make them available than otherwise. 
 
 By Mr. CONOVER : 
 
 Question. Have you estimated the expense of digging this ship-canal 
 as you propose ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; I have here a report made by one of our own civil 
 engineers, a man of some repute, and who is now dead : 
 
 Mobile, September 17, 1872. 
 
 Dear Sir: In reply to the request with which you have honored me, that I would 
 furnish to the hoard of trade such information as I have, and also my views touching 
 a ship-canal across the peninsula of Florida, I beg leave to present the following : 
 
 Upward of a quarter of a century has elapsed since I first noticed the agitation of 
 this project in the newspapers. During this time several instrumental surveys for the 
 canal were made ; but to this day, so far as I am able to learn, it has not been ascer- 
 tained whether a ship-canal, with adequate depth of water, can be made at reasonable 
 expense across the peninsula of Florida from the Gulf of Mexico to the Atlantic Ocean. 
 The ship-canal, in order to answer the purposes wanted, must have properly-protected 
 terminal harbors, with sufficient depth of water. The canal, if compelled to traverse 
 elevated districts, must surmount the elevation by locks supplied by lakes or reservoirs. 
 If, however, the canal can pass through districts with slight elevation above tide- 
 water, it may be made on a uniform level, and be supplied with water from the Gulf 
 and ocean. Its ends will either have to he protected by guard-locks, or the canal will 
 communicate freely with theGulf and ocean without guard-locks, as circumstances may 
 require. It is evident that if the canal can be constructed on a level from the Gulf to 
 the ocean, it will be more efficient in every respect than if it has to overcome an eleva- 
 tion. From all the information I can collect, and from conversations had with persons 
 who have visited the country, I am induced to believe that a very efficient ship-canal, 
 with adequate depth of water, can be made at no great cost across the peninsula of 
 Florida, from the Gulf of Mexico to the Atlantic Ocean. Tampa Bay, on the Gulf 
 side of Florida affords a naturally well-protected harbor, with ample depth of 
 water for freights. The bar obstructing the entance has two clear and well-defined 
 channels through it, one of which has a least depth of water of 19£ feet. This 
 channel can probably be permanently deepened. No works to protect vessels from 
 winds and waves in storms will be required in this harbor. East of Tampa Bay, in a 
 distance of one hundred and twenty-five miles across the peninsula, at its narrowest 
 part, with one exception, the maps show on the Atlantic coast of Florida depths of 27 
 and 28 feet water quite close to shore, and thence to the broad expanse of the Atlantic 
 a free and unobstructed way for vessels. A breakwater will be here required to form 
 an artificial harbor of protection for vessels. The land intervening between these two 
 points on the Gulf and Atlantic is described to me by an intelligent gentleman who 
 has been over it, as being level, with only a few feet elevation above tide-water, and 
 as presenting no obstacles of moment to the construction of a canal that can be sup- 
 plied with water from the Gulf and ocean, and that will permit the free transit of all 
 vessels which can enter the terminal harbors. The first thing to be done for the 
 accomplishment of this important project is to have a thorough reconnaissance made 
 for the canal. This reconnaissance is a necessary preliminary of a survey, and cannot 
 cost much. If executed properly, it will demonstrate the practicability or impracti- 
 cability of the can al. It will also determine whether it is worth while to expend 
 money in making an instrumental survey ; and it will, besides, indicate the routes for 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 807 
 
 the canal which should be instrumental^ examined. In a national point of view the 
 importance of this ship-canal cannot be overrated. The passage around the southern 
 point of Florida, which vessels engaged in the North Atlantic trade, entering and 
 leaving the Gnlf, are compelled to make for about five hundred miles, is narrow, sub- 
 ject to tornadoes, and is beset with concealed reefs, upon which a rapid current has a 
 tendency to carry vessels. The consequent dangers are such that it costs on an aver- 
 age three-eighths of one per cent, more to insure for a Gnlf than for au Atlantic port. 
 Twenty-five years ago the Acting Secretary of the Treasury estimated the amount of 
 commerce compelled to use this passage at §320,000.000 per annum. Three-eighths of 
 one per cent, on this would give ;-2,376,000 as the increased amount of insurance 
 which must be paid annually on account of the dangers of the straits of Florida. 
 This tax would, in ten years or less time, amount to a sum sufficient, in all probability, 
 to pay for the entire cost of the caual, and would in a great measure be saved by its 
 possession. Nor is this the only saving that would be effected by the canal. A large 
 additional saving to commerce will be accomplished from the use by vessels of the 
 short and uninterrupted passage across Florida by the ship-canal instead of the long 
 and obstructed passage around the peninsula now used. A work which will cause 
 these savings to the nation ought certainly to he considered pre-eminently a national 
 work. There is another consideration which makes this canal highly important in a 
 national point of view. One side of the pass around Florida belongs to a foreign 
 power, and its possession, in time of war, by a capable hostile power, would cause 
 serious losses to the United States, producing perhaps an entire interruption of com- 
 mercial communications by water with the Gulf. The Florida ship-canal, passing, for 
 its entire length, through the territory of the United States, may be rendered impreg- 
 nable, so to speak, and would prevent this interruption of commercial communica- 
 tions with the Gulf. The Florida ship-canal will be valuable to Mobile not only on 
 account of savings to her business, in insurance, &c, but because it will afford 
 throughout cheap water-transportation to her route of commerce, while the routes of 
 commerce of the South Atlantic ports must, of necessity, have expensive transporta- 
 tion by railroad. Assuming Selma as tbe point at which commences competition 
 between Mobile and the ports of the South Atlantic for the trade of the interior, the 
 proposed canal will substitute 1,050 miles of water-transportation by river, ship-canal, 
 and ocean on the Mobile route for 437 miles of railroad and 170 miles of ocean trans- 
 portation on the route via Savannah. Considering the cost of water-transportation 
 by ocean — good river and ship-canal is at least eight times cheaper than that of rail- 
 road transportation— it is clear that Mobile will enjoy from the canal great advantages 
 over the South Atlantic ports in competing for the trade of the interior. 
 Very respectfully, your obedient servant, 
 
 Price 'Wtixiams, Esq., President Mobile Board of Trade. 
 
 I have heard some crude estimates made, for which I cannot vouch, 
 that it would cost, perhaps, $7,000,000 to build that canal. The points 
 to be considered are, first, getting a proper outlet on the Gulf and At- 
 lantic coasts. Our shores are shallow generally, and we must have a 
 harbor on either side, and it has been suggested that this Saint Mark's 
 Bay route and through the Saint John's Eiver would give us ample 
 draught of water to admit vessels suitable for the trade. We do not 
 require big ships. 
 
 Question. Tou can get an outlet from the Suwanee Eiver into the 
 
 Gulf? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; the idea was not to use that, but to take some lit- 
 tle stream before you get to the Suwanee going down the coast, which 
 they call the Little Warrior 1 Eiver, making a canal of that. The idea 
 occurred to us that, if the Government would undertake the work, it 
 would involve these general interests to which I have referred, and 
 then a small charge would in time liquidate the whole expense and keep 
 the canal in order. I believe a petition has already been presented to 
 Congress for a survey. . 
 
 Examination of Hon. Price Williams. 
 
 Mr Williams. Mr. Chairman, the subject assigned to me is the 
 opening of the bay and harbor of Mobile. This is a question which 
 
808 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 you -will doubtless recollect has frequently been before your body, and 
 several appropriations have been made for our benefit. 
 
 By Mr. WEST : 
 Question. How much money was appropriated last year ? 
 Answer. One hundred thousand dollars. 
 
 Without entering upon any details to show the importance of opening the river and 
 harbor of Mobile, so indispensable to the commerce of a large portion of the Southern 
 and Western States, the commercial advantages of Mobile, as an entrepdt of imports 
 and exports, and as a great coaling depot, will be shown by the- various reports which 
 will be presented by my committee at our present sitting. 
 
 WIDTH OF CHANNEL. 
 
 General Reese, in his report to the Chief of Engineers, at Washington, D. C, recom- 
 mended the opening of Choctaw Pass Bar and the Dog River Bar to a width of 300 
 feet. (See report of 1871, page 559.) 
 
 General Simpson, the local engineer who followed General Reese, recommended the 
 opening of Choctaw Pass Bar to a width of 200. feet and that of Dog River Bar 250 
 feet, with a depth of 13 feet to both. (Same report, page 560.) 
 
 The board of engineers which met in Mobile in February, 1872, under special com- 
 mission to inspect these works, reported and recommended a width of 200 feet through 
 both bars until a comparative permanency of the work can be tested. (See General 
 Simpson's report to chief engineer, 1872, page 592.) 
 
 * If the dredging shall prove a success no doubt the engineering department will 
 recommend them to be opened as recommended by General Reese, to a width of 300 
 feet. 
 
 APPROPRIATIONS BY CONGRESS. 
 
 1. Jnly 11, 1870 - $50 000 
 
 2. March 3, 1871 50 000 
 
 3. June 10, 1872 75 000 
 
 4. March 3, 1873 100 000 
 
 275 000 
 
 APPROPRIATION BY STATE BOARD. 
 
 Expended in dredging, removing obstructions, constructing jettees, &c, 
 about $200 000 
 
 Additional appropriation asked for of Congress at the present session 145 000 
 
 With this it is expected to complete the dredging through both bars, 200 feet wide 
 and 13 feet deep, at mean low tide. This, at high tide, will admit vessels drawing 15 
 feet water. 
 
 CONTRACTS. 
 
 The first contracts were awarded Capt. John Grant, in 1870, at 50 cents per cubic 
 yard, for excavating. 
 
 The second to Mr. S. N. Iiimbal^, in 1871, at 39i cents per cubic yard. 
 
 The third to Capt. John Grant, in 1872, at 30 cents per cubic yard. 
 
 The fourth to Capt. John Grant, in 1873, at 23 cents per cubic yard. 
 
 Mr. S. N. Kimball did the most of the work with his improved Osgood dredge on 
 these contracts. 
 
 The Choctaw Pass Bar has been opened 200 feet wide and 13 feet deep, but has been 
 somewhat obstructed by the wash of sand. The Dog River Bar channel has been cut 
 its whole length 60 feet wide and 13 feet deep. 
 
 Under the fourth contract work is now being executed on the Dog River Bar chan- 
 nel in opening it to a width of 120 feet, and 'it is supposed that this channel will be 
 completed 120 feet wide, 13 feet deep, and the obstructions in Choctaw Point channel 
 
TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOARD. 809 
 
 removed by the first of the summer of 1874, out of the last appropriation of $100,000 
 made in March, 1873. I am placed under obligations to Major Damrell for concise 
 tabular statement of appropriations by Congress, the prices for different contracts, 
 amount of excavations, results, &c, marked Exhibit A. 
 
 Additional appropriation aslced. 
 
 The Chief Engineer has asked of Congress an additional appropriation of $145,000, 
 an amount which it is supposed will complete the Dog River Bar channel to a width 
 of 200 feet and a depth of 13 feet. This is important as it will close out the present 
 plan of work during the next year. 
 
 "We present Mobile with its water-outlets and its tributaries by rivers and railroads 
 as one of the prominent national points. We would ask the Transportation Committee 
 to take this point into serious consideration while they are making reconnaissances in 
 the South and West with a view of supplying the growing wants of these sections with 
 a well-digested plan of transportation. 
 
 Mobile, we believe, must be the great coaling depot for steamers plying between the 
 Atlantic and Pacific ports ; Alabama abounds with the best of coal for generating 
 steam, and Mobile is the most accessible point for its outlet. 
 
 It is the opionion of many persons whose views are worthy of consideration that one 
 of the water-connections between the West and the Gulf of Mexico and Atlantic 
 Ocean, by rivers, canals, and locks will be via Mobile. 
 
 All which is respectfully submitted December 22, 1873. 
 
810 
 
 1*3tANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 
 
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TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 811 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. How much water have you in your lower bay 1 
 
 Answer. There is 21 to 23 feet of water ou the lower bar. 
 
 Question. How close can a vessel drawiDg 21 or 22 feet come to the 
 City of Mobile? 
 
 Answer. Twenty-six miles. 
 
 Question. Twenty-six miles to the head of your lower bay ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. And these improvements that you speak of connect the 
 upper bay with the lower bay t 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; and connect the city with the lower bay. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. There is a pocket about four miles long ; what is called 
 Dog River Bar is not a bar. When the rivers come in they flow in 
 different channels, and it widens suddenly into a broad bay. The sand 
 deposits there, and it is uniform all the way across. They call it Dog 
 River Bar, but it is not a particular bar. We cut throughthat and get 
 into deep water. It deepens gradually all the way down. It is a pocket, 
 and that pocket is soft black mud. It is a good ground, perfectly aafe, 
 and large vessels lie there. Dog River Bar is nine miles from town, but 
 it deepens gradually. 
 
 By Mr. Gonover : 
 
 Question. What depth of water is there now over the shallowest bar 
 coming to the city "? 
 
 Answer. About 13 feet now, with the exception of the one at Choc- 
 taw Pass Bar, which is just at the lower edge of the city. That has been 
 somewhat filled up by cross currents, but there is a Government order 
 here to have it opened, and it will be opened very soon. There is a 
 channel now 13 feet deep at mean low tide ; at high tide 15 feet. The 
 lower channel is now only 60 feet wide, but is now being excavated to 
 120 feet. We want a sufficient appropriation to widen it to 200 feet. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. How do you propose to get from the lower bay to the City 
 of Mobile ? Will you have to lighter ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir, in the case of vessels drawing above 15 feet of water. 
 Of course the larger vessels cannot come beyond that, but it is in anti- 
 cipation that a class of vessels will be built for the commercial ports 
 here that will pass over these bars, when they are completed to thirteen 
 feet, mean low tide. 
 
 Examination of Mr. Thomas A. Hamilton. 
 
 Mr. Hamilton. Mr. Chairman, I am sorry that I have not had time 
 to write out upon this subject what I would have liked. I take it, in ref- 
 erence to all these matters, if the committee will pardon me, that the 
 main thing to be borne in mind, perhaps, is, the want of the country, 
 and the facilities that Mobile Bay, or any other point, will furnish for 
 the general good of the whole. Now the West, as we understand it, 
 are seeking transportation. We all see the pressure for getting the 
 produce of the West to a port, and particularly to foreign ports, and we 
 see how the Erie Canal has been crowded. We see the efforts being 
 made to use the Canada route, and efforts made also to bring into use 
 a route across the State of Virginia. This brings, up at once, and 
 naturally to us who are upon the Gulf, the question of what facilities 
 mav be afforded by Gulf ports* In that connection, believing as we do 
 that Mobile is, by all odds, the best port on the Gulf of Mexico, and 
 
812 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 equal, perhaps, to almost any port in the country to be used for pur- 
 poses of foreign transportation, it becomes important that we should 
 consider what may be necessary to utilize that in connection with this 
 demand for transportation of Western produce more particularly. In 
 looking at that we see at once, knowing as we do that water- transpor- 
 tation is much cheaper than railroad transportation, and knowing, too, 
 that transportation through a country which is not frozen up in the 
 winter season is to be preferred to one which is frozen up for several 
 months, at least, in the year, and then observing that our position lies 
 in a way connected with the Mississippi Eiver, which is the grand nat- 
 ural outlet for the West, and which is never closed, at least through a 
 large portion of its extent, by ice, and observing that at the mouth of 
 the Mississippi Eiver there is difficulty, the question comes in reference 
 to Mobile, cannot this be made available, and very largely so, to relieve 
 this great trouble at the West ? 
 
 In connection with that also, come up some other questions ; that is, 
 the value of the harbor of Mobile for commercial purposes, and its con- 
 nection with commercial products. The State of Alabama, as we are 
 satisfied, and as I believe the whole country is now satisfied, is rich in 
 mineral products, no State, probably, more so. Iron and coal in the 
 greatest abundance exist in close- proximity to each other and cover a 
 large portion of the State of Alabama, which, owing to circumstances, 
 has not yet been opened to market, but which, in all probability, very 
 soon will be, at least, to a degree. The demands of commerce for steam 
 navigation must inevitably bring this coal into demand, and there is no 
 point where it can be so well furnished as at Mobile. That coal is in 
 existence, as I have stated, in the largest imaginable abundance in cer- 
 tain portions of the State of Alabama. And in that same connection, 
 iron, with its great uses, and under present circumstances the failure of 
 iron, at least in England, and questions arising where it can be made 
 cheapest and best; and as we believe that it -can really be gotten 
 cheaper in Alabama than in Pennsylvania, or anywhere else in this 
 country, it brings that as a matter likely to be prominent in the future 
 of the whole country. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. State the distance at which you find that coal and iron. 
 
 Answer. Inasmuch as there is another committee charged with that, 
 I propose to state this only in a general way, as showing the importance 
 of the harbor of Mobile as being used in the other connection, and also 
 in connection with our own products. 
 
 Now, if there were nothing to be considered but the demands purely 
 of the West, and these others I only mention as incidental, the questioL 
 occurs, how can Mobile and its harbor be made useful ? In New Or- 
 leans, according to my recollection, certainly there is always trouble in 
 getting vessels of any considerable draught out and in. New Orleans 
 itself lies some hundred miles from the mouth of the Mississippi. My 
 recollection is that the depth of water to be relied upon at their outer 
 bar is not more than 16 feet. If I am wrong I will be glad to be cor- 
 rected. 
 
 Mr. West. That is natural depth. 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; and seems to be an impossibility with the tremen- 
 dous current, &c, of that river, and its continual deposit of sediment, 
 as it flows outward, or next to an impossibility, at all events, to remedy 
 that trouble. The way never has yet been found. When we look at 
 Mobile we find a perfectly secure anchorage ; a harbor large enough to 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 813 
 
 contain any number of vessels, and where water is of at least equal 
 depth with any water they can bring over the outer bar. 
 
 The quantity of water on the outer bar will be shown accurately by 
 the Coast Survey ; my recollection is 21 to 22 feet. Higher up in the 
 bay the water shoals, it is true, so that they cannot bring to the city 
 now more than 13 feet. That will be remedied, I suppose, to some 
 extent. 
 
 Now, can this harbor be used for the benefit of carrying abroad the 
 commerce of the west ? To answer that it might be necessary only to 
 say that it has happened, and does happen now, that cotton comes 
 frequently from New Orleans, or not unfrequently from New Orleans, 
 to be loaded on large vessels in Mobile Bay to go abroad. I will not 
 say that is an every-day occurrence, but it does happen. Then, when 
 we look to see, we find that at the Pass Manchac, during the war of 
 1812, there was a natural outlet and communication between the Missis- 
 sippi Eiver and Lake Pontchartrain, and Lake Pontchartrain connects 
 directly, or almost directly — it does through Grand Pass directly — with 
 the waters of Mobile Bay. That pass was closed by General Jackson 
 for the purpose of national defense, and only for the purpose of national 
 defense. That pass has remained closed from that day to this. What 
 has been once of course may be again, and it seems to us that inasmuch 
 as that was closed for national purposes, it is only right that it should 
 be opened again when it will afford relief to a national trouble. 
 
 In looking to see how that matter stands I find, and here is the report, 
 that some. years ago the report was made by direction of Congress upon 
 an examination of the cost and trouble of opening that communication 
 With Mobile Bay, &c. 
 
 Having reached this point, I propose now to read what was formerly 
 a report- written by my friend Colonel Stewart upon this subject a great 
 deal more carefully than I have had time to do it now : 
 
 The report, however, shows that a lock is necessary, with auxiliary looks at the 
 Mississippi River, to control the flow of its water into the Bayou. The reason is that 
 the Mississippi rises, in high water, to a great height— say, in 1662, a height of 32 feet 
 above low water at that point. This corroborates the view we had entertained, that 
 such a lock was necessary for several reasons : first, to prevent the flooding of the low 
 lancls on the Bayou and Amite ; second, to prevent the carrying of mud into the 
 lakes ; and third, because a flood at high water would create too rapid a current in 
 the Bayou — whereas the great merit of the Manchac route is that the river is reached 
 at that point with slack- water navigation. 
 
 The estimate for this lock and its auxiliaries is set forth as follows : 
 
 p iles .', $01,000 00 
 
 Superstructure....' ^'SSf ™ 
 
 Three flood-gates, &c ' 72, 368 60 
 
 Machinery to work flood-gates , ■>»> WU uu 
 
 1,352,408 GO 
 
 Making the grand total of the whole work, for the navigation of first-class steam- 
 boats, ready for use, §3,800,444.45. . 
 
 This then, is the result of the report returned to the inquiry of the Senate, showing 
 that the object is a practicable one, to be accomplished at, a cost trifling, when com- 
 pared with the results it would produce. 
 
 In the discussion of this matter in the West, and also m the report above mentioned, 
 there have been differences expressed as to the proper point tor the opening to be 
 made in the Mississippi. The report proposes other points as more favorable— say one 
 above New Orleans at Bonnet Carre", and another below New Orleans from the English 
 Turn into Lake Borene. The reason given is that at those points the river does not 
 rise so high, and therefore, although the land is alluvial, it is said it can be done at 
 less cost. To this we of Mobile may well say that it is indifferent to us where the 
 communication is opened, so that it be opened, and we may leave the question as to 
 where, to be settled between the people of the West and Louisiana. We will only 
 
814 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 remark that as to Bayou Manohao, we have the right to demand that it be opened, as 
 it was a natural channel and closed artificially for purposes of defense, which creates 
 the duty, in justice to us, to restore to us the natural flow of the water alter the neces- 
 sity ceased. ..... • i. -n i 
 
 Your delegation, in respect to the means by which this communication shall be re- 
 stored, urged the propriety and duty of Congress to have the pass opened, because it is 
 our right and because the passage should be made free for all vessels without charge. 
 Formerly Bayou Manchac was a natural outlet of the Mississippi, leaving the river at 
 a point over two hundred miles from the Balize, and about twelve miles below Baton 
 Rouge, and running in an eastward direction, about twenty-two miles, till it fell into 
 the Amite River ; running down the Amite River to Lake Maurepas, say thirty-five 
 or forty miles. The route then crosses that lake, which, by the Pass Manchac, com- 
 municates with Lake Pontchartrain, crossing which the pass called the Rigolets leads 
 into the Mississippi Sound. 
 
 At the present time Bayou Manchac is navigable to a point where Bayou Crocodile 
 falls into it, say eight miles-from the Mississippi. From this point down, the land 
 is flat and level, but from here to the great river the land rises ; the bayou passes 
 through a region of stiff blue clay, the banks of the bayou are steep and often perpen- 
 dicular, and at Bayou Crocodile are about 10 feet high, and the river bank at the 
 Mississippi is about 28 feet high, with a levee on the top of it. From a depth of about 
 7 feet at Bayou Crocodile, the water shallows, till at the Mississippi bank it is now dry 
 at low water. The water flowed through formerly, but now the bayou has been par- 
 tially filled by washing of earth and growth, so that if the obstruction at the river 
 was opened, it would require a rise of 13 feet 6 inches to throw the water through the 
 bayou. The level of the tide-water comes up to Bayou Crocodile, and this level is 
 2 feet and f of an inch below the level of the Mississippi at its extreme low-water 
 line. 
 
 On the Bayou Manchac and in the Amite River there is no current ; the current is 
 moved either way by the wind. At times, high water comes down the Amite, which 
 backs up the water in the bayon up to the Mississippi, but it soons run out. Conse- 
 quently, it is seen that the navigation from the sound up to Bayou Crocodile is one of 
 slack- water, without current. A small steamer is now running on the Bayou Manchac 
 up to Ward's Creek with 7 feet of water, to which point the bayou has been cleared 
 out by cutting the logs, stooping trees, &c. 
 
 Your committee were furnished by Colonel Shryock with a copy of a report made 
 from the Engineer Department of the Army, communicated to the Senate of the 
 United States by the Secretary of War on the 25th of January, 1868. The Senate, on 
 the 11th of March, 1867, passed a resolution directing the Secretary of War " to detail 
 an officer of the Engineer Corps of the Army for the purpose of surveying Bayou 
 Manchac, connecting with the Amite River and leading into Lake Maurepas and Lake 
 Pontchartrain, and report the cost of opening these streams with bayons to first-class 
 steamboat navigation.'' This survey was made in 1867 by Lieutenant Heslip, and the 
 surveys, plats, maps, and estimates were returned and laid before the Senate. This 
 report was read in the Senate on the 27th January last, ordered to be printed, and re- 
 ferred to the Committee on Comnierce, and on the 27th of February, 1868, 3,000 addi- 
 tional copies were ordered to be printed. (See Fortieth Congress, second session, Sen- 
 ate Ex. Doc. No. 31.) A copy of this report with the maps and plans is herewith filed. 
 
 From this report it is shown that in order to open this channel for first-class steam- 
 boats, the cost will be as follows, premising this statement with what was considered 
 in this connection first-class steamboats, as to which the steamer Mary, the largest of 
 the steamers of the mail-line plying between Mobile and New Orleans, was taken as 
 the standard, say 235 feet long, 60 feet beam, including guards, and 6 feet 6 inches draught 
 for ordinary boats, such as may navigate the sound's and lakes : 
 
 Cost of surveys and laying out the work $10, 000 00 
 
 Clearing and felling timber along the route 4, 500 00 
 
 Clearing out bars in Lakes Pontchartrain and Maurepas and Bayou Man- 
 chac from Bayou Crocodile down 629, 724 25 
 
 Clearing out drift-wood out of Bayou Manchac, 8 miles 1,600 00 
 
 Excavations for canal from Bayou Crocodile to the Mississippi 2, 052, 219 60 
 
 Total clearing out 2,698,043 85 
 
 I will state to the committee that from an examination of those sur- 
 veys and reports it would seem that one of these other lines would be 
 very much cheaper, costing not exceeding, apparently, $800,000, and, 
 as a matter of course, so far as the country is concerned, it is of no 
 consequence where the connection is made, provided the outlet is made 
 which gives the benefit of Mobile Harbor to the commerce which de- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 815 
 
 mands that outlet. Therefore it would seem very likely that one of 
 these other routes may be the better course to be pursued. The diffi- 
 culty possibly to be apprehended about that would be that New Orleans, 
 or whoever the owners of that canal at present in operation may be, 
 would say, ''This is our private property; " and they might say, also, 
 with reference to a movement in the State of Louisiana, and confined 
 to the State of Louisiana, that that was a thing which the State of 
 Louisiana should control. As to these matters, of course they are mat- 
 ters for the consideration of you, gentlemen, and those in authority. 
 But there is certainly the route that can be opened, and there is a route 
 which, in case there is any difficulty in the way of any others, it seems 
 to me that the whole country has a right to demand should be opened, 
 and opened in such a way as to be free of cost to the commerce desir- 
 ing to use it. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. Are you prepared to say that precisely the same character 
 of steamboat that loads produce at Saint Louis is capable of navigating 
 Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi Sound ? 
 
 Answer. I will undertake to say this, that for years as fine boats as 
 any that I have met with in the country, although I will not say as 
 large, so far as draught of water is concerned, as some of these fine 
 boats on the Mississippi, navigated here for years and years and years, 
 between Mobile and New Orleans, going through Grant's Pass and the 
 Mississippi Sound and Lake Pontchartrain without any imaginable 
 trouble. 
 
 Examination of Mr. Andrew M. Damrell, United States Engineer 
 Corps. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. What is the distance from Mobile to the outer bar ? 
 
 Answer. Thirty-three miles. It is thirty-five miles to the outer bar 
 buoy. 
 
 Question. Which would be called the outer bar ? 
 
 Answer. Thirty-five miles is where they take their course; that is, 
 beyond the bar where vessels shape their course for any other port. 
 
 Question. What distance is it from there to the outer fleet or outer 
 bay? 
 
 Answer. It is about six miles to the lower edge. 
 
 Question. What is the character of the channel— what depth of water 
 have you? 
 
 .Answer. Twenty-one feet is the least at mean low tide. 
 
 Question. What is the general depth of water in the lower fleet— the 
 maximum and minimum ? 
 
 Answer. The minimum is 19 feet ; the maximum is 22 ,feet. 
 
 Question. What do you call the space between the upper and lower 
 
 fleet? 
 
 Answer. There is no name-given to that. 
 
 Question. That is a bar, is it"? 
 
 Answer. No, sir : that is a very level surface on the bottom, with a 
 depth of about 13 feet. 
 
 Question. What is the distance between the lower fleet and the upper 
 
 fleet or bay ? 
 Answer. Fifteen miles. 
 Question. What is the size of the upper fleet ! 
 
816 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Answer. It is about four square miles. 
 
 Question. What are the soundings f 
 
 Answer. Thirteen feet depth. 
 
 Question. What is the character of the channel from the upper fleet 
 to the landing? 
 
 Answer. There are two bars called Dog Eiver Bar and Choctaw Pass 
 Bar. 
 
 Question. What part of the channel are you making improvements 
 upon now 1 
 
 Answer. On both of the bars mentioned. 
 
 Question. What is the length of the work between the upper and 
 lower fleet — the length of your dredging 1 
 
 Answer. It is from the city to the upper fleet. 
 
 Question. Have you any dredging below ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; there is 13 feet of water below. 
 
 Question. You are now dredging from the upper fleet to the landing 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. What is that distance ? 
 
 Answer. Seven and a half miles. 
 
 Question. To what extent has that improvement been now made t 
 
 Answer. Choctaw Pass has been opened to a width of 200 feet and a 
 depth of 13 feet. 
 
 Question. How about the other ? 
 
 Answer. Dog-Biver bar has been opened to a depth of 13 feet and a 
 width of 60 feet way through, and about half-way through to a width 
 of 120 feet, and a depth of 13 feet. 
 
 Question. What is the ordinary course of a ship coming from Liver- 
 pool ? It remains in the outer fleet and is loaded by lighters, is it ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Is the anchorage good ? 
 
 Answer. Very good. There is none better on the coast. 
 
 Question. What is the description of the map of the coast-survey 
 which gives the detail of Mobile Bay ? Is there any particular number 
 given to it f 
 
 Answer. No, sir. It is the coast-survey chart of Mobile Bay, dated 
 1864. The channel that was dug or dredged through Choctaw Pass has 
 filled in since it was dredged, or partially so. The estimate of the 
 amount of filling is 36,000 cubic yards since it was opened. 
 
 Question. What is the drainage into the bay from the rivers ! Is 
 there any mud like the Mississippi streams carry down ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. There is some. 
 
 Question. What is the general character of the water on those 
 streams 1 Water like the Mississippi ? 
 
 Answer. There is not so much sediment in the water here as in the 
 Mississippi. 
 
 Question. They bring down more or less sediment always ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir j more or less. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. During what length of time has that filling taken place? 
 Answer. It all filled during a freshet in a few days. 
 
 By Mr. Williams, (to the witness :) 
 
 You think from your report adopted by the United States Engineer 
 Corps, that this will be remedied hereafter by certain work which they 
 have assigned to your Department f 
 
 Answer. I think it will. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 817 
 
 Mr. Hamilton. I might state that many years ago there was dredg- 
 ing done over Dog-Eiver Bar, iu 1839 or 1840, or thereabouts, uuder the 
 direction of the United States Government, and up to the time of the 
 ■war the statements were that that water still remained the same, and 
 that there had been no filling in at this place. I think that was the 
 general understanding that that dredging had stood without any dimi 
 nution of the water. 
 
 By Mr. Dayis, (to Major Damrell :) 
 Question. Is there any obstruction which was caused during the war 1 
 Answer. Tes, sir, there are several, but not at the present time to 
 interfere with the commerce of the port. 
 
 Question. Had the bars that you speak of been cleaned or dredged, 
 previous to your doing it, at any time before the war ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; there has been dredging done in Choctaw Pass 
 and on Dog-River Bar. 
 Question. Had it filled up ? 
 
 Answer. At a very slow rate ; the exact rate I do not know. We 
 have no means of determining except what I have heard from other 
 parties. 
 
 Question. Do I understand you correctly, that it is thirty-three miles 
 from here to the sea ? 
 
 Answer. Thirty-five miles to what a sailor would call the sea, that is 
 to the outer-bar buoy. 
 
 Question. Then you cross over the outer bar with 21 feet minimum 1 
 Answer. Yes, sir, at mean low tide. 
 
 Question. How far do you come 21 feet before you are reduced to 13 
 feet. 
 Answer. About ten miles. 
 
 Question. Prom that up to the city 13-feet vessels can come at all 
 times, I understand you ? 
 
 Answer. Except iu Choctaw Pass, where filling has taken place since 
 dredging. ' 
 Question. What depth is there ? 
 Answer. About 9 feet now. 
 
 Question. Do 1 understand you to say that 9 feet is as large a draught 
 of vessel as can come up ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; at low-tide through Choctaw Pass. More can be 
 carried through Spanish Eiver. 
 Question. What is Spanish Eiver ? 
 
 Answer. It is a stream running from Mobile Eiver into the bay— to 
 the eastward of it. 
 
 Question. What is the largest vessel which can now come into the 
 bay by any route, and reach this city, coming here to load at your 
 wharves f 
 Answer. Do you mean at any time ? 
 Question. Yes, at any ordinary tide. 
 Answer. I think about 10 feet at ordinary tide. 
 Question. You speak of the pass being 9 feet, do you contemplate 
 with your present appropriation making it 13 feet ? 
 Answer. By the first of next May it will be open to 13 feet. 
 Question. With your present appropriation 1 
 
 Question. Will that be permanent, or will it be changing from year 
 
 to v6&r ^ 
 Answer. It is absolutely impossible to answer that question. 
 
 52 X s 
 
818 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Question. What is your opinion ? 
 
 Answer. My opinion is that it will fill slowly. 
 
 Question. What do you call slowly ? 
 
 Answer. About 2 inches a year. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. There are two modes of reaching Mobile, one by this, 
 and the other by the Spanish River. The large vessels all come round 
 by the Spanish Eiver. 
 
 The Witness. The question was by any route. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. That is it. I wish to find the true position of your bay, 
 what it is to-day and what it is likely to be. You say it has filled in ; 
 to what extent has it filled in ; what was the depth on the bar here pre- 
 vious to its filling in 1 
 
 Answer. Thirteen feet when the bar formed. 
 
 Question. Now, if it filled in in a year from 13 so that you can get 
 but 9, by what mode do you calculate that it would fill in but 2 inches, 
 in future, per annum ? 
 
 Answer. There are two works which were constructed while this im- 
 provement was going on, which, I think, caused the greater portion of 
 the filling. We propose to remove those two works. 
 
 Question. I understand that you have asked for an additional appro- 
 priation of $145,000. 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. How is that to be expended 1 
 
 Answer. In widening the cut through Dog Eiver Bar. The first cut 
 through was 60 feet. It is now being widened to 120 feet under the 
 present appropriation. The appropriation asked for is intended to 
 widen it to 200 feet. 
 
 Question. What particular advantage would it be to have it 200 feet 
 instead of 120 feet wide ? 
 
 Answer. The wider it is the better it will be for commerce. Two hun- 
 dred feet was adopted as the minimum for convenience. The width is 
 merely a matter of convenience for the commerce. 
 
 Question. Would it add anything to the commerce 
 
 Answer. If it was 120 feet wide vessels would be much more likely to 
 get aground in it, and, possibly, fill it up. The greater the width the 
 less difficulty there would be in navigating it. 
 
 By Mr. Williams, (to the witness :) 
 
 Question. You said just now that perhaps a vessel could not come to 
 this city drawing over 10 feet. Where would it come to the obstruc- 
 tion between 13 and 10 feet. 
 
 Answer. It would be at the mouth of Spanish Eiver. 
 
 Question There is a bar at the mouth of Spanish Eiver of 10 feet ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; it is about that. 
 
 Question. But when you get this open in May, vessels drawing 13 
 feet can come in ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. I understood you to say tbat you proposed to use the ap- 
 propriation for the next fiscal year for the purpose of clearing out Dog 
 Eiver bar from a width of 120 feet to 200 feet 1 
 
 Answer. 'Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. How much of your uuexpended appropriation have you 
 now, to relieve Choctaw Pass ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 819 
 
 Answer. Less than $25,000; about $23,000. 
 
 Question. Will $23,000 open Choctaw Pass to 13 feet and relieve it of 
 this filling which comes in with the freshet? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. How wide will Choctaw Pass be ? 
 
 Answer. Two hundred feet. 
 
 Question. So, with your unexpended appropriation of this year and 
 your $145,000 of next year you will have both Choctaw Pass and Dog 
 Eiver Bar open to 200 feet ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Hamilton. 
 
 Question. The State expended some money on this same work, did it 
 not"? 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Do you know how much ? 
 Answer. I do not. 
 Question. Was it not $200,000 ? 
 Answer. I have no idea. 
 Mr. Williams. It was $200,000. 
 
 Examination of Hon. Abraham Murdoch:, president of \the Mobile 
 and Ohio Eailroad, upon the subject of internal water-communications 
 and railroad-communications of Mobile: 
 
 Mr. Murdock : Mr. Chairman, the subject assigned to me was par- 
 ticularly the water-communication with the city and the railroad-com- 
 munications with the city. There has been for the last twenty or twenty- 
 five years a project on foot with the people of the interior to connect 
 the waters of the Tennessee with the waters of the Tombigbee, the Tom- 
 bigbee being one of the rivers flowing into this city. Thei Tombigbee 
 Eiver is navigable ordinarily about four months in the year, and that 
 in the winter season; generally commencing about the middle of De- 
 cember, and running on for four months, after which time it ceases alto- 
 •gether to be navigable. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. To what point is it navigable during that time ? 
 
 Answer. As high up as Aberdeen, a distance of about five hundred 
 and twenty-five miles from water. The Tombigbee, as well as the War- 
 rior and a portion of the Alabama, runs through the finest cotton-belt 
 on the American continent. It is true we have some railroads now 
 penetrating that belt, but still river-communication is extremely desir- 
 able. The river bottoms are of immense fertility, and to a very large 
 exteut have been and still are in cultivation, and the people residing 
 along the line of these great rivers need a communication other than 
 railroads ; that is to say, it is too far East and West for them to get to 
 the railroads. There has been a recent survey made by order of the 
 Government, a copy of which probably will be furnished to your com- 
 mittee. A more elaborate report and memorial to Congress on this sub- 
 ject will be sent from some of the interior boards of trade. Those, when 
 they reach you, will probably give more detailed information than lean 
 furnish you. The presumption is, however, that by the cutting of a canal 
 from eight to twelve miles, the waters of the Tennessee can be turned 
 into the waters of the Tombigbee, and tidewater reached thereby at all 
 seasons. This would directly benefit a portion of North Carolina, a 
 portion of Virginia, and a large portion of Tennessee, Alabama, and Mis- 
 sissippi. 
 
820 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. What sort of country is that through which your canal 
 would have to be cut 1 Is it level ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; there is a chain of hills running through there, but 
 it is said that, without a circuitous route, a gap can be found. I am 
 not conversant enough with the locality to tell you precisely where, but 
 those who have made preliminary surveys assure me that, not to exceed 
 twelve, and somewhere from eight to twelve miles will do. The Ten- 
 nessee Eiver is higher than the Tombigbee River, sufficiently so, they 
 all agree, to make a very pretty fall, and ample for the purposes needed. 
 This would be tapping the Tennessee River below the famous Muscle 
 Shoals, which you are aware make a perfect barrier to navigation above 
 it, and would unquestionably give navigation all the way to tide-water 
 the whole twelve months in the year. 
 
 I need hardly call your attention to the importance of our rivers 
 being kept open the entire year, because we are never obstructed by 
 ice. If we can have water we can navigate the whole year round. The 
 importance of reaching tide-water is very great to those who are pur- 
 suing the cultivation of cotton, which is the main product along the 
 banks of these rivers, from the fact that it is a commodity so bulky 
 that it is difficult to get to market. If they have to haul it a great dis- 
 tance it becomes a tax too onerous to be borne. 
 
 But I suppose it is admitted by all the members of the board here, 
 and by all the boards of the interior, that the most important thing we 
 can expect to obtain from Congress is this great ship-canal across the 
 capes of Florida. I take it for granted that it is understood perfectly 
 that, at no very distant day, the entire commerce of the West Indies 
 and South America with the great empire of the west has got to be 
 done through gulf ports. New Orleans, Mobile, and Pensacola are 
 those three great gulf ports, as we all know. The reason that this 
 commerce will pass through them in the future is from the fact that it 
 is shorter and consequently quicker and cheaper. In anticipation of 
 that fact the internal channels of trade have all been constructed. 
 From this city you have first the Mobile and Ohio Railroad, which 
 starts at Mobile and runs virtually to Cairo, passing through seven 
 degrees of latitude, through the entire cotton-belt aud into the grain 
 region of the West, and then, branching off to Saint Louis, it forms an 
 unbroken rail connection with the Pacific Ocean. Saint Louis is reached 
 from the gulf ports after you have this West India and South American 
 produce at five hundred miles less haul than from New York City ; and 
 when I say Mobile, New Orleans will come in under the same heading, 
 for it is about the same thing. Chicago is reached at about a hundred 
 and twenty-five miles less haul; Cincinnati will be reached by two 
 hundred and seventy-five miles less* haul. To-day both Mobile aud 
 New Orleans, through her great trunk lines of railroads, are in unbroken 
 railroad communication with all the great cities of the West. I could 
 have shown yon yesterday coffee directly imported from Rio, going to 
 Cincinnati, which had never touched ground in this country at all ; 
 landed alongside of the wharf and taken right on to the cars. With 
 Cincinnati, Saint Louis, Louisville, and all the cities of the West, the 
 gulf cities of Mobile and New Orleans both have this unbroken rail 
 communication. 
 
 The only thing that interferes is the want of communication with the 
 outside world. We are supposing that the improvements which Con- 
 gress has already taken hold of in relation to our harbor will benefit us 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 821 
 
 very largely to that extent, and when I speak of benefit to us, 1 speak 
 of benefit to the entire West, for I am supposing that there is no har- 
 bor improvement on the American continent in which so many States 
 are directly interested as in the harbors of Mobile and New Orleans. 
 
 Again, when we talk about western produce and its shipment in- 
 tended for the West Indies, we have now a rail-communication, and if 
 we can improve our water-communication we can settle the question of 
 cheap freights so far as the West is concerned. Our railroads pene- 
 trate on the east the coal and iron regions. The Mobile and Montgom- 
 ery connecting with the South and North road at Montgomery, runs di- 
 rectly through the coal and iron fields. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. If you are familiar with the extent of that coal-field, de- 
 scribe it if you please.* 
 
 Answer. It is almost boundless, and having been engaged a little in 
 the iron business, I desire to make a single remark in relation to Ala- 
 bama iron. The remarkable thing in relation to the coal and iron fields 
 of Alabama is what is not found perhaps in the civilized world — that 
 the iron and the coal and the lime, which is the flux, as everybody knows, 
 is all found so that you may almost throw a stone from one to the 
 other. When you take up the question of Alabama iron, therefore, you 
 have just such a question as long and short staple cotton. The great 
 bulk of the iron ores of Alabama are the brown hematite, not so rich 
 in yield as the Missouri ores, particularly from the Iron Mountains, and 
 some others, but of such a fine quality that they command a much 
 higher price. For instance, at the present moment Alabama pig-iron will 
 probably bring $50 at Saint Louis, while Iron Mountain pig-iron would 
 not bring over $40. In other words, they must have a portion of this 
 fine iron to mix with their common ores in order to produce a large por- 
 tion of their articles. 
 
 It becomes then, as I remarked, just such a question as long and short 
 staple cotton for all the world. It has been shown by experience that 
 iron can be produced in Alabama at a less price than in Wales. The 
 English who are now located on the line agree to it. But to go back to 
 the other routes by which they are reached. I said first the Mobile and 
 Montgomery, connecting at Montgomery, runs through the coal region. 
 The Mobile and Ohio, at Meridian, in Mississippi, unites with the Ala- 
 bama and Chattanooga, and that runs the entire length of the coal and 
 iron region. In addition to that, there is now in process of construction 
 what is called the Alabama Grand Trunk Boad, that starts from Mobile, 
 and is now completed about sixty miles, and runs by a still shorter line 
 into this same region. There can be no question,, even to-day, but what 
 the internal railroad facilities are sufficient to bring all the iron and 
 coal, not only for the steamers, but for foreign export, and I call foreign 
 everything out of the State for the present purpose. Coal and iron 
 both, and particularly the latter, will be exported in large quantities 
 from these Gulf ports to the eastern ports, as well as to the European 
 ports. I believe that is now pretty thoroughly admitted by all the iron- 
 masters. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Do any of these streams, the Ooosa, the Tombigbee, or the 
 Warrior Eiver, head in the coal fields I 
 
 Answer. The Warrior runs through them ; the Alabama and lom- 
 bigbee do not run through them. 
 
 Question. How about the Coosa "2 
 
822 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Answer. The Ooosa does; and there have been suggestions made fre- 
 quently, and talked of largely, of connecting the waters of the Coosa 
 and- the Alabama River. 
 
 Question. From the coal fields of Alabama, by way of the Ooosa, or 
 Warrior Eiver, what obstructions are there to water-communication 
 
 here % 
 
 Answer. I am not sufficiently cognizant to give you those points. 
 
 Question. I would like a description of the mode of conveying, both 
 by rail and water, this coal and iron to Mobile Bay 1 
 
 Answer. The Alabama and Chattanooga, or the South and Korth 
 Eoad, both empty here, and they pass directly through them. In 
 going along the line of railroad you are running through coal and iron 
 almost the whole distance. It crops out and shows itself to you. The 
 turning of the Coosa into the Alabama Eiver would probably affect that 
 matter, and I suspect that there are gentlemen'here who understand 
 the local geography who can give you an explanation of that matter. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Does not the Coosa empty into the Alabama? / 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir. 
 
 Question. How far is it from Cairo to this point by your railroad ? 
 
 Answer. Four hundred and ninety-six miles. 
 
 Question. How far is it from here to Chattanooga by way of your 
 road, and the Alabama and Chattanooga Eailroad f 
 
 Answer. Four hundred and thirty-five miles. 
 
 Question. How many miles from here to Atlanta % 
 
 Answer. Three hundred and sixty-four miles. 
 
 Question. From here to Vicksburgh by the way of the Vicksburgh, Me- 
 ridian and your road 1 
 
 Answer. Two hundred and seventy five miles. 
 
 Question. What are the charges on fourth-class freights, or the low- 
 est class freight on your railroads ? 
 
 Answer. That depends altogether upon which direction you take the 
 freight. 
 
 Question. Both ways, if you please ? 
 
 Answer. I suppose the average rate, or about the average rate of 
 south-bound freight would be about 3£ cents a ton from Cairo here. 
 
 Question. What class of freights do"you mean by that $ 
 
 Answer. Our classification is perhaps a little different from others. 
 For instance, corn is make special sometimes. 
 
 Question. What is it for corn, wheat, flour, &c. ? 
 
 Answer. I suppose about 2% cents per ton per mile. 
 
 Question. Do you know what it is on the other roads leading from 
 Chattanooga down ? 
 
 Answer. There would be very little difference in the rates all through 
 our country. The uniformity of all our southern roads is the want of 
 equalization of tonnage. Of every three cars leaving Mobile, two of 
 them go empty. The consequence is, that has to be levied on the down 
 freight. If the harbor was opened, and in communication with the out- 
 side world, that would all be remedied at once. 
 
 Question. You have given us now the charges on the south-bound 
 freight, what are the charges north-bound ? ■ . 
 
 Answer. I suppose not over 1J cents per ton per mile. 
 
 Question. On specials, such as wheat, corn, flour, &c, it is about 2* 
 cents ? 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir ; about that. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 823 
 
 Question. On all fourth-class freights, such as coal, ores, &c, what 
 is it I 
 
 Answer. We do not bring ores south ; coal we do. We have been 
 getting coal from Pittsburgh pretty largely. 
 
 Question. What would be fourth-class freight coming southward-? 
 
 Answer. On coal, about If. 
 
 Question. Where does your coal come from that you bring over your 
 road now ? 
 
 Answer. It has been coming exclusively from Pittsburgh down the' 
 Ohio and striking us at Cairo, or Columbus, Kentucky. 
 
 Question. Do you prorate with the river from the point where you 
 strike it to the place of production of the coal ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; it is brought in barges. 
 
 Question. And that is the terminus of the barge line ? . 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; we take the coal from there. 
 
 Question. They charge actually about a cent and a half, I understand 
 you? 
 
 Answer. Not over that, but we do not take it at all seasons of the 
 year at that. We force them to give it to us in the summer season, 
 ' when there is nothing else to do ; in the winter time we charge more. 
 
 Question. Why is it that coal cannot be brought much cheaper from 
 the neighborhood of Birmingham, by way of the Alabama and Chatta- 
 nooga road and your road, than from Pittsburgh 1 
 
 Answer. It can, unquestionably, except that nobody has started into 
 the business. Birmingham is about the center of the coal and iron 
 region. 
 
 Question. Is there any difference in the quality of the Birmingham 
 coal and the Pittsburgh coal that makes one more desirable than the 
 other ? 
 
 Answer. There is a great variety of coal in the neighborhood of 
 Birmingham of greater or less value. For grate purposes there is a 
 portion of the coal that we regard as superior to the Pittsburgh coal ; 
 another portion for furnace purposes is also so regarded, while there 
 are others which are considerably below the standard of Pittsburgh coal. 
 
 Question. Have you stated whether your larger proportion of coal 
 used here comes from Alabama mines 1 
 
 Answer. Heretofore it has come almost exclusively from the Pitts- 
 burgh mines, owing to the,<fact of the non-development of the other. 
 
 Question. Have these roads been 1 long developed, up into the heart of 
 the coal region. 
 
 Answer. No, sir. One road has been completed about two years, and 
 it has had certain complications surrounding it. 
 
 Question. How long have the South aud North Eoad, and Mobile and 
 Montgomery connection been formed 1 
 
 Answer. Some twelve or eighteen months, perhaps. It is about 
 twelve months, I think, since they got into the city. 
 
 Question. What is the average price of coal here ? 
 
 Answer. Coal here is very high, I suppose it costs, on an average, 
 nine to ten dollars a ton. ' 
 
 Question. What sort of coal is that 1 
 
 Answer A large portion of it is bituminous, and occasionally some 
 anthracite is brought here very cheap from Europe, coming in ballast. 
 
 By the Chairmam : 
 Question In this city anthracite is quoted at retail, I observe, at " $11 ; 
 Pittsburgh, $11; Alabama, $11; Virginia cannel, $15 ; English caniiel, 
 
824 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 none in the market." That is from the Merchants' Exchange price-cur- 
 rent of this city. Did you say you did not know anything about the 
 obstructions in the Coosa 1 
 
 Answer. I do not know anything about that. 
 
 Question. Nor the other rivers ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. The Tombigbee is the only one I know anything 
 
 about. . ' 
 
 Question. What are the passenger rates from Cairo here I 
 
 Answer. Pretty generally local passenger-rates are 5 cents a mile. 
 
 Question. Are there any fast-freight lines operating in this section of 
 the country ? 
 
 Answer. Not in this immediate section. 
 
 Question. None on your road ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. Nor on the other roads centering here ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. How do roads connecting here manage their through busi- 
 ness : for instance, running from Birmingham to your road, and then to 
 Mobile; how would the business be conducted ? 
 
 Answer. Their cars would come over our road, and it would be sim- 
 ply an account of mileage. 
 
 Question. In making up this mileage-account, as between yourselves, 
 how do you estimate the use of a car over your road 1 
 
 Answer. At a cent and a half a mile. 
 
 Question. How do your local freights over your road between here 
 and Cairo compare with the through freights ? 
 
 Answer. On our immediate line our local is the heaviest. We run 
 through a very fine country. That is not true of all the roads running 
 out of this city. Our local is higher than our through rate. 
 
 Question. About how much higher generally 1 ? 
 
 Answer. The through rate is a very varying rate. We sometimes 
 get it above the local, but as a general thing it is below the local. 
 
 Question. About what percentage? 
 
 Answer. I should suppose from 35 to 33J per cent. 
 
 Question. Where do you get the iron used on this road ? 
 
 Answer. We import it generally from Europe. We can ordinarily get 
 the freight of iron pretty cheap to the cotton ports. 
 
 Question. Have you ever m'ade any comparisons in your connection 
 with railroads as to the relative cheapness or actual cos£ of water and 
 rail transportation 1 
 
 Answer. I suppose the absolute cost is less by water than it can pos- 
 sibly be made by rail, but I have long had a theory that rail-transpor- 
 tation could be very materially decreased by introducing a slow-schedule 
 system. I believe that freight carried at a speed of not more than five 
 hiiles per hour could be reduced very much indeed, and as much money 
 could be made to the company. 
 
 Question. You think five miles would be the maximum of profit then 
 for speed? 
 
 Answer. I think if you will put your speed down to about five miles 
 an hour more money could be made than at any other rate. 
 Question. What is the grade of your road ? 
 
 Answer. The highest is 40 feet going north and 33 coming south. 
 Question. What is your north-bound freight here usually ? 
 
 Answer. We are getting to have some lumber, and naval stores are 
 beginning to spring up somewhat. That interest of course was all de- 
 stroyed during the war. It is beginning to spring up again, and we are 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 825 
 
 getting some little business in the way of foreign goods. The coffee 
 trade is springing up and has been pretty large for the last two or three 
 years. 
 
 Question. What are your chief articles of transportation southward ? 
 
 Answer. The leading article of all is cotton. 
 
 Question. Coming southward? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; coming from the interior points. 
 
 Question. Do you not bring a considerable quantity of grain from 
 the West f 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; a large amount of grain. 
 
 Question. Do you find any difficulty in the storage of grain here on 
 account of the climate ? 
 
 Answer. Not at all. 
 
 Question. Dow do you store it for distribution here ? 
 
 Answer. It is stored here in what is equivalent to cotton-sheds, if you 
 are aware what they are. They are tight on the outside and opening 
 into a court. 
 
 Question. Do you bring grain in bulk or in bags ? 
 
 Answer. We have brought very little until this season, when we have 
 begun to bring some in bulk. 
 
 Question. When you bring it in bulk do you store it in bins in that 
 way? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; they generally sack it upon its arrival. 
 
 Question. When it is stored it is stored in sacks ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Have you ever shipped any corn from here abroad ? 
 
 Answer. I am not aware that there has ever been any corn shipped 
 from here abroad. Some gentlemen now tell me that there has been 
 some small shipments to Cuba. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. What does it cost to get it from the cars to the boat ; what 
 is the usual charge ? 
 
 Answer. Nothing, with us„ sir. 
 
 Question. It must cost something. 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; we have a track that runs right down to our own 
 wharf. We discharge without a particle of cost, drayage or wharfage. 
 
 Question. It has to be handled ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; but the same slings that handle from one convey- 
 ance put it into the other. 
 
 Question. That costs something. 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; but no more than it would to uuload it ordinarily. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Question. That is covered by the freight? 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 Question. You pay that ? 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Question. What is your usual railroad gauge? _ 
 
 Answer. Five feet. That is almost entirely universal in the South. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. What is your competing line for your northern freight? 
 Fou have competition, I suppose? 
 ' Answer. Yes, sir; the Mobile and Montgomery connect with the 
 
826 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 South and North at Montgomery. The Mobile and Ohio run virtually 
 in the same direction. The Mobile and Ohio being my own road, they 
 make a competing point with us at Louisville. 
 
 Question. Those are owned by entirely different interests, and are in 
 competition ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. ■ 
 
 Question. Do you agree upon prices between yourselves tor the trans- 
 portation of north and south commodities ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. Are you not in competition with the river-lines 1 
 
 Answer. All the time. 
 
 Question. Which do you find the most active and difficult com- 
 petitor ! 
 
 Answer. The river-line is the hardest thing to fight. The Mississippi 
 is the hardest thing to fight that was ever struck yet, I reckon. 
 
 Question. Do you know the distance from Cairo to this point by the 
 way of the Mississippi Eiver ? 
 
 Answer. I do not believe I can give it to you. 
 
 Question. Is there any considerable amount of northwestern produce 
 brought down the river here ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; a large amount. 
 
 Question. You find tbat a much more active and dangerous competi- 
 tor than the other route ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; in good weather, when the river is up ; but when 
 we catch them with low water, or an ice gorge, we turn the tables on 
 them. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. (To Mr. Murdoch:.) Corn is now 90 and 95 cents a bushel 
 here. It can be brought down the Mississippi River from Saint Louis 
 for 15 cents a bushel, and evidently across this short road cheaply. 
 Why is it so much higher here than the apparent cost of transportation 
 would seem to indicate ? 
 
 Answer. I suspect when it is examined it is not found to be so much 
 higher. When you put on all the freight and side charges, you will find 
 the margin is rather a small one, 
 
 Examination of Hon. Peter Hamilton. 
 
 Mr. Hamilton. Mr. Chairman, the inquiry upon which I supposed I 
 might be able to give some reply related to obstructions in the Warrior 
 River. There has been placed in my hands what I understand to be an 
 accurate list of all the obstructions which exist in that river between 
 the town of Demopolis, which is at the mouth of the river, where the 
 Warrior and Bigby unite, to Tuscaloosa. It seems to be an accurate 
 list, numbering altogether sixty-nine, and mentioning even one log. 
 Tuscaloosa is the head of navigation, that is in the heart, or very near 
 what is known as the Tuscaloosa coal-fields. The list reads as follows : 
 
 List of obstructions in Warrior River, from Tuscaloosa to Demopolis, given by Bud Bartee. 
 
 1. G-unshoot, (twenty-five miles below Tuscaloosa.) — Little work on east side river ; 
 dredging and cutting logs will make it good, year round. 
 
 2. Little-Log Shoals. — Some logs to cut out, and dredging; one dozen hands four 
 days. 
 
 3. Tupelo Bur.— Needs dredging and log cut out below mouth Little Sandy, and 
 change channel on east side straight down river. 
 
 4. Cunningham's. — One tree to be removed. 
 
 5. Little Bar, (Collier Foster's.)— One log to be cut out. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 827 
 
 6. Ball Bar.— Logs and poles moved ; little dredging; four days, dozen men. 
 
 7. Big Sandy.— Several logs; two or three days' work. 
 
 8. McCowau's Bluff.— Three logs, little dredging at mouth of creek to miss a rock ; 
 four days' work. 
 
 9. Buzzard Bar.— Logs and Sunkin Plat in chute ; two weeks' work ; half a mile 
 long. 
 
 10. Below Burton's Landing. — One log to be moved. 
 
 11. Above Williford's.— Lilly's wreck to be moved, and one log. 
 
 12. Izard's Skoals. — Stopping channel on west side could have good water. 
 
 13. Burroughs' s Rock.— Two rocks to be blasted, good channel and four feet water 
 year round. 
 
 14. Nike's Bar. — One log to be taken out. 
 
 15. Battle's Gin. — Two logs ; bar below, two logs. 
 
 16. Cut-off. — Two logs in bar above cut-off; foot of cut-off two weeks' work ; bushes, 
 small and large trees. 
 
 17. White's Bar. — Four or five trees to be moved. 
 
 18. Cleveland Shoals. — Six logs to be moved ; one week's work. 
 
 19. Bolianan's. — Logs all round bend ; two days' work. 
 
 20. Alligator Bar. — One day's work upper, four days' work lower part. 
 
 21. Wilson's Bluff. — Pour days' work removing logs— ten or twelve. 
 
 22. Parham's Gin. — Dredge under point to avoid rocks in bend ; two days. 
 
 23. Little bar below. — Two days' dredging. 
 
 24. Mary's Wreck. — Eight or ten logs to be moved. 
 
 25. Bock Island. — Dredged at head of point; one or two days' work. s 
 2G. Wild Man's Island. — Two logs. 
 
 27. Bar belmv Collins's. — Head of chute dredged, channel to east side, plenty of water, 
 six logs to Log Shoals. 
 
 28. Jones's Field. — Four logs to be moved. 
 
 29. Logan's Bluff. — One log to be moved. 
 
 30. Log Shoals. —By opening channel west side, good water year round. 
 
 31. Hickman's Bar. — Remove obstructions on point, cut channel 60 yards, good water 
 year round ; five or six logs to be moved down to Z. Logan's landing. 
 
 32. Meriweather's Landing. — One log. 
 
 33. Meriweather's Bar. — Dam and turn channel west side ; two weeks' work. 
 
 34. Lumber's Bar. — Four logs ; two days. 
 
 35. Minter's Creek. — Two logs; one day. 
 
 36. Finch's Ferry. — Wreck of flat-boat. 
 
 37. Big Creek. — Logs ; one day. 
 
 38. Standing Cypress. — One log, and six logs thence to Eutaw Landing. 
 
 39. Juming's Ferry. — Four or five logs. 
 
 40. Pickens's Bar. — Two logs to Choctaw Bluff. 
 
 41. Choctaw Bluff. — Three logs will put chute across river and better. 
 
 42. Stephens's Bluff. — Dredging and four or five logs put channel on east side. 
 
 43. Duck Bar. — Big log. 
 
 44. East Port, (reach above.)— Four or five logs. 
 
 45. McAlpen's Ferry. — Timbers out east side ; channel in old place. 
 
 46. Moore's Landing. — One log; thence toDolapich three or four logs, and Erie Island 
 four or five logs. 
 
 47. Erie Island.— Four or five days' cutting logs; Bar Split Dip three or four logs. 
 
 48. Bar beloiv Erie. — Two days' work ; thence Buckman's three or four logs. 
 ' 49. Buckman's Island.— Light dredging 50 yards. 
 
 50. Limestone Creek— Ten or twelve logs above. 
 
 51. Below Limestone Creek.— Sis. logs. 
 
 52. Myers's Bluff.— Two logs. 
 
 53. Jlolcroft's.— Two logs. 
 
 54. Q. E. Clements's.—Tvfo or three logs thence to Lake Bond. 
 
 55. Mclntyre's Shoals.— Six days' dredging and cutting logs. 
 
 56. Prairie Creek StoaU.—Ten days' work moving logs; thence to Areola nlteen 
 
 °57. Yellow Creek Shoals— Three or four logs ; to Devil's Bridge thirty or forty logs and 
 some dredging ; at Taylor & Tatom's three or four logs. 
 
 58. From Tatom's to Wright's.— Four trees. 
 
 59. Wright's to Glover's Ferry— Eight trees. ' 
 
 60. Glover's to Demopolis.—Ten trees. 
 
 Respectfully submitted. ^ g ^^^ 
 
 Tuscaloosa, August 8, 1873. 
 
 This list was obtained last summer with a view of bavnig a survey- 
 made of that river, in order to its being opened to permanent naviga- 
 
828 # TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 tion for purposes of the coal trade. A committee was appointed by the 
 board of trade last summer to make some inquiry, and, upon inquiry, 
 they obtained this information. As I say, there are seventy or eighty 
 obstructions mentioned, even down to a single log that is embedded in 
 the stream. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Do you know anything about the navigation of the Coosa 
 Eiver? 
 
 Answer. Only in the most general way. 
 
 Question. Have there ever been any surveys by your State or by the 
 General Government of those rivers ? 
 
 Answer. With regard to that I will state that almost the last thing I 
 did before leaving Montgomery, on public matters, was in relation to a 
 company which has been formed to open the navigation of the Coosa 
 Eiver from Wetumpka to Eome, Ga. At the last session of the legis- 
 lature a memorial was sent to Congress in relation to the Coosa Eiver. 
 There is a company formed in Alabama under a charter that was ob- 
 tained a number of years ago. They have formed themselves into a 
 company for the purpose of opening the Warrior Eiver in the neighbor- 
 hood of Tuscaloosa, some distance above and some distance below, by 
 means of slack- water. They propose to construct a slack-water navr- 
 gation, so that they can load barges with coal from the bank of the 
 river and have them towed down to the Gulf and to Mobile. At the 
 head of that company, or connected. with it, are some Ohio capitalists, 
 with whom I was in communication last summer. As I understand, the 
 coal-fields which they own lie seven and a half miles to the west of the 
 bank of the river, and about eight or ten miles north, or above the 
 town of Tuscaloosa. Tuscaloosa is at the head of navigation upon the 
 river. That navigation, as already stated, lasts only from four to six 
 months in the year. As I understand, the Tuscaloosa coal possesses 
 some advantages over all other coals found in Alabama, and it is sup- 
 posed to be for some purposes more valuable than any Wales coal, even 
 for steam-navigation, I think. This company is formed with a view of 
 opening those mines, and bringing that coal to market. They require, 
 as they informed me, to construct a short distance of railroad from these 
 mines to the river; then, to insure the constant and easy transportation 
 of the coal from that point to tide-water, they need the construction of 
 a slack-water navigation for some distance on that river. 
 
 In addition to that, there is another company which has formed, with 
 a view of connecting that country by a cross-railroad with the North 
 and South Eoad, Birmingham, in order to bring the coal down by rail 
 to Mobile. But in my judgment, as has been suggested, transportation 
 by water is vastly more valuable than any artificial communication that 
 can be formed by rail. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. What is the distance from Tuscaloosa to Mobile ? 
 
 Answer. I cannot tell. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. It is between four hundred and fifty and five hundred 
 miles, by river. 
 
 The Witness. These rivers, the Coosa, the Warrior, and a little 
 stream emptying into the Alabama, all pass through exceedingly rich 
 mineral deposits in this State, one known as the Cahawha coal -fields, 
 the other the Tuscaloosa, and the other the Coosa. These streams pass 
 directly through nearly the center of each of those large coal-fields, 
 and very close to the fields are found these iron-mines. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 829 
 
 By Mr. Sherman: 
 
 Question. The Pittsburgh coal that you consume here floats down the 
 Ohio Eiver a thousand miles before it gets to Cairo ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. Allow me to state one difficulty that we labor 
 under in this State, and I think it is an explanation of a large amount 
 of our difficulties, and to the apparent want of enterprise in this State. 
 It is very certain that these large enterprises can never be carried on 
 without large capital, and it is very certain that the best mode of using 
 capital for this purpose is by means of associations or corporations. It 
 so happens that, by the constitution of this State, it is impossible to 
 make a corporation free of individual liability. I think that that lies at 
 the very root of the backwardness in which we find ourselves with regard 
 to these enterprises. It is, in my judgment, an exceedingly unwise pro- 
 vision of the constitution, but, nevertheless, it is a part of our funda- 
 mental rule. I merely make that remark as, in my judgment, a matter 
 which explains a great deal of our backwardness. 
 
 Examination of Hon. George N. Stewart. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Mr. Chairman, I am designated to address you upon 
 two subjects, the opening of the connection between the Coosa and the 
 Tennessee, and I confess as to that matter, I do not know much. I 
 have been recently attached to that committee and am not well informed 
 of details. I will merely remark that it is a part of the programme of Pro- 
 fessor Maury, in his water communications thatshould be opened. Steam- 
 boat navigation from here to the falls of the Coosa above Montgomery 
 is very good. There are fifty or sixty miles of shoals, and above that 
 two hundred miles of steamboat navigation again. There was a great 
 overflow in the Tennessee some years ago, and the water covered Chat- 
 tanooga. If it had risen 20 feet more, that would have poured the 
 water of the Tennessee into the Coosa. The only question about open- 
 ing that navigation is this : Is there water located high enough to feed 
 the canals to make a profitable connection 1 We have received boats 
 here from West Virginia. They came down the Tennessee, and they 
 were hauled across a short portage into the waters of the Coosa, and 
 came down here in high water ; but there have been surveys of the 
 Coosa which are published and which you can be furnished with. 
 
 On the subject of coal and iron, I have been appointed chairman of 
 the committee on mines and minerals, and I have given that subject 
 some attention. The wealth of Alabama in coal and iron is beyond 
 calculation. We can supply iron and coal to the whole world. It has 
 been entirely unknown for many years, although known to be. I live in 
 Tuscaloosa, at the foot of the coal region, and I know what the quality 
 of the iron there is to some extent, but it was not known thoroughly 
 and the reason was there was no access to the coal region. Attention 
 has been drawn to it only since the railroads have pierced the coal 
 region, and persons have been able to see it. Accounts were given to 
 some northern gentlemen of the coal and iron, and they would not 
 believe a word of it until they came to see, and then they found that 
 the facts exceeded their expectations. . 
 
 I have taken the pains to examine the iron regions of other States. 
 I have been on Lake Superior where the iron-ore is got out, carried by 
 railroad to Lake Superior, to Grand Bay, and shipped to Pittsburgh. 
 At Pittsburgh, when 1 was there, it sold at $15 a ton. I have been to 
 the Iron Mountain of Missouri. The ore is carried to Carondelet at 
 Saint Louis, shipped on steamers, and carried to Pittsburgh, where it 
 
830 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 is mixed with the Pennsylvania iron. I do not know what the price is 
 now. 
 
 I was at Louisville on the opening of the South and North Eailroad 
 last fall. The quotation then was, at Cleveland, $13 a ton for the iron- 
 ore of Lake Superior. We have iron-ore and the best quality of iron 
 known. We have a better iron than the best Scotch pig, and it is the 
 highest iron in the market, rating at Saint Louis last fall $62 a ton. 
 We have the black-band iron, which is the best iron known. This iron- 
 vein is the same which is found in Pennsylvania and -New York, in the 
 Alleghany ridge, but it outcrops in Alabama. It is deep in the earth 
 in the Alleghanies farther north. We have what is called the Iron 
 Mountain, one hundred and odd miles long, which is full of iron, from 
 15 to 50 feet thick, and they say in some places 150 feet. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. What did you say your iron was worth in Saint Louis ? 
 
 Answer. In Louisville it was quoted at $63 a ton at that time; that 
 is, the Alabama pig-iron. It was the highest quotation in the market. 
 We never saw a pig of iron made here. It is all carried to Louisville, 
 or Pittsburgh, New York, or Philadelphia, by rail. I made a report 
 some time ago upon the subject, and I reported to this board that all 
 we had to do was to provide for transportation, and if we did so the 
 mineral resources of Alabama would take care of themselves; and that 
 is the fact. I have no other idea but that. It is attracting now the 
 attention of capitalists from England. They have come to examine. 
 They will not believe the reports until they are confirmed and recon- 
 firmed. 
 
 Birmingham is in a beautiful valley. It extends northeast and south- 
 west, and it has a valley-route from Chattanooga to Mobile. There is 
 not a hill or tunnel to cross from here to Chattanooga, and it goes 
 through the mineral region. On both sides you have coal and iron. At 
 Birmingham the basis is limestone. It has a level bed, and this ridge 
 or Eed Mountain, on the eastern boundary of the town, 500 feet high, is 
 in sight. About half way up you come across the iron-bed. All you 
 have to do is to blast it, throw it into the valley, and knock it to pieces. 
 As I told you, the iron-ore of Missouri and of Michigan sold in Pitts- 
 burgh at $15 a ton. It takes two tons of ore to make one of iron. We 
 get the ore here from fiftycents to a dollar and a half a ton. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 Question. Getting it out of the mine directly ? 
 Answer. You burst it off; you do not mine, you quarry it. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. What is the percentage of iron 1 
 
 Answer. Yield is about 50 per cent. 
 
 A Bystander. It will average from 60 to 65. 
 
 The Witness. Practically it yields 50 per cent. ; it contains more ; 
 the quality is superior, and the quantity is as much as you want. 
 
 Now, as to the transportation. I have known for a long time the 
 through route was the Grand Trunk Road from Mobile to the iron 
 region. That route is the direct route ; it is the valley route. It 
 has no grades of any consequence; the grades are trifling. That 
 route has been commenced and built from here to the Tombigbee 
 Eoad, about eighty miles. The distance would be about two hundred 
 and twenty-five miles to the coal and iron region. Furnaces are build- 
 ing there. They are increasing, but, as I mentioned to you, it is of late, 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 831 
 
 because there has been heretofore no connection. The North and South 
 Road was opened last year. From Birmingham north you cross the 
 mountain region ; but from Birmingham here, it is a valley region. 
 There is no grade equal to 30 feet on the mile from Birmingham here. 
 It is^a level route. That is the route by which the minerals and coal, 
 so far as railroads are concerned, must come. A company have bought 
 a large quantity of coal-land in Walker County, and they pointed out 
 ten miles square as the best coal region in the world. They propose to 
 open the navigation of the Black Warrior River. There are two ob- 
 structions at Tuscaloosa of 24 feet, and above that a fall of 50 feet. 
 They propose to put locks there to pass the boats. From Tuscaloosa 
 to Mobile the obstructions are merely sand-bars. There is only one 
 rock-obstruction on the Tombigbee, a hundred and twenty-five miles 
 above here, which is soft rock, and can be cut through easily. 
 
 The'coal we now get is from Pittsburgh. It goes down the Missis- 
 sippi River, and is gotten by the New Orleans Railroad. I paid the 
 other day $12 a ton for it ; but we were offered it at $6.50 through 
 Montgomery. However,, the Grand Trunk will bring it here much 
 lower. A gentleman said to me: If I can find a coal-market, we can 
 give you some millions of tons of coal a year, and can do it at $4.50. 
 We could give it at $4, but expect $4.50. That, however, has not been 
 done ; it lies there yet. The coal-formation of Alabama is in the center 
 of the State — of 'about eleven hundred square miles. The formation is 
 at the town of Birmingham, at the Iron Mountain — a ridge full of iron. 
 It is the apex of the convulsion which brought the coal to the surface. 
 On the eastern side it dips about 45°, so that you very soon come 
 to a depth, and possibly may come to water. On the western side the 
 dip is only 10°, so that you can get a supply for ages without going 
 deep. It is said that the Warrior coal is the best. Anthracite coal we 
 find in the northeastern portion of the country, and there is none else- 
 where; it is a small region, but it furnishes that. The Alleghany 
 Ridge brings the coal all along from New York, and dies out in 
 Northern and Middle Alabama. There are two coal-regions which run 
 through the Alleghany Mountains. The upper strata is, I suppose, 
 400 or 500 feet above the lower strata. The upper strata expires before 
 it reaches us. We have the lower strata, which crops out when it comes 
 at the dying-out of the Alleghany Mountains in Alabama. We have 
 the same continuous vein as they have at Pittsburgh. At Pittsburgh 
 they excavate deep to find that vein. Here we have it cropping out 
 at the surface, but it is exactly the same. It is the same coal— some- 
 times an inch thick, sometimes 5 or 10 feet. The thickest veins are 
 not the best ; the medium are the best. In the thick veins they do not 
 use all. I was offered at Birmingham to put coal on the cars at 
 $1.50 a ton. I was authorized to make such a contract when it could 
 be found. That is, on the North and South Road. Those roads cannot 
 supply us with coal here. The route is circuitous. From the Mont- 
 gomery here, there is too big a rise to go over, and that prevents the 
 coal from going to Pensacola, and it cannot compete with Mobile. 
 Mobile is the outlet on account of the grades, and in coal the grade is 
 
 We now "want Me finishing of the Grand Trunk Road, because that 
 is the road so far as railroads are concerned, to bring the coal and iron 
 here. The' opening of the Warrior would be the desideratum, because 
 it could be carried cheaper, and it is perfectly practicable. There can 
 be a slack-water navigation made on it. Its source is 1,000 feet above 
 tide-water. When you travel from here, you have a level country until 
 
832 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 you get at the Tuscaloosa region, and there you find the falls of -the 
 river. Coal cau be had in many places immediately on the railroad. 
 They are getting it out now. 
 
 Now there is another trouble ; Mr. Montgomery said he was expend- 
 ing a large amount of capital, and expected to open slack- water naviga- 
 tion. Can we find a market in Mobile for coal 1 I say the market de- 
 pends on the supply, and the supply on the market. Beyond a doubt 
 we have the best harbor on the Gulf of Mexico, and that time will 
 prove. Now, if you can supply coal here in large quantities ships will 
 come here and get it in large quantities. We must make the appliances 
 so that it can be shipped easily. This will be a great coal- market for 
 the southern coal. It is the nearest coal to the sea, and Mobile is the 
 nearest point to the coal region, and you will find that the valley route, 
 formed by the rivers which flow here, gives a route where we have not 
 the grades, and the transportation by rail will be the cheapest. 'If you 
 attempt to go from the valley in which Birmingham is situated to Sa- 
 vannah or Charleston you have to cross over the ridge between the 
 rivers. You cannot carry coal that way. We want two things ; we 
 want the supply of coal here to give the market, and we want the 
 market to give the supply of coal. The facility of transportation is the 
 great thing. The Grand Trunk Eoad must be completed. It is a road 
 in the hands of gentlemen here who have started it to the extent of 
 their means, but the difficulty is that it has been prevented from being 
 completed. That is the route so far as rail-construction is concerned ;. 
 but then the opening of our rivers of course will give us further access 
 to this coal region. We want to make this harbor the great depot for 
 coal on the Gulf of Mexico, and to supply the whole Gulf. The Gulf of 
 Mexico is a sea of short navigation, and that kind of navigation must 
 always be by steam. Long voyages would make it different, but for 
 short voyages steam is necessary. It is evident that this must be the 
 coal depot. It is the nearest, and we have the supply. 
 
 Now as to Mobile Harbor. We may not be able to impress you with 
 the ideas we have, but we tell you it is the great harbor of the Gulf. 
 There is water enough for vessels of the largest class to ship six thou- 
 sand' bales of cotton on. There is a diffioutty now, because the vessel 
 cannot come to the wharf, but that is not a real difficulty. You can 
 load a ship a great deal cheaper in the bay than you can at the wharf 
 in New Orleans. It costs a couple of thousand dollars less to load or 
 unload a ship here than it does in New Orleans. Mobile Bay is perfectly 
 safe. There never has been a vessel lost there by storms ; the anchorage 
 is perfectly safe — it is land-locked ; but the great reason is, that the 
 hurricanes do not strike Mobile Bay. 
 
 By Mr. West: 
 
 Question. You say that you can load a ship cheaper in Mobile Bay 
 than you can in New Orleans? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. A steamship? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; any kind of a ship, I do not care what. Now as 
 to the difference in the price of freight. Freight is cheaper, perhaps, 
 from New Orleans than Mobile Bay; but what is the reason ? In New 
 Orleans they put lead in the bottom of the ship, and beef on top, and 
 cotton on top, and the ship carries more tons of freight. When we 
 have western produee to ship here, the freight will be cheaper here than 
 there. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 833 
 
 Question. Can you load a steamship by lighter in Mobile Bay cheaper 
 than a steamship can be loaded at the wharf in New Orleans? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. For what reason? 
 
 Answer. When we built the Mobile and Ohio Eailroad we sent for 
 the most accomplished engineer in the United States, telling our agents 
 not to mind the price, but to get the ablest engineer they could find. 
 That was Mr. Ohilds, of Massachusetts. When he left us he said, "I 
 leave you, but I want to make a prediction to you; the day will come 
 when the freight of New Orleans will all be shipped in Mobile Bay." 
 He says: "I admit engineering can accomplish almost anything, but 
 there is one trouble that New Orleans has beside the mouth of the 
 Mississippi. It has a hundred miles of heavy current up the river, 
 requiring an extensive steam-power to tow all ships, and that nothing 
 can overcome. You, with a railroad which is upon a dead level from 
 New Orleans into Mobile Bay, can carry a bale of cotton for so much 
 less that you will beat New Orleans. One train can carry a ship-load." 
 
 Question. Then your engineers prophecy, as I understand, was that, 
 in consequence of a sailing-ship being compelled to be towed to New 
 Orleans, Mobile would absorb the commerce of New Orleans ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Did he make any prediction upon the fact that we might 
 have steamships that would go up the river without towage. 
 
 Answer. They are very expensive. The current is there all the same. 
 Now Mr. Brewer and myself went to the western country to propose an 
 opening between the Mississippi and Mobile Bay. We were received with 
 great favor at St. Louis, Cincinnati, Louisville, and otherplaces. They 
 wanted a harbor on the Gulf and thought that Mobile Bay was the 
 point. Now New Orleans was of course opposed to opening the Ma'n- 
 shack, but we had a right to have it opened. Now they propose the 
 opening of the caual at Saint Philip. One thing perhaps you will find 
 when you get to New Orleans, that the improvements at the mouth of 
 the Balize cannot be effectual, because there is a singular thing which 
 nobody can account for. A ship will anchor at 16 or 18 feet of water, 
 and -iii two weeks there will be 12 feet of water there. And why is 
 that 1 The earth rises from below and makes a mouud. You break 
 into that and you will find dry dust. 
 
 Now I will give an example of the cost of the towage. The ship Begent 
 went to get a cargo. She did not get it and came here. We had the ac- 
 count to collect. It was $2,990 towage up and down, and it was a 1,200- 
 ton ship. The opening of the canal Saint Philip does not meet the 
 favor of the engineers, because they see the difficulties. It will fill with 
 mud • a bar will form at the mouth of it as at the Balize, and if you let 
 the water run through it will make a bar at the mouth of it so that 
 there is a difficulty there which will not work. 
 
 Question. You say the engineers have reported against the Fort Saint 
 
 Philip canal? T , . ,, , 
 
 Answer. They do not favor the plan much, so far as I can learn. But 
 anyhow, it will not get clear of the towage. I do not expect to convince 
 you of that fact, but I can see it, and that the predictions will come true 
 in point of time. The fact that Mobile is safe from hurricanes will make 
 it the great point of shipment. Then we add to that the supply of coal 
 which must be here. . 
 
 Now we want an improvement in the bay to put the coal into the 
 ships and we want an act of Congress to authorize us to build a pier 
 there and to construct a railroad into the bay. We expect by and by 
 53 TS 
 
834 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 to supply the wants of the Gulf with coal. And I say that whenever 
 we get our means of communication completed, the opening of the rivers 
 and the completion of the Grand Trunk Eoad, that the mines and the 
 coal will take care of themselves. You can raise cotton everywhere, 
 but you cannot get coal and iron everywhere, and you are obliged to go 
 to their location, where they exist. 
 
 There is a company of miners, principally Welshmen, who have 
 come to Tuscaloosa to open a coal-mine near there. That is at the fall 
 of the Warrior and foot of the coal region. The mineral region expires 
 there. If you dig under Tuscaloosa you will find coal. This company 
 has come there to mine coal and send it to Mobile. They are Welsh- 
 men, accustomed to the business, but the disturbances of money-matters 
 have caused them to cease at present. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. You spoke of the iron-ore. Is there a railroad now to that ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir, two roads to it; one by the Mobile and Ohio and 
 the Chattanooga, going through Birmingham, and the other by Mont- 
 gomery and the North and South. 
 
 Question. How many miles 1 
 
 Answer. Two hundred and twenty-five miles, I should think, from 
 here. 
 
 Question. How far is it from that to the nearest point on the Ohio 
 River, by rail 'I 
 
 Answer. I cannot tell you that, but there is a tremendous grade of 
 90 feet to the mile in Tennessee. 
 
 Mr. Murdoch:. It is about three hundred and fifty miles from Bir- 
 miiigliiitn. 
 
 Mr. Davis. What is the freight per ton per mile from Birmingham to 
 Louisville? 
 
 The Witness. I do not know. 
 
 Question. What is the price per ton for mining coal in that neigbor- 
 hood ? 
 
 Answer. I suppose it costs about half a dollar a ton to mine it. A 
 man makes about six or seven tons a day. 
 
 Question. I suppose there is a rate per ton for mining, is there not? 
 
 Answer. I was told that it cost about a half a dollar a ton. At 
 Birmingham I was authorized to contract, by a gentleman there, to put 
 coal on the cars on the road at a dollar and a half a ton. 
 
 Question. What are the thicknesses of the veins now being worked? 
 
 Answer. There are various veins and different thicknesses. I sup- 
 pose they are generally about two or three, or from 3 to 5 feet, and may 
 be feet. Generally, I would say about 3 feet; but the coal region is 
 very little known. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. What kind of labor is employed there ; negroes or white? 
 Answer. Generally white. 
 Question. Miners from abroad ? 
 Answer. I think so, generally. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 • Question. (To Mr. Murdock.) Can you give us the thickness of these 
 coal-veins ? 
 
 Auswer. I only know of one that is 8 feet. I am not much conver- 
 sant with them. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 835 
 
 Question. Can you tell us how many veins there are above water- 
 level and their thickness ? 
 Answer. No, Kir ; I cannot. 
 A bystander. I think five or seven layers have been explored. 
 
 Examination of Francis B. Clark, president of the Grand Trunk 
 Railroad Company. 
 
 Mr. Clark. Mr. Chairman, the subject which wasspecially referred to 
 me was in relation to the coal and iron question. Mr. Stewart has gone 
 over so much of the ground that there is very little left for me to say. 
 The particular idea was to call attention to the value and advantages of 
 Mobile as a coaling depot for the Gulf, and I have merely collated a 
 little information with regard to the lines of communication between 
 the coal regions and the Gulf. The coal-fields of Alabama measure, 
 according to Professor Forney, fifty-five hundred square miles. They 
 are accessible now, firsts by the Mobile and Montgomery and the South 
 and North Alabama railroads, from the Cahawba coal-field, a distance of 
 two hundred and sixty-five miles from the mine to Mobile, and by the 
 same route to Pensacola, it is two hundred and forty-five miles, over a 
 grade of 65 feet to the mile to Mobile and Pensacola, the Cahawba coal- . 
 fields by the only line of communication now existing. On this grade 
 the capacity of a twenty-seven-ton engine would reach a load of a 
 hundred and forty-seven tons of coal; say fifteen cars. 
 
 The second connection would be by the Alabama and Chattanooga, 
 and the Mobile and Ohio roads from the Warrior fields, a distance 
 to Mobile of two hundred and thirty-five miles, encountering a grade 
 of 66 feet to the mile, equal to fourteen car-loads of coal, with an engine 
 of the same weight. The third would be by the Warrior Eiver when 
 slack-water, now contemplated, shall be accomplished. There are diffi- 
 culties in the way of that slack-water navigation which have not been 
 mentioned, and that is, that by the storms which prevail sometimes 
 during the winter the river will rise 50 feet in twenty-four hours. The 
 rise and fall, is very.rapid, and that would interfere during certain sea- 
 sons of the year with that kind of navigation. The fourth connection 
 is one that is not yet completed. It is by the Grand Trunk Eoad. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 . Question. State the miles by your slack-water navigation. 
 
 Answer. It would be, of course, the length of the river, which I think 
 is about five hundred miles. The fourth mode of communication would 
 be by the Grand Trunk Eoad, which is now completed fifty-nine miles 
 in the direction of the Cahawba coalfields. By this road these fields 
 will be reached at a distance from Mobile of a hundred and ninety miles. 
 They strike the coal-fields at the south outcropping-point, nearest the 
 Gulf and make the most direct and short line. They reach the coal- 
 mine's at a grade of only 29 feet to the mile. With that road completed, 
 that coal can be brought to Mobile in any quantity at the minimum cost ; 
 that is inside of five dollars a ton, including the cost of mining and 
 placino- on the cars. And, as Mr. Stewart said, it can be loaded on the 
 cars from the mines alongside of the road and above them without 
 cost of handling, and can be dumped from the cars into the hold of a 
 vessel in the same manner. , . . . , xl , , 
 
 Question. When you speak of grade, it is against the coal I 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; 29 feet. . 
 
 Question. When you speak of a twenty-seven ton engine, do you mean 
 an engine filled with coal and water, or an engine alone. 
 
!836 TEANSPOETATION TO THE SEABOAED. 
 
 Answer. It is merely a unit of measure. That would be for a 
 light engine. Engines as high as thirty-five and forty tons are used, 
 but they are too heavy for profitable use upon southern railroads. 
 
 I have here a report of the State geologist of Alabama, made to the 
 Grand Trunk Eailroad Company, in which he touches upon some mat- 
 ters which are of interest perhaps to your committee. He says, " In a 
 distance of thirty-five miles south of Birmingham, your railroad along 
 its course is nowhere distant from iron and coal more than two miles, 
 and runs for more than half the distance literally through coal and iron 
 deposits, and having at different points near its course abundance of 
 limestone and fire clay, being the other elements necessary for building 
 furnaces and smelting iron." He also says, " The development of this 
 district is proceeding at a rapid rate; three blast-furnaces and a rol- 
 ling-mill are in operation, and six companies, one English, have made 
 extensive purchases in iron and coal lands within two or three 
 miles of your road, with the intention of immediate working. 
 Capitalists in the iron and coal business are daily exploring this 
 section, and their testinjony is united and emphatic as to the immense 
 value of these mineral deposits. Mr. Evans, an English gentleman, 
 representing a company from the Cleveland iron district in England, 
 whom I met during my survey, informed me he had visited all the coal 
 districts in the United States, Canada, Nova Scotia, Engla'nd, and 
 Wales, but there was nothing to compare with these mineral deposits. 
 He invested largely in the immediate proximity of your road, and in- 
 formed me that they intended immediately to work them." He also 
 says: "Six distinct seams of coal have been already discovered, all of 
 which I have examined, ranging in thickuess at the outcrop from 3 
 to 6 feet 6 inches. The coal is seen in the banks of the Caliawba Eiver, 
 and also the creeks and branches, and wherever a well has been dug 
 the coal makes its appearance. It is a bright, bituminous coal, lying 
 at an angle of from twenty-five to thirty five degrees." He further 
 says: "A glance at the coast-line of the United States, and also of the 
 geological map of the North American continent, will at once show that 
 the Cahawba coal-fields are the nearest to all the South Atlantic ports 
 of the United States, especially to the Gulf of Mexico, the West Indies, 
 &c, through Mobile, the southern terminus. If your railroad, as I 
 bave stated, is shorter by fifty miles to the seaboard, it can have no 
 equal competitor in carrying coal to the Gulf." 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. ^To Mr. Murdock.) Since I have left Bichmond I notice 
 that you burn wood instead of coal, which we use exclusively. Please 
 state the reasons why, and the relative expense of each. 
 
 Answer. So far as most roads in this country are concerned, wood is 
 cbeaper than coal. Take, for instance, the Mobile and Ohio and the 
 Mobile and Montgomery roads, and there is no coal along the line. If 
 the Alabama coal-fields were developed, and some of the roads running 
 up into coal-fields in the north of the State could bring us coal, then 
 we could strike the coals up above, and also at Florence. We might 
 make a coal depot to run the whole length of the line, but at the pres- 
 ent time there is not a pound of coal on the whole length of our line, 
 while, on the contrary, wood is very plenty with us. 
 
 Question. What is the usual price per cord by the side of your road! 
 
 Answer. From one dollar and seventy-five cents to three dollars and 
 twenty-five cents. In Tennessee and Keutucky wood is expensive to 
 us. In Alabama and a portion of Mississippi wood is very cheap. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 837 
 
 Question. Do you keep a record of the cost of running: an engine pet 
 mile? & v 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir. 
 
 Question. Do you know the difference between the cost of coal and 
 wood ? 
 
 Answer. Not having used coal, I am not prepared to say. 
 The committee here adjourned. 
 
 New Orleans, La., December 27, 1873. 
 Committee met pursuant to adjournment. 
 
 Report of the copimiitee of the Chamber of Commerce of Xcw Orleans to the Senate Transpor- 
 tation Committee, 1873. 
 
 To the Hon. W. Wisdom, 
 
 Chairman Comptittee of United States Senate on Transportation ; 
 
 The undersigned committee of the Chamber of Commerce of New Orleans, charged 
 ■with the duty of laying before your honorable committee the commercial needs of this 
 port, and furnishing the necessary data for Congress to determine whether the money 
 of the Government would be well bestowed in making the improvements desired, beg 
 leave to submit the following report : 
 
 In reviewing the circular of questions addressed to us in connection with the Missis- 
 sippi route, this committee find some to have been sufficiently answered by the report 
 of the Saint Louis committee, and, to avoid needless repetition, they adopt the same, 
 hereto appended and marked A, so far as it is applicable to the interrogatories specially 
 propounded to the New Orleans Chamber of Commerce. 
 
 The chief impediment to the development of our commerce has always been the bars 
 at the mouths of the Mississippi River. 
 
 The United States Government has for years endeavored to remove this by dredging. 
 
 The experiments have been of great value, but the relief afforded has been tempo- 
 rary and inadequate to the wants of commerce, and insignificant when considered in 
 the light of the vast interests involved. 
 
 Our chamber, after many years of patient investigation, aided by the best engineer- 
 ing skill at our command, are fully convinced that the Fort Saint Philip Canal will 
 afford economical and permanent relief. 
 
 For full particulars of this enterprise, they refer to and make part of this report 
 pamphlet marked B, entitled " Address to Chambers of Commerce, Boards of Trade, 
 and to Congress, as to Fort Saint Philip Canal," and the official report of Major Howell, 
 now in the hands of the proper Department at Washington, also appended hereto, 
 marked C. 
 
 ALLEGED-CLIMATIC DISADVANTAGES OF THE MISSISSIPPI ROUTE FOR CEREALS. 
 
 After all difficulties arising from shoal water over the bars are removed, your com- 
 mittee has been informed that serious climatic difficulties are alleged to exist. The 
 frequent repetition of this charge in quarters where there was little interest or oppor- 
 tunity to make denial, has given it a seriousness wholly undeserved. We emphatically 
 deny the fact, and assert that no evidence has been adduced to entitle it to serious 
 consideration. Nevertheless, we have been at pains to meet the charge as if made upon 
 full information. . 
 
 As prefatory to facts and statistics, we beg to call your attention to the fact that 
 Indian corn the product which is most extensively produced in the Mississippi Valley, 
 and stands most in need of a free passage to sea, is grown in all latitudes on this con- 
 ' tinent and to a greater extent in the extreme South than m the extreme North; that 
 it is kept on southern plantations, both that raised here and that imported, from one 
 fall to another, just as it is on northern aud western farms without damage If, as is 
 not denied corn can be and is kept without damage from climate in this latitude when 
 at rest, why is it subjected to climatic risks when placed on shipboard at New Orleans 
 and cleared for European ports ? 
 
 That corn is ruined by transportation over fresh-water streams is not contended. 
 The temperature of the Mississippi waters flowing below the mouth of the Ohio is 
 lower than that of the atmosphere in the same latitude, There can, consequently, be 
 nothing damaging in the thermal state of the Mississippi current. , 
 
838 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Not only do the cotton and sugar planters from Memphis to the Balize * n J°°™.f?°™ 
 in the West, but the city of New Orleans purchases, for use here and in th e vie mity, 
 4,000,000 bushels western corn annually. According to the census ot 18/ u, me corn 
 produced that year in the following States was — 
 
 Bushels. 
 
 Bashels. 
 
 Tennessee -* 41,343,614 
 
 Mississippi 15, 637, 311 
 
 Louisiana 7,891,628 
 
 Total 433,816,863 
 
 Missouri - 66,034,075 
 
 Arkansas 13, 382, 145 
 
 Illinois 120,921,305 
 
 Indiana 51, 004, 535 
 
 Ohio 67,501,144 
 
 Kentucky 50,101,106 
 
 To these might he added the production of States between the same parallels of lat- 
 itude, and the corn product of Texas, from which it will be seen that within the 
 parallels included between Saint Louis and Key West, Fla., there is annually grown 
 about seven hundred millions of Indian corn. 
 
 Conceding its delivery at New Orleans in good order, what more has a shipment of 
 corn to apprehend ? It must double the capes of Florida, and go by the ocean to Eu- 
 rope, pursuing the same route over which western produce finds its way to the Eastern 
 States. It traverses the same seas as western produce shipped from the eastern cities 
 does, in reaching Cuba and all points south of it. 
 
 In addition to the facts furnished you at St. Louis, we append and make part of this 
 report Exhibit C giving character of obstructions at the mouth of the Mississippi, the 
 tonnage of ships now engaged in the trade, and costs and charges, with comparisons with 
 other cities. To show how grain shipment from New Orleans, for the five years from 
 1868-9 to 1872-3, inclusive, we append Exhibit D. 
 
 In connection with that part of Exhibit D which shows that the expense of shipping 
 bulk-grain by sea is lessened by an increase in the size of ships, we append Exhibit E, 
 showing the depth of the channel at the mouth of the Mississippi from July 1, 1871, 
 to July 1, 1873 ; also statement of grounded vessels, draught, time of detention, and 
 cause. 
 
 To show number of steamships arriving and departing from New Orleans from April 
 1, 1873, to November 10, 1873, we append Exhibit F, and also a statement of the col- 
 lector of the port, showing the entrances and clearances from 1870 to 1873, inclusive, 
 marked Exhibit G. 
 
 To show our scant railroad facilities and the absence of prejudide in our community 
 among railroads to increased water facilities, we append Exhibit H, prepared by J. T. 
 Tucker, agent of the Illinois Central Railroad. 
 Exhibit I, appended, shows the extent of our interest in the tobacco trade. 
 Exhibit J, flour trade. 
 
 Exhibit K shows the amount of sail and steam tonnage, foreign and American, plying 
 to and from the port of New Orleans since 1864 to this date. 
 
 Exhibit L gives all details of the detention for fortyrthree days on the bar, its effect on 
 the cargo, cost of getting off, and damage to ship Memphis. 
 
 Exhibit M is a brief summary by Major Howell, the engineer in charge of the work 
 at the mouth of the river, of the chaTacter of the difficulties to be overcome, the tem- 
 porary nature of dredging, the permanent character of the canal, its probable cost, fea- 
 sibility, and economy. 
 
 Exhibit N gives the actual expenses from Saint Louis to New Orleans, of one thou- 
 sand two hundred and fifty miles, of towboat Future City, 1,500 tons capacity. 
 
 Exhibit O gives estimate of expenses of steamer John F. Tolle, 1,650 tons burden, 
 costing $65,000, between Saint Louis and New Orleans. 
 
 In conclusion, your committee respectfully submit that the vast interests of so large 
 a part of the population of the United States, residing on the banks of the Mississippi 
 River and its tributaries, makes the work at the mouth of the river a peculiarly national 
 work. In the absence of constitutional objections, your committee have confined their 
 investigations to showing the magnitude of the interests involved, the inadequacy of 
 the present outlet to sea, the feasibility, economy, and permanency of the Fort Saint 
 Philip Canal, and its probable effect, when built, upon the commercial and agricultural 
 ■welfare of the whole valley. 
 
 JOHN H. KENNARD. 
 A. K. MILLER. 
 L. J. HIGBY. 
 CHAS. E. SLAYBACK. 
 J. T. BURDEAU. 
 DAVID HADDEN. 
 R. S. HOWARD. 
 J. T. TUCKER. 
 WM. G. COYLE. 
 WM. M. BURWELL. 
 SILAS WEEKS. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 839 
 
 Exhibit A. 
 [Extract from the Saint Louis Report.] 
 
 IMPORTANCE OF THE FOET ST. PHILIP CANAL. 
 
 It is urged by those opposed to the Mississippi River and Gulf route, that there is 
 no need for the construction of the Port St. Philip Canal, the depth of water on the bar 
 being sufficient for the class of vessels needed for the commerce of New Orleans. We 
 protest against this idea upon the ground that New Orleans is a seaport, and al 1 seaports 
 should have such a depth of water guaranteed to them as will admit of the approach 
 of any of the commercial vessels of the world. Railways require to be of uniform 
 gauge to be useful, and seaports should have channels of approach of something near 
 a uniform depth. This requires a depth of not less than twenty-eight feet, and no 
 system of dredging can assure that depth upon the bar at the mouths of the Missis- 
 sippi during all seasons of the year. Therefore the Government should construct the 
 Fort St. Philip Canal; and it is the opinion of your committee that by use of the im- 
 proved methods for excavation, this canal may be built at a cost not exceeding 
 $6,000,000, and if performed by contract — let to the lo,west responsible bidder — it may 
 not cost that sum. 
 
 CORN STATEMENT. 
 
 We beg leave to present the following list of cargoes of corn that have been exported 
 via the Gulf to England during the present season, every one of which has arrived 
 sound, and has sold for the top figures of the market : 
 
 Name of vessel. 
 
 Cargo. 
 
 1873. 
 
 February 11 
 
 February 13 
 
 March3 ; 
 
 March 31 
 
 April 3.. 
 
 April 8 
 
 April 11 
 
 April 23 
 
 April 23 
 
 May9 
 
 May 17 
 
 June 6 
 
 June 19 
 
 June 30 
 
 Jaly2 
 
 August 8 
 
 August 26 
 
 Steamship Cheviot ... 
 Steamship Louisiana 
 Steamship Mississippi 
 Steamship St. Louis - 
 Brig George GilchriBt 
 Brig Royal Haven. . . 
 Steamship Minnesota 
 Steamship Memphis . . 
 
 Brig Pekin 
 
 Steamship Alabama . . 
 Steamship Louisiana 
 Steamship St. Louis.. 
 Ste-uinship Mississippi 
 Steamship Concordia 
 Steamship Minnesota . 
 SteamBhip Oberon — 
 Steamship St. Louis . . 
 
 Bush. 
 15. 00O 
 
 19, 00 
 12, 000 
 26, 000 
 15. 0(>0 
 
 20, 000 
 18,000 
 50, 000 
 
 24, 000 
 89,000 
 
 25, 000 
 16,000 
 19, liOO 
 19. 000 
 35, 00*0 
 
 26, 000 
 22, 000 
 
 Accounts of sales of each of the above cargoes have been received by mail, with the 
 exception of the last one, and the condition of the corn on arrival at its destination, 
 has been just as good as any that has been shipped from New York, or from any other 
 point of the world to Liverpool. 
 
 The steamer Memphis lay on the bar and in the river forty-three days, and returned 
 to New Orleans and discharged cargo, repaired, and retook cargo, which arrived in good 
 condition. . ■ , 
 
 Q 6 What are the rates of insurance on gram by the river and Cult route I 
 
 A' Respecting the rate of insurance on grain by the river and-Gulf route, we would 
 -state that from Saint Louis to New Orleans the rate by boat and barges is 1 per cent. 
 From Saint Louis to Liverpool, via the Gulf, it is 3f. From Saint Louis to New York, 
 via the Gulf it is 2f. In reference to these rates, let us observe that the rate trom this city 
 to New Orleans is much too high when applied to barge transportation, and would he 
 reduced to i per cent., provided the obstructions were removed. The charge of 3£ now 
 levied upon goods shipped from this port to Liverpool, via the Gulf, is also- much too 
 hieh and one of the reasons for so large a rate is the extra hazard of crossing the bar 
 at the mouth of -the Mississippi River. If the Government will construct the Fort St. 
 Philip Canal below New Orleans, this rate will be very materially reduced, and added 
 to the reduction in insurance will be a reduction in the rate ot freight from New Or- 
 leans to Liverpool, induced by the cheapening of port expenses, which the construc- 
 tion of the Fort St. Philip Canal, or some similar improvement, will bring about. 
 
840 
 
 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 O 7 What is the number of tons of freight transported each year from Saint Louis 
 to New Orleans, and from New Orleans to Saint Louis » . . 
 
 A The number of tons transported to New Orleans from this city, by river m 1871, 
 wts 295 708 The number in 1872 was 322,831 ; showing a notable increase, when the 
 fict that 187° was a dry year is considered. It will be remembered that a period of 
 forty-nine days of suspended navigation occurred in 1872, from ice and low water. The 
 number of tons of freight transported by river from New Orleans to Saint Louis, in 
 1871, was 150,000, and 200,000 in 1872. 
 
 THE YEARLY SAVING TO BE EFFECTED. 
 
 Let us call the attention of your honorable committee to the following facts. The 
 annexed table exhibits some of the leading articles produced in States bordering upon 
 the navigable rivers of the Mississippi Valley : 
 
 State. 
 
 Wheat. 
 
 Corn. 
 
 Oats. 
 
 Rye and 
 barley. 
 
 
 
 30, 128, 405 
 27, 747, 222 
 29, 435, 692 
 3,391,198 
 18, 866, 073 
 14, 315, 926 
 27,882,159 
 25, 606, 444 
 
 129, 921, 395 
 51,094,538 
 68, 935, 065 
 
 . 17,025,525 
 4,743,117 
 
 66, 034, 075 
 
 67, 501, 144 
 15, 033 998 
 
 42, 780, 851 
 8, 590, 409 
 21,005,142 
 4, 097, 925 
 10, 678, 261 
 16, 578, 313 
 25, 347, 549 
 20, 180, 016 
 
 4,936,978 
 
 
 do 
 
 813,730 
 
 
 do.--. 
 
 do 
 
 do.... 
 
 2, 556, 586 
 
 183, 612 
 
 1, 110, 112 
 
 
 do 
 
 823, 781 
 2, 562, HI 
 
 
 
 2, 970, 313 
 
 
 177, 373, 119 
 
 420, 288, 527 
 
 149, 208, 536 
 
 15, 947, 223 
 
 
 
 Grand total : 762,817,405 bushels. 
 
 At least one-third of this grain is moved from the point of production to the Eastern 
 States, over expensive artificial routes, losing to the producer 10 cents per bushel, and 
 to the consumer 10 cents per bushel, which might be saved by transportation down the 
 natural water-paths of the valley and around the sea-coast. The sea-board ports re- 
 ceived in 1873 a trifle over 100,000,000 bushels of grain and 8,000,000 barrels of flour. 
 Here is 140,000,000 bushels of grain represented altogether. This grain paid a freight 
 of 20 cents per bushel more than need be paid, provided the Government will properly 
 improve the navigable waters of the Mississippi Basin, making $28,000,000, which might 
 have been saved— $14,000,000 to the consumer, and $14,000,000 to the producer. This 
 saving, it is estimated, can be made upon the 140,000,000 bushels of breadstuffs which 
 proceed eastward over the costly and artificial routes now employed, and no estimate 
 is made on the live stock, provisions, hay, dairy products, fruits, &c, which the East- 
 ern States annually draw from this valley ; nor upon the tobacco, cotton, &c, which 
 arc annually shipped from here eastward, to be thence exported, instead of proceeding 
 to New Orleans and taking ship there. 
 
 Exhibit C. 
 
 OBSTRUCTIONS AT THE MOUTH OF MISSISSIPPI — TONNAGE OF SHIPS — COSTS AND 
 CHARGES— COMPARISON WITH OTHER CITIES. 
 
 The natural obstruction to all rivers are the bars which are formed by the junction 
 of a lesser body of water with a larger, by which heavy particles of sand and gravel 
 are deposited, which the current in its natural unconfined state will not carry to sea. 
 
 In all rivers running into salt water, the bars are more formidable than those made 
 by emptying into fresh water. 
 
 The natural mouth of the Mississippi River is eighty miles wide, and has three prin- 
 cipal channels. These are Southwest Pass, Pass & i'Outre, and Northwest Pass. Of 
 these Pass.a I'Outre and Southwest Pass have the deepest water over their bars. 
 
 Prom the point where Pass & I'Outre forks to the southeast, to the Gulf, it is fifteen 
 miles, and Southwest Pass is seventeen miles. The natural depth of water over each 
 bar is 14 feet for a distance of 2,900 feet. From where there is 20 feet of water on the 
 inside of Pass a I'Outre to 20 feet outside is 8,700 feet ; for the same at Southwest Pass 
 it is 14,500 feet or nearly three miles. 
 
 At the forks the water is 30 feet deep, and from there to the bars it is sixty feet. The 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 841 
 
 •river tit the forks is one and a quarter mile wide — and thirty miles from one pass to 
 the other outside. 
 
 The bars move, seaward one foot each day by cutting off from the river-side, and de- 
 positing the same on the seaward side. By this law of nature, the bars go to seaward 
 over one hundred yards each year. 
 
 If it were possible to build piers that would confine the channel, a continual exten- 
 sion would be necessary each year, for all time to make it available. 
 
 Many eminent engineers have been sent by this Government to deepen the water 
 over the passes. But until the plan of the Essayons was put in operation, there was 
 no improvement made, and all the work and appropriation lost up to 1869. 
 
 Since that time the Essayons and McAllister by continual and constant work have 
 made from 17 to 20 fert of water, and ships drawing from 18 to 19 feet pass, with few 
 exceptions, without detention. For ships to be most profitable to share-owners to cross 
 the ocean they should carry twenty-five hundred or t.hree thousand tons dead weight, 
 and to do so as now constructed would draw 23 to 25 feet of water. Consequently 
 none of these ships can carry over twenty to thirty thousand bushels of grain, and the 
 balance of space must be filled with cotton, so they will not draw over 18 feet. Thus 
 it will be seen these ships cannot take over three-fourths of their tonnage, and of course 
 the freight tax is much higher than it would be if the Government furnished the 
 Mississippi River with an outlet equal to the Hudson, of 27 feet. 
 
 With 27 feet of water, ships of four and five thousand tons would come for car- 
 goes, and could afford to transport for 20 per cent, less than small ships, as at present. 
 
 It is considered a fair equivalent for ships from here to charge one-quarter more price 
 than is paid in New York. Thus, if freights are 12 pence in New York, they should be 
 15 pence here. But for the past four months they have been about an eighth higher. 
 
 From the mouth of the Mississippi the water is from 60 to 150 feet deep for four hun- 
 dred miles up the river, from which point our Saint Louis friends have informed you 
 fully. The number of steamers which have passed in and out of this river for the 
 past year of 1672-73 is eight hundred and twenty-nine ; and sail-ships, for same time, 
 sixteen hundred and forty-nine. Of these ships none have had to anchor outside for 
 want of water to cross the bar, and but eight have had to lighter over the bar. These 
 were all out the channel but one. There was a blockade of ships at SouthweBt Pass in 
 May last, caused by a ship getting across the channel, which detained the steamer 
 Memphis on the bar twenty-seven days, during which time she broke her propeller- 
 wheel, and had to return on May 29, unloaded, to Bhip a new propeller, reloaded the 
 same cargo, 50,000 bushels of corn and 2,500 bales of cotton, and passed out June 15, 
 without detention. 
 
 This blockade caused $7,000,000 in produce and cotton to be locked up, which, with 
 the detention of ships, (some 75,) the direct damages could not have been lesB than 
 $700,000. This was caused in part by a want of authority in the Government engineer 
 in charge to control deep-laden ships in crossing at high tides and when the Govern- 
 ment steamers were not working in the channel. It is hoped by this committee that 
 all these obstructions to the world's commerce will be removed by the building of the 
 Fort Saint Philip Canal, which will give ships of the largest class easy and deep water 
 
 into the river. ,,,*,.. j Jt „ 
 
 Our friends at the North contended, before the war, that this river was needed by all 
 these States as a free highway tor all nations, and to supply this need we ask your co- 
 operation in obtaining an appropriation sufficient to meet the demands of the fourteen 
 States and five Territories tributary to this river. Their present production of cereals 
 per annum is 1,069,660,000 bushels; of this it is reasonable to calculate one-tenth for 
 exportation or 106,000,000 bushels, for which the farmers demand cheap transportation 
 to the ocean and the markets of the world. We find three water routes viz : by the 
 lake canal, and Saint Lawrence River to Montreal ; by lake, canal, and Hudson River to 
 New York and by the Misissippi River to New Orleans. The average freight from 
 Chicago for six months in the year, to Montreal, is 21 cents per bushel, charges there 
 are 4 ?ents to get on ship, and ocean freight is 10 to 20 cents, making 40 cents to Liver- 
 pool ; time in transit, fifty-three days. From Chicago, tor seven months in the year^ 
 25 cents to New York; charges to put on ship 4 cents, and ocean freight 10 pence or 20 
 cents makinLM9 cents to Liverpool; time in transit, fifty-eight days. From Sunt 
 Louis' vfa Cairo to New Orleans, all the year round i.s 10 cents, to put on ship 2 cents, 
 ocean frei-ht 12» pence, or 25 cents, making 37 cents to Liverpool ; time m transit, 
 thhtv davs If one-half of the above amount was exported by the Mississippi River, 
 the farmers' of these States and Territories would save annually $4,000,000, a sum suffi- 
 cient to t>av for all the improvemeut on this river in two years. 
 
 Grains of all kind heat most during their natural germinating season of April and 
 Mav It is during these days that grain spoils, when sultry hours occur, and there is 
 no lir to dry off the moistufe that comes to the surface. These are much more fre- 
 quent a? the North than here. Mr. Higby, the proprietor of the elevator, furnishes 
 the followin-r account sales of a lot of corn sliipped by him : 
 
842 
 
 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Account sales of 2,328 m gutters Indian corn *%j£*%l£: L x ^t%" ti aZouTof 
 Louis, {steamship,) at iVeu> Orleans, and sold oy John Stewart Uxley <f 00., « 
 
 whom it may concern, viz : 
 
 s. d. 
 
 Pavment cash in one month, less two months' interest, 1871. 
 
 July 28-100 quarters Reid & Glasgow, at 32s. 60. per 480 pounds ------- I 63 10 ° 
 
 July 28-2,224 m quarters Ross T. Smyth & Co., at 32s. 64 .per 480 g ^ ^ ^ 
 
 Ai^usTo-JS S£& E" Hutchinson, at 24«."per 480 pounds, (sweepings) 
 
 2,328 4^ quarters 
 
 Charges, marine insurance paid ha New Orleans— 
 
 Freight on 18.624J bushels, at 9d. per bushel, of 60 pounds 
 
 and 5 percent.... 7 ^ ° B 
 
 Pock and town dues and entry •»* < ■■ 
 
 Quay porterage, stowing, and watching M 7 4 
 
 Busheling, sacks, twine, and delivering 22 10 10 
 
 Fire insurance, £2 17s., interest on charges £10 16s. 2d 13 13 2 
 
 Bank commission, J per cent., £99s. Id.; brokerage, i per cent. 
 
 £18 18s.2d 28 7 3 
 
 Commission and guarantee, at 3-| per cent Ia2 7 .. 
 
 7 3 
 
 .3,781 10 5 
 
 995 
 
 Net proceeds due October 31, 1871 2,785 
 
 July 17.— To your draft of 24th June, at 60 days, due 18th 
 
 September 2,195 2 5 
 
 To interest on the same to 31st October 12 18 7 
 
 • 2, 208 
 
 19 
 11 
 
 1 
 
 10 
 
 Balance due 31st October, 1871 577 
 
 E " & °" K JOHN STEWART OXLEY & CO. 
 
 Liverpool, 12th August, 1871. 
 
 Mr. Highby says : " This cargo of mixed corn was shipped from here June 24, on 
 the steamer Saint Louis. The thermometer stood at 94 the day it went on board, and 
 it had as hot a passage through the Gulf as any cargo ever will have; yet when it 
 arrived, which was in twenty-four days from the time of sailing, it sold at 2s. 6d. over 
 the same grade from New York, as it was in better order." The consignees, John 
 Stewart Oxley & Co., say "the corn could not have been in better condition." 
 
 It was bought at the market rate, 67®68o. per bushel, F. O. B., and the lot cost 
 $13,454.08, with $255 net marine insurance ; leaving a profit of $1,447.60, as it sold for 
 $15,156.68. 
 
 Exhibit D. 
 Grain statistics of tlie port of New Orleans for the five years 1868-'69 to 1872-'73 inclusive. 
 
 RECEIPTS. 
 
 Years. 
 
 Corn. 
 
 Outs. 
 
 Wheat. 
 
 Rye. 
 
 Hay. 
 
 Bran. 
 
 
 Bushels. 
 3, 413, 460 
 3, 563, 762 
 4, 125, 932 
 5, 953, 556 
 5,338,227 
 
 Bushels. 
 1, 921, 475 
 3, 182, 710 
 2,463,610 
 3, 739, 295 
 2, 797, 565 
 
 Bushels. 
 
 302, B24 
 
 446, 639 
 
 13, 765 
 
 461 
 
 896 
 
 Bushels. 
 22, 504 
 27, 493 
 33, 685 
 38, 790 
 44, 240 
 
 Bales. 
 180, 030 
 247, 226 
 178. 693 
 179,391 
 165, 698 
 
 Sachs. 
 183,011 
 195, 245 
 180, 244 
 153, 281 
 195, 392 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 22, 394, 937 
 
 ,14, 104, 655 
 
 764, 005 
 
 166, 712 
 
 951, 047 
 
 907, 173 
 
 
 
 15, 409, 083 ■ 
 
 8, 143, 353 
 
 888, 435 
 
 175, 442 
 
 4, 431, 764 
 
 1, 242, 445 
 830,290.523 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 ESPORTS. 
 
 843 
 
 Years. 
 
 Corn. 
 
 Oats. 
 
 Wheat. 
 
 Eye. 
 
 Hay. 
 
 Bran. 
 
 1868-'69 
 
 1, 245, 931 
 652, 025 
 1, 935, 205 
 2, 540, 028 
 2, 886, 121 
 
 M 
 
 297,211 
 
 440, 495 
 
 2,910 
 
 33 
 
 (t) 
 
 (!) 
 
 «J 
 
 1869-70 
 
 1870-'71 
 
 
 1871-'72 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 9, 259, 310 
 
 740, 649 
 
 
 
 
 "Almost entirely consumed by the local and interior trade, 
 t Consumed principally by the local distilleries. 
 {Consumed by the local, coast, and interior trade. 
 
 Showing the ports to which corn and wheat were exported during the five years, 1868-69 to 
 
 1872-'73, inclusive. 
 CORN. 
 
 Tears. 
 
 
 New 
 York. 
 
 Boston. 
 
 Cuba. 
 
 Other for- 
 eign ports. 
 
 Other Uni- 
 ted States 
 porty. 
 
 Great 
 Britain. 
 
 ]868-'69 
 
 1, 245, 931 
 652, 025 
 
 1, 935, 205 
 2, 540, 028 
 
 2, 886, 121 
 
 288,163 
 85,723 
 45,172 
 21,833 
 66, 432 
 
 9,455 
 3,470 
 
 46, 551 
 124, 147 
 191, 194 
 
 35,982 
 286, 715 
 
 117, 405 
 28,180 
 
 781,870 
 29, 248 
 
 112, 826 
 
 458, 661 
 
 410,505 
 
 7,;8, 372 
 
 1, 750, 54(1 
 
 1, 795, 999 
 
 5, 124, 077 
 
 325, 69S 
 
 (*) 
 205, 597 
 682, 425 
 
 1869-70 
 
 1870-71 
 
 1871 '72 
 
 
 1872-73 
 
 
 
 
 
 Total 
 
 9, 259, 310 
 
 507, 323 
 
 12, 925 
 
 707, 589 
 
 1, 069, 529 
 
 1,837,867 
 
 
 *None. 
 WHEAT. 
 
 Tears. 
 
 
 New 
 York. 
 
 Great 
 Britain. 
 
 Other 
 foreign 
 ports. 
 
 Baltimore. 
 
 Other Uni- 
 ted States 
 ports. 
 
 Other 
 foreign 
 ports. 
 
 
 297,211 
 
 440, 495 
 
 2,910 
 
 33 
 
 114, 240 
 21, 092 
 
 137, 615 
 
 45, 356 
 
 
 
 
 
 2,155 
 
 400, 829 
 
 16,419 
 
 
 
 
 2,910 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 33 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 740, 649 
 
 135, 332 
 
 137,615 
 
 45, 356 
 
 2,155 
 
 400, 802 
 
 19,329 
 
 
 
 • Exhibit E. 
 
 Depth of channel at the mouth of the Mississippi River from July 1, 1871, to July 1, 1873;. 
 also statement of grounded vessels, draught, time of detention, and cause. 
 
 1871. 
 
 July 7 
 
 7 
 
 10 
 
 23 
 
 Nov. 14 
 
 19 
 
 Feet. Iti'i 
 
 18 9 
 
 18 9 
 
 17 6 
 
 Dec. 
 
 30 
 12 
 13 
 15 
 25 
 1872. 
 Jan'y 9 
 11 
 14 
 24 
 
 Depth of 
 channel, 
 extreme 
 low tide. 
 
 18 
 19 
 19 
 20 
 20 
 19 
 19 
 
 18 
 19 
 19 
 18 
 
 Name of vessels grounded. 
 
 Bark G. Godfrey 
 
 Bark Chas. Auguste . 
 
 Bar.k Sitka 
 
 Ship Gardner Colby . 
 
 Steamer St. Mary 
 
 ShipM. C. Day 
 
 Ship Maxwell 
 
 Bark Hernia 
 
 Ship Antartic 
 
 Steamer J. C. Harris . 
 
 Ship Canterbury 
 
 Steamer Bapidan 
 
 Bark R. Shilburnt 
 
 Steamer Victor 
 
 Steamer Statesman 
 
 Steamer City of Galveston - 
 
 Draught. 
 
 Feet In's 
 16 
 17 
 
 15 
 16 
 16 
 
 16 6 
 11 
 
 17 6 
 
 17 6 
 
 18 6 
 14 
 
 Time of 
 d e t e n- 
 tion. 
 
 00 
 25 
 
 10 
 
 "Y 
 
 16 
 37 
 
 120 
 
 12 
 
 Cause of grounding. 
 
 Ran out of channel. 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 
844 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Exhibit E. — Depth of channel at the mouth of the Mississippi Iiiver, <fc— Continued. 
 
 Date. 
 
 Depth of 
 channel, 
 extreme 
 low tide. 
 
 Name of vessels grounded. 
 
 Draught. 
 
 Time of 
 de ten 
 tion. 
 
 Cause of grounding. 
 
 1871. 
 
 Feb. 11 
 
 17 
 
 March 10 
 
 28 
 
 29 
 
 29 
 
 April 7 
 
 7 
 
 7 
 
 May 
 June 
 
 July 
 
 Aug 
 
 10 
 20 
 Sept 14 
 21 
 23 
 7 
 11 
 
 Oct. 
 Nov. 
 Dec. 
 
 Feb. 
 
 10 
 13 
 15 
 17 
 29 
 30 
 1873. 
 -Jan'y 2 
 3 
 16 
 24 
 13 
 22 
 26 
 March 8 
 10 
 12 
 12 
 12 
 15 
 15 
 15 
 16 
 18 
 
 as 
 
 91 
 23 
 23 
 S3 
 SS 
 27 
 27 
 27 
 29 
 89 
 30 
 30 
 3(1 
 30 
 31 
 8 
 16 
 18 
 15 
 16 
 85 
 26 
 
 May 
 
 Jane 
 
 Feet. 
 19 
 18 
 
 19 
 20 
 20 
 20 
 18 
 18 
 18 
 18 
 18 
 17 
 18 
 
 16 
 
 17 
 
 17 
 
 16 
 
 15 
 15 
 
 9 
 
 18 
 
 18 
 
 ie 
 
 18 
 18 
 18 
 19 
 19 
 19 
 19 
 20 
 19 
 19 
 18 
 18 
 18 
 17 
 17 
 17 
 17 
 17 
 17 
 17 
 17 
 
 17 
 17 
 17 
 17 
 17 
 18 
 
 16 6 
 
 15 
 
 
 17 
 
 
 17 
 
 
 17 
 
 fi 
 
 J7 
 
 6 
 
 17 
 
 6 
 
 Steamer St. Louis ... 
 Steamer Chrysolite .. 
 Steamer Koln ......'. 
 
 Ship Wyoming 
 
 Ship Ella S. Thayer . 
 
 Ship Hermine , 
 
 Ship C. H. Southard . 
 
 Mischief 
 
 M. Pollock 
 
 Bark 
 
 Feet In\ 
 18 
 
 18 
 "i7 _ ""6" 
 
 "ie" e" 
 
 Bark , 
 
 Ship N. Dormio 
 
 Ship Union , 
 
 Ship Thomas Harwood . 
 
 Bark M. Gelatalo 
 
 Bark. 
 
 18 
 18 
 17 
 
 17 
 
 Steamer Alice , 
 
 Ship Rochester , 
 
 Ship Charlotte 
 
 ShipM. Pollock 
 
 Ship Europa , 
 
 Brig- Mary M. Francis 
 
 Brig Duke of Wellington ... 
 
 BrigM. M. Francis 
 
 Bark Sarah A. Staples 
 
 Bark Waverly 
 
 Steamer St. Louis 
 
 Bark J. Harnett 
 
 Schooner George Peabody . . 
 
 Bark Maggie Chapman 
 
 Schooner Willis 
 
 Ship E. C. Scranton 
 
 Ship Leone 
 
 Ship Expounder 
 
 Steamer Gracia ! _ 
 
 Steamer, Louisiana 
 
 Ship Advance r 
 
 Ship Arabia , 
 
 14 
 
 19 
 19 
 
 Steamer Minnesota 20 
 
 Steamer Liberty 19 
 
 Ship Matanra ] 18 
 
 18 6 
 
 Steamer Annie Ainsley . 
 
 Bark Shakonjarl 
 
 Ship Research 
 
 Brig Guiseppe 
 
 Steamer New Orleans... 
 
 ©hip Dillhare , 
 
 Bark Niphon 
 
 Bark Augusta 
 
 Bark Runer 
 
 Steamer New Orleans .., 
 
 Steamer Misaissipp , 
 
 Ship Reunion , 
 
 Steamer "Vandalia 
 
 Steamer General Meade.. 
 
 Bark Annie Kimble 
 
 Steamer Legislator 
 
 Bark Royal Harry 
 
 Bark Evioia 
 
 Steamer Student .'. 
 
 Ship Sea Flower 
 
 Bark Roweua .. 
 
 Bark Australia 
 
 Steamer Missouri 
 
 Steamer Gen. Sedgwick . . 
 Steamer Juan G. Meigs . . 
 
 Bark Japan 
 
 Steamer Yazoo 
 
 Bark Unknown 
 
 Steamer Cortes 
 
 Bark Gasper 
 
 Schooner H. V. Turner .. 
 
 Schooner Geo. Howe 
 
 Steamer Alabama 
 
 Steamer Memphis , 
 
 Steamer Legislator L 
 
 Steamer Margaret I io 
 
 Steamer New Orleans 18 
 
 17 6 
 
 19 
 
 16 6 
 
 17 
 
 9 
 
 15 
 19 
 
 15 6 
 15 6 
 
 17 
 
 fi 
 
 J 5 
 
 6 
 
 14 
 
 9 
 
 18 
 
 R 
 
 15 
 
 
 13 
 
 
 18 
 
 18 6 
 
 Hours. 
 19 
 18 
 11 
 16 
 16 
 
 14 
 72 
 26 
 22 
 24 
 12 
 18 
 
 121 
 46 
 30 
 3 
 
 168 
 24 
 15 
 7 
 
 4 
 4 
 
 5 
 
 19 
 95 
 3 
 10 
 
 21 
 24 
 
 24 
 
 12 
 136 
 
 50 
 
 148 
 
 7 
 
 18 
 
 Ran out of channel. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 Attempted to cross at low tide. 
 Ran out of channel. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 
 Insufficiency of water. 
 Out of channel 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 Probably low tide. 
 Out of channel. 
 
 Out of channel. s 
 
 Do. 
 Probably low tide. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 Out of channel. 
 Probably low tide. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 Exhibit G. 
 
 845- 
 
 The following commercial statistics have been received from the office of the col- 
 lector of the port of New Orleans. 
 
 Number of entrances, steam-vesselB 
 
 Tonnage ,, 
 
 Number of clearances, steam- vessels ... 
 
 Tonnage 
 
 Number of entrances, sailing-vessels 
 
 Tonnage 
 
 Number of clearances, sailing-vessels ... 
 Tonnage 
 
 Total value of imports — 
 Specie, free and dutiable , 
 
 Total value of exports — 
 Domestic to foreign countries 
 
 Total value of exports- 
 Foreign to foreign countries 
 
 Grand total of exports 
 
 Amount of revenue collected on imports 
 
 1870 and 1871. 
 
 1871 and 1872. 
 
 1872 and 1873. 
 
 916 
 
 949, 230. 06 
 
 1,201 
 
 1,231,161.15 
 
 1,091 
 
 862, 824. 46 
 
 1,141 
 566, 415. 69 
 
 616 
 639, 943. e8 
 
 704 
 739, 850. 21 
 
 945 
 436, 650. 77 
 
 1,000 
 457, 996. 23 
 
 385 
 404, 427. 00 
 
 444 
 473, 965. 00 
 
 838 
 457, 836. 00- 
 
 811 
 517, 833. 00 
 
 $19, 331, 119 00 
 
 $18, 542, 188 00 
 
 $19, 933, 180 OO 
 
 93, 953, 081 00 
 
 89, 501, 149 00 
 
 104, 329, 965 00 
 
 1,293,710 00 
 95, 246, 791 00 
 5, 899, 390 85 
 
 1,301,700 00 
 90, 802, 849 00 
 5, 184, 053 93 
 
 285, 127 0O 
 
 104, 615, 092 00 
 
 3, 732, 550 78 
 
 The number of vessels has steadily decreased. The tonnage has decreased in a lesser 
 ratio. There is but unimportant though favorable change in imports. 
 
 There is a marked advance in exports not accounted for by increase in value of our 
 staple products for exports. 
 
 A greater export by nearly $10,000,000 was effected in 1372-73 than in 1870-71, and 
 with about one-half the number of vessels and one-half the tonnage. 
 
 DEDUCTIONS. 
 
 A larger class of steamships and sailing-vessels is being attracted to this porfc- 
 
 Exhibit H. 
 
 SHOWING SCANT KAILRO VD FACILITIES AND THE ABSENCE OF PREJUDICE ON THE PART 
 OF RAILROADS TO INCREASED WATER-TRANSPORTATION. 
 
 We find in reference to railroad transportation between the South and West, that wo 
 have but one through-line between here and all western cities ; or, taking Chicago and 
 Saint Louis as the termini or depots, and New Orleans as the entrepot, and beginning 
 at this line which has just been completed and is now in full dperation. This line, by 
 the completion of the one hundred and six miles between Jackson, Tenn., and Cairo, 
 111., shortens the distance to Chicago to nine hundred and twelve miles, and to Saint 
 Louis to six hundred and ninety-three miles from New Orleans, and will save in time 
 some twelve hours to Saint Louis and. thirteen hours to Chicago for passengers, and 
 will quicken or lessen the time to Saint Louis on freight to three days, and from here 
 to Chicago to five days. The demand in the West for our home productions of rite, 
 molasses, moss, cotton, and sugar will thus he largely increased by celerity of transporta- 
 tion and certainty of delivery as well as the avoidance of any insurance charges, but 
 especially will this be the case of all imports to all western ports of delivery which 
 the increase of imported goods via New Orleans have already increased, and will still 
 further increase in number the western ports of delivery and entry. It is evident to 
 any one at all conversant with the wants of the South and the capacity of the West, 
 that the need of the products of both are greatly augmented by the quickness with 
 which they can be moved and our cheapness of transportation. While admitting that 
 river transportation is cheaper than rail, and that water is not liable to damage like 
 rail we claim that for both competitors to this whole business there is room, ne"ed, and 
 work • and that all we need is a sufficient outlet and inlet to and from the markets of 
 the world of sufficient capacity to give us enough business for both ; and the appro- 
 
846 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 priationthat has been made for one custom-house in another looal !ty7° u ^,f i ^f n ^ 
 this outlet at the bar of the Mississippi. Our rail transportation, mlle /°* ""Jf', b0 ™ 
 ways, north or west, will he cheaper than by any eastern route ; and, altnougn we 
 cannot at this moment give the exact figures upon gram from the S^-grow^ng West, 
 we can safely assume that 26 or 27 cents per bushel will bring corn from almost any 
 point in the West tributary to Cairo or Saint Louis, by rail to New Orleans, and a re- 
 turn freight of not over 55 cents per 100 pounds to Chicago, and 40 cents to feaint 
 Louis, on all of our home products, tropical fruits, &c. The distance from Chicago to 
 New York being nine hundred and sixty-one miles, and from here to Chicago nine 
 hundred and twelve miles, our having a return freight each way will gije.any south 
 and west route the advantage of a double business ; and the low price of freights from 
 abroad on imports have been so thoroughly canvassed elsewhere in this report we do 
 comment upon them here. 
 
 Exhibit I. 
 
 REPORT ON THE TOBACCO TRADE. 
 
 The territory bordering on the Lower Ohio, Cumberland, and Tennessee Rivers, and 
 the State of Missouri, for which New Orleans is the outlet and natural market, pro- 
 duces annually one hundred and fifty to one hundred and seventy thousand hogsheads 
 of tobacco. , . 
 
 The average product of Southern Kentucky, Tennessee, Indiana, Illinois, and Mis- 
 souri, for the past five years, is set down at one hundred and sixty thousand two hun- 
 dred hogsheads per annum. 
 
 Average crop of Kentucky, past five years 80, 200 
 
 Tennessee r 21,400 
 
 Indiana 27,600 
 
 Illinois - 12,200 
 
 Missouri 18, 800 
 
 Total ; 160,200 
 
 Nearly one-half of this amount is taken up in the West, Northwest, Eastern States, 
 and Canada, for home manufacture and consumption, while eighty to one hundred 
 thousand hogsheads go to the sea-board markets, viz : NewYork and New Orleans, and 
 is there purchased and exported to the different states of Europe. 
 ' Prior to the war, New Orleans enjoyed nearly all the export trade in this product. 
 
 The receipts of tobacco at New Orleans for ten years prior or preceding the war, was 
 six hundred and sixty-eight thousand seven hundred and forty-nine hogsheads, the ex- 
 port value of which was $82,482,815. 
 
 Since 1865, or close of the war, nine years' receipts here have been one hundred and 
 seventy-nine thousand three hundred and sixty-eight hogsheads. Value of same, 
 $33,136,482. > * 
 
 The growth of this trade at the port of New Orleans, since the war, is very marked 
 and encouraging, rising from two thousand four hundred and ten hogsheads the year 
 succeeding the war, to thirty thousand eight hundred and forty-one hogsheads this 
 past year, valued at for past year, $4,724,500. 
 
 This whole trade properly belongs to New Orleans, and would nearly all come here 
 had we sufficient capital, and ocean freights were not relatively higher from this than 
 other sea-ports, mainly owing to lack of water on the bars. 
 
 Average freights from the west by steamboats is four dollars per hogshead or twenty- 
 seven cents per hundred pounds. Tobacco has been brought here this season by steam- 
 boat at 15 cents per hundred pounds, or two dollars and a half per hogshead. By the 
 barge system all the tobacco could be brought to this market at 8 or 10 cents per hun- 
 dred pounds. 
 
 Railroad freights from western tobacco markets to eastern sea-boards will average 
 about 60 cents per hundred pounds. 
 
 Expenses of hauling tobacco in New Orleans : Expenses of hauling tobacco in New York : 
 
 Storage per month 25 cts. per hhd. Storage per month 40 cts. per hhd. 
 
 Drayage.... 75 " " Drayage $125 " " 
 
 From-the foregoing figures it will be seen that there is a saving of over five dollars 
 and fifty cents per hogshead in favor of New Orleans over New York, and by the barge 
 system the difference would be seven dollars per hogshead in favor of New Orleans. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 847 
 
 Exhibit J. 
 
 Flour received, consumed locally, and exported from . 
 August 31, 1873, omitting '. 
 
 , New Orleans from September 1, 1851, to 
 > 1861 and 1862. . 
 
 Barrels. 
 Eeoeived from September 1, 1851, to August 31, 1852 927, 212 
 
 1.1852, " 31,1853 806,672 
 
 1.1853, " 31,1854 874,256 
 
 1.1854, " 31, 1855 673,111 
 
 1.1855, " 31,1856 , 1,120,974 
 
 1.1856, " 31,1857 .* 1,290,597 
 
 1.1857, " 31,1858 1,538,742 
 
 1.1858, " 31,1859 1,084,978 
 
 1.1859, '" 31,1860 973,800 
 
 1.1860, " 31,1861 1,009,201 
 
 1.1863, « 31,1864 399,897 
 
 1.1864, « 31,1865 790,824 
 
 1.1865, " 31,1866 993,331 
 
 1.1866, " 31,1867 922,125 
 
 1.1867, " 31,1868 868,086 
 
 1.1868, " 31,1869 1,276,921 
 
 1.1869, " 31,1870 1,641,477 
 
 1.1870, " 31,1871 1,541,281 
 
 1.1871, " 31,1872 1,086,488 
 
 1.1872, " 31,1873 1,046,124 
 
 Exports of flour from the port of New Orleans from September 1, 1851, to August 31, 1873, 
 omitting the years 1861 and 1862. 
 
 Barrels. ' 
 
 Exported from September 1, 1851, to August 31, 1852 
 
 1, 1852, 
 1, 1853, 
 1, 1854, 
 1, 1855, 
 1, 1856, 
 1, 1857, 
 1, 1858, 
 1, 1859, 
 1, 1860, 
 1, 1863, 
 1, 1864, 
 1, 1865, 
 1, 1866, 
 1, 1867, 
 1, 1868, 
 1, 1869, 
 1, 1870, 
 1, 1871, 
 1, 1872, 
 
 31, 1853.. 
 31, 1854.. 
 31, 1855.. 
 31, 1856. 
 31, 1857. 
 31, 1858. 
 31, 1859. 
 31, 1860. 
 31, 1863. 
 31, 1864. 
 31, 1865. 
 31, 1866. 
 31, 1867. 
 31, 1868. 
 31, 1869. 
 31, 1870. 
 31, 1871. 
 31, 1872. 
 31, 1873. 
 
 544,711 
 520, 415 
 585, 969 
 345,743 
 729, 442 
 904, 910 
 ., 052, 756 
 605, 500 
 386, 511 
 448,893 
 50, 641 
 330, 287 
 290, 623 
 282,435 
 285, 704 
 377, 236 
 556, 323 
 513, 947 
 485,550 
 479, 749 
 
 local consumption of flour at the port of New Orleans from September 1,1851, to August 
 31, 1873, omitting the years 1861 and lb62. 
 
 Consumption from September 1, 1851, to August 31, 1852 
 
 1, 1852, 
 1, 1853, 
 1, 1854, 
 1, 1855, 
 1, 1856, 
 1, 1857, 
 1, 1858, 
 1, 1859, 
 1, 1860, 
 1, 1863, 
 1, 1864, 
 1, 1865, 
 1, 1866, 
 1, 1867, 
 1, 1868, 
 1, 1869, 
 1, 1870, 
 1, 1871, 
 1, 1872, 
 
 31, 1853.. 
 31, 1854.. 
 31, 1865.. 
 31, 1856.. 
 31, 1857. 
 31, 1858. 
 31, 1859. 
 31, 1860. 
 31, 1863. 
 31, 1864. 
 31, 1865. 
 31, 1866. 
 31, 1867. 
 31, 1868. 
 31, 1869. 
 31, 1870. 
 31, 1871. 
 31, 1872. 
 31, 1873. 
 
 Barrels. 
 382,501 
 288,257 
 288, 287 
 327, 365 
 391, 532 
 385,687 
 485,986 
 479, 478 
 537,289 
 560, 308 
 349,256 
 460, 537 
 702,908 
 639, 690 
 582,382 
 899, 685 
 1,085,154 
 1,027,334 
 600,908 
 566,375 
 
848 
 
 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Value of flour received at the port of New Orleans from September 1, 1851, to August 31, 
 1873, omitting the years 1861 and 1862, giving" the value each year. 
 
 1852 $3,708,848 
 
 1853 3,639,0*4 
 
 1854 6,119,792 
 
 1855 5,533,166 
 
 1856 -'.-- 8,407,305 
 
 1857 9,034,179 
 
 1858 7,078,213 
 
 1859 6,508,868 
 
 1860 6,036,625 
 
 1863..., 7,064,407 
 
 1864 
 
 1865 7,750,075 
 
 1866 10,429,975 
 
 1867 11,987,625 
 
 1868... 9,114,714 
 
 1869 8,912,909 
 
 1870 9, 848, 802 
 
 1871 9,710,070 
 
 1872 7,612,426 
 
 1873 7,328,868 
 
 From September 1 
 
 1 
 1 
 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 
 1851, to August 31 
 
 1852, 
 1853, 
 1854, 
 1855, 
 1856, 
 1857, 
 1858, 
 1859, 
 1860, 
 1863, 
 18G4, 
 1865, 
 1866, 
 1867, 
 1868, 
 1869, 
 1870, 
 1871, 
 1872, 
 
 31 
 31 
 31 
 31 
 31 
 31 
 31 
 31 
 31 
 31 
 31 
 31 
 31 
 31 
 31 
 31 
 31 
 31 
 31 
 
 Exhibit J — Continued. 
 
 ^Exports of flour from the port of New Orleans from September 1, 1851, to August 31, 1873, 
 omitting the years 1861 and 1862, and showing to what places exported. 
 
 From September 1 
 to August 31. 
 
 1851 
 and 
 1852. 
 
 1852 
 and 
 1853. 
 
 1853 
 and 
 1854. 
 
 1854 
 and 
 1855. 
 
 1855 
 and 
 1856. 
 
 1856 
 and 
 1857. 
 
 1857 
 and 
 1858. 
 
 1858 
 and 
 1859. 
 
 1859 
 and 
 1860. 
 
 1860 
 and 
 1861. 
 
 
 94, 638 
 61, 134 
 
 179,911 
 
 138, 5C9 
 
 6,681 
 
 63, 764 
 
 24 
 
 49, 004 
 35, 155 
 
 194, 607 
 
 170, 569 
 
 1,296 
 
 69, 784 
 
 33, 139 
 7,181 
 
 117, 940 
 
 190, 455 
 
 5,905 
 
 231, 268 
 
 91 
 
 86, 133 
 93,158 
 
 78, 846 
 
 27, 463 
 
 707 
 
 59, 436 
 
 131,591 
 200, 179 
 
 108, 686 
 
 99, 862 
 
 3,947 
 
 185, 177 
 
 141,494 
 241,466 
 
 141,142 
 
 72, 758 
 17,274 
 290, 776 
 
 129, 242 
 258, 392 
 
 173, 32L 
 
 268, 428 
 
 3,566 
 
 219, 807 
 
 71,286 
 247, 516 
 
 165, 397 
 6,469 
 4,052 
 
 107, 778 
 3,002 
 
 10,862 
 
 41,524 
 
 247,931 
 
 6,341 
 
 6,438 
 
 74, 115 
 
 4,976 
 
 Other United States 
 
 3,375 
 205, 544 
 
 
 186,278 
 901 
 
 Other foreign ports - 
 Philadelphia 
 
 47, 817 
 2 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 From September 1 
 to August 31. 
 
 1863 
 and 
 1864. 
 
 1864 
 and 
 1865. 
 
 1865 
 and 
 1866. 
 
 1866 
 and 
 1867. 
 
 1667 
 and 
 1868. 
 
 1868 
 and 
 1869. 
 
 1869 
 and 
 1870. 
 
 1870 
 and 
 1871. 
 
 1871 
 and 
 1872. 
 
 1872 
 aud 
 1873. 
 
 New York 
 
 8, 099 
 
 5,168 
 
 450 
 
 590 
 6,194 
 
 177, 259 
 
 113,618 
 
 974 
 
 16, 166 
 1,710 
 2, 499. 
 
 18, 061 
 
 78, 618 
 
 44, 047 
 
 1,947 
 
 120, 233 
 
 1,513 
 
 10, 746 
 
 38, 096 
 
 423 
 
 74, 733 
 
 52, 421 
 
 7,704 
 
 120, 017 
 
 1,504 
 
 44 
 
 25, 557 
 
 455 
 
 61,974 
 33, 042 
 2,762 
 
 88, 717 
 
 324 
 
 70, 078 
 
 23,807 
 
 26, 242 
 
 6, 420 
 
 296 
 
 159, 000 
 68, 372 
 79, 496 
 37,410 
 
 21,103 
 3,814 
 
 4,467 
 
 19, 317 
 
 9,965 
 
 Philadelphia 
 
 Other United StateB 
 
 
 
 
 302, 527 
 79, 910 
 
 100, 102 
 48, 867 
 
 351,540 
 14,208 
 
 104, 131 
 39, 588 
 
 381, 078 
 
 1, 220 
 
 57, 278 
 
 20, 399 
 
 363,961 
 
 Great Britain 
 
 Cuba 
 
 10,746 
 36,986 
 
 Other foreign ports - 
 
 30, 140 
 
 15,304 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 EXHIBIT K. 
 
 SAIL AND STEAM TONNAGE TO AND FROM NEW ORLEANS SINCE 1864. 
 
 New Orleans, November 10, 1873. 
 To J. H. Kennard, Esq., 
 
 Chairman of Committee on Transportation, Neto Orleans : 
 Dear Sir: I beg herewith to hand you statement of amount of sail and steam ton- 
 nage, foreign and American, plying to and from the port of New Orleans since 1869 
 to present date. 
 
 Since 1869, there has been loaded outward from the port of New Orleans tonnage to 
 the amount of 886,599 tons average per year, or a total of 2,401,3115 sail tonnage and 
 3,031,480 steam tonnage during five years past. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 849 
 
 Fully two-thirds of this tonnage, if loaded with heavy cargo to their full draught ca- 
 pacity, would be unable to cross the bar at our river-mouth, owing to the shoal in 
 water during a great portion of the year. Consequently, in the event of taking cargoes 
 of corn or wheat, they have been confined, in a great measure, to taking half or part 
 cargoes, depending upon cotton or other light cargo for filling up. The same difficulty 
 occurs as to inward cargoes ; particularly those from Great Britain. Such cargoes im- 
 ported from that country to the United States are, almost without exception, heavy 
 cargoes. Consequently ships bound to this port are obliged to confine themselves to a 
 draught of water in loading, say eighteen feet during winter months, and sixteen feet 
 during summer, owing to stage of water on the bar. 
 
 Thus many of our finest ships whose deep-load draught-capacity would be from twenty 
 to twenty-two feet are obliged to confine themselves to limited draught, thereby caus- 
 ing great loss to the ships' owners. 
 
 During the low stage of water at the bar-mouth of the Mississippi, a complete block- 
 ade is at times formed by the sticking on the bar' of some five or six ships, these often 
 remaining there for weeks, during which time ships arrive outside inward bound, also 
 from the city outward bound, quite a fleet thus accumulating both inside and outside, 
 unable to pass either way owing to this effective blockade, thus causing incalculable 
 loss to both ship-owner and shipper, to say nothing of heavy bills for towage, arising 
 from these causes. 
 
 Steamships. — There is great increase in this type of ship, there being now plying 
 regularly to this port five lines of steamers of the finest class, two to Germany and 
 three to Liverpool, representing tonnage to the extent of 37,500 tons ; besides transient 
 steamers, touching for cargo, to amount of 17,700. These apply to foreign alone. 
 
 Coastwise we have steam tonnage to amount of 30,000 tons. The majority of these 
 steamers are fitted for carrying corn in bulk, but are debarred from taking more than 
 half or two-thirds cargo, owing to objections as previously stated, insufficiency of 
 water on the bar. 
 
 Were there a draught of say from 25 to 27 feet to be depended upon at the mouth of 
 our river, double or treble the amount of grain would no doubt "be shipped from our 
 port — more than at present — to say nothing of the increase that would occur in our 
 steam tonnage, owing to the fact that they would be enabled to load to their utmost 
 capacity with any cargo that offered. 
 
 The southern route has proved to be the most desirable for many reasons. The 
 losses or disasters by this route have been less, as proved by comparison, than any 
 other. 
 
 Climatic objections, which have been raised against this route for cereals, are with- 
 out foundation, there never having been, to the knowledge of the writer, a single case 
 where corn has been shipped in a sound condition, any damage arising during the voy- 
 age ; but, on the contrary, has been landed in fine order at the port of destination. 
 I am, dear sir, respectfully, yours, 
 
 A. K. MILLER. 
 
 Exhibit L. 
 
 Statement as to the Memphis detained on the oar — Condition of her cargo, etc. 
 
 New Orleans, November 10, 1873. 
 Statement of sundry expenses incurred by the steamship Memphis, caused by her de- 
 tention on the bar at Southwest Pass for want of sufficient depth of water, and the 
 breaking of her propeller. , 
 
 Amount paid the New Orleans Tow-boat Association for assistance, while 
 lying on the bar, to work the steamer over and towing her to the city 
 
 again after breaking the propeller *£'—? SS 
 
 Elevator charges, storing and handling cargo A™"" 
 
 Valette dry-dock charges for labor and carpenter-work d, tU5 00 
 
 Machinist's and labor bill, fitting propeller 1,300 00 
 
 Stevedore's bill, discharging and loading..... 5,000 00 
 
 Painting steamer's bottom l.ww w 
 
 Surveyor, inspector, and extending protest ™^ 
 
 Putting cargo in good shipping condition, and insurance on the same yuo UO 
 
 Cost of propeller, about -, 2,500 00 
 
 Other charges, including commissions, &c »' wu uu 
 
 31,609 00 
 
 The breaking of the propeller is supposed to have been caused by a sunken log, or 
 some obstruction on the bar. 
 54 T S 
 
850 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 The time the grain was in the'ship before landed 'here was about thirty days, and 
 from the time when first taken on board, until landed in Liverpool, about seventy-hve 
 
 the condition of the corn when discharged here at the elevator was as good as when 
 it first went on board. . . 
 
 The steamers of the Mississippi and Dominion Steamship Line are well adapted, tor 
 carrying grain in bulk ; all of them having tight bins and put in with great care and 
 expense, being also well ventilated. 
 
 Exibit M. 
 
 Improvements of the mouths of the Mississippi and Fort Saint Philip Canal. 
 
 United States Engineer Office, 
 
 New Orleans, La., November 8, 1873. 
 
 Chairman Committee on Obstructions, New Orleans Chamber of Commerce : 
 
 Dear Sir : In answer to your request, I send you the following on improvements at 
 the mouth of the Mississippi and on Saint Philip Canal : 
 
 IMPROVEMENTS. 
 
 For record of the past two years, see Appendix A. 
 
 For the benefit commerce has derived from the work, see Appendix B. 
 
 WHAT MAY BE DONE. 
 
 With the appliances now available, with a new dredge added in 1877, and one every 
 five years thereafter, (at a cost of $250,000,) to take the place of those worn out in ser- 
 vice. 
 
 With an appropriation each year of $150,000 for running expenses, repairs, &c. 
 
 With the superintending engineer in full control of the channel excavated, author- 
 ized to assess fines for damage arising from willfulness or ignorance, and with power 
 to enforce collection of fines in the United States courts, there can be made and main- 
 tained a channel 20 feet in depth at extreme low tide, either at Southwest Pass, or at 
 Pass a L'Outre. 
 
 Without the appropriation, nature will keep a channel of 14 feet. 
 
 With the appropriation, and without full control over the use of the channel made, 
 the latter may be kept at a depth ranging from 16 feet to 21 feet. 
 
 The present mode of, and appliauces for, dredging have given better results than any 
 heretofore tried, and are esteemed the best that can now be adopted. 
 
 THE CANAL. 
 
 There is no doubt of its feasibility. It will probably cost $7,500,000. It will be 
 seven miles in leDgth. It will have but one lift-lock, and that with only a lift of from 
 1 to 6 feet ; the latter varying with the stage of tho river. 
 
 No river water will be admitted into the trunk of the canal. 
 
 ADVANTAGES TO COMMERCE. 
 
 The canal will admit to the port o£ New Orleans vessels of the greatest freighting 
 capacity ; in consequence, cheapening freights on cheap and bulky goods. 
 
 It will have the effect of reducing tonnage charges fully 100 per cent, below the pres- 
 ent charges. 
 
 It will admit vessels without delay. 
 
 It will be a work of permanent improvement, as such inspiring confidence in com- 
 mercial ventures to this port, and free from all the uncertainties attending dredging, 
 viz: effects of storms, careless pilotage or towage, suspension on account of breakage 
 of machinery, or, what would be more, on account of failure to make appropriation. 
 
 It will place New Orleans on a footing with the most favored port in the United 
 States as regards depth of entrance, and on an equality with the principal European 
 ports with which she trades. 
 
 It will give the Valley of the Mississippi an economical and certain route to the 
 sea at all seasons of the year. 
 
 I believe this covers the points you made. 
 Very respectfully, your obedient servant, 
 
 C. W. HOWELL, 
 Captain Engineers, U. S. A. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 851 
 
 Exhibit N. 
 
 ACTUAL EXPENSES OF TRANSPORTATION FROM SAINT LOUIS TO NEW ORLEANS BY 
 
 BARGES. 
 
 The Future City, tow-boat, and five barges of the Mississippi Valley Transportation 
 Company : Actual expenses from Saint Louis to New Orleans, twelve hundred and 
 fifty miles, (each barge is 1,500 tons capacity :) 
 
 Cost of tow-boat, new this year $60,000 ' 
 
 Cost of barges, $15,000 each, new also 75,000 
 
 Interest on same at 7 per cent., six days $155 00 
 
 Coal, 50 tons per day, at $2.50, six days 750 00 
 
 Engineers, one $3 and one $5 per day, six days ■ 48 00 
 
 Captain, at $5 per day,six days 30 00 
 
 Men, ten, at $1.50 per day each, six days 90 00 
 
 Pilots, two, at $5 per day each,.six days. 60 00 
 
 Cook, at $1.50 per day, six days 9 00 
 
 Board per man, each day, 16 cents, six days 48 00 
 
 Oil, tallow, and waste, $2 per day.six days 12 00 
 
 Maintenance six boats, $18.24 per day, six days 109 44 
 
 Total: 1,311 44 
 
 Cost per ton, moved 1,250 miles, 17.49 cents. 
 
 Cost per ton per mile, ft of a mill. 
 
 Cost per bushel of wheat, 1,250 miles, 5£ mills. 
 
 Exhibt O. 
 
 EXPENSES OF STEAMER JOHN F. TOLLE FROM SAINT LOUIS TO NEW ORLEANS. 
 
 New Orleans, November 21, 1873. 
 Steamer John F. Tolle ; tons capacity, 1,650 ; value, $65,000 : 
 
 Interest six days, at 7 per cent , $74 80 
 
 Coal, twenty-four tons per day, six days, at $2.50 144 00 
 
 Engineers, two, at $3.33 and $2.50 per day, six days 34 93 
 
 Captain, $5 per day, six days 30 00 
 
 Pilots, two, each $6.G7, six days - 79 98 
 
 Men, sixteen, at $1.16J per day, six days 112 02 
 
 Cook, at $2 per day, six days - 12 00 
 
 Board of twenty-two men, at 50 cents per day, six days 66 00 
 
 Oil, tallow, waste, &c, $4 per day, six days - 24 00 
 
 Maintenance per day, $15, six days 90.00 
 
 Total 667 80 
 
 Cost per ton moved 1,250 miles, 40.47 cents. 
 
 Cost per ton moved one mile, 3.47 mills. 
 
 Cost per bushel of wheat, 1,250 miles, 1.2 cents. , 
 
 Exhibit P. 
 
 LATEST CORN SHIPMENT FROM NEW ORLEANS TO LIVERPOOL. 
 
 To John H. Kennard, Esq., Chairman : 
 
 We are November 28, 1873, just in receipt of account of sales in Liverpool of a cargo 
 of corn shipped on steamship Louisiana, October 26, of 17,479 bushels, which arrived 
 there November 16, and sold for the highest market price, 34 shillings and 6 pence per 
 imperial quarter, which netted 65* cents per bushel of 5b pounds i m New Orleans. 
 This cargo cost 42 cents at Saint Louis, and paid 14 cents river freight from Saint Louis 
 and 1 cent transfer charges, with 14 pence ocean freight. Had there been 9 feet of 
 water above Cairo instead of 4*. the river freight would have costbut Soento 
 
 President of Eleoator. 
 
852 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 A BILL to Tiro-vide for the construction of the Fort Saint Philip canal and its maintenance as d national 
 ' public highway. 
 
 Whereas the Mississippi River is a national highway, the improvement and defense 
 of which concern the whole people ; and whereas the repeated experiments of the Gov- 
 ernment to clear its months from obstruction have failed to relieve the commerce of 
 the Mississippi Valley permanently of the burdens arising therefrom ; and whereas 
 careful surveys and estimates, made under orders of the Government, have demonstrated 
 the feasibility and economy of a Bhip-canal to connect the Mississippi River with the 
 deep water of the Gulf of Mexico ; and whereas said canal will afford great protection 
 as a military work, and will be of vast importance to the United States in facilitating 
 and increasing the commerce between the States and foreign countries : Therefore, 
 
 Section 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States 
 of America in Congress assembled, That aship-canal, to connect the Mississippi River with 
 the Gulf of Mexico, commencing at some convenient point on the Mississippi River be- 
 low Fort Saint Philip, on the east side of said river, and terminating at some convenient 
 point in Breton Island Pass in the Gulf of Mexico, shall be constructed and maintained 
 at the expense of and under the supervision and control of the Government of the 
 United States. 
 
 Sec. 2. That the dimensions of said canal shall be such as to give free passage to all 
 vessels of commerce and war that may be employed in the commerce of the port of 
 New Orleans, to be determined by the engineers in charge, 
 
 Sec. 3. That the Secretary of War shall have power and authority, by engineers and 
 agents employed by him, to enter upon and appropriate to the use of the United 
 States, for the purposes aforesaid, any laDds for the construction of said canal, with 
 guard-gates, waste- weirs, locks, lock-bouses, basins, bridges, and other erections and fix- 
 tures as may be neceesary for the safe and convenient navigation of the said canal. 
 
 Sec. 4. That the location of said canal shall be that indicated in the report of the 
 engineers. 
 
 Sec. 5. That it shall be the duty of the Secretary of War, as soon as practicable after 
 the passage of this act, to secure the right of way for such canal, to acquire the title 
 to such lands as may be necessary by agreement, purchase, or voluntary cession from 
 the owners, if it can be done on reasonable terms; and if that shall be found impracti- 
 cable, then the Secretary of War may at any time thereafter enter upon and take pos- 
 session of said lands and appropriate the same to the United States for the purposes 
 aforesaid ; and it shall be his duty to apply to the district court of the United States 
 for the district of Louisiana, then in session, or if not in session, at its first session after 
 such appropriation is made, for the appointment of two commissioners, who shall he 
 freeholders in the parish where the land lies, one to be designated by the United 
 States and one by the owner of the land, who shall appraise said lands and report the 
 same to the district court as aforesaid, within ten days from the date of their appoint- 
 ment; that such report shall constitute the measure of the value of such land so ap- 
 propriated. That in all cases where such appraisers fail to agree, the court shall forth- 
 with appoint as umpire a freeholder residing in the parish where the land lies, whose 
 decision -shall constitute the measure of the value of such lands as aforesaid. 
 
 That in all cases where the amount of the value of the land in question exceeds five 
 hundred dollars, ($500,) the allegation to be accompanied with affidavit, either party 
 shall have the right of appeal to the circuit court of the United States upon compli- 
 ance with existing rules as to bond, &c. 
 
 That in no ease shall such appeal operate to suspend the entry upon occupation or 
 use of such lands, but shall be strictly confined to determining the proper sum to be 
 paid by the Government. 
 
 Ten days' notice shall be served upon the owner of such lands prior to the appoint- 
 ment as aforesaid, which notice shall state the time and place where such appraisment 
 will be made. If the owner be an absentee, notice shall be served by ten days' publi- 
 cation in the official journal. 
 
 No entry upon said lands shall be made for the purpose of uso and occupation until 
 the price settled upon shall have been paid to the owner or his ageut, or tendered and 
 refused. 
 
 Sec. 6. That the Secretary of War shall cause said canal to be made and constructed 
 through the lands to be taken and appropriated as hereinbefore provided, and that he 
 shall cause said work to be entered upon as soon as practicable, within a time not 
 exceeding six mouths from the date of the passage of this act, and shall cause the 
 same, with all necessary equipments, to be constructed and completed ready for navi- 
 gation at the earliest possible day consistent with the public interests; and for that 
 purpose he shall detail as many skillful and experienced officers of the United States 
 Engineer Corps as he may deem necessary to superintend and direct said work under 
 his orders. 
 
 Sec. 7. That the Secretary of War may cause, at his discretion, said work, or any 
 part thereof, to be put uuder contract to the lowest bidder who complies with the stipu- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 85il 
 
 lations of the contract to the satisfaction of the Secretary of War, who shall always 
 reserve the right to reject all bids. That he shall report to Congress on the first Monday 
 of December of each year, or as soon thereafter as may be, all the bids, with the name* 
 of the bidders and to whom contracts have been awarded : Provided, That no contract 
 
 shall be made except after days' public advertisement for proposals in at least two 
 
 public journals in the cities of New York; New Orleans, and Saint Louis, and sneh 
 other publications as the Secretary of War may deem necessary to give it due publicity. 
 That good and solvent security for the execution of the contracts shall be furnished iu 
 all cases to the satisfaction of the Secretary of War. 
 
 Sec. 8. That said canal shall at all times, night and day, be open to the free use and 
 navigation of all vessels and craft belonging to the United States, and, until otherwise 
 provided, to all nations in commercial amity with the United States, free from toll or 
 charges. 
 
 Sec 9. That after its completion such canal shall be maintained in good order and' 
 repair at the expense of the United States, and operated under the supervision of an 
 officer to be detailed by the Secretary of War for said duty and under his orders ; and 
 said caual shall be a military, naval, postal, and public highway, connecting the 
 Mississippi River and the Gulf of Mexico ; that the admiralty jurisdiction of the United 
 States district court for the district of Louisiana be extended so as to include all con- 
 troversies arising upon this canal between vessels navigating the same, as if said con- 
 troversies were upon the high seas. 
 
 Sec. 10. That the Secretary of War shall have power to establish all needful rules 
 and regulations not inconsistent with the laws of the United States concerning the n-3e 
 and navigation thereof, and provide such fines for the violation of such rules and regu- 
 lations as may be by him deemed expedient, and a copy thereof shall be filed in the 
 office of the clerk of the United States district court for the district of Louisiana ; and 
 printed copies of said rules shall be framed and hung in a conspicuous place on board 
 all canal and river tow-boats as well as in the offices at eitheii end of the canal ; also in 
 the public rooms of the New Orleans Chamber of Commerce and Cotton Exchange, undei- 
 
 a penalty of — ■ dollars for each omission : one-half for the beuefit of any informer, 
 
 and one-half for the benefit of the canal repair-fuud : Provided, That Congress may at 
 any time revise or abrogate such rules. 
 
 Sec. 11. That the sum of — ' dollars be, and the same is hereby, appropriatedout 
 
 of any moneys in the Treasury of the United States not otherwise appropriated, to carry 
 into effect the provisions of this act, and that the moneys hereby appropriated shall 
 remain and be at the disposal of the Secretary of War, and subject to his control, for 
 the purposes named in this act, until the work herein provided for is completed, any 
 law or regulation to the contrary notwithstanding. 
 
 JOHN H. KENNARD. 
 W. B. KOONTZ. 
 WM. M. BURWELL. 
 
 Examination of Hon. W. M. Buewell, on the subject of Mississippi 
 Eiver tonnage and reciprocal freights with the West Indies and South 
 America. 
 
 Mr. Buewell : Mr. Chairman, the subject upon which I am specially 
 requested to report is in regard to the state of commerce between the 
 Valley of the Mississippi and the Spanish American States. There are 
 many of us who believe that the trade lines of. latitude cross above us, 
 and that a very large proportion of the western productions will move 
 directly to Atlantic ports for exportation, as they will and have re- 
 ceived the foreign importations through the same ports. I would say 
 that in the estimation of many in this city, merchants and others, the 
 most important object of improving the Mississippi River will be to es- 
 tablish a direct line of communication between the immense produc- 
 tive interior of the West and the consuming markets of and beyond the 
 tropics. There is a physical impediment in the way which we ask Con- 
 gress to remove; bub there are diplomatic impediments also, which are 
 even greater, as far as that line of trade is concerned, than the physical 
 impediments to which I referred. The diplomatic impediments consist 
 in the want of reciprocal trade-treaties between the United States and 
 
854 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 the Spanish American States that are adjacent to or lie south of us. 
 Gentlemen know, and especially members of the Senate of the United 
 States, better than we do, the precise state of the treaties between the 
 United States and the Spanish American powers; and they will re- 
 member that, with the exception of a few special conventions there has 
 been scarcely any changes made in the treaty relations of these two 
 great interests since almost the origin of the Government. Almost all 
 our trade-treaties, as 1 understand, are based on the phrase of "the 
 most favored nations ;" and while such are the terms of our commercial 
 treaties with Spain, and while it is true that we can carry American 
 provisions or American manufactures into Spanish possessions on the 
 same terms with any other power, yet, when the fact is that we are 
 the only people producing corn and grain and bog products, that we do 
 send to the Spanish American possessions, it is perfectly plain that that 
 which is a tax on the trade of the most favored nations is practically 
 an oppressive tax upon the trade of the United States. The Spanish 
 tax in Cuba is 40 cents on the bushel on corn, which is, altogether, 
 equivalent to the entire cost of transportion from Iowa to New York. 
 The tax there is $55 on an American horse, $19 on a mule, $8 on a 
 barrel of flour, and 3£ cents on lard. And it is plain that a tax of 80 
 per cent., which is the average upon the products almost exclusively 
 marketed by Americans, is an excessive tax when contrasted with the 
 American tax upon fhe products of Cuba. We, as I understand/only 
 tax two of the principal products of Cuba. We admit her coffee duty 
 free, and we impose a tax of something upward of two cents on sugar, 
 aud a tax of some 75 per cent, on tobacco manufactured and not manu- 
 factured. 
 
 Our schedule of duties, then, would not average 25 per cent, on her 
 products, while hers averages on ours, certainly, 80 per cent. It seems to 
 me as if the Government of the United States, the Senate, the diplomatic 
 power, would or could, by any means, establish the same principle of 
 reciprocity in regard to Cuba which has been so zealously sought to be 
 re-established with Canada, there would be a draught of trade from the 
 great interior West into the markets of gold and silver, of sugar and 
 coffee, and that there would be a great gain to the people of the West 
 in sending their trade in this direction, instead of being compelled to 
 market it in Europe, and to import commodities received in exchange 
 across the Atlantic Oceau. I confine myself, however, .to say that the 
 rate of Spanish duties in Cuba is not reciprocal with respect to our own. 
 
 When we get to Mexico we find that the rate of duties there is still 
 more excessive. As a matter of course we cannot control the legislation 
 of Mexico, but there should be an immense demand for American west- 
 ern products there. Yet, if an American commodity is lauded at Vera 
 Cruz, and pays all the charges, interest, Federal and State, municipal 
 and railroad duties up to Mexico, your own consul lias shown that the 
 aggregate of this tax is 06 per cent. As one result the people of the 
 United States send to ten millions of. people within three and one-half 
 days of this place but about 10 per cent, of the commerce which they 
 receive. That commerce is supplied to a very great extent, so far as it 
 exists at all,, from other countries. It would seem, therefore, that the 
 deepening of the mouth of the Mississippi would be of extreme value 
 in regard to this particular trade ; and so it would be by turning the 
 Central American trade by steam-liues to this port, by bringing even 
 the Australian freight here, by bringing the whole coast-trade of South 
 Carolina, from Valparaiso up to Panama, in this direction. Those are 
 causes, as it seems to me, for the improvement of this river, It does 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 855 
 
 Dot consist aloue, although it is invaluable that it should be done, in 
 marketing corn bought in England at such rates as that a farmer in 
 Iowa, making four bushels, only gets one for himself; but if this corn 
 could be turned into Cuba, with the duty of now 40 cents, there would 
 be an immense demand, and it seems to me a legitimate demand, be- 
 cause it is on this coutinent. 
 
 It-is not proper to say anything on the subject of continental com- 
 mercial policy. But it seems to me that the improvement of the mouth 
 of the Mississippi would be of extreme value in enabling us to exchange 
 the commodities of the latitudes north for the productions of the tropics, 
 and beyond the tropics. This would require the deepening of our river. 
 That would authorize the establishment of steam-lines to all the ports 
 on both sides, and there would be a concentration of trade on longitu- 
 dinal line at this port which would be very valuable indeed to the 
 Northwest, and .which would give additional reason why the Govern- 
 ment should make a permanent way of communication between the 
 river and the ocean. 
 
 I confine myself, sir, to a very general sketch of these reciprocal rela- 
 tions between the two countries, because the committee will readily 
 perceive, whatever force it may be entitled to, and because I do not 
 wish, as there are so many other gentlemen and so many other subjects 
 to occupy more of your time, to say more on this subject. If, however, 
 there be any special questions which occur to any member of the com- 
 mittee, I will be glad to answer them if it is in my power. I only add 
 these reasons as substantive to the great reasons for the improvement 
 of the river, and especially by a canal which cannot be taken away and 
 which never can be obstructed in the future, if it be practicable. 
 
 I am also selected to say a few words to you on the subject of 
 emigration. I am in the habit of treating emigration as an element 
 of commerce as far as New Orleans is concerned. It is extremely 
 important to the Northwest to get emigrants oh the best terms pos- 
 sible; and we claim that an emigrant can be put through on this 
 route to any common point for less money than he can be brought 
 from New York across. We claim that this Mississippi route to the 
 West has many advantages in this respect; that its winter climate 
 is much more mild, and that it has a winter harvest which employs 
 the emigrants if they sre disposed to remain until the weather is 
 opened in the spring, when they can go anywhere to the Northwest in 
 time to prepare for and cultivate the products of that country. 
 
 We claim, moreover, that it is a safer voyage for life from Liverpool 
 to New Orleans than it is from Liverpool to northern ports ; and upon 
 the authority of Mr. Briggs, who is also selected for examination on 
 this subject,! can state that the whole number of steam-vessels ever 
 lost between New Orleans and Liverpool is six ; one of which was lost 
 in the Mersey, another on the coast of Ireland, a third on the coast of 
 France, a fourth by a hurricane, one stranded in broad day on the 
 reefs, last summer!! and one lost off the mouth of the Mississippi; 
 whilst we read, on the authority of Canadian documents, that there 
 were last year sixty^nine vessels lost, in the grain and lumber trade, 
 between Montreal and Liverpool. We contend that ours are calm seas, 
 that the climate is mild, that navigation is liable only to the exceptional 
 dangers of hurricanes; while north they encounter fogs, have an icy, 
 rock-bound coast, and storms, and the dangers of the route to life are 
 represented, as I say, by the loss of sixty-nine ships in one year against 
 six vessels only lost here during the whole history of steam-navigation. 
 
 We think that the deepening of the mouth of the Mississippi Kiver 
 
856 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 so as to bring large vessels in would- bring emigrants, and that the 
 money from these emigrants would enable us to carry corn much cheaper 
 from the West, because our vessels, as you will very readily see, come 
 in ballast. We receive, perhaps, only $1 back for $5 that is sent out, 
 and probably one ton comes back for every twenty-five we send out. 
 Our vessels return in ballast, as I have said, and, as a matter of course, 
 trading with this port, they must charge the expenses of the round 
 voyage on the single voyage alone. Hence, we think it for the interests 
 of the West to employ this as an emigrant route, since it is safer for 
 life and cheaper for delivery. We do not aspire to hold the emigrant 
 here any more than does New York City ; but we wish to offer this as a 
 winter-route to the West, and we wish the West to support the improve- 
 ment of the mouth of the river, because it will bring emigration cheaper 
 to them and safer, and it will be an additional encouragement for them 
 to come to this country. 
 
 By the Chateiuan : 
 
 Question. How would the improvement of the mouth of the Missis- 
 sippi increase the emigration ? 
 
 Answer. It would have the effect of increasing the burden of ships, 
 and, as a matter of course, make freights cheaper in and out. I think' the 
 estimate which I received from an experienced merchant in Buffalo was 
 that to enlarge the capacity of ships to a hundred thousand bushels of 
 grain would reduce the cost of freight by from 5 to 7 per cent. 
 
 Question. The point with me was this : Tour ships come back in bal- 
 last now "? 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir. 
 
 Question. Why do they not load with emigrants'? I do not under- 
 stand that. 
 
 Answer. I am aware, sir, that there are some subordinate difficulties. 
 In the first place, New York has had heretofore superior facilities for 
 the distribution of emigrants ; but she undoubtedly has very far supe- 
 rior facilities to New Orleans in the protection of emigrants. It is not 
 necessary for me to go over the system of protection ; but the emigrant 
 for that reason prefers going there naturally. And besides, he goes 
 under contract with large landed corporations and individual land-hold- 
 ers in the Northwest who engaged him in Europe for transportation in 
 that direction. 
 
 I do not know that it is an argument strictly legitimate to the im- 
 provement of the Mississippi Biver, and I have thrown it out more be- 
 cause I am in the presence of gentlemen called upon to reflect upon the 
 subject. It is certainly one reason why the commerce by the mouth of 
 the river between the West and Europe should be improved. 
 
 By Mr. West : , 
 
 Question. Would not the fact of there being a greater draught of water 
 at the mouth of the Mississippi naturally make it a greater resort for 
 vessels and steamers from Europe ? 
 
 Answer. That is very obvious. 
 
 Question. That being so, would not that necessarily induce a greater 
 influx of emigration in that direction ? Is not that your idea ? 
 
 Answer. If I were to enlarge on the subject, the reasons I should 
 assign why we have not emigration is because we have not addressed 
 ourselves to it as a substantive element of import as they have else- 
 where. 
 
 Question. But do you not mean that if we had more steamships, and 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 857 
 
 if they were habitually more in the habit of coming here, there would 
 be naturally more emigration ! 
 
 Answer. I find a difficulty in the question addressed me by the Chair- 
 man why they do not now come. But I still think if there was a greater 
 trade between the West and Europe, that the West could import its 
 emigrants on better terms by this route than they do by any other. I 
 acknowledge the difficulty which the Chairman has suggested, and I 
 will not go into any explanation of the causes, which are local to some 
 extent. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Question. Is there some difficulty from here up the river ? 
 
 Answer. None whatever. Our barge lines here will take a passenger 
 •on contract, with 300 pounds of measurement goods free, and carry him . 
 to Saint Louis for $5, and be glad to get him. 
 
 Question. Will they take an emigrant and his baggage to Saint Louis 
 for $5? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; they will allow for 300 pounds of baggage on this 
 route, while on the New York route they only allow for 150 pounds. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. I have supposed, in thinking over this subject myself, that 
 the reason probably might be found in the irregularity of vessels. 
 Answer. That is it, sir. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 Question. That is the drift of my question ; that if they habitually 
 came here there would be a greater emigration ? 
 Answer. That is it, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. What is the tonnage of the largest vessels which now come 
 into your port ? 
 
 Answer. I can say generally that we have vessels here from twenty- 
 five hundred to three thousand tons. If you will allow me I will state, 
 in regard to emigration, that my explanation is, we have heretofore 
 endeavored to confine emigration to southern ports, and that'the in- 
 ducement is not as great to come to this port as it is to come to the 
 region of country above here. We think it has been heretofore regarded 
 by the Northwest as its interest to prefer northern routes to ours. What 
 I am speaking of is with the emigration trade of the Northwest. We 
 do not take five thousand emigrants now at this port. We take many 
 of them for Texas, and very few for this State, while New York, as 
 the committee is aware, takes more than three hundred thousand. 
 
 Question. You spoke of the safety of this route. I call your atten- 
 tion to a statement I have seen, although it has never been authorita- 
 tively corroborated, to the effect that in eleven years $22,000,000 worth 
 of shipping-property had been lost in passing around the Florida coast. 
 What are the facts in that regard 1 
 
 Answer Mr. Briggs, one of our argest marine insurance officers, will 
 respond upon that question. I will mention, however, that is a loss 
 principally upon the coastwise trade, and that that has been almost 
 taken from us by the cross-rail ; so that we do not, in lact, need the 
 coastwise trade as much as heretofore. The damage amputated before 
 the war to about a million and a half of dollars annually for the loss, 
 and I suppose it may be put at something of that sort now. But I am 
 
§58- TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 confining myself entirely to the transatlantic trade, and I apprehend 
 that there have been no such losses in passing Key West or the Florida 
 reefs on the European voyage. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. Continuing the emigrant question a step further, what will 
 be the cost further up the Mississippi ? You have given us the point of 
 Saint Louis, but the majority, perhaps, do not want to stop there. They 
 want to go higher up, do they not? 
 
 Answer. I have not considered it necessary to go beyond Saint Louis, 
 because that is the point of intersection, and is assumed as such, be- 
 tween the Mississippi route and the route by rail. It would cost an 
 emigrant as much, whether coming by one route as the other, from that 
 point of intersection. I may state that the barge lines here and at 
 Saint Louis would take an emigrant from Bremen to Fort Benton with- 
 out putting him ashore more than once or twice. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Are these barges so constructed as to carry emigrants com- 
 fortably? 
 
 Answer. They are fitted with bunks, and I am authorized to say by 
 the president of the barge line, Captain Bay, of Saint Louis, and 
 another gentleman, that they were anxious to obtain emigrants and 
 passengers to go up the river. 
 
 Examination of Lewis J. Higby upon the subject of climatic influ- 
 ences on grain-shipments from New Orleans, and obstructions at the 
 mouth of the Mississippi Elver. 
 
 Mr. HiOrBY. Mr. Chairman, as much has been said about this climatic 
 influence, I will remark that my experience at the North in handling 
 grain, from 1844 to 1868, was the largest of any one handler in Mil- 
 waukee, I having charge of the Milwaukee and Saint Paul elevator, 
 and all the grain that the company brought in, and my experience 
 here since 1868 to the present time, during five years, has been that we 
 can keep grain here longer in the elevator than I could in Milwaukee — 
 that is in the summer time, I mean to say. 
 
 I also wish to say that grain spoils mostly during the germinating 
 seasons, and that is during the month of May and June. During these 
 months there are frequently very muggy spells. Sometimes, perhaps, 
 there will not be more than one or two of them during the season, and 
 sometimes there will be one a week. You have all experienced them, I 
 presume, at the North, when the air is very warm and sultry. Eor in- 
 stance, you are all aware, T suppose, of the situation of Milwaukee; and 
 to show you how it operated, I will say that we had once come there 
 from Bipon, which was eighty miles away, a train of about twenty cars, 
 about 11 o'clock in the morning, out of one elevator at Bipon which had 
 been taken in in the winter and had not been disturbed. This was in 
 the month of June. It was inspected by the inspector as soon as the 
 cars were opened as No. 1 wheat. When the grain came down to the 
 elevator, at about 2 o'clock, they perceived something was the matter 
 with it, and the inspector's attention was called to it. He looked over 
 it, and said the grain had undergone a sweat since he inspected it, and 
 he pronounced it rejected. The owner went to the chamber of commerce 
 and made a report that it was wrong to defraud him, as he thought, out 
 of 15 cents a bushel. They sent a committee immediately to examine 
 it, and it was found to be spoiled. We stored the wheat in a separate 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 859 
 
 bin. He took it to another place and handled it over, and in two weeks 
 from that time he brought it back again and put it in as No. 2 grain. 
 That is only one instance out of many that I could show you so that you 
 could understand how grain will spoil at certain hours and certain times, 
 when it would last a long time under any other circumstances. When 
 grain comes here from Saint Louis, it is generally six or seven days 
 on the way. It is put on barges which are about 15 feet between the 
 joints, and between the joints there are 5 feet of grain, usually on deck, 
 and then the windows are open forward and aft, and there is a continual 
 draught through. Now, when that corn leaves Saint Louis, unless it is 
 in the winter time, when there is no danger, in the summer time when 
 the warm weather continues, that draught passes through, and that 
 grain is undergoing a drying process. When it gets here, it is in better 
 order when it goes into the elevator or on board of a ship than it is in 
 the spring of the year in Milwaukee or on the lake. We have stored 
 grain here for four months during the summer time, and then the grain 
 came out in very good order. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Was that wheat or corn? 
 
 Answer. Both. We have never stored wheat here through the sum- 
 mer season ; but we have stored it from the 1st of November, in the fall, 
 until the next May, and then it went out in as good order as when it 
 came in. 
 
 Question. Are your elevators constructed on the same principle as the 
 Milwaukee elevators ? 
 
 Answer. Precisely the same construction. 
 
 Question. What is the elevator capacity of New Orleans f 
 
 Answer. Seven hundred and -fifty thousand bushels. 
 
 Question. You distribute grain from here, do you not, through the 
 Southern States for consumption ? 
 
 Answer. Everywhere it is necessary for it to go. 
 
 Question. That brought down the river by barges is stored in the ele- 
 vator in the general way, and left there until distributed ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, Sir. 
 
 Question. Is the business conducted in the same way as it is in Mil- 
 waukee? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. What is the difference? 
 
 Answer. All grain that comes here comes in barges— of course, in 
 large quantities, a barge bringing perhaps ten, twenty, thirty, forty, or 
 fifty thousand bushels. That belongs to one party, and of course we 
 store it by itself. It is not inspected here at all. 
 
 Question. You have no inspection of grain ? 
 
 Answer So, sir; we have an inspector, and can have it inspected 
 whenever the parties desire it ; but the parties do not desire it unless it 
 is bought subject to such a man's inspection. Now, in northern parts* 
 each car as it comes in, or each barge-load as it comes in, is inspected, 
 and everybody has to abide by what the inspector says. Their eleva- 
 tors store all grain together. For instance, if a man brings m grain to- 
 day, he may not sell that same grain until next summer. He gets a re- 
 ceipt for No. 1, No. 2, No. 3, or whatever he calls for, and draws the 
 grain of that grade, while at the same time his grain may be then in 
 
 Liverpool, or eaten up. . -ov™.i, » 
 
 Question. Your mode of doing business is the same as New York? 
 Answer. Exactly. It is sold on sample. 
 
ggO TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD 
 
 Question. How long did you say you were engaged in the grain busi- 
 ness in Milwaukee ¥ 
 
 Answer. From 1844 to 1868. 
 
 Question. How long have you been engaged in it here I 
 
 Answer. Five years. 
 
 Question. And you say you find no more difficulty from damage to 
 grain here than you did in Milwaukee ? 
 
 Answer. I do not have so much difficulty. At the same time I wish 
 to be understood that grain will spoil anywhere, no matter where it is, 
 if it is put in in large quantities in the winter time and held until the 
 germinating season. No grain will stand that in any place under some 
 circumstances. 
 
 Question. Why do you consider it safer here than North 1 
 
 Answer. It is for just these reasons that I speak of, that there are 
 more of these humid hours. It is not all day that these hours occur at 
 the North, nor is it so here. I have not known but two hours here with- 
 in the past six months of that kind of what we call humid atmosphere. 
 We have it up North more in the month of February. I recollect there 
 once of losing twelve thousand bushels of com in four clays in the 
 month of February. It was sold for 58 cents to a man, and he had 
 taken part of it away, and backed out because it had changed grade. 
 Those hours you all have experienced in the North or somewhere else— 
 when there is seemingly no air, and the perspiration comes outside and 
 stays on your skin. 
 
 Question. Have you been engaged in shipping wheat or corn to Eu- 
 rope from here 1 
 
 Answer. Very little on my own account, because we intended to con- 
 fine ourselves entirely to our elevator business. I did the same at the 
 North, and it gave better satisfaction than for an elevator-man to dabble 
 in shipments. 
 
 Question. If I remember, in glancing over this document, there is a 
 statement that usually your cargoes go out part grain and part cotton, 
 the cotton being placed on the grain. Is that true f 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; and in answer to your other question, in 1871 I 
 made a shipment in the hottest part of the summer, as a test, by steam 
 and by sail. The steam-craft paid a profit of $1,500; the sail- vessel, 
 about a profit of $700. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. Were they both shipped simultaneously ? 
 
 Answer. One was shipped on the 1st of July, and I think the other 
 about the 20th. 
 
 Question. What was the relative market value at the port of export 
 at that time ? 
 
 Answer. The value here was the same when it was shipped. 
 
 Question. What was the condition of the Liverpool market at the 
 time of the different arrivals '2 
 
 Answer. It was a little less. 
 
 Question. The sail was less ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; the sail was a little less, I think. It was 32s. for 
 sail and 33s. 6d. for the steam. 
 
 Question. Do you attribute the fact that the cargo by the steamship 
 brought 100 per cent, more than the other to the fact that the Liver- 
 pool market was so much lower on the occasion of its arrival ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; that caused the difference. 
 
 Question. It was not any objection either by sail or by steam 1 
 
 Answer. Both cargoes were in perfect order. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 861 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. What is the usual time from here to .Liverpool by steam ? 
 
 Answer. About twenty days. 
 
 Question. And by sail f 
 
 Answer. From thirty-rive to ninety days. For the past five years, 
 ] 868 or 18Q9, however, freights were from Wd. to 12d., and in 1871, when 
 this experiment was made, they were Wd. 
 
 By Mr. SHERMAN : 
 
 Question. Was that per bushel U 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; Wd. per bushel of sixty pounds. Freights here 
 are a little different from New York. Everything goes here on grain 
 at sixty pounds, and at New York they make a difference in the number 
 of pounds there is in a bushel. They take corn for a little less than 
 they would wheat per bushel. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS: 
 
 Question. Does the locality in which the grain is produced make any 
 difference as to its going through a perspiration here? That is to say, 
 will the extreme North and Missouri grain operate differently when it 
 comes here as to perspiration or climatic difficulties 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Explain that, if you please. 
 
 Answer. The farther north you go the more water there is in any 
 grain, and the farther south you go the less. That is the reason why 
 California wheat will go anywhere, over all. the world, at any time, 
 because there is no water in it; and, in fact, to grind it they have to 
 throw water in to moisten, or mix it with northern wheat. California 
 wheat, when you harvest it, sometimes lays out on the ground in the 
 sheaf four months before it is thrashed; and that grain is the dryest of 
 any in the world. Northern Texas, I have been told, produces grain . 
 almost like it. Corn, for instance, depends on the season that it is 
 harvested. There is more moisture in corn than in wheat. 
 
 In 1848, and I think perhaps your chairman may recollect it, one of 
 the first elevators was built at Chicago by Mr. Charles Beade. He put 
 two men there, and they filled up the warehouse with some sixty thou- 
 sand bushels of corn in the month of January, because they bought it 
 very low. In the month of February it began to smoke, and they 
 thought it was on fire. It smoked for thirty days, and the smoke all 
 went out. There was no way of handling it then, because all the ele- 
 vators were run by horse-power, and they had no facilities for handling 
 it over. Consequently, that grain smoked itself out. That is, it com- 
 menced heating with the immense moisture there was in it, and after it 
 got through smoking they found 4 feet on top on all the bins of corn 
 totally black and spoiled. When that was thrown off the balance was 
 found to be good grain, and that it would go anywhere at any season of 
 the year; but it had lost 20 per cent. And all new corn will do that 
 I know of, unless it is taken care of. ' _ 
 
 Question. State the effect on the two grains when it arrives here. I 
 ■understand you to say that there was a difference in the effect that the 
 climate had upon the northern and southern grain. 
 
 Answer. The one is dryer than the other. There is less moisture in 
 it. If a cargo of corn comes from the northern part of Illinois down 
 here early in the spring, there is more moisture in it than there is if it 
 comes from there in the summer time, because that corn is in store in 
 the winter, when it is frozen and full of ice, and stays there. Any time, 
 
862 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 generally after the 1st of December, com is frozen when it S^snito 
 the elevators up there, and it stays so until June. I have seen, in draw- 
 ing out bins that had been all winter in that way, that the iron rods 
 that went through the bins, when they were drawn out for, maybe a 
 minute, would be white with frost. Then, of course, they would dry off 
 and be wet. Now, that grain in that situation, unless it is handled and 
 dried, will spoil very quickly- When such grain comes here, or it has 
 got wet in barges leaking, in some shape, it has got to be dried. But 
 grain that comes here usually don't need any more drying than it does 
 north, for we see that corn shipped from Chicago in the spring— it is so 
 
 nearlv every year a large part of it is sold in New York, as it was 
 
 last season, for what they call steamer corn. It is quoted all the way 
 through from May to September as steamer corn. That corn sold for 
 40 cents a bushel, while good corn sold at 05 cents. Now, somebody 
 must have lost 24 cents a bushel. 
 
 Question. My question is to this point : There is a general impression 
 in the country, whether well-founded or not is another question, that 
 there are climatic difficulties here in the shipment of northern grain. 
 You having had experience, can you state whether you have experienced 
 any difficulty of that kind ; and, if so, to what extent ? 
 
 Answer. I have not experienced any at all; not so much, I mean to 
 say, as I did North, because we have had to handle it less here than we 
 did North. When grain is shipped from here, as in the North, we do 
 not have any handling at all. For instance, if it comes here, and I hold 
 it for twenty days before it is shipped, it will be shipped in as good con- 
 dition as when it came in; and in the North there is scarcely ever a 
 cargo held in store twenty days from March till the close of navigation, 
 for the reason that I am going to state. It is brought in under inspection, 
 and if a hundred thousand bushels comes in a day, for ten days, of 
 course there are a million bushels there. Now, in that ten days they 
 ' must begin to ship some to get the elevator clear. The first that comes 
 in goes out. The elevator men have a responsibility to take care of 
 this grain, and they must deliver the same grain that they take in. 
 They are taking care of themselves, and if you call for grain to day, 
 that you have bought to-day, supposing it is fresh, you go to the ele- 
 vator and you get what they choose to give you ; for instance, grain that 
 came in ten days ago. 
 
 Question. Still that is the system of elevating. That is not the effect 
 of the climate on the grain ? 
 
 Answer. That is what helps to take care of it, by keeping it moving. 
 
 Question. But that is just as liable to be at the one place as the other, 
 and does not come to the question yet. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. We are now at the 27th of December. Ten thousand bushels 
 of grain arriving to-day at Chicago must be put in the warehouse, must 
 it not, as navigation to the New York port is closed 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Ten thousand bushels of grain arriving to-day at Saint 
 Louis can be transmitted to New Orleans at once ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. And take ship and go to Liverpool? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. It arrives there, say, the 1st of February ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 863 
 
 Question. When can the ten thousand bushels of grain in Chicago be 
 released ? 
 
 Answer. By the middle of next April, perhaps. 
 
 Question. Having lain in the elevator up to the 1st of April, it will 
 arrive, when shipped, say about the 15th of May, to Liverpool ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. What are the relative chauces of condition as to the ten 
 thousand bushels of grain sent from Saint Louis by this route and 
 arriving at Liverpool on the 1st of February, and the grain arriving 
 from Chicago by the 15th of May, as to the condition ? 
 
 Answer. It will be better, because there is no frost in it when it starts, 
 and when it gets to New York, on the canal, the frost is coming out, 
 and, as I said before, in that warm place, of course under the roof of the 
 barge it is shipped in, it has a tendency to sweat. 
 
 Question. Do you mean to say that the grain that would come from 
 Saint Louis by the way of New Orleans, the probabilities are that it 
 would arrive in better condition than the grain housed in Chicago all 
 winter and sent by way of New York ? 
 
 Answer. A great deal better. 
 
 Question. What do you base that on ? 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Question. That is not the point. You have supposed that one would 
 come here and go off immediately, and the other would lie there all 
 winter. But the point is this : treat them both alike, for the grain that 
 comes to Chicago might the next day go on by rail. I want to know if 
 the grain is treated exactly the same'; whether there are climatic diffi- 
 culties here that the North does nq<fc have to contend with, and if there 
 are any, I want to know what they are ? 
 
 Answer. You wish to know if oce grain is treated the same at Saint 
 Paul and goes right straight through? 
 
 Questiou. Yes ; one going to New York to be shipped to England 
 and the 5ther here to go to England ? 
 
 Answer. There would not be any difference. But whatever, there 
 would be would be here, because it is a little drier and a little warmer. 
 If it was the same temperature there would not be any difference. It 
 is brought here, however, in these barges, that serve as driers, all the 
 way from Saint Louis. 
 
 Question. State whether grain shipped at Saint Paul is necessarily 
 transferred at Saint Louis, or whether it comes here in the same con- 
 veyance in which it started from Saint Paul 1 
 
 Answer. It can come in the same conveyance. 
 
 Question. What is the usual course that is pursued 1 
 
 Answer. It is usual to change at Saint Louis, for the reason that 
 small crafts have to come down the river, because there is but little 
 water there over the rapids. Below Saint Louis there is more water, 
 and a larger craft can take it, and consequently it is brought cheaper. 
 
 Question. What would the transfer from one boat to the other at 
 Saint Louis cost ? 
 
 Answer. A cent a bushel. . 
 
 Question. What would be the cost here to transfer it from boat to 
 
 vessel ? 
 Answer. One cent a bushel. . , 
 
 Question. What is the freight to-day from Saint Paul to Saint Louis 
 
 and from Saint Louis here f In other words, what would the freight be 
 
 from the two points here f 
 
864 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Answer. To-day and for the past month there has been no transporta- 
 tion excepting by rail from Saint Paul to Saint Louis. 
 
 Question. Why not ? 
 
 Answer. The river is frozen up. The Diamond Joe undertook to come 
 down with his tow-boat and six barges, and he got frozen up about the 
 20th or 22d of last month. 
 
 Question. But when the route is open what is the usual freight? 
 
 Answer. The freight from Saint Paul to Saint Louis, I think, is 10 or 
 12 cents. When I was there in 1868, managing the elevator, they paid 
 10 cents and sometimes 11 cents. 
 
 Question. Do you speak now of per bushel f 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; Captain Davidson, the largest shipper on the upper 
 river, said if they were making 4 feet of water on the upper river, he 
 ■would bring it down from Saint Paul here for 12 cents. 
 
 Question. What is the freight from Saint Louis here ? 
 
 Answer. That varies from 7 to 14 cents a bushel. 
 
 Question. What is it now ? 
 
 Answer. Now it is 25 cents a hundred, which makes 12 .cents. When 
 there is 8 feet of water from Saint Louis here, it is brought for 7 or 8 
 cents. 
 
 Question. What is the largest vessel which can now come to your 
 port ? How much water can she draw, taking the usual regular move- 
 ment? 
 
 Answer. Do you mean up the river ? 
 
 Question. I mean for clearing the port for Europe or elsewhere ? 
 
 Answer. The largest vessel, I think, is about three thousand tons. 
 
 Question. How much water would she draw ? 
 
 Answer. Twenty-six feet. 
 
 Question. Have you 26 feet of water here ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. Do you mean how much water they would draw if 
 they were loaded ? 
 
 Question. No, sir. I ask you how much water you have on your 
 bar? * 
 
 Answer. There is about 19 feet now, I think. It varies at different 
 times from 18 to 19 feet. Sometimes it is down to 17 feet. 
 
 By Mr. Conover : 
 
 Question. At low tide ? 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Have you the only elevator here ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; there is only one elevator on shore. We have a 
 floating elevator. 
 
 Question. When was that shore elevator built ? 
 
 Answer. In 1868. 
 
 Question. Was that the first elevator in New Orleans ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; that was the first elevator built here. 
 
 Question. What was the mode of transferring grain before that 
 elevator was erected? 
 
 Answer. Before that elevator was built they brought grain down in 
 sacks from up the river, and landed it on the levee, and niggers took it 
 and carried it into a warehouse, and carried it back afterward and put 
 it aboard ship on their backs. 
 
 Question. What proportion of the grain is brought now in bulk and 
 what proportion in sack ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD 865 
 
 Answer. Do you mean now ? 
 
 Question. Yes, sir. 
 
 Answer. There is about three times as much brought in sacks as 
 there is in bulk. 
 
 Question. That brought in sacks does not go through your elevator, 
 then ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. That goes where ? 
 
 Answer. That is for home consumption. 
 
 Question. Is that in bulk for exportation ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. How much do you charge for elevating ? 
 
 Answer. We charge for taking out of the barge and into the elevator, 
 and weighing it and taking it back into the ship, with twenty days' 
 storage, 2 cents a bushel. We charge in the floating elevator, to go 
 alongside of a ship and take the barge along and take it out of the 
 barge and weigh it and put it into the ship, 1 cent a bushel. 
 
 Question. Suppose it is less than twenty days in store ? 
 
 Answer. We' charge just the same ; and if it is one day it is the 
 same. 
 
 Question. Suppose it is over twenty days ? 
 
 Answer. Then it is half a cent for every ten days. These prices are 
 the same as those at Chicago, Milwaukee, and Saint Louis. 
 
 Question. What is the longest time you have held wheat or corn in 
 store? 
 
 Answer. Four months. 
 
 Question. What months f 
 
 Answer. The months of April, May, June, and July. 
 
 Question. You keep each shipment separate 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; we keep the identical corn separate. 
 
 Question. During what months is there the greatest heating 1 
 
 Answer. The greatest heating is in the months of May and June. 
 
 By the CHAIRMAN : 
 Question. Of both wheat and corn 1 
 Answer. Yes, sir; it is during the germinating season. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. What kind of wheat do you get here chiefly— fall or spring 
 wheat 1 
 
 Answer. Spring-wheat. 
 
 Question. Are the vessels that carry off the corn and wheat brought 
 up* alongside of your warehouse? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; unless they are to be loaded off the floating eleva- 
 tor, and then we go wherever they are. 
 
 Question. And you load them directly from your warehouse into the 
 vessel ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; the same as is done North. 
 
 Question. What cost is paid by the shipper to get that wheat trans- 
 ferred from the vessel which brings it here to the vessel which carries it 
 away except what is paid to you ? 
 
 Answer. Nothing. . 
 
 Question. Are there no port charges here of any kind i 
 
 Answer. Not that the shipper pays. 
 
 Question. Who pays the port charges ? 
 
 Answer. The ship. 
 55 T s 
 
ggg TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Question. Which ship— 3he exporting ship, the ship which goes 
 abroad ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. , 
 
 Question. That is included in the freight, however, I suppose.* 
 
 Answer. I suppose they collect freight enough to pay that. 
 
 Question. What are these port charges in New Orleans paid, by 
 foreign or domestic vessels 1 t . „■„ •„■ 
 
 Answer. I am not so familiar with that as Captain Miller will be, and 
 he can give you the details. 
 
 Question. How is your elevator tax— what is the valuation upon the 
 elevator in proportion to its cost ? 
 
 Answer. It is nothing like its cost. 
 
 Question. About how much? Is it one-half, one-fourth, four-fifths f 
 State as near as you can. I do not single out your property, but I wish 
 to get at the general average of the valuation of property in New Or- 
 leans to its cost or salable value. 
 
 Answer. I think as a general thing property is taxed here for more 
 than it would sell at auction. 
 
 Question. What is the rate of taxation in New Orleans ? 
 
 Answer. I think the municipal and State tax amounts to 5f per cent. 
 
 Question. What is the rate of interest in New Orleans ? 
 
 Answer. I think it is 8 per cent. ; that is, bank interest. 
 
 Question. Is that the legal rate or the current rate 1 
 
 Answer. The legal rate. 
 
 A Bystander. Our legal rate is 5 per cent. ; that is conventional. 
 Captain Higby does not use the conventional term. 
 
 Question. What charges are paid by the vessel which receives the 
 wheat ? 
 
 Mr. Higbv. We put it into the hold, and if they elect to have us 
 " trim" it, we " trim " it for $2.. 
 
 Question. What is that ? 
 
 Answer. Shoveling it away into the hold. We run the grain into the 
 hold and of course it has to be shoveled away, and if they ask the 
 elevator company to do that we do it for $2 a thousand. The charge 
 North is $4 a thousand. 
 
 Question. Are there any other charges ? 
 
 Answer. No others. One thing I wish to state about those charges to 
 the ship. The State and the municipal authorities granted this elevator 
 company the privilege which no other corporation or individuals have. 
 They grant them the right to receive ships to load and unload into their 
 "warehouse free of any charge; so that a ship that comes from Liver- 
 pool to the elevator company's wharf and unloads,, and loads up there 
 and goes away, does not pay a cent to anybody. 
 
 Question. Are you the only warehouse company chartered here 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Can any other be chartered under the terms of your agree- 
 ment? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; I do not think that any others could get that same 
 privilege. 
 
 Question. Have you a monopoly, then "? 
 
 Answer. We have a monopoly of that part of the business ; that is to 
 say, we have a monopoly of that part of it which does not amount to 
 anything. We never have had a vessel come to that elevator and unload 
 and go away, with the exception of six ships, I think, in five years ; but 
 if a vessel comes there and unloads a load of sugar, or if she comes and 
 takes a load of corn and goes away, she has been to some other city 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 867 
 
 wharf, and there' they catch her ; so that our arrangement does not 
 amount to very much unless they come directly there to load and un- 
 load, for they have to pay the city. 
 
 Question. Is there anything in your contract or charter, or your ar- 
 rangement with the city or State, to prevent any other capitalist from 
 building a warehouse ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; anybody is free to come. 
 
 Question. Would they have the same advantages in all respects as 
 you have? 
 
 Answer. They would probably, with that exception, and that exception 
 is worth nothing to us. 
 
 Question. State that exception again. 
 
 Answer. We have the privilege granted us to take in ships and 
 they are not to pay city wharfage while at our wharf. For instance, if 
 you send a ship from England, or any other foreign port' to our wharf 
 to take in a load of our or anybody else's stuff, and she comes and has 
 cargo in, she may unload that into our warehouse and take in cargo 
 and go away and she pays nothing to the city, and they won't ask her 
 for anything. 
 
 Question. Do the other transporters have wharves as you have? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; there is not another one in the city. The city owns 
 the whole of the wharves up to our elevator and a little beyond that. 
 
 Question. Does the city rent those wharves ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. It was given, it seems, to the city, by some munifi- 
 cent gentleman here as a public property, and the city built these 
 wharves, and the ships coming to them they tax them wharfage for 
 that privilege. 
 
 Question. They do not rent them but levy a tax for the use of the 
 wharves 1 
 
 Answer. That is it. 
 
 Question. Do not individual firms or corporations own certain spaces 
 on these wharves ? 
 
 Answer. Not a foot. 
 
 Question. Is not that very unusual ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. i , 
 
 Question. Is there any other case in your knowledge of that kind 1 
 
 Answer. I do not think there is in the United States. 
 
 Question. What was the origin of that ? 
 
 Answer. It is of French origin. This man gave this property. I have 
 been told that several millions have been sold between this and the 
 levee to build on— that the city have sold these lots. 
 
 Question. Is there any difficulty, so far as you have heard or know, 
 about the city selling parts of these wharves to different persons to 
 create competition ? 
 
 Answer. They cannot sell or lease. 
 
 Question. Why not? , , ... 
 
 Answer. Because it was given to them as a donation to the public 
 for a free landing, as the donor presumed, I suppose. 
 
 Question. Could not the city lease the wharves to individuals I 
 
 Mr. West. Undoubtedly they could. 
 
 By the Chairman, (referring to document presented to the com- 
 
 03 Question. I notice in this report of the New Orleans Chamber of 
 Commerce, Exhibit M and O, showing actual expense of transporting 
 from Saint Louis to New Orleans by barges and by steamers. Did you 
 procure these figures ? 
 
ggg TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Answer. I did. • 
 
 Question. From what were they taken i 
 
 Answer. The barge figures were taken from the Future City tow-boat, 
 which has been built the past year, and their cost was put down by the 
 ao-ent of the Mississippi Transportation Company. 
 
 Question. Were they taken from the books of the tow-boat company f 
 
 Answer. Not from the books, but they were taken from the agent as 
 he told me their cost, and this was made out in conformity with the re- 
 quest of yourself, which was made and sent on. 
 
 Question. You have no doubt of the accuracy of these figures, I sup- 
 pose? 
 
 Answer. So far as I know, those are the exact amounts they pay for 
 wages, cost of ships, interest, and expense. 
 
 By Mr. West: 
 
 Question. How did the wages compare in this estimate of. yours with 
 the wages that were represented to have been paid on the canals run- 
 ning through New York State ? 
 
 Answer. The engineer's report of the canal-barge show that two en- 
 gineers are put down as working for $1.50 apiece, or $3 a day. 
 
 Question. That is, $3 for the two? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. Now, they pay here $3 for one and $5 for the 
 other. That would be $8. 
 
 Question. Do you believe that engineers can be obtained at $1.50 a 
 day to run boats at the North ? 
 
 Answer. When I was in business in Cooperstown, N. Y., we used 
 to pay there quite as high wages as we are paying here ; and I do not 
 know of any engineers that are working for any less than $3 a day in 
 the North ; and more we pay $5. I have always paid our head engi- 
 neer $5. Those are the figures that the agent gave me as compared 
 with the figures on the canal-boat. 
 
 Question. Did he give these, using the same prices paid on the canal- 
 boat or prices actually paid by themselves here ? 
 
 Answer. These prices are actual prices paid here. The canal-boat 
 prices were not half as much as these. For instance, a captain there 
 was put down at $2, and here it is $5. Then their men were put down 
 at $1 a day, and here $1.50. The cook was put down at 75 cents, and 
 here it is $1.50. 
 
 Question. Do you know where they get their coal so cheap? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; from Saint Louis, or just below there. They tow 
 it down with their coal-barges right from the mines. 
 
 Question. How are the facts with reference to the John F. Toll, on 
 page 34, obtained ? 
 
 Answer. I obtained them iu the same way, from their agent here of 
 the steamer. 
 
 Question. Is she one of the largest steamers ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; she is a freight-steamer. 
 
 Question. That estimate was made upon a full load, of course ? 
 
 Answer. It was made upon her full tonnage— just what she carried. 
 
 Question. Based on the actual amount carried and the actual cost 
 paid ? 
 
 Answer. Precisely. The obstruction at the mouth of the Mississippi 
 is caused by these bars. In their natural state they are 14 feet, while 
 the natural bars of Chicago and Milwaukee were 7 feet only when I 
 first went there. When they were 7 feet up there the' freights were 
 three times as much as they are now when they have 12£ feet. I be- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 869 
 
 & l \j Te V^ S J lme within two or three inches o 11 * 11 © Saint Clair 
 nats. jnow, at U feet, the ships that come here used to come here 
 loaded with cotton, and they got along very well. • 
 
 Examination of Capt. Albion K. Millee, agent for the State Line 
 bteamship Company. Examined upon the subject of ocean tonnage 
 and the condition m which grain shipped from New Orleans arrives in 
 .Liverpool. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. How many ships does your line consist of? 
 
 Answer. Of six ships altogether. We have three running to this 
 port. The average tonnage is 2,500 tons. They run to Liverpool and 
 Bordeaux. 
 
 Question. How long have they been rusting ? 
 Answer. About eighteen months. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. Wh6re is your line owned ? 
 
 Answer. In Scotland and Great Britain, principally. There is very 
 little of the stock taken here. 'During my experience in business we 
 have shipped here, on our ships, about 220,000 bushels of corn, and 
 have never, in any instance, heard any complaint of any damage what- 
 ever. But, on the contrary, it has landed in as fine condition as when 
 it was shipped. 
 
 Question. When you say corn, do you mean corn, strictly speaking f ' 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir ; corn — Indian corn. 
 
 Question. No wheat ? 
 
 Answer. We have shipped no wheat as yet; though I have in my 
 capacity as a ship-master, previous to the war, carried wheat from here 
 to England ; but we have not shipped any upon our lines since starting. 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. Did it ever appear to be prejudiced particularly by the 
 voyage? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; I had experience as a merchant in Liverpool for 
 some three years. We had a number of ships consigned to us from 
 San Francisco. Some of them were one hundred and sixty and one 
 hundred and seventy days at sea, with full cargoes of wheat. . I have 
 never known an instance of any damage, although passing through 
 two tropical and two frigid' climates during that passage. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Is grain shipped by you in bulk in your vessels ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. What care do you take to give it air ? 
 
 Answer. We have the ordinary ship's ventilators. Perhaps there 
 are three or four ventilators. They are about from one to two feet in 
 diameter through the decks, and they project above the decks five or 
 six feet, and sometimes higher if they go through the midship section. 
 
 Question. Do you aid your ventilators by steam-power in any way ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. Just by the motion of the vessel ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; it passes down just forward and goes aft, or vice 
 versa. It depends on the wind at sea. 
 
 Question. Do you store your grain in sections or in one bulk ? 
 
 Answer. Generally in two sections entirely. We divide it nearly 
 
870 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 equally forward and aft. These steamers have water-tight compart- 
 ments. We make 25,000 or 30,000 bushels iu one portion ot tne snip 
 and an equal quantity iu the other. We generally distribute the weight 
 in loading. • . . , 
 
 Question. But this distribution is not to aid ventilation, but simply 
 for convenience in loading the vessel ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. And for safety ? 
 ' Answer. Tes, sir. . 
 
 Question. What is the depth of corn on your vessel when it is loaded ? 
 
 Answer. It depends on the quantity. Our ships are about 24 or 25 
 feet hold ; if we load up to the second deck that would be about 17 or 18 
 feet. On the lower hold it would be about 10 or 12 feet, perhaps, in 
 depth. 
 
 Question. The whole decks are divided clear through with stories or 
 holds? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; our steamers are double-decked. There are in 
 some instances three decks, or partly three decks. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. Do you receipt for grain when you receive it here to be 
 delivered in condition, or what is your custom in that regard 1 
 
 Answer. Do you mean as to the terms of shipment ? 
 
 Question. Yes, sir. 
 
 Answer. We agree to deliver it in like good order and condition that 
 we receive it by the terms of the bill of lading. We are bound to do 
 so, or else we are subject to damage in case of losses. 
 
 Question. What proportion, if any, of grain do you have offered to 
 you that- you cannot receive on account of condition 1 
 
 Answer. I have uever heard of any instance of that kind. 
 
 Question. You have never refused any grain owing to its condition ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; I never had occasion to. 
 
 Question. Do your ships come to the wharves here or do you have to 
 lay below and lighter down ? . 
 
 Answer. They come right to the wharves. 
 
 Question. How much water do they draw on an average 1 
 
 Answer. On an average about 18 feet. Sometimes we are obliged to 
 load to 16£ or 17 feet, owing to the condition of the bar. We govern 
 ourselves by that. We could load them to 21 or 22 feet provided we 
 had water. 
 . Question. Would it be more profitable to you ? 
 
 Answer. Yery much so. We are obliged to come back half-loaded 
 sometimes. Our cargoes from the other side are all heavy cargoes. 
 Consequently we cannot take as much as the ships can carry. We can 
 only load to a certain draught ; otherwise we should incur the expense 
 of lighting her. I have in several instances been oblighed to lighter a 
 cargo of iron at the bar. 
 
 Question. Would it enable you to ship grain from here to Liverpool, 
 or bring tonnage back at a less cost to the- owners if the bar was 25 
 feet, say "? 
 
 Answer. The cost of a sailing-ship would be the same ; but her 
 freights would be more remunerative if we were enabled to load. It 
 costs the same to sail the ship in ballast as with a cargo. 
 
 Qu'estiou. I understand that; but my question is whether the freights 
 would, in point of fact, if you had, say, 25 feet of water, be less between 
 the.two points than they are now. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 871 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; freight would be less from the fact that we could 
 depend on having the back freight to help us out on the voyage. If we 
 had full cargoes back we would be willing to take our outward cargoes 
 at a less rate. 
 
 Question. What per cent, do you estimate that would be ? 
 
 Answer. Of what do you mean ? 
 
 Question. In saving in freight. 
 
 Answer. We estimate that it would be fully 25 or 30 per cent. We 
 would be able to carry freight that much less if we had a sufficient 
 depth of water. 
 
 Question. Would 25 feet be sufficient? 
 
 Answer. Hardly. 
 
 Question. What would be the best deptli ? 
 
 Answer. We ought to have at least 27 or 28 feet. We have steamers 
 coming here which, if loaded to their full capacity, would draw fully 25 
 feet. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. To make this port one of universal instead of exceptional 
 resort, do you consider it desirable to increase the draught of water at 
 the bar? 
 
 Answer. Most assuredly I do. 
 
 Question. Do you think the ship-building- interests of the world, in 
 constructing vessels, would more likely construct them on an average 
 of greater draught of water than would be admissible in the present 
 condition of the bar if this improvement was carried out? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; I know we would do it in our case, and I know it 
 applies to all other ship-owners. We are obliged now to build ships at a 
 certain draught ; and then at that we are not able to load at the full ca- 
 pacity. It costs no more, comparatively, to sail a steamer of 2,500 or 
 2,600 tons than it does to sail one of 2,000 tons. We have a case in point 
 in our own line of ships. One of our ships is 600 tons larger than the 
 ■others. We sail her with the same number of men. That makes the 
 same amount of wages and provisions. There is no difference in the 
 sailing of that vessel except some four or five tons of coal. 
 
 Question. Do you know anything about the disaster to the steamship 
 Memphis, here, last summer ? 
 
 Answer. I have some knowledge of that. But Captain Weeks, who 
 is the agent of the ship, is present. 
 
 Question. Are you familiar with the port charges here ? 
 . Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Are you familiar with the port charges in the city of JNew 
 
 York? 
 
 Answer. Comparatively. I am not fully familiar with the steam-port 
 •charges but I have a memorandum from there lately which shows me 
 that the charges are really in favor of New Orleans. 
 
 Question. That is, a steamship coming to this port to load is not sub- 
 jected to quite as much port charge as she would in going to New 
 
 York? 
 
 Answer. That is it, sir. 
 
 Question There is an impression abroad that the port charges here 
 amount to an embargo to the vessel coming here. What is the nature 
 of that charge ? 
 
 Answer. That applies more to sailing-vessels than to steamers, owing 
 to the towing charges, which we generally avoid. 
 
 Question. Then if you have a great draught of water that will make 
 
872 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 this port one of universal resort to steamships, they will have no com- 
 plaint to make on account of port charges ? 
 
 Answer. No sir : I think not. Our wharfage dues are tolerably rea- 
 sonable. Our principal charges here for a steamer is wharfage dues ;. 
 pilotage and other charges are merely nominal— quarantine-fees, harbor- 
 masters, &c. . 
 
 Question. Are the wharfage dues less here than m New York ! 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; I think they are, and pilotage is less. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. What are the names of your vessels 1 
 
 Answer. The Louisiania, the Minnesota, and the Alabama. 
 
 Question. Which is the medium vessel ? 
 
 Answer. The Minnesota. 
 
 Question. What charges do you pay to any one in Louisiana or "New 
 Orleans, from the time you enter the outer port till the time you land 
 here ? 
 
 Answer. That depends a great deal on the nature of the cargo we 
 take. If we take an entire cargo of cotton the charges are a great deal 
 more. . 
 
 Question. Take the cargo of cotton, I suppose as you approach the 
 outer bar you then have to take a pilot on board ? 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir. 
 
 Question. How much pilotage do you pay from that point to New 
 Orleans 1 
 
 Answer. Pilotage from that point comes on an average to about $110 
 or $120. 
 
 Question. Does the amount of charge depend on the tonnage of the 
 vessel? i . 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. Upon what ? 
 
 Answer. With sailing-vessels it is so much a foot. With steamers we 
 have an arrangement to pay a certain sum without regard to her 
 draught. 
 
 Question. Is that a special arrangement ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir, it is; without regard to her tonnage. 
 
 Question. Are yon able to tell us what would be the charges upon a 
 ship of 1,000 or 1,500 tons f . 
 
 Answer. It would depend upon her draught. 
 
 Question. Then there are uncertain conditions in regard to that? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. What is the average pilotage on a ship under sail ? 
 
 Answer. On a ship drawing 18 feet I think it is about $3.50 a foot, or 
 $4, up to 16 feet, or about that. I have not the exact figures in my 
 mind. 
 
 Question. How much would that be on the vessel ? 
 
 Answer. Do you mean on the whole vessel f 
 
 Question. Yes, sir. 
 
 Answer. Say, at $4 a foot, and she drew 20 feet, that would be $80. 
 
 Question. It is upon the draught of water ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. You have to pay a hundred and some odd dollars for pilot- 
 age. What other charges have you to pay t 
 
 Answer. There are the wharfage , dues. 
 
 Question. Dq you pay anything_§x.cept the pilotage when you arrive 
 at the port t 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 873 
 
 Answer. Nothing except the quarantine charge during the season. 
 The wharfage charge is 20 cents per registered ton. 
 
 Question. How much is the tonnage of your vessel, the Minnesota? 
 
 Answer. About two thousand tons. 
 
 Question. That would be $400 ! 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir. 
 
 Question. How long do you lie at the wharf? 
 
 Answer. We are allowed to he sixty days on that charge. 
 
 Question. What is the ordinary length of your stay 1 
 
 Answer. We are seldom here over seven or eight days ; sometimes 
 ten days ; but on average eight days. 
 
 Question. To whom is that charge paid ? 
 
 Answer. To the city. The city owns the wharves. 
 
 Question. What other charges do you have to pay 1 
 
 Answer. There are no other charges excepting what are nominal, 
 such as harbor-masters' or warden fees. Those we incur in other ports. 
 Our principal charges are compressing cotton and the expense of stow- 
 ing to stevedores. The charges on grain are very reasonable, being 
 two or three dollars on the thousand bushels. 
 
 Question. Do you pay any tax to the city or State on a vessel arriv- 
 ing in that way ? 
 
 Answer. We pay a yearly tonnage-due of 30 cents a ton every twelve 
 months. That is the tonnage-tax of the United States. 
 
 Question. And that applies, of course, to all ports 1 « 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. There/ is no special tax paid to the State of Louisiana or 
 the city of New Orleans ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. As to the men who load her, the stevedores, do you pay a 
 fixed rate f 
 
 • Answer. It is a fixed rate according to the nature of the goods ; so 
 much a bail, so much for a bushel, or so much a barrel. 
 
 Question. Is that fixed by law or only by custom ? 
 
 Answer. It is governed by the same rules which govern labor. 
 
 Question. By competition ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Is there any competition in that kind of goods or is there 
 an organization which controls it ? 
 
 Answer. There is quite a competition in that kind of business. 
 
 Question. Is there any organization of these stevedores which fixes 
 the price ? 
 
 Answer. There is no organization among the employers. There is an 
 organization existing among the employes as applying to cotton, and, in 
 some instances, to daily labor. 
 
 Question. Are the rates above the pay of ordinary common labor ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; for cotton, but not for corn. 
 
 Question. How much do you pay a day for cotton ? 
 
 Answer. The laboring screwmen get about $6 a day. 
 
 Question. Is that compressed after it goes on ship-board ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; it is compressed before. They use jack-screws for 
 squeezing it into the ships to enconomize all the space possible. 
 
 Question. Any other power ? 
 
 Answer. The common jack-screw. _ 
 
 Question. What power do they use for compressing it tor the ship ? 
 
 Answer. Steam-power. 
 
 Question. That is done in this process ? 
 
874 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. . 
 
 Question. What other charges are paid by you ? What I wish to get 
 at is the entire expense of the local charges. 
 
 Answer. Do you mean average expenses on the steamer 1 
 
 Question. Yes, sir ; and if there are extraordinary expenses, what 
 are their nature ? 
 
 Answer. There is nothing beyond that unless we incur lighterage and 
 sometimes towage at the bar. If we stick on the bar I have paid as 
 high as $3,000 on one ship. 
 
 Question. Do you know the expenses of towing an ordinary ship 
 from the outer bar to New Orleans ; say a ship of about a thousand 
 tons? 
 
 Answer. One of the agents of the tow-boat company is present, and 
 I think he can give you those points better than I can. 
 
 Question. Is the business in which you are engaged a growing busi- 
 ness? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Do you think you can compete with the New York market 
 in transporting? 
 
 Answer. We can undoubtedly if we have the water. That is the 
 grand drawback at present. 
 
 Question. You mean the water at the outer bar ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. We are very often offered a full cargo of corn 
 when we cannot take more than half a cargo for fear of the water. 
 
 Question. Will the construction of the proposed Fort Saint Philip 
 Canal meet the demand of your trade ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; providing we can get 27 or 28 feet of water. 
 
 Question. What percentage would it increase the capacity of vessels 
 like yours ? 
 
 Answer. We should build ships of 3,000 tons instead of 2,000 tons or 
 2,500 tons, providing we were sure of plenty of water. 
 
 Question. What are your present charges for transporting corn to 
 Liverpool ? 
 
 Answer. The cost of freight from here is something like New York. 
 It is governed by demand and supply, and is very fluctuating. On an 
 average, since I have been here, it has been from 9d. to lOd. Some- 
 times it is 12d. or lid., and sometimes only Id. or &d. 
 
 Question. At what rate could you transport corn from New Orleans 
 to Liverpool, with the power of entering the channel through a canal 
 drawing 25 or 27 feet, and relieved from the present system of trouble 
 on the bar, &c, and with the steady business likely to be produced by 
 building that canal ? 
 
 Answer. From 8d. to lOd, providing we had facilities for loading as 
 deep as. we require. It would pay us very well. But we have to make 
 about the same preparation in the time used to prepare for 50,000 
 bushels as we would for 70,000 or 80,000. 
 
 Question. Are you troubled here with the warehousing system ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; most of our corn goes from floatiug elevators. A 
 barge comes alongside of a ship, and it is put in by a floating elevator. 
 
 Question. Don't you have difficulty in waiting and being detained 
 here for a load? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; not as a rule. We are generally engaged previous 
 to the arrival of the ship ; so that it is on hand here for her when she 
 arrives. 
 
 Question. The barges are brought down with a view to meet vour 
 •regular trips ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 875 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Have you ever had any difficulty in transferring the corn 
 from the barges to the ship ? 
 
 Answer. Not the slightest. 
 
 Question. I mean as to the condition of the grain in the barges. 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; I have never had any difficulty whatever. 
 
 Question. Have you ever detected any bad grain or imperfect grain ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. Have you ever had any reclamation made upon you for 
 injury or damage to corn ? 
 
 Answer. None whatever. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. How would you load the Minnesota to most advantage if 
 you were to send her from here with cotton and corn 1 
 
 Answer. Do you mean at the present draught of water 1 
 
 Question. Yes, sir. 
 
 Answer. I should not be able to take more than 25,000 bushels of 
 corn. 
 
 Question. How much cotton 1 
 
 Answer. The balance of cotton— about 2,000 bales. 
 
 Question. Supposing you had that ship in New York, and would load; 
 her there with a similar cargo, irrespective of draught of water, would it 
 cost you any more to put that grain on board here and to put the cotton 
 aboard here for your stevedores' charges than it would in New York ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; no more. 
 
 Question. Would it cost you any less ? 
 
 Answer. I think the grain charges are even a little higher at New 
 York. I am not quite sure about that point. 
 
 Question. And the cotton charges ? 
 
 Answer. They are about the same. 
 
 A Bystander. Four dollars a thousand bushels is charged on grain 
 in New York. 
 
 The Witness. That is $2.50 more than the charges here. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. As affecting the common idea that the port charges of New 
 Orleans are exorbitant and in excess of New York, you are of the opin- 
 ion that, if anything, the difference is a little in favor of New Orleans, on 
 steamships ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; I think so. 
 
 Question. It has been proposed by Federal legislation to put the 
 channel at the mouth of the Mississippi, which was in course of exca- 
 vation, under the charge of the Secretary of War, so that he might 
 control the movements of commerce, the incoming and the outgoing 
 of steamers, with a view of preventing interruptions that have been 
 alleged as against the tow-boat interests. Have you any opinion in 
 regard to that as to how it would affect your interest, or whether it 
 would be beneficial or prejudicial to the interests of commerce? 
 
 Answer. I think that some head at that bar to prevent blockading 
 would be beneficial. The trouble has been, heretofore, with masters of 
 steamers and ships, when there was a bad bar and the ships which 
 were outside wished to come in, and those inside wished to get out, 
 would insist upon having their ships put on the bar with the object of 
 endeavoring to get over it at improper and imprudent times, thereby 
 causing the matter to become worse. There has been a lack of control 
 in that respect. It seems to me that anything to remedy that evil 
 
876 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 would be a benefit. I, for one, would be willing to await my turn there 
 to get a chance to get out. 
 
 Question. Through such imprudences has there been any serious loss 
 to commerce ? 
 
 Answer. There has been a great loss to ship-owners and snippers by 
 ships being detained through these blockades. 
 
 Question. Then, do you believe that if some one authority was com- 
 petent to dictate the movements of vessels at that time, if that au- 
 thority was properly exercised, it would be to the benefit of com- 
 merce ? 
 
 Answer. I do. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Will there be any practical difficulty in loading your vessels 
 in the Mississippi Eiver, inside the Fort Saint Philip Canal, without 
 going to New Orleans ? 
 
 Answer. It could be loaded at the canal itself by elevators, or by 
 railway communication from the city even. 
 
 Question. Then, if the charges at New Orleans should be too high, 
 there would be no difficulty in establishing a competition anywhere be- 
 tween the Fort Saint Philip Canal and New Orleans ? 
 
 Answer. Not any. 
 
 Question. That would be effected, then, in case of any unreasonable 
 charges 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. The proposition is, I believe, in case the canal is 
 completed, to put wharves or jettees at each side, and a ship could lay 
 there or in the canal itself, provided tbat there was width enough ; and 
 she could take in full cargoes from the barges, because there would be 
 no more trouble to tow the barges down there than to leave them at this 
 point. 
 
 Question. But there would still be an inducement to . come to New 
 Orleans for the return cargo, as a matter of course ? 
 
 Answer. O, yes ; of course. 
 
 Question. But there would be no difficulty in evading port charges or 
 wharfage, or anything of that ' kind, by taking your load for export 
 there? 
 
 Answer. A full cargo of corn could be taken there from barges, and 
 avoid these levee dues in this city. 
 
 By Mr. DAyis : 
 
 Question. You spoke a moment ago of probably four hundred dollars 
 being the charge for a vessel here at the wharf. 'Does it make a differ- 
 ence whether she is loaded or not? 
 
 Answer. She is paid for by the registered tonnage. 
 
 Question. Empty or loaded she has to pay that ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. You spoke of coal. What fuel do you use ? 
 
 Answer. Coal. 
 
 Question. From where 1 
 
 Answer. In some instances we bring a surplus from England, of the 
 Welsh coal ; but more often we obtain for the homeward voyage the 
 Pittsburgh coal. 
 
 Question. What does that cost you per ton 1 
 
 Answer. About $7 or $8. 
 
 Question. On board 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; delivered on board. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 877 
 
 Question. How does it compare in quality with the Welsh coal which 
 you bring from England ? 
 
 Answer. We find very little difference. The Welsh coal makes a 
 little better steam. This makes very good steam, this coal from Pitts- 
 burgh. 
 
 Question. What is the relative expense or cost of the two coals ? 
 
 Answer. At present coals are a little cheaper here than in. England. 
 The colliers there have been on a strike for several months, which, has 
 increased the price of coal very much. When our steamers first started 
 we could get coals for 10s. and lis. per ton; now it costs 26s. or 27s. 
 
 Question. How long has that advance been in operation ? 
 
 Answer. For the last twelve months coal has been growing high in 
 England. 4 
 
 Question. Is coal on the advance or decrease 1 
 
 Answer. I think it has reached its highest point at present. The last 
 advices from there show a prospect that labor matters would be regulated 
 in such a manner that coal would become cheaper in England than at 
 present. 
 
 Question. How many tons does it require for the passage of your 
 ordinary vessels 1 
 
 Answer. We burn on the voyage about 17 or 18 tons per day. Our 
 average passage from here is about eighteen days. 
 
 Question. Have you used any other of our coals than the Pittsburgh 
 coals 1 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. Did you formerly bring coal enough from the other side to 
 carry you back, or did you always have to take on some here necessa- 
 rily? 
 
 Answer. We always take on more or less here. 
 
 Question. Tou take more now than you formerly did ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; or perhaps the same. There is a very little differ- 
 ence. In the present instance we have brought out very nearly enough 
 to return with. 
 
 Question. I understand you your line consisted of six. ships, but you 
 have but three on hand now ? 
 
 Answer. We have three. The others are in process of construction. 
 
 By Mr. West: 
 
 Question. Assuming that this canal could be constructed in a very 
 brief period, what, in your opinion, would be the effect toward stimu- 
 lating the construction of steamships to come to this port? 
 
 Answer. I think that we would soon have double the number of ships 
 in the trade that we now have. There are a great many ships that go 
 under the head of transient ships which are steamers ; that is, they are 
 seeking business anywhere, and are not confined to any particular line, 
 but they are debarred from coming here on account of their draught. 
 
 Question. This.is an exceptional now instead of a universal port, owing 
 to its draught o'f water 7 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Have you any idea of the total aggregate value in dollars 
 of the steamships now plying to this port? 
 
 Answer. I never have made an estimate on them. We nave about 
 40,000 tons foreign tonnage. 
 
 Question. Steam-tonnage ? 
 
 Answer. Yes. sir; plying here now. 
 
 Question. How much per ton do you suppose that costs V 
 
878 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOAKD. 
 
 Answer. That might be estimated, I suppose, at about £20 per ton. 
 Question. That is $4,000,000? n . .,,.., 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir. The cost of building steamships is much higher 
 
 Question. Then, if this canal was built, it would double the capital 
 employed in this trade ? 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir ; I think we would have treble the amount ot grain 
 coming in this direction, providing we had sufficient steam-tonnage. 
 At present they do not like to -ship any more grain unless they are sure 
 of instant means of transportation. They do not like to have their grain 
 lay here. 
 
 Question. Then double the amount of capital would be invested, in 
 your opinion, antl treble the amount of grain would come here ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Examination of Gapt. Silas Weeks, representing the Mississippi 
 and Dominion Steamship Company. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. What is your business % 
 
 Answer. I am agent for the Mississippi and Dominion Steamship 
 Company. 
 
 Question. Where does that line run % 
 
 Answer. To Liverpool. 
 
 Question. Where is it owned ? 
 
 Answer. Principally in Liverpool and Montreal, and somewhat here 
 in New Orleans. 
 
 Question. What are the number of steamships in your line ? 
 
 Answer. We have seven. They are not all in this employ ; but we 
 have seven in this and the Montreal trade. 
 
 Question. How many run to this point? 
 
 Answer. Pour. 
 
 Question. What size are they ? 
 
 Answer. From 3,100 tons to 2,000 tons. We have a new ship coming 
 here between 3,100 and 3,200 tons. 
 
 Question. Have you heard the testimony given by Captain Miller ? 
 
 Answer. I have. 
 
 Question. How far does it coincide with your own experience ? 
 
 Answer. My experience and opinion is about the same as Captain 
 Miller's, with the exception that I think if we had deep water at the 
 mouth of the Mississippi Eiver, instead of having double the quantity 
 of grain we would have treble, and even more. In fact, I think if we 
 had water here it would be the largest port in the country for steam- 
 ship operations. 
 
 Question. What is the draught of water of a 3,100-ton vessel ? 
 
 Answer. About 24 feet. 
 
 Question. I thought you said you had one running here of 3,100 tons. 
 
 Answer. No, sir; we have one coming. We have a new one coming, 
 named the Dominion, of between 3,100 and 3,200 tons. 
 
 Question. About how much would she draw ? 
 
 Answer. About 24 feet, loaded deep. 
 
 Question. How do you propose to operate her here? 
 
 Answer. She would draw here 24 feet, if we loaded her to her full 
 draught. 
 
 Question. Would it not be of most advantage to load her to her full 
 draught? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 879 
 
 Answer. It would. 
 
 Question. You will not be able to load her to over what? 
 
 Answer. Eighteen feet at the present time. 
 
 Question. What percentage of loss would there be in her operations 
 from that fact ? 
 
 Answer. I should think about 30 per cent. 
 
 Question. Was the Memphis in youx line'? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Are you acquainted with the circumstances in relation to 
 her? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. What month did she go ashore ? 
 
 Answer. In May. 
 
 Question. Eighteen hundred and seventy-two ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; last May. 
 
 Question. How many bushels of grain did she have ? 
 
 Answer. Fifty thousand bushels. 
 
 Question. How long did she lie in the bar f 
 
 Answer. Thirty-one days. 
 
 Question. Was she obliged to return here and unload ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; on account of breaking her propeller. 
 
 Question. What was the condition of the grain when it went aboard 
 of her ? 
 
 Answer. It was good. 
 
 Question. What was it when it was taken out for reloading ? 
 
 Answer. Equally as good. 
 
 Question. Have you any idea of the temperature down there ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; it was very hot, and she was lying 1 broadside to 
 the sun across the bar. Sometimes it would be almost impossible to 
 put your hand on to the iron, it would be so hot, even inside, in the 
 hold. 
 
 Question. Under ordinary circumstances, and without such a deten- 
 tion, Ms there ordinarily likely to be a more trying ordeal than that 
 against grain by climatic influence? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; I don't think there is. 
 
 Question. If she went through that furnace, seven times heated, 
 almost any other cargo would ordinarily go through ? 
 
 Answer. I think so; yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Have you any experience about the port-charges in New 
 York? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; somewhat. I have been there a number of times 
 as a ship-master. 
 
 Question. And your views with reference to the comparison between 
 this and that port 'correspond with those of Captain Miller? 
 
 Answer. They do. In fact, I think many charges in New York are 
 heavier than they are here, with the exceptions of compressing, and the 
 stevedore's bill, which we have to pay here, and that they do- not have 
 there. But of course compressing is for' our own benefit. 
 
 Question. Is cotton shipped from New York compressed? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; it goes from here and goes from the West com- 
 Drftssf d 
 
 Question. Goes from the West compressed? 
 
 Answer. It goes from the interior towns through by rail, and goes 
 from here by steam, compressed, and is reshipped there. 
 
 Question. In case the control of the pass, under excavation at the pres- 
 ent time, was confided to any competent authority, would that be bene- 
 
880 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 flcial to commerce ; I mean with reference to the movements of vessels 
 to and fro? _ .„ , . . . 
 
 Answer. I think it might in a measure. But still, ships coming m, per- 
 haps, and outside, if they had to wait until they got permission to come 
 in, might cause them a long detention. It would be a benefit so tar as 
 deep-water vessels are concerned, but not for light-draught vessels. If 
 a light-draught vessel wanted to sail in, I don't think it would be to her 
 advantage to lay-to outside until she got permission to come m. 
 
 Question. What I mean is, that if some authority had complete control 
 of the movement of vessels in and out of this pass during the process of 
 excavation, would it be better to confide it to such authority than to 
 leave the vessels entirely to their own option when to come in and when 
 to go out ? 
 
 Answer. It would be better to confide it to some one authority. 
 
 By Judge Kennard : 
 
 Question. Do you or not know that unnecessary obstructions have oc- 
 curred to the exit and inlet of vessels, from the fact that there has been 
 a collision between the Tow-Boat Association and the United States 
 officer in charge ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. What efforts do you make to secure ventilation in your 
 holds? 
 
 Answer. All of our steamers are well ventilated. The ventilators, 
 most of them, are round and about two feet in diameter. Our venti- 
 lators are obliged to be six feet from the deck. 
 
 Question. How large a bulk do you put this grain in ? 
 
 Answer. If we take it in what we call the second deck, we have it in 
 eight different compartments. In our lower hold forward we have wa- 
 ter-tight compartments ; iron bulk-heads. We do not let the grain come 
 forward. It goes a little beyond the foremast. Then we have shifting 
 boards or planks running up and down the* middle to keep the grain 
 from shifting. 
 
 Question. But you have no circulation of air in between these com- 
 partments ? 
 
 Answer. There is a space that wide, (five or six inches,) but it is gen- 
 erally filled with grain. 
 
 Question. What do you load in the fore-part of your vessel ? 
 
 Answer. Cotton. 
 
 Question. What is the largest bulk of grain and corn you can carry 
 in your vessel ? 
 
 Answer.' We took 53,000 bushels once. 
 
 Question. What is the largest single bulk ? 
 
 Answer. Ten thousand bushels. That would be one-half of the ship 
 out to the bilge. 
 
 Question. You never had any trouble about that ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. Have you ever had any reclamation made upon you^or dam- 
 ages ? 
 
 Answer. Never, sir. 
 
 Question. How long have you been in the business ? 
 
 Answer. I have been a little over a year here as agent ; but I com- 
 manded one of the steamers before I took the agency. 
 
 Question. Are you familiar with the carrying of grain in sailing-ves- 
 sels? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 881 
 
 Answer. No, sir, not in bulk ; I have carried it in sacks. 
 
 Question. .What is the length of your voyage ? 
 . Answer. Prom twelve to twenty days. One of our vessels made it in 
 sixteen days and twenty hours. 
 
 Question. That is from New Orleans to Liverpool ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. What freight do you get ? 
 
 Answer. From 8d. to Ud. I have carried it at both rates, and I have 
 had 16<7. 
 
 Question. Sixteen to thirty cents a bushel ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. What is the distance 1 
 
 Answer. About four thousand eight hundred miles. 
 
 Question. What is the ordinary freight between New York and Liv- 
 erpool 1 
 
 Answer. I think it averages from 6d. to 10d., andl2d. It has been as 
 high as 15d. this year. 
 
 Question. It is, then, generally about two-thirds as much as here? 
 
 Answer. I think it is nearly as much as ours. I think there is but 
 very little difference. 
 
 Question. How can you go so much greater distance? It is almost 
 double the distance. • 
 
 Answer. I do not know, sir. We bring passengers here for the same 
 as they take them to New York. . In fact, our return freights are the 
 same from Liverpool. We do not get quite as much a ton from Liver- 
 pool here as they do. 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. Freight is cheaper from Liverpool to New Orleans than 
 from Liverpool to New York ? 
 
 Answer. O, I don't know that it is, generally, but it is so this year. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question, What do you carry from Liverpool here ? 
 Answer. A general cargo. 
 Question. Of what, principally ? 
 ' Answer. Iron, hardware; crockery ware, machinery, &c. 
 Question. Is your load back from Liverpool here as large as the load 
 
 out"? ' ■ 
 
 Answer. We have a much larger tonnage from here to Liverpool. 
 • Question. Your tonnage eastward-bound is heavier than westward- 
 bound? 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. About what proportion would it bear 1 
 Answer. About one-half as much coming this way as going that way.. 
 Question. Do you ever put cotton on top of wheat ? 
 Answer. Not on top of wheat. We have a deck between. 
 Question. I have seen some statements from Liverpool that corn was 
 sometimes damaged coming from here on account of the way in which 
 
 it was shipped. 
 
 Answer.' It is not so on our steamers. We have never put cotton on 
 top of corn. There is always a deck between. 
 By Mr. SHERMAN : 
 Question. Would not there be danger of heating and setting on fire 
 the cotton, possibly ? 
 56 t s 
 
882 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 . Answer. Tes, sir; but 'we never have had any complaint. 
 
 By "Mr. West : 
 
 Question. How long have you been a sea-faring man ? 
 
 Answer. About thirty years. I commanded a ship twenty-four years. 
 
 Question. With reference to the dangers of navigation as between 
 Livei pooland New York and Liverpool and New Orleans, where do you 
 consider is the greater or lesser risk ? 
 
 Answer. Taking the year through, I think there is greater danger in 
 the New York trade ; that is, considering the he.avy weather that the 
 New York ships would get which the ships coming this way would 
 escape. 
 
 Question. What has been the experience in respect to that in the last 
 twelve months or two years ? Have there been more ships lost between 
 New York and Liverpool with reference to the number than there has 
 been lost between Liverpool and New Orleans! 
 
 Answer. I think so ; and I think two to one. 
 
 Question. Then, if you were an underwriter, which risk would you 
 prefer at the same rate ? 
 
 Answer. In the. summer season I should prefer New York, but in the 
 winter season I should prefer New Orleans. • ' 
 
 Question. The year round which would ^you prefer? 
 
 Answer. I should prefer New Orleans. 
 
 By Mr. Conovee : 
 Question. Would you prefer to pass the Florida reefs in winter. 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Which do you regard as the most dangerous passage from 
 here to Liverpool 1 ' . . 
 
 Answer. Coming up Florida; up the Gulf — the coast of Florida. 
 
 Question. Have you ever thought anything of the proposed- ship- 
 canal from here to the eastern coast of Florida with reference to expe- 
 diting your voyage 1 ? 
 
 Answer. 1 have heard it spoken of as being something that would 
 expedite the passage and make it more safe. 
 
 Question. What is your opinion as to the time it would take; I mean 
 the difference- of time between going that way and around ? 
 
 Answer. Perhaps a day and a half would be saved. 
 
 By Mr. Conover : 
 
 Question. What would be the distance saved in going. across the 
 peninsula? 
 
 Answer. I should have to make a calculation to figure that out. 
 
 Question. Five or six hundred miles, I presume ? 
 • Answer. No, sir ; not more than four hundred miles, I should suppose. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. What length of time have steamships been plying between 
 New Orleans and Liverpool? 
 
 Answer. I think about twelve years. 
 
 Question. Do you know how many steamers have been lost in that 
 commerce since that time? 
 
 Answer. I can only remember three that have been lost. 
 
 , Question. Do you know how many steamships have been lost between 
 New York and Liverpool within the last twelve months ? 
 
 Answer. I could not tell you that. I do not. recollect. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 883" 
 
 Question. So that in an interval of fifteen years there has been three 
 steamships lost? 
 
 Answer. That, is all to my knowledge. 
 
 Question. Where were they lost ? 
 ■ Answer. One was lost In the English Channel. That was one of our 
 steamers. Another was lost on the Bahama banks ; and one was lost 
 here, on the bar, I believe. ' She was run into and sunk. 
 
 Question. How about sailing-vessels between the two respective 
 routes? 
 
 Answer. There have been more sailing-vessels lost on Florida. The 
 Florida reefs pick up a great many sailing-vessels. 
 
 Question. That is because there are a great many to pick up ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Do you regard the sail-route between Liverpool and New 
 Orleans as more dangerous than the sail-route between Liverpool and 
 New York 1 
 
 Answer. I do ; much more. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman: • 
 . Question. Do you stop at Havana on the route ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; some of our steamers stop at Havana coming out. 
 They touch at Spain, at Corunna. 
 
 Question. You do not stop at any of the islands between, however ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 By Judge Kennard : 
 
 Question. Is it or not a fact that since the close of the war there has 
 been a large increase at this port in the steam-tonnage and a decrease 
 in the sail-tonnage 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. In estimating your rates of freight between New Orleans 
 and Liverpool, are you affected by depth of water on the bar? 
 
 Answer. Very much. 
 
 Question. If you had a uniform and certain depth of water to the 
 sea from here of 25 feet, would you be able to diminish largely the 
 present rates of freight or not ? 
 
 Answer. We would. We have two steamers here now that -will be 
 ready for sea next week ; and I have to lighter coal for them in barges 
 down over the bar. And they have not a very large quantity of grain, 
 either. One has 20,000 and one has 10,000. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. What is their capacity? 
 
 Answer. One will carry 5,000 bales, and the other 4,000. I cannot 
 load this one that I am speaking of to over 18 feet. I have had a letter 
 to that effect from her pilot. 
 
 Question. How much percentage will that diminish her actual 
 capacity ? 
 
 Answer. They could be loaded to 22 feet if we had water over the 
 
 bar. 
 
 By Judge Kennard : 
 
 Question. Is it or not a fact that, as there is an increase of tonnage of 
 vessels going from this port, there will be, of necessity, a diminution of 
 the rates of freight ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; I think there will. 
 
 Question. In other words, is the difference in the cost of managing a 
 
$84 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 vessel of the largest tonnage and one of medium tonnage as great as 
 would be the difference in" freights between the larger and the smaller? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. The principal difference' with a large or a small 
 steamer would be the coal. It takes about the same number of hands, 
 the same number of officers, the same number of engineers ; but a small 
 ship, perhaps, would take a few less firemen and less coal. 
 
 Question. You have had a good deal of experience in the difficulties 
 at the mouth of the river ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Is it, or not, your opinion that the commercial interests of 
 this port will be advanced by submitting the regulation of the ingress 
 and outgo of vessels over the bar to some one authority ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; I think it would be. 
 
 Question. Have not some of the difficulties which we have encoun- 
 tered arisen from the fact that vessels have undertaken to run the bar 
 on their own account, regardless of the advice of the engineer in charge f 
 
 Answer. Do you mean by steam-tugs, or steamboats, or the masters 
 of ships? 
 
 Question. By the masters of ships. 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; I think that ships have been put On the bar at an 
 improper time. 
 
 Question. Are you not of the opinion that some ships are put on the 
 bar for the purpose of getting precedence ; in other words, that they 
 would, of necessity, have to be removed before a second ship could go 
 on? 
 ' Answer. I do not know that I do know that, sir. 
 
 Question. I mean to say this : A and B own ships that are leaving 
 this port ; A knows that there is not water enough on the bar for his 
 ship to go over ; he runs her on the bar in order to compel her release 
 before B can get out. 
 
 Answer. O, that is left with the tow-boat people, putting her on the 
 bar, I presume. 
 
 Judge Kennard. I wish to show to the committee this point : that, 
 where A and B have a ship starting from this port, and A's ship draws 
 more water than B's, B's not drawing too much water to go over the 
 "bar, and A's drawing a little more than is indicated as the depth Df 
 water on the bar, he puts his ship on it with malice prepense, so 
 as to compel her removal before B can come on. It is an occurrence 
 that is not unfrequent here, and hence the necessity of having some 
 authority to regulate it. 
 
 The Witness. I know of a ship that has been put on to- the bar to 
 the detriment of our company very much. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Who puts them on the bar ? 
 
 Answer. I presume that it was the captain of the ship, probably, who 
 wanted to go on the bar, and persuaded the steam tow-boat people to 
 put it on. 
 
 Question. Who controls it ? 
 
 Answer. Nobody controls it. 
 
 Question. Every man goes as he can there ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 Question. Is the passage so narrow that one ship only can pass ? 
 Answer. One ship generally fills the channel up. 
 Judge Kennard. If one ship swings across tbe channel there is no- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 885 
 
 chance for another to get by. As soon as they strike the bar they are 
 swept around by the current. A year or two ago a ship was on the bar, 
 and there was some twenty^six or twenty-seven steamers blockaded ; 
 they could net move an inch. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. Is it not dangerous and expensive for a ship herself to be 
 run oh. the bar ? 
 
 Answer. O, yes ; there is danger of collision with other ships. 
 
 Question. No, no. I mean danger to his own vessel by hanging on 
 the bar 1 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; I never heard of ships being injured on the bar. 
 
 Question. You cited the case of your steamer which was injured. 
 
 Answer. O, yes ; but she broke her propeller. That was from some 
 sunken obstruction. 
 
 Judge Kennard. The character of the bottom is such that ordina- 
 rily a ship will not be damaged ! 
 
 By Mr. Conoyer, (to the witness) : 
 
 Question. Tour business is altogether in connection with ocean steam- 
 ers between this city and Liverpool and other foreign ports ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. So that you have no interest in any of the canal enterprises 
 either across Florida, Georgia, or elsewhere 1 
 
 Answer. I have no interest in the .Florida canal, butl have with the 
 Fort Saint Philip Canal. 
 
 Examination of William G. Coyle, in reference to coal and towing 
 business. 
 
 Mr. Coyle. Mr. Chairman, I am running coal from Pittsburgh by 
 
 tow-boats and tow- vessels, from the bar up to this port. If there is 
 
 . anything you wish to know about the bar, its mouth, its obstructions, 
 
 depth of water from Pittsburgh to the mouth of the river, &c., I can 
 
 probably give you such information. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. What obstructions, if any, are there between here and 
 Pittsburgh, or what difficulties do you encounter in bringing coal down 
 the river ? 
 
 Answer. We have none whatever to complain of. That is not the 
 point. We wish to confine ourselves chiefly to the difficulties at the 
 mouth -of the Mississippi River. 
 
 Question. Have you any difficulty anywhere between here andi the 
 
 mouth? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; we lose thousands of dollars every year by lack 
 of 'water on the bar, from the fact that steamers cannot take their coal 
 here. Tbey are always anxious to do it, but cannot, and have to go to 
 other ports. Last year they went to Norfolk. They go to Port Royal 
 and Havana; vessels that I have regular contracts for putting coal on — 
 in fact, all the vessels you have heard spoken of. 
 
 Question. Would it not be cheaper to lighter the coal down to the 
 outer bar than to go to Norfolk to getit ? 
 
 Answer. Sometimes it is; but sometimes it is difficult to do that- 
 Outside of the bar it is sometimes very rough, and it is impossible, for 
 two or three days at a time, when the wind is blowing from a certain 
 direction for the steamer to receive coal or cargo of any kind. 
 
886 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Question. The question occurred to me as to whether it was not econ- 
 omy to lighter a portion of the cargo down. Is that the reason l 
 
 Answer. That is one of the reasons. But it is somewhat expensive. 
 It is in fact both dangerous and expensive. The lighter must be a sea- 
 going craft, able to go to Europe herself, or else she cannot staud out- 
 side at some seasons. 
 
 Question. As soon as you get outside of this bar you are in the open 
 ocean ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. The bar itself is five miles from what we call the 
 mouth of the river. The real mouth, of course, is out where salt and 
 fresh water come in contact. It is five miles from the nearest landing. 
 
 Question. Is that bar constantly moving out ? 
 
 Answer. The bar is constantly moving out into the sea. 
 ' Question. At what rate 1 
 
 Answer. At the rate of perhaps a hundred feet. It varies, though. 
 One year it does not move at all apparently, and another year a hundred 
 feet. But it averages, say, 20 or 30 feet each year. 
 
 Mr. West. More than that *? 
 
 Mr. Coyle. It don't go any more than that. However, we speak of 
 course at the entrance. It is sometimes stated as high as a hundred 
 feet. I never heard of its being 300 feet. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. What are your charges for.towage from the bar to the city ? 
 
 Answer. We tow from sea to the city because we have to take charge 
 of vessels outside of the bar. They come to anchor say from one to five 
 or ten miles outside of the bar, as the case may be. Sometimes we tow 
 them thirty miles from sea to the bar, and then up. The charge is from 
 $1.40 to $1.50 up and down per ton, according to the draught. If there 
 was deep water on the bar this charge could be. reduced at least one- 
 third, say 33£ pe"r cent. The charge is apparently high, but the cause 
 is this : Vessels load here, going out and coming in , to a greater draught 
 than there is water on the bar. When they go down there they are put 
 on, and have to wait for tide ; and we put on from two to four or five 
 tow-boats at a time. They lash up alongside of the sailing-vessel, and 
 we have tugged at them there for a month at a time ; and frequently 
 three or four days before we could get them out at the tides. Sometimes 
 it is rough weather; and in rough weather, the swells being very large, 
 and sometimes as large as they are at sea, the tng-boat knocks against 
 the sides of the vessel and tears herself to pieces. The engine gets out 
 of line, the vessel is strained, and a great deal of damage is caused to the 
 tow-boat. It takes three or four of them to get them out, and the wear 
 and tear is great. If there was deep water, as I say, however, the 
 charge could be reduced. If the Fort Saint Philip Canal was established, 
 I think the charge would be reduced at least one-half; and instead of' 
 being $1.40 or $1.50, it would be perhaps 75 cents. 
 
 Question. Tou have a fixed charge of so much a ton, carpenter's 
 measure ? 
 
 Answer. It is United States measurement, registered tonnage. 
 
 Question. And it does not vary if you are detained a shorter or 
 longer time ; you make a contract to do it for so much I 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; the vessel has to go to sea, and we take her down ; 
 and if we get her out in five minutes, it is to our advantage of course ; 
 and if we keep her there for a month, as a general thing, it is no more. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 887 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. Is that empty or loaded ? 
 
 Answer. They never go out empty. They always come in here in 
 order to get a load. But coming in from Europe or elsewhere the same 
 thing has to take place. If they are over 17 or 18 feet there is difficulty 
 in getting them in, except at certain seasons, when we have very hi«h 
 tides. Those are occasional, however. Sometimes, if the wind is iif a 
 certain direction, it will make 20 feet of water on the Bar. But that is 
 only occasional. At other times we have only 16 J to IS— 16 J at low 
 and 18 feet at high tide. " 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. So that the charges for towing could be reduced, as I under- 
 stand you, in two ways? In the first place, if a vessel could go out" 
 loaded, instead of carrying only 70 per cent, of ber -load, she "would 
 make 30 per cent in that way, as you would tow her for the same price, 
 you charging by the ton. 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir; without what she carries. Now, some vessels 
 measure more than others. One vessel will carry a thousand bales of 
 cotton, and anotheF, of the same registered tonnage, twelve hundred 
 bales. It depends on the shape of the vessel. As I say, we could re- 
 duce 33J per cent, if we had deep water continually on the bar. 
 
 Question. Tou gave us by the measurement of vessels of 1,500 tons 
 the charge of how much ? 
 
 Answer. The charge covered towing in and out. She would, of course, 
 draw over 18 feet, in that measurement, and it would be $2,250 up and 
 down. But she charges that, of course, on her freight, and the freight ' 
 would be.less as the towage was less. 
 
 Question. What is the cost of towage from Pittsburgh here on coal"? 
 
 Answer. About 6 cents a busheh - 
 
 Question. That includes the whole cost of transporting the coal ? ■ 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; it does not include, of course, the cost of the barge 
 which contains it, but simply the towing. We do not take the vessels 
 back ; we build them in fiat boats of inch and a half plank, and break 
 them up for old lumber. The cost of the coal is included in the cost of 
 the flat-boat originally. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. How many miles is it ? 
 
 Answer. From here to Pittsburgh it is about two thousand two hun- 
 dred to two thousand four hundred miles. I am not certain which. It 
 is over two thousand two hundred and less than two thousand four hun- 
 dred. I do not know the exact distance. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. It does not cost much more to tow a barge with coal from 
 Pittsburgh here than a vessel out and in over the bar ; it does not cost 
 much more per ton than it does per ton on the vessel? 
 
 Answer. O, yes ; it does. We have to take the cost of getting back 
 to Pittsburgh. It costs about $10,000 for a two-boat to make a tow 
 between here and Pittsburgh. I might as well say that the sailing- 
 crafts which come here rarely get up to 1,500 tons. 
 
 Question. Then 6 cents a bushel, or $1.50 a ton, on coal is all the coal 
 exporter pays. Tou get the coal-boats back at your own charge "! 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir; we carry a large quantity of it down, however^- 
 400,000 bushels in a tow. 
 
 Question. Do your boats tow the wheat barges ? 
 
888 . TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 ' Answer. We are not engaged in that. Our boats simply tow coal. 
 We could, of course, tow the wheat. 
 
 Question. They are the same kind of boats'? 
 
 Answer. The same kind exactly. A tow of coal is $24,000 coming 
 down. 
 
 Question. I have a statement here, submitted by the Chamber of Com- 
 merce, and wish to call your attention to some items : " The Future 
 City, tow-boat, and five barges of the Mississippi Valley Transportation 
 Company; coal fifty tons per day, at $2.50 a ton." How do you regard 
 these figures — as about right in amount ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; at Saint Louis. That is the price there. 
 
 Question. Is that about the quantity that such a tow-boat would use? 
 
 Answer. She ought not to use that much. 
 
 Question. " Engineers, one $3 and one $5 per day?" ■ 
 
 Answer. That is right. 
 
 Question. "Captain, $5?" 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; although we pay more than that to our captains. 
 
 Question. Coming with coal-barges, do you pay more than that? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. How much ? 
 
 Answer. We pay them $3,000 a year. 
 
 Question. How much do you pay the men? 
 
 Answer. About the same as here. 
 
 Question. About $1.50 i 
 
 Auswer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. " Pilots, (two,) at $5 V 
 
 Answer. We pay more than that to our men. We pay double that — 
 $2,500 to $4,000. 
 
 Question. I am speaking now of the upper river. 
 
 Answer. I am speaking of the same. 
 
 Question. Would pilots command a better price from Pittsburgh thaa 
 from Saint Louis ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. It is a more difficult river. 
 
 Question. What do you- say as to its being a fair compensation here 1 
 
 Answer. I know those are the prices that are paid to those men. As 
 a general thing, however, we pay in the coal-trade more than these 
 prices. , But our boats are more powerful than those boats used in this 
 trade, and we can carry one.-third more, at least, than they do. So-that 
 our charges for chief officers, although they are a little more, still, on 
 the whole tow, it amounts to less than this pay. We actually get it for 
 less. The only outlay is in the original cost of the tow-boat. Ours cost 
 from $70,000 to $100,000, and these from $30,000 to $50,000. Of course, 
 we have smaller boats, which we use in the upper rivers. I am exceed- 
 ingly anxious to get deep water, to sell more coal, and also that I shall 
 not wear my boats to pieces while they are towing vessels. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Question. I understand you to say that the reason you had to charge 
 $1.40 or $1.50 for towing out and in, is that vessels sometimes get on 
 the bar and are detained there ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. How is it when the vessels draw 12 or 15 feet of water, 
 ■which are never caught there ; do you charge less for that class of ves- 
 sels? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. We charge sometimes only $1.25, and have towed 
 them up and down for $1. 
 
■TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 889 
 
 Question. What is your usual charge ? 
 
 Answer. One dollar and forty cents to 81.50. But, as I say, we have 
 towed those for $1.25 or $1, for vessels only of that draught/ 
 
 Question. Have you a monopoly of towing, or can anyone who has 
 a tow-boat tow a vessel up and down ? 
 
 Answer. We have no monopoly, and anybody who wishes it can tow 
 on the Mississippi Biver, up and dowu. 
 
 Question. Does any other person own tow-boats running from here 
 ■out over the bar ? 
 
 Answer. (Interrupting.) When you say a monopoly you mean the right, 
 of course, of anybody. Well, you can go and tow there. I wish that 
 matter plainly understood. That is all. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. Is not your organization a virtual monopoly? Touarethe 
 only one who owns tow-boats between here and the bar, towing vessels 
 up and down. 
 
 Answer. I am not the only one. No, sir. But in order to answer 
 more freely, and to come to the point quickly, and -.to stop answer- 
 ing questions, I am associated with others. There are four or five com- 
 panies — five companies, in fact, that are towing from the sea to the city, 
 and I form one of those companies. 
 
 Question. Do you mean four or five organizations ? 
 
 Answer. Four or five different organizations, with different presidents, 
 different managements, and sometimes they run in opposition to each 
 other and sometimes they run together. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. Are you together now, sir ? 
 
 Answer. At the present time we are. But we will not be any longer 
 than May next. * 
 
 Question. How long have you been associated together? 
 
 Answer. We have been together for three years, to my knowledge. 
 We have had opposition, however, at various times during that period. 
 We have been for five years together, although we ran in opposition for 
 about a year. But we have been running together now for three con- 
 secutive years. In that time we have had other boats engaged in the 
 towing trade running against us. 
 
 Question. How often has your rate changed in the last three years ? 
 
 Answer. Our regular rate has changed twice or three times, I believe; 
 ' twice, anyhow. 
 
 Question. What caused the change ? 
 
 Answer. Perhaps opposition did. It generally does. 
 
 Question. How did you get rid of opposition when you got it ! 
 
 Answer. Fought it, sir, as anybody does in any other business. 
 
 Question. What becomes of it after you are done fighting it, or dur- 
 ing the fight ; what is the general result ; do you get together and com- 
 bine? 
 
 Answer. We have fought against each other and lost so much money 
 that we thought it folly to do so any longer, and have come togethei 
 and combined to charge a certain rate. 
 
 Question. You are all together now ? iilii . 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; not in ownership or anything ot that kind, but sim- 
 ply have agreed on the price. 
 
 Question. What has been your lowest price within the last three 
 
 years? 
 
890 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Answer. A dollar, I believe, lias been the lowest price ; a dollar for 
 towage up, and 25 cents for towage down, making $1.25 up and down. 
 That is the regular charge. "We have towed for less than that at times ; 
 for 75 cents, 80 cents, 90 cents, 95 cents, as the case may be, and as we 
 are compelled to. We did not pretend that 75 cents paid us, but we 
 took it and lost money at it. 
 
 Question. How many miles is it ? 
 
 Answer. One hundred and ten miles to the bar. We ordinarily, how- 
 ever, take vessels thirty miles to sea. That makes one hundred and 
 fifty miles, and double that up and down is three hundred miles. 
 
 Question. The rate from Pittsburgh for towing coal two thousand four 
 hundred miles, I understand, is about $1.60 a ton, according to the way 
 . you gave it to us ? 
 
 Answer. Admit that it is so. 
 
 Question. Then the rate from here down over the bar is nearly, if not 
 the same ? It is 81.50, say. 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. From here over the bar ? 
 
 Answer. No ; he means up and down, from sea to sea. They are 
 taken some distance outside of the bar, as I say, before they are let 
 go, so that the distance is more than two hundred and twenty miles. 
 However, you must take thisinto consideration : From Pittsburgh down 
 we come with the current ; the current drives the whole tow. 
 
 (Have you ever seen a coal-tow in the river, Mr. Davis ? 
 
 Mr. Davis. O, yes.) 
 
 The Witness. Then you know what it is ; the current brings it. It 
 is not taken against the current. From the bar, however, we have to tow 
 against the current. There is a four-mile current. Then, too, it re- 
 quires a different class of vessels, and vessels also do not last as long. 
 The vessel that you have to go to the bar with costs a good deal of 
 money, and the wear and tear on them is much greater from the causes 
 I have just described to you. 
 
 Question. How do you get over the Louisville Canal ; do you pass 
 around it or through it 1 
 
 Answer. It defends on the stage of the water. If there is not suf- 
 ficient water in the falls, of course we. have to come through the canal. 
 
 Question. What have you to pay when you come through that? 
 
 Answer. About half a cent a bushel, or a fraction less than half a 
 cent. 
 
 Question. In other words,, that is 12 or 13 cents a ton, isn't it? 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir; about 12 or 13 cents a ton. 
 
 Question. Who pays that ? 
 
 Answer. ,The owner "of the coal. We pay it, of course. We are the 
 owners of the coal and the owners of the tow-boats. 
 
 Question. You pay it 1 ? . 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. This is included iu the $1.60? 
 
 Answer. No,.sir; that is extra. Sometimes, you know, we don't pay 
 it, because we come through over the falls. Then, too, coal sometimes 
 costs us 10 cents, if we should happen to be a long time on the way, 
 and be caught in low water at an island or on the bar. I am giving you 
 the ordinary run of high water. 
 
 Question. Will the boat that tows your coal down tow your vessel out 
 to the bar I 
 
TKAXSPOUTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 891 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; it is not suitable for that purpose ; it would sink. 
 A vessel that goes over the bar has to be a sea-going vessel, capable of 
 going anywhere in the ocean ; and if you have ever seen a tow-boat in 
 the river, you will have observed that they are only a foot or two feet 
 above the water. The waves would sink them in an instant. • 
 
 Question. You say your organization for towing out and in now con- 
 sists of four different organizations ? 
 
 Answer: Yes, sir ; four or five. 
 
 Question. And you have gone together and made a uniform rate f 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; that is all. 
 
 Question. Do you divide the earnings among you ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; according to our proportion of boats. Some have 
 "more boats and some less, and of. course they divide it according to their 
 prorata of boats, or of capital invested in other words, which amounts 
 to the same thing. 
 
 Question. And as new companies who have been in opposifion to you 
 have organized, you have taken them into your combination and divided 
 with them, have you? 
 
 Answer. There has been only one new company since the war, and 
 that has been'taken in, after running a couple of years in opposition. 
 
 Question. What does it cost you to tow a vessel from here out, say, 
 a vessel drawing 15 feet of water ? What time is consumed ? What 
 is the actual expenditure ? 
 
 Answer. Do you mean from here only 1 
 
 Question. I want to know the actual cost of towing it up and down. 
 
 Answer. For a vessel of that draught it would not exceed $500 ; say 
 
 Question. What would you get for it ? 
 .Answer. It would depend on the tq image altogether. If she is only 
 a hundred tons, we get $100 or $125, or $150; that is, as the case 
 may be. 
 
 Question. Well, you know what a vessel drawing 15 feet of water 
 . ordinarily would be ? 
 
 Answer. Her tonnage would be 700 or 800 tons, although the draught 
 of vessels do not always correspond. 
 
 Question. Speaking ordinarily f 
 
 Answer. Well, 700 or 800 tons, I suppose. We would get for. that, 
 say $900 or $1,000. ■ ' 
 
 Question. It would cost you, you say, $400 or $500? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; and perhaps $600, depending on the seasons. 
 Still we have the tow-boats down there, and they do nothing for a week 
 at a' time, perhaps. The expense of that, except the burning of the 
 coal, is the same as if they were at work. 
 
 Question. What is the total capital of your organization 1 ? 
 
 Answer. Do you mean of the five companies "? 
 
 Question. Yes, sir; the actual cost. 
 
 Answer. One million of dollars. 
 
 Question. How many boats have you 1 
 
 Answer. There are twenty-two. 
 
 Question. What per cent, do you divide or pay on your capital per 
 
 ^Answer That depends on circumstances. Some years it is more and 
 some years it is less, according to the amount of repairs that have to 
 be made on the tow-boats. Some years there has been none whatever. 
 
 Question. What are the years? 
 
 Answer. Some years nothing has been paid. I have known two 
 
892 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 years at a time that I have been connected with them, and there _was 
 nothing whatever paid. Other years 8 per cent ; another year i.o per 
 cent., and another year 20 per cent. . ■ 
 
 Question. Were you building new boats and increasing your stocK at 
 the time you paid none 1 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; I believe we ran in opposition to each other. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Question. It is a profitable business, I suppose, on the whole 1 
 Answer. That is the reason, probably, that we came together. 
 
 By Judge Kennard : 
 
 Question. You have given the committee the rates of towage where 
 you engage to bring a ship in and take her out, or take her out and re- 
 turn. In case a ship undertakes to run the bar on her own account, 
 without reference to your associations, these rates do not apply, do they ? 
 
 Answer. Unless she gets too badly grounded. 
 
 Question. I mean to say this : You have already given the exact 
 rates of tonnage where you take the contract from here to carry a ship 
 out. Now, if the ship undertakes to run the bar on her own account, 
 those rates have no application, have they ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; we charge the same rates, unless she gets so badly 
 grounded that it costs a good deal of money to get her off before they 
 make a contract with us. 
 
 Question. Were the rates that you charged the steamship Memphis 
 identical with the rates that you have testified to here? 
 
 Answer. The rates I have spoken of have reference altogether to sail, 
 which I suppose everybody understood, and not to steam. Steamboats 
 take the assistance of tow-boats rarely, and there are no rates fixed for 
 them. There is a contract made at each and every time. 
 
 Question. Have you looked into this bill of charges of the steamer 
 Memphis? 
 
 Answer. I have not. 
 
 Question. I wish you would look at it and state whether it is correct. 
 State whether the amount paid of $8,400 is correct ? 
 
 Answer. I did not receive the money. 
 
 Question. Do you happen to know whether that is correct ? 
 
 Answer. I cannot swear that it is. 
 • Question. Can you swear that it is not ? 
 
 Answer. I do not deny that it is the fact, but I am not aware that it 
 is. I do not refuse to answer the question at all, but desire to say that 
 I am simply not aware that it is the correct price. 
 
 Judge Kennard, (to the committee.) My understanding is that 
 where a steamship undertakes to run the bar on her own account, with- 
 out consulting the company, the company are not confined to their reg- 
 ular rates. 
 
 Mr. Ooyle. We have no regular rates for steamships, but we work 
 on them at the rate of $50 an hour. We are not, however, confined to 
 the rates. 
 
 . By Judge Kennard : 
 Question. Is that $50 an hour for each boat ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. The steamer has as many as she chooses to em- 
 . ploy. If we had five tugging at her the cost would be $250 an hour. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman: 
 Question. Are your companies partnerships or corporations ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 893- 
 
 Answer. Some of each ; mine is a corporation, as is the majority. 
 
 Question. Then you are subject to the power of the State of Louisiana 
 to alter, change, or repeal your charter 1 
 
 Answer. Certainly. I would like to make a little statement. It is in 
 reference to a collision between the tow-boat company and the engineer 
 in charge at the passes. I would like to say that the only collision that 
 ever occurred between the tow-boat company and the- engineer at the 
 pass was this : The engineer, about a year and a half ago, stated that 
 nothing should pass the mouth of the river, without his consent, be- 
 tween the hours of 7 in the morning and 5 in the afternoon. If there 
 are any seamen on this committee, they will know that vessels are put 
 to sea and arrive at the high flood-tide. If flood-tide happened to be 
 between those hours, no person could put vessels to sea, and at night- 
 time it was low water ; and they would have to remain until the en- 
 gineer saw fit to quit. The tow-boat association, of course, refused to 
 cease their work, and allow him to work between 7 and 5 ; and if that 
 should be continued forever, there would be no work whatever clone on 
 the bar. The system of dredging which he has adopted is to stir up 
 the mud and take it out. We contend that the proper time is at the 
 ebb-tide to take the mud out, but not when the tide is coming in ; and 
 if a gentleman was put in charge of the bar, and confined to work from 
 7 to 5, not one-half the tonnage could arrive and depart that comes 
 to New Orleans at the present time. In winter we have high tides 
 chiefly at night ; and the tow-boats desire no collision with the engineer 
 in charge or anybody else. They simply wish the privilege of conduct- 
 ing their business at suitable hours. I would simply submit whether it 
 is right always to establish certain hours in the day, to make others 
 work at night, when the best water was in the day-time. I wish to say 
 that there is no enmity whatever existing between the engineer in 
 charge and the tow-boat association. In the first place, the engineer in 
 charge has not worked there since May, 1872 — at the pass we use. We 
 have not been in collision with him since that time. 
 
 Examination of Hon. Joseph H. Oglesby, president of the Chamber 
 of Commerce of the city of New Orleans. 
 
 Mr. Oglesby. Mr. Chairman, I simply propose to call your attention 
 for a few minutes to this question in a commercial and financial point 
 of view, as it presents itself to my mind. The figures and statements 
 given will show you the comparative rates of transportation. My only ob- 
 ject to-day — for I hope to have the pleasure of meeting you on Monday, 
 when we can converse upon these things leisurely— is to say that in my 
 opinion an outlet this way for grain from the Northwest, and a speedy 
 and certain passage to and fro of vessels of suflicient draught of water, 
 would be of immense benefit to the whole country. The benefit flow- 
 ing from that, in my judgment, would be this : Financially it would re- 
 lieve the banks of the West, and North, and Northwest of carrying 
 these enormous quantities of grain during the. winter months, which 
 cannot be moved except.in comparatively small parcels by rail. That 
 would take a burden off the West, and the advantage immediately 
 derived would be very great.- . / 
 
 Another consideration which has great weight w^th me is this : This- 
 grain is kept in the West, in elevators, in warehouses and elsewhere 
 during the winter months, when the germinating principle in it is per- 
 fectly dormant. It is not moved in large bodies until after the middle 
 of April. In March and April the germinating principle of the grain 
 
894 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 manifests itself, no matter where you put wheat and corn, and that is 
 the real reason why at least 60 per cent, of the receipts of grain in the 
 port of New York in June, July, and August are totally unfit tor food 
 and shipment ahroad, and why it goes into distillation. With the tide 
 turned this way, that corn would move here in November, January, and 
 February, and find an outlet and consumption in the world's market 
 before that principle of germinating manifests itself at all. These two 
 features, in my judgment, are two of the most important on the subject. 
 I have kept grain here in the elevators daring the latter part of Novem- 
 ber, December, and January without any detriment whatever. 
 
 I do not think the report furnished you is quite as full on the question 
 of transportation as it might be. I have given this matter some atten- 
 tion. I have made two or three special trips to Europe to endeavor to 
 establish a liue of steamers here. We got along as well as other parts 
 of the world, when all was moved by sail; but the last twelve or fifteen 
 years has wholly changed the nature of the commerce of the world, and 
 it now goes by steam. Our friends and correspondents on the other 
 side are perfectly willing to give us steamers on 24 leet depth of water; 
 but they cannot do any more than that. 
 
 Now steamers to carry 50,000 or 60,000 bushels of grain and three 
 thousand bales of cotton, would make profitable trips. They could 
 come in on a depth of 24, 25, 26, or 27 feet, as the case might be. Once 
 establish them, they would naturally bring for distribution to New 
 Orleans all the importations of the West and Northwest. That would 
 give return trips to outward-'bound vessels from here. As it is now, 
 a vessel coming to New Orleans must bring sufficient on her down 
 trip to pay the entire round trip and return to the point of departure. 
 If we had those steamers coming here it would necessarily briug prop- 
 erty down, and they would get return trips that would enable down 
 trips to be brought at a reduced rate. Very experienced men have sat- 
 isfied me that 6 or 7 cents a bushel on grain from Saint Louis here would 
 be sufficient. But the charge has been 10 or 12 cents, because we get 
 no return freights. 
 
 It would be a great advantage if we had an outlet from here through 
 the mouth of the river during the entire season. It would give a steady 
 stream to the consuming markets of the world, and would stop the 
 enormous stocks that are carried during the winter months on the lakes, 
 and would make this grain to move to the world's market, as- 1 say, be- 
 fore this germinating principle in the spring manifests itself; and the 
 saving in damage to grain thereby would be a percentage which I 
 would not like to deelare, for fear it would be estimated too high. But 
 I have been in New York and noticed the arrivals there, and I noticed 
 from 50 to 60 per cent, of their summer arrivals were damaged. That, 
 with an outlet through the winter months, would have" found its way 
 months and months previous to the markets of Europe, been sold and 
 consumed, and the money returned. It costs no more for railroad trans- 
 portation from the interior points of Cairo than from Chicago. The 
 movement, therefore, that now takes place at Chicago would, in event 
 of an outlet here, take place at Cairo. This movement would be con- 
 tinuous, because there is never obstruction to navigation from Cairo 
 here. It is -open winter and summer. I have lived in New Orleans 
 thirty-three years, and but twice in that time has there been any 
 obstruction between Memphis and Cairo. With an outlet here, with 
 regular lines of steamers trading, and any assurance that dispatch 
 would be given to cargoes, this movement from the west would continue 
 entirely throughout the winter months. The rails would be relieved 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 895 
 
 and it would deprive them of the opportunity to make the high charges 
 they are now demanding. I think there is still enough, however, for 
 both lines to be fully engaged at remunerative prices. The main feature, 
 in my mind, is that this grain may be moved during the winter months, 
 when the germinating principle is entirely dormant. It would add mil- 
 lions to the wealth and income of the farmers. For iustance, take the 
 present price in the West and the price in Liverpool, and the cost of 
 placing it there by way of New Orleans, admitting that we have a 25- 
 foot water-depth out. The advanced price in the West would be not less 
 than 8 to 10 cents, a bushel over that which rules there to-day. That 
 would enure at once to the farmer. He never has been paid for his 
 product. The gross products of the western farmer' are not $14 an 
 acre. 
 
 •By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. In your observations abroad and your long experience 
 here, what do you think is the reason that this trade has. not been 
 opened in this way ? 
 
 Answer. Since 1858 steam-navigation has increased with wonderful 
 rapidity. Prior to that time I suppose 75 per cent, of the world's com- 
 merce was by sail ; and when that was the case, New Orleans had an equal 
 show with every other exporting market of this country. But now 75 
 per cent, of the world's commerce is done by steam. Telegraph and 
 steam have entirely revolutionized the whole order of things. I can 
 hardly explain, it better than by giving you an interview I had two years 
 ago with a large cotton-spinner in Manchester. He formerly sent his 
 orders here for cotton ; and I asked him why they were not now sent 
 here instead of to New York. He says: "Establish steam to New 
 Orleans, and I will send my orders to you, for the reason that I can get 
 better selections there; but with steam and telegraphy I can run my 
 mills up to thirty-six hours supply. I can telegraph from my office here 
 to New York to buy me so many hundred bales of cotton, and ship by 
 first steamer. I receive a dispatch by to-morrow, saying, ' cotton bought 
 and going on the Bussia.' I can count on her arrival at Liverpool and 
 the cotton's arrival at my mill upon almost a certain day. Therefore, I 
 carry large stocks, and I do not lose large interest. If I were to send 
 a dispatch to New Orleans, where there is no steam, or occasional de- 
 partures of steam, my agent might telegraph me back that), the cotton 
 was bought and going on board such a ship. I do not know whether 
 that ship will sail in ten or thirty days. She will sail when she is full ; 
 and when she does sail I do not know whether she will arrive here in 
 forty or ninety days; and therefore I cannot send to JNew Orleans for 
 
 • Now it would do wonders in building up a local business for New Or- 
 leans and through that, I think, it would very materially benefit the 
 entire country. In fact it would not do so much for New Orleans as for 
 the interior of the cotton or grain growing States. I am- satisfied by 
 experience taking Saint Louis as a central grain point, that grain can 
 be placed in Liverbool quicker and 15 cents a bushel cheaper than by 
 way of New York, the year round, if you give us proper facilities to get 
 to the deep water of the Gulf. It is clear that 15 cents a bushel (or 
 whatever it may be) will enure at once to the producer of this crop, and 
 it would therefore be the means of giving to the farmer of the West that 
 which he has never received, namely, an adequate return for his labor. 
 I do not speak of this matter or urge it particularly in favor of New 
 ■Orleans which would be the place of transshipment, but it would fill 
 
896 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD 
 
 up the waste places of the Southern States, and the rapidly-developing: 
 West. It would not interfere with any railroad movement, because 
 there is amply enough to satisfy both. 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. I am aware that before the war shipments of cotton from 
 Hew Orleans exceeded those of any other portion of the country very 
 largely ; but I do not remember how it was as to grain. Can you answer 
 that 1 
 
 Answer. We had scarcely any movement of grain here. I joined in 
 building this elevator which we have in order that we might secure 
 facilities for handling grain, and believing that the grain-trade of 
 the West must be a leading trade of this country. To satisfy the pre- 
 judices of those abroad, I purchased grain, brought it here, and sent it 
 abroad. To show the uncertainties of sail, on one occasion we loaded 
 at the elevator two barks. of about the same capacity, one, I think, car- 
 rying 29,000 bushels of wheat, and the other probably 31,000. They 
 left here within thirty-five hours of each other. One was supposed to 
 be a faster bark than the other. They struck counter winds. The one 
 reached Liverpool in twenty-eight days and the other was forty-nine 
 days out. The one's cargo came out at Liverpool in first-rate condition;, 
 the other came out somewhat heated, and it made an average safety from 
 loss. One paid a profit a little greater than would have covered the 
 loss on the other, so that the venture came out a little ahead. 
 
 But everything, gentlemen, now-a-days, in this business world of ours, 
 goes upon the certainty and directness of steam. I think that ten years 
 hence sailing-vessels (except for carrying timber, and matters of that 
 kind) will be a thing unknown. It is a long voyage from here to Liv- 
 erpool of about four thousand four hundred miles. I have made it in 
 an ordinary steamer to Southampton, a little farther than Liverpool, in 
 sixteen days from here. 
 
 The proprietors of the White Star line of steamers, now trading to 
 New York, and in my judgment the best line of .steamers for business 
 that cross the ocean, have told me that with a draught of 25 or 26 feet of 
 water, they would put on a similar line to New Orleans. Now, vessels 
 of that class would carry readily C0,000 bushels of grain and 4,000 bales 
 of cotton. As you increase the carrying capacity of a ship you decrease 
 in a ratio the .cost of transportation. A .vessel of that kind, and with 
 water sufficient to get to the deep waters of the Gulf, can make money 
 in carrying grain from here to Liverpool at 9d. a bushel — that is, IS 
 cents. And I contend that 7 cents a bushel down from Cairo is, in my 
 judgment, a maximum rate of freight, if ever we get this done. There 
 is 25 cents a bushel, and 1 or 2 cents, as you please, here for expense, 
 which would be 27 cents from Cairo to Liverpool. The lowest average 
 price of graiu in Liverpool is about 83£ cents per bushel of corn, and I 
 take corn as a criterion. It is fairer, too, for the proposition that I 
 make, because it is bulkier, and more likely to damage than wheat. We 
 have had but one competitor in the Liverpool market, and that is the 
 Bussian product; but if you will take the tables you will find that 
 Bussia cannot lay corn in Liverpool at 83 cents. 
 
 By Mx. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Do they produce much corn in Bussia ? ' 
 
 Answer. The Baltic and Black Sea supply it. They are the only com- 
 petitors of American producers in the corn-markets of the world ; and 
 with the facilities that a ready outlet from . here to deep water would 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 897 
 
 give us, the grain-growers of the West would sweep all European corn- 
 growers out of the way. 
 
 I think there is a mistaken idea about the time occupied in taking 
 grain from Chicago to New York by lake and canal. It is a pretty long 
 trip, and it is a slow trip. You cau take the records of the New York 
 grain market ; and I do not hazard much in saying that 60 per cent, of 
 their receipts there during the summer months, which have been kept 
 through the winter, and carried at a high cost, tying up vast sums of 
 money which ought to be used and should be used in other things, has 
 passed into distillation, the damaged grain being so very great, and 
 comes back in the shape of bad whisky. With an outlet here I think 
 that would all find its way to the world; to be consumed, turned into 
 money, the products scattered over this country again long before, as 
 things now are, it reaches tide-water at all. 
 
 The entire trade of New Orleans before the war was second to New 
 York only. Now, we have nothing of the kind. She rate of freight on 
 what they call fourth-class cargo from New York to Saiut Louis, taking 
 that as a central point, will average about 94 cents a hundred, if I am 
 rightly informed; and that same property can be delivered from New 
 Orleans to Saint Louis at 20 cents. Everything that cheapens com- 
 merce promotes movement. Here, at once, is a saving of 74 cents a 
 hundred pounds on all that is imported for consumption and trade in 
 the West. Another thing, it would create a hearty competition, which, 
 if it had been in existence this fall, would have very greatly benefited 
 your constituents. The average price of freight on grain, from New 
 York is seven cents a bushel; but this season they have charged as high 
 as 16d. There was no competition. Competition cheapens. Had this 
 canal been built or navigation to deep water with 24 or 25 feet, and 
 steamers coming to New Orleans, you would have heard nothing of 
 lid. per bushel for grain from New York to Liverpool, and begging 
 ships to take it at that. It would have come this way. There would 
 have been a good deal going both ways. We would have shipped it 
 from here at 10d, and it would have been shipped from there at Id. 
 
 Examination of Col. James T. Tucker, general agent of the Illinois 
 Central Eailroad. 
 
 Mr. Chairman, I desire to present to you, briefly, my views upon the 
 question of how the improvements of the river and the opening of this 
 canal will benefit the West. I have been here twelve years. I was sent 
 here to represent the company, after having been with them in the 
 West for a long time. We selected New Orleans to bring about the 
 system of the importation of goods by New Orleans to reach all western 
 points, as against New York. We have now completed our line of rail- 
 road and opened it through to Chicago, without change, carrying im- 
 ported goods from here to all western points with no change whatever, 
 as far as carrying goods, with or without appraisement-; is concerned. 
 That is rail all the way. We reach all western points — Dubuque, Saint 
 
 Paul, &c. . 
 
 Question. You carry goods in bond ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. The benefit of a canal would allow the large 
 steamers to come here which go into New York, bringing imported 
 goods. The West is supplied principally from New York. Imported 
 goods' are now coming here in large quantities for the West, which be- 
 fore this we had been carrying by barges and steamboat to Cairo, on 
 account of the cheapness of transportation. The steamers of Captains 
 Weeks and Miller bring large quantities of goods consigned to us 
 57 T S 
 
898 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. . 
 
 We simply reach rail points. By cheapening transportation, by having 
 larger-sized ships, we could very much reduce the cost of bringing 
 those goods here; and even now we beat New York nearly a hundred 
 per cent. We can carry to almost every point in the West, at not over 
 60 cents a hundred, of any kind of goods. We call all our goods fourth- 
 class, however, and we have done that to facilitate the business. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. What is your rate from here to Chicago ? 
 
 Answer. Thirty-five cents a hundred pounds to-day. I carry sugar, 
 molasses, and rice. We make no rate to Cairo. We have got to get 
 beyond Cairo. By rail I could take goods at 55 cents. Thirty-five 
 cents is by barge from here to Cairo, and then transferred to Chicago 
 by rail. We prorate from here to Chicago. 
 
 Question. What are the terms that you prorate on, water and rail ! 
 
 Answer. Two to one, just one-third. But we do better than that : if 
 there are three boats here, one going to Cincinnati, one to Louisville, 
 and one to Saint Louis, all wanting Illinois Central freight, one will 
 offer to take it at 15 cents, another at 17£, and perhaps another at 20; 
 but my through rate, however, does not change ; I give the full bill-of- 
 lading and the company give the shipper the benefit. We ha^e reduced 
 the rates so much to encourage the trade. We call it two to one. For 
 instance, we are three hundred and sixty miles from Cairo to Chicago, 
 and they are one thousand fifty miles from here to Cairo, and they only 
 get four-tenths and we six-tenths. The extreme would be four-tenths 
 to them under any circumstances. Out of ten-tenths we should, under 
 no circumstances, allow them more than four-tenths. 
 
 Question. And they haul one thousand and fifty and you three hun- 
 dred and sixty-five miles "1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. What would that rate be- per mile for you and what for the 
 river 1 
 
 Answer. I think it would be on the river not quite half a cent a toil a 
 mile, and for us about a cent and a little over a quarter — about a cent 
 and a quarter a ton a mile at that rate, and about half a cent for them. 
 
 Question. Do you also prorate this way — southward? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; at Cairo, coming down. The boat comes along in 
 this way : if she is loaded she does not want our freight so much. If 
 you want a general average I can give it to you. A general average is 
 about two to one. If we should get $1.10 on flour, we should allow 
 them 35 cents^a barrel. 
 
 Question. And they have nearly three times the distance ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; they have, as I say, one thousand and fifty miles, 
 and we have three hundred and sixty-five miles. We call that one- 
 third. The distance between Chicago and New York is nine hundred 
 and twelve miles by rail, and between here and Chicago nine hundred 
 and eleven miles. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Question. My idea is particularly to get the rate of freight between ' 
 Chicago and here. What would you get per ton per mile, and what 
 would the river get per ton per mile, in your prorating t 
 
 Answer. I think, on an average through the year, we should get 
 •about a cent and a half per ton per mile. I think we can do the busi- 
 ness for that, and that they can do it for half a cent a ton. Three to one, 
 as I say, would be about it. We are forced to that, as you are aware, 
 by competition. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 899 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. How much is your through freight ? 
 
 Answer. From (Jhicago here, to-day, would not exceed 60 cents per 
 100 pounds. 
 
 Question. How much do you get per 100 pounds from here to Chicago? 
 
 Answer. By water and rail I could take it to-day for 35 cents a hun- 
 dred, and by rail all through 55 cents. 
 
 By the CHATRMAN: 
 
 Question. Tour rates from Chicago here by rail and water would be 
 about equal from Chicago to New York f 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; we beat New York. We carry flour and pork and 
 bacon. I think they are charging from 73 to 76 cents. We could carry 
 wheat much better. We would put wheat in bulk lots, because we are 
 allowed to do that by law ; but 55 cents will cover the average of fourth- 
 class freight ; that is, by whole car-loads. From here to Chicago on 
 imported goods, we could take them easily at 40 cents a hundred pounds 
 by water and rail, or at 50 cents by all rail. I have given 55, because I 
 would rather furnish the extreme than the inside figures. Allowing the 
 boat four-tenths, freight can be carried from here to Chicago at 40 cents, 
 and money can be made. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : . 
 
 Question. You get about six times as much as they do per ton per 
 mile ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; we pay them 15 cents out of 45. 
 ' Question. You carry one-fourth of the aggregate distance ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. And 'you get two-thirds of the aggregate pay? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; we get one-third more than they do. We get six- 
 tenths and they get four-tenths. We get six-tenths out of any freight 
 we take from here to Chicago. 
 
 Judge Kennard : I desire to call the attention of the committee 
 to a matter which is closely connected with the transportation ques- 
 tion. The Mississippi and Dominion Steamship Company of this place 
 own and run seven steamships from here to Liverpool, and they have 
 paid for their own warehouse about $25,000, and have obtained a per- 
 mit from the Secretary of the Treasury to make it a bonded general- 
 order warehouse, which they understood is a common thing in all the 
 northern cities. They are refused the privilege of having it as such 
 by the deputy collector of this place. 
 
 Mr. Sherman : We ought to know the reason of that refusal. 
 
 Captain Weeks : We bought this warehouse for the benefit of our 
 line. We have come here and spent $25,000, and will probably spend 
 625 000 more on the property. It is for the benefit of our steamers, so 
 that they can discharge without any detriment to the line. It is 
 abreast of where our ships lay. Our application went in to the Secre- 
 tary of the Treasury for a general-order bonded warehouse, class- 3. It 
 was accepted by the Treasury, and bonds were made out and signed, 
 and went on and they were correct. It came back, and after we had 
 conformed to all the rules, Mr. Herwig, the deputy collector, told us we 
 could not have it as a general-order warehouse, but as a bonded ware- 
 house class 3. It was only for our own steamers that we asked. 
 By Judge Kennard : 
 
 Question. Why was that refusal made ? 
 
 Answer. He says that it rested with the collector of the port. He 
 had that privilege of appointing whom he thought proper. 
 
900 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Question. Did the Secretary designate you for a general-order ware- 
 
 °Answer. Our application was accepted as a general-order warehouse. 
 
 By Judge Kennard : 
 Question. In other words, the order was modified by the interposition 
 of the officers of this port ? 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Colonel Tucker : T will say, Mr. Chairman, that there is somebody 
 in the custom-house who owns all the bonded warehouses in town, by 
 which all of us, shippers from here, who import and receive nearly all 
 the bonded goods, do not receive the necessary facilities. There is 
 something thrown in the way, and we never have any goods come that 
 do not go to a particular warehouse, and if we forget for one minute to 
 get them at the custom-house, they go into that warehouse. 
 
 New Orleans, La., December 30, 1873. 
 
 James B. Quinn, first lieutenant Corps of Engineers, United States 
 Army. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Have you been connected with the survey of the proposed 
 Fort Saint Philip Canal ? 
 
 Answer. Not directly. 
 
 Question. Have you had any occasion to examine into the history of 
 this enterprise ? 
 
 Answer. I have, as a matter of general interest in the office. 
 
 Question. Please state what you know about it, its origin, and the 
 surveys that have been made, and the references to them, giving years, 
 &c. 
 
 Answer. As to the history, I know it dates back nearly a hundred 
 years. I cannot run it back further than what has transpired in the 
 office since I have been there, for the past year or so. I know that a 
 survey was made, the last one under the direction of Major Howell, by 
 Lieutenant Adams, of the Corps of Engineers, and all the data upon 
 which the present estimates are based are obtained through means of 
 that survey. Of course the selection of position depended upon the 
 recommendations which have been made years before, and the advisa- 
 bility of the construction of the canal has resulted from a consultation 
 with the best authorities in regard to engineering. 
 
 Question. Please give us the reference to the various reports on the 
 subject made by your corps ? 
 
 Answer. I don't think I can state the years. Various reports have 
 been made on the work by different parties of the Corps of Engineers, 
 and others have been made to the State of Louisiana by civil engineers. 
 The dates and references are included, I think, in Major Howell's report 
 on the Fort Saint Philip Canal, of 1872, to the Chief of Engineers. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 Question. "What do you propose to do ? What is the nature of your 
 canal; how long, how wide is it, how much will it cost ? What is the 
 plan of the canal? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 901 
 
 Answer. The canal is to pass from deep water of the Mississippi Paver 
 to deep water on the Gulf of Mexico. It would be about six miles in 
 length, with a lock at the Mississippi end of the canal and a guard-lock 
 at the Gulf end. 
 
 Question. A lift-lock at the river ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. The lock proper is at the river end, and a guard- 
 lock to be used simply in case of hurricanes or extraordinary storms in 
 the Gulf, to prevent the sea washing in and filling up the excavated 
 channel with sand and other material. The lift-lock is to be situated 400 
 feet from the banks of the river. The last decision of the board in re- 
 gard to the extent of it was that it was to be 500 feet in length and 65 
 feet in. width, with 27 feet of water over the miter-sills. The rise of the 
 river above the level of the Gulf at this point is about 5 feet, which 
 would represent the extreme lift of the lock. At periods of very low 
 water it would be much less than this, say 2J to 3 feet. The object of 
 this lock is to avoid the difficulties of the bar at the mouth of the river. 
 It is continually accumulating from the deposit caused by the material 
 in suspension in the water being deposited from the current, being ar- 
 rested while in an exposed condition, where it would be difficult to re- 
 move it sufficient to contain a depth that would answer the require- 
 ments of commerce. If this water was allowed to pass into the canal, 
 it would of course cause a, deposit, and the object of the lock is to 
 detain the water from passing into the canal, and pass this water that 
 passes into the lock necessary to give the rise, to permit vessels to 
 enter the river from the Gulf into exterior channels, and avoid this de- 
 posit in the canal. 
 
 By Mr. Oonovbr : 
 
 Question. Explain how you will prevent the deposit in the canal, and 
 prevent it filling up from the waters of the Mississippi ? 
 
 Answer. The object of the lock was to prevent the waters of the Mis- 
 sissippi from entering into the canal, and enable us to pass only so much 
 water as was necessary to enable vessels to enter into the Mississippi 
 into the lock, and, after the vessel had passed into the Mississippi 
 to discharge the Mississippi water into channels outside of the canal, 
 and thus allow it to make its escape to the sea without forming any 
 deposit in the body of the canal. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Give the dimensions of the canal. 
 
 Answer. The trunk of the canal is calculated to be 200 feet wide at 
 the bottom, with a depth of abouf. 30 feet. That would make it about 
 400 feet wide at the top— a slope of three to one. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Question. How are the sides protected from caving in ? 
 Answer. It is believed with this slope the sides will maintain their 
 slope, and not require anything except in places where they pass 
 through sandy deposits, where a revetting of sheet-piling will be re- 
 Question. What tests have you made of the earth between the. river 
 
 and *he Gulf t 
 Answer. Borings have been made to a depth or ove.r 50 teet. 
 Question. What do you find 1 _ _ 
 
 Answer. We find an alluvial deposit entirely, the upper portion being 
 
 a light alluvial, and the lower portion clay. 
 
902 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 Question. Black clay ? , 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; a blue clay— a bluish, color. It is not exactly me 
 blue clay of our Northern States, but approximates to that. Probably 
 in the course of time it will become indurated sufficient to form a hard 
 pan. It is a tough clay, but not very hard. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. How do you propose to protect the bottom of the canal 1 
 
 Answer. No protection is thought to be necessary for the bottom. 
 The depth of water would prevent any washing of the bottom of the 
 canal. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 
 Question. State the exact length between your locks, and how much 
 water you would want on either side in the Gulf and in the river. 
 
 Answer. That I am hardly able to give, more titan a general length 
 of six miles. That is the nearest I can come to it. The water at ttie 
 Gulf end of the canal will be over 30 feet. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. How far from your guard-lock will that depth of 30 feet be 
 reached, or will it be at your guard-lock ? t 
 
 Answer. It will be at the guard-lock. 
 
 Question. How far out into the Gulf does that extend from the land ? 
 
 Answer. That is indefinite. It increases from that. 
 
 Question. How far out from the present land will the guard-lock be 
 situated ? 
 
 Answer. It will be inside of Breton Island. 
 
 Question. How do you propose to protect the sides of this canal that 
 extends out into the Gulf? 
 
 Answer. By jetties. 
 
 Question. What reason, if any, have you to believe that it will not 
 fill up by a deposit of sand from the Gulf ? 
 
 Answer. The direction of the littoral currents are such as to prevent 
 any serious accumulations of deposit at the mouth of the canal, being 
 at right angles to the direction of the exit, but what little accumula- 
 tions would take place would be readily removed by use of a dredge, 
 dredging once every three months or as circumstances might require. 
 
 Question. Do you know of any measurements having been taken 
 through a series of years past, showing the deposits on this site ? 
 
 Answer. Nothing more than a general statement that within the last 
 one hundred years the depth of water has not changed at this place. 
 
 Question. From whom is that general statement obtained ? 
 
 Answer. That is on the authority of Major Howell. It is from exam- 
 ination and surveys made. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. What is the depth in the Mississippi ? 
 
 Answer. At the exit of the canal it would be 30 feet, but it drops 
 off rapidly from the termination to over a hundred feet. In the middle 
 of the river it is over a hundred feet in depth. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. How do you expect to keep the river water clean between 
 the Mississippi lock and the, river ? 
 . Answer. By dredging. But there would be no circulation of water 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 903 
 
 much in this portion of the river, and of course there would be but 
 little deposit. The main deposit that would occur would be directly at 
 the entrance, where an eddy would be formed by the currents of the 
 river ; but it wouldn't be of any great extent, and would be easily re- 
 moved by dredging at intervals. 
 
 Question. Is there anything in the formation of the river at that 
 point to make this a desirable or undesirable locality over and above 
 that of any other ? 
 
 Answer. It is desirable for this reason : it insures the permanency of 
 the banks ; the river has a straight reach at this point ; the current of 
 the river is parallel with the shore, and the abrading action of the cur- 
 rent would not amount to much if anything in this position. 
 
 Question. Do your estimates of cost contemplate any protection to 
 the banks of the river in the locality of the dam, to prevent its washing 
 out? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; it contemplates a protection. 
 
 Question. As to the roadstead on the other side, is it good or bad 1 
 
 Answer. It is an excellent roadstead. 
 
 Question. How is it protected? 
 
 Answer. It is protected by Breton Island and a point of land from 
 the southward. I forget the name of that point now. 
 
 Question. Is there any protection whatever at either of the three 
 mouths of the Mississippi now ? 
 
 Answer. There is no protection whatever. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. State as to the cost and time that would likely be required 
 to complete the work. 
 
 Answer. The cost is estimated at $7,500,000, and the time at three 
 years. This latter is, however, affected by the amount of money ap- 
 propriated each year. 
 
 Question. What is your estimate of the amount which should be ap- 
 propriated each year to make it a success in the time you speak of, or 
 the first, second, and third year ? 
 
 Answer. Three million dollars are estimated for the first year's 
 appropriation, and half of the remainder each succeeding year. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. That sum would enable you to work most economically, 
 would it ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Conover : 
 
 Question How would the entrance to the canal compare in point of 
 accessibility and safety to the present entrance to the river? 
 
 Answer. It would be much safer and would greatly facilitate the en- 
 trance of vessels to the river. 
 
 Question. How would it be safer ? 
 - Answer An entrance would be made from a sheltered locality, and 
 nn insured depth of water will always be found at the mouth of the 
 ranal whereas at the mouth of the river the entrances are exposed, 
 and it is difficult to maintain a proper depth of water Vessels are 
 liable to be grounded on the bar, and in such positions they are help- 
 less during periods of severe storms. 
 
 Question. You propose, then, to extend this canal beyond the bar, 
 
 do you f 
 
904 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. There is no bar after deep water is reached at the 
 end of the canal. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. State what would be the probable annual expense of keep- 
 ing the canal in working order after being completed, and what the 
 probable expense of the present system with 18 feet of water. 
 
 Answer. The expense of the present system is about $200,000 a 
 year. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. Do you embrace there the annual appropriation or the 
 wear and tear? 
 
 Answer. The annual appropriation and the wear and tear; it includes 
 everything; the renewal of the dredge-boats every five years. One 
 hundred and fifty thousand dollars is the present annual appropriation. 
 
 Question. Then you must renew your dredge-boats every five years? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. You have two ; what do they each cost ? 
 
 Answer. About $250,000 each. 
 
 Question. Then you have $500,000 worth of dredge-boats to wear out 
 every year, which gives you a hundred thousand dollars annual wear 
 and tear ? 
 
 Answer. Two hundred and fifty thousand dollars is the price of one 
 dredge-boat every five years. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. The annual expense of your present system gives you how 
 much water constantly ? 
 
 Answer. Without interruption from blockades instituted by private 
 parties, that would insure over 18 feet of water. 
 
 Question. How much over 1 
 
 Answer. Between 18 and 19 feet of water. 
 
 Question. Now as to the cost annually to the canal of keeping it in 
 condition and making it free to all vessels'? 
 
 Answer. I am hardly able to answer that question. 
 
 Question. Approximate to it as near as you can. 
 
 Answer. I think about $10,000 a year. 
 
 Question. That would cover all the expense? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; that would include the attendance of the locks 
 and removal of material that would be deposited at the entrance of the 
 canal. 
 
 Question. Your canal is suitable to pass the largest vessels, and it is 
 supposed that they may meet each other in it ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; of a width sufficient to pass the largest vessels. It 
 wouldn't, of course, pass the Great Eastern, but ordinary vessels en- 
 gaged in mercantile service and ships of war ; the largest we have. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. Would the operation of steam-power in the canal be any 
 particular detriment to it ? 
 
 Answer. 1 think not ; the great width would obviate that. 
 
 Question. Now, contrasting the two methods, that of the jettees and 
 that of the proposed canal, which would be the most easily defended 
 from an enemy 1 
 
 Answer. The canal. The canal would be capable of defense by per- 
 manent works, while the jettees would not admit of such defense. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 905 
 
 Question. Independent of permanent works, under the protection of 
 «in ironclad, wouldn't she lie to more advantage and be less exposed in 
 this protected harbor than in the open roadstead at the mouth of th& 
 jettees ? 
 ' Answer. She would be less exposed for the reason that she could take 
 advantage of the islands lying outside of the anchorage. 
 
 Question. Do you say that an iron-clad would more effectually protect 
 the mouth of the canal by reason of her lying under the protection of 
 Breton Island or the other point of land there, than if she undertook 
 to protect the mouth of the river lying in an open roadstead? 
 
 Answer. The advantages would be very much greater in a secluded 
 harbor than they would be in an open roadstead, if for no other reason 
 that the quiet of the waters would admit of accurate sighting of the 
 guns. But in addition, the natural protection afforded by the coast 
 would be very much in her favor. 
 
 Question. How would it be with reference to torpedo defense ? 
 
 Answer. The quietness of the waters would be very much to the ad- 
 vantage of a torpedo defense over a defense of a similar nature in an 
 open roadstead. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. How do you propose to do this excavation and embank- 
 ment? 
 
 Answer. By means of steam-dredges and steam-carriers to deposit 
 the excavated material at a safe distance from the edge of the cut. 
 
 Question. Will the soil make an enduring embankment ? 
 
 Answer. The soil will make an enduring bank. 
 
 Question. -What is the formation of the bank, or does that depend on 
 the amount of excavation f Is there any proposed width of the bank, 
 top and bottom ? 
 
 Answer. There is no proposed width of bank. It depends simply 
 upon the amount of material excavated. The height might possibly 
 be limited by the machines used to convey it. 
 
 Question. Will the excavation have to be carried beyond the reach of 
 the machines at any place ? Will it have to be again moved after being 
 deposited on the bank ? 
 
 Answer. It is not expected that the material will be moved twice. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. Do you propose to use the same process that they are using 
 up here in the city dredging-works f _ 
 
 Answer. Thev use a simple dredge for dredging there. 
 
 Question. And then they have a carrier besides ; is that your object? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. After the earth is lifted by the dredging-boat, how do you 
 carry it over far enough to be out of the way ? 
 
 Answer. By means of derricks or an endless chain-carrier. This por- 
 tion of the work will of course be done by contract. 
 
 Question. What objections are made by engineers to what is called 
 the jettee system? ..... „. . 
 
 Answer The want of permanency is the main objection. The im- 
 provement of rivers by a svstetn of jetties has been tried in very many 
 instances, and there are only two cases 1 think on record where they 
 mav be said to have been successful. One is at the mouth of the Dan- 
 ube and the other at the mouth of the Oder in Europe ; but circum- 
 
906 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 stances at these places are very different from what they are at the 
 mouth of the Mississippi. In the case of the improvement at the moutu 
 of the Danube, it has been found necessary to carry out the jetties year 
 after year to secure the desired depth of water, and then but 18 feet ot 
 water could be maintained. At the mouth of the Oder the works have 
 been more permanent ; but in this case no sediment is carried down by 
 the river. Deposits that occur at the ends of jetties are simply those 
 that occur from the sand being washed along the coasts by the littoral 
 currents. 
 
 Question. What difficulties are anticipated in closing the channels of 
 the stream ? 
 
 Answer. The secure character of the banks on either side of the 
 river would prevent such a means of improvement as to render the 
 formation of channels above the obstructions possible by the breaking 
 through of the water. 
 
 Question. How does the material at the mouth of the present channel 
 compare with the material through which you excavate to form the 
 canal? 
 
 Answer. Being more recently deposited, it is less compact. 
 
 Question. From the best information you can get, when was the 
 channel which you propose to excavate deposited in the formation of 
 the delta of the Mississippi? 
 
 Answer. The present rate of progress on the channels at the mouth 
 of the river is about a foot a day. That would be 370 feet a year. 
 
 Question. When was the ground that is now to be excavated depos- 
 ited, as near as you can ascertain? How long has it been deposited? 
 
 Answer. Somewhere in the neighborhood of six hundred years.' 
 
 Question. That is, provided the formation of the delta now is at the 
 same rate of increase? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Have you made such examination of the soil of the canal 
 as will test the character of the earth to be removed? 
 
 Answer. My personal observation is not on the line of the proposed 
 canal, but these five miles of the canal, Fort Jackson and Fort Saint 
 Philip, the deposits being identical in both places, from all the informa- 
 tion that I am able to obtain. 
 
 Captain Hiram Follett, pilot of the Mississippi Kiver and steam- 
 boat-master. 
 
 By the CHAIRMAN : 
 
 Question. Have you ever been connected with the Tow-Boat Associa- 
 tion? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. In what capacity ? 
 
 Answer. I have been a captain nine years. 
 
 Question. State what you know as to the mode of doing business of 
 that association, with reference to the detention or facility of taking 
 boats over the bar. In other words, whether, in any instance, it is to 
 the interest of the association to put a boat on the bar? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; it is to the interest of the Tow-Boat Association 
 to obstruct the bar, if there is an opposition boat; a small capitalist 
 having a boat employed, it is their interest to blockade the bar and 
 keep him from getting his vessel in or out, so that the association can 
 tire the man out and get the vessel to tow at their rate. That is my 
 experience in the matter. I have been there. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 907 
 
 Question. Do you know of any order ever having been given by the 
 authorities of that association for that purpose? 
 
 Answer. I have known of orders being given to masters managing at 
 the bar to take possession of the bar; for the Tow-Boat Association to 
 take possession of the bar, and also orders not to let the opposition 
 tow-boat get anything in or out. That is, any individual or small 
 capitalist. 
 
 Question. How would you prevent them from getting boats in or 
 out ? 
 
 Answer. That is the easiest thing in the world; by putting the ship 
 out of the channel. 
 
 Question. Putting which ship out of the channel? 
 
 Answer. The ship I had charge of; the ship that the tow-boats had 
 hold of. Give her a slew. 
 
 By Mr. Conovee : 
 
 Question. You have received such instructions as that while in the 
 employ of that company ? 
 Answer. I didn't say so. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. How do you happen to do such work as that? 
 
 Answer. We have a manager at the bar, having a tow-boat that man- 
 ages down there, and he gives the orders to the others, but that is tbe 
 way of doing it. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. I suppose you do not want a specific order to know what 
 they want you to do; you take a wink? 
 
 Answer. We have a little interest ourselves— the masters do. We 
 beat the owners once in a while. If we get a ship around there we 
 want to keep one hanging around the bar, so that we are employed all 
 of the year around. There are two sides to that question. If we keep 
 the bar clear, and keep the ships running in and out, we are laid up 
 and only get half pay, and have to walk around the streets. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. Didn't you take boats through by contract, and get the 
 same pay for doing it whether the time was long or short? 
 
 Answer. Sometimes; that would be due to circumstances. 
 
 Question. If you didn't do it that way, how were you paid? 
 
 Answer. By contract; at so much a tide, so much per hour, so much 
 per day, so much for the use of the hawser. 
 
 Question. T do not understand precisely yet how that affects com- 
 peting tow-boat men. If you put your boat upon the bar, was not that 
 against yourself rather more than against him? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. Why not? 
 
 Answer. We are able to wear him out. We don't care anything about 
 him. We buy a boat here to-day for $10,000, but make that concern 
 lose' a hundred thousand dollars before the fleet of ships gets out. They 
 buv them all out of the way, or wear them out. If I had this boat and 
 it is impossible for mo to take a ship down, I could never get that ship, 
 out I couldn't get down, and they would wear the captain of the 
 vessel out so that he would throw me aside and give the vessel to the 
 association. 
 
908 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By Mr. Oonovee, : 
 
 Question. Do you not know an instance where a tow-boat C0 PP^ 
 made a demand on the captain of a vessel on the bar to surrender inc 
 vessel to the tow-boat company, when the same vessel was easily drawn 
 off by Captain Freeman ? ^ , , _ nann 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; I know of a circumstance where the bark Francesca 
 was ashore between South Point and Southwest Pass, and the tow^ 
 boats went and looked at him, but would not take any action. Iney 
 advised the managers in the city, and the managers told them to go and 
 see if they could not get the captain of the bark to abandon her to the 
 tow-boat association, and while they were doing that and talking 
 around, Captain Freeman went out and got the vessel and pulled them , 
 off, and after I saw him get hold of her I went out in a boat myself, and 
 he says, " Here is the vessel;" and we were glad to get her out right. 
 We might have got a thousand dollars as easily as not, but we wanted 
 it all. All we got was the towage. 
 
 By the CHAIRMAN: 
 
 Question. How long has this combination been in existence ? 
 
 Answer. Since the 9th of December, 1867. It is broken up once in a 
 "while. They break it up just for a sham once in a while, to keep people 
 from abroad from embarking in this affair. They say, " Well, there is 
 nothing doing out there." That is to keep them from bringing boats 
 out here. 
 
 Question. Where did you usually meet incoming ships ? 
 
 Answer. Off South Point, about eight miles from the bar. 
 
 Question. What was the length of time required to tow an ordinary 
 vessel from the point you met her to New Orleans 1 
 
 Answer. That would be owing to circum£tances. 
 
 Question. Are instances of the kind which you related in regard to 
 the bark Francesca of common occurrence? * 
 
 Answer. I have known of a good many instances of that character. 
 I don't know anything about it before the war. I am only talking of 
 what has come to my notice within the last ten years. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. This organization was in existence before 1867 I 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir. The Government had charge of all- the boats in 
 1863. This organization went into effect in 1867. 
 
 ^Question. Was there no combination among the tow-boat men before 
 1867 ? 
 
 Answer. Not since the war; before the war there was. 
 
 Question. How long did it last 1 
 
 Answer. Five or six years, I think. They would break up once in a 
 while. A man would come with an opposition boat, and they would 
 buy him in. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. State the expense of towage before the war and now. 
 
 Answer. Tow-boats before the war were worth two-thirds more than 
 what they are at the present day, and they carried one-half crew more, 
 and they were of as much again power. Where one boat can tow two 
 ships, they. can tow four or five. It was owing to the tounage of the 
 ship ; the larger the vessel, the lower the rate. That was before the 
 ■war, as I say. Now it is the same thing all the way through, and small 
 vessels pay a big rate, about a dollar and a half. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 909 
 
 . Question. For towing up, or the round trip ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; that is per ton up. I think it is $1.30 for smaller 
 vessels. 
 
 By Mr. Davis: 
 . Question. What for down 1 ? 
 
 Answer. Forty cents. 
 
 A Bystander. It was 40 cents, but it is now 25. 
 
 The Witness. It is against the tow-boat association — and I am speak- 
 ing from what I know to be a fact — to have a canal, or to work Pass 
 a l'Outre to keep it open. A vessel that can sail in over there don't 
 require any tow-boat. She can sail up within twelve miles of the city 
 almost within the day. These are facts that I know. It is against them, 
 because they have not the conveniences at Pass a l'Outre that they 
 have at Southwest Pass, in the shape of station-houses, and wharves, 
 and telegraph-offices. Another cause is because a vessel can sail in 
 over the pass and sail up to English Turn, or to the city, if the wind is 
 fair. 
 
 Question. With a canal at Fort Saint Philip, couldn't these vessels 
 come within twelve miles always of New Orleans, or to this English 
 Turn? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; if the wind is fair. 
 
 Question. If vessels were once through the canal, would it be in the 
 power cf this combination then to drive off individuals? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; it is the bar. If you get them through the canal 
 into the river, they can sail up or be towed up for a hundred dollars. 
 
 Question. The tow-boat association would have no power over it ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; they would be all split up, and the work would be 
 done by small capitalists with no combination. The tow-boat company 
 have no use for any canal. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. Do the tow-boat association have one price for towing up 
 to New Orleans and another for towing across the bar and letting the 
 ship sail up? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; they don't do that kind of business. They take 
 you all the way through. 
 
 Question. Then they wouldn't pull you across the bar ? 
 
 Answer. O, no, sir. You would be all right then if they would do 
 that. Let me tell you another thing. If a small capitalist invests in a 
 steamboat and comes down here and goes out for a s ship, the tow-boat 
 association orders four or five boats to follow him around and tow the 
 ship up for nothing, sooner than let the small fish get it, and give the 
 captain a hundred dollars, if he wants it, besides. If they make an 
 arrangement to tow, they tow all the way up. They won't touch you 
 unless you tow all the way through. 
 By Mr. Conover : 
 
 Question. You say the tug-boat company will not make a contract 
 to tow a boat simply over the bar ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; they will not. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Question. You have been engaged with the tow-boat company ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. ^ * , ■ *, ,.« 
 
 Question Do you know the cost per day of working a boat I 
 Answer. Yes, sir. I saw Mr. E. A. York at one end of the bar and 
 
910 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Mr. Peter Marcy at the other, and they formed a hollow si^f 16 ',^ 
 "burnt both ends of the candle," as the old saying is, and they Kept 
 that bar, I think, five days that way, and neither one would stir, ana 
 they closed it up completely. York was on the upper side and Marcy, 
 I think, on the lower side, &c. I got York to go aboard of Marcy. 
 The faculty were down there, Marcy and York, and I took tneui 
 aboard, and they came to an agreement to clear the bar after lying 
 there five days. They closed it, and I was one of the captains who 
 did it. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Who are York and Marcy 1 
 
 Answer. Mr. Marcy is a big tow-boat man in New Orleans. E. A. 
 York is the manager of the association. They had four boats apiece. 
 They took vessels and dove-tailed them in the river, and just left a hol- 
 low square at the bar. They were then in opposition to each other. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. When was this ? 
 
 Answer. That was in 1806. 
 
 Question. Were those two men opposing tug-boat owners ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; they were tow-boat people. They were in opposi- 
 tion to each other. 
 
 Question. They were opposition tug-boat owners ?■ 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. This was for the purpose of preventing any boats from pass- 
 ing the bar ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; they just got Bulky with each other, and they closed 
 the business up. It wasn't to prevent anybody else, because they had 
 their ships at the lower end of the bar and York had his at the upper end. 
 
 Question. Could any vessels pass during this 1 
 
 Answer. No, sir, not one. They hauled the ship Montgomery up 
 alongside and made fast. She couldn't get in. 
 
 Question. Was the purpose of this to prevent the passage of boats 
 either way ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; it was just a fight between each other. One was 
 trying to worry the other out. 
 
 Question. The boats of one were above and the other below ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. The purpose was to prevent York from going up 
 and Marcy from going in. 
 
 Question. Did they afterward join ownership ! 
 
 Answer. They joined in association some time afterward. They 
 formed an association after that. 
 
 Question. Are they part of the present line? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; they are associated now. 
 
 Question. If a new tow-boat should be started in this navigation, 
 what impediments or obstructions ,would be thrown in their, way f 
 
 Answer. All ; every obstruction. I want to make that strong. 
 
 Question. Every impediment that was possible ! 
 
 Answer. Every impediment that was possible would be put in her 
 way. 
 
 Question. Even to the obstruction of the navigation f 
 
 Answer. In the first place, they would put five or six boats there 
 that were as fast as she was, and if she towecl for 40 cents a ton, they 
 would tow for 20. If she got a ship, and got her in on to the bar, they 
 would obstruct it in every way they possibly could to prevent her get 
 
TRANSPORT ATION TO THE SEABOARD. 911 
 
 ting her ship in. They would go to work and force her to take the ves- 
 sels at such a low rate, she taking the vessels for spite. She takes 
 them so low she cannot make any money, and they take the vessel to 
 town, and the association lies around, and the next one who comes 
 around they charge a dollar and a quarter. They let him go at a 
 rate he cannot live at, and the next ship that comes along they take at 
 full rates, and they force him into the association. 
 
 Question. How many tow-boats are there iu the association 1 
 
 Answer. Twenty-two. 
 
 Question. Are there any tow-boats now except those iu the associa- 
 tion. 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; they are all little river harbor boats. 
 
 Question. They have, then, a monopoly of the business ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. Captains are afraid to employ others and take a 
 
 small one-boat man, no matter how good his boat may be, and it might 
 
 be better than the others, for fear that he might be in difficulty and they 
 
 would tuck it on him and make him pay double- 
 Question. Have you had any difficulty with the tow-boat company ? 
 Answer. No, sir. I resigned two or three times, and they asked me 
 
 to come back again. I am employed by the Government at present — by 
 
 Major Howell, of the United States Engineers : 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. You are an experienced captain. What would be a fair com- 
 pensation for the towage of a vessel per ton, in your judgment, to make 
 a fair legitimate business, such as you could live by, paying the interest 
 on capital employed, and paying the labor. I mean the ordinary inter- 
 est, such as prevails — 8, 9, or 10 per cent. 
 
 Answer. I .suppose vessels could be towed up here and down for 75 
 cents a ton, 50 cents up and 25 cents down, because ships come here very 
 large, and they are very easy to tow. They are long ; they do not dis- 
 place much water, because their bottoms are small, and they do not 
 load deep. They are* easier to tow than smaller ones. 
 
 Question. Do you know what they charged for towage before the war 1 
 
 Answer. I think it was 80 cents a ton up. I have forgotten that, 
 however. 
 
 A Bystander. I have been told it was 60 cents. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman, (to the witness :) 
 
 Question. You were not in the service then, I suppose 1 ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. They charged less than they do now "? 
 
 Answer. Oh yes, sir, and they had better boats then, also. Up to 18 
 feet it is a dollar and a quarter now, and after that it is a contract. 
 They can charge you as much as they want to after that. 
 
 Questiou. Is not the navigation now much deeper over the passes 
 than it was before the war ! 
 
 Answer. About the same, I should judge. 
 
 Question. Did they ever keep the channel up to 18 feet until the 
 recent dredging 1 Was the old channel 18 feet before the war ? 
 
 Answer, At times, yes, sir. That would be owing to circumstances. 
 High or low water has a great deal to do with it. 
 
 Questions. Did your channels fill up during the war 1 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. Were they dredged open ? 
 
 Answer We had so many steamships going in and out that they 
 
§12 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 couldn't close; their wheels were digging all the time. At that time 
 General Butler had charge of this bar, and we had to go in the cnannei 
 all the time ; people had to go pretty straight. Those who got out 01 
 the channel went up here to Fort Jackson. We had a good bar. irue, 
 we didn't have ships going out drawing as big a draught of water, but 
 we had them coming in drawing as big a draught. I was tow-boating 
 here then. 
 
 Question. Would there be any practical difficulty, if the outlets were 
 tinder the charge of a military officer, to keep these boats in their tarn 
 and order ? 
 
 Answer. The mad-digger has this difficulty. All that the engineer 
 department asks is for the tow-boats to tow their vessels in and out at 
 high water, which is the proper time. The current is slack then, and 
 the dredge-boat will work at low water, because when she is working 
 she has more current, taking this sediment away to sea all the time. 
 They do not pay any attention to the request. The officer down there 
 will request the captain to hold up a certain length of time at low water, 
 when there is no possible means of getting vessels in and out, and they 
 get an order from the town here to go on with the work ; that it don't 
 make any odds about the dredging-inachine. She will go to work and 
 dig a channel 18 or 19 feet, pass in and out, and a ship passes in and 
 out with a nice channel as high as 80 feet wide. A ship comes down 
 here, tow-boats one on each side, and the ship will take a cant and go 
 across the bar and stop the mud-digger. That is the reason that the 
 mud-digger cannot get an opportunity to work. Nobody can dig any- 
 thing out where you stop them. You have got to dig right through the 
 ship. 
 
 Question. Then it is a contest whether or not at certain times the 
 mud-digger holds the channel, and at other times the vessel? 
 
 Answer. The mud-digger will always get out of the way and give any 
 assistance at all times, and is always ready to assist, and wants to work 
 with the tow-boat association in every sense of the word. That is my 
 experience. Captains of the tow-boats and captains of the mud-diggers 
 are always on very good terms ; but we don't know anything about 
 what goes on up above. The mud-digger will go out and in, drawing 19 
 or 20 feet of water ; and what is the reason a ship cannot go out there 
 the same size that she is "i They can easily enough. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. You say ships ought to pass here at high water ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. How long apart are those tides! How long would a ship 
 have to wait? 
 
 Answer. In this country, when the sun is south of the equator, it is 
 high water at night time, and when north, it is high water in the day 
 time. They generally start in with a flood tide. We have about four 
 hours good flood-tide, or five hours. That is the rising tide. 
 
 Question. How long would a vessel have to stay in or out to wait and 
 go with the tide and not interfere with the dredge-boat ? 
 
 Answer. I couldn't tell you that; that is owing to circumstances. 
 She wouldn't have to wait more than three or four hours, because 
 they commence getting under way generally about three hours before 
 the tide falls, getting ready. The detention never is much. 
 
 Question. Three or four hours ? 
 
 Answer. Two or three hours ; yes, sir. 
 
 •Question. How many tides are there a day 1 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 913 
 
 .Answer. Sometimes two in twenty-four hours, and sometimes only 
 oue. 
 
 Questiou. When there is but one tide a day, would she have to wait 
 but three or four hours "? 
 
 Answer. About that. 
 
 Question.. You spoke of the dredge-boat going through backward and 
 forward 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. • 
 
 Question. Couldn't the tows follow the dredge-boat through? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir, as well as she can follow her own track. They buoy 
 it out aud you cannot get out of the way. It is buoyed about thirty 
 yards apart. She goes down to 19 feet sometimes. I have seen her go 
 out drawing 19 feet. I have seen her cut through a 11-foot lump at 19 
 feet. 
 
 Question. When the dredge-boat goes in or out, and there are vessels 
 ready to go in or out, what is the objection to the vessels following the 
 dredge-boat through i 
 
 Answer. There is no objection. 
 
 Question. Do they do it ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. State whether or not a Government officer placed at the 
 bar would be an advantage or disadvantage to the commerce ; in other 
 words, state whether boats could come in and out with more system aud 
 regularity if there was a Government officer placed there in charge of 
 the pass. 
 
 Answer. That is exactly what they want, as they have at all other 
 places in the world. You want system, and you never will manage to 
 get vessels in and out without it. Where every one does as he chooses, 
 even if there was the best kind of feeling between steamboat owners 
 and everything else, you will always have a bad bar unless you have 
 somebody down there to manage that bar, because one man is bound to 
 try to get through the gate before the other man, no matter how good 
 feeling there may be between them. 
 
 Question. Do you know the expense of one of the tow-boats per day, 
 the entire cost to the company, including all that is on it and the coal 
 — say the largest boat 1 
 
 Answer. One hundred and ninety-two dollars and six cents, according 
 to a calculation I have made on a liberal scale, would be the amount : 
 Captain, $5 ; pilot, $3.33 ; engineer, $4.50 ; second engineer, $2.50 ; three 
 firemen, $5 ; two steerers, $2.30 ; two deck-hands, $2 ; cook, $2 ; boy, 50 
 cents; mate, $1.60; rations, $11.83; 150 barrels coal, $150; oil and tal- 
 ow, $1.50; total for twenty -four hours, $192.06. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. How long does it take one of those tug-boats to tow a ves- 
 sel in and out, if it could go right along ; I mean from the city down 
 and then bring one back ? 
 
 Answer. She ought to do it in about thirty-six hours easy. 
 
 Question. In and out, do you mean 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; that is, unless it is some big ship requiring two 
 
 Question. How many tons in small vessels can this tow-boat of which 
 you have spoken take up ! ■ . . , . 
 
 Answer. Three 1,500-ton ships easy, and take four down, it taking 
 her a little longer to do it. On a day like to-day she would take six. A 
 first-class boat averages three ships up and four down. They make the 
 58 TS 
 
914 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 vessel pay 25 cents of her down towage when she comes up, to keep 
 her from falling into the hands of any other party going down, xney 
 hold and claim that that is done so that the vessel cannot fall into tne 
 hands of anybody else. 
 By Mr. Oonover : 
 
 Question. In other words, they make them pay for the round trip 
 going up 1 ? * . 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir, to that extent; making them pay that amount m 
 advance. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. How much would that boat earn in the thirty-six hours 
 that you spoke of, in carrying vessels up and down ordinarily 1 I do 
 not mean one select trip, but the ordinary trip. 
 
 Answer. She will make four or five thousand dollars easily enough. 
 
 Question. That is thirty-six hours; you gave us the expeuse of 
 twenty-four hours. 
 
 Answer. You might say forty-eight hours, and then you will have 
 plenty of room. The wind being ahead might make some obstruction. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. That is, forty-eight hours from the time she leaves the passes 
 until she is back again 1 
 
 Auswer. Yes, sir; it will only take her thirteen, fourteen, or fifteen 
 hours to come up, and about ten or twelve to go down. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. When you were with that company, had you any means of 
 knowing how much they made each year; what their profits were? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; because the association is so fixed that you cannot 
 find out very well, especially a captain who don't own any stock, and if 
 he does he cannot find out then. But when I am running an opposition 
 boat, I know what I can make. 
 
 Question. State that. 
 
 Answer. Thirty per cent, a year easily enough, because we run very 
 differently from them. We don't have any managers or superintendents. 
 All you want is a captain to each boat. All you have to do is to go out 
 and get a ship and tow her to town, and get another one and tow her 
 down. But now they manage that in the city. W x hen there is opposi- 
 tion they have to send a man out to make money for them. 
 
 By Mr. Oonover : ' 
 Question. You mean they make $30 on $100 ? 
 Auswer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : . 
 
 Question. How much water do the boats draw ordinarily f 
 
 Answer. From 4J feet to 12 feet. Some large propellers draw about 12, 
 and some of the light side-wheel boats about 4 to 4J. 
 
 Question. What proportion of the time are those tow-boats employed, 
 and what portion of the time are they lying idle on the average 1 
 
 Answer. The year round, I suppose, one-half is tied up and the other 
 
 running, but they don't employ any captains or crew when they are laid 
 
 .up. They draw their proportional part of the money that is turned iu 
 
 from those that are running. Sometimes in the summer they are only 
 
 running two boats. They run just enough to meet the demand. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 915 
 
 Question. Have they sufficient boats for all seasons of the veto and 
 some idle ? 
 
 Answer. That I dou't know, sir. I know they are old boats, old 
 blockade-runners and vessels sold out of the United States Navy, &c. 
 
 Question. What is the average cost of their boats ? 
 
 Answer. They are worth about $25,000 apiece. If you sold them now 
 you could get but about $9,000 apiece for them. 
 
 Question. You stated a moment ago that you formerly were employed 
 by the tow-boat company, and are now employed by the Government, 
 and that you had resigned. State what pay they gave you and what 
 the (government pay you. 
 
 Answer. I got the same pay for going pilot that I did for going 
 captain. 
 
 Question. What is that pay ? 
 
 Answer. I believe it is $5 a day. 
 
 Question. You were here before the war, during the war, and, of 
 coiuse, you have been here since the war. I wish to know whether 
 there was as much water on the bar at the end of the war as there is 
 to-day — whether as large vessels could go in and out "? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; just the same. Everything is aboutthe same, that 
 I know of. I don't see much change any more than that the bar has 
 made out forward and changed a little to the east and west, gone to sea 
 farther. I don't see much difference as to the depth of the water. ■ 
 
 Question. Do I understand 'hat during the war there was no work 
 done on the bar and no dredge-boats there I 
 
 Answer. There was not. 
 
 Question. That was four or five years, and since then there have been 
 boats engaged; and since the war there is no difference in the depth of 
 the water? 
 
 Answer. That I wouldn't like to say. I have towed then and towed 
 since, but there is no doubt that there is more than there was then, but 
 it isn't managed as well, because at that time they had to go in the 
 channel, and they don't now. If you go down there to-day, you will 
 find a ship 40, 50, or 80 feet out of the channel. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. During the war the channel off over the bar was kept free 
 and a good draught of water on it by the constant transit of the United 
 States transports and vessels ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; that is it exactly. 
 
 Question. Suppose when the war ceased, and commerce had relapsed 
 to its present condition, the United States dredge-boats had not been 
 employed to keep the channel open, could you have had as much water 
 as you have now 1 
 
 Answer. I don't think we would. 
 
 Question. Then how much benefit do you understand the employ- 
 ment of these United States dredge-boats to be, in the way of keeping 
 the channel open f 
 
 Answer. They can cut lumps away. They have kept the channel per- 
 fectly straight, and it never was straight before. 
 
 Question. If those dredge boats were withdrawn and ceased to oper- 
 ate what would be the effect on that channel, and how much would 
 commerce be then obstructed ? 
 
 Answer. Ships wouldn't get athwartships of the bar ; there would be 
 large lumps made up in the eddies, and finally it would become a 
 breaker. 
 
916 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Question. Then the United States dredge-boats, at the present time, 
 answer the same purpose that the constant transit of the vessels ma 
 during the war ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; and as a plow to cut and destroy those lumps, or 
 wash them away. 
 
 By Mr. Oonover : 
 
 Question. You think that, being rid of this tow-boat monopoly, and 
 the obstructions which they place in the way of free navigation over the 
 bar, that a vessel drawing 18 or 20 feet of water could come over the bar 
 ■without difficulty with the use of the dredge-boats ? 
 
 Answer. I believe if there were two boats like those two mud-diggers 
 down there they could keep that channel open as easy as rolling off a 
 log. 
 
 Question. Then you think the obstructions placed in the way by the 
 tow boat monopoly are great; that the disadvantage owing to the tow- 
 boat monopoly is greater, indeed, than the bar itself"? 
 
 Answer. Well, I don't want to be too hard on them. 
 
 New Orleans, La., December 31, 1873. 
 
 Examination of General Cyrus Bussey : 
 
 General Bttssey. Mr. Chairman, on behalf of the Cotton Exchange I 
 have the honor to submit to you a brief report in print which contains 
 substantially the argument we desire to make before the committee. 
 We have no doubt that you have accumulated sufficiently all the informa- 
 tion which it is in our power to give you from other sources, and do not 
 wish to detain the committee with unnecessary statements, unless you 
 have some questions to ask. 
 
 The report reads as follows : 
 
 New Orleans, La., December 29, 1873. 
 To the Honorable Senate Committee on Transportation : 
 
 Gentlemen : Your investigation of the question of the necessity for cheap transpor- 
 tation and the improvement of the Mississippi River has no doubt placed in your pos- 
 session much statistical matter bearing on the question ; we therefore confine ourselves 
 to the following table, showing the quantity of cotton exported from New Orleans for 
 four years ending 31st August last, and the total crop raised for each year : 
 
 Exports 
 
 New Orleans. Total crop. 
 Sales. Bales. 
 
 Exported from New Orleans, to August 31, 1870 1, 185, 050 3, 114, 592 
 
 Exported from New Orleans, to August 31, 1871 1 , 541, 359 4, 347, 206 
 
 Exported from New Orleans, to August 31, 1872 1 , 087, 453 2, 974, 351 
 
 Exported from New Orleans, to August 31, 1873 1, 406, 026 3, 930, 508 
 
 The value of the cotton exported for the year ending 31st August, 1873—1,406,026 
 bales— is estimated to $118,700,738. 
 
 The rate of freight on cotton exported from New Orleans during the past year ruled 
 at fd. to Id. per pound, which is id. to -Jd., equal to i ceut to 1 cent per pound more 
 than vessels would charge if no obstructions existed at the month of the river. Ves- 
 sels have been detained so often, and frequently for weeks, at great expense, that high 
 rates of freight have to be charged to prevent loss. If we estimate the excess on 
 1,406,026 bales cotton, average weight 460 pounds, at id. or $ cent, we have $3,233,859, 
 which must be deducted from the value of the cotton, and borne by the producer; 
 
 Remove the obstructions at the mouth of the river, and make it possible for vessels 
 of larger draught to enter our port without fear of detention, and tonnage sufficient 
 for the wauts of our commerce would seuk this port, and take our cotton at id. or less 
 per pound, enabling buyers to pay t cent to 1 ceut more in gold for cotton than at the 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 917 
 
 present rate. If we add to this the excessive rate charged on all other articles ex- 
 ported from New Orleans, (the trade in many of which is materially curtailed from 
 tms cause,) and make reasonable allowance for the losses sustained by merchants fre- 
 quently having their cargoes detained for weeks on the bar, to the great inconvenience 
 ol all connected with the trade, we have a sum sufficient, now being borne, directly or 
 indirectly, by the producers, merchants, and manufacturers of the Mississippi Valley 
 and the North, each year, to construct the Fort Saint Philip Canal, and otherwise im- 
 prove the navigation of the river between this port and Saint Louis. 
 Respectfully, your obedient servants, 
 
 CYRUS BUSSEY, 
 THOS. H. HUNT, 
 JOHN PHELPS, 
 J. B. LAFITTE, 
 J. I. NOBLE, 
 M. W. JOYCE, 
 HARRISON WATTS, 
 Committee Neio Orleans Cotton Exchange. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 Question. Do you represent the Cotton Exchange ? 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. What expense are you put to in New Orleans for local 
 charges in shipping cotton'? 
 Answer. Do you mean the expense of selling cotton in this market ? 
 Question. Yes, sir. What is your usual commission for selling cotton ? 
 Answer. The commission on cotton is 2% per cent. 
 Question. What does that cover 1 
 
 Answer. That covers the receiving, and selling, and advancing. 
 Question. Does that cover the charge of compressing 1 
 Answer. No, sir ; that is a separate charge. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. Does it cover brokerage ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; that is a quarter per cent. There is a brokerage of 
 three-quarters per cent, paid to the broker who receives the cotton. The 
 one-fourth per cent, of that is paid by the factor, and one-half per cent, 
 by the buyer. 
 
 Question. Does the quarter per cent, paid by the factor come out'of 
 his commission of 2£ per cent. ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; it does not. 
 
 Question. It is charged to the owner of the cotton f 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. What is the aggregate charge to the producer? 
 
 Answer. Two and three-quarters per cent. There is a charge of 75 
 cents a bale for weighage, storage, and including sixty days storage if 
 necessary. 
 
 Question. Are those all the charges i 
 
 Answer. Those are all the charges. 
 
 Question. Do you make advances on cotton ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; we are expected to be in condition to pay sight- 
 drafts for about the full value of the cotton. 
 
 Question. What rate of interest do you charge for advances? 
 
 Answer. The rules are 8 to 10 per cent., according to the condition of 
 the money-market. Never more than 10 per cent. There is a large 
 amount of money advanced to the planters by the merchants of this 
 
918 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 city to make the crop, I should think, in the aggregate, amounting to 
 twenty or thirty millions of dollars a year. 
 
 Question. What is the rate of interest for advances'? 
 
 Answer. Usually 10 per cent. 
 
 Question. Is the money paid generally by English buyers here to you 
 directly ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Do they buy directly here % 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; we have representative buyers in our markets from 
 all markets in the world. We are selling cotton to-day to the Greeks, 
 to Prance, Germany, Switzerland, Spain, England, and in fact all the 
 markets of the world— to resident buyers who are here all the time. 
 
 Question. Do you charge commissions on advances besides the in- 
 terest ? 
 
 Answer. We never do. 
 
 Question. That is covered by your brokerage charge 1 
 
 Answer. That is covered by the 2J per cent. 
 
 Question. The charges made to the shippers you do not know as much 
 about, I suppose, as other gentlemen? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; I only know on general principles that the com- 
 pressing is paid by the shipper, and is deducted and is paid according 
 to the rate of freight. 
 
 Question. What is the charge for compressing ? 
 
 Answer. I believe it amounts to from 50 cents to $1 per bale, accord- 
 ing to the rate of freight. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Do you receive dispatches of the price of cotton abroad ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Is that carried on on the same principle as the corn and 
 wheat trade ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. In making purchases they deduct all cost of freight and 
 compressing ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; the party gets an order here for five thousand bales 
 of cotton, and he knows what he can afford to pay for it from Liverpool. 
 His order tells him to buy so many bales of cotton at eightpence-ha'penny, 
 laid down in Liverpool. He will calculate all the expense here, and the 
 balance he can afford to pay for the cotton. It sustains the argument 
 which I make in that report, that all the expense must first be provided 
 for, and if freights are a penny a pound, it takes just that much off the 
 cotton. If freights go down to a penny, we get that much more for the 
 cotton here. 
 
 Question. I judge that the rule is to deduct the probable largest ex- 
 pense arising from the longest delay ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. So that although a vessel may go through promptly you 
 really pay the most difficult capacity ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; and no doubt, as we have known from experience, 
 vessels are deterred from coming here in consequence of a probability 
 that they may be detained. We have frequently seen fleets on the bar 
 here for weeks at a time. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 Question. What proportion of your ' cotton is sold in New York and 
 Liverpool of what you receive here ? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 919 
 
 Answer. I think it is safe to say that 95 per cent, of all the cotton 
 received in New Orleans is exported to foreign countries. 
 
 Question. On the account of merchants here, or the New York mer- 
 chants ? 
 
 Answer. On orders from foreign countries. We do very little busi- 
 ness with New York. 
 
 Question. What would be the cost of cotton from Memphis to come 
 here and get on board ship 1 1 mean the entire cost connected with it, 
 including the freight from Memphis here, separating that from the 
 other charges. 
 
 Answer. The morning paper states they are bringing cotton from 
 Memphis at a dollar a bale today, which is less than a fourth of a cent 
 a pound. There is no other cost to accrue on the cotton coming here to 
 go to Liverpool over and above any other route. One dollar a bale is 
 the rate of freight now by steamer from Memphis to this port. 
 
 Question. Sum up all the charges after it arrives here on the wharf 
 until it is placed on board of the vessel, and she is ready to depart. 
 
 Answer. Cotton coming from Memphis here is generally compressed, 
 and there is no other charge. Cotton can come here from Memphis and 
 go right on to a ship without any charge, unless it is 15 cents a bale 
 drayage. A fourth of a cent a pound will cover the whole of it. 
 
 Question. Take cotton that is not compressed at Memphis ; take some 
 other point on the river 1 
 
 Answer. The expense would be no greater except the cost of com- 
 pressing. They receive the cotton from the steamer on the river, haul 
 it to the compress and compress it and haul it to the ship without any 
 charge, except theii charge for compressing. 
 
 Question. What is their charge ? 
 
 Answer. From 50 cents to a dollar a bale, according to the rate of 
 freight charged. 
 
 Question. You stated there was 2J per cent. ? 
 
 Answer. That would not occur on cotton coming from Memphis to be 
 shipped here. For instance, a party in this city can buy a thousand 
 bales of cotton in Memphis, have it shipped here and reshipped to Liver- 
 pool without any expense. 
 
 Question. What will it cost the producer from the time it strikes the 
 river until it leaves here for the foreign port; give the total expense 
 per pound ? 
 
 Answer. Take a lot of cotton from a plantation shipped to New Orleans 
 or to Memphis, and from Memphis here for sale, and the total expense 
 will average about a cent and a quarter per pound. That includes 
 freight, commissions, storage, weighing, drayage, and labor. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 Question. It includes insurance also ? 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; about 1| cents per pound. 
 
 By Mr. ShekmAN : 
 
 Question. Is that the difference between the price of cotton here on 
 shipboard from the up country and the price at Liverpool, about a cent 
 and a quarter a pound ? 
 
 Answer. It is intended to be just about that difference, of a cent and 
 a quarter a pound. 
 
 Question. That covers the freight and all % 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; all expense from the plantation here. 
 
920 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. Would not that charge vary very much in accordance with 
 the valuation of the cotton ? If it is a cent and a quarter at 13, what 
 would it be at 21 ? 
 
 Answer. At 20 cents the expense would be a cent and a half a pound. lam 
 taking it from the Mississippi and Memphis. If it comes from a tribu- 
 tary where a higher rate has to be charged, the expense is higher and 
 would amount to 2 cents a pound, where $4 a bale has to be paid for 
 freight, for instance. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. About what proportion do you receive by water and by 
 rail! 
 
 Answer. About four-fifths of the crop of cottou is received here by 
 steamboats. 
 
 Question. What is the difference in the charges on cotton from Mem- 
 phis, and an equal distance in the country by rail ? 
 
 Answer. They are about the same ; they run in competition with 
 each other. They carry cotton by rail from Memphis here for a dollar 
 and a quarter a bale. 
 
 Question. Does that come compressed ? 
 
 Answer. Sometimes it is compressed and sometimes without compress- 
 ing ; they carry it either way. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Have they adopted the system of barge transportation for 
 cotton ? 
 
 Answer. There has been some cotton brought here this season by 
 barges at a lower rate of freight, and we have recently believed that it 
 can be made successful. 
 
 Question. Have you any objection to that system 1 
 
 Answer. Not at all. 
 
 Question. Does it not lessen the rate of insurance somewhat ? 
 
 Answer. There has been no discrimination made in insurance, but if 
 we had iron barges it undoubtedly would lessen the rate of insurance. 
 We have agitated the question of iron barges here, but have not suc- 
 ceeded in getting them in operation. 
 
 Question. I see large cargoes of cotton landed from the steamers on 
 the levee ; are they not very much exposed to danger by fire? 
 
 Answer. It would appear so from observation, but experience proves 
 that it is not hazardous. Very few cargoes are destroyed. 
 
 Question. What is the rate of insurance coming from Memphis here? 
 
 Answer. Three-quarters of one per cent. 
 
 Question. How many days is it iu coining from Memphis here? 
 
 Answer. Usually about four days. 
 
 Question. Is not that a very heavy rate of insurance for four days'? 
 
 Answer. Well, sir, cotton is exposed, and sometimes frequently for a 
 week or two weeks at a time is liable to be tied up. The river has been 
 in bad condition, and it is regarded as low a rate as insurance com- 
 panies can afford. • 
 
 Question. Does that cover the marine-risk, as well as the risk by fire ! 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. Even after the cotton is discharged on the wharf, 
 if it should burn up it would be paid by the insurance companies. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 Question. Is there any difficulty attending the receiving and shipment 
 of cotton this year that ought to be remedied? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 921 
 
 Answer. It would be a pretty long story to go into all the evils that 
 are complained of here. 
 
 Question. 1 did not intend to elicit a long story, but if there are diffi- 
 culties, we should like to know what they are. 
 
 Answer. The principal difficulties are those connected with the mouth 
 of the river, and the necessity for the use of tow-boats to bring vessels 
 here, and the very high rates which are charged. That causes these 
 port-charges on sailing-vessels to be higher than they ought to be. We 
 ought to have such improvements as would enable us to get vessels 
 from the mouth of the river here for a great deal less money than is 
 now being paid. 
 
 Question. Is there any other difficulty ; anything connected with the 
 town, with the wharf-system here, or the movements in town ? 
 
 Answer. Nothing that I think of that is necessary to refer to at pres- 
 ent. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. How are the landing facilities here, as provided by the 
 municipal authorities ? 
 
 Answer. Well, sir, we have a pretty good wharf, but it needs to be 
 enlarged and repaired. 
 
 Question. Is the system expensive to keep up and maintain ? 
 
 Answer. It is very expensive. 
 
 Question. Are the revenues derived from wharfage appropriated to 
 any other purpose than their maintenance and repair ? 
 
 Answer. I believe they are used in the general budget for whatever 
 expenses the city has, and they are not set apart exclusively for the 
 repairs of the wharves. ' 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS : 
 Question. They are not ? 
 Answer. I think not. 
 
 Mr. West. That is General Bussey's belief; I know that they are. 
 Mr. Bussey. Oh, I do not profess to be authority on the subject. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Is there any complaint made about their being excessive ? 
 
 Answer. There has been complaint. There is a complaint of that 
 kind. 
 
 Question. What would be the wharf-charges on such a vessel as the 
 Eobert B. Lee, lying at the landing, loaded with cotton ? 
 
 Answer. I do not believe that 1 can answer that question. 
 
 Question. Tou do not know how much per ton ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. West. As we are upon this question of wharfage, and there is 
 something of a conflict of opinion, I would like to ask Mr. Kennard a 
 question. (To Judge Kennard.) State whether you are aware of the 
 appropriation of the revenues derived from the wharves ; for what pur- 
 pose is the money used ? 
 
 Judge Kennabd. My understanding is that they are used exclusively 
 for the keeping of the "wharvfes in repair, and that the revenue derived 
 from wharfage is not a source of revenue to the city generally. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Is that by law or custom ? 
 
 Answer. I believe by law. I would not be positive as to that, but 
 that is the uniform custom. If the fund is diverted from that purpose, 
 it is an illegal diversion. 
 
922 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. Is the fund deposited to a particular credit, or to the State, 
 or city credit generally ? _ 
 
 Answer. It has nothing to do with the State at all. It is deposited to 
 the credit of the city. Whether tbere are ear-marks on that particular 
 fund, I am not able to say. Unfortunately there is a little looseness in 
 that matter. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Can you say whether the rates which have been given us 
 for wharfage are, or are not, sufficient to pay the ordinary current re- 
 pairs of tlte wharf? 
 
 Answer. I think they are not. The case of New Orleans is a very 
 exceptional one, so far as the expense of keeping up the wharves is con- 
 cerned, and it is unfair to make a comparison between New Orleans and 
 any other city of importance in the United States that I know of on that 
 subject. We have constantly to extend the wharves; owing to the 
 accretions from time to time, and the decay is more rapid in this climate 
 than iu the North. The repairs are one of the heaviest taxes we have. 
 . They are very heavy. 
 
 Capt. A. K. Miller recalled. 
 
 Examination by Judge Kennard : 
 
 Mr. Kennard. I merely wish to complete evidence which was com- 
 menced the other day with reference to this bonded warehouse matter. 
 It was stated in the testimony the last time the committee met that an 
 application had been made by Mr. Weeks, who is the agent of the 
 Mississippi and Dominion Line of steamers, to the Secretary of the 
 Treasury for a permit to establish a general-order bonded warehouse. 
 That application was approved by the Secretary of the Treasury, and I 
 offer copies of the documents that were received, and also the original 
 document from the Secretary of the Treasury. 
 
 New Orleans, La., November 1, 1873. 
 Sir : I have the honor to request permission to bond the premises known as " The 
 Mississippi and Dominion Steamship Warehouse." No. 748 to 754 Tchoupitoulas street, 
 between Jackson and Philip, foorth district, city of New Orleans, to be a bonded ware- 
 house under class 3, for the purpose of facilitating the discharge of steamers of said 
 line under general order, free of expense to consignees, in such sum as you may deem 
 proper to secure the revenue, and herewith inclose proper insurance certificate as to 
 the fitness of the building sought to be bonded as a warehouse. 
 Very respectfully, 
 Hon. Secretary of the Treasury, 
 
 Washington, D. C. 
 
 Treasury Department, 
 Washington, D. C, November 13, 1873. 
 I have received yonr letter of the 8th instant inclosing the application of Silas 
 Weeks, and the requisite certificates, for permission to bond the premises known as 
 the "Mississippi and Dominion Warehouse," No. 748 to 754, Tchoupitoulas street, in the 
 city of New Orleans, La. ; the same being a brick dwelling, 84 by 88 feet, as a ware- 
 house, class 3, for the storage of dutiable merchandise in bond. 
 In reply thereto, you are respectfully informed that the application is approved. 
 You are hereby authorized to take proper bond, in duplicate, in such sum as will se- 
 cure the revenue, and transmit the same for the consideration of the Department. 
 The requisite blanks are herewith inclosed. 
 I am, very respectfully, 
 
 WM. A. RICHARDSON, 
 
 Secretary. 
 James T. Casey, Esq., 
 
 Collector of Customs, New Orleans, La. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 023 
 
 The bond required, Captain Weeks informed me, has been furnished. 
 He will testify as to that himself. He alleges that he has not been able 
 to avail himself of this privilege derived from the Secretary of the 
 Treasury by reason of the intervention of the deputy-collector of this 
 port. 
 
 y Examination of Captain Miller : 
 
 Question. Is there any necessity that parties shipping goods by a line 
 of steamers tihat own one of these general-order bonded warehouses 
 should store those goods in that warehouse I 
 
 Answer. Do you mean the necessity on the part of the consignee of 
 storing in the warehouse owned by the steamer ? 
 
 Question. Tes, sir. 
 
 Answer. I do not know that there is any necessity for storing in that 
 particular warehouse more than any other. 
 
 Question. I want to know whether there is in that particular ware- 
 house I 
 
 Answer. The warehouse being opposite or near by the ship insures 
 the safety of the goods by protection from weather and from stealage, 
 and they have the privilege of allowing them to remain three days free 
 of any charge, which would enable them in the meantime to pass the 
 necessary entries, &c. The warehouse, as it were, becomes a part of 
 the ship. 
 
 Question. Is there any restriction upon the choice that the consignee 
 might see fit to make by reason of this line of steamships having a 
 bonded warehouse? In other words, is there any compulsion as to 
 storage in that particular warehouse ? 
 
 Answer. In the particular bonded warehouse of the ship do you 
 mean ? 
 
 Question. Tes, sir. 
 
 Answer. Well, I cannot say for myself, never having owned a ware- 
 house for our steamers. I have none, and I have none in view at 
 present. 
 
 Question. Would, or not, a consignee within the three days that the 
 freight is allowed to remain free of charge in such a warehouse be at 
 liberty to remove it to any other warehouse of his choice ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; my impression is that he would. Of course, pro- 
 viding his duties are paid, and he satisfies the customs requirements. 
 
 Question. What is necessary to complete the right of this line of 
 steamers, as you understand, from a knowledge of the commercial 
 business of this city — the right which is accorded this company by the 
 letter which you have heard read from the Secretary of the Treasury ? 
 
 Answer. The privilege of a general order. 
 
 Question. By whom can that be granted alone 1 
 
 Answer. I presume by the Department at Washington, or the author- 
 ities here by instructions from Washington. 
 
 Question. Are there any advantages connected with having a ware- 
 house near the place where the ship lands ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; a great advantage. 
 
 Question. Please state what. 
 
 Answer. We have at this port no protection for goods upon the levee 
 after they are landed excepting from tarpaulins, which are very insuf- 
 ficient especially during heavy rains, where we have wind. Sometimes 
 thev get blown off in the night; the hot sun also damages goods. If 
 thev are immediately run into a warehouse from the ship's side all that 
 difficulty is avoided. We are able to lock them up at night, and watch 
 
924 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 them much better. It also clears the wharf, and enables the ship to 
 have more room to discharge and receive her cargo. With steamers we 
 sometimes are discharging and loading at the same time. It blocks our 
 wharf very much if we are compelled to land everything on the wharf. 
 
 Question. How many general-order bonded warehouses are there in 
 New Orleans ? 
 
 Answer. I really could not say. I am not familiar enough with the 
 number to state. At present I do not know, of my own knowledge,' of 
 but two. 
 
 Question. Who are the owners of those 1 
 
 Answer. One is owned by Mr. Chambre6sy. The other is the Gov- 
 ernment warehouse — what they call No. 6. 
 
 Question. Who is the owner of that 1 
 
 Answer. I could not say. The only private individual warehouse 
 that I know of is Mr. Ohambre^sy's. 
 
 Question. Is there or not a saving of drayage by reason of tfie ware- 
 house being close to the landing ? 
 
 Answer. I should say there was. Never having had these drayage 
 bills to pay, I could not say positively. I know, as applied to the other 
 goods, the drayage is governed by the distance. Those are bonded drays 
 which do this hauling, and we do not control them. 
 
 Question. Is there any saving of loss from breakage and stealage by 
 reason of having the wharves near the landing 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; for the reason that we have the goods immediately 
 under the eye of the steamship agent, or his employes. Where they 
 are hauled a loog distance they are subject to damage occasionally by 
 going over the pavements and by reason of rain. I have in some 
 instances myself had controversies with consignees through goods being 
 damaged during the rain, not being properly covered on the passage 
 from the ship to the warehouse, where the steamer has laid a long dis- 
 tance fron* it. 
 
 Capt. Silas Weeks, recalled. 
 By Judge Kennard. 
 
 Question. You are the agent of the Mississippi and Dominion Line 
 of steamers'? 
 
 Answer. I am. 
 
 Question. You are the party who made this application to the Secre- 
 tary of the Treasury ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Have you furnished the bond required by the letter which 
 has been heretofore read to the committee? 
 
 Answer. I have. 
 
 Question. What stands in the way of your perfecting the arrange- 
 ment that you have proposed to make 1 
 
 Answer. Getting permission from the collector of the port is all that 
 stands in the way. 
 
 Question. Have you made application for that permission ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; a number of times. 
 
 Question. Have you been refused ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; on this ground, that we would have to wait until 
 the collector returned. The deputy collector has told us that it was not 
 in his power. 
 
 Question. How long has it been since you made your first application 1 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 925 
 
 Answer. About two months ago. It was at the time that we got the 
 warehouse bond. 
 
 Question. Has your warehouse been of any avail to you since ? 
 
 Answer. It has not. It has been closed. 
 
 Question'. What is the cause of that 1 
 
 Answer. By not having the general order given us, as our application 
 called for. 
 
 Question. How many general-order bonded warehouses are there in 
 the city of New Orleans ? 
 
 Answer. I am aware of only one. 
 
 Question. You only know of one ? 
 
 Answer. That is all, sir. 
 
 Question. Who is the owner of that ? 
 
 Answer. I could not say. It is No. 6 warehouse. 
 
 Question. Under whose management and direction is it 1 
 
 Answer. I presume it is under the direction of the custom-house here. 
 
 Question. Do you know of any private parties interested in it ? 
 
 Answer. I do not. 
 
 Question. When this permit has been perfected and your house is 
 open, do yon have any such control over the goods which you bring to 
 this port as to compel their storage in your warehouse ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; we put it into our warehouse, and it can remain 
 there three days, free of all charges. If the consignee of the goods 
 thinks proper to take them out, he is at liberty to do so without charge. 
 
 Question. After three days they pay what ? 
 
 Answer. A month's storage. 
 
 Question. Are there any advantages connected with drayage by 
 reason of the warehouse being close to your landing ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; there would be no drayage. 
 
 Question. What are the advantages in the way of facilitating the 
 commerce of the place ; does it expedite your unloading? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; if we could commence work as soon as the ship 
 was entered at the custom-house, although we can do that now. We 
 have that privilege. But it has cost us something to pay for that dray- 
 age. As a general thing we have paid from a hundred to a hundred 
 and fifty dollars to the party who has the control of the warehouse for 
 drayage, until within the last two or three ships. 
 
 Question. What additional delay is occasioned by your not having a 
 general-order bonded warehouse; is there any delay resulting from 
 your not having said general-order bonded warehouse under your owu 
 
 control ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; I do not know as there is delay so iong as ware- 
 house people take their goods away as fast as we put them up, but stiil 
 it discommodes many of the merchants to ha 7© their goods go to the 
 general-order warehouse. 
 
 Question. In a word, will it cost the consignor or the consignee of 
 any goods coming by your steamers more to pass through your ware- 
 house than through any other in the city ! 
 
 Answer. It would not. 
 
 Question. Have you any particular case in which you have su tiered 
 inconvenience ? Do you remember the ease of the steamer Texas 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. State to the committee what happened with reference to 
 
 her 
 
 Answer. When she was libeled the goods had to go into general 
 order by the order of the United States marshal. If our steamer could 
 have been put up alongside of our warehouse we could have put it into 
 
926 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 our own warehouse free of all charge; that is, free of the cost of dray- 
 age and such like charges. Of course, if it remained there after a cer- 
 tain length of time there would toe the storage only on it. 
 
 Question. Where did the goods go on the Texas ? 
 
 Answer. Part into No. 6 warehouse, and they gave theii>bonds on 
 part, and took them from the levee. But a great portion went in No. 6 
 warehouse, I believe. 
 
 By Mr. SHERMAN : 
 
 Question. Where is No. 6 warehouse located ? 
 
 Answer. It is on the corner of Julia and Front Levee street, or some- 
 where ; I do not know exactly where it is. 
 
 Question. Near the wharves'? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; it is down near the levee. 
 
 Question. What effect do these delays have upon the western import 
 trade? 
 
 Answer. I think they have a great deal. 
 
 Question. State in what respect. 
 
 Answer. The difference of drayage between the ships and warehouse. 
 I think the custom here does permit western produce to remain on the 
 levee a certain length of time. 
 
 Question. In what way would the western import trade be facilitated 
 through New Orleans by the granting of this privilege to your line and 
 to other lines of steamers ? 
 
 Answer. It would be a privilege that they would have through bills 
 of lading to the West. 
 
 Question. Would- there be any loss of revenue to the Government"? 
 
 Answer. None whatever, that I am aware of. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. What expense attends the goods coming to No. 6 ware- 
 house before the merchant gets them, that would not occur on the goods 
 going to your warehouse'? 
 
 Auswer. I am not aware what expense there would be. I do not 
 know whether they charge drayage or not. I am not aware what 
 charges they have. 
 
 Question. You do not know the cost ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; I do not. If it went into our warehouse it would 
 be free of drayage. 
 
 Question. Is there any other reason assigneH for not carrying out the 
 order of the Secretary of the Treasury, than that the collector of the 
 port was not here ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir \ it rested with .that collector of the port to appoint 
 whom he thought proper — to appoint what warehouse he thought 
 proper as a general-order warehouse. 
 
 Question. You applied to the deputy collector ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 . Question. You applied to him to carry out the order of the Secretary 
 of the Treasury, after having given the bond ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. What was your answer? 
 
 Answer. It was, for me to wait until the collector came, and then we 
 would see what could be given. 
 
 Question. You have stated that you applied several times ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 \ Question. Was that the answer each time? 
 \ Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 927 
 
 By Mr. Conover : 
 Question. How many times did you apply? 
 Answer. As many as three or four times. 
 
 By Mr. Dayis : 
 
 Question. Did the deputy collector tell you when he thought the col- 
 lector would be here ? 
 
 Answer. He did. 
 
 Question. When did he say? 
 
 Answer. At different times. Each time had a different date. When 
 I first made my application he thought that the collector would be here 
 in ten or fifteen days. 
 
 By Mr. Conover : 
 
 Question. Is the collector generally here ? 
 
 Answer. He has not been here for some time ; how long, I cannot say 
 exactly. He has not been here for the last two or three months. 
 
 By Mr. Dayis : 
 
 Question. Do you know what proportion of the time the collector 
 lives here, or stays away ? 
 
 Answer. I do not. 
 
 Question. Who is the deputy collector ? 
 
 Answer. Mr. Herwig. 
 • Question. Do you know whether any one connected with the deputy 
 collector has an interest in either of the warehouses? 
 
 Answer. I am told that Mr. Herwig's brother has an interest in the 
 warehouse. 
 
 Question. What warehouse ? 
 
 Answer. No. 6. 
 
 By Mr. Conoter : 
 Question. Do you know that ? 
 Answer. I do not know it to be the fact. I am told so. 
 
 By Mr. Dayis : 
 Question. Is No. 6 warehouse the one that the goods here are gener- 
 ally sent to ? 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. Unclaimed goods put into your warehouse, if N you had the 
 privileges there of general order, would pay no drayage. you say ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question When they were entered, at the expiration of three days, 
 and the merchant entering them desired to put them in some other 
 bonded warehouse, would you charge storage ? 
 
 Answer. Nothing whatever. 
 
 Question When you made your application to the collector tor a 
 bonded warehouse, under this authority from the Secretary of the 
 Treasury did he offer to give you the privilege of a bonded warehouse, 
 exclusive of the general-order privileges ? 
 
 Answer. He did, sir. 
 By Mr. Dayis : 
 
 Question What advantage would it be to you and the merchants 
 here to have the goods go into your warehouse? 
 
 Answer. It would be a great advantage to us. We seldom have a 
 
928 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 ship come in here but we have more or less claims to pay on goods after 
 they leave the levee to go to the general-order warehouse, either by 
 damage, breakage, or in some other form. We have now two suits on 
 hand in relation to goods that were in perfect order when they left the 
 levee, but were in bad condition when the merchant received them at 
 bis store. 
 
 Question. They held you liable for that ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; for we get no receipt whatever. When it goes to 
 a general warehouse we cannot get any receipt, and we cannot produce 
 a receipt in court to show in what condition the goods were delivered 
 from the ship. 
 
 Question. Have you ever lost any goods in any way for which you had 
 to pay after yen landed them on the wharf 1 ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; I do not know as we have lost any goods, but we 
 have had to pay damages for breakage. 
 
 Question. Did you build the warehouse that you at present occupy ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; we bought it built and put repairs on it. 
 
 Question. For what purpose did you buy it U 
 
 Answer. For a general-order warehouse of class three. 
 
 Question. Had you any assurance before you bought it that you could 
 get a general-order warehouse ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. I thought we would be allowed the same privileges 
 tbat were allowed in New York or elsewhere. 
 
 Question. The same privileges that were allowed in other ports ! 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. The cau.se of your company buying the warehouse was, 
 that you believed it would facilitate your business and the business of 
 the merchants here ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; a great deal. 
 
 Question. How long have you owned it? 
 
 Answer. About four months; between four and five months. 
 
 By Judge Kbnnard : 
 
 Question. Did I understand you to say that when you deliver goods 
 from shipboard in this general-order bonded warehouse No. 6, that you 
 get no receipt i 
 
 Answer. We get no receipt. The custom-house officer gets a receipt. 
 
 Question. You have no receipt showing the condition in which they 
 were delivered 1 
 
 Answer. No, sir; it is the custom-house sends the goods. 
 
 Question. Do you give a receipt — if they are delivered in your 
 bonded warehouse, would you give a receipt showing the condition in 
 which they are received f 
 
 Answer. We have no one to give the receipt to, if it goes in under 
 general order. 
 
 Question. What difficulties arise with reference to the damage 1 
 Where damage occurs to goods how do you make proof of it '? 
 
 Answer. We cannot make proof, sir. 
 
 Judge Kennard. 1 merely wanted to call the attention of the com- 
 mittee to the fact that it is a very difficult thing to prove damage oc- 
 curring where the goods are delivered in this bonded warehouse, for the 
 reason that they do not give any receipt showing in what order they are 
 delivered. If they are delivered in the company's warehouse the coni- 
 \ pauy are responsible. 
 
 \ Captain Weeks. If it went into our own warehouse it would prove 
 "either that the ship or the warehouse damaged the goods; that they 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 929 
 
 E seTdamag^ 6 in the handS ° f the C ° mpany ' that is > other ™** 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 th?™S" Would you di8 t in gnish between the damage done before 
 uue gooas leave your possession and while they are in the possession of 
 tue fcrovernment warehouse ? 
 Answer. Ho, sir. 
 
 By Mr. West: 
 Question. You could tell if they were sea-damaged ? 
 Answer. O, yes. We have a port- warden who inspects every pack- 
 
 Question. Or, you could tell whether they were what is called stowage- 
 damaged I 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir. 
 
 Question. But whether there had been pilfering or barratry on the 
 snip ; that, of course, you could not tell ?. 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; of course, when they leave the levee in bad condi- 
 tion, we take note of it. 
 
 Question. Then you do scrutinize the order in which the goods are 
 before they go from your ship to the general warehouse, and endeavor 
 to protect yourselves in that way 1 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator West. Before Mr. Herwig proceeds to answer any questions, 
 I will say that he has submitted to me the rules that influenced his 
 conduct in the matter, and I briefly submit them to the committee, so 
 that they can be placed on the record. They read as follows. Prom 
 the revised custom-house regulations, part 5, Treasury Department, 
 October, 1868, now controlling the action of custom-house officers : 
 
 Article 4, class 3. Warehouses of this class shall he used solely for the storage of 
 warehoused goods, or unclaimed and seized goods, when ordered by the collector, and 
 shall consist of an entire building. 
 
 Under this regulation it would be perfectly competent for the col- 
 lector to designate this warehouse that Captain- Weeks desires as a 
 general-order warehouse, but the usage of the port of New York after 
 the very much prolonged controversy, that gentlemen here are aware 
 of, on the general-order system, had been established under date of 
 March 9, 1872, and had been approved by the Secretary of the Treasury, 
 and is considered the guide under which the collector here acts, there 
 is a special prohibition in those regulations, which have been approved 
 by the Secretary of the Treasury, against granting any such privilege 
 to a warehouse that is owned by a steamship company or by steamship 
 agents. I read from the regulations : 
 
 In addition to the warehouses hereinbefore designated, the agents of each line of 
 steamships regularly plying between this port and any foreign port, will be permitted 
 to designate any bonded warehouse of class 3, situated in the district in which then- 
 vessels regularly land, as the warehouse to which all unclaimed goods arriving by 
 their vessels respectively will be sent, but no such warehouses will be approved in 
 the control or management of which any steamship company or agent has any inter- 
 est. 
 
 Therefore it would seem, under these regulations, that the collector 
 is acting entirely in accordance with those rules. 
 
 On the 7th of July, 1873, the following petition was addressed, by a 
 large number of merchants here, among whom I recognize the leading- 
 importers of this port. It reads as follows : 
 59 TS 
 
930 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 The undersigned respectively indorse bonded -warehouse No. 6, class 3, on account of 
 its location, security, and general facilities afforded us, and we know of no reason 
 whatever why they should not continue to receive the general-order business ot tins 
 port as heretofore. 
 
 That petition, in addition to being signed as I have stated, by all these 
 leading merchants, bears the signature of Oapt. Silas Weeks and A. K. 
 Miller and Company. Here is also a supplemental petition : 
 
 We, the undersigned importers, respectfully request that merchandise consigned to 
 us by lines of steamships landing in the third diistrict be ordered to the United States 
 warehouse No. 6, class 3. 
 
 That is signed by a number also of the leading importers. I have 
 made this statement simply in justice to the deputy collector of the 
 port, who submitted his action to me, and I have communicated it to 
 the committee. He is here, himself, to answer any questions which may 
 be propounded. 
 
 Examination of P. T. HerWIG, special deputy collector of the port of 
 
 New Orleans. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. I would like to have you explain the reason which induced 
 you not to carry out the order of the Secretary of the Treasury, and 
 whether you have communicated your action in the matter to the Sec- 
 retary. 
 
 Answer. It was the custom some time ago that when steamers or ves- 
 sels would land here, the owners of the goods had the privilege of let- 
 ting their goods remain there forty-eight hours, in order to give them an 
 opportunity to make their entries. In making an entry, the importer is 
 allowed the privilege of designating any warehouse that he desires. In 
 fact, the collector cannot refuse that permission. I have here, a blank 
 regulation form of warehouse entry. The order is indorsed on the back 
 of it, " I request that the merchandise now entered by me to be ware- 
 housed as described in the within entry, by such a steamer or vessel, 
 
 from such a place, may be deposited in the store No. , street, 
 
 and I do here constitute and appoint — ■ > — , as agent." It was 
 
 deemed a hardship to keep the goods on the wharf, because it delayed 
 the merchant ; that is, it delayed the steamships from receiving their 
 cargo, because the wharf would be loaded. It was also a great risk to have 
 a large amount of goods on the wharves, because they were sometimes in 
 a bad condition. Ithasbeen known where an entire wharfhas sunk right 
 into the river, and it would be too great a risk for the Government to 
 leave a large amount of goods where the duty had not been collected. 
 Parties desiring to ship goods have the privilege of making what they 
 call an impost-entry, or they have the privilege of transporting under 
 transportation-bonds. The inspectors are always requested, and even 
 ordered, to let these goods remain as long as possible, in order to avoid 
 ■any unnecessary expense. Sometimes steamboats go there and they 
 take the goods right from the wharf. 
 
 Now, in relation to the affair of Captain Weeks : He made an appli- 
 cation for a bonded warehouse. The letter was written by the corre- 
 sponding clerk, under my directions, and I told him to make a favorable 
 report, which was done. The original application of Captain Weeks 
 went on with my favorable endorsement, as I say. Here is the answer. 
 
 Treasury Department, Nwemler IS, 1373. 
 ■Str : I have received yorir letter of the 18th ihBtant, inclosing the application of Silas 
 Weeks, and the requisite certificates, for permission to bond the premises known as the 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 931 
 
 " Mississippi and Dominion Warehouse," Nos. 748 to 754 Tchoupitonlas street, in the city 
 of New Orleans, La., the same being a brick building, 84 by 88 feet, as a warehouse, 
 class 3, for the storage of dutiable merchandise in bond. 
 
 In reply theretoj you are respectfully informed that the application is approved. You 
 are hereby authorized to take proper bond in duplicate in such sum as will secure the 
 revenue, and transmit-the same for the consideration of the Department. The requisite 
 blanks are herewith inclosed. 
 I am, very respectfully, 
 
 WM. A. RICHARDSON, 
 
 Secretary. 
 Jambs P. Casey, Esq., 
 
 Collector of Customs, New Orleans, La. 
 
 Treasury Department, November 24, 1873. 
 Sir : I have received the bond of Silas Weeks, in duplicate, transmitted with your 
 letter of the 18th instant, for constituting the premises known as " the Mississippi and 
 Dominion Warehouse," Nos. 748 to 754 Tchoupitonlas street, New Orleans, accepted by 
 Department letter of the 13th instant as a warehouse, class 3, for the storage of duti- 
 able merchandise in bond, and hereby approve the same. 
 One copy of the bond is herewith returned, to be placed on the files of your office. 
 I am, very respectfully, 
 
 WM. A. RICHARDSON, 
 
 Secretary. 
 James P. Casey, Esq., 
 
 Collector ef Customs, New Orleans, La. 
 
 After the letter came back approving the bonded warehouse, Captain 
 Weeks was notified of the fact, and he, of course, furnished his bond in 
 accordance with the regulations, and the bond was immediately for- 
 warded. 
 
 [The reply has heretofore been read in the course of to-day's proceed- 
 ings before this committee.] 
 
 It will be observed that this was not general orders or unclaimed. 
 Under this letter I had no power of granting him the privilege of the 
 general orders coming by his vessel. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Ton regard the last letter as authority to establish a general 
 warehouse, but not a warehouse for uncalled or unclaimed goods 1 
 
 Answer. That is it, sir. It is very positive m the letter, as it reads 
 for the storage of goods dutiable. ._ ,. 
 
 Question. Have these regulations, read by General West, been com- 
 municated to you from the Treasury Department for your regulation t 
 
 Answer. Those are sent to us by the Treasury Department as our 
 
 ffU Question Was that book which was read from the book sent to yon? 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; we have one for each office. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 Question I read from both the books ; are they both sent to you by 
 
 *a2SS?S SrSfSS'-a— M, one; «Le ™*»» 
 
 superintendent has one. 
 
 Bv Mr. Sherman : 
 ' nation Do you know the reasons that influenced the Department 
 in decUmng ^privilege of warehousing unclaimed goods to shipping 
 
 companies? 
 Answer. I think I do. 
 
 ^feTltTo^^^Ae wisest provisions of that law, 
 for £ reasonT that because having an interest in a steamship, or being 
 
932 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 the agent of a steamship, they oftentimes have goods consigned to them 
 or to their company for transportation, and it is somewhat mcorupatiDie 
 to receive goods by the steamship of which he may be an owner, agent, 
 or be interested in, to store it in his own warehouse which is nearly 
 under his control. There is simply a government officer there— one 
 store-keeper. It was in order to prevent any fraud or collusion. 
 But I desire to state to the Senators that of course I feel perfectly satis- 
 fied. If it was a matter in which I had any control I would be willing 
 to trust Captain Weeks to all the merchandise in this port, so-far as I 
 am concerned. But I have no control over the matter. It is a matter 
 that the Government pins us closely to. I told the captain that I would 
 take pleasure in making any recommendation consistent, and would 
 help him, and told him to make an application for his store-keeper, and 
 then any one who made an entry for goods in Ms warehouse we would 
 extend them all the facilities imaginable. 
 
 Question. If any importer desired to place goods of this character in 
 his warehouse he has a right to do it 1 
 
 Answer. He has, or in any warehouse. We have a great many ware- 
 houses here. I have here a list of all the warehouses and a list of the 
 store-keepers in charge of the different bonded warehouses, December, 
 1873, giving the names of the store-keepers, the warehouse, the number, 
 class, location of store, and remarks. There are three warehouses of 
 class three in this city, and all the others are private warehouses. For 
 instance, the warehouse No. 1 is what is called the United States ware- 
 house, where all goods that are to be appraised must go, and all goods 
 that are ordered of a very valuable nature, for instance, jewelry, be- 
 cause we have regular vaults down there for their safe keeping, and it 
 is the intention, as soon as the roof of a custom-house is fixed to pre- 
 vent the rain from going in there, that all general orders shall go in 
 there, because it is the proper place. There is a warehouse belonging 
 to Mr. Oouturie, being a private warehouse of class No. 2, for the stor- 
 age of goods coming to his house. He stores no other goods. There is 
 another belonging to P. E. Binlatour ; he stores none but his own pri- 
 vate goods. It is the same with Maignan & Laborde, Mrs. John 
 Gauche ; the same with B. O. L. Eayne. These are warehouses that 
 have been in existence for years. The three warehouses that receive 
 ^ther goods except their own are the importers' bonded warehouses. 
 It is a corporation consisting of the principal importers here. Nearly 
 all the wine and liquor is stored there. In fact, any goods coming to 
 importers who are stockholders in that. There is also the Montgomery 
 warehouse, which is No. 6, class 3, Joseph Michel ; No. 11, class 3, E. 
 T. Ohambury. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. Does Mr. Ohambury have general order facilities ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; sometimes there is a certain class of goods that 
 come here, for instance, goods that go to Mexico. Warehouse No. 6, 
 class 3, is centrally located, because it is directly opposite the railroad. 
 Those merchants prefer their goods going there, because it is close to 
 the railroad, and they can be shipped at short notice and at less ex- 
 pense. 
 
 Question. Is there any drayage charge of general-order goods to 
 warehouse No. 6 ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir j the understanding that they have is that goods 
 going to general order go there, but they do not charge the drayage 
 until they have time to make the entry, which can be made in three 
 days. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 933 
 
 Question. Then after they have been entered they remain in that 
 warehouse, without anj additional charge for drayage do they ? 
 
 Answer. There is no charge, except they make special contracts. 
 Any warehouse can make special contracts for drayage or for storage. 
 The rate of storage in New Orleans is less than the rate of storage in 
 New York, but the warehouses sometimes charge even less than that, 
 in order to induce business. Every warehouse has that right. 
 
 Question. If a merchant's goods are taken to a generakorder ware- 
 house, No. 6, and subsequent to their being entered he changes them to 
 another warehouse, is the drayage charged from the steamship to No. 6 
 warehouse ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; that is, within the prescribed time. I believe three 
 days is the time. In relation to goods, all warehouses give the same 
 class of receipt. Goods may be damaged on the vessel or they may be 
 damaged on the route. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. Will you explain the difference between unclaimed goods 
 and bonded goods 1 
 
 Answer. Unclaimed goods are goods where no entry is made. 
 
 Question. What do you mean by no entry? 
 
 Answer. For instance the consignee may not be here or he may not 
 be in a position to pay immediately the duty. The goods then are in the 
 custody of the United States. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman: 
 Question. Goods when they arrive here must either be claimed and 
 the duties paid, or they must be entered formally for the storage. 
 
 By Mr. Davts: 
 
 Question. Within what time must a warehouse entry be made ? 
 
 Answer. Within twelve months. If it is not made within twelve 
 months it is sold under general order. 
 
 Question. I mean within what time must the formal entry be made. 
 He must pay the duty within twenty-four or forty-eight hours, or else 
 the goods go into store ? 
 
 Answer. The moment you make a warehouse entry you then take 
 possession of your goods ; that is, you have the privilege of designating 
 the warehouse, but you need not pay the duties for a year. 
 
 Question. If a vessel arrives here with goods and they are unloaded on 
 the wharf, what is the general movement of those goods; how do you 
 
 treat them ? , , , , ,„ 
 
 Answer If the owner of the goods makes a warehouse-entry, he des- 
 ignates the warehouse where the goods go. If he makes an impost- 
 entrv he pays the duty immediately and takes possession of his goods. 
 If he does not make an entry, of course, then it is a general order, or 
 thev are unclaimed goods. . 
 
 Question. What proportion of goods that arrive go to No. 6 ware- 
 
 h °Answer. That I cannot weU state. I will examine the books, how- 
 ever, if you desire. 
 
 Question. Approximate to it as near as you can. 
 
 Answer. It would be a very difficult matter. 
 
 Onpstion Well, as difficult as it is, try to get at it. 
 
 Answer I could very easily tell you in a short time if I had permis- 
 
 ^Qu^sti^A^eTounoTon the wharf and in the warehouse every day? 
 
934 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; my duties are supervisory ; I am at the custom- 
 house from nine until three. 
 
 Question. You say your duties are supervisory % 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Then you supervise where the goods go 1 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. Who does f 
 
 Answer. The merchant who makes the entry of the- goods. 
 
 Question. The merchant cannot be on the wharf and receive each 
 piece of goods ? 
 
 Answer. The inspectors are supervising. 
 
 Question. You direct the inspectors? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. Who does ? 
 
 Answer. The surveyor. 
 
 Question. Can you not tell whether one-half, or one-quarter, or one- 
 tenth of the goods go to No. 6 warehouse ? 
 
 Answer. I cannot well tell. 
 
 Question. Who controls No. 6 warehouse ? 
 
 Answer. Joseph Michel is the proprietor. 
 
 Question. Who is he 1 
 
 Answer. He is a resident here. 
 
 Question. A private citizen ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Is he any connection of yours 1 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. Who owns the drays t 
 
 Answer. Any one has the privilege of having a bonded dray. 
 
 Question. Who does own the drays which haul the goods to No. 6 
 warehouse as a rule ? 
 
 Answer. Mr. Gubernator has six of the drays, 1 think. 
 
 Question. Is he connected with the warehouse ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; in no way. 
 
 Question. Does the same gentleman who owns or controls the ware- 
 house own any drays ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; not one. That I can very easily tell, because every 
 drayman gives a bond of $5,000 that the goods that are loaded on his 
 dray will be delivered to the warehouse, or to the custom-house or to 
 any steamboat. 
 
 Question. How do these drays make their living ? I understand you 
 to say they do not charge anything for taking goods to the general-order 
 warehouse. How are they paid ? 
 
 Answer. The warehouse has to pay them. That is a risk they run. 
 If the goods remain in there, of course they have the benefit of the 
 storage. If the goods are hauled out, that is their misfortune. 
 
 Question. Do any other drays haul them away from there except the 
 drays which haul them up ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; any other dray can haul. 
 
 Question. The merchant can send any dray that he thinks proper ? 
 
 Answer. A merchant can bond his own dray. Every merchant has 
 that privilege. 
 
 Question. Is it done ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Did you inform Captain Weeks when he called on you 
 three or. four- times, whatever number of times it was, that there was 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 935 
 
 he would Z? n * t Ms F? P f S ^Washington, or did you tell him that 
 ne would have to wait until the collector returned ? 
 
 ^vnJ^\.^ m A de f* application, and when the application was 
 
 S»T w • f l° 0n - l have beei1 ex P ec ting him nearly every 
 day, but owing to the illness of his wife he has been unable to 
 
 COIDC* 
 
 Question. You did not inform the captain that there was anything 
 wrong with his application or with the communication from the Treasurv 
 Department, or did you do so? ' "* 
 
 Answer. That there was anything wrong? No, there is nothing 
 wrong about the application. 
 
 Question. I thought you said that you could not allow him to store 
 the goods in there, owing to the order from Washington ? 
 
 Answer. If you examine the warehouse regulation you will find that 
 there are three classes of warehouses, and the one that he made appli- 
 cation for was of class 3. 
 
 Question. I understand that, sir. What was the reason you could 
 not let Mr. Weeks unload his own ships in his warehouse ? 
 
 Answer. He could not do that, because, in the first place, he did not 
 have a store-keeper. 
 
 Question. Did you inform him that that was the reason? 
 
 Answer. Ho ; I told him that he had better make application for a 
 store-keeper. A great many merchants may make entries to have their 
 goods sent to his warehouse. We have no disposition in the world to 
 obstruct the captain. 
 
 Question. Then I cannot understand why it is, if he has bought a 
 warehouse for the purpose of facilitating his trade, that you have not 
 either informed him that there is something wrong or allow him to have 
 the goods. 
 
 Answer. I told him to make the application for the store-keeper. 
 
 Question. Make the application to whom f 
 
 Answer. To the collector. 
 
 Question. Could you not have appointed a store-keeper ? 
 
 Answer. I would have had to submit his name to Washington for ap- 
 proval. All nominations are confirmed by the Department. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. What proportion of goods arriving from foreign ports are 
 dutiable goods, are general-order goods ? 
 
 Answer. That is a very difficult question to reply to, for this reason : 
 Persons may make entries; sometimes the invoices may come and they 
 cannot make entries. 
 
 Question. Is it 10 per cent., do you think, that go to general order? 
 
 Answer. I do not think it is. I desire to say to the committee that 
 we are willing to facilitate commerce all we can, and that I am always 
 at my house; the captain can get a permit at 12 or 1 o'clock at night 
 for his vessel, if he desires it. 
 
 ■ By Mr. DAVIS : 
 Question. The only thing I desire is to get the facts of why it is, if 
 Captain Weeks has provided a warehouse, and it comes under the regu- 
 lations he has not been permitted to use it. [To Captain Weeks.] 
 Will you state the facts regarding your application, and whether you 
 were refused or not ? 
 
936 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; my application was not refused, and the reason of 
 my not calling on Mr. Herwig for a store-keeper was because he would 
 not grant me what my application called for and what it was accepted 
 for. My application went in as a general-order warehouse, and was ac- 
 cepted as such. That was not granted me, and that was the reason 1 
 did not call for the store-keeper, and I told Mr. Herwig the same— that 
 until I could get what mv application called for I should not use it at 
 all. 
 
 By Mr. CONOVER : 
 
 Question. That application went in to make your warehouse a general- 
 order warehouse ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. That was not granted by the Treasury Department ? 
 
 Answer. It was granted. 
 
 By Judge Kennard : 
 Question. (To Mr. Herwig.) I understand you to say that Mr. Cham- 
 bury had a general-order bonded warehouse f 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. When did he get that permit 1 
 
 Answer. O, he has no general-order warehouse; his is simply a 
 class 3 warehouse. There were three bonded warehouses that could 
 be used as general order. 
 
 Question. I want to know how many general-order bonded ware- 
 houses are in actual use to-day in New Orleans 1 
 Answer. There are only three that can be used. There are only two. 
 Question. There are only two actually used ? 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. To whom do they belong? 
 Answer. One to Michel and the other to Mr. Ohambury. 
 Question. When did Mr. Chambury get his permit ; when was his 
 warehouse made a general-order warehouse ? 
 
 Answer. His warehouse never was made a general-order warehouse, 
 but the collector has at times designated goods to his warehouse. 
 
 Question. Then his warehouse does not stand on the same footing as 
 the other. I understood you to say that there were two general-order 
 bonded warehouses? 
 
 Answer. There are two that are in the habit of getting general orders. 
 There are three warehouses that can. 
 
 Question. I do not care about can ; I want to know those which are 
 actually licensed and are doing a general-order business to-day. Do I 
 understand you that Mr. Chambury is one of those t 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. When did he get his permit 1 
 
 Answer. It was before our administration ; that is, as to bonded ware- 
 houses of class three. 
 Question. Is that a general-order bonded warehouse ? 
 Apswer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. When did he get his permit as a general-order bonded 
 warehouse ? 
 
 Answer. There is no such thing as a general order; that is, the col- 
 lector can designate any one warehouse to Receive the unclaimed goods. 
 Question. Which one has he designated*! 
 Answer. No. 6 has been designated. as*one. 
 Question. What other besides No.- 6 ¥ 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 937 
 
 'Answer. Mr. Chambury's. 
 
 Question. That stands on precisely the same footing, then, as No. 6 ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. When was it placed on that footing ? 
 
 Answer. It has been placed on that footing for some time. 
 
 Question. How long ? 
 
 Answer. I do not remember. 
 
 Question. Can you approximate it ? 
 
 Answer. I cannot well understand your question. 
 
 Question. I do not know whether the committee understands my ques- 
 tion or not, or what I am aiming at. I have witnesses to prove that Mr. 
 Chambury has very lately come into the possession of this privilege. 
 I will, however, go from that. I have here the reply from the Treasury 
 Department to the application made by Mr. Weeks. • I understand that, 
 in the bond which was forwarded from the custom-house, in obedience 
 to those instructions, there were some restrictions with reference to the 
 character of the warehouse which prevented you from making his a gen- 
 eral-order warehouse. That is what you have testified to ? 
 
 Answer. That there were restrictions ? 
 
 Question. There was something in that bond that restricted this gen- 
 eral privilege. According to this document he has an undoubted right 
 to a general-order bonded warehouse. 
 
 Answer. To a bonded warehouse, Ho. 3. 
 
 Question. It says general-order bonded warehouse. What I want to 
 get at is this 
 
 Answer. (Interrupting.) I beg your pardon, " accepted by Department 
 letter of the 13th instant, as a warehouse, class 3, for the storage of duti- 
 able merchandise in bond." 
 
 Question. That is not this document. That is exactly what I am com- 
 ing at. Here is the right that was granted Mr. Weeks from the Treasury 
 Department direct. Now you undertake to modify that right by a doc- 
 ument that you read there, that you say has been forwarded. I wish to 
 know what sort of a bond was forwarded to the Department by Mr. 
 Chambury before the permit was granted to him. 
 
 Answer. All bonds are the same. . , , , „ 
 
 Question. Then there was no defect in the bond furnished by Mr. 
 
 Weeks? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. , . , ,, . , , , , , 
 
 Question. Then you did not propose to abridge the rights granted t» 
 him in this'permit by the Secretary? 
 
 Answer. No, sir : I' do not propose to abridge it. 
 
 Questions. But you have refused to license him as such. 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. You have not? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 tu™«,i,n,i«A to-dav. or anv time tuat ne ciesires, oul j. uauuut seuu 
 tne genet? order ^or unclaimed goods there, except the Secretary of tfre 
 
 anSt comes ffomTheTustom-house of New York. Is that the law which 
 
 y Answe^ Ye^fjou will find that it is attested by the Secretary^ 
 th&Treasury. 
 
938 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. Is Mr. Chambury an agent of a steamship ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. Does any steamship-line come consigned to him? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. Then, the distinction that you make between Mr. Chambury, 
 in giving him the privilege of general-order goods, and Captain Weeks 
 in not giving it to him is under this provision, that no such warehouse 
 will be approved in the control or management of which any steamship 
 company or agent has any interest ? 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir. 
 
 Question. He having an interest of that kind, you declined to give 
 him that privilege under your regulations I 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir ; unless they make a warehouse-entry for his ware- 
 house, which I should give with a great deal of pleasure. 
 
 Question. And Mr. Chambury not being an agent of the steamship, 
 you are not restricted by this regulation ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. Did you inform Mr. Weeks that your regulations would not 
 allow you to carry out the order of the Secretary of the Treasury? 
 
 Answer. I do not remember whether I did or not. His application 
 was made and handed to one of the deputies, I believe. I told the dep- 
 uty to make a favorable recommendation, and the letters were brought 
 to me, and I signed them. 
 
 Question. You gave Mr. Weeks such information as would let him 
 cure the fault, if there was one f 
 
 Answer. I do not remember of any conversation taking place be- 
 tween us. 
 
 Question. When did Mr. Chambury get his permit ; was it a year 
 ago, or was it yesterday ? 
 
 Answer. Why, he has been receiving for I do not know how long. One 
 of the oldest deputy collectors is present he was there before I was, 
 and can perhaps tell you. 
 
 Mr. C. B. Ingalls. Perhaps I can explain about this. Every vessel 
 which enters the port has to have a general-order permit. It is not that 
 any one warehouse has the general orders, but it is after the vessel gets 
 through discharging her cargo. The agent of the vessel makes an ap- 
 plication to the collector for a permit to send the balance of goods that 
 he has received no permit for to some warehouse, and each vessel, as it 
 comes in, gets a general order for these goods, and the inspector sends 
 those goods. As I say, it is not that any one warehouse has a general 
 permit to receive general-order goods, but every vessel that comes in 
 has to get what is called a general-order permit to send what the in- 
 spector has no permit for at the time she has discharged, and that per- 
 mit designates to what warehouse these goods shall be sent. 
 
 Judge Kennard. I would like to' call the attention of the committee 
 to this fact. Here is an application made to the Treasury Department 
 for a general-order bonded warehouse, which has been accepted and ap- 
 proved. Now, the facts appear to be, no matter from what cause, that 
 the rights granted by the Secretary of the Treasury have been abridged 
 by some regulation in the custom-house here. I merely call the atten- 
 tion of the committee to that, and I think if such impediments 'exist 
 they involve the disregard of the orders of the Secretary of the Treas- 
 ury. He has given, undoubtedly, an unconditional order in this man's 
 favor for a general-order bonded warehouse, and some regulation inter- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOAED. 939 
 
 venes to prevent him from reaping the fruits of that grant. What that 
 regulation is I do not know. 
 
 Question. (To Mr. Herwig.) Did Mr. Chambury have this permit 
 three days ago, which he now holds ? 
 
 Answer. There is no such thing as permit. 
 
 Question. Just answer that question categorically, and then you can 
 make any number of explanations you please. 
 
 Answer. He has often received general orders 
 
 Question. I ask the specific question, whether he had the permit he is 
 now in possession of from the custom-house three days ago ? 
 
 Answer. No bonded warehouse ever had a permit. 
 
 Question. That is not an answer to my question. 
 
 Answer. Do you mean whether he had the order from the Treasury 
 Department designating his warehouse as a bonded warehouse? 
 
 Question. I mean, has he received a permit from the custom-house 
 in the last three days. Has he received any document of any sort, 
 shape, or kind ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; no document, to my knowledge, nor has any other 
 warehouse. 
 
 Question. Did he not once have this general order, and then have it 
 taken away from him f 
 
 Answer. He had a part of it. Often a merchant would come up and 
 ask that his goods might be sent to Mr. Chambury, or to No. 6, or to No. 
 4, or to different warehouses. 
 
 Examination of E. D. Frost, general manager Great Jackson route : 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. What roads are you manager of, and what are their termini ? 
 
 Answer. I am the manager of the New Orleans, Jackson & Great 
 Northern Eailroad, which terminates at Canton, Miss., and is two hun- 
 dred and six miles long; also of the Mississippi Central Railroad, run- 
 ning from Canton and terminating at Cairo, 111., which is three hundred 
 and forty-two miles long; also of the Mississippi & Tennessee Eoad, 
 from Grenada, Miss., to Memphis, Tenn., one hundred miles long. 
 
 Question. What is the distance from here to Cairo, by your own 
 route ? 
 
 Answer. Five hundred and forty-nine miles. 
 
 Question. With what other means of transportation between Cairo 
 and here are you brought into competition ? 
 
 Answer. With the river, and with the line of railroad from Columbus, 
 Ky., to Mobile, and to this point. 
 
 Question. There are three competing lines, yours being the central 
 
 one? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Which do you find to be your most serious competitor I 
 
 Answer. The river. , 
 
 Question. Please state your charges from Cairo here by rail on fourth- 
 class freight, on grain, corn, and wheat. 
 
 Answer. Grain is about seventy-five cents a hundred from Chicago 
 
 Question. And Chicago is how far beyond Cairo? 
 
 Answer It is three hundred and sixty miles north of Cairo ? 
 
 Question. What is it from Cairo here? 
 
 Answer. It is about 40 cents. . . 
 
 Question. Do you run in connection with the Illinois Central 1 
 
940 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. You form now a through line from Chicago here? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; both to Saint Louis and Chicago. 
 
 Question. What is the difference between your rates on the same 
 class of freight that we have spoken of and the river rates from Cairo 
 here ? , 
 
 Answer. It is usually in the proportion of sixty-six and two-thirds to 
 the hundred. We charge, say a dollar, where the boats charge 66§ 
 cents. It is about in that proportion. The rates are very fluctuating, 
 according to competition. There is also a very strong competition on 
 the river between the boats themselves. 
 
 Question. They charge about 66 per cent, of your charge on the same 
 product ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Do you prorate with any river line 1 ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. I mean any part of the Ohio. 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. Nor with the Upper Mississippi ? 
 
 Answer. We prorate with boats on the Upper Mississippi. 
 
 Question. From what point ? 
 
 Answer. From Saint Louis and any point on the line. 
 
 Question. Do you remember the terms of the prorating? 
 
 Answer. I do not know. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. What proportion of the year is navigation on the river 
 impeded, either by low water or by ice ? Is it ever impeded by ice from 
 Cairo down ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; there have been for two successive years heavy 
 gorges south of Cairo, and it is usually impeded a great deal by low 
 water. I think it would average about three months in the year. 
 
 Question. Do you change your rates when these impediments occur? 
 
 Answer. They go up and down. 
 
 Question. They advance the rates according to competition ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; it fluctuates like all other things. 
 
 Question. Do you form connection by through line to Chicago and 
 New York? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Do you prorate per mile? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; on freights. 
 
 Question. What is the through freight from here to New York by 
 way of your line ? 
 
 Answer. That fluctuates. I can give you the rate from Cincinnati or 
 from Louisville. 
 
 Question. Give it, if you please, on fourth-class goods. . 
 
 Answer. From Louisville is 40 cents on fourth-class goods. 
 
 Question. From here to Louisville 40 cents ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. How much to Cincinnati ? 
 
 Answer. Fifty. 
 
 Question. Is not that lower than the same distance on routes where 
 there is no river competition to compete with ? 
 
 Answer. I think not. 
 
 Question. Are those rates not lower per ton per mile than the rates 
 from Chicago to New York? 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 941 
 
 +w nSW ™f ; T^ S ' sir > a * times - Sometimes Chicago rates are lower than 
 tnat. This Cincinnati rate rises and falls according to the condition of 
 the river. 
 
 Question. And for that traffic you have competition with the Mobile 
 and Ohio Boad? 
 
 Answer. For the Louisville and Cincinnati trade we have competition 
 with the river* and with the Mobile and Ohio Eoad, and then with the 
 line of road through Montgomery and Decatur, Alabama. We have 
 three competitors by that route. 
 
 Question. Can you give the yearly tonuage of your road? 
 
 Answer. The northern hundred miles of our road was opened only a 
 week ago, but the tonnage of this Jackson road I can give vou for 
 two years. In 1871 and 1872 the total tonnage at this station was 
 187,941 tons; for 1873 it was 210,595. 
 
 Question. Can you give us the whole tonnage moved ? 
 
 Answer. That is the whole tonnage moved. 
 
 Question. Is the tonnage greater going northward or coming south- 
 ward? 
 
 Answer. Coming southward. The cotton makes it heavier. 
 
 Question. Is the cotton the chief product moved ? 
 
 Answer. The chief product moved south. The tonnage of cotton is 
 larger. 
 
 Question. Have you any tonnage of grain, corn, cereals ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; we haul very little corn or grain. That comes by 
 the river, from the fact that we have never had any convenience here 
 for handling it. 
 
 Question. Have you any warehouse or elevator facilities on your 
 road ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; we have none yet. We are just making provisions 
 for them at the river. 
 
 Question. Have you ever competed in the hauling of coal or iron- 
 ore? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; coal is all brought here in barges or coal-boats. 
 
 Question. Tou have not reached the coal-mines of Alabama in your 
 line? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; we have just reached the coal-mines of Illinois 
 and those of Kentucky. We reached the coal-mines of Kentucky by 
 the Elizabethtown and Paducah road. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Do you bring any coal from there here? 
 
 Answer. The first shipment is now on its way. 
 
 Question You have no doubt studied this question of transportation. 
 What is your explanation of the fact that so small an amount of north- 
 western cereals find their way to this point ? 
 
 Answer I think it owing to the obstruction and the difficulty of get- 
 ting them'away from here, the facilities being so poor. 
 
 Question. On account of the want of tonnage » 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question Give us a little more fully your reason for the causes. 
 What other causes operate to prevent wheat or corn from being trans- 
 
 P °Answer The obstructions at the mouth of the river are of such a na- 
 ture that the tonnage of vessels which come in here is limited; the ex- 
 
942 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 pense of getting in is great ; the danger is great. That makes the ratek 
 of freights higher here, and we cannot for those reasons compete witn 
 other points. 
 
 Question. That is from New Orleans outward 1 ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. The obstruction is here at this place and below t 
 
 Answer. The obstruction is below us. « 
 
 Question. Is there any complaint made, in transporting by rail, about 
 local charges in New Orleans t 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; there is considerable complaint among people about 
 the charges in New Orleans. 
 
 Question. Does your railroad come along the docks, so that you can 
 load directly from your cars on to the river ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; we have a track of "that kind. 
 
 Question. Do you pay any wharfage charges for loading and un- 
 loading ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. Your track is right on the wharf? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Are all the railroads that enter New Orleans provided with 
 the same facilities for shipment on the wharves ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. A vessel receiving your produce would pay the same wharf- 
 age as any other vessel ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Is there any proposed extension of the system of railroads 
 that concentrate here farther south to the proposed canal? 
 
 Answer. I have heard of none. 
 
 Question. Do you know whether or not it is possible to build a rail- 
 road down there ? 
 
 Answer. O, yes, it is possible to build a railroad and maintain it 
 there. 
 
 Question. Is there any difficulty whatever in the way of building a 
 railroad from here to the proposed canal, so as to make your great depot 
 there? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; none in the world. The difficulties of building a rail- 
 road from here to the canal are very small, compared with building our 
 road out here forty miles. We encountered greater obstacles than will 
 be encountered down there. 
 
 Question. Do you know the length of the line of railroad from New 
 Orleans to the proposed canal, cutting off all bends so far as practicable ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; I do not. 
 
 Question. Has it ever been surveyed ? 
 
 Answer. I think not. I do not think any line has been surveyed ; if 
 it has, I have no knowledge of it. 
 
 Question. How does the expense of building a railroad on this low, 
 flat, marshy ground compare with the expense of building a railroad on 
 an ordinary line, say through the Upper Mississippi and Tennessee 
 country ? 
 
 Answer. It is much less. 
 
 Question. The expense of piling is much less than the expense of 
 bridging, &c, is it? 
 
 Answer. In running a line down this river to the point of the proposed 
 canal, I should run it on the high land. 
 
 Question. Near the river ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; I should run it near the river. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 943 
 
 Question. Following the river ? 
 Answer. Yes, sir; except in very sharp bends. 
 Question. For what reason? 
 places^ 1 ' The difficalt y of maintaining the road on timber in such 
 
 Question. What are the difficulties : worms ? 
 Answer. No, sir; decay. 
 Question. The timbers rot ? 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Have you ever made an estimate of the actual cost per ton 
 per mile of transporting in this country, exclusive of any dividends ? 
 
 Answer Yes, sir; I have made calculations. It varies a good deal ; 
 on through freight it is about a cent a ton per mile. 
 
 Question. You think that is about as low as the cost can be reduced? 
 
 Answer. That is as low as it can be reduced. 
 
 Question. Starting at Cairo, can you compete with the river from 
 that point here, in point of charges ? 
 
 Answer. We can, if they will ask paying rates. If they will charge 
 living rates we can live. 
 
 Question. You mean to say you can carry as cheap from Cairo here 
 as they can ? 
 
 Answer. Kb, sir ; but we save the insurance. We get that advan- 
 tage. 
 
 Question. I believe that insurance is quite high on the river ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. Do you remember what it is from Cairo here ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; I do not. 
 
 Mr. Tucker. It is three-quarters per cent, on fourth-class goods. 
 
 Mr. Frost. We are sometimes enabled to carry through freights 
 bound north very low, from the fact that our cars can load with the 
 cotton coming south. For five or six months in the year we have the 
 empty cars going back after more cotton. 
 
 Question. About what proportion of your tonnage is north-bound 
 and what proportion south-bound ? 
 
 Answer. Our south-bound freight is about 65 per cent. 
 
 Question. Of the whole? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Tucker. Mr. Chairman, that insurance is 7£ cents per hundred ; 
 for instance, 35 cents to 42J cents, as compared by rail and river. Seven 
 and a half cents a hundred pounds is the difference between rail and 
 river. 
 
 Mr. Frost. I would say here that the time frequently gives us an 
 
 advantage. 
 
 By the Chairman; 
 
 Question. And the distance by river, owing to bends, is nearly double 
 the distance of your road ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. I am by profession a civil engineer, and I have 
 found from experience in surveying that most all these southern rivers 
 are twice as long as the air-line. 
 By Mr. SHERMAN : 
 
 Question. What is the time between Cairo and New Orleans for or- 
 dinary freight-trains ? 
 
 Answer. About two and a half days. 
 
944 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Question. What is the time from Cairo to New Orleans by an ordi^ 
 nary steamboat? 
 Answer. I think it is about five days or six days. 
 
 Examination of General G. T. Beauregard. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. "We have called you for the purpose of asking your opin- 
 ion as to the effect of the proposed Saint Philip Canal as a means of 
 military defense. As you have doubtless studied this section of the 
 country considerably, will you be good enough to give us your opinions 
 upon that subject, as compared with the present condition of the month 
 of that river ? 
 
 Answer. I will state for the information of the committee that it 
 would be of much greater advantage in that respect than iu the pres- 
 ent condition. Tou are aware, I suppose, that our forts areaboutthirty 
 miles from the mouth of the river, and that an enemy landing could, 
 come up to the very forts without any hinderance, and would cut off any 
 communication from the exterior at the very time that we would have 
 most need of the river as a refuge ; whereas by the construction of that 
 canal it could be defended by a fort at Isle au Breton, which offers a very 
 good condition for. the construction of a fort, and by bringing the en- 
 trance of the canal into the river within reach of the guns of Fort Saint 
 Philip and Port Jacksou, both extremities of the canal would be pro- 
 tected. In the event of a war, an enemy's fleet or other vessels draw- 
 ing more than 18 feet of water could not enter the r^ver at the mouth, 
 whereas our vessels, by going into the Breton Harbor, could have a safe 
 entrance into the canal and then into the river by means of the canal. 
 I think that the advantages are so apparent that really it requires no 
 discussion to show how important it would be for the construction of 
 the canal in a military point of view. 
 
 Then, again, at the mouth of the river, by constant operation we can 
 get about 20 feet ; but in case of a war, with the enemy's vessels lying 
 off near the bars, you could not expect those bars to be operated upon, 
 and the draught would again be reduced to about 17 feet ; whereas 
 by the construction of the canal you would have at least 25 feet, 
 I see no reason why we should not obtain a greater depth indeed 
 than 25 feet ; but we could have 25 feet certainly, and I believe our 
 largest vessels of war could then enter into the Mississippi River ; and 
 certainty there is no port in the world equal to the Mississippi River for 
 vessels of war, and even for a commercial fleet. There would then be 
 no necessity for having a harbor of refuge, or even a harbor for naval 
 construction at Pensacola. Whatever expenses might be made at Pen- 
 sacola could be very well diverted to the canal, and that much would be 
 saved to the Governmont. I think that for a country which occupies 
 so high a position as the United States, and which is bound to occupy 
 a still greater one in the course of human events, that that advantage 
 ought certainly not to be lost sight of; that is, to get an entrauce of at 
 least 25 feet into such a stream as the Mississippi River. 1 see no en- 
 gineering difficulties in the way that cannot be overcome. Of course 
 the work would have to be done with a great deal of care and after a 
 great deal of study ; but ;in my opinion, as an engineer, I think it prac- 
 ticable. 
 
 Question. What is your opinion as to its practicability as compared 
 with any of the other modes of keeping the mouth of the river open. 
 
 Ariswer. With the other modes you would have to expend annually 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD 945 
 
 mlkl y n la /l e S T' because of course any removal of the bar which you 
 wnLtnfk !? M been sbown ' is bouud t0 be carried on annually on 
 S oft e de P°, slts 'that take place, whereas by the construction of 
 if ,™ Ih tli y ° Q S ? a11 have expended about six or seven millions, then 
 
 l™nnll "'V httle indeed t0 kee P the CaDal iD re P air if the locks 
 
 fn?« « F y ^ e ' and by uot allowin g the river water to flow directly 
 into the canal there would be very little deposit in it, so that the annual 
 cost tor removing the deposits which might take place would be very 
 small in comparison with the bars of the river. 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. How would you overcome the difficulties of getting a good 
 toundation for the very heavy lock that would have to be made ? 
 
 Answer. That is an engineering difficulty that would be very easily 
 overcome. 
 
 Question. What methods were adapted in getting the foundation for 
 the custom-house in this city, for instance ? 
 
 Answer. They used heavy timbers lengthwise and crosswise, and 
 then concrete on top of that to bear a certain weight on the foundation. 
 We can easily calculate the compressibility of our soil. In fact, I made a 
 series of experiments at that time which determined the amount ex- 
 actly of compress of our soil for certain weights, and by that we can 
 guide ourselves perfectly as to the amount of settlement. All that you 
 have to do is to give sufficient base to your foundation. If 20 feet will 
 not do, you can give 25, 30, or 40 feet. That is a matter of calculation 
 which I think any engineer who understands his profession can over- 
 come. I see no real obstacle that cannot be overcome. It is work that 
 would have to be thoroughly studied and executed with great care, but 
 at the same time I am very certain that the corps of engineers would 
 execute it. 
 
 Question. How does the foundation there compare with the foundation 
 here, say, at the custom-house ? 
 
 Answer. Itis pretty nearly the same thing. We encounter pretty nearly 
 the same soil. Now and then we come across a layer of clay, and some- 
 times sand mixed with clay and sometimes a little quicksand. In that 
 respect you would have to sound to determine exactly the nature of the 
 soil, and according to that soil then you construct your foundations. 
 If a system of drainage will not answer entirely, you can use piles. If 
 you find a layer of clay for instance 40 or 50 feet deep, and do not wish 
 to go that low for your foundation, you drive the piles into the layer of 
 clay that will give you resistance enough, and we can tell exactly what 
 the piles ought to bear. You can tell exactly the degree of settlement 
 that you are to encounter. 
 
 Question. Do you know of any work in the world of a similar char- 
 acter where such great weight has 'been put on a foundation like that? 
 
 Answer. We can take as a criterion the canal across the Isthmus of 
 Suez. The ground there was more difficult. It was pure sand, which 
 is more difficult to construct in than in alluvial soil. 
 
 Question. Is that about the same character of work ? 
 
 Answer. In general features it is. 
 
 Question. There is a lock and break-water in that Suez Canal ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; I do not think that the difficulties cannot be sur- 
 mounted but, as I have said before, they will have to be considered and 
 studied with great care. 
 
 Question. Do you think there would be any difficulty from the water 
 passing into the locks f 
 60 TS 
 
946 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 . Answer. No, sir ; the difference of level between high and low water 
 is only 4 or 5 feet. 
 
 Question. Could the water that goes into the lock be carried in some 
 lateral way ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; by having lateral basins you can allow the water 
 to settle there, and draw it into the canal when perfectly settled, so 
 that your deposits would be only in your lateral basins, and those can 
 be easily moved by machinery— by the present . system. The canal 
 would have to be dug of course in water, because if you were to draw the 
 water out the probabilities are that the banks would cave in ; but you 
 have to construct the bank with a natural slope of one upon one, and 
 the deposits, if put on the sides of the banks of the canal, should be 
 extended not to offer too much pressure on the sides. 
 
 Question. Do you think a slope of one to one would be sufficient on 
 that kind of soil 1 
 
 Answer. I think so. Ton might give it a little more for greater se- 
 curity, but one upon one I am pretty certain would answer the purpose, 
 if the canal is made wide enough so that the slope shall not be injured 
 by the motion of the water created by the propellers of the boats. I 
 think that it is an enterprise of such magnitude that it ought not to be 
 made on the minimum scale. The importance' of having navigation of 
 the Mississippi River proper at all times, in peace and war, is so very 
 important that a few million dollars should not be an obstacle in the 
 way. 
 
 Question. Did you make that estimate of $6,000,000 originally 1 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; I had nothing to do with that. That was done by 
 Major Howell, of the engineers. He was the local engineer. 
 
 Question. There was an estimate made many years ago and I thought 
 he only confirmed the previous estimate. 
 
 Answer. The previous estimate was made by a gentleman who was 
 not a professional engineer, and if my recollection serves me right he 
 made it at $2,000,000. As I say, he was not a professional engineer. 
 His name was Montague. 
 By Mr. West. 
 
 Question. Have you any recollection of the estimate of Major Chase ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir; that was before my day. I do not know that he 
 made an estimate because he had not the surveys, aud no estimate can 
 be made without the surveys. But this estimate of Major Howell is, I 
 take it, more nearly correct than any other I know of. 
 
 Question. How would the weight of the proposed lock, as far as you 
 are conversant with these plans, compare with the weight ofrthe walls of 
 the custom-house, either per square foot, or in gross mass ? 
 
 Answer. I have not gone into the calculation, so that I cannot give 
 you a definite answer. 
 
 Question. Which do you think would be the greater? 
 
 Answer. I think that the weight of the walls of the custom-house 
 would be the greater. The weight of the custom-house is greater in 
 proportion. 
 
 Question. Do you think that proportion would be material 1 
 
 Answer. I do not recollect what my calculations were with regard to 
 the etistom-house. The building there you are aware has settled about 
 22-inches. 
 
 Question. But, as I understand you, the pressure would be as against 
 the custom-house and in favor of the canal ? 
 
 Answer. Without going into a calculation, I should say it would. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 947 
 
 Question. You are familiar with the construction of the forts and the 
 character of the soil immediately adjacent? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. How do the walls of those forts compare in weight with 
 this proposed lock ? 
 
 Answer. An engineer does not like to commit himself without having 
 the drawings, &c, before him. I did not lay the foundations of those 
 forts, but what I can say is this, that it is easy to ascertain the resist- 
 ance of the soil there, and what sort of a foundation is necessary to pre- 
 vent settlement. That is the A B C of engineering, so that you must 
 not think that is the great obstacle. By a new series of experiments 
 we can tell as nearly as you gentlemen can tell by figuring up auy ac- 
 count, and as accurately, as to the settlements ; then it is an easy prob- 
 lem to determine what width of foundation or what number of piles 
 shall be driven to obtain a proper resistance. Then again, I suppose 
 you have seen the plan of Major Howell, which is a most excellent one. 
 But I would not adopt that plan ; I would vary it. I think the modifi- 
 cation which General Barnard suggested at the time I was present at 
 their meeting would be a very advisable one. He makes masonry only 
 for the gates, and the rest of the lock would be a basin. He has two 
 gates, one in front and one behind; and the intermediate space is noth- 
 ing more than a wide basin, so that you have only the masonry neces- 
 sary to resist the pressure against the gates ; so that I consider it not 
 a difficult problem. The rest of the basin, to pass your vessels into, you 
 can make as long as you please, five, six, or seven hundred feet, if you 
 choose, and put the other lock at the extremity of that, and in between 
 you have a gentle slope requiring no masonry and no foundation ; that 
 is the view I would take of it. 
 
 Question. That would very much lessen the expense? 
 
 Answer. Very much indeed. You may have a little deposit at the 
 front of your gates, but that is easily removed by a dredger, because you 
 cannot put the gates right on the river, but a little back and the open- 
 ing there can always be kept by a dredger. There would be no difficulty 
 about that. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. Is it fair to presume if the fort which is near this spot re- 
 main without settling that the lock would ? 
 
 Answer O I think so. Our soil is pretty nearly the same at the 
 surface as it is 30 feet down. There is a little variation in the layers of 
 sand and mud and what no% and occasionally we come across a bed of 
 clav 5 or 6 feet in depth ; but you can take it as a rule that the soil is 
 nrettv nearly homogeneous from the surface down a great many feet. 
 If vou make vour experiments at a certain depth as to the resistance of 
 the soil then vou can tell exactly what sort ot a foundation you require 
 tn rpsist in anv given pressure. If you cannot obtain the resistance by 
 extension of your foundation-by giving width to the foundation, 
 thPn vou drive in piles besides, which gives you the resistance of the 
 r,ilPs A foundation has two resistances, that due to the pile and that 
 Ant in the surface of your crib-work or foundation. As an example : in 
 the custom-house, if they had driven piles below the foundation and laid 
 thP foundation on the piles and used the same crib- work that they used, 
 I am confident there would have been no settlement. As it is it has 
 
 ^Queitiom Timbers e for foundations kept from the air never rot, do 
 they? 
 
948 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Answer. Never. ••„„=, 
 
 Question. So that a timber foundation excluded from the air is as 
 good as a stone foundation 1 
 
 Answer. Perfectly. In making the repairs at Fort Saint Philip and 
 in removing the foundation in 1852 or 1853, 1 had to remove some ol 
 the foundations laid by the Spanish engineers. They were green tim- 
 bers, just cut from the banks of the river, and they were perfectly sound. 
 
 Question. I understood you to say that you had given this canal some 
 thought, and as an engineer you believed it to be practicable. 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; I would not hesitate to say that I consider it prac- 
 ticable, and I think that it is of such great importance that the Govern- 
 ment ought not to hesitate an instant in constructing it for the purpose 
 of having the use of the Mississippi Eiver as a harbor of refuge in the 
 event of a war, leaving aside it's commercial advantages, which are 
 enormous. The river defenses, of course, do not come up to my idea as 
 an engineer, but, at the same time, they could be improved so as to be 
 made impassable. 
 
 By Mr. Sherman : 
 
 Question. Have you studied the question as to the effect of large 
 ships cheapening transportation 1 
 
 Answer. I have not studied it, but I agree with those who have 
 written on the subject, that the proportion is enormously in favor of 
 large ships. 1 doubt not tbat before many years there will be commer- 
 cial vessels drawing 28 and 30 feet of water. The expenses are very 
 much reduced, as you are aware, on board of a large ship. They re- 
 quire fewer hands in proportion, and all the other current expenses are 
 less. I think their speed, in proportion, is greater also. I think the 
 Mississippi Eiver ought to have at least 25 feet of water on its bar. 
 
 Question. What is the depth of water from Vicksburgh down ? 
 
 Answer. It is pretty nearly what we have here. It varies here from 
 about 85 to 108 or 110 feet. 
 
 Question. Do you think it would be possible for vessels of 25 feet 
 draught to run up as high as Cairo ordinarily '? 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. What would be the point on the river to which such ves- 
 sels could go ? 
 
 Answer. I think the shallowest point commences at Memphis. 
 
 Question. That is about the head of deep-river navigation ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. Such a harbor as this, of course, would be then per- 
 fectly protected from any incursions if the forts were made stron.g enough 
 to resist say a fortuight, or a month ; for in that time we could transport 
 here a hundred or two hundred thousand men, if necessary, so that no 
 land force could possibly take the forts, and by a judicious system of 
 defense, of torpedoes and a boom or booms across the river and guns to 
 defend those torpedoes and booms, I consider that the river could be 
 made impassable. I have no hesitation in saying the river at the forts 
 could be made impassable. 
 
 By Mr. DAVIS: 
 Question. How far is it from here to Memphis? 
 Answer. I think it is about eight hundred miles. 
 Question. You are well acquainted with the mouth of the Mississippi? 
 Answer. Yes, sir. I was in charge of the improvements there for 
 several years previous to the war. 
 Question. Were you dredging there ? 
 Answer. Not exactly dredging, but I was superintendent of the oper- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 949' 
 
 •ations of some contractors here, who deepened the passes to about 18 
 feet lor the sum of $75,000. That was not by dredging, but by harrow- 
 ing and scraping, as they call it. 
 
 Question. During the war, I take it that there was nothing done in 
 any way to aid the depth of the channel 1 
 
 Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Question. At the end of the war do you know how its condition com- 
 pared with its condition at the commencement of the war? 
 
 Answer. The regimen of the river is pretty nearly uniform, and has 
 been the same as far back as we had any knowledge, but some of the 
 passes deepen and others become shallow. The depth at the Southwest 
 Pass has generally been from 15 to 16 feet of water. At Pass a l'Outre 
 it has varied from 12 to 15 feet ; that is about the range of the passes 
 there. I think, artificially, you can get about 20 feet of water, without 
 very extravagant expense, but if you stop your operations for any 
 length of time the bar will go back to its original depth. 
 
 Question. What is that ? 
 
 Answer. What I told you before. At the Southwest Pass from about 
 15 to 16 feet. 
 
 Question. Was that actually the fact during the war f 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; at least it must have been so. It has been so from 
 time immemorial. Prom the discovery of the mouth of the river and 
 Louisiana the depth at the Southwest Pass was about 14 feet. The amount 
 of water being the same passing through the passes, gives the same re- 
 gimen over the bars, taking all in all. Sometimes onepass gets deeper than 
 the other on account of the direction of the current, which strikes according 
 to the impact of the current. When 1 was in charge of the operations at 
 the mouth of the river, Pass a l'Outre, on account of a break that had 
 taken place above, at what they now call the Jump, which had turned the 
 thread of the current, was deeper than the Southwest Pass, and varied 
 from 16 to 17 feet, and the Southwest Pass averaged about 15 feet. It 
 depends entirely on the mass of water which passes through. I sup- 
 pose you are aware that when the river is low there is more water over 
 the bars than when it is high, and that 1 occurs for this reason, that 
 when the river is high it carries a great deal of sediment, which is de- 
 posited at the bars. When the river is low there is no sediment carried, 
 and when there are any of these southeasterly storms blowing for sev- 
 eral days they back up the water into the river, and as the water rushes 
 out it scours the bottom and gives you deep water in the passes, there 
 being no sediment to flow up again. 
 
 Examination of Charles Briggs, president of the Louisiana Mu- 
 tual Insurance Company. 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. How long have you been engaged in the insurance busi- 
 
 n6 Answer. As an underwriter, in one shape and another, about fifty 
 
 ^Question Can you give us the foreign rates of insurance between 
 this wort and Liverpool, and New York and Liverpool t 
 
 AnVwer I can. The rate in New Orleans is as near as it can be very 
 nearly double the New York rate. It is, perhaps, not quite double. 
 
 Question. Does it usually maintain that proportion ! 
 
 Answer Generally. It is a greater distance, and that causes it. 
 
950 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Question. Is it on account of distance wholly, or is there any other 
 reason? 
 
 Answer. I should think it would be entirely owing to distance, 
 
 Question. Do you, or do you not, regard the passage from here to 
 Liverpool as involving greater risks than the passage from New York 
 to Liverpool ? 
 
 Answer. Of course. 
 
 Question. 1 mean aside from distance. 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. I should suppose it would be during six months 
 of the year — during the six summer months. In the winter mouths I 
 should prefer the passage from here to that from New York. 
 
 Question. Does the danger of the passage materially enter into the 
 increased charge, or is it mainly the distance 1 
 
 Answer. I presume there must be some little increase in the risks, in 
 consequence of the passage by the Bahama Banks and through the 
 Elorida Channel. That view would apply almost altogether to sailing- 
 vessels. Where the ship has motive power within herself, as the steam- 
 ers have, I look upon the Bahama Banks as a bug-bear, because, for 
 ships coming from Europe and going to Europe, the channel is 
 thoroughly well lighted. There is no difficulty in going over and com- 
 ing from Europe. They make for the northern edge of the Bahama 
 Banks. The banks, as I say, are all thoroughly well lighted there. 
 They run down either along the Florida coast or the head of the banks, 
 the whole distance being thoroughly lighted, and with no risk whatever 
 by steam. Where vessels depend on sail, and meet with baffling winds, 
 calms, and currents, they are frequently set out of the channel, and the 
 risk is infinitely greater. 
 
 Question. What is the percentage of insurance from here to Liver- 
 pool? How does it range on sail and steam, giving them separately? 
 
 Answer. The difference now is from a quarter to a half per cent. 
 
 Question. Between sail and steam? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; that is, a difference of from 25 to 30 per cent, 
 upon the amount of the premium in favor of steam. 
 
 Question. What are the charges ? 
 
 Answer. The rate in the winter season is by sail 2 per cent. There 
 is a half per cent, difference. The rate by sail at this season of the 
 ye;ir, from hence to Liverpool, is 2 per cent., and one and a quarter per 
 cent, by steam. 
 
 Question. What is the present rate? 
 
 Answer. That is the present rate. 
 
 Question. Is it higher or lower in the summer months? 
 
 Answer. Lower. 
 
 Question. How does it range then ? 
 
 Answer. In the summer months it is generally about a half per cent, 
 lower by sail, and we have hitherto made a quarter less by steam. 
 
 Question. You insure on the river, do you not? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. What are your rates on the river between Cairo and here? 
 
 Answer. We charge three quarters per cent, on the river. 
 
 Question. What mainly constitutes the risk on the river between 
 here and Cairo ? 
 
 Answer. There is danger of collision, danger of burning, especially in 
 the case of cotton-boats, and danger of stranding. Boats in thick 
 weather and in fogs sometimes run against the bank or against a bar, 
 making either a total or an average loss. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 951 
 
 the^rf k\° n " IU J0Ur J ud S merit ) do SDa gs and bars materially increase 
 
 rw^f S t We ?" S' 56S ' they increas e jt ! bu t nothing compared with what it 
 uheu to oe, because a great many of the snags have been taken out. 
 me snags used to be a material increase of risk. 
 
 Question. What is the rate of insurance from Saint Louis to this 
 place? 
 
 Answer. One per cent. 
 
 Question. Do the snags and bars materially increase the risk there? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; more than they do below. The river between 
 Cairo and Saint Louis frequently gets down to 4J or 5 feet. From 
 Cairo to Memphis there is seldom less than 6 feet channel, and from 
 Memphis down we have deep water always. 
 
 Question. Do you -insure the lighter boats of the Upper Mississippi 
 above Saint Louis ? 
 
 Answer. No, sir ; that is all done above. I do not remember of ever 
 Laving had an application of that kind. 
 
 Question. Do you know whether the northern insurance companies 
 will insure those boats to come over from Saint Louis down here ? 
 
 Answer. I believe not. 
 
 By Mr. Conover : 
 
 Question. Tour rates here decrease during a certain portion of the 
 year, you say ? 
 
 Answer. Tes, sir. 
 
 Question. Are not the rates from New York decreased at that season 
 of the year that you decrease them here ? 
 
 Answer. I presume they are. The objection to the northern passage, 
 the route from New York, is their rock-bound coast, and the ice. Steamers 
 even sometimes run down to Cape Br.eton for coal. They get into heavy, 
 thick fogs and ice, have a rocky coast to encounter, neither of which 
 we have to encounter here. 
 
 Question. The rates from here are always greater than they are from 
 New York ? 
 
 Answer. Well, the distance from New York to Liverpool is about 
 twenty-seven hundred miles, and from here it is nearly live thousand 
 miles, or double that distance. We have, unfortunately, to run about 
 6° south before we can make any easting. We have to run down to the 
 line of the tropics before we can begin to run eastward, and then have 
 to come back again. I hope some day to see a canal through the penin- 
 sula of Florida, to bring the great West within fifteen days of Europe. 
 When that is done it will be a grand improvement. 
 
 Question. That is the point I am trying to get at,, whether these 
 rates are higher in consequence of the passage of the Florida Beefs 
 being so hazardous? 
 
 Answer. I, as an underwriter, the year round would rather take the 
 risk from' here than I would from the North, coming from Europe es- 
 pecially. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 
 Question. On sailing-vessels as well as steamers ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Question. As an underwriter, I understood you to say you would pre- 
 fer the risk from Liverpool to New Orleans. 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir; as a general thing 
 
 Question. Bather than from Liverpool to New lork ? 
 
952 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir ; on account of the extremity of the season there 
 compared with ours here. 
 
 By Mr. Conoyer : 
 
 Question. At all seasons of the year you would prefer that ? 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. Every day a ship is at sea there is a risk, and a 
 sailing-vessel going from here to Europe, or coming from Europe here, 
 is double, or nearly double, the time that she is in going to New York, 
 which will account for the difference on the score of difference of time 
 alone. I speak of that to show that the greater portion of the differ- 
 ence of rate is on account of the greater distance the vessels have to 
 run. 
 
 Question. Of course there is some difference on account of the dan- 
 gers of passing the Plorida,coast ? 
 
 Answer. In sailing-vessels I think there is, but not with steamers. 
 We shall do all our work with steamers, I hope, before long, and get rid 
 of sailing-vessels. 
 
 By Mr. Davis : 
 
 Question. To what extent do you insure on the value of the boats 
 and cargo coming down the river f 
 
 Answer. We never insure the boat in my'company, because we have a 
 large number of open policies out to our people, which cover all their 
 shipments, whatever the amount may be, and we never know until the 
 vessel arrives precisely what we have on board ; but the system of in- 
 suring for the cargo coming this way is to grant the factors and commis- 
 sion merchants open policies to cover all shipments to their address. 
 We generally stipulate to get all the information by telegraph that we 
 can, when a very large consignment is likely to come down, so as to 
 enable us to re-insure the excess that we are indisposed to carry. There 
 is no limit to our insurance on inward cargoes coming this way on 
 the river. Some of those factors might receive one of those open 
 policies of a thousand bales of cotton, worth $80,000, all insured in one 
 office. If the office can ascertain by any mode that they are going to 
 receive $80,000 worth on board of one of these boats, they would re-in- 
 sure with other companies in such proportion as would somewhat 
 relieve them. 
 
 Question. If a cargo is worth $10,000 at Saint Louis, to what extent 
 will you insure it coming here 1 
 
 Answer. The whole value of it. In old times they used to send it 
 down in fiat-boats, all under the charge of one man, and then there might 
 be an object in insuring for a portion only of the real value ; but when a 
 steamer brings down a cargo consigned to fifty people, and belonging to 
 fifty shippers, we think there is no danger of any collusion to destroy 
 the cargo, and, therefore, we insure the full invoice amount. 
 
 Question. Does that hold good across the Atlantic U 
 
 Answer. Yes, sir. On board of a ship there are generally eight, ten, 
 twelve, or fifteen shippers, and it would require a combination not likely 
 to take place among all those men to induce the captain of a ship to 
 destroy that cargo for the sake of the insurance money. 
 
 The committee here adjourned. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 953 
 
 Washington, D. C, January 19, 1874. 
 Examination of Oapt. C. W. Howell, U. S. A. : 
 
 The Chairman. Please state your connection with the works at the 
 mouth of the Mississippi Eiver, and briefly, the operations of the tow- 
 boat company which tend to obstruct your work. 
 
 Captain Howei.l. I am the officer of engineers in charge of the im- 
 provement at the mouth of tb.e Mississippi. The improvement is effected 
 by dredging a narrow channel across the bar. The channel has never 
 been more than 250 feet wide ; often not more than 50 feet. The depth 
 has ranged from 15 to 20£ feet. The width at Southwest Pass is now 
 three-quarters of a mile, and the normal depth is about 14 feet. At 
 Pass a POutre the width is about half a mile, and the normal depth 
 about 1LJ feet. The channel improved by dredging is but a narrow 
 passage through the bar, and is defined by buoys on the sides. It there- 
 fore requires care in running vessels through it to prevent them from 
 getting out of the channel and running aground on the sides. 
 
 The Chairman. Please state in what manner your work has been 
 obstructed by the tow-boat association, giving instances of such ob- 
 structions, and how it affects your work. 
 
 Captain Howell. The tow-boat association have at several times 
 obstructed the channel made by the dredges, tod have at some times 
 completely blockaded it. They do this by running vessels aground on 
 the sides of the channel. In that position such vessels induce rapid de- 
 posit in the channel, and are in the way of the dredge-boats. It is not 
 to the interest of the association to have a channel of more than about 
 16 feet in depth. This is shown by the fact that with a channel of that 
 depth, or less, they have a great deal more business by the way of 
 tugging, receiving a larger income from that business than they would 
 if the channel were in good condition. 
 
 The last blockade at Southwest Pass was started in March 10, 1873, 
 and in this way : The channel was only 17 feet deep at extreme low tide, 
 and heavy fogs were prevailing at that time. On the morning of the 
 10th the association, at low tide, took a heavy-draught ship, draw- 
 ing 19 feet, down to the bar. during a dense fog, when the buoys mark- 
 ing the channel could not well be seen. On arriving at the inner 
 end of the cut through the bar, at the wreck-buoy, it is reported to 
 me that the captains of the tow-boats— one on each side of the vessel- 
 differed as to the proper direction to take in going out. One backed 
 his boat and the other went ahead, thus placing the ship across the 
 channel and grounding her. It was then left by the boats in that posi- 
 tion for three days, thus completely blocking the channel, and before 
 the vessel could be got out of the way heavy steamers from New 
 Orleans came down and attempted, a crossing, grounded, and further 
 blockaded the bar. After this, as fast as one vessel would be taken out 
 of the wav the tow-boat association brought another clown, and so ob- 
 structed the bar that the dredging-boats could not dredge it. This con- 
 tinned for twenty days. In the meantime heavy-draught vessels were 
 rmV on and towed across, after several days being consumed, and lighter 
 HrmiP-ht vessels went in and out between the grounded vessels— vessels 
 Art wins 15 feet On the 30th of March all the vessels had been removed 
 frnm thebar except one large steamer. The dredging-boat, pulliugon her 
 rTntiiP morning of the 30th, got her straight in the channel and started 
 h^r She would have gotten out without difficulty if the' headway had 
 f n k p Dt up Just at that time one of the tow-boats attempted to tow 
 in a bark from outside, towed the bark directly across the entrance of the 
 
954 TRANSPORTATION. TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 channel, and ran her aground, cut her hawser, and left her in the way of 
 the steamer's getting out, and this made it necessary to stop the steamer, 
 and she again grounded, and could not be got off until the next morniug.. 
 Next morning she was put to sea, leaving the bar clear. The tow-boat 
 association had three ships awaiting inside near the bar, with the tow- 
 boats alongside, and one outside, ready to put on the bar as soon as 
 the steamer could be got off, so as to prevent dredging to open 
 the channel. The dredges were then removed to Pass a l'Outre, it being 
 evident that the association would not allow them to work effectively 
 at Southwest Pass. Since that time the greater number of vessels com- 
 ing and going from the port of New Orleans have been taken to South- 
 west Pass, the association being very careful to put only one vessel on 
 the bar at a time, to prevent any blockade. The association prefer to 
 have the dredges work at Southwest Pass, in order to force them from 
 Pass a l'Outre back to Southwest Pass. A few days ago an attempt 
 was made to blockade and destroy the channel at Pass a l'Outre by 
 running a bark aground on the side of the channel. My assistant en- 
 gineer, doing the dredging, reports that that was evidently the inten- 
 tion. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the maximum depth of water you can main- 
 tain by dredging at Pass a l'Outre? 
 
 Captain Howell. From 18 to 20 feet. I think I can maintain 20 
 feet. If I am permitted to regulate the use of the channel, I am sure 
 that I can maintain 18, and perhaps 19 feet. I expect to get 20 feet. 
 
 STATEMENT IN RELATION TO A SHIP-CANAL ACROSS THE PENINSULA 
 OF FLORIDA, MADE BEFORE THE SENATE COMMITTEE ON TRANS 
 PORTATION-ROTJTES TO THE SEABOARD, JANUARY 28, 1874. 
 
 Br Hon. J. T. Wall, op Florida. 
 
 Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen of the Committee : 
 
 When partizan and sectional feeling shall have lost some of its rancor, 
 and we shall have reached a point in our history when a full compre- 
 hension of the true mission of the Eepublic will be plain to all public 
 men, regardless of party, calm and dispassionate consideration will con- 
 cede that the paternal care exercised over the States by the Federal 
 Government, in the matter of internal improvements, through tangible 
 aid extended, has contributed in the past and will contribute in the 
 future more toward the success of our system of government, the devel- 
 opment of the resources of the States, and general prosperity of the 
 whole country than all other causes combined. 
 
 Decadence of sectional prejudices. 
 
 Even in the present, sectional prejudices are losing much of their sig- 
 nificance in the face of the material needs of the States hitherto most 
 prominent in adhering to doctrines which falsely charge encroachment 
 upon their functions when the General Government seeks, through leg- 
 islation, to equalize the benefits of our vast monetary resources, and to 
 harmonize the seemingly conflicting interests of the several sections of 
 the country. 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 955 
 
 Land-locked channel. 
 
 The grand scheme of a laud locked channel, or a system of inter-com- 
 mumcation. between the States whose produce naturally seeks a market 
 through the valley of the Mississippi, and at ports on the Atlantic sea- 
 board, by this shortest route to northern and foreign markets, is very 
 appropriately receiving the attention of all earnest men throughout 
 the land, and will doubtless be measurably successful through the care- 
 ful investigations and unbiased recommendations of this committee. 
 
 Weed of the aid of the Government. 
 
 That its accomplishment in the near future, in view of the require- 
 ments of the time, is assured, there can be no doubt, but no such work, 
 cosmopolitan in scope and dimensions, can or ought to be susceptible 
 of accomplishment without the aid of the General Government. The 
 concession of this fact in the outset will place the matter in its proper 
 light before the country. 
 
 Poverty of the Southern States. 
 
 The poverty, increased debt, and depreciated credit of the Southern 
 States, the result of the war, combine to make the undertaking of a great 
 international work of this kind, on the part of these States, simply im- 
 possible. To rely upon individual enterprise and the present and prospec- 
 tive resources of these poverty-stricken communities to join hands with 
 the more wealthy sections of the country, which will be benefited to a 
 larger extent by the accomplishment of this work, for such co-operation 
 as is needed to put it on a successful footing, is to postpone action in- 
 definitely. 
 
 The results of the tear. 
 
 One of the results of the war is a perceptible impetus given to public 
 sentiment in these States, which forces their institutions, habits, and 
 laws to conform with those of the more enlightened and prosperous sec- 
 tions of our country, and, in emulation of their energy, enterprise, and 
 progress, press forward to an equal place in the history of the nation. 
 
 The benevolence of the Government. 
 
 The broad benevolence which has in the past opened the channels of 
 communication and intercommunication which has done so much for the 
 development of the resources of other parts of the land, has the same 
 mission to perform for the South ; and in this interest it is not too much 
 to hope that all southern men will be of one mind, both as to the needs , 
 of our people and of the country and the means to be adopted to accom- 
 plish the end in view. However much they may differ on minor ques- 
 tions all will agree in pressing the claims of the South upon the General 
 Government, and earnestly advocating the aid required to meet the 
 growing needs of the commerce of the country and the demand of our 
 increased foreign communication. 
 
 System of canals. 
 
 Granting the feasibility of a canal-route over the Tehuantepec survey, 
 connecting the Atlantic with the Pacific, which is doubtless an accom- 
 
956 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 plishment of the near future, and a work that will be mainly constructed, 
 by this Government, the plan for an internal chain of water-communi- 
 cation designed to meet the needs of commerce flowing through this 
 canal from ocean to ocean, is of commanding importance. In this con- 
 nection, the States bordering on the Gulf of Mexico, and those whose 
 products naturally tend in that direction, deserve the consideration of 
 this committee. The route recommended by the commercial convention 
 which met at Baltimore in 1871, from the vicinity of Brownsville, in 
 Texas, through that State, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Geor- 
 gia, with an outlet by ship-canal through Florida, connecting the Gulf 
 of Mexico with the Atlantic, would be of little service and fall far short 
 of the needs of commerce without an open channel through the State of 
 Florida. 
 
 Florida ship-canal. 
 
 The geographical position of Florida will at once command attention 
 when considered in connection with the prosecution of this work, and 
 the importance of a ship-canal through that State has long since been 
 conceded. A partial survey was made by order of the Government, 
 with this end in view, and report made thereon, every way favorable, 
 dated May 1, 1855, giving an elaborate description of the region sur- 
 veyed, its many advantages, and the benefts that would accrue to com- 
 merce by the construction of the canal. This report in some particulars 
 will answer general purposes without favoring the particular route 
 surveyed or discriminating in favor of any other route recommended. 
 I quote from the report of that survey : 
 
 Extract from report of surrey. 
 
 "The general profile across the peninsula shows a gradual swell, both 
 from the Atlantic and Gulf coasts, to the middle, where is found a 
 range of broken sand-hills varying in height above the average level 
 of the interior from one hundred to one hundred and twenty five and 
 one hundred and fifty feet, and in width from one to three and four 
 miles. • 
 
 "The country is flat, thickly sprinkled with cypress and baygall 
 swamps ; and much of it to the eye presents no distinct or well-defined 
 system of drainage." * * ■ * "The line of canal found practi- 
 cable, and recommended as proper to connect the head of navigation 
 of the Saint John's with Tampa Bay, is as follows: Starting from the 
 Saint John's at the mouth of Weekivah Creek, the valley of this stream 
 is followed up until near its head, then in as direct a course as the 
 nature of the ground will admit of to the low depression of sand-hills 
 which form the crest of the summit divide of the interior ; from thence 
 the course is direct to the valley of the Hillsboro, which is followed 
 until the depth of water in the river is sufficient, and its course direct 
 enough to render it proper for the canal to enter it. * * * 
 
 The object of a ship-canal across the peninsula of Florida is too obvi- 
 ous to need more than a passiug notice. Attention has been turned to 
 the subject since 1824, and examinations of different routes made. The 
 -nterest which such an improvement possesses for the country rather 
 increases from year to year, as the commerce passing the straits of Flor- 
 ida increases', and accidents attending that navigation become more fre- 
 quent and more generally known. * * * The following extract 
 from House Doc. No. 136, giving somewhat in detail the sources makin«- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 957 
 
 up the total value of the Gulf commerce in 1852, is inserted as the most 
 recent information officially published." 
 
 The statement of the merchandise entering and leaving the American 
 ports of the Gulf was then given, as follows : 
 
 Foreign imports '. $20,000,000 
 
 Coastwise imports 50 000 000 
 
 ^P 01 * 8 115,000,000 
 
 Value of shipping in the trade. 
 
 The shipping engaged in carrying on this trade, and arriving at the 
 various Gulf ports, was estimated at nine hundred thousand tons, which, 
 valued at seventy-five dollars per ton, would be sixty-seven millions five 
 hundred thousand dollars ; and as these vessels make the voyage in and 
 out, the entire value of the tonnage, which annually passes Cape Florida 
 was one hundred and thirty-five millions of dollars, which, added to the 
 preceding amount of merchandise, made a grand aggregate of three 
 hundred and twenty-five millions of dollars, which annually passes to 
 and from the American ports of the Gulf of Mexico. To the above was 
 added the increased value of imports, exports, coasting trade and ton- 
 nage during four years, together with the very valuable California trade 
 and specie exports which had been passing through these straits at the 
 time this computation and report were made, and we would have a grand 
 total, with the increase of commerce for nearly twenty years, which 
 makes the Florida ship-canal an absolute necessity. 
 
 Saving of time and money. 
 
 The time gained during a voyage in and out of the Gulf, according 
 to the survey referred to, by using the canal, was stated at averaging 
 six days ; thus, a gain of eight days by a vessel bound into, and a gain 
 of four days by a vessel bound out of, the Gulf. To this time it would 
 be proper to apply an interest of six per cent, on all assumed capital 
 engaged in the trade. 
 
 Take, for example, the value of the coasting-trade, the imports coast- 
 wise and the tonnage of the coast-trade. The total value of this was 
 computed at the time of the survey at two hundred millions of dollars, 
 exclusive of an increase in the valuable commerce of California and the 
 Pacific coast for four years, the interest upon which for six days, the 
 time saved by the canal passage, would be, at six per cent., two hundred 
 thousand dollars per annum, and this, be it remembered, without com- 
 puting the enormous increase in the value of property engaged in this 
 commerce during two decades. And aside from this, the importance 
 of a ship-canal through the peninsula of Florida to international com- 
 merce is three-fold : ..*_,. ■ „„„/i w 
 
 1st. A saving of a large proportion of the insurance now imposed by 
 the perils of navigation by the Florida Straits. ^ , _ . , 
 
 2d Avoidance of that navigation and consequent benefit accruing to 
 property of this class, as will be shown hereafter. 
 
 3d An important saving of time, hence of interest, on capital engaged 
 
 in this trade. 
 
 Commercial advantages of the canal. 
 
 From these facts alone I respectfully submit that it is clearly demon- 
 strate" that the construction of this ship-canal through Florida would 
 
958 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 bear a more important relation to the commerce of the Gulf, in which 
 the whole country is interested, than toward the State of Florida, or 
 any of the States bordering on the Gulf. It is an accepted fact that all 
 produce finding its market on the Gulf nets less to the producer than 
 the same class of produce finding its way to the Atlantic sea-board. On 
 this principle all internal communication now projected by the chief sea- 
 ports on our Atlantic front, and advanced by this committee and the 
 friends of the development of our national resources, naturally tend 
 toward the valley of the Mississippi and tributary streams, and the other 
 streams emptying into the Gulf. 
 
 Rivers flowing toward the Gulf. 
 
 In the general system of communication and intercommunication, 
 now before the country and commended to this committee, doubtless 
 the claims of the rivers referred to have been advanced, in connection 
 with its general features; as well as many others which attract atten- 
 tion and are navigable during the most of the year for heavier draught 
 vessels than those which ply the coast, from St. Mark's to the Kio 
 Grande. 
 
 In view of this fact it would be feasible when the canal through Flor- 
 ida is completed, for light-draught vessels loaded on the Upper Missouri, 
 Mississippi, Ohio, Arkansas, Red, or in fact any of the rivers of the 
 Mississippi Valley or Gulf States, to proceed at once, without breaking 
 bulk, to any Atlantic sea-port. 
 
 The commerce of all the rivers referred to tends toward the Gulf, not 
 excepting the Ohio, nine-tenths of which goes down the river. 
 
 Inland communication from Lake Superior and back. 
 
 A vessel on either of the great lakes, Superior, Huron, Erie or On- 
 tario, started toward the western waters, can reach the Mississippi by 
 three different routes, and descend that river to Lake Pontchartrain, 
 and keeping inside the sea-islands and reefs which skirt the coast, form 
 ing a protected inland navigation, will reach the western terminus of 
 the Florida ship-canal, and cross the peninsula and the inland naviga- 
 tion along the coasts of Georgia and South Carolina, to Savannah or 
 Charleston, and, with the exception of a short break on the coast of 
 North Carolina, this internal communication continues thence, uninter- 
 ruptedly to New York, up the Hudson River, across the State of New 
 York by the Erie Canal, and into the lakes from whence it started. 
 
 Considerations in favor of the canal. 
 
 Two very important considerations in favor of the construction of the 
 Florida ship-canal are — 
 
 1st. Without exception it will be the safest water communication be- 
 tween every important city in the United States for light-draught ves- 
 sels. 
 
 2d. A boat loaded on the highest navigable waters of the Missouri 
 may unload on the Atlantic sea-board. 
 
 As will be seen, the ship-canal through the peninsula of Florida, while 
 shortening the passage from South to North, would afford a sheltered 
 and protected navigation from New Orleans to New York, which cannot 
 in case of war with a foreign power, be readily interrupted by the 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 959 
 
 enemy's forces, even supposing them in complete possession of the 
 waters bordering on the coast. 
 
 The position assumed is entirely tenable when it is demonstrated that 
 Were are but three short breaks in the entire inland navigation from New 
 v.ork to JNew Orleans. And these advantages can be secured to the coun- 
 try by the completion of the Florida ship-canal alone; without reference 
 to other intercommunications, improvements very iustly considered in 
 this connection. 
 
 Losses to commerce ly navigation of Florida Straits. 
 
 It is perfectly safe and within bounds to estimate the commercial prop- 
 erty, at this time, which annually incurs the risks consequent upon, the 
 need of a^ship-canal through Florida, at five hundred millions of dollars. 
 
 The immense extent of the actual risks incurred will be better appre- 
 ciated by a knowledge of the number of vessels partially wrecked on 
 the Florida coast from 1848 to 1859, inclusive, with the values of ves- 
 sels and cargoes, the amount of salvage allowed, and the total expenses 
 incurred by vessels adjudicated at Key West : 
 
 Years. 
 
 Vessels. 
 
 Value. 
 
 Salvage. 
 
 Total ex- 
 expense. 
 
 1848 
 
 41 
 46 
 30 
 34 
 23 
 57 
 59 
 80 
 71 
 59 
 52 
 66 
 
 $1,282,000 
 
 1, 305, 000 
 
 929, 800 
 
 950, 000 
 
 675, 000 
 
 1, 973, 000 
 
 2, 469, 000 
 
 2, 844, 177 
 
 2, 000, 000 
 
 1, 837, 950 
 
 2, 692, 000 
 
 3, 035, 400 
 
 $125, 000 
 127, 870 
 122, 831 
 75, 850 
 80, 112 
 174, 950 
 182, 400 
 100, 495 
 163,117 
 101, 890 
 142, 182 
 198, 404 
 
 $200, 000 
 219, 160 
 
 1849 
 
 1850 
 
 200, 860 
 
 1851 
 
 165, 000 
 
 1852 
 
 163, 000 
 
 1853 
 
 330, 100 
 
 1854 
 
 211,808 
 
 1855 
 
 190, 910 
 
 1856 
 
 1857 
 
 • 262, 664 
 171,772 
 
 1858 
 
 247, 557 
 
 1859 
 
 293, 497 
 
 
 
 / 
 
 618 
 
 23, 043, 327 
 
 1, 595, 101 
 
 2, 666, 388 
 
 The total wrecks south of Cape Canaveral, unadjudicated, would prob- 
 ably foot up an equal amount in number and losses. 
 
 Several routes recommended. 
 
 Of the several routes recommended for the canal through the State of 
 Florida, I shall not presume to indicate a preference of any one to the 
 prejudice of the others, feeling assured that the matter will be satisfac- 
 torily arranged and the route fixed by the survey recommended and 
 contemplated in the report of May 1, 1855. 
 
 The route surveyed. 
 
 Of the route surveyed at that time it has been stated that a straight 
 line drawn on the map of Florida, across the narrowest part of the penin- 
 sula from the Gulf to the Atlantic, will strike from the mouth of the 
 Withlacoochee across Lake George and reach the ocean near the head 
 of Matanzas Eiver. Then the three points, the mouth of the Withlacoo- 
 chee Lake George, and the mouth of the Saint John's and Fernaudina, 
 
960 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 are on or near the shortest route across the peninsula, and the most 
 direct and shortest route from Yucatan to New York. 
 
 This route would begin at the mouth of the Withlacoochee, running 
 up that river to Lake Pansofrkee, thence, with fourteen miles of canaling, 
 to Lakes Dunham and Harris, with one and three-quarter miles of canal- 
 ing to Lake Griffin, thence with three miles of canaling to Buck Lake, 
 and thence with eighteen miles of canaling to Lake George, which ter- 
 minates the necessity of any improvement except that of the inside pas- 
 sage to Fernandina, if that point be made the port of final shipment for 
 heavy-draught vessels. 
 
 Silver Spring route. 
 
 Another route which has attracted some attention also starts from the 
 mouth of the Withlacoochee. It is from the starting point — 
 
 To Fort Clinch 9 miles. 
 
 To Blue Spring 15 " 
 
 To Silver Spring 24 " 
 
 Through Lake Kerr to Saint John's River 28 " 
 
 Entrance of canal to mouth of Saint John's 90 " 
 
 Through "Sisters" to Fernandina.. ., 20 " 
 
 Total ■. 186 " 
 
 Of this route it is stated that the track of a vessel passing around the 
 peninsula of Florida measured from a point in the Gulf west of the mouth 
 of the Withlacoochee, to one due east from Fernandina in the Atlantic, 
 is not less than one thousand and fifty miles, while the whole length of 
 the inland navigation, from the mouth of the Withlacoochee to the bar 
 at Fernandina, is one hundred and eighty miles, saving in distance eight 
 hundred and sixty-four miles. A steamer speeding at an average of eight 
 miles per hour at sea would require five days and eleven and a quarter 
 hours to make the passage ; while estimating through the canal proper — 
 sixty-two miles — at four miles an hour and eight miles per hour via the 
 Saint John's and Bisters the rest of the distance, with two hours for de- 
 tention at locks, the passage through would require a little less than 
 thirty-three hours — a saving in time of four days and two and a half hours^ 
 
 Suwanee and Santa Fe route. 
 
 Another route commended for a ship-canal is from the mouth of the 
 Suwanee on the Gulf, to the head of navigation on the Santa Fe River, 
 thence by excavation to Black Creek, thence to the Saint John's River, 
 thence through the ''Sisters" to Fernandina. 
 i 
 
 Other routes. 
 
 In addition there are other routes recommended for the possession of 
 desirable advantages for a ship-canal ; but I shall not presume upon the 
 patience of the.committee by elaborating at length upon them, but will 
 be content to give a general description of all, with their outlines and 
 topography, and commend them all to the attention of the committee, 
 with the earnest hope that they report in favor of a survey to decide 
 upon the most feasible route. 
 
 Inland steamboat passage. 
 
 An inland passage for steamboats is also recommended, extendiug 
 from the Saint John's River to Key West, by way of Pablo— near the 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 961 
 
 mouth of the Saint John's— North Eiver, Mantanzas, Halifax, Musquito, 
 lnd ia n Ewer, and Jupiter, Lake Worth, Hillsborough, New Eiver, and 
 .KiscayneBay. The route would be almost straight, and inside all the 
 WJ $h ■ ■% est ' nowh ere more than a mile from the sea. 
 
 Ihis is, also, respectfully commended to the consideration of the com- 
 mittee. 
 
 Fernandina or Saint Mary's Harbor. ■ 
 
 One fact in this connection may be taken as conclusive, and that is, 
 that the Fernandina or Saint Mary's Harbor is the natural terminus of 
 any canal through Florida, connecting the Gulf with the Atlantic ; for 
 it is the best port on the Atlantic coast capable of admitting vessels of 
 larger draught than ten or twelve feet ; hence the only place where trade 
 would center on its way eastward and be met by vessels for distribution 
 to home and foreign markets. 
 
 The claims of Florida. 
 
 I take the liberty to call the attention of the committee to the area, 
 population, soil, and products of Florida, and the consequent opportunity 
 for development in the event of the construction of this great work of 
 international importance now under consideration. 
 
 Area. 
 
 Florida is a much larger State than Illinois or Iowa. It contains 
 fifty-nine thousand two hundred and sixty-eight square miles, or thirty- 
 seven million nine hundred and thirty-one thousand five hundred and 
 twenty acres. According to the records of the Land-Office, therehave been 
 sold one million eight hundred and twenty-two thousand four hundred 
 and thirty-one acres ; entered under the homestead law, three hundred 
 and eighty-nine thousand one hundred and forty-seven acres ; granted 
 for military services, four hundred and sixty-five thousand nine hundred 
 and forty-two acres ; officially approved under railroad grants, one mil- 
 lion seven hundred and sixty thousand four hundred and sixty -eight 
 ' acres ; approved as swamp-land and given to the State, ten million nine 
 hundred and one thousand two hundred and seven acres ; granted for 
 internal improvements, five hundred thousand acres; granted for educa- 
 tional purposes, one million six hundred and sixty-three acres ; granted 
 to individuals and companies, fifty-two thousand one hundred and four- 
 teen acres ; granted for Deaf and Dumb Asylum, twenty thousand nine 
 hundred and twenty-four acres. 
 
 Population. 
 
 According to the census of 1870, the population of the State was 
 187 748 Since 1860 the colored population has increased from 62,777 
 to 91,698, and the white from 77,746 to 96,059. 
 
 Soil. 
 
 Perhaps in no State in the Union can there be found so great a variety 
 of soil as in Florida. This is at once apparent . when it is considered 
 that there is scarcely a vegetable product of any portion of the country 
 that is not found flourishing in tropical luxuriance in Florida, besides 
 a very long list of which that State enjoys a monopoly. 
 61 TS 
 
962 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 Climate. 
 
 A writer describes the climate of Florida as eight months of summer 
 and four of warm weather. This is measurably true, but it must not be 
 understood as conveying the idea of the intense heat of the tropics ; on 
 the contrary, during the summer of 1872, memorable for its great and 
 oppressive heat, when the thermometer in New York, Boston, and other, 
 cities North showed occasionally a temperature of 104 degrees, the 
 highest range attained in Florida was only 96 degrees, and only twice 
 was it observed at that height. The mean average during the entire 
 summer will be found only a few degrees above .that of the Northern 
 States. The climate of Florida resembles in equability that of Barba- 
 does or Maderia, both of which are held in high esteem by physicians 
 as resorts for invalids. The healthfulness of Florida is one of its chief 
 characteristics, and its sanative influences are so well recognized that 
 it has become of late years an asylum for invalids from all parts of the 
 country. 
 
 Products. 
 
 The principal products of the State are, timber rich in naval stores, 
 cotton, sugar-cane, vegetables of nearly every species grown in the gar- 
 dens of the North, Indian corn, rice, indigo, sisal hemp, ramie plant, 
 tobacco, and arrow -root. 
 
 Fruits. 
 
 Florida is exceptionally prolific in fruits, and their culture, developed 
 by proper inter-communication, will become one of the most valued aux- 
 iliaries of our commerce. The orange, grape, fig, peach, banana, plain- 
 tain, cocoa-nut, guava, lemon, lime, pine-apple, quince, and pomegranate, 
 grow spontaneously, and need but the inducement of a safe and quick 
 means of transportation to be developed into one of the safest industries 
 of the country, capable of supplying the demand of the whole country 
 for these luxuries ; and would, undoubtedly, because of their greater 
 abundance, so lessen their price to the consumer, as to place them within 
 the enjoyment of all classes'of our citizens. 
 
 Market gardening. 
 
 With better means of communication, market gardening will become 
 one of the most remunerative callings in the State. Peas, beans, lettuce, 
 cabbages, cucumbers, tomatoes, egg-plants, turnips, beets, radishes, green 
 corn, asparagus, and rhubarb can be placed in New York two mouths 
 before the vegetables of any other section appear; and at prices at once 
 reasonable to the consumer and profitable to the producer. 
 
 General advantages. 
 
 The advantages accruing from the soil, climate, and products of the 
 State, it will be seen, will be general, contributing much toward the 
 facilities and economy of commerce and the development of compara- 
 tively new industries, that any other single State whose inter-communi- 
 cating facilities are sought to be augmented. 
 
 System of quick transportation. 
 
 The system of cheap and quick transportation in contemplation would 
 be of little avail if the produce of the " Great West," which naturally 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 963 
 
 finds its way to the valley of tbte Mississippi, and via that river to the 
 Gulf ports, did not find an outlet through Florida to the Atlantic sea- 
 board, which is situated just across the pathway of trade between New 
 York and New Orleans. 
 
 Demands of commerce. 
 
 National and international commerce demand a highway across the 
 peninsula of Florida for vessels which traverse the Gulf of Mexico, and 
 the natural resources along any line which may be adopted through 
 Florida, as the most practicable, assure an easy construction without 
 the costly appliances of art. 
 
 The completion of this canal presents such advantages to the com- 
 mercial world in the saving of time, distance and expense, the avoidance 
 of dangerous navigation, economy in extra insurance to the extent ot 
 millions, and thesaving of fortunesannuallylostin vessels plying through 
 the straits of Florida, that with some degree of faith I express the hope 
 that this project will be first to secure the favorable consideration ot 
 this committee and the Government. 
 
 Advantages of general canal facilities. 
 
 This canal, in connection with the one contemplated across the Tehuan- 
 tepee survey and the Southern Pacific Eailroad, will open the highway 
 to the Pacific Ocean and to all Eastern Asia, and establish commerce 
 with Japan and China and the East Indies, as well as open to the world 
 the granaries of the " Great West." 
 
 Benefits to the Government. 
 
 In peace it will give to the United States Government a prestige and 
 power that will place the nation in an advanced position ; and in war, a 
 land-locked channel, and secure passage for our Army and Navy. I am 
 sure I express the sentiments of the people of the State of Florida and 
 of the South when I present the assurance of their commendation of the 
 earnestness with which these investigations have been prosecuted. And 
 that they have the fullest hope, and entertain the earnest wish that the 
 results of the arduous labors, so faithfully performed at all seasons and 
 localities, will be alike creditable to the Transportation Committee oi 
 the United States Senate, the Government of the United States, and con- 
 duce to the welfare of the country and the commercial interests of the 
 civilized world. 
 
 Washing-ton, D. C, February 10, 1874. 
 
 James B. Eades, civil engineer of Saint Louis, Mo. 
 
 . rin . ,•„ to deenen one of the mouths of the Mississippi 
 
 The P^» to ° n ^ v °pSfiSm the Government until the results 
 
 Eiver, and ™t to receive pay of ^^ ^ cogt tQ 
 
 which are g uar ?^?/^ K» MO ; $2,000,000 it is proposed shall 
 the Government won Id ^J^^**^ \ n a ma nner satisfactory 
 be paid when 20 ieet i s oui* h ^ mcreased 
 to the President of the Unite ^ates> ^ amount wiU becom e due 
 S°S3f n ^SS22' } 1 Sd l thereafter, when 28 feet shall have peen 
 
'64 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 obtained, for every year that depth shall be maintained uninterruptedly, 
 the sum of $500,000 shall be paid for ten years to strengthen and sus- 
 tain tbe works which it is proposed to build there. The execution of 
 these works will produce this depth immediately on their being executed ; 
 they will have to be strengthened afterward by the deposition of stone 
 and in other manner, and this $500,000 per annum is to provide for 
 that additional work. 
 
 The principles which underlie the method which I propose to use may 
 be referred to two simple laws — one having reference to the effect of the 
 current, and the other the influence which retards the flow of it. These 
 streams are simply transporters of heavy materials to the sea, and their 
 power to transport this material depends upon the rapidity of the cur- 
 rent. All streams passing through an alluvial or sandy region will pick 
 up from the sides and bottom of the channel the load which is due to 
 their velocity. The moment that velocity is slacked a portion of that 
 load is let go. The moment that velocity is increased they commence 
 to take up an increased load. . 
 
 I call your attention to one phenomenon which is familiar probably to 
 Senator Alcorn. We have in the Mississippi Eiver many instances where 
 one bend has the banks on its concave side rapidly destroyed at times, 
 while the corresponding banks in the bend below is not at all injured. 
 Engineers and the writers on these subjects refer the destruction of the 
 banks to the impinging of the current against them. I take issue with 
 them on that, because such a theory will not account for the phenomena 
 that are presented. One bank, in one bend, may be caved in' while the 
 reverse bend, just below, may have its bank totally uninjured, while the 
 same rapidity of current exists in both bends. Invariably above the 
 l>t%od which is being destroyed we find a wide portion of the river where 
 ;J»e shoals and bars are found. Now, if we imagine a rise in the river 
 iA any given depth, say 10 feet, coming down, its current will be increased 
 by being crowded into the bends above, and as its velocity increased, so 
 would the amount of solid matter carried by it be proportionately in- 
 creased. The moment it comes into this wide expanse of the river, its 
 current is checked because it cannot fill that cross-section of channel- 
 way and maintain the same velocity ; hence it lets go its load and forms 
 the bars which are only found in these wide places. As the stream 
 passes on, denuded of a portion of its load into the next bend below, it 
 recovers its load as its current is again restored, and when thus loaded 
 it goes into the second bend below without the power to abrade or in- 
 jure it at all. In proof of my theory I will cite the instance of the 
 Bonnet Cerre crevasse. The depth of the river, and a cross-section of 
 it, had been obtained by engineers, both below where the crevasse 
 occurred and above. The depth of water just above the crevasse was 
 130 feet to high-water mark, and below it was 130 feet also, prior to the 
 crevasse. After the crevasse had occurred it was found that the bottom 
 of the river had filled up 50 feet below the crevasse, leaving a depth of 
 only 80 feet. The application of this law t& the solution of this phe- 
 nomenon is perfectly plain. The volume of the water, which was neces- 
 sary to fill the original cross-section of the river, and maintain the velo- 
 city requisite to keep its load in suspense, was not there after the cre- 
 vasse had occurred. A large portion of that volume had passed off by 
 the crevasse, and what remained was not sufficient to fill that cross- 
 section and maintain the same velocity ; hence it had to flow slower 
 when past the crevasse, and the slower speed resulted in depositing 
 a portion of the load and reducing the sectional area of the channel. 
 This deposition continued until the capacity of the channel was suffi 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 965 
 
 ciently reduced to restore to the current the proper velocity, and when 
 this was done no further deposit could take place. 
 
 i he whole southern portion of. the Mississippi River, from Bayou 
 bara down, is an illustration of the truth of this theory. Here is a 
 bend just above Port Saint Philip which has existed perhaps as long 
 as the white man has known this river, and the whole current goes 
 directly against its concave bank— impinges against it without percepti- 
 ble etfcect. It still stands there, and it will be noticed that it is quite as 
 narrow there as at any other part of the river. 
 
 The width of the liver is remarkably uniform for the last two hundred 
 miles, and it is remarkably uniform in the passes until they come out to 
 the sea. 
 
 I alluded to a second law that is concerned in the solution of this 
 problem, which refers to the friction, or retarding element, checking the 
 flow of the river. The greater the frictional surface of a given body of 
 water the more slow will it flow over that surface with a given inclina- 
 tion. This explains why streams like the Ohio, the Tennessee, and the 
 Cumberland, with a very much greater fall per mile, have less current 
 than the Mississippi River. The volume of the Mississippi River is so- 
 great in proportion to the friction of its sides and bottom that it flows 
 much more rapidly than those streams. 
 
 In the Southwest Pass there are several miles where the width of the 
 stream is very uniform, and the depth is equally uniform. Wherever the 
 river widens the depth shallows. The narrower it is, the less fric- 
 tional surface will there be beneath it. When we enter the Gulf we 
 encounter a third element in the problem, which is the reflex action of 
 the waves, caused by storms that stir up the bottom, and drive the ma- 
 terial in against the shore. Through this material thus driven shore- 
 ward the Mississippi has to struggle and make its way. This reflex 
 action is superficial, however, in its effect, and does not extend more 
 than 20 or 25 feet below the surface. It takes very violent storms to 
 disturb the material which lies on the bottom in that depth of water. 
 
 If we assume that in the Southwest Pass, with a width of a thousand 
 feet, we have a depth of 60 feet of water, we will continue that depth 
 by building parallel jettees of the same width to the crest of the bar 
 and having but a thousand feet between these jettees at the crest of 
 the bar we have every right to infer that we will have 60 feet of water 
 between them, as we have between the banks and in the pass above. 
 It should be borne in mind that a river will flow through still water 
 with less friction than through earth. Therefore, when the river de- 
 bouches into the salt water, it suffers no greater retardation by meeting 
 the water of the sea and passing through it than it encounters in the 
 pass itself, where it is inclosed by a wall of earth. It is a fact that in 
 the Mississippi River, just below the mouth of the Missouri, in times of 
 flood the Missouri River marks its channel distinctly in the Mississippi 
 River for twenty miles ; the line of demarkation between the two rivers 
 
 1S AtTthe Southwest Pass we have a width of 10,000 feet across the bar, 
 as asrainst a thousand feet in the navigable part of the pass itself. It 
 is evident that the river is unable to maintain the depth which it has in 
 the T>a,ss over this great width at its mouth ; hence it must let go a por- 
 tion of its load and shoal up at its mouth until its velocity is restored 
 hv this shoaling process. The stream will make its own width of 
 Channel or its own depth of channel. A certain velocity and a certain 
 volume requires a certain area. If it does not get it in width it will 
 o-et it in depth, and when it has that it ceases to deposit and to cut. 
 
966 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 The deposit which is going on at the mouth of the Mississippi Eiver is 
 beyond the bar, and on the shore-lines where the river is very wide, the 
 current being most rapid in the middle or deepest part over the bar. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Will not your plan require the closing of the other two 
 mouths of the Mississippi ? 
 
 Answer. Not necessarily. 
 
 Q. If you narrow this channel near the bar, where it is quite wide, to 
 a thousand feet, while it is at its present depth, will not that require 
 the other two mouths to be closed ? 
 
 A. Not at all. It would be impossible to construct jettees so rapidly 
 as to cause the water to back up above if they were parallel jettees, and 
 no greater in width than the narrowest part of the pass. 
 
 Q. After you have narrowed the channel to the crest of the bar, will 
 not the deposits on the outside be made in the same condition that they 
 are now, and require a perpetual continuation of your jettees? 
 
 A. The deposit which is going on out of the bar, and by which the 
 continual growth of the river is affected, into the Gulf, is the result, 
 mainly, of the reflex action of the waves in stirring up this sediment 
 and driving it back, extending the shore-line of the whole delta of the 
 Mississippi Eiver. That action, as I have said, is superficial ; that it 
 does not extend very deep. It is found to be a remarkable fact that 
 wherever the jaws of earth or banks of a stream extend out into the 
 sea. boldly protecting the mouth of the stream from the lateral action 
 of the waves, there is no deposit, and the mouth is invariably deep. 
 The Mississippi has no such jaws of earth, or protecting banks. 
 
 Q. You insist, then, that by extending this thousand feet by means of 
 jettees to the crest of the bar, the force of the water would carry out 
 the deposit of the water, and that it would accumulate on the outside 
 as it has heretofore done 1 
 
 A. I mean that it will not accumulate in front of this outlet. The 
 material will unquestionably be thrown back on each side of the jettees, 
 and in along course of time the shore-line may be advanced to the jettee- 
 heads. After the shore-line has reached the jettee-heads, then, a recur- 
 rence of the present phenomenon of the Mississippi River — its fish-tail 
 form — will be reproduced. 
 
 Q. And the jettees have to be extended? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What has been the system of jettees tried at the mouth of the 
 river, or has there been any such system tried ? 
 
 A. Messrs. Humphreys and Abbot, in their report on the physics of 
 the Mississippi Eiver, page 455, indorse the jettee system for its im- 
 provement ; and they state, in a foot-note at the bottom of the page, 
 that the jettee system has never been tried at the mouth of the Missis- 
 sippi. I am glad that my attention has been called to this, as it enables 
 me to refute a statement which has been advanced in opposition to this 
 theory that the jettee system had been tried there by Craigo and Eightor. 
 The foot-note referred to states that the contractors (Craigo and Eightor) 
 built a single line of insecure jettee, which could not stand the force of 
 the sea. 
 
 By Mr. West : 
 Q. What do you call parallel jettees f 
 
 A. Those which would give artificial banks to the river, like those 
 which the river has above, one on each side. I will state that the mis- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 967 
 
 take which is made in the application of the jettee system by engineers 
 comes from a want of observance of the laws which regulate the carrying 
 capacity ot the stream. They are frequently designed converging. The 
 result is that we invariably find shoal water where the jettees are wide 
 
 aP rT w£ P Water at the mouth of * he jettee. 
 
 a ' wu e would y° u Propose to begin the upper portion of the jettees ? 
 
 A. lhat would be a matter which I should want to give some more 
 mature thought to before commencing. I would not want to place them 
 so narrow as to produce a depth of 60 feet, which I should get if I put 
 them only a thousand feet apart, because 60 feet of water would involve 
 a great difficulty in maintaining the jettees. 
 
 Q. It would be some place higher up the river than the commence- 
 ment of the bar, would it not ? 
 
 A. It would be at least five miles above the bar. 
 
 Q. Then you will continue those jettees, as I understand you, directly 
 to the bar ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; to the crest of the bar. 
 
 Q. And is your theory, then, that the increased velocity of the current 
 which you will get by confining and concentrating the volume of water 
 will cut the bar out ? 
 
 A. I will explain that the velocity which will be found between those 
 jettee heads or outlets will be no greater than it is to-day after they are 
 completed. During their construction the current will be accelerated 
 to some extent. That acceleration is equivalent to loading up, taking 
 out the material from the bottom, the only place it can get at, and it 
 will gradually increase its cross-section there until the present current 
 is maintained. 
 
 Q. Making the increased velocity perform the functions of a dredge 
 on the bar ? 
 
 A. For the time being, and after it has been deepened to its normal 
 depth, then the velocity will only be that which is necessary to carry 
 the load which the stream has, out into the sea, because if it were any 
 greater than that it would continue to cut. I want to make that plain 
 to you, that if the velocity were more rapid than it is to-day it would 
 continue to cut as long as it were maintained more rapidly. 
 
 Q. By the construction of these jettees do you propose to confine the 
 entire volume of the river in that particular pass within those jet- 
 tees? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; unquestionably. 
 
 Q. There will be no escaping, if I can so express it, above the 
 
 A. There will be no reason for that whatever, because the jettees will 
 
 create no rise above. . , „ .,,, ,. 
 
 O Then as I understand you, you will take the points of width ot 
 the river naturally that you want to maintain for the width of your 
 river when the jettees are completed? 
 
 A Yes sir- and that width would probably be l,500orl,800feet, so that 
 instead of having a little channel for ships to pass in and out, it would 
 give you a magnificent entrance into one of the finest harbors in the 
 
 ^°0 Your proposition is to the effect that when 20 feet is obtained you 
 shall be paid $2,000,000. I understand from the Chief of Engineers, 
 r Vneral Humphreys, that he can obtain 20 feet of water by doubling 
 the present dredged force, now made use of by the United States, which 
 would cost $500,000 per annum. 
 A. The possibility of dredging the channel by the present system, at 
 
968 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 the mouth of the Mississippi, is utterly out of the question. If you in- 
 crease the cross-section of the river at the bar, you require an increased 
 volume of water to maintain the same current. You have no increased 
 volume of water, but you increase the section by the dredge, which di- 
 minishes the current and causes a constant deposit right in the place ; 
 fills it up as fast as you can dredge it out. The present system of 
 dredging is carried on, not by removing the earth, but simply by stir- 
 ring it up from the bottom with the fallacious idea that the current of 
 the river will carry it out to the sea. The current being already loaded 
 with all it can carry, will take up no more, and the material settles 
 back. 
 
 Q. How do you account for the fact that it does by its present exca- 
 vating process increase the depth? 
 
 A. The present method of dredging is by stirring up the bottom with 
 the propeller-screw of the dredge-boat, haviug an iron apron inclined be- 
 hind the propeller at such angle that the muddy water is thrown up near 
 th e surface over this apron, for the purpose of getting it up as high as pos- 
 sible in the stream. The effect of the propeller is simply to stir up the 
 bottom, soften the mud, and make it more easy for a ship to plow her 
 way through it, and this increased depth results from that operation. 
 The fact that it is of no permanent character at all is shown by its con- 
 tinually filling up immediately after the dredge-boat leaves it. Again; 
 by producing a depth of 20 feet of water by the dredge-boat, if it were 
 possible, it would simply be a narrow channel through which it would 
 be very difficult for ships to steer with accuracy in the waste of water that 
 is down there, without buoys or channel-marks, and they would be con- 
 stantly liable to go aground. My proposition does not simply stop with 
 the obtaining of 20 feet of water, but it provides for a payment to me 
 and my associates, when I shall have obtained 20 feet, and given that 
 evidence to the Government of the plan being successful. 
 
 Q. Then if you obtain 20 feet lor three months, and were paid the 
 $2,000,000, that would be an acquittal on your part of your part of the 
 contract, would it not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that might be so construed. It would not be considered 
 so by me nor by my associates, because when 20 feet is obtained it will 
 be at an expenditure of certainly three-fifths of the total cost of pro- 
 ducing 28 feet. To get 20 feet would be an absolute proof of our ability 
 to earn the remaining $8,000,000. 
 
 Q. Do you distinguish technically by your terms between the heads 
 of your jettees and the termination that is on the crown of the bar ? What 
 do you call that 1 
 
 A. That is called the head of the jettee. 
 
 Q. What would this be farther up the river ? 
 
 A. There is no particular name to that part. It is the upper end of 
 the jettee. 
 
 Q. As to the construction of the head of the jettees, which will be on 
 the crown of the bar, will they be exposed to the action of the sea in 
 the case of a violent storm ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What will be their nature ; a permauent mason-work ? 
 
 A. They will be composed of stone to a large extent. 
 
 Q. Sufficiently strong to meet that difficulty ? 
 
 A. In answer to your question, I will state that the bill will provide 
 for an annual payment of $500,000 for the purpose of strengthening 
 and improving and protecting these jettees ; and that $500,000 is based 
 solely on the fact that we maintain intact 23 feet of water. The ex- 
 
TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 969 
 
 SSSto $5oo5S y to keep up these jettees x d0 not think would 
 
 Q. Per annum, do you mean? 
 nn^nn/f a ° num ' J* mi S n t amount to a hundred thousand : it might 
 i!tt.« *?° h »nclred thousand ; it might possibly amount to $500,000 
 ior trie first two or three years; but it would be manifestly to the in- 
 terests ot the company to make them so substantial that they would 
 .save tins large income as a profit resulting from their enterprise. 
 
 M- Am L to understand you, then, that your proposition first em- 
 braces a payment of $2,000,000 when 20 feet is reached, and three mil- 
 lions more when 28 is reached ? 
 
 + ™ ¥°' Si m Tbe de P ta is incr eased proportionately from 20 feet up 
 A v amount is paid for proportional. 
 
 Q. But the additional amount of three million is up to 28 feet % 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then, having attained $5,000,000, you expect that the Govern- 
 ment shall pay ,$500,000 per annum for ten years to maintain the max- 
 imum depth 1 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So that we are to give $10,000,000 for this process, and it, is 
 guaranteed to us for ten years. What do we do at the end of that 
 time? 
 
 A. Then, having established the fact that this is the proper method 
 of improving the Mississippi River, 1 think the Government ought to 
 be able to take care of it itself. 
 
 Q. At what expense ? 
 
 A. It would be difficult for me to predict with any positive certainty 
 what the expense would be, but it ought to be very little manifestly. 
 
 Q. A hundred thousand dollars a year ? , 
 
 A. I am incline'd to think that it would not cost five cents for fifty years 
 afterward. I doubt whether this company would have to pay $500 for 
 improvements or strengthening those jettees five years after they were 
 executed. , 
 
 Q. What would be the probable expense of maintaining this channel 
 after the contract with you has been entirely completed ? For instance, 
 we see now an expenditure of $10,000,000 aud we have a guarantee in 
 ten years. Now you express your opinion that that will be all that the 
 Government will be required to pay. 
 
 A. I say I do not believe they will have to pay five dollars in the next 
 fifty years. 
 
 Q. Then there is this difference between the engineer's plan of the 
 Fort Saint Philip Canal and yours. You feel quite satisfied that if your 
 theory is carried out at an expense of $10,000,000 we will have 28 feet 
 of water ! 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; with a magnificent width. 
 
 O. Yes and they feel satisfied that with an expenditure of the same 
 amount perhaps, we will have 28 feet of water. Now is not one a plan 
 which has been illustrated and proved by the experience of many other 
 canals, and is not yours a theory which has scarcely been tried with 
 any advantage yet ? ,-,,,., 
 
 A No sir. I do not know of a nveror stream liable to make a great 
 deposit where a canal has been used successfully, but I do know where 
 a similar stream to the Mississippi has been deepened in this manner. 
 
 Q. The Danube? , . . 
 
 A. The Danube. I do know that they are constructing similar par- 
 
970 TRANSPORTATION TO THE SEABOARD. 
 
 allel jettees for the improvement of other outlets to the sea in Holland 
 — the Maas, from Eotterdam to the sea. 
 
 Q. How does the character of the deposits held in suspense by the 
 Mississippi Eiver at its mouth compare with the character of the de- 
 posits held by the Danube ? 
 
 A. I think there is more alluvial in this than there is by the Danube. 
 I have only been on the upper portion of the Danube. I have traveled 
 four hundred miles on it, and that portion very much resembled the 
 Mississippi Eiver, particularly as you get near Vienna. 
 
 Q. What in brief have been the results obtained, the extent of the 
 jettees, expense, and the increased amount of water at the mouth of 
 the Danube i 
 
 A. The water has been increased at the mouth of the Danube from 9 
 feet to 20 feet, and 20 feet has been maintained during the past three 
 years. My information is recent on the subject, within the last three 
 months, and I am sure that up to that time there was no indication, 
 whatever of shoaling up or lessening of the depth which had been main- 
 tained there for three years. I will state further that the Danube has 
 some features .which would make it more unfavorable for this kind of 
 an improvement than the Mississippi. The Gulf deepens at a distance 
 of two miles from the bar to 950 feet. Sir Charles Hartly told me that 
 they went out several miles from the Sulineh mouth of the Danube, with 
 very little perceptible increase of depth* I understood him to say that 
 some two or three miles out there was only a depth of 30 or 35 feet of 
 water. In comparing the expense of maintaining this and the expense 
 of maintaining the canal, it will be found that the canal and its locks 
 will need constant dredging, and the lock-gates and other parts of the 
 canal will need quite as constant repairs as these jettees possibly can. 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 
 Q. What was the cost of the Danube improvement ! 
 
 A. I am not able to state positively, but I think it was a million of 
 dollars — something over a million. The length of the jettees wa*s less 
 than a mile. I believe the longest jettee was 4,600 or 4,800 feet. I will 
 state that the plans of Sir, Charles Hartly, as he assured me himself, 
 were submitted to a board of international engineers, convened in Paris, 
 representing the various governments concerned in that improvement, 
 and they were condemned by that commission of engineers. 
 
 Q. Then your preference for this plan over the canal, is that the canal 
 has not been tried in a parallel instance, as I understand you to say? 
 
 A. In a parallel instance. 
 
 Q. But that the expense of maintaining the canal, you think, will be 
 quite as expensive as this ? 
 
 A. I think it will be more so ; much more so, because the expense of 
 the canal is inevitable and without end. The locks must be dredged. 
 
INDEX. 
 
 A. 
 
 . Abbott, James E„ Continental Railway 119-125 
 
 Alberger, Mr., of Buffalo, remarks on water transportation 201-203 
 
 Anderson, Ren. Samuel, of Portland board of trade 348-355 
 
 Ansled. Prof. David T., Charlestown, West Virginia, proposed water-line from Charlestown to 
 
 Richmond 452^)61 
 
 Adams, CaptM.B., U.S. Engineers, Louisville and Portland Canal 557-559, 565-572 
 
 Atlantic and Great Western Canal 740 
 
 Its effect upon the cotton crop ... 748 
 
 Cost of transportation after completion .- 749 
 
 Manner in which it can be built t 749 
 
 Size, length, and proposed route 752 753 
 
 Full statistics of, cost, &c 756-774 
 
 Atlanta, receipts and shipments of cotton , 792 
 
 Alabama : 
 
 Great mineral resources of 812 
 
 Coal-fieldsof _ _ 821-829 
 
 Immense deposits of iron 830 
 
 Area of coal-fields 835 
 
 Report of State geologist 836 
 
 B. 
 
 Baker, Benjamin P., vice-preaident New York Cheap Transportation Company 97 344-343 
 
 Belgium, regulation of railroads 109-113 
 
 Beef, none packed in England .-. — - 179 
 
 Barges : 
 
 Capacity of, on Canadian canals 181 
 
 Cost and capacity of, on Mississippi River 619 
 
 Cost of coal-barges and size — 511 
 
 Size best adapted to transportation purposes 693 
 
 Buffalo : 
 
 Terminal facilities at 204,208 
 
 A great distributing point 204 
 
 Amountof coal shipped from 4 
 
 Bush, Hon. John T., lake and river transportation 211-220 
 
 Baltimore and Ohio Railroad, low rales of freight and superior terminal facilities 318, 319 
 
 Blanchard, G. R., second vice-president Erie railway 360-369 
 
 Bocock Gen. Thomas S., Virginia, remarks on central water-line, &o 369-376 
 
 Burrell W. P., Richmond, Virginia, trade of Richmond 402,403 
 
 Byrne, B. W., Charlestown, West Virginia, land on New River, West Virginia 493, 494 
 
 Brannln A O chairman sub-committeo board of trade, Louisville, Kentucky, commerce of Lou- 
 
 isville'..;..- 563 - 563 
 
 Bain, George, Saint Louis, Missouri, grain 613 
 
 Bonner B. R. Saint Louis, Missouri, river-lines of transportation 688-693 
 
 Blow Hon. Henry T., Saint Louis, Missouri, transportation 693-705 
 
 Brunswick, Georgia 
 
 Advantages of, as a terminal points 789 
 
 Railroad connections 7 -° 
 
 Brown, Gov. Joseph E., railroads of Georgia 793-803 
 
 Butt, Col. Caleb W., Mobile board of trade 803-807 
 
 Burwell Hon W. M., Mississippi River tonnage, &c 853-858 
 
 Bonded 'warehouses in New Orleans 899, 900, "24-939 
 
 Bussey, Gen. Cyrus, New Orleans cotton exchange 916-922 
 
 ■r ' ard Gen G-. T., Fort Saint Philip Canal as a means of defense 944-947 
 
 Brigs! Charles, president Louisiana Mutual Insurance Company 949-952 
 
 "" ' 971 
 
972 
 
 INDEX. 
 
 c. 
 
 Page. 
 
 Cassatt, A. J., general manager of transportation department of Pennsylvania Central Railroad- 43-67 
 
 Chapin, Mr., president Boston and Albany Railroad Company 6i,65 
 
 Continental railway : 
 
 History of, and estimated capacity 117-125 
 
 Proposed charges for transportation 117 
 
 Comparison with other lines 120 
 
 Height of summit-level 12L 
 
 Amount of money already expended 122 
 
 Cars : 
 
 Deterioration of, when not in use - 170 
 
 Average life of passenger and freight cars : 50 
 
 Churchill, Hon. John C, Oneida Lake route 183-193 
 
 Champlain route, advantages of 187, 188 
 
 Corn : 
 
 Cost of transportation to England 3 3 76 
 
 Increase of consumption of in Europe, uses to which applied 179 
 
 Danger .of heating 205,206 
 
 Kiln-drying, effect of 206 
 
 Production of in southern States 838 
 
 Quantity shipped from New Orleans in 1873 839 
 
 Danger of heating in May and June 858 
 
 Exportation via New Orleans .: J 626 
 
 Clark, Cyrus, Buffalo, terminal facilities of Buffalo.. 203-2C8 
 
 Cook, H. D., chairman board of railroad commissioners of Illinois 242-245, 276, 277 
 
 Culver, Charles E., president Chicago board of trade 294-297 
 
 Cobb, Carlos, New York produce exchange 298-307 
 
 Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad: 
 
 Number and cost of tunnels 386, 387 
 
 Depth of shafts, grades, &c 389 
 
 Advantages of low grades 397 
 
 Connections not yet completed 405 
 
 Length of line, grades, capital stock, &c 433-435 
 
 Coal trade of mines on line of 437 ( 433 
 
 Passenger travel on * 439 
 
 Crenshaw, L. D., Richmond, "Virginia, grain-trade of Richmond 403-406 
 
 Carrington, Col. Charles S., president James River and Kanawha Canal Company 409-433 
 
 Chattanooga, its railroad connections, &c 770 
 
 Clark, Francis B., president Alabama Grand Trunk Railroad 835-^337 
 
 Coyle, William G. , Mississippi River towage 885-893 
 
 Cereals : 
 
 Prices and causes governing price 178 
 
 Reduction in freight would cause increased demand 179 
 
 Quantity grown in United States ' 333 
 
 Production of corn in southern States 838 
 
 Quantity of corn shipped from New Orleans in 1873 839 
 
 Total production of all countries * 841 
 
 Climatic influences 353 
 
 Danger of heating greatest in May and June 858 
 
 Northern grain contains more moisture than southern SGI 
 
 Bad condition of grain received in New York in May and June 894 
 
 Effect of opening Mississippi' River route on prices 395 
 
 Reasons why grain does not seek southern outlets 941 
 
 Competition : 
 
 The only remedy for excessive freights 108 
 
 Not the basis of discriminating rales 137 
 
 Mississippi River and railroads 504 
 
 Of railroads in the South 537 
 
 Steam lines on Missouri River 705 
 
 The Mississippi River a hard competitor gofj 
 
 Canals : 
 
 Erie 4,22,70,107,109-144,187,193-202,213,222 
 
 Water supply of New York canals 191 
 
 Enlargement of, by United States Government ( .... 191 
 
 Tonnage of Erie Canal, mainly from the West K 192 
 
INDEX. 
 
 973 
 
 Canals— Continued. ' 
 
 James River and Kanawha 377-409 
 
 Welland Canal, cost, tonnage, &c 812-321 
 
 Florida Ship-Canal ...."............. 289,954-963 
 
 Chesapeake and Albemarle 442 
 
 Of Ohio, workings ot, buBineSB 537 
 
 Around lower rapids, Mississippi River 712 
 
 Fort Saint Philip 536,944-949 
 
 At Prairie an Chien 631 
 
 At delta of Mississippi 627 
 
 Niagara Ship-Canal 742-745 
 
 Craighill, Col. William P., United States Engineers: 
 
 Central water-line, Kanawha Canal 376-385 
 
 Cost of tunnel ^ _ _ . 379 
 
 Cotton the only reliable export 746 
 
 Statistics of growth and consumption 747 
 
 Crop no longer profitable 748 
 
 " Transportation," not cotton, is "king" _ 750 
 
 Shipments from Atlanta 797 
 
 Cotton and grain 826 
 
 Rates of freight from New Orleans 916 
 
 Terminal charges on 917 
 
 How trade in, is carried on , 918 
 
 Mostly exported to foreign countries 9(9 
 
 Rates of insurance on, &c 920 
 
 Climatic influences on grain at New Orleans -. 634, 691, 700 
 
 Coal: 
 
 Cost of transporting --- - a 398 
 
 Coal-fields on New River, Virginia 437 
 
 Coal-fields of Richmond 446 
 
 Nature of 447 
 
 Canuel seam 44 9 
 
 Length and breadth of coal-basin 452-468 
 
 Average product per acre 466 
 
 Methods of transportation on the Ohio River 512 
 
 Lowest point of production of 515 
 
 Trade in, at Louisville 572,575 
 
 Cost of transporting on Ohio River 497 
 
 Ashland coal 49 3 
 
 Fields of Alabama - 83S 
 
 Chesapeake and Albemarle Canal : 
 
 Length, size, locks 
 
 Vessels, tonnage - ii3 
 
 Charges on 
 
 Towing on Chesapeake Bay 445 
 
 Charlestown, We3t Virginia. 452,468 
 
 CoalRiverof West Virginia 
 
 Coal-fields along .--, 
 
 Commerce of Ohio River - 494 
 
 Of Richmond 
 
 Of Louisville - 
 
 Co Man P G., secretary chamber of commerce, Richmond, commerce of Richmond 44<M42 
 
 C S d D ' Judge J. D., West Virginia legislature, mineral region of West Virginia 484-486 
 
 Cochnower John! Cincinnati, Ohio, transportation on Ohio River 511-51 6 
 
 Cam bell, R- H., Louisville, Kentucky, Ohio and Mississippi Railroad 578-583 
 
 Comparison o T ' n i oia to canal at Prairie du Chien, across lakes and St. Lawrence River, 
 
 From yuincy, xi""" °, _ 
 
 and from Quincy down Mississippi River Ml 
 
 Combination by railroads, effect of - { --•----■ - 689 
 
 By steam-lines 
 
 Day, Horace H. : ^ 70 
 
 Niagara Ship-Canal «* 7U 
 
 New system of lockage -■ — — ; *° 
 
 Dunan. S.H., general auditor Brie Railroad 115-117 
 
974 
 
 INDEX. 
 
 Page 
 
 Distances from New York to different points 12* 
 
 Dieffendorf, R., of Northern Transportation Company 220-22S 
 
 Damrell, Andrew M., United States Engineers, harbor and bay of Mobile 815-819 
 
 Duncan, J. M., president of Louisville board of trade - 590, 591 
 
 Delta of the Mississippi, probable age 907 
 
 E. 
 
 Erie Canal : 
 
 Tonnage of, with double locks 4 
 
 Number of boats upon * 22 
 
 Time required for round-trip •- 22 
 
 Ultimate capacity of 22 
 
 Length of season of navigation, &c , 70 
 
 State engineer's report, 1872 107 
 
 Must be run by steam 11 
 
 Tonnage, 1872 Ill 
 
 Tonnage on, by steam 109-114 
 
 Effect of enlargement 187 
 
 Black River Canal only a feeder 192 
 
 Its effect on freights 193 
 
 Capacity of 193-213 
 
 Minimum rates of freight on 194 
 
 A nation al work 196 
 
 Its enlargement will not benefit New York so much as it will the WeHt 19fi 
 
 The great regulator of transportation -. 196-202 
 
 Steam canal-boats 198 
 
 No "wash" of banks ...l 198 
 
 Enlargement, cost of.. 200 
 
 • Water supply 202 
 
 Effect of enlargement on transportation ^ 213 
 
 Has no agents, rates made in Buffalo 222 
 
 Its great value to New York 739-741 
 
 Earnings and expenses for thirty years .' 740 
 
 Steam towage on.... 751 
 
 Elevators : 
 
 Why none are built at New York _ 74,160 
 
 Railroad companies will not build at New York 98 
 
 Charges fixed by law in Illinois 254 
 
 Charges at New Orleans 289 
 
 Stealings at terminal points ' 538 
 
 Eminent domain, when exercise of right of, permitted 105 
 
 Erie Railway: 
 
 Report of New York legislative committee 100 
 
 Express, fast-freight, and sleeping-car companies 116 
 
 No fictitious stock 116 
 
 Amount of capital stock and length of road 117 
 
 Management of, watered stock, &c 319 ( 320 
 
 Express companies, contracts with railroad companies 367 
 
 Edwards, W. H., president Ohio and Kansas Coal Company 461-468 
 
 Emigration an element of commerce 855 
 
 F. 
 
 Fast-freight lines : 
 
 Why organized 1 } 3 
 
 Manner of operating 3 
 
 Who own them 7 f 20 
 
 Roads traversed by Blue Line 3 
 
 All on, New York Central Railroad, co-operative 20 
 
 Roads furnish cars in proportion to mileage 20 
 
 Mileage-balances, how settled ' 21 
 
 ' Empire line owns its cars ■ 27 
 
 Plan of operating Empire Line 27 
 
 Plan of operating Blue Line 72 
 
 Number of cars in Empire Line , 29 
 
 System an injury to transportation 99 
 
 Arguments in defense of, fallacious 99 
 
INDEX. 975 
 
 Fast-freight lines— Continued. PaS6- 
 
 Same efficiency could be secured without them 69 
 
 Number of lines on Erie Railroad 115 
 
 Number of lines on New York Central Railroad 127 
 
 Who are stockholders in .... 127 
 
 Objects secured by their organization 128 
 
 All "through" business is now done by them 131 
 
 Number of cars in each line 131 
 
 Advantagesof 259 
 
 Different forms of, and their effect 361 
 
 Fruitful cause of peculation 361 
 
 Co-operative system ' 363 
 
 Profits large and divided with railroad officers 364,365 
 
 Green Line, roads over which operated 779 
 
 Other Lines iu southern States 780 
 
 How operated, mileage charged, &c 781 
 
 Excess of freight carried East 782 
 
 Revenue of GreenLine... 787 
 
 Cost per mile 788 
 
 Transportation expedited thereby , 794 
 
 Affairs of GreenLine, how managed 795 
 
 Freights : 
 
 Rates of, how fixed 7,21,33,279 
 
 By rail, governed by water-rates in summer '. 7,275 
 
 Actual cost greater upon some roads than others 8 
 
 Rates from Chicago to New York •. 15 
 
 Cost per ton per mile 10,11,31,49,64,120,256,284,943 
 
 Discriminating rates poor policy - - 40 
 
 Rates to a near point never greater than to a terminal 42, 45, 46 
 
 Discriminating rates, reasons for 45, 174 
 
 . Cost per ton per mile Pennsylvania Central Railroad . - 49 
 
 Cost per ton per mile Boston and Albany Railroad 64 
 
 Discriminating rates 73 
 
 "Rates of, Chicago to Montreal - -- 83 
 
 Rates per ton per mile during summer .- 85 
 
 Rates by water-lines - 86 
 
 Minimum rates - • - 95 
 
 Cost per ton per mile Continental Railway 120 
 
 Rates have no reference to dividends 133 
 
 Causes of discriminating rates 132 
 
 Condition of the commerce of the countryfixesrat.es 133 
 
 Tariffs on New York Central, progressive 134 
 
 Reasons for concessions - 135 
 
 Quantity an important element of rate.. 136 
 
 Increased capital does not increase rates 141 
 
 Cannot be put up beyond what business will bear 141 
 
 Maximum volume at the maximum price 142 
 
 Why advanced in winter - ; 169 
 
 Volume of, in winter as compared with summer 171 
 
 Rates of, less than half of old rates - 171 
 
 Decline of, article from New York Nation ' 
 
 Ocean freights from New York 1*1 
 
 Rates of, Chicago to Montreal 18-j 
 
 Rate per ton per mile on Michigan Central Railroad 2,0 
 
 Rates from East to West in 1873 273,274 
 
 Demand and supply governs rates - •"* 
 
 Rates fixed by railroad commissioners of Illinois would rum railroads -33 
 
 P,o-rata rates between Chicago and New York 278 
 
 Difference between winter and summer rates -.81 
 
 Method of advancing rates 
 
 Lake-linespro-ratesameasrail-lines.....-^. ** 
 
 Rates of from Illinois to New York via New Orleans ^8 
 
 lats of on Erie and New York Central Railroads , 320,321 
 
 Discriminating rates, false statements 321 
 
 Rates not regulated by law in New York 323 
 
976 INDEX. 
 
 Page. 
 Freights— Continued. 
 
 Rates, how pro-rated between water and rail ••-• 3G6 
 
 From Chicago to Buffalo, minimum - 198,204,209 
 
 From Buffalo to New York, limit 398 
 
 Rates from Chicago to New York 210 
 
 Rates from Montreal to Ogdensburgh t 221 
 
 Rates not fixed by agents of railroad lines 221 
 
 Rates all rail to Boston , 223 
 
 Demand and supply govern rates .- F 224 
 
 Rates change from day to day 222 
 
 On lakes regulated by rail-rates partly 226 
 
 Rates higher when crops are large 226 
 
 Agent of boats fixes through rates : 227 
 
 Rate from Chicago to Boston and pro-rating 228 
 
 Rates on roads leading from Chicago 235 
 
 No discriminating rates in Illinois 251 
 
 Rates fixed by commissioners in Illinoia 242-255 
 
 Average per ton per mile - 265 
 
 Rates same in winter as in summer 266 
 
 Rates on Ohio River 496 
 
 On wheat to Richmond 403 
 
 Rates on Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad 439, 440 
 
 Rates of, on railroad during low water 525 
 
 Relative rates by water and rail ' ,. 527 
 
 Rates on railroads in Ohio 538 
 
 Rates on Ohio and Mississippi Railroad 578 
 
 Rates on Northern Line Packet Company 604 
 
 Rates on Northern Line Packet Company's through freight 612 
 
 From Kansas City to New York 643 
 
 Rates on river would be reduced 50 per cent, by improvement of Mississippi River 709 
 
 Rates of, on Western and Atlantic Railroad 717 
 
 Rates on Chesapeake and Albemarle Canal 443 
 
 Rates of Ohio and Kanawha Coal Company 462 
 
 Rates of, from Pittsburgh to New Orleans 523 
 
 Classification of rates, Ohio and Mississippi Railroad 581 
 
 Rates of, Louisville and New Orleans 588 
 
 Rates of Northern Line Packet Company 604 
 
 Rates of, over Green Line 782 
 
 Summer rates always less 782 
 
 Time required from Saint Louis to Atlanta 783 
 
 Rates governed by competition 785 
 
 Break of gauge, effect on rates 785 
 
 Rates higher on southern roads , 795 
 
 Why local rates are higher than through 796 
 
 Rate charged on coal, Western Atlantic Railroad 800,802 
 
 Rates on Mobile and Ohio Railroad 822 
 
 Various rates from the West to Liverpool 84 1 
 
 Rates from New Orleans to Liverpool 88L 
 
 Rates would be much lower from New Orleans if there was sufficient depth of water 883 
 
 Rates from Cairo to Liverpool ." 896 
 
 Rates from Cairo to New Orleans 939 
 
 Freight-trains : 
 
 Rate of speed at which they should run and distance apart 13,24,41,49,261,270 
 
 Number of cars to each train 15 
 
 Time required at terminal points , 15 17 
 
 Time required for inspection of wheels 19 
 
 Convoys of trains _ 04 
 
 Average time from Chicago to New York.... 13 49 
 
 Average rate of speed 369 
 
 Freight railroad : 
 
 Slight advantage over present system 19 
 
 Exclusively freight road impracticable 41 
 
 Economy of 45 
 
 Effect on rates of freight 270 
 
 Advantages of 286 
 
INDEX. 977 
 
 * reight railroad— Continued. 
 
 Estimates of cost for Government road 683 
 
 Fuel, wood and coal compared 51 
 
 Costof, to Illinois Central Railroad 241 
 
 Faulkner, Mr. H.D., tonnage on Erie Canal '. ". ..... 109,114 
 
 Food, change in articles of, in England 179 
 
 Flour, methods of manufacture in England 180 
 
 Fox River improvement : {t 
 
 History of 228,233 
 
 Value of work done .' 229 
 
 Value of lands owned by company.. 229 
 
 Amount paid original company 229 
 
 Length of canal, and depth _ 231 
 
 Estimates for completed work 232 
 
 Amount of appropriations 233,586 
 
 Foote, Emerson, director of New York Steam Cable Towing Company 334, 344 
 
 Fort Saint Philip Canal 536,602,839 
 
 Estimated cost, length, &c 850 
 
 Bill for construction of 852 
 
 Ships could be loaded at 876 
 
 Competition between it and New Orleans .- 876 
 
 History of, and reports thereon 900 
 
 Plan and dimensions 901,902 
 
 Annual expense of repairs 904 
 
 Its value as a means of defense 905 
 
 Character of soil 906 
 
 Would break up monopoly of towage 909 
 
 Proposed extension of railroad system to connect with canal 942 
 
 Its importance in a military point of view 944 
 
 Statement- of General Beauregard 944,949 
 
 No engineering difficulties intheway 944 
 
 Kind of soil to be excavated *. . 945 
 
 Plan of constructing foundations - 947 
 
 With canal, Mississippi River impregnable 948 
 
 Follett, Capt. Hiram, pilot on the Mississippi River 906,916 
 
 Floyd, George R., Charlestown, West Virginia, valley of Coal River 486, 488 
 
 Flagg, W. C, president Illinois State Farmers' Association 646,673 
 
 Frobel, Col. B. W., Atlanta, Georgia, report chamber of commerce, Atlanta 715,720 
 
 Frost, Mr. E. D., general manager New Orleans, Jackson, and Great Northern Railroad, Missis- 
 sippi Central, &c - 939,944 
 
 Florida ship-canal 289,954-963 
 
 Poverty of the South and need of aid .* 955 
 
 Route recommended 956 
 
 Report of survey 956 
 
 Saving in time and insurance 957 
 
 Commercial advantages of 958 
 
 Losses to commerce by Florida Straits 959 
 
 Various routes r 
 
 Claims of Florida 
 
 Area soil, climate, population, products, and general advantages 961, 962 
 
 Demands of commerce 
 
 Benefits to the Government - _ 963 
 
 Practicability and small expense of 774-779 
 
 Effect upon commerce ■ ?'jj 
 
 Advantages over other routes : 
 
 Canals once cut are permanent, and have a tendency to enlarge, along Gulf 779 
 
 Cost and advantages of - 804-807 
 
 Loss of property in passing Florida Reefs 8o7, 882 
 
 Distance saved 
 
 G. 
 
 Grain : _ . 
 
 Advantages of moving by rail 64 
 
 Inspection of 
 
 62 T S 
 
978 
 
 INDEX. 
 
 Page. 
 Grain— Continue d . 
 
 Railroad companies will not guarantee quantities 78 
 
 Kail and water transportation compared 83 
 
 Cost of drying 84,85 
 
 Amount consumed in State of New York 87 
 
 Amount received and Bhipped from Chicago in 1872 , 276 
 
 No danger of heating by New Orleans route , 288 
 
 Manner of doil$ produce business 294 
 
 Speculation increases prices , 295 
 
 Commissions and storage charges 296 
 
 Relative value of, delivered by water 307 
 
 Relative value of, at Saint Louis and Chicago 611 
 
 Center of grain-growing region of the Northwest 627, 639 
 
 Proportion of grain production to eastern markets 632 
 
 Influences of climate on, at New Orleans 634,691,700 
 
 Shipment to Europe from New Orleans 626 
 
 Shipment of, in bulk and in sacks 626 
 
 * See " cereals." 
 
 Green Bay Harbor, depth of water, &c ' 233 
 
 Gray, C. M., assistant general freight-agent Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Railroad 278-282 
 
 Georgia Canal route : 
 
 Value of Tennessee River and tributaries 755 
 
 Cost of canal, time required, &c 755 
 
 Tonnage capacity 756 
 
 Probable increase of cotton product, &c „ - 736 
 
 Goshorn, W. F., president Kanawha River board improvement of Kanawha River 488, 489 
 
 Gould, E. W., president Missouri River Packet Company, transportation on Missouri River 705-710 
 
 Georgia, iron interests of.., 719 
 
 Grand Trunk Railroad of Alabama, advantages of 839,836 
 
 H. 
 
 "Hayes, J. D., general manager Blue Line Fast-Freight 1-43 
 
 Hatch, Israel P., enlargement of Erie Canal ., 70 
 
 Hazard, George S., of Buffalo, remarks on Erie Canal /. 193-197 
 
 Hotchkiss, Win,, remarks on Niagara ship-canal 210,211 
 
 Houston, Col. D. C, United States engineer, remarks on Fox River improvement 228-233 
 
 Hickok, C R., of New York Produce Exchange 302-309 
 
 Hussey, Mr., advantages of Portland, Maine 355-358 
 
 Haupt, Gen. Herman, engineer of Hoosac Tunnel 392 
 
 Hoosac Tunnel, history, cost, length, depth, &c 393, 394 
 
 Harris, J.M., Richmond, Virginia, James River and Kanawha Canal 406-408 
 
 Hull, L, R., Cincinnati, Ohio, ores on Ohio and Kanawha Rivers 516-523 
 
 Hooker, James J., Cincinnati, Ohio, improvement of Erie Canal and mouth of Mississippi River 539, 540 
 
 Hyatt, Isaac L., Louisville, Kentucky, coal-trade of LouisvHle 572-576 
 
 HaarBtick, H. C-, vice-president and general superintendent of Mississippi Valley Transportation 
 
 Company 618-626 
 
 HarriP, Dr. J. J., mayor of the city of Brunswick, Georgia 789, 790 
 
 Brunswick the best point for the eastern terminus of the Atlantic and Great Western Canal 780-790 
 
 Hamilton, Thomas A., advantages of Mobile Bay 811-815 
 
 Hamilton, Hon. Peter, Warrior and Coosa Rivers 826-829 
 
 Howell, C, W., captain United States Engineers, improvement of mouths of Mississippi River.. 850, 953-963 
 
 Higbee, Mr. Lewis J., climatic influence on grain shipments 858-878 
 
 Herwig, P. T., deputy collector New Orleans, bonded warehouses, &c 930-939 
 
 I. 
 
 Illinois and Michigan Canal 
 
 History of and cost 234 
 
 Rates of toll and receipts 235 
 
 Lands donated by United States 236 
 
 Size of locks, length, and cost 237 
 
 Plans for improvement of Illinois River. , 238, 039 
 
 No through-connections .' 240 
 
 Scarcity of boats on „ 241 
 
 Keeps railroad rates down '. 241 
 
 Cut-off from Hennepin to Rock Island 241 
 
INDEX. 979 
 
 Illinois Central Railroad: 
 
 Maximum grades 285 
 
 Price of fuel 241 
 
 Capital stock and bonded debt 293 
 
 Number of cars 093 
 
 Connections ami rates to New Orleans 897-900 
 
 Iron : 
 
 Cost of manufacture of pig-iron 402 
 
 Manufacture of, at Joliet, Illinois 278 
 
 Deposits of, in Georgia 719 
 
 Deposits of, in Alabama 830 
 
 Deposits of, online of James River and Kanawha Canal 489 
 
 Illinois State Farmers' Association : 
 
 Remarks of W. C. Flagg, president, history and object of organization 046-673 
 
 Imboden, Gen. J. S., Richmond, Va., coal and iron of Virginia 446-45-2 
 
 Importations : 
 
 From Richmond prior to war '. 405 
 
 At Cincinnati 495 
 
 Improvements : 
 
 Of Kanawha River 488 
 
 Tolls on Kanawha River for expenses of J : 489 
 
 Survey of Ohio and Kanawha Rivers ._ 528 
 
 Character and cost of, on Kanawha and Ohio Rivers.: 529 
 
 Of Brie Canal and mouth of Mississippi River 539 
 
 Effect of, on Cincinnati trade 539 
 
 Of Fox River 936 
 
 In vessels on Missouri River -. 709 
 
 Of Mississippi River, cost of 711 
 
 Of Missouri River 714 
 
 Insurance : 
 
 Rates of, on Ohio River .. 577 
 
 Rates from Louisville to New Orleans 590 
 
 J. 
 
 Jones, George O., remarks on transportation 104-109,309,323 
 
 Joliet, Illinois, manufactures of iron and zinc S78 
 
 Jettee system : 
 
 Objections to.. 
 
 Proposition of James B. Bades, civil engineer, of Saint Louis 963-970 
 
 James River and Kanawha Canal : 
 
 Supply of water for summit-level - 407 
 
 Tunnel, locks - 4 07 
 
 "Water, dams, vessels. 
 
 904, 905 
 
 408 
 
 Estimated cost of ■ 
 
 Development of country by 
 
 Length, &c * " 
 
 Timber along line of - - 
 
 Navigation of New River and tolls 
 
 Salt-mines v 
 
 Markets by ' 
 
 Iron-ore on line of - • 
 
 As a central water-line 
 
 Rights of stockholders 4 °9 
 
 Government interests 410 
 
 Debt, management 
 
 Revenues 
 
 Length, channel of navigation 
 
 Lockage - 
 
 Expenses and repairs 
 
 Benefit to country - 
 
 Navigable waters, with which connect 
 
 Products of region drained 
 
 population of region dravned 
 
 Effect of, on trade of Cincinnati 5„9 
 
 Advantages of, over all others -- 586, 5i, 
 
 450 
 45-2 
 
 47U 
 471 
 
 472 
 472 
 4*9 
 
 508 
 
 417 
 417 
 118 
 421 
 424 
 429 
 429 
 430 
 
980 
 
 INDEX. 
 
 K. 
 
 Kibbee, Gen. Wm. C, Continental Railway 117-119 
 
 Kanawha River : / 
 
 Tolls on 489 
 
 Length of navigation , 489 
 
 Boats on 489 
 
 I*. 
 
 Lewis, S. G, comptroller Pennsylvania Central Railroad Company. Freight -charges, cost of 
 
 transportation, &c 43-67 
 
 Locomotives : 
 
 Average life of 50 
 
 Power of, on different grades 122 
 
 Live stock. Extent of trade and tonnage of 86 
 
 Lake transportation : 
 
 Boats limited in size by Saint Clair Flats 195 
 
 Causes for sudden changes in rates 201-207 
 
 No fixed rates 201 
 
 Profits of one round trip from Chicago to Buffalo 207-214 
 
 Vessels on lakes owned by combinations y. 214 
 
 Enlargement of canal would destroy combinations 216 
 
 Cost of propellers 217, 228 
 
 Time of propellers, Chicago to Ogdensburgh , 228 
 
 Number of boats owned by Northern Transportation Company 225 
 
 Tonnage carried 225 
 
 Boats do not now run " wild " „• 222 
 
 Lewis, Mr., senator, State of New York. Buffalo the outlet of the lakes 208-210 
 
 Lake Shore Railroad. History of, &c 317,318 
 
 Louisville and Portland Canal : 
 
 Amount of money emended by Government , 557 
 
 Dimensions of - 558 
 
 Size of locks 556 
 
 Difficulty of navigation 559 
 
 Act of Congress making appropriation for 5C5 
 
 Cost of 570 
 
 Act of Kentucky legislature relative to 57L 
 
 Act of Congress, additional appropriation for 572 
 
 Legal status of 540 
 
 Report by canal company 1 541 
 
 Tolls on 545 
 
 Government as stockholders in 54 1 
 
 Relative rights of National and State Governments 547 
 
 Debt of.....* 547 
 
 Conditon of .' : 550 
 
 Bonds of 551 
 
 Directors and rates of toll 552 
 
 Annual income — 557 
 
 Government interest in 557 
 
 Locks and depth of water 559 
 
 Barges, tolls 56q 
 
 Season of navigation through locks, losses 561 
 
 Time in passing locks, charges 562 
 
 Act of Congress in relation to 565-572 
 
 Opinion of Judge Miller m relation to „ 566 
 
 Cost of canal and dam 570 
 
 Act of Kentucky legislature 57 1 
 
 Lockhart, Enoch, Louisville and Portland Canal 559-562 
 
 Louisville : 
 
 Commerce of 563 
 
 Importations and exportatlons, 1 869 and 1870 553 
 
 Manufactures, banking capital, and tobacco trade 554 
 
 Cement, wheat, and cotton trade * 565 v 
 
 Coal trade, supply, and values 570 
 
 Sales of tobacco 58G 
 
INDEX. 981 
 
 Locks: Pa E 6 ' 
 
 On Kanawha River 533 
 
 Coat of, on Kanawha River ""I!!!".. ".""".!""."!"!!!.""".".!!!!!"I"!!!!.' 535 
 
 On Louisville and Portland Canal.. ..!!^." .'!!.'.".".'.."!.".".. '.'."."..'.'.'.'.'.'.'.".'.'.".".".".'.".'.'.'.'.".'.".' 559-562 
 
 Levi, B. C., Louisville, Ky 5S8-590 
 
 Lines of transportation : 
 
 Prom Keokuk to Chicago 610 
 
 From Saint Louis to South 618 
 
 Mississippi River route : 
 
 Can it afford relief J 267,275 
 
 Necessity for improvement of 289-293-703 
 
 Advantages of 287 
 
 Depth of water necessary 289 
 
 Interruptions by ice 294 
 
 Comparison with James River and Kanawha route 587 
 
 Amount of money already expended on 704 
 
 "Volume of water diminishing 703 
 
 Head of deep navigation :... 946 
 
 Rates of insurance on 950 
 
 Loss of trade on A 743- 
 
 Cost of canal into Lake Pontchartrain 775 
 
 Grand Pass, closed by General Jackson 813 
 
 Report of Colonel Stewart 813 
 
 Bayou Manchac, cost of opening , 814 
 
 A hard competitor 826 
 
 Report of chamber of commerce of New OrleanB 837 
 
 Alleged climatic disadvantages 837 
 
 Fort Saint Philip Canal 839,850 
 
 Obstructions at mouth of 840 
 
 Tonnage of New Orleans 840 
 
 CoBts and charges ' 841 
 
 Depth of channel at mouth 843 
 
 Improvement of mouth of river 850 
 
 Bill for construction of Port Saint Philip Canal 852 
 
 Tonnage of and reciprocal freights .853 
 
 Advantages of, as an emigrant route 855 
 
 Loss of property in passing Florida Eeefs - 857 
 
 Advantages to commerce of a deeper channel at bar 871,883 
 
 Advantage of placing the bar under control of Secretary of War 875, 876 
 
 Ships are run on the bar purposely 
 
 Impoadbleto " coal" steamers outside of bar 885 
 
 Bar five miles from mouth of River - 886 
 
 Advantage of this route for grain 894,897 
 
 Impeded by ice and low water "-■ 94 ° 
 
 Want of tonnage at New,Orleans 941 
 
 No port in the world equal to Mississippi River 944 
 
 Depth of water at mouth.. 
 
 . e , & c 869-878,922 
 
 MicWgan'omtral Railroad, length of line and termini 268 
 
 Mobile : g p 7 
 
 Bay and harbor - ■■ 
 
 Appropriations for improvement of...-. «* 
 
 Progress of work, estimates, &c 809 
 
 Depth of water in harbor «"-t«7 
 
 Soundings in bay ■ s IR _a m 
 
 Dog River bar, Spanish River, &c 816-819 
 
 Rail connections ---• 
 
 The great coal depot of the Gulf «•« 
 
 Terminal facilities of 832 
 
 7 a -Mai Walter United States Engineer, Atlantic and Great Western Canal 756-774 
 
 ^m J Navigation on the Ocmulgee River 773,774 
 
 McBnde, a. • president Mobile and Ohio Railroad 819-826 ■ 
 
 Murdock, Hon. * „J__ _ A ^„_„„,, „.„,, 489-493. 
 
 Maury, M. P. James Kiver and Kanawha Canal. 
 
982 
 
 INDEX. 
 
 Pago. 
 
 Mines and mining : 
 
 Coal and iron on Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad 440 
 
 Of Virginia , -. 442 
 
 Granite quarry 447 
 
 Mining of iron-ores 4;55 
 
 Mining by Ohio and Kanawha Coal Company 461 
 
 Mineral wealth of West Virginia 469 
 
 Minglin g of ores i 491 
 
 Ores on Ohio and Kanawha Rivers ^ 516 
 
 Iron-mines in Ohio 519 
 
 Forests along 491 
 
 McCuen, John L , obstructions to navigation in Mississippi River 710-713 
 
 Manufactures at Cincinnati -, 496 
 
 At Joliet, Illinois 278 
 
 Merrill, W. E., United States Engineers*, improvement of Ohio and Kanawha Rivera 528-537 
 
 Mason, J. N-, general freight-agent at Keokuk of Northern Line Packet Company 602-615 
 
 Memphis and Saint Louis Packet Company : 
 
 Tonnage of vessels 617 
 
 Management of 618 
 
 Season of navigation * 618 
 
 Mississippi Valley Transportation Company : 
 
 Nature of * 61S 
 
 Barges, tonnage, towage, and time of trip 619 
 
 Wharfage, competition with railroad 620 
 
 Cost of loading 621 
 
 Facilities for loading and unloading 622 
 
 Missouri River Packet Company : 
 
 Effect of railroad on business of 706 
 
 Markets for products 710 
 
 Missouri River, changes in 706 
 
 Markets for Western produce 710 
 
 X. 
 
 Niagara Ship-Canal 5,67-70 
 
 Feasibility of - 211,212 
 
 Advantages of, over Welland Canal 218 
 
 Length of season \ 267 
 
 New York Central and Hudson River Railroad : 
 
 Tonnage capacity of 11 
 
 Cost of operating ]1 
 
 Ultimate capacity of 19 
 
 History and general management 125-175 
 
 Could not be replaced for a sum equal to its capital stock 146 
 
 Special Pullman-car trains r 343 
 
 Freight -charges lower than on Erie Railroad 150 
 
 Table showing earnings for ten years 151 
 
 New double-track, steel rails, progress of work on 161 
 
 Legislation refused to authorize it 163 
 
 Capacity of four-track railway 165 
 
 Capital stock ] 67 
 
 Capacity soon to be in excess of Erie Canal 197 
 
 History of, and original cost 309-315 
 
 Dividends paid 316 
 
 Statement showing stock, debt, cost of road, &c 323 
 
 Articles of consolidation 327 
 
 New York : 
 
 Advantages of, as a Shipping point 181 
 
 Great lack of facilities for handling grain 3,77,280,308 
 
 Northern Transportation Company : 
 
 Terminal points of 220 
 
 No fixed rates 223 
 
 Number of propellers owned. by 225 
 
 Newell, John, president Illinois Central Railroad Company 282-294 
 
 Navigation : 
 
 Length of season, James River and Kanawha Canal 424 
 
 Use of ice-boats in 426 
 
INDEX. 
 
 Navigation— Continued. Page. 
 
 Season of, for shipping coal on Ohio and Kanawha Rivera 4B7 
 
 Necessity of improvement of the Ohio and Kanawha Rivera Z 
 
 Harbor at Huntington m 
 
 Of New River, tolls ..........* < " 37 
 
 Length of , on Kanawha River . 
 
 Obstruction to, on Ohio River by'ice and low water f! 
 
 Plans to perfect, on Ohio and Kanawha Rivers "" 529 
 
 Difficulty of, on Louisville and Portland Canal 559 
 
 Season of, through locks at Louisvi'lle „ . 
 
 Obstruction to, at Palls of Ohio, Louisville....' - 57S 
 
 Seasonof, over Palls of Ohio, Louisville 1 577 
 
 Obstructions to, on Mississippi from Saint Louis to New" Orleans" by Yow waYer'and bars!! 589, 615 
 
 Obstruction to, on Mississippi, from Saint Louis to Saint Paul : 602 
 
 Seasonof, from Saint Louis to Saint Paul 6 0" 
 
 Improvement of river for, from Saint Louis to Saint Paul !!!!!!.!!!!!!!.!.!!!!!!!!! 603 
 
 Seasonof, Mississippi Valley Transportation Company : !.!!! 619 
 
 Obstructions to barge system of 62I 
 
 CoBt of, from Quincy, Illinois 631 
 
 Of Mississippi River, difficulty of, by rapids 711 
 
 Of Mississippi River, obstruction at Rock Island 688 
 
 Of Mississippi River, obstructions by ice and low water 694 
 
 Ofopenocean 695 
 
 Obstruction by gradual filling up yOO 
 
 New River : 
 
 Great value of timber land on.- 493 
 
 Deposits of iron and coal on 494 
 
 Northern Line Packet Company : 
 
 Competition with railroads 603 
 
 Rates of freight 604 
 
 Freights on 605 
 
 Distribution of grain, transportation 607 
 
 Local rates 607 
 
 Through rates 612 
 
 Northwest : , 
 
 Resourcesof : 639 
 
 Natural outlets 640 
 
 Northwestern farmers' convention ■. 653-688 
 
 Organization 653 
 
 Resolutions on regulation of railroads 656 
 
 Water-lines and double-track railroad demanded 657 
 
 Addressof Hon. W. C. Flagg J 659-66J 
 
 Obligations of railroads as common carriers 659 
 
 Dartmouth College case not analogous , 660 
 
 Subsidized railroads in England and Prance 660 
 
 Attempts to fix maximum rates by law 661 
 
 Competition cannot be permanently maintained 662 
 
 Opinions of Amasa Walker and Charles Francis Adams 664 
 
 Reasonable rates 666 
 
 Resolutions 667 
 
 Illinois railroad law - - 671 
 
 Huron and- Erie ship-canal 672 
 
 . Co-operative buying and selling 671 
 
 Niagara Ship-Canal : 
 
 Its value to commerce 742 
 
 Will release lake-shipping during winter 742 
 
 New Orleans : 
 
 Report of chamber of commerce • 837 
 
 Alleged climatic disadvantages 837 
 
 Tonnage, costs and charges 840,841 
 
 Accounts of sales of cargo of corn 842,851 
 
 Grain statistics - ; 842,843 
 
 Commercial statistics 84 ^ 
 
 Scant railroad facilities 843 
 
 Advantages over New York 846 
 
 Tobacco trade ■ -•" 846 
 
984 
 
 INDEX. 
 
 Page. 
 New Orleans — Continued. 
 
 Receipts and exports of flour 847 
 
 Tonnage to and from 848, 849 
 
 Grain in no more danger from heating than that stored in Milwaukee 700-858-860 
 
 Manner of selling grain, &c 859 
 
 Shipments of grain to Europe and rosult 869 
 
 Cost of pilotage, wharfage- dues, &e 872 
 
 Port-charges less than at New York 875 ' 
 
 An exceptional instead of a universal port 877 
 
 Would become a great grain center if channel were deepened 894 
 
 Method of towing ships from the sea, cost, &c 886-892 
 
 Reduction of cost of towage by deepening channel 887 
 
 Would be a steady market every month , 894 
 
 Freights from, greatly reduced 896 
 
 Trade of, before the war second only to New York , 897 
 
 Advantages to the producer 897 
 
 Detention of vessels on bar 918 
 
 Cotton trade, how carried on 918 
 
 Export of cotton to foreign countries 919 
 
 Bonded warehouses 899, 900, 922, 924-939 
 
 O. 
 
 Oswego, New York, capacity of mills and elevators 192 
 
 Ohio and Kanawha Coal Company : 
 
 Charges, mining, shipments 461 
 
 Prices of coal 462 
 
 Vessels, shoals 464 
 
 Harbor at Huntington 467 
 
 Season of navigation 467 
 
 Ohio River : 
 
 • Commerce of between Pittsburgh and Cairo 494 
 
 Estimated cost of improvement of Ohio and Kanawha Rivers 428, 429 
 
 Plans for improvement of 528-534 
 
 Ores : 
 
 Along Ohio and Kanawha Rivers 518 
 
 Pig-iron 517 
 
 Transportation of by water and rail , 518 
 
 Transportation of from Iron Mountain 520 
 
 Ohio and Mississippi Railroad 578 
 
 Termini, freights 578 
 
 Rates on 58i 
 
 Ocmulgee River, navigation of and depth of water 774 
 
 Ocean tonnage : 
 
 State Line Steamship Company 869 
 
 Number of ships and capacity 869 
 
 Where owned 869 
 
 Amount of corn shipped 869 
 
 Mississippi and Dominion Steamship Company 878, 899 
 
 Draught'of steamers 878 
 
 Would be trebled if there was deep water at New Orleans v 878 
 
 Difficulties of crossing bar at New Orleans 886 
 
 Steamships taking the place of sailing vessels ,\ 895 
 
 Want of at New Orleans 941 
 
 RateB of insurance from New Orleans to Liverpool 950 
 
 Cargo and ship not insured in same company 952 
 
 Oglesby, Hon. J. H 883-897 
 
 Advantages of Mississippi River route 899 
 
 P. 
 
 Potts, Joseph D., president of the Empire Transportation Company 26-43 
 
 Pennsylvania Central Railroad Company : 
 
 Difference between the Pennsylvania Railroad Company and the Pennsylvania Central 
 
 Railroad Company .*. 43 
 
 Other lines leased 43 
 
 Interested in steamship-line 44 
 
 Average tonnage 33 
 
INDEX. 
 
 985 
 
 Pennsylvania Central Railroad Company— Continued. Page. 
 
 Local tonnage exceeds through tonnage 35 
 
 Maximum capacity not reached 36 
 
 Coat of ""' 
 
 No watered stock ., 
 
 Treasurer's account „ 56 
 
 Earnings in detail 60-63 
 
 Prosser, E. A., Buffalo, remarks on water and rail transportation 197-201 
 
 Population of the United States.facts and estimates , 334 
 
 Portland, Maine : 
 
 Advantages of as a terminal point 349 
 
 Harbor and elevators 355 
 
 Rail connections 352 
 
 No pilots needed to Portland Harbor 356 
 
 Passenger-coaches, average life of 50 
 
 Passenger fares, average rate in twelve countries of Europe 669 
 
 Passenger trains : 
 
 Cost of running per mile 51 
 
 Expenses, compared with freight -trains 51 
 
 Propelle-rs, average coBt, &c ', 228 
 
 PoBtal-cars, compensation for inadequate 369 
 
 Pro-rating : 
 
 Railroads obliged to pro-rate 7 
 
 Pennsylvania Railroad and Liverpool SteamBhip Line 44 
 
 New York Central pro-rates 130 
 
 Chicago and New York 279 
 
 Lake lines pro-rate 226, 282 
 
 Water and rail, how pro-rated 366, 401 
 
 Consolidation first led to pro-rating 157 
 
 Ohio and Missi sippi Railroad, terms of 580 
 
 Northern Line Packet Company 603 
 
 Great Jackson route to New York via Cincinnati 940 
 
 Piloting at Louisville 576 
 
 Parks, Marshall, president Chesapeake and Albemarle Canal 442-446 
 
 Petroleum in "West "Virginia 486 
 
 Porter, J. J., ex-president board of trade of Louisville.. 583-588 
 
 Pamphlet-reply to inquiry of committee by Saint Louis committee 591 
 
 Patrons of husbandry 646, 647 
 
 Quinn, Lieut. James B. , U. S. Engineers, Fort Saint Phillip Canal 900-906 
 
 It. 
 
 Railroads : 
 
 Number of miles in the United States 4 
 
 Tonnage of •- 4 
 
 , Net average earnings of -' - 4 
 
 Increased expenses in winter " 
 
 Are operated at a loss during part of summer months 11 
 
 Percentage of expenses to gross receipts H 
 
 Capacity of all roads moving freight eastward 
 
 Time required for repairs *• 
 
 Capacity of double-track 
 
 Growth of r ^ 
 
 Laws in regard to, mostly unconstitutional JUD 
 
 Belgian railroads 125-175 
 
 General management of, &c 
 
 Should be managed same aB private business ^si 
 
 Watered lines charge lowest rates 
 
 Extinction of capital in 
 
 Four-track road, capacity of 
 
 Engliah railroads -„ 
 
 Reason for raising rates in winter 
 
 System of in Russia " _,_ 
 
 Of Illinois, charges fixed by commissioners 
 
 Schedules to be published " * * 
 
986 
 
 INDEX. 
 
 Page. 
 Railroads — Continued. 
 
 Coat of, number of miles in operation, &c 243-255 
 
 No discriminating rates allowed 251 
 
 Have onnformed to the laws in Illinois 256 
 
 Only four or live in Illinois pay any dividends 262 
 
 Have been built in advance of the requirements of population 262 
 
 Capital stock 264 
 
 No watered stock 265 
 
 Expense of operating in winter 266 
 
 Causes of complaint against , 283 
 
 Average earnings of, in Illinois, Iowa, Wisconsin, and Minnesota 284 
 
 Why capitalists invest money in 291 
 
 European capital only invested 292 
 
 Power of, over New York legislature 323 
 
 No vested rights in New York 332 
 
 Natural highway for, through New York '. 332 
 
 Southern railroads, effect of consolidation 397 
 
 Southern railroads do not pay dividends 400 
 
 Southern railroads, rates of freight and passenger fares 400 
 
 Southern railroads, less breakage on 439 
 
 In sparsely-settled countries - 675 
 
 Abrogation of charters allowing more than three cents per mile for passenger-travel 675 
 
 Building of, by government, cost, freight 683 
 
 Management of 684 
 
 Transportation by 685 
 
 Cost of transportation as compared with water 686 
 
 Of Georgia, how organized 793 
 
 Of Georgia do not pay any dividends 797 
 
 Western Atlantic, tariff of freights 798 
 
 Western Atlantic, pay of employes 800 
 
 Mobile and Ohio Railroad, passenger tariff 822 
 
 Usual gauge of southern railroads 825 
 
 Construction of, in the southern States 942 
 
 Richmond, Virginia : 
 
 Capacity of flour-mills at 403 
 
 Annual product of wheat * 403 
 
 Shipments of wheat from 404 
 
 Importations prior to war j 405 
 
 Size of vessels coming to 405 
 
 Improvements of James River at 405 
 
 Shipments in boDd from 403 
 
 Tobacco tax 402 
 
 Commerce of 440 
 
 Exportation 44 i 
 
 Resolutions of legislature of West Virginia 486 
 
 Of board of trade of Louisville 590 
 
 Of Illinois State Farmers' Association „ 547 
 
 Of Northwestern Farmers' Convention 647 
 
 Report by Louisville and Portland Canal Company 541 
 
 Board of trade of Kansas City 639 
 
 Of meeting of Northwestern Farmers' Convention 653 
 
 , River lines, management of ggg 
 
 Russia : 
 
 Railroad system of ., 177 
 
 Cost of transportation of wheat !78 
 
 Competes with United States .' 33 
 
 Corn cannot be laid down in Liverpool for 83 cents per bushel ( 896 
 
 Rimmer, Thomas, of Montreal, advantages of Saint Lawrence River route 176-183 
 
 Raiford, Col. P. H., Florida Ship-Canal 774-779 
 
 Robson, R. C. , Green Line Transportation Company 7g7_ 738 
 
 Ruggles, Samuel B., of New York, cheap transportation .' 328-334 
 
 S. 
 
 Speed of trains, average rate from Chicago to New York ■. 13 
 
 ■Sleeping-cavs, manner of operating 5g j 261 
 
INDEX. 
 
 987 
 
 Page. 
 
 Steam Cable Towing Company 109-114 
 
 torage : 
 
 Charges for hi Canada 2g2 
 
 Of grain at New Orleans J 691 
 
 Saint Lawrence River route, advantages of 186 
 
 Navigation impeded by fogs .: 190 
 
 Ship canal navigation : 
 
 Cost of, , ig-j 
 
 Difficulties of r 203 
 
 Sargent, Homer E., general superintendent Michigan Central Railroad 208-275 
 
 Sleeping-car companies : 
 
 Questionable advantage of 368 
 
 Charges of, excessive 368 
 
 Own all patents for sleepers i j 363 
 
 Salt: 
 
 Product of, along New River 472 
 
 Markets for, freights 472 
 
 Transportation of, by river and rail 474 
 
 On Elk River 485-489 
 
 Depth of wells 474 
 
 Summers, Hon. A. E., State senator West Virginia, resources and manufactures of West Virginia 476-484 
 
 Smith, Benj. H., Charlestown, West Virginia, necessity of improved navigation 468-476 
 
 Smith, Richard, Cincinnati, Ohio, commerce of the Ohio River 494-511 
 
 Sherlock, Thomas, Cincinnati, cost of transportation from Pittsburgh to New Orleans 523-527 
 
 Spoed, Hon. James, Louisville, Ky., legal status of Louisville and Portland Canal Company . . . 540-550 
 
 Speed, Joshua F., Louisville, Ky. , president Louisville and Portland Canal Company 550-557 
 
 Scudder, John A., president Memphis and Saint LouiB Packet Company, obstructions to naviga- 
 tion in the Mississippi River 615-618 
 
 Stannard, Hon. E. O., exportation of grain via New Orleans 626-638 
 
 Simpson, Col. J. H., United States Engineers, improvement of Mississippi River 591 
 
 Stewart, Hon. George N., coal-fields of Alabama 829-835 
 
 T. 
 
 Terminal facilities : 
 
 At New York, inadequate 3,77,280,308 
 
 * Increase of, imperatively demanded - 
 
 Charges at New York 4 ' 93 
 
 Charges at Montreal 
 
 Charges at Chicago 
 
 Charges at Buffalo 204,208 
 
 °2q 
 Charges at Ogdensburgh 
 
 Railroad companies decline to build elevators - 98 
 
 Storage capacity of New York ^98 
 
 Elevator charges at New York *™ 
 
 Necessity for elevators at New York 
 
 Profitsof "middle-men" 301-303 
 
 Storage, shortage, and overcharges 
 
 Lighterage system, defects of 
 
 Consignees compelled to pay overcharges • 
 
 Elevated railway required at New York 
 
 Report of Theo. F. Seers 347 
 
 Report of Robt. Taylor .'.'(^.'sK, 859, 864, 866 
 
 At New Orleans ■ gaa g43 
 
 Charges at New Orleans 825^-832 
 
 At Mobile 
 
 Transportation : 10 u 3 l 32 
 Cost per ton per mile on Philadelphia and Erie Railroad ■ 
 
 Cost per ton per mile on Chicago, Burlington, and Quincy Railroad ^ 
 
 Cost per ton per mile on Illinois Central Railroad •■--•• ^ 
 
 Cost per ton per mile in southern States 186 739 748 
 
 Cost per ton per mile on water-lines - j 
 
 Estimated cost from Chicago to New York by freight railroad ["""^""'".M, 39, 40, 201 
 
 Supply and demand govern prices ' 3 „ 
 
 Present facilities sufficient '. en 
 
 Expenses, how divided between railroad companies ^ 
 
 Increased means of, required by increased population 
 
988 , INDEX 
 
 Page. 
 Transportation— Continued. 
 
 Facilities and rates, remarks of E. D. Worcester 125-175 
 
 Actual cost on lakes, rivers, and canals 186 
 
 Coat of, from Chicago to New York 188 
 
 Cost of, from Chicago to Buffalo 224-228 
 
 Rail-lines cannot compete with water-lines 197 
 
 Rates less than in England, Germany, or France 256 
 
 Rates not extortionate 257 
 
 Hindrances at Chicago 265 
 
 Lack of, at Chicago and on lakes and railroads 267 
 
 No cars at way-stations 277 
 
 Cost of, on Illinois and Michigan Canal 277 
 
 Difficulties of, in winter 280 
 
 Cost less per ton for long distances 285 
 
 Water and rail compared 328,703,739,740,766 
 
 Cereals must go by rail in winter 3J1 
 
 Rates less in Europe than in America 331 
 
 Remedies for high rates 332 
 
 Cost of moving coal 398 
 
 Relative cost, canal and river .... 431 
 
 Cost on Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad 440 
 
 Cost on James River and Kanawha Canal 420 
 
 Rate per ton per mile on coal 462 
 
 By water to Cincinnati 463 
 
 Tonnage on Ohio River 497 
 
 Cost of, increased by "middle men "'.... 509 
 
 Winter and summer rates 510 
 
 Rates less from competing points '. 511 
 
 Method of transporting coal on Ohio and Mississippi Rivers 572-674 
 
 Rates of, from Pittsburgh to New Orleans 523 
 
 Increasing on rivers 524 
 
 Rates of, on grain oa Mississippi River 610 
 
 River and lakes compared 632 
 
 Resolution of Northwestern Farmers' Convention 647 
 
 Rates recommended by Northwestern Farmers' Convention 673 
 
 Rates higher on Mississippi River than on other water-lines 694 
 
 " Shortage" on grain moved by rail 538 
 
 Erie Canal superior to all railroads 740,741 
 
 By water not too slow 741 
 
 How mnch the farmer saves by going slow 742 
 
 By water gives cheap fuel -■ 744 
 
 Other routes imperatively demanded 745 
 
 "Transportation," not cotton, is "king" ... 750 
 
 Water-routes the only solution of the question 750 
 
 Reduction of cost by steam-towage - 751 
 
 Can be materially cheapened by slower time 824 
 
 By sail and by steam compared £60 
 
 Via New Orleans, advantages of 894 
 
 Chicago to New Orleans 897,898 
 
 Cairo to New Orleans 939 
 
 River and rail compared 943 
 
 Cost reduced by large ships 948 
 
 Comparative coBt of transporting grain in bulk and in packages 626 
 
 Cost of, &c.,fron> Kansas City 644 
 
 Of tobacco in bond 403 
 
 , Cost of transfer at Des Moines Rapids 604 
 
 Tonnage: 
 
 Erie Canal * 4 
 
 Aggregate of Pennsylvania Central Railroad 32 
 
 New Orleans and Saint Louis, 1850 to i860 714 
 
 Of boats on Ohio River 496 
 
 On Mississippi River •. 526, 617 
 
 On Ohio canals 538 
 
 On Louisville and Portland Canal 553 
 
 Of barges on LouiBville and Portland Canal 560 
 
 Ocean tonnage at New Orleans 688 
 
INDEX. 989 
 
 Towage: Page. 
 
 Belgian system 
 
 Steam Cable Towing Company \\\"" ~""i'n\ i.j *u <>aa 
 
 Statistics of tow-boat Caleb ' Jdl ' ,JM 
 
 i Rate of Bpeed against current, &c " 
 
 Report of D. 51. Green, esq., State engineer "....V""...[.. 337 338 
 
 Cost per day and profits of tow-boat * ' 33g 
 
 New system gives increased capacity to Erie Canal 342 ' 
 
 Report of New York produce exchange 343 
 
 Cost of tow on Ohio River 512 
 
 Cost of tow on Mississippi River .' 61 rj 
 
 On Mississippi River ."."..".".'.".""." 851,885-893 
 
 Method of towing ships from the sea to New Orleans and cost 8S6 
 
 Reduction of cost by depeening channel : 887 
 
 Coal towage from Pittsburgh §37 
 
 Wages of employes on tow-boats .*. 888 
 
 Monopoly of, at New Orleans yg!) 
 
 Actual cost and profits 891 
 
 Capital invested in boats 89 1 
 
 Charges to steamships $50 an hour 892 
 
 Companies are corporations : 893 
 
 Collision between tow-boat companies and United States Engineers in charge of works 693 
 
 Tow-boat Association obstructs bar 907 
 
 ■Methods of breaking down opposition 907 
 
 Practices of tow-boat companies, the case of the ship Francesca 9C8 
 
 Combination breaks up occasionally 908 
 
 Fort Saint Philip Canal would break up monopoly... 909 
 
 Rate of towage before the war 9C8 
 
 Tow-boat companies will not take a ship unless for whole distance 909 
 
 Obstruction of navigation by tow-boat companies 910 
 
 No opposition tow-boats permitted 911 
 
 Tow-boat companies an oppressive monopoly 911 
 
 Fair rates of towage 911 
 
 Tow-boat companies and United States dredging-machine 912 
 
 Cost of tow-boat per day .... 913 
 
 Profits of towing - 914 
 
 Effect of United States dredge-boats 915 
 
 Tow-boat companies purposely blockade channel to prevent dredging 953 
 
 Attempt to destroy Pass ^ l'Outre - 954 
 
 Tucker, Col. James T., general agent Illinois Central Railroad Company 897-900 
 
 Thurber, F. B., secretary New York Cheap Transportation Company 97 
 
 Tufts, Samuel P,, of Northwestern Farmers' Convention 673-688 
 
 Tabular statements : 
 
 Pennsylvania Central Railroad Company 56, 60-63 
 
 Erie Canal 94, 9 5 
 
 Michigan Central Railroad Company 173 
 
 New York Central and Hudson River Railroads 323-327 
 
 Material resources of West Virginia 477 
 
 Value and character of trade on Ohio River 
 
 Pomeroy Coal Company . 
 
 516 
 
 Rates of freight from Louisville 5S3 
 
 Chamber of commerce, Atlanta, Georgia 716 
 
 Tolls : 
 
 On Kanawha River 4S9 
 
 On Chesapeake and Albemarle Canal , 443 
 
 On New River 471 
 
 Tennessee River: . 771 
 
 Estimated cost of improvement " L 
 
 77 1 
 Extent of navigation 
 
 Muscle Shoals Falls 
 
 Proposed canal to connect with Tombigbee River 8i9 
 
 U. 
 
 234-242 
 
 ijtley, Mr., chairman board of canal commissioners of the State of Illino. 
 
990 INDEX. 
 
 Pajre. 
 
 Varble, Pinckney, Louisville, navigation of Mississippi River.. 576-578 
 
 VanHorn, R, T., Kansas City, " the new West" 639-646 
 
 W. 
 
 Water-lines : . 
 
 Relative economy of water and rail transportation 23 
 
 Rates of freight by water-lines . * 86 
 
 Competition between rail and water ended • 132 
 
 No pro-rating on lakes 226 
 
 Boats cannot fix rates 227 
 
 Freight-agents fix through rates ..'• 2J7 
 
 Must always be cheapest • 287 
 
 Relative rates of freight ■? 287 
 
 Advantages over rail 370, 737 
 
 Southern water-lines - '371, 738 
 
 Central Line recommended by Washington* 377 
 
 History of James River and Kanawha Canal ' 377 
 
 Cost, water-supply, &c, of Kanawha Canal 377-389 , 
 
 Value'of for increased transportation 496 / 
 
 Erie Canal chief cause of growth of New York 739 '- 
 
 Relative merits of proposed water-lines , : 768 
 
 All needed 708 
 
 Ice as an obstacle 770 
 
 Advantages of Florida canal-route 775, 804 
 
 Transportation at minimum cost only by water-lines 777 
 
 Charlestown to Richmond, proposed line 452-461 
 
 Worcester, E. D., secretary New York Central Railroad Company. History and general man- 
 agement of New York Central Railroad 125-175 
 
 Walker, Elmore H., water-routes to the sea 82-97 
 
 Walker, Thomas E., agent Green Line Transportation Company 779, 786, 791, 793 
 
 Williams, Hon. Price, Mobile, Alabama, bay and harbor of Mobile 807 
 
 Weeks, Capt. Silas, agent Mississippi and Dominion Steamship Company 878-884 
 
 Warrior River, list of obstructions 826, 327 
 
 Watered stock 81, 99, 102, 117, 133, 144, 146,317,320 
 
 Wheat: 
 
 Amount imported into England 178 
 
 Whence imported into England 178 
 
 Russian wheat, cost of transportation 173 
 
 How graded in Canada 183 
 
 Why imported into United States ;... 182 
 
 Charges for winter-storage in Canada 182 
 
 Inspection of, in Illinois 254 
 
 Annual produce Richmond 303 
 
 Walker, J. M., president Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Railroad Company 255-268 
 
 Wickham, William C, Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad 433-410 
 
 Whitcomb, H. D., chief engineer Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad Company 3S3-392 
 
 Welland Canal : 
 
 Proposed enlargement 1£3 
 
 Capacity of 185 
 
 Time required by ships in passing ,. 203 
 
 Cost of construction £12 
 
 Number of Bhips passing in 1872 ,. 212 
 
 Number of locks *>17 
 
 Disadvantages of - '. .. 021 
 
 Time of opening 225 
 
 West Virginia : 
 
 Table show ing resources of 477 
 
 Rank of, among the States 4g3 
 
 Appropriation by Government .,..,. 484 
 
 Coal and salt mines 485 
 
 Petroleum 48fi 
 
 Western and Atlantic Railroad : 
 
 Amount and value of farm products shipped m 1872 716 
 
 Other products t 717