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PARCEL POST 
 
 HEARINGS 
 
 BEFORE THE 
 
 SUBCOMMITTEE ON PARCEL POST 
 
 OF THE 
 
 xv s SENATE COMMITTEE ON POST OFFICES 
 AND POST ROADS 
 
 UNDER 
 
 S. RES. 56 
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO AND REPORT TO THE SENATE AT THE EARLIEST 
 DATE PRACTICABLE WHAT CHANGES ARE NECESSARY OR 
 DESIRABLE IN THE POSTAL SYSTEM OF THE UNITED 
 STATES OR IN LAWS RELATING TO THE POSTAL 
 SERVICE, AND PARTICULARLY WITH REFER- 
 ENCE TO THE ESTABLISHMENT OF 
 A PARCELS POST 
 
 NOVEMBER 7, 9, 10, 11, 13, 15, AND 
 DECEMBER 15, 1911 
 
 TESTIMONY OF P0ST4I, OFFICIALS AND FORMER POSTAL OFFICIALS 
 
 VOL. I 
 
 WASHINGTON 
 
 GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
 
 1912 
 
HE 
 A 31 
 
 COMMITTEE ON POST OFFICES AND POST ROADS, UNITED STATES 
 
 SENATE. 
 
 Sixty-second Congress, Second Session. 
 
 JONATHAN BOURNE, Jr., of Oregon, Chairman. 
 
 BOIES PENROSE, of Pennsylvania. WILLIAM LORIMER, of Illinois. 
 
 WINTHROP MURRAY CRANE, of Massa- JOHN H. BANKHEAD, of Alabama, 
 
 chusetts. ROBERT L. TAYLOR, of Tennessee. 
 
 SIMON GUGGENHEIM, of Colorado. ELLISON D. SMITH, of South Carolina. 
 
 PRANK O. BRIGGS, of New Jersey. CLAUDE A. SWANSON, of Virginia. 
 
 HARRI A. RICHARDSON, of Delaware. NATHAN P. BRYAN, of Florida. 
 
 WILLIAM O. BRADLEY, of Kentucky. JAMES E. MARTINE, of New Jersey. 
 JOSEPH L. BRISTOW, of Kansas. 
 
 A. W. Pbescott, Clerk. 
 
TABLE OF CONTENTS. 
 
 Date. 
 
 1911. Pages. 
 
 Nov. 7. Testimony of Hon. James J. Britt, Third Assistant Postmaster 
 
 General 5 to 34 
 
 9. Testimony of Hon. Charles P. Grand field, First Assistant Post- 
 master General 35 to 79 
 
 10. Testimony of Hon. Joseph Stewart, Second Assistant Post- 
 master General 80 to 156 
 
 11.- Testimony of Hon. P. V. De Graw, Fourth Assistant Postmaster 
 
 General 157 to 190 
 
 13. Testimony of Hon. Frank H. Hitchcock, Postmaster General. . 191 to 242 
 15. Testimony of Hon. George v. L. Meyer, Secretary of the Navy, 
 
 formerly Postmaster General 243 to 260 
 
 Dec. IS. Testimony of Hon. W. S. Shallenberger, formerly Second 
 
 Assistant Postmaster General 261 to 274 
 
 3 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 
 Washington, D. C, Tuesday, November 7, 1911. 
 
 Hon. James J. Britt, Third Assistant Postmaster General, was 
 present to testify before the committee. 
 
 The Chairman. In order to economize time I will ask you first 
 to reply to the questions I am about to ask, and afterward I will be 
 glad to listen to any general statement with reference to the matters 
 treated which you think will be of value to the committee in its 
 inquiry. 
 
 It will be necessary that you first be sworn, Mr. Britt. 
 
 (Hon. James J. Britt was thereupon duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Kindly state your age and present occupation in 
 the Post Office Department. 
 
 Mr. Britt. I am 51 years old and am the Third Assistant Post- 
 master General. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you occupied that position? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Since the 1st day of December, 1910. 
 
 The Chairman. State as well as you can, please, from memory, the 
 total length of your service in the Post Office Department, designat- 
 ing the positions you have held and the length of time you have 
 served in the department. 
 
 Mr. Britt. From the 1st day of July, 1909, to the 1st day of De- 
 cember, 1910, 1 was special counsel to the bureau of the Third Assist- 
 ant Postmaster General, having charge of all suits pending and 
 brought, to which the department was a party, in matters relating 
 to the second-class mail privilege, my commission requiring me to 
 prosecute or defend all that class of suits, and I was also counsel to 
 the Third Assistant Postmaster General, and gave him advice and 
 opinions on departmental questions appertaining to that bureau. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly state, for the information of 
 the committee, the special matters appertaining to the department 
 in general that come particularly under your jurisdiction? 
 
 Mr. Britt. I have six divisions in my bureau, the Division of 
 Finance, the Division of Classification of Mail Matter, the Divi- 
 sion of Money Orders, the Division of Begistered Mail, the Division 
 of Stamps, and the Division of Redemption. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly describe, briefly, the method of 
 collecting and accounting for postal funds? 
 
 Mr. Britt. The source of postal revenues in the main is the sale 
 of postage stamps. There are other incidental sources of postal reve- 
 nue, but the moneys derived from the sale of the various denomi- 
 
6 PARCEL. POST. 
 
 nations of stamps constitute in the main the postal revenues. Other 
 sources are the fees charged for the issuance of postal money orders, 
 domestic and international, and for box rent. Revenues are also 
 derived from other matters, mainly of an incidental character among 
 which are the revenues derived from the sale of ^deliverable dead- 
 letter matter and waste paper, and a number of other things or an 
 inconsequential character. . . , 
 
 The Chairman. How soon after the receipt of money must it be 
 deposited, under the regulations ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. The regulations vary, depending upon the class of the 
 post office, whether first, second, third, or fourth. I think the de- 
 posits at the first-class offices are made, generally, semimonthly under 
 the present regulations, but that being a matter without the depart- 
 ment, and disposed of finally by the postmaster, I am not so imme- 
 diately familiar with it, but if there is any information that I can 
 furnish on that point I shall be glad to do so. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there a general rule? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes; that is, as to second-class, semimonthly, and third- 
 class offices, monthly; fourth-class offices, quarterly. But I should 
 like, Senator, to cite the regulation to you and let it be put in ver- 
 batim in lieu of that statement. It is as follows : 
 
 The postmaster at AVashington and postmasters at cities where there is an 
 assistant treasurer shall deposit the postal revenues and all moneys accruing 
 at their offices with such assistant treasurer as often as once a week at leist, 
 and as much oftener as the Postmaster General may direct. (P. L. and R., sec. 
 362.) 
 
 Note. — There is no statute requiring the depositing of funds in depository 
 post offices at offices where there is no assistant treasurer. The Postmaster 
 General is required to gather all funds into the Treasury, and in this process 
 the surplus funds at post offices are gathered first in depository post offices. 
 (See sections 116 to 121 as to method of gathering revenues into the Treasury.) 
 There is no statute directing how frequently funds shall be deposited at offices 
 other than above, but this is left to the discretion of the Posmaster General. 
 
 Postmasters at cities where there is a treasurer or assistant treasurer must 
 deposit the surplus postal funds with such treasurer or assistant treasurer once 
 a week unless more frequent deposits are directed to be made by special order. 
 
 2. All postmasters at offices of the first and second classes, except in cities 
 where there is an assistant treasurer, must deposit on the 15th and the last day 
 of each month, except where otherwise instructed by special order, with the 
 depository designated by the Third Assistant Postmaster General. 
 
 3. Postmasters at offices of the third class must deposit monthly with the 
 depository designated by the Third Assistant Postmaster General. 
 
 4. Postmasters at offices of the fourth class must deposit at the end of each 
 quarter with the depository designated in the Official Postal Guide for January 
 last preceding the date of the deposit unless otherwise specially instructed by 
 the Third Assistant Postmaster General. 
 
 5. Where a change of depositories will better suit the convenience of post- 
 masters application therefor should be made to the Third Assistant Postmaster 
 General. 
 
 6. All postmasters must make their deposits within six days after the time 
 designated, and any postmaster who fails to do so will be held liable for any 
 loss that may result from such delay. 
 
 7. Postmasters at presidential offices who have no postal funds to deposit 
 should at the end of each month promptly notify the Auditor for the Post Office 
 Department (Bookkeeping Division) by letter, briefly stating the reasons there- 
 for. If the surplus revenue has been transferred to the money-order account 
 the report referred to must be sent to the auditor, in addition to the usual 
 " Notification of transfer of funds." Form 6024. ( See section 1102 ) Where 
 reports are not made as herein required postmasters will be treated as delin- 
 quents. (P. L. and R., sec. 363.) 
 
PABCEL. POST. 7 
 
 Note. — The regulations relative to the deposit of surplus funds and prepara- 
 tion and dispatch of remittances apply to money-order funds, except where a 
 regulation applies specifically to postal funds, and as provided in sections 1109 
 to 1115, relating to money-order funds. See sections 1116 to 1121 as to deposi- 
 tories and treatment of deposits therein; section 196 as to deposit of money 
 paid to postmasters on account of penalty or forfeiture. 
 
 The Chairman. That is perfectly agreeable. Please make a 
 memorandum to that effect. 
 
 Mr. Bhitt. May I say here that the business of the Third Assist- 
 ant being to supervise matters, to work out plans and ways, and to 
 look after the larger affairs, many of these things can not be known 
 in detail. 
 
 The Chairman. I appreciate that. 
 
 Mr. Britt. As I am testifying under oath about these various 
 things, I do not wish to be too specific. 
 
 The Chairman. Have occasions occurred where money is not 
 promptly transmitted to a depository office? 
 
 Mr. Britt. I think cases have occurred, but they have been indi- 
 vidual and sporadic; and, as I recall, very rare, and I do not believe 
 I could at this time name a particular instance. 
 
 The Chairman. In such cases how long a time is given the post- 
 master to get his account straight, before action is taken? 
 
 Mr. Britt. What do you mean by " action " ? 
 
 The Chairman. Action taken by the department for removal or 
 calling him on to Washington for an explanation. 
 
 Mr. Britt. When the Post Office Department gets information 
 of improper conduct on the part of the post office in relation to 
 finances, it is as early as possible made the subject of investigation 
 through an inspector, and upon the findings as disclosed in the 
 report the character" of the action is determined, and it is more or 
 less drastic in proportion to the enormity of the offense, but it is 
 the rule of the Post Office Department to give such cases immediate 
 attention, first endeavoring to safeguard the revenues, and then to 
 place the findings into the hands of the district attorney, if it is 
 thought a criminal action should follow. 
 
 The Chairman. Is the finding of the inspector final, or does the 
 postmaster have an appeal directly to you? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Well, it is generally disposed of in a very general way, 
 I may say; that is, all the channels of defense, as well as all of the 
 channels of information, are open, for instance, in the case of an 
 alleged violation in connection with the cancellations on the part of 
 a fourth-class postmaster, the matter comes to attention, possibly 
 either through the finance division in my bureau or through the 
 auditor's bureau, and upon that an investigation is made. I do not 
 know whether it would be considered strictly within my province, 
 but I usually review these cases myself sufficiently well to find out 
 what is in them. 
 
 The Chairman. As to the merits? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes, to determine the merits; and if a liability at- 
 taches to the postmaster, and to the sureties on his bond, we 
 endeavor to safeguard and collect the money, and where a prosecu- 
 tion should be brought, as I understand it, the inspectors' office fur- 
 nishes a report to the district attorney ; but if I think it is a particu- 
 larly flagrant case, I call it to attention myself. 
 
8 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. How long a time is given the postmaster to get 
 his postal accounts straight before any action is taken? I suppose 
 that depends upon the merits of the case as presented to you? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Entirely upon the merits of the case, and the apparent 
 willful intent. You will appreciate the fact that out of fifty-odd 
 thousand fourth-class postmasters it is not possible to get a very 
 competent incumbent in every instance— I mean in the highest sense. 
 We have honest men, good men, faithful and true; but, sometimes, 
 not having clerical experience, and of course no clerical allowance; 
 the result is that some patience has to be shown, and sometimes 
 indulgence is given upon the merits of the case, particularly so when 
 there is no willful intent disclosed. 
 
 The Chairman. What penalties, if any, are imposed by the de- 
 partment for the mixture of public funds with private funds ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. As I now recall, there is no departmental penalty, but 
 there is, I think, a provision of law that makes it a criminal offense 
 to mix funds. 
 
 The Chairman. And it then becomes a matter for the Department 
 of Justice to handle, for anything of that kind takes it out of your 
 jurisdiction at once? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Of course, it is the policy of the department to care- 
 fully guard against the intermixture of funds, particularly if it is 
 apt to lay open a gap for temptation to improper conduct. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you state what disposition is made of the 
 funds of the postal savings department? 
 
 Mr. Britt. That is not within my jurisdiction, but I can state my 
 understanding of it. 
 
 The Chairman. If you would kindly do so? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Under the act of June 25, 1910, under which the 
 postal-savings system was established, the local banks, upon their 
 proper qualification by filing the required securities in the nature of 
 bonds, are to be depositaries of the fund, and, as I recall the pro- 
 vision, it may be divided among them, but upon default of their 
 qualification or upon the default of there being a bank accessible in 
 the town of the depository office, an adjoining town having a bank is 
 made the place of deposit upon its qualification. 
 
 The Chairman. You say that is not under your jurisdiction. 
 Under what particular jurisdiction ai'e the postal-savings funds? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Well, Senator, I think I can give such a description of 
 it as will make it clear. At first, as you will recall, it was under the 
 control of a board of supervisors consisting of the Postmaster Gen- 
 eral, the Attorney General, and the Secretary of the Treasury, and I 
 believe in its legal aspect it is so yet, but the iast Congress so modified 
 it as to put it more generally under the control of the Postmaster 
 General, as it was a postal function, as generally understood, and it 
 is operated, as I understand it, somewhat as an independent bureau, 
 but of course under the general supervision of the Postmaster Gen- 
 eral. Under the first organization the chief clerk of the Post Office 
 Department was the secretary of the board of trustees, and I believe 
 that he is so yet, but the immediate management has been under the 
 control of a skilled accountant, Mr. Thompson, who was formerly 
 at the head of the division of finance in my bureau. As I under- 
 stand it, it sustains that attitude. It is, of course, a postal function 
 
PARCEL POST. 9 
 
 in a very general way, and is under the legal supervision and control 
 of this board of trustees, with the power very largely, under the law, 
 
 fiven to the Postmaster General, and it is conducted within the 
 'ost Office Department and is supervised and conducted in the way 
 in which I had suggested, but as it is not under my bureau I would 
 not wish too critical dependence placed upon my statement in regard 
 to it. 
 
 The Chairman. All other finances appertaining to the department, 
 however, come under your bureau, do they not? 
 
 Mr. Beitt. They do. 
 
 The Chairman. This is the only exception? 
 
 Mr. Britt. This is the only exception. 
 
 The Chairman. State the methods of handling funds received at 
 fourth-class post offices where the postmaster is paid on a commission 
 basis. I want particularly to know whether he is required to deposit 
 all moneys received, or whether he is allowed to deduct his own com- 
 pensation. I simply want to get a clear understanding of the method. 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes. I am speaking of that matter now, from the 
 knowledge which I have acquired of it as it comes up to me for final sig- 
 nature and action, as having been furnished through the auditor and 
 division of finance, and, as I said in the other instance, I do not 
 wish too much stress laid upon the accuracy of my statement, but if 
 anything further is desired I can send you the head of the division 
 of finance. The report, of course, is made quarterly, and is sworn to, 
 and, as I now understand it, his allowance is deducted from the re- 
 mittance which would be made to the State depositary. 
 
 The Chairman. By him? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. He is permitted to deduct it himself? 
 
 Mr. Britt. That is as I understand it. 
 
 The Chairman. How much is left to the personal honesty of a 
 fourth-class postmaster in this respect? I mean, what check have 
 you, other than the oath of the postmaster, to the correctness of his 
 quarterly report, or what check has the department? 
 
 Mr. Britt. We have the check of the charge to him of all the 
 stamp paper which is committed to his keeping; that is the first 
 check. We have the check of the general supervision of the de- 
 partment. 
 
 The Chairman. The espionage? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes; the general supervision, and we also have the 
 special supervision of the inspector in charge of that division, and 
 such particular cases of inspection as the case may require. Of 
 course, we finally have the Auditor for the Post Office Department, 
 who, as you know, is a Treasury official, who finally audits all ac- 
 counts for the Post Office Department. Under the recent change 
 made in the department, originating in my bureau and ordered by 
 the Postmaster General, is what we call an administrative audit of 
 the stamp accounts of the postmasters of all classes. That is, prior 
 to this time the charge has only been in outline, so far as the depart- 
 ment was immediately concerned, and the main financial account 
 was between the postmaster and the auditor, but under this new 
 plan the postmasters are charged with all of the several denomina- 
 tions of stamps, as I understand it, and their reports are made to 
 
10 PARCEL POST. 
 
 the department directly, and a careful administrative audit is made, 
 so that we may know when the stamps left the department, or left 
 the stamp agency at the direction of the department, where they 
 went, when they were committed to the postmaster, how many he 
 has on hand of each denomination, and their value. This audit, 
 which may be called an administrative audit on the part of the 
 Post Office Department, gives the department a more thorough 
 check, as well as a better understanding of the account, and it comes 
 up to the auditor in a much more condensed and finished form than 
 it did formerly. 
 
 The Chairman. And still you have to depend upon the integrity 
 of the postmaster himself in his return as to the amount or value of 
 the stamps on hand ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes; of course the personal equation can never be lost 
 in any of these things. 
 
 The Chairman. But you consider this now rather an improved 
 and a dual check ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. A very great improvement, and, using your phrase, a 
 dual check. And its greatest advantage, in my judgment, lies in the 
 broad source of information to postal officials and to postal clerks, 
 for the more work that is done, the more information there is; the 
 closer the work, the more familiarity; whereas before the line be- 
 tween the auditor and the original supply was much more removed 
 and indistinct than now, if I may express it that way. 
 
 The Chairman. Has it had sufficient trial to make a demonstra- 
 tion of its efficiency in the way of minimizing dishonesty or losses? 
 
 Mr. Britt. We are only at this time auditing the accounts of the 
 first quarter, so I could not give an accurate answer. 
 
 The Chairman. You have not had opportunity for demonstra- 
 tion. What, if any, other changes in accounting methods under a 
 general parcel-post system would be necessary because of the some- 
 what different nature of this business ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. I did not quite understand that question. 
 
 The Chairman. I say, what, if any, change in accounting methods 
 under a general parcel-post — that is, an enlargement of the parcel- 
 post system— would be necessary because of the somewhat different 
 nature of this business ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. As I see it, there would only be an enlargement of the 
 duties, and not a serious complication of them. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, in your department it would be simply an 
 enlargement of figures in the increase of volume of business, would 
 it not? 
 
 Mr. Britt. In so far as the supplying and the receiving of reports, 
 the entry of these reports, and the making of them show their proper 
 condition in the form of governmental records, it would be. I con- 
 ceive the prospective task to be mainly a matter of enlargement and 
 increase of work. 
 
 The Chairman. In a general or enlarged parcel-post system would 
 you advise the use of stamps of special design, so that the receipts 
 from this source could be kept separate from all other receipts ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Well, I would advise in all instances that the policy be 
 so instituted and conducted, if possible, as to furnish an easy sys- 
 tem of cost keeping — in my judgment a great necessity in any depart- 
 ment of the Government 
 
PARCEL POST. 11 
 
 The Chairman. Well, having distinct stamps separate from the 
 ordinary postage stamps for the parcel post would greatly facilitate 
 that, wouldn't it? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. You would have an absolute check on the number 
 of stamps issued and sold? 
 
 Mr. Britt. As a general proposition I would, but I want to make 
 this explanation, if you will allow me : The definition of a parcel-post 
 system, as now understood, is a policy by which the Government un- 
 dertakes to receive, to safeguard, and to deliver packages of mer- 
 chandise generally, within a limit of 11 pounds, as understood by the 
 majority of those using it. We have no such system as that, going 
 beyond 4 pounds, and if you were to distinguish the enlarged use 
 of the system from its use up to 4 pounds, as we now have, a ques- 
 tion of whether we should have a distinguishing stamp above that 
 limit would be a matter that could be determined only in the light of 
 experience, but as a general proposition a distinguishing stamp would 
 be helpful. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, if you simply enlarge the system and in- 
 crease the weight limit from 4 pounds, making no distinction as be- 
 tween different weights except in charges, you are clearly of the 
 opinion, are you not, that it would be advisable to have distinctive 
 stamps for the fourth-class matter? 
 
 Mr. Britt. As I have said, it would be advisable. 
 
 The Chairman. It so appealed to me. You can see no disad^ 
 vantages, can you, Mr. Britt, if such a plan were adopted of having 
 distinctive stamps for the fourth-class matter? 
 
 Mr. Beitt. No; not unless the use of the distinctive stamp should 
 be made compulsory, and a variety of them should be used so as to 
 greatly increase the work of postal officials, or render confusion ; that 
 would be a consideration. 
 
 The Chairman. I can not see where there will be any confusion 
 where you have two kinds of stamps; for instance, a parcel-post 
 stamp and a general postage stamp. To my mind the only difficulty 
 might be in cancellation of the stamps, that you could not use the 
 same machines that you have now for first-class matter ; you can not 
 use them altogether with large packages. 
 
 Mr. Britt. No. But suppose, Senator, you take this case : We have 
 at this time, or we are just putting into use, a new registry stamp de- 
 signed for the purpose of indicating the payment of 10 cents postage, 
 and it is engraved " Kegistry stamp." 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Beitt. But in preparing the regulations for putting it into 
 effect the Postmaster General did not make its use exclusive, but 
 urged its use, so if one goes to the post office with a letter and puts 
 on 10 cents in ordinary postage we can not refuse his letter on that 
 account, but we want him to put on a registry stamp. Now, if you 
 have a parcel that requires a postage of 15 cents and the mailer does 
 not chance to get the special 15-cent stamp for that parcel, but he 
 does have 15 cents in ordinary postage and uses it, he would under 
 the ordinary procedure be entitled, of course, to use the ordinary 
 stamp. But if the use were made compulsory some inconvenience 
 might arise. 
 
12 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Why would not the benefit that would accrue to 
 the department in the simplification of following the growth of the 
 business more than offset the inconvenience to the general public, 
 and would not the improvement of the general welfare of the gen- 
 eral public more than offset that inconvenience to them? 
 
 Mr. Britt. It probably would. That is, of course, a matter of 
 speculation, and we could not say definitely. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, it is a matter of opinion. 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes; a matter of opinion. 
 
 The Chairman. What would be your opinion in reference to that? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Well, my opinion is that benefit would result from 
 these distinctive stamps. As I say, it would be possible to confuse 
 them by making them so numerous, but I think benefit would be the 
 result. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I think so. Do you believe it would be ad- 
 visable to have a parcel-post label printed, and, if so, would you 
 suggest that stamps of various denominations be embossed thereon? 
 
 Mr. Britt. That is a matter to which I have given no thought, 
 and would not care to hazard any opinion further than to say that if 
 a parcel-post label with an embossed stamp thereon tended to 
 simplify and to distinguish, it would seem to be a helpful postal 
 facility. 
 
 The Chairman. It would be a matter to be carefully considered in 
 reference to the benefit received and the inconveniences incident 
 to it? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Exactly. 
 
 The Chairman. Would it be possible to keep the cost of a parcel- 
 post system separate from the cost of the other branches of the 
 service, and how difficult would that be? 
 
 Mr. Britt. It would be possible, but exceedingly difficult and 
 costly, in my judgment. 
 
 The Chairman. Is a separate record of cost kept with respect to 
 the postal savings bank system or any other branches for such 
 service ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. The postal savings system constitutes a postal facility 
 of itself, independent and complete. I think I may say that there is 
 a full record of everything kept in relation to it, but, as I said 
 awhile ago ; my knowledge of it is only second hand ; I do not have 
 the supervision or management of it. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, unquestionably there is a separate account 
 kept ; otherwise it would come under your supervision. 
 
 Mr. Britt. Certainly. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the present method of disposing of postal 
 funds; that is, is any considerable amount kept in the commercial 
 banks designated as depositaries of the Government, or is the bulk 
 of the money covered into the Treasury? 
 
 Mr. Britt. It is the policy of the law, as you well know, to use 
 the incoming postal revenues for the support of the department and 
 the service as they accrue. 
 
 While there is a provision of law that we may make a request 
 upon the Secretary of the Treasury for setting apart other funds for 
 immediate use, yet it is the intention and well-nigh the fact that the 
 incoming revenue of the system supports itself as it comes. The 
 
PAECEL POST. 13 
 
 moneys collected through the various channels which I have named 
 are deposited in the State depository post offices, and by that I mean 
 the ones designated. The Postmaster General designates one post- 
 master in a State as a depositary postmaster, and by him the funds 
 are deposited in the Treasury of the United States or one of the nine 
 subtreasuries of the United States, which, of course, are Government 
 depositories for all sorts of funds. The deposit is for the use of the 
 Post Office Department alone. 
 
 The Chairman. The Postmaster General, then, designates the 
 main depositary of the State for all postal funds ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. The Secretary of the Treasury designates the place of 
 deposit of funds generally, but not for surplus postal funds. 
 
 The Chairman. I understood you to say the Postmaster General. 
 
 Mr. Britt. I say the Postmaster General designates the post- 
 master through whom the deposits for a State are made; that is, he 
 is a depositary postmaster, and the funds of the smaller offices are re- 
 mitted to him and through him they go to the Treasury. 
 
 The Chairman. And the Postmaster General has no voice in the 
 bank designation ; that is purely the function of the Secretary of the 
 Treasury ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. As I understand it, that is a function of the Secretary 
 of the Treasury. 
 
 The Chairman. Is any interest paid on the money itself kept in 
 the banks? 
 
 Mr. Britt. No; interest is forbidden. We have had some ques- 
 tions of that character since I have been Third Assistant Postmaster 
 General. The .postmasters are responsible under their oath and 
 under their bond for the funds, and they are of course expected, 
 under the regulations, to make remittances according to the regula- 
 tions, but they will have something on hand temporarily for -a few 
 days, or maybe a week or two, in the very nature of things; they may 
 not have enough to deposit, so to speak, but they are responsible for 
 that money, and they may deposit it in any local bank they choose, 
 provided there is not a subtreasury there, but they are not permitted 
 to receive any interest on it whatever. I believe within my experi- 
 ence there have been one or two instances where the postmaster un- 
 wittingly did receive some interest from the banks, in small amounts, 
 and I took the matter up and sought the counsel of the Assistant 
 Attorney General in regard to it, as I now recall, and made pro- 
 vision for the covering of it in as an exceptional collection, with the 
 proper explanations in relation to it. The reasons why we would 
 not permit them to collect interest are obvious. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose that the scope of the present parcel-post 
 system was enlarged in weight limit and decreased postage charge, 
 so that presumably that branch of the service would increase in vol- 
 ume; would you suggest that the parcel-post receipts be kept separ 
 rate from other postal funds, if such a system were authorized ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. I do not see a necessity for their separation, as it would 
 only be an enlargement of the money that we collect on all parcels at 
 that time. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you consider it practical to send parcels 
 C O. D., and if so, under what restrictions? 
 
14 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Britt. It would be possible. I may say it would be reason- 
 ably practicable, and it is followed by some of the European coun- 
 tries in the administraton of their parcel-post system; but in a 
 large country like ours, with a great variety of domestic commerce, 
 I am of the opinion that it would be a rather cumbersome system. 
 
 The Chairman. Varied domestic commerce ; I do not see that you 
 add to the varieties. You simply increase the volume of one class of 
 particular variety now in existence. 
 
 Mr. Britt. You add very greatly to the variety of articles trans- 
 mitted by the post when you raise the maximum limitation from 4 
 pounds to 11 pounds, but it will still come under the general purview 
 of domestic commerce of small parcels. 
 
 The Chairman. With reference to the money-order service, would 
 you think any change in it necessary or desirable, if the present 
 parcel post were enlarged in scope or volume? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Well, a very close inter-relation between the money- 
 order system and the parcel-post system does not appear to me. I 
 favor some changes in the money-order system considered in relation 
 to itself. 
 
 The Chairman. I suppose this will be contained in your report to 
 the Postmaster General? 
 
 Mr. Britt. It will be submitted to him in my report; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Would there be a greater tendency to order parcels 
 by mail than at present ; and if so, would you suggest the adoption of a 
 postal note to cover the transmission of small sums of money? 
 
 Mr. Britt. I have no doubt but that the ordering of parcels by mail 
 would very greatly increase when we raise the maximum weight and 
 enlarge the system. The postal note has not been an especially suc- 
 cessful venture as a postal facility in our experience. We had it, as 
 you no doubt recall, personally, years ago, and used it rather exten- 
 sively, but we abandoned it. 
 
 The Chairman. Could you state the reason, or your understanding 
 of the reason, for which it was abandoned ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. My understanding of the reason is that it was largely 
 superseded by the money order. As you recall, the Congress last 
 year made provision for the postal note, optional with the Postmaster 
 General as to making it operative, up to the limitation of $10. I 
 myself gave it quite a great deal of attention, and a committee was 
 appointed by the Postmaster General to work out a scale of charges, 
 as well as forms of orders, and it was found, as I understood, very 
 difficult to put it into force, because of the fact that if you have 
 from 1 cent to $10 an arrangement by which anybody can buy an 
 order for any amount between those limitations, then in order to 
 safeguard the issuance of the postal note it is pretty nearly neces- 
 sary to make a finished note of the denomination which you want to 
 issue. 
 
 The Chairman. To prevent counterfeiting? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Well, yes ; partly, and to facilitate its use. Then there 
 was considered a plan of using multiple numbers — $2, $3, $4, $5, and 
 $2.50, etc.— and the committee gave a great deal of attention to that, 
 and various forms were made out and submitted, and the matter is 
 still under consideration, I may say, by the Postmaster General and 
 by the committee, and also receiving occasional thought by myself. 
 
PARCEL POST. 15 
 
 The Chairman. Are you on the committee? 
 
 Mr. Beitt. I am not on the committee, but by virtue of my position 
 I am interested in it. But I must say that the result of my inquiries 
 as to making it a useful and practical thing have not been satisfac- 
 tory. 
 
 The Chairman. Has there been outside opposition to the postal 
 notes from private institutions, banks, or express companies? 
 
 Mr. Beitt. I do not recall any expression of opposition. In fact, 
 that matter has not been greatly agitated to my knowledge. I only 
 know that the Postmaster General, as well as myself, was very anx- 
 ious to put it into operation, if we could see any improvement in it 
 over the postal money order, but whether our final inquiries will 
 find any I am not able to say. 
 
 The Chairman. The investigation is in process? 
 
 Mr. Britt. It is. 
 
 The Chairman. But a conclusion has not as yet been reached. 
 Now, please describe the present system under which you issue post- 
 age stamps, stamp books, stamped envelopes, newspaper wrappers, 
 postal cards to the various postmasters, and the system you follow 
 m seeing that they are properly accounted for. 
 
 Mr. Britt. Well, Senator, I want to make an outline statement of 
 that, and then if you desire very detailed information, I will have to 
 furnish that later. 
 
 The Chairman. No ; I just want a skeleton, if you please. 
 
 Mr. Britt. I understand the principles and policies of all these 
 things, but I, of course, do not do the personal, detailed work. 
 
 The Chairman. No ; of course I understand that. 
 
 Mr. Britt. The stamps are manufactured by the Bureau of Engrav- 
 ing and Printing, as you know, under contract, the contract having 
 been let under advertisements for proposals or bids. They are issued 
 to the postmasters and subagencies. We have 50 or 60 subagencies 
 at places like St. Louis, Minneapolis, St. Paul, New Orleans, etc. 
 
 The Chairman. Autocratic zones, I suppose ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Determined by yourself ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Determined in the light of experience and the neces- 
 sities of the service. 
 
 The Chairman. But by whom? Who has the right of determi- 
 nation ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Well, it is done by the Third Assistant. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. Well, it probably should be, as I understand. 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes. But there have been but few established during 
 my incumbency. I am not especially familiar with that part. These 
 postmasters and subagencies make their requisition on a prescribed 
 form, and the purchasing agent directs by his order that the Director 
 of the Bureau of Engraving and Printing supply the stamps, and 
 that order is drawn by the head of the division of stamps in my 
 bureau, and is approved by myself as Third Assistant Postmaster 
 General. This goes to the purchasing agent, who, by his order, 
 requests or directs the Director of the Bureau of Engraving and 
 Printing to furnish this postmaster, who may also be a subagent — 
 but if he is a subagent he is addressed as subagent, or postmaster and 
 subagent — and the supply is furnished to him in that way, with the 
 
16 PARCEL POST. 
 
 accompanying invoice or descriptive list and statement of charge and 
 value. He is in that way charged with that amount. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you have direct communication with the 
 60 subagents ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes. . . 
 
 The Chairman. And you also have direct communication with 
 the individuals ultimately receiving them through the subagent, so 
 that you get a dual check ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. From the postmaster direct and the subagent in 
 his distribution. 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes. The requisition is made by the postmaster in that 
 vicinity or community upon this subagent, but it is all a matter of 
 record at the department. 
 
 The Chairman. What discretionary power is given the subagent, 
 if any, in reference to the amount of stamps that he is authorized 
 to give to certain officers? Is he given any discretionary power or 
 is he bound down by rule as to the maximum amount he can furnish 
 to any postmaster at any one time? 
 
 Mr. Britt. As I understand it, we keep a safe three months' sup- 
 ply in advance, based upon prior sales and the sales outlook and busi- 
 ness condition, as nearly as can be, though I assume it is true in many 
 instances we have on hand in places stock that lasts six months or 
 much longer. 
 
 The Chairman. Why, of course, like goods in a store. 
 
 Mr. Britt. Certainly, and according to the demand. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you found patrons lose or fail to use any 
 considerable quantity of stamps and stamped paper they purchase? 
 In other words, is there any appreciable gain to the Government 
 through losses or destroyed stamps and post-office paper? 
 
 Mr. Britt. We receive those that are damaged or destroyed or lost 
 b) r the postmaster or subagent. Of course, we have a regular redemp- 
 tion division that inquires thoroughly and minutely into the whole 
 matter, and we are careful not to permit the idea to obtain that there 
 can be redemption for just any reason ; but there may be redemption 
 for causes that are unavoidable — accidents and destruction by fire 
 or by water or by a train wreck, by burglary, and things of that sort. 
 In other words, the idea is that these stamps are in hands mainly 
 responsible for them, and only something of the nature of an un- 
 avoidable act or the act of God, as we say, relieves them. 
 
 The Chairman. Believes them of the responsibility? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Exactly ; that is the idea. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, in reference to the post office and post- 
 masters; but how about individual citizens? What I want to par- 
 ticularly ascertain is whether the Government has any data to dem- 
 onstrate the gain to the Government by the loss of stamps or post- 
 office paper after it has passed into the hands of the purchaser? 
 
 Mr. Britt. We have no data upon which any definite informa- 
 tion may be based, but we know that the Government gains consid- 
 erable — I believe I may safely use the word " considerable " — by losses 
 of that character, for the reason that we do not redeem the "stamps 
 from individuals, and that rule is based upon experience, of course, 
 to the effect that so many improper claims are made through all sorts 
 
PARCEL POST. 17 
 
 of schemes that we are compelled to reduce, to postmasters and 
 officials, or in the case of postal cards or stamped envelopes to the 
 original purchaser, to redeem it from the original purchaser so as 
 to avoid the possibility of perpetration of many small frauds. 
 
 The Chairman. I assume that really there is quite a revenue to 
 the Government by the purchase of stamps by collectors, isn't there — 
 the philatelists? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes ; there is an accruing revenue— an appreciable rev- 
 enue, I might say — resulting from the sales to the philatelists, and 
 of course they are constantly working that trade, sometimes with an 
 enthusiasm that amounts to an infatuation. It appeals to the imag- 
 ination very wonderfully with some individuals. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you ever formed an estimate as to the 
 probable amount of stamps and stamped paper in the possession of 
 the public? 
 
 Mr. Britt. No ; I have had no data upon which to base an estimate. 
 I have had application for the redemption, as I recall, in one in- 
 stance, of almost a million postal cards — I believe the number was in 
 the neighborhood of 800,000 or 1,000,000. That was a case in which 
 one large firm had bought up cards that had been bought by other 
 firms and, of course, they had put their advertisement on the postal ; 
 then, in some instances, had attempted to erase those advertisements 
 by the various chemical erasers — the names of which I am not 
 familiar with — but it presented such a conglomerate mixture that I 
 was unable to tell whether there was or Was not fraud in the claim, 
 although I gave it every consideration on account of the amount in- 
 volved, and finally prepared a memorandum and took it to the Post- 
 master General, and he went over it with great pains and care, and 
 finally reached the same conclusion to which I came, that, although 
 somebody connected with the transaction at some stage had rights 
 in the matter,- we could not tell who it was. 
 
 The Chairman. And you denied the claim? 
 
 Mr. Britt. The result was that we had to deny the claim. I name 
 that as the most notable instance that has come to my notice. 
 
 The Chairman. But in an instance of that kind the Government 
 had received the money and yet had not rendered the service? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. I assume you take the position that it was the 
 fault of the purchaser and not the fault of the Government that 
 the service was not rendered ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. The rule is that we try to redeem where the fault lies 
 with the Government. 
 
 The Chairman. Or on account of an unavoidable accident? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes; but where the fault is wholly that of the pur- 
 chaser we are compelled, under the rules, to throw it on the pur- 
 chaser in order to protect the public. Of course, if we knew the 
 merits of each particular case, and we knew it as a certainty, there 
 are many cases, no doubt, of that character where the rules ought to 
 be so modified as to permit redemption. 
 
 The Chairman. Your position is that the reliability and the re- 
 sponsibility of the Government is simply to act as a common carrier, 
 and it rests with the purchaser himself — he takes the risk, any 
 
 21845— vol 1—12 2 
 
18 PARCEL POST. 
 
 risk other than accident, and has no claim except to compel the 
 Government to carry that article at the price charged ? 
 
 Mr. Beitt. That is my position, and a little more, Senator. 1 hat, 
 of course, is the prime function of the postal establishment, to 
 undertake to do the service for the charge made, but I consider that 
 it is its function wherever practicable to administer justice to a citi- 
 zen wherein a proper claim has arisen, where no fault on his part 
 has been shown, if such claim can be favorably considered, at the 
 same time preserving a rule by which the public revenues can be 
 protected. For instance, in the case of the redemption of postal cards 
 and stamped envelopes to which we have referred, there are in- 
 stances in which the citizen should have his cards and his envelopes 
 redeemed at 100 cents on the dollar, in my opinion. 
 The Chaieman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Britt. But if there is an unqualified rule to that effect the 
 impositions upon the Government are, or are likely to be, so great 
 that considerable frauds may be committed; hence the department 
 has to make the best regulations it can under the circumstances, and 
 enforce them, with the purpose of protecting the revenues, and at 
 the same time to do justice to the citizen as fully as it can. 
 
 The Chaieman. Is it a fact that stamped envelopes and newspaper 
 wrappers bought in small quantities because of the indivisibility of 
 our coins beyond a certain point are sold for a somewhat higher 
 price than those taken in larger quantities, proportionately? 
 
 Mr. Bkitt. If I understand the question, it is true. This is the 
 rule: Under the statutes we are required to supply the stamped en- 
 velopes and newspaper wrappers to the public through the proper 
 agencies at the cost of manufacture and distribution, with the value of 
 the stamps added, and that we endeavor to do with the best light be- 
 fore us as to the cost of railway transportation and official service ren- 
 dered in connection with it. Whether we are a little below it, some- 
 times, just on it, or above it, we have no means of telling with cer- 
 tainty, as it is a matter of estimation; but what we try to do is to 
 supply them to the public at the cost of production with the value of 
 the stamp added and the cost of transportation and official service 
 rendered. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose I buy a 2-cent stamped envelope at the 
 post office, or I buy one thousand 2-cent stamped envelopes in a lot. 
 Do I get any difference per envelope in the price? 
 
 Mr. Britt. No, except the small addition arising from the uneven 
 change. 
 The Chairman. The price is the same? 
 
 Mr. Beitt. The price is fixed by the thousand; and if you have 
 reference to the special-request envelope, which has the return card 
 printed on it, those have the same rate. There is a long schedule of 
 prices, and I haven't it in mind, for what we call the plain envelope, 
 which has no return request at all, but they are all arranged by the 
 thousand as to price, and taking that rate by the thousand as the 
 basis, the price per 1 or per 2 is made the lowest it can be made in 
 order to get the exact change and get the value. 
 
 The Chaieman. And there is a difference because of the indivisi- 
 bility of our money? 
 Mr. Britt. There is necessarily obliged to be a difference. 
 
FABCEL POST. 19 
 
 The Chairman. Can I go to the post office and buy a 2-cent 
 stamped envelope for 2 cents? 
 
 Mr. Bbitt. No ; you would get two for 5 cents, as I understand it. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose I bought 2,000 envelopes at the post 
 office, what would I have to pay for them? Would I have to pay 
 $50? 
 
 Mr. Brett. You would pay the cost of the postage as the basis, 
 with the cost of manufacture and distribution added. 
 
 The Chairman. That would be $40? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes, sir; and to that postage is added the cost of the 
 production and distribution of the envelope, which is made out in a 
 rather complex schedule, dependent first upon the size 
 
 The Chairman. The quality? 
 
 Mr. Britt. And the quality — but I could not speak specifically of 
 any particular envelope, but I will be pleased to furnish you with 
 the schedule if desired. 
 
 The Chairman. But there would be a difference per envelope be- 
 tween the purchase of 2,000 from the post office and the purchase of 
 2 from the post office ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes ; there must be, from the very nature of it. 
 
 The Chairman. What account, if any, is made of the money that 
 thus accrues in these different ways if there is no separation at all in 
 the system of accounting? 
 
 Mr. Britt. The price at which the postmaster will sell these small 
 quantities is of course fixed and is reported in his schedule of sales, 
 so many envelopes, and he keeps that schedule. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose the postmaster is charged with 100,000 
 envelopes of a certain quality ; suppose 10,000 of those envelopes are 
 sold in lots of 2 for 5 cents, and the balance is sold in large lots of, 
 say, 10,000 each. There will be a difference in the rate per envelope 
 over those sold in lots of two and those sold in thousand lots and 
 multiples of same ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Does his account show that? Does he have to 
 reserve to the Government here all that he receives, or is he charged 
 so much on a basis of 100,000 ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes ; in that instance he makes return of all he receives 
 in the nature of an excess, but of the clerical details I am not 
 familiar. 
 
 The Chairman. You referred to the printing of special-request 
 envelopes. Would you kindly state for the information of the com- 
 mittee what arrangements you make for printing these and what 
 opposition this excites from the printing trade ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. The statutes of the United States provide for this 
 printing on the application of the patron, and they are so printed, 
 but it amounts only to the name and address, and not an advertise- 
 ment, and we have endeavored to enforce the rules very strictly so 
 as to keep out the advertisements, and the department, as you recall, 
 earnestly favored a continuation of that policy, the Postmaster 
 General believing that it was an economy to the public generally, as 
 well as a great public convenience, which views he urged, as I recall, 
 before your committee last year, and the policy was continued in 
 force. As to the opposition to it, it was very considerable. A num- 
 ber of printing and manufacturing concerns protested against it, and 
 
20 PARCEL POST. 
 
 appeared before the Senate Committee on Post Offices and Post Koads 
 and voiced their sentiment very vigorously. _ 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; I am familiar with that. But, aside from 
 that opinion, it is of great advantage and convenience to the Gov- 
 ernment to have the return card on the envelope ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. A very great convenience, and a very great saving to 
 the public, in my judgment, and it is a good policy for the Govern- 
 ment. 
 
 The Chairman. And for the general welfare of the public gen- 
 erally ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Decidedly so. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you expect the same opposition to the 
 printing of special requests on parcel-post labels, if a system of labels 
 were inaugurated? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Well, I should not think the opposition would be so 
 great to the printing. 
 
 The Chairman. Because of the difference in volume? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Because of the difference in volume. However, that 
 is a mere opinion. 
 
 The Chairman. As I understand, under our international postal 
 arrangement, each country keeps all the money which it collects from 
 postage paid on international mails within its boundaries, and that 
 it transmits without charge the international mail received by it. 
 Is that correct ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. That, as I understand, is the policy. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any exceptions to these rules? 
 
 Mr. Brut. Not to my knowledge. I will say, however, that the 
 matter of the transportation of mails is a function of the Second 
 Assistant Postmaster General, and I would not want to speak with 
 too much authority on that subject. 
 
 The Chairman. It is your opinion, isn't it, that the United 
 States should transmit free of charge all packages posted under our 
 parcel-post agreement with the United Kingdom — that is, packages 
 shipped from the United Kingdom into the United States — the 
 United States carries free of charge so far as it relates to its dis- 
 tribution and delivery in the United Sta,tes. 
 
 Mr. Britt. It is my opinion that that is the proper policy under 
 such reciprocal arrangements and understanding as causes it to get 
 an equal service. That is the proper policy always. 
 
 The Chairman. As I understand, the United Kingdom has two 
 services, the official and the semiofficial. Please state if the contract 
 stipulates anything about this semiofficial service and just what the 
 circumstances are concerning it, if you know. 
 
 Mr. Britt. I am not familiar with that matter. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a matter for the. second assistant? 
 
 Mr. Britt. The second assistant could give you that information. 
 
 The Chairman. If the present parcel-post system were enlarged in 
 its scope, would there be any changes necessary in the registry 
 stamps ? May it not affect the registry stamp ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. As I now see it it would only require, as I said in re- 
 lation to other matters, an extension and enlargement. Some change, 
 however, might be necessary as to the manner of transmission and 
 safeguarding in the course of transmission. 
 
PARCEL POST. 21 
 
 The Chairman. Would you advocate the registering of parcels 
 of all weights to the limit allowed for the same price as indicated in 
 the letters or small parcels, or what changes would you make, 
 assuming the limit to be increased to 11 pounds ? 
 
 Mr. Beitt. I should advocate the registering, but not at the con- 
 ventional fee of 10 cents in all cases. I think the only way to adjust 
 that facility properly would be by a graduated scale. The single 
 schedule is exceedingly convenient and immensely popular and a 
 great aid to the service, but it is a rather inconvenient arrangement 
 when we come to make indemnity and remember that we have to 
 pay the same in every instance, that we only receive the 10 cents 
 whether we have to pay in the case of third and fourth class matter 
 $25, or whether we have to pay $1, or in the case of first-class matter 
 whether we have to pay $50 or $1. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, but the registration fee is purely an 
 insurance fee, isn't it ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. It is purely an insurance fee. That is what I am 
 addressing myself to. 
 
 The Chairman. Consequently, you figure that with the increased 
 risk there should be an increased premium ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. I think that is in line with insurance generally. I say, 
 as a general proposition, I do not pretend to say that it should be so 
 adjusted as to meet everything that might come within that purview. 
 
 The Chairman. But suppose that your registration fee was based 
 on the maximum insurance that the Government permitted on any 
 article itself, immaterial as to the difference of weight? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. It is immaterial, then, as to the actual value, if 
 the Government's liability ceases at a certain maximum margin? 
 
 Mi'. Britt. Tf you have but one fee, and that fee is based upon the 
 maximum liability, of course you have nothing more to ask by way 
 of indemnity to yourself; but basing your fee upon the maximum 
 liability, you have probably overcharged in those instances in which 
 only small liability was incurred and only a small reimbursement 
 would be possible. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any distinction between first, second, 
 third, and fourth class matter now as to liability with a registered 
 fee stamp attached? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes; the maximum liability in the case of first-class 
 mail matter is $50. It may be made $100, under the statute, by the 
 Postmaster General. The maximum liability of third and fourth 
 class matter is $25. 
 
 The Chairman. But the fee is the same ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. But the fee is 10 cents in all cases. 
 
 The Chairman. I assume, then, that the present fee — the natural 
 deduction is that 10 cents is a safe insurance on a $50 liability ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. I was not making an objection to the present fee, but 
 I was considering your proposition of enlarged parcel-post facili- 
 ties by which the Government would receive packages of far greater 
 value, probably; but if you retain your present liability only, of 
 course there would be no necessity to increase the fee, but, I assume, 
 with the enlarged facilities you would enlarge your liability to the 
 mailer. 
 
22 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I don't see that that is a necessary circum- 
 stance. 
 
 Mr. Britt. It would be a matter of policy. 
 
 The Chairman. Wouldn't it be perfectly easy to arrange for an 
 insurance, say, of 10 cents for $50 liability, 20 cents for $100 liability, 
 and so on? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Of Government insurance? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; or some schedule to be worked out. 
 
 Mr. Britt. Certainly. 
 
 The Chairman. But the volume of increase of fourth- class mail 
 matter would not affect the matter at all. It would simply be the 
 question of what liability the Government assumed and nothing else. 
 
 Mr. Britt. Certainly; if you want to increase your activities and 
 increase your indemnity, of course, though you would consider the 
 question whether you ought to increase your responsibilities for it. 
 
 The Chairman. State the various classes of mail matter and the 
 rates charged for the transmission of each. 
 
 Mr. Britt. First-class, second-class, third-class, and fourth-class 
 matter. The rate of postage on first-class matter is 2 cents an ounce 
 or fraction thereof. That on second-class matter, mailed by pub- 
 lishers to subscribers and as samples, and by news agents to sub- 
 scribers and other news agents, is 1 cent a pound, except as follows : 
 Copies mailed to subscribers residing in the county where the publi- 
 cations are printed, in whole or in part, and published, when not 
 addressed for delivery at a letter-carrier ofEce, go free; on news- 
 papers, other than weeklies, regardless of weight, and periodicals 
 not exceeding 2 ounces in weight, mailed at city letter-carrier 
 offices for local delivery by carriers, the rate is 1 cent a copy ; and on 
 periodicals exceeding 2 ounces in weight, mailed at city letter-carrier 
 offices for local delivery by carriers, 2 cents a copy. When the pub- 
 lication goes by rural carrier, emanating from a free-delivery office, 
 it is also, under the construction of the Assistant Attorney General 
 for the Post Office Department, chargeable with the rate of 1 cent 
 a pound, or the cent a pound rate. Newspapers and periodicals 
 mailed by individuals are charged at the rate of 1 cent for each 4 
 ounces or fraction thereof, stamps affixed. I believe those are all of 
 the various rates of the second-class matter. The third-class matter 
 is charged at the rate of 1 cent for each 2 ounces or fraction thereof. 
 In bulk, 8 cents a pound. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any maximum limit of weight? 
 
 Mr. Britt. The maximum iimit for matter of the first, third, and 
 fourth classes is 4 pounds, except as to single books and public docu- 
 ments. Fourth-class matter is charged at the rate of 1 cent an ounce 
 with a maximum weight of 4 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. What, if anything, would be necessary or advis- 
 able in the way of a new classification of mail matter if the present 
 parcel-post system were increased in scope, by raising the weight 
 limit to 11 pounds and reducing the postage to, say, an average rate 
 of 10 cents a pound? 
 
 Mr. Britt. In my judgment there are properly but four classes of 
 mail, or need be but four classes, and that they are reducible to 
 three; that the present classification of merchandise as fourth-class 
 matter is proper, and the extension of that facility would not change 
 the character of the classification. 
 
PABCEL POST. 23 
 
 The Chairman. You say reducible to three? 
 
 Mr. Beitt. Yes ; the second and the third are reducible to one. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you combine the second and the third 
 and leave the fourth as it is now ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Not immediately, but when second-class mail matter is 
 by the act of Congress required to pay the cost of its carriage and 
 handling and classification, which cost in my judgment it does not 
 now pay, then it will be in the attitude of printed matter, and the 
 demands as to the sundry things which the statute now requires be- 
 fore it can be admitted would not any longer rightly be insisted 
 upon, as we do not insist upon any of those in circulars and books, 
 but we simply accept them as third-class printed matter and that 
 is all. 
 
 Then I think all the sundry and divers requirements as to the 
 manner of printing and preparing and contents would be dropped, 
 and there would no longer be a necessity for a distinction between 
 second and third class matter, and the three great classes of mail 
 matter would consequently be reduced to three instead of four, and 
 I would keep letters and cards as they now are, and newspapers and 
 all periodicals, printed circulars, I would make -them one, and mer- 
 chandise the third, but I wish it clearly understood that I would 
 not favor that under present conditions, under the present postage 
 rates. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean under the present rate? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Under the present rate. 
 
 The Chairman. You do not believe it feasible to combine the 
 third and fourth class matter, or desirable? 
 
 Mr. Britt. I do not believe it desirable as a matter of public 
 policy, for this reason: If the Congress desires to still follow its 
 immemorial policy of encouraging public intelligence, it ought to 
 concede something to books and pamphlets, which are great means 
 of education, but if it is designed to place them as merchandise, 
 then I would not think it would be impossible. 
 
 The Chairman. Then in your mind there is no distinction between 
 a newspaper, a magazine, and a book, so far as the publicity of the 
 general information to the general public is concerned? 
 
 Mr. Britt. There is not any difference. 
 
 The Chairman. They should be treated entirely, not separately, 
 but unitedly. 
 
 Mr. Britt. There is not any general and well- drawn distinction 
 between them ; they have a broad and general common purpose, that 
 of conveying printed intelligence — the newspaper, the periodical, 
 and the book. 
 
 The Chairman. And it is your personal opinion that their func- 
 tions for the general welfare of the Nation are equal, and that they 
 should be treated as one classification and not separated ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Well, I want the qualification that I gave at first put 
 in there, Senator, with very great care. I say when the rates of post- 
 age are such as to require the publisher to pay the cost of transpor- 
 tation — it is not yet, but when it does come — I can see no necessity 
 of any longer requiring any particular way or manner in which he 
 should prepare his newspaper, and that then it would become simply 
 printed matter, as the book and the pamphlet are, and they would all 
 
24 PARCEL. POST. 
 
 be classed as one body for public mailing purposes, one physical body 
 for public mailing purposes. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, is it your opinion that the Government 
 should treat it purely as a business proposition on the sole question 
 of cost of service and receipts ? 
 
 Mr. Beitt. My opinion is that each class of mail matter, whatever 
 the Congress decides that it shall be, shall have a rate of postage 
 levied upon it that has in mind the cost of the services which the 
 Government renders to it. 
 
 The Chairman. The cost and efficiency? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes, sir; and I think that we should have fixed rates 
 and classes of mail matter. There will always be some particular 
 classes of service that can not be self-sustaining. I do not wish to 
 go upon record as saying that every act done would pay, but that the 
 rate levied for each grade or class of mail matter should contemplate 
 in the end self-support. That is my view. 
 
 The Chairman. In that connection, in your opinion is it possible 
 for the Government or anybody else to secure absolute information 
 as to the actual cost of service, the actual receipts for same, taking 
 into consideration indirect benefits that might accrue? 
 
 Mr. Britt. It is not possible to, obtain absolute information, but I 
 think it is possible to obtain sufficient information. 
 
 The Chairman. For a determination? 
 
 Mr. Britt. For a basis of congressional action. But very few 
 things of a public nature are absolutely certain, of course, and that 
 is one of the most difficult problems, in my judgment, imaginable. 
 
 The Chairman. Because of the indirect benefit? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Because of the indirect benefit and the various ramifica- 
 tions of the service and the great scope of the country over which it 
 is performed. As I have said, I think it possible to obtain it suffi- 
 ciently closely to make the result a basis of congressional action. 
 
 The Chairman. Under the law has the Postmaster General the ab- 
 solute right of determination as to classification? 
 
 Mr. Britt. The Postmaster General is charged by law with the 
 classification of mail matter. He has the right to classify it. 
 
 The Chairman. He, then, has autocratic power? 
 
 Mr. Britt. No ; he has not autocratic power. Power that has been 
 conferred on him — not autocratic power, but simply ministerial or 
 executive power. 
 
 The Chairman. Who has the right of determination under what 
 classification the various articles come, and is there any appeal from 
 his decision? 
 
 Mr. Britt. The four classes are provided by law, and it is his duty 
 to determine under which of the four classes a particular physical 
 object offered for the mail falls. Many of 'those cases are exceedingly 
 difficult and require a lot of information and the use of discretion on 
 his part or his delegated official. This he does under oath and under 
 his sense of duty, but of course that does not say it is always perfect. 
 
 The Chairman. No ; there is no one who is infallible. 
 
 Mr. Britt. It is like other human agencies. But you ask as to an 
 appeal. You are doubtless familiar with the holdings of the courts 
 for a great many years all along that line, which were strongly to the 
 effect that the administration of a function by an executive officer 
 
PARCEL POST. 25 
 
 must not be interfered with by the courts unless he has abused his 
 discretion, or unless he has misconstrued the law, or done a palpable 
 wrong; but the courts have pretty well gone away from that, and in 
 the holdings in relation to the classification of mail matter for the 
 last 8 or 10 years they have said in effect: "We are unwilling to 
 review the action of an executive officer, because we do not want to 
 interfere with the function of a coordinate branch of the Govern- 
 ment, but if he has missed the law or acted under what is not law, 
 or if he has been guilty of a palpable wrong in the administration of 
 his office, we will review it and reverse it if we feel that we should." 
 At the same time the policy of the courts is manifestly against inter- 
 ference, but they have done it in a number of instances. 
 
 The Chairman. Then I would be glad if you would state briefly 
 the legal limitations that bound the scope of his action in this matter. 
 
 Mr. Britt. The legal limitations that bind him are his most in- 
 formed judgment of what the law means, the execution of which is 
 committed to his hands. If its administration requires the gather- 
 ing of facts, these facts must be gathered in good faith and duly 
 considered according to their respective weights, and if the case 
 is a close one and the classification is not apparent, it is his duty 
 to decide it in the light of his best judgment, as.it is the duty of 
 other persons to decide those difficult questions committed to their 
 charge. His limitations in the broader sense are the limitations of 
 the law which are imposed upon all executive officials. If 1 can go 
 into detail in any particular thing, Senator, I will be delighted to 
 do so. 
 
 The Chairman. No; I catch your idea. Will you kindly describe 
 the method you follow in the redemption of stamps and stamped 
 paper, from the Postmaster General, from the department, and by 
 postmasters from the public? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Well, I believe I have already given the limitation on 
 the redemption of stamped paper from the public, which is very 
 limited. The postmaster makes his claim, which claim must be 
 specific and definite, and must be well founded and honestly founded. 
 That goes to the Bureau of the Third Assistant Postmaster General, 
 •and is committed to the Division of Bedemption of Stamps, where 
 it is considered in detail, and considered from its respective bearings, 
 and if the claim iS established, the spoiled, injured, or damaged 
 stamped paper is taken up and finally destroyed, and new stamped 
 paper is issued in its place, of all of which a record is kept. 
 
 The Chairman. Have the postmasters themselves any right to 
 redeem injured stamps? 
 
 Mr. Britt. They redeem under the direction of the department. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you briefly describe the process ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes. That applies to stamped envelopes and postal 
 cards and other stamped paper; for instance, A, who has ordered 
 2,000 stamped envelopes of a certain denomination or specification, 
 receives them with poorly embossed stamps, or sorry paper ; he makes 
 his complaint to the department, sometimes directly, but through 
 the postmaster, usually. 
 
 The Chairman. The local postmaster ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. The local postmaster. 
 
 The Chairman. What discretionary power has he in a case of that 
 kind? That is all I want to get at, 
 
26 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Britt. He does not use discretion. That case comes to the 
 department, and he is directed to make the redemption, and he does 
 so, because we keep the record of the manufacture, sale, and dis- 
 tribution. , ... , ,, 
 
 The Chairman. Then he himself can not redeem without the 
 authorization for that particular case from the department itself i 
 
 Mr. Britt. The rule is that he does not. If he did redem in a case 
 that was made apparent, no objection would be made to it, but the 
 rule is he does not redeem. The redemption is made through the 
 Division of Redemption. , 
 
 The Chairman. "Would there be any change advisable in the pres- 
 ent method of redemption if the present parcel-post system were 
 enlarged in scope? 
 
 Mr. Britt. I can not at this time conceive of any special change 
 that would be demanded by that policy other than that of enlarge- 
 ment and extension. 
 
 The Chairman. That will be all, Mr. Britt, but if there are any 
 general remarks you have to make covering this subject, I would 
 be glad for you to give them for the benefit of the committee. 
 
 Mr. Britt. I would like in a few words to state the Postmaster 
 General's views as to the parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. If you will pardon me, we would like to get your 
 views, for we expect to get the Postmaster General's views direct. 
 
 Mr. Britt. I will be glad to do so. I mentioned that out of proper 
 consideration for him. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; I appreciate that. 
 
 Mr. Britt. I am thoroughly, thoroughly — I wish to emphasize that 
 word — in favor of the immediate institution of a parcel-post policy. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, the enlargement of the present system ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. I might qualify and amplify right now. I do not 
 believe it would be wise, if at all possible, to simultaneously and 
 generally fit the system at one time upon the whole country, for 
 reasons that I will give in a few words, but I do not believe it would 
 take a long course of preparation and experimentation to bring about 
 a general parcel post, and I favor a general parcel post as early as 
 it can be instituted with safety and with economy to the interests of" 
 the Government and the people, but there are reasons which exist, 
 in my judgment, which forbid an absolute and general simultaneous 
 parcel-post policy. 
 
 The Chairman. May I ask you to mention the reasons ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. The extent of the country and the enormous outlay of 
 money required by the postal service is the greatest difficulty. The 
 country contains nearly three and a half million square miles and is 
 a sparsely settled country ; we have but 30 people to the square mile ; 
 that is to say, if all the people of this country were placed at equal 
 distance apart, we would hardly be in communicating distance. I will 
 show that bearing in a moment. The European countries that have 
 established it have the advantage of being close together, which is a 
 great advantage. The English people exist to the number of 589, 
 I believe, to the square mile, while we have 30 ; the Germans have 360, 
 while we have 30; Holland has 490, while we have 30; and Belgium 
 519, while we have 30. I am speaking of that to show that in a small 
 country, where the people are all together, the administration of a 
 
PARCEL POST. 27 
 
 parcel-post system is easier in many particulars, and much more 
 feasible than in a great country where the people are so sparsely 
 settled. 
 
 For instance, if it is proposed to send a parcel of 11 pounds to a 
 person living remotely in some of the hollows and ravines and val- 
 leys of the mountain sections, it would be an exceedingly difficult task 
 to do it. We will ultimately come to it and we should come to it, in 
 my judgment, and we should come to it as rapidly as we can, and 
 we ought to commence our experimentation now, and I think we 
 ought to commence with the rural routes. I think we ought also to 
 commence experimenting with the free- delivery carriers in the cities ; 
 that we ought to commence laying our plans for the transportation 
 of these numerous parcels, and I think they will be numerous, and 
 that the work of each day ought to be built in the light of the ex- 
 perience of yesterday, just as we built the rural free-delivery system 
 15 years ago. At that time many people were afraid of the rural 
 routes; they did not have much confidence in our rural routes, but 
 we started with three routes over in West Virginia, and some of the 
 people were very much afraid of it, particularly in the South, where 
 I live, but it went on, and we built to-day in the light of yesterday, 
 and now, as I recall the statistics, we have 1,500,000 square miles of 
 the United States covered by these routes, more than a million and 
 a quarter of miles of routes in extension, and nearly 42,000 men car- 
 rying the mails daily over the country, and possibly between twenty 
 and twenty- five millions of people are supplied daily with the mails, 
 and it is a tremendous success, if I may express myself in that way ; 
 I will at least say a very great success, but it could not have been 
 instituted in a day, and the proposition of carrying the parcels that 
 the trading people of this country will put into the custody of the 
 postal system is a tremendous problem, and one. in my judgment, 
 requiring serious thought and careful movements, but one which we 
 can do and which we should do, and which we should commence to 
 do now, and commence in the surest way. 
 
 My own view is that we should commence with the rural routes; 
 that we should commence almost at the same time with some large 
 city delivery in experimenting; that we should go to studying the 
 transportation in relation to this enlarged parcel post, and in a 
 careful, cautious way, in order that the Congress might have the 
 benefit of information obtained in the most accurate way. I think 
 that next year we would enlarge upon this year and next year upon 
 that year until Avithin a few years any citizen of the United States 
 can mail his parcel with as much hope that it will reach its destina- 
 tion as he has when he mails a letter to any part of the United States, 
 up to 11 pounds, and if we want to we can go on as they have in 
 Germany to 110 pounds, and in Austria, as I recall, to 140 pounds, 
 Italy 11 pounds, as well as 22 pounds in France. I do not think it 
 should necessarily be limited to 11 pounds when our system is once 
 established. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you gone carefully over the operations in 
 the countries already enjoying the broad parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Britt. I have gone 6ver them only limitedly, Senator, and 
 that at rather long range, and not with the most recent data be- 
 fore me. 
 
28 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Has there been any data in the Post Office Depart- 
 ment brought down to date, so far as practical, as to the actual oper- 
 ations of any other countries enjoying a general parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Beitt. The available official information before the depart- 
 ment at this time consists of such annual reports as we get from 
 foreign postal establishments, and not all of those are up to the current 
 year, but about the 1st of the month of October the Postmaster 
 General forwarded letters to 16 of the principal countries of the 
 world, letters that were prepared in my bureau with very great care, 
 and on his suggestion and improvement, embodying a call for what 
 he believed and what I believed to be every possible angle of infor- 
 mation on the parcel-post system in those countries. As I recall it, 
 we put in some twenty-odd inclusive questions, asking for everything. 
 We have not received replies from those letters, but when we do 
 receive them, if there is proper reciprocal international courtesy, I 
 am hoping that we shall have full and up-to-date information. 
 
 The Chairman. That is very interesting. Might I ask you if you 
 would favor the committee with a copy of the letter in order that we 
 could see just what information has been requested? 
 
 Mr. Britt. I will be delighted to request it of the Postmaster Gen- 
 eral. They are his letters and not the bureau's letters. I am sure he 
 will be pleased to furnish them, and I will bring the matter to his 
 attention immediately. 
 
 The Chairman. If you would kindly do so, and send up a copy, I 
 will be much obliged. 
 
 (Copy of the letter referred to and of a letter from the Postmaster 
 General transmitting it follows:) 
 
 Post Office Department, 
 Office of the Postmaster General, 
 Washington, D. C, November 8, 1911. 
 Hon. Jonathan Bourne, jr., 
 
 Chairman Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads, 
 
 United States Senate, Washington, D. C. 
 My Dear Senator : The Third Assistant Postmaster General informs me that 
 at the hearing before your committee on the 7th instant, you requested, for the 
 information of the committee, a copy of my letter of October 5, 1911, addressed 
 to the post office departments of foreign countries asking for information on 
 the subject of the parcel post, and I inclose you herewith the desired copy. 
 Tours, very truly, 
 
 Frank H. Hitchcock, 
 
 Postmaster General. 
 
 October 5, 1911. 
 Postmaster General of the Commonwealth of Australia, 
 
 Melbourne, Australia. 
 Sir: The Post Office Department of the United States is considering the es- 
 tablishment of a domestic parcel-post system and has recommended to the 
 Congress the necessary legislation for that purpose, but not having hitherto had 
 such a system, its experience in that behalf being limited to the handling of 
 a comparatively small number of parcels dispatched to foreign countries under 
 postal conventions with the United States, it desir.es to be informed of the 
 practical operations of the system in those countries where it has been estab- 
 lished for a sufficient length of time to warrant the formation of a proper esti- 
 mate of its merits and the development of the best policy for its successful 
 management, and I, therefore, have the honor to request that you will be good 
 enough to furnish me, at the earliest possible date, for presentation to Congress 
 on the fourth day of next December, such information in relation to your 
 parcel post as is indicated by the following paragraphs: 
 
PARCEL POST. 29 
 
 1. Date of original establishment of the parcel-post system ;' also a copy of 
 the law or executive order under which it was established. 
 
 2. Description of the bureau or administrative agency by which the system is 
 conducted. 
 
 3. What are the official names and salaries of the various officers engaged 
 in the conduct of the parcel post, and what is the total number of such officers? 
 
 4. The number of employees required in the conduct .of the service, the 
 classes into which they are divided, the number in each class, together with 
 their compensation. 
 
 5. What is the annual appropriation for the maintenance of the system? 
 
 6. What was the cost of the system for the last fiscal year, and what 
 revenue was derived from it? 
 
 7. If practicable, give separately the amount expended for salaries, for 
 equipment, and for transportation. 
 
 8. What is the average cost by the piece of handling and carrying parcels? 
 
 9. The rates of postage charged on packages of various weights and for 
 different distances. 
 
 10. Restrictions as to kind of articles carried, their weight, volume, dimen- 
 sions, wrapping, etc. 
 
 11. Method of handling packages at (1) office of dispatch, including collection ; 
 (2) while in transit; and (3) at office of address, including delivery. 
 
 12. Kind of equipment used in handling, transporting, and delivering parcel- 
 post matter. 
 
 13. Describe mode of packing, bagging, and boxing for transmission by rail- 
 way and by private conveyance. 
 
 14. What indemnity or insurance is provided against loss or damage to 
 parcels? 
 
 15. Does the operation of the parcel-post system interfere in any manner 
 with the expeditious handling of letters and other mail matter, and if so, to 
 what extent? 
 
 16. Does the conduct of the parcel post in connection with the general mail 
 service effect any economy in, or increase the efficiency of, such other service? 
 
 17. What other services are rendered in connection with the parcel-post sys- 
 tem, and what is their effect upon the cost of the parcel-post service. 
 
 18. What changes have been made in your laws and regulations as the result 
 of experience since the inauguration of the system? 
 
 19. By what particular classes of people is the parcel-post service most ex- 
 tensively used? It is especially desired to know to what extent persons re- 
 siding in the rural districts of your country avail themselves of the service, 
 and the manner in which such business is handled if treated differently from 
 that of the urban communities. 
 
 20. Copy of printed instructions to officers of the service in the conduct of 
 the system. 
 
 21. Statistics showing the following: 
 
 (1) Total number of pieces handled; 
 
 (2) Aggregate weight of pieces handled; 
 
 (3) Average weight of a single piece; 
 
 (4) Average distance carried; 
 
 (5) Longest haul in your system; 
 
 (6) Total mileage over which the system is conducted. 
 
 22. Any public documents throwing light on the character, history, and 
 progress of the parcel-post system in your country, especially recent reports of 
 its operations, together with the regulations governing the system, are par- 
 ticularly desired. 
 
 Very respectfully, , 
 
 Postmaster-General. 
 
 Mr. Bbitt. I want to go over other matters, if I am not trespass- 
 ing. 
 
 The Chairman. I will be glad to hear you. 
 
 Mr. Britt. The objection on the part of the country merchant, in 
 my judgment, is the most vociferous and unreasonable objection 
 offered, and is not a valid objection. 
 
 The Chairman. That is very interesting, and I would like to get 
 your viewpoint very much. 
 
30 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Bkitt. Certainly not as to the rural-route service, and, in my 
 judgment, not as to the general service, as to the proposed rural- 
 route service, which, I think, should be one of the things which we 
 should commence with. He would be one of the largest beneficiaries., 
 for it would enable him to bring from the distributing point of the 
 rural route sundry and divers articles that his patrons want that are 
 not kept in his store, and can not be kept, and it would also enable 
 him by his telephone to get trade that he does not now get, and to 
 supply that trade immediately by the parcel post and the rate would 
 be such as both he and his patrons could afford, and the Government 
 could afford it at the same time. 
 
 Now, when we enlarge, as, in my judgment, we shall enlarge, in 
 the light of these minor experiments as we make them, he will lay 
 claim that the large mail-order house will injure him. Well, we must 
 take into consideration the fact that the country people are occupied 
 with the works of their farms and their gardens, and theyare not 
 always going to busy themselves to learn just where in Chicago or 
 New York they could buy an article ; hence they are going to use him 
 pretty largely, as they have always used him, or wish to use him if 
 they could have used him, as their purchasing medium for these 
 small articles. He knows how to take care of himself and he will 
 take care of himself. But even if you were to admit what he con- 
 tends in the final consummation, then he will not be seriously hurt, 
 in my opinion — must we not consider the aggregate together? Are 
 we not obliged in the formulation of public policies to consider spe- 
 cific and individual good only as it constitutes a part of the general 
 good, and only so far as it is a considerable part? 
 
 The Chairman. Considering the greatest good to the greatest 
 number. 
 
 Mr. Bkitt. Exactly. The express companies, who, it is said, are 
 troubled about this proposition, I assume — I do not hold their brief 
 in any way — they are people who can take care of themselves ; I 
 assume that their wounds will be inflicted for the common good and 
 out of great charity they will bear them. 
 
 I will say in regard to their views as to carrying cheaper than the 
 Post Office Department that I do not believe" them. For instance, 
 it was brought before the Postal Commission in New York when 
 the Postmaster General, Mr. Stewart, and myself were there repre- 
 senting the department concerning the second-class mail question, and 
 I on cross-examination, as I recall, was asked this question : " If an 
 express company can take a 50-pbund package in New York and 
 carry it to Kansas City, Mo., 1,250 miles, for 25 cents, and pay 12£ 
 cents to the railroad company as royalty, whv is it the Post Office 
 Department can not make money carrying mail matter at the rate 
 of 1 cent a pound? " I said in the first place the express companies 
 do not do that in any general way. If they have done it in a few 
 instances, they have done it for business purposes, which to my 
 judgment are apparent, but they have only done it limitedly; if they 
 carry 50 pounds of second-class mail matter from New York to 
 Kansas City, that 50 pounds might consist of 1,000 separate news- 
 papers, easily so, for it would be 50 times 16 ounces. They carry that 
 gross package to Kansas City, set it off at the station, and it is re- 
 ceived in gross. The postal establishment carries it there at a cent 
 
PAKCEL POST. 31 
 
 a pound, and takes each of these 1,000 newspapers out, through the 
 hands of the carriers at that place, and carries them possibly to 1,000 
 people in Kansas City, Mo., and my reply was that the great service 
 which was rendered was that rendered by the Post Office Department 
 in 1,000 different acts in carrying that 50 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. As against one act? 
 
 Mr. Beitt. As against one act. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the proportionate expense of collection 
 and distribution of mail ? How do you segregate it as to transpor- 
 tation and the postal function of collecting and distributing? 
 
 Mr. Britt. In reference to the different classes of mail matter? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Britt. Well, the Post Office Department has, on a few occa- 
 sions, at one time under direct congressional authority, made an 
 actual weighing of all the mails transmitted, and an accounting in 
 connection with it; and at that time there was a serious and earnest 
 endeavor to try to ascertain accurately, if possible, but by estimation 
 if you must, the amount of services performed in relation to each 
 class of mail matter and to keep a record of it, and we have been 
 limited since those times to extensions and ratios derived from those 
 actual weighings and such services as were performed at certain post 
 offices for certain articles. The number of pieces we mail is nearly 
 1 5,000,000,000 annually, and of course it is thrown in and trans- 
 ported and delivered, and there can not be any record kept of it; 
 from its very nature the task would be impossible, well nigh. 
 
 The Chairman. As I understand you, broadly figured, it costs two 
 or three times as much. The figures I have seen have varied, esti- 
 mates of 75 per cent for collection and distribution and 25 per cent 
 for transportation, and estimates of 80 per cent for collection and 
 distribution and 20 per cent for rail transportation. 
 
 Mr. Britt. Well, that is a problem of the Second Assistant Post- 
 master General, and he has figures on all those segregations, and he 
 will be pleased to give them. They are not my problems and I am 
 not so familiar with them, but you have the fundamental principle 
 upon which they are based., One more word in regard to the express 
 companies. Of course we all have our views of them, just as we have 
 of other public utilities, and we should always hasten to give them 
 credit for public service, and they do a great public service, and, of 
 course, should not accept anything they do in any other light than 
 in what it actually is. I believe the Post Office Establishment should 
 perform the postal service and should perform it all, and should make 
 preparations for it, for three reasons : First, it can do it more cheaply 
 than any of the express companies can do it, or will do it. I mean 
 as a whole ; while certainly they can take up certain pieces of freight 
 at New York, and bring it down to Washington cheaper than the 
 mail could do it, when they take the proposition of New York, San 
 Francisco, Alaska, Manila, and generally, they won't do it; in my 
 judgment, they can't do it. 
 
 The Chairman. Then am I to understand you favor governmental 
 monopoly up to the weight limit established and the classification that 
 the Government says that it will carry as postage or parcel matter? 
 
 Mr. Britt. We have at this time a Government monopoly of first- 
 class matter, and, in my judgment, we should have a monopoly of 
 all classes of mail matter under' proper laws and regulations ; that is, 
 
32 PARCEL. POST. 
 
 our rates and service should be made such as to give the Government, 
 par excellence, a, monopoly; not an enforced legal monopoly, but a 
 monopoly in effect. 
 
 The Chairman. That establishment you believe would greatly in- 
 crease the gross receipts of the Government and dimmish the cost of 
 operation ? . 
 
 Mr. Britt. I say so 'for three reasons : First, we can do it more 
 cheaply; secondly, we can do it— when I say " we " I mean the people 
 aggregately, which is the Government— we can do it more expedi- 
 tiously than any of the express companies, all told ; and, thirdly, we 
 can do it more safely and efficiently. I believe the Government should 
 take a monopoly, through liberal rates and efficient service, of its 
 mail carriage ; it is one of the ways that the people can perform one 
 of their own necessary functions through their duly constituted 
 agents in a cheap, safe, and expeditious way. I am expressing my 
 own views of the matter. 
 
 The Chairman. That is what I understand. Now, assuming that 
 your ideas were adopted and the parcel post enlarged and applied to 
 the rural deliveries, what would be the weight that you would recom- 
 mend, the maximum weight and the rate of postage? Have you 
 worked that out at all? 
 
 Mr. Britt. I have ideas on it. 
 
 The Chairman. That is what I mean. 
 
 Mr. Britt. I have not discussed it at any time with the Post- 
 master General — that is, the question of rates — and in that particular 
 I would assume to speak only for myself. 
 
 The Chairman. That is what we want. 
 
 Mr. Britt. I think, as I said in the beginning, that each class of 
 mail matter as a whole should be self-sustaining. These parcels will 
 be a part of the fourth-class matter, I assume, and the fourth-class 
 matter should be self-sustaining. It is now, we think. 
 
 The Chairman. More than self-sustaining? 
 
 Mr. Britt. More than self-sustaining now. 
 
 The Chairman. As. I understand, the estimate is that it costs the 
 Government 12 cents a pound under the present system ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. I think, according to the best estimate we can make, 
 that during the fiscal year 1911 the Government saved or made on 
 fourth-class matter between six and seven million dollars. 
 
 The Chairman. Which would be about 25 per cent profit, would it 
 not? 
 
 Mr. Britt. I would not like to speak as to the per cent; that would 
 be a matter of calculation. 
 
 The Chairman. But, as I understand, the estimate is that fourth- 
 class matter is carried at an expense to the Government of about 12 
 cents a pound? 
 
 Mr. Brut. Less than 12 cents a pound. 
 
 The Chairman. And the receipts are 16 cents a pound? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Yes; that is mathematical. To finish what I started. 
 In the institution or inauguration of the policy for the rural route, 
 I think those rates should be much smaller than the 16-cent rate. The 
 distance is short, the service is not very complex, the question of 
 classification is well-nigh eliminated, as the classification is automatic, 
 practically, and the service will be performed mainly with the pres- 
 ent equipment and with the present service and under the present 
 
PARCEL POST. 33 
 
 compensation. At some of the places there will not have to be addi- 
 tional equipment and additional service, but I think the rural rate 
 should be lower than the present fourth-class rate and — while I do not 
 care to commit myself to any definite schedule of rates — speaking 
 for myself, I will say I am not sure that we could not have a rate of 
 5 cents for the first pound, with an increase of 2 cents for the second 
 and 2 on the third and so on. But any rate could be graduated. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, as I understand you, you would favor two 
 rates, a general rate and a special rate for rural deliveries which 
 would be lower than the general rate ? 
 
 Mr. Beitt. I would favor two rates. Understand me, I am talk- 
 ing at this time about the rural rate basis for the parcel post, which 
 means that a parcel is not carried any farther from one place on a 
 rural route to the end of it, or some place which is on it, or from the 
 original point of distribution of this rural route, to some place else on 
 it, and for that service I maintain that the rate should not be so high 
 as the general rate, for reasons which are apparent from the nature 
 of the service. As I have said, it would be experimental, and, I 
 think, the Postmaster General should be authorized under law to fix 
 those rates, because by fixing them for that purpose I think he could 
 get the benefit of experimentation within certain limitations better 
 than he could by fixed rates. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, if Congress worked out a plan which, ac- 
 cording to its development, seemed feasible, practicable, and desir- 
 able and instructions were issued by Congress to the Postmaster Gen- 
 eral to make preparations for inauguration of this enlarged scope of 
 operation of the present system, what is the criticism on that ? 
 
 Mr. Britt. Of course, it is all right. There is not any objection to 
 that. I assume that Congress in attempting to inaugurate this system 
 would try to give it such elasticity as to permit it to accomplish its 
 purpose. That would be the part of wisdom. Then I should think 
 that there should be experimentation with the free delivery in the 
 cities. One of the important considerations will be, when we have 
 our general system, what does it cost to take the package from the 
 post office in, say, Xew York and deliver it to the average delivery of 
 the city of New York ? That will be one of the great questions which 
 we want to determine. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, isn't there also a question of the indirect 
 profit in the way of increased first-class postage in the way of order- 
 ing or acknowledging ? Also money orders ? Would there be an in- 
 direct profit there of quite an appreciable amount, presumably? Of 
 course, this is all a matter of opinion. 
 
 Mr. Britt. Certainly. The indirect accruing of postage from these 
 operations is a considerable factor, but in considering it we must 
 always consider how much increased cost of equipment and service 
 will be in connection with it, and what we have over and above that, 
 of course, would be a gain, which is considerable. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, the estimate of less than 12 cents a pound 
 for actual cost of fourth-class matter during the fiscal year 1911 does 
 not take into consideration at all any credit through any other classi- 
 fication for first or second class matter which we have never had 
 given. 
 
 21845— vol 1—12 3 
 
84 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Bbitt. I don't say we could base anything on the amount that 
 accrued indirectly. 
 
 The Chairman. It is simply given so much receipts direct and 
 so much expenses direct. 
 
 Mr. Beitt. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. That is all. 
 
 Mr. Britt. That is all. I have earnestly sought information on 
 that line in relation to the second-class mail matter, and I have had 
 publishers come to me and make interesting statements which no 
 doubt were true, but they were so limited and pitched upon such a 
 small scale they did not count anything in the aggregate, though 
 we know that second-class mail matter does induce a large amount 
 of first, third, and fourth class matter. 
 
 The Chairman. But you are absolutely convinced in your own 
 mind that the Government to-day carries or did carry during the 
 year 1911 fourth-class mail at less than 12 cents a pound cost to the 
 Government? 
 
 Mr. Britt. I did not say I am absolutely convinced. I say that 
 is the estimate we make from all the facts before us — that it did not 
 cost as much as 9 cents. Of course, I can not speak of any of these 
 things with a moral or mathematical certainty. I wish further to 
 state that all of these several statements and remarks made by me 
 are according to my best judgment and information, and any mat- 
 ter of material fact stated is stated correctly according to my present 
 understanding and recollection; and if it is not correct, and I have 
 afterwards determined from inquiry that I have made any mistake 
 in any matter, I wish an opportunty to make any correction that 
 may be necessary. 
 
 The Chairman. Certainly. You may have such opportunity. 
 
 Mr. Britt. I will say, in conclusion, that any further information 
 that I can give at any time will be gladly furnished. 
 
 The Chairman. Thanks, very much. 
 
 (Whereupon at 1.05 o'clock p. m. the hearing adjourned.) 
 
THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 9, 1911. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), and Senator 
 Joseph L. Bristow. 
 
 The Chairman. I will state that in order to economize time I will 
 ask you to first reply to questions 1 am about to ask, and afterwards 
 I will be very glad to listen to any statement you desire to make, 
 which will be or value to the committee in its inquiry. It is neces- 
 sary that you be sworn, Dr. Grandfield. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF HON. CHAELES P. GRANDFIELD, FIRST ASSISTANT 
 POSTMASTER GENERAL. 
 
 (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Kindly state your age and present position in the 
 Post Office Department ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Age, 50; First Assistant Postmaster General. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you occupied that position ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Since February, 1908. 
 
 The Chairman. Please state, as well as you can from memory, the 
 total length of your service in the Post Office Department, designat- 
 ing the positions you have held and the length of time you have 
 served in each position. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I was appointed a clerk in the office of the First 
 Assistant Postmaster General in August, 1885, at $1,000 per annum, 
 and was promoted from time to time. I was made Assistant 
 Superintendent of the Division of Salaries and Allowances, at $2,000, 
 about 1905 or 1906. I was appointed chief clerk in the office of the 
 First Assistant Postmaster General about 1900, I think, or 1901. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Are you certain as to the first date ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. In 1895 or 1896. When was it the Koosevelt 
 administration began ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. The Roosevelt administration — that is, the first 
 administration — began in 1901, wasn't it? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. It was, then, about 1905 that I was appointed 
 chief clerk in the office of the First Assistant Postmaster General. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, as I understand it, you have had 26 years 
 experience in the Post Office Department ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Are the stamps now canceled mostly by hand or 
 by machine ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Only in the larger offices by machines — I think 
 about 1,700 offices have canceling machines, and a large number of 
 stations — that is, there are about 1,700 separate offices that have 
 machines, not only in the main offices, but in the stations. 
 
 The Chairman. Are the canceling machines run by hand or by 
 power ? 
 
 35 
 
36 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Most of them are run by electric power. We 
 have about 200 hand machines in the service. 
 
 The Chairman. About how many different makes of power ma- 
 chines and how many different makes of hand canceling machines 
 are there in the service ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think we hare contracts with five separate com- 
 panies, and each of the three larger companies has two or three dif- 
 ferent types of machines. For instance, the International Postal 
 Supply Co., of New York, has the largest contract. This company 
 furnishes about 300 rapid automatic canceling machines. Each ma- 
 chine has a capacity of between 30,000 and 40,000 per hour. 
 
 The Chairman. Are they all about equal in efficiency ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfibld. They are all exactly of the same type. The dif- 
 ference in speed depends, as a rule, upon the motor. Motors of the 
 same horsepower do not always give the same speed. 
 
 The Chairman. The point I want to get at is why there were three 
 different kinds of machines. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I was speaking of one particular company's ma- 
 chine. This company has three separate types of machines. The 
 first type is a high-power machine, and has a capacity of from 30,000 
 to 40,000 per hour. They have a machine that has a capacity of from 
 15,000 to 25,000 an hour, then a hand-power machine that has a ca- 
 pacity of 8,000 or 10,000 per hqur. 
 
 The Chairman. So that your selection and installation depends 
 entirely upon the volume of business in the office ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. That is true. We have heretofore, by making 
 contracts with different manufacturers, endeavored to bring about 
 competition. We have recently advertised for an exclusive contract, 
 the acceptance of which would have the effect of saving considerable 
 money, but would stifle competition. We have a proposal now — sev- 
 eral proposals from all the companies. The bids were opened last 
 week, and probably, as a result of that advertisement, we will be able 
 to award an exclusive contract, if the department thinks it advisable. 
 
 The Chairman. Upon much better terms to the Government, you 
 mean? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes; I should say it would save $500,000 on a 
 four-year contract. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it necessary, even in the largest offices, to cancel 
 some of the stamps by hand? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes; bulky packages and circular mail; first- 
 class mail can be run through a canceling machine to advantage ; but 
 bulky packages, anything more than a quarter of an inch in thick- 
 ness, clogs up the machine, and the stamps on them are usually 
 stamped by hand. 
 
 The Chairman. About what proportion of the mail is canceled by 
 hand? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. The number of pieces? I suppose a verv small 
 proportion. 
 
 The Chairman. Just the percentage, I should say, estimated on 
 pieces. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I should say in the larger offices not more than 
 1 or 2 per cent; something like that. I have never had any figures 
 made. 
 
PARCEL POST. 37 
 
 Senator Bristow. You think 1 or 2 per cent of the pieces would be 
 canceled by hand? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Hardly that ; no, Senator. I never thought much 
 about the matter, but, of course, a very small percentage. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I should think one-tenth of 1 per cent. I was 
 only guessing. That is in very, very large offices. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. It is only the second-class mail sent at the tran- 
 sient rate and the packages that would have to be canceled by hand, 
 because this mail is bulky. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I think, Mr. Chairman, it would be interesting 
 for the doctor to give us the exact percentage, if he can, in the first- 
 class offices. Is it available? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I doubt very much whether it is available, but a 
 very close estimate could be made upon inquiry at two or three 
 offices like New York, Washington, or Chicago. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Covering the first-class offices, if you can. 1 
 
 The Chairman. We would like to have that collated and sent in. 
 Now, under a parcel-post law — that is, taking and increasing the 
 scope of the present parcel post by fourth-class matter — would you 
 suggest that printed labels be furnished, stamps to be affixed to such 
 labels and canceled before the labels are attached to the packages, or 
 would you think it advisable to cancel the stamps directly on the 
 package, as is done at present? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think, as the parcel post would probably be 
 used by a very large number of people, it would be much more con- 
 venient to the people to use stamps. 
 
 The Chairman. Would they be canceled as the packages were pre- 
 sented or collected, or canceled after the packages were received in 
 the office? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Canceled just as thejr are now. 
 
 The Chairman. At the present time? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. There is another inquiry I would like to make in 
 regard to the canceling of these packages by hand in first-class offices. 
 Would you have also an estimate as to the difference in the cost of 
 canceling in these large offices by hand and by machinery of the 
 various packages? 
 
 The Chairman. That in addition to the data you previously asked 
 for? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 1 
 
 The Chairman. If the stamps were canceled directly on the parcel, 
 would there be danger of injuring the contents of the parcels if the 
 contents were of a fragile nature? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No; I think not. 
 
 The Chairman. In an enlarged parcel-post system would you 
 suggest that the sender be required to bring his package to the post- 
 office counter, or would you advise collection from his residence? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think the present system of collecting mail from 
 street letter boxes and package boxes might be continued. 
 
 The Chairman. Amplified? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. If the law provided for a collection service, would 
 you advise a wagon collection system somewhat similar to the serv- 
 
 1 Not yet received. 
 
38 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 ice now given by the express companies or a more or less extensive ^ 
 
 ° n Mr Grandfield. We would necessarily have to employ wagons if 
 we collected parcels from street letter boxes ^jffiF*?^ 
 
 The Chairman. Under the present law you collect from package 
 boxes fourth-class mail, do you not? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. , wpiwht 
 
 The Chairman. Then the presumption would be that if the weight 
 limit was increased and the charge diminished the volume of busi- 
 ness would be greatly increased? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir; undoubtedly. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You employ wagons now, do you not, to collect 
 from the package boxes in the larger offices? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Oh, yes; yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You simply think you would have to employ 
 additional wagons because of the increased business? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you think you would have to employ wagons 
 in the offices where they are not now employed? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Of course it would depend upon the rate o± post- 
 age fixed and the extent to which the parcel post would be utilized 
 by the people. I think in a general way, yes ; we would haveto use 
 wagons at many offices ; it would be necessary to make collections. 
 
 Senator Bristow. By installing a wagon service where you do not 
 
 now have it? . j--, nn nn 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes ; for instance, in a small city, say, of 10,000 
 people, where we now make all collections by foot carriers, a slight 
 increase in business might make it advantageous to use wagons. Of 
 course wagons are used as an economical measure. We think that 
 we can save money by using wagons in the collection service. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You would not recommend that a postal wagon 
 go to an individual residence and collect packages, like the express 
 wagons do, would you ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield." Oh, no ; I do not thinlc Senator, that the express 
 wagons go to residences. They go to business houses. My under- 
 standing is that if a person wants to send a package he must take it 
 to the express office. 
 
 Senator Bristow. No ; they will call at the residence or any office 
 in any city of 10 s 000 people. They will call at the residence and get 
 the package. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. They charge an extra fee, however, do they not? 
 
 Senator Bristow. No. [Addressing the chairman.] I was talking 
 to Dr. Grandfield as to whether or not he recommended the depart- 
 ment adopting a policy, if a general parcel post is adopted, of going 
 to the individual residences, as express companies do, with a mail 
 wagon, and collect an individual package, and he said his under- 
 standing was that express companies charge an additional fee for 
 such, but I think he will find that that is not the case. 
 
 The Chairman. I think only in some instances ; as a rule, I do not 
 think they do. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. They charge an extra fee for delivering outside 
 of a certain limit? 
 
PAECBL POST. 39 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes, Doctor ; but not for collecting up to within 
 the prescribed limit, as I understand it. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I should say in the beginning it would be unwise 
 for the Post Office Department to call at residences for parcels. 
 
 The Chairman. In addition to the wagon, what other means of 
 collection are there now in the postal service ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. We have foot collectors, men who collect from 
 street letter boxes on foot. 
 
 The Chairman. You have some automobiles? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Oh, yes; in some cities we make the collections 
 with automobiles — in a few cities — as an experiment that has been 
 tried, but not altogether with success. 
 
 The Chairman. Not altogether? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. The frequent stops at the boxes damage the 
 machinery of the automobile. 
 
 The Chairman. Has sufficient time passed for you to clearly de- 
 termine in your own mind the desirability of automobile collection 
 service ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Unquestionably it is desirable. The automobile- 
 collection service is desirable. "We are now experimenting in this 
 city with an electric automobile. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you reached any conclusion in reference 
 to the saving of the cost or whether the increased efficiency offsets 
 the increased cost? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. That is the only question. The use of an auto- 
 mobile-collection service has heretofore proved somewhat more ex- 
 pensive than collection by horse and wagon. 
 
 The Chairman. But have you determined whether the increased 
 cost is offset by increased efficiency? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think the increased efficiency is worth the in- 
 creased cost. I think it is possible to collect mail with automobiles 
 as cheaply as we do with horses and carts in certain cities. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you consider it practicable to have large 
 package boxes placed at convenient points for the reception of par- 
 cels, perhaps of some different construction from those now in use ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir ; I should consider it practicable. 
 
 The Chairman. Should they be more numerous than at present, 
 if adopted? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. That would depend upon the amount of business ; 
 if the boxes were found to be crowded with packages, that would 
 indicate that more boxes should be supplied. 
 
 The Chairman. And there would be no difficulty in making the 
 increase ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think not; if the revenues justified an increased 
 expenditure. 
 
 The Chairman. To what extent are these boxes now used, and of 
 what does the mail received in them principally consist? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. In package boxes? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; mostly newspapers and other mail matter, 
 or merchandise? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Some merchandise, but principally second and 
 third class matter. 
 
 The Chairman. And not much fourth-class matter? 
 
40 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No; I should say the percentage of fourth-class 
 matter was comparatively small, owing to the fact that the average 
 patron does not know the exact postage, and consequently these 
 packages are usually mailed at stations. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any data obtainable from which an ap- 
 proximate percentage of each class of mail matter now deposited in 
 such boxes can be determined? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No ; only from inquiry. 
 
 The Chairman. And no approximate revenue derived from all 
 other mail matter deposited in such boxes could be determined either? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No ; not from any records we have. 
 
 The Chairman. Could you furnish a statement of the number and 
 cost of boxes now in use? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 1 
 
 Senator Bristow. Doctor, you spoke of depositing second-class 
 mail matter in package boxes. Is that done to any extent? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Practically all second-class mail mailed by indi- 
 viduals other than by the office of publication is deposited in package 
 boxes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, now, what kind of second-class mail is 
 deposited in these boxes? What is the nature of the second-class 
 mail? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. For instance, my wife rolled a newspaper — a copy 
 of a daily paper — at my home last night and put a 1-cent stamp on 
 the wrapper. I put that in a package box on my way downtown 
 this morning. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is that second-class mail? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes; it is what they call second-class matter 
 mailed at the transient rate. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, I had in mind second-class mail at the 
 pound rate — 1 cent a pound. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Of course, that is not mailed in package boxes; 
 that is all taken to the post office by the publisher. 
 
 Senator Bristow. So that practically all second-class mail mailed 
 in the package boxes has a stamp on it ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The rate on that is how much? How many 
 stamps does it take for a pound ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think it is 4 cents a pound. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Four cents a pound is my recollection, but I 
 was not clear on it. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it your opinion that the mail matter now de- 
 posited in package boxes produces a larger or smaller revenue per 
 pound than an increased parcel post would at an average rate of, 
 say, 10 cents per pound ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. How is that, Senator? 
 
 The Chairman. Is it your judgment the mail matter now de- 
 posited in package boxes produces a larger or smaller revenue per 
 pound than an increased parcel post would at an average rate of, 
 say, 10 cents per pound ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I should say that the postage on matter mailed 
 m package boxes would average nearly 13 cents a pound, because 
 
 1 See page 60. 
 
PARCEL, POST. 41 
 
 most of the package mail is probably third-class matter, or circular 
 mail, which would average more than 12 cents a pound, and mixed 
 with that is matter mailed at the rate of 4 cents a pound — that is, 
 at the transient second-class rate — but my judgment is that the most 
 of the mail is third-class mail. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, catalogues under third-class mail are sent 
 at 8 cents a pound, are they not ? 
 
 Mr. Geandfield. That is my recollection. 
 
 Senator Beistow. The second-class mail that is deposited and, 
 indeed, the greater number of the packages, are not of full weight? 
 
 Mr. Geandfteld. That is true. 
 
 Senator Beistow. So that if you weigh the contents of a package 
 box and count how much it would be per pound, according to rates, 
 and then count the amount that the stamps attached thereto equal in 
 the aggregate, the Government would receive very much more per 
 pound than the rate fixed, if it were mailed in one package ? 
 
 Mr. Geandfteld. That is true. 
 
 The Chaieman. Because of fractions? 
 
 Senator Beistow. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Geandfield. For that reason I should say that the rate of 10 
 cents per pound for parcels would not be as profitable as the present 
 rate on parcels usually deposited in package boxes. 
 
 The Chaieman. Do you believe the Government would be justified 
 in expending funds necessary to secure a sufficient number of pack- 
 age boxes to secure an increased parcel post, as a business proposition ? 
 
 Mr. Geandfield. That would depend entirely upon the rate of 
 postage. If the rate were fixed sufficiently high to produce a reve- 
 nue, why undoubtedly it would be a good business proposition to 
 supply additional boxes. 
 
 The Chaieman. Well, have you given any consideration to the 
 subject, so that you can come to a conclusion in your own mind as to 
 the rate that the Government should charge in case the weight limit 
 was increased, say, from 4 to 11 pounds in this country? 
 
 Mr. Geandfield. No. There are too many unknown quantities in 
 that problem. 
 
 The Chairman. You have come to no conclusion at all ? 
 
 Mr. Geandfteld. No, sir ; it would depend upon whether the Gov- 
 ernment had a monopoly on packages weighing 11 pounds. It would 
 depend also upon whether the rate of postage was a flat rate or 
 whether it was established on a zone system. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you come to any conclusion in your own 
 mind as to whether you would favor a zone system or a flat rate ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfteld. It would be impossible to compete with the ex- 
 press companies without a zone system; otherwise the Government 
 would get all of the long hauls and the express companies all the 
 short hauls. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you concluded in your own mind as to the 
 desirability of the Government, if legally able to constitute a gov- 
 ernmental monopoly of packages or packets to 11 pounds weight, 
 maximum, if that were established? 
 
 Mr. Grandfteld. It would hardly be fair to a patron to charge the 
 same price for carrying a package from Washington to San Fran- 
 cisco as from Washington to Baltimore. 
 
 The Chairman. You do it now, don't you? 
 
42 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. We do it now, but he has his choice. He can us 
 the mails or the express. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you, as I understand your answer, are op 
 posed to governmental monopoly of transportation of packages i 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No; not opposed. I think it would be unfair t< 
 create a monopoly of that kind unless at the same time provision wer< 
 made for a zone rate. In other words, a patron should be able t( 
 send a package to Baltimore from Washington at a cheaper rat* 
 than from Washington to San Francisco. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, where would the general welfare of the 
 public generally be served by the establishment of a governments 
 monopoly for the carrying of packages, unless the Government gav< 
 them cheaper rates or as cheap rates as they could get from private 
 individuals ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. We give them cheaper rates now than .they car 
 get from private individuals when the haul is long, and the conse- 
 quence is that we have all the long hauls and the express companies 
 have all the short hauls. I would favor a Government monopoly on 
 parcels. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why would you? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Because in the long run the people would benefit, 
 They would get a cheaper rate than the express companies could give, 
 If we had a monopoly we would transact sufficient business to make 
 it profitable even at a low rate of postage; that is, at a lower rate 
 than the average transportation charges are now on express packages. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think the express companies make a profit 
 on all their business to-day? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No ; I think the express companies do, but I ques- 
 tion whether or not the railroad companies do. As I understand 
 the matter, the express companies divide gross charges with the rail- 
 road company, and consequently the express companies can not lose. 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, the express company is simply a 
 child of the parent railroad company? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I do not know about that, but I have understood 
 that a certain part — 60 per cent, I believe — of the express company 
 charges go to the railroads for transportation. 
 
 The Chairman. So that no matter what the express rate may be, 
 the railroad company makes a profit. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. The expre-s company makes a profit; not neces- 
 sarily the railroad company. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I understood you to sav that the express 
 companies carry some packages to-day at a loss to" themselves ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No, I did not say that; I said I did not know 
 about that. I think it likely that the railroad company may carry 
 parcels at a loss, but I do not see how the express companies can 
 lose anything, because if they pay 60 per cent of the net express 
 charges to the railroad company and the other 40 per cent goes to the 
 express company, the transportation charge must necessarily be the 
 largest end of it; that is, the transportation expense must be greater 
 than the work of collecting the packages and delivering to the 
 railroad. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, in the segregation of receipts; but as a 
 matter of fact, as I understand, you estimate in the Post 'Office 
 
PARCEL POST. 43 
 
 Department that your cost of collection and distribution is about 
 three times that of the cost of transportation ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. That is on all classes of mail matter. There are 
 40 or 50 pieces of mail matter occasionally to the pound. 
 
 The Chairman. Is not that the general estimate, that you figure 
 your cost of collection and distribution about 75 to 80 per cent of 
 the total cost of handling, and that the transportation cost is from 
 20 to 25 per cent of the total cost of handling? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I do not know the exact figures, but of course I 
 know the expense of distribution is much greater than the expense 
 of transportation, because mail matter is exceedingly light and con- 
 sists of numerous pieces. 
 
 The Chairman. If an enlarged parcel-post bill were passed, 
 would you advocate the delivery of parcels to the residence of the 
 addressee, or would you suggest that the patrons be required to call 
 for their parcels at the post offices ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No; I would favor the delivery of parcels, es- 
 pecially in the city delivery offices. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You would, then, abolish the present system of 
 sending notices to patrons to call for packages too heavy for de- 
 livery ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir; I think that practice should be aban- 
 doned now. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Would not you thereby greatly increase the 
 cost of delivery ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Not greatly, I think, Senator. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Would you not have to have wagons where it 
 is now done by foot? Instead of having a man walking around 
 delivering the small packages, you would have him with a horse 
 and wagon driving around delivering not only the small packages, 
 but some larger ones ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes; that is true, but I think it can be done 
 advantageously even now, and we are conducting some experiments 
 along those lines. The superintendent of delivery in Chicago sug- 
 gested some time ago that he believed the service could be improved 
 and the men relieved of carrying heavy burdens by using a wagon 
 to deliver second, third, and fourth-class matter over 4 or 5 foot- 
 carrier routes, and we have hired a team — had a wagon specially 
 constructed for the purpose — and are trying the experiment now 
 in Chicago. My judgment is that it will prove successful; that it 
 will not only give the people better service, but will prove econ- 
 omical. As it is now, when a carrier starts out with 70 or 80 
 pounds of mail, necessarily he must walk slowty. Now, if we could 
 relieve him of the second-class mail and of the package mail, and 
 let him deliver only first-class mail, he could make a much quicker 
 delivery and cover more territory. I think that one wagon could 
 serve at least four carriers' routes ; probably more. 
 
 The Chairman. That would be a follow-up service ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield.' Yes; make one delivery a day, say, in residential 
 territory where we are making three deliveries, cut out the noon de- 
 livery by foot carrier, and let him make two deliveries of first-class 
 mail and such part of the important second-class mail as may be 
 deemed advisable. 
 
44 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. How long before you expect to make your definiti 
 ascertainment on that experiment in Chicago? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. It started about the 1st of October, and the post 
 master has not so far made any report, although he was miormec 
 that it was desirable to have a report before the publication 01 oui 
 annual report; that we would like to have a paragraph on the experi- 
 ment for our annual report. . 
 
 The Chairman. Although I understand the rural service does no! 
 come under your jurisdiction, I would like to ask if you thmk special 
 boxes should be provided for deliveries on rural routes in case there 
 was an enlarged field for the parcel-post service created ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think that might be left to the patron. As it is 
 now, he furnishes a box, and if the box proves to be too small and he 
 receives packages frequently, no doubt he would be willing to fur- 
 nish a larger box. 
 
 The Chairman. In that connection, is it at the patron's risk he 
 furnishes the box, and if it is not locked the risk is his under the 
 present system? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it perfectly satisfactory to the public generally; 
 do you find it so ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I do not think we have many complaints about 
 depredations on rural boxes. 
 
 The Chairman. So that it would be your opinion that the patron 
 would furnish his packet box as well, and willingly assume the risk 
 of theft or injury from rain or otherwise? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. We have the same system in the city-delivery 
 service. We endeavor to induce the patrons to provide house boxes, 
 and no matter what sort of a box is provided, if it is satisfactory to 
 them, and they accept delivery in the box, our responsibility ceases 
 when the delivery is made in whatever receptacle they have pro- 
 vided. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, you think the service would be improved 
 if the department required that boxes be attached to residences for 
 the receipt and collection of mail, including parcels, by the city 
 patrons themselves? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Very greatly improved, and a vast saving could 
 be effected. 
 
 The Chairman. In the way of economy of time to the Government? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. In the way of economy of time to the Govern- 
 ment. A carrier will lose on an average not less than 15 seconds at 
 each door waiting for some one to answer the ring. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you deem it would be necessarv for the de- 
 partment to determine and require certain dimensions" or makes or 
 construction of such boxes? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think it would be decidedly advantageous for 
 the department. 
 
 The Chairman. Would that prove an irritation to the public? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. That is the reason it has not been attempted. 
 We asked Congress to enact a law requiring the public- to provide 
 these boxes. That would relieve the source of irritation, I think. 
 
 Senator Bristow. So far as the department was concerned? 
 
PABCEL POST. 4& 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think it would so far as the public is concerned 
 also. The law would be enacted in the interest of the patrons, and I 
 do not see in what way it would be a source of irritation to the public. 
 The boxes would last indefinitely, and the expense would be trifling 
 to start with. 
 
 The Chairman. How large a box would be necessary, under the 
 present limitations of mail matter, and of what material should 
 that be constructed? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. A slot in the door, with a box 6 by 6 by 8 is 
 ample, as a rule. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that would not be convenient for fourth- 
 class matter. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No ; I am speaking now of the present service. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, you have a 4-pound limitation for fourth- 
 class matter at the present time, have you ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. That is true, but the average weight of a pack- 
 age is less than a pound. 
 
 The Chairman. Under the 4-pound maximum? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the average weight of a parcel under the 
 international convention of 11 pounds maximum? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I do not know. I think we have some figures 
 that will show that, however. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I think it will be well for him to incorporate 
 those figures. 
 
 The Chairman. We have that. In suburban localities, does it 
 often occur that the houses on a carrier's route are located some dis- 
 tance from the street or the sidewalk? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. In such cases should the box be attached to the 
 house, or rather to some post or other fixture convenient to the side- 
 walk? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think we should have a limit. The post should 
 be within a certain distance from the sidewalk. As it is now, where 
 the service is already in operation we can not make any change. 
 Where new houses are constructed we require the patrons to pro- 
 vide a box within easy reach of the carrier. 
 
 The Chairman. Under rules and regulations or under law? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Under a regulation. 
 
 The Chairman. Are carriers now allowed to use whistles while 
 delivering mail? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Are the trips made practically at the same time 
 every day by the carrier? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Are the occupants of houses frequently at the 
 door or gate to receive the mail directly from the carriers? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. In certain localities; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. In such instances the carrier saves considerable 
 time, does he not — quite an appreciable amount in the day's service ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. By using a whistle, you mean ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir; of course that applies largely to the 
 poorer sections of the cities, where people live in courts and in tene- 
 
46 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 ments. The carrier blows his whistle when he approaches the tene- 
 ment house, and the patrons come down in the lower corridor to gel 
 
 the mail. ,.,,, . .. ,, , 
 
 The Chairman. I understood you to say a little while ago thai 
 automobiles are used now in the postal service for carrying the 
 mails ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. . 
 
 The Chairman. Are they used regularly, or is their occasional use 
 authorized bv the postal officials? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. We make four-year contracts and have a number 
 of such contracts. This last Congress gave the department authority 
 to make four-year contracts. Heretofore we had been limited to one- 
 year contracts, and, of course, it is very difficult to induce the con- 
 tractors to build a special automobile for one year's service. 
 
 I think the law reads something like this : 
 
 Hereafter the Postmaster General may make contracts for canceling ma- 
 chines, for collection of mail by attaching letter boxes to street cars, and for 
 vehicles for the City Delivery Service for not exceeding four years. 
 
 There is no limitation. 
 
 The Chairman. With no pecuniary limitation as to that power? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think not. It is in the current appropriation 
 act. Of course, the department is limited by the total appropriation 
 made for the service. 
 
 The Chairman. I suppose there must be, or should be, some 
 limitation ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, the appropriation under which we run 
 automobiles for the collection service reads something like this: 
 " For horse-hire allowance and for the rental of vehicles, etc." 
 
 The Chairman. How much? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. $925,000. 
 
 The Chairman. So that there is a limitation. There is full dis- 
 cretionary power on the part of the Postmaster General as to how he 
 should divide this appropriation, but he can not exceed that appro- 
 priation under this authorization? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. That is true. Of course, only a small part of 
 this appropriation of $925,000 is used for maintaining automobiles, 
 because, as I say, we have never had the authority to make a con- 
 tract for a longer term than one year until the enactment of the 
 present law. 
 
 The Chairman. But, as I understand it, it is your opinion that 
 when this automobile service is enlarged it would be found that it is 
 beneficial from the Government's standpoint, either in increased 
 efficiency or decreased cost? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. As I say, so far the cost exceeds the 
 cost of collecting mail by horse-drawn vehicles, but the service is 
 more satisfactory in every other way. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, in making your contracts, does the depart- 
 ment make a stipulation with the contractor as to whether horses 
 and wagons or automobiles are used, or is it left to the contractors? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. We stipulate as to what should be used and draw 
 up the specifications. As a matter of fact, it has always appeared to 
 me that if we could obtain a satisfactory electric vehicle for collect- 
 ing mail, and had authority to purchase such vehicles, in the large 
 
PARCEL POST. 47 
 
 cities where we have electric plants and electricians, it would be 
 more economical for the Government to own such vehicles; but, of 
 course, improvements are being constantly made in electric motors 
 and storage batteries, and in gasoline motor cars. 
 
 The Chairman. Has the Government itself electric plants in many 
 cities ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, we have the heat and power plants in most 
 of the cities ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Owned by the Government? 
 
 Mr. Geandfield. Yes, sir ; in our post-office building here 
 
 The Chairman. I know you have here in Washington such a plant. 
 
 Mr. Geandfield. I think in New York also and in many of the 
 large cities; Chicago also. 
 
 The Chairman. And your policy now, as I understand it, is in 
 the erection of new post offices to treat the post office purely as a man- 
 ufacturing building for a most economical collection and distribution 
 of the mail ? 
 
 Mr. Geandfield. That is our policy. 
 
 The Chairman. And your desire is to have a regular standard 
 adopted of plants, etc., so that they can be utilized in cities, depend- 
 ent upon the population, with the latest up-to-date appliances in the 
 way of economical handling? 
 
 Mr. Geandfield. Yes, sir; we have one such post office practically 
 completed, that is at St. Louis. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that completed now? 
 
 Mr. Geandfield. It is almost completed. I think it will probably 
 be six months before we move in. 
 
 The Chaieman. What change or improvements in the cancella- 
 tion of mail matter do you think will be necessary if we increase the 
 scope of our present parcel post by increasing the weight limit to 11 
 pounds and decreasing the rate of postage ? 
 
 Mr. Geandfield. I do not know of any, change. 
 
 The Chaieman. Would you think it feasible to send parcels oh 
 slower trains than those now carrying mails? 
 
 Mr. Geandfield. I think not ; but that would depend somewhat on 
 the nature of the parcels. 
 
 The Chaieman. Well, taking, for the sake of illustration, the pres- 
 ent classification under your fourth-class matter, enlarging the 
 weight limit and decreasing the cost of the service, do you think that 
 the same service and time of delivery could be given to them as to 
 your first-class mail ? 
 
 Mr. Geandfield. No ; I think not. 
 
 The Chaieman. You think a segregation should be made there? 
 
 Mr. Geandfield. I think a segregation should be made. 
 
 The Chairman. It would be justifiable and would serve the gen- 
 eral welfare as well? 
 
 Mr. Geandfield. I think so. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you advocate sending parcels by fast 
 freight? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. That would depend, of course, Senator, on the 
 amount of such freight. If it were sufficient to justify the railroads 
 in running specially fast freight trains for that purpose, yes ; but if 
 it only meant a slight increase or not a great increase in the amount 
 of such parcels, I should say no. 
 
48 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. That would be a matter for future determination, 
 depending upon the volume of increased business ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir ; I think so. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you consider it practicable to send parcels 
 in mail sacks as under the present practice? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes; if 11 pounds were made the limit. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it a fact that some fourth-class -mail matter is 
 damaged in transit? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Any appreciable amount, do you think i 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think not. If proper precautions are used in 
 wrapping parcels injury to the mail is not very likely to occur. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is the percentage of loss in fourth-class mail 
 matter increasing ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Do you mean from depredations? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I do not think so. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You guarantee it now to a certain amount, do 
 you not ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. If it is registered, yes ; the percentage of loss of 
 registered packages is almost infinitesimal. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The larger part of the fourth-class matter is not 
 registered ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. There is no guaranty for that class of mail. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I was just wondering whether or not the increase 
 in the use of the mails for these packages was leading to an increase 
 in the depredations upon that class of mail. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I do not think so. I have no figures, however, on 
 the subject, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. Does the department have rules and regulations 
 which the shipper must follow in the way of packing ? 
 . Mr. Grandfield. The Congress in some instances prescribes 
 
 The Chairman. In generic terms, I presume, not in specific cases? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No, I think not; except perhaps in the case of 
 poisons. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that is classification? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, as I understand you, Doctor, if the weight 
 limit is increased to 11 pounds as a maximum, shipment in mail 
 sacks would be perfectly satisfactory, and it would not be necessary, 
 as some countries require, to have hampers especially for packages 
 for parcel-post service — that is, assuming that the present classifica- 
 tion remained the same in reference to the mail that could be con- 
 veyed under the increased scope ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. The answer to that question and the answer to 
 the question about sending the parcels by fast freight, depends 
 entirely upon the use that would be made of such a parcel-post 
 system. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, how much you added to the material that 
 would be conveyed under that system? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Exactly so. 
 
 The Chairman. Over existing conditions? 
 
PAECEL POST. 49 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. The rate of postage and the kind of matter that 
 could be carried as mailable matter would govern, I should say. An 
 enormous increase in the volume of such mail would necessitate some 
 change in the transportation facilities; probably fast freight and the 
 use of something other than mail sacks. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, if you increase the present scope, and we 
 will assume in all these questions that the theory is to increase the 
 weight to 11 pounds, would it be necessary to instruct postmasters 
 and postal employees to handle parcels more carefully than other 
 mail that is handled now? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No, I should say that whatever mail is injured 
 occurs in the railway-mail cars and in the transfer from one railway 
 post-office line to another,, throwing the sacks from the car to the 
 station platform and that sort of thing. There is no liability to 
 injure mail in the post office except when we attempt to run a thick 
 package through a canceling machine. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, is it true that where mail matter is dam- 
 aged, as a rule, it is due to the carelessness of the original shipper in 
 providing insufficient or poor packing? 
 
 Mr. (irRANni'iEi.n. Tii a general way. yes. Of course, if we attempt 
 to run a package half an inch thick through a canceling machine, 
 and there is something hard inside of the package, the metal post- 
 marking die will smash it, no matter what it is. That, of course, 
 is the result of the carelessness of the employee. 
 
 The Chairman. And I assume that he would be called to account 
 for it? 
 
 Mr. Grandfteld. Surely. 
 
 The Chairman. Because, as I understood you to say, the canceling 
 machine would only handle packages of a quarter of an inch in 
 thickness, as a maximum? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes; and that must be a package that is com- 
 pressible. 
 
 The Chairman. In feeding the canceling machine, I assume that 
 the employee in the post office makes the separation himself? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. Of course it is done very rapidly, and 
 it is almost impossible to avoid all mistakes of that kind. A man is 
 supposed to face up for treatment by the canceling machine from 
 40 to 70 letters a minute. 
 
 The Chairman. Forty to seventy? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. We have a machine table now that in- 
 creases the man's speed probably 25 to 30 per cent. 
 
 The Chairman. If a bill were passed by Congress increasing (he 
 weight limit to 11 pounds and decreasing the cost of the service, how 
 long a time do you think the department should have for meeting 
 the requirements and making the necessary preparations for such an 
 enlargement of the present scope? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, I should say that we ought to have the 
 same' opportunity or discretion that was given the department to 
 put into operation the postal -savings system. 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, it is your opinion that Congress 
 should do nothing but authorize the department to install this sys- 
 tem as it sees fit? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think so. 
 
 21845— vol 1—12 i 
 
50 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Now, you say that it should be given the same 
 time as was given for the installation of the postal-savings bank. 1 
 can not understand why you say that. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Suppose, Senator, for the sake of argument, that 
 the law authorizing the establishment of postal-savings depositories 
 should have directed the Postmaster General to make all money- 
 order offices postal savings depositories on a certain day; that would 
 have been 40.000 post offices. 
 
 Senator Beistow. I can see that ; but why do you make the same 
 application to the enlarging of the facilities you already have? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; that was a new installation— the other. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, it was new in one sense. If the establish- 
 ment of a parcels post meant taking over one-fourth of the express 
 business of the country it would mean acquiring one-fourth of the 
 facilities the express companies now have. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But you would not do it at once — immediately? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. What do you mean? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Take it over. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. If the business started on a certain day, we would 
 require the facilities at that time. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You have the facilities now. It is simply in- 
 creasing the facilities you have as the business demands it. 
 
 Mr. .Grandfield. We have the facilities for handling the business 
 that we now transact. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If that were doubled in the course of a year it 
 would simply mean the gradual enlarging of the facilities. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, if the parcel post means only doubling the 
 package mail, yes: but I, think it means multiplying it by 10 or 15. 
 
 Senator Bristow. For what period of time? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Just as soon as the law became operative. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Instantaneous or coincident with it? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. If Congress furnishes certain facilities to the 
 people for doing business, and it becomes operative on a certain day, 
 it seems to me that the business would begin on that day. 
 
 The Chairman. But, Doctor, under the 11-pound limitation the av- 
 erage weight of a package is about 34 pounds. The average weight 
 of an express package to-day is 34 pounds. Now, if you increase 
 your weight limit to 11 pounds I do not see how you can figure that 
 you are going to take from the express companies any tremendous 
 amount of their business, or 50 per cent of it, as I understood you 
 to say. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. 1 said one-fourth. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Say 25 per cent? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, make it one-tenth. If you will come 
 down 
 
 The Chairman. One-tenth in weight or one-tenth in number, do 
 you mean? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I mean one-tenth in weight. 
 v ? e j a u° r - Bristow - But > Doctor, you do not think that an estab- 
 lished business like the express companies have, with the established 
 facilities which the department now has, that merely the enlarging 
 of that facility would cause any instantaneous change. The express 
 companies are not going to permit the department to simply take 25 
 
PARCEL POST. 51 
 
 per cent of the business at once. Do you think that is a reasonable 
 supposition ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Why, that depends on the object Congress has in 
 view. It depends on the scope of the law. I assumed that the par- 
 cel-post law meant that the department would have practically a 
 monopoly on packages weighing up to 11 pounds in weight by rea- 
 son of a reduced rate in postage. 
 
 The Chairman. It can only secure a monopoly in two ways — one 
 would be by legislation, making it a monopoly, and the other would 
 be by giving the public better service and at a less cost than the 
 express companies could possibly meet. That is true, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. That is true. 
 
 The Chairman. Which method of monopoly did you assume that 
 Congress would want to establish? 
 
 Mr= Grandfield. I assumed that the rate would be low enough to 
 give the department a monopoly. 
 
 The Chairman. And prevent private competition because of su- 
 periority of service and cost? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. Of course it seems to me that the 
 proper plan to pursue would be to conduct two experiments — an 
 experiment on the rural routes, where we have the machinery and 
 where we know we can handle the business and we have no questions 
 to raise about it, and an experiment in the city delivery offices, where 
 we have every reason to believe we can handle the business. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why do you want an experiment on the rural 
 routes ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, to determine what rate of postage would 
 sustain the service. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You have the service? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. We have the service, absolutely ; yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, you can deliver the packages ; there is no 
 doubt about that ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. None whatever. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It is simply providing for an additional business 
 with an existing service? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Which will be somewhat limited because of con- 
 ditions. It would not be necessarily a very large increase in the 
 business of the rural carrier. It would be a gradual development, if 
 it were a large increase, would it not ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think it would be a large increase right from 
 the beginning, if a local rate of postage were made. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the cost of the material is a factor with the 
 resident in the country, is it not; the purchase price — not only the 
 service, but the purchase price of the goods, the articles conveyed ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. It would be a two-way service. The countryman 
 has something to send into town. In the beginning he would have 
 more to send in than he would bring out. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The countryman — you would not advocate send- 
 ing his produce in by mail, would you ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I would. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What kind of produce? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Eggs, butter; anything that is available and can 
 be carried. 
 
52 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Senator Beistow. You would make a rural carrier a kind of a 
 huckster,, then? 
 
 The Chairman. The same as is done in European countries. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. If the service is to be made valuable to the farmer, 
 I should say yes. 
 
 The Chairman. What investigation has been made by the depart- 
 ment in other countries having a far more efficient and broader parcel 
 post than we have in this country? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I do not know. The Postmaster General has 
 made some inquiries, but just what I do not know. It was made 
 through the Bureau of Foreign Mails, or the Division of Foreign 
 Mails. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, you are not aware as to how extensive that 
 research was made or is being made, and what information has thus 
 far been collated ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No, sir; I do not know. I do know that the Post- 
 master General has made some inquiries. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Who is at the head of the Foreign Mail Service 
 now? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. That is under the bureau of the Second Assistant, 
 Mr. Stewart. Mr. Miles is the superintendent. I am not sure it 
 was made through the Foreign Mails Bureau, but I do know that the 
 Postmaster General has made some inquiries, because he discussed it 
 with me once or twice. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any opinion as to the date of the initia- 
 tion of the inquiry? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. How long ago? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No ; I do not know. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you suggest that a representative or a 
 committee of the department be sent to other countries to observe 
 how the various problems have been solved there, or do you think that 
 a committee from Congress should make that investigation? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think both plans would no doubt be advan- 
 tageous; that valuable information could be collected. On the other 
 hand, I should say that an actual experiment here in this country 
 would prove of more value than anything else. 
 
 The Chairman. That is interesting. I would like to get your 
 process m coming to that conclusion. Why can not the people of 
 the United States profit by the experience of other nations? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think they can. 
 
 The Chairman. Why are we estopped from utilization of demon- 
 strated results of other nations and obliged to enter into an experi- 
 ment in this country ? 
 
 Mr Grandfield. I do not think we are. I think we should take 
 advantage of the knowledge acquired in operating the system in other 
 countries. J 
 
 The Chairman. Is it possible to collate data from other countries 
 and arrange the relatiyeness in the difference of existing conditions 
 and come to some conclusions as to how far we can profit by the ex- 
 perience of other countries, given the differences in the existing con- 
 ditions between other countries and our own« 
 
 iJi V \?\ A H U¥ !v% D - But the differences are so radical that it seems 
 to me that the differences would vitiate the data collected 
 
PARCEL POST. 53 
 
 The Chairman. What are the radical differences, Doctor, in your 
 opinion ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, scattered population and the extent of 
 the country. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, Australia has a larger territory than we 
 have in the United States proper, a much more scattered population, 
 an infinitely poorer method of communication and postal service 
 than we have in this country ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman.. I was anxious to get your viewpoint as to why 
 the experience of other countries could not be studied and applied 
 with benefit in our own country, especially when we have, as I under- 
 stand it, a rural delivery service far better developed than any coun- 
 try in the world. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. In that connection, in the rural delivery service, 
 what percentage of the maximum peak of efficiency is now utilized 
 in that service? In other words, what proportion of the amount of 
 service does a rural carrier give now that he is capable of giving at 
 his maximum limit? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, I do not. know, but I should say about 30 
 per cent. 
 
 The Chairman. So you have a waste apparently of 70 per cent, 
 which would be utilized if your assumption is correct that the busi- 
 ness by the enlargement of the limit and decrease of price over the 
 present parcel post resulted in a vast increase in volume of business 
 
 Erovided the rural routes received their proportionate share of that 
 usiness. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Of course, that is simply a guess on my part; I 
 have nothing to base it on but a general knowledge of the service, 
 but I should say that we could, and undoubtedly we do, use the ex- 
 perience of foreign countries in drawing conclusions as to parcel 
 post in this country, but it seems to me that we have all the statistics 
 now that would be of any great value. 
 
 The Chairman. What statistics have we? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. We have the published reports of their operations 
 of the postal system. 
 
 The Chairman. Have they been collated and compared and 
 charted ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No ; not that I am aware of, and yet I assume that 
 those who have studied the matter have given consideration to the 
 experiences of other countries. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, who has given particular study to the mat- 
 ter, Doctor, that you know of ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think the Postmaster General has given the 
 subject some consideration, and Mr. Stewart, the Second Assistant 
 Postmaster General. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, you think they have given a much closer 
 study to the subject than you have? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Because it has not come directly jinder your super- 
 vision ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. In the establishment of the postal sav- 
 ings bank, the system of other countries was inquired into, a study 
 
54 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 was made, and it was decided that we could get up a better system 
 than any of the other countries. Now, whether we have or not, only 
 experience can show. It is not modeled on the practice oi other 
 countries. 
 
 The Chairman. It is a composite based upon the experience of 
 other countries and the application to the conditions in this country, 
 and with a number of limitations under the present bill ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir ; of course, we had our own money-order 
 system as a model in one direction, and then we had the practice of 
 the foreign countries in handling the business, but the system is not 
 like either one. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Who in the department has control of these 
 postal savings banks — under whose jurisdiction? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. The Postmaster General has taken charge of the 
 entire business, and no important step has been taken without 
 
 Senator Bristow. Who is in charge of it — who is at the head of 
 that service? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, the organization — Mr. Thompson, who was 
 formerly the superintendent of the Division of Finance, is in charge 
 of the clerical force in the department that handles the work. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, there is a commission, is there not ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes; the board of trustees, consisting of the Post- 
 master General, the Secretary of the Treasury, and the Attorney 
 General, and a secretary to the board of trustees, Mr. Weed, who is 
 the chief clerk of the department. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, from your answer to Senator Bristow's 
 question, am I to understand that the Postmaster General has ab- 
 sorbed all the powers of the commission or only simply so far as the 
 Post Office Department goes? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No ; the board of trustees has the making of the 
 regulations under which the system is operative, and the board, hav- 
 ing made the regulations, the Postmaster General administers them. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And that is done through a division that has 
 been created in the department? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes ; the correspondence is handled by a division 
 consisting of, I think, about 40 employees. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And Mr. Thompson is at the head of that 
 division ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. He is at the head of that division. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And he reports directly to the Postmaster Gen- 
 era] 5 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir ; through the chief clerk, who is the sec- 
 retary ot the board of trustees, who handles the matter for the Post- 
 master General. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is, Thompson is under the chief clerk of 
 the department? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir; he is under the chief clerk of the depart- 
 ment in the sense that the chief clerk of the department is the secre- 
 tary ot the board of trustees of the postals savings system. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If the Postmaster General is administering this, 
 I can not understand why the chief clerk of the department, as the 
 secretary of the board of trustees, has anything to do with it. He 
 may have, as chief clerk of the department 
 
PARCEL POST. 55 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. That is a convenient arrangement on account of 
 the arrangement of the office rooms. The chief clerk's office is at- 
 tached to the Postmaster General's office. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But, then, does he handle that as secretary of the 
 board or as chief clerk to the Postmaster General ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. As secretary to the board. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why would the secretary of the board be closer 
 to the Postmaster General than to the Secretary of the Treasury ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, he is physically closer, Senator. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Then' I do not see that that should be a reason 
 why he should have supervision of the clerical force of the Post 
 Office Department. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. He does not have supervision of the clerical force ; 
 the clerical force is under Mr. Thompson, but Mr. Thompson's func- 
 tions are as supervisor of this force. He must refer to some one, 
 and he reports to the Postmaster General through the chief clerk. 
 I mean to convey the idea that it is not under any bureau. It is di- 
 rectly under the Postmaster General's office — just the same as the 
 chief inspector's office. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The chief inspector does not report to the chief 
 clerk, does he? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Oh, no; he reports to the Postmaster General 
 direct. Of course in actual practice a great deal of the work is 
 handled through the chief clerk's office. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, the chief clerk is really the secretary to the 
 Postmaster General, is he? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No; the chief clerk is not. The Postmaster 
 General's secretary has a separate office, but the correspondence of the 
 department goes through the chief clerk's office to the Postmaster 
 General, just the same as the correspondence in the First Assistant's 
 bureau comes 
 
 Senator Bristow. There has been a change, then, in recent years; 
 the chief clerk never used to handle the Postmaster General's corre- 
 spondence at all? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. That is true; there has been a change, but at 
 the same time the Postmaster General's office is now modeled on the 
 way the work is handled in the offices of the several Assistant Post- 
 masters General. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How does an Assistant Postmaster General act? 
 Does he take a matter up with the chief clerk if the Postmaster Gen- 
 eral is engaged — if it is a matter in which the Postmaster General 
 may want his advice — or does he go direct to the Postmaster General 
 with the correspondence, correspondence between the bureaus and 
 the Postmaster General? Does that come through the chief clerk's 
 hands ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No; only routine correspondence. For instance, 
 a letter is prepared in my office for the signature of the Postmaster 
 General and it goes through the chief clerk's office. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It does. Well, what does the Postmaster Gen- 
 eral's secretary do now? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. He handles the Postmaster General's corre- 
 spondence. 
 
 Senator Bristow. His personal mail? 
 
56 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes; his personal mail. +-u„ mlff h the 
 
 Senator Bristow. And the departmental mail passes thiougn me 
 
 chief clerk now; from the bureau, through the chief clerk, to tne 
 
 P MV m G R ™T" 1 Exactly in the same way, Senator that the work 
 in The office of the Fourth Assistant Postmaster General goes through 
 his chief clerk. The chiefs of division submit their mail for the 
 Fourth Assistant's signature to the chief clerk, who m turn takes it 
 
 to the Fourth Assistant. .... „ V * + 
 
 Senator Brtstow. Of course, this inquiry is not really pertinent to 
 the subject, but it is illuminating in regard to the organization of the 
 department I can not understand; if the chief clerk has assumed 
 this he is virtually the Assistant Postmaster General or an assistant 
 to the Postmaster General ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I do not understand that he has assumed any- 
 thing: he has simply taken the work that the Postmaster General has 
 assigned to him. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Of course, but then, as a matter of tact, the cniet 
 clerk of the department now appears to be an assistant to the Post- 
 master General. An Assistant Postmaster General submits his official 
 communication with the Postmaster General to the chief clerk? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Oh, no; I am speaking now of the routine corre- 
 spondence of the department, Certain papers must He prepared for 
 the Postmaster General's signature, correspondence with other mem- 
 bers of the President's Cabinet, etc. It is all prepared for the Post- 
 master General's signature; much of it is of the simplest routine 
 character. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, a great deal of it the law requires that the 
 Postmaster General should sign. 
 Mr. Grandfield. Surely. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, under the former organization of the de- 
 partment an Assistant Postmaster General handled that which came 
 under his bureau and took it direct to the Postmaster General. The 
 Postmaster General's secretary would receive it, or his messenger, and 
 then when the time afforded he would hand that to the Postmaster 
 General. The chief clerk never had anything to do with it. He 
 never saw it. Now, as I understand it, that system has been changed, . 
 so that the mail from the desk of an Assistant Postmaster General 
 goes to the desk of the chief clerk of the department, and the chief 
 clerk of the department serves as an assistant to the Postmaster 
 General in the discharge of this routine business as a helper. Is that 
 correct ; is that the present system ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. In the main, yes ; and that has been the practice 
 of the department in the majority of cases since I have been there. 
 As a rule, the y organization so far as the chief clerk's office is con- 
 cerned depends largely on the chief clerk. I remember when Mr. 
 "Wanamaker was Postmaster General that the organization was ex- 
 actly as it is now. The chief clerk handled all of the correspondence 
 of the various bureaus that went to the Postmaster General for signa- 
 ture. At that time the Postmaster General's secretary was his sec- 
 retary and attended simply to his personal correspondence. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That was not true during the eight years I was 
 in the department. 
 
PAKCEL POST. 57 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, it depends largely who is chief clerk and 
 who is private secretary and who is Postmaster General. 
 
 The Chairman. On the personal equation? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Personal equation, yes. The Postmaster Gen- 
 eral's office is now organized, so far as the chief clerk is concerned, 
 and every bureau is organized exactly as it has been heretofore. You 
 will no doubt recall that all correspondence in the bureau goes to the 
 chief clerk of that bureau. That is one of the duties assigned by 
 regulation, and so far as my recollection goes it has always been one 
 of his duties to supervise the correspondence of the entire bureau. 
 That has just been extended a step further to the Postmaster Gen- 
 eral's office, which is not a new thing by any means, because I think 
 during the time I have been in the department that has been the gen- 
 eral organization. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, you will have to except eight years of that, 
 Doctor, because I was there eight years, and it was not the organiza- 
 tion then. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, at that time the Postmaster General had a 
 secretary who was a very good business man himself, and he practi- 
 cally took over many of the functions of the chief clerk. 
 
 The Chairman. While we are getting this information illumi- 
 nating the organization, I would like to ask, Doctor, how often the 
 four assistants and the Postmaster General meet in consultation to 
 talk over departmental matters? I assume that they have regular 
 meetings once a week? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No; the meetings are only when he calls us to- 
 gether, but I suppose I am in his office two or three times in a day 
 at times and sometimes not for several days. 
 
 The Chairman. Then there is no established plan where the four 
 assistants and the chief might meet together to talk over the general 
 service at all? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Not a regular plan ; no, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Hasn't there ever been ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Mr. Meyer had a plan of that kind when he was 
 Postmaster General; we used to meet about once'a week. No; I do 
 not think there has ever been a plan except the one instituted by 
 Mr. Meyer. I don't believe any Postmaster General, so far as my 
 knowledge goes, held regular conferences. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, aren't the different departments so corre- 
 lated and so interwoven that it would be beneficial to the service 
 generally if such a plan were adopted? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes; I think in a general way. At the same 
 time, I do not mean to say that no such meetings occur, for they do 
 occur, and, as far as my knowledge goes, there is a better coopera- 
 tion between the bureaus now than ever before. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the weight of a standard mail sack? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I do not know. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know the maximum weight allowed to be 
 placed in a mail sack ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No ; I do not. 
 
 The Chairman. What do the pick-up tables cost ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. $1,550. We have a contract now for pick-up 
 tables. There were some few purchased before, which, I think, cost 
 more. I believe one of them cost $3,500. The Post Office Depart- 
 
58 PARCEL POST. 
 
 ment only purchased one up to the time that we made this last con- 
 tract, about a year ago. . . + V,„r«9 
 
 The Chairman. Do you buy them outright, or do you rent them? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Buy them. , ,■ ,. 
 
 The Chairman. How about renewals and things of that kind I 
 They are protected by the patents, I presume? 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir ; I presume so. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any data to determine as to the expense 
 incident per annum for renewals, or anything? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, the contractor agrees to keep them in repair 
 for a year, to keep them going for a year, and we construe that to 
 mean he will supply all parts. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the life of a pick-up table? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, the table itself is practically indestructible. 
 It is made of steel, very strong construction, and the wearing parts, 
 aside from the rubber parts, are very durable, and I should say that 
 it would last a long time. The belt does not wear rapidly. I under- 
 stand they have worn them four or five years in the Chicago office. 
 The first pick-up tables were bought for the Treasury Department 
 and they have been improved upon from time to time, until now the 
 present table is about as near perfect as it can be made, and there 
 are no real defects that have developed. 
 
 The Chairman. After a year or more of service? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And that is the conclusion based on a year's 
 service ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. The cost to the manufacturer, have you any idea 
 what that is? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. He told me the first table cost him $22,000. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I mean the present ones you buy for $1,550. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No ; I don't know. I don't think the cost of con- 
 struction would be anything like that much ; of course there is only a 
 limited use for them. 
 
 The Chairman. The governmental use is the sole use ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Sole use; yes, sir. The manufacturer told me 
 that he had shipped one or two to England and one to Australia. 
 
 The Chairman. So that the Government is the only purchaser 
 that they have? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You say the original table cost $3,500? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No; I said he told me the original table cost him 
 $22,000. 
 
 The Chairman. No. I understand you to say the ones bought 
 by the Government? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, we bought one from an equipment com- 
 pany — I have now forgotten the name of it — the company that 
 put in the overhead conveyers and trolleys. 
 
 The Chairman. Was it the Lamson Co.? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. It was not the Lamson Co. The Lamson Co. 
 built two for Los Angeles. 
 
 The Chairman. And you are installing them as rapidly as you 
 have the money and as rapidly as conditions will warrant the growth 
 of the business? 
 
PAEOEL POST. 59 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And you believe that they are a great saving to 
 the Government? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I believe we have ordered 10 this year. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you ever had a table made shoAving the sav- 
 ing to the Government direct on the capital invested ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. We have reports of the postmasters. 
 
 The Chairman. What report do you get on the saving to the Gov- 
 ernment on the capital invested? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. The postmaster at Philadelphia reported that 
 the tables saved him two men. The average salary of an employee is 
 a little over $1,000, and the table saves the time of two men. 
 
 The Chairman. So that a cost of $1,550 saves $2,000 a year? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes ; I think that is a moderate estimate. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly give the committee as complete 
 a verbal statement as you can with reference to pneumatic conveyers 
 which might be advisable under an increased parcel-post system, 
 with a maximum weight limit of 11 pounds, the space required, and 
 in what class of offices the use of such labor-saving devices would be 
 warranted, if any. In other words, do you think you could utilize 
 the pneumatic service to advantage if your volume of business in- 
 creased under an enlargement of our present parcel-post system ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Of course I am not particularly informed as to 
 the pneumatic-tube service; that comes under the Second Assistant 
 Postmaster General ; but I should say there could be no extensive use 
 of the pneumatic-tube service, owing to the small size of the tube. 
 
 The Chairman. The cartridges? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes. Of course, if some inventor perfects a sys- 
 tem whereby a full-sized mail pouch can be used, the possibility of 
 the service will be greatly enlarged. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is there not a tube now that is being experi- 
 mented with that is 20 or 24 inches in diameter? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think not. 
 
 Senator Brtstow. I think I read something like that. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. There was a tube out at the Seattle Exposition 
 and one at Chicago where passengers were conveyed in a little car- 
 riage, but whether it was really a pneumatic tube or not, I do not 
 know. It was claimed to be a pneumatic tube. Instead of using 
 compressed air, I think the force was suction. 
 
 The Chairman. I think the cartridges that I saw in New York — 
 the maximum cartridges — were about 1\ inches inside diameter. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Just about; yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I heard there was an invention that would in- 
 crease the capacity of those tubes very largely and not increase the 
 cost of operation. I heard it was under consideration by the depart- 
 ment at one time. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, I think that is true, that there was an in- 
 ventor who claimed to have a system of utilizing suction instead of 
 compressed air, and he could operate the tube much more economi- 
 cally than under the present system, and a tube of any size. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Was that under the Second Assistant Postmaster 
 General ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think the experiment was conducted in Chicago 
 by some company — not a Government function at all. 
 
60 PAKOEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you state the weight, size, and give the 
 general character of the letter carrier's satchel, or doesn't that come 
 under your supervision? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. A letter carrier's satchel weighs about 
 4 pounds, is carried over the shoulder with a strap, and I suppose 
 will hold about 500 pieces of first-class mail, perhaps. 
 
 The Chairman. The weight is what? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, loaded, I presume a carrier's sack would 
 weigh 40 pounds, perhaps. 
 
 The Chairman. With an increased parcel-post system, would the 
 satchel have to be changed? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Not necessarily. 
 
 The Chairman. Especially if you made a segregation in delivery? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state the size and give a descrip- 
 tion of all letter and package boxes and posts now in use? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. There are two sizes of street letter boxes; I do 
 not remember the exact dimensions. I prefer to state that later. 
 
 The Chairman. If you would, kindly do so. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 The style, size, and cost of the different boxes are as follows: 
 
 No. 1 letter box, 8 by 12f by 9i inches, $3.05 each ; No. 2 letter box, 
 8 by 12§ by 13 inches, $3.05 each ; No. 3 letter box, 8 by 12f by 24 
 inches, $4.10 each; double-door box, $5.50 each; package box, $7.70 
 each ; combination letter and package box, $9.75 each. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state briefly the present method 
 of computing the compensation of postmasters ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. The fourth-class postmaster is paid on the basis 
 of the outgoing mail, as shown by the stamps affixed. He receives 
 100 per cent of the first $50 worth of stamps canceled per quarter, 
 and 60 per cent of the next $50. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The next $50 or next $100 ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. The next $100; yes; 100 per cent of the first 
 $50, that is it, and 40 per cent of the balance, and all box rents; but 
 the law stipulates the compensation shall not exceed $250 a quarter, 
 at least not more than $1,000 a year, while the office remains in the 
 fourth class. 
 
 The Chairman. And the excess goes to the Government? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes. The compensation of presidential post- 
 masters is based entirely on gross receipts, starting in with $1,900; 
 the salary is $1,000. 
 
 The Chairman. That is receipts from box rents and stamps sold? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Beceipts from all sources, except money orders. 
 
 .Senator Bristow. Doesn't this compensation of $250 per quarter, 
 of the fourth-class postmaster, have to be for four consecutive quar- 
 ters before it becomes a third-class office, so that the gross recehots 
 might be more than $1,900 and the office still remain in the fourth 
 class ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes; the receipts must be more than $250 for 
 tour consecutive quarters; I mean the compensation must amount to 
 Vo0 lor tour consecutive quarters and the gross receipts for the 
 same period amount to $1,900. 
 
 The Chairman. For the year ? 
 
PARCEL POST. 61 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes; the law ordinarily is equitable, but there 
 are certain cases where it is extremely inequitable, and for that 
 reason the department has recommended a change in the law. 
 
 The Chairman. A change consisting of what ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. That wherever the compensation amounts to 
 $1,000 per annum, based on the cancellations, and the gross receipts 
 to $1,900, then the office will be advanced to the presidential class. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If for any particular reason during the period 
 of the year there was a very large amount of mail, and then during 
 other periods of the year there was practically no mail, you would 
 still have a presidential office under that system ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. That is true; but on the other hand, Senator, we 
 have a case of this kind, or have had numerous cases, where the re- 
 ceipts sometimes amounted to as much as $6,000 per annum, but in 
 one quarter the cancellations would fall below $250, and the office 
 remained indefinitely in the fourth class. I think at West Palm 
 Beach, Fla., that condition obtained for eight or ten years. The re- 
 ceipts there amounted to almost enough to advance the office to the 
 second class, or would have been sufficient if it had ever been assigned 
 to the presidential class, but owing to the operation of this law 
 requiring that the compensation amount to $250 for each of four 
 consecutive quarters, the office could not be advanced to the presi- 
 dential class. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Don't you think that cases of that kind could 
 be corrected without a sweeping general change that would not bring 
 about so many opportunities for advancing the office to the presi- 
 dential grade, which is very desirable on the part of the fourth-class 
 postmaster, in view of his allowance, by padding his business for a 
 specific time in the year? It seems to me those are exceptional cas»s. 
 and there are only a few, and they could be met by some other legis- 
 lation, rather than by a change like this. 
 
 The Chairman. You think such changes would only exist in winter 
 or summer resorts? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes; only normally, except there they might be 
 created. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I really think the amendment suggested by the 
 department would be very advantageous to the service, and I do 
 not think it could possibly be abused. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You think it could not possibly be abused ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Perhaps I should not say it could not possibly, 
 but I can say I do not believe it would be abused. 
 
 The Chairman. I assume the quarterly minimum being established 
 was for the purpose of preventing padding. I assume that was the 
 primary reason. 
 
 Senator Bristow. As a matter of fact, is there not now and has 
 there not always been a great deal of padding in great cities, and 
 hasn't the department always been exceedingly embarrassed by this? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir; that is true, and under the present sys- 
 tem the opportunities at fourth-class post offices 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, in fact, for presidential offices? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes; third class the same way. My personal 
 opinion is, the present law regulating salaries of postmasters is very 
 defective. 
 
 The Chairman. And an invitation to fraud? 
 
62 PABCEL, POST. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. We have no possible means of obso- 
 lutely checking up the postmaster's report as to the amount of his 
 cancellations. 
 
 The Chairman. You described the fourth and third class. Will 
 you please describe the second and first class. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. At first and second class offices the salary is regu- 
 lated in the same way. An office where the receipts amount to $8,000 
 for the four quarters ending March 31 is advanced to the second 
 class. When the receipts amount to as much as $40,000, then the 
 office becomes first class. The difference between the first and second 
 class does not serve any very useful purpose; it is simply an imagi- 
 nary line. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the compensation is cumulative, dependent" 
 on the receipts? 
 
 Mr. Grandfteld. Yes, sir; at one time, to a certain extent, the 
 compensation of the employees depended on the grade of the office; 
 for instance, at a second-class office the maximum salary under the 
 present salary law for carriers and clerks is $1,000; tha,t is, the clerks 
 i.nd carriers are advanced to $1,000 after one year's service in the 
 next grade. They may be advanced, however, to $1,100 and $1,200) 
 At first-class offices the maximum salary, under the automatic pro-: 
 motion regulation, is $1,100. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly describe the method the depart- 
 ment follows in the appointment of postmasters of the presidential 
 grade? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. We keep a rating of the postmasters, and those 
 who attain a rating of "good" the department recommends for re- 
 appointment upon the expiration of their commission. In case there 
 in an actual vacancy the appointment is made, just as it has always 
 been made, on the recommendation of a Member of Congress, if he 
 happens to be a member of the President's party, and if there is no 
 such Representative in Congress it is usually made on the recom- 
 mendation of the State chairman and the national committeeman, or, 
 in case of a State having a Republican Senator, the Senator is the 
 adviser in such instances. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it the custom that the Senator always recom- 
 mends or has the naming of the postmaster in his own town? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. That is the 
 
 The Chairman. The universal custom? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. The universal custom; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. But the policy of the department is, as I under- 
 stand, a continuance in office of all individuals who have made good? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. That is the idea ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. How far would yon carry that? Up to the time- 
 of the official reaching the peak of efficiency of the service, I sup- 
 pose, the same as you would in business? t 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes. However, when a man reaches an advanced 
 age. we take that into consideration, of course. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, suppose that that policy was legalized, so 
 that the incumbent would think that he could remain there? Don't 
 you think that would rather militate against the efficiency? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think that some sort of a retirement law should 
 be enacted for the entire classified postal service. 
 
PAEOBL POST. 63 
 
 The Chairman. What is the method adopted with reference to 
 appointments in fourth-class offices? 
 
 Mr. Gkandfield. It is the same, except, of course, the postmaster's 
 term does not expire ; he is continued, you might say, during good 
 behavior. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the Member of Congress is not consulted in 
 reference to him? 
 
 Mr. Gkandfield. Only when a vacancy occurs. 
 
 The Chairman. Only when a vacancy occurs? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. How about the civil service ? Has .that anything 
 to do with it ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. In 14 States the appointment of fourth-class 
 postmasters is made under civil service rules. 
 
 The Chairman. What States? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. All States north of the Ohio and east of the 
 Mississippi. 
 
 The Chairman. Why was the limitation made? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Made on the suggestion of the Civil Service 
 Commission. 
 
 The Chairman. Themselves? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes. 
 
 Senator Brtstow. North of the Ohio? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. How do you get north of the Ohio when east of 
 the Alleghenies? What line do you draw? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, the 14 'States are the New England States, 
 New_ York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Wis- 
 consin, and Michigan. 
 
 The Chairman. As a matter of practice is that followed ? How 
 do you determine who shall be postmaster when there is a vacancy? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. If the salary is more than $500 the Civil Service 
 Commission is notified in all of the 14 States and an examination is 
 held. The commission then refers all of the several applicants' 
 papers to the department for a rating as to the facilities the ap- 
 plicants agree to provide. 
 
 The Chairman. What percentage do you call "good " ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I am speaking now of initial appointments. The 
 papers are rated with respect to facilities, as each applicant fur- 
 nishes a statement as to where he proposes to locate the offices. Now, 
 that is the rating that the department makes; then the papers go 
 back to the Civil Service Commission, and the Civil Service Com- 
 mission takes this rating on facilities, together with the rating on the 
 scholastic test, and certifies the highest eligible. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How do you ascertain this rating as to facility? 
 How do you obtain it ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. The applicant furnishes a description of the room 
 and location with reference to the business houses and the railroad 
 stations. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Each applicant does that ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Each applicant does that. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And you pass on it there in the office ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Pass on it in the department ; but, of course, I do 
 not know what the scholastic rating is or should be. The commis- 
 
64 PARCEL POST. 
 
 sion does not send the result of the examination over; they send 
 simply the papers that refer to the location of the post office. 
 
 The Chairman. Do Members of Congress interest themselves in 
 any of these appointments? 
 Mr. Grandfield. No. 
 
 The Chairman. They pay no attention to them ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No; the regulations prohibit the department from 
 considering the recommendations of a Member of Congress. 
 
 The Chairman. How has it worked? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Better than I thought it would. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why do you not apply that south of the Mason 
 and Dixon line? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. The department really was not consulted when 
 the order was issued placing those fourth-class offices under the civil 
 service; it was done entirely on the recommendations of one of the 
 members of the Civil Service Commission, and the President issued 
 the order. After the order had been issued we assisted the commis- 
 sion in drawing up the regulations. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Don't you think it would have been much better 
 to apply it to the South than to New England? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Than to New England? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, I don't know. I think as an experiment 
 it was all right to try it in the 14 States rather than the entire coun- 
 try. In the first place, the commission could not have handled the 
 business of the entire country as it was organized at the time the 
 regulations were adopted. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But the embarrassments of the recent adminis- 
 tration, at least, have been in the South in getting efficient post- 
 masters that were in harmony with the general purpose? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think in a measure that difficulty has been over- 
 come. We do not have much trouble now. I think "we have a good 
 class of postmasters in the South. 
 
 The Chairman. Under the present svstem what percentage of all 
 postmasters perform actual post-office work? 
 
 Mr. GRANnriET.n. We hope all of them clo. We have every reason 
 to believe a great majority ot them do. 
 
 . Ti 1P . Ch „ aieman - There is no appreciable proportion that is found 
 inefficient ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. We do get reports that postmasters are ineffi- 
 cient, and we make a great many changes on the inspectors' reports. 
 
 The Chairman. Any appreciable percentage of the service? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I should say possibly as many as 2 per cent of the 
 postmasters are removed for inefficiency annually. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Does that apply to the fourth-class and presi- 
 dentui] offices? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, that, of course, is a guess on my part. I do 
 not know what the figures would show. But, of course, the percent- 
 age is small. 
 
 _ Senator Bristow. You think the efficiency of the service is steadily 
 improving? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think so. I think the policy of recognizing 
 good service in retaining postmasters has had an exceedingly benefi- 
 cial effect on the service. 
 
PARCEL POST. 65 
 
 The Chairman. If the present parcel-post system was increased in 
 scope, would it be necessary to make any increase in the bonds of the 
 postmasters ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think not; the bonds are ample to cover any 
 delinquencies. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly describe the present system of 
 appointing, promoting, and substituting regular clerks and carriers? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. It is the usual civil-service method of making 
 appointments. Three names are certified; the postmaster selects 
 any one of the three for appointment as a substitute. The substi- 
 tutes are given a standing in the order of appointment, and the first 
 appointed becomes senior substitute, and he is appointed to the first 
 regular vacancy that occurs. 
 
 The Chairman. Then it is automatic ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Automatic ; yes, sir. It is absolutely impartial. 
 
 The Chairman. You think their duties would be more difficult 
 under increasing the scope of the present 4-pound parcel-post law? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No ; I think not. I think it would benefit the sub- 
 stitute and furnish him more employment. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think there should be any increase in 
 compensation if the scope of the parcel-post law were increased ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No ; I do not think it should have any particular 
 bearing on the question of compensation. 
 
 The Chairman. Provided the scope of the present law was in- 
 creased by increasing the weight to 11 pounds and decreasing the 
 postage, would you think it a good plan to increase the force of sub- 
 stitute clerks and carriers at the various post offices in order that 
 help of some experience might be at hand when required ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, of course, that would depend entirely on 
 the extent of the service how large an increase in the force it would 
 necessitate. 
 
 The Chairman. I can not conceive how there would be a sudden 
 flood of business: I think it would be gradually cumulative, and that 
 the department would have no trouble whatever in keeping up with 
 the increase in the business Avith its present machinery, adding to it 
 if necessary. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. If you simply mean increasing the limit of weight 
 from 4 to 11 pounds without decreasing the postage, I think your 
 theory might be correct. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, but there would necessarily be a decrease in 
 postage, and at the same time I do not think the mere increase in 
 weight limit would be any great addition to the general welfare. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think this illustrates what I have in mind : If 
 the postage on first-class mail were reduced from 2 cents to 1 cent, 
 my judgment is that it would increase the volume of letter mail 
 enormously. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that is interesting. I would like to know 
 on what process you figure that out. The big merchants use the first- 
 class mail proportionately far more than any other individuals, do 
 they not ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 The Chairman. Do the}'- not use the mails just the same under a 
 2-cent rate as they would under a 1-cent rate ? It is increased business 
 
 21845— vol 1—12 5 
 
66 PARCEL POST. 
 
 that they are after all the time. It would be a saving to them in the 
 balance at the end of the year, undoubtedly, but I do not see where 
 you can anticipate a tremendous increase in the volume of business. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. The reduction of the postage would make it possi- 
 ble to cut the cost of their advertising in half, and naturally they 
 could increase the advertising just 100 per cent. 
 
 Senator Bristow. As a matter of fact, in their advertising do they 
 not use the circular, which is 1-cent postage, very much ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. They do. But, on the other hand, a large part 
 of the first-class matter is advertising matter. I know in my personal 
 experience at my home I get 10 circulars as first-class mail where I 
 get 1 as third class. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is because the more expensive the mail the 
 advertiser thinks the recipient will give it more attention, because it 
 has 2 cents on it instead of 1 ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Undoubtedly; and therefore a reduction of the 
 rate to 1 cent would increase that mail enormously. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It would increase sealed mail? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes; it might have the effect of decreasing the 
 third class. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is, the rate being the same, they would seal 
 it all instead of saving a cent by sending a circular. I think, Doctor, 
 you anticipate a very much greater increase than would occur. I 
 think there would be a gradual growth in the number of pieces. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I should say the increase would be instantaneous, 
 just as it would in the parcel post. If the postage was made low 
 enough, the increase in the volume of fourth-class mail would be 
 enormous, and it would not be a gradual growth ; it would be instan- 
 taneous on the reduction of the postage. Of course, there would be 
 a growth afterwards, but the increase at the beginning would be 
 tremendous. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, it would depend on your classification? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Undoubtedly. 
 
 The Chairman. The classification of the materials you could 
 convey ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I should think in fixing a rate of postage the 
 Congress might well fix a maximum rate and allow the department 
 to reduce it within Gertain limits after it had been in operation a 
 little while. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Doctor, when was the 2-cent rate of postage 
 inaugurated ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think it was in 1883. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Will you describe briefly what bonds are now 
 furnished by clerks and carriers and in approximately what amount? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Postmasters' bonds range from $500, at fourth 
 class, to $200,000 at a first-class office; that is, the maximum bond 
 is $200,000 and the minimum bond $500. The bonds are regulated 
 by the amount of business, both postal and money order, and the 
 frequency of deposits. Clerks give bond dependent on their financial 
 responsibilities ; their bonds range from $500 to possibly $40,000 in 
 the case of cashiers in some of the larger offices. Letter carriers 
 idve a $1,000 bond. Either personal or corporate sureties are ac- 
 cepted in the case of clerks and letter carriers and in the case of 
 
PARCEL POST. 67 
 
 postmasters at first and second class offices. At third and fourth 
 class offices only personal sureties are accepted. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the method now followed in making 
 allowances for help, etc., to postmasters ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. At third-class post offices the allowances for clerk 
 hire are regulated by law ; that is, Congress fixes the maximum that 
 may be allowed for regular clerk hire. In addition we have a regu- 
 lation, which has the force of law, because Congress requires the 
 Postmaster General to promulgate this regulation, fixing the maxi- 
 mum amount that may be allowed for separating service to the post- 
 masters at fourth-class offices, where the post office is located at the 
 intersection of mail routes and handles what is known as transit 
 mail; that is, mail that does not originate in his office nor does it 
 stop there ; it passes through, and consequently does not show on 
 his cancellations, and he receives nothing for handling it, so that 
 Congress has made an appropriation and given the Postmaster Gen- 
 eral authority to make allowances for handling this transit mail. 
 That appropriation, I think, is about $700,000 for the entire service. 
 
 The Chairman. Who makes the selection; the postmaster in 
 charge from recommendations to the Postmaster General? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. You mean the allowance? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; the amount. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. The amount is fixed in this way : The postmaster 
 is required to keep a record of the number of pieces, you know. 
 
 The Chairman. The number of sacks, I suppose ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No ; the number of pieces. It is not a large busi- 
 ness, you know. It is the number of pieces handled daily for a 
 week, and on that we strike an average ; then he is required by the 
 regulations to keep a record of the number of registered pieces in 
 transit; that is a factor in determining the allowance, and then on 
 a basis of this kind the allowance is made ; the allowance ranges from 
 $30 a year to probably $300; it is very small. Then at the third- 
 class office the allowance, as I have said, is based on the salary of the 
 postmaster — that is, Congress fixes a limit as to the maximum al- 
 lowance that may be made. It runs from $100 at the smaller grade 
 third-class offices to $500 at the largest. The largest amount that 
 may be allowed at any third-class office for clerk hire is $500. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is that a regulation? 
 
 Mr. Grakdfield. That is an act of Congress. 
 
 The Chairman. There would be no necessity of changing the 
 method if the present parcel-post system were increased? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No; that would not necessitate any change in the 
 allowances or salaries, or in the law governing salaries. 
 
 The Chairman. Would it necessitate any change in the revising 
 of necessary blank forms and involving new rules and regulations 
 and limitations under the present parcel-post system, or would you 
 go on under the present machinery that you have with your 4-pound 
 
 limit? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Oh, I think under the present machinery there 
 would be no difficulty whatever as to third and fourth class post 
 offices in handling possibly a large increase in the business. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it your opinion, Doctor, that warehouses would 
 have to be established in any of the large cities if the scope of the 
 present parcel post were increased along the lines indicated? 
 
68 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, of course, that would depend altogether on 
 how much business was done. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, there would not be any great difficulty if 
 that were the case, Avould there ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. In getting the warehouses ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No. It would take time and money, of course. 
 
 The Chairman. What percentage of maximum peak of operation 
 do you think your first-class offices now work under on an average 
 during the whole of the year? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, that is a hard question to answer. Of 
 course, every post office must be manned to handle the maximum 
 amount of business. 
 
 The Chairman. When does that come? During the holidays? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, as a rule ; it comes during the holidays in all 
 offices, but in certain offices, you know, the business is all done in the 
 wintertime, and at certain other offices all done in the summer time. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I was in New York a little while ago and 
 went in the post office there, and upon inquiry I ascertained that 
 probably the volume of business at that time that I was there was 
 about 50 per cent of what they could handle. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. In July and August that is true. But, on the 
 other hand, the clerks and letter carriers are allowed their vacations 
 in July and August. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it your opinion the increased scope of the pres- 
 ent parcel-post system .would be greatest at about the holiday time? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes; I think it would. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Would it increase the congestion or the ratio of 
 congestion during the holiday season ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes; unquestionably. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The congestion now is largely package mail, 
 isn't it? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And it would very greatly enlarge that ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. But suppose that an immediate or an early de- 
 livery charge was adopted so there would be segregation in the 
 handling as to time? Those who wanted a speedy delivery could pay 
 an additional charge. Wouldn't that tend to relieve the congestion? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No ; I think it would tend to accentuate it. 
 
 The Chairman. Accentuate the irritation, possibly. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No ; the congestion. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think it would ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I do. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You think if there were a larger fee charged for 
 immediate delivery than for delivery within a week that there would 
 be more demand for immediate delivery ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I simply meant that it would increase the conges- 
 tion because it would increase the number of men necessarv to be 
 employed to deliver it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose, if I understand Senator Bourne, that 
 upon the payment of an additional amount of postage that imme- 
 diate delivery upon arrival would be secured, otherwise it would be 
 discretionary with the postmaster as to whether he would send that 
 
PARCEL POST. 69 
 
 out until his force could conveniently distribute it during this con- 
 ( gestion period. Would such a provision as that have a tendency to 
 congest the mails, more or less? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think it would tend to congest the mails, be- 
 cause it would necessitate a search of all the mail to find this special- 
 delivery matter, just as it does now in case of special-delivery mail; 
 , there must be a search made for that upon the arrival of the 'mail so 
 that it can be sent out immediately. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is a special-delivery letter put in with all other 
 letters and do they have to go through all of them to find out if there 
 are any special-delivery letters there? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. In a sense, yes. The method is like this: The 
 •special delivery stamped letter is put on top of the packages and 
 those packages are put in on top of hundreds and hundreds of other 
 packages, so every package must be examined to see if there is a 
 special delivery on top as soon as it comes in. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you recommend any distinction in refer- 
 ence to transmission or nontransmission of parcels on Sunday over 
 week days? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I would be governed largely in that case by the 
 transportation facilities. I would not put on extra trains ; I would 
 not advocate putting on extra trains to handle parcels on Sunday, 
 but on the other hand, where railroads handle trains on Sunday any- 
 way we might take advantage of it. 
 The Chairman. Make no distinction? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Make no distinction in that regard. Fewer mail 
 trains are operated on Sunday and there has been a decided reduction 
 in the amount of Sunday work done in the post offices within the last 
 year. 
 
 The Chairman. With perfect satisfaction, so far as you know, to 
 the public generally? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think we receive 10 letters of commendation 
 where we receive 1 of complaint. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You do receive a good many domplaints, don't 
 you? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Surprisingly few, Senator, considering the ex- 
 tent the Sunday service has been curtailed. 
 
 The Chairman. Has a good deal of it come from the postal clerks, 
 the complaints? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No complaint whatever from the postal clerks. 
 In fact resolutions expressing their hearty appreciation of the action 
 taken by the department in giving them one day's rest in seven have 
 been received. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, I would be glad to hear any general state- 
 ment you may have to make in your own way, your own opinion and 
 your own conclusion regarding the parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, personally, I think the department's plan 
 of conducting an experiment of the parcel post on the rural routes 
 and of a local parcel post in the cities and city delivery offices, which 
 might readily be done in a short space of time, would furnish Con- 
 gress more reliable information than could be obtained in any other 
 way, and I do not see how it would be possible to fix on a definite rate 
 of postage for a general parcel post without some sort of an experi- 
 ment of that kind. 
 
70 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, but what benefit is your experiment going 
 to be if you do not make some increase in your weight and some de- 
 crease in your cost ? . , , ■■ i i . , 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. But I think the experiment should be conducted 
 along these lines— that is to say, make a reduction 
 
 The Chairman. What reduction ? 
 
 Mr Grandfield. Well, I do not know. I am not prepared to say 
 as to that. I have an idea that a very material reduction could be 
 made, and I should say the best way would be to experiment with 
 different rates ; in one city fix the rate at so much per pound and in 
 another city so much per pound. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you have authority to do that under the 
 
 law? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Certainly not. That is the reason we have asked 
 for the authority repeatedly. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you like authority for designation as to 
 the different postal rates in different parts of the country? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. As an experiment ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. For what period? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. The local rate just the same as we now have a 
 local rate on what are known as drop letters. A drop letter at a 
 nonfree delivery office is carried at the rate of 1 cent. 
 
 The Chairman. That is under the authority of Congress? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. There was no discretion given by Congress when 
 that was inaugurated, was there? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Oh, no. My idea would be that the Postmaster 
 General might safely be given discretion to fix arbitrarily a rate of 
 postage on local mail, in one, two, or a dozen offices,- or as many as 
 Congress thought it advisable to conduct an experiment, and in that 
 way you would have reliable information as to what would result 
 from a decreased rate and an increase in the weight limit. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, to make his deductions on that from all 
 the rest of the country ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Surely. 
 
 The Chairman. So, why can we not make the same deductions 
 from the experience other nations have had? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I do not think any other nation can tell you off- 
 hand of any other way whether the parcel post is profitable, or if 
 unprofitable, how much they lose. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose we already had that information? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Then you have something to work on. But the 
 conditions are so different and the population so scattered in some 
 sections of this country. 
 
 The Chairman. But the information is obtainable as to the popu- 
 lation per square mile and the number of square miles and the trans- 
 portation facilities in these different countries. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I would say, if you take 15 countries in Europe 
 covering an area equal to that of the United States and combine the 
 entire postal system you might have some basis on which to work. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you can get at it. It is not a new subject? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No; it is not a new subject. Now, if B.ussia had 
 a parcel post extending over Siberia, there you would, have a country 
 that might compare with this country. 
 
PARCEL POST. 71 
 
 The Chairman. Then you think you would obtain valuable in- 
 formation from Russia? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I am afraid not. I would not want to act on it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, Doctor, will you recommend the establish- 
 ment of a parcel post in certain cities ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. As an experiment? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now what city would you suggest ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Now, I should say New York would be about the 
 most difficult one in which to operate a local parcel post. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, where would you confine the operation of 
 that parcel post in New York. To the city limits? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, I say that would be the most difficult. I 
 would hesitate to take New York. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, name one. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I should say Boston, in which conditions are 
 somewhat similar to New York, and it has a large number of stations; 
 in that way, you would not only obtain information as to the opera- 
 tion of a parcel post locally, but to post offices within 15 or 20 miles 
 of the main office. Boston is somewhat different from any other post 
 office. It has a large number of independent stations connected in the 
 system called branch offices. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is all the Boston post office? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. All the Boston postal district; but much of the 
 territory is outside of the limits of Boston proper. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, the information you would get would be 
 local? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir ; it would be local largely, but you Avould 
 also get information as to the transmission of parcels between con- 
 tiguous post offices. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Within a very limited area? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. One living in New York, or Portland, Me., or 
 Philadelphia could not get any advantage of this local parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Oh, no. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It would be local delivery? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. It would be local delivery. It would supplant, or 
 it would be somewhat similar to the so-called merchants parcel de- 
 livery in the city, except that it would be used by the people rather 
 than by the business houses. 
 
 Senator Bristoav. As to the handling of the parcel post by the 
 Railway Mail Service or the rural communities, or between stations, 
 why, of course, you would get no information at all. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. None whatever ; no. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It would be simply an experiment in the deliver- 
 ing of parcels there, which is a very small part, isn't it, of the postal 
 establishment ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No. I should say that would be the biggest part 
 of the parcel post — handling parcels in the big city post office, their 
 collection in the city, and their distribution by carriers. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you regard the transportation then over this 
 extended area, or a limited area, as it might be, from State to State, 
 or from coast to coast, and the Railway Mail Service, the star-route 
 service as an unimportant part of it? 
 
72 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Oh, no; not unimportant, but the easiest part of 
 the problem to solve. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, what is the difficulty of the problem in 
 solving a parcel post, if it is simply a question of local delivery or 
 collection ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfiekd. Well. I think that is a very important problem 
 to solve. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, you have the establishment now. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. The weakest part of the postal system now, to 
 my mind, is the city-delivery service, the delivery of mail by letter 
 carriers. That is the weakest service we have. 
 
 Senator Brtstow. Where is its weakness? In what respect is it 
 weak ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. We have 30,000 men delivering mail and collect- 
 ing mail on the street with comparatively little supervision. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, you have an absolute check on them in the 
 amount of mail they take, the length of time that they are out, 
 and their hours of service? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Surely. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not see why you would require any greater 
 supervision than you have. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But the problem of parcel post, as I understand 
 it, has not been the local delivery, because you can deliver as you do 
 by wagons and you can collect by wagons, if the volume justifies it, 
 or you can deliver by foot men. That depends upon the necessities 
 of the service, but the hesitancy in the adoption of the parcel post 
 is in the transportation of it, the handling and hauling of it, the 
 merchandise, over long distances as mail. Nobody has ever questioned 
 the practicability of establishing parcel post in a thickly inhabited 
 country, such as Boston, because it is clone the world over and has 
 been worked out. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. That is the very hardest part of it. I should say 
 that the fourth-class post offices, third-class post offices, the star route 
 and rural routes would handle the business readily. It does not 
 require any experiment to determine that they can. We feel sure that 
 they can, but the big city office that is now frequently congested with 
 mail, that is crowded for room, where complaints about infrequent 
 deliveries occur quite often, that is the branch of the service where 
 the trouble, if any, would arise, in my judgment. 
 
 The Chairman. Then in that event we have got illustrations in 
 Europe that are exactly similar, because of the dense population and 
 small distances, and the Boston experiment has been made by nearly 
 every continental country, and all we have to do is to examine them 
 and see what troubles they have had. I have understood that the 
 problem that has caused the American people to hesitate on a parcel- 
 post system has been the fees necessary to charge on account of the 
 more or less sparsely settled regions of the country and the long dis- 
 tances mail would have to be transported and you would get no 
 information whatever about that in a local experiment, it seems to me. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think so. I think you would. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Haven't we got that though in England, for in- 
 stance, in Great Britain? 
 
 The Chairman. You have got it in London, the largest city in 
 the world, and you have got it in every European capital. 
 
PARCEL POST. 73 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. It seems to me the first thing that would have 
 to be considered would be the volume of business. Well, if you have 
 a local parcel post in a few cities, it seems to me you would have 
 something on which to base an estimate as to the probable volume 
 of business. Having ascertained the volume of business, then the 
 question of rates could be determined with some degree of accuracy. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, would not the greater volume of business 
 be from one city to another, and not within the environments of 
 one metropolis? Wouldn't it be from New York to a thousand 
 cities, more than in Boston, or from one State to another ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. My idea of a parcel post is this: There should 
 be two rates. I think there should be a local rate, because I see no 
 reason why a man mailing a parcel in Washington for delivery here 
 should pay the same rate as if he was mailing it for delivery in 
 Alaska. 
 
 Senator Bristow. T agree with you in regard to that, but I do not 
 see where you would get the information on a local experiment on 
 a question of that kind, and that is the most important question in 
 this matter. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. If you can determine the cost of delivering a 
 parcel in the city of Washington, exclusive of the cost of transport- 
 ing it by mail, I think you would have obtained a very desirable 
 start in the matter of fixing the rate. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, now, that is a local matter that can be 
 ascertained. That is easy. We can get all the information we want 
 in regard to that. 
 
 The Chairman. You have got that information now, in the inter- 
 national postal convention, the 11-pound rate there. Is it not true 
 that the estimate of the department is that fourth-class postal mat- 
 ter now costs the Government less than 12 cents per pound ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And that is, taking into consideration simply the 
 amount received and the amount expended with no allowances for 
 any indirect benefit from ether branches of the service as to the 
 fourth-class matter? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. So that your figures are the utmost limit that 
 you could have, as to the expense? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Undoubtedly, a very large increase in all' of the 
 fourth-class matter handled would decrease the cost. 
 
 The Chairman. Decrease the cost? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think that is true ; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Wouldn't you have much more information on 
 the subject, if, for instance, you increased the weight a pound at a 
 time, or '2 pounds at a time, and you decreased the price a cent at a 
 time or 2 cents at a time, than you would by the establishment of 
 your plan of experimental stations in a thousand cities and on the 
 rural delivery route? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think so. But, on the other hand, it would 
 not require a very extended experiment to determine a great many 
 things we do not know. 
 
 The Chairman. I concur with Senator Bristow. I do not see 
 where you get any information that is not obtainable now, by the adop- 
 
74 PARl'UL POST. 
 
 lion of your plan. That is, any information of value on the general 
 question, from your experiment as you have outlined m, say, Boston. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Now, take the statistics for London, for instance. 
 There is no citv in this country that compares with London, except 
 New York, and you can not compare New York with Los Angeles, 
 because in New York 1 letter carrier will serve 2,000 people and make 
 8 deliveries a day, while in Los Angeles a letter carrier will serve 
 1,000 and make only 2 deliveries. 
 
 The Chairman. You have that information now? 
 
 Mr. Geandfield. Yes. But how can you compare the British sta- 
 tistics over such a small area with a big country like this? 
 
 The Chairman. By simply ascertaining what the territory is; the 
 number of people served by each individual. When you get the 
 information it is easy to collate it and compare it, whether it is 
 information about a European country or any city in the United 
 States, it seems to me. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The point that bothers me in this experimental 
 suggestion is, how are we to get any information on questions that 
 we are in doubt about? That is, I do not believe that the rate 
 from New York to San Francisco ought to be the same as the rate 
 from New York to Philadelphia or Eochester or Albany, but your 
 local experiment don't give me any information on that. 
 
 Mr. Geandfield. Not on that point ; no. But it does give you in- 
 formation as to what it will cost to handle parcels in large quantities 
 in a city. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, that is easily ascertained, it seems to me, 
 because that is done in so many places. 
 
 The Chairman. You have the information to-day on that under 
 your 4-pound limit, it seems to me. The information you want to 
 get is what the increased volume of business will be : what increase of 
 governmental machinery will be required, what the decreased cost 
 in operation will be, so as to ascertain just how far you can serve 
 the general welfare by increasing your scope and decreasing your 
 cost. Those are the main points to be covered and the only points 
 that I can see. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Doctor, of course you do not contemplate merely 
 by this experiment a kind of local delivery service, similar to what 
 the merchant's parcel delivery makes or the grocery stores would 
 make — by delivery wagons? You do not contemplate experimenting 
 with a thing like that, do you? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think so. We would not expect to carry 
 groceries, or we would not expect to take over the package delivery 
 business of Woodward & Lothrop's, but we would expect the people 
 to use this service instead of calling in a messenger. . 
 
 Senator Bristow. My conception of a parcel post is entirely difi 
 ferent from that. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose Congress authorizes you to carry out 
 your own ideas. What would you do? The present rate is 16 cents 
 a pound ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. What would be your first step in reduction, of rate 
 in Boston? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, I would agree to deliver packages in Bos- 
 ton for 10 cents. 
 
PAKCEL POST. 75 
 
 The Chairman. A pound ? 
 
 _ Mr. Grandfield. No; not a pound, because it is just as easy to de- 
 liver 10-pound packages as 1-pound packages ; it would not cost any 
 more. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you would make 10 cents your minimum ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Make 10 cents a minimum charge. 
 
 The Chairman. What would be your pound basis — 10 cents? 
 Your minimum would be 10 cents ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No ; say 10 cents for 5 pounds and anything over 
 5 pounds an additional cent or two. We will say 10 cents for any- 
 thing weighing 5 pounds or less and a cent a pound after that up to 
 11 pounds ; or, better still, 10 cents for 6 pounds or less and a cent a 
 pound up to 11 pounds, which would make a maximum charge of 15 
 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. For what reason have you decided on 10 cents as 
 a minimum charge? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. For experiment I would use 10 cents and 15 
 cents, because it is easy to make change, and I think the actual cost 
 of delivery would be in the neighborhood of 10 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. Based on the fact that the express companies take 
 10 cents within certain zones as a minimum price ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Candidly, I think it could be carried cheaper 
 than that, but I would start in with that price. 
 
 The Chairman. To be on the safe side? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. To be on the safe side ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And I think that would be the desire of Con- 
 gress, to be on the safe side. I would say frankly I do not concur 
 at all in your method of getting at the thing. My method would be 
 entirely different, but we do concur absolutely on being on the safe 
 side. I am only speaking for myself in that matter. What on your 
 rural deliveries, Doctor ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. AYell, the same kind of an experiment, the same 
 way. 
 
 The Chairman. The minimum being what in weight and cost? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Say, 6 pounds for 10 cents, and a cent for each 
 additional pound up to 11 pounds; that is, if you propose to limit 
 it to 11 pounds. If I were conducting experiments, I would not limit 
 it to 11 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Initiating and ending on the same route? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What limit would you place on it ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I do not see any particular advantage in 11 
 pounds. I think the limit is too low. I should say, on a rural route, 
 I would experiment with different weights if I were conducting ex- 
 periments. 
 
 The Chairman. And a different classification as to matter on rural 
 routes from cities? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. You would have two services, one rural and one 
 city? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I would have three — city service, rural service, 
 and a general system. The general system would be built up as a 
 result of experiment on the two local services. 
 
76 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You would not have in mind any experiments on 
 a general system ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I do not see how an experiment on a general sys- 
 tem could be conducted. 
 
 The Chairman. It would be absolutely feasible, wouldn't it, to 
 start in. to lake the present system, make the weight 5 pounds insiead 
 of 4 pounds and make the cost 15 cents instead of 16 cents, and when 
 it was found that the Government with its present machinery could 
 handle that then increase the weight another pound and decrease 
 the cost another cent ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. It might take some time? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I would not define it as a parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, what do you define the present 4-pound 
 weight limit and 16 cents a pound cost — fourth-class matter and not 
 a parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, it is not generally accepted as a parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, definitions as to what constitute a parcel 
 post would vary, of course, and they vary in different countries. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir ; but on a rural route I should say I do 
 not see any reason why it would not be advisable to try experiments 
 on carrying parcels up to 50 pounds in weight. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The trouble is you will have to give the rural 
 man a two-horse team and wagon. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, if the service justified it, why not? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, that is a matter of opinion. 
 
 The Chairman. I am very strongly in favor of this country fol- 
 lowing, evolving, and adopting the most efficient and practicable 
 parcel post that conditions will permit, so that Ave would have equal 
 or better service than any other country. I agree with you on that, 
 but I do not agree with you on your method of initiation. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, now, why? What reason is there for mak- 
 ing 11 pounds the maximum weight limit? 
 
 The Chairman. Simply as a matter of convenience. Simply be- 
 cause you have that limitation under your international convention. 
 It is merely to get a start, and then as the development of your sys- 
 tem and administration increased, why, develop your service. The 
 desideratum being to give the people the very best that the Govern- 
 ment possibly can. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. The reason that I think that it would be better 
 to start in with the rural service is because we already have the 
 machinery. 
 
 The Chairman. You would have it from either viewpoint you have 
 given of it? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. And would be supplying a facility that does not 
 exist at the present time. There is no means by which a farmer can 
 send a small package into the city from a rural route except at an 
 extravagant rate of postage, which is prohibitive. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you make your zone limit on your rural 
 route 30 miles? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No. Anyone living on a rural route could dis- 
 
 fatch a package on that route, but no farther than the route extended. 
 f I conducted the experiment, I would vary the weight on the differ- 
 
PARCEL POST. 77 
 
 ent routes, and I would try to -find out what the maximum weight 
 should be. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Doctor, with your experiment now, if you made 
 it out of Philadelphia, where the rural carrier used to run a truck 
 wagon, that has been demonstrated, if the rural carrier will take 
 packages he can get lots of business, for he used to do it for the fee. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But out in Kansas or Nebraska he would not 
 get any fee, because the system was not practicable. Now, your 
 experiment in Philadelphia would demonstrate one thing that would 
 not be of any use in four-fifths of the country 1 
 
 Mr. Gkandfield. We could have one experiment there, another in 
 Arizona, and perhaps one in California. 
 
 The Chairman. You could not have a hundred different systems 
 existing over the country unless you took and made an infinite num- 
 ber of zones, which would be very confusing and to my mind abso- 
 lutely impracticable. I think you have got to have a general sys- 
 tem and then a small zone for your rural route. I think there should 
 be a distinction. 
 
 Mr. Gkandfield. Suppose the Postmaster General was authorized 
 to try an experimental parcel post on a hundred different routes in 
 different sections of the country. Now, wouldn't he in that way 
 cover the entire country? Couldn't he, I should say, cover the en- 
 tire country, and as a result of the experiment he could furnish Con- 
 gress with accurate information on each route, and a general conclu- 
 sion as to the whole country could be drawn, not only as to the proper 
 postal charge, but what would be a profitable charge and what the 
 limit of weight should be. It might be that 50 pounds would be the 
 limit of weight in Kansas ; in Philadelphia 10 pounds or 12 pounds 
 or 25 pounds would be the limit of weight, and therefore the service, 
 to make it uniform, would have to be averaged. 
 
 The Chairman. I think you could get information that would be 
 just as reliable as you would obtain from your system of averages by 
 the line you have indicated from the experience of other countries 
 and a careful study of the difference in conditions in this country 
 and in other countries, and with the familiarity you already have and 
 the information you already have as to the practicable operation of 
 your department 1 at the present time. 
 
 Mr. Gkandfield. Well, it seems to me the first thing yon would 
 have to know would be how much business would be transacted. The 
 experience of foreign countries would not be of the slightest benefit 
 to you, because nobody could tell now how much business was thrown 
 on the service in the beginning. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; we have the information of a number of 
 countries as to the amount of business transacted when the parcel 
 post was inaugurated, and the increase in that particular business 
 during certain periods afterwards. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. That information is largely statistical, compiled, 
 no doubt, from an increase in the postal revenue, which really would 
 not give the information that you want as to how much additional 
 force would be required the first year. 
 
 The Chairman. What additional appropriation would your de- 
 partment desire to make these experiments, and how long a period 
 of time, in your judgment, would be required to complete the experi- 
 ment satisfactorily'? 
 
78 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I should say that the experiment could be con- 
 ducted and completed in six months, and that $100,000 would be 
 sufficient. ■ 
 
 The Chairman. What information would you have after the six 
 months, in addition to what you have at this present time ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. We would know what should be the limit of 
 weight on a rural route, what should be the limit of weight in a city; 
 how much business a certain rate of postage would bring ; how much 
 another rate would bring, etc. 
 
 The Chairman. How much do you imagine the public would util- 
 ize these experimental services — to what extent over and above what 
 they do now ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, I do not know; but I think they would 
 utilize it to the fullest extent, just as soon as the public knew the 
 rate of postage and the regulations governing the transmission of 
 parcels in the city, and they would take full advantage of it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What would you want with $100,000? What 
 would you do with it ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, $50,000 in the City Delivery Service ; that 
 would pay the salaries of, say, 100 carriers and the expenses of 
 teams. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, the carriers are there now. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I know, but the carriers are working right now 
 to the limit ; working eight hours a day and carrying all the load they 
 can. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes; but you would simply need an additional 
 appropriation for carriers in the event it was required. Now, in 
 the rural mail service, how would you spend $50,000 there? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Well, in the contingency you mention of loading 
 the carrier down with a two-horse wagon load, we might want to 
 put on a high-power automobile, if the business justified it, if it paid 
 revenue sufficient to pay for the machine ; why not ? I don't know 
 about the rural service, and I have made no estimate, but in the city 
 service, I should say $50,000 would be a sufficient sum to use in con- 
 ducting the experiment. The Government could not lose anything, 
 because the additional revenue would more than pav the added cost 
 of $50,000. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Providing you add the additional revenue and 
 providing you get the rate ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. If we had no additional revenue, there would be 
 no additional expense. One would necessarily follow the other. 
 
 <fc K ^ a Q 0r Bristow - Yo11 would have the additional expense of 
 $50,000 s 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Not necessarily. We could not spend it if there 
 was no business to secure. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. If the people did not take advantage of the op- 
 portunity to send packages in a city by mail there would be no ex- 
 pense attached, because the present carriers could handle what little 
 business came in. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is, the present business? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Yes. But if they did take advantage of it and 
 the postage on the packages amounted to $1,000 or $2,000 a day, cer- 
 
PARCEL POST. 79 
 
 tainly there would be some expense attached to it. That is what the 
 $50,000 would be for — to hire wagons and additional men. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If you inaugurated a system of 10 cents for G 
 pounds, you would cut down the rate from 16 cents to 10 cents? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No; we would not cut down the rate, because 
 there are no packages transmitted in the city at the present rate ; we 
 don't have them. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You don't have them? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No. You must hire a messenger now. 
 
 Senator Bristow. So if you had a general parcel post of 10 cents 
 a pound with an 11-pound weight limit, you would not increase your 
 city delivery very extensively? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. No ; not at all. Oh, perhaps, to a certain extent. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Not so as to congest. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think there are three propositions. I think 
 there are three services — the rural service, the city service, and a 
 general parcel post. I think the two first — the rural service and the 
 city service — should be 
 
 The Chairman. Experimented with? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is there any demand on the part of residents of 
 cities that the Government deliver packages for them? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. I think so. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is a new idea to me. Now, here is the 
 merchant's parcels delivery. Would you simply perform for the 
 people of Washington or Boston business that they are doing ? 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. If you send a package home, do you use the Mer- 
 chant's Parcel Delivery? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, I never have. 
 
 Mr. Grandfield. Nobody else but the merchants have. If you or 
 I were to send a package home we would have to call a telegraph 
 messenger to make the delivery at a charge of from 30 to 40 cents. 
 Now, I think that is a proper function for the department to per- 
 form. I think there is a demand for it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If you want to run a grocery wagon and deliver 
 flour it would be more practicable. 
 
 The Chairman. Doctor, we are very much obliged to you. That 
 is all we want. 
 
 (Whereupon, at 2 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned.) 
 
FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 10, 1911. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman) and Senator 
 Joseph L. Bristow. . 
 
 The Chairman. In order to economize time, I will ask you, Mr. 
 Stewart, to first reply to the questions I am about to ask, and after- 
 wards we will be glad to listen to any general statement you may 
 desire to make. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF HON. JOSEPH STEWART, SECOND ASSISTANT POST- 
 MASTER GENERAL. 
 
 (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Kindly state your age and present position in the 
 Post Office Department. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Fifty-two years of age; Second Assistant Postmaster 
 General. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you occupied that position ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Since September, 1908. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state, as well as you can from 
 memory, the total length of your service in the Post Office Depart- 
 ment, designating the positions you have held and the time you have 
 served in each. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Approximately about 20 years, holding the posi- 
 tions of the ordinal clerk, assistant superintendent of railway ad- 
 justments, law clerk to the Second Assistant Postmaster General, 
 superintendent of railway adjustments, and Second Assistant Post- 
 master General. 
 
 The Chairman. Does the Postmaster -General enter into definite 
 written contracts with the railways for the transportation of the 
 mails at certain rates or for a certain price over their lines, or is this 
 matter covered by an order of the department ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. He does not enter into a formal contract such as is 
 ordinarily regarded in that sense. His contract is one which is con- 
 stituted by the terms of the statute, the regulations of the depart- 
 ment, the agreements of the companies to perform service in ac- 
 cordance with those statutory requirements and regulations, and an 
 adjustment made by him upon the ascertainment of the average 
 daily weight carried over a route and the fixing of the pay in ac- 
 cordance with the statutes upon those weights and the acceptance of 
 the company and the performance of the service under those condi- 
 tions. The fixing t>f the pay is made by an order of the Postmaster 
 General. It is first made by an order of the Second Assistant Post- 
 master General, and it is afterwards placed on the journal of the 
 Postmaster General, where it is formally signed by him. A copy of 
 the adjustment is sent to the railroad company when it is made. It is 
 done at the beginning of each contract term/which is for the period 
 of four years. 
 
 The Chairman. Does the railroad company give its consent to the 
 issuance of the order; if so, in what manner?" 
 SO 
 
PARCEL POST. 81 
 
 Mr. Stewart. As a rule all railroads whose pay is adjusted in that 
 way have been carrying the mails under similar orders in the past, or 
 under an order authorizing the service and the fixing of the pay at the 
 minimum rate provided by statute, $42.75 per mile per annum. The 
 manner in which the new arrangement is entered into is as follows: 
 Preceding the 1st of July, the beginning of the new contract term, 
 the Second Assistant Postmaster General sends to the railroad com- 
 pany what we call a distance circular. It is a form which we have 
 providing for a statement of the stations on the road, the distances 
 between the stations, the total distance, and opposite this 
 
 The Chairman. That is the total distance of the route ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir; the total distance of the route. Opposite 
 the stations the post offices on the route and the distances from the 
 station to the post office in each case are stated. The circular also 
 has what we call the agreement clause, which is to the effect that if 
 the Postmaster General orders the service, the company agrees to 
 -perform it in accordance with the postal laws and regulations. 
 
 The Chairman. Their acceptance of the contract binds them under 
 that agreement clause ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir; and an executive officer of the railroad 
 company signs that agreement clause when the circular is filled out 
 by the company for return to the department. At about the same 
 time the company is informed that the general superintendent of 
 the Railway Mail Service has been instructed to weigh the mails on 
 that route in accordance with law for not less than 90 consecutive 
 working days for the purpose of ascertaining the average daily 
 weight of mails passing over the route. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the law — 90 consecutive working days ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. In order to secure the weights upon which 
 to make the readjustment for the next term beginning July 1 suc- 
 ceeding, the general superintendent of the Railway Mail Service is 
 directed a short time before the weighing period begins to weigh the 
 mails upon that road for the required period, which he does by 
 sworn employees of the department who are employed for that pur- 
 pose. The weights are so taken daily and are tabulated in the office 
 of the superintendent of the Railway Mail Service, in whose division 
 the route is located. 
 
 The Chairman. Pn a mile-ton basis ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. First the weights are all tabulated, so as to show at 
 the end of the weighing period the total amount of mails put on and 
 put off at every station. That statement is then certified. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You say the weights put on and put off? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, at each station, that is, for the purpose of 
 getting the weight of the mail discharged at the station and the 
 weight received, so as to get the total? 
 
 The Chairman. The number of pounds per mile carried on the 
 route ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The' whole route ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. Now, that tabulated statement is certified to 
 by the superintendent and is transmitted to the Second Assistant 
 Postmaster General through the General Superintendent of the Rail- 
 way Mail Service. When it is received in the department it goes 
 
 21845— vol 1—12 6 
 
82 PAEGEL POST. 
 
 to the division of railway adjustment, in the office of the Second 
 Assistant Postmaster General, where the distances stated on the 
 distance circular are transferred to the weight circulars opposite the 
 names of the stations, so that the finished weight circular shows the 
 total weight of mails taken on and put off at each station, both out- 
 going and incoming, and also the distance between each station. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Suppose the route be from A, by B, C, and D, to E. 
 The clerk who makes the computation takes what is known as the 
 working sheet and begins with the outward trips by setting down 
 the total amount of mail as found on the weight circular as put on 
 at A, the initial point of the route. Opposite this weight he enters 
 the distance between the first station and the second station, which 
 represents the distance that weight of mails is carried. The weights 
 stated on the weight circular as put on and put off at the next sta- 
 tion, or station B, are next considered. The lesser number is sub- 
 tracted from the greater, and the remainder is placed under the 
 weights stated on the working sheet as carried from A. If the 
 weights put on are greater than those put off, the remainder is added 
 to the weight carried from station A. If the amount put off is 
 greater than the amount put on, the remainder is subtracted from 
 the amount shown as carried from station A. Opposite the new 
 weights thus obtained the distance found on the weight circular as 
 between B and C is entered, which represents the length of the haul 
 which the new amount of weight receives. The statement of weights 
 on the weight circular opposite each station is treated in the same 
 manner until the end of the route is reached. The weights are then 
 multiplied by the distances set opposite them, respectively, and the 
 products carried out on his working sheet. These products are then 
 totaled and the distances are totaled, and the total of the one is 
 divided by the total of the other. The quotient represents the aver- 
 age weight for 105 days, the full weighing period, carried over the 
 entire route, outbound. This quotient is divided by 105, the number 
 of days in the weighing period, which gives the average daily weight 
 carried over the whole route, outbound. The same computation is 
 made for the weights carried on the inward trips as shown by the 
 weight circular, and the two results are added together to give the 
 average daily weight carried over the entire route. 
 
 The Chairman. In that connection, you stated that there were 90 
 working days, according to law, and now you say 105 days ; if you 
 will, just elucidate that a little, please. « 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The law provides that the Postmaster General shall 
 weigh the mails for not less than 90 successive working days. Under 
 the law of 1873 it was 30 successive working days. In 1907 it was 
 changed to 90 successive working days. When the law of 1873 was 
 passed, and for many years following that time, train service on 
 many roads was only six times a week, and in computing the average 
 daily weight it was the practice of the department to use a divisor 
 consisting of 6 days to the week instead of 7 days to the week; so 
 that while the actual weighing period covered a period of 35 days 
 at that time, counting Sundaj^s, the department used a divisor con- 
 sisting of the number of week days, or 30. 
 
 The Chairman. It would give an advantage to the railroads of 
 sbout 12£ per cent, would it not? 
 
PARCEL POST. 83 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I do not know just what that amount is ; it would 
 depend upon the weight. 
 
 The Chairman. I mean the difference between your divisor of 6 
 and 7 days a week would be an equivalent of 16| per cent; they 
 would gain one-sixth? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The difference would be a reduction of about 14 per 
 cent in weight, but not necessarily that rate in the rate of pay, as the 
 rates differ with the weights. Now, instead of dividing as we used 
 to do, by 90 days under the present law, we divide by the whole num- 
 ber of days in the weighing period ; that is, 105. 
 
 The Chairman. Striking thereby an actual per diem average for 
 the whole period of weighing. The only point that I wanted to 
 bring out there was that the law stated 90 and you took 105. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, we can weigh for more than 90 days. 
 
 The Chairman. It is optional, of course. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You weigh for 105 days ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; and we divide by 105 days. 
 
 The Chairman. In that connection, by the adoption of this change 
 of divisor, what saving do you make to the Government, according 
 to your last estimate furnished, several millions? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I can give you the exact amount: it is close to 
 $5,000,000 a year. When the readjustments for all the sections were 
 completed the saving was shown to be $4,941,940.34 a year. 
 
 The Chairman. Who inaugurated the change of divisors ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Postmaster General Cortelyou issued the first order, 
 upon the close of his term; but upon careful consideration it was 
 found that it was defective and a few months afterwards Postmaster 
 General Meyer issued an amending order. 
 
 The Chairman. Under which you now operate ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Under which we are now operating. 
 
 The Chairman. Does the Postmaster General enter into definite 
 written contracts for star-route service, screen-wagon service, etc? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Are these contracts preceded by advertisements 
 for proposals ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir; but just one moment, haven't you men- 
 tioned mail-messenger service? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; including mail -messenger service. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Let me explain in regard to mail-messenger service ; 
 we do not have the same kind of a written contract. 
 
 The Chairman. That is an exception to your general plan ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes; the contract for mail-messenger service is an 
 exception. 
 
 The Chairman. What difference is that, if you will kindly state that ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. For the mail-messenger service we advertise for the 
 service, receive bids, and award it to the lowest responsible bidder. 
 No formal contract is entered into. The award is made by an order 
 of the Second Assistant Postmaster General, which afterwards be- 
 comes the order of the Postmaster General, and the successful bid- 
 der, or designated bidder, is notified, and he takes up the service and 
 continues to perform it at the pleasure of the department and him- 
 self. He has the privilege of giving us 30 clays' notice if he wishes 
 to relinquish the service. 
 
 The Chairman. The contractor, that is ? 
 
84 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes; and the department has the privilege of read- 
 vertising the service when it chooses. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Why do you make this exception as to mail- 
 messenger service ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. In all other cases we require a bond with the bid 
 and sureties on the contract. Mail-messenger service is different 
 from all other classes of service. In the first place, the class of bidder 
 will not compare with the bidder for screen-wagon service; he is 
 generally not able to furnish a bond as the screen-wagon_ contractor 
 is. If we required bonds, it would run the cost of the service up very 
 much higher. Neither do we require an equipment of a specified kind. 
 Furthermore, the service is liable to fluctuate ; the amount of it will 
 change more rapidly than in any other class of service. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why does it change more rapidly than the screen- 
 wagon service? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, it is a service that is maintained at smaller 
 places. We do not inaugurate screen-wagon service except in large 
 cities where the conditions are pretty well established, although 
 there is a chance there for quite a variation in the amount of the 
 service. The mail-messenger service is not so extensive, not so large 
 as service under a wagon contract, and if more exchanges are ordered, 
 a new depot is established, or a new transfer ordered, the proportion 
 of the change is greater to the original service required than like 
 changes would be under a wagon contract in a large city. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is, a daily train or a night train or some- 
 thing like that? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes; it would make a larger difference to the con- 
 tractor; because the service is smaller than like changes in a larger 
 place. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you find difficulty in securing the service? 
 Do men throw up contracts frequently and give you notice? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But still it is the best way to handle it? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; it is the best way to handle it ; it is the most 
 economical way and the most satisfactory all around until the service 
 grows to the point in magnitude and complexity where it is better to 
 have a regular contract and a specified character of equipment. 
 
 Senator Bristow. In what size cities is the mail-messenser service 
 established, as a rule, under this system ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. That service is established at all points where the 
 railroad companies are not required to perform the service or where 
 the department has not established wagon service. An exception to 
 this rule is found at some small offices where the postmasters are 
 asked by the department to make the exchanges. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, you mentioned the wagon service, what 
 rule do you have for the establishment of the wagon service; what 
 amount of mail? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. One of the general rules is that there must be a 
 certain volume of the mail ; that is, it must be of considerable magni. 
 tude. The cost of the mail-messenger service would have to be be- 
 tween, say, $1,200 and $2,000. 
 
 Senator Bristow. A year? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. A year; for instance, we would not put in a wagon 
 service where the cost of the service for a mail messenger is only 
 $1,000, because we would have to have a specified equipment, which 
 
PARCEL, POST. 85 
 
 the Government, of course, has to pay for in the contract cost of the 
 service when it has a contract. Then we look to the revenues of the 
 office, and if they should be approximately of a certain amount. 
 
 Senator Beistow. About what amount? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. There is a schedule of those requirements which I 
 approved a couple of years ago, which, with your permission, I 
 will insert in the record. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Yes ; we would be glad to have you do so. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. It covers that feature. Another feature is the 
 complexity of the service, whether there is considerable transfer 
 service and whether much service must be performed at night, in- 
 volving the question of the safety of the mails. I will insert in 
 the record a memorandum which I have prepared stating fully the 
 requirements which we generally look to. 
 
 The Chairman. We would be glad to have you do so. 
 
 Mr. Stewaet. In compliance with the request, I include the fol- 
 lowing statement : 
 
 FACTORS GOVERNING IN THE ESTABLISHMENT OF SCREEN-WAGON SERVICE. 
 
 Screen-wagon service will be established only at first and second class offices and at 
 third-class offices, where they may be combined with one of the other classes. 
 
 Such service will not be established at an office whose gross receipts are less than 
 J10,000 per annum. 
 
 In determining the advisability of the establishment of such service, the 
 actual postal conditions and the needs of the service shall be the first consider- 
 ation. Among these may be the number of railroad stations and railroad 
 routes at the city, the number of companies using the railroad stations, the 
 distances between railroad stations, the amount and character of mails to be 
 handled, the number of trips required, the number of transfers, if any, whether 
 the mails are to be handled during the night as well as during the day, the 
 number of postal stations and the number of trips to supply them, the safety 
 and security of the mails, the necessity for one supervision, the security against 
 liability of frequent changes in contracts and contractors and increase in ex- 
 pense, and the desirability of uniform and standard equipment. 
 
 Wliere service devolves upon a railroad eomnanv the cost of the same to the depart- 
 ment shall be taken into consideration before such service Is included in a screen-wagon 
 con+rncf. 
 
 Screen-wagon service not under formal contract may be established when it is advisable 
 to have a superior service to ordinary mail-messenger service and the postal conditions 
 will not warrant service under formal contract, and when additional routes are necessary 
 in cities having formal contract service when the necessity arises during the contract 
 term. 
 
 The Chairman. In all of these different kinds of service, is the 
 contract always given to the lowest bidder; if not, what figures or 
 data are considered by you? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The law requires that the contract shall be awarded 
 to the lowest bidder offering sufficient guarantees. I think that is 
 the language of the statute. Now, as a rule, the bidder offering suffi- 
 cient guarantees is the lowest bidder. 
 
 The Chairman. The sufficiency you determine — that is, the de- 
 partment determines the sufficiency of the guarantee? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir; the sufficient bond accompanying the bid 
 is one of the principal guarantees. 
 
 The Chairman. And you have the right of rejecting when you 
 advertise, or you reserve that right? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes; regular contracts are ordinarily for a term 
 of four years. 
 
 The Chairman. An interim of four years between ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Senator, before we go on with the question, I 
 want to ask in regard to the weighings in the Eailway Mail Service. 
 
86 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Before we go too far away from it. After you weigh for those 90 
 days that fixes the compensation for four years. Now, have you 
 ever tested as to whether or not the weight during the 90 days was 
 more or less than it was during the period, say at the end of two 
 years, have you experimented to see whether or not the roads were 
 carrying more or less mail than they did during the weighing time? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No; but we always compare the succeeding weigh- 
 ing with the preceding weighing four years earlier, and as a rule it 
 always shows an increase. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It has come to my attention that during the 
 weighing time that frequently the mails have been padded, and I 
 wondered whether the department had ever taken the precaution, 
 without notice to the railroads, of testing — that is, a year after the 
 contract had been let — as to whether or not they had been padded, 
 whether the mail during the same period was more or less than it 
 had been during the weighing time. Now, at the next weighing time, 
 of course, there is ample notice and the same process can be gone 
 through. A postal official told me at one time that there was a car- 
 load of public documents that were sent over the Northern Pacific 
 Railroad and then refranked by some one who had the franking 
 privilege during the weighing time ; and in my own State the allega- 
 tion was made that a certain Member of Congress sent a very large 
 number of public documents over a certain railroad during the 
 weighing time. And then it has been said to me by railroad officials 
 that certain clerks in the Railway Mail Service would favor one line 
 against another by diverting mail during the weighing time, and it 
 seemed to me that if the department had, without any notice to the 
 railroads, say, for the next month or the next year in the same month, 
 put on some clerks to weigh the mails and see that it would have been 
 a demonstration as to whether or not the matters that I refer to 
 Avere of material advantage to the railroads. 
 
 The Chairman. I just want to add to your inquiry this, and it 
 will possibly cast more light on the subject : In answering Senator 
 Bristow, will you kindly state the estimated cost to the Government 
 in weighing oyer the four divisions that you have, and the cost of the 
 division that is greatest for any one weighing period, like your sec- 
 tion division 3 that you are doing now, your estimated cost, and also the 
 number of additional weighers that you have put on, so as to show 
 the impossibility of a secret weighing that the railroads could not pos- 
 sibly know of? I think that would cast more light on the subject. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Now, in answer to Senator Bristow's first inquiry as 
 to whether we have conducted such a subsequent weighing as he men- 
 tions, we have not. As to the question of the possibility of padding 
 the mails during the weighing season, that is almost impossible now. 
 Before the weighing begins we start out on the routes all the special 
 agents that we have available; in fact, we put on as many as is 
 necessary to ride the roads, and they go over them for a considerable 
 period of time before the weighing begins. They observe all the 
 normal conditions that exist during, say, the 30 days preceding the 
 weighing period. Then when the weighing begins they still continue 
 this work, and they ride the roads to a large extent until the weigh- 
 ing ceases. They observe all the conditions, everything that is going 
 on. If they notice any undue increase in the mails, they report it 
 immediately, and it is acted upon promptly by my office. It is inves- 
 
PARCEL, POST. 87 
 
 tigated thoroughly, and the reason why there is an increase is ascer- 
 tained, and if it is an irregularity we reject the weights: but, as a 
 rule, we find that supposed irregularities of that kind are really 
 ordinary happenings in the normal course of business, as, for in- 
 stance, when a large mail-order house would mail its catalogues, 
 which circumstance looks like an undue increase in the mails,* but on 
 inquiry it would be found that they had been doing the same thing 
 at practically the same time in the ordinary course of business, ana 
 they would do it the next year at the same time, and the following 
 year, so that it would fairly represent the average for the year. It 
 is impossible for railway-mail clerks to successfully divert mails as 
 suggested. All mails are dispatched in accordance Avith established 
 schemes, which can not be changed without authority. All diversions 
 must first be authorized by the officers of the service, and diversions 
 of 100 pounds or more must be authorized by the Second Assistant 
 Postmaster General. In regard to public documents, Ave exercise as 
 great care as possible in regard to that when there is a weighing in 
 progress. We have a weighing at the city post office of all the mails 
 that go out of Washington, and if there is any indication that there is 
 an undue amount of weight going out attention is called to it. 
 
 We never interfere with anybody's right to send mail in such 
 cases. We advise the users of the privilege that the weighing is 
 going on, and of the department's desire that the weight of the mail 
 should be kept normal. If we should find that mail which has been 
 franked out, is then remailed, sent to different parts of the weighing 
 sections, we would investigate that condition. If we found that it 
 was the purpose to pad the mails or increase the mails, we would 
 reject such weights as far as practicable. There was a case a number 
 of years ago in Iowa, where the president of a small railroad company 
 shipped out some old newspapers and attempted to pad his weights by 
 having them sent o\ r er his road at the time of the weighing. It was dis- 
 covered, of course, because they could not carry on a project of that 
 kind without the department knoAving it, and he and several others 
 were indicted for conspiracy and were. tried in Des. Moines. The 
 jury failed to convict. It is very difficult to get a conviction on a 
 conspiracy charge. It was following that case that Ave requested 
 Congress for the present law, which makes it an offense for any 
 individual to attempt to pad the mails. Now, everything that looks 
 like an irregularity during the weighing is promptly reported and 
 thoroughly investigated. 
 
 Senator Bristoav. Is it made the duty of the railway postal clerk 
 to report to these special agents or representatives of yours any 
 incident that appears to be an effort to pad the mails ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bkistoav. To illustrate, in this carload of documents that 
 I was advised of some years ago; that would be a very unusual 
 incident; postal clerks Avould know about it; they would have to 
 know about it, would they not ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, it is their duty to report to whom? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. To their chief clerk. 
 
 Mr. Bristoav. To their chief clerk? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir; and he would report it to his superin- 
 tendent, and it would be reported to the department at Washington. 
 
88 PABCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Beistow. As to the special agents ; would it be regarded 
 in any way irregular for them to state the fact to the special agents? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No ; but he would report it independently. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes ; he would report it independently, but the 
 question was if the railway postal clerk had reported to his chief 
 clerk and it had come that way, whether or not the postal clerk 
 would consider it within his duty to report it also to the agent who 
 is there representing the department. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. He would report it to him also, because he has au- 
 thority to know what is going on in the car. 
 
 Of course, in regard to public documents, you know they are dis- 
 patched every year. It is true that they are dispatched from Wash- 
 ington during the first part of the year in greater bulk perhaps than 
 they are in the fall or the summer time. 
 
 The Chairman. You have 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I beg your pardon, Senator ; now I will answer the 
 rest of the question that you asked me, as to the cost of weighing the 
 mails in the four sections. The aggregate cost for four years is about 
 $1,369,000. The heaviest section is the third section, which includes 
 the Middle States. The cost there is about $479,000. The costof 
 weighing the heavy routes in the section where we are now weighing 
 the mails, including the periodical matter transported in freight 
 trains, will be something over $200,000. It takes a large number of 
 weighers, and of course the cost is quite considerable. 
 
 The Chairman. Would it be possible to make an extended weigh- 
 ing on any road without the railroad being cognizant of the fact that 
 it was being done ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I do not think it would on any of the large lines, 
 for the reason that the railroad companies have their own mail 
 agents, who are very careful and observant. They watch all the con- 
 ditions on the road, and they would necessarily have to know that we 
 were weighing the mails. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They might know, but at the same time not have 
 an opportunity to prepare or pad it if that were being done. It takes 
 time, you know, to get rid of it. 
 
 The Chairman. It would not take time if you had a weighing 
 period of 105 days, or if you had a weighing period of 30 days. They 
 would have ample opportunity to do the padding. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You would not have to take 30 days or 105 days. 
 
 The Chairman. How would you take your average time, take 105 
 days or 30 days? 
 
 Senator Bristow. You could get one day a week or two or three a 
 week and compare them. It would average about the same. It 
 would not be absolutely accurate, but still it would be very substan- 
 tial and corroborative evidence. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. There is another thing, Senator Bristow; another 
 point which would give us a check on that matter, and that would be 
 the number of railway postal clerks which would be necessary to 
 handle the business. We know, for instance, just what is being done 
 on every line. We know what the volume of the mail carried is, its 
 normal weight, and the amount of distribution that is necessary, be- 
 cause that must be checked constantly with the capacity of the men 
 to do the work and the car space that is necessary in which to handle 
 
PARCEL POST. 89 
 
 the mails ; so that it is impossible for radical changes to occur in the 
 service without being known at once. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, I think the 90-day period is very much 
 of an improvement over the former 30-day period, and I think the 
 special agents which you speak of having made this preliminary 
 work and also following it up is a precaution which the department 
 did not formerly take, as I understand it. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Many years ago it did not, but for a number of years 
 past we have; however, we did not have the number of men in the 
 earlier period that we now have employed on the lines. For 
 instance, during the last weighing we had, I should say, over 100 
 men riding and inspecting the lines in the middle section. 
 
 The Chairma v n. You mean this present period, this interim weigh- 
 ing you are making now in section 3 ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The weighing which began in that section in the 
 spring. 
 
 The Chairman. The regular weighing? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. After an interim of between two and three 
 months certain routes were reweighed. 
 
 The Chairman. It seems to me that it would be an absolute im- 
 possibility under this system that you have explained that there 
 could be any extensive padding of the mail. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I would not say it is impossible; I would say 
 that it seems very desirable that precautions be exercised to prevent it. 
 
 The Chairman. To my mind it seems impossible that they can 
 get around it with a check like that. How much less in proportion 
 do the land-grant railroads receive than those that have no such 
 grant? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Twenty per cent. The land-grant railroads under 
 a provision of Congress receive 80 per cent of the compensation 
 which is otherwise paid to railroad companies for carrying the mails. 
 
 The Chairman. Is this fixed by law. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. How long, under the present law, will this differ^ 
 ence in compensation remain effective? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Under the present law ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Eevised Statutes, section 4001, provides that all 
 railway companies to which the United States have furnished aid 
 by grant of lands, right of way, or otherwise,, shall carry the mails 
 at such prices as Congress shall provide, and, until such price is 
 fixed by law, the Postmaster General may fix the rate of compensa- 
 tion. Congress fixed the rate of compensation by the act of July 12, 
 1876, chapter 179, section 13, providing that such roads shall receive 
 only 80 per cent of the compensation authorized to be paid railroads 
 not so aided. 
 
 The Chairman. Then there is no fixed limitation now. Congres- 
 sional action would have to be taken before any limitation could be 
 prescribed ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What employees of the post office accompany the 
 mails, and are they transported by the railroads free of charge? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Wherever we have distribution of the mails enroute 
 the mails are accompanied by railway postal clerks to make the dis- 
 
90 PARCEL POST. 
 
 tribution, and transportation is provided for by law, and the com- 
 pensation paid the railroad companies is presumed to cover that. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the cost of the transportation of the em- 
 ployee accompanying the mail is covered in the contract made with 
 the railroad for the carrying of the mails? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. The law provides as one of the conditions 
 on which the railroad company may be allowed its compensation, that 
 it shall furnish suitable apartment car or apartment, etc., for rail- 
 way postal clerks to accompany and distribute the mails. It also 
 provides that every railway company carrying the mails shall carry 
 on any train that may be run over its road, and without extra charge 
 therefor, all mailable matter directed to be carried thereon, with the 
 person in charge of the same. 
 
 The Chairman. No segregation? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Where no postal employee accompanies the mail, 
 what precautions are taken to guard against tampering with the 
 mails enroute? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Letter mail, of course, is always under lock, in locked 
 pouch, and other mails are in what are called sacks that are not 
 locked. Those mails are in charge of the employee of the railroad 
 company, and the railroad company is held responsible for any depre- 
 dations upon them. It is very rare, indeed, that any depredations 
 occur. 
 
 The Chairman. What general restrictions are placed on the rail- 
 roads by law or regulations to insure the prompt and satisfactory 
 performance of the service and the furnishing of suitable accommoda- 
 tions for the postal employees, if any accompany the mails? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. There is one statute which provides that railroad 
 companies shall carry upon any train that runs over its road, any 
 mails that may be ordered by the Postmaster General. Of course 
 all roads are also made post roads by law. All railroads are made 
 post roads and the Postmaster General has general authority to con- 
 tract with railroads for carrying the mails. Under those general 
 statutes we utilize practically all the train service that is afforded 
 by the railroad companies, and accept their schedules for ordinary 
 service just as the public accepts them for travel. 
 _ Where we have special mail trains, however, the condition is a 
 little different. The company furnishes a train to run on a certain 
 schedule or make certain connections. Some such are exclusive mail 
 trains and do not carry passengers or anything else. Others are 
 fast mail trains and also carry passengers and express. The law 
 fixing the rates of pay to railroads names as one of the conditions 
 upon which they shall be entitled to the compensation named, that 
 they shall furnish suitable apartments for the clerks in which to 
 accompany and distribute the mail. 
 
 The Chairman. Who passes upon the suitability, the department? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The department. Now that covers what we call 
 the apartment car service. There is another provision of law which 
 requires companies to furnish full railway post-office cars when re- 
 quired by the Postmaster General so to do, and it provides for a 
 penalty of 10 per cent of their transportation pay if they fail to fur- 
 
PABCELi POST. 91 
 
 nish such cars. For the use of such cars Congress has authorized the 
 payment of special rates ; that is 
 
 The Chairman. In addition to transportation? 
 
 Mr. Stewaet. Yes; in addition to transportation pay. The space 
 for which such payment is made begins with what is called the 40- 
 foot car. Pay is allowed for lines of 40-foot cars, 50-foot cars, and 
 55 and 60 foot cars. 
 
 The law on this subject provides as follows: 
 
 Alter July 1, 1907, additional pay allowed for every line comprising a daily 
 trip each way of railway post-office cars shall be at a rate not exceeding $25 
 j.er mile per annum for cars 40 feet in length, and $27.50 per mile per annum 
 for 45-foot cars, and $32.50 per mile per annum for 50-foot cars, and $40 per 
 mile per annum for cars 55 feet or more in length. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is any pay allowed for the compartment in the 
 combination of express, baggage, and mail cars ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No additional pay. The furnishing of such is part 
 of the condition on which the companies earn their transportation 
 pay. It is named as one of the conditions. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why should there be any amount paid to them 
 for a 40-foot car, if 20 feet can be used by the company in a car on 
 the same road? Why should the Government pay for 40 feet of 
 space when that 40 feet of space simply means very much more busi- 
 ness to the railroad? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The 40-foot car is a car devoted entirely to the Gov- 
 ernment's business, unless it is what we call the 70-foot car with a 
 40-foot compartment in it, of which there are very few cases. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do the railroads get pay for the 40-foot com- 
 partment in the 70-foot car? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Where they furnish it that way. They furnish it 
 just the same as a 40- foot car. A company may be permitted to fur- 
 nish a car 70 feet in length, 30 feet of which may be used by the com- 
 pany and 40 feet, inside measurement, of which shall be constructed, 
 fitted up, and furnished for railway post-office purposes, as provided 
 by law and in accordance with the requirements of the General Su- 
 perintendent Division of Railway Mail Service, to be used exclusively 
 for railway post-office purposes. Such a car is regarded as a 40-foot 
 railway post-office car, and, when duly authorized and used for such 
 purpose, may be paid for as a 40-foot railway post-office car. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But they would not pay for the 30 feet in a 70- 
 foot car? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. They would not. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why would not you pay for the 30 feet as well 
 as for the 40 feet? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Because Congress has authorized the specific pay- 
 ment for a railroad post-office car 40 feet and more in dimensions, 
 and provided that the furnishing of space otherwise shall be a condi- 
 tion on which they may be allowed transportation pay. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you think that that is justified? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, I understand that when that law was passed 
 it was believed by the department and by Congress that there was 
 that much consideration due the companies in regard to the furnish- 
 ing of these special cars in addition to the pay for transportation. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What they were then getting? 
 
92 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bhistow. Of course that would be the larger companie 
 that had the larger business and had been given the larger pay. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. My own personal judgment is, if you ask me, tha 
 the whole plan of compensating railroads for mail service should bi 
 restated, and that if the company furnishes space it should receii 
 the same consideration for that space, whether it is 30, 40, or 50 feet 
 if it is used for the same kind of service. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You would take a different unit, then, insteac 
 of a 40-foot unit on space ; what unit would you take ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, I would restate the entire system of paymeni 
 in accordance with the Postmaster General's recommendation senl 
 to Congress, which is a space basis; space and frequency of service 
 
 Senator Bristow. What is the unit there — square feet? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No ; linear feet, with frequency of service. That is, 
 it is practically the car-foot mile. 
 
 Senator Bristow. As a matter of fact, Mr. Stewart, when the 
 compensation was fixed originally, was it contemplated that the 
 Government would pay additional rent for the space that its business 
 used on the cars? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. You mean when the law of 1873 was passed? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I think that statute fixing the pay for cars was 
 passed at the same time. It is uncertain as to just what view was 
 taken of it. The theory which I suggested, which has been stated to 
 me, but of which I have no personal knowledge, is that it was the 
 purpose to give further consideration to those conditions where the 
 company furnished the full car used entirely for the Government 
 purpose, fitted up and furnished in accordance with the specifications 
 made by the Postmaster General. 
 _ Senator Bristow. This car then serves as an additional compensa- 
 tion, does it not? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir ; it is in fact additional. The company is 
 paid for all the weights that are carried in the car and it is also paid 
 for the use of the car. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is that uniform for the same sized car to all 
 companies ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What is the compensation ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Not exceeding $25 per mile per annum for a line 
 of 40-foot cars, $27.50 per mile per annum for a line of 45-foot cars, 
 $32.50 per mile per annum for a line of 50-foot cars, and $40 per mile 
 per annum for a line of 55-foot or greater length cars. The revision 
 of rates named in the original act was made by the law of 1907. 
 Congress reduced the rates by that act. 
 
 Senator Bristow. When was that law first enacted? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Providing for compensation for the renting of 
 space in these cars? The original act was passed March 3, 1873. It 
 is carried in the original compilation of the Revised Statutes as 
 section 4004. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The department determines when a full car is 
 needed, does it, on the lines? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. 
 
PABCEL POST. 93 
 
 Senator Bristow. There are continuous applications for the car 
 service, because it very materially increases the amount the railroad 
 companies receive for carrying the mails? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Railroad companies are, as a rule, always anxious 
 to have the car authorization made, but the question as to whether it 
 shall be made rests entirely with the department, and no authoriza- 
 < tion is made without the closest inquiry, investigation, and scrutiny 
 ' of all the facts, and it has to pass first the judgment of the chief clerk 
 having the line in charge, then his superintendent, then the General 
 Superintendent of the Railway Mail Service, then the Superintendent 
 of Railway Adjustment, and then the Second Assistant Postmaster 
 General before an authorization can be made. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Upon what basis do you determine whether or 
 not it ought to be made upon the amount of mail handled ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The amount of mail handled and the number of 
 distributions that are necessary in the car. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Could you submit a statement as to where these 
 cars are used, the size of the cars, the compensation, and the line, etc., 
 without very great difficulty? 
 - Mr. Stewart. I think so. 
 
 The Chairman. Covering the whole country? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes; and incorporate it in your remarks. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes; I can do that. 
 
 The Chairman. We will be greatly obliged if you would. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I shall be glad to do so. 
 
 (The following table gives the information desired :) 
 
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112 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Can a railroad under existing law legally refuse 
 to transport the mails when called upon to do so ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The acts which made grants of land to railroads 
 ]3rovided that in those cases railroad companies shall carry the 
 mails at rates to be fixed by Congress and, until Congress shall fix 
 the rates, at such rates as the Postmaster General shall fix. In those 
 cases I think the railroad companies are obliged to carry the mail. 
 They are under perpetual contract. Just what the nature of the 
 remedy would be if they refused I am not prepared to say. We never 
 had a case of that kind. 
 
 The Chairman. The railroads never refuse to accept mail? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, we never had a case where land-grant rail- 
 roads refused. Now, in the case of other roads that are not under 
 that statutory obligation, the question is undetermined, I think. The 
 question that would be raised upon the refusal of a road has never 
 come up directly, but the question has been noted incidentally where 
 a railroad company has sued the Government to recover for an 
 amount deducted from its pay on account of a change in the statu- 
 tory rate. For instance, in 1878 Congress reduced the rate 5 per 
 cent, I believe, and the Postmaster General readjusted the pay ac- 
 cordingly during the term. Certain roads objected to the reduction 
 because they said they had a four-year contract and the Postmaster 
 General had no authority, even though Congress directed him to 
 readjust the pay, to interfere with their pay during the term of the 
 contract. That question went before the Court of Claims and before 
 the Supreme Court of the United States, and it was held that the 
 readjustment order was an offer from the Postmaster General to the 
 company, which it was at liberty to accept or reject, and that it was 
 not obliged to continue the service under the new terms if it did not 
 choose to do so. 
 
 Senator Bristow. We would infer, then, that the Pennsylvania 
 Railroad, unless it got what it wanted, could refuse to carry the mails. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Following the logic of those cases, that would be 
 correct. However, the question might be raised in an entirely dif- 
 ferent manner ; and if so raised, I am not prepared to say what the 
 result would be. The Constitution delegates to Congress the author- 
 ity to establish post offices and post roads, and Congress has made 
 all railroads post roads. If a company refused to carry the mails 
 and it was deemed necessary by the Postmaster General to have them 
 so carried, I presume action of an appropriate form could be brought 
 against the road which would test the question in a direct issue. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Of course there is a possibility that they might 
 require the roads to carry the mails and then let the question of com- 
 pensation be answered to what was reasonable and just through 
 litigation. 
 
 The Chairman. Returning to the question of the divisor just for 
 a moment, I want to get this information : What do you estimate. 
 Mr. Stewart, that the saving to the Government has been since the 
 Meyer order of June 7, 1907 ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. About $12,000,000. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that has been very material, then, in the 
 reduction of the postal deficit, has it not? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. A material factor since that time? 
 
PABCEL POST. 118 
 
 Mr. Stewakt. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bkistow. That was first brought up in a hearing before 
 the House committee, was it not ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir; it was involved in a proviso presented to 
 the House committee in 1904. This was a proposed amendment to 
 the item appropriating for railroad-mail pay, and directed that the 
 Postmaster General should have the mails weighed and the average 
 daily weight ascertained for a period of " not less than three con- 
 secutive months.'' At that time the law provided that we should 
 weigh not less than 30 consecutive working days, but, as a matter of 
 fact, it had been concluded that 30 days' weighing was too short, and 
 we were weighing 60 days in some cases, because the law authorized 
 the Postmaster General to weigh not less than 30 days, thus giving 
 him the power to extend it. Now, in order to get legislative direc- 
 tion to have the weighing for a longer period the Second Assistant 
 Postmaster General offered an amendment to the House committee t< 
 authorize or direct the weighing for " not less than three consecutiv 
 months," which, you will observe, dropped out the words " success!? 
 working days " from the law. The House committee accepted tY 
 amendment, included it in the bill reported to the House, and whc 
 the bill was pending in the Committee of the Whole the provisio 
 was changed to read 90 consecutive working days, preserving the ok 
 language, but extending the period of the weighing. 
 
 The Chairman. In what year was that; do you remember? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I think it was in 1904; I think it first came up u-. 
 1904 ; however, I will supply the exact date for the record. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; please. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The matter was presented to the committee in De- 
 cember, 1904. I find that the action of the Committee of the Whole 
 was taken February 1, 1905. That was the beginning of the change. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, the phraseology was changed in the House 
 so as to make it 90 consecutive working days, and then was not an 
 effort made in the House to amend that so that the divisor should 
 be 90 days ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I think it was. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And the House revised it, did it not ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The House revised it; yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. As I remember it, the amendment was offered by 
 Mr. Murdoch, of Kansas, and then President Roosevelt directed the 
 Postmaster General by an Executive order to change this divisor, 
 did he not ? 
 
 The Chairman. That is, directed Mr. Cortelyou ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I have no knowledge of those facts. I know that 
 Mr. Cortelyou made the order. 
 
 Senator Bristow. My recollection comes from the published re- 
 ports. I think Mr. Murdoch conferred with the President — Mr. 
 Roosevelt was then President — and he directed Mr. Cortelyou, so the 
 papers stated, to make this change, and it was made, although the 
 law did not change. 
 
 The Chairman. The power was there from 1904 and not exercised 
 until 1907? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. It was an Executive order that mnde the 
 change. 
 
 21845— vol 1—12 8 
 
114 PABCEL. POST. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The absolute direction of law to use the whole num- 
 ber of days was never secured, but the Postmaster General issued an 
 executive order requiring the use of the whole number of days ; that 
 was in 1907. 
 
 The Chairman. And the railroads protested, but assented by carry- 
 ing the mails? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well the railroads protested, but continued carrying 
 the mail. They claim they never assented to it. I had sent out to 
 every railroad that protested a notice, upon the receipt of their pro- 
 test, that due note was taken of the same, but notwithstanding that 
 if they continued to carry the mails the Postmaster General would 
 pay no more than the amount named in the order adjusting the pay, 
 and in accordance with the order No. 412, which was the divisor order. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They continued though? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. They continued to carry the mails. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You regarded that as an acceptance of the con- 
 tract? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I regarded that as an implied acceptance, because 1 
 believe the only way they can make their protest effective and have 
 a claim against the Government is to decline to continue to carry 
 the mails under those terms. 
 
 The Chairman. Please state the nature and extent of lap service. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Wherever it becomes necessary to authorize two 
 railroad routes over the same line of railroads the second route is 
 stated as a lap route, and the compensation of the two routes is so 
 adjusted as to make the total pay not exceed the pay which would 
 go to one road. 
 
 The Chairman. Provided one route was the whole? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; provided it was established as one route. 
 
 The Chairman. Then it is a segregation of total pay as if one route 
 only existed? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, give an illustration, if you will. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Such a case would be like this: Where the depart- 
 ment has a mail route in the name, for instance, of the Union Pacific 
 Eailroad, which owns the tracks between Kansas City and Topeka 
 and westward, that would be called the principal railroad route. 
 However, they grant trackage rights to the Pock Island Railroad 
 Co., which runs a limited number of trains between Kansas City and 
 Topeka over the Union Pacific tracks. The department desires to 
 use those Rock Island trains for mail purposes, and we would au- 
 thorize a new or second route, a lap route, in the name of the Rock 
 Island Co. between those points and pay the Rock Island Co. the 
 difference between the amount which the one company would be 
 entitled to if it carried all the mails and the amount which the 
 Union Pacific Co. would be entitled to for carrying its own mails. 
 Such pay to the Rock Island would be at the ton rate for the high 
 weights. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That would be less than if it were the only route, 
 would it? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, would that be considered an injustice or a 
 discrimination against the Rock Island and in favor of the Union 
 Pacific, as a matter of fact? 
 
PARCEL, POST. 115 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No ; it is not so regarded. 
 
 The Chairman. The present system you consider perfectly equita- 
 ble to both, where there are two in that route, or where a lap route 
 exists ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes; I think so. Of course, there is that question 
 to consider. If the weights are heavy, the Eock Island would get the 
 small per-ton weight, while the Union Pacific would get the rate 
 provided for the lighter weights, which is very much higher per ton 
 up to 5,000 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Whenever a lap-route service is authorized, is it 
 necessary to immediately order a weighing of the mail on that basis? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No. 
 
 The Chairman. How do you ascertain the compensation to be paid 
 under such circumstances? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. That is authorized on the establishment of the route 
 during the term. It would be the minimum rate provided by stat- 
 ute — $42.75 per mile for 200 pounds average daily weight. There 
 are not many cases of that kind. The department does not favor the 
 recognition of lap service originating during the term where such 
 service arises by reason of a grant or lease of trackage rights to an- 
 other by a company operating a mail route, but expects the grantor 
 to stipulate with the grantee to fulfill the former's obligations to 
 carry the mails during the term. Where the lap service is in exist- 
 ence when the weighing for the new term begins the adjustment on it 
 is made in the same manner, and the weighing is made at the same 
 time that the adjustment and weighing is made on the regular route; 
 that is, it is weighed when the other route is weighed and adjustment 
 made in the same manner and for the same period upon its own 
 weight. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, section 1175 of the Postal Laws and Eegu- 
 lations states that compensation shall be fixed by agreement at such 
 rate not exceeding $42.75 per mile per annum, as the importance and 
 character of the service will warrant. Is the railroad one of the 
 parties to this agreement and the Postmaster General the other party % 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Are railroad mail routes fixed by the Postmaster 
 General or by yourself? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, you mean the institution of the route ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; the determination of the route. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. It is made by the Second Assistant Postmaster 
 General. 
 
 The Chairman. And when the new routes are organized, is an or- 
 der defining their limits issued? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You issue the order? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. It is issued by the Second Assistant and it goes on 
 the journal of the Postmaster General as well. 
 
 The Chairman. What are the conditions precedent before the 
 establishment of a railway post-office car service ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The first railway post-office service on a new line 
 of road would be in apartment cars, and there must be a sufficient 
 amount of mail for the offices on the route to warrant its distribution 
 en route; there must be considerable mail and there must be a rea- 
 sonable number of offices. 
 
116 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. And that is determined by the Second Assistant 
 Postmaster General? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir ; through the Kailway Mail Service. 
 
 The Chairman. What compensation is allowed for the different 
 lengths of railway post-office cars ? You were going to state that, I 
 believe. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I have already stated that. Before you leave the 
 question of lap service I wish to make a further statement. There 
 are some cases where we ad j List the pay on a lap route at the regular 
 rate, as, for instance, where the lap route is over the line of another 
 •road into a large terminal, as, for instance, Chicago or St. Paul, 
 There is a conspicuous instance at St. Paul where there are several 
 companies that use the tracks of the Great Northern, and others use 
 those of the Northern Pacific between Minneapolis and St. Paul. 
 We havea rule that for 10 miles out from any large terminal. we will 
 adjust the pay at regular rates. 
 
 The Chairman. To all roads going over that 1 0-mile track? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. That is in consideration of the fact that the 
 companies claim that it is very expensive to maintain terminal facili- 
 ties ; the fact that the operating company may not own the roads is 
 not the controlling factor. 
 
 The Chairman. You pay the maximum legal rate then in all cases 
 of that kind and make a definite 10-mile radius? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose you have no post office or opportunity of 
 weighing the mail at a point 10 miles from the terminal point, how 
 do you calculate on the amount during the weighing? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. That part of the route is adjusted at lap pay and 
 the other part is adjusted at the regular pay, but the weighing is 
 made on the entire route. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. But as I understand your process of weigh- 
 ing, you weigh at each station the mail taken on and put off. Then 
 you compute your mileage between stations so that you know the 
 exact number of pounds that you carry over every mile of that road? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. The point I was trying to get at was how, if 
 there was no station 10 miles outside of the distributing point, your 
 central point, how you would ascertain the exact weight of your 
 mail and the amount carried? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The weight is ascertained on the entire route. It 
 is the average daily weight carried over the entire route. The statute 
 requires that we shall compute the average daily weight over the 
 entire route; but in making adjustments 
 
 The Chairman. You would simply take 10 miles? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. If the lap distance" is 10 miles or less, it would be 
 adjusted at the maximum rate. If it is more than 10 miles, the 
 rixcess of lap above that distance would be adjusted at lap rate. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you give a brief statement of the advan- 
 tages derived from distributing mail en route made possible by the 
 railway post-office car service ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The largest part of the mails that are carried on 
 railroads are distributed en route, and if they were not so dis- 
 tributed the distribution would necessarily have to made in post 
 
PARCEL POST. 117 
 
 offices, either at the initial point or at the point of destination, and 
 that would very greatly delay the delivery of the mail. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, is it your opinion that the Government 
 makes in efficiency and cost of operation by having the postal-car 
 service over and above what it would if it did not have it? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Oh^yes; very much. 
 
 The Chairman. 1 ou think that is demonstrated ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You have this same distribution where there is 
 only a part of the car used ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is, you have got one of these' combination 
 cars — baggage and express and mail — and there is a postal clerk in 
 that car, and he is assigned to the mail, even if it is only 20 linear 
 feet? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And distributes it just the same as if it was a 50- 
 foot car? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. Of course the distribution is not so ex- 
 tensive, but all that is necessary for the offices on the line. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the greatest length of postal cars the 
 Government has where it utilizes the whole car ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Sixty feet; however, there are 70-foot cars oper- 
 ated in some cases, but we only pay for a 60-foot car. 
 
 The Chairman. Are most of those cars, on the average, worked to 
 their full capacity ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes; if they are authorized, but there are cases 
 where the company, for its own convenience, runs a larger sized car 
 than we pay them for. 
 
 The Chairman. That is optional with the company? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes; we aim to make the authorization cover only 
 the need. 
 
 The Chairman. But with the present operation you think there 
 is but very little waste in the car space paid for by the Government 
 to the railroad ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Oh, yes ; very little indeed. There is no one thing 
 that I know of that is more closely checked up than that. 
 
 The Chairman. How long has the postal-car service been in 
 operation ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, to some extent since 1873. 
 
 The Chairman. How rapidly has it been extended ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. It has grown very rapidly, of course, with the de- 
 velopment of the country and the volume of mail. A glance at the 
 annual appropriations for that class of service, say for 10 or 15 
 years back, would give a very good idea of its growth and devel- 
 opment. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What was the aggregate amount in the last 
 
 appropriation bill ? ... 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I think about $5,000,000. The appropriation for 
 1912 is $5,010,000. . 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is my recollection. I thought it was tour 
 and a half or five million dollars. 
 
118 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. We have really been decreasing it in repent 
 years, as I have said, through the close scrutiny that has been given 
 the authorization of space in the last four years. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Would it be convenient for you to submit a state- 
 ment of the amount for each year for a period of years up to the 
 present time ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Eunning back ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You have such statistics ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; I insert the following table : 
 
 BAIL WAY-POST-OFFICE-CAR SEBVICE. 
 
 Statement showing annual appropriations, annual rate of expenditure, increase 
 or decrease in annual rate of expenditure, and the per cent of increase or 
 decrease for the years 1900 to 1911, inclusive. 
 
 Fiscal year June 30— 
 
 Annual appro- 
 priation. 
 
 Annual rate of 
 expenditure. 
 
 Increase. 
 
 Percent. 
 
 1900 
 
 84, 204, 500. 00 
 4,561,000.00 
 4,816,000.00 
 5,104,960.00 
 5,411,000.00 
 5,736,000.00 
 5,875,000.00 
 5,875,000.00 
 5,080,000.00 
 4,800,000.00 
 4,800,000.00 
 5,047,000.00 
 
 $4, 368, 999. 59 $193. 274. 73 
 
 4.62 
 
 1901 
 
 4,638,234.03 
 4,904,396.73 
 5,279,323.79 
 5,518,233.84 
 5,743,444.41 
 5,870,251.94 
 5,889,238.98 
 4,681,777.58 
 4,721,044.87 
 4,780,614.19 
 4,737,788.75 
 
 269,234.44 
 
 266,162.70 
 
 374,927.06 
 
 238,910.05 
 
 225,210.57 
 
 126,807.53 
 
 18,987.04 
 
 11,207,461.40 
 
 39,267.29 
 
 59,569.32 
 
 '42,825.44 
 
 6.16 
 
 1902 
 
 5.73 
 
 1903 
 
 7.64 
 
 1904 
 
 4.52 
 
 1905 
 
 4. OS 
 
 1906 
 
 2.20 
 
 1907 '. 
 
 .32 
 
 1908 
 
 •20.50 
 
 1909 
 
 .83 
 
 1910 
 
 1.26 
 
 1911 
 
 '.89 
 
 
 
 i Decrease. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you suggest any way in which the service 
 could be had at a lower cost ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. You mean the entire railroad service ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; the postal-car service. I mean this par- 
 ticular branch of the service. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No ; I can not, unless the entire system of payments 
 to the railroads is changed— changed to a space basis. 
 
 The Chairman. Linear-foot mile? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. The car- foot mile would be the basis. Now, 
 whether that would effect an actual saving in the pay for the cars 
 themselves, aside from the transportation charge, I am not prepared 
 to say, but I think 
 
 The Chairman. You have not worked that out ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No ; but I think it would effect a saving on the whole 
 proposition. 
 
 The Chairman. You have come to a definite conclusion in your 
 own mind as to the desirability of the change of unit ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. The act of March 4, 1911, provided — 
 
 That after the 1st of July, 1916, the Postmaster General shall not approve or 
 allow to be used or paid for any full railway postal car not constructed of steel 
 or with steel underfraiue if such post-office car is used in a train in which a 
 majority of cars are of steel or of steel underframe construction. 
 
PARCEL POST. 119 
 
 Approximately how many cars now in the service are not con- 
 structed of steel or with steel underframe? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The conditions are changing so rapidly in regard 
 to steel and steel-underframe cars that I will have to supply you 
 with those figures from our records. 
 
 The Chairman. You will do that? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I will do that. The number of wooden full railway 
 post-office cars in use and in reserve June 30, 1911, was 948 ; the num- 
 ber of steel cars was 369 ; and steel underframe, 147. 
 
 The Chairman. Are these cars now used in trains in which a ma- 
 jority of the cars are now steel or steel-underframe construction? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The wooden cars, you mean? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; I mean the wooden cars. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I think not to a great extent. 
 
 The Chairman. Have the employees of the Eailway Mail Service 
 made complaint because they are required to perform service in such 
 cars ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. They do sometimes complain when they think the 
 wooden car is run in a dangerous position. Since July'l, 1911, no 
 full wooden car run between steel or steel-underframe cars or be- 
 tween the engine and such steel car can be paid for. As a general 
 rule, the full wooden cars are not run in dangerous positions. 
 
 The Chairman. Not as a general rule ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No. 
 
 The Chairman. How general have these complaints been ; exten- 
 sive or otherwise? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, not a great many of them, Senator. When 
 they are made, of course, they are insistent, and I think they should 
 be. Most of the complaints of that kind are as to the apartment cars. 
 
 The Chairman. Does all the second-class mail matter go through a 
 post office, or is some of it sent by the patrons directly to a railroad 
 station ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. A great deal of it is sent direct to the station. In 
 the large publishing centers much of it does not go through the post 
 offices. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, how are the weights of such matter ascer- 
 tained and checked and what precautions are taken to safeguard the 
 postal revenues in cases of that kind, namely, where second-class 
 mail matter is sent direct to the station ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. That is, to protect the revenues ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. That is not a matter under my jurisdiction, but, 
 with that reservation, I will tell you so far as I know. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You say the weighing is not under your super- 
 vision ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Not that weighing. That is weighing for the pur- 
 pose of collecting the revenue, and that is under the Third Assistant 
 Postmaster General. It is a mere question of ascertaining how much 
 .revenue should be paid and of its collection. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Oh,T see. I thought the Second Assistant had 
 that. That is under the Third Assistant Postmaster General, you 
 say? 
 
120 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. The First Assistant, as a rule, furnishes an 
 employee from the post office to go to the publishing office and make 
 the weighing. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is a clerk in the post office? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. He weighs the mails at the publishing 
 house. He makes out a weight slip showing the number of sacks 
 and the weight, which accompanies the mails to the station, and the 
 weight slip and mails are delivered to the transfer clerk, the repre- 
 sentative of the Second Assistant Postmaster General. The trans- 
 fer clerk checks the sacks with the weight slip. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Does he weigh it there at the station? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. He does not weigh it. 
 
 The Chairman. Who takes the weight slip down — the clerk of 
 the First Assistant Postmaster General? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The publisher's wagon. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How can he check it if he does not weigh it ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. He checks the number of sacks. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But what the sacks weigh he does not know? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No. 
 
 Senator Bristow. So, as a matter of fact, that check is not of very 
 great advantage in a checking on the weighing? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. It is not a check on the actual weight. Now, there 
 are some cases where the mail is taken to the station and weighed 
 by the employee of the Second Assistant Postmaster General, the 
 transfer clerk, and that is probably the safest system, and that is 
 being inaugurated to some extent in the service, but a general change 
 has not been made. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, the clerk in the post office is the only evi- 
 dence the department has as to the weight of this second-class mail 
 from the publishers? 
 
 The Chairman. Except the check of the sacks. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Except the check of the sacks. Now, do you 
 think that that is a sufficient check for safety against fraud and 
 deception ? 
 
 _ Mr. Stewart. Assuming that there is no collusion at the pub- 
 lishing office, and there should not be any, the only chance for fraud 
 would be after the mails have left the publisher's house. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, suppose there is collusion. How do you 
 check it and find out? 
 
 The Chairman. And what collusion would there have to be to 
 make this fraud possible? It would have to be between the pub- 
 lishing house and the clerk of the post office? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. Or the failure on the part of the clerk to do 
 his duty. There would be a possibility. 
 
 The Chairman. Isn't that a great risk that the Government takes? 
 I agree with Senator Bristow absolutely there. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. As I said, that whole question is under investiga- 
 tion now, and it has been recommended to place the weighing under 
 the jurisdiction of the Second Assistant Postmaster General at the 
 station. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You see, here is the clerk in the post office and 
 here is the post office there adjacent; their representatives have 
 commingled— I have had some experience and knowledge as to the 
 relationship. Now, that clerk may be honest or he may not be, but 
 
PABCEL POST. 121 
 
 you would not allow the handling of stamps or the sale of any 
 stamped paper of any kind, or the collection of any other kind of 
 revenue, depend without some other check, and with the large pub- 
 lishers you know it amounts to a great deal in a year. 
 
 The Chairman. And it is interesting, or would be to me, to know 
 why the difference was made, and this weighing taken away from 
 the function of the Second Assistant Postmaster General and 
 split between the First and Third on this particular class of mail 
 matter at this particular point. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No. It was not taken from the jurisdiction of the 
 Second Assistant, because you see it is only a question of the collec- 
 tion of the revenue, with which he has nothing to do; that is the 
 business of the Third Assistant, to get the revenues. Now, the weigh- 
 ing of the mails to ascertain the amount of revenue which should 
 be paid, Comes under the First Assistant, because he controls the post 
 office, and in the first instance this mail was all taken to the post 
 office and weighed there ; but in order to conform to the great changes 
 in the evolution of business, we have allowed the publisher to take 
 his mail to the station, and that facilitates the dispatch and it saves 
 the work being done in the post office. He makes up his mail at 
 his office, largely in accordance with our schemes, and there is no 
 necessity for taking it to the post office except to weigh it in order 
 to ascertain the postage payable. If it can be weighed at the pub- 
 lisher's house it can be dispatched direct to the train. That is an 
 advantage, and we save work at the post office. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes, I see that; but if it came to the post office 
 wouldn't it be under your jurisdiction? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Oh, no. 
 
 The Chairman. It is under your jurisdiction when it goes to the car? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. It is when it is delivered to our men at the station 
 or on the trains ; then it gets in the transportation service. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But within the post office the Second Assistant 
 hasn't jurisdiction of any clerks in the post office? 
 
 The Chairman. No; I know that. He does not get jurisdiction 
 of any mail until it goes on board the cars. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. That is right, with this qualification, that the ques- 
 tion of distribution of the mails is so much a function of the Second 
 Assistant that his schemes of distribution extend into the post offices 
 to some extent at the point where the superintendent of mails has 
 jurisdiction. It used to be that the superintendent of mails in the 
 post office was selected by the Second Assistant Postmaster General,, 
 and afterwards he was selected by agreement between the First As- 
 sistant and the Second Assistant; but now he is practically selected 
 by the First Assistant, but the Second Assistant's recommendation 
 will be given due weight. When selected by the Second Assistant 
 he was a Railway Mail Service man, because in conducting the work 
 of the superintendent of mails in the post office he would have to do 
 so largely with distribution schemes of the Railway Mail Service. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, General Stewart, could there be some plan 
 devised by which second-class mail could be weighed in the car by 
 the railway postal clerk every day at every receiving period ? Would 
 that be possible without materially delaying the business ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. You mean the regular output of a publisher? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. 
 
122 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. As it is taken down to the train and weighed? 
 Senator Bristow. Yes; say, the clerk in the local post office, he 
 takes this up and it is weighed and he reports the weight to the post- 
 master. Now, that is the only record the postmaster has. That may 
 be correct, if the clerk is honest and does his duty, but if he should be, 
 dishonest or fail to do his duty, it might not be correct. Now, as a 
 check against that, would it be practicable for the railway postal 
 clerk to have a plan of weighing that when it is received in the car? 
 Mr. Stewart. It would not be practical, unless the mail left the 
 post office in the identical shape and form in which it came to the 
 post office and was weighed there by the post-office clerk. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, but it is, is it not, as a rule ? Now, a pub-, 
 lisher, we will say, might have a half a carload, and he might have a 
 carload, of periodicals or newspapers, and they are weighed at the 
 publishing house — that is where the weighing is done — and theyi 
 never go to the post office at all ? 
 Mr. Stewart. No. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But the clerk goes to the publishing house and 
 ascertains the weight there? 
 
 The Chairman. He sees it weighed? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. Now, is there any way for the postal 
 clerks to weigh that mail and thereby obtain a check as to the accu- 
 racy of the first weighing? Could it be devised without very great 
 delay and inconvenience? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. It probably could not be without delaying the dis- 
 patch of those mails. A great amount of that mail is taken down at 
 
 the last moment, for instance 
 
 The Chairman. Hurry-up mail? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. It could not be done without delaying the 
 mail. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It would have to be done after entering the car? 
 Mr. Steavart. No; a large amount of it would be storage mail 
 and would not be put in the working cars at all where the clerks are. 
 The Chairman. I do not think it would be practicable to weigh it 
 on the car, from what little I have seen of the work that the em- 
 ployees have to do on the cars, but I do think that it would be prac- 
 ticable to require them to deliver at the depot, at the station, say 
 half an hour before the train started, and put it right on the platform 
 and weigh the whole mail, and then weigh it in the car afterwards 
 and check it over. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That could not be done with daily papers. 
 The Chairman. Well, it could be done if the Government re- 
 quired it for the protection of the service. t 
 Senator Bristow. It would destroy the busine.-s of the afternooii 
 papers. f 
 The Chairman. Well, but I don't see that. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, it would. I don't think it would be for 
 the convenience of the daily papers, but for the convenience and weir 
 fare of the general public. You take a daily paper and cut a half 
 an hour off, say from three to half-past three, and it practically de- 
 stroys the business. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, you could have another check. You could 
 have at the magazine or paper office two employees, one from each 
 department. 
 
PARCEL POST. 123 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes; you might do that. 
 
 The Chairman. That employee could be from the First or the 
 Third Assistant Postmaster General, or from the office of the Second 
 Assistant, if it goes under his jurisdiction. I want to ask in that con- 
 nection, do you have a regulation size of sack? There is only one 
 size of sack for the second class? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Ordinarily the second-class mail is put in No 2 
 sacks. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that is a regulation size. Do you have any 
 rule or regulation by which they have to count the full sacks, and an 
 estimate as to what a full sack would weigh, on an average, of news- 
 papers or magazines? Of course, the weight between the two would 
 differ. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The matter that is put up that way by the pub- 
 lishers fills the sack very full. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, does your tag that is taken down to the 
 depot give the weight according to the ascertainment of the gov- 
 ernmental clerk, and also the number of sacks, specifying whether 
 they are full or partly full? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, that it my understanding. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, then, you would get some little check? 
 Well, not a little, but a great deal of a check ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes; by that system. 
 
 Senator Bristow. By "an investigation, which could be conducted 
 secretly, you could determine whether there was any collusion ? 
 - Mr. Stewart. Oh, yes. . 
 
 The Chairman. As I understand, the United States is divided into 
 four sections for the weighing of mail ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. That is right. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you furnish the committee with a list as to 
 what States are included in each section? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I will. 
 
 The Chairman. And what considerations determine this particular 
 division rather than any other; on what basis was the segregation 
 made ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The division is probably based on conditions that 
 have existed in the service many years. We think that so far as the 
 railroad service is concerned it was probably adopted to correspond 
 with the four contract sections in the star service. 
 
 The Chairman. It is a growth ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; it substantially conforms to those sections now. 
 The first section in general covers the New England States and New 
 York, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, and the second section 
 covers the South Atlantic and States running to the Ohio and the 
 Mississippi. 
 
 The Chairman. While giving the segregations of the different sec- 
 tions, would you kindly send at the same time and include the period 
 at which you weigh the mails in each section ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. It will make the information more illuminating. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. I will supply the record in regard to the first 
 section. In the second section we weigh the mails again next spring. 
 The third section covers the Middle States; we weighed the mails 
 there this last spring and will weigh them again in four years. The 
 
124 PARCEL POST. 
 
 fourth section covers the western part of the country ; we weighed the 
 mails there last year. 
 
 The following gives the States in each section and the time of 
 weighings : 
 
 WEIGHING SECTIONS. 
 
 First section. — Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode 
 Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Mary- 
 land, Virginia, and West Virginia. Last weighing, 1909. Period, February ft} 
 to May 31, 1909. 
 
 Second section. — North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, 
 Mississippi, Tennessee, Kentucky, and the island of Porto Rico. Last weigh- 
 ing, 190S. Period, February 11 to May 25, 190S. 
 
 Third section. — Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, 
 and Missouri. Last general weighing, 1911. Period. February 28 to June 12, 
 1911. Special weighing on certain routes, commenced September 1, 1911, not 
 yet completed. M 
 
 Fourth section. — Arkansas, Louisiana, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, 
 South Dakota, North Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, Idaho, 
 Washington, Oregon, Nevada, California, New Mexico, Arizona, Alaska, and 
 Hawaii. Last weighing, 1910. Period, February 17 to June 1, 1910. 
 
 The necessity for having four sections arises mainly from the fact 
 that it is impracticable to weigh the entire country at one time. 
 
 The Chairman. And you get a better check on the growth of busi- 
 ness by having one weighing period every year on each section, don't 
 you? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; I think so. 
 
 The Chairman. I would think so. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. It is no disadvantage to the roads, and it is certainly 
 an advantage to the Government. The weighing and adjustment of 
 all the roads at one time would be a very great undertaking, and it 
 would not occur again, you see, until four years. 
 
 The Chairman. And it would probably cost the Government much 
 more than where you have an annual weighing — one for each section? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And the distribution of it ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; it would require the holding, during the term, 
 of the clerical force to make those adjustments, or you would have 
 to dispose of your clerical force and get a new force again at the 
 beginning of the next term. 
 
 The Chairman. In your adjustment of figures now you utilize 
 some of the force you already have under the ordinary operations of 
 the department? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. But if you did the weighing for the four sections 
 all at one period you wouid have a peak of business then, when you 
 could not, probably, utilize your regular force ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. We could not get through with our regular force. 
 We would have to have special employees. If we had an annual 
 weighing, then, of course, We would hold the clerks who made the 
 adjustment from year to year. 
 
 The Chairman. When a railroad operates in two or more contract 
 sections, what is there that decides the time of weighing mails for that 
 particular railroad ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The statement of the mail route of that road. Each 
 route is given a number which belongs to a State group. 
 
 The Chairman. Even if it laps over? 
 
PARCEL POST. 125 
 
 Mr. Steward. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. What allowance is made for the growth of the 
 mail service during the contract term? I think you have already 
 covered that, however, in your statement that the contract was pre- 
 sumed to take care of the increase of growth of business. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. That is correct. The theory of our adjustment is 
 that, after it is made, the rate fixed by Congress and applied by the 
 Postmaster General is presumed to be compensatory for the service 
 until the next adjustment, and it will cover the increase in the weight 
 during that period. 
 
 The Chairman. Are the post-office employees that attend io the 
 •weighing of the mails sworn? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Do the railroads have their representatives present 
 during the weighing of the mails ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, they are never in the cars, and they are not 
 allowed to handle the mails. They may have their employees observe 
 the weighing that is done at stations. They have that privilege, and, 
 of course, we could not prevent them from doing that; but they do 
 not take part in the weighing, nor are they allowed to interfere in 
 any way -vv^th it. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, if they are never in the cars and are not 
 allowed in the cars, I do not see how they have any check on the 
 employees' return where mail is taken on or off from the station, 
 unless they weighed the mail before it went on the car and weighed 
 the mail after it came off the car. In other words, it seems to me they 
 are completely at the mercy of the integrity of the department; 
 wouldn't it seem so to you? 
 
 Senator Bristow. What kind of a check do they have? They do 
 have some check. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. They are furnished, if they desire, with a copy of the 
 weight card, showing the weight on and off at every station. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They probably take care of them. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. That gives them an opportunity to know what is 
 going on and observe the weights, and if they have any idea that they 
 are not being dealt with fairly, or that there is any mistake made, 
 they will call attention to it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They often complain, do they? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. They call attention to all matters of weights that 
 they think are adjusted to their disadvantage. 
 
 Senator Bristow.' If they complain what does the department do? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Takes the matter up and runs it down to find out 
 what the facts are. If any injustice has been done it is corrected, if 
 possible. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any distinction made in the class of mail ; 
 that is, whether the first, second, third, or fourth? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No, sir. 
 I The Chairman. That is, in the weighing? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Is transportation for employees of the Bailway 
 Mail Service furnished free of charge during the weighing period? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, when accompanying the mails, and when travel- 
 ing under orders. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any restrictions? 
 
126 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The statutes providing for the transportation of em- 
 ployees of the Railway Mail Service are as follows : 
 
 The statute (R. S., 4002) authorizing the rates of compensation to be paid 
 railroad companies for the transportation of the mails provides, as one of the 
 conditions upon which such pay is based, that the companies shall furnish suit 
 able room, etc., in a car for railway postal clerks to accompany and distribute 
 the mails. Another statute (R. S., 4000) provides that every railway company •■ 
 carrying the mails shall carry in any train which may be run over its road, and 
 without extra charge therefor, all mailable matter directed to be carried thereon 
 with the person in charge of the same. The act of June 9, 1S98 (29 Stat, 315), >, 
 provides that all railroad companies carrying the mails may furnish free trans- 
 portation on the line of their respective roads to railway mail clerks. 
 
 Thereupon, at 1.10 o'clock p. m., the committee took a recess until 
 1.45 o'clock p. m. 
 
 AFTER RECESS. 
 
 (The committee resumed its session at the expiration of the recess, i 
 at 1.45 o'clock p. m.) ' 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Stewart, are all employees of the Railway 
 Mail Service, including supervisory officials, entitled to free trans- J 
 portation? | 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. That is, when I say " free transportation," we 
 mean that it is paid for in the amount that is allowed the railroad for 
 the transportation of mail. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; but there is no distinct charge made? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No; that is right. 
 
 The Chairman. It is supposed to be covered and included in the 
 general contract? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. That is right. 
 
 The Chairman. So that it is immaterial how many employees you '< 
 might carry in your postal cars. There would be no additional ex- 
 pense to the Government? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. That is right. 
 
 The Chairman. What employees receive travel commissions issued 
 by the Postmaster General? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. First, the Assistant Postmasters General, the minor 
 officers of the department whose duties require them to travel, and the 
 post-office inspectors. Now, in making this answer, of course I would 
 like to have it understood that the issuance of these orders not being 
 under my jurisdiction, I am answering not from absolute knowledge, 
 but to the best of my information. 
 
 The Chairman. How long are the travel commissions for, and, : 
 briefly, what are their terms? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. They are issued for the calendar year. 
 
 The Chairman. Has the Postmaster General authority to issue: 
 these travel commissions as he desires under the limitations and 
 restrictions that you have stated, that the individual must at the time 
 be in the employ of the post-office service? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes; but they are only issued, as I understand it, 
 to these duly accredited officers and agents of the service whose duties 
 require them to travel. 
 
 The Chairman. "Well, could not the Postmaster General designate 
 or request an employee of the Post Office Department to take a trip 
 on post-office business? Hasn't he the discretionary power to do 
 
PARCEL POST. . 127 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And the plenary power to issue this commission 
 f he sees fit ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. He has the authoritjr under Revised Statutes, sec- 
 ion 4019, to employ the Assistant Postmasters General and superin- 
 ;endents of the department as special agents — post-office inspectors — 
 md issue commissions to them. 
 The Chairman. Resulting in free transportation to the individual ? 
 Mr. Stewart. It would be transportation for which there would 
 be no specific compensation paid. It would be covered by the general 
 payment to the railroad company, and the duty of carrying them 
 would devolve upon the companies as a part of their obligation as 
 public agents of the United States in performing Government func- 
 tions. 
 
 The Chairman. Has there ever been any complaint that postal 
 employees having travel commissions have used them for travel- 
 ing on their own private business in violation of the conditions under 
 which they were issued? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. There has never been any complaint come to my 
 personal knowledge, except a very few where it was charged that a 
 railway postal clerk had used his commission to make a trip where 
 he was not on duty. 
 
 The Chairman. In a case of that nature, what action does the de- 
 partment take? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The clerk, to say the least, would be severely repri- 
 manded or reduced in pay, or he might even be dismissed from the 
 service. I have understood that there have been occasional com- 
 plaints from agents of railroad companies that commissions issued 
 had been used, but I know of nothing to sustain it; nothing ever 
 came to my knowledge to sustain it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. A great many of those traveling representatives 
 of the department are in no way under your supervision ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. They are not. 
 
 The Chairman. In the railway post-office car service, does the 
 railway or the Government furnish the necessary postal equipment? 
 
 ■ Mr. Stewart. The railway company furnishes everything. 
 i Senator Bristow. Racks and everything? 
 
 i Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir; excepting the mail sacks and pouches, of 
 course. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that would not be in the car furniture. I 
 would like to know if any deduction has been made under the follow- 
 ing provisions of the law which is quoted in section 1187 of the Postal 
 Laws and Regulations, the law being — 
 
 ' If any railroad company shall fail or refuse to transport the mails when 
 required by the Post Office Department upon the fastest train or trains run upon 
 said road such company shall have its pay reduced 50 per cent of the amount 
 provided by law. 
 
 ■ Mr. Stewart. I have no personal knowledge of any deduction 
 ■•having been made under that section. I do not recall any case where 
 
 there was ever a refusal. There have been a few cases where small 
 roads have desired to be relieved entirely of the service, where they 
 said the side service was so burdensome they could not provide service 
 on the road and provide the side service without loss at the compensa- 
 tion which the law allows us to pay. In those cases we have allowed 
 
128 
 
 PABCEL, POST. 
 
 them to discontinue the service, provided we could get a substitute 
 service, which we usually can. The road is generally a short one. 
 But I do not know of any case where a road ever refused to carry 
 mails on a fast train it operated. 
 
 The Chairman. Could you furnish a statement covering a number 
 of years which would show the amount of deductions made in the 
 railway-mail pay? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Eailroad pay; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly so file it? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And the purpose for which the deductions were 
 made ? v 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. That would come necessarily in the state- 
 ment. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, they are made under provisions of Eevised 
 Statutes, section 3962, providing — 
 
 The Postmaster General may make reductions from the pay of contractors for 
 failures to perform service according to contract and impose fines upon them 
 for other delinquencies. 
 
 Now, the causes are so many and varied that it would be imprap- 
 ticable to specify. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, aren't they more of one kind than they are 
 of a varied kind, or do they cover a great number of causes? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. They cover the entire range of delinquencies and 
 the causes are many. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Delayed trains, failures of service? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Failures to deliver the mails and failure to wait for 
 the connection, and other delinquencies. 
 
 The Chairman. How soon, probably, could you furnish this state- 
 ment? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I can give the aggregate amount by year for a num- 
 ber of years past, and give a general statement of the general causes, 
 or the general reasons. 
 
 The Chairman. How soon? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I can incorporate it in my testimony. 
 
 The following statement is submitted : 
 
 Years. 
 
 1900. 
 1901. 
 1902. 
 1903. 
 1904. 
 1905. 
 1906. 
 1907. 
 1908. 
 1909. 
 1910. 
 
 Railroad transportation. 
 
 Railway post-oflico cars. 
 
 Fines and 
 deductions. 
 
 Remissions. 
 
 Fines and 
 deductions. 1 
 
 Remissions. 
 
 S138, 504. 50 
 
 $3,093.35 
 
 8,654.61 
 
 1,005.43 
 
 575. 76 
 
 2,050.77 
 
 2,678.47 
 
 12.043.42 
 
 18, 082. 07 
 
 2 259.922.13 
 
 159.437.71 
 
 31,601.51 
 
 
 
 , 98,917.20 
 
 
 
 94, 004. 54 
 
 
 
 122,108.06 
 
 
 
 178. 116. 19 
 
 
 
 146, 169. 30 
 
 
 
 159,844.27 
 607. 102. 97 
 930,011.17 
 181,174.92 
 122. 182. SI 
 
 $12,160.65 
 17,080.69 
 
 8,361.64 
 12,314.51 
 
 9,435.10 
 
 $811.17 
 
 102.81 
 3,281.85 
 
 120.03 
 181.33 
 
 i Prior to the fiscal year of 1906 all fines and deductions for the railway post-office car service we 
 included in the statistics of fines and deductions for railroad transportation 
 
 1 A considerable part of this sum represents remissions of deductions made in previous fiscal years. 
 Such remissions were made because railroad companies furnished satisfactory excuses for delays to mail 
 trains subsequent to the ordering of the deductions. 
 
PARCEL POST. 129 
 
 In explanation of the large amount of fines and deductions for the fiscal years 
 1907 and 1908, it should be stated that during these years special legislation 
 was in effect providing that the Postmaster General should require all rail- 
 road companies carrying the mails under contract to maintain their regular 
 train schedules as to time of arrival and departure of the mails, and requiring 
 him to impose and collect reasonable fines for delays when such delay was not 
 caused by unavoidable accident or conditions. This legislation was omitted 
 from the appropriation bill for the service for 1909 and succeeding years. 
 
 Deductions are made from the pay of railroads for failures to perform service 
 according to requirements, and depend upon the nature or frequency of the fail- 
 ure and the importance of the mails. The principal reasons for deduction are: 
 
 Failure to perform a trip or part of a trip, and the failure to run full rail- 
 way post-office cars. 
 
 Also failure to provide local service where trains are detoured. 
 
 Failure, without satisfactory explanation, to arrive at junction or terminal 
 points at the time fixed by schedule where the trains are of special importance. 
 
 Fines are imposed, unless satisfactory excuse is made, for delinquencies on 
 the part of railroad companies in the performance of service. The principal 
 reasons for fines are as follows : 
 
 Failure to take or deliver mail. 
 
 Damage, depredation, loss, or injury to the mails through fault or negligence 
 of the company. 
 
 Refusal to transport the mails on any coach, car, boat, or other conveyance 
 operated on the route. 
 
 Leaving or putting aside the mail or any part of it for the accommodation of 
 passengers, baggage, freight, express, or other matter. 
 
 Habitual failure to observe schedule. 
 
 And other delinquencies or violations of the terms of the contract or the 
 requirements or regulations of the Post Office Department. 
 
 The Chairman. For. the benefit of the committee, please explain 
 the difference between a mail pouch and a mail sack. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. A mail pouch is the receptacle provided for dis- 
 patching first-class mail, and it is constructed differently from the 
 mail sack, in that it is capable of being closed and locked ; it has a 
 lock attached and it is a heavier receptacle than the sack is, because a 
 sack does not require any special construction at the ends like the 
 pouch does. 
 
 The Chairman. A pouch is compulsory only for first-class mail? 
 
 Mr. Stewaet. First class. 
 
 The Chairman. Are the railroads required to deliver mails into 
 terminal post offices? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. They are required to deliver mails into all terminals 
 excepting at. points where the department has made other provision 
 for the service. 
 
 The Chairman. Their contracts cover them, postal deliveries at 
 terminals ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What does the Government gain, then, by putting 
 on a wagon service, if the railroad, under contract, is bound to deliver 
 at the post office? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. We would get a much better service. It would not 
 be a very satisfactory service if every railroad company performed 
 its individual service between its station and the post office in a large 
 city, where we have a half dozen different routes and as many dif- 
 ferent contractors and kinds of vehicles. 
 
 The Chairman. When the Government does have a delivery serv- 
 ice of its own, is any reduction made in the contract with the rail- 
 road ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes; the terminal distance is deducted from their 
 route and they are not paid for that. 
 21845— vol 1—12 9 
 
130 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. So that the Government gets greater efficiency at 
 no greater expense? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, it entails a greater expense, but there is 
 greater efficiency. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not see where a greater expense would come 
 if a reduction is made in the contract. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It is a deduction from the amount the road 
 would receive if it delivered the mail into the office ; but at the rate 
 per mile payable for service on the route, for the distance reduced. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes, but at a lower rate than they have to pay for 
 the wagon service. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. I see. 
 
 The Chairman. Are the cranes from which mail is caught at 
 points where trains are not stopped furnished and erected by the 
 railroads or the department? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. By the railroad companies. 
 
 The Chairman. The department having the power to arbitrarily 
 compel the railroads to erect them, or is it a matter of request and 
 compliance ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No ; the conditions under which they are erected are 
 these: That the department requires the railroad to provide a suit- 
 able means of receiving and delivering the mails at stations where 
 the company does not stop its trains and where an exchange is 
 necessary. Now, if the company desires to stop its trains, we do 
 not require them to put up any cranes, but if they want to run 
 through and the mails can be received that way, then we require 
 them to put up an appliance satisfactory to the department, and 
 they put it up at their own expense. 
 
 The Chairman. You compel them to do that unless they stop the 
 train? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Does this plan of receiving and delivering mail 
 while a train is running at high speed cause any considerable losses 
 or damage to mail matter? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No; very little. Comparatively speaking, very 
 little. 
 
 The Chairman. Is any attempt made to separate packages from 
 letters in transmission by the railroads? If so, to what extent is 
 this now done? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Letters would always go in pouches, and packages, 
 unless sealed and paid for as first-class "mail, would go in sacks. 
 
 The Chairman. No distribution or segregation being made other 
 than the first-class mail going into pouches? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Not originally. In the railway post-office cars 
 the two classes would be handled separately ; for example, we have 
 the letter case, where we distribute all the first-class mail and cir- 
 culars, and we have the paper racks and boxes for the distribution- 
 of the second, third, and fourth classes of mail matter, except cir- 
 culars handled as letters. 
 
 The Chairman. There is no separation made in the second, third, 
 and fourth classes? They all go into the sacks? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Into the sacks, except circulars handled as letters. 
 
 The Chairman. In separate sacks? 
 
PARCEL POST. 131 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No ; excepting where sacks of second class are made 
 up in publishing offices for through transportation ; then, of course, 
 they are not opened. 
 
 The Chairman. Do all classes of mail matter travel at the same 
 speed and receive the same attention with respect to collection and 
 delivery, so far as you know ? 
 Mr. Stewart. As a general rule I think that is correct. We do 
 1 not attempt to make any distinction in the transportation of mail 
 matter, with, of course, the exception that we are now, as you are 
 aware, transporting through the third contract section certain 
 periodical mail matter in fast freight trains. 
 
 The Chairman. And as I understand from the experiments that 
 you have made in that direction you would expect by the general 
 adoption of that system to save to the Government some $1,200,000 
 a year? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. We will save that much in that section this year, 
 and next year we will save a little more than that amount in that 
 one section. 
 The Chairman. In that one section ? 
 Mr. Stewart. In that one section. 
 
 The Chairman. That being the heaviest section of the four, having 
 the largest volume of business? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir; the largest volume of business is there; 
 yet, when we weigh the first section, which includes the New England 
 States, New York, and Pennsylvania, there will be quite a large sav- 
 ing in that section, perhaps as large as in the middle section. In the 
 southern and the western sections the saving will not be so large. 
 
 The Chairman. If a parcel-post law were enacted; that is, the 
 present scope increased to, say, 11 pounds maximum weight limit, 
 and at a decreased rate of postage, would j r ou suggest the parcels be 
 given different treatment than letter mail, especially as regards rail- 
 road transportation ; that is, speed of service is the particular point 
 I want to get at there ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. If the rate which may 'be fixed by Congress were 
 compensatory for the fastest service, I would see no reason for mak- 
 ing any distinction ; but if it were necessary to provide a slower serv- 
 ice, such, for instance, as we are providing for periodical matter, in 
 order to bring the rate to a compensatory basis, I think a slower 
 service would be justified. 
 
 The Chairman. In your opinion, could two services be estab- 
 lished — a fast and a slower service? 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 The Chairman. At different rates? 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Which, in your judgment, would be advisable, 
 at least for consideration ? 
 Mr. Stewart. I think it ought to be considered. 
 The Chairman. What work is done by the screened-wagon 
 service ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The screened-wagon service is a regular contract 
 seryice, with a prescribed kind of equipment, which the department 
 provides in the large cities for the transportation of mails between 
 the post office, postal stations, railroad stations, and steamboat 
 wharves, and between any of them. 
 
132 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 The Chairman. This is all done under contract? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, could the Government accomplish this work 
 to better advantage if it owned the equipment and paid the drivers, 
 in jour opinion? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, I don't feel that I am competent at this time 
 to say. The question has been considered in the department. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you will say " under consideration " ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Is any assistance given the screen wagon or 
 other contractors by the postal employees ? Do they assist in loading; 
 or unloading ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No; the screen wagon contractor is required to 
 furnish all the assistance necessary to load and unload his wagons. 
 At the post office the post-office clerks deliver the mails on trucks, or 
 otherwise, on the platform, where the screen wagon contractor 
 takes them and loads them into his wagons. At the train the wagon 
 contractor delivers and receives the mails at the car door, where it 
 is practicable to deliver arid receive them in that manner. Other- 
 wise he delivers and receives them at the baggage room, and the 
 service between the baggage room and the cars is performed by the 
 railroad employees. Where the service devolves on the railroad com- 
 pany, its employees deliver the mails at and receive them from the 
 cars where we have railway postal clerks on duty. Otherwise the 
 railroad company takes entire charge of the mails. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly describe the present extent of the 
 pneumatic-tube service and the results which have been accom- 
 plished in this direction? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. We have pneumatic-tube service in Boston, New 
 York, Brooklyn, Philadelphia, Chicago, and St. Louis, under con- 
 tracts which were entered into in 1906. These contracts are for a 
 period of about 10 years. 
 
 The Chairman. In every case? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. In every case ; they expire June 30, 1916. 
 
 The Chairman. Are all the services the same in those different 
 cities? In other words, is the service in New York typical of the 
 service in Chicago, Boston, and Philadelphia ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir ; although there are slight differences, but 
 differences that do not affect the service materially. 
 
 The Chairman. Are they all with the- American Pneumatic 
 Tube Co.? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The contracting companies are different corpora- 
 tions in each city, but I understand that all except the company 
 operating in Philadelphia are practically controlled by the American 
 Pneumatic Service Co. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the parent company? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is the compensation upon the same basis in all 
 the cities? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir ; $17,000 per mile per annum. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And you only put it in where you think the 
 business justifies it? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They operate the tube, do they? 
 
PARCEL POST. 133 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And pay for all renewals? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir; pav for everything. 
 
 The Chairman. The installation and keeping up the efficiency? 
 
 Senator Beistow. Are there any other tube companies that are 
 competitive with this tube company ? ■ 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Mr. Chairman, referring to my answer to your 
 question as to the companies that are the contractors, an exception 
 should be made in the case of Philadelphia. The service there is 
 contracted for with a company that has no connection with the 
 American Pneumatic Service Co. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is it the same kind of a tube or a different tube ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The same kind of a tube. 
 
 The Chairman. The same principle? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. An 8-inch tube. They control different patents, 
 but the service is practically the same thing. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The New York and Brooklvn tubes are 8-inch 
 tubes? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. They are all 8-inch tubes, excepting in Philadelphia 
 and Boston. In Philadelphia there is a short line of 6-inch tube 
 fifty-six hundredths of a mile. In Boston there are 4.81 miles of 10- 
 inch tube which was constructed before the contract was made, and 
 is used to transmit the regular carrier for the 8-inch system. 
 
 The Chairman. How do they work, and why did they reduce the 
 size from 10 to 8 inches ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. It was put in for commercial purposes, and when 
 the department made a contract with the company, we contracted for 
 a uniform tube of 8 inches except in the cases named. 
 
 The Chairman. Does that 8 inches mean the diameter of the tube 
 or the diameter of the cartridge ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Eight-inch tube, inside measurement. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the diameter of the cartridge? - 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The inside of the receptacle? 
 
 The. Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The carrier fits the tube closely, and our carrier for 
 an 8-inch tube is placed in the carrier that operates in this 10-inch 
 tube ; we do that because we have to have the carriers interchangeable 
 between the lines. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Isn't there a company that has another tube that 
 is seeking a contract with the Government, that proposes to provide 
 one with a much larger capacity ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir; a company organized, I believe, with head- 
 quarters in Chicago, proposes to put in an experimental line in 
 Cincinnati. 
 
 The Chairman. At their own expense? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. At their own expense, between the post office and 
 the Union Station, being a little less than a mile, and to operate it six 
 months without charge to the department. 
 
 The Chairman. What size tube ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. A 30-inch tube. After six months' satisfactory 
 service the company will make a contract with the department for a 
 limited period at the same rate per mile per annum as we are now 
 paying for the 8-inch tube. The proposition was submitted to Con- 
 gress at its last session and they passed a law authorizing the Post- 
 
134 PARCEL POST. 
 
 master General to make such a contract in Cincinnati. Under that 
 statute an advertisement was issued, in response to which we received 
 the proposal of this company to put in this line, which was accepted. 
 The conditions are that they will build the double line of 30-inch 
 tubes, operate it six months without expense to the department, and, 
 if satisfactory, the department has the option of making a contract 
 with them for $17,000 per mile per annum until June 30, 1913. Of 
 course, they can not operate a tube like that for $17,000 per mile per 
 annum without loss. 
 
 The Chairman. Then what? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Then the question will be entirely open for the de- 
 partment and for Congress to consider whether the contract shall be 
 extended or the construction of 30-inch tubes authorized at the cost 
 which shall have been ascertained by the experiment. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Can the department determine what the cost is? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. We will be able when that line shall have been built 
 and operated, because we will require the contractor to show to us 
 what the cost of operation is. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And what the cost of construction is ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you think it will be better for the department 
 to construct and operate these tubes themselves ? 
 
 The Chairman. That is to own them, you mean ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. Do you think it would be better for the 
 department to construct and operate and own these tubes than to lease 
 them ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, if we were going to build .the tubes ourselves, 
 I should say yes. If the proposition is to purchase the tubes that are 
 already constructed, I should say yes, if you could get them at the 
 right price. We had an inquiry, you will remember, a couple of years 
 ago on that subject, as to whether it would be advisable for the Gov- 
 ernment to purchase the existing tubes, and a committee went into the 
 matter very thoroughly, made an examination of the existing plants, 
 the cost of construction, and the cost of operation and reported ad- 
 versely to purchase at that time. One of the controlling reasons for 
 that was that the Government had a contract which at that time, I 
 believe, had about six years to run, and the committee thought it 
 would be well for the Government to get the benefit of experience 
 during that five or six years in the improvement of machinery and 
 in the operation of the service before it should make a purchase, if it 
 desired to do so. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, if this 30-inch tube in Cincinnati is a suc- 
 cess, wouldn't it be a very great improvement over the present tube 
 service in New York and Brooklyn ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; but it would cost a great deal more money. 
 
 Senator Bristow. More money to install or to operate? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. More money to install. I am not in a position to 
 say about the cost of operation. 
 
 The Chairman. Probably a little more money for maintenance, 
 but I can not see where there would be any additional cost in opera- 
 tion, except for power. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What is the principal cost of installation? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. As I .recall it, it is the cost of laying the tubes in 
 the street, the cost of the tubes themselves and all the necessary 
 
PARCEL POST. 135 
 
 appurtenances and machinery, including the terminal receiving and 
 dispatching apparatus and the cost of installation. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And the cost of laying the tube in the street, 
 the excavation and replacing the sidewalks, and so forth, would be 
 very little more for a 30-inch tube, would it not, than for an 8-inch 
 tube? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. If it were simply laying a tube that is already con- 
 structed, I presume that would be correct; but this 30-inch tube 
 which is proposed is a tube which is to be constructed in the trench ; 
 that is, it is not an iron pipe that can be laid down, but is of a con- 
 crete construction that is to be built in the trench. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And very much more permanent and durable 
 when once placed there. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I presume so. I don't suppose there would be the 
 deterioration there would be in a metal pipe. 
 
 Senator Bristow. A 30-inch tube operated with the rapidity that 
 it would between, say, the New York post office and the Pennsylvania 
 Station? 
 
 The Chairman. About a mile and a half a minute; isn't that the 
 speed. Seven miles in three minutes, I think, they said in New York. 
 I will not be certain about that. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Mail bags could go into that service, and 
 wouldn't it greatly relieve the wagon service ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Oh, yes; there is no question but what it would be 
 a great improvement, if we can get it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Very much more desirable than the present 8-inch 
 tube, isn't it ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Would it be practicable to send parcels by this 
 means, or is the service suitable only for letters? 
 
 ■Mr. Stewart. At the present, only for letters. 
 
 The Chairman. But with the 30-inch tube there would be no 
 trouble about sending parcels within that limit ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Under an enlarged parcel-post system, increasing 
 the weight limit to 11 pounds and decreasing the rate of postage to 
 an average of, say, 8 or 10 cents per pound, do you think packages 
 should be handled in hampers constructed of wicker ware or pouches 
 or sacks ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I think the majority of packages could be handled 
 in the usual sacks. Of course, unless you make restrictions and en- 
 force them you might have fragile articles for which you would 
 have to provide hampers, the same as we do in the international 
 parcel post; but the number of those would probably be quite small 
 compared with the total number. However, articles which are con- 
 veyed in hampers on board the steamers are placed in our usual equip- 
 ment for transportation on arrival here. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, does the international parcel post permit 
 the carriage of articles which our own 4-pound-limit parcel post does 
 not permit? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Generally speaking, mails that go in our inter- 
 national parcel post are such mails as are admissible to the mails in 
 country of origin, and which are not especially prohibited by the 
 
136 PARCEL POST. 
 
 country of receipt, but in the domestic parcel post of some of the. 
 European countries, I am informed that they carry 
 
 The Chairman. Eggs, butter, vegetables, and almost everything? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Most everything except enplosives. Should parcels 
 be sent along with other mail or segregated, do you think, if the 
 present scope were enlarged? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I would separate them. If the present scope was 
 enlarged, I would separate them so far as handling is concerned, but I 
 they might be sent, for instance, on the same mail trains. 
 
 The Chairman. You would make the separation at the initial 
 point ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you suggest sending them by slower trains 
 in certain cases than those used for the carriage of letter mail ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. As I said before, I think that would be justified, if 
 it were necessary to do so, on account of the rates fixed. 
 
 The Chairman. It would be regulated by the rates? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the average rate for the international 1 
 parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. All of our conventions fix a rate of 12 cents a pound. 
 
 The Chairman. On a pound basis or a fraction of a pound? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; and a fraction of a pound. 
 
 The Chairman. Is this rate invariable to all countries with which 
 we have a parcel-post convention? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Are those arrangements entered into by the Post- 
 master General, with the advice and consent of the President? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it possible to mail certain parcels to foreign 
 countries at a charge lower than the American citizen has to pay for' 
 transmission of domestic mails in the United States ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; there are cases where that would result ; if you 
 mail a parcel to one of these countries, with which we have a con- 
 vention, and pay for the transmission at 12 cents a pound, or a frac- 
 tion thereof, whereas our rate on fourth-class matter is 1 cent an 
 ounce. 
 
 The Chairman. So that on 1 pound we would have to pay 4 cents 
 more for the transportation in our own country than we would to a 
 foreign country ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; for that amount of weight. 
 
 The Chairman. Is this discrimination due to existing law? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Has the department recommended a change in the 
 law? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The Postmaster General has recommended the au- 
 thorization for an experimental parcel post of a limited nature, and 
 has recommended that he be given authority to change the rate and 
 ' the limit of weight for the purposes of such an experiment. I do 
 not think that there is any recommendation to permanently change 
 the rate at this time. 
 
PARCEL POST. 137 
 
 The Chairman. Has any country attempted to negotiate a lower 
 rate than 12 cents a pound with the United States, in the interna- 
 tional convention? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, we fix our rate on this side, and they fix their 
 rate on their side, so that, while our rate is 12 cents, they can fix 
 their own rate to suit themselves, providing we agree to it. Now, 
 their rate is not always the same ; but making due allowance for the 
 difference in the values of their money and the conditions of the coun- 
 tries, their rates approximate ours. 
 
 The Chairman. And the endeavor is to reach an approximation, so 
 far as the difference in moneys will permit? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, the desideratum. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Has the American Government at any time in 
 the past refused to enter into a parcel-post convention suggested by 
 other countries? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I do not know of any such case. As a rule, it is 
 advantageous to our people, our export trade ; we send more parcels 
 abroad, you know, than we get under our existing conventions. 
 
 The Chairman. I assume that you assume there is a profit to the 
 United States, on the theory that each country of initiation retains 
 the postage received ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Approximately how much of an increase in the 
 volume of mail transported would you anticipate in a general parcel- 
 post system, having a weight of 11 pounds and an average rate of 10 
 cents per pound? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. That is very difficult to estimate. 
 
 The Chairman. You have formed no opinion? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. ISo, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. It would, of course, be purely a matter of opinion? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you consider it practicable to increase the 
 scope of our present parcel post to, say, 11 pounds maximum weight, 
 with a decided decrease in postage instantaneously ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. A general system? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I would not think it would be advisable. Of course 
 it could be done. 
 
 The Chairman. It is possible, isn't it? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; it is possible. 
 
 The Chairman. Assuming that 30, 60, or 90 days' notice were 
 given to the department and the public generally before the inaugu- 
 ration of such a system, would that be practicable? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No; I should say not. Although the Post Oince 
 : Department tries to meet every emergency that arises, and I would 
 : not say it would be impossible to meet the emergency. • 
 
 The Chairman. Now what difficulties do you foresee m the way of 
 the adoption of such a system? 
 
 Mr Stewart. The difficulties would lie m the ability to handle the 
 business with our present facilities. For instance, you would have 
 a changed condition in the offices of receipt ; a very changed condition 
 there. 
 
138 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. In that connection, what change? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. You would have to have increased facilities for re- 
 ceiving and handling this class of mail matter ; you would have to 
 have more space and clerks. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, you predicate your assertion then on a 
 probable increase in the volume of that particular branch of the 
 service ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. Then, with reference to the delivery, the 
 local delivery would have to have increased facilities for getting this 
 matter out to the addressee. I assume we would deliver these parcels' 
 in some way. 
 
 The Chairman. You think that would be better than to have the 
 addressee call at the office ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I should say so. I do not think a service of that 
 kind would be satisfactory to the people if they had to call to get 
 their parcels. I would deliver them. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They do call to get their parcels now, if they are 
 bulky? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes; if they are bulky, but parcels that are r.ot 
 bulky and can be taken out with the other mail are delivered. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, is there any complaint of patrons having 
 to come to your office for 5 or 10 pound packages ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I do not know that there is. I would not be in a 
 position to say from personal knowledge, as the delivery service is 
 not under me. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, suppose that the rate should be fixed at 12 
 cents a pound, for a maximum distance ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Pardon me, will you allow me to finish that answer! 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Then other difficulties would arise in the facilities 
 for transportation. We would have to look forward and provide for 
 transporting this increased bulk to the trains and for handling it 
 on the trains, and then when it reached destination the problem of its 
 handling and delivery would have to be met. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose that if the present rate should be 
 reduced from 16 to 10 cents per pound for a maximum distance, . 
 that zones should be established and a less rate charged for a shorter 
 distance, do you think that that would result in a radical and sudden 
 increase in the amount of business? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I am inclined to think that it would. Of course, 
 you have always to consider the question of the competition of the 
 express companies, and unless the rates were so fixed as to meet that 
 competition the chances are that we would get the long hauls and 
 the express companies would take the short hauls; but assuming 
 that it was so adjusted that we would take over a large part of the, 
 business, which the people want done in some way, I should think 
 the increase in the volume of mail would be great. " 
 
 The Chairman. How would that be accomplished? By compe- 
 tition, better service, less cost, or by legislation creating Government 
 monopoly? -• 
 
 Mr. Stewart. It might be accomplished in two ways — one by the 
 ability of the Post Office Department through the action of Congress 
 to fix rates in a way to successfully compete with the express com- 
 panies on all the classes of business, and, of course, the other way 
 
PABCEL POST. 139 
 
 would be to assume a Government monopoly and give all the busi- 
 ness to the Government. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you believe in that, Mr. Stewart ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. You mean in Government monopoly ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; do you favor that, I mean ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The Government monopolizes the carriage of first- 
 class mail, but never has assumed a monopoly of any other class. I 
 am not prepared to express an opinion as to whether it should extend 
 that monopoly to the fourth class. 
 
 The Chairman. You think that is entirely a function of Congress ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, Mr. Stewart, suppose the maximum rate 
 should be left as it is — a cent an ounce — and reductions should be 
 made in the rate for shorter distance that might be fixed, so that the 
 minimum would be for a short distance, say it would be a quarter of a 
 cent an ounce, or 4 cents a pound, do you think that that would result 
 in a dangerous congestion of business with the present facilities? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I am inclined to think that it would draw into the 
 service a large volume of mail, and a volume which we are not im- 
 mediately prepared to handle in the right way. Our facilities are 
 used almost to the limit now. 
 
 The Chairman. All the year around? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, not all the year round; no. But say, on a 
 very fair average. When the great stress comes in the Christmas 
 season, when the volume of mails exceed so greatly the volume at 
 other seasons, we meet that only by extraordinary provisions. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the increase at the Christmas season of the 
 volume of mail, in per cent, roughly estimated — what do you judge 
 over the normal amount of volume of business ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I think I can furnish you an estimate of that. I 
 would not want to venture without doing so. 
 
 The Chairman. Couldn't you give a guess, or would it be a mere 
 matter of opinion, to be verified later by investigation and report? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes. Oh, I should say 25 per cent would be very 
 conservative. 
 
 The Chairman. You are able to take care of that ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. We are able to take care of that only by most ex- 
 traordinary effort. We put on additional forces, for instance, on 
 the railway postal lines. 
 
 Senator Bbistow. You draw on your substitute forces ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; and put on' additional men, wholly new em- 
 ployees, and the regular force works overtime. 
 ' Senator Bristow. How long does that period last ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. From about the 15th of December to the 25th of 
 December. 
 
 The Chairman. Will it extend five weeks or six weeks ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The worst part is right at the Christmas season, 
 for about 10 days. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it not true that every class of mail is increased 
 in that period — the first, second, third, and fourth classes ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Second class would not increase much. The princi- 
 pal increase is in fourth-class and registered mails. 
 
 The Chairman. When the magazines come out with the holiday 
 numbers, don't they get out extra copies? 
 
140 PAECEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, the holiday numbers come out early, you 
 know. 
 
 The Chairman. Don't you think it would be fair to say that the 
 whole of the four classes of mail are increased, say, about equally in 
 percentage ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No; I should say the fourth-class and registered 
 mails would be increased in the greater percentage, because that 
 would cover the gifts. 
 
 The Chairman. Then your estimated increase of 25 per cent ap- 
 plies to the fourth class, and to the fourth class only? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I was referring to the entire volume of mail at that 
 time. 
 
 The Chairman. What percentage of the entire volume of mail 
 does the fourth class now constitute in weight? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The weighing of 1907 showed fourth class to be 
 4.79 per cent of the total amount of the mail — the mail taken alone,' 
 without equipment. 
 
 The Chairman. Less than 5 per cent? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. So if your volume doubled by increasing your 
 present scope, or trebled, or quadrupled on your fourth-class matter, 
 you still would not have the volume of business to handle that you 
 do now during the six weeks period of the holidays ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No ; I think not. 
 
 The Chairman. And you are able, with extraordinary force, dur- 
 ing the holiday period to handle the estimated 25 per cent' increase in 
 the general four classes? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; but we could not keep that up without greatly 
 increasing our force, of course. 
 
 The Chairman. I know ; but it' would be done. You would not 
 meet with an obstacle you could not overcome, because you do over- 
 come the peak of the holiday business. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. With considerable effort. As I say, the Post Office 
 Department attempts to meet every emergency. 
 
 The Chairman. Approximately how much of the total post-office 4 
 work is now done on the railway postal cars ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I should say between 80 or 90 per cent of the mails 
 originating in post offices is transported on railroads, and that of the 
 mails so transported, about 60 to 70 per cent is distributed in the 
 railway post offices. 
 
 The Chairman. Those cars are really traveling post offices? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you believe that more or less post-office work 
 could be done en route under a parcel-post system ? In other words, 
 I mean by a parcel-post system an increased scope of the present 
 system up to 11 pounds, we will say. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; but if I were going to handle a parcels post 
 I think I would favor the distribution of those bulky articles at 
 either one terminal or the other and would carry them through, for 
 instance, in separate cars to a point of central distribution near the 
 destination — for example, from New York to Chicago — then I would 
 distribute them, as far as practicable, in the terminal railway post 
 office there, the same as we do bulky second-class matter carried 
 through in storage cars. 
 
PAEOEL POST. 141 
 
 The Chairman. Do you do that now in holiday season with your 
 ncreased volume of fourth-class matter? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No ; because we have not had these terminal railway 
 )ost offices until recently; they have just been inaugurated. How- 
 sver, a certain amount of the Christmas mails must be handled at 
 .erminals, for which the companies have usually set in extra cars for 
 he use of the department. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you have this innovation under considera- 
 ;ion for improvement? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly state briefly the working of 
 ;he sea pest office — how long such offices have been in operation and 
 what actual advantages they afford? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The sea post clerks perform the same kind of service 
 an the trans-Atlantic steamers carrying the mails as the railway 
 postal clerks perform in the cars. They distribute the mails so that 
 they are in shape to deliver upon arrival in port. The sea post has 
 been in operation to some extent, I think, for perhaps 20 years. 
 
 The Chairman. Under whose jurisdiction? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. That is under the jurisdiction of the Second Assist- 
 ant Postmaster General. 
 
 The Chairman. When a passenger en route from New York to 
 Liverpool mails a letter or parcel on board a ship are English or 
 American stamps used? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. That depends upon the destination of the vessel. 
 
 The Chairman. Liverpool is the destination. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Going east, then? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. If it is on the American Line, that is a United States 
 post office, and American stamps should be used ; going west, the post 
 office is designated a British office and British stamps would be used ; 
 but there has been some question on the White Star Line, the British 
 line, as to whether the British stamp should not be used going east. 
 ' The Chairman. How were those questions settled, in the conven- 
 tion? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. They are settled by correspondence and agreements 
 between the countries. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is, if a British ship, the British claim mail 
 both ways? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, you do not concede that, do you ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, the question is really still pending. We have 
 never conceded it, no, except that we appreciate some force in their 
 argument that it is a British vessel and sovereign territory of Great 
 Britain. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You use English stamps, provided they reim- 
 burse you for the amount of mail; but I don't see how you could con- 
 cede the British Government any right to collect postage both ways 
 on board these vessels, and keep it. 
 
 f The Chairman. Simply because they are English vessels on the 
 high seas. 
 P Senator Bristow. It seems to me that is simply giving them postage 
 
 one way over. 
 
142 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Of course the question would arise where we have a 
 sea post service authorized. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a matter that you have under consideration 
 at the present time ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; have it still under consideration. It is not a 
 settled question. 
 
 (Later, Mr. Stewart furnished the following:) 
 
 I find the following to be the status with reference to the sale of stamps oa 
 vessels upon which we have sea post service: The plan adopted by the United 
 States administration was to recognize vessels sailing from New York as United 
 States post offices upon which United States stamps could be sold, while vessels 
 sailing from European ports would be considered post offices of the administra- 
 tion in control of the European service, and its stamps would be sold on west- 
 bound voyages. This arrangement was recognized by Germany, but Great 
 Britain objected to it as applying to the White Star Line — the British subsidized 
 line. For the reason that no agreement has been reached as to that line, the 
 United States has not put it into effect on the American Line — which is the 
 American subsidized line — which it controls. Therefore British stamps are 
 sold on the White Star Line in both directions and American stamps on the 
 American Line in both directions. The question, however, is still pending. 
 
 The Chairman. How are Navy mail clerks appointed or desig- > 
 nated? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. They are regularly enlisted men in the naval service 
 employed on the vessels, and are appointed or designated Navy mai 
 clerks by order of the Postmaster General upon the reeommendatioi 
 of the Secretary of the Navy. 
 
 The Chairman. Does the Post Office Department 'or the Navj 
 Department pay them? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, that is a matter that is not in my jurisdic- 
 tion, Senator, and I really can not answer your question. 
 
 The Chairman. Under whose jurisdiction does it come? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The First Assistant. 
 
 The Chairman. Have the patrons of the naval post offices any 
 postal privileges which are not common to all American citizens! 
 You are not sufficiently familiar with the subject, I presume? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No ; but I think not. However, I am not familiar 
 with that subject. 
 
 The Chairman. Is the weight limit at the naval post offices on 
 fourth-class matter 4 pounds, as in the United States ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I should say so. 
 
 The Chairman. Could an American sailor on the high seas at- 
 tached to a ship of the American Navy, mail an 11-pound package 
 to the United States, or is he limited to 4 pounds like the rest of us! 
 
 Mr. Stewart. He would be limited to 4 pounds, because it would 
 have to come in our domestic mails. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any arrangements for weighing mail 
 matter at times when there is no regular weighing of the mail in 
 progress, or is it a matter purely under your jurisdiction? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No, there are none ; of' course the Postmaster Gen- 
 eral can order a weighing whenever he thinks it advisable. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any limitation placed to the weight of 
 single bundles or all bundles of second-class matter? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I think not. 
 
 The Chairman. Under a parcel post, with a weight limit of U 
 pounds and a decreased rate, would the weight of full mail sacks and 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 
 143 
 
 pouches, and so forth, be greater or less than at present, or about the 
 same? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I should say about the same. 
 
 The Chairman. Does the department now transport single pack- 
 ages of second-class mail matter and franked matter in excess of 11 
 pounds in weight? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. If a single book weighs more than 4 pounds — did 
 you say 11 pounds? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. Single packages of second-class mail matter, 
 franked matter in excess of 11 pounds in weight. Not single pieces, 
 but packages. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes; I understand you. We transport such pack- 
 ages of second-class matter and public documents. 
 
 The Chairman. But they do vastly exceed 11 pounds, do they not, 
 the weight of those packages or bundles ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. They may exceed 11 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. How much does a pouch weigh, and what is the 
 average cost of a mail pouch? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The pouch which the department is now putting in 
 the service is called the 1908 pouch; No. 2 weighs 3 pounds 10^ 
 ounces ; No. 3 weighs 3 pounds 4 ounces. 
 
 The Chairman. That includes locks? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No; that does not include locks. No. 4 weighs 2 
 pounds 9 ounces ; No. 5, 1 pound 13 ounces. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the average cost of a pouch ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I will have to furnish you a scale of prices for those. 
 I haven't them here. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you give the weight and cost of a mail sack? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir; the canvas sack, No. 1, weighs 3 pounds 
 and 7 ounces; No. 2, 2 pounds 10 ounces; No. 3, 1 pound. A new 
 lighter-weight canvas sack adopted July 1, 1909, No. 1, weighs 2 
 pounds 14 ounces; No. 2, 2 pounds 4 ounces. We have also under 
 consideration contracting for a new No. 4 pouch weighing 1 pound. 
 The cost of this I will insert in the record. 
 
 List of mail sacks and pouches under contract at present and the present con- 
 tract price of each. 
 
 SACKS. 
 
 Class D : 
 
 Size No. — 
 
 1 $0.72382 
 
 2 .554484 
 
 3 . 728438 
 
 Class E: 
 
 Size No. — 
 
 .814818 
 
 1 . 65076 
 
 2 . 497894 
 
 Class F : 
 
 Size No. — 
 
 .79812 
 
 1 .464924 
 
 2 . 240158 
 
 Class G : 
 i . Size No. — 
 
 2 . 7307 
 
 3 . 55908 
 
 New No. 4 sack • 3520 
 
 POUCHES. 
 
 1908 pouches: 
 Size No. — 
 
 2 $1,456 
 
 3 1. 2926 
 
 4 1.12 
 
 5 . 8S13 
 
 Mail catcher pouches 1. 776 
 
 Saddleback pouches: 
 Size No. — 
 
 1 4.30 
 
 2 3.99 
 
 No. 4 registry sack, now being 
 
 converted into pouches . 4563 
 
144 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the average life of a mail pouch and the 
 average life of a mail sack ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I do not think I can give you that offhand, but I 
 will insert it into the record. I find that this can not be accurately 
 estimated. 
 
 The Chairman. Where are the sacks and pouches repaired? 
 Mr. Stewart. They are mostly repaired here in Washington, in 
 what is known as the mail-bag repair shop. Some are repaired in, 
 Chicago, where we have a submail-bag repair shop. Those which 
 are collected in the territory contiguous to and west of Chicago are 
 repaired there. Others are handled at Washington. 
 
 The Chairman. All repairing is done by governmental employees? 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think it is better than if the repairs were 
 made by private individuals under governmental direction and con- 
 tract? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I think so. 
 The Chairman. You are satisfied as to that? 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Are the mail bags transported from the Pacific 
 coast to Chicago for repairing? 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why wouldn't it be advisable to have a repair 
 shop on the Pacific coast? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, the trend of the sacks is toward the east. 
 The Chairman. There are more empties east than there are west? 
 Mr. Stewart. They are needed urgently in the East. And it is 
 difficult indeed to keep the offices in the East supplied with a 
 sufficient amount in the busy seasons ; we have to watch it very care- 
 fully. 
 
 The Chairman. Your aim is to keep your surplus in the East? 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any data to show what it costs to trans- 
 port unserviceable equipment to the mail bag and repair shop here 
 and in Chicago, or has that never been made up ? 
 Mr. Stewart. I do not think we have an estimate on that. 
 The Chairman. What disposition do you make of your equipment 
 which is beyond repair, your scrap? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Some part of it is used in making repairs; the bal- 
 ance is sold for scrap. 
 
 The Chairman. How does the cost of carrying this equipment 
 after it becomes unfit for further use compare with the proceeds 
 realized from its sale? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I have never made an estimate on that. 
 The Chairman. I assume that the percentage is absolutely negli- 
 gible; in other words, that a sack worn out — that no material can 
 be obtained from to repair another sack — is hardly appreciable? 
 Mr. Stewart. It would be very small. 
 
 The Chairman. What changes or improvements in standard pos- 
 tal equipment, if any, have been made in recent years? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. In the transportation service we have made improve- 
 ments in the character of the service furnished and in the manner 
 of performance. Pneumatic-tube service is an improvement of a dis- 
 tinct character. We have made improvements in the vehicles which 
 
Pabcel post. 146 
 
 transport the mails in the cities; for instance, we contract for an 
 automobile or motor-wagon service wherever we can get that kind 
 of service at a reasonable price. We have a good service of that 
 kind in New York City, although it does not cover the entire city. 
 We have a like service in Milwaukee and Detroit, and have con- 
 tracted for one in St. Louis. In the Eailway Mail Service great 
 improvement has been made in the character of the cars which are 
 required by the department and which are furnished by the rail- 
 way company for the distribution of the mails en route. 
 
 The Chairman. You think you have reached a high state of pos- 
 sible efficiency in your up-to-date and most improved cars now, do 
 you? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I rather think so, although I have now a committee 
 working on uniform plans for the construction of the most improved 
 and the most desirable steel and wooden cars, particularly steel cars, 
 and I expect a report from them at an early date. But the advance 
 in the production and furnishing of steel cars and steel-underframe 
 cars in the last two years has been very remarkable. 
 
 The Chairman. Due to congressional legislation? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Not altogether. Congressional legislation rathei 
 followed the efforts of the department and the railroads. 
 
 The Chairman. Did the railroads voluntarily, without legislation 
 make these improvements? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Oh, yes ; railroad companies were building steel pos- 
 tal cars before the legislation was passed. But legislation has mate- 
 rially assisted in advancing the introduction and operation of supe- 
 rior equipment. 
 
 The Chairman. So you have cooperation of the department witt 
 the railroads? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes; the department has followed up the mattei 
 very thoroughly, and Congress has taken it up and, as you know, ir 
 the last year has given us legislation which is very beneficial, indeed 
 
 The Chairman. What changes or improvements would you sug- 
 gest in the way of standardization under a parcel-post system — thai 
 is, the present system enlarged in scope ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The standardization of equipment, do you mean ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; the improvements or changes in the posta. 
 cars. Would they require any ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No ; I think not ; not under the suggestion which J 
 made, which is to care for the distribution at_ terminals; but i: 
 we undertake to distribute en route, which we might do for smalle] 
 packages, it would require additional facilities in the cars. 
 
 The Chairman. More space? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. More space. No doubt we would have to distribut< 
 much of that matter after it left the terminals. We could not havi 
 a through movement in storage cars all over the country. Tha' 
 could be done only between our large cities. Then it would have t( 
 go into the cars for distribution unless worked entirely in the ter 
 
 minals. . . .... 
 
 The Chairman. But you could have classification at the mitia 
 point, so that you would not have to work, and you could hav< 
 through classifications, so that the work could be done in the pos 
 offices, a great portion of them, rather than at the intermediate point! 
 and on the cars ? 
 
 91 R4R — VOT. 1 — 12 10 
 
146 PABCEL. POST. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I think so ; but that, oi; course, would delay the de- 
 livery, which, as I said before, might be justified if the rates were 
 made low. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, now, assuming that the present parcel post 
 were increased in scope to 11 pounds maximum-weight limit and a 
 decrease in postage, would you deem it necessary to make any changes 
 in the compensation of the employees of the Railway Mail Service? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Or of any employees under your supervision? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Would their duties under such a system be more 
 difficult or less so than at present ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. They might be more varied, but they would be of the 
 same general character. 
 
 The Chairman. It would not change the character at all ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No. We would have to have more employees. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Stewart, in your letter of September 28, to 
 me, as the chairman of the Senate Committee on Post Offices and 
 Post Roads, you say : 
 
 The department did, however, on September 1, commence a weighing upou 
 certain routes over which the periodical mail matter which is being trans- 
 ported by freight was withdrawn. This weighing covers about 90 of the con- 
 tract routes in the third contract section. 
 
 Was this weighing commenced sooner than it would have been 
 commenced but for the withdrawal of this periodical matter? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. That weighing was instituted because we were not 
 able to properly weigh the periodical matter in the spring at the 
 regular weighing, so as to separate the periodical matter to go by 
 freight and to make the adjustment from July 1 last. If we could 
 have withdrawn that matter at the beginning of the weighing it 
 would have been the simpler way to handle it ; but that could not be 
 done at the time of the spring weighing, because we had no author- 
 ity then to pay for it as freight between that period and the 1st of 
 July. We had to leave it in the regular mails. The simpler way to 
 handle it was to take it out at the beginning of the weighing. HW 
 ever, that was not the controlling reason why we ordered the weigh- 
 ing in September. The controlling reason was that we had not en- 
 tirely identified the periodical matter at the time of the spring 
 weighing which we must handle in that way. 
 
 The Chairman. Under what law was this periodical matter with- 
 drawn ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Under the- general laws which give the Postmaster 
 General control over the service and the power to order the mails 
 carried on any train that might be run over the road ; also the gen- 
 eral statute which authorizes him to make adjustments of pay at max- 
 imum rates, which, of course, includes the power to make adjustments 
 at rates below the maximum. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Has the Postmaster General the authority to 
 direct that one publication be sent by freight and another by fast 
 mail ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I think he has. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Then he could order the Washington Star on a 
 freight train and the Washington Times on a fast-mail train? 
 
PARCEL POST. 147 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No; I don't think he has that power. I don't think 
 he has that discretion. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the line of demarcation as to his discre- 
 tionary power? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The question came up recently, as you know, before 
 the United States Circuit Court in New York, and the court held in 
 effect that if the facts of the service justified it he had the power to 
 order the carriage in fast-freight trains of certain classes of periodi- 
 cals, the transportation of which was more expensive than other 
 classes to the department. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What was that decision again? Well, now, the 
 transportation which was more expensive to the department. It is 
 not any more expensive to transport periodicals than to transport 
 newspapers, if they weigh the same. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. But the average haul is different. For instance, the 
 average haul of a magazine is something over 1,000 miles and the 
 average haul of newspapers is between 200 and 300 miles. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That depends on the kind of newspaper. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. True; the daily newspaper about 291 miles and the 
 weekly paper about 558 miles. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Take the Portland, Me., publications. Do you 
 distribute those by freight or by fast mail? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No ; we do not attempt to put any newspapers in the 
 freight movement. The further distinction that the Postmaster Gen- 
 eral makes is that he would not put into the freight movement a news- 
 paper, a paper which carries news which is timely in its character. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you consider the Portland, Me., publications 
 as newspapers ? 
 
 Mr.' Stewart. Well, I don't carry them in mind. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, you know those that ex-Gov. Hill pub- 
 lishes, those cheap — ; — 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I did not have in mind the publications which you 
 are mentioning. You spoke of them as newspapers. I think that they 
 are regarded as magazines, are they not ? The are monthlies ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Some of them monthlies and some of them 
 weeklies. You know carloads of them go out of Portland, Me., 
 every week? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, the orders which we are following affect only 
 monthlies and semimonthlies, but not periodicals of that character 
 which carry news matter which is of a timely nature. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What time is taken in transporting a magazine 
 from New York to San Francisco by freight? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. We do not handle it all the way through to San 
 Francisco by freight. It would start out from New York in the 
 regular mail trains at the present time, and when it reaches either 
 Buffalo or Pittsburgh it would be placed in the fast- freight train and 
 transported to Council Bluffs, Union Pacific transfer, Iowa. There it 
 would go back into the regular mail train and be transported by that 
 means to San Francisco. The additional time in transit because of the 
 freight movement is between three and four days. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Could you furnish the committee with a state- 
 ment as to the names of the magazines that are now shipped by 
 freight, the amount and distance of each magazine, the names of the 
 
148 PAECEL POST. 
 
 magazines that are not shipped by freight, and the amount of each 
 of these that do not go by freight, and the weight of each, etc. ? 
 
 The Chairman. You mean the averages in all cases ? 
 
 Senator Beistow. No ; the monthlies. It is easy to get the details. 
 It is the monthly -weights. 
 
 The Chairman. It has to be averaged. 
 
 Senator Bristow. No; the monthly weights in each specific case, 
 Can you provide that information, Mr. Stewart ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I think I can ; most of it. 1 
 
 The Chairman. What I have in mind is 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Excepting the weight of those which are not going 
 by freight; we would not take the weights of those separately, 
 Neither do we take the weight of those separately that are going 
 by freight. The weights of all are taken together. 
 
 The Chairman. They pay the department so much per pound, 
 and you can certainly ascertain how much they pay you and tell 
 how many pounds you carry for them. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Of course they pay the department on their entire 
 output, but their entire output, you understand, does not go into the 
 freight movement. For instance, we do not handle anything in 
 freight now which is not transported through the third contract 
 section. Take a publication in New York City, its output goes over 
 the entire country. All of it goes into the regular mail trains at 
 present, excepting that part which is sent West and which must be 
 transported through the third contract section. Now, while the 
 Third Assistant Postmaster General could give us the total weight 
 upon which he collects revenue for the month, that would not assist 
 us in getting the amount of the weight which we transport by 
 freight. 
 
 Senator Bristow. No. You would have to have that specific 
 amount. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; and we do not take the weights that way. We 
 take the aggregate weight. It would be impracticable to separate 
 them. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You can give the names of the magazines that 
 are shipped by freight? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And those that are not? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; that is, where they would be affected by the 
 order. Of course many of them are not affected yet, because we are 
 not weighing in the section where they are transported. 
 
 The Chairman. This is only in the third section? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. But, Mr. Stewart, eliminating any inferential or 
 intentional application to any single individual, do you thinkit 
 is a good policy that any individual should have the right to desig- 
 nate as between newspapers, or as between magazines, giving cer- 
 tain privileges to some and not to others? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No ; I do not think so, if it should resolve itself 
 into a question of making a discrimination between periodicals or 
 persons where the conditions are the same ; but in this case you see 
 there is no discrimination of that kind ; it is simply a classification 
 
 !Not yet received. 
 
PARCEL, POST. 149 
 
 of those monthlies and semimonthlies which are mainly of a literary 
 character, and do not carry news matter, and in the delivery of 
 which the element of time is not material. Now, I think that it is all 
 right and proper for the Postmaster General to exercise the power of 
 saying that for economical and good administrative reasons he will 
 transport these between large terminals in fast-freight trains rather 
 than carry them in the regular mail trains. 
 
 The Chairman. The only appeal from his decision being to the 
 courts? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Of course. 
 
 The Chairman. To my mind that seems to be a centralization of 
 an enormous power which by error in judgment or error in intention 
 might be misused, which I think is a bad thing in any Government. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. How would you remedy it, for instance, if I may 
 ask; that is to say, how would you meet the question of this transpor- 
 tation in any other way? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Like it has always been met. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Send them all in the same way? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why, surely; yes. Congress has never author- 
 ized anything else. Congress has declined to change the method. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I do not recall that it was ever presented to Con- 
 gress. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It was presented very distinctly last spring. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The transportation by freight ? 
 
 The Chairman. In the amendment, you mean. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes ; in the Post Office bill. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Transportation by freight? 
 
 Senator Bristow. The transportation of the mails as second-class 
 matter. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The question of adequate postage rate, but not the 
 manner of transportation? 
 
 Senator Bristow. It was a very live question, yes ; that is, the ques- 
 tion of freight, no; but the question of changing to the present 
 system. The Postmaster General now does it by an arbitrary 
 act ; but by putting it on a freight train instead of putting it on the 
 regular mail train, a power which was never exercised before, to say 
 the least. 
 
 The Chairman. Let me ask you this, if it is possible for an indi- 
 vidual to arrive at lines of demarcation, as between magazines and 
 as between papers, why wouldn't it be much better for a board to 
 determine the congressional action to be taken that would make 
 specific and clear lines of demarcation, rather than that an individual 
 should have that power. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, I would have no objection to that ; it is a 
 question of administration, of how best to meet it, how best to do so 
 with entire fairness to everybody. 
 
 The Chairman. Understand I am not criticizing your effort ; I am 
 commending your effort to improve the service, but it does seem to me 
 that with what information I have on the matter that for one man to 
 have the power of the right of designation is a great menace. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, now, you understand that the exercise of that 
 power is practically done by the judgment of his associate officers. 
 
 The Chairman. Depending on the personal equation. He has the 
 power, though; the associate officers have not the power; he has the 
 
150 PARCEL POST. 
 
 power. It is for him to determine. His conclusion may be based 
 entirely upon the presentation, for instancej of the Second Assistant 
 Postmaster General, but the Second Assistant does not determine. It 
 is the Postmaster General who determines. Or if the Second Assist- 
 ant Postmaster General determines, then I should say that it is too 
 much power, it seems to me, to be in any one man's hands. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Do you think it differs in that respect from every 
 large question of administration, where somebody must have the de- 
 termining power? 
 
 The Chairman. I know of no other line or branch of administra- 
 tion in the service where so many interests could be vitally affected 
 as in this particular case, because of the influence incident to the 
 publicity such a power is really a publicity censorship, which no 
 individual should have. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Now, the great majority of these magazines that 
 were affected commended our action; said they wanted to cooperate 
 with us, and they are doing so. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, understand, I am not criticizing, I am 
 simply trying to get light. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I know, but I think it is pertinent that you should 
 bear in mind the fact that most of those who are affected believe that 
 it is a beneficial thing to do, and they are very willing that the de- 
 partment should proceed with it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But you must also bear in mind that the departs 
 ment was making very vigorous effort to very largely increase the 
 rates of postage these people were paying, an increase which, accord- 
 ing to their statements, would have been destructive to their business, 
 and they would accept a great deal of inconvenience, probably, to 
 somewhat relieve them from the wrongs of this increase. I think 
 that should be borne in mind at the same time. I would like you, 
 if you can, to state how much money has been saved by sending this 
 heavy mail by freight, and make a statement as to the methods by 
 which the saving is effected, the details as to how it is brought about. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; and put it in the record ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Of course, you could not do it now. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, I am quite familiar with the facts, but I can 
 make a more systematic statement later. I might make a general 
 statement now. The estimated amount of saving which we will make 
 in the third contract section for the balance of this fiscal year 
 
 The Chairman. How many months? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Ten months; is $1,200,000. 
 
 The Chairman. The third section only? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The third section only. That is arrived at by esti- 
 mates based on the gross weights, as evidenced by the freight bills 
 that we have received for the first two months of the weighing. The 
 third month of the weighing will probably increase that, because the 
 weight of the magazines will be a little heavier for the third month. 
 
 The Chairman. How do you get the assent of the railway com- 
 pany—the transportation company— to these adjustments? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. By negotiation with them ; by taking the matter up 
 with them. 
 
 The Chairman. And they assent to the arrangement if the con^ 
 tract is already in existence with them ? 
 
PABCEL POST. 151 
 
 Mr. Stewart. You see, the contracts expired on July 1 last, and 
 they have all agreed to this arrangement under their new contracts, 
 
 The Chaikman. Have they already agreed? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You take the gross weight of the freight that 
 you receive at the point of its dispatch, and take the difference be- 
 tween what you pay for this freight and what you would pay for it 
 were it sent in a mail train over the same route to the same places ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; and for that purpose we have established two 
 classes of mail routes wherever this is being transported, one being a, 
 route over which the regular mails are transported and the other 
 being that over which this periodical matter is carried, but both cov- 
 ering the same mileage and the same road. Now, the total amount 
 of mail carried on both routes, adjusted under the statutory maxi- 
 mum rate, would be what we would pay if we had not inaugurated 
 this system to carry this mail by freight. The amounts which we will 
 pay on the freight bills, plus the amounts which we will pay for the 
 mails carried on the initial routes, subtracted from the total amount 
 which would be allowed on the initial roads for the entire mails, will 
 be the saving. 
 
 The Chairman. When will the readjustment of the railway mail 
 pay be accomplished as the result of this special weighing? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Inside of 30 days after the closing of the weighing. 
 
 The Chairman. Which will be within the next two or three weeks ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, say 30 days after the end of this month. The 
 weighing does not close until the end of this month. 
 
 The Chairman. And in the meantime will the Government pay the 
 railroad the full rate fixed at the last weighing of the mails ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No; the rates on these routes lixed July 1 expired 
 August 31, 1911. 
 
 The Chairman. And the railroads cooperate with you and assent 
 to it, and the most of the magazine companies cooperate ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And you deduct from the present compensation 
 of the railways the amount that is being taken by freight now, 
 do you ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. We do not deduct, but the railroad is not credited 
 in the regular adjustment with anything to represent that; for in- 
 stance, we have a route from Buffalo to Chicago by the Lake Shore ; 
 now, all the regular mails are weighed on that route and an adjust- 
 ment will be made for those mails at the maximum rates provided 
 by law. This will not include the weights carried by freight. That 
 adjustment will become operative from September 1, the beginning 
 of the weighing. The pay on this route was adjusted from July 1 
 to August 31 on the weights of mails carried during the spring 
 weighing. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Was any mail carried by freight during that 
 time? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. There was not ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No ; it was all carried in the regular trains. On the 
 1st of September we withdrew this matter and carried it by freight. 
 We also weigh every day in the same manner all the mails that go 
 
152 PARCEL. POST. 
 
 by freight over this route. Now, we will make an adjustment for 
 the regular mails in the usual way. We will also make an ascer- 
 tainment for the maximum which would be allowed by law for the 
 total of all the mails, including the regular mails and the freight 
 mails. This will be done by ascertaining the maximum pay for the 
 periodical or freight matter carried on the lap route. We can not 
 exceed that total for all the mails that are carried over these two 
 routes ; the law fixes that maximum. We will pay the freight bills 
 on this matter carried in freight trains on the lap route, taking care 
 that the payment on this route does not exceed the limits provided 
 by law. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the appropriation ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No ; the maximum rate allowable by law. It will not 
 exceed it, because our freight rates are in most cases less than one- 
 fourth of what we would otherwise pay for the mails. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why do you give any consideration to what the 
 total payment would be if all the mails went in the regular mail 
 trains ? It seems to me that the only thing that the railroads are in- 
 terested in, so far as the mail compensation is concerned, is the 
 amount of the mail which they transport in their mail trains. Now, 
 what you pay them for the freight has no relation whatever to what 
 you pay them for the mails. That is not freight. 
 
 The Chairman. But they have to have the tonnage. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They get that from weighing the freight. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. So far as the railroads are concerned that is entirely 
 correct, but you understand we must guard ourselves to see that we 
 do not pay more than the statute authorizes us to pay for the total of 
 that weight. This ascertainment of the credits which we may have 
 has nothing to do with the payment to the railroad company on that 
 route except to mark a limitation. No payments are based on it ; but 
 the total of payments must not exceed it. That is a mere ascertain- 
 ment so that we will know that we never exceed the amount fixed by 
 statute. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You can give a statement as to the tonnage, and 
 so forth, for the record. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I can not now give the weights on the routes, be- 
 cause the weighing has not been finished, but I can give you a state- 
 ment when it is finished. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly give the definition of a "star" 
 route ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. " Star " route service is the carriage of the mails 
 across the country where there is no other means of transportation, 
 and it is contracted for without regard to the method of trans- 
 portation ; that is, there is no stipulation made in the advertisement 
 or contract as to the means by which the mails are to be transported. 
 The contract provides that the mails shall be carried with certainty, 
 security, and celerity. 
 
 The Chairman. Does any star route have a railroad conveyance? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. It is entirely outside of the railroad system ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes ; if it were a railroad we would have to adjust 
 it under the general statute for railroad service. 
 
 The Chairman. Would any particular difficulties be encountered 
 in this case by service under a parcel post with an increased scope? 
 
PARCEL POST. 153 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes; you would have as much difficulty there as 
 nywhere else, because, as I said, the method of transportation is not 
 described, and very many times the man goes out on horseback. If 
 tie mail is sufficient, he has a conveyance, which he has to furnish 
 jmself ; but, of course, the conveyance would not exceed the require- 
 aents of his work at the present time. 
 
 The Chairman. That would all be covered by the compensation 
 if the star-route contract, would it not ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes; if he understood that he had to handle this 
 ;ind of mails, and provided he had a suitable conveyance to take 
 are of it ; of course he would be paid accordingly. 
 
 The Chairman. So that there would not be any prohibition, so far 
 ,s the star route is concerned ; it might be an additional expense, but 
 here would be no insurmountable barrier. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. No. And no prohibition, provided it should be held 
 hat his contract contemplated such a change in the postal service. 
 )f course, that question would arise. 
 
 The Chairman. What action would you suggest to obviate these 
 lifficulties so far as practicable? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I think that a provision, if Congress should see fit 
 o make it, authorizing the Postmaster General to inaugurate a parcel 
 >ost gradually, based upon our experience as we proceeded. I think 
 .11 the difficulties that have been mentioned could be readily over- 
 ome. 
 
 The Chairman. By experimentation, by very slow process? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. But it need not be very slow. Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. How long were they in completing the Rural 
 Delivery Service? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Not very long. 
 
 The Chairman. I think it was about five years. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, that was quite different. You see there we 
 vere inaugurating an entirely new service. Here we have quite a 
 )lant already in existence. It is only a question of increasing its 
 facilities. 
 
 The Chairman. And hence it keeps recurring to my mind that I 
 :an not agree with you on the imaginary insurmountable difficulties 
 if the adoption of a general parcel post ancl the necessity for the 
 idoption of an experimental parcel post. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Let me ask you, Mr. Stewart, how would you 
 xperimeht with the parcel post on the star routes? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I would select certain routes which I thought thor- 
 lUghly represent the average conditions throughout the country. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, where would you take one ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I do not know. I have not thought of that, but I 
 rould try and make a fair and proper selection. I would select 
 hem so as to represent the service conditions and also the commer- 
 ial conditions of this country as well as I could. I would not take 
 hem all in one locality. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose you took one in Kansas and one in 
 Vyoming, one in Oregon, one in Minnesota, Illinois, Maine, and 
 few York, how would you conduct the experiment? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. It is rather difficult to give you a very good answer 
 iow, because it is something that I have not given any detailed con- 
 
154 PARCEL. POST. 
 
 sideration to up to the present time. In fact, the star-route service 
 does not come under my jurisdiction. <;; 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is under the Fourth Assistant Postmaster 
 General now, is it not? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes, sir; but I think in following the general lines 
 of that inquiry I would authorize at least a local parcel post on 
 those routes, and, if Congress gave the authority to the Postmaster 
 General, I would fix varying rates ; that is, I would reduce the rate 
 now on fourth class to a lower rate and ascertain to what extent the 
 rate could be reduced, so as to conduct the service without a loss. , : 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, now, the fourth-class mail that goes ovef 
 that star route originates where? 
 
 The Chairman. Under existing conditions? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Under existing conditions; yes. is 
 
 The Chairman. It is of varied character and originates almost 
 anywhere. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Anywhere? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Yes; it comes to it from different localities; not 
 all of it, Senator, but, of course, most of it. There would be some 
 local service. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The local service, as a matter of fact, is a very 
 limited service though, is it not, for fourth-class mail on a star 
 route ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. That is, the fourth-class mail coming to a star 
 route would come more largely from the outside territory? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I should say so, under present conditions; if you 
 inaugurated a parcel post, then that would change the conditions^. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Would a general parcel post change it in any 
 way? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. If it changed it very much, it would necessarily 
 come about by reason of the greater facility furnished to the patrons 
 of the route to transact business with distant localities. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Then there would be an increased facility cov 1 
 ering the same territory that the present system now covers. And 
 would not the increased business originate in the same territory that 
 it now originates? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. That is, the local business would. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Under a general parcel post, the business of 
 that star route would originate everywhere as it does now in the 
 same proportion ; a decreased rate and an increase in the size of the 
 package would simply enlarge the existing business. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I should say so. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I can not see how a local experiment on a star 
 route would be of any value in determining what increased amount 
 of business would come from a general parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The two are distinct and separate. If you wantja 
 general parcel post then your local experiment would not give you 
 much information on that. You would have to have a much wider 
 experiment to determine that. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You would have to have a general experiment 
 would you not? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. You would have to extend it very much further thai 
 the locality, at least. 
 
PARCEL POST. 155 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Stewart, how extensive have been the investi- 
 ations by the department into the parcel-post question generally 
 nd specifically in those foreign countries now enjoying it? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I can only answer it for my own bureau, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 < Mr. Stewart. The investigation of my bureau has not gone beyond 
 he inquiry as to the condition of domestic parcel post abroad, as 
 hown m the reports from foreign countries and the reports from the 
 nternational bureau at Berne and such correspondence as we have in. 
 tiy division of foreign mails. We have never gone abroad to study 
 he conditions of the service. ( 
 
 The Chairman. Have you taken up by correspondence inquiries 
 ! or the purpose of determining as to the practical operations of par- 
 :el post in foreign countries? 
 „>M r - Stewart. I have not done so. 
 
 The Chairman. Has it been done, to your knowledge, in any of 
 he four bureaus of the department? 
 
 ■■ Mr. Stewart. I have understood that the Postmaster General has 
 nade some inquiries. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know whether he has received his replies 
 ir secured his ascertainment from such inquiries ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I do not know. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it your opinion that much valuable information 
 ould be gleaned from the experience in foreign countries, taking 
 nto consideration the difference in conditions in those countries and 
 n the United States ? 
 ; Mr. Stewart. Well, they would be informing. 
 
 The Chairman. But not determinative? 
 J. Mr- Stewart. The conditions are so radically different. 
 
 The Chairman. What are the radical differences? 
 J Mr. Stewart. The extent of territory is one. 
 
 if The Chairman. Australia has a larger territory than we have in 
 '■he United States proper; about 400 square miles more than the 
 .United States. 
 
 \ Mr. Stewart. Of course you should compare the extent of the- 
 ^stal facilities. 
 
 * The Chairman. There is very much less population in Australia 
 han in the United States per square mile. Now, why wouldn't the- 
 wactical operations be illuminating? 
 
 ' Mr. Stewart. I think they would be instructive. There is no- 
 loubt in my mind about that. 
 1 The Chairman. How about Russia or Siberia ? 
 
 Mr. Stewart. I do not know whether they have a parcel post there 
 ir not. I have no knowledge of that. 
 
 "The Chairman. Have you come to any conclusion in your own 
 tiind as to the desirability of zone limits in this country in enlarging 
 he present scope ; and if so, how many zones % 
 
 "'Mr. Stewart. No; I have not come to any conclusions, but the 
 testability of zones seems to me to be worthy of consideration in 
 he settlement of a question like this. That is, however, only my 
 lersonal opinion. It seems to me that if wc go into the parcel-post 
 business we ought to put ourselves in the position of getting the 
 lesirable part of the business as well as the undesirable part, 
 '' The Chairman. By that you mean Government monopoly or ad- 
 
156 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Advantageous competition at least. I notice that 
 most of the foreign countries where they have any great extent of 
 territory have zone systems or graduated rates. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the attitude of the department, as you un- 
 derstand it, is that it has not come to any determination except that 
 of the desirability of more information, which from its attitude can 
 only be acquired through experimentation in this country. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. That is what we have felt, although we would not 
 depreciate any information we could get from any other country. *>„ 
 
 Senator Bristow. And your experiments in this country would 
 not give very definite information, in regard to a general parcel post: 
 would it? W 
 
 Mr. Stewart. Well, we have asked for an appropriation to allow 
 us to experiment in the transportation service. Now, at present^ 
 have no plans formulated as to how that experimentation might be 
 best made. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But how can you experiment? Parcels come 
 from every quarter of the country, going to every quarter of the 
 country, and how can you localize and determine what effect it will 
 have on the service any more than you could in the mailing of letters 
 in the local community. 
 
 The Chairman. As I understand your question, it is your opinion 
 that the general adoption is the only experimentation that would'be 
 of value ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes; it seems to me like the experiment would 
 be only a gradual reduction in the rate or an enlargement of the 
 package to see what effect that would have. A local experiment 
 would be of no practical value it seems to me ; like the star-route case. 
 it would not be of any value in my judgment. You can experiment 
 possibly on a rural route out of a town, but every town could$e 
 used as an experiment just as well as one. Instead of having an 
 appropriation for a local experiment why not reduce the rate or 
 try a zone system, or something of that kind that will be of valftj 
 and will give some general and specific information as to the effect 
 that it will have on the amount of business that develops. Now, it 
 seems to me, that if we are experimenting that is the only way to go 
 at the experiment. Of course the right is legally with Congress'as 
 to the determination. 
 
 Mr. Stewart. The only advantage which the department would 
 have would be in its intimate knowledge of the conditions of the sen- 
 ice as they now exist and its judgment as to the effect of such an inno- 
 vation upon such service. Outside of that, of course, the Congress is 
 just as competent and in as good a position to determine the question. 
 
 The Chairman. You look upon it, then, as a question requiring 
 particular technical knowledge ? 
 
 _ Mr. Stewart. Not altogether. I am merely making this distinc- 
 tion, in reply to your question, that the department has special 
 knowledge of the existing service. 
 
 The Chairman. Senator Bristow, is there anything else ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. I do not think so ; I think we have covered every 
 feature. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee is very much obliged to you, Mr. 
 Stewart. I am sorry we have taken so long, but it has been very 
 interesting. 
 
 (Whereupon, at 4.15 o'clock p. m., the hearing adjourned.) 
 
SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 11, 1911. 
 
 f 
 
 j„The subcommittee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m. 
 
 ^Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), and Senator 
 
 Joseph L. Bristow. 
 
 The Chairman. In order to economize time, I will ask you, Mr. De 
 3raw, to first reply to the questions I am about to ask and afterwards 
 are will be glad to listen to any general statement you may desire to 
 nake. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF HON. P. V. DE GRAW, FOURTH ASSISTANT POST- 
 MASTER GENERAL. 
 
 I (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 ' The Chairman. Kindly state your age and present position in the 
 
 Post Office Department ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Age, 57 ; Fourth Assistant Postmaster General. 
 ' The Chairman. How long have you occupied that position ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Since 1905. 
 * The Chairman. State as well as you can from memory, please, the 
 iotal length of your service in the Post Office Department, designat- 
 ing the positions you have held and the length of time you have 
 served in each. 
 
 Mr. De Graw. I entered the postal service on the 17th of March, 
 [905, as Fourth Assistant Postmaster General, and have never held 
 my other position in the Government service. 
 
 The Chairman. State briefly your recommendations for the estab- 
 lishment of a parcel post on rural routes? 
 
 n 'Mr. De Graw. In my first annual report to the Postmaster Gen- 
 3ral, in 1905, I reiterated a recommendation which I found in my 
 predecessor's annual report, Hon. J. L. Bristow, looking to the estab- 
 lishment of a parcel post on rural- delivery routes. I will file with 
 the committee extracts from my reports regarding the subject. I 
 would suggest, Mr. Chairman, with your permission, that I file first 
 the recommendation of my predecessor and let mine follow, and show 
 that they run right along continuously. 
 
 [Extract from annual report of Hon. J. L. Bristow, Fourth Assistant Postmaster General, 
 
 1904.] 
 
 m 
 
 NEW BATE OF POSTAGE NEEDED. 
 
 t 
 
 With the establishment of rural mail delivery and the increasing extension 
 )f rural telephone service by private interests, there has grown up a demand 
 }y the patrons of the rural service for the delivery of small packages of mer- 
 toandise, such as foodstuffs, tobacco, dry goods, etc., on an order to the 
 local merchant by postal card, telephone, or otherwise. The value of these pack- 
 iges of merchandise is usually small, and the present rate of postage of 1 cent 
 )er ounce is practically prohibitive. The patron or merchant can not afford to 
 my 16 cents for delivery of a- pound of coffee or tobacco, or similar article, but 
 f a special rate were established on such matter from the distributing office for 
 lelivery to any patron ou the rural routes from that office it would be a great 
 :onvenience to the patrons and become a source of revenue to the department. 
 ■■ It is therefore recommended that the Congress fix n rate of 3 cents per pound, 
 
 157 
 
158 PARCEL POST. 
 
 •or any fractional part thereof, on packages of books or merchandise not ex- 
 ceeding 5 pounds mailed at the distributing post office of any rural free-delivery 
 route for delivery to a patron on said route. This rate should apply on]y^ 
 packages deposited at the local post office for delivery to patrons on routes 
 emanating from that office, and not to mail transmitted from one office to 
 another. The rate of 3 cents per pound would be ample remuneration for thii 
 department, because there is no expense for railway transportation, and thfe 
 system by which these packages are to be delivered is already established! and 
 such delivery would entail no additional expense upon the department A 
 special stamp could be provided for this class of mail matter. 
 
 I Extract from annual report of Hon. P. V. De Graw, Fourth Assistant Postmasto 
 
 General, 1905.] w 
 
 NEW BATE OF POSTAGE. 
 
 Attention is invited to the following recommendation on this subject, con- 
 tained in the report of this office for the fiscal year ended June 30, 1904. "It 
 is believed that a special rate of postage on books and merchandise carried'on 
 rural routes, to be transported only to and from the distributing office, wljt 
 & low limitation on the weight per package, if established with proper safe- 
 guards, would enhance the postal revenues or at least turn to the department 
 the revenue on the express-package business carried on by the carriers on^re- 
 quest of patrons. 
 
 " With the establishment of rural mail delivery and the increasing extendi 
 of rural telephone service by private interests there has grown up a demand 
 by the patrons of the rural service for the delivery of small packages of mer- 
 chandise, such as lV food stuffs, tobacco, dry goods, drugs, etc., on an ordet to 
 the local merchant by telephone or otherwise. The value of these packages 
 of merchandise is usually small, and the present rate of postage of 1 centijjjer 
 ounce is practically prohibitive. The patron or merchant can not afford to 
 pay 16 cents for the delivery of a pound of coffee or tobacco or similar article, 
 but if a special rate were established on such matter from the distributing 
 office for delivery to any patron on the rural routes from that office it would 
 be a great convenience to the patrons and become a source of revenue to tie 
 department. 
 
 " It is therefore recommended that the Congress fix a rate of 3 cents per 
 pound or any fractional part thereof on packages of books or merchandise not 
 exceeding 5 pounds mailed at the distributing post office of any rural free- 
 delivery route for delivery to a patron of said route. This rate should apply 
 only to packages deposited at the local post office for delivery to boxes- of 
 patrons on routes emanating from that office, and not to mail transmitted from 
 one office to another. The rate of 3 cents per pound would be ample remuner- 
 ation for the department, because there is no expense for railway transporta- 
 tion, and the system by which these packages are to be delivered is already 
 established, and such delivery would entail no additional expense upon the 
 department. A special stamp could be provided for this class of mail matter."' 
 
 [Extract from annual report of Hon. P. V. De Graw, Fourth Assistant Postmaster 
 
 General, 1906.] 
 
 NEW BATE OF POSTAGE. 
 
 Attention is again invited to the recommendation on this subject contained 
 in the reports of this office for the fiscal years 1904 and 1909, that the CongreBB 
 fix a rate of postage of 3 cents per pound or any fractional part thereofon 
 books and merchandise not exceeding 5 pounds in weight mailed at the dis- 
 tributing post office of any rural delivery route for delivery to a patron of said 
 route, or mailed by a patron of any rural delivery route for delivery to a patron 
 thereon or at the distributing post office of said route. Such rate should apply 
 only to packages transported on a rural delivery route to or from a patron of 
 said route. 
 
 Such a rate of postage would enable patrons of. the Rural Delivery Service to 
 have delivered to them through the mails by rural carriers small packages: of 
 household supplies of little value, which is not possible at present because the 
 rate of postage on such matter— 1 cent an ounce — practically precludes the use 
 of the mails for such purpose. 
 
PABGEL. POST. 159 
 
 As the system by which such packages are to be delivered is already estab- 
 lished, such delivery would entail no additional expense, and the establishment 
 of such a rate of postage would enhance the postal revenues. 
 
 Kural carriers are now permitted under the law to carry merchandise for 
 hire, for and upon the request of patrons of said routes, under such regulations 
 as the Postmaster General may prescribe. The adoption of this recommendation 
 should carry with it a repeal of the provision of law mentioned, or its modifi- 
 cation so as to apply only to merchandise which is unmailable under exist- 
 ing law. 
 
 (Extract from annual report of Hon. P. V. De Graw, Fourth Assistant Postmaster 
 
 General, 1907.1 
 
 PARCEL-POST SERVICE 03 RURAL ROUTES. 
 
 I respectfully recommend that the delivery by rural carriers of mail matter 
 to communities remote from post offices, as now authorized by law, be supple- 
 mented by a parcel-post delivery at a special rate of postage of 5 cents for the 
 first pound or fraction thereof, and 2 cents for each additional pound or fraction 
 thereof for packages not exceeding in weight 11 pounds, mailed at the distribut- 
 ing post office of any rural route for delivery to patrons of such route or of loop 
 routes connected therewith, or at intermediate post offices supplied by such rural 
 service; or mailed on any rural route or at any post office supplied thereby for 
 delivery on said route, or on any other route served by the distributing' post 
 office of such route or at any post office served thereby, or for delivery at the 
 distributing post office. 
 
 There are reasons why a system of parcel-post delivery should be extended to 
 communities served only by rural delivery. The conditions precedent to the 
 establishment of rural service require remoteness from other modes of com- 
 munication. From the very nature of the service it is apparent that the people 
 who receive its benefits have not access to the convenient and cheap methods of 
 transporting packages afforded to the residents of cities by private corporations 
 which do not undertake to deliver packages to people living miles from a rail- 
 road. The star-route contractors, by whom, prior to the establishment of rural 
 delivery, many rural residents had received mail service, through delivery at 
 post offices situated in their respective localities, were permitted to collect and 
 deliver packages outside the mails for private compensation. Carriers on star 
 routes are still allowed to perform this service and also to cany passengers for 
 hire, and in mountainous and sparsely populated sections of the country, where 
 delivery of mails by star routes is the only service that can be economically 
 given, these facilities are of great benefit. Like privileges of carrying express 
 packages were at first accorded to rural carriers, but in the act of Congress 
 making appropriations for the postal service for the fiscal year beginning July 
 I* 1904, which act increased the pay of carriers from $600 to $720 per annum, a 
 proviso was inserted that thereafter rural carriers — 
 
 " shall not solicit business or receive orders of any kind for any person, firm, <jr 
 corporation, and shall not during their hours of employment carry any mer- 
 chandise for hire : Provided, That said carriers may carry merchandise for hire 
 for and upon the request of patrons residing upon their respective routes when- 
 ever the same shall not interfere with the proper discharge of their official 
 duties and under such regulations as the Postmaster General may prescribe." 
 
 Believing that the merchandise carried by carriers should be restricted to 
 unmailable matter, the regulations promulgated under authority of this law 
 so provide. The result of this limitation of the express-carrying privilege of 
 the carriers has been that in some localities the people, while fully appreciating 
 the advantage of having their mail delivered close to their homes, thus reliev- 
 ing them of the necessity of traveling miles to a post office, still clamor for the 
 continuance of an otherwise unnecessary star-route service because of the un- 
 restricted delivery of parcels which it affords. In general, the restriction has 
 resulted in limiting the merchandise carried by rural carriers to packages 
 weighing in excess of 4 pounds,' or otherwise unmailable. The present rate for 
 carrying merchandise is prohibitive, and should such rate as that recommended 
 be adopted it would be an inducement to patrons and local merchants to utilize 
 the mails for the transportation of small packages to and from the distributing 
 post office and their boxes. 
 
 It is significant that when the maximum pay of rural carriers was only $400, 
 !>500, and $600 per annum, and the privileges afterwards withdrawn by the act 
 
160 PARCEL POST, 
 
 of 1904 were accorded, this rate of compensation was in many instances ac- 
 cepted as sufficient. From this it would appear that if the carrying of pact 
 ages outside the mails (with other privileges of extra-official service) yieWea 
 the carrier a sufficient income to make a five or six hundred dollar salary accept- 
 able, the authorization of a parcel-delivery service inside the mails on rural 
 routes would turn some part at least of the proceeds formerly derived by rural 
 carriers from express service into the postal coffers of the United States, thus 
 yielding revenue to the Government to offset in part the additional outlay in- 
 currcd by raising the maximum annual pay of rural carriers from $720 to $900. 
 At the same time it would undoubtedly be a great convenience to the patrons 
 of rural delivery, and facilitate materially the delivery of goods by country 
 merchants. 
 
 Conducted under proper restrictions, such a service could be established with- 
 out overtaxing the carrying capacity of the rural carriers, their horses, or vehi- 
 cles. They would be asked to do no more for the Government than they for- 
 merly did for their own benefit prior to the increase in their salary. 
 
 TExtrnct from annual report of Hon. P. V. De Graw, Fourth Assistant Postmaster 
 L General, 1908.] 
 
 DELIVERY OF PACKAGES ON BUBAL BOTJTES. 
 
 In the early days of rural delivery the carriers were encouraged to engage 
 in carrying express matter for hire and were permitted to act as agents for 
 newspapers, the purpose being to augment the then small compensation allowed, 
 There was little restriction of this privilege, and from July 1, 1902, until July 
 1, 1904, the law expressly provided for it. Thus it was possible for the public 
 to secure the transmission of matter outside the mails by rural carriers at a low 
 rate because of their employment by the Government. Complaints followed 
 to the effect that if allowed to act as agents for newspapers it was only fair 
 that carriers also be allowed to accept other soliciting agencies. It was urged, 
 therefore, that rural carriers be prohibited from doing an express-package busi- 
 ness, be restricted while on duty to their official, work, and be allowed a com- 1 
 pensation commensurate with the service performed. Congress consequently j 
 provided for increased salaries for rural carriers, prohibiting them from acting 
 as agents, and provided that rural carriers — 
 
 " shall not, during their hours of employment, carry any merchandise for hire: 
 Provided, That said carriers may carry merchandise for hire for and upon the 
 request of patrons residing upon their respective routes whenever it shall not 
 interfere with the proper discharge of their official duties and under such regula- 
 tions as the Postmaster General may prescribe." 
 
 Believing that commissions performed by virtue of this provision of law 
 should not include anything v#hich might be transmitted by mail, the regula- 
 tions promulgated so provided; and rural carriers are not permitted to carry 
 for hire any matter or package that is mailable. Since the above restrictions 
 have been enforced the Congress has, in line with the recommendations of this 
 department, again increased the salaries of rural carriers. This increase was 
 allowed in view of the enhanced cost of horse feed and to make the compensa- 
 tion adequate to. the service performed. The demand for a package service by 
 rural carriers, which was fostered in the first years of rural delivery, still 
 exists. It presents an opportunity to increase the usefulness of the postal 
 service to a large class of its patrons, and should be met, not in the old way, 
 which permitted the use of the Government's agency for private gain, but by 
 the establishment of a system for the carriage of merchandise by rural carriers 
 at such rates as will be a fair compensation for the service performed, the 
 revenues to be credited to the postal receipts. The present fourth-class rate 
 is prohibitive as applied to the transmission of merchandise on rural routes. 
 Patrons and merchants desire to have small packages of merchandise delivered 
 by rural carriers, but will not pay the fourth-class rate. Such a service would 
 be beneficial alike to the patrons of rural delivery and local merchants, without 
 injuring or competing with any other service. ' It can be given with the facil- 
 ities now employed and would materially increase the revenues of the depart- 
 ment. A special reduced rate of postage for merchandise carried only by rural 
 carriers, such as yon have recommended, would unquestionably be of material 
 value to the retail merchants on rural routes and at rural delivery distributing 
 centers, as well as enhance the influence of the rural service in making life in 
 the country more attractive. 
 
PAECEL, POST. 161 
 
 [Extract from annual report of Hon. P. V. De Graw, Fourth Assistant Postmaster 
 
 General, 1900.] 
 
 There now exists throughout the country almost as much of a network of 
 ruml telephone lines as of rural delivery routes. Incities and towns a mer- 
 chant's patrons use the telephone to order goods to be delivered. The rural 
 population, however, except adjacent to the cities, do not have the advantage 
 of delivery enjoyed by the urban population. The best means for the delivery 
 of merchandise in rural districts, therefore, exists in the rural carriers who are 
 daily traversing their routes. The present rate of postage on merchandise, 
 designed to cover the cost of the carriage of parcels throughout the country, 
 is prohibitive of the carriage of parcels from the merchant located at the dis- 
 tributing post office to the patrons of rural delivery. 
 
 These conditions present an opportunity for making the rural delivery service 
 a source of greater revenue to the Government. I have, therefore, to recom- 
 mend, in line with recommendations made in several previous annual reports, 
 that the Postmaster General be authorized to arrange, experimentally, for a 
 limited period, for the delivery of packages on rural routes at such rates as 
 may seem expedient, the result of the experiment to be reported to Congress as 
 'speedily as possible after the expiration of the experimental period. 
 
 The Chairman. Very well. Now, I will ask you to read that part 
 of your 1910 report embodying your recommendation, which I pre- 
 sume is your opinion up to date. 
 
 Mr. De Graw. In 1910, in my report to the Postmaster General, I 
 said on the subject of parcel post on rural-delivery routes: 
 
 The great value of rural delivery to the citizens of the Nation is attested on 
 every side, but the facilities now in use can be made of greater utility to the 
 farmers and business men on rural routes and ;it rural-delivery distributing 
 points by providing special rates of postage for the carriage of packages of mer- 
 chandise by rural carriers, limited to the territory supplied from rural-delivery 
 post offices. 
 
 During the past summer, by your direction, I visited many States, involving 
 travel aggregating nearly 18,000 miles. My experience and observation, fortified 
 by the views of prominent persons in those respective localities, convince me 
 that the establishment of parcel delivery along the line of rural routes should 
 not be longer delayed. Every consideration of practicability, business expe- 
 diency, and good administration favor the plan as being a probable source of 
 large revenue and great public accommodation. A proposal to establish rural 
 parcel delivery has been under discussion since 1905, when I had the honor to 
 urge its adoption. This recommendation has been repeated in my report for 
 each succeeding year and strongly indorsed by each Postmaster General. Many 
 farmers are demanding this facility, now unavailable because the present rate 
 of postage on merchandise is prohibitive of the carriage of packages by rural 
 carriers from merchants located at the distributing post offices or on rural 
 routes to the patrons of the rural delivery. 
 
 The establishment of the service would insure the earning of additional reve- 
 nue amounting to millions of dollars, and at the same time benefit the farmer by 
 enabling him to have merchandise delivered when ordered by telephone or 
 pos al card, which probably would not otherwise be purchased owing to lack of 
 facilities. 
 
 The plan I suggest is to render a service to merchants or dealers who are 
 bona fide residents of a delivery route which will permit the transmission of 
 articles mailed at the distributing post office of any rural rou'e for delivery to 
 a patron of that route, or mailed by a patron of any rural route for delivery to 
 a patron of that route or at the distributing post office from which the route 
 emanates. 
 
 Each day's experience in this bureau has sustained the desirability of the 
 adoption of the suggestion made by you in the annual report for 1909, " that 
 the Postmaster General be authorized by appropriate legislation to introduce 
 the proposed package service experimentally in a limited way, so that all ques- 
 tions connected with it can be settled by a practical test." 
 
 The Chairman. Then you think, Mr. De Graw, that the first step 
 should be experimental only? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Well, I had never up to that time suggested an ex- 
 perimental service, but that appeared to be the view of the Postmas- 
 
 21845— vol 1—12 11 
 
162 PARCEL POST. 
 
 ter General ; and, feeling that that was a method of procedure which 
 would make us sure before going ahead, I felt that we could not go 
 wrong in having an experimental service. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee would like very much to get your 
 own personal views, based upon the experience you have had in the 
 department and your familiarity and study of this public subject. 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. Well, sir, I will give them to you the best I can. 
 
 The Chairman. On how many routes would you have an experi- 
 ment made? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Well, I should think, if it were to be an experi- 
 mental service, that the Postmaster General should have authority 
 to experiment on what are known to the department as the stronger 
 route — that is to say, the routes now doing the largest business. I 
 make that suggestion because of this fact, that that would bring 
 out immediately whether or not the adoption of a parcel post on 
 Rural Delivery Service would require additional facilities with 
 greater expenditure for the delivery of mail emanating from the 
 offices from which those routes start on their service each day. In 
 that connection I should think that perhaps 250 to 300 routes would 
 answer that question, but I would prefer, if you ask me personally, 
 that I have authority to try it out on at least 500 routes. 
 
 The Chairman. How many routes are there? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Forty-two thousand, in round numbers. 
 
 The Chairman. Personally, are you in favor of the general adop- 
 tion on the Rural Delivery Service or are you in favor of the ex- 
 perimental efforts being made? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. I am in favor of the general adoption on the Kural 
 Delivery Service. 
 
 The Chairman. To your mind there is no practical reason which 
 would make the general adoption nonfeasible? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Not as far as I have been able to observe, Mr. 
 Chairman, for this reason : That now there is not a way under which 
 the farmer can procure from his rural merchant a tooth for his har- 
 row, a bag of salt, or a screw for his plow without having to hitch 
 up his horse and go to the rural merchant and get it. Under that 
 system, in my judgment, it would facilitate the work of the farmer 
 and be a great saving to him. 
 
 The Chairman. And you would confine the operation to each 
 route? That is, it would have to initiate and end on each route? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. I would do that under a special rate of postage^ 
 which would be in a way advantageous to the rural merchant. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, I understand you to say you personally 
 would advocate the starting of it on all the routes at one and the 
 same time, and you know of no practicable objection from the expe- 
 rience you have had with the rural service against that ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. No, sir; I don't know of any practicable objection 
 to starting on the entire service. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you in favor of a general parcel post? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. I am ; but in stating that, Mr. Chairman, I should 
 say that that is a matter that has not been within my jurisdiction, 
 and I have not given it the study nor the attention, naturally, that I 
 have given the question of parcel post on rural delivery routes. I 
 am in favor of the general parcel post, for I assume that would give 
 to the people of this country the same mailing rate that now exists 
 in the postal unions to the European countries. 
 
PARCEL POST. 163 
 
 The Chairman. Under whose direction would a general parcel 
 post come, particularly? Which department; the First, Second, 
 Third, or Fourth Assistant Postmaster General ? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. The Second and Third. The Second in the matter 
 of transportation and the Third in the matter of classification. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, would not your department also be inter- 
 ested in it if it were a general parcel post ? 
 i Mr. De Graw. Oh, yes; we all would be; but the particular juris- 
 _ diction would rest with them. Of course we would have jurisdiction 
 f * of the general parcel post that might come from rural delivery 
 routes or over star-route service. That would come under the juris- 
 diction of the Fourth Assistant. 
 
 The Chairman. What limit of weight and what rates would you 
 consider advisable and practicable under the general parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Well, Mr. Chairman, I did give that subject some 
 consideration when Mr. Meyer was Postmaster General. We dis- 
 cussed the matter very largely and we concluded that a limit of 
 weight of 11 pounds, with a decrease in postage from 16 to 12 cents 
 a pound, would be a fair adjustment of that matter, and that would 
 place it exactly on a par with the weight which prevailed for pack- 
 ages sent abroad through the convention postal union. 
 
 The Chairman. And your conclusion of 11 pounds weight limit 
 and 12 cents maximum postage per pound is based entirely upon the 
 existence of that rate of weight and price designated in the inter- 
 national union? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Not entirely that. We feel that that would har- 
 monize with any other rate, and feel also that as a starting point it 
 would be of great advantage to have the rates harmonize and worked 
 up from that perhaps to something more tangible in the way of a 
 domestic rate; but believing at the same time, as I do now, that 
 it would be a great benefit to all concerned if the parcel-post rate 
 » s was known to be one and the same. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the international and the national ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir. Since the international has been fixed at 
 that price I think that the national ought to be as favorable. 
 k The Chairman. But there is no reason why they should be. the 
 same, because no other country having a parcel post is guided by the 
 international rates? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Not continuously, no; but, as a starting point, I 
 f think. 
 
 The Chairman. Except on international business? 
 i Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. This would simply be the initiation of the en- 
 : larged scope? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. That would be my idea, 
 i The Chairman. Your idea would be to increase those benefits — -in- 
 creasing the weight and decreasing the cost as the demonstration 
 justified the Government in doing so? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Unquestionably. 
 
 The Chairman. So, from your viewpoint, the experiment would be 
 the adoption of 11 pound maximum weight limit and a basis of 12 
 cents per pound rate, and then ascertainment as to the results under 
 that operation ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Exactly. 
 
164 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. And then go on with further and further improve- 
 ments in the way of benefiting the general welfare? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. That is right ? sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Describe briefly the methods now followed in es- 
 tablishing rural routes? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Petitions are required from the neighborhoods or 
 communities desiring rural service. Upon their receipt at the office, 
 they are referred to the superintendent, Division of Kural Mail, who 
 distributes them to the section having charge of the space involved 
 where experts examine the petition in connection with maps of the 
 territory involved, and the maps which show the existence of rural 
 service in that community, and if it appears from the petition that 
 there would be an average of four persons to the mile, or if that does 
 not appear, and it appears that all the routes in the immediate, 
 vicinity of the one proposed were doing a good business that would 
 seem to justify another route, the office passes upon that application 
 favorably, and it is referred to the Chief Inspector of the Post Office 
 Department, who in turn delegates the general office nearest the loca- 
 tion where the route is desired, and it is put in the hands of a special 
 representative of the department, who makes a personal investigation 
 of the route proposed and reports back to his office where the in- 
 spector in charge approves or disapproves of his finding, and re- 
 turns it to the chief inspector, who in turn sends it back to us, and 
 there it ends — and we decide whether or not his report justifies the 
 installation of that service. 
 
 The Chairman. Is this different from the custom formerly in 
 -vogue ; if so, kindly designate the difference. 
 
 Mr. De Graw. I think not particularly different. I think that has 
 always been the routine. It is now perhaps a little bit more general 
 than it was heretofore in the early days of rural delivery, when I 
 think there wasn't so much care taken with the petitions in the office 
 before handing them over to the chief inspector because of ihe great 
 rush which prevailed at that time. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the maximum length of a rural route? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. The average to-day, I think, is about 22£ miles— in 
 that neighborhood. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you remember the maximum of any route that 
 is now established? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. The maximum mileage — I think there are a small 
 number of routes out on the prairie land that run up as high as 30 
 miles. 
 
 The Chairman. What vehicles, besides horse-drawn vehicles, are 
 used in the rural service, if any ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Oh, yes; there a number of automobiles or motor 
 cars used. Many of the carriers use the motorcycle with an attach- 
 ment which provides for the mail— a cabinet of pigeon holes— so that 
 they can properly distribute their mail therein and keep it dry in wet 
 weather. And now a number of motor cars are being used in the 
 service. 
 
 The Chairman. Does the rural carrier himself furnish them, or 
 the Government? 
 
 Mr. De_ Graw. The rural carrier furnishes his entire equipment, 
 whatever it may be. 
 
PAECEL. POST. 165 
 
 The Chairman. He is allowed to furnish such conveyance as he 
 thinks proper ? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. "With this condition, Senator: He is supposed to 
 carry the mail with a horse and vehicle. We have not yet reached the 
 point of saying what sort of vehicle he shall carry, but that it must 
 be a presentable one and kept in presentable shape. Some use buggies, 
 others iise carts, and others use a regularly manufactured rural-de- 
 livery wagon, purchased from one of the manufacturers of wagons 
 who are building that sort of vehicle. 
 
 The Chairman. Could the rural carrier of his own volition, with- 
 out authority from the department, substitute a motorcycle for a horse 
 and wagon? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. No, sir ; he would have to have authority from the 
 department for the reason that we have to have a schedule of each 
 route in the department and know when he is due at the various 
 points along the route, and that rule is very strictly required, be- 
 cause, you will realize, if a farmer desires to see the carrier to make 
 a purchase of stamps or anything of that sort, he knows about when 
 he is due. In certain seasons of the year in a good many sections the 
 motor car is not available ; they can not run it, and there we give them 
 the privilege of running the motor car as long as the roads are fit, 
 and when they are not fit we put him back to the horse and wagons ; 
 but he must notify up, as we have to notify the postmaster when we 
 change schedules. So, if a complaint comes in from a farmer that a 
 carrier was not on time to-day, we would know about the schedule. 
 
 The Chairman. How do you adjust the pay of the rural carrier? 
 According to the length of the route? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. Under the authorization by Congress the present 
 salary on a maximum route is $1,000 per annum. We adjust that on 
 a pro rata basis, the same way, I think, that it has always been ad- 
 justed, so that each carrier gets for the mileage he is serving the same 
 pro rata of $1,000, the 24-mile route being the maximum of standard 
 routes, except in exceptional cases which I have mentioned, out in 
 the prairie land, where a man can make 30 miles as easily as they can 
 15 or 18 in some of our hilly countries. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any demand on the part of the rural car- 
 riers for an increase in pay ? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. Oh, yes ; I think that there is always that demand, 
 Senator. 
 
 The Chaieman. Can you furnish the committee with a schedule 
 showing the present adjustment of pay of rural carriers since the 
 maximum was increased to $1,000? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. I think I have that here. Under an increase in 
 salaries of rural carriers, effective July 1, 1911, there were two car- 
 riers, who, prior to that time, received $360 a year. They were raised 
 to $400 a year. 
 
 Senator Beistow. What is the length of their routes, General. 
 
 The Chaieman. Would it be difficult to have the table prepared ? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. No. I can have a table prepared for that, Senator, 
 giving you the length of the route, the former salary, and so forth. 
 
 The Chaieman. We will have it incorporated if you will kindly 
 have a schedule prepared showing the present scale of pay of rural 
 carriers, since the maximum was increased to $1,000. 
 
166 
 
 PABCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. This desire on the part of the rural carriers for 
 an increase of pay is not at all exceptional with the rural carriers 
 alone ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. No, sir. I have that statement right here. 
 
 The Chairman. Instead of taking the time to read it, if you will 
 just furnish the committee with that it will be included. 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Increase of salaries of rural carriers under the act 
 of 1911. This is a part of my annual report for this year, which of 
 course is confidential matter until the Postmaster General lets it 
 go, Mr. Bristow, but this is all right. 
 
 (The part of the annual report of the Fourth Assistant Postmaster 
 General referred to follows :) 
 
 INCREASE IN SALARIES OF BUBAL CAEBIERS. 
 
 The act making appropriations for the postal service for the fiscal year ending 
 June 30, 1912, increased the maximum salary for rural carriers from $900 to 
 $1,000. In accordance therewith the following schedule of salaries was fixed 
 for carriers serving daily routes, effective July 1. 1911: 
 
 Length of route. 
 
 Salary'! 
 from 
 Julyl..]-. 
 
 6 miles and less than 8 miles . . 
 8 miles and less than 10 miles . 
 10 miles and less than 12 miles 
 12 miles and less than 14 miles 
 14 miles and less than 16 miles 
 16 miles and less than 18 miles 
 18 miles and less than 20 miles 
 20 miles and less than 22 miles 
 22 miles and less than 24 miles 
 24 miles and more 
 
 $440 
 480 
 520 
 560 
 600 
 700 
 800 
 900 
 960 
 
 1,000 
 
 This action will increase materially the efficiency of the service, inasmuch as 
 the more capable and experienced carriers are retaining their positions and in 
 filling vacancies a better class of eligibles are obtainable. 
 
 The Chairman. Do rural carriers carry mail from post office to 
 post office in certain cases? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir. They carry a pouch service. 
 
 The Chairman. To what extent? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Well, to quite a large extent now. Since we have 
 had the jurisdiction over the star-route service, we have found that 
 it has been possible to substitute rural for star services in many in- 
 stances, thereby saving the expense of the star service by having a 
 rural carrier who goes in close proximity to the post offices carry 
 the pouch, instead of having star service run from one post office to 
 another. 
 
 The Chairman. Combining the two where this will permit ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Combining the two, and that, I will say by way of 
 parenthesis, was the entire object of the Postmaster General indors- 
 ing my recommendation, which I made for several years, that the two 
 services be placed under one head. 
 
 The Chairman. Do they receive, in cases of that kind, any ad- 
 ditional compensation? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. If a rural parcel post were legalized, would the 
 increase of work be likely to be followed by demand for increased 
 pay of the rural carrier ? 
 
PAKCEL POST. 167 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. I think very likely it would. In other words, I 
 think that the pressure would be a little more strenuous, perhaps, 
 than at the present, although I feel very confident that the depart- 
 ment has the entire confidence of the rural carrier service; at least 
 that is the case so far as I have been able to observe ; and in the great 
 number of miles I have traveled, as I mentioned to you in answer to 
 a previous question, that travel was confined entirely to the attend- 
 t ance upon postal conventions of one kind and another, and I met df 
 r course during that time many postmasters who have rural carriers 
 ' from their respective offices, and many rural carriers themselves, and 
 while they feel there should be some consideration given them for 
 equipment, aside from the salary received for the service rendered, I 
 think that they realize that as a class and as a service they have been 
 very fairly dealt with by the Government, and up to this time have 
 received about as much as the Government could see its way clear to 
 spend in that direction. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly explain to the committee what 
 per cent of efficiency you think the rural service to-day operates 
 under? I mean by that question, Could more business be put upon 
 the rural service with the present system without adding to it? Do 
 they run at their full peak ? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. You mean in the amount of weight carried ? 
 
 ,The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. Oh, not by any means, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What percentage do you think, on an averagej 
 they operate now? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. Well, perhaps I could better explain myself in a 
 statement not confined to percentages. I would not like to do thafy 
 as I am not prepared to. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, in your own way, if you will ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Well, in my own way I would answer that question 
 by stating that there are very few rural carriers who carry more than 
 perhaps 50 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. What could they carry? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. Well, some carriers could certainly carry from 200 
 to 300 pounds without any difficulty whatever, or with very little 
 difficulty. 
 
 The Chairman. But could every carrier carry at least 200 pounds 
 with the equipment that the department requires ? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. I think, in answer to that, Senator, there are sev- 
 eral routes out in Utah and in California where they could not do it, 
 as they are about loaded to the guards now; there are exceptions, 
 however, where they are now carrying 400 or 500 pounds of mail 
 matter, and in one place in Utah I know that one carrier could not 
 carry the mail that was accumulating for his route, and we had to 
 establish another route there, which was an afternoon route, in order 
 to get that mail out on the same day — a short route at that, 18 miles. 
 
 The Chaieman. How many of those routes exist? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Oh, very few ; perhaps 100 would cover it. 
 
 The Chaieman. And there are 40,000 routes in all ? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. Yes, sir. That is the great exception to the rule. 
 
 The Chaieman. Well, would this be true, that out of the 40,000 
 routes in existence there are probably not over 100 but what could 
 carry three times the amount of weight that they carry to-day ? 
 
168 
 
 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir; that is right; in that neighborhood. I 
 would not say positively that number. Of course you understand 
 that is a sliding scale. 
 
 The Chairman. It is a matter of opinion, based upon your experi- 
 ence and familiarity with that branch? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes. That, however, Senator, should be qualified 
 by the statement on routes where pouches are not carried, because the 
 pouch would of course increase that weight. 
 
 The Chairman. How many routes carry pouches? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Well, that I would have to get from the record, 
 Senator. I do not know that I can get a statement of that for you. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I would like that, if it is not too much 
 trouble. 
 
 Mr. De Graw. No ; not at all. Any of these things I can get very 
 readily that you would like to have. 
 
 (Letter of the Postmaster General, Nov. 16, 1911, and table which 
 accompanied it, giving the information referred to, follow :) 
 
 Post Office Department, 
 Office of the Postmaster General, 
 Washington, D. C, November 16, 1911. 
 
 Hon. Jonathan Bourne, Jr., 
 
 Chairman Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads, 
 
 United States Senate. 
 
 My Dear Senator Bourne : In reply to your inquiry of the Fourth Assistant 
 Postmaster General during his hearing before your committee on the 11th 
 instant, concerning the number of rural delivery routes upon which closed 
 pouch.es are carried between post offices, I have to submit the inclosed state- 
 ment showing the number of such routes in the respective States and Terri- 
 tories, the aggregate being 3,168. 
 
 There are no data available from which to determine the weight of mails 
 transported in closed pouches by rural carriers and it is difficult to make 
 even a close approximation of such weight. It is believed, however, that the 
 weight including the pouches on the various routes, does not average more 
 than 10 pounds a trip each way. 
 
 If provisions should be made for local parcel post service, some of the four 
 or five thousand rural carriers now performing service on motor cycles, at least 
 a part of the year, might have to use horses and wagons at all times, and 
 several thousand other carriers performing service on routes where the patron- 
 age is unusually large, would have to provide other or additional equipment 
 in order to transport the increased weight and bulk of the mail. 
 
 The requirements of the service under such changed conditions would neces- 
 sitate the general use of horses and wagons or automobiles. 
 Tours, very truly, 
 
 Frank H. Hitchcock, 
 
 Postmaster General. 
 
 Number of rural-delivery routes, by States, on which lucked pouches are carried 
 
 betiveen post offices: 
 
 Maine 39 
 
 New Hampshire 11 
 
 Vermont 13 
 
 Massachusetts 4 
 
 Rhode Island 2 
 
 Connecticut 10 
 
 New York 150 
 
 New Jersey 24 
 
 Pennsylvania 334 
 
 Delaware 11 
 
 Maryland 62 
 
 District of Columbia 3 
 
 Virginia _, 161 
 
 West. Virginia 57 
 
 Xorth Carolina W4 
 
 South Carolina 43 
 
 Georgia 66 
 
 Florida 13 
 
 Alabama 98 
 
 Mississippi 71 
 
 Tennessee 153 
 
 Kentucky 133 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 
 169 
 
 Ohio_ 
 
 222 North Dakota- 
 
 Indiana 154 
 
 Illinois 138 
 
 Michigan 104 
 
 Wisconsin 105 
 
 Minnesota 
 
 Iowa 
 
 Missouri 
 
 Arkansas 
 
 Louisiana 
 
 Texas 
 
 Oklahoma 
 
 Kansas 
 
 Nebraska 
 
 South Dakota . 
 
 73 
 
 124 
 1S5 
 45 
 13 
 147 
 61 
 60 
 18 
 19 
 
 Montana 
 
 Wyoming 
 
 Colorado '_ 
 
 New Mexico- 
 Arizona 
 
 Utah 
 
 Idaho 
 
 Washington- 
 Oregon 
 
 Nevada 
 
 California 
 
 19 
 2 
 1 
 
 11 
 1 
 
 o 
 6 
 
 21 
 8 
 
 
 21 
 
 Total 3,168 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you think that at least 99 per cent of the 
 rural carriers could take on a great deal of additional weight with- 
 out any inconvenience whatever to them? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. I do. 
 
 The Chairman. Three times as much as they carry to-day ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. I think some of them could take twice as much 
 and others five times as much. 
 
 The Chairman. Has the department a supply depot in Washing- 
 ton from which supplies are issued to the postal service ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Where is it located? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. In what is known as the post-office annex, back of 
 the rural station, First and K Streets northeast. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any other depots? If so, where are 
 they located ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Not in Washington. 
 
 The Chairman. Outside? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. We have outside depots in a number of post offices 
 where we store heavy material, like twine and material of any char- 
 acter that we can concentrate with advantage in those depots, and 
 we are constantly adding to the list of those depots so far as we can 
 find space in Federal buildings that can be devoted to that purpose. 
 
 The Chairman. Would anything be gained by having supply 
 depots in each one of the 13 postal districts ? 
 
 Mr De Graw. I do not believe a gain could be made beyond what 
 we are realizing on this as far as we have gone, on this very heavy 
 material, and as to that, when we advertise for a certain supply 
 we ask for rate delivered at destination and rate f. o. b. factory, and 
 we regulate our contracts accordingly ; that is to say, we take in all 
 the advantages derived from those proposals, and we have found 
 on several occasions that we are doing better by making the ar- 
 rangement so that the manufacturer could ship direct and when 
 we make our requisitions upon him he ships direct to the omct 
 
 m T°hrCHAiRMAN. What steps, if any, have been taken to authorize 
 postmasters to purchase supplies locally where the cost of transporta- 
 tion would be so great as to make it inadvisable to send the same trorr 
 
 m/dL Graw. We have tried that several times and each and everj 
 time we have found it would cost very much more to buy from i the 
 local dealer than from the manufacturer direct, as we are doing to- 
 
170 PARCEL POST. 
 
 day. In other words, we find that we could purchase the material 
 and have it shipped for less than it would take — for instance, in 
 Chicago, we have been short of twine on a number of occasions, and 
 we found to go out in fhe market there, or to endeavor to make a con- 
 tract with merchants there, that we could not make as good terms, 
 owing to the great amount that we buy from the manufacturer when 
 we make a direct contract with him, as we could under the present 
 method. 
 
 The Chairman. That is because you get reduced rates on transpor- 
 tation for all your shipments? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir ; that is one of the great features in regard 
 to that. 
 
 The Chairman. Do any post offices have printing plants of their 
 own? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Some of the larger post offices do. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you mention those ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Well, offices like New York. I think Chicago has 
 one, and a number of other offices have what we call the printing 
 neostyle, a machine, you know. 
 
 The Chairman. Do they save considerable by operating their own 
 presses ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Only in the largest offices. 
 
 The Chairman. Under a general parcel-post system, or an en- 
 largement of the present system, or a rural system, applied to all 
 rural routes, the volume of supplies you issued would be greatly in- 
 creased, would they? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. I do not see why they should, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you suggest any important changes in the 
 present arrangement which would be necessary or advisable with 
 a view to increased economy or efficiency in taking care of the in- 
 creased business? You don : t think there would be any increase? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. I do not. 
 
 The Chairman. Describe briefly the present method of handling 
 dead letters. 
 
 Mr. De Graw. A letter now received in the post office which can 
 not be delivered, and the addressee is not known, and no forwarding 
 address can be found, is advertised in the office for 15 days, provided 
 it has not on the face of the envelope the card address of the sender 
 of it. If it has such card address, after the lapse of 5 days it is 
 sent back to the author of the letter. If it has not that card address, 
 it is advertised, as I stated, and after a lapse of 15 days, if there is 
 no call for it, it is sent to the Division of Dead Letters, where under 
 the law it is opened, and if an address of the writer of the letter is 
 ascertained from the letter itself, after being opened, it is returned 
 to him in a penalty envelope. We have daily an average of 40,000 
 such letters coming into the Division of Dead Letters. A couple of 
 years ago, I would say for your information, we issued a pamphlet 
 of information to letter writers urging upon them the great neces- 
 sity for their protection and the facilitation of business and the 
 postal service, that they place their card address on the face of 
 every letter they might write. That was done to such an extent that 
 we brought the receipts from 46,000 a day down to 32,000 a day. 
 After that supply was exhausted we thought that we had gotten 
 the_ people pretty well informed on the subject, but wejwere mis- 
 
PARCEL. POST. 171 
 
 taken in that, because we realized immediately that the receipts be- 
 gan increasing, and now they have gotten up to more than 46,000 
 a day, and we are getting out that pamphlet again and going to work 
 at it again and continue at it, and see if we can not educate the 
 people up to the point of putting card addresses on their letters. 
 
 The Chairman. A card address on the envelope ? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. On the face of the envelope, if not delivered in so 
 many days, return to John Smith. Then it goes immediately back 
 and does not come to the dead-letter office at all. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, where you are unable to find any informa- 
 tion relative to the writer or the addressee, either on the envelope or 
 in the letter, what do you do with it ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Destroy it. 
 
 The Chairman. Destroy it where ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. In the Post Office Department. It is burned, pro- 
 ' vided it does not have anything of value. If there is anything of 
 value in it, that is recorded; if it is money, that is turned into the 
 Treasury and held, under the present law, for four years. We have 
 been advocating to Congress for several years a law to make that one 
 year, so that the matter might be disposed of and our books closed 
 for that year. You can imagine when we receive $60,000 of actual 
 money per annum that it requires a great deal of bookkeeping, and 
 then besides that no end of jewelry — cheap jewelry, you know — and 
 if it is worth more than 5 cents we record it, and that takes an 
 immense amount of bookkeeping. 
 
 The Chairman. Jewelry and matter of that kind. What dispo- 
 sition is made of those? Are they kept for four years? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. After the year — at the end of the year — yes. They 
 can be reclaimed under the present law four years ; but we have advo- 
 cated that, too, that it be a year; so now we have an immense room 
 there all stacked up with this jewelry and matters of that sort that 
 can not be delivered, and it takes up a great deal of space, and we 
 want the year limitation on everything. 
 
 The Chairman. Everything of value, then, other than money is 
 kept for four years. Then what disposition is made of it ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Sold at auction 
 
 The Chairman. Public auction? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. The proceeds go into the Treasury or to the credit 
 of the department ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Go into the Treasury as the dead-letter office sale; 
 it is credited to that account. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is entered up as a part of the general postal 
 receipts, isn't it? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. After the four years' termination, yes ; I think that 
 is true. 
 
 The Chairman. But even if you had a year's limit, you would have 
 to make distinctions in things that came in every day, as you would 
 have 365 or 366 days in leap year, which you would have to provide 
 for. 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Now, we have four times that much. 
 
 The Chairman. What do you figure the annual receipts to the 
 Government for unclaimed valuables sold after four years ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Nine thousand dollars, in round numbers. 
 
172 PABCEL, POST. 
 
 The Chairman. And in money? 
 
 Mr. Db Geaw. Sixty thousand dollars. 
 
 The Chairman. Would the same practice be followed with respect 
 to undeliverable parcels under an increased parcel -post bill ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Unless there was special legislation on that subject 
 the parcels would be handled exactly as the fourth-class mail matter 
 is to-day — of no importance; and if they contained valuables, of 
 course, that would take the same course as the other matter. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, do you believe that the proportion of unde- 
 liverable parcels would be as great as in the case of letters? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. I should not think so ; I should not think it ought 
 to, because of the fact that if a person is going to send a parcel to 
 anyone, they are very sure of the destination, as a rule, whereas 
 many letters are written and chances taken. 
 
 The Chairman. And it is quite probable they will also send a let- , 
 ter separate from the parcel, isn't it? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. So that you have a double check ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. And there would doubtless be an order in most 
 cases for a parcel and the recipient would be expecting it and looking, 
 for it. 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes ; and many parcels, of course, under the parcel 
 post would be registered, which is absolutely sure. 
 
 The Chairman. Would not the question of whether parcels were 
 brought to the post office or not have some bearing on this matter, 
 provided they were examined by the postal clerks before acceptance? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Naturally we would have to be sure that they con- 
 tained no matter which is subject to first-class rates, the same as we do 
 now in handling the fourth-class matter. 
 
 The Chairman. In your opinion, would the efficiency of the dead- 
 letter service be increased by establishing a dead-letter office in each 
 of the 13 postal districts, instead of requiring all dead-letter mail to 
 be sent here to Washington ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. I have thought very seriously of recommending 
 something of that sort, Senator, but I have not yet been convincel 
 thoroughly that it would be a good thing to do, as there are many 
 questions involved that I have not thoroughly thrashed out yet to 
 my own satisfaction. On first glance it looks as if it might be a good 
 thing; on second glance and careful thought there are some features 
 of danger connected with it which might reflect upon the sanctity 
 of the mails. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the same doubt or the same mental arrange' 
 ment comes to your mind as to the advisability of turning this work 
 over to the postmasters of the larger cities? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. The dead-letter work? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. But you have that problem now under consid 1 
 eration? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. I have ; yes. We are considering that now. 
 
 The Chairman. Please state the process by which you restore 
 dead foreign mail to the sender, particularly in the case of unde- 
 liverable packages sent by international post? 
 
PARCEL POST. 173 
 
 Mr. De Graw. That is returned immediately now by the post- 
 masters. We have made that advance in that matter; if it can not 
 be delivered it is returned to the countries from which it emanated. 
 
 The Chairman. And the office from which it initiated, I assume? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir; to be disposed of under their particular 
 laws. 
 
 The Chairman. You assume it is their property? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. The property of the country from which it ini- 
 tiated, and which is paid to make such disposition as their laws 
 require ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir. And they do the same thing with us. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is that an arrangement under the convention? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Under the arrangement of the postal convention. 
 
 The Chairman. Describe the present plan of adjusting claims by 
 postmasters for postage due stamps affixed to undeliverable mail 
 matter. 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Well, that is a matter that I haven't any jurisdic- 
 tion whatever of. It comes under the Third Assistant, and I would 
 not like to go into that if I could be excused. 
 
 The Chairman. Certainly. How do you dispose of money found 
 loose in the mail which can not be identified as belonging to any one ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. It is turned into the Treasury. We make a return 
 every week of money of that character. 
 
 The Chairman. Sent to your office here? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. We turn it over to the finance division of the Third 
 Assistant and take his receipt. He deposits it in the Treasury and 
 takes a receipt therefor, and it is credited upon the books, so much 
 money that way. 
 
 The Chairman. What about negotiable paper found in the unde- 
 liverable mail ? Is it treated in the same way as money ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. No. It is held the same as the valuables are held 
 for a period of time, you know. 
 
 The Chairman. For four years? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. For the four years. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Are you usually able to identify the owner of 
 negotiable paper? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. We have very little of that, but it would take the 
 same course. 
 
 The Chairman. In that case, the maker's name would be the in- 
 ] formation? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes. I think almost invariably you could secure 
 his address. 
 
 The Chairman. Are the valuable articles in the Post Office 
 Museum listed so that they can be restored to their rightful owners 
 if such appear and prove their claim? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. They are not put in the museum until after the 
 expiration of the four years. 
 
 The Chairman. I thought they were sold at the expiration of 
 'four years. 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Well, they are. But the museum is made up now of 
 material which was received years ago. I do not think that there 
 'has been anything put in the museum, unless it should be something 
 of no value — something like a lizard, or something of that sort — sent 
 
174 PABCEL POST. 
 
 through the mails as a curio, and as a matter of fact I think recently 
 all of that postal museum matter was sent over to the new National 
 Museum, and it occupies space over there. 
 
 The Chairman. Describe the scope and efficiency of the topo- 
 graphical work done under your direction. 
 
 Mr. De Gkaw. That work is done over in the annex building, in 
 the smaller part of the building. That annex is divided into two 
 sections ; the topographer occupies the smaller section, and he makes 
 all the post-route maps, all the blue prints of rural delivery schedules,^ 
 which are sent in, either by patrons who wish routes established, or 
 by inspectors for use in the service, and copies the postal maps up to 
 date, they being changed every quarter. 
 
 The Chairman. Every three months? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. How many employees are engaged in this work, 
 and what is the approximate total of their salary? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. I can furnish that, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. How are the maps reproduced and what is the 
 plan followed in giving out this work — the reproduction ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. They have an entire outfit over there which covers 
 all points of it ; they buy the stones under contract and do all their 
 own work right in that department. 
 
 The Chairman. Is any part of this work a duplication of work 
 done by other departments, such as the Coast and Geodetic Survey? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. It is the same character of work, but not any 
 duplication by any manner of means. It is all different work en- 
 tirely. That is, the subjects are entirely different. 
 
 The Chairman. You sell these route maps to the public? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the average price? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. They run from 50 cents to $1.80, 1 think. 
 
 The Chairman. How many copies of each map are printed? Is 
 there any general number or specific maximum number? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir. That is governed entirely from time to 
 time by the Railway Mail Service. Wherever there is an increase or 
 decrease in the number of railway mail clerks, each of them, of. 
 course, has to be provided with maps to guide them in their so-called 
 schemes, you know, in the Post Office Department, such as routes 
 inaugurated from time to time, or those taken off. 
 
 The Chairman. What disposition is made of the money received 
 from the sale of maps ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Put right back into the appropriation under the law. 
 
 The Chairman. So you keep a debit and credit balance for that 
 particular work? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir. We show by our annual report every year 
 how much was received for maps and how much of that was ex- 
 pended or turned back to the Treasury. 
 
 The Chairman. Would it be practicable to measure distances ac- 
 curately from these maps, if a local parcel post or zone parcel post, 
 were authorized, with a 36 or a 60 mile radius for the zones? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. I think so ; yes, sir. Not from the post-route maps, 
 however. You are speaking now of a general parcel post. Yes; 
 those maps are accurate according to mileage. 
 
PAKCELi POST. 175 
 
 ' The Chairman. So that if a zone limit were established as a part 
 of a general parcel post, a circle could be drawn around each post 
 office, with a radius of 36 or 60 miles, or whatever the radius might 
 be, and the postmaster, with no trouble at all, could see by looking 
 at the map as to what rates applied according to the zone rates that 
 might be established by Congress ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes ; but he would have to have that line drawn. It 
 is not drawn now. That addition could be added very readily. 
 
 The Chairman. Are these topographical maps furnished free of 
 charge to any person, or to any other branches of the Government 
 service ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. There are several- committees of Congress to whom 
 these maps are supplied and kept up to date. Where they are as- 
 sumed by the department to be of value, for instance, in the office of 
 the Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads, each year the cus- 
 tom is — it is simply a custom — to send to each Senator and to each 
 Eepresentative a postal map of his district, one map, and he is ad- 
 vised that according to practice he is entitled to that one map and 
 none other, and that others, however, can be supplied by the disburs- 
 ing officer. Then these maps which are taken off the racks — there is 
 nothing that we can do with them except to sell them for old paper. 
 Some Senator or Representative may come in some day and ask if he 
 can have a map of such and such a State. I will tell him that it will 
 cost him so much, unless it is a map which has been taken off the 
 racks, and is not strictly up to date, and if we have any of those in 
 our discarded maps I would be glad to send one to him. 
 
 The Chairman. How much territory is usually covered in these 
 maps — square miles, for instance? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Well, it covers the particular State. For instance, 
 some maps will take two States, where they can all be included. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That will depend somewhat upon the number 
 of routes and post offices ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Exactly. 
 
 Senator Bristow. So that it can be easily opened and used ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes; I was going to add that. That varies, Sena- 
 tor, on that account. 
 
 The Chairman. How many maps would cover the whole United 
 States? Have you got that in mind ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. No ; I have not. 
 
 The Chairman. Have postal maps been made of the entire country, 
 including Alaska and other outlying portions ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. All of the United States; the Alaska maps, how- 
 ever, are somewhat incomplete. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, now, General, where you have incomplete 
 topographical maps, which, as I understand, is not the case in the 
 United States proper, but only exist in Alaska, would it not be 
 possible to approximately measure from post office to post office 
 with reasonable accuracy, so that if a zone basis of parcel post were 
 adopted there would be no trouble in the application of rates to those 
 zones? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. T do not think there would be the least trouble, sir. 
 After we had the idea fully developed and laid it before our experts 
 there, I think they could very readily accomplish that. 
 
176 PARCEL POST. 
 
 (Letter from the Postmaster General, dated Dec. 2, 1911, on this 
 point, with accompanying documents, follows:) 
 
 Post Office Department, 
 Office ot the Postmaster General, 
 Washington, D. C, December 2, 1911. 
 Hon. Jonathan Bourne, Jr., 
 
 Chairman Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads, 
 
 United States Senate. 
 
 My Dear Senator : In compliance with your request of the Fourth Assistant 
 Postmaster General, during his hearing before your committee respecting the 
 feasibility of the installation of a system of parcel-post in the United State* 
 mail service, and the possibility of utilizing post-route maps in fixing a schedule 
 of rates in zones, the matter has been carefully considered and the results em- 
 bodied in the attached report submitted by experts in the Division of Topog- 
 raphy. 
 
 The report also gives in detail the method pursued and the cost of compiling 
 post-route and rural-delivery maps, including those covering the mail service 
 which is being rendered in Alaska. 
 
 Very truly, yours, Frank H. Hitchcock, 
 
 Postmaster General. 
 
 (Inclosure.) 
 
 Division of Topography, Post Office Department, 
 
 Fourth Assistant Postmaster General, 
 
 Washington, November 16, 1911. 
 The Fourth Assistant Postmaster General, 
 
 Post Office Department. 
 
 Sir: In response to your recent request, I furnish, in two sheets herewith, 
 the information required by the Senate Post-Office Committee in regard to the 
 work of this division. 
 
 Some consideration has been given to the inquiry as to what the division can 
 do in the way of preparing maps to be furnished to all postmasters in connec- 
 tion with a parcel-post system. From what is known to us — too little to justify 
 definite recommendation — it would seem that the country should be presented: 
 at a glance, and that therefore the existing maps of States could not be utilized 
 for the purpose. It is probable that the system would require a map of no- 
 less extent than the 'entire United States, and the scale and size of such a 
 map would be governed by conditions imposed by rates and regulations. Ot 
 course, if kept within convenient dimensions the map could not be expected to 
 include very much details. To incorporate even the county seats would require 
 a map approximating 3x5 feet. 
 
 In regard to a map printed to show zones by circles, it is believed that an 
 edition of such a map would.be of very limited adaptation. To prevent the 
 confusion that would be caused by the intermingling of zone limits would de- 
 mand that circles be described from but a few post offices, and postmasters at 
 all the other post offices would experience difficulty in estimating their distance 
 lines — especially if in the nature of tangents. 
 
 The need appears to be for a map that would be available for general use. 
 One way of meeting this need would be to furnish each post office a plain map- 
 and a separate straight scale, the latter to be used in describing and measuring 
 distance lines radiating from the locality of the post office. As only important 
 places would appear on a general map, it might be prescribed that the distance 
 between any two post offices shall be taken as the distance between the county 
 seats of the counties in which the two post offices are respectively situated. 
 
 A map of the United States on the required scale could be prepared with 
 our present equipment ; but, of course, the reproduction thereof, in numbers «■ 
 supply all the postmasters, would have to be specially provided for. 
 Respectfully, 
 
 A. von Haake, 
 Topographer, Post Office Department. 
 
PARCEL, POST. 177 
 
 Statement of work of Division of Topography. 
 
 EMPLOYEES. 
 
 Number provided for by law, Including topographer, assistant topog- 
 rapher, clerk, map mounters, and messenger 36 
 
 Of this number there are engaged : 
 
 On post-route maps exclusively 14 
 
 On rural maps solely 15 
 
 APPEOPBIATIONS. 
 
 For personnel $46, 790 
 
 For miscellaneous expenses, including all printing of maps 26,000 
 
 Proceeds of sales of maps to public from $2, 500 to 3, 000 
 
 POST-EOUTE MAPS. 
 
 Revised quarterly editions of 41 maps (56 sheets) covering all 
 the States, Territories, and possessions. Each edition consists 
 of 5.000 sheets, which form 3,560 maps, the number of maps 
 printed annually being 14,240 
 
 Special diagrams for Railway Mail Service, prepared in re- 
 sponse to requisition ; number printed and furnished during 
 fiscal year 1911 23, 600 
 
 Total printed ,___ 37, 840 
 
 MAPS CHANGED IN BACKS. 
 
 (Each map is specially prepared with extended cotton at top.) 
 
 FOB POST OFFICE DEPAETMENT. 
 
 13 racks, containing 510 maps, are changed four times a year. Annual 
 
 number of maps required 2,040 
 
 13 racks, containing 386 maps, are changed monthly, the maps being 
 
 brought to the division monthly for correction by the draftsmen. 
 
 This represents an annual handling of maps equivalent in number to_ 4, 632 
 9 racks, containing 369 maps, are changed less frequently (in response 
 
 to request) 339 
 
 FOE UNITED STATES CAPITOL. 
 
 8 racks are changed annually, containing maps to the number of 328 
 
 FOB BACKS OUTSIDE OF WASHINGTON. 
 
 Racks for superintendents and chief clerks of Railway Mail Service, for post 
 office inspector headquarters, and for the larger post offices are replenished as 
 requested. 
 
 DISTRIBUTION OF POST-EOUTE MAPS FOB 1911 (INCLUDING MAPS FOB THE BACKS). 
 
 To Post Office Department and postal service 9,484 
 
 To miscellaneous, including other executive departments and Congress- 2. 009 
 
 To purchasers 2, 662 
 
 (Of the maps, 4,397 were backed, mounted, or otherwise prepared 
 by the map mounters of the division for convenient reference.) 
 
 Special diagrams to the railway mail service 23, 600 
 
 EUEAL-DELIVEET MAPS. 
 
 Of the 862 counties completely covered by rural-delivery service, there 
 
 had been finished July 1, 1011, maps to the number of 661 
 
 (It is expected that the remaining counties will be mapped by the 
 close of the current fiscal year.) 
 
 Of local centers not included in the counties already mapped, there 
 are special maps to the number of 10, 289 
 
 21845— vol 1—12 12 
 
178 PABCEL POST. 
 
 EEVISION AND PRINTING OF BUBAL MAPS FOE 1911. 
 
 Number of revised county maps printed 4,754 
 
 Number of revised local-center maps printed 14,730 
 
 ALASKAN MAP SEEVICE. 
 
 The post-route map of Alaska, measuring 34 by 49 inches, shows the Territory 
 on a scale of 40 miles to the inch. 
 
 It is revised and printed quarterly, showing mail service as follows: 
 
 Eoutes under contract, 60 routes covering (in miles) 210,994 
 
 Special routes, 25 routes covering (miles) 1, 834 
 
 Area of Alaska, (square miles) 590,000 
 
 METHOD OF MAP MAKING. 
 
 After laying off the projection for the required map, the topographic features 
 are compiled from available maps of surveys, preference being given to the 
 suveys made by the Government over those conducted by other interests. Hence, 
 for the features nnmed, this division is dependent upon information from the 
 outside. The postal details are filled in from reports and information furnished 
 by the Post Office Department, prepared by postmasters and other agents of 
 the service. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you believe the necessary equipment for a 
 rural parcel post is already in existence? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. I do. 
 
 The Chairman. And I would infer from the information you have 
 given, and the ideas you have advanced in this hearing, that in your 
 judgment the present equipment would permit of 300 per cent in- 
 crease, instantaneous, practically, in the rural branch of the service? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir; I think you are justified in that con- 
 clusion. 
 
 The Chairman. If a general parcel post were authorized you 
 would also believe that the rural routes could satisfactorily, under 
 their present equipment, take care of the increased volume in busi- 
 ness, provided it did not exceed an increase of over 300 per cent? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. That is, if both did not exceed that. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; the maximum ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Are rural carriers allowed now to carry packages 
 outside of the mail ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Provided they are not mailable matter. Anybody 
 wishing to send a package by rural carrier is required to bring the 
 package to the post office, and the directions to the postmaster are 
 to make sure that it does not contain mailable matter, unless the 
 particular matter therein involved exceeds 4 pounds, in which 
 case 
 
 The Chairman. You assume that it is not mailable under the law? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir; in other words, we don't permit, since we 
 have had the experience since Mr. Bristow's time, that a man can 
 buy a small package of tobacco and put in a bag of salt to make it 
 more than 4 pounds and have it carried, but if he buys 5 pounds of 
 tobacco he can send it, and he makes his own arrangement with' the 
 carrier. j 
 
 The Chairman. That is, the shipper? I 
 
 Mr. De Graw. The shipper, yes, sir; he makes his own arrange- 
 ment with the carrier. He gives him 10 cents or a quarter or what- 
 ever the carrier is willing to carry the package for. 
 
PARCEL POST. 179 
 
 The Chairman. And that is assented to and is permissible under 
 the law and assented to and made permissible by the department ? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Are the carriers allowed to carry anything which 
 by law is made mailable; not if it comes within the mailable limit of 
 weight, I assume? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any means of stating or estimating the 
 probable extent of this traffic by carriers for which the Government 
 receives no consideration? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. I had the honor of mailing you yesterday, Senator, 
 a very elaborate statement on this subject. It gives you the best in- 
 formation we have for a month's test. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, we will insert your letter of yesterday as an 
 answer to this question. 
 
 (Letter of the chairman, dated Oct. 30, 1911, letter referred to by 
 Mr. De Graw, signed by the Postmaster General, and statement 
 which accompanied the latter communication, together with a state-, 
 ment of the law and regulations concerning outside employment 
 restrictions in the Rural Delivery Service follow :) 
 
 Committee on Post Offices and Post Koads, 
 
 United States Senate, 
 Washington, D. C, October 30, 1911. 
 Hon. P. V. De Gkaw, 
 
 Fourth, Assistant Postmaster General, Washington, D. C. 
 My Dear Me. De Graw : In connection with the inquiry which is being made 
 under Senate resolution 56 into the subject of parcel post, I wish to request that 
 you send the committee at the earliest possible date full information with 
 statistics, if any are available, showing the extent of the practice of carrying 
 parcels on rural routes before the order estopping rural carriers from carrying 
 mailable packages out of the mails was issued. I would like to have a copy 
 of that order and a complete statement of the present regulations with respect 
 to the carrying of parcels by rural carriers out of the mails, and the volume of 
 such business done now, if it is permitted at all, so far as the department has 
 knowledge of it. 
 
 Yours, very truly, Jonathan Bourne, Jr., Chairman. 
 
 Office of the Postmaster General, 
 Washington, D. C, November 11, 1911. 
 
 Hon. Jonathan Bourne, Jr., 
 
 Chairman Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads, 
 
 United States Senate. 
 
 My Dear Senator Bourne : In reply to your request of October 30, to be fur- 
 nished with full information in regard to the carrying of merchandise by rural 
 carriers, I beg to state that there is nothing in the records of the department 
 from which an estimate could be made of the amount of such matter carried 
 prior to the adoption of the regulation prohibiting carriers from conveying 
 mailable packages outside the mails. The result of a count kept at rural 
 delivery post offices in January, 1910, of the total number and weight of pack- 
 ages carried outside the mails during that month is inclosed. 
 
 The first order upon the subject, issued under date of July 19, 1901, was as 
 follows : 
 
 " Hereafter rural letter carriers shall not act as agents, salesmen, or solicitors 
 for express companies, letter-box manufacturers, wholesale houses, corporations 
 or firms, nor engage in any business or avocation which would interfere with 
 the proper performance of their official duties. They may act as news agents, 
 sell newspapers or periodicals on their own account, or accept and collect sub- 
 
182 PARCEL POST. 
 
 OUTSIDE EMPLOYMENT RESTRICTIONS. 1 
 
 Soliciting forbidden. 2 
 
 Sec. 98. Rural carriers shall not solicit business or receive orders of any kind 
 for any person, firm, or corporation, and shall not, during their hours of em- 
 ployment, carry any merchandise for hire: Provided, That said carriers may 
 carry merchandise for hire for and upon the request of patrons residing upon 
 their respective routes whenever it shall not interfere with the proper discharge 
 of their official duties and under such regulations as the Postmaster General 
 may prescribe. 
 
 BUSINESS IN WHICH CAKBIEES SHALL NOT ENGAGE. 
 
 2. Rural carriers shall not engage in or conduct any business, while they are 
 on or off duty, which offers the temptation to solicit patronage on their routes 
 or which by reason of their official position gives them special advantage over 
 competitors, such as book canvassing, soliciting insurance, selling sewing 
 machines, or kindred occupations. 
 
 EXPRESS BUSINESS. 
 
 What may be carried as such. 
 
 3. Rural carriers are permitted to carry, outside of the mails, for hire, for 
 and upon request of patrons of their routes, only unmailable aticles or packages 
 of merchandise, articles and packages of mailable matter weighing over 4 
 pounds, and mailable and unmailable articles when combined in one package 
 whether weighing in the aggregate more or less than 4 pounds, provided such 
 articles are received from one merchant or patron to be delivered to one mer- 
 chant or patron. 
 
 What may not be carried as such. 
 
 But intoxicating liquors (ardent, vinous, spirituous, or malt), explosives, 
 liquids, liable to explosion by shock or jar, or to spontaneous combustion, or 
 any article exhaling bad odor, shall not in any circumstances be carried by rural 
 carriers in their vehicles while on the service of their routes, or while they 
 have mail in their custody for delivery or dispatch. 
 
 MAILABLE MATTER MUST NOT BE CARRIED AS EXPRESS. 
 
 Exceptions. 
 
 4. With the exception of matter entitled to free transmission through the 
 mails under the franking privilege, and county newspapers, which by law may 
 be carried free to actual subscribers residing in the county of publication, 
 except when addressed for delivery at post offices having city delivery, and 
 with the exception noted in the preceding paragraph, no mailable matter 
 weighing 4 pounds or under shall be carried by rural carriers while on duty 
 unless postage thereon at regular rates has been paid. 
 
 ARTICLES SHALL BE RECEIVED BY CARRIERS IN PERSON. 
 
 Interference with official duties prohibited. 
 
 5. Express matter which patrons desire carriers to carry shall be delivered 
 to carriers in person, and they are not permitted to leave their official routes 
 while on duty to receive or deliver such merchandise, and shall not accept 
 anything that will delay the mail or in any way interfere with the service. 
 
 COMPENSATION TO BE PAID BY PATRON. 
 
 6. The fee for delivering express matter shall be paid by patron for whom 
 service is rendered, and carriers can not receive compensation from merchants 
 for delivering express matter to patrons. 
 
 1 See Infractions for the Guidance of Postmasters and Carriers in the Conduct of the 
 Rural Delivery Service, promulgated by authority of the Postmaster General, in effect 
 Mar. 4, 1907. 
 
 ' Apr. 28, 1904, ch. 1759, 33 Stat. L., 40. 
 
PARCEL. POST. 
 
 183 
 
 Mr. De Graw. The answer to your letter was somewhat delayed in 
 getting up this material. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you furnish data showing the extent of the 
 parcel-carrying traffic and the practice of delivering newspapers by 
 rural carriers before the law was passed limiting the same; is that 
 included in your letter of yesterday ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir ; I think that the various classes of mail are 
 detailed there; if not, I would be very glad to furnish that. I think 
 I can. 
 
 The Chairman. Please state briefly the history of the rural mail 
 service, giving such statistics as you can, especially with reference to 
 the cost of the service and the revenue derived therefrom. 
 
 Mr. De Graw. That will have to be prepared. 
 
 (Letter from the Postmaster General, dated Dec. 4, 1911, giving 
 the information asked follows:) 1 
 
 Office of the Postmaster General, 
 Washington, D. C, December If, 1911. 
 Hon. Jonathan Bourne, Jr., 
 
 Chairman Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads, 
 
 United States Senate. 
 
 My Deab Senator Bourne : With reference to your request made of the 
 Fourth Assistant Postmaster General during the recent hearing on the subject 
 of the parcel post for a statement outlining the history of the Rural Delivery 
 Service and giving statistics showing its cost and the revenue derived from the 
 service, I beg to state that rural delivery was first suggested by Postmaster Gen- 
 eral Wanamaker in his annual report for 1891. The first bill to authorize rural 
 delivery was introduced in Congress January 5, 1892, by Representative James 
 O'Donnell, of Michigan. The act approved March 3, 1893, appropriated $10,000, 
 and the act of July 16, 1894, appropriated $20,000 for experimental rural deliv- 
 ery service, but no expenditures were made from either appropriation. The act 
 approved June 9, 1896, appropriated $10,000 and reappropriated the unexpended 
 $30,000, making a total of $40,000 available for experimental rural delivery 
 during the fiscal year of 1897. The first service was established October 1, 
 1896, with one route each from Charlestown, Halltown, and Uvilla, W. Va. 
 
 Since the establishment of the service the maximum pay allowed rural car- 
 riers has been fixed as follows: Fiscal year 189T, $300; 1899, $400; 1901, $500; 
 1903. $600; 1905, $720; 1908, $900; and 1912. $1,000. 
 
 Rural carriers were placed in the classified service by Executive order of 
 February 1, 1902. 
 
 The following table shows the number of routes in operation and the appro- 
 priation and expenditure for each year to date: 
 
 Fiscal year. 
 
 Routes. 
 
 Appropria- 
 tion. 
 
 Expenditure. 
 
 Increase 
 in expend- 
 iture. 
 
 1897 
 
 82 
 
 153 
 
 412 
 
 1,259 
 
 3,761 
 
 8,298 
 
 15,119 
 
 24,566 
 
 32,055 
 
 35,766 
 
 37,728 
 
 39, 277 
 
 40,628 
 
 41,079 
 
 41,656 
 
 S40,000 
 
 50,250 
 
 150,032 
 
 450,000 
 
 1,750.796 
 
 4,089,075 
 
 8.580.364 
 
 12,926,905 
 
 21,116,600 
 
 25,828,300 
 
 28,200,000 
 
 34.900,000 
 
 35,673,000 
 
 37,260,000 
 
 38,860,000 
 
 S14,840 
 
 50,241 
 
 150,012 
 
 420,433 
 
 1,750,321 
 
 4,089,041 
 
 8,051,599 
 
 12,645,275 
 
 20,864,885 
 
 25,011,625 
 
 26,661,555 
 
 34,371,939 
 
 35,661,034 
 
 36,914,769 
 
 37,126,812 
 
 
 
 $35,401 
 
 
 99.771 
 
 
 270,421 
 
 
 1,329,888 
 
 
 2,338.720 
 
 
 3,962,558 
 
 
 4,593,676 
 
 
 8,219,610 
 
 
 4, 146, 740 
 
 
 1,649.930 
 
 
 7,710.384 
 
 
 1,289,095 
 
 
 1,253.735 
 
 
 212,043 
 
 
 
 1 See also pages 251 and 252 for additional information relative to the establishment of 
 rural delivery. 
 
184 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
 On December 1, 1911, there were 41,942 routes in operation. A special count 
 made in March, April, and May, 1909, showed that the average amount of 
 postage on mail collected on a rural route was $14.92 a month, and that the 
 average monthly cost of service on a route was $72.17. On this basis il was 
 estimated that the cost of service on a rural route exceeded the revenue derived 
 from the postage on the matter carried on the route by $687 a year, and that the 
 cost of all the rural routes in operation at the close of the fiscal year 1909 
 exceeded the revenue from matter mailed on such routes by nearly $28,000,000. 
 Since those estimates were made the maximum salary paid rural carriers has 
 been increased to $1,000 per annum, and the average cost of a route per month 
 is now $S0.31. 
 
 Reports were obtained by the department of the number of pieces and weight- 
 of. mail matter delivered and collected on rural routes during the month of 
 May, 1911, and from these reports the following estimates have been made of 
 the amount and weight of mail handled by the carriers during one year : 
 
 
 Pieces. 
 
 Percent- 
 age of 
 total 
 amount 
 handled. 
 
 Weight. 
 
 Percent- 
 age ol 
 total 
 
 weight. 
 
 
 Number. 
 412.612,953 
 2,348.100.560 
 
 14.95 
 85.05 
 
 Pounds. 
 11,517,236 
 299,797,327 
 
 3.7 
 
 
 96.3 
 
 
 
 Total 
 
 2,760,713,513 
 
 
 311,314,563 
 
 
 
 
 
 Very truly, yours, 
 
 Feank H. Hitchcock, 
 
 Postmaster General 
 
 The Chairman. At what percentage of its maximum efficiency do 
 you consider the rural service is working at this time? 
 
 Senator Bristow. That was practically answered, was it not, in the 
 reply to the former question? 
 
 The Chairman. I refer to whether it has reached the peak of its 
 efficiency or whether it can be greatly improved? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. My personal opinion is, Senator, that the rural 
 service to-day is very nearly self-sustaining. I reached that conclu- 
 sion by this fact: That during the last year we have made certain 
 examinations and investigations and tests of the service which show 
 that in a great number, if not a large majority of cases, 60 per cent 
 of the work done on the rural routes is in delivery; in other words,; 
 that 60 per cent of the receipts of the Government for rural service 
 is lodged in the office of emanation; Philadelphia, New York, and 
 other cities mailing out on rural routes, they get the money therefor, 
 and there is no way by which the department can keep a record of 
 that. 
 
 The Chairman. There is no segregation? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. No segregation. Therefore the only record which 
 we have shows that the Eural Delivery Service is costing the Govern- 
 ment about $28,000,000, in round numbers. We do not get any credit 
 for the matter we deliver, and of the work done on the rural routes 
 60 per cent is delivery. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, as I understand your statement, it costs 
 the Government $28,000,000 annually to operate the rural routes? 
 
PARCEL POST. Ig5 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. According to the record ; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. What amount does your present system of ac- 
 counts show that you get in the way of collection on the rural routes 
 of that $28,000,000 ? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. Well, that $28,000,000 is deducted from the 
 $43,000,000 appropriated, and that loss is derived by deducting the 
 amount received, which leaves a deficit of $28,000,000 by book record. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, under the present system of bookkeeping 
 and your inability to get any figures as to the receipts by the Gov- 
 ernment at large post offices, all the post offices outside of rural 
 routes show an apparent loss of $28,000,000— $43,000,000 appropria- 
 tions consumed in expenditures and the difference between the 
 $28,000,000 and the $43,000,000 received on the rural routes in the 
 way of receipts. 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. But in your opinion this $28,000,000 apparent loss 
 is not a general loss ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. But that the Government receives the full 
 $43,000,000? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. If the rural delivery could be credited with the 
 amount paid for the matter mailed at post offices off of rural routes. 
 
 (Letter dated Nov. 14, 1911, from the Postmaster General, giving 
 some information on this point, follows:) 
 
 Office of the Postmastee General, 
 Washington, D. C, November H, 1911. 
 Hon. Jonathan Boubne, Jr., 
 
 Chairman Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads, 
 
 United States Senate. 
 My Dear Senator : In further reply to your inquiries of the Fourth Assistant 
 Postmaster General upon the occasion of his hearing on the subject of general 
 parcel post on the 11th instant requiring the presentation of statistics, the 
 following statement is submitted, showing the number of parcels containing 
 merchandise delivered and collected by rural carriers on 39,794 rural routes 
 during the month of May, 1911 : 
 
 
 Number. 
 
 Weight. 
 
 
 2,452,147 
 264, 669 
 
 1,159,901 
 
 
 118,965 
 
 
 
 Average weight approximately 8 ounces. 
 
 You will find inclosed a copy of the Rural Delivery Salary Table, effective 
 July 1, 1911, the date upon which the maximum rate of pay of rural carriers 
 on standard routes was raised to $1,000. 
 
 Tours, very truly, Feank H. Hitchcock, 
 
 Postmaster General. 
 (Inclosure not reproduced.) 
 
 The Chairman. What suggestions, if any, beside the establish- 
 ment of a parcel post for rural routes, or a general parcel post, 
 could you make to increase the efficiency of the rural route service; 
 any? 
 
188 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. It is under present conditions. I think perhaps 
 under a parcel-post system that we would have to make some extraor- 
 dinary arrangements for that extraordinary business covering that 
 period. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, they do now make preparations for this 
 expected strain incident to the holiday period extending over the 
 four weeks? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. Yes, sir. The. men at the various post offices are 
 working 24 hours a day. They work night and day during that 
 period,, a great part of it, so that they are well worn out when the 
 period exhausts itself. 
 
 The Chairman. As I understand, the department makes prepara- 
 tion in the way of having additional men and additional service in 
 anticipation of this strain, does it not? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. Surely. They have to do so, and of course that 
 could be enlarged were it necessary. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, assuming that Congress enlarged the scope 
 of the present parcel post, a weight limit from 4 pounds to 11 
 pounds and postage from 16 cents a pound down to an average of, 
 say, 10 cents a pound, how great an increase in the fourth-class mat- 
 ter would you anticipate in a year's time? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. It would be very, very large, Senator, but I could 
 not estimate it. 
 
 The Chaieman. Would it be three, four, or ten times the present 
 volume, in your opinion? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. It would certainly be three times. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, would it be instantaneous on the day of the 
 adoption of the increased scope of the fourth-class matter? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. No ; I do not believe it would be instantaneous, be- 
 cause our people are very slow to ascertain advantages. They get 
 into certain ruts in transacting their business, and I believe, while 
 I have not been definitely informed on the subject, that that point 
 is exactly the reason why the Postmaster General desires to practi- 
 cally feel his way. I do not think that he is of the opinion that the 
 work of installing or starting a parcel-post system should be experi- 
 mental in the true sense of the word ; that is to say, I am only speak- 
 ing now of my own personal belief; I believe that in his judgment the 
 service might be started, but that in order that the department 
 should gradually proceed with the requirements of the service that 
 he should be vested with the authority to push it along as the re- 
 quirements appear to warrant. That is my understanding of his 
 position. 
 
 The Chaieman. Well, the committee expects to obtain the benefit 
 of the Postmaster General's views. We are anxious now to get the 
 benefit of yours. Then, to sum up, as I understand, in your judg- 
 ment with absolute safety a general parcel post, such as I have des- 
 ignated, with 11 pounds maximum weight and 10 cents per pound 
 average postage, could be adopted, and the rural service could handle 
 the same without any fear of congestion and with a direct pecuniary 
 benefit to that particular branch of the service. 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir ; but in that connection, Senator, I think 
 to make sure, only as a safeguard, that provision should be made, or, 
 in other words, authority vested in the department that in case of a 
 specific congestion at any one point which might occur — there might 
 
PARCEL, POST. 189 
 
 be a few points— as I stated ; that where the service now is crowded 
 with the legitimate business of to-day, there it would be necessary to 
 make some substitute or enlarged arrangements in order to carry the 
 additional matter. 
 
 The Chairman. But the congestion existing to-day is restricted, 
 if I correctly understood you, to 100 routes out of the 40,000 routes 
 now in existence, and the congestion anticipated or feared would 
 not be appreciable as compared with the whole service? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. No; not at all. 
 
 The Chairman. But you would desire to have authority from 
 Congress to meet that if it came by additional routes or additional 
 service on the 100 routes now loaded? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. That is it exactly, and I think it would be a very 
 important matter for Congress to direct what that additional power 
 should be. 
 
 The Chairman. It would be simply an increased appropriation in 
 anticipation of that, with authority to the department to use that 
 appropriation for that specific purpose if needed. 
 
 Mr. De Graw. If that were made specific, that would be all that 
 was necessary. 
 
 Senator Bristow. A great deal of the congestion could be taken 
 care of by the establishment of a new route, could it not ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes. sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You have authority to do that anyway? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Of course we have authority to do that as far as 
 the appropriation will permit. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, you have 40,000 routes; do you think that 
 adopting an enlarged parcel post on 100, 200, or 500 of these routes 
 would give you any information that would be of great value and 
 definite and enable you to better apply the whole system to your 
 whole 40,000 routes? In other words, in your opinion is it necessary 
 for any experimentation on a few of your routes with the experience 
 you have and the information you have given to this committee? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Not so far as rural delivery is concerned. 
 
 The Chairman. You have had no personal correspondence with 
 foreign countries in reference to the parcel-post question, have you? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have any of the heads of the bureaus or the Post- 
 master General, to your knowledge ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 The Chairman. Has any conference of the heads of the bureaus 
 been held relative to this subject with the Postmaster General ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Not of a general character. Incidental conferences. 
 
 The Chairman. No general conference? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. The four bureaus into which the Post Office De- 
 partment is divided have questions applying to more than one bureau 
 frequently come up, do they not ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. To get the best possible service for the Govern- 
 ment there has to be cooperation and frequent consultation between 
 the bureau heads, does there not ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes. We have that nearly every day of some 
 character. 
 
190 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any stated time, once a week, or once 
 a month, of meeting together and discussing questions coming up or 
 where they spread over more than one of the bureaus ? 
 
 Mr. De Geaw. No, sir. There is no specific time for discussions 
 or conferences of that character. My habit is if I have anything 
 that refers to one of the other bureaus, or in which one of the other 
 bureaus is involved, I take it up with the head of that bureau and 
 then I submit it to the Postmaster General and state that I have 
 conferred with the first, second, or third assistant, or the Attorney 
 General, and find this or that to be the case and inquire for his policy 
 on the subject. 
 
 The Chairman. In your experience in the Post Office Department, 
 have any of the Postmasters General had regular and established 
 periods of meeting with all the heads of the bureaus with himself 
 for consultation or exchange of ideas relative to the department's 
 operations ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. There have been fixed days from time to time, but 
 the business of the department is invariably interfered therewith, 
 and we would be called on short notice very often, as we have been 
 under the present administration. If Mr. Hitchcock has anything 
 particular which he thinks is involved in all of the bureaus, he asks 
 us to meet him at such a time, to-day or to-morrow, but, as I say,, 
 those occasions are invariably interfered with in some way or other. 
 There have been, of course, from time to time, conferences by each of 
 the Postmasters General, but they, of course, have not been able to 
 carry them on as regularly as the Cabinet meetings, for instance. 
 
 The Chairman. It is not practicable or feasible because of the 
 absence of one of the heads of the bureaus ? 
 
 Mr. De Graw. Yes; for hearings in their particular lines, going 
 on at that particular time. 
 
 The Chairman. I think that is all, unless there are some matters 
 that you have that we have not covered. 
 
 Mr. De Graw. I think you have covered the ground, Senator. I- 
 think you have everything that I have in mind. I do not believe it 
 would be worth while for me to burden the record with anything 
 further. When I get these statements prepared that have been 
 referred to, I think you will have everything I can think of. 
 
 The Chairman. General, we are very much obliged to you. 
 
 (Whereupon, at 12.15 o'clock p. m., the hearing adjourned.) 
 
MONDAY, NOVEMBER 13, 1911. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), and Senator 
 Joseph L. Bristow. 
 
 The Chairman. In order to economize time, I will ask you, Mr. 
 Hitchcock, to first reply to the questions I am about to ask and after- 
 wards we will be glad to listen to any general statement you may 
 desire to make. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF HON. FRANK H. HITCHCOCK, POSTMASTER 
 
 GENERAL. 
 
 (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Kindly state your age and present position in the 
 Post Office Department. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Postmaster General ; 44 years of age. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you occupied that position? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Since March 4, 1909. 
 
 The Chairman. Kindly state as well as you can from memory 
 the total length of your service in the Post Office Department and 
 designate the positions you have held and the length of time you 
 have served in each. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I became First Assistant Postmaster General in 
 March, 1905, receiving the appointment from President Eoosevelt. 
 and continued in the service until February, 1908, when I resigned. 
 and was out of the service until March 4, 1909. 
 
 The Chairman. When you became Postmaster General? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. When I became Postmaster General. I can no< 
 remember the exact dates, but that is near enough, I imagine. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you approve of the establishment of a rural 
 .parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I do, most earnestly. 
 
 The Chairman. At what weight limit? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. The international weight limit — 11 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. What rate would you consider advisable and 
 proper for such parcel post, confined to the rural delivery ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I am in favor of starting at the international 
 rate — 12 cents. 
 
 Senator Bristow. On rural routes? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. On rural routes. 
 
 The Chairman. That would be at three-quarters of a cent ar 
 ounce, or 12 cents a pound ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Twelve cents a pound. 
 
 The Chairman. Making the pound rate your minimum? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Making the pound rate the minimum. I am nol 
 
 in favor of the ounce rate for merchandise. I believe in the pounc 
 
 late. I think the present rate of 1 cent an ounce for fourth-class 
 
 matter is an unfortunate one ; I think it would be much better tc 
 
 have a pound rate for merchandise. 
 
 r 191 
 
192 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. So that any package would be 12 cents? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Any package would be 12 cents — a pound or un- 
 der. The present rate of 1 cent an ounce for fourth-class matter 
 results in a very great deal of embarrassment to the service. 
 
 Senator Bristow. In what way? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Oh, the constant weighing of small packages of 
 all kinds that go in that class of mail. I would prefer to have a 
 lower pound rate than to have the rate so much an ounce. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you make any difference in rates on less 
 than 11 pounds and over 1 pound? That is, would it be consid- 
 ered 12 cents per pound, or a fraction of a pound, up to 11 pounds? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. You are speaking now of the rural service ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. The parcel post on the rural route? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. My judgment is that at the outset it would be 
 better to start with the 12 cents a pound rate, just as it is applied in 
 the international post, and not attempt to scale down at the beginning 
 of the service. That would probably come later. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why do you suggest the international rate for 
 simply the rural delivery? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, my judgment is that it is better, so far as 
 we can, to harmonize the rates with the idea of finally adopting a 
 more general rate for a general service. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I can see how that might be desirable for a 
 general parcel post. Would you have the same rates for strictly rural 
 parcel post that you would for a general parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I would, under the plan that is proposed; that is, 
 1 would start with a 12-cent rate, but I think it would be very inad- 
 visable to adopt any rate that would be subject to increase later. It is 
 a very difficult thing to increase a postal rate, as you know, so I 
 would start with a reasonable maximum rate, and hope in the course 
 of the development of the system to reduce it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Don't you think that it is entirely feasible to 
 have a special rate for rural delivery out of the office at which the 
 route originates, to be delivered on the route and not to another, into 
 the Kail way Mail Service at all? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It would be quite feasible, but I am not sure it 
 would be advisable, with the plans that we have in view. It would be 
 entirely feasible, of course, if the service were to be restricted finally 
 to the rural routes, but if the service on the rural routes is to be 
 made a part of a general service, so that the parcel may start in a 
 city and go to another city and then out over a rural route to its 
 destination, it might be better to have a general rate. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you think if a parcel-post system is estab- 
 lished that the same rate should prevail for a general and a rural 
 service ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. If the rural service is made a part of the general 
 system, of course the rate would be the same. I am assuming that 
 when the general system is started the rural service will simply be a 
 part of it, just as at present it is a part of the general mail service. 
 The postage rates carry your mail over the general system of which 
 the delivery routes form a part. 
 
PAECEL POST. 193 
 
 Senator Beistow. You think, then, in establishing a parcel post, 
 that we ought to have the same rate for a package from New York 
 to San Francisco that you would from Salina, Kans., out on the 
 rural routes somewhere? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. That depends, of course, upon the principle you 
 adopt in establishing your system. If the Government is going to 
 monopolize the business, I think it would be quite feasible to have a 
 flat rate applicable to the whole country, just as in the case of ordi- 
 nary mail. I am not certain that it would be advisable, but I am 
 certain it would be feasible ; that is, it would be workable. 
 
 The Chairman. Just a moment in that connection. Have you 
 made up your own mind as to the Government establishing, if it is 
 able, a monopoly of the mail matter and packet matter, parcel 
 matter, or to allow competition through private interests to exist, as 
 it does to-day, in everything except first-class mail ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I am disposed to favor the monopoly plan; I 
 believe it would be better for the Government to take over the entire 
 business 
 
 The Chairman. You have made up your mind on that ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. And conduct it just as we now handle the first- 
 class mail; of course that would eliminate very many difficulties 
 § rowing out of the distance or zone system where you would be 
 rought into constant competition with the private organizations 
 that do an express business. 
 
 Tlie Chairman. Would you make that monopoly a legal monop- 
 oly? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Absolutely. That is the only way in which we 
 could have a monopoly. 
 
 The Chairman. Why would you want to absorb that monopoly? 
 That is, so far as the merchandise goes ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. To avoid the very great difficulties that will con- 
 stantly arise if we are obliged to meet that kind of competition. 
 
 The Chairman. What difficulties would arise? What difficulties 
 do you anticipate ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. The rates that would be prescribed for the gov- 
 ernmental parcel post would be fixed rates, fixed by law, whereas 
 the private organizations doing an express business would be able 
 constantly to modify their rates as they do to-day. 
 ' The Chairman. Well ; do you think they would carry at a loss ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. The result would be that no matter what zones 
 we might establish, they would be able to fix rates that would give 
 them the short hauls within any zone and throw the long hauls on 
 the Government. That is the thing we have to provide against. 
 
 The Chairman. But, General, your answer to that question is 
 capable of this construction: That inferentially you believe the 
 
 Erivate enterprises can operate a mail system cheaper than the 
 rovernment can ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Not if they are forced to do all the business, as 
 we would be. 
 
 The Chairman. But you said no matter what zone system was 
 established, that the short haul would go to the' express companies, 
 or the private enterprises. Now, that statement, unexplained, would 
 lead the inference, to my mind at least, that you believe the private 
 
 21845— vol 1—12 13 
 
194 PARCEL POST. 
 
 enterprises could operate branches of the postal department cheaper 
 than the Government could. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Not at all. No ; I do not believe that, and did not 
 intend to give that impression in my answer. If we established a 
 zone system, as it is called, we would have a fixed rate for every zone. 
 
 The Chairman. Sure. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. And naturally we would endeavor to make the 
 system as simple as possible in order to render the administration of 
 tfie system easy, and it seems to me that after we had established our 
 zone and fixed our rates it would be a very small matter for the 
 private organization, or express companj 7 , if you please, to fix its 
 rates in such a manner as to carry at a profit over the short hauls in 
 any zone and abandon the long haul business for that zone, whereas 
 we would have to handle the entire business under our system. 
 
 The Chairman. But as I understand a zone system, it is a series 
 ef a number of miles designated, with differences in prices as to the 
 different zones. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, if you believe that the Government can oper- 
 ate cheaper than the express companies, then, your prices being regu- 
 lated in accordance with the cost of operation, would either necessi- 
 tate the express companies getting out of that class of the busi- 
 ness in competition or else carrying at a loss, which they certainly 
 would not do, for they are not operated under philanthropic motives, 
 are they? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I do not think you get my point, or perhaps:! 
 did not make it clear. The point I wanted to bring out is this: It 
 is the same condition that prevails to-day in our handling of second- 
 elass mail matter. We get the long hauls. 
 
 The. Chairman. But we haven't any zone system. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, I am treating the whole country as a zone. 
 
 The Chairman. If you take one zone you might as well say 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I am trying to illustrate by the condition that 
 exists in the country at large, assuming that to be a zone; every 
 smaller zone would be comparable in principle to the whole country. 
 
 The Chairman. I could not follow you on that. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. So far as the question of short and long haul is 
 concerned, the express companies to-day take the short hauls and we 
 take the long hauls, because we have a flat rate. 
 
 The Chairman. Of course I appreciate that. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Now, it would follow in the same way that for 
 every zone under a zone system the express company could fix a 
 lower rate for the short hauls within that zone, whereas as we use a 
 fixed rate for the whole zone, we would naturally get the long hauls. 
 Do you get the point, Senator Bristow ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Senator Bourne, Gen. Hitchcock has in view 
 fixing a distance zone on a mileage basis, while you have in mind the 
 fixing of zones in certain sections of the country. 
 
 The Chairman. On a mile radius; yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. On a mile radius from every office. Now, to 
 illustrate, here we will say is the city of Washington, and the rate 
 would be, we will say, 3 cents a pound or 4 cents a pound for a i 
 distance of 50 miles from the Washington office, or from any other 
 office in the country. . 
 
PARCEL POST. 195 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. 
 
 Senator Beistow. For 50 miles; for 100 miles it would be a little 
 more, and for 500 miles it would be still more. Now, the first zone is 
 within a radius of 50 miles, we will say; it might be 25, but I am 
 using 50. Now ; from any office in the United States you would know 
 a package was so much a pound for any post office within 50 miles 
 of that office. Mr. Hitchcock is speaking of that kind of a system. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. A distance system. 
 
 Senator Bristow. With that kind of a system, how would the ex- 
 press companies have any advantage over a mail service ? 
 
 The Chairman. Provided the Government can operate cheaper or 
 as cheaply as any private enterprise. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. If the rates were established with that very great 
 nicety that you suggest, it would, of course, render the system ex- 
 tremely complicated and also the accounting extremely complicated. 
 However, the express company would have very little advantage. 
 
 The Chairman. "Would it have any advantage? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It would have a slight advantage always growing 
 out of the fact that it could modify its rates at will. 
 
 The Chairman. Where you would be bound by the law? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes ; we would be bound by the law. 
 
 The Chairman. But they never would carry at a loss for any 
 length of time, would they ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Oh, no; but we could never carry out a system so 
 intricate as that, in my judgment, except at a very high rate of cost. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, now what difficulties do you see in regard 
 to this ? Your post-route maps show the distances between post offices, 
 do they not? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Oh, surely. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Noav, the postmaster can look at the map, which 
 is before him, and readily see what the rate is to any post office, ac- 
 cording to that map, and he sells the stamps. He does not receive 
 the money, he sells the stamps, and his account with the Government 
 . is a stamp account, just the same as it is now, so many ones, so many 
 twos, etc. Now, the question is between the postmaster and the 
 customer as to whether it is more than 50 miles, and, there are his 
 maps before him, and I do not see how there is any intricate account- 
 ing in it. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. There is a necessity in every instance, of course, of 
 determining the particular route and distance. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, that is according to law. 
 
 The Chairman. It is demonstrated on the topographical map. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It would be necessary to refer, in practically every 
 instance, I should think, to the map or the scale of distances. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, the postmaster soon knows the distances 
 within his radius, because, I infer, over 500 miles 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. That will take in the whole country, you under- 
 stand, that system of yours. 
 
 The Chairman. It is not a system of ours; it is simply tentative 
 to get information ; that is all. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, the one discussed by the Senator. I did not 
 mean that you were advocating it, but that you had suggested it in 
 Hint way for consideration. 
 
196 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. This would be a general parcel post, of course. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It would mean determining the distance to any 
 point in the United States. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, it would be if the system were adopted. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. We should have 60,000 post offices within the 
 range of that system. 
 
 The Chairman. All that would be necessary on the topographical 
 maps would be to take each post office and have your radius of 50 
 miles, to use the figure that Senator Bristow suggested, then 100. 
 then 500, or whatever your zones might be that were established; 
 the postmaster would see at once or the stamp clerk or the registry 
 clerk or the parcels clerk would see at once what distance, by looking 
 at the map, what charge you had to make, having a cumulative 
 charge depending upon the mile distance, don't you see, for the zone, 
 making entirely distance zone? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I understand; that is quite clear, but when you 
 consider the extent of the country and the vast number of offices 
 
 The Chairman. I can not see that that would complicate it in 
 any way, General. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That would depend, of course 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. You will find it very complicated. You would 
 have to locate every office. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, all that would be required, to my mind, and 
 all that I am asking for, is information in order to get your ideas, 
 an interchange of ideas. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Surely. 
 
 The Chairman. As I say, all that would be required would be 
 60,000 topographical maps with the distance circles or radii marked 
 on them. I do not see where it would complicate the receipts or the 
 bookkeeping or anything of that kind in the department. It is per- 
 fectly evident that town A is within 49 miles of town B, coming 
 within the 50-mile circle around town A, so that the sender from 
 town A knows that he has got the minimum rate to pay to town B, 
 and he puts such a stamp on it. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. But in every instance he must locate that town 
 somewhere in the country and put it in its proper place. You 
 would have to have a key to assist. 
 
 Senator Bristow. He would have to have his map. Now, we will 
 say this is 50 miles and there is a radius of 50 miles in which he 
 knows what offices are located. Now, we will say 100 miles is the 
 next radius and 200 miles the next ; then we will say 500 miles is the 
 next and then 1,500 miles. Now, the only key that he will need is 
 the post offices that are within a radius of 50, 100, 200, and 1,500 
 miles, and then the remainder of the country, probably half a dozen 
 zones on mileage from each office, and of course the route map shows 
 the distance from his office, of the small charges. Now, with regard 
 to the large charges, there would probably be 10,000 offices all the : 
 same, possibly 20,000 offices all the same. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, if you adopt a system like the one you are 
 describing, it would give the express companies considerable op- 
 portunity to cut rates on the short hauls. 
 
 The Chairman. A cut for an appreciable amount of business will 
 never be below the cost of operation to them, will it, General? 
 
PARCEL POST. 197 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. They would allow the postal service to take all 
 the longer hauls from each office, I should think. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, assume that your first zone system 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. You will make, a fixed rate for every one of those 
 zones. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Make as many zones as you think it advisable 
 to make. 
 
 The Chairman. The more zones, of course the more complicated, 
 the more difficult of administration. On the other hand, the fewer 
 the zones the greater opportunity for the express companies or what- 
 ever other competition you may have? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Surely. And those are some of the difficulties 
 that appeal to me as standing in the way of that system. 
 
 The Chairman. I can not follow your reasoning as to the in- 
 creased difficulty to the department by the establishment of a ten- 
 tative system like Senator Bristow has suggested, assuming that you 
 can secure full information as to the zone distance for each route by 
 your topographical maps in every post office, so that the individual 
 served by the Government can see for himself, and the postmaster 
 himself, having his map, can see whether the stamps put on are 
 correct, except so far that it might require additional espionage on 
 the part of the Post Office Department, the postmaster, or his em- 
 ployee. That far I can see it, that the more zones you have the more 
 time you would have to consume by that individual in seeing that 
 the customer or the citizen served was correct in the stamp affixed, but 
 only that far. ' 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. But think of the time required to determine the 
 rate in every single instance. In many of the cases referred to they 
 would have to use the key or a map to determine what the rate should 
 be. That would add materially to the expense of conducting the 
 business and, I think, would necessitate a higher rate than the one 
 you could afford to make under the other system. 
 
 Senator Bristow. General, the express companies do that now. 
 They charge a mileage rate, and it is not a systematic mileage rate, 
 but a rate to each individual station, is it not, and the railroads do 
 that? Now, would it be any more difficult for the postmaster to-do 
 that than the express company or railroad agent? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I should say so, because the express company is 
 organized for this special business, and their employees are engaged 
 in that alone, whereas in the postal service the handling of parcels 
 would be just an incident to a very complicated set of duties that 
 every postmaster and his assistants must perform. 
 
 The Chairman. He is very familiar, though, with his general 
 duties to-day, presumably. This would be just simply an enlarge- 
 ment of that branch of the service, amounting now in percentage, I 
 think I am right, of less than 2 per cent of your fourth-class matter 
 now of the total number of packages handled. Isn't that true ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Something about that. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Four per cent in weight? 
 
 The Chairman. In number. 
 
 Senator Bristow. No ; less than that. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I do not remember about that. 
 
198 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, as I understand, you would confine the 
 benefit of this parcel post to the patrons of the Rural Delivery 
 Service ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Do you mean the general parcel system ? 
 
 The Chairman. No. I mean you have made up your mind that 
 what is feasible and desirable, as I understand, is only an enlarge- 
 ment of the present parcel-post system to 11 pounds maximum weight 
 and a 12-cent per pound cost to Rural Delivery Service only. Is 
 that it? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I favor malting a beginning on the rural routes, 
 but that beginning should be followed as rapidly as possible with an 
 extension of the parcel-post system to other branches of the postal 
 system. My plan was to start with the rural routes, follow that 
 almost immediately with delivery in the carrier service in cities and 
 towns, and after those two branches of the service were thoroughly 
 organized, to take over the railway-express business, thus making a 
 general system. 
 
 The Chairman. How long a time would you think would be 
 required by the Government to thoroughly organize those two 
 branches of the service ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Not over a year. 
 
 The Chairman. At the expiration of which time, in your opinion, 
 the Government would be justified in taking over the express busi- 
 ness, up to the weight limit of 11 pounds? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Eleven pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. And the classification determined? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes; assuming, of course, that we have the neces- 
 sary facilities for beginning on the rural routes, and in the carrier, 
 service in cities and towns. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any doubt as to the Government now : 
 possessing the necessary facilities in the rural-route service to handle! 
 the probable increase of business due to the raising of a weight limit 
 and the decreasing of price of postage on that service ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, my judgment is that the service, as at 
 present organized and equipped, could handle any parcel-post busi- 
 ness that would come to it in the first year, but I assume that with. 
 the growth of that service we should have to increase our equipment 
 and probably our number of employees. 
 
 The Chairman. On the rural routes? We are talking specifically 
 about that. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. This is just a matter of judgment. I think that 
 we could probably handle the business for a year. I think it would 
 take only about a year to organize a parcel-post on the rural routes 
 if we pushed it rapidly. After a year I assume that we would: re-, 
 quire additional equipment and more employees, but it might be 
 necessary to have additional equipment and more employees earlier 
 than that. You can not tell until you see what condition develops. 
 
 The Chairman. How many rural routes have you now? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. About 40,000. 
 
 The Chairman. Are they running, in your opinion, at the full 
 peak or top of their load? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Oh, no. You mean by that, are the carriers 
 handling all the mail they can handle? 
 
PARCEL POST. 199 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; with their present equipment and under 
 your present organization? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Oh, no; it is generally understood they could 
 carry considerably more mail. 
 
 The Chairman. Have' you data upon which vou can base a reliable 
 opinion as to how much that could be increas'ed in the way of per- 
 centage under the present organization and their present equipment? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. You mean percentage of weight? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, some figures have been made that ought U 
 throw light on that question. I have not the exact figures in mind 
 I am not certain that an estimate has been recently made, but I 
 believe we could furnish an estimate. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I have heard it estimated that under the 
 present organization and equipment the rural routes were carrying 
 about 25 per cent of the load that they could carry easily, without 
 any increase of force or change of equipment, with the exception of 
 possibly 100 routes out of the 40,000, which are now operating at the 
 top of their load. Have you formed any opinion as to what the in- 
 crease of the volume of business would be if your recommendation 
 were adopted to increase the weight to 11 pounds and decrease the 
 postage to 12 cents on rural routes? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. My judgment is that it is too low — that 25 per 
 cent. 
 
 The Chairman. Oh, it is ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. That is my judgment. I think to-day that it 
 would be nearer 50 per cent. That might have been true several 
 years ago. I believe that is the figure quoted in one of the reports of 
 the Fourth Assistant Postmaster General, but my judgment is that 
 during the last two or three years the percentage has increased ma- 
 terially, because more care has been exercised in the establishment of 
 routes than was the case some years ago, when they were put in very 
 rapidly. Eecently the question of the volume of the mail to be han- 
 dled has been given more consideration. 
 
 The Chairman. In your opinion, the statement of the Fourth 
 Assistant Postmaster General would be the best possible obtainable 
 statement as to that volume of business, wouldn't it? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. The service comes directly under his charge, and 
 ordinarily that would be true, of course, but that percentage is not a 
 recent estimate. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Have you in the department now, or have you 
 compiled, the weight that each carrier has? Are there any statistics 
 gathered as to the weight of mail that the rural carriers on their 
 respective routes carry? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. We have gathered some statistics showing the 
 weight of the several classes of mail during a short period. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Years ago they used to keep a record of the 
 weight and the number of pieces handled. That has all been figured. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. We have a record now that was made a few 
 months ago, for a short period, in order to get information for the 
 Commission on Second-Class Mail Matter. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Did that include all kinds of mail? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. 
 
200 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. On the rural routes? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It included the several classes # of mail. I think 
 that from those statistics we can obtain more definite information on 
 this point. I will have that looked into when I go back to the de- 
 partment. 
 
 The Chairman. "Will you have a statement sent up ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes;' I will be glad to do that. 1 
 
 Senator Bristow. Giving in pounds, as near as you can, what the 
 routes average; that is, how many routes average so many pounds, 
 and grade them on up. That will be very good, if you can get that 
 information. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I will try to have a statement made that will be 
 helpful on this point. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Would you recommend the inauguration of this 
 parcel post on all rural routes at once? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. No, sir; I would not favor that. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you consider it practicable to inaugurate 
 an enlarged system of the parcel post on rural routes in one State 
 at a time, or one county afr a time, or how would you consider the 
 matter ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I would favor selecting a number of routes in 
 each State, following the general scheme that we adopted for the 
 introduction of the postal savings system, in order to make the ex- 
 periment as wide as possible. 
 
 The Chairman. But why are the two cases analogous? In the 
 postal savings system you started an entirely new governmental de- 
 parture. In the carrying out of your plan as suggested you are 
 utilizing an organization already in existence, operating a parcel 
 post with a 4-pound limit and the 1 cent per ounce charge. Now, 
 you are simply proposing to increase the weight limit and decrease 
 the rate. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. That is the rate for fourth-class matter. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, but that includes parcel-post packages and 
 parcels. You are simply enlarging the weight limit from 4 pounds 
 to 11 pounds and you are decreasing the price from a rate of 16 cents 
 per pound, or 1 cent per ounce. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. One cent an ounce. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I know that is the rate, but for the sake of 
 furnishing the relativeness, changing that to 12 cents per pound, 
 and increasing your minimum from an ounce to a pound. Now, I 
 can not see why anything like an experimental establishment might 
 be necessary in the postal department, when it was necessary in the 
 postal savings bank. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, I do not mean experimental in the sense 
 that you have in mind. That is, it is not experimental in the sense 
 that we are going to see if it is wise to introduce this system, but 
 experimental in the sense 
 
 The Chairman. As to rapidity? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. In the sense that being about to introduce the 
 system we take the step deliberately at first in order to make no 
 mistake in the method. I would favor starting the parcel post on 
 rural routes in a deliberate way at the outset. I would take a few 
 
 1 Not yet received. 
 
PAKCEL POST. 201 
 
 routes and have them carefully supervised — few enough routes for 
 us to concentrate our attention upon. I would have our inspectors 
 follow the first introduction of this system, as they did the first intro- 
 duction of the postal savings, so that we would have full reports of 
 the result of the experiment. Then, as soon as we are certain that 
 we have the right plan, proceed to extend the system rapidly. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you have the necessity of having your in- 
 spectors follow, provided you adopted different stamps from your 
 ordinary postage stamps for your packets or parcel post? You 
 would then have the information furnished all the time as to the 
 increase in that line of business by the increased sale of those par- 
 ticular stamps. You do not expect any difference in your organiza- 
 tion, and all that you could possibly anticipate, I take it, is that you 
 might have to increase the equipment and increase the number of 
 employees. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Oh, in time that would show, of course, in a gen- 
 eral way what the volume of the business was. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, an inspector can not stay at an office all the 
 time. You have 40,000 rural routes and you can not have 40,000 in- 
 spectors out there to tell what each rural route does. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. There is no thought of that, but the idea is to 
 have them all carefully supervised during the initial stages. 
 
 The Chairman. But I do not see the nature of the supervision re- 
 quired. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, of course, there are a good many things to 
 be taken into consideration in the development of that system. We 
 do not know how extensively it is going to be patronized, what the 
 nature of the patronage will be, what the nature of the parcels will 
 be, just how they will be delivered, how it is going to affect the 
 ordinary duties of rural carriers, and so on. Now, those things ought 
 to be carefully watched. 
 
 The Chairman. The nature of the parcels will be determined by 
 your rules and regulations, as they are to-day under your classifica- 
 tion. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Of course, the regulations will place certain re- 
 strictions on the character of the merchandise that can be conveyed, 
 as they do for all classes of mail, but the regulations will not show us 
 what actually happens with respect to various classes of matter pre- 
 sented for transportation. What we want to see and see promptly 
 is the actual character of that business, so as to provide for the future 
 extension of the system in a proper way. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the character of your business would be 
 fixed by law, or by rule and regulation in the department. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Oh, yes ; that is very true. 
 
 The Chairman. So you know that in the beginning. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. That is very true, but that does not give us the ex- 
 act information we need. We want to know what the business actu- 
 ally is after the system is in operation. 
 
 The Chairman. The establishment of the opportunity is a pre- 
 requisite of the ascertainment of the knowledge you want. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. We must have the opportunity to start this sys- 
 tem. That we have to get from Congress, of course, and we are very 
 anxious to get it. We have appealed for it repeatedly without receiv- 
 
202 PARCEL POST. 
 
 ing any authority. When we are once granted the authority I think 
 we shall be able to organize the system. 
 
 The Chairman. But you desire authority to operate in accordance 
 with your own ideas and under direction from Congress in reference 
 to the detail of the enlargement of the service. Is that it ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, my judgment is that it would be far better 
 for Congress to determine in a general way what it wants of the 
 department, and then give the department authority to work out the 
 problem itself. The department is an organization of trained men, 
 postal experts, who are giving their lives to this work; it has been 
 shown in the past that they are conscientious in their work; it has 
 been shown under this administration, and you can feel pretty certain 
 that if they are granted the necessary authority to organize the 
 parcel-post on rural routes and in the city carrier service, and so on, 
 that they will go at it carefully and conscientiously and will get the 
 results that you want. I do not believe in hampering the department 
 too much by congressional restrictions. I think it ought to have some 
 latitude. If you were running a great business establishment you 
 would select one of your managers in whom you had confidence and 
 tell him to work out what you wanted accomplished. You would 
 put the responsibility on him and give him reasonable latitude. 
 Now I think, with respect to this project, that Congress ought to treat 
 the department in that manner. I think it would be better business. 
 
 The Chairman. If I were running a big business organization and 
 was one of the trustees for the stockholders that had the raising and 
 paying out of money, I should get all possible information from the 
 specialists in that organization before I should decide in reference to 
 the adoption of any improvements or enlargement of scope of that 
 business. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, of course that is the very thing I am saying. 
 But you would not yourself attempt to work out" the details that 
 should be worked out by your manager. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It would be impossible. 
 
 The Chairman. I should work over the details and the plans pre- 
 sented by my managers or superintendents or consulting engineers, 
 or whoever they might be, and determine in reference to what action 
 should be taken. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes ; but you would not attempt to work that out 
 yourself. You would have experiments made and actual tests and 
 follow along with your managers and your assistants. 
 
 The Chairman. No ; I would not follow. I would cooperate with 
 them, and I would go ahead of them if I thought I could get infor- 
 mation they did not have. I should try to get all possible informa- 
 tion on that subject to make a determination ; that would be my duty 
 as a director or member of the executive committee, or as chairman 
 of the committee, or as president, if I happened to be, and I think you 
 concur on that. You would do the same, I think. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, I would cooperate. 
 
 Senator Bristow. General, have you any information, in the de- 
 partment, as to the number of pieces of fourth-class mail and the size 
 of the pieces — that is, how many ounces, 2 ounces, 3 ounces, and the 
 different weights— have you got that information? 
 
PARCEL POST. 203 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. No ; not definitely. We gave all the information 
 we had in the letter that I wrote the chairman October 5. 
 , The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, your recommendation is that the rate on 
 rural routes be reduced from 1 cent an ounce to 12 cents a pound? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I favor starting with the 12-cent-a-pound rate 
 and with the 11-pound weight limit. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes ; so I understood. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. But not as a fixed matter, Senator. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, it would be fixed for the time being, 
 wouldn't it? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Fixed for the time being, certainly. But I mean 
 not as a permanent rate or a permanent weight limit necessarily. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, but that is what you are recommending 
 now. You are not recommending any other different rates at present. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I suggest that a,s the best plan at the outset. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That would increase the postage on a great 
 majority of the pieces of mail sent out on rural routes, wouldn't it? 
 The majority of them are less than a pound ? 
 
 The Chairman. Under a 4-pound limit. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, under the 4-pound law. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that is the 4-pound limit. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes; it would increase the postage on a large 
 quantity of fourth-class mail matter ; that is inevitable. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Don't you think that that would have a tendency 
 to decrease the number of pieces which the rural carriers would have 
 to handle ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, it would so far as those parcels are con- 
 cerned, but I don't think you would have any decrease in the total 
 amount if you extended the limit to 11 pounds. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is in the total weight? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Extend the limit to 11 pounds for the total weight. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, the postage on an 11-pound package would 
 be $1.32. There would not be many 11-pound packages, would there, 
 sent out on the rural routes at that rate ? There is very little merchan- 
 dise that would stand such a rate as that, to be transported on the 
 rural routes? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I think the volume of fourth-class matter would 
 be much larger than previously. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you think the weight would ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. The volume and the weight. There would be 
 more fourth-class matter handled than previously under the proposed 
 rate, in my judgment. 
 
 Senator Bristow. At present the merchant can send a 2-ounce 
 package for 2 cents, 4-ounce for 4 cents, 8-ounce for 8 cents, 10-ounce 
 for 10 cents, but under the plan which you recommend all of these 
 packages would bear the 12-cent postage. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. They would all bear the 12-cent postage, if they 
 were sent in that way. Naturally, the small packages weighing under 
 6 ounces would be sent by letter postage, I should think. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That would be under 6 ounce? ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. That would be 2 cents an ounce ; they would send 
 it first class. 
 
204 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That would be increasing all the small packages 
 weighing less than 6 ounces four times the postage on rural routes! 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It would increase the postage on those parcels and 
 the postage ought to be increased. 
 
 Senator Bristow. On the rural routes ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. On the rural routes, and everywhere, in my 
 judgment. 
 
 Senator Bristow. On those? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. On those small parcels. They are more difficult 
 to handle than letters, by far. , 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you think by increasing that four times that 
 it would result in an increase in the number of those packages sent 
 on the rural routes ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, my answer to your question was that, in my 
 judgment, the volume would be considerably increased under the 
 proposed plan, and I think also that the number of parcels would 
 be considerably increased. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, I was trying to get at the details as to how 
 this increase would be brought about. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. But there might be a decrease in the number 
 of very small parcels sent in that way, because of the higher rate 
 of postage they would require under the plan. 
 
 Senator Bristow. There probably would be some increase in the 
 amount of postage received for the transmission of these small 
 packages, but there would be a fewer number. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Fewer probably of the small packages, I should 
 think. But I do not think the statement you made respecting the 
 average weight was in accordance with the facts, Senator. I under- 
 stand you to say there were more of these smaller packages sent 
 as fourth-class matter weighing less than a pound under the present 
 rate, which gives us a 4-pound limit. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Than the larger ones. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I think the average is above a pound. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You think it is ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes; I am quite sure I am right about the aver- 
 age weight of the parcels sent as fourth-class mail. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Have you got the statistics in the department 
 on that? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I think there are some statistics that will bear out 
 what I say, and I will endeavor to get them. If I am wrong I will 
 make the correction, but I think the average is about a pound. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the average under the 11-pound weight? 
 Do you know that, General ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. No; I do not recall just what it is. 
 
 The Chairman. A little over 3 pounds? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. My impression is that it is around 3 or 4 pounds, 
 something like that. 
 
 The Chairman. About 3£ pounds ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, to follow out these details, there would 
 be an increase in all packages sent up to 6 ounces. A package 
 weighing 6 ounces would go under the same rate as if sent as letter 
 postage ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. 
 
PABCEL POST. 205 
 
 The Chairmax. Now, then, there would be above 6 ounces a re- 
 duction on the 7-ounce packages of 2 cents, and all above that, 4 
 cents. That is where the rate is not reduced ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It would be 2 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. That would be first-class mail. But the cheapest 
 rate on the package above the first-class mail would be the 7-ounce 
 package, wouldn't it ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes ; above the point 
 
 The Chairman. Twelve cents ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Twelve cents ; that is right. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It would be 2 cents for each ounce. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It would be 12 cents ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Twelve cents; that would carry 6 ounces. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It would be 12 cents from 6 ounces to a pound? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Everything under 6 ounces would go first class, 
 and everything above 6 ounces would go fourth class? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. As soon as it reached 6 ounces it would immedi- 
 ately take the fourth-class rate, or the parcel-post rate. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a reduction of 4 cents. Now, do you 
 anticipate that the reduction of 4 cents a pound on a pound basis 
 would, on the rural routes alone, cause any radical increase in the 
 amount of business sent ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Four cents on a pound ; of course it would be 16 
 cents on the 4 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Still, the rural routes do not carry any of these 
 large packages or many of them which originate in the town where the 
 rural route starts. These large packages come from over long dis- 
 tances, where it is cheaper to send by mail than by express, so that 
 comes through the Railway Mail Service and the city post offices. 
 But what packages would be greatly increased in number by a small 
 reduction of from 16 to 12 cents a pound ? What kind of business ? 
 Do you have any idea there would be a great influx of business, so 
 as to embarrass your carriers ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, that is the very information we wish to 
 obtain. I am favorable to a conservative beginning. 
 
 The Chairman. Of course you tan apply reason to any problem. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. After we know what business is going to come in 
 we can determine more readily what rate to make. I spoke of 12 
 cents as a maximum rate. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you suggested that? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Having in mind, of course, a probable reduction 
 later. 
 
 The Chairman. But not at this time ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Not at this time. I would put it rather high 
 purposely, you understand, in order to avoid later embarrassment. 
 
 The Chairman. In order to test whether it could ultimately be 
 reduced lower. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Precisely. 
 
 The Chairman. Again remember that if it weighed 16 ounces or 
 1 pound it would be 12 cents. Under the present law it would be 
 16 cents. If it weighed 18 ounces, it would be 24 cents, and under 
 the present law 18 cents, so that there would be a very radical in- 
 crease on the postage between 16 ounces and 20 ounces? 
 
206 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And don't you, as a matter of fact, think that 
 that would just as likely decrease the number of pieces carriers 
 would have to handle as to increase it, considering these increases? 
 Don't you think that could be put in on the rural routes without the 
 slightest embarrassment to-morrow ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes; I think it could be put in with very little 
 embarrassment. I have already stated that I do not think there 
 would be much difficulty in starting in that way. 
 
 The Chairman. What I am somewhat surprised at is that you 
 fixed the rate so high for the rural route business, considering that 
 this does not go into the Railway Mail Service and you do not pay 
 for the weight; it is not handled by city carriers in delivery, and 
 it is not collected by city carriers, and as a rule it is deposited nine 
 times out of ten in a country post office or in a post office in a small 
 city as a rule, or the stations. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, we perform quite a considerable service, 
 for that rate. We can carry a parcel practically 50 miles. The 
 standard rural route is 24 miles, and we can take a parcel over one 
 route to a post office and send it out over another, making 48 miles. 
 
 The Chairman. But you have very little of that, you know? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. But that is a condition we have to meet. 
 
 The Chairman. But that is only in a sparsely settled country. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. But consider the charge for ordinary messenger 
 service or parcel transfer. It is rarely less than 15 cents for a parcel, 
 even for very short distances. 
 
 The Chairman. I know, but the messenger sends a special carrier 
 to deliver that package, and here you have the established service 
 with a carrier going to the box every day to deliver mail, whether 
 he has got it or not, and to collect it if it is there, and he simply 
 takes this along as an additional business. Now, it seems to me that 
 the rural-delivery service, a parcel post on rural-delivery service, can 
 be operated very much more cheaply than any other parcel post, so 
 far as cost to the Government is concerned. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. But you are confronted with the question of a 
 future extension of the service into all branches of the postal Sys- 
 tem, as I said, and if you have in mind a general rate for the entire 
 system, it would be rather unfortunate to grant any lower charge on 
 a branch of the system. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, of course I will say to you frankly, Gen- 
 eral, that I haven't in mind any such general system that carries the 
 same rate of postage for parcels that there would be on a rural route. 
 I don't think that this Government would be justified in transporting 
 any package of merchandise for 3,000 miles over the Railway Mau 
 Service where it has to be weighed and is handled a dozen times by 
 different employees of the Government, as much as it would for trans- 
 porting over a rural route out in the country 10 or 15 miles by a car- 
 rier, where simply one man handles it, and it does not cost the Gov- 
 ernment anything whatever additional to take it ; and I am not pro- 
 ceeding, so far as my questions go, upon a theory that the United 
 States Government ever will charge the same for a package deliv- 
 ered on a rural route as if it went in the railway mails. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, how about the parcels that will go out from 
 the railway transportation service to the rural districts?" 
 
PARCEL POST. 207 
 
 Senator Beistow. They would be delivered just as they are to-day ; 
 that would not be affected at all. If the rural delivery parcel post 
 was put in, and not a general parcel post, why, it would be a cent 
 an ounce, just as now, and the carrier would take it just as he does 
 now, but the local rate on business originating in that office would be 
 just like the drop letters. You drop a letter in the post office and the 
 man calls for it and you charge him a penny, but if it goes into the 
 Eailway Mail Service into another office you charge him 2 cents. Now, 
 it is just as easy to segregate a parcel that goes out on a route on 
 delivery there, as it is the different kinds of letters; it seems to me. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. You would have a series of rates then. You 
 would not adopt the flat-rate principle for a parcel-post system. 
 The Chairman. Oh, no; I would not on the rural routes; no. 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Of course that is the plan that is followed in our 
 international parcel post, and in all the rest of our mail service. You 
 have to decide, first of all, whether you are going to have a flat rate 
 and a monopoly of the business, or whether you are going to establish 
 a complicated system of rates based on distances. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, the four questions to be decided are, one, 
 whether the Government shall take a monopoly. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I said I was disposed to favor that. I have not 
 gone so far as to recommend it, but from the study I have been able 
 to give this subject, I am disposed to favor it as insuring the simpler 
 system and one that can be more readily conducted. 
 
 The Chairman. Second, whether you will permit private competi- 
 tion, as we do now, with second, third, and fourth class matter. 
 Third, whether we will adopt a general parcel-post system. Fourth, 
 or adopt a general parcel post with zone distances, weight limits, 
 and a sliding scale of prices. Those are the only four problems, 
 aren't they ? "They are all that have come to my mind. 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Those are important questions, of course. 
 v Senator Bristow. Well, you might add the fifth there. It is per- 
 fectly feasible to establish a rural parcel post and have none of those 
 others. 
 The Chairman. Well, that is included. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, but that could be excluded and put in as 
 
 a separate system without in any way prejudicing future action on 
 
 any one of the four propositions which you submitted, it seems to me. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that is included in the fourth classification 
 
 or designation, as to the zone system. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, the zone system would, of course, apply 
 to the Eailway Mail Service as well as anything else, while you could 
 1 make a fifth subdivision and- have the rural delivery. 
 ', The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 ! Mr. Hitchcock. But, Senator Bristow, I have not considered the 
 ; problem in that light at all; that is, of putting_ in a parcel-post 
 : f service on the rural routes alone without any extension of the service. 
 f Senator Bristow. I am very sorry. I recommended that some 
 ' seven or eight years ago in my report. # 
 
 ' Mr. Hitchcock. I have in mind constantly the extension ot the 
 t parcel post to other branches of the postal service, and consequently 
 '' in my plans I take that purpose into consideration. If we were to 
 take up the problem of putting in the parcel-post system on the rural 
 i routes alone, we could approach it in quite -a different way as to 
 
208 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 rates. But if we are going to make it finally a part of the general 
 system, it would seem to me unwise to adopt a separate rate at the 
 outset, one that you knew could not be prescribed for the whole 
 system. 
 
 The Chairman. We were talking about governmental operations 
 and private business operations. The desideratum in private busi- 
 ness is not to increase organization, except where it is demonstrated 
 that the organization in existence has reached its full peak of effi- 
 ciency, isn't it? The desideratum is to increase results through or- 
 ganization in existence, and the same with the Government, or it 
 should be, isn't it? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Absolutely so. That has been my purpose all 
 through this administration. 
 
 The Chairman. I am not criticizing you in any way, or there was 
 no intentional criticism, or implied. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I understand. 
 
 The Chairman. But there is no doubt but what the rural service 
 efficiency in the way of volume of business handled can be greatly 
 enlarged. Of that you are fully satisfied? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. We are fully satisfied of that and have repeatedly 
 pointed it out in our reports and urged it as a reason for introducing 
 the rural package delivery, as we term it. 
 
 The Chairman. Is the business of the whole department pretty 
 regular over the year, or are there periods in the year when the 
 volume of business vastly exceeds other periods ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. The volume of business fluctuates considerably. 
 I should hardly say that there are periods when the volume of busi- 
 ness vastly exceeds the volume of business in other periods, but it 
 does fluctuate considerably from time to time. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any idea as to the limit of the swing 
 or the volume in the way of percentages? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. The quarterly reports of the auditor will show 
 you the extent to which this increase occurs. 
 
 The Chairman. I did not know but that you might have it in 
 mind. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Noj I do not have the percentages in mind, but 
 the reports of the auditor will show. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it not true, then, at the time of the holidays the 
 business is generally greatest? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. You mean the Christmas holidays? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Usually that is a period when the business is 
 exceptionally large, owing to the holiday mails, which are extraor- 
 dinary mails. 
 
 The Chairman. And that probably is the maximum volume of any 
 period ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Ordinarily that is the period of greatest activity 
 in the postal service. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any idea how many days or weeks that 
 period extends over? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, it is comparatively brief; several weeks 
 would cover it. 
 
 The Chairman. Four weeks? 
 
PARCEL POST. 209 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Four weeks I think would cover it easily I do 
 not mean four weeks with the same volume. It increases and 
 
 ^L 111 ^ 68 ' 1<; may affect a P eriod as long as a month, 
 it ft- Cha l ieman - , Is not th e volume of business materially larger 
 then than at any other period of the year under normal conditions « 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It is considerably larger for a few days. 
 
 The Chairman. It would not extend over weeks? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Oh, no; not over weeks. It is considerably 
 larger tor a few days. You can see it in the holiday season in our 
 Washington post office. I pass there every day going in and out 
 and I observe that the stress of that period lasts for a few days only' 
 But you understand, of course, we meet that situation in an unusual 
 way ; we have allowances for additional help and bring in our re- 
 serve force in order to tide over the busy period. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think the volume of business during those 
 few days 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. We do not handle that with what you would call 
 the normal organization of the service. We have to 'bring in extra 
 help. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Call on the substitute lists, do you ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes; auxiliary service and additional wagon 
 service, messenger service, and so forth. 
 
 The Chairman. During that four days of extraordinary call on 
 the department, do you think the volume of business is double the 
 average ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. No ; I doubt that. I do not think it is as much 
 as that. 
 
 The Chairman. Fifty per cent greater? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Possibly 50 per cent. 
 
 The Chairman. You are able to take care of it by making prepa- 
 rations for it in anticipation? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It is hard to answer your question as you put it, 
 because it is not limited to any definite period. The day before 
 Christmas might be an extraordinary day; the business might be 
 double on that day, but not for any considerable period. There are 
 a few days when it is very heavy and then it is almost impossible to 
 handle it promptly, and that is why we have taken every possible 
 means to encourage the distribution of that extra business over a 
 considerable period. We urge the people to send their Christmas 
 gifts through the mails some little time in advance of Christmas Day. 
 
 The Chairman. But the department, since you have been at the 
 head of it, and, so far as you know, previously, has been able to handle 
 that excess business by making preparation for it ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. By making very careful preparation for it, by 
 putting on extra help and arranging for additional transportation by 
 wagon, and by bringing in more helpers and substitutes to assist the 
 carriers. We take great pains to handle the Christmas mail as 
 > promptly as possible because of the tremendous interest the people 
 take in that mail. Our greatest difficulty is usually on the railway 
 mail trains, because the conditions there are more fixed ; they are not 
 so elastic as they are in the post offices. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And it requires more technical knowledge on 
 the part of the clerks ? 
 
 21845— vol 1—12 14 
 
210 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. That is also another point; it requires more tech- 
 nical knowledge on the part of the employees. 
 
 The Chairman. If an enlarged parcel-post system were adopted 
 only on a few routes, don't you think that would lead to criticism 
 and complaint on the part of the public that did not enjoy the in- 
 creased privileges, in case such a plan was an increased privilege? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes ; I do ; and, of course, the department has no 
 purpose to limit it to certain routes. The trial on a few routes would 
 be of very short duration, just long enough to determine whether we 
 were proceeding in the proper manner. That was true of the postal 
 savings banks. We proceeded to extend the system rapidly after the 
 first test, which was a very brief one. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, it took about a year, did it not, to establish 
 500 postal savings banks? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Oh, no. We have now about 5,000 designated. 
 
 The Chairman. In operation? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. They will be in operation, all of them, before the 
 end of the fiscal year ; most of them will be in operation in the early 
 spring, probably by February. We are putting in about a thousand 
 a month, and I should say there would be about 7,000 or 8,000 in 
 operation by February. There will be practically all of the presi- 
 dential offices, which number about 7,500. We plan to go into the 
 fourth-class offices early in the spring. 
 
 The Chairman. Given a year's period from the enactment of the 
 law, how many offices were in operation under the postal savings 
 bank law a year from the date of the enactment of the law ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, I do not recall offhand, because quite a long 
 period was taken to work out the regulations. We operated then as 
 a board of trustees. We had frequent meetings, and, as was natural, 
 some difference of opinion occured in the board as to methods. Sev- 
 eral of the departments were represented, and we progressed rather 
 slowly for a considerable period. Then, you know, Congress, in its 
 wisdom, amended the law and placed the jurisdiction over the postal 
 savings system, except so far as the banking of the funds was con- 
 cerned, in the Post Office Department, and from that time we pro- 
 ceeded very rapidly. 
 
 The Chairman. How long has the bill been in existence? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It was enacted at the close of the last regular 
 session. 
 
 The Chairman. In the local rural parcel-post system, which you 
 recommended that the department be authorized to experiment with, 
 would there be any railroad transportation? 
 
 Mr: Hitchcock. No, sir; none. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you reason from this that such a parcel post 
 could without detriment to the postal revenues be made lower than 
 it could for a general parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. If the parcel post on the rural routes was to be 
 treated as a separate service, the rates could be made lower; that is 
 what Senator Bristow has in mind; I haven't any doubt that we 
 could make a rate that was considerably lower for that separate 
 branch of the service, and it may be possible to reduce the rate for 
 a general system below the one suggested, but I propose that at the 
 outset we take the rate that has been prescribed for the international 
 parcel post, which is in effect in this country. 
 
PARCEL POST. 211 
 
 The Chairman. That is, under the postal convention ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Under the postal convention, under a series of 
 postal conventions. 
 
 The Chairman. But that only applies to that class of mail that 
 goes out of the country ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. We fix our rate independently of the contracting 
 countries. 
 
 The Chairman. But you permit anyone in the United States to 
 send packages abroad at 12 cents a pound, up to the 11-pound weight 
 limit, do you not? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes; that is the rate and the weight limit. 
 
 The Chairman. And that is under the international convention 
 agreement made by the Postmaster General, by and with the advice of 
 the President, in accordance with the law ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes, sir. Of course it does not follow that the 
 rates of the foreign country are the same ; that does not follow neces- 
 sarily. 
 
 The Chairman. But is it not true in nearly every case that it is the 
 same ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Usually. 
 
 The Chairman. What exception exists to-day? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, I think in the case of Italy, for instance, 
 there is some divergence. Italy has a different rate. 
 
 The Chairman. With the United States? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. They have a different rate from the rate the 
 United States enforces. But I believe they are going to correct that 
 at the next convention of the Postal Union. 
 
 The Chairman. In your letter to me as chairman of the Committee 
 on Post Offices and Post Roads, dated October 5, you made the fol- 
 lowing statement : " It has not followed that the establishment of 
 a parcel-post system would materially increase the cost of the rural- 
 delivery service, nor is it expected that an additional business would 
 affect the prompt delivery of mail matter on a rural route. The 
 average load carried at the present time by the wagon on the rural- 
 delivery routes is only 25 pounds, whereas several times that weight 
 could be freely handled with the same equipment. For this reason 
 the installation of a limited parcel post on rural-delivery routes has 
 been urgently recommended, since the department would be enabled 
 thereby to obtain at the lowest possible expense a practical knowledge 
 of such a system, which it is submitted is absolutely essential before 
 a general parcel post is established." You think, then, that the 
 necessary equipment is already in existence ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I believe we could continue the service for a con- 
 siderable period with the equipment that we already have. But it is 
 of course a matter that will have to be determined by the future. 
 
 The Chairman. But to my mind I can see no possible reason, 
 given the statement of existing conditions as I understand them from 
 your letter, here for instance where the average is 25 pounds per 
 carrier, where I have seen estimates varying from 150 to 300 pounds, 
 dependent upon the equipment that the carrier could readily take. 
 The difficulty or the danger or the menace to the department or to 
 the Government in universal installation on the whole of the rural 
 service, from a business standpoint, and the necessity of experimenta- 
 tion, or the information that such experimentation would bring 
 
212 PARCEL POST. 
 
 through inspectors over certain few designated routes, when you have 
 40,000 routes upon which you have got to apply, or expect to apply, 
 ultimately, the whole system, and to my mind I can not conceive of 
 the slightest danger from universal adoption on the whole 40,000 
 rural routes. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, I do not describe it as a danger. 
 
 The Chairman. Nor difficulty. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Nor do I contend that it is impracticable. I sim- 
 ply suggest that, in accordance with my understanding of condi- 
 tions, it would be wiser to start in the manner I propose. I think it 
 would be more businesslike to take a limited number of routes at the 
 outset and make your first trial, a brief one, to be sure, under very 
 close supervision and scrutiny, so that we may proceed with greater 
 certainty as to the method of operation. I don't want delay ; I want 
 to progress as rapidly as possible ; it is simply a question of making 
 a safe start, and then I should be in favor of going ahead very rap- 
 idly. I found the proposed method so satisfactory in the case of the 
 postal savings bank that I am strongly inclined to favor it for a 
 parcel post. No extended period of experimentation is needed, but 
 only a very brief one on a few routes, to be certain we have the right 
 idea. 
 
 The Chairman. I would concur absolutely with your position if 
 this was inaugurating a new system, for instance, your postal sav- 
 ings bank, but this is entirely unlike that, and it is only an enlarge- 
 ment of the scope of the machinery you already have in existence, 
 which, according to your own statement, is not running at one- 
 fourth or at 25 per cent of its efficiency. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes ; there is something in that. I recognize the 
 difference. There is not the same necessity for experiment as ex- 
 isted in the case of the postal savings system. At the same time I am 
 in favor of beginning cautiously, and I believe it would be wise. 
 However, that is a matter of minor consequence when compared with 
 the main problem of getting the service authorized and under way in 
 some manner. 
 
 The Chairman. You want to act as the dynamo and not as the 
 brake, as I understand ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Precisely. I want the opportunity. I am very 
 impatient to have the authorization from Congress. You remember 
 how earnestly I urged this before the committee in the last regular 
 session. If the Senate committee had acted favorably then we could 
 have had this system under way to-day, and perhaps a lot of these 
 problems would have been settled. I am extremely anxious now, 
 Senator, to get favorable action from Congress. I am willing, 
 naturally, to follow the method prescribed by Congress. I am not 
 disposed to do otherwise. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, you would have to obey the law, General, 
 whatever Congress decided. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Surely ; and I would do it very gladly. 
 
 The Chairman. Generally speaking, are conditions on the rural 
 routes similar or dissimilar? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. In what sense do you mean? 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I mean are there any more difficulties on 
 one route than there are on others that have not been taken into con- 
 sideration in the establishment of the route? 
 
PARCEL, POST. 213 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I should say, speaking broadly, the conditions 
 are dissimilar. 
 
 _ The Chairman. Are not those conditions considered in the estab- 
 lishment of the route? I mean, you try to standardize the route, as 
 I understand, in accordance with the physical conditions? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. That is true ; but the increasing of the weight of 
 the load would be felt much more, of course, on certain routes than 
 on others, as for instance on those that go over the rough country in 
 mountainous regions. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, all the difference in conditions incident to 
 topography and climatic conditions are taken into consideration, 
 theoretically if not practically, in the establishment of the route. 
 That is in the beginning, it is not ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. I do not think there will be any difficulties 
 to speak of that we can not overcome. 
 
 Senator Beistow. General, can you furnish us— I do not think it 
 has been requested — with a statement as to the number of rural car- 
 riers who use wagons, those who go by horseback, and those who 
 use motor cars? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I think it will be well to have that in the record. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I will do that. That will be useful information in 
 this case. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The land of conveyance each route has. 
 
 The Chairman. I think the Fourth Assistant was requested to send 
 that in in one of the tables. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, I do not remember that he was in that 
 specific way. I do not think that that information was requested. 
 
 The Chairman. That was my impression ; but if the general will 
 kindly have it done we will be obliged. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Surely. If it has not been sent, I will arrange 
 to have it sent. 1 
 
 The Chairman. It is a fact, is it not, that both laws and depart- 
 mental orders have been issued which affect the Rural Delivery Serv- 
 ice as a whole — for instance, the order stopping rural carriers from 
 carrying mailable matter out of the mails became effective at one 
 and the same time on all rural routes ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. Many regulations of that kind have been 
 issued. 
 
 The Chairman. If it is a fact that the Rural Delivery Service 
 is now fully equipped, barring probably 100 of the routes, to carry 
 say, four times the weight of mail now handled by it, if each rural 
 route or group of rural routes is for all practical purposes a unit, 
 and if orders have already been issued affecting the rural routes, 
 why should not a law establishing the parcel post, or enlarging the 
 scope of the present parcel post on all rural routes at one and the 
 same time be both practicable and desirable? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. As I have already stated, I do not see any reason 
 why such a law could not be carried into effect, but as to the desir- 
 ability of starting the system in that way, you already know my 
 opinion. I do not think that is the best way to start it. I favor 
 the other plan, and I do so after very careful study of the problem. 
 
 1 Not jet received. 
 
214 PABCEL POST. 
 
 I think it would be safer and more businesslike to start with a few 
 routes for a brief period, and then extend the service after we see 
 how it works on those few routes. I think we would then know 
 better how to extend it. 
 
 The Chairman. From your distinction made between the admin- 
 istrative and legislative branches, the question of practicability, in 
 your opinion, should be best decided by the administrative branch, 
 because of its being a specialist in these particular lines. Can you 
 come with me and say the desirability should be passed upon by the 
 legislative branch because they presumably have some experience in 
 business matters, too ? I will be glad to meet you there at the com- 
 mon point. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I do not object to your holding that view, Sena- 
 tor. 
 
 The Chairman. I want to get yours. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. But that does not necessarily convince me. 
 
 The Chairman. I am trying to get your view. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I know I am frequently wrong, and I can not get 
 it out of my head that you might be. 
 
 The Chairman. I am, often. No individual is infallible. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I take the other view, and I adhere to it because 
 I can not see it in any other way ; that is my judgment as to the best 
 way to begin. If the problem were put in my hands, without restric- 
 tion, I should follow that plan. 
 
 Senator Bristow. General, if Congress should see fit to enact the 
 parcel post for rural routes, with a reasonable rate, and with a 
 weight limitation as suggested, making it general, you think the 
 department can handle it all right, don't you? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Oh, I am quite certain that we could put it into 
 effect, but I assume that Congress would have a regard for the finan- 
 cial effect of the introduction of the system ; I do not imagine that 
 they would wish to adopt a rate that would cause further losses to the 
 postal service. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Oh, no ; I say, a reasonable rate. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. A reasonable rate; yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I can see that a law might be enacted that would 
 be very unwise, but of course it would not be presumed that Congress 
 would make a rate that would be unreasonably low, but say 4 cents a 
 pound, on rural routes. Do you think that that would be unreason- 
 ably low? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I think that would be too low. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You do? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes, sir. I am inclined to favor a higher rate 
 than that. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, now, an exclusively rural service where 
 the package is only handled at the local office and delivered to the 
 carrier and by him to the patron on the rural route out of that office; 
 what would you fix as the minimum rate per pound ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, I do not feel justified in attempting to fix 
 a minimum rate at present. I do not know enough about it. That 
 is the reason I have suggested a rate that appears to be rather high, 
 and, no doubt, will be found high. 
 
PAROEL POST. 215 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. In my opinion, your rate suggested would 
 reduce the amount of business instead of increasing it. Of course I 
 may be mistaken in that, but that would be my judgment. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. If that actually happened, the next thing would 
 be a reduction of the rate; we could meet that situation very readily, 
 but it would be very difficult to increase a rate that had been once 
 established. 
 
 The Chairman. There is no question about that. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I therefore hesitate to take any chance of being 
 placed in that kind of a predicament. 
 
 The Chairman. General, if the Government is now neglecting a 
 source of revenue by not using the Rural Delivery Service to its 
 full capacity, is it not losing money to the extent that it does not se 
 use it? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes; it is, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. Are not the people being deprived of a facility, 
 for which there is a real and widespread demand, since this vast 
 machinery of the Rural Delivery Service continues to be used in such 
 a limited way only ? 
 
 _ Mr. Hitchcock. Yes ; that is the argument we have been advancing 
 from the department for the establishment of this service. 
 
 The Chairman. I simply wanted to ascertain if you have changed 
 your mind. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I still adhere to that view. 
 
 The Chairman. If it can be shown that it is practicable to estab- 
 lish a parcel post upon all rural routes at one and the same time, does 
 it not follow that any delay in the universal establishment of such a 
 system must result in continued loss to the Government and a con- 
 tinued deprivation of an additional mail privilege which it is possi- 
 ble and easy to afford the rural communities ? In other words, if we 
 can establish it, would you be in favor of its universal adoption, so 
 far as that branch of the service is concerned ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Assuming that you can establish it in the best 
 possible way without any preliminary testing or trial. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, of course, the only absolute proof or demon- 
 stration would be the universal adoption of the system and then 
 determination as to the result. We all realize that. 
 
 General, I will ask you a question which at the moment will ap- 
 pear irrelevant. Do you consider the time will arrive and, if so, 
 how soon when it will be advisable to reduce the postage on first-class 
 mail to 1 cent an ounce ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I do believe that the time will come, but as*to how 
 soon I am unable to answer. 
 
 The Chairman. You are not in favor of immediate reduction ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. No. It would be very unwise to attempt it im- 
 mediately. I do not favor that, but I hope to see the day when a 
 reduction will be possible. As you know, I favor a readjustment of 
 the postage rates by finally bringing the charge as close as possible 
 to the actual cost of service. 
 
 The Chairman. On the business basis of the Government conduct- 
 ing its own business at least not at a loss ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Precisely; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Your position is, then, as I understand it, that you 
 would fix all your postage rates according to the cost of the service ? 
 
216 PARCEL BOSI. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes; I favor that plan. 
 
 The Chairman. To your mind that is the business viewpoint? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I believe in that plan. > 
 
 The Chairman. Would it cost more to handle sixteen 1-ounce 
 letters than it would to handle four 4-ounce letters, assuming, of 
 course, that they were to different addressees? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Oh, yes. 
 
 The Chairman. How great a difference would there be ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, that is pretty hard to say. I do not know 
 offhand. 
 
 The Chairman. Let me ask you if you will correct me in an im- 
 pression I have already gained, to this effect, provided you, differ: 
 I have the impression that in the handling of the mail the actual 
 transportation charge of railway or steamboat amounts from about 
 22 to 25 per cent of the total cost to the Government in the mail 
 service. Would you criticize those figures, or do you think that is 
 about right ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I think it is considerably less than half. Those 
 figures were given for different classes of mail. 
 
 The Chairman. Some of the estimates show from 20 to 25 per cent 
 with from 70 to 80 per cent for all other expenditures, with a fluctu- 
 ation and margin of 5 per cent in the different estimates, 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. There is a detailed statement in the report that 
 gives the results of the inquiry of 1907-8 into the cost of carrying 
 various classes of mail matter. It would depend somewhat upon the 
 class of mail. 
 
 The Chairman. But surely an 8-ounce letter collected from one 
 address and delivered to another would not cost the same in expense 
 of service as eight 1-ounce letters collected from different addresses 
 and delivered to different addresses? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. No. 
 
 The Chairman. The cost of handling eight different letters would 
 greatly exceed the cost of handling the one 8-ounce letter? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes, sir . 
 
 The Chairman. Yet the revenues in both cases are the same, are 
 they not, to the Government? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes ; the revenues independently of cost. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any idea how many letters or how many 
 pieces of mail are handled per capita per annum in the United 
 States? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. You will find that given in the tables' in the an- 
 nual report. 
 
 The Chairman. But necessarily those statements must be approxi- 
 mate, of course, because you take your total population and you 
 take the total number of pieces of mail handled, and divide the num- 
 ber of pieces handled per annum by your population, and you get 
 about 150 per individual, whereas your tables referred to show 
 about 60 per individual. So I assume the deduction, based on the 
 same data and averages, worked out, that a few individuals handle 
 infinitely more mail than the general mass of the public? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. So that it must be more or less approximate. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Oh, yes. 
 
PARCEL POST. 217 
 
 The Chairman. "Would a reduction in the first-class postage be of 
 general benefit to the people as a whole, or in your opinion would 
 it rather be a special benefit to a few individuals, for instance, like 
 the big business houses ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I should think it would carry benefit to all those 
 using the mail. 
 
 The Chairman. Proportionately to the amount they use them? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Proportionately. Of course, almost everybody 
 uses the first-class mail to some extent. 
 
 The Chairman. As I understand, it is the department's desire — 
 in which I concur absolutely — to have the return address on all en- 
 velopes ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes, sir ; we favor the return address. 
 
 The Chairman. That a great saving would accrue to the Govern- 
 ment, by the universal adoption of that system. Is it your opinion 
 that a law requiring that is feasible and practicable ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. No, Senator, I doubt the wisdom of such a law. 
 
 The Chairman. For what reason? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, I think it would be objected to by a good 
 many people who do not wish to put a return address on letters for 
 personal reasons of their own. 
 
 The Chairman. Because of ignorance, or inability to write? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Oh, no. I should say a good many people would 
 dislike the lack of privacy that would result. 
 
 The Chairman. You think, then, such a law would result in great 
 irritation, all over the country ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I think so ; I do not favor that law. 
 
 The Chairman. How would that affect the desirability of it from 
 a governmental standpoint, the cost of operation, facility of handling 
 the business, in order to bring it about? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It do not think it is feasible to bring it about, 
 because my judgment is that the people would resent it as a com- 
 pulsory matter. I think many people would object to it for certain 
 kinds of correspondence. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, hns the thought ever come to you of mak- 
 ing a slight reduction in the cost of postage where the return ad- 
 dress was on the envelope below where there was no return on the 
 envelope ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It is rather difficult to fix a rate. 
 
 The Chairman. The only rate you could fix would be in the sale 
 of a large amount of envelopes? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. A reduction could be made in selling en- 
 velopes in large amounts. 
 
 The Chairman. Per thousand? 
 i Mr. Hitchcock. Per thousand. 
 
 The Chairman. That might be construed as a special privilege to 
 : the large consumer. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The difficulties, however, in lost matter come 
 i not from the parties who would buy 1,000 envelopes or 500. 
 
 The Chairman. The difficulty, I assume, comes from the illiterate ; 
 but the General assumes that the difficulty would not be so much 
 among the illiterate as among the individuals who do not desire to 
 have it publicly known who the author of the letter was. 
 
218 PARCEL. POST. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. All sorts of social correspondence, I should 
 suppose. 
 
 The Chairman. As I understand, you do not favor the immediate- 
 adoption of a general parcel post, but the adoption first for appli- 
 cation to the rural service and then the extension of the service as 
 rapidly as your ascertainment will permit? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes; you have stated it very well; fully as well 
 as I could state my view of the matter. The reason, Senator, that 
 I do not favor the immediate introduction of a general parcel post is 
 because I doubt if the postal service could handle it. It would 
 suddenly throw too great a burden on the postal system and interfere 
 too much with the handling of the ordinary mail, which must be kept 
 going all the time. But I am in favor o£ securing the benefits of a 
 general parcel post just as promptly as feasible. 
 
 The Chairman. The only question is a question of feasibility, 
 which question can only be answered, in your opinion, by experi-; 
 mentation on rural deliveries with the earliest possible general adop-, 
 tion ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes; followed by experimentation in cities. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the general application or adoption over 
 the whole country? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. That is it. 
 
 The Chairman. That is your plan ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. That is my plan. 
 
 The Chairman. In your opinion, don't you think much valuable 
 information could be secured from other countries where they enjoy 
 a general parcel post of a much larger scope than that now in ex- 
 istence in this country? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. No doubt much information can be gained. I 
 think it would be very helpful to have detailed information regard- 
 ing parcel-post operations in foreign countries. 
 
 The Chairman. But not determinate? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. But not determinate. I believe we could proceed 
 to introduce the system here without a careful study of the foreign' 
 system. In the case of the postal savings banks we departed rad- 
 ically from the systems of all other countries. I think we have made 
 a great improvement over any other system. However, I wroteto 
 all the foreign postal administrations, as you know, for detailed in- 
 formation of the kind you have in mind. I think I sent you a copy 
 of the inquiry I made of foreign postal administrations. 
 
 The Chairman. I received that a few days ago. Have you re- 
 ceived any replies? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Not yet. 
 
 The Chairman. You wrote October 5 ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes ; October 5. But the inquiry was a compre- 
 hensive one and wilt unquestionably require some time to make a 
 complete response. 
 
 The Chairman. You do not believe it possible, no matter what 
 those answers might be, to get sufficient information to warrant you, 
 in your judgment — had you the authority — to adopt or greatly en- 
 large the present scope of our general parcel post? You would still 
 want experimentation in this country because of what, to your 
 mind — — 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Because the conditions are so different. 
 
PARCEL POST. 219 
 
 The Chairman. Now, what is the difference in conditions ? That 
 is just what we want. 
 
 Mr. Hctchcock. Well, starting with the rural service 
 
 The Chairman. Which is an advantage over any other country 
 not possessing it, isn't it ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Certainly. But the conditions in our service are 
 peculiar. There is not any country abroad where they have just that 
 kind of a postal service in regions that are sparsely settled. 
 
 The Chairman. Australia has less than 2 inhabitants ip the square 
 mile, where we have 30. Australia has 400 more square miles than 
 we have in the United States proper. Australia has a very limited 
 amount of railroad compared to our railroad mileage, very few post 
 offices compared to our number of post offices. Why should not the 
 result, practically demonstrated in Australia, be of advantage to us ? 
 I can not see. There would be some force in taking Germany, with 
 her large centralized citizenship per square mile, less territory, less 
 railroad facilities, fewer post offices, but with infinitely better rates, 
 so far as parcel post is concerned, than we give our people. In fact, 
 taking the parcel post itself, we are away behind any country on 
 earth, although I think I agree with you that outside of the parcel 
 post we have the most efficient mail service in the world, from the in- 
 vestigation I have been trying to make for the last four months. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I am glad you feel that way. I think so, too. 
 
 The Chairman. And I think it has been demonstrated. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, our rural service is unique. I do not think 
 we can gain information from other countries that will be particu- 
 larly helpful in establishing a parcel post on that system. 
 
 The Chairman. But from the information we have gleaned from 
 you generally and from your assistants and from your reports, there 
 is no question in my mind at all about the ability of the rural service 
 to handle four times the volume of business that you do now, with 
 authority and appropriation to meet the peculiar conditions on prob- 
 ably 100 of your routes out of your 40,000, and I can not conceive 
 how by your plan you are going to quadruple your business on your 
 rural service. In fact, I doubt if you increase your business at all; 
 I am rather inclined to follow Senator Bristow in regard to what 
 I infer from his questions is his opinion, that with the rate limit you 
 put, making a pound your minimum, your business will rather de- 
 crease, because your average, possibly, to-day under your 4-pound 
 limit is about one-third of a pounds according to your own figures 
 in your report. A while ago your impression was it was about a 
 pound. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, I was wrong in that. 
 
 The Chairman. Naturally, you would not carry the matter all in 
 your head. A third of a pound. The weight average under the 
 11-pound maximum is about 3i pounds, according to the experience 
 in England, and according to the experience in the international post 
 with the 11-pound limit. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. I am convinced in my own mind, and if I had the 
 authority I would not hesitate to immediately adopt over the whole 
 rural-route system a much better or enlarged scope of service than 
 we have now, say, an 11-pound limit, with a much smaller rate. I 
 
220 PARCEL POST. 
 
 have not finally determined in my own mind on the rate, but it wouid 
 be much lower than that stated by you. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, as I have stated all along, I suggested, that 
 rate simply as a maximum starting point, with the idea of not having 
 too large a volume of business thrown into the service immediately. 
 I think there is some advantage in not taking over suddenly a great 
 volume of business, even on the rural routes. Certain questions have, 
 to be settled, as to the operation of the rural parcel post that can 
 be determined with a very small volume of business. How are we 
 going to make delivery of these parcels, for instance ? Take the cage 
 where the houses are some distance from the road and the boxes, are 
 on the road. 
 
 The Chairman. That would be purely a matter of detail. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, all those questions have to be settled. T/he 
 parcels can not be placed in the present boxes because of their size; 
 or are there to be larger boxes ? 
 
 The Chairman. Those questions can be worked out. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. These are the things we want to determine in 
 advance. There are many such questions to be settled. That is whys 
 we favor making a test of this service on a small scale until we have 
 a little more definite plan to apply to the whole rural system., 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the rural system is an improvement or 
 privilege that the people of the United States enjoy that no other 
 people in the world enjoy, isn't it? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. You can say that it is, in the form in which 
 we have it here. 
 
 The Chairman. Great Britain in her parcel post carries with an 
 air line, as I remember it, of 700 miles of territory, with a greatly 
 enlarged classification over anything we have in this country, so far, 
 as matter carried is concerned, like eggs, butter, vegetables, etc., at 
 6 cents for the first pound. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. With practically a 2-cent per pound increase fpi 
 every additional pound up to 11 pounds. If Great Britain can, 
 do that over a territory air line of 700 miles, why can't we do it at, 
 a much greater excess rate over our rural-delivery routes with the 
 maximum distance, as I understand, of 36 miles, and your standard- 
 distance of 24 miles? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. But is it not a fact that they lose a great; 
 sum every year on their parcel-post system ? i 
 
 The Chairman. No. The statement of the head of that depart- 
 ment is to the effect, as I remember it, that there is no definite exact 
 statement that can be made ; but in the opinion of the representative 
 of the head of that department it is practically self-supporting. The 
 loss is unappreciable, if at all. .■ 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, that can be done, I believe, for the rural 
 service if you make it an independent service and put it on the same 
 footing. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, would you kindly elaborate a little on that— 
 the independence of it? It may be clear to your mind as a specialist 
 thoroughly familiar with all branches of the post-office service. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. By adopting a special rate that shall apply only 
 to rural routes instead of merging the rural service with the rest of 
 the postal service in a general parcel-post system. 
 
PARCEL POST. 221 
 
 Senator Beistow. It would be on the same basis as the drop-letter 
 service which you have now ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Drop letters require only 1 cent postage at offices 
 where they do not have city delivery ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. That is the rate where there is no carrier service. 
 Local-delivery letters can be mailed for 1 cent at such offices. 
 
 Senator Beistow. That is a universal rule? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Oh, yes; at all offices where they do not have 
 carriers. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Will you accomplish the same result if you have 
 a different rate for your rural service from whatever your general 
 rate might be ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Oh, yes. 
 
 The Chairman. How do you think the efficiency on a dollar basis 
 of the service in this country compares with the service in Great 
 Britain? The salaries, as I understand, in this country are much 
 higher than they are in Great Britain, but by the dollar basis, I mean, 
 does the United States get the same value received for the dollar 
 expended, taking into consideration that she expends more dollars 
 than Great Britain? If not, then what is the percentage, if different? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, I can not answer that question. I assume, 
 though, that we do not get the same return in the way in which you 
 mean, because our salaries are so very much higher. The carriers of 
 London are efficient. They have an excellent carrier service there. 
 They are paid much less than our carriers. 
 
 Senator Bmstow. What do they get? 
 
 The Chairman. They get less than $500 — a postman — on an aver- 
 age, as against $1,040 on our average. But I did not know whether 
 anyone in the department had ever tried to work out on a dollar 
 basis as to the difference between the two countries. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. No. Of course it is an easy matter for them to 
 make the lower postage rate when their salary scale is so very much 
 lower than ours. That is an extremely important factor in the ex- 
 penses of the postal service. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the statement I made of a little less than 
 $500 applies only to postmen ; I assume that is the English term. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I assume so. I was speaking of the carriers 
 because the difference in salary is so marked as between carriers in 
 English cities and our carriers. 
 
 Senator Beistow. The same condition exists with regard to clerks, 
 too? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I presume so. 
 
 The Chaieman. But the American rate for a 1-ounce letter is 
 the same as the British rate for a 1-ounce letter, isn't it ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. 
 
 The Chaieman. On page 8 of your report of 1910, General, you 
 say: 
 
 In view of the vanishing postal deficit, it is believed that if the magazines 
 could be required to pay what it costs the Government to carry their advertising 
 pages, the department's revenues would eventually grow large enough to warrant 
 a 1-cent postage on first-class mail. , 
 
 You are in favor of raising the rate on second-class mail matter? 
 
222 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes, sir. I have so announced and recommended 
 formally to the commission on second-class mail matter. 
 
 The Chairman. You think the rate should at least cover the cosl 
 of the service? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I think it should eventually cover the cost oi 
 service. I do not recommend an immediate increase to that point, 
 and never have done so. 
 
 The Chairman. But that is your ultimate idea? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes ; by reasonable stages I think the rate should 
 be advanced to that point. At the same time, the expense of carry- 
 ing such mail and all classes of mail should be reduced, so far as 
 possible, by a proper administration of the department. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Then you are in favor of changing the policy 
 of the Government, since the second-class rate was originally estab- 
 lished? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I am, decidedly. I think there is no longer any 
 sufficient reason for that policy. 
 
 Senator Beistow. "Well, I differ as to that. I think there is more 
 reason now, or just as much, as there used to be. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I am aware of that. We have discussed it several 
 times and I think we understand each other quite well. I know you 
 are giving me the same credit for sincerity of purpose which I give 
 you. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Oh, yes. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. All I want to do is to accomplish the best thing 
 for the general welfare. 
 
 The Chairman. That is all any of us want. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. We are all working for the same purpose, but it 
 is natural we should differ somewhat in our viewpoints. 
 
 The Chairman. You deem it only practicable to gradually change 
 the present method of handling second-class mail matter, with little 
 or no injury to the public interests, to such an extent that eventually 
 this matter should be handled without a loss? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes ; that is my view of the matter. But I think 
 we should be very careful not to make such radical changes as would 
 bring unnecessary loss on the publishing industry. It is entitled to 
 the same protection as any other industry. 
 
 The Chairman. If, in your opinion, the Government has been car- 
 rying this class of mail at a great loss to itself from the business 
 standpoint of expenses and receipts of that particular service, is it 
 not true, then, that for many years some interests have been enjoying 
 special privileges, namely, the interests coming under that service? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It seems so to me. I have always taken the view 
 that they practically had the benefit of a subvention. The Govern- 
 ment has transported their publications at a charge that was far be- 
 low the cost. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you consider that the educational advantages 
 to the people have been sufficiently compensatory to offset the loss to 
 the Government, as based upon your calculations ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. No; I do not. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you believe that some consideration should be 
 given to the educational advantages? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes, sir. v 
 
PARCEL POST. 223 
 
 The Chairman. Have you determined in your own mind how 
 much ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I have not. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you want experimentation on that? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I do not favor the method that has been followed. 
 I think it would be more direct and more businesslike, if the Govern- 
 ment wishes to expend the people's money in that way, to make a 
 direct appropriation for educational purposes, so that the people will 
 know exactly what it is costing them. Then the bookkeeping of the 
 Government in that regard will be exact. 
 
 The Chairman. That is interesting. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How will you suggest an appropriation ? 
 
 The Chairman. That is very interesting. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I do not make such a suggestion, but I do object 
 to the present method, which brings a very heavy loss on the people 
 that is the subject of dispute because of its being indeterminate and 
 not charged up in a definite manner. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But if you suggest a direct appropriation, what 
 have you in mind as to making it, and how would you go at making 
 a direct appropriation for the educational advantages? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, I have not worked that out in my mind, but 
 the principle of.the thing was what I wanted to suggest. 
 
 The Chairman. Haven't you got to work it out before you come to 
 your other conclusions ? In other words, what are we going to pay 
 for educational advantages? Isn't that one of the factors to be de- 
 termined ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. If it is decided that it is wise to do that — 
 and there are some arguments in favor of it — I believe it should be 
 done in a more definite way as a business proposition. You see my 
 point? 
 
 The Chairman. I do, and there is force in your point. But here 
 is the point I want to get. How are you going to get your ascer- 
 tainment as to the amount the Government will pay for educational 
 advantages? Where does the system of experimentation come in 
 there? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. That is for Congress to determine. 
 
 The Chairman. Bully ! It is for Congress to determine that, but 
 not for Congress to determine in reference to the parcel post, accord- 
 ing to your viewpoint; with no criticism, but in all seriousness, 
 you think the department is better able to determine about the parcel 
 post than Congress, with due respect between the different coordinate 
 branches of the Government, but Congress should determine what 
 should be paid for educational advantages. I do not see the dis- 
 tinction. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, Congress should determine also what it 
 wishes to appropriate for a parcel post to cover the various stages 
 of its introduction, but it should determine first of all the question 
 of its establishment. That is for Congress to determine, and my 
 only divergence from your view, as I see it, is that I think it wiser to 
 leave the details to be worked out by the department that must neces- 
 sarily begin the system and be responsible for its conduct. I think it 
 would be better to decide in a general way what you wish to have 
 accomplished and then let the department and its trained officers 
 
224 PAECEL. POST. 
 
 work out methods, in accordance with their judgment, for the carry- 
 ing out of the problem. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Eeferring to the appropriation for educational 
 purposes, instead of for a low rate of postage, would not the same 
 theory require the Government, instead of providing for a duty to 
 protect their own industry, to appropriate money direct for the de- 
 velopment of that home industry, and not levy a duty for it ? 
 
 (Thereupon, at 1.30 o'clock p. m., the committee took a recess until 
 2 o'clock p. m.) 
 
 AFTEE RECESS. 
 
 (The committee met at 2 o'clock p. m.) 
 
 Senator Bristow. Eeferring to an appropriation for educational 
 purposes, instead of for a low rate of postage, would not the same 
 theory require the Government, instead of providing for a duty to 
 protect their own industry, to appropriate money direct for the devel- 
 opment of that home industry, and not levy a duty for it? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. That is quite another matter, and I do not care to 
 express any opinion regarding it. Do not understand me as advo- 
 cating a Federal appropriation for educational purposes. I merely 
 wanted to suggest that if Congress thinks it wise to give Government 
 aid for educational purposes it would be more busirfesslike to give it 
 in some more direct form. 
 
 The Chairman. General, you believe it much wiser, or easier, 
 rather, to reduce than to raise a rate of postage based upon your own 
 experience ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I do not think there is any question as to that. 
 
 The Chairman. Have a large number of people been benefited by 
 being able to secure subscriptions to periodicals at a lower charge 
 than would have been possible under a higher charge, in your opinion? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. As I understand it, you have reference to the 
 postage rates ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. And you are inquiring if, under the present low 
 rates, people have been able to get their subscriptions at a lower 
 price 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; in your opinion. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Than would have been the case if the postage 
 rates were higher? I do not think that the postage rates have af- 
 fected materially the price of the subscriptions. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Eeferring to my last question, General, what 
 form would you suggest ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Do you mean what form of an appropriation? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I have not any suggestion to make on that point; 
 I have not given it any special thought. I have not worked it out iu 
 my own mind. I am not advancing such an appropriation, you 
 understand. 
 
 Senator Bristow. As I understand, then, you take issue with the 
 policy adopted originally when the second-class privilege, was ex- 
 tended, and believe that it was wrong and should not be continued? , 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I do not contend that it was wrong, or that it 
 was in any sense unwise or an improper policy at the time it was 
 
PARCEL POST. 225 
 
 originated, but I do think that there is no longer the same occasion 
 for it, and that if it is to be continued at all it should be continued in 
 another form. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is, you do not think the American people 
 need now the wide dissemination of popular information that they 
 formerly needed ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I do not think that there is the same necessity for 
 the expenditure of money on the part of the Government. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You say " Expenditure of money " ; of course 
 you regard the low rate of postage as equivalent to an expenditure 
 of money, do you ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes; I regard it as practically the same thing. 
 It results in a considerable loss of postal revenue. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It is unnecessary to burden the record with 
 questions along this line, I presume, because the Postmaster General's 
 views are well known, and I simply want to say that I disagree with 
 him very radically as to the amount of alleged loss on second-class 
 matter, believing that the second-class privilege has been a source of 
 income, sufficient almost to compensate for the apparent loss in that 
 class of matter by developing other classes of postage upon which the 
 Government makes a profit. It is the same principle as that of the 
 railroad companies, which will frequently transport raw material at a 
 very low rate in order to develop a higher grade of business upon 
 which to make profit. -*t 
 
 The Chairman. General, how long a time do you consider would 
 be necessary after the enactment of the law, provided Congress should 
 enlarge the scope of the present parcel-post law by raising the weight 
 limit to 11 pounds and reducing the rate to an average of 10 cents a 
 pound, to make such a law effective throughout the country ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. That ought to be accomplished within a year, it 
 seems to me, so that by the time Congress is ready to appropriate 
 again it will have a pretty good idea of what will be required. 
 
 The Chairman. In case Congress enacted such a law, would you 
 advocate the starting of the system all at once, or gradually? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I would adhere to the same plan I have suggested, 
 namely, that some initial steps be taken on a limited scale with the 
 idea of fixing the methods of operation more definitely, and then, 
 having decided those questions of detail, to proceed with the exten- 
 sion rapidly. 
 
 The Chairman. In your opinion, there is no definite information 
 now in existence as to what an approximate expense for additional 
 equipment would be? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I do not think you can tell with any certainty 
 what it will amount to. 
 
 The Chairman. But the matter of expense would depend entirely 
 on the amount of increased business ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes ; and on the method in which it was handled. 
 
 The Chairman. We assume that you would have the regular effi- 
 ciency applied. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. But as to the question of delivery ; how far would 
 you go with a system of delivery? 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the address, or the delivery at the office; just 
 details of that nature ? 
 
 21845— vol 1—12 15 
 
226 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes; certainly. 
 
 The Chairman. I desire to insert here in the record a statement 
 made by Henry Fawcett, postmaster general of Great Britain, in 
 1884, the parcel post having been started there August 1, 1883 ; see 
 report for 1884, page 9 : 
 
 Without venturing to predict what will be the amount of business which will 
 ultimately be done under the parcels post, I am confident that whether the busi- 
 ness is large or small the working expenses can be adjusted to the number of 
 parcels carried, and thus the revenues secured against loss. 
 
 Would there be any danger of serious interference with the han- 
 dling of the first-class mail, in your opinion. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I do not think there would be any danger of se- 
 rious interference on the rural routes if the parcel-post system were 
 properly started. Naturally, in any preliminary tests of the pro- 
 posed system care should be taken to work out such methods as would 
 insure the proper handling of the first-class mail. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, given a hypothetical case of adoption of a 
 general parcel post, 11 pounds maximum weight, average 10 cents 
 per pound postage, and present classification in reference to mail 
 carried, do you believe the increase in the volume of business would 
 be so great as to interfere, under the present facilities, with handling 
 the first-class mail? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I think that if you adopted a low rate at the 
 outset and consequently began immediately to carry a heavy volume 
 of parcel mail the extra time it would take to deliver parcels along a 
 standard route would probably make it difficult for the carrier to 
 complete his route in the usual time. 
 
 The Chairman. That could be remedied by additional carriers? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. That condition would have to be remedied by a 
 reorganization of the routes, which would mean, of course, additional 
 carriers. 
 
 The Chairman. And if there were a very vast increase in the vol- 
 ume of business of fourth-class matter, would not the same principle 
 of segregation in transportation, express or fast freight, probably 
 be able to be worked out satisfactorily as has been done in other 
 countries ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I think so. Of course you would have quite a 
 different condition on the railways. The parcel mail would be 
 handled separately on the railroads, I assume, whereas on the rural 
 routes the same carrier would have to attend to all classes of mail. 
 
 The Chairman. But we have all of us pretty well satisfied our- 
 selves that we can add a good deal to the volume of the carrier. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Senator, that is perfectly true as regards volume. 
 There is the question of delivery, however. A carrier can take a 
 larger amount in his wagon, but when he comes to make delivery of 
 a larger number of pieces, and particularly of parcels, that may re- 
 quire some other method of delivery, it is problematical as to how 
 much additional time will be required. That you can not tell until 
 you put it into operation. 
 
 The Chairman. That would depend, would it not, on the system 
 or detail adopted as to whether the addressee should receive notice 
 in advance that such a parcel might be expected the next day, and 
 know of its coming for instance? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Certainly. 
 
PAECELi POST. 227 
 
 The Chairman. They would be waiting for the carrier to come 
 along ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. One question that has perplexed me a good deal 
 is that of making deliveries to houses that are distant from the road- 
 way, but have their boxes on the roadway. There is no difficulty, 
 so far as the ordinary mail is concerned, for it is simply dropped into 
 the box, and at a convenient time the addressee comes down and gets 
 it out of the box, but with a parcel it would be quite different. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How do you do with the parcels now ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, the business is very small at present, and 
 the carriers usually take unusual means to see that parcels are de- 
 livered. Sometimes they are delivered to neighbors, arrangements 
 being made whereby they can be delivered to the nearest house when 
 the people addressed are living far from the road. Carriers also 
 leave notices in the boxes so the addressees will come down to get 
 their parcels on a subsequent delivery, but I assume that in most 
 cases the carriers actually make delivery at the houses, even if they 
 are some distance from the road, as is the case pretty generally with 
 money orders and registered packages. There is a rule in the Rural 
 Delivery Service that a carrier shall not go over a certain distance 
 to make deliveries at a house, but Ave do not enforce that strictly. 
 If they have a money order or registered package, they usually make 
 delivery, but those are infrequent cases compared with the deliveries 
 of ordinary mail matter. Now, those are problems that will have 
 to be worked out. The parcel is a very different thing from a let- 
 ter. A letter goes right into the box, but a parcel has to be provided 
 for in some other manner, and that must be taken into account. 
 
 (Letter of the Postmaster General dated Dec. 1, 1911, follows, 
 giving additional information as to delivery of package mail on rural 
 routes, in cities, and at offices where city delivery is not in operation :) 
 
 Office of the Postmaster Genekal, 
 
 Washington, D. C, December 1, 1911. 
 
 Hon. Jonathan Botjbne, Jr., 
 
 Chairman Committee on Post Offices ana Post Roads, 
 
 , United States Senate. 
 
 My Dear Senator Bouene: I beg to acknowledge the receipt of your letter 
 of the 28th ultimo, inquiring what is the present method of delivering package 
 mail and whether all parcels are delivered to the residences or places of busi- 
 ness of the addressees. 
 
 In reply you are informed that at offices where city delivery is not in opera- 
 tion such matter is delivered to the addressee upon his calling at the post office. 
 
 All parcels addressed to patrons of rural routes are delivered by carriers; 
 if the package is too large to be placed in the rural box and the addressee re- 
 sides out of hailing distance of the route, carriers leave a notice in the box 
 for the patron to meet them at the box on the next trip. 
 
 Where city delivery is in operation carriers deliver parcels unless they are 
 too heavy or bulky, in which case the addressee is notified by mail to call at 
 the post office for them. In determining whether or not packages shall be de- 
 livered by city carriers postmasters are required to consider the amount of 
 first-class mail to be delivered as well as the weight and size of the packages. 
 
 Parcels addressed to patrons who rent post-office boxes are placed therein 
 unless the package is too large, in which case a notice is put in the box for the 
 patron to call at the general delivery window. 
 
 The foregoing applies both to foreign parcel-post matter and to domestic 
 mail. 
 
 Tours, very truly, Fkank H. Hitchcock, 
 
 Postmaster General. 
 
228 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you not think that in the case of the large 
 parcels, a great majority of them, the people would be expecting them 
 and waiting for them — of course, they are sent on orders ? 
 
 The Chairman. Especially at the holiday time ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. In some cases they would be expecting them and 
 possibly looking for them at the time of delivery. That would sim- 
 plify the situation very much, but in all probability there will be 
 many cases where parcels will come at an unexpected time and with- 
 out any notice whatever. 
 
 The Chairman. But would not it be feasible from an administra- 
 tive standpoint to require boxes of certain dimensions, not prohibitive 
 and not necessarily as large as those which are provided by the inter- 
 national convention, but, say, half of those dimensions, then when- 
 ever a parcel came along exceeding those dimensions the carrier could 
 drop into the box a card for the addressee notifying him that a 
 package would be delivered the next day at the box, so that the ad- 
 dressee could be there to receive it? It does not seem to me that 
 there would be any insurmountable barrier that could not be readily 
 worked out. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. No ; none at all. That has been considered. We 
 believe that the service can be readily introduced, although the little 
 difficulties that have to be surmounted in some manner are going to 
 add to the amount of work thrown upon the carrier and consequently 
 more time will be consumed in making deliveries. I wanted to make 
 the point particularly clear that it is not alone the question of space 
 in the wagon, but that other problems have to be solved. 
 
 The Chairman. I have inferred from some correspondence that 
 we have had with you and the department under you that you be- 
 lieve that the parcel-post systems of Germany and Great Britain are 
 operated at a loss. We touched on Great Britain a little earlier. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It has been the opinion in our department that, 
 ■owing to the fact that their postage rate on ordinary mail corre- 
 sponded so closely with ours, and the fact that their salary expendi- 
 tures were very much less, there must be a considerable profit m the 
 handling of ordinary mail in those countries and that the profits thus 
 accruing made it possible to conduct a parcel post at very low rates, 
 •necause the rates are exceedingly low for the service performed. That 
 < apparent on the face of it, is it not ? 
 
 The Chairman. Seemingly so; but, now, a statement from the 
 postmaster general of Great Britain to the effect that the loss was 
 negligible and that, in his opinion, parcel post is operated on about 
 an even basis — that is, no loss to the Government — would be received 
 by you as satisfactory evidence, I take it? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I should assume that to be correct, if the state- 
 ment was one of recent date. I have never seen such a statement. I 
 did not know that was the case. ' 
 
 The Chairman. There are statements made, or reports made, from 
 which could be clearly deduced the fact that there was no loss other 
 than a possible negligible loss, and that it was about self-supporting. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I am surprised to hear that. I have made some 
 inquiries of officers in our department who have endeavored to gain 
 information regarding the cost of conducting the postal service in 
 foreign countries and have been informed that in not one of those 
 
PARCEL, POST. 229 
 
 countries has there been any successful attempt to arrive at the actual 
 cost of conducting the separate branches of such a service. 
 
 The Chairman. You collate your data and information and de- 
 terminations in many cases by hypothetical segregations on the doc- 
 trine of averages, do you not ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And you assume that the conclusions reached are 
 sufficiently definite and authoritative to operate under ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Certainly. I am willing to accept the statement 
 of the postmaster general of Great Britain on that point, of course. 
 
 The Chairman. In Great Britain is it not a fact that the Govern- 
 ment pays the railroads 55 per cent of the gross receipts from all 
 parcels transported over the railroads, no matter for how short a 
 distance ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Now, you are better informed than I on those 
 points, Senator. If you have that information I shall be very glad 
 to accept it. I have not given any special study, as I have said, to 
 the parcel-post system in these other countries. I have not had an 
 opportunity. 
 
 The Chairman. I would like to insert here the following official 
 data received from the American ambassador at London : 
 
 The parcel post is carried on side by side with other branches of postal 
 work, and, as it is not possible to earmark all expenditures proper to the par- 
 cel post, no exact estimate can be formed of it, but it is probable that the 
 receipts of the parcel post are not much in excess of the expenditure. 
 
 That is from the ambassador, that — 
 
 The receipts of the parcel post are not much in excess of the expenditure 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. That would seem to indicate a profit. 
 
 The Chairman. From the opinion of the ambassador? 
 . Mr. Hitchcock. From the opinion of the ambassador ; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Is the practice of the United Kingdom and Ger- 
 many in not separating the costs of the parcel-post service, from 
 the cost of other branches of the service peculiar to those two coun- 
 tries, or is that of the United States with respect to the several 
 branches of the postal service? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. My understanding is that the cost inquiry made 
 by the United States Post Office Department in 1907 and 1908 was 
 the first comprehensive investigation of that kind in any postal 
 service of the world, and that the results stand as absolutely unique. 
 At the time we were planning to make that investigation we com- 
 municated with the officers of foreign postal administrations, hoping 
 to obtain information that would be of assistance, but failed in every 
 instance to gain any such assistance. 
 
 The Chairman. I desire to insert in the record the following offi- 
 cial data received from the American charge d'affaires at Berlin : 
 
 There are no statistics showing the revenues and expenditures of the parcel- 
 post service. 
 
 The Government operates the railroads in whole. The parcel-post system 
 is an integral part of the post system, and since the railroads are also 
 operated by the Government, one might say that the two branches form a 
 pari of the general system under the Government and are mutually influ- 
 «nced according to the general conditions affecting the public transportation 
 service. In general, the parcel-post service is well administered and prompt 
 in delivery. The attitude of the German people with reference to parcel post 
 
230 PABOEL POST. 
 
 would be difficult to define, since the people regard the parcel post as they : 
 do the regular letter post. The benefits to the people which have resulted in 
 its operation are quick and cheap transportation of parcels and, in general, all 
 the benefits which are claimed for such a system by its advocates in the United 
 States. It can not be discovered that there is any opposition by shopkeepers 
 in small towns on the ground that the parcel post operates to their damage 
 in favor of the large department stores. The conditions governing the retaih 
 trade in Germany are so different from those of the United States that it is 
 almost impossible to draw a parallel on this point. There is comparatively 
 little trade done by large German department stores, which in point of fact 
 are comparatively few outside the immediate delivery area of their respective 
 cities. 
 
 If the loss for conducting the parcel-post system on an enlarged 
 basis were comparatively small, say, less than 5 per cent on the 
 amount invested, would you consider that an argument against the 
 system ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes ; I would, to that extent. 
 
 The Chairman. You are firmly of the opinion that every govern- 
 mental operation should be treated purely on the business basis of 
 revenues and disbursements? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I am very strongly of that opinion. I have come, 
 to that conviction in the last year or two. When I entered the de- 
 partment as First Assistant Postmaster General I did not hold that 
 view, but I now believe that it is very desirable. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you give briefly the reasons for your change 
 of opinion ? That is very interesting and I would like to get your 
 views. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It is my judgment that the people have much 
 greater confidence in the administration of a department that makes 
 ends meet, as they say, and I think also that Congress, to whom we 
 have to look for our appropriations, is more willing to listen to the 
 suggestions and recommendations of the department if we are able 
 to show a balance sheet of that kind. I find that to be true in my 
 own experience with the Members of the Senate and the House. I 
 think the attitude of the appropriations committees is quite differ-- 
 ent since the time when it became apparent that we were trying to 
 conduct the department in that manner. It means, of course, that 
 there will be no reckless expenditures. When the purpose is to keep 
 expenditures down to the point where the revenue will cover the 
 expense it means watchfulness all along the line and more careful 
 consideration of every possible source of extravagance. It means 
 also a better morale on the part of the executive officers who have to 
 do with the operation of the service. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you think that the general welfare stand- 
 point is better subserved by increased efficiency, even at increased 
 cost, as to governmental operations certainty or correctness of in- 
 formation, than it would be by decreased cost to the public generally, 
 because of the theory that the public would have to pay the taxes 
 anyhow. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Naturally, that fact would have a very important 
 influence. The people have to make good any deficit that occurs. If 
 you aim to make your revenues equal your expenditures, or, to put it 
 the other way, to keep the expenditures down so that they will not 
 exceed your revenues, you have a definite purpose constantly before 
 you. Every officer of the service must keep that purpose in mind, 
 and it is bound to make him more cautious and conscientious in his 
 
PARCEL POST. 231 
 
 handling of the funds that are intrusted to him by Congress. I 
 think the principle is a very wise one to enforce, in a Government 
 establishment so tremendous as the postal service, and with appro- 
 priations so vast. 
 
 The Chairman. Given any enlargement of governmental function 
 or innovation in governmental operation, the first viewpoint that 
 comes to your mind is the dollar viewpoint — cost and revenue — is 
 that true ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock:. Not in so strict a sense as your question might 
 imply. I am reverting to the .previous inquiry about the loss of 5 per 
 cent on the investment. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; theoretically. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It might be entirely proper and wise to incur such 
 a loss when a new branch of the service is first put into operation, 
 with the expectation that in a reasonable time after it is thoroughly 
 organized and smoothly operating it will bring in sufficient revenue 
 to meet the expenses. That is the purpose to have in view constantly. 
 In the case of the postal-savings banks, for instance, we must operate 
 at a loss for a time. That is inevitable, until our deposits are large 
 enough to give us a sufficient margin of income from the very small 
 difference between the rate of interest that is allowed depositors and 
 the rate that is charged the banks. Naturally, the initial expenses 
 will be proportionately very much heavier than the expenses for the 
 system when it is in full operation. 
 
 The Chairman. So that even under your policy of experimental 
 adoption in the postal-savings bank your information obtained is not 
 determinative, and the result of having the balance on the right side 
 of your ledger is theoretical, is it not? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It is theoretical in that sense, and necessarily so, 
 because we are operating under a positive law from which we cannot 
 escape. 
 
 The Chairman. And you do not want to in the case of the par- 
 cel post? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. If we can avoid that condition in the parcel post 
 we wish to do so. I had in mind the postal savings system when I 
 cited that case. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think that the adoption by the Govern- 
 ment of an experimental or, if you please, a permanent system of 
 parcel post on rural routes would give us a good idea of how much 
 the general service can be expected to obtain and what equipment 
 might be necessary for a general service, and would give us some 
 indication of the cost for a general service, or do you think that the 
 information obtained would simply be of value for the rural routes 
 alone ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I have no doubt that it would be of some value 
 as bearing on a general system, but T do not assume for a moment 
 that it would be conclusive. I do not think the information we 
 should obtain from the tests on the rural routes would necessarily 
 enable us to put in the service in other branches of the postal system. 
 
 The Chairman. Any more than if we attempted to start a new- 
 business and ascertained whether it was going to pay or not we 
 would start where the business was greatest in the beginning. We 
 would not start where it was the least and work out, would we? We 
 would start at the concentrated points. 
 
232 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. If you had unlimited resources and an oppor- 
 tunity to organize immediately on a broad scale that would be the 
 natural thing to do, but, of course, this is a very different problem. 
 
 The Chairman. Your policy has been to place the postal service 
 as far as possible on a paying basis? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes ; that has been my purpose. 
 
 The Chairman. The revenues by the adoption of the system on the 
 rural routes probably would not be anything like as greatly increased 
 as it would by the adoption in the thickly populated centers. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. No; the business would not be nearly so heavy, 
 of course. 
 
 The Chairman. Your idea as to the rural routes is simply that 
 you have existing machinery and equipment which is not running 
 at anything like its full efficiency? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes ; and owing to that condition the return from 
 a. given rate would be larger, in my judgment, on the rural routes. 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, there is much more waste now due 
 to conditions on the rural routes. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Much more waste in that branch of the service; 
 yes. There is no condition like it in other branches of the service 
 so far as I am aware. 
 
 The Chairman. And which you want to save. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. There is a very different condition affecting the 
 problem for the rural routes and the City Delivery Service from that 
 presented by the railway transportation branch of the system. On 
 the rural routes and in the City Delivery Service it is impossible to 
 tell how far the people who are now transporting their own parcels 
 will patronize the parcel-post service. How about farmers who are 
 going to and from town carrying in and out their packages ? We do 
 not know how far they are going to change their habits in this re- 
 spect and intrust their packages to the parcel post ; nor do we know 
 how far the people who walk to and from markets and stores and 
 ride to and from them on the street cars or in their own vehicles, car- 
 rying their own bundles and packages, will patronize a local parcel 
 post. That is something that must be determined by actual experi- 
 ence. We must find out by experience how far the people are going 
 to place their express business in our hands. But on the railroads i 
 you have a more definite situation. 
 
 The Chairman. More easily met? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. We know to-day what the volume of the 
 railway express business is, because it furnishes the only method by 
 which merchandise can be transported from city to city. You have a 
 definite condition to deal with on the railways. 
 
 The Chairman. But you have to make an approximation there, be- - 
 eause the average of your express companies is 34 pounds on all that 
 they carry. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes, we have factors that we can depend on, but 
 ®n the rural routes and in the City Delivery Service the conditions 
 are uncertain. 
 
 The Chairman. But I say, let us take every information from 
 every country that has given this matter a study and utilize that. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I favor that plan. It is why I sent an inquiry 
 abroad as I did. 
 
 The Chairman. The inquiry of October 5 last? 
 
PARCEL POST. 233 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes, of October 5 last. I took great pains in pre- 
 paring the inquiry in order to get as much information as possible:. 
 
 The Chairman. On the same line of these difficulties we have a 
 limit of difficulties established by the weight limit, by the determina- 
 tions, and by the classification as to what is mailable ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yefc. 
 
 The Chairman. So that we can chart out certain known factors 
 dependent upon the law, rules, and regulations, and then work from 
 that? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes; that would be very helpful in assisting us 
 to gauge the probable character and volume of the business. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, in the case of an enlargement of the present 
 system over the country generally or on rural routes, you would sug- 
 gest a minimum rate to be charged and no parcel to be carried for 
 less than that rate ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And you would raise your minimum from an 
 ounce basis to a pound basis? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I am favorable to a pound rate and lam strongly 
 opposed to the idea of having an ounce rate for a parcel post. My 
 understanding is that a pound is the smallest unit of weight that is 
 in force in any country ; that ordinarily the unit is larger than that 
 for a parcel-post service. 
 
 The Chairman. They have a pound rate in many countries and the 
 same rate for 1, 2, and 3 pounds, and then an increased rate for 
 from 3 to 5, and so it varies in the different countries; but what 
 would be the objection to this. General — it has rather appealed to 
 me — taking 6 ounces as your unit, fix a price, then an increased price 
 from 6 to 8, an increase from 8 to 12. another increase from 12 to 
 16, and then a regular price, either per pound of 4 cents, or whatever 
 the amount might be, or if it were 4 cents — which rather appeals to 
 me — a cent for 4 ounces; of course, the revenues would be much 
 greater on your pound basis to the Government, but I confess that 
 even if that particular branch were operated at a small loss I would 
 consider that it was justifiable, especially on your theory that the 
 increased efficiency during the period would probably catch up. and 
 undoubtedly would, in the development. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I think the system ought to be made just as 
 simple as possible, especially at the outset, and to have rates based 
 on a smaller unit than the pound is of course going to complicate it. 
 I think a pound for that kind of service is a small enough unit. I do 
 not mean to say that I would apply to the second pound and the 
 third pound the same rate of postage that I would to the first. 
 Ultimately the rate should be greatly reduced, I think, but at the 
 outset I should favor a reasonably high rate for the first pound, 
 because, after all, that is the measure of the service. 
 
 The Chairman. On a basis of 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It does not matter so very much in the rural 
 service or in any other branch of the service, particularly in the 
 rural service, whether the parcel weighs 1 pound or 2 pounds. In 
 every case you must take the package and carry it safely to its desti- 
 nation and make a proper delivery of it, and in that service, regard- 
 less of the weight, lies the chief expense. 
 
234 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. What is your interpretation of the word " packet," 
 as contained in the Postal Laws and Regulations ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. That is a matter over which there is considerable: 
 controversy. There are opinions of the Attorney General that have 
 settled it to our satisfaction. "We follow the Department of Justice 
 in that regard. 
 
 The Chairman. And it is your position that you are powerless by, 
 rule or regulations to prevent express companies from carrying any 
 parcels or packets they choose? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock:. Providing they are not packets of letters. Even 
 if the law was wrongfully interpreted in those days, it would seem 
 that after the lapse of all these years the Government has so fully 
 committed itself to that theory that it is now quite out of the ques- 
 tion, without new legislation, to make any change in the policy. That 
 is the way I have always looked at it. 
 
 The Chairman. It is up to Congress ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It seems so to me; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. You think that the Government should have the 
 sole privilege of transporting for compensation all packages up to 
 the legal weight limit which would, under an increased parcel-post 
 law, be made mailable? > 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I am inclined to favor the taking over by the 
 Government of all postal business. But I have not come to the point, 
 Senator, of making a definite recommendation, and I might on fur- 
 ther study modify my view. I have not had a chance to give the 
 thought to this parcel-post problem that I wish I could have given it. 
 I have been very busy with other matters all summer, especially mat- 
 ters pertaining to the second-class mail question. Some of these 
 questions are rather new to me, and, as I said, on further considera- 
 tion I might modify my opinions. 
 
 The Chairman. If given the exclusive right, the Government 
 should then give the lowest rates and most efficient service obtainable 
 from any source whatever. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes; I should say that it ought to conduct the 
 service with the highest efficiency possible on a cost basis. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, would M T e have a right to give the Govern^ 
 ment a monopoly if in the establishment of that monopoly we pre- 
 vent a citizen from securing as good service or at as low a cost from a 
 private individual? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I assume, of course, that, the Government could 
 conduct the service at rates that would be no greater than those 
 charged by the private corporations, because the Government expects 
 no profit, whereas the companies doing the business now are doing 
 it for profit. , . ' 
 
 The Chairman. And the Government carries no depreciation 
 charge, carries no insurance charge, does it? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It has many advantages over the private cor- 
 porations when it comes to a matter of expense. 
 
 The Chairman. What advantage occurs to your mind that the 
 private corporations have other than the advantage of advertising 
 and going after business? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. They do that because of the present competition, 
 do thev not? 
 
PABCEL, POST. 235 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; they are competitors of the Government, of 
 course. They go after business. Can the Government go after 
 business ? That is the point I want to bring out. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. If the Government had a monopoly, it would not 
 be necessary, because all the business would then come to the Gov- 
 ernment. 
 
 The Chairman. Of course; but suppose they did not have — sup- 
 pose it was competitive? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. There is no reason why the Government should 
 not go after business; that is to say, there is no legal reason. It 
 is not prohibited in any way. 
 
 The Chairman. As a matter of fact, has it ever been done other 
 than by the issuance of information in the way of pamphlets, pub- 
 licity educational pamphlets? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. The Government has availed itself of the benefits 
 of advertisement in a good many ways, Senator. We do it now for 
 certain services, such as the money order, the registered mail, and 
 the parcel post, so far as we conduct it. 
 
 The Chairman. So on your experience and from your viewpoint, 
 you think the Government has an advantage over any private insti- 
 tution ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Decidedly. 
 
 The Chairman. I mean from a competitive basis, without giving 
 it a monopoly? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. You are speaking now of a condition where the 
 Government would be in competition with the express companies ? 
 
 The Chairman. Absolutely. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. And not have a monopoly ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, the greatest handicap to the Government 
 system would be its rigidity, its lack of flexibility. 
 
 The Chairman. Due to laws? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Due to restrictive laws enacted by Congress. It 
 is necessary to have those laws, of course, but they frequently handi- 
 cap the administrative officers of the Government very greatly in 
 their work. 
 
 The Chairman. More than the by-laws of the ordinary corpora- 
 tion? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Surely. 
 
 The Chairman. General, while my mind is open to conviction, 
 as I feel now I believe that the general welfare of the country, as 
 a whole, would be better served by having competition with the 
 Government than by giving the Government an absolute monopoly. 
 If a private competitor can give better service 'in the way of delivery, 
 transportation at a lower rate than the Government gives, why 
 should not the citizen be entitled to that? The only tenable point 
 that I get on your present tentative position is that, remove the 
 private competitor and you might fail to get the same esprit de 
 corps in the Government. Competition intellectually is a mighty 
 good thing all around, competition in service and quality of service, 
 that is the only competition that I know of. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. That is not borne out in our experience with 
 first-class mail, which has developed to an extraordinary degree, and 
 over that mail we have a complete monopoly. 
 
236 PAKOBL POST. ' 
 
 The Chairman. You do not think that there is any avoidance or 
 evasion of that law, do you? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Not appreciably. One other point occurs to 
 me : If the Government had control of the entire business extending 
 all over the country, it would be possible to organize more perfectly 
 and, therefore, to conduct that business at a lower rate or expense 
 than would be possible if the Government controlled only a portion 
 of it. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not follow you as to how it would be possible 
 to organize more efficiently. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Because there would be a larger volume of busi- 
 ness. 
 
 The Chairman. That does not necessarily follow, assuming the 
 vast amount of business that you have in the service to-day. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. That is a very important factor in the postal 
 service. 
 
 The Chairman. You carry now over 13,000,000,000 pieces of mail 
 a year. If you carried 17,000,000,000 pieces a year, I do not see 
 where your efficiency would be increased in all the volume of busi- 
 ness that you do ; I mean at the start. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It is hardly conceivable that the same propor-i 
 tion of that business would be constantly carried by the Government'. 
 My point is that it would be likely to fluctuate. At certain times 
 the express companies would gain an advantage and diminish the 
 volume of parcel mail that was carried by the Government, and that 
 would be expensive to us because of the fact that we have to main- 
 tain what is practically a fixed standard of equipment. At inter- 
 vals we should lose control of a portion of the business. Do you 
 understand what I mean? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; I catch your idea. Take your parcel post, 
 or fourth-class matter, your assumption is that the volume of busi- 
 ness would be greatest in the thickly populated centers? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Certainly. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, would not you get a much better line of 
 information by taking infinitely greater thickly populated centers in 
 European countries and adding together their territory, so as to make 
 an equal number of square miles, to that in .the United States; and 
 given much greater facilities in the way of weight limits and low 
 prices for parcel post in these European countries, and take the 
 volume of business that the aggregate of those countries handle! 
 Would not that be better and more definite data to go on in the way of 
 what we would have to meet by enlarging the scope in our own 
 country than by putting out 100, or 1,000, or 5,000 inspectors on 
 rural routes or in business centers? Would not we know there, 
 by actual demonstrated experience of years or decades, putting 
 every disadvantage against us and advantage against them for the 
 sake of being on the safe side ? To my mind that is absolutely reli- 
 able and safe. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. But would a knowledge of those conditions help 
 us very much in putting in this service on our rural routes? 
 
 The Chairman. Why not? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. The conditions are so radically different. 
 
 The Chairman. You know what you have to-day, the number of 
 pieces that you carry under the fourth class. We carry more in the 
 
PAHOBL POST. 237 
 
 United States to-day than any other country in the world except 
 Germany. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. If your notion is correct, all we have to do is to 
 obtain precise information from these other countries, and then we 
 are ready to go ahead. Even with that information I should feel like 
 beginning in the way I described. I should want to do it that way ; 
 it is a better method. 
 
 The Chairman. What is your definition of a post route ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. What kind of a post route do you have in mind ? 
 
 The Chairman. That which the law contemplates. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Do you mean in the sense of the organic law ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. That, of course, is a very broad definition. It 
 covers, I should say, any route over which mail was carried by a 
 Government agency. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, there would be no change in law required 
 to enable the Government or the department to adopt an airship 
 service ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I do not think any change would be required. 
 
 The Chairman. General, is the fourth-class mail matter, at the 
 present rate of 1 cent an ounce, carried at a profit or a loss, so far 
 as you know ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. The department estimates that we make some 
 
 firofit on that mail; something between two and three million dol- 
 ars a year, I believe. I do not carry the exact figures in my head, 
 but that is my recollection. 
 
 The Chairman. On a pound basis I understand that the depart- 
 ment figures the cost at less than 12 cents a pound ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I believe the inquiry of 1907 and 1908 showed 
 a cost of 12.3 cents a pound ; am I not correct ? 
 
 The Chairman. A little less than 12 cents. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I think it was 12.3 cents for that class of mail. 
 We had a report made last year for two offices — New York and 
 Chicago. I think I referred to that report in my letter of October 
 5. In that report the cost of transporting and handling that mail 
 was put a good deal lower, in fact, as low as 8 cents, but I was always 
 inclined to think that the earlier figures were more accurate. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I will put it this way : Do you believe the 
 estimates, according to the reports that I have seen, that the cost to 
 the Government is slightly less than 12 cents a pound is a safe 
 estimate? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It may be less than 12 cents a pound. I should 
 think it would be less than it was in 1907-1908, because we have re- 
 duced the cost of handling the mails in the last year or two by 
 increased efficiency. That is clearly shown in our financial state- 
 ments. 
 
 The Chairman. How much have you reduced in the last three 
 years ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. How far that would affect fourth-class matter 
 I am unable to say. • 
 
 The Chairman. But* what reductions have been made in the last 
 three years in the cost to the Government due to increased efficiency ; 
 I mean in the main — that is, roughly ? 
 
238 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. The best measurement of that is the wiping out 
 of the deficit, which was seventeen and a half million dollars two 
 years ago. This year we have a surplus of about $200,000. We have 
 wiped out a loss of seventeen and a half million dollars. 
 
 The Chairman. Increase in gross business without necessitated 
 increase in the cost of operation would account for that, would it not? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. A change in divisor from six days a week to 
 seven days would account for a number of millions, would it not? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes; several. 
 
 The Chairman. "What do you figure that in 1911 the Government 
 a-aved in transportation rates because of the divisor change? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I can not say just what it was for the last fiscal 
 year. The returns from the auditor are just in for that year and 
 there has not been time to compute the amount. 
 
 The Chairman. The greatest reason for the change on the balance 
 sheet from $17,000,000 loss to $200,000 profit is due to the divisor 
 change, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. No ; I should not say so, not by any means. 
 
 The Chairman. In your 1911 estimates, do you take into consid- 
 eration the saving to the Government by carrying certain of the 
 periodicals by fast freight ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. No ; because it was not in effect in that year. 
 
 The Chairman. That is going into effect now ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes ; for the year ending the 30th of June, 1912. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you anticipate a very large saving to the Gov- . 
 ernment on that ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. $4,000,000 a year, or something like that. The 
 saving in the third contract section we estimate at about a million 
 and a half a year. The saving in some of the other contract sections 
 will not be so heavy, especially in the South. I should think it would 
 amount to somewhere in the neighborhood of $4,000,000. annually 
 for the whole country. The saving as the result of the new divisor is 
 several millions, but that is only a small part of the total saving of 
 seventeen and a half millions. ,. v 
 
 The Chairman. My attention was called to the following article, 
 part of which I will here insert in the record, appearing in the Wash- 
 ington Evening Star of August 30, 1911 : 
 
 TRY PARCELS POST — POSTMASTER GENERAL TO EXPERIMENT WITH SYSTEM ON 
 RURAL ROUTES FIRST— HITCHCOCK INVESTIGATES WORKING OF SERVICE ABROAD- 
 GRADUAL EXTENSION PLANNED — AIM IS TO DETERMINE PRACTICABILITY AND PRE- 
 CLUDE DEMORALIZATION OF BUSINESS. 
 
 Parcels post, or a system whereby large parcels of merchandise may be sent 
 through the mails and delivered the same as packets of fourth-class matter 
 nowadays, is going to be one of the features covered by Postmaster General j 
 Hitchcock in the forthcoming annual report. 
 
 But, the Postmaster General is not going to advocate the widespread tailing 
 over into the postal service of the express business of the country. He does not 
 propose by a single provision of law to take into the mails all the parcels up to 
 a given weight which the public might be inclined to send through the mails 
 near or far. 
 
 His plan, according to his statements in an interview to-day, contemplates tie 
 gradual introduction of the parcels-post system, the slow but sure preparation 
 of the postal service and its employees to handle the business within circum- ; 
 scribed limits, and then its gradual extension until the whole country is covered, 
 and it will be as easy to send a parcel by mail to California for delivery as to 
 
PARCEL, POST. 239 
 
 send it to a local merchant or from one resident on n rural-delivery route to 
 another farther along the line. 
 
 The Postmaster General says he has given careful consideration to the whole 
 subject. He has looked into its difficulties as well as into its advantages. He 
 has studied it from the standpoint of present conditions and its limited opera- 
 tion under existing laws and regulations. He has made himself familiar with 
 the operation of that class of service abroad, as well as at home, and he has 
 finally evolved a plan for the postal service of this country which he believes to 
 be reasonable, practicable, and satisfactory. 
 
 General, on September 1, 1911, I addressed you the following 
 letter : 
 
 United States Senate, 
 Washington, D. C, September 1, 1911. 
 Hon. Fkank H. Hitchcock, 
 
 Postmaster General, Washington, D. C. 
 Dear Me. Hitchcock : If you have been correctly quoted in recent press 
 items, it would appear that you have succeeded in procuring information which 
 should be of great value in the prosecution of the inquiry which I have begun 
 under Senate resolution 56. In connection with the parcel post it is stated 
 that you have made yourself familiar with the operation of that class of service 
 abroad, as well as at home, and have finally evolved a plan which you believe 
 to be reasonable, practicable, and satisfactory. I would appreciate it if you 
 would furnish me at the earliest date possible with such data as you may have 
 relative to the workings of the parcel post abroad and state what, if any, con- 
 clusions you have reached, based upon the information in your possession and 
 your experience as a postal administrator, in order that I may have the benefit 
 of your investigations for presentation to the subcommittee when I call them 
 together. 
 
 Tours, very truly, Jonathan Bourne, Jr., Chairman. 
 
 On September 27, 1911, 1 wrote you as follows : 
 
 United States Senate, 
 • Washington, D. C, September 27, 1911. 
 
 Hon. Frank H. Hitchcock, 
 
 Postmaster General, Washington, D. 0. 
 My Dear Me. Hitchcock : Under date of September 1 I wrote you referring 
 to newspaper reports that you had succeeded in securing information which 
 should be of great value in the prosecution of the inquiry authorized by Senate 
 resolution 56 of the present Congress. I asked you to furnish me at the 
 earliest date possible with such data as you may have relative to the workings of 
 the parcel post abroad, and to state what, if any, conclusions, you have reached 
 in order that I may present the same to the committee when I call them together. 
 Under date of September 5 your confidential clerk advised me that you had 
 gone to New York, but that my letter would be brought to your attention as soon 
 as you returned. 
 
 Having had no further response and being anxious to hasten the collection of 
 information on the subject, I wish to request an early reply to my letter of 
 September 1. 
 
 Tours, very truly, Jonathan Bourne, Jr., Chairman. 
 
 On October 16, 1911, I addressed to you this communication : 
 
 United States Senate, 
 Washington, D. C, October 16, 1911. 
 Hon. Frank H. Hitchcock, 
 
 Postmaster General, Washington, D. G. 
 
 My Dear General: Tour valued favor of the 5th acknowledges receipt and 
 
 careful consideration of my letters to you of August 18 and September 1, but 
 
 it gives no information whatever relative to the subject matter of my letter of 
 
 September 1, which had been previously acknowledged, but which has not yet 
 
 , been replied to. 
 
 1 I am anxious to know definitely whether the press correctly quoted you when 
 items were published to the effect that you had succeeded in procuring certain 
 information which, it seemed to me, would be of great value in the prosecution 
 
240 parcrtj post. 
 
 of the inquiry winch I have begun under Senate resolution 56 relative to parcel 
 post. According to these newspaper reports you have made yourself familiar 
 with the operation of that class of service abroad, as well as at home, and 
 have finally evolved a plan which you believe to be reasonable, practicable, and 
 satisfactory. 
 
 In case you have been correctly quoted, I would like to have for the use of 
 the committee at the earliest date possible such data as you have relative to the 
 workings of the parcel post abroad and to learn what conclusions you have 
 reached, based upon the information in your possession and your experience 
 as a postal administrator, as to the concrete bill, which, in your opinion, Con- 
 gress would be justified in enacting. 
 
 Your early reply will be greatly appreciated. 
 
 Yours, very truly, Jonathan Bourne, Jr., 
 
 Chairman. 
 
 1 am to-day in receipt of the following reply : 
 
 Office of the Postmastee General, 
 
 Washington, November 11, 1911. 
 Hon. Jonathan Bourne, Jr., 
 
 Chairman Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads, 
 
 United States Senate. 
 My Dear Senator Bourne : With further reference to your communications 
 of September 1 and 27 and October 16 in regard to parcel post, I beg to inform 
 you that the policy of the department on that subject has been stated in the 
 last annual report of the Postmaster General and in several letters to your com- 
 mittee. The only available data in the possession of the department are the pub- 
 lished reports of certain foreign postal administrations and an inconsiderable 
 number of articles by persons in this country. On the 5th of October last, how- 
 ever, I addressed letters of inquiry to the heads of the postal departments of the 
 various foreign countries that hare parcel-post systems asking for full informa- 
 tion on the subject. 
 
 Yours, very truly, Prank H. Hitchcock. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I do not think I ever saw that letter from you 
 dated September 1. I was not in town at that time.* I was in New 
 York attending the hearings on second-class mail. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, it was acknowledged by your confidential 
 clerk. Regarding the article that appeared in the Washington 
 Evening Star of August 30, 1911, I assume that you were not cor- 
 rectly quoted then? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I did not know that such an article had been 
 written. 
 
 The Chairman. I received your letter to-day of the 11th of No- 
 vember, answering the communications of September 1 and 27 and of 
 October 16. Now, General, would ,you kindly give the committee 
 the benefit of your conclusion in reference to this subject so far as 
 your conclusions may not have been covered by the questions and 
 answers that have been given, if there is any additional viewpoint 
 that occurs to you, I mean? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. There is one statement I should like to make. 
 When I appeared before the Senate committee at the last regular 
 session you will probably recall that I advocated only the plan of 
 having a parcel post on the rural routes. 
 
 The Chairman. And asked for an appropriation for experimenta- 
 tion along those lines? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Asked for an appropriation for that purpose. 
 At that time I had not reached any conclusion in my own mind as 
 to the wisdom of attempting to establish a general parcel post. I 
 felt a good deal of doubt about it, and so expressed myself before; 
 the committee. So far as a general parcel post was concerned, I' 
 
PARCEL, POST. 241 
 
 simply recommended that an investigation be authorized. I asked 
 for an appropriation to bear the expenses of such an investigation. 
 It is since that time that I have come to the conclusion that we 
 ought to move more rapidly in the matter, because of the rapid 
 development of public sentiment in favor of a general parcel post. 
 It seems to me now that there is a much greater reason for taking 
 this subject up promptly. Is not that also your judgment, Senator? 
 It seems to me that public sentiment has developed very rapidly in 
 the last few months in favor of a general parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. There is no doubt about it. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. And I have been influenced by that, of course, 
 and so my views are somewhat different from those I expressed be- 
 fore the Senate committee. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you remember the exact appropriation you 
 asked for then ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. $50,000. 
 
 The Chairman. For the general parcel-post system? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. We asked originally for $100,000 for a general 
 investigation, which was to cover the question of a parcel-post service 
 on the railways and other transportation lines, but it was cut down to 
 $50,000 in the committee, and then dropped out altogether. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, General, if I am not interrupting your train 
 of thought, assuming that you had that $100,000, what would be 
 your process of procedure for your investigation or your ascertain- 
 ment or your decision ? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Well, my notion at the time was to organize a 
 committee of experts and start them on this inquiry. I thought 
 that a great deal of information could be obtained by correspondence, 
 but that in addition to that we should engage the services of expert 
 statisticians and others who were competent to go into a question 
 of this nature. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, what data would they have where you would 
 require the services of a statistician other than the data which we 
 can get from the European countries? I am simply seeking your 
 mental process, as every person has a different method of arriving 
 at the solution of a question. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. It was the purpose to gather information from 
 every possible source; to get information from abroad as well as 
 information respecting the conditions to be met in this country. 
 
 The Chairman. And you estimated that $100,000 might be re- 
 quired to do that? 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I think you said at the time that that would not 
 be enough to make a comprehensive 
 
 The Chairman. No ; I thought of cutting it down to $50,000. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes; that is right. It was Senator Penrose who 
 suggested that it would not be sufficient. I remember now. I was 
 very much disappointed that the committee failed to approve that 
 recommendation, because I thought that we ought to get under way 
 immediately and be ready this winter to make some definite progress 
 toward the solution of this problem. 
 
 The Chairman. And now since I have devoted four month's time 
 almost exclusively to this question I can not see why anything like 
 $50,000 would be required. 
 
 21845— vol 1—12 16 
 
242 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Then, of course, you must be pretty well 
 fled with the information you have acquired. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; I am. This may be egotism, or it may be 
 results. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I do not mean it in that sense. 
 
 The Chairman. No ; I know that you do not. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. I wanted to explain the somewhat radical change 
 in my attitude toward this subject. 
 
 The Chairman. And that is what I want to get. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Even at the opening of the special session I had 
 in view simply the plan of starting in the rural service, but now I 
 think it is important for us to go beyond that. I am ready to com- 
 mit myself now to the prompt introduction of a more general system 
 of parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. Since your position of July 15 ? That was when 
 you sent me the bill. 
 
 Mr. Hitchcock. Yes, sir. 
 
 (Letter of July 15, referred to, and suggested bill sent as an in- 
 closure to that letter follow:) 
 
 Office of the Postmastee General, 
 
 Washington, D. C, July 15, 1911. 
 Hon. Jonathan Bourne, Jr., 
 
 Chairman Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads, 
 
 United States Senate. 
 
 My Dear Senator Bourne : At the last regular session of Congress the sum 
 of $4 000,000 was appropriated to permit the Postmaster General in his dis- 
 cretion to increase the salaries of rural letter carriers from a maximum of 
 $900 to a maximum of $1,000 a year. After giving the matter careful con- 
 sideration I decided to authorize the expenditure of the entire amount appro- 
 priated, thus advancing the salaries of the carriers to the full extent per- 
 mitted by the law. With this marked increase in compensation the carriers can 
 be reasonably expected to perform a larger service than at present, and the time 
 is therefore opportune for Congress to authorize a parcel-post service on rural 
 routes in accordance with the recommendation made in my two annual 
 reports. I inclose herewith a tentative draft of a bill for that purpose, differing 
 only as to the initial date from the provision of law suggested in my last 
 report. The proposed bill has been framed with great care by the depart- 
 ment, and it is hoped you will see your way clear to introduce it in the Senate 
 and to aid as far as you can in securing its passage. 
 
 I am writing a similar letter to Congressman Moon, chairman of the House 
 Committee on the Post Office and Post Roads. 
 
 Tours, very truly, Frank H. Hitchcock., 
 
 A BILL Authorizing a parcel-post service on rural routes. 
 
 Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United 
 States of America in Congress assembled. That for one year, beginning October 
 1, 1911, the Postmaster General may, under such regulations as he shall pre- 
 scribe, authorize postmasters and carriers on such rural routes as he shall 
 select to accept for delivery by carrier on the route on which mailed or on any 
 other route starting at the post office, branch post office, or station which is 
 the distributing point for that route, or for delivery through any post offic?, 
 branch post office, or station on any of the said routes, at such rates of 
 postage as he shall determine, packages not exceeding 11 pounds in weight 
 containing no mail matter of the first class and no matter that is declared 
 by law to be unmailable, and he shall report to Congress the results of this 
 experiment. 
 
 (The committee thereupon adjourned at 4 o'clock p. m.) 
 
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 15, 1911. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), and Senator 
 Joseph L. Bristow. 
 
 The Chairman. In order to economize time, I will ask you, Mr. 
 Meyer, to first reply to the questions asked by the members of the 
 committee, and then we will be glad to have you make a general 
 statement. It will be necessary that you be first sworn. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF HOW. GEORGE VON I. MEYER, SECRETARY OF THE 
 
 NAVY. 
 
 (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age and present posi- 
 tion in the Government service? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Fifty-two years of age; Secretary of the Navy; 
 formerly Postmaster General. 
 
 The Chairman. Please state, as well as you can from memory, the 
 length of time you have been in the service of the Government and 
 enumerate the positions you have occupied. 
 
 Mr. Meyer. About 20 years, I think. I started in the city govern- 
 ment of Boston, and was in that service three years; I was in the 
 legislature five years, being speaker during the last three years of 
 that period ; then chairman of the Paris Exposition Commission ; 
 ambassador to Pome from 1900 to 1905; ambassador to Bussia from 
 1905 to 1907; Postmaster General for the last two years of the ad- 
 ministration of President Eoosevelt ; and Secretary of the Navy since 
 the inauguration of President Taft. After leaving the Massachu- 
 setts Legislature I became Eepublican national committeeman for 
 Massachusetts. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Meyer, have you been an advocate of the 
 parcel-post idea? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Yes; I earnestly advocated it when I was Postmaster 
 General; in fact, I increased the number of postal treaties with 
 various foreign countries, thus enlarging the parcel-post system. 
 
 The Chairman. Under the postal convention ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Yes; under the postal convention. And I strongly 
 advocated that the price charged for domestic parcels should be no 
 more than the price charged for delivery to foreign countries. We 
 were carrying parcels from St. Louis, for example, to cities in Europe 
 and other countries for 12 cents a pound. If destined for New York 
 or any other American city, 16 cents a pound was charged. 
 
 The Chairman. You felt that that was a great injustice to our 
 own people? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. An absolute injustice and discrimination. 
 
 The Chairman. And that condition still exists? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Yes; it still exists. I also advocated that the limit 
 of weight should be increased to our own people, so as to allow them 
 
 243 
 
244 PARCEL POST. 
 
 the privilege of sending as large a package as we permitted to any 
 one residing in this country and shipping to a foreign country. 
 
 The Chairman. And at the same rate ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. And at the same rate, because when a man goes to a 
 post office with a parcel weighing 4 pounds it will go to its destina- 
 tion in this country without hindrance, but if it should weigh 4J 
 pounds it would not be accepted, as would be, the case if addressed 
 to a foreign country. 
 
 The Chairman. From your practical experience in governmental 
 administration, and especially in your administration of the Post 
 Office Department, you saw no difficulty at all in the general adoption 
 of the parcel post in giving to the people of this Government the 
 same privileges, namely, raising the weight limit from 4 pounds to 
 
 11 pounds and decreasing the price from 16 cents a pound down to 
 
 12 cents a pound? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. No ; I thought there was no difficulty in that respect. 
 
 The Chairman. I have before me your report as Postmaster Gen- 
 eral for the year 1907, in which you recommended a special parcel 
 post on rural delivery routes. Do you remember the rates which you 
 advocated for such a post? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Yes; I made an argument on parcel post, I think 
 before the Senate committee, which I believe was printed. That 
 document gives all the information. 
 
 The Chairman. That was a document that Senator Burnham 
 made a public document, and it contains your views on the parcel 
 post on rural routes? 1 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Your views are still the same, are they not? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Yes. My advocacy of the parcel post on rural routes 
 was for this reason : There we had the machinery already in exist- 
 ence, and I thought we ought to utilize it. I saw a method by which 
 for the first time practically the Government was in a position to 
 benefit the small merchant, to encourage consumption, and to enable 
 the patrons on the rural routes — farmers and others — to get the 
 little luxuries of life at a minimum price, by ordering through the 
 postal card or the telephone. I encountered enormous opposition 
 from the mail-order houses and the express companies. A most 
 tremendous and complete organization developed in the cities and 
 here in Washington, which even went so far as to misrepresent the 
 facts and to encourage opposition to a parcel post on the rural routes 
 by informing the people that this was the entering wedge to benefit 
 the mail-order houses. 
 
 The Chairman. All your remarks you have just made in answer 
 to the previous question apply to the establishment or enlargement 
 of the parcel post on the rural routes only? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I think it would be well, Mr. Chairman, if the 
 specific recommendations could be put in the record. 
 
 . The Chairman. That I am coming to now. In that document 
 referred to by you — that is the public document — you recommended 5 
 cents for the first pound, 2 cents for each additional pound up to the 
 
 ■S. Doc. 366, 60th Cong., 1st sess. 
 
PARCEL, POST. 245 
 
 weight limit of 11 pounds, or 25 cents for an 11-pound package. 
 That is correct, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you have considered it practicable to put 
 such a system in operation simultaneously if it had been authorized 
 while you were Postmaster General? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Simultaneously with what? 
 
 The Chairman. Over the whole 40,000 routes on a day specified. 
 
 Mr. Meyer. That is a matter that I could not answer to-day. It is 
 a matter of organization. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, Mr. Secretary, how many rural routes are 
 there? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. I do not know to what extent the rural routes have 
 been increased. 
 
 The Chairman. How many were there, do you remember, when 
 you were at the head of the Post Office Department ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. At the end of my administration there were more 
 than 39,000. 
 
 The Chairman. Assuming, for the sake of illustration, that there 
 were, and are, 40,000 rural routes now in existence in the United 
 States, and assuming that Congress should enact legislation provid- 
 ing for an extension of our present service so that 5 cents woidd be 
 charged for the first pound and 2 cents for each additional pound up 
 to the weight limit of 11 pounds, or 25 cents for an 11-pound pack- 
 age, applicable to the rural routes, how long a period would be re- 
 quired after the enactment of such a law to enable the department, 
 in your judgment, to make its arrangements for a simultaneous adop- 
 tion on every route ; that is, to go into effect the same day on all of 
 the 40,000 routes? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. I should have to answer that question to-day as I 
 would have done had it been put to me at the time I was Postmaster 
 General, and say that that is a matter of arranging and systematizing 
 and getting out your required orders, etc. There is a great deal of 
 detail that would have to be attended to. I should put that up to the 
 Fourth Assistant Postmaster General and ask him to report on it. 
 I could not answer any more than I could when I was advocating the 
 postal savings banks. If they had asked me how long it would have 
 required to put it in, I would have said it will require special investi- 
 gation. 
 
 The Chairman. Taking the rural routes in existence at the time 
 you were at the head of the Post Office Department, did they carry 
 all the business that their equipment and the organization of that 
 branch of the service warranted or could handle? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. No; certainly not. 
 
 The Chairman. What percentage of the average load that they 
 could readily carry with the equipment they had at that time was 
 actually carried or furnished for the volume of business? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. I do not know, but statistics not available then can be 
 obtained now. 
 
 The Chairman. The information that the committee has, I think, 
 justifies me in making the statement that on the 40,000 routes now in 
 existence, with the exception of 100, the equipment could carry four 
 times the volume of business that it now carries. In that event would 
 
246 PARCEL. POST. 
 
 it require any great preparation, other than the notification to the 
 representatives on each route, as to the increase in weight and the 
 postage regulations ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Well, I would not want to give an opinion on that. As 
 I said, if I were Postmaster General I should send for the Fourth 
 Assistant and consult him. It would not be either proper or of any 
 benefit to the committee for me to give my judgment two years and a 
 half after I have left the department. 
 
 The Chairman. I think it would be of benefit to the committee, 
 making a hypothetical condition existing at the time you were Post- 
 master General, or taking the condition that actually existed at 
 that time, as to what your judgment would be regarding the bar- 
 riers and difficulties that would have to be overcome by an instan- 
 taneous adoption. 
 
 Mr. Meter. We felt that whatever barriers might exist could be 
 overcome, but as to the question of an instantaneous application or 
 what time it would take to put it in force, that would have to be 
 considered, because I did not get enough encouragement. I en- 
 deavored to get a law enacted permitting the establishment of an 
 experimental parcel post on rural routes. Our efforts were mainly 
 in the direction of arousing public sentiment and of trying to induce 
 Congress to consider it favorably. 
 
 The Chairman. Who was the Fourth Assistant Postmaster Gen- 
 eral at the time you were at the head of the department ? 
 
 Mr. Meter. Mr. De Graw. 
 
 The Chairman. During the whole period of your service as Post- 
 master General? 
 
 Mr. Meter. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. You would have considered that he, as the head 
 of that bureau under which this particular branch of the service 
 came, was the best obtainable authority for the plan of arranging 
 for the increase ? 
 
 Mr. Meter. If during my administration Congress had authorized 
 such establishment of the parcel post on rural free-delivery routes, 
 in accordance with my custom, I should have undoubtedly appointed 
 a commission, of which the Fourth Assistant would have been either 
 a member or the chairman, to report to me what difficulties, if any, 
 were existing, or how soon it could be established. 
 
 The Chairman. I think, possibly, I have been unfortunate in the 
 selection of my words, " instantaneous adoption." What I mean is 
 the adoption of the system on every route on the same day, with 
 ample period given the department to make its arrangements for the 
 adoption. 
 
 Mr. Meter. I could not give any judgment as to what would be an 
 ample period. 
 
 The Chairman. What questions would come up that the Fourth 
 Assistant and his bureau could not more readily consider than a 
 board, with reference to the extension of the service on that particu- 
 lar branch ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Well, I always believe in working on a problem 
 through groups of men, so as to get special consideration and atten- 
 tion. 
 
 The Chairman. You believe in " teamwork " ? 
 
 Mr. Meter. Yes. 
 
PARCEL POST. 247 
 
 The Chairman. Did you later ask for authority from Congress to 
 experiment with the parcel post on rural routes ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. I did. 
 
 The Chairman. Was your reason for such a request conviction in 
 your mind that it was necessary to make experiments, or was it be- 
 cause you came to the conclusion that that was the best possible step 
 we could get through Congress? 
 
 _ Mr. Meyer. I had three reasons. First, I appreciated the opposi- 
 tion that was being fomented ; secondly, I felt that it was necessary 
 to demonstrate the feasibility of rural parcel post ; and, thirdly, that 
 if it were once started the advantages of it would be so clearly seen 
 that there would be no difficulty in getting it in full operation. 
 
 The Chairman. Was your recommendation for an authority to 
 experiment based upon your own conviction as to the necessity of 
 experimentation before justification in the general adoption of the 
 system on rural routes or from your realization of the opposition to 
 the general adoption on rural routes on the part of Congress, and 
 were you actuated by a hope that Congress might consent ? 
 
 Mr. Meter. I was actuated by a hope that Congress might con- 
 sent to a trial, and it was to overcome the opposition by this method 
 of demonstration. 
 
 The Chairman. What rate did you recommend for a general par- 
 cel post? 
 
 Mr. Meter. I recommended that the rate for the general parcel 
 post be made the same as for the foreign parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. That is 12 cents a pound ? 
 
 Mr. Meter. That is 12 cents a pound. 
 
 The Chairman. For packages weighing less than 1 pound you 
 recommended certain rates starting with 1 ounce for 1 cent; over 1 
 ounce and not exceeding 3 ounces, 2 cents ; over 3 ounces and not ex- 
 ceeding 4 ounces, 3 cents; over 4 ounces and not exceeding 5 ounces, 
 4 cents; over 5 ounces and not exceeding 6 ounces, 5 cents; over 6 
 ounces and not exceeding 8 ounces, 6 cents; over 8 ounces and not 
 exceeding 12 ounces, 9 cents; over 12 ounces and not exceeding 16 
 ounces, 12 cents? 
 
 Mr. Meter. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. This scale or schedule recommended by you was 
 to apply on parcels weighing less than 1 pound in a general parcel 
 post. The rates you recommended on rural routes, I understand, 
 were lower. Was the charge graduated according to weight? 
 
 Mr. Meter. Yes. It was 5 cents for the first pound and 2 cents 
 for each additional pound, but the parcels were to be confined to the 
 route ; that is, they had to originate on the route and be delivered on 
 the route. 
 
 The Chairman. That is under the rural-route system ? 
 
 Mr. Meter. Yes; the object of that was that the mail-order houses 
 should not take advantages. 
 
 The Chairman. Could not? 
 
 Mr. Meter. And could not. The only way they could was to have 
 an established agent on every rural route. Now the mail-order houses 
 claim that the reason they can do their business so low is because they 
 have no agents. 
 
 The Chairman. Because they go direct to the consumer ? 
 
248 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Mr. Meter. Because they, go direct to the consumer. The mail- 
 order house would have had to pay the regular postage rate to deliver:, 
 and the local merchants would have had the advantage of the differ- 
 ence between the general parcel rate and the special rate on rural 
 routes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, Mr. Secretary, independent of that, do 
 you not think that it is a sound business policy for the Government 
 to deliver that package on a rural route, where it costs it practically 
 nothing extra, at a lower rate than it would if it had to transport 
 it over the railroads and pay the transportation ? 
 
 Mr. Meter. Yes ; the reason we asked for a special rate was that 
 there was no railroad haul and no handling in city offices. The 
 original parcel must start on the route and it must remain on that 
 route. 
 
 The Chairman. And it would cost the Government very much less 
 than if it started in Chicago? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Yes; my study of the general parcel-post question 
 brought to my mind this information: That the public have gotten 
 educated to having goods delivered to them at their doors, and I 
 found that the average weight of the parcels on the general parcel 
 post was a fraction of a pound. 
 
 The Chairman. But a little over one-third of a pound? 
 
 Mr. Meter. Yes; between one-third and one-half a pound, if I 
 remember correctly. The reason for it was this : that if the parcels 
 were of that size, they could be put in the satchel of the carrier and 
 delivered at the door. If the parcel was too large for the carrier, 
 the recipient received a notice, and that meant that he must go down 
 to the post office and get his parcel and bring it back again. There- 
 fore it was brought out clearly to me that, as far as a general parcel 
 post was concerned, the whole thing solved itself in the question of 
 when the Government would be in a position to deliver parcels. The 
 rate was not an important factor — it was the delivery. In other 
 words, I realized that even if the rate were reduced from 16 to 12 
 cents, as I still believe it should be in equity and justice to our own 
 people, I did not believe it would increase the carrying to any very 
 great extent by the Government. Therefore, until the Government 
 is given an enormous sum of money in order to have a wagon or 
 an auto delivery, the general parcel post will not be used to any 
 great extent by the public. 
 
 The Chairman. Provided the recipient or addressee has to call at 
 the post office for his package ? 
 
 Mr. Meter. That is it. Therefore, in order to follow out what 
 was feasible, as a result of my investigation, and what was very ad- 
 vantageous to the patrons of the rural routes, I felt we could estabr ■ 
 lish a parcel post on rural routes because that delivery machinery, 
 which is so important to the recipient, or addressee, was in existence. 
 
 The Chairman. And not running at anything like its full peak 
 of efficiency? 
 
 Mr. Meter. That seemed to be the fact. < 
 
 The Chairman. You stated that you found under the general d 
 parcel post that the average weight was between one-third and 
 one-half a pound. Do you mean under the existing fourth-class <il 
 regulation— 4 pounds limit, 1 cent an ounce rate — the average of all 
 
PARCEL POST. 249 
 
 parcels handled in that branch is between one-third and one-half a 
 pound ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Yes ; that is my recollection. 
 
 The Chairman. I have taken the position that we have a general 
 parcel post now — extremely limited — and that our direction is to- 
 ward the enlargement of that service. 
 
 Mr. Meter. That is right. 
 
 The Chairman. That we are not establishing a new service or 
 trying a new thing, but we are simply enlarging the scope of that 
 which we already have in existence. 
 
 Mr. Meter. In other words, we lack the machinery to deliver. 
 
 The Chairman. But we have in existence, as you have so clearly 
 pointed out, the machinery in operation running at 25 per cent of its 
 maximum efficiency, so far as volume in weight is concerned, on the 
 rural routes. 
 
 Mr. Meter. What per cent of its efficiency is utilized I am not pre- 
 pared to say; I feel that it is not entirely utilized. 
 
 The Chairman. The information that we have, as I have stated, 
 justifies me in believing that we could quadruple the weight now 
 carried on the 40,000 routes, with the exception of 100 of those 
 routes, which, due to peculiar conditions, are running probably at 
 full peak now; so that arrangements would have to be made for in- 
 creased service on 100 routes provided the volume of business in- 
 creased, as of course everybody anticipates it would, by enlarging the 
 operation and the scope of the present law. 
 
 Mr. Meter. I was satisfied that we had a machinery that could be 
 utilized to the mutual advantage of the Government, the patrons of 
 the rural routes, and the small stores located in the small towns, 
 thereby facilitating consumption and increasing the comforts of life. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Secretary, have you observed the workings of 
 the parcel-post system in other countries from actual observation 
 and use ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What other countries? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Well, I saw it used to great advantage in Germany 
 and England. 
 
 The Chairman. Russia, too? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. I did not study it in Russia. 
 
 The Chairman. But you made a study in Germany? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Well, I made an observation of it ; I had others make 
 a study of the details. 
 
 The Chairman. Did your observation in Germany and England, 
 your experience as Postmaster General of the United States, and 
 your training as a business man, lead you to believe that a rate lower 
 than 12 cents a pound would be practicable in the United States, or 
 impracticable ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. I am not prepared to say as to that. When I discov- 
 ered that it would require a delivery of parcels in all the cities and 
 towns where we have free delivery, I realized that it was a very large 
 business undertaking, which would require a good deal of investiga- 
 tion in order to ascertain the amount of money required to equip 
 the Post Office Department to deliver parcels over the enormous 
 area, and in the great many free-delivery cities and towns which ex- 
 
250 PAECEL, POST. 
 
 isted in the United States. Therefore I could not answer your 
 question offhand. 
 
 The Chairman. The fourth-class matter, that is all delivered, is it 
 not, to the addressees in cities and towns to-day? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Packages too bulky for delivery by letter carriers, as 
 before stated, are held in the office' and the addressees notified by mail 
 to call for them. 
 
 The Chairman. The United States to-day, under the fourth-class 
 regulations, handles more fourth-class matter or parcels than any 
 other country in the world, excepting Germany. Now, is it your 
 opinion that a careful study and ascertainment of all obtainable facts 
 from foreign countries now enjoying the most elaborate and bene- 
 ficial parcel posts would give us, both the legislative and adminis- 
 trative branches of the Government, information which would war- 
 rant us in taking action, taking into consideration the difference in 
 conditions in those coutries and in the United States? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. It is my judgment that it is such a large undertaking, 
 in order to do it thoroughly, as would be necessary, and on the scale 
 required, that both the administration and Congress would require 
 a thorough study of what was necessary in order to be able to equip 
 the department to carry the enormous business which it would be 
 called upon to transact; that applies to the general parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. But no study would be required in reference to 
 the extension of the service on rural routes, other than the increased 
 facilities on the 100 rural routes now running at the full peak, the 
 preparation of orders giving the information of the increased lati- 
 tude of the service to be sent to the employees on every rural route, 
 with notification of the date upon which the increase in service would 
 take place? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. It was my judgment at the time I was Postmaster 
 General that so far as establishing a special parcel post on rural 
 routes was concerned, it would merely require a study within our 
 own department. 
 
 The Chairman. If we had a general parcel post at one rate and 
 a local rural rate much lower, do you think the business of the 
 country merchant would be injured, and if so, in what respect? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. It was my opinion that it would not be injured. 
 
 The Chairman. Would he not be benefited ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. He would be greatly benefited ; both the consumer and 
 the local merchant. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think the establishment of a parcel post 
 on rural routes would have a tendency to improve the roads? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Yes; I believe it would have a tendency to improve 
 roads, because on certain routes the patrons who would get the 
 deliveries might take part themselves in fixing the roads where they 
 had been neglected and where they were adjoining their property. 
 
 The Chairman. Because it would be to their interest to do so? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Yes ; because it would be to their interest to do so. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you not think that the rural delivery has 
 resulted in great improvement of the highways ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. I think it has resulted in better highways, and it has 
 resulted in improving the value of the farm property generally. B 
 has resulted in increasing the receipts of the post office as well, as it 
 has encouraged correspondence. 
 
PARCEL, POST. 251 
 
 The Chairman. In that connection, I think the Post Office De- 
 partment's reports show an apparent loss on the rural-route system, 
 and in your opinion the indirect benefits, especially in first-class 
 mail matter, would more than offset this apparent loss in the opera- 
 tion of the rural route, which you think the present system of ac- 
 counting is unfair toward, because that branch of the service is 
 charged with all the expenses of operation for that service, and only 
 receives the stamps on the routes? 
 
 Mr. Meter. It is very difficult to figure that problem out in dollars 
 and cents. I felt satisfied that whether it paid for itself in dollars 
 and cents or not, the advantages in other directions were so great 
 to the Nation that the Government and the country would never 
 consider for a moment giving up rural routes. 
 
 The Chairman. How long did it take to establish rural routes 
 from the time that the establishment was authorized by Congress ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. I gave all those figures once in a report to Congress. 
 We spent $14,840 in 1897, the first year, and it took enormous leaps 
 until 1908, when the expenditure was $34,361,463. 
 
 The Chairman. We will have this information inserted in the 
 record. 
 
 (The information referred to, consisting of extracts from annual 
 reports of the Post Office Department, follows:) 
 
 [Postmaster General Wanamaker, 1892.] 
 
 Country free delivery, — A joint resolution of Congress, approved October 1, 
 1890, authorized the Postmaster General to test "at small towns and villages" 
 the practicability and expense of extending the free-delivery system " to offices 
 of the third and fourth class, and other offices not now embraced within the 
 free delivery." The sum of $10,000, to be taken from the amount appropriated 
 for the Free-Delivery Service, was appropriated for the experimental service. 
 The departure was at once successful. The $10,000 appropriated yielded net 
 proceeds of over $3,600, due to the increased business that was caused, and 
 the salaries of the postmasters of the offices experimented with were raised 
 in the aggregate over $1,900. For a similar cause the departure ,w as so popular 
 that, when it was feared that the appropriation might not be continued by 
 the Fifty-second Congress, private arrangements were made by the people in 
 more than one of the affected communities by which the service should be 
 continued, whether or no; but the appropriation of $10,000 was granted and 
 the experiment, it hardly needs to be added, continued to be successful. * * * 
 
 [Postmaster General Bissell, 1893.] 
 
 Rural free delivery. — Although it was provided by Congress in the appropria- 
 tion bill for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1894, that $10,000 should be de- 
 voted, at the discretion of the Postmaster General, to testing the feasibility 
 of establishing a system of free delivery in rural districts, it has been found 
 impossible, by reason of the pressure of more^ important questions, for the 
 officers having that subject in charge to give the subject the study and con- 
 sideration that it demands, much less to establish such rural free delivery. 
 It was soon discovered, furthermore, that the appropriation for this experiment 
 is not at all sufficient for thorough and reliable tests, for in order to give the 
 rural free-delivery system a fair and thorough trial tests would have to be 
 made in many localities, differing necessarily in density of population, topog- 
 raphy, class of interests, and condition of highways and thoroughfares. To 
 inaugurate a system of rural free delivery it would require an appropriation 
 of at least $20,000,000. 
 
 I therefore adopt the opinion of the First Assistant Postmaster General 
 (Frank H. Jones) that the department would not be warranted in burdening 
 the people with such a great expense when it can more properly, adequately, 
 and economically meet the requirements of postal extension by widening its 
 Bcope along reasonable and conservative lines and by establishing additional 
 post offices wherever the communities are justified in asking for them. 
 
252 . PARCEL POST. 
 
 [Postmaster General Blssell, 1894.] 
 
 Congress provided $10,000 to be expended at the discretion of the Postmaster 
 General in testing the feasibility of establishing free delivery in rural dis- 
 tricts. The amount provided for the purpose of this experiment was entirely 
 too small to meet the cost of fair and satisfactory tests, and to have attempted 
 them under such circumstances would have simply resulted in a waste of money. 
 Therefore no tests were made. 
 
 The proposed plan of rural free delivery, If adopted, would result in an addi- 
 tional cost to the people of about $20,000,000 for the first year; and, whatever 
 may be the future postal system of this country, I do not believe the people 
 are yet ready or willing to involve themselves in such a large expenditure for 
 this purpose. Five per cent of this amount expended on reasonable and 
 economical lines in improving the postal system, as it is now organized, would 
 produce more benefit to the people at large than would result from these very 
 expensive extensions. 
 
 [Postmaster General Wilson, 1895.] 
 
 Rural free delivery. — The amount appropriated by Congress ($20,000) to test 
 the feasibility of establishing rural free delivery was not expended during the 
 last fiscal year, the department not being able to devise a plan by which a 
 satisfactory test could be made with this small allowance. 
 
 * •> * a- * * * 
 
 But the difficulties in the way of such experiments and the reasons for viewing 
 the whole plan as impracticable are fully set forth in the report of the House 
 committee on the post office appropriation bill, second session Fifty-third 
 Congress. 
 
 Indeed, the above estimate of $20,000,000 as the cost of such service is merely, 
 continued from previous reports of this department. It is at best but a guess, 
 and there are no data at my command by which to verify it. By many who 
 have looked more carefully into the question than I have had time to do the 
 necessary expenditure has been put at a much larger sum. 
 
 [Postmaster General Wilson, 1896.] 
 
 Free rural delivery. — The cumulative appropriations put at my disposal for 
 the present year for testing the experiments of free delivery have been used to 
 establish the system in special localities in some 30 or more States. It is not prac- 
 ticable as yet to make any report upon the results, as the difficulties in the way 
 of getting the system started and smoothly running were much greater than 
 appear upon the surface. Time is required to familiarize the people with the 
 innovation and to develop its benefits or its failures. Moreover, the thorough 
 working of such a system even in restricted territory will involve some redistri- 
 bution of post offices and some discontinuances, which at this stage of the 
 experiment can not safely be attempted. Care has been taken to choose terri- 
 tory in starting widely divergent in physical features and in the occupations 
 and density of its population. I shall at a later date prepare for the infor- 
 mation of Congress such data as the experience of a limited period may furnish 
 the department. 
 
 [Postmaster General Gary, 1897.] 
 
 In the experimental extension of free delivery to the rural districts some 
 interesting results have been obtained. This service, commenced in October, 
 1896, has been carried on for a year over selected routes in 29 States under 
 such varying conditions as to give the experiment the fairest and fullest test; 
 Congress placed $40,000 at the disposal of the department for this purpose in 
 the fiscal year 1896-97, and provided $50,000 for a continuation of the experiment 
 during the present fiscal year. It would be difficult to point to any like expen- 
 diture of public money which has been more generously appreciated by the 
 people, or which has conferred greater benefits in proportion to the amount 
 expended. 
 
 The Chairman. In your opinion it would also enhance farm 
 values? 
 Mr. Meyer. That has aparently been the result in many districts. 
 
PARCEL POST. 253 
 
 The Chairman. Do you consider that it would help to make 
 country life more attractive? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Undoubtedly, and more satisfactory. One of the 
 arguments that I used was that often the farmer is not in a position 
 to hitch up and go into town to buy even some of the necessaries, 
 and 'frequently he goes without the comforts which he would have 
 obtained had he been able to order by postal card, or otherwise, the 
 purchases that he desired, delivered by parcel post on the rural route. 
 
 The Chairman. And the country merchant would have been the 
 beneficiary ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. He would have been the beneficiary by the establish- 
 ment of a special parcel post delivery on rural routes. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you found a real demand from the Amer- 
 ican people for a parcel post; that is, an extension of our present 
 service ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. There is such a demand and it is growing; but when 
 I was advocating it it was misrepresented by organized agencies and 
 misunderstood, even by the farmers and many of the small store- 
 keepers. 
 
 The Chairman. The protests that came in were similar, in form in 
 many instances, were they not ; showing that there was an organized 
 movement on hand to create public sentiment in opposition to it? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. That is my recollection. 
 
 The Chairman. Did you find a demand for the postal savings 
 banks before they were adopted? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. We had on record in the Post Office Department 
 many letters urging and praying for its establishment. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think that the demand for the postal 
 savings bank was as great as the demand for the extension of our 
 parcel -post system? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Well, I think that at the time the postal savings bank 
 was better understood by the mass of the people. 
 
 The Chairman. Because it was the proposition directly before the 
 country and directly before Congress? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. I think the demand for a general parcel post is 
 much greater at the present time than was the demand for the postal 
 savings bank before the bill for the latter was introduced. 
 
 Mr. Meyer. I noticed in a speech the President made in Michigan 
 that when he mentioned parcel post the enthusiasm was very great, 
 showing that the people are getting aroused as to its value. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I think that among the rural population there is 
 a much stronger interest in the parcel-post legislation than there was 
 in the legislation for postal savings banks. 
 
 Mr. Meyer. I personally did missionary work in the way of 
 speeches and interviews as far west as Wisconsin, I wrote many arti- 
 cles, and furnished material for the magazines. The parcel post was 
 understood as never before, and to-day the people are awakening as to 
 its desirability and advantages from every standpoint. 
 
 The Chairman. Did they feel that a gross injustice is being done 
 them by the delay ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. That is what they said as to the rate ; it does not take 
 much thought to realize that it is an injustice in sending parcels out 
 of the country to charge 12 cents, and to charge 16 cents when 
 delivered in the country. 
 
254 
 
 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Senator Beistow. In that connection, are there any figures which 
 show where the parcels that are sent out by parcel post originate, 
 so that we could determine what distance we transport the bulk of 
 that business within the United States? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. I think there are some figures now ; how complete I 
 do not know. 
 
 The Chairman. What we have are tables showing the amount of 
 parcel post going out of the country, delivered to each country, and 
 Lhe number of packages. We have the tables showing the number 
 received by the United States, each country with its allotment as to 
 the number that are initiated in that country. 
 
 (Table referred to follows:) 
 
 Htutcment showing the number and weight of parcels dispatched to and received, 
 from foreign countries during the fiscal year ended June 30, 1910, and the 
 percentage of increase over the fiscal year ended June 30, 1909} 
 
 Country. 
 
 Dispatched. 
 
 Number. 
 
 Per cent 
 increase. 
 
 Weight. 
 
 Per cent 
 increase. 
 
 Received. 
 
 Number. 
 
 Per cent 
 increase. 
 
 Weight. 
 
 Per cent 
 increase. 
 
 Australia 
 
 Austria 2 
 
 Bahamas 
 
 Barbados 
 
 Belgium 
 
 Bermuda 
 
 Bolivia 
 
 British Guiana 
 
 Chile 
 
 China' 
 
 Colombia 
 
 Costa Rica 
 
 Danish West Indies. 
 
 Denmark 
 
 Dutch Guiana 5 
 
 Ecuador 
 
 France 6 
 
 Germany 
 
 Great Britain and 
 
 Ireland 
 
 Guatemala 
 
 British Honduras . . . 
 Republic of Honduras 
 
 Hongkong 
 
 Italy' 
 
 Jamaica 
 
 Japan 
 
 Leeward Islands 
 
 Mexico 
 
 Netherlands 
 
 Newfoundland 
 
 New Zealand 
 
 Nicaragua 
 
 Norway 
 
 Peru 
 
 Salvador 
 
 Sweden 
 
 Trinidad 
 
 Uruguay 8 
 
 Venezuela 
 
 Windward Islands. . 
 
 Total 
 
 10,812 
 6.834 
 4,157 
 3,405 
 3,520 
 3,445 
 3,606 
 2,084 
 5,435 
 900 
 
 13, 783 
 
 10, 540 
 2,406 
 6,297 
 144 
 4, 186 
 8,571 
 
 55; 796 
 
 138, 739 
 
 5, 3! I!) 
 
 3,291 
 
 4, 965 
 
 2.417 
 
 35,46") 
 
 11,997 
 
 37,777 
 
 2,269 
 
 67,682 
 
 2.S00 
 
 4,712 
 
 6,066 
 
 3,104 
 
 12,764 
 
 5.097 
 
 3,599 
 
 16,890 
 
 2,682 
 
 793 
 
 6,177 
 
 871 
 
 21.62 
 
 217.86 
 
 17.99 
 
 26.82 
 
 17.21 
 
 36. 22 
 
 51.83 
 
 13.75 
 
 27. S2 
 
 100. 00 
 
 15.69 
 
 40.07 
 
 9.11 
 
 23.04 
 
 12.65 
 
 46.51 
 
 7.82 
 
 27. 39 
 
 28. 24 
 13. 63 
 25. 89 
 
 » 28. 57 
 
 87. 03 
 
 6.94 
 
 3.38 
 
 5.19 
 
 »9. 36 
 
 51.11 
 
 17. 68 
 
 10.21 
 
 » .09 
 
 41.77 
 
 32. 26 
 
 9. SB 
 
 23.83 
 
 18.57 
 
 113. 17 
 
 28. 34 
 
 8.33 
 
 Pounds. 
 
 27,290 
 
 15, 813 
 
 9,409 
 
 8,039 
 
 6,928 
 
 6,771 
 
 2S,591 
 
 4,170 
 
 27,272 
 
 2,458 
 
 84,029 
 
 53,086 
 
 5,910 
 
 10,650 
 
 346 
 
 21,547 
 
 12,897 
 
 130, 403 
 
 219,050 
 30, 300 
 
 8,011 
 26,769 
 
 6,217 
 65,814 
 25,466 
 93.432 
 
 6, 444 
 366,808 
 
 5, 79-5 
 
 7,926 
 20, 122 
 15, 185 
 18,020 
 28,304 
 21,977 
 22,668 
 
 6,892 
 
 3,038 
 34,949 
 
 1,915 
 
 44.67 
 
 248. 99 
 
 13.12 
 
 41.07 
 
 36.56 
 
 44.52 
 
 52.72 
 
 11.11 
 
 26.06 
 
 100. 00 
 
 25. 74 
 
 33.54 
 
 4.69 
 
 49.68 
 
 12.01 
 47. 02 
 30.46 
 
 50. 90 
 23.20 
 22. 06 
 27.39 
 8 27.91 
 75. 85 
 15.89 
 24.09 
 12.79 
 18.31 
 94.98 
 12.43 
 18.47 
 
 4.79 
 38.15 
 20.87 
 11.62 
 35. 99 
 20.55 
 125. 87 
 87.01 
 
 8.6S 
 
 2,823 
 
 1,802 
 
 596 
 
 883 
 
 2,034 
 
 1.297 
 
 73 
 
 298 
 
 372 
 
 454 
 
 302 
 
 300 
 
 237 
 
 6,804 
 
 22 
 
 228 
 
 2,336 
 
 102, 349 
 
 94, 286 
 
 129 
 
 265 
 
 SO 
 
 1,356 
 
 13,803 
 
 1,959 
 
 33,742 
 
 412 
 
 16,797 
 
 813 
 
 1.499 
 
 1,066 
 
 44 
 
 9,063 
 
 314 
 
 70 
 
 5,232 
 
 680 
 
 38 
 
 5*i6 
 
 135 
 
 18.16 
 
 472. 06 
 
 10.78 
 
 11.49 
 
 73.55 
 
 22.36 
 
 » 55. 75 
 
 8.36 
 
 14.81 
 
 132. 82 
 
 15.71 
 
 22.04 
 
 28.80 
 
 18.82 
 
 86.88 
 53.28 
 5.91 
 
 24.36 
 
 1.57 
 
 5.95 
 
 « 15. 79 
 
 6.10 
 
 24.12 
 
 8 6.36 
 
 4.96 
 
 12.26 
 
 78.31 
 
 93.11 
 
 23.89 
 
 8 5.83 
 
 18.92 
 
 8 14. 22 
 
 15.87 
 
 40.00 
 
 14.61 
 
 25.18 
 
 l; 166. 66 
 
 372. 58 
 
 8 12.34 
 
 Pounds. 
 
 6,298 
 
 9,899 
 
 1,343 
 
 1,586 
 
 8,079 
 
 2,640 
 
 184 
 
 622 
 
 996 
 
 1,102 
 
 1,036 
 
 1,427 
 
 540 
 
 19,228 
 
 79 
 
 639 
 
 7,710 
 
 682, 718 
 
 370,590 
 
 439 
 
 585 
 
 224 
 
 3,170 
 
 113, 160 
 
 3, 630 
 
 92,000 
 
 920 
 
 61.252 
 
 3,534 
 
 2,447 
 
 3,004 
 
 128 
 
 25,728 
 
 1,012 
 
 276 
 
 15,143 
 
 1,491 
 
 160 
 
 1,021 
 
 311 
 
 521,486 
 
 1,490,718 
 
 305,645 
 
 1,446,357 
 
 29.88 
 482.29 
 
 24.69 
 
 13.44 
 110.56 
 
 22.17 
 8 61.91 
 
 9S.56 
 15.37 
 29.37 
 14.41 
 17.33 
 
 77.01 
 49.10 
 
 18.84 
 
 26.34 
 s 9.67 
 
 22.89 
 
 2.29 
 
 24.61 
 
 45.57 
 
 5.22 
 
 37.68 
 
 14.57 
 
 158.91 
 
 212.09 
 
 25.55 
 
 14.48 
 
 9.40 
 
 35.29 
 
 32.11 
 
 22.66 
 
 37.34 
 
 20.43 
 
 2,271.43 
 
 146.02 
 
 8 7.99 
 
 ' From Report of the Second Assistant Postmaster General, 1910. 
 
 2 Convention ell'ective Jan. 1, 1909. 
 
 8 Decrease. 
 
 * Received through the parcol post service from Hongkong and Japan. 
 
 6 Convention effective Oct. 1, 1909. 
 
 6 Convention effective Aug. 15, 1908. 
 
 7 Convention effective Aug. 1, 1908. 
 
 8 Convention effective J uly 1, 1908. Three parcels received during first year. 
 
PARCEL POST. 255 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think that, under a parcel-post system, the 
 postal rate should be based strictly according to weight, ounce by 
 ounce; or do you think the English system, under which 6 cents is 
 charged for the first pound, and the German system, under which any 
 parcel weighing 11 pounds or under may be carried 10 German or 
 46.1 of our miles for 6 cents or any distance within the country for 12 
 cents, more scientific ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. That is really a matter for study which a board or 
 commission should take up, on account of the great distances we have 
 to transport, and, as the Senator has said, we could get some light 
 on that by seeing what the average distances are. 
 
 The Chairman. Your information obtained must necessarily be 
 simply approximate, based on tables of averages on that particular 
 point. Would not the information that you have from foreign coun- 
 tries, taking into consideration the difference in distances and differ- 
 ence in population, also the difference in railroad facilities and differ- 
 ence in postal facilities, give you an ascertainment upon which you 
 would be justified as a business man in following the experience of 
 other countries ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Take England, for instance; the distances are very 
 short. 
 
 The Chairman. I understand; but when you take into considera- 
 tion that you have Australia, with 400 square miles more than the 
 United States, would not the experience there, including their 
 sparsely settled country and enormous territory, have a bearing on 
 the subject? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. It might; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you can take Germany and Russia. In 
 Russia they have distances that would be analogous to our own dis- 
 tances, with infinitely less facilities than we have at the present time. 
 Germany has the most extensive and scientific parcel-post system to- 
 day in the world, and the most elaborate, as far as the territory cov- 
 ered is concerned. 
 
 Mr. Meyer. We could probably obtain more information from Ger- 
 many than any other country. 
 
 The Chairman. My information is that in Germany there are 
 very few departmental stores^ except in the big cities. Their scope of 
 operation is confined to the city trade, and they have but little country 
 trade, and there has been no appreciable cutting off of country busi- 
 ness because of the departmental stores in the big cities. 
 
 Mr. Meyer. My observations and experience while Postmaster 
 General were these: That unless you first establish a rural free de- 
 livery and demonstrate to the small merchants and the people living 
 on those routes that you can give them a special rate and facilitate 
 the obtaining of their requirements over those routes; that if you try 
 to establish a general parcel post at the same time you are going to 
 run up against enormous difficulties in order to make them realize 
 that they are going to be benefited, for the reason that among all the 
 small merchants throughout the country I found a dread of being 
 ruined by the mail-order houses. You probably saw what the busi- 
 ness of- Sears, Roebuck & Co. was last year ; it was, I think, $33,000,000. 
 Now, then, if you establish your rural free delivery first and demon- 
 
256 PARCEL POST. 
 
 strate that, and at the same time study the methods, I believe a 
 general parcel post will come much easier. . .. 
 
 The Chairman. If you increased the scope of the general parcel 
 post and applied to rural deliveries the same privileges that you 
 give generally at half the price or cost to the residents on rural- 
 delivery routes, would not that be all the demonstration that the 
 country merchant would want? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Well, it did not seem so, for this reason: That the 
 mail-order houses send out these catalogues and make it so attractive 
 that if you put a low rate on the general parcel post they are going 
 to be afraid of it. 
 
 The Chairman. Is not it true that the mail-order house is per- 
 mitted to send out its catalogues under third-class matter, at 8 cents a 
 pound, when the country merchant to-day — if he wants to send 5 
 pounds of stationery — has to put 4 pounds in one package and 1 
 pound in another package and pay 16 cents a pound? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Yes. ; 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the mail-order house can send its catalogues 
 out at 8 cents a pound. If the catalogue is in one volume, it may be 
 5 pounds, and he sends it. The country merchant sends only up to 4 
 pounds any parcel that he wishes to send and has to pay 1 cent an 
 ounce, or 16 cents a pound, on the fourth-class matter. 
 
 Mr. Meyer. It should be remembered, though, that the mail-order 
 house can not send fourth-class matter in excess of 4 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Secretary, with your experience in govern- 
 mental operations, is it your opinion that the Government is best' 
 served solely on a dollar basis — by that I mean whether a govern- 
 mental function is self-supporting or not — or do you think that the 
 general welfare should be taken first into consideration, so that the 
 Government is justified in even carrying at an actual loss? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. That is a pretty broad proposition. 
 
 The Chairman. But it is a proposition that you have to meet in 
 both branches of the Government. In other words, is not the Gov- 
 ernment different from an ordinary business? An ordinary business 
 is operated entirely on the profit basis. Should the Government be 
 operated entirely on a profit basis? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. No; but I think that a department like the Post Office. 
 Department ought to be able to be self-sustaining. 
 
 The Chairman. But not a money-maker ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. No. 
 
 The Chairman. No branch of the Government should be run for ' 
 the purpose of making money in order to defray the expenses of some 
 other branch of the service that can not make money, like the Navjfo 
 Department, the War Department, or the rivers and harbors depart- 1 
 ment. ir; 
 
 Mr. Meyer. That is generally recognized. 
 
 Senator Brtstow. Well, it seems to me that that would depend 
 upon the facilities Ave have of getting money to run the Government. 
 It might be easy under certain circumstances to make a profit. You 
 take the Panama Railroad, for instance ; it is making money handling 
 commercial business. That money is being used for the benefit of the' 
 general public in the construction of facilities on the Isthmus of Pan- 
 ama. I think there are certain circumstances whereby the Govern-" 
 
PARCEL POST. • 257 
 
 ment would be justified in getting a profit out of one part of its 
 service if it could confer a benefit on some other line where it would 
 be of sufficient advantage. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you believe, Senator, in the policy of the 
 Government establishing a monopoly in any branch of its service to 
 make a profit in order to operate some other branch ? 
 
 Senator Beistow. No; I am not in favor of governmental mo- 
 nopoly. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Secretary, were you, when Postmaster Gen- 
 eral, in favor of giving the Government a monopoly of fourth-class 
 mail matter, on the parcel post, either the present or an enlarged 
 parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. In what sense do you use the word " monopoly " ? 
 
 The Chairman. That no private individual could carry "or trans- 
 port, up to the weight adopted by the Government, any of the mate- 
 rial classified by the Government as being available for carriage by 
 the Government? 
 
 Senator Bristow. As being mailable matter? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Do you mean in the sense of applying it to parcels in 
 case the Government took up the delivery of parcels ? 
 
 The Chairman. That no express company or private enterprise 
 could carry that material at any price? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. No. 
 
 The Chairman. You believe in having private competition with 
 the Government in that particular branch of transportation, and 
 that a volume of business that the private competitors might receive 
 must rest on greater efficiency in private enterprise than the Govern- 
 ment could give, or a lower cost to the consumer than the Govern- 
 ment could afford to give? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. I did not believe in the Government prohibiting 
 people doing express business. I believed that the Government should 
 utilize the machinery that it had in existence, and that a proper rate 
 should be fixed and decided upon for parcel delivery. 
 
 The Chairman. And the rate to be based on the actual cost of 
 operation to the Government. In other words ; the desideratum is 
 to reach that point as soon as it can be ascertained, and lower that 
 as the efficiency of the Government increases or the volume of busi- 
 ness decreases the cost per unit of weight ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. I went, as regards the rate on general parcel post, as 
 far as this : That I thought the rate that we charged our own people 
 should not exceed the rate we charged for delivering to addressees in 
 other countries. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you remember any calculation that was made 
 as to the cost to the Government for the carriage of fourth-class 
 matter ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. No; the figures were not available then. Congress 
 has since appropriated money to ascertain the cost of all classes. 
 
 The Chairman. The information that the committee has is that 
 it is a little less than 12 cents a pound ; that is in a report from the 
 department on fourth-class matter. As I am informed, in arriving 
 at that calculation no allowance whatever is made for the indirect 
 increase in first-class matter. 
 
 21845— vol 1—12 17 
 
258 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Meyer. That is an unknown quantity. 
 
 The Chairman. The calculation is based entirely on the revema 
 received direct and the expenses incident to the operation. 
 
 Mr. Meyer. It seems to me that that is all they would be justified 
 in taking into account. 
 
 The Chairman. But there is an indirect benefit in the way oi 
 gross receipts to the Government, because you would not have a 
 large volume of fourth-class matter in the way of packets o.r parcels 
 unless they were probably ordered on notification sent through the 
 first class ; is not that true ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. That is true. 
 
 The Chairman. But in the statement made it is not taken into 
 account that the governmental estimate is that the fourth-class mat- 
 ter is now carried at a trifle less than 12 cents a pound. At the rate 
 you recommended — 12 cents a pound — would you have considered 
 it necessary if Congress had acted on your recommendation to make 
 the change gradually — that is, first at one group of offices and then 
 at another group of offices, and so on ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. That is a detail of administration that I am not in a 
 position to answer at this time. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you would have hesitated at recommending 
 that the change be made throughout the country at one and the same 
 time, no matter how long a period was allowed for preparation ? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Well, as I said, I should have put that up to a com- 
 mission to make a report on. As it is three years since I have studied 
 it, I would not want to give an opinion on that question now. 
 
 The Chairman. In your 1908 report, which I have here before me, 
 you said, referring to the proposed rural parcel post : 
 
 It has been estimated that if every rural carrier delivered 55 pounds each trip, 
 an income of $15,000,000 would be earned in one year. Were the Post Office 
 Department a modern business corporation its board of directors would not 
 hesitate 48 hours to utilize the present machinery and establish a limited local 
 parcel post on rural routes. With such an additional income as has been esti- 
 mated, the department could well afford to increase the equipment where the 
 business demanded it. 
 
 Do you think that in such a case as you have used for illustration 
 this board of directors would want to utilize this machinery all at 
 once on all the routes, or start the machinery on a few routes at a 
 time? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. When I said that they would not hesitate 48 hours I 
 did not mean that they would put it in force in 48 hour?. Now, in 
 establishing it as a business proposition, they would have to study in 
 what way it could best be done, so as to give a successful and efficient 
 service to its patrons. It might be well to establish a certain per- 
 centage at once and then increase it, but that is a matter of detail 
 that would have to be studied by the experts of the department. A 
 railroad company when it starts does not put on all its express trains 
 and accommodation trains instantly. 
 
 The Chairman. But it decides on its policies, and then its adminis- 
 tration carries those policies out just as soon as possible. 
 
 Mr. Meyer. That is what I meant. 
 
 The Chairman. You believe', do you not, that a rural parcel post 
 at the rate you have recommended would make the Rural Delivery 
 Service self-sustaining? 
 
PARCEL POST. 259 
 
 Mr. Meyer. Those were the figures that were given me at the time 
 when the problem was gone into. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any recommendation as to how long 
 a time, approximately, you think would be required for the initia- 
 tion of the service to make that branch self-supporting ? 
 
 Mr. Meter. I should not venture an opinion now. 
 
 The Chairman. Was your desire to be allowed to experiment with 
 the rural parcel post for your own edification or as a demonstra- 
 tion to Congress of the great value of the recommendation that you 
 had made? 
 
 Mr. Meter. A demonstration to Congress and to the country. My 
 own mind was made up. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you anything else, Senator Bristow ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. I think that the Secretary has given us a very 
 clear notion of his views. There is one other question, however, I 
 would like to have Secretary Meyer's judgment on. In my own 
 opinion I think if the general parcel post is established, it ought to 
 be on a zone system. I do not think the Government is justified in 
 carrying merchandise from Boston to San Francisco for the same 
 price per pound that it would from Boston to Springfield, Mass. I 
 do not think it is a sound business proposition. 
 
 Mr. Meter. Not as a business proposition. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And I have in mind a plan by which a mileage 
 zone could be created ; say, so much for transporting it for 50 miles 
 from any post office wherever it is deposited; so much for 100, 200, 
 500, and 1,000 miles. Have you sufficiently in mind the detailed oper- 
 ations of the department to state whether or not you think that is 
 practicable? 
 
 Mr. Meter. No. There was some discussion of it, but there was 
 a sentiment against it, as the postal system had always ben based on 
 one price to all points. If it should be decided to go into the parcel 
 delivery with the additional expense for the delivery of parcels to 
 all cities and on all routes, it would be necessary to appoint an expert 
 board within the Post Office Department or a congressional com- 
 mission to study that question. It was for that reason that I stated 
 earlier in this hearing that I did not believe the general parcel-post 
 system could be adopted in this country without some investigation 
 and study in order to ascertain what was the most practical way, 
 not only to the patrons, but to the Government which was going to 
 perform the service. On the other hand, I felt that the rural free 
 delivery was a very simple problem. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes; I agree with you. That is a very simple 
 matter. The last year I was in the department I recommended to 
 the Postmaster General the rural parcel-post delivery, and I was 
 led to do so because I thought it would increase the revenues from 
 that branch of the service, which was a great burden. 
 
 Mr. Meter. It would undoubtedly increase the revenues greatly 
 and benefit mutually the patrons and the small store men all over 
 the United States, and also increase the consumption of goods. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, with one of those post-route maps which 
 the department has showing the distance between the different post 
 offices, it seems to me that the postmaster can readily tell any post 
 
260 PARCEL POST. 
 
 office which is within a radius of 50 miles, because there it is befon 
 him. 
 
 The Chairman. Assuming that a 50-mile distance is measured in i 
 radius around that post office on the map ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes, sir ; the Government fixes a rate, if it is foi 
 50 miles, and the pastmaster charges it, just the same as he does non 
 if it is a question of other matters. 
 
 Mr. Meyer. He has to ascertain whether it is going somewhere ir 
 this country or to a foreign country? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes ; and extend that to 100 miles and 200 miles, 
 Now, every merchant in the United States would have the same rate 
 for the same distance in supplying his customer with whatever he is 
 asked for; so it seems to me that the local merchant in the small 
 village could not complain, because he has the same opportunity, as 
 far as the Government facilities go. If the Government affords him 
 the same opportunity for the same cost, it seems to me that he can 
 have no complaint and that he could suffer no injury as the result of 
 this new facility. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose, Mr. Secretary, that Congress in the near 
 future enacted a law to go into effect immediately, so that the weight 
 of fourth-class matter could be increased from 4 to 6 pounds and the 
 price remain the same — 1 cent an ounce — do you think that the vol- 
 ume of business would be tremendous at once? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. And the delivery to be the same as it is to-day ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Meyer. My own personal judgment is that it would not. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, suppose that Congress immediately enacted 
 a law decreasing the postage from 1 cent to three-quarters of a cent 
 per ounce? 
 
 Mr. Meyer. On your zone system. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, I think the delivery of the package, the 
 system of delivery, need not necessarily be changed in the enactment 
 of this law. That could be left for future development. 
 
 Mr. Meyer. My study led me to believe that until you begin de- 
 livering all parcels a small increase in the limit of weight of the 
 parcel or a small reduction in the price of the delivery is not going 
 to have a very material effect, except for long hauls. The whole 
 thing turns on the question of delivery, in my judgment. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And that later on could be worked out. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Secretary, we are very glad, indeed, to obtain 
 your views on these questions. 
 
 (The committee thereupon adjourned at 12.30 p. m.) 
 
FRIDAY, DECEMBER 15, 1911. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), and Senator 
 Joseph L. Bristow. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF HON. W. S. SHAlLENBERGEIt, WASHINGTON, D. C. 
 
 (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chaiemak. Will you kindly state, for the information of the 
 committee, your age, residence, and present occupation ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. W. S. Shallenberger ; temporary residence, 
 •Washington, D. C. ; age 72, retired. 
 
 !j The Chairman. Mr. Shallenberger, you were formerly connected 
 with the administrative branch of the Government, were you not? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. I was. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state in what capacity and the 
 length of such service? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. As Second Assistant Postmaster General in 
 the years 1897 to 1907. I had some experience in Congress previous 
 to this- time, serving in the Forty-fifth, Forty-sixth, and the Forty- 
 seventh Congresses as Representative from the twenty-fourth district 
 of Pennsylvania. 
 
 The Chairman. From the experience you have had in official life, 
 and your observations, are you in favor of or against enlarging the 
 scope of our fourth-class mail operation as it now exists ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. I am in favor of enlarging the scope and in- 
 creasing the weight, especially to 11 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you at the same time decrease the postage, 
 or should the enlargement be restricted to increased weight, at first? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. I would decrease the postage rates. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you made any special study of the question 
 of fourth-class mail matter along these particular lines of increasing 
 the weight from 4 pounds to 11 pounds and decreasing the postage, 
 and have you come to any conclusion in your own mind concretely ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. I have made a study incidentally with the 
 ', duties imposed upon me of carrying by mail all parcel post through- 
 out the limits of the country of 11 pounds and under. 
 
 The Chairman. That came directly under your supervision ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. That came directly under my supervision. I 
 have had to arrange parcel-post treaties with a number of countries 
 of the world, principally with Europe, during my incumbency. I 
 took the position, when we came to extend to Europe the facilities 
 that South America and Central America were enjoying of the 11- 
 pound parcels, that our treaties with Europe and with countries that 
 were manufacturing as distinguished from those that were not should 
 be on the basis of 4 pounds 6 ounces, or 2 kilograms, so long as Con- 
 gress declined to enlarge the weight limit in favor of our own mer- 
 chants and manufacturers. 
 
 The Chairman. In our own parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. In our own parcel post, for the reason that 
 Central and South America looked to us for manufactured goods. 
 In reciprocal treaty relations they rarely sent us manufactured 
 goods, hence it was a problem not confronting our domestic mail 
 
 261 
 
262 PABCEL, POST. 
 
 service, but so long as they were able to handle 11-pound parcels we 
 should be willing to grant them that privilege. It was in the direct 
 interests of our merchants and our manufacturers who sold the goods. 
 When we came to establish treaties with Europe the situation was 
 different, our population being largely increased by immigration 
 from Europe; the manufacturing industries of Europe being op- 
 erated at less cost and on a very large scale, our mail service was 
 liable to be flooded with their parcels of larger average weight than 
 our own, and therefore the reciprocal treaty obligations would be in 
 their interest so large that I thought we should limit the weight in 
 order to secure anything like fair and reciprocal relations with the 
 two countries, which weight limit is 4 pounds and 6 ounces. There- 
 fore I secured the reduction of the weight limit then prevailing fo 
 Germany in the test parcel post, the only country in Europe that 
 had been granted even the test of a parcel post. I secured the re- 
 duction to that 4 pounds and 6 ounces in order that we might take up 
 with England, France, and other countries of continental Europe 
 the propositions tending to establish a like treaty with them. As we 
 had then decided that 4 pounds and 6 ounces was as large a limit as 
 we could permit to any other country, of course we were entitled to 
 give to them equal facilities with Germany. Germany conceded that 
 point and so modified the treaty. Since I have been out of the postal 
 service, having resigned in 1907, the weight limit has been increased 
 to 11 pounds m the case of all the parcel post conventions we have 
 had in Europe, so far as I know. Now, in view of that and of the 
 fact that it seems not to have created embarrassment to the postal 
 service, 1 am very strongly in favor of increasing the weight limit 
 of our domestic parcel post to not exceeding 11 pounds. I am more 
 convinced than I was 10 years ago that we can afford to do it from 
 considerations of public service to the people. I have in recent years 
 also studied the question of railroad transportation as related to the 
 postal service and the express service, and have reached the conclu- 
 sion that a different construction of our present laws relating to rail- 
 way carriage of mail might be had permitting us to transport these 
 parcels at a percentage of revenue rather than by weight. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you elaborate just on that point a little, 
 showing the distinction between the present system and what you 
 think would be an improved method. 
 
 Mr. Shallenbebgeb, I would cite from the first official report from 
 the Interstate Commerce Commission for the year ending June 30, 
 1910, which report has been before us since probably July 1 of this 
 year, and which takes up the question of the contracts which the 
 express companies have had for many years with the railroads, and 
 in which we find the basis for those contracts to be a division of reve- 
 nue, and a recent expression by the Interstate Commerce Commission 
 that such compensation to the railways was the only logical payment* 
 They have stated that the former practice of the express companies 
 in charging to operating expense the compensation to railways was 
 illogical for the reason that the railways reported to them directly 
 the operating expenses, and that they should not be included in the 
 reports of the express companies, because in no sense could they be 
 considered the direct operating expenses of the express companies. 
 The express companies simply secured a privilege over railway sys- 
 tems, which amounted to a concession from the railways, that instead 
 
PAKCISL, POST. 263 
 
 of carrying these parcels themselves, which they were entitled to do, 
 they chose, for reasons of economy and for other reasons, to sublet 
 that privilege to a private corporation. In doing so a division of 
 the revenues was logical and proper, because the duties of the express 
 company began in the collecting of this matter, the safeguarding of 
 it to its destination, and the delivery of it at the point of destination, 
 the railway taking up the duty of transportation and relieving the 
 express company entirely from the cost of that in any sense; the 
 roadbed, the rolling stock, all being furnished by the railways. Now, 
 for that particular service the express companies were entitled to a 
 distinct charge, different from the compensation for the privilege of 
 transportation, they not having that to bear. The transportation 
 charge is included in the report of the railways to the Interstate 
 Commerce Commission. On that basis, I said, the postal service is 
 related to the railways just as are the express companies. 
 
 The postal servies does not own the railways nor the roadbeds nor 
 the rolling stock. It asks the railway to be its medium for trans- 
 porting parcels and letters, which by law the postal service is charged 
 with collecting, safeguarding, and delivering, precisely as the express 
 companies under the decision of the Interstate Commerce Commis- 
 sion are doing. In that view of the case, and in view of the law of 
 the postal service, which permits the department only to charge a 
 flat revenue regardless of distance, it should be permitted to make 
 contracts with carrying companies regardless of distances, based on 
 the revenue it receives. 
 
 The Chairman. On the English system they pay 55 per cent of 
 the total amount of the receipts to the railways for transporting, as 
 I understand it. 
 
 Mr. Shaijuenberger. I have offered that as an illustration for my 
 argument. In fact, when I first visited England as an official of the 
 postal service in 1898 I discovered that the English service had a 
 parcel post and a contract for 21 years with railways which made, 
 as the basis of the contract, the compensation to be 55 per cent of the 
 gross revenue received. I also found that they regarded that rate 
 as excessive and were running vans from the central post office in 
 London to the suburbs and to near-by towns at a lower cost than the 
 railways could carry the matter. On a second visit to Europe I 
 found that while that contract could not be abrogated, more and more 
 was the van service being extended to distances of 20 miles and more. 
 
 The Chairman. Because it did not conflict with the contract? 
 
 Mr. Shalijenberger. Because it did not conflict with the contract. 
 That being the principle which had prevailed in the English service, 
 and that agreeing so well with the findings of the Interstate Com- 
 merce Commission, I took the position at the hearings in New York 
 that as I conceived the postal-rate laws they would not conflict with 
 an administrative construction which would regard the rates paid 
 railways as being simply an annual rate for service rendered, the 
 service rendered to be determined by several factors, not alone the 
 weight carried both ways for a period of days and averaged, but serv- 
 ice such as the carriage of all-free matter without any compensa- 
 tion whatever ; the carriage of postal employees and agents without 
 any compensation whatever; the delivery of mail from a large num- 
 ber of post offices within a quarter of a mile from the station with- 
 out compensation; the maintenance of certain speed, not less than 
 
264 PARCEL POST. 
 
 passenger-train speed, and such additional speed as might be re- 
 quired from day to day perhaps; the fact that so many factors en- 
 tered into the character of service that was to be performed; and 
 Congress having determined simply an annual compensation upon 
 the average of the relative weights of the classes, that therefore the 
 postal laws did not require the Post Office Department to do as it 
 had been doing in the last five or six years, making no classification 
 whatever of mail matter and yet having a classification of revenue 
 which is the basis of the contract. I hold that the department has no 
 authority whatever to go beyond Congress in the rates of postage nor 
 in the contract obligations it makes with carrying companies. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think it has any legal right? 
 
 Mr. Shallenbergee. I think it has not. 
 
 The Chairman. Certainly not. 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. Therefore, when the departement is con- 
 fronted with a law which says we decline to raise the rate on second- 
 class matter beyond a cent a pound, we decline to reduce the rate 
 on letters below 32 cents a pound, we fix the rates on merchandise 
 and on third-class matter, and we do it with intent to carry those 
 four classes of mail matter throughout the entire country on flat 
 rates, it puts on the department then an obligation and a duty to see 
 whether, under the law and under its discretionary power, it can 
 not make contracts with carrying companies on that basis. If it 
 can not, then its duty is to go back to Congress and state the facts. 
 I do not see anything in the postal laws and I have heard of no de- 
 cision of the courts that would cause me to change my view. I do 
 not see any reason why the Post Office Department may not take up 
 with the railway companies the question as to whether any consid- 
 eration of the fact that the contract may be construed as granting 
 one-third of the postage rate on letters, one-third of the postage 
 rate on second-class matter, one-third of the postage rate on third- 
 class matter, and one-third of the postage rate on fourth-class matter 
 at an annual compensation, they would not be satisfied, if it can be 
 ascertained that according to the official weighings held within the 
 last four years that particular division of revenue will fully cover 
 the lawful annual compensation. In other words, can the railways 
 deny to the Post Office Department the privilege of construing that 
 contract ; _ is there any law that would deny to an administrative 
 officer, with the large discretion the Postmaster General has, the 
 privilege of construing that contract so as to classify his own mail 
 matter regardless of the fact that it will effectuate these changes in 
 bookkeeping solely and not affect or reduce the pay that railroads 
 lawfully receive from the Government? 
 
 The Chairman. What benefit would the Government receive by 
 that change of bookkeeping, Mr. Shallenberger? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. They would then simply have this principle 
 established, which has been running through the express contract, 
 that when they want to increase the amount of any one class of mail 
 matter it shall be understood that the increase is determined by the 
 revenue and not by weight. 
 
 The Chairman. You make a segregation in classification in 
 your bookkeeping, and the revenue on that classification is your 
 desideratum ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. Yes. 
 
PARCEL POST. 265 
 
 The Chairman. You would have a different service, too ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. Not necessarily. 
 
 The Chaieman. Would it not be advisable ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. It would be and — the question that con- 
 fronted me as Second Assistant Postmaster General, when delivery 
 of mail in the winter season in Alaska was before me, was how to 
 determine the maximum limit of mail for dog sledges that can only 
 carry 200 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. That was your study. 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. That was my study, how to discriminate be- 
 tween the class of mail matter without violating laws apparently and 
 the demand of the public. I had only so much money to make these 
 contracts and they were very expensive. My decision was that we 
 would carry letter mail only during the months when steamers were 
 not running. When I found that our facilities could be doubled I 
 decided to include any first-class mail. I would take separately 
 addressed second-class mail, such as newspapers. There was no pro- 
 test, but I could not see that I had anything but the discretionary 
 authority of the Postmaster General. 
 
 The Chairman. It is necessarily discretionary power delegated to 
 the department so that it may adapt itself to these various conditions 
 that you described in Alaska ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. I claim that it is. The same question was 
 presented to me when the two great railway companies scheduled 
 trains out of New York to Chicago, 18-hour trains 
 
 The Chairman. The Pennsylvania and the New York Central 
 road? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. The Pennsylvania and the New York Central 
 road. They gave me notice that on a certain day they would schedule 
 six trains ; that they would be made up light and would not carry the 
 full baggage car then ; they would not carry any passengers except at 
 increased rates; they were called the limited trains; that I could not 
 expect to carry mails on those trains. Of course, I was required to 
 notify them that the law required every train scheduled to carry mail 
 matter and that no trains could leave New York or any other city 
 without a willingness to carry mail. They said, " You will break it 
 down; the public are interested; they make the laws and call on us 
 to furnish facilities. We will put it up to you." I said, " I do not 
 see that that will be necessary. I will simply say this: 1 will ask 
 those trains to carry nothing but letter mail on the condition that 
 they will carry all the letter mail that is ready when the train starts." 
 
 The Chairman. First-class mail, that is? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. First-class mail ; yes. I said, " Strictly speak- 
 ing, under the construction of law by the department, you are enti- 
 tled to carry all four classes of mail, and in like manner I will as- 
 sume that as all transportation contracts are based on classification, 
 and inasmuch as that principle of classification has prevailed in the 
 international postal service and in our own domestic relations with 
 foreign countries, I will assume that I have a discretionary power to 
 classify, and I will say that I will not break that train down by 
 packing it with magazines, but will send only first-class mail under 
 the condition that no mail shall ever be left, and on the further con- 
 dition that you will have trains scheduled that will carry all matter 
 
266 PABCEL, POST. 
 
 that happens to be left with a speed equal to the greatest speed that 
 you make on any train." 
 
 The Chairman. And the result of that was what ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. The result was that they came to terms 
 gladly. As I remember it, the New York Central finally came and 
 said : " We have looked the matter over and are ready to take any 
 mail you offer." That has led me through all the years to believe that 
 the department really has only to assert its rights to classify mail 
 transportation rates in accord with the revenue, and if Congress con- 
 cludes to increase the revenue on second-class matter — the principle 
 prevails whatever proportion of that revenue is needed to meet the 
 just requirements of contract rates annually — let it be paid. Having 
 that principle established, then we are open to contract for parcel 
 post or anything else. AYe will determine first what a parcel-post 
 rate should be to conform to the needs of the people, to conform to 
 the postal sentiment throughout the world so as to place ourselves on 
 reciprocal relations when we make treaties, and having determined 
 that we will say to the department, as a law-making power, you must 
 make your contracts in accordance with this revenue. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you come to any conclusion in your own 
 mind as to that demand, based on your experience, as to the rates 
 on parcel posts, given an increased limit from 4 pounds to 11 pounds? 
 
 Mr. Shallenbeeger. I have not. I have simply said that under 
 no circumstances should we charge our people as much for trans- 
 porting domestic mail between States as we charge them for mail 
 matter sent to the countries of Europe and throughout the world. 
 There should be a distinction between our parcel-post rate just as 
 there is a distinction in letter rates, giving lower postal rates to our 
 own than we do in the international service. 
 
 The Chairman. If there is any preference we should give it to our 
 own people rather than to the international service. 
 
 Mr. Shallenbeeger. Yes, sir. We have now that anomaly of a 
 parcel of 11 pounds received at San Francisco and transported to 
 Austria for 12 cents a pound, or a fraction of a pound ; while at the 
 same post office the regulations and law prevail which will deny that 
 same patron of the postal service the privilege of sending 11 pounds 
 under any conditions from New York to Chicago. 
 
 The Chairman. Or to Oakland? 
 
 Mr. Shallenbeeger. Or to Oakland. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you made any study as to the substitution 
 of the unit of calculation in railroad transportation for mail as be- 
 tween the pound per mile unit and the linear foot space per mile 
 unit? 
 
 Mr. Shallenbergee. Not to arrive at any satisfactory conclusion 
 in my own mind. The question of space as contrasted with weight 
 for the basic rate has not yet been fully investigated, or at least not 
 fully decided. 
 
 The Chairman. Given the total number of pieces of mail carried 
 in any country and the percentage of pieces of parcel post mailed to 
 the total number of pieces of our mail carried in those countries, do 
 you think that it would be safe to assume that the proportion or per- 
 centage of parcels to the whole number of pieces of mail carried in 
 the United States could be safely studied, inferences drawn and ap- 
 plied, if we enlarge the scope of our fourth-class mail matter in the 
 
PARCEL POST. 267 
 
 United States? To make my question clearer, Ave will say that in 
 the United Kingdom the number of parcels to the total number of 
 pieces handled is 2.3 per cent ; in Germany the number of parcels to 
 the total number of pieces of mail handled, 2.7 per cent; in Austria 
 the number of parcels to the total number of pieces of mail handled, 
 .3.2 per cent; and in the United States now the total number of 
 parcels handled, as represented by fourth-class mail matter, to the 
 total number of pieces of all kind of mail handled is 1.1 per cent. 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. In view of those figures will you just state 
 your question again ? 
 
 The Chairman. The relative percentages of this particular classifi- 
 cation of mail to the total number of pieces of mail in these different 
 countries enjoying a parcel post, would they be of value in our study 
 as to the determination as to what the increase would be relatively, 
 in the United States if we increased the scope of our fourth-class 
 mail matter, but still brought it within the limitations existing within 
 these other countries from which this information has been obtained? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. My experience has been that we could not 
 place very much reliance upon the figures that are collated and pub- 
 lished in that regard, for the reason that scarcely any two countries 
 that I was familiar with had a careful system of reporting. 
 
 The Chairman. Have we in our own country ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. We have not; we have to largely deal with 
 the matter in the form of estimates. 
 
 The Chairman. And averages ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. And averages. 
 
 The Chairman. The same necessitv exists in every country, does 
 it not? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. Yes ; but they do not lay as much stress upon 
 it as we do. For instance, in the three different times I was in 
 "Europe I could not obtain anything like the specific detailed infor- 
 mation from any of their public reports or from any of their officials 
 that we had in our own country, and yet I was not prepared to say 
 that I could regard our own, beyond a reasonable estimate, as being 
 correct. I would say this, that I see no reason whatever, as far as my 
 observation went, to doubt the ability of the American railways and 
 the American postal service to carry as large a percentage of parcels 
 as any foreign service, whatever that may be. 
 
 The Chairman. If the department reserves to itself, or if Congress 
 delegated to it rather, the right to regulate as to whether the parcels 
 were to be delivered to the addressee or to be called for at the post 
 office, that would be a check on any great increase of business that 
 would swamp the service, would it not ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. It would. 
 
 The Chairman. And, in your judgment, based upon your 10 years' 
 experience in the department itself, it would be an absolute check 
 that would enable the department to prevent itself from being flooded 
 and, in case there was a tremendous increase in the volume of the 
 fourth-class mail business, make its preparations to keep up with 
 that increase in the strain upon it ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. It would. I do not think, however, that it 
 would become necessary to avail ourselves of that privilege. I do not 
 see any reason why we could not provide for the delivery of par- 
 cels, in weight under 11 pounds, in any city of the Union. 
 
268 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, given an increase in weight from 4 to 11 
 pounds and a decrease in postage, the law to go into effect 90 days 
 or 6 months after its enactment, there would not be the slightest dif- 
 ficulty of the department, in your opinion, making its preparations 
 and meeting the increased business that would come to it because of 
 such legislation? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. I see no difficulty. 
 
 The Chairman. In your opinion, what would probably be the in- 
 crease in the volume of fourth-class mail matter, given an increase in 
 weight to 11 pounds and a decrease in postage, say, one-third of the 
 present rate on an average — what would be the increase in the vol- 
 ume of that particular classification of postal matter? Would it 
 double, treble, or quadruple, in your opinion ? 
 
 • Mr. Shallenberger. I do not think it would double for the first 
 year or two. I make that statement based on the study of the reports 
 of the department since changes have been made in the weight limit 
 of foreign mail. We increased from 4 to 11 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it not true, though, that, taking a 4-pound limit, 
 the average of parcels is a little over a third of a pound under that 
 limitation, whereas the average weight under an 11-pound limit is 
 about 3^ pounds ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. The countries of Europe are much more 
 thoroughly committed to parcels by mail than this country. 
 
 The Chairman. Because they have greater facilities and are edu- 
 cated to it. They have the opportunity there. 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. Including the express, I doubt if they have 
 the facilities any greater than we have. The increase in the volume 
 of parcel-post mail since the concessions were made in recent years 
 to foreign countries has been against the United States and in favor 
 of foreign countries. You will notice that the importation of parcels 
 from Germany is three or four times the volume and a larger average 
 weight for each parcel. We have three times the distance, at least, 
 over which to carry those parcels, reciprocally, so that the results in 
 the last report of the Postmaster General clearly prove that my be- 
 lief was right that we could not secure a proper reciprocal treaty on 
 that basis until we were ready to avail ourselves in our domestic 
 service of a like weight. 
 
 The Chairman. From the experience that you have had and the 
 study that you have made of the parcel-post question itself par- 
 ticularly, you have come to the conclusion that the present fourth- 
 class mail service should be and can be increased up to an 11-pound 
 weight with a decreased postage from the general welfare standpoint 
 of the county and from the practical standpoint of departmental 
 operation ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. I do ; having refrained from stating just what 
 that rate of postage should be on parcels. 
 
 The Chairman. But it would be a decrease over the present rate. 
 That is a matter for study, ascertainment, conclusion, and adoption. 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. A very substantial decrease in the present 
 rates. I might add that we have in our present rates of postage on 
 fourth-class matter facilities which they have not in foreign countries. 
 
 The Chairman. Rural delivery? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. No; facilities for sending very little parcels 
 of merchandise at very low cost. 
 
PARCEL POST. 269 
 
 The Chaieman. Cost of the unit ; the minimum ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. So that we really have an advantage over other 
 countries. 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. We have a decided advantage on very small 
 merchandise parcels over any country, and up to 4 pounds I would 
 like to have that particular unit maintained. Between 4 pounds and 
 11 pounds I should want to study the situation closely. In all coun- 
 tries that have thus far dealt with parcels they have made the unit 
 large in order that they might get an initial administrative revenue. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, cover the cost of collection and delivery, 
 eliminating the cost of transportation? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. Covering simply the cost of collection and 
 delivery, the cost of transportation being, as the Interstate Com- 
 merce Commission says, substantially little different whether it is 
 a thousand miles or a hundred miles. 
 
 The Chairman. As to its actual cost? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. As to its actual cost. 
 
 The Chairman. But that depends on the contract as to what the 
 actual cost is. 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. It depends on the contract which the Post 
 Office Department might have as to what they should have to pay. 
 I refer to the actual cost to the railways. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a different question. 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. The fact that ' these parcels are picked up 
 from every office on the line of the railroads from the Atlantic to 
 the Pacific and weighed coming and going results in an average dis- 
 tance. The distances on the street car from Chevy Chase to the 
 navy yard at a single rate are large, but the distances from Chevy 
 Chase Circle to the navy yard on the average are short. Therefore 
 we can well afford to ride and the railroads can well afford to carry 
 us at a rate which would be wholly inadequate if we were to consider 
 the distance from Chevy Chase Circle to the navy yard solely and 
 try to make a zone rate. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, are you in favor of the establishment of 
 two or three rates based upon a zone basis ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. I would not be so long as we restrict the 
 weight to 11 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. What percentage of the total cost of collection, 
 transportation, and delivery of mail is, in your opinion, represented 
 by collection and delivery and what by transportation for which the 
 Government pays direct? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. I would say that one-third of the revenue 
 would abundantly pay the transportation charges. I say that to-day 
 we are paying to the railways less than one-third of the gross reve- 
 nues. In 'the year 1910-11 it has not cost the Government over 30 
 per cent of gross revenues. 
 
 The Chairman. I have seen estimates of 25 per cent for rail or 
 outside transportation and estimates of from 75 to 80 for the govern- 
 mental expense incident to collection and distribution. 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. In my testimony in New York I took the 
 reports of the auditor, which were of course easily ascertainable by 
 any schoolboy, and I said to the commission that the Secretary or 
 
270 PARCEL POST. 
 
 anyone could take those reports and ascertain the gross revenue for 
 the last three years and the gross expenditures on railways and they 
 would find that it has been decreasing, as I prophesied a year or more 
 ago it would, so that from 33£ per cent, which I ascertained we had 
 before the reductions in railway transportation had been effectuated, 
 it had been determined to be 30, or a trifle under, of gross revenue, 
 not more than 30J. 
 
 The Chairman. That includes all expense of transportation out- 
 side of the Government itself — the rural delivery, the star-route 
 service, etc.? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. No ; it relates only to railway transportation. 
 We have specific appropriations for what we call railway transporta- 
 tion, and another specific appropriation for Eailway Post-Office Serv- 
 ice. Now, by adding those together in each of the years as a whole 
 and taking the gross revenues in those respective years you will find 
 that it comes to a trifle under 30 per cent. I would say further that 
 when the question comes to be determined by Congress as to whether 
 the total annual compensation paid to railroads has been sufficient 
 for the year that we are now speaking of that question can be solved 
 wholly independent of the principle of the Division of Revenue, be- 
 cause (lie Postmaster General has power to-day to say that instead 
 of paying the railways the full amounts appropriated he will pay 90 
 per cent of those rates. You will find that the present law has 
 changed somewhat the law under which I was required to adjust the 
 rates. Then it was in nearly all cases that the rates Avere to be not 
 to exceed so much per mile per annum. I remarked to Postmaster 
 General Cortelyou, when the question as to whether rates should not 
 be reduced was up, that if Congress in its wisdom decided that if 
 that divisor shall not be changed, as it did in 1907, you would still 
 have the power to effectuate a 10 per cent reduction this very year; 
 your discretion is all that is needed. You say I will simply pay that 
 90 per cent and put it up to them to secure more if they can. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the saving j)er annum to the Government 
 by that change of divisor, General ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. From $5,000,000 to $8,000,000, 1 do not know 
 exactly. As I said to Mr. Cortelyou, whatever was the reason that 
 influenced Congress in adhering to that divisor, there were other 
 ways of administration in the department based on the opinion of 
 the Attorney General himself. Any one can readily see that in the 
 case of small roads that are only carrying six days a week they should 
 not be required to divide that by seven to get an average rate. There 
 were reasons why, perhaps, Congress was justified in refusing to 
 change the divisor, but the Executive on the Monday following the 
 Saturday on which Congress adjourned did by an order change the 
 rate. 
 
 The Chairman. President Roosevent issued the Executive order, 
 did he not? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. Yes. As I said to Secretary Cortelyou: 
 
 To effectuate tile reduction in annual cost that was not necessary. You tiave 
 the power to do it without issuing an order and to any extent that in your 
 judgment, or the judgment of the President, should be necessary. 
 
 The Chairman. In your opinion, based on your practical experi- 
 ence for 10 years as Second Assistant Postmaster General, enactment 
 
PARCEL POST. 271 
 
 of legislation increasing the weight limit of fourth-class mail matter 
 from 4 pounds to 11 pounds and a material decrease in postage would 
 not result in any sudden tremendous increase in the business of 
 fourth-class mail matter; it would be a gradual growth which, ex- 
 tending over a year, would not probably more than double that class 
 of mail as it now exists, as I now understand ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. That is my opinion, if rates were not reduced 
 below the rates named ; for instance, in the Sulzer bill, especially if 
 those rates prevailed with the pound as a unit. Let the present rates 
 continue up to 4 pounds; the parcels then above 4 pounds at a rate 
 of 8 cents a pound or fraction of a pound up to 11 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose the minimum was made 8 ounces and the 
 price for from 1 to 8 ounces was 6 cents and from 8 to 12 ounces 8 
 cents; from 12 to 16 ounces, 12 cents; and then an additional charge 
 of 4 cents for every additional pound or fraction of a pound up to 
 11 pounds, making 50 cents for the 11-pound packages, in your judg- 
 ment, would the volume of fourth-class mail matter under such legis- 
 lation double in a year, or more than double ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. I would scarcely be able to estimate the dif- 
 ference between the effect of that particular postage rate and the rate 
 I have named. 
 
 The Chairman. Then let me ask you this: The prevention of any 
 possibility from overloading the department would be the determi- 
 nation of two main features, one the minimum unit and the other the 
 scope of deliver}', whether to the addressee or call at the post office 
 for the parcel ; those would be two restrictions of which the depart- 
 ment might exercise the latter at its discretion dependent upon the 
 necessity due to the increased volume of business; that would be an 
 absolute check, would it not? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. To some extent. The failure of the depart- 
 ment to deliver at destination would not be as much of a check as 
 might appear to the casual mind. My reason for objecting to a very 
 delicate adjustment of rates to weight and in favor of what would be 
 called the simple unit is this, that in the experience of all foreign 
 countries they find that the difficulty of administration, when it 
 comes to weighing parcels and placing the proper postage upon 
 them, is so much greater when there is a nice distinction as between 
 weights. 
 
 The Chairman. Of course, the greater the simplicity the better. 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. The more the better in the postal service. 
 Therefore, it has been a rule to say parcels of 11 pounds and under. 
 
 The Chairman. Germany allows up to 11 pounds. They can mail 
 at 6 cents anywhere within a zone of 10 German miles and at 12 cents 
 anywhere within the German Empire. 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. But 11 pounds is the minimum weight for 
 postage. In England it was a little different. That leads me to be- 
 lieve that it were better for us if we should have a unit at least 
 3 or 4 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Eather than taking an 8-ounce unit? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. Yes; or a 2-ounce letter. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose you take an 8-ounce unit at 6 cents, any- 
 one who wanted to send an ounce would send it first class for the 2 
 cents, or 2 ounces for 4 cents at first class. They would not all do so, 
 
272 PARCEL POST. 
 
 but I mean that would be the tendency of the individual who i3 
 cognizant of the scope of the different classifications ; but your unit, 
 from your point of view, as I catch it, should be sufficiently high to 
 cover the cost of collection and the final cost of distribution. 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. That should be the aim. 
 
 The Chairman. And its extension on a much lower basis on the 
 theory that the only feature of the extension is the transportation 
 feature representing, according to the figures that you stated, a little 
 less than 30 per cent of the total cost. 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. So that you have a study of 70 per cent on your 
 operation on your minimum and 30 per cent on your operation on the 
 decrease in price and the increased weight. 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. Thirty per cent covering the present ascer- 
 tained per cent of revenue that secures the carriage of all mail, includ- 
 ing the first class. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you made up your mind relative to whether 
 the Government should or should not establish a monopoly of matter 
 carried by mail outside of the first-class mail matter and extended to 
 second, third, or fourth class, or all? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. I venture to say I think in the hearings in 
 New York that by retaining the monoply which we have now on 
 first-class matter as a key to the situation we could secure contracts 
 with railways on the basis of revenue which would antedate. That 
 is, we could construe these present laws as justifying the rates being 
 considered on the basis of revenue, so that they would antedate any 
 express contracts within my knowledge, and therefore be regarded 
 as an exclusive priviledge to that extent, just as the contracts of the 
 express companies with the railways provide that they shall have 
 exclusive privilege of carrying parcels under the contract. It should 
 be subject to the construction that whatever Congress declares to be 
 mail matter shall be conceded by railways as belonging to the postal 
 service and not to the express companies. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you believe in governmental monopoly of all 
 mail matter carried by the postal service? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. And declared to be postal matter by Congress, 
 
 The Chairman. Now, you say on a revenue basis. Do you mean 
 the revenue basis to the railways or the basis of revenue received to 
 the service to the Government appropriating to the transportation 
 cost a certain amount of those gross receipts, like on the English 
 system? Do you mean that you would favor the adoption by the 
 United States of a system similar to the English system in which a 
 percentage of the postal receipts goes to the railroads or that the 
 contract with the transportation companies should be based on the 
 revenue basis of the actual cost to the railroad itself for the trans- 
 portation of the volume of business given to it by the Government? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. I would not, for the present, make any change 
 whatever in our method of paying railways by weight, but would 
 have this understanding with the railroads: That whenever in the 
 judgment of Congress the reports made by the Post Office Depart- 
 ment showed that the aggregate annual pay was larger than such 
 a percentage of revenue, it should be reduced. Whenever it was 
 ascertained, for instance, that the amount of money in the year for 
 
PARCEL POST. 273 
 
 which reports were made paid for transportation by rail was so 
 large that the percentage of revenue applicable to rural delivery, 
 city delivery, and to all other services, when accumulated, failed to 
 come within the revenue provided, then there should be a shading 
 down in the cost of the services so far as possible — all services. I 
 would base the salaries, I would base the City Delivery Service, 1 
 would base the rural service in its actual report on percentage of 
 gross revenue, for the reason that all services rendered by the de- 
 partment must be paid for by the revenue we collect. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you ever worked out an apportionment on 
 that idea ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. I did; I submitted it to the commission. 
 
 The CHArfiMAN. As to the percentages that go to the various 
 branches of the services and that would go to the private interests 
 outside of the service, but cooperating with the service in the matter 
 of transportation? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. I did it at least in divisions of six. My 
 table included salaries of post-office clerks 
 
 The Chairman. I thought there were four divisions in the United 
 States. 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. I am speaking of the service rendered. 
 
 The Chairman. Six divisions ; what do you mean ? 
 
 Mr. , Shallenberger. Transportation pay to railways, including 
 railway post-office pay, cost of the Rural Delivery Service, cost of the 
 Eailway Mail Service, clerks on railways, and all that; cost of the 
 City Delivery Service, cost 
 
 The Chairman. That is all embraced under division 6 ? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. I say those factors, together with miscella- 
 neous expenses, make six in my table, and aggregating the entire ex- 
 penditure of the department. I say that having classified the 
 expenses in that way I found that 30 per cent of the gross revenue 
 was assignable to Railway Mail Service and railway post offices, such 
 a per cent was assignable to rural delivery, such a per cent to city de- 
 livery, and such a per cent to miscellaneous; making 100 to 109 per 
 cent to the expenditures three years ago as to 100 per cent of revenue. 
 
 The Chairman. Showing a deficit? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. Of about 8 per cent. Last year it was wiped 
 out, so that the aggregation would not exceed 100, slightly under it. 
 In that method of determining whether the several services are eco- 
 nomically handled or not you have quite an easy bookkeeping system. 
 
 The Chairman. Your difficulty is in the apportionment of your 
 gross revenues, I mean in your different branches. 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. You apportion revenue to the actual cost of 
 service administered in the most economical way. 
 
 The Chairman. You have different salaries for different grades 
 for your employees? How are you going to make your apportion- 
 ment? Given 30 per cent for your Railway Mail Service, how are 
 you going to apportion that among the employees? 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. I would not, Senator, make that a basis of 
 apportionment. I would take whatever expenditures are deemed 
 wise in that particular service, in any year, and having those expen- 
 ditures and the expenditures in the other service, then I would raise 
 
 21845— vol 1—12 18 
 
274 PARCEL POST. 
 
 the question as to whether there might not be a restriction of one in 
 view of the necessary increase of the other. 
 
 The Chairman. You would have a fluctuation. 
 
 Mr. Shallenberger. You would necessarily have to introduce at 
 different times increased facilities. 
 
 The Chairman. Which would mean increased cost? 
 
 Mr. Shallenbeeger. Which would mean increased cost. 
 
 The Chairman. Which you would expect the increased business 
 incident thereto to ultimately adjust? 
 
 Mr. ShaUxEnbeegeb. You would find that, as was done in recent 
 years, had there been no reduction of rates by Congress until that 
 report was requested, it would have required 33 J per cent -of gross 
 revenues to pay the railways for the transportion of railway post- 
 office business; that was a necessity for having the parcel post ex- 
 tended, for increasing rural delivery where the people demanded it; 
 and how shall we reach that without incurring a deficit? Which of 
 the other services can we reduce in cost ? Then the question would 
 come, Should we initiate ourselves a reduction of railroad transporta- 
 tion, so that in the next year we would find that not less than a cer- 
 tain percentage would have to be paid to the railways ? 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Shallenberger, we are very much obliged to 
 you. 
 
 O 
 
PAECEL POST 
 
 HEARINGS 
 
 BEFORE THE 
 
 SUBCOMMITTEE ON PARCEL POST 
 
 OF THE 
 
 SENATE COMMITTEE ON POST OFFICES 
 AND POST ROADS 
 
 UNDER 
 
 S. RES. 56 
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO. AND REPORT TO THE SENATE AT THE EARLIEST 
 DATE PRACTICABLE WHAT CHANGES ARE NECESSARY OR 
 DESIRABLE IN THE POSTAL SYSTEM OF THE UNITED 
 STATES OR IN LAWS RELATING TO THE POSTAL 
 SERVICE, AND PARTICULARLY WITH REFER- 
 ENCE TO THE ESTABLISHMENT OF 
 A PARCEL POST 
 
 NOVEMBER 27, DECEMBER 1, 2, 7, AND 11, 1911 
 
 VOL. II 
 
 WASHINGTON 
 
 GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
 
 1912 
 
COMMITTEE ON POST OFFICES AND POST ROADS, UNITED STATES 
 
 SENATE. 
 
 Sixty-second Congeess, Second Session. 
 
 JONATHAN BOURNE, Jr., of Oregon, Chairman. 
 
 BOIES PENROSE, of Pennsylvania. WILLIAM LORIMER, of Illinois. 
 
 WINTHROP MURRAY CRANE, of Massa- JOHN H. BANKHEAD, of Alabama, 
 
 chusetts. ROBERT L. TAYLOR, of Tennessee. 
 
 SIMON GUGGENHEIM, of Colorado. ELLISON D. SMITH, of South Carolina. 
 
 FRANK 0. BRIGGS, of New Jersey. CLAUDE A. BWANSON, of Virginia. 
 
 HARRY A. RICHARDSON, of Delaware. NATHAN P. BRYAN, of Florida. 
 
 WILLIAM O. BRADLEY, of Kentucky. JAMES E. MARTINE, of New Jersey. 
 JOSEPH L. BRISTOW, of Kansas. 
 
 A. W. Prescott, Clerk. 
 
 II 
 
TABLE OF CONTENTS. 
 
 [Vol. 2; pages 275-588.] 
 
 1911. Pages. 
 
 Nov. 27. Testimony of Mr. John L. Newbold, president Merchants' Transfer 
 
 & Storage Co., Washington, D. C 275-312 
 
 27. Testimony of Hon. David J. Lewis, House of Representatives 313-403 
 
 Dec. 1. Testimony of Mr. John A. Green, secretary National Association 
 
 of Retail Grocers of the United States, Cleveland, Ohio 404-442 
 
 2. Testimony of Mr. T. J. Fernley, secretary National Hardware 
 
 Association of the United States, Philadelphia, Pa 443-461 
 
 2. Testimony of Mr. Harry B. French, president Smith, Kline & 
 
 French Co., wholesale druggists, Philadelphia, Pa 461-475 
 
 7. Testimony of Mr. George W. Rogers, St. Paul, Minn., representing 
 
 the United Order of Commercial Travelers of America 476-486 
 
 7. Testimony of Mr. R. F. Somerville, Dayton, Ohio, representing the 
 
 United Order of Commercial Travelers of America 487-494 
 
 11. Testimony of Mr. S. Norvell, representing the wholesalers of St. 
 
 Louis, Mo 495-512 
 
 11. Testimony of Mr. J. R. Moorehead, secretary National Federation 
 
 of Retail Merchants, Lexington, Mo 513-530 
 
 11. Testimony of Mr. Douglas Dallam, secretary National Wholesale 
 
 Dry Goods Association, New York, N. Y 531-541 
 
 11. Testimony of Mr. E. B. Moon, secretary American League of Asso- 
 ciations, Chicago, 111 541-588 
 
 m 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 
 Washington, D. C, 
 Monday, November £7, 1911. 
 The subcommittee met at 1.30 o'clock p. m. 
 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), and Senator 
 Nathan P. Bryan. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF ME. JOHN I. NEWBOLD, PRESIDENT OF THE 
 MERCHANTS' TRANSFER & STORAGE CO., WASHINGTON, D. C. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Newbold, it will be necessary that you be 
 sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Please state your age and occupation. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I am 40 years of age. I am president of the Mer- 
 chants' Transfer & Storage Co. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you occupied that position ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Since the organization of the business. 
 
 The Chairman. What year was that ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. In 1900, I think, we organized. We were in busi- 
 ness before that, but we incorporated in 1900 ; I think at that time. 
 I was owner of the business under a different name. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you been yourself in the business ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Twenty-one years. 
 
 The Chairman. Does the Merchants' Transfer & Storage Co. op- 
 erate a parcel delivery service? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. They do. 
 
 The Chairman. How extensive is this service ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. It is a complete service for the District of Columbia. 
 
 The Chairman. It has been in operation, you say, practically 21 
 years ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Twenty-one years. 
 
 The Chairman. What charges are made for delivering parcels? 
 I wish particularly to know whether a charge is made per parcel; 
 and if so, whether it is graduated according to weight, or whether the 
 service is rendered merchants during a stated period ;for a fixed sum. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Our method of operation now is like this: A mer- 
 chant has a certain equipment ; it costs him so much to operate that 
 and maintain it, and we go in and figure his operation cost, his 
 maintenance cost, his capital invested, his depreciation, the proper 
 depreciation that he could take off ; and we then make him a propo- 
 sition to take over that service, giving him equally as good service, 
 if not better, at a certain percentage of reduction. In other words, 
 we figure that we can save him anywhere from 20 to 50 per cent and 
 still make money. It is the concentration; the same principle as 
 when the milkman goes through my block and through your block; 
 
 275 
 
276 PARCEL POST. 
 
 there may be a dozen men go through there, whereas if this business 
 is handled through one system a natural economy results; that can 
 be seen on the face of it. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you a fixed percentage upon which you 
 offer to take over and perform their business as to the estimated cost 
 of their plant and actual cost of operation — is that the basis on 
 which you make your contract? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. That is the basis upon which we make our contracts, 
 figured on the class of business that the man is in. For instance, a 
 man in the shoe business ; if the value of the package is small, and the 
 size of the package is uniform and light and easily handled, that 
 would be a different classification from one that would be in the 
 tailoring business, that had a very much larger package, with a higher 
 value attached to it. We operate a clearing house for packages the 
 same as the banks operate a clearing house for their checks, or the 
 same as the Post Office Department does for mail. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Do you deliver only for business houses here? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Only for business houses. We will take other 
 packages. 
 
 The Chairman. You have no fixed rate by weight ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No fixed charge by weight. We put a limit of 
 weight in the contract. We make a contract. 
 
 The Chairman. By the year ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. By the year, or five years; the limit is a year. It 
 has been a matter of educating the public, the storekeeper, and the 
 merchant public. There is no business from the general public that 
 amounts to anything ; it is only with the shopkeepers. 
 
 The Chairman. About how extensive is your business? In other 
 words, how many firms or stores have you contracts with? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. In the neighborhood of 200; down-town mercantile 
 houses, especially of a retail nature, such as shoes, dry goods, milli- 
 nery, and that class. 
 
 The Chairman. And it is steadily increasing ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. You make all deliveries for those stores or firms 
 that you have contracts with ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We have three-fourths of the merchants of Wash- 
 ington. The other quarter 
 
 The Chairman. You expect to get? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We expect to get, and a few of the larger department 
 stores 
 
 The Chairman. Still do their own ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes ; and smaller establishments that require a more 
 special service. 1 For instance, you take somebody like Ash's, the 
 milliner, where she sells a hat for $50 — she don't sell a great many 
 a day, I imagine — consequently they send them by a special porter, 
 who cleans up around the establishment, and they do not need the 
 delivery service. Take a shoe house, like Hahn's shoe house here in 
 town, they will handle 200 packages a day. They would have to 
 put in quite an equipment to cover the entire town. They could, 
 cover only one section at one time and another section at another 
 time, whereas we cover the town systematically on a regular schedule. 
 We have a system of collections through the down-town section of 
 the city, where all these merchants are. We do not try to catch the 
 little shopman away out Fourteenth Street. That business would not 
 
PARCEL POST. 277 
 
 amount to anything. The town has grown into a habit of requiring 
 quick deliveries of purchases, because the people don't want to be 
 annoyed by carrying the packages home. It has become a modern 
 method. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you a regular printed form of contract that 
 you use? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. I would appreciate it very much if you would 
 
 let « s have a copy of that contract for our information. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I would be very glad to mail you one 
 
 (Form of contract referred to follows:) 
 
 Contracts. 
 
 Merchants' Transfer & Storage Co., parcel-delivery department, 920 and 922 
 L Street JsW .. Washington, D. C, phone (parcel-post department) Main 284. 
 
 .Name, ; address, ; dates, : rate, . 
 
 Ihis agreement made this day of , 19-, by and between the Mer- 
 chants Transfer & Storage Co. (a corporation), doing business in the District 
 of Columbia, and . 
 
 Witnesseth, that the Merchants' Transfer & Storage Co., for and in considera- 
 tion of the payments, promises, and agreements hereinafter made and to be 
 made by and on behalf of the said , will, for the full term of year- 
 beginning on the day of , 19— and ending on the day of - 
 
 19—, cause its wagons to call at the place of business of the said -, No. ,' 
 
 times each day (Sundays and legal holidays excepted), between the 
 
 hours of , , and take all parcels (except special-time deliv- 
 eries and packages on approval), not exceeding a total number of for 
 
 the , any excess to be paid, for at the rate of cents per , and will 
 
 make deliveries times each day to all parts of the city within the lines 
 
 U Street and Florida Avenue on the north, Thirty-sixth Street on the west' 
 
 O Street on the south, Fifteenth Street and Florida Avenue on the east, and - 
 
 each day to such points outside the above limits, as Mount Pleasant, Columbia 
 Heights, Eckington Heights, Washington Heights, Meridian Hill, IngJeside, 
 
 Holmead Manor, etc., and each day to Chevy Chase Loop; and will collect 
 
 C. O. D. bills sent out with the goods and return the money free of charge, 
 provided all such packages bear the company's C. O. D. stamp, and will return 
 refused parcels free of charge. 
 
 And it is agreed that the said , on part, promises and agrees to 
 
 pay for the said service the full sum of dollars, in weekly installments 
 
 of dollars, on Saturday of each and every week during the full term of 
 
 this contract. 
 
 And it is further agreed that no credit will be allowed by the Merchants' 
 
 Transfer & Storage Co. to the said for failure to use the full 
 
 service during any period of this contract. 
 
 And It Is agreed that all packages for delivery in this contract shall not ex- 
 ceed pounds in weight, and shall be securely wrapped and plainly 
 
 marked by the said , giving name, number, and street. In no event 
 
 shall the said Merchants' Transfer & Storage Co. be liable for any loss or 
 damage unless the claim therefor shall be made at the office of the company 
 within 15 days of receipt of said package by the Merchants' Transfer & 
 Storage Co., and said claim must be made in writing; nor in any event shall 
 the Merchants' Transfer & Storage Co. be liable for more than the actual 
 
 cost price to the said — : for the loss or damage of any package embraced 
 
 In this contract. 
 
 It is agreed that the Merchants' Transfer & Storage Co. shall be promptly 
 notified in writing (within a week of receipt of said C. O. D.s) of all outstand- 
 ing C. O. D.s or no responsibility shall be attached thereto. 
 
 It is further agreed that the Merchants' Transfer & Storage Co. shall not 
 he held liable for delay in delivery of goods when such delay is caused by 
 accident, strikes, stoppage of labor, or any cause beyond its control. 
 
 It is agreed that all articles of glass, or contained in glass, or any of a frag- 
 ile nature, will be taken at consignor's risk only. 
 
 It Is further agreed that this contract embraces delivery of only such goods 
 as are now being sold in the departments of the said No. . 
 
b I O JPAJitJJfiii ±>us.r. 
 
 In testimony whereof, witness our hands and seals this day of 
 
 191—. 
 
 Merchants' Tbansfeb & Stobage Co. 
 
 . [SEAL.] 
 
 . [seal.] 
 
 Witnesses : 
 
 The Chairman. Are the parcels handled by your company, on the 
 average, of considerable weight, or are they mostly small parcels? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. They are light parcels. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you give the committee any idea as to the 
 probable average weight of the parcels that you handle ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Why, I should say that we put in a limit of weight 
 practically on every contract of 25 pounds, but the average would 
 run at about 6 or 7 pounds ; maybe not that heavy. A pair of shoes 
 would weigh maybe 3 or 4 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Your limit of weight is 25 pounds ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. The limit of weight that we carry under the ordi- 
 nary contract. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, there is no limit, under your contract, as to 
 the number of parcels handled during the year, is there? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Oh, yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I would like to get that information. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We have two forms of contract — an unlimited and 
 a limited. 
 
 The Chairman. Prices differing, of course? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Prices differing. You take an unlimited form— 
 we make that contract on the best estimate we can make for the 
 man's business, and we want to cultivate him into the habit of send- 
 ing packages. We will take a chance at it, in other words. We will 
 contract at $10 a week, we will say, and hold him to a certain number 
 of packages. It may be that we would have in the neighborhood 
 of 180 packages. 
 
 The Chairman. A week? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes ; we figure at a 6-cent rate. 
 
 The Chairman. Six cents per package? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. It depends upon the class of goods. I can give you 
 the average rate. At the end of the year the man's business has 
 grown, and his records show that we have run, maybe, $25 a week 
 over the contract. 
 
 The Chairman. For which you would receive only $10 a week 
 compensation ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. For which we have lost money. xVt the expiration 
 we would go back to him and get a new contract based on $15 or $20 
 a week; or we would give him a limited contract based on the 
 business of last year. We would make a $15-a-week contract, based 
 on so many deliveries. 
 
 The Chairman. How about the excess deliveries? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Payable at certain excess rates, which is presumahly 
 the same general weight. 
 
 The Chairman. Assuming that you have 200 contracts, what pro- 
 portion of those to-day would be unlimited contracts ? Do you make 
 any unlimited contracts for any longer than a year's period? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
PARCEL BOST. 279 
 
 The Chairman. Your contracts have not in them, as I understand 
 it, over a five-year limit? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We would be willing to make one for 10 years; 5 
 years, however, seems to be reasonable. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose you were asked to make a 10-year con- 
 tract — unlimited — on what basis would you figure your contract ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, it depends upon the size of the store, Senator. 
 If it were a very small establishment, if we were slightly hurt for a 
 period of 10 years it would not have any effect on the business; 
 if it was a very large establishment we would have to be careful. 
 
 The Chairman. The point I wanted to bring out was what your 
 method of procedure would be if you wanted to be on the safe side. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We would not dare make a contract with Woodward 
 & Lothrop with a 10 years' limit unless we would figure in a per- 
 centage that would be paid us for the growth of their business. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the point I want to bring out, what your 
 method of procedure would be. Taking Woodward & Lothrop as 
 an example, has it a percentage that you would figure each year? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. You would have to anticipate the increase of busi- 
 ness in that establishment. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you in your mind any percentage? Would 
 you figure that it would be 10 per cent, 15 per cent, or 20 per cent; 
 or haven't you come to any conclusion in your own mind ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We would not undertake to make an unlimited con- 
 tract with an establishment of the size of Woodward & Lothrop or 
 anything like that size. A limited contract is the proper contract 
 all the way through on a sliding scale for both sides, which we have 
 with one large department store here. We have a contract based 
 on the volume of business that day, and the excess is payable every 
 three months ; and it is either that we pay or that they pay ; that is, 
 if they come under. 
 
 The Chairman. It is an adjustment every quarter? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. It is an adjustment every quarter. 
 
 The Chairman. The contract specifies that ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. The contract specifies that, but limited in this re- 
 spect; that the first price, which is the cost of their operation, less 
 our saving to them, must stand, of course, during the life of that 
 contract. In other words, we give them a price of $500 a week, and 
 if they run in excess of the limited number of packages that they 
 carried in that week they would pay us on the proportionate rate 
 of excess ; if they paid us, we will say, at the end of three months 
 $1,000, and at the end of the following three months they had run 
 under instead of over, we would then refund them from the $1,000. 
 In other words, it is an adjustment every three months which should 
 remain until the end of the year. 
 
 The Chairman. When you make a proposition to a new firm or 
 store, you have to have your representative there to determine the 
 volume of their business, do you ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We take their count ; they keep a record. 
 
 The Chairman. Do they show the exact number of packages that 
 have gone out ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Exactly. 
 
 The Chairman. You base your calculations upon the number of 
 packages during how long a period? 
 
280 PAROEI, POST. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. During one. two, or three years; any way they 
 wish it. 
 
 The Chairman. But they have no information as to the average 
 weight of those packages? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No ; the average weight of packages for the class or 
 sizes we would handle are such as would be — — ■ 
 
 The Chairman. Limited varieties and easily ascertained? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes, sir. In other words, we are a department store 
 delivery in reality, a clearing house for the smaller stores that com- 
 pete with the department stores. 
 
 The Chairman. There is one statement that you make that would 
 be of great value, in my opinion, to the committee, if you are reason- 
 ably sure of the correctness of the statement — that is, as I take it, 
 it is simply a matter of opinion — 3^our maximum delivery is 25 
 pounds in weight, your> average under those contracts is, according 
 to your opinion, 6 or 7 pounds, as I understood you to say a little 
 while ago. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I said that, Senator, but I would not make that as 
 a positive statement that the average weight is 6 or 7 pounds with- 
 out having them take off a scale of that for me. 
 
 The Chairman. That you have never had done? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. That particular information you would not con- 
 sider of any value for your own business? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No, sir; for this reason: The size of a package is 
 much more important to us than the actual weight. A wagon goes 
 out from our establishment and has a carrying capacity in weight of 
 1,000 to 1,500 pounds, and the average weight that wagon will carry 
 will never go up to 1,500 pounds. It is the bulk of the package that 
 takes up the room of the man assorting. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you make any limitation whatever in refer- 
 ence to dimensions? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No further than that we know the class of goods 
 we would get from a certain establishment and make a rate to cover 
 that. 
 
 The Chairman. But there is no limitation in your contract? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No. 
 
 The Chairman. The only limitation is the limitation of weight, 
 maximum at 25 pounds? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you require that merchants wrap the parcels 
 in any particular way, or are they accepted in open boxes, baskets, 
 or other receptacles? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We have a clause in the contract that requires mer- 
 chants to properly wrap packages. 
 
 The Chairman. That is just a general clause, not specific? You 
 don't go into details? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Don't go into details; no. 
 
 .The Chairman. You carry no parcels for the general public; only 
 for your customers with whom you have contracts? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We do ; but we do not solicit that business, and there 
 is very little of it. There is very little demand for. it. We tried 
 that; we tried establishing branch offices all over the city. It was 
 more expensive than any possible return we could get out of it. 
 
PARCEL POST. 281 
 
 The Chairman. Because of the uncertainty of the volume of the 
 business ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Because of the uncertainty of the volume of the 
 business. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the radius of your delivery area, and does 
 it extend beyond the District of Columbia ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes; we have a regular schedule of suburban de- 
 liveries — a printed schedule — which we furnish to every store for 
 which we do suburban delivery. 
 
 The Chairman. Different prices? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No; that schedule extends over the whole terri- 
 tory. We give them a suburban rate that covers the whole territory. 
 We go where the demands seem to carry us. The Washington 
 suburbs are not such as you would find around such cities as New 
 York and Philadelphia. Our roads are so very bad — that is, not the 
 main thoroughfares, but the byroads and the side roads; they are 
 very poor, and the conditions are bad. You will find some houses 
 maybe a couple of miles apart. If they come within the general 
 territory they have to be served as well as anything else. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the general territory? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We go as far as Kensington on the north and Ber- 
 wyn on the 
 
 The Chairman. Does the contract show the limit? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No; the contract does not show the limit. It is ac- 
 cording to our suburban schedule — subject to change. 
 
 The Chairman. Depending on the seasons of the year or existing 
 conditions ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No; subject to our change. The suburban business 
 was found rather difficult to handle. We had to inaugurate that 
 for two reasons : In the first place it was an opening wedge on subur- 
 ban defivery to get into a store's city delivery, to show them that we 
 could handle it and properly handle it, and give them something 
 that was an advantage to them. That was the first object we had in 
 view. Of course, the second object was that we could eventually 
 make money out of it if we could cultivate enough business through 
 the suburbs. 
 
 The Chairman. Has the policy been to enlarge the scope or the 
 radius of your delivery as the volume of your business increased? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Exactly. 
 
 The Chairman. Spread out in territory? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Spread out; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you a copy of your contract here? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No, I have not ; Senator. 1 
 
 The Chairman. In mileage, how many square miles of territory 
 do your present operations extend over ; have you that in mind ? . 
 
 Mr. Newbold. You mean in the city? We cover the entire city. 
 We cover the entire city in our delivery for the merchants three 
 times a day, with one or two exceptions, which are noted in our con- 
 tract. Otherwise we cover the territory completely. 
 
 The Chairman. You say you reserve to yourselves, in your con- 
 tract, the right to amend or change your schedules ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Only our suburban schedules. 
 
 1 See page 277. 
 
282 
 
 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Do the parties with whom you are contracting 
 assent to that, or are they obliged to under the terms of the contract? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, we have never had any trouble about that. 
 Our policy, of course, has always been rather to extend than to cut 
 out ; but we find, for instance, where we are driving 3 or 4 miles out 
 of the way to some houses, at some given point where we seem to 
 have a demand but once and that has died out, we cut that out of 
 our new schedule when it is prepared, which is gotten out about once 
 a year. There is one coming out now from the printers. 
 
 (The schedule referred to, for December, 1911, follows :) 
 
 [December, 1911.] 
 Parcel-Delivery Schedule. 
 
 City deliveries, three daily, 8 a. in., 1 p. m., 5 p. m 
 Goods received at our shipping room until 4.30 p. 
 
 Goods received at onr shipping room 
 
 CITY LIMITS. 
 
 p. m. for last city delivery. 
 
 West to and ou Thirty-sixth Street. 
 
 East to and on Twentieth Street NE. and SE. (exceptions, see note B). 
 
 South to river southeast and southwest (exceptions, see note A). 
 
 North as far as 3500 block northwest, comprising Columbia Heights, Washing- 
 ton Heights, and Mount Pleasant. 
 
 North in Georgetown as far as 1900 block. 
 
 Note A. — City deliveries at 8 a. m. only for all points south of N Street SW. 
 and SE. 
 
 Note B. — City deliveries at 8 a. m. only for all points east of Fifteenth Street 
 to and including Twentieth Street NE. and SE. 
 
 Suburban deliveries. 
 
 [Dclivcrirx to suburban points require our suburban stamp. Positively no package deliv- 
 ered without it.] 
 
 Addison Heights, Va. 
 AltaVista, Md 
 
 Alexandria, Va 
 
 American University 
 Park, D. C. 
 
 Anacostia, D. C .* 
 
 Argyle, D. C 
 
 Arlington, Va 
 
 Asbury Park, D. C... 
 Avalon Heights, D. C 
 Azadia Park, D. C... 
 Balston, Va 
 
 Bashford Road, Va. 
 
 Benning, D. C 
 
 Berwyn, Md 
 
 Bethesda, Md 
 
 Bladensburg, Md 
 
 Brentwood , Md 
 
 Braddock Heights, Va 
 
 Brightwood, D. C — 
 
 Brookland, IX C 
 
 Browns Station, Md . 
 
 Canal Road 
 
 Capital Heights, Md. 
 Central Heights, Md . 
 Chain Bridge, D.C... 
 Cherry dale, Va 
 
 Chesapeake Junction, 
 
 D.C. 
 Chevy Chase, Md., 
 
 South Bradley Lane. 
 Chevy Chase, Md., 
 
 North Bradley Lane. 
 Clarendon, Va 
 
 Time of delivery. 
 8 a. m. daily. 
 
 i 
 
 Time of delivery. 
 
 Cleveland Park 
 
 8 a. m. daily. • 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday, Thursday, 
 
 College Park, Md 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday, Thursday, 
 
 and Saturday. 
 
 
 and Saturday. 
 
 8 a. m. daily. 
 
 Columbia Pike, Va 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 day, and Friday. 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 day, and Friday. 
 
 
 Conduit Road (to Dis- 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday .Thursday, 
 
 8 a. m. daily. 
 
 trict line). 
 
 and Saturday. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Congress Heights.D.C. 
 
 Do. 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 
 Connecticut; Avenue 
 
 8 a. m. daily. 
 
 day, and Friday. 
 
 extended. 
 
 
 Do. 
 
 Del Ray, Va 
 
 Do. 
 
 8 a. m. daily. 
 
 Dominion Heights,Va. 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 day, and Friday. 
 
 Do. 
 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 day, and Friday. 
 8 a. m. Tuesday, Thursday, 
 
 i Drummond, Md 
 
 8 a. rh. Tuesday .Thursday, 
 
 1 . 
 
 and Saturday. 
 
 Diuiwood, D.C 
 
 Do. 
 
 and Saturday. 
 
 East Washing ton 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Heights, D.C. 
 
 
 Do. 
 
 • Edgemont, D.C 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do. 
 
 
 8 a. m. daily. 
 
 S a. m. daily. 
 
 EUnido, Va 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday .Thursday, 
 
 Do. 
 
 
 and Saturday. 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday, Thursday, 
 
 Evansville, Md 
 
 Do. 
 
 and Saturday. 
 
 Falls Church, Va 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 
 S a. m. daily. 
 
 
 day, and Friday. .:, . 
 
 Do. 
 
 Forest Glen, Md 
 
 S a. m. Tuesday .Thursday) 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday, Thursday, 
 
 
 and Saturday. * 
 
 and Saturday. 
 
 Fort Myer, Va 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 dav, and Friday. ■''•':■ 
 
 Do. 
 
 
 Do. 
 
 Foxhall Road, D.C... 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday .Thursday 
 
 Do. 
 
 
 and Saturday. 
 
 8 a. m. Saturday. 
 
 Friendship Heights, 
 
 Do. .'.;: 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 
 Md. 
 
 
 day, and Friday. 
 
 Garfield, D. C 
 
 Do. 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday, Thursday, 
 
 Glen Carlyn, Va 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 day, and Friday. . 
 
 and Saturday. 
 
 
 8 a. m. daily. 
 
 GleuEcho, Md 
 
 8 a. m. Saturday. , 
 
 
 Good Hope, D. C 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday .Thursday, 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 
 
 and Saturday. 
 
 day, and Friday. 
 
 Halls Hill, Va.... 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 day, and Friday. 
 
 Do. 
 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 Suburban deliveries — Continued. 
 
 283 
 
 
 Time of delivery. 
 
 
 Time of delivery. 
 
 Hillsdale, D. C 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday, Thursday 
 
 Randle Highlands, 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday, Thurs- 
 day, and Saturday. 
 
 
 and Saturday. 
 
 D.C. 
 
 Huntingdon Terrace, 
 Md. 
 
 Do. 
 
 
 Do. 
 
 
 Rieves. Md 
 
 8 a. m. daily. 
 
 HyattsviUe, Md 
 
 8 a. m. daily. 
 
 Ridge Road, D. C 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday, Thurs- 
 
 IvyCity.D.C 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday, Thurs- 
 
 
 day, and Saturday. 
 
 
 day, and Saturday. 
 
 Ri verdale, Md 
 
 8 a. m. daily. 
 
 Jewell Station, Va 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 day, and Friday. 
 
 
 8 a.m. Tuesday, Thursday, 
 
 
 
 and Saturday. 
 
 Kenilworth, D. C 
 
 8 a. m .Tuesday, Thursday, 
 and Saturday. 
 
 
 
 
 
 day, and Friday. 
 
 Kensington, Md 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 day, and Friday. 
 
 St. Elizabeths, D.C... 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday, Thursday, 
 
 
 
 and Saturday. 
 
 
 Do. 
 
 St. Elmo, Va 
 
 8 a. m. daily. 
 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday, Ttturs- 
 day, and Saturday. 
 
 
 
 
 and Saturday. 
 
 Lamont, D.C 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 
 Silver Springs, Md 
 
 Do. 
 
 
 day, and Friday. 
 
 Senate Heights, Md . . . 
 
 Do. 
 
 Langdon, D. C 
 
 Livingston Heights, 
 
 
 Sligo, Md'. 
 
 Do. 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 
 Soldiers' Home, D.C. 
 
 8 a. m. daily. 
 
 Va. 
 
 day, and Friday. 
 
 Somerset Heights, 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday, Thursday, 
 
 Lyonhurst, Va 
 
 Linden, Md 
 
 Do. 
 
 Md. 
 
 and Saturdav. 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesdav, Thurs- 
 
 Stotts Castle Heights, 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 
 
 day, and Saturday. 
 
 D. C. 
 
 day, and Friday. 
 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 day, and Friday. 
 
 Takoma Park, D. C. 
 and Md. 
 
 8 a. m. daily. 
 
 
 
 Mount Ida, Va 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesdav, Thurs- 
 
 Termallytown, D.C... 
 
 Do. 
 
 
 day, and Saturday. 
 
 Virginia Highlands, 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday, Thursday, 
 
 Mount Rainier, Md . . . 
 
 8 a. m. daily. 
 
 \a. 
 
 and Saturday. 
 
 North Columbia 
 Heights, D. C. 
 
 Do. 
 
 
 Do. 
 
 Wesley H ights, D.C. 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 
 Northwest Park, Md. . 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesdav, Thurs- 
 
 
 day, and Friday. 
 
 
 day, and Saturday. 
 
 Wesley Park, Md 
 
 Do. 
 
 Observatory Heights. 
 
 8 a. m. daily. 
 
 Williams Station, Md. . 
 
 Do. 
 
 D. C. 
 
 
 Winthrop Heights, 
 
 8 a. m. daily. 
 
 Otterburn, Md 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 
 D.C. 
 
 
 
 day, and Friday. 
 
 Woodburn, D. C 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 
 Palisades, D. C 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday, Thurs- 
 
 
 day, and Friday. 
 
 
 day, and Saturday. 
 
 Woodmont, Md 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday, Thursday, 
 
 Park Lane, Va 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 
 
 and Saturday. 
 
 
 
 Woodridge, D. C 
 
 8 a. m. daily. 
 
 Petworth, D. C 
 
 Do. 
 
 Woodside, Md 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday, Thursday, 
 
 Pierce Mill Road, D.C. 
 
 8 a. m. daily. 
 
 
 and Saturday. 
 
 Pinehurst, D.C 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 day, and Friday. 
 
 Veitch, Va 
 
 8 a. m. Monday, Wednes- 
 
 
 day, and Friday. 
 
 Potomac Heights, D.C. 
 
 8 a. m. Tuesday, Thurs- 
 
 
 
 
 day, and Saturday. 
 
 
 
 For rates and further information apply at office Merchants' Transfer and 
 Storage Co. " We move anything." Parcel delivery department. Phone Main 
 6900. 
 
 The Chairman. You have three daily deliveries in the city? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes, sir; covering the entire city. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you have any Sunday deliveries? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No Sunday deliveries, except at Christmas time. 
 
 The Chairman. How many deliveries do you have in your sub- 
 urban localities? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Once a day, and under those suburban deliveries it 
 is qualified; that is to say, at some points we will go on Tuesdays, 
 Thursdays, and Saturdays, and at others Wednesday and Fridays. 
 It is all listed there. The storekeeper keeps his schedule there, and 
 knows what is coming. 
 
 The Chairman. And the customers become cognizant of that tact, 
 and it creates no irritation at all; it is perfectly satisfactory? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Perfectly satisfactory. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you use horses and wagons for delivery, or 
 automobiles, or both? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Both. 
 
 The Chairman. What proportion? 
 
284 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. The greater proportion of horses and wagons, be- 
 cause we are studying the automobile proposition, and the more we 
 study the more we find that we should go very cautiously with it. 
 
 The Chairman. On November 24 a letter was addressed to you by 
 the clerk of the committee asking that you obtain for the benefit of 
 the committee the following information : The amount of your equip- 
 ment, which should include the value of the same; the number of 
 employees ; the average number of packages handled daily ; the maxi- 
 mum weight of packages you accept; the minimum weight handled, 
 if you have a minimum average weight ; the fluctuation from month 
 to month in your business; the cost of maintenance and operation, 
 including the keep of horses, depreciation in equipment, etc. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I have some general information. I want to say 
 that the parcel delivery part of our business is only a feature of that 
 business. We do general transportation, furniture storage, fireproof 
 warehouse business, etc. 
 
 The Chairman. But that is a distinct branch of your business, the 
 parcel delivery? 
 
 Mr. Xewbold. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you the information in shape to submit to 
 the committee? 
 
 Mr. Xewbotj). I have general information of it. I would not 
 certify that it is correct. I went over it with the manager. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that in written form? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. It is not in written form. I just made memoranda 
 of it. This is the first information asked for in your letter: " It is 
 desired that you give such information as you have regarding the 
 probable cost of a local collection and delivery system, it being as- 
 sumed that with your experience in a somewhat similar business you 
 would be able to give definite information." Well, of course it is 
 the method of keeping your costs. You can make figures to show 
 anything. Senator, you know. Our estimate is that the probable cost 
 of an outfit would be $150 per month. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, you mean one team? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Consisting of what? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, they vary. Some wagons we will make three 
 changes in a day. It depends 'upon how hard the route is. That 
 is, in- other words, change the horse three times a day. In another 
 one we will only have two changes; make two trips with one and 
 then get a change. Our heaviest trip, as a general rule, is the last 
 trip, but sometimes the second trip is the heaviest, or the third one. 
 The business always fluctuates. You have to know the business and 
 have some one who understands it thoroughly and keeps track of 
 conditions. Seasons are also changing all the time; to-day it will 
 be heavy and to-morrow it will be light. Our average cost we esti- 
 mate would be $150. 
 
 The Chairman. In that estimate do you include the interest on 
 the purchase of the vehicle and of the horse, and deterioration and 
 keep, and salary of the employee who operates it ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes ; we include all. 
 
 The Chairman. What would be the weight per diem for a team of 
 that nature; that is, its capacity in weight; in other words,, how 
 many pounds of packages per diem would you feel that that team 
 could handle within your zone of operations? 
 
PARCEL POST. 285 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I do not want to give you a lot of misleading in- 
 formation now, because there is lots of it on this subject. The 
 regularity, if you could always figure that. It is like a street car; 
 that car could go by the door there and carry 30 or 40 people, maybe, 
 but often it has only one or two in it, and what your capacity is 
 
 and what you may carry on an average 
 
 The Chairman. Are two entirely different things. What I want 
 to ascertain is what is a team's capacity. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, the weight would not cut any figure on the 
 class of goods that we handle for retail merchants. 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, how many packages and of 
 what average weight would one of those teams be able to handle per 
 diem? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. On three trips a day, with an expert delivery man 
 and his assistant, they could get rid of 375 packages, if they came 
 even on the trips — about 125 to a trip. They might carry more 
 than that. 
 
 The Chairman. That is in the city delivery? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes; but they could not maintain that; that is, 
 the man would give out. He might keep it up for a week, maybe 
 for a couple of weeks in the busy season, but he would have to have 
 relief on that route. We would have to put in what we call a " split" 
 on his route. 
 
 The Chairman. What could he handle without militating against 
 himself, 100 packages a delivery? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. The trouble would be that the}^ never run even, 
 Senator. You can not make packages run even 100 on a trip. In 
 the first place, he may have 50 on the first trip, and then if he had 
 to catch up his average on the volume from the next two trips, they 
 would be just as hard on him. He might catch a heavier average. 
 
 Senator Bryan. But he assumes that he has his full capacity each 
 delivery. What could he deliver if he had the packages ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I should say 225 packages. 
 
 The Chairman. In a day? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Three trips, with a first-class deliveryman. That 
 is one of our greatest troubles — to maintain first-class deliverymen. 
 They have to be young and active and know to route in the quickest 
 possible time. 
 
 The Chairman. In weight they could handle up to 1,500 pounds a 
 day, 500 pounds a delivery? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes; we could handle a higher weight than that. 
 
 The Chairman. How high? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. If you had 10 pounds as an average and 75 pack- 
 ages, you would have 750 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. But you could handle up to 2,000 or 2,500 pounds 
 a dav? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Three thousand pounds, as far as the weight goes. 
 
 The Chairman. What would be the probable cost of your vehicle 
 and horses for a conveyance of that nature other than automobiles? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. You mean for the vehicle itself ? 
 
 The Chairman. The cost of the vehicle and the horses. Would 
 you have one or two horses? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Sometimes two and th'-ee; never less than two. 
 
286 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. What would be the cost of your plant — that is, 
 that particular conveyance? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We pay from $200 to $250 for a horse and we pay 
 from $40 to $50 for a set of harness and we pay in the neighborhood 
 of $200 to $275 for a wagon. 
 
 The Chairman. There is no difficulty in getting them, if the busi- 
 ness warrants, is there? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No trouble in getting them, but you must always 
 bear in mind that when delivery is made with horses you have to 
 have horses that are acclimated and are gradually seasoned to the 
 work. You take a green horse, sound, and bring him in on the hard 
 city streets — if he is hammered over those streets at the rate the 
 ordinary driver will handle them it is pretty severe on him. So that 
 you have to be very careful how you put green horses into the 
 delivery. 
 
 The Chairman. Do your drivers give receipts for all packages 
 they get ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No; they give very few receipts. 
 
 Tht Chairman. Have you had any complaints as to the loss or 
 injury to packages in transit? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I would like to qualify that first statement. Wc 
 never give receipts. We take a signature on some few classes of 
 packages. 
 
 The Chairman. From the point of initiation or at the point of 
 delivery ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I mean at the point of delivery. I am referring to 
 the delivery entirely. We always give receipts for the collection of 
 packages, but those are collected from a different wagon. We have a 
 system of collection rotating all the time. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you explain that system ; that is very in- 
 teresting. 
 . Mr. Newbold. We have a system of collecting wagons that call at 
 the stores at certain given times — that is, between certain hours. 
 
 The Chairman. They bring the goods to some central point? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. They collect the packages and route them as they 
 are collected, except at very large stores; there they are routed in 
 the shipping room and come to us in baskets for our particular routes. 
 Take a store like Goldenberg's, from which we have in the neigh- 
 borhood of half a million packages a year ; they rim a shipping room 
 there ; our shipping clerk is their shipping clerk. 
 
 The Chairman. How many packages do you receive in a day? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. The average will run from 5,000 to 10,000. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the greatest number of packages you 
 •haA r e handled in a day? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I should say 10,000 would be the maximum, and 
 the minimum will go considerably down below that, so that when I 
 say the average is from 5,000 to 10,000 I imagine that I am high. 
 They run down as low as 2,500 or 3,000 sometimes. It depends upon 
 the season of the year. There are great fluctuations in the seasons. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly take a package at a store, and 
 explain to the committee the method of procedure in handling that 
 package, following it up to the time of its delivery? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. A collection wagon calls at a given time. There is 
 usually a latitude of about half an hour, or say between 10 and 11 
 
PARCEL POST. 287 
 
 or 11 and 12. The packages are noted on a receipt book that we 
 leave with the store. They are signed for by the driver, and brought 
 into our clearing house. 
 
 The Chairman. In that connection, what is that, a depot or a 
 storeroom ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes; a depot. It is there routed to the section 
 where it would go. It goes from there to the delivery wagon and 
 from there to the original purchaser on the route that that delivery 
 covers. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the greatest period of time that it takes, 
 given the limit of your zone of operations, for a delivery from the 
 time that you receive it? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I think our delivery schedule is running now on the 
 hours of 9 o'clock in the morning to leave our place. That is the 
 first delivery, 1.30 on the second, and 5 o'clock on the third. Now, 
 they have to get back from the first delivery to go on the second, and 
 from the second to go on the third. When they come in from the 
 third they are through. They come to the office at 7 o'clock. There 
 are lots of C. O. D.'s we collect; a pair of shoes sent home by a certain 
 purchaser, for instance. 
 
 The Chairman. You do make C. O. D. collections? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. The stores have to have them. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that covered in your contract? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Extra compensation? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No, sir. It ought to be, but it is not. 
 
 The Chairman. That comes in the development? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Future development; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Taking the southern limits of the city and the 
 receipt of a package there, how long a period of time would it require 
 under your present system to deliver that at a point in the northern 
 limit of the city ? I want to get the extremes. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. It would not come that way. We would get that 
 from the central district. Our collections all come from the retail 
 merchandise stores in the central districts. 
 
 The Chairman. If you had a store in the northern limit of the city 
 that sold some goods to a party living in the southern portion of 
 the city, you would collect from the store in the northern limit, bring 
 it to your central depot, and then route it to the other part of the 
 eity? How long a period of time would elapse from the time you 
 collected to the time you delivered ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I can only give you that as a guess, for the simple 
 reason that we do not have a store in the extreme northern section 
 and a store in the extreme southern section. We only take them 
 from the central section. If we go beyond that zone, we do not find 
 it profitable. 
 
 The Chairman. You decline to take a contract? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes ; there is nothing in it. 
 
 The Chairman. But your contracts with your customers are, as I 
 understand it, that you will deliver anywhere in the city limits ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes; but we would not pick up one there and de- 
 liver it 
 
 The Chairman. How would it get to the central district? 
 
 21845— vol 2—12 2 
 
288 PARCEL. POST. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. For instance, you go down to Arthur Burt's and 
 buy a pair of shoes ; our wagon goes along F Street and collects it- 
 brings it to our clearing house,' "whicji is on E Street; then that goes 
 to your residence. If you purchase that package at half past 10 in 
 the morning it would be collected by one of our collection wagons 
 and would go out on the 1.30 delivery. You would get it at your 
 house between 1.30 and 5 o'clock — about half past 4 o'clock — that is, 
 if we are on time, and we go on time. We have to make a clear de- 
 livery on each trip. 
 
 The Chairman. I will put the question this way : Under your sys- 
 tem of operation what is the greatest distance in miles between any 
 two points, one of reception of the package and the other of delivery 
 of the package ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I should imagine that Kensington might be our 
 farthest point. That would be not over 15 miles. I should say we 
 would cover 15 miles in the maximum district — -that is, for the su- 
 burban. We have really three zones — the city zone, the intermediate 
 zone, and the real suburban zone. The intermediate zone might be 
 termed Cathedral Avenue and around through there. After we leave 
 the Zoo that would be on the suburban. 
 
 The Chaikman. Taking your 15-mile limit of distance between the 
 point of reception and the point of delivery of the package, what 
 period of time would be required to transact that operation? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. A suburban wagon goes out and never gets back 
 until it is through. It depends upon the volume of deliveries they 
 have, and the conditions, as to the time they would return. It is 
 scheduled to leave our place the first thing in the morning, about 8 
 o'clock, and they get back some time at night. 
 
 The Chairman. So you would say that a package would be deliv- 
 ered within 12 hours of the time it was received ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes ; the package would be delivered that day. 
 
 The Chairman. Taking up the letter and the question which you 
 have there, would you kindly give the committee, in your own way, 
 such information as you have compiled on those matters? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I have not compiled any information. I just took 
 off a little data. You say you would like particularly to know the 
 kind of equipment in our local service — the number of employees, 
 the average number of packages handled, the maximum, minimum, 
 and average weights, the variation from month to month in the total 
 amount of business, the cost of maintenance, including the keep of . 
 horses, depreciation of equipment, and so forth. Is there any par- j 
 ticular object in knowing anything about our business? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; there is an object. I do not want to insist | 
 upon it, but it would be of benefit to us in the study we are making '• 
 of parcel post — of great benefit in the way of city deliveries. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. The trouble is, you people would be surprised at j 
 the amount of business we do with little equipment. I should say 
 it would average about 42 delivery outfits. 
 
 The Chairman. Forty-two of all kinds — automobiles and so 
 forth? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. That is for light-parcel deliveries, not for trucking. | 
 
 The Chairman. What would be the cost for those 42 delivery 
 teams ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. The cost of operation? 
 
 The Chairman. No; the orignal cost — the installation. 
 
PAKCEL POST. 289 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, of course, I could give you that off our 
 schedules. 
 
 The Chairman. No ; just roughly. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. The delivery outfit would stand you, for horses 
 $450 to $500, wagons $275, a set of harness and the accessories that 
 go with it, such as lamps, blankets, and so forth 
 
 The Chairman. Then, roughly, what would cover a first-class de- 
 livery outfit with two horses? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Under $1,000. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the cost of your automobile? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We have several types of automobiles. We have 
 abandoned the use of gasoline cars for regularity of service, and we 
 are experimenting with electric machines, and have been for some 
 time past. To get dependable service is what is absolutely neces- 
 sary in the delivery business. To have that fundamentally the ma- 
 chine has to be good. In the second place the operation of that 
 machine must be steady and reasonably intelligent; that is, to see 
 that they don't put the car in bad condition from the operator's view- 
 point. But above everything else, after you have the car funda- 
 mentally right — your garage— the treatment of that car must be good. 
 How to get to the combination of the three is the difficult thing. 
 
 The Chairman. That you are working out now for your own 
 determination ; you have not reached a conclusion ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No, sir. In the first place, Ave have our own garage. 
 We have two or three makes of cars, and we find that we have to 
 replace these cars at inopportune moments, so that we have to keep 
 an auxiliary equipment, but that may be entirely our own fault. 
 It may be on account of the lack of knowledge that we have of 
 electrical equipment to properly run it. The automobile people tell 
 you that they guarantee this and that and the other thing, but the 
 proof of the pudding is in the eating, and we have to know that the 
 service is going to be regular, and we do know that the horse is 
 pretty safe and pretty sure. Of course, we carry a percentage in 
 reserve, for we will have horses that get lame, and we have to carry 
 a percentage. When we carry a proper percentage, and find out 
 what a proper percentage is for electrically-operated vehicles, we 
 may be able to protect ourselves. 
 
 The Chairman. You have not reached any conclusion in your 
 own mind as yet, have you, Mr. Newbold, as to whether the horse 
 teams or the automobile service is the more desirable from a business 
 standpoint ; I mean the dollar-and-cents standpoint ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. From the dollar-and-cents standpoint the horse, 
 in our opinion, is more economical, but we realize that the electrical 
 delivery system has got to come. 
 
 The Chairman. Because of public sentiment, you mean ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, it is a progressive movement you know, and 
 it has to be worked out so that we can bring the residts in our busi- 
 ness. Now to go in and replace an entire equipment would be ex- 
 pensive. The cost increases m the ratio of three to one, we might say, 
 the capital outlay. 
 
 The Chairman. The automobile being four and the horse three? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No; the automobile being three to four times as 
 expensive. 
 
 The Chairman. Three to four times as expensive ? 
 
290 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. You get an automobile that costs all the way from 
 three to four thousand dollars. 
 
 The Chairman. Your cost of operation would be what ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. That is another cost. 
 
 The Chairman. Would that be greater than the cost of operation 
 with the horse? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We hope that in the long run it will be less, but 
 we have got to find that out. We have got to get reliability of 
 service, handled by the ordinary operator under unfavorable con- 
 ditions, before we can tell. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the increased percentage of efficiency 
 of the automobile over the horse and wagon service ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. When it is working under ideal conditions the auto- 
 mobile will unquestionably bring very much better results. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you made up your mind as to whether it 
 would do twice, three times or four times as much ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Not in our class of delivery. We figure that we can 
 get maybe 25 and possibly 50 per cent increase. 
 
 The Chairman. In results for the day? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. Now, in a different class of service you might 
 get 200 to 300 per cent. Here is a certain route [indicating] ; take 
 the city of Washington, it is like the spokes of a wheel. We cover 
 a certain given territory. In' each one of those sections will be a 
 route. The horse and wagon has to go to this point and come back 
 again. So does an automobile, but you might not get the stuff in here 
 as fast as the automobile will work automatically. If you could keep 
 the automobile rotating all the time, it would be all right. Then the 
 endurance of the man, too; if you could shift your man and keep 
 him going, it would be all right. So that under a system of figures, 
 with an ideal arrangement, you would see wonderful results in th-3 
 automobile over the horse and wagon. Then comes the practical 
 operation. It is to make all these things fit that is so difficult. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose you were starting in now new with the 
 business, and the field was unoccupied, would you put in an exclusive 
 service of automobiles, or would you put in a mixed service of auto- 
 mobiles and horse and wagon delivery? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. That is a pretty big question. I would like to put 
 in the automobiles exclusively, and if you had them exclusively there 
 is no question about it that you would be able to get very much better 
 results than we are getting trying to work it without too great a 
 risk and loss and work up to the point of replacement all the way 
 through. If you start in fresh with an entire big equipment 
 
 The Chairman. That is what I mean. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Why, that ought to be the method. 
 
 The Chairman. Automobiles exclusively? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes, sir. Now, of course, you have got to know, ! 
 though, that you are going to have a management in there that 
 knows that so well that you are going to get the results, but if your 
 plant is big enough, modern enough, and you are able4o put your 
 best talent in that — — 
 
 The Chairman. We will start with your present volume of busi- 
 ness based upon your experience. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. The Adams Express Co. did that. They tried to 
 work the horse and wagon in conjunction with the automobile, and 
 they had a great deal of trouble. The minute they entirely aban- 
 
PARCEL, POST. 291 
 
 doned the horse and wagon and confined themselves entirely to the 
 automobile, I understand they got very much better results. 
 
 The Chaieman. On the dollar basis? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I do not know about their expense. I mean that 
 their troubles, automobile troubles, began to disappear as soon as 
 they abandoned all horses and confined themselves to automobiles; 
 but that information ought to be obtained from them to be correct. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you take packages, no matter how small, under 
 your contract ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. If they come from an optician, or packages 
 of that kind, they are put in a small envelope. 
 
 The Chairman. But you would take an ounce package or a 25- 
 pound package ; it is immaterial ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. I would like to obtain the information as to the 
 probable cost of duplication of your plant that handles the parcel- 
 delivery portion of your business. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. $50,000 for the parcel deliver}'. That is just for 
 the equipment. 
 
 The Chairman. What would have to be added to that to take care 
 of the operations in the way of your depot ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. That is exclusive of automobiles ? 
 
 The Chairman. Well, let the $50,000 cover a plant capable of 
 handling from 5,000 to 10,000 packages per day within your territory. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes; under our methods of handling. 
 
 The Chairman. What additional expense would have to be in- 
 curred for depots to carry out your method ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I do not quite catch the point. 
 
 The Chairman. The point of concentration of goods and routing 
 you have and warehouses or depots. 
 
 Senator Bryan. The depot is included in that estimate. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No ; that is nothing but the horse and wagon equip- 
 ment. Well, it depends upon your location, the price you would have 
 to pay for your ground. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, we will put it on a rental basis. What 
 would be the rental of a building sufficiently central and sufficiently 
 large ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Say, in Washington? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, that is purely a guess, you know. If you get 
 into a building which was leased quarters, you couldn't afford to be 
 moving all the time, because you would disarrange your organiza- 
 tion. You can not have a miss in delivery. If we shut down for 
 one day at a time when the merchants were busy, we would break 
 all contracts immediately. They could all get out if they wanted to. 
 They would not put up with that class of service. They would not 
 put up with it— the public and the merchants who are dealing with 
 the public— if they miss one delivery. They would not stand for it. 
 
 The Chairman. I appreciate that. Taking the maximum rental 
 per annum for a building in a central place that you would select, 
 based upon the experience you have, what would the rental amount 
 to in thousands of dollars ? _ 
 
 Mr. Newbold. If you could find the proper place, I imagine that 
 you might.be able to get a place in the neighborhood of $3,000 a year 
 rental. 
 
292 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. You have no doubt at $5,000 per annum, have you ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No ; but whether you could get permanency or not — 
 yes, you could get permanency; people would put you up a build- 
 ing at long lease; that is just for your clearing house; that is not 
 for your stabling facilities. 
 
 The Chairman. What would be your estimate as to the annual 
 rental for your stables to take care of an equipment such as you have 
 designated would cost $50,000. capable of handling from 5,000 to 
 10,000 packages per day under 25-pound maximum-limit weight? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. About $150 to $200 per month, rented quarters. 
 That is a very small equipment, you know. We have property of 
 40,000 square feet, stabling property, on the ground floor. 
 . The Chairman. You say that is a very small equipment; I do not 
 understand. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. You see, we have a department-store express busi- 
 ness, you might call it. We have a great many teams in other parts 
 of our business, and we always have those to call on in emergencies 
 and for reserves and for congestion, and sort of dovetail one in to 
 help out the other in bad seasons. 
 
 The Chairman. Let me see if I have got correctly in my own 
 mind your figures. As I understand it, your opinion is that for 
 $50,000 you can establish 42 horse and wagon outfits capable of han- 
 dling from 5,000 to 10,000 packages a day, no package to weigh over 
 25 pounds, and that for $5,000 a year, on a long contract, you could se- 
 cure a building, if necessary to be erected, that would act as your 
 depot, which would handle that volume of business, and at $200 per 
 month you could secure suitable facilities for 42 teams? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I think so, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. Did you ever make the Post Office Department a 
 proposition to handle the local business in case parcel post were 
 established ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I think the manager of our parcel delivery did. I 
 am pretty sure he did. He is not with us now, our parcel-delivery 
 man. I do not know whether I signed the letter or not. They would 
 have that on their records, though. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you be willing to make such a proposition? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. At what rates, assuming that the weight limit 
 should be 11 pounds? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Do you mean covering our territory? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes, sir; your three zones. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. If they really meant business, we would give them 
 a cut rate. We would enter into a year's contract on a basis of 10 
 cents ; the regular rates to suburbs on an average of packages up to 
 that point would be 15 cents. We would like to try out the Govern- 
 ment business, whether we made any money out of it or not. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, 10 cents" a parcel ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes ; 10 cents a parcel, without receipt, just as the 
 Post Office Department would deliver them. 
 
 The Chairman. You make no such contract with private indi- 
 viduals? As I understand you, your contracts with them are un- 
 limited or limited, depending upon the average of parcels, but you 
 have no per parcel unit, have you, with any of your contracts? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I imagine we have some per parcel, yes, sir; but 
 that is not the general contract. We originally had per-parcel units, 
 
PARCEL POST. 293 
 
 a good many of them, but we are getting away from that, because we 
 a™ figuring to save the merchant a reasonable amount of the cost 
 of his delivery, and we figure that, depending upon the size of the 
 establishment, that reasonable amount would run from 20 to 50 
 to the establishment— that is, to a large department store our per- 
 centage would be less, because their methods of delivering are alonff 
 the same lines that ours would be. 
 
 The Chairman. When you had the per-parcel unit, what was your 
 price per parcel for your three zones ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We ran a schedule in the city zone at an average 
 of from 5 to 10 cents per package. 
 
 The Chairman. What on the intermediate zone? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. On the intermediate? Well, on the suburban zone 
 it is three times the city rate. 
 
 The Chairman. Three times the city rate ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes ; in other words," we operate three deliveries in 
 the city with one outfit. It requires one outfit to operate one de- 
 livery for the suburbs, so that there is your percentage right there ; 
 it is three to one. • 
 
 The Chairman. Then, when you had a parcel unit your minimum 
 rate was 5 cents a parcel in the city ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. It depends upon the class of goods, and that would 
 be the minimum we would make, depending upon the volume we 
 would receive. The volume has a great deal to do with the rate. 
 For instance, a person that had 10 packages a week could not get 
 the same rate from us as one that had 1,000 packages a week. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, as I understood it, at one time you had a 
 parcel unit and to-day you have not? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes ; we found that that was not the way to do it. 
 
 The Chairman. I want to get at this information: At the time that 
 you actually operated under the parcel unit system, what was the 
 minimum cost or charge per parcel? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Five cents. 
 
 The Chairman. For city delivery? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. For city delivery. 
 
 The Chairman. What was the minimum cost or charge per parcel 
 for the rural delivery — 15 cents ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Fifteen cents. We might have made concessions 
 at times for specific reasons ; we often have, in our business. We can 
 not apply a general rate. There are general conditions that go to 
 make up that rate. We might give a man a better rate in the sub- 
 urbs with a hope of getting his city business; in other words, to 
 educate him in the use of our system. Sometimes we lose money at a 
 given rate in order to eventually make money. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it your opinion that you could handle the serv- 
 ice more efficiently than the Government could through the postal 
 department if a contract was made with you for the exclusive han- 
 dling of fourth-class mail matter, weight increased to 11 pounds, in 
 your present zone of operations ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We could handle it more economically than they 
 could. Was that the question? 
 
 The Chairman. More efficiently would, of course, include economy. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I would not necessarily say we could handle it more 
 efficiently. It depends upon the amount of expense to which you are 
 put to handle the volume of business ; that is, if we run a wagon that 
 
294 PARCEL POST. 
 
 handles only 10 deliveries with a competent driver, it is unquestion- 
 able that you could give better service than you could for 100. 
 
 The Chairman. Let us get right back to your statement that you 
 could handle it more economically. Now, for what reasons ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Because we make a business of it. 
 
 The Chairman . Because you are specialists in that particular line? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Because we are specialists in that line. Because we 
 have to make, or endeavor to make, money out of it, and we are 
 applying the best energies and the best economies that we can possi- 
 bly use in order to get a percentage of the dollar as profit, which the 
 Government would do under idealistic arrangements. It is the same 
 old general contention, Senator, concerning the Government owner- 
 ship of anything. We business men think that in the 'course of 
 time business would get into a rut. There would be higher expense 
 and greater extravagance in the Government operation than there 
 would be in an individual's. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, in your opinion, it is absolutely impos- 
 sible for the Government ever in its operation to give the same 
 efficiency that private enterprise can? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I would not say the efficiency, necessarily, but the 
 same economy. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the efficiency I would make generic, and 
 cover economy. Do you believe that you could handle under a con- 
 tract, if made by the Government with you covering the territory 
 now included in your present scope of operation, that business at less 
 cost to the Government than the Post Office Department can handle it? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I do. 
 
 The Chairman. You, of course, would expect to make some pront 
 in the handling? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, it would be a pretty close question of profit in 
 there, but we would be cultivating the territory. If you increase the 
 volume in that territory, you would be enabled to make profit out of 
 the other business you would handle there. 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, by getting the Government's busi- 
 ness of that nature you would increase your own good will? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes; you would increase your good will, increase 
 your facilities, and enable you to carry a certain volume of that busi- 
 ness and make a profit. 
 
 The Chairman. In your judgment, would it not be a good thing 
 to handle the Government business even if you only broke even on it. 
 in view of increasing your clientele on other business outside of that? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes; we would like to. That is the reason I said 
 that we would make the Government a very close rate. I do not 
 think the Government business would be very much in the suburbs of 
 Washington. The suburbs of Washington are rather a small affair. I 
 do not think the Government business out there would amount to much. 
 
 The Chairman. How about your two smaller zones, your inter- 
 mediate and your. city zones, if the present parcel post were increased 
 in its scope by increasing its weight and decreasing its postage! 
 Presumably the volume of fourth-class matter — that is, the present 
 volume — would be increased. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We could handle it all right for them, and we 
 could handle it economically, but we would never get an opportunity. 
 The Government would not, on the broad principle of Government 
 management of such an affair, permit the making of subcontracts. 
 
PARCEL POST. 295 
 
 The Chairman. Why not, if it could be demonstrated that it could 
 be done cheaper for the Government by private enterprise than 
 through its own machinery? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. The great trouble would be, Senator, as T view the 
 parcel delivery question, most of our cities have some method of 
 parcel delivery. They are about the crudest systems that you can 
 imagine. 
 
 The Chairman. You are referring now to governmental, or private 
 systems ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No ; to private. 
 
 The Chairman. The principal criticism being the enormous dupli- 
 cation? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. In other words, there has never been enough money 
 in it for anybody to go into it who has the ability to make a success 
 out of it. You find very few parcel delivery concerns that ever make 
 any money. If we had been running our parcel delivery concern on 
 its own basis without any other department at all or adjunct to our 
 business, they could never afford to pay me my salary. 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, if you'had restricted your field of 
 operations to a parcels service only, it would not have been a success. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We would have starved to death. It would have 
 necessitated cheap or inferior management, and consequently it 
 would never have grown sufficiently to take care of the city's busi- 
 ness under any system. 
 
 The Chairman. Then your profits are in your warehouse branch 
 of the business? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. The warehouse branch is the most profitable. 
 
 The Chairman. And your parcels delivery is simply a feeder to 
 that business, is it so considered? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, it is like a department in a department store. 
 You can take the whole of them under a general management and 
 minimize your overhead charges. 
 
 The Chairman. That is as applied toward each branch? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Now, two or three times a year we distribute the 
 telephone books, in the neighborhood of from forty to forty-five 
 thousand, but I would not care to give you the rate for delivering 
 those books ; we do not handle them directly through our system, but 
 we have reserve forces and call on the various departments to fill in, 
 so we make a special effort to get rid of those in five days. For in- 
 stance, sometimes we will bring to the Senate* up here possibly three 
 or four hundred books in one delivery. Of course, where you go 
 to the individual houses there is separate delivery. If you undertake 
 to mail those, if you want two books mailed, it costs 16 cents ; and we 
 do better than that. 
 
 The Chairman. You understand the screen-wagon service for 
 which the Post Office Department now contracts in many cities? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. You mean for the Christmas business? 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the screen-wagon for the mails. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We have bid on a number of those things for the 
 Government ; for instance, they have a bid out now for service around 
 the Christmas holidays, but we never have been able to get it because 
 it comes in a bad season of the year. 
 
 The Chairman. Eight at the peak of your business? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes ; and the prices they seem to be able to get for 
 some kinds of wagons are such that we could not afford. The mini- 
 
296 PARCEL POST. 
 
 mum cost of operating a wagon would be $5 a day; you can not 
 operate a wagon with any overhead charges at all for less than $5 a 
 day, and lots of people will furnish wagons. at less than $5 a day 
 because they have no overhead charges and no responsibility. 
 
 The Chairman. The most of the large cities of the country enjoy 
 a service similar to yours? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I do not think so. Some sort of a service; but we 
 have never been able to find anything that has the system we have. 
 We have a system; and it is regular, it is thorough, and it is clean 
 delivery, which is the essential feature. We get rid of the number 
 of packages we handle with perfect regularity; we do not get con- 
 gested, but if we were ever congested, we would be gone. 
 
 The Chairman. In your service do you ever deliver direct from 
 the merchant's place of business, or do all of your packages go to 
 your depot before delivery? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. All come to our depot, unless we furnish the 
 merchant an auxiliary like a special-delivery wagon or two, for 
 which we charge them so much. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any difference, in your opinion, between 
 the cost of collection and the cost of delivery? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes; a great difference. 
 
 The Chairman. Why? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Because but few wagons bring in all that is neces- 
 sary for a whole lot to carry out, because they pick them up from the 
 busy sections. 
 
 The Chairman. I see. The zone of collection is much less than the 
 zone of distribution. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Oh, yes: it is vi-ry. very infinitesimal as compared 
 with the zone of distribution. 
 
 The Chairman. Could you arrive at a basis in your own mind that 
 will be valuable as to the proportional part of the cost, say; take 
 a dollar, for example, how many cents of that dollar would be con- 
 sumed in the cost of collection and how many cents in the cost of 
 distribution? I want to get the relative percentages, if possible. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Why, I should say my guess would be that it was 
 about 10 per cent in our business. 
 
 The Chairman. And it costs nine times as much to distribute as it 
 does to collect ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Exactly. 
 
 The Chairman. That is very interesting. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. You see, we will go to a retail establishment and 
 get possibly 50 packages, and we may pick up in a block 500, (500* 
 700, or 800 or 1.000 packages, and it will take so many wagons to 
 deliver those, and each one of those has to be delivered singly ovei 
 a much wider range of territory, and you can just see how that will 
 follow. You can pick it up by the wholesale and distribute it retail, 
 in other words. 
 
 The Chairman. In submitting a contract to the Government, you 
 would make no consideration whatever of weight. That would not 
 enter into your calculation at all? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No ; not up to 11 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Would it up to 25 pounds? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes; I suppose it would. If you go over the Ktnit 
 of 11 pounds, if the bulk of your stuff was running up to 25 pounds, 
 the chances are that it would be bulky. It is easier for a driver to 
 
PARCEL POST. 297 
 
 pick a light package up in one hand and then jump off and make his 
 delivery than it is for him if he has to stop and make a little effort. 
 
 The Chairman. What would you figure as to the cost in your col- 
 lection in the 10 cents per parcel tentative proposition ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. You mean in collecting them from the Government? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Why, you would collect on a basis of almost 2 per 
 cent, I should imagine, from the Government. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, 2 cents out of a dollar? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Two cents out of a dollar, I should say, ought to 
 cover that. 
 
 The Chairman. And the other 98 cents would be for distribution? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. You would get your whole load at the depot. 
 
 The Chairman. At the depot or at the post office? 
 _ Mr. Newbold. Eight at the one depot, and it would consume very 
 little time in the transporting of that to your clearing house. That, 
 of course, would have to be distributed by many wagons. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, to my mind, the 10 cents cost for delivery 
 of parcels in the lo-mile zone radius seems a high price. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, I imagine, Senator, through some of that 
 territory it would cost us possibly 25 cents or 30 cents to make de- 
 livery. You can not discriminate in the suburban territory. Now, 
 we take, for instance, Chevy Chase, which you know of. On the 
 road to Chevy Chase you will have a package, possibly, for the 
 Children's Home. You go down to the Children's Home and de- 
 liver one package and possibly to one or two other houses in that 
 neighborhood, and that would take you as long as it would to deliver 
 10 or 15 packages a mile farther out, where you come to a village 
 that has quite a little population. There is a considerable loss of time 
 in that instance, but' you can not discriminate against that one per- 
 son who lives in the zone, although in the outlying section of the zone 
 or right before you get to that zone. Tt is the distance you would 
 have to travel — the out-of-the-way stations many of those residences 
 are located at. Then, frequently, if there happens to be a country 
 residence of any size, the. approach to the house is often very long. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose the volume of your business was quad- 
 rupled. To what extent would you reduce the price of 10 cents per 
 package for delivery? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, the number of trips you could cover in a day 
 to a given section or territory would regulate the price. If you are 
 able to make 2 trips of 100 deliveries, why, you can do it cheaper 
 than you can 1 load; but if you have to take 1-| loads there, why, it 
 is the same price that it would be for the 2 loads. Anything that 
 requires additional service enters into the cost. Do you get my point 
 on that, Senator? For instance, Ave make 3 trips in the city where we 
 make 1 in the suburbs; therefore we figure the same operating costs 
 in proportion, the rate for the suburbs being three times what it costs 
 for the city delivery, we would have to get three times the city rate 
 to apply to the suburbs — the city rate being 5 cents, the suburban 
 rate would be 15 cents. Now, if you could make two trips to the 
 suburbs you could apply the rate of 10 cents, as against the city 
 minimum rate of 5 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. Your illustration answers the question. Do you 
 accept responsibility for the safe delivery of all parcels which you 
 undertake to carry? 
 
298 PABCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes ; up to a limit of value. 
 
 The Chairman. That being what? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. The usual contract with the store is — if they handle 
 valuable goods, for instance, like Steinmetz, who handles furs, we 
 limit ourselves to $25 valuation. 
 
 The Chairman. What liability goes with your ordinary contract? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Under our ordinary contract we replace goods at 
 the cost price to the merchant. In other words, they must not make a 
 sale to us as well as to the customer. There must only be one sale; 
 therefore we are entitled to actual cost. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you had, in your experience, many claims 
 for loss or damage to parcels? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Our percentage of loss is very, very small. 
 
 The Chairman. Much less than 1 per cent ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes; I would say that. 
 
 The Chairman. Much less? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, 1 per cent is pretty small, that is true. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, less than 1 per cent? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, it is so small that it does not affect us at all. 
 I could not give you the figure. 
 
 The Chairman. You have no one-horse delivery wagons? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. They are all one-horse in the city service. 
 
 The Chairman. Their capacity is 750 pounds to the team? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. A thousand pounds would be the average capacity. 
 
 The Chairman. Per team or per day? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No ; you would have to have a wagon that is built 
 with a capacity of 1,000 pounds. Now, if we used wagons of only 
 500 pounds capacity, though we might only carry 500 pounds in 
 weight the wagon would be too light to stand up under the service 
 and it would rack to pieces. It is not the weight it carries, but the 
 weight in itself. You have to have a large enough body, and if you 
 make that body too light it would not stand the service. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you figure to have your one-horse wagons 
 in the city so that they will carry 1,000 pounds weight? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. On a load? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Are your two-horse delivery wagons figured to 
 carry any greater weight? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We do not run any two-horse delivery wagons in 
 the city, as they are too awkward to make the time. We have to use 
 those in the suburbs on account of the condition of the hills and 
 roads — it is slower work. Suburban delivery is much slower than 
 city work, the latter being very fast. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Newbold, do you compete with the express 
 companies on local business? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No ; we handle goods for the express companies in 
 the suburban districts. 
 
 The Chairman. Under an annual contract or per package unit? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Per package unit. You see the class of goods they 
 have is different. 
 
 The Chairman. What weight limit? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. There is no limit to the weight. We have a scale of 
 prices. 
 
PARCEL POST. 299 
 
 The Chairman. You have a scale of prices? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the basis of your scale? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Why, it is a scale that they are willing to pay us for 
 handling their suburban delivery to points that they do not reach. 
 You see, they have a zone that is unprofitable for them to go beyond. 
 Of course, they cover the city of Washington, but if they try to 
 reach out at all into the suburbs there would be no limit as to where 
 they might be asked to go with a package ; they must have some limit, 
 or they would go all the way to Baltimore before they made a limit. 
 
 The Chairman. Their limit is the boundary line of the city of 
 Washington, I suppose? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No ; they have a greater limit than the old regular 
 city limits. The city limits have really outgrown themselves some- 
 what, and as the demand has come' from the public the express com- 
 panies have reached out and filled that. demand. 
 
 The Chairman. In what territory do you handle express business? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We handle it all through our suburban territory 
 and points that they do not reach by the railroads. 
 
 The Chairman. Upon a per package basis? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, of course, we do not handle packages exclu- 
 sively, you know. Express companies handle anything up to a trunk. 
 They will handle a box of trees, you know. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, for the sake of illustration, we will deem 
 each one of these a package — that is, every separate bundle a package. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Our minimum rate is 15 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. From that how high do you go? What is the 
 maximum ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Why, I do not believe there is any maximum except 
 as to the weight ; it would be so much after it reached a certain weight 
 and the rate would go on up. 
 
 The Chairman. Fifteen cents up to what weight, then, is your 
 minimum limit ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I think the 15-cent rate. I am -not sure about that. 
 We have a scale of that which might apply from 1 to 10 pounds. 
 They had a habit before that, you know, of sending postal-card notice 
 to somebody who lived in the suburban district, when there was a pack- 
 age at their office, for the party to call and claim it. Now, to facilitate 
 the delivery for the consignee, they turn that business over to us. 
 
 The Chairman. And also to expand their business ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes ; they turn that business over to us and we col- 
 lect from the consignee an additional tariff. 
 
 The Chairman. Without the consent of the consignee ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Without the consent of the consignee. The con- 
 signee has a right to decline it and say, " I will send down and get 
 it myself." 
 
 The Chairman. Then who pays you ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We take that loss. 
 
 The Chairman. You take the risk yourself? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We assume the loss. 
 
 Senator Brtan. Keally the express companies do not pay you any- 
 thing? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No ; they simply turn the stuff over to us to facili- 
 tate delivery to their customers, which method we have heard criti- 
 
300 PAECEL. POST. 
 
 cized occasionally in some of the suburban districts. There have been 
 a few complaints, but usually they are from people who are going 
 to report it to the Interstate Commerce Commission, which they have 
 done over and over again, I suppose. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you had any appreciable number of express 
 packages under your express contract where the consignee declined 
 to receive them ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No. As a general rule they are glad to get them 
 that way, because it saves them a great deal of time and expense. If 
 they had to call for the packages themselves it would necessitate car 
 fare and sending an express wagon down there at three or four times 
 the cost that we charge them. Of course, we get an occasional lack, 
 and a letter goes to the express company claiming that it is all wrong 
 on general principles, but we agree with the express company that 
 there must be some limit to the zone that they must carry in. They 
 can not carry to the North Pple, of course. 
 
 The Chaihman. You have but one central depot? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We have but one central depot; yes. This city does 
 not require any more. Washington is rather a small town. 
 
 The Chairman. But that handles. all of your business? That is 
 the point of concentration and distribution? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes; the city of New York, I imagine there there 
 would have to be various central clearing houses or substations, or 
 possibly the same way in Chicago. 
 
 The Chairman. How many buildings have you— just one build- 
 ing? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. How large is the building? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Why, we have a building that has 11,000 square 
 feet; we have a storage warehouse 8 stories high above the ground 
 and 9 stories high, including the basement. 
 
 The Chairman. How many thousand square feet do you utilize 
 for the handling of your packages alone, roughly speaking? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I -imagine that we use about 10,000 square feet of 
 space. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the usual length of your business day for 
 the employees? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We have no hours in our business — that is, we try 
 to regulate. 
 
 The Chairman. What do you figure on ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. You mean in this particular branch of our business? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; in that particular branch. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. From 7.30 o'clock in the morning until 6 are the 
 regular hours for clerks. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, for the deliveries. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. For the deliverymen from 8 o'clock, their first trip, 
 and their average, I should say, was from that until about between 
 8 and 9 at night, and sometimes later; sometimes they get away 
 earlier, but it depends upon the season of the year. At Christmas 
 they run up to 11 o'clock at night. 
 
 The Chairman. And deliverymen are supposed to make so many 
 trips rather than work so many hours? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes ; so many trips. A point we always tried to 
 light was the late hours of delivery at night, but that was occasioned by 
 the demand of the public through the stores for the delivery. That 
 
PARCEL POST. 301 
 
 enables them to get packages that are sold up to a certain time. If 
 we had full regulation over that we would shut down that hour and 
 start' off earlier. If we could start off at 5 o'clock on our third trip we 
 could bring them in at 7. but it takes about three hours to make a trip. 
 
 The Chairman. On one route in the city? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the length of that route? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I should say from 10 to 15 miles, they will average. 
 
 The Chairman. And they make three trips a day ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Three a day. 
 
 The Chairman. What would you call the average of your subur- 
 ban route, where you make one trip a day ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We have odometer readings of the mileage, and my 
 idea of the suburban route would be between 30 and 40 miles. 
 
 The Chairman. On one trip? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. In a 10-hour period or 12? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. About the same general period as the city deliveries. . 
 
 The Chairman. Is Saturday your heaviest day, ordinarily? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes ; and in Washington immediately after pay day in 
 the Government — that is, the Government pays the 16th of the month, 
 and we will .find the 16th, 17th, and 18th are heavy days; and the 1st, 
 2d, and 3d. For instance, Thursday being closed on account of Thanks- 
 giving, this week we will find Friday and Saturday very heavy days. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you have to put on extras those clays? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We have to be prepared for extras. You see, the 
 class of deliverymen that we use have to be very good. You can not 
 take a man who is over 35 and put him on a delivery wagon, for he 
 would be too slow, and he could not get rid of it fast enough; we 
 have to have young and active men, around 25 years of age ; they are 
 better, and we find a great deal of trouble with white help in the 
 delivery line. You can not employ white help here with any de- 
 pendence and regularity. We pay a higher scale of wages than any 
 of the department stores to our drivers, but if we employ white men 
 as drivers, at $2 per day, if they get a chance to get $2.50 a day as a 
 carpenter's helper, they are gone. A white man is always ambitious 
 to get beyond a driver's position if he is any good at all. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the process of promotion? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We have a schedule of what we call prize money 
 we give our men for efficient service. The first essential is that he 
 must be a good deliverymen and able to take care of his route, and 
 just as important as that comes next the dependability of the man 
 being there regularly every day in the year and taking his three trips 
 a day. After that comes the questions of minor consideration; for 
 instance, he must not hold back returns ; that is, if he collects C. O. D. 
 an article that might be billed up to him at $3.98, and it is written 
 up $2.98, we would catch it up later and find he was a dollar short, 
 but we do not have many holding back money on their returns, as 
 a rule, as drivers will. We get reports from the complaint depart- 
 ment, the money department, the stable department, and all of those 
 minor things, and the drivers are awarded a premium on their wage 
 at the end of the month for good records, the first two considerations 
 being competent deliverymen and regularity of service. 
 
 The Chairman. And the recognition for demonstrated good serv- 
 ice is extra compensation at the end of the month? 
 
302 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. In the dull season as well as the busy; the 
 only time we ever make any change in that is from now until the 
 30th of December we double up the prize money pretty near in the 
 month of December, simply because we can not take any chances, if 
 we can in anyway prevent it. If you put it on to him in the regular 
 schedule of wages it does not have the same effect ; it is that im- 
 mediate premium that is coming in at the end of the month in ad- 
 dition to his regular pay. 
 
 The Chairman. Taking your monthly wage scale of $60, what 
 would the premium amount to at the end of the month in dollars ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, take a driver who draws $12 a week ; he would 
 get at the end of the month $5 if his record is good. 
 
 The Chairman. His associates know that he gets that, do they? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Oh, yes; they talk among themselves, you know; 
 and sometimes there is great disappointment. 
 
 The Chairman. The question of personal equation enters into it ; 
 in other words, the vanity is a factor as well as the dollar? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. It makes a good service, and we get good 
 results from it. 
 
 The Chairman. What time do the men usually get through Satur- 
 day night ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Why, we make four deliveries on Saturday. That 
 is the only day in the week we do that. We have one delivery that 
 leaves at 7 o'clock, and that means about a 10 o'clock return. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you pay extra compensation for it? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No. 
 
 The Chairman. But they know when they enter into the engage- 
 ment that that trip has to be made ? That is thoroughly understood 
 as a part of the engagement? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. How great is the increase of your business around 
 the Christmas holidays over the rest of the year? If we could, for 
 the sake of illustration, take the number of packages you have stated 
 as the average daily business, from 5,000 to 10,000, around the Christ- 
 mas holidays, how much would that be enlarged per day ? Would it 
 double? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes; it will in the Christmas holidays. The busi- 
 ness will increase from the 15th of December and run very heavy. 
 
 The Chairman. How long will that continue from the 15th of De- 
 cember ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Eight straight through until Christmas night. 
 Christmas day we run a delivery and we try to pretty near clean 
 up by Christmas night. 
 
 The Chairman. I had thought possibly it would extend over the 
 first of the New Year? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Oh, no. We absolutely cleaned up last year, and 
 on Christmas day we turned over to the Adams Express. practically 
 our entire equipment to help them out. You see, the express com- 
 panies are different. A man buys a package in Chicago to be deliv- 
 ered in Washington and sends it as a Christmas present, or some- 
 thing of the kind, and it comes here as soon as they can transport it, 
 it is true, but there is no regular day or time for delivery. They 
 deliver it as quick as they can, but with somebody from your family 
 going down town to buy a pair of shoes, or if you had a new white 
 waistcoat that you wanted because you were going out to dinner to- 
 
PARCEL POST. 303 
 
 night, you must have it to-night, and the store must promise it to 
 you, and there can be no day after to-morrow or some other time. 
 You have to have it when you want it. 
 
 The Chairman. Taking that 10-day period, from the 15th of 
 December until Christmas day, how much greater is the volume of 
 business during those 10 days than the volume of business during the 
 average 10 days in the rest of the year? Does it double or treble? 
 What percentage would you say was the increase, conservatively? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I had better explain this part first. The busy sea- 
 son with us is in the months of October, November, and December, in 
 the fall of the year, and it runs pretty even along those months, the 
 general demand and purchases. Christinas time it will increase 
 maybe 50 per cent over that. 
 
 The Chairman. You have to put on extra teams and extra men ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Extra teams and extra men. 
 
 The Chairman. The increase of business in those 10 days is 50 per 
 cent. What is the increase in percentage of your equipment and help ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I should say 25 per cent; in other words, you are 
 working everything right to the limit, you know, and they can stand 
 that strain for a reasonable amount of time, but they are all in when 
 it is over. But the nearer you get things to a system — to dependar 
 bility, regularity — the easier it makes it. You will find that if 
 you are allowed to congest, the system is all gone to the winds. 
 
 The Chairman. All organization is destroyed for the time? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. It absorbs the whole organization, you know, and 
 you can not ever allow yourself to get in that dangerous position. 
 You take in the freight depots in the delivery of freight, a conges- 
 tion starts on freight work and they will make one trip a day with a 
 team, whereas ordinarily they ought to be making three. That was 
 demonstrated here last year with one of our express companies when 
 they got horribly tied up. There were cars that laid on the tracks 
 for two weeks and there had not been anything taken out of them. 
 That was due to a lack of system entirely, and they got into bad 
 weather conditions, but we had the same bad weather conditions. 
 The horses would go out and could not stand up, and the automo- 
 biles would go out but could not pull through. You will remember 
 that last December was a terrible month of snow and ice. The pub- 
 lic in general is kind under very bad conditions, they make allow- 
 ances, and people will carry their own packages or they will put up 
 with a little delay, but they will not put up with it indefinitely after 
 they have had three or four days, and they think a concern should 
 have straightened out by that time, and they really should have. 
 
 The Chairman. You have had no difficulty in your 21 years of 
 operation of business here in getting all the additional teams and 
 men that you require during the holiday time ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. You have to prepare for that, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. But you are able to get them? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. If you look ahead for them. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, all business is influenced by personal equa- 
 tion. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. If the management don't look ahead and safeguard 
 its business, it is liable to suffer as a consequence. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, at the expiration of the holiday season have 
 you left on your hands any teams or horses ? 
 21845— vol 2—12 3 
 
304 PAKCEL, POST. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. We have more equipment than we need. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, to make your preparations you have to pur- 
 chase, do you, additional teams ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, we borrow from ourselves — from other de- 
 partments. For instance, we do furniture moving, freight hauling, 
 and a general run of business of that land, and if you can slack down 
 on one end and push it into another, it materially helps, and it is 
 that which has helped us. 
 
 The Chairman. But if you only handled parcel-delivery service, 
 in your opinion, you would have difficulty in hiring? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. You would have to purchase additional equipr 
 ment, you think? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. You can hire, but it is hard to hire with any regu- 
 larity and you would have to pay a good price for it. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, you do not think you would be left with a 
 lot of material which would have to be sold at a sacrifice in order to 
 handle the business? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No. The best way would be to carry a reasonable 
 amount of surplus and then add to that so that you will have some 
 which you will have to carry over. You will always have to carry 
 over something. If you could keep your department working full 
 all the time you would make a great deal of money. 
 
 The Chairman. Of course, that is the desideratum in any business. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Your peak of the load comes at Christmas time on 
 parcel delivery, and after that it falls materially. 
 
 The Chairman. So that the slackest portion of the year is imme- 
 diately after the peak — after the holidays? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. It is? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. And for a week it is very dull; then, during 
 the week following that, it commences to get rather heavy again, due 
 to the changing of packages. So many stores will- exchange the pack- 
 ages, and then comes the after purchases of Christmas on account of 
 Christmas funds. Many people receive money, or something of that 
 sort, for Christmas and make their purchases afterwards. Then, 
 there are always bargains after Christmas that you can not get be- 
 fore, so it keeps up for quite a little while. I imagine February is 
 duller than January. Again, at Easter time, it gets very heavy, es- 
 pecially if it is a late Easter. In late April it is very heavy and 
 heavy all through May and June. 
 
 The Chairman. Do all your employees take receipts for the de- 
 livery of packages? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No; except in specific cases. 
 
 The C HA1EMAN - Of particular value? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Of particular value. 
 
 The Chairman. When they take receipts are they turned over to 
 the merchants, or are they delivered to you? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Delivered to us — taken right on their sheets. 
 
 The Chairman. But you send the receipts to the merchants? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Oh, yes ; we are responsible to the merchants, abso- 
 lutely, just the same as if it was their own delivery. In other words, 
 we try to make the merchants feel that this is their own delivery. 
 
 The Chairman. Do many of the larger departmental stores here in 
 Washington maintain delivery systems of their own? 
 
PARCEL POST. 305 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes; several of them do. Woodward & Lothrop, 
 for instance. 
 
 The Chairman. But that is decreasing, because they find that you 
 can handle the business? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, we get more of it from the small stores and 
 we are working on the big stores now. We have two or three of 
 the big stores, and there are three or four that we haven't, but we 
 expect finally to get them all. We have the suburban delivery of 
 all the big department stores except Woodward & Lothrop. 
 
 The Chairman. Your theory is that the consolidation of the whole 
 delivery business of this city under one management would eliminate 
 enormous duplication and it could be handled on a much more 
 efficient and economic basis? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Absolutely, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. And you do not think there would be the slightest 
 difficulty of one company handling all the business? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Not a particle. The bigger it is the easier it is 
 to handle. 
 
 The Chairman. Taking Washington's present business and assum- 
 ing one delivery system, what would you figure the cost was in dupli- 
 cation, 100 per cent, 200 per cent on delivery alone ? 
 
 Mr. Newbld. On delivery? Well, it would be hard to ascertain. 
 I would just go back and cite the old milk business again. You 
 know how many people go through the block you live in. That 
 would be the same case with the retail dry-goods merchant and 
 shopkeepers down town. If they centralized anything it certainly 
 means vast economy. There must be an enormous duplication, 200 
 stores each running a separate wagon, we would say, and you could 
 just see what that would amount to. 
 
 The Chairman. That is one of the possible or probable solutions 
 of lower prices, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. One of the factors that must enter in? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes; and it naturally means lo\ter prices. 
 
 The Chairman. In making your contract with the 200 stores that 
 you now have under contract, what do you figure you can do their 
 business for, giving better service and how much cheaper? Fifty 
 per cent of what it costs them ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. The average of the small store would unquestionably 
 be 50 per cent. The large store would be 25 per cent. We go as far 
 as to make a proposition to a store, for instance, like Woodward & 
 Lothrop, or S. Kann Sons & Co., if they would put their head account- 
 ant to take off their costs and allow us to put in an expert accountant 
 from an. auditing company in an absolutely confidential way to test 
 that cost, to see if it was correct, and take off a record of their number 
 of deliveries in the same manner over a given period of two or three 
 years, we would enter into a contract with them for a period of five 
 years based on that cost on that count per package to do their de- 
 livery less 25 per cent of that cost limited to that number of pieces, 
 anything additional to be paid for at the same proportion or rate. 
 
 The Chairman. There your unit is established. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. But they say, "Well, that sounds very good, but we 
 think when we have submitted this cost you will be in doubt." We 
 say, " If you will agree to that, if you will put the accountant on, 
 we will deposit with you a $5,000 certified check, under a written 
 
306 PARCEL POST. 
 
 agreement to be forfeited if we do not enter into such a contract; 
 otherwise we are Avilling to abide by the decision of that court of 
 accountants." 
 
 The Chairman. You have made that proposition? 
 
 Mr. Neavbold. Yes. But it is hard to get them interested. 
 
 Senator Bryan. That is, for 25 per cent less? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. For 25 per cent less. 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, if it costs them $50,000 you, would 
 do it for $37,500 on a five-year basis, and for any additional package 
 you would receive a proportional rate? 
 
 Mr. Neavbold. That is the idea entirely, and take the equipment 
 off their hands at an appraised valuation to be agreed upon. We . 
 would expect to make certain losses on that equipment, but we have 
 to do that to remove that bar from the situation. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, they have the largest store in "Washington, or 
 they deliver the largest number of packages delivered by any one store ? 
 
 Mr. Neavbold. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. If you could afford to do that, making a 25 per cent 
 saving of the present rate, stores handling 1 per cent of their busi- 
 ness, probably you would be able to make a 75 per cent saving on 
 their way of delivery? 
 
 Mr. Neavbold. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. With your organization, I mean? 
 
 Mr. Neavbold. Of course, we would not give a store that was smaller 
 the same rate. 
 
 The Chairman. No; you would not have the same incentive on 
 the basis of Avholesale as you would on retail business. How many 
 men do you send out on a Avagon, as a rule ? 
 
 Mr. Neavbold. We send a driver and a helper. The busier the 
 season, if we can giA'e a man two helpers, we do that. We have a 
 route agent Avho runs all these teams ; that is very essential, the man 
 who handles the men and gets them away, and he has nothing to do 
 with the clearing house except to see that the men get their goods 
 quickly and are out of the way. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Hoav many teams have you in your business? 
 
 Mr. Neavbold. Just in the parcel delivery? 
 
 Senator Bryan. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Neavbold. I should say about 42. 
 
 Seator Bryan. How many automobiles? 
 
 Mr. Neavbold. I think we have only seven. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Is there any other parcel-delivery concern in 
 Washington besides yours? 
 
 Mr. Neavbold. No ; they could not get in. I will explain that to 
 you if you like. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Now, how much more business could you handle 
 with your same equipment ? 
 
 Mr. Neavbold. We could not handle any more business. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You could not? 
 
 Mr. Neavbold. When I say that I do not mean we could not take 
 on a store that would pay us $10 a week. I mean we could not handle 
 any appreciable increase. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Without having more teams? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Exactly. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Could you give in miles the area over which you 
 collect packages for delivery? 
 
PARCEL POST. 307 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes; just a rough guess you know. I could give 
 you the territory and maybe that would be better. I think we col- 
 lect from Sixth and Pennsylvania Avenue to Fifteenth and Penn- 
 sylvania Avenue and from Seventh and K to Fifteenth and H 
 Streets down to Pennsylvania Avenue. 
 
 Senator Bryan. So that we may have it in the record, will you 
 state about what area that is? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I should say it was within the mile zone, certainly ; 
 it is all within a three-quarters of a mile zone, I think. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I understood you to say you have these contracts 
 with about 200 merchants? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bryan. What character of merchandise do you handle? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, we handle all retail and general merchandise, 
 except, perishable goods ; that would not be right exactly, because we 
 do handle candy. 
 
 The Chairman. Don't you handle butter and eggs? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No ; that is what I mean to imply. We don't handle 
 groceries, meats, or provisions. We handle dry goods, shoes, milli- 
 nery, and department-store material. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Is it not a fact that each of the 200 customers is 
 large enough so that under conditions as they exist to-day they would 
 have to have a delivery system if somebody did not operate one ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. That is true; they would have to have a means of 
 delivery. 
 
 Senator Bryan. All your customers are large enough in business 
 to have to have a delivery system of their own if you were not here, 
 or somebody else was not here? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, they might only require a porter or a boy. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Now, the first zone of your delivery extends over 
 about how many square miles, would you say? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, Ave go to Twentieth Street north and south. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Well, you understand there are a lot of us who are 
 new to the city, and I would like to have it in the record. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, that would simply be a guess as to the mile- 
 age. I should say the city zone would not cover an area from the 
 central point in the business section of over 3 miles. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You say from the central point to the outside of 
 the first zone would not be more than 3 miles ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Three or 4 miles. 
 
 . Senator Bryan. Now, the intermediate zone would be about how 
 far from your central station? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, that is centralized. You see, for instance you 
 go out toward Fourteenth Street extended, after you leave Rock Creek 
 down the Piney Branch Road, you might call that part of it. I would 
 not be able to answer that as to how many miles it would contain. 
 
 Senator Bryan. How many miles do your delivery wagons have 
 to cover or serve in the intermediate zone in the aggregate ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I would not like to say. I am not familiar enough 
 with them. 
 
 Senator Bryan. And your third or outer zone, as I understand, 
 covers a maximum of 15 miles of delivery ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Fifteen miles I should say would cover that ; for in- 
 stance, Chevy Chase is 5 miles— that is, the circle is. from the city, so 
 that my statements are more or less guesswork. I could get it for you. 
 
308 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, a 30 or 40 mile route on a rural delivery, 
 you mean, of course, a round trip? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. The 15-mile basis is your line, as I understand? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You said you went on scheduled time, or tried to. 
 I therefore ask you if you have certain definite routes for each time? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Oh, yes. We would run, for instance, from Four- 
 teenth to Eighteenth, from Pennsylvania Avenue to Florida Avenue. 
 That would be a territory, just a regular territory. Everything is 
 classified, and when we get busy we out up those routes. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You said there was nobody else in the business? 
 Nobody else could get in. Will you explain why that is? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Why, in the first place there is not room enough for 
 two to be in the business profitably. In the second place, in order 
 to protect our volume of business and justify our going to the ex- 
 pense of putting on the equipment, we have to make contracts, or 
 they have to make contracts with us; we bind ourselves with the 
 stores to give them the service over a given period and we would go 
 to the expense of equipment and capital necessary to take care of 
 them. If somebody else came along and a store was under contract 
 to us, they certainly could not get them until our contract expired, 
 and if there was anybody who was going to interfere materially and 
 commence to cut prices we would just have to meet their cut in- 
 dividually. Do you see my point? 
 
 Senator Bryan. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Each contractor would have to wait until his con- 
 tract expired. There is not room enough in the city of Washington 
 for two concerns. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I believe I asked you how many double teams you 
 have? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, we do not run double teams in the package 
 service. 
 
 Senator Bryan. At all ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Except on suburban routes. 
 
 Senator Bryan. How many have you there ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I could not state off-hand, Senator. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Not as many as 10 ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I do not think there are as many as 10 on the 
 suburban routes. They fluctuate according to the season of the year. 
 
 Senator Bryan. My object in asking that was to get at the value 
 of the equipment. It seems to me it would be under the estimate 
 you made; certainly not exceeding $50,000, including rent for stables 
 and central stations or depots. 
 
 The Chairman. The $50,000 simply includes equipment itself, and 
 does not include $200 per. month rental for a stable or $5,000 maxi- 
 mum rental for a depot. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Those figures are given in the rough. 
 
 Senator Bryan. A double team would cost not to exceed $1,000, 
 would it ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No. A single team. You have two horses in your 
 single team, and sometimes three. 
 
 Senator Bryan. What do you mean by a single team and a double 
 team ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. A double team is two horses working together. 
 
PARCEL POST. 309 
 
 Senator Bryan. You mean for each wagon you have? Every 
 single team ; they would each cost you a thousand dollars ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. For instance, if we changed two horses, the 
 other one is not worked. One works but half a day and is then 
 relieved. 
 
 Senator Bryan. But the double team would only be the extra 
 horse, would it not ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bryan. And the extra harness ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bryan. What is the average cost of the automobiles you 
 have in the service now ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Why, from about $2,500 to $3,000 for our light cars. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You say now your average daily business you esti- 
 mate to be from five to ten thousand packages. Has that increased 
 recently ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Our business has grown healthily all the time. 
 There has not been any specific increase coming along. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Was it as much last year as it has been during the 
 year 1911 ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I think it was, sir. Last year was a better business 
 year than this year. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Did you have as many teams last year as you have 
 this year ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Just about the same. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You think the business of last year was heavier 
 than the business of this year ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. The business was better last year, Senator. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Well, your business ; I mean the delivery business. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes; I think that the store business is what influences 
 our business; we are sort of a thermometer for the local business. 
 The total result in our business has been better this year than last. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I, of course, have reference only to the parcel- 
 delivery part of your business. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. What rate would you make to the Government for 
 delivery of packages within the free delivery system in the city, 
 fourth-class matter on an 11-pound maximum weight? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Would they require signatures at all on that, just 
 like their city mail deliveries? 
 
 The Chairman. Just the packages, the fourth-class matter. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Would it require signatures ? 
 
 The Chairman. No. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. If you put it in the form of a business proposition, 
 I would have to go back at you and ask you how many packages you 
 were going to give us. 
 
 The Chairman. I would return to you and ask you to estimate the 
 volume of business yourself and submit the bids. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, we would be glad to do it. 
 
 The Chairman. What bid would you be willing to make and take 
 a chance on ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Of course, if it did not amount to a great deal, we 
 would not be taking much chance if we were out of the way in our 
 price, but if it amounted to a considerable volume that would entail 
 much increase in equipment we would have to get the rate right. As 
 
310 PAKCEL, POST. 
 
 the minimum rate is 5 cents, if the volume was large enough; we 
 could maintain that minimum rate for the Government. 
 
 The Chairman. Of 5 cents for the city delivery? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And 10 cents for rural delivery? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. For rural delivery, and with the rural delivery rate 
 we consider the Government's amount of business around Washing- 
 ton so light it would not have any material effect. It is more the ob- 
 ject of doing it for the Government than making any money out of it. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, Mr. Newbold, if you have any suggestions 
 to make to the committee, which you think would be of value to us 
 in this inquiry, which is particularly in reference to the extension 
 of the parcel-post system, fourth-class mail matter, we would be very 
 glad to receive them. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, I do not know that I have any particular 
 suggestions, except in this respect: That in making a rural-delivery 
 district for the delivery of packages, I should imagine that it would 
 be very hard for the Government to define their territory and to 
 arive at any proper cost. For instance, you would go all the way 
 from here to Baltimore, likely, if you put on a parcel-post system. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, let us start with this: We have to-day a 
 limited parcel post in the United States, general in character, 4- 
 pound weight limit, and a cent an ounce po-tage. We have got 
 that in operation. Now, suppose that the weight limit was increased 
 to 11 pounds, and suppose that the postage was decreased to, say, 
 three-quarters of a cent an ounce, instead of a cent an ounce? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. That would be 12 cents for a pound of 16 ounces. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. Now, given that condition, it would not 
 affect you at all as a contracting party with the Government, if you 
 were only to handle the delivery portion of that business, except so 
 far as the increase of the business might be. Now, the greater the 
 volume of business, the cheaper you can handle it and the greater 
 vour profits, providing your contract is made on a per cent basis. 
 That is true, isn't it? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes. Now, take the point, for instance, you go out 
 on the Conduit Road, out toward Great Falls and Cabin John 
 Bridge ; I supose it costs us 30 cents or more for every package that 
 we deliver out there. We can not discriminate, for the stores which 
 require a delivery out there, but we can not make any money out of 
 it._ Now, if the Government had a great many of those on the out- 
 lying districts, those scattered far-away points to make delivery 
 to, their expenses would run up proportionately, and at some points 
 it mis-lit cost you a dollar to go to, in time and service. 
 
 The Chairman. But that volume of business would hardly be 
 appreciable, and you would not take it into your calculations in 
 arriving at a basis for a contract, would you ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We would take into consideration our points of 
 delivery. We have to go to any old place, covering a certain circle 
 around the city of Washington, around a 15-mile air line. 
 
 The Chairman. You have to do that, with your contract with the 
 stores ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No ; indeed. Oh, no. There are many points yon 
 might be called to go to that would be a waste of time, energy, and 
 money to reach. I imagine that the Government would have to 
 adopt a general broad principle of suburban delivery. 
 
PARCEL POST. 311 
 
 The Chaieman. Suppose they only utilized their own machinery 
 for a rural delivery where it existed and would be willing to make, as 
 you aave already expressed, a 5-cent-per-package rate in city deliveries 
 with the Government, you would feel justified in even shading that? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No ; I beg your pardon. 
 
 The Chairman. That would be the minimum at which you would 
 feel justified to contract ? " 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Absolutely, sir. That is right down on cost lines, 
 you know. 
 
 The Chairman. And you do not believe that the Government 
 itself, given their present equipment, could handle that at 5 cents per 
 package as well as you can? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I do not think so. 
 
 The Chairman. You would expect to make a very limited profit 
 on a 5-cent basis ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I would. We would not figure in making anythin 
 at the 5-cent basis. We would make it off of the 6, 7, 8, 9, and 1< 
 cent package rate that would come in conjunction with that. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean with private business? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. We are paying with the cost, you understand. You 
 are maintaining your costs and you are able to carry your overflow 
 that has a profit in it. 
 
 The Chaieman. But your overflow would come from your private 
 individuals ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No. 
 
 The Chairman. You are not including any overflow in your cal- 
 culations from the Government itself? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose Washington was 10 times as large as it 
 is in population? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. It would cost more to deliver. 
 
 The Chairman. Then in your estimate of 5 cents you make no 
 calculation of cost of depots. The only calculation you make in 5 cents 
 is deterioration in plant and the cost of maintenance and operation ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Operation and maintenance are the two principal 
 features. You see, if your city grew to such an extent that you had 
 to put in several such stations and clear from those substations, your 
 costs might be greater itself on the same theory. I have heard argu- 
 ments concerning the telephone companies along those lines, that 
 the bigger the system the greater the cost it is to them. That sounds 
 funny, but they contend absolutely that it is true, and I can see how 
 it would be true in our business. 
 
 The Chairman. What would be the limit, then, of the size of the 
 city for you to feel justified to make a 5-cent contract ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Well, the city limits, as we have them now, are 
 well filled up. Of course, if the city grew to fill up the entire Dis- 
 trict we could not operate as well as we do now. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you would have to raise your price? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Unquestionably. 
 
 The Chairman. Because you increase your radius of delivery? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. That is the point. You see, you can operate from a 
 certain central point over 12 or 15 miles in a city. It is just like 
 taking a bite out of a piece of cheese. You come away up here to 
 
 21845— vol 2—12 4 
 
312 PARCEL POST. 
 
 that point and you can go back, but if you try to run that to a certain 
 point you might have to break a part of that territory so that it 
 might entail two in there, neither one of which would be filled to 
 the limit. That would increase the cost very materially. Do you 
 see my point on that? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. You can carry it up to - its maximum distance, but 
 the endurance of that equipment is only so much up to that point. 
 
 The Chairman. Then your calculation of five cents is based en- 
 tirely on a 15-mile radius, is it? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No: that 15-mile radius is a suburban rate. You 
 mean the city rate? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; cv a 7|-mile air-line radius. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. It is not exactly an air-line radius, because this is 
 the modus operandi. 
 
 Senator Bryan. If it were not for the fact that you were in the 
 business already you could not afford to do it at that rate? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. No. 
 
 Senator Bryan. What would be your idea that a private enter- 
 prise could afford to take the business of New York and handle it 
 there through a series of subdepots or stations ? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I do not think they could begin to do it, Senator, 
 at the cost that we have under our system here. In the first place, it 
 is a hard business to work on; hard to work out a system, and system 
 i? the life of the business. Now, to get a layout of a district and to 
 get the price that would operate your equipment with a profit, the 
 chances are that until you cultivated -the business and got the general 
 public educated up to a certain point of view to the volume, it would 
 be hard to estimate what your volume of business woidd be, and you 
 would have to go up to it; in other words, your amount of profit 
 would be so small at the start that the price would have to be high 
 and brought down. They could not start, as we have got it, and 
 work up; they would have to work from the top down grade. In 
 my parcel-delivery service I had a manager and an assistant manager 
 who was being trained up to take his place, and another man out of 
 the same department who left and went over to Baltimore and went 
 into business there. This summer I came over from London and saw 
 that these boys had left. They thought they knew the business thor- 
 oughly and went over there to enter into it. I wished them well, for 
 they do not interfere with my business, but I did not like their 
 method of going away, but at the same time I wished them success. 
 However, I have given them a year to continue in the business. 
 They have started in a small way, and it is wise for them to do so. 
 They have the system and the idea, but I do not believe they will 
 make money out of it. In other words, there is so little in it until 
 you can work up a big business. 
 
 The Chairman. The profits are deferred? 
 
 Mr. Newbold. Yes ; you can not work it out of that individual ii 
 question. 
 
 The Chairman. This has been very interesting, Mr. Newbold, and 
 we are very much obliged to you. 
 
 Mr. Newbold. I will be very glad to have you come down, Senator, 
 ■to our place on E Street, and if we can give you any information, we 
 will be glad to do so. 
 
 The Chairman. Thank you. We are very much obliged. 
 
PAECEL POST. 313 
 
 TESTIMONY OF HON. DAVID J. LEWIS. 
 
 The Chairman. It will be necessary that you first be sworn, Mr. 
 Lewis. 
 
 (Hon. David J. Lewis was thereupon duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. You are a Member of the House of Bepresent- 
 atives, are you not, Mr. Lewis ? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Eepresenting the sixth district of Maryland? 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Yes, sir. Mr. Chairman, I wish to present, for the 
 consideration of the committee, the following study, entitled, "A 
 System of Postal Express — Are Parcel-Post Schemes Adequate? — 
 What Shall We Do with the Express Companies, Their Prohibitive 
 Eates and Inadequate Service?" 
 
 Mr. Lewis. Gentlemen of the committee, the country owes you 
 its emphatic approval for giving your already overburdened time 
 and energies to the subject of packet and express transportation. 
 It is probably exactly correct to say that the subject has never 
 received in this country a thorough canvass; and I regard the cir- 
 cumstances of the investigation before this body as especially pro- 
 pitious. I say this because when this committee announces the 
 conclusions it may reach it will speak with the voice of authority. 
 It should, therefore, consider the subject, and it should speak. 
 
 Immediately my official duties began this subject seemed to make 
 the most pressing demands upon attention, and as a result I have 
 endeavored to give it the degree of consideration which the im- 
 portance of the subject required. I may have some qualification 
 for the work, if not that of a railway manager, for I have long 
 made the subject of transportation economics a favorite study. 
 
 It may facilitate the presentation of my matter if I indicate in a 
 topical way the features of the subject I mean to discuss. There 
 are two main divisions, the passenger-express business and a system 
 of fast-freight express. The first division comprises the following 
 features : 
 
 Necessity for express service : Important elements of an adequate 
 
 Present prohibitive charges. system — Continued. 
 
 Abnormal conditions involved in Transportation practices and the 
 
 express rate making. small shipment. 
 
 Development of traffic by normal Elimination of transportation ae- 
 rates, counting. 
 
 Compelling railways to perform Maleconomy of present express : 
 
 express function. Savings under postal unification 
 
 Regulation of express company and management, 
 
 rates. Comparative costs of operation. 
 
 Inadequate parcel-post schemes. The rate declension in the express 
 
 Parcel post. traffic : 
 
 General remarks. Square-root formula for lengthen- 
 
 Important elements of an adequate ing hauls, 
 
 system : Average express rates : 
 
 Collect and delivery, cost. Feasible express rates under pos- 
 
 Express contracts in re railway tal unification, 
 
 pay. Express-railway pay, the amount : 
 
 Purchasing the contracts, etc. Method of postal express railway 
 
 Public-service motive. pay. 
 
 Elastic rates and proficient rate Miscellaneous remarks, 
 makers. 
 
314 PARCEL POST. 
 
 NECESSITY FOE AN ADEQUATE SYSTEM OF EXPRESS. 
 
 In addition to those grave needs for such a service which the 
 majority of nations have recognized, domestically and internationally, 
 there exist in the United States supplementary reasons which render 
 the institution uncommonly necessary. 
 
 Briefly summarized, they are: 
 
 (a) The greater area over which our population is distributed, 
 which consumes so much time by freight that a fast or express service 
 needs to be resorted to in a larger number of instances than if the 
 journey were short. 
 
 (b) The minimum charge in railway practice and the inadapta- 
 bility of railway methods to diminutive consignmenta 
 
 (c) Absence of railway " collect and delivery " service and absence 
 of " collect and delivery " service by express companies as to our 
 farming population and a large portion of our urban population. 
 
 (e) Incalculable waste of transportation effort, in movement of 
 necessaries of life from the farms to points of consumption, a serious 
 factor in our high cost of living. 
 
 The need for fast service will depend upon the greatness of the 
 distance, when demand is immediate, as much as upon the valuable 
 or perishable character of the shipment. In our country, with an 
 average haul for freight of 251 miles, from three to ten times as long 
 as Europe, the demand for speed to overcome the time lost in dis- 
 tance is correspondingly increased; and so the disadvantages of 
 inadequate or uneconomical express service are vital. The railway 
 organization of America, and its system of practice, does not seem 
 adapted to meet this great need; while its fee minimum, and its 
 refusal to accept a smaller payment than .the rate for its minimum 
 shipment of 100 pounds, precludes it from this service, even if speed 
 were not prerequisite. The minimum charge of 25 cents (average, 
 27 cents) imposes an equally substantial restriction upon the express 
 service as now conducted; so that when it is considered that the 
 farmers or nonurban, about half of our population, are virtually 
 excluded from the service, and the express rates by their prohibitive 
 costliness substantially minimize the service for the urban popula- 
 tion, it is apparent that, instead of possessing an express service com- 
 mensurate with its needs, the United States suffers from both unex- 
 ampled necessity for and unexampled deficiency in its dispatch or 
 express agencies. Add to this situation the tremendous waste, and 
 corresponding costliness, of the unorganized country-to-towri trans- 
 portation of our necessaries, and such almost equally wasteful and 
 costly express service as we have, and have we not put a finger on one 
 of the leaks which swallow so much of the unprecedented productive- 
 ness of our country ? 
 
 PROHIBITIVE EXPRESS CHARGES. 
 
 We should expect express charges to be higher per ton here than 
 abroad — as much higher as our freight-per-ton charges. But no 
 necessary economic cause is known which justifies a substantially 
 higher proportion or ratio of the express to the freight charges here 
 as compared with other countries. The average express charge per 
 ton here is shown to be $31.20, while the average freight charge is 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 
 315 
 
 $1.90 per ton, giving a ratio of the express charge to the freight 
 charge of 16 (16.42) to 1. This express charge includes the cost of 
 such collect-and-delivery service as is rendered, covering, it is thought, 
 about 90 per cent of the traffic. In the table now inserted the element 
 of the expense of the express companies for collecting and delivering, 
 amounting to 11.50 per cent, is excluded, because many of the coun- 
 tries do not include this factor of cost. The table embraces 10 coun- 
 tries, while the specific data upon which the ratios are based are set 
 forth in Appendix B. All countries have been included where the 
 express data is clearly distinguishable from general freight statistics. 
 
 Ratios of average express charges to average freight charges in 11 countries. 
 
 Countries. 
 
 Argentina... 
 
 Austria 
 
 Belgium 
 
 Denmark 
 
 France 
 
 Germany 
 
 Hungary 
 
 Netherlands. 
 
 Norway 
 
 Prussia 
 
 Average for 10 countries . 
 United States 
 
 Average 
 express 
 charge 
 per ton. 
 
 S6.51 
 3.77 
 
 M.92 
 5.49 
 6.88 
 3.80 
 3.08 
 2.43 
 1.90 
 4.32 
 
 Average 
 freight 
 charge 
 
 per ton. 
 
 SI. 95 
 .74 
 .53 
 
 .87 
 .95 
 
 .70 
 .93 
 .07 
 .49 
 .80 
 
 27.61 
 
 Ratios of 
 average 
 express 
 
 to 
 freight 
 charges. 
 
 3.2 to 1 
 5. to 1 
 
 19.3 to 1 
 
 6. 3 to 1 
 7. 2 to 1 
 5. to 1 
 3.9tol 
 3. 6 to 1 
 3. 8 to 1 
 5. to 1 
 
 5. 23 to 1 
 14. 53 to 1 
 
 1 Belgium delivers parcels. 
 
 Ratio express tonnage. 10 countries, to freight tonnage 1.060 
 
 Rario express tonnage in United States to freight tonnage 0.517 
 
 Batio express receipts, 10 countries, to freight receipts 5. 890 
 
 Ratio express receipts in United States to freight receipts 7. 770 
 
 Normal revenue ratio for United States as per express receipts above 2. 460 
 
 Excess of American express receipts (216 per cent) 5.316 
 
 From this table it appears that while Argentina charges three 
 times, Austria five times, Belgium nine times. Denmark six times, 
 France seven times. Germany (including Prussia) five times, 
 Hungary, the Netherlands, and Norway about four times as much 
 for carrying a ton of express as of freight, the express companies of the 
 United States charge nearly fifteen times as much, excluding the 
 cost of their collection and delivery. 
 
 No further statement need be made to show that the charges of 
 American express companies are prohibitively excessive and such as 
 to disqualify this service as a transportation agency. The instances 
 given represent matter carried by passenger trains in all instances, 
 and while higher charges for both the express and freight tonnage in 
 America are justified, there is no necessary economic reason for a 
 higher ratio of express charges to freight charges. The presence of 
 the express company is the only circumstance distinguishing express 
 transportation here" from that of the instances cited. In those the 
 express company has no part ; the work is done by the railways. As 
 we shall see later, the deficiencies of the express companies are con- 
 stitutional, not gratuitous merely, and are such as can not be remedied 
 through corporate agencies. 
 
316 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
 PAUCITY OP 1 TRAFFIC. 
 
 It is believed that a great increase of the traffic would result from 
 the reduction of the rates and the extension of the service beyond the 
 cities to the country. That the traffic is now laboring under a radical 
 restriction of volume because of the inhibitory charges and the ex- 
 clusion of the rural population becomes apparent when compared 
 with the express traffic in other countries. A table is now inserted 
 giving comparative data in this respect (see Appendix T) : 
 
 Ratios of express to freight traffic in several countries. 
 
 Countries. 
 
 Rut ios of 
 express 
 
 to 
 freight. 
 
 Per capita. 
 
 Express. Freight, 
 
 Argentina 
 
 Austria 
 
 Belgium 
 
 France 
 
 Germany 
 
 Hungary 
 
 Average (except United States) 
 United States 
 
 1 to 64 
 
 1 to 97 
 
 1 to 82 
 
 1 to 53 
 
 1 to 113 
 
 1 to 84 
 
 Pounds. 
 165 
 117 
 199 
 141 
 140 
 
 Tom. 
 5.34 
 
 5.63 
 8.16 
 3.74 
 7.99 
 2.77 
 
 1 to 82 
 1 to 165 
 
 5.61 
 8.15 
 
 EXPRESS-RATE MAKING IN THE UNITED STATES. 
 
 The contracts of the express companies with the railways pro- 
 vide for paying the railways by means of a flat percentage of each 
 charge the express company collects from the shippers. In 1909 the 
 railway percentage was shown to be 47.53 of the average rate. With 
 the exception that the contract requires that the express rate shall 
 not be less than 150 per cent of the freight rate on the like com- 
 modity, the railway has nothing to do with the formal processes of 
 express-rate making. Since, however, each package must account 
 with the railway for its percentage, each package rate must be 
 loaded for railway compensation according to the percentage pro- 
 vided in the contract. In making an express rate the express-rate 
 maker has to keep in mind the fact that 47.50 per cent of the rate 
 he may make goes to the railway and 52.50 per cent to the express 
 company. However different the proportion may be according to 
 service standards, the contractual percentages remain obdurate, and 
 the express-rate maker, unlike his brother in freight-rate making, 
 must observe the procrustean conditions of his contractual bed. He 
 must so make his rate that in no instance will the .express percentage 
 offend against the mandatory law of express cost on a short journey 
 and light packages, and here an illustration may be given: 
 
 The average rate of the express companies for a 5-pound package 
 moving 36 miles is 27 cents. In making the rate, the rate maker 
 first considered the cost of the express company service. He found 
 it, let us say, to be 5 cents for delivery, 6 cents for general expense, 
 and then added 3 cents for profit — altogether 14 cents for the express 
 company. But under the railway contract the express company 
 is restricted to 52.50 per cent of the rate it fixes, and 47.50 per cent 
 of the proceeds of each rate must go to the railway. Accordingly, 
 the 14 cents computed is but 52.50 per cent of the rate he must fix; 
 that is, he must add the railway percentage of 47.50, or 13 cents, to 
 the express company's 14 cents, making a rate of 27 cents. This 
 
PABCEL POST. 317 
 
 13 cents on the 5 pounds for 36 miles equals $1.42 per ton-mile. But 
 on a 100-pound package for 36 miles the railway receives just 14 
 cents per ton-mile. If the 5-pound package simply paid the railway 
 what the 100-pound package does, proportionately, the railway would 
 get only 3 cents out of the 5-pound package and its rate would be 
 just 17 cents, instead of 27 cents. We have thus an abnormal rate 
 for the small package, with a consequence doubtless fatal to the 
 mobility of a large part of such potential traffic; conversely for 
 both small and large packages in making long-distance rates."^ Let 
 us take the coast-to-coast rates for our illustration. The rate from 
 New York to the Pacific coast points is $13.50 per 100 pounds. Here 
 the desirable value of the railway service must govern the rate 
 maker. The railways receive $6.41 for their part of this service ; and 
 who shall say that this is too much? But under the contract the 
 express-rate maker must consider this $6.41 as but 47.50 per cent of 
 the rate to be formed. Accordingly, he adds to the $6.41 the contrac- 
 tual express percentage— $7.09— and there results the $13.50 rate and its 
 destruction of an unknown percentage of the potential express traffic. 
 Stated in another way, we have: 
 
 Rate for 5 pounds, 36 miles : 
 
 Necessary express loading on $0.14 
 
 Contractual loading to pay railway" .13 
 
 Resulting rate . 27 
 
 Rate for 100 pounds, 3,000 miles: 
 
 Necessary loading to pay railway 6. 41 
 
 Contractual loading for express company 7. 09 
 
 Resulting rate 13. 50 
 
 In brief, the railway, on the small package and short journey, at 
 one extreme, secures ten times what it ought ; while on the other the 
 express company accomplishes the same result. At no point, per- 
 haps, does either get just what it ought to get for its part of the 
 service, unless it be on the statistical average package of 32.80 pounds 
 with its product of 51 cents. Meanwhile, perhaps, at no other point 
 does the merchandise package pay just what it ought to pay on serv- 
 ice standards. It must, under the contract, be either overloaded to 
 protect the express company or the railway. All this is certainly 
 true, even if the general financial results to the railways and the 
 express companies should go unchallenged. And who is to blame? 
 Manifestly the express railway contract. No other results are pos- 
 sible under its terms. The general results may have been highly 
 satisfactory to the express companies, - but to the railways and the 
 country the results simply signify a restriction of the quantum of 
 the express traffic to one-half or one-third of its normal volume. 
 Indeed, it is not improbable that the express railway contract is the 
 principal cause of the higher ratio (16.42 as against 5.23) of the 
 express to the freight charge here as compared with other countries. 
 It is apparent enough that the high express charge and the low ex- 
 press traffic coincide with the express railway contract only here. I 
 insert a table giving typical rates on an English railway where the 
 express service has not been contracted out. This table is significant 
 because its 100-pound rates are the same as the American 100-pound 
 rates ; but the absence of the express contract has enabled the railway 
 rate maker to give the smaller weights their relative rights. 
 
518 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Statement No. S. — Comparison of " graduated charges " for packages weighing 
 Jess than 100 pounds, as fixed by "official express classification No. 20" and 
 by the Midland Railway of England, xohere the rates per 100 pounds are the 
 same; "carrier's risk" in England; also the "owner's risk" scale of the 
 Midland Railway, covering samples and certain specified articles of merchan- 
 dise, some of which are classified as " general specials " in the United States. 
 
 Note.— The English "carrier's risk" scale covers "collection and delivery within the usual limits;" the 
 owner's risk" scale in*some cases provides for "collection and delivery," but in many instances limits 
 le service to either "collection " or " delivery " and on a few commodities covers only a "station-to-station" 
 Tvice. 
 
 "Weight. 
 
 pound... 
 pounds . . 
 pounds. . 
 pounds. . 
 pounds., 
 pounds . . 
 pounds . . 
 pounds., 
 pounds.. 
 I pounds . . 
 . pounds . . 
 ! pounds . , 
 ! pounds.. 
 ■ pounds . 
 i pounds . . 
 i pounds., 
 pounds.. 
 ; pounds . , 
 (pounds., 
 i pounds., 
 pounds.. 
 ! pounds . . 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds . . 
 pounds., 
 pounds. . 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds . . 
 pounds., 
 pounds. . 
 pounds., 
 pounds. . 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds. . 
 pounds. . 
 pounds . . 
 pounds., 
 pounds., 
 pounds. . 
 pounds.. 
 ) pounds . 
 
 
 
 
 Tariff rate per 100 pc 
 50 
 
 unds (cents). 
 
 
 
 
 25 
 
 rs 
 
 100 
 
 Eng- 
 
 United 
 
 English. 
 
 United 
 
 Eng- 
 ! lish 
 
 United 
 
 English. 
 
 lish 
 
 Car- 
 rier's 
 risk. 
 
 Own- 
 er's 
 risk. 
 
 8 
 
 Car- 
 rier's 
 risk. 
 
 Own- 
 er's 
 risk. 
 
 owner's 
 risk. 
 
 States. 
 
 1 States. 
 25 
 
 jowner's 
 j risk. 
 
 States. 
 
 8 
 
 25' 
 
 8 
 
 8 
 
 25 
 
 8 
 
 8 
 
 8 
 
 25 
 
 8 
 
 8 
 
 30 
 
 8 
 
 30 
 
 8 
 
 8 
 
 10 
 
 25 
 
 10 
 
 10 
 
 30 
 
 10 
 
 30 
 
 10 
 
 10 
 
 12 
 
 25 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 30 
 
 12 
 
 35 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 25 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 35 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 30 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 35 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 30 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 35 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 16 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 30 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 12 
 
 45 
 
 16 
 
 14 
 
 12 
 
 30 
 
 12. 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 12 
 
 45 
 
 16 
 
 14 
 
 12 
 
 30 
 
 12 
 
 12- 
 
 40 
 
 12 
 
 45 
 
 16 
 
 16 
 
 12 
 
 30 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 12 
 
 45 
 
 16 
 
 18 
 
 12 
 
 30 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 12 
 
 45 
 
 16 
 
 18 
 
 12 
 
 30 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 14 
 
 45 
 
 18 
 
 20 
 
 12 
 
 30 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 14 
 
 45 
 
 18 
 
 20 
 
 12 
 
 30 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 14 
 
 45 
 
 18 
 
 20 
 
 12 
 
 30 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 14 
 
 50 
 
 20 
 
 20 
 
 12 
 
 30 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 16 
 
 50 
 
 20 
 
 22 
 
 12 
 
 30 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 16 
 
 50 
 
 20 
 
 22 
 
 12 
 
 ,30 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 16 
 
 50 
 
 22 
 
 22 
 
 12 
 
 30 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 16 
 
 50 
 
 22 
 
 22 
 
 12 
 
 35 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 45 
 
 18 
 
 55 
 
 22 
 
 24 
 
 12 
 
 35 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 45 
 
 18 
 
 55 
 
 24 
 
 24 
 
 12 
 
 35 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 45 
 
 18 
 
 55 
 
 24 
 
 24 
 
 12 
 
 35 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 45 
 
 18 
 
 55 
 
 24 
 
 24 
 
 12 
 
 35 
 
 w 
 
 14 
 
 45 
 
 20 
 
 55 
 
 f» 
 
 
 26 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 14 
 
 50 
 
 20 
 
 60 
 
 f 1 
 
 
 26 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 ty 
 
 14 
 
 50 
 
 22 
 
 60 
 
 f 
 
 
 28 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 (') 
 
 14 
 
 50 
 
 22 
 
 60 
 
 P 
 
 
 28 
 
 . 12 
 
 40 
 
 (') 
 
 16 
 
 50 
 
 22 
 
 60 
 
 (' 
 
 30 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
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 16 
 
 50 
 
 24 
 
 60 
 
 
 30 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 (') 
 
 16 
 
 50 
 
 24 
 
 65 
 
 
 
 
 32 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 m 
 
 16 
 
 50 
 
 24 
 
 65 
 
 (> 
 
 
 32 
 
 12 
 
 4Q 
 
 18 
 
 50 
 
 26 
 
 65 
 
 f 1 
 
 
 34 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 to 
 
 18 
 
 50 
 
 20 
 
 65 
 
 (' 
 
 
 34 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 v) 
 
 18 
 
 50 
 
 28 
 
 65 
 
 f 1 
 
 
 36 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 f 1 ) 
 
 18 
 
 55 
 
 28 
 
 70 
 
 n 
 
 
 36 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 (1) 
 
 20 
 
 55 
 
 28 
 
 70 
 
 (i 
 
 
 38 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 8 
 
 -20 
 
 55 
 
 30 
 
 70 
 
 (i 
 
 
 38 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 20 
 
 55 
 
 30 
 
 70 
 
 (' 
 
 
 40 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 C 1 ) 
 
 20 
 
 55 
 
 30 
 
 70 
 
 s 
 
 
 40 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 8 
 
 22 
 
 60 
 
 32 
 
 75 
 
 
 42 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 22 
 
 60 
 
 32 
 
 75 
 
 II 
 
 
 42 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 ( i ) 
 
 22 
 
 60 
 
 34 
 
 75 
 
 
 44 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 p 
 
 22 
 
 60 
 
 34 
 
 75 
 
 (' 
 
 
 44 
 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 (> 
 
 24 
 
 60 
 
 34 
 
 75 
 
 /' 
 
 
 46 
 
 12 
 
 45 
 
 
 24 
 
 60 
 
 36 
 
 80 
 
 O 
 
 
 46 
 
 12 
 
 45 
 
 V? 
 
 24 
 
 60 
 
 36 
 
 80 
 
 (> 
 
 
 48 
 
 12 
 
 45 
 
 v) 
 
 24 
 
 60 
 
 36 
 
 80 
 
 f 
 
 
 48 
 
 14 
 
 45 
 
 (1) 
 
 26 
 
 60 
 
 38 
 
 80 
 
 f> 
 
 
 50 
 
 14 
 
 45 
 
 8 
 
 26 
 
 60 
 
 38 
 
 80 
 
 f> 
 
 
 50 
 
 14 
 
 50 
 
 26 
 
 65 
 
 40 
 
 85 
 
 r> 
 
 
 52 
 
 14 
 
 50 
 
 v) 
 
 26 
 
 65 
 
 40 
 
 85 
 
 (> 
 
 
 52 
 
 14 
 
 50 
 
 W 
 
 28 
 
 65 
 
 40 
 
 85 
 
 <i 
 
 
 54 
 
 14 
 
 50 
 
 (1) 
 
 28 
 
 65 
 
 42 
 
 85 
 
 < l 
 
 
 54 
 
 14 
 
 50 
 
 w 
 
 28 
 
 65 
 
 42 
 
 85 
 
 n 
 
 
 56 
 
 14 
 
 60 
 
 y) 
 
 28 
 
 70 
 
 42 
 
 90 
 
 (l 
 
 
 56 
 
 f 1 ) 
 
 50 
 
 w 
 
 (') 
 
 70 
 
 (') 
 
 00 
 
 (i 
 
 
 fi) 
 
 y ( 
 
 50 
 
 ( l ) 
 
 
 75 
 
 
 100 
 
 (l 
 
 
 w 
 
 Vc 
 
 50 
 
 w 
 
 w 
 
 75 
 
 flj 
 
 100 
 
 (I 
 
 
 w 
 
 v\ 
 
 50 
 
 W 
 
 W 
 
 75 
 
 H) 
 
 100 
 
 (l 
 
 
 (i) 
 
 w 
 
 50 
 
 w 
 
 « 
 
 75 
 
 (') 
 
 100 
 
 (' 
 
 
 (') 
 
 
 l 
 
 Pound r 
 
 ates. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 
 319 
 
 Statement No. S. — Comparison of " graduated charges " for packages weighing 
 less than 100 pounds, etc. — Continued. 
 
 Weight. 
 
 1 pound 
 
 2 pounds 
 
 3pounds 
 
 4 pounds 
 
 5, pounds 
 
 6 pounds 
 
 7 pounds ^ 
 
 8 pounds 
 
 9 pounds 
 
 10 pounds 
 
 11 pounds 
 
 12 pounds 
 
 13 pounds 
 
 14 pounds 
 
 15 pounds 
 
 16 pounds 
 
 17 pounds 
 
 18 pounds 
 
 19 pounds 
 
 20 pounds 
 
 21 pounds 
 
 I 22pounds 
 
 23 pounds 
 
 24 pounds 
 
 25 pounds 
 
 26 pounds 
 
 27pounds 
 
 28'pounds 
 
 | 29pounds 
 
 | 30,ppunds , 
 
 i 31pounds 
 
 32,jounds 
 
 33 pounds 
 
 34pounds 
 
 I 35pounds 
 
 ! 36 pounds 
 
 37 pounds 
 
 38 pounds 
 
 39 pounds 
 
 40 pounds 
 
 41 pounds 
 
 42 pounds 
 
 43 pounds 
 
 44 pounds 
 
 45 pounds 
 
 46 pounds 
 
 j 47 pounds .... 
 
 i 48 pounds 
 
 49 pounds .'_,', 
 
 SOpounds *..... 
 
 51 pounds 
 
 52 pounds . '.'.'.'.'. 
 
 53 pounds [ 
 
 54 pounds 
 
 ■. 55 pounds 
 
 66pounds 
 
 60pounds 
 
 70pounds 
 
 I j 80 pounds 
 
 90 pounds 
 
 ! lOOpounds 
 
 I 
 
 Tariff rate per 100 pounds (cents). 
 
 125 
 
 United 
 
 25 
 
 3d 
 
 35 
 
 35 
 
 40 
 
 45 
 
 45 
 
 50 
 
 50 
 
 511 
 
 55 
 
 55 
 
 55 
 
 55 
 
 55 
 
 60 
 
 60 
 
 60 
 
 60 
 
 60 
 
 65 
 
 65 
 
 65 
 
 65 
 
 05 
 
 70 
 
 70 
 
 70 
 
 70 
 
 70 
 
 75 
 
 75 
 
 75 
 
 75 
 
 75 
 
 80 
 
 SO 
 
 80 
 
 SO 
 
 80 
 
 90 
 
 90 
 
 90 
 
 90 
 
 90 
 
 100 
 
 100 
 
 100 
 
 100 
 
 100 
 
 100 
 
 100 
 
 100 
 
 100 
 
 100 
 
 110 
 
 110 
 
 125 
 
 125 
 
 125 
 
 125 
 
 Eng- 
 lish 
 owner's 
 risk. 
 
 P) 
 
 (») 
 
 United 
 States. 
 
 35 
 
 40 
 
 45 
 
 60 
 
 50 
 
 55 
 
 55 
 
 55 
 
 60 
 
 60 
 
 60 
 
 60 
 
 60 
 
 70 
 
 70 
 
 70 
 
 70 
 
 70 
 
 75 
 
 75 
 
 75 
 
 75 
 
 75 
 
 SO 
 
 80 
 
 80 
 
 80 
 
 80 
 
 85 
 
 85 
 
 85 
 
 so 
 
 85 
 
 00 
 
 00 
 
 00 
 
 90 
 
 90 
 
 100 
 
 100 
 
 100 
 
 100 
 
 100 
 
 100 
 
 100 
 
 100 
 
 100 
 
 100 
 
 102 
 
 104 
 
 106 
 
 108 
 
 110 
 
 112 
 
 120 
 
 140 
 
 150 
 
 150 
 
 150 
 
 Eng- 
 lish 
 car- 
 rier's 
 risk. 
 
 8 
 10 
 12 
 14 
 16 
 18 
 20 
 22 
 24 
 24 
 24 
 26 
 26 
 2S 
 38 
 30 
 30 
 32 
 32 
 34 
 34 
 36 
 36 
 
 P> 
 
 (') 
 
 ! ; > 
 
 h 
 (') 
 
 (1 ) 
 
 o 
 
 « 
 
 P) 
 (') 
 
 ') 
 
 ') 
 
 (') 
 
 200 
 
 United 
 States. 
 
 25 
 35 
 45 
 
 50 
 55 
 611 
 60 
 70 
 70 
 70 
 75 
 75 
 75 
 75 
 75 
 85 
 85 
 85 
 85 
 85 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 
 ion 
 ion 
 ino 
 mo 
 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 
 ?> 
 
 P) 
 
 English car- 
 rier's risk. 
 
 Except 
 to Scot- 
 land. 
 
 To 
 Scot- 
 land. 
 
 P) 
 P) 
 
 S 1 
 (>) 
 P) 
 
 0) 
 
 C 1 ) 
 
 
 P) 
 (') 
 P) 
 (') 
 P) 
 
 P) 
 
 P) 
 P) 
 P) 
 p) 
 P) 
 P) 
 P) 
 
 o 
 o 
 w 
 c) 
 w 
 
 <'} 
 
 o 
 
 P) 
 p 
 
 P) 
 
 United 
 States. 
 
 25 
 35 
 45 
 55 
 60 
 70 
 70 
 75 
 75 
 75 
 85 
 85 
 85 
 85 
 85 
 100 
 
 ioo 
 
 100 
 100 
 5 00 
 110 
 110 
 110 
 110 
 110 
 115 
 115 
 115 
 115 
 115 
 125 
 125 
 125 
 125 
 125 
 125 
 125 
 125 
 125 
 125 
 125 
 125 
 125 
 125 
 125 
 125 
 125 
 125 
 125 
 125 
 
 P) 
 
 P) 
 
 P) 
 
 P) 
 
 P) 
 
 ?} 
 
 P> 
 
 P) 
 P) 
 
 ' \%. 
 
 i Pound rates. 
 
320 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 INADEQUACY OF PBOPOSALS REGULATION. 
 
 It may be suggested that such inhibitory high charges may be 
 remedied by the regulatory action of the Interstate Commerce Com- 
 mission. While the express reports show that the profits of the com- 
 panies are clearly out of all proportion to the investment, they also 
 show that these profits were but 8.44, 9.17, and 6.70 per cent of the 
 gross receipts, or the average express charge, for the years, respec- 
 tively, of 1909, 1910, and 1911. If all the profits were taken away 
 the rate would not be substantially reduced ; while, of course, no such 
 a reduction would be asked of or considered by a Government 
 tribunal. A simple illustration of the regulatory function at work 
 on a transportation rate will suffice to show the inapplicability of 
 that method to the present express business. 
 
 The theory of rate regulation, applied to normal transportation 
 agencies, is that a system of rates yielding a definitely excessive per 
 cent of revenue may, by rate reduction, be correspondingly reduced. 
 Take the A & B Eailway. Its capital investment is $100,000,000, 
 its gross receipts $30,000,000, and its net earnings for dividends 
 $9,000,000 — that is, 30 per cent of its average rate is profits, which 
 yields 9 per cent profit to the capital invested. In such a case let it 
 be contended before the regulating commission that the rates should 
 be brought down to yield but a 6 per cent return on the investment; 
 a reduction of 10 per cent in the rates would, on the hypothesis, ex- 
 actly produce the. result. This is the case, on the average, with a 
 normal public utility, whether a gas, electric company, or a street or 
 steam railway; beoause in normal businesses of their character the 
 capital necessarily invested bears a substantial ratio to the amount 
 of business done and brings corresponding ratios of the net to the 
 gross receipts. The express company does not belong to this order. 
 As an intruder on the railway and postal functions, it requires prac- 
 tically no capital as compared with the business done. In 1909 its 
 investment in equipment, its only real capital, functionally con- 
 sidered, was but $6,403,125, while its gross receipts were nearly 8 
 per cent of the freight revenue of the United States, or $130,165,602 
 from the package business, 8.44 per cent of which alone was profit. 
 
 Suppose the commission were asked to reduce this profit to a nor- 
 mal return on the investment, leaving a net return, say, of 10 per 
 cent for the functional capital invested. Well, after allowing for the 
 portion of the reduction that would be borne by the railways (under 
 their percentage contracts with the express companies) the gross 
 profits of the express companies would be but $600,000 out of 
 $109,000,000, or one-half of 1 per cent of their gross receipts. Could 
 either the express company or the tribunal afford to act upon a 
 margin as close as this? To illustrate in another way: The weight 
 of the average package in 1909 was 33 (32.52) pounds, which 
 brought a gross rate of 51 cents. Of this 47.50 per cent was paid to 
 the railways, leaving a net profit to the express company of 4.25 
 cents in 1909, and 4.50 and 3.30 cents in 1910 and 1911, respectively, 
 on the average package, or a general profit on the business of 8.43 
 per cent, 9.17 per cent, and 6.70 per cent for the years named, but 
 yielding the companies more than 100 per cent returns on the real 
 investment for each year. What does all this mean ? Simply that, , 
 
PARCEL POST. 321 
 
 although securing utterly egregious returns on the investment, they 
 must rely for their profits on a percentage of the rate, or a margin 
 so small that they can not safely make it smaller and be sure of 
 any net return. The arithmetical margin of one-half of 1 per cent 
 would, if it came, give the 10 per cent return; but the slightest 
 unfavorable perturbation of the traffic might convert this favorable 
 margin into an unfavorable one, i. e., from a profit to a deficit. 
 
 But the difficulty of regulation does not end here. The ordinary 
 minimum charge of the express company is $13.50 on coast-to-coast 
 rates, out of each of which charges the railway receives its 47.50 per 
 cent, and the express company the remainder ; that is, 13 cents on the 
 small packages and short distance, and 26 cents on the average 
 package of 51 cents; and on the coast-to-coast rate $7.09 out of the 
 $13.50. _ Under the present methods of the express companies — their 
 accounting practices — it is somewhat doubtful if the company actu- 
 ally makes anything out of the 13-cent return on the small package 
 and journey. There is the delivery charge of about 5 cents, and gen- 
 eral expense of even more. It may be that it is only the formula of 
 "out-of-pocket expense," i. e., that on the whole, the expense of the 
 day would be as great without it as with it, that enables the company 
 to profit by this minimum charge. Thus as to the small package, 
 although its rate is really very exorbitant the reduction might be 
 justly resisted by the express company. Now we come to the coast- 
 to-coast charge, $13.50 per 100 pounds; and here the express com- 
 pany can have no justification for its exaction of $7.09 on this spe- 
 cific service. But the carrying railroad must be considered in this 
 instance, as its compensation, 47.50 per cent of the charge, is only 
 $6.41 for carrying 100 pounds from ocean to ocean. Is this railway 
 element of the gross charge too much? And yet the commission 
 can only operate on the published rate ; it can not reformulate the 
 
 > contracts between the express and railway companies, it is believed ; 
 
 } and to reduce the gross rate so as to give the express company just 
 what it should receive for the coast-to-cpast service would be to do 
 a gross injustice to the carrying railroad. Thus at either extreme, 
 the short distance or the long distance, because of the abnormal con- 
 ditions involved — that is, the alien presence of the express com- 
 pany — there is" some impregnable right, of either express company or 
 railway, to shield the offending condition from attack. 
 
 But in practice, even when the justification for a reduction is pres- 
 ent and the power and purpose active, the regulating board will 
 hesitate to substantially reduce a rate in the fear of unduly trenching 
 on private rights. It was this circumstance that Bismarck had in 
 mind when on a similar subject he spoke of — 
 
 The attempts to bring about reform by (regulatory) laws have shown the 
 ,, futility of hoping; for a satisfactory improvement through legal measures with- 
 ' out trenching materially on established rights and interests. 
 
 ■ "'. With a profit margin, now, of less than 7 per cent of the rate 
 - to work on, the Interstate Commerce Commission would feel this 
 ^ constraint in a marked way, for even recent experience has shown us 
 ; that the net return in a single year has shown a perturbation of 
 '.■ some five times, in amount, the just sum that should go as recompense 
 '■ to real express capital. Obviously regulation can neither attain a 
 i just express rate or limit express capital to a fair return for its use. 
 
322 PARCEL POST. 
 
 And this has been shown by the experience of nearly all the States 
 which have attempted it. Their reformed rates have been enjoined 
 by the courts, and on grounds of objection equally available against 
 action by the Interstate Commerce Commission. 
 
 COMPELLING THE RAILWAYS TO PERFORM THE SERVICE. 
 
 A number of persons, regarding the express company as a mere in- 
 truder in transportation, and reasoning a priori, suggest that the 
 remedy lies in an act of Congress abrogating the express-railway 
 contracts and excluding the express companies from the field ; at the 
 same time requiring the railways to perform the service. Granting 
 that such contracts may be so abrogated, it must be admitted that 
 this course would bring the railway express rates within the possi-. 
 bility of some species of regulation. The margin of profit would 
 then be the whole railway profit ; so that the package rate might be 
 slightly reduced without threatening disaster to the capital invested. 
 Practically, the whole express company profit could be taken out of 
 the rate, theoretically; for only a reasonable return on the eight 
 or ten millions of dollars of functional capital actually supplied by 
 express companies now, would be asked by the railways. Moreover, 
 the express-transportation pay, or element of the rate (47.53 per cent; 
 i. e. three-fourths of a cent a pound, on the average traffic), could 
 be then inquired into, and if found too great, reduction might simi: 
 larly be ordered. To sum up, under railway-express administration 
 the excessive express profit (6.70 per cent in 1911) might be elimi- 
 nated and the express railway pay reduced, possibly. These are the 
 only advantages, if such. The elements wanting, however, in the pro- 
 posal, are serious if not fundamental. Such a regime would neces- 
 sarily multiply the number of operating express agencies into the 
 number of railway companies now independently operating, i. e. over 
 a thousand. The probable result of such a change is perhaps, not- 
 overstated in the following extract from the letter of the president of 
 one of our largest railway systems. He says : 
 
 It is gravely to be doubted, if the railways as a rule, could transact the 
 { express) business so as to net as much out of it as the express company pays 
 them. 
 
 Assume that the roads radiating from Chicago should cancel their contracts 
 with the express companies and organize to handle small packages: The first 
 result would be an enormous economic waste in the duplication, triplication, and 
 quadruplication of terminal expenses. At present the collection and delivery 
 for a dozen roads is in the hands of one agency. Multiply this by the hundreds 
 of cities and towns where the same conditions would prevail and it is easy to 
 see that the eleven million of dollars of profit the express companies secure 
 might readily fall short of what the railroads would lose should they discard the 
 agency. 
 
 The problem is to get the package rate somewhere as diminutive 
 as the package. In order to do this the simplification and not the 
 multiplication of processes and agencies is the great essential. And 
 we shall see also in the treatment of " Transportation accountings,, 
 that a small package is now penalized to comparative extinction by 
 the complexity of processes and agencies, unavoidable in intercor- 
 porate relations, and which only a unification of the agencies and 
 simplification of the agencies and simplification of the process can 
 remove. 
 
PARCEL POST. 323 
 
 Another element wanting in the proposal is the complete absence 
 of a natural articulation of the railways with rural points. 
 
 Only the postal system now has the required agency, which! is 
 obviously the rural delivery. Nor could the railways be fairly re- 
 quired to enter into the work of supplying the need. The post 
 office can articulate the railways with rural and urban popula- 
 tion, while also relieving the small package of the burden of trans- 
 portation accounting. In. such a coordination the railways will be 
 only an element in the service, the locomotive one ; the moving con- 
 duits for the passage of the shipments from the consignor to con- 
 signee. The work of collection and delivery, and of caretaking be- 
 tween, are the main elements, and such as to require a single inter- 
 mediary (with its corresponding simplicity of relation and processes) 
 between the point of sending and that of receipt. 
 
 PARCEL-POST SCHEMES DIFFICULTIES AND INADEQUACY. 
 
 There remains to discuss the numerous proposals with 11-pound 
 limits and 4, 8, or 12 cent pound rates for the carriage of parcels 
 under the status quo of the postal-railway pay. At the present the 
 postal-railway pay is based on a flat distance standard, i. e., the 
 amount increases in exact proportion to the number of miles on like 
 aggregate weights. None of these bills propose any method of secur- 
 ing a declension in railway pay as the journey of the packages in- 
 creases, and under their operation the department would be paying 
 the railways in arithmetical proportion to the length of the haul, 
 i. e., about 300 times as much for a package going from coast to 
 coast as for a package going, let us say, just 10 miles to the next 
 station. These parcel-post proposals simply adopt in silence the 
 present method of postal-railway pay designed for letters where the 
 bulk and space requirements are the greatest known to transporta- 
 tion and which, moreover, only consumes about 24 per cent of postal 
 revenues. But the parcel traffic falls with the express and not let- 
 ters in these respects, and so on both operating and marketing rea- 
 soning such parcels require distinct rate treatment. 
 
 The average rate paid the railways by the express company in 
 1909, excluding the weight of equipment, was three-fourths of a cent 
 a pound; and the postal-railway pay per pound, also excluding 
 equipment, in 1908, was 4.06 cents. The postal haul for the latter 
 rate is 620 miles, while including postal equipment the haul was 
 but 435 miles, and the postal-railway pay 2.47 cents per pound. The 
 average haul of the express shipment is not definitely known ; but as 
 the freight haul here is 253 miles and elsewhere the express haul is 
 usually longer than the freight, it is assumed that our express haul 
 is not less than about 200 miles, or 196 miles as accepted in this study. 
 The express-railway and postal-railway pay differ most essentially 
 in another respect. While, as stated, the postal pay increases arith- 
 metically, the express-railway pay has a declension for increasing dis- 
 tances, under which, while, a 5-pound package pays at the rate of 
 $1.42 a ton-mile for a journey of 36 miles, for a journey of 3,600 
 miles the pay is about 4 cents a ton-mile, with an almost correspond- 
 ing declension for increasing weights on short distances. Since this 
 fact of declension is fundamental I shall feel justified in elaborating 
 its actual bearings upon the rates possible under properly consid- 
 ered parcel-post propositions. 
 
324 
 
 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 The method of express railway pay is to take the express waybills 
 one by one, find the gross charge, and pay the railway the percentage 
 fixed, from each package, according to the express-railway contract. 
 In 1909 the percentage amounted to 47.53 per cent on each package, 
 a little less than one-half the express charge, as an average for the 
 whole traffic. Thus, on a 10-pound package from Washington to 
 Baltimore, 40 miles, the express charge is 30 cents, and out of this 
 the express company credits the railway, on the average, with 14 
 cents, equaling $28 per ton- journey and 70 cents per ton-mile. From 
 Baltimore to Pensacola, Fla., 1,026 miles, the express rate is $1.10j 
 out of which the railway similarly receives 52 cents, equal to $104 
 a ton-journey and 10 cents a ton-mile. To Seattle from Baltimore, 
 3,02G miles, the 10-pound rate is $1.50, of which the railway receives 
 71 cents, or $142.50 per ton-journey and 5 cents (4.75) per ton-mile. 
 All of which means that there exists in the express traffic a principle 
 of declension, automatically reducing railway transportation pay 
 with the increase of the journey, a principle, as we shali see in a later 
 chapter, which is not only operatively just, but also necessary to se- 
 cure rates upon which articles can move to their natural market with 
 a profit, whether the distance be great or small. Meanwhile the 
 postal railway pay, including equipment, now averages 9 cents a 
 ton-mile, however small the package or however great the journey. 
 Its inflexibility, compared with actual express rates, especially on the 
 heavier weights, for longer distances, is shown as to 21 different dis- 
 tances comprised within the contour of the country, ranging from 36 
 to 3,600 miles, by the following table. The data for this table will 
 be found as Appendixes D and V. 
 
 Table showing rates of compensation per ton-mile paid the railways ly the 
 express companies on the contractual average bases of lfi.5 per cent of the 
 express " merchandise " rates, according to weight of package and distance 
 carried. 
 
 Miles. 
 
 5 
 pounds. 
 
 10 
 pounds. 
 
 20 
 pounds. 
 
 30 
 pounds. 
 
 40 
 pounds. 
 
 50 
 pounds. 
 
 60 
 pounds. 
 
 70 
 pounds. 
 
 80 
 pounds. 
 
 90 
 pounds. 
 
 100 
 pounds 
 
 36 
 
 SI. 42 
 1.09 
 .68 
 .54 
 .41 
 .35 
 .30 
 .26 
 .24 
 .21 
 .19 
 .16 
 .15 
 .12 
 .12 
 .11 
 .10 
 .10 
 
 $0.86 
 .59 
 .40 
 .32 
 .25 
 .21 
 .19 
 .16 
 .16 
 .14 
 .13 
 .11 
 .10 
 .09 
 .09 
 .09 
 .08 
 .07 
 .05 
 .05 
 .04 
 
 $0.42 
 .31 
 .22 
 .18 
 .15 
 .13 
 .12 
 .10 
 .10 
 .09 
 .09 
 .08 
 
 $0.36 
 .25 
 .18 
 .14 
 .12 
 .10 
 .09 
 .08 
 .08 
 .07 
 .07 
 .06 
 .00 
 .05 
 .05 
 .00 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .04 
 .04 
 
 SO. 29 
 .21 
 .15 
 .12 
 .10 
 .08 
 
 $0.25 
 .18 
 .14 
 .11 
 .09 
 
 $0.23 
 .18 
 .13 
 .11 
 .09 
 
 $0.20 
 .16 
 .12 
 .10 
 .08 
 
 $0.18 
 
 .14 
 .11 
 .09 
 .08 
 
 50.16 
 .12 
 .09 
 
 .OS 
 
 SO. 14 
 
 62 
 
 .11 
 
 100 
 
 .08 
 
 144 
 
 "~Hf 
 
 196 
 
 .07 
 .06 
 .06 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 .05 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 
 .06 
 
 255 
 
 .07 
 .06 
 .05 
 .06 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 .05 
 .05 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 
 .07 
 .06 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 .05 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 
 .07 
 .06 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 .05 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 
 .06 
 .06 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 .05 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 
 .06 
 
 320 
 
 .07 
 .07 
 .07 
 .06 
 .06 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .04 
 .04 
 .04 
 
 .OS 
 
 402 
 
 .05 
 
 484 
 
 .OS 
 
 576 
 
 .05 
 
 677 
 
 .05 
 
 787 
 
 .04 
 
 905 
 
 — ■w 
 
 .06 
 .00 
 .06 
 .06 
 .06 
 .05 
 .04 
 .04 
 
 .04 
 
 1,030 
 
 1,151 
 
 1,297 
 
 1,450 
 
 1,597 
 
 .04 
 .04 
 .05 
 .04 
 .04 
 
 2,500 
 
 3,136 
 
 3,652 
 
 .06 
 .05 
 .04 
 
 .04 
 .04 
 
 .04 
 
 Note.— The like ton-mile compensation to the railways for postal purposes now averages 9 cents pe' 
 ton-mile for all weights and distances. 
 
 Down to the line drawn diagonally across the table the express railway pay on merchandise P"**" 
 exceeds the amount which the Government would have to pay under present postal-railway compen* 
 tion laws. Below the line, a parcels tra Fie being added, the Government would have to pay 8 cents » 
 ton-mile, and the express companies as much less as the figures in the table indicate. 
 
PARCEL POST. 325 
 
 It will be observed that at about 905 miles the declension in ex- 
 press-railway pay substantially reaches a stationary point at 4 cents 
 a ton-mile. From 36 miles up to this point the railway pay, per 
 journey, increases approximately as the square root of the number 
 of miles of the journey ; that is it doubles as the journey quadruples 
 in length. From 905 miles on, the express railway pay itself be- 
 comes stationary or rather increases arithmetically with the mileage, 
 like the postal-railway pay. This declension will be discussed again, 
 and is here simply denoted as the Talcott formula. 
 
 There is now inserted a table covering the same distances and 
 weights, giving actual express merchandise rates, and in parallel 
 columns feasible parcel-post rates, based on present postal railway 
 pay, with stated loadings for " collect and delivery " and " general 
 expense," as indicated at the ends of the columns, the sufficiency of 
 which is later considered. The rate adopted for postal-railway 
 transportation of the parcels is uniformly 8 cents a ton-mile, which 
 equals 1 cent a pound for a 250-mile journey. The average now 
 paid the railways for letters, etc., is 9 cents a ton-mile, under a sliding 
 scale, by which the railway pay declines per 1,000 pounds as the 
 daily weights increase on the particular railway. The data sup- 
 portive of the loadings for transportation, 8 cents a ton-mile, is set 
 forth in Appendix V. The effect of adding any considerable parcels 
 weight to the mail will be to reduce this average pay of 9 cents to 
 8 cents a ton-mile, about the possible minimum ; and so, if the load- 
 ings given for " collect and delivery " and " general expense " are 
 fair approximations of the costs of these services the parcel-post 
 rates here given may be accepted as entirely feasible. 
 
326 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
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PARCEL POST. 327 
 
 If it be accepted that the express rates ought not to exceed about 
 ,one-half of the present express charges (a deduction more than sup- 
 ported by the experience elsewhere), then the underscored lines in 
 the table denote the distance limits for the several weights at which 
 the feasibility of a parcel post, predicated on present postal-railway 
 pay, ceases to be desirable. If the rates that will move the greatest 
 volume of marketable traffic are also the rates which tend to produce 
 as well the highest economy of movement and the best revenue, a 
 Government acting for national objects should not lend its approval 
 to a rate structure so high as to defeat these objects. Accordingly, 
 it is submitted, that on present postal-railway pay and its inflexible 
 flat rate the whole country can not be embraced by rates that are at 
 once sufficiently low and yet wholly self-supporting. 
 
 I give up the man who would ignore distance in making parcel 
 rates — the 4 or 8 cent a pound man and his 11-pound limit. He sim- 
 ply refuses to understand the problems involved. He refuses to con- 
 sider the shipper's right (on short distances) to pay simply for what 
 he gets, and get that for which he is willing to pay, while (on long 
 distances) he threatens to mulct the Government in a transportation 
 deficit. As it will cost 1 cent a pound for 250 miles, so it will cost 
 12 cents a pound for 3,000 miles, and 14 cents a pound for 3,500 miles 
 for the mere element of transportation, and any flat rate must cheat 
 the shipper on the short journey and cheat the Government on the 
 long jqurney, saying nothing of its killing effect on the short-journey 
 traffic, embracing nearly the whole business. The average of 253 
 miles for the freight haul roughly indicates the normal mobility of 
 the traffic, and while all distances should be considered and embraced 
 with a view to both economic and national policy, making the short 
 journey pay for the long journey, or robbing Peter to pay Paul, can 
 only make beggars of them both. 
 
 THE RETAILER. 
 
 It is in this state of things, the persistent and uninformed ad- 
 vocacy of like rates for all distances, and the arbitrary limitation of 
 the weight to 4 or 11 pounds, that the opposition of some of the retail 
 merchants begins. The flat rate seems designed in form to give the 
 great department store, the retailers' distant rival, an opportunity to 
 ship at the expense of the taxpayer, i. e., at rates insufficient to pay 
 for such service, at the same time that it exacts of the nearby mer- 
 chant a rate much above what is necessary. Thus outside of the 
 cost of collect and delivery and some general expenses which are prac- 
 tically the same whether the journey be long or short, the rate needs 
 be but about one-tenth of a cent a pound for 25 miles, while for 
 1,000 miles the transportation outlay would be 40 times as great. 
 Should the local merchant have to pay this difference merely to 
 gratify the flat-rate bungler, who prefers his simplicity to the more 
 painstaking adaptations necessary to be just to the public and the 
 -traffic? Moreover, the design to discriminate against the local mer- 
 chant seems to be shown in other ways than taxing him to pay for 
 his long-distance rival's shipments, and most obvious of these is the 
 restriction of the weight of the postal shipment to 4 or 11 pounds. 
 What can the purpose be in this ; is it not to make the privilege just 
 
 21845— vol 2—12 5 
 
328 PARCEL POST. 
 
 large enough to fit his patron and distant rival, and just small enough 
 to exclude him, the local retailer ? His business is in wholesale lots 
 100 pounds or more, with a cheaper rate incident thereto. If his 
 patrons and distant rivals are to have relief from the prohibitive 
 express charges, why is the weight limit j ust so arranged as to exclude 
 the local retailer ? Obviously, his right to relief from an intolerable 
 express situation is as meritorious as the right of others. It is con- 
 ceded that the high charge and inadequate service of the express 
 companies is the condition calling for remedy. But the retailer is 
 suffering as much as, or more than, any other class from this condi- 
 tion. Then why, the retailer justly asks, should he be excluded from 
 the relief the lawmaker is going to extend ? Why not have the weight 
 limit raised to include him as well as his patron, and rates based on 
 the cost of the service, according to distance and weight? We have 
 seen the small margin of rate profit at 'winch the express companies 
 are doing business. In 1911 it was just 6.70 per cent; therefore any 
 circumstance which takes away an integral part of their traffic, with- 
 out eliminating the express companies from transportation, must 
 force them to raise their rates on the remaining, i. e., the heavy- 
 weights traffic. The retailer stands to have his express rates raised, 
 not lowered, by such proceeding as a consequence of the 11-pound 
 limit. And instead of relief being granted him from the express 
 situation with the others, his rates may, indeed, be increased. 
 
 Whatever its motive, partiality is always likely to infliqt actual 
 injustice; and the partial remedy contained in these parcel-post pro- 
 posals for what is admitted to be the general evils and inadequacy 
 in our express conditions is no exception to this rule. In truth it is 
 impossible for either student or statesman to approach this matter 
 from either the economic or social angle without seeing that it in- 
 volves the whole express subject, and should be so treated. A solu- 
 tion that will make the express rates just for all is the solution re- 
 quired by all interests. The citizen is as much entitled to have the 
 remedy sufficient for this purpose as he is to have equality before the 
 law. The full remedy, embracing net merely just rates but an 
 articulation of the railways with the country stores, can not be less 
 than a great forward step in transportation; and he who opposes 
 himself to such improvement is merely parting company with civ- 
 ilization, and civilization in turn can only leave him behind. 
 
 GENERAL REMARKS. 
 
 Other difficulties in such limited remedies for the express situation 
 need only be suggested : 
 
 (a) The postal system would have to install urban delivery 
 wagons at a cost its traffic would not justify, with but a part of the 
 package business. 
 
 (&) The express companies still in the fields, the wastes of service 
 would be increased, and the people have to pay all. 
 
 (c) The Government, as a moral agent, with an inelastic rate as 
 proposed, would be at the mercy of its unrestrained express com- 
 petitors. 
 
 (d) The contracts of the express companies with the railways per- 
 mit the former to make rates as low as 150 per cent of the freight 
 rate; automatically reducing express-railway pay to any point, in 
 
PARCEL, POST. 329 
 
 effect, which they might do to cripple the postal department in given 
 instances. Thus the Government might have to pay three or four 
 times as much for transportation as the express companies. 
 
 IMPORTANT ELEMENTS OF AN ADEQUATE SYSTEM. 
 
 For the sake of brevity I state the principal elements categorically : 
 
 (a) Fast service. 
 
 (b) The most extensive collect and delivery service, economically 
 feasible, requiring urban and rural agencies. 
 
 (c) The express-railway contracts to secure the necessary de- 
 clension in railway pay. 
 
 (d) Cheap capital and effective public service motive. 
 
 \e) Elastic rates, graduated to the differing and changing cost 
 of service, fitted to move traffic to natural market; departmental 
 expert rate makers for this purpose, and not law-made rates. 
 
 (/) Simplified administrative processes and methods ; and economy 
 of" single working organization. 
 
 (g) The hundred-pound weight limit to extend service to mer- 
 cantile interests, urban and rural, and enable service to move neces- 
 saries from farm or garden to consumers, and reduce the cost of 
 living. 
 
 With regard to the element of " fast service " it is now commonly 
 rendered by the railways for the express companies in connection 
 with the passenger service. There is now no fast freight service for 
 less than 100-pound lots ; but this feature is reserved for subsequent 
 consideration. 
 
 " COLLECT AND DELIVERY." 
 
 It is obvious that one of the elements most wanting is the service 
 described as " collect and delivery," necessary between consignor 
 and railway at the beginning and railway and consignee at the con- 
 clusion of the act of transportation. Our country is utterly deficient 
 in this respect as to the " country " or farming population. In towns 
 of about 3,000 or 4,000 population and up, the express companies 
 do render this service for such traffic as their rates permit to move ; 
 but what is required is a service as extensive as the postal agency, 
 which reaches cities, towns, and country with the degrees of efficiency 
 of the urban and rural deliveries, conceded to far excel such delivery 
 as the express companies give. 
 
 There can be no doubt that with regard to this collect and delivery 
 the postal department is the only agency to which we can look for a 
 service sufficiently extensive to be really efficient. It only remains 
 to observe that with regard to the farming part of the country the 
 service already exists in the form of rural free delivery, equipped 
 and paid for, and actually waiting with empty wagons to receive 
 the traffic. 
 
 The best computations I have been able to make show that it costs 
 the express company about 17 mills per average pound, and an aver- 
 age of about 5f cents per package of 32.80 pounds for its pick up a*nd 
 delivery service. Other experience on the subject is that of the 
 New York merchants given at the 1911 hearing of the House Postal 
 Committee (pp. 104-105 and 301), to the effect that it costs them 
 an average of from 3^ to 4 cents per package (size and weight not 
 
330 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 limited) to deliver their sales within an area of 20 to 30 miles around 
 the city. 
 
 The familiar ice and milk agencies pcobably show the lowest cost 
 at which this service can be performed, with the value of article 
 delivered included in a 4 or 5 cent charge, and without return de- 
 liveries. In Germany delivery charges for packages per post on 
 schedule trips are 2£ cents for urban up to 11 pounds and 3J cents 
 up to 110 pounds ; while rural delivery is 2i cents for h\ pounds and 
 5 cents up to 110 pounds, with 22 cents for special rural delivery 
 and 10 cents for special urban delivery. In France the delivery 
 charge is 5 cents for packages up to 22 pounds. The expository 
 rates given for the United States begin with a minimum of 5 and 6 
 cents for packages of 10 pounds and under, of 7 cents from 10 to 
 20 pounds, and an additional cent for each additional 10 pounds up 
 to 100, or 15 cents per 100 pounds. We should accordingly be about 
 doubling the European charge and giving the Treasury a guaranty 
 of 50 per cent beyond the present expense to the express companies. 
 They, however, do not deliver to the country. But it is suggested 
 that this extra 50 per cent loading will cover such extra service, even 
 were it not already largely paid for in the form of rural free delivery. 
 Moreover, in the express expense for th'is purpose there is included 
 the wastes of " common points " service, where from two to eight 
 different express companies maintain their delivery service. It is 
 believed the loadings for collect and delivery would prove ample 
 as proposed. 
 
 POST OFFICE GENERAL EXPENSE. 
 
 A flat charge of 5 cents per package is made the loading to pay 
 this service. In the discussion of "Transportation accounting" I 
 have called attention to the very small service required in the re- 
 ception and tagging of the package. It is thought that 5 cents would 
 be sufficient to cover such cost and the postal attention in transit. 
 
 RAILWAY PAY AND THE EXPRESS CONTRACTS. 
 
 It is desirable that measures, taken to secure relief for the small 
 consignment, should not interfere with railway practices or methods. 
 As often as they are disturbed new problems are created, to say 
 nothing of the maleconomy which may follow to both agencies. And 
 so, even were it possible with respect to the individual railway, at 
 present, to ascertain the pound rate paid it by the express company, 
 it is a question whether it would be fair (or politically feasible) Jo 
 require the railway to give the Government the average rate for carry- 
 ing parcels, which it now gives the express companies, without taking 
 over the whole express function. While on its face it might seem 
 like merely asking for equal rates, as a matter of practice, it would-be 
 asking them to create and maintain an additional service ; that is, con- 
 duct two services, one for the postal department and another for the 
 express companies, at what would prove to be but a little or no in- 
 crease of gross compensation. Moreover, nearly all their contracts 
 With the express companies give the latter a contractual monopoly 
 of the service, and these contracts have been approved by the Su- 
 preme Court in express cases (117 U. S. Eep., p. 1). While the 
 
PARCEL POST. 331 
 
 Government might force a breach of these monopolies , in its own 
 favor, yet it is likely the courts would hold that such a proceeding 
 amounted to taking private property for public use, and that thu 
 Government would have to pay the express companies, perhaps, as 
 much as buying them out would cost. Hence the desirability of se- 
 curing the express-railway contracts by fair purchase, even though 
 compulsory. Moreover, the public should not be called on to main- 
 tain two packages transport systems. One is costly enough, and if 
 either one should give the economically desirable rates, the existence 
 of the other would be imperiled or destroyed. The present agency is 
 an entrenched monopoly. There is no competition even at common 
 points. Monopoly and a real public-service motive are necessary 
 to economical results. 
 
 Outside of the waste involved in maintaining two services, there 
 are very direct reasons why the express contracts should be secured. 
 The postal system requires them in order to obtain : 
 
 (a) The declension in express-railway pay, necessary for a desir- 
 able zone system. 
 
 (b) The numerous "depot" and storage privileges accorded the 
 express companies by the railways. 
 
 (o) Conservation of structural factors in the express institution 
 of intrinsically serviceable character. 
 
 (d) To avoid controversies and, perhaps, serious mistakes with the 
 railways incident to entirely new relations. 
 
 PURCHASING THE EXPRESS COMPANIES. 
 
 Hardly any person will question the wisdom of securing such ad- 
 vantages ; and certainly no one who faces the package-transport ques- 
 tion seriously will deny the advantages themselves. The depot priv- 
 ileges of the express company are simply indispensable to an efficient 
 and economical administration of the business. If the postal system 
 has to provide itself with these facilities by rent or purchase, it 
 would find the cost to be much greater than the purchase of the ex- 
 press contracts. But it is the history of the express company which 
 gives the real trouble here. The people do not object to paying for 
 what they require. It is the conviction that express capital does not 
 represent any actual investment, but, such as it is, is made up of 
 accumulated excess profits in the past. The moral antagonism to 
 paying them for that which they have unrighteously taken from the 
 people in excessive profits is the root of the opposition. It is the 
 same feeling which many entertained toward paying for the slaves' 
 emancipation. The feeling is morally sound, but we know now that 
 the cheapest way for the emancipator, and the best way for both 
 slave and master, would have been to recognize the commercial facts 
 by fair payment. 
 
 Fair payment, or " just compensation," does not mean a capitali- 
 zation of the express profits. If they have succeded in extracting 
 unjust profits this gives them no title to ask unjust " compensation." 
 Their unjust profits are now subject to be taken away by rate reduc- 
 tions by the Interstate Commerce Commission, and the Supreme 
 Court has decided that such profits may not be capitalized as against 
 the State. 
 
332 PARCEL POST. 
 
 In this connection it may be well to suggest that Congress is not 
 the agency, under the decisions, to which is given the power to deter- 
 mine the amount of the compensation to be paid for these properties. 
 That function is discharged by commissions and courts, and so in no 
 case can the question of the amount to be paid be settled by Congress. 
 
 Congress can, however, and it should, of course, approximate what 
 the gross cost would likely be ; and for legislative purposes this can 
 be sufficiently done by a reference to the general balance sheet of the 
 express companies, which is inserted as Appendix C. 
 
 An inspection of the balance sheet shows that the items which are 
 directly devoted to the service and really function as express com- 
 pany assets, are as follows : 
 
 Real property $14, 932, 169 
 
 Equipment 7,381,405 
 
 Materials and supplies 138,210 
 
 Advance payments on contracts 5,836,666 
 
 Franchises, good will, etc 10,877,369 
 
 Total invested capital 39,165,819 
 
 The balance sheet shows other assets of $147,055,554 not devoted 
 to the function and which are wholly separable from the express 
 service, per se, not necessary to be acquired, but which may be re- 
 tained by the companies without impairment of their values. For the 
 purposes of this measure the value of the rights to be acquired will 
 be treated for simplicity's sake as about $40,000,000 and the annual 
 postal interest charges as $1,000,000. The courts will at length de- 
 termine what, in detail, the compensation shall be, and the bill pro- 
 vides the machinery for determining the compensation according to 
 the usual proceedings in such cases. 
 
 ECONOMICAL CAPITAL. 
 
 With reference to this element the solution is easy. The credit of 
 the Nation is such that it can obtain its capital at a minimum cost, 
 and an interest rate of 2^ per cent, is predicated for the bonds 
 necessary to be issued for the payment of the express properties. 
 
 THE PUBLIC SERVICE MOTIVE. 
 
 In institutions, as with individuals, motive is everything. The 
 motive to serve one's self is the common motive, and to impose suffi- 
 cient restraint upon its operation, when too unsocial, is, stated in a 
 broad way, the principal object of government. There is much 
 illogical complaint in this respect against what are called "public 
 utilities." Their owners, who have invested their money with the 
 purpose of gain, are expected to behave differently from investors 
 in general. Of course they do not, but why should' we expect them 
 to? Because they have a monopoly it is argued. Well, this may im- 
 pose an inferential duty, yet who will say that it can have any de- 
 cisive influence upon the normal motive of the investor to gain all 
 he can ? 
 
 Where public needs and social considerations, as in this instance, 
 become the principal and dominating purpose, where imperative pub- 
 lic service is the object the world naturally has not yet found the re- 
 stricted private motive adequate to the work. To illustrate: If the 
 
PARCEL POST. 333 
 
 express companies were assured that by carrying 8,000,000 tons, at 
 $15 per ton, they would net $11,000,000 profit, but that by carrying 
 only 4,000,000 tons, at $30, they would as surely net $11,000,000, the 
 private motive would be at a standstill to determine which set of 
 rates to adopt. The slightest uncertainty as to whether the half 
 rates might produce 1 per cent less, would effectually incline it to the 
 smaller service and the surer net return. How differently the public 
 motive would act is seen in postal history. In a generation it has re- 
 duced the rate at home one-third, reduced it three-fifths to Great 
 Britain and Germany, and added city and country delivery to the 
 service. Not one of these great accomplishments would have been 
 conceived, even, by the private motive, or if conceived, been at all 
 practicable. It is apparent in this instance that the public motive 
 alone will secure the greatest economic service, and reliance upon, 
 what is for this purpose the inferior, private motive is simply un- 
 intelligent. It is only necessary to suggest the necessity for unity 
 of plan, purpose, and execution in order to obtain economical results. 
 
 ELASTIC RATES AND PROFICIENT RATE MAKERS. 
 
 One of the substantially justified boasts of American railway ad- 
 ministration has been that in spite of obstacles, and the admitted 
 evils of discrimination, taking their freight rates, in a larger view, 
 they have been so made as to move the products of the farm and the 
 factory to their natural market, when once gotten to the rail, and 
 usually with a profit to the producer. In order to do this there has 
 been for two generations an adaptation of the rate to what the article 
 will bear and move to its natural market. They could not have ac- 
 complished this, measurably well as they have, either on flat rates or 
 mileage distance rates, nor yet by charging each shipment a quanti- 
 tative proportion of the cost of the whole service. To adopt rates 
 that an article can not pay and move to its market with a profit is, in 
 effect, to deny the article the right of transportation; any univer- 
 sal rate, i. e., law-made rate, incapable of change with changing con- 
 ditions must, on this account, with respect to a large part of the 
 traffic, be prohibitive. The express companies have yielded some- 
 what to this consideration, for they have rates which will permit 
 given articles to move, as to which their merchandise rates would be 
 mere destruction. It is patent enough that law-made rates would be 
 too rigid, even if first rightly made. 
 
 It is only once in a generation that Congress commonly gives its 
 attention to a noncurrent subject; and as traffic conditions would 
 require almost constant adaptations of the rates in the interest of 
 the service and the public served, a special board similar to, if not 
 indeed, the Interstate Commerce Commission itself, ought to be 
 charged with the duty of making rates and determining the many 
 other minutiae of the system. In no country where government 
 ownership of railways obtains are the rates legislatively made. The 
 subject is one calling for administrative rather than legislative atten- 
 tion. Congress in practice would either make the rates too high 
 (oddly enough the threatened danger) and inhibit the potential 
 traffic or make them too low and work a needless deficit on the 
 department, saying nothing of the special-rate privileges thus cre- 
 ated and always hard to dislodge. With the progress of government 
 
334 PARCEL POST. 
 
 and civilization Congress, without rate making, will have more than 
 enough general legislative work to do ; and it is only the dreamer and 
 toy maker who should wish to impose a nondepartmental and equally 
 inexpert and unadapted rate condition upon the commerce of a 
 country. With our long distances and corresponding dependence on 
 adequate transportation conditions the argument for real compe- 
 tency in the rate makers, i. e., for the service of the Interstate Com- 
 merce Commission or a body like it, rather than a bill writer as to 
 the required rates, becomes unanswerable. Congress has never un- 
 dertaken to make freight rates for the railways. It assigned the 
 work instead to the commission which has like power over express 
 rates. 
 
 There is as much reason for leaving it there and as little for taking 
 it away under the proposed system as the present. And here we see 
 again the infirmity of the merely partial treatment of the express 
 subject contained in the parcel-post proposition, namely, its law- 
 made, rigid, flat, and commercially unadapted rate. The rate sub- 
 ject is not a plaything, however, and should be handled by methods 
 for making useful tools and not childish toys. 
 
 TRANSPORTATION PRACTICES AND THE SMALL SHIPMENT. 
 
 In a former division of the study attention was called to a discrimi- 
 nation against the small package on a short journey, because under 
 the operation of the express-railway contracts the 5-pound package 
 on a 36-mile journey had to pay the railway at the rate of $1.42 per 
 ton-mile, while the 100-pound package paid only 14 cents a ton-mile 
 for the same journey. Attention will now be brought to another 
 serious handicap which it is forced to bear, although without censur- 
 able relation to either railway or express company. This burden 
 may be designated in railway terminology as "transportation ac- 
 counting," a phrase descriptive of a number of pen and paper acts 
 and processes necessary in railway and express administration. 
 Every shipment by freight, besides the principal fact of transporta- 
 tion, must receive a number of acts of attention by the railway, as 
 witness the following statement made by a traffic expert : 
 
 The railway company employee — 
 
 (I) Unloads article from consignor's vehicle. 
 (2.) Loads article in car. 
 
 (3) Ascertains rate to be paid. 
 
 (4) Makes out bill of lading. 
 
 (5) Makes out waybill and sends copy to auditor and the train 
 
 conductor. 
 
 (6) Receiving agent, destination, receipts to conductor — 
 
 (7) Sends notice to consignee. 
 
 (8) Unloads package from car. 
 
 (9) Takes receipt of consignee. 
 
 (10) Loads it on consignee's wagon. 
 
 (II) Agent gets money for shipment — 
 
 (12) Copies bill of lading into record of freight for- 
 
 warded. 
 
 (13) Copies bill of lading into record of freight received. 
 
 (14) Sends statement of freight sent to auditor. 
 
 (15) Sends statement of freight received to auditor. 
 
PARCEL POST. 335 
 
 (16) Auditor checks bill of lading against records of sending 
 agent — 
 
 (17) Checks bill of lading against record of receiving 
 
 agent — 
 
 (18) Advises treasurer of money due by each agent. 
 
 (19) Makes statistical report from bill of lading. 
 
 (20) Calculates, per bill of lading, amount payable the 
 
 different railways. 
 
 Here are 20 acts of service which the railway (and mutatis mut- 
 andis the express company) must perform for the shipment whether 
 the weight or journey be great or small. Their total cost constitute 
 nearly the whole expense when the journey is the shortest or the 
 weight is the lightest, while this expense tends to lessen corre- 
 spondingly with the increase of the weight and the journey. 
 
 Eailway tariffs frequently show rates per 100 pounds of 8, 7, and 
 6 cents for short distances; and we shall see later that the average 
 rate, sixth class, for 36 miles is but 9 cents, and for 100 miles but 
 11 cents; in fact, nearly all minimum distance rates for all the classes 
 are below 20 cents per 100 pounds. Yet the railways decline to carry 
 for this published tariff, and require, instead, a minimum fee of 25 
 cents, however low the rate may be, even when 6 cents a hundred; 
 and in the same way they refuse to charge the shipper on less than 
 100-pound lots, however much less the actual weight may be. This 
 fee of 25 cents may be said to be the irreducible minimum in freight 
 charges, however light the weight. 
 
 There is, however unwelcome, abundant justification for these mini- 
 mum charges. 
 
 Speaking relatively, railway accounting practices are fitted pri- 
 marily for the large and not the little consignment, for the large 
 buyer rather than the little and ultimate buyer. Their desirable busi- 
 ness comes from the wholesale unit rather than the final unit of trade 
 or the ultimate purchaser. Accordingly, the transportation practices 
 and processes through which every shipment goes, before going in the 
 car, while in transit, after leaving the car, and before its receipt by 
 the consignee, are the relatively necessary incidents of the large ship- 
 ments, the cost of which it can reasonably bear. But when they are 
 applied to the small shipment or the retail unit, under 100 pounds, 
 their cost has driven it out of transportation commerce. 
 
 The express company accounting practices are not less multiplied 
 or costly. I have had an experienced express traffic expert detail 
 to me the following, as being susceptible of postage stamp replace- 
 ment, and thus subject to elimination : 
 
 The express company — 
 
 (1) Ascertains the rate to be paid. 
 
 (2) Makes out waybill. 
 
 (3) Copies waybill into record of shipment forwarded. 
 
 (4) Copies same into record of shipments received. 
 
 (5) Makes statement of " shipment sent " to auditor. 
 
 (6) Makes same of shipments received. 
 
 m Auditor checks waybills against record of sending agent. 
 
 (8) Auditor checks same against record of receiving agent. 
 
 (9) In case of " through " waybills previous items repeated. 
 
336 PARCEL POST. 
 
 (10) Auditor makes division of percentages going to express 
 
 company and the railway or railways. 
 
 (11) In cases of " through " waybills auditor makes like division 
 
 of percentages between express companies and railways. 
 
 No railway or express company has so far ventured an experiment 
 of elimination of these accounting practices, 1 and in view of the inter- 
 corporate dealings of express and railway companies it is difficult to 
 see how such an experiment could succeed. It is, perhaps, not too 
 broad a statement to say that railway and express transportation ac- 
 counting are necessary to intercorporate dealings and the large ship- 
 ment, and can not be dispensed with by either. As long as the indi- 
 vidual railway and express company are our agencies of transporta- 
 tion for the small shipments, we can not complain at paying for the 
 practices they find necessary, and we have seen that neither are insti- 
 tutionally qualified to economically handle the small shipment. 
 
 ELIMINATION OF TRANSPORTATION ACCOUNTING. 
 
 There is one transportation agency in the United States which is 
 able to divorce the package from the accounting burden. It is the 
 postal system. It is doing so now. The postage stamp takes the 
 place of the 11 processes of the express company, set forth in a pre- 
 ceding page. If we except the stamp account of the local postmaster 
 with the department, absolutely none of the express accounting de- 
 scribed takes place. It is the only transportation institution which 
 has accomplished this distinction. And this statement is not made 
 with the purpose of invidious comparison with other transportation 
 agencies. The condition results from its universality and consequent 
 simplicity of relation with other transportation agencies. If it were 
 not for this, if it had to keep up the same accounting relations with 
 its letters that the express and railway companies find necessary with 
 their shipments, the letter would cost us 6 cents, and, perhaps, consid- 
 ering the consequent diminution of the traffic, even 10 cents, instead 
 of 2 cents. 
 
 The list of twenty-two railway processes is made up of distinguish- 
 able items. Items 1, 2, 10, and 12 concern physical transportation 
 and are intrinsically necessary, while item 13 is equally so. Item 5, 
 by automatic copies, may be made to replace items 9 and 11. Thus 
 of twenty-two acts, seven alone are necessary under postal auspices, 
 and of these seven, three (5, 9, and 11) are reduced to one. One 
 might seem a little extravagant in this claim where it is not an 
 existing fact in postal administration ; it may be urged that some of 
 these items are necessary safeguards against the loss of the shipment 
 by theft. At present the postal system finds it more economical to 
 locate and punish actual thieves than to keep watch over all its em- 
 ployees in a probably vain enterprise of preventing the occasional 
 miscreant. For those articles of traffic especially susceptible to this 
 danger, such as money and other valuables, adequate protective proc- 
 esses and insurance indemnification should be provided, to be speci- 
 ally paid for, as in China a receipt from the consignee is required 
 to be. If experience should prove these items 7 and 8 to be necessary, 
 
 J It may be that this statement is too broad. The Pennsylvania Railroad is said to do 
 a 5 or 10 cent package business out of Philadelphia to certain points, without collect or 
 delivery, as to which this accounting may not obtain. 
 
PARCEL POST. 337 
 
 it would seem they might be provided through the mechanical quintu- 
 plication of the identification tag, copies going to the sender, the 
 consignee, and to the trainmen handling the packages. 
 
 We have thus an agency which reduces the twenty-two acts of 
 railway service to four, and which under any circumstances will not 
 need to employ more than seven of them, namely, items 1, 2, 5, 7, 8, 
 10, and 12. In its stamp or identification-tag account with the re- 
 spective postmasters, the department providing distinct tags for the 
 different weights and distances, satisfactory statistics of the traffic 
 nationally and locally could be inexpensively secured, supplying 
 a serious deficiency in the present express business. 
 
 Of the 51 cents that the average express package now costs, 52.50 
 per cent or 27 cents goes to the express company. Out of the 27 cents 
 less than 6 cents is expended in the service of collect and delivery. 
 Excepting the messenger and some superintending service, substan- 
 tially all the remainder of the express revenue goes to this account- 
 ing and to profits. Since the express business is mainly in the smali 
 packages, need we wonder that its rates and practices have reduced 
 the traffic to about one-half of its proportions elsewhere, and prob- 
 ably to one-third of what the elimination of the express company 
 may save it here ? 
 
 Thus both the railway, with reference to the fast-freight service 
 later- proposed, and the express service would be relieved of these 
 acts, and the whole operation relieved of transportation accounting, 
 leaving only the necessary acts of transportation. The rate ascer- 
 taining, so onerous with eight hundred billions of railway rates to 
 approach and two hundred and twenty billions of place to place 
 express rates — one being the right and all the others the wrong 
 rate — in itself lifts a substantial burden from the back of the article. 
 At present when the shipment passes from one railway to another 
 under railway practice the items are repeated again, and for longer 
 journeys the series may be as often repeated as there are different 
 railway companies. The accounting of the Pennsylvania Eaili'oad 
 Co. is carried into 100 subsidiary companies of which it is composed, 
 each company preserving, for accounting purposes only, its corporate 
 autonomy. The effect of all this is to penalize the shipment of less 
 than 100 pounds and drive it out of the freight traffic of the United 
 States. 
 
 Obviously to save the small shipment it must be emancipated from 
 " transportation accounting." 
 
 The postal system is, apparently, the only agency now constituted 
 to achieve the result. 
 
 MALECONOMY OF EXPRESS COMPANIES, AND SAVING UNDER POSTAL 
 
 MANAGEMENT. 
 
 The maleconomy of the express company regime in the United 
 States flows from the artificiality and parasitic relationship of these 
 companies to the railways, and to their complete absence of relation 
 with the postal system. Only maleconomy may be expected where 
 the normal agency, the post office, is deprived of its function— dis- 
 placed by another organism abnormally articulated to the railway 
 at one end and not at all to the natural distributing postal agency at 
 the other. One of its fundamental failures — to properly discharge 
 its spurious function (service to the country) — has been pointed out. 
 
338 PAECEL POST. 
 
 The classification of operating expenses under which the accounts 
 of express companies are kept divides the express into four general 
 heads, as follows : " Maintenance," " Traffic," " Transportation," and 
 " General expense." 
 
 " Maintenance " expenses represent the cost of maintaining the 
 plant, such as cost of repairing and renewing buildings, wagons^ 
 automobiles, office furniture and fixtures, renewal of horses, and cost 
 of superintendence of such maintenace. 
 
 " Traffic " expenses represent, broadly, the cost of securing traffic, 
 covering such items as pay of traffic managers, expenses for advertis- 
 ing, for printing tariffs and classifications, for membership in com- 
 mercial bodies, and so forth. 
 
 " Transportation " expenses cover the cost of conducting trans- 
 portation, the plant being considered as a going concern. Under this 
 head comes the pay and expenses of officials directly in charge of the 
 employees; pay of drivers, porters, messengers on trains; the stable 
 expenses, such as rent of stables, horse feed, horseshoeing; payments 
 for loss and damage; payments for injuries to persons; rent of office 
 buildings ; stationery used in the local offices ; and all similar items 
 of expense. 
 
 Under " General expense " comes the pay and expenses of the 
 chairman of the board of directors, the president, treasurer, auditor, 
 and other general officers; the salaries and expenses of their clerks 
 and attendants; all general office supplies and expenses; law ex- 
 penses ; insurance, pensions, and cost of stationery and printing used 
 in the general office. 
 
 Each of the four general accounts to which reference has been 
 made is subdivided into a" number of primary accounts in order to 
 still further classify the items of expense ; and the saving which it 
 is estimated can be made in operating expenses, through the consoli- 
 dation of the plants of the 13 separate express companies into a 
 postal express organization, has been calculated for each of the pri- 
 mary accounts. As a result of such calculation it is found that, 
 taking the total expenses of the 13 companies for the year ending 
 June 30, 1909, as the basis of comparison, a saving of $22,888,477 can 
 be made, or a little more than 40 per cent of the total operating ex- 
 pense of $56,273,055. This saving is distributed among the general 
 accounts as follows : 
 
 Maintenance $1, 457, 000 
 
 Traffic 652, 594 
 
 Transportation 17, 996, 750 
 
 General expense 2, 872, 133 
 
 Total 22,888,477 
 
 Of course, there is no absolute basis on which the saving may be 
 ascertained, but it is believed that the figures given are very con- 
 servative and that the saving will be much greater than stated. How- 
 ever, it is better to understate than to overestimate. Accepting, then, 
 the figures arrived at as representing the saving in operating ex- 
 penses, to them should be added taxes amounting to $906,519 and 
 profits of $11,387,489, making a grand total of $35,182,485. From 
 this deduct interest at %\ per cent on $40,000,000 of bonds, or $1,000- 
 000, and we have left a clear saving of $34,182,485. 
 
PAKCEL POST. 339 
 
 Because of the fact that there are a great number of " common- 
 point " offices at which two or more, frequently seven or eight, com- 
 panies are represented, all the equipment acquired would not im- 
 mediately be necessary for the operation of the business, but could 
 be reserved until the increase which would undoubtedly come through 
 reduction in rates demanded that it be put in service. It is a faci 
 that in many — in fact, most — of the "common points," about 8,000 
 in number, an increase of one-third to one-half in the equipment and 
 facilities of any one company would handle the entire business of all 
 companies, and in this fact lies the strongest reason why a very con- 
 siderable saving can be made in operating expenses. 
 
 Among items of expense which would be entirely eliminated may 
 be pointed out the salaries and expenses of the hundreds'of clerks in 
 auditors' offices who do nothing but pro rate the percentages accru- 
 ing to transportation lines for the privilege of conducting an ex- 
 press business over them; the salaries and expenses of other hun- 
 dreds in the same offices who pro rate the charges between companies 
 on waybills originating with one company and terminating with an- 
 other — through bills, as they are called. The saving in the duplica- 
 tion of salaries and expenses of traffic managers, solicitors, presi- 
 dents, treasurers, auditors, and superintendence of all kinds must be 
 apparent, and, in fact, the possibilities in this line appear almost 
 unlimited. 
 
 The great amount of detail work in the express business as now 
 conducted is well known to all who are familiar with the business, 
 and through the elimination of a large- part of the detail still further 
 economies will be effected. 
 
 As an illustration of detail which may be eliminated, take the 
 case of a package originating with express company A, destined to 
 a point reached only by express company B. Company A waybills 
 the package to a junction point with company B. On arrival at the 
 junction point the shipment is written up on the regular form of 
 delivery, receipted, and delivered to company B, which makes an- 
 other waybill from the junction point to destination. On arrival at 
 destination it is again written up for delivery. Notice the duplica- 
 tion of work, each of the two companies going through practically 
 identical processes. 
 
 A system of through cars between large centers of population 
 could be run, thus obviating the expense of labor in unloading and 
 reloading cars at the terminus of transportation line, known as 
 transfer expense. When it is held in mind that under the proposed 
 plan it would be possible to forward these cars over any railway 
 line or from any depot, the saving effected would be considerable 
 when compared with the present conditions, which often require 
 that a car be unloaded and its contents hauled in wagons across the 
 city and then reloaded into another car on a different line of road. 
 Not only would there be a saving of labor, but also in time and in 
 risk of loss of damage in handling. 
 
 On a gross business of approximately $132,500,000 the operating 
 expenses show items 19, 33, and 47, amounting to $1,360,076.54, as 
 paid for stationery, while the postal system on a gross business of 
 $208,351,886 shows $338,805.57. An aggregate saving on these items 
 of $561,810 is predicated, leaving about $800,000 still available fox- 
 expenditure. But with the simplified condition and the possible de- 
 
340 PARCEL POST. 
 
 vices for eliminating the complex and almost endless accounting, it 
 is not unlikely that a million dollars could be saved. 
 
 Take again the item of commissions, amounting to $6,621,952.63. 
 This represents payments to railway agents whose connection with 
 the subject would be shifted to the Post Office with but a little of 
 increased expense. Items 16 and 17, " outside agencies " and " adver- 
 tising," might be almost wholly saved. But I will leave the further 
 detail of this subject to Appendix F. A statement of comparative 
 receipts under both systems now follows : 
 
 Receipts and expenditures of express function under postal express. 
 [Based on experience, 1909.] 
 
 Gross revenues $132. 599,190.92 
 
 Expenditures : 
 
 Maintenance $742, 651. 38 
 
 Traffic expense 1 5,080.34 
 
 Transportation expenses 31, 276, 281. IS 
 
 General expense 1,360,563.59 
 
 Railway pay 63, 932, 126. 99 
 
 Interest on bonds _' 1, 000, 000. 00 
 
 98, 416, 707. 48 
 
 Balance, savings of operation 34,182,493.44 
 
 These savings alone, if applied to the rates in 1909, would have re- 
 sulted as follows: 
 
 Cents. 
 
 Actual express rate per average pound 1.56 
 
 Reduction of rate per average pound .44 
 
 E^easible, resulting rate, average pound 1.12 
 
 THE RATE DECLENSION IN THE EXPRESS TRAFFIC. 
 
 There are two elements in a practical rate structure which call for 
 the first order of attention : 
 
 (a) A rate sufficiently low to permit the article to move (with a 
 profit) to its natural market, and yet sufficiently large to fully pay 
 the cost of the service. 
 
 (b) The highest feasible simplicity in the rate structure itself. 
 
 A reduction of about one-half in the express rates following the 
 possible economies of a single operation will do much to gratify the 
 first requirement; but its full realization will have to wait the de- 
 velopment of the traffic from rural points and the gradual approach 
 to a readjustment of railway pay. With respect to the second, rate 
 simplicity, this is perhaps attainable only under the proposed unifi- 
 cation. When this simplicity can be secured with proper regard to 
 the first requirement, rates adapted to traffic needs, all is gain. 
 But if the rate is made by law and for simplicity's sake alone, and 
 substantial differences of service costs, and traffic mobility are over- 
 looked, its wisdom is not unlike the false simplicity of some eastern 
 laws which impose the same punishment for all offenses. 
 
 The importance of having a simple formula by which, the weight 
 of the package being known, the application of a scale to a map 
 would readily determine the charge, is obvious. Devices for this 
 
PARCEL POST. 341 
 
 purpose at once suggest themselves Each county might be regarded 
 as a point, and measurements from that point 'to like points could 
 be made. Each post office, or habitual user of the service, might 
 attach to a pivot set in the map, at the point of sending, a scale to 
 rotate to any desired point, and, adjoining the point of destination, 
 the scale would show the cost, according to the class and the pounds 
 in the package without the possible errors of computation. Stamps 
 or printed slips attached to the package, stamped with number of 
 package and office and date, would show weight, character, insurance, 
 and distance of shipment, supplying automatically a record of the 
 pounds and pound-mileage fpr each office, and, as desired, the like 
 data for the whole country. All this by the simple expedient of 
 printed identification slips or stamps adapted to the different weights 
 and distances and arranged in a cabinet as passenger tickets may be 
 seen in ticket offices. Under existing circumstances there is no rule 
 by which one can determine the cost of shipment short of application 
 for quotation of the rate at the express office. 
 
 And with respect to the number of present express rates and their 
 complexity the situation is not fundamentally different from that of 
 freight^ rates. An inspection of the division of express rates and 
 tariffs in the Interstate Commerce Commission shows eight shelves, 
 each approximating 120 feet in length, filled with these express 
 tariffs, filed like books in 960 feet of library shelving. If anyone 
 would think this a matter of small significance, let him consider the 
 complexity in mere numbers alone of the rates for the country, said 
 to be over 220,000,000,000,_one of which is the right, and all the others 
 the wrong, rate for the shipment at hand. 
 
 THE SQUAEE-EOOT TOBMULA OF BATE DECLENSION. 
 
 One of the most interesting discoveries in the history of railway 
 economics was made by T. M. R. Talcott, of Richmond, Va., railway 
 engineer of about two generations' experience, who has written a 
 modest but very useful work on " Transportation by Rail." 
 
 In an investigation into transportation matters by the Industrial 
 Commission, in 1900, he stated that he was called upon to make local 
 rates for a new line of railway. Being free from the complication 
 of competition as to such rates, he was able to arrive at a satisfac- 
 tory charge per 100 pounds to the first station, about 25 miles dis- 
 tant; but as to the stations farther on and greater distances, what 
 should the rates be? Obviously, they should not increase in pro- 
 portion to the distance, for the element of terminal service would 
 not increase. At what rate of increase, then, should the rates for 
 lengthening distances be computed? 
 
 His conclusion was that in a rough way the rate would increase, 
 not in proportion to the distance but in proportion to the square root 
 of the added distance. Thus, if the proper rate for 25 miles were 10 
 cents, the rate for 100 miles would be 20 cents — the square root of 25 
 being 5, and of 100, 10. Popularly expressed, the rate would double 
 as the distance quadrupled. On this principle he formulated a table 
 for the division of joint rates among participating connecting car- 
 riers, known as Talcott's Table for Division of Joint Rates. He 
 states that in several court proceedings, as auditor, he adopted this 
 formula for division of receipts, and his reports were confirmed by 
 
342 
 
 PAKCEL. POST. 
 
 the courts. I tested this rule in the largest way which seemed pos- 
 sible by taking the long and short hauls for local freight, with their 
 corresponding charges on 42 railway systems. The test showed that 
 while none of the particular rates coincided with the formula, yet 
 the average of all were as — 
 
 Formula rate for Ion? hauJ $1.2774 
 
 Actual rate for long haul 1.2957 
 
 The actual short average haul was 72.5 miles, and the actual com- 
 bined charge of the six classes 49.19 cents. The average long haul 
 was 451 miles, and the actual combined charge for the six classes 
 $1.29, as stated. The same test, applied to nine representative rates 
 for the first and sixth classes, and for nine different journeys rang- 
 ing from 36 miles up to 1,156 miles, shows that, without reference to 
 whether the rates are local or competitive, the formula holds good 
 up to 900 miles. Even at 1,156 miles the actual rates exceed the 
 formula by a little more than 10 per cent. 
 
 It must not be concluded from the manner in which the American 
 freight, or the German and Austrian, or American express rates, 
 approach to or fall below what is here denominated the " square-root 
 curve," that any of the rate makers acted on the formula, or even had 
 it in mind. The freight rates of the railways referred to would 
 rather indicate that the rate makers were aiming at a target the 
 exterior outlines of which could be dimly seen, but the center point 
 of which was not visible; and while the individual rates usually 
 approximated, they did not coincide exactly with the Talcott scale. 
 I think, however, that a system of express rate formulated on this 
 principle up to 900 miles, while giving mobility to traffic covering 
 long distances, would prove practical to cover the relative cost of the 
 service. 
 
 For the purpose of adjusting their parcel charges to market mo- 
 bility and to the cost of service, Germany and Austria established 
 the zone " idea for parcels weighing 13 to 110 pounds. The rates 
 on a 13-pound package are here given, with the mileage, and a 
 column is added giving the square root of each distance and what 
 the charges would be in the square-root terms of the rates for the 
 shortest distance if the rates were made on the Talcott formula. 
 
 German and Austrian parcels rates for different distances on 13-pound parcels, 
 and showing rates for such distances, under the square-root formula. 
 
 Weights. 
 
 Miles. 
 
 Square 
 root. 
 
 German 
 
 rate in 
 
 pfennigs. 
 
 Square- 
 root rate. 
 
 Austrian 
 rate in 
 hellers. 
 
 Square- 
 root rale. 
 
 
 46.1 
 92.2 
 230.5 
 461.0 
 691.0 
 
 6.80 
 
 9.60 
 
 15.17 
 
 21.47 
 
 26.29 
 
 30 
 35 
 45 
 55 
 05 
 
 30.00 
 43.33 
 66.89 
 94.68 
 
 US. 30 
 
 36 
 42 
 54 
 66 
 
 .78' 
 
 36.00 
 
 Do 
 
 48.28 
 
 Do 
 
 76.30 
 
 Do 
 
 1.07.94 
 
 Do 
 
 1.32.23 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 230 
 
 353.20 
 
 276 
 
 '4.00.75 
 
 
 
 
 
 The German pfennig (0.238 cent) and the Austrian heller 
 (0.203 cent) are each a little more than two-tenths of a cent, and are 
 each the hundredth of a mark and a crown, respectively. 
 
PARCEL POST. 343 
 
 The next step will be to observe whether and to what extent 
 American express rates follow this curve of declension. There is 
 added to this study Appendix E by the Interstate Commerce Com- 
 mission, showing actual merchandise rates between 10 different points 
 for distances of from 36 miles to 3,600 miles on shipments of from 
 5 pounds up to 100. 
 
 The table following represents the average of all the rates given in 
 Appendix E ; and gives in parallel columns tentative express postal 
 rates computed on the Talcott formula up to 900 miles, where the 
 declension stops, and later becomes horizontal, and thence increases 
 arithmetically with the journey. 
 
 In the following table an average express haul of 196 miles is 
 assumed, the average freight haul being 253 miles, about 30 per cent 
 greater. In nearly all instances abroad the express haul slightly 
 exceeds the freight haul; and in the absence of exact statistics it is 
 considered that an assumption of 196 miles here is not above the 
 mark. The express rates proper are averages of actual rates as 
 stated and the " tentative express rates " represent special loadings 
 for " collect and delivery " and " general expense," and for transpor- 
 tation the average express railway pay of 0.74 cent per pound as 
 per the experience of 1909. 
 
 21845— vol 2—12 6 
 
344 
 
 PAKCEL. POST. 
 
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 Tp lO o 
 
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 Ed »- *l 
 
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 CO o m -f 
 
 r-i i-H C) M CO 
 
 Cl Cl Cl Cl Cl 
 
 dcoeo^KTiramor-oo 
 
 
 ci CO co -# 
 
 HMNOgNM«X'ON1"l»COO)0 
 
 o to o r^. t— 
 
 r^ x oc oo 
 
 5 is 
 
 ^•"OC1000t-t--QOO 
 
 ■Jt lO U3 H (O 
 
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PARCEL POST. 345 
 
 In the above table the prevailing transportation pay, 0.74 cents 
 per pound, is divided by 14, to obtain the cost per transportation 
 distance unit under the Talcott formula, giving the product of 
 0.053 — which is multiplied by the square root of the miles of the 
 journeys up to 905 miles — producing thus the transportation loading 
 per pound. The pound rate per journey is multiplied by the number 
 of pounds in the parcel to secure the final transportation loading 
 for each rate, and the other loadings then added to make the tenta- 
 tive postal-express rate. In proportion as the actual express haul 
 may prove longer or shorter than the assumed haul of 196 miles, 
 these tentative rates should be increased or diminished under the 
 formula, which is limited to distances within 905 miles. For longer 
 distances the transportation loading is at the rate of 3.55 cents per 
 ton-mile. The mingled " merchandise " and " commodity," i. e., the 
 average express-railway pay on all kinds of express classes and 
 rates, for distances beyond 905 miles indicates this 3.55 cents per 
 ton-mile as constant, although a preceding table dealing only with 
 merchandise rates indicates it as -± cents. The table above given con- 
 cerns merchandise rates. Even lower rates would have to be con- 
 sidered for special kinds of traffic. 
 
 EXPRESS-RAILWAY PAY, THE AMOUNT. 
 
 Some little textual comment on the last comparative table may be 
 offered. Its feasibility, to begin with, depends solely on the suffi- 
 ciency of the loadings for " collect and delivery " (previously dis- 
 cussed) and the loading for general expense. The transportation 
 loading, i. e., the railway pay, is not different in amount from that 
 now paid the railways, according to the experience of 1909. The 
 method, simplified in the interest of the railroads and the traffic, as 
 well as economical practice, is different; but the railways are inter- 
 ested in seeing that the amount of their revenues are not impaired, 
 and in not preserving costly methods of computing it. This may be 
 an appropriate place to emphasize the importance of not thought- 
 lessly impairing railway revenues, or even of rendering them seri- 
 ously uncertain. The prosperity of the country largely depends upon 
 the degree of assurance with which the investing public may con- 
 template the railway revenue of the future. From this standpoint 
 the question is not so much whether a particular service is over- 
 burdened by railway charges as it is, Do the final results of all the 
 railway charges justify the investors' confidence? The investigation 
 may show, the experience elsewhere certainly indicates, that the 
 railway portion of -the present express charge is about twice what it 
 should be. But it does equally appear that, at the same time, the 
 railways are securing so much excess net revenue on their entire 
 operations. If they are getting too much from the express traffic 
 and yet are not getting too much from the whole traffic, then the 
 express excess pay must mean an equal undercharge by the railways 
 on some other traffic. A fair regard to the rights of the railway in- 
 vestors dictates, accordingly, that when the alleged excess express 
 railway pay is adjusted down, the equilibrium of net railway revenues 
 be maintained by adjusting the insufficient charges up to correspond. 
 This is unquestionably necessary, unless it can be known with cer- 
 
346 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 tainty, that the reduction of the expresg-railway pay will operate, 
 through cheapened express rates, to correspondingly increase the 
 business and preserve the gross return intact. Only actual experi- 
 ment can demonstrate the argument to the railway investor. Accord- 
 ingly, the effort to adjust railway pay for this service should be 
 conditioned on results, not deduction, however convincing, to third 
 parties. 
 
 And yet, if the postal management, by its expected capacity to re- 
 duce the rates and enlarge the traffic by articulation with rural 
 sources, shall actually double the business for the railway, and it be 
 found, as suspected, that express-railway pay is double normal, will 
 not the conditions be then present for an adjustment equally fair to 
 the investor and the traffic? The ratio of the railway revenue from 
 the express service as compared with the freight is now 8 to 1 (7.8 
 to 1), i. e., $14.82 a ton for express-railway pay to $1.90 per ton for 
 freight. The average for the whole service in other countries report- 
 ing, excluding only collect and delivery, is 5.23 to 1, or $4.64 per 
 express ton and $0.84 per ton of freight. Plainly, if right express 
 rates have cut the potential traffic in two, the express company is 
 not the only cause concerned in the result. 
 
 POSTAL EXPRESS RAILWAY PAT. 
 
 In the treatment later of the subject of secondary, or fast-freight 
 express, methods of determining the railway pay are presented and 
 discussed. But they are not deemed applicable during the life of 
 the express railway contracts. 
 
 The basis of the contracts of the railways with the express com- 
 panies for the railway share is a percentage of the charges per pack- 
 age made by the express companies ; a summary of the contract is 
 added to this study as an appendix. When the package traverses 
 more than one line, compensation has to be made to the different rail- 
 way companies for such packages, and the percentage going to each 
 railway is computed in one of two ways— the mile prorate, in accord- 
 ance with the length of the participating railways, or the rate pro- 
 rate, giving each railway compensation as if there were as many 
 shipments as participating, railways ; or both methods may be ap- 
 plicable to a shipment over different lines. 
 
 - The computation of railway compensation is monthly, and each 
 bill of lading must be consulted and the percentage computed for 
 this purpose. The labor of accounting for packages on one-line traffic 
 is costly in the extreme, but when it is multiplied by two or more 
 railways and two or more express lines the labor becomes stupendous. 
 It is proposed to eliminate this waste of accounting, to realize a sav- 
 ing the amount of which can hardly be stated in smaller termsthan 
 its total cost. Instead of computing the amount due each railway 
 from each piece, the bill provides for weighing the express matter 
 at stated times to determine its gross and average weight as a basis 
 of payment to the railway. Let it be said that on a given line or 
 railway the gross weight were found to be 50,000 tons and the gross 
 railway revenue from it were $750,000, or $221 per mile. This weight 
 and compensation would give the operative rate per pound under the 
 respective contracts and a basis for future payments. This change in 
 the method would be important for another reason outside of the 
 
PARCEL POST. 347 
 
 saving, which would make it imperative that the railway and the 
 department adopt it. By it, even under the proposed reduced rates, 
 the railway would be secured a fixed compensation per pound — that 
 is, an average rate for the railway of 0.74 cent per pound, giving 
 the same gross revenue on the weight of traffic that they now receive. 
 
 But if the rates were reduced and the compensation were com- 
 puted according to the. practice under the contracts, they would re- 
 ceive only 47.53 per cent of such reduced charges. Thus both par- 
 ties would have controlling financial motives to employ the gross 
 weight rather than the piece method; for if the department urged 
 the old method it would have the terrific accounting bill to pay, 
 while the railways would have their compensation reduced by from 
 $4 to $5 a ton on the basis of an unchanged percentage of rates re- 
 duced from one-quarter to one-third or more. As to a matter that 
 appeals so strongly to the financial interests of both parties, and 
 involves an obvious public service, there can be no question that the 
 method provided by the bill would prove acceptable. The railways 
 themselves have come to show a reasonable attitude toward the 
 public, and that part of the public which gives attention to transpor- 
 tation matters is not willing that the railways should be wronged. 
 
 During the life of these railway-express contracts — and they run 
 for various periods — their terms, when thus acquired by the Govern- 
 ment, would be scrupulously observed by both parties, except as 
 changed by mutual consent. That under the changed order of 
 things they would be so changed for mutual advantage is certain. 
 Whether before or after their expiration one of the changes not 
 unlikely would be from the weight basis of payment to the car- 
 space and mileage standard, with differential charges for less than 
 full loads, on the principle applied to carload and less than carload 
 freight. This would protect the railways on the lines both of light 
 and heavy traffic and give the postal department practical liberty to 
 adapt its rates to moving the largest economically feasible amount 
 of traffic. However this may be, after the contracts expire the Post- 
 master General is empowered to make new ones, and to guard against 
 serious error appeals for all parties from these contracts are pro- 
 vided to the Interstate Commerce Commission and from it to the 
 Court of Commerce. A just conclusion is always to be desired, and 
 under the circumstances an intelligent department and railway ad- 
 ministration would hardly fail to see that the promotion of the 
 traffic and the broadest extension of the public service would be the 
 surest guaranties of profit to all concerned. 
 
 MISCELLANEOUS REMARKS. 
 
 1 can only glide over the important minutiae of the subject. in its 
 relations to the development to become necessary in the rural free- 
 delivery wagon as the traffic enlarges. The mam point is that the 
 service structure is there and already paid for whether the wagons 
 go empty or full. The practical and economical motor is even now 
 in sight to perform a greatly increased service by lengthening the 
 feasible day's route. In this connection it is suggested that double 
 service might be obtained and route service economically justified in 
 ' many cases by an every-other-day, rather than a daily, service. And 
 a twice-a-week service would prove of very great advantage and be 
 
348 PARCEL POST. 
 
 economically practicable where otherwise none could be sustained. 
 The administration of the service ought to have the power necessary 
 to fit the service to the local conditions and to take the actions dic- 
 tated by the exigencies of the revenues and the requirements of the 
 traffic. Where generalization is practicable the administrative func- 
 tion would likely generalize with as much wisdom as Congress; and 
 if the former made a mistake, it could be corrected without waiting 
 for irreparable loss to the Treasury or the traffic. 
 
 With respect to the rural service, the bill gives the administration 
 the power to grade the weight limit to the growing measure of its 
 facilities for handling the traffic, the limit advancing to 100 pounds 
 as the equipment and traffic may permit. The practice now is to let 
 the carrier own and care for his motive power as the best means for 
 conserving it, and this practice may prove equally desirable when 
 mechanical power replaces the horse. With the City Delivery Service 
 and the large motor truck a different disposition may prove expedi- 
 ent, and until the motor reaches a more perfected state its use by 
 contract may be justified. .Administrative experts may work out all 
 such regulations with the painstaking attention to details essential 
 for the best results. 
 
 In all these matters the bill gives the management the right to 
 move slowly and the power to develop the opportunities of the 
 traffic as operative efficiency permits. 
 
 Naturally, there are minor features of the express business as now 
 conducted and as proposed that have escaped discussion in this 
 study. One of these is the money-order business. The postal sys- 
 tem is so obviously fitted to discharge this work that further com- 
 ment is not thought necessary, except to say that the bill specifically 
 covers this feature. 
 
 It may, too, be suggested that no allowance has been made in the 
 chapter on savings for the increased cost of placing the express em- 
 ployees on the postal plane of hours and wages. This very sub- 
 stantial feature has not been overlooked. It is considered that the 
 low rates and the added rural traffic would double the business in a 
 year and from its increment much more than enough surplus income 
 would flow to cover such items. What is actually expected is that 
 the traffic in a few years would increase to about 16,000,000 tons per 
 annum, including the country-to-town traffic now nonexistent. 
 
 Other features of the general subject are purposely omitted as 
 tending to excite feeling only. It is thought that the controlling 
 elements have been dealt with and that the data necessary to form 
 judgment upon the merits of the passenger express proposition have 
 been presented. 
 
 A SYSTEM OF FAST-FREIGHT EXPRESS. 
 
 The institution in Germany. Fast freight supplemented by passen- 
 
 Classification for, in America. ger trains on branches. 
 
 The necessary classes. Loadings of rates for passenger 
 
 Distance rates and the rate declen- service. 
 
 sion. Expository rate table, first and sixth 
 
 Representative railway rates for va- classes, and comparison with ex- 
 
 rious distances. press rates. 
 
 The small shipment and transporta- Railway pay for fast-freight service, ^ 
 
 tion accounting. Rate-making body and administrative 
 
 Necessity for eliminating transporta- regulations. 
 
 tion accounting. 
 
PARCEL POST. 349 
 
 GENERAL ELEMENTS, POSTAL EXPRESS. 
 
 Zones for postal and fast-freight ex- Advantages of— Continued. 
 
 press. The high cost of living. 
 
 Postal working economy and efficiency. R6sum6 of advantages. 
 
 Unification of postal system, with ex- The opposition, 
 
 press plants. Public opinion. 
 
 Advantages of: Aphoristic statesmen. 
 
 An agricultural post. Conclusion. 
 
 Transportation direct to consuni- Appendices, 
 ers. 
 
 A SYSTEM OF FAST-FREIGHT EXPRESS. 
 
 Perhaps in a major number of instances a shipment now goes by 
 passenger express to obtain expedition and security of transit. How- 
 ever, a very large proportion goes by express because the minimum 
 express and railway rates are the same for short distances and light 
 packages, while the express grants additional facilities. The scien- 
 tific rate maker has an axiom that rates should be — 
 
 (a) Sufficiently low to enable the shipment to move to its natural 
 market with a profit, and yet 
 
 (b) Sufficiently high to pay all the out-of-pocket expenses of the 
 services, and as large a share of the fixed charges as the fiscal exi- 
 gencies of the carrier may require. 
 
 Our railways have gone a long way to gratify the first element — 
 mobility — with respect to the larger articles of commerce, but their 
 practices have, in effect, condemned the small, low-priced consign- 
 ment to commercial immobility. The Germans have worked out 
 the possibilities of transportation in this respect. They have not 
 only the parcel post, available to 110 pounds, at a rate which works 
 out at $13.67 per ton on 13-pound packages for 225 miles; but have 
 also the passenger express at rates four times the freight rate, and 
 what is here called the "fast freight" commanding just twice the 
 freight rate. The latter service makes the rate concession necessary 
 to enable any package, small and cheap, or larger shipment requiring 
 speed, to move to the markets. 
 
 I come now to discuss this method of fast transport, which obtains 
 in Prussia and, perhaps, in Austria. It is a mixed fast-freight serv- 
 ice supplemented by passenger train on the branches. When the 
 place of consignment or destination does not coincide with a fast- 
 freight stopping place, the shipment is expedited either to such 
 point or from such point by the accommodation passenger train. 
 The rate for this service is twice the freight rate, according to its 
 class, while the rate for passenger-train express is four times such 
 freight rate. The conditions obtain for the adoption of this fast- 
 freight express in the United States. On all our trunk lines fast- 
 freight service exists, with an average speed of from 20 to 25 miles 
 per hour. Speaking generally it is only on the branches that this 
 fast service is wanting, where, of course, the accommodation passen- 
 ger train may always be found. 
 
 The system works quite simply in Prussia. There the class traffic 
 by which the rates are determined travels on a rate formula liter- 
 ally comprised in a single page, and by which, the weight and dis- 
 tance of destination of the shipment being stated, the rate can be 
 computed by the application of the formula. 
 
350 PARCEL POST. 
 
 This simplicity of rates does not obtain in the United States. As 
 we have seen, its existence is necessary to a feasible rate for small 
 consignments. 
 
 In its absence the parcel rate would have to be picked out from 
 the 800,000,000,000 place-to-place rates (Stickney), an act (off 
 the beaten lines of traffic) so expensive in its character, saying noth- 
 ing of its fallibility, as to eat up the fiscal loading which the small 
 article might bear and still move. Moreover, with a feasible rate 
 for the diminutive consignment, the whole character of rate finding 
 would likely change. Now an immense proportion is on beaten lines, 
 familiar to the freight agent, and in quantities large enough to sus- 
 tain the cost of the " rare hunt " when otherwise. Accordingly, fast- 
 freight express, as adopted here, in the interest of a feasible rate and 
 the operating economy of the carrying railway, would have to have 
 a rate formula at least as simple as the Prussian. 
 
 Can it be secured ? 
 
 The indifferent railway manager or publicist may quickly say no. 
 
 I believe it can be, and, at least, this committee will be glad to hear 
 the subject discussed. 
 
 THE CLASSIFICATION. 
 
 Obviously there would need be but one classification. There are 
 now three main classifications for the freight traffic — the official, the 
 western, and the southern, with their varying assignment to classes 
 of the articles of commerce. For many years there has been an ef- 
 fort among the railways, in their own interest, to secure such a uni- 
 form classification — disappointed on one occasion, a text writer says, 
 by the dissatisfaction of a single railway company. There is a like 
 movement now which practically assures success, while the Inter- 
 state Commerce Commission has been vested with power to declare 
 one, something it will probably do if the railways fail in their initia- 
 tive. If, upon the passage of the legislation proposed in this study, 
 the work has not been already accomplished by one or the other, the 
 commission might, without endangering appreciably the finances of 
 any railway, " cut the Gordian knot " as to the differences — i. e., exer- 
 cise its power of classification as to this kind of express. 
 
 THE CLASSES. 
 
 In ordinary express, most articles being treated as of the first 
 class or higher, we were not required to consider a question now 
 before us. It is, How many classes for rate purposes should be 
 adopted? Simplicity makes a very natural, if uninstructed, appeal 
 for one class. But I think the conditions render such a treatment 
 either insufficient or impracticable, To adopt rates exclusively based 
 on the rail charge for carrying the sixth-class freight traffic would 
 be unjust to the railways, and result in largely diverting the higher 
 classes of traffic from the railways to the secondary express. To 
 adopt rates based wholly on the first or higher classes would be, in 
 effect, to deny admission of lower class shipments to the secondary 
 express service. The conclusion reached is that the German method 
 should be followed and class rates made, recognizing all classes, but 
 excluding commodities. This would require the postal officials on 
 receipt of the shipment to ascertain the class to which it belonged in 
 the uniform classification, not an expensive task. The article would 
 have in a general way the same adaptation of the rate to the ability 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 
 351 
 
 of the article to bear it, and move with a profit to its natural market, 
 which freight rates possess. 
 
 DISTANCE RATES AND DECLENSION OF KATES. 
 
 Reference has already been made to the Talcott formula with ref- 
 erence to freight rates. Broadly stated, it means that the cost of 
 freight carriage tends to increase, not in arithmetical proportion to 
 the increase of mileage, but in proportion to the increase of the square 
 root of the added mileage. In an earlier part of the study attention 
 has been called to the instinctive recognition of this truth by the 
 rate makers in the express traffic, as well as in the freight. There is 
 now given a table comprising the average of nine representative rates 
 for the first and sixth classes, and for distances running from 36 to 
 900 miles, covering all sections of the United States. It shows that, 
 substantially, the Talcott law holds good for both classes (and doubt- 
 less for all classes) up to 900 miles. Data is wanting for greater 
 distances, but it is probable that the rate curve from 900 miles up 
 tends to decline at a lessening rate. For the purposes of this discus- 
 sion it is treated as flat, i. e., as nondeclining, after 900 miles. 
 
 Table of first and sixth class freight rates, based on averages of nine actual rates 
 for each distance, and corresponding excess-baggag"- rates, compared with 
 rates by the Talcott formula. 
 
 I Per 100 pounds.] 
 
 Distance. 
 
 Square 
 root. 
 
 Miles. 
 25 
 
 5 
 6 
 10 
 14 
 18 
 22 
 26 
 30 
 32 
 34 
 
 36 -. 
 
 100 
 
 196 
 
 324 
 
 484 
 
 676 
 
 800 
 
 1,024 
 
 1,156 
 
 
 First class. 
 
 Charge for 
 
 Actual rate. 
 
 SO. 1042 ! . 
 
 .4167 
 .8167 
 
 1.35 
 
 2.0167 
 
 2.8167 
 
 3.75 
 
 $0. 205 
 
 .302 
 
 .431 
 
 .56 
 
 .725 
 
 .969 
 
 1.102 
 
 1.297 
 
 1.357 
 
 Talcott 
 formula. 
 
 $0. 205 
 
 .341 
 
 .477 
 
 .013 
 
 .75 
 
 .886 
 
 1.023 
 
 1.091 
 
 1.169 
 
 Sixth class. 
 
 Actual rate. 
 
 JO. 09 
 .115 
 . 103 
 
 .217 
 
 .28 
 
 .369 
 
 ,418 
 
 .547 
 
 .577 
 
 Talcott 
 formula. 
 
 80.09 
 .15 
 .18 
 .27 
 .33 
 .39 
 .45 
 .48 
 .51 
 
 As a matter of fact the sum total of the formula rates for the two 
 classes slightly exceed the sum total of the actual rates up to 1,024 
 miles, so that the Talcott law may be said to hold good on the 
 whole for that distance. There is added, in the form of an appendix, 
 the table of actual rates upon which this table is based. 
 ■The above table is given with a view to ascertain what zones are 
 practicable in harmony with existing railway freight rates. It is 
 beyond argument that in a country like ours a considerable number 
 of zones would be necessary. My own impression is that there 
 should be about 40, both for the purpose of correlating express 
 rates with the freight, as well as adapting the rate measurably to 
 the service involved. This condition would not involve us in any 
 complexity, for what can be made simple may be so regarded 
 ab initio. The sizes of the zones being determined ? as hitherto sug- 
 gested, a scale, rotating on a pivot, fixed at the point of origin, the 
 sending county or city, being turned to the point of destination, 
 would give the distance charge per class and per weight (from 10 
 pounds up to 100) without the possible errors of computation. A 
 
352 PARCEL POST. 
 
 stamp tag in quadruplicate, with class, weight, destination, con- 
 signee, number of zone, consignor, and other indicia, is taken from 
 a cabinet and aflixed. One of the copies goes to the consignor, 
 another to the consignee, another to the railway, etc., as by regula- 
 tion may be found necessary. The traffic for each office, according 
 to weights, classes, zones, or distances for each office, may be deter- 
 mined by its stamp account with the department, month by month; 
 as also may its receipts traffic by the surrendered consignee copies. 
 With the hamper of packages delivered to the railway the depart- 
 ment might also deliver the copies with blanks for operating nota- 
 tion of receipt and delivery. In this way the transit of the article, 
 while protected as is freight by appropriate tracing devices, would 
 be completely divorced from the "transportation accounting" of 
 railway practice. What this means in trouble and expense for the 
 railway, and in corresponding costliness of rate to the diminutive 
 consignment is perhaps the most important circumstances of the dis- 
 cussion, and has been treated elsewhere in detail. 
 
 The above elaborate statement is essential to an understanding of 
 the first difficulty in formulating a feasible rate for small packages, 
 for the elements of such are not merely (a) that it be high enough 
 to produce sufficient revenue to pay all the cost of the service, but 
 also (b) that the rate be low enough to enable the article to move 
 with a profit to its natural market. Since in both ordinary and sec- 
 ondary express we shall substantially always be dealing below the 
 100-pound line the " transportation accounting " burden will be 
 present if either be conducted by private corporations. The practices 
 must be kept up by them in their individual relations to the package 
 and each other, and they can not dispense with this accounting. Ac-' 
 cordingly under present railway and express conditions rates pro- 
 portioned to the diminished weight of the package can not reason- 
 ably be asked of the railway or express company, while rates based 
 on the necessary minimums of the railway and express company 
 operate to prohibit, perhaps, more than half of such shipments. 
 The act of moving the small package grows relatively less with its 
 weight. The complex series of acts looking to its fiscal relation to 
 the company grow relatively egregious as the weight of the ship- 
 ment and the journey on any weight approaches the minimum. The 
 latter is then the problem to be solved if we are to secure a feasible 
 package rate. 
 
 To solve it completely the shipment must be divorced completely 
 from the " transportation-accounting " practices of the transporta- 
 tion company. It can be stated that the only instance in which this 
 divorce is now accomplished is in the case of packages carried in the 
 mail, of which no record is kept and no accounting takes place. The 
 railways trust the Government to pay them for carrying those pack- 
 ages upon bases of aggregate weights and the volumes of traffic; and 
 while there is some complaint both from the public and the railways 
 that these bases are unjust, neither would think of resorting to the 
 piece-accounting method of the express company for computing the 
 service rendered. Such a method would weigh down the whole Rail- 
 way Mail Service with accounting expense. 
 
 TENTATIVE BATES FOR FAST-FREIGHT EXPRESS, FIRST AND SECOND CLASSES. 
 
 The rates for secondary express would have to carry loadings for 
 the following services: (a) Collection and delivery urban and rural, 
 
PARCEL POST. 353 
 
 (b) post-office general expense, (o) passenger-train carriage (whether 
 postal car or baggage car), (d) arithmetical proportion of average 
 freight charge. The two former (a) and (Z>) will be alike for all 
 distances, but (a) will be graduated to the weight of the package, 
 while (d) will have to answer to the length of the haul. 
 
 PASSENGER SERVICE ON BRANCHES. 
 
 Without this service there would be no satisfactory expedition of 
 movement in many cases where shipping or destination point did 
 not coincide with the stopping places of the fast-freight trains, and 
 upon the branches. It is therefore regarded as an indispensable 
 service. How should the railway be paid for it? It is suggested 
 that the railway rate and facilities for the carriage of the mails be 
 utilized. This rate is uniform for the whole United States, and its 
 method of computation and payment already in practice. The as- 
 sumption is- that in this mixed passenger and fast freight service 
 the passenger train would, on the average, be necessary for 25 miles 
 of the journey. At 8 cents a ton-mile the package would have to 
 be loaded at the rate of about 10 cents per hundred pounds to pay the 
 railway for this service for a journey of 25 miles. 
 
 It should be noted in this connection that an immense portion of 
 the traffic would travel between the cities on the trunk lines and re- 
 quire no passenger service at all. Nearly all the balance of the traffic 
 would travel either from the city to points on the branches or vice 
 versa, and require the service at but one end of the journey. Only 
 rarely, it seems, would the branch service be required at both ends of 
 the journey ; and so it is considered that an average of 25 miles, for all 
 shipments, quite fully states the degree to which the rate should be 
 charged for this service. 
 
 FREIGHT-RATE LOADINGS. 
 
 The loadings (a), (&), and (c) having been discussed, there re- 
 mains the loading for transportation of the article by fast freight. 
 This loading for both the first and second classes covered by the 
 table, next to be introduced, consists of averages of these rates as 
 given in the first table of this division of the study. It is a short- 
 distance rate of 20.5 cents for the haul of 36 miles running to $1.10 
 for 900 miles on first class, and 9 cents and 42 cents, respectively, for 
 the sixth class, and like distances. It is to be regretted that the rate 
 could not be made simply twice the freight rate, as in Germany, be- 
 cause in that case we should not be in danger of making a rate so 
 low as to divert traffic from the railway to secondary express in those 
 instances where the latter rate might be lower than the railway rate. 
 Protective provisions are made for these conditions, however. Of 
 course, there should not be a low Government rate in a given direc- 
 tion and a higher rate in another; and so the rates should have to 
 be uniform for given weights and distances. The railways do not 
 object to this, apparently, in the case of the express companies, whose 
 rates are practically the same for differing directions throughout the 
 country. To protect the railway from diversion of its traffic to the 
 express in those instances where its rates may be higher than those 
 of the Government it is proposed that the railway shall have the 
 right to collect from the consignee the difference between its rate 
 
354 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
 (ignoring the minimum rule) and the transportation loading" for 
 the fast-freight service. Thus, if its rate on a 10-pound package 
 (one-tenth of its hundredweight rate) were 30 cents, and the sec- 
 ondary express loading were but 20 cents the railway should have 
 a right to collect from the consignee, through the postal agencies, 
 this excess of 10 cents. It is not thought this condition would be 
 often encountered, and where it is the railway should be made to do 
 duty as its own sentinel, since it is in possession of all the machinery 
 for discovering the anomalies in such cases. After all this discussion 
 of loadings for the secondary express rates, that is of " collect and 
 delivery," " general expense," " passenger-train service," " fast-freight 
 service," I undertake, in a purely expository way, to present a table 
 of fast-freight express rates based on the loadings and data pre- 
 sented. 
 
 Expository fast-freight express rates, first and sixth classes, and actual express 
 
 rates. 
 
 Distance. 
 
 Classes. 
 
 10 
 pounds. 
 
 20 
 pounds. 
 
 30 
 pounds. 
 
 40 
 pounds. 
 
 50 
 pounds. 
 
 Square 
 root. 
 
 Miles. 
 
 
 SO. 32 
 .12 
 .12 
 .42 
 .14 
 .12 
 .51 
 .16 
 .13 
 .63 
 .18 
 .13 
 .79 
 .19 
 .14 
 .92 
 .21 
 .15 
 .97 
 .22 
 .16 
 1.18 
 .28 
 .17 
 1.25 
 .31 
 .19 
 
 ( ! ) 
 .33 
 .21 
 
 m 
 
 .37 
 .21 
 1.40 
 .42 
 23 
 
 .44 
 .24 
 
 1.54 
 .50 
 .26 
 C) 
 .52 
 .27 
 
 1.65 
 .55 
 .28 
 
 $0.32 
 .15 
 .15 
 .46 
 .21 
 .17 
 .60 
 .23 
 .18 
 .79 
 .26 
 .19 
 
 1.01 
 .30 
 .21 
 
 1.24 
 .34 
 .22 
 
 1.30 
 .37 
 .23 
 
 1.72 
 .49 
 .27 
 
 1.90 
 .54 
 .30 
 (?) 
 .59 
 .32 
 
 m 
 
 .66 
 .35 
 
 2.60 
 .76 
 .38 
 ( 2 ) 
 .81 
 .40 
 
 2.89 
 .92 
 .44 
 
 .96 
 
 .46 
 
 3.00 
 
 1.03 
 
 .54 
 
 SO. 41 
 .16 
 .16 
 .56 
 .25 
 .20 
 .73 
 .29 
 .21 
 .91 
 .33 
 .23 
 
 1.23 
 .38 
 .25 
 
 1.54 
 .46 
 .27 
 
 1.61 
 .49 
 .29 
 
 2.40 
 .67 
 .35 
 
 2.63 
 .75 
 .39 
 
 m 
 
 .82 
 .41 
 
 m 
 
 .93 
 
 .46 
 3.87 
 1.08 
 
 .51 
 (?) 
 1.15 
 
 .55 
 4.28 
 1.32 
 
 .60 
 
 1.37 
 .64 
 4.47 
 1.48 
 .66 
 
 $0.44 
 .19 
 .19 
 .64 
 .31 
 .23 
 .82 
 .36 
 .25 
 .99 
 .41 
 .27 
 
 1.35 
 .48 
 .30 
 
 1.83 
 .58 
 .34 
 
 1.90 
 .63 
 .36 
 
 3.02 
 .87 
 .43 
 
 3.35 
 .97 
 .49 
 
 m 
 
 1.07 
 .53 
 
 ( ! ) 
 
 1.22 
 
 .58 
 
 4.47 
 
 1.41 
 
 .66 
 
 ( s ) 
 
 1.51 
 
 .69 
 
 5.70 
 
 1.73 
 
 .77 
 
 ( 2 ) 
 1.80 
 
 .82 
 5.95 
 1.95 
 
 .85 
 
 10. 48 
 .21 
 .21 
 .74 
 .36 
 .27 
 .95 
 .43 
 .29 
 
 1.05 
 .49 
 .32 
 
 1.40 
 .58 
 .35 
 
 1.86 
 .70 
 .40 
 
 1.99 
 .76 
 .42 
 
 3.25 
 
 1.07 
 .52 
 
 3.74 
 
 1.19 
 .59 
 P) 
 
 1.31 
 .58 
 (») 
 
 1.50 
 .70 
 
 5.58 
 
 1.74 
 .80 
 
 C) OI 
 
 1.86 
 .84 
 6.88 
 2.14 
 .94 
 
 ( ! ) 
 2.23 
 1.00 
 7.44 
 2.41 
 1.04 
 
 5 
 
 
 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 
 
 
 10 
 
 
 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 
 
 
 14 
 
 
 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 
 324 
 
 
 18 
 
 
 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 
 484 
 
 
 22 
 
 
 
 &-* 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 
 676 
 
 
 26 
 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 
 900 
 
 
 30 
 
 
 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 
 1,296' 
 
 
 36 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 
 1,600 
 
 
 40 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 
 1,800 
 
 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 
 2,100.. .. 
 
 
 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 
 2,500 
 
 
 50 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 
 2,700 
 
 
 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 
 3,136 
 
 
 SO 
 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 
 3.300 
 
 
 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 
 3,600 
 
 
 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 
 
 Loadings to above weights: 
 
 .01 
 .05 
 .05 
 
 .02 
 .07 
 .05 
 
 .03 
 .08 
 .05 
 
 .04 
 .09 
 .05 
 
 .05 
 .10 
 .05 
 
 
 
 Collect and delivery 
 
 
 
 
 .11 
 
 .14 
 
 .16 
 
 .18 
 
 .20 
 
 
PARCEL POST. 355 
 
 Expository fast-freight express rates, first and sixth classes, etc. — Continued. 
 
 Distance. 
 
 Classes. 
 
 60 
 pounds. 
 
 70 
 pounds. 
 
 80 
 pounds. 
 
 90 
 pounds. 
 
 100 
 pounds. 
 
 Square 
 root. 
 
 Miles. 
 
 
 $0.53 
 .23 
 .23 
 .82 
 .41 
 .30 
 
 1.08 
 .49 
 .33 
 
 1.23 
 .57 
 .36 
 
 1.68 
 .67 
 .40 
 
 2.24 
 .81 
 .45 
 
 2.36 
 .00 
 .48 
 
 3.69 
 
 1.26 
 .60 
 
 4.33 
 
 1.40 
 .69 
 TO 
 
 1.55 
 .73 
 TO 
 
 1.77 
 .82 
 
 6.65 
 
 2.04 
 .93 
 TO 
 
 2.21 
 .99 
 
 8.71 
 
 2.54 
 
 1.11 
 
 TO 
 
 2.65 
 1.15 
 8.92 
 2.87 
 1.24 
 
 $0. 53 
 
 .25 
 
 .25 
 
 .89 
 
 .46 
 
 .33 
 
 1.22 
 
 .55 
 
 .36 
 
 1.43 
 
 .64 
 
 .40 
 
 1.96 
 
 .76 
 
 .45 
 
 2.61 
 
 .93 
 
 .51 
 
 2.75 
 
 1.02 
 
 .54 
 
 4.53 
 
 1.45 
 
 .68 
 
 5.18 
 
 1.62 
 
 .78 
 
 TO 
 
 1.79 
 
 .84 
 
 TO 
 
 2.05 
 
 .94 
 
 7.76 
 
 2.39 
 
 1.07 
 
 TO 
 
 2.56 
 
 1.13 
 
 9.58 
 
 2.95 
 
 1.27 
 
 TO 
 
 3.07 
 
 1.33 
 
 10.44 
 
 3.33 
 
 1.43 
 
 $0.54 
 
 .27 
 
 .27 
 
 .89 
 
 .51 
 
 .36 
 
 1.28 
 
 .61 
 
 .40 
 
 1.58 
 
 .72 
 
 .44 
 
 2.24 
 
 .85 
 
 .47 
 
 2.98 
 
 1.05 
 
 .57 
 
 3.14 
 
 1.15 
 
 .61 
 
 5.17 
 
 1.64 
 
 .76 
 
 5.90 
 
 1.83 
 
 .87 
 
 TO 
 
 2.03 
 
 .86 
 
 TO 
 
 2.33 
 
 1.05 
 
 8.87 
 
 2.72 
 
 1.21 
 
 TO 
 
 2.91 
 1.29 
 
 10.95 
 3.35 
 1.44 
 
 TO 
 3.49 
 1.50 
 
 11.90 
 3.79 
 1.61 
 
 $0.54 
 
 .29 
 
 .29 
 
 .89 
 
 .56 
 
 .39 
 
 1.30 
 
 .68 
 
 .43 
 
 1.80 
 
 .79 
 
 .48 
 
 2.52 
 
 .95 
 
 .54 
 
 3.35 
 
 1.16 
 
 .63 
 
 3.54 
 
 1.28 
 
 .67 
 
 5.82 
 
 1.83 
 
 .84 
 
 6.66 
 
 2.05 
 
 .97 
 
 TO 
 
 2.27 
 
 1.05 
 
 TO 
 
 2.60 
 
 1.17 
 
 9.98 
 
 3.04 
 
 1.34 
 
 TO 
 
 3.26 
 1.43 
 
 12.32 
 3.76 
 1.60 
 
 TO 
 3.92 
 1.68 
 
 13.39 
 4.25 
 1.80 
 
 SO. 54 
 
 .31. 
 
 .31 
 
 .89 
 
 .01 
 
 .42 
 
 1.30 
 
 .74 
 
 .47 
 
 1.77 
 
 .87 
 
 .52 
 
 2.78 
 
 1.04 
 
 .59 
 
 3.70 
 
 1.28 
 
 .68 
 
 3.93 
 
 1.41 
 
 .73 
 
 6.46 
 
 2.02 
 
 .92 
 
 7.40 
 
 2.26 
 
 1.06 
 
 TO 
 
 2.51 
 
 1.16 
 
 TO 
 
 2.88 
 1.29 
 
 11.08 
 3.37 
 1.48 
 
 TO 
 3.61 
 1.57 
 
 13.69 
 4.16 
 1.77 
 
 TO 
 4.34 
 1.85 
 
 14.87 
 4.71 
 1.99 
 
 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 14 
 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 
 
 
 18 
 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 22 
 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 26 
 
 
 First t 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 30 
 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 
 1,296 
 
 
 36 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 
 1,600 
 
 
 40 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 
 
 1,800 
 
 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 
 
 2,100 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 2,500 
 
 
 50 
 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 
 
 2,700 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3,136 
 
 
 56 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 3,300 
 
 
 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 
 
 3,600 
 
 
 60 
 
 
 First 
 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 
 s4! 
 
 Loadings to above weights: 
 
 .06 
 .11 
 .05 
 
 .07 
 .12 
 .05 
 
 .08 
 .13 
 .05 
 
 .09 
 .14 
 .05 
 
 .10 
 .15 
 .05 
 
 
 t*S 
 
 Collect and delivery 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 .22 
 
 .24 
 
 .26 
 
 .28 
 
 .30 
 
 
 ' Rates for distances above 900 miles are calculated in arithmetical proportions of the 900-mile rates for 
 first and second classes. 
 ' Figures not obtained. 
 
 The expository rates above given for first class start at about 
 one-half the express average rates, and decrease gradually until at 
 3,600 miles they are about one-third the express charge. 
 
 The rates suggested under sixth class begin at about one-half also, 
 but decrease more rapidly. At 3,600 miles they are nearly one-eighth 
 of the average express rate. 
 
 Note.— The distance up to 100 miles may be accomplished about as cheaply 
 at postal rates for first class as by the combination of fast freight (75 miles) 
 and postal (25 miles) service. Thus 100 pounds, at postal rates for 100 miles, 
 would be 40 cents, which added to " collect and delivery " and " general ex- 
 pense" (20 cents) makes a rate of 60 cents, the first-class rate for the 
 combination. 
 
356 PAECEL, POST. 
 
 COMPENSATING THE RAILWAYS FOB THEIB SERVICES UNDEB FAST-FBEIGHT EXPRESS. 
 
 In the operation of the proposed agency the Postal Department 
 would collect not only its own but the railway share of the rates 
 exacted of the shipper. The loadings for railway transportation- 
 being known, and the number and character of the shipments, the 
 total amount owing to the railways as a whole would likewise be 
 definitely known. These loadings would go into the railway fund 
 for distribution to the railways. But in what proportion should 
 the fund be distributed? Here again we meet a condition which, 
 while not vital — like transportation accounting — to the economy 
 necessary for a feasible rate, is yet a matter of grave importance. 
 For if the class weights and journeys of the respective shipments 
 have to be related to the specific freight rates of each railway — that 
 is, the place-to-place rates have to be consulted — in order to deter- 
 mine the railway pay, each rate would have to be substantially 
 loaded for the "rate hunting" necessary to determine the railway 
 compensation. 
 
 In a country like ours, under the assumed ideal rates of the rail- 
 way rate maker (rates that the traffic will bear) there will be an 
 approximate, if not a chemical, disposition of the volume of the 
 express traffic to bear a quantitative ratio to the volume of the total 
 traffic of a railway. This is shown generally in the experience of 
 1908 and 1909, when the ratios of the express to the total operating 
 revenues of our railways were 2.45 and 2.47 per cent, respectively. 
 These ratios are almost exactly constant in the operations of the in- 
 dividual railways, and are equally constant proportions of the total 
 railway fund. If it be desired to ascertain the proportion of the 
 ordinary express-railway fund to which the Pennsylvania Kailroad 
 is entitled, three standards suggest themselves : (a) The ratios of its 
 total operating receipts to the total operating receipts of the railways 
 as a whole; (b) the ratio of its total passenger receipts to the passen- 
 ger receipts of the railways as a whole; (e) the ratio of its express 
 receipts to the express receipts of the railways as a whole. Thus, if 
 its total operating receipts constituted 8 per cent of the operating 
 receipts of all the railways, its share of the express-railway fund, 
 $100,000,000 would be $8,000,000. Any one of these standards of 
 distribution would be better founded than the rules for determining 
 postal-railway pay, and even more likely to give a result commen- 
 surate with service and revenue criteria than the wholly indefinite 
 standards contained in the contracts of the express companies with 
 the railways under which, in effect, the rate of railway pay depends 
 wholly upon the express rate maker. The ton-mile rule is unscien- 
 tific, as the Talcott law of rate declension assuredly shows, even if 
 revenue conditions be overlooked. While " any government is better 
 than no government " is a sufficient answer to the proposition that 
 the railway compensation be relegated to the specific freight rates, it 
 is not believed that this argument need be resorted to in defense of 
 either of the standards (a), (b), or (c). With respect to railways 
 conducting a class traffic, substantially exclusively, and a railway 
 conducting a like commodity traffic, i. e., extreme cases of the latter, 
 the car-load freight revenue seems now to be ascertainable by refer- 
 ence to reports of the Interstate Commerce Commission, and it 
 might be found just to deduct such traffic in the interest of correct 
 
PARCEL POST. 357 
 
 ratios. But in the past the railways have been quite willing to in- 
 trust their whole freight revenue. to such ratios. Witness the pool- 
 ing agreements between them, for which a strenuous effort to obtain 
 legislative sanction was made on their behalf. Whatever, in the ab- 
 stract, may be thought the better standard for distributing express- 
 railway pay, it is not thought that any intelligent railway administra- 
 tor would favor the piece method for small consignments. By either 
 of the standards the railway will be relieved of all accounting, and the 
 fast-freight express function equally so, while the small package, 
 with the accounting burden off its back, will become a possible article 
 of transportation commerce. However, the bill leaves the method 
 of paying the respective railways to the board of experts, who, after 
 consultation with railway heads, may adopt the most satisfactory 
 method. 
 
 EATE-MAKING BODY AND REGULATIONS. 
 
 The rates and practices suggested throughout this study are simply 
 expository, as previously stated. With reference to fast-freight ex- 
 press, the rates would have to be compounded from a Averages of many 
 more than those I have used ; and it may be that the amount of traffic 
 moving on the rates used for such averages should also be considered. 
 The rate-making body should have the active cooperation of rail- 
 way rate-makers familiar with traffic conditions in the different sec- 
 tions. Even when the rates are made they should be taken as pro- 
 visional; that is, subject to modification by a rate-making body to 
 which the railway and the public might have ready recourse. 
 
 And this conclusion brings us, beyond recall, to a former conclu- 
 sion. It is that the rate-making function can not be Congress or any 
 of its committees. General principles of social action the Congress 
 is constituted to deal with; but the making of specific rates is as 
 alien to its function as making astronomical calculations. More- 
 over, a law-made rate would be practically unalterable. About once 
 in a generation can Congress act on a given subject (witness postal 
 railway pay), while these rates might require frequent readjustments 
 in such a period, in the interest of traffic mobility, if not the railway 
 pay. There would have to be an administrative tribunal to fix such 
 rates in an initiatory way, with an appeal by the public and the rail- 
 way to the Interstate Commerce Commission, and this tribunal the 
 bili supplies. In this way the necessary elasticity, that is, adapta- 
 bility, of the rate to transportation conditions migh be secured. I 
 ought to remark before concluding that the circumstances of class 
 rates in railway traffic, above the first class, that is, 1£ times, 2 times, 3 
 times, and i times, the first-class rate has not been overlooked. A con- 
 siderable portion of such rates relate to the " set-up " as distinguished 
 from the assembled status of the shipment, a condition which might 
 exclude such article from the projected service. Such subjects would 
 have to be left to regulatory administration and corresponding 
 classes made, if desirable. The regulations necessary to administer 
 these services I will not undertake to discuss. Their development 
 is largely complete in the administration of the express companies; 
 and doubtless a large proportion of the German regulations would be 
 found useful and applicable. As, in given instances, the regula- 
 tion, like a railway practice, may involve serious interests of the 
 
358 PABOEL POST. 
 
 shipper or transporting railway, an appeal should also lie to amend 
 the regulation. 
 
 It has not been possible, as indeed it is not necessary, to discuss the 
 minor details of an operative or fiscal nature involved in the main 
 propositions. It is believed that the principal elements have been 
 considered, at least in a way sufficient to call for judgment. 
 
 GENERAL ELEMENTS OF POSTAL EXPRESS. 
 
 ZONES FOR POSTAL AND FAST-FREIGHT EXPRESS. 
 
 Postal practice and the postage-stamp rate, while it supplies a 
 useful suggestion for simplicity in the rate structure, has been 
 applied to the point of absurdity by the proponents of the parcels 
 post. Its violation of all economic truths, as applied to package 
 transport, has been suggested in an earlier section of this study, and 
 further attention to it is not required. 
 
 Generally speaking, there ought to be as many zones as there are 
 substantially different degrees of service in the extension of the jour- 
 ney. This is true not only on cost reasoning, but because the nearer 
 the price of a service approaches its necessary cost the more effective 
 can be the demand for its use; and the more extensive the resulting 
 traffic. In the application of this truth to parcels weights from ah 
 ounce up to 5 pounds a graduation of the rates into the calculated 
 costs in individual cents may be justified, and with higher weights 
 into the nickel and dime. The problem is one to be best decided by 
 the expert rate makers after receiving the kind and degree of atten- 
 tion which they can, but which Congress could not give the matter. 
 
 Suggestively, however, it may be said that given conditions ought 
 to be generalized — as, for example, the rural haul and service, without 
 reference to its length or the exact circumstances of the particular 
 route. A like rate for all routes might be adopted, while it is not 
 improbable that " collect and delivery " charges, urban and rural, 
 might wisely be made the same, a small subsidy to the rural traffic 
 for the ultimate benefit of town and country. Similarly, rail dis- 
 tances should be treated as economically equal for the same lengths 
 in all parts of the country. And here we come to the zone idea 
 proper. In speaking of zones, people usually have In mind circles 
 with radii, each longer than its predecessor. The Talcott formula, 
 by which the service is regarded as doubling as the distance quad- 
 ruples, seems to express the reasonable application of such zone ideas 
 up to about 900 miles. Beyond this point the increasing zone would 
 seem to violate important laws of economic cost and traffic desiderata. 
 
 In this, as in other matters, the facts should make the law, and the 
 controlling fact for our country is its scale of distances. In Eng- 
 land, where the average freight haul is 25 miles, the differences of 
 lengths of hauls may be almost negligible, and the other elements of 
 service be the dominating ones. With a country 3,000 miles in ex- 
 tent the condition is radically changed. Yet it is thought that as 
 much simplicity as is really of service might be had by adopting 
 for zones distances in miles deduced from the even square-root num- 
 bers, counting from 6 up to 30, i. e., from 36 to 900 miles, as indicated 
 in the tables. For greater distances hundred-mile zones would be 
 necessary to secure an approximation of the rate to the cost of 
 service. These suggestions, taken together, would mean a possible 
 40 zones, embracing an extreme distance of 3,600 miles. In practice, 
 
. 
 
 PAECEL POST. 359 
 
 however, the traffic would move within the zones covered by the Tal- 
 cott law. Even with the flat rate, letters fall within an average haul 
 of 620 miles, about two-thirds only of the extent to which the formula 
 js applicable. 
 
 With the determination of the exact dimensions or number of 
 the zones, as with rates, it is believed the legislator should exercise 
 only an authorizing, and an appellate power; and so this subject 
 is also given by the bill to the administrative function. 
 
 POSTAL ECONOMY, SIMPLICITY, AND EFFICIENCY. 
 
 The plain people of the United States have an abiding confidence 
 in the service value of the American post office; and this is not 
 because of patriotism, but of appreciation of what it does for them. 
 It is the one great transportation institution whose single purpose 
 is "servamus;" and this purpose it does accomplish in a truly 
 wonderful way. Taking a postal card half around the planet for 
 a penny. How this strikes the imagination. But does it pay ? Per- 
 haps not. But what other institution will render such a service to 
 the beggar, and for a beggar's mite? Where others fall it mounts. 
 Where private initiative and private capital, acting on the instinct 
 of self-preservation refuse to go, it harnesses the dog and the rein- 
 deer, and there it goes, carrying the mother's missive and bringing 
 back the filial succor of the explorer's new-found gold. In indi- 
 viduals this would be but ephemeral heroism, and bring certain 
 failure. But the postal system grows with it and seems to thrive. 
 Last year, after giving a subsidy of nearly half its service to educa- 
 tional publication, it made the 2-cent stamps furnish revenue to pay 
 for the whole service. There is spreading through the county a 
 ftemand for penny postage. In terms of European price levels, we 
 have it now. Two-cent postage is nearly universal, but the 2 cents in 
 the United States represents but half the labor that it does beyond 
 the seas. And so the Englishman's 2-cent postage is, in effect but 
 jjBimy-postage here. 
 
 All this is, of course, not a mere product of patriotism ; but it is 
 the zone product of unification of function and a motive to render 
 the utmost service. There is the individual motive, first, to serve 
 yourself, and thus serve others. There is the social motive, practi- 
 cable in a limited number of cases, and it is the motive which, act- 
 ing under conditions of complete coordination of functions, explains 
 the truly incomparable service of our postal organization. 
 
 WOBKING EFFICIENCY. 
 
 There has been a disposition among a certain order of writers to 
 refer the conceded excellency of the operation of public utilities in 
 Germany to the military spirit or to the alleged presence there of a 
 class accustomed to command and a working class equally accuse 
 tamed to obey. Obliged to admit that Germany's experience with 
 
 Sublic functions has been satisfactory these writers insist that our 
 emocracy precludes any such hope in America. They do not speak 
 of mere irregularities here, although these are what they hold up as 
 Evidence for inefficiency, and since such irregularities in foreign 
 
 21845— vol 2—15! 7 
 
860 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
 countries do not get into our press, a kind of unfavorable impression 
 is made. Talk of postal deficits is indulged in as if such deficits were 
 not merely definite statements of the amount of service given the 
 public for which it is not called upon to directly pay. But the point 
 of efficiency involves a wholly different element — the amount of 
 service rendered by the employees. The table shows this service and 
 its extraordinary advancement during a generation, notwithstanding 
 the added burdens, notably, the rural free delivery. 
 
 POSTAL EFFICIENCY TABLE. 
 
 Comparative table of the number of pieces of mail matter handled per employee in England, 
 France, Germany, and the United States at different periods. 
 
 Countries. 
 
 Average number of pieces of mail matter handled 
 per employee in— 
 
 
 1890 
 
 1895 
 
 1900 
 
 1905 
 
 1908 
 
 1909 
 
 
 22,230 
 34,590 
 17,287 
 24,611 
 
 28,775 
 35,700 
 15,638 
 26,235 
 
 28,646 
 38,309 
 20,552 
 32,569 
 
 31,945 
 41,958 
 22,160 
 42,739 
 
 31,117 
 38,241 
 25,901 
 51,591 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 54,239 
 
 
 These averages were reached by dividing the total number of 
 employees engaged in the postal service into the total number of 
 
 Sieces of mail matter for the years given. In the cases of France and 
 rreat Britain the number of employees was diminished by one-fourth, 
 the estimated number employed in the telegraph and telephone serv- 
 ice; in the German figures the same reduction for the telegraph and 
 telephone employees is also made, but is raised to one-third in 1908. 
 The statistics are found in the Union Postale UniverselleStatistiqtie 
 Generale, published at Berne, Switzerland. 
 
 There are, of course, some slight differences of conditions in the 
 work done by the respective postal plants.' Postal savings and par- 
 cels are all the subjects of more extensive service in the foreign 
 examples; but it is believed that these are much more than made up 
 in the United States service by its low density of population, entail 1 
 ing greater railway mail, rural free delivery, and other work expends 
 tures upon the average mail piece. The marked extent of this con- 
 dition is shown by the mere statement of the population per square 
 kilometer of area: Eight for the United States, 73 for France, 146 
 for Great Britain, and 112 for the German Empire. 
 
 THE COST DECLINE. 
 
 Agreeably different from the express charge, the service cost per 
 letter to the patrons of the postal system has progressively decreased 
 for a generation. This is shown in the f ollowing table : 
 
 Year. 
 
 1895 
 1900 
 1905 
 1910 
 
 Number of 
 mailed pieces. 
 
 5,134,281,200 
 
 7,129,990,202 
 
 10,187,505,889 
 
 14,850,102,559 
 
 Postal 
 
 J87,179,551 
 107,319,834 
 146,534,284 
 193,053,487 
 
 per mailed 
 
 CmU. . 
 
 1.70 
 1.49 
 1.42 
 1.30 
 
PARCEL POST. 361 
 
 The figures exclude the cost of rural free delivery in 1905 and 1910 
 when, if that expenditure be included, the cost per mail piece was 
 1.64 and 1.55 cents, respectively. 
 
 UNIFICATION OF POST OFFICE WITH EXPBESS PLANTS. 
 
 The measure designs merging the present express plants into the 
 postal department. Only thus can the postal economies of unity of 
 service be secured, and the rural free delivery and the general cleri- 
 cal agencies be articulated to the express plants. The bill provides 
 for retaining the present express employees without civil-service ex- 
 aminations. In a year or two they should be placed in the same 
 class with railway clerks and mail carriers as to rights and wages. 
 The work of assimilation may require a year or more; meanwhile 
 the employees and the public will be under the service conditions 
 obtaining at the date of the acquisition. It would be impracticable 
 for the Congress to attempt to deal in detail with the new acquisi- 
 tions. Only departmental knowledge and elasticity could plan and 
 execute for the best results. By no means the least advantage to ac- 
 crue from the step would be the sure elevation of the working per- 
 sonnel, an extremely hard-working body of men. To lift 50,000 of 
 these men to the status of the mail clerk and mail carrier is surely a 
 worthy purpose of government. 
 
 ADVANTAGES OF THE EXPRESS SYSTEMS PBOPOSED. 
 
 It is manifestly difficult to describe in detail the manifold effects 
 economically and socially involved in such a system. One of the 
 very important results would be the establishment of a modus op- 
 erandi for the truck farmer and suburban gardener to connect with 
 his. patron. 
 
 The agricultural post. — In the present state of things the truckster 
 and farmer must devote considerable time to marketing; that is, to 
 the transportation of his product, however little it may be, to the 
 place of demand. He must also for this purpose provide himself 
 with transportation facilities, however small his business. These 
 involve a horse and its maintenance and care, and a barn, and the 
 expense of both during the unproductive period. And yet in a 
 socio-economic sense his work and expense of transportation is the 
 smallest element in his service to the public, although it requires 
 the maximum of upkeep and expense, if not of capital. The pro- 
 posed postal, collect and delivery eliminates all these, and would en- 
 able the truck farmer and suburban gardener to enter the business 
 on a minimum of capital and pursue it on a minimum of labor and 
 expense." The field service of a horse he could hire as occasion 
 might require. Thus the truck-farming industry would receive a 
 necessary impetus, and the cost of such foods be greatly reduced to 
 the consumer, saying nothing of the advantage in quality coming 
 from a speedier forwarding to the market by daily allotments instead 
 of the delays now incurred to garner a worth-while load. 
 
 On the margin where the railway terminates and the great rural 
 and agricultural supplies begin there are transportation conditions, or 
 want of conditions, which seem to be vital to the economic prosperity 
 
362 PABCEL POST. 
 
 of the country. Take a coal miner at about 60 years of age. He is 
 still an athlete, but his lungs become incapacitated to breathe the viti- 
 ated air of the coal mines. His arms are good and strong, and he is 
 willing to work, but under present conditions he finds himself unable 
 to shift from the mines to another employment. He may be able to 
 raise three or four hundred dollars to buy a few acres (and there is 
 nearly always plenty of land available for truck farming near the 
 coal mines) and a little cottage to shelter himself and his'wife. 
 
 But that is not all he would have to buy, to-day, in order to go into 
 truck farming — raise the necessaries of life for himself and his wife 
 and sell the excess to those who needed it in the city. Outside 
 of the land and cottage, as things are now, he would have to buy 
 himself a transportation system — a horse and wagon, a barn, and 
 hay. He would have to maintain this transportation system through- 
 out the year, however short the period of actual employment. More- 
 over, since the excess production available for sale would be very 
 small, he would be taking a great deal of time wagoning his small 
 allotments to the town and looking for a market. -But articulate the 
 railway and the city with the country, through the means already 
 in existence — a structure almost complete at this moment — the rural 
 free delivery. The miner could then go into the truck buskess. 
 He would not have -to buy a transportation system and maintain 
 them ; he would not need to rush to the town with every 10-pound 
 load, at great expense of time and labor and with very little economic 
 benefit to the public. Every day, or every other day, or every third 
 day, as might be feasible, the postal van would pass his little truck 
 farm and receive his allotment packed according to regulations. Let 
 me pay that this is no dream. I know it is the situation presented 
 to nearly every coal miner at some periqd of his life. How far it 
 would be true of men who have tired of the city, of the laborer who 
 has been thrown on the scrap heap, unable to secure his old employ- 
 ment there; to what extent he would want to become a small truck 
 farmer — poor, perhaps, but independent and self-sustaining — I can 
 only have a speculative opinion. But ought not the opportunity 
 be present ? A most interesting monograph, " An agriculture parcel 
 post," by the Hon. J. Henniker Heaton, M. P., is inserted among the 
 appendices. While this subject is dealt with here in a few words, 
 it is none the less true that the farm and suburban forms of produc- 
 tion can be so articulated with the points oirconsumption as to prove 
 of inestimable value to both. A lively description of the' system hi 
 Germany, by the Hon. J. C. Monaghan,, formerly American consul 
 there, is also given in the appendices. 
 
 Even under the largely impossible conditions of land values." in 
 Great Britain, this result has largely worked itself out. The vital 
 necessaries can be obtained fresh from the suburban gardener and 
 farmer with the certainty and the celerity of the mail. Besides cre- 
 ating a new industry here, suburban gardening, where land is plenty 
 for this purpose, it should introduce another element of great desir- 
 ability. Now the consumer has no one to blame for bad butter, etc. 
 The producer or the time of production he does not know. In the 
 new situation the producer has a personal relation with his cus- 
 tomers, who can hold him responsible, and, if necessary, punish de- 
 linquency with loss of trade. 
 
 I have had an intelligent farmer go over the incidental products of 
 his farm, which, when produced in less than wagon-load quantities, 
 
PARCEL POST. 363 
 
 can only be marketed at terrific economic expense. His list includes 
 the following, as to which, if the service included the collection of the 
 price, he says he would ship by the postal van and save the value of 
 his presence on the farm : 
 
 Eggs, (dozen). Apples. 
 
 Butter. Pears. 
 
 Dressed poultry. String beans. 
 
 Meat, country cured. String peas. 
 
 Celery. Carrqts. 
 
 Tomatoes. Parsnips. 
 
 Fruits. Beets. 
 
 Berries, various. Sweet corn. 
 
 Cauliflower. Salsify. 
 
 Catobage. Honey. 
 Turnips. 
 
 The Postal Department would be chiefly concerned in seeing that 
 these services produced a total revenue sufficient to pay the total 
 expense. A flat rate per pound might prove too high for the market- 
 ability of some of these articles, and yet be much less than the 
 others could well pay and move to market. And so. while actual 
 distance in the rural route, on grounds of general expediency, should 
 not be considered, it is believed that the marketability of the article 
 should be considered in determining the rate it should bear. It may 
 be said that many of these articles are now more cheaply conveyed 
 by wagon loads. This is true under certain conditions, but it is 
 equally true that when so conveyed the consumer gets no advantage. 
 The wagon load goes to the commission man and then indirectly 
 only to the consumer. Meanwhile the inevitable act of distribution 
 and delivery in quantities to suit the consumer must still be per- 
 formed^ — with no lessening of economic cost because " put off " in- 
 stead of primarily performed. Meanwhile, too, the price to the 
 consumer has gone up to a point which dumbfounds the producing 
 farmer. 
 
 Relieving the high cost of living. — As the President has stated, 
 the high cost of living is unquestionably bound up in this legislation. 
 The vital necessaries are not too high at the farm, nor yet when the 
 mere cost of transportation is added. But our processes of trans- 
 portation, where they exist, are such as to wholly exclude the con- 
 sumer from direct contact with the farmer ; they are 100 pounds and 
 20 tons processes, not practical for the consumer. The individual 
 farmer is helpless to correct the uneconomic rural transportation. 
 The individual railway or express company is equally helpless to 
 correct theirs. The people's transportation system, so far as allowed, 
 can correct the deficiencies of both, and only awaits the license of 
 Congress to perform its function, enable the railway to carry the 
 shipments in quantities to suit the consumers' needs, and provide 
 a direct conduit through which may flow the vital necessaries on the 
 farms from their producers direct to the mouths that eat them in 
 the towns and cities. 
 
 The following table, giving the prices of six of the prime, vital 
 necessaries, as sold by the farmer, by the wholesaler, and the .prices 
 finally paid by the consumers, is based on the quotations of the 
 Washington market for a single day. The third and eighth columns 
 give the prices paid that day by the consumers, and the seventh, 
 ninth, and tenth columns the prices to the consumers under a system 
 of transportation such as is here urged, carrying the article directly 
 
364 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
 from the farmer to the consumer in the quantities set forth as 
 " units of shipment " ; that is, in quantities to suit the needs of an' 
 average family. 
 
 Table showing effect on high cost of living and prices of the vital necessaries 
 of a system of transportation direct from the producer mi the farm to the 
 consumer in the towns and the cities. 
 
 
 Present system of costs to con- 
 sumer. 
 
 System of costs to consumer under 
 postal express. 
 
 Article sold and amount of 
 shipment. 
 
 Sold to 
 
 consumer 
 
 at— 
 
 Wholesale 
 price. 
 
 Sold by 
 producer 
 
 Direct 
 price plus 
 
 postal 
 rural trans- 
 portation. 
 
 Direct 
 
 price plus 
 
 36 miles 
 
 railway 
 
 haul. 
 
 Direct 
 
 price plus 
 
 100 miles 
 
 railway 
 
 haul. 
 
 
 $0.66 
 .70 
 1.05 
 .54 
 
 1.80 
 . 80-1. 00 
 
 $0.52 
 .42 
 .84 
 .33 
 
 1.10 
 .50 
 
 $0.44 
 .35 
 .72 
 .24 
 
 .80 
 .30 
 
 $0.49 
 .40 
 .77 
 .29 
 
 .89 
 .40 
 
 $0.51 
 .42 
 .79 
 .31 
 
 .94 
 .52 
 
 $0. 52 
 .43 
 .80 
 .32 
 
 .97 
 
 Dressed fowl (3$ pounds) 
 
 Country sausage (3 pounds) 
 
 Country - cured hams (10 
 
 
 
 
 Total 
 
 5. 55-5. 75 
 
 3.71 
 
 2.85 
 
 3.24 
 .24 
 
 3.49 
 .33 
 
 
 Reduction in transportation 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Note. — The last three columns represent the price of the shipment with the estimated cost of transporta- 
 tion added to the price at which the article sold in the country, as stated in (he fourth column above. 
 
 It appears that the cost of these indispensable necessaries may be 
 reduced about two-fifths, or from $5.55 to $3.24, in price to the con- 
 sumer by the simple expedient of a direct from-farmer-to-consumer 
 method of transportation. In instances where the farmer and con- 
 sumer were unknown to each other a small charge of from 3 to 5 
 cents would have to be added to pay the cost of collecting the price 
 and remitting it to the farmer. But where established custom ob- 
 tained even this charge would not be necessary, as periodic settle- 
 ments would take the place of the C. O. D. practice. A line in the 
 local paper would inform the consumer as to prices and the pro- 
 ducer; and a postal card or a phone call would inform the pro- 
 ducer of the consumer's wants. The postal transportation conduit 
 would then pass the articles from producer to consumer, and col' 
 lect and remit the farmer the price, if required. The latter would 
 not, as an intelligent constituent writes me, have to leave his farm 
 to market a small allotment, when, as he explains : 
 
 It sometimes happens that on the day that I must go to market a field is in 
 ideal condition to be prepared for planting a crop, or to cultivate a growing 
 crop, or a field of hay or grain is ready to be put in the mow ; but I must go to 
 town to dispose of my produce. 
 
 Advantages (resume). — In a few years, under the postal manage- 
 ment, it is thought that the reformed and reconstructed express sys- 
 tem would give the country — - 
 
 (a) A minimum charge of 5 cents for the first pound graduated 
 to abqut 10 cents for a 5-pound package as to the average distances; 
 with a reduction of about one-half in the rates on longer passenger- 
 merchandise rates; and fast-freight rates even lower than these. 
 
 (b) The articulation of the railway service with the out-of-town 
 and agricultural population. 
 
PARCEL POST. 365 
 
 (c) The relief of the high cost of living by effectually coupling up 
 the country supply of the vital necessaries with urban demands by 
 a direct, workable, cheap collection and delivery, and railway service. 
 
 (d) Kural delivery being thus made self-sustaining, at length, 
 perhaps, a sufficient contribution to penny postage. 
 
 THE OPPOSITION. 
 
 To a large extent the railways are the stockholders of the express 
 companies. Their managers are sufficiently intelligent to understand 
 inevitable tendencies. They know the status quo certainly involves 
 reductions of express rates by the Interstate Commerce Commission, 
 which would automatically reduce the express railway pay. If the 
 reductions only amounted to 10 per cent, the railways would lose 
 over $6,000,000 in their compensation, since the express contracts 
 provide not for fixed or pound compensation, but for a percentage 
 of the express rates as collected. Moreover, the railways will also 
 see that adequate express transportation would inevitably treble the 
 traffic; so that in a year or two the $60,000,000 they now receive from 
 this source should amount to over a hundred millions at an incon- 
 siderable additional cost to the plant. The railways will likely see 
 as well a fine opportunity to substantially promote the public wel- 
 fare, with results to themselves as beneficial as to the country at 
 large. 
 
 There is no negative opposition — I mean there is no inertia of 
 public opinion on the subject. There is, perhaps, no reform as to 
 which there has been a longer, a more persistent, or a more general 
 demand for congressional action, and perhaps there is no other 
 single failure of Congress to gratify public demand that has pro- 
 duced so much of the spirit of distrust existing among thoughtful 
 people toward their representatives. The retail merchant will not be 
 found opposing a method of relief from the express situation which 
 embraces the whole people, including himself, while relieving the 
 high cost of living as to which he has been subjected to much unjust 
 blame. 
 
 PUBLIC OPINION. 
 
 Independently of the matter-of-fact disclosures brought out in this 
 study, which seem to have thus far escaped public notice, public dis- 
 satisfaction with the express company has reached the point of em- 
 phatic intolerance. I do not repeat or even refer to recent incidents 
 and events, except to say that the express company employees, and 
 their compulsory patrons, have shown, and are showing, this disposi- 
 tion. It is, perhaps, literally true, for various causes, that these com- 
 panies have no friendly support except from their stockholders, and 
 not from all of them ; and when it is considered that the express com- 
 pany is not a normal transportation agency, but an economic parasite 
 existing as a squatter on the postal function, and like other parasites 
 feeding at an inordinate expense to the sustaining subject, it may be 
 realized that this dissatisfaction is likely to last. The express part 
 of the function is usually elsewhere discharged by the post and the 
 railway; the former performing the collect and delivery service in 
 Belgium, Austria, and Germany up to the 100-pound limit, entailing 
 but one profit, the railway profit, which, theoretically, might be kept 
 within bounds, and excluding the express company profit, which m 
 
366 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 its nature defies prudent and effective reduction, although consti- 
 tuting an egregious percentage on the actual investment. When all 
 this is taken with the exorbitant rates and the inadequate service, 
 the constant feeling of alienation of the public toward these com- 
 panies is comprehensible enough. 
 
 APHORISTIC STATESMEN. 
 
 There is a growing suspicion of the intellectual fiteess, if not of 
 the sincerity, of public men who in office always meet proposals in 
 the public interests with some killing adage or other, such as "tine 
 least government is the best government," " concentration of 
 power," " paternalism," etc. These maxims, mostly invented it the 
 eighteenth century, were designed to fight injustice and tyranny 
 not to defend them; to make government more democratic, and its 
 agencies more truly promotive of the public welfare. As adages they 
 served their purpose at the time, but it is hardly sane to accept them 
 now as scientific f ormulse for the determination of twentieth-century 
 programs of improvements, and as substitutes for the consideration 
 of measures on their merits. That the best modern tbougfet dis- 
 countenances such inconsiderate use of mere apothegms needs hardly 
 to be proved, yet I am sure the reader will feel interested in an 
 appendix to my remarks giving the views of America's foremost 
 sociologist on this subject. I should not leave this paragraph with- 
 out saying that the proposition is not new in any sense, except our 
 provincial neglect to follow the example of all other nations; that 
 the post office would not be trespassing on an alien function, but 
 merely extending its administration to fully cover a field of its own, 
 and a function it alone can efficiently discharge. 
 
 What is the first law of business and industry? It is that thie 
 inefficient must give way. For centuries the less efficient man has 
 given way to the more efficient machine. If this law has no excep- 
 tion for the breadwinner and the right of God's creatures to earn 
 their bread in the sweat of their faces, why should its operation be 
 suspended for an economic parasite, rendering only half service and 
 exacting double pay? 
 
 Let us not deceive ourselves as to regulating the express charges. 
 We can not practice therapeutics on a parasite. According to the 
 necessities of its being it makes war on the life of its sustaining 
 subject; and this not only justifies, but necessitates its own extinc- 
 tion. All publicists and economists agree in the parasitic verdict, 
 that the express company should be extinguished. 
 
 But what is needed is the statesman's constructive purpose. The 
 inertia of the last generation, the tories' deeds of omission and of 
 commission, the evolution of the high-priced monopolies, and almost 
 utter neglect of transportation policy have produced in this richest 
 and most fertile of countries the consumer who finds it difficult -to 
 purchase his necessaries though working on full time, and on Ml 
 pay. The association of defective transportation methods with the 
 condition has been methodically pointed out t And the thoroughly 
 tested agency essential to relief is our own instrumentality, the 
 most proficient of all government, and, perhaps, of ail transpOrtaticffi 
 agencies. It has been the boast of our history that when the crisis 
 enme the statesmanship was not wanting. May it not fail us now in 
 a situation as full of opportunity as it is of peril for the i country .' 
 
APPENDIXES. 
 
 Appendix A. — The bill and law notes. 
 
 Appendix B. — Data of express and 
 freight traffic In different coun- 
 tries. 
 
 Appendix C. — Capital balance sheet of 
 American express companies. 
 
 Appendix D. — Express statistics 3909, 
 1910, 1911. 
 
 Appendix E. — Ten examples of actual 
 express rates from 5 to 100 pounds, 
 for distances of 36 to 3,600 miles. 
 
 Appendix F. — Analysis of operating 
 expenses of express companies and 
 predicated savings. 
 
 Appendix G.— Summary of express- 
 railway contracts. 
 
 Appendix H. — Pound and parcels ex- 
 press company data. 
 
 Appendix I. — Monthly payment rev- 
 enue and expenses. 
 
 Appendix J. — Mileage covered by ex- 
 press companies. 
 
 Appendix K. — Cost of real property 
 and equipment. 
 
 Appendix L. — Inventory value of 
 equipment 
 
 Appendix M. — Operating income and 
 expenditures. 
 
 Appendix N. — Operating revenue. 
 
 Appendix O. — American postal effi- 
 ciency. 
 
 Appendix P. — British, French, and Ger- 
 man postal efficiency. 
 
 Appendix Q. — Letter British post- 
 master general on relative number 
 of postal, telephone, and telegraph 
 employees. 
 
 Appendix R.— Service cost of Amer- 
 ican mail. 
 
 Appendix S. — Examples of postal ex- 
 press. 
 
 Appendix T. — Comparative express 
 and freight traffic per capita iu dif- 
 ferent countries. 
 
 Appendix TJ. — The parcel-post system 
 of Germany. 
 
 Appendix V.— Cost of railway trans- 
 portation of mails, etc. 
 
 Appendix W. — An agricultural parcel 
 post, by J. Heuniker Heaton, M. P. 
 
 Appendix X. — Express rates in Great 
 Britain. 
 
 Appendix Y. — Letter of Postmaster 
 General : Number served by rural 
 free delivery and by urban delivery. 
 
 Appendix Z. — The sociological view. 
 
 Appendix AA. — Summary of parcels- 
 post biils. 
 
 Appendix AB. — Representative freight 
 rates, various distances. 
 
 Appendix AC. — Letter Assistant Post- 
 master General. 
 
 Appendix A. 
 
 A BILL Providing for the condemnation and purchase of the franchises, etc., of the 
 express companies of the United States and the establishment of postal and fast- 
 freight express. 
 
 CONDEMNATION. OF EXPRESS COMPANY FKANCH1SES. 
 
 Be it enacted by 'the'Senate and House of Representatives of the United States 
 of America in Congress assembled, That in order to promote the postal service 
 and more efficiently regulate commerce between the several States, the Terri- 
 tories of the United States, the District of Columbia, the possessions of the 
 United States, and foreign nations, the contracts and agreements (note one) and 
 arrangements of the several express companies with the several railroad com- 
 panies of the United States, Ms Territories, and the District of Columbia relat- 
 ing to the carriage and transportation, and storage and care, by such railroad 
 company of parcels, packets and packages, and other express matter, as well as 
 the franchises, operating equipment, cars, vehicles, horses, buildings, leases as 
 lessees, of buildings used in the conduct of the express buiness, and all other 
 property -or rights and privileges owned and used by such express companies as 
 necessary and appropriate to such dispatch, receipt, collection, delivery, or 
 transportation of such parcels, packets, packages, and express matter are hereby 
 declared to be, and the same are hereby, condemned and appropriated (note two) 
 to and for the use of the United States of America, to be used by it for such 
 public purposes as may be proper in its various functions. That the words 
 "express company," as used in this act, Shall be construed to include any 
 corporation, individual, partnership, association, or joint-stock association, as 
 
 367 
 
368 PARCEL POST. 
 
 far as engaged In the dispatch of parcels, packets, packages, and other express 
 matter by railway, express, or steamship, including the receipt, collection, or 
 delivery of the same. And the words "railroad company" shall be construed 
 to include any transportation agency as far as used as a post route or iri 
 carrying express matter. (Note three.) On and after July first, nineteen hun- 
 dred and thirteen, any railroad, steamship, or other transportation agency 
 having a contract with any express company subject to this act shall transport 
 and carry for the Post Office Department all matter transportable under said 
 contract, and shall execute and perform with respect to such Post Office Depart- 
 ment all such duties as have been customary under such contract in relation to 
 the express company or companies named therein, and shall permit its agents 
 and employees to continue to discharge such services in respect thereto and 
 upon like terms without interference on its part. And as to all matter trans- 
 portable under such contract the Post Office Department shall have a monopoly 
 of the express transportation thereof. (Note four.) 
 
 DTJTY OF PRESIOENT AND POSTMASTER GENERAL. 
 
 Sec. 2. That it shall be the duty of the President, on the first' day of July, 
 nineteen hundred and thirteen, to take charge and possession of all the property 
 of such express companies condemned and appropriated in section one of this 
 act. in the name of and by the authority of the United States of America; and 
 thereupon it shall be the duty of the Postmaster General to employ said property 
 and facilities as hitherto employed in conjunction with the postal service, and 
 to henceforth conduct said express service. 
 
 Sec. 3. That it shall be the duty of the Interstate Commerce Commission upon 
 the passage of this act and after due consideration to submit a list of seven 
 persons, expert in transportation economics, with its recommendations, to 
 the President, who shall appoint therefrom three of said persons, judged most 
 competent, who shall, if the Senate consent thereto, hold office for the term of 
 four years and receive a salary of seven thousand dollars each. Said three per- 
 sons shall act as a board of experts and, subject to the confirmation of their 
 orders by the Postmaster General, shall have power — 
 
 (a) To devise classifications of parcels, packets, packages, and other ship- 
 ments, and to regulate the forms and conditions for the shipment thereof. 
 
 (ft) To fix charges for collecting, receiving, transporting, by railroad or other- 
 wise, and delivering of matter under paragraph (a), and such charges may be by 
 zones reasonably related to the cost of service. 
 
 (c) And they shall base such charges upon the amount of service to be ren- 
 dered, considering distance transported and other service elements and risk 
 involved therein, making the charges adequate to paying the cost of the service, 
 including interest charges. 
 
 id) To make all regulations which may be necessary for insuring payment of 
 charges and the safe, expeditious, economical, and profitable administration of 
 such service. 
 
 (e) To make regulations defining the rights and duties of the employees in 
 such service: and they shall retain, so far as necessary, those formerly em- 
 ployed by the express companies, who shall not be required to pass civil-service 
 examination. 
 
 (/) To determine by regulation the wages payable to such ■ employees, the 
 sick leave or vacation periods, and the necessary qualifications of employees 
 for service and promotion. 
 
 (#) To provide for a. system of insurance of employees against accident) to 
 be paid for by the department. 
 
 (h) To declare by rules under what circumstances and to what extent matter 
 received for shipment under paragraph (a) may be insured against loss, and 
 provide rates for the special insurance thereof, and rules for the indemnification 
 of shippers. 
 
 (i) To make agreements with carrying railroads or other agencies of tral } si 
 portation for the carriage or extension of service of such matter, subject to the 
 appeal hereinafter provided, to the Interstate Commerce Commission. 
 
 (/) To establish from time to time, and in such places as they may by rule 
 determine, rural collection and delivery and urban collection and delivery for 
 such parcels, packets, packages, and postal matter and express matter as tney 
 may determine upon and under such regulations as to rates and conditions oi 
 carriage thereof as they may deem prudent 
 
 (fc) To provide, as far as possible, for the exemption of postal express em- 
 ployees from labor on the Sabbath. 
 
PARCEL POST. 369 
 
 (Z) To make all other regulations necessary for the efficient and economical 
 operation of the service and to provide all means necessary for the safe and 
 expeditious transportation and forwarding of money and credit, and to fix the 
 rates therefor, and to make all regulations deemed essential thereto, and to 
 provide means to discharge all other functions which they may deem proper 
 hitherto discharged by express companies, and to make any other regulations 
 essential In relation thereto. 
 
 But from any action of the Postmaster General in confirming regulations 
 under paragraphs (a), (6), (c), (d), (i), (;), and (I) hereof an appeal shall 
 lie by any party competent under the net to regulate commerce dated the fourth 
 day of February, eighteen hundred and eighty-seven, and the amendments 
 thereto, to the Interstate Commerce Commission, which shall have power to 
 vevise and amend the said regulations. 
 
 COMPENSATION FOR RAILROAD TRANSPORTATION. 
 
 Sec. 4. That during the months of August and December, nineteen hundred 
 and twelve, and April, nineteen hundred and thirteen, the weights of matter 
 carried over the respective railroads under contracts with the express com- 
 panies, during the dependency thereof, shall be carefully taken for each railroad 
 company in respect to such contract ; and the amount of money paid for the 
 carriage thereof shall be divided by the mileage of such railway over which 
 such matter is carried ; and thereafter the Postmaster General shall, if the rail- 
 road company consent thereto, cause to be paid to such railroad company the 
 amount per mile owing to such railroad under such contract as thus com- 
 puted; and thereafter, annually, at such times as may be determined upon by the 
 Postmaster General, such matter shall be weighed, and the railroad company 
 shall be paid monthly for the excess weight carried by it, over the first weigh- 
 ing herein provided, such sums as may be agreed upon for such excess weights; 
 but if said Postmaster General and such railroad company shall fail to agree 
 upon a different basis of compensation for such excess weights, then the same 
 shall be paid for according to the terms and provisions of the contract con- 
 demned in such case. 
 
 RENEWAL OF TRANSPORTATION CONTRACTS. 
 
 Sec. 5. That at the expiration of any contract, between an express company 
 and a railroad, condemned by this act (or at any time before, if such railroad 
 company shall consent thereto), the Postmaster General may contract with such 
 railroad company for the transportation of postal express matter; and, if 
 deemed advantageous, upon cars provided by the department, which may be 
 transferred without unloading onto the lines of other railroad companies, 
 and at such rate of compensation and upon such principles of computation 
 thereof, by car or car-space mileage, or otherwise, as may be agreed upon. 
 But an appeal shall lie, for the purpose of review, to the Interstate Commerce 
 Commission by any party competent under the act to regulate commerce, from 
 such contract, whereupon the Interstate Commerce Commission shall have the 
 power to revise and amend and define and declare the terms and conditions 
 of said contract. And in case the Postmaster General and such railroad com- 
 pany, after the expiration of the contract with an express company, shall fail 
 to agree upon the terms and provisions of the renewal thereof, they shall 
 submit their respective contentions and propositions with reference thereto to 
 he said Interstate Commerce Commission, which shall thereupon have plenary 
 power to declare the terms and provisions which said contract shall contain. 
 And from any determination with respect to any contract the terms and pro- 
 visions of which have been declared by the said Interstate Commerce Com- 
 mission under this section, an appeal shall lie to the Court of Commerce, which 
 shall enjoy like power to revise and amend the same. 
 
 APPRAISEMENT OF EXPRESS COMPANY FRANCHISES, ETC. 
 
 Sec. 6. That immediately after the passage of this act it shall be the duty of 
 the Interstate Commerce Commission to appraise (Note 5) the values of the 
 contracts, agreements, franchises, equipment, buildings, and other property of 
 whatsoever kind, condemned and appropriated by the United States in section 
 one of this act, and award to the respective express companies just compensa- 
 tion therefor. Each commissioner shall take oath to justly perform such duty 
 before some judge of the courts of the United States. The said Interstate Com- 
 merce Commission shall have power and it shall be its duty to summon \\ 
 
370 PARCEL POST. 
 
 nesses, with books and papers, before it for either of the parties, and require 
 such witnesses to testify, and it shall give to each party a full hearing with 
 reference to the amount of compensation which shall be awarded to each ex- 
 press company under this act; and it shall be the duty of such commission, on 
 or before the seventh day of May, nineteen hundred and thirteen, to file a 'sepa- 
 rate award of appraisement,' giving just compensation to each express company 
 for its property condemned under this act, and give notice of the filing of such 
 award to the Postmaster General and to such express company. And if either 
 party shall be dissatisfied with the amount of said award the same may, on ap- 
 peal by either party, be reviewed and revised by the Court of Commerce, sitting 
 .is a court of review, with respect thereto ; and from its determination a further 
 appeal may lie on behalf of either Of the parties to the Supreme Court of the 
 United States, to determine the amount of the just compensation to which said 
 express company shall be entitled. 
 
 PROVISIONS FOB COMPENSATION OF EXPRESS COMPANIES. 
 
 Sec. 7. That the Secretary of the Treasury is hereby authorized and directed 
 to make payment to such express companies of the money adjudged to be due 
 them as aforesaid out of the Treasury of the United States, and said express 
 companies shall be entitled to payment of such final award as compensation 
 from the Treasury of the United States, and the amounts of said award are 
 hereby appropriated to the parties entitled thereto out of the Treasury of the 
 United States. Any party interested in the distribution of such compensation 
 money may petition the circuit court of the United States having jurisdiction 
 of the subject matter, which court shall thereupon distribute the compensation 
 directly by proper audits to the several stockholders, bondholders, partners, or 
 individuals entitled thereto; and in such cases the Treasurer of the United 
 States shall pay out such compensation as such court may direct; and the 
 parties to whom the same may be paid shall assign their rights unto the 
 United States with reference thereto, whereupon the United States shall enjoy 
 the same rights find the same power under the same as the assignor enjoyed 
 prior to such condemnation. 
 
 ISSUE OP BONDS AND REDEMPTION OF THE SAME. 
 
 Sec 8. That the Secretary of the Treasury shall cause to be issued in proper 
 form the bonds of the United States of America in a sum equal to the aggre- 
 gate valuation of such express companies, as determined by the awards herein- 
 before provided for. Said bonds Shall be payable within forty years from the 
 date of issue and bear interest at the rate of per cent, and such Treasu- 
 rer shall maintain a fund for the payment of such interest and the redemption 
 of the bonds issued under this act ; and for such purpose the Postmaster Gen- 
 eral shall pay, out of the receipts of his department, under the. Secretary of 
 the Treasury, a sum equal to such interest and a redemption sum equal to 
 one per cent of the aggregate awards to such express companies each year, 
 which sum shall be payable quarterly. The said fund shall be invested from 
 time to time in such securities as the Secretary of the Treasury may deem 
 secure and profita-ble. The swm of two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, or 
 so much thereof as may t>e necessary, is 'hereby appropriated Out of the 
 Treasury of the United States to the Postmaster General and ffie Department 
 of Justice, to be used, so far as necessary, upon their order in defraying the 
 expense incident to acquiring such property. 
 
 ESTABLISHMENT OF FASf-FKEIGHT EXP8ESS SERVICE. 
 
 Sec. 9. That there is hereby established, and the Postmaster General shall 
 conduct, as soon as may be practicable, a fast-freight express service; and there 
 shall be received therein, and transported over the railways of the United 
 States and such water agencies as may be determined upon by the board of 
 experts, such articles for shipment, and to such weights, not exceeding one 
 hundred pounds, as, subject to the confirmation of the Postmaster General, 
 may be determined upon by said board of experts; and they shall have the 
 same powers with respect to such shipments as are given them in section three 
 of this act, and in addition to such powers they shall have power, with respect 
 to such fast-freight service, to 
 
 (a) Formulate and establish a classification of the articles transportable 
 under this section, to conform, as near as may be, to the classifications of the 
 railways. 
 
PARCEL POST. 371 
 
 (6) Determine similarly the classes into which such articles shall be 
 assigned. 
 
 (c) Establish the rates for the care and carriage of such articles and the 
 proportions of such rates which shall become payable to the railway or water 
 carriers as compensation for their services. 
 
 (d) Determine the method or methods of ascertaining the amounts, respec- 
 tively, payable such carriers for their services, and the times of payment. 
 
 (e) Employ the postal cars or passenger-baggage cars, at such places as are 
 not served by fast-freight facilities, for limited distances, to expedite such ship- 
 ments, paying therefor the rates lawfully established ; but such payment shall 
 not exceed the rates charged by the carrier, per pound, to other shippers for 
 maximum weights, minimum charges or regulations of the carrier to the con- 
 trary notwithstanding. 
 
 And from all orders of said board of experts, when confirmed by the Post- 
 master General under paragraphs (a), (6), (c), (<i), and (c) of this section, 
 an appeal may be taken to the Interstate Commerce Commission by an carrier 
 affected thereby, or by any party legally competent to file a petition with paid 
 Interstate Commerce Commission under the act of Congress approved Feb- 
 ruary fourth, eighteen hundred and eighty-seven, and the amendments thereto ; 
 which right of petition is hereby granted to the Postmaster General as to any 
 rate or practice of such carrier affecting the service hereby established : Pro- 
 vided, That in case the loadings of the fast freight rates hereunder for the 
 payment of the carrier on any shipment carried by it shall be less per pound 
 than its hundred-pound lawful rate applicable thereto if the shipment weighed 
 one thousand pounds, then such carrier shall be entitled to a lien on said ship- 
 ment for the difference according to its weight; and the Postmaster General 
 shall make proper regulations for the collection of such difference from the 
 consignee or consignor before delivery of the shipment. The carriers by rail- 
 road-and by water which are subject to the power of Congress are hereby 
 required to perform such services for the postal department as may upon the 
 advice of the board of experts be ordered by the Postmaster General, and for 
 such compensation as may be provided therefor, subject to the action, on appeal, 
 of the Interstate Commerce Commission; and for any willful failure or refusal 
 to perform the services required by any valid order of the said Postmaster 
 General the said carrier shall be subject to indictment, and the payment on con 
 viction of a fine of one thousand dollars. 
 
 POWERS OF POSTMASTER GENERAL. 
 
 Sec. 10. That the Postmaster General shall have power to rent, tease, or 
 purchase real" estate and personal property, supplies, cars, and equipment for 
 use by his department for the purposes of this act. He shall! have power to 
 condemn in the name of the United States any, property, real, personal, or 
 mixed, which he may deem necessary for the efficient operation of the service, 
 but the said Interstate Commerce Commission shall first value and file its award 
 therefor, as hereinbefore specified. 
 
 Note 1, section 1: "Contracts are property, and as such may be condemned and 
 taken under the law of eminent domain." (10 Am. and Eng. Ency., p. 1089; Dodge 
 v. Woolsey, 18 Howard (U. S.), 379; Nichols on Eminent Domain, sec. 315.) 
 
 Note 2, section 1: The United States possesses the power of eminent domain, which 
 it may exercise to promote any of its constitutional powers. (10 Am. and Eng. Ency., 
 p. 1051; Kohl v. U. S., 91 U. S., 367; 15 Cyc, p. 564-565.) The United States may 
 condemn interstate railways. (Nichols on Eminent Domain, sec. 23; Wilson v. Shaw, 
 204 U. S., 24; Monongahela case, 148 U. &., 341-342.) 
 
 Note 3, section 1: This power of condemnation may be exercised directly by the 
 legislative branch. The only limitation is that just compensation shall be provided 
 for. (10 Am. and Eng. Ency., p. 1068; Secombe v. Milwaukee, 23, Wall., 108.) 
 
 Note 4, section 2: In those cases where the condemnor is the sovereign the compen- 
 sation need not be tendered or ascertained in advance of the taking. It is only neces- 
 sary that adequate provision be made for compensation. (10 Am. and Eng. Ency., 
 p. 1142, note 2; Nichols on Eminent Domain, sec. 263; Sweet v. Rechel, 159 U. S., 
 380; Williams v. Parker, 188 U. S., 491.) 
 
 Note 5, section 5: The owner of property condemned by the United States is not 
 entitled to a jury, but commissioners may determine the amount of compensation, 
 etc. (Nichols on Eminent Domain, sees. 302, 306; U. S. v. Jones, 109 U. S., 513, 
 569; 169 U. S., 567; 11 Peters, 420, 571; 148 U. 8., 312, 327.) 
 
372 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
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PARCEL, POST. 373 
 
 Appendix C. 
 
 General balance-sheet statement as of June SO, 1909. 
 
 [Annual report express companies.] 
 
 Expenditures for real property $14, 932, 169. 94 
 
 Expenditures for equipment 7, 381, 405. 59 
 
 Stocks owned 40,912,980.55 
 
 Funded debt owned 45, 955, 672. 54 
 
 Other permanent investments 25, 438, 584. 11 
 
 Cash and current assets 33, 682, 608. 88 
 
 Materials and supplies 138, 210. 78 
 
 Sinking, insurance, and other funds 128, 491. 83 
 
 Advance payments on contracts 5,836,666. 67 
 
 Franchises, good will, etc 10, 877, 369. 74 
 
 Other assets 846, 090. 33 
 
 Profit and loss 91, 129. 58 
 
 Total assets 186, 221, 380. 54 
 
 Liabilities: 
 
 Capital stock 53, 350, 700. 00 
 
 Funded debt 36, 000, 000. 00 
 
 Current liabilities 24, 980, 828. 23 
 
 Other liabilities 21,273,493.78 
 
 Profit and loss 50,616,358.53 
 
 c i 
 
 Total liabilities 186, 221, 380. 54 
 
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 9 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 
 381 
 
 Appendix F. 
 
 Analysis of 'operating expenses of express companies for the year ending June SO, 1909, with 
 
 predicated savings under postal express. 
 
 [Interstate Commerce Report, 1911.] 
 
 Accounts. 
 
 Total operating expenses 
 
 Maintenance: 
 
 1. Superintendence 
 
 2. Buildings, fixtures, and grounds.. 
 
 3. Office equipment 
 
 4. Cars— Repairs , 
 
 5. Cars— Renewals 
 
 6. Cars— Depreciation 
 
 7. Horses 
 
 8. Vehicles — Repairs 
 
 9. Vehicles— Renewals 
 
 10. Stable equipment 
 
 11. Transporation equipment 
 
 12. Other expenses , 
 
 13. Maintaining joint facilities— Dr.. . 
 
 14. Maintaining joint facilities— Cr.'... 
 
 Total., 
 
 Traffic expenses: 
 
 15. Superintendence 
 
 16. Outside agencies 
 
 17. Advertising 
 
 18. Traffic associations 
 
 19. Stationery and printing. 
 
 20. Other expenses 
 
 Total.. 
 
 Transportation expenses: 
 
 21. Superintendence 
 
 22. Office employees 
 
 23. Commissions 
 
 24. Wagon employees 
 
 25. Office supplies and expenses. . 
 
 26. Rent of local offices 
 
 27. Stable employees 
 
 28. Stable supplies and expenses. 
 
 29. Train employees 
 
 30. Train supplies and expenses. - 
 
 31. Transfer employees 
 
 32. Transfer expenses 
 
 33. Stationery and printing 
 
 34. Loss and damage, freight 
 
 35. Loss and damage, money 
 
 36. Damage to property 
 
 37. Injuries to persons 
 
 38. Other expenses 
 
 39. Operating joint facilities— Dr. 
 
 40. Operating joint facilities— Cr.. 
 
 Total.. 
 
 General expenses : 
 
 41. Salaries and expenses of general officers 
 
 42. Salaries and expenses of clerks and attendants.. 
 
 43. General office supplies and expenses 
 
 44. Law expenses 
 
 45. Insurance 
 
 46. Pensions 
 
 47. Stationery and printing 
 
 48. Other expenses 
 
 49. General administration joint facilities — Dr 
 
 50. General administration joint facilities — Cr 
 
 Total.. 
 
 Total operating expense and savings. 
 
 Add profits 
 
 Add taxes 
 
 L«ss interest on bonds 
 
 Netsavings and profits.. 
 
 Operating 
 totals. 
 
 $56,273,055.29 
 
 62,008.29 
 125,994.14 
 281,869.14 
 
 20,232.47 
 
 16,040.00 
 525, 121. 27 
 682,038.82 
 149,923.08 
 198,710.13 
 150,277.19 
 2,909.49 
 39,556.42 
 55,029.06 
 
 2, 199, 651. 38 
 
 320,927.68 
 177, 101. 45 
 20, 517. 55 
 41,924.19 
 96,642.48 
 562. 79 
 
 657, 676. 14 
 
 2,331, 
 13, 574, 
 6,621, 
 7,556, 
 1, 418, 
 2, 181, 
 1,078. 
 4,649. 
 4,665, 
 
 134. 
 2,132! 
 
 119. 
 
 1,157, 
 
 1,321, 
 
 51. 
 
 11, 
 
 107, 
 
 11, 
 
 1,285, 
 
 1,136, 
 
 191.44 
 264. 80 
 952.63 
 475. 69 
 490. 74 
 523. 08 
 689.34 
 615.32 
 864.70 
 149.26 
 781.46 
 066. 15 
 599. 54 
 258. 05 
 297. 88 
 077.90 
 041.01 
 241.20 
 
 593. 32 
 
 142. 33 
 
 49,273,031.18 
 
 860, 
 
 2,417, 
 
 169, 
 
 240, 
 
 148, 
 
 123 
 
 105, 
 
 76 
 
 0, 
 
 
 
 029. 70 
 486. 16 
 098. 01 
 739. 62 
 963.02 
 610.37 
 834.52 
 747. 20 
 695. 75 
 507.76 
 
 4,142,696.59 
 
 50,273,055.29 
 
 Predicated 
 savings. 
 
 (') 
 
 S40.000.0U. 
 100,000.0u> 
 181,000.00) 
 
 350, 000. 0» 
 454, 000. 0& 
 100, 000. 00' 
 132, 000. 00> 
 100,000.00. 
 
 1,457,000.00 
 
 320,927.68 
 
 177, 101. 45 
 
 16,000.00 
 
 41,924.19 
 
 96, 642. 48 
 
 652, 595. 80 
 
 1,166,090.00 
 4,527,088.00 
 3,307,317.00 
 1,389,119.00 
 
 709, 245. 00 
 1,090,761.00 
 
 539,344.00 
 2,324,804.00 
 2,332,932.00 
 
 213,278.00 
 
 11,906.00 
 
 385,866.00 
 
 17,996,750.00 
 
 573,352.00 
 
 1,812,363.00 
 
 126,747.00 
 
 120,369.00 
 
 70,000.00- 
 
 79,302.00> 
 
 2,782,133.00 
 
 22,988,477.00 
 
 11,387,489.00 
 
 906,519.00 
 
 35,282,485.00 
 1,000,000.00 
 
 34,282,485.00 
 
 1 Tiie report by the Interstate Commerce Commission does not include this column. 
 
382 PAUCBb POST. 
 
 Appendix G. 
 
 OPERATING OONTEACTS AND PRACTICES. 
 [Report Interstate Commerce Commission.] 
 
 The contract between an express company and a railway company usually pro- 
 vides that the express company shall have the exclusive right to operate upon lines 
 named in the contract for a definite term of years; that all matter carried upon passen- 
 ger trains except personal baggage, corpses, milk cans, dogs, and certain other com- 
 modities shall be turned over Dy the railway company to the express company (the 
 contract in one case going so far as to state that all packages or freight carried upon 
 any train at passenger-train speed are to be considered express matter and turned 
 over by the railway company to the express company); that the railway company 
 shall transport to and from all points on its lines all express matter in charge of the 
 express company; that special or exclusive express trains shall be provided by the 
 railway company when warranted by the volume of express traffic; that the railway 
 company shall furnish the necessary cars, keep them in good repair, furnish heat and 
 light, and carry the messengers of the express company; as well as the safes, packing 
 trunks, and all necessary equipment; and that horses, wagons, and supplies required by 
 the express company may either be transported in express cars or be snipped by freight. 
 
 The contract further provides that the officers and employees of the express com- 
 pany, when traveling upon the business of the company, shall be carried free by the 
 railway; that the railway company shall furnish such. room in all its depots, stations, 
 and buildings as may be necessary for the loading, unloading, transferring, and stor- 
 age of express matter, provided the furnishing of such facilities shall not interfere with 
 the business of the railway company; that the express company may employ during 
 the pleasure of the railway company any of the ageDts of the latter as the agents 01 
 the express company, and may employ the train baggagemen as its messengers, pro- 
 vided that such employment shall not interfere with the duties of the employees to 
 the railway company, but the express company alone is liable for the misconduct of 
 such agents in respect to its express business when so employed. The express com- 
 
 f>any, in respect to all matter carried free of charge for the railway company, is not 
 iable for any loss or damage occasioned by accidents to trains, or by fraud or theft, 
 or by casualties of any kind. The railway company further agrees to transmit free 
 of charge the messages of the express company over telegraph lines which the railway 
 company operates along its lines of road so far as it may be permitted to do so under 
 its contracts with telegraph companies. 
 
 The express company, on its part, agrees to pay a fixed per cent of its gross receipts 
 from handling express matter (with the larger railway companies generally a mini- 
 mum payment is guaranteed); to charge no rate at less than an agreed per cent of the 
 freight rates on the same commodity (usually 150 per cent); to handle, free of charge, 
 money; bonds, valuables, and ordinary express matter of the railway company; to 
 indemnify the railway company for any damages sustained in consequence of the. 
 death of or injury to any employee of the express company; to assume sole responsi- 
 bility for loss of or damage to the express matter in its custody other than the express 
 matter of the railway company carried free of charge; and to pay to the railway com- 
 pany an agreed proportion of the salaries or wages of such employees of the railway 
 company as render services to the express company. The railway company has the 
 right to examine the books, records, and accounts of the express company so far as 
 they relate to the business done under the contract, and may require reasonable safe- 
 guards and checks for the purpose of securing correctness in accounting to it for the 
 business done over its lines. 
 
 Under some of the contracts the express company agrees not to operate over a com- 
 peting line of road, and in one contract examined it was found that the railway com- 
 pany required that the express company "shall not fix its rates for transportation and 
 other services connected with the express business via the railroads of the railroad 
 company at any less than the rates fixed by other express carriers between the same 
 points, except that in case of disability or deficiency of routes via the railroads of the 
 railroad company by reason of greater distance, longer time in transit, " or other reasons 
 to the prejudice of the routes via the lines of the railway company, the express com- 
 pany has the right to make a sufficient reduction in the rate to retain a proper share 
 of the competitive traffic. 
 
 In small towns it is customary for the railway agent to act as the express agent also, 
 being paid by the express company an agreed percentage of the revenue from business 
 done. Generally speaking, the commission allowed such agents is 10 per cent on both 
 inbound and outbound business and a commission of one-third the charges on money- 
 order sales. The amounts paid by express companies are taken into consideration by 
 the railway companies in fixing the salaries of station agents, and the salaries paid by 
 the railway companies are adjusted accordingly. 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 
 383 
 
 On many roads the express messengers act as train Baggagemen, in which case 
 their salaries are divided between the companies concerned on an agreed basis. 
 
 The express company keeps the accounts between itself and the railway company 
 and settles with the railway company on the basis of the amount shown in its accounts. 
 The revenue earned on a given line of road when a shipment is carried over two or 
 more lines is arrived at by the use of a mileage proi-ate or of a rate prorate. Where 
 the rate prorate is used, the local rates per 100 pounds from point of origin to the junc- 
 tion point and from the junction point to destination are ascertained, and either line's 
 proportion of the revenue from a through shipment at a through rate is determined by 
 dividing the revenue in the ratio of the local rates. 
 
 The amount of revenue accruing on a given line having been determined by an 
 express company, the amount due the railway company is computed by applying 
 the percentage agreed upon in the contract. With some of the smaller railway com- 
 panies, electric lines, and steamboat lines there is still used the tonnage basis of con- 
 tract — that is, an agreed rate per 100 pounds — but, generally speaking, the percentage 
 basis is the one used. 
 
 The interest of the public in the percentage contract lies in the fact that an increase 
 in the compensation received by the express company carries with it a relative in- 
 crease to the other party. 
 
 Appendix H. 
 Statistics of revenue tonnage for the months of April, August, and December, 1909. 
 
 [Represents combined returns for the following express companies: Adams, 1 American, Canadian,Canadian 
 Northern, Globe, Great Northern, Long Island, National, Northern, Pacific, 2 Southern, United States, 
 Wells, Fargo & Co.,' and Western.] 
 
 [Report of Interstate Commerce Commission.] 
 
 
 
 
 
 Total or aver- 
 
 Ttems. 
 
 April. 
 
 August. 
 
 December. 
 
 age for three 
 months. 
 
 Pieces weighing 100 pounds or less: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 20,951,305 
 
 21,242,169 
 
 25,276,014 
 
 67,469,488 
 
 Aggregate weight pounds. . 
 
 512,288,348 
 
 640,699,767 
 
 572,203,515 
 
 1,725,191,630 
 
 Average weight per piece do — 
 
 24.46 
 
 30.16 
 
 22.64 
 
 25.57 
 
 
 9,481,154.44 
 
 8,406,155.54 
 
 12,119,435.84 
 
 30,006,745.82 
 
 Average revenue per piece, -cents.. 
 
 45.25 
 
 39.57 
 
 47.95 
 
 44.47 
 
 Average revenue per pound. .do — 
 
 1.85 
 
 1.31 
 
 2.12 
 
 1.74 
 
 Pieces weighing over 100 prfunds: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 981,663 
 
 1,182,768 
 
 1,342,220 
 
 3,506,651 
 
 Aggregate weight pounds. - 
 
 158 778,538 
 
 187,169,775 
 
 217,864,859 
 
 563,813,172 
 
 Average weight per piece do — 
 
 161. 74 
 
 158. 25 
 
 162.32 
 
 160. 78 
 
 
 1,522,922.38 
 
 1,606,251.89 
 
 2,120,904.34 
 
 5,250,078.61 
 
 Average revenue per piece, .cents. . 
 
 155. 14 
 
 135.80 
 
 158. 01 
 
 149.72 
 
 Average revenue per pound.. do — 
 
 .96 
 
 .86 
 
 .97 
 
 .93 
 
 Extraordinary shipments: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 14,625 
 14,147,711 
 
 10,719 
 13,886,691 
 
 11,812 
 12,302,988 
 
 37,156 
 
 
 40,337,390 
 
 Average weight per piece do — 
 
 907. 36 
 
 1,295.52 
 
 1,041.57 
 
 1,085.62 
 
 
 228,240.96 
 
 193,615.11 
 
 177,871.06 
 
 599,727.13 
 
 Average revenue per piece, .cents. . 
 
 1,560.62 
 
 1,806.28 
 
 1,505.85 
 
 1,614.08 
 
 Average revenue per pound.. do — 
 
 1.61 
 
 1.39 
 
 1.45 
 
 1.49 
 
 Total, all shipments: 
 
 21,947,593 
 
 22,435,656 
 
 26,630,046 
 
 71,013,295 
 
 
 685,214,597 
 
 841,756,233 
 
 802,371,362 
 
 2,329,342,192 
 
 Average weight per piece do — 
 
 31.22 
 
 37.52 
 
 30.13 
 
 32.80 
 
 
 11,232,317.78 
 
 10,206,022.54 
 
 14,418,211.24 
 
 35,856,551.56 
 
 Average revenue per piece . .cents . . 
 
 51.18 
 
 45.49 
 
 54.14 
 
 50.49 
 
 Average revenue per pound.. do — 
 
 1.64 
 
 1.21 
 
 1.80 
 
 1.54 
 
 Ratios of items to corresponding totals: 
 
 
 
 
 
 Number of pieces weighmg 100 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 95.46 
 
 94.68 
 
 94.92 
 
 95.01 
 
 Number of pieces weighmg over 
 
 
 
 
 
 Number of extraordinary ship- 
 
 4.47 
 
 5.27 
 
 5.04 
 
 4.94 
 
 
 
 
 
 Weight of pieces weighing 100 
 
 .07 
 
 .05 
 
 .04 
 
 .05 
 
 
 
 
 
 Weight of pieces weighmg over 100 
 
 74.76 
 
 76.11 
 
 71.32 
 
 74.06 
 
 
 
 
 
 Weight of extraordinary ship- 
 
 23.17 
 
 22.24 
 
 27.15 
 
 24.21 
 
 
 
 
 
 ments percent.. 
 
 2.07 
 
 1.65 
 
 1.53 
 
 1.73 
 
 Revenue on pieces weighing 100 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 84.41 
 
 82.36 
 
 84.06 
 
 83.69 
 
 Revenue on pieces weighing over 
 
 
 
 
 
 100 pounds per cent. . 
 
 13.56 
 
 15.74 
 
 14.71 
 
 14.64 
 
 Revenue on extraordinary ship- 
 
 
 
 
 
 ments per cent. . 
 
 2.03 
 
 1.90 
 
 1.23 
 
 1.67 
 
 1 April report excludes returned empty carriers. 
 
 2 April report excludes a portion of returned empty carriers. 
 
384 
 
 PAKCEL, POST. 
 
 There is slight need for textual comment on the information presented in the above 
 summary. Every item is significant for one who desires to gain an adequate concep- 
 tion of the scope and character of the express business. Though the aggregates would 
 vary for the several months and for the same month from year to year, the averages 
 and percentages may be accepted as fairly portraying the traffic conditions under which 
 express companies operate. It is significant to observe that 95.01 per cent of the num- 
 ber of pieces handled, 74.06 per cent of the weight, and 83.69 per cent of the accruing 
 revenue pertain to express matter of 100 pounds or less. It is further significant to 
 learn that of this class of traffic the average weight per piece is 25.57 pounds, and the 
 average revenue per pound is 1.74 cents. It is proposed to test the accuracy of these 
 averages from time to time by the selection of other months than those named, although 
 there is little likelihood that a compilation for all the months of the year would seriously 
 affect the averages here disclosed, or that future tests will modify them in any marked' 
 degree. These averages may be used with reasonable confidence aB long as express 
 companies operate under present traffic, tariff, and contractual conditions. 
 
 Appendix I. 
 
 Statement showing results of operation combined for the months of April, August, and 
 December, 1909, and an apportionment of operating costs between tonnage revenue and 
 other revenue. 
 
 MONTHLY REPORTS OP REVENUES AND EXPENSES. 
 
 [Represents combined returns for the following express companies: Adams, American, Globe, Great 
 Northern, National, Northern, Pacific, Southern, United States, Wells, Fargo & Co., and Western.] 
 
 [Interstate Commerce Commission.] 
 
 
 Amount. 
 
 Apportionment between— 
 
 
 Tonnage revenue. 
 
 
 
 ^Amount. 
 
 Aver- 
 age per 
 
 piece 
 (cents). 1 
 
 Aver- 
 age per 
 pound 
 (cents)." 
 
 Other revenue. 
 
 
 S37,380,307.64 
 17,765,999.69 
 
 S35,477,111.28 
 ' 16,861,710.31 
 
 50.64 
 24.07 
 
 1.56 
 .74 
 
 s $1,903,196.36 
 
 Express privileges— Dr. (47.53 per cent 
 
 s 904,289.36 
 
 
 
 Total operating revenues 
 
 Operating expenses (77.25 per cent of 
 
 19,614,307.95 
 
 15,151,337.42 
 
 239,864.48 
 
 '18,615,400.97 
 
 '14,380,134.35 
 
 '227,655.38 
 
 26.57 
 
 20.52 
 
 .33 
 
 .82 
 
 .63 
 
 . .01 
 
 5 998,906.98 
 » 771,203.07 
 
 Taxes (1.22 per cent of operating reve- 
 
 >12,209.10 
 
 
 
 Operating income (21.53 per cent 
 
 4,223,106.05 
 
 '4,007,611.24 
 
 5.72 
 
 .18 
 
 '215,494.81 
 
 
 - 
 
 The average weight per revenue piece was 32.52 pounds. 
 
 1 On basis of 70,063,750, the number of revenue pieces handled. 
 
 "- On basis of 2,278,147,170 pounds, the aggregate weight of revenue pieces handled. 
 
 s Represents "Revenue from operations other than transportation" and "Miscellaneous transporation 
 revenue" as defined in the Classification of Operating Revenues, and revenue from shipments of money, 
 valuables, etc., not properly includible in tonnage report returns. . ■ 
 
 ' Represents an arbitrary assignment on basis of ratio (94.91 per cent) of tonnage revenue to total receipt 
 from operation. . H 
 
 s Represents an arbitrary assignment on basis of ratio (5.09 per cent) of other revenue to total receipt 
 from operation. . 
 
 Note.— Differences between items in the foregoing summary and corresponding items in B ™™J 
 No. 3 are due to the fact that this statement presents combined returns from the 11 companies only irom 
 which complete reports both of revenues and expenses and of tonnage were received. 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 
 385 
 
 Appendix J. 
 Classification of mileage covered by operations on June 30, 1909. 
 
 Names of carriers. 
 
 Total 
 mileage. 
 
 Steam road 
 mileage. 
 
 Electric 
 
 line 
 mileage. 
 
 Steamboat 
 
 line 
 
 mileage. 
 
 Stage line 
 mileage. 
 
 Adams Express Co 
 
 American Express Co 
 
 Canadian Express Co 
 
 Canadian Northern Express Co 
 
 Globe Express Co 
 
 Great Northern Express Co 
 
 National Express Co 
 
 Northern Express Co 
 
 Pacific Express Co 
 
 Southern Express Co 
 
 United States Express Co 
 
 W ells, Fargo & Co 
 
 Western Express Co 
 
 Total..., 
 
 360. 
 224. 
 794. 
 129. 
 899. 
 412. 
 714 
 757. 
 672. 
 181. 
 206. 
 698. 
 456. 
 
 676. 
 668. 
 964. 
 107. 
 899. 
 031. 
 416. 
 488. 
 721. 
 936. 
 286. 
 316. 
 448. 
 
 196. 00 
 
 475. 70 
 
 66.00 
 
 22.00 
 
 3,405.00 
 
 2,058.50 
 
 737.00 
 
 83.00 
 22.50 
 27.00 
 
 169. 59 
 
 6.00 
 
 8.00 
 
 343.00 
 
 80.00 
 
 3,604.96 
 
 1,438.76 
 
 4.00 
 
 211. 00 
 292.00 
 261.00 
 608.34 
 
 2,165.00 
 314. 70 
 
 4,081.65 
 4.00 
 
 861. 12 
 
 260,507.04 
 
 238,961.22 
 
 6,414 01 
 
 14,138.19 
 
 993 62 
 
 Appendix K. 
 
 Cost of real property and equipment on June SO, 1908 and 1909. 
 
 [Interstate Commerce Commission.] 
 
 Account. 
 
 Total cost to June 30 — 
 
 1908 
 
 1909 
 
 
 }$14,562,641.07 
 6,403,125.77 
 
 
 
 
 III. Equipment: 
 
 1. Cars 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Total 
 
 20,965,766.84 
 
 22,313,575.53 
 
 
 
 Appendix L. 
 
 Statement showing inventory value of equipment owned on June SO, 1909. 
 
 [Interstate Commerce Commission.] 
 
 Total equipment, inventory value $9, 234, 071. 28 
 
 Cars: 
 
 Number 120 
 
 Inventory value $232, 115. 69 
 
 Office equipment: 
 
 4-wheel trucks — 
 
 Number 25, 485 
 
 Inventory value $505, 570. 02 
 
 Office furniture and fixtures — 
 
 Inventory value « $1, 135, 226. 45 
 
 Office safes — • 
 
 Number 11, 610 
 
 Inventory value $631, 662. 20 
 
 Horses and other draft animals: 
 
 Number 17, 332 
 
 Inventory value $2, 499, 780. 65 
 
 Vehicles: 
 
 Automobiles — 
 
 Number 256 
 
 Inventory value $378, 240. 00 
 
 Double wagons — 
 
 Number 3, 667 
 
 Inventory value $805, 571. 84 
 
386 PAKCBL POST. 
 
 Vehicles — Continued . 
 Single wagons — 
 
 Number 9,790 
 
 Inventory value f 1, 188, 635. 08 
 
 Sleighs — 
 
 Number 2, 878 
 
 Inventory value $81, 032. 16 
 
 Stable equipment (including harness): 
 
 Inventory value $443, 296. 67 
 
 Transportation equipment: 
 Car safes (stationary) — 
 
 Number 1,403 
 
 Inventory value $251, 756. 65 
 
 Number 13, 765 
 
 Inventory value $198, 108. 80 
 
 Messenger's packing trunks — 
 
 Number 23, 815 
 
 Inventory value $178, 017. 06 
 
 All other equipment: 
 
 Invf ntorv value $705, 058. 01 
 
 Appendix M. 
 Income account and profit and loss account statement for the year ending June 30,1909. 
 
 [Interstate Commerce Commission.] 
 Operating income: 
 
 Gross receipts from operation $132, 599, 190. 92 
 
 Express privileges— Dr ' 64, 032, 126. 69 
 
 Operating revenues $68, 567, 064. 23 
 
 Operating expenses 56, 273, 055. 29 
 
 Net operating revenues 12, 294, 008. 94 
 
 Taxes accrued 906, 519. 79 
 
 Operating income 11, 387, 489. 15 
 
 Other income: 
 
 Operations of subsidiary companies (net credit 
 balance) 98, 058. 05 
 
 Dividends declared on stocks owned and con- 
 trolled 1, 887, 952. 03 
 
 Interest accrued on funded debt owned or con- 
 trolled 1, 393, 189. 89 
 
 Interest on other securities, loans, and accounts. 1, 236, 957. 22 
 
 Miscellaneous income 616, 310. 54 
 
 Total other income 5, 232, 467. 73 
 
 Gross corporate income 16, 619, 956. 88 
 
 Deductions from gross corporate income: 
 
 Operations of subsidiary companies (net debit 
 
 balance) 7, 669. 64 
 
 Interest accrued on funded debt ! 921, 246. 94 
 
 Other interest 126, 034. 01 
 
 Other deductions _ 182, 452. 71 
 
 Total deductions • 1,237,403.30 
 
 Net corporate income 15, 382, 553. 58 
 
 Disposition of net corporate income: 
 
 Dividends declared from current income '4, 326, 939. 10 
 
 Additions and betterments charged to income 34, 919. 71 
 
 Miscellaneous appropriations 3, 000. 00 
 
 Balance for year carried forward to credit of profit and loss Hj 017, 694 77 
 
 Balance June 30, 1908 45,400,925.34 
 
 Additions for year 3,642,327.49 
 
 Deductions for year 7, 312, 628. 71 
 
 Dividends declared out of surplus 2, 223, OjjjjjH 
 
 Balance (credit profit and loss carried to balance sheet) 50, 525, 228. 95 
 
 ■ Includes 1100,000, advance payment on contract. ' Represents Interest paid. 
 
PABCEL POST. 
 
 387 
 
 Appendix N. 
 Analysis of operating revenues for the year ending June SO, 1909. 
 [Interstate Commerce Commission.] 
 
 I. Revenue from transportation: 
 
 1. Express revenue 1130,130,126.61 
 
 2. Miscellaneous transportation revenue 35, 475. 64 
 
 Total revenue from transportation 130, 165, 602. 25 
 
 II. Revenue from operations other than transportation: 
 
 3. Customhouse brokerage fees 4, 672. 73 
 
 4. Order and commission department 4, 672. 73 
 
 5. Rents of buildings and other property 57, 141. 04 
 
 6. Money orders — domestic 1 „,. ,.„ „ D 
 
 7. Money orders— foreign J b54 > 54a 78 
 
 8. Traveler's cheques — domestic 16, 473. 90 
 
 9. Traveler's cheques — foreign 46, 606. 46 
 
 10. "C. O. D." checks 908,094.29 
 
 11. Telegraphic transfers 14, 026. 93 
 
 12. Letters of credit 6, 961. 97 
 
 13. Other revenue — financial department 476, 298. 41 
 
 14. Miscellaneous revenue ". 130, 064. 37 
 
 Total revenue from operations other than transpor- 
 tation 2,433,588.67 
 
 Gross receipts from operation : 132, 599, 190. 92 
 
 Express privileges— Dr 1 64, 032, 126. 69 
 
 Total operating revenues 68, 567, 064. 23 
 
 Appendix O. 
 
 POSTAL EFFICIENCY TABLE, UNITED STATES. 
 
 Number pieces mail matter handled per post-office employee. 
 
 Years. 
 
 Employees. 
 
 Pieces handled. 
 
 1890 
 
 162,708 
 171,676 
 178,835 
 184,217 
 184,607 
 195,720 
 198,605 
 204,304 
 210,896 
 216,751 
 218,857 
 226,825 
 239.652 
 241,820 
 251,510 
 238,366 
 268,044 
 251,458 
 255,344 
 258,200 
 
 4,005,408,206 
 
 4,369,900,352 
 
 4,776,575,076 
 
 5,021,841,056 
 
 4,919,090,000 
 
 5,134,281,200 
 
 5,693,719,192 
 
 5,781,002,143 
 
 6,214,447,000 
 
 6,576,310,000 
 
 7,129,990.202 
 
 7,424,390,329 
 
 8,085,446,858 
 
 8,887,407,048 
 
 9,502,459,535 
 
 10,187,505,889 
 
 11,361,090,610 
 
 12,255,666,367 
 
 13,173,340,329 
 
 14,004,577,271 
 
 1891 
 
 1892 
 
 1893 
 
 1894 
 
 1895 
 
 1896" 
 
 1897 
 
 1898 
 
 1899 
 
 1900 
 
 1901 
 
 1902 
 
 1903 
 
 1904 
 
 1905 
 
 1906 
 
 1907 
 
 1908 
 
 1909 
 
 
 Average 
 
 per 
 employee. 
 
 24,611 
 25,459 
 26,708 
 27,262 
 26,646 
 26,235 
 28,550 
 28,296 
 29,466 
 30,340 
 32,569 
 32,734 
 33,734 
 36,752 
 35, 793 
 42,739 
 42,385 
 48,738 
 51,591 
 54,239 
 
 'Includes 1100,000 advance payment on contract. 
 
 ' The rlrst exc-erimsntal rural delivery service was established Oct. 1, 1896, simultaneously on three routes 
 from Charles Town, TJ villa, and Halltown, W. Va. 
 
 In 1900 there were reported 76,688 post offices and 1 276 rural carriers. In 1910 the post offices had been 
 reduced to 59,580 with 40 997 rural carriers. 
 
388 
 
 PABCELi POST. 
 
 Appendix P. 
 Pieces of mail matter handled per post-ojj 
 
 ENGLAND. 
 
 Years. 
 
 Personnel. 
 
 Pieces 
 handled. 
 
 Average 
 per em- 
 ployee. 
 
 1890 
 
 117,989 
 125,762 
 •131,459 
 1136,111 
 '138,738 
 '140,806 
 '144,700 
 '151,110 
 '159,942 
 ■167,086 
 '173,184 
 •179,202 
 '183,595 
 '188,031 
 •192,454 
 •195,432 
 •199,278 
 •203,597 
 '207,947 
 
 2,622,839,636 
 2,715,316,605 
 2,783,976,234 
 2,852,190,235 
 2,907,235,941 
 3,028,787,728 
 3,139,866,228 
 3,316,683,018 
 3,494,307,224 
 3,586,277,477 
 3,720,735,902 
 3,915,633,854 
 4,140,614,292 
 4,297,474,401 
 4,475,877,113 
 4,682,322,120 
 4,687,692,176 
 4,795,110,105 
 4,853,088,929 
 
 22,230 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1894 
 
 
 1895 
 
 28,775 
 
 
 
 
 1S9S ■- 
 
 
 1899 
 
 
 1900 
 
 23,646 
 
 1901 
 
 1902 
 
 
 1903 
 
 
 1904 
 
 
 1905 
 
 
 1906 
 
 
 1907 
 
 
 1908 
 
 31,117 
 
 
 FRANCE. 
 
 1890 
 
 • 62,200 
 •57,570 
 •57,828 
 '64,143 
 '67,092 
 '68,066 
 '68,366 
 '69,142 
 ' 70,269 
 '71,330 
 '74,929 
 '77,681 
 '81,659 
 '82,387 
 '83,735 
 •85,282 
 '93,759 
 '100,449 
 ' 102,374 
 
 1,613,648,262 
 1,656,594,153 
 1,690,065,382 
 1,747,105,412 
 1,755,492,308 
 1,822,203,228 
 1,926,840,499 
 2,065,375,716 
 2,172,677,054 
 2,092,460,752 
 2,152,873,380 
 2,023,995,229 
 2,158,295,671 
 2,238,081,437 
 2,409,533,445 
 2,685,082,091 
 2,877,243,955 
 2,862,265,894 
 2,936,209,275 
 
 
 1891 
 
 
 1892 
 
 
 1893 
 
 
 1894 
 
 
 1895 
 
 35,700 
 
 1896 
 
 1897 : 
 
 
 1898 
 
 
 1899 
 
 
 1900 
 
 38,309 
 
 1901 
 
 
 1902 
 
 
 1903 
 
 
 1904 
 
 
 1905 
 
 41,958 
 
 1906 
 
 
 1907 
 
 
 1908 
 
 38,241 
 
 
 
 GERMANY. 
 
 1890 
 
 '129,945 
 '148,594 
 
 • 155,424 
 ' 162, 779 
 '168,334 
 '175,759 
 ' 183,212 
 '190,919 
 ' 199,013 
 '208,441 
 •222,809 
 1 233, 176 
 •241,967 
 •251,042 
 1203,517 
 1 279, 598 
 «298,276 
 
 * 314,251 
 •326,703 
 
 1,684,740,690 
 1,785,690,900 
 1,889,500,218 
 1,986,791,353 
 2,095,098,346 
 2,101,349,063 
 2,329,228,275 
 2,489,069,635 
 2,639,115,653 
 2,880,389,112 
 3,434,357,576 
 3,699,187,757 
 3,965,627,748 
 4,242,157,259 
 4,439,285,948 
 4,647,055,089 
 5,014,587,587 
 5,448,330,959 
 5,641,324,858 
 
 17,287 
 
 1891 
 
 
 1892 
 
 
 1893 
 
 
 1894 
 
 
 1895 
 
 15,038 
 
 1896 
 
 
 1897 
 
 
 1890 
 
 
 1899 
 
 
 
 20,552 
 
 1901 
 
 
 1902 
 
 
 1903 
 
 
 1904 
 
 
 
 22,160 
 
 1906 
 
 
 1907 
 
 
 1908 
 
 25,9M 
 
 
 - 
 
 • The flj 
 number o: 
 
 gures for the personnel include telegraph employees. In all such cases one-fourth of the total 
 
 jf employees has been deducted from the total number in making the computation of thenumner 
 
 of pieces handled per employee per annum. ... A 
 
 * The figures for the personnel here include telegraph and telephone employees. In this case one-twra 
 
 of the total number of employees has been deducted from the total number in making the computation 
 
 of the number of pieces handled per employee per annum. 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 
 389 
 
 Appendix Q. 
 
 General Post Office, 
 
 London, April 3, 1911. 
 Sib: With reference to your letter of the 6th of March, asking for certain statistical 
 information relative to the postal system of the United Kingdom, I am directed by the 
 postmaster general to inform you that in this department the same officer frequently 
 performs postal, telegraph, and telephone duties, so that it is not possible to give the 
 numbers of the separate classes engaged on each of these branches of work. 
 
 The amount paid in salaries or wages is, however, apportioned, for purposes of 
 account, in accordance with the estimated time given to each branch, the figures for 
 the financial year ending the 31st of March, 1910, being as follows: 
 
 Postal £9,184,578 
 
 Telegraphs 2,611,198 
 
 Telephones 422, 867 
 
 These figures will, it is hoped, suffice for your purpose. 
 I am, sir, your obedient servant, 
 
 F. J. Brown 
 Mr. David J. Lewis. (For the Secretary). 
 
 Appendix R. 
 
 COST OF TRANSPORTING AND HANDLING MAIL MATTER, ETC. 
 
 Revenue, expense, and ■profit or loss per pound and per piece for the several classes of mail, 
 
 United States. 
 
 [Post Office Department.) 
 
 Classes of mail. 
 
 Revenue 
 
 per 
 pound. 
 
 Expense 
 
 per 
 pound. 
 
 Profit 
 
 per 
 
 pound. 
 
 Loss per 
 pound. 
 
 First 
 
 $0. 84001 
 .01143 
 . 12711 
 . 16867 
 
 80.49923 
 .09235 
 . 14317 
 . 12308 
 
 - . 11441 
 . 12113 
 .11246 
 
 $0.34078 
 
 
 
 $0. 08092 
 
 Third 
 
 
 .01600 
 
 Fourth 
 
 .04559 
 
 
 
 .11441 
 
 
 
 
 .12113 
 
 
 . 15879 
 
 .04033 
 
 
 
 
 Classes of mail. 
 
 Pieces 
 
 per 
 pound. 
 
 Revenue 
 
 per 
 
 piece. 
 
 Expense 
 
 per 
 
 piece. 
 
 Profit 
 
 per 
 piece. 
 
 Loss per 
 piece. 
 
 First 
 
 45.10 
 4.80 
 8.56 
 3.16 
 1.99 
 5.38 
 
 10.32 
 
 $0.01862 
 .00238 
 .01485 
 .05337 
 
 $0.01107 
 .01923 
 .01672 
 .03895 
 .05754 
 .02252 
 .01090 
 
 $0.00755 
 
 
 
 $0.01685 
 
 Third 
 
 
 .00187 
 
 Fourth : 
 
 .01442 
 
 
 
 .05754 
 
 
 
 
 . 02252 
 
 
 . 01538 
 
 .00448 
 
 
 
 
 Appendix S. 
 
 PARCELS-POST RATES IN THE DOMESTIC SERVICE IN THE COUNTRIES NAMED. 
 [By Postmaster General Meyer.] 
 
 Great Britain. — Postage rates for the first pound, 3 pence (6 cents), and for each 
 additional pound, 1 penny (2 cents); maximum weight, 11 pounds; greatest length, 
 3 feet 6 inches; greatest length and girth combined, 6 feet. 
 
 New Zealand and the States composing the Commonwealth for Australia. — Limits of 
 weight and size, same as in Great Britain. Postage rate, 6 pence (12 cents) for the 
 first pound, and 3 pence (6 cents) for each additional pound. 
 
 Germany. — Greatest weight, 50 kilograms (about 110 pounds); no limit of size. 
 Postage rates: For all parcels conveyed not more than 10 geographic miles, 25 pfennig 
 (6 cents), and 50 pfennig 1 13 cents) for greater distance; if a parcel weighs more than 
 
390 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
 5 kilograms (11 pounds average) it is charged for each additional kilogram (2 pounds) 
 carried 10 miles, 5 pfennig (1 cent); 20 miles, 10 pfennig (3 cents); 50 miles, 20 pfennig 
 (5 cents); 100 miles, 30 pfennig (8 cents); 150 miles, 40 pfennig (10 cents); and more 
 than 150 miles, 50 pfennig (13 cents). Unwieldy parcels are charged in addition 50 
 per cent of the above rates. 
 
 Austria.— Greatest weight, 50 kilograms (110 pounds); except that parcels contain, 
 ing gold or silver coin may weigh up to 65 kilograms (143 pounds). Postage rates: 
 Parcels up to 5 kilograms (11 pounds) in weight are charged 30 heller (6 cents) for the 
 first 10 miles and 60 heller (12 cents) for greater distances. A parcel weighing more 
 than 5 kilograms (11 pounds) is charged for each kilogram (2 pounds), in addition to the 
 above rates, for the first 10 miles, 6 heller (1 cent); 20 miles, 12 heller (2 cents); 50 
 miles, 24 heller (5 cents); 100 miles, 36 heller (7 cents); 150 miles, 48 heller (10 cents); 
 and more than 150 miles, 60 heller (12 cents). 
 
 France. — Greatest weight, 10 kilograms (about 22 pounds); no limit of Bize. Postage 
 rates: Up to 3 kilograms (7 pounds), 60 centimes (12 cents) delivered at the railway 
 station and 85 centimes (17, cents) delivered at a residence; from 3 to 5 kilograms 
 (7 to 11 pounds), 80 centimes (16 cents) at a station and 1 franc 5 centimes (21 cents) 
 at residence; from 5 to 10 kilograms (11 to 22 pounds), 1 franc 25 centimes (25 cents) 
 at a station and 1 franc 50 centimes (30 cents) at a residence. 
 
 Belgium. — Greatest weight, 60 kilograms (about 132 pounds); no limit of size, but 
 unwieldy parcels are charged 50 per cent in addition to the following rates for any 
 distance: Parcels up to 5 kilograms (11 pounds), 50 centimes (10 cents)— or if by 
 express trains, 80 centimes (16 cents); up to 10 kilograms (22 pounds), 60 centimes 
 (12 cents) — or if by express trains, 1 franc (20 cents); for each additional 10 kilograms 
 (22 pounds), 10 centimes (2 cents) — or if sent by express trains, 50 centimes (10 cents) 
 additional. Fee for delivering at residences, 30 centimes (6 cents). 
 
 Italy. — Greatest weight, 5 kilograms (11 pounds). For ordinary parcels, greatest 
 size in any direction, 60 centimeters (2 feet), except rolls, which may measure 1 meter 
 (40 inches — 3 feet 4 inches) in length by 20 centimeters (8 inches) in thickness. Post- 
 age rates for a parcel not exceeding 3 kilograms (7 pounds), 60 centimes (12 cents); 
 and 1 franc (20 cents) for a parcel exceeding that weight. A parcel which exceeds 60 
 centimeters (2 feet) in any direction, but does not exceed 1 J meters (5 feet), is admitted 
 to the mails as an "unwieldy" parcel, and is charged, in addition to the above rates, 
 30 centimes (6 cents) if it does not weigh more than 3 kilograms (7 pounds), and 50 
 centimes (10 cents) if it exceeds that weight. 
 
 The Netherlands. — Greatest weight, 5 kilograms (11 pounds); greatest size, 25 cubic 
 decimeters (1,525 cubic inches), or 1 meter (3 feet 4 inches), in any direction. Postage 
 rates: 15 (6) cents (Dutch) up to 1 kilogram (2 pounds); 20 (8) cents from 1 to 3 kilo- 
 grams (2 to 7 pounds); 25 cents (10) from 3 to 5 kilograms (7 to 11 pounds). 
 
 Chile. — Greatest weight, 5 kilograms (11 pounds); must not measure more than 60 
 centimes (2 feet) in any direction. Postage rates: 30 centavos (10 cents) if a parcel 
 does not weigh more than 3 kilograms (7 pounds); 50 centavos (17 cents) if it weighs 
 more. 
 
 Cuba. — Greatest weight, 11 pounds; greatest size, 3 feet 6 inches in length by 2 feet 
 
 6 inches in width. Postage rates: 10 centavos (10 cents) a pound up to 5 pounds, 
 and 6 centavos (6 cents) for each additional pound. 
 
 Appendix T. 
 Table of express and freight weights in different countries, with ratios, etc. 
 
 Countries. 
 
 Year. 
 
 Population. 
 
 Number 
 of express 
 
 pounds 
 per 
 
 capita. 
 
 Number 
 of freight 
 
 pounds 
 per 
 
 capita. 
 
 Ratio of. 
 express 
 weight 
 
 to 
 freight. 
 
 Argentina 
 
 Austria 
 
 1909 
 1908 
 1909 
 1908 
 1908 
 1908 
 1909 
 
 6,460,428 
 28,032,556 
 
 7,295,963 
 63,017,000 
 20,866,184 
 38,961,945 
 92,000,000 
 
 165.4 
 116.6 
 '199 
 140.4 
 
 67.8 
 140.6 
 
 99 
 
 10,680 
 
 11,260 
 1 16,320 
 
 15,980 
 5,540 
 7,480 
 
 16,300 
 
 1:64 
 ! 1:97 
 
 Belgium i 
 
 .U:82 
 
 Germany 
 
 1:113 
 
 Hungary 
 
 1:84 
 
 
 •,.il:53 
 
 United States 
 
 ,1:165 
 
 
 ^J 
 
 1 Includes 214 miles of privately owned railway. 
 
PARCEL POST. 391 
 
 Denmark, Norway, and Netherlands not included because complete freight and 
 express tonnage of State owned and private owned railways are not available, Eng- 
 land gives no express data, and the same is true of Australasia. 
 
 The express weights do not include the weights of the parcels carried by mail in 
 any case. 
 
 Appendix TJ. 
 
 THE PARCELS-POST SYSTEM OF GERMANY. 
 
 [Written for Dunn's Review of Feb. 24, 1906, by Hon. J. C. Monaghan, of the Department of Com. 
 meroe and Labor, Washington, D. C.J 
 
 Among the greatest needs of the present day is a better development of the means 
 of distribution. Much of the overproduction, of which so many complaints are heard, 
 is simply due to lack of distribution. Among the modern methods of distributing 
 merchandise the post holds a rank scarcely dreamed of in the days of the first American 
 Postmaster General, Benjamin Franklin. Even his genius hardly foresaw the day 
 when the packages of the merchant and tradesman would be carried by the postman. 
 The best example of a successful parcels-post system to enable a business man to form 
 a just idea of it is the German system, which the writer saw in operation for 12 years. 
 The gigantic genius that forged and welded the fragments of the Empire into one 
 cohesive mass — Bismarck — did as much as anyone to give the Empire a postal system 
 so successful that it excites envy and emulation. In a year 1903 it netted the Empire 
 nearly $15,000,000 over and above all expenditures, while the American service 
 showed a deficit of $4,356,000. 
 
 WELDING THE CITIES TO THE FARMS. 
 
 Not the least successful branch of the system — certainly not the least useful part — is 
 that which deals with parcels or packages of all kinds of products, from those of the 
 farm or ranch to those of the factory or department store. Prom the huge streams of 
 wares that flow through the post offices of Berlin, Hamburg, and the larger towns 
 and cities, as well aB the tiny rivulets of articles that are put into the parcels post in 
 remote Tyrolese hamlets and in thousands of country offices, iB formed a veritable 
 ocean or sea of traffic. The yellow wagons of the Empire or the royal wagons of King- 
 doms like Wurtemburg and Bavaria that have held on to their separate postal rights, 
 wind their way in and out of the highways and byways of the entire Empire, pick- 
 ing up and laying down wares. Anyone may participate in the benefits of the Ger- 
 man parcels-post system — that is, anyone who is willing to conform to its regulations 
 regarding fulminates, living creatures, the making out of cards, etc. A mother in the 
 south may make up a parcel or package of food, linen, and other articles and send it 
 to her boy in Berlin for a trifling sum. A traveler may pick up bits of bric-a-brac in 
 the hills and have them mailed to some central city for a few cents, or he may leave 
 his linen to be washed and have it forwarded to some place on his itinerary for no 
 more than he would expect to pay a porter to carry it to his hotel. Nor has the house- 
 wife any inconvenience; the yellow wagon with its royal eagles will call to pick up 
 the parcels as well as to deliver them, charging nothing for calling and only a trifle 
 for the collecting. 
 
 A SIMPLE MALL-EXPRESS SHIPPING SYSTEM. 
 
 A card about 4 by 6 inches has to accompany every package. In case of goods 
 going to one address, three packages, unless insured, registered, or sent c. o. d., may 
 be covered by one card. This indicates the disposition of the country to make the 
 postal service not only convenient, but as inexpensive as possible. When insured, 
 registered, or sent c. o. d. , each package must have its own card. Every card is divided 
 into two parts. On the extreme left is a strip for the address of the sender, the stamp 
 of the receiving office, and for the name of the party to whom the goods are sent. 
 This part is torn from the card and is retained at the receiving office and constitutes 
 an excellent reference record in caBe of loss or trouble. On the other part is put the 
 name of the person for whom the goods are intended, the stamp or stamps necessary 
 to send it, a space for the number of packages sent, the weight of the package as deter- 
 mined by the post-office scales, and a number corresponding with one marked upon 
 the package itself and given serially. On the back of the card are spaces for & short 
 message to the receiver, for a storage number to be used in case the package has to be 
 laid away till called for, or for instructions in regard to delivery; also space for the 
 signature of the receiver. Besides all this there are printed instructions as to how 
 the card is to be used and certain important points in the parcels-post regulations. 
 21845— vol 2—12 9 
 
392 PARCEL POST. 
 
 These cards cost the price of the stamp on them when stamped, or four for 1 cent 
 unstamped. Private parties may make and use their own cards provided they supply 
 themselves with exact imitations of those furnished by the government. 
 
 The package has to correspond in every particular of its address to the form used 
 on the card. It must indicate by the word "frei,". or "franco," corresponding to 
 our word free, that postage has been paid, or that it is "eingeschrieben," registered, 
 or "per Eilbote zu bestellen," to be delivered by special messenger, etc. In case 
 the package, as frequently happens, contains animals, living or dead, or any perishable 
 
 commodity, the card must contain instructions to "return to if not delivered," 
 
 or "if not delivered, sell," or "if not delivered, telegraph sender." And "the beauty 
 of it all," as a traveling American once put it, "is that the Imperial Government does 
 exactly as it is told or asked to do." The address must be written in full; must be 
 perfectly plain, both as to names and numbers. In case a consignment is insured, 
 that fact must be put upon the package as well as upon the card. Light objects of 
 little value, such as can stand pressure and which will not cause dirt or any kind of 
 inconvenience, may be put up in ordinary packing paper. All parcels above 6 
 pounds must be put up in several wrappings of heavy paper. Valuable parcels, 
 particularly those that are easily moistened, crushed, or injured by rubbing, must 
 be covered with oilcloth or pasteboard, or must be packed in boxes; in other words 
 care must be taken to so cover them as to secure a minimum of danger. Fluids shipped 
 in bottles or flasks must be carefully packed in cases or baskets. Living creatures 
 must be so packed as to protect the animal from discomfort, at least reasonably so, 
 and to make sure of no injury or danger of injury to the post-office officials or parties 
 whose duty it is to handle the packages. The wrapping, tying, sealing, etc., of the 
 packages must be such as to secure its contents from unwarranted examination. 
 Packages that are insured must be carefully sealed with sealing wax and legibly 
 stamped. If the parcel or package is one that is sent in a locked box case, or cask, 
 the sealing is not, as in the other cases, indispensable. Coin, paper, money, bonds, 
 and other valuable paper may be sent by the parcels post, but they are sent under 
 special regulations. . 
 
 IN THE MATTER OP URGENCY. 
 
 The only regulation in the system to which any exception can be taken is ttie one 
 that says the parcels must be forwarded by the accommodation trains, and not by 
 the limited or fast ones. This is doubtless due to the fact that delivery of so many 
 packages would inevitably and inordinately delay the fast trains. Exception, how- 
 ever, might have been made in favor of live animals, fresh fish, perishable fruits, 
 and flowers, for in all of these there is an immense traffic. Perhaps it is pertinent to 
 remark here that the payment of $0,338 will secure the shipment of such parcels on 
 fast trains and special delivery at point of destination. Shipments of an urgent 
 character, if marked as such, may not be registered or insured. They must, however,, 
 bear the word urgent ("dringlich") in large letters on a card of a particular color, 
 the address being clear and unmistakable. In ordinary towns parcels are delivered 
 twice a day; in large cities oftener. In case the card calls for a special delivery the 
 package is hurried to its destination by a special messenger. This service calls' for 
 10 cents extra if the delivery is inside city limits and 22 cents if it is beyond them. 
 In some cases notice only of the arrival of the package is given by special messenger, in 
 which case the charge is the same as for the special delivery of ordinary letters or 
 money orders — 5 cents inside the city, 15 cents outside. If the sender pays for the 
 special messenger he must indicate that he has done so by putting "Bote bezahlt" 
 ^messenger paid) on the parcel and accompanying card. In case no special delivery 
 is demanded or possible, the package is delivered in the ordinary way by the regular 
 parcels-post wagon. 
 
 A BUSINESSLIKE DELIVERY SYSTEM. 
 
 The delivery charge differs in degree, depending upon distance. For example, 
 parcels up to 11 pounds pay 2\ cents inside city limits; for rural delivery the chargeis 
 2J cents for packages under 5-J pounds and 5 cents for all others that are within the 
 weight permitted for parcels . Heavier parcels— that is, parcels of more than 5 pounds— 
 for city delivery pay 3J cents per parcel. In case the card covers three packages, the. 
 limit allowed to one card, there is a charge of 3£ cents for the heaviest and 1} cento 
 for each of the other two. When the goods have to be carried into the country (rural 
 delivery) the charge is 2$ cents for each parcel weighing less than 5$ pounds, and 5 
 cents for every other parcel permitted to go by parcels post. Careful, sensible, sys- 
 tematic, and businesslike are the only words that will properly describe this wonderful 
 system and its successful work. In the matter of city delivery fees much is left to 
 local authorities; the general-delivery fees, however, are determined by the central 
 
PARCEL POST. 393 
 
 p03tal authorities. A very large part of the postal parcels are carried to the post office 
 by boys and girls, private messengers, servants, and by the parties sending the wares. 
 As already indicated, the parcels-post wagon is always ready to call. It has its regu- 
 lar rounds each day, and may be called by a card addressed to the bureau or division 
 having charge of the wagons. Of course, such a card should be sent to reach head- 
 quarters before the wagons start on their daily trips. A parcel may be carried to a 
 wagon long after it has passed the locality in which the sender resides. It will be 
 taken by the condutcor of the wagon, for each wagon has a conductor and driver. 
 The charge for collection is the same as the charge for delivery, 2£ cents inside the 
 city limits and 3£ cents for collections in the country, or outside city limits, in the 
 go-called rural zones, for parcels weighing less than 5£ pounds, and 6J cents for heavier 
 parcels up to the limit allowed by law. In case the carrier can not deliver a parcel 
 the sender is notified and asked for instructions, a charge of 5 cents being made for 
 the notice. As already pointed out, if a sender has doubts about the acceptance or 
 ability of the carrier to deliver, he can make provision for its delivery or disposition 
 on the accompanying card. 
 
 CHARGES THAT MAKE BUSINESS GROW 
 
 The one vital factor in a system of this kind is the charge. If it is too high it defeats 
 the object at which it aims — public convenience. In all its efforts to secure efficiency 
 the German Empire has always aimed at a system such as would secure that result 
 at a moderate cost. Its success has been fairly phenomenal, for its charges have been 
 moderate, the service the very acme of efficiency. As already suggested, distance 
 and weight form the factors in the problem of price for the service. The distance 
 charges are determined by zones, the first zone or circle within which the lowest 
 price is paid being 10 geographical miles from the post office as a center; the second 
 zone all points beyond the 10-mile limit, but within 20 miles; the third, the points 
 between the 20 and a 50 mile circle; the fourth, between 50 and 100; the fifth, between 
 100 and 150; the sixth and last, all points in the Empire beyond a circle 150 miles 
 from the post office or center. For lighter parcels — those weighing less than 11 
 
 Eounds — only two zones are marked off, the 10-mile zone and those parts of the Empire 
 eyona the 10-mile boundary. For such parcels the charge is 6 cents for the inside 
 and 12 cents for the outside zones; for parcels weighing over 11 pounds an extra 
 charge is made upon every extra 2.2 pounds or kilogram. The packages are weighed 
 before admission, and are accepted up to 110 pounds each. In case the sender fails 
 to prepay the postal charges, a fine of 2\ cents is levied on parcels that do not weigh 
 more than 11 pounds; in case of heavier packages no fine is levied. The purpose 
 of this regulation is to effectively reduce the number of unpaid parcels under 11 
 pounds, for these make up the major part of the parcels posted. Light packages, 
 but of large size — say, cases containing bonnets, flowers, feathers, etc., or delicate, 
 easily destroyed commodities — come under a specific classification. They are classed 
 by cubic contents. As soon as a package exceeds 59 inches in any one dimension it is 
 put in this class; also parcels that measure 39.37 inches one way and 19.68 in another, 
 but weigh less than 22 pounds. In this class fall plants in baskets sent all over the 
 Empire by nurseries, hat and bonnet boxes, furniture, fancy baskets, boxes, Black 
 Forest or Tyrol clocks and carvings, cages, empty or containing animals, etc. Such 
 parcels pay 50 per cent more than the regular rates, insurance fees not included in 
 the estimate. Parcels of great value are usually insured , the charges being exceedingly 
 small — 2\ cents for all parcels under $142.80, with 1.19 cents additional for each 
 $71.40; in other words, a parcel worth $357 pays, when insured, for such insurance 
 5.95 cents, practically 6 cents; a parcel worth $1,428 is insured for 23.8 cents, etc. 
 
 CHEAP AND QUICK TRANSPORTATION MAKES FOR GENERAL PROSPERITY 
 
 How much the parcels post has meant in the past, how much it means now, and 
 how much it is to mean in the Empire's marvelous development will never be known 
 till some German Mulhall makes its work the subject of a brilliant special monograph. 
 From\he far-off shores of Heligoland and the North Sea fishing villages the products 
 of the deep are collected, carried across a large part of the Continent, and delivered, 
 the service extending to the confines of Bohemia or even to Austria and Hungary, 
 for there is a postal arrangement between the two Empires that admits all the benefits 
 of the one to the citizens of the other. From the seaport cities come the bananas, 
 oranges, lemons, pineapples, coconuts, the rich spices of the East, the finer fibers 
 and textiles of Persia, India, China, and Japan; from Switzerland come the rich 
 dairy products and marvelous honey gathered from its mountain flowers, a honey as 
 rich as that of Hymettus; from the Rhine lands the wines are sent in baskets far beyond 
 where the vine will grow; out of the south, by Botzen, on the hills near Innsbruck, 
 
394 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
 and along Lake Garda go fruits and flowers to Berlin and Breslau, Konigaberg, Dan- 
 zig, and Stettin. A message by wire, in case of a run on fruits or flowers, will be filled 
 in 24 or 48 hours — the entire order, including the telegram, costing from 25 cents to 
 $1, the latter price being exceptional, incurred only when the parcel exceeds 50 
 pounds. Under the 11-pound policy for 12 cents enormous shipments have been 
 made and are being made. This rate is the popular one. 
 
 Germany's advantages over the united states. 
 
 Business men, bankers, merchants, manufacturers, and the people are unanimous 
 in praise of the imperial parcels poBt. All regard it as indispensable. All wonder 
 how they ever got along without it. The rates from the empire to neighboring nations, 
 particularly to those with whom Germany has arranged postal treaties, are exceedingly 
 low. As already indicated, the rates to Austria are the same as those laid downby 
 law for Germany, and parcels for Egypt and through Switzerland and Italy pay only 
 52 cents for 11 pounds. Parcels for the United States cost 33 cents if 1 kilogram or 
 2.2 pounds; from 2.2 to 11 pounds, 33 to 88 cents, depending upon weight, distance, 
 delivery, etc. In all cases care must be taken first to find out the terms of the law. 
 This may be done by reading the rules and regulations. Certain requirements are 
 exacted m the case of goods going into a country that exacts tariff duties. In the case 
 of our own country, the law requires the making out of two declarations, covering the 
 cost, in addition to the card. In the matter of size, no package must be over41.24 
 inches or 105 centimeters long, and the circumference must not go beyond 70.87 
 inches (180 centimeters). The charge for packages ranging from 1 kilogram (2.2 
 pounds) to 4.4 pounds is 26 cents; for each 22.046 pounds or fraction thereof an addi- 
 tional charge of 13 cents is made. The rate for 220.46 pounds (100 kilograms) is 
 $1.31. As regards the imperial parcels-post system as a whole, Germany's method of 
 meeting the new economic, industrial, and commercial era upon which it has entered 
 is one that is sure to commend itself in time to the thoughtful statesman. 
 
 Appendix V. 
 
 Table showing the apportionment of expenditures for railroad transportation for 
 the fiscal year 1908 to each class of mail matter and to the registry service, 
 based upon the weight and average haul of the mail, equipment, and empty 
 equipment. 
 
 Item. 
 
 Weight of 
 mail trans- 
 ported. 
 
 Average 
 haul of 
 mail. 
 
 Pound-miles 
 for mail. 
 
 Weight of 
 equipment 
 transported. 
 
 Average 
 haul of 
 equip- 
 ment. 
 
 Found-miles 
 for equipment. 
 
 Classes of mail: 
 
 To Canada 
 
 Pounds. 1 
 118,126,958 
 772,159,614 
 6,747,857 
 
 Miles. 
 507 
 610 
 881 
 
 59,890,367,706 
 
 471,017,364,540 
 
 5,944,862,017 
 
 Pounds. ' 
 235,716,813 
 
 84,862,824 
 
 113,521,045 
 
 6,120,977 
 
 5,126,081 
 
 40,073,424 
 
 5,433,984 
 8,289,168 
 
 Miles. 
 401 
 
 401 
 401 
 401 
 
 401 
 
 401 
 
 401 
 5 507 
 
 94,522,442,013 
 
 Totalsecond class 
 
 778,907,471 
 168,266,074 
 56, 168, 710 
 
 4,459,942 
 
 38,524,672 
 2 8,512,789 
 
 476,962,226,557 
 113,074,801,728 
 38,587,903,770 
 
 3,344,956,500 
 
 30,126,293,504 
 
 24,568,802,000 
 
 34,029,992,424 
 
 Third class 
 
 Fourth class 
 
 Congressional free 
 
 (franked) 
 
 Departmental free 
 
 (penalty) 
 
 672 
 687 
 
 750 
 
 782 
 
 <620 
 
 45,521,939,045 
 2,454,511,777 
 
 2,055,558,481 
 
 16,069,443,024 
 
 
 30,011,883 
 3 39, 627, 100 
 
 2,179,J)27,584 
 4,202,608,176 
 
 Special service: 
 
 
 
 
 
 Total 
 
 1,204,080,927 
 
 
 746,555,351,765 
 
 499,114,316 
 
 
 201,035,522,524 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 Estimated upon the special weighing figures, after deducting the weight of local domestic mail matter 
 and foreign mail receiving no railroad transportation. 
 
 2 Amount of mail dispatched from stamped-envelope agency without equipment. 
 
 3 Less second class to Canada. 
 
 < Average haul of all classes of mail matter, paid and free. 
 6 Average haul of first-class matter. 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 
 395 
 
 Table, showing the apportionment of expenditures for railroad transportation for 
 the fiscal year 1908, etc. — Continued. 
 
 Items. 
 
 V.' eight of 
 empty 
 
 equipment 
 trans- 
 ported. 
 
 Average 
 haul of 
 empty 
 equip- 
 ment. 
 
 Pound-miles 
 for empty 
 equipment. 
 
 Total pound- 
 miles for mail, 
 equipment, and 
 empty equip- 
 ment. 
 
 Per cent 
 of each 
 item. 
 
 Expendi- 
 tures for 
 railroad 
 transporta- 
 tion appor- 
 tioned to 
 each class 
 and service 
 named. 
 
 Classes of mail: 
 
 Pownds. 
 33,240,361 
 11,974,440 
 16,013,846 
 862,652 
 
 718,877 
 
 5,648,321 
 1,697,073 
 
 1,169,857 
 
 Miles. 
 346 
 346 
 346 
 346 
 
 346 
 
 340 
 346 
 
 346 
 
 11,503,240,906 
 
 4,133,156,240 
 
 5,540,790,716 
 
 298,477,592 
 
 248,731,442 
 
 1,954,319,066 
 587,187,258 
 
 404,770,522 
 
 165,916,050,625 
 515,125,375,221 
 164,137,531,489 
 41,340,893,139 
 
 5,649,246,423 
 
 48,150,055,594 
 27,335,010,842 
 
 4,607,378,698 
 
 17.07 
 52.99 
 16.88 
 4.25 
 
 .58 
 
 4.95 
 2.81 
 
 .47 
 
 $7,556,463.47 
 
 Second class 
 
 Third class 
 
 Fourth class 
 
 Congressional free 
 
 (franked) 
 
 Departmental free 
 
 (penalty) 
 
 23,457,352.03 
 7,472,355.20 
 1,881,369.05 
 
 256,751.54 
 
 2,191,241.60 
 1,243,916.95 
 
 Special service: 
 
 208,057.29 
 
 
 
 Total 
 
 71,331,427 
 
 
 24,670,673,742 
 
 972,261,548,031 
 
 100. 00 
 
 44,267,507.13 
 
 
 
 
 The increase in the mail for 1910 over 1908 was 12.7 per cent in number of 
 pieces, which, assuming the haul, mail pieces, and equipment weight to corre- 
 spondingly increase, would equal — 
 
 1910. railway mail pound-miles 1, 095, 738, 764, 630 
 
 Or, railway mail on-miles 547, 869, 382 
 
 1910, number tons mail and equipment 1, 260, 000 
 
 1910, average journey mail and equipment miles.- 435 
 
 1910, total railway pay $49, 405, 311. 27 
 
 1910, total railway pay per ton-mile cents__ 9. 02 
 
 The railways are paid upon a sliding scale, by which the compensation per 
 mile of railway decreases as the daily weights increase, from 211 pounds up to 
 18,000 pounds, at which latter weight the compensation per mile becomes sta- 
 tionary, however much greater the daily weight. The following statement of 
 the postal department shows the amounts of railway payment for each 
 " weight " class : 
 
 Railroad mail routes in operation July 1, 1908 
 
 
 Number of routes. 
 
 
 Totals. 
 
 
 Classes. 
 
 First 
 section. 
 
 Second 
 section. 
 
 Third 
 section. 
 
 Fourth 
 section. 
 
 Number 
 of routes. 
 
 Annual 
 weights. 
 
 Annual 
 compensa- 
 tion. 
 
 ill pounds and under.. 
 !12 pounds to 519 
 
 284 
 
 203 
 
 246 
 
 71 
 
 77 
 14 
 
 188 
 120 
 106 
 
 27 
 
 49 
 2 
 
 235 
 
 167 
 
 231 
 
 86 
 
 128 
 19 
 
 319 
 
 201 
 
 258 
 
 88 
 
 111 
 4 
 
 1,026 
 
 691 
 
 841 
 
 272 
 
 365 
 39 
 
 49,665,468 
 
 87,363,834 
 
 314,788,182 
 
 320,768,622 
 
 1,929,454,278 
 1,946,293,572 
 
 8948,827.39 
 1,256,212.90 
 
 >20 pounds to 2,059 
 
 5,196,869.53 
 
 !,OB0 pounds to 5,079 
 
 4,594,702.63 
 
 i,080 pounds to 48,000 
 
 17,505,930.15 
 
 3ver 48,000 pounds 
 
 15,296,296.35 
 
 
 895 
 
 492 
 
 860 
 
 981 
 
 3,234 
 
 4,648,333,956 
 
 44,798,838.95 
 
396 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The gross weight of over 4,000,000,000 pounds represents a duplication of 
 tl'.e weighings of something over 80 per cent in the different sections, so that 
 the pound totals in the last table are only useful for their proportions in 
 classes. 
 
 The " over 48,000 pounds " class represents 41.9 per cent of the total weight 
 and 31.9 per cent of the railway compensation, to which latter must be added 
 
 the amount paid for post-office cars, which in 1910 was $ — . of 
 
 this amount, 54.12 per cent was paid to the " over 48,000 pounds " class. The 
 total railway payment for this class was, therefore — 
 
 Annual compensation $15, 296. 296. 35 
 
 Post-office car space 
 
 Total "over 48,000 pounds" class 2,503,502.64 
 
 17, 799, 798. 99 
 
 Weight, in tons _ 527,940 
 
 Ton-miles 229, 633, 900 
 
 Compensation per ton-mile cents 7.75 
 
 Any parcels-post method giving rates as low as are feasible would double or 
 treble the total weight of the mails and thus place practically all routes on the 
 minimum, or 7.75 cents per ton-mile, basis of payment. The equipment weight, 
 now about one-fourth of the weights paid for, would be inconsiderable for 
 parcels, as it consists of bags only, which bear a substantial ratio to the weight 
 of their mail contents. The " car space " requirements, too, of the parcels ought 
 to be much less than that of mail matter. Since the transportation loading 
 would be by zones embracing not less than 25 miles to ]00 miles and the 
 payments to the railways by miles, a considerable increment would fall to the 
 transportation fund from this source. On the whole, the assumption of S 
 cents a ton-mile for railway pay under a parcels-post method, with rates suffi- 
 ciently adapted to secure traffic, appears to be justified. 
 
 Incidentally it may be observed that the reduction of all postal railway to the 
 "over 48,000 pounds" basis would save the postal department 14.1 per cent 
 of its 1910 payment, or $6,951,612.59 out of the total railway pay of $49,302,217. 
 
 Appendix W. 
 
 AN AGRICULTURAL PARCEL POST. 
 [Nineteenth Century, vol. 53, p. 253.] 
 
 The object of the writer of this article is not so much to entertain the reader as to 
 attempt to show how the income of the United Kingdom may be immediately increased 
 by at least 60,000,000 sterling, distributed among a class of men who are admitted to 
 be the backbone of the community, but whose fate it seems to be to suffer from the 
 prosperity of their fellows. There is but one class which can be thus described— the 
 agricultural. There is but one remedy suggested for its misfortunes — an agricultural 
 parcel post. 
 
 Not that the post office can do all that is required. The official Hercules will cer- 
 tainly expect the depressed cultivator to put a shoulder to the wheel. The postmaster 
 general is nowise responsible for the enterprise of trans-Atlantic farmers or tie cutting 
 of trans- Atlantic freights. So long as the British farmer acts on the theory that his 
 land will produce only one thing, which he can not sell at a profit, nobody, not even 
 Hercules, can help him. For as against stupidity "the gods themselves contend in 
 vain." But if he will grow that which is highly profitable and which the post office 
 alone (without injury to its revenue) can bring to market, then it is clearly the duty 
 of the post office to place its machinery at his service. It is worth while to examine 
 with an impartial mind the facts and arguments for and against postal intervention. 
 
 WHAT WE ARE LOSING — IN ACRES. 
 
 There are in the United Kingdom 77,667,959 acres, of which 29,917,374 acres are 
 uncultivated. Of the uncultivated portion, 1,225,000 acres were cultivated 11 years 
 ago, when I brought the matter before Mr. Raikes; 806,872 have been laid down in 
 pasture, while 418,473 have become primeval deserts. 
 
PARCEL POST. .397 
 
 WHAT WE ARE LOSING — IN MEN. 
 
 While our fields have been thus abandoned to weeds those who tilled them have 
 emigrated to lands where their services are valuable. In the last 10 years 1,603,523 
 persons have left our shores, whole villages have been deserted as in time of plague, 
 and all we get in return for our country is the barren title ofiicina gentium. 
 
 NO LINK BETWEEN GROWER AND BUYER. 
 
 The sterilizing influence, the fatal objection, is the want of some means of getting 
 the produce in question quickly and cheaply to the market. A man farming 1,008 
 acres contracts with the dealers in town and delivers his produce daily from his own 
 van or cart at the nearest railway station. But the tens of thousands who occupy from 
 1 to 20 acres own no vans, and in order to secure lower rent they live far away from 
 the railways; and the situation of a farm is everything. We can not say of the modern 
 British farmer as Horace wrote of the Roman, "Beatus ille qui procul negotiis." 
 
 THE DRUGGIST CALLED IN. 
 
 When dealing with "perishables'' produce, as it is called, it is obvious that speed 
 of transmission from grower to consumer is the vital factor. No sooner has the apple 
 fallen or the egg been laid or the butter been made than predatory bacteria begin to 
 pollute it and destroy its pristine and peculiar savor. A certain Scottish angler, an 
 epicure, has a fire kindled on the bank of the Tweed and into a pot boiling on that fire 
 the first salmon he kills is thrown. Another salmon, caught within the hour and cooked 
 in London 24 hours later, would have a different and inferior flavor, because the oil 
 in the flesh would be slightly rancid. Thompson, the poet, ate peaches growing on 
 the tree, just as writers of prose, if bold enough, the oyster alive. Dr. Johnson, who, 
 doubtless, in those days of bad roads and slow wagons, spoke feelingly, declared that 
 no man was "satisfied with a moderately fresh egg." If we except Chinamen, this 
 is true; but very few inhabitants of our towns can secure "new-laid" eggs. As to 
 butter, cheese, and milk, it is notorious that our foreign friends thoughtfully save our 
 noses from being offended by a liberal use of chemical preservatives, with which 
 the British stomach is supposed to deal. One dares not calculate how many kegs of 
 Belgian borax and French acid the British middle-class baby must assimilate at the 
 most critical period of its existence. 
 
 A DETAILED PLAN. 
 
 It remains to suggest a workable plan for the desired operation of the post office. 
 And here it becomes an outsider who is not an official and who knows nothing experi- 
 mentally of la petite culture to observe all due modesty. The aim in this article is 
 to promote discussion of the subject, and it will, of course be a subject of congratu- 
 lation to the writer if a far better system than his can be brought forward. 
 
 THE PRIME NEED. 
 
 In the first place, the post office should undertake the work of collection. In every 
 rural district mapped out there should be local depots, say a mile apart, along the 
 roads to which parcels of produce would be brought by a certain hour from the neighbor- 
 ing farms and cottages. A postal van hired in the locality would collect from these 
 depots and the village post offices and convey the parcels to the nearest railway station. 
 The trifling expense of maintaining such a depot might fairly be undertaken by the 
 farmers benefited. 
 
 Motor cars should be employed if possible. Let us suppose that a district is 10 
 miles from a post office and is inhabited by a hundred cottagers raising then (as all 
 would) produce. Clearly the rural postman who now accepts parcels would (even if 
 trained by Sandow) be unequal to the task. But the postal van or motor car would 
 convey everything to the station in time for the appointed train to the town of destina- 
 tion. On reaching that town the parcels would be delivered (if so addressed) to the 
 
398 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
 depot to be established there or (if so addressed) to individual purchasers. In this 
 way eggs, milk, butter, poultry, fruit, and flowers might be placed on our tables within 
 four or five hours of the leaving of the farm of origin. 
 
 And now with respect to rates. The writer would recommend 1 penny per pound 
 for the cash-on-deliver parcels, with a minimum of 2 pence for anything not over 2 
 pounds, and one-half penny per pound with a penny minimum for parcels consigned 
 to depots where the postal work is simply collection. These charges should be paid 
 in adhesive stamps. 
 
 The maximum weight should be raised to one hundredweight (as in Germany), to 
 be ultimately higher still. And here one should entreat the post office to have as few 
 charges as possible and to give the "zone" system, so successful on the Continent, at 
 least a fair trial. Unfortunately, the post office, as we know, has to pay 50 per cent of 
 the postage on railway-borne parcels to the companies. That bargain, however, 
 eomes to an end next year, and meanwhile the post office would pocket all the postage 
 on the parcels sent to the nearest depot by its motor-car service. 
 
 J. Hennikbr Heaton, M. P. 
 
 Appendix X. 
 Express rates by passenger train in England. 
 [Consular report.] 
 
 Weight. 
 
 Up to 30 miles. 
 
 30 miles to 50 
 miles. 
 
 50 miles to 100 
 miles. 
 
 Over 100 miles. 
 
 Pounds. 
 
 2 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 8 
 
 6 
 
 7 
 
 8 
 
 9 
 
 10 
 
 11 
 
 12 
 
 13 
 
 14 
 
 15 
 
 16 
 
 17 
 
 18 
 
 19 
 
 20 
 
 21 
 
 22.' 
 
 23 
 
 24 
 
 25 
 
 26 
 
 27 
 
 28 
 
 29 
 
 30 
 
 31 
 
 32 
 
 33 
 
 34 
 
 35 
 
 Cents. 
 
 0. 0811 
 .1013 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1419 
 .1419 
 .1419 
 .1419 
 .1622 
 .1622 
 .1622 
 .1622 
 .1824 
 .1824 
 .1824 
 
 s. i. 
 4 
 5 
 6 
 6 
 6 
 8 
 8 
 8 
 8 
 8 
 8 
 9 
 9 
 9 
 10 
 10 
 10 
 11 
 11 
 11 
 
 Cents. 
 
 0. 0811 
 .1013 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1216 
 .1622 
 .1622 
 .1622 
 .1622 
 .1622 
 .1622 
 .1824 
 .1824 
 .1824 
 .2027 
 .2027 
 .2027 
 .2230 
 .2230 
 .2230 
 .2433 
 .2433 
 .2433 
 .2035 
 .2035 
 .2838 
 .2838 
 .3040 
 .3040 
 .3244 
 .3244 
 .3446 
 .3446 
 .3649 
 
 s. d. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 8 
 9 
 10 
 11 
 
 1 
 1 
 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 
 1 10 
 
 1 11 
 
 2 
 2 
 
 Cents. 
 
 0.0811 
 .1013 
 .1216 
 .1419 
 .1622 
 .1824 
 .2027 
 .2230 
 .2433 
 .2433 
 .2433 
 .2635 
 .2635 
 .2838 
 
 .3040, 
 .3244 
 .3244 
 .3446 
 .•3446 
 .3649 
 .3649 
 .3852 
 .4055 
 .4257 
 .4257 
 .4460 
 .4663 
 
 .5068 
 .5270 
 .5473 
 
 s.d. 
 4 
 5 
 6 
 
 7 
 8 
 9 
 10 
 11 
 
 1 
 1 
 
 1 1 
 1 2 
 1 3 
 1 4 
 1 5 
 1 6 
 1 7 
 1 8 
 1 9 
 1 10 
 
 1 11 
 
 2 
 2 
 
 2 10 
 2 11 
 
 Cents. 
 0.0811 
 .1013 
 216 
 .419 
 
 3244 
 3446 
 
 4065 
 4257 
 
 5270 
 5473 
 5676 
 5879 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 
 399 
 
 Farm and dairy produce by passenger train, Great Western Railviay, England. 
 
 [Consular report.] 
 
 Weight. 
 
 Up to 30 
 miles. 
 
 10 pounds 
 
 24 pounds 
 
 Above 24 pounds ' 
 
 Cents. 
 
 12.16 
 
 12.16 
 
 .25 
 
 31 to 50 
 miles. 
 
 Cents. 
 12.16 
 12.16 
 
 51 to 100 
 miles. 
 
 Cents. 
 
 12.16 
 
 18.24 
 
 .75 
 
 100 to 200 
 miles. 
 
 s. d. 
 
 8 
 
 1 
 
 Cents. 
 
 16.22 
 
 24.33 
 
 1 
 
 Over 200 
 miles. 
 
 s. d. 
 
 
 
 1 3 
 
 Cents. 
 
 18.24 
 
 30.40 
 
 1.25 
 
 1 Minimum charge, 12+ ceDts. 
 
 The above are special rates of the Great Western Railway for consignments of butter, 
 cream, fish, eggs, game, poultry, vegetables, flowers, etc., and include collection 
 and delivery. 
 
 Appendix Y. 
 
 Post Office Department, 
 Office of the Postmaster General, 
 
 Washington, D. C, May 2?>, 1911. 
 Hon. D. J. Lewis, House of Representatives. 
 
 My Dear Sir: In compliance with your request of the 20th instant for information 
 with reference to City and Rural Delivery Services, I beg to advise you as follows: 
 
 At the present time there are 1,528 post offices having city delivery. The letter 
 carriers in these offices serve a population of approximately 43,000,000. 
 
 The law requires that before city delivery can be established at an office the gross 
 postal receipts must amount to $10,000 or more, or the population, according to the 
 fast Federalor State census, must be 10,000 or more. If either of these requirements 
 is met, city delivery may, in the discretion of the Postmaster General, be authorized. 
 No rule prescribing a minimum population has been made, but at the average office, 
 where the receipts are sufficient to permit the establishment of the service, the pop- 
 ulation is usually between 3,000 and 4,000, and the employment of two or more car- 
 riers is generally necessary. Even where the requirement is met as to receipts, 
 however, the service would not ordinarily be established unless the full time of one 
 carrier could be utilized. As a precedent to the establishment of the City Delivery 
 Service the department also requires the streets to be named, houses numbered, 
 sidewalks laid, and adequate street lights provided. 
 
 On May 1, 1911, there were in operation from 17,295 post offices, 41,289 rural routes, 
 served by 41,190 rural carriers. Approximately 20,000,000 people are served by these 
 carriers. 
 
 Very truly, yours, Frank H. Hitchcock, 
 
 Postmaster General. 
 
 Appendix Z. 
 
 THE SOCIOLOGICAL VIEW. 
 
 [Ward, Dynamic Sociology, vol. 2, p. 578.] 
 
 As remarked in the introduction, the question whether any enterprise should be 
 undertaken by the state or left to private individuals is one which must he deter- 
 mined on the intrinsic merits of each individual case. The transfer of functions from 
 the latter to the former simply marks the expansion of the jurisdiction of the State, 
 a process which, when correctly viewed, has been going on steadily from the earliest 
 ages of political history. Nearly every present acknowledged function of government 
 has once been intrusted to private enterprise. It simply shows that little by little 
 society has risen to the consciousness of its needs, and has, one by one, assumed 
 control of the more important public interests. Whether it be its finances, its crimi- 
 nal jurisprudence, its customs regulation, its postal affairs, its telegraphs, or its rail- 
 roads, whatever it fairly perceives to need state administration, it proceeds to assume 
 and add to the functions of the government. 
 
400 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Now, of all the enterprises which the state has thus appropriated to itself there is 
 not one which it has not managed better and more wisely than it had been managed 
 before by private parties. MoBt of them are such that the world has entirely forgotten 
 that they were ever private enterprises. Others have become cherished public insti- 
 tutions, which no future revolutions can again remand to private direction. And 
 there are others which are still debating ground and on trial in some states. The 
 transportation question is one of these latter. Telegraph communication is another. 
 Education is a third. Other social operations still, not now looked upon except by 
 a few as belonging to this class, are destined to pass through the stages of agitation 
 and governmental assumption. These facts should not, however, lead to the conclu- 
 sion that government should immediately assume charge of all private enterprises 
 which concern the general public. There must be a gradual maturing of the con- 
 ditions, both on the side of the state and the individual, before this can successfully 
 be done. The question in each case must always be, Is the age ripe for this change? 
 As society is constituted, however, premature action of this nature can scarcely occur. 
 So strong is the force of established custom that it much more frequently happens 
 that the event is too long postponed and the state does not step in until the crying 
 evils of private mismanagement and individual incompetency have thoroughly aroused 
 it to the necessity. 
 
 The superiority of governmental administration over private management in large 
 enterprises of a general private character has been clearly seen and frequently pointed 
 out, but the progress of popular opinion on such questions has been powerfully coun- 
 teracted by the special nature of the case. Private enterprise is ever jealous of 
 governmental encroachment upon its domain, and the more lucrative the enterprise 
 is — that is, the greater the need that it be conducted by society in the interest of its 
 members — the stronger will be the influence brought to bear against such a result. 
 This influence is exerted by the creation of a public sentiment against state inter- 
 ference. In this private enterprise always has matters almost entirely its own way. 
 The state has little interest in the subject. The people at large rarely attribute 
 their burdens to the proper source. Things must reach the point of unendurableness 
 before the public will appeal to the state for assistance. Meanwhile a constant 
 stream of opposition to all forms of state interference, more or less ingeniously sup- 
 ported by plausible argument, is being poured out by interested parties. The result 
 is, according to the principle already laid down, that current views which are unop- 
 posed will be generally accepted (supra, 422, 433) that the state must overcome an 
 immense mass of prejudice before it can act in any case. It is fashionable to declaim 
 against the so-called "bureaucracy" of modern times, but this is only a part of the 
 attempt of sagacious capitalists to manufacture public sentiment to counteract the 
 steady current of rational conviction toward the conclusion that society must arouse 
 to its own interest*! and take the welfare of its members more directly into its own 
 hands. 
 
 Appendix AA. 
 
 A BRIEF SUMMARY OP THE BILLS INTRODUCED IN THE HOUSE RELATING TO PARCELS POST. 
 
 H. R. 2956. Gives post-office monopoly of matter admissible to the mails. 
 
 H. R. 5596. Rural-route parcels, 11-pound limit. 
 
 H. R. 2986. Parcels post, 11-pound limit, rates graded from 12 to 3 cents a pound. 
 
 H. R. 6311. Parcels post, 12-pound limit, 8 cents a pound. 
 
 H. R. 7603. Experimental rural route, 11-pound limit. 
 
 H. R. 8386. Parcels post, 11-pound limit, 12 cents a pound, 5 cents a pound on 
 50-mile haul. 
 
 H. R. 4444. Experimental parcels post, packages originating on rural routes; $20,000 
 appropriation. 
 
 H. R. 4027. Rural route for parcels, 25-pound limit, 2 cents first pound and 1 cen 
 added pound. And general post for farm products to 25-pound limit, 2 cents tat 
 pound and 1 cent each additional pound. 
 
 H. R. 1341. Experimental rural route, confined to four counties. 
 
 H. R. 16. Urban delivery in towns of not less than 1,000 population. , 
 
 H. R. 14. Parcels post, limit 11 pounds, 8 cents a pound; provisions for insurance 
 of packages; rural-route rates given. 
 
PARCEL, POST. 
 Appendix AB. 
 
 401 
 
 TaUe of actual freight rates per 100 pounds, in first and sixth classes, on nine 
 different routes, for distances to 1,156 miles. 
 
 Routings. 
 
 Dis- 
 tance 
 
 in 
 miles. 
 
 Classes. 
 
 Railway system. 
 
 Shipped from — 
 
 Shipped to— 
 
 First. 
 
 Sixth. 
 
 
 Taunton, Mass 
 
 Oscawanna, N. Y 
 
 New Galilee, Pa 
 
 Elgin, 111 
 
 36 
 36 
 36 
 36 
 36 
 36 
 30 
 36 
 30 
 
 Cents. 
 16 
 17 
 9.5 
 21.1 
 21.1 
 17.9 
 32 
 29 
 21.12 
 
 Cents. 
 
 7 
 
 6 
 
 6 
 
 8 
 
 8 
 
 7 
 
 16 
 14 
 
 9 
 
 (o) N. Y., N. H. & H. 
 
 (o) N. Y. C. & H. 
 
 (o) Pa. Co. 
 
 (i)C.,M. &St. P. 
 
 (i) 111. C. 
 
 (w) C, M. & St. P. 
 
 (s) L. & N. A. 
 
 (s). 
 
 (i) Big 4. 
 
 New York, N. Y 
 
 Pittsburgh, Pa 
 
 
 Do 
 
 Coleman, 111 
 
 Eggleston, Minn 
 
 Elizabethtown, Ky . . . 
 Oliver Springs, Tenn.. 
 Bunker Hill, 111 
 
 
 
 Knoxville, Term 
 
 St. Louis, Mo 
 
 6 B ' 
 
 
 20.5 
 
 9 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Middletown, R.I 
 
 New Hamburgh, N. Y. 
 Leetonia, Ohio 
 
 64 
 64 
 64 
 64 
 64 
 64 
 64 
 64 
 64 
 
 20 
 
 20 
 
 15.5 
 
 24.8 
 
 24.1 
 
 24.7 
 
 20 
 
 40 
 
 26.6 
 
 7 
 
 7 
 
 6.5 
 
 9.5 
 
 9 
 10 
 11 
 15 
 10 
 
 (o)N. Y.,N. H. & H. 
 (0) N Y. C & H 
 
 New York, N. Y 
 
 Pittsburgh, Pa 
 
 
 
 (i) C, M. & St. P. 
 
 (i) 111. C. 
 
 (w) C, M. & St. P. 
 
 (s). 
 
 (s). 
 
 (i) Big 4. 
 
 Do 
 
 
 St. Paul, Minn . , 
 
 Wabasha, Minn 
 
 Frankfort, Ky 
 
 
 
 
 Litchfield, 111 
 
 
 
 
 
 24.0 
 
 9.4 
 
 
 
 North Eastham, Mass. 
 Tivoli,N. Y 
 
 
 
 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 100 
 
 22 
 
 23 
 
 24.5 
 
 30.8 
 
 31.6 
 
 30.6 
 
 28 
 
 50 
 
 30.9 
 
 11 
 8 
 8 
 12 
 12 
 12 
 10 
 22 
 11 
 
 (o) N. Y., N. H. & H. 
 
 (o) N. Y. C. & H. 
 
 (o) Pa. Co. 
 
 (i) C, M. & St. P. 
 
 (i) 111. C. 
 
 (w)C, M. & St. P. 
 
 NewYork.N. Y 
 
 Pittsburgh, Pa 
 
 
 Chicago, 111 
 
 
 Do 
 
 Paxton, III 
 
 St. Paul, Minn 
 
 Minnesota City, Minn. 
 
 Lexington, Ky 
 
 Johnson City, Tenn . . . 
 Pana, 111 
 
 
 (s). 
 (s). 
 
 Knoxville, Term 
 
 
 (i)Big4. 
 
 
 
 jt Average charge, 100 miles 
 
 
 30.2 
 
 12 
 
 
 Waterbury , Conn 
 
 Albany, N. Y 
 
 
 
 
 144 
 144 
 144 
 144 
 144 
 144 
 144 
 144 
 144 
 
 29 
 
 26 
 
 26 
 
 35.3 
 
 36.1 
 
 37.5 
 
 55 
 
 69 
 
 35 
 
 14 
 
 9 
 
 8.5 
 13 
 14 
 15 
 30 
 31 
 13 
 
 (o) N. Y., N. H. & H. 
 
 New York, N. Y 
 
 (o) N. Y. C. & H. 
 
 Pittsburgh, Pa 
 
 Custaloga, Ohio 
 
 (o) Pa. Co. 
 
 Chicago, 111 
 
 (i)C.,M. &St. P. 
 (i) 111. C. 
 
 Do 
 
 Tuscola, 111 
 
 St. Paul, Minn 
 
 Montevideo, Minn 
 
 Portland, Tenn 
 
 Mountain City, Tenn. . 
 Charleston, 111 
 
 (w) C, M. & St. P. 
 
 Louisville, Ky 
 
 (s) L. & N. 
 
 
 (s). 
 
 
 (i) Big 4. 
 
 
 
 Average charge, 144 miles 
 
 
 38.8 
 
 16.3 
 
 
 New York, N. Y 
 Fonda, N. Y 
 
 
 
 
 196 
 196 
 196 
 196 
 196 
 196 
 196 
 196 
 196 
 
 32 
 
 30 
 
 32 
 
 50 
 
 39.1 
 
 57 
 
 38 
 
 78 
 
 32.5 
 
 15 
 10 
 
 9.5 
 16 
 15.5 
 23 
 15 
 34 
 
 9 
 
 (o) N. Y., N. H. & H. 
 
 New York, N. Y 
 
 (o) N. Y. C. & H. 
 (o) Pa. Co. 
 
 Pittsburgh, Pa 
 
 Crestline, Ohio 
 
 Kilbourn. Wis 
 
 Effingham, 111 
 
 Milbank, S. Dak 
 
 Nashville, Tenn 
 
 Jacksonville, Ala 
 
 Terre Haute, Ind 
 
 Chicago, 111 
 
 (w) C, M. & St. P. 
 
 Do 
 
 (i) 111. C. 
 
 St. Paul, Minn 
 
 (w)C.,M. &St. P. 
 
 Louisville, Ky 
 
 (s). 
 
 Knoxville, Tenn 
 
 (s). 
 
 St. Louis, Mo 
 
 (o) Big 4. 
 
 
 
 Average charge, 196 miles 
 
 
 43.1 
 
 16.3 
 
 
 Campbell Hall, N. Y.. 
 Rome, N. Y 
 
 
 
 
 256 
 256 
 256 
 256 
 256 
 256 
 256 
 256 
 256 
 
 35 
 
 34 
 
 38.5 
 
 50 
 
 42.3 
 
 70 
 
 69 
 
 76 
 
 38 
 
 15 
 12 
 11 
 17 
 16 
 28 
 25 
 30 
 10.5 
 
 (o) N. Y., N. H. & H. 
 
 New York N. Y 
 
 (o) N. Y. C. & H. 
 
 Pittsburgh, Pa 
 
 
 (o) Pa. Co. 
 
 Chicago, LI 
 
 
 (w) C, M. & St. P. 
 
 Do 
 
 
 (i) 111. C. 
 
 St. Paul, Minn 
 
 Bristol, S. Dak 
 
 (w) C, M. & St. P 
 
 Louisville, Ky 
 
 (s). 
 
 Knoxville, Tenn 
 
 Louisville, Ky 
 
 Indianapolis, Ind 
 
 (s). 
 
 St. Louis, Mo 
 
 (o) Big 4. 
 
 
 
 
 
 50 
 
 18.2 
 
 
 
 
 
 
402 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Table of actual freight rates per 100 pounds, in first and sixth classes, on nine 
 different routes, for distances ,to 1,156 miles — Continued. 
 
 Routings. 
 
 Shipped from- 
 
 Shipped to— 
 
 Dis- 
 tance 
 
 in 
 miles. 
 
 First. 
 
 Sixth. 
 
 Railway system. 
 
 Boston, Mass 
 
 New York, N. Y. 
 
 Pittsburg, Pa 
 
 Chicago, 111 
 
 Do 
 
 St. Paul, Minn... 
 Louisville, Ky. . . 
 Knoxville, Tenn. 
 St. Louis, Mo 
 
 Roscoe, N. Y 
 
 Lyons, N. Y 
 
 Fort Wayne, Ind 
 
 Minnesota City, Minn 
 
 Cobden, 111 
 
 Ipswich, Minn 
 
 Cleveland, Tenn 
 
 Augusta, Ga 
 
 Muncie, Ind 
 
 324 
 324 
 324 
 324 
 324 
 324 
 324 
 324 
 324 
 
 Average charge,324 miles . 
 
 Boston, Mass 
 
 New York, N.Y. 
 Pittsburgh, Pa... 
 
 Chicago, 111 
 
 Do 
 
 St. Paul, Minn... 
 Louisville, Ky... 
 Knoxville, Tenn. 
 St. Louis, Mo 
 
 Average charge, 400 miles 
 
 Boston, Mass 
 
 New York, N. Y. 
 Pittsburgh, Pa... 
 
 Chicago, 111 
 
 Do 
 
 St. Paul, Minn... 
 Louisville, Ky. . . 
 Knoxville, Tenn. 
 St. Louis, Mo 
 
 Average charge, 4S4 miles 
 
 Boston, Mass 
 
 New York, N. Y. 
 Pittsburgh, Pa . . . 
 
 Chicago, 111 
 
 Do 
 
 St. Paul, Minn... 
 
 Louisville, Ky 
 
 Knoxville, Tenn. 
 St. Louis, Mo 
 
 Average charge,576 miles 
 
 Boston, Mass 
 
 New York, N. Y. 
 Pittsburgh, Pa... 
 
 Chicago, 111 
 
 St. Paul. Minn... 
 Louisville, Ky . . . 
 Knoxville, Tenn . 
 St. Louis, Mo 
 
 Average charge,676 miles. 
 
 Boston, Mass 
 
 New York, N.Y. 
 Pittsburgh, Pa... 
 
 Chicago, 111 
 
 Do 
 
 St. Paul. Minn... 
 Louisville, Ky.. . 
 Knoxville, Tenn . 
 St. Louis, Mo 
 
 Average charge,784 miles 
 
 Boston, Mass 
 
 New York, N.Y. 
 Pittsburgh, Pa. . . 
 
 Norwich, Conn 
 
 Akron, N.Y 
 
 Hamlet, Ind 
 
 St. Paul, Minn 
 
 Paducah, Ky 
 
 Mobridge, S. Dak . . . 
 Holly Springs, Tenn. 
 
 Memphis, Tenn 
 
 Bellefontaine, Ohio. . 
 
 400 
 400 
 400 
 400 
 400 
 400 
 400 
 400 
 400 
 
 West Monroe, N. Y. 
 
 Westfield, N. Y 
 
 Chicago, 111 
 
 Liberty, Mo 
 
 484 
 484 
 484 
 484 
 
 Morristown, S. Dak . 
 
 Montgomery, Ala 
 
 Jesup, Ga 
 
 Shelby, Ohio 
 
 4S4 
 484 
 484 
 484 
 
 Depew, N. Y 
 
 Perry, Ohio 
 
 St. Louis, Mo 
 
 Lincoln, Nebr 
 
 Memphis, Tenn... 
 Griffin, N. Dak... 
 
 Macon, Ga 
 
 St. Louis, Mo 
 
 Painesville, Ohio.. 
 
 576 
 570 
 576 
 576 
 576 
 576 
 576 
 570 
 576 
 
 Brie, Pa 
 
 Sandusky, Ohio.. 
 Rock Island, 111.. 
 Holdredge, Nebr. 
 
 Terry, Mont 
 
 Mobile, Ala 
 
 Philadelphia. Pa. 
 Westfield, N. Y.. 
 
 676 
 671 ; 
 676 
 676 
 676 
 676 
 676 
 676 
 
 Toledo, Ohio 
 
 Edgarton, Ohio... 
 St. Paul, Minn.... 
 Culbertson, Nebr. 
 
 Jackson, Miss 
 
 Heritage, Mont 
 
 New Orleans, La.. 
 Rochester, N. Y.. 
 Bergen. N. Y 
 
 784 
 784 
 784 
 7S4 
 784 
 784 
 784 
 784 
 784 
 
 Sturgis,Mich.. 
 La Porte, Ind. 
 
 900 
 
 900 
 
 Cents. 
 38 
 35 
 41 
 50 
 45.9 
 83 
 96 
 73 
 41 
 
 56 
 
 3S 
 39 
 44.5 
 60 
 50 
 105 
 98 
 84 
 46 
 
 40 
 45 
 45 
 
 114 
 
 98 
 106 
 
 52.5 
 
 72.5 
 
 44 
 
 50 
 
 56 
 
 So 
 
 85 
 133 
 103 
 114 
 
 ■55.5 
 
 50 
 
 59 
 
 69 
 144 
 157 
 
 90 
 100 
 
 56.5 
 
 90.6 
 
 157 
 118 
 180 
 
 90 
 100 
 
 65.5 
 
 103.7 
 
 72 
 72 
 
 Cents. 
 15 
 13 
 12 
 18 
 18 
 35 
 41 
 31 
 12 
 
 21.7 
 
 15 
 13 
 14.5 
 20 
 
 20 
 45 
 39 
 32 
 15 
 
 23.7 
 
 15 
 15 
 15 
 
 27 
 
 47.5 
 41 
 48 
 16 
 
 28 
 
 15 
 17 
 18 
 
 135 
 31 
 
 i 55 
 43 
 44 
 17 
 
 30.5 
 
 17 
 20 
 23.5 
 ■62 
 
 179 
 35 
 40 
 18.5 
 
 20 
 2;', 
 29 
 
 ■07 
 49 
 
 190 
 35 
 40 
 22 
 
 41.7 
 
 24 
 24 
 
 (o)N.Y,N.H.AH. 
 (o) N. Y. C. & H. 
 (o) Pa. Co. 
 (w) C, M. & St. P. 
 (i) M. C. 
 
 (w) C, M. & St. P. 
 si. 
 (s). 
 (o)Big4. j 
 
 (o)N.Y.,N.H.4H. 
 Co N.Y. C. 4 H. 
 (o) Pa. Co. 
 (w) C, M. & St. P. 
 (s). 
 
 (w) C, M. & St. P. 
 (s). 
 s). 
 (o)Big4. 
 
 (o) N. Y., N. H. & H. 
 (o) N. Y. C. & H. 
 (o) Pa. Co. »■ 
 
 (w) C, M. & Bt.P. i, 
 
 (w) C, M. & St. P. 
 
 (s). 
 (s). 
 (o) Big 4. 
 
 (o) N. Y., N. H. 4 H. 
 
 (o) N. Y. C. & H. 
 
 (o) Pa. Co. 
 
 (w) C, B. & Q. 
 
 (s). 
 
 (w) C, M. & St. P. 
 
 (s). 
 
 (s). 
 
 (o) Big 4. 
 
 (o) N. Y. C. & H. 
 
 (o) N. Y. C. & H. 
 
 (o) P. & L. E. 
 
 (w)C, B. &Q. . 
 
 \w) C, M. & St. P. 
 
 (s). 
 
 (s). 
 
 (o) Big 4. 
 
 (o)N.Y. C. 4H. ;, 
 
 (o N. Y. C. & H. „ 
 (o) P. & L. E. 
 
 (w)C, B. &Q. a* 
 
 (sl- 
 Cw) C, M. & St. P ■ 
 
 («). 
 
 (o) Big 4. 
 
 fo)N.Y.,C.&|. 
 >o)N.Y.,C.&R 
 
PARCEL, POST. 
 
 403 
 
 Table of actual freight rates per 100 pounds, in first and sixth classes, on nine 
 different, routes, lor distances to 1,156 miles — Continued 
 
 Routings. 
 
 Shipped from- 
 
 Shipped to — 
 
 Dis- 
 tance 
 
 miles. 
 
 Classes. 
 
 First. 
 
 Sixth. 
 
 Railway system. 
 
 Chicago, 111 
 
 Do 
 
 St. Paul, Minn... 
 Louisville, Ky... 
 Knoxville, Tenn. 
 St. Louis, Mo 
 
 Average charge,900 rni ies . 
 
 Boston, Mass 
 
 New York, N.Y. 
 Pittsburgh, Pa... 
 
 Chicago, 111 
 
 Do 
 
 St. Paul, Minn... 
 Louisville, Ky... 
 Knoxville, Tenn. 
 St. Louis, Mo 
 
 Average charge, 
 miles. 
 
 Boston, Mass 
 
 New York, N.Y. 
 Pittsburgh, Pa... 
 
 Chicago, 111 
 
 Do 
 
 St. Paul. Minn... 
 Louisville, Ky... 
 Knoxville, Tenn. 
 St. Louis, Mo 
 
 1,024 
 
 Average charge, 
 miles. 
 
 1,156 
 
 Akron, Colo 
 
 New Orleans, La 
 
 Ryegate, Mont 
 
 North Adams, Mass. . 
 
 Utica, N. Y 
 
 Canastota, N. Y 
 
 Elkhart, Ind 
 
 Mattoon, 111 
 
 Tulsa, Okla 
 
 Denver, Colo 
 
 Pan Handle, Tex. 
 Lombard, Mont. . . 
 
 Boston, Mass 
 
 Portland, Me 
 
 Albany, N.Y 
 
 Geneva, 111 
 
 St. Louis, Mo 
 
 Oklahoma City, Okla 
 
 Pueblo, Colo 
 
 Bovina, Tex 
 
 Deer Lodge, Mont 
 
 Portland, Me 
 
 Montreal, Quebec 
 
 Springfield, Mass 
 
 900 
 900 
 900 
 900 
 900 
 900 
 
 Cents. 
 180 
 
 110 
 202 
 
 82 
 100 
 
 79.5 
 
 1,024 
 1,024 
 1,024 
 1,024 
 1,024 
 1,024 
 1,024 
 1,024 
 1,024 
 
 1,156 
 1,156 
 1,156 
 1,156 
 1,156 
 1,156 
 1,156 
 1,156 
 1,156 
 
 Cents. 
 167 
 41 
 >101 
 
 27 
 40 
 26 
 
 42.1 
 
 72 
 83 
 170 
 180 
 176 
 225 
 82 
 100 
 
 24 
 28 
 
 l 74 
 67 
 
 192 
 
 1113 
 
 27 
 
 40 
 
 28 
 
 129.7 
 
 54.7 
 
 78 
 
 88 
 180 
 180 
 189 
 225 
 
 82 
 116 
 
 94.5 
 
 26 
 
 29 
 
 182 
 
 167 
 
 199 
 
 1113 
 
 27 
 
 46 
 
 31 
 
 136.9 
 
 fw)C.,B.&Q. 
 
 (s). 
 
 (w)C.,M. &St. P. 
 
 (o) Big 4. 
 
 (s), 
 
 (o) Big 4. 
 
 (o) N. Y., C. & H. 
 
 (o)N. Y.,C. &H. 
 
 (w). 
 
 (w). 
 
 (w). 
 
 (w)C.,M. &St. P. 
 
 (o) Big 4. 
 
 (o) N. Y., C. & H. 
 (o) N. Y., C. & H. 
 (w). 
 
 (w). 
 
 M. 
 
 (w) C, M. & St. P. 
 
 (s). 
 
 (s). 
 
 (o) Big 4. 
 
 i Fifth-class rates. 
 
 l territory is indicated by initials preceding the name of the railway system used — "o" 
 for Official, "w" for Western, "i" for Illinois, and "s" for Southern. 
 
 The Classification t 
 
 Appendix AC. 
 
 Post Office Department, 
 Second Assistant Postmaster General, 
 
 Washington, December 12, 1911. 
 
 Hon. David J. Lewis, 
 
 House of Representatives. 
 My Deae Sib : In reply to your letter of the 9th instant, requesting further 
 information with reference to postal-car pay, I have to advise that the gross 
 pay of $44,798,838.95 does not include pay for car space. The amount paid for 
 car space during the year ended June 30, 1908, was $4,567,366.25. 
 
 Relative to your second inquiry, as to what ratio the car-space pay should 
 be assigned to the low-pay class — i. e., "over 48,000 pounds" — I have to in- 
 form you that I am unable to state what that ratio was for the year 1908, 
 but I have made a tabulation of the conditions existing on December 1, 1911, 
 and find that 54.12 per cent of the railway post office car pay in effect on that 
 date is for service on the routes carrying over 48,000 pounds, the amount being 
 $2,503,502.64 out of a total of $4,623,361.62. 
 I trust this will give you the information you desire. 
 Tours, very truly, 
 
 Joseph Stewart, 
 Second Assistant Postmaster General. 
 
 (Whereupon, at 5.10 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned to 
 meet at the call of the chairman.) 
 
FRIDAY, DECEMBER 1, 1911. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), and Senator 
 Nathan P. Bryan. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. JOHN A. GREEN, SECRETARY OF THE 
 NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF RETAIL GROCERS OF THE UNITED 
 STATES, CLEVELAND, OHIO. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Green, it will be necessary that you be sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Please state your age and occupation. 
 
 Mr. Green. Just 57 last Monday. My occupation is, at the present 
 time, secretary of the National Association of Retail Grocers of the 
 United States. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you occupied that position? 
 
 Mr. Green. Five years, being two years previously its president. 
 
 The Chairman. What other positions, if any, do you hold? 
 
 Mr. Green. Grocer only. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you are here to-day solely as a representa- 
 tive of the National Association of Retail Grocers of the United 
 States ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes, sir; and of course T am interested in the business 
 myself. 
 
 The Chairman. How many members are there in the National 
 Association? 
 
 Mr. Green. The National Association is represented by States, 
 each State paying the per capita of the individual members, and the 
 membership would amount to about 100,000 for the different States. 
 
 The Chairman. For the whole United States? 
 
 Mr. Green. For the whole United States. 
 
 The Chairman. Active members, that is? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes; active members. 
 
 The Chairman. You get that information by the fees paid by the 
 members ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Not particularly, but from reports from the different 
 State secretaries. I might say that we have a list of about 1,900 sec : 
 retaries — local secretaries — located in the different towns. We have 
 a printed list that I would furnish you. 
 
 The Chairman. No; I do not think that would be necessary. I 
 simply want to ascertain about how largely representative the organ- 
 ization is, Mr. Green. Now, would you kindly state for the benefit 
 of the committee your views relative to parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Green. We feel that the parcel-post legislation would inter- 
 fere seriously with the merchants. I am now speaking for the re- 
 tailers particularly — would interfere materially with the success of 
 the retailers to this extent: That if the Government will compete 
 with the local dealer for the trade by paying the postage or express 
 charges from the larger cities, the incentive to buy in a large city, 
 no matter whether it be a fact that goods can be bought cheaper or 
 
 not 
 
 404 
 
PARCEL POST. 405 
 
 The Chairman. You say, " if the Government will compete." I 
 do not exactly understand on what you base the supposition that the 
 Government intends to compete with the retail grocer ? 
 
 Mr. Green. The Government directly, no; but the fact that the 
 Government intends by this legislation to carry a package at a much 
 less rate than the cost would be for any considerable length 
 
 The Chairman. I do not know upon what you base any such sup- 
 position as that, that the Government intends to carry a package at 
 a loss. 
 
 Mr. Green. Any bill that I have seen would indicate to me that the 
 Government could not carry packages and pay its expenses at 25 
 cents for an 11-pound rate for any distance. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, where is there a 25-cent 11-pound rate be- 
 fore you ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Some of your bills call for a 25-cent 11-pound rate. 
 
 The Chairman. The object of our inquiry is to ascertain how we 
 can enlarge the scope of our present parcel post as embodied under 
 the fourth-class mail matter in the way of increased weight and de- 
 creased postage; the purpose is ascertainment. We wish to get in- 
 formation upon which to base our conclusions, and we would like 
 specific information from you. 
 
 Mr'. Green. You are not considering any bill? 
 
 The Chairman. No particular bill. It is information that we 
 are after. 
 
 Mr. Green. Our organization is opposed — I think that you know 
 that — to any parcel-post legislation. 
 
 The Chairman. How about the present law, are vou opposed to 
 that? 
 
 Mr. Green. I will change my statement to say that we are opposed 
 to any increased parcel-post legislation. Leave the legislation as 
 it is. We did not wish and do not wish to interfere with what is. 
 
 The Chairman. You are simply afraid of what may be ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Of what may be. I just wrote down two or three 
 things. In England, for instance, they are not satisfied — that is. 
 the business men there are not satisfied — with the parcel-post 
 arrangement. 
 
 The Chairman. Upon what do you base that statement ? 
 
 Mr. Green. I take here from the grocery paper, called Grocery. 
 edited by the grocers of Great Britain. I had the paper at the time. 
 five years ago. This is the clipping : 
 
 On Monday the 31st of October, 1904, a deputation representing the retail 
 trades of Great Britain appeared before the postmaster general. Sir John 
 Rollesston in introducing the deputation said the gentlemen he had the honor 
 to introduce to his lordship represented the whole of the retail trade of Great 
 Britain. This system of cash on delivery that had been proposed, they were 
 all of the opinion, would seriously affect the small retail dealers and remove 
 from them a large portion of the trade wliich they now conduct much to the 
 benefit of the public. 
 
 The Chairman. This is not pertinent to your statement. We 
 have not got the C O. D. under consideration. 
 
 Mr. Green. I will not read the balance of this, but I will ju>t 
 read the postmaster general's reply. The postmaster general in 
 reply said: 
 
 He was now asked to wait, and yet, when they (the trade people) had {be 
 opportunity, not a single word was said against the system. The time when 
 
406 PARCEL POST. 
 
 they should have protested was when the parcel post and postal order came 
 into force, fur tLe eash-on-delivery system was nothing but combination of the 
 two. 
 
 The Chairman. But I do not think the information you submitted 
 there bears out your statement that there was unanimous opposition 
 to the parcel post on the part of the Retail Grocers' Association of 
 England. They had under consideration only the C. O. D. feature of 
 the parcel-post system. Now, our information is that the parcel post- 
 in England gives most general satisfaction, and there is no opposition: 
 to it at all. There would be the bitterest kind of opposition to 
 diminishing the scope of the parcel post. 
 
 Mr. Green. Here is a letter I received from one of the business 
 men over there January 16, 1911. I would say also that I have spent 
 two summers in England, one in 1909 and the other in 1911. Mr. 
 Lumsey wrote to me and said : 
 
 We have in London Whiteleys supplying everything from butter to coffee. 
 They get in touch with you by some means and send their catalogue; you name 
 your wants and remit, the article coming by return post. Of course it knocks 
 the retail man, and it is curious, but the majority of the people think that if 
 they buy from some one in a large town, who they are not acquainted with, that 
 they get the article much cheaper. Many attempts have been made to inaugurate 
 a C. O. D. system here in our postal system, but the opposition from the trades- 
 men is too strong. It would be very detrimental to them and beneficial only to 
 large firms in London. It would certainly be ruinous to merchants in the 
 smaller towns, especially in the dry goods trade. 
 
 Now, here is another letter, dated March 7, 1911. 
 
 The Chairman. From whom? 
 
 Mr. Green. From W. J. Lumsey. 
 
 The Chairman. Representing what? 
 
 Mr. Green. A wholesale firm. I have not got the name of the 
 wholesale firm, but he was a representative of one of the American 
 firms. I can send you the name of the firm, however. 
 
 The Chairman. He simply gives his own individual views, which 
 do not give any concrete information. 
 
 Mr. Green. These are the views of the man with whom he is in 
 business or contact. Just let me read a few words : 
 
 Monopoly and its evils, yes ; and this evil would be greatly intensified had you 
 adopted the parcel-post bill. 
 
 That is what he said to me. 
 
 The Chairman. What has a gentleman in England to do with our 
 
 problems in the United States ? 
 
 Mr. Green. He is telling what they have there. i 
 
 The Chairman. He asserts that they have a monopoly in England? ■ 
 Mr. Green. In a great many things, yes. " This evil would be 
 
 greatly intensified had you adopted the parcel-post bill." Now, I 
 
 have kept in touch with this man along these lines, and he goes on 
 
 to say: 
 
 I question, as far as the retailers are concerned, that you have the huge 
 monopolies or multiple-shop firms we have in this country. The Maypole 
 Dairy Co., with its nearly 400 shops, issued their balance sheet a little while 
 ago, and the profit was £600,000. Their turnover is over £10,000,000 annually; 
 all the various large centers, to the detriment of the local man. The local 
 municipal exchequer suffers also ; had the money been sent to a local man, the 
 major portion would have gone to develop local resources. 
 
 I have some reasons why we oppose the parcel post. 
 
PARCEL, POST. 407 
 
 The Chairman. We would like very much to get those. Are they 
 prepared concretely ? 
 Mr. Green. I think so. [Reading :] 
 
 First. We oppose parcel post, because the physical conditions of this country, 
 represented by its vast area and scattered population, will make it absolutely 
 impossible to maintain such a carrying system at a flat rate without incurring 
 an incalculable deficit. 
 
 Second. Because it will centralize trade in the great cities, and since popula- 
 tion follows trade, the population of these cities will increase at the expense of 
 the population of our towns, villages, and communities adjacent to them, thus 
 intensifying the perplexity and the already serious problems of the centralized 
 population of our municipal governments. 
 
 Third. Because this drain of population from country to city and the conse- 
 quent increase in the size of our cities will produce a double economic problem, 
 viz: The number of people engaged in producing the foodstuffs for the Nation, 
 though already too few, will be diminished, while the consumptive demand for 
 the same will be increased, both tending toward a higher cost of living to our 
 entire population. 
 
 Fourth. Because parcel post will decrease the trade of our towns and villages, 
 and, as their power depends upon and is sustained by their trade, so this loss 
 of trade will diminish their power for good as social, educational, and religious 
 centers, thus isolating the American farmer and robbing him of those construc- 
 tive influences which now develop a broad, patriotic character and make him 
 the bulwark of the national stability. 
 
 Fifth. Because there are other features of our postal service which more 
 urgently demand adjustment and correction, and which ought and can have 
 attention, and the purpose of whose adjustment would be based upon the prin- 
 ciple of the greatest good to the greatest number. We refer to 1-cent letter 
 postage and the adjustment of rates on second-class matter. When a general 
 parcel post is considered in this country upon this principle — the greatest good 
 to the greatest number — it must fall or be driven to defeat. 
 
 The Chairman. You say you have 100,000 members of your or- 
 ganization in the United States? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. How far do these views that you have just pre- 
 sented to the committee represent the views of the 100,000 members ? 
 
 Mr. Green. As far as I know, they are general. 
 
 The Chairman. Are they unanimous? 
 
 Mr. Green. I think so. I have attended State meetings in at 
 least 35 States — maybe 30, to be sure, but I think more than that — 
 aDd every one of them has passed resolutions along these lines. 
 I have attended the national association meetings of the whole- 
 sale men, and they have done the same thing. I have attended other 
 meetings of the manufacturers and food distributers, and they have 
 adopted about the same resolutions. 
 
 The Chairman. In form? 
 
 Mr. Green. About the same form; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What are the main purposes of your organiza- 
 tion? 
 
 Mr. Green. Educational entirely. The first is the betterment of 
 the credit system. Second, the development of better business 
 methods, trying to educate our people to a thorough knowledge of 
 the goods they sell, the cost of the goods, the cost of doing business, 
 and a general educational line all the way through; that is the 
 object. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you give approximately the total investment 
 in the business of your organization ; that is, of all members i 
 21845— vol 2—12 10 
 
408 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Green. I would not like to give you that offhand, Senator, 
 but I will send it to you. 
 
 The Chairman. We shall be glad to receive it. Could you ex- 
 press an opinion that would be of value as to the average investment? 
 
 Mr. Green. I do not think so, not to give it to you anywhere 
 near exact, although I have had it and talked of it. 
 
 The Chairman. You could give practically an authoritative state- 
 ment? 
 
 Mr. Green. Not now. 
 
 The Chairman. Later, I mean. 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes, sir ; and would be glad to do it. 1 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly, at your convenience. Then 
 you will be able to and will furnish the committee with a statement 
 of the total number of your members, the total number of their em- 
 ployees, and the amount of capital invested, with such segregation 
 as the matter you have at hand will permit? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. That is of your own association and your own 
 opinion, giving a liberal estimate as to the number of people not 
 members of your association who are in a similar line of business, 
 with the probable capital invested and the probable number of 
 employees as well? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Do your members, as a rule, maintain delivery 
 systems of their own? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes, sir ; as a rule. There are a few exceptions. They 
 have cooperative delivery systems. 
 
 The Chairman. Explain that, will you, kindly? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes. In Fremont, Ohio, they have an excellent co- 
 operative delivery system. I shall not say whether they own the 
 system themselves or not, although I think they do, but there is a 
 system. It had reduced the cost of delivery a very large amount. 
 
 The Chairman. Who gets the benefit of that reduction in cost? 
 
 Mr. Green. Do you mean where does the profit go ? 
 
 The Chairman. Where does the saving go? 
 
 Mr. Green. I presume it cuts down the expense of the cost of 
 doing business in the stores. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the stores themselves receive the direct bene- 
 fit of that by their combination or by their increase of better trans- 
 portation facilities? 
 
 Mr. Green. Well, a less costly transportation and fully as good 
 as it was before. They are very well satisfied with it. I heard Mr. 
 Munce, the secretary, telling of it, and when I was there he ad- 
 dressed the Pennsylvania convention on that very proposition. Then 
 I attended the New Philadelphia, Ohio, opening, where they were 
 doing away with the individual delivery and beginning a coopera- 
 tive delivery, and they were well satisfied. I expect to hear from 
 them next Tuesday. 
 
 The Chairman. Do any of your members utilize local parcel de- 
 livery for their business? 
 
 Mr. Green. I do not know about that. _ 
 
 The Chairman. If this cooperative administration made in Ohio 
 is the success that you have hoped, why is not that system more 
 generally adopted? 
 
PARCEL POST. 409 
 
 Mr. Green. These are small towns, you know ; it will not work in 
 the big towns. 
 
 The Chairman. For what reasons ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Now take my own business, for instance. I have cus- 
 tomers 3 miles from the store, and some other men have customers 
 some other ways from the stores. Some of those men over here 
 come to my district to do business. Now, if we were all in a small 
 circuit it could be done very nicely by one taking one way and the 
 other taking the other way. 
 
 The Chairman. By routing the district. Is it any more difficult 
 to route 15 square miles than 1 square mile ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Very much, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. I can not see that, if you have your organization. 
 On the contrary, in my opinion, it would be easier— from the dollar 
 standpoint — to route 15 square miles with an increased volume of 
 business than it would be 1 square mile. In other words, you could 
 handle the business if equipped for the 15 square miles, on account of 
 greatly increased volume, better than you could for the 1 square mile; 
 I mean their package delivery. 
 
 Mr. Green. You are taking it for granted that all members of the 
 organization are like a family, that what one wants the other will do. 
 
 The Chairman. Because their interests would be the same, if they 
 were all in that organization. In other words, put in the most effi- 
 cient and cheapest method of delivery. The interest would be 
 common. 
 
 Mr. Green. I am very frank to say that this question has been 
 taken up and considered in Cleveland alone, and there isn't any 
 way we haven't considered it, but we haven't come to any conclu- 
 sion as to how the system can be handled in a large city. Com- 
 petition is extreme, jealousy is extreme in all lines of business, 
 and I want to tell you that you could no more tie a dozen men to a 
 certain thing in the organization than you could turn the sun back 
 Jo-morrow. 
 
 The Chairman. You could if you could demonstrate to their 
 satisfaction that it was to their interest, could you not ? 
 
 Mr. Green. I do not think so. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, you have a different viewpoint on human 
 nature than I have, then. 
 
 Mr. Green. You probably have not bucked up against the same 
 kind of human nature. 
 
 The Chairman. You say you make deliveries 3 miles away from 
 your store. What is the average weight of packages you deliver at 
 that distance? 
 
 Mr. Green. We only make trips there twice a week for that dis- 
 tance. We only make trips twice a week, and the average weight 
 would be — that is, the average volume 
 
 The Chairman. No; I want the weight. 
 
 Mr. Green. One package of a bushel basket full might not weigh 
 what a package of a peck basketful would weigh, but if you want 
 the weight I should judge that anywhere from 60 pounds — not very 
 much less than that — from 40 to 60 pounds, say. 
 
 The Chairman. Then an 11-pound parcel post would not inter- 
 fere with that at all ? 
 
410 PABCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Green. We are talking now about going to a customer twice a 
 week and that customer from a store and ordering what is wanted, 
 Now, if the customer could buy a small package — a pound of tea 
 say — he might not stop to care whether the mail man came to hi3 
 door. He would say, " I could send a postal card and would get it 
 to-morrow morning." 
 The Chairman. To whom would they send the postal card? 
 Mr. Green. To whoever they wanted to send it. 
 The Chairman. Suppose they sent it to you? 
 Mr. Green. They might not. 
 
 The Chairman. Why would they not, if you had been the store- 
 keeper with whom they generally dealt? What would be the reason 
 for changing from you to somebody else ? 
 
 Mr. Green. If I come to you every morning, Senator, our inter- 
 ests are mutual, but if I do not see you I would lose my interest in 
 you if I were trading with you, maybe ; maybe not. 
 
 The Chairman. Would it not entirely depend upon the service 
 that I render you and the quality of goods I deliver to you and the 
 prices, rather than to our personal appearance ? 
 Mr. Green. Not very much. 
 
 The Chairman. To come back to the question : As to the average 
 weight, you think it would be about 60 pounds ? 
 Mr. Greek. From 40 to 60 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. What would you figure the expense per parcel 
 for that delivery? In other words, what additional charge do you 
 make on the article sold to cover the cost of delivery to the pur- 
 chaser ? 
 
 Mr. Green. There is no difference in the price, whether you de- 
 liver it 1 mile or whether you deliver it 5 miles. You have to aver- 
 age up your expenses, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. In your estimate as to prices, what do you figure 
 the cost of delivery per parcel ? 
 
 Mr. Green. We never figure it per parcel. 
 The Chairman. How do you figure it ? Per pound ? 
 Mr. Green. We simply take the entire business and the cost of 
 doing it. We do not figure on the individual customer or the indi- 
 vidual order. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, you take into your calculations, do you not, 
 the cost of delivery when you fix your prices? 
 
 Mr. Green. Certainly. It is all taken into what is the cost of 
 doing tho business. 
 
 The Chairman. But you never make a segregation as to the spe- 
 cific cost per pound of the delivery, on the doctrine of averages, in 
 your scope of business ? 
 Mr. Green. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What is your definition of a parcel post, Mr. 
 Green ? 
 
 Mr. Green. The definition of a parcel post is this: The incentive 
 to take away the money from one place and send it to another. 
 
 The Chairman. That is unique. Now, what is your modus oper- 
 andi for that transfer? 
 
 Mr. Green. That just came to my mind, Senator; that is just 
 what it is. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, in your opinion, the parcel post is a branch 
 of the banking business ? 
 
PABCEL POST. 411 
 
 Mr. Green. Not particularly the banking business, because they 
 can send money to the bank already without the parcel post. They 
 can do that with the money-order system ; but the idea, Senator, is 
 that parcel post is to enable people in one town to send to another 
 town for goods and have the Government carry it at a certain price 
 per number of pounds, as I understand it. That is your parcel-post 
 measure. Of course, I can only see the incentive to send away to 
 a large city for goods which will practically take away from the 
 merchant in a small town the trade which he now has. I do not 
 know what there is in human nature, but, Senator, there is something 
 in me that will say that a suit of clothes brought from Chicago or 
 New York would be better than a suit of clothes that I could buy 
 in Fremont, or some other town. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a sad commentary on the intelligence of 
 the purchaser, is it not? 
 
 Mr. Green. There is an incentive; the fact that he thinks he can 
 do better. 
 
 The Chairman. Does not the purchaser always seek the cheapest 
 market? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes, sir. He will take the cheapest market. 
 
 The Chairman. You won't buy in New York if you can buy in 
 Chicago cheaper? 
 
 Mr. Green. Well, Chicago is the same; but some other town, for 
 instance. Supposing that I could buy a suit of clothes in Chicago 
 as cheap as I can buy it in some little town of 2,500 inhabitants- 
 there is always a feeling that you can get a better thing there for the 
 same money. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you not suppose that the purchaser comes to 
 a realization after several purchases that he is mistaken in that 
 feeling ? 
 
 Mr. Green. In some ways. He is not doing it just now ; there are 
 a great many of them buying groceries away from home, clothing 
 away from home, and hardware. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, your objection applies to all kinds of trans- 
 portation as well ? 
 
 Mr. Green. All kinds of merchandise. 
 
 The Chairman. I say transportation. From your, viewpoint the 
 parcel post must be an increased transportation facility to the peo- 
 ple. The same objection you make to the parcel post here would 
 apply to the railroads and the express companies' freight ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Well, hardly to that extent in that way, because we 
 have those and we are using them and we want them, but this is ex- 
 tending the business end of the thing in a different way to any- 
 thing we have. 
 
 The Chairman. No; it^s enlarging the present machinery which 
 we have. In your letter to me as chairman of this committee, dated 
 November 27, you stated : " I will at once prepare a statement giv- 
 ing our reasons for opposing the parcel post." 
 
 Mr. Green. I have given you that. 
 
 The Chairman. In the researches which you made upon which 
 you base your objections, how extensive has the study been and how 
 familiar are you with the actual operation and demonstration of par- 
 cel-post systems in other countries ? 
 
 Mr. Green. This last summer in July, or rather in June, I left 
 here bearing a letter to the American consul in Berlin. As a cour- 
 
412 PABCEL POST. 
 
 tesy he sent one of his deputies with me the next day, and we went 
 through the package department of the German post office in Berlin, 
 I had an opportunity of seeing business there ; the amount of busi- 
 ness done ; the number of wagons employed ; and also found that they 
 had a zone system there, of which I have a copy here. I do not know 
 whether you here have ever looked at it or not. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; we have had that. 
 
 Mr. Green. I brought it back with me. I found that they have 180 
 wagons receiving and delivering packages in Berlin alone; I asked 
 the inspector whether the system paid, and he said it did pay a small 
 amount, but they were not satisfied with it, neither the people them- 
 seles nor the merchants who used it. They hoped within a very short 
 time to have a general one-price package system. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, they were dissatisfied with the zone 
 system ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Dissatisfied with the zone system, and wanted a one- 
 price straight-rate system, and he thought that within a little while 
 the demand would be such that they would inaugurate the system. 
 
 The Chairman. The people and the merchants both being anxious 
 for the abolishment of the zone system and the adoption of a general 
 system ? 
 
 Mr. Green. That is right. They received 40,000 packages a day; 
 where the people called for the packages, there was no extra charge; 
 where the packages were delivered, there was an extra charge. 
 
 The Chairman. What amount, what extra charge? 
 
 Mr. Green. He did not say, and I really could not ask him any 
 questions. He was very kind, indeed, and I rather trusted to what 
 he would tell me than burden him with a lot of questions. 
 
 The Chairman. He was the local inspector? 
 
 Mr. Green. He was the inspector in charge of the package office. 
 He seemed to be the head man there. 
 
 The Chairman. What weights were they carrying?' 
 
 Mr. Green. I could tell you more about the size than the weights. 
 I did not ask him about the weights particularly. I saw packages 
 there that were possibly between 3 \ and 4 feet long. I should judge 
 at least a foot square, maybe larger than that. If they were a little 
 longer they might not be so thick, and I saw a great many of them. t 
 Then he said that some of the larger packages, for instance, Paris j 
 hats, did not pay expenses, and it had to be evened up with the 
 smaller packages. He said that the boxes were so very large that 
 they could get very few in a van. Now, in England 
 
 The Chairman. Before you leave Berlin ; did they carry the pack- 
 ages in hampers? . . 
 
 Mr. Green. If they were small packages, yes. The larger packages, 
 of course, were put in themselves. From the delivery room we were 
 carried into the distribution room. There were shelves, just the same 
 as if you go into a large department store here. You would find the . 
 packages going to a route on those shelves. 
 
 The Chairman. You stated that there were 40,000 packages; re- 
 ceived daily. Does that mean the in-and-out business both, or gust 
 the in business? 
 
 . Mr. Green. I understood that it was 40,000 both ways, but I might 
 be mistaken in that. I understood him to say,, however, 40,00.0 re- 
 ceived daily, 10,000 of which were taken away from the office and 
 30,000 were delivered. 
 
PAECEL POST. 413 
 
 The Chairman. Ten thousand of which were taken away and 30,000 
 received ? 
 
 ' Mr. Green. No; delivered. Ten thousand were called for and 
 carried away and 30,000 delivered by the wagons. There were 180 
 wagons, I think I stated. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you state how much time you put in in this 
 study of the Berlin system ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Well, I spent only one day, in fact, in the building, 
 and one day, or part of a day, with the consul and in talking with 
 the deputy. Of course, the balance of the time I have written up on 
 the subject since I came home. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, will you kindly tell us about England? 
 
 Mr. Green. I have made two trips to England, but the last one I 
 took in some of the smaller towns in the south, in Wales — in south 
 Wales and in north Wales. I was going back to the hotel one night, 
 about 5 miles from the city of Swansea, about 8 o'clock, and I met 
 the postman delivering packages then. I am sorry to say that I did 
 not mark down the amount of wages he told me he received, but I 
 have in mind that the wages were very much less than those received 
 by our men here. I learned from him that he began at 7 o'clock in 
 the morning to make his deliveries. He returned to the office and was 
 laid off until the next mail came in. The last mail, I think, he started 
 out with at 7 o'clock at night, and I think he got through at some- 
 thing like 9 o'clock, so that he was in constant service during that 
 time, other than the time that he was laid off between mails, which 
 time is not counted in the working hours. This young man was de- 
 livering packages. He had three large packages at the time. Where 
 they can not be carried by hand they have a little cart. Now, what I 
 want to bring out is this, that in that little town there was not what 
 you would call any kind of a respectable clothing, grocery, or shoe 
 store. 
 
 The Chairman. What town was that ? 
 
 Mr. Green. The town of Langley. 
 
 The Chairman. In Wales ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes ; in south Wales. The business is all done through 
 the post office or the mail-order system. 
 
 The Chairman. But there was a town there? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And some stores? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. How many people ? 
 ' Mr. Green. Altogether, possibly 1,000 or 1,500. 
 
 The Chairman. And there were stores ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes; there were some stores there, but they were very 
 little stores — what is called commonly "shops " in England. Now, 
 the same thing that will hold there will hold good in the northern part 
 of England, and in Scotland as well. 
 
 The Chairman. Were you there? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes, sir. ■ i 
 
 The Chairman. And saw the same conditions ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes. There was a little town between Edinburgh 
 and Glasgow — it does not come to my mind just now — where a lady 
 was sending to London for dry goods. When I got back here I told 
 
414 PARCEL POST. 
 
 her sister about it — her sister lives in Cleveland — and she regretted 
 because she could not do the same thing here. She thought she ought 
 to be able to send to New York and get the same things here. If 
 you can get anything at all that is good, you want to come to Cleve- 
 land. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, we will just confine our experience to the 
 subject matter in hand. 
 
 Mr. Green. But I just wanted to put in a good word for Cleve- 
 land. As far as England is concerned, there are such firms as 
 Whiteleys, as I stated to you before, and others that make special 
 runs for people and go up to London and buy their goods. 
 
 The Chairman. These firms make special runs how? 
 
 Mr. Green. That is, they pay the expense of people that come from 
 outlying towns to London. 
 
 The Chairman. Whether they buy or not? 
 
 Mr. Green. No; it is expected that they buy. They take them to 
 the store, and I think they would not refund their money unless they 
 did buy. " The independent grocer," I have heard, " and the small 
 retailer have been sent to a most parsimonious living. These activi- 
 ties rendered possible to big firms centrally located and helped out in 
 its delivery service by a national Government." 
 
 The Chairman. What does this refer to? 
 
 Mr. Green. That refers to England. 
 
 The Chairman. This was your impression? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes, sir; these same evils will accomplish the same 
 result for the American general merchant and retailer if they obtain 
 a foothold in the United States. 
 
 The Chairman. Because the same conditions are in the United 
 States as in England ? 
 
 Mr. Green. They will be if the parcel post is enacted, to say noth- 
 ing about the difference in distance that the Government would be 
 compelled to carry goods ; the difference in the sparsely settled sec- 
 tions of the United States in comparison with the thickly settled 
 European countries, it would be about the same. 
 
 The Chairman. If to-day a customer of yours can not get a suit 
 of clothes from you, he goes to somebody else, does he not ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And if you do not carry clothes, you can not ob- 
 ject to his doing that, can you ? 
 
 Mr. Green. That, I would hardly think, would apply to the ques- 
 tion, because there are so many other people there that do. 
 
 The Chairman. In your immediate locality? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes, sir. And there is another thing, Senator, that 
 possibly you do not know. A great many of our associations are 
 known as " merchants' associations," taking in all classes of merchants 
 in North Carolina, Iowa, Pennsylvania, and a great many known as 
 the General Merchants' Association. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Green, do you consider the parcel post in its 
 present form,- with a weight limit of 4 pounds, as a means of trans- 
 porting merchandise? 
 
 Mr. Green. Not to a very great extent. 
 
 The Chairman. Any extension of this system would probably fur- 
 nish additional facilities for transportaion of merchandise ? 
 
PARCEL POST. 415 
 
 Mr. Gheen. It would. 
 
 The Chairman. The Post Office Department has estimated that 
 about 145,000,000 parcels a year are carried in the mails at the present 
 rate. Do you suppose that your members now send fourth-class 
 matter through the mails upon occasion ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Possibly so, but not to any great extent; not as a 
 business proposition — that is, a general business proposition, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. Elaborate that a little. If they utilize the mails 
 at all, why do they utilize them if it does not help them in its opera- 
 tions ? 
 
 Mr. Green. There are times possibly when a person may want 
 something in a hurry, and if that thing can be gotten in a hurry they 
 may use it to that extent, but in a general way I am sure they do not 
 use it, because it is too expensive to use in a general way. 
 
 The Chairman. Would they not use the mails for the dispatch 
 and receipt of fourth-class mail matter more extensively than at 
 present if the weight limit were increased and the rate reduced ? 
 
 Mr. Green. I question that very much, Senator, because the man 
 who keeps in touch with his business knows pretty nearly what he 
 wants, and he will use the freight rather than any express or postage. 
 
 The Chairman. Because it is cheaper, is that it? 
 
 Mr. Green. Well, he could not carry the amount that any of us 
 merchants would want through the mails to any great extent other 
 than it would be just a temporary order of some kind. It might be 
 a small amount. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it your opinion that the large department 
 stores and mail-order houses would benefit to a much greater extent 
 by parcel post than would the merchants represented by your asso- 
 ciation ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes, sir ; I found another thing in England that would 
 impress that upon my mind more than any one other thing. I found 
 that their agents working the small towns soliciting orders and 
 sending those orders up to London and to Manchester from other 
 sections, but London especially, and they are paid for that, as near 
 as I could learn, a twopence a booking charge for an order. I also 
 found that those men were making a living at it. If we are going 
 to have a parcel post here that will carry goods so that they can be 
 used in that way, are we not going to face the same thing — laborers 
 looking for employment. It would be one of the easiest things in 
 the world for a man to take his little book in his pocket and go out 
 and solicit custom. 
 
 The Chairman. Would he go from Washington to San Francisco 
 for his twopence order ? 
 
 Mr. Green. He would not have to, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. He would from some one in San Francisco ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes; or in the outlying districts. 
 
 The Chairman. Did the department stores there use catalogues ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Do the department stores in the United States 
 send out these agents? 
 
 Mr. Green. Only in one instance am I sure that they have — peo- 
 ple soliciting orders, with the exception of one firm, and that is the 
 firm of Larkins. Larkins have clubs now, and one other instance 
 I came across where a telegraph operator, while I was waiting for a 
 
416 PARCEL POST. 
 
 train. This was the only man I ever saw soliciting orders. In a 
 little town the operator had a catalogue and took the orders from 
 the people there and sent them on. 
 
 The Chairman. Receiving a fee for it ? 
 
 Mr. Green. A small fee ; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. There are 60,000 post offices, in round numbers, in 
 the United States. Any department store would have to have 60,000 
 agents over the country to cover the field, would it not ? 
 
 Mr. Green. I do not think that the mail-order houses, Senator 
 would have any trouble about that. I think they would have a great 
 many men trying to get that business. 
 
 The Chairman. You think, then, that the increase in the weight 
 limit to 11 pounds and a decrease in postage would immediately 
 work to such an advantage to the mail-order houses that they would 
 utilize that as their exclusive method of transportation and establish 
 agencies all over the country? 
 
 Mr. Green. I would not go so far as that, but I think it would be 
 used to a very great extent. 
 
 The Chairman. It would depend entirely upon what was carried 
 through the mails and upon the rates established ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Exactly. 
 
 The Chairman. Do the departmental stores to-day utilize the ex- 
 press companies or do they utilize the freight? Is there a profit in 
 the concentration of their orders and handling in large amounts; 
 that is, centralization and utilization of the cheapest rates? 
 
 Mr. Green. They use the freights to a very large extent. 
 
 The Chairman. To a very large extent, yes ; but would not they 
 continue to do that? 
 
 Mr. Green. The question would be whether the other system would 
 not be better or cheaper, and it looks to us as though that is where 
 we shall have our trouble ; in getting stuff through the mail. 
 
 The Chairman. They will not ship it through the mail unless 
 they can ship it cheaper, will they, Mr. Green ? There is no inten- 
 tion that I have heard or no bill that has been presented where it is 
 expected that the Government can handle parcel post at a cheaper 
 rate than you can obtain now through the freights. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Have you any objection, Mr. Green, to a rural 
 parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes; because I can see no good in it. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Is not your objection based simply upon the fact 
 that later it might be extended into a general parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes : to a very great extent. 
 
 Senator Bryan. If it should not be extended into a general parcel 
 post, what objection would you have to a rural parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Green. It is not doing anybody any good. 
 
 Senator Bryan. But would it not do good, both to the merchants 
 and those on the route, if it were possible to carry at rates that would 
 permit the use of the system ? 
 
 Mr. Green. I have thought seriously and taken into consideration 
 this matter, looked at it very, very carefully and have for years, and 
 I fail to see where it would benefit the country merchant one iota to 
 have a rural parcel post — not one iota. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Well, I can not see that. 
 
 The Chairman. I can not follow you at all on that, Mr. Green. 
 
PARCEL POST. 417 
 
 Senator Bryan. That is the reason I wanted to get your reasons 
 for your belief, if you can give them. 
 
 Mr. Green. If it is worth considering just a minute, where is the 
 benefit going to come in? The idea I can see is to send the goods 
 from the store out to the farm. That is the idea, is it not ? 
 
 Senator Bryan. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Green. Now, the farmer comes in there ; he does not come in 
 for his mail any more, but he does come in ; he likes to get in touch 
 with the storekeeper. 
 
 The Chairman. Why doesn't he come in for his mail ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Because you send it to him, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. If you sent him his goods he would have just so 
 much more time, would he not, to put in in the development of his 
 farm? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes ; but still at the same time I would hate 
 
 The Chairman. Would not it be a convenience to him ? 
 
 Mr. Green. I question whether he would not prefer to come and 
 get his own goods. 
 
 The Chairman. He would have that option, would he not ? 
 
 Mr. Green. The merchant would very much prefer that he would 
 come. 
 
 The Chairman. On the assumption that he would buy more? 
 
 Mr. Green. On the assumption that he would have very much 
 better satisfaction. You come to a store and look over a lot of goods 
 that you want and you take what you want. You see it and feel it 
 and are satisfied with it, but the chances are that you would much 
 prefer and the merchant would much prefer that you go there and 
 select what you want yourself. I would much prefer that the entire 
 solicitation of business was done away with, and the customer come 
 to my store. When they come to the store they see what they want, 
 and they are perfectly satisfied with it, where if you send it out there 
 is that chance of dissatisfaction. 
 
 The Chairman. Does not that chance exist to a still greater extent 
 with the departmental store ? Now, about these two forces ; a while 
 ago you were telling us that, due to the peculiarity of human nature, 
 the individual would prefer to get something at a great distance; 
 now you say that he would prefer to see, feel, and handle what he 
 wants. 
 
 Mr. Green. We are talking now of this country business. 
 
 The Chairman. But the same forces control human nature, do 
 they not? 
 
 Mr. Green. To a certain extent it may; but I am sure the retail 
 merchants all over the country, no matter where the town is — I have 
 not found but very, very few but what are absolutely opposed to it. 
 
 Senator Bryan. That is true ; and I want to get you to state the 
 reason for that feeling. 
 
 Mr. Green. Wherever there are a few farmers or a sparsely settled 
 community, you will find a store. It goes right to their door. It is 
 not as it used to be- Men do not have to pay in advance now. Where 
 they are breaking up these new territories the very first thing there is 
 a man that sells prunes. 
 
 The Chairman. He sells something besides prunes, does he not? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes; a general store. He is a part of the advance 
 of civilization. 
 
418 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. He is there before the post office is established? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes ; and they put the post office in his store. He is 
 there first. Now, what do you want to do? I do not know how 
 you feel about parcel post ; I do not want to know. All I want to 
 do is to present my opinion, based on an extensive observation, both 
 in this country and Europe, conscientiously and honestly and with 
 every interest, not only of a merchant's capacity. A man must be 
 bigger than a merchant, Senator; he must be bigger than a system. 
 Is the parcel post going to benefit everybody? If it is_not, we do 
 not want it. 
 
 The Chairman. But you believe in the greatest good for the great- 
 est number, I understood you to say ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You believe in justice to all men? 
 
 Mr. Green. That is right. 
 
 The Chairman. Is the express rate the same for the small mer- 
 chant as it is for the large departmental store or mail-order house ? 
 
 Mr. Green. I am not familiar enough with that to say. 
 
 The Chairman. It is not lower for the retail merchant than it is 
 for the wholesale man? 
 
 Mr. Green. I do not know. 
 
 The Chairman. Why have not all the direful results you seem to 
 anticipate from a parcel post actually occurred because of the very 
 much lower express rates that are now open to all comers, when, 
 as a matter of fact, the wholesale merchants get better rates from the 
 •express companies than the common merchants? 
 
 Mr. Green. Do the wholesalers get better rates ? 
 
 The Chairman. They do in some instances, yes; because of the 
 volume of the business and the zone that they operate in, because the 
 express business is operated under a system of zones similar to the 
 parcel post in Germany. 
 
 Mr. Green. The small merchant does not to a very great extent 
 use the express business. They use the freight and I do not think 
 that they come in contact or competition with the express companies 
 as used by the larger stores. 
 
 The Chairman. Their business is entirely done by freight? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes, nearly ; I do not know of but very little that is 
 not. • 
 
 The Chairman. You are aware that Germany has the most exten- 
 sive parcel-post system in existence? • -.j 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes, sir. s 
 
 The Chairman. And from your point of view and your line of 
 reasoning you would deduce that because of the existence of that 
 system the department store would be benefited and the country 
 merchant injured? 
 
 Mr. Green. In parcel-post legislation, yes. 
 
 The Chairman. I wish to incorporate in the record at this point 
 the following official information received from our diplomatic rep- ^ 
 resentative at Berlin in response to a request made at the instance of 
 this committee, by the State Department, through regular diplomatic 
 •channels : 
 
 The attitude of the German people with reference to the parcel post would 
 ■be difficult to define, since the people regard the parcel post as they do tie j 
 regular letter post. The ben fits to the people which have resulted In its opera- 
 
PABCEL POST. 419 1 
 
 tion are quick and cheap transmission of parcels and, in general, all the benefits 
 which are claimed for such a system by its advocates in the United States. It 
 can not be discovered that there is any opposition by shopkeepers in small town* 
 on the ground that the parcel post operates to their damage in favor of large 
 departmental stores. The conditions governing retail, trade in Germany are so- 
 different that it is almost impossible to draw a parallel on this point. There 
 is comparatively little trade done by large German department stores — which, 
 in point of fact, are comparatively few — outside the immediate delivery area of 
 their respective cities. 
 
 Mr. Green. Might I say that the deputy who took me over the 
 German package-post building said that he bought all his groceries 
 in Berlin. I think he said that he lived 26 miles away. I said, 
 " Haven't you got any grocery stores at home ? " He said, " Yes ; but 
 they charge me more than they do here, and I have my groceries 
 sent out." 
 
 The Chairman. In my own consideration of the subject of parcel 
 post, it has seemed to me that many of the forces influencing human 
 action which now operate in favor of the local merchant and which, 
 perhaps, account in a measure for his very existence as a local mer- 
 chant would continue to favor him if a general parcel post were 
 established. You have touched some of the same forces controlling 
 human nature. The average person would rather inspect his pur- 
 chase before accepting it, would he not ? 
 
 Mr. Green. I presume he would, if he were- so permitted. The 
 question is whether they would be permitted to. 
 
 The Chairman. He would rather inspect them ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes ; he would rather inspect them. 
 
 The Chairman. He could do this more conveniently by trading 
 with the local dealer, could he not ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes ; that may be true. 
 
 The Chairman. But you stated it as the truth a while ago. Ordi- 
 • narily, he would rather use a telephone or give his order personally 
 than write a letter on the subject, would he not? 
 
 Mr. Green. I do not know. It just depends upon what the incen- 
 tive would be; People who have these catalogues, for instance, they 
 look at those catalogues, and they look at the pictures in the cata- 
 logues, and they look at the prices in the catalogues. 
 
 The Chairman. They do consider the prices? 
 
 Mr. Green. Altogether. They look at the prices and everything 
 else ; but even though the price is considered lower, they have to pay 
 the freight on it at that. But the fact that the price is quoted lower 
 has a great deal to do with it. Sometimes those pictures have a great 
 deal to do with their sending away, of course. There is no question 
 in my mind but what a parcel post would just rob a country town 
 of its trade in less time than you could tell it. I have looked into it 
 so thoroughly. 
 
 The Chairman. That is your idea, Mr. Green? We have yet to 
 receive any demonstration that your fears are well founded. 
 
 Mr. Green. I do not know that I have anything here that will 
 demonstrate it or not. I just happened to see a little article from 
 "Leslie M. Shaw the other day, from a, speech in Pittsburgh. Will 
 you allow me to read it? 
 
 The Chairman. I do not think it has any bearing here, unless 
 there is information contained in there of value. 
 
420 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Green. It just makes an assertion. Of the parcel post, he 
 said that cheap postal delivery of merchandise would militate the 
 trade of the small country merchant and the rural banker. "Re- 
 member," he said, lifting a warning finger, " that if this Government 
 is going to stand we must protect the rural citizen, the small com- 
 munity that forms the pillar in support of our Government fabric. 
 It is not the large city that maintains our country. If we intrusted 
 Federal control to the large cities — New York, Chicago, or Phila- 
 delphia — we should have no republic. Therefore we must stand by 
 the rural communities. Congress must not pass laws that will hin- 
 der their prosperity. A blow at their business interests is a direct 
 blow at their institutions, amounting to an assault upon the very 
 basis of our social system." 
 
 The Chairman. Now ? Mr. Green, presumably a consumer would 
 have less trouble in buying on credit from a store kept by his neigh- 
 bor and friend than he would experience if he attempted to borrow 
 the cash at a bank and open an account with a large metropolitan 
 store, would he not? 
 
 Mr. Green. I want to say here that the fact that he can order 
 from a metropolitan store does not necessitate his having a bank 
 account in the city. 
 
 The Chairman. He has to pay at the departmental store in cash, 
 does he not? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes ; and that is one of the things where we can see 
 the loss; the man who pays the cash — even though he can buy as 
 cheaply at home, he very often will send off. 
 
 The Chairman. He does that under the existing conditions. 
 
 Mr. Green. Under the existing conditions, yes ; but he will do it 
 very much more under more favorable conditions, and consequently 
 how can a little city thrive on nothing but the credit ? 
 
 The Chairman. Is it not true that in many instances where he ■ 
 has not got the cash it is easier for him to get credit at the country 
 store than it is to borrow the cash and send it on to the departmental 
 store ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Very often that is true; in fact, in most cases it is 
 true. 
 
 The Chairman. So it is to the advantage of the country mer- 
 chant, provided he pays his bills ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes ; providing he pays his bills. 
 
 Senator Bryan. In that connection, do you not have to consider 
 this question, that a customer may have exhausted his credit at the 
 store, and, coming into the possession of cash, instead of having any 
 further credit extended to him, his merchant would expect hint to 
 apply the cash on the amount already due, and in order to get him- 
 self out of that situation he sends the money away to these depart- 
 mental stores? 
 
 Mr. Green. That is it exactly. Now, here is a little statement that 
 I have prepared in answer to your reading of the consul's report. I 
 might have said that the comparisons are not always applicable be- 
 tween foreign countries and ourselves. 
 
 The Chairman. But they can be met provided you take into con- 
 sideration the difference in existing conditions between the countries. 
 
PARCEL POST. 421 
 
 Mr. Green. If you take into consideration those differences, the 
 Government ownership and rigid regulations and a good many other 
 things. 
 
 The Chairman. All those differences will be taken into considera- 
 tion in the study that is to be made. Is it not true that your cus- 
 tomers realize that it is easier to return articles purchased upon credit 
 than those for which the cash has been paid ? 
 
 Mr. Green. That is a very peculiar question, Senator. For in- 
 stance, I have been in business a great many years 
 
 The Chairman. I am not making it to you personally, at all ; I am 
 making it to a general storekeeper. Is there not an impression in 
 the customer's mind, I will put it that way, that it is easier for him 
 to return an article which he has had charged to him than it is to 
 return an article that he has paid for and get the cash back ? 
 
 Mr. Green. It has not been my experience. I can only talk now 
 as a business man myself. It has not been my experience, and I can 
 go further than that and say that a man who has a large cash trade 
 can not afford to antagonize that cash trade, and I would say that if 
 a man goes back to any thriving, successful merchant, even though 
 he had paid for the goods, usually he found a ready willingness to 
 change and make good anything that comes from a cash customer. 
 
 The Chairman. Would it not be the impression of the purchaser 
 that he would receive that fair treatment more readily from the hands 
 of his friend running the country store than he would from the 
 stranger running a big departmental store handling 60,000 orders a 
 year? 
 
 Mr. Green. There is one thing about it, Senator, that you are 
 overlooking. That is, if he is sending away from his store, from his 
 corner, into Chicago or New York for his goods, he is not caring 
 very much about the welfare of the merchant who is in the town, 
 and the consequence is that there can not be any friendship between 
 them. 
 
 The Chairman. He is looking entirely to his own pocket, as every- 
 body is in society. Wouldn't he feel that if he parted from his cash 
 before he received his goods that there would be more difficulty in 
 returning the goods and getting back cash than if he had received 
 the goods and had paid for them ? 
 
 Mr. Green. You mean now if the purchase is made at a distance ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; would not that be the impression ? 
 
 Mr. Geeen. It might be. 
 
 The Chairman. Also, would not he feel easier to settle the matter 
 by a personal interview with the merchant at home, whom he could 
 personally see, than by correspondence with the departmental stores, 
 none of whom he would know, and with whom he could not have a 
 personal interview because of the distance? That is, if you are a 
 local merchant and I buy from you and the goods are not satisfactory, 
 I can come back to you and explain more easily than I could by 
 letter with some one at a distance. 
 
 -Mr. Green. There is no question about that. 
 
 The Chairman. Does the retail merchant do any business with the 
 departmental store, with the country storekeepers? 
 
 Mr. Green. Not that I know of; he may, but not so that you 
 would know anything about it. 
 
422 PAKCEL, POST. 
 
 The Chairman. My information is that they do qtlite a large 
 business, according to Sears, Koebuck & Co.'s statement to me about 
 a year ago in Chicago. 
 
 Mr. Green. I have not any record of it, and do not know a thing 
 about it. 
 
 The Chairman. I have no knowledge, except the statement I re- 
 ceived from them. 
 
 Mr. Green. If they say so, it is correct. There is no question 
 about that. 
 
 The Chairman. Then your opinion is that the retail merchant 
 could not utilize the parcel post to replenish his stock when small 
 quantities of a particular article were needed so promptly that it 
 would pay him to have them sent by mail ? 
 
 Mr. Green. I would not say that he would not use it for one ar- 
 ticle or for two articles a week ; but in a general way he would not 
 use it, because his purchases are so large that he could not use it. In 
 an individual case, Senator, something that he is out of just at that 
 moment he might use it, but I do not see where he could use it in a 
 general way. 
 
 The Chairman. Taking the merchant as a unit and taking the 
 customer as a unit, do you not think that the merchant would use it 
 of tener than the customer ; that is, the average individual ? 
 
 Mr. Green. I do not think so. I am now basing my opinion on 
 what I have learned both in our own country and in England; more 
 in England than in Germany, where I saw so many of those men 
 soliciting the business. A man with no capital, you understand, can 
 go right into a community — he must have some understanding, of 
 course; he must be known as reputable — but a man with no capital 
 can go into a community and solicit business. 
 
 The Chairman. He is simply a salaried employee on a percentage 
 basis. You have that in all business. 
 
 Mr. Green. He simply takes it on himself ; any of them will say 
 that he will take your orders. 
 
 The Chairman. He has to have some recognition from the store 
 itself, has he not ? Anyone can not promiscuously go out and solicit 
 orders and transfer them ? At present the large city stores and mail- 
 order houses enjoy transportation facilities which are not available' 
 to the country merchant, do they not? 
 
 Mr. Green. You mean on account of bulk ? 
 
 The Chairman. I mean on account of location. 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes ; the country merchant must ship from those large ■ 
 centers. 
 
 The Chairman. Then as to railroad facilities, delivery wagons, 
 express facilities, on account of their proximity to express terminals, 
 etc., they are much better supplied than the average retail merchant, 
 are they not? They can handle their business cheaper? 
 
 Mr. Green. I do not know about that. They may and they may 
 not. The expense of a business in Chicago would be very much more 
 than a business somewhere else, outside of the smaller city. Help 
 would be more expensive in Chicago than in smaller cities, and the 
 general expenses altogether might be evened up. . 
 
 The Chairman. Not as applied against the article itself. Wh" e 
 the rentals and the overhead charges are much greater, the volume 
 
PARCEL POST. 423 
 
 of business is so much greater that when it comes down to the in- 
 dividual unit the expense is less; otherwise you would not have the 
 growth of the big stores in the big cities, would you ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Of course, the growth is something that I do not 
 understand. The growth comes by business, I understand that all 
 right, but what their other expenses are and the reasons, I am not 
 able to say. There is one thing I know, the man, as I said before, 
 who in a small city pays for his goods can get those goods as near 
 right as anybody can get them, and, his expenses being so much less, 
 he can compete. I want to say that I am not afraid of any man in 
 the world so far as his prices are concerned. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean in your own territory ? 
 
 Mr. Green. In my own territory, or I would not be afraid to go 
 in business anywhere and' compete with any house that has to buy 
 goods the same as I have and pay for them. 
 
 The Chairman. But you would be very much afraid if the general 
 scope of the parcel post were enlarged? 
 
 Mr. Green. I am afraid for the general business of the country; 
 I am not afraid for the general merchant of the country. 
 
 The Chairman. If your position is tenable, some one has got to be 
 benefited. Who would be benefited? You indicate who would be 
 injured; who would be benefited? 
 
 Mr. Green. I think the benefit would go to the big houses in the 
 city. Concentration and centralization are made not only possible, 
 but very probably by an enlarged parcel post. The development 
 of abnormally large industries in cities would be a menace to oui 
 Government, and create a condition that is particularly detrimental 
 to the poorer classes. 
 
 The Chairman. That is your opinion, but, Mr. Green, you say that 
 you would not be afraid to do business anywhere. 
 
 Mr. Green. Personally, I would not. 
 
 The Chairman. The volume of business would be handled by the 
 railroad companies the same as it is to-day, would it not, even if the 
 parcels post were extended? 
 
 Mr. Green. That is the only means of distribution, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. So that the conditions would not be changed? 
 
 Mr. Green. Not particularly; no. 
 
 The Chairman. Then I do not catch the ground for your fears. 
 
 Mr. Green. Well, there is a ground for the fear. The fact that 
 if the people send to Chicago, for instance, and they can buy their 
 goods there, saving the freight — Sears, Roebuck have paid freight. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you expect that the Government is going to 
 carry the parcels for nothing or at a loss ? 
 
 Mr. Green. According to the legislation that has been introduced, 
 1 do. Lam only basing my opinion on the legislation that has been 
 introduced. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose that the present law were enlarged to 
 an 11-pound weight limit and the rates were reduced to, say, 6 cents 
 a minimum unit of 8 ounces, 8 cents between 8 ounces and 12 ounces, 
 and 10 cents between 12 ounces and 16 ounces or 1 pound, and then 
 with 4 cents increase for every pound or fractional part of a pound, 
 you would then have 50 cents total charge for an 11-pound package. 
 You would have 10 cents for 1 pound, and you would have an in- 
 
 21845— vol 2—12 11 
 
424 PARCEL POST. 
 
 crease of 4 cents for every additional pound or fraction of a pound. 
 Now, taking that as a concrete case 
 
 Mr. Green. That is, 50 cents for 11 pounds ( 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; with the present classification as to what 
 would be mailable under fourth-class matter ? 
 
 Mr. Green. You can mail about the same as they plan to mail un- 
 der the increased postal facilities ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; assuming that the same material is permis- 
 sible under the mails as under the present fourth-class mail matter. 
 Do you see great danger from that ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Fifty cents would be a little better than 25 cents, of 
 course, but even at that, Senator, I can see great danger in carrying 
 the goods at any price through the mails or by the malls. 
 
 The Chairman. Specify, if you will, the dangers that would come, 
 and to whom ? 
 
 Mr. Green. I have in mind always the merchants in the smaller 
 cities. I do not mean a city of 1,000, but 2,500 — the small towns. I 
 haven't anything here that quite touches on the subject. 
 
 The Chairman. But we want the result of your 25 years' experience 
 in the business, and here is a concrete proposition put before you. 
 We would like you to dissect it or criticize it. 
 
 Mr. Green. You put it in quite a different way to show really the* 
 injury that would come, but the fact that the mail service will bring 
 those goods, even at a 50-cent limit on 11 pounds, will be incentive, 
 enough to send to those houses for a quick delivery, which they would 
 not do very often if they had to go by freight. A great many of 
 them now are sending for goods and having them shipped by freight, . 
 but it is worth something sometimes. I am figuring from the other 
 fellow's standpoint. There is no question in my mind but what he 
 would think that if he can get those goods he would have them 
 brought right to his door by mail, even though it cost a few cents 
 more to get them. 
 
 The Chairman. Is he not entitled to that service as an American 
 citizen if it can be given to him ? 
 
 Mr. Green. I fail to understand why the Government, Senator— 
 as I said that in the beginning — should enter into competition with 
 a citizen or enter into merchandise transportation. I will put it in a 
 different way : I can not see why the Government should enter into 
 merchandise transportation, and the carrying of goods in this way is , 
 merchandise transportation. There is no question about that. - 
 
 The Chairman. But it is already in the business to the extent of 
 4 pounds. 
 
 Mr. Green. And it is being used to some extent. % 
 
 The Chairman. Now, if it is being used the presumption is that 
 some one is being benefited. 
 
 Mr. Green. They may be benefited in a general way, but just for i 
 the passing time, for a convenience. 1 
 
 The Chairman. Is it not desirable to extend conveniences to the ' 
 citizenship of our country? 
 
 Mr. Green. If it is going to interfere with the mercantile inter- 
 ests of the country, I question whether the Government should go 
 into the matter. If we do, we are going into socialism. 
 
PARCEL POST. 425 
 
 The Chairman. I do not concur with you on that at all. You 
 have to start with this, that you already have the machinery. You 
 say you would not, if you had the power, abrogate that. 
 . Mr. Green. I do not think I would. 
 
 The Chairman. Mow, I am putting to you a specific proposition 
 of increasing the scope of that machinery and giving you the limit 
 of a hypothetical concrete case, and asking you for the benefit of the 
 committee to put the criticism on that concrete case. 
 
 Mr. Green. I am trying honestly to give it to you, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. I have no doubt of that. 
 
 Mr. Green. I am trying honestly to give it to you. I am perfectly 
 satisfied that every help that the Government gets along this line of 
 postal service is just that much further into the line of carrying 
 merchandise, and if we are going into the carrying of merchandise 
 by the Government 
 
 The Chairman. We are doing it already; it is not the adoption 
 of any new principle. 
 
 Mr. Green. I will change it, then, and say, If you are going to in- 
 crease the carrying of merchandise by distributing from the large 
 centers to the country districts • 
 
 The Chairman. It benefits the country districts, otherwise it would 
 not be utilized. 
 
 Mr. Green. That is what it is for, to carry the goods from the 
 centralized points to the country districts. 
 
 The Chairman. No ; it is to give better service to the citizens of 
 the United States at less cost, if possible. 
 
 Mr. Green. But they are going to get that benefit, Senator, only 
 as they purchase their goods away from home. 
 
 The Chairman. Why? 
 
 Mr. Green. That is your idea. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, don't quote my idea; I want yours. Mine 
 will come later. 
 
 _ Mr. Green. All I can say on the question at issue at the present 
 time is that — as I said in the very first sentence that I spoke — it is 
 the incentive to take away the money from one place and put it in 
 another, and the 50-cent rate, while it can not be used as extensively 
 as the 25-cent rate, it would be just that much more added to what is 
 now done. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose you had a general rate, and then you had 
 a zone rate for rural free delivery of just 50 per cent of what the 
 general rate was ; that would be an advantage from your viewpoint, 
 would it not, to the residents on the rural delivery routes, and the 
 barrier put up for the departmental stores in the big cities to get 
 the benefit of the improvement, would it not ? 
 
 Mr. Green. As I understand you, Senator, the idea would be that 
 the merchant living in a certain zone 
 
 The Chairman. Say, within a 36-mile radius. He would have 50 
 per cent advantage? 
 
 Mr. Green. In there any reason in the world 
 
 The Chairman. Please answer my question, instead of asking me 
 a question. I say, would not the residents on the rural delivery, 
 if they received a 50 per cent lower rate of postage than the people 
 of the country in general, get an advantage, and would not that be 
 
426 PARCEL POST. 
 
 a protection to the country storekeeper on that country route against 
 the departmental store getting that business? 
 
 Mr. Green. I can only answer you that in this way : If the customer 
 traded with the stores in that district, he might get some benefit. 
 But how long would it be before some of these large departmental 
 stores would have a store in that district themselves? 
 
 The Chairman. Why do they not do it now ? 
 
 Mr. Green. There is no object. 
 
 The Chairman. Why would there be any more object under the 
 supposition that I • have advanced ? 
 
 Mr. Green. By sending their goods into that district they can 
 compete on an even basis with the stores in that circle. 
 
 The Chairman. Why can not they now? Why can they not put 
 a branch store into every town in the United States? 
 
 Mr. Green. It does not pay. 
 
 The Chairman. Would it pay any more under the other system? 
 
 Mr. Green. If they were going to lose business, it would. 
 
 The Chairman. You grant, tnen, that they might lose the busi- 
 ness, and the result would be that it would force them to put another 
 competitor in that locality. You would not be afraid of it, accord- 
 ing to your previous statement? 
 
 Mr. Green. I am a little different. You see, what I meant by that 
 was that there are some men that would not care if there were a 
 thousand men in the world, it would make no difference to them 
 
 The Chairman. Provided they had equal opportunities? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes; providing they had equal opportunities. 
 
 The Chairman. Would not everybody have equal opportunity 
 under this system? 
 
 Mr. Green. You mean the zone system? 
 
 The Chairman. The system stated. 
 
 Mr. Green. I question that. They might for awhile, but if they 
 were shut out there in any business way, I do not think they would 
 be. They would be there in some other way to-morrow morning. 
 
 The Chairman. That would be pretty rapid. They could not 
 cover the United States between now and to-morrow morning. 
 
 Mr. Green. They can do some very quick things sometimes. 
 
 The Chairman. Those are fears of j^ours. 
 
 Mr. Green. I hope so, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Green, will you name some of the articles you 
 think your customers would order by mail if rates were fixed as I 
 have stated in the hypothetical case ? 
 
 Senator Bryan. Did you get it clearly in your mind, Mr. Green, 
 that the rural rate would be 50 per cent of the general rate? 
 
 Mr. Green. I did not understand that. I Understood that the 
 rural rate would be 50 cents. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I was afraid you did not understand it. 
 
 The Chairman. Let me put the question in this way: Suppose 
 that a general law were enacted establishing 10 cents for the first 
 pound and 4 cents per pound for every additional pound up to 11 
 pounds weight limit, carrying anywhere within the United States 
 proper, and that on rural deliveries the rates were just 50 per cent of 
 those ; in other words, 5 cents for the first pound and 2 cents for every 
 additional pound up to 11 pounds weight limit, would not that oil- 
 
PARCEL POST. 427 
 
 ference protect absolutely the country merchant against infringe- 
 ment on his territory by the departmental stores? 
 
 Mr. Green. If such a thing could 1 be brought about, where the 
 trade could be left in just that zone for the people in that zone, it 
 might be all right, but I question now— I have said time and time 
 again, and I have found time and time again that the retail mer- 
 chants in the towns are perfectly satisfied with the conditions as - they 
 are, and they are absolutely opposed to and don't want any such a 
 system as you propose to give. 
 
 Senator Bryan. But they must have some reason for that. 
 
 The Chairman. Just say "yes" or "no" to my questions, Mr. 
 Green. You must have an opinion either one way or the other. 
 
 Mr. Green. Your question, as I understand it now, is that if a 
 general rate of 50 cents for 
 
 The Chairman. I will have the question read. 
 
 (The stenographer therefore read the question as follows:) 
 
 Suppose that a general law were enacted establishing 10 cents for the 
 first pound and 4 cents a pound for every additional pound up to 11 pounds 
 weight limit, carrying anywhere within the United States proper, and that on 
 rural deliveries the rates were just 50 per cent of those ; in other words, 5 cents 
 for the first pound and 2 cents for every additional pound up to 11 pounds 
 weight limit, would not that difference protect absolutely the country merchant 
 ^gainst infringement on his territory by the departmental stores? 
 
 Mr. Green. I do not think it would. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, your reasons, kindly. 
 
 Mr. Green. I have tried to give the reasons. The people who are 
 now buying from home will continue to buy from home, and the 
 larger amount carried for the smaller amount of money will be an 
 incentive for more of them to go away from home than now. 
 
 The Chairman. But they get twice as good a rate on the rural route 
 as they would get going off of the rural route. That would not have 
 any bearing? 
 
 Mr. Green. In a general way, no. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Now, I would like to have your reasons for that. 
 
 Mr. Green. I say again that those people who are now trading 
 away from home with conditions as they are, who, for instance, can 
 have a credit if they want to in case of sickness, can have help if 
 they want to in case of adversity, and are helped by the merchants 
 of the town ; if under these conditions a large majority of them are 
 trading out of the districts in which they live, in Chicago, for in- 
 stance, or Buffalo, or wherever it may be — if under these conditions 
 they are trading away, what would they do if they had a less rate 
 than they now have and could receive merchandise by post instead 
 of by freight ? Would not that be an incentive for these people to 
 trade away from home more than they are now doing? It would not 
 be any help to them at all. 
 
 Senator Bryan. But the same post that would bring to them from 
 a departmental store in a large city a package would bring them at 
 half the rate the same package from the local merchant, would it not ? 
 
 Mr. Green. That might be. 
 
 Senator Bryan. And would not that necessitate a departmental 
 store that desired to compete with the local merchant establishing on 
 each rural route an agency or a branch store in order to compete ? 
 
 Mr. Green. That is what I was trying to say. 
 
428 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bryan. And would not that bring about competition 
 between these large people in the centers under conditions exactly the 
 same as the local merchants now enjoy? 
 
 Mr. Green. That is what I tried to express. 
 
 Senator Bryan. And in order that a departmental store could be 
 successful as against the local merchant, would he not have to submit 
 to the" same conditions as the local merchant? Where would his 
 benefit be? You certainly do not undertake to contend that there 
 should not be competition among local merchants? 
 
 Mr. Green. No. There always has been and there always will be. 
 
 Senator Bryan. By this method you make the departmental store 
 come into the small towns and compete with the local merchants. 
 
 Mr. Green. Would it be necessary to have a store there or just 
 simply an agent? 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose he had an agent; what is the difference 
 whether he had an agent or a store ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Not very much, other than the expense; just the ex- 
 pense. There is quite a little difference whether you have an ex- 
 pensive store. 
 
 Senator Bryan. As a matter of fact, when you came here you did 
 not understand that there would be that difference in rates, that 
 distinction between a local and a general proposition? 
 
 Mr. Green. This is a new proposition to me. I have never had 
 time to think it over or how it would work out, but I am very frank 
 to say that with the rates as they are, and the vast increasing business 
 of these large stores, that is not going to help the country merchant 
 very much. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you name some of the articles you think your 
 customers would order by mail if these rates were fixed by Congress! 
 
 Mr. Green. When I am speaking now, I am speaking for the asso- 
 ciation in general. 
 
 The Chairman. You are speaking for the Ketail Grocers' Associa- 
 tion of the United States? 
 
 Mr. Green. Whose members are composed not only of retail gro- 
 cers, but dry-goods men and shoe men and a great many others in 
 the different States. I tried to tell you, if you will remember, that 
 our national association was made up in many States of general 
 merchants. 
 
 The Chairm^ n. What percentage of your 100,000 membership^ 
 then, are general merchants? I thought your designation was the 
 Retail Grocers' Association? 
 
 Mr. Green. It is a designation. 
 
 The Chairman. But only a designation? 
 
 Mr. Green. Our by-laws say " Retail Grocers' Association " and 
 " Merchants' Association." 
 
 The Chairman. Are there other associations representing other 
 branches of trade? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes; hardware, jewelers — there are other national 
 associations. 
 
 The Chairman. Than the 100,000 individuals as you represent as 
 secretary, embodied in your association ? Will you please designate 
 some of the articles which, in your opinion, your customers would 
 order by mail if the rates I have designated were established? 
 
PARCEL POST. 429 
 
 Mr. Green. ' You are talking now about this new proposition, this 
 50 per cent and 25 cents ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Green. Of course, this is a matter that I have not given any 
 consideration, but off-hand, and from my own general knowledge, I 
 would say that in regard to the grocery business there would be teas, 
 coffees, soap, spices of all kinds, extracts, and possibly canned goods, 
 although I do not know so much about canned goods. 
 . The Chairman. Canned goods are shipped mostly in boxes that 
 would weigh more than 11 pounds? 
 
 Mr. Green. Unless they were one or two; they usually come in 
 cases. They would go by themselves, if there was any amount. 
 
 The Chairman. They would go by freight? 
 
 Mr. v Green. Yes ; but there is a good general line that I have just 
 outlined to you. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think they would go by the parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Green. I think so. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you not think the difference in rates between 
 the hypothetical general parcel post and the 50 per cent reduction on 
 the rural delivery in the cases that you have mentioned, especially 
 canned goods and tea and coffee, would restrict the scope of the pur- 
 chaser to a zone country store on the rural-delivery route ? 
 
 Mr. Green. At the present time. Senator, I mentioned those things 
 because I knew of a lady who was buying them in the city of Cleve- 
 land from a mail-order house. She was getting them by freight. 
 
 The Chairman. Where does the matter you mentioned have appli- 
 cation to the hypothetical question that I have outlined ? 
 
 Mr. Green. They are not getting any advantage on the 11 pounds. 
 I think they could ship by freight nearly as cheap at the present time 
 as for the 25-cent rate, but if they got a small order and wanted it 
 quick and did not want it to lay in the cars, then they might take 
 advantage of that 25-cent rate. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the hypothetical case would not change the 
 conditions at all? 
 
 Mr. Green. I have not really had time to think of it much, but I am 
 just giving you an off-hand opinion, which is not a very good thing 
 to do. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, it has to be an opinion anyhow; it can not 
 be a demonstration. 
 
 Mr. Green. Well, this question has impressed me more than any 
 one thing I have ever had to do with in my life. The whole of the 
 United States is interested in this question, and it is one of the biggest 
 questions we have before us to-day. and whatever I do I want to do 
 the right thing. 
 
 The Chairman. The trolley lines which have been so extensively 
 installed in recent years make it easier for the residents on the out- 
 skirts of a city to reach the shopping centers and make their pur- 
 chases than formerly. 
 
 Mr. Green. Oh, yes; very much. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you on that account opposed to the extension 
 of transportation facilities ? 
 
 Mr. Green. No. sir; not bv anv means. 
 
430 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Now. why are you opposed to the extension of 
 transportation facilities in the way of an enlargement of the scope 
 of the parcel post. 
 
 Mr. Green. I really do not think, Senator, that it is a business that 
 the Government ought to go into at all. 
 
 The Chairman. Then your objections are founded principally on 
 the same fundamental principle that the Government has no right to 
 compete with private enterprise? 
 
 Mr. Green. That is only one reason. 
 
 The Chairman. What are the others? 
 
 Mr. Green. The other reason is the injury that I know will come 
 from the extension of the parcel post to the business men of the small 
 cities; that is another one. 
 
 The Chairman. No compensatory benefit to anybody? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes ; with the benefits going to the larger cities. 
 
 The Chairman. No compensatory benefits to the citizens, the cus- 
 tomers, the people? 
 
 Mr. Green. I can not think so. 
 
 The Chairman. You can not think that there are any? 
 
 Mr. Green. Not to a great extent; there may be some. I won't 
 say there are entirely none, but I think but very little. 
 
 The Chairman. Why would they use it if there were no benefits? 
 
 Mr. Green. Those who are using it now will use it if they can get 
 it for less, as 'I said. 
 
 The Chairman. Then they are being benefited if they are getting ■ 
 it for less? 
 
 Mr. Green. Well, they may be benefited individually, as I say; 
 but now we are talking about a thing that is going to benefit every- 
 body. 
 
 The Chairman." No. You are talking about a thing that is going 
 to benefit the greatest number. We started, you and I, with the as- 
 sumption of the greatest good to the greatest number. 
 
 Mr. Green. I will stay with you all day on that proposition, but 
 for instance, suppose the farmer is benefited fqr the time being by 
 getting his stuff on a 25-cent basis ; now, he is going to use the parcel 
 post for all there is in it; he is going to send to Chicago, and if you 
 take away from the business men of those centers their own trade 
 what is going to haiopen ? 
 
 The Chairman. Why will he send to Chicago when he can get it 
 cheaper at the country stores? He will not do it as a matter of 
 altrusim. j 
 
 Mr. Green. I will ask you why he does it now ? 
 
 The Chairman. Can he? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes, sir. I saw a bill from Wimore, Nebr. 
 
 The Chairman. Why didn't you educate him ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Educate who? 
 
 The Chairman. The farmer, and demonstrate to him that you can ( 
 deliver to him cheaper than the departmental store. Why isn't that 
 a function of your organization? 
 
 Mr. Green. It is. Within the last three or four months, with the 
 aid of the National Hardware Association, we are sending out litera- 
 ture into the country explaining our side of the proposition, and 1 , 
 haven't any doubt that inside of a year, the farmer himself will be 
 educated to the fact, that he will know. The education would not be 
 
PARCEL POST. 431 
 
 all on one side ; the catalogue won't have all fhe say, but we will have 
 some of the say. I will admit that we may have been a little negli- 
 gent on those points ourselves ; I realize that ; but we are now waking 
 up when it is almost too late, and we are sending out literature and 
 papers to the farmers, so that they will get the other side of the 
 story, but I have been in doubt if this thing can be laid over until 
 such time as we can get these other people educated. 
 
 The Chairman. What people? 
 
 Mr. Green. Well, the legislation ^long this line ; there would not 
 be the demand there is now for it. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean for the general adoption of a parcel 
 post or .the enlargment of our present scope ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes ; the enlargement of our present scope, making a 
 general parcel post, or even a rural parcel post out of it. You know 
 what I mean, just about what we haA'e now, leaving what we have 
 as it is. 
 
 The Chairman. Well would you be able to sell just as cheaply in 
 competition with the departmental store under the adoption of the 
 hypothetical rates that I have designated here, for the sake of argu- 
 ment f 
 
 Mr. Green. I was going to say, and I did say before, with the 
 people who are patronizing these stores, there are not as many of 
 -them as there used to be but their business is increasing due to the 
 fact of the country's growth. I do not think that any good will come 
 to anybody out of this hypothetical proposition, because as long as 
 these people buy away from home, that will not help the country mer- 
 chants at all. 
 
 The Chairman. But you are going to change that. You are going 
 to help them buy from the country merchants upon demonstration 
 to your customers that you can deliver cheaper than the departmental 
 store. 
 
 Mr. Green. As cheap as anybody. 
 
 The Chairman. You are not restricted in any way from going on 
 with your educational campaign and the demonstration you choose 
 to make, by the adoption of the hypothetical rate that I have desig- 
 nated; they can move on at the same time contemporaneously? 
 
 Mr. Green. We have to keep working all the time, but just as 
 soon as the Government makes it easier for them to send away 
 from home, and they keep on sending in the way they have in the 
 past, and thej r increase it, what is going to become of the country 
 stores ? 
 
 The Chairman. Now, come back to your original proposition. 
 You make the assertion that you can compete successfully with the 
 departmental store under existing conditions to-day, and you can 
 sell cheaper to your customers than the departmental store can ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Or as cheaply. 
 
 The Chairman. Or as cheap. You are in process of demonstra- 
 tion to your customers that you can do this. Where do you change 
 the condition by enlarging the scope of the present fourth-class mail 
 matter, in which you participate as well as the departmental store? 
 
 Mr. Green. You refer to me, individually? 
 
 The Chairman. I refer to your organization. 
 
 Mr. Green. Well, the organization. Of course, I live in Cleve- 
 land, a large city, where the conditions are different. 
 
432 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. I am referring to the organization. 
 
 Mr. Green. Well, now, so far as the organization is concerned, 
 those men doing business in the sparsely settled country or cities 
 don't have the privilege; that is, the mail-order houses have so 
 deluged the homes that I can not see where any good is coming to 
 anybody from this twenty-five-cent zone system. 
 
 The Chairman. I will repeat my question. You are in process 
 of demonstration to your customers that you can do this. Where 
 do you change the condition by enlarging the scope of the present 
 fourth-class mail matter, in which you participate as well as the 
 departmental store? 
 
 Mr. Green. We do not participate; that is, I think I told you 
 our people do not participate to any great extent. They may, indi- 
 vidually or occasionally, send for a package through the post office, 
 but I do not see how we are going to benefit very much by' this 
 small zone, as you call it — a thirty-six or forty mile zone. I do not 
 see where there is going to be any benefit to us. 
 
 The Chairman. But you would get half the rate the departmental 
 store has to pay? 
 
 Mr. Green. But we are not using it. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, but you would not be estopped from using 
 it if it would be a benefit to you to use it ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Well, we would only be supposing that it might be a 
 benefit, and might not. We do not know that it would be a benefit; 
 T can not see any benefit in it offhand. 
 
 The Chairman. Where would it be a detriment? You can see a 
 benefit to the departmental store, but not to yourself, although you 
 would enjoy 50 per cent of the rate the departmental store would 
 have to pay in that zone? 
 
 Mr. Green. I can not get into my head just the real substance of 
 what I ought to say here, or what you want me to say. I know 
 what you want me to say. 
 
 The Chairman. I want you to say what you think. 
 
 Mr. Green. If you will give me time to answer the question, until 
 I think it over, then L can give you an intelligent answer, but I can 
 not. do it now. 
 
 The Chairman. How soon can you give it? 
 
 Mr. Green. In a few days after I get home ; within a day or two. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the committee would be very glad indeed to 
 receive any new viewpoints that you get on the subject, or any new 
 information that you have to submit, but we can not withhold the 
 printing of our hearings indefinitely. 
 
 (Correspondence from Mr. Green giving this and other informa- 
 tion follows:) 
 
 National Association of Retail Gbocees, 
 
 Cleveland, Ohio, December 18, 1911. 
 Hon. Jonathan Bourne, Jr., 
 
 United States Senate, Washington, D. C. 
 
 Dear Senator: Am sending you inclosed statement, which I promised to 
 send, giving my. reasons as to why the parcel post would not be a benefit to 
 anyone, and estimating the number of employees connected with our asso- 
 ciation together with the amount of capital which is given, to the best of my 
 ability to find out. 1 
 
 Trusting that this may be acceptable to you, and thanking you sincerely 
 for courtesy extended, I beg to remain, 
 
 Very respectfully, yours, John A. Gbeen, 
 
 Secretary. 
 
PARCEL POST. 433 
 
 STATEMENT. 
 
 The main reasons, according to my view, for not extending the parcel post 
 Deyond its present limitations, are as follows : 
 
 First. The economic reason: It would create an enormous deficit in the 
 National Treasury for the Government to undertake to carry merchandise for 
 a flat rate of postage, charging no more for 3,000 miles than for 1 mile. It 
 would be impossible to avoid such a deficit unless the Government should 
 assume an absolute monopoly of the transportation of all merchandise that 
 could be sent by the parcel post, which is impracticable and impossible under 
 the conditions existing in this country. 
 
 It would be impossible to make a flat rate, because if a low-flat rate were 
 made the long-distance unprofitable shipments would increase very largely 
 above what they would be with a higher rate. 
 
 If a high flat rate were made the Government would do less business on 
 the profit-making short distances, as the express companies would then do it. 
 
 The Government would lose money under both conditions. 
 
 The zone system seems to be a very difficult one to put into operation where 
 there are so many large centers of distributions and the distances are so great. 
 
 The argument in the old countries, as applied to this country, is not a good 
 one, as the density in population here is less than 25 to the square mile, while 
 in Germany it is over 300 to the square mile, and in England 500 to the square 
 mile. The distances are also so much smaller as to make a comparison 
 impossible. 
 
 It is a well-known fact in distributing anything, whether it is gas, water, or 
 merchandise, the cost is varied to an enormous degree according to the density 
 of population and the distances to be covered. 
 
 Second. The commercial reason : The carrying of merchandise is a commer- 
 cial transaction, whereas the carrying of letters is not. The parcel post puts 
 an imcommercial element into a commercial transaction. The cost of the service 
 in commerce is the general basis of the charge. 
 
 If the Government should handle the pa-rcel-post business for less than the 
 express companies can properly do it under strict regulation, it would be in- 
 terfering with private business, as the carrying of merchandise is, ffu my judg- 
 ment, a commercial and not a government function. The demoralization which 
 would ensue in the extreme case would be shown by extending the same prin- 
 ciple to freight. 
 
 If the Government wishes to go into it, they should go into it in such a way 
 as not to interfere with any private enterprise. 
 
 As an illustration, it would be like the Government going into the postal 
 savings-bank business and offering 5 per cent interest on deposits. That would, 
 of course, get all the business and drive everyone else out of it. This would be 
 uncommercial and unfair, although it might be a great boon to people who put 
 in their money, and be welcomed by the general unthinking populace as a popu- 
 lar Government measure. 
 
 It would partially revolutionize the commercial system in the United States. 
 The country merchants carrying large stocks of goods, from which customers can 
 personally select their purchases, and the jobbers in all lines of trade, who in 
 turn supply the country merchants, in a large degree would be eliminated from 
 that commercial field. 
 
 Third. The social reason: The evils caused by the congestion of population 
 would be aggravated, because hundreds of millions of dollars of trade now 
 done by the country merchants in the country towns, villages, and small cities, 
 in all parts of the United States, would be transferred to the large cities where 
 the mail-order concerns are located. The loss of that trade would deplete the 
 population and destroy the stores, small banks, and general prosperity of in- 
 numerable country towns and villages which are now commercial, social, and 
 industrial centers. 
 
 It would also destroy the initiative and 'independence of thousands of hamlets 
 and their inhabitants. 
 
 It would tend to counteract the efforts on the part of the Government to 
 prevent monopolies and growth of overpowering centralized corporations. In 
 estabishing such a system the Government would be using the Postal Depart- 
 ment to encourage such corporations, and 'probably be using the Department 
 of Justice to prosecute them, all at the expense of the taxpayer. 
 
434 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Government has advocated, in a general way, through Mr. Roosevelt, a 
 greater distribution of people on the farms and in small towns. A commission 
 has already been appointed to accomplish that work. By this law the Govern- 
 ment would not only be nullifying all the work of that commission) but abso- 
 lutely producing contrary results. This congestion of population In the great 
 cities and the attendant evils are now the problems which are to be the vital 
 ones in all Republics as well as other Governments. 
 
 Fourth. The proposed rural parcel post would create the same trouble: In 
 every country town catalogue agents of mail-order concerns would establish 
 themselves and make their profit by commissions on orders secured for mail- 
 order houses, which would be shipped by freight or express to the town where 
 the rural route initiated and be distributed from there by local parcel post. 
 The country merchant would lose a great share of his trade, because he could 
 not meet the competition. 
 
 It is a curious fact of human nature that a large percentage of people seem 
 to like to buy goods away from home, even if they pay more for them. The 
 transaction is also a bad one commercially for the individual and the country. 
 This is illustrated by the thousands of people who buy millions of dollars worO) 
 of goods in Europe, on which they have to pay duty, and which they afterwards 
 find they could, in nine cases out of ten, have bought more cheaply right in 
 their own town. 
 
 The same is true of the mail-order business. The glamour of buying things in 
 a large city, Chicago or New York, attracts a great many individuals. Any- 
 thing which makes such transactions easy is going to build up* those concerns 
 against the economic, commercial, and social interests of the country. 
 
 This rural parcel post seems to be the entering wedge, the spread of which 
 would be just as surely demanded by the supposed beneficiaries as the labor 
 unions would demand special class legislation on many subjects as soon as they 
 got it on one. * 
 
 Parcels carriage by the Government through the mail service will not benefit 
 anyone, even though it might seem to do so. 
 
 In the first place, the farmer or agriculturist has a first-class general store 
 within easy access. Much different are the stores and service in these village 
 centers to-day than formerly. An assortment is carried in the new stores that 
 will contrast favorably with city stores, both as to quality and price. 
 
 The advertising done by mail-order houses through their catalogues has pos- 
 sibly created a feeling that the above is not true. Staples or known brands 
 of food goods are advertised at cost by them only to secure trade on private- 
 brand goods and other line goods. The prices quoted on staple goods are usually 
 at the cost to the retailer in the town. When the freight cost is added there 
 is little saved, and when the fact that money must be sent in advance, as well 
 as the time consumed in waiting for the goods is considered, it can readily 
 be seen that the consumer has gained nothing. Now, the Government is to 
 help the city business houses by making competition with the town business 
 men easier by carrying goods for them through the mail at a rate which will 
 further encourage the farmer to send his money to the city with the assurance 
 of quick delivery and goods brought to the door. 
 
 The rural service, such as is supposed to emanate from a certain district or 
 town center and is supposed only to be used by bona fide resident merchants, will 
 be used by outside competitors through a resident agent until the business is 
 entirely secured to the mail-order houses and the village stores are either 
 driven out entirely or, as is the case in Europe, a lot of little shops will be all 
 that is left. 
 
 Now, has anyone been benefited outside of the big city stores? Has the 
 farm increased in value on account of a delivery system of merchandise from 
 the large money centers, or, in other words, has the Government by this mer- 
 chandise-carrying and house-delivery competition, together with the transfer 
 of the money from the town center to the city, not done the very thing which 
 we are all crying out against — " helped to concentrate both money and business 
 in the hands of a few to the detriment of the country merchant and his sur- 
 rounding neighbors"? The stability of the Republic depends on the encourage- 
 ment and perpetuation of the smaller town and cities, and nothing should be 
 done to discourage or interfere with these business centers, for if we cripple 
 the business man you destroy the very life of any community. 
 
 In regard to the amount of money invested by the members of our as ^™' 
 tion throughout the United States. I would respectfully say that the 100,0UU 
 
PARCEL POST. 435 
 
 members influenced by our organization comprise the very best of the retail 
 grocery trade of the United States. 
 
 It is very hard to settle accurately the amount of money invested by the 
 100,000 retail grocers, but it is fair to assume that it will be not much less 
 than $300,000,000 in stock and fixtures. 
 
 The number of employees is very large, and we have the same difficulty in 
 arriving at the number, but am sure it will not fall short of a million men. 
 
 When taking into consideration the families of these men you will see that 
 that means a very large per cent of the entire population. 
 
 National Association of Retail Grocers of the United States. 
 John A. Geeen, Secretary. 
 
 Mr. Green. No. I do not expect you to do that. But you are 
 asking a question here that does not quite get into my mind par- 
 ticularly. I think I know what you want, but I can not answer you. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose parcel-post legislation were enacted, 
 wouldn't you favor giving the people in the rural districts a better 
 rate of postage than the general rate that might be applied to the 
 whole country ? 
 
 Mr. Green. No. Why should I? 
 
 The Chairman. You don't think, then, that it would protect you 
 against the centralization that you have described? If any legis- 
 lation were enacted, your organization would be in favor of a gen- 
 eral rate with no zone rate. Is that true ? 
 
 Mr. Green. We are not in favor of anything in the way of a 
 parcel post or increased postage; not a little bit, Senator. We are 
 absolutely opposed to it • and we would start off again with the 
 greatest good to the greatest number. Now, if you will pardon me, 
 1 will ask you why should we ? I will make this assertion and see 
 if I can put it right. I want to say that I do not understand why 
 any legislation should be passed for the benefit of any particular 
 people. We are going now to the greatest good to the greatest num- 
 ber, and if any legislation is passed, Senator, why should the rural 
 districts be considered any more than the man who . works in the 
 mill? 
 
 The Chairman. Well, suppose that the Government has at the 
 present time a machinery, which in its operation is not utilized to 
 more than 25 per cent of its peak. Don't you believe, as a taxpayer, 
 that it is to your advantage to have that machinery operate to the 
 full extent of its peak, if it can be done ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Not if it is going to interfere with any other interest. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose that in the increased efficiency of this 
 particular instrumentality of the Government you benefit a large 
 number of people and injure a comparatively small number of peo- 
 ple. You would _ be in favor of the utilization, wouldn't you, and 
 extension, even to the detriment of a small number of people ? 
 
 Mr. Green. I do not think that the legislation proposed would 
 be 
 
 The Chairman. That is not answering my _ question, Mr. Green. 
 Given my question as stated, wouldn't you be in favor of benefiting 
 the largest number of people, even if it was to the injury of a few? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes ; if it was to the injury of but a few. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, you have stated at this hearing that your 
 organization represents 100,000 membership. There are over 90,- 
 000,000 people in the United States. Now, if the ninety-odd million 
 people in the United States would be benefitted by the governmental 
 
436 PARCEL POST. 
 
 extension, you would be in favor of that, even if it injured you 
 materially ? 
 
 Mr. Green. I think I would. 
 
 The Chairman. That is true patriotism. But you can not see any 
 benefit to the 90,000,000 people? 
 
 Mr. Green. No ; I can not. 
 
 The Chairman. If there is no benefit to the 90,000,000 people, 
 they would not utilize the machinery, would they? 
 
 Mr. Green. Well, I do not know. 
 
 The Chairman. So there would not be any injury ? 
 
 Mr. Green. The chances are there would not be any if there is no 
 benefit. 
 
 The Chairman. Then there would be no injury to your 100,000? 
 
 Mr. Green. Let me say I do not understand why any legislation 
 should be passed where there is such a question. Now, our organiza- 
 tion may number 100,000. Of course, the hardware people and other 
 people 
 
 The Chairman. Are you authorized to speak for them ? 
 
 Mr. Green. No. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, let's confine ourselves to the organization 
 you represent. 
 
 Mr. Green. Supposing then we have but 100,000 people, and this 
 100,000 people having a clientele or a service to a very large ma- 
 jority of the 90,000,000 people. Now, I do not understand why legis- 
 lation should be passed that would seek to benefit those few who are 
 not in what we call our clientele or our customers. 
 
 The Chairman. How is the machinery to be utilized if there is no 
 benefit? No one is going to travel a road that is not shorter to a 
 given point simply because the road exists, are they ? 
 
 Mr. Green. No; probably not. But the entire question that is 
 being raised at the present time is, what can we do for the rural 
 patrons ; the rural people who are living in the rural communities. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a part of the question. 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes ; that seems to be the great question of the bills 
 introduced. 
 
 The Chairman. I have given you a hypothetical bill. We will 
 confine our discussion to that so as to get something concrete. 
 
 Mr. Green. I can not give you very much on a hypothetical bill, 
 but I am talking for the people in general all over the United States, 
 and the question comes if there are only 100,000 merchants in our 
 organization, why should we stand in the way of 90,000,000 people, 
 and I say that the 90,000,000 people are trading, to a large extent, 
 with our clientele or our members or merchants, and they will grow 
 up perfectly satisfied. 
 
 The Chairman. They will continue satisfied if they enjoy no 
 benefits under this enlarged scope, won't they ? 
 
 Mr. Green. We are not asking that, and, in fact, we are as ^g 
 you not to pass any legislation with the intent of benefiting us. We 
 are perfectly satisfied with the legislation we have, and yet some of 
 our people want to pass such legislation because it will benefit us. 
 We are asking them to let us alone. We are not asking for beneficial 
 legislation, Senator, and every time we say anything, they say, 
 " Well, we are trying to retain your business and give the farmer a 
 better proposition," which you can not do, I am sure. 
 
PARCEL POST. 437 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose it can be done and we give the farmer a 
 better proposition; what then? Now, don't misunderstand me. I 
 don't agree with you on your contention, but for the sake of argu- 
 ment, suppose that you benefit 9,000,000 farmers and you injure 
 100,000 retail grocers: what then? 
 
 Mr. Green. Now. that is not the end of the injury. Will you not 
 injure the farmer himself by injuring the merchant numbering among 
 my 100.000? 
 
 The Chairman. If you do, he is not going, by his action, to cooper- 
 ate in that injury. He would not utilize the increased machinery if 
 he is going to injure himself. 
 
 Mr. Green. He never realizes that, Senator, until the job is done. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, but it would be a continuous job unless the 
 law were repealed, which I assume it would be if it were demon- 
 strated to be an injury. 
 
 Mr. Green. What we are trying to do is to prevent any legislation 
 along these lines, because we have figured it out and we are perfectly 
 satisfied in our minds it is not the best for us ; it is not the best thing 
 for the people of the rural districts whom the bill is sought to 
 benefit, and I think in the near future we shall be able to show that. 
 The Denver members of our association went to the grange meeting 
 a few months ago, probably last May, and debated the question 
 before the grange as to whether it was a benefit to the farmers them- 
 selves, and it is only out of a debate of that kind that this question 
 can finally be solved ; it won't be solved by legislation. 
 
 The Chairman. It must be solved by demonstration; it can not be 
 solved in any other way, because no two people think alike. 
 
 Mr. Green. No ; we know that. Nobody knows it better than I. 
 
 The Chairman. So the only possible solution is a solution of 
 demonstration. You could go on indefinitely by people giving their 
 different views, etc., but there has to come a period ultimately of 
 action and demonstration. 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes ; that is one of the best things that I have thought 
 of, and that is to get in contact with the men who are seeking this 
 legislation and talk it out. 
 
 The Chairman. But it goes without saying that no method that 
 benefited no one but injured somebody would remain long in ex- 
 istence, doesn't it? 
 
 Mr. Green. It would seem so, and then if that is the case I would 
 say that we should he very careful. I want to put this right and 
 I don't want to insinuate or have you think that I want to cast any 
 reflections anywhere, but what I am trying to get at is this : If we are 
 not sure of our ground, if we are not sure that it is going to benefit 
 everybody, if it is not going to benefit anybody, then we had better 
 let it run. 
 
 The Chairman. No; I do not agree with you on that. I think it 
 is the duty of the legislator to take into consideration all the demon- 
 strations that exist, and different views, and interchange of ideas, 
 and then come to a determination as to what, in his judgment, is 
 warranted and will be practicable, will be effective, and then use his 
 influence in securing the enactment of such legislation, having in 
 mind, as you do, the greatest good to the greatest number with the 
 least possible injury to the individual. But he can not sit still. You 
 do not sit still in your business ? 
 
438 l'AUOEL I'OfcJX. 
 
 Mr. Green. No. 
 
 The Chairman. Your organization has been in existence ho^ 
 long? 
 
 Mr. Green. It has been in existence about 11 years. 
 
 The Chairman. And you have just come to a realization that then 
 was necessary a campaign of education to reach your customers an< 
 demonstrate to them that you can sell to them as cheap or cheaper? 
 
 Mr. Green. That is, outside of the smaller towns. 
 
 The Chairman. Why do you do it? 
 
 Mr. Green. We can see the results there. We know. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, then, assume that Congress can see the re- 
 sults and takes action. They can not have absolute proof other thai 
 proof incident to an actual trial? 
 
 Mr. Green. Of course, there are two ways of looking at every- 
 thing ; you have your opinion and we have ours, and somebody else 
 theirs ; but, as I said before, after canvassing the ground thoroughly, 
 carefully, conscientiously, and. without being biased in any opinion 
 whatever, from the broadest possible standpoint, and without care or 
 thought of the cost, I am perfectly satisfied, and our officers are per- 
 fectly satisfied, that the country merchant will not be benefited ; that 
 the farmer himself will not be benefited eventually in sending his 
 money away from his home to the largest centers of civilization. 
 Now, we have come to the conclusion after a careful thought of the 
 subject. We may seem to be stubbornly fighting this mail proposi- 
 tion, but we are not. Our opinion has been arrived at after careful 
 thought and consideration of everybody's interests, and not the con- 
 sideration of one individual. 
 
 The Chairman. That is your conclusion ? 
 
 Mr. Green. That is my conclusion, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the committee will be very glad to have and 
 consider your conclusions and give weight to the experience that you 
 have had in the matter and consider that in conjunction with other 
 people's conclusions also. That is our duty. 
 
 Mr. Green. That is your duty, and that is all we can ask. 
 
 The Chairman. It is your opinion, that under the existing condi- 
 tions the mail-order houses utilize the freight method of transporta- 
 tion and the express companies principally, isn't it ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes. The freight more than "the express. The express 
 in the outlying towns. 
 
 The Chairman. At a parcel-post rate several times higher than the 
 average express and freight rate, would there be a tendency on their 
 part to make any sweeping change in their present methods of doing 
 business ? 
 
 Mr. Green. I do not see that there would be any incentive. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, where would the injury come to the country 
 storekeeper? 
 
 Mr. Green. The intent of the postal rate at any time is to make it 
 easier or less expensive than the service now given by the freight or 
 especially the express ? . 
 
 The Chairman. No ; not at all. The intent is to enlarge the scope of 
 our present fourth-class mail-matter law by increasing the weight and 
 decreasing the postage in a manner which the committee and Con- 
 gress in its discretion will deem to be practicable and desirable. I do 
 
PARCEL POST. 439 
 
 not think the expectation is to secure legislation which will prac- 
 tically absorb the transportation business of the country within the 
 classification and up to 11 pounds weight, but it is to utilize the 
 governmental machinery now in existence to such an extent that the 
 conditions warrant and justify. 
 
 Mr. Green. Now, I do not know. Of course we have no way of 
 knowing just how much the rural carriers are worked up to their 
 limit. I presume that is what you have reference to. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; so that the rural carrier to-day could carry 
 over 40,000 or 42,000 mail routes four times as many packages or as 
 much weight as is carried to-day. 
 
 Mr. Green. And because of that you want to make him carry 
 more? 
 
 The Chairman. I say, isn't it advisable to increase that branch of 
 the governmental business if it can be done with benefit to the com- 
 munity served and with no special injury to any particular interest? 
 
 Mr. Green. Well, I do not know. I do not know, Senator, that 
 that is the way I would put it. The rural carrier was appointed to 
 carry mail, to carry first or second class mail, as the case may be. or 
 other postal matter as is now in vogue, and because he hasn't got 
 enough to do with the present mail business I question whether the 
 Government should make legislation so that merchandise can be 
 transported by this carrier simply to make up his load. Now, I want 
 to look at that a little further, if you will permit me, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. Certainly. 
 
 Mr. Green. The rural carriers, for some reason or other, may be 
 advocating this legislation. 
 
 The Chairman. If so, it is not to my knowledge. 
 
 Mr. Green. Well, I have in my possession at home a photograph 
 that was taken at the convention hall at Milwaukee, where the rural 
 mail carriers held their convention within the last month or a few 
 months ago, and in that hall was a great big placard saying that 
 Sears, Roebuck & Co. contributed largely to the entertainment of the 
 rural mail carriers. The following Friday, Montgomery Ward & Co. 
 entertained them and banqueted them in Chicago, paying all of the 
 expense. Now, if this legislation is being brought about 
 
 The Chairman. Well, what is the use of making a lot of hypoth- 
 eses on which you have no knowledge whatever ? We would like dis- 
 tinct, concrete information and the advantage of that, Mr. Green. 
 
 Mr. Green. Well, I am looking at it from this standpoint, and I 
 will give it to you. 
 
 The Chairman. It is not innuendo that we want. We want con- 
 crete information. 
 
 Mr. Green. All right. Well, Friday they were entertained in 
 Chicago. 
 
 The Chairman. How and by whom? 
 
 Mr. Green. By Montgomery Ward. 
 
 The Chairman. Who? 
 
 Mr. Green. Delegates to the rural free delivery carriers' con- 
 vention. 
 
 The Chairman. The national convention? 
 
 Mr. Green. The national convention at Milwaukee. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, what about it ? 
 21845— vol 2—12- — 12 
 
440 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Green. Well, you do not want innuendo. But the natural 
 opinion that a man would give in regard to a matter of that kind 
 would be that the mail carriers and the mail-order houses must be 
 in more than a friendly way working for this legislation. That is 
 the conclusion that I came to. Now, I may be wrong. 
 
 The Chairman. "Working for this legislation." That is inter- 
 esting. Where did you get any evidence they are working for this 
 legislation ? 
 
 Mr. Geeen. None other than that Sears, Roebuck & Co. had this 
 card in the hall stating that they had donated so much to their 
 entertainment, and that the other people had entertained them while 
 in Chicago. Now, of course, we naturally come, looking for — well, 
 I do not want to say. 
 
 The Chairman. For a mare's nest? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes ; looking for a mare's nest. That is a good way 
 to put it. We naturally come to the conclusion that there was an 
 influence there that was being used for the benefit of one and the 
 other. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, what v.'ould be your own conclusion ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Well, my own conclusion was 
 
 The Chairman. You do your own thinking, don't you ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes; I do. My own conclusion, and that of several 
 others, was that the rural mail carriers were interested. 
 
 The Chairman. In having more business for themselves with no 
 greater compensation to them? 
 
 Mr. Green. Well, as to compensation, they have had their wages 
 raised quite a number of times since they have been in business, and 
 I presume they would look for more if they had more business ; that 
 is very natural. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that might be the case. I can not answer 
 for that. We all want to get compensation for what we believe we 
 earn in this world; that is a peculiarity of human nature. Now, 
 have you had in mind that it was the intention of the Government to 
 create a monopoly of the carriage of parcels within the classification 
 that was adopted and covered by the law, or the enlarged scope of 
 the law, or still continue as we have to-day, private competition with 
 the Government on second, third, and fourth class mail matter ? 
 
 Mr. Green. From what I heard at the last hearing before the 
 House committee a year ago — not this last one in June, but a former 
 one — I would infer from the requests made by some of the talkers 
 or speakers in favor of parcel post that they did not want the Gov- 
 ernment to have a monopoly, and an entire monopoly on the carry- 
 ing of goods up to* a certain amount, possibly, but they did not even 
 say the certain amount. 
 
 The Chairman. And, personally, you are speaking for your organi- 
 zation, so far as you can voice their sentiments ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And you believe they would be bitterly opposed 
 to a governmental monopoly of second, third, and fourth class mail 
 matter? 
 
 Mr. Green. Decidedly. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think that the same opposition exists as 
 to the enlargement of our present fourth-class mail matter, the en- 
 largement of its scope on the lines I have indicated — 10 cents for the 
 
PARCEL POST. 441 
 
 first pound and an increase of 4 cents a pound up to 11 pounds, with 
 private competition to continue from the railroad companies and 
 express companies, etc. ? 
 
 Mr. Green. "We are realty opposed to legislation of this kind, for 
 the Government carrying goods in this way, or transporting mer- 
 chandise under any consideration any further than they now have, 
 Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, you are consistent in your opposition, all 
 right. 
 
 Mr. Green. "Well, I try to be just exactly right. I try to say as 
 near what you want me to say as I can. 
 
 The Chairman. I want you to say what you think. 
 
 Mr. Green. I am trying to say just exactly what our conclusions 
 in the matter are. 
 
 The Chairman. "Well, I am free to say that I think your con- 
 clusions are based on fears, and, personally, I can not agree with a 
 good many of the conclusions that you have reached, although I do 
 not know what the committee or Congress will do. 
 
 Mr. Green. Well, if I had just given it a passing thought, or, as 
 the secretary of some organization has picked out a little here and 
 a little there, and could get up a good paper, that is one thing, but 
 I have tried to give it the largest investigation that a man in my 
 condition could give it, without trying to be biased in any possible 
 way, and after having come into contact with good, influential, 
 successful business men, as well as the country merchants, many of 
 whom I have met, and I am frank to say that after all, with all the 
 information we have, the sparsity of our country, the thickty popu- 
 lated countries abroad, the conditions in one country and the condi- 
 tions in another, and a thousand square miles in a country like Eng- 
 land and Germany, and then taking into consideration this large 
 area of the United States, I can not see why our Government wants 
 to enter into any business outside of its own functions, and I cer- 
 tainly want to deny the right of the Government to enter into com- 
 petitive commerce. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you desire a repeal of the present law? 
 
 Mr. Green. No; I am willing to let the law stay just as it is, 
 but further than that I say no. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any general statement that you wish 
 to make to the committee touching on any points that you think 
 have not been covered ? 
 
 Mr. Green. No; other than I possibly have not referred in any 
 way to the express companies, but I think that with the improved 
 authority of the Interstate Commerce Commission, that if there 
 is anything to regulate, they have the power to regulate in the way 
 of fares or tariffs, as the case may be, haven't they ? 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that matter is in the course of ascertain- 
 ment, I believe, at the present time. I think that the Interstate 
 Commerce Commission has that subject before them and is making 
 a study of the express problem. 
 
 Mr. Green. And it seems as though the entire reasons given for 
 any parcel post, or most of the reasons, at least, given, are the ex- 
 press companies, and if it is so that the Government has the right 
 to regulate the charges on parcels carried by the express companies, 
 T think that a great deal of trouble can be solved right there. 
 
442 PABCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. You think they would have a right to regulate the 
 express companies but would not have a right to regulate their own 
 machinery. You prefer for the Government to compel the express 
 companies to give much cheaper rates, which would benefit the de- 
 partmental store, according to your viewpoint, as I understand it, 
 but insist that they haven't the right, or, if they have the legal right, 
 they haven't the ethical right to utilize their own machinery and give 
 the individual served the benefit of the improvement. 
 
 Mr.' Green. I think you said that right, but there is one other state- 
 ment I want to make, Senator, that while I believe the express rates 
 are high, I do not know that that is so ; and I can not tell you, with- 
 out a thorough investigation, anything about another man's business, 
 and I would not want to. But as long as we have a commission, and 
 the commission has the right to look into these matters and report 
 and advise and reduce, if necessary, why, I think that we shall be 
 saved the excuse for the parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the committees in Congress have that mat- 
 ter under consideration and, to the best of their ability, will try to 
 solve that problem. 
 
 Mr. Green. What a happy thing it will be. 
 
 The Chairman. If they could ? 
 
 Mr. Green. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. I agree with you. We are very much obliged, 
 Mr. Green. 
 
 (Whereupon, at 2 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned to meet 
 the following day, Saturday, December 2, 1911, at 2 o'clock p. m.) 
 
SATURDAY, DECEMBER 2, 1911. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 2 o'clock p. m. 
 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), and Senator 
 Nathan P. Bryan. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. T. J. FERNLEY. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Fernley, it is necessary that you be sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Please state your age and present occupation. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. My age is 50. I am secretary of the National Hard- 
 ware Association of the United States. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you been secretary ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Seventeen years. 
 
 The Chairman. For 17 years secretary? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes. Advisory secretary of the National Wrought 
 Pipe and Fittings Association; advisory secretary of the National 
 Plumbing Supply Association; advisory secretary of the National 
 Supply and Machinery Dealers' Association; secretary -treasurer of 
 the Affiliated Association of Presidents and Secretaries of Commer- 
 cial and Trade Organizations; secretary-treasurer of the Hardware 
 Merchants and Manufacturers' Association of Philadelphia. There 
 are others, but I guess probably that will be enough. Do you want 
 any more, Senator ? 
 
 The Chairman. I would like to have them all. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Secretary of the Credit Bureau of the Tin Plate 
 and Jobbers' Association. 
 
 The Chairman. Are all those national associations? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. No, sir; the first four are. 
 
 The Chairman. Please specify which they are. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. The first four are national associations, taking in a 
 membership literally over all sections of the country. The Hard- 
 ware Merchants & Manufacturers' Association is located in Philadel- 
 phia. The credit bureau of the Tin Plate and Jobbers' Association is of 
 Philadelphia. I am also secretary of the Philadelphia Plumbing 
 Supply Association; advisory secretary of the Leather Belt Manu- 
 facturers' Association ; secretary of the Wholesale and Eetail Hard- 
 ware Joint Committee; advisory secretary of the Philadelphia 
 Wholesale House Furnishing Association. There may be one or two 
 more, but those are all I recall just now. 
 
 The Chairman. The first four you say are national? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes, sir; national associations. 
 
 The Chairman. And the remainder are local at Philadelphia ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes, sir. 
 
 443 
 
444 PAKCEL, POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Kindly state for the information of the commit- 
 tee what the membership, in round numbers, may be of the first four 
 you have mentioned? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Approximately 900 wholesale houses doing a busi- 
 ness, we estimate, on an average of about $1,000,000 apiece. 
 
 The Chairman. Per annum? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Nine hundred million dollars per annum? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Nine hundred million dollars per annum. 
 
 The Chairman. That is gross? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And what do you estimate the membership of the 
 remaining associations, the local associations, to be? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. About 200. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, in these hearings, do you wish to be under- 
 stood as representing all of these associations and presenting their 
 views, or your own views ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. I desire to present the views of the members of the 
 associations as gathered from discussions in conventions and my own 
 personal views. I would add that my personal views harmonize with 
 the views of those I represent. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you oppose er favor an increase in the scope 
 of our present parcel post as represented in the fourth-class mail 
 matter? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. We oppose an increase in the scope. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you define, for the benefit of the committee, 
 your understanding of a parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. My understanding of a -parcel post is the carrying 
 of merchandise for the people. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you oppose any and all parcel-post systems 
 or only certain specific propositions which you have investigated? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. We are opposed to any extension of the present car- 
 rying of merchandise. 
 
 The Chairman. You view with disfavor the present parcel post 
 with a weight limit of 4 pounds and a 1-cent-per-ounce postage? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. We do not, because it seems to meet a condition 
 which is not affecting commerce and is used most largely in a personal 
 way by the people. 
 
 The Chairman. Would an increase in the weight limit of 2 pounds 
 at the present rate meet with your opposition ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. I think if that were the proposition, explaining that 
 the injury to the interests I represent would be so small, it would 
 not meet with serious opposition. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose that the weight limit was increased from 
 4 to 6 pounds and the rate reduced from 1 cent an ounce to three- 
 quarters of a cent an ounce, do you imagine that that would work 
 a serious injury against the interests that you represent? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. I think it would work injury to the retail and 
 wholesale distributers of the country. Shall I enlarge ? 
 
 The Chairman. If you will, kindly. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. We find that at the present time with the 4-pound 
 limit and the 16-cents-per-pound rate, that there is a tendency on the 
 part of many in the community to send their money from their local 
 
PAECEL POST. 445 
 
 community into certain metropolises of the country, and in that way 
 it works an injury to the local merchant and indirectly to the jobbing 
 distributer. 
 
 The Chairman. You refer to the departmental stores ? 
 
 Mr. Fernlet. I refer largely to the catalogue houses. 
 
 The Chairman. The mail-order houses ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. The mail-order houses, the two largest being in 
 Chicago — Montgomery Ward & Co. and Sears, Roebuck & Co. — who 
 within recent years have built up a gigantic business and have availed 
 themselves of the present low rate of merchandise to overcome the 
 handicap of distance from the ultimate consumer. 
 
 Th& Chairman. Have you any authentic knowledge as to the per- 
 centage of business that the mail-order houses send as fourth-class 
 mail matter through the mails ? 
 
 Mr. Fernlet. I have not. I judge the Post Office Department has 
 those figures. I was in Chicago on the 27th of June, and was simply 
 amazed to see the wagons of Sears, Roebuck & Co. lined up against 
 the curb of the Chicago post office, dumping out packages down what 
 looked to me like chutes on the pavement, and I just at that time 
 wondered what would be the effect if the rate were lowered. I was 
 trying to imagine what kind of a building the Government would 
 use in Chicago to handle the merchandise that would be offered them 
 at a greatly reduced rate, but I can not give your committee an esti- 
 mate as to the percentage of their business they send out under the 
 present 4-pound limit. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you oppose a letter post as well as a parcel 
 post? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. I do not understand you, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. I say, do you oppose the letter post — that is, the 
 first-class mail matter — as well as oppose the fourth-class mail 
 matter ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Do we oppose the first-class mail? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What distinction do you make in the function as 
 between the first-class and the fourth-class mail ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Why, the carrying of first-class by the Government 
 is an absolute essential. Were it not for the Government carrying 
 our first-class mail, I can not see how we could communicate with 
 each other throughout the country. The fourth-class mail is not to 
 the same extent an essential. 
 
 The Chairman. But a convenience? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. It is a convenience ; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Who is benefited by the present fourth-class mail- 
 matter law ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. I think most largely the individual who has private 
 merchandise, private material that he wants to send from one place 
 to another. The package that the mother sends to her boy, or the 
 boy to the mother. 
 
 The Chairman. Who is injured by it? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. By that? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. I do not know that anyone is seriously injured by 
 that. 
 
446 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Do the organizations that you represent utilize 
 the fourth-class mail in any way ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. To a very limited extent, possibly the sending of 
 samples to salesmen, but not for the delivery of goods to their cus- 
 tomers. 
 
 The Chairman. What method of transportation do you utilize? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Most largely freight — the railroads. 
 
 The Chairman. What, in your opinion, is the average weight of 
 individual shipments made by your organization? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. For 32 years I was in the jobbing hardware busi- 
 ness, and the only estimate that I could give you would be on that 
 experience. 
 
 The Chairman. That will be of great value, if you will favor us 
 with the information. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. I would think that the average weight of the 
 individual shipment — I mean the order gathered by the salesman for 
 miscellaneous items assembled in the house and packed for shipment 
 to the customer — would be about 200 pounds. That would be made 
 up of many small packages. 
 
 The Chairman. What, in your judgment, would be the average 
 weight of the small individual packages which you assemble into 
 lots of, say, 200 pounds? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. As now put up by the factories, not to exceed 10 
 pounds. For instance, hatchets are packed a half a dozen in a box 
 and do not weigh to exceed 10 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. The box and all ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes, sir. Table cutlery is packed a dozen pieces in 
 a box and does not weigh to exceed a pound and a half a dozen. 
 
 The Chairman. Is any of that shipped as fourth-class mail matter? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. It is all shipped as freight ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. As freight. 
 
 The Chairman. Because it is cheaper? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you give the information to the committee 
 as to what, in your opinion, the freight per pound is on the average 
 of your business ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. My business did not extend over 250 or 300 miles 
 from Philadelphia, and the average freight rate would be about 16 
 cents per hundred. 
 
 The Chairman. Sixteen one-hundredths of a cent per pound? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Could you give the information to the committee 
 as to what, in your judgment, would be the average freight rate per 
 pound on all the business of these various associations that you 
 represent ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. No ; I would not like to venture an estimate, because 
 certain of those houses ship goods half way across the continent; 
 some of them are handling commodities that .are very valuable in 
 proportion to the weight, and on some of the commodities the rate to 
 destination amounts to more than the value of the article sold. Take, 
 for instance, an item of sash weights. The sash weight is worth 
 about $20 a ton, and the freight rate to some points of the country 
 exceeds $20 per ton. 
 
PARCEL POST. 447 
 
 The Chairman. That is, it exceeds 1 cent a pound ? 
 
 Mr. Fern ley. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you imagine that the shipper or the customer 
 would pay 8 cents or 10 cents a pound to ship that by fourth-class 
 nail if he had the opportunity when he could have it shipped by 
 freight for 1 cent a pound ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Well, he would certainly take advantage of the low- 
 ?st rate he could obtain. 
 
 The Chairman. Any business man will do that, won't he? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, in the 250-mile radius of your business 
 activity where you state the average was sixteen one-hundredths of a 
 cent per pound, if the Government enacted a parcel-post law or en- 
 larged the present scope by increasing the weight from 4 pounds to 11 
 pounds and decreasing the postage from 1 cent an ounce to say 6 cents 
 For the first 8 ounces. S cents between 8 and 12 ounces, 10 cents be- 
 tween 12 and 16 ounces, and 4 cents for every additional pound up to 
 11 pounds, making 50 cents for the 11-pound package, there is no 
 probability that you would utilize that machinery and pay 50 cents to 
 ship 11 pounds when you could ship the same weight at sixteen one- 
 hundredths of a cent a pound by freight, is there ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. There is no probability of our doing that; no. I 
 might add that the railroad companies would reach almost every 
 point in our territory overnight, so that nothing would be gained, 
 even by speed of delivery on a postal train. 
 
 The Chairman. And you would not be in any way injured, neither 
 would you be in any way benefited unless the adoption of such a law 
 vastly improved the general welfare of the country and increased the 
 business so that you would be a participant in the increased general 
 welfare ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes; if we were participants in it. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, you are a participant in society, as a member 
 of society, and must participate to the extent of your general wel- 
 fare and your entity. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Might it not be probable, Senator, that my indi- 
 vidual interest would be so adversely affected by the adoption of 
 such a system that the injury to me specifically would be much 
 greater than the benefit as one of the community ? 
 
 The Chairman. That is very true; but under the evidence thus 
 far before the committee, and under your own statements on the hy- 
 pothetical questions that are presented, I can see no injury to your 
 business, as you say you would not utilize this improved machinery, 
 because you had a better machinery on a dollar basis; namely, the 
 freight rates at sixteen one-hundredths of a cent per pound. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. So there would be no competition whatever there. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. I think that so far as you have gone we agree. Of 
 30urse, I suppose a little further along you will lead me up to the 
 general effect of this on other people. Otherwise, I would like to 
 make my answer now. 
 
 The Chairman. We will be very glad to receive it now, Mr. Fern- 
 ley. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. The plan that you have outlined in your ques- 
 tion 
 
448 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 The Chairman. A hypothetical one, for the purpose of discussion. 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes. The plan, if put into effect, would place cer- 
 tain parties in competition with me at a greater distance from my 
 base of operations and take from me the enjoyment of my relations 
 which I now have with the trade in my vicinity. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you demonstrate that concretely on the con- 
 crete hypothetical law which I have presented? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Well, I will try to. I will produce a page, No. 
 1211 of a catalogue of Sears, Koebuck & Co., catalogue 123. Shown 
 on that page is a wrench which is offered to the consumer at 40 
 cents. I am in a position now to compete with this house of Sears, 
 Roebuck & Co. by selling that wrench to the country dealer at about 
 $4.20 a dozen. When the country dealer pays his freight from the 
 wholesale house that wrench costs him approximately 36 or 37 cents. 
 If the consumer has to buy that wrench in Chicago at 40 cents and 
 pay the charges of transportation over the usual and ordinary 
 
 methods 
 
 The Chairman. Freight? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Freight. And the incident delay coming by itself, 
 it will cost him a price which will remove the obstacle created by the 
 competition of that concern. If, however, the Government will pick 
 up that wrench in Chicago and carry it to the consumer located 1,000 
 
 or 1,300 miles from Chicago ■ 
 
 The Chairman. What is the weight of the wrench? 
 Mr. Fernley. I estimate about 2 or 2^ pounds. And some of the 
 rates which we hear of are not those that you have used in your 
 hypothetical question, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the rate that we have under discussion for 
 the purpose of getting an interchange of ideas. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes. You will see at once that the Government *ill 
 be used by these people to eliminate the only handicap which these 
 people now have. 
 
 The Chairman. The weight is what? 
 Mr. Fernley. About 2£ pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, as I understand your statement, you say that 
 the purchaser can buy one of these wrenches, according to the Sears, 
 Roebuck & Co. catalogue, at 40 cents apiece in Chicago ? 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. You say that you can ship these in lots of a doien, 
 so that they reach your customer at $4.20 a dozen ? 
 Mr. Fernley. Plus some freight. 
 
 The Chairman. Plus the freight. Now, for the hypothetical plan 
 of an enlarged scope of our present parcel post, the purchaser has to 
 pay 40 cents for his wrench in Chicago and pay 18 cents postage on 
 that to receive it, which would make it net him 58 cents, whereas you 
 can deliver to the country merchant at $4.20 a dozen, or 36 or 37 cents 
 apiece delivered. I fail to see where the customer would be D^nentea 
 by sending his money to Sears, Eoebuck & Co. and paying them W 
 cents and the Government 18 cents for transportation, when he can 
 get it from the country merchant at 36 cents plus the profit that UK 
 country merchant would charge, say 25 per cent. He would then g 
 his wrench for 45 cents, the country merchant makes 25 per cent ana 
 the customer saves 13 cents by dealing with his country mercJiani, 
 instead of dealing direct with 'Sears, Roebuck & Co. and having p» 
 Government for its transportation facility. 
 
PARCEL POST. 449 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Well, Senator, really you are a little confusing in your 
 mentioning in your hypothetical question a rate which has not been 
 mentioned in the bills which I understand are now pending in Con- 
 gress. If we are correctly informed, those bills are on a basis of 11 
 pounds for a quarter, or at the rate of 2^ cents per pound. 
 
 The Chairman. There may be tens of thousands of bills before 
 Congress and only a few hundred go through. I have made a con- 
 crete hypothetical case before you to get your criticisms on that case 
 and demonstrate to the committee for the benefit of Congress where 
 the enactment of such legislation would be prejudicial to your in- 
 terest. Don't you see? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Well, we feel it would be prejudicial to have the 
 mail-order houses in Chicago brought into competition with every 
 rural store throughout the country. We have in our mind, for in- 
 stance, the book business of the country. 
 
 The Chairman.. Do you deal in them ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. No, sir. I am using it as an illustration of what 
 the Government has done by apparently subsidizing that branch of 
 the business. We feel this, that this apparent competition of the 
 catalogue houses is legitimate, and we are willing to do our best to 
 meet that competition, even though it may mean the impoverishment 
 of some of our people; but we say to you, representing the United 
 States Government, " Please leave us alone ; don't go on their side of 
 this question ; don't say to them, notwithstanding the fact that it costs 
 9 cents a pound to carry this matter at the present time, we are going 
 to offer you the service of the Government." 
 
 The Chairman. Costs 9 cents per pound for what ? 
 i.Mr. Fernley. I am informed that the figures of the Post Office 
 Department show the cost of 9 cents or upward to carry fourth-class 
 aaflil matter at the present time. If it does, we take the position that 
 it is no part of the functions of the Government to go into the mer- 
 chandise-carrying business, particularly when that system, if adopted, 
 would build up this branch of business as against the large mass o£ 
 the people that you represent, who are engaged in the distribution of 
 merchandise. 
 
 The Chairman. But, Mr. Fernley, you have failed to demonstrate 
 thus far in any way how the adoption of the hypothetical plan I 
 have presented for the purpose of discussion and argument would 
 change conditions at all, so far as the interests you represent are con- 
 cerned, starting with your statement that business will always seek 
 its cheapest method of transportation. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Very good. Now, we will take another item, Mr. 
 Senator, that is in these catalogues. Take the matter of a pocket- 
 knife. It would carry the lowest possible rate of postage. 
 
 The Chairman. Weighing how much ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. About one-eighth of a pound, I guess, the average 
 pocke'tknife weighs. It would carry the lowest possible rate of 
 postage. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, it can be shipped to-day under fourth-class 
 mail matter, can it not ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. It can at 16 cents a pound, or 1 cent an ounce. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, under the hypothetical enlargement of our 
 present fourth-class mail matter, the consumer or the purchaser would 
 nave to pay 6 cents to get that through the mail, although to-day he 
 can get it for 2 cents through the mail. 
 
450 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. I did not know that your hypothetical question in- 
 volved a rate of 6 cents for 8 ounces. 
 
 ■ The Chairman. A 6-cent minimum for 8 ounces ; but, in any event 
 if there was no fourth-class mail matter, he could, receive that as 
 first-class mail for 4 cents, at the rate of 2 cents an ounce. You would 
 not abolish your first-class mail matter, would you, in order to pro- 
 tect yourself against that apparent competition? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. I answered that originally, I would not. But the 
 one thing that appeals to us more strongly than anything else, Mr. 
 Senator, above the selfish proposition, is whether it is a part or should 
 be a part of the functions of the Government to build up this cata- 
 logue-house competition as against other lines of merchandise. A 
 friend of mine manufacturing rifles in Chicopee Falls, Mass., states 
 that under the bills proposed 
 
 The Chairman. What bills are proposed? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Well, what we have heard about, Senator, is SJJ 
 cents per jjound, 11 pounds for a quarter. I want to say to you, sir, 
 that this hypothetical question is the first intimation I have had of 
 the consideration of the rates which you have mentioned. Mr. 
 Cowles, of the Postal Progress League, so called 
 
 The Chairman. He is not a member of Congress. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. No. Mr. Cowles has stated that 11 pounds for 25 
 cents was the rate that was being now considered, I think, in the 
 Henry bill, which I believe is before Congress. 
 
 The Chairman. There is no such bill before our committee. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Have you the Lafean bill before your committee? 
 
 The Chairman. No. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. May I ask you what bills you have before the com- 
 mittee ? 
 
 The Chairman. The only bill before the committee at present is a 
 bill to enlarge the scope of our present fourth-class mail matter to the 
 extent of giving the same privileges to the American citizen that we 
 extend to foreigners and other countries through the International 
 Postal Convention — 12 cents per pound for 11 pounds limit. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. That rate is made by treaty, I believe. 
 
 The Chairman. That rate is made by the Postmaster General, by 
 and with the advice and consent of the President, in the Postal 
 Union. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. The people have had no part in the establishment of 
 those foreign rates, the people directly, as represented by Congress- 
 men and Senators? 
 
 The Chairman. Except in the power that has been delegated by 
 Congress to the Postmaster General, as I have specified. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. I was about to say that the rate that we have always 
 heard of has been on this basis of 2-j cents a pound, and this particu- 
 lar manufacturer of rifles said that he would send them at the rate 
 of 2J cents a pound to points west of the Kocky Mountains, where his 
 present freight rate Avith a 30-day delivery was 3 cents a pound. 
 
 The Chairman. So that if the rate was made not less than 5 cents 
 a pound he would not be injured, would he? _ „ 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Well, he was not speaking of being injured. He 
 was speaking of his availing himself of the rate. , 
 
 The Chairman. I mean, if he would not avail himself, nobody 
 
PAKCEL POST. 451 
 
 Mr. Fernley. He would avail himself if you established a rate of 
 3 cents a pound and would immediately discontinue sending his rifles 
 by freight. 
 
 The Chairman. Because of better service by the Government '? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Because of better service by the Government, 
 
 The Chairman. But if he had to pay 5 cents a pound, the prob- 
 abilities are the difference of 2 cents would cause him to still continue 
 sending by freight ? 
 
 • Mr. Fernley. He might and might not. The possibility is that 
 with the freight which he wishes to deliver in a hurry in -i| days at 
 San Francisco, instead of 30 days, he would in that case" pay the 
 additional charge to the Government. 
 
 The Chairman. But the freight rate you know to be 3 cents a 
 pound ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. On this particular commodity ; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. From Chicopee Falls, Mass., to the Pacific coast? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the weight of a rifle ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. They all weigh less than 11 pounds; they vary from 
 7 to 10 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. With an average weight of 8 pounds? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Probably nine. 
 
 The Chairman. He could ship one for 27 cents by freight, and it 
 would cost him 42 cents under the hypothetical case I have men- 
 tioned ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. He would ship by freight. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Or 84 cents, if you double your hypothetical figures. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. He would continue to ship by freight at 27 
 cents rather than pay 42 cents, in your judgment, would he not ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes ; I think he would. 
 - The Chairman. So he would not be injured ? 
 
 t Mr. Fernley. I am not giving that as an illustration of the injury 
 to this man. 
 : The Chairman. I stand corrected. He would not be benefited. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. No; he would not. 
 
 The Chairman. And the purchaser would not be benefited, either? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. The only party to lose by the transaction would be 
 the Government. The Government^ if they were carrying his stuff 
 for the figures placed in your hypothetical question, or less, would 
 probably be carrying that merchandise for that amount at less than 
 the expense to the Government, and what I was endeavoring to show 
 by the illustration, when I unfortunately used the word " subsidiz- 
 ing," was that the Government would be assisting to build up this 
 competition of a few people. The book business, I was about to say, 
 has been ruined. 
 
 The Chairman. If you will permit me, I want to interrupt you 
 there. Let us finish the rifle illustration. You have failed to demon- 
 strate where any of these rifles would be shipped through the mail at 
 the hypothetical prices stated; consequently the adoption of the 
 hypothetical scale will not change the existing situation one iota, so 
 far as this specific illustration you have mentioned is concerned. 
 That is true, isn't it? 
 
452 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes ; that is true, Mr. Senator, but I want to know 
 why you have built your hypothetical question on a basis of a rate 
 which does not seem to be covered by the bills you are considering, 
 Are those figures in the bill you are now considering — or the bills? 
 
 The Chairman. I will answer your question in this way: If you 
 gentlemen can fail to show any injury that would come to any of the 
 interests that you represent by the enactment of legislation similar 
 or near to the hypothetical case I have presented, I assume that Con- 
 gress would be likely to enact legislation along those lines, especially 
 if you failed, the opponents of an enlarged scope of the present 
 fourth-class mail matter or parcel-post system, to demonstrate where 
 an injury would accrue to anyone. If you will continue, please. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. I would like to use the illustration of the effect of 
 the Government carrying a certain commodity at a low price on the 
 people who are engaged in that particular industry. Now can I 
 do that? 
 
 The Chairman. With great pleasure. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Then I would like to call attention to the book- 
 publishing business which a few years ago was flourishing all over 
 the country, and I would call your attention to the fact that the Gov- 
 ernment has fixed a price for the delivery of magazines which means 
 a very large loss to the Government and the building up of the maga- 
 zine publishers' business to the great detriment of the publishers-of 
 books, so that to-day some of the figures I saw recently indicate that 
 we are the ninth or tenth in the family of nations in the book- 
 publishing business. 
 
 The Chairman. In volume of business ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. In the number of publications. Now, we fear that 
 the Government going into the carrying of merchandise for the 
 people is going to have the same effect on the merchandizing business 
 that the carrying of literature at the nominal price of 1 cent a pound 
 has had on the book business. 
 
 The Chairman. But you must predicate your position upon some 
 rate. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. The only study I have made of this proposition 
 was based on 11 pounds furnished for a quarter. 
 
 The Chairman. A general parcel post, that is, that the Government 
 would carry anywhere? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Anywhere 11 pounds for a quarter. This proposi- 
 tion involved in this hypothetical question has never been considered. 
 I have never heard of it before, and I have read lots of literature on 
 the subject. 
 
 The Chairman. And you are satisfied that the adoption of a weight 
 of 11 pounds for a quarter anywhere in the United States would pe 
 prejudicial to the interests you represent here? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Absolutely. I do not know how the matter could 
 be put more tersely than in the communication to a Member of 
 Congress of Mr. Brace Hayden, of San Francisco. I do not knw 
 whether this has come to your notice or not, but I would like to rue 
 with the committee a copy of that argument. . , 
 
 Senator Bryan. Now, does this express the argument you would 
 present to the committee ? , 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Absolutely, sir. 4 
 
PARCEL, POST. 453 
 
 Senator Bryan. Then we might as well consider this as his argu- 
 lent on his theory. 
 
 Mr. Feknlet. I would be very much pleased if this could be made 
 , part of my hearing. 
 
 The Chairman. We will be very glad to so consider it. 
 
 (The argument referred to follows:) 
 
 Parcel post — Brace Hayden, president of Dunham, Carrigan & Hayden Co , San Fran- 
 cisco, Cal. — Issued by the National hardware Association of the United States seneral 
 offices, 505 Arch Street, Philadelphia.] ' ^ eneTa ' 
 
 The following letter on parcel post was written by Mr. Brace Hayden, of 
 )uuharo, Carrigan & Hayden Co., San Francisco, to a prominent Member of the 
 ast Congress, who will have a vote in the next Congress : 
 
 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 San Francisco, August 11, 1911. 
 
 Elon. , 
 
 Washington, D. C. 
 
 Mr Dear Sir : We beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter of June 24, and 
 regret to learn that your views are quite opposite to what we hoped for, and 
 that you are in favor of a parcel-post law,- but admire your frankness in the 
 MSition you take, for open opposition is far more magnanimous than concealed 
 abstraction, and if we can not convince you that your views are contrary to the 
 best interests of your constituency, it is possible that we may present some 
 points that you may not have thought of, and to which we feel confident you 
 will give consideration. 
 
 You state that our argument (in our letter to Senator Bourne) "forgets the 
 ultimate consumer." We beg to remind you that in this assertion you are ab- 
 solutely at fault, for the whole theory and practice of mercantile business (or 
 certainly as far as our branch of it is concerned) is based upon the wants of 
 the consumer and the ability to supply those wants; how to reach this ultimate 
 consumer without waste or delay and at the lowest possible cost is the ceaseless 
 and necessary study of commercial men. To ignore this basic problem, when 
 competition is so general and keen as it has been for years and ever will be, 
 means failure in business. 
 
 There are very many who, not having given the subject any serious considera- 
 tion, entertain the belief that the retailer, or jobber, or both, as standing between 
 the manufacturer and consumer, absorb an unnecessary profit, and that by 
 bringing the manufacturer and consumer together a great saving could be ac- 
 complished, but we affirm, without fear of contradiction, and with the experi- 
 ence of over 50 years of active service, that there is no such thing as " middle- 
 man" in the sense that a profit is absorbed that could otherwise be saved; in 
 other words, speaking generally, the most economical method of distribution is 
 from the manufacturer to the jobber, then to the retailer, and then to the con- 
 sumer, and with few exceptions the great volume of merchandise is distributed 
 through these three factors or channels of business. 
 
 If the retailer, who is located in the country towns and villages, be eliminated, 
 the jpbbers or wholesalers, who are located in the large centers of distribution, 
 could not reach or supply the consumer, and therefore could not take the place 
 of the retailer. 
 
 In like manner, eliminate the jobber and the majority of the retaileis would 
 be obliged to give up business, for the reason that buying frequently and in 
 small quantities, as they do, they could not get their supplies promptly and 
 economically from the hundreds of manufacturers of different lines of goods, 
 and who would be located 1,000 to 3,000 miles away. The transportation 
 charges on small quantities would be excessive; the delay too great; the cost 
 to the manufacturer selling in such small quantities increased beyond reason; 
 the capital requisite to maintain a stock by such methods also largely increased, 
 so that, if attempted, the expenses would be so excessive that the cost to the 
 consumer would be greater than under the present method of distribution. To 
 interfere, therefore, with the present system of business by the enactment of a 
 parcel-post Jaw, with an attempt to bring the catalogue houses of the East and 
 the consumers of this coast together through the medium of the Post Office De- 
 partment with the absurdly low rate of transportation which is proposed, 
 means serious interference with the business of the retailers, if not their ruin 
 
454 PABCEL, POST. 
 
 and the upsetting of business generally, and this without any advant^euus 
 results, for a parcel post can not take the place and supply the wants of* con- 
 sumers as economically and promptly as under the present system. If the 
 Government should, in defiance of all economic and business laws, pass such a 
 bill, it would interrupt and disastrously affect the commercial interests of 
 thousands of merchants and consumers of this State. 
 
 How can the Government afford to carry merchandise at approximately 2 cents 
 per pound while second-class mail, according to Postmaster General Hitchcock's 
 report for 1909, costs 9 cents per pound and fourth-class over 12 cents per 
 pound? Why shouid the Government undertake such a burden? The Post 
 Office Department was not established for any such purpose, but for the distri- 
 bution of letters and newspapers, and through them the dissemination of knowl- 
 edge and general information. It was not for the general distribution of 
 merchandise or freight, and while it has provided for the carrying of mer- 
 chandise packages limited to 4 pounds in weight, yet the charge for such is 16 
 cents per pound, leaving a profit to the department of somewhat over 4 cents 
 per pound, and it might not be unreasonable to reduce the rate from 16 to 12 
 cents per pound. This parcel, or rather, merchandise, post is nothing but a 
 competition with railroad and express transportation. It will choke up the 
 post offices with hundreds of tons of miscellaneous merchandise, which it has not 
 the means of handling, to the detriment of the quick delivery of legitimate mail 
 matter, letters and papers, entailing upon the department a far greater loss 
 than that caused by handling second-class matter, and which for 1909 was over 
 $64,000,000, which deficiency must be met by a tax — a tax not confined to the 
 people alone who use the merchandise post, but directly or indirectly upon all. 
 What justice or equity is there in making the people who do not use this method 
 of getting their merchandise pay any portion of the expense of those who do 
 use It? With just as much justice express charges should be paid by the people 
 as a whole, for the merchandise post proposition is a measure in competition 
 with the express companies. 
 
 Merchandise now carried by mail as fourth class, limited to 4-pound packages, 
 costs the department somewhat over 12 cents per pound for the service, and yet 
 in the face of this fact it is proposed to carry and deliver 11-pound packages, 36 
 inches in length, at practically 2 cents per pound, and this to every part of the 
 country, no matter how inaccessible or at what season of the year, even in the 
 depth of winter. Anywhere there is a post office, no matter whether there is 
 rail or water communication or not; to the wilds of Modoc, Lassen, Siskiyou, 
 and Inyo Counties, miles away from any railroad, where the transportation is 
 by team or pack horse; yes, even in far-away Nome and Dawson, in Alaska. If 
 this is not paternalism gone mad, we know not how to describe it. With just 
 as much reason the Government might propose to reduce the price of merchan- 
 dise to a point below its cost as that of transportation, for transportation is a 
 part of the cost of merchandise. Why limit the reduction or control to one factor 
 alone; why not embrace both? If there is logic in one, there is in the other. 
 
 The railroad rate on boots and shoes to San Francisco, even in carload lots, is 
 $2.75 per 100 pounds, boxed ; adding for weight of case it will make the rate at 
 least 3 cents per pound. If the parcel-post rate is 25 cents for 11-pound pack- 
 ages, jobbers can get their stock by post cheaper than by rail. If you will look 
 through the Transcontinental Westbound Railroad tariff I-L, effective October 
 10 last, you will find among the dry goods list, and also many other classes of 
 goods, rates so far above those proposed for the parcel post that it will enable 
 or force jobbers to substitute the post-office route for rail, and the department 
 will then become a bureau of freight transportation. Whether such freight will 
 clog the legitimate mail delivery you can judge as well as we. Was such a result 
 as giving wholesale houses lower rates by post than they could obtain by rail, 
 even in carload lots, contemplated by the author and champions of this bill. 
 AVe doubt it, and can not believe that they have investigated it- with sufficient 
 thoroughness to realize the effect it would have upon the commercial interests, 
 particularly upon localities so far away as the Pacific coast, and where the rail 
 rates of transportation are necessarily so high as they are in this territory. 
 
 The rate proposed by this parcel-post law is so low that no private enterprise 
 can successfully compete with it, and this low rate of transportation, taken in 
 connection with catalogue houses of Chicago and other eastern cities supplying 
 the goods, will make, whether wittingly or unwittingly, a combination which no > 
 retailer on this coast can compete with ; in other words, it will destroy competi- 
 tion. The very thing which the Sherman antitrust act was enacted to preveni 
 
PARCEL POST. 455 
 
 and what the Government would punish individuals, firms, or corporations for 
 doing, they will be guilty of. Is this, then, a just measure? 
 i If the express companies are to blame for exorbitant charges, let the Inter- 
 state Commerce Commission correct them, as they have the same authority of 
 revision of express rates as they have of railroad rates, and this will simplify 
 the whole matter, for it is impossible for the Post Office Department to carry 
 freight at less than a reasonable express rate, unless at a serious loss. 
 
 We inclose a few pages of Good Housekeeping Magazine for July, containing 
 an entertaining article by Mrs. Curtis, describing the English parcel post, and 
 . the facility with which packages can be sent to purchaser ; it is accompanied 
 by photos showing such deliveries by the postmen (who, by the way, seem to be 
 turned into groceries delivery clerks or porters), the bulk of some of the pack- 
 ages and the quantity of such parcels at village stations, all calculated to im- 
 press the readers with the convenience and blessing of such a system, and the 
 advantages that would accrue to us in following the English example and 
 adopting the same. Can any one in their sober senses affirm that the articles 
 of fancy, caprice, or luxury, such as the " Extravagant Lady " purchased, 
 should in this country, with our immense distances, inferior roads, inaccessible 
 localities, and sparse population in comparipon with England's condition be for- 
 warded to destination at the expense of anyone other than those to whom the 
 merchandise belongs? Why should the public generally be taxed to make good 
 the deficit to the Post Office Department that will surely result from the pas- 
 sage of the parcel-post law? 
 
 The editor of the magazine supplements Mrs. Curtis's article by urging the 
 adoption of the same parcel post in this country as in England, and asks all its 
 readers to write to their Congressmen urging its adoption. He states that 
 "the Post Office Department of England enjoys a surplus in striking contrast 
 with our deficit," the inference being that such surplus is derived from parcel 
 post. The information which we have is that the English post office has stopped 
 the publication of statements showing the cost to them of parcel post, and that 
 they really do not know what it costs, and it is, therefore, more than probable 
 that the surplus mentioned is derived from other kinds of mail matter, in the 
 same way as in our own Post Office Department ; the deficit of $64,000,000 oc- 
 casioned by the 1-cent-per-pound rate on magazines and newspapers is largely 
 offset by the $53,500,000 obtained by the revenue from letter postage at 84 cents 
 per pound, according to Postmaster General Hitchcock's report. The editor also 
 states that " parcel post would revolutionize the cumbrous, expensive methods of 
 retail business." We admit that it would revolutionize business, and further 
 affirm that the revolutionary process would be so acute as to amount to an 
 appalling disaster, the extent of which can not be foreseen. 
 
 We can not but believe that those who advocate the adoption of this English 
 system in our country, where conditions are so radically different from those 
 of England, have not given the subject the careful thought to' which it is en- 
 titled. They see only its conveniences and cheapness to them ; they do not real- 
 ize to what it will lead — the business disasters and distress, the amazing deficit, 
 the real and permanent injury to the people and property of country villages 
 and towns and their surroundings that will be sure tQ follow, and maybe there 
 are thousands, yes, millions, who do not care for such results as long as they 
 feel they will be personally benefited, but to a thoughtful man who does read 
 this magazine article and does consider the consequences of adopting parcel 
 post, we believe it will carry its own condemnation. 
 
 You state that you believe in a " reasonable law for a parcel post." There- 
 fore, the question to be decided is, what is a reasonable law? Certainly you 
 can not consider as reasonable — ■ 
 
 One that disturbs the business interests of the country so widespread that it 
 will become a disaster. 
 
 One that in the end will prove a detriment and harm to the farmers and 
 other consumers who are located near towns and villages where their supplies 
 are now purchased. 
 
 One that will cost the Post Office Department so much more than the revenue 
 obtained that a large deficit will result. 
 
 One that permits the wealthy to satisfy their whims and luxury, as evidenced 
 by the "Extravagant Lady's" purchases, at an enormous expense to the Post 
 Office Department and the public generally for transportation. 
 
 One that attempts to substitute the Post Office Department in place of ex- 
 press companies, railroad companies, or any competition with private enter- 
 
 21845— vol 2—12 13 
 
456 PARCEL POST. 
 
 prise for the transportation of freight, to the choking up of the postal service 
 and detriment of the prompt delivery of legitimate mail. 
 
 One that opposes the Sherman Antitrust Act through the combination of a 
 Government low-freight rate, with catalogue houses to supply the goods, and 
 against which no retailer can compete, thus destroying all competition by 
 giving a practical monopoly to catalogue houses. 
 
 The public generally have not and will not investigate this subject thor- 
 oughly, and such opinion as is expressed will naturally be of a personal char- 
 acter, such as the magazine article inclosed; therefore, the decision as to 
 whether such a law shall be passed or not must be left to the wisdom and 
 unbiased judgment of our Senators and Congressmen. 
 Very respectfully, 
 
 Dunham, Cakrigan & Hatdek Co. 
 Beace Hayden, 
 
 President. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it your opinion that the interests you represent 
 would in any manner be protected or benefited if the present scope of 
 fourth-class mail matter were enlarged by increasing the weight limit 
 to 11 pounds and making the postage 10 cents for the first pound and 
 4 cents for each additional pound for a general parcel post, and then 
 a zone established for rural routes, or a zone established for, say, a 
 radius of 36 miles or 50 miles from any post office, so that the sender 
 ■ could ship within that radius or on the rural routes only at rates 50 
 per cent of what the general parcel-post rate was over the country? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. We have taken a position, Senator, that the carry- 
 ing of merchandise is no part of the function of the Government; 
 that it leads up to the Government ownership of railroads ; and that 
 if you are going to carry a parcel for a citizen of the country there 
 is no reason why you should not carry the citizen himself. You take 
 the Lafean bill, which provided that the rural free-delivery carrier 
 could pick up a parcel from the farmer and carry it to the store- 
 keeper, or reverse the operation. Now, if the rural free-delivey car- 
 rier has a right to take his basket of eggs and crate of butter, why 
 should he not carry the man himself who owns that basket of eggs 
 or crate of butter? If the Government is prepared to go into the 
 ownership of railroads — and I doubt very much whether you gentle- 
 men favor that — it seems to me the whole agitation of this subject 
 is a step in that direction. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I could not agree with you on that. Per- 
 sonally, however, I am only speaking as to that. I am very much 
 opposed to the Government ownership of railroads. I feel it would 
 end in paternalism and dry rot. But my mind does not follow you 
 as to the similarity at all between the enlargement of the parcel-post 
 system, its scope and activity, and the governmental ownership of 
 railroads. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Why stop at 11 pounds? Why not make it 22, 44, 
 
 The Chairman. That might come later on. You are assuming, I 
 take it, in- your objection that it is the intention to create a govern- 
 mental monopoly of the articles carried under this enlargement of 
 the present parcel-post system? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Monopoly of the articles ? 
 
 The Chairman. Monopoly of the carriage of the articles— the 
 transportation of the articles. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes. 
 
PARCEL POST. 457 
 
 The Chairman. You are opposed fundamentally to the govern- 
 mental monopoly of that line of transportation, are you not? Does 
 the same opposition exist in your mind where private competition 
 would still exist by railroad freight rates and by express companies ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. We think it is a province of the Government to 
 open the competition and if they find the transportation companies 
 are creating a monopoly which prevents the free exchange of com- 
 modities, we feel the Government is right in stepping in and de- 
 stroying such combinations. We believe in open competition, but 
 is not the Government going into the I merchandise-carrying busi- 
 ness creating a monopoly for themselves? 
 
 The Chairman. I do not see it, if competition is still permitted. 
 If a private individual can do the business cheaper than the Gov- 
 ernment can do it, the general public are benefited to the extent of 
 their ability to get more efficient and the cheaper service, are they 
 not? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes. But now the people come before you — here 
 is a fact that seems so strange to us; here everybody comes before 
 you and says you are charging us to-day 2 cents for first-class mail 
 that costs you about sixty-five one-hundredths of a cent, and we ask 
 you to reduce that, and no serious attention is paid to it by Congress, 
 to the efforts of the whole people to get a rate on first-class mail 
 which will be commensurate with the expense of the service, and 
 yet there is so much anxiety on the part of Congress to give some 
 character of a parcel post to the people when only a few people are 
 demanding it, as against everyone who wants a 1-cent letter postage. 
 
 The Chairman. Don't you think that is rather a presumptive 
 statement for you to make? What authority have you for making 
 the broad statement that everybody is coming before Congress with 
 the demand that the first-class mail matter shall le reduced, and 
 there is apparently but few coming before Congres with a demand 
 that the parcel-post system shall be increased? 
 
 Mr. Fernlet. My statement is based on the fact that I never saw 
 a man, woman, or child in the United States who did not feel — that 
 is, who expressed themselves — that the 2-cent rate on first-class mat- 
 ter was an unfair one. 
 
 The Chairman. On what do they predicate their assumption, 
 when other countries, not giving nearly as good a first-class service, 
 •according to my information, as the United States renders, have 
 relatively no cheaper rate on first-class mail matter ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Well, Mr. Senator, the conditions in other coun- 
 tries are so vastly different, as you stated a few moments ago in con- 
 nection with the density of population, the distance of carriage, etc., 
 that I do not see why we should think of looking abroad for a basis 
 of illustration. 
 
 The Chairman. If there were any innovations made in business 
 methods abroad that appealed to you upon study as being good and 
 sound, and they showed that you could adopt the same and save 
 1 or 2 per cent in your business operations, would you hesitate to 
 adopt them? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. I would not ; but as a matter of fact we find the men 
 from other countries coming to the United States to make investiga- 
 tions as to our business methods, and I do not know of a case where 
 
458 PARCEL. POST. 
 
 any business man has ever gone to Europe to find out how to do 
 business. 
 
 The Chairman. Oh, yes; there have been studies made and very 
 exhaustive ones. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. But has not the result been that the investigator 
 came back and said that Europe has nothing over America ? 
 
 The Chairman. No; T can not concur with, those conclusions. I 
 think we can study the operations of other countries with benefit to 
 our own in many particulars. I believe in an interchange of ideas, 
 and so do j'ou, I think. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes. But I have generally found that what I could 
 not get from an American citizen it was very difficult to obtain from 
 anyone else. Well, Senator, on the 1-cent letter postage matter, your 
 figures do show that sixty-five one-hundredths of 1 cent is the cost of 
 carrying" and delivering first-class mail. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean the department's figures, of course? ' 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes, sir. Now, if that is the case, is it not an injus- 
 tice on the people to charge them 2 cents, and while that is not 
 directly what we are discussing, is it not peculiar that so much of the 
 attention of Congress is directed to a parcel post, where there is a 
 divided opinion, to say the least, and no attention given to the other 
 subject which seems so important? 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I do not know where this insistent demand 
 that you are cognizant of for the reduction of first-class postage ex- 
 ists. I am not aware of it. T do not think, as chairman of this 
 committee, that I have received 100 letters, all told, in reference to 
 a reduction in the first-class postage rate. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Well, I have discussed the matter with Senator Pen- 
 rose and the Senator admits that the people are entitled to a 1-cent 
 postage on first-class mail, but states that the department needs the 
 money, and that until we can show that the revenues of the depart- 
 ment would not be materially reduced so as to make a further deficit 
 Congress can not see its way clear to seriously entertain a 1-cent 
 letter rate proposition. If I am correctly informed, that is the one 
 department of the Postal Service that is really self-supporting, or 
 that produces any revenue. 
 
 The Chairman. According to the statements issued by the Post 
 Office Department, that shows the greatest profit in the postal opera- 
 tions. It is claimed by some of the offices in the department that with 
 a proper debit to the first-class mail that the Rural Delivery Service 
 would be self-supporting, although apparently now operated at quite 
 a loss. It is difficult to make a clean line of demarcation between the 
 four branches of the postal service, because they are so correlated 
 that you can not get an absolute distinction; they are interwoven. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. I want to say that these organizations I represent for 
 years have gone on record as being in favor of a 1-cent letter postage 
 rate, and I am surprised that your committee has not received more 
 requests. 
 
 The Chairman. I presume we will have a large number later on. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. I will endeavor to assist you in getting them. 
 
 The Chairman. You have introduced here in the record a page 
 from a Sears, Roebuck & Co. catalogue. I wish to have inserted.^ 
 the record at this point the following quotations from catalogue fto. 
 
PABCEL POST. 459 
 
 believe, falls properly within the term " mail-order house " as tending 
 to give definite information on this subject and to throw light on 
 gome points in the parcel-post discussion which have heretofore been 
 touched upon only in a general and somewhat hazy way. It should 
 be borne in mind that the customer pays the delivery charges no 
 matter what the method of shipment may be : 
 
 FREIGHT SHIPMENTS. 
 
 Freight is the preferable method of shipment for all heavy bulky merchandise, 
 such as agricultural implements, household goods, furniture, groceries, hard- 
 ware, etc. If you have no agent at your shipping point freight charges must 
 be prepaid from here, and if you do not know what these freight charges will 
 amount to be sure to send enough money extra to- cover them. If you send 
 more than the amount we need to prepay the charges we will at once return 
 you any balance. If you have an agent at your station it is not necessary to 
 prepay charges; in fact, it is better not to have them prepaid, as the charges 
 are exactly the same no matter whether you pay them or we pay them. 
 
 EXPBESS SHIPMENTS. 
 
 Shipping goods by express is an absolutely safe method of transportation, and 
 is good, quick service. It is, as a rule, the most profitable method of shipping 
 goods weighing less than 20 pounds. We make separate express shipments of 
 certain light and expensive articles, such as watches, jewelry, and high priced 
 revolvers. When they are ordered shipped with the miscellaneous freight or 
 express order we send them by what is called solid express, in a package by 
 themselves, for greater safety. 
 
 MAIL SHIPMENTS. 
 
 On all orders to be shipped by mail we require the full amount of cash with 
 the order, together with sufficient money extra to pay postage. If you want 
 goods shipped by injured mail inclose insurance fee. If you want the package 
 shipped by registered mail inclose the registration fee. Open-mail shipments 
 are forwarded at customer's risk. The Government is not liable for packages 
 lost shipped by open mail. Watches, jewelry, and other valuable merchandise 
 of light weight make profitable mail shipments, and if you are not ordering 
 other goods at the same time it is most economical to have such goods sent by 
 mail. Don't order shipped by mail articles of small value and considerable 
 weight, as the postage in many cases would be more than the value of the goods. 
 
 Now, after listening to the foregoing and in the light of your 
 present knowledge of the subject of parcel post, do you agree or 
 disagree with those who think or claim to think that the adoption of 
 a general parcel post would mean the wiping out of the country 
 merchant and the abandonment of many rural settlements ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. I do. 
 
 The Chairman. On what theory ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. On the theory that the Government is removing one 
 of the serious handicaps that these people have, by carrying quickly 
 and cheaply their merchandise to the consumer. Two years ago I 
 was at a summer resort, where a little girl was engaged as a nurse, 
 and everything that girl had on was purchased from a catalogue 
 house in Chicago, and that money otherwise would have been spent 
 at the country store. Now that relationship existed between the 
 farmer and the catalogue house in Chicago notwithstanding the fact 
 that there were country stores which took the output of her father's 
 farm, and yet the attractiveness of these catalogues induced the 
 father to buy in Chicago. Now, I said: "Do you buy frequently?" 
 She said : " No ; we make up an order once or twice a year, and get 
 
460 PAK.CEL- POST. 
 
 it by freight." I said: "Why don't you buy more frequently?" 
 She replied : " The express charges are so high ; that is the reason we 
 do not buy more frequently." Now, that is the handicap that the 
 Government proposes to largely eliminate by stepping in and carry- 
 ing the stuff for these people at largely reduced rates. 
 
 The Chairman. But not in competition with the freight rates. 
 Wouldn't they still ship by freight if they could ship cheaper by 
 freight ? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes; and the large shipments would come by 
 freight, but the small shipments will be carried by the Government, 
 and to that extent the Government will build up this particular'! 
 branch of business. 
 
 The Chairman. Isn't it the policy of the mail-order houses to en- 
 courage all orders by freight, where possible, rather than by ex- 
 press ; where not possible by freight, or not as economical, by express, 
 and by the Government operations last? 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Yes. But what will be their attitude when you re- 
 duce your rate? 
 
 The Chairman. Until your rate comes down to a competitive rate 
 with the freight it will be by freight shipments, because of this 
 reason: That large shipments mean greater sales to the departmental 
 store and because it encourages their customers to act as their agents 
 in drumming up orders with their neighbors in order to avail them- 
 selves of the freight rate and get the goods cheaper. That is the 
 competitive business with the country merchant which the parcel 
 post has no bearing upon, to my mind, at all. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. How about the smaller shipments? 
 
 The Chairman. But their policy is not to encourage small ship- 
 ments. The policy is to encourage large shipments, for the reason 
 I have stated, that the customer becomes an agent for them to get, 
 more business, by the adoption of that policy ; and that, in my judg? . 
 ment, has been one of the prime factors in the science of the de- 
 partmental or mail-order house in conjunction with the system of • 
 organization and routing of their business. It is simply the execu- 
 tive ability which is the basis of all success in any line of business. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Am I to infer from your question, Mr. Chairman, 
 that you believe it is a part of the functions of the Government to go 
 into the merchandise-carrying business? 
 
 The Chairman. I believe that it is one of the functions of the 
 Government to give the American people the very best service they 
 can in the way of utilization of governmental machinery in exist- 
 ence. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Carrying their merchandise for them? 
 
 The Chairman. They carry it to-day. ■■.'<". 
 
 Mr. Fernley. The merchandise itself or their persons? 
 
 The Chairman. No. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Why draw the line? 
 
 The Chairman. Because you have a machinery already in opera- 
 tion for the carrying of merchandise, as included in the fourth-class 
 mail matter, and you have not for the carrying of persons, and 1 
 can see no possibility of paternalism by the enlargement of the scope 
 of that machinery to the extent that I have indicated in my hypo- 
 thetical case, nroviderl von rln not, mnlre n mnnonolv of it; I am bit- 
 
PARCEL POST. 461 
 
 am not opposed to the utilization of the governmental machinery, 
 and one particular portion of it, making up a waste that exists now. 
 I do not believe in governmental waste any more than I believe in 
 private business waste, and to my mind the general welfare would 
 be tremendously served and very few interests injured. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Of course you have taken up the question of the im- 
 mense amount of merchandise that would be offered to the Govern- 
 ment for carriage under a reduced merchandise rate or a parcel- 
 post rate of any kind ? 
 
 The Chairman. That is a question you can only take up proble- 
 matically; utilize the demonstrations of other countries and use the 
 average tables in applying them. It is a matter of opinion and a 
 matter of judgment; demonstration by actual trial alone will only 
 be the satisfactory determination, necessarily. 
 
 Mr. Fernley. Well, I do hope, after a very full consideration of 
 the question you will take our view of it. That is all I can say. 
 
 The Chairman. I will say that I think we can be able to present 
 some new views to you, also, Mr. Fernley. I want to thank you for 
 the information you have given us. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. HARRY B. FRENCH, PRESIDENT SMITH, 
 KLINE & FRENCH CO., WHOLESALE DRUGGISTS, PHILADEL- 
 PHIA, PA. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. French, we will now be glad to hear from 
 you. 
 
 Mr. French. Mr. Senator, I should like to ask if you will permit 
 me to make a statement that will take less than 10 minutes, and, then, 
 if you have any questions to ask, I shall be glad to answer them, but 
 they may not be germane to the subject, and it will therefore save 
 you just that much of your valuable time. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. French, it will be necessary that you be sworn. 
 
 Mr. French. May I affirm ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes, you may. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly affirmed by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Kindly state your age and your present occu- 
 pation. 
 
 Mr. French. Age, 54; wholesale druggist. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you been engaged in the drug 
 business ? 
 
 Mr. French. Thirty-four years. 
 
 The Chairman. What other positions do you occupy? Do you 
 occupy any official position with any organization, Mr. French? 
 
 Mr. French. I am a director of the Philadelphia Commercial 
 Organization, the Chamber of Commerce, and the vice president of 
 the Philadelphia Drug Exchange. I would say that my notice was so 
 short I could not secure the credentials from the drug exchange, but 
 they are on record. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, in your testimony here do you represent 
 those organizations or p'resent your own views ? 
 
 Mr. French. No, sir; I represent the same organizations as Mr. 
 Fernley: 
 
 The Chairman. In an official capacity or as a member ? 
 
462 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. French. No ; not as a member. Mr. Fernley acting under his' 
 authority and under the authority of those organizations is em- 
 powered to have others represent them if he chooses. 
 
 The Chairman. So you appear as an associate of Mr. Fernley ( 
 to-day? 
 
 Mr. French. An associate ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, the committee will be very glad to hear 
 your views. 
 
 Mr. French. What I have to say is very brief, and has no bearing 
 at all on your hypothetical case, and I hesitate to take up what I 
 know is valuable time, for an argument on a parcel post that is truly 
 competitive is not in order. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee will be very glad to hear your 
 views as you are prepared to submit them. 
 
 Mr. French. They will be very short, and I wish to say they are 
 on a general line, and I will ask you for the first two or three minutes 
 to bear in mind that my statement is not based on the hypothetical 
 case you have given. ,*<■ 
 
 Possibly every point in regard to a parcel post that I may men- 
 tion has 'been already discussed before you by those who are better 
 qualified and better informed than I. There are certain general 
 eifects of the institution of a parcel post — I mean competitive parcel 
 post — however, that I should like to elaborate, but this is a personal 
 explanation, which pardon me for inserting. 
 
 The company that I represent has no financial interest in this 
 matter other than that interest that every citizen and every business* 
 has in the general welfare of the country. The opinion of our 
 officers is, however, that the introduction or a parcel post would be 
 the most injurious piece of legislation ever enacted by Congress;; 
 Permit me to say here that the argument has been that we have had 
 a parcel post in existence. I respectfully submit to the gentlemen 
 present that any such argument is fallacious. We have never had a 
 parcel post in any true sense of the word. 
 
 The Chairman. In that connnection would you kindly give your 
 definition of a parcel post? 
 
 Mr. French. The parcel post is an institution by the Government! 
 for carrying merchandise in competition with transportation com- 
 panies. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, if you will go on. 
 
 Mr. French. For that reason we esteem the matter to be one of the 
 greatest importance, and I desire to thank the chairman and mem- 
 bers of the committee for the opportunity of presenting certain 
 aspects for their consideration. 
 
 While we are of the opinion stated, yet such argument as I may 
 present to you is not intended to persuade you to one course or the 
 other, but rather to emphasize certain considerations that may possi- 
 bly be of assistance to you in arriving at a just conclusion. I will 
 say I come here with ali humbleness 01 spirit. I have tried to think 
 of this thing as a disinterested citizen, but I realize (I only) that no 
 one man has the advantages of forming coitclusions from different 
 views which are presented by men all over the country, and therefore 
 this is not a verbiage, but expressly conveys my feeling in this mat- 
 ter. The cost of the institution of a narcel nost is one of very great 
 
PAECEL POST. 463 
 
 than to state that it is reported that Great Britain no longer pub- 
 lishes separately the cost of her parcel post because of the large 
 deficit, and this notwithstanding the fact that in Great Britain the 
 packages are delivered by freight trains while it is proposed here to 
 send them by mail trains, and that the average haul in England is 
 about 40 miles against an average haul in the United States of 540 
 miles. There are, however, far more important considerations that 
 enter into this case, and it may be considered with advantage from 
 a moral, political, and social aspect. I have been very much im- 
 pressed with the exactness of the inquiry, but my next paragraph is 
 general. 
 
 Science has been applied to the arts in a practical and large way 
 only during the last two generations, the only two great inventions 
 differentiating modern Europe, until about 1850 and the anti-Chris- 
 tian era, being the invention of gunpowder and printing. Na- 
 poleon traversed Europe and northern Africa on horseback, in 
 wagons, and on foot, and his communications were sent to the most 
 distant points by couriers. The application of science to the arts 
 during the last two generations has resulted in an industrial progress 
 that is greater than has taken place during the whole history of the 
 world previous to that time and has introduced questions of the most 
 momentous importance. 
 
 During recent years we have seen in this country distributing 
 houses that do annually an individual business approximating $100,- 
 000,000. This a logical and proper development of economic con- 
 ditions. Therefore if dealers iff smaller communities sent protests 
 to your honorable body against such competition^ you would possibly 
 answer that you sympathized in their struggle for existence, but they 
 would have to adjust themselves to this competition or else suffer the 
 usual fate of the unfit. 
 
 The question, however, assumes a different aspect when, as citizens 
 of the United States, they come to you and say that : 
 
 We protest against such action by the National Government, which repre- 
 sents us and is supported by our taxes, as will result in our mortal injury. 
 We believe and we think we can prove thnt such action will be injurious to the 
 Interests of the country as a whole, but further than that, we protest on the 
 ground that we have a constitutional right to work out our own salvation, 
 and that the part of the Government is to protect rather than to injure any 
 considerable body of the community, and that no large body of the community 
 can be injured and good result to the body politic. We would respectfully 
 submit that this argument may possiblyi carry force, not only as fin economic, 
 but as a moral argument. Competent observers have declared that the insti- 
 tution of a parcel post would mean the destruction of thousands of hnmlets, 
 the lessening of activity in innumerable towns, and a cessation of growth in 
 many flourishing cities. 
 
 I would state there was an article published in a pamphlet issued 
 by_ the National Hardware Association in which an official connected 
 with one of the large distributing houses stated that if we would have 
 a parcel post such would be the result 
 
 The Chairman. That was his opinion? 
 
 Mr. French. Yes, sir; that is one. reason I feel a little abashed at 
 this point. 
 
 Such results as above indicated would be injurious to the com- 
 munity because it would weaken the influence of towns and villages 
 that are now such an important element in the intellectual and moral 
 
464 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 life of the communities in which they are placed and which centers 
 act as a stimulus to the territory in which they are situated. It has 
 also been shown by statistics that the existence of such nourishing 
 towns and villages greatly increases the value of land, even when 
 such land has not so good roads and is not so rich in agricultural 
 products as other regions not so favored. 
 
 Permit me to say there was another article by an officer of the 
 Government showing that the existence of thriving towns and vil- 
 lages greatly increased the value of land, even when the roads— 
 as I say here — are not so good and the soil is not so rich. 
 
 It necessarily follows from the operation of a parcel post that the 
 congestion of population in the cities would be greatly accelerated by 
 diverting business that legitimately belongs to retailers in the townsi 
 and small cities to the large distributing centers. 
 
 I am speaking again, and please pardon me emphasizing my point, 
 on a competitive parcel post. It would either have an effect or it 
 would not. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. French, in that connection, by " competitive 
 parcel post," you mean governmental competition with the private, 
 methods of transportation ? 
 
 Mr. French. I do not "recognize exactly private method's of trans- 
 portation. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, will you kindly elaborate in your own words 
 what you mean? - 
 
 Mr. French. I mean exactly what you say, as to transportation 
 companies under supervision of the- Government, which we have so 
 happily instituted. 
 
 The effects would be manifold. It is true that in the cities the ; 
 intellectual life is more active, but also that in cities they are more 
 prone to gusts of passion, to hasty conclusions and precipitate action. 
 The conservative force of the country is the rural and semirural 
 communities. Under the influence of the operation of a parcel post, 
 their comparative importance numerically, and therefore politically, 
 would be greatly diminished and the urban communities would re- 
 ceive an increased and disproportionate representation in the Na- 
 tional Congress. 
 
 The effect upon industry would be in the long run unfortunate for 
 the reason that such tremendous combinations of capital doing a 
 distributing business, while they begin by buying the products of 
 established manufacturers, finally, gravitate to controlling the prod- 
 ucts that they sell from the crude material to the finished product. 
 
 That is too long a subject to go into. It is illustrated by some of, 
 the cooperative purchasing societies in England. _ i 
 
 It does not require an active imagination to picture the distributing 
 business of this country being absorbed by a number of large dis- 
 tributing houses in the great cities, assisted by a paternal Government. 
 If this should be the result of unhampered economic development, 
 the community would gradually adjust itself to the changed business 
 conditions, but I would earnestly and respectfully represent to your 
 committee that to hasten such a consummation by Government, 
 paternalism is a wrong to a large section of the people, is injurious 
 to the country as a whole, and therefore should be carefully con- 
 sidered before being enacted into law. 
 
PARCEL POST. 465 
 
 A stock argument in favor of a parcel post is the gross abuses of 
 the express companies. It is a question, however, if, under the char- 
 ters of the railroads, the express companies have any legal right of 
 existence, and whether the railroads can not be compelled to institute 
 express deliveries on the ground that they are chartered to carry all 
 kinds of merchandise. However this may be, it is a fact that the 
 express companies are under the control of the Interstate Commerce 
 Commission. This body has already taken the subject into con- 
 sideration, and we may expect that in due course of time relief, will 
 be given to the community by the commission in the same way as they 
 have already given relief in regard to the transportation companies. 
 
 Finally, I would request the attention of your committee to the 
 great danger of an enormous increase in the number of governmental 
 employees which would surely follow the governmental adoption of 
 a competitive parcel post. It seems to me that we have not yet come 
 to that period of political development where it would be safe to 
 our constitution to take such action. As it is, it is a political fact 
 that the control of the enormous army of Federal employees, or the 
 influence that could be brought to bear upon them by the existing 
 Government at times, may and possibly has defeated the actual will 
 of the people. If the number of these employees is greatly increased, 
 it might render secure in power a political party whose aims and 
 whose methods were unsatisfactory to citizens generally and, indeed, 
 might retain them in power under such conditions as would threaten 
 the existence of true republican or representative government. 
 
 The only argument I have heard in favor of a parcel post is 
 that it is in line of modern progress, consonant with the advantage 
 given to their peoples by monarchical governments, and therefore 
 that, the people of this country are entitled to the same advantages. 
 The people who so argue assume that the parcel post in England 
 and in Germany is not only a convenience to those who use it, but an 
 advantage to those great nations. This point, it seems to me, has 
 never been proven, and, in fact, I do not know of any attempt that 
 has ever been made to prove that such action on the part of these 
 Governments has been advantageous to the people. 
 
 The Chairman. What, in that connection, would you consider 
 proof of satisfaction?. 
 
 Mr. French. The conditions are different in this way 
 
 The Chairman. No; what would you consider satisfactory demon- 
 stration ? 
 
 Mr. French. I want to indicate the difficulty, and I think I can 
 point out the method. The difficulty is this : In Germany the inte- 
 gral unit, the individual, has not the purchasing power of the indi- 
 vidual here in America. The methods of business are different. 
 They have only recently had department stores of any size, but if 
 they had the mail distributing houses the rate of living is too near 
 the border line between actual necessities and superfluities to permit 
 them to take advantage of the opportunities that might be offered 
 them, such as the people here would avail themselves of. Of course 
 under this circumstance it would be difficult to prove or disprove that 
 the parcel post in Germany was advantageous, because the conditions 
 are not such as to enable it to become largely operative. 
 
466 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. The fact that it continues and the fact that the 
 people are generally satisfied, would be a pretty good proof that it 
 was satisfactory at least? 
 
 Mr. French. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. No? ' 
 
 Mr. French. No, sir. The people in Germany are represented by 
 the landed classes. You, Senator, of course, are much more familiar 
 with the method of representation in Germany than I, but I know 
 sufficient of it to know that to call the Eeichstag a national repre- 
 sentative body, from our point of view, is a falsehood, that a class 
 numbering, I think, less than 500,000 people have a preponderant 
 number of representatives. 
 
 The Chairman. Have the balance of the population no representa- 
 tion in the governmental operations? 
 
 Mr. French. To a very limited extent. It is a property quali- 
 fication. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, if there were a feeling of dissatisfaction,. as 
 long as the dissatisfied element had even to a limited extent a repre ; 
 sentation, that feeling would be expressed, would it not ? 
 
 Mr. French. It certainly would be expressed and they do express 
 many subjects on which there is discontent. 
 
 The Chairman. Against their parcel post? 
 
 Mr. French. Exactly, that is the reason why I made my prelimi- 
 nary remarks, and that is, that they have not the organization there, 
 the distributing organization for taking advantage of such a parcel 
 post, and the reason they haven't is, in my opinion, that the capacity 
 of the purchasing ability of the individual is too small. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the point I want to make is, if the present 
 parcel post they enjoy is unsatisfactory to the people, there is some 
 method of ascertainment as to the dissatisfaction existing, isn't 
 there ? 
 
 Mr. French. Senator, it would be unsatisfactory providing it 
 •could operate by the method I state, but it can not operate in that 
 method, because they have never attempted this distributing agency 
 such as is here represented in the United States by various cities by 
 large aggregations of capital. Now, if that condition existed it 
 might be a different story, but it does not exist. 
 
 The Chairman. Isn't it true that the German Government, as a 
 matter of fact, fosters large business enterprises even to a greater 
 extent than we do in this country ? 
 
 Mr. French. Yes, sir; but the individual capacity of the buyer 
 has been too small to foster the peculiar and particular enterprise 
 of which I am speaking, although I would state here that the pater- 
 nal German Government charges for delivery on these packages a rate 
 that brings them in something over four million a year. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly go on? 
 
 Mr. French. Please bear in mind that the argument against a 
 parcel post is not an argument against relieving the people of any 
 burden under which they now suffer, but is a protest against the 
 governmental assumption of transportation facilities, in the inter- 
 est of a part of the community, or, in other words, a protest against 
 the entering of the Government upon a new and untried field, in- 
 flicting great injury on a large section of the community and, there- 
 
' PABCEL POST. 467 
 
 established form of government. If a parcel post is instituted, the 
 only logical opposition to the governmental administration of all 
 transportation will have been abolished, and I have no hesitation in 
 saying that, in my opinion, it would be very much better for the 
 Government to do this than, by the institution of a parcel post, as- 
 sume this responsibility in part, and, as I think, would prove to be 
 the case, at a tremendous cost to the people. Further than that, the 
 same arguments that might show why the Government should assume 
 the administration of transportation would apply to the telegraph 
 and telephone, and would inevitably precipitate the Government into 
 the control of other large public utilities. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I want to ask you one question, Mr. French. 
 You lay great stress on a competitive parcel post. I gather from 
 the trend of your remarks that you would be opposed to the Gov- 
 ernment monopolizing the carriage of parcels up to any additional 
 amount and beyond any additional amount than it now carries? 
 
 Mr. French. Yes. I am strongly opposed to the governmental 
 carrying of merchandise to any extent whatever. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Which, in your opinion, would be preferable, a 
 competitive parcel-post system or for the Government to monopolize 
 the parcel-post business ? 
 
 Mr. French. In my opinion it would be very much wiser for the 
 Government to assume direct charge and operation of all trans- 
 portation facilities in the United States, and I would strongly 
 Tecommend it. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Than to enter into a competitive parcel post? 
 
 Mr. French. Than to enter into a competitive parcel post. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You are opposed to that? 
 
 Mr. French. I am strongly opposed to it under the present po- 
 litical conditions and under the conditions of growth that we have, 
 morally and otherwise. 
 
 " The Chairman. Mr. French, the Government has, in effect, now 
 a monopoly of first-class mail matter. Are you opposed to that ? 
 
 Mr. French. No, sir. The principle, in my opinion, is totally dif- 
 ferent. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you be opposed to the Government, if it 
 saw fit, monopolizing the second-class mail matter? 
 
 Mr. French. What is second-class mail matter? 
 
 The Chairman. Periodicals and magazines, and newspapers within 
 certain limitations, placed by the Government ? 
 
 Mr. French. I would not be opposed to that so far as it concerns 
 the class of matter you refer to, and if I may be permitted I will be 
 glad to state the reason why. 
 
 The Chairman. We would be glad to have your reason. 
 
 Mr. French. The reason why I am not opposed to it is because 
 the distribution by the Government of magazines, if they charge 
 the cost of carriage, confers a great benefit upon the people of the 
 United States. Now, the whole trend of my argument is that it does 
 not confer a benefit upon the people of the United States, but re- 
 sults in actual injury to the people of the United States, because it 
 would change the natural economical development that is now taking 
 place and would hasten certain political changes, such as a conges- 
 tion of population in large cities, which has been going on for years. 
 
468 PABCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. You think the country storekeeper is a barrier 
 against that centralization in large cities? 
 
 Mr. French. Any man who travels as you have in this country, 
 and has seen the hamlets and villages and nourishing towns, will 
 realize that these places are an impetus to better things for all the 
 surrounding country. It gives them an intellectual and moral aspect. 
 
 The Chairman. Granted that may be so, but that does not answer 
 my question. You think the existence of the country storekeeper 
 in the hamlet and village is a prerequisite for the continuance of 
 the village and hamlet? 
 
 Mr. French. I do; absolutely. 
 
 The Chairman. You think that if the country storekeeper were 
 eliminated and the residents of the hamlets and villages were able to 
 get their supplies through governmental function or through private 
 enterprise, that still the existence of the country storekeeper would 
 be a prerequisite for the existence of the hamlet and village? 
 
 Mr. French. I think the existence of these merchants in the 
 smaller places is absolutely necessary, because I believe that the 
 institution of a competitive parcel post would largely wipe them out 
 and that the result would be that the farming community would be 
 largely extended and that the farms themselves, following a natural 
 economic development, would be consolidated. 
 
 The Chairman. But to wipe him out, you have to introduce and 
 substitute some other medium for the distribution of merchandise? 
 
 Mr. French. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, if you eliminate him you have to 
 substitute some other machinery to fill his present function? 
 
 Mr. French. No ; it would be largely performed by the operation 
 of the parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, if that were true — in which I do not con- 
 cur personally — would that cause the depopulation of the hamlet 
 and the village and the recentralization of the inhabitants into the 
 cities ? 
 
 Mr. French. Exactly, in my opinion. 
 
 The Chairman. Why, if you substitute an equally good medium 
 of distribution of merchandise ? I want to get your line of thought. 
 
 Mr. French. You ask me why an equally good substitute? Be- 
 cause I claim the economical effects, the introduction of an equally 
 good, perhaps more, efficacious substitute of delivery, such as a com- 
 petitive parcel post, would act disastrously. I am a fanatic on the 
 subject, so please excuse my language. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very glad to have your views. 
 
 Mr. French. It would be disastrous to the country for the reason 
 that the natural adjustment of the inhabitants of the United States 
 lo this changed economical condition that has only come into force 
 since 1850 would be arrested and changed artificially by laws on the 
 statute books into divers channels, and the results of being forced 
 into those channels would be to congest the cities and to lose in great 
 part the conservative forces of the Nation. 
 
 The Chairman. But in order to congest the cities you have to 
 remove your population from the village and hamlet and take them 
 back to the city. Now, as I understand, it is your contention that py 
 the introduction of what you term your competitive parcel post 
 _:n ___x j.1. . i.. _ J . i j _*_,. _j! i * Uo -mill move 
 
PARCEL POST. 469 
 
 back to the city. Will the rest of the population of the hamlet and 
 village move back to the city because he has moved back to the city ? 
 
 Mr. French. Yes, sir; largely they will cease to grow and after- 
 wards become diminished, very much as it is now. My own experience 
 in business is, that the business is going to be done, law or no law, 
 by large corporations, who can command the capital due to various 
 causes, which we need not discuss here. In the same way, my idea is 
 that the enactment of a parcel post would make this country largely 
 an agricultural country outside of the distributing centers. 
 
 The Chairman. Take a village of 1,000 people. How many coun- 
 try stores would probably be in that sized village ? 
 
 Mr. French. A village of 1,000 people would probably be the 
 center of a large farming community, and there would probably be 
 25 stores. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, assume that there were 25 stores in a village 
 •of a thousand people. The adoption by the Government of a com- 
 petitive parcel post, such as you have designated, would cause, in 
 your opinion, the closing of the 25 stores? 
 
 Mr. French. Not all of them. There would always be some, but 
 it would largely diminish them and reduce even those that were left 
 in importance. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, for the sake of the argument, let us suppose 
 that it closed up every one of the 25 stores. 
 
 Mr. French. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. In a village of a thousand people. Something 
 would have to be substituted in the way of service to the 975 popula- 
 tion of that village. In your opinion, the competitive parcel post 
 -would give the remaining 975 population of that village the same 
 service that they had previously before the adoption of such a parcel 
 post through the 25 storekeepers ? 
 
 Mr. French. Not entirely. There must be some stores for imme- 
 diate necessities. But my opinion is that much more than that ap- 
 pears on the surface; that the aggregation of a thousand people in 
 a hamlet or village is dependent upon the existence of those stores. 
 
 The Chairman. Why, if an equally good machinery is established 
 for those 975 to get their service? What I want to get at is why 
 would any of those 975 go to the city, given, an equally good service 
 in the way of purchasing and receiving the daily necessities ? 
 
 Mr. French. In answer to that I would say that in a village of 
 1,000 inhabitants, I would ask you how large a proportion of that 
 thousand was directly or indirectly concerned in the distributing 
 business in that village ? 
 
 The Chairman. The whale 975 would be interested in getting the 
 best possible service and the cheapest possible rates for the commo- 
 ; dities, would they not? 
 
 Mr. French. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, if you substitute your competitive parcel 
 
 Eost for the country merchant — mind you, I don't advocate that — 
 ut if you did — I am simply creating a hypothetical question to get 
 your line of thought — what would cause any one of the remaining 
 t)75 inhabitants of that hamlet to go to the larger city provided he 
 got an equally good service through another instrumentality ? 
 
 Mr. French. Certainly; if the cities are going to do twice the 
 business they are doing now, they will have to have the people. The 
 
470 PARCEL POST. 
 
 cities will offer the reward and there will be no rewards in the 
 country town or village; there would be no possibility. It is the 
 varied life of these small villages that keep men there and, perhaps 
 makes fortunes for them. ' 
 
 The Chairman. Then, in your opinion, every country hamlet and 
 village is built around a country store? 
 
 Mr. French. You have a very acute way of putting questions- 
 they are difficult to answer, except in the light of what I gather to 
 be your opinion. 
 
 The Chairman. No; my mind is open. 
 
 Mr. French. But, as a matter of fact, you have about exactly 
 stated it. The country store is the first usually in a village, except 
 possibly two or three houses. 
 
 The Chairman. It goes there before any business exists and hopes 
 to attract other people? 
 
 Mr. French. Because of the surrounding country. Then one store 
 after another is established, one house after another is built, and be- 
 cause of their varying demands in all directions, scientific, social, 
 moral, and so on, the town is built up. You gentlemen have listened 
 to me very patiently, and I am very much obliged to you, for this 
 thing to me is the most portentous that I have ever investigated. I 
 am very much interested in the development of the American people, 
 and this seems to be the most potential subject that I have investi- 
 gated. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much in accord with your views of 
 the desirability of developing the resources of the whole country as 
 rapidly . as possible, and of giving every possible inducement to the 
 people to grow out in the countiy and perform their function, in- 
 stead of centralizing in the cities. 
 
 Mr. French. May I ask you a question? 
 
 The Chairman. With pleasure. 
 
 Mr. French. Sears, Roebuck & Co., who are an example of busi- 
 ness enterprise and sagacity, and deserve all the success that has 
 come to them, are increasing their business at rates absolutely phe- 
 nomenal ; I haven't the figures with me, but I have seen them and 
 have gone over them. Now, if Sears, Roebuck & Co. can deliver 
 merchandise by a competitive parcel post that annihilates geograph- 
 ical conditions and takes away from me, seated at the base of the 
 Rocky Mountains, that preference that I should have because of my 
 situation, you are introducing an element into business that is abso- 
 lutely contrary to all business principles, and can be designated only 
 by one term, and that is by governmental " paternalism," that comes 
 in and says we will set laws of business and of regular economical > 
 development at defiance, and we will deliver merchandise at the foot 
 of the Rocky Mountains at the same price we deliver it to your next 
 door neighbor. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the question? , ., 
 
 Mr. Fkench. That is an opportunity I took while you kindly did 
 not interrupt me. < 
 
 The Chairman. I say, what is the question. _ fi , 
 
 Mr. French. There are two points in my question, and the tirs 
 is: If under ordinary economical development they make tnes 
 enormous strides, is not that a sufficient competition for those at 
 
PARCEL POST. 471 
 
 and annihilate the advantages of that distance by giving a rate that 
 is the same to the next-door neighbor as for a thousand miles, and 
 if their rate of increase is phenomenal at the present time, what may 
 we calculate will be their rate of increase under such a competitive 
 parcel post, and is such increase desirable for the people of this 
 Government, which can be obtained not by ordinary trade competi- 
 tion, but only through the Government's assistance ? 
 
 The Chairman. Your question is predicated upon the assumption 
 that the mail-order houses will receive special privileges through 
 congressional legislation? 
 
 Mr. French. As I say, your questions are somewhat difficult to 
 answer. You say " mail-order houses." No. Any aggregation of 
 capital will receive the same benefit, any business house Avill receive 
 the same benefit that has the capital to take advantage of it. 
 
 The Chairman. You believe in equal legal opportunity to all the 
 citizens of the United States, do you not? 
 
 Mr. French. I believe in the permission to the citizens of the 
 United States to adjust themselves to present modern economical 
 development, and I am resolutely opposed to the interference by the 
 Government with that economical development. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you are opposed to any legislation on the 
 part of the legislative branch of the Government? 
 ■ Mr. French. I am very strongly in favor of it, because as a result 
 of this economical development there have been such- huge aggrega- 
 tions of capital amassed that it has proven to be a menace to the 
 liberties of the people, threatens to control our environments and 
 the conditions are now so abnormal that it is absolutely necessary 
 that the Government should legislate so that the rights of the indi- 
 vidual to enter into competition for a living should be preserved, 
 and that is exactly why I am opposed to the Government stepping 
 in and saying to these men who are working hard for a living that 
 we are going to make it impossible for you to exist. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, all your argument is predicated on the 
 idea that legislation of this nature is going to eliminate the country 
 merchant. Your whole argument falls to pieces if that is not the 
 case. 
 
 Mr. French. Exactly, Senator, and I hope I am wrong. 
 
 The Chairman. I think you are, but it is a matter of opinion. 
 
 Mr. French. Yes, sir. If the country merchants can exist and 
 grow and the smaller communities can increase and flourish, even 
 then I think it is a mistake, because I do not think the time has 
 come when we should take the risk to our Government of so enor- 
 mously increasing its powers and functions, but that is entirely a 
 subsidiary question. 
 
 The Chairman. But you believe in equal legal opportunity to 
 every citizen in the United States. 
 
 Mr. French. A legal opportunity for every citizen in the United 
 States might be one of the most injurious things ever given to the 
 citizens of the United States, because the legal opportunity does not 
 mean at all that the legal opportunity is a good opportunity to give. 
 1 believe the legal right of every man in the United States should be 
 the same. 
 
 21845— vol 2—12 14 
 
472 PARCEr, post. 
 
 The Chairman. That is in different language, the way I put my 
 question. Where is the distinction? 
 
 Mr. French. The distinction is this: A competitive parcel post 
 would be a legal right for every man in the United States, but some 
 people could avail themselves of it, but a vast majority could not. 
 Therefore, it might result in great injury. 
 
 The Chairman. Why would not the vast majority have the same 
 opportunity or the same right ? 
 
 Mr. French. They have the same right but they haven't the same 
 opportunity. It takes an enormous capital to do it. Senator, I do 
 not know whether you have ever engaged in such mundane things as 
 buying goods and trying to sell them at a big price to somebody else? 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I have had some business experience. 
 
 Mr. French. But a very large aggregate of capital is necessary 
 for purchasing and supplying goods. Now, if, as I state, none of the 
 effects would follow the assisting of such a principle of distribution 
 by the Government, then it would not be injurious in the sense that 1 
 have stated in this communication. At the same time I personally 
 would be opposed to it on the ground that it would increase the func- 
 tions of the Government too largely. 
 
 The Chairman. They enjoy to-day the right to use the transporta- 
 tion companies of the country, do they not? 
 
 Mr. French. Through governmental supervision they are begin- 
 ning to do so, only beginning to do so. For years I was not able to do 
 it. I could send goods to New York and pay the freight to New 
 York and send them to St. Louis for half as much money as I could 
 send them from Philadelphia to St. Louis. 
 
 The Chairman. That, in your opinion, is being corrected by the 
 Interstate Commerce Commission? 
 
 Mr. French. Splendidly. Not all corrected, but the Government 
 is doing magnificent work. 
 
 The Chairman. Then Sears, Roebuck & Co., and other firms that 
 you have mentioned, because of their capital, busisess acumen, and 
 other reasons, are rapidly increasing their business, are they not? 
 
 Mr. French. Tremendously. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any plan that occurs to your mind by 
 which they could be regulated, or should be? 
 
 Mr. French. There should not be any necessity, so long as they 
 pursue their business in a proper manner. The establishment of a 
 concern like Sears, Roebuck & Co. is a perfectly natural develop- 
 ment; it is absolutely necessary that competitors should adjust them- 
 selves to it or else they must suffer and perish. 
 
 The Chairman. It is a case of the survival of the fittest? 
 
 Mr. French. The survival of the fittest. But, will it be by natural 
 law competition? 
 
 The Chairman. Here you advocate the Interstate Commerce Com- 
 mission regulating the transportation companies? 
 
 Mr. French. Preventing abusage. Every railroad in this country 
 is a quasi public corporation, and they have been foully untrue to 
 their responsibilities. The Government has a right because of the 
 sovereignty — so far as the States are concerned — they have conceded 
 to the railroads, to step in and protect the people to the extent of see- 
 ing that the railroads comply with their obligations. 
 
PAECEL, POST. 473 
 
 The Chairman. The obligations being to give you the same service 
 proportionately that they give Sears, Roebuck & Co. ? 
 
 Mr. French. Exactly ; that is all that we ask. 
 
 The Chairman. Then why do you object to the Government di- 
 rectly extending to you an increased opportunity, providing it is 
 equal in its scope to that extended to Sears, Eoebuck & Co. ? 
 
 Mr. French. Well, I object to it for a number of reasons. 
 
 The Chairman. You do not object to it in the matter of transpor- 
 tation by the railroads and steamboats ? 
 
 Mr. French. Oh, yes; I object to any governmental action other- 
 wise than their regulation to redress the wrongs of the railroads on 
 the public. The existence of those wrongs is due to the power of 
 aggregate capital misused by men who are not alive to their responsi- 
 bilities. 
 
 The Chairman. If I understand you, you believe the Government 
 should see to it that you and every other shipper should have an equal 
 proportional right, taking into consideration the distance and taking 
 into consideration the volume of business that Sears, Eoebuck & Co. 
 or any other large mail-order house has? 
 
 Mr. French. It is my opinion that as the Government concedes to 
 the railroads a part of its sovereignty it is their duty to see that the 
 railroads perform their part. 
 
 The Chairman. I would like an answer to my question. 
 
 Mr. French. Well, I gave my answer. 
 
 The Chairman. I would like an answer, " yes " or " no." 
 . Mr. French. It can not be answered " yes " or " no " exactly. The 
 reason I can not answer " yes " or " no " is that you draw an analogy 
 which I do not think is justified. It is the duty of the Government, 
 having conceded or granted special powers of sovereignty to the 
 transportation companies, to see that the transportation companies 
 fulfill their duties. To that extent, I answer " yes." 
 
 The Chairman. The obligation being equal service to every citizen. 
 
 Mr. French. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, if the Government saw fit to direct the 
 express companies to carry at a lesser rate than they now do and 
 directed them to give an equal rate to all, taking into account the 
 volume of business and taking into account the distance, you would 
 believe in that, wouldn't you ? 
 
 Mr. French. I would believe in it for exactly the same reasons I 
 believe the Government should regulate the railroads ; exactly on the 
 same principle. 
 
 The Chairman. But suppose that the mail was carried not by the 
 Government but by private enterprise, the same as the railroads are 
 operated to-day, and an exorbitant rate was charged by the instru- 
 mentality carrying the mail, would you believe the Interstate Com- 
 merce Commission, if it had the power, should order that private 
 instrumentality to reduce that rate and enlarge the scope ? 
 
 Mr. French. For that or any other article exactly for the same 
 reason. 
 
 The Chairman. Then I do not catch your objection to the Govern- 
 ment itself, which happens to be operating this instrumentality, 
 enlarging is scope, provided no advantage is given to any particular 
 interest, business, or particular citizen. 
 
474 PARCEL POST, 
 
 Mr. French. In answer to that I would say the first objection, the 
 only very strong one in my mind, is that it would be dangerous to 
 this Government to enter into the transportation business because of 
 its political effects. In the next place, they can not enter into that 
 business as a competitive parcel post without altering all the laws of 
 trade that have ruled ever since there has been business. 
 
 The Chairman. Your competitive parcel post. Do you mean by 
 that that the Government would adopt rates which would bring it 
 into direct competition with private instrumentalities, or such rates 
 that it would put out of business, because of a- lesser rate than private 
 enterprises' could afford to perform the service for? 
 
 Mr. French. I mean rates that would bring it into direct compe- 
 lition with existing transportation facilities. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean the same rate as is charged by the rail- 
 roads for its freight? 
 
 Mr. French. The same rates, because the Government would get a 
 service that could not be gotten by private individuals. Mind you. 
 I am speaking of a rate not based on distance ; I am not speaking 01 
 a Government rate as based on distance. Your question is almost 
 impossible to answer, because there are no private rates not usually 
 governed by economical conditions. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You have designated the railroads as a quasi pub- 
 lic corporation; the chairman has designated them as a private cor- 
 poration. 
 
 Mr. French. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose that to-day the Government carried no 
 fourth-class matter, no merchandise, at all under the postal machinery 
 and it was carried by the railroads, express companies, and interests 
 outside of the Government, and their rates were reduced 50 per 
 cent • 
 
 Mr. French. You mean the outside companies? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; in the carriage of fourth-class matter. 
 Would you be opposed to that? 
 
 Mr. French. You mean that the outside companies — not the Gov- 
 ernment, but the outside companies? 
 
 The Chairman. I tried to make a hypothetical case that the fourth- 
 class mail matter was transferred to private corporations, the Govern- 
 ment not taking it as mail matter at all, and the rates were reduced 
 50 per cent by these private corporations, the express companies, or 
 whatever they may be. You would be opposed to it, would you? 
 
 Mr. French. Oh, no, sir. But the principle is so vitally different. 
 What you propose to ask is — if you just transfer the other side and 
 make the transfer, why should there be any objection? In my mind, 
 from my point of view, the answer is very plain. The answer is that 
 the Government introduces an element into competition that is not 
 recognized in the orderly economic development. 
 
 The Chairman. Competition with whom ? 
 
 Mr. French. Competition between all of the merchants of the 
 whole country. 
 
 The Chairman. Isn't that the same element introduced when the 
 railroads lower their rates under the direction of the Interstate Com- 
 merce Commission? 
 
 Mr. French. No; it does not make any difference whether the 
 
PARCEL, POST. 475 
 
 less traffic if the rates were prohibitive, but it makes no difference, 
 because the rates wonld not be only the same to all people, but they 
 would vary according to service rendered and the distance to which 
 they were carried. I am in the wholesale drug business and we sell 
 a good many proprietary medicines, and we have lost a million dol- 
 lars worth of business within the last few years. I mean to say, 
 we were doing a million dollars worth of business more than we 
 do now. 
 
 The Chairman. Why? That is very interesting. 
 
 Mr. French. Because in the small towns the small jobber has come 
 up. Now he can buy these proprietary medicines at the same price 
 we can. 
 
 The Chairman. But you would not favor legislation prohibiting 
 the small jobber from doing business ? 
 
 Mr. French. Certainly not. Besides that, he is protected by the 
 freight. Suppose you wanted to go into the business of distribut- 
 ing as retailers. Now, take an article like belladonna root, which 
 is bought in 1, 2, 3, or 4 pound packages. It is a large, bulky ar- 
 ticle, and there is what, to your minds, might seem an absolutely 
 extortionate profit — but it actually costs nearly all that to put it up 
 and we buy it for a third of the price that they pay, and if we were 
 doing this business and had the aid of a fatherly government to carry 
 our goods to the farthest points without regard to the geographical 
 distance, we could make it impossible for those men to sell their 
 goods. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, Mr. French, we are very much obliged to 
 you for your views. They have been very interesting. 
 
 (Thereupon, at 4.30 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned to meet 
 at the call of the chairman.) 
 
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 7, 1911. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 3 :30 o'clock p. m. 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), Senator Jo- 
 seph L. Bristow, and Senator Nathan P. Bryan. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF ME. GEORGE W. ROGERS, REPRESENTING THE 
 UNITED ORDER OF COMMERCIAL TRAVELERS OF AMERICA. 
 
 The Chairman. It will be necessary that you be sworn, Mr. Kogers. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will you please state your age and present occu- 
 pation? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. My age is 57 ; I am chief clerk of the State Game and 
 Fish Commission of Minnesota; residence, St. Paul, Minn. 
 
 The Chairman. You are here in a representative capacity? 
 
 Mr. Eogers. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. I would like to get that information for the bene- 
 fit of the committee. 
 
 Mr. Rogers. I am here as the representative of the United Order 
 of Commercial Travelers of America. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you occupied that position? 
 Please state specifically what your official position is, for the infor- 
 mation of the committee. 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Well, probably the best I can state it will be in this 
 way: At the last session of the supreme council, held at Columbus, 
 Ohio, in June of this year, a resolution was passed at that time pro- 
 testing the enactment of a parcel-post law. That resolution was 
 unanimously passed by the representatives assembled in convention 
 at Columbus. Our supreme council consists of delegates from every 
 State in the Union. We have 26 grand councils, and representatives 
 from each grand council ; if I remember correctly, our representation 
 was 157, but I may be 2 or 3 out of the way, so far as the number 
 is concerned. That resolution was passed unanimously by the su- 
 preme body. The committee was appointed to go to Washington to 
 present that protest in writing before the United States Congress, 
 and I am here to present that resolution. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you the protest in writing? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Well, I have just simply the resolution. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly read it for the information of 
 the committee so they can get it in the record. 
 
 Mr, Rogers. Well, I have stated its contents verbally, and I will 
 present a copy of the resolution to the stenographer. The reason ad- 
 vanced for not wanting a parcel-post law is that we believe it will 
 be a detriment to the retail merchant, without any apparent benefit to 
 
PARCEL POST. 477 
 
 law would be for the benefit of the catalogue or mail-order houses, 
 so called, and the large departmental stores in the large cities. The 
 resolution reads as follows: 
 
 At the last annual meeting of the Supreme Council of the United Commercial 
 Travelers of America, held in Columbus, Ohio, in June, 1911, a resolution was 
 unanimously adopted protesting against, the enactment of the parcel-post bill 
 now pending before your honorable body. A resolution was also adopted that 
 a committee of one, and I was named as the one, should go to Washington and 
 personally present this protest. The resolution, as adopted by your supreme 
 body, did not specifically state that this should be done verbally or in writing, 
 but that it may become a matter of record I have decided to present it in 
 writing. 
 
 The reasons advanced for not wanting a parcel-post law is that we believe 
 it would be a detriment to the consumer, and that the only ones benefited by 
 this act would be the catalogue houses and the large department stores in the 
 large cities. 
 
 If the small merchants are forced out of business, as we believe they will 
 be if a general parcel-post law is enacted, it will gradually eliminate the com- 
 mercial traveler. This, briefly, is our reason for opposing the passage of this bill. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you demonstrate your contention, Mr. 
 Kogers ? 
 
 Mr. Kogers. No, sir ; I can not, to be honest with you. That is the 
 sentiment that has existed in our organization, and that was the 
 result of the discussion. Noav, to go into detail, in order to demon- 
 strate the facts, I am unable to do it as an individual. 
 
 The Chairman. Did the demonstrations made in the organization 
 appeal to your mind as being sound ? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. That was simply the sum and substance of the dis- 
 cussion, that it was believed it would eliminate the small merchant. 
 
 The Chairman. With no corresponding benefit to the consumer? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. With no corresponding benefit to the consumer, and 
 in that way it would naturally be a detriment to the commercial 
 travelers. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the resolution was founded entirely upon 
 a matter of opinion ? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Purely a matter of opinion. 
 
 The Chairman. Evidently without any attempted demonstration 
 as to the logic of your position, as I understand. 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Well, it is true in discussing this matter that we had 
 no figures or statistics whereby we could prove that that was true, 
 and I do not believe that anyone will prove that it is true until 
 after a bill is passed, if one is passed ; but that is what we believe will 
 be the result, that the small merchant will be eliminated, in a 
 measure at least, a result which would be to the detriment of the in- 
 terests of the United Commercial Travelers. 
 
 The Chairman. The point I want to bring out particularly there, 
 Mr. Rogers, was, that while the resolution was passed by the con- 
 vention, there was no argument made to substantiate or demonstrate 
 the fears that such legislation would result disastrously to such 
 interests. 
 
 Mr. Rogers. There were no specific examples of demonstration. 
 That was merely the unanimous opinion of the organization. 
 
 The Chairman. And in this hearing you appear before the com- 
 mittee as the representative of the organization? Giving their 
 views ? 
 
478 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Yes. sir. .; 
 
 The Chairman. In accordance with the resolution enacted? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any written statement or argument other 
 than the resolution which you submitted to the committee ? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. No, sir ; I have not. 
 
 The Chairman. In your business experience have you acquired 
 a general knowledge of the subject of transportation? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Well, I can not say that I have ; no, sir. For 27 years 
 I was selling shoes on the road, traveling for a shoe house, selling 
 them wholesale. I left the road two years ago and went into the 
 office of the shoe house for which I was traveling, but the house has 
 gone out of business now, and for that reason I took up this position 
 about two months ago that I hold at the present time. 
 
 The Chairman. In your 27 years' experience as a salesman for a 
 shoe house what was the average order that you received? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Why, my sales during the greater part of that time 
 would run from $70,000 up to $100,000, and in one year, the largest 
 I ever had, it ran $133,000. 
 
 The Chairman. I mean in regard to the number of shoes in an 
 average order that you would receive — how large an order would you 
 get from a customer on the average? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. I never averaged those orders. The sales were figured 
 up monthly. 
 
 The Chairman. On a dollar basis ? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. So many dollars ; on a monthly basis ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Couldn't you give the committee the information 
 as to the probable number of shoes you would sell to the average cus- 
 tomer? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Well, my customers would average, to be conservative, 
 from $500 to as high as $2,500 a year, and I would have from 70 to 
 110 — -I have had as high as 115 — customers on my books; that is, on 
 my route. I could not average the number of shoes per order. I 
 would see my trade at least four times, and some of them oftener. 
 
 The Chairman. Was it customary to make but one annual ship- 
 ment? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Oh, no ; we were continually making shipments. 
 
 The Chairman. What would be the average weight of these ship- 
 ments you would make? In other words, would you send a single 
 pair of shoes, send them by a box, by the dozen pair or two dozen 
 pair, or what was your ordinary method of business? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Oh, 99 per cent of our business was by freight. 
 
 The Chairman. Ninety-nine per cent ? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. It was a wholesale business ; yes, sir. Once in a while 
 we would send a single pair by express, that is true, but that hap- 
 pened very seldom. 
 
 The Chairman. What was the freight rate per hundred pounds 
 on shoes? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Well, that varied, of course, according to the distance. 
 
 The Chairman. What was your minimum and maximum rate? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. That I could not tell you, because in selling shoes the 
 question was never asked by the customer or by the house what the 
 
PAECEL POST. 479 
 
 freight rate was to the customer's place of business. That never 
 entered into the controversy whatever. I don't think during all these 
 years any customer of ours ever asked me what the rate on shoes was 
 for freight from St. Paul to the town he was doing business in. That 
 question never came up. 
 
 The Chairman. So you haven't that information ? 
 , Mr. Rogers. The selling of shoes on the road was purely a question 
 of competition with other houses and not a question of transportation 
 or a question of freight rates. 
 
 The Chairman. If you went into a town 500 miles from St. Paul, 
 would you offer to sell the shoes for delivery at that town or f . o. b. 
 St. Paul? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. F. o. b. St. Paul. 
 
 The Chairman. Then your customer would undoubtedly take into 
 consideration the freight rate which he had to pay in considering 
 business between you and your competitors ? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Our chief competitors were in our own city. While 
 we had some competitors, of course, in the New England States, the 
 Twin Cities and Chicago furnished the bulk of the shoe business of 
 the Northwest. The large percentage of the shoe business is done by 
 the houses in the Twin Cities, and Chicago has a representation up 
 there. All shoe-manufacturing houses are represented, of course, 
 more or less, but the large bulk of the shoe business in that country is 
 done by the Twin Cities and the Chicago houses. 
 
 The Chaibman. Then the zone of your operation was the territory 
 immediately adjacent to St. Paul? 
 ! Mr. Rogers. That is all. 
 
 The Chairman. It did not extend all over the United States? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Oh, no. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What would be the limit of mileage from St. Paul, 
 in a radius, within the scope of your activities? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. The territory covered by the St. Paul shoe houses 
 included Wisconsin and all the States north and west of there, includ- 
 ing Nebraska, Idaho, and Oregon. We did not go south nor east. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, then you had a western 2,000-mile radius ? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Could you give the committee any idea as to the 
 freight rate on shoes per 100 pounds from St. Paul to the coast ? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. No, sir; I could not. That question never came up 
 during all the years I was on the road — the question as to what the 
 freight rate was on shoes. 
 ' The Chairman. You say you shipped some single pairs by express ? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What expressage did you pay ? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Well, you mean per pound ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; or per package. How did you pay ? Given 
 a single pair of shoes, wrapped, what you had to pay for the delivery 
 in accordance with the distance — could you give that information to 
 the committee ? 
 
 . Mr. Rogers. I know this much with regard to that subject: We 
 did not prepay the express on any single pairs that were sold. That 
 was paid at the other end, but the maximum charge at one time was 
 35 cents on a pair of shoes. 
 
480 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the average weight? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. The weight on the average pair of shoes was about 
 2 pounds — between 2 and 3 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Wrapped? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. It would not be over three pounds? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. No, sir. They were put up in one carton, or a single 
 box. 
 
 The Chairman. Then 18 cents postage would not bring any compe- 
 tition that you do not have now through the express company? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Most of your shipments — in fact, you say 99 per 
 cent of your shipments — were made by freight? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. That is what I am satisfied in my own mind, with re- 
 gard to the aggregate amount of business that we do, is the case- 
 that 99 per cent of our business went by freight. 
 
 The Chairman. If the Government enlarged the scope of the pres- 
 ent parcel post in weight and decreased the price, provided the 
 decrease in price did not meet the freight rate, would it change your 
 existing conditions, so far as the freight rates are concerned? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. That I do not know. No, sir ; I do not know. 
 
 The Chairman. Commerce would always seek the cheapest method 
 of transportation, wouldn't it? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. I would think so. That would be the natural con- 
 clusion; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. If you could be convinced that the enlargement 
 of the scope of the present parcel post did not militate against the 
 country merchant, but, on the contrary, benefited him, giving him 
 an increased facility for transportation, you would be in favor of it, 
 would you not? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. If it would be a benefit to the consumer ; yes, sir ; and 
 the retail merchant as well. Yes, sir; I would be in favor of it. 
 
 The Chairman. Your present impression is — and I assume that 
 you judge that to be the impression of your associates in your or- 
 ganization — that the enlargement of our present parcel post would 
 work to the benefit of whom ? If somebody is going to be injured, 
 somebody is going to be benefited, naturally. 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, you think that the country merchant would 
 be injured. Who would be benefited? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. We think the only ones to be benefited would be the 
 catalogue houses or the mail-order houses, as we speak of them, and 
 possibly also the large departmental stores that also do a catalogue 
 business in the large cities. That was the argument advanced. 
 
 The Chairman. On what theory do you figure that that would be 
 the result? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Simply on the theory that the consumer, or m 
 farmer in the smaller town, purchasing articles which they must 
 necessarily have, if they bought them from a distant city or from 
 the catalogue house, would drive just that much business away from 
 the local merchant. 
 
 The Chairman. Can the catalogue house undersell the country 
 merchant? 
 
PABCEL POST. 4&1 
 
 Mr. Eogers. They can, possibly, but we do not as a rule think 
 that they do. We believe the consumer, all things taken into con- 
 sideration, pays just as much, because the catalogue houses — the 
 large houses — have a greater expense in order to conduct their busi- 
 ness, the taxation being greater, with greater expense for rent, in- 
 surance, etc., than the small country merchant. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you made any effort to demonstrate to the 
 country merchant, so far as your organization is concerned, that he 
 can buy as cheap or cheaper from his nearest country store than he 
 can from the distant departmental or mail-order houses? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Well, the country merchant does not buy from a mail- 
 order house. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I mean, the consumer. 
 
 Mr. Eogers. The consumer. We, of course, have no connection 
 with the consumer. Our business is clone directly with the merchant. 
 
 The Chairman. But you expect to be directly injured or benefited, 
 as the country merchant is, because he is your customer? You are 
 protecting him, and incidentally yourself, from your viewpoint? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Yes, sir. There Avas another argument advanced, too, 
 or at least it was casually mentioned — that the so-called parcel post 
 would create a great deficit in the postal business, and as a result it 
 would be detrimental to the interests of the consumer in that way. 
 
 The Chairman. As regards increased taxation? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Yes. sir. 
 
 The Chairman. But suppose that a parcel post, if it were adopted, 
 were self-supporting, what then ? That opposition would have to dis- 
 appear, wouldn't it? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. That would evidently have to disappear. 
 
 The Chairman. It is not clear in my mind what opposition or 
 argument you can advance to show that an improved transportation 
 facility generally over the country, with no special privilege to any 
 class, is going to be a detriment, in any way, to the consumer. 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Well, there is one feature that I have sometimes heard 
 discussed with regard to that. If the country merchant is forced 
 out of business the consumer or the farmer who lives near him will 
 not have the same facility for marketing his products at home that he 
 will have if there is a good country merchant, and a thriving little 
 town of one, two, three, or possibly five thousand people, whereby he 
 can go and market his products, instead of being compelled to send 
 his butter and eggs to the larger city, or his products, and depend 
 upon the commission merchant there to dispose of his articles for 
 him. 
 
 The Chairman. But you are predicating your statement upon an 
 assumption, which you have not been able to substantiate, according 
 to your own announcement, that the country merchant is going to 
 be driven out of business. What the committee would like to know 
 is how he is going to be driven out of business. 
 
 Mr. Rogers. If the farmer does not buy a good share of his mer- 
 chandise from the small merchants, but buys from the catalogue or 
 mail-order house, it would in time naturally eliminate quite a num- 
 ber of the merchants. 
 
 The Chairman. Assuming that 99 per cent of your business is done 
 by freight and 1 per cent by express and the postal rates adopted 
 
482 PARCEL POST. 
 
 did not become competitive with the freight rate, but only with the 
 express rates, would the change of 1 per cent of your business 
 eliminate the country merchant? 
 
 . Mr. Rogers. No, sir ; 1 per cent certainly would not drive him out 
 of business. But if all the farmers sent to the department stores to 
 buy their shoes we would not have any to send by freight. 
 
 The Chairman. Let me ask you this : The departmental stores, or 
 the mail-order houses, have you any knowledge as to the percentage of 
 their business that is done by freight? 
 
 Mr. Eogers. No, sir; I have not. 
 
 The Chairman. You say that legislation affecting 1 per cent of 
 your business would have no serious effect, or at least would not 
 seriously affect the country merchant either, would it ? 
 
 Mr* Rogers. If the only loss to the average shoe salesman was 
 only 1 per cent^-of course it fluctuates more than that every year- 
 it would have no appreciable effect whatever. 
 
 The Chairman. Let me put the question another way. If the 
 postage were reduced .to a point so that it only became competitive 
 with the express rates, and was not competitive with freight rates, 
 would your opposition exist then ? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Well, the opposition to the parcel-post law, as I stated 
 in the first place, was that if it became a law whereby they could 
 get not only one pair of shoes, but could get a large package of 
 merchandise by freight; that instead of buying an article that 
 weighed 2 or 3 pounds they would then possibly be induced to buy 
 larger packages of merchandise up to the 11-pound limit, as I 
 understand the bill that is proposed. 
 
 And in that way they would be buying merchandise from the 
 catalogue houses, and everything that they bought from the mail- 
 order houses, or catalogue houses, would be just that much taken 
 from the smaller merchants. 
 
 The Chairman. They would not buy from the catalogue houses if 
 they could buy cheaper from the country merchant? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. If they could buy cheaper from the country mer- 
 chant ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Rogers. That is a question. I have positively known to my 
 own personal knowledge where the consumer sent to Montgomery 
 Ward & Co. to buy a pair of shoes that were advertised for $2 which 
 he could have bought for $1.85 at home from his retail dealer. Now, 
 I have known of absolute cases of that kind, but it appearing in their 
 nice catalogue, they preferred to buy from the mail-order houses. : ^ 
 
 The Chairman. That condition exists now? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Yes ; that condition exists now ; yes, sir. And if the 
 parcel-post law is enacted, where they could get 11 pounds of mer- 
 chandise in addition to these shoes, we think that possibly they 
 might be induced to buy a great many articles of merchandise. 
 
 The Chairman. Why did the individual pay 15 cents more to the 
 catalogue house than he would to his own store? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Simply because he did not know the value of the 
 article. 
 
 The Chairman. Did he repeat ? 
 
PARCEL POST. 48$ 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Well, of course I did not follow that up to see whether 
 he repeated the order, but I know also in certain other cases, for in*- 
 stance, with regard to rubber goods. We can establish absolutely the 
 exact cost of rubber goods. We know the cost of a pair of arctics, 
 which are used a great deal in the Northwest; we know the exact 
 inarket value of those from the brand. There is the Goodyear brand, 
 the Candee in Boston, New Jersey, and a number of other brands. 
 
 The Chairman. You know the prices at St. Paul ? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. We know the prices they are sold to the retailer for. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know the freight rate on them from St. 
 Paul to any point? 
 
 Mr. Rocees. No ; I could not give you the freight rate. 
 
 The Chairman. Then there is a question of transportation, one 
 phase of it, and that is very important to have. You either make 
 your case before the committee or we are able to convince you that 
 your fears are groundless, don't you see? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. I understand. The question of transportation was 
 never discussed. As I said before, the whole argument was that the 
 parcel-post bill would have a tendency in time to eliminate the 
 country merchant in the smaller towns. That is because they could 
 get their merchandise, as they believed or were made to believe, from 
 ; the large department stores and the catalogue houses at a less price. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that is a question under existing conditions, 
 asbetween the departmental stores and the country store as to who 
 f is able to sell the cheaper to the consumer ? 
 L Mr. Rogers. Yes. 
 
 ¥ The Chairman. You concede, do you not, that the customer will 
 buy, on the general average, where he can buy the cheapest ? 
 . Mr. Rogers. That is the natural supposition ; yes, sir. 
 
 .The Chairman. So that we are safe to start with that? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. There is no discussion on that point ? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. No. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, if the proposed legislation did not bring the 
 Government, in its parcel-post operations, into competition with the 
 railroads and transportation companies on freight rates it is not 
 , going to change the situation already existing so far as the mail- 
 : order houses and the departmental stores are concerned, is it ? 
 . Mr. Rogers. On the theory that they are going to buy where they 
 can get the cheapest ? 
 . The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Rogers. No ; I don't see how it could possibly make any dif- 
 ference along that line. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, isn't that a theory that is generally con- 
 ceded to be true? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Yes, sir. 
 
 .The Chairman. That the public will buy where they can buy the 
 cheapest if they know where the cheapest place is ? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I want to ask Mr. Rogers if he believes that a 
 parcel-post law that recognized the zone system 
 
 Mr. Rogers. I don't understand you, Senator, exactly. 
 
484 PARCEL POST, 
 
 Senator Bristow. Parcel-post law based upon the zone system 
 having a rate within a radius of 50 miles from the post office— the 
 same from all offices — increasing as the distance extended, so that it 
 would be much higher for 1,000 miles than for 50 or 100 or 200, and 
 that rate applied to every post office — the country post office as well 
 as the city post office — the same from all — do you think that that 
 would in any way militate against the country merchant? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Now, speaking individually, giving merely my indi- 
 vidual opinion, I would say no ; I do not believe it would ; but please 
 understand me, Senator, that I am simply here as a representative 
 of the order of United Commercial Travelers to present their protest, 
 and that is all. However, if you want me to answer that as 
 an individual, I say Lean not see any harm in that kind of a proposed 
 parcel-post law. You will find possibly dozens of other commercial 
 travelers who belong to this organization who would not agree with 
 you, but on that question I do agree with you. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Yes ; I understand. Now, as a matter of fact, 
 isn't the opposition of a good many of the commercial travelers 
 based upon the fear if the law is enacted it would not be that kind 
 of a law? 
 
 Mr. Sogers. I think that is true. On the other hand, they believe 
 that if there is that kind of law enacted, that it is only the entering 
 wedge of a general parcel-post law. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, but that would be a general parcel-post 
 law. I am not referring now to the rural delivery. 
 
 Mr. Rogers. I understand you. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That I will take up later. As it is now the 
 mail-order house has the advantage over the country merchant in 
 the express rate that it enjoys from the commercial center where it 
 is located out to the various communities ; that is, the rate from Chi- 
 cago to a point in Minnesota would be less than from some point in 
 Minnesota to another point in Minnesota in many instances, although 
 the distance was much greater. 
 
 Mr. Rogers. There is quite a difference in the express rates. The 
 express rate seems to increase the farther we go west. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Isn't the rate between two small towns in a 
 State sometimes much higher than it is from a city like Chicago out 
 to a town in that State, even though the city may be very much far- 
 ther away? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. That I do not know. I do not know whether that is 
 true or not. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Of course, as Senator Bourne has said, this is 
 a question of transportation, and that would be a very important 
 point to consider in connection with the subject. 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. As to whether or not the country merchant 
 in the little town, where there are three or four stores, if he wants 
 to send an express package to a customer who is 25 or 30 miles away, 
 an old customer or acquamtancej the express rate that he would have 
 to pay for that short distance, if it were greater or as great as the 
 mail-order house in Chicago would have to pay for a distance or 
 three or four hundred miles, and a parcel-post law was enacted 
 that would give this country merchant a lower rate than the express 
 
PARCEL POST. 485 
 
 he had to pay and still not make the rate from Chicago to his cus- 
 tomer any larger than the express rate now is, wouldn't that be a 
 benefit to the country merchant ? 
 Mri Kogeks. No doubt of it. There is no doubt of it. 
 Senator Beistow. Now, referring to the rural-delivery parcel post, 
 the objection which the country merchant and which the jobbing 
 houses have to that is the fear that it is the beginning of a general 
 parcel post that will have this detrimental effect ? 
 Mr. Rogers. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But eliminating that proposition and supposing 
 we take into consideration only the country merchant and his cus- 
 tomers on the rural routes and have a rural-delivery parcel post, 
 wherein the package shall originate at the town where the route 
 originates and be deliverable only upon that route out of that town. 
 Now, the mail-order house would not have any advantage whatever 
 over the country merchant so far as that rate was concerned. 
 Mr. Rogers. No, sir. I see the point you make there. 
 Senator Bristow. Now, the customer who lives on the country 
 road, we will say 10 miles out of town, if the roads are bad — which 
 is always bad for the country merchant — could drop a card or tele- 
 phone to the merchant in town for certain articles of merchandise 
 which he needed and have them come out the next morning, or the 
 same morning, by the parcel post at a reasonable rate for that serv- 
 ice, being a very short service. Wouldn't that be an advantage to 
 the customer and to the merchant, by giving the facility of delivery 
 to the merchant and giving an opportunity for the countryman to 
 get what he wanted without having to go to town for it 'i 
 Mr. Rogers. There is no doubt of it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, if it is possible to establish such a parcel 
 post as that, without a general parcel post, then the only objection 
 would be that the success of this might lead to its enlargement into 
 the general field later on ? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. That seems to be the general contention. 
 . Senator Bristow. Do you think we would be justified in refusing 
 this facility, which everybody admits is desirable, to the country 
 merchant and to his customer on the rural route because somebody 
 in the future might do something that ought not to be done ? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Well, I am unable to answer that question. I would 
 not answer that, because I do not know. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Did your association have any definite plan or 
 bill before it at its meeting in Columbus ? 
 Mr. Rogers. No, sir. It was simply a resolution. 
 Senator Bryan. Were you considering any concrete scheme of 
 parcel post at that meeting, or was it the general proposition ? 
 Mr. Rogers. The general proposition. 
 
 Senator Bryan. How much discussion was given to the question 
 r before the adoption of the resolution ? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Well, the time— I could not tell. I was presiding at 
 i the meeting, but if I remember correctly it was not more than half 
 an hour or so. 
 Senator Bryan. Well, in that discussion was any concrete plan of 
 i legislation discussed, or was it the general proposition ? 
 
486 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Kogers. As I remember it, it was the general proposition of a 
 general parcel post; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, wasn't there anything in concrete shape be- 
 fore the organization — any bill or any rates, or what the increased 
 scope of the present parcel post would be ? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. I will tell you, just as I said at the beginning. I will 
 make this statement, then I would like you to hear Mr. Somerville. 
 
 The Chairman. We will be glad to hear Mr. Somerville later. 
 
 Mr. Rogers. I was the presiding officer at the last meeting of the 
 supreme council, and this resolution was introduced among a number 
 of other resolutions and referred to our committee on resolutions 
 which committee reported back to the supreme body. In proceeding 
 there I paid no particular attention to the time of any special resolu- 
 tion that came before the body, but in this resolution the committee 
 was appointed and instructed to come down and present that resolu- 
 tion here before Congress. Now, so far as the essence of the discus- 
 sion down there is concerned, some of those taking part in it would 
 be better able to give the information to you more definitely than I, 
 and for that reason I would ask, Senator, that you hear Mr. Somerr 
 ville. 
 
 The Chairman. We expect to hear Mr. Somerville. Have you 
 made any special study yourself of the subject of a parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. Very little, indeed. I confess to you that shortly 
 after the first supreme council met, when I went back home, I called 
 on Congressman Stevenson, who represents the St. Paul district 
 where I live and who is a neighbor of mine, and he happened to be 
 home, if I remember correctly, about the middle of July. I went to 
 him and asked him with regard to the parcel-post bill and told him 
 what we had done, and I was thinking of coming down here. He said 
 that Congress would soon adjourn, and I came to the conclusion that 
 it was not worth while to come down at that time, and he said that he 
 agreed with me on that. 
 
 Then the question came up regarding the parcel post, and he said 
 the committee had been holding hearings on that, and he would send 
 me the proceedings. He therefore sent me a book on the hearings 
 that the House had been holding, covering three hundred and ninety 
 and odd pages, which I had gone through very carefully. Of course a 
 great many things came up there that I had never been familiar with 
 before, and I thought, knowing that we were coming down — some of 
 the representatives of the United Commercial Travelers, to the Na- 
 tional Rivers and Harbors Congress — -we would present the matter at 
 this time. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the committee is indeed glad to receive your 
 views. 
 
 Senator Bryan. How many were in the convention at Columbus? 
 
 Mr. Rogers. There were between 155 and 160. Our organization 
 is composed of 63,000 members, but our representatives from the 
 different States are based upon our membership. . 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any further statement you care to make! 
 
 Mr. Rogers. No, sir ; I do not think there is. 
 
 The Chairman. We are verv much obliged to you, Mr. Rogers. , 
 
TESTIMONY OF MR. R. F. SOMERVILLE, OF DAYTON, OHIO, REPRE- 
 SENTING THE UNITED ORDER OF COMMERCIAL TRAVELERS OF 
 AMERICA. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Somerville, it is necessary that you be sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age and present occu- 
 pation ? 
 
 Mr. Somerville. Fifty-eight. I am secretary of the Grand Council 
 of Ohio, United Commercial Travelers. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you explain for the committee the scope of 
 the organization, the membership, and how far it extends over the 
 country ? 
 
 Mr. Somerville. You mean the national organization? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. We have 27 grand councils. We have one in 
 Canada. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I mean your own particular one that you are 
 secretary of. 
 
 Mr. Somervtlle. In Ohio we have 8,200 members and 54 subordi- 
 nate councils; that means they are located in 48 cities; we have some 
 cities that have more than one council, and that membership ranges 
 from 28 to 1.036. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the Ohio grand council? 
 
 Mr. Somerville. That is the Ohio division; yes, sir. The supreme 
 headquarters are also located in Ohio. 
 
 The Chairman. You are secretary of the organization? 
 
 Mr. Somerville. Yes, sir; of the State. 
 
 The Chairman. And you appear before the committee in your 
 official capacity? 
 
 Mr. Somerville. Now, if you will allow me, Senator, I did not 
 know until last night that I was to appear here, as we had our rep- 
 resentative to appear for us. Had I known it, I would be like the boy 
 who bad a job in the bank. He was asked to make a trial balance and 
 he worked on it for a few hours and could not get it correct, and 
 finally he said to the president, " Let me go home and I will get one 
 thiit I worked out in school, which was correct." Had I known I was 
 going to be called here, I would have some facts to show you, so I 
 will have to do a little guesswork along the lines you will question me. 
 
 The Chairman. You are in favor or opposed to a parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Somerville. I am opposed to a parcel-post law. 
 ,: The Chairman. What do you understand by a parcel-post law? 
 
 Mr. Somerville. As I understand it, from what I have read, it is a 
 ; law whereby not only mail-order houses, but any citizen can send 
 freight by mail at a reduced rate. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, you mean merchandise. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. Well, I say merchandise. I will say merchandise; 
 some of it will be freight if they keep on increasing the weight. 
 21845— vol 2—12 15 487 
 
488 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any objection to the present law of 
 fourth-class mail matter, wherein you are permitted to send up to 4 
 pounds at the rate of 1 cent an ounce. 
 
 Mr. Somerviixe. No; I am not particularly opposed to that. 
 
 The Chairman. But your opposition is to any enlargement of the 
 present scope? 
 
 Mr. Somerville. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chaikman. Upon what grounds? 
 
 Mr. Somerville. Well, the first that I ever took any interest what- 
 ever in this matter was when one of our members, having traveled in 
 Germany for a year, on his own account took particular notice of the 
 parcel post. When he came back he was asked about his travels, and 
 the question of the parcel post came up. His statement was, " It is a 
 grand success in Germany," and those who had been thinking about 
 a parcel-post law in this country commenced weakening in their 
 position a little. " But." he said, " it is at the cost of the small 
 merchant." He said, " Where there used to be the crossroads mer- 
 chants in Germany, you don't find them to-day, but the mail-order 
 houses and the big houses in the city have eaten them up." That 
 was his expression. 
 
 The Chairman . Our information, directly from diplomatic soirees, 
 is exactly the reverse of that. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. I will say this is a statement I am making second- 
 handedj because I was not there. I got this information from this 
 member. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Who was the man ? 
 
 Mr. Somerville. As I said, if I had known I was coming here I 
 would have been prepared. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Do you know who the man was who made the 
 report of his visit to Germany? 
 
 Mr. Somerville. No; I could not remember the man's name, but 
 he published a letter in our official organ, Sample Case. 
 
 The Chairman. Was it Mr. Green? 
 
 Mr. Somerville. I do not remember the name. 
 
 Senator Bryan. What position did he hold? 
 
 Mr. Somerville. He held no official position in the order. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Did he have anything to do with the National Re- 
 tail Grocers' Association? 
 
 Mr. Somerville. No ; he was in the same line of business as many , 
 of the men in Germany, and if I am not mistaken he was from some 
 western city. This morning when Mr. Kogers spoke to me I was 
 sorry that I did not have the information to show your committee; 
 coming from a man who had been on the spot. - 
 
 The Chairman. Have you made a study yourself of the problem! • 
 
 Mr. Somerville. A little; and my conclusion, Senator, is this: < 
 Now, you were speaking of the traffic of the freight rates on shoes. 1 . 
 do not think that that enters into this whatever. The price of freight 
 from St. Paul to any one of the retail merchants does not to nie 
 seem to enter into the question, but it is the point whether they can 
 get 11 pounds of merchandise on one bill— I think I have seen that 
 weight quoted in one bill— at the rate of 10 cents for the first pouiw 
 and 4 cents thereafter. Now, if they can get several pairs of shoes a 
 that price, they will do it. J 
 
PARCEL POST. 489 
 
 The Chairman. Provided they can not get it from their country 
 merchant for less. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. Now, let me state there, Senator, what occurs to 
 my mind. Are you very well acquainted with the country people? 
 Did you ever go up against any of them ? 
 
 The Chairman. I am pretty well acquainted with them. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. I have had some experience, and I will say to you 
 that they do not know a value when they see it, in a great many 
 cases. They think they do. Now, these catalogue houses get out 
 these beautiful catalogues, with their hundreds of pages that cost 
 forty-odd cents apiece, and the farmer looks through them and sees 
 the pictures. For instance, he will see a pair of shoes illustrated. 
 Now, by the sight of that cut itself, not the shoe, he orders from 
 that house, and he pays his money and that is the end of it. Some 
 of them are nervy at times, and they will say, " I am not going to 
 kick, although I have been bitten," and they will stick by their 
 bargain. 
 
 The Chairman. They would not be bitten over again. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. Well, I do not know ; some of them go up against 
 it the second time., I, for one, have gone up against it for the sec- 
 ond time. They will try anything the first time. Now, there is 
 ancther second-hand case where I have been told the parties have 
 actually gone in and shown the goods and would say — perhaps they 
 wanted to be a " smart Aleck " — " Why can't you sell me something 
 like this? I paid one dollar and a half for this," and the merchant 
 showed him exactly the same style and the same article for less 
 money. Now, if you will allow me to illustrate: In Dayton, Ohio, 
 there is a large general store there run by Elder & Johnson. Mr. 
 Johnson lives two doors west of me. Within the last year one of the 
 maids at the house knew that Mrs. Johnson was going down to the 
 city and the maid said to Mrs. Johnson, " I wish you would get me a 
 postal money order for a dollar." Mrs. Johnson said, "All right, 
 I will get some one from the store to get it for you, but who do you 
 want it made out to? " The maid replied " Sears, Roebuck & Co." 
 Mrs. Johnson naturally said, "What are you sending it up there 
 for? " The maid said, "Handkerchiefs." Well, as a matter of fact, 
 Elder & Johnson have more handkerchiefs in their store than you 
 could get in this room, but that maid had a catalogue and she was 
 going to get something for a bargain, yet she was working for a dry- 
 goods man in the city. Now, let us take the case of the country mer- 
 chant, and I speak from knowledge : I at one time worked for a liv- 
 , ing. I was on the road selling baking powder, coffee, and spices. I 
 ■ : had a certain territory which I covered every four weeks, and within 
 that time I had perhaps 5 towns of 5,000 inhabitants. I perhaps 
 had 5 above that or 10 above that number, and I had quite a num- 
 ber from the varied crossroads store, where there were not more 
 than two or three families living there, up to the village of 300 or 
 400 merchants, and I could actually go into any one of those little 
 towns of 500 inhabitants and sell more goods and collect more money 
 . than I could in any one of the large -cities. What I am trying to 
 illustrate is that they are the best merchants we have, and we would 
 hate mightily to see them laid on the shelf. 
 
 The Chairman. I did not catch the last. 
 
490 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Someeville. We would hate to have them eliminated, if such 
 a law would eliminate them. I am willing to state I do not know 
 about things we have never tried. We have never tried that in this 
 country, as it is proposed in various ways, but we have to suppose 
 some things, and those who are proposing that bill are supposing and 
 presuming that it is going to help somebody. Now, then, the coun- 
 tryman may be benefited, and I am not going to doubt that in the 
 least ; but is it a good plan to eliminate this man and this one, taking, 
 perhaps, 50 merchants in a county — I will cut that down to 25; yes, 
 suppose we say we eliminate 10 in one county where there are perr 
 haps 150 small merchants — now is it a good policy to eliminate 10 
 of those merchants to benefit a few farmers? Who are going to make 
 up for the taxes that these men pay, which in a large measure help to 
 keep up the county" roads? These men can not go to the city, for they 
 can not pay the taxes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If you will pardon me, I do not think it is neces- 
 sary to argue with the committee that it is not desirable to elinu\ 
 nate the country merchant. There is not a single member of the 
 committee who would harm the country merchant, and any argu- 
 ment that he would be put out of business is not along the line of 
 our inquiry. What we want to know is, How any proposed legislation 
 would injure him ? There is a difference of opinion as to whether it 
 would or would not. Wherein would he be injured? The question of 
 whether he ought to be there and maintained and have his opporto- 
 nity to do business is conceded by everybody. None of the members 
 of the committee would want to do away with the country merchant. 
 But how are we going to eliminate him ? In what way does this harm 
 him ? 
 
 Mr. Someeville. Supposing this merchant in a crossroads town has 
 150 farmers who trade with him, and he depends on those for trade. 
 If a parcels-post bill is passed, it is supposed to be for the benefit of 
 the majority, as I understand it, or for these farmers. Suppose the 
 majority of those farmers would buy from the cities or any place out- 
 side of this little merchant; how long would he last? 
 
 Senator Bristow. But suppose this little merchant had a better 
 rate within a radius of 50 miles to all the people living in that radius 
 than the city merchant had; how would he be injured then? 
 
 Mr. Somerville. Well, the thought would be of buying away from 
 home. 
 
 Senator Bristow. He has that now, and he has a better express rate 
 from the city to the farmer than he has from the village to the farmer. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. Well, I do not know that that is the case, because 
 of the fact if they were all to buy very largely by express it would 
 cost them considerable money for the large things or a number of 
 things, while with the little things it would not cost him so much. 
 For instance, a man might buy three articles, amounting to $100, 
 where he would not buy one for'$50, but he knows there is that cheap 
 rate of forwarding. I will say right here, if you are going to give us 
 a bill give us one of this kind. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean a zone bill ? 
 
 Mr. Somerville. Yes. If we are going to have a bill, give us the 
 best one you can, although it is, as Brother Rogers states, an enter* 
 ing wedge of something greater in the future. Suppose you would 
 
PARCEL POST. 491 
 
 pass a bill on what you term the " zone system " ; that, as I under- 
 stand it, would be from the beginning of a mail route to the end of it. 
 
 Senator Bkistow. Yes ; that is the rural route. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. Now, we will take the city of Dayton, Ohio, for 
 instance. We have, I believe, 15 different routes out of there ; from 
 the number of wagons I have seen going out of there I imagine 
 there are that many. I don't know whether it would pay Sears, 
 Roebuck & Co. or any other house to go to Dayton and open up a 
 branch house ; I hardly believe so. 
 
 The Chairman. You can not keep competitors from coming into 
 Dayton and opening stores. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. Well, there is the premium to pay him to come. 
 
 The Chairman. Not if it gives you or the stores of Dayton the 
 same advantage and opportunity. There is no special legislation 
 being created for any special interest or special class in society. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. But bear this in mind : that the mail-order houses 
 do a different class of business. For instance, the Elder & Johnson 
 stores; they do a mail-order business and they advertise to send by 
 mail. They do send some articles by mail, but that business will not 
 interfere with the smaller merchants, because it is a class of goods 
 that would not' be kept in stock in the country stores. Now, then, I 
 will go back to the old story. If we eliminate the small merchant, 
 that is where we become personally interested, because if there are 
 100 stores in my district that are cut down it will cut my business. 
 
 The Chairman. Senator Bristow said there was not any intention 
 on the part of the committee to eliminate anyone. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. I do not for a moment want to insinuate that. If 
 I am so understood I ask that it be stricken from the record. 
 
 The Chairman. We want demonstration presented to us where we 
 are going to injure certain interests by certain legislation of a tenta- 
 tive nature. What we want is to get certain information in order to 
 permit us to perform our duty and trust to the best of our ability. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. When this was brought up there was nothing set- 
 tled on, but the whole organization was against a parcel post so far 
 as any legislation was concerned. Now, I understand a new bill will 
 be presented. 
 
 The Chairman. There will probably be a number of bills. The 
 particular bill you have reference to, I suppose, is a bill which I pro- 
 posed to introduce in order to have something definite to work on. 
 It is not the committee's bill or anything of the sort, but simply to 
 get something tangible which we can analyze and amend or do what- 
 ever is deemed best by the committee itself or by Congress. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. As I said, the starting point of our argument was 
 from this party who wrote the article that I spoke of, and I am only 
 too sorry I do not have that information with me. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Now, that is what started your opposition, the 
 statement of the party who went to Germany ? 
 
 Mr. Somerville. Yes; the opposition among the commercial trav- 
 elers. That was the beginning of it. Now, then, from that we went 
 to figuring in our minds — supposing that that happens in this coun- 
 try — what is it going to do? The mail-order houses are doing a 
 great big business, and, as I say, the novelty of being away from 
 home induces the people to do a lot of buying from the catalogue 
 houses. I know that people in Columbus go to Cincinnati to buy 
 
492 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 dry goods, and they will also go from Cincinnati to New York. We 
 say, "Why?" And they say, "Because we have a larger and better 
 variety." 
 
 Senator Bryan. That is true, but you can not eliminate that per- 
 sonal equation — that feature. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. That is what I say. Now, if a farmer can sit 
 down in the winter evenings and read the great catalogue, he will 
 begin to make his purchases from the large catalogue houses. We 
 know how these catalogues attract sales. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But the farmer now has the catalogue. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And he now has his express rates. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. Well, that I don't know. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, of course you know he has an express rate ; 
 the express companies run everywhere, and they are doing business. 
 He has an express rate from the city, and he gets the goods. Sears, 
 Roebuck & Co., so I have been informed, sold $75,000,000 worth of 
 goods last year ; therefore, as I say, the farmer gets the goods under 
 the present conditions. Now, this inclination to go to the larger 
 towns, where you get a better variety to select from ; that is a con- 
 dition which now prevails, against which the local merchant is con- 
 tending. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. I am speaking about the higher class of goods. 
 I am not talking about a barrel of coffee, or a pair of shoes, but the 
 ladies who pay $100 for a suit, they go to the larger cities to buy, 
 but they do not buy from the mail-order houses. 
 
 Senator Bristow. No; the country merchant is contending against 
 that now. Now, if it should appear that a parcel-post bill could be 
 enacted that would not be injurious to the revenues of the Govern- 
 ment, but advantageous to it, and offered a facility to the merchant 
 in the country or in the city — the same facility to all, and an addi- 
 tional facility to the customer, wherever he might be — to get articles 
 from one or the other upon exactly the same conditions, wherein 
 would it be a detriment to the country merchant, provided, always, 
 that he has the opportunity to render the same service or to accept 
 the same service from the Government upon equal terms as com- 
 petitors, either in his own town or in any other town. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. Now, Senator, take in one floor of Sears, Roebuck 
 & Co., and they will have more goods on that floor than a dozen coun- 
 try merchants could afford to carry. 
 
 The Chairman. Of course, but is not the success of their business 
 primarily due to their ability to assemble and their executive ability 
 to handle business at the least possible cost ? 
 
 Mr. Somerville. We will acknowledge that, but they are not giv- 
 ing it to the people. 
 
 The Chairman. To be sure. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. But there is where you can not compare it, be- 
 cause a country merchant could not and would not begin to carry the 
 big variety the department store would in the city. 
 
 The Chairman. Because he hasn't the trade. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. That is it; and a parcel post would not help him 
 any from the fact that he could not get what he wanted at the little 
 country store. 
 
PARCEL, POST. 498 
 
 The Chairman. Now, take Germany, which has the most elaborate 
 parcel-post system in the world, where they carry up to 110 pounds 
 weight, and where they will carry 11 pounds, which is the maximum 
 weight we have under consideration, at 6 cents for a zone of over 
 40 miles and 12 cents for 11 pounds any distance in the German 
 Empire. If this were such a benefit to the mail-order houses, then 
 why should not the mail-order houses thrive more in that country 
 than in any other ? As a matter of fact, the mail-order house activi- 
 ties in Germany are restricted entirely to the cities themselves and 
 do not extend into the country. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. Well, who is it that ships these goods to the 
 country people — just the ordinary stores? 
 
 The Chairman. Why, sure. They are sent by freight, the same as 
 they would be, in my opinion, under this tentative bill that we have 
 discussed. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. Now, Senator, I told Brother Rogers I would 
 like to come up here more to get information than to try to give it, 
 because 1 want to know about this. I am not from Missouri, but I 
 can be shown, and if this thing is for the good of the country I am 
 for it, and I do not see that our organization, in that event, will raise 
 any objection to it. Now, will you allow me to ask you this : They 
 talk about a deficit in the Post Office Department. The carriers on 
 the rural routes have a small wagon with one horse. Now, would 
 it be possible if Ave had a mail-order business which was going to 
 benefit the people and would largely increase in its size, would that 
 increase the carrier's wagon room or would he have to have more 
 wagon room and more horses in order to take care of it ? 
 
 The Chairman. I do not think so. I will give you my own opin- 
 ions in answering you. We have 42,000 rural free delivery routes in 
 the United States, in round numbers. According to the evidence that 
 has been submitted to the committee and as contained in the report 
 of the Post Office Department there are only 100 out of that 42,000 
 routes that are working to the top of their load, at their full peak. 
 Outside of that there are probably 41,900 carriers who could carry 
 four times in weight what they are actually doing now, so there is 
 an apparent waste of 75 per cent. In other words, you could increase 
 the business fourfold on the 41,900 routes without additional expense. 
 You gentlemen, as business- men, would certainly, from a business 
 viewpoint, favor the full utilization of any governmental operations 
 of machinery to its full limit if it could be done without injury to 
 individuals or to certain interests, on a broad 'principle, wouldn't you? 
 
 Mr. Somervhle. Yes. But down home we have a pretty busy 
 territory in there, and I have never seen any of those wagons that 
 are so heavily loaded, and if the mail-order business would increase 
 to such an extent that it takes two horses and a heavy wagon, that 
 would be pretty nearly double the expense that you have now, and 
 there is a question in my mind whether it will be expensive in the 
 long run to the Government. 
 
 The Chairman. No. Given a governmental machinery to-day 
 that is only operating at 25 per cent of its full peak of efficiency, 
 it is certainly desirable, if it can be done, to bring it up to its ultimate 
 load of operations, isn't it ? 
 
494 PABOEIi POST. 
 
 Mr. Someeville. I suppose that the salary of the rural route man 
 probably might remain the same — there would not be any increase? 
 He will have certainly more weight. 
 
 The Chairman. He does not carry the load. He may have more 
 packages to distribute, but he has them in his wagon. 
 
 Mr. Somerville. Would not that delay first-class matter? 
 
 The Chairman. That is a matter of detail that has to be worked 
 out. It would be demonstrated whether that was necessary. That 
 is purely a matter of detail. We are very much obliged to you, 
 Mr. Somerville, for the views which you have presented to the 
 committee. 
 
 (Thereupon, at 4.45 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned to meet 
 at the call of the chairman.) 
 
MONDAY, DECEMBER 11, 1911. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), Senator 
 Joseph L. Bristow, and Senator Nathan P. Bryan. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. S. NORVELL, REPRESENTING THE WHOLE- 
 SALERS OF ST. LOUIS, MO. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Norvell, it will be necessary that you be 
 sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. "Will you kindly state your age and present occu- 
 pation ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. My age is 48 years. I have several occupations. 
 I am retired from active business. 
 
 The Chairman. Your official occupation is what I want par- 
 ticularly. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I am a director in the Norvell-Chappell Hardware 
 Co., St. Louis, hardware jobbers. I am also the owner of the trade 
 publication, the Hardware Reporter, and a director in the Missis- 
 sippi Valley Trades Co. and other corporations. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you appear here, Mr. Norvell, as a representa- 
 tive of any organization or to give your own views, based upon your 
 business experience? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I appear to represent the following list of jobbers 
 of St. Louis: Hardware jobbers, the dry-goods jobbers, the grocery 
 jobbers, and the shoe jobbers, representing the largest houses in St. 
 Louis. They represent $70,000,000 of capital and 2,100 salesmen. 
 
 (The. list referred to is as follows:) 
 
 Black well-Weilandy Book & Sta- 
 tionery Store. 
 Carleton Dry Goods Co. 
 Ely & Walker Dry Goods Co. 
 Forbes Tea & Coffee Co., Jas. H. 
 Friedman-Shelby Shoe Co. 
 Hargadme-McKittrick Dry Goods Co. 
 Hamilton Brown Shoe Co. 
 Kroger-Amos-James Grocery Co. 
 Majestic Manufacturing Co. 
 Merrell Drug Co., J. S. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the views that you will present to the com- 
 mittee will be the views, as you understand, of the list of companies 
 or organizations that you have just givei>. the committee? Are you 
 opposed to or in favor of parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I am opposed to it. 
 
 The Chairman. What do you understand by a parcel post ? 
 
 495 
 
 Mound City Paint & Color Co. 
 
 Peters Shoe Co. 
 
 Rice, Stix Dry Goods Co. 
 
 Rosenthal-Sloan Millinery Co. 
 
 Roberts, Johnson & Rand Shoe Co. 
 
 Scudder-Gale Grocery Co. 
 
 Simmons Hardware Co. 
 
 Norvell-Chappell Hardware Co. 
 
 Witte Hardware Co. 
 
 Geller Ward & Horner Hardware Co. 
 
496 PABCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I understand that a parcel post is a system of dis- 
 tributing merchandise by mail in packages up to 11 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Gratuitously? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. For certain rates to be established. 
 
 The Chairman. Then your opposition is to the 11-pound weight? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. My opposition is to the Government entering into 
 the transportation of merchandise — the general principle of the 
 Government transporting merchandise ; that is the first objection. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it your opinion that the Government already 
 performs that function up to. the limited extent of 4 pounds in 
 weight ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. That is true. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you object to that? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I do not object to that as it has been carried on up 
 to this time, but my objection to an extension is that it would change 
 the present method of distributing goods in the United States. 
 
 In order to go into that, Senator, it will be necessary for me to 
 outline my views in a general way. 
 
 The Chairman. We would be very glad if you would do so. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I was for 10 years a traveling salesman, from the 
 time I was 19 years of age until I was 29. Before that I was a stock 
 contractor and traveled all over the West and saw a great deal of 
 the development in the West. After that I came back to the house 
 and became a salesman manager. A year ago I retired from busi- 
 ness. I have been very much interested in this parcel-post question. 
 On the 1st of June I went to Europe with the object of studying the 
 parcel post there. I had certain impressions and I wanted to see 
 whether those impressions were correct or not. I devoted four 
 months to traveling in Europe studying the parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you specify right there the countries in 
 which you made your special study? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Of course, traveling as I did in 14 different coun- 
 tries, I did not go into the statistics. What I went over mainly for 
 was to see the effect of the distribution of goods. I traveled in the 
 following way: I landed in England, from England to Holland, 
 Belgium, France, Switzerland, Bavaria, Hungary, Austria, Germany, 
 Norway, Denmark, and then over to Scotland and back to England. 
 I was traveling for four months constantly, a large part of that time 
 by motor. I wanted to see the effects upon the small towns of parcel 
 post. I found to my own satisfaction just what I anticipated be- 
 fore I went abroad. 
 
 The Chairman. Your mind was in a receptive condition? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. It was in a receptive condition. As I say, I had 
 retired from business. I retired because I had made enough to live 
 on, and I had no selfish interests in this matter. I found the con- 
 ditions in Europe very much worse than I anticipated. I found the 
 way the people lived was entirely different from what I anticipated, 
 and no man who has simply lived in this country and has read in 
 a general way about the conditions in Europe can appreciate how 
 the people live in Europe without going among them and studying 
 the subject. The business of Europe, while in the aggregate, of 
 course, it is very large, as a matter of fact is a peanut business. They 
 not only live from day to day, but from meal to meal. I have been 
 
PARCEL POST. 497 
 
 in dozens of houses where they had not enough food in the house 
 to last more than the next meal. They had no refrigerators. I 
 am talking now about the common people. They had no store- 
 rooms, and they never buy flour by the barrel or sugar by the barrel. 
 They buy simply, as I say, from meal to meal. In a large part oi 
 Europe you can not get a piece of ice. They have no refrigerators 
 and can not keep ice. I have been in towns of 3,000 inhabitants 
 where you could not get a drink of ice water. The wages are ex- 
 ceedingly low. I had heard these stories about the low wages of 
 Europe, but I never realized until I learned what these wages were 
 by talking to the people. The men, for instance, expert carpenters, 
 make $2 a day; men working on the streets, doing laborers' work, 
 receive 75 cents a day or a dollar. There are women working in the 
 public parks in Germany. Now, that will give a general idea 
 of about how the poorer people live. I went also into the small towns, 
 I mean towns of about 3,000 inhabitants. I went into the stores to 
 see what they carried in stock. There is no comparison with the 
 conditions in the United States. You can go into a town in the 
 United States, in the West, and in the East — a town of 3,000 people — ■ 
 and you will find a complete stock of dry goods and a good stock 
 of shoes or hardware. In these European towns you find only the 
 most staple goods; there is no complete stock. 
 
 As a friend of mine expressed it, " You can get in a town like this 
 only a drink and something to eat." The people in Europe — the 
 farmers — live in villages and go to their farms every day. As you 
 travel along the highway you come to a little village built of stone. 
 There you will find probably a wheelwright shop and a grocery store 
 that will carry a few household articles, and that is all the merchan- 
 dise there is in that town. As I say, I traveled for 10 years in this 
 country and I am pretty well posted on all small towns, and I was 
 struck with the tremendous difference between conditions in that coun- 
 try and this. Now, in the United States — I will speak mainly for the 
 hardware line, and the same thing is true for all lines — about 80 per 
 cent of all the merchants are ex-farmers. The farmer either goes into 
 the hardware business himself or puts his son into the hardware busi- 
 ness. That can be confirmed by all the merchants that are here. 
 
 The Chairman. But 80 per cent of the farmers are not merchants, 
 are they? 
 
 Mr. Noevell. No ; but 80 per cent of the merchants are ex-farmers. 
 Now, the point I wish to make, Senator, is this : That in the United 
 States the small town is a social center ; not only that, it is an educa- 
 tional center. They train merchants in these small towns. I hired 
 a traveling salesman for 20 years, and the best salesman that I could 
 get in my business — when I retired there were 200 salesmen em- 
 ployed in my business — were the farmers' boys who had been em- 
 ployed i»a small town as clerks. We get them and train them and 
 put them on the road. Some of the best heads of the department we 
 have in our business come up from these small towns. Now, in this 
 country there is a constant working upward from the farms to the 
 small towns and from the small towns to the cities. 
 
 The Chairman. You are going to depopulate the farms, then ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Not enough of them come that way to depopulate 
 the farms. There is always a good_ supply coming on, but I wish 
 to draw a parallel between the business in the United States and 
 
498 PARCEL POST. 
 
 the development of Europe. I was so struck with the conditions 
 in Europe being so different that I asked the merchants in Budapest, 
 Paris, London, and other places that I visited, whether the ranks 
 of the merchants were recruited from the farmers, and they said 
 absolutely not ; that the merchants were separate and distinct classes, 
 and that the farmers remained farmers, the merchants developing 
 among themselves. 
 
 The Chairman. We hear a good deal about the industrial business 
 of Germany, do we not ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Yes; in manufacturing almost entirely. 
 
 The Chairman. But they have to dispose of their goods. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Yes. They take these young men that they put 
 through the schools in the cities, but they are not, as a rule, what 
 they call the " peasant class." 
 
 But my experience in Europe was that the reason they saved 
 money is because they do without things. In America they do not 
 do without things. In France I took a motor and went down to the 
 Pyrenees, in southern France. I was two weeks motoring, and I 
 went into any number of homes of the farmers. Well-to-do farmers 
 will have land. Of course, you know how France was divided up 
 by Napoleon. In England they gave the land to the generals in 
 the army, and in France Napoleon gave the land to the soldiers. 
 As a result, France is more divided up into small farms than Eng- 
 land or any other country in Europe. The people live on the bare 
 necessities of life; they live in stone houses with bare walls, with- 
 out any comforts, as Americans look at it. The man may have 
 money in bank. They do not put their money in banks; they in- 
 vest their money in bonds; he may have a lot of bonds put away. 
 They are very frugal and very saving, and do without things. Now, 
 the condition, as I found it in Europe, is that they have zone sys- 
 tems 
 
 The Chairman. This is all very interesting indeed, Mr. Norvell, 
 but what the committee would like to get especially is what deductions 
 you draw affecting the questions under consideration. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. What I am getting at is by reason of the parcel 
 post the small merchants told me that the large department stores 
 and catalogue houses in Europe — and it is true in every country — • 
 were selling direct to the consumer, and the only business they had 
 (the small merchants) was with the laboring man, the ignorant man, 
 who either had no credit or could not establish a credit with the 
 department store, therefore they had only the business of the very 
 poorest of the community. 
 
 The Chairman. How long were you in Germany ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I was in Germany about three weeks. 
 
 The Chairman. You say you found that condition existing there? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. In the smaller towns. * 
 
 The Chairman. What was the scope of the activity of The mail- 
 order houses or department stores ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I was told that they were constantly growing. I 
 also read in consular reports in Germany that the statistics showed 
 that the business of the department store was growing at a much 
 greater rate than the business 
 
 The Chairman. Our information through our ambassador is to 
 the effect that. the scope of activity of the departmental stores is con- 
 
PABCBL POST. 499 
 
 fined to the cities ; that the country merchant in general is not affected, 
 but that he is strongly in favor of the parcel post and asking for an 
 abolishment of the zone system and an extension of the service. 
 What condition did you find in Belgium? 
 
 Mr, Noevell. I found the same condition that I speak of. The 
 small merchants are all complaining of the parcel-post system. I 
 would Btop the machine and go into the different stores to talk with 
 the people. 
 
 The Chairman. Our information is as follows : 
 
 The parcel post has proven very successful in Belgium, not only with 
 the public, but the Government has realized large profit in this department; 
 but there are no statistics published to show details. One proof of its suc- 
 cess is in the fact that the Government is now studying a project to extend 
 the parcel post to include packages up to 100 kilos, or even more, in weight. 
 It is interesting to note what effect this service has on the business of the small 
 merchants of the country villages, whether they suffer a material loss as a 
 consequence of the larger merchants in the city supplying their customers; and 
 it appears they have not suffered a loss in their business; that they are the only 
 ones to make the most use of the parcel-post service. If they do not have an 
 article asked for, they at once order it for their customer, and have it sent by 
 parcel post. In general, the people of the country and the small towns, except 
 the rich, do not use the parcel post much in ordering things I'roua the city, but 
 buy at home, as they did before this system started. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I went into a large department store — I have for- 
 gotten the name — in Berlin. 
 
 The Chairman. This was Belgium that I was speaking about. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. My experience was that it was practically the same 
 for every country. In Berlin I went into a store and they told me 
 they delivered all packages amounting to $5 or over to every part of 
 Germany. In other words, they not only paid the postage on it and 
 delivered the goods 
 
 The Chairman. At what price? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. They made a figure. Of course, I suppose they have 
 to estimate that in the rate. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, in Germany for packages up to 11 pounds 
 they charge 6 cents for a zone distance of over 40 miles, and for 12 
 cents they will carry 11 pounds to any part of the Empire. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. The point I am making, Senator, is how the retail 
 merchants of the small towns can compete with the stores in Berlin 
 buying at wholesale prices in enormous quantities. In my experi- 
 ence I found that the people were not satisfied. 
 
 The Chairman. Our experience through official sources is that 
 they are. You attribute the existing conditions in Europe, which 
 you have so graphically described, as entirely and solely due to the 
 parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Not altogether. 
 
 The Chairman. You think the parcel-post system in those coun- 
 tries is a great factor in bringing about that condition? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I think one of the factors. It is not the great fac- 
 tor, but one of the factors in killing off the small-merchant — not kill- 
 ing him off, he has not existed for years. 
 
 The Chairman. There are none? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Practically no merchants. They are not merchants 
 in the light that we consider merchants. They are shopkeepers. 
 
500 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you attribute the fact that, according to your 
 statements, there are no merchants there due to the existence of a 
 parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Largely. 
 
 The Chairman. England established a parcel post in 1883. Are 
 you cognizant of the fact whether there were country merchants or 
 shopkeepers prior to the adoption of the parcel post. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I discussed that with merchants and they say the 
 conditions have become worse and worse ; that it was better previous 
 to the time the parcel post was established. 
 
 The Chairman. Your statements are remarkable in view of the 
 authoritative information which we have received and which must be 
 assumed to be from the best sources, the administrative branches of 
 the different countries that have charge of this particular activity, in 
 their respective countries, and information collated from other 
 sources, as well as the sentiments relative to that function of the 
 Government in these respective countries. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. All I can say is that I claim to be a trained merchant. 
 I have been a merchant for 31 years. I have been through excellent 
 training. I went to Europe to investigate this very question and 
 the effects upon the small merchant in the small town. I am simply 
 expressing what I saw with my own eyes. I talked to the retail mer- 
 chants and talked to the bankers and talked to railroad men and to 
 postal clerks, and I came back convinced more than ever that the 
 parcel post would injure this country instead of benefiting it. 
 
 The Chairman. Some one has got to be benefited if somebody is 
 injured. Now, how do you explain the fact that in England that 
 branch of the postal service is steadily increasing in its operations 
 if no one is benefited ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I would explain it, first, because the population 
 there is a class of people who simply take what they do to them like 
 children. I was there at the coronation and I saw the poorest people 
 on earth in the streets of London cheering the King, and I wondered 
 what they were cheering for. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, your opposition is primarily against govern- 
 mental competition with private business? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. That is true. 
 
 The Chairman. You regret the existence of fourth-class mail mat- 
 ter in its present operation ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. As it exists now ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. No; I do not think that is serious. 
 
 The Chairman. But your principle is established there? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Let us say then that the principle is established. 
 
 The Chairman. You would not favor the repeal of it or legislation 
 doing away with fourth-class matter, would you? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. No; T would not ; not at present. 
 
 The Chairman. What benefit does the fourth-class mail matter 
 bring to the people of this country as it now exists? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I think in small packages and books and matters 
 of that kind, their exchange in a small way, without disturbing 
 the commerce of the country as it is established. Now, there is one 
 other matter I would like to bring out. In business it is a well- 
 
PARCEL POST. 501 
 
 known fact that handling goods in large quantities reduces the cost 
 of handling them. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the key to the success of a mail-order 
 house is it not; the ability to take advantage of the low rates? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. The key to the success of the mail-order house, as 
 I understand it, is the lack of loyalty of the manufacturer to the 
 retail trade, and if you will allow me to explain 
 
 The Chairman. I wish you would elaborate on that. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. The catalogue house buys practically in jobbing 
 quantities. There is no doubt but what they buy at practically the 
 same price as jobbers. They take advantage of this right of buying 
 as jobbers and they make a price on their goods, on some staple goods, 
 just a shade under the price the retail dealer can compete at and pay 
 his cost of doing business. In some lines they quote at cost or less 
 than cost. 
 
 The Chairman. In their catalogues? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. In their catalogues. The goods are actually quoted 
 at less than cost on certain lines, and they will nearly always pick 
 out well-known articles. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any knowledge of actual shading of 
 prices by the mail-order houses in their catalogue prices? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. You mean in cutting prices ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. No; any quantity in the past four years or in the 
 past five years. 
 
 The Chairman. They do that, do they? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. They do it. But they do it for advertising purposes. 
 
 The Chairman. But the great bulk of their customers, assuming 
 that, the bulk of their business is among individuals rather than 
 country stores 
 
 Mr. Norvell. They sell very little in the country stores. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, how do they get any benefit in the shading 
 of prices? A man a thousand miles away orders $10 worth of 
 goods, sends his money in for the order according to the catalogue 
 price; is there a rebate sent back by the mail-order house to the 
 customer ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. No ; they cut the prices right m their catalogues. 
 
 The Chairman. Who gets that cut ? 
 
 Senator Bryan. I do not know, but my impression is that you 
 misunderstand it, Mr. Norvell. Did you mean to say that they sold 
 under the price stated in the catalogue? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Oh, no. I mean to say that they cut established 
 
 prices. 
 
 The Chairman. I mean their own prices? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. No; I do not think that. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I understand your statement was that they would 
 make prices less than that at which the retail dealer could afford 
 to sell, for the purpose of advertising? 
 
 Mr Norvell. No; here is my idea— that they take well-known 
 manufacturers' brands. Take a well-known handsaw, say, possibly 
 known all over the country. The name Smith or Jones on that hand- 
 saw is thoroughly well known. They will take an item like that and 
 quote it at cost, because everybody knows it. In other words, i± the 
 
502 PARCEL POST. 
 
 retailer's price is $1.75 on that handsaw, and they will quote it at 
 $1.25, the dullest man knows that he is getting 
 
 The Chairman. Every business house does that. They sell some 
 of their goods at a low price as an indirect advertisement to increase 
 their customers and good will. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Not as catalogue houses have done. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not see that you can legislate in anything 
 of that kind. That is a personal equation of managing and purely 
 within legal lines, is it not? You would do it yourself, would you 
 not? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. My personal views are these: That if the Sherman 
 law is to prevent men from bodying together to hold up prices, it 
 is only a question of time until the Sherman law will be interpreted 
 in such a way that it will protect the trade of the country against 
 the methods of piracy in trade to the entire demoralization of busi- 
 ness, and it is just as much the duty of the Government to protect 
 in one case as to protect in another case. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you say, Mr. Norvell, that for a merchant to 
 sell any goods that he carries at cost to him, if he sees fit to do so, 
 is piracy? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I say this: That for a catalogue house 
 
 The Chairman. Why make a distinction between catalogue houses 
 and any other line of business? I am not criticizing your position, 
 but I am trying to get your line of thought in this direction. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Let us take the position, for instance, of the manu- 
 facturer who probably through his father and his grandfather ahead 
 of him, through conscientious workmanship, have built up a reputa- 
 tion on a line of business. They have made better goods than other 
 people and have sold these goods at a fair profit. Now, any mer- 
 chant that takes that line and can demoralize that line, I call that 
 commercial piracy ; where they put that man out of business. 
 
 The Chairman. That is not answering my question. My specific 
 question is this : Do you hold as piracy on the part of any merchant 
 the sale of any of his goods at cost price to him ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. With the object of fooling the public, yes. As I 
 started to say, this customer reads that this saw is sold at this price 
 and he concludes that they sell everything at those low prices and 
 therefore sends on his order for a whole line of goods and he is charged 
 a good stiff price on the goods that he is not posted on. He is fooled 
 constantly and they have fooled the people. I call that commercial 
 piracy, ^Yhen that sort of thing is done. 
 
 The Chairman. It would be perfectly legitimate if the merchant 
 owed $10,000 and his paper came due and he had to sell his goods at 
 cost in order to get money to save his credit and pay off his indebted- 
 ness. That would be all right? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. It depends upon the object that a man has. What a 
 man does through necessity is not always as culpable as what a man 
 does under other conditions. 
 
 The Chairman. But we have to operate along legal lines and can 
 not always draw a line of demarcation between necessity and desire 
 or selfishness. All business and all human action is based on selfish- 
 ness or self-interest. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. But you know there is an enlightened self-interest. 
 
PAECEL POST. 503 
 
 The Chairman. That is a discussion that we can not well go into 
 here, or we would not finish these hearings. You hold, as I take it, that 
 -the mail-order house is able to undersell the country merchant gen- 
 erally throughout the country and that its success is primarily due 
 to that. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. No; I did not say that. I said that on certain lines 
 of well-known goods that he quotes the price to make an impression 
 and to fool the public, and he does fool the public. 
 
 The Chairman. Has that bearing of the question anything to do 
 with the parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. In what way? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. With an organization of that kind, where they have 
 proved by the tariff that such is their policy of doing business — of 
 tooling the public — when we have a parcel post you will largely in- 
 crease their power for doing harm to the trade of the country. 
 
 The Chairman. But suppose, Mr. Norvell, that 90 -per cent of the 
 business of the mail-order houses was done by freight, would con- 
 tinue to be done by freight even if our weight were increased from 4 
 pounds to 11 pounds and the rate reduced, would you then ask for 
 legislation compelling the mail-order houses selling everything low 
 at a profit 
 
 Mr. Norvell. No ; that does not follow. What I was going to say 
 was that in the hardware house at St. Louis of which I am a director 
 we carry about 75,000 different items. If you put an 11-pound limit 
 in and we can send by mail, then we can send 75 per cent of our en- 
 tire stock by that means. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the average weight of the 75,000 different 
 items that you deal in in your house ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I could not tell that offhand. 
 
 Senator Bryan. It would be less than 11 pounds, would it not? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Yes; less than 11 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Is your business done by sending out articles in 
 single packages? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. No; it is done in broken packages; just as the mer- 
 chant orders them. 
 
 The Chairman. The bulk of your business is in full packages, an 
 aggregate of packages, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Probably not 25 per cent by full packages. 
 
 The Chairman. In your outside business — that is, outside of your 
 own citv — not 25 per cent ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. About 25 per cent, I would say. Most of the pack- 
 ages are full packages. 
 
 The Chairman. The aggregate of your business, then, 75 per cent 
 of it, is in broken packages? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Seventy-five per cent of it is in broken packages. 
 
 The Chairman. The capital of the company is what ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. It is about two and a half million dollars. 
 
 The Chairman. And annual business? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. About $10,000,000— over $10,000,000. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the weight of your packages? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. There is a case, for instance, that contains 6 dozen 
 hatchets and a box inside of that that contains probably half a dozen. 
 
 .21845— vol 2—12 16 
 
04 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. What would be the weight of the package inside 
 hat contains the half dozen ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I should guess that (he average would be under 
 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you ship that by parcel post at double 
 ho rates you could ship it by freight? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Certainly not, unless we could ship to Alaska by 
 iarcel post, or to Oregon. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you ship to Oregon by parcel post and 
 iay twice the rates that you could reach Oregon by freight ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Certainly not ; we would not do that unless there was 
 
 question of time or haste. 
 
 The Chairman. Given existing conditions in business, in your 
 pinion, can the mail-order house sell cheaper to the country con- 
 umer than the local storekeeper? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. If they desire to do so. 
 
 The Chairman. Do they do so? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Now? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Of course, you have to figure on the freight from 
 he catalogue house to the consumer, adding the freight to the price. 
 
 would say that they do not, on the average, sell any cheaper. 
 
 The Chairman. Who sells the cheaper? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I should say that on the average, figuring the freight 
 lways and the express charges, that the country dealer does. 
 
 The Chairman. The country dealer will use the cheapest method 
 >f transportation, will he not? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Naturally. 
 
 The Chairman. Except when he has a hurry-up order ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the question of parcel post comes down, 
 Tom your point of view, as to competition between the Government 
 tnd that branch of its enlargement and the transportation com' 
 )anies ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. May I say a few words on that subject, simply ex- 
 pressing my personal views. I was much interested in Europe to 
 iotice that on every passenger train they had a freight car, and this 
 "reight car carried what they called fast freight, and the time on this 
 ast freight was the same as passenger service. In other words, I 
 hipped some trunks from London to Paris by fast freight. I took 
 he same train, and when I arrived at Paris the trunks arrived at the 
 same time I did. Now, what I am in favor of is in the Government 
 ;;oing into parcel post 
 
 The Chairman. But it is already in it. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Not to any serious extent. 
 
 The Chairman. We carry 1.1 per cent of the total pieces of mail 
 •arried by the United States Government to-day by what we may 
 erm parcel post — merchandise or fourth-class matter. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. What I was going to outline was if the railroads 
 A'ant to advance their rates, why can not they inaugurate a fast- 
 freight service with freight cars and have them run by passenger 
 :rains? I have talked with a dozen leading railroad men and they 
 
PARCEL POST. 505 
 
 tell me they can do that. For instance, the Pennsylvania, a company 
 from St. Louis has two trains a day; a 24-hour train and a slower 
 train. They could easily attach a freight car on that fast train. If 
 the railroads can do that, why can not the Government ? 
 
 The _ Chairman. That is a matter for the Interstate Commerce 
 Commission to take up and work out. It has not any bearing, under 
 existing conditions, on the question we have before us. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. It seems to me that it is the policy of the Govern- 
 ment in entering into competition with the citizens in business. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not grant your premise at all in reference to 
 your statement that it is the policy of the Government to enter into 
 competition with citizens in business. It is the policy of the Gov- 
 ernment to increase the general welfare of the Nation as a whole, and 
 I think it is the desideratum of every legislator to enact legislation 
 that will increase the general welfare of the citizens as a whole with 
 the least possible injury to individuals. As far as I am personally 
 concerned, the general welfare viewpoint would be the strongest with 
 me, and if I were satisfied that it would be greatly increased for the 
 Nation as a whole, even to the injury of a few individuals, I should 
 feel .that it was my duty to injure the few individuals on the theory 
 of the greatest good to the greatest number, which, as I understand, 
 is the basic principle of organized society. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I agree with you, Senator, but now may I outline a 
 little matter in this country that is very different from that in 
 Europe ? This country has-been developing very rapidly. 
 
 The Chairman. Due to the enormous natural resources and the 
 virility of our citizenship. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Yes ; and, now, what has led or assisted to that de- 
 velopment? I claim that the small merchant and the small towns 
 have. 
 
 The Chairman. Whose success depends entirely upon transporta- 
 tion facilities. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. The pioneer goes out West. I traveled in the West 
 in the early eighties, and I saw those men who established those farms 
 in what they call the " short-grass " region. They went out there 
 with practically nothing. They were carried by the local merchants. 
 They supported those people through bad times. They helped de- 
 velop that country. Now, in a system where you have not small 
 towns and you have not small merchants I do not believe we can 
 develop, and therefore I believe that the parcel post would injure the 
 country. 
 
 The Chairman. But, Mr. Norvell, you predicate your whole state- 
 ment on the admission that it is going to do so and so, without dem- 
 onstrating that it is going to do so and so. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. It was done in Europe. 
 
 The Chairman. But my information from various sources is en- 
 tirely different from your experience. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. If you will put my experience against that of a 
 Government official, some young fellow, I claim that my report is 
 better than his. I met some of those officials abroad. 
 
 The Chairman. I agree with you, that I would rather have your 
 opinion upon a question of this nature particularly affecting your 
 line of business after 30 years' operation than some young Govern- 
 
506 PARCEL POST. 
 
 ment clerk. I should consider most carefully any statement that 
 you made, as I should that of any other gentleman on a subject in 
 which he was versed and in the nature of a specialist, but where a 
 department of the Government gives out a statement of facts to 
 another Government I assume that those facts are not collated nor 
 the deductions made by some clerk in the department. 
 
 Mr. Noevell. I may answer you there, Senator, by saying that in 
 England I talked with some of the country merchants and bankers 
 and my point of view was entirely different from their point. I 
 talked from the point of view of what was best for the welfare and 
 education of the people — of the common people. 
 
 The Chaieman. But you would not assume to go to England and 
 -pend three weeks and put your judgment as to what was the best 
 for their interests against the combined judgment of the citizenship 
 of the country that had been living there generations ? 
 
 Mr. Noevell. No. What I started to say, Mr. Chairman, was this : 
 That those gentlemen in England are trained under a different sys- 
 tem than ours. They have the aristocratic system. Their idea is 
 for the common people to work for them. They do not speak of the 
 people as we do of the people, and when I said to them, "JEow 
 about the development in the small town of those country dealers ? " 
 if I would tell you the expression that one of them used it would not 
 be appropriate reading. The whole thing is run for the upper 
 class. You take a report that comes from the upper class — I would 
 not attach any importance to it. Theif point of view is different 
 from our point of view. 
 
 The Chaieman. Human nature is the same the world over when 
 you come down to the analysis of the forces concerning human action. 
 They are just the same in Europe as they are in this country. 
 
 Mr. Noevell. The conditions make the opportunities of the people. 
 
 The Chaieman. That is very true. 
 
 Mr. Noevell. Now, conditions there are different and the oppor- 
 tunity is not there for the poor man. 
 
 The Chaieman. Not to the same extent, most assuredly. Ac- 
 cording to our view — I think we all agree on that or we wouldn't 
 remain in the country — the greatest opportunities are in the United 
 States of any known portion of the world to-day. 
 
 Mr. Noevell. I came home convinced of that fact. 
 
 The Chaieman- The particular point we have under consideration 
 is who is going to be injured and who is going to be benefited by the 
 enlargement of the present scope of our parcel post. We want to 
 confine ourselves to that particular phase. 
 
 Mr. Noevell. In my opinion, to change the system as it exists at 
 present would injure the small towns. 
 
 The Chaieman. But you predicate all your remarks with the 
 hypothesis that someone is going to be injured. What we want to 
 know is how anyone is going to be injured ? 
 
 Mr. Noevell. They have been injured in Europe by the elimina- 
 tion of the small towns. 
 
 The Chaieman. But you state that the conditions are vastlv dif- 
 ferent between Europe and this country. 
 
 Mr. Noevell. They are different. 
 
PARCEL POST. 507 
 
 The Chairman. From one point of view you don't want to adopt 
 experience in European countries and from another you do. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I have read in the magazines some of those articles 
 that seem to be inspired about what a wonderful thing it is for the 
 consumer in Europe ; the farmer, for instance, with his eggs and but- 
 ter, to reach the consumer in some far distant city, and how they 
 can exchange from one nation to another. I read that before I went 
 over there. 
 
 The Chairman. There is nothing of that kind before the com- 
 mittee. , 
 
 Mr. Norvell. What I want to say is that in England, for instance, 
 the farmers can not produce what they eat in their own neighbor- 
 hood. They can not produce enough eggs and butter. England is 
 importing these things from other countries, and when they talk 
 about those English farmers shipping to other countries 
 
 The Chairman. But they are not all in the hen business. Some 
 of them produce more eggs than they can eat themselves. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. They sell them in their own neighborhood. I read 
 that chickens had their legs tied together in England and were 
 shipped by mail. They can ship a bird in a cage in Europe by mail. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a question of classification. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. The point I wish to make is that in England condi- 
 tions are so different. For instance, the people in this country do not 
 realize that you can take a train in England and strike the south 
 coast in one hour. 
 
 The Chairman. You have 700 miles in an air line in England. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. The distances are so short there that perishable mat- 
 ter can be sent by mail. 
 
 The Chairman. If they carried.it and the time was the same— that 
 is, the railroad schedule was the same — it would not make any differ- 
 ence whether a shipment were made 700 miles in England or 700 
 miles in the United States, would it ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. As a matter of fact, over there the tremendous busi- 
 ness they do is in very small areas. The haul, I understand, is 40 
 miles — the average haul. - 
 
 The Chairman. I can not dispute your statement, because I have 
 not the data to do so ; but I would say that if that were authentic — 
 with no reflection upon you — that is, if you make it authentic, I 
 assume that it is. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I have heard that the average haul in Europe was 
 40 miles. 
 
 The Chairman. I understood you to say England. Now you say 
 Europe. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Yes ; in Europe the average postal haul is 40 miles. 
 
 The Chairman. We have that data. I thought you meant on busi- 
 ness generally. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. The point I started to elaborate awhile ago and 
 became sidetracked on was the cost of doing business in Europe as 
 compared with the cost of doing business here. I supposed that the 
 cost of doing business in Europe was very much less than in the 
 United States, and I was paralyzed to find that the cost of doing 
 business was very much higher. I went over there a free trader and 
 
508 PARCEL POST. 
 
 I came back a protectionist for this reason: I expected to find retail 
 prices in Europe very much lower than retail prices here. I can only 
 state on hardware. There is a duty on pocketknives in this country 
 of 100 per cent. I expected to find in London, for instance, low 
 prices on pocketknives. I found that the price on a four-bladed, 
 pearl-handled pocketknife was 8 shillings, the same as it is here. 
 
 The Chairman. Made where? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. In Sheffield. They were just as high as they are 
 here in the retail stores. In Germany it was the same thing, and in 
 France it, was the same thing. Their retail prices are not lower than 
 they are in the United States, except on certain dry goods and cloth- 
 ing, and things of that kind. The point I wish to make is that with 
 this talk of a parcel post 
 
 The Chairman. Who is it going to help ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I suppose that the probable theory is that it will 
 help everybody. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the argument you are making now is that 
 an increased facility to everybody in the United States would be 
 detrimental to business? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. The point I attempted to argue is this : In the United 
 States the average-size hardware order of a jobber is $40, in- 
 cluding express orders, mail orders, and all. The average size in 
 England and in France is $5 — one-eighth of the size. I am arguing 
 that when you reduce the size of the order you increase the cost of 
 handling it; that as the unit of your business is reduced the cost is 
 increased. 
 
 The Chairman. Let me ask you this : All your opposition to par- 
 cel post is predicated on the assumption that the Government is 
 going to be a competitor with the transportation companies. Is that 
 correct? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. No ; the idea I am trying to get at is that where the 
 jobber now has an average order of $40 you are going to cut him down 
 to an order of $8 in size. 
 
 The Chairman. The jobber is going to ship where he can ship the 
 cheapest, is he not ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. If you have a parcel post ? 
 
 The Chairman. Kindly answer my question. Is he not going to 
 ship where he can ship the cheapest? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Certainly. 
 
 The Chairman. If he can ship twice as cheaply by railroad or 
 boat, he will ship that way in preference to shipping at double the 
 cost for transportation through the mails if he has the opportunity? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Except the human element that comes in there ; that 
 merchants when they can get 11 pounds by mail will let their stock 
 run down. They will not be as careful to watch the stock and con- 
 sider ahead. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, wouldn't that benefit them to the extent 
 that they would not have so much money locked up on the shelf? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. No ; because the cost of doing business is always paid 
 by the buyer and as the retail merchant increases the cost of doing 
 business lie will have to add that; cost to his prices. 
 
PARCEL POST. 509 
 
 The Chairman. Then the buyer must be benefited to the extent 
 that the merchant is injured, according to your statement that the 
 buyer has got to pay the cost of the operation. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. As you split up the order you will increase the cost 
 • of doing business, which will be added to the prices. The thing that 
 surprised me in Europe was the high retail prices to the consumer. 
 
 The Chairman. Given a $40 order, the merchant is not going to 
 split that up into four 10-pound packages when he has to pay twice 
 as much to send those 10-pound packages through the mail as he has 
 to send the $40 order by freight. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Well, Mr. Chairman, you will allow me to use your 
 own phrase of a little while ago. You said that the merchant would 
 be benefited because the consumer could go to him with a catalogue 
 and say to him : " Here is an article I want. Will you order thisby 
 parcel post? " 
 
 The Chairman. I decline to have that statement put in my mouth, 
 because I think the testimony will show here that I made no such 
 statement. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Then I misunderstood you. Let me put it this way ; 
 That if the parcel-post idea is to be developed and a customer would 
 come to a merchant here in town and say : " I wish you would order 
 that for me " — he wants that immediately and he will not wait until 
 the merchant can make out a written order; he has to order that 
 immediately. 
 
 The Chairman. Neither will he send to the mail-order house if 
 he can get it from the merchant in his vicinity. Given a desire, the 
 earliest gratification of that desire is the controlling factor. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Let me tell you, Senator, that right now the trouble 
 with the country merchant is that the man who gets this catalogue 
 from the catalogue house does not give the country merchant an 
 opportunity to compete. He gets the catalogue in which the goods 
 are written up and from their description of the goods he describes 
 this clock or this Christmas present that he wants. He never gives 
 that country merchant an opportunity to compete. 
 
 The Chairman. Then what you want is legislation abolishing 
 catalogue houses. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. No; what we want is to leave the transportation 
 facilities in such a way that they will not favor the catalogue houses 
 to the detriment of the country merchant. 
 
 The Chairman. On the contrary, I believe the extension of the 
 parcel post will be a benefit absolutely to the country merchant and 
 to the consumer, and the only interests that I can see which will be 
 affected detrimentally from the study that I have given the question, 
 are the express companies and the mail-order houses themselves. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I have just returned from Europe, and over there 
 1 found conditions exceedingly bad under their system. What they 
 are having now are bread riots in England. 
 
 The Chairman. Due to parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Largely due to their system, and parcel post is a 
 part of that system and that system is the high cost of living and 
 the high cost of living is brought about by their cost of doing busi- 
 ness. Let me illustrate how they do things in Europe. It is like a 
 hotel I lived at there, where you have one man take your grip from 
 
510 PARCEL POST. 
 
 the room to the elevator, he wants a tip— a small one, it is true— and 
 another- 
 
 The Chairman. That has nothing to do with the subject we have 
 under consideration, Mr. Norvell, and there are a number of gentle- 
 men here waiting to be heard. I would like you to confine your 
 views particularly to the parcel-post question as closely as you can. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. That is what I am trying to do, Senator. The point 
 is that the parcel-post system in Europe has trained the people to 
 buy from hand to mouth in a peanut way. They go to a dealer who 
 orders the goods and the goods go by parcel post It is such a small 
 transaction and has to go out through the machinery of the parcel- 
 post system and that is added to the cost of doing business and it 
 makes the cost of doing the business much more expensive than it 
 is at present where we do business in larger units. 
 
 The Chairman. Awhile ago you said you went over a free-trader 
 and came back a protectionist, because it cost more to do business than 
 it does in this country. Was that so ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. No ; but the reason that I came back a protectionist 
 instead of a free-trader was because I saw that in Europe there are 
 two characters of goods sold. On the higher quality of goods the 
 United States has nothing whatever to fear from Europe; and the 
 cheaper quality, that which a man would hardly use — the people 
 buy it over there because their wages are so small. If ever that 
 cheap stuff is let loose in this country it will bring down the standard 
 of our higher-grade goods. 
 
 The Chairman. Would your opposition to an enlargement of the 
 present scope of our fourth-class mail matter be minimized if the 
 rates adopted did not become competitive with existing freight rates? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. That would not be the question at all. It is not the 
 question of rates as much as it is the breaking up of the unit of 
 business. The rates are so competitive that there will be no business 
 done — no harm will be done. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, there are express companies; are there not? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I am sorry to say that there are. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you use them, or, rather, did you use them in 
 your business? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. We are compelled to use them because we have to 
 have goods in haste or in a hurry at times. 
 
 The Chairman. The consumer pays for it? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. No ; it comes out of our profits. In the long run it 
 may come from the general expenses.of doing business. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you sell goods f. o. b. at your stores or fac- 
 tories ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. F o. b. at the store. 
 
 The Chairman. F. o. b. at the store. Then, if they are shipped 
 under direction of the consumer by freight, he pays for it ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. He pays for it ; but when we run short of goods our- 
 selves and we have to buy from New Britain, Conn., then we have 
 to pay for it. 
 
 The Cpiairman. You would lose that sale if some competitor of 
 yours had goods on his shelves and you couldn't get them, wouldn't 
 you; so that in the price that you make you figure that additional 
 expense against the consumer, do you not? 
 
PARCEL POST. 511 
 
 Mr. Nokvell. No ; we do not. 
 
 The Chairman. It is to retain the customer, so that it is an ad- 
 vantage to you in the long run by having that increased facility for 
 a hurry-up order in case you have not got the goods yourself on your 
 own shelves. You are not injured. You are benefited? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. You mean by that express charge ? 
 
 The Chairman. You would be more benefited if you could get it 
 cheaper, of course. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Naturally; and naturally if we could not be bene- 
 fited we would not order by it. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that all, Mr. Norvell, on the subject? 
 
 Mr. Nokvell. I think, Mr. Chairman, I have covered about all my 
 points. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you, indeed, for 
 presenting your views to the committee. So far as I am concerned, 
 I think you have submitted some new information. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. The point I wish to make is this, that on this propo- 
 sition I believe, as a western man, the West is still in its infancy, and 
 this parcel post is going to injure the West. It is going to hold the 
 West back for years instead of allowing us to develop along .our 
 present lines. 
 
 The Chairman. Your opposition is primarily to the injury that, 
 in your opinion, would come to the country merchant ; is that true ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. The country merchant, and through the country 
 merchant to the country town, and through that to the western jobber. 
 They are all affected. None of us stand alone. 
 
 The Chairman. Supposing there was a general rate adopted in- 
 creasing the weight limit to 11 pounds and making the postage rate 
 6 cents for 8 ounces, 8 cents between 8 and 12 ounces, 10_ cents 
 between 12 and 16 ounces or 1 pound, and then 4 cents additional 
 for every, pound cr fraction of a pound up to 11 pounds, and sup- 
 posing that a rate was adopted of just 50 per cent of that schedule, 
 or scale, of postal charges and rural deliveries, or for a zone limit 
 of say 50 miles from every post office, so that every country merchant 
 would have the privilege of shipping where we utilize the fourth- 
 class mail facilities within radius of 50 miles of the town. Would 
 that, in your opinion, be a protection to the country merchant ? 
 
 Mr. Norvell. In my judgment, if it stopped there it would not do 
 serious harm to the country merchant, but I am of the opinion that 
 it would not stop there. It is simply an entering wedge to a general 
 parcel post. A general parcel post would, in my opinion, obliterate 
 all geographical lines in this country. 
 
 The Chairman. I think we have pretty clearly your views in ref- 
 erence to the parcel-post question, but I want to get a specific answer 
 to the question that I just put. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Do you mean that it would be simply confined to 
 the rural routes ? 
 
 The Chairman. Say a 50-mile zone radius and that we have two 
 rates, the general rate which I have indicated in the question and 
 then the local rate which I have indicated— 50 per cent of whatever 
 the general rate was either on rural routes or an alternative, say 50- 
 mile zone radius, or a 36-mile zone radius. 
 
512 PABCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. Let me understand. For instance, we will say here 
 is Terre Haute, Ind., and there would be a 50-mile radius around 
 that town, and the same would apply to St. Louis or any other town. 
 
 The Chairman. It would be twice that rate from there as it is from 
 here to here. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I would be opposed to that on the principle that it 
 would not stand. 
 
 The Chairman. If you felt confident that that would be the ex- 
 tent of the increased scope of the service you would see no serious 
 objection so far as this organization of existing business mehtods is 
 concerned — from the producer to the consumer. 
 
 Mr. Norvell. I think that would of course limit the evil very 
 much indeed ; there is no doubt of that. 
 
 The Chairman. Thank you very much for the views you have pre- 
 sented to us. 
 
TESTIMONY OF MR. J. E. MOOREHEAD. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Moorehead, it is necessary that you be sworh. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Please state your age and present occupation ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Forty-nine years of age. I am secretary of the 
 National Federation of Retail Merchants ; I am also a retail lumber 
 merchant. 
 
 The Chairman. In your appearance before the committee do you 
 come in your official capacity? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And in your testimony, for the benefit of the com- 
 mittee, when you present your own views, will you kindly designate 
 that distinction ; otherwise, we will assume the views presented repre- 
 sent the views of your organization. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Yes, sir; I believe I represent the views of the 
 organization contained in a short paper which I have here. 
 
 The Chairman. You have a paper? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Yes ; and I believe I could read it in five minutes. 
 
 The Chairman. If you would kindly do so the committee will be 
 greatly obliged. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. On October 18 and 19 last, there assembled in 
 the city of Chicago a body of business men, which we believe 
 for numbers, personnel, constituency, unity of purpose, and en- 
 thusiasm had not heretofore gathered together in this country. The 
 meeting was composed of 233 representatives from 35 States, repre- 
 senting some 15 different lines of retail trade, having a membership 
 of more than 212,000. It was discovered for the first time that all 
 of these men had been, and were, thinking along the same lines, 
 were facing the same conditions, and were attempting to solve the 
 same problems as they appeared to them, without regard to the 
 character or kind of business in which they were engaged. Out of 
 this meeting was formed a National Federation of Retail Merchants 
 having for its object, as laid down in the constitution, the following; 
 
 Suction 1. To safeguard and serve the iuterests of all retail merchants. 
 
 Sec. 2. To oppose all unjust legislation inimical to retail merchants. 
 
 Sec. 3. To promote all just legislation designed for the benefit of retail mer- 
 chants. 
 
 Sec. 4. To demonstrate the necessity of retail merchants to manufacturers, 
 wholesalers, and consumers of the United States. 
 
 Sec. 5. To cooperate with all other organizations having for their objects 
 the advancement of the best interests of commerce. 
 
 After perfecting an organization, electing a set of officers, I had 
 the honor and responsibility of being chosen secretary of its board of 
 directors, and I have come here to submit for your consideration some 
 
 513 
 
514 PARCEL POST. 
 
 observations relative to some of the conditions that concern the small 
 retail business men of the country, and it is for these 212,000 officially 
 and for five times that many more I shall speak. 
 
 Bradstreet reports 1,778,425 as the number of manufacturers, 
 wholesalers, jobbers, retailers, bankers, and trust companies as doing 
 business in this country. I am advised that there are something like 
 28,000 banks and trust companies thus listed, which, deducted from 
 the above number, leaves 1,750,000 manufacturers, wholesalers, job- 
 bers, and retailers ; and I am safe in saying that more than one and a 
 quarter million of these -are retail merchants in fact, men of small 
 means absolutely dependent upon their retail business for the support 
 of themselves and their families. It is safe to say that each of them 
 employs directly three people. This million or more of firms and in- 
 dividuals, therefore, constitute a considerable percentage of our popu- 
 lation when we add to their numbers their families and dependents, 
 and when we consider that the progress and prosperity of the thou- 
 sands of communities in which they do business largely depend upon 
 these retail merchants. And I may add all these merchants and their 
 families and employees are consumers upon whom the farmer 
 directly depends for his home market — the best market that he has 
 to depend upon. 
 
 There is a great outcry in this country just now for the elimina- 
 tion of the ''middleman," better known as the retail merchant, 
 although the wholesaler and the jobber may be classed as such. 
 
 The Chair?ian. Pardon an interruption just there. Where is there 
 any such outcry for the elimination of the " middleman " or the 
 destruction of the country merchant ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Well, sir, I could not give you any particular 
 source just now ; possibly I could if I had the time to think, but it 
 seems to be the general opinion over the country that the middleman 
 is responsible for the high cost of living in this country. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that is very interesting. I was not aware of 
 that. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Politicians sometimes agree on that. 
 
 The Chairman. I was not aware of that, and for the broad asser- 
 tion that there was a general sentiment to that effect, I supposed you 
 would be able to give the committee some concrete illustrations of 
 where this idea existed. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I think it has been passed upon largely by a great 
 many organizations, farmers' organizations especially, that the mid- 
 dleman is responsible for the high cost of living. Eecently I read an 
 account of a paper that came in here officially from some gentleman 
 whose name I do not recall just now, who reported that the great 
 high cost of living was due to the profits of the middleman. I think 
 that seems to be the general opinion the country over. Certainly we 
 get it from the mail-order houses. I could file with you, if I had it 
 here, a copy of a page from a mail-order house in my line of business 
 which says that they can sell goods for one-half the price for which 
 I can sell them. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that true, that they can do that ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. No, sir ; it is not true. 
 
 The Chairman. You can compete with the mail-order house? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Yes, sir ; I always do. 
 
PAKCBL POST. 515 
 
 The Chairman. I wish you would please send to me, if you will, 
 that information. 1 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I will be glad to do it. 
 
 The Chairman. Pardon the interruption of your reading. 
 
 Mr. Mooeehead. I want to say here, as my personal opinion and 
 from my personal experience, there is not a single article in my line 
 of business which I can not meet the mail-order-house competition 
 with. 
 
 The Chairman. Under the existing conditions ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Under any conditions. You understand, Senator,, 
 the parcel-post would not affect my business individually. There is 
 nothing in my business that will ever be shipped by parcel post. 
 
 Senator Bryan. What is your business? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Lumber. I do not believe they will ever ship two- 
 by-fours by parcel post. 
 
 Our answer to this demand is that we do not propose to be elimi- 
 nated if concerted action on our part should be able to show the Con- 
 gress of the United States and the legislatures of the several States 
 that we have a place in the economy of the country and that our 
 preservation is for the best interests of the greatest number for their 
 economical, political, and social welfare. In considering the ques- 
 tion before you to-day, that of the establishment of the parcel post, I 
 would ask that you be very careful in determining whether or not 
 the demand for the enaction of such a law comes from the sources as 
 it appears upon the surface. There are certain elements in our 
 national make-up which we can understand and do believe will be the 
 great beneficiaries of such favorable action on your part. 
 
 The Chairman. In that connection I think you will find coopera- 
 tion of the Congress of the United States with you in the desire for 
 the greatest good to the greatest number. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If you will pardon me is there a proposition 
 here to eliminate the country merchant in any way? The gentleman 
 is assuming our purpose is to eliminate the local merchant by a sys- 
 tem of parcel post. Is that the theory ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I do not mean to intimate to the Senator that we 
 think you are trying to do that, but we believe that a parcel post 
 would help to do that. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Have you given the reasons why you believe 
 that, in detail, specifically ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I have not, sir, here. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Your judgment is good, but we would like to 
 know the reasons upon which you base it in the detail. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. In what 1 shall say here I would be willing to 
 grant everything that is claimed for a parcel post, that it would 
 cheapen the transportation of merchandise, and in that way a cus- 
 tomer or consumer in buying, might save a little, but I do believe 
 and I do claim that where he might save a few cents, if the people 
 in any community should go far enough in going around the retail 
 merchants of the'ir community to buy what they needed, the com- 
 munity would go down and out, and not only the merchants would 
 be injured, but land values would depreciate, and in the end he would 
 lose a great deal more than he makes on a purchase outside of his own 
 community. 
 
 1 Not yet received. 
 
516 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. You are predicating your opposition upon the 
 assumption that the country merchant is going to be eliminated. 
 What the committee would like is your demonstration as to the elimi- 
 nation of the country merchant. The committee is just as anxious 
 as you are for the protection of the country merchant and every 
 interest in the country as a whole, approaching the subject from the 
 same point of view you do with regard to the greatest good to the 
 greatest number. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What I want to know is how this works against 
 the country merchant? I want the details, the operation of it? Of 
 course we can get hundreds of opinions from superficial observations. 
 
 Mr. Mooeehead. It would educate the people to trade away from 
 home; they are being educated to-day, but this would simply be 
 another link in the chain. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, in what way would it? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Because a great many people believe that by 
 ordering an article away from home they can buy it much cheaper. 
 Now, that is true with regard to thousands of people all over the 
 country, and this is something that has been growing more and more. 
 There are thousands of people who have been educated through the 
 mail-order catalogue, through the daily press, and through the farm 
 journal that the home man is robbing him to such an extent that 
 there are thousands of people living around the communities who 
 never give the home man a chance to figure on their wants or needs. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, but that is a condition that now exists. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Yes, sir ; and it is getting worse. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, of course a parcel post hasn't anything to 
 do with that. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I think a parcel post would help it very much. 
 
 Senator Bristow. We have a very limited parcel post at the pres- 
 ent time. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I am not claiming the present parcel post would, 
 but I think the people would have an idea that a parcel post would 
 give them something for nothing. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, but that is vague and indefinite. Let's get 
 down to business. Granting that the people have a tendency to go 
 away from home for what they want if they think they can get it 
 cheaper, they are doing that now to a greater or less degree and the 
 mail-order houses are flourishing. There is no doubt about that 
 under the present conditions. Now, the purpose of the parcel post 
 is not in the interest of the mail-order house. The opponents of 
 the parcel post have made a good many people think the parcel post 
 that was proposed would be in the interest of the mail-order houses, 
 and, as a matter of fact, the mail-order houses are not in favor of the 
 parcel post proposition that I think will be considered by Congress, 
 because they do not believe it will help them. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I think you are quite right in that, that they 
 would not be satisfied with a limited parcel post, that it would be only 
 an entering wedge and you could not satisfy them. I am satisfied of 
 that. 
 
 Senator Bristow. We are not satisfying them. This legislation is 
 not for them. Now, you say it would be an entering wedge. That 
 goes back to the question that has been up so many times. Now, the 
 objection Avhich the country merchant has to the rural parcel post is 
 
PABCEL, POST. 51 Y 
 
 because he is afraid that will be an entering wedge to a general parcel 
 post. There is no doubt in your mind, I infer, that the rural parcel 
 post, where a parcel is taken from the office where the rural route 
 originates and is delivered to some patron on that route, that a rea- 
 sonable rate of postage would be an advantage to the local merchant 
 as well as to his customer in the country, because it gives a system of 
 delivery of goods to the country which does not now exist. Now, 
 would not that be a good thing for the country merchant? 
 
 Mr. Mooeehead. I think it would be limited for the reason that the 
 country merchant would not be able to sell his goods by pictures and 
 price lists the same as the mail-order houses are. 
 
 Senator Bkistow. The mail-order house has that advantage now. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bhistow. Then this would not be an advantage to anybody 
 else but the country merchant, the rural parcel post. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Unless goods were shipped in bulk and distributed 
 by teamsters or some. one else. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Then they would have to have a local agent, and 
 that is a local business institution, subject to taxation. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. They could have some one there, as they do in the 
 communities which I have in mind, a teamster who would pay no 
 taxes and pay no bills and pay no insurance and pay nothing to 
 support the community. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But he is getting his business by freight. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And he distributes it by the post office or in any 
 way that he can. He is simply there as an agent now. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. He is acting merely as an agent to handle the 
 business. Now, do you think that he has an advantage over the 
 country merchant? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. In my personal opinion, I do not think that a mail- 
 order house can sell goods any cheaper than the home merchant. 
 There is this about it — a home merchant performs a service that no 
 mail-order house or any outside person does. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I absolutely concur with you on that. I do not 
 think they sell as cheaply as the local merchant, as a rule, but there 
 may be a place where the local merchant has a monopoly. However, 
 as a rule, I think you can get better goods at home than by sending 
 for them by mail. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I am glad to hear you say that. I think that is 
 true. 
 
 Senator Bristow. This agent in this town who represents Sears, 
 Eoebuck & Co., we will say, as the condition is now has no advantage 
 over the country merchant, has he ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I think he is a positive injury to everybody in 
 the community, outside of what he contributes personally to the com- 
 munity. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is your opinion, and that may be true. In 
 doing business in that community he has not any advantage over 
 the local merchant, has he ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. He certainly injures the local merchant. 
 
 Senator Bristow. He hasn't any advantage ; he can not have any 
 advantage. 
 
518 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Mooeehead. He has this advantage 
 
 Senator Bristow. What is it? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. He will pay no taxes and no rent, and he will 
 not contribute anything to the general expense of the community: 
 but the merchant would. 
 
 The Chairman. He has to pay for his living. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. He has to pay for his living, but as a business 
 man he would pay no rent. He pays no taxes, unless a peddler's 
 license was put upon him. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Of course, that is true; but that condition ex- 
 ists now — doing business in that way in competition with the local 
 merchant ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Yes, sir; but I think it is very injurious. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I am not going to disagree with you as to that ; 
 that may be true or it may not, that he is injurious to the commu- 
 nity. I won't say he is, because I don't know, but suppose he is. 
 He is doing business in competition with the local merchant under 
 conditions as they exist. If this rural parcel post was established, 
 what advantage would that give him that he does not now have over 
 the local country merchant? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Oh, I don't know that he would have any, ex- 
 cept, as I say, he would do business without doing anything to sup- 
 port the community. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But he is doing that now. Could not the peo- 
 ple who live on the rural route telephone in to their country mer- 
 chants and tell them to send out something the next morning? They 
 could not telephone to this agent to do that, because the agent would 
 not have the article in stock. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. He can do that now, as I understand. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And have it come out the next morning ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Yes; can't he? 
 
 Senator Bristow. No. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. That raises the question of the ability of the 
 present rural-route carriers to carry any considerable weight. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, let's not go into that. We will demon- 
 strate to you that the rural carrier is perfectly able to do it, and 
 he ought to be doing it now, as far as that is concerned ; that is easy. 
 But the question is, Would not that Rural Delivery Service parcel 
 post give the country merchant, who has his stock on hand, an ad- 
 \ antage over the agent there, because his customer can telephone him 
 and ask that something be sent out that is in the store, and he could 
 not telephone the agent, for the agent would have to send to Chicago 
 for it. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. In some respects it might and in others it might 
 not, for the simple reason that a person living in the country is not 
 going to take the chance of buying, sight unseen, with the country 
 merchant, if he was buying away from home. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, that is here. We are not legislating to 
 take that away. That is a condition we are confronting now, and 
 I am simply saying that this rural-route delivery does not give this 
 agent of Sears, Roebuck & Co. an advantage over the country mer- 
 chant, but rather gives the country merchant, if there is an advan- 
 tage, an advantage over the agent, because the country merchant has 
 the stuff on hand, while the agent would have to send to Chicago. 
 
PARCEL POST. 519 
 
 Mr. Mooeehead. I would have to see that in practice before I 
 could say that that was true. 
 
 Senator Bbistow. Well, of course I just wanted to bring out that 
 point. My information in regard to the views of the rural merchants 
 in regard to this — I get a good many letters from them — is that they 
 are afraid if this is put in effect, while they really would like to 
 have this, they feel if it is put into law that there will be another 
 which will be followed up later, a general parcel post, and that they 
 would rather do without this than to take the chances of that being 
 an argument in favor of a general parcel post. 
 
 Mr. Mooeehead. I never heard that argument made by the retail 
 merchants. 
 
 Senator Bbistow. Well, that is the only argument I ever heard 
 against the rural-delivery parcel post — that it is an entering wedge. 
 
 Mr. Mooeehead. Yes; I think it is an entering wedge. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Did you ever hear a rural merchant oppose a 
 rural parcel post on any other grounds than that it would be an 
 entering wedge? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. No; I did not. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, that was my understanding. While I am 
 on this subject, suppose that, instead of having a parcel post under 
 the same system that we now have, whereby you can send a package 
 from New York to San Francisco for the same that you could send it 
 from Washington to Frederick, 16 miles from here, the zone system 
 should be adopted, and that the charges should be put on the mileage 
 basis, charging so much for 50 miles from every post office, and 
 have every post office the center of its own zone, and so much more 
 for 100 miles farther and 200 miles farther, so that there is a 
 graduated charge until a maximum charge reaches the maximum 
 distance. The country merchant located out in some town in Ne- 
 braska or Minnesota would have a rate, we will say, of 4 cents a 
 pound, or we will say 5 cents a pound — and I wish to be understood 
 as using these figures at random — for a distance of 50 miles and 6 
 cents a pound for 100 miles, and on up until the maximum distance 
 was reached, when it would be 12, 14, or 16 cents, or whatever it 
 might be, and that this country merchant had the same rate from 
 his store that every other merchant in the United States had, whether 
 he loaded in Chicago or in Superior, Nebr., or some place in Wy- 
 oming, wherein would that damage the country merchant? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I am not able to say wherein it would, and I wish 
 to disclaim making any claim to be an expert along matters of that 
 kind. The attitude in which I appear here in this matter is that the 
 whole tendency of the times is to educate the man living in the 
 small community and around the small community to deal with the 
 stranger rather than with the home man. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, there is no doubt but what there is a 
 concentration of business, and I do not think it is for the good of the 
 country. 
 
 Mr. Mooeehead. I think, Senator, that there is no greater attempt 
 at concentration in business to-day than there is in the retail business. 
 
 Senator Beistow. I think that is true, and my judgment is it is 
 not good for the country. However, I may be wrong. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I think it is very bad. 
 21345— vol 2—12 17 
 
520 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But that is a question of opinion. That is going 
 on and we can not stop that. There are a great many people who 
 think it is not advisable for women to be engaged in professions and 
 to vote, but they are doing it, and we can not stop it, for it is the 
 tendency of civilization. We don't want to help it, but there are a 
 great many people who say that the express companies are robbing 
 them, and I think they are in a great many of the small communities. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I will vote with you on that. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And they want some opportunity of getting 
 small packages, that they can not get at home, transported a reason- 
 able distance to these small communities without excessive charges, 
 and if the Government has the facility and can do it without inter- 
 fering with the legitimate business of the country in any way, it is 
 believed by a good many they ought to do it. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. The sentiment of a good many retail merchants 
 in the country, I think, grows out of the fact of the disposition and 
 the tendency of the education of people along lines as expressed in 
 two editorials which I have here, and a statement of the late Senator 
 Dolliver. I do not know whether he was a member of this committee 
 or not. 
 
 The Chairman. He was. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I think Senator Dolliver has covered the whole 
 case. It is very short, and I will be glad to give it. Just to indicate 
 to you the attitude of that large class of papers in our country known 
 is farm journals, and many of the large dailies, I want to quote two 
 editorials showing their attitude toward that class which I represent. 
 A. farm journal, which bears the name of one of the most prominent 
 men of our day, in a recent editorial, said : 
 
 The fact is that, outside of mining and manufacturing districts, the cities 
 svhere there are colleges, academies, and schools, the country town exists simply 
 for supplying the wants of the people on the farms. With the exceptions above 
 loted the country town has no other conceivable reason for its existence. 
 
 The Chairman. That is from a farm journal ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Yes; from Wallace's Farm Journal. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you specify the name of the journal ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I did not here. It is Wallace's Farm Journal. 
 Mr. Wallace is a member of the Country Life Commission. Here 
 is an editorial from a country paper? 
 
 The Chairman. What is the name of the paper? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. The Kansas City Star. 
 
 But suppose the parcel post should drive the country merchant out of busi- 
 less. This could only happen because of a more effective and economical 
 liethod of supplying goods to the people, and therefore the country as a whole 
 would be benefited and the country merchant himself could find a more bene- 
 icial way of earning a living. 
 
 Now, I think if you think about those two articles or editorials, 
 md carry them far enough, you will see that it is the crux of the situ- 
 ition, in our mind. 
 
 The Chairman. That is rather expressions of individual views, 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. But they are leading the people. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But the premises on which that is based do not 
 it this case. The legislation proposed— or at least the legislation that 
 \ favor — will not in any way injure the country town, but, on the 
 )ther hand, will help them ; and so, instead of those editorials being 
 
PAECBL POST. 521 
 
 against the proposition which I have in my mind, they are in favor 
 of it. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Well, sir, it is just a different viewpoint. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I want to help the small community. I am in 
 absolute sympathy with the idea that the little fellow is being 
 crowded out, and I won't favor any legislation that will make it 
 harder for him than it is now. But I think there are certain interests 
 in this country, prejudicing the country merchant against a legitimate 
 parcel post, that are against the interests of the country merchant. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. You will admit there are interests prejudicing 
 the interests of the community against the local merchant ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. That exists, I know ; yes. And there is a great 
 deal of it. There is economic evolution here that is going on. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I think you will admit that side of the question 
 rarely ever gets in public print, only to be denounced as being the 
 emissaries of express companies, for instance. 
 
 Senator Bristow. No; I think not. I think the opponents of the 
 parcel post are much more aggressive than those in favor of it. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I am glad to hear that ; I hope it is true. 
 
 The Chairman. What we would like is your demonstration of 
 where the injury is going to occur. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Suppose we let him finish his paper. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I will give you Senator Dolliver's words, and 
 then I will close. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I would like to hear all that you have in your 
 paper. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Very well. During the past 5 or 10 years there 
 has been brought about a condition in the minds of the public adverse 
 to the retail merchants, especially among the farming and laboring 
 men, that is no less than criminal. To my mind that is the most 
 serious side of the whole question as it affects the small merchants 
 of to-day. Just to think that it has been possible in this country of 
 ours to so organize and conduct a campaign of advertising to so 
 poison the minds of hundreds of those of our people scattered all 
 through the country against their neighbor, the home merchant, that 
 they will not even give us a chance to meet outside competition. 
 Under this false representation carried on for so long the public 
 seems not to be able to distinguish between our efforts to obtain a 
 fair living and the practice of extortion. They set us down as 
 extortionists without argument or chance to be heard. I have told 
 you that there are certain elements working to the end that the little 
 man in business may be eliminated. The attempt at combination or 
 concentration of business in the hands of a few is no more manifest 
 or real than is now being brought about in the distribution of 
 merchandise of every kind. 
 
 The Chairman. Who sets you down as extortionists? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. People scattered around every community in this 
 country. I will give you one concrete instance. A farmer has said to 
 me within the last 30 days, " One of my neighbor's boys is going to 
 buy a buggy." I said to him, "Where are you going to buy it?" 
 He said, " I am going to send to a mail-order house." I asked him 
 why he didn't go to Lexington and ask the home man. Using his 
 own expression, he said, " I do not propose to be robbed by the mer- 
 chant in Lexington," and he did not go there to find out. 
 
522 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. You are making a pretty sad commentary on the 
 intelligence of the agricultural people of this country. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Not in the least. I have a great many friends 
 among them ; I have lived off of them all my life, and I value their 
 friendship and their business very highly, but that was a concrete 
 case of where a young man had been so prejudiced by reading a mail- 
 order catalogue or a farm journal of some kind, that he would not 
 ride 7 miles to find out if he could buy that buggy in his own town. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, do you think he represents the ideas of 
 9,000,000 people or just his own? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I think he represents the ideas of millions of 
 people, and I think that thing is growing in this country all the time. 
 It is growing because of the general education going on in this 
 country that the little fellow can not sell goods as cheap and he is 
 robbing the people. 
 
 The Chairman. Then is not the trouble with the country merchant 
 that he does not educate the people to the fact that he can, by demon- 
 stration, sell in competition with the mail-order house ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Well, he has not the facilities, probably, for 
 educating that the mail-order house has. 
 
 The Chairman. The best demonstration in the world is the price 
 itself. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Yes, sir; quite so; and quality. Price and qual- 
 ity, both. This country has been wonderfully prosperous in the last 
 10 years. I venture to assert that there never was a time in the his- 
 tory of the country, taking into account the last 10 years or so, when 
 there were so many in every walk of life who were doing so well, 
 making such a good living, getting such prices for farm products and 
 live stock, making better wages, better housed, better fed, better 
 clothed, and, taking all things into consideration, no greater general 
 prosperity ever existed in the country, but I am confident that I am 
 within the truth when I say the million or more retail merchants in 
 this country have received less of the benefits growing out of this 
 great era of prosperity than any one other class of our people. I 
 feel safe in saying that the little merchants of the country have not 
 reaped their share of the reward. Their business and their profits 
 have not grown in proportion to the general prosperity that sur- 
 rounds them. Where has it gone? Who has gathered the harvest? 
 It is hardly necessary to say to you that the great increase in the 
 business of the mail-order houses and the city department stores have 
 gathered together and secured the greater part of the benefits and 
 increase of business which has come to us in this last year of pros- 
 perity, and I am quite sure that you will find from an investigation 
 imongst your constituents that the small business man has not reaped 
 his share of the reward, but that he has in many cases barely held his 
 own, if at all he has been able to remain in business. 
 
 The Chairman. Who is at fault? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I could not lay it to the merchant himself. 
 
 The Chairman. Then who? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. It might be partially his fault. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, who is to blame; is it the laws that are tD 
 alame ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I am not saying it is the law. 
 
PARCEL POST. 523 
 
 The Chairman. Is it the transportation facilities of the country 
 that cause this condition you represent? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. No, sir ; it is a campaign of education and adver- 
 tising that- is going on in this country, and has gone on for some 
 time. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it the mail-order house? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Yes, sir; a good part of it. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the remedy? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Don't do anything that would accelerate the dis- 
 position of the mail-order houses to encroach further upon the coun- 
 try merchant. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you abolish them? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. No, sir; never. I should not say that. We do 
 not ask for any strictures to be put upon anybody else. We would 
 like to have a fair fight, and that is all. 
 
 The Chairman. Isn't it a fair fight where you give an equal 
 opportunity to every individual? There is no proposition to give 
 any favor or special legislation to any class at all. There is nothing 
 under consideration to give any individual any advantage over any 
 other individual. It is simply to enlarge the opportunity for every- 
 body. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. We would look upon that as a disposition to give 
 the advantage to the mail-order house. 
 
 The Chairman. Then demonstrate where it is an advantage. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. With your permission, I will finish reading my 
 paper and close by quoting from Senator Dolliver, which I believe 
 would cover the general proposition so far as I see it, without any 
 definite figures or data as to what might happen, but I believe what 
 Senator Dolliver says surely would happen. From the last edi- 
 torial I read I can only infer that economy in distribution, if that 
 could be admitted in this case or at this time, is the only feature to 
 be considered in determining what is the best for the greatest num- 
 ber of our people, and that for a million or more retail merchants 
 to go out and seek other methods of making a living, together with 
 the fifteen or twenty millions depending upon them in the thousands 
 of towns and communities — our country is of small consequence to 
 such as preach the doctrine as above quoted. Therefore, this situa- 
 tion resolves itself into the only solution possible ; that this is a fight 
 for the retail business of the country between the little fellows and 
 the mail-order houses ; and that the parcel post, from our viewpoint, 
 is just one more weapon or one more means whereby those who live 
 in and about the smaller communities of this country may go by the 
 home merchants and trade with strangers. 
 
 We do not believe that the retail merchant is going to be put out 
 of business entirely, but he will be reduced to a mere means of ac- 
 commodation to those who have not the cash to send away from 
 home to purchase the necessities of life when the crop fails and the 
 strike is on. We believe, as a class, we have a right to more than 
 this ; we believe we are of as much necessity to the community as the 
 farmer, the laborer, the doctor, the lawyer, or the postmaster. We 
 believe that a good live town with live merchants making something 
 more than a living are as much of a necessity in our economy as 
 any other class of our people. You can not deny that every acre of 
 
)24 PAKCBL POST. 
 
 land is increased in value in proportion to its proximity to a good 
 town or city and depreciates in value just in proportion to its dis- 
 tance from a good town or city. It appears to us, therefore, that 
 such a condition would be ideal in this country and should not be in 
 my wise disturbed or discounted even though it might be admitted 
 that a farmer or any other of our citizenship might save in a small 
 svay on his purchases when sent to a great center. In this connec- 
 tion I want to say that to my mind this proposed action of Congress 
 seems to be but a new shibboleth to be used in breaking down and 
 further crippling not only the business of the little merchants in 
 the smaller communities of our country, but the concentration of 
 the distribution of merchandise in the great centers, and therefore 
 creating large social, economical, and political problems for our 
 future solution. 
 
 The late Senator Dolliver, in a communication addressed to a 
 farmers' institute in his State, upon the subject of a parcel post, said : 
 
 I think the chief danger of our civilization lies in the concentration of the 
 population and business of a community in the cities. I have rejoiced all my 
 lifetime, in fact, that our Stnte has built up no great cities, but, instead, a large 
 number of flourishing towns and villages scattered throughout our borders. I 
 believe it would be fatally injurious to our farming interests to disturb the pros- 
 perity of our little cities and towns. They are necessary not only to the com- 
 fort but to the material welfare of our farming population. They furnish our 
 home markets and many of our products, which would be totally lost, but other- 
 wise find sales in the neighborhood of market towns. If a few of us took ad- 
 vantage of the alleged bargains that are advertised by the department stores 
 and left off patronizing home merchants, it may be we could make a little in 
 that way, but if the whole community took the same view it is obvious that our 
 home town would be totally destroyed, its business ruined, and now where we 
 have hundreds of little thriving towns in Iowa we would in time find ourselves 
 surrounded with shiftless and backward village population, wholly out of line 
 with the progress of which we are so proud in Iowa. The immediate effect of 
 conditions would be to depreciate our lands and fatally injure our people. 
 
 Therefore I shall urge upon you that you look well into the ques- 
 tion as to who may be responsible for the agitation of the establish- 
 ment of a parcel post at this time. In determining whether or not 
 you shall cast your vote for such favorable action, I ask that you 
 consider well whether or not the temporary benefits, if any, which 
 may come from such favorable action will not be 10 times over offset 
 by injuries in other directions that may come not only to the little 
 merchants of our country but to all other classes, including the 
 farmer, who may be at this time so closely related and allied to them. 
 In conclusion I ask that you have due consideration for this large 
 class of our citizenship in dealing with this great question. I wish 
 to file with the committee copy of the resolutions of the organiza- 
 tion which I have the privilege of representing, and also a copy of a 
 resolution opposing any parcel-post law, adopted at the Trans-Mis- 
 sissippi Congress held at Kansas City, November 14 to 17, 1911 : 
 
 Whereas the rates of transportation charges by the express companies are in 
 many instances excessive when judged by the returns upon capital invested; and 
 
 Whereas a reduction of these rates to a reasonable basis would, in a large 
 measure, satisfy any demand for a parcel post without a most certain Federal 
 postal deficit ; and 
 
 Whereas the Interstate Commerce Commission has instituted an exhaustive 
 investigation of these express rates: Therefore be it 
 
 Resolved, That the Trans-Mississippi Commercial Congress commend the ac- 
 tion of the Interstate Commerce Commission for having instituted such an 
 
PARCEL POST. 525 
 
 investigation to the end that equitable carrying charges may prevail, and the 
 transportation of small packages may be carried at a charge in proportion to 
 the weight, distance, and service rendered, and it is further the sense of the 
 Congress that the unit of western development must always be the small town 
 and hamlet which would be menaced by the passage of any parcel-post law. 
 
 The National Federation Ketail Merchants' resolution reads: 
 
 Whereas we believe that the agitation for the establishment of the parcel post 
 emanates from sources and influences acting under cover and not from any 
 great demand from the farming or other classes ; and 
 
 Whereas we believe that the establishment of parcel post will result in the 
 loss of business to the retail merchant without a saving to the consumer ; a 
 depreciation of town and farm property and the substitution of a shiftless back- 
 woods village population for the live and thriving towns and hamlets through- 
 out our country to-day : Therefore be it 
 
 Resolved, That we unalterably oppose this proposed action on the part of the 
 Congress of the United States as recommended by the President and Postmaster 
 General : And be it further 
 
 Resolved, That a copy of this resolution be sent to the President of the United 
 States, the Postmaster General, and Senators and Representatives in Congress. 
 
 Whereas the rates of transportation charged by the various express com- 
 panies are in many instances excessive when judged by the returns upon capital 
 invested; and 
 
 Whereas a reduction of these rates to a reasonable basis would, in a large 
 measure, satisfy any demand for a parcel post without increasing the Federal 
 postal deficit : Therefore be it 
 
 Resolved, That we hereby request the Interstate Commerce Commission to 
 thoroughly investigate the express rates with a view to accomplishing this 
 double purpose. 
 
 The Chairman. With reference to the first resolution, how much 
 discussion was there before the adoption of the resolution by the 
 Trans-Mississippi Congress ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Something like 2 hours. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you give to the committee the benefit of the 
 reasons expressed there, upon which the opposition was based and 
 the resolution adopted ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. There was nothing presented before the whole 
 convention. What I mean is this: There was no set opposition or 
 speech made in that convention against the passage of a parcel-post 
 law, but a gentleman from Denver did make an address to the con- 
 vention favoring a parcel-post law, which I did not hear because I 
 was a member of the committee on resolutions and was working in 
 that capacity. 
 
 The Chairman. I want to get the proof for the information of the 
 committee. What the committee would like would be the demonstra- 
 tion upon which the statement is here made that the unit of western 
 development must always be the small town and hamlet, in which 
 I think the committee concurs, " which would be menaced by the pas- 
 sage of any parcel-post law." 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. On the line that any parcel-post law would be an 
 entering wedge. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the sole ground ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I do not believe that you could satisfy the people 
 who are demanding it with anything less than a general parcel-post 
 law. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean, then, a competitive parcel post or a 
 governmental monopoly of the parcel business ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I think it would land there some day. 
 
326 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it true or not that the country merchant would 
 like an improved method for transportation, provided he enjoyed 
 equal opportunity under that improved facility with everybody 
 else ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I think he would ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Where would any individual have a special privi- 
 lege under an enlarged scope of the present fourth-class mail matter 
 or the enlargement of the law or regulation, and why would not 
 everybody participate in the increased transportation facilities? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Well, a merchant would not himself use the par- 
 cel post in buying his own goods, except in emergencies. 
 
 The Chairman. For what reason? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. As I say, I think the whole proposition would be 
 to encourage and educate the people to sit down at home and buy 
 goods by mail. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, but Senator Bristow has very clearly 
 brought that point out, that this condition exists. You say that you 
 would not, even if you could accomplish it by legislation, eliminate 
 the mail-order house. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I am not asking for it. I would like to see them 
 put out, but I know that is never going to be clone. 
 
 The Chairman. But you say, as I understand, that you can com- 
 pete, or the country merchant can compete with the mail-order house 
 under existing conditions. Now, the proposition is to simply enlarge 
 the transportation facilities. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I believe that enlargement of the transportation 
 facility would be in the interest of the other fellow. 
 
 The Chairman. How can it be if it is equally offered to all inter- 
 ests concerned, if it gives the same rate to everybody? That is what 
 I can not get through my mind. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. It would not be used by the merchant; it would 
 be used by the consumer. 
 
 The Chairman. Why would not the merchant, if it was an im- 
 proved transportation facility, utilize that improvement? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Only under conditions which Mr. Norvell has 
 said, that business should be reduced to a point where merchants 
 would buy in such small quantities that they would use it, rather 
 than buying in large quantities as they do now, which certainly 
 would increase the cost of goods in buying in small quantities. In 
 my own business that would obtain, for we have to buy in car lots. 
 
 The Chairman. If the postal rate were greater than the freight 
 rate, the goods would be shipped by the cheaper method of trans- 
 portation, wouldn't they? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Oh, yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Would your association be opposed to the Gov- 
 ernment taking to itself a monopoly of all postal matter, as it does 
 now with the first-class mail matter? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Yes, sir ; I would say so. 
 
 The Chairman. But your association would not be opposed 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. That puts them in the transportation business, 
 we believe, which I would say they would oppose generally; there 
 might be some who would not oppose it, however. 
 
 The Chairman. But the country merchant, if he could get a better 
 and cheaper service, would not be opposed to that, would he? 
 
PARCEL POST. 527 
 
 Mr. Mooeehead. The country merchant would not be opposed to a 
 cheaper service if he could get it. The point is this service proposed 
 would not be his service. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, he would participate in that as one of the 
 units in the community in which he lived, wouldn't he ? 
 
 Mr. Mookehead. To a very limited extent; what I mean is, in the 
 actual use of it. 
 
 The Chairman. Demonstrate, if you can. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Well, only as Mr. Norvell said, that when a per- 
 son wanted something very quickly the retail merchant at home 
 might resort to the parcel post, as he does now to the express or as 
 he does now to the 4-pound package under the present parcel post, 
 but as a general proposition, in buying a stock of goods and laying 
 them in, he would not think of resorting to that. 
 
 The Chairman. Isn't it true that the success of the mail-order 
 house is due to its ability to ship a number of packages in a shipment, 
 making up such weight that it will take advantage of the minimum 
 rate for 100 pounds or up to carload lots ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I have not had experience in that, Senator, and I 
 do not know how to answer that. I am not complaining of the mail- 
 order house personally, from my own standpoint. 
 
 The Chairman. You are complaining of the lack of education on 
 the part of the American people, and your contention is a reflection 
 on their intelligence, that they are fooled by the catalogue and haven't 
 the power of discrimination and are willing to go on and pay more 
 to the mail-order house than they can get the same articles for from 
 their own country merchant? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. No. sir; I have no desire to reflect upon them at 
 all, as I said. I think a great many of them are brighter than a 
 good many of our merchants, and I have no desire whatever and 
 want to disclaim any disposition to reflect upon anyone at all at this 
 time or anywhere else, but I believe a man or a community, for that 
 matter, can be educated to do things to the point where they think 
 they are saving a cent and at the same time they are losing a dollar. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, it seems to me, if that statement is true it 
 is a reflection on the country merchant for not doing his educational 
 work that his neighbor is doing and making a demonstration that he 
 can instead of apparently saving the cent, actually save it. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I do not question but what a. great many retail 
 merchants are responsible for not having business, because they do not 
 know how to take care of it. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, isn't it a question of business methods 
 rather than a question of legislation? What we have before us is 
 the question of legislation, and what we want to do is to enact legis- 
 lation that will be of benefit to the general welfare of the Nation as 
 a whole, with the least possible injury to the individual, and we have 
 to depend upon you gentlemen who are opposed to parcel-post legis- 
 lation to demonstrate to our minds where individuals will be actually 
 injured, and then it is up to us to consider as to the greatest good to 
 the greatest number, with the least injury to the individual. It is a 
 problem on which we are anxious to get all possible views. We want 
 to get, so far as it is possible to present, actual demonstrations and 
 proof. 
 
)28 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Mooeehead. I do not believe, Senator, that you could get that. 
 
 The Chairman. Until we made the trial?' 
 
 Mr. Mooeehead. Yes; until you made the trial. 
 
 The Chairman. I concur, in a measure, in that, that it will be more 
 Dr less a matter of opinion. 
 
 Mr. Mooeehead. To our minds we believe the trial would be very 
 ietrimental to our interests. 
 
 The Chairman. You have failed to convince me that an enlarge- 
 ment of activity, general in its application, is a detriment to any 
 interests in the zone of that activity, from the broad standpoint 
 where no special privilege is given to any one interest, but on the 
 contrary equal opportunity is presented to every unit in the commu- 
 nity. I fail to see where any unit is going to be injured by the en- 
 largement of that scope. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Well, the disagreement there would come as to 
 what we would believe would be the possible results of such action. 
 
 Senator Beistow. With regard to the resolution that the Trans- 
 Mississippi Congress passed, practically the only thing that was in 
 Lhe mind of any of the members of that congress was a parcel post 
 that would give the same rate, regardless of distance, the same as 
 the present mail business is transacted. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. That matter was discussed, Senator, in the com- 
 mittee considerably and was discussed upon the floor, though not in 
 detail, as you suggest, a general parcel post, but a limited-zone 
 proposition. But I say, the matter uppermost in the minds of the 
 people who were responsible for this was that it is a great deal 
 easier to start something than it is to stop it. 
 
 The Chairman. But you believe in progress, in civilization, in 
 government, and in sociey, don't you? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You read from Senator Dolliver's quotation in 
 regard to the great cities being a menace to our civilization. The 
 great cities — of. course they have always existed and always will— 
 have been developed in tins country abnormally by preferential rates 
 in transportation. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. A great deal of that I quite concur with you on. 
 
 Senator Bristoav. The railroads, the express companies, have al- 
 ways given large centers advantage over the small ones and the big 
 shippers over the little ones, and until recent years they gave rebates. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Yes, sir ; I could give you some concrete cases on 
 that line from my own experience. 
 
 Senator Beistow. The small men have been driven out of business 
 by this discrimination on the part of the transportation companies. 
 Now, when a parcel-post system is proposed that is based upon an 
 equitable system of transportation where a man pays for the service 
 he gets and he pays just the same as if an article was shipped from a 
 community where there is one store as he does as if it was shipped 
 from a city of a million people, then the men who have been injured 
 by the discrimination come and object to it. Now, that is the situa- 
 tion we are confronting here. Of course the committee has not 
 agreed on any parcel-post law at all. Senator Bourne may have one 
 view and I may have another and other members still other views, 
 but the parcel-post law that I have in mind, which I am inclined to 
 
PABCEL, POST. 529 
 
 think would be advantageous, is one that is based upon the theory 
 that it costs more and therefore it is worth more to transport a 
 pound of merchandise 1,000 miles than 50 miles, and if the Govern- 
 ment does it, it ought to charge more for it. 
 
 Mr. Moorehbad. Yes, sir; I think you are quite right about that. 
 
 Senator Bbistow. The railroads ought to be required to do it, and 
 I think the whole transportation system has been developed wrong.' 
 But the argument is made here against this system upon the pre- 
 sumption that it is going to aid by giving an unfair advantage to the 
 large center over the small center when it is not in the mind of a 
 single member of the committee. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I hope it is not. 
 
 The Chairman. To my mind it will benefit the small community, 
 and I think Senator Bristow has in mind the same idea. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I want you gentlemen to have my views and I 
 want your objections to them, because I have not given this thing 
 very great attention, but I am perfectly willing to admit that I have 
 had in mind the zone system, giving to this small community the same 
 opportunity to ship their goods by mail the same distances for the 
 same rate that the mail-order house or anybody else has, which is an 
 opportunity they do not now have, for the express companies charge 
 them four times per mile as much as they charge out of a city, and 
 the railroads charge most anything for short distances. The small 
 communities have been kept down and their development prevented 
 by this unfair discrimination. Now, if they are given the same 
 opportunity that the other fellow has, I can not see where they have 
 any complaint. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. I think your ideals are all right, Senator, but the 
 people who are responsible for the bringing of this question to the 
 front would be gravely disappointed. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I hardly agree with you there. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. And then you would have to take another step. 
 
 Senator Brtstow. Yon do not have to do anything except what 
 we think is right. The question we are trying to get at is not to be 
 controlled by prejudice and not by anticipation that something is 
 going to be wrong after we are through with it, but we are going 
 to get action that is right and beneficial. Now, I can not see any ar- 
 gument whatever against a rural parcel post, and I do not think 
 there ever has been any ; but why should any man say, " If you put 
 that in it is a good thing, nobody has objected to it in itself, but if 
 you do that somebody else in the future will do something that they 
 ought not to do." Now, that kind of an argument does not have 
 any influence with me, because the responsibility is on the other 
 fellow; if he does something he ought not to, that is not a reason 
 why we should not do something that is right now and is beneficial 
 to a large number of people and would help the Government very 
 much in supplying it with revenues which it expends in maintaining 
 a rural-delivery system which is very expensive. Now, that is the 
 way I have been looking at this, and I would like the benefit of any 
 information that you gentlemen can give in regard to it, because, 
 so far as I am concerned, I have been fighting these discriminations 
 and the concentration of business all my life and expect to keep it 
 up if I live. But, here is a proposition that I think will be bene- 
 
530 PARCEL POST. 
 
 ficial to the country community, and if I am mistaken I want to know 
 it, and I would like to have some specific illustrations to show 
 wherein my theory of it is wrong. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Well, sir, I am not an expert in this matter at 
 all. I only look at it from the standpoint of being a little merchant 
 out on the prairies, as a general proposition, and I have never gone 
 into the expert details. There are others here, I believe, whom I 
 know are quite more competent to pass upon this than I would be. 
 
 The Chairman. But, Mr. Moorehead, you come before the com- 
 mittee as the representative of over a million of our citizens, you 
 appear in the representative capacity and present objections to cer- 
 tain legislation which the committee — and we are your servants — as 
 well as the people of the United States, are entitled to, and specific 
 views and demonstrations as to the tenability of your opposition. 
 The committee does not put in months of research work and in- 
 vestigation of this subject for the purpose of benefiting any par- 
 ticular interest; on the contrary, their purpose is to act so as to 
 bring the greatest good to the greatest number and the least possible 
 injury to anyone. We are glad to receive individual opinions, but 
 where people appear before the committee in a representative ca- 
 pacity, we think we are entitled to get demonstrations and proof 
 upon which they base their position; otheiwise. we can not, as trus- 
 tees for the country, do a very good service. Isn't that true ? 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. Yes, sir. Of course I have no expectation of 
 presenting anything in the way of absolute demonstration of the pos- 
 sibilities of this or any law which is proposed. I have come here 
 simply to perform a commission in presenting this paper and these 
 resolutions, and will ask you to consider them for what they are 
 worth. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the committee is very glad to get the views. 
 What we are wanting is to get all possible information on the matter. 
 
 Mr. Moorehead. That is a fine spirit, Senator, and if you could 
 demonstrate to the retail merchants that I represent that this thing 
 would be a good thing I am quite sure all opposition would be re- 
 moved. 
 
 The Chairman. Later on we will try to make that demonstration, 
 if we are convinced ourselves. We are glad to have your views, Mr. 
 Moorehead. 
 
TESTIMONY OF ME. DOUGLAS DALLAM. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Dallam, it is necessary that you be sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I am here as the sec- 
 retary _of the National Wholesale Dry Goods Association, and I am 
 here simply to lodge with the committee an expression from the 
 members of the association in opposition to the parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly explain for the benefit of the 
 committee what the organization consists of and its membership ? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. The membership is 90, representing wholesale dry 
 goods houses distributed throughout the United States from Maine 
 to California and from Florida to Washington. 
 
 The Chairman. The membership is 90? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. It is a national association ? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. It is a national association, distributing approxi- 
 mately $420,000,000 worth of merchandise annually. Their expres- 
 sion is concrete and is, I think, practically conclusive in the resolu- 
 tion adopted in 1909 : 
 
 Resolved, That the National Wholesale Dry Goods Association deprecate any 
 national legislation looking to the extension or promotion of the so-called parcel 
 post, believing that for our country as a whole, it is wrong in theory and would 
 be ruinous in practice to our rural communities, whose greatest interest and 
 that of the Nation lie in the conservation of the village or small city as an 
 entirety. 
 
 And we believe that a parcel post is but a first step in the practical an- 
 nihilation of all such centers, and that the members of this association are 
 pledged to use their best efforts to prevent such legislation as being in favor of 
 a few large centers and distributors in the country as against the many, and the 
 building up of large cities and the destruction of the small trading centers. 
 
 In addition to these reasons, we believe the fundamental principles of our 
 Government do and should prohioit our Congress from engaging in or assisting 
 in any business undertaking that directly tends to the benefit of a small class 
 of citizens or a few large centers at the expense of the many and the country in 
 general. 
 
 And that is their expression, and it comes from men who are en- 
 gaged in the distribution of dry goods, and thoroughly considering 
 the situation, generally amongst themselves, and individual activities 
 as well as those of the Federal organization. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly give the committee the benefit of 
 the premises from which you reached these conclusions ? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. The premise is their actual business experience ; they 
 are merchants. 
 
 The Chairman. Based upon what? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Their business associations with the country at large 
 as retail distributors of dry goods. 
 
 The Chairman. Based upon the injury to your particular line of 
 business under the present parcel post, limited as it is in this country ? 
 
 531 
 
532 PABCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Not so limited, Senator, but in its scope as to the 
 character of its business it is quite general. The conclusion is further 
 based upon their actual experience and the belief that any tendency 
 that will affect the smaller retail merchant in the small communities, 
 reflects upon the concentration in the municipality to the destruction 
 of the country at large. 
 
 The Chairman. You predicate your conclusions upon an assumed 
 premise that an injury is going to result to the country merchant? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Certainly it is presumed, in operation to-day. It is 
 presumed, but presumed from business experience. ' 
 
 Senator Bbistow. What business experience? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Their business experience daily — that of the retail 
 merchants throughout the country. 
 
 Senator Beistow. But wherein has their business experience 
 demonstrated whether or not your theories are correct? Does the 
 present fourth-class rate injure your business or the country mer- 
 chant? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. It does, to that extent. There are smaller packages 
 that can be distributed in that way so largely instrumental in forcing 
 conditions upon the merchant by the mail-order house that any 
 further extension of that means just that much more harm, limiting 
 the possibilities of the retailers, of extending their stock or carrying 
 a stock, and it operates not only with the jobber, but with the manu- 
 facturer as well. Any extension means that the retailer must carry 
 more in his stock in order to meet the competition. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you think the present parcel post is responsi- 
 ble for the development of a mail-order house? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Not responsible, but contributes to it materially. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, how much? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Well, to the extent of the present parcel post. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, to what extent do you think it does? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. To what extent ? You know the extent of the pres- 
 ent capacities of a parcel post. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, what present business of the mail-order 
 louse would be sent by the parcel post that now exists ? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. I can not say, for I do not know the business of all 
 ;he mail-order houses. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, without that information, on what do you 
 aase your conclusion? You do not take up a business proposition 
 i)at way, without studying it from every possible viewpoint, but vou 
 igure out on premises which are specific, and you draw your deduc- 
 :ions from that study on which you enlarge your own business. 
 Sow, you assume without the knowledge, according to your state- 
 nent to the committee, of the volume of business now performed by 
 he mail-order houses that a great injury is going to result and that 
 in injury does result to-day in the present operations. Now, to 
 predicate or to come to any conclusions that would be of value, why, 
 rou certainly should have the information as to the volume of busi- 
 less that was done by the mail-order houses. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. That is entirely controlled bv the volume of business 
 hat enters into the mail-order houses to-day" We know of instances 
 vhere one woman will make up a party, a syndicate as it were, to do 
 he business for other people to the disruption of the retail merchant. 
 
PAECEL POST. 533 
 
 The Chairman. Your organization representing $450,000,000 does 
 not conduct its business on any hypothetical lines. You conduct your 
 business on premises that you know to be authentic. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Exactly so ; and that is wherein they arrive at these 
 conclusions. 
 
 Senator Bristow. We want to know on what facts they base those 
 conclusions — specific and definite facts. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Well, I do not feel competent to answer for them as 
 to that. These gentlemen who have arrived at these conclusions are 
 representative merchants throughout the country and are thoroughly 
 and properly advised in that direction. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, they ought to advise us, of course, because 
 the conclusions are all right in a way, but they do not have any appli- 
 cation to the subject pending before this committee whatever, in my 
 opinion. 
 
 The Chairman. If the Senator will permit me, I will simply say 
 the information submitted to the committee is that there are 90 mem- 
 bers of this organization, representing $450,000,000 of capital, who 
 are opposed to an enlargement of the activity of the present fourth- 
 class mail matter, but they present no reason why. Now, are we not 
 entitled to the reasons why? Let us look at this matter in this 
 way 
 
 Mr. Dallam. There is no disposition to deny you that information. 
 
 The Chairman. What we would like to get is the information. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. I was not advised about it. I predicated my re- 
 marks with the statement that I was simply here to lodge with the 
 committee an expression from these gentlemen. Now, these are not 
 90 gentlemen. 
 
 The Chairman. Ninety organizations? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Ninety firms and corporations engaging in this busi- 
 ness. 
 
 The Chairman. But let us look at it from our standpoint, and 
 Senator Bristow will agree with me, or express his difference of 
 opinion, if there is any difference. I look upon the United States as 
 the biggest corporation in the world, with a population of 92,000,000 
 people as the stockholders, and that corporation with 140 billions 
 of capital, which is our estimated national wealth ; the Congress acts 
 as the board of directors ; we will say the President is the chairman 
 of the executive board and his Cabinet the executive board, except 
 that they have no vote as directors. Now, here comes a fight before 
 the board of directors, and you gentlemen appear, just as you would 
 in your own organization from a business viewpoint, as the heads of 
 the department in the governmental operations. The board of di- 
 rectors are entitled to your views, as specialists, as to action they will 
 take for the general corporation as a whole. It is that information 
 we want. We have before us now only the fact that you gentlemen, 
 or your association, are opposed to the proposed parcel post, and we 
 want to know the reason before we, as directors, take any action, not 
 forgetting that we are directors for you as well as for any other in- 
 terest in the country. Now, is not that the business viewpoint? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Exactly, and we will grant it. There is no disposi- 
 tion to deny you the facts. But here come the heads of one of your 
 departments, "the dry-goods end, and they have considered the matter 
 from all of tneir experience, not only from their experience, but from 
 
534 PABCEL POST. 
 
 talks as well. It is not a selfish motive, but also from the ooint of 
 view of the welfare of the people dependent upon them for mer- 
 chandise, for whom they must go into the market and arrange finan- 
 cial affairs so they can get merchandise and have it distributed to 
 them at the seasons of the year they require the merchandise. They 
 have given consideration to all those views, and they report to you 
 the conditions as they find them in this article. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you not hold your board of directors 
 derelict in its duty if it should not ask for the premises upon which 
 the department head had reached its conclusions? Would you retain 
 a board of directors, if you control a majority of the stock, if the 
 directors simply took the ipse dixit of some head ? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. I would not, if they were incompetent to discharge 
 their duty. But how many merchants to-day, in the discharge of 
 their duties, are there who do not elect certain men of their houses to 
 carry on the work and on whom they must depend for their business 
 experience to tell them the necessities and needs of that department? 
 Now, if you have not the confidence in your men. what do you do? 
 You remove them, and that is all. That is what we do. This is only 
 one unit in the department to report to you their findings in this 
 particular matter. 
 
 The Chairman. But, for your board of directors to perform their 
 functions, they are entitled to the information upon which the de- 
 partment came to its conclusion. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. That is all true. No doubt, however, if the com- 
 mittee who framed this resolution and presented it to our membership 
 as a whole, in their regular annual board meeting, knew this com- 
 mittee's wants at this time they would have been very glad to have 
 given the details which prompted them to make this report. There 
 would be no difficulty in securing that information. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I think the committee would be glad to get 
 that information. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. I simply was instructed to lodge with you a state- 
 ment of their views based upon their actual business organization 
 and the needs of their constituents. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the success of the organization that you 
 represent, Mr. Dallam, is due in a great measure to the transporta- 
 tion facilities and ability to reach their customers. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Certainly ; transportation is one of the chief features. 
 
 The Chairman. And an increased transportation facility would 
 not be a detriment ordinarily, but it would be a benefit, would it not? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Certainly. 
 
 The Chairman. And it would'enlarge your field of action? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Exactly; limited to just what you say. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose you had, for instance, no transconti- 
 nental roads and no opportunity to reach the Pacific coast by water; 
 you would be shut off from that, would you not? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Well, certainly it would be limited to a certain ex- 
 tent, but not shut off, because we had transportation before we had 
 the transcontinental railroad — by wagons. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But you did not do much business then? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Well, Senator, St. Joseph did a world of business 
 before we had many railroads through Kansas. There were a good 
 
PAECEL POST. 535 
 
 many houses in the old days on the Missouri River that distributed 
 many a carload of freight. 
 
 Senator Beistow. But since the railroads have developed they 
 have a lot of competitors. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. They were doing a very healthy business before they 
 had many competitors west of that in the wholesale distribution. 
 
 Senator Beistow. You can not legislate for St. Joseph. You must 
 legislate for the entire country. 
 Mr. Dallam. That is true. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Would you abolish the railroads of the country ? 
 Mr. Dallam. Why, certainly not. 
 
 Senator Beistow. The more territory that is developed by the rail- 
 road the better it is for your business. 
 Mr. Dallam. Why, certainly. 
 
 Senator Beistow. I have not looked up the details, but I have an 
 idea you will find that in sending an express package from Seneca, 
 
 Kans., to Waterville 
 
 The Chairman. The rate will be 16 cents a pound or to any other 
 place in the United States. 
 
 Senator Beistow. That is the postage rate. I mean the express 
 rate from Seneca to Waterville would be more than from Kansas 
 City to Waterville. 
 The Chairman. Oh, no. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I am talking about the express rates. 
 The Chairman. I am talking about the express also; 16 cents 
 would be the competitive rate. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. To a certain extent would it not be reasonable to be 
 higher? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Higher from Seneca to Waterville than from 
 Kansas City to Waterville? 
 Mr. Dallam. Yes, sir. 
 Senator Bristow. Why, no, sir ; never. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Your transportation is based entirely upon the vol- 
 ume of traffic to-day. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is the vicious thing we are talking about 
 here, and which this parcel post will perhaps remedy. That is the 
 thing that has built up your commercial centers and destroyed 
 your small communities which you are trying to protect. 
 Mr. Dallam. No, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It is that thing that first made the monopolies 
 like you have in the city of Chicago and like the city of Chicago 
 itself. 
 Mr. Dallam. No, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Here you appear as the representative of big 
 business concerns. Would you propose such a thing as that; to de- 
 fend the express companies by that ? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. I do not defend them at all. The express companies 
 do not require any defense from us ; they are in the hands of our 
 Interstate Commerce Commission to-day, and it needs no explana- 
 tion here. I have nothing to do with the express companies what- 
 ever. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But you are defending the proposition of charg- 
 ing more for transporting 50 miles than for 150 miles. 
 
 21845— vol 2—12 18 
 
536 PABCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. I asked you, is it not reasonable to do so ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. And I say it is not. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Then you answered the question. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Then you took issue with me. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. I did not take any issue with you at all. I am not 
 equipped here to take any issue with you gentlemen, for this is your 
 game. I am here simply to present to you the concrete conclusion 
 arrived at by these gentlemen. 
 
 The Chairman. We are glad to get your views, but you can not 
 criticize us for trying to get them. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Please let me repeat that I offer no criticism at all. 
 You are perfectly welcome to get out of me any information I have 
 for the benefit of the committee. 
 
 The Chairman. The express rate from Washington for 1 pound, 
 prepaid, is 16 cents, whether it is to Calverton, Va., 46 miles, or to 
 Gordonsville, Va., 94 miles, or to Goshen, Va., 190 miles; to Hinton, 
 W. Va., 290 miles; to Charleston, W. Va., 390 miles; to Morehead, 
 Ky., 510 miles; Indianapolis, Ind., 747 miles; St. Louis, Mo., 990 
 miles; or to Denver, Colo., 1,900 miles. The rate, as I say, is 16 
 cents, when prepaid, for the first pound, meaning competition with 
 the Government under the fourth-class matter. Now, your freight 
 rate would be 43 cents for the first 46 miles, whether it is for 1 pound 
 or 100 pounds, on merchandise; 44 cents for the 94 miles, whether 
 1 pound or 100 pounds ; 60 cents for 190 miles, whether it is 1 pound 
 or 100 pounds; 62 cents for 290 miles, whether it is 1 pound or 100 
 pounds; 62 cents for 390 miles, whether it is for 1 pound or 
 100 pounds; 72 cents for 510 miles, whether it is 1 pound or 100 
 pounds; and for the 1,900 miles it is $1.97, whether for 1 pound or 
 for 100 pounds. Now, do you gentlemen mean to say that it would 
 not be beneficial to you to have reduced freight rates ? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. It is not possible that you would expect a sane person 
 to answer you contrary to that. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you would be benefited by that? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Wouldn't you be benefited by increased transpor- 
 tation facilities? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Yes ; to that extent of course. 
 
 The Chairman. And if they were equal to all classes and to all 
 communities in general in the application you would favor them ? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Why, so far as I know now, yes. There might be 
 conditions where we would not favor it. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you would want a special privilege, it seems 
 to me. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. No; we do not want a special privilege. You are 
 misconstruing my answer. I would not answer you we want reduced 
 rates anywhere, for if a certain reduced rate was going to create a 
 hardship on a transportation company and result in our inability 
 to get desirable transportation or a competent facility for transpor- 
 tation, we would say decidedly we had better not have the rates 
 reduced. 
 
 The Chairman. I decidedly concur with you on that. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Well, I would not answer you straight off on that 
 question. 
 
PAECEL POST. 537 
 
 _ The Chairman. I will say this : Given as good service, continua- 
 tion of the service, a cheaper rate would be beneficial to your special 
 line of business ? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. A general rate, an equitable rate for everybody. 
 
 The Chairman. Equitable to whom ? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Equitable to everybody, and the company as well. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, if the rate is general in its application to 
 everybody, it must be equitable, otherwise it must be a special rate 
 and a special privilege to somebody. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Other than the conditions that I refer to. 
 
 The Chairman. I preface my question with the statement that the 
 service would remain as good and continue as long under existing 
 conditions, and the only change would be an improvement or a 
 reduction in price. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Well, a reduction in price I would not admit would be 
 particularly attractive, as, the rates are to-day. If they are all equal, 
 why should there be any reduction ? They are all based along those 
 lines, other than you are possibly going into the cost to the consumer. 
 
 The Chairman. It is the greatest good for the greatest number. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. The commercial welfare enters into it. 
 
 The Chairman. Your consumer represents by far the largest por- 
 tion of our population, does he not? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. I presume so. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, he must. We are all consumers. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, in a study of the question, should not the 
 consumer's interests be taken into consideration as a paramount inter- 
 est, provided in the result obtained you are not injuring any par- 
 ticular individual ? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Exactly so. 
 
 The Chairman. That is to be your line of proceeding in your 
 study for determination. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Entirely so, and it is thoroughly comprehended in 
 this resolution. 
 
 The Chairman. But the resolution does not give the premises upon 
 which it is based. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. All granted. 
 
 The Chairman. And it is in view of the lack of the premises that 
 the committee is trying to get from you this information as a special- 
 ist in this particular line of business, which we credit you with hav- 
 ing more information on than we have. We want the benefit of 
 your experience along this line. I fail to see where it is possible to 
 work an injury to any interests by an increased equal opportunity. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Well, that is concurrent upon conditions that may 
 develop with the increased facilities or a reduction of transportation, 
 as you might call it. You might develop a congestion or an expense 
 in other channels. If you do not pay one way, sometimes you pay 
 another. Now, there is no economy in saving a quarter on one side 
 if it costs you 50 cents to make it up. 
 
 The Chairman. No ; that is very poor business. That means bank- 
 ruptcy and liquidation. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. I have heard it discussed among our own members 
 that they believe that the extension of your present parcel-post law 
 means an increased expense to the Government that must be taken up 
 
)38 PARCEL POST. 
 
 by taxation, and they do not believe the increased revenues will be 
 sufficient to cover the expense. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose they are wrongin that premise? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. There is a supposition again. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, suppose we can give a demonstration that 
 they are wrong. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Is that based on facts? There is the experimental 
 proposition, isn't it? 
 
 The Chairman. 1 am making a hypothetical case, the same as you 
 ire. I expect that the committee will later on present to the country 
 their views and the grounds upon which they based them. I fail 
 to get your viewpoint as to where increased activity in the volume 
 of your business is detrimental to you, and I fail to get your view- 
 point as to where you are injured in your business operation by a 
 greater opportunity, if the opportunity is made general. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Well, perhaps you could appreciate that better, Sen- 
 ator, if you had participated in the distribution of merchandise at 
 one time. 
 
 The Chairman. I have had considerable business experience. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Well, your basis of operation must be largely upon 
 transportation, because in the cost of goods you calculate the cost of 
 your help and hire and then you would estimate what expense was 
 necessarv in its distribution; then you arrive at your living ex- 
 penses, which must also be calculated, and then you are ready for 
 your distribution. Now, if you reduce your freight transportation 
 5 per cent, it is possible you might take advantage of that, but it is 
 more than probable you would have to reduce the price of your mer- 
 chandise to meet the price of the other man, who will not take ad- 
 vantage of it. Eecently we have had occasion to protest against a 
 proposed horizontal increase in the freight rate, class rate, from 
 New York to the West. Why? Because we felt we could not add 
 the percentage of that extent upon a yard of calico or upon 10 yards 
 of a piece of calico going to the retail merchant; therefore an in- 
 crease of 20 per cent on a freight rate to Chicago must be assumed 
 in the expense of the distributor and not on the consumer at all. 
 
 The Chairman. You think the present freight rates are scientifi- 
 cally adjusted, and you would be opposed to any change in them? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. I think thej' are most scientific, unquestionably. 
 Pardon my remark about this: I was in a freight-traffic department 
 of a railroad for 16 years, and I know that they give the subject the 
 most careful consideration. I will interline there and say that my 
 experience was largely before the Interstate Commerce Commission. 
 In its operation the rates are arrived at in most instances under a 
 most scientific method, by comparison, not only for the needs of the 
 railroad, Senator 
 
 The Chairman. They are based on the volume of business entirely, 
 are they not ? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. No; not altogether. The needs of the movement 
 of the business. 
 
 The Chairman. It is more business that every business organiza- 
 tion is seeking, provided it is doing business at a profit, is not that 
 true? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Yes, exactly. 
 
PARCEL POST. 539 
 
 The Chairman. Of course you do not do business at a loss for any- 
 body. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. No. 
 
 The Chairman. You may operate temporarily at a loss for the 
 convenience of some customer, but that is a matter of business judg- 
 ment and discretion. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. But do I understand you correctly, that in your 
 judgment, a general reduction of freight rates, supposed to be put 
 in operation all over this country, say of 5 per cent, would in your 
 opinion be an injury to the business that you and your associates 
 conduct? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Well, I can answer that, " yes " and " no." 
 
 The Chairman. That is interesting and I would like to get that. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. The purpose is this: It is the unrest of the mer- 
 chants to-day that has disturbed our commercial welfare. 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, stability of your protection is 
 your desidiratum. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Well, you can not have a stability of prices, because 
 the prices of the raw material fluctuate, and it is contrary to certain 
 other regulations with which you are familiar, but it is the tendency 
 to-day to disturb conditions; that the merchants from the retailer 
 up to the manufacturer, have attempted to line business up to meet 
 those conditions. 
 
 The Chairman. Supposing you are doing $50,000,000 a year, a 
 business of $50,000,000 a year, and you put an accounting specialist 
 or expert into your methods of operation, and he comes to you with 
 a report that he can make a saving in your operations of 5 per cent 
 by the adoption of a new method, and he can demonstrate to your 
 mind satisfactorily that you can do that. Don't you make that 
 change ? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. In some instances, yes; in some instances, no. That 
 is, certain firms make that their business. Say we are doing a busi- 
 ness of $50,000,000 a year, and we are making a certain percentage 
 on the capital invested, or a percentage on the gross. An increase 
 of five million on that would reduce your percentage of net profit 
 on it, but give you that much more outlay. Some merchants want 
 that, but others do not. 
 
 The Chairman. If one of your competitors could, by the adoption 
 of a certain system, reduce the cost of operation 5 per cent, you would 
 necessarily be forced, sooner or later, given the opportunity, to adopt 
 the same improvement in methods? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Senator, here is just the point. It is not that there 
 are opportunities coming for reduction in these expenses, anything 
 like the necessity for increased expenses which are coming all the 
 time. 
 
 The Chairman. I understand that; but your whole line of devel- 
 opment is along the line of reduction and operation and increased 
 profit. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Well, worlds of them to-day. Senator, are showing 
 
 much lighter hairs in their heads due to their sitting up of nights 
 
 -thinking of a possibility of not reducing 5 per cent, but reducing 
 
 one-half of 1 per cent. With concerns doing a business of $50,- 
 
 000,000 a year a half of 1 per cent is a great big thing. 
 
540 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. We concur on that absolutely ; but when you say, 
 if I understand you correctly, that you would not want, or that any 
 of the firms or merchants or corporations in your organization would 
 be against the immediate reduction of 5 per cent of the transportation 
 charges of this Country, if such a thing were feasible, practical, or 
 possible, I can not understand your viewpoint. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Well, of course, as you put it to me, I accept an in- 
 ference from your remark possibly that was not intended; the pos- 
 sible reduction in this transportation, as you have it, you have in 
 mind through the Government. 
 
 The Chairman. Oh, no; I am taking the present machinery in 
 its operation. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Nearly everyone in business would welcome some- 
 thing of the kind. Many of them would put the saving in their 
 pockets, if they could, and feel it was well earned and deserved. 
 
 The Chairman. It is only a question of time when the consumer, 
 if he is powerful enough, could reap some benefit. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. That is it. 
 
 The Chairman. You will favor the committee, will you, with the 
 reasons upon which these premises are based ? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. With pleasure. I will be very glad to ask this com- 
 mittee, of which Mr. J. V. Farwell, of Chicago, is the chairman, to 
 submit the information to you. 1 
 
 The Chairman. I know Mr. Farwell. I will be glad to get the 
 specific demonstrations from which they arrive at these conclusions. 
 
 Now, are there any other statements you would like to make for the 
 benefit of the committee? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Nothing that I can think of, Senator. You will 
 understand, of course, that my remarks entirely are largely personal 
 and from association with these gentlemen. Some expressions must 
 be considered as personal statements ; others I have made were in the 
 minds of these gentlemen. You understand that I am here as the 
 official representative, and I am not equipped, as I told you, with 
 the details that went to make up the findings. 
 
 The Chairman. Before you conclude and we adjourn, I would like 
 to ask you this question from a business standpoint: The Govern- 
 ment to-day has 42,000 rural routes ; of that number 100 are operat- 
 ing under full peak, carrying all they can. In round numbers, 41,900 
 of these routes could carry four times the load they carry to-day. 
 There is, from a business viewpoint, is there not, an apparent waste 
 of 75 per cent of the efficiency of that department? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Yes; it would appear that way. 
 
 The Chairman. From a business standpoint, pure and simple, 
 would you believe, as a business man, and would your purpose not be 
 if it were a private enterprise, to utilize that waste and make it effi- 
 cient and accomplish something and return something? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And you would criticize your board of directors 
 who had that under their control if they failed to do that, wouldn't 
 you, and substitute somebody else if you had a control of the stock? 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Yes. 
 
 1 Not yet received. 
 
PARCEL POST. 54; 
 
 The Chairman. As Senator Bristow has, to my mind, clearl; 
 pointed out, it is inconceivable that there can be any oppositioi 
 from any sources upon the utilization of all that machinery on rura 
 routes so that it will go and operate the whole peak of its load, pro 
 vided the community there can utilize it. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Yes ; you are putting that now as illustrating hypo 
 thetically that the Government can operate as a business proposi 
 tion. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. No business house would to-day permit any one o 
 their individual departments to run behind in their percentage neces 
 sary to keep up their end of it, unless it was serving some certau 
 purpose; nor would they permit that department to force a punish 
 ment on the other departments. 
 
 The Chairman. Sure. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. You must take the other departments into considera 
 tion when you are correcting any individual, because the connectioi 
 all comes up to the board of directors. 
 
 The Chairman. And the stockholders have to be the beneficiarie 
 or the sufferers. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Exactly. 
 
 The Chairman. It is a question from the dollar standpoint as t< 
 the greater saving. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. There is no doubt the board of directors are equippei 
 to know what is the best for their organization. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, they only come to that conclusion by re 
 search, study, and determination. 
 
 Mr. Dallam. Yes; by knowing their own department. 
 
 The Chairman. That is what we are trying to accomplish. W 
 are very much obliged, Mr. Dallam, for your views. 
 
 (Thereupon, at 2 o'clock p. m., the committee took a recess unti 
 4 o'clock p. m.) 
 
 After reclss. 
 
 The subcommittee met at -4 o'clock p. m. 
 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), Senato 
 Joseph L. Bristow, and Senator Nathan P. Bryan. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF ME. E. B. MOON, SECRETARY OF THE AMERICA] 
 LEAGUE OF ASSOCIATIONS, CHICAGO, ILL. 
 
 (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will' you kindly state your age and present occn 
 pation ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I am secretary of the American League of Associa 
 tions ; my age is 38 years. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you elaborate, for the information of th 
 committee, as to what you mean by the American League of Associa 
 tions ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. The American League of Associations is an organiza 
 tion of wholesalers made up of members from Chicago, St. Louis 
 Omaha, Kansas City, St. Joseph, Buffalo, New York, Baltimore, am 
 a number of other places. 
 
542 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the membership of the association? 
 
 Mr. Moon. The membership of the association? I do not under- 
 stand your question, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. I want to know the scope of your association; how 
 large an organization you represent. 
 
 Mr. Moon. We are organized for the purpose of furthering the 
 development of the home town, good roads, and everything which 
 will tend to develop the country communities and towns and villages. 
 
 The Chairman. What States are you organized in? 
 
 Mr. Moon. We are not incorporated, but we are organized in 
 Illinois. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you are here in a representative capacity 
 for that association which represents the State of Illinois? 
 
 Mr. Moon. As an association we represent wholesalers in all those 
 leading cities, but not all are in those leading cities. 
 
 The Chairman. Could you not give concretely just what the 
 association represents ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. We have about 300 members. They are firms rather 
 than individuals. 
 
 The Chairman. And your organizations thus far effected are in 
 what States ? Just name the States, if you will. 
 
 Mr. Moon. The States of Oregon, California, Texas, Louisiana, 
 Mississippi, Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, 
 Wisconsin, Minnesota, Washington, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Kentucky, 
 West Virginia, Maryland, New York, and Massachusetts. I think 
 that covers them all. 
 
 The Chairman. What is your method of organization; what 
 officers have you ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. We have a president and a vice president, an executive 
 council, an executive committee, State vice presidents, a board of 
 governors, the chairman of the board of governors, and an executive 
 secretary. 
 
 The Chairman. For each State? 
 
 Mr. Moon. For the national organization. 
 
 The Chairman. And the location of your main office is where ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. At Chicago. 
 
 The Chairman. And your membership some 300? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And you are here to present the views of your 
 association ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You say you have a written statement? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. We would be very glad to hear it. 
 
 Mr. Moon. In your letter of some days ago you asked me to dis- 
 cuss this question from the governmental side, from the side of who 
 would be benefited, and the cost of performing the service. My state- 
 ment is directed to this general proposition. At the hearing in June 
 before the House committee this general statement of the wishes 
 of the advocate of a parcel-post system was made by Mr. Sulzer, and 
 it is to this general proposition that I shall address my remarks. 
 
 Mr. Sulzer then made this statement: 
 
 What this country now wants— what Congress should give it — is a general 
 parcel post covering much of the business of public transportation. 
 
PAKCEL POST. 543 
 
 That seems to be the basis of the advocacy of the parcel post by 
 most of its proponents. 
 
 The parcel-post question, when stripped of its many ramifications, 
 resolves itself, as we see it, into at least three leading propositions : 
 
 Shall the Government establish a parcel post and thereby encroach 
 still further into the field of individual enterprise ? 
 
 If a parcel post were established, who would be injured? Who 
 would be benefited ? 
 
 Should not the proposed legislation to establish a parcel post be 
 approached in harmony with the usual practice of the Government 
 when large interests are involved and in conformity with usual and 
 good business practice? 
 
 The Chairman. Now, Mr. Moon, do you concede that we already 
 have a parcel post or not under the present fourth-class mail di- 
 vision ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Then it is not an establishment of a parcel post, 
 but an enlargement. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes; I concur in that. But, however, that is not the 
 popular view. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, you are giving us your views, are you not ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Then it is simply the question of increasing the 
 scope of the present function of governmental operation, is it not? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Well, I am willing to concede to that. 
 
 The members of the American League of Associations are con- 
 servative business men. 
 
 The Chairman. What particular proposed parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. To extend the weight limits. 
 
 The Chairman. To any extent at all ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And any decrease of postage? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Well, I have not gone into that question of decreased 
 postage. I am not prepared to talk on that phase of the question. 
 Generally, we have been favorable to the reduction in postage. 
 
 The Chairman. But your opposition is primarily against the in- 
 crease of the weight limits from 4 pounds— any — increase— and 
 specifically to 11 pounds. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes ; or any other weight. 
 
 The Chairman. Any figures whatever. But you are not prepared 
 to make a statement against any decrease in postage under the pres- 
 ent weights classification. 
 
 Mr. Moon. I would not commit myself on that, because I have not 
 gone into the question. 
 
 We look with anxiety and with disapproval upon socialistic and 
 paternalistic legislation. 
 
 We agree with John Stuart Mill, who says : 
 
 A general objection to government ageucy is that every increase of the func- 
 tions devolving on the Government is an increase of its power, both in form oi 
 authority and, still more, in the indirect form of influence. 
 
 The Chairman. Did you appear before the House committee? 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir. 
 
544 PAHCED POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Is this simply a repetition of the views you pre- 
 sented before the House committee ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. No, sir ; it has never been presented at all. 
 
 The Chairman. We would be very glad to get anything that has 
 not been covered in the report of the House committee. 
 
 Mr. Moon. It is not a duplicate. This paper you will find some- 
 what elaborated, but it has been submitted to the members — a great 
 majority of them — of the association, and to the executive committee, 
 and I got their views on the question. 
 
 The Chairman. And they approved it? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir. 
 
 This distinguished political economist says, still further, that 
 "The present civilization tends so strongly to make the power of 
 persons acting in masses the only substantial power in society that 
 there never was more necessity for surrounding individual inde- 
 pendence of thought, speech, and conduct with the most powerful 
 defenses, in order to maintain that originality of mind and individ- 
 uality of character which are the only source of any real progress and 
 of most of the qualities which make the human race much superior 
 to any herd of animals. Hence, it is no less important in a demo- 
 cratic than in any other government that all tendency on the part 
 of the public authorities to stretch their interference and assume a 
 power of any sort which can easily be dispensed with should be re- 
 garded with unremitting jealousy." 
 
 That " Every additional function undertaken by the Government 
 is a fresh occupation imposed upon a body overcharged with duties." 
 
 We agree with him in the statement that " The people understand 
 their own business and their own interests better, and care for them 
 more, than the government does or can be expected to do. This 
 maxim holds true throughout the greatest part of the business life, 
 and wherever it is true we ought to condemn every kind of govern- 
 ment intervention that conflicts with it." 
 
 That " the inferiority of government agency, for example, in a*ny 
 of the common operations of industry or commerce is proved by the 
 fact that it is hardly ever able to maintain itself in equal compe- 
 tition with individual agency where the individuals possess the 
 requisite degree of industrial enterprise and can command the neces- 
 sary assemblage of means." 
 
 That " all the facilities which a government enjoys of access to 
 information, all the means which it possesses of remunerating and 
 therefore of commanding the best available talent in the market, 
 are not an equivalent for the one great disadvantage of an inferior 
 interest in the result." 
 
 And that " in proportion as the people are accustomed to manage 
 their affairs by their own active intervention instead of leaving them 
 to the Government, their desires will turn to repelling tyranny 
 rather than to tyrannizing; while in proportion as all real initiative 
 and direction resides in the Government, and individuals habitually 
 feel and act as under its perpetual tutelage, popular institutions 
 develop in them not the desire of freedom but an unmeasured appe- 
 tite for place and power, diverting the intelligence and activity 
 of the country from its principal business to a wretched competi- 
 tion for the selfish prizes and petty vanities' of office." 
 
PABCEL, POST. 545 
 
 We agree with Prof. Hadley, of Yale, who makes these pertinent 
 statements : 
 
 We need measures which shall increase individual responsibility rather than 
 diminish it; measures which shall give us more self-reliance and less reliance 
 on society as a whole. 
 
 The Chairman. We would like to get the views of a number of 
 gentlemen waiting here, and we are going to be pretty crowded 
 for time for the hearing and would prefer to hear specific data 
 bearing upon the subject matter rather than generalities covering 
 the whole scope of government. 
 
 Mr. Moon. I will tell you, Senator, that this question as it ap- 
 pears to the business men of this country has an important bearing 
 from a Government standpoint. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, you consider it as fundamental ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir; and for that reason I have taken the pains 
 to discuss the question from that angle. It has a practical relation 
 to this question which I shall show you if you are willing to be 
 patient. 
 
 The Chairman. I shall be very glad to hear it. Will you kindly 
 go on? 
 
 Mr. Moon. The man who is in the habit of looking at indirect 
 consequences will see that the undiscriminating attempt to prevent 
 evil often results in preventing an even greater amount of good. He 
 will be disinclined, except as a last resort, to put the business into 
 the hands of a government whose agents are almost always chosen 
 on other grounds than those of industrial efficiency and whose 
 methods are much less flexible than those of a private corporation. 
 
 Every extension of Government activity into new fields restricts 
 private enterprise in two ways ; first, by limiting the field for invest- 
 ment of private, capital, and, second, by possibly, if not probably, 
 appropriating through taxation a part of the returns from private 
 enterprise in all other fields. 
 
 Prof. Hadley says still further that " the Italian authorities 15 
 years ago, after the fullest investigation, came to a decision adverse 
 to Government management of railroads, and this decision was based 
 largely on the ground that politics would corrupt the railroad man- 
 agement and the railroad management would corrupt politics. So 
 long as an administration is to any considerable degree swayed by 
 partisan considerations instead of industrial ones, every extension 
 of Government activity to new fields must be regarded with grave 
 apprehension." 
 
 We agree with Prof. Woodrow Wilson, who says : 
 
 The aim of the State should be to aid the individual to the fullest and best 
 possible realizntion of his sociality. Its plan is to create the best and fairest 
 opportunities for the individual, and it has discovered that the way to do this 
 is by no means itself to undertake the administration of the individual by old- 
 time futile methods of guardianship. 
 
 Prof. Wilson says still further : 
 
 No student of history can wisely censure those who protest against vState 
 paternalism. 
 
 The hope of society lies in an indefinite individual variety, in the 
 freest possible play of individual forces ; only in that can it find that 
 wealth of resource which constitutes civilization, with all its appli- 
 
546 PAECEL POST. 
 
 ances for satisfying human wants and mitigating human sufferings, 
 all its enticements to thought and spurs to action. 
 
 Already the Government is building its own warships, recently it 
 has entered the field of banking in competition with our savings 
 banks, and it is now proposed that it shall go into the express busi- 
 ness under the guise of a parcel post. It has expressed a favorable 
 inclination toward operating the coal mines of Alaska. 
 
 The question may very properly be asked: How much further 
 will it go? Will this be all? 
 
 If the Government can compete in the express business why not in 
 the railroad business, the steamboat business, the milling business, 
 the packing business, or the clothing business ? 
 
 A parcel-post system has been advocated before the House com- 
 mittee because it is claimed that the Government can deliver parcels 
 to the farmers in the rural communities at less cost to them than can 
 the express companies. 
 
 In nearly all lines of human endeavor, it could be claimed that the 
 Government by the aid of special appropriations could work cheaper 
 than individuals. 
 
 We believe that the time has come when the Government must 
 cease to engage in various enterprises in competition with its citizens. 
 Otherwise, individual effort is a failure, and socialism is the true 
 principle of government. 
 
 We are opposed to a parcel post of any kind on the broad general 
 ground that the Government should not further engage in enter- 
 prises in competition with its citizens, that our Government has 
 already approached the halting line of socialistic and paternalistic 
 legislation. 
 
 We believe that to establish a parcel post would prove the last 
 step toward Government ownership with all its attendant evils and 
 dangers. 
 
 The Chairman. But you concede that we already have one in 
 •existence. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Up to 4 pounds in weight ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And an increase of that to 5 pounds would mean 
 immediate paternalism, would it ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. If you make that increase we feel that way about it. 
 We feel already that the step up to 4 pounds was wrong. 
 
 We believe that a parcel post would w T ork a hardship on the 
 villages, small towns, and the smaller cities of the country, because 
 it would tend to take away the business of the retail merchants in 
 them. 
 
 The Chairman. How can you demonstrate that ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I am going to demonstrate that right away. 
 
 The taking away or transfer of trade to other channels will of 
 necessity drive employees and principals elsewhere. Naturally, fol- 
 lowing the trend of trade they would go to the larger cities. 
 
 With such a result capital would be withdrawn; the banks, the 
 churches, and the schools would be correspondingly affected; the 
 army of commercial travelers would cease their frequent visits; the 
 hotel keepers, and the liverymen would find their business seriously 
 depleted ; and no doubt all of these would move to the larger centers 
 of trade. Property values would therefore decrease and a loss of 
 
PAKCEL POST. 547 
 
 millions of dollars invested in property in the village, the small 
 towns, and the smaller cities of the country would follow. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You certainly believe that would happen if the 
 size of the package were increased to 11 pounds ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You state that with all seriousness to the com- 
 mittee ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I do ; yes, sir. 
 
 Such a change, we believe, would injure thousands and thousands 
 of citizens who are not retail merchants, but whose welfare and pros- 
 perity is closely linked to that of the retail merchant in these towns. 
 
 The tendency would be to drive population to the big, already 
 overcrowded cities, and then would come all the evil results which 
 follow from a congestion of population. 
 
 Wendell Phillips has said : 
 
 The civilization that lingers beautifully on the hillsides of New England, 
 nestles sweetly in the valleys of Vermont, the moment it approaches a crowd 
 like Boston or a million men gathered in one place, like New York, rots ; it 
 can not stand the greater centers of modern civilization. 
 
 These little social centers that have the store, the church, the 
 school, the shop, etc., are the very bases of our civilization. 
 
 In these centers germinate the forces that make for real man- 
 hood and womanhood — the forces that give us strength and vigor as 
 a nation. 
 
 These little trade centers are training grounds for young men and 
 young women, and as Prof. Wilson has well said : 
 
 The cultivation of the active faculties by exercise, diffused through the whole 
 community, is itself one of the most valuable of national possessions. 
 
 The Country Life Commission, appointed by President Roose- 
 velt, in its report makes this significant statement : 
 
 The only thing needed in farming communities is that the farmer and his 
 family shall get away from home more, that he may become more of a social 
 being than he has been in the past. 
 
 The small towns and villages that dot the map of the United 
 States are the social centers of the farmer and his family for miles 
 around. It is in these little social centers that the school, the church, 
 and the lodge will be formed. It is there that the farmer's family at- 
 tend church and school. It is there the lodge, church, and school 
 entertainments are held. These influences as they exist in these small 
 towns have helped to develop the mental and physical strength of 
 our citizenship. 
 
 We believe that the depletion of the small towns will injure the 
 farmer, in whose name and for whose benefit parcel post is proposed. 
 
 The retail merchant has been a necessary factor in the building up 
 of these trade centers, and he is a necessary factor in maintaining 
 them. We believe that his trade will be transferred to other channels 
 by a parcel post, and we are opposed to any legislation that will drive 
 the country merchant out of business, deplete these towns, and destroy 
 these social centers. 
 
 With such a result, who will be injured? The answer is plain. 
 The retail merchant, the clerks who depend upon him for employ- 
 ment, the hotel keeper, the liveryman, the commercial- traveler, the 
 wholesaler who sells the merchant goods, every citizen in these towns 
 
548 PAECEI, POST. 
 
 who owns a home, the farmer whose social and trading center will be 
 destroyed, whose local market will be wiped out, all classes in the big 
 cities, and especially the laboring man, because this movement of 
 the population from the small towns and villages of the country will 
 prove a strong and important force in still further increasing the cost 
 of living. Such movements have always resulted so. 
 Adam Smith says on this question : 
 
 The great rise in the price both of hogs and poultry has in Great Britain 
 been frequently imputed to the diminution of the number of cottages and other 
 small occupiers of land ; an event which may have contributed to raise the 
 price of those articles both somewhat sooner and somewhat faster than it 
 would otherwise have risen. 
 
 And last, but not least, the Nation itself will be injured by the 
 destruction of an important and necessary force of progress that 
 makes for originality of mind and individuality of character, and 
 again it will be injured by the degenerating influences of a crowding 
 and congested population in the big cities where men lose their indi- 
 viduality and become mere machines. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Moon, what we want is specific information 
 as to where all these evils will result from the increase of the present 
 fourth-class mail matter weight from 4 pounds to 11 pounds. 
 
 Mr. Moon. I am going to demonstrate that, as you will find, in 
 a very few minutes. I shall show you how it is going to affect the 
 retail merchants and put them out of business. 
 
 The Chairman. Granting, for the sake of argument, that all 
 these things would exist upon the elimination of the retail mer- 
 chants, what we want is your proof as to how the retail merchant 
 is going to be eliminated by the increase of weight from 4 pounds to 
 11 pounds on fourth-class mail matter? 
 
 Mr. Moon. That is what I am going to give you. We believe that 
 we need laws that will encourage and conserve these small towns 
 and villages rather than legislation that will deplete them. 
 
 We believe with Prof. Hadley, who says : 
 
 AVe need measures which shall increase individual responsibility rather than 
 diminish it, measures which shall give us more self-reliance and less reliance 
 on society as a whole. 
 
 John Stuart Mill makes this pertinent statement: 
 
 The only security against political slavery is the check maintained over the 
 governors by the diffusion of intelligence, activity, and public spirit among the 
 governed. 
 
 Experience proves the extreme difficulty of permanently keeping 
 up a sufficiently high standard of those qualities, as the advance of 
 civilization removes one after another of those forces which develop 
 strength, skill, and courage. It is, therefore, of supreme importance 
 that all classes of the community, down to the lowest, should have 
 much to do for themselves. 
 
 Again he says : 
 
 A people among whom there is no habit of spontaneous action— who look 
 habitually to their government to command or prompt them in all matters of 
 joint concern— who expect to have everything done for them, except what can 
 be made an affair of mere habit and routine — have their faculties only half 
 developed ; their education is defective in one of its most important branches. 
 
PARCEL POST. 549 
 
 The retail merchant is the central figure in maintaining these 
 small towns ; and we believe that a parcel post will injure or destroy 
 <he business. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, demonstrate that, will you ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir; right now I am going to demonstrate that. 
 Because under the operation of the second-class mail rate by act 
 of 1874, which built up periodical literature, 2,000 of the 3,000 book- 
 stores were put out of business, and most of those now in existence 
 are located in the big cities. If a 4-pound limit will put the book- 
 sellers out of business, there can be no doubt but that an 11-pound 
 limit will put two-thirds of the retail merchants in all lines out of 
 business. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Are there but 1,000 bookstores now in the 
 United States? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Where did you get that information? 
 
 Mr. Moon. From Mr. Charles W. Burrows, who has made a 12 
 years' study of this question. He will be before you next Monday. 
 
 Senator Bristow. He will be before us? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Well, we will talk with him about that when he 
 comes before the committee. 
 
 Mr. Moon. He is generally recognized as an authority on this 
 question. 
 
 Again, rural free delivery, where it is in operation, by diverting 
 the trend of trade from the small towns has reduced the number of 
 merchants 10 per cent, simply by making it unnecessary for the peo- 
 ple to go to town. . 
 
 The Chairman. Then you think the rural free delivery is an in- 
 jury, do you ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I do not say that. I said it reduced the number of 
 merchants 10 per cent. 
 
 The Chaibman. How? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Because it has made it unnecessary for the people to 
 go to town to buy goods. 
 
 The Chaibman. How did you acquire that information? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I took Bradstreets for the States, counted the mer- 
 chants listed 10 years ago, when rural free delivery was new, and 
 counted them now. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And you attributed the figures entirely to the 
 establishment of rural free delivery ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir; except in certain localities. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Did you inquire to see whether any of this de- 
 crease was in places where no rural deliveries originated ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. We took these figures where rural delivery was estab- 
 lished, and not in places where it is not established. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What decline was there in places where there 
 was no rural free delivery ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I have not prepared any figures. I do not think there 
 was any decline. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Have you the statistics available from whicli 
 you acquired that information ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I have not. 
 
550 PABCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Will you let this committee have the statement 
 as to the number of stores that have been decreased in cities and 
 towns where rural delivery exists? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I do not know that they have been decreased. 
 
 Senator Beistow. I understood you to say that they had been de- 
 creased 10 per cent. 
 
 Mr. Moon. I understood you to say where there was no rural free 
 delivery. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Give a comparison by States and towns in detail. 
 
 Mr. Moon. That will be quite a little work. It will take some days, 
 but we will furnish it. 1 
 
 Again, the establishment of large department stores in the big 
 cities has brought about this very result. In these communities where 
 former good stores have been wiped out property values have de- 
 creased, churches have gone down, and the young people who were 
 employed in them were forced into the big department stores under 
 conditions which have not resulted in their good or in the good of the 
 community. 
 
 This change, as Hon. Martin B. Madden, a Member of Congress 
 from Chicago, has observed, has worked out for the good of nobody 
 but the big department stores and all of these forces in these com- 
 munities which have tended to develop young men and women of 
 originality of mind and individuality of character have been lost. 
 This Nation can not afford to permit such a result in the small coun- 
 try communities. 
 
 Senator Beistow. That is, you think that with the parcel post 
 the department store would develop in the country community? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I made the statement that the outlying stores in the 
 big cities have been wiped out by their competition with the depart- 
 ment stores, and the results have been identical, which we think will 
 follow if parcel post is to be established. 
 
 Senator Beistow. That is, the department stores in the cities have 
 done away with a great many retail stores ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. That is the idea ; in outlying districts. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Do you not think that possibly the establishment 
 cf large department stores in the cities has been responsible for the 
 decline of a number of stores that are in existence now? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Do you mean in the country communities? 
 
 Senator Beistow. No; in the cities. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Most assuredly. It has put a great many of the smaller 
 stores out of business. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Eural delivery did not have anything to do 
 with that, did it ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. There is no rural delivery there to operate. We have 
 to trace the causes from the things we have before us. 
 
 Senator Beistow. I understood you to say that you charged the 
 10 per cent decline in the number of stores there to rural delivery, 
 and now you are giving another cause. 
 
 Mr. Moon. I am giving another result. 
 
 Senator Beistow. So there were really two reasons for the decline 
 in the number of stores instead of one? 
 
 1 Not yet received. 
 
parcel post. 55; 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Beistow. And there was a 10 per cent decline in all foi 
 the country? 
 
 Mr. Moon. In the country alone. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That did not include the cities ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Not at all. 
 
 The Chairman. Because of this decline, due to the mail-ordei 
 house and the department store, would you advocate legislation, i: 
 such were practicable, that would prevent their operation? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Now, Senator, you understand that in the first plac< 
 I did not say that this decline of the retail merchants was due t( 
 the mail-order houses at all. I said it was due to the fact that ii 
 made it unnecessary for the people to come to town. 
 
 The Chairman. I am speaking of the cities. 
 
 Mr. Moon. But that competition has been a factor. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, do you believe in competition? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Certainly; and I think the retail mail-order houses 
 perhaps, have resulted in some good. I am connected with a retai 
 store in a country town of 300 — was reared in one — I am not her< 
 to ask for any discrimination against the retail mail-order houses 
 nor any special legislation in favor of the retail merchants. W< 
 do not need any. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the cause, then, of this growth of th( 
 mail-order house to the detriment of the stores in the city in com 
 petition with them ? Would you explain that ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I will explain it. I have that outlined in my paper 
 but in brief I would say that that was to a very great extent an ad 
 vertising proposition. 
 
 The Chairman. But do not the stores in the cities advertise, as 
 well? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Department stores — yes, sir; but you understand thai 
 the retail -mail-order houses do not sell in the large cities. They dc 
 not sell in Chicago, for instance. 
 
 The Chairman. This is entirely outside? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Entirely outside. 
 
 The Chairman. But how about the department stores? 
 
 Mr. Moon. They do; they have a retail mail-order section, but ii 
 is not developed and the country communities do not get the bom- 
 bardment of advertisements from the department stores that they gel 
 from the mail-order houses. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the whole result hinges on better advertise 
 ment, does it ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Not altogether, but that is a very important factor. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, where does the governmental organizatior 
 bring about such a result ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. If you establish a parcel post and give a delivery sys 
 tem to the retail mail-order houses, that is where your trouble come; 
 in. That is where the basis of our objection lies. While it costs th( 
 retail merchant a little more for his goods, it costs him less to operate 
 and that perhaps equalizes with the retail mail-order system of bettei 
 buying. Their operation costs them more ; then the added freight or 
 the item and the trouble of getting the goods, the trouble of going k 
 
 21845— vol 2—12 19 
 
552 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 town and getting the goods when they are sent, the trouble of writing 
 the letter, and all those things are important factors. 
 
 The Chaieman. In whose favor? 
 
 Mr. Moon. In favor of the retail merchant; but notwithstanding 
 the fact that they offer alluring prices they do not get all of the 
 business. 
 
 The Chairman. Who offers the alluring prices ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. The retail mail-order houses. The retail merchants to 
 some extent counteract that, but the trouble is the more you induce 
 people to stay at home the easier you make it for the people to buy 
 their goods and get them delivered out in the country, and the more 
 difficult would become the problem of retailing. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Then you would impose a hardship on the men in 
 the country in order that the retail men may make a profit? 
 
 Mr. Moon. No, sir; it is not a hardship when you deny a delivery 
 system which he has never had. 
 
 The Chaieman. You may just as well say, then, given a new terri- 
 tory, you are not working any hardship if you prevent railroad and 
 steamboat development in that territory. 
 
 Mr. Moon. I can not see the connection, because the delivery system 
 is the thing that makes the competition more unfair to the retail 
 merchant. 
 
 Senator Beistow. How is it unfair when he has the same opportu- 
 nities that everybody else has ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. He does not. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Why ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Because, in the first place, he can not get the chance of 
 business. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Why ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Because the catalogue-house catalogue goes out there to 
 the farmer's door. 
 
 Senator Beistow. His advertisement goes, does it not ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. No retail merchant that is doing a moderate business 
 can maintain the staff that is necessary in doing the same kind of ad- 
 vertising that is done by the mail-order house. There are but few 
 retail merchants that can do that. Advertising is a business in itself, 
 and it requires a peculiar ability. 
 
 Senator Beistow. As I understand, you are opposed to this rural 
 delivery parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I have not got to that Senator; but I might say that I 
 am. I do not know anything about the local parcel post. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Are you going to speak of that later ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I am going to touch on it ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chaieman. I would suggest that you bring out what you con- 
 sider the most important features of your paper so as to give an 
 opportunity to the members of the committee to ask for further 
 elaboration of those points if we desire them. We would, of course, 
 be very glad to print the whole paper in the hearing, however. 
 
 Mr. Moon. And again the advocates of a parcel post placed this 
 desired result foremost in their advocacy of this legislation. They 
 have implicit faith that a parcel post will put the retailers and 
 wholesalers out of business and that it will reserve the entire com- 
 mercial system in the United States. 
 
PARCEL POST. 553 
 
 Senator Beistow. You say the advocates. Whom do you style as 
 advocates of the parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. The- people who are represented by the Postal Prog- 
 ress League and by the farm and trade journals of the country. 
 
 Senator Bristow. "What is the Postal Progress League ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. It is an organization which developed a propaganda 
 for parcel post in dozens of ways. 
 
 (In a hearing before Subcommittee No. 4 of the Committee on 
 the Post Office and Post Eoads, House of [Representatives, June, 1911, 
 Mr. Frederick C. Beach, president of the Postal Progress League, 
 submitted the following list of persons, firms, and corporations whc 
 were either members of the league or had made subscriptions to it:) 
 
 American Manufacturers' Export Association, Fifth Avenue Building, Madi- 
 son Square, New York City, " to foster foreign trade." 
 
 The Gorham Co., Fifth Avenue and Thirty-sixth Street, silversmiths. 
 
 The iEollan Co., 362 Fifth Avenue, musical instruments. 
 
 Munn & Co., 361 Broadway, publishers. 
 
 Dodd, Mead & Co., Fourth Avenue and Thirtieth Street, publishers. 
 
 Brentano's, Fifth Avenue and Twenty-seventh Street, publishers. 
 
 H. H. Jackson, Bridgeport, Conn., book dealer. 
 
 B. H. Ingersoll & Bro., 45 John Street, watches. 
 
 International Steam Pump Co., 115 Broadway, New York City, pumps. 
 
 International Silver Co., 9 Maiden Lane, New York City, silversmiths. 
 
 Theodore B. Starr (Inc.), 206 Fifth Avenue, New York City, silversmiths. 
 
 Betail Dry Goods Association, 156 Fifth Avenue, New York City, department 
 stores. 
 
 Standard Gauge Steel Co., Beaver Falls, Pa., manufacturers. 
 
 Worcester Pressed Steel Co., Worcester, Mass., manufacturers. 
 
 American Oil Cloth Co., 262 Canal Street, manufacturers. 
 
 Theodore A. Kohn & Sons, 321 Fifth Avenue,- New York City, jewelers. 
 
 The Warner Bros. Co., 225 Fifth Avenue, corset manufacturers. 
 
 A. H. Sands & Co., 227 Fourth Avenue, New York City, silks. 
 American Gem & Pearl Co., 14 Church Street, New York City, jewelry. 
 G. & A. Wise, 44 West Twenty-first Street, New York City, importers. 
 Schwarzenbach, Huber & Co., 42 Broome Street, New York City, silks. 
 Alfred H. Post, 287 Broadway, New York City, foreign freight. 
 
 Sidney Blumenthal & Co. (Inc.), 453 Broome Street, New York City, velvets 
 Burr & Hard wick, 132 Fifth Avenue, New York City, laces and veils. 
 George L. Shuman & Co., 156 Fifth Avenue, New York City. 
 Kops Bros., Twelfth Street and Fourth Avenue, corsets. 
 Louis Metzger & Co., 637 Broadway, New York City, millinery. 
 Hoggson & Pettis Manufacturing Co., New Haven, Conn., hardware. 
 Flatau & Olesheimer Co., 97 Fifth Avenue, New York City, embroideries. 
 Manufacturers' Association, Providence, R. I. 
 Long, Sperling & Stern, 20 Waverly Place, linings. 
 Ignaz Strauss & Co., 684 Broadway, New York City, fans. 
 J. & F. Goldstone & Co., 1195-1203 Broadway, New York City, cloaks an( 
 suits. 
 Belding Bros. & Co., 526 Broadway, New York City, silk manufacturers. 
 Geo. W. Cane, 43 East Tenth Street. New York City, manufacturers. 
 Henry E. Frankenberg Co., 457 Broome Street, New York City, yarns. 
 Hess, Goldsmith & Co., 239 Fourth Avenue, silks. 
 
 B. F. Drakenfield & Co., 27 Park Place, colors. 
 F. Gerli & Co., 52 Greene Street, raw silk. 
 
 A. A. Vantine & Co., 879 Broadway, importers. 
 
 H. A. Caesar Co., 50 Union Square, New York City, importers. 
 
 Simon Ascher & Co., 596 Broadway, New York City, knit goods. 
 
 Gartner Sons & Co., incorporated, 478 Broadway, New York City, ribbons. 
 
 Crescent Co., incorporated, 596 Broadway. 
 
 Mount & Woodhull, 26 Maiden Lane, diamonds. 
 
 J. H. & C. K. Eagle, 454 Broome Street, silk manufacturers. 
 
 The Chandler Co", Springfield, Mass., manufacturers. 
 
 L & E. Stirn, 489-493 Broome Street, importers and commission merchants. 
 
554 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Benedict & Warner, 15 Maiden Lane, New York City, precious stones. 
 
 Fred Butterfield & Co., 725 Broadway, New York City, dry goods. 
 
 Adolplie Schwob, 170 Broadway, New York City, watch importers. 
 
 A. Ludeke & Co., 170 Broadway, New York City, precious stones. 
 
 Winchester & Co., 101 Beeknian Street, medicines. 
 
 C. Dorflinger & Sons, 36 Murray Street, New York City, cut glass. 
 
 Smith & Kaufman, 569 Broadway, New York City, manufacturers silk ribbons. 
 
 E. & J. Bass, 610 Broadway, New York City, jewelers. 
 
 Edward E. Cary Co., incorporated, 30 Church Street, New York City, im- 
 porters. 
 
 J. C. & W. E. Powers, 65 Duane Street, New York City, printers. 
 
 Motion Picture Distributing Co., Ill East Fourteenth Street, New York City, 
 films. 
 
 Wendell, Fay & Co., 817 Broadway, New York City, commission merchants. 
 
 A. H. Rice Co., 103 Fifth Avenue, New York City, braids. 
 
 Bennett Manufacturing Co., 175 Broadway, manufacturers. 
 
 Germainia Importing Co., 41 Union Square, paper. 
 
 Spitzer Bros. & Co., 87 Fifth Avenue, New York City, laces. 
 
 Kneipp Linen Mesh Co., 40 East Nineteenth Street, New York City. 
 
 Power & Allan, incorporated, 170 Broadway, New York City, diamond im- 
 porters. 
 
 Solax Co., 147 Fourth Avenue, New York City, film manufacturers. 
 
 Fellows & Co., 729 Broadway, New York City, collars. 
 
 Wm. Green, 627 West Forty-third Street, New York City, printing and binding. 
 
 Susquehanna Silk Mills, 18 West Eighteenth Street, New York City, silk 
 manufacturers. 
 
 Lumley & Blumlein, 656-658 Broadway, New York City, hats. 
 
 H. V. Keep Shirt Co., 15 West Thirty-second Street, New York City, manu- 
 facturers. 
 
 Calisher & Co., 140 West Broadway, New York City, perfumers. 
 
 Clias. Adler's Sons, 527 Fifth Avenue, precious stones. 
 
 C. Willenborg & Co., 315 Fourth Avenue, New York City, trimmings. 
 
 Meyer, Martin & Danda, 144 Grand Street, linens. 
 
 Clough, Pike & Co., 55-57 White Street, New York City, importers. 
 
 Stewart Silk Co., 453 Broome Street, silks. 
 
 Redfield Bros., 311 West Forty-third Street, New York City, printers. 
 
 T. H. La Fetra, 82 Greene Street, New York City, silks. 
 
 Stern & Pohly, 67 Greene Street, New York City, silks. 
 
 Spingarn Bros., 636 Broadway, New York City, millinery. 
 
 Columbia Ribbon Co., Paterson, N. J. ; New York office, 11 Washington Place, 
 ribbons. 
 
 Streep, Miller & Kissell,, 99-101 Fifth Avenue, New York City, laces. 
 
 Wells McMaster, 42 East Twenty-second Street, New York City. 
 
 James Smith & Son (Inc.), 40-42 Franklin Avenue, Brooklyn, N. Y., leather 
 goods. 
 
 R. & H. Simon, "Union Hill, N. J., silks and ribbons. 
 
 Rogers Lunt & Bowlan Co., Greenfield, Mass. 
 
 The M. H. Pulaski Co., 488 Broadway, New York City, embroideries. 
 
 Alfred Peats Co., 41 West Fourteenth Street, New York City, wall paper. 
 
 Norfolk Hosiery & Underwear Mills Co., 366 Broadway, New York City, manu- 
 facturers. 
 
 National Blank Book Co., Holyoke, Mass. 
 
 L. Meyer & Bro., 27 Howard Street, New York City, pearls and jewelry. 
 
 Max Mayer & Sons, 569 Broadway, New York City, knit goods. 
 
 Gudebrod Bros. Co., 753 Broadway, New York City, silks. 
 
 George F. Storm & Co., 409 Lafayette Street, cigars. 
 
 L. Foreman Fechtman & Co., 48 East Twenty-first Street, New York City, 
 upholstery goods. 
 
 Walter W. De Bevoise, 163 Carlton Avenue, Brooklyn, N. Y., confectionery. 
 
 The B-reyer Hat Co., 19 Waverly Place, New York City, hats. 
 
 Mark M. Dintenfass, 12 East Fifteenth Street, New York City. 
 
 Chalmers Knitting Co., Amsterdam, N. Y., knit goods. 
 
 A. P. Alvord, 12 West Forty-fourth Street, New York City. 
 
 The Allen-Lane Co., 229 Fourth Avenue, New York City, commission mer- 
 chants. 
 
 Davis & Lawrence Co., 10 Christopher Street, New York City, drugs. 
 
PARCEL POST. 555 
 
 turew & Sheld0D (Corp '>' 62 Greene Street, New York City, silk mannfae- 
 
 Trow Directory Printing & Bookbinding Co., 201-13 East Twelfth Street, New 
 
 York City, publishers. 
 
 George W. Wheelwright Paper Co., 17 West Thirtieth Street, New York Citv 
 
 paper manufacturers. 
 
 B. F. Allen Co., 365 Canal Street, New York City, drugs 
 
 S. E. Horton Machine Co., Windsor Locks, Conn. 
 
 Allcock Manufacturing Co., 274 Canal Street, New York City 
 
 M. Melachrino & Co., 214 West Forty-seventh Street, New York Citv Egyptian 
 
 cigarette. ' &J l 
 
 The Brandreth Co., 274 Canal Street, New York City, medicine 
 W. B. Quaintance, 145 Fifth Avenue, New York City, lace curtains 
 U. J. Ulery Co., 25 Warren Street, New York City, cutlery 
 Julius Sternfeld, 114 East Twenty-third Street, New York City, linens 
 Mathey Bros., Mathez & Co., 15 Maiden Lane, New York City, watches. 
 
 (The following accountant's report of the American League of 
 Associations was later filed with the committee by Mr. Moon:) 
 
 ACCUNTANT'S REPORT OF THE AMERICAN LEAGUE OF ASSOCIATIONS JANTJAEY 
 
 1, 1910, to December 5, 1911. 
 
 The Reliance Audit Association, 
 
 Chicago, III., December 5, 1911. 
 Mr. E. B. Moon, 
 
 Executive Secretary American League of Associations, 
 
 Chicago, III. 
 Dear Sir: At your request we have carefully audited the books of account 
 of the American League of Associations for the period July 6, 1911, to Decem- 
 ber 5, 1911, ended, and find them correct. 
 
 We have also consolidated the resultant figures thereof with those of the 
 period of previous audit set forth in the report of the Chicago Calculating Co., 
 dated July 8, 1911 — from the inception of your league, January 1, 1910, up to 
 July 6, 1911 — and have made the following-mentioned schedules, hereto an- 
 nexed and made a part hereof, representing the total business of your league 
 in such consolidated form from January 1, 1910, to December 5, 1911, ended, 
 to wit: 
 
 Schedule A. Abstract statement of cash receipts and disbursements. 
 Schedule B. Verification of bank balance. 
 Schedule C. List of subscribing members. 
 Respectfully submitted. 
 
 The Reliance Audit Association, 
 By A. F. Rattray Grieg, C. P. A., 
 
 Accountant in Charge. 
 
 Schedule A. — Abstract statement of cash receipts and disbursements for 
 period Jan. 1, 1910, to Dec. 5, 1911. 
 
 Receipts : 
 
 Subscriptions as per schedule C hereto annexed $30, 075. 00 
 
 Miscellaneous item 105. 55 
 
 30, ISO. 55 
 
 Disbursements : 
 
 Organization and campaign expenses — 
 G. H. Maxwell- 
 Salary •_ $3,250.00 
 
 Expenses 647. 45 
 
 3, 897. 45 
 
 R. A. Haste- 
 Salary 630. 00 
 
 Expenses 45. 05 
 
 675. 05 
 
 Organization expense 1, 995. 87 
 
 Washington headquarters expense 1, 5S0. 49 
 
556 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Disbursements — Continued. 
 
 Printing, etc $6, 286. 99 
 
 Compiling, expressing, telegrams, etc 942.50 
 
 Postage 4, 735. 08 
 
 General expense 8, 046. 42 
 
 28, 159. 85 
 Balance of cash in bank Dec. 5, 1911 2,020.70 
 
 30, 180. 55 
 Schedule B. — Verification of bamlc balance, National City Dante, Dec. 5, 1911. 
 
 Balance, league record $2,020.70 
 
 Balance, bank record 2,053.88 
 
 Bank 
 record. 
 
 Period July 7, 1911, to Dec. 5, 1911. 
 
 Balance July 7, 1911. 
 Receipts of period. . . 
 Deposits ol period. . . 
 
 Disbursements of period. 
 Checks of period 
 
 Outstanding checks, Dec. 5, 1911. . 
 Outstanding receipts, Dec. 5, 1911. 
 
 36,374.41 
 2,482.65 
 
 8,857.06 
 6,836.36 
 
 2,020.70 
 83.18 
 
 2,103.88 
 
 $6,091.36 
 
 2,432.65 
 
 9,124.01 
 
 7,070.13 
 
 2,053.88 
 
 50.00 
 
 2,103.88 
 
 Outstanding checks: 
 
 No. 232 $5. 00 
 
 No. 276 50. 00 
 
 No. 286 25. 00 
 
 No. 287 3. 18 
 
 83.18 
 Outstanding receipt : 
 
 Scudders-Gale Grocery Co., of Nov. 24, 1911 50. 00 
 
 Schedule C. — Summary of subscriptions received from subscribing members 
 during period from the inception of the league, Jan. 1, 1910, to Dec. 5, 1911. 
 
 Adam, Meldrum & Anderson Co.. Buffalo $100 
 
 Arbuthnet-Stephenson Co., Pittsburgh 100 
 
 Adams & Elting Co., Chicago 100 
 
 Allen & Co., Benj., Chicago 200 
 
 American Stove Co., St. Louis 150 
 
 Atkins & Co., B. L., Indianapolis 100 
 
 Ayres & Co., L. S., Indianapolis 50 
 
 Baltimore Bargain House, Baltimore 20 
 
 Bartel Co., Adam H., Richmond, Ind 50 
 
 Belknap Hardware & Manufacturing Co., Louisville. 200 
 
 Bittner, Hunsicker & Co., Allentown 1 50 
 
 Blodgett, Ordway & Webber, Boston 100 
 
 Boston Dry Goods Co., Boston 100 
 
 Bostwick-Braun Co., Toledo 200 
 
 Brittain Dry Goods Co., John S., St. Joseph 300 
 
 Brown-Durrell Co., New York 200 
 
 Burnham, Hanna, Hunger Dry Goods Co., Kansas City 200 
 
 Burnham, Stoepel & Co., Detroit 150 
 
 Butler Bros., Chicago 700 
 
 Byrne & Hammer Dry Goods Co., Omaha 300 
 
PARCEL POST. 557 
 
 Bartreall Shoe Co., St. Joseph $ 2 00 
 
 Benedict-Warren Hardware Co., Memphis 100 
 
 Biddle Purchasing Co., New York * on 
 
 Blackwell-Weilandy Book & Stationery Store, St. Louis 25 
 
 Bunte Bros., Chicago 20 
 
 Beacon Falls Rubber Shoe Co., Chicago__~ ~ Z_Z Z "" 20 
 
 Burley & Tyrrell Co., Chicago ~_ __ Zq 
 
 Baumgarter & Co., Toledo _ ~~ ' '_ 20 
 
 Baldwin & Co., A., New Orleans ~"ZZ 100 
 
 Becker & Co., John, Belen, N. Mex "" 20 
 
 Callender, McAuslam & Troup Co., Providence 200 
 
 Carter Dry Goods Co., Louisville _ " " 200 
 
 Claflin Co., H. B., New York ~ 200 
 
 Clawson & Wilson Co., Buffalo 200 
 
 Cooper, Coate & Casey Dry Goods Co., Los Angeles___I 200 
 
 Covington Co., The, Jacksonville 50 
 
 C. L. Carpenning, Battle Creek ~_~ 20 
 
 Crowley Bros., Detroit '_ joo 
 
 Carleton Dry Goods Co., St. Louis '_ 200 
 
 Carson, Pirie, Scott & Co., Chicago 600 
 
 Campbell, S. W., Chicago 10 
 
 Carpenter Paper Co., Omaha '_!'. 100 
 
 Case & Sanborn, Chicago 100 
 
 Cottrell Saddlery Co., Richmond 20 
 
 Columbus Grocery Co., Columbus, Ga 20 
 
 Dewitt-Seitz Co., Duluth 20 
 
 Delamater Hardware Co., Detroit 20 
 
 Dalziel-Moller Co., San Francisco 20 
 
 Drake Hardware Co., Burlington, Iowa 10 
 
 Dinkins-Davidson Hardware Co., Atlanta 20 
 
 De Laval Separator Co., New York 50 
 
 Dunham, Carrigan & Hayden, San Francisco 50 
 
 Bdson, Moore & Co., Detroit 200 
 
 Ely & Walker Dry Goods Co., St. Louis 100 
 
 Field, Marshall & Co., Chicago 600 
 
 Farley, Harvey & Co., Boston 100 
 
 French, F. E., Chicago 10 
 
 Ferguson, McKinney Dry Goods Co., St. Louis 200 
 
 Farwell Co., John V., Chicago 600 
 
 Fairbank Co., N. K., Chicago 100 
 
 Fischer Bros., Seattle 20 
 
 Fleischner, Mayer & Co., Portland . 100 
 
 Forbes Tea & Coffee Co., Jas. H., St. Louis 10 
 
 Frankfurth Hardware Co., Wm, Milwaukee 50 
 
 Foster, Stevens & Co., Grand Rapids 50 
 
 Frank Co., A. B., San Antonio 20 
 
 Friedman-Shelby Shoe Co., St. Louis 50 
 
 Gowan-Peyton-Twohy Co., Duluth 20 
 
 Guthmann, Carpenter & Telling, Chicago 25 
 
 Goll & Frank Co., Milwaukee 200 
 
 Goddall, Brown & Co., Birmingham 20 
 
 Goodbar & Co., Memphis 20 
 
 Geller, Ward & Hasner Hardware Co., St. Louis 10 
 
 Gowan-Peyton-Congdon Co., Duluth 20 
 
 Gauss-Langenberg Hat Co., St. Louis 25 
 
 Greenwood Grocery Co., Greenwood, Miss 20 
 
 Grand Rapids Dry Goods Co., Grand Rapids 20 
 
 Hibbard. Spencer, Bartlett & Co., Chicago 000 
 
 Haines & Son, Jas. B., Pittsburgh 150 
 
 Havens & Geddes Co., Indianapolis 200 
 
 Hibben, Hollweg & Co., Indianapolis 200 
 
 Holbrook, Merrill & Stetson, San Francisco -00 
 
 Hargadine-McKittrick Dry Goods Co., St. Louis 200 
 
 Hamilton-Brown Shoe Co., St. Louis 200 
 
 Herold-Bertsch Shoe Co., Grand Rapids 50 
 
 Iowa Retail Hardware Association, Mason City, Iowa 30 
 
 Johnson- Woodbury Hat Co., St. Joseph 50 
 
558 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Jones, Witter & Co., Columbus $1.50 
 
 Jordan, W. B. & W. G., Minneapolis 20 
 
 Janney, Semple, Hill & Co., Minneapolis 100 
 
 Kirkendall & Co., F. P., Omaha 300 
 
 Kahn Tailoring Co., Indianapolis 100 
 
 Kohn, Weil & Co., New Orleans 25 
 
 Kroeger-Amos-James Grocery Co., St. Louis 25 
 
 Keidel & Co., Henry, Baltimore 20 
 
 Kelley, How, Thomson Co., Duluth 20 
 
 Knapp & Spencer Co., Sioux City, Iowa 25 
 
 Drug Co., Kiefer, A., Indianapolis 25 
 
 Los Angeles Saddlery & Finding Co., Los Angeles 200 
 
 Lee-Glass-Andreesen Hardware Co., Omaha 150 
 
 Landauer & Co., Milwaukee 100 
 
 Long Bros. Grocery Co., Kansas City 20 
 
 La Crosse Cracker & Candy Factory, La Crosse 50 
 
 Longley, Low & Alexander, Chicago 20 
 
 Lemon & Wheeler Co., Grand Bapids 20 
 
 Lampton, Crane & Barney Co., Louisville 20 
 
 Maxwell, McClure & Fitts Dry Goods Co., Kansas City 100 
 
 Maxwells, Talisman, Chicago 20 
 
 Majestic Manufacturing Co., St. Louis 150 
 
 McCord-Brady Co., Omaha 300 
 
 Mississippi Traveler's Association, Jackson 10 
 
 Mayer Boot & Shoe Co., F., Milwaukee 200 
 
 Maxwell & Co., S. A., Chicago 100 
 
 Marshall-Wells Hardware Co., Duluth 150 
 
 Morey Mercantile Co., U. S., Denver 40 
 
 Minneapolis Jobbers, Minneapolis 2,300 
 
 Mackie Grocery Co., Albert, New Orleans 100 
 
 Michigan Tradesman (E. A. Stow), Grand Rapids 20 
 
 Minneapolis Iron Store Co., Minneapolis 50 
 
 Missoula Mercantile Co., Missoula, Mont 20 
 
 Miller Co., T. F., Jerome, Ariz 50 
 
 McClintock-Trunkey Co., Spokane 20 
 
 Merrell Drug Co., J. S., St. Louis 50 
 
 Mound City Paint & Color Co., St. Louis 75 
 
 Newell & Co., Geo. R., Minneapolis 50 
 
 Norvell-Shapleigh Hardware Co., St. Louis 260 
 
 Noyes-Norman Shoe Co., St. Joseph 200 
 
 National Shoe Wholesale Association, Chicago 110 
 
 National Candy Co., St. Louis 100 
 
 Orr Shoe Co., J. K., Atlanta 20 
 
 Palmer & Co., Percival B., Chicago 200 
 
 Patrick & Co., F. A., Duluth 150 
 
 Peters Shoe Co., St. Louis 50 
 
 Pittsburgh Dry Goods Co., Pittsburgh 200 
 
 Paxton & Gallagher Co., Omaha 150 
 
 Peaslee-Gaulbert Co., Louisville 10 
 
 Phillips Bros. & Co., Baltimore 20 
 
 Pacific Hardware & Steel Co., San Francisco 20 
 
 Parker, Holmes & Co., Boston 20 
 
 Pitkin & Brooks, Chicago 50 
 
 Beid, Murdock & Co., Chicago 200 
 
 Rice-Stix Dry Goods Co.. St. Loui,= 100 
 
 Richardson Dry Goods Co., St. Joseph 200 
 
 Robinson, Norton & Co., J. M., Louisville 200 
 
 Root & McBride Co., Cleveland 125 
 
 Ridenour-Baker Grocery Co., Kansas City 300 
 
 Richards & Conovor, Kansas City _ 100 
 
 Root & McBride Co., Chicago 100 
 
 Ronndy, Peckham & Dexter Co., Milwaukee 20 
 
 Rosenthal-Sloan Millinery Co., St. Louis 10 
 
 Richardson Silk Co., Chicago . 50 
 
 Richardson & Co., O. W., Chicago ~ _ 50 
 
 Roberts, Johnson & Rand Shoe Co., St. Louis I_„I_ 100 
 
 Richmond Dry Goods Co., Richmond __. 50 
 
PAKCEL POST. 55! 
 
 Selz, Schwab & Co., Chicago $10 
 
 Sheldon Dry Goods Co., Columbus 10( 
 
 Shillito Co., John, Cincinnati 2CM 
 
 Silvey & Co., John, Atlanta 1(K 
 
 Smith & Co., M. E., Omaha 30< 
 
 Smith-McCord-Townsend Dry Goods Co., Kansas City 301 
 
 Smith-Wallace Shoe Co., Chicago 1(k 
 
 Strawbridge & Clothier, Philadelphia 201 
 
 Smith & Sons. R. P., Chicago 10< 
 
 Simmons Hardware Co., St. Louis 32! 
 
 Stewart Co., Daniel, Indianapolis 21 
 
 Sonneborn & Co., Hy., Baltimore 2< 
 
 Scudders-Gale Grocery Co., St. Louis 5i 
 
 Stein & Ellbogen, Chicago 51 
 
 Stix & Co., Louis, Cincinnati 10< 
 
 St. Louis Jobbers, St. Louis 4,10 
 
 Smith Dry Goods Co., El Paso, 111 1 
 
 St. Paul Jobbers, St. Paul 2,00 
 
 Steele-Wedeles Co., Chicago & 
 
 Shanks, Phillips & Co., Memphis 2 
 
 Strevell-Peterson Hardware Co., Salt Lake City 2' 
 
 Tolerton, Warfleld & Co., Sioux City 2 
 
 Tootle Campbell Dry Goods Co., St. Joseph 37 
 
 Townley Metal & Hardware Co., Kansas City 10 
 
 Valley City Milling Co., Grand Rapids 2 
 
 Volker & Co., Wm., Kansas City 20 
 
 Vegen Bros. (Inc.), Billings, Mont 2 
 
 Walker-Stetson Co., Boston 15 1 
 
 Wells Co., M. D., Chicago 10 
 
 Witmer Bros. Co., Cedar Rapids 1' 
 
 Western Dry Goods Co., Seattle 5' 
 
 Wheeler & Motter Mercantile Co,, St. Joseph SO 1 
 
 Western & National Grocery Co., Chicago 30' 
 
 Wyeth Hardware & Manufacturing Co., St. Joseph 20 
 
 Wright & Wilhelmy Co., Omaha 45 
 
 Warfield-Pratt-Howell Co., Des Moines 5 
 
 Webb-Freyschlag Mercantile Co., Kansas City 5' 
 
 Ward Bros. Drug Co., Indianapolis 2 
 
 Young, Smyth, Field & Co., Philadelphia 20 
 
 Total 30, 07 
 
 Senator Bristow. Whom do they represent? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I could not tell you whom they represent. There are : 
 number of men in New York City that belong to them, and I do no 
 know where they get all of their support. 
 
 The Chairman. The only advocates that you have specified an 
 this progress league and this farm journal. 
 
 Mr. Moon. That is all I have in mind — that is what I mean b] 
 advocates. I did not mean the Senate committee; neither am - 
 referring to the Postmaster General or to the President. I mean ad 
 vocates outside of Congress, and have no reference to the administra 
 tion on that question. I want to quote from a typical article takei 
 from the Breeder's Gazette, published in Chicago. 
 
 The Chairman. What circulation has that paper? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I would have to guess at it, but I think they have i 
 circulation of about forty or fifty thousand— 60,000, I think 
 probably. 
 
 The wide margin between the producer and the consumer is bound to b 
 narrowed. The great system of modern merchandising has been built up a 
 too great an expense to the chief parties in interest. Lesser tax in transi 
 from field to kitchen and from manufactory to farm is demanded. This demam 
 
560 PARCEL POST. 
 
 is so keen that it will cut its way through the tangle of the established order 
 of business methods. Clearly the parcel post is a step toward relief, and the 
 President's flat-footed declaration in its favor is heartily received. 
 
 Senator Bras-row. Now, on general principles do you not think 
 that anything that would eliminate the cost of transportation from 
 the producer to the consumer is a good thing for society? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Perhaps, on a general proposition. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you not think that it would be ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Now, that depends ; I am not going to say that it would 
 be, because it depends upon the results it brings about as to whether 
 it would be the best thing or not. 
 
 The Chairman. If you can buy your goods cheaper and if you can 
 have them delivered cheaper, you would not want a demonstration 
 from somebody else before you accepted those privileges, would you ? 
 You would take them at once ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. No, sir ; but if it is going to cheapen goods to the con- 
 sumer and destroy the average communities and social life in these 
 little trade centers, I doubt very much if it is a good thing. I think 
 it is an injury instead of a benefit. 
 
 The Chairman. But you are predicating all your observations 
 upon the assumption that the country merchant is going to be de- 
 stroyed ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. If you were satisfied that he would not be, but, 
 on the contrary, would be benefited, would you not be strongly in 
 favor of the proposition? 
 
 Mr. Moon. No, sir. As I stated a while ago, I think it is wrong 
 as a governmental proposition. I do not think it is a proper gov- 
 ernmental function. 
 
 The Chairman. You think it means paternalism and dry rot? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, will you kindly go on with your statement? 
 
 Mr. Moon. And again the problem of the retail merchant of to- 
 day is essentially a problem of getting people into his store. To 
 that end his ability and energy are directed. 
 
 When you make this problem more difficult or insurmountable 
 by a parcel post you will drive him out of business, it will have the 
 same effect on his business as a bad location in a town or city, or in 
 any overdone town. He will never be able to withstand its stealthy 
 undermining effects. 
 
 The Chairman. Your opinion is that the hypnotic influence that 
 the country storekeeper wields over his customer is the cause of the 
 business ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I did not say that it was hypnotic, but I said that his 
 ability to get his people into his store determined the amount of busi- 
 ness that he does. That is the milk of the coconut, when it comes 
 to retailing. That is the real problem of retailing. 
 
 The Chairman. Do they not order any of their things by tele- 
 phone ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. We have a telephone in our store covering 35 or 40 
 miles of territory and we get a telephone order once a month. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What kind of a store dp you own ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. A general store, carrying a full line of goods. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you sell groceries? 
 
PARCEL POST. 56 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bkistow. And they do not get their groceries over th 
 telephone ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. No, sir; not in the country. They come in with ; 
 basket of eggs and butter and they buy their groceries. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I had understood that the telephone was a ver 
 great benefit to the small merchant, in that he did not have to f od 
 away much time in showing goods. 
 
 Mr. Moon.' I think any retail merchant will tell you that the tele 
 phone end of his business in a town is a very small factor in hi 
 business. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you rural routes emanating out of you 
 town ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir; three. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you get only one telephone order a month ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I would not be specific and say one, but I think v 
 averages about one a month. I am speaking from memory. 
 
 Senator Brtan. How many patrons of the telephone company a^ 
 there ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I could not answer your question, because I really d< 
 not know. I am not in touch with my store every day. 
 
 Senator Bryan. But the farmers generally use the telephone 
 They have it in their houses? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir ; quite generally, 9 miles east and 9 miles soutl 
 of us. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If you had rural delivery running out from you: 
 town — that is, parcel delivery — do you not think you could get a gooc 
 many more telephone orders ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. No. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you not get more out of your town cus 
 tomers? 
 
 Mr. Moon. We do not deliver in a town of 300. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If you do not deliver, then you do not have anj 
 way of comparing with modern business. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Perhaps I have, Senator; but you know that stores ii 
 towns of 300 
 
 Senator Bristow. But in towns where there is a delivery systen 
 the people can order the bulk of their, goods by telephone. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. This is a delivery proposition, and you are mak 
 ing a comparison here where there is no delivery whatever. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Are there any large towns near the small towr 
 of 300? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Ten miles is the nearest. 
 
 The Chairman. How large are those towns ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. About 60,000. 
 
 The retail merchant works long hours, from early morning unti' 
 late at night, 6 days in the week and 52 weeks in the year. 
 
 He lives a plain, simple life. He and his family are frugal anc 
 industrious. 
 
 His capital invested is about the same as that of the average farmer 
 and yet he fares very poorly with regard to his investment anc 
 labor as compared with that of the farmer. 
 
562 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 An inquiry in a number of towns in the State of Iowa reveals the 
 fact that there are 18 retired farmers to 1 retired merchant. 
 
 In the light of such facts, the ghost of big profits most certainly 
 vanishes. 
 
 And why will a parcel post drive him out of business ? Because the 
 retail mail-order houses can afford larger advertising appropriations. 
 They can afford to maintain a force of expert writers. Through the 
 farm journals they will reach all of his customers. A delivery sys- 
 tem is the one thing they need to make their plan of selling complete, 
 and a parcel post will supply that omission. _ 
 
 Some advocates of parcel post have indicated a belief that the 
 retail merchant ought to be eliminated, and yet his method of selling 
 goods has withstood the tests of time and has survived the business 
 revolutions of the ages only because it is the best system of supplying 
 the wants of the people that human wisdom has so far devised. 
 
 He is a necessary factor in production and distribution. 
 
 Prof. Ely says: 
 
 It has seemed to some, even among economists of an earlier time, that the 
 farmer is more truly a producer than the manufacturer, and the manufacturer 
 than the merchant ; but careful thought discloses the fallacy of such a view. 
 All industrial classes alike produce one or more of the four sorts of utility, and 
 they do so by changing relations of things in time or space. The farmer 
 changes the position of grains of corn by dropping them into the earth. Thus 
 man's acts in changing the relations and position' of things, aided by nature's 
 materials and forces, result in more corn for human consumption. The manu- 
 facturer, in the same way, changes the position of pieces of matter, and' aided 
 by natural forces within and without the object of production, he causes matter 
 to assume a form which fits it, or better fits it, for human needs. So, too, the 
 merchant changes the places of things from where they are less useful to where 
 they are more useful, or holds them in one place until a change of external cir- 
 cumstances gives them greater time utility. He is producing utilities as truly 
 as is the farmer or the manufacturer. 
 
 The Chairman. There is no desire on the part of any member of 
 the committee to eliminate the country merchant in any way. 
 
 Mr. Moon. I understand that very well, but I understand that the 
 parcel-post question has been very closely linked up to this phase 
 of the question. It has been published in literature throughout the 
 country. It has been one of the forces which has helped to educate 
 the people for a parcel post. You can not separate the questions. 
 
 The Chairman. To my mind there is a distinct separation* 
 
 Mr. Moon. There is, except in the mind of the public. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not know what literature you refer to. 
 
 Mr. Moon. I refer to all the literature that is educating the people 
 on the subject of parcel post. I will not burden you by quoting that 
 further, except to show that the merchant is a producer and has an 
 economic standing as a producer. I also quote from Adam Smith 
 to show the distribution of the wholesaler. I have heard a state- 
 ment, Senator, and I do not want to burden you with it, except that 
 it is a matter of importance in answering to this question that the 
 retail merchant has been charged with being responsible for the high 
 cost of living, and I have submitted a schedule of the consumption 
 of the necessary things of life, 1900-1909, showing an increased con- 
 sumption of those goods, to show that the increased consumption of 
 goods has been the element, and not the retail merchant. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, there has not been a corresponding in- 
 crease in production commensurate with the demand. 
 
PAECEL POST. 563 
 
 Mr. Moon. The increased cost of production has been an element 
 and not the profit to the retailer, and not the method of distribu- 
 tion. I have also included a table showing the increased volume of 
 farm products to show that they have borne the same relation in 
 their increased value. to that of the manufacturer and other lines. 
 I have quoted here from a bulletin issued by the University of Wis- 
 consin on this question of advertising. 
 
 Adam Smith, in his Wealth of Nation, says : 
 
 The capital of the retailer replaces, together with its profits, that of the 
 merchant of whom he purchases goods, and thereby enables him to continue 
 his business. The retailer himself is the only productive laborer whom it im- 
 mediately employs. In his profits consists the whole value which its employ- 
 ment adds to the annual produce of the land and labor of society. 
 
 Mr. Chairman, it has been charged that the profits of the retailer 
 have been exorbitant, and yet the retail merchants of the country are 
 selling their goods to-day on a closer margin of profit than ever be- 
 fore. These charges are as old as the hills, and were made in England 
 against the retail merchants two centuries ago. 
 
 Adam Smith answered those charges then in these words : 
 
 Besides possessing a little capital, the retail merchant must be able to read, 
 write, and account, and must be a tolerable judge, too, of perhaps 50 or 60- 
 different sorts of goods, their prices, qualities, and the markets where they are 
 to be had cheapest. He must have the knowledge, in short, that is necessary 
 for a great merchant, which nothing hinders him from becoming but the want 
 of sufficient capital. Thirty or forty pounds a year can not be considered as too 
 great a recompense for the labor of a person so accomplished. Deduct this 
 from the seemingly great profit of his capital and little more will remain per- 
 haps than the ordinary profits of stock. The greater part of the apparent profit 
 is in this case, too, real wages. 
 
 The cost of living has steadily advanced for several years, but we 
 deny that either the retail merchant or the method of distribution is 
 to blame for it. 
 
 Several elements enter into the increased cost of goods, and from 
 some of the figures which I shall submit it is difficult to tell whether 
 it is the high cost of living or the cost of high living that is the 
 factor. 
 
 The per capita consumption of a number of necessaries is shown as 
 follows : 
 
 
 1900 
 
 1909 
 
 
 
 22.57 
 4.74 
 
 24.44 
 
 65.20 
 9.81 
 1.09 
 1.27 
 
 16.01 
 
 .40 
 
 5.72 
 
 29.53 
 
 Wheat . 
 
 
 6.22 
 
 
 do... 
 
 29.71 
 
 
 
 82.24 
 
 Coffee 
 
 do 
 
 11.74 
 
 Tea 
 
 do.... 
 
 1.29 
 
 
 
 1.37 
 
 
 
 19.79 
 
 
 do.... 
 
 .70 
 
 
 
 6.67 
 
 
 
 Ricardo, the eminent French political economist, says: 
 
 It is the cost of production which must ultimately regulate the price of com- 
 modities, and uot, as has been ofteu said, the proportion between the supply 
 and demand; the proportion between supply and demand may, indeed, for a 
 time affect the market value of a commodity, until it is supplied in greater or 
 less abundance, according as the demand may have increased or diminished, 
 but this effect will be only of temporary duration. 
 
564 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Diminish the cost of production of hats and their price will ultimately fall 
 to their new natural price, although the demand should be doubled, trebled, or 
 quadrupled. Diminish the cost of subsistence of men by diminishing the 
 natural price of the food and clothing by which life is sustained, and wages 
 will ultimately fall, notwithstanding that the demand for laborers may very 
 greatly increase. 
 
 A glimpse at the increased cost of production may be seen from the 
 following figures on manufactures of the United States: 
 
 Wages 
 
 General expenses 
 Cost of materials. 
 
 $2,009,735,799 
 
 905,600,225 
 
 6,577,614,074 
 
 1905 
 
 $2,611,540,532 
 1,455,019,473 
 8,503,949,756 
 
 We believe that these two factors — the high living and the in- 
 creased cost of production — have affected the average of all com- 
 modities, and that the increased value of land, increased wages for 
 farm labor, and the increased cost of necessaries are reflected in these 
 figures which I shall submit, showing the increased value of agri- 
 cultural products: 
 
 Average farm value of crops. 
 
 1909 
 
 Wheat 
 
 Oats 
 
 Corn 
 
 Eye 
 
 Barley 
 
 Buckwheat . 
 
 Potatoes 
 
 Hay, per ton 
 
 $0,824 
 
 .739 
 .552 
 
 .549 
 10.62 
 
 The value of live stock on f.irms : 1900, $3,078,050,041 ; 1019, $5,318,486,000. 
 
 There is also another phase of this question, another element^ which 
 enters into the increased cost of living which is very forcibly stated in 
 a bulletin of the University of Wisconsin, serial No. 430, from which 
 I shall quote as follows : 
 
 It is estimated that over $10,000,000,000 are spent annually in the United 
 States for household maintenance for the items of food, shelter, and clothing. 
 Women spend at least 90 per cent of this amount. In any other phase of life 
 the ones intrusted with such expenditure would necessarily have to pass through 
 a training which would fit them to spend wisely, but the great mass of women 
 have no training in this most important field. They are subject to the skill of 
 the ndvertiser without any background to determine whether the thing adver- 
 tised is worth what is claimed for it or will be of any value in the household. 
 The woman in the majority of cases is practically without adequate knowledge, 
 of money value, cost of production, the reasons for the selection of material, 
 such as clothing, the essentials of a sanitary home, and above all, knows nothing 
 or practically nothing of the nutritive value of food or its relative cost. She 
 spends as her mother spent before her, or as her neighbor spends. Courses in 
 home economics offer training to women in this very important subject of 
 knowledge of materials and requirements which will enable them to conduct 
 their homes not only on a scientific basis from the standpoint of health, but will 
 enable them to spend their incomes wisely for the essentials of life. 
 
 The State is taxed to provide instruction in the principles governing the pro- 
 duction of raw material and the manufacture of raw material Into the finished 
 
PARCEL POST. 565 
 
 product. Women should be trained to use this material so that there will be 
 the least waste of time or money and the best results obtained. If they do not 
 understand the principles of food selection, shelter, and clothing, then it will 
 materially lessen the efficiency of the members of the household. Man works at 
 about 50 per cent of his efficiency. What would be the results if the home 
 environment were on a scientific basis can only be guessed, but there is suffi- 
 cient evidence to show that the saving to the State would be enormous, providing 
 the women were trained in their chief business. 
 
 In view of these facts we submit that it is the increased cost of pro- 
 duction on farm and in factory, and not the method of distribution, 
 that is the most important factor in the increased cost of living. 
 
 The retail merchant is an essential — a necessary factor in produc- 
 tion and distribution — and yet he could not conduct his business at a 
 profit without the wholesaler. 
 
 Success in retailing depends upon the ability of the merchant to 
 keep the dollars working all the time, to give the dollar its highest 
 working power, in giving every dollar in the capital stock its highest 
 possible efficiency. 
 
 Senator Beistow. One statement that you made was that the in- 
 creased high cost of living was due to the increased cost of produc- 
 tion on the farm, I believe. 
 
 Mr. Moon. I said on farms and in factories. I think they quoted 
 a table showing the increased cost of farming and the increased cost 
 of factory products to show that they had kept true relation to each 
 other. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The cost of farming products where you take 
 that cost. 
 
 Mr. Moon. I mean the selling price, because the element of labor 
 and the things that produce them enters into it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What products have increased in price very 
 much recently ; that is, in the price the farmer receives ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. In 1900 wheat was worth 61.9 cents a bushel, and in 
 1909, 82.4. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Where? 
 
 Mr. Moon. In Chicago. That is quoted from the Chicago Daily 
 News. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Twenty cents a bushel. How much flour does a 
 bushel of wheat make ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I am a little bit rusty on that; but I think about 33 
 pounds. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How many loaves of bread will 33 pounds of 
 flour make ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I do not know. I would not answer the question be- 
 cause I do not know. I think it is a fair proposition that if wheat 
 sells for 82 cents, flour and bread are worth more than if it sells for 
 60 cents. 
 
 Senator. Bristow. I was getting at the increased cost of living. If 
 33 pounds of flour cost 20 cents more, that is approximately two- 
 thirds of a cent a pound. I think you will find that 33 pounds will 
 make about 100 loaves of bread. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Thirty- two to the bushel, do you figure? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. It would be about 100 loaves of bread. 
 That would be an increase of about one-fifth of a cent a loaf. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes ; but that is not all the expense that goes into that. 
 
566 PAECBL POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But that is what the farmer gets. It was sub- 
 mitted that the increased cost of living was due to the increased cost 
 of farming. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Then oats, 25 cents to 40 cents. 
 
 Senator Bkistow. I do not know how much oatmeal goes into that. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Then there is corn, rye, barley, buckwheat, potatoes, 
 and hay. They are the only figures I have given. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you got cotton in there ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. No. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Make the other comparisons. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Corn, 35.7 and 59.6. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Oats were increased 15 cents a bushel. Do you 
 have any idea how many dishes of oatmeal that would make? 
 
 Mr. Moon. No; I have no idea. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It would make a great many, would it not? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It would not materially increase the cost of the 
 farmer's breakfast, this increase? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Not much. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, let's have something else. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Corn, 35.7 and 59.6, and potatoes — 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is in Chicago? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes ; I think you will find, Senator, that that table is 
 reliable. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Of course, you would really have to take a series 
 of years; one year there might be a very great difference. Some 
 years wheat has been as high as a dollar and then it goes down 
 again. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes; to reach positive deductions; but these figures 
 are all taken from the same year, as near as possible. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Let's go ahead and see what the rest are. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Potatoes, 43.1 to 54.9. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is an article of common diet. The others 
 are not. That is an increase of 11 cents a bushel. How long would 
 a bushel of potatoes do the average family? 
 
 Mr. Moon. That is a difficult question. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They would last them probably two weeks ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. My family about two months. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It will last the average family about two or 
 three weeks, so that would make an average of, say, 3 cents a week 
 on that article. Let's go ahead and see how much the farmer is 
 getting out of this high cost of living? 
 
 Mr. Moon. You are making the deduction from the wrong stand- 
 point. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But you are approximating the cost of living 
 to the high price of the farm products on the farm. 
 
 Mr. Moon. But you analyze this to show that the loaf of bread 
 or the dish of oatmeal amounts to a very small affair, and yet the 
 percentage of increase of farm products amounts to about 33 per 
 cent all the way. 
 
 Senator Bristow. "We are getting down to details. Of course that 
 was what I was to figure out. 
 
PARCEL POST. 567 
 
 Mr. Moon. But the percentage of increase remains about the same. 
 
 Senator Bkistow. A statement was made that the high cost of liv- 
 ing, was due to the high cost that the farmer is getting for his 
 produce. 
 
 Mr. Moon. It is about 33| per cent here. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Let's take something else then. 
 
 Mr. Moon. You will find the figures here in the tables to justify 
 my statements. 
 
 Senator Beistow. What else besides potatoes have you ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Hay ; that is the last item ; $8.89 to $10.62 per ton, an 
 increase of about $2 a ton. 
 
 When a merchant buys 12 dozen of an item, a usual minimum fac- 
 tory quantity, he has invested in the 12 dozen several round, hard 
 dollars. He has lost the use of several of these dollars, which might 
 be put into other goods. 
 
 In other words, several of these dollars are resting on the shelf 
 and bringing him nothing. They swell investment, but they do not 
 swell sales. 
 
 On the other hand, he could invest the same number of dollars in 
 perhaps six different items, five of which sell on a par with the one 
 which he has purchased. He has, then, six items yielding him a net 
 profit, rather than one; and when he sells the 12 dozen he has turned 
 his stock six times instead of once. 
 
 This is why the wholesaler plays an essential and important part 
 in the field i >f distribution. It is the wholesaler's place to carry the 
 surplus stock, to take the risk, to make possible for the retailer the 
 highest number of turns for his stock. It is the wholesaler's business 
 to gather the, goods from the four quarters of the globe, to have them 
 in stock ready for shipment when the retailer wants them. It is the 
 retailer's business to buy his goods in small quantities and often, and 
 to look to the wholesaler's stocked warehouses for his frequent needs, 
 and he must do so if he is enabled to sell his goods to his customers 
 at the right price, for his profit depends not on a single sale but on the 
 frequent turning of stock, and it is in this way and in this way 
 alone that he will be enabled to make sufficient net profit to stay in 
 business. 
 
 The Chaibman. In that connection, why would not increased trans- 
 portation be an advantage to the country merchant? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Because the proposed transportation proposition will 
 not serve the retail merchants' needs. 
 
 The Chaieman. Whom does it serve ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. It will serve the consumer only; only occasionally will 
 it serve the retail merchant. He does not buy his goods in 11-pound 
 packages. 
 
 The Chateman. You imagine that because of an 11-pound parcel 
 post that they would utilize the 11-pound package? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Do I imagine that the retail merchant would utilize 
 the 11-pound package if he had the chance — is that what you mean ? 
 
 The Chaieman. Everything would not be shipped in 11-pound 
 packages just because the 11-pound maximum limit existed. 
 
 Mr. Moon. He would not split a shipment of 100 pounds up in 
 nine packages to ship, either ; that would be too expensive. He would 
 
 21845— vol 2—12 20 
 
568 parcel posr. 
 
 ship by freight an order of 2, 3 — up to 100-pound lots, if there is 
 any advantage in transportation. 
 
 The Chairman. He is going to seek the cheapest transportation — 
 all business is — so if your parcel post is not competitive with the 
 freight rate it will not work any injury from your point of view, 
 although it would not work any benefit. 
 
 Mr. Moon. I can not see the force of that deduction. Parcel post 
 up to 11 pounds will not help the retail merchant any in his trans- 
 portation problem. That is my view. 
 
 The Chairman. Supposing the consumer can utilize the freight 
 rate and get his goods for half what he could through a parcel post. 
 He would use the freight means of transportation? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Why, certainly he would. That is a business propo- 
 sition. 
 
 The Chairman. If he has to pay very much more proportion- 
 ately to ship 1 pound than he would have to pay for that pound 
 assembled with 99 more pounds as a 100-pound shipment, he will 
 ordinarily avail himself of the opportunity of assembly, will he 
 not, provided he has the opportunity? 
 
 Mr. Moon. If it is profitable and he needs the goods. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that not the main reason of the success of the 
 departmental stores and mail-order houses — their ability to assemble 
 and take advantage of the lowest possible freight rates? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I would not say that that was true of the departmental 
 stores and I would not say it was true of the mail-order houses, al- 
 though it is a factor. It is not so much a factor in the department 
 stores, because an assembling of orders there does not count for 
 anything. It is simply a question of system. If a business is or- 
 ganized to take care of single small orders, they will take care of 
 them, whether the order is large or small. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that organization now exists, does it not? 
 
 Mr. Moon. In a retail mail-order house they could sell more goods 
 economically under the split-order system. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly explain the split-order system? 
 
 Mr. Moon. A customer. in a small town sends in an order — she is 
 soliciting — for three dozen cans of corn and three halters and two 
 shirt waists and a dozen bars of soap. The order is made out; this 
 in Department A and this in Department B, and so forth, and each 
 order is put on a separate sheet. The order filler fills it just as if 
 it were a single order. He fills the next item and the next, and it is 
 all in the same department. He fills it just as economically as if it 
 were in one department. That is why the retail mail-order houses 
 encourage 100-pound shipping, because it reduces the ratio of their 
 overhead expenses to the sales. 
 
 The Chairman. It increases their volume of business and enables 
 them to reach customers because of the lower freight rates? 
 
 Mr. Moon. There is also a selling proposition there, Senator, that 
 is, to my mind, more important. It is to sell $100 worth of goods in- 
 stead of $10 worth, and by doing so they increase the volume of sale 
 and thereby reduce the ratio of expenses. 
 
 The Chairman. The increase in the volume of business always 
 does that. ' 
 
 Mr. Moon. But I am taking that from their angle, now. That is 
 their problem and what they tried to do. 
 
PARCEL POST. 569 
 
 The Chairman. The encouragement is to the consumer because of 
 the assembling. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Because of the assembling. They ship in one package 
 and get the cheap rate on it. 
 
 The Chairman. The pound rate being the same as the 100-pound 
 rate in a majority of cases on merchandise. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes ; up to 100 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. That is one of the fundamentals of the success of 
 the mail -order houses and the departmental stores, where they ship 
 outside of the city, is it not? 
 
 Mr. Moon. They are equipped to handle those small orders just as 
 economically, perhaps, singly, as they would be to have those orders 
 split this way, yet_ when they encouraged the 100-pound shipment 
 they increased their sales tenfold, and it is a selling proposition 
 for them to do that. 
 
 The Chairman. And the inducement is to every one of their cus- 
 tomers. The customer gets the jobber freight rate through the aggre- 
 gation, so he becomes an agent as far as that operation goes for the 
 mail-order house. You do not change that situation at all by chang- 
 ing your weight limit from 4 pounds to 11 pounds, because the basis 
 of your operation is the freight rate on the 100-pound business. 
 
 Mr. Moon. The mail-order house was built up on nothing but small 
 shipments, and it was a long time before they got away from it. It 
 was not a question of packages or styles of packages at all. Their 
 business was built up in the beginning on small packages. The 
 majority of the packages that come into our town for a good many 
 years weigh 6, 7, 8, or 9 pounds. 
 
 Senator Bristow. By express or by freight? 
 
 Mr. Moon. By express. Very few of those drop shipments are 
 combined shipments. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How much of this mail-order business that is 
 done is transported by mail ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I could not answer your question, for I have not the 
 figures or the data here; but from my own standpoint — take the 
 small town — I would say that very little of it is done in the 4-pound 
 limit in our town. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The mail-order house has developed not because 
 of any mail facilities, but because of the express facilities and the 
 freight rate \ 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes ; it has on account of the rural free delivery. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How much of it is carried by mail ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Carrying proposition, not very much. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How has it developed by mail, then ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Because of the carrying of the mail out to the farmer. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Increased postal facilities have helped it. 
 Would you decrease the postal facilities, then? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Not at all. I am not saying that. I am not against 
 increasing the mail facilities for first-class mail. I am highly in 
 favor of it; but I am certainly objecting to the transportation of 
 merchandise. That is, to my mind, a clear distinction. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I think there is a distinction, too ; a marked dis- 
 tinction between the first-class and the second-class mail. You made 
 the statement that it was the increase in the facilities for first and 
 second class mail that enabled the mail-order houses to grow ; there 
 
570 PABCEL. POST. 
 
 is no proposition here to enlarge or decrease the facilities for first- 
 class and second-class mail. 
 
 Mr. Moon. I said that as a selling proposition or advertising 
 proposition. As a selling proposition that is true. I am finding no 
 fault with it, however ; but, nevertheless, it is a true fact. 
 
 Senator Bristow. He learns of the existence of this store that sells 
 direct and so writes a letter and gets a catalogue and finally buys 
 some goods ; and those goods are not sent to him by mail, but by ex- 
 press, as a rule, are they not? 
 
 Mr. Moon. They are in our town ; and I think the small packages 
 up to 11 pounds, or even up to 20 pounds, as a rule, are sent by ex- 
 press, where the distance does not increase the express rate to where 
 the freight would be cheaper. In my town we get a 10-pound pack- 
 age for 25 cents from Chicago and the goods come by express. It is 
 very seldom they are shipped by freight unless it is heavy stuff. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Wherein would a parcel post in your way affect 
 that business? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I think I have clearly shown that a delivery system 
 would keep the consumers from coming into the store; and if they 
 don't, we would not sell them goods, that is sure. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You would not have the pleasure of meeting 
 them occasionally? 
 
 Mr. Moon. And if we did not get them into the store, we could not 
 sell them goods. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose that they did not need the goods; you 
 want to get them in there and sell them, anyway. 
 
 Mr. Moon. They need goods, and advertising is the only thing 
 which suggests the goods which are already in their minds and sug- 
 gests the need of them. The advertising calls attention to their 
 needs, and it is a wise piece of advertising that suggests items at the 
 right time and the right season. 
 
 The Chairman. And the personal contact of the country Store- 
 keeper with his customer takes the place of the contact of the mail- 
 order-house catalogue. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Of course, it is stronger than that. 
 
 The Chairman. That is your point? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I do not know that I made that point, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. It is a strong point, too. 
 
 Mr. Moon. I assure you that it is an important thing in retailing. 
 I assure you, Senator, that it is a very important point in retailing, 
 and no retail merchant ever succeeded who did not solve it. 
 
 The Chairman. He has to be in personal contact with 'his cus- 
 tomers ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. He must get his customers into the store; everything 
 hinges on that proposition. The whole solving of the problem hinges 
 on that. When he gets his people into the store, then the proper 
 display of his goods and the proper selling ability and the proper 
 varieties and those things enter into it. No matter how attractive 
 his store is, or what his salesmanship is, he can not sell goods until 
 he gets the people there. That is a clear-cut proposition in retailing. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose a customer has been in the store; he has 
 seen the goods and has an impression of what he needs. He orders 
 them by telephone or post card. Would it not be to the advantage 
 
* 
 
 PARCEL POST. 571 
 
 of the storekeeper if there was an improved transportation facility 
 between him and his customer ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Occasionally he may see in a store what he decided 
 when he got home that he wanted, but there is very little of that. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Do you not think that the system of delivery 
 that the merchants have adopted was because they found it was ad- 
 vantageous to the business to adopt it ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. What do you mean by that? Which merchants have 
 all adopted — where? 
 
 Senator Bristow. In towns. 
 
 Mr. Moon. In towns where it is large enough they have adopted 
 the delivery for competition; usually one merchant started and the 
 other had to. It increases the cost of doing business without increas- 
 ing the volume of business materially where they all do it. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, we will take a concrete case. We have had 
 presented to us a proposition that a general delivery system exists in 
 this city, where the management makes a proposition to the store- 
 keeper that he will go through their books, provided their books are 
 so kept that they can show what has been the cost of the delivery foi 
 that firm, and offer to do the business himself for 75 per cent of whal 
 it has cost them to do it ; they have made contracts with 200 firms 
 in this city at 75 per cent or less of what it had been costing them 
 according to their own figures. Do you not believe that that is an 
 advantage? Do you not believe that the elimination of duplication 
 of effort is advantageous? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Grounded on general principles, that is true. 
 
 The Chairman. You say as a general proposition ; what would bt 
 a specific instance where that would not be true ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I was just waiting for the deduction that you mighl 
 make from that. If you mean by that that increased facilities foi 
 transportation would be of general benefit, I have reserved my answei 
 dependent upon your application. If you mean increased facilities 
 for parcel post, if you would make the deduction that parcel posi 
 ought to establish on that same basis, then I would withdraw my 
 reply, for the deduction is not the same. It is a wise merchant whe 
 reduces his overhead expenses to the very lowest point, for two reasons 
 He can sell his goods cheaper, and he can make a profit. If he does 
 not do that, he can not. It is a wise merchant who always watches 
 his overhead expenses and also keeps up his service, because good 
 service is always essential. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the next particular point in your paper \ 
 
 Mr. Moon. Adam Smith says, as to the necessity of the wholesaler 
 
 The capital of the wholesale merchant replaces, together with their profits 
 the capitals of the farmers and manufacturers of whom he purchases the rucU 
 and manufactured produce which he deals in, and thereby enables them tc 
 continue their respective trades. It is by this service chiefly that he con- 
 tributes indirectly to support the productive labor of society and to increase 
 the value of its annual produce. 
 
 Again, let me repeat that the increased cost of living has beer 
 brought about largely from the increased per capita consumption, bj 
 the increased cost of production on farm and m factory, by a de- 
 parture from the usual economical habits of our people, and by a 
 lack of scientific methods in the household. 
 
572 PARCEL POST. 
 
 There are those who believe that the increased production and 
 coinage of gold has been an important factor in the increased range 
 of prices, and the figures somewhat reinforce this view. 
 
 The gold coinage in the United States from 1890 to 1900 was 
 $593,047,470; from 1900 to 1909, inclusive, $1,003,778,975. 
 
 The world's production of gold from 1891 to 1895 was $814,736,000; 
 from 1896 to 1900, $1,286,505,400; from 1901 to 1908, $2,867,277,800. 
 
 The per capita circulation of gold in.J;he United States in 1900 was 
 $13.45; in 1909, $18.45; in France in 1909, $23.57; in Germany in 
 1909, $17.23 ; in the United Kingdom in 1909, $12.65. 
 
 Again, let me repeat that the present method of distribution 
 through the wholesaler and the retailer is in nowise to blame for the 
 high cost of living. The margin of profit for the retailer and whole- 
 saler was never closer. 
 
 Mr. Mofft, an English authority on the economy of consumption, 
 
 Under all circumstances of competitive production the opposing currents 
 which move in the direction of quantity and quality, respectively, exist, and as 
 the competition becomes more intense, quality, the less apparent advantage, 
 tends more and more to give way to quantity, the more apparent. 
 
 There are in this country two methods of distribution, the one 
 through the retailer and the wholesaler, the other through the retail 
 mail-order system, and from a view of the facts it is certain the old 
 and recognized method of distribution through the retailer and the 
 wholesaler has served well the people of the United States, and that 
 it has supplied their wants on a very close and fair basis of profit, 
 because in the progress of competition prices are lowered and profits 
 are reduced first always and the last, resort, as Mr. Moffat has stated, 
 "As competition grows more intense, quality is sacrificed and gives 
 way to quantity." 
 
 As Mr. Moffat again states, " Were anyone curious to write the his- 
 tory of commerce, its own records and monuments, he would find 
 everywhere strewn over his path as he advanced in his researches 
 memorials of the devastating effects of the progress of competition 
 upon quality, and even upon fair dealings." 
 
 And what are the facts ? The retailer in this country has been so 
 fair in his exaction of profit that the new method of distribution 
 through the retail mail-order method, even through a scientifically 
 organized and concentrated business, backed by the wealth of mil- 
 lions, directed with rare ability, has not been able to place its goods 
 on the market at a profit in competition with the retail merchants of 
 the country without a very perceptible and unmistakable cut in the 
 quality of its goods. 
 
 To substantiate this statement let me quote from the record of the 
 hearing of the House committee held in July, 1911, in which Mr. 
 .W. J. Pilkington made this statement : 
 
 A few moments ago the question of misrepresentations made by certain 
 classes of large dealers by mail was suggested, and I think it was the chairman 
 who asked why the courts were not resorted to if the misrepresentation was 
 made. I took it upon myself to investigate those conditions. I bought goods 
 and had goods bought from so-called mail-order houses, and especially from 
 one of them, and those purchases led to the indictment of Sears, Koebeck & Co. 
 in the United States court in the southern district of Iowa for using the mails 
 for fraud. When the case was called they made the contention that, being a 
 
PARCEL POST. 57S 
 
 corporation, they could not be brought from one judicial district to another tt 
 answer to a criminal charge. The court before whom the hearing was held sus- 
 tained them in that contention, and possibly some members of this committe* 
 know something of the bill that was introduced at the last session of Congress 
 by Senator Cummins, of Iowa, remedying that defect in the United States laws 
 to make it possible to bring a corporation from one district to another. 
 
 The bill passed the Senate and went into the House and died aborning then 
 in the committee. And, by the way, I want to say to this committee that while 
 the indictment was only brought, I think on four or possibly three items, il 
 could just as well as have been brought on 40 or 50, because we found fraud ii 
 almost everything that we investigated and the investigation even went furthe) 
 than that and included other houses — the other large one I think we might cal 
 it — and while we did not find conditions quite so bad with them, there were in 
 dieations of fraud in practically every place where investigation was made 
 Personally, I believe that the Congress of the United States should enact such s 
 law as to make it a crime to any way suggest in an advertisement a thing thai 
 is to be proposed to deliver to the man that reads the advertisement. 
 
 And, again, let me refer you to that same record, on page 323, t( 
 the testimony given by Mr. P. T. Kathbun, of Springfield, Ohio, ii 
 reference to paint sold under a guaranty by a large retail mail-ordei 
 concern and also the facts as disclosed by an analysis made by th< 
 agricultural experiment station of North Dakota. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, what is he referring to particularly in con 
 nection with frauds? 
 
 Mr. Moon. In the goods sold by the retail mail-order houses. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I can not see what we have to do with that. 
 
 Mr. Moon. I have made the statement here to show the important 
 of the retailer and the wholesaler in the field of distribution. I hav< 
 made a statement to show that the retail mail-order houses in th< 
 United States have not furnished goods to the people cheaper; thai 
 the only way they have been able to meet competition is througl 
 cutting the quality of their goods. 
 
 The Chairman. Your charges ought to be made to the Departmen 
 of Justice. 
 
 Mr. Moon. This whole proposition hinges on the ability of th( 
 retail merchant to serve the trade, serve the people. Have they beei 
 well served? Have they been well served under the present methoc 
 of distribution? Senator, while the Senate committee may not fee 
 that it is pertinent, it is part of this issue. Not only that ; I want t< 
 say more than that : I have heard on the Senate floor, within the las 
 year, some very strong suggestions against the retailer and the whole 
 saler in the present method of distribution. A great many of thi 
 Senators will no doubt read this hearing. Nobody has ever befor< 
 any of the committees advanced the position of the wholesaler anc 
 the retailer. I have talked to the Senators personally and I think i 
 great majority of them think that the retail mail-order houses sel 
 cheaper than the retail merchants. 
 
 The Chairman. And you say that they do not and can not. 
 
 Mr. Moon. I say that they do not, and say that in the field of com 
 petition quality is always cut; loss of quality first. And they havi 
 resorted to cutting the quality of their goods in order to meet com 
 petition. 
 
 Senator Bristow. We are not trying out the tariff question here 
 this is a question of parcel post. 
 
 Mr. Moon. I understand, Senator, but this question -is related to i 
 very closely. This whole problem is involved. 
 
574 PABOBL POST. 
 
 Senator Bryan. In other words, your idea is if anybody runs off 
 with a notion that it would be a good thing to eliminate the retail 
 merchants, you want to have your argument here against this propo- 
 sition ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. That is it, exactly. 
 
 The Chairman. I haven't seen any evidence or testimony anywhere, 
 so far as Congress is concerned, as to the elimination of the country 
 merchant. 
 Mr. Moon. If you had seen the great big volume of educational 
 
 matter 
 
 The Chairman. I say, so far as Congress was concerned. 
 Mr. Moon. I know, but the sources that are inspiring Congress to 
 establish a parcel post are inspired by the very forces I am now 
 telling you about, this line of education which makes the people be- 
 lieve we ought to have a parcel post and the retail merchant elimi- 
 nated. They are one subject and not two, and that is the reason 
 why I have connected them here. That is the reason I am presenting 
 it here to the Senate. 
 
 The Chairman. What the committee want especially is demon- 
 stration that the country merchant would be eliminated. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Well, I have already given you that in five or six propo- 
 sitions I am sure are indisputable ; I am sure those propositions are . 
 absolutely indisputable and they are six propositions which are a 
 part of my paper here. 
 
 The Chairman. Then if you will go on. 
 
 Mr. Moon. I also inclose statements showing the profits of the 
 retail mail-order houses. 
 
 Senator Bryan. That will be interesting. 
 
 Mr. Moon. I also inclose clippings from the newspapers showing 
 the evidence that the increased cost of living is a serious problem 
 in England, France, and Germany, as it is here, and the parcel post 
 has not eliminated it over there. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Has anybody ever claimed that the parcel post 
 was going to eliminate the increased cost of living? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Senator, the deduction comes from the other view of 
 the matter, that we ought to have a parcel post to eliminate the retail 
 merchant who has been responsible for the cost of high living? 
 The Chairman. That is your assumption? 
 Mr. Moon. No ; that is not an assumption. 
 
 The Chairman. There is nothing else before the committee to that 
 effect, other than what you have submitted to the committee this 
 afternoon. 
 
 Mr. Moon. I say, Mr. Chairman, if you were in touch with the lit- 
 erature that is being circulated among the people, asking you to enact 
 a parcel-post law, you would see the force of this. 
 The Chairman. Well, if you willj go on, please. 
 Mr. Moon. I quote some figures in England and Wales: 
 
 In England and Wales the population during the period from 1891 to 1911, in 
 cities of 100.000 to 250,000, increased 4.61 per cent, while in the cities of from 
 3,000 to 10,000 the population decreased 3.51 per cent ; and in towns and vil- 
 lages under 3,000 the population decreased 12.93 per cent, while at the same time* 
 the rural population increased but 2.94 per cent. In Scotland, in the large cities 
 over 4,000, the population increased 18.58 per cent; in the villages, 0.05 per cent, 
 and in the rural districts it decreased 4.60 per cent. 
 
PABOEL POST. 575 
 
 Senator Beistow. How does that compare with our own country? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I haven't the figures for the United States. I inclosed 
 those figures to show the parcel post has not stopped the tendency 
 to the big cities. I am trying to be brief. 
 
 Senator Beistow. At the same time the same tendency is in this 
 country that there is in other countries. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir ; that is true, although the advocates of a parcel 
 post would stop that here, and I simply submit the figures to show 
 it has not done it over there. 
 
 The Chaibman. Kindly go on with the paper. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Now, there is only one other proposition. If you will 
 include my remarks in the record I will omit these points in order to 
 be brief. 
 
 The Chaibman. Unless there is some big point in there. 
 
 Mr. Moon. These are all relative to the points I have brought out. 
 Section 98, of the law of 1904, now on the statute books, reads : 
 
 Rural carriers shall not solicit business or receive orders of any kind for any 
 person, firm, corporation — 
 
 And so on. Now, the point I want to make is this. The law now on 
 the statute books gives the Postmaster General power and authority 
 to establish a local rural parcel post, confined to bona fide residents 
 on the routes. It also gives him the power to establish the weight and 
 the schedule of prices for performing that service. As a business 
 proposition we are not able to understand why, if a rural parcel post 
 itself, a local parcel post is the thing desired by the advocates of a 
 parcel post, why this law has not been made the most of. I have 
 submitted this law to a firm of lawyers in Chicago — Messrs. Cal- 
 houn, Lyford & Sheehan — whom I have no doubt you are acquainted 
 with, Mr. Calhoun being the Minister to China, and they say that the 
 Postmaster General has the power, under this law as it now stands, to 
 do this, and the reason why a rural-route service has not been a success 
 is because there has never been a schedule of weights and prices. If 
 ,a business man had that proposition to execute, the first thing he would 
 do, as it now stands, would be to establish a scale of weights and a 
 scale of prices so the people would know what they are expected to 
 pay and what they could send. I just submit that to the committee 
 for consideration. I have not brought with me in this paper the 
 opinion of the attorneys. 
 
 The Chaibman. Have you taken the matter up with the Post Office 
 Department ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I have not. 
 
 Senator Bbyan. You say, under that act of 1904, the Postmaster 
 General has the authority ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes, sir. I have the written opinion in my office and 
 will be glad to send it to the committee if you want it. 
 
 The Chaibman. We would like to have a copy of it. 1 
 
 Mr. Moon. The members of our association have never been able 
 to understand why it has not been acted on. There is one other 
 proposition, and I will state it briefly, and I will conclude. The 
 members of the American League of Associations believe this propo- 
 sition is a very important one; that it involves a question of distri- 
 
 1 Not yet furnished 
 
576 PARCEL POST. 
 
 bution ; that it involves the welfare of the country merchant and the 
 wholesaler ; they believe that it is too important a question for any- 
 body to attempt to legislate on without most careful investigation. 
 They have asked me to suggest this to the committee: That a com- 
 mittee be appointed to investigate this question and study it, not only 
 at home but in Europe, in order that some deductions may be made 
 and that business men over the country may know more about the 
 subject. They are afraid of it, and they believe that a study of its 
 operations from an economic standpoint and a sociological stand- 
 point in Europe will make Congress hesitate in adopting such a 
 system here. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why do you want a commission? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I just gave you the reasons, because they believe this 
 question ought to be more thoroughly studied. They believe the life 
 of the small town is involved; they believe the present method of 
 distribution is involved; they believe it has connected and. correlated 
 with it a great many tendencies which are dangerous and which will 
 not prove to be to the benefit of the people, but, on the other hand, 
 will be inimical to the interests of the people as a whole ; they believe 
 that the question ought to be studied ; and, as a matter of fact, nearly 
 every time we have discussed this question, thus far every member 
 of this association which I represent looked upon the proposition 
 seriously ; they believe that a commission ought to be appointed to 
 study it carefully and make a report on it so that business men may 
 have an opportunity to make deductions, as well as Congress, and 
 they do not believe it is fair and right to ask any Congressman to 
 legislate on this subject until he has studied it thoroughly and its 
 operation and its effects in Europe and at home as wellj in order to 
 make a comparison. Every business man that I have talked to who 
 has gone to Europe and studied the question comes back absolutely 
 opposed to the parcel post. This is the view of men who have had 
 years and years of experience in the wholesale and retail business, 
 men who know their business and are competent to make deductions, 
 and they are afraid of it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Can you give the names of some of those busi- 
 ness men? 
 
 Mr. Moon. You had one of them before you this morning, Mr. 
 Norvell, of St. Louis, and we will have one of them before you to- 
 morrow morning, Mr. Shapleigh, of St. Louis, men who have been 
 connected with the retail business all their lives; and, as a matter of 
 fact, John B. Green, who was before you last, week, representing the 
 Retail Grocers' Association, has been to Europe and has studied the 
 question, and he comes back decidedly opposed to the parcel post 
 for reasons which have been set forth in my paper to-day. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is, the reasons you have indicated are the 
 reasons which he gives? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Yes; in a general way. 
 
 The Chairman. As I remember, "Mr. Green spent about two days 
 in his study in Berlin. Would vou consider that an exhaustive 
 study? 
 
 Mr. Moon. Mr. Green informed me that he spent six months in 
 Germany and six months in England and Scotland. 
 
 The Chairman. I might be in error. 
 
i 
 
 PARCEL POST. 577 
 
 Mr. Moon. He said two days in the Berlin post office. My ob- 
 servation is that everybody with whom we have talked, every busi- 
 ness man who knows the conditions — and I might say you can not 
 send a man to study them who does not know the wholesale and retail 
 business, because he can not see them unless he does know them — — • 
 
 Senator Bkistow. You would not put a farmer on that commis- 
 sion ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I have not any objection to a farmer being on that 
 commission, but I think they ought to be represented. However, I 
 think the business man ought to be on the committee, in order that 
 you may have men on it who will know all the angles of the busi- 
 ness, and I haven't any objection and I speak for my members. 
 
 The Chairman. The purpose is to get the viewpoints of you gentle- 
 men who are specialists in these particular lines, and we feel we are 
 capable of reaching conclusions ourselves, and it is our duty, pro- 
 vided you give us the information and the light. 
 
 Mr. Moon. All of us have not gone to Europe to study this ques- 
 tion, but we have given you the deductions of every business man who 
 has gone there whom we know anything about, who have made a 
 study of the subject, so far as we are able to say; and every business 
 man who knows the retail business in this country and knows the 
 wholesale business has come back opposed to a parcel post, and he 
 has also found the tendency is toward the destruction of the small 
 towns and villages. We believe those are essential things to con- 
 sider in this proposed legislation, and when I say to you that we pro- 
 pose a commission, I say it to you in all seriousness, and it is the 
 suggestion of the biggest, the best business men in the country. I 
 speak for the heads of Marshall Field & Co., Farwell, W. D. Cross 
 & Co., and all of those large houses. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Marshall Field is not interested in the rural 
 communities. 
 
 Mr. Moon. Marshall Field is interested in the welfare of the 
 country, like everybody else. He is interested in the maintaining of 
 those small towns. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Marshall Field & Co. I thought were retailers? 
 
 Mr. Moon. They are the biggest wholesalers in the United States. 
 
 The Chairman. You have completed your remarks ? 
 
 Mr. Moon. I will finish with this statement. 
 
 During the last month Farm Sense has run on to what we consider 
 one of the meanest, most contemptible pieces of deception and fraud 
 that is being practiced on our readers. This deception and fraud, as 
 we said, is being perpetrated by Sears, Roebuck & Co., with the 
 aid and assistance and knowledge of the Burson Knitting Co., of 
 Rockford, 111. 
 
 Possibly every reader of Farm Sense has noticed that the Burson 
 Knitting Co. do quite a large amount of advertising in the maga- 
 zines and other publications, advertising their trade-mark brand of 
 hosiery known as " The Burson." If the reader will refer to different 
 magazine advertisements of the Burson Knitting Co., you will find 
 that their hosiery is quoted at 25 cents, 35 cents, and 50 cents per pair. 
 So far so good. 
 
 In the latest catalogue issued by Sears, Roebuck & Co., you will 
 find a whole page devoted to the Burson hosiery, and you will find 
 that the Burson stockings on this page from the Sears, Roebuck &• 
 
578 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Co.'s catalogue are quoted at 19 cents, 21 cents, 22 cents, 24 cents, 
 33 cents, and 39 cents per pair. In other words, this Sears, Eoebuck 
 & Co.'s catalogue leads you to believe that Sears, Eoebuck & Co. 
 are selling Burson's stockings at 19 cents while every retail merchant 
 in the world who handles them sells them at 25 cents. It further 
 leads you to the thought that where Sears, Eoebuck & Co. are asking 
 33 cents the merchant is asking more, and where Sears, Eoebuck & 
 Co. are asking 39 cents the retail merchant is asking more for iden- 
 tically the same pieces of goods. 
 
 Now, readers of Farm Sense we want to show you in this instance 
 how fraud is practiced on you. Eemember now that the stockings 
 sold by Sears, Eoebuck & Co. bear identically the same paper at- 
 tached trade-mark that the stockings do that are sold by the retail 
 merchant. So far as the markings of the stockings are concerned 
 there absolutely is no difference at all. 
 
 Now, remember the Burson Knitting Co. have gone into the maga- 
 zines of the United States and advertised their trade-mark, Burson's 
 stockings at 25 cents. The retail merchant puts in a stock of Bur- 
 son's stockings to sell at 25 cents. Now, then, along comes Sears, 
 Eoebuck & Co., with a whole page advertisement of Burson's stock- 
 ings, listing them, as we have said, at 19 cents, 22 cents, etc., lead- 
 ing you to believe that vou are getting exactly the same stocking 
 from Sears, Eoebuck & Co. at 19 cents that you will pay the retail 
 merchant 25 cents for; now remember we are not saying whether 
 or not the retail merchant is getting too much when he gets 25 cents, 
 or whether Sears, Eoebuck & Co. are getting too little when they 
 get 19 cents. We simply want to show you where the fraud is 
 perpetrated. 
 
 Farm Sense has gone to the trouble of getting a pair of Burson's 
 stockings from Sears, Eoebuck & Co., and then bought the same 
 size and kind from a local retail store at 25 cents. The two pairs 
 of stockings bear exactly the same trade-mark. The piece of paper 
 attached to each pair is exactly the same. Compare either one of 
 the trade-marks with the trade-mark advertised in the magazines 
 by the Burson Knitting Co. and you would swear that they were 
 identical, and they are so far as the trade-mark is concerned. These 
 two pairs of Burson's stockings, one bought from Sears, Eoebuck 
 & Co. and the other from a retail merchant, were submitted to a 
 life-long expert on hosiery, a man who spends every day of his life 
 in a knitting factory. He is a man who knows any stitch and every 
 move in the knitting of hosiery. And here is what he found : 
 
 Sears, Roebuck & Co.'s Burson's stockings were 10 per cent short in dye as 
 compared with the Burson stocking bought from the retail merchant. We 
 found that the Sears, Roebuck & Co.'s Burson's stocking was 1J inches short 
 in length. We found that the Sears, Roebuck & Co.'s stocking was 5 per cent 
 ehort in weight. We found that Sears, Roebuck & Co.'s Burson's stocking 
 was 21 stitches short around the stocking and 6 stitches per inch short in 
 length. We found, too, that Sears, Roebuck & Co.'s Burson's stocking was 
 not clipper or singed— that is, the little indication of fuzz that is noticed on 
 the stockings when it conies from the knitting machine had not been removed. 
 We found, too, that the Sears, Roebuck & Co.'s Burson's stocking was made of 
 coarse upland cotton, while the Burson's stocking sold by the retail merchant 
 was made of sea-island cotton. 
 
 Eemember, now, this information we are giving you is not our 
 conclusion, but it is the conclusion of an expert. We want to say to, 
 
PARCEL POST. 579 
 
 the readers of Farm Sense that not one of out of a hundred of you 
 could tell by looking at these two pairs of stockings but what they 
 were the same, and yet see the difference. 
 
 It seems to us that in every possible way Sears, Roebuck & Co.'s 
 Burson stocking had been cheapened even to the reduction of 10 per 
 cent in the amount of dye used in it. You know we have told you a 
 good many times that there was an immense amount of fraud being 
 perpetrated by the so-called mail-order houses that is was impossible 
 for the majority of us to detect. 
 
 Take for instance : In the Burson stocking sold by Sears, Roebuck 
 & Co. and the Burson stocking sold by the retail merchant, there is 
 the difference between upland cotton and sea-island cotton. How 
 many of you know the difference between upland cotton and sea- 
 island cotton? How many of you know the difference between the 
 two kinds of cotton ? And yet, reader, there is all the difference in 
 the world between them. There is a difference in the price, in the 
 texture, and almost everything that has to do with the production 
 of the cottort. 
 
 ■Farm Sense looks upon this stocking question as a great big piece 
 of the rankest kind of fraud. There is not any question at all but 
 what Sears, Roebuck & Co. went to the Burson Hosiery Co. and 
 asked them to make them a cheap stocking, looking almost like their 
 25-cent stocking sold to retail merchants, so that Sears, Roebuck & 
 Co. could buy it of them and retail it at 19 cents and make money. 
 
 We are willing to wager every dollar we are worth that this is 
 exactly the way the deal between Sears, Roebuck & Co. and the 
 Burson Knitting Co. came about. To go further, what do you think 
 of the knitting company posing to be worth your confidence, who will 
 stoop to such contemptible methods of manufacturing goods for the 
 sake of getting a contract? To our way of looking at it, the Burson 
 Knitting Co. is a party to the perpetration of this fraud. 
 
 To our way of looking at it neither Sears, Roebuck & Co. nor the 
 Burson Knitting Co. are entitled to your respect and confidence at 
 all — they both knew the fraud that is being perpetrated; they are 
 both parties to it, and are both deserving of the severest condemna- 
 tion from every honest person, because here is evidently and plainly 
 a plan to deceive and defraud the people; here is evidently an at- 
 tempt on the part of both Sears, Roebuck & Co. and the Burston 
 Knitting Co. to make you believe you are getting something that 
 you are not getting. They evidently attempted to make you believe 
 you were getting a 25-cent pair of stockings for 19 cents, when they 
 both know it is a lie — you are not getting a 25-cent pair of stockings. 
 
 Suppose your neighbor, your farmer neighbor, would attempt to 
 perpetrate such a deception or fraud on you, what would you think 
 of him? Would you have any further confidence in him, or would 
 you believe his word on anything else? No; not for one minute. 
 And yet Sears, Roebuck & Co., financed and controlled from Wall 
 Street, attempted to perpetrate this big fraud on you. We don't care 
 a whoop who it is that attempts to practice such things on the people — 
 whether it be a catalogue house, manufacturer, or who it is — they are 
 deserving of a term in the penitentiary when they- attempt such 
 things. 
 
 With every gallon of Seroco ready-mixer! paint we issue a binding five years' 
 guaranty, by the terms and conditions of which we guarantee our paint to be 
 
580 PARCEL POST. 
 
 the highest grade ready mixed paint made, regardless of price; guarantee it to 
 wear under all climatic conditions for at least five years. We guarantee that at 
 the end of seven years it will look better than any other paint at the end of two 
 years. We guarantee it will not chalk, crack, peel off, rub, or blister. We 
 guarantee it will adhere to wood, tin, iron, galvanized iron, stone, tile, cement, 
 or plaster ; in short, we guarantee it superior to any other paint made, regard- 
 less of price ; guarantee it to cover double the surface and last twice as long as 
 any other paint made. 
 
 These facts, as submitted, prove beyond question that the retail 
 mail-order houses have not been able to compete in price with the 
 retail merchants of the country and sell their goods at a profit save 
 through cutting the quality of their goods. 
 
 It controverts once and for all time the popular notion that the 
 retail mail-order system of distribution can and does effect a saving 
 to consumers of this country. 
 
 And if any other fact were needed to controvert this popular 
 notion it is to be found in these figures, which I am about to submit : 
 
 In a statement issued by one of these large concerns on December 
 31, 1910, these facts were disclosed : 
 
 Total sales $61, 329, 792. 82 
 
 Investments in merchandise in stock 9, 309, 338. 20 
 
 Net profits 6, 759, 876. 35 
 
 These figures show that the net profits were 72 per cent of the stock 
 on hand. They show that the investment was turned nearly six 
 times and that each turn yielded nearly 12 per cent. 
 
 They show a net profit of more than 11 per cent on sales. 
 
 And let me submit that this combined net of more than 11 per cent 
 is the equal of the average combined net profit of both wholesaler and 
 retailer in this country. 
 
 These astounding figures of profit controvert absolutely the popu- 
 lar notion that the retail mail-order system is a money saver for its 
 patrons. 
 
 Then, why do these concerns do such an enormous business? The 
 answer is to be found in a trait of human nature long recognized by 
 business men and by writers on economic subjects. 
 
 Those in the rural communities manifest an inherent desire to 
 make purchases at the county seat or at the nearest large city away 
 from home, at the State capital, or in Chicago, Philadelphia, New 
 York, St. Louis, or as the case may be. 
 
 Those of Chicago take pride in purchasing in New York and those 
 of New York in London and in Paris. 
 
 The bulletin issued by the University of Wisconsin takes cog- 
 nizance of another phase of this question in the following statement: 
 
 The great mass of women have no training in purchasing, and they are 
 subject to the skill of the advertiser without any background to determine 
 whether the thing advertised is worth what is claimed for it or will be of any 
 value in the household. 
 
 Mr. Moffat, an English authority on the economy of consumption, 
 makes this pertinent statement: 
 
 Women are by nature bargainmakers and are always much slower than men 
 In reposing confidence in tradesmen, especially in the matter of price. Even 
 without provocation, they often violently tempt their tradesmen to Impose on 
 them in quality. They accordingly yield readily to the flattering solicitations of 
 advertising tradesmen and exercise a powerful influence in extending and 
 drawing upward the method of conducting retail business by competition. 
 
PAKCEL POST. 5 I 
 
 Advocates of a parcel-post claim that a parcel post will redw 
 the cost of living, and yet it seems that the same complaint about ti 
 increased cost of living is prevalent where parcel post is establishe 
 Allow me to quote from the Chicago Tribune on September 3, 191: 
 
 O'CONNOR TELLS STRIKE CAUSES — HIGH COST OF LIVING AND LOW WAGES ST 
 ENGLISH WORKMEN TO ANGER — POLITICS PLAYS A PART — SOCIALISM HAS MA 
 RAPID ADVANCES AMONG MASSES OF LABORING PEOPLE. 
 
 [By T. P O'Connor.] 
 
 London, September 2. 
 
 What is the meaning of this strange outburst of unrest and violence in t 
 labor world of England which has shocked and alarmed the world during t 
 last fortnight? Even men in the labor world have been taken by surprise; tl 
 whole business has burst with the suddenness as well as the violence of 
 volcano. 
 
 As in most human affairs, the causes, of course, are complex, and they ; 
 back some time. The first of these causes is the enormous growth in the weal 
 of England during the last few years. There have, as everybody knows, bei 
 years of boundless prosperity. 
 
 Liberals and free traders point to these years as unmistakable demonstratii 
 of the wisdom and success of the fiscal system which enables England still 
 buy in the cheapest and sell in the dearest markets. But while these yea 
 have thus been used to prove the blessings of free trade by the middle-cla 
 liberals, they have not solved — it is pointed out by some of the labor leaders 
 some of the social difficulties, and especially the difficulty of the unequal di 
 tribution of the reward between capital and labor. 
 
 COST 01' LIVING INCREASES; 
 
 The working man has seen this high tide of wealth rolling up and i 
 has not found that his position is improved as much as he hoped. Even whi 
 wages have been increased, the position of the working man has remaini 
 stationary; for with the growth of the wages there has been a growth of tl 
 cost of production. 
 
 The growth in the cost of living has been greater than in wages. During tl 
 last 15 years wages in England have risen 12 per cent while the cost of livh 
 has gone up 18 per cent ; and since 1909, while wages have remained stationa 
 the cost of food has advanced 10 per cent. 
 
 Thus the English workman has found himself face to face with this trag 
 paradox, that while the country seemed to be advancing by leaps and bounc 
 he has remained in the same position, and in some cases, perhaps, even in 
 worse position. 
 
 HOPES FOR AID ENDED. 
 
 At the same time there has come to the workman — especially to those in t 
 railway business — a certain exasperating disillusion as to the end of high hop< 
 In 1907 there was the threat of the same kind of war between the railway < 
 rectors and the railway servants which there is to-day. This state of thin 
 confronted Lloyd-George a short time after he had become president of t 
 board of trade for the first time and there was a great deal of curiosity 
 see how the then young and inexperienced minister would meet a situation 
 difficult. 
 
 Everybody knows how he rose to the occasion Kpowd up to this time as : 
 agitator given to violent and provocative language, he was to show the oth 
 side of himself, which is so well known — that of the patient, inexhaustibly go 
 humored, and firm negotiator who could knock men's heads together ai 
 bring them to reason. He was also to exhibit that feverish energy and th 
 power of work which has been one of the secrets of his strength. 
 
 TBEATT OF PEACE RUNS OUT. 
 
 In the end he got the directors and the men to make a treaty of peace, whi 
 was to last for seven years, which established a board of conciliation ai 
 
582 pabcel post. 
 
 which seemed to offer every chance of permanent tranquility, good feeling, and 
 good conditions. 
 
 But there were some necessary hiatuses in that settlement, and one of 
 these was that the trades-unions were not recognized. This is the essential and 
 supreme point of conflict to-day. For what happens now is this — that the 
 grievances of the men have to be set forth by one of themselves speaking 
 before a tribunal consisting of his employers and of men not only in a stronger 
 position than himself, but probably more expert in speech and readier in 
 argument. 
 
 The men, therefore, insist that their case shall be put in a different way; 
 that is to say, by one of their union officials, who is in their employ and not 
 in that of the company, and who can be relied on to speak plainly and clearly. 
 
 APPEALS TO BOARD FAIL. 
 
 In the appeals to the board of conciliation the men have found themselves 
 worsted. This has brought an exasperating feeling of helplessness, and help- 
 lessness partly through chains which they made for themselves when they 
 signed the Lloyd-George treaty. 
 
 This accounts for the exasperation of the railway men and for their break- 
 ing away from their agreement and their old leaders. Indeed, one of the 
 startling signs in these recent labor struggles in England is this breaking away 
 of the usually well-drilled and well-disciplined ranks of the trades-unionists 
 from their old loyal following of their leaders. 
 
 Another factor in the production of these disputes is the growing strength 
 of the more advanced forms of political opinion among the working classes. 
 It is vain to deny that socialism has made many converts in England during the 
 last decade. You see proof of this almost any Sunday of the year in the great 
 English cities. The Socialist lecturer uses the vast music hall, and he speaks 
 to a larger audience than even the most popular preacher in the most fashion- 
 able cathedral. 
 
 WORKERS MORE STIFF NECKED. 
 
 The old patient submission to poverty, to low wages, to long hours no longer 
 exists. The new generation of English workingmen is more stiff necked than 
 the old. 
 
 Finally, an accidental new factor at the present moment is the excessive heat 
 of the weather. Everybody who has any work to do can sympathize with 
 fiercer resistance of the men, who are engaged in dangerous and specially irk- 
 some trades to their conditions of life. Who can think in the middle of such 
 weather of the stoker before the furnace in the big ship or in the big locomotive 
 on land, or in the gas works, or the iron works without a feeling of commisera- 
 tion ; who can wonder at the greater irritability of nerves and of temper. 
 
 HOUSEWIFE MOB WRECKS MARKETS — RIOTOUS SCENES MARK PROTEST AGAINST HIGH 
 
 PRICE OF FOOD IN FRANC?: WOMEN DEFY GENDARMES NEARLY KILL BAKER AND 
 
 THREATEN OFFICIAL WHO TRIES TO PUT STOP TO DISORDER. 
 
 [By cable to the Chicago Tribune.] 
 
 Paris, September 2. 
 
 The strike of the housewives against the high price of food has, according to 
 dispatches from Lille, degenerated into serious riots at Montigny near Lens, 
 and a young man has been nearly killed. 
 
 A large number of women, accompanied by as many men, paraded the com- 
 mune and went from baker to baker to make them sign certain papers con- 
 taining a list of prices. Nearly all the bakers submitted, but in the evening one 
 of them, who was returning with his wagon, was taken by surprise. 
 
 A crowd gathered and wanted him to sign the paper. He did not understand 
 what they wanted and struck out right and left with his whip. 
 
 The crowd then became hostile and threatened to mob him. He rushed into 
 his house for a revolver and came out threatening to shoot. A young man tried 
 to wrench the weapon from his hand, but in doing so it was discharged and he 
 was wounded in the chest. 
 
PARCEL POST. 58 
 
 BEAT BAKER, LOOT HOUSE. 
 
 The mob then became furious, seized the baker, almost murdered him, rushe 
 into his house, smashed all the furniture, and looted it. Another gang dragge 
 the wagon to a field and burned it. All the police and gendarmes in the distil* 
 had to be summoned, and order was restored only late at night. 
 
 At St. Quentin similar riotous scenes took place. On Wednesday TOO o 
 800 housewives, with as many men and boys, marched to the market plac 
 singing the revolutionary " Internationals," and attacked the dealers. The 
 upset the stands and pelted the dealers with vegetables and fruits. 
 
 The disorder became so great that the police were helpless, and the unforti 
 nnte salesmen and saleswomen were driven from the market, pelted wit 
 lumps of butter, with eggs, poultry, cheese, and large chunks of beef. Whe 
 the crowd had thus scattered all the provisions, it tore down the tents an 
 shelters, smashed the tables and benches, and indulged in a regular riot. 
 
 MOB THREATENS OFFICIAL. 
 
 All the butchers and fruit and provision dealers in the town hastily close 
 their shops. The subprefect, with a number of gendarmes, tried to restor 
 order, but was threatened by the mob. 
 
 Scenes of a like description are reported from Caudry, Anzin, and Abscoi 
 where the markets were sacked. At Abscon a farmer defended himself with 
 gun. 
 
 A crowd of women, some 150 strong, besieged a dairy and had to be drive 
 away by gendarmes. Some 500 women at Lens drove all the dairymen to 
 cafg, where they compelled them to hand over butter at a price which the wome 
 themselves settled. 
 
 The whole district around Maubeuge, Lille, and St. Quentin seems to b 
 in a state of revolutionary ferment, fomented by the sudden uprising of th 
 housewives. 
 
 STEPS TO REPRESS VIOLENCE. 
 
 Premier Caillaux has issued instructions to the provincial prefects to repres 
 energetically revolutionary agitation in connection with the food manifests 
 tions. The minister of justice, M. Cruppi, also sent a circular letter to th 
 public prosecutors relative to the punishment of rioters. 
 
 At the same time a national interindustrial commission, composed of th 
 ministers of commerce and agriculture, the director general of customs, an 
 representatives of the wholesale food dealers, was summoned to meet and devis 
 measures for the lowering of the high cost of food. The commission was i 
 session all day long. 
 
 At Dunkirk 300 women marched through the streets, as a demoiistratio: 
 to the Government that it ought to do something looking to the reduction c 
 high prices. All the roughs of Dunkirk joined in looting some of the shop! 
 frightening the remainder of the dealers into barring their store window 
 and doors. Troops have been requisitioned to restore order. 
 
 Also from the Chicago Daily News of October 10, 1911 : 
 
 BERLIN SELLS FOOD TO CUT LIVING COST GERMAN CAPITAL GOES INTO BUSINES 
 
 AS PROVISION MERCHANT TO MEET CONDITIONS — DEALS IN CHEAP SEA FISH- 
 AGENTS GET SUPPLIES AND RETAILERS ARE FORCED TO PUT THEM ON THE MARKE 
 AT 5 TO 6 CENTS A POUND. 
 
 [Special cable to the Daily News.] 
 
 Berlin, Germany, October 10. 
 With a view to mitigating the conditions resulting from the extraordinar; 
 rise In food. prices, the city of Berlin has gone into business as a wholesal 
 food merchant. It embarked formally on the experiment to-day. when at 1 
 of the big public market places quantities of sea fish, purchased by the munici 
 pallty, were placed on sale. According to the plan adopted by the city counci: 
 agents have been sent to Geestemunde, the great fishing center on the Nortl 
 Sea, to contract for the purchase of carloads of sea fish at the best obtainabl 
 wholesale prices. 
 
 21845— vol 2—12 21 
 
5,84 FAB GEL POST. 
 
 SOLD AT LOW COST. 
 
 , On arrival in Berlin the fish is sold at low cost to the retailers, by whoni 
 it is distributed among the consumers. The retailers, however, bind themselves 
 to sell at prices fixed by the city, the authorities hoping that in this way th't 
 public will be able to get certain kinds of highly nutritious fish food at prices 
 as low as 20 to 25 pfennigs (5 to 6 cents) a pound. 
 
 LIVELY SCENES IN MARKET. 
 
 In the markets where the sales began there were lively scenes this morning. 
 Some of the booths were surrounded by excited crowds of poor women eager to 
 make purchases. It is the intention later on to open 70 branch markets under 
 municipal control and possibly to extend the plan to include other varieties of 
 food. Some of the smaller cities near Berlin already have arranged to under- 
 take the purchase of wholesale supplies of potatoes and other vegetables to be 
 distributed in a similar way. 
 
 Advocates of a parcel post claim that by giving the farmer a par- 
 cel-post system he and his family will be induced to remain on the 
 farm, and yet these figures, taken from the Statesman's Yearbook 
 for 1911, very clearly controvert this contention : 
 
 In England and Wales the population during the period from 
 1891 to 1901 in cities of 100,000 to 250,000 increased 44.61 per cent, 
 while in the cities of from 3,000 to 10,000 the population decreased 
 3.51 per cent, and in towns and villages under 3,000 the population 
 decreased 12.93 per cent, while at the same time the rural population 
 increased but 2.94 per cent. 
 
 In Scotland in the large cities over 40,000 the population increased 
 18.58 per cent, in the villages 0.05 per cent, and in the rural districts 
 it decreased 4.60 per cent. 
 
 WHO WILL BE BENEFITED? 
 
 Mr. Charles }Y. Burrows, of Cleveland, Ohio, is authority for a 
 -tatement that we publish more periodicals than all the countries of 
 Europe, Canada, Mexico, Central America, South America, Africa, 
 Asia, and Australia combined. 
 
 The facts are that there is such an overproduction in the number 
 of periodicals that they have reached the point where it is difficult 
 for them to produce results for their advertisers. There are too 
 many of them. 
 
 This included the farm journals, with a combined circulation of 
 pearly 30,000,000 copies a month, carrying, nearly all of them, retail 
 mail-order advertising. 
 
 Most of these periodicals, as Mr. Burrows says, 9 out of 10 of them, 
 are produced solely for (ln> advertising,. but if they are to remain in 
 Business they must all of them produce results for their advertisers, 
 This may account for the fact that a parcel post, through these me 
 diums, has been ardently advocated for the last half dozen years. 
 
 If they can educate the farmers of this country up to the point cf 
 demanding and getting a parcel-post service, they would without 'a 
 doubt double the results to many of their advertisers, because a parcel 
 post would give a delivery system to their " direct-to-you"" advertis- 
 ing^ patrons. 
 
 The beneficiaries of a parcel post would prove to be the publishers 
 of the popular periodicals and magazines, the publishers of the farm 
 journals, and their advertising patrons — the retail mail-order con- 
 cerns. 
 
PARCEL POST. 585 
 
 In our opinions these are and would prove to be the sole and the 
 only beneficiaries of a parcel-post system in this country. , 
 
 And as Mr. John A. Ordway, president of the New England Dry 
 Goods Association, very ably and tersely states: 
 
 Parcel liost does nothing, creates nothing, carries with it no lifting of bur- 
 dens, but, in effect, takes from A to give to B, without assurance or guaranty 
 of betterment of service or conditions. A parcel post will transfer the business 
 of the retail merchant of the country to the retail mail-order houses. 
 
 Our forefathers brought with them into this country the privileges 
 of English freemen. These rights, the right of personal security, 
 the right of personal liberty, and the right to acquire and enjoy prop- 
 erty, have been justly considered and frequently declared by the 
 people to be natural, inherent, and unalienable. 
 
 The people have repeatedly asserted that the free enjoyment of 
 these liberties was due to every man in his place and proportion and 
 ever had been and ever would be the tranquillity and stability of the 
 State. 
 
 It has been repeatedly and expressly ordained that no person 
 should suffer without express law, either in life, limb, liberty, good 
 name, or estate. 
 
 The right of eminent domain, clearly in line with these principles, 
 gives to the State the control of private property for public uses, and 
 for public uses only. 
 
 For the Government to take the property of A and give it to B 
 under the pretext of some public use or service would be, as Chan- 
 cellor Kent so clearly states : " A gross abuse and a fraudulent attack 
 on private right " as guaranteed to English freemen and as repeatedly 
 recognized as a true fundamental and constitutional doctrine in 
 English and American law. 
 
 And now a word as to a so-called local rural parcel post : 
 
 We are opposed to it because it is merely an " entering wedge " for 
 a general parcel post, and for that reason must be regarded, as the 
 initial step toward all the evil consequences of a general parcel post 
 and subject to all the objections of such a system. 
 
 In every country community clubbing agents of retail mail-order 
 concerns would be induced to canvass for orders by the lure of at- 
 tractive premiums. The orders secured would be packed and marked ■ 
 for each purchaser, and would then be shipped by freight or express 
 to the town or towns having the initial rural route ; they would then 
 be opened and dropped by the canvasser into the post office for deliv- 
 ery. The result of such a plan would be to deprive the country 
 merchant of his trade, and with the full lines carried by the retail 
 mail-order houses the plan would out-Larkin Larkin with their 
 soaps and spices, and with which a trade of millions has already been 
 secured and taken away from the retail merchants of the country. 
 
 There is also another phase of this question to which I wish te 
 call your attention. 
 
 Section 98 of the law of 1904 reads as follows : 
 
 OUTSIDE EMPLOYMENT RESTRICTIONS — SOLICITING EORlilDDEN. 
 11904, Apr. 28, ell. 1759, 33 Stat, h., 40.] 
 
 Sec. 98. Rural carriers shall not solicit business or receive orders of any kind 
 for any person, firm, or corporation, and shall not, during their hours of employ- 
 ment, carry any merchandise for hire : Provided, That said carriers may carry 
 
586 PARCEL POST. 
 
 merchandise for hire for and upon the request of patrons residing upon their 
 respective routes whenever it shall not interfere with the proper discharge of 
 their official duties and under such regulations as the Postmaster General may 
 prescribe. 
 
 BUSINESS IN WHICH CAEEIEES SHALL NOT ENGAGE. 
 
 2. Rural carriers shall not engage in or conduct any business while they are 
 on or off duty which offers the temptation to solicit patronage on their routes, 
 or which by reason of their official position gives them special advantage over 
 competitors, such as book canvassing, soliciting, iusurance, selling sewing ma- 
 chines, or kindred occupations. 
 
 EXPRESS BUSINESS — WHAT MAY BE CABRIED AS SUCH. 
 
 3. Rural carriers are permitted to carry, outside of the mails, for hire, for 
 and upon request of patrons of their routes, only unmailable articles or pack- 
 ages of merchandise, articles and packages of mailable matter weighing over 4 
 pounds, and mailable and unmailable articles when combined in one package 
 whether weighing in the aggregate more or less than 4 pounds, provided such 
 articles are received from one merchant or patron to be delivered to one mer- 
 chant or patron. 
 
 WHAT MAY NOT BE CARRIED AS SUCH. 
 
 But intoxicating liquors (;irdent, vinous, spirituous, or malt), explosives, 
 liquids liable to explosion by shock or jar or to spontaneous combustion, or any 
 article exhaling bad odor, shall not in any circumstances be carried by rural 
 carriers in their vehicles while on the service of their routes or while they 
 have mail in their custody for delivery or dispatch. 
 
 MAILABLE MATTER MUST NOT BE CARRIED AS EXPRESS — EXCEPTIONS. 
 
 4. With the exception of matter entitled to free transmission through the 
 mails, under the franking privilege, and county newspapers, which by law 
 may be carried free to actual subscribers residing in county of publication ex- 
 cept when addressed for delivery at post offices having city delivery, and with 
 the exception noted in the preceding paragraph, no mailable matter weighing 4 
 pounds or under shall be carried by rural carriers while on duty unless postage 
 thereon at regular rates has been paid. 
 
 ARTICLES SHALL BE RECEIVED BY CARRIERS IN PERSON — INTERFERENCE WITH OFFICIAL 
 
 DUTIES PROHIBITED. 
 
 5. Express matter which patrons desire carriers to carry shall be delivered to 
 carriers in person, and they are not permitted to leave their official routes while 
 on duty to receive or deliver such merchandise, and shall not accept anything 
 that will delay the mail or in any way interfere with the service. 
 
 COMPENSATION TO BE PAID BY PATRON. 
 
 6. The fee for delivering express matter shall be paid by patron for whom 
 service is rendered, and carriers can not receive compensation from merchants 
 for delivering express matter to patrons. 
 
 The intention was without doubt to establish a local rural parcel 
 post, confined to resident patrons on the routes. 
 
 This gives the farmer a parcel-post service to and from his local 
 trading point, and in January, 1910, according to the Post Office De- 
 partment 147,000 packages, in round numbers, were handled under 
 this provision. 
 
 It has not been a success, and why ? Because the element of uncer- 
 tainty prevents. There is no fixed and specified schedule of weights 
 or of compensation for performing the service. If a business man 
 
PABCEL POST. 587 
 
 were working under this provision, this is the first step he would take, 
 and if there is any real demand for a parcel post such an arrange- 
 ment would make it a success. 
 
 Now, this law has been submitted to very able lawyers, and it is 
 the opinion of these lawyers that under the law as it now stands the 
 Postmaster General has power to fix a schedule of weights and of 
 compensation, the one thing lacking to make it a satisfactory service. 
 
 Of course, as the provision now stands, it would prove extremely 
 difficult for the retail mail-order houses to secure any special advan- 
 tage over the local merchants. 
 
 I would not say that this is why the Postmaster General has al- 
 lowed this law to remain inoperative, or why those living in rural 
 communities have not had the benefit from the law that was evidently 
 intended and which they should and would enjoy. 
 
 There are, in round numbers, about 40,000 rural free delivery routes 
 now in operation, and it is estimated that there at least are 40,000 
 more routes laid out on paper. 
 
 Eural free delivery has proven very useful in disseminating knowl- 
 edge and intelligence among the people, and although this service has 
 been performed at a loss, yet its value from an educational standpoint 
 fully justifies the required expenditure, and it does seem that educa- 
 tion, the dissemination of knowledge and intelligence, is right now at 
 this time of more importance to the welfare of the country than the 
 carrying of merchandise ; it does appear that this very important edu- 
 cational work should be completed ; it does seem as a matter of justice 
 that the remaining 40,000 rural routes should be established before 
 we shall begin to talk about the additional service of carrying soap 
 and perfume to those already enjoying the benefits of rural free 
 delivery. ' 
 
 The proposed parcel-post legislation involves the business welfare 
 of perhaps a million retail merchants and 50,000 wholesalers. 
 
 Their combined business amounts to several billion dollars annually. 
 
 It involves also the financial welfare of several hundred thousand 
 traveling men and as many clerks in retail stores. 
 
 It involves also the welfare of the small towns and villages of the 
 country. 
 
 In the past it has seemed to be the policy of the Government to 
 proceed with caution in legislation carrying with it so many and 
 such grave consequences. 
 
 When bimetallism was before the people a commission was ap- 
 pointed to study that question abroad before any legislation was 
 attempted. 
 
 A tariff commission has served the same purpose. 
 
 When the proposition to revise our banking laws was placed be- 
 fore the people, a commission was appointed to study the banking 
 systems of the world before any proceeding to legislate. 
 
 And it seems to the members of the American League of Asso- 
 ciations that the parcel-post question is one worthy of most careful 
 study and investigation before any legislation shall be attempted. 
 
 In Congress after Congress bills have been introduced providing 
 for a parcel post and yet no one seems to know what its effects are 
 likely to be. No one seems to be able to even conjecture as to what 
 the outlay will be, or what the cost of operation will be. 
 
588 PAKCEL, POST. 
 
 As a business proposition, should not this subject be approached 
 with a spirit of investigation that some of these important matters 
 may be more carefully weighed and considered ? 
 
 It is the opinion of the members of the American League of Asso- 
 ciations that a commission to study this question at home and abroad, 
 to report on the probable outlay and the probable cost of operation, 
 the number of additional employees required, its economic and its 
 sociological effects is a step very much to be desired and most cer- 
 tainly in harmony with good business practice. 
 
 Such a commission, we would suggest, should be nonpartisan in 
 character and should be appointed with a view of securing a compre- 
 hensive and unbiased report, a report upon which Congress and the 
 business men of the country may rely. 
 
 We believe that haste ofttimes makes serious waste, and that 
 much good and most certainly no harm may come from a business- 
 like procedure in this very important matter. 
 
 The Chaihman. The committee is very much obliged to you for 
 the information you have given us. The committee will now stand 
 adjourned until to-morrow morning at 11 o'clock, and as I assume 
 you gentlemen are all acquainted with one another, if you will ar- 
 range among yourselves as to the order of the hearings we will be 
 glad to hear from you in the order that will be most convenient to 
 you. 
 
 (Thereupon, at 5.20 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until 
 11 o'clock a. m. Tuesday, December 12, 1911.) 
 
 o 
 
PARCEL POST 
 
 HEARINGS 
 
 BEFORE THE 
 
 SUBCOMMITTEE ON PARCEL POST 
 
 OF THE 
 
 SENATE COMMITTEE ON POST OFFICES 
 AND POST ROADS 
 
 UNDER 
 
 S. RES. 56 
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO AND REPORT TO THE SENATE AT THE EARLIEST 
 DATE PRACTICABLE WHAT CHANGES ARE NECESSARY OR 
 DESIRABLE IN THE POSTAL SYSTEM OF THE UNITED 
 STATES OR IN LAWS RELATING TO THE POSTAL 
 SERVICE, AND PARTICULARLY WITH REFER- 
 ENCE TO THE ESTABLISHMENT OF 
 A PARCELS POST 
 
 DECEMBER 12, 13, 14, 15, 18, 28, AND 29, 1911 
 
 VOL. Ill 
 
 WASHINGTON 
 
 GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
 
 1912 
 
COMMITTEE ON POST OFFICES AND POST ROADS, UNITED STATES 
 
 SENATE. 
 
 Sixty-second Congress, Second Session. 
 JONATHAN BOURNE, Jk., of Oregon, Chairman. 
 BOIES PENROSE, of Pennsylvania. WILLIAM LORIMER, of Illinois. 
 
 WINTHROP MURRAY CRANE, of Massa- JOHN H. BANKHEAD, of Alabama, 
 
 chusetts. ROBERT L. TAYLOR, of Tennessee 
 
 SIMON GUGGENHEIM, of Colorado. ELLISON D. SMITH, of South Carolina. 
 
 FRANK 0. BRIGGS, of New Jersey. CLAUDE A. SWANSON, of Virginia. 
 
 HARRY A. RICHARDSON, of Delaware. NATHAN P. BRYAN, of Florida. 
 
 WILLIAM O. BRADLEY, of Kentucky. JAMES E. MARTINE, of New Jersey. 
 
 JOSEPH L. BRISTOW, of Kansas. 
 
 A. W. Peescott, Clerk. 
 II 
 
TABLE OF CONTENTS. 
 
 (Vol. 3: Pages 589-875) 
 
 1911- Pages. 
 
 Dec. 12. Testimony of Mr. M. L. Corey, secretary National Retail Hardware 
 
 Association, Argus, Ind 589- 613 
 
 12. Testimony of Mr. P. T. Rathbun, secretary Tri-State Vehicle and 
 
 Implement Dealers' Association, Springfield, Ohio 614-626 
 
 12. Testimony of Mr. W. J. Pilkington, publisher and editor the Mer- 
 chants' Trade Journal, Des Moines, Iowa 627-645, 693-697 
 
 12. Testimony of Mr. A. L. Shapleigh, representing the Wholesalers of 
 
 Kansas City and St. Louis, Mo 646-656 
 
 12. Testimony of Mr. James L. Cowles, secretary and treasurer, Postal 
 
 Progress League, New York City 657-670 
 
 13. Testimony of Mr. Ralph O. Wells, Hartford, Conn., attorney for State 
 
 Business Men's Association of Connecticut (Inc.), and Merchants' 
 Association of Connecticut 671-692 
 
 13. Testimony of Mr. Allen W. Clark, editor American Paint & Oil Dealer, 
 
 St. Louis, Mo 698-702 
 
 14. Testimony of Mr. James C. Phillips, representing the Baltimore 
 
 Credit Men's Association, Baltimore, Md 703-718 
 
 14. Testimony of Mr. Edward J. Shay, representing the Baltimore Bar- 
 gain House, Baltimore, Md 719-724 
 
 14. Testimony of Mr. S. F. Miller, representing the Wholesale Clothiers' 
 
 Board of Trade, Baltimore, Md 725-727 
 
 14. Testimony of Mr. R. A. McCormick, of McCormick & Co., Balti- 
 more, Md 728-735 
 
 14. Testimony of Mr. W. E. Jenkins, Baltimore, Md., representing the 
 local council of the United Order of Commercial Travelers of 
 America 736-740 
 
 14. Testimony of Mr. Henry F. Poske, Baltimore, Md., representing 
 
 the Maryland Division of the Travelers Protection Association . . 741-742 
 
 15. Testimony of Mr. W. S. Richardson, representing the National As- 
 
 sociation of Retail Druggists, Washington, D. C 743-752 
 
 15. Testimony of Mr. William P. Gude, Washington, D. O, represent- 
 ing the Society of American Florists and Ornamental Horti- 
 culturists 753-755 
 
 15. Testimony of Miss Florence Etheridge, vice-president Stanton 
 
 Suffrage Club, Washington, D. C .' 756-759 
 
 15. Testimony of Mrs. Jennie L. Munroe, president Women's Single 
 
 Tax Club, Washington, D. C 760-762 
 
 15. Testimony of Mrs. Anna Kelton Wiley, president Stanton Suffrage 
 
 Club, Washington, D. C 763-764 
 
 15. Testimony of Miss Harriette J. Hit'ton, Washington, D. C 765-779 
 
 15. Testimony of Mrs. Charles O. H. Craigie, president Brooklyn Library 
 
 Association, Brooklyn, N. Y 780-785 
 
 15. Testimony of Mrs. Le Droit L. Barber, president Equal State 
 
 Suffrage Association, Washington, D. C 786-789 
 
 18. Testimony of Mr. Charles W. Burrows, Cleveland, Ohio, represent- 
 in" the National Shoe Wholesalers' Association 790-813 
 
 28 Testimonv of Mr. W. T. Creasy, Catawissa, Pa. , master Pennsylvania 
 
 State Grange ---.---. 814-822 
 
 28. Testimony of Mr. John A. McSparran, secretary legislative com- 
 mittee Pennsylvania State Grange 823-846 
 
 28 Testimonv of Mr. J. T. Ailman, secretary of the Pennsylvania State 
 
 ' Grange" 847-850 
 
 29 Testimony of Mr. George P. Hampton, representing the Farmers' 
 
 National Committee on Postal Reform and the Posta Express 
 Federation, New York, N. Y 851-875 
 
 in 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 
 WASHINGTON", D. C, TUESDAY, DECEMBER 12, 1911. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 
 Present : Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), Senator Joseph 
 L. Bristow, and Senator Nathan P. Bryan. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. M. I. COREY. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Corey, it will be necessary for you to be sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age and present occu- 
 pation? 
 
 Mr. Coret. Fifty-eight. I am secretary of the National Ketail 
 Hardware Association. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you been secretary of the asso- 
 ciation ? 
 
 Mr. Coret. Since 1901. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly explain for the information of 
 the committee as to the scope of your association, the membership, 
 and how extensive it is over the country. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Do you want it by States, the number of members in 
 each State, or how ? 
 
 The Chairman. Just the total membership of your association; 
 what representation ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. We have a total membership of 14,000 firms. We have 
 an associate membership of over 2,000. 
 
 The Chairman. In effect, you figure you have 16,000 firms in the 
 organization ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes, sir; we have. 
 
 The Chairman. In every State in the Union? 
 
 Mr. Corey. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What States have you now ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, I can tell you we have members in 34 States. 
 We have no members in Louisiana, Maryland, Virginia, New Mexico, 
 Arizona, and Utah. They are the only States I think of now, but 
 there may be more. 
 
 The Chairman. You say those States you are not represented in? 
 
 Mr. Corey. We are not represented in the States I have mentioned. 
 
 The Chairman. You appear here in your official capacity as rep- 
 resenting the organization? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you opposed to or in favor of a parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Corey. I am opposed. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you give the committee your definition of 
 
 a parcel post ? 
 
 r 589 
 
590 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Corey. "Well, sir, I should say that a parcel post would begin 
 ■where the present mailing facilities leave off. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you would not term the fourth-class mail 
 matter parcel post even to a limited nature ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. No, sir. I think that question was never raised until 
 Postmaster von Meyer's time. The people over the country under- 
 stand when one speaks of a parcel post that it is to be something 
 new. I noticed in your classification in this table that you have 
 gotten out that it speaks of a parcel post when established and says 
 "not established." If that would follow here, why would not that 
 conclusion be reached? 
 
 The Chairman. What I want in particular is your idea as to what 
 constitutes a parcel post. 
 
 Mr. Corey. My idea would be expressed in this statement. 
 
 The Chairman. " Not established " was a clerical error in the mak- 
 ing up of the table, and as I explained before, I appreciated your 
 calling my attention to that. 
 
 Mr. Corey. But it goes further, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. That is true. I understand it says "not estab- 
 lished." 
 
 Mr. Corey. That is true. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; but it says furthermore, " except that pack- 
 ages of merchandise up to 4 pounds in weight are accepted for mailing 
 at 1 cent an ounce or fraction thereof." 
 
 Mr. Corey. That is all true. That would be the position in which 
 I would look at it. 
 
 The Chairman. The principle, so far as the parcel post itself is 
 concerned, is established under the fourth-class mail matter. 
 
 Mr. Corey. That is all true. 
 
 The Chairman. The question is to increase the scope and activity 
 of that branch of the postal service, and we are merely quibbling 
 with words on the other position. 
 
 Mr. Corey. That is right, Senator; and I have no disposition to 
 push this matter excepting that it has a bearing in this way: For 
 years there has been determined opposition to a parcel post from 
 the retail trade. On the other hand, the farmers, and others possibly, 
 who have been advocating a measure, have been asking for a parcel 
 post. Now, the effect of it is something like this : Our people write 
 to their Congressmen, for instance, the Senator, and say, "We are 
 opposed to a parcel post," and they get a letter back saying that we 
 have a parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. Which is true. 
 
 Mr. Corey. That is true ; yes,; to a certain extent. 
 
 The Chairman. To a limited extent ; yes. 
 
 Mr. Corey. And of course then it becomes a question for them to 
 study and investigate along what lines this should be developed in 
 the future, or along what lines their opposition would rest, and the 
 ordinary country merchant or the farmer neither one has the facts 
 before them nor the time nor the inclination to investigate to the 
 extent that they will understand the situation. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the question before us is this, as it comes to 
 my mind, and I would like your criticism on this position : We have 
 a parcel post already in operation within the limit of 4 pounds 
 weight and a cent an ounce rate. They are carrying merchandise 
 
PAECEL POST. 59! 
 
 and other matter not carried in the first, second, and third class mai] 
 and with the elimination of material that would injure the mail with 
 out going into the specific classification. Now, the question is befor 
 Congress, or rather before this committee, as to whether we shal 
 enjoy the scope of that governmental activity, and to what extenf 
 That is the question. 
 
 Mr. Corey. I understand the question ; but, Senator, we would lib 
 a definition, which you are no doubt prepared to give us, as to th 
 dividing line between the legitimate functions of the postal servic 
 and the parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, when we come to that conclusion the coun 
 try will be aware of our determination in that respect. 
 
 Mr. Coret. No ; I mean now. 
 
 The Chairman. No. We are in process of ascertaining it now 
 We are in process of a study of the question, and we are trying t( 
 get all possible information and views relative to the matter befor 
 we come to our determination. 
 
 Mr. Coret. I see you do not understand what I would like to hav 
 denned, and that is, where the parcel-post service really begins. Is i 
 with the 1-ounce package? Does our legitimate mail function en< 
 with letters and postal cards and begin with the smallest possibl 
 package which would pass through the mails? Is that the dividing 
 line? 
 
 The Chairman. Your legal line is according to the prohibition no\ 
 in force in the Postal Department, or your privilege. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Then, we would not have a parcel post strictly in i 
 legal way at the present time ? 
 
 The Chairman. I do not concur in that at all. We have now ; 
 parcel post limited to 4 pounds and limited in rate to 1 cent per Ouno 
 postage. That is what we have now. What you will have is fo: 
 Congress to determine, and Congress is operating along the line to tr 
 to secure all possible information bearing upon the subject, and thei 
 coming to a determination as to what in their opinon is for the genera 
 good of the country as a whole with the least possible injury to th 
 individual. Now, that is our line of inquiry. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, I understand, but I don't yet get the dividing 
 line between the two which I would like to know. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that is the line that we want to determim 
 ourselves. 
 
 Mr. Corey. No ; not for the future, but for the present. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, you have got at the present, as I stated be 
 fore, your fourth-class mail matter ; you are permitted to send certaii 
 things at the rate of 1 cent an ounce up to 4 pounds. You are per 
 mitted to send certain merchandise that way. There you have, if yoi 
 please, what is a limited parcel post. The question before Congres 
 is whether its activity should be extended ; and if so, to what extent ' 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, now, suppose that I would send a package of let 
 ters by mail. Is that under a parcel post or is that mail ? 
 
 The Chairman. You send it as first-class mail matter. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, suppose it would go as second-class mail matter ' 
 
 The Chairman. Well, you can not send it as second-class mai 
 matter. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Not second class, but fourth class. 
 
592 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. You could not send it fourth class if it was writ- 
 ten. 
 
 Mr. Corey. No; that is all true; but suppose that I would have 
 some circulars. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that goes in accordance with the provisions 
 and rules of the department under the classification of mail. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, that is a parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. No ; it is not a parcel post unless carried as fourth- 
 class mail. 
 
 Mr. Corey. The smallest package we send as fourth-class matter 
 marks the line of a parcel-post beginning. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I do not see that this has been any bearing 
 on the subject, and I do not want to take up the time of the commit- 
 tee with that. What we want to get is your information and your 
 views, and we would like to get them as concretely as possible, as we 
 have a lot of things that we have to attend to. Have you prepared 
 a statement? 
 
 Mr. Corey. A short statement. 
 
 The two main points that have been used to create sentiment favor- 
 ing a parcel post are: First, regulation of express rates; second, to 
 harmonize the domestic with foreign postal charges. 
 
 We are not champions of the express companies. Investigation 
 will show that our influence has been eVer active in urging reason- 
 able express charges. We believe in seeking reform in a direct and 
 business way; in using the same machinery that regulates freight 
 tariffs instead of entering into a war of competition. As regards 
 comparison between the foreign rate of 12 cents per pound or frac- 
 tion thereof a pound and our domestic rate of 1 cent per ounce, we 
 believe investigation will show that perhaps 90 per cent of the total 
 number of packages sent by mail will weigh less than 18 ounces, a 
 domestic cost of 18 cents, as against a foreign of 24 cents. We can 
 send a 1-ounce package to Manila for 2 cents, but it costs 12 cents to 
 England. 
 
 No matter how low our foreign rate, merchandise could not be 
 shipped into this country by mail in any great quantities because of 
 tariff and other restrictions. We believe in the present policy of our 
 Government to discourage the general use of the mails for large pack- 
 ages or merchandise transportation and to give special attention to 
 the quick and safe delivery of letters and reading matter. 
 
 Under our present system small-package business is very profitable 
 to the postal department. They can be handled in regular mail 
 pouches and carried by hand to and from many depots without dan- 
 ger of loss or damage. They can be distributed by postal clerks 
 almost as easily and speedily as letters. A package too large for a 
 box in the post office or a mail pouch is continually in the way until 
 it is delivered into the owner's hands. An accumulation of such 
 packages such as we find about Christmas completely demoralizes the 
 average country post office. 
 
 It is claimed parcel-post extension would pay a profit. At the 
 present time every mail carries a large number of small packages at 
 1 cent per ounce. As there is no other channel for transporting these 
 small packages for less money, it is safe to assume that the mails are 
 now handling nearly all of this business, and at a price that pays a 
 
PARCEL POST. 593 
 
 profit. Suppose y OU re d uce the present rate one-half, then you must 
 carry double the present number of small packages before you can 
 receive the same income, while the cost of handling and transporting 
 has been nearly doubled. You have converted a profitable part of 
 your business into a losing, and no individual has been materially 
 benefited. It has been proposed that these small packages be sent 
 by freight or some slower and cheaper route than letters. To-day 
 we get in the course of a year in our business hundreds of electros 
 and other small packages, and nearly always they arrive in same mail 
 as the letter announcing shipment. If delay and uncertainty of deliv- 
 ery obtained, we would be forced to have them handled by express. 
 This is true of much of this small-package business and the Postal 
 Department would certainly suffer material loss from any change in 
 this direction. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you ship any of your electros by express? 
 
 Mr. Corey. No, sir; we occasionally have a bunch coming in by 
 express, but when we ship them out we always send them by mail. 
 However, when they come in possibly 90 per cent of them come by 
 mail. 
 
 The Chairman. For what reason do you ship them by mail, because 
 it is cheaper than sending them by express? 
 
 Mr. Corey. No, sir. Well, yes, sir ; I would say, for a small one we 
 do. An electro, as a rule, weighs under a pound. 
 
 The Chairman. So that it is cheaper for you to utilize the fourth- 
 class mail matter than it is the express ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. It is cheaper for us. Another thing, they could not be 
 sent to us by express from the fact that nearly always we pay the 
 express ; the express is paid at our end of the line — that is, when we 
 receive them. 
 
 The Chairman. When you prepay you get a cheap rate? 
 
 Mr. Corey. When we prepay we get the same rate when they run 
 over a pound. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, you were speaking of less than a pound. 
 If you prepay by express you get a cheaper rate from the express 
 company than you would if you sent them C. O. D., do you not? 
 
 Mr. Corey. I do not think that we ever ship a small package of 
 electros by express. You said yesterday that the express companies 
 extend the same prices to the small prepaid packages as the mail. 
 
 The Chairman. Sixteen cents a pound, which is the result of the 
 Interstate Commerce Commission's investigation. 
 
 Mr. Corey. But that has not been the rule with us m our shipping 
 in the small towns, and that seems to be a recent matter. 
 
 The Chairman. But the reason you ship by mail, instead of ex- 
 press, is that you can do it cheaper. 
 
 Mr. Corey. 'No, sir; that is not the only reason. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that is one of the reasons. 
 
 Mr. Corey. We prefer all our matter to come through the mail be- 
 cause' it comes regularly all the time and we can go to the post office 
 and get it. 
 
 The Chairman. It is a better service? 
 
 Mr. Corey. It is a better service ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Both cheaper and better? 
 
 Mr. Corey. The price is not considered, even. 
 
594 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 The Chairman. It is taken into consideration in your determina- 
 tion, together with the efficiency of the service, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes, sir ; every time. 
 
 The Chairman. So that it is considered, then ? 
 
 Mr. Coret. The mail service is more efficient and you can rely on 
 it much better than you can on the express. 
 
 People who buy or sell merchandise should pay at least the full 
 cost of transportation, and in a country so large as ours this would 
 require a tariff based upon distance and other carrying conditions. 
 A zone rate. It is an absurd business proposition to agree to carry 
 merchandise from Washington to Spokane for the same price as from 
 Washington to Baltimore. 
 
 The Chairman. The Government carries our first-class mail, and 
 our second, third, and fourth class. 
 
 Mr. Coret. That is not individual transactions, in the strict sense 
 of the word. 
 
 The Chairman. Are not they individual transactions in our fourth- 
 class matter? 
 
 Mr. Corey. I will make the distinction — commercial transactions. 
 
 The Chairman. But you, as a representative of a vast number of 
 commercial organizations, have just stated for the benefit of the 
 committee that you shipped your electros by mail. Is that not a 
 commercial transaction ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. That might be, and yet in a strict sense it is not. 
 
 The Chairman. What is your line of distinction ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Electros are something that are intended, in the first 
 place, to be cuts that we use in our publication. They are distinctly 
 and closely connected with the reading matter. If I would buy these 
 electros to sell again it would be a different proposition, as I look at 
 at it. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You would oppose any change in the system of 
 handling electros that would forbid you to receive them by mail as 
 fourth-class mail matter ? Would you not ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. I certainly should. 
 
 Under some of the bills that have been proposed a New England 
 manufacturer could deliver in California merchandise wrapped in 
 separate packages and addressed to individuals at less than the car- 
 load rate by freight. 
 
 The Chairman. What bills do you refer to ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. I think that you will find that a number of the bills 
 that have been proposed 
 
 The Chairman. Well, name one, please, for the benefit of the com- 
 mittee. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, what one is it that Mr. Cowles was for so 
 strongly ? 
 
 The Chairman. You made a distinct statement on which the com- 
 mittee would like definite information. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes, sir ; I will place these bills in your hands, but I 
 do not remember the names because there have been so many. 
 
 The Chairman. I would like just one where the proposition is to 
 carry merchandise through the mails cheaper than the carload rate 
 by freight. 
 
 Mr. Corey. I have them down at the hotel, I think. 
 
PARCEL, POST. 595 
 
 Senator Bryan. Cheaper than the carload rate by freight? 
 
 Mr. Corey. The carload rate on freight is so much ; we have inves- 
 tigated that. 
 
 Senator Bryan. The carload rate is in excess of the rate proposed 
 in some bill ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. The carload rate would be in excess of the postal rate 
 on 11-pound packages. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a different proposition. There are cer- 
 tain bills before Congress. 
 
 Mr. Corey. It has been before Congress, and I think it is now. 
 
 The Chairman. What we want is what is before Congress now. 
 
 Mr. Corey. I say, in some bills ; I do not say it is before Congress 
 now. 
 
 The Chairman. All that we can consider now are the things that 
 are before us, and not hypothetical or imaginary bills. 
 
 Mr. Corey. The statement is not important from our point of view. 
 
 The Chairman. It is important to the committee, however. There 
 is a specific statement which requires further information and con- 
 crete corroboration of the statements upon which you make the asser- 
 tion, don't you see? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes, sir; I think I can place the facts in your hands 
 before I leave the committee. 
 
 This or no other Congress can ever satisfy the parcel-post promoters 
 until such condition really exists, for the prime motive back of all 
 this agitation is the building up of mail-order transactions. 
 
 The established merchants in the South and far West would be 
 injured most, because these sections are still in the developing state. 
 Credit demands upon dealers are greater, store expenses higher, and 
 the natural law of distance protection would be eliminated. 
 
 Make the country merchant's business a losing venture and you will 
 wipe out your best class of taxpaying citizens and local-enterprise 
 boosters and depreciate the value of not only town property, but 
 every farm in the community. A parcel post such as is demanded 
 will go far toward eventually bringing about such conditions. 
 
 For more than 10 years this subject has been discussed in our con- 
 ventions as well as considered by committees. 
 
 The Chairman. In that connection, did I understand you to say 
 a little while ago that the agitation was started by Ex-Postmaster 
 General Meyer ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. No, sir; it was not started then. Postmaster General 
 Meyer, I said, was the first man to discover that we already had a 
 parcel post. I believe I am right in that, although I am not going to 
 take that position outside of my own case. 
 
 The result is that at least 09 per cent of the retail hardware mer- 
 chants of this country are emphatically opposed to any parcel-post 
 extension. . 
 
 We have spoken of Postmaster General Meyer. It might be ger- 
 mane to say that he was very active in starting and carrying on 
 this campaign, and it extended so far as to work the postmasters' 
 organizations and encourage them to pass resolutions favoring par- 
 cel post, and I had a statement here from their official organ of 
 
 April . 
 
 The Chairman. What year? This year? 
 
596 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Last year. In that statement their president says in 
 his monthly letter to the members, postmasters: 
 
 I am wondering why more of you are not making a noise like a petition for 
 the lor'al parcel post. You want things, but you do not seem to be willing to 
 do things. If you want the department to do something for you, you ought 
 to be willing to do something for the department. 
 
 This proves that it was necessary to whip the postmasters into 
 action, and we are willing to submit it to this intelligent committee 
 whether it is a proper or legitimate function of any Government 
 branch to engage in manufacturing sentiment on any doubtful ques- 
 tion of this character. 
 
 The Chairman. You say their official organ. Please designate 
 the name of the organ. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Postmasters' Advocate, published here in Washington. 
 
 It is claimed that parcel-post extension is necessary to make rural 
 free delivery self-sustaining. From a financial standpoint, rural 
 free delivery never was nor never can be justified. It is a service 
 rendered without regard to cost and intended to educate and uplift 
 the farmer. 
 
 The Chairman. You are opposed to the rural free delivery ser- 
 vice? 
 
 Mr. Corey. No, sir ; but from a financial standpoint we believe it 
 can never be made to pay. 
 
 It is a service rendered without regard to cost and intended to 
 educate and uplift the farmer. 
 
 If its future depends upon parcel-post extension, then we do not 
 hesitate to pronounce it the colossal mistake of the century. The 
 postal department is doing more for the farmer than for any other 
 class of our people. I live in a small town with five rural carriers. 
 Every day they pass our office with mail intended for farmers miles 
 away. When we want our letters we must go to the office and get 
 them. Not only this, we are compelled in order to secure any kind 
 of prompt service to rent a box at an expense of $1 to $6 per year. 
 All our cities have free delivery door to door. Does this look as if 
 the small town was receiving a square deal from the postal depart- 
 ment? 
 
 The Chairman. The boxes you rent are where? In the post 
 office? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You do not rent the boxes in front of the homes? 
 
 Mr. Corey. In the towns ? 
 
 The Chairman. No; I mean on the rural-delivery routes. 
 
 Mr. Corey. No, sir; the injustice of the thing is that the farmer 
 can buy his box and put it up in front of his place and the Govern- 
 ment serves him right in front of his door every day. 
 
 The Chairman. You, living in the town have a box, or you can 
 go to the post office for your mail ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. We are living in a small town and we have no delivery 
 of any kind. If we go to the post office to get our mail, we are com- 
 pelled in order to get prompt service to rent a box, because to fall in 
 line and be served at the window 
 
 The Chairman. Would be a waste of time ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Not only a waste of time, but I do not believe the post- 
 master himself could handle the business ; therefore, in that way, we 
 
PARCEL POST. 597 
 
 are doing something for the postal service as well as getting a service 
 lor ourselves. 
 
 The Chairman. But your determination is your own, on the ground 
 of greater convenience and expedition of service. 
 
 Mr. Corey. That is true. 
 
 The Chairman. You are not obliged to do this. There is much 
 force in your point ; understand I am not differing with you in your 
 distinction there for there is considerable force in your argument, 
 but you are not obliged by the Government to do this, but you of 
 your own free will do it on the theory that you save time and it is a 
 convenience to you, and you are willing to pay that much for that 
 specific purpose. 
 
 Mr. Corey. That is true, but the farmer does not need to have a 
 box in front of his place. 
 
 The Chairman. He has a delivery which you do not enjoy, you say. 
 
 Mr. Corey. He has a delivery which we do not enjoy, and the 
 dealer in the city has his mail brought right to his door or to his 
 store, and they have a service which costs the Government a large 
 amount of money, though I am not prepared to say whether it is self- 
 sustaining or not. 
 
 It is said a rural parcel post will benefit the country merchant. 
 We doubt this. Our success, as has already been stated, depends 
 entirely upon our ability to bring the people into our stores, where 
 we can show our goods and explain and demonstrate their quality 
 and usefulness. Mail-order success hinges upon their staying at 
 home and buying without seeing. Rural free delivery took away the 
 necessity of coming to town for mail, and to this more than any 
 other cause can be attributed the growth of mail-order buying within 
 the last 10 years. Their gain of trade has been largely at the ex- 
 pense of the cross-roads stores, which closed their doors after vainly 
 trying to exist after the loss of their local post office. 
 
 Advocates of parcel post say this legislation will bring the great- 
 est good to the greatest number. We emphatically disagree with 
 any such statement. It certainly will not benefit the wholesaler, the 
 traveling man, hotel keeper, country newspaper, merchant, black- 
 smith, or town resident, of whatever calling or occupation. It will 
 not build better schools or more churches. It will cost the farmer in 
 depreciation of farm values and removal of social advantages $10 to 
 every $1 of saving he can secure. These are not unwarranted state- 
 ments. Establish foreign features in the United States and you 
 bring Old World conditions, and our people will sink, sooner or 
 later, to the same level. What brings foreign people to our shore, 
 90 per cent of them being farmers or laborers? Why do they nearly 
 always prosper here, when they could barely live in their own coun- 
 try? The policy of our Government has always been to encourage 
 the building up of thousands cf communities rather than a few large 
 cities and business concerns. Parcel-post extension is a step in the 
 opposite direction, and a long one. 
 
 The Chairman. I notice you referred there to the fact that the 
 rural free delivery could be attributed as the cause of the growth of 
 the mail-order buying, and you also stated that their gain of trade 
 was largely at the expense of cross-roads stores, which closed their 
 doors. In that connection it would be interesting to the committee 
 
598 PARCEL POST. 
 
 if you can give a statement of your own personal knowledge where 
 stores have been closed and have gone out of business. 
 
 Mr. Corey. I can tell you that and will not go outside of our own 
 locality. 
 
 The Chairman. That is what we want. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Six miles west of us there used to be four stores where 
 to-day there is only one little weak grocery. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, now, how long ago did the four stores 
 exist ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Ten years ago, or possibly 12. 
 
 The Chairman. What was the population then of the zone served 
 by those stores ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. That was 6 miles west of our town, and it is about 4 
 miles west of the next village ; it is about 12 miles north to a city ; it 
 was not a large zone. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, how many people do you think were served 
 by the four stores, in hundreds of people, if you can give it, just an 
 estimate ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, it is a new point that I had not considered. I 
 will say, possibly, between two and three hundred families. 
 
 The Chairman. That were served by the four stores ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Ten years ago ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Ten years ago. Now, there may be twice that many. 
 
 The Chairman. In that same zone ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. You think the population there has doubled in 
 that zone served by those four stores in the last 10 years ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. The population has increased. 
 
 The Chairman. Doubled, you say? 
 
 Mr. Corey. No ; I did not say so. 
 
 The Chairman. I thought you said just now there might be twice 
 as many. 
 
 Mr. Corey. I said there might have been twice as many at that 
 time, and I am just guessing, because I do not know where their 
 boundary limits extended. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Has the population increased or decreased in that 
 particular place in the last 10 years ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. I would say in this particular place it increased, al- 
 though there were a greater number of small farms there then than 
 now. I can go in another direction and give you the same sort of 
 results, excepting in possibly a more extended way. 
 
 The Chairman. Where has that trade gone, in your opinion; the 
 trade of those four stores ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, sir: that trade has gone to the large towns— a 
 certain extent of it — and a certain extent of it has gone to the mail- 
 order houses. 
 
 The Chairman. You, I assume, haven't any actual knowledge as 
 to the percentage. What would be your guess as to the percentage 
 that has gone to the large towns, of the trade the former enjoyed by 
 those four merchants? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, now it would be a guess. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; I, of course, understand that. 
 
PAECEL POST. 599 
 
 Mr. Corey. If I was to divide it, without investigation, I would 
 say that it had been divided possibly equal, or nearly equal. 
 
 The Chairman. You say there is a large town within 10 miles. 
 How much of a town? 
 
 Mr. Corey. About thirty-five hundred. 
 
 The Chairman. With good roads to that town ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. No, sir. There again, you must qualify; we have 
 ordinary roads. 
 
 The Chairman. But they are traveled daily ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Traveled all the time. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, in the locality previously served by the four 
 stores, that is a farming community? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Does the farmer take his produce to the town of 
 3,500 population, 10 or 12 miles away? 
 
 Mr. Corey. I would say he divided it possibly between three 
 towns, and some of it he ships himself from the small town ; there is 
 still a station there, although the passenger trains do not stop at 
 that place. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, don't you think that diversion of custom 
 formerly enjoyed by the four stores in the small town has been due 
 to the fact that the residents of that zone, who previously bought at 
 the four stores, get better prices for their purchases by going to the 
 large town? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, that might enter somewhat into the calculations 
 and yet the larger towns existed about the same, 10 years ago, when 
 these other four stores were in operation. 
 
 The Chairman. Then years ago they had the same railroad facili- 
 ties? 
 
 Mr. Corey. The same railroad facilities. 
 
 The Chairman. The passenger trains did not stop any more than 
 they do now? 
 
 Mr. Corey. I think that they did; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Would not that be a factor? 
 
 Mr. Corey. That would be a factor. 
 
 The Chairman. Coming into your conclusion? 
 
 Mr. Corey. That would be a factor, but the reason the trains do 
 not stop now, possibly, is because of the fact that they go to the other 
 towns to take them. The people are compelled to ; it is the natural 
 trend. 
 
 The Chairman. In your opinion, did the railroad itself desire to 
 centralize population in these other towns, or have interests there, 
 which in their opinion were larger, to protect or enlarge or benefit, 
 than to benefit the town where the four stores existed 10 years ago ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. I do not believe that the railroads cut any figure in 
 the movement in particular. I can not say that. 
 
 The Chairman. So far as the cessation of the stopping of the 
 passenger trains at that time was concerned ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. No. I have in mind another town ; one 5 miles south 
 of us that had four stores, and which now has one. I think they 
 have one, possibly, a very small one. There has been elimination 
 there. Also in another town further south, which shows the same 
 results. On the other hand, of course, there have been localities 
 
600 PARCEL POST. 
 
 where small towns have grown up. I do not say that this is the 
 general rule all over the country, for it is not; and as we all know, 
 every rule has its exceptions. But in my opinion, the taking away 
 of the post office — I am not going to say that it was a bad thing or 
 a good thing for the community in general — undoubtedly did exert 
 a very bad effect on what we call the cross-roads stores. Other things 
 might also enter into the calculation. 
 
 Senator Bryan. For how long a period of time had these four 
 stores existed at this small town? 
 
 Mr. Coeey. In the first instance I related they had existed pos- 
 sibly 20 years. 
 
 Senator Bryan. There had been four stores there for 20 years? 
 
 Mr. Corey. No. But they had grown to that extent. There was 
 only one at the first and it had been there 20 years from the 
 beginning. * 
 
 Senator Bryan. For how long a period did the four stores exist 
 at one time? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Possibly 10 years. In the other instance the town 
 was much older, and the business interests used to be much greater 
 than they are now. 
 
 The Chairman. Kindly give the committee your deductions as to 
 the cause of the elimination of three of those four stores in that par- 
 ticular town which came under your personal supervision. 
 
 Mr. Corey. I would say that the primary cause was the fact that 
 they lost their post office, which took away the incentive for going to 
 that post office for mail. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the main cause? 
 
 Mr. Corey. That is, in my opinion, the primary cause. 
 
 The Chairman. Then what bearing does that example or illustra- 
 tion that you have given have upon the question of enlargement of 
 the scope of our present fourth-class mail provision ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. My idea is that any parcel post that would be success- 
 ful would depend for its success upon the transportation of mail- 
 order purchases to a great extent. 
 
 The Chairman. But the illustration, or the example you specified, 
 of the elimination of three stores from a certain zone out of the four 
 existing there for a period of 10 years has no bearing whatever upon 
 the question of the enlargement of the scope of our parcel post, 
 does it? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes, sir; in my opinion, yes. I was just coming to 
 that. If you increase mail-order buying it is at the expense of 
 already established local stores, and when you take away their busi- 
 ness, the business not as a whole, but partially, it compels a losing 
 proposition for the whole town and necessarily brings a readjustment. 
 
 The Chairman. But in the example stated you gave your opinion 
 that the primary cause for this elimination of three out of the four 
 existing stores in this particular town was due to the removal of the 
 country post office. 
 
 Mr. Corey. I stated a moment ago, Senator — possibly you did not 
 get the idea — that the success and the prosperity of the merchant 
 in the small town depends upon his ability to bring the people of 
 that community into his store where he can show and demonstrate 
 his goods. Taking away the small post office from the small store 
 took away the incentive of the people to visit that little town. Not 
 
PARCEL POST. 601 
 
 only that, but of course it brought them in direct relation with the 
 larger town, where the rural carrier started from, and necessarily, 
 or rather by force of inclination, they gradually drifted off in that 
 direction. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Do you believe the establishment of the rural 
 system has been a benefit? 
 
 Mr. Coeet. A benefit? 
 
 Senator Bryan. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Speaking from a selfish standpoint? 
 
 Senator Bryan. Speaking from the standpoint of the duty of the 
 Government to deliver matter to the citizens of the country. 
 
 Mr. Corey. I would say I would hardly approve of the present 
 rural free-delivery system. 
 
 Senator Bryan. That system, however, that has been established 
 by the Government, results necessarily in abolishing some of the 
 post offices., does it not? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes, sir. 
 
 The CxIairman. And you feel that the cause of the dimunition of 
 the number of stores at those particular towns you have mentioned 
 is the discontinuance of the post office at that place? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, doesn't that in your opinion, in order to be 
 consistent in your argument, lead to the proposition that the estab- 
 lishment of the rural-route delivery has been an injury to the local 
 merchant and to the small town? 
 
 Mr. Corey. To the small crossroads merchant, if I would look at 
 it from his standpoint, I would say that it had been an injury. 
 
 The Chairman. Notwithstanding that, however, as I understand,, 
 you would be opposed to the discontinuance of the present rural 
 free-delivery system? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes, sir. But I wish to draw the distinction that the 
 present rural free-delivery carriers only carry mail and writing mat- 
 ter to the farmer. If you are going to make that an avenue of de- 
 livering merchandise to him, then I certainly would oppose it and 
 feel that the rural delivery was a mistake. 
 
 Senator Bryan. But it is your opinion that the rural delivery 
 system has worked to the injury of these small stores already. 
 
 Mr. Corey. It surely has. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Yet, notwithstanding that, you would be opposed 
 to the discontinuance of that system ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Do you use the mail to get any other fourth-class 
 matter ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, in our particular business we would not, be- 
 cause we do not have any demand. I am speaking for myself. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You stated that you would be opposed to the dis- 
 continuance of the fourth-class mail matter, or rather to the discon- 
 tinuance of your privilege to have electros sent by mail. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Do you not consider that the rights of other peo- 
 ple who do not buy electros, but buy other fourth-class mail matter 
 that is carried by the parcel-post system, have the same right to have 
 these small packages carried that you have to have the electros 
 carried ? 
 
 21845— vol 3—12 2 
 
602 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Cokey. They have; yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Then, how could you consistently oppose the ex- 
 tension of this benefit, which you now enjoy, to other citizens who 
 might also desire and be entitled to enjoy it by reason of the same 
 system that gives you the right to receive through the mails your 
 electros ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. We do not oppose it, and it would not make any differ- 
 ence if we did, the carrying of anything up to the present limit for 
 individuals. They all have the same privilege that we have, but the 
 business of the country is adjusted to the present basis. When it 
 comes to an extension— — - 
 
 Senator Bryan. But, however, there would be involved in the ex- 
 tension no new principle, would there ? The thing is established now, 
 and you are opposed to having it abolished, are you not ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Therefore the principle is established. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, if you are going to make that the boundary line 
 of the present mailing facilities— — 
 
 Senator Bryan. Well, there is no principle involved as to whether 
 it is 4 or 5 pounds. The principle is the same in both instances. 
 
 Mr. Corey. The small package; yes. 
 
 Senator Bryan. So, therefore, you are not opposed to the principle 
 involved, but simply to the extension of that privilege that you enjoy. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, now, understand here, so far as the principle is 
 concerned, it is a different proposition entirely. When I said that I 
 believe that the present arrangement is satisfactory, I speak because 
 it is established, because I do not think that you ought to make too 
 many changes in the postal division. When you come to the principle 
 of a thing, of carrying merchandise by mail, I should certainly say 
 that I was opposed to it first, last, and all the time. I do not believe 
 it is a proper function of the Post Office to engage in the carrying of 
 merchandise. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Then why should not you abolish it altogether? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, that is up to you. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You say you oppose the abolishing of it ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. I am not here to argue for you to abolish anything. 
 I am giving you my views so far as I actually believe, as a matter of 
 principle, that our postal department should limit its activities to the 
 carrying of mail and the distributing of intelligence. 
 
 Senator Bryan. But you certainly concede, do you not, that there 
 is no change of principle by the mere reason of the fact the size or 
 the weight of the package is increased ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. I think the principle would probably remain the same, 
 although that does not prevent me from opposing it as a principle. 
 
 Senator Bryan. No. In order to be consistent you would have to 
 advocate the abolishment of the whole thine, wouldn't you ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Not necessarily. You have already established certain 
 lines, and I believe you will find the business men of this country do 
 not desire continual changes in anything along the line of govern- 
 mental propositions. We would rather know what we are doing all 
 the time. Whenever you get anything established, I believe if it 
 works out harmoniously, it will be better possibly to leave it that way. 
 
 The Chairman. You are making changes all the time wherein 
 
PARCEL POST. 603 
 
 you are benefited, are you not? That is success in management, 
 primarily. 
 
 Mr. Corey. We make changes ; that is true. 
 
 The Chairman. You bring about elimination of duplications and 
 the adoption of economies where it can be done with efficiency ; I do 
 not mean false economies, but economies that show a benefit direct. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the desideratum of every business. 
 
 Mr. Corey. That is true. 
 
 The Chairman. Shouldn't it be so with the Government? 
 
 Mr. Corey. But here comes the question. The question we are 
 here to object to is the extension. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, now, Mr. Corey, there is one thing I would 
 like to call to your attention and that is this: In the examples you 
 have given us of a community of 300 families, wherein in your judg- 
 ment it might have been twice that number, but you are satisfied 
 there were at least 300, there were 4 stores that served those people 
 10 years ago, and now there is only 1. Were the 300 families bene- 
 fited or injured by the removal of that business from the 4 stores and 
 the distribution of that business into other towns. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, that would be a debatable point probably, but 
 in my opinion those people were not materially benefited. 
 
 The Chairman. Were they injured? 
 
 Mr. Corey. I am not going to say that they were, because they 
 transferred their trade to so short a distance that the change was not 
 noticeable outside of the people who were directly interested in the 
 other business. 
 
 The Chairman. The community was not depopulated; in your 
 opinion there is a greater population there to-day notwithstanding 
 the fact that these three stores have gone out of business, than there 
 was at the time they were in business in that community. 
 
 Mr. Corey. So far as the farmers living in the' vicinity are con- 
 cerned, I believe there are more to-day than before. So far as the 
 people who were living in those small towns are concerned, a number 
 of the houses are empty. 
 
 The Chairman. In the towns? 
 
 Mr. Corey. In the towns. 
 
 The Chairman. That, in your judgment, if I correctly understand 
 you, was primarily due to the removal of the post office from that 
 town and possibly effected by the change of policy of the railroad in 
 the stoppage of passenger trains at that point. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Primarily due to the removal of the post office, I think. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Where was this town? 
 
 Mr. Corey. We have two of them almost exactly of the same char- 
 acter ; one is 5 miles south, and the other is 6 miles west. I am speak- 
 ing of our immediate locality. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What was the name of them ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, one of them is called Walnut. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How far from what city ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Argus, that is our own town; one of them is 5 miles 
 south of Argus. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The other was the same distance ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Six miles. 
 
604 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Those towns are all in Indiana? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Eight in Indiana, right in our own country. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Lots of towns have disappeared in Kansas, and 
 we do not charge that to the rural delivery or to anything else, ex- 
 cept the evolution of events that will happen in every country. 
 
 Mr. Corey. I am not charging this to the rural delivery. I am 
 giving 3'ou my opinion, expressed time and again among the people, 
 that the primary cause that started it the other way was the removal 
 of the post office. 
 
 The Chairman. Before you go on, I would like to. ask you if this 
 is an article that was prepared by you or is it an article that has been 
 passed upon by your association officially? 
 
 Mr,. Corey. This is an article that represents the opinions of our 
 people. 
 
 The Chairman. Prepared by you? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Prepared by me. 
 
 The Chairman. And submitted to the members of your asso- 
 ciation ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. No, sir ; not to anyone except our president. 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, it embodies the views of your 
 people as you understand them. 
 
 Mr. Corey. As expressed in conventions. 
 
 The Chairman. The paper submitted has not been submitted to 
 any member of your organization, which consists of 14,000 members, 
 or, in effect, as I understand it, except to the president of the asso- 
 ciation. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Except to the president of the association. But in 
 expressing these views I might say that there is not anything that 
 we have spoken of that has not been discussed at our conventions and 
 has not been acted on that is important. Of course there may be 
 some of these small statements in regard to rates, and so forth, which 
 are my own statements. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Was it the consensus of the convention that the 
 present scope of the parcel post be permitted to remain as it is ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. I think that the consensus of opinion all along the line 
 would be that there be no extension. I believe also that they would 
 prefer leaving matters as they are. I am speaking, however, on the 
 latter point from my own point of view. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, to a casual observer, it would appear 
 that you favor the present condition as it is, because you can utilize 
 it to your advantage in getting electrotype and things of that kind, 
 but you would oppose the extending of it — the increasing of the 
 size of the package at the request of other concerns or elements in 
 the country, because they think that would be to their advantage ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. They have the same advantage to-day that we have 
 on any small package. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes; but they think they would like to have 
 larger packages than 4 pounds and you object to them having them 
 larger, because you could not use it to your advantage. Is that it ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. No, sir; I am not speaking from a selfish standpoint. 
 If you undertake to satisfy the people who would be glad to have 
 this extension, you would be without limit; there must be a line 
 drawn somewhere. The postal authorities have already drawn one 
 which we have adjusted our business to and the business of the 
 
PAKCEL POST. 605 
 
 country. Now, in our opinion, any increase would be followed by 
 more increases, and it is to that point more frequently that we 
 raise our objections. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And just keep on until the Government began 
 to handle all the freight? 
 
 Mr. Corey. They might go into the transportation of freight, 
 which might mean governmental ownership of the railroads and 
 everything else, in the future. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Some people believe that would be a good thing. 
 
 Mr. Corby. I understand that, but I hardly believe this committee 
 would concur in that view. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Referring to the rural-delivery parcel post, 
 which I understand you to object to, do you think it would be an 
 injury to the local merchant if on a bad day a farmer could not go 
 to town very well, but he telephoned in, or dropped a postal card 
 to his merchant with whom he does business in town, and asked 
 him to send out certain things that he needed? Would that be an 
 injury to the local merchant? 
 
 Mr. Corey. For instance, to send out 10 pounds of sugar. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, yes; anything. A pair of gloves or a 
 monkey wrench. 
 
 Mr. Corey. He can do that to-day. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How? 
 
 Mr. Corey. The rural carrier has the right to carry to the patrons 
 at the request of patrons on the route. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And he gets a fee for it in addition to his salary. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why should not the Government get that fee? 
 The Government is paying the rural delivery carrier a salary. 
 
 Mr. Corey. I am not prepared to argue that position. I am speak- 
 ing of the thing that exists. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The fee is whatever the rural carrier has a mind 
 to charge? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes, sir. I have been served that way when I was 
 camping up in northern Minnesota. 
 
 The Chairman. And you were glad to get your articles ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. I was glad of it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why should not the Government have that fee? 
 
 Mr. Corey. That is for you to say. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is what you are objecting to? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, when you come to a question of rural delivery, if 
 there was any way of placing a rural delivery in operation without 
 its calling for an extension all along the line, and leading to a general 
 delivery, it might be looked upon as a different proposition. You 
 spoke yesterday of establishing a zone of 50 miles. It was a new 
 point to me, and T had never heard that stated before in that way. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Pardon the interruption, but don't confuse the 
 zone system and the rural delivery parcel post, because they are 
 entirely separate. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, this was a general delivery you spoke of. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The general parcel post was the zone I had ref- 
 erence to. 
 
 Mr. Corey. That is the reason I asked you, because I did not under- 
 stand. 
 
606 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The rural free-delivery parcel post that I have 
 had in mind for many years and which I recommended once when 
 I was in the Post Office Department provides for a merchant at the 
 town where the rural route originates to mail a package to some 
 patron on that route, some customer of his who lives on that route, 
 for a certain rate of postage. 
 
 Mr. Corey. At a fixed charge? 
 
 Senator Bristow. A fixed charge. That will be delivered the 
 same as the mail, but it is not applicable to any transportation of 
 that mail other than on that particular route. It could not go on 
 the railroads or anything of the kind. It is just like a drop letter. 
 For instance, take an office where there is a free delivery, for 1 cent 
 you can drop a letter to any patron of that office, a sealed letter, for 
 1 cent, provided they go to the post office for it. It is 1-penny postage 
 provided there is free delivery in the town. The rural delivery of 
 parcels would be simply an extension of that facility, the different 
 rates being based for the services rendered. Now, the zone system 
 that I have referred to would apply to a general parcel post. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Fifty miles in either direction. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes; in a radius. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Now, I live in a small town and am very well ac- 
 quainted with all the carriers, and have even gone so far as to go 
 over their routes at times. I would think that the average carrier 
 will be up against a pretty hard proposition sometimes in the local 
 rural posts. For instance, we pass out of a town and make a turn 
 and go down, like they all do. You can not reach all the houses, and 
 we will say here is a crossroad; at that crossroad there will be five 
 or six mail boxes, and the people living up here from a quarter to a 
 half mile, or even farther than that, sometimes come down to this 
 crossroad to get their mail. Now, suppose a package starting out 
 under a rural post, the carrier would get to this corner and there was 
 no one there to receive it; it might be an inclement day; we might 
 build some sort of a box or something that would hold the packages; 
 but in case there was not anybody there it would be a disadvantage. 
 The package would itself be damaged by the water before anyone 
 could come there possibly to claim it. Now, with ordinary mail, on 
 a bad day, when it is cold, windy, and stormy, the rural carrier sim- 
 ply drives up to the post stationed alongside the box and, without 
 getting out of his conveyance, deposits the mail in the box and drives 
 off. With a package, however, he would have to get out of his con- 
 veyance. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That depends on circumstances. Those are 
 merely details that would have to be adjusted. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes. Things all have to be adjusted. Of course I 
 realize there are difficulties that exist. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Of course some things, for instance, like the 
 Ladies' Home Journal would not go into the mail box. There are 
 those questions that have to be worked out by the officers immediately 
 in charge and regulations formed suitable to the proper conduct of 
 the service, whatever it was. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, it has been stated that it would be a great advant- 
 age to the farmer that a farmer in a harvest field who has his ma- 
 chine break down and wants it repaired could telephone into town and 
 have a part sent out by the parcel post. But that is hardly applicable 
 
PARCEL POST. 607 
 
 in practice, because of the fact that if he would break down in the 
 field he could not wait until the next day to have it brought out, 
 But, anyhow, he could go into town and get back there a great dea] 
 quicker. It would not be used by the farmers near as much as might 
 be thought. Another thing, under the present rule, of where the 
 rural carrier can now carry packages, though not under a fixed 
 charge, that service is not used scarcely at all. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Then, isn't this alarm of you gentlemen simply 
 thin air? 
 
 Mr. Corey. I am not alarmed over the rural delivery scheme. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You are alarmed by the general extension? 
 
 Mr. Corby. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You would have no objection if you knew they 
 were going to stop at 11 pounds ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. On the rural system? 
 
 Senator Bryan. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Corey. I do not believe it would be practicable; that is my 
 objection. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It would be an advantage to the local merchant 
 and the farmer if it was of any advantage at all ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Let me tell you why it would not be an advantage. Ir 
 the first place we are all of us trying to sell our goods for cash, anc 
 if we sent them out that way we would have to increase our credit 
 system. 
 
 The Chairman. The country merchant sells for cash ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. We are trying to get toward a cash basis. The dealei 
 himself would have to take that to the office, place the package in th< 
 office, and prepay the charges, wouldn't he? 
 
 The Chairman. Sure. Just like any other postage matter. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Then he has to charge up the cash investment as wel 
 as the credit investment. But suppose, for instance, there were hal: 
 a dozen dealers in a town ; the first thing that would happen woulc 
 be this, and I will submit it to you for you know enough aboul 
 country conditions to know that it is true : Some one will say I wil 
 deliver to you by rural mail, free of charge, anything that you ma] 
 order of us. Everyone would do the same thing, and consequently 
 the merchants would be paying all the delivery charges. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; but you would put that on the cost of th< 
 article. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes ; where the mail-order house would come in wouk 
 be underselling you more than ever. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The mail-order house would have to do th< 
 same thing? 
 
 Mr. Corey. No; they are selling their goods in Chicago and we an 
 selling ours in the little towns. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They would have to pay 16 cents per pound ii 
 
 Chicago. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Wouldn't you be glad for them to take the peopl 
 whom you would not want to credit ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. No ; because those very people come in and want to bw 
 and will buy when they have the money. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Well, they would buy from you when they ha< 
 the money? 
 
608 PARCEL. POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. A man who had an account with you would pay 
 you, but I don't think it would be as extensively used in any event, 
 as you gentlemen seem to think. I think, if you will pardon the ref- 
 erence, that this alarm, this frantic alarm here that the towns of the 
 country are going to be wiped out at once, and hundreds of men put 
 out of the mercantile business, is ridiculous. 
 
 Mr. Corey. You are speaking of a general parcel post, or a rural 
 parcel post? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Sure. 
 
 Mr. Corby. The general? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. Now, let me get to this zone proposition. 
 
 Mr. Corey. All right; let's see what the zone proposition is. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose within a radius of 40 miles of your 
 town you could mail to anyone who ordered from you a package for 
 4 cents a pound, and if it was 150 miles away we will say 6 cents a 
 pound, and we will say for 350 or 400 miles it will be 7 cents a pound, 
 and so on up until you get to a thousand or fifteen hundred miles, 
 and when you reach 2,000 miles 16 cents would be the rate. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, that is the zone system? 
 
 Senator Bristow. The zone system. 
 
 Mr. Corey. That is the only system that we believe would be prac- 
 tical, if a parcel post must be instituted. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, would not that help the local merchant in 
 the small community? Wouldn't it be giving him a facility which 
 he now does not have? 
 
 Mr. Corey. No, I believe not; because of the fact that the smaller 
 the town and the smaller the merchant, the less able is he to take 
 advantage of selling outside of his own community. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is true with the small merchant. 
 
 Mr. Corey. His opportunities are limited. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But I have in mind now, and I do not mind 
 telling you, a manufacturer of shoes at Olathe, Kans., who employs 
 40 men in a town of 1,500 people, and he sells all of his shoes, and 
 ships them either by mail or by express ; he sells them all over the 
 western part of the United States, a peculiar brand of shoes that 
 appeals to a certain class of people. Would not the man who was 
 enterprising and energetic, who wanted to go into that line of busi- 
 ness out there in the country, where he can handle this business 
 without being congested in a great city, if he had the same facility 
 for reaching his trade and his customers that he would if he lived in 
 Kansas City or in Chicago, wouldn't he be more likely to develop a 
 business of that kind out there away from the trade centers ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. We can not all go into the mail-order business. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, I grant it that the small man in the coun- 
 try with the small store can not compete with the large store in the 
 large city for some reasons. He hasn't the variety from which the 
 customer can make the selections. The customer can see more things 
 that he wants and get a better choice, and when he has got a good 
 deal of money to spend he goes to the city. I live 185 miles from 
 Kansas City, and citizens of my town go down there and buy large 
 amounts of furniture, handsome clothing, etc., because they get a 
 better variety to select from, and we complain of that, those of us 
 who are interested in the community, but the railroad facilities en- 
 able them to do that, but there is no use for us to complain. We 
 
PARCEL POST. 609 
 
 are up against that proposition, and you can not help it; they are 
 going to do it. Now, the catalogues here — the parcel post did not 
 bring them and it will not take them away. The mail-order house 
 is one of the institutions in competition with the mercantile field. 
 These people have conceived the idea that if they can buy direct 
 from the manufacturer, or manufacture goods themselves and retail 
 them to the customer direct, without the expense of a middleman, 
 that they can make money by it, and there is a war between these 
 people and the middleman. That is the controversy before us now. 
 You do not want the Government to help these people against you, 
 and that is the contest here right over this table. We do not propose 
 to take any part in that controversy and we will let you work it out, 
 for that is not our fight, but if the people in this vicinity here want a 
 facility which they have not got and which the express companies 
 won't give them at a fair rate to patronize their local merchants, or 
 the merchants in adjacent community, or to buy something abroad 
 they can not get at home, and the Government can offer them a 
 facility by which that can be done without any inconvenience to itself 
 or without any loss, why shouldn't they do it ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, you are assuming that you ought not to enter 
 into a fight as yet, the fight that exists between the mail-order houses 
 and the retailers. Now, the minute you undertake to step in and 
 transport merchandise at less than the cost of transportation 
 
 Senator Bristow. We are not proposing to do that. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, the present cost is 12 cents, or something less, 
 isn't it? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Sixteen. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, that is the present charge. I am referring to 
 the actual cost. Nearly all of these things are proposed for less 
 charges than that ; some of. them for 8 cents a pound. Now, isn't 
 that putting the Government in the position of deliverying these 
 people goods for less than the cost of transportation? 
 
 The Chairman. We are giving an equal privilege to every citizen 
 in the United States, whatever might be done. 
 
 Mr. Corey. That is true, but the success of the retail dealer and 
 his problems 
 
 The Chairman. Depends on his transportation facilities. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Not upon small quantities, but only in getting in large 
 quantities, in putting those goods on his shelves and handing them 
 out to the people. 
 
 The Chairman. But if he has a cheaper rate already in existence, 
 the freight rate, where is he injured, by your contention? 
 
 Mr. Corey. The freight rate carries the goods at the present time, 
 because it does carry them cheaper. You propose in the parcel post 
 to make a lower rate than is already established, and, in many bills, 
 a rate which is not justified by the cost of the service. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, that, of course, is a different question. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a matter where the responsibility will be 
 solely with Congress, and after we determine as to what will be the 
 rate that the conditions alone justify from the business standpoint. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, let me suggest another condition that now 
 exists. A family at Jewel, Kans., has one of those catalogues, and 
 they see some things that they would like to have. The freight rate, 
 we will say, from Chicago, is $1.25—1 don't know what it is ; it might 
 
610 PARCEL POST. 
 
 be more and it might be less per hundred. Now, this family goes 
 around to some of their neighbors and suggests that they go in to- 
 gether and get up an order of 100 pounds and save on the freight 
 rate. That is what the catalogue people tell them to do; and this 
 fellow who sees something in here he wants that costs $1 and weighs 
 5 pounds, goes around in the neighborhood and gets together other 
 buyers to make up a package of 100 pounds and he sends for them. 
 Now, that is done a great deal. You know that ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bkistow. Now, if he could send for this 5 or 6 pound 
 package to Chicago and get it at a reasonable rate, do you suppose he 
 would go to the trouble of going around soliciting from these 
 people ? 
 
 The Chairman. What was the distance you stated from Chicago? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, it would be about 700 miles. 
 
 The Chairman. 742 miles ; the rate would be 67£ cents per hundred 
 pounds. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, it is actually more than that, because it is 
 54 cents in carload lots on some classes. 
 
 The Chairman. The rate from Chicago to Utica, N. Y.— 742 
 miles — is 67£ cents. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, it would be higher than that going west. 
 
 The Chairman. I am simply taking a 700-mile radius from 
 Chicago east. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, had this feature of that occurred to you? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes, sir. But just what prompts these people in mak- 
 ing their orders is, of course, largely a matter of conjecture with us. 
 It would undoubtedly tend to discourage mail buying if they had to 
 go around and get three or four people interested, or take the trouble 
 to make up an order. I know it is done, as you say, but it undoubt- 
 edly tends to discourage mail-order buying. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, don't you think, as a matter of fact, they 
 get to talking about this in the neighborhood, about how cheap it 
 is, and they pool together and agree to do this ? Now, that is done a 
 greal deal ; is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. That may be done, sometimes, but not so much, possibly 
 as you might think. I know that this is done more particularly in 
 the matter of soap clubs, but it does not follow that a large propor- 
 tion, or any great amount of sales is based on that sort of trading, 
 although I am not prepared to say how much. Some communities 
 undoubtedly might be carrying that on to a large extent, while others 
 would be doing it in a smaller way. I am speaking of our own. 
 I don't know much of that class of business. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The mail-order house does not use the mails 
 very largely in shipping it's goods, does it ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. In small packages; some. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But the great bulk of their sales is not sent by 
 mail? 
 
 Mr. Corey. No ; I take it that it is not. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Don't you think that ordering by mail is a 
 growing tendency, due to the attractive advertisements and the cheap- 
 ness of printing — the illustrating facilities that merchants now have. 
 It is a growing method of transacting business, is it not? 
 
PARCEL POST. 611 
 
 Mr. Cokey. It is a growing method of transacting business be- 
 cause it is safe to misrepresent things by mail. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, regardless of why, it is growing and has 
 been for several years? 
 
 Mr. Coeey. I would say yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Growing very rapidly. As a result of the ten- 
 dency of the times, nearly all the large merchants are establishing 
 mail order departments, are they not? 
 
 Mr. Corey. "Well, I do not know whether they are doing that more 
 than they have been, but a good many of them have the department. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, a good many merchants who did not do 
 it 10 years ago have the department established now ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. I am not prepared to say how large an increase there 
 has been recently. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I know that from my own experience. I know a 
 great many merchants in my town are doing this in order to meet 
 competition. Don't you think they have to do this to meet the com- 
 petition to a greater or less degree ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. You mean establish a mail-order department? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes; they use the mails to solicit, as they are 
 doing now. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Not so far as the small merchant is concerned. He 
 will go out of business before he can ever establish a successful mail- 
 order department. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is, the crossroads merchant would ; but the 
 county-seat town — how about the merchant there ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. I don't mean the crossroad merchant, but I mean the 
 merchant in the town of 5,000 inhabitants and under. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, of course, you know more about that than 
 I. But what I have in mind now is this tendency which you gentle- 
 men are struggling against, which you can not stop, because it is 
 developing, and there is no way to prevent it any more than you could 
 stop the rural delivery. I know the country merchants were all op- 
 posed to the rural delivery, the county-seat merchants, but you could 
 not deny a facility of that kind when the public thinks it is for the 
 good of the great mass of the people. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Did the country merchants oppose the rural delivery? 
 
 Senator Bristow. A great many of them did ; yes. 
 
 Mr. Corey. I never knew that before. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I had many bitter complaints against it when T 
 was in the Post Office Department, both by mail and personally, be- 
 cause they said the farmer and his wife did not come to town. I 
 remember one prominent merchant once said to me that he did not 
 see the farmer's wife any more with her eggs and chickens ; they did 
 not come up and pile them upon his counter like they used to, and he 
 did not get at them and sell them the good's he used to ; they wanted 
 to see the old lady there with her basket of stuff. Now, they come in 
 in the buggy and order what they want and take it out. Now, you 
 gentlemen are struggling against this tendency of mercantile affairs 
 and don't you think it would be better to begin to use some of these 
 modern facilities instead of trying to kick against them, take ad- 
 vantage of them yourself and get into this modern way of doing 
 business and help it along and get some of the good out of it. 
 
612 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Coeey. Well, you speak of our making progress as merchants? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes ; in taking advantage of this facility which 
 these people have discovered and developed, and meet them on their 
 own grounds. 
 
 Mr. Corey. The local merchant can never take advantage and sell 
 goods by mail. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You think he can not ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. No, sir ; he will have to go out of business if his success 
 depends on that one thing. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose he had a transportation freight rate 
 on all the stuff that goes by mail that was one-half less than what 
 these people had to pay, would not that give him an advantage that 
 would help him to meet it ? 
 
 Mr. Cokey. Well, it would help him just in so far as the transpor- 
 tation adds to the cost or is a part of the cost. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It would be that much of a help ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why would not the zone system be just that 
 much of a help to him in competing with these people ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. Now, in regard to the zone system, while I have never 
 thought of it very much, my opinion would be this: That the effect 
 would be to centralize the business in the larger towns within that 
 zone. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, every town has its own zone. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, I understand that, but the larger towns would, 
 reach in that zone all the smaller towns, and would make competition 
 harder than ever before ; that would be my opinion. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I will take as an illustration Kansas City, be- 
 cause I am familiar with it. Kansas City would have a right to use 
 the figures I used awhile ago; I simply used them at random, for I 
 have not given it thought enough to know what the figures ought to 
 be. Suppose the rate would be 4 cents a pound for 50 miles. Ot- 
 tawa, Kans., is 54 miles from Kansas City; Ottawa, Kans., would 
 have the same rate from Kansas City as from Kansas City to Ot- 
 tawa. Olathe is 28 miles from Kansas City ; that town would have a 
 radius of 28 miles, and from Kansas City the radius would take in 
 Olathe and Ottawa. The zone system that I have in mind would 
 start from every post office in the United States and the radius would 
 be within 50 miles of that post office; every postmaster would have 
 his map furnished by the department showing what towns came 
 within this radii. Everybody has the same opportunity, and the 
 big city hasn't any advantage over the country merchant, so far as 
 this goes. 
 
 Mr. Corey. That is true. It was the other effect of it which I was 
 thinking about. So far as the quality is concerned, according to your 
 rate, it would be based on fairness. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is, he would have the same opportunity, 
 and the great city would not have any advantage over him, because it 
 does not get any better rate, as it does now from the express com- 
 panies. 
 
 Mr. Corey. There may be some difference in express rates, and I 
 suppose there is. 
 
PARCEL POST. 613 
 
 Senator Bristow. It has always been cheaper to send from the 
 great centers than from two dissected communities out in the country 
 somewhere. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose the express companies voluntarily reduce 
 their charges 50 per cent. Would that work any hardship on the 
 interests that you represent ? Would you object to it ? 
 
 Mr. Corey. I do not think I would object to it. The express com- 
 panies are a different proposition ; they are a private business insti- 
 tution, and their charges are based upon the costs of the service. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Based upon the amount of profit they can get? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Pardon me ; they are based upon what they can 
 get. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Excuse me; I will stand corrected on that. What I 
 mean is, they are based on distance. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Not altogether on distance; they are based on 
 how much they can collect. 
 
 The Chairman. They are based on the competition that exists, 
 really. 
 
 Mr. Corey. They have no competition, have they? 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I thought that you claimed that this fourth- 
 class mail matter was a competitor to them, to the scope of this 
 activity. 
 
 Mr. Corey. Well, I am taking in the larger scope. Fourth-class 
 mail matter undoubtedly, to a certain extent, is a competitor. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you anything further, Mr. Corey? 
 
 Mr. Corey. No; that is all I have. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you for your views. 
 
STATEMENT OF P. T. RATHBUN. 
 
 The Chairman. It will be necessary that you be sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age, residence, and 
 present occupation? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. Thirty-four years of age. I reside at Springfield, 
 Ohio. I am a retail vehicle dealer and secretary of the Tristate 
 Vehicle and Implement Dealers' Association. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that the only official position you hold in any 
 organization ? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. No, sir ; I am a director of the National Federation 
 of Vehicle and Implement Dealers' Association. That is an associa- 
 tion of the various State associations combined into the> national 
 federation. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you appear here in the capacity of secretary 
 and a director? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. Yes, sir; primarily a director. 
 
 The Chairman. Kindly explain for the benefit of the committee 
 the scope of your association, its membership, and the States it 
 represents. 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. The national federation is made up of the 15 con- 
 stituent associations and includes New York State, Ohio, Indiana, 
 Kentucky, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Colorado, Ne- 
 braska, Kansas, Iowa, Missouri, Oklahoma, Indian Territory, and 
 Texas. 
 
 The Chairman. The membership of the association is what ? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. Our membership is about fifty-one hundred retail 
 implement and vehicle dealers. A firm constitutes a membership 
 rather than an individual. 
 
 The Chairman. The volume of business the association member- 
 ship conducts in a year is what? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. It would be only a guess. I do not know the aver- 
 age volume. I presume, however, our average would be about 
 $30,000 per firm. 
 
 The Chairman. And the nature of your business ? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. The retailing of vehicles and implements are allied 
 lines. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you make any shipments by fourth-class mail? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. Very little, either in receiving or in sending out. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you in favor or against an enlarged scope of 
 our present parcel post as existing under the fourth-class mail pro- 
 vision ? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. We are against an extension of the parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your reasons? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. Yes ; I have outlined them in writing, Mr. Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. Are they voluminous? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. Not very. 
 6l4 
 
PARCEL POST. 615 
 
 The Chairman. Kindly present them to the committee. 
 Mr. Rathbun. May I present, before I go into that, a resolution 
 adopted by our association on parcel post and penny postage? 
 The Chairman. Certainly. 
 Mr. Rathbun. The resolution is as follows: 
 
 Resolution Peotestinq Against Parcel Post Adopted by the National Fed- 
 eration of Retail Implement and Vehicle Dealers' Associations, Chi- 
 cago, October 19, 1911. 
 
 We favor the appointment by Congress of a nonpartisan commission whose 
 duty shall be to investigate, both at home and abroad, the question of parcel 
 post, and the deferring of all such legislation until such committee shall have 
 ample time to act and report. 
 
 We believe that a parcel post, if established, will be detrimental, primarily to 
 all retail merchants, and generally to the commercial welfare of the Nation. 
 
 Resotjtion Regarding Express Rates Adopted by The National Federation 
 Retail Implement and Vehicle Dealers' Associations, Chicago, October 
 19, 1911. 
 
 Express rates are not only exorbitant, but they are arbitrary and unrea- 
 sonable. Why a hundred pounds of perishable fruit should be carried an equal 
 distance for practically the same charge as an unbreakable 5-pound casting is 
 beyond our conception. 
 
 We urge such legislation, both State and national, as will make all express 
 companies common carriers, thus bringing them under the jurisdiction of the 
 State railroad and warehouse commissions and amenable to the interstate-com- 
 merce law. 
 
 Resolution Favoring Penny Postage Adopted by The National Federation 
 Retail Implement and Vehicle Dealers' Associations, Chicago, October 
 19, 1911. 
 
 We favor penny postage and believe the present postal laws are unjust, in so 
 far as the high rate is maintained on first-class matter and the lower classes 
 are carried at such rates as are a loss to the postal department. 
 
 We believe the postal department should be self-sustaining, but that each 
 classification should sustain itself. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is, you protest against the Government 
 providing you with the very relief that you are complaining about — 
 that is, the express companies? 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. Yes, sir, Senator ; we deny the relief we can expect 
 under a parcel post is the relief we are asking for, under an 11-pound 
 parcel post. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You use the first-class mail very extensively, and 
 you would rather have 1-cent postage than 2-cent postage. 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. Exactly. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If you were publishing a newspaper, would you 
 want a different kind of a resolution ? 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. I do not believe as a principle that it would be 
 
 right. 
 
 The Chairman. The original resolution that you have presented 
 there for the appointment of a commission, how did that come be- 
 fore your organization? 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. After a discussion and report by the committee on 
 resolutions it was adopted by the convention. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any knowledge of similar resolutions 
 which have been adopted by any other business or commercial or- 
 ganizations in the country ? 
 
616 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. We had information that others were thinking 
 along the same lines. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you state for the information of the commit- 
 tee what other organization had the same idea under consideration? 
 In other words, was this a cooperation between the various business 
 organizations over the country, this form of a resolution ? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. Not to any considerable extent that I know of. I 
 do know that it had been mentioned to me by a member of the Na- 
 tional League of Associations. 
 
 Senator Bryan. What is the National League of Associations? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. Mr. Moon represented them here yesterday. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I was not here when he began his testimony. 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. It is a jobbers' association. 
 
 The Chairman. It emanated from there ? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. The first suggestion came to me from there. I do 
 not know that they were the parent of it. 
 
 The Chairman. You cooperated with them? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. Yes ; our interests are the same, in a manner. 
 
 We are opposed to extension of parcel post, so as to include general 
 mail cariage of packages to generally proposed limit of 11 pounds at 
 flat rate, because 
 
 Senator Bristow. You say it has been under consideration? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. We have been talking somewhat about a general 
 parcel post. 
 
 Mr. Bristow. How did you get the idea we were going to have a 
 general parcel post at a flat rate ? Ha? any member of the committee 
 indicated that? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. That is provided in some of the proposed bills. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, any amount of bills might be introduced. 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. It was provided in the Sulzer bill. I can give you 
 that definitely, if you want it. Of course I would not know what 
 bills were before your committee. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I wanted to indicate here that the flat rate for 
 transportation of merchandise is not what the members of this com- 
 mittee, at least, have had in mind. 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. Of course we do not know what the committee or 
 the members of this committee would have in mind, but I know this 
 was in the mind of a great many. 
 
 We are opposed to extension of parcel post, so as to include general 
 mail carriage of packages to the generally proposed limit of 11 
 pounds at flat rate, because this can not be made self-sustaining un- 
 less the Government makes monopoly of such carriage. To demon- 
 strate: Presume the average rate is made to cover distance from 
 Washington to St. Louis, 906 miles, at, 50 cents. It then follows that 
 the express carriers will make a lower rate so long as there is profit 
 accruing. If this rate can be less than that of the Government then 
 the express companies secure the business and the Government is left 
 to handle the parcels that go beyond and which must be at a loss, as 
 the rate contemplated averages to St. Louis, and the Government re- 
 ceives none of the profitable intermediate business. Should the Gov- 
 ernment lower the rate, then, on all parcels handled beyond this point 
 the loss is greater and it has secured none of the profitable business; 
 hence, deficit is greater. If the rate were raised then the profitable 
 
PAECEL POST. 617 
 
 field for the express carrier is but widened and all the business done 
 by the Government must still be at a loss. 
 
 There could be but one remedy for this loss, and that would be gov- 
 ernmental monopoly on carriage of all packages within respective 
 weight, similar to that now enjoyed in first-class mail. Let us note 
 what this would mean. If general parcel post were in effect and 
 Government monopoly reserved on such mailable packages the pur- 
 chaser could not visit the store and purchase shoes, clothing, or other 
 necessities within the limit of mailable matter and either himself 
 employ some party to deliver the goods or have the merchant do so, 
 but his purchase, if mailable, must come through the mails, other- 
 wise there would be no monopoly by the Government, and if no 
 monopoly there must be a loss on parcels delivered by mail, as hereto- 
 fore shown. 
 
 If parcel carriage by mail by the Government be operated at a 
 loss, then it is in effect a subsidy to the interests employing it, and 
 those who support some other department must pay for that service 
 a price that supplies excess to be applied to this deficit, just as to- 
 day the patrons of first-class mail are taxed in excess of its cost to 
 supply patrons of second-class service by the United States mails at 
 less than one-ninth of its cost. We deny that as a principle this is 
 right, and certainly do not want to see it extended to merchandise 
 carriers. 
 
 Proponents of parcel post assert that it will not injure local mer- 
 chants, and the rate of 8 cents per pound has been many times sug- 
 gested. Postal records show that present fourth -class service costs 
 the Government in excess of 12 cents per pound. These same pro- 
 ponents profess a belief that if 8 cents per pound is made the rate 
 that by reason of increased business the department will soon be self- 
 sustaining. We submit, then, that the assertion that local merchants 
 will not be injured is wrong, as the only way for the service to be- 
 come self-sustaining is to increase the number of packages, and this 
 at the expense of the local dealer. 
 
 We are opposed to a general parcel post because it will congest 
 factories in centers of cheap power and abundant labor, in all lines 
 that can be distributed by this service, as distance-carrying charge 
 has been eliminated and in cost of transportation is just as near the 
 market no matter where the factory. This would seriously affect 
 commercial and financial institutions now established. 
 
 We object because mail buying does not give opportunity for im- 
 provement or introduction of new devices. Lay minds do not readily 
 understand technical description or even illustration, and personal 
 investigation and contact is necessary to introduction to new and labor 
 saving devices. To illustrate: No selling organizations depending 
 upon the mail have introduced new articles to the user, but have 
 depended upon an already established demand which they simply try 
 to suppty. No such catalogue featured or even included a manure 
 spreader, gas engine, gang plow, automatic rake, or any other labor sav- 
 ing, profitable implement for the farmer until the actual demand had 
 been created by the retailer by personal contact and demonstration. 
 Such devices can not be successfully _ introduced by mail-selling 
 methods. Then why encourage stagnation and discourage improve- 
 ment by building up mail buying which does not create demand and, 
 therefore, can not encourage invention. 
 
618 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The demand for parcel post has been stimulated by excessive express 
 charges, if not, in fact, conceived by this condition, and has been 
 voiced most energetically by subsidized mail class and is not original 
 with the farmer. We submit that the injustice of excessive express 
 rates is now undergoing proper investigation and in fair prospect of 
 correction, and that, in any event, the retailers are not the class which 
 suffers by revolution of distributive process. If the Government 
 finds itself inadequate to cope with the express situation which we, 
 of course, we do not believe possible 
 
 We object to a local rural parcel post, first, because it invalidates 
 present arrangements for local rural service and substitutes a higher 
 rate. Under present arrangements a patron on a rural route can 
 request his carrier to bring merchandise and deliver it to him, and 
 this service at a price agreed upon between the carrier and patron. 
 
 Some inquiry discloses that about 10 cents seems usual for this 
 service where any charge is made. 
 
 The Chairman. What information have you to make that state- 
 ment? 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. Partly on the statement of the local carriers. We 
 have 10 at home, and I have made inquiry of them. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Why should not the Government get that which 
 the rural carrier receives, instead of the carrier himself? 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. If you will allow me to finish this I will be glad to 
 make this statement. 
 
 If an 11-pound rural parcel-post law were enacted and the present 
 arrangement continue, applying to packages in excess of 11 pounds, 
 then a merchant had better wrap up a brick in 10-pound packages of 
 nails and let the farmer be served at the mutually agreed rate as now. 
 If arrangements permitting the carrier to transport merchandise to his 
 patrons beyond the mailable limit were revoked, then we submit that 
 the farmer must pay a higher cost of delivery than now where his 
 patronage is confined to his local merchant. If it is the farmer on 
 the rural route that the parcel post is desired to serve, does this in- 
 creased cost seem fair ? 
 
 The answer to your question would be that the fee goes to the rural 
 carrier. 
 
 Senator Beistow. But the rural carrier is an employee of the Gov- 
 ernment and should be exclusively employed on the Government's 
 business. 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. Not exclusively ; he does not put his entire time on 
 the route. He should be exclusively the Government's employee for 
 the time he is on the route, however. 
 
 Senator Beistow. There are no other Government employees who 
 are employed as they are, who are permitted to take side jobs while 
 engaged on their official business. 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. We maintain that if there is a farmer he is desir- 
 ing to serve, the farmer is better served. The Government has a 
 deficit which it must provide for and the rural carrier has none; 
 therefore his service would be cheaper to the farmer than the Gov- 
 ernment's service. 
 
 Senator Beistow. We are supposed to be looking out for the inter- 
 ests of the Government. 
 
 The Chairman. Under such an arrangement would not the Gov- 
 ernment lose the amount that the mail carrier now receives? 
 
PARCEL POST. 619 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. Yes, sir; as the arrangement now is, but I found 
 that in half of the packages carried there was no charge made, but at 
 the end of the year the patron of the rural route said, " Here is a 
 bushel of potatoes," or "A chicken for Christmas." 
 
 Senator Beistow. Now, that is a beautiful system for Government 
 employees. Would you permit one of your employees to have side- 
 lines that way? Is it a business proposition? 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. It is not a business proposition; but the position 
 that has been advanced so often on parcel post is to serve the farmer, 
 to enable him to get his goods cheaper from town. I submit this, 
 that it is not in accord with the proposition to make a special rate. 
 The service will be no better, but it will cost him more money than 
 now, arguing from that point of view. 
 
 Local parcel post, if established, is but a start and many advo- 
 cates, including the Postmaster General, have expressed the belief 
 that if so established it is destined to develop into a general parcel 
 post. Complicated conditions will arise wherein the people would 
 never be satisfied with the restricted or local parcel post ; to illustrate : 
 
 From Springfield, Ohio, there are some 10 rural mail routes. East 
 of Springfield, some 10 miles, south of Vienna, with two rural 
 routes; southeast of Springfield, 12 miles, is Plattsburg, with two 
 or mayhap three rural routes: Midway between Springfield and 
 South Vienna is Wiseman, which village was formerly a post office. 
 By Rural Free Delivery Service the post office was discontinued. 
 The residents of the village are served now in part by rural free de- 
 livery from Springfield and part from Plattsburg, and those but a 
 rifle shot east by South Vienna. The South Vienna mails are dis- 
 tributed by Springfield post office. Now imagine conditions of a 
 special sale in Springfield, the larger city, of merchandise, gener- 
 ally desired by Wiseman residents. Should only the residents of 
 western Wiseman be served by the parcel post because the southern 
 part of the village is reached by Plattsburg carrier ? Can the patrons 
 of the Springfield route not purchase merchandise and have deliv- 
 ery from Plattsburg, if desired, because not on that route, when 
 neighbors within a stone's throw have that privilege? We submit 
 that this is but typical and the people will not be satisfied with any 
 measure of parcel delivery save a general one, and we have enumer- 
 ated some of .our reasons for opposing a general parcel post. 
 
 Senator Beistow. If the people should want it, haven't they a 
 right to have it? 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. That is our contention, that they will never be 
 satisfied with anything short of a general parcel post, 
 
 Senator Beistow. Suppose the people of this country want a gen- 
 eral parcel post. Why shouldn't they have it? It is their country. 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. Yes ; we contend that it is not for the best interests 
 of the country. 
 
 The Chairman. You don't think that the people can do their 
 own thinking? 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. It is not always what the people want that is best 
 for them. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You think it is not? 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. No, sir; the majority are not always right. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Well, I guess I am the only man here who will 
 agree with you on that proposition. 
 
620 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. Again, the local rural parcel post seems to have as 
 its purpose the protection of the home merchant as against mail-sell- 
 ing organizations in the larger cities, and is by some supporters urged 
 for this reason. We submit this is impracticable, as the mail sellers 
 can easily arrange to take advantage of the local delivery from any 
 point when it seems justified. 
 
 We object because in the popular conception of rural free delivery 
 of mail at its inauguration, merchandise carriage was not included 
 as within its scope. The enormous deficit borne of rural free delivery 
 of mail has been generally sanctioned and justified because of the 
 educational value and thus the development of our country, its citi- 
 zenship and resources. It was never intended as a money-making 
 scheme, nor seriously considered as likely to be self-sustaining. It 
 might be very pleasant for the Post Office Department, if enabled 
 by delivery of merchandise through the mail, on rural free delivery 
 routes to just make the department self-sustaining. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you concur in that? 
 
 Mr. Rathbone. Yes, sir. 
 
 It was never intended as a money-making scheme, nor seriously 
 considered as likely to be self-sustaining. It might be very pleasant 
 for the Post Office Department if it were enabled to deliver merchan- 
 dise through the mail, on rural free delivery routes to just make the 
 department self-sustaining by arranging that all carriers leave the 
 office with maximum load, only and always. This, we believe im- 
 practicable. The 100 routes where carrier is now handling maxi- 
 mum load, will be the first one of the routes to have parcels carried 
 in any considerable number, and those carriers now nearest maxi- 
 mum load, the next. The last to receive maximum load will be the 
 carrier now having lightest load, and by that time, the ones origi- 
 nally affected, will have outgrown their capacity and shorter routes 
 or more carriers the result. 
 
 We object because it is fundamentally wrong, and the Govern- 
 ment should have as much justice and reason to engage in manufac- 
 turing or raising of products and distributing these at a loss, that 
 cost to the consumer be lessened. All feed has advanced materially 
 in price within the past ten years. It costs practically double to- 
 day to maintain horse delivery service by merchants in the cities 
 than it did ten years ago. If the Government will raise hay and 
 other feed and distribute in the cities at less than cost, delivery ex- 
 penses can be reduced and lower prices made, and this to us is just 
 as reasonable as that the Government undertake parcel delivery at 
 less than cost (and we do not believe any system self-sustaining can 
 be inaugurated short of Government monopoly as outlined) that one 
 class of patrons have an advantage granted them. 
 
 The Chairman. Referring to your resolution adopted by your 
 association at Chicago on October 19, 1911, " We favor the appoint- 
 ment by Congress of a nonpartisan commission whose duty shall be 
 to investigate both at home and abroad the question of parcel post, 
 and the deferring of all such legislation until such committee shall 
 have ample time to act and report." If the suggestion was carried 
 out by Congress, you would be perfectly satisfied as to the findings 
 of that commission, and if it was in favor of the adoption of a spe- 
 cific enlargement of our present parcel-post system under the fourth- 
 
PARCEL POST. 621 
 
 class matter, you would cooperate in your educational work over the 
 country and feel that it would be beneficial ? 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. If we could have demonstrated to us by a fair com- 
 mittee on investigation that our alarms were groundless — if the con- 
 ditions in Europe were what they are here, we would say adopt a 
 parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the purpose of your resolution is the avoid- 
 ance of action by Congress. 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. Until such time as we can act intelligently and 
 with the full facts before us. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you think Congress, in its customary man- 
 ner of selection of committees and appointments, has not the in- 
 telligence in selecting committees that they would in selecting or 
 electing a special commission for this special work. 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. There is no reflection at all, Mr. Chairman, upon 
 the committee, but the committee has not the facilities unless they 
 study abroad, and we have brought to us many divergent reports 
 with reference to the conditions there. Canada is the most pros- 
 perous colony belonging to England ; England has a parcel post and 
 Canada has not and does not want any extension of their present 
 system. I can quote to you this afternoon from the Iron and Trade 
 Bulletin of Toronto; they are more familiar with conditions at 
 home than we are with conditions at home, and they do not want it; 
 that is, the commercial and industrial interests. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The same interests that do not want it here ? 
 
 The Chairman. Senator Bristow, do you want to ask any ques- 
 tions ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. I agree with many of the statements. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I stated awhile ago that I would agree with 
 you that sometimes a majority of the people made mistakes, and I 
 reckoned that I was about the only one on the committee who would 
 agree with that statement. One thing that leads me to take that 
 position is that the farmer has been educated to believe, outside of 
 independent thinking on their part, a parcel post would be a great 
 panacea for all their evils. On the contrary, it seems to me that 
 these organizations have also adopted resolutions in opposition to it, 
 not doing their own thinking, but allowing their leaders and other 
 organizations to do their thinking for them. I believe, then, if a 
 majority of the firms to-day could be given the opportunity to say 
 whether they wanted to put in a parcel post without limit as to 
 weight many of them would agree it was a good thing ; you gentle- 
 men, on the other hand, take the position that the parcel post 
 ought not to be increased in its scope, and some of you might take 
 the position that the present system ought to be abolished. In my 
 opinion, the majority of both organizations would be mistaken. You 
 spoke of the express companies. Would you favor the abolition of 
 express companies? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. No, sir. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Why not? 
 
 Mr. Rathbtjn. We would have no substitute unless it would be 
 the governmental carriage entirely, I am certainly not in favor of 
 governmental monopoly on carriage, aside from the first-class mail. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Is it not a fact that the railroad companies fur- 
 nish all the equipment for the express companies ? 
 
622 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. Oh, if you mean that question to ask if I would be 
 in favor of the railroads assuming simply the useless function of 
 the express company, I would say, yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Wouldn't you be in favor of wiping out the 
 express companies and requiring the common carriers of this country 
 to do the business they are now required and chartered to do ? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. Yes, sir; I would be in favor of eliminating that 
 service. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If the Government could do it better, why not? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. Yes ; if the Government can own the railroads. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If the Government can do this particular thing 
 better, why shouldn't they ? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. We deny they can do it better. They have never 
 been able to cope with the express companies for the small-mail 
 business. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What mail business ? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. Well, second-class matter, for instance; that is, 
 carried by the express companies at lower prices than the Govern- 
 ment can carry and distribute it for from the larger centers. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is in line with your argument that we have 
 the flat rate. Second-class matter is very heavy, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. Yes, sir; presumably. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is the only reason you think the express 
 companies carry second-class mail matter more cheaply than the 
 Government can? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. No, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Because they can take the short haul and give 
 the Government the long hauls ? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. Yes, sir ; they go into it so far as the profit permits 
 them to go, but necessarily their equipment is cheaper than the Gov- 
 ernment's. They do not pay the standard of salaries and there are 
 not as many executive officers ; their equipment is cheaper than these 
 people of the United States would permit the Government to main- 
 tain, just as their delivery service in our city is cheaper than your 
 rural-route service, man for man and service for service. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is largely because the rural-route man does 
 not have much to do. He goes out with a little handful of mail to 
 deliver just because it is mail, and we want to give him more to do. 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. He is paid a wage much more than the express 
 driver. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, if the Government can not compete suc- 
 cessfully with the express company and a parcel-post system on the 
 zone basis is put in, and the Government has no monopoly, then what 
 injury is the country going to suffer? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. The zone system is one which we have not given a 
 great deal of attention to, because it had not been suggested to us 
 as being under consideration. The only point I brought down here 
 is that the American people will never be satisfied until they have 
 a general system. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You believe that is the reason why we should not 
 use the present parcel-post system up to its limit of efficiency. I 
 mean by that, to require the rural carriers to be self-sustaining. 
 
PAECEL POST. 623 
 
 Mr. Rathbtjn. It is the scheme of distribution that is impracti- 
 cable. You can not, by any manner of plan, say to this man, who 
 is carrying half a load, "We will furnish you another half of a 
 load," because that is not within your power to do so. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I understand you to make the contention that each 
 of these classes of mail matter should be self-sustaining. 
 
 Mr. Rathbtjn. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bryan. And you pointed out that at present the carriers 
 receive, in addition to their salaries, fees or charges from their 
 patrons. What objection would you have to the Government itself 
 receiving that pay and prohibiting the carriers from receiving it? 
 Don't you think it would be a good business proposition for the 
 Government to receive the benefit of its equipment ? 
 
 Mr. Rathbtjn. If it can be done within the province of the mail 
 department, I should say yes, if it can be done to disseminate educa- 
 tion. As I understand now, I haven't definite information to cite 
 this ; it was brought out in discussion in Congress that the reason the 
 weight limit was raised to 4 pounds was in order that samples 
 might be sent which were educational in their nature ; and it was not 
 originally intended as a merchandise-carrying arrangement, but, as 
 I say, in order that samples might be sent because of its educational 
 feature. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, it is here, and it is used as a mercantile 
 propostion? 
 
 Mr. Rathbtjn. Just the same as if we have any parcel post, Mr. 
 Senator, it will be here and be used, and you will never in the world 
 be able, even if you find it erroneous to move it, because there will be 
 enough people who will be benefited by it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Enough people who may even think they are 
 benefited by it, who want to retain it? 
 
 Mr. Rathbtjn. Yes; just as the rural people think about the rural 
 delivery service. You can not abandon that if you want to. 
 
 Senator Bryan. We may find that it would be impossible to go 
 into the carriage of packages of very great weight or very large size, 
 under its authority to establish port offices and post roads. Do you 
 believe that we ought to hesitate to take advantage of the present 
 equipment simply because some people, or a large number of people, 
 fear that some subsequent Congress may go beyond the proper lines 
 of constitutional authority? 
 
 Mr. Rathbtjn. I would answer, no, sir ; providing that that extra 
 service is within the original scope of the Post Office Department, by 
 reason of its formation. 
 
 Senator Bryan. The opposition of the organizations you represent 
 was brought about, wasn't it, by reason of the fact that you sup- 
 posed that there would be a flat rate, and that the Government would 
 do this regardless of expense in order to gratify what was an appar- 
 ent desire on a part of a majority of the people? 
 
 Mr. Rathbtjn. That was not the inception of our opposition, al- 
 though it is one point upon which we are very bitter. We do not 
 consider it right that they should establish that unless it can be 
 self-sustaining, in any event. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Do you see the same objections to establishing a 
 parcel post under the zone system, as outlined to you, or in your 
 
624 PARCEL POST. 
 
 presence here this morning, by Senator Bristow, that your organiza- 
 tion had to the scheme that you understood was in contemplation? 
 
 Mr. Kathbun. I do not see as many objections as I see in the other. 
 There are some objections to any system, but there are not the ob- 
 jections to the zone system that there are to the flat rate for a general 
 parcel post. 
 
 Senator Bryan. The objection to raising the limit to 11 pounds 
 is not so much in that plan of itself and standing alone, as it is to 
 your fear that it is only an entering wedge, and would mean that 
 larger packages in size and weight would subsequently be carried? 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. The facts are, aside from that, true. It is true that 
 the majority of profitable mail order goods can be shipped in an 
 11 -pound package, because it is a class of merchandise that is 
 hard to distinguish values, and it bears a larger percentage of profit 
 with reference to cost. I have reference especially to wearing ma- 
 terial of any kind, to boots, to shoes, to the products of the industries 
 of weaving of any kind, silk, cotton, woolen goods, where values are 
 easily hidden and where proportionate to its cost it will bear a larger 
 percentage of profit than do the bulky articles. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, there are some ladies in a town in the 
 West whom I know of, who send to some place in Kentucky, a town 
 of probably 1,000 people, to a dress-making establishment to have 
 their dresses made. They get them by express, having never seen 
 the dressmaker, nor the dress, until they put it on. I know they do 
 that year after year, because they say they can get better clothes more 
 cheaply, better made, and well made. Now, do you think if they can 
 send that by mail that it will increase that kind of business in the 
 country ? 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. Why, I should judge it would, increase it if they 
 can get a cheaper cost of delivery. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And you think that is detrimental. You think 
 these ladies ought not to do that? 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. No, sir;I would not say that. If they can get a 
 better service they ought to do it. The service determines why a 
 man should be in business and whether he should be in business, the 
 service he renders to his customers. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, you say the profitable kind of business 
 would come within the 11 pounds? 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. A very considerable share of it: yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, here is a lot of furniture. Don't they sell 
 lots of furniture to these people? 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. I presume they do or they would not list it so 
 heavily. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They have all kinds of it. I had a man tell me 
 the other day when I was figuring on furniture that I ought to get it 
 from Sears, Roebuck & Co. 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. If that question has not been demonstrated, we can 
 demonstrate to you that we can sell you the same goods cheaper than 
 they can. I know I can do it in an article like buggies. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you have any competition with the mail-order 
 houses in your business? 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. Yes, sir; some. We are not fearful that our line 
 of business would be injured, save in a general way. 
 
PAKCEL POST. 625 
 
 The Chaieman. In your distribution of profit; in other words, the 
 more profits of the individuals, the more there will be divided among 
 the community, and as a consequence, for your business ? 
 
 Mr. Kathbun. The better it is for the entire country. 
 
 The Chairman. Except your own particular profit and those you 
 want as large as possible. 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. We have, you understand, no quarrels with those 
 people. We anticipate their competiton on entering a business life. 
 We have two kinds of business, the mail-order business and the com- 
 peting merchants. They all serve a purpose or they would not be in 
 existence, but we do not want any advantage given to the mail-order 
 houses at the cost of our own business. 
 
 The Chaieman. We can not understand where there is an advan- 
 tage in giving an increased opportunity to everybody. 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. As for myself, I haven't that opportunity, for I can 
 not sell goods by mail. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Why? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. I am dependent entirely On local touch. May I 
 illustrate that by concrete examples ? 
 
 Senator Beistow. Why, surely. 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. I know of a retail merchant who had a Sears, Eoe- 
 buck & Co.'s buggy up on his upper floor. A farmer came in and 
 said, " I can not buy your goods, they are too high priced." The 
 merchant said, " Give me the same money that you pay Sears, Eoe- 
 buck & Co. and I will sell you that very same buggy and you will 
 not have to wait for it." The merchant further said, " I have it in 
 the house." The farmer said, " Let me see it." " Oh, no ; you can 
 not see it because you do not see it when you buy of Sears, Eoebuck 
 & Co." Welh he did not sell the buggy. 
 
 The Chairman. You claim, and I think the majority of the gentle- 
 men who have appeared before the committee claim, that you can 
 compete successfully with mail-order houses and deliver goods to 
 your customers cheaper than they can. 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. Yes, sir; quality the same. 
 
 The Chaieman. I do not see where, then, if you increase the trans- 
 portation facilities, or where by increasing the scope of the present 
 fourth-class mail by raising the limit to 11 pounds and decreasing 
 the postage rate you change conditions to such an extent that it is 
 going to affect you or the conditions that already exist. 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. It would affect no one except the dealers who would 
 do business under this 11-pound rate. I maintain in my argument — 
 and if it is a fact this statement is applicable, but if those arguments 
 are not well founded it is not applicable — that the United States can 
 not make a flat rate and make it self-sustaining. 
 
 The Chaieman. Well, that is a matter to be worked out. I think 
 we are all in accord that it is ill-advisable for the Government to 
 operate at a loss where it can operate successfully and serve the gen- 
 eral welfare at a profit. That is a matter of business investigation 
 or determination on the part of the branches of the Government. 
 This paper that you have read for the benefit of the committee, has 
 that been submitted to the members of your organization ? 
 
 Mr. Eathbun. No, sir ; it has not. 
 
 The Chaieman. Those are your own views? 
 
626 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. They are the gathered- together views of our several 
 conventions. I have been secretary for six years, director in the 
 national federation for six years, retailer for 11 years, and I have, 
 always attended the conventions. 
 
 The Chairman. Are they the compilations of any set of resolu- 
 tions your conventions have adopted ? 
 
 Mr. Rathbun. Yes, sir ; I would also refer you to the parcels-post 
 hearing before the House committee, which has the resolutions from 
 each of the associations, which resolutions are the basis of this paper. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee is very much obliged to you, Mr. 
 Rathbun, for your views. 
 
 (Thereupon, at 1.20 o'clock p. m., the committee took a recess 
 until 3.30 o'clock p. m.) 
 
AFTER RECESS. 
 
 The subcommittee reconvened at 3.30 o'clock p. m. 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), Senator Joseph 
 L. Bristow, Senator Nathan P. Bryan, and Senator Frank O. Briggs. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF ME. W. J. PILKINGTON, OF DES MOINES, IOWA. 
 
 (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age, residence, and 
 present occupation? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Age, 43 years; I reside in Des Moines, Iowa; and 
 my occupation is that of publisher and editor of the national maga- 
 zine for retail merchants — the Merchants' Trade Journal. 
 
 The Chairman. Published where? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. At Des Moines, Iowa ; that is the headquarters. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that the official organ of the retail merchants 
 of the United States? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. The official organ of nothing. The facts are, 
 Senator, I do not appear here as representing anyone but myself. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Pilkington, have you a statement prepared, 
 and would you prefer to submit that to the committee and then 
 answer any questions that the members of the committee may desire 
 to ask? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I may say that this that I have here written 
 contains some matters that I would prefer to read, rather than to take 
 chances of making errors in it by quoting it orally, and, if you have 
 no objection, I will read it. I may say that this is really a copy of 
 a letter that I have mailed to a number of the Members of Congress, 
 and the wording of it you will understand from that. 
 
 (Mr. Pilkington then read the letter, as follows:) 
 
 Novembee 27, 1911. 
 
 The question of a parcel post or no parcel post, is one that has, for the 
 last year or two, been discussed in magazines, newspapers, in the halls of 
 Congress and in other places where people have read, and where they have 
 convened for the discussion of public questions. 
 
 I hardly believe, if you know the past work of the Merchants' Trade Journal, 
 that you would feel we were taking undue credit when we say that probably 
 the Journal has given more time and study to this question than :my othfer 
 publication, person, or persons. 
 
 It is for the purpose of putting before you my views on this question that I am 
 writing you this long personal letter. I realize that in the past the opposition 
 to parcel post has been charged against commercial interests, and especially 
 against the retail merchants, for the reason that it was contended that if the 
 so-called parcel post did become a law, that it would injure the business of 
 the average retail merchant. I am willing to admit all this. And yet there 
 is a higher plane on which to consider this important question. No man who 
 discusses a question from a selfish standpoint is entitled to consideration. 
 
 If the retail merchants of the United States have no other reason for opposing 
 a parcel post other than it might hurt their business, I am willing to confess 
 to you that in this confession their position weakens. 
 
 627 
 
628 PARCEL POST. 
 
 I want to discuss this matter in this letter from a slandpoint that may be 
 entirely new to you. To begin with, every sane, sensible man admits that the 
 seeing of merchandise, coupled with the ability of the salesman, causes all of 
 us to buy more merchandise than we would buy if one or both of these forces 
 were taken out of consideration. It is said that 90 per cent of the fresh fruit 
 sold in the United States is sold because we see it and not because we delib- 
 erately go to market for the purpose of buying fruit. 
 
 Every man who has had any experience at all in the retail business, or any 
 man who has never been in the retail business but who has had his eyes 
 open as he passes among people, knows that the display of merchandise in 
 the merchant's display windows has a wonderful effect upon the amount of 
 business done. 
 
 It is said of one of the large department stores in Chicago that they have 
 made the statement that their corner show window, which, by the way, is the 
 smallest show window in the store, is worth $10,000 a month to them. 
 
 The merchants of this country have spent thousands and hundreds of thou- 
 sands, and even millions of dollars in the display and arrangement of their 
 merchandise. All this bears out the suggestion that I have already made, 
 namely, we are all tempted to buy because of this influence. 
 
 Now, my dear sir, if the Government or any other influence enacts a law, or 
 brings anything into the lives of the people of this country causing them to 
 stay away from their local markets, making it possible for them to buy their 
 supplies without visiting their local towns and markets, this influence or this 
 law of necessity at once begins to decrease the consumption of merchandise. 
 
 Suppose that on the first day of any month it was made necessary that all of 
 us, every one of us, should buy all our supplies of every kind by mail or by 
 telephone. You know and I know that this one thing would, in the course of 
 90 days, put factories out of business ; it would throw thousands of employees 
 out of work ; it would stop freight trains ; it would touch this and that and 
 influence every single phase of our American life. 
 
 If the extreme of this condition will produce such results, any degree of the 
 extreme will produce a like degree of results. 
 
 Every man who conducts a grocery store would prefer that his lady customers 
 come to the store, see the display, and look over the goods than to have them 
 order by telephone. When the person goes to the phone to order goods they 
 simply order the things they feel they must have, because there is nothing in 
 their minds to suggest their ordering some new line of goods, some new style, 
 or something of this nature. Whenever people, either by mail or telephone, 
 order their merchandise they only buy what necessity teaches them they need 
 for immediate use. On the other hand, when any of us go to market we see 
 things we did not think we needed, we see new styles, new colors, new arrange- 
 ments, which cause us to branch out in our buying. 
 
 Some one may say that having a parcel post would not of necessity keep the 
 farmer from visiting the local town, but the man who makes such a statement 
 either admits in the statement that the parcel post would not be patronized 
 or he knows that it will keep people away from their local towns. If it is not 
 patronized, we have no use for it, and if it is patronized it will produce the 
 results I have outlined. 
 
 There is only one reason why the American farmer is to-day receiving the 
 price he is for what he raises, and this reason is because the people of the 
 United States have the money with which to buy what he has raised. 
 
 If keeping the farmers from our local towns in any degree affects the quantity 
 of goods bought, it is going to affect every single phase of life, and in the end 
 it will come right back and hurt the farmer — the very man the parcels post is 
 supposed to benefit. This Government can not afford to enact any law or take 
 one step that will iu any way make it possible for our American farmers to 
 further ostracize and separate themselves from their local markets and the 
 people around them. 
 
 Go where you will and into whatever neighborhood you will, and when you 
 find a family where the husband, the wife, and the children do not visit the 
 local towns oftener than once in three or four weeks, you will find a family 
 below the average life scale of the American citizen. The sticking to the farm 
 and being by oneself away from social conditions has a tendency to keep one 
 down instead of helping one up. Such a condition does not promote education 
 among the young ; it does not promote church relationships ; it does not promote 
 the finer instincts in our beings, which cause us to want to have better homes, 
 better furniture, better everything. 
 
PARCEL POST. 629 
 
 So far you may feel that the contention I am standing for has in it only the 
 selfish motive, but let me go further and say that the man who buys and 
 wears up-to-date clothing because of having gone into a store and having it 
 explained to him is a better man for wearing up-to-date clothing. The family 
 who visits the local market and who picks out, by comparison of colors and 
 figures, the rugs for their floors is a better family for the community and the 
 State and the Government. 
 
 The lady who visits her local markets and picks out for herself the up-to- 
 date merchandise she wants for her use is a better citizen and a better mother. 
 The man who rides in an automobile is a better man for his country than 
 the man who rides in a two-wheeled cart. These things all tend to raise us 
 up in the scale of life. 
 
 It would be better for our country if by some means we could force every 
 farmer to visit his local town at least once a week, or probably twice a week, 
 than it would be if we enact a parcel post and make it possible for him to get 
 his supplies without going to market only when the spell takes him. 
 
 You will understand that these things I am speaking of apply with just as 
 much force to what is called a local parcel post as It does to the general parcel 
 post. I am contending that when we can cause our farmers to visit their local 
 markets we broaden their minds, we build them up in the scale of life, and we 
 make better men and better citizens of them. 
 
 I want to go further and show you that this same influence not only 
 touches the farmer and his wife, but it touches the very lives of their children. 
 If you have ever lived in the country, or are familiar with farming communi- 
 ties, you will not have to draw on your imagination to witness a scene where 
 the farmer is going to town for supplies or possibly some repairs for machinery. 
 Here is Jimmy and Johnny and Mary standing about, and the first question 
 they ask of their father is if they can get into the buggy or automobile and 
 go to town. It is an event in their lives when these things take place. They 
 get into the vehicle and go to town, and, as they are passing up the streets of 
 their local town, probably they see the children there coming and going to the 
 local school at a time of the year when the children on the farm do not have the 
 advantage of a school. 
 
 Who knows how many boys and girls have, from just such an experience as 
 this, received the inspiration or incentive that has led them to demand a better 
 education? Then, again, those same children, when they visit the local town, 
 see the well-kept lawns; they see things that tend to cause them to want these 
 things, these well-arranged homes, etc., on the farms where they live. 
 
 No man can tell how many lives have been touched by this very thing, and 
 no Member of Congress dares take a chance in bringing into the lives of the 
 American people any force or power or law that would further tend to keep 
 these children on the farms or further tend to keep the farmer and his wife 
 tied down to their drudgery. 
 
 My dear sir, these are things that have to do with the very lives of our 
 people. They touch not only the present, but they touch the future, and I beg 
 of you as a Member of our National Congress that before you take a position 
 in favor of a parcel post, if you are so disposed, that you think these things 
 over seriously. 
 
 There are some other phases of this question that I would like to bring to 
 your attention. I presume that I have heard and read as many arguments 
 favorable to the parcel post as any man in the United States. And pretty 
 nearly every time when such an argument is made it is suggested that a parcel 
 post is needed at a busy time of the year, so that if the farmer should break 
 his machinery, for instance, his self-binder, he could telephone to town and 
 have the repairs come out by mail, and thereby save the time of a man and a 
 team. 
 
 My dear sir, the man who makes this argument does not know the farmer's 
 life. The facts are that whenever the harvester breaks down there are from 
 two to six horses idle. There is ample provision for reaching town without 
 a horse losing one single second, besides ninety-nine out of a hundred men 
 who drive the harvester have nothing to do until the repairs arrive. 
 
 Then, again, it would be a pretty spectacle if a harvester should break after 
 the mail carrier has left the local town for the farmer to telephone and 'wait 
 until the carrier comes the next day for his repairs. 
 
 My dear sir, things are not done this way on the farm to-day. Immediately 
 when there is a breakdown, either a team is hitched to the buggy or the auto- 
 mobile is used, and the farmer is in town, with very few exceptions, inside of 
 
630 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 an hour, and he is back in the same given time. On a large majority of our 
 farms a driving team is kept for use when it is 'necessary to. go to town, and 
 the team that works does not take one single step more because of the 
 breakdown. 
 
 Further than this, in our middle western country in many localities at least 
 60 per cent of our farmers own their own automobiles, which makes is possible 
 for them to reach town and get back before the mail carrier can hitch up his 
 old plug. 
 
 Going further, I think I am safe in saying that on 50 per cent of our farms 
 there is an idle man, and many times it is the farmer himself who is inde- 
 pendent enough that he does not have to work. 
 
 The whole trouble with those who are taking a stand for a parcel post is 
 that they do not understand fully the conditions they are trying to change. I 
 well remember when Mr. Meyer was Postmaster General, he and the writer 
 carried on a lengthy correspondence on this subject, and one of the questions 
 Mr. Meyer asked was, whether or not I did not think the local merchant ought 
 to deliver merchandise to the farmers in the country without extra charge 
 the same as he delivers it in the local town. I said to Mr. Meyer in reply to 
 this letter that this one question showed to me that he was absolutely ignorant of 
 conditions outside of possibly a few exceptionally congested districts in the 
 East. As I said to you in the beginning of this letter, I do not believe in dis- 
 cussing these questions from the selfish standpoint, I believe that this thing 
 has to do with the lives of every one of us, and we ought to move very slowly. 
 
 It is true that we hear the argument that because European countries have 
 a parcel post we ought to have it. Such argument is folderol. We are not 
 European people; we do not live as the European people live. God only knows 
 we hope we never will live as many of these people live. We are a different 
 class entirely, so far as our desires and environments and wishes are concerned. 
 We spend a hundred dollars where they don't spend a dollar. Our farmers have 
 their own carriages, their own automobiles, they are the princes of the country. 
 
 Then, again, we hear it said that the farmer wants a parcel post and there- 
 fore he ought to have it. Well, the most of us at one time or another have 
 wanted something but found out later that it was the very thing we should not 
 have had. And if it was not for the prejudices that have been worked up be- 
 tween the farmer and the local merchant, the farmer would not be demanding 
 a parcel post. As proof of this developing of prejudice between the farmer and 
 the local merchant I refer you to almost any of our agricultural publications 
 which are filled with advertising matter of concerns selling direct to the farmer. 
 These people in their advertisements are always doing the thing I refer to. 
 The editors of these publications editorially assist their advertisers by doing 
 the same thing. 
 
 The funny phase of this discussion is that those who are favorable to the 
 parcel post are continually telling the retail merchants that it would be a boon 
 to them. When the facts are the merchants do not want a parcel post. They 
 live among the people of their community and have studied these questions. 
 They certainly ought to know better than a man who knows nothing of these 
 conditions how certain things will influence the people of their community. 
 
 Please remember that I contend that we ought to get away from selfish 
 motives in discussing this question, and if there is only one class to protect 
 at a loss to other classes, then we have no ground for our contention. But 
 if, on the other hand, there is a danger of us doing something that we would 
 find later on should not have been done, we will find it mighty hard to undo it. 
 
 I sincerely hope that Congress will be slow in taking action. I feel that 
 every Member of Congress, both in the House and Senate, ought to know rural 
 conditions, they ought to make a study of these conditions before they vote 
 either way. I am satisfied that any man who will conscientiously investigate 
 some things, and go to the bottom of them, will finally arrive at the conclusion 
 that we should not have a parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. How large a circulation has your paper ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Between forty-five and forty-six thousand at this 
 time. 
 
 The Chairman. What territory does it cover? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. The entire United States. Now, in this hearing, 
 so far as I have heard it this week, this (Question has been injected 
 into it, or rather possibly more by suggestion than by word, that the 
 
PABCEL POST. 631 
 
 retail interests represented here were selfish in their motives and were 
 overestimating the danger that might come to their business if the 
 parcel post were extended. I want to quote from men who by their 
 success in business have proven the value of their business judgment, 
 and I am going to quote from men on the other side of the question, 
 men who are favorable to a parcel post, as to what this thing would 
 do to the retail merchants in the smaller towns. This committee has 
 heard the other side. 
 
 The Chairman. If you will kindly specify in your remarks from 
 whom you intend quoting. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yesterday we had Mr. Norvell, a man who has 
 succeeded in business life, and it seems to me that this committee 
 can not do anything else but give some attention to the opinions of 
 such men as Mr. Norvell. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, we heard him, did we not ? It is the desire 
 of the committee to hear everyone who thinks he has anything inter- 
 esting to advance. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. But he only expressed an opinion and could not 
 come before this committee with concrete examples on either side; 
 neither could anyone else. I feel that these men ought to be listened 
 to. Mr. Henry Siegel has written me letters in response to inquiries 
 that I have made of him on the subject. Mr. Siegel, president of 
 the Simpson-Crawford Co., New York City, which company is one 
 of the largest department stores in that city, says : 
 
 I consider that a parcel post would not injure the large retailer. 
 
 I am heartily in favor of a parcel post, taking into consideration the large 
 mercantile houses that handle and ship extensively throughout the country. 
 The enormous saving this would be to the public is apparent. 
 
 H. E. Free, president of the Great Department Store, Lewiston, 
 Me., says : 
 
 We are in favor of the parcel-post law, and primarily we think it would be 
 a help to the retailer who is enterprising enough to establish a mail-order 
 department in his store. 
 
 The Chairman. Are these replies to an inquiry of yours? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What was the nature of your inquiry ? In order 
 that the committee may get the full benefit, they should know what 
 your specific questions were. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. The letters simply asked them whether they were 
 opposed to or in favor of a parcel post, and why. 
 
 The Chairman. Did you designate what kind of a parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Ptlkington. No, sir ; I did not. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, does not your evidence leave to the imagina- 
 tion entirely what kind of a parcel post is under consideration? 
 Wherein is "this of any value ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. For this reason: We have had here, both by 
 answers from questions of members of this committee and others, 
 questions that involved pretty nearly all types of parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. Not in the questions, no. The matter that has 
 been under consideration before the committee has been the enlarge- 
 ment of the present scope of the parcel post from 4 pounds to 11 
 pounds at a reduced postage. In your inquiry to these people that 
 you are quoting did you make any such limitation as that ? 
 
632 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. I have no objection to their being put into the 
 record, but I do not see where they are of any value. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. It shows the opinion of men on the opposite side 
 of this question as to what the result would be to the mechants in 
 the smaller towns. Mr. J. F. Ehrich, of Ehrich Bros., New York 
 City, says : 
 
 I am strongly in favor of a parcel post. It would, of course, be a great 
 asspt to my business. I am confident that the department stores would find 
 that this would get them a mail-order business they never had before. The 
 only possible objection of a practical nature that might be agitated against the 
 measure is that it would possibly injure the small business, especially in the 
 small towus and villages. 
 
 Mr. E. G. Preston, treasurer of the R. H. White Co.. Boston, says: 
 
 The parcel post is inevitable. It would help the large distributor and bring 
 the conveniences of the city to the door of the rural customer. 
 
 Mr. P. H. McGraw, of the James A. Houston Co., Boston, says: 
 
 Although our mail-order business is not extensive, we expect that this branch 
 of the business would increase if the proposed parcel-post law was enacted by 
 our next Congress. It will certainly increase the business of all mail-order 
 houses, as well as other big retail stores in the big cities, and at the same time 
 prove somewhat detrimental to the rural dealers, who will have to increase 
 iheir varieties of stock. 
 
 I wish to call particular attention to the latter part of his statement, 
 where he says that they will have to increase their variety of stock. 
 This is from a man who has proven so successful in life that his 
 business judgment is good, and yet we have statements on the other 
 side of the question that if we had a parcel post the retail merchant 
 would decrease his stock and carry a smaller stock. And, by the 
 way, I do not know but what the chairman in his article in the last 
 edition of the Saturday Evening Post said something along the 
 same line. 
 
 The Chairman. That is my opinion. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. J. B. Shea, of the Joseph Home Co., Pittsburgh, 
 Pa., says : 
 
 It is our positive opinion that the passage of a parcel-post law will injure the 
 retailers. We do not mean the retailer of the class such as ourselves, but the 
 small retailer in the smaller towns. We are very sure that the opportunities 
 for purchase from the catalogue houses when obtained with the parcel-post 
 law will very greatly swell the sales of the catalogue houses. 
 
 Mr. J. H. Priddasi, secretary of the Henry Siegel Co., Boston, says: 
 
 She can then send their orders to the big retail stores in the city and be sup- 
 plied at almost if not the same price paid by the city customer. There would 
 be an avalanche of catalogues cast upon the public by every big store in the 
 cities. 
 
 I simply quote from that, as I suggested a moment ago, that we 
 may get the opinion on both sides of this question of successful men, 
 men who want it and tell why they want it. There is one thing that 
 is certain, in my mind, if it helps the large department stores to 
 increase their business from outside of their own cities, it certainly 
 would of necessity take the business away from the local merchants 
 and thereby be an injury. 
 
 Senator Bryan. But are you not of the opinion that those men are 
 considering a parcel-post system which would have only one rate, 
 a flat rate, over the country ? 
 
PARCEL POST. 633 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I think so, Senator ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. For argument, then, this statement would not 
 apply to the zone system, would it? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. No; I do not think so. By the way, I do not 
 mind saying to the committee that my personal opinion would be 
 that if we are to have a parcel post that the zone system is the only 
 practicable one; and yet, of course, the thing that I suggested at the 
 beginning would apply to any kind of a parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. Is your main or fundamental objection that of the 
 invasion on the part of the Government of private enterprise ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And you are personally opposed, strongly op- 
 posed, to a Governmental monopoly of the postal operations other 
 than the first-class mail matter ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I think I would be ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. I was wondering whether you had gone into that 
 phase of the subject extensively. 
 
 Mr. Phkington. Yes ; I have. 
 
 The Chairman. You do not believe in governmental ownership; 
 you believe that means paternalism and dry rot? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I was just thinking while we were adjourned 
 that if this committee should recommend a bill and Congress should 
 enact it into a law, increasing the weight limit to 11 pounds on parcel 
 post, I can not see, on the same line of reasoning, why it can not be 
 increased next year to 20 pounds. The principle applied is the same 
 clear through. Now, there is another matter; we speak of mail. 
 Now, as I look at it, that word " mail " does not mean letters. It 
 could just as well mean a thrashing machine as a letter, so far as it 
 is applied to the working of the governmental departments. If we 
 increase our mail facilities to carry packages of 11 pounds, I can not 
 see why we can not, with the same reasoning, increase the mail until 
 the Government is really in the merchandise-carrying business in 
 earnest. 
 
 The Chairman. There is much force in that position. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I can not see why there is not. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I suggest this limitation to you, that there is a 
 difference between the carriage of packages that is incidental to the 
 carriage of mail and the carriage of packages that is essentially a 
 carriage business disassociated from the carriage of the mails. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. It seems to me, Senator, that the line is pretty 
 finely drawn there. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I do not think so. 
 
 The Chairman. It is simply a question of the position on the 
 part of the legislative branch of our Government as to the desira- 
 bility of the enlargement of the scope of a piece of machinery now 
 in existence. There is no difference between 4 pounds and 11 pounds, 
 or 11 pounds and 20 pounds, other than the question of practicability 
 and desirability. Those are the points that our committee here want 
 to determine, based upon the different viewpoints of representatives 
 of the American people. That is all it is. 
 
 Mr. Phkington. It seems to me, Senator, that the mere statement 
 of enlarging this department — of the carrying department of the 
 Government — does not cover the question. We must look at this 
 thing, it seems to me, in the light of what the effect will be. 
 21845— vol 3—12 4 
 
634 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. That is what we are endeavoring to do. That is 
 why you gentlemen are appearing before us, in order to give us the 
 benefit of your individual views and the benefit of public opinion as 
 represented by you in the organizations that you came here to repre- 
 sent in some instances. We are very glad to receive your views as a 
 person who has devoted time and attention to the study of this ques- 
 tion, although you do not appear, as you stated, in a representative 
 capacity for any organization. It is our desire to do what is for the 
 best interest of the country as a whole. We have no selfish motive 
 at all in any way, shape, or form, and no direct interest to be sub- 
 served, but we are held responsible by the people, and rightly so, for 
 our action. We are trying to go to work in an intelligent way. It 
 is first a process of ascertainment, then a study, then constructive 
 work, then conclusions, then a submission of those conclusions to 
 Congress and then congressional action. It is just the same system 
 that is adopted in all big business organizations. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. There is another phase of this matter that I 
 want to have a little to say on. Since yesterday morning it has been 
 suggested that the question of the mail order house did not and should 
 not enter into this hearing and into the consideration here. Now 
 I can not agree with any one taking that position. 
 
 The Chairman. AVho made such a suggestion? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Well now, I could not say, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you mean that one of the committee made 
 such a suggestion? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I think so; I do not remember just the wording 
 of it, but I think the printed report of the hearing will show that 
 condition. 
 
 The Chairman. I have no recollection of that, but what bearing 
 has that on the matter? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. In this respect ? if any person will go into our 
 farming communities and make an investigation for himself without 
 saying what the information is wanted for, he will be convinced in 
 half an hour's time that those two propositions can not be separated. 
 
 The Chairman. What two propositions? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. The question of the mail order house and the 
 parcel post. And now I have gone out in the country day after 
 day and ridden among the farmers and they did not know who I was ; 
 to find out what the conditions really were. My experience is that 
 in the minds of the consuming public that that mail order house and 
 the parcel post is intimately associated. Now, I have been keeping 
 a little record in travel ; n<x on trains. Whenever I have had an 
 opportunity I have talked with farmers that I have met on the 
 trains. My record shows that out of 44 farmers with whom I have 
 talked and who were patrons of the so-called mail order houses, 38 
 of that number expressed themselves that whenever a parcel post 
 was given to them, that they would extend their purchases to the 
 mail order houses farther than they ever had done before. 
 
 The Chairman. Did they specify how the 44 received their goods 
 from the mail order houses ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Is not that an important feature? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I do not think so. 
 
 The Chairman. It seems to me very much so. 
 
PAKCBL POST. 635 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I can not see where that applies. 
 
 The Chairman. If they assembled and shipped by freight, and 
 availed themselves of a freight rate, they certainly would not pay 
 twice the same rate for the same service if they could get it for one- 
 half the cost. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. The minute Congress enacts a parcel-post law 
 and it goes into effect we are going to see a flood of mail-order busi- 
 ness in this country, and it is my candid opinion that it will bring 
 about a panic in commercial circles. 
 
 The Chairman. So you base your conclusions on conversations 
 with 44 people out of 92,000,000 people ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes; in that respect. The 44 people were peo- 
 ple met by accident, and it seems to me that it is a pretty 
 good criterion. Now, in addition to that, as I suggested I think in 
 the printed letter, if one will read our agricultural publications he 
 can not help but feel that it has been a system of education to bring 
 about the asking of a parcel post on the part of the farming com- 
 munity. 
 
 The Chairman. Why have not the opponents counteracted that and 
 put the agricultural publications right by showing where it would be 
 an injury instead of a benefit? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. If you have been out and attended any of that 
 kind of work you have discovered how difficult it is. In the United 
 States to-day there is the severest tension of feeling between the re- 
 tail merchants and the farmers. The prejudice of our farmers 
 against our local merchants is something that to-day is alarming to 
 every man who gives the question a study. 
 
 The Chairman. All over the country, generally? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. I would like to have your reasons for making that 
 assertion. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I have learned it by having my own traveling 
 men go out in the country, so far as they can, or meet the farmer in 
 town and talk with him. I have done that sometimes myself in 
 several different States — in Ohio, Indiana, Missouri, Kansas, and 
 Minnesota, and possibly some others. 
 
 The Chairman. And you found an intense prejudice against the 
 country merchant on the part of the farming community, and you 
 think that is universal over the United States ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. That is news to me. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. It may be, but it is a condition that exists. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What is the cause of it, do you know ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I believe there is one prime cause, and that has 
 come principally through our agricultural publications. Now, if 
 this committee has never taken the trouble to patiently go through 
 our agricultural publications and read the advertising matter in 
 there, and also watched the editorial columns, I am satisfied that it 
 will surprise you. It is estimated by the advertising agencies that 
 between 70 and 80 per cent of the advertising matter run in our 
 agricultural publications is what we would term a mail-order type; 
 that is, it is where the goods are sold without passing through the 
 hands of the retail merchants. I believe I am safe in saying that in 
 at least 40 per cent of those advertisements the statement is directly 
 
636 PARCEL POST. 
 
 made that they can save the consumer sums of money under what 
 the retail merchants ask for the same goods. That absolutely makes 
 the statement ridiculous to a man who is in a position to know. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Who makes these statements? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. What we would term the " direct-to-consumer " 
 advertisers. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Would you explain that a little more fully, so 
 that anyone who was not familiar with the matter could understand ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Last week in speaking before a State convention 
 I spoke upon the question of dishonest advertisements and used some 
 illustrations from a publication that was referred to here yesterday- 
 Wallace's Farmer, published at Des Moines. One of the items was 
 from a concern known as the Galloway Co., located at Waterloo, 
 Iowa, manufacturers of farming implements. One advertisement 
 was for a gasoline engine. In the body of the advertisement there 
 was nothing said about the implement dealer at all, but down at the 
 bottom in a little bracketed place outside it said, 
 
 This gasoline engine will be sold you cheaper than any other engine bought in 
 any other place on earth. 
 
 Now I will leave it to this committee if that is not dishonest and 
 disreputable and should not be allowed. The statement brands itself 
 as false on its face. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The advertisements in the daily papers here that 
 the local merchants get out are of the same character. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Do you know, Senator, that to-day in many of 
 the better class of departmental stores of our country they absolutely 
 will not allow their advertising department to make a comparative 
 price? 
 
 Senator Bryan. But the inference is there just the same. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I think not, Senator. 
 
 Senator Bryan. That they are getting a bargain. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. But they do not allow a comparison of prices, 
 not of their own goods. 
 
 Senator Bryan. But the purpose in both instances is to lead the 
 purchaser or the public to buy. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Certainly. 
 
 Senator Bryan. And whether he mentions the price at which he 
 was selling before, or simply puts it out as a great bargain, the result 
 in the mind of the public is about the same, is it not? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. No. I do not think that when you tell a delib- 
 erate falsehood that it is the same as 
 
 Senator Bryan. Is there any difference in telling a deliberate false- 
 hood and making a statement that is defective ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Let me give you an example. I am sure that you 
 will admit that there is a difference here. Suppose that I say in an 
 advertisement that this suit of clothes that I have on is made of all 
 wool and that it is worth $35 or $40, whatever the price may be. 
 Now, would it not be different if I said the same thing about this suit 
 of clothes, but said it was worth $60, and we were willing to sell it 
 for $40, when we never had it on sale at that price ? 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose it was represented that there was 50 per 
 cent of wool in that suit and there was not but 20 per cent ? 
 
PAECEL POST. 637 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. The fellow ought to go to the penitentiary. 
 
 The Chairman. You have raised an objection to dishonest adver- 
 tisements. What is your remedy ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. That is a subject that I have been considerably 
 interested in. I believe this remedy would work : Two or three years 
 ago, when Mr. Hull represented my district in the House, he intro- 
 duced for me a bill in the House known as a " labeling bill," which 
 provided that every piece of goods manufactured must bear a label, 
 put there by the manufacturer, stating who the manufacturer was, 
 where he was located, and exactly what the ingredients of that piece 
 of goods were. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, did you study the problem extensively 
 enough to come to a conclusion in your own mind that that was abso- 
 lutely practicable and could be accomplished? 
 
 _ Mr. Pilkington. I believe it can. It would be difficult in some 
 lines. 
 
 The Chairman. Where will your greatest difficulty be? Would 
 you extend that to all manufactured products ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Every product ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Every product? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You would put the price on, too ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Why would not the price be a still further pro- 
 tection to the consumer? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. For this reason, that goods manufactured in 
 Boston could not be sold cheaper 50 miles from Boston 
 
 The Chairman. Prices free on board at point of manufacture? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. You would have to put the retail prices on. 
 
 The Chairman. No; put your wholesale prices on. You are try- 
 ing to protect the American people, if I catch your idea correctly, 
 from dishonest advertisements or from being " buncoed." Now, why 
 do you not help them to the extent of giving them the information 
 as to just where the profits are ? The manufacturer has to stamp his 
 price according to your plan, as I understand it, the material and 
 component parts of the goods, where they are manufactured, etc., 
 on the articles. Why is he not entitled to the information as to what 
 it costs the producer at the factory? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I am willing' to say this, that I believe the time 
 will come when possibly that can be done, but I do not think you 
 could do it at this time, because the prejudice between the consumer 
 and the retailer is too great. And again, the consumer does not 
 know what it costs to do business and can not appreciate those things. 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, you do not want the consumer to 
 know what the retailer is making. Is that it? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I doubt whether it would be advisable at the 
 present time. 
 
 The Chairman. But you do want the consumer to know what he 
 is doing? ; 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes, sir ; I think he is entitled to know. 
 
 The Chairman. But not what he has to pay for it? 
 
638 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes ; what he has to pay for it, he will find that 
 out, of course. 
 
 The Chairman. The protection to the consumer in the way of in- 
 formation as to the component parts is altruistic and the informa- 
 tion to the consumer in the way of profits to the intermediary is sel- 
 fish, is it not? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes, sirj to a certain extent. I would not call 
 it selfish, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. We will call it self protection, then. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. -We all know that it costs a certain amount to 
 do business ; in some localities more, in some less. Competition would 
 take care of that, largely. 
 
 The Chairman. Would it not take care of the other? Is it not 
 much easier — I am seeking for information now and am not criti- 
 cising your suggestion— is it not much easier to give information as 
 to the cost free on board the factory of goods than it is to give 
 the information on the goods themselves as to the component parts? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. No, sir ; I do not think so. For instance, if I 
 go into a clothing store and buy a suit of clothes, and it is repre- 
 sented to me that this suit of clothes is absolutely all wool, I am enti- 
 tled to an all-wool suit of clothes. 
 
 The Chairman. I agree with you on that absolutely. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Now, as to what I want to pay for that, or what 
 I am asked to pay for it, that is not a question of deduction or fraud 
 like the other is, and I think I can show this committee that some of 
 the houses that have been mentioned here are doing that thing to-day. 
 
 The Chairman. What became of the Hull bill ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Nothing was done with it. It was not even 
 urged before the committee, for the reason that I was busy on other 
 matters and did not push it. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you give a skeleton of it? Did it contem- 
 plate legislation that would compel the manufacturer to designate on 
 each article the component parts of that article, the place of manu- 
 facture, the name of the manufacturer, etc. ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. My recollection is that the bill also included in 
 it a provision covering the misrepresentation in advertising matter. 
 
 The Chairman. What was the penalty feature of the bill ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I do not remember. 
 
 Senator Bryan. In what Congress was the bill introduced? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I do not remember. 
 
 Senator Bryan. In what year? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. The last year that Mr. Hull was in Congress. 
 I think about two years back, probably. With regard to the preju- 
 dice between the farmer and the retail merchant, as I said, the con- 
 dition is such to-day that the men who are studying the question are 
 alarmed over it — absolutely alarmed — and there is no doubt but 
 what the situation is such that it is dangerous. As I suggested, it 
 is my opinion that if this Congress should enact a parcel post, espe- 
 cially of a general nature, it would bring about a panic. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose they had the general qualification for it? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. We would overcome it to a certain extent. I 
 was a little surprised, Senator, to hear you say that you were sur- 
 prised that this prejudice existed. I want to refer to an expression 
 
PARCEL POST. 639 
 
 in your article in the last Saturday Evening Post that adds a little 
 to that feeling. On page 8 it says : 
 
 Third. A reduction in the rate of postage will necessarily cause a reduc- 
 tion m some of the express rates, so that while patrons of the post office will 
 be saving money as a result of the reduction in postage, the same benefit will 
 be enjoyed by the patrons of the express companies, and possibly to a much 
 larger extent. Fourth. The establishment of a parcels post will prevent any 
 unreasonable maintenance of prices by retailers, for the purchaser will always 
 be afforded a competitive market. Combinations among retailers to maintain 
 unreasonable prices will be impossible after the establishment of a parcels post 
 at low rates. 
 
 The Chairman. "Well, what is the criticism on it? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. My criticism is this: To my way of reading it 
 practically says we have unreasonable prices maintained by a com- 
 bination of merchants. 
 
 The Chairman. No ; it does not. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is true in many places. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I think possibly it is true, but it is this type of 
 expression, this suggestive way of putting it, that is just a system of 
 developing this prejudice. I do not think the Senator intended any 
 such thing in the article, but the consumer will feel that it is a pat on 
 his back. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Let me mention here a case I had last summer. 
 A gentleman came to me when I was in a town in a western State. 
 He was a merchant with whom I was acquainted. He said : 
 
 I have just had a proposition put up to me that I have turned down, and I 
 do not know whether I did the right thing or not. 
 
 He was worried about it. He said: 
 
 Fifty-seven merchants of this town have agreed on a scale of prices covering 
 some 300 articles that we have for sale, and they want me to go in and agree 
 not to go below those prices. I have refused to do it, because I do not like to 
 bind myself. 
 
 Well, he afterwards told me that he did not go in, but the rest of 
 them did, and that he had not fought the combination any, because 
 he did not care to. Now, is it not a fact that there are combina- 
 tions like that being organized everywhere? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Very few of them. It has been my privilege to 
 speak before more retail organizations and conventions, probably, 
 than any other man in the United States, and I have never yet been 
 in one of their meetings where that was suggested. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It naturally would not be a matter of publicity ; 
 it would be a secret combination. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I have been in their secret hearings ; that is what 
 I meant. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Combinations do exist. I have good information 
 that there are combinations even among the fruit venders and for- 
 eigners coming over here and opening little fruit stands, as to prices 
 and as to territory. 
 
 Senator Brtan. I would like to have you put into the record the 
 general purpose of a retail grocers' association in a city or town, a 
 retail merchants' association of any description. What is the object? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I do not know. I am not in a position to speak 
 on that. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You ought to know. 
 
640 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. You said you had been in intimate relationship 
 with them more than any other man in the United States. Conse- 
 quently, you are the best expert we have had. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. The greatest purpose they serve is in the develop- 
 ment of a better type of merchant, better type of business man. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Not the purpose they serve, but their object in 
 forming their associations ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. That is exactly it. 
 
 Senator Bryan. That is their object? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes, sir. For instance, I know of one place 
 where the wholesale grocery houses of a city of 80,000 contributed 
 to the financial support of the local retail grocers' association. They 
 make a statement that since the organization of the association their 
 percentage of loss among the retail grocers in that one city has de- 
 creased a little more than 75 per cent. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Do you not imagine that some of this prejudice 
 against the merchant is because in a good many instances they have 
 combined ? I do not know that that is true of retail merchants, and 
 that is the reason I asked you to state the object of their organiza- 
 tion ; but it is a well-known fact that wholesalers have formed trusts 
 or combinations. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. How well known is that fact, Senator? 
 
 Senator Bryan. So well known that some of them have been in- 
 dicted recently and compelled to dissolve, and farmers and others 
 keeping up with things happening in this country know that. Do 
 you not think that that perhaps is 6ne of the causes that they have 
 for the prejudice against the merchants? How are we going to 
 remedy that? There was an admitted case of violation of the anti- 
 trust law by the Southern Wholesale Grocers' Association, operating 
 in the South Atlantic and Gulf States. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I would say, Senator, that I have no sympathy 
 with that kind of an organization, nor have I any sympathy with the 
 retail merchants combining as Senator Bristow suggested. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Isn't that the reason the feeling exists against 
 them? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. No, sir; I think it is through our agricultural 
 publications and such unguarded remarks as the chairman's. 
 
 The Chairman. Not unguarded. 
 
 Senator Briggs. You gave an example of where a loss among the 
 grocers in a town was decreased 75 per cent. How was that done? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. They employed a paid secretary in that town. 
 He spends his time among their members, informing them how to 
 take care of their stock and how to keep food from accumulating and 
 spoiling and how to guard their collections and their credits. They 
 have a collection department in the organization to which the mem- 
 bers turn over their accounts for collection. 
 
 Senator Briggs. And run what is ordinarily called a black list? 
 They compare information. The good-paying consumers are given 
 credit and the bad-paying consumers are not? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I would not call it a black list. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Well, do not call it a black list ; call it a standing 
 of ratings of their consumers or customers. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I do not know exactly how they handle that in 
 this one organization. There is no black list. For instance, if you 
 
PARCEL, POST. 641 
 
 were in the grocery business in that city, and I should come to you 
 and want to open an account — I come in at 2 o'clock in the afternoon, 
 and you tell me to come in at 5 o'clock that afternoon and you will 
 let me know. You have in the meantime telephoned to the secre- 
 tary's office and gotten information as to where I have traded before 
 and what my reputation is for paying my bills. If it is good, he 
 telephones you and says I am all right. If the information is that 
 I have not paid my bills where I have traded last, of course you would 
 exercise your own judgment as to extending credit. I will say, fur- 
 ther, that for two years the secretary's office was in connection with 
 my own office, and I feel that I was quite intimate with the way they 
 conducted their business. 
 
 Senator Beistow. I had a friend in a western town who wanted to 
 build an opera house, and he had to have a bill of lumber aggregating 
 something over $10,000— from $10,000 to. $20,000— and they gave him 
 the prices in the town where he was. He thought the prices were 
 pretty high and went to another town about 40 miles away and told 
 a prominent lumber dealer that he wanted a figure on a bill of lumber. 
 The dealer said : " I can not sell it to you." He asked why, and the 
 dealer said : " Well, I do not seek any business down in that territory." 
 And he would not make him any price. The man went to five other 
 places and couldn't get any bids, and he had to go back home and pay 
 the price that was asked. Do you think that would have a tendency 
 to prejudice that man somewhat against the lumbering combination? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, another lumber dealer in another western 
 State that I traveled through a year ago was invited to go" into a 
 combination of 12 yards in a region there and agree on a list of prices 
 and pool the profits, and he declined to do it. At the end of two 
 years he was losing money — he had always made money prior to 
 that — and he concluded to sell out. He sold out because he was tired 
 of the fight. Do you think that would have a tendency to prejudice 
 him against combinations of that kind ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I presume that would do so about the same as 
 a member of the United States Senate being caught in a dishonest 
 act and brought up for trial would prejudice the people against the 
 rest of the Members of the Senate. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you not think the American people have the 
 highest regard for their Government in all its branches? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes, sir ; I think so. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose that a farmer goes to town and wants 
 a bill of lumber for his barn, a thousand dollars' worth approximately, 
 and he goes to half a dozen dealers in that town, and they all submit 
 figures, and none of the figures vary to exceed a dollar ; what do you 
 think that farmer thinks of the situation in that town ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. He thinks there is a combination. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, as a matter of fact, is there not a frantic 
 effort being made by interested parties to combine and organize the 
 entire mercantile business of this country, so as to guarantee profits 
 to those who are in ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. No, sir ; absolutely not. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You think that there is not? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I do. 
 
642 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. In the experience that you have had with business 
 organizations, which, as I understand you, in these particular 
 branches you believe to be more extensive than that of any other 
 man in the United States, is there a single 'instance where you have 
 known any of these gentlemen to enter into an arrangement together 
 to hold up prices or to make prices or divide prices. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Not one single instance has ever come under my 
 observation. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Still, you have no doubt that such combinations 
 exist, have you ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I would have to concede that in the light of the 
 statement that you made a few moments ago. I could not dispute it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is the experience that a great many men, 
 farmers and citizens, have related to me, and I believe they are 
 truthful; some of them are, I know. Does not that explain the 
 prejudice that you have been talking about? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I do not think so ; some per cent of it, of course, 
 but I do not think it is any comparison at all to the other phase of 
 the matter. 
 
 Senator Briggs. What was that other phase? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I made the statement that to-day there is an 
 extreme prejudice between the farmer and the local retail merchants, 
 and I said further that any man who would go out in the farming 
 communities and would investigate for himself would find it there 
 and that it is becoming alarming to the business interests of the 
 country, and that that condition has been brought about largely 
 because of the statements made in the advertising matter of the so- 
 called " direct to consumer " houses in the agricultural publications 
 and also in the editorial departments of the same publications. I 
 think any man who is at all familiar with conditions will find that 
 that condition is absolutely correct as stated. 
 
 Senator Briggs. You think the effects of those editorials and those 
 advertisements is sufficient in a community to turn the sentiment of 
 the consuming portion against their friends from whom they have 
 been buying for years and with whom they have constant business 
 relations ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes, sir; I do. I might say to this committee 
 that I am financially interested in two retail stores myself; in touch 
 with something like 40,000 or 50,000 retail merchants all the time. I 
 feel that I know what I am talking about on that subject. 
 
 Senator Briggs. "What have the retail merchants done to counteract 
 this? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Some of the retail merchants have tried to talk 
 to their farmer friends and overcome it in that way. In some places 
 there are clubs and they have invited the farmers to attend meetings 
 and let them see that there was nothing being done to rob the farmers. 
 A few local newspapers over the country have taken the matter up 
 and tried to overcome it, but so far it seems that there has been noth- 
 ing done that has stopped it. 
 
 The Chairman. Given a period of years, the consuming public is 
 going to buy where it can get the best article for the least money, is 
 it not? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. There is no doubt about that. 
 
PARCEL POST. 643- 
 
 The Chairman. So there is your remedy. It is simply a demon- 
 stration to your consumers that you can give them a better service 
 and more honest service than they can get elsewhere. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. That is easily said, but from the practical stand- 
 point of the retail merchant it is a pretty hard thing to do. 
 
 The Chairman. But is not that the ultimate solution, eliminating 
 entirely the question of enlarging the scope of the fourth-class mail 
 matter ? Is not that demonstration the ultimate solution ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And is it not up to these gentlemen to make their 
 demonstration ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes, but it seems to me that this committee ought 
 to consider very seriously before they adopt any parcel-post proposi- 
 tion that all these things have a bearing on it, and, for one, I do not 
 believe if that prejudice did not exist that we would hear one-tenth 
 about a parcel post that we are hearing. There is no question about 
 that at all. 
 
 The Chairman. What has been, from your study, the growth of 
 the sentiment favorable to it ? To the parcel-post question ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Since the magazines have taken it up so gen- 
 erally, it has been growing very rapidly. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, you are of the opinion that the dynamic 
 force from which this momentum for the enlargement of the scope 
 of the parcels post grows is the departmental stores ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. And the catalogue mail-order houses. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think it all radiates out from them? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes, sir. As an illustration, I am informed from 
 authority that I consider as good as my own word that the Saturday 
 Evening Post absolutely will not accept for publication an article 
 opposed to parcel post, and they have even turned down such articles 
 when written by their own contributors. 
 
 The Chairman. Did they do this to you ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. They did once, but that was my own writing. 
 This other case was where one of their own contributors was refused 
 admission to their pages. I have tried the same thing with other 
 magazines, and have been refused every time. I will excuse them 
 for not permitting my manuscript to appear, because it might not 
 have been of sufficiently high quality to appear, but I think prob- 
 ably that at some place in the United States there is some man who 
 could write good enough to appear in those pages. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you believe that there is an understanding be- 
 tween the mail-order houses and the magazines of the country to sup- 
 press any information opposed to the parcel post and favor any in- 
 formation or views in behalf of the extension of its present scope? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Now, Senator, you have asked a question there 
 that I am going to answer and include in the answer some other 
 things. I think I am safe in saying that any man who has made a 
 study of the distribution of merchandise for the last two or three 
 years will say that in his opinion there is an organized movement on 
 foot to-day to corner the distribution of merchandise in the United 
 States. Our so-called mail-order houses— for instance, this one of 
 Sears, Roebuck & Co., is financed in New York City. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you a list of the stockholders? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. No, sir. 
 
644 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Then upon what basis do you make such an as- 
 sertion ? 
 
 Mr. Phkington. By reading the financial publications of the coun- 
 try — the Wall Street Journal, for instance. I think any member of 
 this committee is perfectly familiar with conditions and knows that 
 when Sears, Eoebuck & Co. was organized their stock was handled 
 through a financial house in New York City. 
 
 The Chairman. But you say it is financed in New York City. I 
 can not conceive how you would feel justified in making such an as- 
 sertion without the absolute knowledge as to the ownership of the 
 stock of the company. 
 
 Senator Briggs. By financing you simply mean that they had em- 
 ployed a New York firm, either on commission or some other basis, to 
 market those securities? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes, sir; and it is generally conceded by people 
 who know anything about conditions, that the concern is practically 
 owned in New York to-day. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not know anything about it. My impression 
 was that it was owned in Chicago. It is quoted in the stocks there 
 and it must be on some stock board. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. It is both on the New York and Chicago stock 
 boards. It is quoted in both places each day. That would not be 
 any proof. 
 
 The Chairman. No ; but I can not understand how you could make 
 such an assertion as that it is financed in New York City without 
 absolute knowledge as to the ownership of the stock, the directors, 
 or means that they have for financing now. Their securities are all 
 placed, are they not? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes, sir ; I think so. I will state to you candidly 
 that I have not any proof of any of this. If the committee does not 
 want it to go into the record all right. 
 
 The Chairman. I would like it to go into the record as your own 
 personal views without proof. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I think I can connect it up and convict it on 
 circumstantial evidence. It is conceded by a great many men with 
 whom I have talked, financial men. I am satisfied in my own mind 
 to-day that practically all of our large department stores are owned 
 by New York interests, and practically all of our general magazines 
 are owned in the same place, practically all of our trade papers going 
 to retail merchants are owned in the same place, every single one of 
 them. 
 
 The Chairman. What do you mean by the same place, New York 
 City? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. New York interests. I think you will find that 
 Mr. Morgan himself is the chief stockholder in a great many of them. 
 Those magazines for the last two years have been doing everything 
 they possibly can to promote a parcel post. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Would you mind giving us the names of some 
 of the magazines that are owned that way ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Everybody's, The Woman's Home Companion; 
 in fact, I think to be sure we had better begin at the other end. 
 My understanding is that the Saturday Evening Post and the Ladies' 
 Home Journal are the only independent ones to-day. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Collier's is independent, is it not? 
 
PAECEL, POST. 645 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes. If I had had any idea that this thing would 
 have come up, I should have kept information that has come to me 
 from different sources along this line. 
 
 The Chairman. Every magazine in the United Staes you think 
 is controlled in New York City and by one or a few men, except the 
 Saturday Evening Post and Collier's? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Not every one ; we excepted some. 
 
 The Chairman. What besides the Saturday Evening Post and 
 Collier's? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I think there are one or two others, but I can 
 not recall their names now. But that leads me to feel that this whole 
 thing is related all the way through. 
 
 The Chairman. You believe this to be the case? You have not 
 positive knowledge that it is the case, but from the information sub- 
 mited to you you are convinced yourself? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes, sir. Only two or three months ago there 
 were statements made in different publications as to new organiza- 
 tions in which Mr. Morgan was deeply interested; that he owned 
 three publications to-day. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is it any easier to finance a mail-order house 
 than it is a jobbing establishment? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I could not say. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If this Wall Street outfit — and I will admit that 
 they have a pretty good grasp on the country — are going to get con- 
 trol of the mercantile establishments, why should they not go for the 
 jobbing houses first? There are not so many of them and they 
 could get at them easier. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I do not know, but they may have. I can not say. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I can not see why a parcel post that confines 
 its operations along the lines suggested here by us would contribute 
 to the designs of these men or in any way interfere with them. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Who controls the express companies, as far as you 
 know? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. From articles we have been permitted to read 
 during the last few months, I would say the railroad companies. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Who controls the railroad companies ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Just reverse it, I guess. 
 
 Senator Briggs. The point I make is, you say, that Wall Street 
 controls all these things. Is it not a good deal more certain that 
 Wall Street controls the express companies than it is that they con- 
 trol the stores? If they control both, where they fight for one 
 interest they are injuring the other, are they not? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Well, I could not say, Senator. 
 
 (The further taking of Mr. Pilkington's testimony was at this 
 time postponed until a later period.) (See pp. 693-697.) 
 
TESTIMONY OF MR. A. L. SHAPLEIGH, representing the whole- 
 salers of Kansas City and St. Louis, Mo. 
 
 (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age, residence, and 
 present occupation? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. My name is A. L. Shapleigh; I live in St. Louis, 
 and I am the treasurer of the Norvell- Shapleigh Hardware Co. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you a representative of any association ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I represent by proxy at this meeting the whole- 
 sale jobbers of Kansas City and St. Louis. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you in favor of or opposed to a parcels post? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I am opposed to an extension of the present sys- 
 tem of distribution of merchandise by mail. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly state for the information of 
 the committee your reasons for your opposition? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. My principal reason for the opposition is that I 
 fear it will militate very much against the country communities. It 
 will decrease very much the amount of merchandise that can be 
 carried in the small communities from the amount that is now carried. 
 It will centralize business in the larger centers and, to the extent 
 that such business goes to the larger centers, it must necessarily be 
 taken away from the country merchant. If any serious enlargement 
 of the present system is made I very much fear that you will find 
 a condition in the country communities very similar to that that per- 
 tains in England and Germany. I spent 4 months last year in going 
 through those countries and studying this proposition and the con- 
 ditions between America and England and Germany, so far as the 
 country town is concerned, is so great that when you strike one of 
 their so-called country towns you hardly know you are there. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think that the parcel post in that country 
 is the main cause of this difference? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I think so, Senator. I think that is the largest 
 contributing cause by reason of their habit or system of distribution. 
 There is not the necessity for carrying stocks in these smaller com- 
 munities that exists with us. 
 
 The Chairman. But, Mr. Shapleigh, the wages in those two 
 countries are lower than they are in the United States, are they not ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Very much lower. 
 
 The Chairman. The population is more congested in the cities 
 than in this country? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. No, sir; I would not say that it is in the cities. 
 Of course, in London it is. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, the proportion of the population as be- 
 tween the rural part of the country and the city, is it greater in 
 England and in Germany than in the United States ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Any expression on that, Senator ; would be purely 
 a matter of opinion. I believe that the United Kingdom claims to 
 646 
 
PAECEL POST. 647 
 
 have 40,000,000 ; London has about 7,000,000 ; I think Liverpool has 
 700,000, Glasgow about 900,000, and Edinburgh about 300,000. I 
 think you will find that the percentage of country population is 
 pretty large, even over there. 
 
 The Chairman. The transportation, though, is the main cause, 
 is it not, of centralization of population as the country builds up? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I think so. 
 
 The Chairman. It is the ability of the city to serve as large a zone 
 as possible in its volume of business, based upon transportation 
 facilities ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Where you have existing good transportation 
 facilities, that center is bound to grow. 
 
 The Chairman. Did I understand you to say that your opinion is 
 that the primary cause of the difference existing in population and 
 habits and business methods between the United States and Great 
 Britain and Germany is due to the parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I think very largely so ; yes, sir ; and to the great 
 difference in distances there. 
 
 The Chairman. The parcel post, of course, does not change that 
 except as an increased facility in transportation. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. You do not catch my meaning, I do not believe. 
 For instance, in the hardware business, we travel 37 States of the 
 Union, we employ about 250 men. Now, you can not compare the 
 State of Missouri with England, or you can not compare the States 
 of Iowa or Kansas with either England or Germany at all, because 
 the distances between substantial towns is so much greater in this 
 country than it is there, that they are not susceptible of comparison. 
 
 The Chairman. But if they invented a new style of engine in 
 England by the use of which they could get twice as much steam out 
 of a ton of coal, we could utilize it to our benefit in this country. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. While over there you made a study to see if any 
 improvements could be made in your own business that you could 
 adopt with benefit to yourself? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. That is very true, and I found some things over 
 there that interested me very greatly. For example, I do not think 
 there is in Europe in use in any of the cities the stocks of goods of 
 different classes of merchandise that you will find in America in any 
 one of our large jobbing houses. The amount of capital in Europe 
 that is tied up — I do not mean that it is not being made remunera- 
 tive, but that is invested in stocks of merchandise held ready for dis- 
 tribution, to be sold by means of traveling salesmen who go and sell 
 these goods by. exposition of samples of such goods — and the values 
 in such stocks of merchandise is absolutely enormous. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Do you deal in hardware ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Briggs. In other lines ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. No. The same thing is true in the case of dry 
 
 goods. 
 
 Senator Briggs. You sell extensively to the retail dealer? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Yes, sir; we have a house motto that it is the 
 jobber's first duty to protect his customers, where the customers are 
 the retail dealers. 
 
648 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Beiggs. How large a proportion, of your goods do you keep 
 m stock? Do you have any of your goods snipped direct from the 
 factory ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Do you mean what proportion of our goods comes 
 through our own stores and is shipped direct from factory to dealer ? 
 
 Senator Beiggs. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I should say that 90 per cent comes into our store; 
 fully that much. - 
 
 The Chairman. Then you route everything from your own store? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Yes, sir. I think that is practically true. of the 
 other lines — the wholesale drug line and the food and shoe lines — 
 and it is true also of dry goods. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Does the large store buy from the jobber or from 
 the manufacturer — the large retail establishments? Take Delean, 
 Moore & Emery, of Kansas City. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. That is a dry goods house. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do they buy their stocks from jobbers, or get a 
 good deal of their stocks from the manufacturer ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I think they are large enough to buy direct from 
 the mills that print cottons and the stuff they handle. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you issue any catalogues? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Yes; we issue a catalogue of about 20,000. Our 
 last one was gotten out a year ago last June. It contained about 
 3,600 pages, and the issue, I suppose, would weigh about 12 pounds 
 each. 
 
 Senator Beistow. You pay what — 8 cents a pound for distribution ? 
 
 Mr. Shaplet. It is too heavy ; we can not send it. We send it with 
 a bill of goods. 
 
 Senator Beistow. And pay the freight ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. The customer pays the freight. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How many catalogues did you say? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. About 20,000 of this last issue. Let me answer 
 your question a little further, if I may, Senator Bristow. I think 
 you wanted to ask him about what class of houses buy from the 
 jobbers? I can quote a case of a town in your own State, in the 
 town of Wichita. We sold a new house there an open stock of about 
 $18,000. That is larger than the average order, but merchants going 
 into business in country towns buy a stock of hardware from $2,000 
 to $5,000 ; I should say about $3,300 would be the average stock that 
 they would aim to carry of hardware. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Take the case of Emery, Bird & Thayer. They 
 buy, of course, from the manufacturers direct a good deai, and they 
 are wholly retailers, are they not? They do not job any ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I can not answer that question. My impression 
 is that they are absolutely wholesalers and do not retail anything. 
 
 Senator Beistow. No; they are just the other way. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Then I am talking of another house. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, take George Innis, of Wichita. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. What line is he in ? 
 
 Senator Beistow. Dry goods. He can buy direct from the manu- 
 facturer and sell to the consumer. It is an establishment that is big 
 enough to eliminate the jobber. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Exactly; and you will find such establishments in 
 large cities. 
 
PAKCEL POST. 649 
 
 Senator Bristow. When they can do that they are saving an ex- 
 pense, are they not? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I think they are ; yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The mail-order house does the same thing ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. The mail-order house, I think, manufactures some 
 of its own goods. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, the modern system of advertising and the 
 facilities for transportation have enabled institutions of that kind to 
 develop and nourish here in this country of ours far in excess of what 
 they formerly did. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. You are speaking now of such houses as 
 
 Senator Bristow. The large department stores; they are mail- 
 order houses. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Yes ; that is true. I have a case that I wanted to 
 bring to your attention of what a department store in a large city 
 can do with the increased weight limit of packages by mail. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you think that that is injurious to the coun- 
 try? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. No ; I can not say that it is. 
 
 Senator Beiggs. He simply wishes to keep his customers alive. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You are interested in protecting and keeping 
 alive the country merchant who buys goods from you ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. And I have more than a selfish reason. 
 
 Senator Bristow. He can not buy enough to justify him in going 
 direct to the factory. There will be always communities where the 
 country merchant is necessarily a part of it, but because of modern 
 conditions a new factor is injected, and that is the department store, 
 that is interfering with the jobber's business by eliminating him and 
 going direct from the factory to the consumer. Do you think that 
 that is an injurious development to the country? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I can only speak for one line that I claim to have 
 some knowledge of. I have been in the hardware business ever since 
 I was a boy. The jobber in hardware will never be eliminated, and 
 I will tell you why; because the multiplicity of items in a hardware 
 store are so many that it would be impossible for a retailer to buy 
 them from the factories, no matter what his size may be. He could 
 not do it. We illustrate in our catalogue over 70,000 items. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I agree with you; I do not think the country 
 merchant will ever be eliminated. He is a part of our civilization 
 and always will be. But take your hardware, take knives and 
 razors 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I think we sell them cheaper than Sears, Roebuck 
 & Co. I do not think you will find any of our knives in their cata- 
 logue. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Such knives made by other people. The busi- 
 ness of Sears, Roebuck & Co. depends upon furnishing a good mar- 
 ketable merchandise at a reasonable price. They would not be in 
 existence if they did not. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. They are able to obtain some good goods in hard- 
 ware lines. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, where these people can do that, where they 
 can manufacture the knife and have enough demand for it to sell it 
 direct to the user, and thereby eliminate the expense of the jobber, is 
 it not perfectly proper for them to do so ? 
 21845— vol 3—12 5 
 
650 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I have no objection to their prosecuting that busi- 
 ness to the best of their ability, Senator; but I do object to the Gov- 
 ernment discriminating against others and in their favor. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How are we going to do that ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. If you increase the weight limit of packages by 
 mail. Here is an advertisement in the St. Louis Times that was 
 handed to me this morning. The paper is dated December 9, 1911. 
 It it an advertisement of Scruggs- Vandervoort-Varney. They say 
 here: 
 
 Our prepaid express, freight, and mail schedule. On purchases of $5 or over 
 to all points in Missouri, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, 
 Tennessee, Minnesota, and Michigan. On purchases of $25 or over to any part 
 of the United States. When railroad, steamboat, or trolley fares are refunded, 
 the shipping charges on goods purchased will not be paid. No charges will be 
 prepaid on goods sent C. O. D. or on approval. Where goods have been sent 
 according to order and are returned, we will deduct the freight, express, or mail 
 charges for returning same from the amount of money to be refunded. 
 
 Now, that means that they will prepay on purchases of $5 or over 
 to all these points anything in this schedule here ; there are 620 items 
 about. 
 
 The Chairman. The consumer later pa}'s that in the price he pays 
 for the article ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Yes, sir. Now, in this list there are about 620 
 items. The increase of the weight of the mail package would enable 
 the great majority of these articles to go through the mail that can 
 not now get in under the 4-pound schedule. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They go by express now ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. They go by express. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, the whole thing would depend upon which 
 was the cheaper method ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It would not stop the business at all. Suppose 
 that the rate from Salina, Kans., to Lincolnton, where this man's 
 . customer might be, was 4 cents a pound and from St. Louis it was 8 
 cents, the rate of freight or the rate of postage; would not the local 
 merchant at Salina have an advantage in his freight rate which 
 nature gives him by proximity to the consumer ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Yes, sir ; I think he would. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is not that in his favor, then? It is certainly 
 not discriminating against him, is it ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. No ; I do not think so. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Then, where is your objection to this parcel- 
 post proposition ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I think it will enable what are known as the mail- 
 order houses, which have been under discussion here, to carry their 
 business more extensively, and to that extent, as their business grows, 
 that, same amount of business is taken away from the country mer- 
 chant in the town. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It is a diversion of a greater volume of business 
 to these particular mail-order houses ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Exactly; and the amount that the mail-order 
 houses gain in business is bound to be lost by somebody. That some- 
 body is going to be the merchant in the town. 
 
 The Chairman. But you predicate your statement on the assump- 
 tion that the mail-order business is going to be increased ? 
 
PARCEL POST. 651 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I feel quite sure of that by the increase of your 
 weight limit. 
 
 The Chairman. Will not the mail-order house ship and avail itself 
 of the cheapest means of transportation existing? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. If they are good business men, and I think they are. 
 
 benator Briggs. I would like to ask you one or two questions." On 
 the question of the injury to the retailer, I confess that I have had 
 very serious misgivings, and I am not convinced yet that the retail 
 country merchant is not going to be hurt. You take a customer, say 
 a retailer, 30 miles out of St. Louis, and he has a customer that wants 
 some particular article. If he telephones to that retailer, can not 
 that retailer deliver those goods as quickly as the mail-order house? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. He can deliver it more quickly if he has it in stock. 
 
 Senator Briggs. What is to hinder his getting into communication 
 with you and you sending it direct from your store to the customer? 
 There is only one charge then. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. That would probably apply, Senator, in the case 
 where a man is willing to take goods without seeing them. 
 
 The Chairman. Do not many of your customers buy without see- 
 ing the goods? They buy them through the catalogues and based 
 upon the experience they have had with you as to integrity and your 
 honesty, etc. ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Yes ; but when a man comes in he looks over our 
 goods and he looks over the goods of every large jobber when he 
 starts. 
 
 Senator Briggs. That is not when he is placing a hurry-up order, 
 but a general order. Suppose a farmer telephoned in and said he 
 wanted an article that would go under this parcels post. The re- 
 tailer hasn't it in stock, but can get. it from St. Louis the following 
 morning. Isn't he protected in that way ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. That is undoubtedly true. 
 
 Senator Briggs. In the case of an up-to-date retailer, how far is 
 this going to injure him ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. The loss to the country retailer, Senator, would be 
 large in this way; everyone knows that if you get people into your 
 store, especially a retail store, you are much more apt to sell them 
 bome-articles than you would be if they themselves developed a want. 
 In other words, you walk along the street yourself and you see some 
 article in a show window. You say, " I would like that," and you 
 inquire as to the price of it. Eetail stores everywhere are constantly 
 making efforts to get people into their places of business to show them 
 their goods. 
 
 Senator Briggs. As far as the mail-order house is concerned it does 
 not do that ? 
 
 The Chairman. The mail-order house substitutes the catalogue. 
 
 Senator Briggs. I am speaking only of competition on those articles 
 that he wants, and not on those that he thinks he wants when he 
 sees them. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. The case you cite is all right, but I think I can 
 cite another case. Suppose I am out in Sweetwater, Tex., and I 
 want an ax and by reason of the growth of business there, business 
 through the mail-order houses, I can not find anybody in Sweetwater 
 to make enough money to carry a stock of goods to justify them. 
 There is no large jobbing house near enough to Texas to get an ax 
 
652 PABCEL POST. 
 
 from. You are stating a case within 30 miles of St. Louis. That 
 is perfectly simple, but St. Louis is one of the few large cities that 
 carries a large stock of hardware. In fact, we carry the largest in 
 any city outside of Chicago. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Excuse me for asking impertinent questions, but 
 is your stock larger than Simmons's ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I think our stock in St. Louis is about the same as 
 Simmons's. We have no branch houses. They have branch houses. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Take the Sweetwater case; it would take a letter 
 from that retailer no longer to reach you in St. Louis than it would 
 for the consumer to reach Chicago, Avould it? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Not any longer ; no. 
 
 The Chairman. Would not the country merchant, if he had the 
 demand for the ax, want to fill the order ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Yes ; he would. 
 
 The Chairman. Would not he communicate with you if he were 
 doing business with you ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. if the merchant did not have the ax or any article 
 that the customer wanted, the man would say, " I may as well go to 
 the mail-order houses anyway." 
 
 Senator Briggs. He would say, " I can get it for you just as quickly 
 as the mail-order houses." 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. But the customer might say that he would buy 
 his goods from the near-by town, from somebody who was buying 
 a stock of goods. 
 
 Senator Briggs. This thing that Mr. Pilkington was talking about 
 when I came in is something that I am not familiar with; that is, 
 the antagonism between the farmers and the retail merchants. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I can not speak as to that, because I do not know. 
 
 Senator Bristow. We will take the Sweetwater. Tex., illustration. 
 Suppose the farmer out there wanted an ax and he wanted it sent 
 out to him by the storekeeper and the storekeeper telephoned in and 
 said, " I will have it out to you at a certain time." If he has it in 
 stock he can send it out for, we will say, 4 cents a pound to the 
 farmer — he got it from you by freight — the expense of delivering 
 that, the freight charge on that ax, is the freight from St. Louis to 
 Sweetwater plus the mail charge from Sweetwater to the customer. 
 Now, if the customer ordered that from Chicago, from Sears, Roe- 
 buck & Co., we will say, according to the system that we propose, he 
 would have to pay the mail rate from Chicago, which would be very 
 much higher. Now, why has not the local merchant the advantage 
 under those circumstances? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Yes; but the local merchant has got to have the 
 goods to deliver. He does not want goods to be sold to his customers 
 By catalogue houses. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They are doing that now. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Ninety per cent of the trade in the country stores 
 is not by the method you described, Senator. The people come in 
 and buy from the stock and take it with them. 
 
 The Chairman. But if he hasn't got it they can not buy it. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. If the merchant hasn't enough trade to justify 
 his carrying a stock of goods there will not be any stock, will 
 there ? There will not be any merchant. An extension of this serv- 
 ice would in a very great measure militate against the carrying of 
 
PAEOEL POST. 653 
 
 stock in the country towns. If that is true, you decrease the value 
 of that town as a social center. If you do it is going to be harder 
 for the people to stay on the farms. 
 
 Senator Beistow. It seems to me that you, to a certain extent, 
 answer the objection you made a while ago. He will have stock 
 enough there to rope him in and get him into the store, and he will 
 not lose that trade that comes from contact with him in the case 
 which you spoke of. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. The stocks that are carried elsewhere in other 
 countries where parcel post exists are not such that they would 
 attract anybody in unless they wanted something to eat or something 
 to drink, because only in towns of 5,000 or over in England can you 
 find any merchandise. 
 
 The Chairman. Is not it the desideratum of all business to reach 
 the consumer as quickly as possible and deliver to him at the cheapest 
 possible cost with a good profit to the producer ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. With a fair profit, I think that is true. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the desideratum of business, and yet given 
 the idea of an increased transportation facility you feel that you 
 would be directly injured in your business by that increased facility, 
 or only indirectly injured by the effect on the middleman. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I think that we would be indirectly affected by 
 the effect on the middleman, and what applies to our business would 
 apply to the jobber in whatever line. I have read Mr. Moon's paper 
 that has been submitted to you gentlemen. I believe every word that 
 is set forth in that paper. Now, there is another thing that is perti- 
 nent that you gentlemen should consider, and that is whether the 
 Government wants to go as far as is suggested. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, do you think it would ever be feasible, if the 
 Government so desires, to go into active competition with private 
 enterprise facilities? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I think it would be most unfortunate. 
 
 The Chairman. But do you believe from a business standpoint 
 it is practicable or possible? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. The Government with its resources, of course, 
 can do anything it wants to. 
 
 The Chairman, I am speaking from a business standpoint. The 
 Government could not operate as cheaply as a private individual ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I do not think you would get the same service. 
 
 The Chairman. Nor as efficient or economical service? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. That is it. I do not think you would get the same 
 service nor as good, nor as cheap service. 
 
 The Chairman. And you have the strongest kind of an impression 
 in your mind that it would be extremely detrimental to the in- 
 terests of the country to have governmental ownership of railroads 
 or transportation facilities in any way. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. My own mind on that question is most firm. I 
 regret exceedingly that so much tendency exists to-day toward pater- 
 nalism ; I have seen it in a good many directions. In our own city, 
 in our public schools, we have gone as far as to furnish free paper 
 and free books, which the people do not pay any attention to for the 
 simple reason that it is free. We even see that they are clean— we 
 brush their teeth, and we are now giving them eyeglasses, and there 
 
• 54 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 s very little responsibility left for the parent, and nothing for the 
 :hild, and when you reach that condition you will find that you are 
 lot building very strong citizens, because you can only gain strength 
 >y self-relinnee and independence. 
 
 The Chairman. You believe in placing responsibility on the in- 
 lividual in order to secure individual development ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I certainly do. If you do not put responsibility 
 >n them you do not get any development that is worth anything. 
 
 Senator Bryan. There is only one question I would like to ask: 
 kxe you sufficiently familiar with the conditions in England to say 
 iow long the condition you have described has existed there? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I can not say, Senator. I spent a great deal of 
 :ime in England last year, the summer prior to the one just past, and 
 studied this question because it has been talked about, and I was in- 
 vested, but I had never before spent much time in the country of 
 England. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You don't know whether before the parcel post 
 svas established in England this same condition existed ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. No ; I can not speak as to that. 
 
 Senator Bryan. It was here in 1883, 1 think. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, your observation did not lead you to be- 
 lieve that the bulk of the consumption of the country was trans- 
 ported there by the mails? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. No; I did not try to convey that impression. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If those stores do not exist, the inference from 
 your suggestion has been that they do not exist because of the parcel 
 post, and that the people who live there get their goods by mail in- 
 stead of by other sources. That would make their mails there prac- 
 tically freight business, wouldn't it? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I should think it would, yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, as a matter of fact, is that the case? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I do not think so. However, I am not sufficiently 
 familiar with the amount of that class of matter that goes through 
 their mail to speak intelligently. My observation was the condition 
 of the country varied in those places in which practically no stock 
 was shipped. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is it not a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, that 
 the parcel post, as we have it to-day, is used more in our country 
 than in England, or practically as much? 
 
 The Chairman. More in pieces? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. In the number of pieces? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. But in very small weights? 
 
 The Chairman. There are more pieces carried, fourth-class matter, 
 in the United States than are carried in England under their parcel- 
 post operations. Our percentage of fourth-class matter to the total 
 number of pieces of mail is 1.1, and in England, as I remember, it 
 is 2.3, their percentage of parcel post to their total number of pieces 
 of mail. The average weight under an 11-pound maximum weight 
 is about 3-J pounds. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That would indicate that the parcel post was a 
 very small part of their distributing system; only a little more in 
 
PAKCEI, POST. 655 
 
 per cent_ than ours, and ours is insignificant. These people do not 
 send their stuff by mail ; they send it by freight and express. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I am not familiar with their methods of dis- 
 tribution. 
 
 Senator Beistow. I do not think that more than 10 per cent of the 
 mail-order business is shipped by mail. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. The feeling among most of the jobbers, and the 
 feeling among all the retailers whom I have heard discuss the mat- 
 ter — and I have been to a good many conventions, a good many hard- 
 ware conventions — is that they are all opposed to the extension of 
 the parcel post. I merely state that to show you the widespread 
 feeling among the merchants themselves. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Don't you think that is because they have been 
 informed that the Government proposes to carry a package of mer- 
 chandise from New York City to San Francisco for the same it would 
 carry it from Kansas City to St. Louis ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Yes ; that may have something to do with it. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Or, to Springfield, 111., or to any of the Mis- 
 souri towns. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. That may have something to do with it. I can 
 not give the reasons, but I simply state the fact that the opposition 
 does exist. 
 
 Senator Beistow. I would not approve any system of transporta- 
 tion of merchandise on the part of the Government that sends a 
 package from New York City to San Francisco, 3,000 miles, for the 
 same rate that it would send it from Washington to Frederick, Md. 
 I do not think that is a proper business basis for transportation 
 charges. I can see that the retail merchants would object to the 
 department store in Chicago or New York selling their customers out 
 on the prairie the same goods if the freight rate from New York 
 were the same as the rate from a point only 20 miles away. They 
 would have a just complaint. However, a parcel post according to 
 the zone system that we have been discussing does not contemplate 
 any such condition or proposition. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Well, in the zone system, I have not studied that 
 question very much, but at first blush it strikes me you would 
 probably get mail-order houses in every zone the first thing. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Well, how is that practical ? 
 
 The Chairman. Given the volume of their business, 90 per cent of 
 it is all handled by freight, and it would be unless you made a com- 
 petitive parcel post with the freight, for it would not pay them 
 otherwise. 
 
 Mr. Shapeilgh. If you increase the limit you will increase that 
 percentage very largely. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Not to the extent of establishing branches in 
 other zones — they would have a post office in every zone. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I do not know what theory you are proceeding 
 on. Your zone system, I presume, is something like the German 
 system. 
 
 Senator Beistow. No. What we propose is that a zone system 
 shall radiate from every post office. 
 
 The Chaieman. Take, for instance, every 50 miles ; that zone would 
 have a special rate anywhere within that radius. 
 
356 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Every post office has its own radii. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. I see. 
 
 The Chairman. It seems to me that is the best possible protection 
 that you can give to each individual community served. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Your retail customer at Salina, which is a very 
 important community out there in the prairies, has a rate within 50 
 miles of Salina, or a rate within 50 miles of Lincoln or wherever the 
 post office is. Now, we will take as an illustration that the rate will 
 be 4 cents a pound. Anybody at Kansas City, a competitor or a 
 mail-order house competitor, would have to pay more to deliver to the 
 same customer at Salina than the local man does. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Wouldn't that rather be favoring the Salina 
 dealer at the expense of the Kansas City man ? 
 
 The Chairman. He gets his compensation because he has his radius 
 of 50 miles. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. But he can not sell to Salina trade ? 
 
 The Chairman. Why should he ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Because this is a free country. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes; but should the United States Government 
 transport merchandise 185 miles at the same rate that it will trans- 
 port it for 25 ? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. No ; we do not want the Government to transport 
 any of our merchandise if we can help it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you think that any transportation company 
 ought to do that? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. No, sir ; I do not. I do not think any man ought 
 to do $2 worth of work for $1. 
 
 Senator Bristow. So the man doing business within 30 miles of 
 the consumer has the advantage. Isn't that right? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Let me answer you in this way : Suppose the Kan- 
 sas City man was to sell the Salina man's customer ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. He can sell to him. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. He can, but he has the handicap of location. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes ; which nature gave him, and we ought not 
 to take it away. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. You ought not assist the Salina man in any way. 
 
 Senator Bristow. We do not. The Kansas City man can sell within 
 20 or 30 miles. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. You are speaking of the individual consumer? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Sure. 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. Oh, that is all right. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there anything further that you would like to 
 say yourself? 
 
 Mr. Shapleigh. No, sir; there is nothing more than what I have 
 said. I will be glad to answer any questions, though. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you for giving us 
 the advantage of your views. 
 
 Whereupon, at 6 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until 4.30 
 o'clock p. m. 
 
TUESDAY, DECEMBER 12, 1911, 4.30 O'CLOCK P. M. 
 AFTER RECESS. 
 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), and Senator 
 Joseph L. Bristow. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. JAMES L. COWIES, SECRETARY AND TREAS- 
 URER OF THE POSTAL PROGRESS LEAGUE, NEW YORK CITY. 
 
 The Chairmak. Will you kindly state your age, residence, and 
 occupation ? 
 
 Mr. Cowles. I am 67 years young. I am a native of the State of 
 Connecticut, and am at present a resident of New York City and have 
 been there for a number of years, and am the secretary-treasurer of 
 the Postal Progress League, which is now composed of a large num- 
 ber of prominent business men of New York and other leading 
 business men throughout the country. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you explain, for the information of the com- 
 mittee, the purpose of the league, its scope, and membership. 
 
 Mr. Cowles. The Postal Progress League came into being as a 
 result of my own very hard experience. In 1888 I found myself under 
 the two New England paper mills that owed their failure very largely 
 to the local discrimination in railway freight rates. I had just been 
 studying law and had been admitted to the bar after having gradu- 
 ated from Yale. From that day to this I have spent my entire life 
 in attempting to solve the railway problem. It to my mind is the 
 greatest of all problems before the world to-day. 
 
 The Chairman. What the committee would like specifically is 
 the functions of this league. 
 
 Mr. Cowles. The league was established in 1902. The object of the 
 league is the education of the public as to the possibilities of the post 
 office. Its aim is the widest possible extension of the sphere of the 
 post office and its most efficient economical administration. I have 
 here a list of the officers that I will submit to the committee. 
 
 (The list of officers referred to by Mr. Cowles follows:) 
 
 Frederick O. Beach, president, editor Scientific American, 361 Broadway, 
 New York, N. T. 
 
 James L. Cowles, secretary treasurer, 125 Bast. Twenty-third Street, New 
 York, N. Y. 
 
 Richard L. Gay, assistant secretary treasurer, 6 Beacon Street, Boston, Mass. 
 
 E. J. Hoskin, assistant treasurer, 174 Wills Avenue, Akron, Ohio. 
 
 Edwin D. Mead, lecturer, Boston, Mass. 
 
 Edwin Ginn, publisher, Boston, Mass. 
 
 Josiah Quincy, ex-mayor of Boston, Boston, Mass. 
 
 Frank R. Fraprie, publisher, Boston, Mass. 
 
 William O. Liller, attorney, Indianapolis, Ind. 
 
 John De Witt Warner, attorney, New York, N. Y. 
 
 William F. Gude, florist, Washington, D. C. 
 
 George J. Kindel, manufacturer, Denver, Colo. 
 
 Cyrus Northrop, president University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minn. 
 
 Edward Berwick, agriculturist, Pacific Grove, Cal. 
 
 Millard F. Bowen, attorney, Buffalo, N. Y. 
 
 T. Flover Fillette, New York, N. Y. 
 
 Col. Isaac M. Ullman, manufacturer, New Haven, Conn. 
 
 657 
 
658 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE. 
 
 Frederick C. Beach, chairman. New York, N. Y. 
 
 Simon Brentano, publisher, New Yofk, N. Y. 
 
 Charles H. Ingersoll, watch manufacturer, New York, K. Y. 
 
 James L. Cowles, New York. N. Y. 
 
 Herbert Myrick, publisher, Springfield, Mass. 
 
 Edward H. Clement, recent editor Boston Transcript, Boston, Mass. 
 
 Frederick A. Whiting, Boston, Mass. 
 
 Herbert E. Davidson, manufacturer, Boston, Mass. 
 
 Arthur C. Walworth, manufacturer. Boston, Mass. 
 
 Richard L. Gay, secretary Massachusetts State Board of Trade, Boston, Mass. 
 
 George M. Whitaker, Department of Agriculture, Washington, D. C. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the membership of the league? 
 
 Mr. Cowles. If I had known that I was coming here to-day I 
 could have given you the exact number of supporters of our league. 
 We have on our books 350 or 400, I should think. I have not the 
 exact number with me. I have here a list of the men who joined in 
 calling one of our meetings at New York awhile ago, at which time 
 we had a conference. It was not so very well attended ; it was called 
 by postal card, and these men responded to that call. A large number 
 of these men have contributed to the support of our association. It 
 has been supported by all classes of people. In evidence of one class 
 of support I have here this letter given me last January : 
 
 My Deae Cowles: Hurrah for our folks. Connecticut State Grange has just 
 voted unanimously $200 to Postal Progress League and $5,000 to the executive 
 committee to be used to push our cause of parcel post. Thus does your home 
 State back up your good work. 
 
 Lovingly, yours, J. H. Hale. 
 
 J. H. Hale is one of the largest peach growers of the United States 
 and of the world. I might say, further, with reference to the state- 
 ment of our friend who said this morning that there was great oppo- 
 sition in Connecticut to the parcel post 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly specify whom you mean by " our 
 friend this morning " ? 
 
 Mr. Cowles. Mr. Wells, from Hartford. I want to state that two 
 different legislatures of the State of Connecticut have indorsed this 
 movement and practically the bill which is now before both the House 
 and Senate ; this bill which was introduced a few days ago by Senator 
 O'Gorman and is the same bill that was introduced in 1909 by Hon. 
 William S. Bennett Avith the 4-pound limit and reintroduced the next 
 spring, 1910, with an 11-pound limit, by Mr. Sulzer, Mr. Bennett 
 having at that time rather given up his interest in it. It was so 
 introduced with the weight limit extended because at the hearing in 
 1910 there was a very widespread demand that the weight limit should 
 be extended from 4 to 11 pounds. I introduced that bill at the outset 
 because my friends had been continually saying 
 
 The Chairman. That is, it was introduced, at your request, by a 
 Member of Congress? 
 
 Mr. Cowles. Yes ; of course ; by my request, in the first place, by 
 Mr. Bennett, and then by Mr. Sulzer, and now by Senator O'Gorman. 
 
 The Chairman. As you have a copy of the bill there we will have 
 it inserted here in the record. 
 
PARCEL POST. 659 
 
 (The bill referred to reads as follows:) 
 
 [H. R. 14. Sixty-second Congress, first session.] 
 
 A BILL To reduce postal rates, to improve the •postal service, and to increase postal 
 
 revenues. 
 
 Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States 
 of America in Congress assembled, That the common weight limit of the domestic 
 postal service of the United States is hereby increased to eleven pounds, the 
 common limit of the Universal Postal Union, and that in the general business 
 of the post office the one-cent-an-ounce rate on general merchandise — fourth- 
 class mail matter — be, and is hereby, reduced to the third-class rate, one cent 
 for each two ounces or fraction thereof. 
 
 Sec. 2. That the rate on local letters or sealed parcels posted for delivery 
 within the free-delivery service is hereby determined at two cents on parcels up 
 to four ounces, one cent on each additional two ounces ; at nondelivery offices, 
 one cent for each two ounces. 
 
 FREE RURAL SERVICE. 
 
 Sec. 3. That all mail matter collected and delivered within the different rural 
 routes of the United States is hereby determined to be in one class with rates, 
 door to door, between the different houses and places of business and the post 
 office or post offices on each route, as follows: On parcels up to one twenty-fourth 
 of a cubic foot, or one by six by twelve inches in dimensions, and up to one pound 
 in weight, one cent ; on larger parcels up to one-half a cubic foot, or sis by twelve 
 by twelve inches in dimensions, and up to eleven pounds in weight, five cents; on 
 larger parcels up to one cubic foot, six by twelve by twenty-four inches in di- 
 mensions, and up to twenty-five pounds in weight, ten cents. No parcel shall 
 be over six feet in length, and in no case shall a carrier be obliged to transport 
 a load of over five hundred pounds. 
 
 INSURANCE. 
 
 Sec 4. That on all unregistered prepaid mail matter without declared value 
 an indemnity up to ten dollars shall be paid by the Post Office Department for 
 such actual loss or damage as may occur through the fault of the postal serv- 
 ice, and this without extra charge. Certificates of posting shall be provided 
 on demand. On registered parcels of declared value, and on which the fee 
 for registration, insurance, and postage has been duly prepaid, the Post Office 
 Department shall pay the full value of any direct loss or damage that may 
 occur through the fault of the postal service. The fees for insurance and regis- 
 tration shall be as follows : For registration and Insurance up to fifty dollars, 
 ten cents ; for each additional fifty dollars, two cents. No claim for compensa- 
 tion will be admitted if not presented within one year after the parcel is posted. 
 
 Sec. 5. That all acts and parts of acts inconsistent with this act are hereby 
 repealed. 
 
 Sec. 6. That this act shall take effect in six months from and after the date 
 of approval thereof. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you in favor of or opposed to the extension 
 of the scope of the fourth-class mail matter as it noAv exists? 
 
 Mr. Cowles. My bill proposed the extension of the weight limit 
 to at least 11 pounds, and it proposes to consolidate the third and 
 fourth classes of mail matter at the old common rate of 1874. The 
 parcel service of this country, what is called parcel service — I 
 might say right here that the post office has always done an express 
 business from its earliest conception and the records of the dead- 
 letter office will show that sealed parcels were very numerous and 
 that in those sealed parcels were frequently found articles of jewelry, 
 laces, and so forth, that would bear the old heavy rate of those days, 
 the rates running all the way up to 25 cents with zones as is proposed 
 now but in 1863 the service of our post office was made regardless 
 
660 PARCEL POST. 
 
 of distance — and a system of uniform rates was established in 1863. 
 At that time they commenced to handle open unsealed parcels, and 
 in 1874 the rates were cut down to 8 cents a pound, 1 cent for each 2 
 ounces, and it covered both of what are now called third and fourth 
 classes of mail matter. Two years later than that our express com- 
 panies got on to the job and the law was amended by substituting 
 the term "one cent an ounce " for the words " one cent for two 
 ounces," which raised the rate just 100 per cent. Then things went 
 along until 1879, when the big publishers got their matter back again 
 to 1 cent for each 2 ounces, and in that year that one-cent-two-ounce 
 rate for books, and so forth, was called third-class matter, and the 
 one-cent-an-ounce rate on other matter was called fourth-class 
 matter. That is the way those classes came into being. Then in 
 1888, I think, through our friend, Mr. Burpee, of Philadelphia, 
 the leadings seedsmen got their matters put back to the old rate, and 
 when Mr. Wanamaker came into his position as Postmaster General 
 he found this condition of things existing ; raw peanuts were 16 cents 
 a pound, cooked peanuts 8 cents a pound; then grain for food was 
 16 cents a pound, while the same grain raw was 8 cents a pound. 
 It manifestly did not cost any more to carry one package than the 
 other. 
 
 Of course the larger the number of parcels that you have that are 
 brought into being by the second-class rates the greater the number 
 of handlings. Manifestly, if you had third and fourth class matter 
 consolidated, then when your stationer wanted to send out his goods 
 anywhere he would send a printed book and a blank book together. 
 As things are to-day unless they are separated, one is 16 cents a 
 pound and the other is 8 cents a pound, and the consequence is that 
 the public are obliged to spend double as much time in sending out 
 parcels, and so, too, the Government itself is obliged to open those 
 parcels and pry into them. I had this very laughable experience on 
 one occasion: I sent out some of our petitions and with them I sent 
 out some of our circulars. I put on the third-class rate. The next 
 day I had a note from the post office in New York saying that my 
 packages were held up for unpaid postage. I went down there, 
 and they said to me that if I had only had one petition in my packet 
 they would not have paid any attention to it, but since I had several 
 petitions in there and since they were only part in ink they were 
 merchandise, and I must pay merchandise rates on my third and 
 fourth class matter. 
 
 The Chairman. Your criticism is on the present classification? 
 
 Mr. Cowles. That is part of my criticism. I say further that I 
 attended the hearings in New York on the second-class matter, and 
 the evidence brought forward by the Government as to the extreme 
 cost of the second-class matter largely hinged on the question of 
 handling, and the Postmaster General said at the time that we had 
 not only 4 classes of mail matter, but 11 classes — 4 general classes and 
 7 subclasses. The inevitable result is to force us to put up a great 
 many more packets than would be necessary and to have a great 
 many more handlings than would be necessary, and with the use 
 of the machinery which is now very common in all the great busi- 
 nesses of transportation, it would cost mighty little more to handle 
 a 10-pound package than it would to handle an ounce package. I 
 claim that one of the great causes of expense to the Post Office 
 
PAKCEL POST. 661 
 
 Department to-day is its 11 systems of classification, and I have 
 advocated one class of mail matter at 1 cent a pound; and I am dead 
 certain that with a proper use of machinery 1 cent a pound would be 
 found to be quite as practicable as was the old 3|-cent rate of Lin- 
 coln's time. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Cowles, you appeared before the House com- 
 mittee, did you not ? 
 
 Mr. Cowles. I did ; but there are points here that I did not sub- 
 mit at that time. 
 
 The Chairman. In order not to duplicate effort, we would like you 
 to confine yourself to new points not covered in your hearings before 
 the House committee. 
 
 Mr. Cowles. I know you would, and the one point of all others 
 that was brought up here this morning was that question as to the 
 cost of transportation. Now, the post office rests on three funda- 
 mental principles, and these are its principles: Rates regardless of 
 distance, rates regardless of the character of the matter transported, 
 practically so; then rates regardless of a patron's business. It is 
 democracy up to its limits. The humblest citizen on the most out-of- 
 the-way rural route in this country has the guaranty of the National 
 Government that he shall get his supplies and send off his prod- 
 uce on the same terms as the biggest corporation in our greatest 
 metropolis. The only limit of the post office, the only physical limit, 
 is, of course, the capacity of our transport machinery. Its only legal 
 limit is your will and mine. The post office in the 'time of the 
 Romans was only limited to the capacity of Roman machinery. 
 
 The Chairman. Have not conditions changed a good deal since 
 the time of the Romans ? 
 
 Mr. Cowles. Yes; but the Roman post office was run with prac- 
 tically the same machinery that our post office was run up to the days 
 of the railway; and in many respects it was a wider service than 
 ours, that is to say, it covered the whole business of public trans- 
 portation, and the English post office also covers the whole system 
 of transportation. The facts are that less than a hundred years 
 ago the English post office — the records show something like this: 
 Among the curious articles franked to foreign parts, by the old 
 English packet service, were the following: Fifteen hounds going 
 to the King of the Romans, with a free pass; two maid servants 
 going as laundresses to my Lord Ambassador Methuen; Dr. Crich- 
 ton carrying with him a cow and divers other accessories. 
 
 When the first post office was established in the United States it 
 was provided that the post office should furnish horses to carry 
 passengers and they charged so much a mile, to be sure, but they car- 
 ried men on horseback and carried their packages. You will find 
 that in the postal bill that was passed in the time of William and 
 Mary for the establishment of a post office in this country, so that 
 from the beginning of time limitations on the post office have simply 
 been the public weal. The only difference between the old-time post 
 office and ours was this : That the old-time post offices were for the 
 service of the King, for espionage and taxation. It was used to 
 carry the King's orders, to bring his samples to him and afterwards 
 he had his samples brought to him in wholesale lots. Now, I claim 
 that the citizen is king, that the railways are post roads, that railway 
 trains are post wagons, that railway rates are post-road taxes, and 
 
662 PARCEL POST. 
 
 thai what we ought to do under the post-roads clause of the Constitu- 
 tion is to take possession of these post roads and then have a parcel 
 post limited only by the capacity of your freight car and the size of 
 your freight-car door. 
 
 The Chairman. Then your position is predicated upon govern- 
 mental ownership of the transportation facilities? 
 
 Mr. Cowles. Not necessarily. The Government may hire the 
 railway equipment and go on as you are to-day, as far as that is con- 
 cerned, but if you are, one thing that should be done is to substitute 
 your sj>ace for weight in the determining of railway mail pay, and 
 under that condition of things pay so much for the use of a car. 
 Then you would have the car to use and j^ou could fill it up as you 
 pleased. You are paying so much a mile for your car; it does not 
 make any difference how far the line runs the cost is practically the 
 same. My whole position is predicated on this principle, that in 
 public transportation the cost of the service rendered is regardless 
 of the distance traveled by any unit of traffic upon the moving ma- 
 chinery. That law was first given to the world by Mr. Hill at the 
 very birth of our transport service. 
 
 The Chairman. Do I understand you that you advocate the sub- 
 stitution of a linear car-foot mile as your unit for the pound per 
 mile? 
 
 Mr. Cowles. Absolutely. I would hire the whole car when I was 
 doing it. I would hire the whole equipment at so much a mile and 
 then use it to the limit. Now, I want to give you in the closest pos- 
 sible compass my thought as to the distance as a factor in transporta- 
 tion. I have prepared a little paper that I would have submitted, 
 only I did not know that I was to speak here to-day. 
 
 The long and short of the whole business is, gentlemen, that when a 
 railway train is running from New York to San Francisco you hire 
 that train and you pay mileage for it, but when that train is running 
 and stopping at every station, leaving people here and taking on 
 people there, the cost of the operation of that train is absolutely the 
 same regardless of whether you are on that train or off it. The cost 
 is absolutely the same. That is the principle that Rowland Hill set 
 forth. He shows that it actually costs the English Government 50 
 times as much to carry a single letter 20 miles from London as it does 
 from London to Edinburgh. On that principle he founded a post 
 office and you see this thing carried out on every trolley line ; it is car- 
 ried out in the great through-freight traffic of the railways to-day, 
 and if it were not applied to the through traffic on the railways to- 
 day your firms would go out of business because they could not pay 
 the rates. It is applied on all the through traffic from the Pacific 
 coast; you have a flat rate east of the Missouri River. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I think you are mistaken as to that, but I will 
 not argue the point with you. 
 
 Mr. Cowles. Then I want to say this : This point has been brought 
 up here with reference to the American Express Co. The American 
 Express Co. is not only carrying English parcels, but the postal 
 parcels of the outside world at a flat rate all over the country of 24 
 cents on a parcel. The English Government is to-day sending its 
 parcels all over Canada at 3 pounds for 24 cents, 7 pounds for 48 
 cents — a flat rate all over the country. I have seen 10-pound pack- 
 ages in the office of the American Express Co. in New York that were 
 
PARCEL, POST. 663 
 
 directed to all points in New England. 10 pounds for 10 cents, if 
 you please, but if we happened to put in a little bit of merchandise 
 then it went at the merchandise rate — and I have seen those packages 
 opened, also. Some things have been said about the small man and the 
 large man. I have lived in a small community, and the railwav rates 
 of this country are to-day always in favor of the big man and the big 
 city. Invariably so. The express rates are the same. The post 
 office, on the other hand, gives the same rate to the small man as to 
 the big man, and it is the only hope that the small town or the small 
 merchant has in this country. The object of the Postal Progress 
 League is to make this whole county one great city, with uniform 
 rates from door to door everywhere, the rates dependent upon the 
 service rendered, with all rates in one class. When a barrel is taken 
 by the railway it does not make any difference in the cost of its serv- 
 ice whether it contains one thing or another thing. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you mean to do the transportation business of 
 the country through the postal department ? 
 
 Mr. Cowles. Absolutely. That is the only way that it can be done. 
 It is the only way that you can do it with satisfaction to the whole 
 people. And now I am carrying out your suggestion, Senator 
 Bourne, by having a postal referendum taken, and the votes are com- 
 ing into the postal committee by the thousand. So far as the zone 
 is concerned, you can not make any zone except the zone of necessity. 
 If we have transportation absolutely free, we should all of us be kept 
 quite close enough to our native heaths by the necessity of making a 
 living and by the demands of affection. To-day this country is suffer- 
 ing, above all other things, because of the strangulation of our people. 
 I have just come from the recent hearings in New York City, where 
 it was brought out that the express companies were increasing their 
 rates everywhere, and that it is common for them to carry things 
 around Robin Hood's barn, thousands of miles, when by a direct 
 route the goods could be delivered with a third as many handlings. 
 
 The Chairman. Is your whole position predicated, Mr. Cowles, 
 upon governmental ownership or governmental operation of the 
 transportation facilities of the country? 
 
 Mr. Cowles. The bill I have here does not depend at all upon that. 
 These bills mean anything that is done in this line. Said Mr. John 
 Weeks : 
 
 Mr. Cowles, that bill shall not get out of this committee if I can help it, 
 because any extension of the weight limit means that if you extend to 11 
 pounds you will extend it to 25 pounds, and the extension of the Post Office 
 Department to the whole business, and therefore I am opposed to it. 
 
 Mr. Loud, when he first came here from the Pacific coast, came to 
 attack the second-class service. Why? Just before that Mr. David 
 Lubin master of the State Grange, of Sacramento, began to advocate 
 the same rate for other matter than the second class which he had had 
 brought to his door. The general public were entitled to the same 
 service, he said, as the magazines, and so they were. That thing got 
 to the notice of the Southern Pacific Express Co., and they sent Mr. 
 Loud here and he brought this proposition up. He said that the 
 railways would either absorb the post office or the post office the rail- 
 ways. . . 
 
 The Chairman. That is an individual opinion, is it not ? 
 
664 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Mr. Cowles. That was the position taken by the chairman of the 
 postal committee. If you are going to have an 11-pound limit, and 
 you are favoring it, why 11 pounds more than 25 pounds, I would 
 like to know. Why shouldn't you extend it ? 
 
 The Chairman. We will have to decide that a little later. 
 
 Mr. Cowles. Exactly, but if its uniform rate is good for 11 
 pounds, why not. for 25 pounds ? 
 
 The Chairman. You have got to come to a determination, in your 
 decision, as to what is practicable and what the conditions will per- 
 mit of. 
 
 Mr. Cowles. You have now an 11-pound service, and I say this, 
 that the service that is carrying magazines up to any limit can cer- 
 tainly carry merchandise up to a 4-pound limit. If it can not, it 
 had better go out of business. My proposition is that you should do 
 here what the Germans are doing. The Germans have one mecha- 
 nism for handling letters and another for handling magazines. For 
 the German post office carries 8-ounce letters for about 1 cent and 
 merchandise parcels up to 11 pounds, distance up to 46 miles, 6 
 cents; for greater distances, within the Austrian and German Em- 
 pires the rate on merchandise parcels is 12 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. If you will permit me to suggest to you, in view 
 of the fact that at your request a bill prepared by you has been intro- 
 duced by Senator O'Gorman, would you give the committee the 
 benefit of your views as to why, in your judgment. Congress should 
 enact that bill ; that is concrete and we have something definite. 
 
 (The bill referred to is given in full:) 
 
 [S. 3558, Sixty-second Congress, second session.] 
 
 A BILL To reduce postal rates, to improve the postal service, and to increase postal 
 
 revenues. 
 
 Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States 
 of America in Congress assembled, That the common weight limit of the domes- 
 tic postal service of the United States is hereby increased to eleven pounds, the 
 common limit of the Universal Postal Union, and that in the general business of 
 the post office, the one-cent-an-ounce rate on general merchandise — fourth-class 
 mail matter — be, and is hereby, reduced to the third-class rate, one cent for 
 each two ounces or fraction thereof. 
 
 Sec. 2. That the rate on local letters or sealed parcels posted for delivery 
 within the Free Delivery Service is hereby determined at two cents on parcels 
 up to four ounces, one cent on each additional two ounces; at nondelivery 
 offices, one cent for each two ounces. 
 
 Sec 3. That all mail matter collected and delivered within the different rural 
 routes of the United States is hereby determined to be in one class, with rates, 
 door to door, between the different houses and places of business and the post 
 office or post offices on each route, as follows: On parcels up to one twenty- 
 fourth of a cubic foot, or one by six by twelve inches in dimensions pnd up to 
 one pound in weight, one cent ; on larger parcels up to one-half a cubic foot, or 
 six by twelve by twelve inches in dimensions and up to eleven pounds in weight, 
 five cents; on larger parcels up to one cubic foot, six by twelve by twenty-four 
 inches in dimensions and up to twenty-five pounds in weight, ten cents. No 
 parcel shall be over six feet in length, and in no case shall a carrier be obliged 
 to transport a load of over five hundred pounds. 
 
 Sec. 4. That on all unregistered prepaid mail matter without declared value 
 an indemnity up to ten dollars shall be paid by the Post Office Department for 
 such actual loss or damage as may occur through the fault of the postal 
 service, and this without extra charge. Certificates of posting shall be provided 
 on demand. On registered parcels of declared value, and on which the fee for 
 registration, insurance, and postage has been duly prepaid, the Post Office De- 
 partment shall pay the full value of any direct loss or damage that may occur 
 through the fault of the postal service. The fees for insurance and registra- 
 
PARCEL POST. 665 
 
 tion shall be as follows: For registration and insurance up to fifty dollars, ten 
 cents; for each additional fifty dollars, two cents. No claim for compensation 
 will be admitted if not presented within one year after the parcel is posted. 
 
 Sec. 5. That all acts and parts of acts inconsistent with this act are hereby 
 repealed. 
 
 Sec. 6. That this act shall take effect six months from and after the date of 
 approval thereof. 
 
 Mr. Cowles. My reason is this: That it will be one step toward 
 relieving us from the exploitation of our private express companies 
 and it is the only means by which it can possibly be done. The 
 lowest rate of an express company to-day is 25 cents on a package. 
 You have the figures yourself. You brought that out in comparing 
 the postal rates to the express company rates. Unless that is done 
 and done now we shall for years be under the postal exploitation of 
 the express companies even down to one pound. It will be a great 
 advantage in the handling of samples and of all parcels of light 
 value, and of great value. The proposition in our rural routes that 
 I brought forward is this: I proposed there a suit-case service within 
 the limits of the rural routes. A suit case is just 1 cubic foot; the 
 English limit is 2 cubic feet. The letter rate in England is an 
 8-cent-a-pound service, and they are carrying something like two bil- 
 lion pieces of sealed parcels in the service today with enormous 
 benefit to the English people. Take this rural-route service we have ; 
 we have our horses and our wagons and it is a very pitiful thing if a 
 horse and wagon can not carry parcels up to 25 pounds in weight 
 and up to the size of an ordinary suit case. 
 
 The Chairman. They could not carry beyond their capacity, could 
 they ? You mean it is pitiful that there is a waste, a seeming waste, 
 in that governmental operation. 
 
 Mr. Cowles. When it is done our small merchants are going to be 
 relieved of the necessity of hitching up their teams at all; the post 
 office will bring their supplies to them. They will be able to do their 
 business with less capital, because they can order their goods a"nd have 
 them sent from all parts of the country. A friend of mine was travel- 
 ing in those islands from which we get our cows; the Jersey Isles. 
 He stopped one day at a small store to get some flannels; the store 
 did not have them,' so he telegraphed for them and they came right 
 down to him. 
 
 The Chairman. They were sent by post ? 
 
 Mr. Cowles. Absolutely sent by post. The man picked out what 
 he wanted and the rest were sent back. That has got to be a very 
 common thing in England and the result of it is that the tailor is 
 able to do his business with less cost than ever before and the men 
 can extend their business with less capital. The whole business of 
 the country is improved. The whole fact of the matter is that our 
 whole civilization is a transport civilization and this development of 
 the post office is the one thing that will do more than all other things 
 together for the service of the post office. I have another bill pending 
 in the House providing for an experimental service on the rural 
 routes thoroughly graded and macadamized. < 
 
 The Chairman. We have 42,000 rural routes m the United btates 
 
 now. . , 
 
 Mr. Cowles. But we are going to try that with one or two routes 
 that are thoroughly graded and macadamized. We are going to have 
 
 21845— vol 3—12 6 
 
666 PARCEL POST. 
 
 them start out twice a day. Now, going out in opposite directions 
 those vehicles will do twice as much as they do under present condi- 
 tions. They will do the whole business. I propose that the rates should 
 be on parcels up to a pound in weight, 1 cent ; larger parcels up to 5 
 pounds, 2 cents; 11-pound parcels, 5 cents; 25 pounds, 10 cents; 60 
 pounds, 15 cents; half -barrel parcels, 100 pounds, 20 cents; barrel 
 parcels or trunks, 200 pounds, 25 cents, carried anywhere on those 
 routes. 
 
 The Chairman. On this experimental route; this one route? 
 
 Mr. Cowles. One or two routes, whatever it may be. I took that 
 bill to the Fourth Assistant Postmaster General, and he said, 
 "Cowles, I know of a number of instances where that would be a suc- 
 cess from the start." I can not think of any one thing that would do 
 more to arouse the general public to improve their roads and secure 
 a greater prosperity among the people on the rural routes. Give to the 
 people of the country this condition of low uniform rates and you 
 create tens of thousands of new industries. You are going to in- 
 crease the prosperity of the country beyond our dreams. 
 
 The Chairman. Pardon the interruption, Mr. Cowles, but how 
 long do you think you will want to complete your demonstration and 
 presentation of your views before the committee? 
 
 Mr. Cowles. Ten minutes. 
 
 The Chairman. That is perfectly agreeable, but I want to know 
 about the time for adjournment to-night. 
 
 Mr. Cowles. I have given you, Senator, the general thought which 
 has been at the bottom of my mind in all these things. 
 
 The Chairman. The fundamentals as they appeared to you. 
 
 Mr. Cowles. The fundamentals as they appeared to me. The whole 
 point rests here. From the beginning of time the men who have 
 owned the roads have owned the people on the roads. It was the 
 owning of the roads that gave the Roman Empire the owning of the 
 people, and I want to wrest our people from the awful destiny under 
 which they live. I went in to-day to buy a mileage book; it will cost 
 me going from and to my home just $9. If I had not bought a mile- 
 age book it would cost me $10. A poor devil coming down here 
 from 
 
 The Chairman. That is a matter that comes up before the Inter- 
 state Commerce Commission. 
 
 Mr. Cowles. It is all a part of your work. 
 
 The Chairman. Not under the segregation of work that is made 
 here in the legislative operation of our Government at present. 
 
 Mr. Cowles. The one great thing that I want to impress upon the 
 minds of all your people is this, that in public transportation the cost 
 is regardless of the distance traversed by any unit of traffic up to 
 the capacity of the machine; that the cost is regardless of the char- 
 acter of your packet, that the rate should always be regardless of 
 the volume of the patron's business. Now, the post office does that 
 partly. It must do the whole of it, and upon you gentlemen here I 
 think rests in no small degree the future of our Republic. I live in 
 New York and I feel very keenly the conditions of the poor in that 
 city. The trouble in our cities is the discrimination in favor of the 
 great cities and the great men in the cities. I am a poor devil living 
 in New York; there is plenty of work for me down in Bridgeport; 
 
PARCEL, POST. 667 
 
 I go to the railway station and they charge me so much that it takes 
 all I earn, and yet it would not cost but a nickel to take me down 
 there and back again if the railways, were run as they should be; run 
 by the post office with its uniform rates everywhere. 
 
 The Chairman. Would it not make some difference as to the 
 amount of transportation that the railroads conducted ? If the peo- 
 ple did not patronize and did not pay that nickel in sufficient quan- 
 tities your whole fundamental would fall to pieces, would it not ? 
 
 Mr. Cowles. They are doing it everywhere. 
 
 The Chairman. You are assuming on a basis of the utmost peak 
 of the transportation company. You adduce such and such results 
 in your own mind. Is not all that based upon the limit of the scope 
 of operation of the machinery itself ? 
 
 Mr. Cowles. But the machinery is capable of extension. We are 
 rapidly coming to a time when your coal is going to be transformed 
 to electricity and the machinery that is now devoted to coal will be 
 used for other means. Half of your railway system will go out of 
 business. To-day you have 31,000 express stations in the country, 
 and you have nearly double that of postal stations in the country. 
 Somebody said about the increasing cost from the increasing busi- 
 ness. It was testified in the great milk case, which I attended in 
 New York some years ago, by the railway representatives that for 
 every 100 per cent increased business about 25 per cent would rep- 
 resent the increase in cost. At that time railway men in this coun- 
 try testified that when a milk train was running to New York it did 
 not make any difference in the cost of the train as to whether there 
 were 10 cans in the car or 200 cans in the car. The cost was the mov- 
 ing of the train ; the distance of running the train had nothing to do 
 with the cost of the cans of milk that were in it. 
 
 The Chairman. It had something to do with the payment of its 
 operation, did it not ? 
 
 Mr. Cowles. At that time they were making so much money on the 
 milk that they were able to pay their special agents $50,000 a year. 
 
 The Chairman. But, in taking a study of the costs, you have also 
 got to take into consideration a study of the compensation. There 
 has got to be compensation to secure operation or there will be a loss 
 or a profit. 
 
 Mr. Cowles. The railway starts from Boston to go to San Fran- 
 cisco ; it will carry 500 passengers, and it starts out with 300 passen- 
 gers; its first stop is Worcester; a hundred people get on and a 
 hundred people get off. They do that on an average— — 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose they do not; would not your whole posi- 
 tion fall to pieces if they didn't fill up? 
 
 Mr. Cowles. But the experience of the world shows that they do. 
 You will see it in your city trolley lines. 
 
 The Chairman. I have seen a good many empty cars. 
 
 Mr. Cowles. Your post office is to-day delivering European par- 
 cels — 11-pound parcels from Germany for 86 cents; from Italy, for 
 79 cents; from Germany, for 81 cents; and Austria, 86 cents — all 
 over this country. We are charging 16 cents on a package. That is 
 a 100 per cent protection of the foreigner against our citizens. You 
 know where your express companies are, but the question is whether 
 you will be your own express companies, doing your own business at 
 
668 PARCEL POST. 
 
 the cost of the service rendered, or whether you will submit forever 
 to allowing private individuals to do your own transportation busi- 
 ness and charge you on the value of the service rendered ; whether 
 they shall take away from you all the objects for which the railways 
 were built, which were to eliminate distance, or whether it shall be 
 used for your benefit. Somebody has stated that it costs so much a 
 letter to carry a thing out. Suppose I were living in Alaska; my 
 presence in Alaska will be well worth what a letter would cost you, 
 because my presence there is of value to you. I would like to have 
 this article inserted in the record. 
 
 (The article referred to is as follows:) 
 
 To content the man dwelling more remote from town with his lonely lot by 
 giving him regular and frequent means of intercommunication; to assure the 
 emigrant who plants his new home on the skirts of the distant wilderness or 
 prairie that he is not forever severed from the kindred and society that still 
 shares his interest and love; to prevent those whom the swelling tide of popu- 
 lation is constantly pressing to the verge of the wilderness from sinking into 
 the hunter or savage state; to render the citizen, how far soever from the seat 
 of the Government, worthy, by proper knowledge and intelligence, of his im- 
 portant privileges as a sovereign constituent of the Government; to diffuse 
 throughout all parts of the land enlightenment, social improvement, and na- 
 tional affinities, elevating our people in the scale of civilization and binding 
 them together in patriotic affection ; this, said the House Postal Committee 
 of 1844, is the end of the post office. 
 
 At the parcel-post hearings of April, 1910, at Washington, Mr. Charles TJnder- 
 hill, a retail merchant of Somerville, Mass., said that the local express com- 
 panies of Boston transport parcels to the homes in the suburban towns up to 
 15 miles from Boston, 10 pounds for 5 cents; 10 parcels of lead or nails — of 100 
 pounds each — for a dollar. (Pp. 236-237 of the parcel-post hearings of April, 
 1910.) And at the parcel-post hearings of June, 1911, Mr. E. W. Bloomingdale, 
 counsel of the Retail Dry Goods Association of New York, said that the New 
 York stores are delivering their merchandise — from a package of needles to a 
 refrigerator — to their suburban customers, 30 to 35 miles away, at a cost of 
 from 3J cents to 4 cents a packet. (P. 105 of the parcel-post hearings at 
 Washington of June, 1911.) 
 
 Verily, if we must needs try further postal experiments, then nothing less 
 than the enactment of our bill (H. R. 14) into law this winter will satisfy 
 the public demand for the immediate establishment of an extended parcel post 
 But neither an 11-pound parcel post at 8 cents a pound nor an unlimited cent-a- 
 pound parcel post can secure that reduction in the cost of living and that 
 widening of the opportunities for getting a living which is the cry of the hour. 
 
 Our opponents acknowledge, moreover, that any extension of the postal 
 service means its final extension over the whole business of transportation and 
 transmission, and it is clearly manifest that with this accomplished the chaos, 
 disorder, and fear that broods over us to-day will disappear, and it will be 
 quickly discovered that our old earth is big enough for all of us and rich 
 enough to meet the needs of each of us. Then why not establish a general 
 freight and passenger post now? 
 
 SCIENTIFIC POSTAL MANAGEMENT. 
 
 " Scientific management," says Louis Brandeis, " would reduce the expenses 
 of our great post roads a million dollars a day." The mere substitution of a 
 system of prepaid cost-of-the-service rates (less than carload rates, station to 
 station, 10 cents on a 200-pound parcel, 4 cubic feet space; carload rates, 50 
 cents a ton, 40 cubic feet space) for the tens of millions of the " what-the-traffic- 
 will-bear" collect rates of to-day would reduce railway expenses by many 
 thousands of dollars a day. 
 
 Railways are post roads; railway trains are post wagons; railway rates are 
 post-road taxes; they must be determined by the representatives of ratepayers 
 in Congress assembled and on the postal principle. 
 
 Under a scientifically managed post office, covering the general business of 
 public transportation, post-road trains would run from starting point to desti- 
 
PARCEL POST. 669 
 
 lation over lines of the lowest grades, least obstructive curves, and shortest 
 listance. Mechanical power, taking the place of man power in the loading and 
 mloading of parcels, L. C. L. freight, would cut down the cost of that branch 
 if public transportation, says the efficiency engineer, S. B. Fowler, from 75 
 ents to 19 cents a ton ; and on the basis of the over 600,000.000 tons of that 
 haracter of freight handled by our railway post roads in 1909 we would save 
 iver $300,000,000 a year. The mechanical handling of carload freight by the 
 Jovernment, cutting the two days of the present private service down to one 
 lay, would double the capacity of our transport equipment. 
 
 Now, anybody who goes to any of the railway stations in this 
 iountry finds that there is no connection at all between the railroad 
 lompanies and the homes of the people. The waste is beyond our 
 Ireams. The waste is enormous. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean by waste, duplication of effort? 
 
 Mr. Cowles. Absolutely. The private individuals sending their 
 ;eams to the post offices; when you have one team doing the business 
 regularly, they could do more than a hundred teams doing the busi- 
 less irregularly. The post office would know just what is coming to 
 t. You will have your best possible machinery for doing this work, 
 [n New York City, if I had my way about it, we would have a system 
 n the residential districts of traveling post offices, with men collect- 
 ing and delivering so that they need not spend their time ringing 
 loor bells, at a cost of $5,000,000 a year, according to the Post Office 
 Department, to our people. Then in the lower part of New York 
 ive should have the subways. They ought to be arranged so that when 
 mything comes down the chutes it should drop down on traveling 
 Delts and into tubes and never be handled until it reaches its destina- 
 :ion. If I were running this post office, I would have the best engi- 
 leers in the world and have those men studying all the while how to 
 ise applied mechanics, instead of men. That is the great service that 
 rou gentlemen have to do for the people of this land; to solve this 
 nighty problem. 
 
 Sometimes in this world of ours the most complex problems admit 
 )f the simplest solution, and sometimes you have but to open your 
 jyes and the solution is before you. The post office is here, and your 
 service with men, etc. Take hold of this problem and you will do 
 something more for this world than you have ever done for it since 
 ;he world began. You will diminish fear, because the man will know 
 ;hat he will be in no danger of famine or suffering. I am here to-day 
 aleading for the cause, pleading for the cause of the man out of 
 tfork. I know something about these things, and you have got the 
 ivhole thing in your hands. The principle is here ; it has been here 
 low since Rowland Hill gave to the world the law of the post office, 
 [t is mighty interesting to know that within three years after that 
 aw Tennyson gave to the world that beautiful sentiment of his 
 ivhere he speaks of the federation of the world. In 1862 we had an 
 American Postmaster General proposing a world postal union with 
 iniform rates throughout the whole wide world; and in 1874 Dr. 
 Stephan called the statesmen of the world about him and gave to 
 ;he world our wonderful world postal union. And then we estab- 
 ished our service of 8 cents a pound. I would ask you to give us a 
 service as cheap as we had in 1874. A most interesting thing is to 
 je found in the morning press; you will see there that a colony in 
 South Africa has just proposed to build cruisers to carry the mails 
 md to do away with the $750,000 subsidy. I would like to propose 
 
670 PARCEL POST. 
 
 that, instead of carrying out my friend Mr. Baker's proposition, you 
 should see to it that we have a system of postal transports running 
 between the Atlantic and the Pacific coast. Only so can you get the 
 benefit, because the transport of to-day 
 
 The Chairman. I have put some five months now into the parcel- 
 post proposition, and I will take one thing at a time. 
 
 Mr. Coavles. The whole point is that it is one thing. You have got 
 to know where you are going. 
 
 The Chairman. I am trying to find out, Mr. Cowles. 
 
 Mr. Cowles. I present here this bill ; that is all I ask of you now, 
 if you can not do the rest of it, that you shall give to us as cheap and 
 reasonable a service within the limits of the United States as are 
 provided for foreigners doing business within the United States. 
 You should give to the farmer such a service that he can send his 
 produce easily and cheaply to the people in the towns, and so that the 
 merchant outside can do the same thing. That is our bill and one 
 thing more it gives, and that is insurance. Congress has up to this 
 time refused to give us any indemnity for damage to anything 
 which we have intrusted to its care. No bill that fails to give 
 insurance can satisfy the demands. 
 
 The Chairman. As you glean them. 
 
 Mr. Cowles. As it seems to me. I know that a parcel service 
 that does not carry insurance with it can not certainly be of much 
 account in life. If they lose anything they can not receive an in- 
 demnity. The North American Insurance Co. are now insuring 
 mail matter. European companies do up to the full value of the 
 parcels, and their common rates carry insurance in England up to 
 $10 and on the Continent up to $5. I provided in the bill for a local 
 service in the cities. We should have in our cities as cheap a service 
 as the English people have all over England. My estimates are that 
 if the average farmer's family sent out but one of those 25-pound 
 packages each way, to and from the post town, the post-office receipts 
 would be increased by over $40,000,000 a year — quite enough to pay 
 the carriers for any further use of their machinery. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee is greatly obliged to you, Mr. 
 Cowles, for coming here and giving us the advantage of your study 
 of the question. I know everybody appreciates the interest that you 
 are taking in it. 
 
 (The committee thereupon, at 6 o'clock p. m., adjourned to meet on 
 the following morning at 11 o'clock.) 
 
WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 13, 1911. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), Senator Joseph 
 L. Bristow, and Senator Nathan P. Bryan. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. RALPH 0. WELLS. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Wells, it will be necessary that you be sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will you please state your age, residence, and 
 business? 
 
 Mr. Wells. I am 32 years of age ; my residence is Hartford, Conn. ; 
 my business is that of an attorney-at-law. I am here to-day under 
 retainer to represent the State Business Mens' Association of Con- 
 necticut (Inc.), which is a State organization comprising about 37 
 local organizations in Connecticut, the local organizations repre- 
 senting practically all of the leading business men of the cities and 
 towns of any size. 
 
 The Chairman. In the State of Connecticut? 
 
 Mr. Wells. In the State of Connecticut. 
 
 The Chairman. General business ; no particular line ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. General business, although it includes in its member- 
 ship more merchants than any other class. While there are a good 
 many manufacturers and some miscellaneous men in the organization, 
 as I say, there are more merchants than any other class of men. I 
 am also representing here to-day the Merchants' Association of 
 Connecticut. 
 
 The Chairman. Are they not a member of the general organiza- 
 tion? 
 
 Mr. Wells. No. The merchants' organization is distinct, al- 
 though a good many members of the association are members of the 
 State Business Men's Association. The Merchants' Association em- 
 braces simply the large department stores in the cities and com- 
 prises a membership of 40 or 50 stores of that kind. It is a small 
 organization and strictly confined to the department stores. 
 
 The Chairman. Representing all the department stores in the 
 State of Connecticut? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Well, I can not say they represent all, necessarily, but 
 all the leading stores, or a large majority of them. 
 
 The Chairman. Forty in number ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. I should say 40 or 50 in number. I can not give you 
 the exact number. Now, representing those two associations, of 
 course, what I have to say is what the large majority of the members 
 would say themselves if they could be here, for the matter has been 
 discussed by them. , . 
 
 The Chairman. What is the membership of the larger association, 
 the State association? 
 
 Mr. Wells. From twelve to fifteen hundred. 
 
 671 
 
572 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Firms and individuals? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Firms and individuals. The members are firms and 
 not individuals. 
 
 The Chairman. But I assume they are not all firms; that there 
 may be some few individuals doing business for themselves in the 
 association. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes; they are not all firms. The business men of 
 the State of Connecticut are opposed to a parcel post unless self- 
 sustaining, for two reasons: First, because unless self-sustaining the 
 parcel post will necessarily operate as a tax upon them in order to 
 help pay for the delivery of merchandise of rival establishments. 
 
 The Chairman. In that connection, if you will pardon the inter- 
 ruption ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes. Certainly, I will be glad to be interrupted on 
 this. 
 
 The Chairman. How can you from general legislation creating an 
 opportunity that everybody may enjoy, draw a deduction that it is 
 going to be for the interests of some individual or a special class of 
 society ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. I do not think you can draw that deduction neces- 
 sarily, but, of course, the parcel post, if it furnishes transportation at 
 less than cost — and it is not self-sustaining if it does furnish trans- 
 portation at less than cost — will be taken advantage of unnecessarily. 
 
 The Chairman. But everybody has equal opportunity? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Everybody has equal opportunity to take advantage 
 of it, but it will be taken advantage of among others — by the mail- 
 order houses. Now, the local merchant does not send his packages 
 by express, for he makes his own deliveries by his own private serv- 
 ice. The mail-order house necessarily sends its packages by some 
 other service, either by mail, express, or freight; consequently the 
 merchant operating in his little locality, in his city, will not take 
 advantage of the parcel post to the same extent that the live mail- 
 order house will take advantage of it, or the manufacturer who 
 does away with the middleman will do, and who sells direct, or the 
 farmer who sells direct. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Wells, as a business man, being familiar with 
 business methods and operations, is it not your opinion that the 
 country merchant would take advantage of an increased facility pro- 
 vided it would be beneficial to him and provided that he could 
 get a delivery cheaper than the one that he has been utilizing before ? 
 Isn't that human nature and perfectly natural ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes; but unless the service is very cheap and the 
 parcel post is operated at a very considerable loss the local merchant 
 dealing with people within a comparatively small radius can fur- 
 nish his own delivery service as cheap, or cheaper, than the parcel 
 post can furnish it to him. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the country merchant's delivery service, 
 according to your experience and familiarity with the subject? Does 
 he deliver to his customers the goods he sells? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. How are the goods ordered? 
 
 Mr. Wells. The goods are ordered some times by telephone, but 
 more often by personal inspection, by sample, or by direct selection 
 of particular good=. 
 
PARCEL POST. 673 
 
 The Chairman. Well, if the farmer drives into the country town 
 and makes a purchase of a bill of goods and has his vehicle there with 
 him, he does not take the goods back with him, but the country mer- 
 chant delivers them to him. Is that your idea ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. He does in some instances. When we are speaking 
 about country merchants, just exactly what do you mean? Do you 
 mean the merchant in the city of 100,000 inhabitants, or less? 
 
 The Chairman. I would like for you to make the explanation so 
 the committee can know on what basis you are drawing your deduc- 
 tions. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes; I am talking on the basis of the merchant in 
 the cities of over five to ten thousand inhabitants and in cities up to 
 140,000 inhabitants. In Connecticut, our largest city is New Haven, 
 which has a population of about 137,000. The association which I 
 represent does not go outside of the towns of less than five or ten 
 thousand inhabitants in general, so that I am interested rather more 
 in the small-city merchant than in the country merchant. I have 
 designated them as the country merchants in a sort of a metropolitan 
 way, in the same way that a bank in a small town is called a country 
 bank, and are designated in that way from the banks of the larger 
 metropolitan centers. Now, in the city the trade with the merchant 
 is not the farmer's trade exclusively, by any means, nor to any very 
 large extent, I think ; and in a city, while a great many people carry 
 home their own parcels, a large number of other persons do not carry 
 them. 
 
 The Chairman. Taking that illustration for New Haven, are the 
 deliveries made there by each firm themselves, or do they have a 
 parcel-delivery system there. 
 
 Mr. Wells. In general they are delivered by each firm themselves; 
 in some places they are combined. 
 
 The Chairman. Don't you think there is a waste of effort and 
 duplication that might be saved ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes ; I think there is some waste and duplication, but 
 they have the matter under consideration. 
 
 The Chairman. They have it under consideration, you say? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Oh, yes. But, for instance, take a large department 
 store sending out two or three deliveries a day, with its wagons 
 loaded to capacity when they start ; you are getting pretty nearly as 
 economical a service as you can get from cooperation. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, my information, which I believe is abso- 
 lutely authentic, rather controverts that statement. I assume that 
 there are no larger stores, probably, in Hartford or New Haven than 
 there are in the City of Washington, and I know it has been dem- 
 onstrated here in Washington that by virtue of cooperation the 
 unification of the business of, say, 200 houses, the business is performed 
 under contract with the storekeeper for 75 per cent of what it costs 
 him, according to his own books in his private operations, prior to 
 entering into the cooperation plan, and, of course, there is a profit 
 below the 25 per cent actual saving, by practical demonstration here, 
 in a' period of a year. 
 
 Mr. Wells. May I inquire do you know what the cost per parcel 
 for delivery is here? 
 
 The Chairman. The president of the company, Mr. Newbold, Mho 
 appeared before the committee, stated to the committee he would be 
 
674 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
 very glad to make a contract with the Government to deliver all 
 packages within the city limits at 5 cents a parcel up to 25 pounds 
 in weight limit. 
 
 Mr. Wells. I have asked two or three department-store men to 
 weigh their parcels and count their parcels for me for a period of a 
 week. 
 
 The Chairman. In Connecticut? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes, in Connecticut ; men whom I personally knew. 
 
 The Chairman. We would like very much to get that information. 
 
 Mr. Wells. I have also asked them to furnish the statistics based 
 upon their actual computation and to figure the cost accurately. I 
 have those figures here, and I will be glad to submit them to you. 
 
 The Chairman. We are glad, indeed, to have them, and we will 
 place them in the record. 
 
 (The figures referred to follow:) 
 
 Bridgeport: 
 
 City service 
 
 Suburban service. 
 
 Derby 
 
 Hartford 
 
 New Haven 
 
 Popula- 
 tion 
 1910. 
 
 102, 054 
 
 8,991 
 98, 915 
 133, 605 
 
 Radius 
 
 of 
 delivery. 
 
 Miles. 
 
 Average 
 number 
 of pack- 
 ages per 
 week. 
 
 3,587 
 
 317 
 
 329 
 
 1,814 
 
 1,712 
 
 Average 
 weight of 
 package. 
 
 Pounds. 
 
 ■>rV 
 
 5 
 
 3tV 
 
 3 
 
 3A 
 
 Cost per 
 package. 
 
 Cents. 
 4.9 
 16.5 
 3.5 
 
 6* 
 
 6.7 
 
 Mr. Wells. I have taken, as you see, one department store in each 
 city, and the figures are figures obtained by actual count, and are as 
 nearly as possible accurate computations by actual weighing and 
 actual count. They do not, however, include any sum for rent, but 
 include the salaries of the sorting clerks in the delivery room, the 
 cost of maintenance of the wagons, and the stable and the salaries 
 of the drivers. 
 
 The Chairman. Any overhead charge at all? 
 
 Mr. Wells. No overhead charge at all. 
 
 The Chairman. No store overhead charge? 
 
 Mr. Wells. No store overhead charge. 
 
 The Chairman. But a charge on stable and feed? 
 • Mr. AVells. The things which go exclusively to that line of work. 
 Unfortunately, the man in Hartford apparently misunderstood 
 exactly what was wanted, and he has included in his figures, I see, 
 the suburban service without making a distinction which he neces- 
 sarily handles through the express companies, so that his figure is 
 high where he shows it at 6f cents. 
 
 The Chairman. You say the Hartford man's figures are high at 
 6f cents? 
 
 Mr. Wells. They are high because his radius is 50 miles, which 
 includes the suburban service, which he does not handle himself. 
 
 The Chairman. You say it was apparently high; but in reality, 
 in comparison with the others, where you take a 2-mile radius at a 
 cost of 3.5 cents, as compared with the 50-mile radius, it is a little 
 less than double the amount. I would consider it relatively low. 
 You mean, apparently high? 
 
 Mr. Wells. I mean it is higher than it would be if he had taken 
 only the local service; not that it is an excessive cost for the service 
 
PARCEL, POST. 675 
 
 which he has included, but that he has included a more expensive 
 service than I intended to have him do, as I asked them to include 
 only the local service which they handle themselves. Those figures 
 represent the lowest cost at which the merchants handling the largest 
 stores in those cities operate, and they are all Yankees. It is the 
 lowest cost at which they can get their service, and if they can reduce 
 the cost it means money in their pocket, so they have tried to get 
 the service just as cheap as possible. 
 
 The Chairman. But they never have had cooperation, although 
 they have had the matter under consideration ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. They have had the matter under consideration, but 
 they have not been able to see, apparently, sufficient profit to pay for 
 the necessary efforts to get together in it. 
 
 The Chairman. It would depend on the executive ability of the 
 man at the head of the general-delivery system. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Oh, yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you the information as to the cost of plant 
 in the way of teams, horses, and automobiles, if they have any in their 
 delivery system? What capital would be represented in this par- 
 ticular branch of this business? 
 
 Mr. Wells. No, I have not. I would be glad to get that for you 
 if you so desire. 
 
 The Chairman. We would like to have it, yes. That would be 
 interesting in the study that we are making. 1 
 
 Mr. Wells. Now, then, to come back again, I said the first reason 
 why the merchant in Connecticut opposed a parcel post was because it 
 would be more extensively used by the rival mail-order houses than 
 it would by themselves. 
 
 The Chairman. In their opinion? 
 
 Mr. Wells. In their opinion. Of course, all this is necessarily 
 in their opinion. 
 
 The Chairman. Surely. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Consequently, if the parcel post was run at a loss, was 
 not self-sustaining, it would mean that the revenue necessary to make 
 up that loss must come from somewhere else, and presumably it would 
 come from other postal revenue. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, it would come out of the pockets of the 
 people. 
 
 Mr. Wells. It would come out of the pockets of the people some- 
 where. 
 
 The Chairman. And they would not get the compensation com- 
 mensurate with the cost? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Exactly so. 
 
 The Chairman. From their individual standpoint, in their opinion. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Now, the natural place to take that revenue from 
 would be the surplus revenue, the profit gained by the Post Office 
 Department, in some other field of operation. The Post Office De- 
 partment, as you know, makes a very considerable profit upon first- 
 class mail matter. Of first-class mail matter, according to the post- 
 office statistics, roughly about 25 per cent of it consists of postal cards, 
 which is penny postage, of course. If you divide the revenue re- 
 ceived from first-class mail matter other than postal cards by two, 
 which would be done if you were paying postage at 1 cent an ounce 
 
 1 Not yet received. 
 
76 PABCEL POST. 
 
 istead of 2 cents an ounce for first-class matter, you would get a 
 gure which is only very slightly larger than the actual profit which 
 ae Government makes to-day on first-class mail. So that, even with 
 ie Rural Free Delivery Service net, and the amount which the Gov- 
 rnment now charges for first-class mail matter by reason of the 
 peration of that expense which the Government charges, even with 
 aat in force if 1-cent postage was established on all first-class matter, 
 tie volume of business would increase sufficiently so that it could be 
 perated without any loss at all, or, at any rate, it would be at only a 
 ery small loss. 
 
 Bridgeport is a city of about 102,000 inhabitants, and the merchant 
 aere who has given me his figures tells me that he spends about $4,000 
 
 year for first-class mail matter. The other merchants necessarily 
 pend a great deal for postage also, according to the size of the busi- 
 ess handled. If, therefore, they could get penny postage on first-class 
 latter, it would mean a saving of from one to two thousand dollars 
 
 year to each of them. Now, if a parcel post is established which 
 3 not self-sustaining ; if the limit of fourth-class matter is extended 
 n some basis which is not self-sustaining, or if the rates are reduced 
 o low that it does not pay its cost, then, in all probability, the day 
 fhen the first-class postage can be reduced will be postponed. Now, 
 his profit from first-class postage, as you know, is largely consumed 
 t the present time to make good the losses on the second-class mail 
 latter. That information is taken from the statistics which the 
 5 ost Office Department published in 1910 in a pamphlet entitled 
 
 Cost of Transporting and Handling Second-Class Mail Matter and 
 >f Conducting the Registry, Money-Order, and Special-Delivery 
 services." They figured the cost of second-class mail matter at about 
 73,000,000. I see in the revised tables transmitted by letter dated 
 )ecember 14, 1911, to the chairman of the commission on second- 
 lass mail matter in New York City that they have reduced that 
 stimate to $65,000,000 a year, but have not changed the revenue, so 
 hat, by the latest statistics furnished by the Post Office Department 
 he loss on second-class mail matter is about $56,000,000 a year, or 
 bout 85 per cent of the total cost of carrying that matter. 
 
 The Chairman. According to the figures of the postal department, 
 ou mean ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. According to the figures of the postal department, and 
 '. presume the postal department figures are as nearly accurate as can 
 ie obtained. The figures were obtained for the hearings of the Com- 
 aission on Second-Class Mail Matter in New York City. 
 
 The Chairman. I am not questioning the authenticity. I was 
 imply trying to ascertain what they were. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes. Now, the second-class mail matter consists 
 argely of advertising matter, not entirely, but to a considerable ex- 
 ent. Perhaps the majority of it is not advertising matter, but a 
 onsiderable portion of it is, and it is largely advertising matter of 
 ival concerns and the merchants feel that when they are paying in- 
 lirectly through the profits made on the first-class mail, a portion 
 >f the cost of carrying the advertising matter of rival stores, they 
 iught not to be asked to pay, directly or indirectly, a portion of the 
 ost of transporting the parcels. 
 
 The Chairman. Do, the merchants themselves advertise? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes ; but not generally in the magazines. 
 
PARCEL POST. 677 
 
 The Chairman. Well, don't they advertise in the newspapers? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes ; in the local newspapers, but the local newspapers 
 are delivered by boys employed by the newspapers themselves and are 
 not ordinarily carried through the mails, to any extent. 
 
 The Chairman. The mail-order houses restrict their advertising 
 principally to their catalogues, don't they? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Largely to catalogues, but also a great deal of it ap- 
 pears in magazines. 
 
 The Chairman. And they pay on" their catalogues 8 cents a pound 
 as against 1 cent a pound on second-class matter ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. You stated that the postage bill for one of the 
 Hartford firms was about $4,000 a year? 
 
 Mr. Wells. For the Bridgeport firm was about $4,000 a year on 
 first-class postage. 
 
 The Chairman. That means they send perhaps 200,000 letters ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, what number of letters, in your opinion, 
 will an average citizen not engaged in business send, under the first- 
 class mail, per annum? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Well, it depends on what the average citizen is doing. 
 Personally, I probablv mail in my office, as an attorney, practically 
 from 5 to 10 letters a day. That would be 1,500 to 3,000 a year. 
 
 The Chairman. How many letters do you suppose the farmer 
 sends and the laborer sends in a year? 
 
 Mr. Wells. From what little knowledge I have had of farmers, I 
 should say the average farmer did not probably mail more than two 
 or three letters a week, and the average laboring man rather less than 
 more. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, we will assume they send from fifty to a 
 thousand a year, as against 80,000 for the Bridgeport firm. Now, 
 this facility which the Government has created, is utilized by the 
 Bridgeport firm to the extent of several thousand per cent more than 
 the majority of our citizens utilize it. Is it not fair to give an ad- 
 vantage, if it is an advantage, which I do not concede and it does not 
 appear so to my mind, where an equal opportunity is created that 
 everybody can enjoy and it is not going to be a special privilege for 
 any individual or class, but for the sake of argument on this particu- 
 lar case, assuming that is the case. Isn't it fair to him that he should 
 have some little advantage in compensation for the other? 
 
 Mr. Wells. That the farmer should be entitled to carry his parcels 
 at less rate than cost because he mails fewer letters which bring a 
 profit? 
 
 The Chairman. If you segregate the mail matter and can make 
 distinctions so that each particular branch of one general depart- 
 ment should be self-supporting, isn't it proper that those who do use 
 or might use proportionately one class of mail more than the other 
 should have a conpensation for that commensurate with the privilege 
 of utilization that the other class enjoys? 
 
 Mr. Wells. If the parcel post can be made self -sustaining ; it it 
 
 pays its own way. , ,,,■,■ 
 
 The Chairman. Your objections would also disappear? 
 Mr. Wells. My objections, so far as the merchants as a class are 
 concerned, would disappear. Whether it is a proper governmental 
 function to go into the merchandise-carrying business is another 
 
678 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 question, but so far as my men are concerned as a class, distinct from 
 other men, I take it they could have no valid objection to a self- 
 sustaining parcel post. As citizens they might protest very properly, 
 perhaps. 
 
 The Chairman. On the basic principle of government enterprise in 
 competition with private interests? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes. However, that is a matter that would concern 
 express companies rather than my own clients, and I am holding no 
 brief for the express companies. We are fighting them most of the 
 time, on the contrary. 
 
 The Chairman. Your clients would not object to the express com- 
 panies reducing their rates 25 or 50 cents ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. No ; I think they would be highly pleased. 
 
 The Chairman. And if the Government saw fit to cause them to do 
 that, and had the power so to do, you would not object to that, either? 
 
 Mr. Wells. I think not ; no. As long as the express charges were 
 not reduced at the expense of the men I represent by making them 
 pay the loss in the actual cost of transferring the merchandise. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Have you ever examined into the powers of the 
 Government to enter into the carrying business ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. No. I have not made any study of that. I under- 
 stand, however, that an opinion has been rendered to this committee, 
 has it not, to the effect that the Government could not constitutionally 
 create a legal monopoly in the carriage of merchandise? 
 
 Senator Bryan. Not so far as I know. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Well, possibly I may be in error on that. I think there 
 might be a very grave constitutional question involved in it. How- 
 ever, I am here to argue on economic rather than on constitutional 
 grounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly continue? 
 
 Mr. Wells. The question then comes down to this: Can a parcel 
 post be established which shall be self-sustaining? Can the fourth- 
 class mail matter be extended in such a way and the rates reduced and 
 still be sustaining? I think under certain conditions it can. It can 
 if you have the constitutional power to make it a legal monopoly. 
 
 The Chairman. In case we had that power, would you favor that ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. No ; I should not, and for this reason : If you establish 
 a self-sustaining parcel post by making it a legal monopoly, if you 
 find it necessary to make it a legal monopoly in order to make it self- 
 sustaining, then obviously, in some cases at least, the person who is 
 served is probably paying more than he would have to pay if some 
 private individual or corporation was allowed to furnish the service 
 for him. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you believe in competition ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. I believe in competition. 
 
 The Chairman. You think it is feasible in your lines of business. 
 You do not believe in cooperation ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. No ; I would not say that. I believe in competition in 
 most lines of business. 
 
 The Chairman. Why make a distinction ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. There are some lines of business which are necessarily 
 monopolistic. The telephone business, for instance, is not a business 
 for competition. 
 
 The Chairman. Why? 
 
PARCEL POST. 679 
 
 Mr. Wells. Because the advantage of the telephone is the ability 
 for the person having a telephone in his house or office to talk with 
 individuals or persons having telephones in their houses or offices. 
 Now, if you have competing lines, as is the case in a large number 
 of the towns of the country, the result is you can talk with only a 
 portion of the persons who have that telephone, or you will have to 
 put in more than one telephone yourself, and when you have two or 
 three telephones I think it is a great deal of a nuisance. 
 
 The Chairman. In your opinion, is it not true that centralization 
 is the result of evolution in business, population, and in government, 
 and that the tendency is now toward cooperation, and cooperation 
 is taking the place of competition, and the competition of the future 
 will be largely intellectual, and in business it will be a competition 
 in quality and service? 
 
 Mr. Wells. I think cooperation is largely taking the place of com- 
 petition, where the situation is such that cooperation is more advan- 
 tageous and results in a lower cost. But if the Government is 
 unable to run a parcel post in competition with the express com- 
 panies, if it finds it necessary to make a legal monopoly, then the 
 reason why it can not compete with the express companies is because 
 the express companies can furnish the service, in some instances, at 
 least at a lower cost than the Government can furnish it. Then, in 
 that case, if the Government says you must employ parcel post and 
 you can not employ a private individual, the Government is forcing 
 me to send my packages by a more expensive method than I would 
 otherwise have, and it seems to me unfair and undesirable. 
 
 It seems to me desirable to permit an individual to send a package 
 in the cheapest manner in which he can. Now I will go to the ques- 
 tion of the establishment of a parcel post in competition with pri- 
 vate enterprises. One way in which a parcel post can be made self- 
 sustaining is by increasing the legal limit of weight so high and re- 
 ducing the rate so low as to make it prohibitive for the private enter- 
 prises to compete on the short hauls. Probably the rate could be 
 reduced somewhat without a loss, though probably not very mate- 
 rially, but while the legal limit of weight on packages to be carried 
 by the post office is 4 pounds, and while the post-office service is 
 in general faster and more efficient than the express service yet, as 
 a practical matter, experience shows for such service in the past that 
 the average weight of the packages which are sent as fourth-class 
 matter weigh less than a third of a pound, according to the post- 
 office figures. This shows that if you extended the legal limit of 
 weight of packages which could be carried, without reducing the cost 
 as a practical matter, it would not materially increase the average 
 weight of packages to be carried, because the average weight of pack- 
 ages now carried as fourth-class matter is only about one-twelfth 
 to one-fifth of the weight which could be carried. If all packages 
 up to 4 pounds were carried under fourth-class matter, the average 
 weight would be somewhere around 2 pounds instead of a third of 
 a pound. 
 
 The Chairman. Where do you get that information? I know 
 where you get the information relative to a third of a pound, but 
 where do you get your premises upon which you base your state- 
 ment that the average weight, if all 4-pound packages were carried 
 by the mails, the weight would be over a pound? 
 
680 PABCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Wells. That is necessarily an inference. 
 
 The Chairman. Based on what? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Based on the fact that four divided by two results in 
 two. Of course there are more smaller packages than large ones. 
 
 The Chairman. I want to get your data on which you draw that 
 deduction. 
 
 Mr. Wells. There is no available data from which you can get a 
 concrete deduction of that kind, so far as I know. 
 
 The Chairman. It is shown in 11-pound packages that the aver- 
 age weight is about 3^ pounds — that is, where the 11-pound packages 
 are carried. 
 
 Mr. Wells. That is foreign? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; and under the international convention. 
 Now, I have also had two statements in reference to the aver- 
 age weight of express packages; one was 34 pounds and the other 
 36, and I believe them both to be about right. Those figures are given 
 as the average of express matter carried, amounting, I think, to 
 some 250,000,000 pieces annually, so that an increase in the present 
 4-pound limit of weight in fourth-class mail matter up to 11 pounds 
 is not going to bring us all the express matter by any means. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Not by a long way. 
 
 The Chairman. Even if we gave as favorable or better rates than 
 the express companies or the express companies did not meet the rate. 
 Presumably the express companies would meet any rate where it was 
 to their advantage to do so, without legislation creating a monopoly, 
 against which you have filed your protest. 
 
 Mr. Wells. I might say, however, in connection with that, that I 
 have worked during summers while I was going through college 
 and through law school for some insurance companies and also for 
 one of the local banks, and I know from personal experience, as a 
 matter of practice, that packages weighing more than 2 pounds are 
 sent by express to local points — that is, points relatively local, because 
 expressage is 25 cents and when an article sent by mail is more than 
 2 pounds the postage would be more. 
 
 The Chairman. Under the fourth-class rate? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes; say 2 pounds, that would bring it up to 32 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, it would be if it was 32 ounces, and of course 
 the express shipper would save 7 cents. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes. In other words, as a practical matter the business 
 man would have his particular line of business and send a package 
 by express or mail, according to which would cost him less. That is 
 pure common sense. 
 
 Now, unless the parcel post is either made a local monoply, or 
 unless the rates are such as to make it prohibitive for all except 
 comparatively small bundles, then it seems to me that you can not 
 establish any competition with express companies and a parcel post 
 which shall be selfsustaining and cheap, and for this reason, prin- 
 cipally because 
 
 The Chairman. Just in that connection : Do the express companies 
 operate at actual cost? 
 
 Mr. Wells. No; of course not. The express companies make a 
 profit. 
 
 The Chairman. Large or small? 
 
PARCEL POST. 681 
 
 Mr. Wells. Based on their capitalization of profit, it is quite large. 
 I do not know the figures as to the volume of business done and 
 whether the profit is large as compared with the volume of business 
 they perform. You probably know that better than I? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; we are in the process of collating all infor- 
 mation on those points now, and the Interstate Commerce Commis- 
 sion has, for about a year and a half, been studying that problem. 
 Assuming that their profits, which I think we are safe in assuming, 
 are proportionately quite large, if a competitive lower rate was 
 adopted by the Government, the express companies would lower their 
 rate on a competitive basis, figuring the profit which to their mind 
 was commensurate with the service, would they not ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes ; they would lower their rates, presumably if their 
 rates are now extortionate. 
 
 The Chairman. I. did not say they were extortionate. I am not 
 passing upon a matter on which the information has not been sub- 
 mitted and studied. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Well, I am not passing on that either, but if the 
 express companies are now making a larger profit than it is necessary 
 to make to keep on in business, and a competitor comes in at a lower 
 cost, the express company will naturally reduce its charges and keep 
 on doing so until they will get down to a point where it will not be 
 worth while to continue in business. 
 
 The Chairman. And the community would be benefited to that 
 extent ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes; if the express charges are unreasonable, however. 
 Of course there is a method now provided by the Interstate Com- 
 merce Commission, and in many States by State commissions, whereby 
 express charges on complaint may be reduced by operation of law. I 
 take it there are two schemes of parcel post under consideration, and 
 so far as I take it there is no particular bill before this committee at 
 the present time. They are two different plans ; one is for something 
 in the analogy of a zone system, perhaps one rate for parcels which 
 are sent out from the same post office at which they are received, or 
 possibly a zone system arranged on the basis of distance, one price 
 for a distance of 50 miles, one for 100 miles, and another for 200 miles. 
 I take it there is also a flat rate, which is the system which has been 
 adopted by the Post Office Department heretofore in the manage- 
 ment of its affairs. I take it that the advocates of the parcel post 
 for the main part prefer the flat-rate system ; it is much simpler in 
 operation, and it would be a great deal less complicated to the average 
 man who wants to send a few parcels by the post. 
 
 The Chairman. Where would the complication exist, in increasing 
 the weight from 4 pounds to 11 pounds, and decreasing the postage, 
 establishing a flat rate for the country generally, a reduced rate for 
 a zone, say, of 100 miles, a radius around every post office and a 
 still further reduced rate for all packages initiating upon and de- 
 livered on the rural route? Where would be the complication? 
 
 Mr. Wells. The farmer who wants to mail his goods would have 
 to sit down and figure the distance his goods are going? 
 
 The Chairman. Every post master would have a map showing the 
 towns which would come within a 100-mile radius, and he would 
 soon be able to make a list of the towns falling within that 
 zone. Every farmer knows the rural route that he is living on. The 
 
 OIOAK imr 3 19 7 
 
682 PARCEL- POST. 
 
 postmaster certainly knows the rural route emanating from his post 
 office and I fail to see where there would be any great complication 
 in the adoption of a system of that kind, provided it was determined 
 from other view points that it is desirable and practicable. I do not 
 see the complication that would arise. 
 
 Mr. Wells. If the farmer out in the country wants to send a pack- 
 age to Sam Jones in the town of Smith ville, we will say 
 
 The Chairman. Which is on his rural route, he knows what the 
 rate is, just the same as he knows to-day. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Perhaps it is not on his route? 
 
 The Chairman. That is a matter, if he has not the knowledge it 
 can be determined by the postmaster or the post office through which 
 he has to operate. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes, and he has to go to the trouble of obtaining that 
 information ? 
 
 The Chairman. It is not much trouble, commensurate with the 
 advantage that he believes he will enjoy. Otherwise he would not 
 utilize the service. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Well, I think if you tried to establish a zone system 
 it would be found there was enough trouble connected with it to 
 make it very unpopular, at least. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that is an inference. But the particular 
 
 Soint we were discussing, was the complications that would arise, 
 if course, if you had an indefinite number of zones you could very 
 readily make it so complicated that it be impracticable, but with a 
 limited number of zones, the particular study that I present to you, I 
 wanted to get your ideas as to where the complications would arise. 
 To my mind it is extremely simple. 
 
 Mr. Wells. If you take so simple an illustration as you suggest, I 
 do not think it is very seriously complicated, but if you carry out the 
 theory upon which that is based and take a number of varying zones, 
 why of course as the number of zones increases, the complexity of the 
 situation likewise increases. 
 
 The Chairman. You are perfectly right. There is no difference 
 of opinion on that. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Probably the simpler zone system would be one 
 charging for packages which are to be delivered within the radius 
 of the post office where they are received, so, if you mailed a package 
 addressed to Washington you would know the zone rates of postage, 
 and if you mailed it to another town you would know it is another 
 rate. 
 
 That would be quite simple and I do not think would result in any 
 serious difficulty in that way. But there are these two different sys- 
 tems, I take it, before the committee. Now, take the flat-rate system 
 first. 
 
 The Chairman. With no zones? 
 
 Mr. Wells. With no zones, which, I take it, is the system desired 
 by the leading advocates of the parcel post, or by most of them. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not know that. The committee is trying to 
 obtain as many views as possible, and form its own conclusions with 
 reference to that. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Well, whether or no that is the system, it is generally 
 preferred. It is the system which is in accord with the policy of 
 the Government heretofore in its operations of the Post Office Depart* 
 
PARCEL, POST. 683 
 
 ment. Take that system first, my thesis, I think, which I started 
 to demonstrate, was that the competitive parcel post, a parcel post 
 which was competing with the express companies could not be estab- 
 lished 
 
 _ The Chairman. You would make it then only partially competi- 
 tive. You do not make it competitive with the freight rates? 
 
 Mr. Wells. No; simply with the express service. The freight is 
 slower than the express, and the express and mail run more into com- 
 petition than the freight does with the mails. 
 
 The Chairman. Isn't the great bulk of the business of the United 
 States carried by freight? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes; because there is no haste about the great bulk. 
 It is even truer if you make it competitive with freight. If you try 
 to establish a parcel-post system at rates sufficiently low to compete 
 with the express companies, or the express companies and the freight 
 rate, then my claim is that your parcel post will not be self sustain- 
 ing, necessarily and for this reason : Because, if your parcel post is 
 being operated at a flat rate, the express company or the freight com- 
 pany is not being operated at a flat rate, but on the zone system, on 
 the distance system, the express company can carry a package between 
 centers of our population from New York to Boston, between which 
 centers the express business would be very large and the transporta- 
 tion simply means putting it on a car and sending a carload at a 
 time — the cheaper rate than it can between the rural points where it 
 collects a package from 8 or 10 miles out in the country, brings 
 it in to the post office and takes it 8 or 10 miles out in the country in 
 another direction. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, how do you explain the fact that the express 
 companies will make the same rate charges per pound, of 16 cents, 
 from New York to Boston, as they do from New York to Denver ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Will make the same rate ? Well, I was not aware that 
 they would. That has not been my experience with the express 
 companies. 
 
 The Chairman. I will say the rate, for instance, as shown on 
 one table on a pound, prepaid, is 16 cents for 54 miles, or 91, or 167, 
 302, 415, 497, 765, 1,014, 1,500, or 2,100 miles. 
 
 Mr. Wells. How about 4,000? 
 
 The Chairman. What is your 4,000 ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. I do not know. I am not familiar with your table. 
 
 The Chairman. I did not say anything about 4,000. 
 
 Mr. Wells. I was asking if that went down indefinitely. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, they have to stop when they get to the limit 
 of the country. 
 
 Mr. Wells. The postal service, however, does not stop within the 
 continental limits of the United States. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I wanted to get your explanation of the 
 apparent inconsistency of a flat rate, regardless of distance, when they 
 have on carloads of freight, schedules differently arranged as to cost. 
 
 Mr. Wells. I do not know what the reason for that is. It seems 
 to me illogical. 
 
 The Chairman. How about the cent-an-ounce rate on fourth-class 
 
 matter. 
 Mr. Wells. That also seems to me, to a certain extent, illogical. 
 
 In fact, any flat rate is. 
 
684 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. It is 16 cents for a pound. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, by coincidence, the express companies have 
 the same rates, regardless of those distances, which I have specified. 
 
 Mr. Wells. In making an express rate, an express rate is made 
 largely, I presume on the same basis as freight rates, on the question 
 of what traffic will bear, rather than on the cost. 
 
 The Chairman. And the ability to get the business? 
 
 Mr. Wells. And the ability to get the business; of course, that 
 enters in. But it is quite clear, I think, that the cost of the business 
 to the express company must vary according to the distance carried, 
 not directly according to distance carried, but more or less according 
 to the distance carried, and also must vary according to the distance 
 which it is necessary to carry the parcel by team from the center at 
 which it is delivered or to the center where it is first received. That 
 is, to carry a bundle from the station in Washington to the station 
 in Baltimore is one manner of easy transportation, but to bring the 
 bundle in from Mount Vernon and to carry it to some place lying out 
 of Baltimore, and upon bringing it here by team, carting it out of 
 Baltimore by team would add materially to the cost of transportation 
 to the express company. Now, that being so, the express company 
 that has a flat rate, or the Government, if it has a flat rate, makes its 
 profit on the short-haul business and on the business it has carried 
 between centers of population. The rural business and the long-haul 
 business must necessarily cost more. Therefore, if there is a flat rate, 
 either that is carried at a loss, or, at least, is carried with a less profit. 
 
 The Chairman. Supposing in your study your cost of operation 
 was 80 per cent for collection and delivery and 20 per cent for trans- 
 portation. That would put a different viewpoint on it, wouldn't it? 
 
 Mr. Wells. No ; I think not. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, your distance deductions would be based 
 on 20 per cent of your cost, that being the allotment as to that 
 actual part of your expense. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes; distance deductions count less, and that is true 
 in the Post Office Department, where railroad transportation is by 
 no means the largest element of cost. But, if I may call your atten- 
 tion again to the thesis it was that the two elements entered, not 
 merely distance of transportation by rail, but also distance trans- 
 portations by team or carrier. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose you already have a machinery in ex- 
 istence not running to its full peak. You have a margin then that 
 you could take up. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. That is desirable from a business standpoint? 
 
 Mr. Wells. It is always desirable to operate your team or your 
 load to full capacity, of course. 
 
 The Chairman. Supposing, then, that you have 42,000 rural routes 
 to-day, 41,900 of which could actually carry four times the load they 
 do, so that there is an apparent waste of 75 per cent? 
 
 Mr. Wells. If that is the case there would seem to be an apparent 
 waste. 
 
 The Chairman. You would favor the utilization of that, wouldn't 
 vou, if it were feasible ? It would be desirable ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes. 
 
PARCEL POST. 685 
 
 The Chairman. I mean purely from a business standpoint, leav- 
 ing out these other, propositions ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes; but I question whether that is the fact; that you 
 could put in a parcel post without increasing your facilities on 
 your rural routes ; without increasing the weight of your equipment. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The officers in charge of the immediate divisions 
 of the Post Office Department — would their opinion be better on 
 that point than anybody else's ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes ; certainly. Of course we are interested not only 
 in rural delivery service, but in the city service ; a large part of mail 
 matter begins and terminates in the city by the city carrier. I asked 
 the postmaster who came out to my residence the other day how much 
 of a load he started off with in the morning, and he said he thought 
 about 800 letters. Now, under post-office statistics letters weigh 
 about 45 to the pound, so his load would weigh a fraction under 20 
 pounds when he started. Now, if instead of carrying these 800 let- 
 ters he is carrying 400 letters and 400 packages, it is obvious he can 
 not do it. 
 
 The Chairman. Why did you take that as an illustration when 
 demonstration shows that 3-| pounds is the average package of 
 merchandise ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Well, take 3i pounds. If he has 400 packages weigh- 
 ing 3£ pounds on an average, and he has 400 letters, he has a load 
 which he can not carry. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose the person had to call at the post office? 
 
 Mr. Wells. If you are going to have a parcel post with your 
 ordinary post-office business in your cities and the receiving party 
 has to call for the package at the office, you are not providing an 
 equal service. 
 
 The Chairman. How about the opposition? 
 
 Mr. Wells. I think the opposition would be much less if we felt 
 it would stop there. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a matter of detail to be worked out ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose the present rule, as to the delivery of 
 packages, should be continued; small packages that weigh an ounce 
 or two or three ounces should be delivered and as to those that are 
 heavy the postmaster dropped a notice to the addressee that a pack- 
 age which is too heavy for delivery awaited him at the post office. 
 That works nicely now. Suppose that was continued. You would 
 not burden your city carrier, would you ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. No. Not so much so ; certainly not. Even with that 
 rule in operation we will notice at this time of the year that as 
 Christmas approaches that the carrier's speed decreases, and as 
 Christmas Day approaches he gets an express wagon to help him out. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, that is very unimportant, for that can be 
 handled by getting an expressman. That has to be clone now? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes ; it has to be done now. 
 
 The Chairman. And the department is able to handle it? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes. It is a proper thing to do. I was simply sug- 
 gesting if you inaugurate a parcel post by which packages in large 
 numbers are carried, so that instead of having a large number of 
 packages carried at Christmas time, as at present, you are having 
 them carried in large numbers all the year round. Therefore, you 
 would have to have an expressman all the year round. 
 
686 PABCEL. POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Don't you think the department officials who 
 handle those questions are competent to judge, and their judgment 
 will be proper as a matter of business management ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes ; I should think it would be excellent. 
 
 The Chairman. Don't you think the department could work out 
 that part of it without any serious inconvenience to the public or 
 detriment to the department ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. I think perhaps they could; but if the department 
 came to the conclusion they would carry parcels only between the 
 post office, and the farmer who lives four or five miles out in the 
 country wants to mail his butter or eggs, he has to come in to the 
 post office; and the consumer, the man of wealth, who wants fancy 
 butter or eggs, he, too, would have to come after his packages. I do 
 not think you would have a popular parcel post, though it might be. 
 
 The Chairman. Then it would not interfere with your clients' 
 business ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. I do not think it would hurt my clients a bit, that kind 
 of a parcel post. But that is not what I understand to be the intent 
 or the desire of the advocates of a parcel post. They want a parcel 
 post which will collect for the individual and carry parcels for him, 
 not only to the post office, but to the addressee directly from the post 
 office. Now, that I say can not be established on a self-sustaining 
 basis in competition with the express company at a flat rate, because 
 the express companies will take the short haul and the profitable 
 business. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I do not disagree with you there at all. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, will you go on and state your objections, 
 your demonstrations to your opposition to a zone establishment ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Simple zone establishment or a complicated zone estab- 
 lishment? 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the more complicated the greater the ob- 
 jection. Say, to a simple zone establishment. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Take the simplest case where parcels are received and 
 delivered by the post office, of receipts at one rate, and where all 
 other parcels are sent out at a flat rate. 
 
 The Chairman. Take for the sake of illustration: Suppose you 
 had one rate for rural routes, another rate for the 100-mile zone 
 radius, and another rate for the United States proper, and another 
 rate for insular possession. 
 
 Mr. Wells. All right. Now, when you leave your zone of 100 
 miles and go from that to the end of the continent of the United 
 States, you are establishing a flat rate for that extensive zone. The 
 express companies will take so much of that business as is short hauls 
 and profitable, and will leave the long haul and the unprofitable 
 business to the Government. I do not mean, necessarily, as between 
 short haul and the long haul the long haul is necessarily the less 
 profitable. It is not always less profitable, because it depends more 
 on the question of where you are going to deliver your parcels. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, whether it is to go to the addressee or 
 stop at the post office. That is the key ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes; that is the key, I think. The express company 
 will take the business betwen the centers of population as they do 
 now, and leave to the post office the rural business, which to a large 
 extent is not profitable, and which the express companies do not 
 undertake now. 
 
PARCEL POST. 687 
 
 The Chairman. Well, 80 per cent of the cost of the transportation 
 is the same whether the collection is made in Baltimore and the de- 
 livery in Washington, or whether the collection is made in San Fran- 
 cisco and delivery in New York, is it not? 
 
 Mr. Wells. The railroad transportation is only about 20 per cent 
 of the cost. 
 
 The Chairman. Then I say, 80 per cent of the cost is the same no 
 matter where the concentration or the collection may be and the 
 delivery made. 
 
 Mr. Wells. No; I think not. 
 
 The Chairman. Where is the distinction or difference? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Because in your delivery between Baltimore and 
 Washington the railroad charge may bear 10 or 15 per cent to the 
 cost of delivery; whereas the cost of railroad transportation from 
 Washington to San Francisco would necessarily be larger than the 
 cost of railroad transportation from Washington to Baltimore, and 
 therefore it will bear a higher proportion to the cost of delivery, 
 provided the cost of delivery is the same in both instances. 
 
 The Chairman. But you have to go on the doctrine of averages, 
 and you can not take your specific case. If the Post Office Depart- 
 ment makes the statement that in the cost of handling mail matter 
 20 per cent is transportation and 80 per cent cost in collection and 
 delivery, then your study on your zone basis has got to be restricted 
 to the estimate 20 per cent of the transaction, has it not ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. No; I think not. That is true as an average, but 
 suppose it costs 5 cents to cart an article from the station in Wash- 
 ington to the station in Baltimore, but 10 cents from the station in 
 Washington to the station in San Francisco. Now, if you establish 
 a 7-cent rate in both cases, the express company will carry the article 
 from Washington to Baltimore for 6 cents and make a profit of 1 
 cent and allow the Government to carry the package from Washing- 
 ton to San Francisco at a loss of 3 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not think that there is any doubt in the 
 mind of the committee that private enterprise will not do business 
 in competition with the Government or anybody else where it is 
 plain they can not make a profit. But the point I wanted to get was, 
 whether the study from a distance standpoint should not be restricted 
 to the estimated average cost of transportation of mail, rather than 
 to the cost of collection and delivery, because the cost of collection 
 and delivery must be the same in any locality over the country. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes; but in determining whether or not the Govern- 
 ment will get all the business or whether it will get only the short- 
 haul business or the long-haul business, I do not think that you can 
 properly assume that the relation of the cost of railroad transpor- 
 tation to the other cost of handling is the same in the short-haul 
 business as it is in the long-haul business, because it is not. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, there is force in that statement, but you 
 have to take in your conclusion the activity of these enormous routes ; 
 you have to work on the doctrine of averages. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Very good. Taking up the doctrine of averages, it is 
 demonstrated by the post-office figures that the express companies 
 do, as a matter of fact, handle the short-haul business on small parcels 
 and leave the longer business to the Government, because on fourth- 
 
688 PARCEL POST. 
 
 class matter the average haul is 689 miles, whereas on first-class 
 matter it is only about 500 miles, showing that the Government is 
 compelled to haul packages farther on the average than their letters, 
 simply because somebody else takes the short haul. 
 
 The Chairman. On the average? 
 
 Mr. Wells. On the average. So, if you establish a flat rate, either 
 within or without a zone, to a point 100 miles away from the rest of 
 the country, or if you establish it to a point 250 miles away, you are 
 going to get within that zone, within that circle, or within that area 
 between the two circles, a long haul and a short haul, and if the aver- 
 age is such as to pay the cost of transportation and the cost of 
 transportation and the cost of handling, providing the Government 
 handles the entire business, then the express company will take the 
 short-haul business and it will be carried at a profit and they will 
 leave the Government the long-haul business, which will be carried 
 at a loss. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; and we can not legislate against human 
 nature. 
 
 Mr. Wells. If you do the legislation would probably have no effect, 
 as in the past. It seems to me that even in a zone system a parcel 
 post established at a rate to compete with the express companies, 
 which would undertake to compete with the express companies, 
 would result in increasing the average length of the haul and leave 
 to the express companies the profitable business, and placing upon the 
 Government the unprofitable, or the long-haul business and rural 
 free-delivery business. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why would the rural-delivery business be un- 
 profitable? I can not understand that. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Well, for this reason : The cost of delivering parcels 
 depends upon the number of persons to whom you are going to deliver 
 a parcel out of your load in the length of distance. If you have to 
 send a man with a parcel 10 miles it is going to cost you pretty nearly 
 10 times as much as if he could make 10 other stops on the way out. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose he is going to stop anyway? 
 
 Mr. Wells. If he is going, and has the equipment, and has to stop ; 
 then if he has to carry the one package the additional cost of carrying 
 the other nine is not very large, but if you take your rural-delivery 
 service as it now exists, the little dinky wagon, bicycle riders, and 
 riders, in case some of the men who are carrying on express business 
 on the side on their own account 
 
 Senator Bristow. Which ought to be prohibited, and which was 
 until recently. 
 
 Mr. Wells. But which, if prohibited, will mean that it will require 
 more pay for their services. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Not at all. They never had it until recently, 
 and they are getting good pay now. It is only because there is not 
 a facility for this service to be rendered that this demand has come, 
 and now these Federal employees are permitted to carry side lines, 
 and no other Federal employee is. Why should not the Government 
 do it itself? 
 
 The Chairman. The granting of the privilege was for the service 
 of the community and not for an increased compensation for the 
 individual performing the service. 
 
PARCEL POST. 689 
 
 Mr. Wells. Your suggestion, I take it, Senator Bristow, is substan- 
 tially that of Mr. Kindel in this little pamphlet, and he put it this 
 way. He says: 
 
 The equipage of the Rural Free Delivery Service of to-day consists of 
 wagons and horses. The average load of each wagon, as it leaves the office to 
 carry the mail along the route is 25 pounds. Let us make the load not 25 
 pounds but 1,250 pounds. The post office would then reap a profit and make 
 1-cent letter postage possible, instead of registering a loss and a deficit of 
 millions annually. 
 
 Now, I take it, that is your suggestion. 
 
 Senator Bristow. No; that is not my suggestion at all. 
 
 Mr. Wells. That is an extreme instance. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It is a wholly improbable thing. 
 
 Mr. Wells. I think it is rather improbable myself. Suppose you 
 do materially increase the load. Haven't you got to increase the 
 weight equipment he now has on the two-wheeled gig with a horse. 
 
 The Chairman. That is only operating at 25 per cent of its present 
 load. You do not have to increase your equipment until you increase 
 your load 300 per cent, do you? 
 
 Mr. Wells. No; if your rural-delivery man was operating on an 
 average of only 25 per cent of his present equipment. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that is our information from the best 
 obtainable figures. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Would it be fair to establish a parcel post for the 
 rural delivery which you do not establish also for the city delivery? 
 
 The Chairman. That is a matter for Congress to determine. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Of course, all of these matters are for Congress to 
 determine. 
 
 The Chairman. These matters are now under consideration. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You say it is fair. You are a business man 
 opposing a parcel post because you think it against the interests of 
 the parties you represent. If in your business you could put more 
 work on the number of employees, whereby they could secure returns 
 for the business, without any additional expense, and it would work 
 in perfect harmony and accord with the other parts of your business, 
 wouldn't you do it? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes; certainly. But my clients usually find as they 
 increase the volume of their business they also have to increase their 
 equipment and number of employee?. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Because your clients do not have 40,000 em- 
 ployees who are not earning 25 per cent of what they could earn if 
 they had the volume of business to handle. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Exactly so. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, when you find this condition here, why do 
 you object to the Government doing what the ordinary common- 
 sense business man, would do, when it is also rendering a desirable 
 service to the community it is serving? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Well, as you put it, it sounds more or less reasonable, 
 and yet the Government is established not for money-making pur- 
 poses, but to serve the public, and if it is to serve the public it should 
 serve all the public equally. 
 
 Senator Bristow. All the public on the rural route equally ; yes. 
 
 Mr. Wells. If it is going to deliver to the man who lives 10 miles 
 out from the post office, it is not serving the man who lives 1 mile 
 from the post office equally with the man who lives 10 miles out from 
 
690 PAHCEL, POST. 
 
 the post office unless it delivers packages to the man who lives 1 mile 
 from the office. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Then you insist if it is put on the rural routes it 
 ought to be put on generally ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes. If it is put on the rural route. I think as a 
 matter of equality and justice it ought to be put on the city route. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Then if it is unreasonable on the rural routes, 
 everything else has to go with it? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes. Then if the rural route men are not working 
 beyond twenty -five per cent of their limit, the city carrier would have 
 more than he could handle. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You have to employ more carriers and charge a 
 fee for doing that. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes. 
 
 Senator Beistow. For a general parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes. You not only have to employ more carriers, but 
 more teams, horses and wagons. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Well, but charge enough to make up that ex- 
 pense. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Then you have to have more floor space and you in- 
 crease the expense all along. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Of course the postal officials understand all that. 
 They could give us what the additional cost would be in the cities, 
 and fix the rates to be charged and we should undertake to meet that 
 expense. 
 
 Mr. Wells. As I suggested, if you establish a general parcel post, 
 which would work with equality to all and would be self-sustaining, 
 I do not think that my clients as a class would object to it, but they 
 do object to a nonsustaining parcel post, and they do object to a 
 parcel post which is generally desired by people who desire parcel 
 post. A cheap rate, which would make it possible to carry parcels 
 a great deal cheaper than the express companies carry them now, is 
 not competition with the express companies because the express com- 
 panies will take the profitable business and leave the unprofitable 
 business to the Government. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I am not in favor of establishing a parcel post 
 that would not sustain itself, and I think the department and the com- 
 mittee will be entirely able to work out a system that will carry all 
 the expense; I do not think there is any doubt about that, and I 
 think the purpose of the department and the committee both is to do 
 that, without any doubt. None of us want a parcel post that will 
 be a burden. We want it to be a benefit not only to the revenues of 
 the department, but to the community served, and we are not antici- 
 pating one that would not sustain itself. 
 
 Now, in regard to the long and short haul and the zone system, 
 Senator Bourne spoke of a very simple zone system. Suppose we 
 enlarged that, and instead of having a radius of 100 miles we make 
 a radius of 50 miles ; the next will be a radius of 150, the next 400, 
 and the next will be 1,000, and the next 2,000, and the next 3,000, 
 which would make six or seven zones radiating from each post office. 
 Now do you think that would eliminate this condition as to the long 
 and short haul which the express companies, it is now said, are taking 
 advantage of? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Largely, but not entirely, because between the limit of 
 one zone and the limit of the next you still have a long and short h*ul. 
 
PAKCEL POST. 691 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, that will be reduced to a minimum. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes; the larger the number of zones the more that 
 would be reduced. That would not, however, eliminate the matter 
 of collections. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is the collections where ? 
 
 Mr. Wells. The local collections. 
 
 Senator Bristow. As I said before on the question of collections, 
 suppose it remains as it is now, when the package is large it is not 
 delivered by the carrier, but the party who is to receive it goes to the 
 post office for it, and where the packages are heavy and cumbersome, 
 as some of them are, the party who sends the package delivers it to 
 the office. It is only the incidental stray packages that are put in 
 boxes. Take the largest patrons of the mail ; they deliver their stuff 
 to the station as a rule, so that the delivery of the package at either 
 end is not where the very heavy expense of delivery comes in. It is 
 the delivery of the first-class mail that makes the excessive expense 
 of collection and delivery. It costs much more to deliver first-class 
 mail than fourth-class mail. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Per package? 
 
 Senator Bristow. As a matter of fact it does, or second-class mail, 
 either. The newspapers deliver their mail to the car, and the collectors 
 do not collect the newspapers except in cases of very small ones. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Well, the Government figures show that the total cost 
 per piece for first-class matter is 1.2 cents and for fourth-class matter 
 is 2.568 cents. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, I do not think they can get any accurate 
 information as to the first and fourth class or as to the first and second 
 class mail; in fact, I know they can not. That is an estimate, of 
 course. It can not be anything else because there is no division kept, 
 none whatever. But, as a matter of fact, the large papers of the mails, 
 those who furnish the tonnage, as we might say, deliver their mail to 
 the car and not to the post-office carrier. 
 
 Mr. Wells. That is true, and yet the second-class matter, which is 
 almost all delivered at that rate, costs the Government to carry per 
 package, 1.7 cents, which is more than for first-class mail. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I think I can demonstrate that is a mistake, and 
 I have undertaken to do it on more than one occasion. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Well, I can not very well go back of the figures pro- 
 vided by the Post Office Department. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, I will challenge those figures. 
 
 Mr. Wells. It seems to me that the cost of delivery must increase 
 as the weight of the package increases, not directly, but more or less 
 in proportion to its weight. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But we do not deliver heavy packages now. 
 Suppose we do not deliver them afterwards? 
 
 Mr. Wells. If you do not deliver them afterwards, I think you 
 will have a parcel post that is relatively harmless. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Then you would not object to it? 
 
 Mr. Wells. I don't say that I would not object to it on behalf of 
 my clients. I don't know what their attitude would be, but it does 
 not seem to me to be the kind of a parcel post these advocates want. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The objection to the parcel post by your clients 
 is largely due to the fact that they anticipate that this will be a flat 
 rate, whereby a package would be carried a distance of 3,000 miles 
 for the same charge as for 20 miles. 
 
692 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Largely, but not entirely. My clients object to it even 
 on the zone system, and for this reason of course, their objection as a 
 class is based upon the fear of the mail-order house which would 
 come into stronger competition with them. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Suppose any one of 'your clients, within a radius 
 of 50 miles of his office, had a rate of 5 cents, while the rate from 
 Chicago to the town where your client is located would be 10 cents. 
 Your client within his own zone of the community where he lives 
 would have the advantage which nature gives him, would he not? 
 
 Mr. Wells. No ; I think not materially, and for this reason : The 
 mail-order house would have its representatives in the city. As I 
 say, we have a city of 100,000 inhabitants, and the mail-order house 
 would have its representative there collect his orders during the day 
 and send them to the mail-order house. The mail-order house would 
 take all of those orders and combine them into a single package, per- 
 haps 50 or 100 pounds, and send them by express back to the agent. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They ship by freight now. 
 
 Mr. Wells. They ship by freight now in large bulk, or express. 
 Now, then, the agent in the local town will be able to take advantage 
 of this cheap local rate and mail those packages from the local post 
 office to the consumer. 
 
 Senator Beistow. That is, the agent there would have exactly the 
 same opportunity that your client has. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes. 
 
 Senator Beistow. No advantage at all. 
 
 Mr. Wells. No advantage so far as rates were concerned, but of 
 course the mail-order house has the advantage over the smaller mer- 
 chant in that he can carry larger stock and can do with a smaller 
 margin of profit. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Of course you do not expect us to take that 
 away from them. That they have now, and it hasn't anything to do 
 with a parcel post. 
 
 Mr. Wells. That is true. But what we object to is your giving 
 transportation of merchandise to the mail-order house at less than 
 cost. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Well, but we are not going to do that. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Well, if you don't do that, I say my men as a class 
 haverno valid objection. 
 
 The Chairman . Your whole objection is to the Government doing 
 business at a loss. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes ; particularly carrying merchandise at a loss. 
 
 Senator Beistow. I absolutely concur with you on that. 
 
 Mr. Wells. Because I do not think you can establish a parcel 
 post that will be popular and put it on a self-sustaining basis. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that all, Mr. Wells? 
 
 Mr. Wells. Yes; there is just one more distinction I would like 
 to bring in ; that is, we carry second-class matter at a loss to-day, but 
 the reason for it is the fact that it is merely educational in its nature, 
 and it is proper to tax the community to educate the members in 
 the community, but when you come to the carriage of merchandise, 
 that is not educational in its nature. The reasons that apply to 
 second-class matter do not apply to fourth class. 
 
 The Chaieman. We are very much obliged to you for the views 
 you have presented to us. 
 
TESTIMONY OF MS. PILKINGTON— Resumed. 
 
 (Previous testimony was on pp. 027-645.) 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Pilkington, the committee would be glad to 
 have you resume your testimony of yesterday. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Now, Senator, I hardly know where to begin this 
 morning. 
 
 The Chairman. You know where you left off yesterday ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. We were on the question of the misrepresentation 
 of advertising yesterday, and I rather took it from your inquiry, and 
 from other members of the committee, that you were interested in 
 that phase of the question, and if that is the condition I have some 
 other matters along that line that I can submit. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, if you will, we will be glad to have them. 
 I will say that we can give you 25 minutes which you can utilize 
 according to your own ideas as to the best method of accomplishing 
 what you desire in the presentation of your views. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Some member of the committee asked me yester- 
 day what was included in the indictment of Sears, Roebuck & Co. by 
 the United States Government. I find that I have a printed copy 
 of that indictment with me, and I would be glad to present it to the 
 committee, and they may do whatever they wish with it. 
 
 The Chairman. If you will just file that with the committee. Do 
 you wish it returned ? x 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. No, sir. I do not care particularly about that. 
 Now, I have before me a copy of a publication called " The Success- 
 ful Merchant," published in Chicago, in which are given facsimile 
 reproductions of an advertisement of the firm of Lincoln-Leonard & 
 Co., located in the city of Chicago, bearing on the question of mis- 
 representation of advertising. I want to read a portion of this 
 advertisement. 
 
 The Chairman. Would it not be well to just mark that and leave 
 it with the committee ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Well, if that is the wish of the committee I am 
 perfectly willing to do that. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it short ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes. The advertisement begins by saying: 
 
 Men's complete outfits. Fine navy-blue, wool, serge suits, swell-striped, 
 worsted trousers, and dandy safety razor, $4.95. 
 
 In other words, a person is offered this wool serge suit, with extra 
 worsted trousers, and a dandy safety razor for $4.95. The adver- 
 tisement then goes on to say : 
 
 Until they are gone we will sell 15,000 year-around weight, navy-blue, wool 
 serge men's suits at $4.95, and, as a premium and advertisement, we will give 
 free with each suit at $4.95 a pair of fine, fancy striped worsted trousers, and 
 if you order within 30 days we will throw in, as a special premium with the suit 
 and extra trousers at $4.95, a highly nickeled, full-size safety razor, guaranteed 
 to shave as perfectly as any $5 safety razor, regardless of name or make. 
 
 ' Copy not certified ; hence not reproduced. 
 
 693 
 
694 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. I don't think there is any necessity of going further 
 with that. What inference do you draw from that ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Simply along the question we were discussing yes- 
 terday of misrepresentation in advertising that we had under dis- 
 cussion. Then, on the same page, there is an advertisement of the 
 same firm — Lincoln-Leonard & Co. — in which they advertise a rocker, 
 headed " Eoyal leather rocker." The thing I object to in here is the 
 use of the word " leather." The rocker is offered at $3.85, and any- 
 body at all familiar with merchandise knows it is not leather at all. 
 I am' suggesting this to this committee, for it has often occurred to 
 me, the Post Office Department has plenty of room for labor along 
 this line. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you taken the matter up with the Post Office 
 Department ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I do not remember whether I have or not. 
 
 The Chairman. If you have not, are not you derelict as a citizen 
 according to the views you hold? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Probably I am. I have been trying to work with 
 the United States court, trying to get something done along that line. 
 I want to refer to another matter that I have not before me — that is, 
 to quote from it, simply give it from memory, but I can furnish the 
 committee with the exact quotation — it is the case of the Burson 
 hosiery made by the Burson Hosiery Knitting Co., of Rockford, 111., 
 a, product of which the firm of Sears, Roebuck & Co. advertise full- 
 fashioned hose at 19 cents. Now, the Burson Hosiery Knitting Co. 
 sell a trade-marked hose, the trade-mark is printed on the foot of the 
 hose, so there is a paper trade-mark attached to the top of the hose. 
 Burson hosiery is advertised in our magazines the world over at 25 
 cents. Sears, Roebuck & Co. advertise the Burson hose at 19 cents. 
 I went to the trouble of buying a pair of 25 cent Burson hose from one 
 of our local stores in Des Moines, and also had a pair of this 19 cent 
 full-fashioned Burson hose from Sears, Roebuck & Co. When I got 
 the two together I found the trade-marks exactly the same, both as to 
 the trade-mark on the foot of the hose and the trade-mark on the top. 
 But when the two pairs are submitted to experts we find the quality 
 of the Sears, Roebuck & Co. hose is absolutely inferior in every way, 
 both as to size, number of stitches, up and down, number of stitches 
 around, in coloring, and also in the quality of the material bf which 
 they were composed. 
 
 The Chairman. Was the Burson hose that you got from Sears, 
 Roebuck & Co. manufactured by the Burson Co. ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. They were both from the same factory? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Both from the same factory — the thing I object 
 to there is the misrepresentation by word and by suggestion, both. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, what was the specific misrepresentation by 
 word, and then the specific misrepresentation, according to your 
 mind, by suggestion? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. In this: The Burson trade-mark hose is adver- 
 tised through our magazines as 25-cent hose sold by retail merchants. 
 
 The Chairman. But if the retail merchant wants to sell at 22 cents, 
 if he pays 15 cents for it and is satisfied with a 7-cent profit, and 
 
PARCEL POST. 695 
 
 another man buys it at 15 cents and wants a 10-cent profit, you can 
 not have any criticism between the two merchants. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. None at all. But the 25-cent price is established 
 by the Burson people through their system of advertising in the 
 magazines. 
 
 The Chairman. They make it a condition they would not sell to 
 any dealer unless he charges 25 cents ? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I think not. I never knew of it, if they do. 
 
 The Chairman. I want to get your line by which you make these 
 criticisms. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I want to go a little further and I think you 
 will see the application. Now, we find the Burson Hosiery people 
 have deliberately manufactured hose for Sears, Roebuck & Co., in- 
 ferior in quality to their standard trade-marked hose, but they have 
 put the same trade-mark on it as on those they sell to retail mer- 
 chants. 
 
 The Chairman. Should not your criticism be against the manu- 
 facturer himself? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Both. I am perfectly willing to let it apply to 
 both. I want this committee to understand that I am just as much 
 opposed to misrepresentation in advertising and personally among 
 merchants, as among catalogue houses. I haven't any sympathy with 
 either one of the misrepresentations. Now, I do not know, Senator, 
 that there is much other material that I could give you that you 
 might be interested in. I can give you reports as to fraud on mail- 
 order houses, if you so desire, but I think probably that would not be 
 necessary. 
 
 The Chairman. No; I think you have the matter before the de- 
 partment of justice and expect, as I understand, to take it up with the 
 Post Office Department, too. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yes, sir; I expect to do that. By the way, I 
 want to say to this committee, if I can render them — the depart- 
 ment — or any other committee any assistance along this line, I will 
 be glad to do it. I would like to see some action taken to remedy 
 these things. 
 
 The Chairman. We appreciate that. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. There are two or three other things I want to 
 go over briefly in conclusion. I want to call this committee's atten- 
 tion to the first proposition I presented yesterday, that influence on 
 the community in doing anything that makes it possible for our 
 farming communities to receive their supplies without leaving their 
 farms. I think that is a serious matter, and I think that this com- 
 mittee ought to give it careful consideration. Incidentally, I want 
 to call the attention of the chairman to a matter that was brought up 
 while Mr. Wells was being heard in regard to the flat rate made by 
 express companies on long-distance hauls. I think you will find, 
 Senator, that only applies to mailable matter. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the point I wanted to bring out. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I think you will find that is so. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the point I wanted to bring out from Mr. 
 Wells. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Now, I want to sanction a matter that Mr. Moon 
 suggested to this committee; that is, as to the appointment of a com- 
 
696 PARCEL. POST. 
 
 mission for the investigation of this whole problem. Now, I do not 
 want you to feel, Senator, as you seemed to do yesterday, or the day 
 before, that this suggestion is made because I do not feel that this 
 committee is honest and capable in its investigations, but I would 
 take from the remarks Senator Bristow made a moment ago that 
 there are ample grounds for a more thorough investigation. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What was the remark? 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. The remark of Senator Bristow that I referred to 
 was where he seemed to feel that the figures compiled by the Post 
 Office Department, as we have them now, were not correct. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That refers to the second-class matter. That 
 does not have anything to do with this. That is entirely a different 
 thing. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Don't you think that might follow any other 
 matters on more thorough investigation ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. That would not have anything to do with a 
 parcel post. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Not as it applies to second-class matter. 
 
 The Chairman. There is an investigation as to the second-class 
 matter now, but that is an entirely different thing. There is no use 
 to go into that. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I did not care to, Senator. The point I wanted 
 to make was that many people do not agree on some of these matters 
 and we feel that the information we have is not complete enough. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, this committee is getting information from 
 every source it can conceive of; that is, where reliable, definite, au- 
 thentic, and valuable information can be received. Why do you 
 wish to change your form of Government and have Congress, a legis- 
 lative branch of your Government, go to the outside and appoint a 
 commission to do a legislative act? I would like to have your view- 
 point on that. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Only that it may be made just as thoroughly as 
 we can possibly make it. I think, possibly, there are matters that 
 have been stated to this committee within the week that may be new 
 to them in some respects. 
 
 The Chairman. There is no doubt but what new viewpoints have 
 been presented. But this committee is holding sessions and has been 
 working for a long time in order to secure the ascertainment of differ- 
 ent views. The fact that you are before this committee is demon- 
 strative of that, and we are trying to get every line of information 
 we can conceive of. Now, why should not a committee consisting of 
 16 of the Senate and a committee of the House of Representatives 
 be able to handle this as well as a commission of 5 or 7, and why 
 isn't the function of your legislative branch of the Government to do 
 this ? They have to determine the legislation and they have to enact 
 the legislation. No commission can pass legislation. You would 
 have to change your form of government. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Yet, Senator, haven't we several commissions at 
 work at this time ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. But they are entirely useless and cumbersome. 
 The very figures that I challenged were secured by a commission. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Well, as I said yesterday, I am not representing 
 anyone, but merely speaking from my own standpoint. 
 
PARCEL POST. 697 
 
 The Chairman. I hope you don't represent the American people 
 with any such viewpoint as that. If you did, the American Govern- 
 ment would be very short-lived, and I hope you stand alone on that. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. If I do, I am willing to stand alone on it. I am 
 not afraid to stand alone on that. 
 
 The Chairman. No one questions that at all. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. Now, I do not know that there is anything more 
 that I can add unless there are some more questions the committee 
 would like to ask. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged, Mr. Pilkington. 
 
 Mr. Pilkington. I want to thank the committee for their courtesy 
 in hearing me. 
 
 The Chairman. We will now hear from Mr. Allen W. Clark. 
 
 21845— vol 3—12 8 
 
TESTIMONY OF MR. ALLEN W. CLARK. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Clark, it is necessary that you be sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the Chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Clark, will you kindly state your age, resi- 
 dence, and occupation? 
 
 Mr. Clark. I am 44 ; my home is St. Louis. I am the editor of the 
 American Paint and Oil Dealer, published there. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you connected with any business organiza- 
 tion ? 
 
 Mr. Clark. I state that in the second paragraph here. 
 
 The Chairman. You have a statement to submit to the committee? 
 
 Mr. Clark. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. If you will kindly give it to us 
 
 Mr. Clark. After hearing Mr. Moon's statement in the hearing 
 Monday, I feel that there is little that could be added to his discussion 
 of the basic principles involved in this question or to his array of 
 facts that have vital bearing thereon. 
 
 I do desire, however, to register against any proposed parcel-post 
 measure, the protest of an industry which is securing the recognition 
 and cooperation of the United States Government in that industry's 
 work for the conservation of the nation's natural resources in their 
 most valuable form — the preservation and, incidentially, the decora- 
 tion of the completed structures of wood, steel, stone, cement, etc. 
 
 I speak for the Paint Manufacturers' Association of the United 
 States, the National Varnish Manufacturers' Association, the Na- 
 tional Dry Color Manufacturers'- Association, and the National Paint 
 Dealers' Association. These four organizations of manufacturers 
 represent an annual output approximating $220,000,000, most of 
 which is distributed through local dealers. The success of the 
 paint propaganda, or what we call " the paint gospel " with every 
 dealer an active missionary, depends chiefly upon the prosperity of 
 the small town, its public spirit, civic pride, and the personal thrift, 
 and self-respect that prompts a good citizen of a good community to 
 keep his house well painted. 
 
 In this connection, I am pleased to note an expression by " Uncle 
 Joe " Cannon in the House yesterday. 
 
 The Chairman. Taken from where? 
 
 Mr. Clark. Appearing in the Washington Post of this date, in 
 which he commented upon the criticism of pension legislation in- 
 dulged in by the metropolitan press. He said : 
 
 They are published in great centers of population. Gratitude for the service 
 performed by the men who carried on the great war of the sixties is felt more 
 in the smaller communities. There is more sentiment and patriotism in the 
 smaller communities than in the bis centers of population. 
 
 The Chairman. You agree with that sentiment? 
 Mr. Clark. Yes, sir. I say the small town, for a majority of our 
 people are yet residents of the small town and the rural district 
 698 
 
PAKCEL POST. 699 
 
 tributary thereto, and, more important, it is estimated that over 90 
 per cent of the paint that is sold in completely manufactured form 
 is distributed through drug, hardware, lumber, and general mer- 
 chants whose establishments are located on the crossroads or in the 
 hamlets, the villages and the towns of less than 5,000 inhabitants. 
 The keen interest of the paint manufacturer in the maintenance of 
 the prosperity of the small local community would be justified by 
 these facts, if only through obvious self interest; but the fact that, 
 after some years of thorough discussion, these manufacturers are 
 unanimous to-day, and have been for several years, in their belief 
 or fear that such an acknowledged public calamity as would be the 
 practical abandonment of home business enterprise in our smaller 
 communities, would actually and inevitably follow the adoption of 
 parcel post in America, is, I believe, so significant as to command 
 the gravest consideration of those to whom naturally and properly 
 the calamities of classes do not appeal as would one that affected the 
 whole people. 
 
 Just one more thought. I have attended several hearings on this 
 subject and nothing has impressed me more than the insistent desire 
 of the chairman and his committee associates for " the facts." Yester- 
 day, especially, was I struck with the chairman's courteous emphasis 
 upon the committee's desire for information rather than argument. 
 This always has been the dominant note of each committee. It is an 
 acknowledged and obvious fact that parcel-post systems in foreign 
 countries (each smaller than one of our States, over Government- 
 controlled railroads, and among people of a national temperment 
 quite different from our composite but distinctive American spirit) 
 constitute no satisfactory precedent, principle, or practice for emula- 
 tion or application here. Likewise, with no general parcel post in 
 the United States or Canada, it becomes impossible to cite actual 
 results, for we have no actual practice of what we view as a proposi- 
 tion to arbitrarily annihilate distance and destroy the natural and 
 developed local advantages of thousands of rural communities whose 
 trade and whose populations themselves have no protection against 
 the insatiate maw of the great city, save only these natural barriers 
 and defenses. Therefore, while realizing that my associates have 
 done a worthy and sufficient, almost a superfluous service, in restat- 
 ing fundamental principles of representative government, and social 
 economics, and business enterprise that can not be ignored in the 
 satisfactory solution of any public question; and while through 
 painstaking effort they have secured and furnished you a mass of 
 data upon the various factors that must go into any equation that 
 may be formulated for practical demonstration, I wish to submit the 
 expression of a growing conviction among the business community 
 that the burden of proof of the practicability of the parcel post in 
 the United States and of its benefits to the nation rests upon its 
 
 If it is practicable and not beneficial, or beneficial and not prac- 
 ticable, the agitation is useless. We believe the project would not be 
 found either practicable or beneficial, and the reasons, so ably stated 
 by those who have spoken before, and the number and character of 
 the men constituting the membership of the organization represented 
 here and protesting against any such measure, would seem to give 
 tremendous emphasis to this belief. 
 
700 PARCEL POST. 
 
 A special commission to investigate the question was proposed by 
 Mr. Moon. 
 
 Gentlemen, I was tremendously gratified at the remarks just made 
 by Senator Bristow and seconded by others on this committee as to 
 commissions and bureaus, and so forth. We have entirely too many 
 of them, if we ought even to have a single, solitary one. The people 
 evade, or they misplace the responsibility that should rest upon their 
 chosen representatives from their own communities when they permit 
 the appointment of these commissions and bureaus to do the work 
 that their representatives should do, and I am very glad to find a 
 committee that resents the commission idea. 
 
 Undoubtedly the first thing to which such a body would apply its 
 efforts would be the determination of the practicability of the step 
 proposed. 
 
 Yet, I think this has never been seriously, or at least, successfully, 
 attempted by any of those who advocate a parcel post in this country, 
 though aside from all the important considerations that are but inci- 
 dental to this basic factor, I submit that the practicability of the 
 project is a fundamental essential that demands first consideration 
 and that that demand certainly deserves respectful attention. 
 
 In an article in the New York Independent of January 12, 1911, 
 I expressed the belief that " A general parcel post in the United 
 States would necessitate the Government ownership of the railroads 
 or an immense public deficit or both," for " without Government own- 
 ership and the prohibition of all carrying by private concerns, large 
 or small, national or local, the Government would get only the long, 
 the losing, haul; because on a flat charge — the same on a package 
 from New York to Philadelphia as on one to a remote point on a 
 Montana stage route — the sum of the two equal charges must be 
 enough to cover the cost of both journeys, and the express companies, 
 big and little, would get the profitable short haul, on which they 
 could charge closely to the limit of the postal rate " unless express 
 charges were regulated as freight and passenger charges are now 
 regulated by the Government. Such regulations would kill the 
 famous " four reasons " argument that has been the chief basis of 
 the parcel-post agitation since Mr. Wanamaker made that artful but 
 not apt remark ; and happily such governmental regulation of express 
 rates has become an almost assured fact, chiefly through the efforts of 
 the business community that protests against parcel post. 
 
 The objection and the argument that I urged in the Independ- 
 ent article have been made by various writers, but I have never 
 seen a serious answer. Should not the people and their representa- 
 tives in the National Congress demand some fairly clear and reason- 
 able short haul before seeking to place new burdens of gigantic 
 experiment upon our postal system ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. This zone system which I have submitted to a 
 number of gentlemen who have appeared before us very largely limits 
 the objections which you have presented in the paper, does it not? 
 
 Mr. Clark. It does not eliminate the fundamental objections as 
 to the governmental principle involved. It does not eliminate the 
 abjections as to its effect upon local and community trade. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why? 
 
 Mr. Clark. Because in the zone system the large combinations of 
 capital and the facilities in the great centers, the mail-order houses 
 
PABCEL POST. 701 
 
 ■with their catalogues and stock, and buying facilities, would be 
 enabled to ship by freight or by express to the distributing point and 
 the local zones would simply bridge the gap to the farmer's door 
 for the benefit of the express companies or the railroads and the mail- 
 order houses. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But then the agent of the mail-order house 
 located in the community would not have any advantage that he 
 does not have now. 
 
 Mr. Clark. He would have a door-to-door distribution. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Your local merchant has the same; it does not 
 give him any advantage. I don't see how. He has the same rate and 
 the same facilities. He gets his business by freight the same as the 
 agent of the mail-order house gets it by freight. The thing that I 
 understand the local merchant to be afraid of is that his customer 
 out in the country would order from Chicago an article sent out by 
 mail, transported a thousand miles for a rate just the same as he 
 would have to pay if he sent it out 10 miles. That is the first objec- 
 tion to a general parcel post. But the zone system entirely removes 
 that and gives the local merchant the differential rate because he has 
 a shorter distance to send his stuff. 
 
 Mr. Clark. I do not see that it removes that, Senator, because while 
 it may where the dealers' present delivery system is incomplete, 
 especially throughout a county, while it would help him out on that 
 delivery, though at the same time keping his customers away from 
 his store and facilitating the loss of his personal help of the com- 
 munity, the spirit there. It would also certainly facilitate the trans- 
 portation from the mail-order house to the farm. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It would give the local merchant a cheaper rate 
 than his mail-order house competitor has and that would be to his 
 Advantage instead of to his disadvantage. Now, he has no cheaper 
 rate under the present law. Under the proposed zone system he 
 would have a cheaper rate. 
 
 Mr. Clark. Oh, I see. It doubtless would be the practice, because 
 it is largely the practice now ; these mail-order shipments were made 
 in large hampers of 100 pounds or more, the mail-order house would 
 enjoy the same freight rates that the local dealer has to pay. 
 
 Senator Bristow. So that that would be the same. As it is now, 
 there would be no change to that, and the local dealer has the facility 
 for delivery to his patrons. Of course, the mail-order house by estab- 
 lishing a local agency there could utilize this same opportunity which 
 the local dealer has, but he would have to do that in order to get it, 
 and in the small communities out in the country, of course, he would 
 not do that. 
 
 Mr. Clark. The local dealer does not want facilities whereby to 
 deliver throughout his county at the loss of the personal calls, ac- 
 quaintances, and friendships of his customers. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Of course, that has been an objection to the 
 rural delivery. I have held that. Is not this a fact, that farmers 
 during bad weather — take a week of bad weather in October or 
 November, which are good months for business — that week of bad 
 weather represents a loss to the merchant? He does not make up 
 those sales by additional sales later on. That is a fact, is it not? 
 If you have done business with the country merchant you know he 
 complains of that. 
 
702 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Clark. At very few times. There are two classes of sales. 
 One is the purchase of actual necessities that a man has to have one 
 way or another, and the other is the purchase of goods that civilized 
 men living a community life and enjoying the benefits of a modern 
 distribution, and all that, buys because he sees the goods and be- 
 cause he and his wife are in the store. That is the chief advantage 
 of the maintenance of the local store. It is a factor in the com- 
 munity life. 
 
 Senator Beistow. If the farmers could telephone in or send a card 
 in and have the merchants send them out the things they thought 
 they needed because of this bad weather when they could not go to 
 town, owing to the bad roads, would it not be an advantage to the 
 farmer as well as to the merchant? 
 
 Mr. Clark. I think by and large it would be a distinct disad- 
 vantage. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You do? 
 
 Mr. Clark. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Of course, I can not see it that way, although 
 you may be right. 
 
 Mr. Clark. Senator, I was born in Kansas, your own State. I 
 have kept pretty close track of Kansas. It is my recollection that 
 some years ago there was a United States census report or a State 
 report on the evils of the isolation of the country life, in which there 
 was greatly deplored the tendency of farmers to stay at home, to 
 grow morbid, morose, and so on. I joined in a- protest against that 
 report, and especially against some statistics that were printed 
 therein, but I think it did justly emphasize the disastrous effects of 
 isolation and seclusion that is likely to come in farm life where all 
 of the encouragement to local activities, in business, and things of 
 that sort are abolished. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Good roads and rural delivery, and so forth, are 
 improving that to some extent. This is simply the extension of an- 
 other facility by which he can get the things he wants more con- 
 veniently; and he will go to town and see the folks when it is a 
 pleasant and comfortable day; he will not go if it is not. It seems 
 to me that he ought to have the opportunity if we can give it to 
 him without inconvenience and to our profit. Let him get what he 
 wants instead of imposing on him this great hardship. 
 
 Mr. Clark. Yes ; there is much to be said on that side. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you, Mr. Clark. 
 
 (Thereupon the committee adjourned to meet at 11 o'clock a. m., 
 Thursday, December 14, 1911.) 
 
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 14, 1911. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman); Senator 
 Joseph L. Bristow and Senator Nathan P. Bryan. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. JAMES C. PHILLIPS, REPRESENTING THE 
 BALTIMORE CREDIT MEN'S ASSOCIATION, BALTIMORE, MD. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Phillips, it will be necessary that you be 
 sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age, residence, and 
 occupation ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Thirty-seven years; I live in Baltimore city, and 
 I am in the wholesale dry-goods business. I came here under the 
 auspices of the Baltimore Credit Men's Association. 
 
 The Chairman. "Will you kindly explain to the committee the 
 association, its nature, its scope, and so forth? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. It is an association of the credit offices of 480 of 
 the Baltimore manufacturing and jobbing houses. It performs many 
 duties, the interchange of credit information and looking after wise 
 legislation so far as bankruptcy and similar subjects are concerned, 
 and many other matters that might interest the credit men of the 
 country. 
 
 The Chairman. You say the Baltimore Credit Men's Association ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. The Baltimore branch has 408 members, represent- 
 ing a capitalization of — I could not tell exactly the size of it — but 
 its members are composed of the most important of the largest con- 
 cerns we have in the city. 
 
 The Chairman. And the association that you represent is confined 
 to Baltimore itself in its membership? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. With a few exceptions; we have a member or two 
 in Frederick, Md., and one or two in Cumberland, Md. ; but prac- 
 tically 95 per cent is located in Baltimore city. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you an officer of the association ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. One of the directors. 
 
 The Chairman. And you appear before the committee to-day in 
 your representative capacity as a director of that association? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. As the chairman of the committee on parcel post, 
 
 The Chairman. Your views will be, as near as you can know, 
 the views of the association? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you in favor of or opposed to an enlargement 
 of the present parcel post as represented by the present fourth-class 
 mail matter? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I am opposed to it, sir. 
 
 703 
 
704 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your reasons for oppos- 
 ing it? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I think I can give them to you in most condensed 
 form if you will let me read a few notes. 
 
 The Chairman. I would be very glad to have you do so. 
 
 Mr. Phillips (reading) : 
 
 The general merchant doing business in the smaller towns and rural com- 
 munities of the United States is in a class entirely apart from the " shop- 
 keeper " of Europe, and to his independence, individuality, ingenuity, and thrift 
 much of the phenomenal development of our country is due. 
 
 He assembles merchandise from all sections of the world and distributes it at 
 fair prices to his neighbors, and in turn buys the products of the farm for 
 cash or its equivalent, shipping in wholesale lots to the city, thus performing 
 a twofold function for his community, while being identified with every in- 
 fluence which makes for the betterment of his section. 
 
 His mail-order competitor does not contribute one iota in civic service or 
 finances toward maintaining the local institutions and welfare, but with parcel 
 post would drain the locality of its most profitable business without becoming 
 the purchaser of a single product of the neighborhood. 
 
 It is argued that with parcel post he would enjoy every privilege open to the 
 mail-order house, but we maintain that he would in theory only. 
 
 It is evident that his limited territory would riot sustain the services of an 
 expensive advertising specialist, and if he were to issue a catalogue at bona 
 fide prices lower by far than the big city establishment, how much considera- 
 tion would he receive from consumers located in centers of population unless 
 he were to spend fabulous sums in highly colored advertisements in the big 
 dailies? It is clearly apparent that he would not be on an equal footing in that 
 respect. He must advertise in a way that will stand up under the scrutiny of 
 a regular patronage, and it would be impossible for any length of time to mis- 
 represent his wares, for he has no floating, transient trade to count on, and the 
 shoppers in the larger centers, being used to extravagant descriptions, would 
 not readily overcome their prejudice against his ability to serve them more 
 cheaply because of lower expenses. 
 
 On an even keel he could defend himself against legitimate outside competi- 
 tion, but such is not the nature of present-day methods with mail-order 
 concerns. 
 
 The small merchant does not ask special privileges, but only wants to be let 
 alone to continue to exercise his regular functions without interference by 
 subsidized establishments, which with parcel post would also include large city 
 newspapers, which desire the passage of the proposed legislation. 
 
 The Chairman. You say that the big daily newspapers desire it? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. In the big cities; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Why are they benefited under your theory ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Under this theory, Senator, the more the mail-order 
 houses or some of the big department stores exercise the same func- 
 tions the more advertising for the big city dailies. 
 
 The Chairman. Then thej r would have the dual expenditure for 
 catalogues and dailies. Do you think they expect to reach the 
 country through that means? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. The circulation of a big daily newspaper is not con- 
 fined to the city in which the newspaper is published. 
 
 The Chairman. We understand that, but I thought that the criti- 
 cism that you made was that the catalogues themselves was the basis 
 of union, and the cause of large sales on the part of mail-order 
 houses. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. It is, but some of the department stores, as at present 
 constituted, would also use not only the catalogues, but the advertis- 
 ing in the big dailies as they do now for their local patronage. 
 
PARCEL, POST. 705 
 
 The Chairman. Then, in your opinion, the increase of weight from 
 4 pounds to 11 pounds and a decrease of postage would entirely 
 change the transportation business of the United States? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I think it would to a very great extent. 
 
 The Chairman. What percentage of the business of the United 
 States do you suppose comes within the 11-pound weight limit? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Well, I can give you those facts in concrete state 
 maybe a little better than I could in a general way. Speaking of our 
 individual business 
 
 The Chairman. What business? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. The wholesale dry goods business. Ninety per cent 
 of it could be shipped by parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. But you would ship it by freight if you could get 
 a cheaper rate? 
 
 ' Mr. Phillips. Except in cases where it can be demonstrated that 
 the parcel post would be cheaper than freight. 
 
 The Chairman. How large a business do you do, anyway ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Ours is a private concern, Senator. It is not a 
 stock company. Personally, we do a local business, confined to four 
 or five States. We are coming into contact with the small men in 
 the country all the time. 
 
 The Chairman. What percentage of your business is done by mail 
 and express? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Do you mean the shipping part ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I do not think that the express part of our business 
 would amount to more than 5 per cent. 
 
 The Chairman. What percentage by mail? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Practically none ; not over 1 per cent. 
 
 The Chairman. Why do you not do more than 5 per cent of your 
 business by express and more than 1 per cent by mail ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Because it would be too expensive. The bulk of our 
 stuff is shipped to the retail dealer in the section of the country we 
 serve in lots that would be too heavy for the parcel post to use, in 
 most instances. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, if the weight were increased to 11 pounds 
 and the postage decreased, making the postage, say, 100 per cent 
 greater on the basis of 100 pounds than the freight rate, you would 
 ship all your business by mail, would you ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. No. 
 
 The Chairman. Would it change your situation at all? Would 
 . you ship any more than you do to-day ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. The great bulk of our shipment would still be done 
 by freight. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly go on with the reading of your 
 paper. 
 
 Mr. Phillips (reading) : 
 
 If the farmer could buy slightly cheaper by catalogue would it be wise to 
 ilose up the local store even if its conveniences could be dispensed with? De- 
 cidedly not ! The elimination of any industry from a neighborhood impoverishes 
 its citizenship to a corresponding degree, and the passing of the local store or 
 stores -increases the tax rate and other general expenses per capita, limits 
 neighborhood improvement, and lowers farm values. 
 
 The Chairman. These are the opinions of your association? 
 Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir. 
 
706 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you submitted this paper to the 400 mem- 
 bers of your association ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. We have kept our association in touch from day to 
 day with the things we were doing. I have submitted the paper to 
 some of our directors. I will tell you this, Senator, before I finish 
 I will give you a resolution which has been duly passed by the associa- 
 tion and is in condensed form. 
 
 The Chairman. But regarding the thesis that you are now reading, 
 it was prepared by you and submitted by you to some of your direc- 
 tors, but has not been submitted to all the 400 members of the associa- 
 tion ; is that correct? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. No, sir; for the simple reason that I did not make 
 these notes until last night. 
 
 The Chairman. I just wanted to get on the record the exact facts. 
 Your own deductions as to these views is expressed from personal 
 contact with the members of the association? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir. Mr. Senator, in the article that you had 
 last week in the Saturday Evening Post you have a very ingenious 
 arraignment about utilizing the unused equipment of the rural-de- 
 livery man. You say at present he carries about 24 pounds and has a 
 capacity of about 150 pounds. Now, we claim that there are a great 
 many things in this world that may be very ingenious and attractive 
 but are not desirable. Every business man will formulate at different 
 times ideas about, matters that look very good on the surface, but it is 
 only that thing that will pass every objection which presents itself 
 to the mind of the man originating it or his associates in the business. 
 It is only the things that will stand a test that are adopted. We be- 
 lieve it would not be a wise thing to have a parcel post simply to bring 
 in revenue to the Government, provided it did, which we do not be- 
 lieve it would. We do not believe that would be a wise thing. The 
 question has been brought up that it would be a good thing to have a 
 parcel post in order to get some relief from the burden of the express 
 charges at certain times. Now, we as business men believe that that 
 is a separate problem that ought not to enter into the consideration of 
 this subject. We believe that that is a matter which the Interstate 
 Commerce Commission should take up. 
 
 The Chairman. They have it under consideration. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. We believe that that matter can not come into the 
 consideration of this subject. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you believe that a committee such as ours 
 should not consider anything outside of that committee, no matter 
 what its relations may be in business to-day? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. No : I do not want to line you down that tight, I 
 think this, that you have shown that you want to have as broad a 
 consideration of the subject as possible. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the desire of the committee. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I got that idea on Monday morning when I came 
 over here to make your acquaintance and to locate your room. But 
 our point remains that we do not think that a parcel post ought to be 
 taken up simply as a club for the expressman. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not think that the desire on the part of any 
 member of the committee is to club anybody. The function of the 
 committee is ascertainment; the next function will be study, and the 
 
PARCEL POST. 707 
 
 next conclusion as to what will be for the best interests of the general 
 welfare of the country. I think I can safely say that, 
 
 Mr. Phillips. On the 14th of November our association sent a 
 copy of this resolution, which I will read you a little later, to Presi- 
 dent Taft and accompanied it by a letter from which I will quote 
 you two or three paragraphs : 
 
 Our members maintain business relations with diversified interests through- 
 out the United States, and thus keep in close touch with general trade condi- 
 tions. We do not believe that rural communities really desire parcel post, but 
 are aware that certain agencies are especially active in seeking to create a 
 demand for it. 
 
 A concentration of an enormous volume of business in the hands of a few 
 retail establishments would present a rare opportunity for further combinations, 
 with corresponding loss of independence and individuality. 
 
 We are convinced that the adoption of the parcel post would work 
 serious injury to the business of the nation. As to the relative ex- 
 pense of the mail-order house and the rural retail dealer, a simple 
 calculation is all that is necessary to determine whether the mammoth 
 city store can give better values, for the expenses of the rural mer- 
 chant generally do not run over 10 per cent and rarely exceed 15. 
 
 The Chairman. Of what? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Of the per cent of the volume of his business. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean the overhead charges and all represent 
 about 15 per cent of his gross business ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir ; at the very outside. 
 
 The Chairman. That of the retail merchant ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir ; when he does a very small business. 
 
 The Chairman. On what data and authority are you able to come 
 to a conclusion of that kind that you can speak for the million retail 
 merchants in the United States? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Through conversations with a great many dealers 
 during my experience in the drug business. 
 
 The Chairman. What per cent of the million retail merchants in 
 the United States do you suppose you had personal conversation with ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Not a very large percentage. 
 
 The Chairman. Is not that a rather sweeping assertion to make? 
 I am not criticizing it; I am trying to simply get your line of in- 
 vestigation and ascertainment upon which you feel justified in 
 making such an assertion. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Senator, the conditions will vary in different sec- 
 tions of the country, but I think that I can get a number of my fellow- 
 delegates here this morning to substantiate me as far as their expe- 
 rience is concerned. I would like you to ask any of them that ques- 
 tion to verify my statement. 
 
 The Chairman. This is simply an opinion of yours? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. No ; it is not simply that, but as credit men we re- 
 ceive statements, financial statements, at stated intervals; sometimes 
 every year and sometimes at longer periods, according to the cases 
 we have under investigation to pass credit on. 
 
 The Chairman. Over the whole United States? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Over the whole United States, and in many in- 
 stances the rate of expense is given. Sometimes we request it ; other 
 times we do not; and sometimes it is volunteered, but I think I am 
 within the bounds of the truth when I tell you that that is the 
 condition. 
 
708 PAECEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. I must say, Mr. Phillips, that as a business man 
 I should attach no importance whatever to that statement of yours 
 without further proof as to its authenticity. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Do you want me to give you that proof? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; if it can be obtained. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. If I can get it I will send it to you. 1 
 
 The Chairman. I would like to know how you expect to get that 
 proof. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Well; we have a number of. ways of ascertaining 
 that which I will give you when I give you the data. I will give you 
 my authority. The larger establishments in the city often cost as 
 much as 25 per cent, and naturally you would want the same proof 
 about that. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; on how any such a determination as that was 
 reached. Taking into consideration the enormous volume of business 
 and great number of firms and individuals, how a statement of that 
 kind could be made based upon authentic information would be very 
 interesting to me. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Mr. Senator, as I told you, we have facilities for 
 finding out a great many things. 
 
 The Chairman. I have no doubt of that, Mr. Phillips. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. We have to do it ; that is part of our business. 
 
 The Chairman. But I would like to share in the information, or 
 rather the committee would, for the benefit of Congress and the 
 country. 
 
 Mr. Phillips Yes, sir. And when we remember that many well- 
 known brands are used as " leaders " at or below cost, to create the 
 impression of general cheapness, which has to be " averaged up " 
 somewhere, we begin to get an idea of what the buyer at the high 
 end of the " average " has to pay for the rare bargain. I might say 
 there, Senator, that quite a change has come over the practice of the 
 people in the last 15 years. I can recall that when I started in the 
 dry-goods business 20 years ago the quality of fabric had a great deal 
 to do with the sale of a piece of goods. That has been changed to a 
 great extent by the persistent advertisements of a great many of the 
 large houses, which has had a tendency to mold public thought and 
 opinion, and nowadays when you offer the same customer — this holds 
 true to a great extent with the retail dealer, but to a greater extent 
 with the consumer direct — we can offer two pieces of goods at the 
 same price, one may be of better quality of fabric and they will take 
 the style in preference. That was not true 20 years ago. 
 
 The Chairman. It is appearance more than quality in your opinion. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. There has been that change in 20 years time. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the change in the personal equation, you 
 see. Do you think there has been any change in the 20 years in the 
 desire of the individual to get the best he can for the least money? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. That is a long question, and it would take a long 
 answer. 
 
 The Chairman. I did not suppose it would take much of an answer 
 to that. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. On the surface, Mr. Senator, I would naturally say 
 yes ; but when I look into it and find out what certain houses by the 
 power of advertising make the people believe 
 
PARCEL POST. 709 
 
 The Chairman. It is human nature to always want to get the best 
 for the least money. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. If there is a lady in the case and she gets up against 
 a bargain sale, then she will find out what it is. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the same thing. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. The desire is there, but 
 
 The Chairman, But the same controlling factor influences the 
 purchaser. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Yes. 
 
 "The Chairman. That is the point I am making. It is that you 
 have got to take into all your considerations in order to increase your 
 volume of business. You start with that ; that is your initial point. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bryan. What is your estimate of the percentage of cosL 
 of a mail-order house, or large department store, to do business? 
 You gave us your idea of the average expense of the retail dealer in 
 the country. Now, what is your estimate for the mail-order house ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Senator Bryan, I stated that up to about 25 per 
 cent. There have been individual instances where it would run up 
 higher than that. 
 
 Senator Bryan. No ; what does it cost for the mail-order houses — 
 what percentage, in your opinion? You gave us, as your opinion, 
 that 15 per cent covered the cost to the average retail dealer; what 
 is your estimate of the cost to the mail-order house ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. That depends upon the nature of the business. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I do not know that you understand me. You 
 undertook to draw a distinction, or had begun to do that, and went 
 so far as to give us you opinion of the retail dealers cost of doing 
 business, and I wanted you to complete that and give us your esti- 
 mate as to what it costs the mail-order house to do business. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. There are two kinds of mail-order houses, I would 
 answer to that, Senator Bryan. One is the mail-order house doing 
 business like Montgomery, Ward & Co., or Sears, Eoebuck & Co. I 
 think that has been brought out, if I am not mistaken, at one of your 
 previous hearings, as to what those particular firms report as to their 
 expense. On the other hand 
 
 Senator Bryan. I do not remember that. Can you give me your 
 recollection of it? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Not this minute, I can not. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Well, I understood that you had begun to draw 
 that distinction when your mind was directed into another channel. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir; I can give you that, and give you my 
 authority, too; 22£ to 27 per cent, the Dry-Goods Economist tells us. 
 
 The Chairman. That is 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Fixed overhead charges that have to be met before 
 the mail-order house can show a profit to its stockholders. 
 
 Senator Bryan. As against 15 per cent to the retail dealer ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Yes ; to the rural retail dealer. 
 
 The Chairman. And 25 per cent to the city merchant? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. To the large department store, up to 25 per cent. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Do you include in that the mail-order houses, also? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. No. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Can you give me an estimate of what it costs them 
 to do business ? 
 
710 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. That is what I tell you, 22^ to 27 per cent. I want 
 to supplement this by saying that in individual instances the depart- 
 ment stores in some of the large cities have been paid even more than 
 that. 
 
 The Chairman. Let me see if I have got that correct. You esti- 
 mate that there is a tax on the volume of business performed by the 
 country merchant of 15 per cent before he gets any profit ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I must qualify that. It rarely exceeds 15 per cent. 
 In some cases it is as low as 12. 
 
 The Chairman. The maximum is 15? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. It would be nearer 12 on an average. 
 
 The Chairman. What do you determine upon as being the average 
 of the country merchant? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Twelve per cent would be the average. 
 
 The Chairman. That you expect to be able to prove and demon- 
 strate ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, in the case of the city merchant, you say 
 that his expense is 25 per cent? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I said it was up to 25 per cent. 
 
 The Chairman. That is. the average that you believe you will be 
 able to demonstrate for the benefit of the committee ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I do not believe that the department store 
 
 The Chairman. I am speaking now of the city merchant. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I think you are talking now of the department store. 
 
 The Chairman. I am talking about the stores in the cities — in the 
 big cities. Will you kindly make your own distinction for the benefit 
 of the committee, so that they can have the full information as to 
 just what you are trying to prove. First, what, in your opinion, con- 
 stitutes a country merchant? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. The country merchant that I am seeking to defend 
 to-day is the man doing a business of less than $25,000. 
 
 The Chairman. Whether he is in the city or in the country, it is 
 immaterial ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. His expenses? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. It was the rural section or the small town — now that 
 same man doing a business in a larger place 
 
 The Chairman. He can not be ubiquitious; he can not do busi- 
 ness in both places. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I mean his prototype, then. 
 
 The Chairman. In the case of a merchant doing a business of less 
 than $25,000 his expense is 12 per cent, is it, of doing that business? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I think it would be. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Whether in the city or in the country? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Whether in the small town or in the country, that 
 same man buying books in the city where he has to compete with 
 his department-store neighbor would naturally have to pay a little 
 more. I am not here in his behalf this morning. 
 
 The Chairman. But you are here to give information to the com- 
 mittee regardless of whose interests it may affect. You are here on 
 behalf of the special interests of the association that you represent, 
 but your desire is to give the committee all possible information 
 
PAKCEL POST. 711 
 
 bearing upon the subject that you are capable of from your experi- 
 ence and your investigation of the subject; is not that correct? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. That is what I understood ; now we have a $25,000 
 annual business and a cost of 12 per cent for operation before any 
 profits ; now up to what amount for your next class ? 
 
 Mr. Phhlips. Do you mean in the cities ? 
 
 The Chairman. If you are going to make a classification according 
 to cities and towns, well and good ; if you are going to make a classi- 
 fication according to volume of business, well and good ; make your 
 own classification, but the committee would like to know exactly what 
 that classification is. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I will have to get you that later as far as the smaller 
 man in the town is concerned. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly explain to the committee what 
 classification you had in mind when you made the assertion to the 
 committee that the expense of doing business for the retail merchant 
 or country merchant was 15 per cent and for the city merchant 25 
 per cent ; if I correctly understood you ; if not, please correct me. 
 
 Mr. Phhlips. The man whose expense of doing business that I 
 said in the city would amount to 25 per cent is what we know as the 
 modern department store. 
 
 The Chairman. Not the mail-order house? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. No. 
 
 The Chairman. So you make three distinct classifications. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I will tell you that it would cost the mail-order 
 house from 22i to 27 per cent. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, will you kindly explain, for the benefit of 
 the committee, the reasons for these apparently great differences in the 
 cost of operation ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. The difference in the methods of conducting busi- 
 ness. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the retail merchant doing a business of less 
 than $25,000 per annum has other business methods than the store 
 doing a business of $10,000,000 a year. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. He has lighter expenses. 
 
 The Chairman. Proportionately to his business? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir ; I think so. You must take into considera- 
 tion, Senator, that the personal element has got to enter into it and 
 the nearer a man — all things being equal — can get to his own con- 
 stituents the greater the value of his service. 
 
 The Chairman. How is it, then, that you have any competition? 
 How does the country merchant have any competition with the 
 city merchant, the city merchant having to bear an expense of 25 
 per cent on his volume of business, while the country merchant has 
 only to bear an expense of 15 per cent before any profit is shown? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I gave you that, sir, a minute or two ago. 
 
 The Chairman. I did not grasp it then. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. The reason is that 'they used to buy in the olden 
 lime quality of fabric, and now they buy styles. 
 
 The Chairman. They charge for styles, and they charge for qual- 
 ity, do they not? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Everything being equal, they will take style rather 
 than quality. 
 
712 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. What has that to do with the expense of opera- 
 tion ? Can not the country merchant go into the style as well as the 
 city merchant? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Yes; but the country merchant has not the para- 
 phernalia to meet the city store on the same basis; he can not ad- 
 vertise. 
 
 The Chairman. But the city merchant and the country merchant 
 have to depend on the manufacturer, do they not? Is it your con- 
 tention that the manufacturer manufactures for the city on style and 
 for the country on quality; that the consumer in the country has 
 given up quality and has substituted style; and that he can not get 
 style from the country merchant; and that he has to go to the city 
 merchant? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. No, sir ; but very frequently a woman will buy from 
 a large store that which she would scorn or refuse to buy from a small 
 store. A number of gentlemen here can bear me out on that point. 
 It is one of those things that you must see or have brought to your 
 attention before you can realize that it is true. As my authority, I 
 will give you two names that are known all over the country; one 
 was the late President Lincoln, who said, " You can fool some of the 
 people some of the time, and you can fool some of them most of the 
 time, but you can not fool all the people all the time." 
 
 The Chairman. You concurred in the statement not because you 
 knew it to be true, but because it emanated from Lincoln ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. No, sir; but I know from experience and observa- 
 tion that he spoke the truth. I will set my seal to that. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Some people say it is not necessary to fool all the 
 people all the time, because you can begin over again. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly go on with your thesis, Mr. 
 Phillips? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Every added convenience that is used by the depart- 
 ment store, for instance, increases the ultimate cost to the consumer. 
 
 The Chairman. The consumer has to pay all this anyway regard- 
 less of where he buys; whether it is from the country merchant, the 
 ctiy merchant, the big department store, or the mail-order house. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. He ought to have a friend somewhere, too. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. We are his friends. 
 
 The Chairman. You are here representing him; the 92,000,000 
 people ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Now, what is that other quotation you are going 
 to give us? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. The other you know; and it will make you smile 
 also. It is the statement of the late P. T. Barnum, that the American 
 people like to be humbugged. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you set your seal on that, too ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. To a certain extent I do; not in the sweeping way 
 I did the other. 
 
 The Chairman. You believe it? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. To a certain extent. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I do not set my seal to that. I do not think 
 anybody likes to be fooled. Now, please go ahead with your state- 
 ment. 
 
PARCEL POST. 713 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I will illustrate what I mean. I know of a case 
 where there was a cotton foulard that was sold by the jobbers a 
 few seasons ago and retailed by the small stores in the city and in 
 the country at 12£ cents. I know of a department store that had 
 that very same stuff on their counter, and they put a big placard on 
 it, marked " Special value, 25 cents." 
 
 The Chairman. Do you believe that is honest business ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. No ; I do not think so. Mr. Barnum told the truth 
 to this extent. There were some people that went there and bought 
 this fabric at that store at 25 cents, and the people were willing to 
 take it on their statement. The people were gullible to that extent. 
 
 The Chairman. "We are all assuming that you tell us what you 
 know and what you believe. Can you criticize us if we have that 
 confidence in you, Mr. Phillips? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you criticize the consumer in his gullibility 
 if the storekeeper, whom he assumed to be honest and whom he 
 has known in his long association with him, says that this was 25 
 cents and has been reduced to 15 cents? It is not a question of 
 gullibility of the citizen; it is a question of the integrity of the 
 storekeeper himself. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. It comes down to that in the long run. I do not 
 want to make the sweeping statement that the mail-order houses or 
 department stores are all in that class. It is far from that. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, why mention an isolated instance to prove 
 a case when you say that the great bulk of them are far from that? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. For this reason. If as much as even 5 or 10 per 
 cent of them would practice methods of that sort 
 
 The Chairman. Would not they be found out sooner or later ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. They would be ; mail-order houses are being found 
 out every day. 
 
 The Chairman. Are they not losing their business? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Yes; but there are new crops born every minute. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly go on with your statement ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Senator, it has been very often reported lately and 
 we have heard a great deal of talk about the desire to eliminate the 
 so-called middleman. We see that in the newspapers. A few of us 
 have some objections to being eliminated. 
 
 The Chairman. And I quite concur with you in that. I know of no 
 desire on the part of any of the Eepresentatives of Congress to elim- 
 inate anybody. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I can give you my authority, if you will accept that. 
 It is the Washington Evening Star of November 14, 1911, which says 
 that President Taft has a remedy for the high cost of living. 
 
 The Chairman. Is this a declaration issued from the White House, 
 or is it simply a newspaper article? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. It is an article that was printed in the Washington 
 Evening Star here and given out by the Associated Press. 
 
 The Chairman. Given out from the White House? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Over his signature? 
 
 The Chairman. There is nothing given out over the President's 
 signature, except his messages. What does this purport to be, a state- 
 ment representing the President's position on this particular subject? 
 
 21845— vol 3—12 9 
 
714 PAKCEI, TOST. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. He believes that the elimination of the middleman 
 would put the consumer closer to the producer and thus save the 
 middleman's profit. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that, I say, an official declaration given out by 
 the White House? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I did not get this from Mr. Hilles, or from Presi- 
 dent Taft, but it is printed in one of the best papers here in this city. 
 Let me read what it is. 
 
 The Chairman. There is no use of burdening the record with a 
 statement purporting to come from the head of your nation, unless 
 you know that it is an authoritative statement representing his views. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I have no reason to believe that he did not give ex- 
 pression to this. 
 
 The Chairman. You have no knowledge that he did. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Certainly, I have not. 
 
 The Chairman. It is not quoted as coming from the President? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. It is not in quotations. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is it stated that it comes from the President? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. It is stated that President Taft wants to eliminate 
 the middleman and that he believes that the introduction of a parcel 
 post will do that. 
 
 The Chairman. If you balieve that this is so important that it 
 should go into the record, I am willing, but only with the statement 
 that you have no knowledge that it is authentic, and that it is not in 
 quotation marks in the paper from which you got it. 
 
 Mr. Philips. That is all right, sir. 
 
 (The newspaper article referred to by Mr. Phillips reads as 
 follows:) 
 
 TAFT HAS A REMEDY — BLAMES MIDDLEMAN FOE HIGH COST OP LIVING FAVOES A 
 
 PABCEL POST — BELIEVES CONSUMERS WOULD SAVE ONE PROFIT — HIS PLAN AS TO 
 MESSAGES — WILL SEND TARIFF VIEWS TO CONGRESS IN SPECIAL COMMUNICATIONS. 
 
 The important fact becomes known that the Intention of President Taft now is 
 to discuss the tariff and submit to Congress the work of the tariff board in a 
 special message that will go to that body shortly after the assembling of Con- 
 gress. The regular message, it is learned, will probably be shorn of the big 
 questions that svill become vital to the presidential politics of the country during 
 the next year. 
 
 It is quite likely, as the situation now looks, that there will be two tariff 
 messages from the White House, one concerning the woolen schedule and an- 
 other touching upon the cotton schedule. The reason for that is that the wool 
 investigations of the Tariff Board are practically complete and will be in the 
 hands of the President before Congress assembles. 
 
 The cotton investigations, on the other hand, will not be ready until shortly 
 after Congress meets. 
 
 ABLE TO URGE REDUCTION. 
 
 The President is already familiar enough with the general outline of the 
 reports in each instance to know that he will be able to recommend to Congress 
 substantial reductions in the tariff rates upon these two big schedules of the 
 existing tariff law. He wishes, however, full time to study the data submitted 
 to him before he makes definite recommendations, and it is impossible for him 
 to get that time now with the preparation of the annual message and many 
 other things to look after. 
 
 The Tariff Board has, in following the wishes of the President, made a world- 
 wide investigation of the wool and cotton industries, from the time the sheep 
 are born and the cotton is planted until the manufactured article passes into 
 the hands of the consumer. The data will be voluminous and, the President 
 believes, accurate and trustworthy. The President is so convinced of this that 
 
PARCEL POST. 715 
 
 he will practically stake his political future upon the exact trustfulness of the 
 facts and figures he receives and will transmit to Congress. The Democrats are 
 prepared to attack the ability of the Tariff Board to obtain any more or better 
 figures than can be got through the Ways and Means Committee of the House, 
 and the country is to be the judge of the fight between the White House, backing 
 the Tariff Board, and the Democrats, backing the Ways and Means Committee. 
 
 TO TACKLE COST OF LIVING. 
 
 It is said to-day that the reports of the Tariff Board may go farther than 
 the actual figures dealing with the raising of sheep and cotton and the turning 
 of these things into manufactured goods for the consumer. The board is 
 likely to present important figures upon the cost of living, as deduced and ascer- 
 tained from its complete investigation into three subjects. Its conclusions are 
 likely to be that the sheep and cotton raiser and the manufacturer do not get 
 more than they deserve, but that the big profits in the business go to the middle- 
 man. The figures along this line will tend to show the middleman is the factor 
 in forcing the people to pay big prices for what they wear in wool and cotton. 
 
 PEESIDENT TO URGE REMEDY. 
 
 The President is said to be deeply impressed with the conclusions that will 
 be drawn directly or indirectly by the board as to the cost of living, so far as 
 these articles of commerce go, and is prepared to renew, with the greatest em- 
 phasis, his former recommendations for the establishment of a parcel post in 
 the United States. The President from the data already in his hands, together 
 with other material touching upon the tariff he has been gathering for months, 
 believes that the middleman in the United States must be eliminated and the 
 people given the privilege of buying directly from the producers and manufac- 
 turers. The parcel post is regarded by him as the medium for giving this op- 
 portunity to the people. Its history in other countries has proven this, he will 
 argue. 
 
 The facts as to wool and cotton are said to show that the middleman derives 
 a tremendous profit in passing the manufactured product through several hands 
 to the consumer. With a parcel post in operation, the President thinks the 
 consumer vill soon learn to deal directly with the manufacturer, and save for 
 himself the profits that go to the middleman. 
 
 As matters are now shaping themselves, at the White House, the President 
 will use the tremendous force of his office during the coming session of Congress 
 to urge reductions in the duties of the tariff, and to insist that the people can 
 be furnished with the necessities of life much lower than at present by direct 
 dealing with the producers and manufacturers. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. That has come out in a number of other papers, and 
 while I can not say that the official did say that, I have nsver seen it 
 disputed. I quote that article for this reason: We claim that the 
 multiplicity of distributors is of inestimable value to the mills, msny 
 cloths being now sold that with a contraction of outlet would be 
 dropped. If the jobber were stifled the consumer would find that the 
 mill would have to take over some of his duties, thus adding expenses. 
 Instead of having eliminated the jobber after all that *vould have 
 been simply changing the basis of operation from the jobber to the 
 mail. Senator, may I ask you a question ? 
 
 The Chairman. No ; I am not here to be interrogated., now. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. You have been asking me a good many. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the purpose of the hearings. What was 
 the question ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Upon what do you base your belief that the country 
 at large will be benefited by a parcel post ? 
 
 The Chairman. That we expect to present to the country when 
 we come to that stage. We are trying to get all the information and 
 light we can on the subject now. 
 
716 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. The reason I asked you is this: On Monday you 
 asked a number of questions of Mr. Norvell and in turn told him 
 certain things ; you gave him a little outline of certain things. 
 
 The Chairman. Tentative, in order to draw forth his views and 
 get his criticisms before coming to my own determination. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. In like manner I asked you that question, not in a 
 spirit of inquisitiveness, but you want the facts and 
 
 The Chairman. That is what we are trying to get. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Unless you are in the scrimmage for business there 
 may be something that may not have occurred to you. 
 
 The Chairman. That is where we expect to get the benefit of the 
 battles you have gone through. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. You can not do that unless you present your own 
 views to us, and unless we have a remedy to offer. 
 
 The Chairman. We ask your objections to an increase in the 
 weight limit from 4 pounds to 11 pounds; you have something con- 
 crete there before you. I have not the slightest idea as to the con- 
 clusion that the committee will come to. They will come to no con- 
 clusion until they get all the information and obtainable light; that 
 will have to come before constructive work. It is first desirable to 
 get the weaknesses where improvements can be made ; that is a matter 
 for the committee to decide and then it is for Congress to decide. We 
 are performing our duty in trying to get the ascertainment. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I will give you my reasons. We very often have a 
 case of some retail merchant who seeks the credit of our house, or 
 some of our other gentlemen here have similar experiences, from day 
 to day. We may send out a bookkeeper to get the data upon which 
 we would base our credit and everything may look lovely. On the 
 other hand, we may send out a trained man that might not be a good 
 bookkeeper, in the general acceptation of the word, but he may have 
 a faculty, through training and experience and equipment, to dis- 
 cover certain facts which would keep us from shipping that bill of 
 goods under any consideration. That is the reason I asked that 
 question. There may be something that may occur to the minds of 
 some of us that you would like to have some light on. 
 
 The Chairman. That is what you gentlemen are here for, to give us 
 such light. You do not doubt your own ability to represent your own 
 experience and your own conclusions and deductions? You are not 
 estopped from giving them, and that is what we appreciate and 
 invite from you. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Do you not see what I am trying to drive at ? 
 
 The Chairman. I can not say that I do. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. You went so far on Monday as to express yourself 
 as to certain things that would be beneficial, and we would like to 
 know — if we are not out of line, and of course, if we are you will 
 tell us so — on what you base your belief that the country would be 
 benefited by a parcel post. Some questions might come up that 
 we can throw light on. 
 
 The Chairman. I expect to get the information for the committee 
 and get their deductions at the proper time. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Would it not create a deficit ? 
 
 The Chairman. I do not think so. That Avould be one of the 
 points regarding which the committee would make a most careful 
 study. The committee itself has not even commenced to reach a 
 
PARCEL POST. 717 
 
 determination. We are trying to get all possible information for 
 the subcommittee to present to the full committee. Then they will 
 make their study, then whatever is reported favorably will have the 
 indorsement of the full committee and then it goes before Congress. 
 They are now in a process of study. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. In this same article in the Saturday Evening Post 
 you suggested something that was very ingenious, but there is one 
 thing that you did not enlighten us on. You said that if the country 
 merchant could not protect himself against the mail-order competi- 
 tion he would simply have to go. 
 
 The Chairman. If your memory is not better on this than it was 
 on the Lincoln quotation. I would like to have the article in the Satur- 
 day Evening Post, Mr. Phillips, from which you make the statement. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I can give you that. Here it is [reading] : 
 
 Even if country merchants were not mistaken in the position which many 
 of them have taken and would, in fact, be injured to the full extent of their 
 fears, I should not consider their antagonism as necessarily fatal to parcel- 
 post legislation. 
 
 The Chairman. I go on the theory of the greatest good to the 
 greatest number, so far as I am concerned, as is stated in the article. 
 Now, there are a large number of gentlemen here, and we have given 
 a good deal of time to the hearings already. I would like, Mr. Phil- 
 lips, to have you give the main points or features that you want to 
 present to prove and substantiate your position in this matter as 
 briefly as you can so as to economize on time. 
 
 Mr. Philips. I would like to leave this resolution with you, and I 
 will read it. 
 
 (The resolution to which Mr. Phillips referred, and which he read, 
 is as follows:) 
 
 REPORT OF COMMITTEE ON PARCEL POST TO THE BALTIMORE CREDIT MEN'S 
 
 ASSOCIATION. 
 
 Mr. President and gentlemen, after duly considering the subject of parcel 
 post your committee is convinced that centralization of trade in the mail-order 
 houses of our great cities would be a national menace. 
 
 The merchant doing business in the country, village or small town, usually 
 standing for the best thought and interests of the community, employing local 
 help, bearing, his share of taxation and other expenses, and satisfied to dis- 
 tribute merchandise at prices usually lower than city rates because of smaller 
 expenses, would have to carry the load of unfair competition with distant 
 establishments (practically subsidized by the Government), whose sole object 
 is to entice the cash business from the community by alluring advertisements — 
 with no compensation in return to the other activities and institutions of the 
 neighborhood. ' 
 
 Mr. Phillips. It has been suggested- 
 
 The Chairman. Will you please read the entire resolution so that 
 we can get it in toto? Then you can make such comments as you 
 desire. 
 
 Mr. Phillips (continuing reading) : 
 
 The dwindling or passing of the local store with its conveniences and in- 
 fluences would be followed by lack of employment and a lowering of house and 
 land values, and, as population follows trade, the merchant and his helpers 
 when seeking familiar employment would necessarily have to leave the whole- 
 some environment of the country and start again among the complicated 
 problems and narrowing influences of congested, modern city life. 
 
 Meanwhile the condition of the farmer would not be improved by parcel post, 
 despite all arguments to the contrary. 
 
718 PARCEL POST. 
 
 As the near-by market for his products became impaired, farm values would 
 naturally shrink. With an increasing tendency to imitate the alarming extrava- 
 gances of city life, his labor troubles would become more acute as his children 
 left a neighborhood becoming less and less attractive in social, educational, 
 and material advantage. 
 
 With local competition stifled, the farmer would doubtless soon have to pay 
 higher prices for necessities, and there would at times be great delay in securing 
 much-needed supplies. 
 
 With an increasing percentage of our people dwelling in large cities and a 
 consequent lessening of the products of the farm, the cost of living would be 
 greater all over the land, and the ensuing hardships would foster discontent 
 and unrest. 
 
 As village and rural life have ever produced the most wholesome influences 
 and best manhood of our country, it must be admitted that any malady attack- 
 ing the heart and pulse of the nation would soon spread its poison to the utmost 
 boundaries. 
 
 The tremendous losses entailed by revolutionizing the existing mode of dis- 
 tribution would spell disaster to hosts of wholesalers and manufacturers, and 
 mail-order houses alone would profit by the scheme. 
 
 As affiliated credit men, ever watchful of the best interests of our customers 
 and our firms, we can not refrain from entering a most vigorous protest against 
 the adoption of a project that would work great damage to the many, while 
 benefiting only the few. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the resolution that was adopted by the 
 Baltimore Credit Men's Association ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Membership 400, and approved by all the mem- 
 bers, is it? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. A great majority of them. By a preponderating 
 vote. Mr. Senator, I thank you very much for listening to me and 
 the views I have presented. 
 
 The Chairman. And we are greatly obliged to you, Mr. Phillips. 
 
 Mr. Phillips. I would like to read this one squib. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think it is important? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Where is it from ? 
 
 Mr. Phillips. It is published by a little paper in Carroll County, 
 in the Westminster Times of about three weeks ago. 
 
 (Mr. Phillips then read the newspaper article, which is as follows:) 
 
 KEEPING THE DOLLARS AT HOME. 
 
 Ten years ago a farmer put his initials on a dollar bill. The next day he 
 went to the nearest town and spent it with a merchant. Before the year was 
 out he got the dollar bill back again. Four times in the six years the dollar 
 bill came back to him for produce, and three times he heard of it in the pockets 
 of his neighbors. The last time he got it back was four years ago. He sent it 
 to a retail mail-order house. He has never seen that dollar since and never will. 
 That dollar will never pay any more school or road tax for him; will not 
 build or brighten any of the homes of the community. He sent it entirely out 
 of the circle of usefulness to himself and his neighbors. 
 
TESTIMONY OF MR. EDWARD J. SHAY, REPRESENTING THE 
 BALTIMORE BARGAIN HOUSE, BALTIMORE, MD. 
 
 (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age, residence, and 
 occupation ? 
 
 Mr. Shay. I am a resident of Eoland Park, Md. I am the adver- 
 tising manager for the Baltimore Bargain House. I am interested in 
 this parcel-post movement on the basis of selling purely and not on 
 the basis of a scientific discourse, such as we have listened to in the 
 matter of cost, and so forth. I see the injury to the retail merchant 
 as it exists and not what produces it. The concern that I represent 
 has a business of approximately $14,000,000 a year. We are in touch 
 monthly with a hundred thousand merchants or more throughout the 
 several States. 
 
 The Chairman. By mail, I assume ? 
 
 Mr. Shay. By mail. Entirely by mail at certain seasons of the 
 year; at other seasons the merchants come to us. We have no 
 traveling men. 
 
 The Chairman. That is very interesting. 
 
 Mr. Shay. Our work is done exclusively by catalogue in inviting 
 the merchants to come on to see us. Thirty thousand of these mer- 
 chants are steady customers. They are up against a selling condition 
 which is beyond their ability to a great degree to compete with, 
 though they are competing with it successfully to a certain extent. 
 But were the Chicago mail-order houses, for instance, to have the 
 advantage of an 11-pound limit, I sincerely believe that it would be a 
 tremendous injury to them. 
 
 The Chairman. In that connection, so as to get that point and 
 permit the committee to have the benefit of your idea, suppose there 
 were a zone limit established so that Baltimore with a 50-mile radius 
 had just half the postal rates that Chicago would enjoy, as far as 
 Baltimore went as the center of the 50-mile radius. 
 
 Mr. Shay. I do not think that would materially affect matters 
 if the 11-pound limit was given. 
 
 The Chairman. You think it is weight more than postage? 
 
 Mr. Shay. Weight more than postage; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. You have, then, the freight rates practically un- 
 limited and you have the express rates practically unlimited; now, 
 why does not that same factor enter into your calculations as it 
 would if restricted entirely to fourth-class mail matter? 
 
 Mr. Shay. As I understand it, the 11-pound limit carrying a 
 postage of that kind would be more profitable and more sought out 
 by mail-order houses — retail mail-order houses — and they would of 
 necessity use it rather than a slower method of transportation. 
 
 The Chairman. You think the determining factor in the volume 
 of business done in the United States is speed rather than cost, do 
 you? 
 
 Mr. Shay. No; I think speed and cost go together. 
 
 719 
 
720 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Which carries the larger percentage in the deter- 
 mination of the purchaser ? 
 
 Mr. Shay. We say cost. We are now getting into the scientific 
 managing. 
 
 The Chairman. Have we not got to study that, Mr. Shay, before 
 the committee or Congress can come to any conclusion? Do we not 
 have to study all those factors, and are we not obligated to do so 
 under our realization of trusteeship ? 
 
 Mr. Shay. May I present a case to you that will perhaps illustrate 
 the point ? We sell a stove for, say, $8.85. 
 
 The Chairman. And the weight is how much? 
 
 Mr. Shay. I would not care to say ; I do not know ; that does not 
 enter into this illustration. It is heavier than 11 pounds. The 
 Chicago mail-order house will sell the same stove for $11.85 to the 
 consumer in each instance. 
 
 The Chairman. Both prices f. o. b. ? 
 
 Mr. Shay. Yes, sir; that is what I was about to say. The retail 
 merchant in that instance can undersell the Chicago mail-order 
 house, and yet he can not do it on this basis. I was talking some 
 months ago to a merchant who is also the postmaster in his town. 
 He says his customers will come in there and send away a mail order 
 to Chicago for that $11.85 stove which he is selling for $11.25. 
 
 The Chairman. The same stove? 
 
 Mr. Shay. The same stove, made in the same identical factory. 
 They will send it away on the basis that the sale has been made 
 around the home table the night before, the mother and father 
 having decided upon that stove because they have this Chicago cata- 
 logue before them, and the person who comes down to send away 
 the mail order is really a messenger. 
 
 So when you come to the matter of price, the retail merchant in 
 many, many instances can sell lower than the Chicago mail-order 
 house, and yet from his own people he does not get what we call a 
 square deal on the basis that the prophet is without honor in his own 
 country. The merchant in his home town has not the prestige. I 
 was connected some years ago with the National Cloak & Suit Co., of 
 New York City. The predominating thing in their advertising is 
 New York styles ; everything in New York styles. They do not talk 
 price so much as they talk New York styles. In the nature of things 
 they give the consumer no more style than the home merchants can 
 give her, and yet the lure of the thing will take that woman's money 
 to New York City instead of to her home merchant. 
 
 The Chairman. How are you going to correct that ? 
 
 Mr. Shay. By not making it easier for the New York house to 
 deliver that suit to that woman's home. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, we have had a number of gentlemen who 
 appeared before the Committee who have contended that the business 
 of the country merchant would be ruined if there was any medium 
 created by which he could not come into personal contact with his 
 customer ; and yet you say that here is an instance where the country 
 merchant comes into contact with his customer, and you say, as an 
 illustration, that style in catalogues has more weight with the cus- 
 tomer than the personal acquaintanceship and contact. 
 
 Mr. Shay. It has in the districts where the consumers are scat- 
 tered over a large area. Inertia has us all. and a woman would 
 
PARCEL POST. 721 
 
 rather order from a catalogue while in her dining room with the least 
 possible effort to herself. 
 
 The Chairman. Inertia is a prerequisite in business, is it? 
 
 Mr. Shay. No, sir; I am talking about the consumer. A woman 
 would rather decide from the dining-room table, sending a child into 
 the town with a mail order, and then go on with the next day's work. 
 The country merchant, who is dealing with us at the present time, 
 has access to our entire stock. "We place no limit on the size of the 
 order he must send to us. He can order an individual piece. We 
 are going so far this month as to price laces by the yard instead of by 
 the dozen yards. That merchant can sell a woman through our 
 house the same identical item nine times out of ten for a price below 
 what the retail mail-order house will charge her, and yet, because of 
 what I have previously stated, in deciding the matter at the home 
 table the night before he does not get the order. He is up against a 
 competition now, without making it any stronger. 
 
 The Chairman. It is an equal opportunity to everybody. 
 
 Mr. Shay. May I differ with you, Senator, in that? A woman 
 who buys one suit gets a package under 11 pounds. The merchant 
 who must by necessity buy a dozen suits gets a package that goes over 
 11 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. But if he can get that cheaper by having the dozen 
 suits divided into a dozen packages, the merchant has the same oppor- 
 tunity that the consumer has. Is it not true that the great bulk of 
 the business of the country is shipped by freight ? 
 
 Mr. Shay. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it not true that the bulk of the business of the 
 department stores or mail-order houses is shipped by freight ? 
 
 Mr. Shay. The mail-order houses? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Shay. At the present time? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Shay. I assume so, or by express, as the case may be. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, is not one of the strong points in favor of 
 the mail-order house the fact that the would-be customer realizes 
 that he can get his goods cheaper if he can take advantage of the 
 freight rate and if he can get collective orders that will aggregate 
 a hundred pounds ? 
 
 Mr. Shay. The consumer you are speaking of now ? 
 
 The Chairman. The purchaser. 
 
 Mr. Shay. Is that the consumer or the merchant ? 
 
 The Chairman. It is the purchaser. Does not he thereby become 
 an agent for the mail-order house until he gets an aggregation of 
 a hundred pounds in weight so as to take advantage of the greatly 
 reduced rate that he will receive his 10 pounds or 5 pounds, or 
 whatever the amount may be, of that total order? Is not that one 
 of the great factors in favor of the mail-order house, in your judg- 
 ment? 
 
 Mr. Shay. I do not think so. I think the mail-order proposition 
 is what we would term a selling proposition. I think that although 
 economics enter into it I do not think the cash consideration is a 
 strong consideration. I think it is an emotional consideration to a 
 great degree. As an advertising man, I know that the element that 
 goes into the matter is to a very great extent emotional, and you 
 
722 PARCEL POST. 
 
 swing your audience or prospective purchaser emotionally ; you will 
 not swing them on the basis of, let us say, the bargain, so much as 
 you will on some other element. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think that continues indefinitely with the 
 individual ? 
 
 Mr. Shay. Indefinitely with the individual. 
 
 The Chairman. That is interesting as a study of human nature. 
 You think that if the individual becomes cognizant of the fact that 
 some neighbor of his is better balanced and not as emotional and not 
 as impulsive is getting better trade than he is getting for less money, 
 he still goes on being swayed by his emotions? 
 
 Mr. Shay. A woman who buys a suit in New York City would 
 rather pay $11 for that suit in New York City than pay $7 for it at 
 home. 
 
 The Chairman. On the theory that a man would rather pay $75 
 to a certain tailor who has a great reputation than he would pay $50 
 to somebody else who has not such a good name? How are you 
 going to change that? 
 
 Mr. Shay. I would not make it easier for one of them 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, you do not believe in increasing 
 the transportation facilities? 
 
 Mr. Shay. I believe in it, but I think if we are going to improve 
 our transportation facilities we should improve our express com- 
 panies and not start an entirely new method of Government. 
 
 The Chairman. What difference would there be, from an economic 
 standpoint, as the force operating against the merchant and in favor 
 of the mail-order house as it comes to your mind, if the express com- 
 panies reduced their rates 50 per cent, or if the Government in- 
 creased its scope of fourth-class mail matter? 
 
 Mr. Shay. On this basis, that the express companies have had long 
 years of experience in handling this work. The Post Office Depart- 
 ment of the Government, as I understand it, with my meager knowl- 
 edge, for 28 years has shown a deficit. This is the first year they have 
 not shown a deficit. In business I think it would be a very hazardous 
 undertaking for a concern that had proven itself a failure for 28 
 years at the first time they got ahead of the game to branch out and 
 bite off more than they could chew. 
 
 The Chairman. You are not in favor then of reducing the postage 
 on first-class mail matter from 2 cents to 1 cent an ounce ? 
 
 Mr. Shay. That is irrelevant. 
 
 The Chairman. It is not at all; although there is, as you say, a 
 profit now — according to the statement presented, a small one of a 
 few hundred thousand dollars — you would not be in favor of this 
 decrease of postage on first-class mail matter ? 
 
 Mr. Shay. I think that is a separate consideration that I do not 
 care to give a judgment on in two seconds' notice. 
 
 The Chairman. You have no opinion relative to that particular 
 question ? 
 
 Mr. Shay. I have no opinion to express. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly go on, Mr. Shay? 
 
 Mr. Shay. In Baltimore at this time we are facing a proposition 
 of population following trade. We have organized a committee of 
 50, and we are doing a lot of other things that are going to cost us 
 
PARCEL POST. 723 
 
 a lot of money with the object of bringing to Baltimore great indus- 
 tries. It is going to bring with them an attendant population. The 
 parcel post on a smaller scale strikes at that same proposition. That 
 is, we are going to business institutions of the smaller towns, which 
 of necessity are the merchants. You have the old point of centrali- 
 zation ; that our civilization instead of spreading out and instead of 
 being pathfinders, as we pride ourselves on being, is centralizing. 
 Instead of going back to the farm we are going back to the cities. 
 We may of necessity go back to the city. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think that is inevitable? 
 
 Mr. Shay. That is inevitable to a degree. Of course, we appreci- 
 ate the adaptation of human nature to cope with anything, but I 
 think a strong tendency would be that way. Last summer I spent 
 6 weeks in a small town and there was nothing left there but the 
 wrecks, only the people who could not get away, because the business 
 had' all moved out. 
 
 The Chairman. What was the reason? 
 
 Mr. Shay. A change in the route of the railroad, I believe, had been 
 the principal reason. The same condition is in Canada in the very 
 high rates that they charge on the Canadian Pacific for the trans- 
 portation of goods and the thin population. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, they have their problems, as well as we do? 
 
 Mr. Shay. Yes, sir. The large retail mail-order house is essentially 
 an individualistic proposition ; that is, it is the product of certain men 
 who are stockholders in the concern. The retail merchant, whether 
 he would or not, must benefit the town he lives in. He must partici- 
 pate, otherwise he can not hold his trade. He is a member of a civic 
 organization, while your mail-order houses they have stockholders, 
 and their profits go where they go. They certainly did not benefit the 
 , town where they came from, and it takes a wide stretch of the imagi- 
 nation to trace their profits back to the good of that particular com- 
 munity. The retail mail-order houses, to carry that point a step 
 further, in the matter of advertising, will use catalogues exclusively. 
 They will not go into the local papers, as it is not profitable. The 
 great proportion of their advertising is done through their catalogues, 
 with an occasional farm catalogue. In the discussion of the gentle- 
 men who preceded me you raised a point with regard to price. I 
 know of an instance of a very well-known safety razor. The concern 
 handling this safety razor deliberated for the matter of a year as to 
 whether they should price that safety razor $1 or $5. The safety 
 razor, let us say, cost them 30 or 40 cents to produce. They deliber- 
 ated whether $1 or $5 should be the price to secure the orders, and 
 they decided upon $5. Five dollars is an exclusive price and would 
 get the exclusive man, and the $1 would get the ordinary man. 
 
 The Chairman. They conceded that there was at least 20 per cent 
 of the population that were in favor of quality rather than style, or 
 did style enter into the determination of the individuals who sold the 
 goods ? 
 
 Mr. Shay. No ; I do not think the merchants entered in at all. 
 
 The Chairman. Why did they determine on $5 ? 
 
 Mr. Shay. Because it was the beter selling plan. They got a $4.50 
 leeway. 
 
 The Chairman. They made more profit from one sale than they 
 would under the other plan with five sales ? 
 
724 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Mr. Shay. It was not the profit on the individual article, but the 
 tremendous public exploitation of it. There is a remark among sales- 
 men that a man who can sell goods can sell a carpet tack or a loco- 
 motive. 
 
 The Chairman. Do many salesmen handle the two articles ? 
 
 Mr. Shay. Not at the same time ; but the salesman will sell one of 
 each with success, maybe, during the year. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any other points, Mr. Shay ? 
 
 Mr. Shay. Only this point : In the last six years I have been with 
 a concern in New York City that was a retail catalogue house selling 
 to women, as I explained to you. For the three years following I 
 was with Mr. Elbert Hubbard, of East Aurora, N. Y., who sells 
 books; and he is in favor of a parcel post because he sells books. 
 Now I am with a wholesale concern that sells to the merchant, and so, 
 of necessity I have had to see the selling problem from three sides, 
 and, although I appreciate that my remarks at the present time are 
 influenced to a degree by the policy of the concern I am with, yet, in 
 all honesty, I believe that it would be a great injury to the retail 
 merchant, and I believe he is the man who pays the bills. 
 
 The Chairman. I thought the consumer paid the bills. 
 
 Mr. Shay. He does pay the bills; I accept your exception, but he 
 has been tutored by the others. 
 
TESTIMONY OF MR. S. F. MILLER, REPRESENTING THE WHOLE- 
 SALE CLOTHIERS' BOARD OF TRADE, BALTIMORE, MD. 
 
 (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age, residence, and 
 occupation ? 
 
 Mr. Miller. Solomon F. Miller ; 42 years of age ; wholesale cloth- 
 ing manufacturer; residence Baltimore, Md. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you appearing before this committee, Mr. 
 Miller, to give your own views for or against the parcel post, or in 
 some representative capacity? 
 
 Mr. Miller. I am only delegated to give the committee the gist of 
 a resolution passed by the board of directors of the Wholesale Cloth- 
 ing Manufacturers of Baltimore during the last week. 
 
 The Chairman. How many are in the organization? 
 
 Mr. Miller. The Baltimore Clothing Manufacturers are the third 
 largest in their line in the country. Our product represents an actual 
 value of over $20,000,000, and we follow behind New York and 
 Chicago in the value of our product, which includes clothing and 
 shirts and overalls. Personally, I represent the clothing end of it 
 only. 
 
 The Chairman. Has it an association formed? 
 
 Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And the name of the association is what ? 
 
 Mr. Miller. The Clothiers' Board of Trade of Baltimore city, and 
 we are affiliated with the National Association of Clothiers of New 
 York. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you represent the national association? 
 
 Mr. Miller. The Baltimore association only. At a meeting of 
 the directors of our association — and by the way, every house in the 
 association is represented on the board and with one exception the 
 entire body was represented at this meeting of which I am telling 
 you now — the matter of a parcel-post legislation was talked over and 
 spoken of. The consensus of opinion was embodied in this resolu- 
 tion, which unfortunately I did not bring because I did not know the 
 nature of these committee meetings ; otherwise I would have had this 
 resolution here for you. 
 
 The Chairman. You can give us the gist of it, I take it. 
 
 Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; the consensus of opinion was that the asso- 
 ciation goes on record as against the parcel-post proposition, as we 
 know of it up to this time. 
 
 The Chairman. What did they specifically go against? 
 
 Mr. Miller. The directors for the most part took a patriotic view- 
 point; they were not selfish. They figured that whatever would be 
 the result of any legislation their product would still be distributed 
 in the wholesale way, whether to the country merchant in the small 
 town, to whom we sell the largest part of our product, or to the houses 
 who would naturally distribute this to the consumer direct. They 
 took the stand that their product would be sold and the ratio of 
 profit would be the same whether sold in one direction or the other. 
 
 725 
 
726 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Their opposition was altruistic. They did not ex- 
 pect to be injured at all except as their business might be generally? 
 
 Mr. Miller. Their opposition was this: The greatest amount of 
 goods manufactured in our lines are sold in towns throughout the 
 United States of from five to fifty thousand. 
 
 The Chairman. All over the country? 
 
 Mr. Miller. Yes ; they figured that any legislation that would hurt 
 these merchants, these smaller merchants in the towns of from five 
 to fifty thousand, would be a detriment to the country at large. 
 
 The Chairman. There is no doubt of that. 
 
 Mr. Miller. They say that the country merchant will not be able 
 to compete with the mail-order business of the large houses and 
 houses that would undoubtedly be established. They claim that the 
 merchants in the smaller towns would be hurt through this competi- 
 tion and that they would be gradually eliminated. 
 
 The Chairman. But was not their position predicated on the as- 
 sumption that the country merchant would be hurt ? I mean the posi- 
 tion is based, as I understand it, so far as your associates were con- 
 cerned, upon that assumption? 
 
 Mr. Miller. Not only the country merchants, but the merchants in 
 all small towns. 
 
 The Chairman. From five to fifty thousand? 
 
 Mr. Miller. From five to fifty thousand. 
 
 The Chairman. Then do I understand that you and your asso- 
 ciates are opposed to increasing the present weight limits of the fourth- 
 class mail matter? 
 
 Mr. Mhler. Yes, sir ; that is the proposition, for the patriotic rea- 
 son that we believe in backing the country merchant and the mer- 
 chant in the small town, which is the outlying district, and this coun- 
 try is so large we have not congested areas like England and Ger- 
 many. They claim that the country store is the center of population. 
 Wipe out the country store in the small town and you wipe out the 
 centers. The farmers' wives do not come to town, and the result 
 would also be that the boys and girls of the farm would not find the 
 good in life they have got to-day. They would be driven to the larger 
 cities. Of course, we look at it a long way off, but business men have 
 to and do look ahead as far as they can. 
 
 The Chairman. They have to in order to succeed, do they not? 
 
 Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; and this is a position we have taken purely 
 on the ground of good and patriotism to the country. We look back 
 and we see that when the United States wanted volunteers and they 
 needed soldiers and they needed help, and we find that the brawn of 
 the country was drawn from the small towns in the country com- 
 munities. 
 
 The Chairman. Does the storekeeper go? 
 
 Mr. Mhler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Somebody has got to take his place. I have just 
 as high regard as you have for the storekeeper in any locality. 
 
 Mr. Miller. It is not the storekeeper especially. 
 
 Of course Ave need the storekeeper, because around him is every- 
 thing, practically, that comes to the country town. Without the 
 storekeeper in the small town the town would soon dry up, values 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 
 727 
 
 would decrease in the town, and values of the farms adjacent would 
 diminish. 
 
 The Chairman. A gentleman who appeared before us the other day 
 gave us a concrete example of a town of 300 families and four stores 
 10 years ago, and now there is but one store there, and the population, 
 he thought, had doubled in that town, although there was but one 
 store. The business of the town having been diverted to other near- 
 by towns. He thought it was due to the fact that the post office had 
 been removed from that town and taken to some other place. There 
 are a great many factors that have got to be taken into consideration. 
 
 Mr. Miller. A railroad may be diverted ; we look at it from a gen- 
 eral view point. 
 
 The Chairman. But your whole position, Mr. Miller, is based upon 
 the assumption that the country merchant or retail storekeeper is go- 
 ing to be injured by any increase in scope in the present activity of 
 fourth-class mail. Is that correct? 
 
 Mr. Miller. Covering this matter ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you, indeed, Mr. 
 Miller. 
 
TESTIMONY OF MR. R. A. McCORMICX 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. McCormick, it is necessary that you be sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly state your age, residence, and 
 occupation ? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. Fifty-six. I am a resident of Baltimore. My 
 name is, I believe I stated, Robert A. McCormick. I am a member 
 of the firm of McCormick & Co., manufacturers and importers. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you a member of any commercial association? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. My firm, you mean ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. McCormick. My firm is a member of the Travelers and Mer- 
 chants' Association; the Merchants and Manufacturers'; the Balti- 
 more Drug Exchange, which is not mentioned there, and the National 
 Flavoring Extract Manufacturers' Association, and many other asso- 
 ciations. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, in your appearance here to-day before the 
 committee do you come as representing the firm or as representing the 
 various associations? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. Representing our firm ; particularly representing 
 the Baltimore Drug Exchange, and also by request of the president 
 of the Travelers and Merchants' Association, and representing the 
 executive committee of that body to the extent that they would give the 
 feeling, as expressed through him, of the opposition of the organiza- 
 tion to the law as proposed. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, to an extension of the parcel post? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. Yes; to what is indefinably possibly known as 
 the parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, where you express your own views, will 
 you kindly just designate; otherwise, unless you particularize, we 
 will assume that you represent the views of these associations that 
 you have mentioned. 
 
 Mr. McCormick. I will so designate. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you in favor of or opposed to increasing the 
 weight limit of our fourth-class mail matter from 4 pounds to 11 
 pounds and a decrease in the rate of postage? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. Mr. Chairman: The question of a parcel post, 
 and the increase and decrease, as you have just outlined, is such a 
 great one that it affects the whole country to such an extent that 
 personally it is appalling to me. I would say for myself personally 
 that until a few weeks ago I was to some extent greater or less in 
 favor of a parcel post. I do not know how I arrived at the belief 
 that it might be best for the country. I believed unquestionably that 
 it was the best thing for the consumer. I believe also that though 
 it might injure our particular business, I am broad enough to place 
 myself in a position of being willing to subordinate my interests 
 personally and the interests of my firm to the good to the greatest 
 728 
 
PARCEL. POST. 729 
 
 number in the United States. A few weeks ago in a conference with 
 our sales manager and my brother, Mr. W. M. McCormick, who is 
 president of the Flavoring Extract Manufacturers' Association, we 
 went into the subject rather fully, and they were surprised to find 
 that I was in favor of a parcel post. I appear to-day rather in the 
 nature of a convert against the parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, a late convert ? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. Yes. At any rate, I have changed my views to 
 some extent. I have not had time to give the matter my personal 
 attention or the study that the very great and serious question needs, 
 and I asked our sales manager, Mr. Bond, to formulate the different 
 opinions that he brought to our attention. 
 
 The Chairman. Was it he who converted you or changed you ? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. Well, we will say he was one of the elements or 
 one of the factors. 
 
 The Chairman. We will be glad to get his views. 
 
 Mr. McCormick. This paper is entitled " Why We Oppose the 
 Parcel Post." I might preface my remarks by saying if I was to 
 read this paper myself there are certain things in it that I would 
 express differently. If this committee at any time thought that my 
 own personal- judgment was necessary to enable them to come to 
 a direct conclusion in this matter, I should be pleased to place a brief 
 before them at a future date, but in the main this expresses what 
 I believe myself. I would say also that it has been presented to 
 the Board of the Baltimore Drug Exchange, numbering about 48 
 of the manufacturers and jobbers of the city of Baltimore. In addi- 
 tion to that I understand that copies have been personally read and 
 indorsed by a majority of the membership of that association. 
 
 (The paper referred to is as follows:) 
 
 WHY WE OPPOSE THE PARCEL POST. 
 
 The principal argument of the unthinking in supporting the establishment of 
 a parcel post in this country is: There are four reasons for a parcel post, tho 
 Adams, American, Wells-Fargo, and United States Express companies. And, in 
 the attempt to "get back" at the express companies because of exorbitant 
 rates, the main issue is sneered aside. 
 
 These zealous advocates of change do not cite the three real sponsors of the 
 parcel post, all directly and selfishly interested, in its establishment: The rail- 
 road companies, the mail-order combine, and the newspapers and magazines 
 whose existence depends on mail-order advertising. 
 
 We are opposed to the parcel post — 
 
 Because it is directly contrary to the established policy of the United States 
 Government not to interfere with any well regulated business. 
 
 Because it commits the Government to a policy of acting as a common car- 
 rier of goods, and establishes a precedent for further enlargement in scope of 
 service to freight, express and individuals; and, through government control, 
 leads by natural process to Government ownership of transportation systems, 
 with all the ensuing evils. 
 
 Because the demand is from the few and for the few; the mail-order houses, 
 the railroads, and the mail-order press seeking additional profit through the 
 employment of an agency paid for by the many. 
 
 Because the direct sufferers would be the hundreds of thousands of small re- 
 tailers in every section of the country, who would be directly taxed to benefit 
 a few huge corporations, in addition to losing a large percentage of the business 
 rightfully theirs from locating, investment, and years of honored and satisfac- 
 tory service of the public. 
 
 Because it would affect the prosperity of every small town in every State 
 of the Union, by deflecting business and diverting cash to the business centers, 
 
 21845— vol 3—12 10 
 
730 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 centralizing the wealth of the Nation in a few banking institutions; and cur- 
 tailing the means of livelihood of hundreds of thousands of home-earning, tax- 
 paying citizens. 
 
 Because it Is an application of the principle of paternalism in government, 
 which would place the Nation in the position of indorsing trust methods, instead 
 of protecting its citizens — who pay the expense of government — from further 
 aggressions, inevitable with centralization of capital in semimonopolies of the 
 necessities of life, gained through increased purchasing power consequent upon 
 the magnitude of the business transacted. 
 
 Because the centralization of production or distribution and of control- 
 governmental or financial — removes all healthy competition, in itself a surety 
 of fair prices to the consumer. 
 
 But, all ethical questions aside, and speaking entirely from an economic view- 
 point, as a buyer, consumer, and taxpayer, we are opposed to the parcel post. 
 
 Because it means an increased postal deficit and will inevitably result in an 
 immense increase in the working force of the Post Office Department without 
 adequate financial return to the public. 
 
 Germany and Great Britain have a parcel post, it is true, but did you ever 
 stop to realize — 
 
 That the average haul in England and Germany is 40 miles against 540 in 
 the United States? 
 
 That Germany owns her railroads and makes no charge to the post-office 
 department for carrying the mails? 
 
 That while England has the parcel post Canada has it in but a limited way 
 and is opposing any extension? 
 
 That England has an income from second-class matter, carrying books and 
 periodicals for 5 cents a pound or two pounds for 7 cents, while the United 
 States shows a loss with a rate of 1 cent a pound. 
 
 That there is no such thing as rural free delivery in parcel-post countries, 
 the farmers living in villages or else as in Germany paying $4,000,000 annually 
 for the privilege of having post-office boxes? 
 
 That the increase in mail matter under the parcel post would necessitate 
 the employment of thousands of additional carriers, and that in the rural 
 delivery it would be necessary to increase each carrier's salary at least $300 
 a year? 
 
 That the deficit in the rural free-delivery service is now about $28,000,000 
 yearly and would be enormously increased by a low price per pound rate on 
 bulky matter to be delivered in the same localities? 
 
 That the railroads would be the gainers instead of the express companies, 
 since the railroads now receive 1 cent a pound from the express companies for 
 service rendered, while the Government pays more than 5 cents a pound for 
 hauling the mails? 
 
 That the Interstate Commerce Commission has the power to force the express 
 companies to grant equitable rates for service, and that it is not necessary for 
 the Government to become a common carrier to lower transportation rates 
 through tax-paid competition? 
 
 We oppose the parcel post principally because it strikes at the root of our 
 national prosperity — the diversified interests of the small town — and would 
 substitute a governmentally sponsored method of manufacture and distribution 
 which would fatten the few at the expense of many. 
 
 John Stuart Mill states incisively: The community tnat contains the greatest 
 diversity of industries will always be the most prosperous and intelligent. It 
 will be a sad day for this Nation when its busy small manufacturers and 
 retailers give way to a horde of mail-order agencies, and the post office becomes 
 the sutler's tent of the industrial army. 
 
 Sugar coat the pill as you will, the parcel post agitation is a self-seeking, 
 commercializing sham, sought by the few, advocated by the few, and aimed at 
 the many, who through ignorance or carelessness fail to grasp its scope or its 
 perils. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you anything to add to that at all? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. I do not know except that I think I would like 
 to say, with reference to a question that you asked as to cost of doing 
 business 
 
 The Chairman. On a percentage basis? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. On a percentage basis. 
 
PARCEL, POST. 731 
 
 The Chairman. Did Mr. Miller give it ? 
 
 Mr. McCokmick. No ; Mr. Phillips. That matter can certainly be 
 obtained from the reports of Bradstreet and Dun beyond perad- 
 venture of a doubt. 
 
 The Chairman. I wanted to get the authority on which Mr. 
 Phillips based the statement. 
 
 Mr. McCormick. I understood he was going to give it to you. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If I understand the paper, the objection to the 
 parcel post is based upon two reasons. First, it would injure the 
 small merchant in the small town. Second, it would increase the 
 postal deficit. Those were the two main reasons assigned in the 
 paper, as I remember. Is that correct ? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. Yes, sir ; they are two of the reasons. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If a system could be devised that would not in- 
 crease the deficit, but would sustain itself, at probably a small profit 
 to the Government, that would remove that objection, would it not? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. Unquestionably ; provided it was not more than 
 offset by some injury. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That would, of course, remove that specific ob- 
 jection. Then, that would leave the question as to whether or not 
 the system would injure the small towns as the remaining reason of 
 objection? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. As against the present system. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What kind of a parcel post did you have in 
 mind when you stated that you thought it would injure the small 
 community? Was that a flat rate, the same charge for any distance? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. It was. I had not considered what you term a 
 zone system, and with which I really am unfamiliar, for I do not 
 know its scope. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, in order that you may consider that phase 
 of it, suppose that every post office was made the center of its own 
 zone and that the charge be based upon the distance the article is to 
 be transported from that center. We will take, for instance, Fred- 
 erick, Md., and say there was a charge of 4 cents a pound — I just 
 mention that to get some figure to work on — to any post office within 
 a radius of 50 miles of Frederick, and 6 cents a pound, we will say, 
 within 150 miles, 7 cents a pound within 300 miles, and so on until 
 we had a rate, we will say, of 10 or 12 cents a pound for a thousand 
 miles, or twelve hundred miles, or whatever it might be worked out. 
 Do you not think that that would protect the local merchant from 
 any advantage to competitors in the large distant zone cities ? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. I would not like to give an offhand opinion in 
 reply to as big a question as you put before me, embracing as it does 
 transportation and the cost of transportation, both by mail, by ex- 
 press, and by freight. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The paper assumes that the interests in the 
 country that want a parcel post are the mail-order houses? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. That is the belief that I have come to, and also 
 that it will eventually result in injury to the majority of the 
 consumers. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I might say for the information of the gentle- 
 men present that I have never received a communication of any kind 
 from the department stores in behalf of a parcel post, and that the 
 interests that have advocated it, so far as my observation has gone, 
 
732 PARCEL POST. 
 
 have not been the mail-order houses ; they may be in favor of it, 
 but I haven't any evidence of that here, except what appears in the 
 hearing from the retail merchant, he fearing that they desire it. 
 But if the retail merchant in any small community has a better rate 
 to reach his customers within the radius of his operations than his 
 competitors 100, 500, or 1,000 miles away, that would not be an injury 
 to the local merchant, would it ? 
 
 Mr. McCoemick. I think I can conceive that it might not be, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is what I wanted to get your judgment on. 
 Of course I do not hesitate to say that it seems to me if the local 
 merchant has a better rate to reach his customers within the radius 
 of his operations than his competitor in a distant city would have, 
 that such a system as that could not militate against him. It could 
 not hurt him because he gets a better rate than the other fellow. If 
 the other fellow had the same rate he might get into that territory, 
 having larger and better facilities for advertising, etc., to the disad- 
 vantage of the local merchant. 
 
 Mr. McCormick. It would seem to me, without studying the ques- 
 tion very much, that it would increase the competition to the retail 
 dealer over what exists at the present time. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How would it increase it if the local dealer has 
 a better rate than his competitor? It does not give his competitor 
 any advantage over him. 
 
 Mr. McCormick. How much would be the difference? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, of course, that would depend upon the 
 judgment ultimately of the different members of the committee. 
 
 The Chairman. Then of Congress? 
 
 Senator Bristow. I think that all transportation should be based 
 on the service rendered and not on what the transportation company 
 can get. 
 
 Mr. McCormick. Unquestionably. I think that is right. 
 
 Senator Brtstow. And in the transportation of merchandise I 
 would put a different system in from the transportation of letters, 
 newspapers, and mag-azines. the latter serving 1 an additional purpose, 
 being: a mail facility for the dissemination of intelligence, of educa- 
 tion nl purposes to build up an intelligent and well-informed citi- 
 zenship, so that we circulate mag-azines, newspapers, and communica- 
 tions of that kind at a very low rate. 
 
 Mr. McCormick. You asked me a question that I do not believe I 
 gave a very clear replv to. and I want to give it ag^in if I can. 
 Will you kindly have the stenographer read the question to me, sir? 
 
 Senator Brtstow. Certainly. 
 
 (The stenographer read the question as follows:) 
 
 Senator Bbtstow. Thrt is what I wanted to get your judgment on. Of 
 course, I do not hesitate to say that it seems to me if the local merchant has a 
 better rate to reach his customers within the radius of his operations thf>n his 
 competitor in a distant city would have that such a system as that could not 
 militate against him. rt could not hurt him because he gets a better rate than 
 r^e other fellow. If the other fellow had the same rate he might get into that 
 territory, having larger and better facilities for advertising, etc., to the disad- 
 vantage of the local merchant. 
 
 Mr. McCormick. Senator, I think we will have to pass that ques- 
 tion. I will have to give you a reply later. I do not want to appear 
 as equivocating in the least, but that is a question I believe would ba 
 affected by the freight and express charges, as well as postal charges. 
 
PABCEL POST. 733 
 
 which are all vital factors in the cost and effect, the cost of business. 
 What it might do, it might effect one merchant favorably and another 
 unfavorably; and, of course, what you gentlemen want to do is to 
 find out what would be the greatest good to the greatest number. 
 
 The Chairman. That is what we are after. But isn't it true the 
 cost is the main determining factor in business operations. 
 
 Mr. McCohmick. Unquestionably, I think so. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the fundamental principle. 
 
 Mr. McCormick. Yes. Everybody wants to get goods just as cheap 
 as they can. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, a parcel post is intended for the conven- 
 ience of the people in sending small packages, supplementing what 
 the express companies now furnish, only enlarging it very much and 
 providing equal rates for all people who use the service; not charging 
 one community 25 or 50 cents for transporting a package for 15 miles 
 and another community half that for transporting the same distance, 
 as the express companies frequently do. The objection to that now 
 comes from the jobbing houses and the retail merchants anticipating 
 that it will give their competitors, the mail-order houses, an ad- 
 vantage over them. Now, if the mail-order houses in the large cities . 
 have to transport long distances to get to the country consumer, have 
 to pay an equitable charge for the service they receive, and the local 
 merchant pays an equitable charge for the service he receives, which 
 is very much less than the service the distant merchant receives, I 
 do not see how the local merchant can suffer under conditions of 
 that kind ? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. I understand that the zone system would not 
 allow a package to be sent from here to San Francisco as cheap as 
 from here to Pittsburgh ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Oh, no. That is right. Or as cheap from Pitts- 
 burgh to here as from Frederick here. 
 
 Mr. McCormick. I believe that if the retail dealers in the country 
 were given even a slight advantage — and I do not think that this 
 differential of freight incident to the zone system would be more 
 than a slight advantage — I am inclined to believe that the majority 
 of the orders would be centralized and given to the mail-order houses. 
 
 The Chairman. For what reasons, in that connection ? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. One of the gentlemen who preceded me brought 
 out the matter of sentiment. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean more style? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. The matter of moving people by putting before 
 them the glamour of buying in a great city, exactly the same thing 
 that carries the young man from the farm to-day to the city. I do 
 not know how to define it or express it, but it exists beyond any ques- 
 tion. I will give an accurate example of that. There is no question 
 in the world to-day that in the city of Baltimore, in my line, or in a 
 number of other lines, that the consumer can buy goods just as cheap 
 in the city of Baltimore from his dealer as he can from a mail-order 
 house in the distance, and a great deal cheaper, and still I can not 
 explain it. 
 
 There exists to-day in Baltimore, probably several hundred clubs. 
 I am told they run up to the number of 200, but I will say 50, for 
 example. These clubs are organized by the mail-order houses who 
 give premiums to the housewife who organizes a club, and for the 
 
734 PARCEL POST. 
 
 sake of getting a premium she induces her neighbors to buy through 
 her and from the house, and I know that these goods cost the con- 
 sumer more than they could buy them from the local dealer for, and 
 at the same time they are buying a greater quantity, more than they 
 need, or more than they are able to, in order to get the premium. 
 You would have to go further than me in order to get an explanation 
 of why such a condition exists. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You mean to say these mail-order houses do a 
 large amount of business in Baltimore? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. I mean to say they do an enormous business right 
 in Baltimore. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They do a great deal of it in Washington. 
 
 The Chairman. How do they ship their goods to Baltimore to these 
 clubs, which you say are 50 in number? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. I could not give you sufficiently definite infor- 
 mation as to that. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any impression? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. My impression is most of the goods are shipped 
 by freight. 
 
 The Chairman. Because of the assembling? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. Yes ; I am quite sure that is the case. 
 
 Senator Bristow. This business you describe here is being con- 
 ducted now very extensively by the mail-order houses throughout the 
 country under present conditions. The people are using the freight 
 and the express, and only using the mails in a limited way, as I 
 understand it. Now, any convenience that might be extended to the 
 masses of the people in the performance of the parcel post, or the 
 mails, to send their small packages, that did not give the mail-order 
 house any advantage that it does not now have, would not affect this 
 condition one way or another, would it? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. Your ground seems to be well taken, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I do not think there is a member of the com- 
 mittee who has a desire to favor any legislation that would be unjust 
 or give the large dealer an advantage over the small one. I know I 
 would not do it. 
 
 The Chairman. That is quite true. 
 
 Mr. McCormick. I do not believe they would. I should hate to 
 believe they would. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Mr. McCormick, as I understand the paper you 
 have read there, the gentleman who prepared it seemed to think that 
 the railroad companies are in favor of the extension of the parcel 
 post, and then he appeared to demonstrate to his own satisfaction that 
 the establishment of a parcel post will inevitably lead to Government 
 ownership. Don't you think that puts him in the position of arguing 
 that the railroads favor Government ownership? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. That particular point is one of the questions I 
 asked him about. I asked what evidence he had that the railroads 
 were in favor of a parcel post. I present that point for what it is 
 worth. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Well, you do not believe in that point, do you? 
 
 Mr. McCormick. I do not know. He gave me some reasons for 
 believing. I certainly would not make a statement here unless I had 
 pretty good evidence that it was a fact. 
 
PARCEL POST. 735 
 
 Senator Bryan. It struck me as so remarkable that a railroad 
 company was urging the adoption of a scheme that would ultimately 
 result in its elimination from business. 
 
 Mr. McCoemick. Wasn't it Mr. Hill who, not long ago, said that 
 ultimately the Government would own the railroads? I believe it 
 was he. 
 
 Senator Bryan. It may be the other way. 
 
 Mr. McCormick. No ; I do not think so. 
 
 Senator Bryan. At the present time they get a large percentage 
 of the earnings of the express companies. 
 
 Mr. McCormick. Not as large as they ought possibly to get. 
 
 Senator Bryan. No. I agree with you there. I believe they 
 ought to be made to do the business they are chartered to do, for the 
 express companies have no economic reasons for their existence. 
 
 Mr. McCormick. None whatever, sir. I have taken up a great 
 deal of your time, and unless I can further enlighten you I will not 
 consume any more of your time. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you for your views. 
 
TESTIMONY OF MR. W. E. JENKINS. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Jenkins, it will be necessary that you be 
 sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Jenkins, will you kindly state your age, your 
 residence, and occupation? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Age, 54 ; Baltimore, Md. ; traveling salesman. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you associated with any business associations? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. I am representing the local council of the United 
 Commercial Travelers of America, which has 400 members. 
 
 The Chairman. And the Travelers' Protective Association ? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. My colleague is present and he will represent them. 
 
 The Chairman. You appear for the United Order of" Commercial 
 Travelers' of America? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Yes, sir. The Maryland branch, the local branch. 
 
 The Chairman. And the views you present for the committee will 
 be the views of the association wholly or some of your own ? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. No; they -will be wholly the views of the associa- 
 tion, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly give the committee the benefit 
 of their views regarding the parcel-post question? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Senator, we believe, and are in a position to know 
 from contact with our customers, that the parcel-post bill will, in 
 our judgment, be disastrous to the business interests of the country. 
 We come in contact with the retail merchants, the jobber, and the 
 manufacturer. If you cut down the -sales of the country merchant 
 you are going to reduce the business of the jobbing trade, and conse- 
 quently will curtail the output of a number of manufacturers. 
 
 The Chairman. You say you come in contact with the manu- 
 facturer, the jobber, and the country merchant. You mean that your 
 association embodies all those classes? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. No, sir ; but in traveling we come in contact with 
 all of those classes, you see? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. I am only giving you the views of the commercial 
 travelers. We embrace every line in our association. Moreover, we 
 appear here because we believe the passage of this bill will directly 
 affect ourselves. We have heard a good many views here this morn- 
 ing about protecting the retail merchants, but we wish to protest 
 against the passage of this bill on our own behalf, because we believe 
 it will put over half of us out of business. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, if it injures your customers, it certainly 
 injures you. 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Undoubtedly. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why do you think it will put half of you out 
 of business? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. It is bound to reduce the sales of the country mer- 
 chant; consequently we will not be able to sell him as many goods 
 as we have in the past. 
 736 
 
PARCEL POST. 737 
 
 ■*'<*-"■ I 
 
 Senator Beistow. Well now, that would be because you think he 
 would buy from the mail-order houses. 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. No; because the mail-order houses would get his 
 business, or a large portion of it, and he would not be able to carry 
 the stock he does now. 
 
 Senator Beistow. You think that this would help the mail-order 
 houses ? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Undoubtedly ; yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Even under the zone system that I described a 
 few minutes ago, you think that it would ? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. It would help the mail-order houses to an extent, 
 but it would also injure the country merchant — the zone system. 
 
 Senator Beistow. How? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Within the radius as you outlined — you said 50 
 miles, I believe, Senator? 
 
 Senator Beistow. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. There would naturally be some large towns or cities 
 there. It would give the larger dealers in the large towns an ad- 
 vantage over the country merchant. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Any advantage he does not have now? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Yes. 
 
 Senator Beistow. What advantage that he does not have now ? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. It would enable him to get up a catalogue himself 
 and send it throughout the country and send his goods right to the 
 retail marchant's customer at the same price he could deliver them 
 himself. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Isn't he doing that now? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. I do not think so. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Hasn't he that opportunity now ? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. He has that opportunity 
 
 Senator Beistow. Doesn't he have the express rate the same now ? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Well, your idea would be 
 
 Senator Beistow. If there is any difference the large community 
 has the advantage of the low rate? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. But you propose, as I understand it, to extend this 
 zone system to the rural-free delivery? 
 
 Senator Beistow. I would make that different. I would give the 
 rural free-delivery man the town that has the rural free-delivery 
 service, a special rate on mail originating on rural routes intended for 
 delivery on those same routes. Under a zone system, I say, I would 
 make that different. 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Well, it is true that now a merchant living in a 
 large city within a radius of 50 miles, if you please, could send pack- 
 ages by mail at the present rate. If you reduced the cost of sending 
 those packages it would give him a decided advantage for this rea- 
 son—and I am pretty certain that they would do it, because some 
 houses already do it in, say for instance, a town like Indianapolis, 
 Ind.; they would send out through Indiana within a radius of 50 
 miles, if you please, and find out from the banks the name of every 
 farmer or any other merchant, who would buy from them, that were 
 financially all right, and send a letter to that family offering to open 
 a charge account. There is nothing more attractive to a woman 
 than a charge account in a large town. That would naturally draw 
 ■f™m tho W9I merchant's business a large amount of trade which he 
 
738 PAECEL POST. 
 
 was naturally entitled to and which he would keep if that was not 
 the case. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is being done now, isn't it? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. It is to a certain extent ; yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Are there not a great many merchants and asso- 
 ciations in the larger towns that will pay the transportation of a 
 party in a town to and fro if they will buy so many goods from them? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. All these things are being done now? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. All these things are being done now. 
 
 Senator Bristow. So that the country merchant is having a harder 
 fight because of increased transportation facilities, where they have 
 the trolley lines and so on? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Yes, sir. He is having a harder fight to get along 
 now than he ever had before in his life. 
 
 Senator Bristow. He don't have the facilities that the large mer- 
 chant has, but from the statements made here it appears that he can 
 do business on 12 per cent of the cost, while the large merchant has 
 25 per cent of the cost or double what the country merchant has. 
 Now, if the country merchant has the same opportunity to send his 
 stuff on an average of 50 miles that the city merchant has for the 
 same price, and has the same facility, the mails, and not having to 
 depend on trolleys, etc., does it not give him an advantage over the 
 city competitor so far as it goes? 
 
 Mr. Jenktns. Of course it would give him equal facilities. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Which he does not now have because it don't 
 radiate from him. The mails go evervwhere, but these other facili- 
 ties just run into the densely populated regions. 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Well, it would give him equal facilities by extend- 
 ing the facilities to the larger towns which would be in that radius. 
 It would give his competitors an advantage over him, to my mind. 
 
 Senator Bristow. An advantage which they now have. They have 
 that advantage now. 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Well, it would give him a greater advantage be- 
 cause they would be able to get their goods to him at lesser cost. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Not at lesser cost than he can now. It don't 
 give him any advantage in a matter of cost because he has the same 
 costs within a fixed radius, and if a large merchant is outside of 
 this radius of, say, 50 miles he could not have the same rate. 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Well you understand probably that a large concern 
 in a town handling a very great amount of business could naturally 
 buy at lower prices than the smaller merchant in the smaller towns. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. If it could not it could not beat him in the 
 race for business, could it? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. No. 
 
 Senator Brtstow. Now, we do not propose to give the big man any 
 lower rates than the little one. If the same business principle was 
 established as this postal system proposes, the big man could not do 
 business any better than the little one, because he could not buy 
 cheaper. Now, in the matter of transportation, if every man has 
 the same opportunity to have his stuff carried the same distance for 
 the same price, I can not see where the other fellow has an advantage 
 in transportation. He may have advantages in other lines that we 
 can not take away from him and we are not here trying to legislate 
 it out or legislate it in, but the purpose here is to supply a convenience 
 
PARCEL POST. 739 
 
 that does not exist, and to benefit everybody and give everybody 
 an equal opportunity to utilize this additional facility. 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. I see. Well, the point I wish to make in behalf of 
 our association is that the facility of any parcel post bill will neces- 
 sarily tend to reduce the retail merchants business in favor of the 
 larger houses no matter where they are located. 
 
 The Chairman. Your whole contention rests upon that assumption, 
 does it, that the retail merchant would be injured? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. That he would be injured; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. If he would not be injured, your objection would 
 cease? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. If he would not be injured, our objections would 
 cease. But we believe that he will, and we believe we will also be 
 injured, because the houses will not have as much use for our services 
 as they do now. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I concur with you, if your volume of busi- 
 ness is restricted, it would result in injury. 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Moreover, we have had a panic in this country and 
 business has been depressed for the last five years. We believe if a 
 bill of this kind is enacted into law, it would destroy confidence 
 among the retail merchants, and to a greater extent not only the 
 retailers, but the jobbers and manufacturers as well, than now exists, 
 and we will therefore have continued depression throughout the 
 country. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You think an increased facility for the trans- 
 portation of business and the cheapening of that expense would bring 
 about a panic. I can not understand that argument. 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. In this way: The retail merchant is very cautious 
 anyhow as a usual thing. He takes alarm at the least little thing. 
 
 The Chairman. The dollar is sensitive anywhere. 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. The dollar is sensitive anywhere, and whenever you 
 tap his pocketbook he retrenches immediately. Now, if Congress 
 passes a parcel-post bill and the retail merchants feel that this is 
 going to injure their business, and we feel it will 
 
 Senator Bristow. They think it will because they do not under- 
 stand just what the nature of the bill is. 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Senator, may I ask you a question ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Certainly. I will be glad to have you do so. 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Where does the demand for a parcel post come from? 
 
 Senator Bristow. The demand as I receive it comes from citizens 
 all over the country. 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. What class of citizens ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Farmers, as a rule. 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Of course we do not come into contact with the farm- 
 ing element, but I have traveled through some of the Southern 
 States. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I received a letter this morning from the grange 
 organized in Shawnee County, Kans., stating that the grange had 
 unanimously passed a resolution urging the passage of the parcel-post 
 bill. I received a protest from some one in Kansas, a merchant, 
 saying it would injure his business. 
 
 Now, it is generally believed — I don't know whether there is any 
 basis for it or not — that the opposition to a parcel post is from the 
 express companies, and that all this other opposition has been worked 
 
740 PARCEL POST. 
 
 stores and mail-order houses are behind the movement for a parcel 
 post. Now, I doubt the correctness of either one of those statements. 
 1 think the express companies are opposed to a parcel post because it 
 would take away from them a great deal of their business upon which 
 they now get a very extravagant rate, the small packages for short 
 distances. I think if the mails would give the same rate, or a better 
 rate to send packages than the people now have, they would be glad 
 to have it. 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Yes; undoubtedly they would. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I think that is true. But the opposition to the 
 parcel post comes from a great many gentlemen who are alarmed and 
 afraid they are going to be hurt, and it seems to me very much more 
 than there is a justification for an alarm, and the probabilities are 
 that the most enthusiastic and urgent advocates of the parcel post will 
 not get as great an advantage from the parcel post as they think they 
 are going to get. 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Well, from the opinions we can get from our custo- 
 mers, the consensus is that this bill, if it is enacted into a law, is go- 
 ing to seriously injure their business. We are confident if their views 
 prevail it will seriously injure us as a body, and for that reason we 
 are unalterably opposed to any kind of parcel-post legislation. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, isn't that based upon the quality that affects 
 all human nature, namely, that there are none of us willing to have a 
 change made unless we believe that change will directly benefit us, or 
 indirectly benefit us in the way of improved general welfare, in which 
 we, as a participant, will benefit proportionately? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Yes, sir; I suppose so. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the underlying principle of the whole busi- 
 ness. Everybody wants to be shown, and if shown that the change 
 will benefit their interests, they are all for it, and you are looking 
 upon us as having the responsibility to show ? 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. Well, we are putting up the best defense that we can 
 for our business. 
 
 The Chairman. And we want that and we appreciate it. 
 
 Mr. Jenkins. The association I represent, the United Commercial 
 Travelers, has a membership of about 65,000. Now, we give the 
 opinion not only from our local council in Baltimore, but we have 
 about 560 other councils scattered in every State and Territory, and 
 it is the opinion of all of the councils, when consulted about the mat- 
 ter, that this parcel post will be a detriment to our business and re- 
 duce our ranks. Our business is our stock, and I want therefore to 
 utter our protest against this bill. 
 
 The Chairman. I have had a number of letters from merchants 
 favoring the parcel post. They take the viewpoint that it will be 
 beneficial to the country merchant from their viewpoint. I agree 
 with you that sentiment temporarily affects values — it can not be 
 permanent, but temporarily it will affect values — but if there were a 
 unanimous opposition to the enlargement of the scope of our fourth- 
 class mail matter on the part of the merchants of the country, that 
 business would be affected, but only temporarily, provided the oppo- 
 sition was not based upon facts that demonstration would verify as 
 being correct. Of. course the problem can only be demonstrated 
 satisfactorily and conclusively by actual trial, application, and 
 demonstration. That is the problem that confronts us. We are very 
 much obliged to you, Mr. Jenkins. 
 
TESTIMONY OF ME. HENKY F. POSKE. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Poske, it will be necessary that you be sworn. 
 
 ( Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman-. Kindly state your age, residence, and occupation. 
 
 Mr. Poske. Henry F. Poske ; Baltimore, Md. ; traveling salesman ; 
 representing the Maryland division of the Travelers' Protective 
 Association. 
 
 The Chairman. And you appear here before the committee to pre- 
 sent the views of your association? 
 
 Mr. Poske. I do, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Then we may infer that everything you say repre- 
 sents their views? Where you present your own views, kindly so 
 designate. 
 
 Mr. Poske. Yes, sir. I simply wish to state to this committee I 
 have been a traveling man for 42 years. I have traveled two States 
 of the South, Virginia and North Carolina, and have come into 
 contact with from three to five thousand merchants two or three 
 times annually. I have discussed with them the merits pro a'nd con 
 of a parcel post. While the actual needs of that thing is a problem 
 to the country at large, and while the merchants themselves show a 
 decided opposition, I have inquired the reasons and find they have 
 them sufficiently. In my opinion, a parcel post will hurt the mer- 
 chants in the little towns of from 3,000 to 20,000 more than it will 
 the large commercial concerns in the large cities. It will increase 
 the volume of business for all large catalogue houses. Twenty-five 
 or twenty-seven per cent cuts no figure when they have the banks 
 at their command to discount their bills, which amount to 18 per 
 cent, and yet in the general-merchandise business a 25 per cent nr 
 a 40 to 50 per cent profit gives them a better profit than the country 
 merchant can realize on a 12 per cent cost of doing business. The 
 volume has been entirely overlooked here in the various arguments ; 
 facilities for raising money to discount bills, which is a great factor, 
 and that has also been overlooked, and the means of distribution is 
 the problem we are getting at right now. Is that correct, Senator ? 
 
 The Chairman. That is what we are trying to get at. 
 
 Mr. Poske. Now, when you go to these little towns and see the 
 express deliveries of packages, men's suits, ladies' suits, household 
 ware of all kinds, you find the very same merchandise on the shelves 
 of the men you deal with and sell merchandise to. You ask them 
 why is this? They say it is because of the flaming catalogue, the 
 sentimental, emotional advertising has caught them. I was asked 
 to come here and I am unprepared, for I have not read the parcel-post 
 bill sufficiently to enlighten myself fully on the subject, but I will 
 say to you that I think the parcel post would be detrimental to the 
 interests of the small dealer, and detrimental in more than one way. 
 I properly may go a little further and say from what I have read — 
 and I am a good reader and a close reader — you have a deficit in our 
 
 741 
 
742 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 fourth-class matter of so many million dollars. Now, you have to 
 pay the railroads something to carry the parcels. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean a deficit in the fourth or the second 
 class mail matter? 
 
 Mr. Poske. Well, whichever it is. I am not as well posted on 
 that as you. However, you have to pay the railroads for carrying 
 your packages; somebody has to carry them and they are not going 
 to carry them for nothing. You have a deficit now in something that 
 educates. Now, here is something that is useful. Who is going 
 to pay the deficit, and where is it to come from? I am asking now 
 for information. If you can enlighten me that the cost of it will 
 not entail a deficit to the Government, I am satisfied, but I do not 
 see how that will work out. 
 
 The Chairman. Then your whole position hangs upon the sup- 
 position that a deficit will be created by the enlargement of the scope 
 of the fourth-class mail matter? 
 
 Mr. Poske. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And there your opposition ceases? 
 
 Mr. Poske. Not there exactly. It is detrimental to my own inter- 
 ests, as well as the small merchants. 
 
 The Chairman. But your position is, or that of the association 
 so far as you glean, is that they are opposed to any enlargement of 
 our present fourth-class mail matter upon the fear that it may injure 
 the retail merchants and the travelers of the United States? 
 
 Mr. Poske. Exactly so. 
 
 The Chairman. Your objections would disappear and you would 
 be in favor of it if it favored or helped the retail merchants? 
 
 Mr. Poske. I would. 
 
 The Chairman. Because the traveler would be benefited? 
 
 Mr. Poske. Benefited; sure. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged, Mr. Poske. 
 
 (Thereupon, at 1.45 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned, sub- 
 ject to the call of the chairman.) 
 
FRIDAY, DECEMBER 15, 1911. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), and Senator 
 Joseph L. Bristow. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF W. S. RICHARDSON. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Richardson, it will be necessary that you be 
 sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Kindly state your age, residence, and occupation. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. My name is W. S. Richardson ; I am 53 years of 
 age, and live in Washington, D. C. I represent the National Asso- 
 ciation of Retail Druggists. 
 
 The Chairman. In what capacity? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. As chairman of their legislative committee. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you explain for the benefit of the committee 
 the scope of your organization, its membership, and how widely it 
 is represented over the country? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. We represent about 35,000 retail druggists. Our 
 membership extends into every State in the Union. Of course, our 
 object is to benefit the retail druggists and protect ourselves, and 
 we have for a number of years been opposed to parcel post. I think 
 it has been pretty well known that we were so opposed. 
 
 The Chairman. You appear here to-day as the representative of 
 that organization, and the information that you submit to the com- 
 mittee and your views will be, as we understand, the views of your 
 association? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Therefore, wherever you represent your own views 
 will you kindly so specifiy, in order that the committee will be able 
 to make the distinction ? Have you a statement prepared ? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. No, sir ; I will be very brief with you. 
 
 The Chairman. First, I will ask you what nature or kind of a 
 parcel post you oppose? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. We are opposed to any form of parcel post, 
 because we believe that even with a local or rural parcel post that 
 the large houses can take advantage of it by using the system instead 
 of the freight. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you opposed to the present fourth-class mail 
 activity of the Government? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. You mean as at present constituted ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. No; we think the conditions to-day are all right, 
 and I think we have a good mail service. We believe in limiting it, 
 however, to four pounds, as it is to-day. We think that covers nearly 
 everything that should be sent through the mails. 
 
 7 
 
744 PABCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Your objection, as I take it, is against any exten- 
 sion of the present weight limit on fourth-class mail matter ? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And also against any reduction of postage on that 
 class ? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Yes, sir. We can not say why, but it evidently 
 costs the Government about as much as they get. I understand, from 
 a letter which I received from Postmaster General von Meyer, at one 
 time, that it costs the Government about 12 cents a pound on fourth- 
 class matter. 
 
 The Chairman. And they get about 16 cents? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. That would make a margin of 4 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. Which is a margin of 25 per cent on the price 
 asked. That has nothing to do with the particular feature we now 
 have under discussion. Will you kindly submit your suggestions? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. We believe the adoption of a parcel post, either 
 a general or a rural system only means the concentration of the great 
 commercial centers to the detriment of the small merchant and there 
 are thousands of them scattered all over the country. We believe 
 that is a burning question to-day, and there is a tendency to concen- 
 trate wealth and business. 
 
 The Chairman. Let me ask you in that connection, is it not true 
 that centralization of business, population, and government is an in- 
 evitable evolution incident to civilization? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Well, I think the tendency is to centralization. 
 
 The Chairman. You want no acceleration of this economic force. 
 Is that it? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. I believe the concentration or centralization, 
 while it is a burning question to-day, is rather a serious one. I think 
 that the business and the wealth of the country should be distributed. 
 
 The Chairman. How are you going to distribute it, by legislation? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. No. I do not think we can. But I do not think 
 we ought to make any legislation that will aid or assist in that move- 
 ment. I will be very sorry to see the wealth of this country get into 
 a few hands, and I think a majority of the people feel that way. 
 
 The Chairman. I think everybody but the few would, and prob- 
 ably they would in the end. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Yes. Possibly in the end. We have always be- 
 lived that the real advocates of this parcel post have been the mail- 
 order houses. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any knowledge of that fact, any proof, 
 or is it simply belief, as you stated ? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Weli, we believe that, and I think, if my memory 
 serves me right, you will find in a hearing that took place before a 
 House committee a statement that some of the mail-order houses did 
 favor it. I think you will find that in Mr. Burrow's testimony there. 
 
 The Chairman. Substantiated by evidence? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. As I remember it, by letter. 
 
 The Chairman. From mail-order houses? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. No ; from a person who had a conversation with 
 the president of Sears, Roebuck & Co. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Rosenwald? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. I think that is the name. I am only quoting 
 from my memory. 
 
PARCEL POST. 745 
 
 The Chairman. I will ask you to confine your evidence and your 
 views, if you will, please, to the facts and opinions of your organiza- 
 tion and yourself and such information as will corroborate and sub- 
 stantiate the position that you take in your opposition. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Well, we believe that the small merchant can not 
 compete with these large mail-order houses, as you call them, if you 
 give them a cheap delivery system. 
 
 The Chairman. It would be open to everybody. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Of course, open to everybody, but they have 
 greater advantages than the small man. 
 
 The Chairman. They have the same methods of transportation. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. They have the same methods. 
 
 The Chairman. By the railroads, the express companies, etc. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Yes ; and we believe the large men can take care 
 of themselves and the small man will need the help of the Govern- 
 ment ? 
 
 The Chairman. Then you favor paternalism, as far as the small 
 men are concerned? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. What do you mean, by the Government taking 
 care of them? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Well, I think the Government ought to to-day, 
 on account of the tendency to centralization. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think the Government should do anything 
 more than to give equal opportunity to every one of its citizens ? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. No ; I do not think the Government can do any- 
 thing else, but my idea is they should not enact any new laws which 
 should increase that tendency, or give them greater facilities for 
 doing it. That is our position. We have always taken the ground 
 that these rural centers were the life of the farmer in this way ; this 
 was where he congregated; they were educational to him. The 
 farmer came into town, met his neighbors, discussed the questions of 
 the day, got posted, and kept himself up to date on all kinds of 
 matters. 
 
 The Chairman. Don't you think the farmer does some reading by 
 himself ? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think his education depends entirely on 
 the influences he will acquire at the country store? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. No; but I think the farmers to-day are better 
 educated than they were years ago. 
 
 The Chairman. I think we all are. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. I certainly hope so, anyway. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. I am a farmer's son and got my education on a 
 farm. I drifted into the city because the farm did not offer me any 
 special advantages as I saw it. 
 
 The Chairman. Don't you think there are more advantages to-day, 
 with the extension of the transportation facilities and the opportunity 
 of getting mail, papers, and magazines, and with the telephone, etc., 
 or do you think those are a detriment? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. I think the extension of the facilities to the 
 farmers is a benefit to them, and I think education has aided them in 
 21845— vol 3—12 11 
 
746 PARCEL POST. 
 
 developing the farming business. I think they have used it to quite 
 an advantage, and I see up in my State, Vermont, many students and 
 teachers of high class who have left their occupations and become 
 farmers. 
 
 The Chairman. They have gone back to the farms ? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. They have gone back to the farms and to all 
 appearances are thrifty farmers. 
 
 The Chairman. I think we all like to get close to nature when 
 we have an opportunity. 
 
 Mr. Eichaedson. T think so. I think if I was to retire from busi- 
 ness I would go back and spend my last days on the farm where I 
 started from. I heard yesterday one of the Senators state that he 
 did not think he knew who the real persons were who wanted the 
 parcel post, and if I am not mistaken he spoke of the express com- 
 panies 
 
 The Chairman. What was that? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. He said he probably did not know who the real 
 parties were who were in favor of the parcel post or were not, and 
 used the express companies as an illustration. 
 
 The Chairman. When you quote a member of the committee or 
 a Member of Congress you should submit for your testimony a specific 
 statement. 
 
 Mr. Eichardson. Well, I wanted to say that brought to mind what 
 I have always contended personally, that there are probably some of 
 those wealthy corporations only waiting for this parcel post to be put 
 in operation when they will open up large houses, and I believe the 
 time is coming when such a corporation as the Beef Trust will manu- 
 facture its own hides into shoes, and I believe this parcel post will 
 enable them to deliver those shoes from Texas to the other parts of 
 the United States for about 5 cents a pair. That would probably 
 hurt the shoe industry of this country to a great extent, or at least 
 it would in my opinion. The opportunity for them to-day is not so 
 great. That is one of my apprehensions. 
 
 The Chairman. Your fears are predicated 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Upon the opportunities it would offer them. 
 
 The Chairman. And you assume the Beef Trust would go into the 
 shoe business? 
 
 Mr. Eichardson. I used that as an illustration. I think that there 
 are other lines of business which would take up the same advantage. 
 
 The Chairman. How is any particular line of business going to 
 get any advantage over any other line of business where an equal 
 opportunity is given and the scope of machinery in operation is 
 enlarged so that the privilege is extended to every citizen. 
 
 Mr. Eichardson. Well, for instance, take the mail-order houses. I 
 believe the people are induced to buy from them by their catalogues. 
 
 The Chairman. They are already carried as third-class matter, are 
 they not ? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. I understand that ; yes, sir. But I believe those 
 same people could go into their local stores and buy just as cheaply 
 as they can from the mail-order houses. 
 
 The Chairman. Why don't they go to their local stores now ? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Because they read those catalogues and are very 
 much impressed with the way they are gotten up, and I do not think 
 
PARCEL POST. 747 
 
 they go into the stores to find out what the goods would cost them 
 there. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, they do not do that now, under existing 
 conditions ? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. No. 
 
 The Chairman. Then how would the enlargement of the present 
 scope of the present fourth-class mail matter add a new activity into 
 the situation ? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. The catalogues — I have seen them — charge the ex- 
 press rate to their customers, in many instances, as I understand it. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know that? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. I am pretty sure that is the case. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, I have a telegram from one of the large 
 mail-order houses to the effect that 90 per cent of their business is 
 done by freight. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Well, I suppose the bulk of the goods have to be 
 shipped by freight. But I am quite sure they suggest what the ex- 
 press would be or state the goods have to be shipped by express. 
 
 The Chairman. Don't they rather favor sending by freight on the 
 assumption that by sending by freight the purchaser has an ad- 
 ditional inducement to get as many of his neighbors to cooperate with 
 him as possible, to make up the order of goods in a large amount, so 
 far as weight is concerned, so as to get a cheap rate? Isn't that 
 the policy, inferentially, of securing an agent in every would-be cus- 
 tomer ? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Yes. I think they have tried that ; that is good 
 business on their part and I could not blame them for doing it. I am 
 not blaming the mail-order houses at all. I am looking out for the 
 small man, trying to keep his business at home. It is there, at the 
 home, where the money should be used and where it should stay; 
 right there in the center and used over and over again. They want 
 this money from the little village, which should be kept there. 
 
 The Chairman. Sure. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. I don't think that the Government should go to 
 work and make any increased facilities by which the money would 
 have a tendency to get away from the rural centers. I think that the 
 money should be left at the rural centers and the small towns be 
 built up. 
 
 The Chairman. I don't think anyone will dispute that conten- 
 tion. But what the committee would like is proof that such would 
 be the result by the increase of the weight limit on fourth-class 
 matter from 4 pounds to 11 pounds and a decrease in the rate. You 
 predicate all your positions on assumptions. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. I believe there is many an article being sent 
 out by the mail-order houses to-day that weighs between 4 and 
 11 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. There is no doubt about that. But would they 
 send by mail if they had to pay twice the amount of postage that 
 they do if they sent 'it by freight? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Well, a 25-cent rate for 11 pounds, which I 
 think is one of the propositions, would be pretty cheap transporta- 
 tion, I think, from Chicago to Washington or from Washington 
 to California. 
 
748 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, it would not be cheap transportation as 
 compared with the freight rates. I do not know what bill you refer 
 to as containing a provision for 25 cents for 11 pounds from Wash- 
 ington to California. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Well, I think some bills propose a scaling rate 
 up to 11 pounds for 25 per cent. That is what was understood 
 over in the House when they had a hearing there, although I under- 
 stand this hearing is merely on the proposition of a general parcel 
 post. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. What the committee wants is all possible 
 views and information to make their study, determination, and 
 report to Congress. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. As I understand, they want that, and informa- 
 tion as to how the public feels about it, whether opposed or in favor 
 of it, and how large a percentage of the public is on one side and 
 also on the other. 
 
 The Chairman. And so far as I am concerned as one of the 
 members of the committee, I want to get the grounds on which the 
 opposition and the support of the proposition is sustained. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. As I said before, we believe it would result in 
 destroying thousands of small merchants. 
 
 The Chairman. But if convinced that there would be no destruc- 
 tion or injury to that class of society, your opposition would im- 
 mediately disappear, and if convinced that it would be a benefit to 
 that class of society you would be as strongly in support of the 
 proposition as you are opposed — is that right? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. If we could be convinced, but I do not think we 
 could from the study we have made of it. 
 
 The Chairman. How large a study have you made ? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. This has been a question with us for a number of 
 years, and it has been discussed at our annual conventions, and the 
 universal sentiment is that they are opposed to any extension of the 
 parcel post over what it is to-day. They take the ground that it 
 would mean further concentration of commercial interests and the 
 destruction of the small ones. That is the broad ground that they 
 take. 
 
 The Chairman. Has your association appointed a committee or 
 commission to go into thorough study of the question and then report 
 to your association? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. It has always been left to the legislative com- 
 mittee. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you the representative of the legislative com- 
 mittee here in Washington? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. What study have you made as the individual to 
 whom this study has been referred? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Well, I was given to understand that the farmers 
 were the ones who wanted a parcel post and who wanted to be bene- 
 fited by it, and I have for years been in the habit of going back to 
 my home in Vermont, spending two or three weeks, and, of course, 
 that is where the rural delivery routes are, and having an interest in 
 this affair I tried to talk with some of my neighbors about it to see 
 whether they wanted it, and they did not seem to be very well posted 
 
PARCEL POST. 749 
 
 in regard to the matter at all, and felt somewhat disinterested, and I 
 do not see how the farmer can be benefited. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that all of the study you have made in this 
 question, the fact that you have talked with a few of your neighbors 
 on your annual return to your home in Vermont ? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Well, that convinced me that the parties who are 
 promoting this, if I should call it that, have used that as an argu- 
 ment for it. 
 
 The Chairman. But what has that to do with the principle under- 
 lying the subject? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Well, I think that my first statement was that 
 we believe that the adoption of it means the concentration of com- 
 mercial interests to the detriment of the smaller interests. That is 
 what we believe it would do if you established it. 
 
 The Chairman. What I am trying to get for the benefit of the 
 committee, Congress, and the country is the process of investigation, 
 deductions, and conclusions that cause you to come to that belief, 
 whether that is just a matter of opinion, based upon no study what- 
 ever, or whether it is a conclusion based upon an exhaustive collation 
 of all possible information and study of that information and an- 
 alysis and deduction and conclusion. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. If you adopt a parcel post, in my opinion you 
 will have a greater amount of advertising and solicitations through 
 catalogues and advertising, and the public is very much inclined 
 to-day to buy advertised articles. They read these catalogues and the 
 big advertisements in the newspapers, and they are induced to buy 
 through them to quite an extent. The small man can not do that, 
 and I know that there is a lot of money sent out of the city of Wash- 
 ington to catalogue houses ; and the goods I have seen, and the prices 
 the parties have paid for them, as shown to me, could have been 
 duplicated right here in Washington. There was no need of sending 
 the money out of the city. 
 
 The Chairman. Why did they? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. They were led to believe by reading the cata- 
 logues that they could- buy cheaper. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, why don't the Washington merchants 
 demonstrate to the purchasers, with whom I infer they have personal 
 contact, as you state in your testimony, that they can buy as cheaply 
 at home instead of going to the mail-order houses ? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. I am surprised that they have not started some 
 method of educating the people to the point that they can, but it 
 seems to me they have not done so. 
 
 The Chairman. Don't you think that would be a good line of 
 operation for the associations you represent from a business stand- 
 point? ... 
 
 Mr. Richardson. I think all associations ought to do that. I 
 think all associations ought to have a committee to encourage home 
 industry and home trade and to keep it from going away. But there 
 seems to be quite a tendency among the people to trade with mail- 
 order houses under the idea that they are cheaper, and it is a pretty 
 hard proposition to convince the public that they can not, I think. I 
 do not think anybody can buy to advantage from a catalogue ; I can 
 not in my own business. I usually go to the large jobbing houses and 
 select myself, and I can select to much better advantage and I be- 
 
750 PARCEL POST. 
 
 lieve the public can to better advantage, coming into my store and 
 seeing what suits them, get better results in what they buy. 
 
 The Chairman. Don't you believe that it is a peculiarity of human 
 nature that the individual would rather buy something he could see 
 and inspect than to buy something not seen ? 
 
 Mr. Eichaedson. I think the tendency is right the other way ; buy- 
 ing through the catalogues. 
 
 The Chairman. I understand you to say that you deduce from that 
 fact, which exists in your mind, that the individual thinks he is get- 
 ting things cheaper abroad than he could get the same articles for at 
 home. Is not the desire to get anything at the lowest possible cost 
 a dominant factor in every purchase? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Oh, yes ; and that is the reason these large houses 
 reap their benefits, upon that point in the human mind that they 
 want something for nothing or as cheap as they can get it, and the 
 people are led, from the method of advertising, to believe that they 
 can do it. I think they are convinced by reading the catalogues that 
 they can buy cheaper away from home than they can from their own 
 merchants. 
 
 The Chairman. Don't you think there is also in the human mind 
 a desire not only to get something cheap, but to get their money's 
 worth, so that quality becomes a factor? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. I don't think quality comes in as much as it used 
 to. I think the people have gone crazy in a way to get something 
 cheap — bargains. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you think that the individual will part with 
 his money willingly because it is a small amount, regardless of what 
 he gets in return? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. There seems to be that tendency to me. I re- 
 member the time when people came into my store and wanted the 
 best they could buy. I notice now, however, that with people who 
 trade with me that they look around and see how cheap they can 
 buy things, and then even go so far as to see if they can buy it 
 cheaper somewhere else. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly go on with your remarks? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Our great objection, as I said before, is that it 
 would destroy the small stores. 
 
 The Chairman. And this objection is based upon your study as 
 representative of your association and as chairman of the legislative 
 committee; is that it? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. I am stating their views, you know ; and I would 
 like to rebut a statement I have heard made to the effect of how nice 
 it would be if the farmer could sit down in his house and order the 
 things he wanted, and one illustration was if his mowing machine 
 broke down he could run up to the house, telephone to the city, and 
 have the part sent out by parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. It would depend on the weight? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Of course; that was not mentioned, whether it 
 was one pound or a thousand, but the fact is that a parcel-post car- 
 rier leaves the city probably before 6 o'clock in the morning, and 
 the farmer would not be able to get his order that day after the 
 carrier leaves that day, and the merchant who lives at home could 
 not get it until the next day, so he would not have that convenience 
 that some are led to believe, and I think that is one question that 
 
PABCEL POST. 751 
 
 ought to be taken into consideration when we are told that this is an 
 advantage. I heard it said how nice it would be if a farmer could 
 sit in his house and order everything that he wanted by phone. 
 
 The Chairman. He would not get much exercise, would he ? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. I take the ground if he stayed at home all the 
 time he would soon be a back number. As I take it, if he stays in 
 the house he would be something like Rip Van Winkle when he got 
 into town. I believe it is an advantage to have every man or person 
 to come into any store and select what he wants, and he will buy at a 
 much better advantage. Possibly they might see something that they 
 did not have in their mind when they came into the store ; and also 
 they might see something that would suit them better at less price. 
 I believe the small towns should be protected, so far as can be. I do 
 not believe we can go to work and enact any special legislation for 
 them ; I do not think anybody is asking Congress to do that, but we 
 do not want to see any further legislation by which they can be 
 deprived of what they already have or put them under further 
 competition. 
 
 The Chairman. What percentage of the population of the small 
 towns, in your opinion, are storekeepers? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. The percentage of the people? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Well, that would be a pretty hard question to 
 answer. Most all villages usually have 1 store, and some 2, some 3, 
 some 4, and running up to 10 stores in places of some importance. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, would you say 1 or 2 or 3 per cent of the 
 population of the rural communities are engaged in merchandise 
 business ? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Well, I hardly would think so, although I could 
 not tell you exact percentages, for I have never figured on that. I 
 never heard that question asked before, but we all know that some 
 of the small villages have one or two small merchants, according 
 to the size of the place where they live, and whenever they have a 
 little church and there is something going on for the benefit of that 
 church the merchants usually contribute quite largely, even if the 
 cause is not just according to his own views ; he generally contributes 
 as a matter of business, and in that way he helps to build up those 
 
 centers. 
 
 The Chairman. You believe all legislation should be based on the 
 desideratum of the greatest good to the greatest number with the 
 least possible injury to the individual, do you not ? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. I do. But at the same time I think that industry 
 must be protected and should be protected. I believe that is why we 
 have a protective tariff, to prevent cheaper goods from coming in 
 from foreign countries. I think the same rule and principle applies 
 to a local store. Our Government is constituted differently from 
 foreign governments, as we have these little local centers which are 
 governments in themselves, in the shape of counties and State gov- 
 ernments acting within themselves, and they must, of course, pro- 
 tpot themselves. 
 
 The Chairman. Is not the opposition of your association based 
 primarily upon the peculiarity of human nature that none of us 
 want a change unless satisfied that that change will directly ben- 
 efit us or indirectly benefit us in the increased general welfare, 
 
752 PARCEL POSX. 
 
 rather than upon any specific proof or demonstration that you could 
 have had that this injury is going to operate? It is rather the 
 timidity incident to human nature that prompts the objection to the 
 passage of any law, for the reasons I have stated. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. They are afraid of an injury if they make a 
 change. I think that is human nature. I think we are all human. 
 
 The Chairman. I hope we are. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. You might say we are selfish, perhaps, in this 
 whole question. I do not blame the mail-order houses for wanting 
 a parcel post, if it will benefit them. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I do not know that they do. I have no 
 knowledge, so far as I am concerned, and I speak for myself only, 
 that the mail-order houses are in favor of a parcel post. 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Well, we are pretty well convinced that they are. 
 That is our supposition, and we are convinced, and I think it would 
 be hard to convince us to the contrary, because they can see the 
 advantages they will derive out of it. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, you don't think that your association is 
 necessarily infallible. Anybody is liable to be mistaken, and your 
 minds are open to conviction, the same as ours? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. Why, sure. I think we all ought to have that 
 broad mind, but my real purpose of appearing is to say to the com- 
 mittee that we are opposed to the extension of the parcel post. 1 
 do not want to go and say the Government can do this or they 
 can not do that, because you have men in the Government's employ 
 who have made this a study for years and can give figures and all 
 those things. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the committee is greatly obliged to you for 
 appearing before us to-day. Is there anything further that you wish 
 to say? 
 
 Mr. Richardson. I do not think I can say anything more. I could 
 
 fo into lots of things which men have told us over and over again, 
 ut it would simply be a repetition, and what I want to do is to have 
 the committee appreciate our situation. 
 The Chairman. Thank you very much. 
 
TESTIMONY OF MR. WILLIAM F. GUDE. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Gude, it will be necessary that you be sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state for the information of the 
 committee your age, residence, and occupation. 
 
 Mr. Gude. William F. Gude ; age, 43 ; residence, 3800 New Hamp- 
 shire Avenue, Washington, D. C.; occupation, florist and floral 
 decorator. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you appear before the committee in any offi- 
 cial capacity as representing any organizations ? 
 
 Mr. Gude. As the accredited representative at the National Capital 
 for the Society of American Florists and Ornamental Horticulturists, 
 an organization chartered by the United States Government, com- 
 posed of some 2,000 members in good standing. 
 
 The Chairman. The members are located all over the United 
 States? 
 
 Mr. Gude. Located all over the United States ; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you in favor of increasing the scope of the 
 present fourth-class mail matter; that is, the weight limit from 4 
 pounds to 11 pounds, and decreasing the postal rate ? 
 
 Mr. Gude. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly give the committee the benefit 
 of your reasons for favoring any such legislation ? 
 
 Mr. Gude. Leaving self out of it, this matter has been thoroughly 
 discussed at the annual convention by the organization which I rep- 
 resent and at three or four separate and distinct meetings. It has 
 been unanimously passed at a full meeting; in each case there were 
 over 100 members present when the resolution was passed at various 
 cities, once at Dayton, Ohio, once at Niagara Falls, and last summer 
 again at Baltimore, Md. Quite a little time has been given to it and 
 a thorough study made of the question. Of course I might add right 
 here that the Society of American Florists and Ornamental Horti- 
 culturists acts as a parent society to some eight or nine other organi- 
 zations, including the Carnation Society, the American Rose Society, 
 the Chrysanthemum Society, the Peony Society, the Sweet Pea So- 
 ciety, and all of the others are affiliated with and represented in the 
 national organization. 
 
 The Chairman. Representing a total membership of how many ? 
 
 Mr. Gude. I should say of at least 10,000. 
 
 The Chairman. Distributed over the country ? 
 
 Mr. Gude. Distributed over the entire country from Maine to 
 California, from Mexico to Canada. 
 
 The Chairman. You made mention of a resolution. Have you a 
 copy of the resolution, and if not, could you state the gist of the 
 resolution for the benefit of the committee? 
 
 Mr. Gude. I have not the resolution for this reason: It is in the 
 hands of the secretary and probably I have been a little lax in not 
 urging him to get it to me before now. The annual report will 
 be out about the first of January containing all of our proceedings 
 
 753 
 
754 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 and the resolution is contained in that report. The gist of the reso- 
 lution as I recall it is this: That we are unanimously in favor of a 
 parcel post on the best terms that we can get it, and that the United 
 States give to its citizens at least as good a parcel post as the United 
 States gives to any foreign nation. 
 
 The Chairman. Which in your viewpoint is 11 pounds at 12 cents 
 a pound? 
 
 Mr. Gude. I understand it so. 
 
 The Chairman. You say this resolution has been passed by all of 
 these correlated societies? 
 
 Mr. Gtjde. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You have a copy of the exact resolution? 
 
 Mr. Gude. I will furnish it to you. 
 
 The Chairman. If you will kindly do so we will be greatly 
 obliged. 
 
 Mr. Gtjde. I will do so. I will send for it at once and probably 
 have it forwarded by mail to-morrow. 1 
 
 The Chairman. You believe that a parcel post will be a direct 
 benefit to you in your particular line of business? 
 
 Mr. Gude. Most undoubtedly so. 
 
 The Chairman. And it is also your opinion that it will be of 
 general benefit and to the general welfare of the country as a whole? 
 
 Mr. Gude. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. That an increased transportation facility must be 
 beneficial to every community enjoying it? 
 
 Mr. Gude. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And if the Nation as a whole enjoys it, all must 
 be benefited by that to the extent of participation in the general 
 welfare ? 
 
 Mr. Gude. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. In your study of the subject that you yourself 
 have made, or the members of the organization, or the correlated 
 organizations have made, they come to the conclusion that no par- 
 ticular class or interests would be injured by the enlargement of the 
 scope of the present fourth-class mail matter ? 
 
 Mr. Gude. That, to the best of my knowledge and belief has not 
 been taken up outside of our own interests. 
 
 The Chairman. Your investigation has been confined entirely to 
 the lines of business that your associations represent? 
 
 Mr. Gude. Yes. That association reaches every nook and corner 
 of the United States, because it takes in the wholesale and retail seed 
 houses. Of course, it takes in the thousands of florists' establish- 
 ments, and while it is not generally known, it is a matter of fact that 
 the floral business has grown to such an extent within the last 20 
 years, that a great deal of business is now done through the United 
 States mails in shipping flowers. 
 
 The Chairman. Under the present system? 
 
 Mr. Gude. Under the present system. But of course it is neces- 
 sarily expensive, because we use largely the special delivery on perish- 
 able goods, so as to get the very best service, which our patrons are 
 willing to pay for in that particular instance. But for seeds, and 
 things that would not have to go so quickly of course we want the 
 fourth-class postage. 
 
 1 Not yet received. 
 
PABCEL POST. 755 
 
 The Chairman. If legislation were enacted enlarging the scope of 
 our fourth-class mail activity and it resulted in an injury to the 
 country merchant, would your trade be affected ; would it curtail the 
 number of your customers in any way, in your opinion? 
 
 Mr. Gude. I do not think so. Right there let me say that a 
 number of our members are country merchants because they are pro- 
 ducers in the small country towns, usually at railroad stations, how- 
 ever. To my personal knowledge, right now, there is an industry oj\ 
 the Hudson River where I should say 75 per cent of all the violets 
 used east of the Eocky Mountains are grown to-day } and the trouble 
 they are experiencing all the time is to get those violets through in 
 prompt time, which they can do much better by mail than by the 
 express service. 
 
 The Chairman. Is the principal market of that particular site on 
 the Hudson River, N. Y. ? 
 
 Mr. Gude. Well, the principal market I should say, yes; but a 
 very large output goes to Chicago and St. Louis, Buffalo, New York, 
 and Detroit. 
 
 The Chairman. They are shipped to the distributors in those 
 points ? 
 
 Mr. Gude. They are shipped to wholesale men, or the retailer 
 direct. 
 
 The Chairman. Those shipments, where shipped to the main dis- 
 tributors go, in the main, by express, do they not ? 
 
 Mr. Gude. Largely so; yes, sir. In Washington at the National 
 Capital, my own firm gets them through the United States mail, 
 most of the time. 
 
 The Chairman. In 4-pound packages or less? 
 
 Mr. Gude. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You do that because it is cheap or because you get 
 a more efficient delivery? 
 
 Mr. Gude. More efficient service. 
 
 The Chairman. It is more expensive, as a matter of fact, isn't it? 
 
 Mr. Gude. Yes, sir; slightly so. Well, it is quite a bit more ex- 
 pensive, under the present arrangement, with a four pound pack- 
 age, because the package itself with the packing in it weighs almost 
 as much as the contents. 
 
 The Chairman. So you are really paying on the goods received 
 about 32 cents per pound instead of 16 ? 
 
 Mr. Gude. That is the idea. 
 
 The Chairman. In addition, you have to put on a special-delivery 
 
 stamp ? 
 
 Mr. Gude. In addition we have to put on a special-delivery stamp ; 
 yes, sir; on each package which, of course, makes it more expensive, 
 and when you get ten or twenty thousand in a lot and can only put 
 500 in a package, you can readily see it runs into a great deal of 
 money when this goes on daily. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any further opinions or is there any 
 other information you care to submit, Mr. Gude? 
 
 Mr. Gude. That states it about as good as I could if I talked 
 for two hours. The association which I represent stands for the 
 greatest good to the greatest number, and to give to the citizens of the 
 United States at least as good a parcel post as it gives to its most 
 favored nations. 
 
TESTIMONY OF MISS FLORENCE ETHERIDGE. 
 
 The Chairman. Miss Etheridge, it is necessary that you be sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state for the information of the 
 committee your age, residence, and occupation. 
 
 Miss Etheridge. Florence Etheridge ; age, 33 ; residence, 3011 Cam- 
 bridge Street, Washington, D. C. 
 
 The Chairman. Your occupation? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. Clerk for the Government. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you connected with any associations? If so, 
 have you any official office in any association ? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. I am the vice president of the Stanton Suffrage 
 Club, of Washington ; the chairman of the legislative committee of 
 the Federation of Equal Suffrage Clubs of Washington, D. C. ; and 
 recording secretary of that organization. 
 
 The Chairman. You are here to represent the organization on the 
 subject of the enlargement of the present parcel post represented by 
 fourth-class mail matter? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And the views you give the committee will express, 
 as you believe, the views of your association generally ? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state whether you are in favor 
 of or opposed to the enlargement of our fourth-class mail matter 
 activities ? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. I am both personally and officially in favor of 
 such enlargement, my official authorization being a resolution passed 
 at the last meeting of the Stanton Suffrage Club to the effect that the 
 bill to institute a parcel post should be indorsed. 
 
 The Chairman. How large an organization is the Stanton Suffrage 
 Club and the District of Columbia Federation of Suffrage Clubs ? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. The Stanton Suffrage Club is an organization of 
 about 50 persons. The District of Columbia federation, I should 
 say, has probably 250. It is composed of four separate suffrage 
 organizations. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you in the national organization — a part of it? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. How large is the national organization in mem- 
 bership ? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. I can not give you the exact figures on that point; 
 but, of course, I know there are a great many thousands more in the 
 national organization. 
 
 The Chairman. Distributed over the United States ? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. Yes, sir ; in both country and city districts. 
 
 The Chairman. Is every State represented by an organization? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. Yes. sir; there is no State without one. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know whether the local organizations con- 
 stituting the national association are all of the same view as your 
 756 
 
PARCEL POST. 757 
 
 District of Columbia organization here, relative to this particular 
 subject? 
 
 Miss Etheeidge. I think the campaign of education on that sub- 
 ject has not reached all the States. I think no organization has taken 
 the position of being opposed to it. 
 
 The Chairman. So far as you are aware ? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. So far as I am aware. 
 
 The Chairman. But you know that your own organization here 
 has taken an affirmative action? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. Yes, sir; official affirmative action. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you a copy of the resolution that was adopted 
 by your organization here ? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. No, sir; but the secretary of the Stanton Club 
 has one, which I will be very glad to send you. 
 
 (The resolution referred to and letter of transmittal follow:) 
 
 Stanton Suffrage Clot, 2127 R Street, 
 
 January 9, 1912. 
 Hon. Jonathan Bourne, Jr., 
 
 United States Senate. 
 Dear Sir: In harmony with the request made of Miss Florence Etheridge, 
 vice president of the Stanton Suffrage Club, to send to the Committee on Post 
 Offices and Post Roads a copy of the resolution passed at the December meeting 
 of the club in regard to the parcel-post bill now pending before Congress, I 
 take pleasure in complying with the request and send the copy of the resolution 
 herewith. 
 
 Respectfully, Emily Christian Carr, 
 
 Secretary Stanton Suffrage Club. 
 
 Whereas the carrying of small packages of merchandise through the mails is 
 practically prohibited by the present high rate of postage and low limit of 
 weight, while at the same time the charges made by the express companies 
 are excessive ; and 
 Whereas nearly all progressive nations have provided for carrying packages of 
 merchandise through the mails at a cost far below that charged in this 
 country : Therefore be it 
 
 Resolved, That the Stanton Suffrage Club indorses the two bills now pending 
 before Congress, namely, S. 3558 and H. R. 14, which provide for a 1-cent 2-ounce 
 rate on parcels up to 11 pounds ; a local rural service of 1 pound, 1 cent ; 11 
 pounds, 5 cents ; 25 pounds, 10 cents ; and a mail insurance. 
 
 Anna Kelton Wiley, 
 President Stanton Suffrage Club. 
 
 Emily Christian Carr, 
 Secretary Stanton Suffrage Club. 
 
 The Chairman. If you will kindly do so. Will you state, kindly, 
 for the information of the committee, the gist of the resolution ? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. The gist of the resolution was that the bills be 
 highly commended and indorsed on the ground that the suffrage 
 organizations represented neither interests of the mail-order houses 
 nor exclusively the local interests, but probably more than some 
 organizations the farmer, and especially, perhaps, the farmer's wife. 
 
 The Chairman. Your conclusions being based upon such investi- 
 gation as has been made led you to believe that the general welfare 
 of the country would be increased and improved by the adoption of 
 such legislation. Is that your attitude ? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. Yes, sir. We feel that the farmer and his wife 
 are out off. in a sense, from securing certain needs that could be 
 
758 PARCEL POST. 
 
 secured if it could be done from large centers. The farmer goes to 
 town a long distance to buy goods which, perhaps, after all are 
 inferior to what he would get if he could get them from the large 
 houses without j>aying the enormous sum which he is now required 
 to pay. I have personally heard farmers make that statement. We 
 feel that the fact that the farmer would rather trade in his own 
 town if he could would be to his advantage. 
 
 And we believe in the fact that the farmer would rather trade in 
 his own home town if he could, and he would, as you say, prefer to 
 buy those things which he can see and touch, which would counter- 
 balance to a large extent the fact that he would trade more with the 
 large mail-order houses if he could secure their goods at a lower 
 rate than he is now forced to pay. That is to say, it would spur 
 the local storekeeper on to better efforts, and perhaps in the end be 
 best for all parties. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee has been informed by a number of 
 witnesses, given existing conditions, a large amount of country trade 
 goes to the departmental or mail-order houses in preference to the 
 local merchants. Have you any knowledge as to whether that con- 
 dition exists ; and if so, will you kindly give the committee your ideas 
 as to the cause of such a transfer of trade from home to the distance? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. I think that the farmer very frequently buys his 
 goods in the local markets simply because he is forced to do so by 
 the fact that the prices which he would pay in ordering from a 
 large concern are practically prohibitive. The mail prices and the 
 express prices, as we know, are also very high, and I think very fre- 
 quently he buys inferior articles on that account. The farmer very 
 often complains that he has to take what he can get. 
 
 The Chairman. From whom ? His home merchant, you mean ? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. Yes. He sends for catalogues from the larger 
 firms and then decides that he can not afford to pay the mailing or 
 express charges in order to receive them. 
 
 The Chairman. Would it be the desire of your organization as 
 you sense it, to transfer the trade of the farmer and the agricultural 
 sections of our country from the home merchant to the city? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. No, sir; that is not our idea, nor do we think it 
 would be the ultimate result. We think that the result would be 
 possibly the farmer might transfer some of his trade temporarily, but 
 if the local merchant would make an effort to meet the requirements 
 of the situation, to make fair competition with the larger concerns, 
 which he could always do, they being at a greater distance, then the 
 farmer would probably return to his old allegiance, to the local store- 
 keeper, and the result would be satisfactory to all concerned. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you do not think that the catalogue would 
 keep that trade permanently with the mail-order houses, and that 
 curiosity would control the individual in the transfer of his business 
 from the home merchant to the mail-order house ? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. Yes, sir ; I think it would be a fair competition. 
 
 The Chairman. Wouldn't you rather, in purchasing something, see 
 it and handle it and get some idea in your own mind as to whether 
 you were getting value received than to buy it at a distance without 
 seeing it? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. I certainly should, unless I felt the goods I 
 wanted to purchase at the distance were very much superior in 
 quality. 
 
PARCEL POST. 759 
 
 The Chairman. Would it be price or quality that would deter- 
 mine your action in making a purchase, or both ? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. Both. 
 
 The Chairman. Which would have the larger weight in your 
 mind, the price or the quality ? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. The quality. 
 
 The Chairman. Would the period in which you were able to 
 secure your purchase have any weight in making your decision ? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. That would depend, of course," on circumstances. 
 If I were in the farmer's position and wanted to buy heavy ma- 
 chinery or something which was not immediately required the amount 
 of time would have very little weight. Of course in matters of buy- 
 ing feed or things of that sort time Avould necessarily be an element. 
 
 The Chairman. How in the matter of dress? If you could get 
 something in 24 hours from your home merchant or had to wait 2 
 weeks or 10 days on the maii-order house, would the fact that you 
 could get the goods in the shorter period, everything else equal, in- 
 fluence your decision? • 
 
 Miss Etheridge. Yes, sir; that would have a consideration. I 
 should prefer to get it in my home town. 
 
 The Chairman. Isn't it a peculiarity of human nature that, given 
 a desire, there is also a strong motive for the earliest possible gratifi- 
 cation of that desire? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. How much of a study has your organization made 
 of the subject matter? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. At our last meeting we gave it considerable at- 
 tention in the way of debate; arguments on both sides were urged 
 as we talked the matter over and considered it very carefully. One 
 resolution was lost and a more specific resolution was adopted. We 
 have read the papers and the various bills and kept ourselves in- 
 formed as well as possible on the subject. 
 
 The Chairman. Was there any opposition in your debate ? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. No, sir; the opposition was only to the more 
 specific resolutions, the resolution which went into detail and recom- 
 mended methods, rather than the general proposition. 
 
 The Chairman. Did you take a vote at the conclusion of the 
 debate ? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And the evidence was unanimously in favor of 
 the enlargement of the present parcel post activity ? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. Unanimous. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any further information or are there any 
 other views that you care to state ? 
 
 Miss Etheridge. No, sir; I think I have stated the opinion of 
 myself and my organization. 
 
 The Chairman. We thank you very much indeed. 
 
TESTIMONY OF MRS. JENNIE I. MUNROE. 
 
 The Chairman. Mrs Munroe, it will be necessary that you be 
 sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state for the information of the 
 committee your age, residence, and occupation, Mrs. Munroe? 
 
 Mrs. Munroe. I am 62 years old, sir; I am a clerk in the General 
 Land Office of the Interior Department, where I have been for nearly 
 30 years. 
 
 The Chairman. Here in Washington? 
 
 Mrs. Munroe. Yes, sir. I am at present the president of the 
 Women's Single Tax Club of this city, and I would like to represent 
 that club in my testimony. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, the views that you will express to the com- 
 mittee and the information you impart will be as an official repre- 
 sentative of this club? 
 
 Mrs. Munroe. Well, I have had no authority to appear as a repre- 
 sentative of that club, but I think I can voice the sentiment of the 
 club. I would not like to appear as representing the club with their 
 authority, because we have not discussed it. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, we will understand that you do not appear 
 officially, but in the remarks that you make, in your opinion, you will 
 voice the sentiment of the club. Are you in favor of enlarging the 
 present scope of our parcel-post system as represented by the fourth- 
 class mail matter now? 
 
 Mrs. Munroe. I am, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you give the committee the benefit of your 
 reasons for appearing for the institution of such an enlargement? 
 
 Mrs. Munroe. Well, my sympathies are all with the common people 
 of this country, and it seems to me that it is to their advantage. 
 
 The Chairman. What causes you to come to such a conclusion; 
 that it would be to their advantage? 
 
 Mrs. Munroe. They could receive mail matter at less expense than 
 at present, and, furthermore, in larger quantities than they do now. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean in larger packages, larger weights? 
 
 Mrs. Munroe. In larger weights ; and I particularly speak of the 
 working people of the country ; not of the farmers ; but of the men 
 who run farms and live on the farms and live the farm life. They 
 have very small means, and anything that tends to enable them to 
 obtain the things they need at less expense than at present is cer- 
 tainly to their advantage, in my opinion. 
 
 The Chairman. How do you infer that they will get it at less 
 expense than at the present? 
 
 Mrs. Munroe. They could get it in greater bulk, at least. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you much knowledge or the operation of 
 the mail-order houses and acquaintance with individuals who do 
 their buying through the mail-order houses ? 
 760 
 
PARCEL POST. 761 
 
 Mrs. Muneoe. No; not very much. 
 
 The Chairman. And, among your acquaintances, very little of 
 that trade exists ? 
 
 Mrs. Mtjnroe. No. In a colony in which I am quite interested in 
 Nucla, Colo., which is in the southwestern part of the State, a great 
 many of the people do buy their things through the mail-order 
 houses ; I know that. 
 
 The Chairman. Do they do it separately, individually, or act col- 
 lectively and make up an order? 
 
 Mrs. Mtjnroe. In both ways. Both separately and collectively; 
 and they have found it to great advantage. 
 
 1'he Chairman. Do they believe or know that they could get their 
 goods cheaper that way than by patronizing their home merchants? 
 
 Mrs. Mtjnroe. Well, there are^ many things in that particular 
 colony which they can not get from their home merchants. 
 
 The Chairman. Because the home merchant does not carry them 
 in stock? 
 
 Mrs. Mtjnroe. Because the home merchant does not carry them in 
 his home stock. And in that particular colony I do not think that 
 their orders in any way would interfere or be detrimental to the 
 home merchants. 
 
 The Chairman. The mail-order business of that colony is confined 
 entirely to those articles not carried by the home merchant? 
 
 Mrs. Mtjnroe. I would not say that. 
 
 The Chairman. But principally? 
 
 Mrs. Mtjkroe. Principally; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Why, in your opinion, does not the home mer- 
 chant carry these goods if a demand exists for them in that com- 
 munity ? 
 
 Mrs. Mtjnroe. Well, I can not tell why they can not do it. 
 
 The Chairman. You simply know that they do not? 
 
 Mrs. Mtjnroe. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any views that you care to present to 
 the committee relative to the subject matter at issue? 
 
 Mrs. Mtjnroe. Well, I would like to speak of one thing personally 
 in regard to this very little colony. For instance, right now they 
 have no seed for planting trees. They have planned a beautiful 
 boulevard through this park — they call them parks in Colorado — 
 and I am here in the department working for a good salary, and I 
 would be very much pleased to purchase the seed to send them, for 
 instance, walnut, hickory nut, etc. However, I find it would be very 
 expensive to send the seed through the mail itself, because it costs 
 almost as much to send them as it does to buy the seed. Then I could 
 only send 4 pounds at a time. 
 
 The Chairman. But you could divide your seed into a number of 
 4-pound packages ? 
 
 Mrs. Muneoe. I know ; but that is very troublesome, and puts me 
 to extra trouble and I see no good reason for that. The Government 
 is supposed to be for the benefit and help of all of its people. In 
 every progressive civilized country they have this method, and I see 
 no reason why the United States should be behind other countries 
 in this respect. 
 
 The Chairman. In this particular feature? 
 
 Mrs. Mtjnroe. In this particular feature. 
 21845— vol 3—12 1 2 
 
762 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. According to your viewpoint? 
 
 Mrs. Mttnroe. According to my viewpoint. The only objection 
 1 have heard that appeals to me at all has been a suggestion that it 
 might injure the small merchants. Even though I believed it would 
 injure the small merchants, still I would be for this bill because I 
 have been taught that everything here is for the benefit of the major- 
 ity, for the benefit of the greater number, rather than the lesser 
 number, and I think that persons who can go into a mercantile busi- 
 ness or any other business can take' care of themselves better than 
 the individuals who are scattered all through the country and need 
 the benefit of the post office, which comes so close to our people. 
 
 The Chaikman. You believe that it would injure the small mer- 
 chant ? 
 
 Mrs. Munroe. I do not believe that it would, but even if I did 
 believe so, I would still advocate the parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. On the theory that the small merchant represented 
 but a small proportional part of our citizenship or population? 
 
 Mrs. Munroe. That is it exactly, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged, Mrs. Munroe. 
 
TESTIMONY OF MRS. ANNA KELTON WILEY. 
 
 The Chairman. Mrs. Wiley, it will be necessary that you be sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state for the information of the 
 committee your age, residence and occupation, Mrs. Wiley ? 
 
 Mrs. Wiley. Anna Kelton Wiley ; age, 34 ; housekeeper, I suppose, 
 is my occupation. 
 
 The Chairman. Your residence? 
 
 Mrs. Wiley. No. 1848 Biltmore Street, Washington, D. C. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you connected with any association? 
 
 Mrs. Wiley. I am president of the Stanton Suffrage Club, of which 
 Miss Etheridge is vice president. 
 
 The Chairman. Now state for the information of the committee 
 whether you are in favor or opposed to any enlargement of our pres- 
 ent parcel post as represented under the fourth-class mail matter ? 
 
 Mrs. Wiley. I am in favor of it. I would like to add this in re- 
 gard to the rural post if this measure could be carried, from our ex- 
 perience in Virginia, I think it would be extremely valuable. We live 
 3 miles from the nearest store; the rural carrier comes to our gate 
 every day and I could buy a loaf of bread under those conditions, 
 where now we are obliged to drive 6 miles. The rural carrier comes 
 in a buggy with comparatively small mail matter, because the dis- 
 trict is not densely populated, and it would be a great assistance to 
 the farmers' wives — I speak as one — to have groceries delivered from 
 the store which is immediately next to the post office. 
 
 The Chairman. The rural carrier that serves this particular lo- 
 cality that you speak of, does he carry all the weight in mail and 
 packages that his vehicle will permit of, in your opinion, or have you 
 any knowledge on that? 
 
 Mrs. Wiley. I have seen him come in a small wagon, but I have 
 never seen him with a large supply of mail matter, and I attribute 
 that to the sparseness of the locality. The capacity of his wagon 
 would bring more than he now carries. I know that in England 
 20-pound agricultural parcels can go by post within a radius of 3 
 miles for 8 cents a pound. It would seem to me if the same provision 
 could be had in this country it would be of great benefit to the 
 farmers. . 
 
 The Chairman. From the experience you have had m this locality, 
 is much of the trade of that locality confined to the country mer- 
 chant or with the mail-order houses? 
 
 Mrs. Wiley. I have only lived there one season and am not com- 
 petent to speak on that. 
 
 The Chairman. Within a zone radius of 6 miles, how many peoma 
 are there in that locality? 
 
 Mrs. Wiley. I can not answer. I am not informed on that. My 
 nearest neighbor is a mile away, not counting a colored settlement 
 composed of poor persons, of course. 
 
 763 
 
764 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. You concur in all that Miss Etheridge presented ? 
 
 Mrs. Wiley. Yes; I indorse all she said. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If there was a rate on this rural route of, say, 
 4 or 5 cents a pound, you would get a good deal of your merchandise 
 that you necessarily need to-day over the route? 
 
 Mrs. Wiley. I think we could, sir. We raised no potatoes on our 
 farm this year, and we had to go into town to get them. We had to 
 get those delivered. Bread is a daily need, and all such things could 
 be delivered, I think, with great convenience. 
 
 The Chairman. The standard groceries — you go to town for them, 
 do you ? 
 
 Mrs. Wiley. We do, ourselves; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you use the telephone or a postal card in or- 
 dering ? 
 
 Mrs. Wiley. I should say both, in accordance with what the neces- 
 sity may require. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you think that a majority of the farmers 
 living on this route would utilize it in that way if they had the 
 opportunity ? 
 
 Mrs. Wiley. I think if they were educated to it, they would. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You think it would be a growing thing and 
 would develop business? 
 
 Mrs. Wiley. Yes ; because the farmers are so occupied they haven't 
 the time to go to town. Of course, Dr. Wiley and I had time to 
 drive in, but the farmer, as a rule, is a busy man, and he can not 
 always get into town, and it is hard for him and his wife, for she 
 has a hard enough time, anyway. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You think it would be of advantage not only 
 to the farmer, but to the merchant, that the merchant would sell the 
 things he otherwise would not sell, and the farmer could buy things 
 he would otherwise have to deny himself of? 
 
 Mrs. Wiley. That is my opinion. 
 
 The Chairman. We are much obliged to you. 
 
TESTIMONY OF MISS HAKRIETTE J. HIFTON. 
 
 The Chairman. Miss Hifton, it will be necessary that you be 
 sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state for the information of the 
 committee your age, residence, and occupation? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Thirty-five; 1815 Riggs Place; librarian. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you connected with any national or local 
 association ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Many of them. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly give the committee the informa- 
 tion as to what associations you are connected with and what official 
 capacity, if any, you occupy in them? 
 
 Miss Hifton. I am a member of many library associations; I am 
 a member of the American Library Association; of the New York 
 Library Club; of the District of Columbia Library Association. I 
 am also a member of the District of Columbia Women's Suffrage 
 Association. I am auditor for the State Equal Suffrage Association 
 of the District of Columbia ; I was formerly president of that asso- 
 ciation. I am also a member of the Consumers' League, and I 
 would say a word for the working woman on that ground and for the 
 Womans' Trade Union League. 
 
 The Chairman. In your testimony before the committee will you 
 represent the views of the various organizations that you have 
 designated, or will your opinions be those of your own? Will you 
 kindly designate where you state your own views and specify the 
 views of the organizations as you give them. Are you in favor of 
 enlarging the present scope of our parcel-post system as represented 
 now under the fourth-class mail matter? 
 
 Miss Hifton. I am very much in favor of enlarging the scope of 
 the United States post office. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly give the committee the benefit 
 of your reasons for favoring it? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Well, in the first place, I represent the women of this 
 country. I am a member of the American Women's Suffrage Asso- 
 ciation, and while it has not indorsed a general resolution for a par- 
 cel post, the association is very much in favor of enlarging the serv- 
 ice of the post office. The women of the country are very much 
 concerned in getting articles for their homes cheaper than they can 
 get them now, and they believe the parcel post will help them in 
 that direction. The high cost of living, about which we are hear- 
 ing so much these days, is very much the concern of the house- 
 keepers and the housewives and even of the house women. The 
 housewives of the country have the family budget to expend, and I 
 know that the men often say, " Last year I gave you $10 more a 
 week " or " I gave you $20 a week last year, and I do not see why 
 $20 a week would not last this year." As a matter of fact, many of 
 
 765 
 
766 PARCEL POST. 
 
 them, especially among the workingmen, say they will not give 
 them more money to run the house on; that that much money ran 
 the house last year. They think they are acting equitably, and they 
 do not realize that cotton has gone up in price, as well as the cost 
 of a child's apron, the cost of coffee, and all the materials, even 
 spool cotton we used to buy cheaper a few years ago. All those 
 little things count up. The cost of living could be reduced, we be- 
 lieve, by reducing the cost of bringing the articles to the family. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, has this increase in price that you speak of, 
 in your opinion, been due to an increase in cost of transportation 
 or to an increase in the cost at the point of initiation — the factory 
 or the jobber or the distributor, the merchant ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. There has been an increase in the cost of distribution. 
 All the middlemen have to make more money in order to run their 
 business, and it has been shown quite conclusively that the farmer 
 does not get the increase in the cost. I think Mrs. Wiley must have 
 touched on that point, for I know Dr. Wiley has a very strong opin- 
 ion on that point. He says that the farmers do not get the increased 
 return. You also know that the women who make these things do 
 not get the increase, but all the middlemen, all along the line; their 
 expenses are higher and they have to make more, and therefore the 
 cost of distribution is greater. Where there were two middlemen 
 before there are four now 
 
 The Chairman. And you think that there is a great duplication 
 of effort among the middlemen. Is that it ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Duplication of effort among the middlemen, and 
 the parcel post would help to bring things directly from the producer 
 to the consumer, as they do in France now. They have in France 
 a great cut-flower industry, and it was recognized that in the south 
 of France that the cut flowers could grow out of doors without extra 
 expense of cold frames and hothouses and the apparatus necessary 
 to cultivate flowers under artificial circumstances, and a very en- 
 thusiastic florist, a man who was a writer, said that if flowers could 
 be grown in the south of France and distributed cheaply to the cen- 
 ters where flowers were needed, the cost to the consumer would be 
 less, and it has proven to be so. However, that could not have been 
 so if the cost of transportation had been very large. 
 
 In France they charge 16 cents to carry 11 pounds by parcel post. 
 Now, that additional cost of 16 cents for 11 pounds to transport 
 violets or roses or whatever they might transport, is not very great; 
 as a matter of fact, it is as if you went to the garden to get them, 
 for within 12 or 18 hours they can send them from the southern part 
 of France to Paris, where the roses find a market. Now, if they were 
 not there the same day they would, of course, possibly perish the 
 next day. We can not get much better service than that from our 
 own florists right here in Washington, who have their own hot- 
 houses distributed around the city. In Germany the students in the 
 schools do not often have their laundry done in the cities where they 
 study, but ship it home by parcel post, for it costs them very little. 
 The rate there is only 12 cents for 11 pounds, and they have the same 
 rate in Austria. Think Avhat that would amount to here with all of 
 our girls and boys in school. Think what it would mean for us, 
 who are on vacations, when we have to pay 20 cents to have a shirt- 
 waist done up in a steam laundry, and anybody knows that the col- 
 
PAHCEL POST. 767 
 
 ored women, who do good work here, who do not have the great ex- 
 pense of running a steam laundry, will do up a shirtwaist for 10 cents 
 or^ sometimes a little less if in bulk, probably 8 or 9 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. Why, with that knowledge, does the girl pay 20 
 cents to the steam laundry when she can get the work done for "half 
 the cost, or less, by the colored woman ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. But that is when she is away from home. 
 
 The Chairman. She patronizes when at home the colored woman? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes ; patronizes the colored woman, the home people. 
 
 The Chairman. A colored woman instead of the steam laundry, 
 because she gets it for just half or less than half? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And when she is on her vacation, this is a hard- 
 ship to her ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes. Another illustration : If she has a white dress, 
 as I know the women in Washington have to have, she would have to 
 pay a dollar to have that dress done up. Now, it would be much 
 cheaper to send it back here to have it done up by our own people. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, this distinction in price that you give on the 
 special laundry work, do you mean that party living in Washington 
 could get a colored woman to do the work for the prices you have 
 stated, or do you necessitate that the colored woman is already in 
 your employ at the time? 
 
 Miss Hifton. No; not in my employ. She is a woman who lives 
 at home, does the work at home for many people and not a private 
 servant at all. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that condition peculiar to Washington, or does 
 it extend generally, so far as you know, over the country ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. That is true all over the country so far as I know. 
 
 The Chairman. Then could not you, on your vacation, avail your- 
 self of that condition existing at the point where you are taking your 
 vacation, providing you were taking your vacation in the city? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Because it is not always a convenience when I am 
 on my vacation to go hunting up a washwoman. I heard a question 
 asked about the rural parcel post. We believe that will be a great 
 thing for the women, particularly so for the women. Hard-headed 
 business men want all sorts of things and want good things, many of 
 them, but the women have to be considered, and once when I was 
 going to make an address before some organization in Washington, 
 some one wrote me from New York and said, " Do not forget to im- 
 press on them that women are people." 
 
 The Chairman. This audience was in New York? 
 
 Miss Hifton. This audience was in Washington, but a friend of 
 mine in New York gave me that advice. 
 
 The Chairman. I know you made the impression all right. 
 
 Miss Hifton. The rural parcel post will really affect women, I 
 believe, far more than it will affect men. They say the place of the 
 woman is at home, and we agree with that statement, but we are 
 sorry that more of them can not stay home. Now, there are 6,000,000 
 women in the United States who can not be in their homes, as the 
 economic conditions make it necessary for them to be out of the 
 house ; but for those who are at home the rural parcel post will be a 
 great boon, especially when it rains and sometimes in fair weather 
 when too far away from the local stores to buy things. If we had 
 
768 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 the rural parcel post, the post box is in front of the door and the 
 postmaster comes along with a wagon, drops a letter in a box, and he 
 might just as well drop a parcel in there as well as the letters. 
 
 The Chairman. It would depend on the size of the box. 
 
 Miss Hifton. Exactly. But some parcels are small, and according 
 to the present regulations, I understand that the rural carrier is pro- 
 hibited from carrying parcels. There is a penalty of dismissal, I 
 think, for carrying a parcel. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you got the authority for that statement? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Mr. Cowles, I believe, will have it. I can find it. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly furnish the committee with the 
 authentic statement upon which you base this statement you have 
 just made? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes. Now, we say if the rural carrier was able to 
 take up a postal card from that box it would be a great help to the 
 woman who can not go to town because she may have some children 
 at home or some pressing work which makes it necessary for her 
 to stay home, or she may have to pack up some fruit in order that 
 it would not spoil that way, or she hasn't the time to go 2 or 3 miles 
 for small things she wants from the store. The rural carrier is 
 coming from the store to her house, but he can not bring these parcels 
 there, because it is above a certain weight, or the woman is not able 
 to pay 16 cents a pound for merchandise. For these two reasons, 
 either because the bundle is too large or it costs 16 cents a pound, 
 which she can not afford to pay, she can not have various articles 
 brought to her. As I say, in Germany the postmaster would carry 
 an 11-pound parcel for 12 cents and smaller parcels cheaper in pro- 
 portion. Under that system she could drop a card in the box and 
 the carrier would take it up on his trip down, leave the card in the 
 post office — the people in the town collect their mail from the post 
 office — and the merchant would fill the order by leaving the articles 
 at the post office. Now, in that case, the postmaster comes along 
 with his wagon — and he could not do without his wagon, because he 
 has to go those long distances — and instead of having an empty 
 wagon he could take up these small parcels and deliver them right 
 at the door of the farmer, and in that way he would be of real 
 service to the people; and the farmers' wives would be saved a long 
 journey to town and the uncertainty of the question as to whether 
 some neighbor was coming along that road that day and going into 
 town, and likewise save her asking a favor of that neighbor making 
 a purchase for her. She would likewise get her parcels at minimum 
 cost. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, at the minimum cost established? 
 
 Miss Hifton. At the minimum cost established; yes. This bill, 
 as I understand it, does not give such very generous consideration. 
 The rural parcel post does provide for a cheap rate, but not the gen- 
 eral parcel post, and we are too modest to ask for such good condi- 
 tions as they have abroad. They have in Germany a rate of 12 cents 
 on 11 pounds; in Austria, 12 cents; France, 16 cents; Great Britain, 
 24 cents; in the British Empire, 72 cents, and we now pay in this 
 country $1.76 for carrying an 11-pound parcel. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, split up into 4-pound packages ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes. This bill provides that one can send an 11- 
 pound parcel for 88 cents. We are so modest we do not ask the com- 
 
PABCEL POST. 769 
 
 mittee to give any better than the British Empire, which charges 72 
 cents, but we ask you to please carry that bundle for us for 88 cents ; 
 in that way, we will give you 16 cents extra. 
 
 The Chairman. Don't you think that the committee has to take 
 into consideration the difference in conditions existing in Great 
 Britain and in the United States in the way of territory, larger dis- 
 tances, as well as the concentration of population relative to territory, 
 and so forth ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. You realize we have to take those things into 
 consideration from a practical viewpoint? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes; but you already took a practical viewpoint 
 when you passed the laws whereby you could send a letter from San 
 Francisco for 2 cents, and I pay 2 cents from here to Georgetown. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you figure that first-class mail and the dis- 
 tribution of merchandise are on the same plane? Don't you see a 
 distinction between the two from an educational standpoint? 
 
 Miss Hifton. From an educational standpoint? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; intercommunication between people. 
 
 Miss Hifton. Well, I know you do not always consider the educa- 
 tional standpoint, because you do not reduce the price so much on 
 books. 
 
 The Chairman. There is a pretty small price on newspapers and 
 magazines under the second-class mail. 
 
 Miss Hifton. On books we pay eight cents a pound, and I know 
 the library associations have been trying for a long time to have a 
 bill passed providing for a reduced book post. 
 
 The Chairman. Desiring what rate? 
 
 Miss Hifton. They were desiring four cents a pound. Good 
 books should be carried as cheap as magazines, but they do not do 
 that now. Certainly a good book ought to get as cheap a rate as a 
 newspaper, but it does not. With a reduced book rate, the libraries 
 of the various parts of the country would be able to send their books 
 to the rural districts at a lower rate than they do now. They now 
 have in some of the Western States wagons going around with women 
 in charge, traveling wagons, fitted up like pie wagons with shelves 
 on the side, and they distribute around all the farmers in a sparsely 
 settled district books for the farmer to read. Now, if the post office 
 would undertake to carry educational matter, those people would 
 get their books more frequently and more cheaply. The communities 
 would not be taxed so heavily. 
 
 The Chairman. How do you mean the communities would not be 
 caxed so heavily You mean from the dollar standpoint? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Even from the dollar standpoint, because they have 
 to pay taxes, and they have to pay now for the carrying around of 
 a whole library, whereas they do not need to have more than two or 
 three books at a time. 
 
 The Chairman. You think the demand of any community would 
 be restricted to two or three books a day ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. They would make out their orders the same as they 
 do in a public library now, and then the library would distribute 
 the books in accordance with a list. Now they can not do that be- 
 cause the rate is too high. I used to be in the Mercantile Library in 
 New York, and we had quite a great deal of postal business in the 
 
770 PARCEL POST. 
 
 library — it was a subscription library — and they had very good 
 readers and an excellent collection of books and some of the people 
 used to drop a slip in a book and say "Send me by return such and 
 such a book." Now, if the post office opened that and found that 
 slip, they would charge us at the rate of first-class postage. 
 
 The Chairman. Because of the written matter? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes. But in Germany if you want to send laundry 
 or a gift with a remembrance of some kind in it you can do so and it 
 does not matter much to the post office or the express company 
 whether there is a note inside or not. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, you have to have regulations in regard to 
 your transportation of bundles and mail.. 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes; but there they simply consider the bundle and 
 it does not make any difference whether it contains fresh peanuts or 
 roasted peanuts or whether laundry or books or shoes. Many of us 
 know particularly of cases where people have things that have been 
 discarded which are too good to throw away and they do not want to 
 give them to people who are not particularly interested, but they 
 know of a poor family out in the country districts, or they know par- 
 ticularly of a poor family down in the country, but they can not send 
 those things to them because it costs so much. It does not pay to add 
 the charge of expressage on those things. 
 
 The Chairman. In this connection would you advocate the enact- 
 ment of legislation which would create a large deficit in the opera- 
 tion itself? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Well, I must say I myself haven't any definite opin- 
 ion on that point. I think that the country now carries on many 
 things which do not pay for themselves, but the general taxation pays 
 for many things which you and I can not pay for individually, and 
 the general good to the community is of far more importance to us 
 than the actual financial result to the department. I do not believe 
 that anyone would say that the Department of the Interior pays for 
 itself or that the Library of Congress pays for itself. I happen to 
 be in the copyright office of the Library of Congress, and that does 
 have a large revenue, but nobody would claim that that office ought to 
 run just because it pays for itself, or it does not pay for itself, or it 
 should be abolished because it does not pay. So, I think the post 
 office belongs in the same category, it performs a service for all the 
 people who are interested in having things come from one to another, 
 and the postal service has increased in proportion to the education of 
 the people. Even the sending of parcels increases in accordance with 
 the education of the people. We go down to the alleys and find the 
 residents there never send a bundle by express or by mail, but educate 
 those people and they will become more interested in people outside 
 and you will find it will increase intercommunication between even 
 those people. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you look upon a postal department as one of 
 the most important, if not the most important, department from a 
 civilization standpoint ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. I certainly do. 
 
 The Chairman. Even if operated at a loss you think the good 
 accomplished would be sufficient compensation for the expense? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. But there must be a line drawn? 
 
PARCEL POST. 771 
 
 Miss Hifton. There must be a line. Now, if the express compa- 
 nies were to treat their men as well as the Post Office Department 
 treats its men, they probably would not have so much to distribute in 
 dividends. The dividends of the express companies are perfectly 
 enormous, but at night at Christmas time their men do not get home 
 to bed for 24 hours, and from a humane standpoint it is not a good 
 thing. We do not treat our postal carriers in any such way as the 
 express companies do. 
 
 The Chairman. But at Christmas time they work pretty generally 
 overtime because of the increased custom at that particular time ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes. But all the time it is the same thing with the 
 express companies. We do not find any such dissatisfaction among 
 the postal employees as exists among those employed by the express 
 companies. We never hear of any agitation for increase of pay from 
 the employees of the Post Office Department, and if they do agitate 
 a question for higher wages, or shorter hours, it is done in a more 
 quiet way, and they are met in a more humane way. When the 
 express employees go to their superiors for an increase in pay or 
 shorter hours they say : " We have nothing to arbitrate with you. If 
 you don't like your position we have somebody else waiting for it 
 who will be glad to get it." And there is no such thing as eight or 
 ten hours a day for employees of the express companies. I think 
 that is a serious proposition. 
 
 The Chairman. There are a good many serious problems before 
 the country. 
 
 Miss Hifton. I did want to tell you of the Long Island Railroad 
 Co. There is a Mr. Fullerton up there who has been interested in 
 getting fresh fruit and vegetables to the people direct. Mr. Fuller- 
 ton is in charge of the experimental stations of the Long Island 
 Railroad Co., one at Waiting River and one at Medford, and most 
 interesting stations they are. Mr. Fullerton grows the very best of 
 fruit and vegetables and the problem came up as to what to do with 
 this material when it was grown. He showed they could grow it, so 
 they invented a hamper — I can give you the size or a picture of the 
 hamper — in which to transport it. He puts in the hamper a variety 
 of vegetables, or fruit and vegetables in season, such as green corn, 
 green peas, and sends them to the consumers in that way. They are 
 shipped from his station every morning and they are at their desti- 
 nation in New York City ready to be served on the table at night. 
 Now, green corn and fresh peas picked in that way and put on the 
 table at night are entirely different from when they are purchased at 
 a market after probably laying there for three or four days. He 
 charges $2 for his basket. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, the hamper? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the original cost? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes ; of a complete hamper. 
 
 The Chairman. What does the hamper itself cost? 
 
 Miss Hifton. I do not know. The hamper goes with the food. 
 
 The Chairman. Oh. The cost depends somewhat on the contents, 
 does it not ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. No. . 
 
 The Chairman. If it contained corn, or potatoes, or fruit, they are 
 
 all the same price? 
 
772 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Miss Hifton. All the same. 
 
 The Chairman. $2 a hamper ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes; for fruit and vegetables in season. He sends 
 the basket for a regular price and will send you one every week on a 
 certain day. He could not do that by the regular general express, 
 but as he is an employee of this experimental station, which is run by 
 the Long Island Railroad Co., he utilizes the Long Island Express Co. 
 
 The Chairman. It is shipped by express, but the ownership of that 
 particular express company is the railroad itself, you mean ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. That is it. That, it seems to me, would indicate, if 
 we had the means of transportation, or we could at least have a 
 method by which those things could be sent, other people could be 
 benefited by such an arrangement as that. We haven't any such 
 arrangement in Washington, and we could not have it without the 
 parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not think you are safe in coming to such a 
 conclusion, because it may be the Long Island Railroad carries that 
 at a loss because they believe they are justified in so doing in the way 
 of advertising, or because they have interests in that locality and it 
 will create an enlarged market for the sale of that land. I know 
 nothing about it, but I am simply criticizing your deduction. Don't 
 you agree with me in the criticism that it is necessary, before coming 
 to a conclusion, to get all the causes and reasons for this peculiar, 
 unique situation ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes ; of course I do not mean to imply that the only 
 consideration was the hamper and the consumer. But it does show 
 what could be done, and it also shows how much benefit could be 
 derived from cheaper parcel post if these things could be done for us. 
 They do it in all the foreign countries. They do it with the cut 
 flowers in France, with the fresh fish in England, where they send 
 fresh fish from the coast of England to London. I do not know 
 whether they have oysters in Chicago or not, but you could have an 
 individual shipper ship you fresh oysters from the Atlantic coast 
 to Chicago. 
 
 The Chairman. But they could not get there any quicker than they 
 could at the present time, by the express. It might be delivered a 
 little sooner, but I doubt that. Of course you get oysters and fresh 
 live lobsters, and so forth, but they are not as good as they are directly 
 at the coast. 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes ; but you maybe sure of your shipper. Recently 
 I did hear of a parcel that came from Switzerland to the United 
 States containing books. I think we all agree that that condition 
 ought to be changed a bit. Those books were delivered, the parcel 
 coming from Switzerland and our Swiss shippers did not know there 
 was a difference between a book post and a parcel post, so when they 
 came to New York the parcel was delivered to the express company, 
 and it cost more to bring that parcel from New York to Washington 
 than it did from Berne, Switzerland, to New York. 
 
 The Chairman. It was shipped from Berne to New York under 
 the international rate? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes ; they did not know, however, that there was a 
 difference in the book rate, and the shipper at this end had to pay 
 once and a half as much from New York to Washington as it cost to 
 bring it from Berne, Switzerland, to New York. 
 
. PARCEL POST. 773 
 
 The Chairman. But that was a question of education and not one 
 of legislation? 
 
 Miss Hifton. But the legislation, it seems to me, would come in 
 the turning over of our postal business to the express companies in 
 this country. The post office could just as well have taken that parcel 
 from New York to Washington as they are bringing many things 
 to-day. 
 
 The Chairman. Where was it addressed — to Washington? 
 
 Miss Hifton. To Washington. 
 
 The Chairman. I see; I did not catch your illustration. It 
 stopped in the middle of its journey, and an additional charge was 
 added from New York to Washington. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You were speaking of the rates proposed for a 
 parcel post not being as generous as those that prevailed in foreign 
 countries. Don't you think that could be remedied by having the 
 charge based, to a certain extent, upon the distance that the article 
 was transmitted. You know we have very long distances here in the 
 United States. A flat rate would have to provide for the transport- 
 ing of many articles 3,000 miles or farther, and that would impose 
 the same charge for transporting it as one would have to pay for 10 
 or 15 miles. In this country where these distances exist, would it 
 not be more desirable to have a series of rates, based upon the dis- 
 tance the article was to be carried, so as to give the housewife an 
 opportunity to secure her supplies from near at hand at a much 
 cheaper rate than would have to be charged if a general rate covered 
 the entire country and let those who send their articles the long dis- 
 tances pay what would be a reasonable price for that distance? In 
 your judgment would it be more convenient or desirable for the 
 ordinary and average demands of the people to have charges based 
 upon that theory? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Personally, I think it would be — to use a common 
 phrase — going back on the principle that is already established, that 
 parcels are now carried by the post office, 4 pounds or under, at a 
 regular or general rate, and what is lost on carrying parcels a long 
 distance is made up by carrying other parcels short distances. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You think that is just, when it comes to trans- 
 porting merchandise upon that basis? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Well, merchandise is now transported on that basis. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I say, do you think it is just? 
 
 Miss Hifton. I do not know about the justice of it, but I know it 
 is far more convenient. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Then, you think it is right to charge a woman 
 as much for transporting 11 pounds of merchandise from here to 
 San Francisco as she should be charged for transporting the same 
 articles to Kockville ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. I think it is just if the rate is low enough. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you think the Government could transport 
 articles as cheaply to San Francisco as it could to Rockville ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. No ; certainly not, when you ask that direct question. 
 It can not do it quite as cheap from here to San Francisco as it can 
 from here to Rockville. But the difference in cost is made up for 
 there are many bundles going to Rockville and there will be few 
 bundles going to San Francisco at least for some years, and what is 
 lost in one direction they make up in another; in other words they 
 
774 PARCEL POST. 
 
 balance against each other. In our big stores here, when bargains 
 are presented for the public the explanation is that they have more of 
 one kind of material on hand than they can use at the present, so they 
 lose on that. They lose on those particular goods because they want 
 quick service and quick returns, and they depend upon making that 
 up in money on the other things to balance. They are always doing 
 that, and for the United States to do that it would balance off in the 
 same way. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Do you think that is fair ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes. I do; because I will be sending bundles to San 
 Francisco, and now I have the bother of going to an express com- 
 pany to find out what it costs. There a young man will take a book 
 and fumble around and keep me waiting probably 15 minutes to find 
 out what it will cost. He knows what it costs to Chicago, but does 
 not know what it would cost to southern Illinois. He has to go to 
 all of his schedules to find that out. If we had a flat rate I could 
 put the stamps on and let the article go. I dread Christmas, because 
 it means every bundle I send I have to go to the express office to find 
 out what it will cost, and the young men who always do the work 
 are not so quick-witted to do the things to let you go in the quickest 
 time. I can not even find time enough during the lunch hour to go 
 to the express office, because they keep me waiting so long. 
 
 The Chairman. How often do they have these bargain days in 
 the stores that you were speaking of ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. They have them quite frequently for the women who 
 watch the papers. 
 
 The Chairman. Then I should imagine the sex would take advan- 
 tage of those days and do all of their purchasing on those days. I 
 was wondering where the storekeeper would come in ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. All women are not so wise, and some of them want 
 their bonnets before Easter instead of after, and some of the girls 
 want their dresses before commencement and not after; and before 
 commencement days the prices are higher, and afterwards they are 
 a good deal lower. 
 
 The Chairman. So the regulation is due to the difference in the 
 personal equation of the individual ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Many of them ; yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do I understand you to contend that it is fair 
 to charge a lady who lives within 10 miles of Washington just as 
 much for transporting her household goods 10 miles as if she lived 
 3,000 miles from "Washington ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Well, I have been thinking about that myself. I 
 think parcels going out from the city of Washington to Rockvilie, 
 in a case of that kind, they might have such a thing as a radius, as 
 for instance they do out on the Great Falls & Old Dominion road 
 where they have fare zones. They have five fare zones, and every 
 time they get to one of these fare zones they collect 5 cents. Now, 
 from the city of Washington to Georgetown it is possible, and I think 
 it would be a good thing, to have parcels go from the city post office 
 in Washington instead of confining them to the station in McLean, 
 as I understand that is one of the stations on the Great Falls & Old 
 Dominion road. But I know most people do not agree with me on 
 that point, but there again it would balance up. I think they could 
 send them at the same rate ; the only difference that would be made 
 
PARCEL POST. 775 
 
 would be on the rural post office from which the post carriers start 
 on their routes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, we will take any post office where a store 
 happens to be located, and if there is a rate of 5 cents a pound, within 
 a radius of 50 miles of that post office, that would approximately 
 cover the expense of delivering packages within that radius from any 
 store in that community, and the people who lived within that radius 
 would have the advantage of that rate. Now, if there was some one 
 living a thousand miles farther, and it cost the Government, we will 
 say, doubly as -much to transport the package to this party living a 
 thousand miles away, do you think that in the last case the person 
 living a thousand miles away should have the same rate as any person 
 living within that radius of 50 miles ? In other words, why wouldn't 
 it be a good arrangement to have a radius, say of 50 miles, 100 miles, 
 200, 400, or 1,000? Thereby every one paying for the service they 
 get ; if they get a thousand-mile service they pay for a thousand miles. 
 If they get a fifty-mile service they pay for 50 miles. Now, doesn't 
 it strike you that would be a far more equitable system than to make 
 the party living within the 50-mile radius pay just as much for the 
 service he gets as is charged someone else for three or four times the 
 service ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. It seems to me I must again come back to the point 
 that it does not cost the Government 2 cents for every letter I 
 send to New York. They make a profit on me there, and I am not 
 at all adverse to somebody in New York or San Francisco getting 
 the profit that I do not get. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But the matter of a zone for a 1-cent or a 2- 
 cent letter would not be practicable because the amount is so small; 
 that is self-evident. But the transporting of express packages or 
 merchandise, certainly has to be placed upon a different basis from 
 letters, because those rates run into sums that are not divisible. The 
 transporting of these small packages of mail is for the purpose of 
 providing the people with a convenient way of communicating with 
 each other, and it also affords a cheap and convenient way of inform- 
 ing themselves upon matters relating to the welfare of the country 
 and society in general. It was for those reasons that our people have 
 believed in the past that such rates were necessary for the develop- 
 ment of a proper system in order to make our country one of self- 
 educated people; therefore that system was adopted. So, when we 
 go into the transportation of merchandise it is for the physical con- 
 venience of the people. Now, do you think it necessarily follows 
 that the same system should prevail. Don't you see quite a difference 
 between the one and the other ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes; there is a difference, and I can best illustrate 
 my point of view by way of illustration of another subject. In Bel- 
 gium I know of a particular good ticket they sell there. The theory 
 on which they work is this: They say the trains have to travel any- 
 way, and they might as well carry the people. We will take a fran- 
 chise away from a car company here in Washington that does not 
 send its cars over the tracks within the city of Washington on a cer- 
 tain schedule ; they must run the cars whether anybody rides on them 
 or not, the supposition being that people will be on them, but the 
 company often sends cars over the route which are empty. 
 
776 PARCEL POST. 
 
 In Belgium they have a ticket which is most interesting. The 
 ticket I bought when I was in Belgium allowed me to travel five 
 days anywhere over the country of Belgium third-class for $2.35. 
 There was no punching of a ticket, and all I had to do was put my 
 photograph on it. By using those tickets a person can get on and 
 off the trains as often as they like. You get three times the time 
 limit for twice the money, and they have a scale all the way along. 
 I don't know whether there is any ticket for more than 15 days, 
 but you can pay $4.70 to the Belgium State Railway for carrying you 
 15 days anywhere you like. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you be continuously on the go during those 
 15 days? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Continuously on the go. There is no limit at all 
 to the distance you can travel. The point is that the trains must go 
 and the carrying of people does not hurt them. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The trains must go. The Government runs those 
 trains ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. The Government owns and operates the Belgium 
 State Railway. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And it operates the trains at public expense? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Not at public expense. The passengers pay for 
 their fares and there is no deficit on the Belgium State Railway. I 
 would not swear to that, however, but my impression is that there 
 is no deficit carried by those railways. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Then are we to infer it does not cost more than 
 $4.70 to transport a passenger continuously over the Belgium State 
 Railway ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. No; but there are profits for carrying passengers 
 shorter distances. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, the party with a 15-day ticket is getting 
 a very large amount of travel at the expense of someone else. 
 
 Miss Hifton. No ; it is not at the expense of somebody else. The 
 cost of the small ticket practically pays for running the train. You 
 see, the traveler gets the difference. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes; it costs more than $4.70 to haul a man 
 around for 15 days on a train. He is getting something for which 
 someone else is paying. 
 
 Miss Hifton. Well, of course they know the people would not be 
 on the trains for 15 days and they would not be getting on and off all 
 the time. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The ordinary commercial traveler would always 
 own those tickets and be traveling all the time? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Very likely. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And the proposition is that somebody else is 
 paying for what the commercial traveler is getting? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes; but their opinion is they think they ought to 
 be hauled. Some people like to be traveling all the time. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Don't you think it is a good thing for a good 
 many people to stay at home as well as to be traveling all the time? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Unfortunately a great many have to stay at home 
 too much. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, they would not do the excessive traveling 
 that they would under such circumstances? 
 
PABCEL, POST. 777 
 
 Miss Hifton. No; but they would do some traveling which they 
 would not do otherwise. In Belgium it costs less to buy a five-day 
 ticket than it costs to buy a ticket from one place to another. They 
 say it is a good thing for the people of Belgium to know Belgium. 
 
 The Chairman. It increases national spirit. 
 
 Miss Hifton. It increases national spirit, and also the historical 
 feature, which they think is a good thing. It helps the spirit of 
 continuity. There are two different sections of Belgium which were 
 not always homogenous; there were the Flems on the one side and 
 the Walloons on the other. The mountain people and the lowland 
 people; they have had their struggles against themselves, and the 
 Government says it is a good thing for the people of Belgium to be- 
 come better acquainted with one another and to become likewise better 
 united. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, that is a very satisfactory explanation be- 
 cause there is a purpose to serve them other than a commercial one. 
 
 Miss Hifton. In Switzerland they do the same thing and they 
 haven't had a great deal of trouble there. In some places of Switzer- 
 land they have some kind of a fee to encourage the people to travel. 
 People will learn from travel more than they will learn from books. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Would you follow that up and have our railroad 
 systems charge you the same rate to travel from here to Baltimore as 
 they charge you from here to San Francisco? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes; I should travel to San Francisco then and I 
 can not now. I think it would be a good thing for me to go to San 
 Francisco. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes ; but it might be quite expensive on those of 
 us who do not want to make such long journeys? 
 
 Miss Hifton. The law of equation will even them up. I could one 
 year gd to San Francisco and the next year somewhere else, but there 
 would be a good many people who could not go except by saving up 
 for a year. However, under the other system they could go a long 
 distance one year and the next year another long distance. But I 
 think it is a short-sighted policy on the part of the Government to 
 put a tax on intercommunication. Intercommunication ought to be 
 made as easy as possible, and travel to San Francisco would do many 
 of our people much good as well as travel to the mountains in the 
 northwest of our country. In that case lots of our people would go 
 to California and to the West instead of to Europe first. 
 
 The Chairman. It would create a better citizenship, you think? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Certainly; and give them more interest in publie 
 affairs, which they need, I think. 
 
 The Chairman. And stronger love of country? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Certainly. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you think it would be a just policy to charge 
 just as much for going from Washington to Baltimore as from 
 Washington to San Francisco, and that those who travel from Bal- 
 timore to Washington ought to pay for the people who prefer to go 
 to San Francisco? 
 
 Miss Hifton. No ; I did not say that. Did you not misunderstand 
 me ? Traveling in that way is not done in Belgium. There a single 
 ticket costs less than a ticket for a five-day trip. I am not sure 
 whether that means to the end of the country or not, but for the 
 question of the transportation of parcels, which is the question I am 
 
778 PARCEL POST. 
 
 considering now, where the cost is not so excessive and where the 
 dividends to the express companies are reduced, we will get the 
 benefit of that difference. I am quite convinced on that point. I was 
 looking into the question of investment of money a short time ago, 
 looking over the dividend rates from industrial countries, the rail- 
 road companies and the express companies, and I was perfectly 
 astounded when I saw that one express company paid 125 per cent 
 dividends. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that was a melon that they cut at that time. 
 
 Miss Hifton. Well, they cut them too often. 
 
 The Chairman. I would like very much for you to give the com- 
 mittee the benefit of your own personal views as to the conditions 
 existing in Belgium, and if you would, in Germany and also in Eng- 
 land, as compared with the conditions among the people here and 
 their railroads compared to the railroads in our country. I would 
 like to have your own views, what conclusion you came to as to the 
 conditions existing there as compared with our own, whether there 
 was greater opportunity there under their conditions and laws than 
 we give to our own citizens in our own country, or whether we have 
 greater opportunities here. 
 
 Mips Hifton. 1 think I can answer that by saying I had a little silk 
 American flag with me — my parents came from Belgium — which I 
 gave to one of my cousins. I was there on a visit a few days, and 
 before I left I said : " You will have to give me that flag back again, 
 and I will send it to you from the United States ; I can not leave it." 
 The conditions are so different, the country so much older, the eco- 
 nomic restrictions are greater, wages are less on the whole for the 
 same kind of service that we render here ; so I think the balance is 
 far to our credit, but we have much to learn. There are some things 
 better in the old country and some things better here, but things that 
 regard the public good are much better looked after there, I believe, 
 than here. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think there is a greater personal liberty in 
 those countries than in our own ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. No; I think the personal liberties are greater here 
 and the personal oportunities are smaller there. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you attribute that to the citizenship, to the 
 individual, or to the resources of the country, comparing the two 
 countries ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. The resources of the country here are enormous — 
 simply marvelous as compared with anything on the other side. 
 
 The Chairman. Given the relative resources of the country, is the 
 development of our own people equal to that of the people of the 
 countries you have traveled in ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. I think the historical spirit is not developed among 
 us the way it is among the people of Europe. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there as much patriotism in the United States 
 as in these countries you have described ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. But not as much knowledge of the country and 
 knowledge of other countries. We are too insular — that is the expres- 
 sion they use now. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, isn't that natural result due to our isolation, 
 relatively, compared with the countries you speak of, and the enor- 
 mous extent of distance and magnitude of everything in this country ? 
 
PARCEL POST. 779 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a natural consequence. 
 
 Miss Hifton. Yes ; but I think we have a great deal to be proud of, 
 and our people have done marvelous things, but we must keep an 
 open mind and remember other people have done greater things, for 
 if they had not we would not be able to do the things we are doing 
 now. 
 
 The Chairman. You believe in interchange of ideas ? 
 
 Miss Hifton. Exactly. 
 
 The Chairman'. I agree with you. 
 
 Miss Hifton. As a friend once said, "Don't begin where I am; 
 stand on my own shoulders." 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you, Miss Hifton, for 
 your views. 
 
TESTIMONY OF MES. CHARLES 0. H. CRAIGIE, PRESIDENT BROOK- 
 LYN PUBLIC LIBRARY ASSOCIATION, BROOKLYN, N. Y. 
 
 (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state, for the information of the 
 committee, your age, residence, and occupation, Mrs. Craigie ? 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. Mrs. Charles O. H. Craigie; 38 years of age. I do 
 not exactly know what my occupation is ; I am a very busy woman ; 
 housekeeper, and so forth. I am the president of the Brooklyn 
 Public Library Association, and I might like to say a few words 
 about the library. 
 
 The Chairman. We would be very glad to hear you, Mrs. Craigie. 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. I am the guest of Mrs. Wiley. She asked me to 
 come up and to say a few words, and as a housekeeper living a part 
 of the year suburban to Brooklyn, I would like to do so. 
 
 The Chairman. Relative to the parcel-post question? 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. Yes ; relative to the parcel-post question. I have had 
 for 25 years a suburban home, where we have lived during half of the 
 year. We have a cheap parcel delivery that I think this bill would 
 put out of business entirely, but I think that they would be very 
 glad to be put out of business. I refer to the husbands of the ladies 
 who live suburban ; what we call commuters. I do not know whether 
 or not you have that term, but in all large cities the suburban portions 
 of the cities are being developed by people coming out from the cities 
 and taking land and building suburban homes, often for the summer 
 in the beginning, but very many of them remain there during the 
 entire year. They have commuters' rates. Very often there are no 
 stores in the sections and the husband is asked by the wife to bring out 
 the things at night. 
 
 The Chairman. Which he does with pleasure, of course. 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. These commuters are loaded down, and as Miss 
 Hifton spoke for the women, I would like to make a plea for the 
 husbands in the suburban sections, to relieve them from this parcels 
 delivery which they are now very much burdened with. I have been 
 very much interested in hearing questions asked the previous wit- 
 nesses, and especially the ones with regard to the patronage of the 
 country stores. I have lived between 20 and 25 years in this one 
 place, 20 miles out of Brooklyn, where we have had a summer home. 
 and during that period there have been the same stores there, estab- 
 lished and carried on by the same people. 
 
 The Chairman. How many people do they serve ? 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. In this little place where I live ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. It has been growing so constantly that I could hardly 
 tell you. Our district school which had two departments now has 
 eight; it is a graded school. I suppose the population now in that 
 little town is about 3,500. We try for the sake of friendliness to 
 patronize these country stores, but they do not carry the quality of 
 780 
 
PABOBL POST. 781 
 
 goods that we have been accustomed to, and it is really almost im- 
 possible to use the goods that they do carry. They are a lower grade 
 of goods, suited more for the class of laboring people or those that 
 have been accustomed to them. You can not get, for instance, first- 
 class butter in those stores or the early fruits or vegetables. We have 
 to send to the city for them. We have to get them sent out by express 
 at a big cost or we have to ask our husbands to bring them out after 
 a hard day's work at their offices. I do not think the question should 
 involve the injury done to a few country stores so much as the com- 
 fort of the households which would be benefited by this parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. Assuming that there were a million and a quarter 
 country storekeepers in the United States, how many commuters 
 would you say there would be ? 
 
 Mrs. Ceaigie. I could not begin to tell you ; there are hundreds of 
 thousands of commuters out of New York, I suppose. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, the million and a quarter storekeepers are 
 more generally distributed over the United States than the com- 
 muters are, are they not? 
 
 Mrs. Ceaigie. Yes; and they will get the patronage of them so 
 far as the storekeepers can supply the demands. I think that the 
 demand is for things that they can not carry. I think most every 
 one living suburban has the spirit or desire to help those country 
 stores, and would buy what they could from them, but that there 
 are many things that they do not supply and that we can not possibly 
 get from them. 
 
 The Chairman. Your statement was interesting to me that the 
 same condition existed during your 20 years' residence as to the num- 
 ber of country stores and their personnel, notwithstanding there 
 had been a tremendous increase in population in that locality. The 
 country storekeeper, realizing that there was a demand for butter, 
 fresh eggs, and vegetables; am I to understand that he did not try 
 to serve or fill that demand? 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. They have improved the standard somewhat, but 
 there is not the demand for the higher-priced things that would war- 
 rant them to put in a stock of high-priced goods. 
 
 The Chairman. The commuters are represented by individuals 
 who have made their fortunes and live in the country for the love of 
 the country; the desire for the change causes them to make their 
 residence in the country for as long a portion of the year as conditions 
 will permit. Their tastes are cultivated to a much higher stage than 
 the ordinary citizens. Consequently, I do not think the case you have 
 mentioned would be illustrative of the conditions generally existing 
 throughout the country. Do you think so ? 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. I think they would be of suburban life everywhere ; 
 out of Philadelphia, out of Boston, or out of Chicago. 
 
 The Chairman. That is true, as far as concerns the special part 
 of our population designated by you as commuters. The conditions 
 would be the same out of any large city; it is perfectly immaterial 
 what city you take into consideration ; but taking the great mass of 
 our citizenship, any one in the city accustomed to the large stocks in 
 trade, the greater variety from which to make selections, would find 
 the same difficulty if he went into a country store. He could not 
 expect anything different, because the demand would not be the same. 
 
782 PARCEL. POST. 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. Now, the storekeepers have made a great deal of 
 money. They are prosperous men. 
 
 The Chairman. They have had some trade. 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. Yes; we patronize them as much as we can. I do 
 not think the proposed manner of delivery would hurt the country 
 stores in the least. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you not find that the husband, if he was a 
 merchant in business in the city and he thought his trade with the 
 country merchant was going to be injured, would still be willing to 
 carry these packages in preference to losing his trade ? 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. I think they would be very glad to be released. 
 
 The Chairman. Even at the expense of losing trade in his business ? 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. I think so. From my experience of years of subur- 
 ban living I think that such a delivery as this would meet a great 
 want on the part of the suburban dweller. I have been staying for 
 the last few years in Canada, and there are one or two points about 
 the delivery there that I would like to speak of. The English postal 
 laws prepare for the delivery of 3 to 11 pounds to New York at 24 
 cents; that is going through our New York post office. Now, from 
 England to Canada there is a postal rate of 3 pounds for 24 cents, 7 
 pounds for 48 cents, and 11 pounds for 72 cents; and I should suppose 
 that there is a profit on that, for I think England does not go into 
 charitable business in these things. I think they make it pay at those 
 rates. Now, there was one point brought out about the delivery of 
 books, and as president of the Brooklyn Public Library Association 
 I would like to speak about that. We have had no discussion on this 
 special measure, I having been absent from home, but we have agi- 
 tated for cheaper postal delivery and helped to reduce the postage 
 on books to the present rate; but it is hardly as low as it should be 
 even now. We have, for instance, a fine of 2 cents on every book that 
 is kept out overtime. Now, many of the members of our libraries 
 go into the country in summer and they take books with them, club 
 women, who are largely preparing their papers for fall, we allow 
 several books of reference on their call cards, only one of fiction. 
 They take those books with them to their country, or suburban homes, 
 and they use them as long as they please, and then they wish to 
 return them. Sometimes the use has extended over the period for 
 which they have taken out those books. 
 
 The Chairman. You allow them to take out for two weeks ? 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. Reference books, for two weeks. In addition to re- 
 turning those books they have to pay a fine of 2 cents a day for each 
 book. I know of persons who have sent to the library the cost of 
 the book rather than return it, because they said the postage on it 
 was too heavy; for reference books are very, very heavy. The cost 
 of returning this book, plus the fine of a few days, would be more 
 than equal to the cost of the book to the library. Therefore they 
 return the cost of the book and keep it. 
 
 The Chairman. If the book is lost, does the individual have the 
 right to simply pay the cost of the book, or do the fines go on in- 
 definitely until they reach the maximum? What fine is the cost of 
 the book? 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. If the book is lost there are library regulations — they 
 are supposed to pay for every day that the book is not returned to 
 the library, but if it is lost through the mail or other delivery they 
 
PARCEL POST. 783 
 
 are allowed to replace the book from the time it should have been 
 returned. 
 
 The Chairman. Without fine, other than the cost of the book ? 
 
 Mrs. Ceaigie. Without fine other than the cost of the book. I think 
 that Mrs. Wiley has a card now announcing that there is a book in 
 the post office here and that the post-office authorities will not deliver 
 it; she has to call for it. Your present system does not deliver books. 
 
 Senator Beistow. It depends on the weight. 
 
 The Chaieman. Those are rules and regulations that the Post 
 Office Department, reserves to itself as to what packages shall be 
 delivered and what shall not. 
 
 Mrs. Ceaigie. The book is not delivered to the person to whom it 
 is mailed and it makes more or less confusion, for the person must 
 go to the post office and get that book. 
 
 The Chaieman. As I say, where the packages are too large the 
 addressee is requested to call at the post office and receive it. You 
 have to have some limits. • 
 
 Mrs. Ceaigie. This extension of weight would provide for that r 
 would it not? 
 
 The Chaieman. That would be a detail. I assume that any legis- 
 lation that may be enacted would leave the matter of a detail of that 
 nature to the postal authorities themselves in order to work out as 
 to just how far the law could practically operate. 
 
 Mrs. Ceaigie. I was just speaking of this as it occurred to me. 
 Now, the Swiss postal laws provide 4-pound parcel delivery for 3 
 cents. 
 
 The Chaieman. But with a much smaller territory than we have 
 in this country and more concentration of population per square 
 mile. All those problems have to be taken into consideration in a 
 study of this kind. 
 
 Mrs. Ceaigie. That is true. The question of delivery, though, 
 should not bear relation to distance. It hardly seems that it should. 
 
 The Chaieman. No; I agree with you. The question of delivery, 
 regardless of distance recognized by itself, is a distinct feature from 
 the transportation, if you mean from the depot of final collection. 
 The post office of ultimate destination and the delivery from that 
 point is a distinct question by itself. 
 
 Mrs. Ceaigie. Apropos of that point, I would like to cite the testi- 
 mony of Commissioner George R. Blanchard, of the Joint Traffic 
 Association, testifying on behalf of a uniform rate on milk to New 
 York, before the Interstate Commerce Commission. Mr. Blanchard 
 declared that there was no reason why it should not be extended to 
 1,000 miles, and Messrs. Rogers, Locke, and Milburn, counsel for the 
 Delaware, Lackawanna & Western Railway, said : 
 
 The distance, within which the rate on milk should be uniform, need only be 
 limited by the time required to make it with the train and meet the wants of 
 the New York market with milk not affected by its transportation. 
 
 The cost of train operation is not appreciably more, whether there be 200 can» 
 in a car, or 160 cans in a car, or 10 cans in a car. The same crew, the same 
 messengers and organization, and the same terminal service have to be main- 
 tained whether the car be carried from Binghamton or not, or from Sussex 
 County or not, and the cost of the delivery of the can at the Hoboken terminal 
 is in no real sense dependent upon the length of its haul. 
 
 That was the principle, and it seems to me that would apply to 
 
 other things. 
 
784 PABCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. But the motor power is a prerequisite for any 
 transportation whatever ; also the cost of the trains, the rights of way, 
 etc. 
 
 Mrs. Ceaigie. There is just one other point that has not been 
 brought up that occurs to me in the case of suburban limits, and that 
 is the obtaining of medicines or appliances for the sick. These things 
 may be more quickly gotten through the postal service than ordinary 
 delivery. The telephone has given us opportunity to order quickly. 
 
 The Chairman. You order altogether by phone, do you not ; that is, 
 the commuters, as you designate them ? 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. We do. If we have sickness and want proper appli- 
 ances or medicines, we can telephone. A quick delivery, for instance, 
 would help in sickness. 
 
 The Chairman. You utilize that now, do you not ? 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. For small quantities, yes; but there are often other 
 things that could be ordered, and it would be a great saving to have 
 such a service and often a saving of life in case of sickness. In the 
 library we have been very much interested in the lessening of the cost 
 of carrying books. It has been reduced somewhat, but it is not yet 
 
 !>roportionate to what it should be. The summer service ought to be 
 ess, because the patrons of our libraries are living suburban and have 
 to send in the books and send for the books, and the summertime is 
 the time when our club women do their studying. They have more 
 leisure then than in the winter, and they want to utilize that time for 
 Reference work. They need more books, perhaps, than they do 
 through the winter season, when they are in town and can go per- 
 sonally to the library ; so that we have thought that the very lowest 
 rates that we can have for the transportation of books is going to 
 mean a great help in the educational life of the country. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you agree with Mrs. Hifton that the rates 
 should be reduced one-half? 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. I think they should. It was reduced one-half of 
 what the original rate was, but even 
 
 The Chairman. I mean still further reduced. 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. I think it should be still further reduced. It would 
 help very much the intellectual life of our people through the cir- 
 culation of books. We have now the traveling libraries that we 
 send out. 
 
 The Chairman. How extensive is that service ? 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. I started that library myself in Brooklyn in 1907. 
 There had been no movement on record in the city of Brooklyn for 
 a public library. The women took it up and we got the library estab- 
 lished on a small scale before we were turned over to Greater New 
 York. We have now over 20 branches in different parts of the sys- 
 tem, and the traveling library is an adjunct. 
 
 The Chairman. How many vehicles have you ? 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. When I was in the library we had about 500 travel- 
 ing libraries — little cases of 50 or 100 books ready to go out. We 
 started it and we worked it up through the women's clubs. We sent 
 to the police precincts and to the different homes. In some cases 
 books were never returned; for instance, from the hospitals. They 
 were part of the city, and we felt that they should have the books. 
 In various ways we got those libraries in circulation. You have here 
 in Congress now Mr. Redfield, who became one of our directors, and 
 
PARCEL. POST. 785 
 
 he used the traveling libraries for his workmen, those men who could 
 not go after library hours to the library, and he took these cases in 
 his factory. The men took those books home at night and brought 
 them back in the daytime. 
 
 The Chairman. But have you any automobiles or vehicles of any 
 kind that go out from the library every day over a certain route so 
 that the people living on that route can get a book and return other 
 books? 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. How many have you? 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. I think they have only one delivery. The Book- 
 lovers' Library started that in Brooklyn, and to compete with 
 them 
 
 The Chairman. But in the case of the Booklovers' Library the 
 people have to go to the library themselves, do they not ? 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. No. 
 
 The Chairman. Do they deliver books? 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. They deliver right to the door. Now, I feel that I 
 have taken as much of the committee's time as I should. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee would be glad indeed to hear any- 
 thing further that you have to say, Mrs. Craigie. 
 
 Mrs. Craigie. I do not think that there is anything else. We have 
 Mrs. Barber here, who wishes to make some remarks. 
 
TESTIMONY OP MRS. LEDROIT L. BARBER, PRESIDENT EQUAL 
 STATE SUFFRAGE ASSOCIATION, WASHINGTON, D. C. 
 
 (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly state your age, residence, and 
 occupation ? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. Mrs. LeDroit Barber; 30 years of age; residence, 
 The Belmont, Fourteenth and Clifton Streets, Washington, D. C. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you represent any association? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. Yes ; I am the president of the State Association of 
 Equal Suffrage ; that is, the association of the District of Columbia. 
 I have just been elected. 
 
 The Chairman. How large an organization do you have, Mrs. 
 Barber. 
 
 Mrs. Barber. It is under three other organizations and I really 
 do not know the membership of it. 
 
 The Chairman. It is the same organization that Miss Etheridge 
 belongs to, is it? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. Yes ; and Mrs Wiley. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you in favor of or opposed to a parcel post? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. Decidedly in favor of it. I was born in Austria; I 
 was brought up in Europe, and I can say that the parcel post works 
 very satisfactorily there. I do not know anything else but the 
 parcel post. The way they manage it over there they have large 
 delivery wagons. It is a special department of the postal service. 
 It is really a great help to the people, especially the people living in 
 the country. 
 
 The Chairman. In what particular countries in Europe have you 
 noticed the practical operation of the parcel post? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. In all countries ; I can speak particularly of Austria. 
 It operates very well there, and I am perfectly sure it is self- 
 supporting. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any dissatisfaction with the parcel post 
 in Austria ? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. No, not at all ; not that I know of. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there many country stores in Austria? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. Of course, Austria has a great deal smaller territory 
 than this country, but you could manage a parcel post just as well 
 here. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you have mail-order houses to any extent in 
 Austria ? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. Some ; but, of course, the express service is not strong 
 there. You have here the express companies ; we have not so many 
 express companies over there. It is all taken by the parcel-post 
 service. 
 
 The Chairman. Which takes the place of the express companies? 
 786 
 
PARCEL POST. 787 
 
 Mrs. Babbee. It is simply a governmental affair. I think there, 
 of course, the consumer gets the benefit, because it is run by the 
 Government and probably run better than it would be by an in- 
 dividual. 
 
 The ChaIrman. There is general satisfaction with the service in 
 Austria, as far as you know? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. Absolutely; and in Germany, too. 
 
 The Chairman. And no criticism anywhere— no interest that is 
 opposed to it anywhere? The country merchants are not opposed 
 to it? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. No. It helps the country merchant just as much 
 as it helps the consumer. He can have most things sent through 
 the parcel post just as well. I do not see why it should be a draw- 
 back to the country merchant. 
 
 The Chairman. You think it would operate in this country just 
 the same as it does in Austria ? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. I have no doubt that it would operate a great deal 
 better here. Everything is done in a great deal better way in this 
 country. If a parcel post were established here perhaps it would 
 operate in a better way than over there. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know of anybody in Europe that is op- 
 posed to the system? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. It was never discussed in Parliament; nothing was 
 ever said in the way of adverse criticism. It is well run and well 
 organzied. , It is just like one big express company over the whole 
 country. 
 
 The Chairman. Has there been any demand, as far as you know,, 
 to increase the present size of packages in those countries and decrease 
 the present rate of postage? Are they perfectly satisfied with pres- 
 ent conditions? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. They are perfectly satisfied with existing conditions. 
 You can send by parcel post almost anything over there; steamer 
 chairs, and so forth ; big packages and small packages ; everything is 
 delivered through the parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. One hundred and ten pounds is the limit, is it 
 not, of any one package in weight that can be sent ? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. One hundred or one hundred and ten pounds; I do 
 not know exactly; 50 kilograms — I think that is about 100 pounds. 
 I think that there are very few times that people would want to 
 send more than that. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any further information that you wish 
 to bring to the attention of the committee, Mrs. Barber ? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. No ; nothing except that I can say that the service 
 is absolutely satisfactory over there. In Europe the parcel-post sys- 
 tem is universally appreciated. I do not know of any country oyer 
 there where it is operated but what it is operated to the satisfaction 
 of everyone. 
 
 The Chairman. There would be dissatisfaction over there if the 
 service were abandoned, would there not? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. Absolutely. 
 
 The Chairman. Did you find the same condition or sentiment 
 among the people of England? 
 
788 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mrs. Barber. While I visited England a great many times, I can 
 not speak for England. 
 
 The Chairman. But in Austria and Germany? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. Yes; everything was satisfactory there. You see, 
 it has been established for years and years over there, and it is just 
 a department of the postal service and is well run, and I am abso- 
 lutely sure it is not run with a deficit ; it is impossible. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you believe in a zone rate ? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. To a certain extent. 
 
 The Chairman. You have a zone rate in Germany ? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. We have a zone rate. The express companies here 
 have it, too. 
 
 The Chairman. Certainly, where they are outside of other com- 
 petition, and, of course, that is a basis of transportation in one 
 feature of it. 
 
 Mrs. Barber. The express companies in this country, Senator, have 
 now really the business which the parcel post ought to have, have 
 they not? 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that is a difficult question. That is what I 
 am trying to find out. The committee is now trying to come to cer- 
 tain conclusions and we are in a process of getting information and 
 then making our study and coming to the conclusion. We have 
 found it a pretty difficult problem. Bearing on that question that you 
 just asked, the average business of the express company is, as I un- 
 derstand, 34 to 36. pounds per parcel. The particular problem we have 
 under investigation is increasing our weight limit from 4 pounds to 
 11 pounds on our fourth-class mail matter, which is the same as the 
 parcel post in your country. 
 
 Mrs. Barber. If we had a parcel post that matter would be very 
 much simplified. When I came back from Europe I had some bundles 
 sent through by express and it took me about six weeks to get them; 
 they were transferred from one express company to another, and I 
 had considerable trouble in tracing them. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, take Vienna. How many mail-order houses 
 are there in Vienna ? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. What do you mean by mail-order houses? 
 
 The Chairman. Where the purchasing is done entirely through the 
 mail, and the delivery made through the parcel-post system. 
 
 Mrs. Barber. That is not done as much over there as here, yet the 
 parcel-post service is simply tremendous over there. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you find pretty generally throughout the coun- 
 tries of Austria and Germany little stores? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. Yes, certainly ; of course, on a smaller scale than in 
 this country. It is not such a large country, but the conditions are 
 pretty nearly the same. Even if they do not have so many mail-order 
 houses, the service of the parcel post is of tremendous value to the 
 population. I could not conceive of anything that would result in 
 the taking away of the parcel post from the people. 
 
 The Chairman. A gentleman appeared before the committee the 
 other day who was opposed to the parcel post and made the state- 
 ment, as I remember it, that there was considerable dissatisfaction 
 with the parcel post in England. 
 
 Mrs. Barber. Why ? 
 
PARCEL POST. 78& 
 
 The Chairman. Well, he had some difficulty in stating why ; that 
 was a matter of opinion. 
 
 Mrs. Barber. Dissatisfaction on the part of the public ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; the individuals that he had talked with ; and 
 I have in mind that I had heard that they had under consideration 
 the abrogation in Germany, and I think in Austria, of the zone sys- 
 tem, and making it a flat rate all over the country. Have you any 
 knowledge on that point ? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. No ; I have not. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any other points of information, Mrs. 
 Barber, that you think you could favor the committee with? 
 
 Mrs. Barber. No ; I think not. 
 
 The Chairman. We are greatly obliged to you, indeed. 
 
 (The committee thereupon, at 5.30 o'clock p. m., adjourned, subject 
 to the call of the chairman.) 
 
MONDAY, DECEMBER 18, 1911. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 4 o'clock p. m. 
 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), Senator 
 Joseph L. Bristow, and Senator Frank O. Briggs. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. CHARLES W. BURROWS, OF CLEVELAND, 
 
 OHIO. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Burrows, it will be necessary that you be 
 sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age, residence, and 
 occupation ? 
 
 Mr, Burrows. This week, on December 21, I shall be 62 years of 
 age. My residence is Cleveland, Ohio; my occupation, publisher, 
 bookseller, and stationer. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you connected with any organization, com- 
 mercial organization, Mr. Burrows, relative to your business? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I am ; our firm is a member of the American Book- 
 sellers and Stationers' Association, and for a long time I was first vice 
 president of the American Booksellers' Association, but my principal 
 assistant has taken that place for a number of years. 
 
 The Chairman. For the benefit of the committee I wanted to know 
 whether you are appearing before the committee in any official ca- 
 pacity as representing any official organization, or whether you are 
 giving the committee the benefit of your own views. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I have the honor to represent, Senator, the National 
 Shoe Wholesalers' Association, and credentials regarding that repre- 
 sentation will be left with you by Mr. Moon. In July, before the 
 House committee, I represented the American League of Associations 
 conjointly with him, but now he has appeared before you, I believe. 
 Then, I also have some from Mr. F. J. Fernley, of the National Supply 
 and Machinery Dealers' Association, secretary and treasurer of that 
 body, and the National 
 
 The Chairman. I think Mr. Fernley has been before the com- 
 mittee. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. He has been for the National Hardware Association ; 
 and then I personally take a great interest in the question and would 
 like the privilege of appearing for my own self individually, as well 
 as in any other capacity. 
 
 The Chairman. Then your views that you submit to the committee 
 will be substantially your own personal views, and when there are 
 any views of any organizations to be submitted you will so designate 
 in your replies. You appeared before the House committee, did you 
 not? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Last July; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Then I will ask you in your evidence before this 
 committee, in order not to duplicate the same ideas, to give the com- 
 790 
 
PARCEL POST. 791 
 
 mittee the benefit of any new viewpoints that were not covered in 
 your evidence before the House committee; and we would be very 
 glad to hear a terse statement, even if it is a repetition, of what 
 occurred, in order that you can have a connected story relative to the 
 matter. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. It would almost be impossible to cover the matter 
 without running over the ground twice in anything like a connected 
 view of it. I did not take the time there to give as extended a view 
 of certain parts of it as I wish I had and was invited by the com- 
 mittee to do it when I had finished, but it is so very hard to hark back 
 and take up an old trail and go side branching in 20 places. So that 
 with your permission and patience I will start on a new line here. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you in favor of or opposed to an increase in 
 the present fourth-class mail-matter activity? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. The present fourth-class mail-matter activities, 
 which, of course, is the equivalent of parcels in the postal service, 
 in a minor way, is something that as it extends I should be very 
 glad to see kept within its limits, not extended. In other words, I 
 personally, and for the bodies that I do represent, oppose the exten- 
 sion of what we call your parcel-post service. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, are you opposed to any extension whatever 
 in the fourth-class mail matter, with an increase in the weight limit 
 and a decrease in postage ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I fear I am, absolutely. I started out on this side of 
 the question, and the more I studied it the more I have personally 
 gotten around to that view that I am absolutely opposed to any ex- 
 tension of it. If it will save time, perhaps you will permit me to state 
 why I am opposed to it. 
 
 The Chairman. I would like very much to have you state that, 
 and then if the committee desires to interrupt you we will do so. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I started studying what is the matter with the book 
 business of America to-day. I studied it perhaps for a dozen years, 
 and I seemed to myself to have found it. Now, this question of any 
 extension of your so-called parcel carriage in the parcel service of 
 the United States, that I have the honor of coming before you gentle- 
 men of the Senate Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads as an 
 opponent of, comes to me as a part of the same question that is at 
 present underlying three or four other postal questions. We have 
 a demand for a parcel-carrying service in this country. The agita- 
 tion is very evident and has been for a number of years. There are 
 several sources for it. What are those sources are very well known to 
 you gentlemen. There is one source that is very well known to me, 
 as I understand it, that I think has not been given credit by either 
 the Eepresentatives in the House or the members of the Senate com- 
 mittee on this matter. .,,.,., , ■, 
 
 There is another side of it from which I think perhaps you draw 
 a conclusion just diametrically opposite to what I shall draw as 
 to the source of this agitation. Then there is a persistent agitation 
 for 1-cent letter postage. There is an equally persistent agitation 
 for the advancement of the second-class mail-matter rates. Under- 
 lying all of these questions — and it seems to me the root of the whole 
 matter— is the second-class mail-matter rate. And that second-class 
 mail-matter rate, as I can see it, has done more to injure the country 
 newspapers of the United States than any other one thing. It has 
 
792 PARCEL POST. 
 
 built up the big city dailies and it has created monopolies in that 
 respect. Now, if all of the questions are connected together, how are 
 they connected together, and what is the big source of this big parcel- 
 carriage agitation? To get at that in a logical way, perhaps I can 
 best do so by giving a brief history or summarization of the matter, if 
 you gentlemen will be willing to permit me. Back in 1843 it cost 25 
 cents to carry a half-an-ounce letter from New York to Buffalo, 
 perhaps fifty miles. That rate, by successive reductions up to Octo- 
 ber, 1883, from that law passed in March, 1883, was reduced to the 
 present rate of 2 cents, and the reductions were many and frequent 
 and had to be immensely large in the aggregate to get it from 25 
 cents for a short distance for a half -ounce letter to 2 cents for a two- 
 ounce letter carried thousands of miles. Since 1883 we have had no 
 reductions. Three-fifths of the time has seen no reduction. Why? 
 Just because the pound-rate postage law was passed on the 23d of 
 June, 1884. Starting with the volume of second-class mail of only 
 40,000,000 pounds, the development of that second-class mail matter, 
 the periodical literature of the country, has resulted in almost a gift 
 to the publishers of the carriage and distribution charges; and so 
 large and good a subsidy was that to them, in effect — indirectly, to 
 be sure — that that has developed up to the present our new rate, 
 and the present volume is 950,000,000 pounds, I think, you will show 
 this year; last year, 873,000,000 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. You are referring now to second-class mail? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. To second-class mail. The volume of it increased 
 from only 40,000,000 pounds in the first year the law became opera- 
 tive to 956,000,000 pounds. Since 1790 we have had the population 
 of the country increase more than twenty-fold; we have had its 
 wealth increase more than forty-fold, but the business of the post 
 office has increased twenty-five hundred fold. 
 
 The Chairman. How about the business of the country itself, have 
 you an estimate on that? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Nothing more than that as the wealth has increased 
 forty-fold, naturally the business has increased most largely, but 
 scarcely any such a volume of business as that indicated in the post 
 office increase, because the post office increase in the last generation 
 has been vastly faster than the commerce. 
 
 The Chairman. But have you no data to submit in reference to the 
 business ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. No; I have not at the moment that data at hand. 
 Now, there is an overproduction of the second-class matter, as I 
 look upon it, because we have gone to the limit in the production of 
 that. We are producing more than all the other nations of the globe 
 aggregated. In the production of books — and I am a bookseller, and 
 probably that is where my selfish, but I hope honest, interest comes 
 into the question — this country is producing not one-quarter of the 
 number of books and pamphlets permitted the inhabitants per mil- 
 lion per annum by such civilized nations as France, Great Britain, 
 Japan, and Germany. Japan produces more than three to our one. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Books? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Books, yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I thought we were printing too many now? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. That is, of course, as a person chooses to think, and 
 your opinion is just as good as mine. But, thank God, they are not all 
 
PARCEL POST. 793 
 
 the "best sellers.'' There are good books, and then we have the 
 medium books and the bad books, and then we get the " best sellers," 
 and I am afraid you base your opinion, Senator, on the " best sellers " 
 in part. 
 
 Senator Burs-row. On those I see on the shelves, mostly. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. The " best sellers " I call fiction, not literature. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you include in your statement the fiction? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I do for this reason, that I am including the new, 
 constructive, or creative thought. 
 
 Senator Bristow. In order that I may understand this ; do you say 
 that Japan prints three times as many books per million inhabitants 
 per annum as we do. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Yes ; of new or creative thought. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You made the statement as to books. Now you 
 are estimating books on constructive thought. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I mean by that, not reprints of old editions. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They may be better books, the old editions, and 
 I do not see the value of your argument. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Isn't the evidence of the stimulating character of 
 the literature that is being read susceptible in the new thought that 
 comes forth, rather than in the distribution of the literature? 
 
 Senator Bristow. I do not think it is a fair comparison. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Cowper says, " Knowledge and wisdom, far from 
 being one have ofttimes no connection." 
 
 Senator Bristow. If you will pardon me, I want here to make this 
 inquiry; you say Japan is printing three times as many books, per 
 million in population as we are, excluding the reprinting of the old 
 editions? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. That I do not know so much about. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Japan has not the old editions ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. She has of her own; she has a literature. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, then, of course, she would be printing these 
 books that are translated in her language, the English and German 
 books. It would be entirely unfair, it seems to me, to say that Japan 
 is printing three times as many books as we are if you do not take 
 into consideration these standard authors, which are in every library 
 and which are printed by the million in the United States and sold 
 by the booksellers. . 
 
 Mr. Burrows. We must, each of us, do our best to see m the light 
 
 given to us. . 
 
 The Chairman. For you to make your point, or the point that I 
 assume you are going to attempt to make, it is necessary for you to 
 clearly designate the classification; that is, what you mean by books. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. That is why I inserted that, so that I should not do 
 anything unfair in the way of misleading in the statistics that I chose 
 and wished to place before you for your consideration. Now, coming 
 to the rest of the nations, where do you suppose we find Russia and 
 the United States? In the last estimate obtained by the " Publishers' 
 Weekly," I think it was the issue of January 4, 1904, Russia was 
 publishing 65 books and pamphlets per million inhabitants per an- 
 num for the preceding year, according to the experts of the world on 
 book publication, and the United States 81, and we had to seek poor, 
 benighted Spain to find the only one of the civilized countries of the 
 globe that print few books per million inhabitants than we do. 
 
794 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What do you mean now by books ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I mean the new books; the new constructive 
 thought. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What are those ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. They are in every department of literature. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You say, " new books ; " what is a new book ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. A new book is one that appears for the first time. 
 For instance, the greatest book to my notion for the last 25 years m 
 thought is Dr. Thompson's; a book upon the body, published by 
 Dodds, Mead & Co., " Brain Personality." 
 
 The Chairman. Do you figure on novels and everything of that 
 kind — all books ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Yes ; I am sorry to have to figure on them. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But you are only referring to books that are 
 printed for the first time, in any country ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. A new book printed for the first time. Now, take a 
 new book published by that great Eussian writer, Dostoievski ; he was 
 a genius and one of the greatest geniuses the world ever saw, and still 
 his books, " Crime and punishment," would figure with your— — 
 
 Senator Bristow. Published, but would not figure in reprint. It 
 seems to me, if these statistics are of any value to us, that we ought 
 to have the number of books printed in the United States of all 
 kinds and character. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. That I am unable to give you at the present moment. 
 I doubt if the statistics are available. 
 
 The Chairman. And the total number printed in these other coun- 
 tries, I agree with you, Senator Bristow. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I think all that we could do would be to alter the 
 proposition somewhat slightly. Now, due to this second-class mail 
 matter act and the enormous growth of the second-class mail, this 
 situation has come about as I see it. For example, if you give a 
 bonus of $150 a ton oil every steel rail the rolling mill companies of 
 the country chose to turn out, you would find that the products would 
 be increased; they would run three shifts, nights, days, and Sundays, 
 and every day in the year, holidays included, getting out steel rails. 
 And now the publishers and producers of second-class mail have been 
 equally busy turning out dailies, weeklies, quarterlies, monthly maga-' 
 zines, etc. 
 
 The Chairman. At the expense of good reading, according to your 
 viewpoint, as represented in the standard books? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. That is it, exactly. Where in 1875 there were not 
 published 10,000,000 copies per annum of the cheap magazines, to- 
 day there are more than 6.000,000,000 per annum of them published. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you consider the circulation of these maga- 
 zines as detrimental to-day? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Many of them very much so. We have displaced 
 good reading with the 10-minute or the 20-minute magazine article. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Are there more books of all character now — I 
 mean standard literature, Shakespeare, Milton, Dickens, and Brown- 
 ing and all of the standard publications — are there more or less 
 books of all character and kind sold now per million population in 
 the United States than there were 50 years ago? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Let me read you this quotation ? 
 Senator Bristow. Can you answer +he question? 
 
PARCEL POST. 795 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I think in proportion very much fewer. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Have you any data in regard to that ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I have this data from the official organ of the book- 
 sellers, the " Publishers' Weekly." It stands at the head of the liter- 
 ary publications connected with the publication of books. It is the 
 semiofficial organ of the book-seller, and has been regarded as of the 
 very highest class. On January 30, 1904, they made this remark: 
 " The great decrease in all the more serious departments of litera- 
 ture, as well as in some of the lighter ones, is a curious and unex- 
 plainable condition of our book production. Scientific and philo- 
 sophical writing are as conspicuous through absence as are the simply 
 amusing books." 
 
 Senator Bristow. But still that refers only to scientific literature. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. It says in all the more serious departments of litera- 
 ture, as well as in some of the lighter ones, scientific and philo- 
 sophical writings are as conspicuous through their absence as are the 
 simply amusing books. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But that does not answer the question. What 
 I would like, if it is available, is a statement as to the number of 
 books issued by American presses and sold now per million population 
 as compared with what were sold 50 years ago. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. That I can not give you. But I can give you an 
 implication by which you can judge. There were in the United 
 States when that law was passed between three and four thousand 
 
 The Chairman. Which law? Just specify. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Excuse me. When the first pound rate was passed 
 on the 23d of June, 1874, there were in the United States about 3,000 
 or 4,000 booksellers carrying good stocks of books, the number varying 
 a little according to who would fix the estimate, and who would be 
 called a bookseller and who would not. How many are there to-day ? 
 Many times we find that one or two or three booksellers have none 
 to-day. 
 
 The Chairman. But books are sold, are they not, in conjunction 
 with other business? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Not but in a very minor way. The point I want 
 to make is that where there were three to four thousand booksellers 
 35 years ago, to-day there are from 1,000 to 1,500 or so of booksellers. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If you refer to those who are exclusive book- 
 sellers, why I can see that possibly the statistics would be accurate ; 
 but you take the town in which I live; 25 years ago there was a book 
 store there, now that man is selling everything. There are four 
 other establishments and any one of them have more books than he 
 had 25 years ago, but they are drug stores. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. What town is that ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Salina, Kans. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I was stationed at Fort Riley, Kans., after I gradu- 
 ated from West Point. It was my first post and at that time Junc- 
 tion City had a pretty good bookstore. The number of department 
 stores that have good book departments to-day is smaller than it was 
 30 years ago. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What I would like to have is the number of 
 books printed now per million population and the number printed 
 per million population 50 years ago. Of course, I would hesitate to 
 
796 PABCEL POST. 
 
 differ with your judgment on a matter of that kind, but I believe 
 there are ten books circulated now where there was one 50 years ago. 
 
 The Chairman. Per inhabitant? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Per inhabitant ; yes. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Is not that largely due to difference in the class 
 of books ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I can simply say this, that I have heard it remarked 
 by customers — and while I am not in touch with the retail trade every 
 day, or every week or every month, yet I do keep in touch in other 
 ways — book readers have disappeared in the United States. They 
 have in Cleveland, one of the best book-loving towns in the country. 
 There is no book-loving book buyer such as there was 35, 40, or 50 
 years ago. 
 
 The Chairman. You think the extension of the libraries has done 
 that? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. To whom can you sell a drink of whisky ? Can you 
 sell a drink of whisky to a man who has never taken one ? You will 
 never get the man who has not gotten started in the library to buying 
 familiar books, and you will never get the man to reading books who 
 has been filled up with the candy or literature in the shape of the 5, 
 10, and 20-minute or half-hour magazine articles. 
 
 Senator Bristow. There are probably 20 college graduates in the 
 United States now to where there was one a century ago. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. But the population has been multiplied by 20 too? 
 
 The Chairman. Probably tenfold as many per population as there 
 were a century ago. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I would doubt that. 
 
 The Chairman. Statistics will show that. 
 
 Senator Briggs. My answer to that would be that the college grad- 
 uate of 20 or 30 years ago is different from the college graduate now. 
 They did not have courses in the big universities as they have now. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you not think that this tremendous develop- 
 ment in the schools and colleges has created a desire for literature ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. As I see the matter the taste for good reading has 
 disappeared in the country and I know it has in such a community as 
 Cleveland. 
 
 The Chairman. And you attribute that to the rates on second class 
 mail matter? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Yes, sir ; and I am sorry to see it, and to them it is 
 in part, and quite a part, that my unselfish, and my honest and hon- 
 orable selfish interests have led me around to the point where I am 
 opposed to any extension of the parcel post service for the reason, 
 first, we have had that one entering wedge of the second-class mail 
 matter act that started with 40,000,000 pounds and within my book- 
 sellers-business lifetime has increased that output to more than 
 900,000,000 pounds, and it is still growing, and I find by statistics 
 that we are below in the production of books of new creative, construc- 
 tive thought of any one of the civilized nations of the globe, except 
 Spain. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You can go down here to a bookstore in town 
 and look at the current saleable books — they usually sell for $1.25 
 or $1.50 — and the literature in one of those books 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Pardon me, that is a novel. I do not call a novel 
 a book, except as I must. It is a book in a sense, if you will pardon 
 me, but I count a novel as " book candy." I call a book of travel a 
 
PARCEL POST. 797 
 
 book, of new scientific constructive thought a book, biography or 
 history and belles-lettres, or poetry even, a book, but I call a novel 
 "literary candy." 
 
 The Chairman. But in the statement that you have made before 
 the committee, do you have that distinction in your own mind? You 
 do not estimate novels at all in your calculation? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I do in this calculation, but I scarcely dignify them 
 by calling them books. 
 
 The Chairman. But the reader would be confused. 
 
 Senator Beistow. I think the magazines that I get, the Saturday 
 Evening Post, the World of To-day, World's Work, and the Review 
 of Eeviews, have a good deal better literature than three-fourths of 
 the books I see on the shelves. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. There were 3,860 new < periodicals begun in the 
 United States last year under the influence of this town-rate-of-post- 
 age law. It cost over 12 cents a pound for every pound that was 
 handled, on the average. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How much does it cost them to handle the books? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I do not know. There is not such an awful number 
 of books that go by mail. I doubt if they get hold of it. I should 
 imagine that it cost the same as it does for merchandise. Now, there 
 were 3,860 new periodicals begun their career last year — thank the 
 good Lord for a little bit of blessing, 1,390 and some of them died 
 aborning. There was a death rate well up to the new ones that 
 started. A year before it was 1,390 that died, and the year before 
 that it was 3,608 ; the year before that 3,924; and the vear before that 
 over 4,000. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the largest circulation of any magazine 
 outside of the United States? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. So far as I know — there are daily papers published, 
 which, however, do not get mail circulation to that extent — I think 
 the biggest daily paper circulation in Paris — that is purely from 
 memory and I may be entirely wrong — is the Figaro or Le Tempts 
 that has the biggest circulation there; I think I have heard 2,000,000, 
 and in London there are big publications that have a million circula- 
 tion. One of our popular magazines could not start with a hundred 
 thousand circulation and pull whole out of the game. By the opera- 
 tion of the second-class mail matter law there has been a monopoly 
 created in this production. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you explain how a monopoly ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. The middle man can not live, because when that 
 law was passed the 75-cent and 35-cent magazines began at once to 
 enlarge their borders. That was the day when the Century Co. was 
 making money — far more than they are doing to-day. Speedily some- 
 body saw that a 25-cent magazine would get a bigger circulation 
 than a 30-cent one. He made one, and he took the cream off of the 
 higher-up-man's pint of milk. Between the two of them they took 
 the cream off the booksellers' can of milk. Then came the 10-cent 
 ones, and the Saturday Evening Post at 5 cents. It is not a 5-cent 
 article; it is a 25-cent article, and the publisher is informed that if he 
 will put a rate of 5 cents upon it he can convert an output of nearly 
 100,000 a week into nearly 2,000,000, and thus charging only 5 cents 
 and thus getting the circulation, he turns around to the advertiser, 
 and you know what he does to him is good and plenty. 
 
798 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not see where you prove your statement of 
 monopoly, when there are 28,000 magazines still living. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. He follows the line of getting circulation first and 
 foremost, building that up, you see, then meeting the advertiser. 
 You know the rates for a full page each issue of the Saturday Even- 
 ing Post is $3,600. There will be carried from $75,000 to $200,000 
 worth of advertising in each and every issue of the Saturday Evening 
 Post, and I think it has gone considerably beyond that. When Mr. 
 Curtis started the Saturday Evening Post he put up with his subordi- 
 nates $1,000,000. He made more than a million and a quarter dollars' 
 profit last year on the Saturday Evening Post and the Ladies Home 
 Journal. He made it just this way; he advanced his prices on adver- 
 tising. And he is carrying advertising of more than $6,000,000 per 
 annum in those two publications — the Ladies Home Journal and the 
 Saturday Evening Post. His postage was about $300,000, and if my 
 guess, and it is purely a Yankee guess, is correct, about one-half of 
 his product is 
 
 The Chairman. I do not think we should insert in the record 
 guesses, Mr. Burrows ; I think we ought to have facts. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. A good Yankee guess is sometimes better than any- 
 thing else. We will call it an estimate, if you will kindly permit. 
 His postage was $300,000 and it cost the Government to handle his 
 output that went by mail two and three-quarter millionsof dollars 
 
 The Chairman. How long, Mr. Burrows, will you require to com- 
 plete the submission of your views before the committee ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I will try to be through by 6 o'clock. 
 
 The Chairman. It is necessary for us to adjourn at 6 o'clock. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Now, he made his million and a quarter of profit off 
 the Saturday Evening Post and the Ladies Home Journal last year 
 by the Government giving him postal service for the receiving, han- 
 dling, and distributing of his products, especially the distributing, 
 for $300,000 more or less, according as the amount was more or less, 
 when it cost the Government 9 or 10 times that much, as I figure it, 
 12 times as much. He gets a part of that from the people in the price 
 of the magazine, then he takes the advertiser and pulls a profit on 
 the entire amount out of him, and the advertiser has got to go with 
 him, because the advertiser can not get that circulation direct so 
 cheaply. The Government penalizes him in the postage rate upon 
 circular literature by more than five times in some instances. My 
 reason for being opposed to the carriage of parcels in the postal 
 service, or in the extension of it, in getting it so that it will produce 
 results somewhat along foreign lines, is because of the effect of this 
 entering wedge in the second-class mail matter. 
 
 The Chairman. What was the growth of the first-class mail matter 
 during that period ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. The growth of the first-class mail matter during 
 that period I can not tell you exactly, but I could tell you more 
 nearly for a number of years back. The second class has grown more 
 rapidly. There is another entering wedge, that is the British Postal 
 Telegraph Service. There is another one in our rural free delivery 
 and another in the parcel-post service of Great Britain, because that 
 is losing money as I see it; absolutely losing and losing heavily. 
 
 The Chairman. As you see it ? * 
 
 Mr. Burrows. As I see it. 
 
PARCEL POST. 799 
 
 The Chairman. According to the Government itself, which should 
 be the best judge of that and the best authority, they are not ; and 
 that is the best authority, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I scarcely think so for the reason that I doubt their 
 frankness. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You think the English Government would not 
 present the facts correctly. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. The facts presented I think we can draw certain 
 conclusions from. Here is the condition regarding the English par- 
 cel-post service. When they started that service, which was, I be- 
 lieve, in August, 1883, was it not, Senator ? The first year they kept 
 a record so carefully that if a man was working in two different de- 
 partments, part of the time on letter mail and part of the time on 
 parcel mail, they subdivided the expense account. They handled 
 every item of expense with extreme care. Now, when they got to the 
 end of the year — the predictions had been made freely in the House 
 of Parliament that it would be profitable — to their great surprise 
 they found there was a very big deficit. 
 
 The Chairman. When was the deficit? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. About the time that Foster died, in November, 
 1884. It was the first year of its installation. 
 
 The Chairman. The first year of its installation you say the parcel 
 post showed a deficit ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. A big deficit ; and they kept the expenses most care- 
 fully. That, I think, would be for the year ending March 31, 1884. 
 The next year the deficit had more than doubled. Then they said 
 bookkeeping is expensive and it was awkward to make a showdown. 
 Since then you can not find in the number of reports of the postmaster 
 general of that country the statistics, but you can find the number of 
 parcels carried last year. Now, they got for their total revenue last 
 year £2,371.000, of which, as you know, under the law 55 per cent of 
 the receipts from steam-road-borne parcels goes to the railway com- 
 pany for its service, the Government retaining all upon parcels not 
 railroad-borne. So that the Government itself got a little more than 
 one-half of the £2,371,000. It g-ot £1,285,000 and the railroads got 
 £1,085,000. In other words, they got £1,285,000 for handling their 
 end of the handling and distributing of 118.000,000 parcels. Why, 
 less than 5 cents a parcel, I believe, it would figure. Absolutely, if 
 they handled the business without a loss of $20,000,000, they did it 
 economically, and they could make money on it if anybody could. 
 
 The Chairman. Why? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. For this reason : The density of population and the 
 shortness of hauls — the average haul. The average haul, I think, is 
 estimated at about 41 miles for her parcels. 
 
 The Chairman. Why do you take figures on that point as authentic 
 and disregard them in the other case ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I do not mean to. 
 
 The Chairman. You say the average haul is 41 miles on a parcel, 
 and yet you doubt their statement, if you are cognizant of the fact 
 they made the statement, that parcel-post service is self-supporting? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. They draw the conclusion. They can not say 
 whether it is self-supporting or not. 
 
 The Chairman. They might make their deductions on the averages, 
 etc. ; but if the Government gives out a statement that such and such 
 is the case, you would feel that in view of 
 
800 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. If they made a definite statement in number, ] 
 would believe it. If they made a statement from that number, I 
 would reserve my right to draw that conclusion. That 5-cent per 
 parcel can not possibly pay the expenses of the rate. It will not pay 
 in Cleveland. We can not get a delivery man to take in Cleveland 
 for 10 cents a parcel, or at least not less than that, and then he is 
 grumbling and groaning all the time because he is not getting bread 
 and butter out of the job. Now, England has 50,000 square miles of 
 territory and a density of population of 558 to the square mile. You 
 will be able to receive 550 parcels in London and lug them down in 
 the country 41 miles and distribute them at that small charge, but 
 begin in the United States and where are you going to land ? Imagine 
 that we are locking at a map of the United States. Suppose this wall 
 to be a map of the United States. In this little seventh of the terri- 
 tory, east of the Mississippi and north of the Ohio and the Potomac, 
 there are 435,000 square miles, in all about one-seventh of the entire 
 country. It had 100 inhabitants to the square mile 10 years ago. 
 
 You go out here beyond the Mississippi or beyond the Missouri, 
 800,000 square miles of territory with 12,000,000 people. The goods 
 are made up here and distribution will take place out there. My 
 State of Maine had 661,000 in 1890; it increased about 5 or 6 per cent 
 in 1900 and about 9 or 10 per cent in 20 years. Here is Oklahoma 
 out here increasing 600 per cent in 20 years. In Maine stocks of 
 goods existed, and little merchants ready to do the distribution work 
 economically and not get very rich out of doing it. Out here every 
 man with a profitable job and tilling the soil, and they will not divert 
 themselves very readily to distribution of goods and the establish- 
 ment of stocks. If we get a parcel post established in this country 
 shall we have a 41-mile length of haul, or 541, or 1,041 miles? Never! 
 It will be 1,541 for the average haul or an enormous multiple upon 
 the British average haul. And not only so, but when you get 373 
 parcels carried from London clown in the country and distributed 
 within one square mile of territory you have condensation or com- 
 pression of the service; you are able to do it economically, but you 
 go to Oklahoma with a density of population of 1 to the square mile, 
 or your own State (Oregon), with 7 or 9 to the square mile; Wash- 
 ington, 10 to the square mile; California with 12 to 15, and Texas 
 about 15, why, it is a different problem. In the State of Texas there 
 are 265,000 square miles; Germany has 208,000 square miles and a 
 population of about 60,000,000 people, while the State of Texas has 
 about 3,000,000 people. Gentlemen, for heaven's Bake, if you love 
 your country take the attitude of the man that said, " For the Lord's 
 sake, good Lord, if you can not help me, do not help the bear." Help 
 the merchants in the country if you can, but don't help the mail-order 
 houses, because if you do here is what will take place 
 
 The Chairman. What per cent of the mail-order house business is 
 done through the mails? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. That I will give you later, but I do not think that 
 is quite so pertinent. 
 
 The Chairman. Transportation Avill always seek the cheapest cost, 
 will it not ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Yes ; but while that question is apparently pertinent, 
 in another sense it is not. 
 
PARCEL POST. 801 
 
 Senator Bristow. But it seems to me, referring to Senator Bourne's 
 question, you are arraigning this postal system in saying that the 
 mail-order house, in its wonderful development, is the result of the 
 second-class rates of postage, and that a parcel post would help the 
 mail-order house. Now, Senator Bourne asked how much of the busi- 
 ness of the mail-order houses is done through the mails. 
 
 Mr. Buekows. I understand ; not but a small part ; I do not know 
 just how you interpret that, but I think that is not a factor in the 
 matter. 
 
 The Chairman. The cost of transportation is the main factor, is 
 it not ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Yes; and still all the more they are going to be 
 helped by a parcel post. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The mail-order houses use the freight very much 
 more than any other kind of transportation, because it is cheaper. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. They use the freight because they use personal soli- 
 citation, and they will use that in both freight and parcel post if they 
 get it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If they do not use the mail now, but use freight, 
 and there is no possibility of the mails ever becoming as cheap as 
 freight, I do not see wherein this is in the interests of the mail-order 
 houses especially. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. It is in their interest in its result. Here is what 
 seems to me to be the condition that is going to arise. They can 
 not send a carload of catalogues into a single State without getting 
 enormous business out of them. They have an added advantage 
 when they get a parcel post carriage inaugurated in the country. 
 Their trade will then go forward by leaps and bounds. 
 
 Senator Bristow. When the farmer gets a catalogue and reads it 
 over, if he concludes to order by mail he would not go around and 
 solicit a hundred pounds of this stuff from his friends and beg and 
 solicit as he does now. And is not there a possibility that it would 
 have a detrimental influence instead of a beneficial one ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. No ; if you will pardon me, for this reason ; the mail- 
 order house will probably establish in every little rural free delivery 
 route in the country some woman who will work for next to nothing, 
 and be delighted to do it, as their solicitor. They will make freight 
 rates to that distribution point, the initiatory point of that route. 
 They can make freight rates daily to practically every one of those 
 routes in the United States, or weekly at least. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The country merchant would have exactly the 
 same opportunity? 
 
 Mr. Burrows." He can not do what they do, this enormous volume 
 of advertising, and that enormous volume of advertising that they 
 do is not selling quality goods. In one instance in Connecticut it 
 was tested and a retailer was able to duplicate a $10 Larkin special 
 shipmen for $6.44, as I remember. 
 
 The Chairman. That is under present conditions? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Under present conditions, and so far as you gentle- 
 men care to interest yourselves in that function of the matter I think 
 you had better not help the bear. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How is it helping? The mail-order house now 
 sends by freight, they will continue to do that as long as freight is 
 cheaper than mail and it will always be cheaper. Now he sends to 
 his agent — you say he will have an agent there 
 
802 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Bureoavs. But an increase of that business will make ship- 
 ments to practically every initiating point in the country? 
 
 Senator Bbistow. If they can, but how does a parcel post affect 
 the country merchant ? He is there now as the agent. He sells these 
 good's. The agent is simply a competitor of his. Both will have the 
 same opportunity to get at the people and sell the goods. 
 
 Senator Beiggs. I do not quite agree with you there, for the country 
 merchant bu3's from various people, and the agent of Sears, Roe- 
 buck & Co. bu3 r s from them alone, the shipment comes from one party 
 alone. 
 
 The Chairman. We have had probably 40 witnesses before this 
 committee representing country merchants and various organiza- 
 tions. Every one has stated that the country merchant can sell 
 cheaper than the mail-order house and sell better goods. 
 
 Mr. Buerows. The psychology of advertising, Senator, works out 
 in this way: The big enormous house, the one that is doing it in a 
 grand wholesale way, can try out an advertisement, find that it is 
 not started quite right, and try it out again in a little community, 
 and improve it each time. Finally, when they get that advertisement 
 right it is a puller. And then they use it everywhere and they 
 can try such experiments in petto, while the little country merchant 
 can not possibly do it. To show what is thought on the stock ex- 
 change, in the hearings before the House committee of June, 1911, 1 
 quoted the following from a clipping, taken, I think, from the Chi- 
 cago Record-Herald : 
 
 PAKOEL POST TO HELP SEAKS, ROEBUCK STOCK. 
 
 The earnings of Sears, Roebuck & Co. for June showed a decrease of 6 per 
 cent compared with June, 1910. July is likely to show about the same result. 
 For six months ended June 30 there was a decrease in the net. However, an 
 important phase in the business of this organization may prove to be in the 
 success or failure of the parcel-post bill pending in Congress. Private advices 
 from Washington say the measure is quite sure to pass at the next session. If 
 this proves true it will be of an immense advantage to the Sears, Roebuck 
 people. 
 
 The Chairman. I saw in the Boston News Bureau, I think it was, 
 in a recent issue that Sears, Roebuck & Co. had just had the 
 heaviest month's business in their whole history. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You are reading now, Mr. Burrows, from your 
 testimony before the House committee? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. From my testimony before the House committee, 
 and that was from a newspaper article. I read the exact language. 
 Now, may I read two articles from those hearings? 
 
 The Chairman. We do not want to fill both records with the 
 same material any further than is necessary to carry on your chain 
 of thought. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I want to call your attention kindly to a quotation 
 of an advertisement that appeared in the Detroit Free Press of the 
 Postal Progress League: 
 
 Solicitors ivanted. — To obtain signatures to petitions asking Congress to enact 
 a parcel-post law; state experience and references. Postal Progress League, 
 125 East Twenty-third Street, New York. 
 
 And I further want to call your attention to this : It is frequently 
 stated that Sears, Roebuck & Co. and the mail-order houses want 
 
PARCEL POST. 803 
 
 parcel post. They can not help wanting it, as I see it, and this is 
 just to the point, A friend of mine, whose name I can not give but 
 who is connected with the One-Cent Letter Postage Association, 
 when in Chicago went to Sears, Roebuck & Co. soliciting them for 
 a subscription to the One-Cent Letter Postage Association work. 
 He called on Mr. Rosenwald, the president of Sears, Roebuck & Co., 
 and spoke to him in regard to the One-Cent Letter Postage Asso- 
 ciation. He said: 
 
 I called on Mr. Rosenwald, president of the Sears, Roebuck Co., and spoke 
 to him in regard to our association, and lie said that they were not interested 
 in 1-cent letter postage, but were strongly in favor of parcel post. Realizing 
 how important this statement was, I went back at him with the question: 
 " Tou favor parcel post, do you?" His reply was: "Yes; we have never con- 
 tributed 1 cent to the campaign, but we favor it." 
 
 The Chairman. I do not see how we can put this in the record 
 without getting the name of the man who is your authority for the 
 statement. I decline to put anything in the record unless you give 
 us the authority. I do not see how your statement can have any 
 weight. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Perhaps you are deciding it quite right. I am not 
 at liberty to give the name. It would be a discourtesy to him. I 
 would prefer to have it omitted. 
 
 The Chairman. And besides, I was in Chicago recently, and I 
 was advised there by a gentleman connected with the Post Office 
 Department that Sears, Roebuck & Co. were opposed to the parcel 
 post because the present conditions were satisfactory to them. 
 
 Mr. Burroavs. Ward said : " It would be a blamed sight better for 
 a lot of people to know less than to know a lot that wasn't .so." 
 
 The Chairman. That is a matter of opinion; your opinion and 
 his opinion. We have to take all those things into consideration, 
 Mr. Burrows. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I certainly am grateful to you gentlemen fvr lis- 
 tening so patiently to a man who has never had the honor of ap- 
 pearing before the committee before. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I would like to get your judgment on this point, 
 if I can. The mail-order house is now using freight for the great 
 bulk of its business, because it is cheap. Now, there is no one who 
 contemplates a postal rate anything like as cheap as the freight rate. 
 Do you not believe that the mail-order houses will continue to use 
 the freight as they do now? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Yes; and the parcel-post law will enable them to 
 use it five times as much. 
 
 Senator Bristow. In what way? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Because they can then daily put up these little mail 
 packets into a freight package, starting from Chicago to a certain 
 point, and then use the parcel post for the rest of the way. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They would have an agent there? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. A woman, probably. 
 
 The Chairman. Would they trust them ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. They do not have to; their goods are paid for in 
 advance. 
 
 The Chairman. Do they not do that now? Is it not one of the 
 causes of their success — cheap transportation by the assembling of 
 
804 PAECBL POST. 
 
 their goods and having every customer, in effect, an agent for them, 
 in order to get the cheaper rates? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. The way in which they have made their success is 
 because they are able to do advertising in a wholesale way that gives 
 them a volume of it at a fraction of the cost. There is where it 
 seems to me they are going ahead. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Now, they would have the agent here in this 
 community and that agent would handle their business and distribute 
 it locally; that is what you think they would do, is it not? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, the country merchant there gets exactly 
 the same rate for distribution from that point as the agent does. 
 Wherein does the agent have an advantage, as far as the postal 
 facility goes? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Because the agent, a woman or a man, has back 
 of her this united volume of advertising in the large catalogues, and 
 the country merchant can not by any earthly possibility carry any 
 such attractive outfit. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, present conditions are these, as I under- 
 stand it, instead of having an agent there to mail these out on the 
 rural route the agent is the farmer who solicits from his neighbors, 
 and they get up an order of a hundred pounds ; the goods arrive and 
 the one that goes into town first after the package comes brings it 
 out and it is distributed. Now, how can a rural parcel-post delivery 
 give him any advantage over that which he now has? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Why, they can make freight shipments daily in- 
 stead of waiting, perhaps, a fortnight to do it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. He has to have the orders; everything comes 
 by order. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. To be sure ; but he will get a volume of orders. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How does a parcel post give any advantage? 
 I can not see, because the local merchant has the rate. There is an 
 agent in the community where it is mailed that has to mail it out. 
 Now, it is the farmer that is the agent himself, and he goes in and 
 brings it out without any expense at all. 
 
 The Chairman. It is an equal opportunity to everybody ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Yes; but the local dealer can not get that amount 
 of advertising into the hands of those customers. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But that is due to the modern facilities for 
 advertising. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. It is due to the fact that advertising can be given 
 to the men who buy in large volume under the second-class mail 
 matter as operated to-day. It can be given to him at a cheaper rate. 
 
 The Chairman. A catalogue goes under third class, does it not? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Yes; but an advertisement that will pull an order 
 will not. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you not think it is the catalogue itself, rather 
 than the advertisement in the magazines that makes the union be- 
 tween the mail-order house and the consumer ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. As a matter of fact, Mr. Burrows, do not the 
 large majority of the advertisements in the magazines say, " Secure 
 at your dealers " — or "Ask your dealer for " ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Some do, but the mail-order proposition does not. 
 
PARCEL POST. 805 
 
 Senator Bristow. But the great majority of the advertisements in 
 the magazines are advertisements for the dealers more than for the 
 mail-order houses? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. The mail-order house, for that matter, goes right 
 over the heads of even manufacturers and starts its own manufactur- 
 ing after a short time. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But the catalogue is the real advertising busi- 
 ness of the mail-order house ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. But to get the catalogues to those people you have 
 to advertise them. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do they not do that by correspondence? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. In all sorts of ways. You see Comfort, published 
 in Augusta, Me., for instance, one million and a quarter published 
 there per annum; our friend Lewis, against whom the Government 
 recently issued a fraud order, sent out more than 600,000 catalogues 
 a month. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I was speaking of the standard magazines, of 
 course. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. They do not carry it. It is a different proposition, 
 but we have a dozen of those high-grade standard magazines, such 
 as you mentioned a short time ago, and then we have the thousands 
 of cheaper riffraff and scum. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you imagine they have much influence in the 
 way of creating customers for the advertisers? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. They have influence enough to get the advertise- 
 ments. 
 
 The Chairman. Then why do they keep going to the wall, as you 
 have stated? You have a death rate of over 1,300 annually. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Their success, every one of them that meets with a 
 success, is so prominent an example that it attracts any amount of 
 new ones. 
 
 The Chairman. I fail to get your point that you mentioned a while 
 ago about the creation of a monopoly for magazines under the second- 
 class mail rates, when, according to your own statement, there were 
 some 28,000 magazines in existence. I do not see where you get your 
 monopolistic feature. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Those little ones do fail completely. I do not mean 
 28,000 magazines; it is 28,000 periodicals which take advantage of 
 the second-class mail rate; all this is made up of the numbers that 
 appear in the dailies, weeklies, semimonthlies, and monthlies. 
 
 The Chairman. Nothing would restrain you or anybody else from 
 going into competition if you had the money and the ability to carry 
 it out, would it ? I mean there is nothing monopolistic about second- 
 class mail rates. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Nothing in theory ; in practice there is. The instant 
 a new one goes into the field, unless he is wonderfully ingenious in 
 getting up some new desire, he has got to go against those that are 
 already in existence in the field. To illustrate, there are in the United 
 States 86 different banking periodicals. Last winter I went into a 
 prominent banking office and I saw several of these banking periodi- 
 cals, and I said, ""For goodness sake, how many of those things are 
 there ? " He said, " I do not know, but I think 50 or more." I 
 found 86. 
 
 The Chairman. Would he take them all, that banker ? 
 
806 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. They will send free anything you will permit them 
 to. He did not subscribe for them and pay one or two or three dollars 
 a year. ' I said, " How many of those 86 are needed ? " He said, 
 " Three, possibly." Suppose there are six of them needed ; there are 
 printed in the United States to-day 86 of those periodicals. I said, 
 " What are the remainder ? " He said, " They are leg pullers." In 
 other words, to-day if a man is manufacturing a check cutter, or 
 something that should be exploited in a finacial periodical, he can not 
 get full publicity, he can not afford to advertise in every one of 
 those 86 mediums. Were the chilling frost of an advance in rates 
 put upon these publications until they were carried up to the level of 
 the rest of the service, nine-tenths of these banking periodicals would 
 pass out of existence. We would then have perhaps a dozen of them, 
 or ten of them, or six worth living. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That would be more like a monopoly than the 
 present condition. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Then the man who wants to advertise the check 
 cutter can go into those six remaining publications. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I can not see where there is a monopoly now. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. They may charge him twice the price they do at 
 present per page. It will be an easier monopoly to break, a less ex- 
 clusive circle ; that is what I mean. That monopoly of six would be 
 easier to meet. 
 
 The Chairman. You would require more capital, for your cost of 
 transportation would be greater. I do not think you have proved 
 your contention as to the monopolistic feature. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Pardon me, right here is where I see the logic of it. 
 It would be my own capital ; the man who is going into it to-day has 
 got to go against capital furnished by the Government. 
 
 The Chairman. You have an equal opportunity. Do not misunder- 
 stand me and say that I am defending it, because I have not taken up 
 the second-class business at all; I am not expressing any opinion at 
 all until the matter comes before the committee, but you have failed, 
 to my mind, absolutely to prove your statement of the monopolistic 
 feature of the second-class mail matter. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I suspect that that is due to my inability to make 
 myself clear. I have been am importer of intellectual thought for 
 all these years, and I have never been an exporter, and my mental 
 quality is not so well balanced as you gentlemen who have had so 
 much experience in that direction. I see the point, and I see just what 
 I have in mind and fail to make it clear to you, but to me it is per- 
 fectly clear. I am afraid I shall have to let you be the analyst of 
 the monopoly question in your own way, as time is pressing. As I 
 see it, it works out the other way. Those fellows are helped to-day, 
 really, by the Government standing a lot of the expense. Here is a 
 quotation from the report of Postmaster General Charles Emory 
 Smith, dated November 25, 1901, for the fiscal vear ending June 30, 
 1901: * 
 
 The statement will probably be surprising that in the case of hundreds of such 
 publications wherever the publisher spends $1,000 in his venture the Govern- 
 ment spends not less than $2,000 in carrying on that publisher's business. As- 
 tonishing as this statement, it is easily made plain. As already indicated, the 
 kind of publication in question involves very little of the cost of the legitimate 
 newspaper or periodical. It has no news service. Its editorial staff consists of 
 a single hand for scissors and paste pot. The composition and pressworlc, re- 
 
PARCEL, POST. 807 
 
 duced to a single copy or pound, are infinitesimal. The only material expense is 
 the cost of white paper, which runs about 2 cents a pound. That is the 
 publisher's side of the account. 
 
 The Government's side comprises two items. The first is transportation. The 
 entire circulation of these papers is through the mails, and the Government pays 
 for carrying them not less than 5 cents a pound, on which it gets back 1 cent. 
 The second item is handling. It has already been shown that this cost is at 
 least 2 cents a pound. It results, then, that fbr every 3 cents the publisher pays 
 toward the cost of the business the Government pays 6 cents. In other words, 
 the Government is the senior partner on the debit side of the business. It fur- 
 nishes the larger part of the capital, and, while it pays about three-fourths of 
 the expenses, all of the receipts go to the private partner. 
 
 If that man is going up against not only the private capital but the 
 Government aid to that private capital, he has got to have a great deal 
 longer pocketbook than if the rate is advanced, because he does not 
 have near so big a mailing list. To get back to the subject that I 
 wandered away from some time ago ; as I said — and you will take it as 
 my opinion only — if we establish in this country a parcel post, the de- 
 velopment, as I see it, will be enormous for those mail-order houses. 
 There were 792,000 retailers in the United States 10 years ago and 
 38,000 jobbers. To-day there are well up toward a million retailers 
 and jobbers, distributers of merchandise, in the United States. Just 
 as the booksellers of the country have more than half of them passed 
 out of existence under the operation of the second-class mail-order 
 act, so, in my judgment, more than one-half of those retailers and 
 jobbers must pass off the slate. They must pass out of existence, and 
 then the country lawyer, physician, doctor, and the country newspaper 
 that depends upon the local advertising will disappear. You will 
 pardon me, sir, but I believe you published a country newspaper in 
 Salina ? 
 
 Senator Beistow. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Btjerows. Twenty years ago where did you see an advertisement 
 of Pears' soap and of Ivory soap and those things that get world-wide 
 notoriety? They were not advertised then in these monthly period- 
 icals. They were advertised in the large city and in the small city 
 and in the country town papers, where to-day you never see such an 
 advertisement. You have not seen one for five years. They would 
 go back to your country newspapers if you would kill off those 
 monthly periodicals. 
 
 Senator Beistow. There is a practical side to this, though, Mr. 
 Burrows. The truth is that the small paper with which I am con- 
 nected is getting a great deal more advertising now than it has ever 
 gotten before. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. That may be due to your good handling of the 
 business. 
 
 Senator Bristow. No; every other paper is doing the same thing. 
 The volume is three or four times as large as it used to be ; merchants 
 buy more. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. To me it has been brought by the Ohio dailies, the 
 little country dailies, you know, and weeklies in the newspaper associ- 
 ations which I have had the honor of addressing. They said dis- 
 tinctly that they were not as prosperous as they were 20 years ago. 
 Of course, Kansas is a growing State, and that may help you out. 
 
 The Chairman. So is Ohio. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. But not so much as Kansas. 
 
808 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. As a matter of fact, Mr. Burrows, the newspaper 
 business is far more prosperous, and has been during the last five 
 years, in Kansas than it ever was before. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. In Kansas; yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And the population has not increased a great 
 deal in 20 years. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. And in Oklahoma, doubtless ; but I should doubt if 
 it were anything like as prosperous in Maine and the New England 
 States. Now, just here comes in this thought to me: It is very 
 strongly stated, and the statement is very strongly denied, that in 
 foreign countries, like Germany and England, the stocks of goods 
 such as are to be found in an American village of 2,500 inhabitants 
 are not in existence over there. Their stocks of goods are deplorably 
 weak. Now, that is denied. I have had men tell me that they knew 
 it was so and others have denied it. Now, why does not this body 
 have its influence put at work, if you will pardon the suggestion, and 
 establish a commission to get some facts together about this, follow- 
 ing the line of the Senator's own very excellent work there. You 
 need more light on this subject. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you believe in running your Government by a 
 commission? Do you want a bureaucratic form of government? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. No. 
 
 The Chairman. The legislative branch of the Government, I hope, 
 will attend to those duties. They are trying to. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It has been referred to a number of times here 
 about how much more prosperous the American merchant is in the 
 small town than he is abroad. As a matter of fact, he is more pros- 
 perous and carries a larger stock because he has got a constituency, 
 if we may term it such, that buys more stuff. If he had the same 
 population to supply that the German has he would have the same 
 kind of a store. Is not that true ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. If he is not wiped out by the development of the 
 mail-order houses, and they will wipe him out if they get the parcel- 
 post law. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You still make that statement, although you con- 
 cede that the country merchant had exactly the same opportunity to 
 live then that he has now ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I do not concede it. I concede a feature of it. He 
 can not get at the advertising question. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you think the mail-order house is the cause 
 of there being no good merchants in the small towns in Germany ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I think the governmental handling of their service 
 is responsible for that. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Do the mail-order houses supply the place 
 which the local merchant would supply if there was no parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I should judge somebody does. I wish to make a 
 quotation from the Catholic World of June, 1905, describing the 
 operation of the parcel-post system of Germany by a writer who 
 favors its establishment here. He says : 
 
 Anyone who has stood in a German post office and has seen the constant 
 stream of men, women, and children pouring; in through the doors with pack- 
 ages of all descriptions and sizes, and lining up in never-ending rows before 
 half a dozen and more receiving officials; who has watched heavy wagons 
 driving up to the doors and depositing hundreds of packages, and who has 
 noticed the mountains of parcels heaped up in rear rooms of the post office, 
 
PARCEL POST. 809 
 
 can not but have been forcibly struck with the magnitude of the parcel-post 
 system of transportation in Germany. 
 
 They are handling there, I think, about 3 parcels per inhabitant 
 per annum. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Three parcels per annum per individual? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Three parcels per annum per individual. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, suppose we did the same thing — and they 
 have a 12-cent rate for 11 pounds anywhere in the Kingdom — and 
 that we have that very service, three packages per individual — would 
 that destroy all the country stores in the United States if the mail- 
 order house had the advantage of the parcel-post service? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. It would come mighty near it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. In a year? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Not in a year, but in 5 or 10 years. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you think three packages by mail a year to 
 each one of a community would drive out of business the merchants 
 in that community? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I think it would, and easily so. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They must be selling mighty little goods, then, 
 if that would put them out of business. Do you think that local 
 merchants sell more than five packages in four months ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Take some town with nine rural routes going out 
 and 900 families, each of three or four people ; you are getting up to 
 :i pretty good proportion of packages going out every day. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If five packages went every four months to each 
 family in the community, do you think that would destroy the busi- 
 ness of the local merchant? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Now, suppose there are five in a family and three 
 packages to each individual, and a hundred families to a route ; that 
 would be 1,500 parcels per year on the route, and the carrier will be 
 having then something like 4 a day on that basis. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, four packages a day; do you think that 
 would put the merchant out of business? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. A good many of them, because if you take away 
 even 10 or 20 per cent of the trade, you are going to 
 
 Senator Bristow. How many of these packages in Germany are 
 supplied by the local merchants? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Very few, probably; but I do not know. 
 
 Senator Bristow. As a matter of fact, I have been informed — it 
 may not be correct — that most of them are supplied by local mer- 
 chants instead of by distant mail-order houses. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Have they the same kind of mail-order houses 
 that we have? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. No ; they have not. Now, another thing in that con- 
 nection. When the Interstate Commerce Commission began its work 
 there was a very strong agitation for the Government to take over 
 and correct the alleged attempted abuses on the part of the railroads 
 in the transportation of freight and in the rates they made and the 
 discriminations and rebates. What did happen? Fortunately, as I 
 conceive it — another man will draw the other conclusion — very for- 
 tunately, instead of absorbing the business and taking over the rail- 
 roads and making them either Government-owned or Government- 
 run, we hoped for something out of such an instrumentality as the 
 21845— vol 3—12 15 
 
810 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Interstate Commerce Commission, and we got something out of it 
 Now, the express companies are undeniably in need of regulation. 
 
 The Chairman. That is in process, is it not now, with the Inter- 
 state Commerce Commission? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I believe thoroughly that instead of doing as our 
 friend, Mr. Lewis, the Congressman in the House, wishes to do, 
 buying out the express companies, or instead of doing as the Germans 
 have done, running a parcel-post system against them and losing 
 disastrously, as they did last year, I mean with a general system, 
 we should do everything possible to regulate the express companies. 
 We often hear that brilliant remark of one of the biggest mail-order 
 houses in the United States, ex-Postmaster General John Wana- 
 maker, that there were four reasons why we did not have parcel post, 
 namely, the four express companies. He got it right, except that he 
 got it back end to. There are to-day four reasons why we are having 
 an agitation for parcel post, and one of the strongest of those reasons, 
 following that mail-order house desire for it and the farm journals 
 that must stimulate that desire, is the very fact that the express 
 companies are not doing their share in helping the people to get 
 service at reasonable rates, and they are very short-sighted in not 
 doing that. The four reasons why we are getting agitation for parcel 
 post, instead of being read to be the four express companies, should 
 be read to be Messrs. Sears, Roebuck & Co.; Messrs. Montgomery 
 Ward & Co. ; the Larkin Soap Co. ; and Mr. John Wanamaker. 
 
 Senator Briggs. You said that the farm journals were compelled 
 to make this agitation. What do you mean by that ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I mean by the logic of circumstances. These farm 
 journals, of which there are about 30,000,000 copies published in the 
 United States per annum, possibly more than that, live on mail-order 
 advertising, the advertising of small concerns that go directly over 
 the head or the merchant from manufacturer to consumer. If they 
 can induce the Government to take off from the intermediary part of 
 the expense for the transportation and the Government stands that 
 expense 
 
 Senator Bristow. You say they advertise stuff that is furnished by 
 mail-order houses; live stock and farming machinery, the bulk of 
 their advertisements ; now how can a parcel post disturb that ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. It can not; not until we get a more paternalistic 
 method of doing things. If we to-day get enacted into law a general 
 parcel-post service, and I would rather talk of that first, and then, if 
 I get time, talk about a local parcel post afterwards ; if we ever get a 
 general parcel-post service you would have to roof in the whole lower 
 end of New York to take care of the parcels that would be handled 
 out of that city. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You were in England; how many parcels per 
 capita are sent through the mails per annum ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. About two and a half ; that is, roughly speaking. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Parcels per annum per individual^ 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How many do we now handle per annum per 
 individual in the United States? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. About one and a half per inhabitant. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If we develop as England has, we would not 
 double the present number of packages that we are handling ? 
 
PAKCEL POST. 811 
 
 Mr. Burrows. We would perhaps not. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, Mr. Burrows; I just want to call your at- 
 tention, if you will pardon the suggestion, to the estimates that I 
 think are so ridiculous that the opponents of the parcel post are 
 making; these very exaggerated statements that we would have to 
 have the whole lower end of New York shedded over to hold the 
 parcels if we developed as England has, when, as a matter of fact, it 
 wouldn't double the number of packages we are now sending out. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Perhaps that was an exaggeration. I guess I did 
 not figure on it ; but the reason I think that big towns like New York 
 will get an enormous business is because they can get it when the 
 Government says that not simply for the letter do we annihilate dis- 
 tance, but whether it is 1 mile or 5 miles, it shall all go on the flat rate. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose that the Government did not do that? 
 Suppose we did not have a flat rate ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. On first-class mail ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. On fourth-class mail. Nobody is contemplating 
 any change in rate except on the fourth-class matter. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. The only way that the Government can successfully 
 handle the parcel-post service is through getting a monopoly. You 
 can not get a monopoly of that carriage, and therefore you can not 
 get the profit, because you will get the losing end unless the Govern- 
 ment can work cheaper than organizations. 
 
 The Chairman. Assuming that the Government could make a 
 monopoly of it, would you be in favor of the Government doing so? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. No ; I would not ; but if it could, then I would say 
 right here comes in a broad divergence between you and the next man 
 and the next man. How far should the Government go in what it 
 does? The first-class mail, the letter mail, must be handled by the 
 Government. All such functions of Government as the conduct of 
 the defensive, the executive, the judicial, and the legislative machin- 
 ery of the Nation must be governmental functions. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Then you believe that when the Government ex- 
 tended the second-class mail away back in the beginning it did 
 wrong ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Yes ; they never should have done that. 
 
 The Chairman. There should have been no fourth-class either ? 
 
 Mr. Burrows. No, sir ; I will not say none, but I would say that it 
 would have been better kept at a minimum. If we develop these 
 functions of the Government, that means an enormous increase in the 
 number of employees. I was surprised to see you give the number 
 of employees there. I wondered if that covered all employees or cer- 
 tain ones only. I would like to get a chance to study that. 
 
 The Chairman. I would be very glad to give you the information. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. But if we enlarge the circle of Government em- 
 ployees, any man who is in the presidential chair with such an army 
 of employees can perpetuate himself in office. I am against that. I 
 said that I was against the Government handling this parcel-post 
 service, because it would do the losing business. A friend of mine 
 left Cleveland a few years ago and went out to your own State, 
 Oregon ; perhaps a 2,000 mile railroad ride from Cleveland to Port- 
 land, Oreg., and then a steamboat ride up the Columbia River, and 
 then' a stage ride to the remote locality that he was visiting. He had 
 
812 PARCEL POST. 
 
 a nice trip, because it was in the summertime. At any rate, when he 
 got into that remote mining village here is what he found. He said : 
 
 If a parcel-post carrying service were extended in the postal department of 
 the United States to-day with an 11-pound weight limit, and with any one of 
 these rates from 1 cent a pound, 5 cents a pound, 12 cents a pound, or the pres- 
 ent rate of 16 cents a pound, every package that could be done up into an 11- 
 pound parcel that went into that remote mining section, every pound of nails, 
 shoes, sugar, ties, and shirts, everything that is consumed by those 500 people 
 living there, would go there by parcel post, because it will be altogether the 
 cheapest way of getting it there. 
 
 Now, when the Government does this distribution work it is go- 
 ing to find just that situation existing. There are thousands of those 
 awkward places to get at. When the publisher has a thousand copies 
 of a magazine to send from Cleveland or from New York to a news- 
 dealer 50 miles away, all to one address, he doesn't let the Government 
 handle them at 1 cent a pound. He takes the express company or 
 the fast freight, but when he has that same number of copies that are 
 to go copy addressed, or a half dozen to one little postmaster, then 
 the Government has the job. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is an argument for the zone system as 
 against the flat rate. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Pardon me, Senator: some words fall flat and others 
 flatter. Flattery is like cologne water; it is to be smelled of but not 
 swallowed. Is there any kind of a parcel-post system that is good? 
 I believe that it is all bad, and I am unalterably opposed so far to 
 any sort of parcel post, limited or unlimited, and I hope to goodness 
 we do not get it in this country. If we do, God help us ; that is the 
 way I look at it. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Burrows, you have just 5 minutes more, as 
 we must adjourn at 6 o'clock. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If there is anything additional, Mr. Burrows, 
 why could you not put that in writing and send it to the committee. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I will do so. 1 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; if there is anything additional that you 
 would like to have go in the hearing. 
 
 Senator Bristow. He wouM not be bothered then with our ques- 
 tions. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I am glad to hear them, Senator. I want to speak 
 of the effect of the parcel-post system in this country on the farmer, 
 from the standpoint of his outgo. I will not speak of his intake 
 from the mail-order house. When we once get a parcel-post system 
 established, and the mail-order houses have displaced country mer- 
 chants, as I believe they would — whether I am right or wrong, I 
 still believe it— and the farmer wants to get rid of a bushel of po- 
 tatoes, or a chicken or two, and half a dozen ducks, what is he going 
 to do with them? If the local country merchant is ground out of 
 business, as he will be by the operation of this law, he can not sell 
 them to the mail-order houses a thousand miles away, and he can not 
 eat them all. 
 
 Senator Briggs. I heard a gentleman arguing that one of the ad- 
 vantages would be that it would enable the farmer to distribute his 
 butter in pound packages. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. You take a hot July day like last summer and the 
 butter would come out oil when we got it. The result of that thing 
 
 1 Not yet received. 
 
PARCEL POST. 813 
 
 would be that we would have a town of from 1,000 to 10,000 going 
 in one of two directions ; either to the land and reinstate the farmer 
 in the isolation that was upon him before rural free delivery saved 
 so many of them from that isolation, or to the congested life of the 
 big city. Either direction is bad. It will cause what would be called 
 the plantation life of the South instead of our New England or West- 
 ern village with its intellectual activities, as I believe. Now, the 
 farmer, as I say, would be in that position, but about all I can say 
 is that you could start a commission to go abroad and take along 
 one or two men. 
 
 The Chairman. I think the committee, consisting of 16 members 
 of the Senate, is capable of deciding as to the best method of pro- 
 cedure. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. I doubt not. 
 
 The Chairman. We will get your views and those of others before 
 deciding on the method that shall be adopted. 
 
 Mr. Borrows. When you get one country dealer talking against 
 parcel post, and with practically a million of them in the country, 
 and, saj', 15 farmers talking for it, and they have all been educated 
 from top down, for they want it, that one country dealer will do more 
 talking than the whole 15 farmers will. 
 
 Senator Briggs. The trouble with him is that he got started about 
 three years too late, as I see it. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. He will do more to defeat the big presidential can- 
 didate whom, perhaps, some of us would like to reelect than the 15 
 farmers would toward reelecting him. Gentlemen, I am very much 
 obliged to you for your patience. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you, Mr. Burrows. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. In conclusion, may I make one quotation here? 
 
 The Chairman. I believe it will be necessary now to adjourn the 
 committee, as it is 6 o'clock. 
 
 Mr. Burrows. Then, I will not stop even for that quotation. I 
 was going to make a literary quotation. 
 
 (Thereupon the committee, at 6 o'clock p. m., adjourned to meet 
 at the call of the chairman.) 
 
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 28, 1911. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), Senator Bris- 
 tow, and Senator Nathan P. Bryan. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF W. T. CREASY, MASTER STATE GRANGE OF 
 
 PENNSYLVANIA. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Creasy, it will be necessary that you be 
 sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Kindly state your age, residence, and your occu- 
 pation. 
 
 Mr. Creasy. I am 55 years old, and am a farmer of Pennsylvania. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you been engaged in farming? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. All my life time. I have been running a farm on 
 my own account for 36 years. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any official position in the way of any 
 association or organization? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. I am master of the Pennsylvania State Grange, a farm 
 organization having a membership of between sixty and seventy 
 thousand. 
 
 The Chairman. In Pennsylvania? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Yes, sir; I am also director of the Postal Express 
 League, of this country. 
 
 The Chairman. The latter organization, have you any idea as to 
 its membership? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. No; the latter organization is more of a bureau to 
 disseminate information along the lines we lay down. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any connection with the National 
 Grange ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. I am a member of the National Grange. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the membership of the National Grange 
 now? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Well, the paid-up membership is about 500,000, but 
 that, of course, does not show the real membership, because some 
 members are not paid up when the returns are made, so I would 
 think the real membership of the National Grange would be in the 
 neighborhood of, I should say, at a guess, about three-quarters of 
 a million, possibly more. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any other farming organizations similar 
 in their functions to the National Grange? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. To a certain extent, I think the Farmers' Union of the 
 South is. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a large organization ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Yes, sir. 
 814 
 
PAECEL POST. 815 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any idea as to the membership of that 
 organization ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. No, sir ; I have none. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you been master of the State 
 Grange of Pennsylvania? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. This is my fourth year. 
 
 The Chairman. In the hearing will you present your own views, or 
 will you speak also for the State Grange of Pennsylvania ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Well, we have a number of State granges that we 
 have authority to represent here. We represent here the States of 
 Pennsylvania, Maine, Connecticut, Oregon, Washington, Nebraska, 
 and South Dakota. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you opposed to or in favor of an extension of 
 the present parcel post system as represented under the fourth-class 
 mail matter? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. I am in favor of a parcel post, a general parcel 
 post or a postal express, something by which we can get larger 
 packages. 
 
 The Chairman. At smaller rates? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. At smaller rates. 
 
 The Chairman. The organizations which you have mentioned here 
 and enumerated, that you have authority to represent, could you give 
 the committee the benefit of the information as to whether those or- 
 ganizations coincide with your views in this respect ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Yes ; the grange has for many years stood for a parcel 
 post. 
 
 The Chairman. And have they designated their position in the 
 matter by a series of resolutions? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Always; yes, sir. There is no mistake about their 
 position on a parcel post. You will understand that the grange 
 organizations, while they represent a certain paid-up membership, 
 they practically represent the farmers outside of the organization, 
 because many of them can not attend the meetings, but the grauge 
 really represents the progressive element of agricultural interests in 
 the States I have mentioned. 
 
 The Chairman. What number, in millions, would you estimate 
 were interested in agriculture in the United States proper. 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Well, I can not give you that figure ; I saw it in the 
 census, but I can not remember it. I think it is about 40 per cent, 
 though. 
 
 The Chairman. So far as your information goes, the agricultural 
 portion of our citizens are practically in favor of increasing the 
 weight and decreasing the postage of fourth-class mail matter ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Yes ; I think that is the fact. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you give the committee the benefit of your 
 ideas as to what reasons the agricultural classes of our citizens have 
 for favoring this extension ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Well, there has been a great change in agricultural 
 methods within the last few years. The question of the scarcity of 
 help on the farms is one of great importance, and in looking up the 
 question of the high cost of living the great factors that enter into 
 it, we find the question of distribution, and in this question of dis- 
 tribution comes the question of transportation as one of the factors, 
 
816 PARCEL POST. 
 
 but while the big farmer who is doing a big business, selling food by 
 the carload, or who is doing business on a big scale, probably does 
 not need as much help as the small farmer, the man who has five 
 or ten acres, and who can not grow these things in carload lots and 
 ship them in that way. If he had some method by which he could 
 supply his people within a reasonable distance, it would give that 
 class of agricultural people, the small farmer, so to speak, an advan- 
 tage which they do not have to-day. That would, of course, include 
 the question of a preferential rate for a zone limit, by which they 
 should have some advantage, because I do not believe the Govern- 
 ment could afford — it would not be a business proposition for them — 
 to ship parcels at a loss, but the small farmer who lives pretty close 
 to a merchant and does his business on a small scale, would certainly 
 be benefited by a parcel post. On the other hand, it would be an ad- 
 vantage to all farmers when they wanted to get something and which 
 they perhaps wanted in a hurry. Few farmers have time to sit down 
 and figure a week ahead, or two weeks ahead, or a month ahead, 
 what they want, because something might break, or because some- 
 thing might have to be fixed. With a telephone and a parcel post 
 system, if you had a zone limit, you could get an article in a short 
 time from even the distant towns, delivered right to your door, and 
 the rural carrier could easily deliver that, because he does not now 
 carry such a big load. I know in my business, farming, I often need 
 things, and need them right away. I always call up the storekeepers, 
 and there are lots of things he can not send me by mail. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the things that you want. Would he be 
 able to send them to you if the weight limit was increased to 11 
 pounds? What I want to get at is, what is the reason he could not 
 send them? Because he don't have them, or because they exceed the 
 weight of i pounds, or because the postal rate is too high ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Well, the postage rate would be too high and the 
 limit of 4 pounds would act as a factor. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee has been informed by a number of 
 gentlemen that have appeared before them that if the farmer has 
 anything break — for instance, a piece of machinery — it would be 
 cheaper for him to harness up and go to town and buy the broken 
 part himself from his country merchant than it would be to await 
 the delay incident to ordering by phone, and it being shipped to 
 Mm by mail. With your practical experience in farming, do you 
 think there is anything in that contention? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. No ; I do not think so. His merchant in the immedi- 
 ate town might not have it. I use the telephone; that is the way I 
 do business. 
 
 The Chairman. And your neighbors do the same thing? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Yes, sir ; they do. I think 9 times out of 10 they do. 
 
 The Chairman. Many who have appeared before us have had the 
 impression that an extension of the scope of our present parcel post, 
 as represented by the fourth-class mail matter, would benefit the 
 mail-order houses and the railroads only — that it would be of no 
 benefit to the agricultural class of our citizens, and would practi- 
 cally destroy the business of our country merchants. Would you 
 give the committee the benefit of your ideas on those points, whether 
 they are well taken or otherwise? 
 
PABCEL POST. 817 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Well, I believe that the right kind of a parcel post, 
 instead of hurting the country merchant, would help him if he had 
 the advantage of the preferential rates that the department store 
 has to-day, by shipping in large bulk lots through freight. 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, you mean a small-zone preferen- 
 tial rate? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Yes, sir ; say 50 miles ; that would give the merchant 
 the advantage. I think it would just reverse the situation; that is 
 my opinion. I am a director of a bank, and I see the business of 
 the department stores is practically increasing under the present 
 system, and I would think that this plan of just reversing it would 
 give the country merchant the advantage. Then, of course, the 
 country merchant would be on his job under this system, which is 
 practically a cooperative movement by the Government, and he would 
 help carry it on by being of some use to the community ; and every 
 man who expects to live on the public ought to give something in 
 return for what he receives. He could make himself so useful he 
 could do the business of a certain number of people, instead of 
 having every farmer, when he wanted something, consult a cata- 
 logue book for two or three hours and pay for a thing before he 
 sees it. I think 9 times out of 10 — and I believe oftener — the farmer 
 would prefer dealing with the country merchant and having a 
 chance to see what he gets. If the country merchant could have 
 some chance of getting his goods through the postal express, he 
 could get them in smaller lots, with the advantage of delivering 
 them out in the country which he does not now have, and I think 
 that would be an advantage that he does not now have, and a great 
 advantage. 
 
 The Chairman. In your community do you know whether any 
 large amount of business is done by your neighbors with the mail- 
 order houses ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Well, I think the business is increasing with the mail 
 order houses ; that is my opinion. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you explain, for the benefit of the commit 
 tee, how that operates ? I mean, do your neighbors make up an order 
 among themselves or do they send individual orders regardless of the 
 weights, if they want anything, weighing a few pounds, for instance, 
 do they send to the mail-order houses, or do they patronize the 
 country store? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Well, as a rule, these orders are made up in this way: 
 The mail-order houses give instructions that they won t sell for less 
 than so much value, and instead of buying what they really need, they 
 make up, perhaps, a larger order to get the low freight rate on 100 
 pounds. . 
 
 The Chairman. So the inducement is to make up orders, either by 
 the individual himself cooperating with his neighbors, so that the 
 aggregate order will amount to at least 100 pounds in weight in order 
 to insure that freight rate, or perhaps the individual ordering some- 
 thing which he really does not need in order to get the same advan- 
 tage of the freight rate ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Yes, sir; and I believe under a parcel post, or what 
 ever you call it, if it was rightly arranged, the farmer would buy 
 more of his goods and just what he needed from the country mer- 
 chant because I am satisfied the mail-order business is growing rap- 
 
818 PARCEL POST. 
 
 idly, and this, I think, would give the advantage to the country 
 merchant. Of course, I do not believe that it is going to keep the 
 country merchant in business where he is not needed, for I believe 
 there is a limit to that just as to anything else. There are a certain 
 number of men necessary, of course, to do business, and when you 
 exceed that amount you can not expect them to have a right to ask for 
 an existence when there was more than necessary to keep up the work. 
 
 The Chairman. To your knowledge, do many of your neighbors 
 buy single orders from mail-order houses? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Well, I do not know. 
 
 The Chairman. In less amounts than 100 pounds in weight? 
 
 Mr. Creast. No; I do not think they do, from the bills that pass 
 through our banks. I would think they bought in pretty good bulk. 
 
 The Chairman. You think you are justified in stating that the 
 members of the National Grange in the States you have designated 
 here, that you have authority to appear for to-day, are practically 
 unanimously in favor of the extension of our present parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Indeed, they are. I might add that I talked with one 
 of our merchants in our town whom I know very well and told him 
 I was coming to Washington to appear before the Committee on 
 Post Offices and Post Roads, regarding the parcel post and he said 
 the parcel post would ruin every merchant in our town. I began to 
 explain to him yiat I thought he was wrong and that the express 
 companies were a set of robbers, in which he did agree with me, and 
 that the thing that would remove the objection, I believed, from the 
 country merchant and give him a chance, would be this preferential 
 rate or else the wiping out of the express companies altogether. 
 
 The Chairman. You think that the establishment of a zone system 
 would remove all objections on the part of the country merchant 
 when he came to understand the preferential rates that the immediate 
 locality would enjoy over a greater distance? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Yes; that would remove some of them; whether it 
 would remove all, I am not prepared to say, but I think it would 
 do away with a good deal of it. I said to this gentleman, " How 
 would you like the doing away with the express companies entirely 
 and having the Government doing the business " ? He replied, " Well, 
 I won't object to that." 
 
 Senator Bristow. As a matter of fact, is not the mail-order house 
 using the freight more than the express in the shipping of its 
 business ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Certainly they are, because they are getting the big 
 orders through the freight ; that is their argument to get large orders. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They will continue to do that whether there is 
 a parcel post or not, for you can not make a parcel post compete with 
 the freight? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. No; but you can give the country merchant a chance 
 to get his goods cheaper and quicker ; and when the man in the coun- 
 try would order from his country merchant something that he did 
 not have, then the country merchant would have a chance of getting it 
 quicker and getting it cheaper. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The country merchant would have an oppor- 
 tunity to meet this competition he has, which under the present 
 system he does not now have? 
 
PARCEL POST. 819 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Yes, sir; that is my opinion, if the country merchant 
 would be on his job; and I think he would manage that end of it to 
 meet that. 
 
 Senator Beistow. He would have to, probably. 
 
 Mr. Creasy. I have not prepared an argument on this subject. We 
 have some men here who probably have prepared themselves. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Is it your experience that there is a feeling of 
 antagonism by the farmers to the country merchant ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. No ; I think that is not the case. 
 
 Senator Bryan. So far as you have observed, have any farm jour- 
 nals been able to alienate the trade of the farming and rural com- 
 munities from the country merchant by advocating an extended and 
 additional use of the mail-order business? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Well, no ; I do not think so. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Some gentlemen who have appeared before this 
 subcommittee have given it as their opinion that there is a feeling 
 of antagonism by the rural communities to the country merchant; 
 and that the granges, perhaps, and the farm journals, certainly, have 
 undertaken to persuade these citizens of the rural communities to 
 deal with houses at a distance, commonly called the mail-order houses 
 and department stores, upon the theory that the local merchants are 
 charging more than is a fair return on their investment and busi- 
 ness. Is it your opinion that such a condition does exist or not? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Well, now, generally speaking — of course there are 
 exceptions — I do not think such conditions exist for the reason that 
 in Pennsylvania I know, and in other States I understand, it is a 
 fact that many of the country merchants belong to the Grange, and 
 that the Grange in many sections meets at a country store. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Is there not a feeling of friendliness existing, so 
 far as you know, between the rural communities and the country store 
 that supplies their necessities and wants? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. I think there is. Of course, as I say, there may be 
 exceptions, but generally speaking I think there is a friendly feeling. 
 
 Senator Bryan. And in your opinion, then, this feeling as stated 
 and outlined by me is exaggerated ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. I think so. But, on the other hand, I think the 
 farmer is influenced to a great extent by the fact that he is paying 
 enormous prices for a lot of things he is using, and also being influ- 
 enced through the advertisements of these mail-order houses and 
 their arguments that they can send to them cheaper by freight, but 
 I do not think they are blaming the merchant so much for the high 
 prices so much as the combinations that control the prices that the 
 merchants must pay. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You mean by that the express companies ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Yes ; so far as the transportation is concerned, and the 
 people who control the prices of the goods. 
 
 Senator Bryan. But you do not expect much relief as against the 
 express companies by the establishment of an enlarged parcel post, 
 
 do you ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. No ; I am afraid it would not reach the real trouble, 
 but I believe the postal express would turn something over to the 
 Government. I think the men at the head of the thing must have 
 some latitude in the management, to regulate the cost of transpor- 
 
820 PARCEL POST. 
 
 tation by the service, and not have the cost of transportation greater 
 than the cost of service. 
 
 Senator Bryan. But you do not expect any express service, 
 whether operated by private entreprises or by the Government, to be 
 able to establish a rate so cheap as to compete with the freight rate ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Oh, no; because the freight is so much slower; you 
 would not expect that. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Does it appear altogether feasible for a parcel 
 post to handle the small packages and then have no intermediary 
 between the parcel post and the freight, so as to eliminate the express 
 altogether ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Well, have you reference to what is called in foreign 
 countries a secondary express? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, that, of course, would depend on the 
 organization which the railway company might perfect. At the 
 present time the railroad companies charge for 100 pounds. Now, if 
 the Government took all of the small packages up to 11 pounds and 
 handled them upon reasonable rates as a parcel post, the Government 
 could handle all the packages just as well as part of them of that 
 size, and that would give the express companies the larger packages. 
 Does it seem to you to be practicable for the railroads simply to put 
 in a system of small express, you might say, on smaller packages than 
 the 100 pounds, so as to meet that gap between the size of the parcel 
 post and the present size of the freight package, so as to render the 
 express company an unnecessary method of transportation? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Well, I think that a secondary express could be estab- 
 lished and run. I don't think the railroads could run it because they 
 do not run far enough, but I believe the Government could run a 
 secondary express on the same plan as they would a postal express. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you suggest, then, a parcel post and in addi- 
 tion to that what you call a secondary express ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. In what way would that differ from the parcel 
 post? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Well, that would take more bulky things of less value 
 that perhaps would not need to travel quite so fast. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That would necessitate the organization of a 
 new system, independent of the postal system ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Well, I don't know about that. That could be carried 
 by the railroads in amounts less than carload lots and distributed by 
 passenger service through the post office to destination. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But why could not the railroads do that with 
 their facilities, and up to the point where the Government would do 
 it under the parcel-post system suggested? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Of course, I have not studied railroad matters and I 
 don't know whether I could answer you that intelligently, but if the 
 Government had control of the railroads I suppose it could be done. 
 
 Senator Bryan. What is the attitude of the organizations you rep- 
 resent with reference to the Government monopolizing the fourth- 
 class mail matter up to whatever limit is established ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Well, I haven't the figures on that. You mean to 
 carry 
 
 Senator Bryan. Does your organization favor permitting the ex- 
 press companies to enter into competition with the Government, pro- 
 
PARCEL POST. 821 
 
 vided the activities of the present fourth-class mail matter are in- 
 creased in scope? 
 
 Mr. Creast. The Government ought to have a monopoly, but, of 
 course, they have to do it as cheap as the express companies, or 
 cheaper. 
 
 Senator Bryan. That is the attitude of your organization? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bryan. What classifications or what articles of merchan- 
 dise is it your opinion as representing these organizations should be 
 carried by the parcel post on rural routes ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Well, that is a pretty hard question ; that would de- 
 pend somewhat on the locality. The only thing I think ought to be 
 done is something to help the small farmer in the delivering of his 
 products to the market. 
 
 Senator Bryan. That is the reason I asked the question. Is the 
 general favor with which this plan is received by the granges based 
 somewhat upon the idea that the parcel post will carry their produce 
 to the markets? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Yes ; if it will be of some benefit. 
 
 Senator Bryan. In other words, you do not favor a parcel post that 
 would simply carry merchandise or dry goods, but you also want it 
 to carry back to you your supplies and your wants, as well as to carry 
 the products of your farm ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Certainly; we want money to buy the articles from the 
 merchants. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Your idea is that it would carry the butter, eggs and 
 chickens, and vegetables raised on the farm, as well as merchandise 
 and dry goods ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Yes, sir ; my idea is a parcel post similar to what they 
 have in foreign countries. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Do you think an 11-pound limit would be sufficient 
 for that purpose? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. No, sir ; I do not think it would. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Then, as to the rural route, would you want the 
 limit raised ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bryan. But outside of rural routes, on a general or zone 
 system, as it rises to greater distances, you would not suppose the Gov- 
 ernment would enter into the carriage of anything except dry goods, 
 merchandise, and other matter now carried under the fourth-class 
 mail matter ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. There is just one thing about this parcel post to keep 
 in mind, and that is you can not argue out any kind of a plan except 
 the elimination of the express companies, to make a long story short. 
 
 Senator Bryan. So the agitation is due to the existence of the 
 express companies and the rates they charge? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Yes ; and the fact that they are not giving the service. 
 
 Senator Bryan. And also to the unused portion of the machinery 
 we now have on the rural routes ? 
 
 TVTt (Creasy Ygs sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose, Mr. Creasy, that the Government, through 
 the Interstate Commerce Commission, had the power and acted so as 
 to cause the express companies to give better service at lower rates, 
 and at the same time, the Government increased the present scope 
 
822 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 of the fourth-class mail matter, by increasing the weight and de- 
 creasing the postage rate, certainly the granges would favor such 
 action as that, would they not? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Yes. They would rather take something than nothing, 
 but the way that we have looked at it is there is a lot of work that 
 the express companies do that Uncle Sam, under his management, 
 could do much cheaper by putting a stamp on the package instead of 
 marking it and checking it and rechecking it over a dozen times or so. 
 That is the point we try to make. The subject of the Government 
 ownership of railroads came up before the National Grange, I think, 
 five years ago, and this was the conclusion and I think it was the 
 opinion held by the advanced thinkers among the farmers: That if the 
 Government can not regulate the railroads, then Government owner- 
 ship is the last resort. 
 
 The Chairman. They prefer Government regulation if it can be 
 had? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. Regulation, if possible; and then the only alternative 
 is Government ownership. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any further information or are there any 
 further remarks you care to make ? 
 
 Mr. Creasy. No ; I said I was not prepared. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee is much obliged to yen for your 
 views. 
 
TESTIMONY OF MR. JOHN A. McSPARRAN, SECRETARY OF THE 
 LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE, PENNSYLVANIA STATE GRANGE. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. McSparran, it will be necessary that you bo, 
 sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age and present oc- 
 cupation? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. I am 38 years old; Lancaster County, Pa.; 
 farmer. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you a member or officer of any association? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. I am secretary of the legislative committee of the 
 Pennsylvania State Grange. 
 
 The Chairman. In appearing before the committee to-day, will 
 you designate where, to the best of your knowledge, you express the 
 wishes and views of the grange and where your own? I mean, in 
 your testimony, state specifically where you are giving your own in- 
 dividual ideas and not those of the grange, if there is a difference. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, my views will be largely the Pennsylvania 
 idea, because there are some views I do not think the other States 
 have acted on, and therefore I could not be sure as to their posi- 
 tion, but the position I will take will be the action of the Pennsyl- 
 vania State Grange. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you state whether the grange is in favor 
 or not of extending the present scope of our parcel post as repre- 
 sented by the fourth-class mail matter ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Whether they are in favor of extending the 
 parcel post as it is now operated ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No ; I think not. I think the Pennsylvania State 
 Grange is in favor of establishing entirely a practically new system. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you give the committee the benefit of their 
 views relative to that, and elucidate them? _ 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Will you allow me to just go ahead and present 
 them and afterwards ask me questions? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. The idea that we think lies at the base of the 
 whole proposition is the fact that in all transportation the whole sys- 
 tem of transportation of all kinds in this country has been based al- 
 most entirely upon a dividend-making ability. The convenience of 
 the people has practically been left out, and because of that fact there 
 has been no system, either in the Post Office Department or out of it, 
 that has to any large extent met the need and convenience of the. 
 people, because even the price that the Government itself pays for 
 the service it now has is entirely too high, and away above what the 
 express companies pay, and as a consequence of that any change 
 that would be made that would give to the people of the United 
 States this convenience that the rest of the world has enjoyed, and 
 
 823 
 
824 PARCEL POST. 
 
 we certainly ought to enjoy, would have to be started right down at 
 the bottom and the rate-making would have to be on an entirely 
 different basis. For that reason we feel that there can be no ade- 
 quate system of parcel carrying that will not eliminate the express 
 companies, because that question of convenience carries with it the 
 element of cheapness, and the Government can not submit to compe- 
 tition. You know it is a fact that the express companies have, you 
 might say, stolen the profitable hauls in the business as it has been 
 carried on heretofore and left the Government the unprofitable hauls 
 so far as possible ; and a monopoly of the Government in that busi- 
 ness has been recognized from the beginning, but for some reason or 
 other the express companies have been able to hold the Government 
 down to a 4-pound package, and that at a rate which is prohibitive. 
 As a consequence the parcel business of this country has been trifling 
 and very inadequate. 
 
 One of the great reasons for the express companies being eliminated 
 is the fact that any system that would be adopted by the Government 
 ought to reach everybody, and that the express companies do not do 
 that and can not do it and never will do it. The railroads could not 
 do it for the same reason; they do not reach everybody and never 
 will reach everybody. It takes all these systems that the Govern- 
 ment can use and can to a very large extent compel them to do its 
 bidding and can carry on any system that they adopt clear down to 
 the smallest village, and even almost to the door of every house, and 
 any system that the Government adopts should be that comprehensive 
 in its scope. As a consequence of that we feel it is an absolute neces- 
 sity that the express companies, that have long ago been wiped out of 
 the rest of the civilized world, should be taken out of the United 
 States, and the parcel system of the Government should be compre- 
 hensive enough to reach all parcels and all people. There is another 
 thought, and that is, the delivery that we have now, whether by rail- 
 road or by express, is only made where it pays to make it. In the 
 thickly populated sections the express company collects packages at 
 the doors and makes deliveries right at the doors, but when you go 
 into the more sparsely settled communities that is not the case, and 
 the express companies make absolutely no effort to receive or deliver 
 unless it pays them. Now that, you see, is an unequal condition that 
 any legislation upon this subject ought to try to remove, because 
 the tax that would be laid to support any system of that kind, coming 
 from the whole of the people, should go back to the whole of the 
 people as nearly equal as possible. That being the basic idea of it, 
 I want to take up just two lines of thought and try to show to you 
 how the thing will work out. At present the American farmer gets 
 35 cents out of every dollar of food products that he produces. The 
 rest of that dollar goes for distribution in one form or another, 
 either in transportation rate or middleman. We have heard a great 
 deal lately about the middlemen and that the high cost of living is 
 largely due to middlemen. We feel that the middleman, taken as 
 an individual, is as honest a business man as anybody else, but that 
 it is the system of doing business in this country that has generated 
 the middleman, and our transportation rates are very largely the 
 first thing, or the essential thing, that has brought about that con- 
 dition, because all our transportation rates have been in favor of the 
 big shipper. 
 
PAECEL POST. 826 
 
 Senator Bristow. If you will pardon me, there is one remark you 
 made I would like to have a little more information on. You say 
 that the farmer gets 35 cents out of the dollar. How do you fix the 
 dollar value? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. By what the consumer pays. 
 
 Senator Bristow. By what the consumer pays? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The 65 cents then covers the expense of distribu- 
 tion. What about the expense of manufacture? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, there is no manufacture. For instance, 
 take a bushel of potatoes, a bushel of vegetables, and food products. 
 I did not mean to convey the idea of grains and things of that kind. 
 I am not sure whether it covers that, but if it does then of course, 
 on the others, such as vegetables, fruits, and things of that kind, and 
 things that go to market unmanufactured, it would be a much lower 
 rate proportionately. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is what I was thinking. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. I am not sure in my own mind whether it does 
 include wheat, grain, and the cereals or not. 
 
 Senator Bristow. In many sections of the country these cereals are 
 the most important product of the farm ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. I think they are generally. 
 
 The Chairman. Where did you get the estimate of 35 cents to the 
 farmer and the balance to the middleman and the cost of distribu- 
 tion? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Just a summing up of a lot of concrete examples. 
 I do not think there are any absolute official figures on it, but the 
 figures were gotten by summing up a lot of concrete examples. It is 
 not official data, and I do not know of any official data on the subject. 
 
 The Chairman. It is your own estimate ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No; not my own, but what I consider reliable 
 summing up of concrete instances. 
 
 The Chairman. If you will go on with your statement, please. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Take, for instance, right in our country— this is 
 a concrete example — the farmer receives on the average for his milk 
 about 3^ cents a quart, but that costs the consumer in Philadelphia, 
 66 miles away, 8 cents a quart. That business has been very largely 
 centralized and very largely filled with middlemen. In our com- 
 munity the milk in the first place is not shipped in small quantities, 
 but gathered together at a receiving station ; then it is shipped, and 
 when it goes into the city it goes again to some form of distributing 
 station, what you might call a wholesale distributing station. That 
 wholesale distributing station does not distribute all the milk they 
 receive, because they sell it out to the smaller distributors, but it has 
 largely' been centralized so that Borden, in New York, and Ballad 
 and Supplee, in Philadelphia, and two or three others practically 
 handle the milk products of those large cities. 
 
 The Chairman. Do they get 4-J- cents, the difference between what 
 the consumer pays and what the farmers receives? _ 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes; and what the railroads receive. I dont 
 know what the railroads get. ,-,.,, 
 
 The Chairman. I was wondering if you could give the committee 
 the segregation of the 4| cents difference? 
 21845— vol 3—12 16 
 
826 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No; I could not, because it varies, and I could 
 not give you any specific data on that. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That 4^ cents represents the transportation of 
 the milk from the farmer's door to the city and the distribution in 
 the city? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No; from the railroad station. The farmer has 
 to deliver it to the railroad station. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It is delivered to the railroad station? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And that includes the transportation from the 
 railroad station to the city, to the distributing agent in the city? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Have you any information or data as to the cost 
 of distribution in the city, and the cost of railroad freight, and so 
 forth? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No; I have not. That is pretty hard to get, 
 because they keep it pretty dark, and I haven't anything that is 
 official on that. They claim it takes about all, but there is a difference 
 of opinion on that ; but I haven't the data by which to prove it does 
 or does not. I would say this: I do not believe their charges are 
 so out of place, but because of the fact that they cover the districts 
 two or three or four times; the different milk routes will cross and 
 recross each other, and that condition, driving over the city a whole 
 lot of different times to deliver the milk in a particular section has 
 very largely to do with the tremendous cost of distribution there. 
 
 Senator Bristow. This centralization which you speak of, which 
 of course has a tendency to give the man the monopoly, still it 
 would eliminate that duplication of service? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No; not entirely, unless they had an absolute 
 monopoly. It would have a tendency in that direction. The more 
 milk one firm would deliver the more it would have a tendency in 
 that direction. 
 
 The Chairman. Does all the milk that is shipped in the community 
 in which you reside go to one depot for concentration and shipment ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Not to one depot, but several. No ; it is not all 
 centered right at one depot. 
 
 The Chairman. Each farmer makes his own shipments ; or does he 
 deliver to a consignee at the railroad depot or depots there in the 
 nearest towns? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. He delivers to a man who is in their employ. 
 
 The Chairman. And he acts as agent for all the farmers ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No ; he acts as agent for the milkman in the city. 
 They are through with it when they take it there, and they are paid 
 there and have nothing further to do with it. 
 
 The Chairman. And they are paid 3£ cents a quart ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. On an average; yes. It runs from about $1.20 
 cents to $2 a hundred, and it figures out about 3^ cents a quart. We 
 were paid last month 38 cents a pound for butter, which retailed at 
 that time in the cities for 50 cents. Of course, that is the fancy 
 butter which the creameries make, upon the same basis upon which 
 we are paid. All the way through there is that tremendous difference 
 between the price the farmer receives and the price the consumer has 
 to pay. 
 
PARCEL POST. 827 
 
 Now, of course the best system of parcel post would not reach it 
 all. For instance, there would be a great deal of milk that could 
 not be shipped. Large quantities could never be shipped through a 
 parcel post, but the point where it does come in in all these things 
 is the fact that the small shipper would get in. The man, for in- 
 stance, who had a small number of cows, or who made a little bit 
 of butter, or grew a little fruit or a few vegetables ; that man at the 
 present time practically loses that output unless he can use it in 
 his own family. 
 
 The Chairman. Why doesn't this representative of the city dis- 
 tributor of milk act as a purchaser for that small lot? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Because it does not pay him to go every morning 
 to the station, and it is a perishable product and he can not keep it 
 on hand. 
 
 The Chairman. It is because of the distance of transporation ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose you had a machinery and facility to over- 
 come that transportation difficulty that you suffer from at the present. 
 Would you still have to have some consignee in the city to whom to 
 ship milk in order to find your customer for it there? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. The small shipper would not. 
 
 The Chairman. Where would he have his customer? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. He would go right to the consumer. 
 
 The Chairman. He would not get on the train and go to Phila- 
 delphia or New York? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No. But if he had an adequate system of parcel 
 post, as they have in Germany, for instance, with a limit of 130 
 pounds, he could simply make up a package of these and have ar- 
 rangements made to send them into the city. For instance, if he had 
 a brother in the city, under the present system he could not send this 
 brother who lives 60 miles from him in a city a bit of fresh vegetables, 
 a bit of fresh butter, milk, cream, or any of the products of the farm, 
 and on lots of the farms there is a smail surplus, but not sufficient to 
 take advantage of the direct rates that would pay a man to hitch up 
 a team to go to the station or some of these points where the articles 
 are collected. 
 
 The Chairman. How many of your neighbors have relatives in the 
 city to whom they could make these small shipments? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Pretty near all of them. The country people are 
 pretty well represented in the city. There are few families that 
 haven't a vacant chair due to an absent member being somewhere 
 away. I mean that as a nucleus. There is no reason why the small 
 producer could not work up a trade with the small consumer in the 
 near-by towns or cities, but under our present system we are abso- 
 lutely cut out of that because you can not take advantage of either 
 the exprc j or freight rate on account of the price. 
 
 The Chairman. You have the rural routes in your vicinity? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. How many going into your nearest town? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, I do not know. There are two which start 
 out from one point about 3 miles from us and two which start out 
 from a point about 2$ miles from us. 
 
 The Chairman. Taking these four routes, how much milk is pro- 
 duced on the farms through which these four routes extend? 
 
828 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, I do not know. There is a big lot, however. 
 South Lancaster County turns out a lot of milk. 
 
 The Chairman. Could you give any estimate, in pounds, as to the 
 probable weight, keeping on the safe side? 
 
 Mr. McSparean. No; I could not. 
 
 The Chairman. Would it run into tons ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Oh, my, yes. I do not know what it would be. 
 
 The Chairman. A number of tons? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes ; I know farms there that run from one hun- 
 dred to two hundred thousand pounds a year, just individual farms. 
 
 The Chairman. That much milk? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, if one farm produced 500 pounds of milk 
 a day, would you expect the rural delivery carrier to deliver that 
 milk? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Oh, no. With those larger quantities you see, 
 when you get up over 100 pounds, it is not a question of postal ex- 
 press. 
 
 The Chairman. What I am trying to get at is, the load you are 
 going to put on your rural routes in the way of weight ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, I think that is a departmental question. 
 I do not think that is a legislative question. 
 
 The Chairman. It is a question that the legislative branch of the 
 Government has to take into consideration as to the volume of busi- 
 ness they are going to have, and whether it is going to be self-support- 
 ing or not, or how much of a loss it will entail. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, I do not know how they will get anything 
 definite on that. No firm can tell before they organize how much 
 business they are going to do next year. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, but you can get a certain amount of data 
 upon which you can base your deductions. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Why wouldn't it be better to establish the system 
 and then put in a postal regulation that no carrier would be com- 
 pelled to carry on a given day more than a certain number of pounds. 
 Then if the average business on that route grew so that he would have 
 to take two horses in place of one, the business would pay for the 
 extra horse and all that. 
 
 The Chairman. It would all depend upon the rate. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes ; and the amount of business. 
 
 The Chairman. You are assuming that the business increases. 
 You say you would have to put on and pay for an additional trans- 
 portation facility. It would all depend upon the rate charged, 
 wouldn't it? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No ; I think not. I think it would be the other 
 way ; the more business you did the less the rate could be. 
 
 The Chairman. I grant you that as a general proposition, but your 
 rate charge is the basis on which you demonstrate whether it is 
 self-supporting or not. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Oh, yes; that is true. 
 
 The Chairman. It is not your idea to favor an extension of the 
 parcel post that will be a tax upon the people. You expect it to be 
 self-supporting, do you not? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Very largely so. I do not see why it could not be 
 a slight tax. I do not see why it is necessary for it to be self -sup- 
 
PARCEL, POST. 829 
 
 porting right from the beginning, when our Post Office Department 
 has not been self-supporting at all. 
 
 The Chairman. But for a general proposition, you would expect 
 that system to be self-supporting? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes; eventually, after it was thoroughly estab- 
 lished. 
 
 The Chairman. And your organization would not favor the estab- 
 lishment of a parcel post that showed an annual deficit for any period 
 of time ? 
 
 Mr. McSparean. No ; not for a long time. Now, take for instance 
 the rates that the English have on the Great Western Eailway of 
 England. They have rates where they take 10 pounds for 12.16 
 cents for 30 miles; in fact, clear up to 100 miles they take 10 pounds 
 for 12.16 cents; 16.22 cents up to 200 miles and 18.24 cents above 200 
 miles. They take 24 pounds for 12.16 cents up to 50 miles, and 18.24 
 cents up to 100 miles, and 24.33 cents up to 200 miles, and 30.40 cents 
 above 200 miles. Now, that is for the carriage of butter, fish, cream, 
 eggs, poultry, flour, etc. Under that rate, if we had that system 
 operating in this country we could take — a small producer could take 
 five pounds of butter, five dozen eggs, and two chickens and send 
 them somewhere within 100 miles and he would get his return on 
 that, selling it direct to the consumer, which he could do. He could 
 send a hamper of that kind containing a dozen different kinds of 
 vegetables or fruit. I simply take this as a concrete instance, because 
 I know more clearly what the prices are on these articles, but you 
 could take it on any number of different combinations, where a man 
 could make up a box suitable for a private family, or subject to their 
 order, if needs be, of say 24 pounds, or whatever the limit would be 
 set at, and it would sum up with the container and all about 24 
 pounds, and he would gain on that $1.47 in cold cash. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Provided it sold for as much as it does now ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes. Of course, part of that would no doubt go 
 to the consumer and part to the producer, but there would be the 
 elimination of this middle man and the consumer and the producer 
 would have $1.47 on that litle box full of provisions to distribute 
 between them as they saw best, and not only that, but they would get 
 that stuff fresh and good, which you know they do not get now, for a 
 good deal of the food products of this country is knocked around 
 over the railroads and delivered any time next week, when a lot of it 
 is not fit to eat. I have given the rate quoted by the Great. Western 
 Eailway of England for those kinds of products. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is that a universal rate or rates established on a 
 zone system? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No ; I take it it is all over the line, but with a zone 
 system. However, with our magnificent distances here you could not 
 expect to carry that kind of stuff 3,000 miles for the same price you 
 carried it 30 or 60 miles. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It would not be just? _ 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No. The zone system is the system that ought to 
 be put into operation here. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And the system we are entitled to because of the 
 proximity of our towns? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Certainly, and the natural development of each 
 community, what you might call the home pride of every citizen in a 
 
830 PARCEL POST. 
 
 home community, would demand it if nothing else, if there would be 
 no financial benefit. So that we have in this country, because of the 
 fact that our transportation charges, not only of express but freight 
 as well — the question simply amplifies itself, the express is the 
 smaller shipment, and the freight is the larger shipment — no differ- 
 ence as to the perishable idea in connection with it and that has 
 brought about a system of centralized production as well as the cen- 
 tralized system of distribution. If a man can grow a carload of 
 fruit, he will very largely eliminate the middle man and he will get 
 for himself a very much larger price and he will reach the market 
 more directly than the fellow who ships just a little bit at a time. 
 
 The Chaieman. Aren't all of the carloads of fruit consigned to 
 jobbers in the cities and to cold-storage plants for distribution? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes ; carload lots, of course. 
 
 The Chaieman. He does not reach the consumer direct ? 
 
 Mr. McSpaeean. No. 
 
 The Chaieman. The only advantage he enjoys over the smaller 
 orchardist is the enjoyment of carload rates as against broken car- 
 load rates, but he has to ship to the jobber in the large cities and the 
 fruit goes into cold storage and is dealt out from that place, or is 
 sold at auction among the large jobbers in the cities. 
 
 Mr. McSpaeean. Not necessarily. It may pay him to have his 
 own jobbers, while the little man can not have. 
 
 The Chaieman. Is it going to pay him to establish a branch in, 
 the city because he has a carload or fruit? 
 
 Mr. McSpaeran. No. But if he has a carload of fruit he can sell 
 it before he picks it. 
 
 The Chairman. In boxes? 
 
 Mr. McSpaeean. Well, anyway he picks it. For instance, Mr. 
 Creasy picked 2 carloads of fruit this year and shipped it to a grocer. 
 
 The Chairman. A grocer will take a carload direct ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes; or any person who will handle a carload. 
 He will ship it himself without anybody gathering it up. The little 
 man has to have a man right at the farm to take it. 
 
 The Chairman. But the bulk of the fruit of the country, as I un- 
 derstand, in carload lots is shipped direct to the jobbers or commis- 
 sion merchants who handle that fruit upon a commission ? 
 
 Mr. McSpaeean. Well, a larger amount of it; yes. There is a 
 point. You speak specifically about fruit. I do not mean particu- 
 larly fruit. You have to specify something, but any of these prod- 
 ucts that are shipped in quantities that way, they not only get the 
 benefit of the rate, but they get the benefit of the profit saved from 
 the middleman, who puts enough together to get the benefit of the 
 freight rate. For instance, if you take one man who grows a carload 
 of stuff of any kind, you do not need to specify any particular kind. 
 It takes 10 men to grow 1 carload ; the man who grows in carload lots 
 will cut out the middleman at the producing end, because there has 
 to be a man there to take care of the 10 men who have to get together 
 to make up a carload rate. 
 
 The Chaieman. And ship it? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes. There is one man they can get rid of. 
 Then they get the benefit of the transportation rate, whatever it is, 
 and they don't pay the middleman any profit. 
 
PARCEL POST. 831 
 
 The Chairman. The middleman does not get any profit at all on 
 the transportation rate? The shipper pays the transportation rate 
 himself? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, if he tells the truth ; but they don't always 
 tell the truth. That is on the supposition that the middleman is 
 telling the truth, and he does not always do it. Sometimes he gets 
 a profit on the railroad rate, as well as on the other. You have an 
 element there of uncertainty, and the little shipper is at a disadvan- 
 tage on any line in this country to-day. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Even since rebates have been eliminated ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes ; because he has got this string of middlemen 
 to contend with, and if there is one dishonest one on the line he has 
 to pay the penalty outside of the enormous expenditures. 
 
 The Chairman. Where do you remove the difficulty that you have 
 explained here as existing against the small producer, by enlarging 
 your parcel-post system? I do not quite get your idea in my own 
 mind on that. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, you know, I did not say to enlarge the 
 parcel-post system. What do you mean — a system of 6 cents, 8 cents, 
 or 12 cents a pound ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, I do not think it can ever be done. They 
 will never enlarge it that way. 
 
 The Chairman. You think it is absolutely necessary to establish 
 what we have termed a governmental monopoly, and for the Govern- 
 ment to do the express business of the country within certain limits 
 of weight and a charge made commensurate with the cost of the 
 service ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. What would be your weight you think the Govern- 
 ment should adopt ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. The limit? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. The maximum weight? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, I have never felt it was necessary to adopt 
 a limit. I think the rates will control that. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, the competition between the freight rate 
 and the governmental parcel rate? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes. You see it is this way : Nobody would ship 
 a large package or consignment of anything unless it was absolutely 
 necessary that that thing go through in a specified time ; nor would 
 he be willing to pay these large rates, for on large packages the 
 rates would be in comparison with freight rates, unless it was neces- 
 sary to ship in a specified time. Now, if under the necessity and 
 strain of business he felt it necessary to do that, he ought not to be 
 handicapped in it; he ought to have that privilege. I have known 
 binders to be shipped by express. 
 
 The Chairman. Because of the urgency? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Because of the urgency. He simply paid the 
 price in order to get the machine quickly. Now, there might be a 
 condition of that kind, some perishable product, or some product on 
 which there was tremendous haste necessary, when the shipper 
 would gladly pay it, and if the Government would establish that 
 system, they ought to try to take care of that, but make him pay 
 for it and let the charges be the controller of the limit. 
 
832 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. How would you make your preparation for han- 
 dling any such parcel post as you have in mind, no limit of weight, 
 and the absorption by the Government of the handling of practi- 
 cally all parcels in the country? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. You mean, how would you put your machinery 
 in motion? 
 
 The Chairman. No. How would you make your preparations? 
 You would have an enormous volume of business. You would have 
 to have the post offices greatly increased in size or establish store- 
 houses, wouldn't you? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Oh, no ; not for express business. You never see 
 a pile of express business out in the country anywhere larger than 
 what you could put in a wheelbarrow at one time. No; I do not 
 think that would be necessary. You could take over the express 
 companies and all their business. 
 
 The Chairman. That is by condemnation, you mean? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes. How else could you get it? Is there any 
 other way in which it could be gotten ? 
 
 The Chairman. No; I do not think it could be gotten that way, 
 either. There is a legal question, regarding which, as a lawyer, I 
 am not qualified to pass upon. Then, the attitude of your organiza- 
 tion is that you favor the condemnation of the express companies or 
 the absorption by the Government of the express companies and the 
 assumption on the part of the Government of carrying the present 
 business that the express companies do carry? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, I am not interested one way or another in 
 express companies. The thing we are interested in is that the Gov- 
 ernment shall have a monopoly of the business. I do not know 
 what basis you put it on. They will still have the opportunity, as 
 they have been doing, of coming in and stealing at the particular 
 lines of business that have a profit, and leaving the Government with 
 the ones that do not have a profit, and the Government can never 
 get down on a basis that will be sufficiently low to be used by all the 
 people unless they can get absolutely every cent out of it that is 
 coming. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose a private enterprise could do business 
 cheaper than a governmental enterprise. Who would be injured? 
 Would not the consumer get the benefit of the cheaper rates by the 
 private enterprise? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. If there was some way of keeping them that way. 
 If he is good to-day and bad to-morrow, why it would result in the 
 same old story. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose you established or permitted a competi- 
 tion between a private enterprise and the Government, resulting in 
 the private enterprise making a profit, but much smaller than now. 
 Would not the producer and the consumer be benefited to the extent 
 the transportation rates were reduced on account of the competition? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. He could not possibly do it. There is no private 
 enterprise that could reach all the people of this country. 
 
 The Chairman. They do not to-day, of course. But in the coordi- 
 nation between the Government machinery and private organization, 
 if the competition between the two machineries, governmental and 
 private, resulted in lower rates, would not the general welfare of 
 the country be benefited to that extent ? 
 
PABCEL POST. 833 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No ; I do not think so, because of the fact that 
 private enterprises would have to do the clerical work that goes along 
 with that business, while the Government would not. There is a 
 great saving, you see. 
 
 The Chairman. Does not the Government have to do clerical work? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No. You put a two-cent stamp on that package, 
 and that represents the invoice, the bill of lading, receipt of delivery, 
 and everything. 
 
 The Chairman. Very true, but the Government has to keep track 
 of that two cents at the end of the year. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes; at the end of the year, but that is very 
 slight compared with the work of sending an express package over 
 two or three routes. There is no comparison at all in the expense 
 of clerical work, so that even if you had the individual who would be 
 absolutely honest and remain so to the end of time, and would not 
 charge one penny more than just the particular legitimate profit, and 
 would grind that business down that way, and he would do it with 
 the least possible amount of waste, you would still have a great item 
 of clerical expense in there that the Government can get rid of. 
 
 The Chairman. The Government could not get rid of it if it had 
 to establish the whole machinery de novo, would it? It would cost 
 hundred of millions? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. You mean to not condemn what we already have ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Oh, I should think it would cost quite a bit then. 
 
 The Chairman. Your idea is to simply utilize the present gov- 
 ernmental machinery and extend it so far as the growth and the 
 development of the country will permit of, putting the Government 
 into the transportation business so far as is now represented by the 
 express companies. Is that it? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes; in order to maintain that monopoly and to 
 get the large contracts that these concerns have with the railroads. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is, you think that the rates which the ex- 
 press companies have with the railroads are so much better than the 
 rates the Government is paying the railroads, it would put the Gov- 
 ernment to the disadvantage of the express companies in handling 
 business in competition with the express companies? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Absolutely. A tremendous disadvantage 1 The 
 express companies have a rate, I think, of about 0.74 of a cent a 
 pound, and the Government pays about 4.6 cents a pound. You see, 
 there is sufficient to return the whole. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Don't you think a zone system would greatly 
 reduce that difference ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. I do not know how that would work out — 
 whether it would or would not. The express companies practically 
 have a zone system. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes; they have a zone system. 
 
 The Chairman. Existing where it comes into competition? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. It is an arbitrary zone. What controls their 
 zones is the dividends and the competition, and what would control 
 the Government's zones would be the position on the map; but still 
 it is a zone system, the same, only on a different basis. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They charge what they can get and not what 
 they ought to have for the service rendered ? 
 
834 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Decidedly. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, if you will pardon me, before we leave 
 this : I was interested in your suggestion that the farmer might send 
 by parcel post small hampers of supplies from the individual in the 
 country to some individual in the city, either a relative or some one 
 he knew, or a consumer whom he solicited and secured. Now, would 
 you state what the small farmer in Pennsylvania would have that 
 he could make up and send by mail to the family living in a city — 
 will you mention some of the articles, if you please ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, he would practically be a shipper all the 
 year around. Now, if you begin, say, in the spring of the year, he 
 could have asparagus, lettuce, radishes, and things of that kind — 
 the early vegetables. Then he could follow that and make up a ship- 
 ment of fruit. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, excuse me. We will take them down — 
 asparagus, lettuce, and radishes. Is there anything else that you can 
 think of now ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, eggs, butter — he could ship those all the 
 year around. Then there are chickens. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You have named six articles. Now, what sized 
 package would that average? Would that average a package a day 
 or a package two or three times a week? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. That would depend entirely upon the family 
 to whom it was sent. If he had the custom of a large family he 
 would have to make shipments pretty often. He would not make a 
 shipment if he did not have the stuff. He can not send the egg until 
 it is laid, and he can not always control the laying, but he would send 
 just as he had the stuff and the opportunity. I do not think you 
 could specify any particular time, for it certainly would not be a 
 regular shipment. I do not see how it would. You see, he would 
 start in the spring with the early spring vegetables, and butter, eggs, 
 and chickens, and sometimes a bottle of cream, and things of that 
 kind. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, the chickens would be dressed or alive? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Oh, I think it would be dressed. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, in the summer time it would not be prac- 
 tical, of course, in the hot weather, to do that. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes, indeed ; if you had a system that had any 
 speed to it ; for instance, we are 66 miles from Philadelphia, and we 
 could send a chicken at 9.36 in the forenoon and at 12.09 it would be 
 in Philadelphia. It would be. delivered by mail service pretty soon 
 after its arrival in Philadelphia, and a chicken will not spoil in that 
 time. There is the great advantage of it, you could get the stuff 
 right to the consumer. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, don't you think butter would have a pretty 
 hard time some of these summer days? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Oh, no; not if it is wrapped in paper; not with 
 any speed like that ; good butter would not melt down in that time. 
 You could pretty near send ice cream in a paper package. Then, 
 you see, he would follow that up a little later with several different 
 kinds of berries and follow them up later with the different kinds 
 of fruit. 
 
PAKCEL, POST. 835 
 
 Senator Beistow. What rates would he have to have in order to 
 send these? You take a box of berries, for instance. How much 
 would it weigh? 
 
 Mr. McSpaeban. I think about 50 pounds. 
 
 Senator Beistow. But no family would use 50 pounds of berries. 
 
 Mr. McSpaeban. No ; but you would send two or three pounds — 
 make up a hamper of stuff, say 10 pounds. Just entirely according 
 to the wish of the people to whom you were sending— make up a 
 package for them. 
 
 The Chairman. Who would furnish the hamper? 
 
 Mr. McSpaeban. The person who did the shipping, I suppose. 
 
 Senator Beistow. How would he get his hamper back — have a 
 postal rate on it? 
 
 Mr. McSpaeban. Yes; if he wanted it. He would seldom get it 
 back. There are very few store boxes that come back. He would have 
 to figure that into the cost of his product. 
 
 Senator Beistow. You are contemplating, then, the Government, 
 as Senator Bourne said, absorbing the present express business and 
 enlarging it so as to serve all the people ? 
 
 Mr. McSpaeban. Yes ; I think that would be necessary. What we 
 want is to get a condition like they have in the rest of the world, but 
 just how to figure it out, I think, personally, that is the way it would 
 have to be done, but if there is any other way we will be glad to have 
 it done that way. All we want is the condition. 
 
 Senator Beistow. There is no doubt but what there is very great 
 waste in the distribution of farm products and veiy great expense 
 attached to it. Do you think that enlarging the present fourth-class 
 matter and reducing the rates for small distances very materially 
 and increasing the weight would be useful in the development of a 
 system such as you suggest? 
 
 Mr. McSpaeban. Well, what do you mean? By reducing it ma- 
 terially, you mean the price? 
 
 Senator Beistow. The rates. 
 
 Mr. McSpaeban. Yes. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Our rate now is 16 cents for any distance; say, 
 reduce it to 4 or 5 cents for a short distance ? 
 
 Mr. McSpaeban. You would soon limit yourself to the package. 
 The express companies now do it for 1.56 cents a pound. It would be 
 a mighty small package. 
 
 The Chairman. The express company charges 15 cents for fifteen- 
 sixteenths of a pound when the rate is prepaid. 
 
 Mr. McSpaeban. The express companies? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; that is competition. They come just a little 
 under our fourth-class mail rate. 
 
 Senator Beistow. The express companies do not take a package for 
 1 cent or 3 cents. 
 
 Mr. McSpaeean. No; I know they do not. I do not know of any 
 rate under a quarter. 
 
 The Chaieman. They have a rate of 15 cents for fifteen-sixteenths ' 
 of a pound where the package is prepaid, on a pound rate. Don't you 
 see that is 1 cent less than the 16-cent charge now for fourth-class 
 mail ? 
 
836 PAECEL POST. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Where was the Government when they were 
 doing that? Don't they have a monopoly up to 4 pounds? 
 
 The Chairman. No; not under the ruling of the court. The Gov- 
 ernment has a monopoly only on first-class mail matter. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You said the express companies do this business 
 for how much ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Their average rate is 1.56 cents a pound. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But that is of no significance whatever in com- 
 parison with what a parcel post would be, because that takes in train 
 loads of oranges, which reduces the average weight materially, but 
 they don't have any rate of 3 or 4 cents a pound for a single package. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Why, certainly. For instance, we can send a 
 package to Philadelphia weighing 15 or 20 pounds for 25 cents. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose it weighed only 1 pound ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. It would still be 25 cents, but they get very few 
 1-pound packages. They get them 10 pounds, 15 and 20 pounds. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is because they charge just as much for 1 
 pound as they would for 10 pounds. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose they could send it for 4 cents a pound, 
 or 2 pounds for 8 cents? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, that would simply get the trifling little 
 packages. It would not get a package of any size, and as soon as you 
 get up to 6 pounds you would be charging as much as they charge. 
 Four cents even would limit your package to 6 pounds. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You speak of your rate to Philadelphia. There 
 is no such rate from Rockville, Md., to Cumberland, Md., is there? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. How far is that ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. I should think that was 100 miles ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, I do not know. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is from the country into the great cities. 
 That is a special arrangement made because of certain traffic that 
 has been developed there; but for the country over they don't make 
 any such rate as that? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. I think so. I notice the tables, and I think 
 they do. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I think you are mistaken. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Now, for instance, here is from Havre de Grace 
 to Baltimore, 25 cents. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is between a small town and a large city? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Atlanta to Noonan, Ga., 30 cents. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is the same thing. What would it be from 
 Noonan to Havre de Grace? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Of course, I haven't the tables for them. 
 
 The Chairman. Here is a table, and the rate from New York to 
 Lawrence, N. J., 52.6 miles, is shown on potatoes, the freight rate for 
 a pound, as 25 cents; the express rate for a pound is 16 cents, pro- 
 viding it is prepaid, and 25 cents if collect. The rate is the same, 
 for freight, whether it is 1 pound or 250 pounds. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes ; anything under a carload, I suppose, isn't it? 
 
 The Chairman. No. The 250 pounds is the minimum charge. 
 That is the minimum of the charge. It is the same whether 1 pound 
 or 250 pounds. 
 
PARCEL POST. 837 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, what would be the rate from Lawrence, 
 N. J., to Havre de Grace? 
 
 The Chairman. I can not give you that from these tables. I can 
 give you a rate from Unionport, Ohio, 500 miles from New York. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is from a great city. The iniquity of the 
 rates of the express companies is between the small points. 
 
 The Chairman. In my opinion you never can establish a parcel- 
 post system that will be competitive with the freight. 
 
 Senator Bristow. No. 
 
 The Chairman. That is an impossibility, unless you run at an 
 enormous loss to the Government. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, there is no reason for it, because of the fact 
 that the articles that naturally would be sent by postal package are 
 of a character that they naturally pay the highest freight rates on, 
 anyhow, and even then they can afford to pay more and not be hurt ; 
 but they can not afford to pay the present rate. 
 
 The Chairman. But returning to your illustration of milk, you 
 would not expect your milk to be carried by parcel post in competi- 
 tion with milk trains that are made up specially and sent to the large 
 cities from the surrounding vicinities? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No ; here was the point I tried to make in regard 
 to the milk : The man who turns out 1,000 pounds of milk will use the 
 freight. The man who turns out 10 pounds of milk a day over the 
 use of his own family has to waste it. The fellow who turns out 10 
 pounds can get into communication with a family in the city and can 
 put that milk into butter and make up a little package of butter, 
 chickens, and eggs, or whatever he wants, and save every bit of that. 
 
 The Chairman. Wouldn't he take that 10 pounds of milk to the 
 creamery and manufacture his milk into butter? Wouldn't he get 
 better returns that way than by shipping that 10 pounds of milk by 
 parcel post, even if he had the opportunity? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No ; because, on an average, he would have to drive 
 a mile to the creamery, and a man can not hitch up his horse and drive 
 a mile to the creamery and back for 15 cents. That is about what 
 he would get. 
 
 The Chairman. Then he would have to have his milk packed so 
 that it would not spoil or disturb anything? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Oh, yes ; his milk would have to be packed so that 
 it would not disturb anything; he could do that in the packing. I, 
 possibly, was unfortunate in speaking of milk ; not that I wanted to 
 speak of any particular thing, but I knew the rates on milk better 
 than I did on vegetables or something of that kind, but possibly con- 
 veyed to the committee a wrong impression, because I do not expect 
 a man who would turn out 100,000 pounds of milk a year to send it 
 by parcel post, but the little producer who has his little service, who 
 can not afford to hitch up and drive to the creamery every morning, 
 his goods are perishable, and he is absolutely cut out from disposing 
 of them now. . 
 
 The Chairman. If you had this machinery you speak of m the 
 enlargement of the parcel-post system, would not the producer of the 
 10 pounds of milk ship it to the creamery and make butter out of it 
 and in that way make more out of it than he would by shipping his 
 milk to the nearest city ? 
 
838 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, he might ; but if he had asparagus he could 
 not ship it to the creamery. That rises out of a concrete example. 
 
 The Chairman. Depending upon the cost of transportation ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes; and I think it has worked out so in Ger- 
 many and other places. 
 
 The Chairman. He has to ship to a consignee. To my mind it does 
 not appeal to me that the producer is going to reach the consumer by 
 a parcel-post system. He has got to reach a consignee in the city — 
 some distributing people — in order for the business to be handled 
 practically, as business is done to-day. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. I think you are entirely mistaken in your supposi- 
 tion. As I have read, in Germany that is exactly what they do not do. 
 They send it right to their own people ; send it right to the consumers. 
 For instance, a mother has a boy in a town, and she will send little 
 baskets of stuff to him. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that is true, I grant you that, but the boy 
 is not going to consume all the surplus that is produced on the farm. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No; but any progressive farmer, be he large or 
 small, could very soon get in touch with enough people to dispose of 
 all of his surplus. For instance, he would ship one hamper this week 
 to one family, and, if he had two hampers a week, he would send one 
 to another family. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that is dependent upon the altruism of the 
 family. If the family wanted his produce regularly it will arrange 
 to have it come regularly and not at the convenience of the farmer 
 himself. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I think, Senator, there will be a great deal of 
 business developed that way. I have no doubt about it. I know in 
 country towns a great many farmers every Thursday or Saturday de- 
 liver certain of their farm products to the families, because they are 
 going into town. 
 
 The Chairman. That is in the towns ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes ; in the small vicinity. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Senator, you are wrong in what you say that he 
 must have it regularly. He don't have it regularly now. 
 
 The Chairman. He gets it regularly through his home grocer. 
 
 Mr. McSparean. Yes; if his grocer has it, but if he goes to his 
 grocer and he does not have it, then the consumer goes somewhere 
 else. Now, if he had an egg that had a chicken in it he would prob- 
 ably go without one for the rest of the time. 
 
 The Chairman. I grant you that ; but I do not see the connection 
 that would be necessary to establish a direct connection between the 
 producer and the consumer to eliminate the middleman. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, it would not all be done at once; it would 
 be a gradual process, but it is done now. I know of instances where 
 it is done. I know of a man who has 90 cows, who ships the entire 
 product of his 90 cows and all the eggs he can produce. 
 
 The Chairman. To one hotel or club ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No, sir ; he sends them through the express com- 
 panies direct to the consumer. He does not send a thing to the job- 
 ber, but puts everything up in little packages, has his own sawmill 
 and makes his own boxes, and ships them, and he has been doing that 
 for years. 
 
PARCEL, POST. 839 
 
 The Chairman. And he finds he makes more money per cow than 
 he would if he shipped everything to a commission merchant? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. He thinks so, and I think he does. He seems to 
 be a very prosperous man, and he is doing that and paying these 
 exorbitant express rates that we have to-day. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Here in Washington there are producers out in 
 the country who come to market with fresh eggs, chickens, and things 
 that they produce and they have their regular customers who go to 
 that market of a morning and get their articles. I know Mrs. Bris- 
 tow gets her eggs from a certain colored woman, and they are always 
 good eggs, but in case she finds any that are not good she knows where 
 they come from and makes a complaint. 
 
 The Chairman. But you have the middleman and the market man. 
 
 Senator Beistow. No ; she is on the outside of the market. 
 
 The Chaieman. Well, she is at the local market, whether inside 
 or outside. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, this city is large enough to have a market. 
 But what this gentleman has in mind is if this producer in the coun- 
 try could make up that little package which Mrs. Bristow wants and 
 could send it to her three times a week by this mail facility, it would 
 be delivered at the house, save the colored woman the trouble of 
 coming to town, and not having her standing around in the cold wait- 
 ing for the customers to come to town and save the customers the 
 expense of going down there to get what they want. What Mr. 
 McSparran wants to do is to get a connection between the producer 
 on the farm and the consumer in the city that is a cheaper and more 
 convenient way than the present system. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, you would have to add at once, in a city of 
 Washington's size, 50 delivery vehicles, automobiles and two-horse 
 wagons, that number being required to-day to take care of the dis- 
 tribution of the sales of 200 stores in this city. You probably would • 
 have to add a great many more than that. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That would depend, of course, on circumstances. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. What if you did ? 
 
 The Chairman. It takes time. This has to be a growth. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes; it has to be a growth. 
 
 Senator Beistow. The suggestion that we absorb the express com- 
 panies at once was based largely upon the theory that Mr. McSparran 
 thinks the Government ought to have the same rates with the rail- 
 roads for the handling of this business which the express companies 
 have. 
 
 The Chairman. No. Based, I think, upon the terms that the Gov- 
 ernment should have all that business so as to be able to reach an 
 intelligent tariff of prices that will pay for the service. Isn't that it? 
 
 Mr. McSpaeran. Well, that, and also the contracts. I think the 
 system of condemnation is a very plausible system because of the 
 fact that it would immediately give you these contracts. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I say there is a grave legal question there 
 which I am not qualified to pass upon. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. I am not, either ; but I believe it could be done. 
 
 The Chairman. But I have heard from some very able lawyers a 
 grave doubt as to whether you could condemn the contract. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes ; I think it could be done. 
 
840 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I think there is a very great weight in the propo- 
 sition that the Government is paying much more for the service to 
 the railroads than the express companies are paying, and if we had a 
 similar arrangement, which I think is entirely practical, of compen- 
 sating the railroads upon the same basis that the express companies 
 compensate them, it would be a very important matter in regard to 
 not only the fourth-class mail but the second-class mail. 
 
 The Chairman. Undoubtedly, but that matter is now being ascer- 
 tained by the Interstate Commerce Commission, regarding the express 
 companies. They have been some 18 months or more considering that 
 question and are in process now of ascertainment as to the actual cost 
 of operation, actual profits, etc. 
 
 Senator Bristow. According to the figures of the department, 
 which I simply quote — I do not quote them with my approval, be- 
 cause I do not admit that they are correct or sound — we are paying 
 about 9 cents a pound for the handling of second-class matter, while 
 the railroads are handling for a fourth of a cent a pound second-class 
 matter in competition with the United States Government. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Is it not nine one-hundredths of a cent for the 
 Government basis to the railroads? 
 
 Senator Bristow. It costs about 9 cents a pound. 
 
 The Chairman. And you say that the express companies are 
 handling 
 
 Senator Bristow. No; the railroads. 
 
 The Chairman. For a quarter of a cent a pound ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. For a quarter of a cent a pound, on short dis- 
 tances out of cities for daily papers. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, in order for the comparison to be of value, 
 it seems to me that you should take all the second-class matter 
 handled by the railroads themselves directly. Does that average a 
 quarter of a cent a pound? 
 
 Senator Bristow. No ; it is more than that. The lowest is a quarter 
 of a cent, a cent for four pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. The average, as I understand that is claimed by 
 the department, is nine cents a pound on second-class matter, the 
 expense to the Government. We would have to have the average that 
 the railroads are handling of the second-class matter to get a com- 
 parison. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The railroads do not handle it, unless they can 
 do it for less than the Government does. 
 
 The Chairman. Then they come into competition with the Govern- 
 ment. If Congress should enact legislation increasing the weight 
 limit of fourth-class matter from four pounds to eleven pounds and 
 should decrease the postal charges, now 1 cent per ounce, or at the 
 rate of 16 cents per pound, making a material decrease in the postal 
 rate, your grange, and as far as you know the granges of the country, 
 would welcome such an enlargement of the fourth-class mail matter 
 activity, would they not, with the expectation that as conditions justi- 
 fied the enlargement of that activity should continue ? In other words, 
 you would welcome any relief over what you believe to be the exist- 
 ing injustice? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. I think the granges, as a rule, would ; I would not 
 personally, but I think the granges would. 
 
PARCEL POST. 841 
 
 The Chairman. Personally you would rather have no legislation 
 at all until we can get legislation for the establishment of a govern- 
 mental monopoly without any weight limit at all, and the condemna- 
 tion, or absorption, or elimination of the express companies ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. I think it would be a whole lot harder to take 
 the second step after the first one was taken than to go to the root 
 of the matter at the beginning. If you had established that law 
 there would be a prejudice against tampering with it any further. 
 The express company rates have been exorbitant everywhere, and 
 everybody seems to feel that they have robbed the people, and to go 
 right to the bottom of it in the beginning 
 
 The Chairman . Assuming that the Interstate Commerce Commis- 
 sion had a right to order the express companies to reduce those rates, 
 you would advocate that being done, would you? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Do you mean making it, say, 8 cents a pound? 
 
 The Chairman. Whatever the rate might be, I mean such action 
 on the part of the Interstate Commerce Commission, and you would 
 advocate that being done if they had the authority and saw fit to 
 do so — you would not want to prevent any such action on their 
 part until the legislation was enacted by Congress eliminating the 
 express company entirely? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. I do not catch your point. 
 
 The Chairman. I say if the Interstate Commerce Commission 
 had the authority to take action to force the express companies to 
 reduce their present rates, you would advocate that being done ; you 
 would welcome such action on their part, would you not ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, the granges, speaking for the granges, they 
 would, but personally I would not. 
 
 The Chairman. You would rather the conditions remained just 
 as they are until legislation can be enacted absorbing the express 
 companies ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. As long as they are in the business they will 
 offer every obstruction that they can to giving the people the kind 
 of service that the Governments of the world have, because there 
 is money in it. If you go right at the root of the matter in the be- 
 ginning you would have a better show than you would have if you 
 attempted to amend the law. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you think the Government should do all 
 the transportation of the country and should own the railroads as 
 well? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No. 
 
 The Chairman. Where do you make your line of distinction be- 
 tween the two; where do you make your demarcation between the 
 Government entering into the transportation business and allowing 
 private enterprise to conduct the transportation business? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Simply because the express companies are para- 
 sites. They have no standing as a business themselves. They simply 
 do what the railroads should have done, but the railroads see more 
 money in it and allow the parasites to do it. They are parasites 
 on the whole business and should be lopped off. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the average of the express companies is 
 34 or 36 pounds in weight, as I understand, according to the find- 
 ings of the Interstate Commerce Commission; and you advise in- 
 21S45— vol 3—12 17 
 
842 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 creasing the weight of fourth-class mail matter to any weight; mak- 
 ing no limitation whatever on it. Now, where is your line of de- 
 marcation between your Government operation of the transportation 
 of the country and railroad operation of the transportation of the 
 country. In order to establish a monopoly — if it is a legal monop- 
 oly — you have got to have some line of demarcation. What would 
 it be? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. As to the railroads, the rates; as to the govern- 
 mental, the. people to furnish that service under departmental regu- 
 lation. The department could say, for instance, what a carrier on 
 a route that had business enough to run one horse and a wagon that 
 one horse could pull — should carry. On Christmas morning he 
 would find a ton of stuff at the end of his route; he would not be 
 supposed to go out and get it and 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose that they were perishable, where would 
 he be; then the owner would lose that material, would he not? 
 
 Mr. McSpaeran. The department would have to have the authority 
 to notify the owner that that particular package was there and was 
 perishable. There would have to be some latitude, because if his busi- 
 ness was such that he would have to drive two horses and some day 
 he found a 4-horse load at the end of his route, he would not be ex- 
 pected to take it away. And if there were 6 tons at the end of his 
 route, he could not be expected to take it away that day and no mat- 
 ter how you arranged it, the department would have to be given au- 
 thority sufficient to regulate the unevenness of the business, but the 
 average condition could be regulated, and the rate would fix the limit 
 as far as the size of the package and the weight of the package, etc., 
 are concerned. The weight would eliminate everything, except 
 in special circumstances, and then the Government would have to 
 hire a team or do the best they could to deliver the packages, just as. 
 the express companies would do. 
 
 The Chairman. Then it is not by legislation that you expect to 
 create a governmental monopoly of express company business, but it 
 is by administration ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. I think part of it is by legislation, a great many 
 of our laws get their efficiency from administration. They can not 
 be put in the body of the bill and must depend upon administration. 
 
 The Chairman. You, personally, are opposed to governmental 
 monopoly or operation of the transportation by the Government ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes ; I see no reason for it going into the freight 
 business. Now there is another point that I wanted to make — I am 
 taking up an awful lot of time ; and that was on the question of the 
 country merchant. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I shall be glad to hear you on that point, espe- 
 cially after we have heard Mr. Creasy at length. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. In the first place, the country merchant does his 
 business because of the fact that he fills a peculiar need. If every 
 householder was foresighted enough to know a week ahead what was 
 wanted there would not be any country merchant, because he would 
 simply buy that stuff wholesale. He would simply cut him out, but 
 because of the fact that the average householder and business man or 
 farmer does not look far enough ahead to keep himself supplied with 
 articles needed for immediate consumption 
 
PARCEL POST. 843 
 
 The Chairman. You predicate your statement on the assumption 
 that he always has on hand the necessary money to buy by whole- 
 sale. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. That would be the development. You know it 
 would pay him to get the money, even if he had to go to bank for it, 
 and the progressive business man would simply cut out the local mer- 
 chant, just on the principle of the middleman. He would cut him out 
 and go back of him, but because they do not do that there are articles 
 that they must have practically constantly, and those articles are the 
 articles that the country merchant supplies. 
 
 Now, as the condition is to-day. our transportation is in favor of 
 the mail-order house because of the fact that the mail-order house 
 man has a preferential freight rate. The man that lives a thousand 
 miles away can ship proportionately cheaper by freight, and that 
 is what the mail-order houses count on making their money out of; 
 not little shipments, but on shipments of a hundred pounds or over. 
 They can go that thousand miles a great deal cheaper proportionately 
 than the man that has to ship his goods from his wholesaler in the 
 near-by city, 50 or 100 miles, and as a consequence he has a decided 
 advantage over the retail merchant in the country to-day. 
 
 The Chairman. Does not the merchant have the same opportunity 
 of shipping his goods by freight that the mail-order house has? It 
 is an equal opportunity to everyone. It is no special privilege as far 
 as the rates are concerned. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No ; he ships his goods from his wholesaler and 
 he bases the rate on a short haul. The hauls of the mail-order houses 
 are long ; he ships out all over the country and he has to-day a pro- 
 portionate rate that is much cheaper than the retail merchant. It 
 is not a cheaper rate, but it is a proportionately cheaper rate. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you give a concrete illustration of that? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. For instance, our grange at home buys buck- 
 wheat flour in New York City, a distance of 250 or 300 miles, and 
 we pay 15 cents a hundred pounds to bring that down to Peach 
 Bottom, Pa., and it costs us 11 cents a hundred to ship a bushel of 
 potatoes from Peach Bottom to Philadelphia, 56 miles. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, there is a difference between buckwheat 
 flour and the potatoes in classification, is there not? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Possibly there would be; I do not know about 
 
 that. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What would it cost you to get 100 pounds of 
 buckwheat flour from Philadelphia, 56 miles? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. I do not know that. There might be a little 
 difference in classification; that would make a little difference, but 
 essentially the idea is correct. The long-haul rates come on the 
 long hauls. Now, in southern Lancaster County there is absolutely 
 no competition; the Pennsylvania Bailroad has everything. There 
 is no competition within reach with a wagon. You could not haul 
 your stuff and get into any competition ; but there is a sort of compe- 
 tition if they have not gotten it all absorbed in the trunk lines. 
 
 Senator Bristow. There is no competition anywhere in the rail- 
 
 Mr.' McSparran. I guess not, anywhere; but there has been and 
 those'through rates are arranged more nearly on the basis of com- 
 petition than these local rates. 
 
844 PAECEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, suppose in Portland, Oreg., I wanted to 
 buy 100 pounds of hatchets from a manufacturer. Would not I get 
 the same freight rate from the manufacturer in Dayton, Ohio, that 
 I would from the mail-order houses in Dayton, Ohio ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. You most assuredly would. 
 
 The Chairman. Where does the mail-order house get any advan- 
 tage in the freight rate from Portland, Oreg., over the manufac- 
 turer in Dayton, Ohio ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Because you are buying 100 pounds' worth of one 
 commodity. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose I am making up a mixed order of the 
 same classification, what then ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. You would not likely find it in one house; you 
 could not do it. You could not buy your hatchets and your plows 
 from the same man. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I could have the order assembled there, 
 could I not? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. I do not know about that. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the advantage that the mail-order house has 
 is the advantage of assembling and taking advantage of the minimum 
 rates, 100 pounds or 250 pounds, or whatever the classification may 
 provide ; that is the advantage, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. I think so. 
 
 The Chairman. And the great basis of their advantage ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. I think so. 
 
 The Chairman. I think so, too. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. You see the person that goes to the country store 
 would take just the articles that he wanted, just a small article, 
 weighing maybe 5 pounds, and the country storekeeper has to see 
 his goods very largely, while he can not go a thousand miles away and 
 buy his stuff. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not see where the mail-order house will be 
 benefited by increasing the scope or activity of our present fourth- 
 class mail matter unless you bring it down to a rate that is competi- 
 tive with the freight rate. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No; I do not. I think the mail-order houses have 
 a better show to-day than they would if given a system of parcel 
 post. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly elaborate on your views on that 
 point ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. The country storekeeper has all the time had the 
 competition of the people who are foresighted enough to do a partial 
 wholesale business. For instance, in the country there is scarcely a 
 family that does not make a periodical visit to some town to shop, 
 but that has not killed the country store. The department stores m 
 the last generation have developed a system of delivery way outside 
 of our cities, and they have not killed the country stores in those dis- 
 tricts. There is the free delivery, and that has not killed the country 
 stores. Now, to my mind, the fact that all the provident activities 
 of the country people in going to town to shop and doing their busi- 
 ness wholesale, as the Grange says, they advise going back to the 
 wholesaler, lumping their orders together, and cut out as many of the 
 middle men as possible. They advise that, and do it ; but at the same 
 time, with all that, the country merchant nourishes and to-day in 
 
PARCEL POST. 845 
 
 communities where more of that is done than in communities where 
 less of it is done, you find the country store advancing. I know, for 
 instance, one community where there s a Grange of 350 members, and 
 they had a condition where the country storekeeper would not keep an 
 up-to-date store and the line of goods that they wanted. They simply 
 went into the wholesale business themselves and they distributed 
 thousands and thousands of dollars' worth of goods to their mem- 
 bers. To-day they have an up-to-date store right in that community, 
 and they handle the stuff they are buying and handle it at right 
 prices. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that a cooperative store? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No ; it is a private institution ; but that man met 
 those conditions because he had the idea that the very best house- 
 keepers would not think of everything and he supplied that need. 
 
 The Chairman. But you forced him to do it by your cooperative 
 action ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. He was forced by that wholesale activity, and as 
 % consequence it did not kill his trade but it developed it. It simply 
 made him alive to the interests and the necessities of the time, and 
 he came up to the mark. So far as the parcel-post system is con- 
 cerned the only relation that the retailer in the country holds to the 
 consumer is can he get his goods any cheaper now ? He can, because 
 there are lines of goods that he can not keep in stock which are ex- 
 pensive, and he does not have a sufficient call for them, while he could 
 if he had a parcel-post system that would deliver that parcel to him 
 in package form just as quickly as possible after he had a call for it. 
 He could catch that sale and he could make that sale, and all of his 
 profit would not got to the express company in the difference in the 
 amount of transportation he would have to pay over the freight. 
 
 The Chairman. That would be in the nature of paying for an 
 advertisement to hold his customers for that special order? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes; and he would get a decided advantage, be- 
 cause he would have an arrangement by which a house would answer 
 his telephone immediately and by next mail get him that article, so 
 that his customer would not go off somewhere else for it. Therefore, 
 I think that is the summing up of the whole relation of the retail 
 merchant. He doesn't lose his trade and his custom by these whole- 
 sale processes, while on the other hand, he is absolutely cut off from 
 the use of the express unless he gives them the whole profit. He has 
 no means by which he can get a package cheaply and quickly. 
 
 The Chairman. You think it would be directly to his benefit in- 
 stead of to his detriment? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. I think I do see this little disadvantage; if the 
 limit was put so low that he could not get a package that would 
 answer that purpose, then the community all around would enjoy a 
 difference, because they would not likely want so much. If he were 
 sending off this man's order to-day he would likely send off one more 
 order or possibly two, and hold the other for the next purchaser, and, 
 as a consequence, he would want a little larger limit, possibly the 11- 
 pound limit would not be quite just to the storekeeper, because there 
 would not be many of those odd packages of goods that he would 
 order in a hurry that he could get under the 11-pound limit, but under 
 a comprehensive system that would not be tied down by a low limit, 
 
846 PARCEL POST. 
 
 he would get an advantage from all these things and be in closer touch 
 with the basis of supplies. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Now, it has been represented to us that in Ger- 
 many and England, where these systems are much wider in scope and 
 much more generally used it has resulted practically in the elimina- 
 tion of the country merchant, and all the business is consolidated in 
 the cities in the great department stores. You seem to have investi- 
 gated conditions over there ; has that been the result of your investi- 
 gation ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, only in so far as I have been able to see it, 
 as it refers to suburban business, which is done now in this country. 
 You find that right around any of our big cities. The stores are tied 
 down to that supplying of absolutely immediate needs. They have 
 scarcely any other business, because the people will jump on the 
 trolley and run in town on such little provocation and for the pur- 
 chase of such a little bit of goods. The country merchant is tied 
 down pretty closely, and as I have observed — and I have read of it — 
 in the foreign countries their big cities are so close together; that 
 same condition is here in this country and we will always have it 
 around a big city where they have trolley accommodations and every- 
 thing of that kind. The storekeeper will be at a disadvantage. He 
 has that now in our present system. 
 
 The Chairman. The purchaser will go where he sees the largest 
 amount of goods to select from and on the assumption that he will 
 get it cheaper, too, and in a larger variety. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes; but when you go back in the country dis- 
 tricts and we have those large distances in this country, then that 
 condition does not hold; it does not hold now and I do not think it 
 would hold under a different condition because the conditions would 
 not change so radically that it would offset the whole order of busi- 
 ness. That is all I have to say. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you, Mr. McSparran. 
 
TESTIMONY OF ME. J. T. AILMAN, SECRETARY OF THE PENNSYL- 
 VANIA STATE GRANGE. 
 
 (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Please state your age, residence, and present occu- 
 pation, Mr. Ailman. 
 
 Mr. Ailman. I am 62 years old, reside in Juniata County, Pa., and 
 my primary occupation, at least, is that of farmer. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any official connection with any associ- 
 ation in Pennsylvania? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. Yes, sir; I am secretary of the Pennsylvania State 
 Grange, and have been for many years. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly give the committee the benefit 
 of your views, either personal or as far as the Grange is concerned, 
 relative to the enlargement of the scope of our present fourth-class 
 mail-order parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. Well, I think that Mr. Creasy has stated that about 
 as clearly as I can. I agree personally with what he expresses as 
 the general statement, I think I would favor increasing the present 
 facilities if we can not get anything better, as a step in the right 
 direction of securing something better bye and bye, It has been the 
 principle, and we have acted on it to a considerable extent, that if 
 we can not get the whole loaf we will take a piece at a time ; we would 
 like, of course, to have the whole loaf. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you believe it is practicable, even if it were 
 possible to secure the legislation to make an immediate step, or do 
 you believe it should be a growth necessarily in the enlargement of 
 its scope? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. I think it should be a growth, yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, as far as your organization is concerned, 
 you believe that it is practically the unanimous opinion of the or- 
 ganization, and that it is their desire, and practically indorsed unani- 
 mously by them, that we should have legislation, for instance, in- 
 creasing the present weight limit of fourth-class matter to 11 pounds, 
 and decreasing the rates of postage, providing a zone system were 
 established ? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. Well, I think so ; very largely so. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you believe it to be the opinion practically 
 of the members of the Grange that the Government should absorb, 
 by condemnation or otherwise, the activities now enjoyed by the ex- 
 press companies? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. As far as they have looked into it, certainly. My 
 own opinion is that they should, emphatically. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it the opinion of the members of your organ- 
 ization that the Government should conduct the transportation busi- 
 ness of the country ? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. I do not think the majority of them would go so far 
 as that. I do not know that they have given enough consideration to 
 
848 PAECEL POST. 
 
 the subject to have a decided opinion on it. I would go to that 
 length myself. 
 
 The Chairman. You personally believe in the governmental owner- 
 ship of railroads in all transportation facilities? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. Yes, sir. I do not think we should take them over 
 suddenly; we would have a pretty big proposition on our hands to 
 do that ; but we should go in that direction as rapidly as possible. 
 
 The Chairman. Would an increase from 4 pounds to 11 pounds 
 in weight, and a decrease in postage, in your judgment, be a direct 
 benefit to the members of the Grange and their families in your 
 States? 
 
 Mr. Ailmak. It would be to some extent ; T could not tell how great 
 an extent. Personally, it would be quite an advantage. As secre- 
 tary of the State Grange I have to send a large number of small 
 packages. Of course, when the packages weigh over 4 pounds 
 they go to the express companies. The mail car will come in the 
 morning and take my mail; if I have a 5, 6, or 10 pound package, 
 I must go to the express office and get that package off. What is 
 true in my own individual case, of course must be true of my neigh- 
 bors. 
 
 The Chairman. You are on a rural route? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And does the rural carrier ever take any of these 
 packages for you as a personal convenience to you ? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. He does not dare to. 
 
 Senator Bryan. How is that? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. He does not dare to, owing to a ruling of the de- 
 partment. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I understood that was quite a universal practice 
 in the postal carriage? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. It is not in our place. They did so a number of years 
 ago, and complaint was made by the local merchants to the depart- 
 ment here in Washington, and it was shut off. I can not send a pack- 
 age that weighs over four pounds to the express company or to the 
 store in the village, or anywhere else. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I remember distinctly when the order was issued 
 forbidding them from carrying such packages. They were becoming 
 agents for one merchant against another. The man that gave the 
 largest commission for the sale of his goods would get the business. 
 
 Mr. Ailman. When the route was first established I could do that, 
 but it was shut off six or eight years ago. 
 
 The Chairman. Could you ask the rural carrier, when he was 
 going in town, to get you a package which you had, over the tele- 
 phone, asked to have put up for you, weighing more than 4 pounds, 
 of any one article, and would he bring it out ? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. No; not if it weighed anything at all, 4 pounds or 
 half a pound. I would have to put postage stamps on it. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any questions that you gentlemen of 
 the committee would like to ask Mr. Ailman ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. The rural parcel post would be in itself a great 
 advantage, would it not? That is, if you had a reasonably low rate 
 for packages in town that could be brought out by the rural carriers 
 and articles that you would send to town by him by putting a stamp 
 on such articles; it would be a very great advantage to the farmers, 
 would it not ? 
 
PARCEL POST. 849 
 
 Mr. Ailman. It would be some advantage; yes. 
 
 Senator Beistow. And do you not think it would be an advantage 
 to the merchants as well ; that is, the local merchants in the town ? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. Not any great advantage that I can see. If it were 
 sent by mail I would have to go to town to get it. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Couldn't you telephone in for packages and re- 
 ceive them that way which otherwise you might not get if you did 
 not have that facility? 
 _ Mr. Ailman. Possibly; there would be occasionally something ; yes, 
 sir. I think that our local merchants are unduly alarmed and con- 
 cerned. Certainly the mail-order business is increasing, and their 
 business has proportionately increased since the mail-order business 
 has been established. As a concrete example, the little town of 
 Thompsontown has the same population now that it had when I was 
 a boy. At that time there was one little store in the place. Now 
 there are two stores, and either one of them has the capacity of three 
 times what this little store had when I was a boy, each one doing 
 fully six times the business previously done with the same population. 
 The fact is that the population in the rural districts is decreasing; 
 each census shows a decrease of population instead of an increase. 
 
 The Chaibman. And vet the business of these stores has increased 
 600 per cent? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. Yes, sir. The mail-order house has quite a little of 
 the local trade in that neighborhood ; the granges do a little business, 
 too; at the same time the business of the stores has increased. 
 
 The Chaieman. But the nature of the business of the mail-order 
 house — I ask for information — is it goods that the people can not get 
 in their own local country stores ? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. No. I think that the most of them will make up a 
 composite order so that it will weigh 100 pounds or more; perhaps 
 containing some articles that they can not get from the country stores. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Why do they get up that order then and send it 
 off? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. Because they can do it cheaper. 
 
 Senator Beistow. The local merchants dispute that ; they say they 
 do sell the same thing for less money. 
 
 Mr. Ailman. Possibly ; when they put up this composite order, in 
 that order they may have two or three things that they can get 
 cheaper at the country store, but so as to get something that they can 
 not get at the local store the order is made up, and they think in the 
 entire shipment that they are saving something. 
 
 Senator Beistow. If the mail-order houses should have a lower rate 
 and the hundred pounds were not required, it would be to the advan- 
 tage of the local merchant in some instances, would it not ? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. Certainly. Our local merchants have fostered the 
 unnecessary middleman, very largely. When I was a boy they would 
 take a trip once a year to the city and lay in a supply of goods, but 
 now the cigar man comes around and sells cigars to-day, and the 
 candy man comes along maybe the same day and sells candy, and some 
 other man comes along representing some other line of goods, and the 
 storekeepers buy their supplies from these traveling salesmen. It is 
 estimated that there are 100,000 drummers on the roads of Pennsyl- 
 vania to-day, and the local merchant is simply taxing the community 
 to keep those fellows going. Then if he happens to run out of a par- 
 
850 PARCEL POST. 
 
 ticular article before the drummer comes around again he can simply 
 drop a line to the wholesale house and get his goods shipped direct. 
 
 Senator Bryan. And you believe that that causes a higher price to 
 the consumer than the old custom of going to the cities and ordering 
 ahead ? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. Yes; but the old custom is not as necessary now as 
 it was in those days, because now he can drop his line to the whole- 
 saler in the city and have sent out samples of calicoes and such mate- 
 rials, and he would not need to go to the city as much as he did, but 
 even if he did, his one trip to the city would cost the community a 
 great deal less than the dozen or more traveling men that he patron- 
 izes ; they travel on the cars, too, and stop at the best hotels, etc. 
 
 Senator Bet an. It may be that all the merchants though would not 
 have to go to the cities; maybe a dozen merchants would have to go 
 instead of the dozen traveling men coming to see them. Of course 
 in the case of one individual merchant it would be cheaper for him 
 to go and return than for a dozen drummers to come and see him, but 
 in a city or a town perhaps a dozen could go cheaper than all the 
 merchants going to the city. 
 
 Mr. Ailman. They would not need to do very much going. Be 
 that as it may, that increases the cost of the goods to the consumer. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You feel that the traveling salesman increases the 
 cost of the goods to the consumer? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. Most assuredly. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any idea what percentage of the volume 
 of business in your community is done by mail-order houses ? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. No, sir; I have not. 
 
 The Chairman. It is a very small percentage, is it not, even under 
 present conditions ? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. I think so. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any further statements you wish to 
 make, Mr. Ailman ? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. No, sir ; except I should say that the distribution of 
 wealth is the great problem before this country. We have got to 
 solve it and when it is solved we will have a better system than we 
 have now, both in the distribution of products and the monopolizing 
 of the profits that we have at the present time. It was the great 
 question of civilization in all the past, and so many of the ancient 
 nations failed to solve it, and they went down. I hope we may get 
 it solved in our country, and if we get it solved correctly I do not 
 think we will have that parasite, the express company, which we have 
 now. The more direct method, as a matter of course, we have be- 
 tween the producer and the consumer, the better it will be. 
 
 The Chairman. You believe, as far as legislation is concerned, in 
 the fundamental principle of an equal opportunity to every citizen, 
 and then the individual success depends upon the individual limita- 
 tion? 
 
 Mr. Ailman. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you, Mr. Ailman. 
 
 (The committee thereupon at 1.15 o'clock p. m. adjourned to meet 
 at the call of the chairman.) 
 
FRIDAY, DECEMBER 29, 1911. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), Senator Bris- 
 tow, and Senator Nathan P. Bryan. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. GEORGE P. HAMPTON, REPRESENTING THE 
 FARMERS' NATIONAL COMMITTEE ON POSTAL REFORM AND 
 THE POSTAL EXPRESS FEDERATION, 2 WEST ONE HUNDRED 
 AND FIRST STREET, NEW YORK CITY. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Hampton, it will be necessary that you first 
 be sworn. 
 
 (Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age, residence, and 
 present occupation? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. My age is 52, I live in New York City, and my 
 official address is 51 Bliss Building, Washington, D. C. My occupa- 
 tion is secretary of the Farmers' National Committee on Postal 
 Reform and the Postal Express Federation. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Hampton, you appear before the committee, 
 then, in your official capacity, designated here to express the views 
 of the associations you represent, as I understand ? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Exactly ; I am here officially to do that. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you a statement prepared to submit to the 
 committee giving the views of the association that you represent 
 relative to the question of parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Yes, sir; I will say this much, however, that, owing 
 to the shortness of time between the call and my presentation of this 
 argument, I found it impossible to submit it for the approval of our 
 executive council, with the exception of the chairman of that council, 
 Mr. Creasy, with whom I went over it. Otherwise, the statement 
 that I am submitting here has not been submitted to the committee, 
 but, so far as I am able to judge, it expresses their ideas exactly, and 
 I tried to confine myself strictly to the instructions that were given 
 me. 
 
 The Chairman. How long a time will it take you to submit to 
 the members of the committees of your organizations copies of your 
 statement in order to procure from them information as to their con- 
 currence in or disapproval of the statement? Can you do it within 
 a week or ten days ? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Well, within a week. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly do so and notify me, as chairman 
 of the Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads, the result of such 
 submission, namely, whether they concur fully in the views you have 
 presented, in order that I may insert that in conjunction with your 
 statement ? 
 
 851 
 
852 parcel, post. 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Yes, sir. 1 
 
 The Chairman. Will yoti kindly read, for the information of the 
 committee, the statement you have prepared ? 
 Mr. Hampton (reading) : 
 
 Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen of the Committee: I represent the Farmers' 
 National Committee on Postal Reform and the Postal Express Federation. I 
 am the secretary of both organizations and the executive officer in charge of 
 their headquarters and campaign work. The Farmers' National Committee on 
 Postal Reform was organized one year ago under the auspices of the Conference 
 of Progressive State Granges for the purpose of uniting the farmers of the 
 country in a joint effort to secure the enactment by Congress of a satisfactory 
 parcel-post law. The conference provided for the organization of the committee 
 at its annual meeting at Atlantic City. N. J., in November, 1910, by the adoption 
 of the following resolutions : 
 
 "Resolved, That the executive committee of the conference be, and hereby is, 
 instructed to take any and all steps that may be expedient to insure practical 
 results in securing legislation along the lines of grange demands or for the coop- 
 eration of farmers and the people generally to secure any important measure of 
 farm betterment, as set forth in the grange declaration of purposes, or in reso- 
 lutions adopted by the National Grange, or by this conference. Especially do 
 we appeal for united, nation-wide action in favor of the adoption of a modern 
 parcel post, the establishment of the Oregon system of government, tariff reform, 
 and the conservation of our natural resources." 
 
 " Whereas the State grange executive committees of Washington, Pennsyl- 
 vania, and Maine have indorsed the plan of a national committee on parcel post 
 to prosecute a nation-wide campaign for the grange plan of postal reform and 
 have recommended that the State granges represented in this conference proceed 
 at once to organize the nucleus of such a committee : Therefore 
 
 "Resolved, That the above recommendations are hereby adopted and that 
 Brother George P. Hampton be, and hereby is appointed secretary of said com- 
 mittee and instructed to proceed to formulate a plan of action and take all 
 necessary steps to secure the cooperation of all persons or associations that will 
 join with the progressive grange States in securing the postal improvements 
 demanded." 
 
 Promptly following this action organization of the committee was perfected, 
 with C. S. Stetson, master of Maine State Grange; William T. Creasy, master of 
 Pennsylvania State Grange; F. P. Woleott, master Kentucky State Grange; 
 John Morris, master Colorado State Grange; C. E. Spence, master Oregon State 
 Grange ; C. B. Kegley, master Washington State Grange ; and H. F. Baker, 
 chairman of the executive committee Michigan State Grange, and H. L. Loucks, 
 of South Dakota, president and vice president of the conference, ex officio mem- 
 bers. Mr. Kegley was elected chairman of the committee and George P. Hamp- 
 ton secretary. The secretary's office is in the Bliss Building, Washington, D. C. 
 Subsequently George R. Malone, master South Dakota State Grange, was made 
 a member of the executive committee, and Senator Obadiah Gardner, as the 
 newly elected president of the Conference of Progressive State Granges, is by 
 virtue of his office also a member of the committee. 
 
 Permit me briefly to call your attention to the representative character of the 
 members of the executive committee. The Maine State Grange is the largest 
 State farm organization, in proportion to population, in the country, having a 
 member for every 11 inhabitants in the State, men, women, and children. The 
 Washington State Grange is the largest farm organization on the Pacific coast, 
 and the second largest on that coast is the Oregon State Grange. The other 
 State organizations directly represented on the committee, both because of their 
 representative character and geographical position, give the farmers of all 
 sections representation from the Atlantic to the Pacific. 
 
 Immediately after the organization of this committee in January, 1910, in 
 this city, a conference was held with the officers and legislative council of the 
 National Farmers' Educational and Cooperative Union, the leading farm or- 
 ganization of the Southern States, and with important State organizations in 
 the Far West. A common plan of action was approved and active cooperation 
 and joint action to secure the desired legislation agreed upon. In this confer- 
 ence 27 State Farmers' Unions were directly represented personally by the 
 
 1 Not yet received. 
 
PARCEL POST. 853 
 
 State presidents or by other State officers, and it was presided over by Mr. 
 Charles Barrett of Georgia, the president of the National Farmers' Union. 
 Thus the union of the farmers of the nation in support of legislation that will 
 secure a parcel post of practical value is practically completed. 
 
 But the necessity of a union or federation of all friends of a parcel post had 
 become increasingly apparent, and the feeling that such an organization, pledged 
 to definite, practical legislative recommendations, should be organized had 
 become quite general. This desire took definite form at the conference on parcel 
 post held under the auspices of the Postal Progress League in this city on 
 April 24-25, 1911. All the farm organizations above referred to participated in 
 this conference, and leading advocates of a modern parcel post from all parts of 
 the country were there, and it was thoroughly representative of the manufac- 
 turing, commercial, and agricultural interests of the entire country. After a 
 thorough discussion and careful consideration in the committee, a general set 
 of principles were formulated and adopted. 
 
 " That this conference urges upon Congress that it favors the widest exten- 
 sion of the postal function of the Government in the form of a postal express 
 for the carriage of parcels. 
 
 " That among the essential features of such a system we feel called upon to 
 insist upon the following: 
 
 " 1. Complete monopoly in the postal system for the transportation of all 
 matter by law made mailable. 
 
 •' 2. Rates therefor sufficient to pay the cost of the service. 
 
 " 3. Provision for the insurance of mail matter at reasonable rates. 
 
 "4. And further, since the express companies under their contracts with 
 the railways are securing an average rate of three-fourths of a cent per pound, 
 and the Postal Department is paying an average of 4 cents per pound for mail 
 matter. Congress is urged to consider whether the postal function should not 
 properly be extended to include the express service, thus securing for the trans- 
 portation of parcels the cheap rail rates of the express companies." 
 
 The conference also adopted, on the recommendation of the committee on 
 permanent organization, the resolutions providing for the organization of the 
 Postal Express Federation, as follows : 
 
 " Resolved, That an organization be perfected to be known as the Postal 
 Express Federation, to be composed of all persons, corporations, and associa- 
 tions interested in the establishment of means whereby the Government of the 
 United States shall, through its postal service, carry parcels and packages at 
 reasonable rates ; and be it 
 
 " Resolved, That a temporary executive committee of five be elected at this 
 meeting, with power to appoint subcommittees to represent the several States 
 and Territories of the United States of America, and to perfect a suitable or- 
 ganization for the end desired. 
 
 " Signed by the committee : F. W. Burkart, Buffalo, N. Y., chairman ; W. A. 
 Foster, Washington, D. C. ; George J. Kindel, Denver, Colo. ; James L. Cowles, 
 New York." 
 
 The committee elected was William T. Creasy, Catawissa, Pa. ; F. F. Ingram, 
 Detroit, Mich. ; George J. Kindel, Denver, Colo. ; F. W. Burkart, Buffalo, N. Y. ; 
 George P. Hampton, New York, N. Y. 
 
 The federation has since perfected its organization with J. L. Hudson, Detroit, 
 Mich., president J. L. Hudson Co., president ; Frank B. Marsh, 74 Reade Street, 
 New York, president Manufacturing Perfumers' Association, treasurer; George 
 P. Hampton, Washington, D. C, secretary Farmers' National Committee on 
 Postal Reform, secretary. Executive Committee: F. F. Ingram, Detroit, Mich., 
 president F. F. Ingram Co., chairman; Wm. T. Creasy, master Pennsylvania 
 State Grange, Catawissa, Pa.; George J. Kindel, Kindel Manufacturing Co., 
 Denver, Colo. ; C. S. Stetson, master Maine State Grange, Greene, Me. ; C. 
 B. Kegley, master Washington State Grange, Palouse, Wash.; and the president, 
 secretary, and treasurer, ex officio. 
 
 Mr Chairman, the above is presented for the consideration of the committee 
 in order that you may have in this condensed form evidence that the demand 
 for legislation establishing a modern parcel post is general throughout the 
 country and also that the manufacturing, commercial, and agricultural in- 
 terests are getting together and uniting through the Postal Express Federation 
 in support of a practical, adequate parcel post or postal express— we prefer 
 the latter term as more fittingly expressing the character of the service we 
 desire the Government to establish. 
 
854 PAECEL POST. 
 
 The federation stands upon its enunciation of general principles as I have 
 read them, desiring that this committee draft, a bill In harmony therewith. 
 
 Mr. Chairman, we ask this committee to report a bill embodying the recom- 
 mendations of the Postal Express Federation and its affiliated organizations. 
 In submitting a statement as to why you should do this, I desire to a.void 
 wearying you with a repetition of the general arguments in favor of a general 
 parcel post, with all of which, not only the members of this committee, but 
 Members of Congress generally, are familiar, and confine my argument to 
 answering what seems to me to be the main objection to any thorough-going 
 adequate parcel-post legislation. If these objections can be shown to have 
 no foundation in fact, then the only objection to this legislation at all worthy 
 the consideration of Congress will be removed. 
 
 The two main objections, as I have noted them, are: 
 
 1. That the enactment of any of the parcel-post bills proposed would inevi- 
 tably result in an enormous deficit in the postal revenue. 
 
 2. That it would foster the development of mail-order houses and be de- 
 structive of the small retail merchants, especially the rural merchants. 
 
 Answering the first objection, so far as I am aware, Congress has never 
 hesitated to enact legislation providing for the expenditure of large appropri- 
 ations from the public funds, without any possibility of a direct return, when 
 it has been demonstrated to its satisfaction that the public welfare would be 
 best served by such expenditures. The whole history of Congress is full of 
 such instances, and it is unnecessary for me to cite special Instances. There- 
 fore, if it can be shown that the public welfare would be conspicuously served 
 by the establishment of a general parcel post or postal express, which would 
 place this country in that respect on a parity with the most favored nations of 
 the world, even at the cost of a heavy deficit in the first instance, we submit 
 that Congress should not hesitate to enact the necessary legislation without 
 further delay. 
 
 The organizations I represent are strongly opposed to wasteful or useless ex- 
 penditures of the public funds, and desire that the Government shall be eco- 
 nomically administered. But they resent this reasonable, businesslike attitude 
 toward public expenditures being construed as niggardliness toward expendi- 
 tures that are unquestionably necessary in promoting the public welfare. 
 They resent still more strenuously this argument of a possible deficit being 
 made a barrier to the enactment of legislation for the establishment of a 
 modern parcel post, which they are firmly convinced is for the benefit of the 
 consumer, as it will be a potent factor in reducing the cost of living, and it is 
 necessary to give the farmers and rural merchants a square deal. We submit, 
 Mr. Chairman, that this question as to whether there would be a deficit should 
 not deter Congress for a moment from enacting this legislation. 
 
 But will there be a deficit ? I submit, gentlemen, that no argument yet put 
 forward by any member of the Government has proved that there will be. 
 I concede that no general parcel-post bill based on a flat rate, at any rate 
 proposed, or at a rate that would be of any practical value to the public, could 
 be operated without a loss unless it was extended to the rural districts. The 
 rural delivery is now conducted at a heavy loss. The Postmaster General, in 
 his 3910 annual report stated that " next to the heavy loss resulting from low 
 postage on second-class mail, the principal inroad into the profits of the 
 poslal service is that made by the excessive cost of rural delivery." I presume 
 this committee has an official estimate of what the aggregate of that loss is. 
 
 The profit of operating a general parcel post at any rate that could be safe- 
 guarded from the competition of the express companies would wipe out the 
 loss on the rural routes, and if the operation of such a general parcel post in 
 the urban districts should be at a loss corresponding to the present deficit on 
 the rural routes, the net result would be no increase in the present loss in postal 
 revenues. If the parcel-post profits from the rural districts should be larger 
 than the deficit in the urban districts, as would most probably be the case, then 
 there would be a net profit to the Government. 
 
 Mr. Chairman, the farmers have been largely blamed for the deficit in the 
 postal revenues owing to the enormous deficit in operating the rural delivery, 
 but we affirm that the blame is unjust and protest agaiust it. We admi' the 
 heavy deficit, but have pointed out to Congress again and again, and now point 
 out, that a parcel post or postal express — an indispensable necessity to the 
 dwellers on the rural routes — would wipe out that deficit. The responsibility 
 for this deficit, Mr. Chairman, rests squarely on Congress. And we say further, 
 that if the opposition in Congress to the establishment of a general parcel 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 
 855 
 
 post based on consideration for the expenditure of the public funds is sincere, 
 that it is the duty of Congress at this session to grapple with this problem of 
 deficit in operating the rural routes, and enact legislation that will wipe it out. 
 The legislation we are here lo ask you, to recommend to Congress wiJl do it. 
 
 So far as the rural routes are concerned, the operation of a generally service- 
 able parcel post would yield a profit that would wipe out the large deficit in 
 that branch of the service, but we admit that transferring the deficit to the 
 urban service, although it would mean no net loss and would probably show a 
 good net profit, is in a measure, only begging the question. The urban service 
 should also be operated without loss, if that is possible, having due regard to 
 the public welfare. I submit that it is possible, but I do not believe it to be 
 possible unless due care is taken to guard against loss from the free compe:ition 
 of the express compaines. 
 
 The argument that because parcel post, uuder varying conditions, has been 
 made a conspicuous success in other countries, we can make a financial success 
 of a parcel post in this country if we adopt the same weight limits and rates is 
 fallacious. This would be true if conditions were the same in this country as in 
 the country with which comparison is made. But conditions are not the same. 
 They differ radically. Take Germany, for example, which on the whole has 
 perhaps the most perfect parcel post or postal express system of any country. 
 Conditions in this country and Germany differ in three important particulars. 
 
 1. The area of Germany is compact ; that of the United States widely 
 extended, covering an area as large as all Europe. 
 
 2. In Germany the railroads are owned by the Government, insuring to the 
 post office department low costs for railroad postal charges. In this country 
 the railroads are privately owned and the railroad charges for transporting the 
 mail, in comparison with corresponding charges in Germany, excessively high. 
 
 3. In Germany there are no express companies to compete with the post office. 
 Here we have express companies operating under an elaborate zone system 
 that enables these companies to take the profitable short-haul business away 
 from the Government, while leaving to Uncle Sam the unprofitable long haul. 
 
 To show how serious a matter is this express company competition and also 
 to give the evidence on which I base this argument for the legislation we 
 recommend, I submit four tables showing the rates under the Sulzer bill, the 
 rates proposed by you, Mr. Chairman, in the tables prepared for the use of the 
 committee, the tentative postal express rates submitted by Congressman Lewis 
 in his study of the Lewis bill, and the corresponding express rates. In the 
 tables the rates are referred to as the Sulzer bill rates, proposed Senate rates, 
 express rates, and proposed postal express. The express rates are compiled 
 from the report of the Interstate Commerce Commission and are based on the 
 average express rates for the entire United States. 
 
 Comparison of Phoposed Parcel Post, Express, and Proposed Postal Express 
 
 Rates. 
 
 Table Xo. 1. — Weights of from 1 to 11 pounds for distances of -10, 100, and 200 
 
 miles. 
 
 [Rates arc- given in cents.] 
 
 50. 
 
 100.. 
 
 200. 
 
 [Sulzer bill rates 
 
 Proposed Senate rates 
 
 Express rates 
 
 Proposed postal ex- 
 
 [ press. 
 
 [Sulzer bill rates 
 
 Proposed Senate rates 
 
 Express rates 
 
 Proposed postal ex- 
 
 [ press. 
 
 [Sulzer bill rates 
 
 Proposed Senate rates 
 
 Express rates 
 
 Proposed postal ex- 
 
 [ press. 
 
 Pounds. 
 
 1 
 
 2 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 5 
 
 6 
 
 7 
 
 8 
 
 9 
 
 10 
 
 11 
 
 5 
 
 7 
 
 9 
 
 11 
 
 13 
 
 15 
 
 17 
 
 19 
 
 21 
 
 23 
 
 25 
 
 
 7 
 
 9 
 
 11 
 
 13 
 
 15 
 
 17 
 
 19 
 
 21 
 
 23 
 
 25 
 
 
 
 
 
 27 
 11 
 
 
 
 
 
 32 
 16 
 
 
 7 
 
 8 
 
 9 
 
 10 
 
 12 
 
 13 
 
 14 
 
 15 
 
 17 
 
 8 
 
 16 
 
 24 
 
 32 
 
 40 
 
 48 
 
 56 
 
 64 
 
 72 
 
 80 
 
 88 
 
 10 
 
 14 
 
 18 
 
 22 
 
 26 
 
 30 
 
 34 
 
 38 
 
 42 
 
 46 
 
 5(1 
 
 
 
 
 
 36 
 11 
 
 
 
 
 
 42 
 16 
 
 
 7 
 
 8 
 
 9 
 
 10 
 
 12 
 
 13 
 
 14 
 
 15 
 
 17 
 
 8 
 
 16 
 
 24 
 
 32 
 
 40 
 
 48 
 
 56 
 
 64 
 
 72 
 
 80 
 
 88 
 
 10 
 
 14 
 
 18 
 
 22 
 
 26 
 
 30 
 
 34 
 
 38 
 
 42 
 
 4li 
 
 50 
 
 10 
 
 7 
 
 
 24 
 
 32 
 
 43 
 
 
 
 
 
 51 
 
 
 S 
 
 9 
 
 10 
 
 11 
 
 12 
 
 13 
 
 14 
 
 15 
 
 16 
 
 17 
 
856 
 
 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 In the table the Sulzer bill rates and those of the proposed Senate rates for 
 the first 50 miles are the special local zone rates. The local zone rates of 
 these two proposals are identical and approximate those of the proposed 
 postal express. 
 
 Table No. 2. — Rates on 5 and 11 pounds at 200, 1,000 and 3,000 miles. 
 [Rates are given in cents.] 
 
 Sulzer bill rates 
 
 Proposed Senate rates. . 
 
 Express rates 
 
 Proposed postal express 
 
 200 miles. 
 
 5 
 pounds. 
 
 40 
 
 11 
 pounds. 
 
 1,000 miles. 
 
 5 
 pounds. 
 
 40 
 
 11 
 pounds. 
 
 .50 
 103 
 31 
 
 3,000 miles. 
 
 5 
 pounds. 
 
 11 
 
 pounds. 
 
 50 
 154 
 50 
 
 Table No. 3. — Bates on 
 
 50, and 100 pounds at 60, 100, 200, IfiO, 1,000 and 
 3,000 miles. 
 
 
 00 miles. 
 
 100 miles. 
 
 200 miles. 
 
 
 20 
 pounds. 
 
 50 
 pounds. 
 
 100 
 pounds. 
 
 20 
 pounds. 
 
 50 
 pounds. 
 
 100 
 pounds. 
 
 20 
 pounds. 
 
 50 
 pounds. 
 
 100 
 pounds. 
 
 
 $1.60 
 .92 
 .40 
 .17 
 
 $4.00 
 
 2.30 
 
 .61 
 
 .31 
 
 $8.00 
 
 4.60 
 
 .73 
 
 .63 
 
 $1.60 
 .92 
 .46 
 .20 
 
 $4.00 
 
 2.30 
 
 .75 
 
 .40 
 
 $8.00 
 
 4.60 
 
 .89 
 
 .80 
 
 $1.60 
 .92 
 60 
 .26 
 
 $4.00 
 
 2.30 
 
 .95 
 
 .56 
 
 $8.00 
 
 Proposed Senate rates 
 
 4.60 
 1.30 
 
 Proposed postal express 
 
 1.12 
 
 
 400 miles. 
 
 1,000 miles. 
 
 3,000 miles. 
 
 
 20 
 pounds. 
 
 50 
 pounds. 
 
 100 
 pounds. 
 
 20 
 pounds. 
 
 50 
 pounds. 
 
 100 
 pounds. 
 
 20 
 pounds. 
 
 50 
 pounds. 
 
 100 
 pounds. 
 
 
 $1.60 
 .92 
 .83 
 .36 
 
 $4.00 
 
 2.30 
 
 1.15 
 
 .80 
 
 $8.00 
 4.60 
 2.18 
 1.60 
 
 $1.60 
 
 .92 
 
 1.40 
 
 .56 
 
 $4.00 
 2.30 
 2.35 
 1.28 
 
 $8.00 
 4.60 
 4.65 
 2.56 
 
 $1.60 
 
 .92 
 
 3.00 
 
 1.01 
 
 $4.00 
 2.30 
 7.44 
 2.42 
 
 $8.00 
 
 Proposed Senate rates 
 
 4.60 
 14.87 
 
 Proposed postal express 
 
 4.83 
 
 The limit of weight on the Sulzer and Senate rates being 11 pounds, the num- 
 ber of pieces at 20, 50, and 100 pounds will be 2, 5, and 9, respectively. The 
 express and postal express weights are unlimited. 
 
PAECEL POST. 
 
 857 
 
 [Rates are in cents and fractions of cents.] 
 
 Table No. 4. — Average express rates on 5 to 100 pounds at varying distances 
 reduced to rates per pound (in cents) for comparison with the 8-cent per 
 pound flat rate of the Sulzer bill and the 5-cent approximate rate of the 
 proposed Senate rates. 
 
 Miles. 
 
 Weight in pounds. 
 
 5 
 
 10 
 
 20 
 
 30 
 
 50 
 
 100 
 
 62 
 
 6.4 
 7.2 
 8.2 
 8.6 
 9.4 
 11.2 
 12.4 
 12.6 
 13.6 
 13.6 
 14.0 
 15.6 
 15.6 
 15.8 
 16.0 
 16.2 
 
 4.0 
 
 4.2 
 
 4.9 
 
 5.1 
 
 5.7 
 
 7.1 
 
 7.9 
 
 8.3 
 
 9.2 
 
 9.3 
 
 9.7 
 
 11.8 
 
 12.10 
 
 12.50 
 
 14.00 
 
 15.40 
 
 2.0 
 2.3 
 2.9 
 3.0 
 3.6 
 4.2 
 5.0 
 5.5 
 6.2 
 6.3 
 6.5 
 8.6 
 9.2 
 9.5 
 13.0 
 14.5 
 
 1.7 
 1.9 
 2.3 
 2.5 
 2.8 
 3.5 
 4.1 
 4.5 
 5.0 
 5.2 
 5.4 
 8.0 
 8.4 
 8.8 
 12.9 
 14.3 
 
 1.2 
 1.5 
 1.7 
 1.9 
 2.0 
 2.3 
 2.8 
 3.2 
 3.6 
 3.7 
 4.0 
 6.5 
 7.0 
 7.5 
 11.2 
 14.8 
 
 0.73 
 
 100 
 
 .89 
 
 144 
 
 1.19 
 
 196 
 
 1.30 
 
 255 
 
 1.68 
 
 402 
 
 2.1a 
 
 484 
 
 2.78 
 
 576 
 
 3.12 
 
 677 
 
 3.70> 
 
 787 
 
 3.73 
 
 905 
 
 3.93 
 
 1,297 
 
 6.40 
 
 1,450 
 
 6.90 
 
 1,600 
 
 7.40 
 
 2,500 
 
 11.09 
 
 3,000 
 
 14. 8? 
 
 
 
 Sulzer bill rate, 8 cents per pound flat. Proposed Senate rate for 5 pounds, 5 cents flat; for 10 pounds and 
 over, 4. 6 cents fiat. Proposed postal express average, one-half to one-third of express rates. 
 
 These express rates provide for collect and delivery in all cities of any con- 
 siderable size, and also cover insurance. To be on a parity tee proposed pos- 
 tal rates should cover collect and delivery. 
 
 These tables are not as complete as I would like to have made them, but 
 they are sufficient to show the serious character of express company competi- 
 tion and to enable us to determine approximately what proportion and part 
 of the parcel distribution business would go to the post office at the proposed 
 parcel post rates. 
 
 The Sulzer bill rate for 11 pounds is 88 cents. The express rates for 11 
 pounds, 200 miles, is 51 cents. The local zone parcel-post rate for 11 pounds 
 is 25 cents. That is to say, the express companies can and would, to secure the 
 business, carry a 11-pound package 200 miles, deliver within any local zone for 
 76 cents (51 cents plus 25 cents), or 12 cents less than the Sulzer bill rate. 
 
 The express companies desiring to secure the major part of the parcel-post 
 service within the local zone, in order to make such business a feeder to 
 their general business, could very easily establish rules providing for handling, 
 at special rates, parcels within the weight limit of the parcel post, that con- 
 formed to specified dimensions. Such small packages could be quickly and 
 inexpensively assembled and boxed in 50 or 100-pound units for shipment. 
 Then they could establish a series of combination rates absolutely below the 
 competitive price over all the territory up to a 1,000-mile haul, so far as the 
 Sulzer bill is concerned, and in all the territory up to a 500-mile haul, so far as 
 the proposed Senate rates are concerned. 
 
 For city delivery, where combination rates were not needed to secure the 
 business, the express companies would secure all the business that could be 
 shipped in larger units than 1] pounds, and the extremely low rates on these 
 larger parcels, as compared with the proposed parcel-post rates, would be a 
 constant incentive to ship in these larger units. Then, if the parcel-post com- 
 petition proved serious, the express companies could, and probably would, issue 
 regulfitions similar to those issued for the rural business, and arrange for ship- 
 ping small packages of a certain weight and size in 50 or 100 pounds combina- 
 tion shipment. That is to say, they could and probably would, establish special 
 rates for shipment in their own cases holding 100 pounds or more. 
 
 A study of the figures- shows that with the present express rates the express 
 companies have a capacity of almost unlimited expansion to give a lower rate 
 than any flat rate proposed, so far as the profitable part of the business is con- 
 
 21845— -vol 3—12 18 
 
858 PARCEL POST. 
 
 cerned. That is to say, the express companies would continue to have a prac- 
 tical monopoly of all the profitable part of the business. 
 
 The express rates used in these comparisons are the present average rates of 
 the express business of the entire country. In the sparsely settled districts the 
 express rates are higher than these averages, but in many of the more densely 
 populated parts of the country, where the great bulk of the express business is, 
 the rates will average lower than the general average. Thus the express com- 
 panies have, even in present express rates, a greater advantage than our tables 
 show. 
 
 The contracts of the express companies with the railroads also give the 
 express companies a wide margin for reducing rates should occasion demand 
 such reduction. That the express companies would meet postal competition 
 with such cuts in present rates as are necessary to hold the business, is beyond 
 question. How heavy these reductions may be can be surmised by noting the 
 rates made for carrying the newspapers, and the present rates of from one-half 
 a cent to 2 cents per pound, for 50 and 100-pound packages for distances from 
 25 up to 250 miles. 
 
 The tables show that while the flat rates are very much higher than the 
 express rates for all profitable short-haul territory beyond the first 50 miles 
 (the territory of the special local zone parcel-post rate) that the proposed 
 parcel-post rate in the territory of the long unprofitable haul, is about one-half 
 the express rates for the Sulzer bill and about one-third for the proposed 
 Senate rate. 
 
 That the parcel post would have all this long-haul business to do is practically 
 certain, for the tables show that the express companies make practically no re- 
 duction for large shipments on the very long hauls. The express rate for 100 
 pounds 3,000 miles is $14.87 ; the Sulzer rate, $8 ; the proposed Senate rate $4.60. 
 The conditions of the short haul are reversed, and with such margins in favor 
 of postal shipments every effort would be made, even by the express companies 
 themselves, to bring shipments within the 11-pound limit of the parcel-post 
 rates. If the long-haul business could be operated at these rates by the post 
 office, at a profit, this would be good business. But if the rates are below cost 
 it means a big deficit. 
 
 The following deductions from these tables seem to me to be' conclusive : 
 
 1. To establish merely a rural parcel post or local zone without a profitable 
 general parcel post in connection therewith, is simply to provide feeders for the 
 express companies. 
 
 2. To attempt, by legislative enactment, to enforce a postal monopoly on the 
 carrying of parcels at either of the flat rates proposed, thus suppressing the 
 express competition, would be simply to force upon the public a parcel serv- 
 ice at a very much higher rate than now provided by the express companies. 
 
 3. That, except within the 50-mile zone, the flat rates proposed give the people 
 who desire to do business within a radius of 500 miles or less no advantage over 
 present express service, while it confers upon those doing an exceptionally long- 
 distance business advantages they are not entitled to. To compel the people 
 living within the borders of any one State to pay two or three times what a serv- 
 ice is worth in order to confer special advantages on the few citizens who do 
 business across the continent is not public-welfare legislation. 
 
 4. That the flat rates proposed, considering present postal contract relations 
 with the railroads, would result in a heavy deficit in the postal revenue. 
 
 Enthusiastic advocates of parcel post have idealized the flat rate, but investi- 
 gation shows that in all countries where the parcel post has been considerably 
 extended the zone system in some form has been adopted. And I am convinced 
 that the flat rate, over such a wide territory as the United States, under the con- 
 ditions that exist here, is not workable so as to give an adequate service to the 
 public without loss of revenue to the Government. 
 
 A general parcel post in the country which will be self-sustaining and give the 
 public a satisfactory service must be unquestionably on a competitive basis with 
 the express companies, or the law must provide for the suppression of express 
 company competition, either by enforcing the postal monopoly of " all matter 
 by law made mailable," or by absorbing them. 
 
 For the reasons stated above it does not seem to me that the enforcement of 
 the Government monopoly is at this time expedient. Therefore the other alter- 
 native of buying out and absorbing the express companies and making them a 
 part of the postal service, is, in my judgment, the practical solution of the 
 difficulty. 
 
PAKCEL POST. 859 
 
 The Lewis bill provides for the purchase of the express companies by con- 
 demnation, and the taking over of the express business and operating it as a 
 part of the parcel-post express department of the post office, and we urge the 
 enactment of the legislation provided for in the bill. 
 
 I need not dwell on the advantage of this plan, for Mr. Lewis's own able 
 argument is before you and covers the ground. I will simply say that the ten- 
 tative rates submitted by Mr. Lewis, rates which I believe will yield a large 
 revenue, are so much lower (from one-half to one-third) than the express rates 
 (see table on page 27 of the June, 1911, hearings before the Subcommittee No. 4 
 of the Committee on Post Office and Post Roads, House of Representatives) that 
 it would be worth to the people of the country many times the cost of purchase, 
 even if the purchase price had to be appropriated by Congress. But the 
 evidence seems to me conclusive that the postal-express revenues, under the rates 
 proposed by Mr. Lewis, would be more than sufficient to make the postal ex- 
 press self-sustaining, and in addition, pay interest on any bonds issued to pay 
 for the purchase of the express companies and provide a sinking fund for the 
 payment of the bonds. 
 
 POSTAL FREIGHT EXPRESS. 
 
 There is one other solution of the parcel-post problem which the Govern- 
 ment can put into operation without expense and with a certainty of meeting 
 successfully express competition. This is what is known in Germany as the 
 secondary express, and which I think could be properly called postal freight 
 express. The Post Office Department has already taken the initiative in using 
 the freight service of the railroads for the transportation of second-class mail 
 matter that calls for a rapid service, and we urge Congress to enact legislation 
 providing for a general parcel post, by fast freight, in combination with the 
 50-mile zone system provided for in the proposed Senate rates. In this way 
 a general parcel post can be established, based on the lowest fast-freight 
 rates obtainable, and by connecting therewith the passenger train service 
 within the zones and the Rural Delivery Service we could at once have a low- 
 cost general parcel post serving all the people — a parcel post that would be 
 more than self-sustaining, reduce the cost of living to the consumer, give a 
 reasonably perfect service to the farmer, and wipe out the postal deficit of the 
 rural service. We urge your committee, Mr. Chairman, to prepare and report 
 such a bill and recommend its passage by Congress at this session. 
 
 OBJECTION 2 — THE OPPOSITION OF THE LOCAL MERCHANT. 
 
 The objection that the establishment of a parcel post would be injurious to 
 the rural merchant has seemed to me to have the greatest weight with many 
 Senators and Representatives, but I believe it is without any solid foundation 
 in fact. Instead of injuring the rural merchant, the adoption of a modern 
 parcel post or postal express such as is recommended would be not only to 
 his advantage but is absolutely necessary to protect him from the destructive 
 competition of the mail-order house, which he now feels so keenly and opposes 
 so bitterly. 
 
 The mail-order house is here now, and we have no parcel post. Some of 
 these mail-order houses have grown to enormous proportions without parcel 
 post. They are still developing and growing larger and larger. It is reason- 
 able to suppose — in fact, self-evident — that unless the present methods of dis- 
 tributing merchandise are changed, and changed radically, mail-order houses 
 will become a far greater menace to the rural merchant than they are to-day. 
 In the face of this it would seem to me the wise thing for the rural mer- 
 chant to do, instead of opposing parcel post, would be to make a thorough study 
 of the present methods of distributing merchandise, in order to discover what 
 it is that now gives the mail-order houses the big advantage they now possess 
 With that knowledge the rural merchant would be in the advantageous position 
 of knowing what was necessary to do to put his business on a fair competitive 
 basis with the mail-order houses. 
 
 Pursuing investigations along this line to their logical conclusions, the rural 
 merchant would find that instead of the postal express being of any special 
 advantage to the mail-order houses it is the one thing that would most posi- 
 tively give the advantage to the rural merchant. 
 
 The only advantage which the mail-order houses now enjoy over the local 
 merchant which the live up-to-date merchant needs to fear is that due to the 
 
860 PARCEL POST. 
 
 lack of an efficient postal express, and especially the lack of such service in 
 the rural districts. Only by the close touch with his wholesaler, insuring the 
 prompt delivery of the unit wholesale shipment at the nominal transportation 
 cost of a postal express, coupled with a constant daily touch with his farmer 
 customers through the same means, can he rid himself of the preseat heavy 
 handicap and place himself on a competitive equality with the mail-order 
 houses. 
 
 Some rural merchants think that it is to their advantage to prevent the 
 farmers from securing the advantage of a cheap, efficient postal-express service, 
 but the reverse is true. Compel the farmer as now to attend personally to his 
 own parcel deliveries, often at great trouble and expense, and conditions favor- 
 able to the development of the mail-order business are established. To-day, to 
 buy in the local store, the farmer must go to town, thereby taking not only him- 
 self but his team from productive work. Naturally, instead of buying in small 
 quantities at frequent intervals, buying in quantities that will last for some 
 time becomes the custom. Thus we have in the rural districts a condiion most 
 favorable to the development of mail-order business. 
 
 The profits on the mail-order business are not in the shipments that go either 
 by parcel post or express. These shipments are an insignificant portion of the 
 great bulk of the business. Many of these shipments are made at an actual 
 loss. They are merely feeders for the business and for good will. The profit 
 of the mail-order house is in the enormous business done by freight in shipments 
 of 100 pounds or more. 
 
 A very cursory examination of the catalogues, circulars, etc., of these mail- 
 order houses will show that systematic effort is constantly made to induce the 
 customer to order in quantities of 100 pounds weight or more in order to take 
 advantage of the lowest freight rates. Neighbors are encouraged to club to- 
 gether to make up a 100-pound shipment, and thus secure the advantage of the . 
 cheap freight rate. The man or woman who makes up the club, collects the 
 money, sends in the order, and, when the freight shipment arrives, goes to town, 
 secures the package, opens it, and delivers to the various parties their part of 
 the shipment. All this at no cost or, at most, nominal cost to the mail-order 
 houses. Thus, under present conditions, the mail-order houses have the im- 
 mense advantage of a corps of agents for soliciting and distributing orders and 
 collecting and forwarding payment therefor practically free of all cost. The 
 business being strictly cash in advance, there is practically no loss to allow for, 
 consequently goods can be sold at a close margin of profit. 
 
 What the local storekeeper is now up against is this practically free collect 
 and delivery service, with low freight rates direct to the consumer. The fact 
 that the local merchant does as well as he does in spite of this heavy handicap 
 is proof, in my judgment, that with the tremendous advantage removed which 
 the mail-order houses now have the local merchant would at once get the upper 
 i»and of mail-order competition. 
 
 T he remedy for mail-order-house competition is to establish a system of 
 wackage delivery still more efficient than that devised by the mail-order houses 
 «nd which will serve the local merchant better than it will his mail-order-house 
 rivals. 
 
 A parcel post or a postal express that will enable each farmer to receive his 
 own parcel direct at his own home, at a reasonable price, at the time he wants 
 delivery, and under conditions which make orders by phone deliverable the 
 same day will break up the clubbing together to send orders away to the mail- 
 order houses. 
 
 The mail-order houses will at once lose the advantage of free solicitation, free 
 distribution, and low-cost freight shipments direct to groups of customers. The 
 local merchant will then have no cause to fear mail-order competition. 
 
 Mr. Chairman, the assertion of the local merchant that the parcel post will 
 destroy or injure his business is an admission that he can not sell as cheaply as 
 the mail-order house, even under the fair conditions of a square deal in dis- 
 tributing costs. This, in effect, is a demand that the farmer pay him a premium 
 or bounty in order that he may continue to conduct business by antiquated 
 methods and be protected from the progressive spirit of modern merchandizing 
 and 'twentieth-century methods. Such an argument makes the local merchant 
 the best advertising agent the mail-order houses can have. Certainly there 
 could be no better argument to convince the farmer that he can not do as well 
 with the local merchant as with the mail-order houses. Other things being 
 equal, the farmer would naturally prefer to trade with the local merchant, but 
 he naturally objects to paying the local merchant two prices for an article he 
 
PAECEL POST. 861 
 
 can buy at a single price by sending off to some mail-order house. The local 
 merchant may possibly succeed in blocking parcel-post legislation by such meth- 
 ods, but he will accelerate mail-order competition, alienate the farmer more and 
 more, and lose a steadily increasing portion of rural business. 
 
 No business, no institution, no community, no country can prosper that is 
 unfairly discriminated against in transportation facilities. Nations and cities 
 spend vast sums to remove the slightest handicap to commerce, and the most 
 strenuous efforts are put forward to secure advantage in transportation 
 rates. No fact is more solidly established £han that prosperity of the com- 
 munity, commercial prosperity, and cheap transportation go hand in hand. 
 Our village communities are decaying and our local merchants are finding the 
 struggle hard because they have not had a square deal in this respect. Just 
 as surely as our merchant princes and our seaports need favorable ocean and 
 railway freight rates to maintain their prosperity, so do our local merchants 
 and village communities require favorable transportation rates and especially 
 in the small shipments. For just as it is true that the tonnage rates are the 
 prime consideration of the big shippers, it is true that the parcel rate is the 
 primary factor in rural life. 
 
 It is to-day a matter of common knowledge that the all-important factor 
 which has built up so many of our giant monopolies and enabled them to control 
 the major part of the output in many industries, and to dictate arbitrary sell- 
 ing prices to the merchant, has been secret railroad rates, rebates, and other 
 similar favors. Not only have merchants in almost every line of industry been 
 driven to the wall in this way, but almost all who survive have in some measure 
 been robbed of their independence and made merely the agent to distribute 
 the monopolized products exactly as directed by the brokers or general agents 
 of the controlling monopolies. How many grocers, for example, are there who 
 have anything to say about the price of sugar, or who can expect to secure their 
 rebates if they deviate from the selling prices given by the Sugar Trust agent. 
 
 The practice of giving large shippers and terminal cities special rates has 
 prevailed since the railroads were first established. At first this was believed 
 to be right, but it was wrong, and it operated to give an unfair and increasing 
 advantage to the largest and most favorably situated. You know the result. 
 The most favored grew to giant proportions and became too powerful for even 
 the railroads to cope with. Railroads, merchants, producers, and consumers 
 all were made to pay the full limit of tribute. Happily, our eyes are now 
 opened to the awful consequences of railroad discrimination and the American 
 people are determined to remedy this evil. How? There is only one way, and 
 that is by establishing conditions that will insure absolute equality of transpor- 
 tation rates between the big and the little shipper. This is the square deal, 
 and the square deal will rob no one of a legitimate profit. 
 
 The one great fact that is being driven into the minds of everyone is that 
 between the price at which the farmer is compelled to sell his product and the 
 price the consumer is compelled to pay there is a difference enormously out of 
 proportion to the cost of distributing. Naturally, the retail merchant, as the 
 one who comes most directly into contact with the indiscriminating public, re- 
 ceives the brunt of the complaint, and because he fails to point out the real 
 robber he finds that a large measure of the blame sticks to him. Mercantile 
 organizations can, in my judgment, do the merchant generally no greater service 
 than to disassociate the merchant in the minds of the general public from those 
 other members of the distributing group who, through special privileges and 
 unfair trade advantages, are undoubtedly profiting at the expense of both the 
 farmer and the consumer. 
 
 Mr. Chairman, the establishment of a general parcel post, or postal express, 
 such as we have urged upon your consideration will prove to De of especial 
 advantage to the local merchants and will tend to minimize the disability 
 under which they now labor in competition with the mail-order houses. A 
 low-cost parcel post is a vitally necessary factor in assisting to restore rural 
 merchandizing and rural life generally to its old-time prosperity. 
 
 THE ZONE SYSTEM NEEDED. 
 
 I believe the local merchant has a just grievance against the flat rate, the 
 values of which to the merchant increase the more extended his business. 
 But the universal zone system, or the postal freight express, which makes every 
 merchant's store in the small village the center of the most-favored rates, and 
 
862 PARCEL POST. 
 
 which gives the advantage to the shortest haul, makes him again master of the 
 situation. 
 
 Mr. Chairman, the opposition of rural merchants to the parcel post is un- 
 founded, and I am glad to say that it is far from being general. There are 
 many local merchants favorable to parcel post and their number is steadily 
 increasing. Manufacturers like Mr. F. F. Ingram, the chairman of the executive 
 committee of the Postal Express Federation, who deals almost exclusively 
 with retail merchants, are systematically engaged in educating their trade in 
 the benefits to the local merchant that will result from the establishment of 
 parcel post. Furthermore, a committee of local merchants to assist in carrying 
 on the educational work among local merchants is now being formed. 
 
 The postal express and postal freight express which we urge you to recom- 
 mend to Congress are economically sound. Their urgent need to conserve the 
 public welfare is beyond question. The demand for their enactment, or at 
 of least some general parcel post, is general throughout the country, and the 
 farm organizations are uniting to make it their paramount issue. 
 
 The Chairman. Your association advocates a governmental monop- 
 oly of all parcel business. Is the committee to understand from that 
 that all articles carried as parcels by the Government are to be legally 
 classified and any private enterprise prohibited from carrying the 
 same articles, regardless of the weight, or do you mean that articles 
 carried by the Government up to a certain weight shall be legally 
 monopolized for the Government itself and private enterprise be 
 prohibited from carrying the same kind and class of articles up to 
 that weight, but permitted to carry the same class of articles in 
 packages of greater weight than the legal maximum limit established 
 for the parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. As I have stated in my argument, I do not believe 
 that it is expedient at this time to enforce the governmental monop- 
 oly, for the reasons set forth in my paper, but if the Government did 
 undertake to establish a monopoly and enforce it, I believe it should 
 be done under administrative orders, that the power should be con- 
 ferred on the Postmaster General to determine what packages are 
 mailable and what packages are not, both as to weight and size and 
 character, etc. 
 
 The Chairman. Don't you think that is a legislative function and 
 not an administrative function? Do you not think that that would 
 be a centralization of power in an individual which would make him 
 a dictator of the Government? Do you beileve in that? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. I think the administrative problems are too com- 
 plex, with the multiplicity of weights and sizes, to make it a legis- 
 lative matter. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it not a legislative matter as far as the decla- 
 ration as to what the line of demarcation shall be between govern- 
 mental operation and private enterprise? Will you kindly explain, 
 for the information of the committee, your method by which you 
 would establish, now or hereafter, a governmental monopoly in this 
 packet business? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. No; I have not given any consideration to that 
 part of it, and I would not care to make an argument showing how 
 that Government monopoly could be established. As I have stated 
 in my paper, I believe that the establishment of a governmental 
 monopoly at the present time would be inexpedient. The only way, 
 if it were left to me to devise a plan by which I would undertake to 
 provide a governmental monopoly, would be by the establishment of 
 a system at such rates that the rates themselves would practically 
 establish the Government monopoly. 
 
PAECBLi POST. 863 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, it would be an effective and not a 
 legal monopoly. That the superiority and cheapness of cost of the 
 Government service would effect the monopoly as against any private 
 enterprise — that is you idea? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. That is my idea, and that is the method I would 
 pursue to establish a Government monopoly. 
 
 Senator Bkistow. Before I came in did you submit your ideas as 
 to the number of zones and distances and so forth ? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. No; I did not. If you will notice in the recom- 
 mendations I make in my paper in regard to the local zone, which we 
 indorse — a 50-mile zone — that is the unit of the zone, and we have 
 submitted a recommendation that that should be connected up by a 
 general parcel post, by postal express and postal freight express, 
 and either one or both of these should be the connecting link between 
 the local zones. We believe that this committee could work out a 
 parcel-post service very satisfactory to the Government embodying 
 these two points — the general distribution over the railroads by fast 
 freight and the local distribution within the zone limit by the pas- 
 senger service and the rural routes. But, so far as the final establish- 
 ment of the zone system is concerned, I advocate the absorption of 
 the express companies, and then adopting the express contracts with 
 the railroads and following out the principle that is being developed 
 by the express companies of what you might call a series of zones 
 connecting the local zones that have a rate that scientifically increases 
 in proportion to distance with a declension as to weight. If these 
 rates begin at every post office it practically makes every distributing 
 point the center of an elaborate continuous-zone system. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you would advocate, would you, that the 
 Government compel the railroads to make contracts as favorable as 
 they now make voluntarily with their express companies, which are 
 assumed to be more or less closely allied by ownership with the 
 railroads themselves? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Yes ; I think so. I do not believe it is possible for 
 the Government to be able to operate under the flat rate if it is com- 
 pelled to make contracts for hauling the mails over the roads at very 
 much higher rates than the express companies now enjoy. The flat 
 rate must be based upon the average haul that will give a profit to 
 the postal department, or at least make it self-supporting. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You have not worked out, then, any zone system 
 in detail. I have worked on that point. Senator Bourne and I may 
 not agree on the zone system. I have been trying to work out a 
 system and I think it is entirely feasible to have any number of 
 zone's you want, so you do not multiply them too much, say 50 miles, 
 150 miles, 300 miles, 600 miles, or a thousand miles; half a dozen or 
 more zones. 
 
 Mr. Hampton. I believe that would be a more practicable system 
 than the flat rate, yet I do feel, however, that it is rather arbitrary 
 in a certain way, as regards, for instance, 150 miles. For 2 miles 
 within the 150-mile limit the village or city would have the advan- 
 tage that the 150-mile parties just over the 50-mile limit would not 
 enjoy. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is unavoidable in all business of that kind. 
 It can be minimized. If you increase the number of zones to the 
 largest practicable limit, you reduce that discrimination. 
 
864 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Hampton. You are advocating what we may term the " inter- 
 locking zone system." Every office would be the center of a zone. 
 I can see no reason, however, if you carry out that principle, why 
 instead of having a series of zones, with flat rates within the zones, 
 you should not have an ascending series, scientifically adjusted, of 
 rates, according to distance, right to the limit of distance. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The difficulty with the postmaster is that he has 
 to figure on the distance that the other office is from his office and 
 he has to figure on the different routes which emanate from it. That 
 would not be practicable, because he might route it one way or an- 
 other and there would be a difference in distance and he would be- 
 come confused, while if he has a map with a circle, and that circle 
 includes every post office, all he has to do is to find out in which circle 
 the post office is located. It approximates that as nearly as it is 
 practicable to do it in the operation of the postal system. 
 
 Mr. Hampton. It seems to me that we should have what you may 
 term the continuous zone — that is, following the express companies' 
 system. The adoption of the express companies' method of -regu- 
 lating its rates solves that problem. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That becomes expensive in the detail. It seems 
 to me that one of the advantages of the parcel post is the fact that 
 you put a stamp on the article and it goes, and you do not make a rec- 
 ord that this article was entered here at Washington or some place in 
 Kansas and it was shipped by this company to a certain point and 
 from there to a certain point by another company. You get then a 
 cumbersome system of accounting, which increases very largely your 
 expenses, while the stamp which is put on the package shows where 
 it started from; and when it reaches its destination, then, just like a 
 letter, if it is overweight or underweight, it is charged up just the same 
 as our postage-due stamps are now used. That protects the Govern- 
 ment from fraud or collusion from either end. It seems to me it 
 would be an easy matter to determine what the rate would be and the 
 discriminations would be minor, because the additional charge for 
 the next zone would be small if you had quite a number of zones. I 
 have worked out — it is not completed, but almost completed now — a 
 system of six or seven zones and the rates for each, and I want to sub- 
 mit that to the committee when we get to considering it, and your 
 suggestion led me to think that possibly you had worked out some 
 similar system. 
 
 Mr. Hampton. No ; in a way I have had it hazy in my mind along 
 that line, but it seems to me that the system of continuous gradation 
 of rates is so much superior to the arbitrary establishment of zones, 
 even at intervals that would approximate justice, and it is just as 
 simple in its administrative features. If I am wrong, I want to 
 compare the two systems. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How is the postmaster to ascertain what the 
 distance is ? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. By the table of distances. 
 
 The Chairman. We have 60,000 post offices, and with zones radi- 
 ating out of all of them it would be too complex. 
 
 Mr. Hampton. You would have to approximate it. 
 
 The Chairman. This is so much simpler than the approximation. 
 This is by map instead of by bulk. 
 
PAKCEL POST. 865 
 
 Mr. Hampton. I may be in error, but I do not see that you have 
 ■simplified the problem by establishing interlocking zones. I can see 
 where you take a city like Chicago as the center of your zone system, 
 and radiating from that center 150 miles or so the zone system would 
 be extremely simple ; but where you have an interlocking system and 
 you start from Chicago or Milwaukee 
 
 Senator Bristow. Milwaukee has a zone system, and it is all done 
 by a map. The Post Office Department creates these zones. The 
 topographer of the department when he makes these maps will make 
 a map for each post office. 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Let me understand, when you say your system of 
 zones, it practically takes the first-class post offices as centers of zones % 
 
 Senator Bristow. Every post office, fourth-class post offices in- 
 cluded. 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Fourth-class post offices included. Then if you take 
 a fourth-class post office you have got to establish a series of distance 
 tables from that post office. 
 
 Senator Bristow. From every post office. 
 
 Mr. Hampton. From every post office throughout the country. 
 Then where is that different from establishing a series of tabulated 
 miles throughout the United States? 
 
 The Chairman. Your classification facilities are changing all the 
 time and you could not do that. It would cost millions every year to 
 have 60,000 tariff sheets for each and every post office, and each one 
 different. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You take the city of Washington. There is a 
 certain fee that a hackman is permitted to charge for a certain dis- 
 tance, and a map of the city shows what that charge is. 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Yes; but you understand the city of Washington 
 is not involved in an interlocking system of zones ; it is a center. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If you will just pardon me a minute; suppose 
 that in the making of these maps of the United States there will be a 
 scale, and the maps will all be the same in size; and there will be a 
 compass set for 50 miles according to the scale of that map, and they 
 will put one point of the compass on a post office — any post office — 
 and they will draw a 50-mile radius, or they will take 150 miles radius, 
 or whatever radius we may have until they get, we will say, seven, 
 just to use a number, which covers the United States; those are cir- 
 cles ; now that is made for this postmaster. 
 
 First, there are G0,000 maps printed, and each one of these maps is 
 made for each postmaster. It is a very big job, but a man can make 
 a large number of these in a day by the proper process. That post- 
 master has that map and it shows him the post offices within every 
 zone, and every postmaster has one of those maps, and the map is for 
 his office. So it is simple. All he has to do is to see where this post 
 office is located, in what zone it is located. There may be 10,000 post 
 offices in these outer zones. There is no complication about it, because 
 he is not confused with others. He is simply looking after his own 
 post office. Every post office has the map which relates to that post 
 office. If he were 10 miles out of Chicago, his map would cover his 
 own zone and not the Chicago zone. He would not have anything to 
 do with the Chicago zone; he would know that Chicago was within 
 his 50-mile zone. 
 
866 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Hampton. It is simply modified to meet the administrative 
 difficulties, and therefore if it is approximately correct we will accept 
 that as a satisfactory solution of the problem. 
 
 Senator Beistow. That has been what I have had in mind. I will 
 admit that I think the distance system is the only equitable and just 
 basis of transportation, because there a man pays for what he gets, 
 no more and no less. The other plan is not practicable of demonstra- 
 tion in my judgment. I do not think it is in railroads, because a man 
 who is not an expert could not tell what the rate is on the road except 
 from certain points that are well defined. Take my own town in 
 Kansas, for instance; the railroads can not tell me what the rate 
 would be from there to some point out in Montana. The agent has to 
 telegraph and get the information. It is done on an arbitrary rate, 
 so that there is not any system of rate making that is equitable or 
 just, but this, it seems to me, would approximate what in theory 
 would be the most just rate more nearly than any other scheme that 
 has been devised that would be practicable of operation. That is the 
 way it strikes me, and I would increase the zones as far as it is prac- 
 ticable and not beyond the practicable point. 
 
 The Chairman. I am in full accord with you on that. It is only 
 a question of ascertaining what the practicable point is. 
 
 Mr. Hampton. In determining your practicable point you have got 
 to have certain factors. In the first place you must know what are 
 the contract rates you can make with the railroads. That is a basic 
 factor. 
 
 The Chairman. That will come in the growth of the business. 
 You have got to initiate your machinery, and then it is a question 
 of growth and development. Do you not concur in that? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. I do. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Senator Bourne and I are not lawyers, but we 
 have legal advisers on this subcommittee. Very wisely the Chairman 
 has provided us with such advisers, and I think we could incorporate 
 in this law a provision that would require the railroads to make the 
 same rates and to handle this business for the same compensation per 
 mile that they do for any other concern of any kind. 
 
 Mr. Hampton. It certainly does seem to us extraordinary that the 
 Government is powerless to place its contract relations with the rail- 
 roads on a competitive equality with the express companies. Of 
 course my contention here is that regardless of whether it involved 
 the Government in a deficit or not, the obligation is right up to Con- 
 gress to establish a modern parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. But you would not be in favor, would you, Mr. 
 Hampton, of legislation that would result, in a period of years or 
 decades, in a permanent annual deficit in the postal service? You 
 would expect this service, and as I understand it your organization 
 would expect this service, to be self-supporting or self-sustaining 
 after it has fairly had an opportunity of becoming generally adopted. 
 Am I right in that point ? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Absolutely right. The question as to whether it 
 can be made self-sustaining or not is simply due entirely to what 
 contract relations you can make with the railroads and as to what 
 you can do in the way of devising a system that is fairly competitive 
 with the express companies. If you made those conditions — if you 
 are able to make satisfactory contract rates with the railroads and 
 
PARCEL POST. 867 
 
 can establish the service by this zone system, which has been outlined 
 here by Senator Bristow, so that your postal charges are competitive 
 with the express companies' rates, then you have solved the problem, 
 and you are entitled to the credit of the Nation. We will all get 
 behind it and push. 
 
 The Chairman. You stated a little while ago that there were a 
 number of country merchants, according to your own personal 
 knowledge, who were not opposed to increasing the present activity 
 of the parcel post as included in the fourth-class mail operation of the 
 Postal Department. You think the opposition is decreasing, do you ? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Among the rural merchants ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; that they are becoming better educated with 
 reference.to what the practical effects would be of the inauguration of 
 any such system as you have outlined in your article submitted to 
 the committee? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Yes; Mr. Ingram, who is the chairman of the 
 executive committee of the Postal Express Federation is a manu- 
 facturer of perfumery at Detroit. His business is almost entirely 
 with retail merchants, principally druggists, covering the entire 
 United States, and he makes a systematic educational propaganda 
 among his customers to educate them along the lines of a parcel post. 
 He incloses in every package he sends out a little printed slip. I 
 intended to have one here with me to show it. It states that the 
 shipment of this package is excessively high because of such and such 
 conditions, and how it could be adjusted by the establishment of a 
 parcel post. I can secure one of those for you. 
 
 The Chairman. I wish you would, and mail one to the committee. 
 These various organizations with which you are officially connected 
 represent in the aggregate what membership, in your opinion ? * 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Well, collectively? 
 
 The Chairman. Collectively. 
 
 Mr. Hampton. I have no positive means of ascertaining, but I 
 rather think that it runs close on to a million and a half. The par- 
 ticular Grange organizations have about 200,000. 
 
 The Chairman. How about the Farmers' Union? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. The Farmers' Union claim one million and a half 
 membership. 
 
 The Chairman. That represents the agricultural list of the South ? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. And the West. There is an organization in Ore- 
 
 §on, in Washington, and organizations in a number of the Western 
 tates. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Quite an effective organization in Kansas? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. They cooperate with the National Grange, do 
 they not ? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. No; they cooperate through this committee of the 
 Grange organizations, but the National Grange, while I do not repre- 
 sent them here, has indorsed the recommendations that we are making. 
 So far as I know, I do not know of a farm organization, whether 
 affiliated with us or not, that is not in favor of a parcel post. I do 
 not know of a single agricultural paper that is not editorially indors- 
 ing the establishment of a rural parcel post. 
 
 *Not yet received. 
 
868 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. So far as your experience from the interest you 
 have taken in the subject goes, have you seen any evidence which 
 would lead you to believe that the mail-order houses, or the big de- 
 partmental stores, or the railroads are behind the movement for the 
 establishment of a parcel post of much larger activity than what we 
 now have under the fourth-class mail matter provision ? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. No; I do not. So far as the railroads are concerned 
 I haven't the slightest evidence that they are at all favorable to a 
 parcel post. So far as the mail-order houses are concerned I have 
 no knowledge that they show any activity or any active interest in 
 it at all. They frankly admit — I haven't this officially — but I under- 
 stand they frankly admit it could be of no advantage to them. They 
 certainly do not contribute to the expenses of the Postal Express 
 Federation. A few, a very few of what you may call the depart- 
 mental stores, show a friendliness and are contributing members, 
 but they are so few in proportion to the number — they are not among 
 the largest — that they could hardly be considered. We know, of 
 course, that some of them, like Wanamaker, are urgent advocates 
 of the parcel post, but I have yet to discover whether that is based 
 purely on Mr. Wanamaker's business or upon his personal views as 
 a public-spirited citizen. 
 
 The Chairman. He advocated one? He advocated a parcel post 
 when he was Postmaster General, did he not ? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Yes; I understand he is a constant advocate of a 
 parcel post. Some of the mail-order houses show a desire to see a 
 parcel post established, but they are few and far between and not 
 those generally characterized as the mail-order houses, such as the 
 large mail-order houses of Chicago. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I think a system such as this zone system we 
 have been discussing would give an opportunity to some fellow 
 who has the ability to start a business in a country town somewhere, 
 and an opportunity to reach his constituents there and sell his goods, 
 for he would have an equal show with the fellow in the city and 
 have a tendency to scatter the population rather than to congest it 
 in the cities. 
 
 Mr. Hampton. I agree with you fully. I have been trying to study 
 out what has been the cause of concentration in our large cities and 
 the inability of manufacturers to establish their plants successfully 
 away from the centers. I have come to the conclusion that the only 
 advantage they have — speaking generally, specific instances elimi- 
 nated — is due to favorable transportation. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is the only advantage they have had. 
 When it comes to the cost of establishing a plant, the real-estate 
 charges, the rental charges, and all those things are very heavy in 
 the cities as compared with the small places, but the cost of labor is 
 higher in the large cities. 
 
 The Chairman. You surely don't mean the only advantage; don't 
 you think the manufacturer in the city or in the large community 
 has an advantage in his ability to get a larger supply of labor and 
 better selections? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. That is true in some instances. 
 
 The Chairman. In all instances where the manufacturer is estab- 
 lished on a large scale and skilled labor is required. Otherwise you 
 have to take into consideration in your country community, if you 
 
PARCEL POST. 869 
 
 establish your factory, even if you have your same transportation 
 facilities, the labor supply on which you draw? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. That is true of certain industries; it is true of 
 those industries that require constant expansion and contraction of 
 the labor service where manufacturers of certain classes of goods may 
 only employ to-day 50 hands and next month 200 hands. In that 
 case the city is the favorable location; but there are a great many 
 industries, for instance, like the agricultural-implement industries, 
 in which the employment of labor is, comparatively speaking, a fixed 
 quantity, and under like conditions those factories can operate more 
 successfully if they can have favorable transportation privileges in 
 smaller cities than they can in the large ones. 
 
 The Chairman. I grant you this : That transportation is the main 
 factor, the principal factor, but by no means the only factor in the 
 success of manufacture. 
 
 Senator Beistow. There is a salve or medical preparation called 
 Mentholatum. This Mentholatum is made by a chemist who lives 
 in Wichita, Kans. The man started his business there, and it devel- 
 oped and became successful ; but he has moved to New York, has an 
 establishment at Buffalo, and he ships from Buffalo to Kansas City 
 rather than from Wichita to Kansas City because he gets a better 
 rate. Now, that would have been in Wichita and never would have 
 gone to Buffalo if it had not been for the discrimination in rates 
 that forced the establishment out of Wichita, and it is the evil influ- 
 ence of discrimination in rates to-day in favor of a few men who 
 control the commercial highways of the country that ought to be 
 remedied. The time is coming when people will be amazed to think 
 that an intelligent population ever submitted to such a thing as this 
 country has submitted to within the last 25 years. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I want to bring Mr. Hampton's mind back to the 
 question that the chairman asked him just after he finished reading 
 his paper. The question, as I understood it, was that whether, in 
 the event a legal monopoly should be established by the Government, 
 he would favor permitting competition by private concerns with the 
 Government in the articles specified or included in the monopoly, or 
 whether he would favor the monopoly only up to a certain weight 
 limit, being the weight limit established by law for the carriage of 
 parcels by the Government. After the question was asked a discussion 
 arose between Mr. Hampton and the chairman as to whether that 
 would be an executive or a legislative function, and so far as I re- 
 member the question itself has not been answered. Leaving out of 
 consideration, now, whether it would be proper for the legislative 
 committee or the executive department of the Government to handle 
 the matter, what is your opinion as to the question itself, separated 
 from the department of the Government which would handle it? 
 ( Mr. Hampton. It seems to me it is quite a difficult question to 
 answer. If you will establish a zone system, or if you will establish 
 a Government parcel rate, that is, below the competitive point for a 
 private enterprise, you automatically establish the governmental 
 monopoly, and you do not need to put a weight limit upon it to en- 
 force that monopoly, for automatically it enforces itself. If you are 
 going to establish a parcel post regardless of the express competition, 
 and at a rate that enables that express competition to continue, it 
 seems to me to make the Post Office self-sustaining you must enforce 
 
870 PARCEL POST. 
 
 the Government monopoly of the mailable matter, and I do think, 
 under these circumstances, you would have to fix a weight limit. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Then, your answer would be the weight limit and 
 not the article, the monopoly of the article up to a certain weight, 
 and the competition as to that article above that weight? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. I think so, yes ; but I do not see how you can enforce 
 the Government monopoly if, as I state in my paper, it is not now ex- 
 pedient to enforce the Government monopoly with any of the pro- 
 posed flat rates, and I have not undertaken to work out any rates 
 different from those submitted. I do not believe it is possible to 
 work out Government monopoly on any of the proposed flat rates 
 without making a higher rate than the public now enjoys from the 
 express companies. 
 
 Senator Beistow. And that would not be practical? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. That is my judgment; it would not be practical. 
 
 Senator Bryan. That the Government can't get a rate as cheap as 
 given by the railroad companies to the express company, for instance, 
 that it would be in a position to compete with the express companies? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Provided they adopted a zone system, yes; and I 
 think under those circumstances they would be able to establish a 
 rate far below the competitive rate of a private corporation, which 
 had to operate for a profit. The Government does not need to operate 
 for a profit ; it only needs to operate to be self-sustaining. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You think, then, with an equal opportunity with 
 the express companies the Government could operate fourth-class 
 mail matter to a limit higher than that now existing but without a 
 legal monopoly? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. I think if they can establish a series of zone rates 
 that they could; yes. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Have you taken into consideration this condition: 
 That rates established by the Government must be put into effect for 
 at least a certain amount of time, and can not always be changed 
 from day to day or month to month, whereas the rate established by 
 a competing private concern can be changed as the officers or the 
 board of directors see fit. In giving your statement that you believe 
 that the Government could successfully compete, have you taken into 
 consideration those facts? It is necessary for the Government to 
 establish a rate that would stand until the next Congress or some 
 future time, whereas private concerns can change their rate from 
 week to week in order to get the business by competition and giving 
 a lower rate. I understand your position to be, in order to eventually 
 make this successful the Government would have to enforce a monop- 
 oly of the carriage of the business up to the weight limit prescribed? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. I believe if you undertake to establish a flat rate 
 with an 11-pound limit, or any rate that will be self-sustaining, that 
 it is at a rate that could only be made operative by enforcing the 
 Government monopoly. I do believe, however, either by the plan 
 that is being proposed or absorbing the express companies, that you 
 can establish a rate below a possible competitive rate of a private 
 corporation. 
 
 The Chairman. On what theory ? Do you think that the Govern- 
 ment can do business cheaper than the private enterprises ? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. No; not other things being equal; but under cer- 
 tain circumstances; yes. For instance, to-day we have a number of 
 
PAKCEL, POST. 871 
 
 express companies. They all operate in the larger cities and are, 
 in a measure, competitors, at least to the extent that they duplicate 
 their plants. We have an enormous delivery system in the rural 
 districts that is now waiting to be used that is costing the Govern- 
 ment a heavy expense to maintain in a state of efficiency. By under- 
 taking to make a general consolidation of all those express companies 
 and articulating urban service with the rural service you have estab- 
 lished a condition that involves such an enormous increase in the 
 volume of business that will enable the Government to fix a rate so 
 low it would be impossible for any private institution to duplicate it 
 unless they duplicated it on the extensive scale that the United States 
 Government does. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose you correlated the two, you reduced the 
 waste now demonstrated in your rural-delivery system and forced the 
 express companies to reduce their rates. Would you get the same 
 result from a general welfare standpoint? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. I do not know that I quite catch your point. 
 
 The Chairman. Assuming that the Interstate Commerce Commis- 
 sion had the power and forced the express companies under that 
 power to reduce their rates, and then the Government utilized by a 
 lower rate for its rural delivery routes, the apparent waste, wouldn't 
 you correlate the two and wouldn't you get the same result for the 
 consumer and the producer as if the Government itself absorbed the 
 express companies? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. It is possible. Whether it is probable or not I 
 would not be prepared to say off hand. 
 
 The Chairman. I assume that it would be possible if the Inter- 
 state Commerce Commission has the power to compel the express 
 companies to lower their rates. 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Mr. Chairman, I haven't had any legal advice 
 upon it, but personally it seems to me that it is possible if the Gov- 
 ernment should establish a parcel-post system at a rate below the 
 competitive rate of the express companies covering the entire express 
 business, we will say, to make my point clear, that it would be de- 
 structive of the express companies. 
 
 The Chairman. Then I assume from that statement that the Gov- 
 ernment can operate cheaper than the private enterprises ? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not believe it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It can in this particular instance. On the gen- 
 eral proposition I think you are right, but on this proposition I 
 think there are other conditions that enter into it. 
 
 The Chairman. Simply because of your rural system which the 
 express company does not have and your Government does have. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Then there are other classes of mail matter, and 
 they have the system to maintain. 
 
 Senator Bristow. There are five systems of delivery in this city 
 now, one 1 ! mail and four express. Now, eliminate all of your express 
 companies and let that be handled by one agency that has that estab- 
 lishment, and pays the rent on the buildings just the same, you elimi- 
 nate an enormous expense of duplication. 
 
 The Chairman. Senator, presumably the four express companies 
 that you state are doing business in this city have sufficient business 
 
872 PABCEL. POST. 
 
 to carry ; I grant you that in the centralization of the four in one- 
 that the overhead charges would be reduced. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The same express wagons from two different 
 express companies come out on my street every day. 
 
 The Chairman. And in the routing then there would be a saving. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes; while otherwise the postal carrier would 
 bring it all. And .these three drivers would be eliminated. Like the 
 farmer yesterday who expressed a very interesting statement to me 
 about the milk. Between 6 and 7 o'clock in the morning there are- 
 four or five milk wagons come jamming up my street waking up 
 everybody in the community, where one could do all that business 
 just as well. 
 
 The Chairman. Provided the aggregate of the three or four 
 wagons that come up your street could all go into one wagon. 
 
 Senator Bristow. There would not be an absolute elimination of 
 the three, but a great economy, because one wagon could do a great 
 deal more business than it does and save the trip up there to these 
 other fellows. It may not be able to cover all of the territory before 
 covered, but if he had all of that business two of them would cover 
 it with ease. 
 
 The Chairman. The one point I want to make is that I do not 
 believe the Government ever — because of the restrictions incident 
 to laws — can get the same efficiency that private enterprises get. And 
 I do not believe in the fundamental principle of the Government 
 encroaching on private business except where it is clearly demon- 
 strated that it is absolutely necessary for the increased general wel- 
 fare. Do you concur on those fundamentals? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Yes; I do. While I concur it seems to me almost 
 self evident that public welfare would be served by the Government 
 assuming the handling of parcels which is now done by the express 
 companies. To refer back to the point I started to make before that 
 if the Post Office Department in operating a very highly efficient 
 parcel-post system so far encroached upon the business of the private 
 enterprises by the adoption of rates which made it practically im- 
 possible for the express companies to compete, I am inclined to think 
 that the express companies would claim they had a damage case 
 against the Government and would be able to go into the courts and 
 get an adjudication of compensation, probably, to an amount that 
 would be almost as large as would be necessary to buy them out by 
 condemnation ; that, of course, is a legal point. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Suppose that would happen. You would then 
 have a proposition established that you could not have a monopoly, 
 and if the Government bought by condemnation the present express 
 companies you come back to the proposition that hereafter any 
 private concern can come in and engage in business and then compel 
 the Government over again to buy them out. There would never 
 be any end to that. 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Only in this way: I do not believe it is possible 
 for the Government or for any private institution for that matter 
 to operate on a flat rate over a large expanse of territory and avoid 
 such competition without enforcing its monopoly. The flat rate in- 
 volves the necessity of the establishing of an average rate to be based 
 upon an average haul of a good many hundred miles. The Govern- 
 ment would not be able to successfully compete in its short-haul 
 
PARCEL POST. 873 
 
 business with a business that was organized purely for handling the 
 short-haul traffic, and the only way that either the Government or 
 any private company doing business over the entire country could 
 successfully compete, without a monopoly that would shut out com- 
 petition of that kind, is through the establishment of a zone system. 
 If they establish a zone system I do not see how a private corpora- 
 tion that is simply operating in a small way in a local zone could 
 possibly be able to make a competing rate with another corporation 
 that was operating in a thousand similar zones and through a system 
 that connected all of these zones together. They would have such a 
 tremendous advantage that they ought to be able to make a rate that 
 would be absolutely below the competing point for any small corpora- 
 tion to be able to make a profit. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, as I take it, your deduction is this : Given 
 equal opportunity to the Government and to private enterprise, the 
 Government, because of its extensive system, would be able to handle 
 this particular business cheaper than a private enterprise could? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Yes. But there is one other big factor that gives 
 the Government a big advantage and that is the private institutions 
 would have to establish equipment from A to Z, whereas the Govern- 
 ment does not have to do that, for it has the equipment already and 
 it is only in certain spots it would have to perfect its equipment to be 
 able to operate. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Don't you think that under the circumstances 
 you have described, if a private enterprise did come in and establish 
 a business and successfully compete with the Government, it would 
 be evident that the Government was not efficiently handling its busi- 
 ness? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. I think so. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And don't you think it is for the general welfare 
 of the public that the Government should utilize its machinery to its 
 fullest extent? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. I think that the public welfare would be best served 
 by doing that. 
 
 Senator Bryan. That leads me to ask this : Is it the idea of your 
 federation that the size of the packages should be increased to a very 
 large limit or only, for instance, say to 11 pounds ? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. I think you would find out there was quite a differ- 
 ence of opinion on that point. Personally, my opinion is there 
 should be no limit so far as weight is concerned, but I think the limit 
 would automatically operate if the scale of prices was on an ascend- 
 ing scale to make it practical, except in extremely urgent cases the 
 carrying of large weights. I do not see where the difficulty would be 
 with the Government undertaking to handle a ton rate, providing 
 the rate for that ton rate absolutely enabled the Government to 
 handle that at a profit. That rate, I believe, should be put at such 
 an abnormal price, you might say, as compared with the freight 
 prices, as to be used only in urgent cases where time and delivery 
 overweigh every other consideration; but unless we have a private 
 institution that is prepared to perform that service it does not seem 
 to me the Government is justified in establishing a monopoly that 
 reaches this entire country without the possibility of the people being 
 21845— vol 3—12 19 
 
874 PARCEL POST. 
 
 able to secure that service whenever the urgency of the demand 
 requires it. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You do not think that we have equipment now, of 
 which you spoke, to handle shipments of such a large weight as a 
 ton, do you ? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. No; and yes. There is nothing at all to prevent 
 the Government, if its price is right, removing 20 tons from this 
 building to the railway by temporarily contracting with some private 
 institution to make that delivery. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Don't you think that is getting a long way from 
 the idea of operating a post office? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Yes ; I would not have raised the question if it had 
 not been put up to me. I simply say that I believe the limit would 
 automatically take care of itself, providing the rate was so adjusted 
 as to be an ascending rate as the size of the packages increased. 
 
 The Chairman. As I understand, these are simply your own indi- 
 vidual views and in no manner represent the views of the associations, 
 so far as you know, that you appear before the committee represent- 
 ing to-day, namely, that the Government should carry up to 1 ton 
 weight or any weight parcels ? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. No; I do not think that the majority of the com- 
 mittee would stand for that, and my remark was not in support of 
 the recommendation that I am here to advocate ; it simply was in line 
 of suggestion. The point with me is that the question is one of prin- 
 ciple, as I understand it, more than weight limit. Personally, the 
 point with me is, we will accept a weight limit, but I think the most 
 practical plan for the Government to establish a weight limit is by 
 automatically fixing rates that make shipping heavy weights pro- 
 hibitive. 
 
 The Chairman. Service and price should be the considerations? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. Yes. In view of the fact as to what the rest of the 
 world is doing in regard to a parcel-post service, I can not see that we 
 are handling the matter scientifically if we arbitrarily fix a weight 
 limit of 11 pounds. It may be a good starter, but I would not want 
 to go on record that I think 11 pounds was a practical limit for a 
 parcel post any more than I would want to go on record to say that 
 I considered the carrying of a ton practical. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you think the best way to get at this is to, say, 
 establish this zone system as nearly as we can work it out at fixed 
 rates that we think are reasonable and let developments determine 
 what extensions or modifications ought to be made and let us learn by 
 experience instead of determining by theory and argument? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. I unqualifiedly indorse that proposition. The way 
 to begin is to begin in a practical way. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And let time demonstrate what we can do and 
 what is the best way to do it ? 
 
 Mr. Hampton. The people are ready for a general parcel post. 
 They want it ; they expect it, and I appreciate the difficulties in meet- 
 ing the various complex conditions that we have to contend with — the 
 competition of the express companies, the necessity of readjustment 
 of railroad rates — but the people as a whole see that the world as a 
 whole is securing benefits from the broadening and extension of the 
 parcel-post service, and we are lagging behind" the rest of the world, 
 and there is an intense irritation on the part of the public and what 
 
PARCEL POST. 875 
 
 seems unnecessary delay and a difficulty to explain to the people why 
 the United States can not have a parcel-post service equally as efficient 
 as that enjoyed by the other countries of the world, and the evidence 
 is conclusive, so far as I can see, that the public welfare demands its 
 early establishment on as broad lines as this committee can see con- 
 sistently to recommend to Congress. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee is greatly obliged to you for coming 
 before it and submitting your views. 
 
 Mr. Hampton. I would like to add this : I will be prepared, as the 
 secretary of these organizations, to file a written answer to any ques- 
 tions the committee sees fit to ask me. 
 
 The Chairman. Thank you. If there are any further questions, 
 we will call on you. 
 
 (Thereupon, at 1.30 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned to meet 
 at the call of the chairman.) 
 
 o 
 
PARCEL POST 
 
 HEARINGS 
 
 BEFORE THE 
 
 SUBCOMMITTEE ON PARCEL POST 
 
 OF THE 
 
 SENATE COMMITTEE ON POST OFFICES 
 AND POST ROADS 
 
 UNDER 
 
 S. RES. 56 
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO AND REPORT TO THE SENATE AT THE EARLIEST 
 
 DATE PRACTICABLE WHAT CHANGES ARE NECESSARY OR 
 
 DESIRABLE IN THE POSTAL SYSTEM OF THE UNITED 
 
 STATES OR IN LAWS RELATING TO THE POSTAL 
 
 SERVICE, AND PARTICULARLY WITH REFER 
 
 ENCE TO THE ESTABLISHMENT OF 
 
 A PARCELS POST 
 
 JANUARY 3, 4, 5, 6, AND 16, 1»12 
 
 VOL. IV 
 
 J 
 
 WASHINGTON 
 
 GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
 
 1912 
 
COMMITTEE ON POST OFFICES AND POST BOADS, UNITED STATES 
 
 SENATE. 
 
 Sixty-second Congress, Second Session. 
 
 JONATHAN BOURNE, Jn., of Oregon, Chairman. 
 BOIES PENROSE, of Pennsylvania. WILLIAM LORIMER, of Illinois. 
 
 WINTHROP MURRAY CRANE, of Massa- JOHN H. BANKHEAD, of Alabama, 
 chusetts. ROBERT L. TAYLOR, of Tennessee. 
 
 SIMON GUGGENHEIM, of Colorado. ELLISON D. SMITH, of South Carolina. 
 
 FRANK O. BRIGGS, of New Jersey. CLAUDE A. SWANSON, of Virginia. 
 
 HARRY A. RICHARDSON, of Delaware. NATHAN P. BRYAN, of Florida. 
 
 WILLIAM O. BRADLEY, of Kentucky. JAMES E. MARTINE, of New Jersey. 
 
 JOSEPH L. BRISTOW, of Kansas. 
 
 A. W. Pbescott, Clerk. 
 II 
 
 I 
 
TABLE OF CONTENTS. 
 
 (Vol. 4, pages 877 to 1159.) 
 1912. l'ages. 
 
 Jan. 3. Testimony of Mr. Wm. C. Thome, general manager Montgomery 
 
 Ward & Co., Chicago, 111 877-908 
 
 4. Testimony of Mr. J. N. Hale, executive member, Connecticut 
 
 State Grange, South Glastonbury, Conn 909-922,929,930 
 
 Testimony of Mr. Frederick C. Beach, president Postal Progress 
 
 League and editor Scientific American, New York, N. Y 923-929 
 
 Testimony of Mr. B. A. Peck, Bristol, Conn., representative 
 Connecticut State Grange 931-937 
 
 Testimony of Mr. Walter Scott, Baltimore, Md., representing the 
 American Library Association and the New England Educa- 
 tional Association 938-945 
 
 Testimony of Mr. W. A. Henry, Wallingford, Conn., Rural Route 
 
 No. 2, Emeritus professor University of Wisconsin 946-960, 
 
 969, 970, 1079-1083 
 
 Testimony of Prof. T. C. Atkeson, Morgantown, W. Va., secretary 
 legislative committee, National Grange • 961-974 
 
 Testimony of Mr. M. P. Hull, Dimondville, Mich., master State 
 Grange of Michigan 975-97? 
 
 5. Testimony of Mr. E. W. Bloomingdale, representing the Retail 
 
 Dry Goods Association of New York 979-1001 
 
 Testimony of Mr. Reese V. Hicks, president American Poultry 
 Association, Topeka, Kans 1002-1013 
 
 Testimony of Mr. Charles D. Cleveland, chairman express com- 
 mittee, American Poultry Association, West Orange, N. J 1014-1021 
 
 Testimony of Mr. C. W. Zimmer, chairman parcel-post committee, 
 American Poultry Association, New York, N. Y 1022-1028 
 
 Testimony of Mr. Richard L. Gay, 6 Beacon St., Boston, Mass., 
 assistant secretary-treasurer, Postal Progress League 1029-1038 
 
 Testimony of Mr. I. S. Chamberlain, secretary-treasurer Knights 
 
 of Labor, Washington, D. C 1039-1041 
 
 5-6. Testimony of Mr. Nathan B. Williams, Washington, D. C, rep- 
 resenting the Associated Retailers of St. Louis, Mo v 1042-1066 
 
 6. Testimony of Mr. C. W. Skinner, superintendent of Industrial 
 
 " Home School, 2525 Wisconsin Avenue, Washington, D. C 1067-1069 
 
 Testimony of Miss Leonora O'Reillv, representing the Women's 
 
 Trade- Union League, New York, N . Y 1070-1072 
 
 Testimony of Mr. George M. Whitaker, president Farmers' 
 National Congress and secretary National Dairy Union, 1404 
 
 Harvard Street, Washington, D. C 1073-1078 
 
 16. Testimony of Mr. Charles S. Hernly, Newcastle, Ind 1084-1104 
 
 27. Testimony of Mr. George E. Caskie, attorney at law, Lynch- 
 burg, Va 1105-1125 
 
 Testimony of Mr. Charles G. Craddock, of Craddock, Terry & Co., 
 
 Lynchburg, Va 1126-1147 
 
 Testimony of Mr. D. B. Ryland, merchant and farmer, Lynch- 
 burg, Va 1148 
 
 Feb. 2. Testimony of Mr. T. J. Brooks, national legislative committee- 
 man, Farmers' Educational and Cooperative Union of America. 1149-1159 
 
 m 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 
 WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 3, 1912. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), and Senator 
 Nathan P. Bryan. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. WILLIAM C. THORNE, GENERAL MANAGER, 
 MONTGOMERY WARD & CO., CHICAGO, ILL. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Thome, it will be necessary that you be sworn. 
 
 Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the Chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age, residence, and 
 present occupation? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Age, 48; residence, Chicago; vice president and 
 general manager of Montgomery Ward & Co., Chicago. 
 
 The Chairman. How long, Mr. Thorne, have you occupied the 
 position of vice president and general manager of Montgomery 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Twenty-one years, out of 28 years of service. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state, for the information of the 
 committee, the particular duties that your position involves upon 
 you as vice president and general manager? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. My duties are executive and administrative entirely. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have Montgomery Ward & Co. been 
 engaged in business? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Forty years. 
 
 The Chairman. Are they a firm or a corporation ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. They were a firm, but are now and have been for 
 22 years a corporation. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the capital ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Do you wish me to go into that, Senator? 
 
 The Chairman. I would like the information simply to show the 
 scope of the business. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. The capital stock is $500,000. 
 
 The Chairman. Par value of the stock is what ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. The par value is $100 a share. 
 
 The Chairman. Is the stock closely held or generally distributed ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. All held in one family. 
 
 The Chairman. So, in effect, it is a private enterprise corporation, 
 a close corporation ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. That is correct. 
 
 The Chairman. The stock is not listed on any board ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. No, sir; it is not. 
 
 877 
 
878 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Then there is no market value that has been set 
 upon the stock? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. There is no known market value. 
 
 Senator Ertan. Would you object to stating the book value? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. About $2,500 per share. 
 
 The Chairman. Your surplus is what? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. In the neighborhood of $9,0,00,000. 
 
 The Chairman. Xour principal place of business is where ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Chicago. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any branches? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. One in Kansas City and one in Fort Worth, Tex. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any agents, outside of active agents of 
 your branches ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. None that are permanently located anywhere, except 
 buying agents, who are seldom still. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you send commercial travelers out on the road ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. We do not. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you explain, for the information of the 
 committee, the nature of the agents ? 
 
 Mr, Thorne. Purchasing exclusively, and information getters,, con- 
 sumers finding out the conditions that exist in any one State, com- 
 munity, or country. 
 
 The Chairman. Are they solely in your employ ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Solely. 
 
 The Chairman. And receive salaries ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes; salaries. 
 
 The Chairman. Commissions also ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Nothing is sold by anybody representing Montgom- 
 ery Ward & Co. 
 
 The Chairman. Does Montgomery Ward & Co. own any factories 
 in or outside of Chicago ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes; we own a factory in Chicago Heights, 111. 
 
 The Chairman. Making what ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Vehicles. 
 
 The Chairman. Any other factories ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. None, except a partial interest or contract for 
 taking either a whole or part of the output, but no direct ownership. 
 
 The Chairman. How many contracts of that nature are there, 
 taking the whole or part of the output ?' 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I should say, as a rough estimate, 20. 
 
 The Chairman. Located geneially over the country, or centralized 
 in any particular locality ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Generally over the central and eastern part of the 
 United States. 
 
 The Chairman. And covering what nature of manufactured 
 articles ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I presume there would be 20 different kinds, varied 
 classes of merchandise. 
 
 The Chairman. All merchandise of the nature of dry goods? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. No; no dry goods. When I say general merchandise 
 I mean hardware, stoves, and furniture, and there are half a dozen 
 different kinds of furniture, and half a dozen different kinds of hard- 
 ware and specialties; some food products. 
 
PARCEL. POST. 879 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly state, in general terms, the 
 different lines of goods that are handled by Montgomery Ward & Co. ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. All classes of merchandise that are not perishable, 
 except automobiles. 
 
 The Chairman. You do not handle automobiles ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. We do not. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly describe, in general terms, the 
 size of the buildings occupied by Montgomery Ward & Co. in Chicago, 
 giving their location and the floor space wherever practicable ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. In Chicago our main building is located at Chicago 
 Avenue and contains, approximately, 19,000,000 cubic feet. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it one building or a series of buildings ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. One building. 
 
 The Chairman. That is your central depot ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. That is the .central station; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you route all your goods from there, or do 
 you route direct in some cases from the factories, with which you have 
 contracts ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. We ship the greater percentage from the Chicago 
 Avenue Bridge, but a very large percentage from various factories 
 with whom we have contracts for the manufacture of merchandise. 
 
 The Chairman. You find, of course, that you make a sufficient 
 saving thereby in transportation ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. But all your orders are received at your central 
 depot in Chicago ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. All Chicago orders; of course, we do the same thing 
 at Kansas City. 
 
 The Chairman. In your branch houses ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. But no orders go direct to the factories. They all 
 go direct to your main depots or to your branches ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What percentage, would you say, roughly, Mr. 
 Thorne, of the volume of business done by you annually goes direct 
 from your main depot, or your branches, and what percentage is 
 routed from the factories direct under your order ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I should divide it into 80 and 20; 80 shipped direct 
 and 20 from the factories. 
 
 The Chairman. It has been stated before this committee, that 
 mail-order houses, such as yours, have been unfair to the retail dealers, 
 often referred to as country merchants, in their advertising campaigns; 
 The committee is not investigating anything in these hearings except 
 the parcel post. Parcel-post legislation will not affect present 
 methods of advertising one way or the other, but if you desire to 
 state what your advertising methods are, as tending to illuminate 
 your methods of doing business, we shall be very glad to have your 
 statement. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I have two paragraphs on that subject; one that I 
 call "misrepresentation in advertising" and the other "misrepresenta^ 
 tion in catalogue quotations." 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly read for the committee, these 
 paragraphs ? We will then include them in the hearings. 
 
880 PARCEL. POST. 
 
 Mr. Thorne (reading): , 
 
 MISREPRESENTATION IN ADVERTISING MATTER. 
 
 It is true that there have been many misrepresentations and gross exaggerations in 
 all kinds of advertisements for many years, but the evil has been diminishing at a 
 very rapid ratio for several years past, largely due to three factors: 
 
 First. As applied to advertising misrepresentation — to the higher standards of 
 advertising set by the majority of publications in late years, for the reason that they 
 have found it profitable to censor this advertising and stand as sponsors for their 
 advertisers with their readers. 
 
 Secondly. To the higher standards of merchandising. This has prevailed in the 
 United States especially in the larger cities and the larger stores during the past few 
 years. The rule of "caveat emptor" has been changed amongst the most reputable 
 houses to mean, "Let the buyer have confidence, we will not abuse your trust. If 
 anything is wrong, we will try and make it right." 
 
 Thirdly. To the higher standards and examples set by catalogue houses of integ- 
 rity, such as Montgomery Ward & Co. , who have for. years paid their employees a reward 
 varying in amounts for each error or misrepresentation discovered by them in any of 
 their printed matter, and also due to the fact that some years ago Montgomery Ward 
 & Co. inaugurated the plan of distributing merchandise on the "Satisfaction guaran- 
 teed or purchase price and charges refunded" plan. This was revolutionary, as the 
 offer meant exactly what it said . No questions are asked if goods are returned , and no 
 matter what the reason for dissatisfaction may be the money and transportation charges 
 both ways are refunded. This method of merchandising eliminates the possibility 
 of misunderstanding or misrepresentation, and requires that the seller be alive, ener- 
 getic, honest, and courteous, and avail himself of every economy in manufacturing, 
 transporting, and selling, with the elimination of all possible waste and extravagance. 
 
 CATALOGUE MISREPRESENTATION. 
 
 The claim has been made frequently, and is still made quite freely by irresponsible 
 people, that catalogue houses misrepresent their goods. I do not believe that cata- 
 logue houses, as a general thing, intentionally misrepresent, for the reason that they 
 could not afford to do so. I know that Montgomery Ward & Co. do not, of their own 
 knowledge or the knowledge of any of their department heads, misrepresent any of the 
 merchandise that they offer for sale, and I am satisfied that no other catalogue house 
 could succeed against this policy of Montgomery Ward & Co. I believe that a number 
 of cases of misrepresentation are due to imperfectly organized buying, merchandis- 
 ing, and cataloguing organizations. It is an obvious fact that any misstatement in 
 the printed quotation remains as evidence of the fact. It is also obvious that the 
 verbal statements made over the counter by a sales clerk to a prospective customer 
 do not remain in evidence after the conversation is ended, and it would be a bold man 
 who would say that as a general thing the tendency to misrepresent, to exaggerate, 
 and certainly to enhance the merits of merchandise under discussion is not much 
 stronger in the case of the sales clerk and customer as compared with the catalogue 
 house methods for the above obvious reason that there is no evidence remaining after 
 the conversation is finished, that would be binding on the seller. 
 
 A careful study of the word "guarantee" in advertisements and printed quotations 
 covering a period of 20 years reveals the fact that while the word had a general and 
 generous use for many years it is no longer used by the larger and more responsible 
 houses except with full knowledge of the meaning of the words guaranteed and 
 warranted. 
 
 The Chairman. What meaning do you put on that word "war- 
 ranted"? - 
 
 Mr. Thorne. In a general way it means that the word should never 
 be used without a modifying or qualifying phrase, such as "guaran- 
 teed for five years," "guaranteed for one year," "guaranteed to do 
 this or that," or if you say guaranteed or warranted without any quali- 
 fying or moderating clause you are practically telling the buyer that 
 you are responsible for almost anything that can happen to those 
 articles. That seems to be my interpretation of the law. 
 
PARCEL POST. 881 
 
 The Chairman. Heretofore, Mr. Thome, in previous years have 
 you in your catalogues put in the word "guaranteed" or "warranted" 
 without qualification ? 
 
 Lr. Thorne. Not within 10 years. 
 
 The Chairman. And prior to that? 
 
 Jir. Thorne. Prior to that, yes; now and then through ignorance. 
 
 The Chairman. Did you have any claims ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes; and that opened our eyes to it for the first time. 
 We would take printed matter furnished to us by the manufacturers, 
 guaranteed, and we would use that, unconsciously and through 
 ignorance. 
 
 The Chairman. During the past 10 years, since you qualified your 
 word "guaranteed" or "warranted," have you had many claims come 
 in under the conditional guarantee or warrant ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Not very many. 
 
 The Chairman. An appreciable amount relative to the volume of 
 business performed ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Not as pertaining especially to quotations or to 
 sales made, because of the use of the words "warranted" or "guar- 
 anteed." 
 
 The Chairman. Qualified?. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Qualified, yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you sell some of your goods at a loss, or 
 exactly at cost, in order to make business, as an indirect method of 
 advertising ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Occasionally only, and for short periods of time. It 
 is a practice that prevails in aU merchandising organizations. 
 
 The Chairman. And is not confined to the mail-order house; it 
 is a general practice, is it not, in all business ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. It is in all retail merchandising organizations. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you consider the plan of selling merchandise 
 by mail, I mean by getting your orders by mail, more economical or 
 better in any way to the consumer than the usual method of buying 
 from local stores ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. It is the foundation of our business. It was the rea- 
 son for the business being and is to-day not only the reason why we 
 have increased our business and made it successful, but it is still the 
 reason for existing, in that it represents what, in my mind, is the most 
 economical method of handling merchandise, because it enables the 
 consumer to in that way buy his supplies, both necessities and luxu- 
 ries, with the practical elimination of one profit, the reason being 
 that a catalogue house either manufactures the goods itself, buys 
 from manufacturers or as near first hand as may be, and sells direct to 
 the consumer, adding thereto only its own profit, in which of necessity 
 is incorporated its selling cost; and if that selling cost can be main- 
 tained upon a percentage basis that does not exceed the ordinary 
 selling cost of a retail store coming in direct contact with the buyer, 
 then the jobbers' profit is eliminated and the cost of the jobbers' 
 handling. 
 
 The Chairman. In your business do you deal with country mer- 
 chants to any extent, or do you deal almost entirely, or entirely, with 
 the consumer himself ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. A great many country merchants buy goods from us, 
 not, as a rule, for the purpose of selling again, although that is fre- 
 
882 PARCEL. POST. 
 
 quently done, but usually buying some luxury or commodity in 
 another line from the line in which they are engaged. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, for their own particular consumption ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. For their own particular consumption, thus making 
 consumers of them in those cases. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, with the elimination of the profit to the 
 jobber by buying direct and the elimination of the profit of the middle- 
 man by reaching the consumer direct. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I have not eliminated that. 
 
 The Chairman. You have not ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. No; we get that; somebody has to have that. 
 
 The Chairman. You take the place then, I mean, of the smaller 
 middleman; you feel that you can do business cheaper through your 
 business machinerv than the smaller dealer or country merchant can 
 doit? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. We do. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any other advantage that the catalogue 
 house enjoys over the large number of small merchants other than 
 the elimination of the jobber? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. There is no other advantage, except that the cata- 
 logue house may perhaps be able to offer a larger range and variety 
 of merchandise than the smaller store can. It nas other advantages 
 and disadvantages, such as time and distance and bother. 
 
 The Chairman. In your centralization method your overhead 
 charges are greatly reduced, are they not, as against the articles sold, 
 in comparison with the same volume of business being done, say, by 
 a thousand country merchants ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Unquestionably. 
 
 The Chairman. So that is an additional advantage to you, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. That advantage is true in connection with every 
 large centralized organization that has learned how to eliminate 
 extravagance, waste, and unnecessary movement of the machinery. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly state the percentage of your 
 business that is done by mail — that is, under the fourth-class mailing 
 privilege — and what percentage is done by freight, and what by 
 express ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. In value, do you mean? 
 
 The Chairman. In value first, if you would; and if you could, we 
 would like not only the percentage in value, but the percentage in 
 weight and the percentage in number of pieces, according to your best 
 judgment, based upon your many years' experience as the general 
 manager of your organization. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. In value the freight shipments are approximately 82 
 per cent of the total, express shipments 10 per cent, and mail ship- 
 ments 8 per cent. I am unable to reduce that into numbers for you. 
 
 The Chairman. That is in volume or pieces ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. In volume or pieces. I could give you the pieces this 
 afternoon. It is only a mental calculation I have to make. 
 
 The Chairman. If you would kindly do so, that would be of value 
 to us in our study of the question. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I will do that. 
 
 The Chairman. What, in your judgment, would be the difference 
 in these percentages if the calculation were made on weight instead 
 of value ? 
 
PARCEL, POST. 883 
 
 Mr. Thorne. On weight ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; would your percentage of 8 now handled 
 in value by mail increase or decrease if estimated on a weight basis ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. It would decrease to almost an infinitesimal amount. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Could you give us, approximately, the average 
 weight of all your shipments 1 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Separated into classes ? 
 
 Senator' Bryan. Separated into shipments; the average weight of 
 the package you ship. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. By mail? 
 
 Senator Bryan. Altogether. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. No; because we treat mail, express, and freight 
 separately. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Can you separate them according to those three 
 classes ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bryan. We would be very glad to have you do that. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I will do that for you this afternoon. 1 
 
 The Chairman. Your business has been built up, has it not, under 
 conditions which now exist, except so far as you have adopted 
 methods which your experience or the experience of other business 
 •men have taught you to believe could be adopted with benefit to the 
 business ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. It has. 
 
 The Chairman. You look for a steady increase in the volume of 
 your business under existing conditions, do you not ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. We know of no reason why we should not have some 
 sort of an increase, whether it may be steady or not. There have 
 been years when we could see a decrease. 
 
 The Chairman. But, under normal conditions, as the country 
 develops you expect to develop with it ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. As the country develops we expect to develop with 
 it, and have some slight increase, as far as we dare to paint the 
 picture on the wall in advance. 
 
 The Chairman. In a general way are you or are you not opposed 
 to a disturbance of present conditions of doing business? In other 
 words, do you welcome changes if you believe they will improve gen- 
 eral business conditions, or do you take the position that you desire 
 to let well enough alone and go on under existing methods ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. We claim, and have always demonstrated by acting, 
 that we are as patriotic as any other group of merchants and believe 
 that what is for the best interests of the greatest number is always 
 obtained, regardless of what it may be or whether or not it gets in 
 our way or we in its v/ay. 
 
 The Chairman. Is your company in favor of or opposed to increas- 
 ing the activity of our present parcel post as embodied under the 
 fourth-class mail matter privilege ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. We find it just as hard for us to make up our minds 
 on that point as the Senate committee finds it, and are seeking infor- 
 mation in every direction ourselves, so that we may arrive at a sane 
 and more intelligent decision. Our opinion is that the people want 
 the parcel post as far as we are able to read or feel the pulse of public 
 
884 PARCEL POST. 
 
 opinion, and that is all we know at the present time, except as based 
 upon certain thoughts in connection with particular features that I 
 will answer when you ask me the questions that I know you are 
 going to ask me later on. 
 
 The Chairman. In that connection, can you give, for the informa- 
 tion of the committee, these particular features which you say you 
 anticipate, questions relative to later on ? 
 
 Mr. Thoene. I thought you were going to ask me some questions 
 about the parcel post that you have under consideration, and I have 
 two thoughts in that connection, but my answers or my thoughts 
 are based upon probabilities, and I will have to let it go as based upon 
 that. With reference to increasing the weight limit from 4 to 11 
 pounds, the bulk of Montgomery Ward & Co.'s fourth-class packages 
 are either small packages carrying postage of from 2 to 25 cents or 
 packages addressed to far-away points and points off of the line of the 
 railroads, where 16 cents per pound is at present the cheapest method 
 of transporting small articles. Hundreds of times monthly our 
 packers are compelled to make 10 or more 4-pound packages 
 addressed to one consignee and very often to cut an overcoat or 
 lady's cloak up the back or take off one or both sleeves in order to 
 come within the 4-pound limit, which seems ridiculous to all those 
 concerned in the process. 
 
 (At this point, 2.30 o'clock p. m., Senators Joseph L. Bristow and 
 Frank 0. Briggs, members of the subcommittee, came in.) 
 
 Mr. Thorne (continuing). The freight rate on merchandise, as 
 computed from our records, averages from $1 to $1.25 per 100 pounds. 
 The rate on merchandise express packages, as computed from our 
 records, averages $4 per 100 pounds; so that in any event a parcel- 
 post rate of 12 cents a pound, 10 cents a pound, or even 8 cents a 
 pound, will not divert much freight or express traffic from present 
 channels, except for long hauls. Such a reduction will be greatly 
 appreciated by and will be of great benefit to citizens living in remote 
 and sparsely settled communities. 
 
 The Chairman. Then an increase in weight limit from 4 pounds to 
 11 pounds and a decrease in postage, even down to 5 or 6 cents per 
 pound, would be no benefit to you in your business because of the 
 lower competitive rate of the express companies and freight rate of 
 the railroad companies, and you would only utilize the increased 
 activity to reach points not reached directly by the railroad or the 
 express company ? Is that true ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. In the majority of cases; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And the reason that 8 per cent of your business, 
 figured on the value basis, is now carried through the United States 
 mail is because of your inability to reach your customers directly 
 through the railroads or through the express companies % 
 
 Mr. Thorne. That is true in the majority of cases, excepting solely 
 the spasmodic and occasional order that is liable to come from any- 
 where without any apparent reason. Those in the aggregate amount 
 to quite a few, but not 10 per cent of the whole. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, not 10 percent of the 8 per cent of that 
 class of the business ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes. I use that 10 per cent without any knowledge 
 of the facts. It is my own judgment. 
 
PARCEL POST. 885 
 
 The Chairman. Has your company, or have you yourself, ever 
 expressed to any Government official your attitude in reference to 
 an enlargement of our present parcel-post system as represented by 
 fourth-class mail matter ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I never have. I do not know whether any other 
 official of our company has or not. I think not. 
 
 The Chairman. In the transmission of such fourth-class mail 
 matter as you now send through the mail, who pays the postage, you 
 or the consumer ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. The buyer in all cases. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, in all classes of transportation, whether by 
 railroad or express, or through utilization of the postal service, the 
 buyer presumably has to bear the cost of transportation, either 
 directly or indirectly, does he not, in every instance ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Always. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you use the mails largely in sending first-class 
 mail, such as letters, correspondence, etc. ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Very largely. 
 
 The Chairman. How much money do you pay probably per annum 
 in first-class postage in the transaction of your business ? Have you 
 any idea? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I have not the figures; I do not know. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you favor the reduction of first-class post- 
 age from 2 cents to 1 cent an ounce ? * 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I would not like to venture an opinion as to that, 
 because, in my judgment, it is dependent upon so many other things; 
 my thought being that the Government can not reduce postage on 
 everything. If it reduces the rate on merchandise, it can not at 
 the same time reduce the rate on first-class matter and keep second- 
 class where it is, and operate the department at a profit or make it 
 self-supporting. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you use the mails largely for the transmission 
 of catalogues at the third-class rate ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Very largely. 
 
 The Chairman. Could you tell the committee what you paid the 
 Government for distribution of catalogues as third-class mail last 
 year? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I do not know the exact figures for last year, but 
 I have in mind an ajuproximate total? 
 
 The Chairman. An average per annum ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. It will amount to between one and a half and two 
 million dollars. 
 
 The Chairman. Annually ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. How much does one of your large catalogues 
 weigh ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. The weights vary, but the large catalogues run from 
 45 to 58 ounces. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you smaller catalogues ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. A great many; booklets, pamphlets, and circulars, 
 on which the weights will run 2 ounces to 10 ounces. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you mail the bulk of your catalogues at one 
 time, or is the business pretty well distributed throughout the year ? 
 
886 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. It is scattered throughout the year, with peak loads 
 at certain seasons, the fall season being the heaviest. 
 
 The Chairman. Are they all shipped from the main office at Chi- 
 cago, or do you make some of your shipments from other points ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. All are shipped from Chicago. 
 
 The Chairman. And distributed generally over the country? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Distributed generally. 
 
 The Chairman. How long a period is consumed in distribution; 
 that is, in the shipment of your catalogues from the main office? 
 Does it take days or weeks or months, annually, when you get your 
 main catalogue out ? I mean the peak of your catalogue business ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. We mail them every day. It is continuous all the 
 year around. 
 
 The Chairman. But I understood you to say that the peak of your 
 business was in the fall, for the distribution of your catalogues. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. The peak load will last for a period of 45 days, 
 approximately; say, 60 days, from August 15 until October 15. 
 
 The Chairman. And your aim is to reach all your customers that 
 are on your books during that period with your catalogues each year ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And your business is continued as you get at your 
 new business through the issuance of new catalogues or pamphlets; 
 is that correet ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Th*t is correct. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Do you know how many of the large catalogues 
 you sent out during the year 1911, approximately? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I should say, approximately, 2,000,000, something 
 less than 2,000,000. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Can you give an approximate estimate of the 
 number of customers you have in the country? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Well, our division, a subdivision of what we call cus- 
 tomers would be quite different from what the ordinary interpretation 
 would convey. We have a great many names, but do not use them 
 for everything, because we classify them down, both by the magnitude 
 of their purchases and by reason of their location, so that for one class 
 of merchandise we would circulate only to a list of names that were 
 more or less contiguous to Chicago, based entirely upon freight rates 
 and express rates and dependent upon the class oj goods and the 
 season of the year. We practically have no general list of customers, 
 because we specialize. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Could you give the aggregate number of pur- 
 chasers during the year 1911 in all classes, approximately, of course? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I could not give it. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you ever figured, Mr. Thorne, in your busi-; 
 ness studies, how many catalogues it took you to get a new customer ?■» 
 In other words, the dollar deduction as to the cost of the method ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. We have wasted many pencils on that subject. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you ever come to a conclusion ? 
 •Mr. Thorne. We have not arrived at any. The cost varies for 
 reasons given in my other answers. It depends upon the season, the 
 locality and class, so that there is no one general answer that we can 
 use in our business. 
 
 The Chairman. But on your doctrine of averages, I thought you 
 might have figured out 10 catalogues brought you so much business, 
 
PARCEL, POST. 887 
 
 or 20, or 13, or whatever the number might show in case you had 
 ever made a study along that particular line. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. We have figured it, but we are now ready to refigure 
 it, and I do not want to use the figures. 
 
 The Chairman. You have not become satisfied in your own 
 mind? 
 
 Mr. Thoene. No. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Can you give us an estimate of the number of 
 orders you have received in 1911 ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I would not care to give an estimate, because I do 
 not know. 
 
 The Chairman. I assume that many of your orders are aggre- 
 gate orders — that is, one general order covering perhaps a dozen other 
 orders from other individuals — are they not ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. There is a percentage of that class of orders, but it is 
 not as large as might appear. I do not suppose that more than 5 
 per cent, or possibly 10 per cent, of our orders are what we call "club 
 orders." 
 
 Senator Bryan. Is any compensation paid for the getting together 
 of the "club orders"? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. No compensation whatever. There is no incentive 
 for anyone to get one. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Except the freight rate, the rate of transportation ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Only the saving that they can make for themselves; 
 that is the only incentive. 
 
 The Chairman. You only have the one price to all consumers; 
 no commssion? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. No discounts and no commissions. 
 
 The Chairman. And no agents anywhere in the field. This morn- 
 ing in your testimony you made mention of individuals that you 
 had traveling over the country for the purpose of reporting to you, 
 as I remember, the conditions of business and satisfaction in refer- 
 ence to your own business, servi?e to customers, etc. How many 
 men, might I ask, have you on a salary of that nature ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Not to exceed five or six people. 
 
 The Chairman. Then their function is not to drum up business? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Not at all. 
 
 The Chairman. It is simply to ascertain conditions over the 
 country and to report to the home office; is that correct? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Entirely that. 
 
 The Chairman. A short time ago, I understood you to state that 
 you distributed in round numbers last year 2,000,000 copies of 
 your large catalogue. What per cent of that distribution was 
 probably shipped during the period in the fall, when you said the 
 catalogue business, or distribution of the catalogue rather, was at 
 its peak ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. One million during that 60-day period. 
 
 The Chairman. Are most of your customers in the rural districts 
 or in the cities, or pretty well distributed in both ? 
 
 Mr. Thoene. They are fairly well distributed everywhere. 
 
 The Chairman. About equally distributed, would you say, be- 
 tween the urban and suburban classes of our population ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I think so; eliminating the very largest cities. 
 
888 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 The Chairman. In the cities in which you have your home office, 
 Chicago, and your branch houses, do you sell at all to the residents 
 of the city ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. We do not. 
 
 The Chairman. Do the catalogue houses, generally, adopt the 
 same rule ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. As far as I know, generally, they have. 
 
 The Chairman. May I ask the reason why you make no sales in 
 the cities in which you are located ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. The chief reason is that we have always conceived 
 the catalogue business to be a business by itself, and that customers 
 ordering by mail, if their goods are shipped, will get the best possible 
 selections and assortments and that the personal selection feature is 
 removed, the other feature being that it takes much more space for 
 handling goods that are sold to the buyer in person. It takes a 
 clerk much longer to make the sales, our theory being that a clerk 
 can fill $100 worth of orders while he is selling $10 worth. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you send a resident of the city a catalogue 
 if he asked for it ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. We would not. 
 
 The Chairman. You would to any cities outside of the cities in 
 which your main office or branch offices are doing business, would 
 you not ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. No, sir. There are 8 or 10 large cities that we do 
 not care to bother with. We figure that the catalogue would be a 
 wasted investment in our business in 9 cases out of 10, so that we 
 write them a polite letter and do not send a catalogue, wishing to 
 sow our seed on more fertile soil. 
 
 The Chairman. What do you make your line of demarcation, popu- 
 lation of a city or locality in conjunction with population? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Oh, blind judgment. An arbitrary list will be made 
 up and they do not go beyond it. 
 
 The Chairman. How often do you reprint your large catalogue, 
 once a year ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Once a year. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you ever stated in your catalogue that per- 
 sons representing themselves to be your agents would be considered 
 as impostors, as you had no agents ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. We have stated it constantly for 25 years. 
 
 The Chairman. This statement is still included m your current 
 literature ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. It is. 
 
 The Chairman. What do you find the necessity for inserting that 
 in your catalogue ? Is it because people over the country have mis- 
 represented themselves as being your agents ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. They have, and have frequently collected money 
 and not made any accounting to us for it. 
 
 The Chairman. In cases of that kind, what action do you take ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Well, if we hear of it, we wire the sheriff of the county 
 and try to get him, and sometimes we do. 
 
 1 he Chairman. Has that been attempted to any degree ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Many times; no less than 8 or 10 times during 
 the past year. 
 
PARCEL POST. 889 
 
 The Chairman. What do you figure the cost per catalogue in mak- 
 ing up and printing, getting ready for mailing, etc. ; that is, your big 
 catalogues ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I would prefer not to answer that question, on the 
 ground that we have spent a long time in devising ways and means 
 and that the item is somewhat personal and secret. 
 
 The Chairman. The catalogues are always furnished free, are they 
 not, in your distribution, either upon application or upon your own 
 initiation ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Either way, free. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you competitors in the catalogue business ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Quite a number. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly state, for the information of the 
 committee, the line of demarcation that you make between catalogue 
 houses and mail-order houses ? I noticed this morning in your testi- 
 mony you dwelt specifically upon the fact that you were a catalogue 
 house, and not a mail-order house. I think that would be of value 
 to the committee. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Going back quite a number of years, I discovered 
 that the tendency was to call a mail-order house all the class of people 
 who sent goods by mail, and inasmuch as we were not particularly 
 occupied or interested in sending goods by mail, we did not want to 
 be classified as a mail-order house, because in the mind of the individual 
 that is what it meant, and there being no real comprehensive or de- 
 scriptive term, we fell back upon "catalogue house," as the only thing 
 left to us, lacking another descriptive English word. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, your idea was simply the adoption of a word 
 which would eliminate the apparently mistaken conception of the 
 people that you were transporting your goods through the mail ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Right. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any distinction in the trade itself between 
 catalogue houses and mail-order houses that is known to the specialists 
 in the business? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 The Chairman. All the mail-order houses, that is all business houses 
 seeking business through the mail rather than through commercial 
 travelers and branches, use catalogues, do they not? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. To a greater or less extent? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly give the committee information 
 as to the number of catalogue houses doing business in Chicago ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I think that an explanation as to what is meant by a 
 catalogue house would be pertinent here, because I am now thinking 
 of a wholesale grocery house. 
 
 The Chairman. If you will kindly make your own explanation. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I know a wholesale grocery house that does business 
 strictly through the mails and by means of circulars and catalogues, 
 a very large establishment, that has no traveling men. That same 
 thing might be true of any line of business, and in order that they 
 would not be included in the term "catalogue house," as I understand 
 it, and as I think this committee understands it, and confining it to 
 what I think we are talking about, I should say that there are perhaps 
 10 catalogue houses in Chicago. 
 
890 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. That only do business at a distance in reply to 
 orders through mail and do no business and serve no customers in the 
 city itself? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And that is your line of distinction, is it not, in 
 your own mind? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes, sir; eliminating specialty houses and the jobbing 
 houses. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; but they do business in the city itself, do 
 they not ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I do not know. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I was asking for information. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Are there any catalogue houses, as you under- 
 stand the term, outside of Chicago ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. There are quite a number. Just how many I do not 
 know. They keep coming and going. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you name for the committee the houses in 
 Chicago that, according to your own classification, you would desig- 
 nate as catalogue houses ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I looked that up about a year ago, and I do not 
 now remember the names of all the houses. I can name three or 
 four prominent ones. 
 
 The Chairman. If you would kindly name the prominent ones. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Sears, Koebuck & Co.; John M. Smyth & Co.; the 
 Chicago House Wrecking Co.; the Harmon Furniture Co.; Spiegel, 
 May, Stern & Co.; the Chicago Mail Order House; and AlbaughBros. 
 & Dover. There are a few others whose names I do not now recall. 
 
 The Chairman. I have heard it stated that the annual gross 
 business of the catalogue houses in Chicago was about $120,000,000. 
 Would you say that that was a fair estimate, or would you think it 
 was too large or too small ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I should say that was a fair estimate. 
 
 The Chairman. I have understood that some trade papers have 
 given these estimates. Are you familiar with that matter? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes; I have noticed the figures in the annual review 
 of some of the papers, and that has been the latest figure given as 
 representing the total. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you would say that $120,000,000 annual 
 volume of gross business would be a fair estimate as to the activities 
 of the mail-order houses located in the city of Chicago ? Have you 
 any idea or knowledge which would enable you to make a statement 
 as to the probable volume of the total business in the United States 
 of catalogue houses, in round numbers ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I should estimate it to be between one hundred and 
 seventy-five and two hundred million dollars for the entire United 
 States. 
 
 The Chairman. So that Chicago does more than 50 per cent of the 
 catalogue-house business of the United States? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you mailing machinery, such as envelope 
 sealers, addressing machines, etc ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. So that you figure you can handle the distribu- 
 tion of literature, making the union between yourself and the pub- 
 
PARCEL POST. 891 
 
 lie at the smallest possible cost in the way of taking advantage of 
 every f acility known ? 
 
 Mr. Thoene. We try to reduce the cost to the lowest reasonable 
 point. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You spoke of a wholesale grocery company that 
 had no traveling men, that solicited business by mail. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, is it a large establishment or a small one 1 
 
 Mr. Thorne. The W. M. Hoyt Co., that has been in business in 
 Chicago for 40 or 50 years, I should think, and one of the largest job- 
 bing houses there. They have had no representatives for many years, 
 that I know of. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do they send their catalogues to grocers 1 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes; catalogues, letters, and price lists. Their sole 
 means of getting business, as far as I know, is through the medium of 
 the mails. I have no doubt there are other jobbing houses in other 
 lines throughout the country that do business in that same way. 
 
 The ChairMan. Do you extend credit under any conditions to 
 your customers, or is it all a strictly cash business ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Ninety-nine and nine-tenths per cent are cash with 
 order. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you do a foreign business ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne . % Quite a large foreign business. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you give the committee the benefit of the 
 information as to the method under which you secure and transact 
 your foreign business? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Well, it is rather thin ice for me, because this is a 
 specialty business by itself, and we have had experts in charge of it 
 for many years. We always approach that department with fear and 
 trembling ourselves, because it is so intricate, so intricate that no 
 other catalogue house in the United States has attempted to go into 
 the foreign field. We have been developing it for something between 
 fifteen and twenty years. We now have several hundred people 
 doing nothing else than attending to foreign business. The foreign 
 business is largely confined to shipments to Mexico, Central American 
 States, the West Indies, South Africa, certain parts of the Orient, and 
 with a considerable business in New Zealand and Australia. 
 
 Senator Bryan. How about Canada? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I left Canada out purposely, and I will tell you why. 
 The large part of our business in dollars, in money value, is composed 
 of freight shipments, but the percentage is much larger in foreign than 
 in domestic business, of the parcel post, as compared with the freight, 
 there being practically no way to distribute merchandise to people 
 living in small places in foreign countries, except by using the mails. 
 There are the difficulties that are outlined by the parcel-post regu- 
 lations of the foreign countries, and all the intricate problems that 
 are presented by reason of that and the custom tariff and the con- 
 sular certificates, making the business very complicated, except to 
 those who understand it thoroughly. We have great difficulty in 
 shipping merchandise to Cuba, because of the Cuban difficulties in 
 the way of requiring eight copies of the invoice to he made out 
 and a copy to be vis6d by the local Cuban consul, and it has about 
 reached the stage now where we are prepared to write the people 
 who send us an order from Cuba and tell them we do not care for 
 
892 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 the business and refund the money rather than bother with it. 
 This matter I have taken up in detail in another section, and made 
 a communication touching on the foreign business. If you would 
 like to have me go right on with that, I will do so. 
 
 The Chairman. We would like to have you do that, so as to give 
 us information as to how you built up this business. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I think, with due reverence to the parcel-post situa- 
 tion and to the work that this Senate committee has in front of it, 
 this is the most important thing now on the carpet, because there 
 would be no two minds about it. The facts are that to none of the 
 colonies of the United States can we send by mail anything except 
 a 4-pound package at 16 cents per pound, while all of our colonies 
 are open to all of the countries of the International Postal Union at 
 their rates. The result is that we are unable to export into our own 
 colonies in competition with Germany and other European nations. 
 On the other hand, we are barred from sending to the same foreign 
 colonies of several European countries ourselves. In other words, 
 tliey let them into all of our colonies, but we are not permitted to go 
 into all theirs. It hardly seems equitable. 
 
 The Chairman. That is an injustice, from your viewpoint, to our 
 own population '! 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes, sir; and also an injustice according to practically 
 all of the officials of the Post Office Department, the. Department of 
 Commerce and Labor, and the Bureau of Foreign Relations. I do 
 not know how far you would like me to go. 
 
 The Chairman. We would like very much for you to read for the 
 committee the letter which you had from your foreign representative, 
 which you stated, in your informal remarks a few moments ago, con- 
 tained a lot of information of value. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I shall be glad to read extracts from that letter, 
 because it is a letter written to some one else, and it would not be fair 
 to use it except we can get just that information from it. [Reading:] 
 
 Without meaning to criticise the department we may be pardoned for calling atten- 
 tion to a fact that is patent to all careful observers, viz: the Government, through the 
 State Department and the Department of Commerce and Labor, is spending large 
 sums to further the interests of the exporting trade of this country. Might it not be 
 the part of statesmanship for the Post Office Department to cooperate along with these 
 other departments, even if the expense of doing so would exceed the department's 
 estimates of what it should be? 
 
 We beg to assure you that our Government, our Post Office Department, and our 
 exporting interests are criticised and even jeered at for what appears to be a failure 
 on our part to realize the absolute importance of better postal arrangements in our 
 dealings with countries whose commerce we are attempting to invade. 
 
 It is evident that the exporting nations of Europe hilly realize the importance to 
 us of reaching their colonies by the parcel post. They have learned by experience 
 how essential the parcel post is in establishing trade with a new country; therefore 
 we are not surprised that you have encountered opposition in your efforts to arrange 
 such exchanges. We feel very sure that something more than requests is required; 
 pressure will have to be brought to bear before our commercial rivals will admit us. 
 to a share in what are now their exclusive facilities. It seems to us the part of wisdom 
 to withdraw Porto Rico, the Philippines, the Canal Zone, etc., from the parcel post 
 arrangements with European countries unless those countries give us equal privileges 
 toward their far-away possessions. Rest assured the great American market is fully 
 appreciated by our European rivals, and the advantage that they have over us by rea- 
 son of their abilitv to forward merchandise by parcel post to our far-away possessions 
 is not lost sight of by them for a single moment. 
 
 A firm stand on the part of our Government, with a polite intimation that longer 
 refusal to admit us to their colonies won Id soon result in cutting off from them a part of 
 our market, would soon bring them to time. It is by just such little things as parcel 
 
PAECEL POST. 893 
 
 post, collecting C. O. D. balances through the mail, allowing parcels to be sealed, 
 postal insurance, etc., that the supremacy in export trade enjoyed by our European 
 rivals is rendered unassailable. 
 
 All of the American consuls are continually saying that if we are to wrest a fair share 
 of the world's trade from England and Europe we must do everything that our rivals 
 do. We can not do these things with "trial" and "sample" orders until our Govern- 
 ment gives us better facilities for reaching these far-away places. 
 
 Your policy of only forwarding parcel-post mails by direct steamers is no doubt 
 cheaper than to forward such mails by the quickest route, just as first-class matter is 
 forwarded; but the saving that you thus effect is at a cost that you can not estimate. 
 Parcel-post packages should be forwarded as quickly as letters whenever it is at all 
 possible to do so. Every day's delay is one more obstacle for American exporters to 
 surmount, and is one more reason why our European rivals retain the trade. 
 
 With all due respect, we beg to give it as our judgment that the Government can well 
 afford, in view of the energetic efforts being made by the State Department, to press the 
 matter of foreign parcel post until, in that respect at least, American exporters shall be 
 as well equipped as their European rivals. 
 
 We note that steps are being taken by your office to secure arrangements, so far as 
 German Samoa is concerned. We beg to say in this connection there are other Ger- 
 man colonies with which the United States could do more business than she does with 
 Samoa, and where the opportunities are much greater. There is already a direct- 
 steamer line plying from the United States to Samoa, and small shipments can be tent 
 without great difficulty, but it is a very difficult thing to send small parcels to the 
 German colonies in China and Africa. 
 
 Why not insist in return for the privilege of shipping by parcel post to Porto Rico, 
 the Philippines, and the Canal Zone, Hawaii, and Alaska that we be permitted the 
 use of all German mails via Hamburg? That would 1 e an ideal exchange. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you taken th'.s matter up vr'th the Post 
 Office Department direct % 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. "What was the attitude of the department, as you 
 ascertained it ? 
 
 Mr. ThOrne. They have all agreed with us in our views, and have 
 expressed their opinion to the effect that they hope they can bring 
 about, if they have the power to do so, a more equitable situation, 
 and place American exporters on a fairer and more competitive bas : s 
 
 The Chairman. When was the matter first brought to the atten- 
 tion of the Post Office Department \ 
 
 Mr. Thorne. On August 30, 1911. 
 
 The Chairman. So that the matter is now under consideration % 
 
 Mr. Thorne. It is now under consideration. As late as December 
 21 last I had a letter from them on the subject. 
 
 The Chairman. It is to be adjusted under the authority given the 
 Postmaster General, by and with the advice and consent of the Presi- 
 dent, to make his arrangements in the postal convention, I assume, 
 with these countries. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I assume so, but I am not familiar with the situation 
 to that extent. 
 
 The Chairman. Is your foreign business growing every year? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Every year. 
 
 The Chairman. And you do more of a foreign business than all the 
 rest of the catalogue houses in the United States, in j^our opinion ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Much more. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you come into competition in our own colonies 
 with European nations ? Do they have much of a trade in the Philip- 
 pines or in Porto Kico ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I am not prepared to answer that question. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Did you say that you send a good deal of your 
 merchandise abroad by freight X 
 
894 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. By freight. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What per cent by freight and what per cent by 
 mail? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Well, I will hazard the opinion that 60 per cent in 
 value goes by freight and 40 per cent by mail. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you use the express at all in foreign business ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Infinitesimally. 
 
 The Chairman. This morning you gave the committee the benefit 
 of the information as to the percentages of your business transacted 
 on a value basis, as I remember it, 82 per cent by freight and 10 per 
 cent by express and 8 per cent by mail. Have you been able to 
 work out the percentage basis on a weight basis and on a piece basis? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. The average weight of each freight shipment is 125 
 pounds ; of each express shipment, 6 pounds ; and of each mail ship- 
 ment, 8 to 9 ounces. J 
 
 The Chairman. Then the percentage on the piece basis, individual 
 units, I mean, of shipments ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I am unable to give you figures that would be of any 
 value, because I am not sure of my ground, not knowing how many 
 pieces there are in freight shipments. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Could you give us the figures as between express 
 and mail ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes; but it would not be a percentage of the whole. 
 
 Senator Bryan. As between those two, the relative number of 
 packages ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Well, I would rather not answer it than to go so far 
 from the mark as I might if I should attempt it. 
 
 The Chairman. In your foreign trade, do you deliver' all your 
 packages to the Chicago post office ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. All mail packages; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. What formalities do you have to comply with in 
 your foreign business ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. That I am unable to answer. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a matter of detail that does not come under 
 your supervision ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I never want to know. 
 
 The Chairman. Under a parcel-post system, increasing the weight 
 from 4 pounds toll pounds and decreasing the present rate of post- 
 age at least 50 per cent, would you use the mails at all in local de- 
 liveries ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I do not quite understand what you mean by "local 
 deliveries." 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the question is a little ambiguous. I will 
 put the question in this way : You say you do no business in Chicago 
 itself. How great a distance from Chicago does a customer have to 
 reside before you will send him a catalogue upon application and 
 fill his order of goods upon request ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. About 25 miles, there being no exact measurement. 
 
 The Chairman. Then to customers, assuming for this particular 
 question that customers residing within a radius of 25 miles to 50 
 miles from Chicago, who, as I understand, under your present system 
 you would be willing to serve and would be glad to, would you utilize 
 
 i Considering this answer and previous testimony, the percentages of all shipments, according to 
 weight, are even, assuming the percentages according to weight to be the same as the percentages 
 according to value: Freight, 99.38 per cent ; express, 0.58 per cent ; mail, 0.04 per cent. 
 
paroeij post. 895 
 
 the mails as your method of delivery for that scope of territory to 
 any great extent ? 
 
 Mr. Thoene. Not unless so instructed by the customer and unless 
 the class of merchandise ordered would warrant such a method of 
 transportation. 
 
 The Chairman. Do your customers ever come to Chicago to look 
 at your goods ? 
 
 •Mr. Thorne. About 150,000 per year. 
 
 The Chairman. Do they make their selections there or fill their 
 orders there? 
 
 Mr. Thokne. Make their selections and either take the goods with 
 them or have them shipped. 
 
 The Chairman. The customer in every case does the routing;, does 
 he? 
 
 _ Mr. Thorne. Not in every case. If he gives us shipping instruc- 
 tions we follow them, if not we have routing clerks who' attend to it 
 for him and with, due regard to his best interests. 
 
 Senator Briggs. How do you sell them, f . o. b ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. F. o. b. Chicago, our shipping point. 
 
 The Chairman. You have, then, what you call a regular clientele 
 of customers that you have had for years, do you ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. A great many for many years. 
 
 The Chairman. New customers coming in all the time as the 
 business develops ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. As I remember it, this morning you stated to the 
 committee that you were making a study of the parcel-post question, 
 and that you had as yet come to no conclusion whether the enlarge- 
 ment of the weight from 4 pounds to 1 1 pounds and a material decrease 
 in postage would be of special benefit to you and your business indi- 
 vidually. Am I correct m my recollection ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. That we are making a study of it, yes; but we have 
 not come to any definite conclusion, except as stated in answer to the 
 question in which I was asked to give my views as to the effect of 
 increasing the weight limit and reducing the postage. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, as I remember that, and I will ask you to 
 correct me if I am wrong in my recollection, your attitude was favor- 
 able to increasing the facility in sparsely settled localities and the 
 utilization of the rural routes, because of your inability to reach the 
 trade tributary to those routes through the railroads by freight or 
 through the express companies in their activities. Is that correct ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Well, I would hardly call it an attitude. I do not 
 know that we have any attitude in the matter. I gave you my 
 opinion as to what would be the result if such and such things took 
 place. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly repeat it ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Our opinion being based upon information obtained 
 from our business to the effect that the bulk of our fourth class 
 packages are either small packages carrying postage of from 2 to 25 
 cents, or packages addressed to far-away points and points off the 
 lines of railroads, where 16 cents per pound is the cheapest method 
 of transporting small articles. Hundreds of times monthly our 
 packers are compelled to make up 10 or more 4-pound packages 
 addressed to one consignee and very often to cut an overcoat or 
 
.-> 
 
 896 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 ladies' cloak up the back or take off one or both sleeves in order to 
 get within the 4-pound limit. I then gave the average rate on 
 freight shipments, on express shipments, and gave it as my judg- 
 ment that a parcel-post rate of 10 cents, 12 cents, or even 8 cents per 
 pound, would not divert much express traffic or freight traffic from 
 the present channels, except on the long hauls. What effect that 
 will have on our business and what our attitude is, or what we would 
 care about it, I do not know. I am in the same position this com- 
 mittee is, we are thrashing around to find out. 
 
 The Chairman. Now your estimate of $1 to $1.25 as a freight 
 rate on 100 pounds and $4 per 100 pounds as an express rate is based 
 on the average haul in your business, is it ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. The average haul. 
 
 The Chairman. And what do you figure for mail, the average haul 
 of your business ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. We have never reduced it to a mileage basis, but 1 
 should say that would mean an average haul of 500 miles, that being 
 approximately the haul on first-class shipments, 500 miles. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you give the committee the benefit of your 
 views as to the advantages that the mail-order house or catalogue- 
 house business enjoys over the retail merchants in the country 
 towns or cities that you come into competition with. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Do you wish me to repeat the general remarks of 
 this morning covering that subject? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; I would like to get the matter again before 
 the committee. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. The principles of merchandising as represented by 
 Montgomery "Ward & Co. are based upon either manufacturing the 
 merchandise or buying them from manufacturers or from the nearest 
 possible first hands, and selling them directly to the consumer, elim- 
 inating what seems to us but an unnecessary element in a great many 
 cases, to wit, the jobber, and one handling and one profit on the mer- 
 chandise. That, together with the large variety and assortment 
 afforded the prospective buyers and to correct the economical mer- 
 chandising methods in the elimination of all waste and unnecessary 
 motions and movements, thus reducing the cost of handling to us, is 
 our excuse for being in business. 
 
 The Chairman. And you also subst'tute yourself, do you not, as 
 the distributors for the country merchant ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. We make no claims in that direction. We claim that 
 our system is better than any that existed prior to our engaging in 
 business. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Better for whom I 
 
 Mr. Thorne. It is more economical to the ultimate consumer, 
 enabling him to save a certain number of cents out of each dollar's 
 purchase. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Does the merchant who can exhibit his goods to 
 the view of the consumer have an advantage over the catalogue 
 house ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. He certainly does. I have named the only advant- 
 ages that we have; every other apparent advantage is a disadvantage. 
 We are remote and have a lot of trouble and bother; a person has to 
 get a money order and go to the post office and get the goods; and, 
 
PARCEL POST. 897 
 
 altogether, as I have stated, every other apparent advantage is not 
 an advantage. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You said that you did not distribute catalogues 
 within a radius approximately of 25 miles of Chicago. Why do you 
 not ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. In order to keep the crowds of people out of our 
 store: 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, but couldn't you receive mail orders from 
 the city of Chicago just as well as from St. Louis by mail I 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Perhaps; but in the distribution of our catalogues 
 we carefully consider the worth of each prospect and the cost of 
 getting business. In our judgment there would be too many wasted 
 catalogues in the large cities for us to undertake it. Therefore, we 
 eliminate that element from the situation entirely by sending none. 
 A great many people would not order. They would want to come 
 in the store and pick over the goods and handle them and match 
 colors, and do all the things that are done in retail stores that we 
 have not time for. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, you have not the force of employees to 
 show the goods and you figure that it would be a waste of time ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. It would increase our selling cost. 
 
 Senator Briggs. How many, did you say, of your customers call 
 at your store each year, 150,000 ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes; being visitors to Chicago for all possible reasons. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you show them your goods ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But do they select any goods when they come, 
 or just simply look at the establishment ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. They select goods and look at the establishment. 
 They do whatever they want to do within reason. We do not urge 
 anyone to buy. If they wish to buy, we sell them. They take the 
 goods with them. If they do not want to buy, they simply look 
 around. The majority of those people are visitors to Chicago. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Would you prefer to receive all of your orders 
 by mail rather than have your customers come to the store ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. We would. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It is more economical ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. At least we could handle the business at 5 or 10 per 
 cent less cost if we eliminate the person. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is because of the time taken up in showing 
 the goods ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Because of the time taken up in showing the goods. 
 
 Senator Briggs. When they are looking over your catalogue they 
 are not wasting any of your time ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Not at all. 
 
 The Chairman. How long a time from the receipt of an order in the 
 mail do you figure it takes to complete that order and have it on your 
 platform ready for shipment ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Twenty-four hours. 
 
 The Chairman. Twenty-four hours after you receive the order the 
 goods are started for the consumer ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is there a considerable percentage of your busi- 
 .ness from cities, as well as from the country ? 
 
898 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I would not call it a considerable percentage. It is 
 a very small percentage. It is practically negligible. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The bulk of your business is from the rural 
 population ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. From the rural population and smaller towns. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Can you name the cities to which you do not send 
 your catalogues ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I can not; I should say the 10 largest in the country, 
 roughly, but I am not sure. That is placed at the discretion of some 
 one man in our place and he decides. He does not bother anyone 
 else about it. 
 
 Senator Briggs. You mean that if some one in New York wrote you 
 for your catalogue, you would not send it to him ? 
 
 Air. Thorne. No, we would not. We would send him a polite form 
 letter, telling him why. The same thing would be true of Chicago, 
 Detroit, and other cities. 
 
 Senator Briggs. In other words, you think you have not advan- 
 tages enough over the dealers in those cities to make it profitable for 
 you? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Well, there are many other reasons that are involved, 
 which I do not think would interest you at all ; for instance, a catalogue 
 is rather expensive, and we must feel that the person who asks for it 
 is a reasonably fair prospective buyer, before we send it. We feel 
 there are so many merchants in other lines of business who would like 
 to see the catalogue merely out of curiosity, and they cost us a con- 
 siderable sum, and it reduces the percentage of profitable business, 
 so we eliminate it all, as it is better for us. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You were going to tell us about Canada, a while 
 ago. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Canada has the most beautiful Chinese wall around 
 it of any country on earth, by reason of a clause which prohibits the 
 importation of printed matter, except upon the payment of duty at 
 the rate of 15 cents per pound. 
 
 Senator Bryan. The importation of what ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Printed matter of any kind from foreign countries; 
 that shuts out every form of circular, catalogue, booklet, or pamphlet. 
 
 Senator Bryan. So vou do not send them there on account of the 
 duty ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Except where the customer will pay the duty, and it 
 is about 45 cents on a catalogue. 
 
 The Chairman. In addition to the postage ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. In addition to the postage. 
 
 The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you do not do much businBss 
 Avith them ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Some, but not much, and we do not seek it for that 
 reason. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That increases the cost of the catalogue to your 
 customer ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You do not sell your catalogues ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. No. We send them and let them pay the duty and 
 when they get a notice from the custom house that there is 45 or 50 
 cents duty, they are liable to let it stay in the custom house, so if we 
 are going to send it at all, we had better pay it, and we look at that • 
 
PARCEL POST. 899 
 
 45 or 50 cents ourselves and say that we do not care to do it unless we 
 know something about the consignee. I am sorry that was not taken 
 up very carefully when reciprocity was discussed. 
 
 Senator Bryan. It would not have done any good. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Not any good, no; I was sorry when the matter was 
 under discussion that it was not taken up. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the average weight of your parcels under 
 your foreign shipments; have you any idea ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I do not know, but I should say that it was several 
 times as much as the domestic weight. 
 
 The Chairman. The estimates that we have are about 3& pounds. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I should say that would be about our average rate, 
 up near the top. 
 
 Senator Briggs. What is your idea as to the effect this will have 
 on the local retail dealer; that is, a parcel post increasing the weight 
 to 11 pounds and putting it at 4 cents a pound instead of 16 ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Now, that qualification of 4 cents a pound, I have 
 not heard of at all. That is an entirely new line of thought. You 
 mean for rural route shipments only, or a general parcel post ? 
 
 Senator Briggs. A general parcel post. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What Senator Briggs had in mind, as I under- 
 stand, was a zone system, with a rate of 4 cents a pound for the 
 shorter zones, and then a gradually ascending scale until you reach 
 the long distances. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I do not know anything about the effect on the local 
 dealer or on the catalogue houses. It is all a dream project yet, so 
 far as I can see. It looks rather involved and complicated to me, 
 and especially to the layman who wants to mail a package. He 
 would have to go to the post office himself, where they weigh the 
 package and the clerk will tell him what the postage is on that, which 
 will be a lot of trouble. 
 
 Senator Briggs. You know the opposition comes to the increasing 
 of the parcel-post activities from the jobbers and the retailers on 
 account, as they claim, of putting the business in the hands of 
 yourselves and one or two others. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I think that is very largely a theory that has no 
 foundation in fact, and I also feel that anything I might say on that 
 subject would be more or less misconstrued. I would therefore 
 prefer to say as little as possible, because it would only be my personal 
 opinion after all. 
 
 Senator Briggs. That is exactly what we want. We are getting 
 the personal opinions of a great many people. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Well, I have given my opinion before to this com- 
 mittee to the effect that in my judgment it would not divert much. 
 business from the present channels; that is, freight and express, 
 because the Government can not afford to carry under a general 
 parcel-post enactment merchandise at as low an average rate as is 
 now possible through the medium of freight or express shipments. 
 It would only be possible for consideration if the Government should 
 undertake to create a monopoly of all packages under 11 pounds, 
 and that would be so revolutionary in character that I, for one, could 
 have no intelligent opinion on that subject at the present time. 
 
 Senator Bristow. A parcel post would be an advantage to you ? 
 
900 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. As I view that, it would only mean that some move- 
 in ent would change from express to mail. 
 
 Senator Briggs. You stated a few minutes ago how the volume 
 of your business was divided between the freight, mail, and express, 
 and the mail, I think you said, was less than 10 per cent. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Eight per cent. 
 
 Senator Briggs. And the express was how much ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Ten. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Then as you figure it out, only the 18 per cent 
 would be affected ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Of course, 8 per cent already goes by mail, and 
 really only 10 per cent would be affected? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And in your opinion it would not materially 
 increase the volume of your business ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. It might increase it somewhere to the long-haul 
 points. I have a list here of several points in Montana, Washington, 
 Oregon, and California that are all off of the railroad, and very fre- 
 quently we make daily direct sacks of fourth-class matter to the 
 nearest distributing railroad point, and frequently as many as 10 or 
 20 packages to one consignee, divided up into packages of 4 pounds 
 each. The mileage is given here in this table, and it might be of 
 some interest to your committee for study, because I do not think the 
 information has ever been compiled, and it shows here six or eight 
 pages of towns that are from 30 to 187 miles off of a railroad. 
 
 The Chairman. They are all on rural routes, are they? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I think not. I think they are most all star routes; 
 special treatment is shown throughout here, and the express rate to 
 the newest point is given in every caee, which is something you have 
 not had before. 
 
 The Chairman. We would like very much to have that. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. As I look down this list, for instance, in the State of 
 Oregon I find the express rate runs from S9.75 to $14 a hundred, so 
 that beats the mail in many cases. 
 
 The Chairman. You will give us this paper? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes. 
 
 The following are a few of the offices to which we make daily direct 
 sacks of fourth-class matter; some of the shipments consist of as 
 many as 20 packages divided as nearly as possible in packages of 4 
 pounds each. Also find the number of miles these post offices are 
 from the nearest express point and the express rates to these points 
 from Chicago. 
 
 Express rates per 100 pounds. 
 
 [See graduated rate for less than 100 pounds.] 
 
 MONTANA. 
 
 Arp, 89 miles from Bowman, N. Dak $5. 00 
 
 Ashland, 65J miles from Forsyth 6. 25 
 
 Graham, 85 miles from Gillette, Wyo 6. 75 
 
 Jackson, 664 miles from Dillon 8. 00 
 
 Jordan, 100 miles from Forsyth 6. 25 
 
 Lame Deer, 70 miles from Forsyth 6. 25 
 
 Moorhead, 42 miles from Arvada, Wyo 7. 00 
 
 Olive, 79 miles from Arvada, Wyo 7. Ofl 
 
PABCELi POST. yUl 
 
 Otter, 50 miles from Sheridan, Wyo $7. 00 
 
 Silway, 93 miles from Miles City . : 6. 00 
 
 Sykes, 104} miles from Bellefourche, S. Dak 5. 25 
 
 Avery, 49} miles from Harlem 6. 75 
 
 Bannack, 30 miles from Dillon 8. 00 
 
 Beebe, 33 miles from Miles City 6. 00 
 
 Belleview, 40J miles from Collins 7. 50 
 
 Belmont, 34 miles from Malta 6. 25 
 
 Boots, 121 miles from Miles City 6. 00 
 
 Boyes, 99 miles from Miles City ; 6. 00 
 
 Capitol, 84} miles from Bellefourche, S. Dak 5. 25 
 
 Cleveland, 42 miles from Chinook 6. 75 
 
 Coalcreek, 83 miles from Poplar 5. 75 
 
 Dagmar, 45 miles fiom Culbertson 5. 75 
 
 Elizabeth, 60 miles from Collins 7. 50 
 
 Ericson, 89} miles from Bellefourche, S. Dak 5. 25 
 
 Farrie, 80 miles from Miles City 6. 00 
 
 Flint, 65 miles from Great Falls ' -r 7. 25 
 
 Fox, 68 mile? from Divide S. 00 
 
 Garland , 36 miles from Miles City 6. 00 
 
 Glenrock, 80 miles from Miles City 6. 00 
 
 Greenville, 71 miles from Culbertsor 5. 75 
 
 Hampton, 90 miles from Miles City - 6. 00 
 
 Hicks, 50 miles from Big Timber - 7. 25 
 
 Holmes, 67£ miles from Chinook ." 6. 75 
 
 Independence, 57 miles from Big Timber 7. 25 
 
 Kismet, 87 miles from Malta, 6. 25 
 
 Leedy, 62£ miles from Malta 6. 25 
 
 Luciie, 40 miles from Chester 8. 50 
 
 Lyon, 70 miles from Alder 8. 00 
 
 Mauland , 70 miles from Lewiston 7. 25 
 
 McMillan, 55 miles from Miles City 6. 00 
 
 Muddy, 81J miles from Forsyth 6. 25 
 
 Raymond, 59} miles from Collins 7. 50 
 
 Ross, 67 miles from Melstone 6. 50 
 
 Roy, 45 miles from Lewiston 7. 25 
 
 Sanford, 80 miles from Forsyth 6. 25 
 
 Stacey, 68 miles from Miles' City 6. 00 
 
 Sula, 40 miles from Hamilton 8. 50 
 
 Taylor, 40 miles from Chester 8. 50 
 
 Three Butte. 51 miles from Mondak 5. 50 
 
 Wilder, 79^ miles from Malta 6. 25 
 
 WASHINGTON. 
 
 Bickelton, 27J miles from Republic 11. 50 
 
 Bly, 44 miles from Lewiston, Idaho 10. 00 
 
 Bogachiel, 41 miles from Clallam Bay 12. 50 
 
 Bodie, 29J miles from Republic 11. 50 
 
 Clearwater, 30 miles from Moclips 11. 50 
 
 Fort Simcoe, 29 miles from Yakima '. . . 10. 00 
 
 Glenwood, 35 miles from White Salmon 11. 50 
 
 Conconully, 44} miles from Brewster 11. 50 
 
 Olema, 26 miles from Brewster 1 1. 50 
 
 Omak, 31 miles from Brewster 11. 50 
 
 Twisp, 35 miles from Pateros 11 . 50 
 
 Winthrop, 44 miles from Pateros 1 1. 50 
 
 Ameas, 32 miles from Republic 1 1. 50 
 
 Alameda, 50 miles from Almira -. • 10. 00 
 
 Angline, 35J miles from Republic 11. 50 
 
 Barry, 26-J miles from Almira 10: 00 
 
 Beck, 26 miles from Brewster 11. 50 
 
 Bissell, 27£ miles from Addy 10. 25 
 
 Cedonia, 43 miles from Springdale 10. 25 
 
 Coldcreek, 35} miles from North Yakima 10. 00 
 
 Craige, 26} miles from Lewiston, Idaho 10. 00 
 
 Ourby, 26J miles from Springdale , 10.25 
 
902 PAEP.EL. POST. 
 
 Delrio, 33 miles from Mansfield $10. 75 
 
 Elk Park, 50 mile3 from Moclips 11. 50 
 
 Eply, 34 miles from Brewster 11. 50 
 
 Fruitland, 40 miles from Springdale 10. 25 
 
 Gerome, 40 miles from Springdale 10. 25 
 
 Hanson Ferry, 44 miles from Lewiston 10. 00 
 
 Hudson, 33 miles from Brewster 11. 50 
 
 Lange, 46 miles from Castlerock 11. 50 
 
 Lott, 30 miles from Davenport - 10. 00 
 
 Mission, 34 miles from Brewster ■ 11. 50 
 
 Mora, 48 miles from Clallam Bay 12. 50 
 
 Rex, 29| rniles from Almira 10. 00 
 
 Sanderson, 26} miles from Coulee City 10. 00 
 
 Wilson, 25f miles from Winlock 11. 50 
 
 CALIFORNIA. 
 
 Chester, 32 miles from Bayles 
 
 Dedrick, 72 miles from Redding 12. 50 
 
 Dixie, 63 miles from Bartle 14. 00 
 
 Freeman, 47 miles from Mojave 11. 50 
 
 Gibsonville, 34 miles from Keddie 11. 50+1. 00 
 
 Gilta, 86 miles from Yreka 13. 50 
 
 Glenville, 46 miles from Bakersfield 11. 50 
 
 Gorman, 48 J miles from Lancaster 11. 50 
 
 Hardy, 25 miles from Fort Bragg 17. 25 
 
 Hat Creek, 69 miles from Bartle 14. 00 
 
 Hayfork, 77 miles from Redding 12. 50 
 
 Helena, 66 miles from Redding 12. 50 
 
 Henderson, 68 miles from Redding 12. 50 
 
 Knob, 53 miles from Redding 12. 50 
 
 Laky City, 34 miles from Alturas 11. 50 
 
 Last Chance, 33 miles from Colfax 11. 50 
 
 Lebee, 52 miles from Lancaster 11. 50 
 
 Adin, 49 miles from Alturas 15. 00 
 
 Alleghany, 41 miles from Nevada City 12. 25 
 
 Almond, 22 miles from Foster 11. 75 
 
 Alpine, 14 miles from Lakeside 11. 75 
 
 Amago, 31} miles from Esrondido 11. 50 
 
 Andersonia, 57} miles from Fort Bragg (stage) , 17. 25 
 
 Annapolis, 36 miles from Cazadero 12. 50 
 
 Beegum, 61 \ miles from Redding 12. 50 
 
 Big Bar, 87£ miles from Redding 12. 50 
 
 Blythe, 69 miles from Glamis 11. 50 
 
 Branscomb, 26 miles from Sherwood 13. 75 
 
 Burney , 67 miles from Redding 12. 50 
 
 Campo, 40 miles from Lemon Grove 11. 75 
 
 Carbon, 42£ miles from Bartle 14. 00 
 
 Cassell, 56 miles from Bartle 14. 00 
 
 Lewiston, 37 miles from Redding 12. 50 
 
 Manton, 41 miles from Red Bluff 12. 25 
 
 Millwood, 43 miles from Sanger 11. 50 
 
 Moddy, 55 miles from Fort Bragg 17. 25 
 
 OREGON. 
 
 Alberson, 187 miles from Winnemucca, Nev 11. 50 
 
 Barnes, 117 miles from Shaniko 11. 00 
 
 Bly, 66J miles from Klamath Falls 14.25 
 
 Burns, 102 miles from Vale 9. 75 
 
 Buell, 12 miles from Dallas 12. 00 
 
 Dayville, 65 miles from Austin 10.25 
 
 Deerhorn, 20 miles from Springfield '. 12.25 
 
 Fort Klamath, 39| miles from Klamath Falls 14. 25 
 
 Ironside, 46f miles from Baker City 10. 00 
 
 Mitchell, 57 miles from Shaniko 11. 00 
 
 Mount Vernon, 40 miles from Austin 10. 25 
 
 Post, 88£ miles from Shaniko 11. 00 
 
i'aecel post. yua 
 
 Sandlake, 31£ miles from Tillamook $13. 00 
 
 Sisters, 102 miles from Shaniko 11. 00 
 
 Suplee, 89 miles from Austin 10. 25 
 
 Waverly, 145£ miles from Austin 10. 25 
 
 Kennedy, 153 miles from Austin 10. 25 
 
 Izee, 68 miles from Austin 10. 25 
 
 Wilson, 31 miles from Porestgrove 11. 75 
 
 Wonder, 13 miles from Grants Pass 13. 00 
 
 Zumwalt, 30 miles from Enterprise 10. 00 
 
 Van, 108J miles from Vale 9. 75 
 
 Taft, 3i miles from Kernville 12. 50 
 
 Paisley, 101 miles from Alturas, Cal 15. 00 
 
 Skull Springs, 58J miles from Vale 9. 75 
 
 Wamic, 22J miles from Dufur 10. 75 
 
 Voltage, 144 miles from Austin 10. 25 
 
 Warner Lake, 78 miles from Alturas, Cal 15. 00 
 
 Waterman, 61 miles from Condon 11. 00 
 
 Tumalo, 102 miles from Shaniko 11. 00 
 
 Troy, 50£ miles from Wallowa 10. 00 
 
 Venator, 163$ miles from Austin 10. 25 
 
 Paulina, 118A miles from Shaniko 11. 00 
 
 Joy, 73 miles" from Elgin 10. 00 
 
 Kilbride, 42 miles from Austin 10. 25 
 
 Laidlaw, 102 miles from Shaniko 11. 00 
 
 Howard, 90 miles from Shaniko 11. 00 
 
 Caviness, 59 miles from Baker City 10. 00 
 
 Bartlett, 57 miles from Wallowa 10. 00 
 
 Narrows, 163 miles from Vale 9. 75 
 
 Harney, 117 miles from Vale 9. 75 
 
 Harriman, 137 miles from Vale 9. 75 
 
 Senator Bristow. These people live on ranches at a distance from 
 towns, do they not? 
 
 Mr. Thoenb. Yes; live on ranches, they are sheep herders, mining 
 prospectors, and the Lord knows what they do, and are as far away 
 from civilization as they can be. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They are building up the natural resources of 
 the country. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. They are building up the country. Thirty years 
 ago we had lists like that in Nebraska, both of the Dakotas, and we 
 haven't them there to-day. 
 
 The Chairman. Referring to a question Senator Briggs asked you, 
 which I think is very pertinent, the assumption that the increase in 
 business under any increased activity of a parcel post or fourth- 
 class mail matter, could only be an additional 10 per cent; that would 
 be predicated on the absorption of the express companies by the 
 Government, either through condemnation proceedings or such 
 competition as would eliminate them, would it not? It is not your 
 opinion that increasing the present activity would eliminate the 
 express companies without condemnation proceedings, or an adop- 
 tion of such rates as would prohibit the express companies from 
 doing business at a profit, so that the increase of fourth-class matter 
 would not be represented by 10 per cent additional to the 8 per cent 
 of your business that is now done under fourth-class mail ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. It would simply be a case of transporting it— — 
 
 Senator Briggs. I do not think you got my ideas, Senator. My 
 idea was that that 10 per cent was the only business that was assail- 
 able, if yotf term it that. As to your freight business, you ship that 
 way because of the bulk of the packages ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes. 
 
904 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Briggs. A parcel post would only come in competition 
 with the 10 per cent of the business, and not all of that? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. With a part of the 10 per cent; that is right. The 
 smaller packages out of that 10 per cent. 
 
 .Senator Bristow. You send packages to the points referred to 
 there by mail, and you do not send them by express to those distant 
 points in Oregon and Montana ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Those points are not reached in any other way 
 except by mail. 
 
 The Chairman. A number of witnesses have appeared before the 
 committee, Mr. Thorne, who were evidently of the opinion, and some 
 have distinctly stated that an enlargement of the present parcel- 
 post activity, as represented under the fourth-class mail provision, 
 was solely in the interests of the mail-order house — I assume they 
 include the catalogue house — and, some stated, in the interests of 
 the railroads. The inference was conveyed, to my mind, at least, 
 that there was an assumption or an impression in the minds of some 
 witnesses, that the mail-order houses by activity and contribution 
 financiallj -, in the dissemination of literature or utilization of the 
 press, were trying to manufacture sentiment throughout the country 
 favorable to the extension of the parcel-post system. I would like 
 to ask if to your knowledge any member of your organization has 
 made any financial contribution in any way for the purpose of creating 
 public opinion favorable to increasing the activity of our present 
 parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. We have contributed, from time to time, small sums 
 of money, never to exceed SI 00 at a time, for the purpose of helping 
 to keep alive an organization known as the Postal Progress League, 
 and at various times during its career, to the best of my recollection, 
 it has advocated any kind of a postal reform. At one time they 
 were talking about attempting to foster a movement to reduce the 
 first-class rate from 2 cents to 1 cent, and at another time they were 
 advocating a reduction of the rate on fourth-class matter, or a com- 
 bination of both third and fourth class matter at the same rate, and, 
 if I am not mistaken, as another part of their movement, they were 
 anxious, in order that the Post Office Department be as nearly self- 
 supporting as possible, to increase the rate on second-class matter, 
 so that some of these other reductions may be brought about, and 
 that the whole thing be on a more equitable basis, so far as the 
 masses were concerned. I am not mentioning in this that any of 
 these views are my views, but just what the object of this league 
 was, as I remember it, and they used to come around once a year 
 to as many of the stores as they could find would give them money 
 to help them pay postage bills, office rent, etc. Outside of that, 
 we have never contributed in any way, shape, or manner to any 
 postal movement connected with it, nor have we advocated it either 
 privately or publicly. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know definitely what the maximum would 
 be, of your contributions to the postal league, all told, naming a 
 figure that you are sure would be within the limit? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I am well satisfied that it is less than a thousand dol- 
 lars. * 
 
 The Chairman. The total contribution ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes; it might be only $500. 
 
i'AKUJS.b .fUSX. »uu 
 
 The Chairman. Direct!}" or indirectly, so far as any cash contri- 
 bution is concerned to any association or individual agitating or advo- 
 cating an enlargement or the parcel-post system, a thousand dollars 
 would cover all contributions ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. All of our contributions and expenses therewith 
 connected. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I understood from a statement which Senator 
 Bourne made before I came in, that you said something in regard 
 to the advantages that a rural parcel post would be to you in the 
 distribution of your merchandise. I may be asking you to repeat 
 something, but would you consider the establishment of a rural par- 
 cel post as of any special advantage to you ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. That question has not been asked, nor, as far as I 
 can remember, touched upon before. I would say that we would 
 not consider it of any advantage to us. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Your customers in the country frequently mass 
 their orders, do they not, so that you ship a package to one of them 
 for general distribution ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. They do so, but infrequently. As I have already 
 stated, in my judgment, the total would be somewhere between 5 and 
 10 per cent of the total number of freight shipments, and only that 
 many, there being no incentive for people to do so, except the saving 
 they can make by getting the lowest freight rate. We pay no com- 
 missions nor give any rebates or discounts. 
 
 The Chairman. Isn't that a big incentive, if the rate is the same 
 for one pound as a hundred pounds, or in some instances the same 
 for 1 pound as for 250 pounds, would not that be a big incentive to 
 mass orders ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. No; for the reason that there are very few families who 
 can not, with advantage to themselves and with economy to them- 
 selves, buy from time to time an aggregation of merchandise that will 
 weigh in the neighborhood of 100 pounds, and one by one these 
 individuals or families find that out, and then they do not bother 
 with their neighbors, because that is a lot of trouble. 
 
 The Chairman. Well; it is the cheap rate they are after. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. One hundred pounds produces the lowest possible rate, 
 and makes them buy more m many instances than they otherwise 
 would if they enjoyed the same rate per pound as they do per hundred 
 pounds. I mean, it is the ability to take advantage of the hundred- 
 pound rate that makes them assemble those orders up to 100 pounds 
 weight, in order to enjoy the cheapest rate obtainable. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Then in the 82 per cent of your business, that 
 part of it which is done by freight, is it not true that nearly all 
 those orders amount to 100 pounds in weight or more * 
 
 Mr. Thorne. The average is 125 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you have any number of 25 or 50 pound 
 orders % 
 
 Mr. Thorne. There would be a few; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. They are exceptional, though, are they not ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes; quite a number are from 50 to SO pounds, 
 because then the rate approximates the 100-pound rate so nearly. 
 
 Senator Briggs. They pay the hundred-pound rate % 
 
 21845— vol 4—12 3 
 
906 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes. In other words, they pay what is known as the 
 minimum charge, which is about the same rate as the rate on 100 
 pounds. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They get the same rate then that the merchant 
 does. Under the present freight system a customer of yours who 
 orders a hundred pounds gets the same rate as the country merchant 
 would get on the great bulk of his orders ? 
 
 Mr. thorne. The freight rates are the same to all. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And the country merchant does not order any 
 carload lots, of course ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Not in mixed merchandise. 
 
 Senator Briggs. That would not do him much good, anyway. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. No; he has to order a carload of goods or one class 
 of merchandise, one. 
 
 The Chairman. Your catalogue quotes f . o. b. Chicago prices ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. You require that your customer shall send cash, 
 or its equivalent — a money order or check — and prepay the freight, 
 or does the recipient — the customer — pay the freight upon the 
 receipt of the goods ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. The customer pays the freight. 
 
 The Chairman. On receipt of the goods? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes. We prepay upon request only. 
 
 The Chairman. And then that is included in the estimate of the 
 payment % 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Any business that you send by mail, that is 
 always prepaid by you ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes; and charged to the customer. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you prepay the express, or not, as the 
 customer directs ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. As the customer elects. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It has been said here that the countr} 7 merchant 
 could do business at an expense of about 12 per cent, and I believe 
 that the mail-order houses vary from 22£ to 27 per cent, and the 
 department store from 20 to 25 per cent. Have you any information 
 with regard to that ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I have, based upon 25 years' observation, to the 
 effect that I do not believe one merchant, so-called country store,, 
 in five thousand, will do business on 12 per cent, nor 15, and I also 
 believe that not one in five hundred knows what percentage it costs' 
 him to do business, and they are not in position to know. They, 
 make a living out of it, and do not pay themselves a salary, and 
 frequently their books are kept by the strictly loose-leaf ledger systern*, 
 and I do not think that anyone is now in a position to authoritatively 
 state what it costs the country storekeeper to do business, when you 
 average it un; T do not think there is a close figure. 
 
 Senator Briggs. What about the jobber? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. That comes down to a closer business. They know 
 and they have to know. They figure the fractions of a per cent. It 
 costs the jobber, I should say, 10 or 12 per cent to do business! 
 depending entirely upon the class of business in which they are 
 engaged. 
 
PABCEL POST. 907 
 
 Senator Briggs. They are always talking 20 per cent when it is 
 necessary for them to be protected. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. There are a great many kinds of jobbers in different 
 kinds of business and each kind of business carries a varying per- 
 centage. 
 
 The Chairman. What comment would you make upon their 
 estimate of the catalogue houses, 22£ to 27 per cent? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I should say that they did not know. 
 
 Senator Bryan. What is your estimate of the cost of doing busi- 
 ness by the catalogue houses ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. From 16 to 25 per cent. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, why such a difference in the cost ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. For the reason that there are many elements which 
 tend to make the cost vary in the conduct of any business, such 
 as the business management, methods of organization, manufactur- 
 ing arrangement, elimination of waste in handling and shipping 
 merchandise, careful study of publicity and promotion costs, economy 
 methods of issuing printed matter, saving of all possible discounts, 
 and other reasons that do not at this moment occur to me. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I understood you to say that the only advantage 
 which the increased facility of the parcel post would be to you 
 would be in shipping to distant points off the railroad where there 
 were no towns, where there are no express or freight facilities ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I believe that an increase in the package limit — in 
 other words, the weight limit — and a reduction in the rate would 
 result in an increase of business from the people who live in the 
 sparsely settled and remote communities off of and. out of the line 
 of communication, not reached by railroads or express companies. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Have you a large number of valuable customers 
 living in these remote regions ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. But they are included within the 8 per cent volume 
 of business designated as being done through the mail facilities ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. From that I would infer you do not do a great 
 deal of business through the mails in the thickly settled portions of 
 the country where there are freight and express facilities ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. A small portion only. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is the fact that your customers get the same 
 freight rate when they order by freight that the local merchant gets an 
 important advantage to you in the development of your business ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I can not say as to that, because I have never known 
 the time when all classes of rates, whether mail, express, or freight, 
 were not the same to all individuals, whether they were in trade or 
 not, except a difference based upon quantities, such as car lots of 
 single classes of merchandise. I have never known of any other con- 
 dition or time and have therefore had no experience otherwise. 
 
 The Chairman. Are many of your shipments made in carload lots ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Very few, indeed. 
 ' Senator Bristow. You sell for the same price, whether a man 
 orders a carload or a single package ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. The same price to all, regardless of quantity or any 
 other conditions, with occasional exceptions when closing out a line. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What do you mean 'by "closing out a line?" 
 
908 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Supposing we have a line of goods we are going to 
 close out, and some one -comes in and takes the lot for so much. The 
 clerk consults the department manager and the department manager 
 says all right, and they make a trade. 
 
 Senator Briggs. You buy that way sometimes, too, do you not ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. Yes; that is a part of the business that obtains to 
 trading in every line. 
 
 The Chairman. Let me ask you whether you think your propor- 
 tions of your business transacted by freight, express, and mail, cal- 
 culated on the value basis, will apply generally to the catalogue houses, 
 or only particularly apply to your own business ? 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I think they apply to the same classes of houses as 
 ours. 
 
 The CHArRMAN. Are there any further points you think would have 
 a bearing on the question that have not been touched upon in the 
 hearing? If so, we will be very appreciative if you will mention them. 
 
 Mr. Thorne. I can think of nothing more at this moment, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, we are greatly obliged to you for coming 
 before us. 
 
 Thereupon, at 4.45 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until 
 Thursday, January 4, 1912, at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 
THURSDAY, JANUARY 4, 1912. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 
 Present, Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), Senator Joseph 
 L. Bristow, Senator Nathan P. Bryan, and Senator James E. Martine. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. J. H. HALE, ONE OF THE EXECUTIVE 
 MEMBERS OF THE CONNECTICUT STATE GRANGE. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Hale, it will be necessary that you be sworn. 
 
 Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age, residence, and 
 present occupation ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. I am 58 years of age; South Glastonbury, Hartford 
 County, Conn. I operate farms there and at Fort Valley, Ga. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you a member of any associations, Mr. Hale; 
 any agricultural associations? 
 
 Mr. Hale. I am here as chairman of the executive committee of 
 the Connecticut State Grange, and am authorized to urge the passage 
 of a suitable parcel-post bill. Our association has 13,000 members 
 in my own State. I am also a member of the legislative committee 
 of our Pomological Society, which for the size of our State is one of the 
 largest fruit growers' associations in the United States ; we have some 
 700 members in the State of Connecticut. We are trying to develop 
 the back-hill lands of the State. I also represent the local business 
 men's association of my home town, of about 5,000 population. Also 
 the Georgia Fruit Exchange, which organization controls something 
 over 80 per cent of the peach shipments of Georgia, which is the larg- 
 est peach-growing State in the Union. 
 
 The Chairman. You are here representing them as well as the 
 other organizations you have described ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Yes, sir. Also myself as a farmer. 
 
 The Chairman. The views you express to the committee will be 
 the views of the associations you have described ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. The associations have discussed them, and been inter- 
 ested in them for a good many years past, particularly the Grange 
 and the Pomological Society. 
 
 The Chairman. Your associations and you yourself are in favor of 
 increasing the activity of the present parcel post as now enjoyed 
 under the fourth-class mail matter? 
 
 Mr. Hale. We are thoroughly in favor of it. We feel we are 
 greatly hampered. The people I represent are largely living in the 
 outlying country districts, and do not have suitable express facilities; 
 and, even though the rates were satisfactory, the service is inadequate 
 and almost inaccessible to them. Many of the people I represent rive 
 from 3 to 8 miles from the express offices. Of course, in the far West 
 and far South that does not seem a long distance, but to us in New 
 England 3 to 8 miles from an express office is quite a distance; it is 
 
 909 
 
910 PARCEL POST. 
 
 an inconvenience to hitch up a horse to drive that distance; we feel 
 that it is a very serious handicap to successful farm operations and 
 to the bringing in of the outside people to our community — this "back 
 to the land idea" is a "bug" that has gotten pretty deep into the 
 minds of the professional and business men, and there is a great drift 
 back to the farm in New England at the present time, and the people 
 coming there want to get in the hills, because of the better climatic 
 conditions for living. It may be perhaps carrying it a little too far, 
 but there is a great movement in the cultivation of fruit and the con- 
 sequent movement of the people tends back to the hills, and these 
 hills are far away from the railways and the express lines. 
 
 The Chairman. Are they on rural delivery lines ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Practically all of them are on rural delivery lines. My 
 own township of 5,000 population, you might say, is almost a suburb 
 of Hartford; the business center of the town is only 8 miles from 
 the city of Hartford, and there is no railroad through the town. 
 There are three or four post offices and three rural routes. The aver- 
 age citizen of that township, within sight of the capitol at Hartford, 
 has to drive 5 miles to an express office to get packages, and yet, 
 right by his door every day goes a rural delivery wagon. I had a 
 little instance only last week, or possibly the week before, which I 
 will use as an illustration. I have a farm on the other side of the 
 State, beyond New Haven, possibly 40 miles from my own home. 
 We interchange farm machinery and farm pieces in part, because 
 we use the same implements, and there was a little implement I 
 Wanted the other day, so I called up the superintendent on the tele- 
 phone and told him to send it by mail. He could not do so because 
 it weighed 5 pounds, so he had to hitch up a horse, drive 3 miles to 
 the express office, pay 25 cents to bring it to an express office 2\ 
 miles from my own home, with the Connecticut River rolling 
 between. I had to hitch up a horse and drive 2\ miles in each direc- 
 tion, pay 30 cents for ferriage across the river, and it cost me in all 
 more than a dollar to get that small part, to say nothing of the great 
 inconvenience both to my superintendent and myself. The same 
 thing holds true with the majority of the citizens of that town or 
 the adjoining towns farther back in the country, that there is a rural 
 delivery by their homes every day, carrying 10, 15, or 25 pounds of 
 mail matter, perhaps, and the balance of the wagon empty. 
 
 The Chairman. What amount, in your judgment, based on the 
 experience you have had, could these rural carriers carry with perfect 
 ease, in weight ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Under the present conditions of the highways and the 
 pay that they get, the horses that they are able to keep and the 
 wagons, in this particular community which I speak of- — it is a rolling, 
 hilly country— I would not think that they could carry to exceed 
 four or five hundred pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. But they are now carrying on an average of less 
 than 25 pounds ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. They are carrying on an average of 25 pounds, in my 
 judgment, and they are traveling right over the routes every day. I 
 can give another instance which shows the great inconvenience to the 
 people living in the rural districts now some distance from the railway 
 and express lines. One of my farms is 3 miles from home, and a man 
 in my employ telephoned up the other day that he wanted another 
 
PARCEL POST. 911 
 
 ball of binder twine. Each ball weighs 5 pounds. There was a rural 
 delivery going right by the place where they were working, and that 
 ball of twine would have been thrown into the post office and have 
 been carried right to them through the mails. 
 
 The Chairman. All these orders you speak of, would have been 
 made over the telephone to the nearest country store ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. To the nearest trading store; yes. The majority of the 
 citizens of this particular town I speak of trade with the local store; 
 they are connected by telephone and a large majority of that extreme 
 back-country community is well supplied with telephones which con- 
 nects them not only with the local town but with the nearby city of 
 Hartford, and they could buy their products in that way. Then, the 
 goods would be delivered promptly and quickly and if not satisfactory 
 they have their right to talk to them about it over the telephone. 
 The same is true in Georgia. My plantation in Georgia is 3 miles out 
 from the town of Fort Valley where there is a rural delivery service at 
 the door every day extending out in the country some 10 miles. To 
 show how the people appreciate a thing of that kind, when that rural 
 route was established I was the only person in the community that 
 had a New York daily paper. There were four others who had a 
 Macon or Atlanta daily paper; in all there were but five daily papers 
 received in that community. At the end of six months there were 
 65 daily papers carried on that same line; to-day there are something 
 over a hundred daily papers delivered to the same people on that 
 particular line. In my judgment 60 per cent of the trading is done 
 in the local town at Fort Valley and probably 30 per cent more at 
 Macon and the balance, 10 per cent, either at Atlanta or outside 
 points. The people living in that neighborhood largely reach the 
 center of Fort Valley by telephone. Now, to show you what a con- 
 venience a parcel-post system would be, I will give another illustra- 
 tion, and I speak now especially for the small farmer, the one-horse 
 farmer, as he is called. The majority of the small farmers in Con- 
 necticut keep but one pair of horses; one of the pair is kept for outside 
 travel, to go to church on Sunday and the like, and when they have 
 to hitch up one of the horses to go to the express office for a package, 
 the team is broken and therefore is idle, and the one or two hours it 
 takes to go to to get the express package is a tremendous tax on his 
 time. Therefore, we feel gentlemen, that the United States Govern- 
 ment with its splendid machinery of this rural free-delivery service 
 should handle it in such a way as to give us what we need for our 
 proper living and for the proper advancement of our business and the 
 same opportunities you gentlemen, who live in cities and close to ex- 
 press offices, have for having your packages delivered to your homes. 
 
 The Chairman. You believe the enlarged scope of our present 
 parcel post would tend to make the people in the country more con- 
 tented and would result in bringing more people into the country, 
 and as a result of that a greater development of the natural resources, 
 do you not ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. I think they are pretty contented now. I am satisfied 
 our countrymen now are the best off of any in the world in many 
 years, but they need more to keep them happy' — that is, to success- 
 fully conduct their business. 
 
 The Chairman. You believe it would be an additional inducement 
 to the people living in the cities to return to the farms ? 
 
912 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Hale. A tremendous inducement. The rural delivery of mail 
 has been the biggest thing that has happened in my lifetime to the 
 uplift of the rural community; the telephone next; and put the parcel 
 post with it and we are pretty near on easy Street, and there is no 
 wonder that with a parcel post coming the city people are looking 
 at us with envious eyes, and we want them to come. 
 
 The Chairman. A number of witnesses who have appeared before 
 the committee have taken the position that the increase of the parcel- 
 post system would result in centralization in the city arid depopula- 
 tion of the country districts. 
 
 Mr. Hale. Did you get a photograph of that man who made that 
 statement * 
 
 The Chairman. There have been quite a number of them. 
 
 Mr. Hale. I would like to see them. 
 
 The Chairman. We would like to have you criticize that position 
 for the benefit of the committee. 
 
 Mr. Hale. Why, I can not understand the thought of a man or of 
 the business experience of a man who would present any such testi- 
 mony to this committee or to anyone else, because absolutely the 
 reverse must be the case. How could it when it makes it easier 
 for people to travel or for packages to come to them ? 
 
 The Chairman. The viewpoint has been advanced that it will 
 be an increased facility for the mail-order houses, that the rural 
 residents would send all their orders to the mail-order houses and 
 the country merchant's business would be destroyed, and they, 
 absenting themselves from the country would result in the people 
 following and going to the cities. That was the trend of the argu- 
 ment advanced, rather along that line. 
 
 Mr. Hale. Well, of course I have heard that story all my life, 
 but it seems so absurd it is hardly worth considering. Now, just 
 take the business interests in my own community. The town of 
 Glastonbury is practically 8 miles from the center of Hartford, with 
 no steam-railroad facilities, except our going 3 miles to a railroad 
 station, crossing the river, or driving to the city. The electric car 
 line was put in there some 18 or 20 years ago, the first electric line 
 out of the city of Hartford, and in fact the first electric line in the 
 State. It was said the electric line was going to ruin the local 
 merchants, it was a nice thing to have it, but what would the poor 
 merchants do, for it would take away their business. It has resulted, 
 in my own personal case, in my expending practically all of my 
 money on food supplies and small Knickknacks at home, where 
 formerly my wife and I drove in a carriage to the city where we would 
 buy our supplies, leaving our horse at a livery stable. 
 
 Mrs. Hale and I bought what we needed and took the packages 
 with us and put them in the carriage. There, in the city, we bought 
 practically everything we needed, because we came home in the 
 carriage. Now, any time it is convenient for Mrs. Hale, she gets on 
 the trolley and does her shopping and wo do not bother to lug the 
 packages home, because the country merchant wall deliver them, and 
 as a consequence we. buy everything at home. I spend 90 per cent 
 of my home living in my home town since the electric cars have been 
 in operation, and before they came I probably spent 60 per cent of 
 my home living away. I believe the same thing would hold true in 
 many of our local purchases. This talk about sending away to the 
 
PAIICEL POST. 91 3 
 
 mail-order houses a thousand or five hundred miles away, to Kala- 
 mazoo or somewhere else, is nonsense. We Yankees are pretty close- 
 fisted; we want to see the things, and want to trade with our neighbors 
 and if we purchase an article and find that it is not right we can make 
 it right, which we can not do with strangers. If I was a country 
 merchant and saw a parcel post coming, I would help it along, 
 because it would help my business. I believe it will absolutely be an 
 advancement to their business rather than an injury. Of course, it 
 will cause some little readjustment, unquestionably, but it will abso- 
 lutely result in their own benefit in the end. 
 
 The Chairmax. Any increased transportation facility for a com- 
 munity must help every individual of the community? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Absolutely. 
 
 The Chairman. That is your opinion ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. In my own opinion, unquestionably. My neighbors 
 can not be benefited without my being benefited. 
 
 The Chairman. In your community in Connecticut, and Georgia — 
 from your experience — do you find any large volume of business or 
 orders made on the mail order or catalogue houses, or do your neigh- 
 bors patronize your local stores ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Why, the vast majority of our people patronize the 
 local stores; there are a certain number who do patronize the cata- 
 logue houses and buy of them, but they buy in large quantities, or at 
 least in such quantities that it practically all comes by freight or 
 express. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the primary reason for their putting their 
 money out of the locality and patronizing stores a thousand or a hun- 
 dred miles away, rather than patronizing their own stores? Is it 
 their inability to get what they want at their own stores? 
 
 Mr. Hale. No; not at all. In some instances it is inability to 
 get what they want, but the attractive catalogue, or the nice story 
 the catalogue men are able to tell, and the fact that the country 
 merchants are usually asleep. As a matter of fact, often the coun- 
 try merchants have the same goods to sell at the same price, but 
 they forget to tell the people about them. It is better advertising 
 on the part of the larger trade more than anything else, because one 
 person can buy goods about as cheap as another, when the goods are 
 manufactured. 
 
 The Chairman. In the various organizations you represent has 
 there been .any discussion relative to whether the Government should 
 monopolize the business relative to the carriage of packages within- 
 whatever weight limit may be decided upon by congressional action ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. No; I do not think there has been any discussion along 
 that particular line. It has simply been that the post office is giving 
 us a carrier service in a very limited way and are discriminating in 
 favor of the express companies, and that if the Government is going 
 to give us a partial service it might and should give us a full and 
 complete service at a cost that willpay for that service. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the consensus of opinion, so far as your 
 organizations are concerned, as you understand that opinion, is that 
 this particular service or increased activity should be self-supporting ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Yes, sir. There is also a question that I would like to 
 bring in in relation to this bill which is now before you. 
 
 The Chairman. Which particular bill ? 
 
914 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Hale. What do you call it? The O 'Gorman, the Sulzer bill? 
 
 The Chairman. That is in the House. 
 
 Mr. Hale. Well, a similar bill you have before you; it is an 8-cent- 
 a-pound rate, isn't it? The question has been discussed among my 
 friends and constituents who know about that bill, and the question 
 has arisen that possibly that rate is a little too high to be profitable 
 and were it a little lower there would be a very much greater volume 
 of business, and while I am here to advocate that bill as it seems to 
 be the best tiling in sight, possibly the 8-cent-a-pound rate may be a 
 little too high to develop a large volume of business, large enough to 
 make it profitable. In other words, you can get so much more busi- 
 ness at a lower rate. We would like to have this profitable, perhaps 
 not at the very start, but none of our constituents are beggars, but 
 want as good a service as we can get that will pay for itself. Now, in 
 my own mind — I do not want to say I will advocate it — but as a 
 business man I think a little lower rate will be more profitable to the 
 Government. 
 
 The Chairman. Lower than 8 cents a pound ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. I will say that the committee has not met as yet 
 for the discussion or consideration of any particular bill. The sub- 
 committee has been holding meetings and working during the summer 
 and fall for the purpose of getting all possible information, ascertain- 
 ment of opinion, and then demonstration made by foreign countries, 
 and ideas, which, when secured, we intend to make a study of and 
 go to work on the consideration of a bill, based upon such ascertain- 
 ment, that we believe would be desirable and practicable. 
 
 Mr. Hale. Speaking for the New England farmer we are situated 
 in a thickly settled community, where within 12 hours' ride by train 
 we can reach thirty or forty million people who are liberal buyers 
 of our farm products. The perishable food products from the farm 
 they buy in the city markets, as they have been handled two or three 
 times, are consequently in a more or less wilted condition; there is a 
 feeling among our people that a pi'oper parcel post at a reasonable rate 
 would enable them to give the people in these cities and villages a fresh 
 food supply from the farm, daily; in small hampers, at a price, "including 
 cost of delivery , that would be satisfactory to the consumer, giving him 
 a much higher grade product and a fresher product than he is now buy- 
 ing, and giving the small farmer, the one-horse farmer, or the woman 
 farmer, an opportunity to sell these perishable products, take fruit and 
 perhaps some poultry products, in a small way. My business is fruit 
 growing, peaches mainly, but largely apples, and' I have found a 
 very great demand among people in New York, Boston, and various 
 other cities for apples fresh from the farm. They don't buy a barrel 
 for they haven't the facilities lor keeping them in the modern way 
 of living in a flat, where there is hardly room for keeping any fresh 
 products any length of time. These people are constantly "asking 
 for smaller packages, and the smallest package we can use successfully 
 with the express companies is a bushel box, and these people ask 
 if we haven't a half bushel or a quarter bushel that we could send 
 them. They would rather pay a little excess charge on a small 
 package than to take the whole bushel at once, for they probably 
 could not keep it. Our 10-pound packages of various "food prod- 
 ucts in thickly settled communities, like the northeastern corner 
 
PARCEL POST. 915 
 
 of the United States, would give a tremendous business to the parcel 
 post, and a revenue also. I would not advocate one at a rate below 
 a revenue-producing basis. 
 
 Senator Martine. What would hali a bushel of apples weigh ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. About 25 pounds. But a 10-pound hamper could be 
 made, a light package for shipping that could be handled in the mails 
 or in a parcel post, and would be very satisfactory to ship to the city 
 home, and enable the people in the cities to live better, perhaps at no 
 reduced price, but enable the farmer to have a much better profit. 
 Then the people who are looking for the country home, the city people 
 who are longmg to-day as never before, can find an incentive to come 
 back to the rural districts. I have been astonished during the past 
 two or three years at various public meetings in Boston and New 
 York to learn how many professional and high-class business men, 
 hundreds of them, are going back to the country for the sake of their 
 families, but they want to be in touch with the town. There is certain 
 trading they want to do with the town, but all these people want to 
 get back into the hills, to be 3 or 5 miles back from the express offices, 
 but to be without a means of getting their packages they want almost 
 every day is a great drawback. When you say to them you have 
 the electric fight back tfiere, there is the telephone, the rural delivery 
 right at your door, and a package express right at your door, it means 
 much for those people who are used to being waited on pretty closely. 
 
 The Chairman. You believe one result would be an increase of the 
 value of land in the countiy ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Unquestionably. 
 
 The Chairman. And increased productiveness from the farm ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Oh, yes. Also an increase in the way of furnishing food 
 supplies for our increasing population, for it will make it possible to 
 handle this back country land. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, is the sentiment favorable to the increasing of 
 the activity of our parcel post, based upon the opinion that it will fur- 
 nish a better method of transportation and increase the market for the 
 products of the farm, or is it because they look upon an increased facil- 
 ity of securing what they want to buy from the towns and country 
 merchants and cities ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. I might say almost the entire first thought has been the 
 opportunity of buying our supplies ; that is the main thought in the 
 minds of the people, but under newer conditions this other thought 
 has arisen. The people have been waiting for it in order to get their 
 supplies, the various things we buy from the local merchant, that has 
 been the strong point; but now, as we see it in sight, and we believe 
 we are going to get it very soon, there is that public sentiment that a 
 parcel post is almost sure— if it isn't right here now. That if it brings 
 us everything, why can't it also carry our products to the man in the 
 town ? But that is really more of an afterthought, for I do not think 
 it was dreamed of in the beginning. 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, you want to load your machinery 
 both ways ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. We would like to have it carry a load both ways, and if 
 you give it to us I think that we will see that it is loaded. 
 
 The Chairman. Assuming that you have an 11 -pound- weight limit 
 established and a decided decrease in the postage over the present rate 
 and you were permitted to carry a certain part of your farm produce 
 
916 PARCEL POST. 
 
 to the towns or villages or to the city, how would you make your con- 
 tract or secure your purchasers ? Don't you now assemble your prod- 
 uce and ship it to a commission man ? What is your present method ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. The majority of my produce in Georgia is all shipped in 
 solid carload lots, either sold f . o. b. at Fort Valley, sold in transit by. 
 our Georgia Fruit Exchange, or shipped to a commission merchant in 
 one of the larger cities. 
 
 The Chairman . You would continue, would you not, the same 
 policy, so far as your particular orchards are concerned ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. No; I would go further than that. Years ago I did a 
 nursery business, a catalogue nursery business, and dealt with people 
 all over the United States, and learned that game as it was played. 
 I would utilize my old nursery catalogue, or a page or two of it, as I 
 did before, when We advertised the Georgia peaches and said they 
 would be delivered out of our cars from Boston, New York, Philadel- 
 phia, Pittsburgh, or Chicago, as the case may be, if the people would 
 place an order with us. We received a small number of orders every 
 year, and if the buyer lived in Wisconsin or Minnesota, the peaches 
 all went into the first car going to Chicago, and out of there by express. 
 That is a small and limited business, however. In Connecticut we 
 have followed the same plan by direct shipments from our orchard 
 to people reached in this same way, and by advertising in a very 
 limited way for direct trade, by broadening out our business by letter 
 solicitation, we have for a number of years past distributed peaches 
 within 300 miles of our northern orchards direct to the family. Since 
 my apple orchard has come into bearing we have pushed that some- 
 what harder because it is a less perishable product. I delivered 
 apples by express last year to 22 States of the Union, by advertising, 
 and I believe that that is business that could be very largely increased 
 in a small way — perhaps not much in the outlying 22 States I speak 
 of, but to the cities of New York, Boston, and all cities and villages in 
 New England, and as far away as Washington. We could send a 
 daily supply fresh. Of course it would have to be more than a barrel 
 or a bushel rate, but it would be as low as the local merchant could 
 sell it, broken up, and give the customer a much better product. 
 
 The Chairman. You ship a carload of peaches from your orchard 
 in Georgia and send them to the people in Boston and New York. 
 
 Mr. Hale. Send them to a commission man there. 
 
 The Chairman. And then they are sold from the car. In other 
 words the car acts as a traveling depot for distribution and routing 
 of that particular fruit through the commission man there? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Oh, no. In going to New York the New York car 
 arrives at Jersey City at night at the docks of the Pennsylvania 
 Railroad and is unloaded there. The commission man buys on the 
 dock and distributes to jobbers, retailers, and others. 
 
 The Chairman. So far as your peach industry is concerned, would 
 you continue your shipments of carload lots as in your present method 
 of doing business ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Absolutely; it would not affect that business at all. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, in your vicinity in Connecticut, how would 
 the one-horse farmer, as I think you designate him — dispose of his 
 or her produce if you had this 11-pound weight limit established and 
 a greatly decreased postage rate enacted? How are they going to 
 
PARCEL POST. y±7 
 
 get their customers in the cities? Wouldn't they have to ship to 
 commission merchants ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. The majority of their products would go along in the 
 same way. 
 
 The Chairman. They would assemble them? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Assemble them, or ship them to the larger markets or 
 sell f. o. b. to the buyer there. The majority of the business will 
 always be done in that way. 
 
 The Chairman . No matter what the postage rate may be ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. No matter what the postage rate may be. 
 
 The Chairman. Unless you had a postage rate in competition 
 with the freight rate ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. That is impossible. So that the majority of the busi- 
 ness will be carried on as it is to-day, but a certain small amount of 
 it would increase, that is in volume comparatively small — yet mean- 
 ing a great deal to appreciative people who want a fine product 
 direct from the farm, the orchard, and the floral establishment. 
 There would be that direct trade which would be wonderfully 
 stimulated. 
 
 The Chairman. So far as farm products are concerned, are there 
 any shipments made to-day to customers through the mails ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Not to any extent. Of course, the nursery establish- 
 ments ship some flowers; nursery stock, flowers, and, of course, seeds, 
 but most of those are done by dealers and not by the farmers. There 
 are small quantities, but that is merely as a try out and not as a busi- 
 ness. We are not looking to that as the big end of the stick, but I 
 am satisfied it will grow and give a return load to the rural carrier. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you heard any discussions in your organiza- 
 tions that you are a member of. relative to whether the Government 
 should condemn or acquire the express companies and go into the 
 express business entirely. 
 
 Mr. Hale. Not as a general discussion by the organization, but 
 there is a general feeling if you make a parcel-post law such as we 
 ought to have that that will regulate itself. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you believe the Government can operate that 
 business as cheaply as a private enterprise can ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Under present conditions more cheaply; that is, into 
 the outlying communities. 
 
 The Chairman. Because of having a greater machinery to oper- 
 ate it ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. We have a machinery already. 
 
 The Chairman. I mean, taking it fundamentally, do you believe 
 that the Government, with the vast amount of laws and. regulations 
 and the machinery and red tape incidental to governmental operation, 
 can do business as cheaply as an individual or a private corporation ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Oh, no; a private corporation can do it more cheaply 
 every time, but they won t do it. They can do it, there is no question 
 about that, but they want the big profit. 
 
 The Chairman. Then it would be your opinion that it would be 
 beneficial to the country served, within the zone of action of the 
 activity, that private competition should exist in conjunction with 
 governmental operation ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. That is a question I would not want to answer you 
 definitely, for I haven't any very concrete ideas on that subject. 
 
918 PARCEL POST. 
 
 There are a lot of those things you can theorize out, but they don't 
 always come out in practice as they do in theory. 
 
 The Chairman, Has there been any discussion in your organiza- 
 tions relative to the establishment of a general parcel post at a 
 universal rate over the country, or the establishment of a zone 
 system ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Those things have been discussed, but the general con- 
 sensus of opinion is that it wants to be a universal rate all over the 
 country without any zone system whatsoever or special rates on rural 
 routes. Our people do not want it until we can have a full and free 
 parcel post uniform all over the United States, and we do not want 
 any change. We want the complete service. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose Congress enacted legislation which would 
 increase the weight from 4 pounds to 1 1 pounds and then establish a 
 minimum rate for rural routes, and then increase the rate for a 
 radius of so many miles from every post office, or a rate for each 
 State and then a still higher rate for adjoining States, or an increased 
 distance in miles, and then a higher general rate for any part of the 
 United States and its possessions. What would be your views 
 relative to that? 
 
 Mr. Hale. I would not consider it would be suitable at all. 
 
 The Chairman. Would not that be in one way a special privilege 
 for each community, and especially for the rural communities or 
 rural routes? Wouldn't they enjoy a transportation facility, so far 
 as the rate went, over people who were not served by the rural route? 
 
 Mr. Hale. They certainly would, but I do not believe they would 
 appreciate it; it would give them special privileges, but I do not think 
 a special privilege that they care for or want or would utilize to any 
 extent. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think that the establishment of a lower 
 rate for the rural routes would tend to utilize the apparent waste now 
 existing on those routes ? In other Words, you stated in your testi- 
 mony here that in your vicinity the three routes that were tributary 
 carried perhaps 25 pounds on an average, whereas they could, under 
 existing conditions, carry just as well 400 or 500 pounds. Do you 
 think that the establishment of a special rate for the rural routes 
 would tend to increase the business and increase the weight, the 
 packages, and number of packages carried ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Very slightly. But thinking of my own community, it 
 would be so slight an advantage as to hardly be appreciable. 
 
 The Chairman. Would the establishment of this zone system, in 
 your opinion, tend to protect the country merchant and to hold his 
 trade, because if the trade went away a higher rate of postage would 
 have to be paid by your neighbors for the purchasing of your articles 
 at a distance ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. I do not think it would affect my local merchants at all, 
 a zone rate like that. I do not think it would give them as much 
 business as the other would in the long run. The freer the people 
 can have things and do things the more they do them, it seems to 
 me, and a restricted zone rate along rural lines is so small a part of 
 what the people want that I beg of you to not think of it. 
 
 The Chairman. You think that the important factor with your 
 neighbors would be what the rate was for the first pound or what the 
 general rate might be for, say 10 pounds or 5 pounds? In other 
 
parcel post. yiy 
 
 words, you have to make an initial rate to cover the cost of your 
 collection and delivery from an economical and practical standpoint. 
 
 Mr. Hale. I think the first and most important thing is increasing 
 the weight; that is the most important factor, and the initial rate 
 on the smaller weights I do not think is as important as the rate on 
 the heavier packages. The possibility of increasing the weight of 
 the package first; then the cost rate of that; that is where I hesitate 
 a little at the 8 cent per pound rate. While that might be a serious 
 handicap to many, 10 or 11 pound packages which would be 80 or 88 
 cents — I am only speaking for myself and not for the organizations, 
 because we have not discussed it — but judging now as a business man 
 if I had to think out for myself the utilization of the postal machinery 
 and wanted to make some money out of it, it would be a serious 
 question in my mind whether a 50 or 69 cent rate for a 10 pound 
 package would not mean more business than the 80 or 88 cent rate. 
 
 The Chairman. Your impression would be that it would? 
 
 Mr. Hale. That is my impression now, and I should figure on that 
 basis. People will go about so far. People won't spend a quarter 
 for anything where they often spend three dimes readily; they won't 
 spend a dollar whereas they will spend three half dollars. I have 
 found that to be true in a business way. That is a peculiarity and 
 that is where the merchants get them on a $4.98 proposition. A lady 
 will not pay $5 for an article, but she will readily spend $4.98 for the 
 same thing. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the personal equation? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Yes; but it enters into the postal business. These peo- 
 
 Ele will have to have automobiles or better wagons, for when we do 
 ave a parcel-post system the business will greatly increase. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you believe the fourth-class mail business 
 would double in your community within a year if we increased the 
 weight limit to 1 1 pounds and decreased the postage rate so that you 
 could carry, say, an 11 -pound package for 50 or 60 cents? 
 
 Mr. Hale. I am inclined to think if you increase the weight and 
 did not even change the present rate of postage that it would double 
 in a year. The opportunity to carry bigger packages would help 
 tremendously. Then when you made a rate that would compensate 
 for that purpose, doubling isn't any measure of what it would be, for 
 I know the rural people of Georgia and New England, and it would 
 go away beyond that. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, taking the rural people of Georgia. What 
 would they ship out ? Your fruit would continue being shipped away 
 as it is now, assembling carloads where possible. I can readily see 
 what they would ship in, but I do not see what they would ship out. 
 
 Mr. Hale. In rural Georgia, for an outside trade within a reason- 
 able distance, it is not as great as it is in New England. Closer to 
 the richer and more thickly settled communities it would be compara- 
 tively limited ; but I trust them to do something, for they are growing 
 fast, they are thinking fast, and they are thinking along active and 
 progressive lines, and they would find something to send back in the 
 wagon in a small way, and that would grow, and what they would 
 bring in would be of untold help to them. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I understand, Mr. Hale, that you are in favor of 
 a flat rate over the country, and if you can not get that you are 
 opposed to any zone system ? 
 
920 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Hale. Absolutely. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You realize, do you not, that it costs more to 
 carry a package across the continent than for a zone of two or three 
 hundred miles ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Unquestipnably it costs some more, but not quite as 
 much as it appears on the surface. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Would you have this carnage by the Govern- 
 ment made exclusive and deprive the express companies of the right 
 of carriage within the weight limit established by the Government ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. That is a matter I haven't given any serious thought 
 to, but I am perfectly willing to let them go ahead and do any 
 business they can under it. That is my first thought. 
 
 Senator Bryan. The express companies make a difference in 
 charge in prpportipn to distance, do they not ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Oh, yes. 
 
 Senator BPTAN. That must be based on some sound business 
 principles, don't you think ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Probably so, and yet a good many of their rates are 
 not based on sound business principles, except what they can get out 
 of it. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Yes. But none of their rates are made for less 
 than they can affprd to do business for ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. I have heard some discussion, and I can not tell where 
 now, but in packages they are carrying clear across the country, they 
 carry them all the way across the United States for a low rate. 
 
 Senator Bryan. But, as a general proposition, they increase the 
 rate as the distance increases ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Yes; but I do not believe we can do it in the postal 
 service. We do not do it with the letters and I do not believe we 
 can do it consistently at all. If there is a loss from carrying a package 
 to your home in Florida from New York rather than from New York 
 to Philadelphia, if there is a profit made on the Philadelphia package, 
 let's make the Philadelphia man pay the profit to make up for the 
 loss that you and your neighbors incur on the long-distance packages. 
 I think it should be uniform all over the United States. 
 
 The Chairman. You think it is right to tax the whole people in 
 order that a shipment may be carried any distance ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. I certainly do. We have to stand together. The 
 strong must help the weak. 
 
 The Chairman. Ypu do not think there would be any difficulty in 
 carrying out that practice in competition with the express companies, 
 even if the practice itself were right in principle ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. I judge from that question you tear they might take the 
 short-haul business 2 
 
 Senator Bryan. They dp it now. 
 
 Mr. Hale. Yes. Bpt make a rate that will meet them. I never 
 could bring myself to believe and understand that we could cut up 
 this country into any zone system for a postal service. 
 
 The Chairman. We do it on transportation. That is, the rail- 
 roads do it and the Interstate Commerce Commission directs that 
 they do it. The express companies will probably have to do it, if the . 
 Interstate Commerce Commission so directs. Why should not you 
 m this particular branch of the railroad service, which becomes a 
 transportation in a way, adopt the same bupnqss principle that is 
 
PARCEL POST. 921 
 
 does by the Government in its regulatory power and by private enter- 
 prises in their activities, based upon business acumen ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. I do not know that I can answer that question to your 
 satisfaction or my own, but I have some sort of a feeling that the post- 
 office business is a different proposition; in a way it is run for the bene- 
 fit of the express companies. The railroads are run by private inter- 
 ests for profit, and each express company and railway line must make 
 a profit ; but here is a great organization under and controlled by the 
 people for the people, and if they are willing, as I believe they are, they 
 ought to do that business for some of the people at a loss, because 
 they are part of the great family of the whole, and I believe that we 
 ought to do it. I do not say that it is good business sense. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You say it is not ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. I said it might not be. 
 
 The Chairman. You take the position that everybody in the 
 country would participate in its benefits? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Absolutely. 
 
 The Chairman. And if there were a loss it would be taken out of 
 one pocket and a gain put into another pocket, so that the burden 
 would be general and the benefits general ? 
 
 Mr. Hale. Do not understand me as speaking for the rural com- 
 munities of Connecticut and Georgia, as speaking for them alone; I 
 am speaking for their interests, what they need, and what they want; 
 but this parcel post, properly established and carried out, must and 
 will be to the benefit of everybody in the country, and even the coun- 
 try merchant will be so pleased when it comes along that he will be 
 surprised he was led astray, and country merchants have been led 
 beyond a question. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Under the present conditions the business center 
 of any State has an advantage due to location over large cities at a 
 great distance. That is an advantage that nature has given to them. 
 Do you think that it is a part of the business of the Government to 
 take away that advantage and make those people pay an increased 
 amount in order that all of the people may have a flat rate of car- 
 riage of fourth-class mail matter? 
 
 Mr. Hale. I judge by that question that you feel that it is taking 
 something away from a local community. I believe it is going to be 
 a blessing to every local community to have it. I do not think that 
 any of your small towns in Florida would be injured by this, but I 
 feel they would be benefited, absolutely. I know some merchants 
 have been led to believe it would injure them. 
 
 Senator Bryan. They haA^e to pay the freight rate, and by reason 
 of being nearer to their customers they can control the business 
 under present conditions because of freight rates. Now, isn't it 
 true that under the establishment of the plan you advocate, the 
 Government, so far as its facilities in the carriage of fourth-class 
 mail matter are concerned, would take away that natural advantage? 
 
 Mr. Hale. I do not think it would take it away at all. It would 
 bring business to it out of every rural village that does business 
 within a radius of territory that it must leave open, and those people 
 if they can get packages delivered by rural post to their own homes, 
 the great majority of them will prefer to trade at home with a friend 
 and neighbor; a man they know and a man they can buy from to 
 
 21845— vol 4—12 4 
 
922 PARCEL POST. 
 
 advantage, and if there is anything wrong they can have it exchanged. 
 In that way they can buy from their own merchants to greater 
 advantage than they can from the merchant 500 miles away. 
 
 Senator Bryan. In the nature of things you can not carry pack- 
 ages a great distance as cheaply as you can a short distance ? 
 
 Air. Hale. Oh, not generally; no. 
 
 Senator Martine. I will say I am very much impressed with the 
 gentleman's argument. I am a farmer myself and have been until 
 the past year or two. I have been a very earnest advocate of a 
 parcel-post system for many years, and I am much impressed with 
 the gentleman's remarks. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there airy further remarks you care to make 
 to the committee, Mr. Utile? 
 
 Mr. Hale. I think that has covered the ground, and I thank you 
 very much, gentlemen. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you for coming 
 before the committee. 
 
 (See pages 929 and 930 for later testimony of Mr. Hale.) 
 
TESTIMONY OF MR. FREDERICK C. BEACH, PRESIDENT, POSTAL 
 
 PROGRESS LEAGUE. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Beach, it is necessary that you be sworn. 
 
 Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you please state your age, residence, and 
 present occupation ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. I am 63 ; editor and part owner of the Scientific 
 American; resident at Stratford, Conn. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you connected with any organizations or 
 associations ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. I am president of the Postal Progress League. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you been president ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. About four years. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state for the information of the 
 committee what the Postal Progress League consists of, the scope of 
 its activity, and its functions 1 
 
 Mr. Beach. The league consists of many prominent concerns; we 
 have subscribers, and the object is to promote postal matters, or the 
 cheapening of the rates and to equalize the postage on the transmis- 
 sion of parcels throughout the country on a basis that will be equiva- 
 lent to what is done elsewhere. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean in other countries ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. Yes ; or even less, if necessary. We have introduced 
 a bill in Congress through Mr. Sulzer, and I believe Senator O'Gorman 
 has introduced the same bill here in the Senate. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean the bill was prepared by the league, 
 and Mr. Sulzer and Senator O'Gorman introduced it by request in 
 both houses of Congress ? x 
 
 Mr. Beach. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the nature of the bill ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. The nature of the bill is, first, to reduce the rate on 
 packages and parcels from 16 cents to 8 cents a pound, and the other 
 part is to increase the weight limit from 4 pounds to 11 pounds. This 
 rate we adopted because it was the rate that was most prevalent 
 abroad and all over the world. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any argument to submit to the com- 
 mittee in support of this bill that you have described ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. Well, the only argument is that the rate on parcels is 
 simply reduced to what it was in 1874, and it seems to be a rate which 
 is certainly enough to pay for the transportation of merchandise. 
 
 The Chairman. Yet we have the report of the department that 
 it costs the department about 12 cents or a little less than 12 cents a 
 pound, for transportation of fourth-class mail matter to-day. 
 
 Mr.* Beach. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. On what do you base your assertion that 8 cents 
 a pound would be enough to make that particular branch of the 
 postal service self-supporting ? 
 
 1 See vol. 3, p. 664. 
 
 923 
 
924 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Mr. Beach. Because if you take the regular railroad freight rate 
 to-da}'- to distant parts of the country from one part of the country 
 to another, as agreed upon by the Interstate Commerce Commission, 
 you will find that the rate per ton is a good deal less than $80 per ton 
 would be. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you predicating your statement upon the 
 assumption that the Government will compel the railroads to carry 
 at a much lower rate than they do to-day, or upon the governmental 
 ownership of railroads ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. No. I think that the post office should not pay them 
 more than the regular rate for the transportation of merchandise than 
 the freight rate. 
 
 The Chairman. Then there is a vast difference, is there not, in the 
 service — in the rapidity of it? 
 
 Mr. Beach. I understand, but if you establish a parcel post in 
 large cities you could have enough parcels a day to make up a train- 
 load, which could be shipped on the basis of a freight rate. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, but the rapidity of your service would be 
 much less than it is now in the case of mail matter. Your idea is to 
 establish in your parcel-post system a much slower service than you 
 do in the transportation of the first, second, and third class mail — 
 or first and third class mail ? There is a difference now being made 
 in a part of the second-class mail. 
 
 Mr. Beach. Well, that is the idea. 
 
 The Chairman. What would happen in the case of your perishable 
 articles then ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. My idea would be that we would have one uniform rate 
 for parcel post and then we would have a special-delivery-stamp 
 arrangement put on. 
 
 The Chairman. To expedite the service ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. That is the idea exactly. 
 
 The Chairman. That' is, the rapidity of the service ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. In the bill that your association has passed upon, 
 which, as I understand, at the request of your association Senator 
 O'Gorman has introduced in the Senate and Kepresentative Sulzer 
 in the House, you make an 8-cent-a-pound rate up to 11 pounds; 
 that is, 88 cents for 11 pounds? 
 
 Mr. Beach. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a general parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Beach. That is a general parcel post, and of course is a larger 
 rate than the freight rate. 
 
 The Chairman. And your idea would be on that delivery to have 
 a much lower service than you have now for first and third class and 
 a part of your second class mail ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. That is the idea. 
 
 The Chairman. With an extra charge or an increased charge for 
 the most rapid service. 
 
 Mr. Beach. That is right. No; I do not say an extra charge. 
 I said it could be put on. 
 
 The Chairman. Did your association in consideration of the 
 subject discuss at all the establishment of a zone system in the 
 country ? , 
 
 Mr. Beach. No; we did not. We did not consider that advisable. 
 
PARCEL POST. 925 
 
 The Chairman. Well, if there was no discussion, how did you come 
 to any conclusion that it was considered by the association as unde- 
 sirable ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. Well, because we went on the plan that the rates from 
 the short haul would compensate the extra expense on the long haul, 
 so that it would be equalized. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the membership of your association ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. I think we have 100 or more. 
 
 The Chairman. Generally distributed over the United States ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. Yes; more or less over the United States. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Did you say 100 or 500 ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. Five hundred, I should have said. 
 
 The Chairman. And the home office is where ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. Boston, Mass. The New York office is 125 East 
 Twenty-third Street. 
 
 The Chairman. But the home office is in Boston ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. Yes; the home office is there. The other provision of 
 our bill provides for a lower rate on the rural free-delivery service. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, in effect, you have a zone system, two zones, 
 your rural-delivery zone and your general zone. Is not that true ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. Yes; that is true if you call it. a zone. It simply 
 represents the rural routes and the general routes. 
 
 The Chairman. What rate do you provide for on rural routes? 
 
 Mr. Beach. We provide a rate according to the size. The rate we 
 provide in the bill is 1 cent up to 1 pound, and over that weight up to 
 1 1 pounds 5 cents, and on packages up to 25 pounds in weight 10 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. I thought the maximum weight limit of your bill 
 was 11 pounds. You increase that on rural routes, do you ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. Yes; on rural routes. 
 
 The Chairman. What was your reason for deciding on two zones — 
 your rural-route zone and your general zone ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. Well, the point was that usually the rural route did 
 not involve any railroad transportation and that the law provided 
 that there should be a vehicle and a traveling postman to go along 
 with it, and it was thought, as the vehicles were mostly empty, 
 they were allowed to carry only 25 pounds of matter on the usual 
 run, that the cost of transportation would be a great deal if they 
 carried merchandise too; so it would not be necessary to tax mer- 
 chandise going a short distance, say, 8 or 10 miles, whatever the 
 route was. Then, again, the interchange of merchandise between 
 
 I>eople living along the route would not have to be carried such a 
 ong distance, for the distance would be so short. 
 
 The Chairman. Your idea was you could utilize the facility the 
 Government already had that was not utilized to its fullest extent ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. That is the sole idea. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You fix this lower rate on the rural routes 
 because it costs the Government less than it would if the merchandise 
 went on the train. 
 
 Mr. Beach. Yes; that is the idea, and it would facilitate the 
 transportation of merchandise between the country store and the 
 outlying districts. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why, then, would you not make the same dis- 
 tinction on a general parcel post ? It costs less to transport a 
 parcel 10 miles than 3,000. Why shouldn't you have a different rate ? 
 
926 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Mr. Beach. Because it would not be what you call a local rate. 
 It is the same principle as establishing a local rate in the cities for the 
 transmission of mail matter from one street to another, where the 
 rates can be lower. It was simply canying out that idea. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is, you apply the same principle that pre- 
 vails as to letters and express matter or packages ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. Yes; of course packages coming from a distance to a 
 local post office, addressed to a party in that rural district, would be 
 under the regular rate; then it would be carried on this rural vehicle 
 and be delivered the same as a letter. It has been estimated that if 
 the parcels were carried on these rural routes, it would produce a 
 large revenue and pay the loss that has resulted in the establishment 
 of the rural routes. The last report of the Postmaster General seems 
 to indicate that in spite of this drag on the postal service the depart- 
 ment has come out ahead in this last year. It is self-evident if you 
 reduced the rate and increased the business, and it is increased equally 
 all over the country, that it is bound to be self-supporting.' 
 
 Senator Bristow. You spoke of having 8 cents as the universal 
 rate; that the profits on the short haul would make up for the loss on 
 the long haul. Suppose the express companies got the short hauls, 
 as they do now. Where would you get your profits then to make up 
 the loss on the long hauls from? 
 
 Mr. Beach. I do not think it would make any difference, because 
 I am told they pay the railroads an average of three-quarters of a cent 
 a pound for transmitting their matter. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, that would indicate that they could take 
 the short hauls then for very much less than the Government's 8-cent 
 rate, and therefore they would take it, would they not? 
 
 Mr. Beach. That I do not know. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, they do at the present. 
 
 Mr. Beach. They have various rates. Their system of rates is very 
 complicated. m 
 
 Senator Bristow. They make them less than the postal rates 
 wherever it is profitable to haul for less than the postal rates. 
 
 Mr. Beach. I suppose they do. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is there any reason to suppose they would not 
 do the same thing if the postal rates were reduced ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. I do not know. I do not think they want to have the 
 rates reduced. 
 
 The Chairman. I .think Mr. Beach's position is predicated on the 
 assumption that the Government forced the railroads to carry fourth- 
 class matter at much lower rates than is now paid them. Is that so? 
 
 Mr. Beach. Yes; that is true, I think. 
 
 The Chairman. I say, your position is predicated upon that 
 assumption ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. Yes; predicated upon that assumption. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Your proposition is then to charge the same rate 
 for a thousand miles than you charge for 1 00 miles ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. Precisely. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Though the cost would probably be five times as 
 much for the carriage of 1,000 miles as it is for 100 miles — it might be 
 five to eight times as much. 
 
 Mr. Beach. That depends on how you look at it. 
 
 Senator Bryan. The actual cost of transportation, I mean. I do 
 not, mean what we pay out. 
 
PARCEL POST. 927 
 
 Mr. Beach. No; the cost of transportation. I contend that the 
 chief item of cost in the postal service is in transportation. Now, to 
 disprove your statement that it costs so many times more for a long 
 distance I inquired yesterday at the office of the New York Central 
 Railroad Co., for the cost of freight rates on a carload of books or 
 
 ?rinted papers from New York City to Chicago and also from New 
 "ork City to San Francisco, and I think T have a memorandum here 
 with me for carload and less than carload lots. The charge from 
 New York to Chicago in carload lots was at the rate of 50 cents a 
 hundred pounds, books or printed matter; less than carload lots it was 
 75 cents per hundred pounds . The freight would be delivered in Chicago 
 the third morning after it had been shipped from New York. The 
 same road would agree to take carload lots and part carload lots of 
 printed matter and books from New York to San Francisco at the 
 rate of $2 per hundred pounds — or rather, less than carload lots $2 per 
 hundred pounds and carload lots at $1.40 per hundred pounds. That 
 is not eight times as much. 
 
 Senator Beyan. That, however, is not a reply at all to my question. 
 
 Mr. Beach. Well, perhaps not. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I did not ask you about the charge. I asked you 
 about the cost of transportation and not the charge of the railroads, 
 but the expense of the haul itself without regard to the actual sum 
 charged by the railroad company. 
 
 Mr. Beach. I see. Well, I presume that the actual cost would be 
 less than what I have stated, because they must make some profit. 
 My idea was to get some criterion. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Can you determine the cost with any defmiteness 
 by their charges. Are they not frequently arbitrary ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. They certainly are. 
 
 Senator Bryan. When the Government handles the proposition, 
 can't the Government require the charge to be equalized according 
 to actual cost, rather than the arbitrary prices put by the railroads ¥ 
 
 Mr. Beach. That is correct. 
 
 Senator Bryan. What I was seeking to find out from you was the 
 relative cost, not the charge. 
 
 Mr. Beach. The charge for printed matter and for books from New 
 York to Denver, Colo., in less than carload lots, was fixed at $2.50 
 per hundred. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And was it $2 to San Francisco ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. Oh, yes; and in carload lots to Denver it was $2.21. 
 
 Senator Bristow. -What was it to San Francisco in carload lots? 
 
 Mr. Beach. In carload lots to San Francisco it was $2 a hundred. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I thought that was less than carload lots. 
 
 Mr. Beach. In less than carload lots; yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is 80 cents less than it was to Denver. 
 
 Mr. Beach. Yes; I inquired from the agent how that was and he. 
 could not tell me. 
 
 Senator Bryan. While the cost to them must necessarily have 
 been less, the charge was greater; while the cost of hauling to Denver 
 must have been less than to San Francisco they charged more ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. That is right. 
 
 The Chairman. We have quite a number of witnesses, Mr. Beach, 
 to appear before the committee yet. Are there any further points or 
 
928 PARCEL POST. 
 
 views that you would like to express for the information or benefit of 
 the committee? 
 
 Mr. Beach. I only suggest that I think the matter of insurance 
 should be considered in regard to parcel post, and that is the point 
 that we bring up in our bill — that some indemnity for lost parcels 
 should be provided. I have written out a few remarks here on that 
 subject. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly read them, so that we may get 
 them in the record ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. It appears to be the unanimous sentiment throughout 
 the Nation that its inhabitants should have a simple, inexpensive, 
 unhampered parcel post for the easy, safe, and quick interchange of 
 commodities and merchandise. Our league has given this matter 
 careful study and consideration for the past four years and has 
 evolved a plan for the distribution and exchange of the country's 
 produce along rural routes which is unique in its way, furnishing a 
 regular, reliable means of transportation at a low rate that will cer- 
 tainly reduce the cost of living and afford a greater income for the 
 producer, enabling him to deal directly with the consumer, avoiding 
 middle commissions and excessive express charges, and bring more 
 profit to the country stores, because of the larger business. The time 
 is passed for the establishment of an experimental rural or general 
 parcel post. The need now is the immediate creation of a simple, 
 uniform parcel-post s3 T stem, capable of expansion to suit changing 
 conditions, and accommodate ever} r section of the country. 
 
 These bills provide for the reduction of the rate on fourth-class 
 matter from 16 cents to 8 cents a pound, which was the prevailing 
 rate in 1874, and an increase of weight limit from 4 pounds to 11 
 pounds per package, with a lower rate of 2 cents for 4 ounces for 
 sealed packages for local free delivery and 1 cent on each 2 ounces 
 above the first 2 ounces. On the free rural delivery routes the rate 
 is to be considerably lower — that is, 1 cent for an ounce or a fraction 
 of an ounce up to 1 pound, and over that weight up to 11 pounds 5 
 cents, and on packages up to 25 pounds in weight 10 cents. Then 
 there are also provisions for packages not exceeding a cubic measure- 
 ment, based on the same rate; and lastly, and in section No. 4, there 
 is a provision that indemnity should be paid on lost packages, cer- 
 tificates of postage insurance, all of which is now in use in certain 
 foreign countries. We believe this measure forms a basis for legis- 
 lation that should be of immense value to the people of the United 
 States; as it has proved to be, for instance, in such countries as 
 Great Britain. 
 
 The Chairman. I would like to ask you this question: How are 
 the expenses incident to the operation of your organization borne? 
 
 Mr. Beach. By subscriptions. 
 _ The Chairman. Among members of your association, or solicita- 
 tion of subscriptions from people who are not members of vour asso- 
 ciation, or both ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. Both. 
 
 The Chairman. Are any of the mail-order houses or catalogue 
 houses members of your organization ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. I believe not. 
 
 The Chairman Have you received any subscriptions from the 
 mail-order houses or railroads ? 
 
PARCEL POST. 929 
 
 Mr. Beach. No, I think we have received subscriptions from one 
 mail-order house, however. 
 
 The Chairman. From which one ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. I think it was Montgomery Ward & Co. 
 
 The Chairman.. Have you ever received any from any of the 
 others ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. I think so. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you such knowledge on that subject that 
 you could state for the information of the committee the aggregate 
 amount that you have received in all from mail-order houses or 
 catalogue houses ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. I think it is a very small amount. It might be $400; 
 perhaps $500. 
 
 The Chairman. In all ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. Yes; in all. 
 
 The Chairman. Have ou received any subscriptions from any 
 railroad or railroad officials ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. I believe we received one. 
 
 The Chairman. And the amount of that? 
 
 Mr. Beach. I do not recall the exact amount. Of course, I have 
 not the figures here. It might be a hundred dollars. Mr. Cowles 
 will probably be able to tell you. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any knowledge as to the total amount 
 of subscriptions that you average annually from the members of your 
 organization or from outside subscriptions ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. Well, I have not the details here, but it may be some- 
 where in the neighborhood of $400 a month; something like that. 
 
 The Chairman. It is not mere curiosity that prompts my question. 
 The object is to get the facts, as we have had before the committee 
 evidence, or rather witnesses, who have taken the position that there 
 was an organized movement on foot, backed by the mail-order 
 houses and catalogue houses and the railroads themselves, to increase 
 the present activity of our parcel post. I simply wish to get for the 
 information of the committee all possible data bearing upon that 
 particular phase of the question. That was all. 
 
 Mr. Beach. I have not heard of any such movement. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Has your organization worked out the relative 
 cost of the long and short hauls; not tbe charges, but the actual costs 
 for the transportation? 
 
 Mr. Beach. I do not think we have. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You have nothing of that kind you could give us ? 
 
 Mr. Beach. No, sir; we have only a general principle, and that is 
 the way it works. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you, Mr. Beach. 
 
 At this point of the hearing, Mr. J. H. Hale, of Connecticut, was 
 recalled at his own request, and made the f oUowing statement : * 
 
 Mr. Hale. I really feel it a duty that I owe to my fellow citizen of 
 Connecticut, Mr. James L. Cowles, secretary of the Postal Progress 
 League, to make answer to the question of the chairman of the com- 
 mittee in relation to the funds that support and sustain the Postal 
 Progress League. The information that mail-order houses, or others 
 interested in a business way, were financing it ; I have known of the 
 work of this organization 
 
 1 Previous testimony ends on p. 922. 
 
930 PABOBL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Not the ihformation of the chairman, I wish it 
 understood. 
 
 Mr. Hale. The information that has been submitted to the com- 
 mittee, that they were financing the league. I have known of Mr. 
 Cowles's work, and really Mr. James L. Cowles is very largely the 
 Postal Progress League, and it has been by contributions from per- 
 sonal friends who believed in his cause and who believed in him as a 
 man, small contributions, that have supported the league. In all 
 these ways it has been going on. Many of my acquaintances in my 
 own State of Connecticut have contributed small sums, $5 or $10 or 
 something like that. There are no big contributions back of the 
 Postal Progress League. It is the people's organization and sus- 
 tained by the people of this country, and not by large sums. 
 
TESTIMONY OF MR. B. A. PECK, REPRESENTATIVE OF THE 
 CONNECTICUT STATE GRANGE, BRISTOI, CONN. 
 
 The witness was first duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age, residence, and 
 present occupation ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. I am 60 years of age; live in Bristol, Conn. I am at 
 present a florist and a merchant. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you appear before the committee in any repre- 
 sentative capacit}^ for any organization, Mr. Peck ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. I am one of the legislative committee of the Connecticut 
 State Grange. 
 
 The Chairman. And in your appearance before the committee do 
 you represent the Connecticut State Grange ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. I do; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly indicate to the committee the 
 attitude of the Connecticut State Grange in reference to increasing 
 the scope of our present parcel post as represented under our fourth- 
 class mail provision ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. In my capacity I have been called all over different 
 parts of the State, and I have visited subordinate granges to quite a 
 great extent. I am also a member of and attend the State grange. 
 I have heard the matter brought up and discussed in State granges 
 and the subordinate granges throughout the State, and I know that 
 I am safe in saying that without perhaps an exception the members, 
 a majority of the members, nearly all of the members of the organ- 
 ization, favor a general parcel post. They think it is a necessity that 
 is needed above all things in their lines. 
 
 The Chairman. The membership of all your subordinate granges 
 in Connecticut would be what ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. I think Mr. Hale stated that as 30,000. It was in his 
 direct testimony he gave that number. 
 
 The Chairman. What would you figure the property value of the 
 members of the State grange, to get the viewpoint as to the amounts 
 of capital represented ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. Really I could net give you the figures, no more than 
 
 I can say this, that there are but very few towns in the State of 
 
 Connecticut that have subordinate granges, and in those subordinate 
 
 granges are nearly all of the farmers. The larger proportion of the 
 
 farmer element in those towns are represented in those subordinate 
 
 granges. As to the amounts of capital or the value of their farms 
 
 I could not give you anything definite. One reason for the demand 
 
 for a postal delivery is this: For instance, in my own location, near 
 
 the town of Bristol, we are bounded on one side by Burlington, on 
 
 the other side by Wolcott and Unionville; three places which have 
 
 no express office in their borders. The people have no way of 
 
 getting their express unless the} T drive to the nearest express office 
 
 m Bristol. It is very inconvenient and hampers them in their 
 
 work. 
 
 931 
 
932 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. In these communities that you have described 
 have you rural delivery service ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. Yes, sir ; I think all of them have. 
 
 The Chairman. And you feel that the increase in the activity of 
 our parcel post wduld be an increased transportation facility through 
 utilization of the Eural Delivery Service ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. Almost beyond exception. I think it would be a 
 wonderful help. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it the idea of yourself and associate members 
 of the grange that it will be an increased transportation facility for 
 the disposition or carriage of your products, or to assist you in 
 securing things that you have to buy more particularly ? 
 plMr. Peck. In answer to that question I should say both. I am 
 thoroughly satisfied that the farmers would use the parcel post in 
 delivering to customers quite a great deal of their produce. Bristol 
 has about 15,000 inhabitants and is surrounded by a farming com- 
 munity. If these people near this town could get their groceries in 
 small amounts and have them come through the parcel-post service, 
 I do not question but what they would do so, and that it would be of 
 great advantage to them. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the present method of transacting busi- 
 ness among the farmers in your community ? Do they assemble 
 their produce and try to ship by carloads to commission merchants 
 and to jobbers ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. In our vicinity there are no large farmers. It is a 
 dairy section largely and a great deal of the milk that is raised in 
 the immediate vicinity of Bristol remains there. There is none 
 sent away from the State; neither is there any carload of produce at 
 all. It is all sold at the nearby markets. 
 
 The Chairman. Shipped direct through some commission man or 
 some market man ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. It is mostly handled by the market men in our vicinity. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, would an increased parcel post facility change 
 that method of doing business regarding the class of business itself, 
 the great mass of the business ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. To some extent. Of course, I do not think that a farmer 
 would market all of his produce by any manner of means in that way, 
 but to a certain extent it would help him to get a direct sale for his 
 goods and the townsman would appreciate its coming direct without 
 having to have it lie for many hours", if it is a perishable article, before 
 getting to the tables of the people in the town. I do not think it 
 would be entirely handled in that way by an}^ means, because too 
 much produce is raised to be handled in that manner. Throughout 
 New England, especially in Connecticut, there are quite a number of 
 small villages located near the towns. For instance, near Bristol 
 there is a place named Edgewood and one of the ladies living at 
 Edgewood spoke to me about the method by which she obtained her 
 packages. If she wished to get a parcel from Hartford and does not 
 wish to carry it, the only way in which she can get it is to have it 
 sent out from Bristol by Adams Express. They raa,j think she is 
 going to nail for it, and it will lie in their office for 24 hours or more, 
 and then, when she does not call, they send her a postal card, and she 
 has to go in for it. If there was a parcel-post service she could get it 
 direct. 
 
PARCEL POST. 933 
 
 The Chairman. She is living on a rural route ? * 
 
 Mr. Peck. Yes ; a wealthy lady and living on a rural route. There 
 are a great many small familips such as that living in New England 
 that would very much appreciate a parcel-post delivery to them in 
 that manner. 
 
 The Chairman. In the vicinity in which you reside is there any 
 strong antipathy against an increase of our present parcel post ?. 
 
 Mr. Peck. A few years ago there was a strong feeling among the 
 farmers of Bristol against the idea of a parcel post, they fearing that 
 the large department houses would Hood the mails to the detriment 
 and harm of their business, but that feeling is largely disappearing. 
 I am a member of the Business Men's Association, and I know that 
 many merchants who were opposed to a parcel post a few years ago 
 are favorable to it now, believing that it will be an advantage to 
 them rather than a hindrance to their business. 
 
 The Chairman. You think, then, that the attitude is changing 
 quite rapidly as far as the country merchants are concerned, especially 
 in your own locality 1 
 
 Mr. Peck. I do. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Is that feeling applied to the rural delivery routes 
 or does it also apply to the general parcel-post system described 
 by Mr. Hale, in which there would be a flat rate all over the country? 
 
 Mr. Peck. As I said, the feeling was that these large department 
 stores would take customers from the country merchants in their 
 localities, to the detriment of their business. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I understand that, but in the change of sentiment 
 that has come, have they been under the impression that there would 
 be a flat general rate, or has their opposition to a local rural rate 
 simply been in a measure withdrawn ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. The discussion that I have heard has been the idea of a 
 flat postal rate throughout the country; they were afraid of having 
 the zone system. 
 
 Senator Bryan. They are still of the opinion that a flat rate would 
 be a great detriment to them, are they not ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. No. In the idea of a general postal delivery they 
 thought it might be detrimental to their business, but now they think 
 that their customers would not send away to any great extent to 
 these department houses for goods, because they would get the same 
 service from their nearby houses, and if there were any errors or 
 mistakes they could be made right. 
 
 Senator Bryan. And so it is your opinion that they now favor a 
 general rate as distinguished from a zone system? 
 
 Mr. Peck. I- do not say that the organization does as a whole, but 
 I do say that a great many men who were a few years ago opposed to 
 a general postal delivery are now favorable to it. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Would they prefer the general flat rate ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. So far as I have seen in my immediate vicinity a gen- 
 eral flat rate is more desired than a zone system. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Even among the merchants ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. Even among the merchants. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Is it not true that the benefits to which you have 
 referred as coming to your section are largely those which the rural 
 delivery system would give ? 
 
934 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Mr. Peck. So far as the merchants are concerned and so far as the 
 people in the country are concerned, I think the benefits would be 
 mutual. I think that the merchants, like myself and other mer- 
 chants in Bristol, would be able to send out to these smaller towns 
 each day or any day any article which they might desire, and in that 
 way it would benefit them greatly, and at the same time if I wished 
 to get a quart of fresh strawberries or something of that kind I could 
 have it sent to me by parcel post. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Are not those benefits both coming to the mer- 
 chants and to the farmers to which you have referred largely those 
 which the rural delivery would give ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. As I have spoken of them, they are. 
 
 Senator Bryan. That is what I mean. 
 
 Mr. Peck. So far as that matter is concerned, it is largely so, 
 although a good deal of the stock that a merchant sends out would 
 not go on a delivery that goes from Bristol ; there are deliveries from 
 other towns that cover that territory. At the same time they are 
 connected by telephone with Bristol and could order their goods 
 through that means. 
 
 Senator Bryan. If you had a flat rate, and charged the same rate 
 from your place to the nearby post office where the rural route would 
 take it, that you charged for a thousand miles across the country, 
 would not the burden be so great on you for your short route that you 
 could not afford to use the postal service ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. That is better answered by the willingness in which the 
 men with whom I come in contact signify their willingness to have 
 the flat rate. If it would be to their advantage, they are broad- 
 minded enough to understand the benefit. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Would not the Government have to charge a rate 
 which would practically pay the costs, and if it hauled a thousand 
 miles for the same rate that it hauled 25 miles, would not the 25-mile 
 haul have to carry a large part of the burden of reducing the rate on 
 the thousand-mile haul, and would not that result in such a burden 
 upon you that you could not do the business ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. I think those things have to be averaged. 
 
 Senator Bryan. If you average it, would not the short haul carry 
 largely more than its legitimate cost % Would it not be necessary to 
 put upon the short haul more than its legitimate cost if you put upon 
 the long haul much less than its cost ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. I do not think so, necessarily. I think that the men 
 who have the advantage, if there is any advantage in volume of 
 business, would help to counteract the expense of the long haul, so 
 that the average would be satisfactory to the people in general. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Would you join Mr. Hale in his position that 
 unless we could adopt a general rate, uniform over the whole country, 
 you would prefer not to have the rate applied to rural deliveries only % 
 
 Mr. Peck. So far as I have heard the matter discussed, both in 
 the grange and by others favorable to it, they are heartily in accord 
 with the wish that there be a flat rate all over the country rather 
 than by rural delivery. 
 
 Senator Bryan. But in the event it was not considered practi- 
 cable to put into effect this general uniform rate over the country, 
 would they not prefer Congress to go as far as it felt it could and put 
 into effect a rural route delivery system? 
 
PARCEL POST. 935 
 
 Mr. Peck. That is a question I can not answer for the people, 
 because, so far as I have heard the matter discussed, the unanimous 
 opinion has been that the}>- want a flat rate. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You have not heard them discuss, then, the ques- 
 tion of taking a partial benefit if they could not receive it all ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. Not particularly; no. That has not been discussed. 
 
 Senator Bryan. What is your opinion, individually, with reference 
 to it? 
 
 Mr. Peck. My individual opinion is that we want a flat rate. 
 
 Senator Bryan. And if you can not get that you do not want any 
 change ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. We want it. 
 
 Senator Bryan. But if you can not get it you do not want any 
 change ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. I am inclined to believe not. We want a flat rate. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You have shown to the committee where it would 
 be of great benefit if you could enjoy the rural delivery system. 
 
 Mr. Peck. I will tell you one reason; it is this: If I were going 
 into the express business, I should go where there was the most busi- 
 ness, and when you go in the way that we are speaking of — that is, 
 this zone rate — you are going into the less populated sections of the 
 country, where there would not be as many bundles delivered as if 
 we had a flat rate. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Do you understand that the zone system would 
 apply only to the sparsely settled communities % 
 
 Mr. Peck. As I understand it, it is to have the parcel post only 
 by rural carriers. 
 
 Senator Bryan. No, sir; you are entirely mistaken in your idea. 
 I had supposed that you gentlemen were laboring under a misappre- 
 hension with reference to what was meant by the zone system. As 
 outlined by Senator Bristow in the hearing, it is to make each post 
 office in the country the center of a zone, and spreading out from each 
 post office would be zones of, for example, 50 miles, 100 miles, 200 
 miles, 400 miles, 600 miles, 800 miles, and a thousand miles, and 
 beyond that one zone, charging more as the number of zones over 
 which the parcels were shipped and as the distance becomes greater, 
 so that some consideration should be given to making the carriage of 
 packages self-supporting, and so, also, as that one living a less dis- 
 tance would not have to bear the burden of the carriage of packages 
 to those living at greater distances. Under such a system as that 
 would you still prefer the flat rate, which has been described by you 
 and others in these hearings ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. In my answers before I have been under the idea that 
 the intention was to establish the system with rural carriers from 
 post offices, so that the matter in the way in which you speak of it, I 
 nave not heard discussed. My own personal feeling would be that a 
 flat rate would be much more desirable than any other. 
 
 Senator Bryan. But the only system you have discussed, then, is 
 the rural-route delivery and a flat rate, and you have not understood 
 that there was any other proposition in contemplation ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. Up to this time, no. I was discussing the matter as to 
 whether it should be a rural deliverey, making the scope of the zone 
 the scope of the rural delivery. 
 
936 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bryan. So, therefore, as between a zone system and a 
 flat-rate system, you are not in a position to state the attitude of 
 those whom you represent here ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. No more than this: In the grange meetings the matter 
 has been taken up and discussed as to the advisability of a parcel 
 
 Sost, and the matter has come up whether it was advisable to have a 
 at rate and they were heartily in favor of it. 
 
 Senator Bryan. But that is as applied to the rural route and the 
 country generally, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. That is the discussions that I have heard. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You have heard no discussion, then, of the zone 
 system ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. The zone system has not especially come up, where I 
 have heard the discussions. 
 
 Senator Bryan. And, necessarily, you are therefore unable to 
 state what position they would take with reference to it ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. I know that they are favorable to a flat rate, but about 
 a zone system I do not know. 
 
 The Chairman. But you personally would be in favor of increasing 
 the weight limit all over the country from 4 to 11 pounds, decreas- 
 ing the general rate of postage per pound below the 1 cent per 
 ounce rate now charged up to 4 pounds, even if a still lower rate 
 were made on a zone basis, distance basis, from every post office, 
 and a lower rate yet on rural delivery? 
 
 Mr. Peck. Yes; I think so. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I would like to call your attention to this view, 
 to see if you think it would not work an injustice, especially to your 
 own locality, to have a uniform rate. Now, your place is Bristol. 
 Suppose a rate were fixed from Bristol to a nearby post office 25 
 miles off and from there out 3 miles in the country, say, to a farmer's 
 home, giving you a 28-mile haul; you order from there 10 pounds 
 of butter, and it is shipped to you at once by postal service; another 
 point also handles butter 500 miles off. It would necessarily cost 
 the Government much more to haul the butter the 500 miles to 
 Bristol than it would cost the Government to haul it 25 miles to 
 Bristol. Would it not be an unjust burden on your locality to 
 make you pay the same rate for your 25 miles to Bristol that is 
 charged for the 500 miles to Bristol? Would not the Government, 
 if it fixed a uniform flat rate for the 500 miles and 25 miles, be com- 
 pelled to equalize the rate, charging more than actual cost for the 25 
 miles and less than actual cost for the 500 miles, equalizing, say, 
 upon a 250-mile haul as the uniform rate? Would not that there- 
 fore put on you with your 25-mile haul the burden of paying for a 250- 
 mile haul when you are entitled to a 25-mile rate, and would not 
 that be a hardship on the locality ? What is your view on that sub- 
 ject ? Not with the idea of expressing any opinion of my own, but 
 to find out how you think you could escape an unjust burden if that 
 system were adopted. 
 
 Mr. Peck. If I send a letter from Bristol to Forestville, a matter 
 of 2 miles, it costs me 2 cents. If I send one to California, it costs 
 me 2 cents, and still I do not think it is unjust. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Do you not recognize that there is an entire differ- 
 ence in the expense of handling the letter than in the transportation 
 of the letter ? Is not the principal expense the expense of handling 
 
PARCEL POST. 937 
 
 and not the rate of transportation ? When you get the heavy weights, 
 the expense is the expense of the haul and not the expense of handling. 
 
 Mr. Peck. The same thing applies if there should be a million 
 letters; the amount that they would pay would be in transportation. 
 
 Senator Bryan. But if the expense in the one case was for the 
 handling, and the handling was just as great for a long haul as for a 
 short haul, they would not relatively occupy the same position as the 
 expense of hauling heavy products, where the expense is the haul and 
 not the handling ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. I am inclined to think that those matters would adjust 
 themselves. _ 
 
 Senator Bryan. And you do not think it would be an unjust burden 
 on the locality ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. I do. 
 
 Senator Bryan. And the locality would be willing to stand that 
 250-mile haul ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. I think so. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You think they would rather have the charge too 
 much on a basis of a 250-mile haul, to save them a 25-mile haul ? 
 
 Mr. Peck. I think an even flat rate would be more desirable and 
 more to the benefit of the people at large than any other scheme or 
 plan that could be worked out. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you influenced in coming to that conclusion 
 by the thought that your market zone would be increased by your 
 flat rate % In other words, that you would be able to reach 250 miles 
 distant from your point at the same cost that you are able to reach 
 25 miles distant from that point and get a compensation that would be 
 equal to the increased zone of your activities % 
 
 Mr. Peck. My views in the matter are broad, the greatest good to 
 the greatest number, and I believe that in these days of our transpor- 
 tation in the way that it is with our wonderful facilities for getting 
 around, space is not so much of a question as it used to be. Many 
 miles are covered in a great deal shorter time. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any further views to present to the com- 
 mittee, Mr. Peck? 
 
 Mr. Peck. I think not. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee is very much obliged to you. 
 
 (The committee thereupon took a recess until 2.30 o'clock p. m.) 
 
 21845— vol 4—12 5 
 
AFTER RECESS. 
 
 The subcommittee reconvened at 2.30 o'clock p. m. 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman) , Senator Nathan 
 P. Bryan, and Senator Claude A. Swanson. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF ME. WALTER SCOTT. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Scott, it is necessary that you be sworn. 
 
 Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Scott, will you kindly state your age, residence, 
 and present occupation ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. My age is 65 years; my residence is from October to 
 May, Baltimore, Md., from May to October in Pittsfield, N. H., on a 
 rural mail-delivery route. I am a clergyman by profession, but I have 
 been for half of my public life engaged in educational work. 
 
 The Chairman. In your appearance before the committee to-day, 
 are you h'ere in an official capacity or do you appear personally? 
 
 Mr. Scott. Both, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. In what official capacity, if j r ou will kindly st^te? 
 
 Mr. Scott. I have been until recently secretary of the New Enlandg 
 Educational League. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you describe for the information of the com- 
 mittee the scope of the activity of the New England Educational 
 League and its purposes ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. The league was to secure equality of educational 
 opportunity throughout New England, recognizing the group of New 
 England States as a unit. It aimed to secure equality of education 
 for the country boy as compared with the city boy; the idea was 
 that New England was practically urban, one city, and 91 per cent 
 of the population was m railroad towns, both steam and electric, 
 with the city of Boston as a center, and the grouping of the States 
 makes education as practical there as in New York City, Baltimore, 
 Washington, or elsewhere. 
 
 The Chairman. Because of the facilities for cooperation and 
 communication ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. The railroad mileage of New England exceeds that of 
 any other country in the world, not excepting that of France, Eng- 
 land, and Germany, and, as I said, we used the whole New England 
 States as a unit, with Boston as a center. We secured the passage 
 of the act of the Massachusetts Legislature of 1911 and closed up that 
 work then. In addition, I have been secretary of what is called the 
 Library Post Committee. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you explain the scope of that committee? 
 
 Mr. Scott. That is related to the parcel-post idea; it aims to 
 
 permit library books to go through the mails from the libraries to the 
 
 reader and back, at the lowest possible rate — a cent, if you please, or 
 
 at cost — and that movement has the backing of the American Library 
 
 938 
 
PARCEL, POST. 939 
 
 Association, which is the national library body, the New England 
 Educational Association, and the Massachusetts Legislature. The 
 Federal committee also sent a communication to Congress favoring 
 that, and the California Legislature. It has the backing of practically 
 all of the library authorities of the whole country. 
 
 The Chairman. You appear here, then, as representing both associ^ 
 tions ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. I may so say; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And in the views that you submit to the committee, 
 they will be the views as generally in accord with the views of both 
 associations ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Where they are your own particular views, kindly 
 so designate. 
 
 Mr. Scott. I will. I come also in my own personal capacity of a 
 citizen who has lived in the rural towns and also in a large city and 
 as a man who is bringing up a family, so that — I am a student and 
 author to some extent — so that I meet this problem as one of the fun- 
 damental problems, not only of this country, but of civilization. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the extension of the parcel-post system ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. Yes; or the readjustment of the post office to the needs 
 of civilization. The parcel post is one item and an important one. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the particular item the committee now has 
 under consideration. Kindly confine yourself to that. Anything 
 that will cast light upon that subject we will be glad to hear. 
 
 Mr. Scott. Had I better answer questions ? 
 
 The Chairman. First I would like to get on record your view- 
 point as to whether the organizations you represent are favorable to 
 the extension of our present parcel-post system inaugurated under 
 the fourth-class mail matter ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. These associations are in favor of a library post, 
 which may be a minor proposition of a parcel post. In that sense 
 they are heartily in favor of it. 
 
 The Chairman. Do they expect special legislation applying only 
 to books collected in libraries ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. Yes; that is their objective point. They are not after 
 a book post, because that might be taken as commercial, but they are 
 after a library post; that is, for the circulation of books by mail at 
 the lowest possible practical rate. 
 
 Senator Bryan. That would not come under the fourth-class mail 
 matter at all, would it, Mr. Chairman ? 
 
 The Chairman. No. 
 
 Mr. Scott. I know the rates are 8 cents, but this may have bear- 
 ing upon it. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you are not able to present officially, as rep- 
 resenting the consensus of opinion in the organizations you represent, 
 their attitude toward the extension of the scope or activity of the 
 fourth-class mail matter ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. As I judge, the matter is an open question; if you 
 make the rates sufficiently low they would be interested, because they 
 would think that the library-post idea might be incorporated with 
 the parcel-post idea. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, joining the present fourth-class mail mat- 
 ter and third-class mail matter into one classification, you mean? 
 
940 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Scott. Yes, sir; at a lower rate than is proposed. Might I 
 speak as a citizen of the way I have met the transportation idea in 
 the country and city 'h 
 
 The Chairman. We will be very glad to hear you on that. 
 
 Mr. Scott. I live for four or five months in the year on a farm in 
 New Hampshire. We have a rural delivery mail there; we have tele- 
 phones ; and we are a mile or a little over from a post office and railroad 
 station. Now, if we want to have any package come which is too 
 large for the post office it has to come by express. There is an express 
 office in that town, but the hours at which it is open are uncertain, so 
 that one who wishes to utilize the express office has to run the chance 
 of spending a great deal of time in trying to get in touch with the office, 
 ana we happen to be a little outside of the radius of their free delivery, 
 so that we have to double up on the rates; that is, we have to pay a 
 good sum to have a package come from the express office to our farm, 
 which is a little over a mile from the office. 
 
 The Chairman. The express company not delivering to your farm ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. No; it does not deliver to our farm. It delivers within 
 a minor radius. That we feel is a hardship, and while it is not so much 
 of a hardship to us as it is to the people who live farther off, we believe 
 it is a detriment, because the express company does not perform the 
 service which one would expect it to do and I think we can not expect 
 it to do under the conditions that exist. Now, speaking from the 
 standpoint of one in the city, I have had occasion, when I was a resident 
 of Boston, to send packages to Suffield, Conn., which is perhaps 215 
 miles from Boston. Taking my express package to one company, 
 there being another express office in this town to which I referred, 
 the rates would be double, so that the expense would become unrea- 
 sonably high. 
 
 The Chairman. Does that condition exist to-day ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. That condition exists to-day. I mail from Baltimore 
 the country over, and I am very likely to have the rates doubled at 
 any time. 
 
 The Chairman. Because you have to do your transactions through 
 two different companies, is that it ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. Two different companies, and it is said — I am not suffi- 
 ciently well informed to know — that the stock of. these companies is 
 held substantially by the same shareholders. But, as a resident of 
 the country for a part of the year, I give an item which shows the 
 limitations existing under the transportation facilities, and as a resi- 
 dent of the city also, and it seems to me the true remedy for this is a 
 library post that is adequate and adapted to the needs of the people. 
 
 The Chairman. You make the distinction of a library post. 
 
 Mr. Scott. I mean a parcel post. The zone idea, which one of the 
 members of the committee referred to to-day, seems to me, from all 
 that I have learned in connection with the Post Office Department in 
 this and other countries, to be an antiquidated idea. It would cost 
 an immense amount of money to lay out this country on the mile 
 basis; it would require making every post office the center of an 
 infinite number — if I can use that phrase — of concentric circles. 
 
 The Chairman. No; only the number of actual circles that you 
 establish zones for. If your zones were established on a mileage basis, 
 if you had your first zone within 50 miles that would be one zone, and 
 you would not have an infinite amount of labor. If vour second zone 
 
PAECEL POST. 941 
 
 were 200 miles, that would be a second circle. If you establish 5 zones 
 you would have 5 circles, and your zones would consist of post offices 
 within the various respective circles. If it was the State zone, then the 
 State line would be the established line of demarcation; if the county 
 line, the county lines would be the established line of demarcation. 
 That is a question of detail, subject to determination as to practi- 
 cability . You make the statement, or inferentially so, it would be 
 impracticable. On what do you base that conclusion? 
 
 Mr. Scott. I base it partly on my own thinking and partly on the 
 authority of the best post-office inspector I ever met — Mr. C. W. 
 Ernst, of Boston. Mr. Ernst is a very careful student of postal mat- 
 ters, and has been an expert witness before congressional committees 
 from time to_ time. Canada, for instance, uses a 40-mile radius for 
 the free distribution of local papers; we use the county now, instead 
 of the mile idea, the county or the State group idea, which seems to 
 me to be more practicable. 
 
 The Chairman. And much simpler ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. And much simpler. 
 
 The Chairman. It is simpler so far as the detail of the machinery 
 of the checking of the work is concerned ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. Yes; and it gives a larger zone than the mile idea. 
 Furthermore, as I have been a student of this education I regard a 
 population group which contains a metropolis and the outlying area 
 as the true unit, the natural unit, and if a zone is to be inaugurated 
 it should include a city of the first order, and the population center 
 of a given district, and a district that is within the sphere or influence 
 of that metropolis. 
 
 The Chairman. How would you make your line of demarcation 
 for your limits of your zone under such an idea ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. Take Boston, for instance, New England. Take New 
 York City, New York State; take Philadelphia, that would cover 
 Pennsylvania; you could divide New Jersey between them. Take 
 Baltimore, the metropolis of an indefinite area, more strictly perhaps 
 Maryland and contiguous States. I do not wish to enter into an 
 argument, but simply to indicate my views to the committee. 
 
 The Chairman. We would like to have your views on the matter. 
 
 Mr. Scott. It is simply to indicate that the population group is 
 the thing to be considered in postal matters, as in commerce, educa- 
 tional effort, philanthropic effort, and the protection of life and prop- 
 erty when you come to get a unit. 
 
 The Chairman. The development of your territory is also a very 
 important factor in civilization, isn't it? 
 
 Mr. Scott. That goes with it. If you look to humanity other things 
 will follow in their proper place in order. 
 
 The Chairman. By giving humanity increased transportation 
 facilities. 
 
 Senator Swanson. What uniform rate for a parcel post do you 
 think would be a good one ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. There is where I feel hardly competent to answer you. 
 I have been in correspondence with the United States Post Office 
 Department and other parties for a great many years. When I 
 began a few years ago they said the cost per pound was from 5 to 8 
 cents. I learned this morning that they say now 12 cents. It 
 depends upon what you put in as the items of expense in reckoning 
 
942 PABCEL POST. 
 
 the cost of postal administration, and from the great disparity in the 
 answers I infer that the department does not know much about it. 
 
 Senator Swanson. What method would you have or recommend 
 if you had a uniform rate for short distances and long distances if the 
 express companies should charge less than the United States Govern- 
 ment for the short distances and more for the long distances ? What 
 would you recommend to obviate that difficulty ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. You are aware as to what the eastern district of the 
 express companies is, I presume — New York to Pittsburgh ? 
 
 Senator Swanson. Yes. Now, suppose they should change it and 
 make it less. Would you recommend us to prohibit them from 
 doing that ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. Oh, no; I think I would recommend a certain super- 
 vision of the express companies to prevent, for instance, the double 
 charges. 
 
 Senator Swanson. The difficulty confronting is to find a uniform 
 rate so as to prevent the express companies from loading on the 
 Government all the long-distance hauls and then putting the lesser 
 rate for the short-distance hauls and really make a tremendous 
 deficit to the Government, the express companies still making a 
 profitable business carrying packages for the short distances. What 
 do you recommend to obviate that difficulty ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. Well, I personally do not object to the zone idea in 
 this connection, providing the zone is made a natural zone, and by a 
 natural zone I mean such a zone as I have indicated, namely, one 
 that would contain a city of the first order, which is the great center 
 of that origin, and the outlying area, that is, the great city and the 
 sphere or influence of that city; for instance, Boston's sphere or influ- 
 ence extends until you touch Montreal in Canada, and New York 
 down in this direction. A certain zone arrangement might possibly 
 be made that would be natural, and in the passage of matter from 
 one zone to another there might be some adjustment. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Have you ever considered the proposition of a 
 rate very small and nominal, limited to a rural carrier route, another 
 rate for a county, another rate for a State, using those limits for a 
 zone? 
 
 Mr. Scott. Well, that is too small. A few years ago Senator Loud 
 advocated a thousand-mile rate, and we modified the library post bill; 
 we said give us for one district from the Atlantic to the Mississippi 
 River; give us for another from the Mississippi River to certain 
 boundary lines, and for the other the Pacific States, Alaska, and so on. 
 Now, that would give you some great citj^ centers, which in an educa- 
 tional sense are important, and would give you a large zone that 
 would not be open to the objections that the British system and the 
 German system and the Swiss system are open to. 
 
 The Chairman. What objections are there to the German, the 
 English, and the Swiss systems ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. From the fact that I think it is inconceivable in this 
 country to have a 10-mile zone or a 25-mile zone. We have made an 
 abstract of it, and I do not think that is conceivable in this country. 
 I think the people would regard it as altogether unsatisfactory, such 
 a great national community as ours. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Now then, how about a State for one zone and 
 another zone where a parcel goes to another State ? 
 
PARCEL POST. 943 
 
 Mr. Scott. Well, I would take the State of Texas, which is -an 
 empire, and take a group of States equal to that, take the New Eng- 
 land States and the middle States, for instance, and do as the Com- 
 missioner of Education does. He districts the United States into the 
 North Atlantic, the Southern Atlantic, and so on. I would take disr 
 tricts of that sort and call them zones, but when you come to divide 
 up your zones into 10, 25, or 50 miles I think the legislation would be 
 so petty it would be ridiculed by students of the post office and the 
 people themselves would see the fallacy of it. That is the criticism 
 I would make on the definition of a zone that was referred to this 
 morning. 
 
 The Chairman. In making your groups for your zone of States you 
 would take into consideration the distance, would you not, and you 
 would try to make these groups correspond as nearly as possible, so 
 far as distance and territory covered in the zone are concerned? 
 
 Mr. Scott. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. So that I do not see that your criticism exactly 
 applies to Senator Bristow's statement relative to the distance zones. 
 That is simply a matter of detail as to how the zones should be 
 arranged and what is the best practical way and the simplest way 
 for the arrangement of zones. You are in favor of the arrangement 
 of a zone system with a difference in rate really based upon distance 
 as between those various zones, are you not? The only difference 
 is you make population the basic principle. 
 
 Mr. Scott. Not necessarily; they go together. All our railroads 
 in New England converge at Boston, for instance. I do not wish to 
 protract a discussion, nor to avoid one, for that matter. 
 
 Senator Swanson. What I would like to know is, if you have 
 examined the subject, if a uniform rate of parcel post is established, 
 by what process we can prevent the express companies from taking 
 the short hauls that are profitable and letting the Government have 
 the long hauls that are unprofitable? How can we obviate that 
 difficulty ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. I think lower initial rate, such as Mr. Hale referred to 
 this morning, would help, and then the natural zone would take care 
 of itself, because men do not transact business, as a rule, at a long 
 distance from their place of business, just as men do not correspond, 
 as a rule, at a long distance. That is the natural law of society; so 
 it is not a question between 25 miles and a thousand, but it is a ques- . 
 tion of the free movement of society that we are after. This gentle- 
 man that I have referred to, Mr. Ernst, says that the United States 
 post office under proper conditions does not depend at all on the 
 length of the haul, but it depends upon the terminal handling; that 
 the terminal handling requires expert service; but if you drop a letter 
 in a post office it costs no more to take it to Australia than to take 
 it across the street. 
 
 Senator Bryan. He was speaking of the first-class mail ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. The same thing applies to anything that would come 
 under the purview of this. 
 
 Senator Bryan. No. As a matter of fact, was he referring to 
 fourth-class mail matter ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. He was referring to the postal system as a whole. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You argue by analogy that the same thing would 
 apply, but that is your argument and not his ? 
 
944 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Mr. Kcott. As I understand, he holds that position. I am subject 
 to correction by Mr. Cowles, if he is here; Mr. Cowles is one of the 
 most expert students of the postal system I hare ever met. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Cowles has been before the committee and has 
 given his views and touched upon this phase. 
 
 Mr. Fcott, Might I say just this word? You have been speaking 
 of the transportation of goods, but let me say this: That the postal 
 system was designed partly for that and partly for the furtherance of 
 education, that there is an educational idea as well as a traffic trans- 
 portation idea and the leading librarians maintain that the scarcity 
 of books away from the great centers tends to the intellectual lowering 
 of the people of our country. It is a rare thing for people in the 
 country to have access to the books they need- -the young lawyers, 
 teachers, clergymen, the intellectual mechanic, the farmers, and so on. 
 They are shut out from the libraries of the State and the country, and 
 that has a serious effect upon the intellectual development of the 
 Nation. We are too much readers of newspapers and magazines and 
 too little readers of thorough books. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Don't you have through Massachusetts travel- 
 ing libraries furnished by the State ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. No; we do not need them there because every town 
 has a library. There are some 353 towns, each with a library, but 
 the difficulty is the carriage of library books by mail is so expensive 
 that there is very little of it done. There is a report of a library in 
 Boston which is designed to furnish books to all clergymen in New 
 England; that is not a local library, but it is designed to cover that 
 eomrnimity and they raise money to pay the mail carriage of these 
 books by voluntary contributions, so that the poorly paid minister, 
 away off in the woods, may have access to the best of books. Now, 
 those books ought to go as cheaply as a magazine, which has half 
 advertisements, or more, or a yellow journal or the like, so that the 
 educational aspect of this parcel-post idea, if it is sufficiently low, 
 is very important with them. This carrying of libraries has been done 
 more in Wisconsin under the traveling-library idea. 
 
 Senator Swanson. We have them all through Virginia now. 
 Every community desiring it, the State will furnish them with a 
 traveling library, loan it to them, send around and bring the books 
 back to the State capital, and a new set of books sent out. That is 
 all paid for by the State of Virginia. 
 
 The Chairman. Is the activity furnished by the State legislation? 
 
 Senator Swanson. Furnished by State legislation. There are two 
 classes of libraries for the general Jmblic and for the schools. 
 
 Mr. Scott. Those are good. That is a good movement, but the 
 post office might do that also. 
 
 Senator Swanson. It is quite a little expense to us shipping them 
 in and out from the different schoolhouses as you suggest. 
 
 Mr. Scott. I have in mind a gentleman who was a maker of books, 
 and a clergyman; he knew the Astor Library in New York, and the 
 Lenox and other libraries, and he moved up to Tariffville in Con- 
 necticut. Said I, "How do you like your place?" "Very well," 
 said he, "but I miss my 3,000,000 volumes I had while in New York." 
 There is a man who ought to have access to books. I have in mind 
 special men who want to do more thoroughly intellectual work, and 
 +T ^e presence of those men in the country is of very great value. 
 
PARCEL POST. 945 
 
 Senator Swanson. What weight do you suggest for a library 
 feature of a parcel post 1 I mean what weight would you suggest in 
 a package 1 
 
 Mr. Scott. I have in mind especially single books, but of course 
 11 pounds would allow a group of books to go. 
 
 Senator Swanson. You think 11 pounds would be about the right 
 weight for books ? 
 
 Mr. Scott. If you can not give us more, give us the best terms 
 you can. Of course, in this library matter, men like Mr. Lane, of 
 Harvard, and Mr. Rowell, of the University of California, are men 
 who are all interested, and on a point like that I should have to get 
 their views. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you believe there is a strong educational 
 feature, if the present parcel-post system, as embodied under our 
 present fourth-class-mail provision, were enlarged in its activity and 
 made to include the carriage of library books and others at a much 
 lower rate than that now charged, either under the fourth or third 
 class mail matter % 
 
 Mr. Scott. I believe it would be a very important matter. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any other views that you think would 
 be of interest and value to the committee that you would be able to 
 present, or is there any information bearing upon the subject that 
 you can give us % 
 
 Mr. Scott. I hardly feel I ought to take up more time of the com- 
 mittee. 
 
 The Chairman. We thank j t ou for appearing before us. 
 
TESTIMONY OF ME. W. A. HENRY, EMERITUS PROFESSOE, 
 UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Henry, it is necessary that you first be sworn. 
 
 Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Henry, will you kindly state your residence 
 and occupation? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Sixty-one years of age; emeritus professor of agri- 
 culture, University of Wisconsin; formerly dean of the College of 
 Agriculture, residence, Wallingford, Conn., rural route No. 2. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you been identified with the Wis- 
 consin University ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. I wont to the University of Wisconsin in 1880 as 
 professor of botany and agriculture, and resigned the deanship of the 
 College of Agriculture and Agricultural Experiment Station in June, 
 1907. 
 
 The Chairman. During the period of your service, what has been 
 the growth of the University ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. When I went to the University of Wisconsin we had a 
 relatively small faculty and an income of less than one hundred thou- 
 sand for the whole university, including the agricultural department. 
 When I left it the college of agriculture had more professors and in- 
 structors than four times the whole university when I went there. 
 
 The Chairman. How many students did they have in the whole 
 university when you first went there, and how many have they now? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Well, I think there were between four and five hun- 
 dred students in the university and none in the college of agriculture. 
 At the end of 11 years' work I could show twenty-seven hundred 
 students for that year. When I left there were, I think, eight or nine 
 hundred in the college of agriculture, all departments, and the uni- 
 versity had grown to about 3,500. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean the membership ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. The membership. 
 
 The Chairman. Outside of your connection with the University of 
 Wisconsin, have you any official association with an" organizations, 
 national or State ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. No, sir. I am practically now a farmer with my son, 
 an only child who chose to be a farmer and finally a fruit grower. 
 My son served his apprenticeship while a student and by staying out 
 of college he drifted into the fruit business, and the last party he was 
 with wasMr. J. H. Hale, and Mr. Hale, I think the committee sees, 
 can convince a" man of most anything, and my son concluded that 
 Connecticut was one of the good States to stay in. We have a fruit 
 farm there. We took abandoned land six years ago, to the aggre- 
 gate of 300 acres, not giving the New Haven Railroad at that time 
 half a carload of freight in broken packages for the year, that covers 
 the whole area that we now own and control. Last season we gave 
 the New Haven Railroad in solid freight cars enough to make up a 
 trainload of freight cars of materials shipped to and from that farm. 
 946 
 
PARCEL POST. 947 
 
 I want you to know, gentlemen, that I come to you as a farmer, one 
 who gets up at half past 5 or 6 in the morning, who eats his breakfast 
 at half past 6, and who is ready for work, when he can, every day 
 that I can get out. I am out until noon and then I come in for my 
 noon meal and go out again, and I wish I could impress upon you the 
 feeling that comes over myself — and I am sure it does come over my 
 son — as we go out of the house and looking down the big hill, as we 
 call it, and seeing the mail box, and we know that the mail man has 
 been there. About quarter past 11 he comes past there, throws 
 back the lid, takes out the letters, drops in the New York paper, our 
 New Haven daily paper, letters from friends, business letters, and 
 magazines, and all that, and if you knew of the magnificent act of 
 our Government in'that one thing you would see what it is that is 
 tending to unite us to make us believe in our country. Then if you 
 could see some of the other discouragements we suffer, you would see 
 the other side of country life. But there never was anything this 
 country ever did that binds the people of the country together as 
 does the rural free delivery. No matter what it costs we must keep 
 it up and strengthen it. If I may go on a minute, I want to call your 
 attention to the absurdity of the situation when you follow it to its 
 reasonable limit. Forty-two thousand rural carriers, provided by 
 you gentlemen, or your predecessors, start out from the post offices 
 of this country every morning. 
 
 The Chairman. On the rural routes ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. On the rural routes. You know that they travel in 
 the neighborhood of 25 miles each, carrying a little armful of mail, 
 and that they earn about one-third of the salary that is paid them. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think the 42,000 carriers believe that? 
 
 Mr. Henry. No. 
 
 The Chairman. That they only earn a third of their salary ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. I mean they earn it in the sense of the time they give ; 
 I have no fault to find with that, but you have arranged it by your 
 laws, so that they can only get back something like a third of what 
 you pay them. I figured it out the other day, and the farmers are 
 figuring it out all over the country, and they tell me about it, that 
 that man is not earning his salary and why, because the Govern- 
 ment would not let him. If you put these 42,000 rural carriers in a 
 ? recession with their wagons, they would make a line from here to 
 Venton, N. J., allowing 20 feet for each wagon. We farmers see 
 these wagons come by our houses every day and we wonder at 
 the stupidity of the Government that restricts their activities so 
 they can not earn more. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, earn more for the Government ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Earn more for the Government. 
 
 The Chairman. You are dealing with a subject purely from the 
 governmental standpoint and not from the standpoint of the indi- 
 vidual carrier? 
 
 Mr. Henry. No; from the governmental standpoint. I figured the 
 other day if they could earn 10 cents apiece carrying parcels, that 
 would amount to $4,200 a day, which is quite a sum to the farmer. 
 The farmer's son is figuring this, and he knows that there is some- 
 body restricting this. The agricultural papers are pouring this out 
 to the people every day, and we read in the agricultural papers about 
 the English parcel post, and we know that somebody in Washing- 
 
94 S PARCEL POST. 
 
 ton — and we would like to know who it was, Mr. Chairman and gentle- 
 men of the committee — made a regulation, a treaty with foreign 
 countries, by which an American citizen patronizing an American 
 post office can send an 11-pound package at the rate of 12 cents a 
 pound to foreign countries. I do not know whether it was the Post 
 Office Committee of the Senate that recommended that or not. 
 
 The Chairman. No ; that was done by the Postmaster General, 
 by and with the advice and consent of the President, and it is the 
 result of an arrangement between countries under the postal con- 
 vention. 
 
 Mr. Henry. Exactly; but the farmer does not understand why in 
 this great country the Postmaster General can cut the carrying rate 
 from 16 cents a pound to 12 cents a pound to foreign countries and 
 not give us the same rate in our own country. In other words, if 
 he can cut the rate from 16 to 12 cents with foreign countries, why 
 couldn't he cut it from 16 to 12 cents for the people of our own 
 country ? 
 
 The Chairman. He hasn't the power under the law to do that. 
 That requires congressional action; it is a matter of legislation. 
 
 Mr. He^ry. Then we read in the reports that England has just 
 made an arrangement by which a citizen of England can ship parcels 
 out of England, mailed to the United States, and have them go any 
 place in the United States, so that an 11-pound package costs them 
 79 cents, and they can ship 1 1 pounds from any town in Great Britain — 
 England, Ireland, or Scotland— to any post office, in the United States, 
 for varying charges up to 11 pounds, for which the English person 
 mailing that package pays 79 cents. What share does this Govern- 
 ment get of that carrying fee ? 
 
 The Chairman. We get none. But neither does England get any 
 share of the charge we make in the United States for matter we ship 
 to England under the convention agreement. 
 
 Mr. Hemry. But the farmers are wondering what this all means. 
 What does it mean? You are carrying parcels cheaper for other 
 people than you carry them for our own citizens. 
 
 Senator Swanson. The statement that the rural delivery routes 
 only pay about one-third of what they cost, have you figured that 
 accurately ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. I think that is a statement of the Postmaster General, 
 that it is two-fifths, or something like that. The Postmaster General 
 has stated that. 
 
 Senator Swanson. I have always taken the ground that these rural 
 delivery routes nearly pay for themselves. I was on the Post Office 
 Committee when they first made an appropriation of S10,00Q and they 
 insisted that it would bankrupt the country. I remember when 
 making the appropriation, that they insisted that it would bankrupt 
 the country, and last year was the first year that the rural free-delivery 
 routes were self-sustaining, and if you take the mad that is originated 
 on the routes, the 2 cent mail that pays, and the amount of cor- 
 respondence that is engendered by this rural delivery, I believe it 
 more than pays for itself, and ever since it has been extended the 
 deficit has become less and less every day. 
 
 The Chairman. You think the apparent loss is simply a matter of 
 bookkeeping '1 
 
 Senator Swanson. Bookkeeping. I remember when the sub- 
 committee first appropriated the $10,000, the tremendous fight we 
 
PARCEL POST. 949 
 
 had to get it extended. At that time the salary was small, but they 
 allowed a carrier to supplement that salary by carrying packages for 
 us. That has been eliminated now, hasn't it? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Henry. He can not do any other business, practically. 
 
 Senator Swanson. At that time he was allowed to carry packages, 
 for which he received compensation. 
 
 The Chairman. But he received compensation himself, and the 
 Government received no benefit from that. 
 
 Senator Swanson. But since that has been eliminated he could do 
 a great deal of work for which the Government could receive pay. 
 
 The Chairman. With the intense interest you have taken in the 
 subject, I presume you have watched the rural carrier and noticed 
 those who have come under your observation as to whether the vehi- 
 cles were carrying a full load or not ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you give the committee any idea as to the 
 probable number of pounds they carried or what probable amount, 
 with the equipment they now have, they could carry ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Well, our mail carrier who comes to our farm — I have 
 sometimes been in town and have seen him go to the post office — he 
 usually can carry all of his mail in one bag, at one crossing of the 
 street, and he drops it in his wagon and starts off. 
 
 The Chairman. What do you think would be a liberal estimate as 
 to the number of pounds he carries ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Our particular carrier, I would say, carries about 25 
 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. What would you figure the vehicle he has could 
 carry with perfect ease, taking into consideration the condition of 
 your roads and the surroundings there on his route ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Four hundred pounds, with the wagon he usually 
 drives, could be moved very easily, because we go over some of the 
 worst hills to get to our place, and I should say Ms light horse could 
 pull 400 pounds up our hills easily. 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, his horse would not have any 
 difficulty in pulling 16 times the amount he carries to-day? 
 
 Mr. Henry. If he worked half as many hours as we do, he could 
 easily move 16 times the load he moves to-day. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Have you good roads up through your section 
 of the State ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Pretty good roads in Connecticut. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Have you ever considered the proposition of 
 having automobiles, sort of a traveling postal car, go through the 
 country and let the carriers come in and radiate from there and 
 bring the mail back to these cars as they go all through the country 
 there? Did you ever consider the quickness and facility of getting 
 mail in and out by that process ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. My mind begins to go out in those directions as we 
 begin to study the problem. 
 
 The Chairman. But you come back to the desire to see some 
 start made ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. That is it. 
 
 Senator Swanson. What plan have you mapped out as wisest 
 and best to adopt in this parcel post, if it should be considered wise 
 to extend ;+ '"*" fay - 9 
 
950 PARCEL. POST. 
 
 Mr. Henry. First of all we should be allowed a larger package, and 
 secondly a greatly reduced price. Now, whether the O'Gorman bill, 
 which you gentlemen have before you, in offering 8 cents a pound as 
 the pound rate, is low enough, I am not quite sure, but it would help 
 us a great deal. I still feel that that is too high, and perhaps so high 
 that we won't see any greatly increased number of packages carried, 
 except for long distances, under that S3 r stem. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you see a greater weight carried? 
 
 Mr. Henry. You would see a greater weight and some increase, 
 no doubt, in the number of packages, perhaps a material increase. 
 But, if the express companies can carry the mail which is sent over 
 from England for 2 cents a pound, and they carry any package up to 
 11 pounds for 24 cents — The American Express Co. will carry any 
 package sent by mail to any person in the United States from Eng- 
 land, from the New York post office to any place in the United States, 
 for 24 cents flat, whether it weighs 1 pound or 11— I do not see why 
 we can not have at least as good a rate as that in this country. If 
 they are carrying that way for the English people, I thought that 
 the 8 cents provided in the Sulzer a,nd O'Gorman bill was probably 
 too high to carry packages in large amounts, and to make it 
 remunerative to the Government. But if we get the 8-cent rate we 
 feel you gentlemen ha re made a move in the right direction. 
 
 I have one point that I feel you have not perhaps cleared your 
 minds in regard to, and that you should do so early in this hearing. 
 You have brought up frequently the question that matter originating 
 on rural routes should be delivered to the rural post office point or 
 intermediate points or back on other routes at a very low rate. That 
 is provided for in these two bills, but do you realize, gentlemen, that 
 our rural route mail carriers start in many cases from merely geo- 
 graphical points and not from places of any importance commercially? 
 For instance, in Wisconsin three rural routes start from Middleton, a 
 town of 600 people, which is only 5 miles from the city of Madison, a 
 city of 30,000 people. Now, a person living on one of these three 
 rural routes in trying to deal with anybody has very little to do with 
 anybody in Middleton, for 5 miles away is Madison, his trading town, 
 and this bill would not help him at all. 
 
 The Chairman. Wouldn't you obviate the difficulty as. you see it 
 by allowing them to ship to any point on the rural route and make the 
 lowest rate for the shipment initiating and ending on the route? 
 
 Mr. Henry. You would have that the lowest ? 
 
 The Chairman. Having that the lowest rate that was given. 
 
 Mr. Henry. I do not object to that, giving that low rate, if it 
 originates on the route and ends on the route. You would not get 
 much traffic in many cases on that, and you will not help us in the way 
 we want. We want to get to some town of some little size. The 
 farmer does not want to get all of his stuff in Wisconsin — that is, the 
 farmer who lives on one of those three routes — and he does not want 
 to be forced to buy it all in Middleton, when a town 5 miles away is 
 the town he trades in. 
 
 Senator Swanson. The suggestion was to have a rate from that 
 small town, a very small rate, for there is no expense to the Govern- 
 ment whatever in carrying that. Then as they go 20 or 25 miles 
 farther have a little additional rate to that that would pay the cost 
 
PARCEL POST. 951 
 
 to the Government of bringing that from that larger town to the 
 smaller one. 
 
 Mr. Henry. And vice versa ? 
 
 Senator Swanson. And vice versa. That was the suggestion of 
 the difference in classifications, where a parcel originated. For 
 instance, you have a town of 10,000 people, which has a radius for a 
 certain section of the country, and then they have little towns all 
 around that where these rural routes come up from, and you could 
 have a small nominal rate on the rural routes where it costs the Gov- 
 ernment practically nothing, for that range is all profit. The Govern- 
 ment pays the railroads nothing for carrying it and pays nothing for 
 distributing it, because the rural carrier gets his salary just the same. 
 Now, if you want to go 50 miles altogether to where that route origi- 
 nates, you could have a little higher rate, and another classification 
 for that from the larger town to the small town. You see, to charge 
 on that rural route the same sum you would charge to cany it from 
 here to San Francisco would not be treating the people right on that 
 route. The exchange between farmers on the route and that little 
 town is a great deal, and to charge them the tremendous rate of 7, 8, 
 or 10 cents a pound would not allow them the use of the facility, 
 because it costs the Government nothing to distribute on these routes, 
 and my idea would be to have that a mere nominal sum. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean no additional cost to take up the appar- 
 ent waste now between what the carrier actually carries and what he 
 could carry with his present equipment ? 
 " Senator Swanson. It is evident the salary of the carriers will have 
 to be increased, and to enable them to pay the salary the Government 
 ought to pay the rural carriers it is evident they have to have some- 
 thing more to do. If you have a mere nominal rate on a parcel that 
 originates at a place where the route starts and have the carrier dis- 
 tribute all that and bring it back there, he will get enough on every 
 route nearly to pay his expenses that day, and there would be practi- 
 cally no expense to the Government. I do not think it would be right 
 to charge them for distributing on that rural route what you have to 
 
 fay when an article goes on a railroad, when it is all weighed up, and 
 think they ought to have a very small nominal sum on the rural 
 routes. I live on a rural route myself, and I am satisfied that the 
 carrier who was permitted to do this would bring a profit into the 
 Government for a very small nominal sum if he were permitted to 
 carry parcels that way for the department. 
 
 Mr. Henry. I agree with you as to keeping that charge small as a 
 basis. That is the beginning of things. Now, let us keep that small. 
 I can illustrate the need of that. The other day we had no butter for 
 dinner, and we have our dinner at 12 o'clock, and Jessie said, "Oh, 
 dear; we have no butter. If we had the rural mail carrier to bring 
 that, we could have gotten it at Mrs. Hall's, and you people would 
 have had some butter for dinner." Mrs. Hall lives three-quarters of 
 a mile from us, and she has very nice butter; but Jessie could not go 
 up there, because she had her washing that day and we were out in the 
 field, and we went without butter, and the Government lost a cent or 
 two by our inconvenience. 
 
 Senator Swanson. And the present rate simply destroys the effi- 
 ciency and profit to the rural carriers ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes; that is an illustration. 
 
952 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. But is it your opinion, Mr. Henry, that an ex- 
 tremely low rate on rural routes, and confined to all packages initiating 
 and ending on that route, is going to greatly increase the business on 
 the rural route ? In other words, is there much interchange between 
 the residents on single rural routes ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. There would not be among the residents themselves, 
 and on some routes where they go to a town that is small, that is 
 merely a place where the mail is handed to them, and there are no good 
 stores, the whole thing would be very small so far as the area- 1 am 
 talking about is concerned. Now, if you take our town of Walling- 
 ford, of eight or nine thousand people, we have a poor market there, 
 but right below us is the town of New Haven, 12 miles away, where 
 we have a good market. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you mean a poor market to sell in or a poor 
 market to buy in ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. It is rather a poorer market to sell than to buy in. 
 We would order a great deal of stuff from Wallingford, but we would 
 not sell there. 
 
 The Chairman. No; you haven't as large a number of purchasers; 
 that is natural. 
 
 Mr. Henry. No. We deal with the local hardware stores, and 
 some other local stores. 
 
 Senator Swanson. The town you alluded to, I suppose, would have 
 10 or 15 routes emanating from it? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Wallingford has four or five emanating from there. . 
 
 Senator Swa"nson. Those routes, if they had this privilege, would 
 accommodate all the people very much indeed, would they not? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Oh, yes. 
 
 The Chairman. In the receipt of goods, in their purchases ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. But not in the delivery of their goods, according 
 to the concrete case you have given ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes; we would buy and have sent to us through- the 
 rural centers and a good deal more sent to us from there than we 
 shipped to that point, presumably, because it is a better place for us 
 to purchase than to sell in. 
 
 Senator Swanson. It would seem to me that the farmer who raised 
 4 pounds of butter every day who wants to sell it fresh, if the rural 
 carrier would come and take that butter up and carry it to the mer- 
 chant or the consumer in the city from the little village where the 
 route radiates, would not have to go to the town himself to make that 
 trip, and the amount of business that would be engendered by that 
 route and the carrier, would be amazing and it would all be a profit 
 to the Government under the present system, and it ought to be 
 small and very small. 
 
 The Chairman. I take it that your conclusion is predicated pri- 
 marily upon the fact that that particular branch of the postal service 
 to-day is not run at its full peak. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Not at all. 
 
 The Chairman. And you do not view the whole problem from the 
 same standpoint, but only the rural routes ? 
 
 Senator Swanson. The rural routes. The rest of it is a different 
 proposition, and I think the postage on the rural route ought to be a 
 great deal less for parcels than on the general system over the country 
 
PARCEL POST. 953 
 
 Mr. Henry, I agree with you on that. Mr. Chairman, may I have 
 something put into the record there ? 
 
 The Chairman. We would be glad to have you put anything in 
 there that you wish. 
 
 Mr. Henry. Now, if you could charge what you propose here, a 
 very low rate on your rural routes 
 
 The Chairman. That is what is proposed in the O 'Gorman and 
 Sulzer bills ? l 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes; which provide this: Up to" 1 pound in weight, 1 
 cent on rural routes; up to 11 pounds, 5 cents; up to 25 pounds, 10 
 cents. Those are the rates that this bill proposes. 
 
 Senator Swanson. That is where the parcel originates and ends on 
 the rural routes ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes; "that all mail matter collected and delivered 
 within the different rural routes of the United States is hereby deter- 
 mined to be in one class, with rates door to door, between the different 
 house and places of business and the post office or post offices on each 
 route as follows: On parcels up to one twenty-fourth of a cubic foot 
 or 1 by 6 by 12 inches in dimensions and up to 1 pound in weight, 
 1 cent; on larger parcels up to one-half a cubic foot or 6 by 12 by 12 
 inches in dimensions and up to 11 pounds in weight, 5 cents. On 
 larger parcels up to 1 cubic foot, 6 by 12 by 24 cubic inches in dimen- 
 sion and up to 25 pounds in weight, 10 cents." 
 
 Senator Swanson. After you get the rate on the rural route would 
 you have any other classification and difference in charges, or would 
 you have it uniform all over the United States after you leave the 
 parcel that originates and ends on the rural routes ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Well, sir, I feel that the line of reasoning, following 
 out what you yourself have originated in this discussion, almost forces 
 us to something akin to the zone system in the solution. I heard the 
 gentlemen this morning speak on the subject, and I have the highest 
 respect for them. I understand that Mr. Cowles, who is a deep 
 student of these problems, thinks we could have one rate, but I con- 
 cur with you absolutely that we could not have the same rate on the 
 rural route we do all over the United States, and I do not believe we 
 could have something intermediary and then have something which 
 is only for the rural routes. If the Government could suppress or 
 extinguish or take over the express companies and have no competi- 
 tion, there would be a factor in this problem eliminated, but granting 
 that that can not be done, and it is a condition and not a theory that 
 confronts us, it seems to me there has to be almost three sets of charges, 
 according to service, and I make the statement with some reluctance, 
 because I dislike to go in the face of my associates here to-day with 
 me, but you have the problem to solve and it is a serious one, and I 
 want to give you all the help and encouragement I can. In the first 
 place, for heaven's sake give us something and give it to us quick. 
 We understand that the President asks you to appropriate money for 
 another investigation. Well, when they have a parcel post all over 
 the world and we have one at 16 cents a pound, we can certainly do 
 better than that. 
 
 The Chairman. You prefer governmental action to administrative 
 investigation ? 
 
 i See vol. 3, p. 664. 
 21845— vol 4—12 6 
 
954 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes, sir; we want it right off, and I want to say to you 
 again that the people of this country are so awake on this subject 
 that they do not know how to express themselves ; they read about 
 your giving advantages to the foreign countries — the President and 
 the Postmaster General have twice given foreigners advantages, at 
 the same time recommending that investigations be conducted to see 
 if we can improve conditions, and we see these rural carriers going by 
 our houses from day to day taking out from the post office about 25 
 pounds and they do not carry back over 5, when they could be doing 
 probably sixteen times the amount of business they do. Don't forget 
 that fact, that they probably carry back about 5 pounds. Now, the 
 New Haven Railroad has a great deal of trouble to get what they call 
 the back haul, in railroad terms. 
 
 The Chairman. They dislike carrying empties? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes. Now, your mail carrier who starts out of the 
 post offices with a load of possibly 25 pounds takes back what he 
 can carry almost in one hand. He carries back into the post office 
 letters and occasionally a marked newspaper and occasionally a 
 package, so that it is worse on the back haul with him than it is 
 going out. 1 
 
 The Chairman. You stated that you personally had concluded 
 that three schedules of rates would be advisable. Would you give 
 the committee the benefit of your ideas as to what rates you think 
 advisable and what you think would be the fine of demarcation of 
 your three zones, and I assume, under your statement of favoring 
 three rates, you inferentially favor the establishment of three zones 
 for the whole country ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Gentlemen, I think it is almost impossible to answer 
 that with much satisfaction to yourselves and to myself, and we 
 have got the first division right here in this bill, which is probably 
 
 Eretty nearly right if you leave it as it is. Then, if you amend the 
 ill by reaching out to some center of population larger than that, 
 say, 12 or 20 miles or farther, as some parts of the country are more 
 sparsely populated, up to 50 miles, and then a general rate, that 
 might do. 
 
 The Chairman. Let me see if I understand you, then. Your ref- 
 erence to "this bill" is the O'Gorman bill? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And your particular reference in your last remark 
 was to the rural delivery portion of the bill ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes; keep that as it is. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you then establish your minimum rate on 
 your rural delivery service, your next highest rate and zone on a 
 number of miles, say, 25 to 50, radiating from every post office, 
 and next your general zone, the whole of the United States and 
 insular possessions ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Something like that, sir. I can explain to you. We 
 can not afford to pay 8 cents a pound on shipments like butter or 
 plow points, or bolts for machinery, or small parts of machinery. 
 We could not afford to pay 8 cents a pound to the post office to have 
 those carried in many cases ; for instance, 8 cents a pound on butter, 
 strawberries, or flowers — possibly not on flowers — that rate would be 
 
 • See vol. l,p. 184. 
 
PARCEL POST. 955 
 
 too high for carrying, say, within 30 to 50 miles; it would be too 
 much; and the result would be if you charged 8 cents for all outside 
 of the rural routes you would shut us off from this advantage of the 
 local traffic, because if a man paid 8 cents to ship something from 
 San Francisco to Wallingford, Conn., that would not be very high, 
 but to ship it 10 miles from Wallingford, having to go through a 
 post office or have other handling, 8 cents would be very high and it 
 would be prohibitory. I sympathize with the committee if they 
 are struggling for something of a zone system. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Did you ever consider the proposition of the 
 division of rates by, first, the lowest, the rural route where parcels 
 originate and end on the rural route ; second, on parcels that originate 
 and end within the county — that is, a division all through the country; 
 third, with those that originate and end within the State; and then, 
 fourth, a rate for the whole country, where two States are closely 
 connected and where you could have an additional rate, where the 
 two States adjoin each other, and the parcel originated within the 
 aajoining State ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. The trouble with the political divisions is that often 
 the towns with which you wish to deal are just over the border line 
 of the State or county. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Then, that would be covered by the rate where 
 the State adjoins, which would be a little more than the rate within 
 the State, which would prevent them from carrying through four or 
 five States, or a thousand miles. 
 
 Mr. Henry. I feel the gentlemen who argue for a flat rate for 
 everything ignore two points, the economy, which the Senator has 
 pointed out, of having the rural carrier earn something, where he 
 earns nothing now in carrying his parcels along his route. That is 
 true, and a point that should not be forgotten. Then, I feel that 
 our friends who want that flat rate have not considered the compe- 
 tition of the express companies. We do not care to interfere with 
 them at this time in any way further than the Interstate Commerce 
 Commission would do it; but they are now carrying packages from 
 New York to any place in the United States — to your home, or to my 
 home, for foreign citizens for 24 cents up to 11 pounds. They will 
 step in and take all the profitable business and leave the Govern- 
 ment the unprofitable business. 
 
 The Chairman. In that connection I would like to ask you if the 
 express company would carry for the British Government a package 
 weighing 11 pounds to some inaccessible point 200 miles from the 
 Tailroad or to their nearest express office ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Not to the post office, but to their nearest express 
 office. 
 
 The Chairman. They simply serve to their own points of delivery ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. They do not deliver indiscriminately all over the 
 United States ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. To any of their own offices for 24 cents. This last 
 decision of our Government was -on December 1. The rates on 
 parcels sent from the United Kingdom to the United States are as 
 follows: Up to 3 pounds, 30 cents; up to 7 pounds, 55 cents; up to 11 
 pounds, 79 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. Where do you get that ? 
 
956 parcel tost. 
 
 Mr. Henry. From the Daily Consular and Trade Report, Decem- 
 ber 15, 1911, page 1355. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you got the full quotation there ? 
 Mr. Henry. Yes; that is the quotation; it reads as follows: 
 
 On December 1 the rates for parcels sent from the United Kingdom to the United 
 States were reduced to the following: Up to 3 pounds, 30 cents; up to 7 pounds, '55 
 cents; up to 11 pounds, 79 cents. The former rates were: Up to 3 pounds, 36 cents; 
 up to 7 pounds, 60 cents; up to 9 pounds, 84 cents; up to 11 pounds, $1.08. The 
 rate on parcels from this country to the United Kingdom remains the same, i. e., 12 
 cents a pound. 
 
 The Chairman. According to the statement made, that agreement 
 has been entered into by the Postmaster General with England by 
 and with the advice and consent of the President? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes. The English merchant to-day can send 11 
 pounds of merchandise to this country for 79 cents and have it deliv- 
 ered to any post office in the United States. The American merchant 
 must pay 16 cents and have his package limited in weight to 4 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you believe the Government can or should 
 establish a parcel post that would be competitive with freight rates ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Mr. Chairman, I believe that this Government should 
 do anything that it could to help delivery in regard to the interchange 
 of objects of every character, whether it is thought as expressed m 
 writing, telegrams and telephone messages, and in material things 
 wherever that is not now done well by corporations and the express 
 companies are not serving the people. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you believe that the Government should go 
 into the transportation business? 
 
 Mr. Henry. It is in it and we have a parcel post, we have a letter 
 post and a paper post, and we are asking you for nothing new, except 
 you make it efficient. 
 
 The Chairman. You are not asking for the establishment of any 
 new principle, but for increasing the activity of those already estab- 
 lished. Is that the idea ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Decidedly so. I have no quarrel with the express 
 companies, and I do not see how they can do it any more than they 
 can carry letters and deliver them to the farmer's homes. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you favor the Government acquiring the 
 express companies and doing the express business itself? 
 
 Mr. Henry. I think .the railroad companies should do it for the 
 present at least and that the Government should go on and complete 
 its parcel post, and I prefer to see the railway companies take over 
 the express companies as they do in England and Germany where 
 they do not have two systems. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you believe in the Government establishing 
 what in effect would be a monopoly of all material carried as parcels 
 by it? 
 
 Mr. Henry. I would prefer to see you gentlemen give the people 
 what we are struggling for now, which is less than that, and if we meet 
 with too many obstructions and these gentlemen bother us too much 
 in the future and hold us back as they are now holding us back, then 
 lets take them over if the corporations won't let the people alone and 
 keep dictating and controlling things the way they are now. In that 
 event we would have to take them over. I am not in favor of that 
 until we have given them fair notice and until we have tried to give 
 ourselves good service. 
 
PARCEL POST. 957 
 
 The Chairman. You believe in regulation before governmental 
 ownership ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes, sir; at the present time. I want it understood 
 here in the committee, that the people feel that the express companies, 
 and the railroad, companies behind them, are influencing this thing 
 all along and we would have had this from the Government if it was 
 not for the fact that we were constantly interfered with in our wants. 
 I want to say there never was such a stirring of the waters in the rural 
 districts as there is to-day; the people are fighting mad, they do not 
 care for one party or another, and you will see it in the coming election. 
 Party lines are gone and we do not know where to turn. 
 
 The Chairman. You say party lines are gone. Isn't it because of 
 the difficulty experienced by any individual who tries to reach, a line of 
 demarcation between the two parties ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes; we are coming together, but we do not know 
 what to do. I started to come down here the other day and the 
 people said to me, "You can not do anything down in Washington, 
 for things are all fixed up. What is the use of jonr going down 
 there?" 
 
 The Chairman. That rather shocks me personally, that any such 
 idea as that is prevalent even in that one community. I want to say 
 that I have put in my time here lor a good many months trying to 
 study this subject, that I have seen no evidence in any way, shape, 
 or form, on the part of the railroad or express companies that they 
 are trying to bring in influence. I can only speak for the limited 
 period I have been at the head of this committee and for the few 
 months that I have devoted in trying to secure information for the 
 benefit of the committee on this particular subject. 
 
 Mr. Henry. In talking with a merchant in Madison, Wis., he said 
 the express companies employed a man whom they sent around there 
 to circulate a petition among the merchants of Madison protesting 
 against the parcel post; he came to his store and the merchant said, 
 "I won't sign your petition; if I can not do business in opposition to 
 the catalogue houses, I will quit." And. he ga^e me to understand 
 that the matter originated there with the express companies, and that 
 feeling is all over the country. The express companies do not go out 
 with their own agents to do that kind of work, but they do it indi- 
 rectly. 
 
 The. Chairman. I haye as chajrman of- the committee a great many 
 telegrams protesting against the parcel post, similar in their tenor, 
 the natural inference being that there was an organized movement 
 to send in protests. Recently I have also received telegrams desiring 
 the committee to use its efforts in the establishment of a commission 
 to study this problem abroad. The committee are endeavoring to do 
 that themselves and I> believe they are perfectly capable of doing it. 
 
 Senator Swanson. We have the same difficulty that you are hav- 
 ing now in reaching a specific conclusion fixing a law as to how these 
 parcels should be sent, and while I have been to a very few meetings 
 of the committee, I have not been able to see anybody as yet who 
 could fix up an absolutely safe, thorough plan, with the statistics 
 showing how it would work out in results, and consequently we have 
 the same difficulties that the men who have appeared before us have, 
 had, namely, to reach a conclusion. To get the information is one of 
 the responsibilities that rests upon us, and then to move wisely and 
 
958 PARCEL POST. 
 
 well. I feel, like you, that the country people, the farmers and the 
 merchants, are entitled to use the mail facilities more fully and .success- 
 fully and popularly than they have in the past. The question is 
 how to do it fairly and justly to the Government so as to not make 
 the system break down. We have had a great deal of difficulty in 
 getting the rural-delivery system and we have had trouble to hold 
 what we have gotten. There is a conflict all the time over the exten- 
 sion of the rural-delivery routes, and the opponents of it claim, as 
 you did, that it did not pay one-third of the expenses of operation at 
 the present time, and the rest of the country is being taxed and pay- 
 ing two-thirds of that $42,000,000, which I do not believe. If.it is, 
 it is of sufficient benefit to the entire country to justify the expendi- 
 ture. Now, we have that difficulty confronting us in the Post Office 
 Committee. We want to extend these rural-delivery routes in order 
 to make them cover sections they do not cover and use them to their 
 fullest extent, and I would be glad, if anybody has a specific plan 
 worked out on a good basis from the material of the past, if they 
 would submit it to me, and it will be given most careful considera- 
 tion, and I think all members of the committee from the chairman 
 down are looking for light on this subject and will be glad to have it, 
 for it is a difficult problem to handle. 
 
 Mr. Henry. I will say, gentlemen, I will be in Washington for sev- 
 eral days, and I will keep working on the problem and if I can give 
 you any further light, faint though the light be, I shall be glad to come 
 before you. But I want to say to you, if you can not do any better 
 give to us this O'Gorman bill. The 8 cent a pound rate is our 1874 
 rate; you need not charge us more to carry a package to Washington 
 than you charge to carry that same package to the island of Sakhalin, 
 an island off the coast of Siberia. Now, give me that 8-cent rate. 
 Remember whenever carrying parcels for a foreign country there is 
 always a long haul anvway. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Would you be willing to have that as a rural- 
 route rate near your home ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. The O'Gorman bill? 
 
 Senator Swanson. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes. That is as cheap as we can ask you to make it. 
 
 Senator Swanson. The O'Gorman bill is entirely satisfactory to 
 you ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. For the rural rate, and 8 cents is satisfactory over the 
 country generally if you can not see your way clear to give us any- 
 thing better. The rural rate is laid out there for two points ; if you 
 put in a short one there, that will give us a benefit and you would 
 improve that bill. 
 
 The Chairman. From the number of years' experience and study 
 that you have devoted to the problems appertaining to government 
 and society, don't you realize that we have got to establish a minimum 
 rate that will cover the cost of the transaction ? In other words, that 
 you can make a much lower rate as your weights increase than you 
 can in your initial rate to cover the cost of collection and the cost of 
 distribution ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes, sir. Supposing you carry 1 pound for 5 cents 
 over the country and 5 pounds for 7 cents and 11 pounds for 8 cents. 
 We would be satisfied with something like that for this wider area. 
 
PARCEL POST. 959 
 
 The Chairman. Your postage would be decreasing as your weight 
 increased on the pound basis, or whatever your minimum might be, 
 but your first charge has to take into consideration the cost of the 
 transaction. 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And as I understand from your testimony before 
 the committee, you would not favor the establishment of any system 
 which would operate as a loss to the Government itself ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. The farmers do not ask that generally. We do not 
 want any favors. 
 
 The Chairman. All you want is equal opportunity and improved 
 general welfare where the governmental conditions warrant it. 
 
 Mr. Henry. We do not want to read every now and then, as we 
 have twice within the past two years, that you are carrying parcels 
 for other countries for less than you carry them for the people of this 
 country, and if such a system originates with the Postmaster General 
 and the President without any authority, then we want you to take 
 such power away from them. 
 
 Senator Swanson. You think the Post Office Department ought to 
 be self-sustaining by no profit made 1 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes, sir; we would like to have it self-sustaining. 
 
 Senator Swanson. And all the profit that does come from it ought 
 to go to increased f acuities ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes. I want you gentlemen to know that the farmers 
 of the country are generally broad-minded men and want a fair deal 
 and they are particularly irritated at this because they want it ex- 
 plained how the United States is going to carry packages to England 
 for 12 cents, when if I want to send a package from Wallingford to 
 New Haven it will cost me 16 cents. Gentlemen, we want to know 
 who did that and why he did it, and what is his reason? Does the 
 Government get more money by doing it ? Then we would like to 
 know why you raised the package limit to 1 1 pounds. You only carry 
 up to 4 pounds for me, if I want to send a package from Wallingford 
 to New Haven, but if I want to send a package to England you allow 
 me to send 11 pounds and charge me only 12 cents a pound. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any further points, Mr. Henry, that you 
 would like to make for the committee's consideration in their study of 
 this problem ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Just one point which I have praeticaUy brought up, 
 Mr. Chairman, and that is that I beg of you as a citizen that loves his 
 country, to remember that the farmers of this country and the people 
 generally are well satisfied with many things you do for us. Our post- 
 office system is the Ibest thing we have in the whole country, and our 
 free educational system is its equal probably. Now, the inequality 
 and unreasonableness of the present system is unbearable, and we 
 urge you not to adjourn this session of Congress without giving us 
 something which is the superior of the miserable system we have at 
 present; and you can do it. Even if you do not give us a perfected bill, 
 give us something more reasonable than you are giving us, and do not 
 vote any money for any committees to go to Europe and study her 
 systems. We are strong enough and reasonable enough, and hope to 
 be able to do something with all the written knowledge we can get 
 from Europe, and which the experience of others and our own needs 
 
960 PARCEL POST. 
 
 and necessities and good judgment to carry us through, and give us 
 something at this session and let us clear this incubus out of the way 
 and go on to other problems of betterment to our people. Do not 
 haggle and quarrel over this thing any longer. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you not think that the committee has demon- 
 strated their desire to give you the relief by holding hearings and de- 
 voting a great deal of time to the investigation of the subject ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Gentlemen, my friends who are with me from Con- 
 necticut and others to-day have spoken in a most appreciable way 
 of their reception here, and I have heard complimentary things from 
 other sources. I am sure that if the others Members of Congress 
 could hear these things and could join you with the same spirit that 
 you seem to be using in the investigation of this problem, that we 
 will have what we are seeking for now. 
 
 The Chairman. What the committee is seeking for is to get all 
 possible information and then make a study of the problem itself. 
 Then it will work out a bill that we believe is desirable and satis- 
 factory, and that we can advocate from eveiy viewpoint and get 
 behind it. 
 
 Mr. Henry. Do not take that side too seriously. If we have 
 lived under this thing, we can live under something 50 per cent better; 
 you can not draw a bill that is not an improvement on the present 
 situation. 
 
 The Chairman. But would you not prefer that we work out a bill 
 that was a decided improvement rather than to jump haphazard at 
 it and say we will increase the weight so much and decrease the 
 postage so much a pound ? We are making the same study of this 
 that you would make in any business operation. It is a business 
 proposition. We have to study the business viewpoint, and you 
 concur in the adoption of that plan, as I understand it ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes, sir, Senator, and God bless you in this work, 
 but give us something. We do no want any more investigating 
 committees going over to Europe. If we hear of that from you 
 people here in Congress, I do not know what we will do. We will be 
 wild. We do not want any more commissions. 
 
 The Chairman. You believe that the legislation of this country 
 should be done by the legislative branch of the Government, do 
 you'' 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. I concur with you. 
 
 Mr. Henry. I trust that I have not said anything offensive here. 
 I tried to speak plainly and honestly, and I thought this the best way 
 to present the matter. 
 
 The Chairman. We are greatly obliged to you, Mr. Henry. 
 
 (For additional testimony of Mr. Henry, see pp. 969 and 970, and 
 pp. 1079-1083.) " 
 
TESTIMONY OF PROF. T. C. ATKESON, SECRETARY OF THE 
 LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE, NATIONAL GRANGE, MORGAN- 
 TOWN, W. VA. 
 
 The witness was first duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age, residence, and occu- 
 pation ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Mr. Chairman, let me, in order that we can save 
 covering too much ground, just read a little written statement. I 
 have dictated to my stenographer a page or two of matter and per- 
 haps it may facilitate what i have to say and save your time if I 
 should read it, but you may interrupt me at any point and this will 
 be the basis for any questions that you may care to ask. 
 
 The Chairman. That is agreeable to the committee, but in order 
 that we may show the information in the hearing, will you kindly give 
 your residence, age, occupation, and any official position that you 
 may hold? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. That' all appears in the paper. However, I am per- 
 fectly willing to do that. I am a farmer by profession and by prac- 
 tice, having been reared on a farm and having spent all my days on 
 the farm except the last few years, when I have been connected with 
 our State Agricultural College. I am not quite in the same class with 
 Dr. Henry, and have not lived quite as long, but I have had somewhat 
 the same experience. I was for 14 years dean of the College of Agri- 
 culture of West Virginia, and I am here, as appears in my statement, 
 as a member of the National Grange legislative committee. Another 
 member of that committee is also present. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, Professor, if you will kindly go on with your 
 statement; we want to get into the hearings information as to the 
 capacity in which you appear before the committee. 
 
 Mr. Atkeson (reading) : 
 
 Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I want to thank you for the oppor- 
 tunity you have given me to present the farmers' side of the much vexed and vexing 
 question of parcel post. 
 
 Again, I want to thank you, not for myself alone, but on behalf of the National 
 Grange of the Patrons of Husbandry, whose representative I am as one of a committee 
 of three appointed at the last session of the National Grange held in Columbus, Ohio, 
 last Npvember. 
 
 In order that we may have a fair understanding, I want to say for our grange legis- 
 lative committee that "we are in no sense lobbyists, as that term is generally under- 
 stood, neither do we represent any special privilege or selfish interest, but we are 
 appointed in the interest of good government, and it is our duty to study and inves- 
 tigate as best we can such economic and sociological questions as may come up for 
 legislation, and in a dignified and respectful manner present to our Senators and Con- 
 gressmen the farmer's viewpoint and best interest'upon such questions as may be under 
 consideration. The National Grange may have made a poor selection, but it is with 
 its. credentials that we appear here to-day to present as best we can what the farmers 
 of the United States are thinking about the parcel-post question. 
 
 I may say for myself that I was born on a farm, reared on a farm, and have been a 
 farmer all my life, so I start out with a pretty definite personal knowledge of at least 
 one farmer. 
 
 Then again, I have been in most of the States of the Union, and have given such 
 study as f could to the farmer problems of all these States, and I feel safe in saying that 
 I have some expert knowledge of what the farmers of this country want. 
 
 961 
 
962 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 The grange is a nonpartisan farmers' organization, and the farmers sometimes get 
 things a little slow — on a freight train, as it were — but slowly they are getting it through 
 their heads that this parcel-post business is not a partisan question, and that the 
 strongest arguments against it come from certain special privilege interests that are 
 making large profits while they hold up and fleece the citizenship of the whole country. 
 
 Practically every farmer in this country and a large majority of the urban population 
 believe that this is true. They believe that an inefficient express service is costing 
 the people at least three times as much as it ought, and this belief is not founded on in- 
 sufficient evidence. Our farmers are the safest, sanest students of economic questions 
 of any class of our voting citizenship, and their deliberate convictions are entitled to 
 great consideration. 
 
 I have gone over figures, reports, and statistics bearing upon the parcel-post question 
 until I am nauseated with them, and I feel quite sure this committee is tired of them, 
 therefore I shall indulge in them as little as possible. 
 
 The farmers of this country believe the Government should have a monopoly of the 
 express business, and the argument upon which that belief is based is unanswerable, 
 as has been shown over and over again by the figures and statistics brought out in these 
 hearings, speeches of Members of Congress, and in the reports of the Post Office Depart- 
 ment and the Interstate Commerce Commission, which are so easily available that I 
 deem it unnecessary to present them now. 
 
 Much has been said in recent years about the high cost of living. It is not likely the 
 cost of production will ever be less in this country, and it is equally certain that the 
 consumer pays twice as much for what he buys as he should. With a properly adjusted 
 parcel post, on many products of the farm a large part of the cost of distribution 
 could be eliminated and the certainty of delivery very much increased. The farmer 
 could deal directly with the consumer, and know he was getting all the consumer paid 
 less the postal cost, which he would know was costing everyone who used it exactly 
 the same price for the same service, which is far from being the fact now. 
 
 The farmers have made up their minds that they are entitled to a reasonable and fair 
 parcel-post system, and they are going to stick to it and stick to Congress until they 
 get it. It may be a long time coming, but it has got to come. 
 
 Maybe they do not know what is good for them, but they are like the frogs in the 
 fable that prayed to Jupiter to send them a king. Wise old Jupiter kneV they didn't 
 need a king, as some wise Senators tell us we don't know what is good for us in this 
 parcel-post matter; but, good or bad for us, we are going to keep on praying to Jupiter 
 Congress until we get it, and the sooner you give it to us the longer will you be allowed 
 to rule over us. 
 
 The farmers want nothing short of a, general unlimited parcel post, except such 
 limitation as a fair consideration for economic conditions and rate adjustment may 
 limit it. 
 
 Now, as to just what form parcel-post legislation should take, I am probably not 
 expert enough to say, but a score or more of bills have been introduced in Congress, 
 all of which contain some admirable features. I have read and tried to digest all of 
 them, with considerable weariness; but this I know, that the people have waited so 
 long that they will be gratified at any kind of parcel-post legislation, but not satis- 
 fied with anything short of the widest possible application of the principle. 
 
 I make that as a general statement, and I should be glad to answer 
 any questions on any phase of it that the committee may desire to 
 ask. 
 
 The Chairman. Did I understand you to say that the consumer 
 to-day pays twice what he should for what he purchases ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. My statement was that an inefficient express serv- 
 ice, was costing the people three times what it ought to. 
 
 The Chairman. But I thought in your statement you made the 
 remark that the consumer to-day paid twice what he should ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Yes; I made that statement. 
 
 The Chairman. Who gets the benefit of that dual price that the' 
 consumer pays, according to your statement ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. It involves a good many economical phases, but it 
 is the cost of distribution — the cost between the producer and the, 
 consumer. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you elaborate a little for the benefit of 
 the committee on that statement, which without explanation might 
 
PARCEL POST. 963 
 
 be misunderstood — that is, the statement that the consumer to-day 
 pays twice what he should for the article that he consumes — and state 
 upon what reasoning you predicate such an assertion 1 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. In many cases he pays 10 or 15 times as much as 
 he should. Now, to illustrate, I heard a gentleman from New York — 
 I know him personally and know his statement was true — before a 
 Senate committee in connection with the Canadian reciprocity propo- 
 sition, give an illustration in connection with what is known as 
 Boston head lettuce, which is sold all over the country. He was a 
 New York grower of head lettuce, and stated that his contract with 
 a Philadelphia house that was handling that farm product was at 
 1\ cents per head, and that the crate or thing that contained a cer- 
 tain number of heads — he delivers so many, but I do not remember 
 the number — cost him 15 cents, several hundred heads, and not a 
 single head of that lettuce was sold to the consumer in Philadelphia 
 for less than 10 cents or 15 cents a head, and he got 1J cents a head. 
 
 The Chairman. Would it not be a clearer statement to say that 
 the producer himself received half of the price that the consumer paid 
 for the article ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. In substance that was what I said; that the con- 
 sumer paid twice as much as he ought, that is, twice as much as the 
 producer gets. 
 
 The Chairman. I can not criticize that statement, because I 
 assume that in many cases he does pay many times as much as the 
 original producer receives for his goods. 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. There is no question about that. 
 
 The Chairman. But you believe, in speaking of the general 
 merchandise business of the country, the general articles of wearing 
 apparel and food products and everything of that kind, that the 
 consumer pays twice as much as the original producer himself receives ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Well, when you speak about general merchandise, 
 it has passed through a great many hands in the process of manu- 
 facture, etc., such as woolen goods. 
 
 The Chairman. What would be your remedy for this apparent 
 evil, which from your viewpoint I assume you think exists as based 
 upon the statement that the consumer pays twice as much as he 
 should? How are you going to remedy that if the condition does 
 exist ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. I do not think anyone will dispute that it does 
 exist, from Uncle Jim Wilson down and up. 
 
 The Chairman. What, in your opinion, is the remedy ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. There are a number of remedies and it involves a 
 good many economical problems. The parcel post is one remedy. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, a better and more efficient and cheaper 
 method of transportation ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. A more efficient method of transportation and dis- 
 tribution; more direct distribution. 
 
 The Chairman. But do you think that any parcel post would 
 change materially the conditions which you say exist here ? Trans- 
 portation is not the sole factor of the cost that the consumer has to 
 pay. That is only one of the factors. 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. I am surprised that all the city people who are 
 making so much complaint of the high cost of living are not in favor 
 of the parcel post. 
 
964 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 The Chairman. As an increased transportation facility? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. As a means of receiving directly from the producer, 
 with a uniform cost between the producer and the consumer. Now 
 let me give you another illustration. Last summer I was at our 
 State capital and in the office of the secretary of the board of agri- 
 culture. He has a lady stenographer there. She told about an old 
 friend of hers in the suburbs of Charleston who had raised a little 
 surplus of farming products. It was head lettuce in this particular 
 case again. She called her local merchant over the telephone and 
 asked him if he did not want to buy some head lettuce, and his 
 answer was that he did. She wanted to know what he would pay for 
 it, and he answered promptly that he would; pay 25 cents for a half 
 bushel — that is, at the rate of 50 cents a bushel. She packed her 
 head lettuce in a basket and sent it to the merchant of her little village 
 and got back a quarter's worth of some commodity from his store. 
 In a very short while one of her neighbor ladies came in to get some 
 of this surplus of head lettuce. She told her she had sent it to the 
 merchant. The neighbor then called the merchant and asked him if 
 he had some head lettuce and he answered that he had some of the 
 very finest that he had just received. She wanted to know how 
 much it was worth per head, and he said 10 cents. Now, the good 
 woman that had sent it to the merchant had counted those heads, 
 and there were 15, and this merchant was selling them at $1.50. 
 
 The Chairman. For which he had just paid a quarter? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Yes; that was 600 per cent profit. Now, if a man 
 living back in the country 10 or 15 miles should raise head lettuce 
 and could have direct transportation by parcel post, he could 
 deliver it to that woman at a few cents per pound. and cut off that 
 profit to the merchant. 
 
 The Chairman. How many heads did the friend that telephoned 
 to the merchant buy at 10 cents a head ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Well, she did not buy any. She did not send down 
 to get it. I am just stating the result of the investigation. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose that merchant had still continued to ask 
 10 cents a head for the lettuce and made no salesi; he would.be out 
 25 cents on his original investment, would he not ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. That was the cupidity of the individual? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Those are personal equations we can not change 
 by legislation. 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. The parcel post would bring the consumer in direct 
 communication with the producer on a uniform basis, I do not know : 
 how generally the fact is, but, I do know it exists in one, little town in 
 my own State, that the local merchant and all. the distributing factors 
 are in some kind, of a combination. We can call over the phone any 
 merchant in our little town, and there are, a, number of them, I mean 
 a grocery merchant, and they all. give us the same price on the same 
 commodity the same day, whether it is a, dozen, eggs or a pound of 
 butter, or whatever it might be. 
 
 The Chairman. How large a town is that ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Twelve thousand, about. 
 
 The Chairman. And you get the same price from every merchant 
 in the town ? 
 
PARCEL POST. 965 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Yes, sir.. 
 
 The Chairman. And prices change from day to day, do they 1 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Slightly, but not very greatly. 
 
 The Chairman. So that the natural inference is that there is an 
 agreement in that particular community according to the conditions 
 as you have met with them, and it tjould not be a coincidence; it 
 must have been an agreement ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. They have a local grocery merchants' association. 
 There is no secret about that; they do not dispute it. The man in 
 the country should be able to reach the consumer without having to 
 deal through these country merchants. They fix the price of the 
 commodity they buy from the country people, and they fix the price 
 that they sell to the consumer. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, if you had an increased transportation 
 facility, you would eliminate the middle man and reach the consumer 
 direct; is that your theory? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. You would either eliminate him or bring him within 
 a reasonable compensation for the service he renders. 
 
 The Chairman. You would inject a new element of competition in 
 his operations ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. In other words, the country merchants' organization 
 would not stand between the producer and the consumer with the 
 doors shut in both directions. That is what he does now. 
 
 Senator Swanson. In your consideration of the parcel-post 
 question, have you reached any conclusion as to whether it ought to 
 be a uniform rate for all charges under all conditions, or should there 
 be some classifications ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Well, I am inclined to think we ought to have at 
 least two rates, one including the business done through the rural 
 route delivery, because that brings at the lowest possible price the 
 country producer 10 or 15 miles out in contact with the consumer, 
 and the lower that rate the better it will be both for the producer and 
 the consumer. The fact is that the town people are as much interested 
 in that problem, and I have heard your questions on the subject asked 
 Dr. Henry, as the countrymen or the farmers. If you put it at 8 
 cents a pound, as was said here a while ago, you could not go around 
 to local merchants or to grocerymen. You must put the rate so low 
 that the producer can go and deliver or have delivered for him to the 
 consumer at a price that cuts out the exorbitant prices charged by 
 the combining factors between the producer and the consumer. I 
 do not mean to convey the idea that it is the merchant wholly, 
 because there are other factors. 
 
 Senator Swanson. You think that the charge on the rural routes 
 should be smaller than any other charges where it originates and ends 
 on the rural route ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Do you believe in any other classification, so 
 far as the distance, State, or other factors are concerned, or have you 
 given it any consideration or study ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. I have gone over the zone matter a good deal and I 
 have done some figuring on that. The average haul, from the best 
 information I can get, for mail matter is probably between 300 and 
 400 miles. Now, when a train starts from New York to San Fran- 
 cisco, it is going through and it is going to take on mail at one sta- 
 
966 PARCEL. POST. 
 
 tion and put it off at the next station. The average haul for all the 
 mail handled by that train will probably not exceed 400 miles; that 
 is based on information, but not positive information. Now, when 
 we fix a zone system and make it, say, over 400 miles in distance, it 
 amounts pretty nearly to the same thing, because if your zone sys- 
 tem included simply a matter of distance, then it would be 400 miles in 
 distance. If your zone was a true zone, lines drawn north and south 
 through the country, with mail carried from east to west, when it 
 crossed the line and picked up mail within a mile or two of the line on 
 one side and carried it to a mile or two on the other side it would be 
 a very short haul on a 400-mile basis. That is, in the long run 
 the average is about the same. Now, this train starts across the 
 country and it handles all the short hauls as well as all the long hauls. 
 The train is going, taking on and putting off freight or mail at every 
 station and the average will not exceed 400 miles probably. I do 
 not see much to be gained by the zone system, unless your zone means 
 a definite number of miles. The express companies have some such 
 arrangement. They charge more for a long haul than a short one. 
 Now, it has been stated here before the committee since I have been 
 here, and I have heard it stated before, that the express companies 
 would handle the short-haul stuff and the United States mail handle 
 the long-haul stuff, probably at a loss. I make the statement that the 
 farmers of this country believe that the Government should handle 
 all the express business of the country, up to a certain weight, at least. 
 
 Senator Swanson. What would be your weight ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Oh, I do not know. I am inclined to think you 
 could go up in the tons on the railroads. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Then, as you understand the sentiment among 
 the farmers in the country, it is favorable to governmental operation 
 of the transportation of the country ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. No; I do not care to go into a discussion of that 
 question. 
 
 Senator Swanson. I simply want to get the information for the 
 benefit of the committee. 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Up to the point of handling all express stuff. Now, 
 the express rates will always be higher than the freight rates. Heavy 
 commodities, like steam engines and stone and brick and iron and 
 things of that kind, are always and always will be handled more 
 cheaply by freight, because the question of time does not enter in 
 very much. In other words, I might ask the question, Why do not 
 the express companies now handle all the goods of the country? 
 That is, I would have the Government handle all the express business 
 that is now handled by the express companies of the country. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Suppose the committee did not see proper to 
 go that far; what would be your suggestion and plan as to the charges 
 for the Government as a competitor to the express companies in its 
 parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Judging from the dividends that have been declared 
 by the express companies, they are carrying the express packages of- 
 the country at a very considerable profit, and the Government would 
 have to carry express packages at so low a rate that it would cut out 
 their profit, or the express companies would still carry a part of the 
 business. However, they would always be a competitor of the Gov- 
 ernment down to where profit ceases. 
 
PARCEL POST. 967 
 
 Senator Swanson. The question that I wanted to, get your opinion 
 on was this: If the Government did not take a monopoly of the 
 express business and we desired to prevent the express companies 
 from competing with the Government in parcel post and taking the 
 short hauls that are profitable, if you had a uniform rate, and un- 
 loading on the Government the long hauls, which at a uniform rate 
 would be unprofitable, because it is the average that makes it profit- 
 able, what system would you devise to prevent that advantage being 
 taken of the Government ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. The easiest way to prevent it is to do what it has 
 done with the letters and other classes of mail; simply take a monop- 
 oly. As a choice between an express and a private monopoly and a 
 Government monopoly, I am favorable to a Government monopoly. 
 
 Senator Swanson. But if we do not go into the express business, 
 how could we simply by a law enter as a competitor against them ( 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. You would have to simply charge less than they 
 charge. , 
 
 Senator Swanson. Less for the short hauls than they charge for 
 the short hauls and less foi> the long hauls than they charge ? * 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Would that necessarily compel a classification 
 on our part such as they have, or could we have a uniform rate ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. I think we could have a uniform rate, when we take 
 the country generally. I think we should have a much lower rate 
 for the rural route and possibly for the very short hauls, sa}^ 25 miles. 
 
 The Chairman. From every post office ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. From any post office or from every post office, say, 
 25 miles. This is a detail that somebody would have to work out. 
 , There should be an exceedingly low rate for 10, 15, or 20 miles. 
 Everybody in every city within a radius of that 25 miles would 
 enjoy that rate and be in direct communication with the producers 
 within the 25 miles, and you could give an exceedingly low rate. 
 The city people, if they know what is best for them, would all favor 
 a parcel post on some such basis. Then beyond that give a general 
 parcel-post rate at the lowest figure that will cover costs. 
 
 Senator Swanson. You would believe, then, in three classifica- 
 tions ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Three classifications, one on the rural route, or if 
 you made a very short classification at a very low rate, why not say 
 within 25 miles of any post office on any kind of a route ? The train 
 coming in from 25 miles distant can bring the goods in at that lower 
 rate. There is not much necessity for the three classifications. You 
 could either make two classifications, one for the rural route as the 
 unit and the other the general parcel post, or make the short-haul 
 classification at the lowest possible rate. Twenty-five miles, per- 
 haps, is far enough from any post office, and I see no necessity for 
 limiting that to the rural route. Perhaps the railroads or the trol- 
 leys could bring the goods cheaper than the rural carrier could. 
 
 Senator Swanson. The only additional element of cost when it 
 goes on the railroad is that we would have to pay them so much 
 when the weighings are made for transporting it over the railroads; 
 while^with a rural route you pay nothing except the salary of the 
 carrier. 
 
968 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Up to their capacity and with such an equipment 
 as they have now it would not cost the Government anything. That 
 is, for additional transportation. Possibly three classifications would 
 solve the problem better than two, because of the fact that you 
 would have to pay the railroad companies for hauling it in. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think that that generally represents the 
 contention of the people in the Granges of the entire country? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Do you mean the demand for a parcel post or this 
 classification ? 
 
 The Chairman. This classification. 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. I do not know that they have generally considered 
 that very much. 
 
 The Chairman. In the discussions that you have had in the Grange 
 meetings that you have attended, is it your opinion that that idea 
 of the three zones, a rural route and then the second, the zone of the 
 25-mile radius from every post office and then the general zone for 
 the whole country, would be pretty generally acceptable ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. I think I have the action of the last National 
 Grange here. Here is a quotation from the proceedings of the last 
 National Grange at Columbus, Ohio, last November: 
 
 Your committee is inclined to feel that the resolution offered to this body presents 
 the most effective position this association can take on the parcel-post question, and 
 we therefore recommend the indorsement of the resolution, which is as follow: 
 
 "Resolved, That in the opinion of the National Grange in forty-fifth annual session 
 assembled, the system of postal express as prepared by Congressman Lewis, of Mary- 
 land, offers a thorough solution of the parcel-post measure, and that we hereby indorse 
 the same and urge its passage." 
 
 This indorsement is not intended that we shall abandon the position formerly 
 taken by the National Grange on the parcel post. If we take this attitude by a 
 vote at this time, we are holding up such a system as the Lewis bill contemplates as 
 an ideal to be striven for and ultimately reached, but by no means wholly abandon 
 our efforts to secure any advanced steps toward an effective parcel-post beginning 
 which may be not only valuable in itself but a stepping stone toward the final accom- 
 plishment of a widespread and adequate postal express system which would absorb 
 all the express companies and take their work entirely over under Government direc- 
 tion and control. We therefore here and now reaffirm a position heretofore con- 
 tinuously taken by the National Grange in favor of parcel-post legislation, and insist 
 that our legislative committee use every means at their command in the name of 
 and in behalf of the National Grange to secure such legislation. 
 
 In answer to that Brother Hull and I are here to-day. 
 
 Senator SwaNson. Personally you think that those three, classifica- 
 tions would be agreeable to the people that you represent ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. The fact of the matter is a question like that was 
 put to me by Mr. Week's committee last year. I simply said that 
 the farmers of this country would be gratified by any advanced step, 
 but not satisfied with anything short of the control of the express 
 business. We would, however, be greatly gratified. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Let me ask you another question. You would 
 rather have a parcel post on the rural routes and then have 25, 50, 
 or 75 miles as a second classification and get it quickly than to have 
 a committed appointed to investigate it and get up a general bill? Is 
 that correct. 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Well, we would rather have you make mistakes 
 than to do nothing. 
 
 The Chairman. You want to see the train start 1 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. We have been thrashing out this proposition in the 
 National Grange for 30 years. We know that we want a parcel 
 
PARCEL POST. 969 
 
 post. We know that some things are going on in the country that 
 we can not account for. Some rather remarkable things occur. I 
 quoted before Mr. Week's committee two years ago what was sup- 
 posed to have been Mr. Wanamaker's statement when he was Post- 
 master General — you are all familiar Math it — and he wanted to know 
 if I said that I thought the express companies in this country had 
 any influence on that committee or on the Members of Congress. 
 That I am going to repeat as nearly as I can remember it. We do 
 not believe that they had any direct influence. 
 
 No man living has a higher regard or higher respect for the national 
 character of our Representatives. I do not mean that they are all 
 entirely like Csesar's wife, but they represent the highest possible 
 type of American citizenship, and I think our people believe in their 
 Representatives, but they can not quite account for the way Congress 
 hesitates to do something; and I will venture to say you can start 
 out in the country among the most intelligent class of our farmers, 
 and you need not study all the country, but you can even go to some 
 of the towns — I am certain it is true of the people in the country — and 
 you can ask the first thousand that you meet and they will ail know 
 something about parcel post, and nine hundred and ninety-nine of 
 them will unhesitatingly give you a pretty clear definition as to what 
 they want and whythey want it. Theymeaiito have it sooner or later. 
 Nine hundred and ninety -nine out of every thousand intelligent men 
 in this country will answer you favorably to this proposition. Now, 
 with regard to the appointment of a commission; we know by long 
 experience that the appointment of a commission is more often a 
 means of defeating a measure or securing delay than it is of doing 
 something. The farmers, as well as the other people of this country, 
 are suspicious of commissions. 
 
 The Chairman. They feel that Congress is the legislative branch of 
 the Government and it should do its duty ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. That is right, and personally, while I do not care a 
 continental what they do with the Tariff Commission's report, the 
 responsibility is right up to Congress. 
 
 Mr. Henry. If I may interrupt, Mr. Chairman, I would like to say 
 here, in illustration of the points brought out by Dr. Atkeson of the desire 
 of the people for the Government to take over the express companies, 
 that I think their ideas are fostered and advanced largely by irrita- 
 tion. They have so many troubles with the express companies. 
 They feel that the charges of the express companies are outrageous, 
 and they are doing this not because they have come to the general 
 idea of Government ownership, but they want relief, and they are 
 doing it with a feeling of hitting back and with the idea that it will 
 do the express companies injury. It is out of revenge. 1 
 
 The Chairman. In that connection, if the Government through the 
 Interstate Commerce Commission regulated the express companies 
 .so as to give a better service at a cheaper rate than now enjoyed, 
 "that irritation would be eliminated in a large measure, would it not ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes, sir; in some measure. 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. The people are getting a little suspicious of regula- 
 tion also— that is, they take what regulation they can get, but they 
 are suspicious that it will not always regulate. 
 
 1 Previous testimony of Mr. Henry, on pp. 946 to 960. Later testimony on pp. 1079 to 1083. 
 21845— vol 4—12 7 
 
970 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Henry. In Wisconsin our public utilities commission is giving 
 the people a great deal of satisfaction, and a commission in Con- 
 necticut, with which Mr. J. H. Hale is connected, is also helping. The 
 regulation by these commissions is going to allay much reeling. It 
 is helping immensely. I do not say that it is a permanent relief, but 
 it is helping us immensely. 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. I know that what Senator Bourne said about not 
 seeing the express people and railroad people around here trying to 
 defeat parcel post is true. They are behind somebody else. I can 
 establish beyond any question that the express companies of this 
 country are not idle and are not looking on this fight with indiffer- 
 ence. 
 
 The Chairman. I wish you would establish that. 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Ordinary, human gumption settles it. 
 
 The Chairman. No; you say you can establish that fact beyond 
 any question. I would like to have the establishment of it. 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. I would have to bring some witnesses, but I have 
 been credibly informed by personal friends who are members of two 
 associations — the National Hardware Association and the Retail 
 Merchants' Association — and I have this from the inside ; but I would 
 have to bring my witnesses here to show that the express companies 
 are furnishing those people all the money they want for promotion 
 purposes in opposition to this business. 
 
 The Chairman. Are these from officers of these associations that 
 you have named, so that they are in a position to know absolutely the 
 statements they have made? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. I think so. I feel perfectly sure about it. 
 
 The Chairman. Are these witnesses here ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. No; they are not here, but I feel perfectly sure that 
 the express companies' people are not indifferent to this matter. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you get these witnesses to appear before the 
 committee ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. I do not know. It was given to me in confidence. 
 I can interview them. 
 
 The Chairman. I wish you would, and submit to me the names. 1 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Now, I do not believe that it will hurt the local mer- 
 chants. I think they have been more scared than hurt, and I think 
 they are beginning to realize that they have been used to get some- 
 body else's chestnuts out of the fire in a certain measure. They have 
 been thoroughly organized and they have communicated with Con- 
 gressmen. I said to Congressman Sturgess when he was in Congress 
 during the last session, in a private itnerview, that I wished he would 
 support the parcel- post proposition. In reply he said that every 
 local merchant in his district, the second congressional district of the 
 State of West Virginia, I think he said every one, had written him 
 opposing the parcel post, and that he had not had a half dozen 
 letters from the farmers in the district, and that these local merchants 
 were centers of influence all over his district; that they got busy at 
 convention times and election times and he had to pay attention to 
 those local merchants. 
 
 The Chairman. Where were the farmers at election times ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. At election time they elected Mr. Sturgess's -suc- 
 cessor to Congress by about 6,000 majority, and Mr. Sturgess had 
 
 1 Not jet received. 
 
PARCEL POST. 971 
 
 nore than 3,000 the year before. Mr. Sturgess, of course, is a most 
 jlegantgentleman, and I do not mean to reflect in any way upon him. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you not think that a Representative ought to 
 represent his constituents and their desires ? 
 , Mr. Atkeson. Undoubtedly. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, if there were only six farmers who wrote him 
 an this subject from his district, I think the farmers were derelict and 
 that they should be criticized. 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. That is exactly why Mr. Hull and I are here repre- 
 senting the .'National Grange, whose membership constitutes more 
 than a half million people, who pay their dues regularly, and nearly 
 a million more farmers m this country. 
 
 Mr. Hull and I are here representing fairly and squarely at least a 
 million farmers in their organized capacity, and they think they 
 know they want the parcel post, and they think they know they are 
 going to get it. 
 
 The Chairman. They will either get it through Congress or at the 
 ballot box? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. They will get it through Congress, or they will 
 invite somebody to come here to vote for it. That is not a threat, 
 but that is said in good nature. That is the sentiment of the country 
 people, that there is absolutely no reason why they should not have 
 some concession in connection with the parcel post. Just how far 
 it should go should be worked out. 
 
 , , Senator Swanson. How far, on an average, do you suppose that the 
 products of the farm would use the Post Office Department through 
 the parcel post, if it were allowed ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. No living man can tell that, Senator. Some commod- 
 ities never would use it. No man would ship his wheat crop or his 
 corn crop or his cattle. He might send some chickens. He certainly 
 would send eggs, butter, etc. 
 
 Senator Swanson. How far do you think those generally go ? My 
 idea is this : I think the products of the farm should be given cheaper 
 and better and quicker transportation. Now, I would like to know 
 what would be a good, fair distance that would be available to the 
 farmer to use this parcel post to get the products of the farm out to 
 the consumer ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Twenty-five or fifty miles. The milk producers are 
 sending milk a hundred miles. 
 
 . Senator Swanson. If a parcel post were given the farmers for 25 or 
 50 miles at a low enough rates, it would be sufficient for the farmers 
 to utilize it to get what they would use a parcel post for through the 
 mails ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. I have had some experience with that, Senator. I 
 have lived in the country, and I am running a farm in the country. 
 Nine months in the year I am paying 10 cents a quart for milk, with 
 other prices corresponding. Now, if we had a rural parcel post, say, 
 reaching 25 miles into the country — and concrete cases will meet a 
 world of argument — those peole living 10, 15, or 20 miles back would 
 come into town and contract for butter, eggs, and garden produce and 
 send it to me every day by the Post Office Department through the 
 rural route. If it were brought to the central office, I would go and 
 get it, but he could even deliver it to my house at some price. Now, 
 the producer would furnish it directly to the consumer if the price 
 
972 PAECEk POST. 
 
 were low enough to induce him to do that. It is a mere matter of cost, 
 At 8 cents he would not. You can not at 8 cents a pound get a dozer 
 eggs shipped. 
 
 Senator Swanson. You see when you make a uniform rate for 
 the entire country you make it for the farm products that you do 
 not ship over 25 miles for the market; and, consequently, I was try- 
 ing to ascertain as to what you think the distance would be that would 
 naturally cover what the farmers would send out and sell off theii 
 farms through the parcel post, if it were adopted ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. I think they would largely go as far as 25 miles, and 
 in the case of large cities like New York and Washington, 50 miles, 
 and even a hundred miles, would not be too far. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Twenty-five or fifty miles would cover all cases? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Yes. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Would the farmers rather have a parcel post 
 at a low rate that would cover what they would sell off their farms at 
 a reasonable rate, than to have a uniform rate that would cover it 
 entirely ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. They want it covered, the whole country by a general 
 parcel post. Then these other propositions certainly supplement 
 the general proposition splendidly. I understand that the rate for 
 carrying a package from Washington to San Francisco would cost too 
 much to be of any great value to the man living 10, 15, or 20 miles 
 from Washington. You want to get the city within reach of the 
 country people; that is, within a reasonable distance; and it seems to 
 me that three propositions, that is, three units of charge might be 
 introduced to good advantage. 
 
 Senator Swanson. And the one that the farmers are most interested 
 in is the one that will enable them to get their produce into the mar- 
 kets ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Now, this argument has been made: That it would 
 ruin the country merchants, that the purchaser would go to Chicago 
 or New York and buy from the catalogue houses if he had a low 
 enough general parcel-post rate. I do not know how much it would 
 affect the local merchant. I do not believe it would affect him very 
 seriously, because if he could deliver these goods directly he ought to 
 be able to deliver them as cheaply as any city establishment payirig 
 high wages and high insurance and high tax and high rent and all 
 the incident charges. He could deliver directly to his consumers 
 around about, and they could order by telephone as we do in Morgan- 
 town, where they send the goods around the square to us. I doubt 
 whether it would hurt the local merchant at all. My own best judg- 
 ment is that it would help him, because if it made the country pros- 
 perous and the people stay out there he would be benefited, and we 
 hear a great deal about "back to the farm," all of which is nonsense. 
 A rural parcel post will do a great deal to make it both attractive and 
 
 Erofitabie. If so many people are moving to the towns, you must 
 ring about conditions that Will induce the people that are in the coun- 
 try to stay there or those that are in the town to move out there. 
 Now, you enlarge the city advantages by bringing that producer 
 25 or 50 miles out and the consumer as closely together as possible 
 and every citizen in this country is interested in that problem except 
 the distributing agents themselves. I see no reason why the interests 
 
PARCEL POST. 973 
 
 sf the great mass of our country and city people — and this is not 
 entirely a country problem, it is a city problem as well — I see no 
 reason why they should be held up by this Government, I will say 10 
 men for the benefit of one who is interested in the distributing 
 problem. 
 
 The Chairman. You believe that the greatest good to the greatest 
 number should be the sole desideratum in all legislation? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Undoubtedly. 
 
 The Chairman. And you would not expect for the farmers of the 
 country any special privilege that would be a detriment to the rest 
 of the country ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. None whatever. 
 
 The Chairman. You believe that the only interests to which this 
 would be detrimental would be the express companies ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. That is it, practically. Now, then, just one other 
 question and I am going to close. Some contend that it means 
 (Government ownership of railroads, and I answer it here: Well, 
 suppose it does, although it has no such ulterior purpose. The people 
 of this country have been practically unanimously in favor of a 
 parcel post for 30 years, and if it takes 30 years to elect a Congress 
 tiiat will give them a parcel post with an adverse express interest, 
 how long will it take them to elect a Congress that will give them 
 Government ownership of railroads, with all the power that the 
 railroad and aUied interests possess in this country? Suppose it 
 does? If the parcel post will work out good to the masses of our 
 citizenship — and I am convinced that it will — and when we have 
 gotten a taste of the good thing and it means Government ownership 
 of railroads, in the name of high Heaven, why shouldn't it end there ? 
 
 Senator Swanson. You do not want it delayed until the Nation 
 settles that problem, do you ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. No; I do not care to involve the question as to 
 whether it will ever come around to that point or not, but suppose 
 it does. Should we object to giving the people the thing that is 
 recognized as being desirable ? 
 
 The Chairman. If the people want it, they are entitled to have it. 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. If the experience with parcel post teaches the 
 American people that the Government ownership of railroads would 
 be a good thing, I would like to know who should say that they should 
 not have it ? 
 
 The Chairman. You are right on that. 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. We have been fighting this thing for 30 years, and 
 we believe that we have this Congress around to the point where it is 
 going to do something. The people are, if Congress does not. That 
 is not a threat to individuals or to Congress; but the people have 
 become so aroused on this subject that they do not know what they 
 are going to do, but they are going to do something. I am giving you 
 the farmers' viewpoint for all it is worth. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very glad to have it, too. 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. As a farmer, I think I know what the farmers are 
 thinking. They believe we ought to have a parcel post. As a last 
 word, they will be gratified, greatly gratified, with the largest conces- 
 sion that you can get Congress to make, the most liberal parcel-post 
 law that you can get through Congress; we will rise up and call you 
 
974 PARCEL. POST. 
 
 "blessed" for that much,- and then if that much is a good thing w< 
 will expect your successors, when you have all gone to heaven, t( 
 give us a little more parcel post than we have had before. 
 
 The Chairman. You realize that it must necessarily be a growtr 
 anyway, but what you want is a start ? 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. Yes, sir; we do not want a commission, but we wanl 
 a law. 
 
 Senator Swanson. As I understood the farmers, if they can get s 
 good substantial parcel-post for rural delivery and have 25 or 5C 
 miles that would cover that, they would rather get that promptlj 
 than to be delayed in working out a general scheme. 
 
 Mr. Atkeson. We do not want you to stop with a local parcel 
 post of any character. I agree with your position thoroughly on the 
 question of different units of charge, but we do not want a parcei 
 post on the rural routes only, because of its limited character it may 
 fail to pay as much as we think it might. We want the most liberal 
 parcel-post we can get, and I speak for the farmers. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you. Mr. Atkeson. 
 
TESTIMONY OF ME. M. P. HULL, MASTER OF THE STATE GRANGE 
 OF MICHIGAN, DIMONDVIIIE, MICH. 
 
 The witness was first duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state, for the information of the 
 committee, your name, residence, and occupation, Mr. Hull ? 
 
 Mr. Hull. M. P. Hull, Dimondville, Mich; I am a farmer and am 
 master of the State Grange of Michigan, with a membership of about 
 60,000. I am a member of the legislative committee of the National 
 Grange. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you favor the committee with your views as 
 you understand them, of the National Grange, relative to increasing 
 the scope of our present parcel post as represented under the fourth- 
 class mail provisions ? 
 
 Mr. Hull. I will use this illustration, Senator Bourne ; for instance, 
 I sent for a drill repair. It cost me 25 cents, the express was 40 cents, 
 and I had to go to town for it. 
 
 The Chairman. It weighed what 1 
 
 Mr. Hull. I am not positive, but it was just a fight affair. 
 
 The Chairman. One, two, three, or four pounds ? 
 
 Mr. Hull. Not over 4 pounds at most. At the same time there 
 were mail-delivery routes running out around there and I am sure the 
 carriers were not carrying over an average of 25 pounds. With the 
 scarcity of help on our American farms, with the urgency of our 
 presence there to do the work that is to be done, we need that energy 
 that we have had to spend in going to get that stuff. 
 
 It seems to us that the rate that we pay to the express company is 
 exorbitant and that this Government has all the machinery to-day to 
 do that and not only deliver it to that town but deliver it to our door. 
 The question we want to ask is why that machinery that the Gov- 
 ernment has should not be employed to benefit us and benefit us to 
 the extreme. That is our idea in regard to a general parcel post. 
 We do not care to injure other people, and I do not believe it is going 
 to injure the local merchant. I have made some little study of that. 
 I am satisfied that the local merchants have given these big catalogue 
 houses that they have been trying to fight a good many hundred 
 thousand dollars' worth of free advertising in their fight against par- 
 cel post. They are benefiting the big mail-order houses a good deal 
 more than the parcel post could benefit the mail-order houses. 
 
 1 perhaps can illustrate that better by a little incident. A hardware 
 merchant in one of our towns had a farmer come in asking the price 
 on an ax. He gave him the price as $1.15. The farmer said he 
 would not pay it, that he could get one from Sears, Roebuck & Co. as 
 good for a dollar.. The merchant asked him if he would not do as well 
 by him as he would by the mail-order man. The farmer replied that he 
 would but that he would not do any better. The merchant told him 
 to put down his doUar, which he did. He then told him to put down 
 
 2 cents for writing the letter and 5 cents for a post-office order and 
 then informed him that if he got the goods in less than a hundred 
 
 975 
 
976 PARCEL POST. 
 
 pound lot the freight represented so much and there were perhaps one or 
 two other little items. When it was all down it amounted to pretty 
 nearly the $1.15 that the merchant charged. The farmer said he would 
 take the ax and when he reached for it the merchant said, "No; you 
 come in in 10 clays and get it." If the merchants would use that sort 
 of an argument and look this matter squarely in the face, they could 
 sell for a good, reasonable profit. We farmers like the opportunity 
 of going and looking at the goods we are going to buy. We want 
 that local merchant and we are willing to pay for that accommodation. 
 
 The Chairman. You sell some things to him, do you not ? 
 
 Mr. Hull. Certainly we do. We are not willing to pay an excessive 
 amount. Now, Prof. Atkeson has covered in a large measure the 
 grange's position in regard to parcel post. I think there would be 
 no objection to the three rates. That is my judgment of the matter, 
 you understand, but we have been at this so long that I am sure there 
 will nothing satisfy our farmers other than a general parcel post, 
 Senator, all over the country. Then we would be glad to have you, 
 if you can, give us a rate less than you can afford to give for a general 
 parcel -post, which of course you can, for these shorter hauls; in a 
 radius of 50 miles give us a lower rate, and from house to house upon 
 a rural route a much cheaper rate. There can be no question, gen- 
 tlemen, but what it is a shame to-day to have our rural carriers going 
 up and down the country carrying a small load when they could just 
 as well carry more and accommodate the people. There is too much 
 wasted energy to accord with the spirit of our twentieth century ideas. 
 Some of us are working too hard to-day for that. A parcel post is 
 one of the things that will help to equalize this matter. I think 
 there is no question in any man's mind but what the farmers have an 
 honest kick coming against the rates they have to pay to the express 
 companies, and that is not only true of the farmers, but it is also true 
 of the city dwellers. I am satisfied, Mr. Chairman, that it is not only 
 the farmers of this country, but there has been a wonderful growth 
 of sentiment among the people of the city favorable to a parcel post. 
 Only last Sunday I happened to be called upon to speak to the Chris- 
 tian sociologist class. It was upon the grange and its work, and 
 the minister of that church and several of the congregation — and I did 
 not speak of the matter of the parcel post — came to me and said, "Is 
 not the grange going to do something so as to give us a parcel post ?" 
 I have heard and seen a great deal more of it this last few months than 
 I have ever seen or heard before. It is growing, and aside from 
 these local country merchants, who have been petitioning, and they 
 are mighty active in their petitions, too. I might say to you as Mem- 
 bers of Congress, do not wait to hear from the farmers. 
 
 In the case of the ordinary man with his hands around the handles 
 of a plow, his hands get cramped and it means a mighty undertaking 
 for him to write a letter to his Congressman, but he can think, and 
 he goes and votes, and whether he is to vote one way or the other, 
 it is certainly the duty of the members of this Congress or any other 
 Congress to thoroughly consider the best interests of the people of 
 this Nation and to give them the greatest advantages that they pos- 
 sibly can as a government, and our people never during our history 
 have been thinking so much out on the farms. This unrest, this 
 uncertainty and this growth toward socialism, which is actually 
 alarming, is coming from the fact that the people are beginning to 
 
PARCEL POST. 977 
 
 feel that our public officials are not striving to do for them all that 
 ought to be done. They think that large capital has in the past 
 received too much consideration, and that the laboring men have not 
 received the consideration they should. I. am sure that a liberal 
 parcel-post law, as liberal as you can give us, will do a great deal to 
 satisfy the farmers, and it will do a great deal to satisfy other people. 
 It will perhaps injure the express companies, but they have done 
 things in such a way and done them so long that they will meet no 
 more than their just dues if it does injure the express business of this 
 country. I said to you that I did not care to take much of your time. „ 
 I simply wanted to emphasize the fact and assure you that the posi- 
 tion taken by my coworker, Prof. Atkeson, was just the thought of 
 the country people ; not only members of the grange, but farmers all 
 over the country. I happen to be not only connected with the 
 grange work, but have been very active in dairy work. 
 
 I am president of the American Dairy Farmers' Association, and 
 that work has taken me into 14 or 15 States in the last year. I have 
 had an opportunity not only to meet the farmers and grange mem- 
 bers of my own State, but the farmers of many other States, and 
 some of the city people as well, and I am positive that at least four- 
 fifths, and, if I have not to say it positively, if I were going to give it 
 as my opinion, I should sa}' still a larger proportion, of the people of 
 Michigan and those States surrounding Michigan, out through to the 
 East, are favorable to a general parcel-post law. 
 
 The Chairman. Let me ask you, Mr. Hull, Is it your opinion that 
 the farmers' organizations of the country feel this the most important 
 question before this Congress ? 
 
 Mr. Hull. Well, since the proposed readjustment of tariff and 
 Canadian reciprocity — they thought that perhaps the readjustment 
 of the tariff might be a very important matter — but the adjustment 
 of the tariff and the parcel post are considered the two by far most 
 important. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Do you want to attach parcel post to tariff 
 reform ? 
 
 Mr. Hull. No, no; let us keep it separate, or we would never get 
 anywhere. But the Senator asked me if we considered this the most 
 important. 
 
 Senator Swanson. I do not want you to forget a bill that I have 
 introduced, and that is before this committee, for national aid to 
 public roads. 
 
 Mr. Hull. As one of the officials of the Michigan Good Koads 
 Association — I happen to be vice president of that association — I 
 should be very glad to help you all I can on that, Senator. 
 
 Senator Swanson. You think it is a good aid to parcel post to g-st 
 the carriers good roads to go over i 
 
 Mr. Hull. I do; and I think it is going to be one of the things that 
 a lot of people are going to be thinking of, that you have got to make 
 conditions on the farms such that the people will stay on the farms, and 
 that the best of these people will stay on the farms, or else in just a few 
 years the people of the city will be knockingat the farmer's door and 
 be asking for more than they can furnish. When we can not feed the 
 peopleoT this country and feed them well, this country as a Nation 
 has got to start on a period of retrogression. They need good roads, 
 so that the man may live out in the country and get into town and mix 
 
978 PABCEL POST. 
 
 with the people and feel that he is one of the people, and have a parcel 
 
 Eost so that he may telephone for repairs, and the Government will 
 ring them and lay them at his door the same as they do the news- 
 papers ; and then he will feel that he is getting something of the same 
 advantages that his cousin who lives in town receives. Then there 
 will be no reason why he would not want to live on the farm, but when 
 he sees advantages that are in the town that he doesn't get in the 
 country to-day, he is asking why he should not receive those things. 
 You received the same sort of an argument about rural mail deliveries 
 »when you first started it. They thought it was going to kill all the 
 little towns, but it has not. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you, Mr. Hull. 
 
 Thereupon, the committee, at 5.45 o'clock p. m., adjourned to meet 
 the following morning at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 
FRIDAY, JANUARY 5, 1912. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman) ; Senator Nathan 
 P. Bryan, and Senator Joseph L. Bristow. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. E. W. BLOOMINGDALE, REPRESENTING THE 
 RETAIL DRY GOODS ASSOCIATION OF NEW YORK. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Bloomingdale, it will be necessary that you 
 first be sworn. 
 
 Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your name, age, residence, 
 and present occupation ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Emanuel W. Bloomingdale ; age, 59; occupa- 
 tion, attorney, and residence, New York City. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state, for the information of the 
 committee, whom you represent in appearing before this committee 
 to-day, if you represent anyone other than yourself ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Well, I said that my occupation is that of an 
 attorney; I am here to-day as the president of the Retail Dry Goods 
 Association of New York. I will submit a list which contains the 
 names of all of the large department stores in New York City in the 
 association, with perhaps one or two exceptions. I have also with 
 me Mr. Leslie Graff, the secretary of the Dry Goods' Association. 
 
 The Chairman. Will Mr. Graff appear before the committee ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. If so desirect. 
 
 The list referred to is as follows : 
 
 B. Altman & Co., Abraham & Straus, Bloomingdale Bros., " Cammeyer, " The 
 Fourteenth Street Store, Gimbol Bros., Greenhut-Siegol Cooper Co., J. L. Kesner Co., 
 H. C. P. Koch & Co., Frederick Loeser & Co., Lord & Taylor, Jas. McCreery & Co., 
 R. H. Macy & Co., A. D. Matthews' Sons, A. I. Namm & Son, National Cloak & Suit 
 Co., -O'Neill-Adams Co., Rothenberg.& Co., Saks & Co., Simpson-Crawford Co., 
 Stern Bros. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Bloomingdale, of the names submitted by you 
 in this list, will you kindly designate which of those firms or individu- 
 als, or corporations, are engaged in what is known as the catalogue 
 business or the mail order business '': 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I vyill ask Mr. Graff to do that, Senator, it I 
 may. He is more familiar with it than I. 1 
 
 The Chairman. When Mr. Graff is called then I will ask for that 
 information. Are the gentlemen and organizations that you repre- 
 sent here to-day in favor of or opposed to increasing the activity of 
 our present parcel post as represented under the fourth-class mail 
 provision ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Thev are all in favor of increasing the facilities 
 to business people, by the' adoption of the bill under discussion, if 
 that answers the question? 
 
 i Mr. Gran" was not called, but some information on'lhis point is given on pp. 984 and 985. 
 
 979 
 
980 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. To what bill do you refer particularly, the O'Gor- 
 i nan bill? 1 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly favor the committee with your 
 views as to why you favor that bill— that is, your reasons for doing 
 so? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. We favor that bill because the business of 
 transmitting merchandise by mail is under the embargo now of an 
 excessive cost in sending by mail. The express charges are excessive, 
 the mail charges are equally excessive, and those together we feel 
 are a great deterrent on the development of business. We believe 
 that the facilities of the mail should be extended so that the general 
 population of the country— that is, all over the United States — can 
 receive articles now kept out of the mail altogether in some instances 
 and in many kept out by reason of the excessive charges; that they 
 will be able to employ the facilities of the post office, reaching many 
 places that the express does not reach, except with excessive cost, 
 and that these things may be removed by the adoption of less oner- 
 ous rates on present fourth-class matter. 
 
 The Chairman. How large an organization is the Eetaii Dry Goods 
 Association in New York ; how many individual firms ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. There are 24 firms. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any idea as to what the volume of one 
 year's business would be, in value, of the firms; how large a business 
 they would do annually ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. These 24 firms do, I should say, conserva- 
 tively, a business of SI 50,000,000 a year. They give employment to 
 60,000 people. 
 
 The Chairman. Do these firms under present conditions utilize 
 the fourth-class mail privilege to any extent ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. To a very large extent, some of them, and 
 some to no extent at all. I have prepared some figures here that 
 are indicative of the business that is done generally, and I shall take, 
 for the purposes of the record, two firms whose figures I have on my 
 memorandum. One firm has paid out during the last fiscal year — 
 that is, the year ending, I think, in September, 1911 — for postage on 
 first-class mail incident to their mail-order business $34,000. 
 
 The Chairman. It would be well, in order to make this information 
 of value, to specify the names of the firms. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I would rather impart that information to 
 you personally and not have it go on the record. These are figures 
 that are rather confidential and, while there is no secret about it for 
 the purpose of information to the committee, I had a great deal 
 rather give you that information personally. 
 
 Senator Bryan. T do not see, Mr. Chairman, how it would be 
 proper to submit a part of the information and withhold a part. 
 
 The Chairman. I think, Senator, your point is well taken, and that 
 it will be impossible to embody this information unless we get the 
 authority in order that the committee and Congress and the public 
 shall have such information; and they are entitled to all information 
 that we receive and are entitled to know just how authoritative the 
 statement may be. 
 
 1 See vol. 3, p. 604. 
 
PARCEL POST. 981 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. The statement is that of the National Cloak & 
 Suit Co., of New York. The amount of money spent by customers 
 on incoming first-class mail incident to this business was $83,000 dur- 
 ing the same year. ' 
 
 The Chairman. What year was that ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. The year ending July, 1911. The amount of 
 money spent on postage on first-class mail was $1 1 7,000. The amount 
 of money spent in mailing catalogues during the same year in postage 
 was $412,000. The number of packages sent by mail during that 
 same year was 1,032,764. 
 
 The Chairman. That is under the fourth class ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Undar the fourth class; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you given the amount paid the Government 
 for postage on your fouith-class business for that year ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. The total cost for fourth-class mail was 
 $179,024. 
 
 The Chairman. Paid by this company to the Government ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Yes, sir; on fourth-class mail. The average 
 postage paid for packages mailed was 17.3 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. What was the average weight ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I have not the weight, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, we can work that out from the amount of 
 postage paid. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Yes. The average cost of delivery of pack- 
 ages by express during the same time, as compared with this 17.3 
 cents, is 38J cents. Now, of course, it is very probable that the 
 packages sent by express were the larger and the heavier packages 
 that either were too large to be received in the mails, or where the 
 cost of the postage was larger than even this very large express 
 charge of 38£ cents per package. From these figures I would like 
 to put also this proposition, because it wiU address itself to you 
 later and touches upon the profitableness to the Government of this 
 business; that these transactions give rise to a money-order business, 
 a post office money-order business, amounting to over $6,000,000. 
 
 The Chairman. The Government receiving how much in fees 
 for that ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I have not that information, but that was 
 represented by nearly 1,000,000 post office money orders. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the average was $6 per order? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. $6 per order, yes. 
 
 The Chairman. That is very interesting. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Now, I have the figures here of another 
 house. I have not been enjoined to privacy and would have pre- 
 ferred not to have put it on the record, but I agree with you in order 
 that to be authoritative it must have somebody to stand sponsor for 
 it. These are the figures of the Greenhut-Siegel Cooper Co., of 
 New York. The amount of postage paid by them on first-class 
 mail was $6,000, chargeable to the mail-order department; the 
 amount of money spent by customers on incoming first-class mail to 
 that department was $30,000. 
 
 The Chairman. Per year ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Per year; making a total of first-class mail 
 attributable to the mail-order department of $36,000. The amount 
 of money spent in mailing catalogues was $112,000. The number of 
 
982 PARCEL POST. 
 
 packages sent by mail was 212,000. The total cost of this fourth-class 
 mail was $31,800. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the gross revenue to the Government 
 derived in the transmission of this merchandise ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Yes. The average postage for packages 
 mailed was 16 cents, and the average cost of delivery of all packages 
 sent by express was 39 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you the number of packages sent by express ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. No. I have the number sent by mail, but not 
 the number sent by express. I have not in that instance the figures 
 as to the money-order business, but I have this, and I put this down 
 because when 1 appeared before the House committee the suggestion 
 was made that the institution of this parcel post would relieve the 
 merchants of the local deliveries and would flood the mails with the 
 local deliveries, but I find that the cost of delivering packages within 
 the metropolitan district of New York — that is, within a radius of, 
 say, 35 miles, and most of these large stores cover a radius of from 
 35 to 40 miles 
 
 The Chairman. Do all these stores that you have designated, or 
 these two firms or corporations, sell in their own locality ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. The first one does not. That has not any 
 retail department in New York. 
 
 The Chairman. And it has no branch houses over the country? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Only one house in New York ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Only one house in New York. 
 
 The Chairman. And its whole business is what is commonly known 
 as a mail-order business ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. The mail-order business. 
 
 The Chairman. It sells only within a radius of how many miles ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. It sells anywhere outside of New York City. 
 It would not sell in New York City. 
 
 The Chairman. Would they deliver themselves? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. By wagons ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I believe not. 
 
 The Chairman. But the second firm that you have mentioned 
 have their own deliveiy? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you information as to what the estimated 
 cost of delivery per packet is within the metropolitan district? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Yes, sir; the cost is 5 cents. I have it in 
 one instance 4f cents, but to keep the record of this one firm, whose 
 name I have mentioned, it is 5 cents, within a radius of practically 
 35 miles. Our delivery system there would run up the Hudson 
 River, for example, as far a*s Peekskill, and they will run to Mount 
 Vernon, and up as far as Bridgeport, perhaps. They might not ah 
 run that same distance on Long Island or into some parts of New 
 Jersey, but generally what we call the metropolitan district would 
 take in a radius of about 35 miles. 
 
 The Chairman. And they figure the cost to be 5 cents per packet 
 for delivery ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Five cents per packet for delivery; and that 
 means an average, Senator, counting the package as a unit, whethe 
 it be a refrigerator, cookstove, or a yard of lace; a packet is a packe 
 
PARCEL TOST. 988 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any information which would enable 
 you to state for the benefit of the committee as to the probable aver- 
 age weight of these packets ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I have not. It would be almost impossible 
 to get that. 
 
 The Chairman. But all of these firms doing business in New York 
 figure the cost of distribution from their own stores within a radius 
 of 35 miles to be 5 cents or slightly less per packet. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Between 4-J and 5 cents. When I was before 
 the House committee, I gave the figure offhand as about 4 cents. 
 That statement, made on recollection, is one of about two years ago, 
 and I think correct at the time, but since then the cost has increased 
 and this represents the average cost; that is, 5 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. They make no direct charge to the consumer for 
 delivery, but it is included in the price asked, I assume ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. In the metropolitan district. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any information as to the number of 
 packages delivered by these firms within a year within the metro- 
 politan district ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I have not, but that is easily obtainable, I 
 should think. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Does each of these firms you represent have its 
 own delivery system ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Most of them have. Some of them contract 
 for their delivery. Most of them have their own delivery and many 
 of them have suburban stations; that is, they send their sales in a 
 given district to a central point situated locally near the point of dis- 
 tribution. They send them there by truck and then have them dis- 
 tributed by their own wagons from that point. 
 
 The Chairman. A subrouting station ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You say some have contracts ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the nature of the contract? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. There is a firm in New York, for example, by 
 the name of Piercy, who makes it a business to contract for the deliv- 
 ery at so much a year. 
 
 The Chairman. They are in the general delivery business ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. In the general wagon delivery business. That 
 firm will contract to deliver all of the packages; they will put the 
 firm's own name on the wagon and to all intents and purposes it will 
 be the firm's own delivery; only instead of maintaining this delivery 
 system themselves they contract with Piercy. 
 
 The Chairman. The nature of the contract being what, in con- 
 sideration ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. So much a year. 
 
 The Chairman. Based undoubtedly upon the volume of business 
 ascertained prior to the making of the contract ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you worked out one of those contracts to 
 determine as to the basis per packet in price for delivery ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. There being an intermediate profit in there it 
 would possibly cost more than the 5 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. Not necessarily, I would say. We had testimony 
 snT-vmi+fo/'l in iha (.rnnmittsA lmnn that line of one inHiviflna.l 
 
984 PARCEL POST. 
 
 or corporation doing the delivery business of a number of firms or 
 different houses, concretely 200, according to the evidence. They 
 were enabled to do the business for 75 per cent of what the indi- 
 viduals themselves could do it and make a fair profit. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Was. that in New York City? 
 
 The Chairman. That was in Washington. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I should say that conditions would be a 
 little different. I have the figures of a firm here — these figures are 
 not particularly significant — but this firm of Simpson-Crawford Co., 
 of ]\ew York, maintain the Merchant Express Co., which company 
 is owned by themselves, and it does the delivery of the Simpson- 
 Crawford concern of the Fourteenth Street Store, which company 
 has another department store under the same ownership. They do 
 the delivery of three or four other firms in New York, and I notice 
 that in these figures the cost of delivery per package is 5.3 cents.. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the cost to the firm doing the business for 
 four or five stores, or is that the charge the firm makes to the four 
 or five stores for which it does the business ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. No; that is the cost to this one firm, which is 
 one of the constituents of this express organization, and I note here 
 that the figures 5.3 cents are stated. I am not prepared to say that 
 this difference of three-tenths of a cent may be a difference brought 
 by a different method of accounting. It is not especially significant, 
 except that it is indicative. I should hardly be afraid to assert that 
 for these large concerns like Greenhut, Siegel Cooper & Co., who keep 
 perhaps 125 wagons, their cost of delivery, where they charge no 
 profit to themselves and where they have facilities for obtaining 
 everything that goes to make uj> a delivery system, would be less 
 than the firm that has 200 wagons and which, in addition to charging 
 all of the expenses that may be imposed on the profit business, have 
 to figure a profit to themselves. I should venture to say, without 
 fear of contradiction, that the cost of maintaining a delivery in a 
 firm large enough to get all the advantages would be less than by 
 contracting it out. 
 
 The Chairman. The figures that you submitted to the committee 
 are not at all in conflict with the figures we have received in reference 
 to Washington itself. We had an offer, or, rather, the representative 
 of the parcel-delivery system here in Washington stated that he would 
 be very glad to make a contract with the Government to handle 
 packages here up to 25 pounds in the city proper, a city zone, which 
 would be a radius of about 7 miles, at 5 cents a package. So that 
 the information you submitted checks very well. It is of consid- 
 erable value in the study of this problem, in my opinion. Is the 
 utilization of the fourth-class mail privilege by these firms that you 
 represent in the way of shipment of goods or of samples more par- 
 ticularly ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Mainly in merchandise. 
 
 The Chairman. In merchandise itself ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Twenty-one firms that you say you are repre- 
 senting? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I said 24; I think it should be 21. 
 
 The Chairman. Hoav many of the 21 are catalogue or mail-order 
 houses? 
 
PABOEL POST. 985 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Twelve. 
 
 The Chairman. But all of them, with the exception of the first one 
 you mentioned, do a city business ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Is their trade with individuals over the country, or 
 with merchants and storekeepers over the country principally? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I think wholly with the consumer. 
 
 The Chairman. With individual orders ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. With individual orders. 
 
 The Chairman. None with country stores or retailers ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Practically none. 
 
 The Chairman. Twelve of them issue catalogues; the other nine 
 have no catalogues ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. The other nine do no catalogue business, but 
 it does not follow that those firms that do not issue a catalogue do not 
 send merchandise by mail, because goods that are advertised in the 
 metropolitan newspapers from day to day, which papers go out over 
 the whole country, bring in to a greater or a less extent considerable 
 business. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the viewpoint taken by the interests you 
 represent in this hearing, as I take it, is solely one of increased trans- 
 portation facility for the operation of their own business ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. For the operation of their own business and 
 for the advantage of the purchaser who outside of the metropolitan 
 district pays the additional cost of the transportation of the mer- 
 chandise. 
 
 The Chairman. And in the metropolitan district, who, in reality, 
 pays the additional cost, if it is put in the price asked for the article, 
 so that the consumer pays the cost in any event ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Excepting that in the metropolitan district 
 the cost is infinitesimal when generally distributed, because while the 
 cost of each package is 5 cents, you must bear in mind that in the 
 total number of packages there is practically no cost at all to the 
 consumer. 
 
 The Chairman. But the actual cost against the annual business 
 might be only a cent per package, because there might only be one- 
 fifth or 20 per cent of the goods sold in the metropolitan district that 
 were actually delivered by the seller. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Or very much less than that, yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you studied out this problem yourself, Mr. 
 Bloomingdale, in reference to the exact increased activity that the 
 Government should and could give the people of the country, from a 
 business standpoint so that the governmental operation should be 
 self supporting ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Only to the extent, Senator, of entertaining 
 an opinion that a service of this kind would, if not immediately, 
 eventually, become self supporting in the increase of business without a 
 commensurate increase in the cost of its operation and in the in- 
 creased activity in other classes of mail matter directly to be credited 
 to the increased business in the adoption of the new rates. 
 
 The Chairman. Could you favor the committee with information 
 as to the percentages based first, on value, second, on weight, and 
 third, on pieces, of the annual business transacted by these 21 firms 
 21845— vol 4—12 8 
 
986 PARCEL POS'X. 
 
 outside of metropolitan New York, the percentages giving the volume 
 shipped by freight, by express, and by fourth-class mail ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I am very sorry that no statistics of that kind 
 have been kept by any of these firms. These figures that I have 
 given you here are not figures that were prepared for the elucidation 
 of this question of parcel post. They are purely the statistics that 
 were made in order to keep in hand the operation of the business 
 itself. That is why I was reluctant to give that information, because 
 they are private figures to keep control of their own concerns, and 
 none of these figures are open to the charge that is so frequently made 
 that statistics can be made to prove almost anything on either side of a 
 proposition. 
 
 The Chairman. I think the information will be of great value 
 to us, Mr. Bloomingdale, and on behalf of the committee I desire to 
 express our appreciation in getting that information. I think it is 
 of considerable value in our study that we are making. Are you 
 sufficiently familiar with the operation of these 21 firms or indi- 
 viduals or corporations to give an opinion which you think would have 
 value, based upon information as to the probable percentage of the 
 total volume of business in value that now goes through the fourth- 
 class mail '? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I have not those figures, and may I say, 
 Senator, that any information of that kind that can be concretely 
 gotten, if you will give me a memorandum, I will make the effort to 
 have the information supplied. 
 
 The Chairman. I thank you very much. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Of course, I came here at a loss to know in 
 just which direction your inquiries were going to lead. These figures 
 that I have here were collated because of the experience that I had 
 in the hearing before the House committee, so that I will have to 
 put myself in the same position that I did then; I will have to take 
 to-day's experience to prepare figures for the next time, if I can get 
 at them. 
 
 The Chairman. I will gladly send you a letter asking for certain 
 specific information if it can be collated without any great trouble to 
 your associates. Have you given any study or consideration as to 
 what is becoming known as a zone system, namely, a division of the 
 country into zones, and a difference in rates, dependent primarily 
 upon the distance of carriage ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. In this general way; it has always seemed to 
 me that the distance carried ought not to measure the cost of the 
 service. The cost of the service is incurred largely at the point of 
 reception and the point of delivery. Intermediate service is infini- 
 tesimal in cost and in value to the cost of organization at either end, 
 and for that reason it seemed inconsistent that that thing which 
 costs so little should measure the total cost and increase the charge. 
 This service ought to be put on for the benefit of the people generally 
 and for those who wish to patronize the markets of the country, and, 
 personally, I do not think there is going to be such a tremendous 
 increase in the volume of business done by mail if this law is enacted. 
 I think its effect is going to be rather in reducing a charge to those 
 who now make use of the service rather than in a tremendous increase 
 in that service. ■ 
 
PARCEL POST. 987 
 
 The Chairman. If you increase the weight limit from 4 pounds to 
 11 pounds, you would undoubtedly increase the average weight of 
 the merchandise carried under fourth-class mail. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. When I speak of the volume of business, I 
 mean the volume of business from the merchant's viewpoint, not 
 from the view of the carrying of the Post Office Department. I mean 
 to say that I do not believe that the adoption of this bill is going to 
 effect a tremendous increase in the business done by merchants in 
 cities. I believe it is going to add to their facilities. I do not think 
 it is going to afford a tremendous increase in the volume of business 
 we now do. We will send our goods by mail instead of by express, 
 and the saving in the cost of transportation is going to be -a saving to 
 the consumer. 
 
 The Chairman. But, then, the governmental representatives have 
 got to figure as to the rates that will cover the cost of the operation, 
 have they not ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. If the preponderating consideration is that 
 this function of the Government must be self-supporting or a profit- 
 making branch, yes. 
 
 The Chairman. What is your view on that particular point ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. My view on that point is that that ought not 
 to be a dominating consideration. The consideration should be the 
 affording of facilities of a governmental service that would provide 
 for cheap, quick transportation as a legitimate function of the Gov- 
 ernment that might be carried on even though an immediate profit 
 could not be figured on it. 
 
 The Chairman. Does not that lead you, then, to the ultimate con- 
 clusion that the Government should do the transportation business 
 of the country 1 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Its general transportation business 1 Well, 
 that is going a long ways and is undertaking some phases of Govern- 
 ment function that I do not personally believe in — that is, I do not 
 to its ultimate conclusion. 
 
 The Chairman. Where are you going to make your line of demar- 
 cation ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. The line of demarcation exists now. I would 
 simply move the line a little. 
 
 The Chairman. From 4 to 11 pounds? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. From 4 to 11 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. But you have to also take in that action the con- 
 sideration of the cost, and if I understand you correctly, you are of 
 the opinion that it is the duty of the Government, because of the 
 general welfare, to even operate that branch at a loss. Why do 
 you make 11 pounds your line of demarcation, if you start with your 
 premise as to the principle of the governmental function ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. In the first place, the removal of the line of 
 limit of mailable packages from 4 to 11 pounds puts us only abreast 
 of the other countries that are within the Universal Postal Union. 
 I feel that we should have all the facilities in the way of Government 
 service that people have who live in other countries, and that we 
 should give the same privileges to our own people that we now give 
 to the citizens of other countries. Now I am not prepared to go 
 step by step to the ultimate conclusion that you stated that the 
 Government should take charge of the transportation. 
 
988 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Do not understand me that that is my view. I 
 am trying to draw your view out. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Suppose that the other countries raised the limit 
 above 11 pounds, would you favor this country raising the limit? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. This country is able to and does do so much 
 more for its people that we should put our people on an equality with 
 others. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why should the Government transport freight 
 for less than cost for anybody? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I do not think that it necessarily does. The 
 Government is a very complicated proposition, and if I may make a 
 comparison between so tremendous a thing as the Government and 
 so small a thing as one of these institutions, I might say that many 
 of their departments are carried on at a bookkeeping loss, but taken 
 in their entirety there is no loss, and I think that while there may 
 apparently be a loss in the transmission of packages at 8 cents a 
 pound all over the United States, and while that particular item in 
 the post office accounting might show a deficit, that deficit would be 
 in part or wholly wiped out by increased profits in other branches of 
 the post-office work. I think you were not in the room, Senator, at 
 the time I indicated by figures that are in the record that this fourth- 
 class matter gives rise to a tremendous class of first-class matter that 
 is very profitable to the Post Office Department. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I understood you to say a while ago that you 
 believed that the Government ought to undertake it even if it carried 
 it at a loss. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I did not go quite so far as that. Personally, 
 I think it would not be a loss. I say that ought not to be the most 
 important consideration. 
 
 The Chairman. What would be the attitude of your associates on 
 a plan of this nature, the establishment of a minimum rate on rural 
 routes, first in all cases an increase in weight from 4 pounds to 11 
 pounds, then the establishment of a low minimum rate on all packets 
 initiating and ending on rural routes, then let that constitute the 
 first zone; then a second zone and establish a higher rate with same 
 maximum weight, 11 pounds, say, or with a radius of 50 miles from 
 every post office in the United States ; then the establishment of a 
 still higher rate for the third zone consisting of a distant zone of so 
 many additional miles, 100, 200, or whatever it might be, or con- 
 fined to each State; and then the establishment of a fourth zone, say, 
 of an additional mileage extending from every post office, or confined 
 to groups of States adjoining each other, and then a general rate for 
 the United States and its insular possessions. Do vou get the idea? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Yes; I think I understand it. The objec- 
 tion to that would be in the first place, as stated by yourself, it would 
 be a thing of infinite complication, a complication so great that the 
 mere cost of maintaining it, I think, would be an objection to its 
 adoption. 
 
 The Chairman. Pardon the interruption, but I must object to 
 your stating that I implied any objection in my question to the 
 adoption of this plan. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Did I say so? I did not mean to say so. 
 That is merely a matter of punctuation. I will leave out the words 
 "as stated by yourself." It would be so tremendously complicated 
 
PARCEL POST. 989 
 
 that I think the cost of maintaining it would be a tremendous charge. 
 It would be a thing that would be difficult of comprehension and it 
 would be of limited service to the people. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose it could be worked out so that it was 
 perfectly feasible, not burdensome, and not expensive ; what would 
 you think of the plan itself, eliminating the cost of its adoption from 
 the governmental standpoint ? 
 
 Mr. Blooming-dale. I would say that it would not be that full 
 measure of service that would be of the greatest benefit to all of our 
 people. In some instances it would be practically of no service. 
 In some of our communities I think there is comparatively little of 
 this extended service that would begin and end within a certain 
 State. This service, nearly all of it, comes from outside the State, 
 and do not forget that there is the other end of the service, the service 
 by the producer himself in sending his product from his farm or from 
 the place of its inception to communities where frequently it would 
 have to go outside of the zone, so that you would lose the benefit of 
 stuff going in either direction. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, in private enterprises, are not all trans- 
 portation schemes worked out, apparently at least, on the distance 
 basis ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. The charge is made on the distance basis. 
 
 The Chairman. Why should not the Government in this particular 
 operation, which is in the nature of an increased transportation 
 facility, work out its solution on the same lines from a purely business 
 standpoint ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I think it is equally fallacious in both instances. 
 It should not be made solely on the distance traveled, because the 
 distance is not a measure of the service rendered. 
 
 The Chairman. I concur with you on that to a certain extent, but 
 the transportation is one of the prime factors in a certain amount of 
 distance. You take in our governmental operations of the post 
 office under fourth-class-mail provision, according to the data sub- 
 mitted by the department, the average weight of a packet is a little 
 over 5 ounces. The average weight of a packet under the 11 -pound 
 maximum weight in the operation of the International Parcel Post, 
 and in the operation in those countries like England, having an 11- 
 pound maximum weight, is between 3 and 4 pounds. Now, in the 
 calculation in the department of this country on fourth-class matter, 
 it is that from 20 to 25 per cent is the cost of transportation, and 
 from 75 to 80 per cent is the cost of collection and distribution. Now, 
 as your weight increases, your percentage of the cost of the activity 
 must increase on the transportation basis. While I have no figures 
 to substantiate my own opinion, I believe that under the 11-pound 
 weight your transportation factor, instead of being 20 or 25 per cent, 
 may be 50, and your cost of collection and assembling, instead of 
 being in that particular operation 75 to 80 per cent, may only be 50. 
 In other words, it is clear to my mind that as your weight increases you 
 have' got to pay more and more attention to the transportation charge 
 in your operation in order to make it a self-supporting business. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Let me see if I can not shake your belief in 
 that. I can not agree with you that the whole increase in the cost of 
 handling the matter would be on the transportation end of it. If you 
 take a thousand nackasres weighing 11 ounces each, the cost of the 
 
990 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 reception at the point where the business is initiated of handling 
 11,000 ounces, as compared with a thousand packages of 4 pounds 
 each, making 4,000 pounds, would certainly increase the cost of hand- 
 ling at the point of inception, so that some part of that increased cost 
 would be there, would it not ? 
 
 The Chairman. But not nearly as material as the cost of the 
 increased weight in transportation. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Then again, another considerable percentage 
 of that cost for the same reasons, should be chargeable at the point of 
 destination, so that the whole increased cost could not possibly be on 
 the cost of transportation. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you think the percentage would be just the 
 same on the average of 5 ounces as on the average of 4 pounds in 
 weight. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I think it would be very little more. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose that the unit of measure in the cost of 
 transportation is a ton-mile basis and not a linear-foot basis. If it is 
 a weight unit, your argument is not sound? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. No. 
 
 The Chairman. If it is a space unit, your argument then is sound, 
 up to the point of utilization of all your space? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Very true. 
 
 Senator Bristow. We pay by the pound rate, do we not, for our 
 transportation? We are paying by the pound and we must neces- 
 sarily consider this from the pound point of view. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. But the increase in the cost of transporting 
 the pound would not necessarily be that much larger. The price paid 
 by the Government for transporting the pound must be measured by 
 the number of pounds, by the cost of carrying the number of pounds. 
 Now, in making the contract with your railroad company there must 
 be some relation between the cost to the railroad company for trans- 
 mitting the pound and for the service they render. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They figure on pound and space, of course; but 
 the cost of collection and distribution is governed more by the packets 
 handled than by the size of the packets. The ordinary mail clerk will 
 handle a packet weighing several pounds about as rapidly as he 
 would a packet weighing an ounce. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Very much more rapidly than he would 16 
 packets weighing an ounce each. The difference is very slight. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Very slight in the packets. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. But when that slight increase is measured by 
 the tremendous number of packages it becomes quite a factor. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It is not so much as in the increase in the volume 
 of weight if the weight is multiplied by three or four, for instance. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. In fixing the basis of all these charges it is not 
 so much what the railroads figure as what the Government figures. 
 The Government usually fixes the terms under which mails are trans- 
 ported. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The contracts are upon the weight basis now. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Because that has been a fair basis; but if it 
 can be figured out that another basis would be fair to the railroad 
 companies and more just to the Government I have no doubt that 
 another basis would be figured out that would be fairer all around. I 
 do not believe that the Government would pay a railroad company 
 
PARCEL POST. 991 
 
 four times as much for carrying mail matter provided it did not put 
 the railroad company to any greater expense to transport it. I do 
 not believe the Government would permit the increase in the charge 
 by multiplying it by four. 
 
 Senator Bristow. In figuring the cost of transportation we have 
 to take into consideration the weight of the article transported. Are 
 you contemplating changing the entire basis of transportation and 
 eh'minating weight and charging purely for space ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I should want to study that phase before 
 going on record as upsetting a plan that has been universally adopted, 
 but I can still see that if under the new conditions another arrange- 
 ment is equally just to the transportation company and fair to trie 
 Government that there could be no objection to working out a new 
 solution, even though it did involve upsetting the plan heretofore 
 followed. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You have not any new solution to suggest? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. That is a branch of the subject I have not 
 addressed myself to. 
 
 The Chairman. I fully agree with you that if it can be found on 
 investigation that another method would be preferable, it is the 
 duty of the Government and the Government undoubtedly would 
 as soon as they ascertain that fact, adopt it, but even from your 
 own point or contention of a space unit instead of a weight unit 
 presumably a packet weighing 4 pounds will occupy more space 
 than a packet weighing 5 ounces. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. It probably would. 
 
 The Chairman. And your point or contention is predicated, as I 
 understand it, entirely on utilization of waste of space now not used, 
 and your point ceases the moment you utilize that wasted space and 
 your transportation must be an increased factor in your estimate as 
 to the price to be charged as relative to the cost of concentration 
 and distribution. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. You have stated it much more clearly than 
 I could have stated it myself. 
 
 The Chairman. What would be the attitude of yourself and asso- 
 ciates with reference to establishing a zone system, not necessarily 
 that outlined by myself, but a system worked out and adopted on 
 primarily a distance basis, a series of zones, the weights the same in 
 every zone, but the charge differing in each zone, dependent upon 
 the distance of the zone from the point of initiation of each operation ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. We would not be favorably inclined toward 
 that solution of it. My recollection is that that would not be en- 
 tirely new. I am just old enough to remember that that was at 
 one time the rule with regard to first-class matter. It seems to me 
 that when I was a boy I used to get letters from what was then the 
 West and there was one charge when the letter came from one point 
 and a further charge when the letter left another point, with an 
 additional charge for delivery besides. A part of my family lived 
 at that time in Kansas and a part in California and I know that our 
 letters that came from Kansas had a postage stamp that was entirely 
 unfamiliar to me when a boy. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is a good way back, Mr. Bloomingdale. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you figure fourth class and first class as 
 exactly the same in the fundamental study ? Is not there an element 
 
992 PABCEL. POST, 
 
 of education in the first-class that is not apparent to the same extent 
 in the fourth-class mail matter under the present division made by 
 the law and by the department as to the material carried under the 
 different classes ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdalb. Xo one will contend but that the chief thought 
 and the chief consideration of the Post Office Department should be 
 given to first-class mail matter. That is the personal expression; 
 it touches so closely to each person with their relations to the family 
 and the community. Of course, there is an abuse in that. Much 
 matter goes first class that is not entitled to first-class privileges. 
 
 The Chairman. How is that; that is the highest rate charged? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. One morning last month I happened to 
 count my personal mail that I got at home and at the office and I 
 found that I had received 11 circulars in the mail. 
 
 The Chairman. Sent by first-class mail? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. By first class, yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Did they not pay the higher rate" of postage in order 
 to get more attention; the Government is the gainer to that extent, 
 is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. We were not speaking of that phase of it. 
 First-class mail necessarily touches all of us and should be encour- 
 aged, although that very sentiment is taken advantage of by those 
 who use first-class mad. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you say that that is an advantage, Mr. Bloom- 
 ingdale ? I would like to get your analysis of that. I do not see where 
 they are taking the advantage. It seems to me the sender is figuring 
 that he is willing to pay a dual price to get the attention of the 
 receiver on the assumption that there is something in it because it 
 goes first class and bears a 2-cent stamp instead of a 1-cent stamp. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I mentioned that only, Senator, because I was 
 trying to shade off my conception of first-class mad, because it is so 
 personal to us, and I said that that was taken advantage of by the 
 inclusion in it of a great deal of matter that is not of a sentimental 
 origin, or termination. Of course it is profitable to the Government. 
 I think that nothing should be done that would interfere with or 
 militate against first-class matter. Xext to that in importance, I 
 think, probably comes circulation through the mads of printed matter. 
 I am a believer in the free circulation of printed matter, newspapers, 
 books, and magazines. Then I think there should be some considera- 
 tion given to the interchanging and transportation of those things that 
 everybody requires. I think that the Government ought to facilitate 
 the reception and the sending by all of our people, so far as they rea- 
 sonably can, of all those things of exchange that enter into our dady 
 lives. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you immediately run into the transportation 
 question, do you not ? The question then is, how far shall the Gov- 
 ernment go? Shall the Government simply furnish a facility not now 
 in existence, or furnished by private enterprise, and act as a coordi- 
 nate instrumentahty to cooperate with private enterprise, or shall it 
 absorb that enterprise and perform the function itself ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I think that there is a logical stopping point 
 before you get to that ultimate conclusion. I think that there is a line 
 drawn. It is true that the 11-pound limit may be an arbitrary point. 
 You may say if you go 11 pounds, why not go 15, 20, or 30 pounds. 
 
PABOEL POST. 993 
 
 Well, a half ounce, perhaps, is an arbitrary limit for first-class mail 
 matter. The mere fact that one is prepared to say that we should 
 go to 11 pounds I do not think involves him in an inconsistency if 
 he does not go by easy stages, a town at a time, if you please, up to a 
 limit. I believe that 11 pounds is the general universal postal limit. 
 
 The Chairman. Eleven pounds is the result, I assume, based on 
 the difference on weight in other countries and we are simply follow- 
 ing other countries in the International Union. 
 
 Senator Bey an. The bill which you advocate provides for 25 
 pounds on rural routes. Do you not think it would be quite natural 
 hereafter for those living on the general routes to insist that they 
 should have up to a 25-pound limit also ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. No, I do not think so. I think there is a dif- 
 ferent condition; 25-pound limit is only for merchandise originating 
 and terminating within a rural route. I do not think that any incon- 
 sistency can be charged. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I do not say there is any inconsistency. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I do not think the adoption of it in one 
 instance would afford a reasonable basis for asking for it in another. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you not think that an individual living off a rural 
 route will soon say that the resident on that rural route is receiving 
 a special privilege that he does not enjoy, and that he would want 
 equal opportunity? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I do not think so, because he is enjoying it. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose he lived off a rural route, lived in a city 
 or in a town that is not on a rural route. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I do not know that I am able to answer what 
 the individual may do. I suppose everybody will come here and ask 
 everything that is coming to him and then some. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, we can not change human nature. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. No, thank God. 
 
 The Chairman. But I would like to improve it, wouldn't you* 
 Is your objection to the establishment of a zone basis, making dif- 
 ferent rates dependent upon different distances, based upon the idea 
 that it would limit the area of the particular activity of the interest 
 you represent here ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. No, Senator; frankly that is not the motive 
 at all. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you believe it would limit your activity ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I said a little while ago that I did not believe 
 that the adoption of this measure is going to be followed by a tremen- 
 dous increase in the business that would be involved in the change. I 
 have heard it said at some of these meetings that the adoption of the 
 parcel post would practically eliminate the local shopkeeper, as 
 though everybody all over this country were simply waiting for a 
 difference of 8 cents a pound in freight to buy everything they 
 wanted on Fifth Avenue, instead of buying it locally. I do not 
 believe that is so. I believe that the local dealer is going to continue 
 to supply the local man as he does now. I think that the person who 
 now patronizes the local dealer is going to continue to do so and for 
 many reasons. The first is that all of the people in this country do 
 not care what is being worn in New York or Philadelphia or Washing- 
 ton. The people in the country want to have the same things that 
 their neighbors have. The people who live in rural communities do 
 
•994 PARCEL POST. 
 
 not care to adopt the style of the metropolitan cities, and if they did, 
 they couldn't get them, because it means personal presence to get 
 what they want. A man who lives near a rural post office who wants 
 a pair of shoes has to go after them and fit them on. He can not 
 send to New York for them, even though he knows his size. _ A man 
 who wants to buy a necktie can not send to New York for it. Our 
 people all over this country are satisfied with what they get locally. 
 They want to have exactly what their neighbor has, because that sets 
 the fashion for them. 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, they prefer to be normal and do 
 not seek notoriety by being an oddity ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. They are normal, and they do not care to be 
 odd. 
 
 The Chairman. I agree with you fully in that analysis. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Furthermore, the local dealer has a great 
 advantage in time. Let us say the farmer — and I use the word ge- 
 netically as distinguished from a person who lives in a good-sized 
 town — the farmer can get what he wants immediately from the local 
 storekeeper instead of waiting several days while he writes to the city 
 and has it sent to him, and I am sure that you will agree with me on 
 this, that the ordinary person — the farmer again in the same sense — 
 is not a ready letter writer. It is a rather difficult undertaking for 
 him to sit down and write with any precision and state just exactly 
 what he wants. The writing of a letter is quite an undertaking for 
 many of us. 
 
 The Chairman. Any one would rather use a telephone than write 
 a letter, would he not ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Most people do, but just stop and think that 
 when you want to write for something what minute particulars you 
 must go into in order to get what you want. All those things are em- 
 bargoes. All these are reasons why if you reduce the cost of this service 
 from 16 to 8 cents it does not mean that everybody is waiting on his 
 farm and in his country town until that difference is made so that he 
 can send to Washington, or to Philadelphia, or New York, or Boston to 
 get the things that he wants. I believe that the establishment of this 
 service is going to make very little difference to the rural storekeeper. 
 I do not believe that it is going to drive the rural storekeeper out of 
 existence anj r more than the adoption of third-class rates for news- 
 papers and the advantage given to the circulation of metropolitan 
 newspapers throughout the country has driven the local newspapers 
 out of the district. Why is it that a man who lives in the country 
 district still continues to get the local newspaper '? He is not inter^ 
 ested in the news of the world in a general way. He does not care so 
 much about these things as you men who are worrying about these 
 questions. He gets all that applies to him through his local news- 
 paper. 
 
 The Chairman. He sometimes thinks he gets more honest news 
 than he gets from the metropolitan paper. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I am a little surprised that that statement 
 should be made by a Senator of the United States, with a newspaper 
 owner here on the committee. Just imagine how that is going to 
 sound when sent throughout the country. 
 
 The Chairman. T am perfectly willing that that statement should 
 go out. 
 
PARCEL POST. 995 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. No; the local man takes the local newspaper 
 because his interests are local. He gets it fresh from the press. He 
 does not get the news when it is a day old, and the paper contains 
 the news that he wants. It is the same with the merchant in the 
 goods that he wants. He wants to see the goods and handle them 
 and know what he is going to get, and have a range to select from. 
 I believe that the idea is entirely wrong that the institution of this 
 change is going to have an injurious effect on the country storekeeper. 
 
 The Chairman. In that connection, Mr. BJoomingdale, would you 
 kindly give the committee the benefit of your views a? to the advan- 
 tage? that your associates, particularly the 12 of the 21 firms or cor- 
 porations or individuals enumerated in the list that you have sub- 
 mitted that you represent at this hearing, enjoy over what is ordi- 
 narily termed the country merchant in the way of doing business in 
 their particular localities, and the disadvantages that you operate 
 under in competition'with them ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. With the rural storekeeper ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I think he has stated the disadvantages, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, if there are any other points that occur to 
 him, he might add them, then. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Another advantage that the rural storekeeper 
 has is that in most parts of this country the country store is the place 
 of local resort. It is the place where the people gather for an inter- 
 change of ideas. They want to go there. They are personally 
 acquainted with the man who runs the place and they believe in him. 
 Frequently he is the postmaster. He has the first chance to supply 
 the wants of the people around about. Of course the man who wants 
 to get a wider range of choice and the man who can not get the thing 
 that a country storekeeper keeps in rather a restricted stock may 
 send to New York for it. If he does, he sends with many misgivings. 
 He is sending his money out in the wide world and he doesn't know 
 whether it is coming back to him or not, and he will not do it unless it 
 is for something that he can not get near home. Of course I am 
 speaking now by and large. I will grant that the young lady who 
 lives in a small country town and who is about to be married wants 
 on that occasion the latest hints from Paris, and it is possible there- 
 fore that she may send to New York for something that she can not 
 get locally. That is only once in her life. In other words, I believe 
 that to-day the institution of this change would work out more for 
 the benefit of the rural resident by reducing the taxes upon the 
 stuff that he gets, and that he would be the beneficiary of this change, 
 and that the advantage to the metropolitan storekeeper would be 
 comparatively slight. There might be some advantage to him, but 
 not much. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, to return again to my question, how do you 
 account for the ability of these 21 firms, corporations, or individuals 
 being able to compete all over this country with the local merchant ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. If the truth is known he doesn't compete — 
 that is, he has not any advantage in competing. 
 
 The Chairman. He gets into that territory and does a business in 
 the aggregate in the case in which we are speaking of a hundred 
 million or more. 
 
996 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. That includes their own business in New York 
 City, and by far the vast preponderance of that business is in New 
 York City. 
 
 The Chairman. Could you give the committee the benefit of your 
 idea of what is the amount of business done outside ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. You take this firm that has sent 212,000 
 packages by mail. I have not the number of packages that they 
 have sent out by express. 
 
 The Chairman. If you take that one that you mentioned first as 
 doing an exclusive business outside of New York, how do you account 
 for their growth in competition with the people that they reach all 
 over the country? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. That particular firm, Senator, deals in an 
 article that the country storekeeper does not keep. It is a specialty. 
 
 The Chairman. It is in the nature of a copyright? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I would not go quite as "far as that. It is a 
 cloak and suit concern, suits for women, such as the country store- 
 keeper does not carry. He can not keep the assortment of styles, 
 colors, and prices. That particular character of merchandise 
 requires a very considerable investment. 
 
 The Chairman. And they manufacture themselves, do they not? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I do not think they manufacture all their 
 goods. I think they make some and buy some. 
 
 The Chairman. They make some ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I think so. 
 
 The Chairman. Then doubtless they have contracts with factories 
 so as to control the entire output, or only ship so that they can con- 
 trol, so that is almost in realty the direct contact between the manu- 
 facturer and the consumer? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Yes. That particular business is one in which 
 the country storekeeper does not compete because he does not keep 
 the stuff. I was, until about five years ago, in the department-store 
 business myself. While by profession I am an attorney, I left the 
 fatal goddess to go into merchandising and now have come back to 
 mother. I should be very greatly surprised if with these 20 firms that 
 I represent to have done about $150,000,000 business annually 5 per 
 cent of it was done outside. In the business coming into their stores 
 or emanating from their daily advertising or their advertising matter, 
 such as catalogues, etc., the amount of business done is very small. 
 Many of the large New York firms who formerlv maintained a mail- 
 order department have discontinued it because it did not pay. 
 
 The Chairman. They have ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Oh, yes. If I were not afraid you would ask 
 me the name of the firm, which was imparted to me in confidence,! 
 might say that one of the largest firms doing a mail-order business in 
 New York, a business of half a million dollars, has just concluded to 
 discontinue that department. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you mind stating what is the volume of the 
 business of the National Cloak & Suit Co. ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I do not know. I would not venture a 
 guess. The figure I have in mind is not at all authentic and it might 
 not be fair to them. The firm that I was formerly connected with 
 had a mail-order department where, during the last year we had it, it 
 did a business of about $350,000 through catalogues. We discon- 
 
PARCEL. POST. 997 
 
 tinued it because it represented a loss, and other firms since then have 
 discontinued their mail-order departments because they represented 
 a loss. The firm that I recently referred to was one of the largest 
 firms in New York and after the issuance of their last catalogue they 
 concluded not to issue any more. The maintenance of a depart- 
 ment store in New York is based, of course, on the overhead charge, 
 the incidental charges that go to make up the expense, includ- 
 ing rent, etc. Of course there is a relation between the expense 
 account totaled and the gross-profit account. The margin between 
 those two are small, yet on the tremendous volume of business it is 
 considerable in amount. The maintenance of the mail-order depart- 
 ment involves all the other expense we speak of and the additional cost 
 of maintaining a mail-order department. Somebody has got to 
 receive the mail matter. Here we see $83,000 worth of incoming 
 mail. That $83,000 must mean about 16,000,000 pieces of mail, 
 on the average of 2 cents a piece. Somebody has got to receive the 
 letters and classify them and take the letters and fill the orders. 
 There is already the expense of maintaining the business on mer- 
 chandise, but in addition to that the person operating the counter 
 has got to wait on the counter, and that cost is in addition to main- 
 taining the cost of the overhead charges, and it also has to be credited 
 entirely to the profits of the mail-order department, which are simply 
 the percentage of the profits of the general establishment. 
 
 The Chairman. You have got to change your whole organization? 
 The items are separate and distinct? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Only for bookkeeping purposes. They come 
 out of the same pocketbook, because the profit of the general estab- 
 lishment goes into the general account and out of that must come the 
 expense of maintaining the mail-order department. 
 
 The Chairman. But it is an additional expense to the ordinary 
 operation? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. An additional expense to the ordinary opera- 
 tion. It is an incubus, a cancer. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How do you account for the rapid growth of 
 such concerns as Montgomery Ward & Co. and Sears, Roebuck & Co. ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. They have this advantage, they do not main- 
 tain the retail establishment with its great cost of organization. 
 They have not gone beyond Madison Street in Chicago, or beyond 
 Fifth or Sixth Avenue in Chicago. They have less expensive estab- 
 lishments. They do not maintain a staff of floorwalkers and window 
 trimmers that go to make up the expense of the retail establishment. 
 
 The Chairman. Their success is due primarily to restricting their 
 activity to mail-order business? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. To restricting their activity to mail-order 
 business. 
 
 The Chairman. Instead of a dual organization that often conflicts ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. All of the expense is eliminated excepting 
 that directly concerned in the transaction of each specific sale they 
 make. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, those mail-order houses or catalogue houses 
 in Chicago do an annual business of $120,000,000. They sell nothing 
 within the city. In one case they sell nothing within a radius of 25 
 miles of the city. They give no credit that is appreciable. How 
 do you account for their ability to invade the territory of the country 
 
998 PARCEL POST. 
 
 merchant all over this country and compete with him ? Can you give 
 your views, or any information, that would be of value to the com- 
 mittee on that particular point ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. To a large extent they keep a good many 
 things that the country storekeeper does not keep. They have a 
 market of their own. A great many things that can not be obtained 
 locally because the country storekeeper can not be so universally pro- 
 vided. He can not be so general in his assortment. He keeps only 
 the goods in daily want by the community in which he lives. Their 
 business is largely that. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But they do sell, though, everything that the 
 country merchant carries. Their catalogues present almost every- 
 thing that mankind uses. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. So they do; but a large part of their business 
 is done in things that are not generally kept in every country store 
 throughout the country. Furthermore, a great many people living 
 on rural routes still live at some distance from the country store- 
 keeper. It is easier for him, perhaps, to get the things from Chicago. 
 The Chicago mail-order business has always been a great mystery to 
 people in New York. We have never understood how it was, but it 
 seems to be the fact that the mail-order business has flourished in 
 Chicago and, with the exception of one or two concerns in New York, 
 New York has never built up a large mail-order business. I presume 
 that Chicago has the advantage, being more central. It is 24 hours 
 'nearer to all that part of the country that lies west of the Missouri 
 River; and yet, as you sa3 r , the Chicago mail-order houses do business 
 right here in the East, in places that we can reach overnight. 
 
 The Chairman. They send a good deal of their stuff to Washington ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I dare say they do. I do not think they go 
 into New York City, but they come within a striking distance of New 
 York City. They sell to people who could get their goods in 10 hours 
 right from New York, and yet they ship these goods from Chicago. 
 
 The Chairman. We have had witnesses before the committee whose 
 testimony has left the impression on my mind that in their opinion 
 the personal equation of our citizenship had changed, and that the 
 people preferred style to quality in price, which was rather a surprise 
 to me. Would you concur in that idea ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. No; I would not. I think that possibly there 
 are some feverish people who live in large centers who would do that, 
 but I do not believe that the character of the people has changed. 
 
 The Chairman. You do not believe that the American people 
 would like to be "buncoed" ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. No; and they generally know what they want. 
 Was that man who expressed that view from New York, Senator ? 
 
 The Chairman. There have been so many of them I can not tell. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. It Was such a provincial idea I thought it 
 might have come from New York. 
 
 Senator Bryan. I think the man was from Baltimore. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any other questions, gentlemen? 
 
 Senator Beistow. I would like to ask Mr. Bloomingdale if he does 
 not think that the Government ought to charge more for transporting 
 this merchandise a long distance than a short distance ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. No ; I do not. 
 
PARCEL POST. 999 
 
 Senator Bristow. It costs more to transport for the long distance 
 than the short distance. Why should not the Government charge 
 more for it ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I do not know that the difference in cost is 
 appreciable. If the cost were based on the distance traveled, I do not 
 think that the cost ought to be fixed on the minimum distance, but I 
 think a fair average should be adopted. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Then the express companies would take the 
 short hauls, where there is a profit, and leave the Government the long 
 hauls, where there is no profit, as they do now. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I am not satisfied that the express companies 
 can successfully compete on the short hauls even. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But they do it. We have the fact to confront 
 us. It is not a theory. 
 
 The Chairman. They make large profits. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. On the short haul. 
 
 The Chairman. In their general business. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I have been told that they do. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They let the Government take the long hauls 
 and they take the short hauls by cutting under the Government rate 
 enough to get it. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Perhaps they choose the business that is most 
 profitable and take that. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, we are simply enlarging their opportunity 
 to put the Government to that disadvantage and that burden and 
 expense. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. We certainly would be if you adopted the 
 zone system. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Then the Government would simply adopt their 
 plan of charging for the service rendered, so that if there was a profit 
 m the short haul we would get it, and a profit in the long haul, if there 
 is any, we would get that also; that would be upon the zone basis._ 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I do not think that the express companies 
 have adopted that principle. I think they have adopted the rule of 
 charging all the traffic will bear. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is true, but the theory is that they charge 
 for distance. As a matter of fact they charge what they can get, 
 but where there is competition they will charge more for a thousand 
 miles than for a hundred miles. The express companies do and the 
 railroad companies do. All transportation is based upon distance, 
 in theory, anyway. Of course, they take advantage of their power 
 sometimes to charge more than they ought to and charge what the 
 traffic will bear, but nobody defends that now. It is highway rob- 
 bery. It is only the people who want to take advantage of what is 
 unjust that defend a proposition like that. The theory of transporta- 
 tion is that the company transporting the commodity should get a 
 fair return for the service rendered. There is no just system of trans- 
 portation, in my view, upon any other basis. Now, why should not 
 the Government adopt that basis which appeals to everybody as 
 being a just and fair basis when it is transporting merchandise ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. If the cost of the service, I mean from the 
 beginning to the end of it, is found to be based on the distance trav- 
 ersed, then the distance traversed would be a fair measure of the 
 
1000 PARCEL POST. 
 
 charge, but if it shall be found that there is not a direct relation be- 
 tween the cost of the service and the distance traveled then some other 
 basis of a fair compensation must be found other than that for measur- 
 ing distance. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It seems to me that it would be a violent pre- 
 sumption to say that you could transport an article for a thousand 
 miles as cheaply as you could for a hundred miles. The cost for trans- 
 porting an article from New York to San Francisco is more to the 
 Government than for transporting the same article from New York 
 to Albany. Since we are handling merchandise then the charge 
 ought to be more from New York to San Francisco than from New 
 York to some point in New Jersey. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I do not think that follows as a natural 
 sequence. I think if their charge were based relatively on the dis- 
 tance that each particular unit traveled, the cost of sending the pack- 
 age from New York to Orange, N. J., would be almost as small a 
 fraction as the unit that the Standard Oil Co. shares were cut up into 
 in making the distribution to the fellow who had only one share. 
 You can not make the unit 1 mile and multiply that by 15 miles. 
 
 The Chairman. We have no such contention. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I want to try to answer as well as I can accord- 
 ing to my belief. If it were possible to figure in units according to 
 miles and make the minimum charge so that the man who has the 
 smallest unit of miles would not pay any more than his proportionate 
 cost of his entire bulk, then of course the man who had his merchan- 
 dise carried farther would pay a larger charge. But we are adopting 
 a fair average unit. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You would approximate that as nearly as prac- 
 ticable, would you not ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Yes; so that when you have multiplied the 
 postage charge or the postage unit by the number of packages, ap- 
 proximately, you cover the total cost of its delivery all over the 
 United States. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is entirely a different proposition. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. You do it by letter. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Letters and merchandise are entirely different 
 things, and I have understood that you have taken the same view of 
 it ; that is, that you would not put the transportation of merchandise 
 and letters upon the same basis. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. No; I regard one as of much more importance. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You can not divide the cost of transportation 
 of a 2-cent letter packet from one place to another, nor do I think 
 it is desirable that we should if we could, but when we go into the 
 express business we are taking up a different kind of business and that 
 should be treated in a different way. It is incident to the postal 
 service and conducted for the convenience of the people. It is the 
 transportation simply of merchandise. When we go into that field 
 it seems to me that the just and correct theory of transportation 
 should be followed by charging as nearly as practicable for the service 
 which we render. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I have been so anxious to answer your 
 questions didactically that I have been led away from this thought, 
 that we are doing it to-day; up to a 4-pound package we are doing 
 the same thing that you speak of now. The purpose of this bill is 
 
PARCEL- POST. 1001 
 
 not to change that at all, excepting to raise the unit rate of the pack- 
 age to make it conform to the unit rate adopted by other countries, 
 and the answer to the question that you have propounded will be 
 found in the way that you are doing business to-day in the fourth- 
 class matter. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But some of us think that the present system is 
 not a just one, and that when we change it and enlarge and improve 
 it we ought to make it better. 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. Well, I would want to have a good deal more 
 time and have a good deal more data to build up a theory and express 
 an opinion on that that I think would be of any service to you. I 
 think any opinion I might express on that now would not be of much 
 aid to you in reaching any conclusion. You are going to get that 
 information from experts along other lines. I have presented myself 
 here as an expert on certain lines, and on my information I nave 
 based certain opinions that I hope will be of service to the country. 
 Along those other economical lines that you have evidently given a 
 great deal of thought to I do not think I can express any opinion that 
 would be of service to you. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I have been interested in your expressions in 
 connection with the mail-order business from New York. It has 
 been very suggestive and interesting, I assure you. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any further viewpoints that you think 
 of, Mr. Bloomingdale, that you would care to submit to the committee ? 
 
 Mr. Bloomingdale. I think not, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. I wish to thank you, indeed, and I would like to 
 say that you have certainly submitted to us a lot of very valuable 
 information. 
 
 21845— vol 4—12—9 
 
TESTIMONY OF ME. REESE V. HICKS, PRESIDENT THE AMERICAN 
 POULTRY ASSOCIATION, TOPEKA, KANS. 
 
 The witness was first duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age, residence, and 
 present occupation, Mr. Hicks ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. I am 39 years old, live in Topeka, Kans., and am an 
 editor of poultry literature. I am also a poultryman — a practical 
 poultryman. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you appear before the committee as repre- 
 senting any association or organization in any official capacity ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. I do, as president of the American Poultry Association. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly explain, for the information of 
 the committee, the membership and how extensive the organization 
 may be ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. The membership is composed of three classes — what 
 we know as life members, members who agree to pay for a life mem- 
 bership; second, a class of membership known as local poultry 
 associations ; and a third class of membership, known as the specialty 
 clubs for the promotion of any particular breed or variety of poultry. 
 In the life class we have a membership of about 3,000, and that 
 membership is located in the United States mainly, in Canada 
 perhaps 300, in England perhaps 50, a few in Mexico, and some in 
 practically all the countries of the world. The membership of the 
 second class is composed of the poultry show associations that want 
 to hold shows under our rules, the supreme court of poultrydom, 
 you might say. We make and fix the rules under which these 
 shows must be held. There are over 12,000 of these shows in the 
 United States alone, all affiliated and working under our organiza- 
 tion. These local associations have a membership ranging from 50, 
 or perhaps 25, up to, say, 500. There is a show now being held in 
 Camden, N. J. 
 
 The Chairman. What would you say the total membership of your 
 second class in the United States is ? Have you got that information ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks It is not compiled, because it is a variable membership; 
 we have no reports whatever on that. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They vary, do they not ? They will drop out 
 one year and come in the next? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes. We have about forty-odd shows in the State of 
 Kansas this year, and Missouri has perhaps 80. The third class is 
 composed of the clubs. This also has a variable membership, 
 because some forty-odd clubs belong to the association, and they 
 range in membership from a few hundred, perhaps 200 would be the 
 smallest. They pay a dollar for the privilege of belonging. Then 
 there is also another branch of the industry known as the commercial 
 utility end, and quite a few of these people are affiliated with us. 
 
 The Chairman. What would you estimate the value of the poultry 
 business in the United States itself ? 
 1002 
 
PARCEL POST. 1003 
 
 Mr. Hicks. The entire business ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Taking in towns 1 
 
 The Chairman. Taking all the poultry business. 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Taking in the small towns and the small plots of less 
 than 5 acres, which are not computed in the census as incorporated 
 towns, I should estimate it to be about a billion or a billion and a 
 quarter dollars annually. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any figures which would enable you to 
 make anything like a reliable estimate as to the amount of capital 
 invested in the business as an industry ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. It is an industry of small amounts largely, and practi- 
 cally everybody is interested in it in a small way. It is almost 
 impossible to compile. Last year the estimate was $800,000, but I 
 thmk that is largely of farms, and small tracts and plats of 5 acres 
 or less do not count. 
 
 The Chairman. Only $800,000 ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. I beg your pardon, I mean $800,000,000. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That relates to those who are almost exclu- 
 sively in the business, does it not ? Does that take into consideration 
 all the farming poultry ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How can you give an estimate as to that ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. I beg your pardon, only the commercial end, not the 
 fancy end. There are no figures as to what the fancy poultry includes. 
 There is no way of obtaining them. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You take a farm anywhere in Kansas or Mis- 
 souri, where they have 100 chickens ; is that included in this estimate ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You get that from the census, do you ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes, sir; but it does not show the true value, because 
 they do not count the small tracts of land in the town as a farm, 
 and that is not covered at all in the census. An effort was made to 
 get that in the census, but we were unable to do so. Nor does that 
 include fancy poultry. This organization is largely made up of people 
 who breed poultry for standard-breed purposes, not only show 
 purposes, but to supply the breeders to the farmers. That is the 
 interest I am more particular in representing. 
 
 Senator Bristow. In a commercial way ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes, sir. Our people, of course, use the express very 
 largely not only in connection with the show business, which is 
 composed of about 1,200 shows in the United States, but also in 
 selling the stock and selling the eggs. In fact, this industry that 
 I represent is absolutely dependent on an efficient express service 
 and one reasonable in cost. 
 
 The Chairman. You have a membership in every State in the 
 Union? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes, sir. And in about 40 States we have affiliated 
 associations known as branches that work together for the promotion 
 of the industry and have general charge of it. 
 
 The Chairman. You are satisfied from correspondence and con- 
 versation with the representatives of the local associations affiliated 
 with you that you are able to represent clearly the views of all in 
 reference to their attitude toward an enlargement of the activity 
 
1004 PARCEL POST. 
 
 of our present parcel post as embodied under the fourth-class mail 
 operations of the Government ? , 
 
 Mr. Hicks. I can tell you better by telling you the history oi the 
 proposition. One of the gentlemen here, Mr. Cleveland, is chairman 
 of the committee that has been established for some years, known as 
 the "express committee." This committee was for the purpose of 
 securing proper express service and rates. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the express committee of your organiza- 
 tion? . . , . 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes, sir. In the history of our investigation we found 
 that we needed some relief along a number of lines. At the last 
 annual meeting of our association, held at Denver, which is a dele- 
 gated convention, the president of each of these branches having a 
 right to vote so much for each member of the local organization, 
 after thoroughly canvassing the situation they unanimously, with 
 but two protests, and they were not made on the floor, but were 
 made personally by gentlemen who were in the hardware business, 
 they adopted a resolution with considerable enthusiasm favoring a 
 parcel post and creating a committee to be known as the "parcel-post 
 committee," and Mr. Zimmer, who will appear before you, was 
 appointed chairman of that committee. After this parcel-post 
 committee was appointed the announcement of the appointment 
 was made in our 60 or more class periodicals in the United States, 
 that it was appointed at the national organization at Denver without 
 any protest whatever, that they had adopted this resolution and 
 that we favored parcel post as one of the things that we needed, and 
 that it was absolutely necessaty to the further growth of this branch 
 of our business. So far, as president of the organization, I have not 
 had a single protest, and I have had several hundred commendatory 
 pats on the shoulder about it. 
 
 The Chairman. About this resolution ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you a copy of the resolution ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. No, sir; I can obtain it, however, from the secretary 
 and send it to you. 
 
 The Chairman. If you will, please. 
 
 [Extract is given from Proceedings of the American Poultry Association, Thirty-sixth Annual Meeting, at 
 Denver, Colo., August, 1911. This extract was furnished later by Mr. Hicks.] 
 
 Mr. Curtis. The same condition exists in regard to the report of a special committee 
 of five on express rates and service and parcel post, and ■with your permission I would 
 like to read the report, and I will ask the stencgreapher to take it down, because this 
 is written in my own handwriting and it is hard to read. 
 
 Your special committee appointed by the executive board on this subject begs to 
 recommend as follows: 
 
 That it is the sense of this board that the American Poultry Association Ehall hence- 
 forth take an active part in the work of securing lower and more uniform rates on stock 
 and eggs shipped by express by poultrymen, especially stock and eggs of standard 
 quality; in obtaining more direct and favorable routings of shipments of this class; 
 and in obtaining better service on the part of the express companies in the prompt 
 and careful handling of all such shipments. 
 
 That this work shall be done through the office of the secretary of the American 
 Poultry Association, under the supervision of the president of the association, both 
 by direct efforts and also by systematic and thoroughgoing cooperation with blanches 
 of the association; that the president and secretary shall follow up each substantial 
 opportunity to secure lower express rates on standard poultry and eggs and more 
 favorable routings and better service, and shall call to their assistance in this, work 
 the branch association presidents and secretaries; that data and complaints shall be 
 
I'AiiUJSlj ±"U»X. 1UU0 
 
 collected and classified by these officers; that copies of such data and complaints shall 
 be kept on file by the secretary of the American Poultry Association; and that a report 
 relating to same shall be made to this board by the secretary of the association at each 
 annual meeting. 
 
 That it shall be the policy of the American Poultry Association to expend reasonable 
 sums of money in securing just treatment for its members at the hands of express com- 
 panies, even to the extent of sharing with individual or branch members the expense 
 of necessary litigation. 
 
 That full authority' be given to the president and secretary of the American Poultry 
 Association to cooperate with the executive boards of branch associations to make 
 test cases in protecting and obtaining the rights of members of this association when 
 same are ignored or have been flagrantly violated by express companies or their 
 Employees, agents, etc. 
 
 That a committee of nine on parcel-post promotion be appointed by the president 
 of the American Poultry Association, the duty of which committee shall be to do all 
 it reasonably can, both collectively and individually, to bring about the adoption by 
 the United States Government of the parcel post as a means of transporting small 
 packages of merchandise from seller to buyer; that this committee be instructed to 
 cooperate fully with the branch associations and members thereof, including an active 
 anil persistent campaign of education and promotion among Congressmen and United 
 States Senators in all parts of the country. 
 Respectfully submitted by your committee. 
 
 Gkant M. Curtis, Chairman. 
 
 Reese V. Hicks. 
 
 David A. Nichols. 
 
 Thos. F. McGrew. 
 
 E. C. Branch. 
 I move its adoption. 
 
 President Hicks. You have heard the report. It is moved that it be adopted. 
 Those in favor let it be known by saying "Aye " ; those opposed "No." So ordered. 
 
 Mr. Hicks. We appointed this committee, which was instructed to 
 adopt and do whatever they thought best. They agreed that a cer- 
 tain bill would come nearer to serving our purpose. 
 
 The Chairman. What bill? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. The Sulzer bill, I believe. 
 
 The Chairman. Did you have that bill before your committee ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes, sir; with a number of other bills we were investi- 
 gating. 
 
 The Chairman. Was that bill before the convention when the reso- 
 lution was adopted ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. No; it was not. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the consensus of opinion in the convention 
 was simply an adoption approving an increased activity of a parcel 
 post? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Your reasons for favoring it, Mr. Hicks — that is, 
 your organization, I mean — were what? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Well, our main reason is that all the other countries 
 have something similar, and we think it is a measure that makes a 
 good start in the right direction, perhaps not going far enough to suit 
 some of us; but it is a measure that will in a way solve some of the 
 difficulties. 
 
 The Chairman. And, primarily, you believe it would be an 
 increased transportation facility for the operation of your special line 
 of business ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes, sir. We believe it will enable us to have two 
 means of doing business, especially in the shipment of eggs and single 
 birds; also, we think a great deal of our complaint is on the service. 
 Express-company service is not what we think it should be. In the 
 
1006 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 case of a bird that is valued at $150 or $750 it is very important that 
 that bird be sent home in good shape. 
 
 The Chairman. You would ship that bird anyhow by express if you 
 had the opportunity, and not by parcel post unless you were able to 
 insure delivery of the bird up to $150 or $750 ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. But, on the other hand, it would not be smothered with 
 perhaps 300 packages all around it. We think it would increase the 
 efficiency of the service. That is a narrow view of the matter, how- 
 ever. Our people are largely suburban people and have absolutely 
 no delivery, you might say, from the express people. They are people 
 of moderate means and people that are not looked after and not able 
 frequently to spare the time to go to town. We think the people 
 along the rural routes should have not only the right to send their 
 stuff by parcel post, but to get in anything they want like seeds or 
 shipping tags or leg bands or many things that they are compelled 
 to buy during the busy season. 
 
 The Chairman. You feel that as long as the Government already 
 has the machinery in operation that is not running at its full peak it 
 should be utilized for the benefit of the rural delivery in cooperating 
 with the private interests in transporation? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Most emphatically we do. 
 
 The Chairman. Both from a general-welfare and a business stand- 
 point ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes, sir; both. Then also we find competition along 
 certain lines very strong from England, especially in certain breeds. 
 They are able to deliver stuff here prepaid 
 
 The Chairman. Cheaper than you can in your own county? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. We do not know whether it is cheaper or not. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What do they deliver ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. They advertise to deliver eggs by express; 15 for $5, 
 for instance, but their local agents in this country tell us that those 
 eggs come here by parcel post. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is that correct? 
 
 The Chairman. I think very probably it is. 
 
 Mi\ Hicks. 1 can file a circular showing that. I do not know any- 
 thing about how it is worked, but they claim that. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I think we should have an explanation as to 
 how that is done. 
 
 The Chairman. That will appear in the hearings later on. 
 
 Mr. Hicks. I do not claim to be an expert on postage, or parcel 
 post, or express. 
 
 The Chairman. That information will appear in the data collated 
 from foreign countries. Do you feel that this is an increased activ- 
 ity by increasing weight and decreasing postage on fourth-class mail 
 matter and that it would benefit people generally throughout the 
 country in addition to a direct benefit to your special line of business ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes, sir; I should think it would. I know it would 
 mean to our people a tremendous, immediate, financial benefit as well 
 as being, a social benefit, I should say. They would be enabled to 
 get stuff when they needed it more promptly and get what they 
 needed. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You speak of receiving articles not only such as 
 would be produced as a poultry man, but household necessities and 
 
PABOEL POST. 1007 
 
 other art'cles, which a suburban or a local citizen needs. This would 
 offer him a facility which he does not now enjoy. 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes, sir; but more particularly our reason for adopt- 
 ing this resolution was that we felt that our business was hampered 
 in a way by our transportation facilities, and we are at a disadvan- 
 tage in comparison with people in other countries. My personal 
 talks and correspondence with people in industries in other countries 
 have affirmed that view, a personal view, however. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any idea, Mr. Hicks, as to the number 
 of our citizens who make the raising of poultry their main business ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. It would be a hard question to answer. I have no 
 positive information. I have some general ideas. 
 
 The Chairman. You assume that nearly every resident of the 
 country — that is, suburban resident — is interested to a greater or 
 less degree in poultry ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes, sir. Not only does this apply to the people of 
 the country, but it applies also to the people of the towns. We all 
 know that eggs constitute one of the most important parts of our 
 diet in America. In England they can deliver eggs right to your 
 home. We think that this parcel post will enable a special product 
 to be gotten on the market if the rate can be fixed low enough. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the general method, as far as you know, 
 for the transaction of the poultry business, especially the egg fea- 
 ture ? Are they assembled at a depot and then shipped to a town, 
 to a commission merchant, or to a cold-storage plant, or are they 
 distributed to the consumers direct ? . 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Practically altogether assembled; very little direct 
 business. I should say that there is a great big feature here that 
 the average man does not appreciate in the amount of business, as 
 we speak of it, as the standard breed express business. For instance, 
 there are going on to-day in this country 40 or 50 poultry shows; 
 one at Baltimore, one at Atlanta, Ga., one at Buffalo, N. Y., and so 
 on. At the Baltimore show they have practically 200 birds. Eighty 
 per cent of those birds were shipped in by express. 
 
 The Chairman. They would still do that, would they not, even 
 if you had a parcel-post service, because of the value of the birds, 
 unless you had an insurance policy with the Government? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. On the other hand, we think the express service would 
 be better. It would take a lot of work off of the express people, and 
 they seem to be hard pushed now. 
 
 The Chairman. Then it is altruism that is controlling your favoring 
 this idea in this instance ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. It is a matter of cold-blooded business. We want 
 better service. We are willing to pay the rate. If a man has a bird 
 that he sends to the poultry show that is valued up to $10 he is 
 willing to pay the rate, but he wants the service, and we have an 
 idea that that will enable us to get better service. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the considerable feature is to introduce a 
 transportation facility not now existing, where the railroads and 
 express companies do not reach the country ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. That is the great point we favor, and because it will 
 enable our people in the suburban towns to do more business and get a 
 service they do not get now. 
 
1008 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. You also feel that you are suffering an injustice 
 where we give greater benefits to foreign countries than we do to our 
 own citizens ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. We do. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you feel that this is a subject that would 
 require the appointment of a commission for the study of conditions 
 abroad, or would you prefer to have action taken by Congress at the 
 earliest possible date ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes, sir; I would not want any commission. It seems 
 to me that it is a question that other nations have solved ahead of us. 
 
 The Chairman. Then your organization, as far as you know, are 
 strongly opposed to the idea of trie appointment of a commission for 
 making a special study of this subject, and you believe that machinery 
 of the Government is provided through Congress to do this work? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes, sir; personally I would be strongly opposed to it. 
 I think we need relief, and we need it at the earliest possible moment. 
 At the Baltimore show T met a lady from England who was exhibit- 
 ing in this country. She was surprised to find that we were dependent 
 altogether on our one system of shipments — the express people. Her 
 comment on our system was not very good, probably because she was 
 not used to our methods. She saw detects that I have not seen in our 
 system here. 
 
 The Chairman. In the poultry business is the bulk of the poultry 
 itself for market, not your fancy birds, killed or shipped alive? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. The bulk of it, I should judge, is killed. 
 
 The Chairman. The killed birds — are they shipped by express or 
 shipped by freight ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Very largely cold storage. 
 
 The Chairman. And go by freight ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes; I think so. 
 
 The Chairman. This same condition would continue, would it not, 
 even with an enlargement of the present activity of the parcel post, 
 as represented under the fourth-class mail privilege ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. That depends upon the rate you put upon your parcel 
 post. Now, dressed fowl and eggs could not stand an 8-cent per 
 pound rate. The consumer will not pay the difference to have a 
 strictly fresh product direct from the producer. He will not pay the 
 8 cents a dozen, which is practically 8 cents a pound. I do not think 
 it would have a great influence on the commercial end of it, except 
 as a general benefit to the country. 
 
 The Chairman. A general benefit to the country and a direct 
 benefit to you, to enable you to get your supplies in rather than ship 
 your products out ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. No; we could slup a good deal of our products out by 
 parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. You said at 8 cents a pound the rate would be 
 prohibitive ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. You are speaking of the commercial end. I was speak- 
 ing from the viewpoint of a man that uses eggs for breeding purposes. 
 
 The Chairman. You make a distinction in the two classes of busi- 
 ness; one is the fancy business and the other is the regular business? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Surely. 
 
 The Chairman. So it would be of direct benefit to you in the fancy 
 business ? 
 
PARCEL POST. 1009 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Absolutely, and I think in the commercial end if it 
 were low enough so that we could afford to do this direct business. 
 
 The Chairman. But so far as the killed foul represented the bulk 
 of the poultry business in value and in weight, that would continue 
 going at freight rates ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Unless a low enough rate was made the bulk would 
 continue, because the established methods of trade, I do not think, 
 can be revolutionized by any special measure. Cold storage has been 
 ,built up simply because the express rates were so high that the man 
 could not afford to ship an individual fowl or individual dozen of 
 eggs and the fact that he could not afford to carry them to the express 
 office. 
 
 The Chairman. Has it not also been built up because of the assem- 
 bling feature and the keeping of the material itself in warm weather ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes, sir ; on any distance shipment, but from New Jer- 
 sey, portions of Maryland, New York State, and a lot of territory 
 around here, there is no reason why we should not ship eggs and 
 dressed fowls direct to the consumer for a circuit of a few hundred 
 miles, if the rates were so we could afford to. A man living in the 
 pity could get a fresher supply direct, but he can not afford to pay 
 25 or 50 cents for the fowl, and the producer can not afford to haul 
 it to the express office. In my own territory, Kansas City, if a man 
 got as far up as Lawrence, 40 miles away, at a rate on eggs at 5 cents 
 a dozen 
 
 The Chairman. How much does a dozen of eggs weigh ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Less than a pound. If he had that rate he could afford 
 to ship them to individual consumers in St. Joseph or Denver. He 
 could mail off the rural routes. 
 
 The Chairman. He would mail 11 pounds of eggs if he had the 
 privilege of doing it, and pay a little less than 5 cents a pound ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. But he could not afford to lose two or three hours 
 driving down to town. 
 
 The Chairman. In a shipment of eggs which you make today, 
 which I assume are in boxes, with partitions provided, you have to 
 pay for your box and pay for the partitions in between each egg. 
 What does the case weigh? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. I do not know what the weight of a full case of com- 
 mercial eggs is. A regular shipment case of eggs contains 30 dozens. 
 That would not be conveyed by parcel post, but the proposition I am 
 speaking of, there are more and more people becoming educated to 
 the fact that their eggs are not at all eggs; there is a difference. 
 
 The Chairman. Anyone who eats them will realize that in a very 
 short time. 
 
 Mr. Hicks. There is a premium from 5 to 10 cents a dozen on fresh 
 eggs. There is a carton that holds a dozen. It is made of corrugated 
 pasteboard. It is very light. It does not affect the egg proposition. 
 Those people deliver their eggs to central points, say in New York, 
 and a large producer can afford to do that. 
 
 The Chairman. In boxes containing a dozen ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. No; he delivers them in maybe 30, 40, or 50 dozen. 
 
 The Chairman. But each dozen in a box by itself % 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes, sir; sealed with a paper and his name on it. That 
 will go to the clubs and the hotels and other people who want them. 
 They bring a premium. The small producer can not afford to do that, 
 
1010 PARCEL. POST. 
 
 because his product is not big enough to enable him to carry it to town. 
 If we had a parcel post there is a great field for him by mailing in to 
 the towns from his farm those eggs if the price was not too high. 
 
 The Chairman. A factor also in your transaction would be the cost 
 of the case, would it not ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. That is very small. I have not the figures at hand. 
 
 The Chairman. The packet that you have in mind, however, is one 
 of a series that goes into a wooden box. If it went by itself, and the 
 packet had to bear the risk incident to the transportation and the 
 handling, it would have to be of a more substantial nature than the 
 one that you utilize now, in your present operation, so that the cost 
 would be increased ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. I buy eggs and pay 10 cents above the market price for 
 them. Mr. Cleveland delivers from his farm in New Jersey. He will 
 ship to the central store from which I am buying perhaps 20 dozen 
 eggs. Each dozen is in a corrugated box. My name is on that pack- 
 age, the producer's name is on the package, and they are sealed and 
 each egg shipment is stamped by the firm's name. That is done by- 
 express entirely. We feel that there is a field for the small producer 
 around the large centers of population. We could mail in a few dozen 
 direct, either to the merchant or to the consumer himself, if our mai 
 service was practically an express service. 
 
 The committee thereupon, at 1.30 o'clock p. m., took a recess until. 
 2.30 o'clock. 
 
 AFTER RECESS. 
 
 The committee met, at the expiration of the recess, at 2.30 o'clock 
 p. m. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF ME. REESE V. HICKS— Continued. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Hicks, if you will continue and give the com- 
 mittee the benefit of any views that you may have relative to the sub- 
 ject of enlarging the scope of our parcel-post system we will be glad 
 to hear from you. 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Well, to be frank, I have not studied the question 
 enough to give you anything that would be of value, except as a mat- 
 ter of opinion coming from one who lives in the country. 
 
 The Chairman. You have nothing to add to the information and 
 views you have already submitted? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. No, sir; except I would like to speak of one thing, and 
 that is to speak of the viewpoint of the West m regard to the mail- 
 order houses and the local merchants. 
 
 The Chairman. We would like very much to have your views on 
 that. 
 
 Mr. Hicks. As a matter of opinion, I think that one thing that has 
 built up the large western mail-order houses when the eastern mail- 
 order houses have not been able to succeed, has been this: If a 
 farmer — and the farming element are largely the buyers from the 
 mail-order houses— needs an article he can not get in his local store, 
 he gets the catalogue from the mail-order house, and in order to get 
 that one article by express he would probably have to pay on the 
 100-pound rate or the minimum rate at least, and he then proceeds 
 to follow up his order with enough goods to make it large enough so 
 
PARCEL POST. 1011 
 
 that the rate will not be so high. A great many of the mail-order 
 houses press that particular feature, and the result is the buyer buys 
 more largely from the mail-order man than he intended to when he 
 first started in. The element of profit from the western order comes 
 in from the size, and the mail-order house can fill that one order, for 
 say 10 articles, with practically the same overhead charges that he 
 would fill a single order from the east or the nearby shipments. 
 Mail-order shipments, in my experience, require a great deal of book- 
 keeping and red tape. If there is a big order there is a little more 
 profit, and I think that is one of the explanations why it is possible 
 the western mail-order houses are succeeding, which is not quite so 
 true with regard to the houses in the East. 
 
 The Chairman. Another strong feature in the mail-order business 
 is the fact that the purchaser either assembles a lot of orders for 
 himself and buys more than he otherwise would, because he gets a 
 better rate for 100 pounds, or he goes to his neighbors and gets them 
 to join with him in order to participate in the lower rate? 
 ■(. Mr. Hicks. Yes, sir; he does both. Another element we have 
 largely through the western country is the telephone and I think in 
 time with the parcel post it will really develop the country merchant's 
 business a good deal if he could get the larger package delivered right 
 out on the route; I think he will stand his own, and in fact I am a firm 
 believer that no legislation can absolutely change the avenues of trade, 
 but in a reasonable length of time they will adjust themselves gradu- 
 ally to it. That, of course, is a matter of personal opinion and obser- 
 vation, rather than of testimony. 
 
 The Chairman. You have found in your contract with the country 
 merchant universal opposition to any enlargement of our present 
 parcel-post facilities ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. I could not say universal, but there is a good deal; the 
 majority of them oppose it. 
 
 The Chairman. Do they submit any argument in support of their 
 opposition ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Well, the selfish argument that they think it will 
 destroy their business. 
 
 The Chairman. Based on the fear that it may ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes; that it may. They, think they could not stand 
 competition with the mail-order houses. I had two members of our 
 association protest on that ground, and only two. A gentleman met 
 me in Philadelphia and talked with me — I do not remember his name 
 or address — who said he was a merchant and that he was sorry we had 
 taken that step. I talked the matter over with him thoroughly, and 
 finally he said, "I believe your view is a little broader and more prac- 
 tical than my own. " He further said, "My personal views were along 
 certain lines." 
 
 The Chairman. Are manymembers of your organization merchants? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. They are in all professions, in all walks of life; I should 
 say there are quite a few of them. 
 
 • The Chairman. And there are only two membeis of your organiza- 
 tion, so far as you know, who are opposed to the enlargement of the 
 parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes. I would not say there are not others, for there 
 may be, but those resolutions were passed and published in practically 
 
1012 PARCEL POST. 
 
 all the poultry and trade papers, and there are about sixty-odd 
 papers. 
 
 The Chairman. And there are only two protests that have come in 
 against the resolution which your organization has adopted ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Don't you think a great many merchants would 
 not oppose the parcel post as vigorously as they do if they did not 
 have the idea that it would be operated on a flat rate all over tKe 
 United States, -so that a mail-order house in Chicago could ship goods 
 into their town for just the same rate that they would have to pay 
 if they sent out 10 or 15 miles. 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Well, I could not say, but I do say, as a matter of per- 
 sonal opinion in talking to merchants, I think these two members 
 that are opposed might take that view. I got those two men down 
 to argument as to what they were doing in other countries — I am 
 referring to these two hardware men, one living in South Bend, Ind.. 
 and the other in Oklahoma — they quoted information they had 
 gotten from a member of their association who had gone abroad 
 investigating the proposition. They said this man had investigated 
 the subject abroad and he reported unfavorably, and when I gave him 
 the result of my correspondence with English poultry men and what 
 it developed, and what we thought of it from the viewpoint of the 
 poultry man, they said they did not know whether it would or not. 
 As to the zone system, I haven't heard much outside of that. 
 
 The Chairman. It has not been much discussed, has it ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. No, sir; it has not. Personally, I like the idea if it 
 can be worked out without too much complication and detail. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is, you think it is a more just system of 
 transportation ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. Yes; I think the charges are more just, but I think, 
 perhaps, it would cause less opposition and perhaps be a very good 
 try out, as we call it in advertising. 
 
 The Chairman. In your official position as head of this organiza- 
 tion, having some 60 papers bearing particularly with the business 
 of your organization, the poultry business, would you or not be more 
 or less familiar with the clientele of those papers and the practical 
 operation of them ? In other words, would you be in a position to be 
 cognizant of the fact if they Teceived any support or payments from 
 any mail-order houses or any railroads to support the question of 
 enlarging the present scope of our parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. I would. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you please state for the information of the 
 committee whether any contribution, directly or indirectly, to your 
 knowledge, has been paid to any one of the 60 papers mentioned by 
 you by any mail order catalogue house or railroad ? 
 _ Mr. Hicks. I should say there has not, and in the way of adver- 
 tising I should say they can not afford to use that class of publica- 
 tions, because our rates are too high. 
 
 The Chairman. But nothing in the way of subsidy of any kind? 
 
 Mr. Hicks. No, indeed. They are a very independent class of pub- 
 lications, the most independent I have ever come in contact with, 
 in fact. 
 
 The Chairman. My question in no manner intends to convey any 
 criticism of a paper, but I simply want to get information for the 
 
PARCEL POST. 1013 
 
 benefit of the committee either affirming or dispelling the claims 
 made before the committee that there was an organized movement 
 on foot backed by money, in the way of subsidizing of the press 
 supporting this principle. 
 
 Mr. Hicks. I think in the beginning I gave the reasons why we 
 adopted this resolution, that we had a standing committee for a 
 number of years trying to adjust this matter and get satisfactory 
 rates, and the investigation of the committee led them up to this 
 parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any further views ? 
 
 Mr. Hick's. I have nothing further. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee is very much obliged to you. 
 
TESTIMONY OF CHARLES D. CLEVELAND, CHAIRMAN EXPRESS 
 COMMITTEE, AMERICAN POULTRY ASSOCIATION. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Cleveland, it will be necessary that you first 
 be sworn. 
 
 Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Kindly state your full name, age, residence, and 
 present occupation, Mr. Cleveland. 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Charles D. Cleveland; West Orange, N. J.; 
 poultryman and lawyer. 
 
 The Chairman. You are a member of the American Poultry 
 Association % 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. I am, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you occupy any official position in the organi- 
 zation ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Yes; I am a member of what is known as the 
 executive committee and chairman of what is also known as the 
 express committee, and a member of the parcel-post committee. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state for the information of the 
 committee the difference in functions of what is known as the express 
 committee and what is known as the parcel-post committee — the 
 distinction between the two ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. The express committee has been for a number of 
 years endeavoring to investigate actual complaints from shippers of 
 fancy or market poultry and eggs, or giievances which arise from poor 
 shipments by the express companies, and they are endeavoring by its 
 influence to get better facilities in the way of express service, whereas 
 the parcel-post committee was drawn into the investigation of the 
 question of a so-called parcel post by reason of the abuses which 
 we found to exist in investigating express matters. 
 
 The Chairman. It was rather a development, then, as a remedy 
 for the evils which you thought existed under the investigation of 
 your express committee ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. It was; one committee was an outcome of the 
 other. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly favor the committee with your 
 views relative to the desirability or nondesirability of increasing the 
 present scope of our parcel post as embodied under the fourth-class 
 mail privilege? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. We believe that a parcel post will materially assist 
 in many directions in our business. I do not wish to go into any dis- 
 cussion as to what we have found to be abuses in the express service 
 as applied to our business, because the committee is, of course, thor- 
 oughly familiar with all of the arguments I might present on that 
 Eornt ; but I desire to call your attention to some phase of the poultry 
 usiness, with reference to its magnitude, which perhaps the committee 
 is not thoroughly familiar with. What I want to speak of very briefly 
 is what is known as the baby-chick business, or day-old chicken busi- 
 ness, the shipment of fancy eggs for hatching, and the shipment of 
 1014 
 
PARCEL POST. 1015 
 
 market poultry and single birds, or specimens for shows. I believe 
 that it is little understood that the baby-chick business has reached a 
 very large magnitude; the nearest estimate that we can make with 
 reference to the number of day-old chicks which are sold profitably in 
 the country is about 200,000,000; that is a very large number of live 
 chickens to be shipped. I personally am attorney for a number of 
 large poultry firms, one in particular, which turned out .during the 
 past season upward of 180,000 day-old chickens. 
 
 The Chairman. Located where 'I 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Browns Mills, N. J. 
 
 The Chairman. The names ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. The Rancocas Poultry Farm. Strangely enough, 
 these day-old chickens may be shipped with safety to almost any dis- 
 tance, provided they are not fed before being shipped, and they are 
 shipped in almost all cases in paper containers with supplied ventila- 
 tion, there being holes or slits in the sides of the packages, and rarely 
 is it that they arrive with any birds dead if properly handled. 
 
 The Chairman. The temperature of the car or the outside having 
 no bearing on the matter ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Some bearing, but not very great, on account of 
 the protection of the chicks in the container. But many shipments 
 of day-old chicks have been found to arrive with practically all of the 
 contents dead, owing to the fact that they were surrounded while in 
 the express car with other packages, which completely shut out the 
 air and smothered the contents. These baby chicks are shipped gen- 
 erally from 50 to 200 chicks in a parcel, and a great many — I can not 
 say the number, of course — are shipped 50 in a parcel. 
 
 The Chairman. What would be the dimensions of a parcel con- 
 taining 50 chicks in a hamper ? 
 a Mr. Cleveland. Roughly speaking, about 14 inches square. 
 
 The Chairman. The weight ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Fifty chicks, I believe, would weigh approximately 
 4 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the nature of the parcel containing the 
 chicks, the assembling parcel ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. It is paper fiber board, I think, so called — a thick 
 paper box. 
 
 The Chairman. Capable of some rough handling? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Considerable rough handling; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. The cost of the package ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. About one-tenth of a cent a chick. 
 
 The Chairman. That is 5 cents for the containing parcel ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Yes. The value of the chicks would be from 12 
 to 18 cents; that would be about the average, but there are some few 
 shipments smaller perhaps than 50, or perhaps I might say smaller 
 than 100, where chickens would be valued at as much as $1.65 each 
 to $1.75 each, those being fancy chickens hatched from fancy eggs. 
 
 The Chairman. The enlargement of the scope of the present 
 parcel-post service would not in any way broaden your market, but 
 simply cheapen your shipments ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. It would broaden the market in this way: There 
 are many men whom we call small breeders, almost back-yard 
 fanciers, so to speak, who with a parcel post could ship 50, or 75, or 
 100 shipments by parcel post, whereas now they can not afford to 
 ship any. 
 
1016 PAECEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. That would be the lower cost of transportation, 
 How is it going to broaden your market ? You would have to work 
 up a constant sale for this particular line of business, your day-old- 
 chick business ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think your customers would be increased 
 in numbers if you were able to send 25 chicks in a box, whereas under 
 the present machinery you are obliged to send 50 ? . 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Yes ; and also in this way, the breeder can adver- 
 tise that he will sell day-old chicks. Many of these men can not 
 afford either the time or the money to go to the express office, but if 
 they can send a small package or a large one by a parcel post and have 
 it delivered, they can advertise and go into the business on a small 
 scale, as it may be, to raise day-old chickens, whereas now they can 
 not do it. 
 
 The Chairman. Could these assembling packages containing 50 
 chicks be put into a mail pouch with safety ? It would smother the 
 chicks, wouldn't it ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Probably it would. 
 
 The Chairman. Consequently a special provision would have to be 
 originated or initiated or adopted by the Government in order to 
 handle this particular line? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. They could not be shipped in mail pouches. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think wicker hampers would give plenty 
 of air? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Ideal for the purpose. Shall I continue ? 
 
 The Chairman. If you will, kindly. 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. This business of selling day-old chickens is really 
 in its infancy in this country, as evidenced by the increase in the sale 
 of what are known as mammoth incubators — that is, incubators hold- 
 ing from twelve hundred to forty or fifty thousand eggs at one hatching. 
 
 The Chairman. One incubator holding 50,000 eggs ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Ye?, sir. Thejr are run by coal stoves, and not by 
 lamps, and run in houses specially made for the purpose. 
 
 The Chairman. Where do they get the eggs ? They are assembled, 
 I take it? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Yes. For example, the Rancocas Poultry Farm, 
 to which I referred, has two incubator cellars, each 200 by 60 feet, 
 with a hatching capacity of 100,000 chicks at one time. That is 
 now done by what are known as lamp incubators, the heat being sup- 
 
 Elied bjr kerosene lamps ; but they are now installing mammoth incu- 
 ators to hold 40,000 eggs in one cellar, and another one in another 
 cellar to hold 40,000 eggs. These mammoth incubators are used very 
 much as the Egyptians used them, for what is known as custonl 
 hatching — that is, the farmers or poultrymen in the vicinity send 
 their eggs to the central hatchery, where they are hatched for them 
 at so much per chick or per egg; and at the proper time, at the 
 expiration of three weeks, they go to the hatchery, obtain their 
 chicks, and take them home. 
 The Chairman. This is the Egyptian system ? 
 Mr. Cleveland. The Egyptian system. The Egyptian system is 
 apparently a very crude, though successful system of hatching. Where 
 anciently they gave to the customer three chicks for every four eggs 
 supplied, in this country they have not been able to reach a degree 
 
PARCEL POST. 1017 
 
 of perfection so great as the ancient Egyptians, but perhaps we will 
 be able to arrive at it in time. The small man in the poultry business, 
 the lady, the child, who desires a few chickens because his or her 
 father wants to gratify the child's wish, form part of the class of 
 persons who buy these day-old chicks. They are hatched very 
 largely at Easter time, for example, and at Christmas, at a time when 
 it is impossible to have a natural hatch of chickens, when the hens 
 do not set at that time of the year, and they are coming into vogue 
 in small shipments of that kind. That is another branch of the day- 
 old chick business which is just beginning to be used as a legitimate 
 business, and it is very profitable. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you say it had some educational develop- 
 ment in the care that the child gives to the chick, etc. ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. I think it will. I understand in the public 
 schools in some localities chicken raising and rearing is being taught. 
 
 The Chairman. I will say that I think it does. It appeals to me 
 as having a good influence. 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Well, many persons are under the belief that the 
 so-called poultry business is a very easy and profitable business, but 
 I think it will be found to be of interest and will instruct even the 
 most intelligent and mature if they once start in it. 
 
 The Chairman. This is most interesting, I think. 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Well, it is perhaps not as well known as it might 
 be; that is, the extent of the business, the magnitude of it, and in 
 our judgment, having been associated with perhaps the leading and 
 largest breeders of the country in the poultry industry in these 
 directions — that is, the cheap end of the poultry business, not the 
 the fancy stock end, but the day- old chick and the market poultry end 
 of the business — we think it is only in its infancy. 
 
 Senator Bristow. These large incubators that do a mail-order 
 business in chicken hatching are for the purpose of economizing on 
 the use of the hens ? They work her full time laying eggs and do not 
 allow her to set at all? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Yes; they do not let her set. Many of the most 
 profitable varieties will not set, naturally. 
 
 The Chairman. I would like you to elucidate on that. You say 
 many of the profitable varieties, if I understood you, will not set? 
 You mean the hens will not set themselves ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. The so-called Mediterranean varieties are what 
 are known as nonsetters. The white leghorn, perhaps, is used more 
 than any other breed in this market for laying, and the white leghorn 
 has practically lost the art of setting. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You do not think the shipping of day-old chicks 
 by mail long distances in mail cars, etc., would be practical? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Yes, sir; absolutely. They are shipped almost 
 any distanca by express and go in a car perhaps not as well ventilated 
 as* a mail car. They can be shipped anywhere where a small supply 
 of oxygen can reach the container. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is there more risk in shipping eggs than the 
 chicks ? 
 
 ; Mr. Cleveland. I can only answer by saying that so far as our 
 experience goes it is safer to ship chickens than the eggs. 
 '" Senator Bristow. It is ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Yes, sir. 
 
1018 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. When you ship a setting of eggs from Connecti- 
 cut somewhere to Kansas, "frequently many of them hatch. Do I 
 understand it would be more practical to ship, say, 13 day-old chicks 
 than 13 eggs ? You would gat more live chicks, would 3 T ou ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Yes, sii . That is the reason for the day-old chick 
 business. That is the real reason why the hatching of chickens in 
 that way has sprung up. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there not another factor, and that is that the 
 purchaser knows what he gets when he gets 13 chickens, but doesn't 
 know what he is getting when he buys 13 eggs? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Yes; that is another 'actor. He can see the 
 chickens. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It seems to one who is not familiar with the busi- 
 ness that by using the hamper it would be entirely practical to ship 
 them short distances with ease by a parcel post, the same as you 
 would ship a package of farm products to the city, but I thought if 
 you put it into a mail car and jammed it about as the mail ordinarily 
 is, there would be danger of destroying them? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Of course, turning the box over rapidly or jarring 
 it violently will no doubt affect the contents very much, because the 
 contents are alive, but strangely enough we find the day-old chickens 
 are very hardy, they have a tremendous amount of natural strength 
 and resistance if healthy when hatched, and they will stand a great 
 deal more hard usage and live and grow; in fact they will stand much 
 more hard usage than will eggs, no matter how well the latter may be 
 packed. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose six days were consumed from the time of 
 shipment to the time or delivery in the hamper of day-old chicks, how 
 would they be fed in the interim ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. They would be dead. Six days would be too long. 
 
 The Chairman. Wnat would be your maximum period ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. I should say about four days. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you put feed in the container ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. No, sir; they are not fed. They do not require 
 anything for 72 hours after hatching. 
 
 The Chairman. Not even water ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. No, sir. The reason for that is, that when a young 
 chicken is hatched, a portion of the yolk of the egg is attached to the 
 navel, and before the chicken can properly eat and digest that yolk 
 must be absorbed by the chick, which is done rather gradually. 
 
 The Chairman. That is food and moisture, then ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Yes. I would qualify by saying the greater 
 portion of the yolk of the egg is absorbed by the chicken just prior 
 to emerging from the shell, and that food has to be assimilated— if 
 you can use that word with poultry — before the chicken should be fed. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Would you contemplate the shipment of full- 
 grown chickens also by a parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you think that is practicable ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. I can see no reason why it should not be. The 
 birds are shipped in very compact boxes, paper being used a great 
 deal now as the container for sending single birds. 
 
 The Chairman. Corrugated paper ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Yes; with reenforced bottoms to the boxes. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1019 
 
 Senator Bristow. What is the express rate from a point in New 
 Jersey, we will say, to Iowa or Missouri or Kansas, on chickens ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. I can not tell you, Senator Bristow, what it is, 
 for I do not know. I would not care to guess. I do not remember. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Would the care and attention in the handling 
 of chickens necessarily be more, and therefore the expense be more, 
 than the ordinary handling of merchandise ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Slightly more; yes. It would always eventuate 
 that more care must be given to something alive than something 
 dead, something inert. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Wouldn't that probably necessitate a classifi- 
 cation of rates charged as to the ordinary merchandise and then live 
 animals ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. It would seem that it might, because perhaps a 
 slight degree of special service might be required, and the rate paid 
 should be commensurate with the service given, I should suppose. 
 It ought to. be. But we have found, if I may answer your question 
 further, that the service now rendered by the express companies is 
 not commensurate with the prices paid. 'We have to pay a rate and 
 a half for a shipment of live poultry, except when shipped in what is 
 known as a market poultry crate — a slat crate, which you often see 
 on the cars and platforms — and many times they arrive smothered 
 or injured by being thrown about very violently or covered with 
 articles, because it is hard for the chicken to breathe if it does not 
 get a sufficient amount of air. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you ever tried to claim damages from the 
 express companies ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Yes, sir; we have had a number of suits against 
 the express companies, not through the association, but through its 
 members individually. One suit has just been decided in Indiana, 
 on appeal, where a Mr. Byers, of Hazelrig, Ind., shipped certain birds 
 to the Jamestown Exposition, known as Black Orpingtons. I hap- 
 
 f«ned to be there when the birds arrived, smothered, 7 out of the 9. 
 n that case no receipt had been given by the local agent, for certain 
 reasons which it will not be necessary for me to mention here to the 
 committee. The birds arrived smothered, and Mr. Byers has just 
 received $1,000 for those birds. We have been waiting with a num- 
 ber of other suits for a decision on the appeal of Mr. Byers 's case. 
 
 The Chairman. Were the containers broken ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. No, sir; they were so-called up-to-date modern 
 shipping coops, supplying naturally as much oxygen as the birds 
 require. The shipment of single specimens or pairs, or what is 
 known as trios, three birds, by a parcel post, seems to us to be per- 
 fectly feasible. 
 
 Senator Bristow. We would have to increase the limit above 11 
 pounds if you shipped three light Brahmas. 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. You would, but not if you shipped three Sea- 
 bright bantams. We also find it is very difficult, amongst many of 
 our members, to get deliveries to their place by express companies. 
 In my own case, right near the city of New York, I live in West 
 Orange, N. J., and I find this difficulty: The Orange Mountain 
 intervenes between my farms and the valley below, where Orange 
 is, and where the express office nearest me is located. The express 
 company will deliver as far as my house in Llewellyn Park, but it 
 
1020 PABCEL POST. 
 
 will not deliver over the mountain. Therefore at my poultry farm 
 I can get no deliveries, so I have to have a telephone on my farm 
 almost exclusively for the purpose of knowing when birds come in. ( 
 
 The Chairman. Are you on a rural route ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Yes, sir. And we have to send oyer the moun- 
 tain for every bird that comes in, and we have to deliver ourselves 
 to the express companies every bird that goes out or every egg. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Then a rural delivery parcel post would enable 
 you to send your birds to the express office, would it not ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. To anyplace; yes. We could send them, I sup- 
 pose, to the express office if we wished to have them sent by express. 
 
 The Chairman. Then it is the additional transportation feature, 
 rather than the cheap transportation, that appeals to you ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. No, sir; I think not. We think that the Gov- 
 ernment would take better care of our parcels than the express 
 companies do. 
 
 The Chairman. But in your own case you said you had to carry 
 to the express company's office, whereas if you had the governmental 
 parcel post so that you could utilize it, you could deliver right at 
 your door on the rural route that you are located on? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Yes; but I would like to send it right through. 
 I would not like to deliver it right to the express office, but I would 
 like to send it right through by rural delivery. 
 
 The Chairman. But it would be by a machinery that is now in 
 operation and would eliminate the necessity of your taking it to the 
 nearest express office ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Yes; even that would be a benefit. 
 
 The Chairman. It would be, instead of a dual operation, a con- 
 tinuous operation on the part of the Government? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Yes. Many of our members and many of the 
 poultrymen who are not members — because there are a great many 
 thousand breeders and considerable breeders of poultry in the country 
 who are not members of our association — could take advantage of 
 these opportunities of shipping if they are on the rural routes, their 
 poultry and eggs, their.. eating eggs and hatching eggs, and single 
 specimens of large birds, through the parcel post if it were adopted. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you the information as to the growth of the 
 industry, for instance the poultry output last year ? Mr. Hicks stated 
 it was considerably over a billion dollars. What was it 10 years ago ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. I am sorry I can not give you that information 
 with the least accuracy. 
 
 The Chairman. Did any of the Government departments have that 
 information 10 years ago ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Not to my knowledge. The bulk of the business, 
 of the so-called commercial poultry business, has beeri developed 
 within the past five years, especially the day-old chick business. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, it is becoming more and more of a science ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Oh, yes. Many persons are now advertising that 
 they supply these young day-old chickens, and they have no other 
 means of support ; they live from it and make a fair income, whereas 
 five years ago that was unheard of. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, will you kindly continue ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. T have very little to add here, because Mr. Zimmer, 
 whom we are going to ask to follow me, is better posted than I on 
 many of the technical propositions involved, and the figures. I simply 
 
PARCEL POST. 1021 
 
 would like to add to what Mr. Hicks has said, that the number of 
 poultry shows in the country is surprising to one wlio is not familiar 
 with it. I must confess that I was surprised to learn of the large 
 number. For example, this past year I was astonished to know, 
 especially in the West, of the tremendous number of poultry shows 
 and exhibitions that were being held, and to which birds could be 
 shipped and sent by a parcel post if some proper rate and proper 
 plan could be arranged by which this could be done. Buffalo; Balti- 
 more; Camden; Indianapolis; Atlanta; Muskogee, Okla.; and 
 Denver, Colo., are now holding shows, at which there are probably an 
 average of 2,000 birds. 
 
 The Chairman. As a matter of fact, doesn't most every county 
 seat and town in the western States have a poultry show ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Absolutely, I think. 
 
 The Chairman. Every county fair? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, it is more important than a number of 
 the county fairs, for they are more entertaining. 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. It is astonishing to me, although I have bred 
 poultry for 25 years. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I would like to inquire if you do not think the 
 zone system would be the more equitable basis of fixing the rates 
 for these parcels ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. I think, Senator Bristow, that it probably would. 
 I have not studied the subject as I would like to have done, and I 
 do not know what zone basis would be the best, but I am inclined 
 to think a zone system is probably inevitable. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It seems to me in the poultry business, if the 
 Government undertakes to handle poultry or eggs by parcels, that a 
 zone system will be inevitable, that we could not undertake, it seems 
 to me, to transport a bird from New York to Topeka for the same that 
 you would from Topeka to Lawrence, Kans. That would not be 
 defensible, it seems to me. 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. I should be inclined to think so now, without 
 giving it any study. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Mr. Cleveland, the basis of your complaint to the 
 express companies, as I understand, was not so much the rate charged, 
 but the method of handling the poultry that was entrusted to them 
 tor carrying. 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. That is so. 
 
 Senator Bryan. And you were unable to get from them satis- 
 factory assurances that better care would be taken of the shipments ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Absolutely. 
 
 Senator Bryan. And for that reason, and because you have 
 nowhere else to go for protection, you conceived the idea that it 
 would be proper lor the Government to include that class of ship- 
 ments in the parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Tbat was the leading reason why we thought of it. 
 
 Senator Bryan. The rate did not govern you so much ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. No. The poultrymen are willing to pay for 
 service rendered. 
 
 Senator Bryan. And you were not complaining at the rates charged 
 by the express companies ? 
 
 Mr. Cleveland. Not particularly; no. In many cases we thought 
 them excessive, because the goods were not routed direct, as we 
 
TESTIMONY OF C. W. ZIMMEB, CHAIRMAN OF THE PARCEL 
 POST COMMITTEE OF THE AMERICAN POULTRY ASSOCIA- 
 TION. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Zimmer, it will be necessary that you first be 
 sworn. 
 
 Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age, residence, and 
 occupation ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. C. W. Zimmer; age, 40; occupation, poultry editor 
 and advertising man, and in connection with this hearing, as chairman 
 of the parcel post committee of the American Poultry Association. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state, for the benefit of the com- 
 mittee, the views of your association and your committee relative 
 to the extending of the scope of our present parcel-post system as 
 embodied under the present fourth-class mailing privilege ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. We believe the Government should extend the parcel- 
 post system and the weight of a package should be increased to 11 
 pounds, and a large majority of our members even think it should 
 extend above 11 pounds, but we will be glad to get 11 pounds, inas- 
 much as it will cover a large number of packages shipped by express 
 companies by our people. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You would have some trouble with those big 
 Light Brahma roosters ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Yes, sir;' we would, but if we can get out day-old 
 chicks and our eggs and smaller shipments of birds which we need 
 and need quickly — and many times the poultryman needs a drinking 
 fountain or a lamp for his incubator or things like that for various 
 reasons, which he can not get delivered by the post to-day, but has 
 to depend upon the express companies, and make a trip into town to 
 get it — we would be much better fixed than we are at the present. 
 A great many of these things could come by parcel post just as well 
 as not, we think. 
 
 The Chairman. What are the reasons of your association, or of 
 the committee of which you are chairman, the parcel-post committee, 
 for favoring this enlargement of the scope of our present parcel 
 post? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Because we feel it would give us a better service, 
 and a service by the Government that would receive better care and 
 attention, and at the same time we believe if the express companies 
 were relieved of the carrying of a large portion of the parcels weighing 
 now below 1 1 pounds, that they could then give better service, and 
 would give better service to our shipments of packages which weigh 
 more than 1 1 pounds, and they would give us better rates and better 
 service for our large shipments of poultry. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Is it your idea to prohibit the express companies 
 from carrying packages of less than 11 pounds in weight? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. No; not by any means. 
 1022 
 
PARCEL POST. 1023 
 
 Senator Bryan. How do you figure they would not still carry 
 the majority of packages weighing less than 11 pounds? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Because we feel that a large proportion of the pack- 
 ages, if they were carried by the Government up to 11 pounds, and at 
 the proposed rate of 8 cents per pound, would be a cheaper service 
 than the express companies charge, not only cheaper but more 
 efficient, and delivered to points where the express companies will 
 not now deliver. 
 
 The Chairman. So that at the same rate you would favor the 
 Government, rather than the express companies, because of the 
 greater efficiency, better transportation facilities, and better service S 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Yes, sir; by all means. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You do not think that would come about if you 
 established a flat rate, do you ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. A flat rate 1 
 
 Senator Bryan. One rate the country wide ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. If a flat rate was established it certainly would come 
 about in a large majority of cases, particularly on thelong hauls. 
 
 Senator Bryan. The most of the hauls are short hauls, are they not ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Most of the hauls are short hauls for the reason of the 
 great expense of the long hauls, but if we had a flat rate on a long 
 haul, the man breeding poultry in Massachusetts could sell to the 
 buyer in California and compete with the intervening competitors 
 in the business, which he can not do now. 
 
 The Chairman. He could not with his chicks, according to the 
 testimony of Mr. Cleveland ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. But why should the Government aid the man 
 in Massachusetts as against the man in Kansas, and enable Mm to 
 send to California at the same rate ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. He would simply be making a level footing for every- 
 body. 
 
 Senator Bristow. He would simply be carrying articles for the 
 man in Massachusetts for half the amount he charged the man in 
 Kansas. 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Here is a point that I think it well to consider: All 
 our western country is not developed and we haven't the quality of 
 breeders in many varieties in the Western States that we have in the 
 Eastern States. A man living out West may want a particular 
 variety of birds, or he may want a particular quality, or he may want 
 a stock of eggs from a Madison Square Garden winning breed, and 
 none of his people in the country are able to supply him those par- 
 ticular needs. Should we put up a bar that makes it impossible for 
 him to get what he wants 1 
 
 Senator Bristow. No ; but charge him for the service he gets. 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Well, let me cite a case. I was breeding poultry in 
 Fort Wayne, Ind., and I was advertising in a small way. I had, in 
 fact, sold chickens in California, and I got an inquiry from California. 
 I finally landed a sale in California of six birds. The man to whom I 
 sold the birds happened to be connected with the express company, 
 and when it came time for shipment, he said you must ship by ex- 
 
 Sxress to Huntington to the Wells-Fargo, and I will send you express 
 ranks from Huntington, Ind., to Pasadena, Cal. Now, I could not 
 have sold that shipment of birds under any consideration, were it not 
 for the fact that he had express franks, for the express on that ship- 
 
1024 PARCEL POST. 
 
 ment would have amounted to $40, which was as much as he paid for 
 the birds. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Of course if you are furnished free transporta- 
 tion you would have an advantage over the fellow who does not have 
 it, and if you are going to charge as much for 1,000 miles as you do 
 for 2,000 miles, you would be giving an advantage to the man who 
 lived 2,000 miles away. 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But why should it do that? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. It should not do that. 
 
 The Chairman. Did I understand you to say that you published 
 a poultry magazine ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. I am associate editor and advertising manager of a 
 magazine; connected with it. 
 
 The Chairman. You are fully familiar with the business operations 
 of the magazine, are you ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And its sources of revenue? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Yes; quite familiar. 
 
 The Chairman. To your knowledge has the magazine ever received 
 any contributions from any mail-order or catalogue houses or rail- 
 roads to influence legislation in relation to the parcel-post question ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. I can say absolutely we have not. 
 
 The Chairman. In your operations as a publicist, have you ever 
 had any knowledge of any of the 60 papers that confine their atten- 
 tion to the poultry business, as such, ever receiving any contribu- 
 tions of any kind, directly or indirectly, from any of the mail-order 
 houses, catalogue houses, or railroads ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. To the best of my knowledge, and I am quite familiar 
 and friendly with a large number of my associates in the publishing 
 business, I know that none of them has. 
 
 The Chairman. You heard the testimony of Mr. Hicks and Mr. 
 Cleveland. Are there any points that were not touched upon by 
 these gentlemen in their appearance before the committee that occur 
 to your mind as having a bearing on the subject under discussion 
 that will be of value to the committee ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Well, there are two or three not very important ones, 
 but I feel if we had a parcel post up to 1 1 pounds that it would bring 
 about a collection and a distribution of our products in the rural 
 districts — which the express companies do not render to-day. That 
 would permit people who live in the suburban districts to engage 
 in the business and to receive packages they now get by express, 
 and would encourage and develop our business along those lines, 
 because of more efficient service. It would also put the small breeder 
 in a position to compete where he hasn't the facilities to-day to 
 engage in the business, and he would then engage in it, because of 
 having more efficient service through the rural routes. 
 
 The Chairman. Would he compete with the large dealers like the 
 gentlemen on the farms having incubators hatching 40,000 eggs? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Yes; lie could compete. He could compete for 
 matings from special pens or prize-winning birds which the small 
 man has. He could create a demand for day-old chicks at good 
 prices, say $1 or $2 apiece; breeds that were guaranteed to be hatched 
 from matings of prize-winning birds, and he could then ship from 
 
PARCEL POST. 1025 
 
 his door to the consumer, which, he can not do to-day because he 
 is engaged in other business and he hasn't the time to take these 
 packages to and from the express office, and he hasn't a delivery 
 system of his own; therefore he is shut out from engaging in this 
 business at the present time. 
 
 The Chairman. The scope of your activity is confined to a three- 
 day transportation route by the life of a chick >. 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. I will say four days. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, in the shipment of eggs and dead birds in 
 small packages, what do you believe would be the area of your 
 activity under an improved transportation facility? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. The shipment of eggs there would be no limit to. I 
 have shipped eggs myself from Fort Wayne, lnd., to Cuba. 
 
 The Chairman. But wouldn't your business continue the same 
 as it is to-day, in the assembling in large packages and shipment 
 through the cold storage. 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. You mean the commercial end entirely '( 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Well, it would continue the same as it is to-day, but 
 there would be a large volume of business spring up for the nearby 
 trade surrounding the larger commercial centers for the shipment of 
 fresh eggs, and for the shipment of dressed poultry that did not go 
 into cold-storage plants. 
 
 The Chairman. That would be within a radius of what — 25 or 50 
 miles ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. I would say 100 miles; 
 
 The Chairman. That would'probably be the limit ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Yes; and a large majority between 25 and 50 miles. 
 It would encourage and bring up an industry within 25 miles of the 
 cities, because of the better shipping facilities. It would stimulate 
 and encourage the people in that business, and they would do it to a 
 large extent. 
 
 The Chairman. The small packages to the individual customers in 
 the cities ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Yes, sir; from the producer to the consumer direct, 
 and the people in the cities to-day are craving fresh eggs and paying 
 any prices. I know of people who are shipping eggs into New York 
 City and are receiving 75 cents a dozen for them, practically a pro- 
 hibitive price, but the people are willing to pay it in order to get fresh 
 
 The Chairman. From your point of view, it would be rather an 
 incentive to enlarge the business, rather than an infringement ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Yes, sir; it would be a method of supplying fresh 
 eggs and would also make the price of fresh eggs less, and the pro- 
 duction greater, and nobody would be harmed, but everybody 
 benefited. 
 
 The Chairman. How would it cheapen the prices ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Because more people would be engaged in the busi- 
 ness close to the large cities and there would be a larger production. 
 
 The Chairman. And greater competition ', 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Greater competition and greater production. 
 
 The Chairman. And the cheaper transportation facility is an 
 important factor ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Yes, sir; by all odds. 
 
1026 PABCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What are the express rates on chickens; that 
 is, on single birds or packages of from three to five, say from New York 
 or New Jersey to the Central West, Missouri, Iowa, or Minnesota ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Well, really for a number of years I have not been 
 making many shipments myself, being engaged in the other end of 
 the business. I have not been a breeder for the last three years, 
 as I am traveling all the time, and I could not give you the exact 
 rate charged, but they vary so much to-day that if you want to 
 know what a rate is you have to go to the express office and inquire 
 what a rate is from a given point to a given point, and you never 
 know what it is going to be. For the same number of miles in some 
 other States, where a package has to be hauled by two different 
 express companies, the rate is sometimes nearly double for the same 
 number of miles for the same weight of shipment. There is one 
 of the abuses to-day. The first express company that gets hold of 
 a package will carry it as far as they can before they deliver it to 
 another company. 
 
 The Chairman. Then their price must be based on distance 
 hauling 'i 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Yes, sir; I should say so. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is the theory that they operate under ? 
 Mr. Zimmer. The theory they operate under? 
 Senator Bristow. They charge, as a matter of fact, what they 
 can get ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. All they can get; that is what it is. 
 Senator Bristow. And they charge twice if there isn't a receipt 
 given at the other end. If you send a package and do not mark it 
 paid at the time, they are likely to collect at both ends. 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Yes; and they hold onto it just as long as they can 
 before they deliver it to a competing company, even although' it could 
 go almost direct, and where there is only one express company in a 
 town they certainly lay on the charges. Now, in connection with the 
 shipment of day-old chicks in these crates or cartons, the development 
 of this industry has given rise to considerable inventive ability on the 
 part of our people engaged in the poultry business and the people who 
 are producing our poultry supplies, and we have a number of well- 
 ventilated cartons. These cartons are divided into four sections, the 
 100 sizes are divided into four sections, so that we keep chicks into 
 compartments of 25 each. That materially assists in the support and 
 strength of the carton, and also assists and keeps the chickens from 
 being smothered one on top of the other. That was one point that 
 was not brought out before. 
 
 Senator Bristow. After these chicks have been on the road two 
 days, are they as strong without food as if they had food, or do they 
 take food in short of two days ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. They will take it if given to them, but it is harmful 
 to give it to them. We found out by experience that it was harmful 
 to feed a chick before it was 2 days old, and at that time the proper 
 thing to give them is grit or gravel and a little drink of water and not 
 give them food. The yolk sack, which is absorbed just before the 
 chick is hatched, is the food provided by nature, and they are kept 
 alive on that during the early hours of their life. 
 
 Senator Bristow. So the chick is really stronger at the end of 48 
 or 60 hours without food than with it ? 
 
PARCEL POST. 1027 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Yes, sir; because it is harmful for them to take it. 
 If you give them food and the yolk has not digested, inflammation sets 
 in and they die of blood poison. It is called white diarrhea; this is. 
 caused by the indigestion of the yolk in the chick. 
 
 The Chairman. What figure shows the growth of the poultry 
 industry per annum in percentage. Does it grow 10 per cent per 
 year? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Yes; it grows 25 per cent. 
 
 The Chairman. So you think it really represents an increased 
 addition to our national wealth of one quarter of a billion dollars 
 annually ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. At the present time, particularly if you consider the 
 fancy end, you can add some on, because the statistics which Secre- 
 tary Wilson gives us do not contain anything with regard to the fancy 
 end at all. The Owen farms, for instance, is an industry that sprung 
 up within the last four or five years ; their business this year in fancy 
 poultry will amount to over $100,000. 
 
 The Chairman. Located where ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Vineyard, Mass. Here is another point I would like 
 to tell you. The business of William Cook & Sons, of Scotch Plains, 
 N. J., amounted last spring in the good months to $10,000 a month; 
 that is strictly in birds for breeding purposes and eggs for hatching 
 for breeding and exhibition purposes. 
 
 The Chairman. Coming under the classification of fancy poultry ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And not included in the statistics of the Secretary 
 of Agriculture for the amount of the poultry business last year ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. No, sir. Mr. Cook tells me he has an arrangement 
 with the United States Express Co. to send a special wagon out for 
 his special shipment of birds every day, and sometimes two wagons 
 come, and men with them, and the amount of express charges, they 
 told him, that the customer at the other end was paying on his birds 
 alone amounted to $1,800 or $2,000 a month during his good months. 
 
 The Chairman. Amounted to what ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Amounted to $1,800 or $2,000 a month. 
 
 The Chairman. On shipments from that one farm ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. From that one farm, and we have thousands of farms. 
 
 The Chairman. All your prices are based f. o. b. farm ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Yes, sir; all of them. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any further information ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Yes. Yesterday at Camden I ran across a man by 
 the name of Charles Fraser, of Marl ton, N. J., who was acting as 
 agent for an English firm, Messrs. Richardson & Jones. Mr. Fraser 
 was acting as agent for these people, importing birds in this country 
 to be sold again by him to the American people and also taking orders 
 and working on a commission for this firm, bringing birds and eggs 
 into this country. In this circular I find this line: "Five dollars per 
 fifteen eggs, express prepaid." He says, "We are offering you eggs 
 from our best pens at $5 per 15 eggs, express prepaid to your station, 
 these eggs being shipped direct from our farm in England to you." 
 Now, he tells me that these eggs come over by parcel post from 
 England He further says "Express prepaid." I can not say 
 whether Uncle Sam delivers those under their arrangement of parcel 
 post to-day or whether they are delivered by the express company; 
 
1028 PARCEL POST. 
 
 but, as I understand, there is a working arrangement with the parcel 
 post system of England by which express packages are delivered in 
 the United States for 24 cents, regardless of haul; and I presume 
 these eggs are delivered under that arrangement, and the price of $5 
 for 15 eggs from well-bred chicks is ridiculous. 
 
 The Chairman. Why do they select 15 eggs instead of a dozen? 
 
 Mr. Zimmee. The old rule of our grandmothers used to be 13 eggs; 
 it took an odd number to hatch well. 
 
 The Chairman. So the superstition continues, or rather in the 
 competition of trade some man thought he would give 15 instead of 
 13 and he would get the business from the other fellow. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The average hen would not cover well more 
 than 15 eggs? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Well, some of our new breeds, like the Rhode Island 
 Red and the Rocks cover 15 eggs right well. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, don't leave out the Light Brahmas. 
 
 Mr. Zimmee. Well, they will cover 15. My father bred therm 
 So by increasing the stock of the hen, she will to-day cover 15 eggs, 
 -something you must not lose sight of. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You speak of shipping eggs from England here. 
 Are they more highly developed in England than in the United States ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmee. Particularly the Orpington, which is of English 
 origin, that is the bird this man is handling, and handling several 
 varieties of the Orpington, particularly the Buff, White and Black, 
 which are the most popular varieties of the Orpington, although 
 there are several others. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that all? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. I believe the Sulzer bill provides for the insurance 
 of mail matter, and I believe that insurance would be a very nice 
 thing, and I think it would probably cover the extra care our day-old 
 -chicks would have to have in the mails very nicely, because all the 
 breeders who are shipping valuable chicks by parcel post would want 
 to have them insured, and would be willing to pay an additional rate 
 for the insurance. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Would it not be better to let the insurance com- 
 panies handle that? 
 
 Mr. Zimmee. If we had an insurance company doing business 
 on day-old chicks we would be pleased to patronize it. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Then organize one. 
 
 Mr. Zimmee. Well, you give us a parcel post and I think we will 
 organize it then. I would not mind taking some stock in it myself. 
 
 The Chairman. The order of importance, according to your study 
 of the question, as I take it, is first the increased transportation 
 facility, second the better service and cheaper rate, and third, your 
 insurance feature ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmer. Yes; that covers the ground verv nicely. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there anything further ? 
 
 Mr. Zimmee. Nothing further comes to my mind at this moment. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee is greatly obliged to you for the 
 information. 
 
TESTIMONY OF ME. RICHARD I. GAY, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, 
 POSTAL PROGRESS LEAGUE. 
 
 The Chairman. Mi-. Gay, it will be necessary that you first b& 
 sworn. 
 
 Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. State your age and present occupation, Mr. 
 Gay. 
 
 Mr. Gay. Richard L. Gay; age 74; residence, Boston, Mass. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any connection with any associations 
 of a public nature that are interested in public questions; if so, will 
 you kindly state them ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. I am assistant secretary and treasurer of the Postal 
 Progress League, and also secretary of the Massachusetts State 
 Board of Trade. 
 
 The Chairman. In your appearance before the committee to-day, 
 are you here to represent the views of the Postal Progress League, 
 and will you represent the views of the Massachusetts State Board 
 of Trade ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Yes, sir. Shall I explain somewhat what that board is % 
 
 The Chairman. If you will kindly, yes. 
 
 Mr. Gay. It consists of 58 affiliated associations of boards of trade 
 and commercial organizations in cities and towns in Massachusetts. 
 If you would like me to state the object of the association I will 
 do so. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; if you would, kindly. 
 
 Mr. Gay. The objects of the board are to concentrate the power and 
 usefulness of the various boards of trade and other business associa- 
 tions of the State in one corporate organization, in order to secure 
 prompt, uniform, and harmonious action in the proper considera- 
 tion of questions pertaining to financial, commercial, industrial, and 
 all material interests of the State at large, as well as to foster and 
 strengthen the efficiency of each organization comprised in its 
 membership. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do these boards of trade represent your retail 
 merchants in the various cities % 
 
 Mr.' Gay. Yes, sir; they comprise in the aggregate a membership of 
 something like 15,000 members. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And are you representing those retail merchants 
 here to-day ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. I am representing the State board, which is formed of the 
 different organizations, as their secretary. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you, as secretary- of the State board, speak 
 for these merchants on this subject ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. I speak for the action which our State board has taken on 
 this question. I can state to you such action as the board has taken 
 in its executive council. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, did the executive council express what 
 they understood to be the wishes of the individual members of the 
 boards of trade, or their own judgment ? 
 
 1029 
 
1030 , PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Gay. T will explain first what the executive board is. Each one 
 of these associations is represented by three delegates chosen by them, 
 and one of the three is elected a vice president of our board and 
 becomes a member of the executive council of the State board, which 
 is the, executive body of the board. They have monthly meetings 
 for six months in the year. We have a number of standing com- 
 mittees to which various matters which are presented to us for con- 
 sideration are referred, and these committees report back to the 
 council and the council takes action as individual members repre- 
 senting the different associations. 
 
 The Chairman. To clear up what I think may be a littie ambiguous 
 at present, your organizations do not consist of retail merchants only, 
 but they consist and embody representatives of all lines of business, 
 and in the organization there are a number of retail organizations 
 who are members, as I understand ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Yes; they comprise retail and wholesale dealers of all 
 kinds in the towns and in the cities, the professional men as well as 
 the merchants and others. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Have the various boards of trade of Massachu- 
 setts taken action with reference to parcel-post legislation ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Some of them have and some have not. I am only here 
 to speak of the action taken in our executive council. 
 
 Senator Bryan. And the executive council have taken action 
 where not all the constituent elements going to make it up have 
 taken action ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Exactly; yes. I want to make that clear, that it is the 
 action of the executive council. 
 
 The Chairman. But the executive council consists of one repre- 
 sentative from each one of the branches ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Exactly. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you state for the information of the com- 
 mittee the specific action the executive council have taken ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. We took this matter up in 1908 at the time the then 
 Postmaster General Meyer put forth his recommendation relative to 
 a parcel post, which you may recall, and this is a copy of the record 
 at that time. Shall I read it ? 
 
 The Chairman. If you kindly will. 
 
 Mr. Gay. At a meeting of the Massachusetts State Board of Trade, 
 held February 21, 1908, the committee on post offices and postal laws, 
 to which was referred a communication on the question of the recom- 
 mendation of Postmaster General Meyer relative to parcel post, 
 reported as follows: 
 
 This committee indorses the recommendation of the Postmaster General in regard 
 to parcel post, and believes that if carried out along the line suggested by him it will 
 not interfere with the business of the small storekeeper and retailer, but that it will 
 be a great advantage to the rural population and to the merchants in the rural districts. 
 
 That was the only matter that was then possible to brmg before 
 the council— his recommendation. In 1910 this action was taken: 
 
 This is to certify that at a meeting of the Massachusetts State Board of Trade in 
 executive council, held April 18, 1910, the committees on post offices and postal laws 
 and on finance and financial legislation, acting jointly, one member dissenting, 
 reported in favor of parcel post as provided in the Foster bill. 
 
 I do not recall just what that was. I might say these matters 
 being referred to those committees, the last time, 'the two jointly 
 
PARCEL POST. 1031 
 
 were very thoroughly discussed at two or three different meetings 
 at which arguments were made pro and con and afterwards discussed 
 in the council and were adopted. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Has any action been taken since 1910 ? 
 
 Mr. Gat. It has not. There was no action taken in 1911. The 
 matter has not been brought before the council this year, but that is 
 because we commenced in October. We only have our standing 
 committees appointed in November, and we haven't gotten thoroughly 
 to work, but the matter is to be brought up at our next meeting for 
 discussion later on. 
 
 The Chairman. When the action of the executive council was 
 taken, was each of the branches throughout the State notified of 
 that action ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And a copy of the resolution and proceedings 
 sent to each branch ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. No action can be taken on any matter in our board unless 
 the substance of the matter is incorporated in the call, and no action 
 is taken on any subject when first introduced ; it must be referred to a 
 committee the same as in your legislative bodies, and report must be 
 made on it, and sometimes it takes two or three months; in fact, we 
 have very extended hearings sometimes, as we did in this case. 
 
 The Chairman. As I understand, you have in effect 15,000 mem- 
 bers in your organization scattered throughout Massachusetts ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Were all those 15,000 members presumably made 
 cognizant and aware of the exact resolutions that were adopted in 
 1905 and 1910? 
 
 Mr. Gay. No; they could not be, except that notice of all action 
 taken in our executive council is sent to the secretary of each associa- 
 tion and fully reported to them for their information. 
 
 The Chairman. Did you have any protests to the 1908 resolution 
 or to the 1910 resolution? 
 
 Mr. Gay. I do not know that I quite understand what you mean 
 by "protests." 
 
 The Chairman. I mean protests from any of the 15,000 members 
 who were made cognizant, or presumably so, through the notification 
 to the secretary of each subcommittee or suborganization or branch 
 of the action taken by your council. 
 
 Mr. Gay. No protests whatever. 
 
 The Chairman. None whatever ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. No. I might say that I think at least the main oppo- 
 sition has come from those representing organizations like the whole- 
 sale grocers and the hardware associations, who feared if it were 
 adopted it would injure their business, and it might be called a 
 selfish proposition. In view of the fact that in the city of Boston 
 all the large stores deliver free in the immediate vicinity, 10 or 15 
 miles, and a purchase of $1 free in Massachusetts, and a purcfhase of 
 $5 to any point in New England, I do not think that the small 
 merchants would be affected in any way. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the general system you are speaking of 
 now? 
 
 • Mr. Gay. That is the general system. I have here an advertise- 
 ment that appeared in one of our papers just after Christmas, an 
 
1032 PARCEL POST. 
 
 advertisement of A. Stow ell & Co., one of our largest and strictly 
 first-class jewelry stores, in which they advertised free delivery on a 
 purchase of $5 or more to any part of New England; "mail orders 
 promptly executed." I have here from S. S. Pierce & Co. an adver- 
 tisement copied from their price list which they circulate from the 
 store: 
 
 Express charges prepaid to the following points, provided orders amount to a 
 reasonable sum. Refined sugars in original packages excepted. 
 
 Then they give a list of towns here, and the most of them are 
 within 10 or 15 miles, some of them 28, 29, and even 33 miles, against 
 which is a star, and against the star the explanation is "freight 
 express." ''Newport by freight only, delivered at house." 
 
 The Chairman. That^is Newport, R. I.? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Newport, E. I. They modified that. 
 
 Freight prepaid on orders aggregating $5 to any railroad station within 20 miles of 
 Boston; on $10 orders, to any "railway station within 50 miles; on $15 orders, to any 
 railway station within 120 miles; and on $25 orders to any railway station in New 
 England. On orders aggregating $25 and over shipped outside of New England, or 
 shipped by express to any point to which we do not prepay express charges, we will 
 make a freight allowance of 30 cents per hundredweight. 
 
 Mr. Gay. S. S. Pierce & Co. They are fine wholesale grocers and 
 do a similar business to that of Park & Tilford, of New York. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do they ship canned goods ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Everything — strictly fine first-class goods. They have 
 the finest grocery trade in Boston. 
 
 The Chairman. They are not distinctly a catalogue house? They 
 do business in Boston, "and the bulk of their business is done in the 
 city? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Are they for or against a parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. I do not know that I have ever asked them the question. 
 They have been there for years and years, and this system of delivery 
 is one of their own, for the convenience of their customers. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How do they deliver ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. They deliver by express or by team in the immediate 
 vicinity of Boston. They have a branch in the center of the city and 
 another in what we call the Back Bay section, near the public library; 
 they have another one in Brookline, and they also do a wholesale 
 business. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you know whether or not they have a special 
 arrangement with the express companies ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. I think not , for they have a large number of teams, and 
 they deliver in the immediate vicinity of Boston and with their own 
 teams. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Does that mean they deliver to the homes? 
 
 Mr. Gay. To the homes; yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You take the cities outside, say, 50 miles away ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Of course, where there is express that is delivered at the 
 depot, as I understand it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I wondered whether they got a better rate or 
 had a better rate with the express companies than any other merchant 
 in the city of Boston ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. All our department stores deliver in that way. They ' 
 will deliver free for a purchase of $1 worth in Massachusetts, and for 
 $5 anywhere in New England. That has existed for years. 
 
pakcetj post. 1033 
 
 Senator Bristow. The customer pays the express rate, or do they 
 pay it ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. No; it is free delivery. My point is that the objection 
 raised by these gentlemen against the interference and the wiping 
 out of the small dealer has not resulted in the vicinity of Boston and 
 New England, where this system has been in practice for years. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Do I understand that that is the dollar's worth 
 of goods ? 
 
 Mr. Gat. A dollar's worth of goods. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Thev will deliver free anywhere in Massachu- 
 setts ? 
 
 Mr. Gat. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose that is a dollar's worth of canned corn. 
 Will they deliver that ? 
 
 Mr. Gat. I have that directly from one of the employees, the head 
 man in one of the establishments the day before I came here. My 
 memory served me, but to be sure I made the inquiry. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That this firm would ship a dollar's worth of 
 canned corn to any point in Massachusetts free ? 
 
 Mr. Gat. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Delivered to the railroad station in that town ? 
 
 Mr. Gat. Yes, sir; that is the case in all the department stores in 
 Boston. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, doubtless there is a qualification in there to 
 the effect, where there is an express office. 
 
 Mr. Gat. No; they deliver to their homes. 
 
 Senator Brtan. They deliver to their homes ? 
 
 Mr. Gat. Yes. Where there is an express or freight service they 
 do not. 
 
 Senator Brfan. In Massachusetts they deliver to their homes ? 
 
 Mr. Gat. That is what I understand. 
 
 The Chairman. But only in the towns designated ? 
 
 Senator Brtan. In the other States they only deliver to the depot. 
 
 Mr. Gat. Where it says "freight prepaid on orders aggregating $5" 
 within so many miles of Boston, and so on. John Marsh, R. S. White 
 &Co., Siegel & Co., Houghton & Dutton Co., are the leading stores. 
 
 The Chairman. There is a qualification to that statement in the 
 particular point mentioned, don't you see? 
 
 Mr. Gat. In that particular house, S. S. Pierce & Co. That does 
 not apply to these other houses. These other houses deal in groceries 
 just the same. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, if I were in Boston and wanted to ship by 
 express a dollar's worth of canned corn — if I went to a grocery store 
 and bought that corn and wanted to ship it to some one in Springfield, 
 could I ship that for the same rate that the express companies charged 
 one of the stores ? 
 
 Mr. Gat. They will deliver a dollar's worth for you, according to 
 the statement made to me in Springfield. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose I went to the express office? 
 
 Mr. Gat. No; you can not send a dollar's worth by express free, 
 of course. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Could I send that dollar's worth by express, pay- 
 ing the express company the same as these mercantile establishments 
 pay it ? 
 
 21845— vol 4—12 11 
 
1034 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Gay. They have, undoubtedly, some special rate with them. 
 They gather their bundles together and deliver, and if there is any 
 quantity of them they send by the carload, I presume. My point is 
 mis : You can come into any of the stores and order a dollar's worth 
 and say you want it sent to your home in Springfield, and your dollar 
 will pay for the goods and for that delivery to your home. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I understand the point; but what I was trying 
 i;o get at was, do the express companies make a special rate with these 
 large storer which other people do not enjoy ? 
 
 Mr. Gray. Evidently they do. They assemble them in such a way 
 the rate to them is so low that they can afford to do it. Just how it 
 is done I can not tell you, sir. Just the same as they come over to 
 Ifew York for small amounts of purchases, they assemble them all in 
 one locality and fill a car or a portion of a car, and they get a special 
 rate on that; it is carried by express to New York, and they gather 
 them together and they start out at night, and the next morning they 
 are in New York. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is express or freight ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. That is express. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I thought the railroad companies handled that 
 themselves independently of the express companies, and that the 
 -express companies were very hostile to some of the railroads because 
 of the action they have taken? 
 
 Mr. Gay. They told me decidedly it was handled by the express 
 and not by freight, assembled and assorted at night, and at its desti- 
 nation in the morning. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Wouldn't that be far more injurious to the 
 country merchant as a system of delivery than any parcel-post system 
 «ould be 1 
 
 Mr. Gay. It would seem so, and yet it does not seem to have had 
 any effect whatever on the country merchants. They are there and 
 they are doing business, and I never heard any complaint. They 
 have to meet that in any case. That is what the department stores 
 do in order to get the business. That has been in vogue for some years. 
 This arrangement of Pierce & Co.'s is a little modification of the other 
 dealers. 
 
 The Chairman. It is a phase of advertising that each enterprise 
 (tries to give some better service or better quality, in order to get the 
 'business, and it is a natural growth of business. 
 
 Mr. Gay. That is the case largely with the department stores. 
 This firm has a reputation such as will enable them to sell their goods 
 without anything of that kind. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the reputation of any firm must be based on 
 good service. 
 
 Mr. Gay. Yes; they have good goods and render good service. 
 
 The Chairman. Did I understand you to say that you were treas- 
 urer ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Assistant treasurer. 
 
 The Chairman. Of which organization ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Of the Postal Progress League. I might explain that 
 the Postal Progress League is a Massachusetts corporation and we 
 are required by law to have an office and an officer in Massachusetts. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it a corporation ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. A Massachusetts corporation. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1035 
 
 The Chairman. Has it stock ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What constitutes, under the Massachusetts law, 
 the corporate power ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Incorporated for certain purposes, specified in the 
 charter. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Is it your idea that the Government would 
 take the packages, like the express companies do now, in the cities, 
 if they had stamps on them, and distribute them quite as effectively 
 as is done under that system enumerated there ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. I suppose they ought to as effectively as they do their 
 mail matter. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Has your organization passed any resolutions 
 as to any specific bill in its last recommendation of a parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Not in any of these recent bills. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Nor any special rate ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. We did hear that the Foster Bill, which I do not remem- 
 ber now — — 
 
 The Chairman. That was the resolution of 1910 or 1908? 
 
 Mr. Gay. 1910 was the Foster bill, and the 1908 was Postmaster 
 General Meyer's recommendation in regard to a parcel post. 
 
 Senator Swanson. To what extent are retail merchants members 
 of the organization of which you are secretary, and speak for to-day ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Generally, these commercial bodies take in all business 
 men, professional men, even to the clergymen, and they endeavor to 
 get in everybody interested in the growth, development, and welfare 
 of business and otherwise in the community. They may be retailers, 
 wholesalers, manufacturers, and, in fact, every class. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Do you know to what extent the retail mer- 
 chants are members of that association composed of 15,000 names, 
 members that you speak for — what proportion of them are retail 
 merchants ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. I do not, but I should think in most of these places in the 
 smaller towns they take m about all the retail merchants in the com- 
 munity. That is the aim of all these associations, to get everybody 
 interested in that town. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Have you heard any protest from the retail 
 merchants who are members of your association, in connection with 
 that resolution recommending a parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. None at all. You mean have they officially or in any 
 form notified me of their dissent ? 
 
 Senator Swanson. The protest would naturally come to you as the 
 proper official of the organization ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Yes; I am the only official to whom it would come. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Do you think most of the retail merchants in 
 Massachusetts favor a parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. I do not think I could answer that question, because I 
 am not sufficiently familiar with it. It is quite impossible for me to 
 do that. The chief opposition, as I have said before, has come from 
 those who have feared it might interfere with the country merchants; 
 some have painted very black pictures to the effect of leaving the 
 place, the town or village where the retail dealer was, where the retail 
 dealer is now doing business, as a desert, nothing left; that is extrava- 
 gance, of course, on their part. 
 
1036 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Have you worked out or reached a conclusion 
 in your own mind of a specific measure or recommendation to make 
 to the committee in connection with this matter? 
 
 Mr. Gay. No ; I have not. I wish I could do that. 
 
 Senator Swanson. You have not given it sufficient thought ? 
 
 Mr. Gat. Speaking personally, the Sulzer bill is the one which I 
 personally approve of. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Have you worked out the details of that bill, 
 to what extent it would affect the revenues of the Government and 
 the amount of business that would come under it ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. No; I have not. But I would like to say in that con- 
 nection that it seems to me the assumption is made that the expense 
 of doing that, or any other service of the Government, is to remain 
 the same as it is to-day. I assume that if a parcel-post system is 
 adopted, the question of how to most economically conduct it would 
 be considered most carefully. Within the recollection of everybody 
 here, mail was carried by horses and wagons, which was slow and 
 expensive. Now, in the cities it is carried by electric cars, and is 
 transmitted from the post office to the station by tubes; that is, for 
 efficiency, and I judge for economy. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Hardly for economy; that is for speed. 
 
 Mr. Gay. Well, for speed, and perhaps economy. I assume that 
 we haven't got to that point where we can say there can be no better 
 system than our present system for economical handling of mail 
 matter, and that if we adopt a parcel post we shall find some way of 
 handling that very economically. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Do you think the charges ought to be sufficient 
 to cover the expense of it, or that it should be self-sustaining ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. I am not quite sure upon that point. The delivery of 
 mail matter in all its branches has not paid for itself. Now whether, 
 from the same principle, of the greatest good to the greatest number, 
 we should incur some additional expense, I do not know. I assume 
 in the beginning of the enterprise you would not be able to make it 
 pay, but 1 have a feeling that we shall be able to so conduct it in the 
 future that it will pay. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you put the transportation of merchandize 
 upon the same basis as the transportation of first or second class 
 mail? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Well; 1 do not know that I can meet that point par- 
 ticularly; there is quite a question there. But, considering the great 
 benefit and advantage it will be to the public at large, both to the 
 sender and the receiver, I think that the Government can bear some 
 of the expense, which I hope to see, in the end, eliminated. 
 
 Senator Swanson. You do not favor taxing to a large amount the 
 entire people to pay the cost of transporting goods through the mails ? 
 You would not favor that, would you ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Not if you call it a tax, but I am not quite so sure whether 
 it would be. 
 
 Senator Swanson. If a deficit of ten or twenty million dollars was 
 created in the postal system, do you think the rest of the people 
 ought to be taxed to make up the deficit or do you think it ought to 
 be made ultimately self-sustaining? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Well, the rural post has not been self-sustaining, but 
 there is a benefit derived. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1037 
 
 Senator Beistow. Do you put the transportation of express matter, 
 or parcels of merchandise, upon the same basis as letters, newspapers, 
 and periodicals? The one is educational and social, which is the 
 basis of our institutions, in a way, and the other is for the transporta- 
 tion of commodities of the people, and an incident of the mail busi- 
 ness, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Well, Senator, I do not feel I have thought the matter 
 over sufficiently to argue it with you. I have heard a great deal here 
 upon the subject and it is something I would like to think of fully 
 before I give a definite answer. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Of course it is a very important matter for us to 
 determine. 
 
 Mr. Gay. I understand. I understand it is a great question. 
 
 The Chaieman. In your official capacity as assistant treasurer of 
 the Postal Progress League have you received any contributions from 
 any of the railroads, mail order or catalogue houses to assist in the 
 work of the league ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Nothing of the kind, sir. 
 
 The Chaieman. I have understood that one of- the mail-order 
 houses has made a series of contributions, aggregating, according to 
 one estimate, possibly $500, and according to the testimony of the 
 representative of the mail-order house or catalogue house, aggre- 
 gating not to exceed, at the outside limit, $1,000, and with no infer- 
 ential criticism on the right of the organization or the right of a mail- 
 order house to give or your organization to receive any such contri- 
 bution as they see fit, if they believed in the functions upon which 
 the league was founded, I want to get into the hearing a concrete 
 statement from you, as assistant treasurer of your organization, evi- 
 dence that would either corroborate or dispel the statement that has 
 been made, either directly or inferentially, by some of the witnesses 
 who have appeared before the committee and made the statement 
 that the agitation in favor of a parcel post was a subsidized agitation 
 based upon contributions emanating from the mail-order or cata- 
 logue houses or the railroads. That is the purpose of my question. 
 
 Mr. Gay. I understand you, sir. I have received nothing from 
 them. 
 
 The Chaieman. Will you explain for the information of the com- 
 mittee the particular scope or activity of the Postal Progress League, 
 the purpose for which the league was organized and created ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. I do not know that I can explain it any further than 
 Mr. Beach did yesterday; for the general purposes of establishing a 
 parcel post, for the benefits which have been set forth here by the 
 different people, an agitation to interest the people in better facili- 
 ties, especially for the transmission of parcels by post. 
 
 The Chaieman. And solely based upon a desire to increase the 
 general welfare of the Nation as a whole, and not based on any par- 
 ticular special, selfish interest, other than every individual would 
 participate in as a unit of society? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Precisely so. 
 
 The Chaieman. Are there any other statements, Mr. Gay, that 
 you care to make to the committee, or information that you care to 
 impart ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. I do not know. That matter of zones is something I 
 have not thought about, but it is within the memory of some, per 
 
1038 PARCEL POST. 
 
 haps; I certainly can remember when postage was charged according 
 to the distance. I don't know just how they arranged it, but I 
 remember the charges used to be 37$ cents, 25 cents, and 12 j cents, 
 and so on down. That a long time ago was changed, and I suppose 
 because they found it impracticable, or because they could not afford 
 to do it. It seems to me a zone system would work confusion and 
 not be a benefit. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that would be a matter to be worked out in 
 the details. 
 
 Mr. Gay. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you receive any compensation in your official 
 capacity for the league ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. No, sir; not in the league. v 
 
 The Chairman. You donate your services and a considerable 
 amount of your time ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Yes, sir; fully; entirely. 
 
 The Chairman. All your time to the purpose of the league ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. All the time I give to the league is wholly gratuitous. 
 
 The Chairman. But all the time you give to it, you give free ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. The main part of the business is done from the New 
 York office. 
 
 The Chairman. The head office of the league is in Boston. Is the 
 rental donated ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Yes, sir; wholly. There is no expense whatever. 
 
 The Chairman. You are the owner ? 
 
 Mr. Gay. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. I am simply trying to show the interest you take 
 in the subject from an unselfish motive. 
 
 Mr. Gay. Yes, sir; freely and fully everything is given. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged, indeed. 
 
TESTIMONY OF ME. I. S. CHAMBERLAIN, GENERAL SECRETARY 
 KNIGHTS OP LABOR. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Chamberlain, it will be necessary that you: 
 first be sworn. 
 
 Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Chamberlain, will you kindly state for the- 
 information of the committee your age, residence, and occupation ? 
 
 Mr. Chamberlain. I am in my seventy-second year, and I suppose 
 you would call me a resident of this city, for I have been here for 
 nearly 10 years. I am the general secretary-treasurer of the Knights 
 of Labor. 
 
 The Chairman. And in your appearance before the committee to- 
 day you will represent the views of the Knights of Labor and their 
 attitude particularly toward the subject matter we have under dis- 
 cussion ? 
 
 Mr. Chamberlain. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Namely, a consideration of the parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Chamberlain. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state for the information of the 
 committee whether the Knights of Labor are in favor of or opposed 
 to increasing the present scope of our parcel-post activity as em- 
 bodied in the fourth-class mail privilege ? 
 
 Mr. Chamberlain. The Knights of Labor have been the pioneers 
 in that movement, in favor of it. The organization went on record 
 in that direction years ago. We are now in the 43d year as a body,, 
 and before that we were what was known as the Labor Congress, and 
 for years tried to make that an organization of open meetings, but 
 that became a failure. Then the men who were leading in that organi- 
 zation in December, 1869, met in Philadelphia and organized the 
 Knights of Labor and placed in the platform as one of their planks 
 this approval of a parcel post, and that has always been adhered to, 
 and every member of our organization is supposed to have subscribed 
 to this platform or to this principle. That is advocated in copies of 
 our constitution, and one of the planks in the platform covers the 
 ground that the Government should take care of that business^ 
 instead of allowing great moneyed institutions to take care of the busi- 
 ness that an individual could not do. 
 
 The Chairman. Could you turn readily to the specific plank 
 touching upon the department itself ? 
 
 (The planks discussed follow:) 
 
 That, in connection with the post office, the Government shall provide facilities 
 for deposits of savings of the people in small sums. And that all banks, other than 
 postal savings banks, receiving deposits shall be required to give good and approved 
 bonds as security in twice the sum of all deposits received. 
 
 That the Government shall obtain possession, under the right of eminent domain, 
 of all telegraphs, telephones, and railroads; and that hereafter no charter or license be 
 issued to any corporation for construction or operation of any means of transporting 
 intelligence, passengers, freight, or power. 
 
 1039 
 
1040 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Chamberlain. I have two copies of the constitution here and 
 will leave one of them with you. Years ago, every little while there 
 would be some slight change in that platform, and you will see on the 
 flyleaf that changes have been made from year to year. 
 
 I cite on one of those occasions, perhaps 20 years ago, that here in 
 Washington, at 225 Pennsylvania Avenue, there is carved in a stone 
 in front of a building, ""Adams & Co., express." That Adams & Co. in 
 those early days really controlled the horse market in Boston and the 
 Eastern States, and they could do what no individual could do in 
 carrying goods. We mention there that the Government should 
 obtain possession, under the right of eminent domain, of all things 
 necessary to handle passengers and freight, whatever that might be, 
 in the interest of the people. That is about the wording in that plank. 
 We would not put in there the Australian-baUot law, but our organiza- 
 tion directed the general board to formulate a general form for a ballot, 
 and we went into the various States and put it in. So we have been 
 pioneers in fighting for a parcel post and an extension of the Gov- 
 ernment doing something to help the people. We say, when you have 
 a messenger going on his route, let him do a little more than simply 
 carry a letter. I do not know what you would like to ask me on this 
 matter, but I heard a discussion about having zones. Well, that is 
 legitimate in a good sense, the same as it used to be with the postage; 
 but I heard a man in a western legislature, who is a great friend of 
 mine and a graduate of a number of schools, say that the day will 
 come when you can load up your car with wheat, and whether it goes 
 to Chicago or to New York or Baltimore, you will put a postage stamp 
 on it and it will go to any one of the places named. 
 
 The Chairman. I suppose he was reasoning from the expedition 
 we have had in improving our parcel-post system in the last 30 years. 
 However, we haven't made much progress in the past 30 years. 
 
 Mr. Chamberlain. Well, we are behind a good many of the foreign 
 countries, for they are way ahead of us. 
 
 The Chairman. The attitude of your organization, then, has been, 
 for a long period of time, extremely favorable toward increasing the 
 present activity of our parcel post as represented under the fourth- 
 class mail privilege? 
 
 Mr. Chamberlain. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Then it is practically unanimous, so far as you 
 understand '* 
 
 Mr. Chamberlain. Yes, sir; it is supposed to be, and we make no 
 allowance, for we put it into our official paper, as we were the pioneers 
 for the postal savings bank; we carried that for 40 years, and when 
 the Australian-ballot law came up I was officially doing work in 
 Nebraska, and Mr. Rosewater and the Lincoln Journal said it would 
 bankrupt the State. I made a motion in our State organization to 
 put out a committee to lay that before the legislature, and told every 
 man to shut his mouth and let the committee do the talking. That 
 went through, and our object was to isolate the voter, to get him 
 away from everybody, and it would be hard to catch him as to how 
 he voted under the power of the Australian ballot. 
 
 The Chairman. I think we all recognize the benefit of the Austra- 
 lian ballot. Is there any other information in the study of your 
 question or reasons that caused you to come to the conclusion as an 
 organization as to the desirability of this that would be of benefit, 
 
PARCEL POST. 1041 
 
 in your opinion, to the committee in the study we are making of 
 the subject ? 
 
 Mr. Chamberlain. I do not think so, particularly, only I mention 
 the fact of the express companies doing it, and we said in the earlier 
 days that money was coming forward to control the Government, 
 right at the close of the war ; money is coming in and the great cor- 
 porations are taking hold of the work and we should say for the peo- 
 ple, "Our work is economy." While we are a strong labor organiza- 
 tion, we have people of all grades; we have seen them in the United 
 States Senate and in the House time and again, and we felt from the 
 start in this and in all of the teachings all the time it should not be 
 selfish, it should not be narrow, but it should be in the interests of 
 the people; that is our ground. We also felt that if we did not push 
 that for the people, or if the people did not push it themselves, the 
 great corporations would soon have the whole Government. To-day 
 it looks to me as though the express companies have almost become 
 great robbers. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you leave with the committee a copy of the 
 paper and a copy of your constitution ? 
 
 Mr. Chamberlain. Yes, sir; I will do so. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee are very much obliged to you for 
 coming before it. 
 
TESTIMONY OF MR. NATHAN B. WILLIAMS, REPRESENTING THE 
 ASSOCIATED RETAILERS OF ST. LOUIS, MO. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Williams, it will be necessary that you first be 
 sworn. 
 
 Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Williams, will you kindly state your age, resi- 
 dence and present occupation ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. Nathan B. Williams; residence, Fayetteville, Ark.; 
 age, 38; practicing lawyer. 
 
 The Chairman. In your appearance before the committee to-day, 
 in their study of the parcel-post bill, do you represent any 
 organization ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. I come for myself, having for several years made 
 quite an extensive study of postal questions, but about the time that 
 it was suggested that I might appear and present my views the 
 Associated Retailers of St. Louis, Mo., with a number of whom I have 
 a personal acquaintance, and all of whom are more or less familiar 
 with the studies that I have made and the arguments that I have 
 presented to the congressional body and through the press, wrote me, 
 through their manager, Mr. Coffin, at my home address, which letter 
 followed me here, asking me to appear for that association. 
 
 The Chairman. The St. Louis Retail Association ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. Yes; "The Associated Retailers of St. Louis,' 
 Third National Bank Building, Broadway and Olive Street, St. 
 Louis, Mo., Z. T. Coffin, general manager." 
 
 The Chairman. How large an organization is that, or association, 
 according to your information ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. The organization, according to my best information, 
 comprises something more than 150 of the retail stores of the city of 
 St. Louis. It is quite an extensive organization, embracing all of 
 the larger stores and a great many that are not what we call large 
 department stores. They sent me a number of letters, which I 
 received to-day, from the managers or presidents of some of these 
 institutions, which I think would be proper to file with you. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean letters showing their attitude on the 
 subject? 
 
 Mr. Williams. Showing their attitude; and perhaps it would be 
 well to make some mention as to who they are from. Twill read these 
 letters. 
 
 (The letters are as follows :) 
 
 The May Department Stores Co., 
 
 St. Louis, January 2, 191%. 
 Honorable Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads 
 
 of the Senate of the United States. 
 Gentlemen: In reference to the bill introduced by the Hon. William Sulzer, of 
 New York, in regard to the new law proposed on parcel post, we wish to urge the 
 necessity of the passage of this bill. 
 
 1042 
 
PARCEL POST. 1043 
 
 In connection with many other large retail stores in this city we believe that it would 
 be greatly to the benefit of the great number of customers with whom we do business 
 and the people at large. 
 
 We would consider it a step forward in the right direction for us to be allowed to 
 send through the parcel post packages of merchandise weighing up to 11 pounds. It 
 would facilitate business, not alone for ourselves, but our vast number of country 
 customers. 
 We respectfully request your most favorable consideration. 
 Yours, respectfully, 
 
 The May Department Stoees Co. 
 By S. B. Baxter, Secretary. 
 
 B. Nugent & Bro. Dry Goods Co., 
 
 January 8, 1912. 
 Honorable Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads 
 
 of the Senate of the United States, 
 
 Washington, D. C. 
 Gentlemen: Referring to Senate bill No. 3558, introduced by Senator O'Gorman, 
 H. R. 14; by Congressman Sulzer, both of New York, we beg to say: 
 
 Believing that whatever is for the benefit of the greatest number of the citizens of 
 the United States is for our benefit, and believing that the Sulzer bill is for the benefit 
 of the greatest number, and that it will greatly facilitate free interchange among all 
 the citizens of this country, we beg to urge your favorable consideration of it. 
 Yours, very truly, 
 
 B. Nugent & Bro. Dry Goods Co. 
 By F. C. Lake, Secretary and Treasurer. 
 
 William Barr Dry Goods Co., 
 
 St. Louis, January 2, 1912. 
 Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads, 
 
 Washington, D. C. 
 Gentlemen: We beg to urge upon you favorable consideration of the Sulzer bill, 
 advocating and favoring parcel post. 
 
 We believe it to be to the interests of the entire country that this bill become a law, 
 therefore trust you will give this bill most favorable consideration. 
 
 William Bare Dry Goods Co. 
 By Moses Shoenberg, President. 
 
 Scruggs-Vandervoort-Barney Dry Goods Co., 
 
 St. Louis, January 3, 1912. 
 
 Honorable Committee Post Offices and Post Roads 
 
 of the United States Senate, 
 
 Washington, D. C. 
 
 Gentlemen: Believing, as we do, that there is nothing that adds to-day in the 
 general advancement of all conditions than that of service, and believing that the 
 parcel post service will stimulate the Post Office Department; that it will aid in 
 serving the great masses equally; that it will aid in the development of greater volumes 
 of business, and thus create greater demands for commodities, thus aiding the manu- 
 facturer, the merchant, and the laborers of such institutions; and developing the 
 general interchange of business throughout the United States as never before; giving 
 service in such a manner that all elements of business and the general public at 
 large would be equally benefited, we respectfully urge the passing of Senate bill 
 No. 3558, introduced by Senator O'Gorman, H. R. 14, by Congressman Sulzer. 
 Yours, very respectfully, 
 
 Scruggs-Vandervoort-Barney Dry Goods Co . 
 
 M. L. Nierson, President. 
 
1044 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Stix, Baer & Fuller Dry Goods Co., 
 
 St. Louis, January 2, 1912. 
 
 Honorable Committee Post Offices and Post Roads 
 
 of the United States Senate, 
 
 Washington, D. C. 
 
 Sirs: We respectfully solicit your favorable consideration of the Sulzer bill in the 
 Senate by Senator O'Gorman, and known as Senate bill No. 3558. 
 
 The parcel post would give every citizen, no matter how far distant from the differ- 
 ent sources of supply, the advantage of delivery of packages enjoyed now only by 
 people living in the large cities. Our legislation is endeavoring to give the consuming 
 public the advantage of competition, and it certainly would be of the greatest advan- 
 tage to have competition from all over the country, instead of limiting it to various 
 local centers. It would give the country districts certain advantages which they 
 do not enjoy at present by bringing them in closer touch with the outside world, and 
 these facilities would be a large factor in making life in country districts more pleasant, 
 and consequently would be an aid to the "back to the farm" movement. 
 
 It will hurt the merchant that depends upon his local trade, regardless of their 
 needs, but would be an advantage to every merchant, big or little, who is desirous of 
 increasing his trade by meeting competition. It would increase the business through 
 the country by facilitating the sale of such articles of merchandise as are sold almost 
 exclusively now in large cities; and educating the people to these wants, it would 
 give the country merchant an opportunity of selling certain lines of merchandise 
 which he never has handled to any extent hitherto, while I am president of one of 
 the largest stores, I have given the matter considerable thought, and while I believe 
 my interests are with the enactment of this bill, it would benefit most the great con- 
 suming public. It unquestionably would be the greatest boon to the vast consuming 
 public of this country in both urban and country districts, giving them markets in 
 the entire country, both for the sale of their products and the purchase of their needs. 
 
 It appears rather illogical that a merchant of this country should be placed at a dis- 
 advantage with the merchants of foreign countries in the sending of packages to people 
 of our own country, and citizens, as well as the merchants of this country, are en- 
 titled to be treated justly and in consideration of the interests of the entire country. 
 Respectfully, 
 
 Stix, Baer & Fuller Dry Goods Co. 
 Chas. A. Stix, President. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, in your testimony before the committee, 
 will you kindly specify where you express the views of the organiza- 
 tion as such, according to your understanding, and where you are 
 giving your own personal views based upon the exhaustive study you 
 have made of the subject yourself? 
 
 Mr. Williams. The views of the association, so far as I am familiar 
 with them, are embraced in these letters which I have filed with you, 
 and which I have read to you; they are at least from a number of 
 the more important houses. I happen to know, however, their 
 manager, Mr. Coffin, and a number of their members are quite familiar 
 with my study of the subject, and I assume that the request coming 
 to me, as it did, without any solicitation or suggestion upon my part, is 
 inferential thaj they are in substantial accord with my position upon 
 these questions. 
 
 The Chairman. As I understand, you have given at the House 
 hearings your views, so that they will be contained in the last hearings 
 in full, will they not, quite extensively ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. Quite extensively, at the House hearings last June. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, in order not to duplicate, will you kindly 
 give the committee the benefit, briefly, of your conclusion regarding 
 the subject, and then such new viewpoints as may have occurred to 
 you in your subsequent study ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. Yes. I think that President J. Q. Adams, in his 
 first message to Congress, expressed a proper use of the postal system 
 in the neatest language in which such use lias ever been expressed. 
 
He said this : That it ' ' embraces tiie comforts of friendly correspond- 
 ence, the exchange of internal traffic, and the lights of the periodical 
 press may be distributed to the remotest corners of the Union at a 
 charge scarcely perceptible to any individual and without the cost of 
 a dollar to the Public Treasury." The House Committee on Post 
 Offices and Post Roads, in a report which they submitted in February, 
 1844, expressed the trouble which confronts this committee, or the 
 Congress, in what I think are quite accurate words, that it "presents 
 a question no less momentous than this: Whether the Constitution 
 and laws of the country or a lawless combination of refractory indi- 
 viduals shall triumph?" There is an interesting recent discovery of 
 mine as to the circumstances whereby the rate of 8 cents a pound, 
 which was on matter which is now called fourth-class matter as well 
 as what at that time was third-class matter, became increased to a 
 rate of 1 cent per ounce, or 16 cents a pound. This discovery I have 
 made since the submission of my testimony before the House com- 
 mittee. It presents a striking example of the evils of hasty legislation 
 in the closing hours of a crowded Congress. On the Post Office appro- 
 priation bill which was passed on March 3, 1879, there was incor- 
 porated some 40 sections materially changing the laws and postage 
 rates with reference to classification, and several other matters. 
 
 The Chairman. Was that on the floor of the House or on the floor 
 of the Senate ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. It was offered as an amendment in the Senate. 
 
 The Chairman. On the floor ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. Yes; offered as an amendment on the floor. 
 During the various discussions of that amendment there occurred 
 this short conversation — if discussions on the floor of the Senate should 
 be termed conversation: In the proceedings of February 20, 1879, on 
 page 1663 of that day, in the second column, Mr. Merimon asked this 
 question: "Does it increase or decrease the rate of postage?" He 
 was replied to by the gentleman in charge of the bill, Senator Ferry, 
 in this language : " It does not change the rate of postage ; it simplifies 
 the classification." While I have not checked the Journal record abso- 
 lutely and could not state it as an absolute fact, yet going as carefully 
 through the records as I could, and through the bill as it originally 
 came to the Senate, and through the amendments as proposed, I am 
 forced to the conclusion that the statement that Senator Ferry made 
 seems to have been accepted by his fellow Senators and was acted on 
 by them later the next few days — as you see this was February 20 and 
 the bill was passed March 3. His statement was accepted at its face, 
 when as a matter of fact, unless I am greatly in error, and I do not 
 think I am, his answer was inaccurate in both of the statements, 
 because the amendment did change the rate of postage, and instead of 
 simplifying the classification, it added an additional item of classifica- 
 tion. There were only three classes of mail matter at that time. The 
 rate was 8 cents a pound, and when this bill passed and became a law 
 there were four classes of mail matter, and the rate upon what had been 
 third class was 16 cents a pound, or 1 cent an ounce, instead of half a 
 cent an ounce. 
 
 There was mentioned yesterday the matter of the contract between 
 the British Government and the American Express Co. This is a 
 matter of public record, but I had personally quite a lot of trouble 
 in getting it out from its hidden places. Discovering from the British 
 
1046 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 Postal Guide the suggestion that possibly such a contract was in exist- 
 ence, I applied to the Interstate Commerce Commission in October 
 or November, 1910, for a copy, knowing that under the law all con- 
 tracts between transportation compames were required to be filed 
 there. I was promptly advised that no such contract was on file with 
 the Interstate Commerce Commission. Express companies generally 
 seem to have enjoyed a peculiar immunity in respect to legislation 
 concerning them. Only within the past year have any particular 
 statistics ever been available as to their operations, and that is the first; 
 report of the Interstate Commerce Commission concerning the business 
 of express compames. In the provisions for taking the census for the 
 year 1900, in some way they were left out, until their statistical figures 
 were only partially obtained by the inquiry of the Census Bureau. 
 I believe the Hepburn bill, in 1906, was the first bill that specifically 
 brought the express companies under the jurisdiction of the Inter- 
 state Commerce Commission; that was in 1906, I believe. You gen- 
 tlemen are, quite likely, familiar with that. Recurring to this contract 
 between the British Government and the American Express Co., I 
 suggested to the Interstate Commerce Commission, in view of the 
 statute and the almost certainty that such a contract was in exist- 
 ence, that it would be a reasonable and proper activity for them to 
 secure it, and members of the commission, through their proper 
 authorities, were indeed very prompt in proceeding to acquire this 
 contract. It became available for public use or examination in the 
 following February or the late days of January, 1911. There was 
 a resolution introduced in the House calling for it — which, by the way, 
 was at my suggestion — and it was sent to the House and printed as 
 House Report No. 2189, Sixty-first Congress, third session. Its rates 
 are set forth as to its contract with the British Government. 
 
 The Chairman. We would like particularly, Mr. Williams, the part 
 of the contract bearing on this particular point. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Yes. I read- 
 
 For every American parcel addressed to a place in New York, Brooklyn, Jersey City, 
 or Hoboken, where the weight of the parcel does not exceed 3 pounds, 6 pence — 
 
 which I believe is about equivalent to 12 cents of our money — 
 
 where the weight of the parcel exceeds 3 pounds, but does not exceed 7 pounds, 1 
 shilling; where the weight of the parcel exceeds 7 pounds, but does not exceed 11 
 pounds, 1 shilling 6 pence. There shall be payable on every American parcel ad- 
 dressed to any place in the mainland territory of the United States not situate in New 
 York, Brooklyn, Jersey City, or Hoboken, where the weight of the parcel does not 
 exceed 3 pounds, 1 shilling 6 pence; where the weight of the parcel exceeds 3 pounds, 
 but does not exceed 7 pounds, 2 shillings; where the weight of the parcel exceeds 7 
 pounds, but does not exceed 11 pounds, 2 shillings 6 pence. 
 
 Mr. Beistow. That is a much cheaper rate than the American 
 Express Co. now handles business for for the American people. 
 
 Mr. Williams. A very decidedly cheaper rate, Senator. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Who are the parties to that contract ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. The parties to that contract are the British Govern- 
 ment and the American Express Co. My information is that all the 
 other express companies accept these parcels from the American 
 Express Co. and share by some sort of distribution in the revenue 
 derived therefrom. In other words, if a parcel is received by the 
 American Express Co. and it has to be finally delivered by the Wells- 
 Fargo, they settle between themselves, and that is a flat rate covering 
 
the entire mainland territory of the United States. In other words, 
 the only zone there is in it embraces New York City, Brooklyn, Jersey 
 City, and Hoboken. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Now, there is a reciprocal rate, as I understand 
 it, from this country to great Britain. Is there any arrangement for 
 shipping packages from this country to Great Britain at all ? Does 
 our Government make any reciprocal arrangements ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. This is not between governments at all. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Yesterday it was stated we could ship parcels 
 from this country to Great Britain. 
 
 Mr. Williams. That is a parcel post up to 11 pounds. This is an 
 agreement between the British Government and the American 
 Express Co., operating in this country. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Oh, yes ; I understand. I misunderstood which 
 contract that was. 
 
 Mr. Williams. My information from officials of the Interstate 
 Commerce Commission is that the American Express Co. claimed that 
 this contract provides them about the same relative proportion of 
 earnings or profits on the business handled under it as their ordinary 
 Amercian business does. I can quite appreciate how that is accurate, 
 but it would depend, of course, very largely upon the distance the 
 majority of those parcels are handled; quite likely a majority of the 
 parcels they handle under that contract, except in exceptional cases, 
 do not go into the interior .part of the country. The bulk of the busi- 
 ness, I think, would be around New York City. An interesting phase 
 of this subject which I do not think I alluded to in my remarks before 
 the House committee last June, was with respect to the large stores, of 
 which you gentlemen heard this afternoon, assuming the delivery cost 
 on parcels. I happened to be in the city of Philadelphia upon the 
 morning the Wanamaker stores began their fiftieth year of business, 
 and on opening my morning paper I was confronted with a double- 
 page advertisement, wherein the Wanamaker stores in Philadelphia 
 announced a change of policy with respect to the delivery of their 
 merchandise beginning with their fifty-first year of business. That 
 was that on a purchaser buying any article in their store or any num- 
 ber of articles amounting to $5 the store would assume and absorb 
 the delivery charge, if my memory serves me right, within approxi- 
 mately 500 miles of Philadelphia, either using the freight or express, 
 as the store desired, or if it was an article that fell within mail classi- 
 fication, if it could be sent by mail, less than 4 pounds in weight, the 
 delivery charge would be absorbed to any distance where the United 
 States mail went, whether to the Philippines or anywhere else. 
 
 The Chairman. On a $5 order? 
 
 Mr. Williams. On a $5 order. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That would be a maximum charge of 64 cents 
 for delivery ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. A maximum charge of 64 cents. I may say that 
 I happened to be in Philadelphia a little later on — that former 
 instance I illustrated being about two years ago the coming Feb- 
 ruary — and I bought a lady's sweater for Mrs. Williams. I was on 
 my way to Washington at the time, and the price of the sweater was 
 exactly $5. They mailed that sweater to Fayetteville, Ark. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you know how much it weighed ? 
 
1048 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Williams. I should say about 3£ pounds. It was a lady's 
 ordinary sweater, rather a heavy grade. 
 
 The Chairman. The cost price was what ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. The cost was $5. 
 
 The Chairman. That cost them 13 per cent profit? 
 
 Mr. Williams. I do not know, but it cost me the same amount 
 as if I lived in Philadelphia. 
 
 The Chairman. It cost them 13 per cent. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Of that particular item. This seems likely to be 
 an evolution of marketing of merchandise; that is, that the merchant 
 will absorb the cost of his delivery and take that into his overhead 
 charges, as he does his rent, his fuel, light, and clerk hire, and the 
 instance given by one of the witnesses this afternoon I think shows 
 a tendency in that direction, particularly as population thickens 
 about centers, because they realize that the bulk of their business will 
 not be through people who happen to drop into their store from a 
 thousand miles away, but those who come m on the suburban trains 
 and trolleys, and who walk in from walking distances of their places 
 of business and residences. To my mind I think that effectually 
 refutes the idea that the small dealer is menaced by the adoption of 
 a parcel-post system. 
 
 The Chairman. Elaborate that a little more, will you, Mr. Williams ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. As Mr. Wanamaker's place of business has been 
 referred to, we will use his place as an illustration. I do not know 
 how many of you gentlemen are familiar with it, but the subway 
 that operates in Philadelphia has a station under his store or under 
 a part of it, or practically at the edge of it. You can take the down- 
 town subway at Philadelphia and get off at Wanamaker's store, 
 walk inside of his store, do 3^our shopping, leave his store and go 
 home, and never be out of doors. 
 
 The Chairma'n. Well, he sells to Philadelphians as well as to 
 people living miles away ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. He carries, I believe, a two million dollar stock 
 all the time. I do not think the Wanamaker stores use catalogues 
 except in a very limited way. Now, there are probably as many 
 small storekeepers about Philadelphia as there are around St. Louis, 
 and with the latter town I am more familiar, but the small store- 
 keeper within a radius of 20 or 25 miles of the cities is as plentiful 
 to-day as he was before those stores had grown to their large propor- 
 tions. The wagons of these stores and their delivery systems pass 
 their doors every day, and yet there are as many of these storekeepers 
 making a living and seemingly doing as much business, and every 
 now and then you see one growing very rapidly. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is denied by the retail merchant organi- 
 zations that have appeared before us. They say there are not so 
 many retail stores, or at least there is a reduct'on in the number, or 
 there are a fewer number of men engaged, clerks, etc. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Perhaps, taking the entire country over, that is 
 very likely true, but I was confining my illustration to the effect 
 that these larger stores would receive the great benefits of an in- 
 creased parcel-post service; that the concentration is rather in the 
 smaller places than it is in what you might call the larger cities. 
 
 Senator Bristow. There is a great increase in the population of 
 the cities, and that would necessarily produce a larger number of 
 
PARCEL POST. 1049 
 
 dealers because of the increased population. If the population had 
 not increased, there might have been fewer dealers there. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Certainly. Then there is this other feature, that 
 no bill that I have ever seen relating to the subject of a parcel post 
 does more than transfer a portion of this carrying agency from the 
 existing transportation agencies to the Federal Government. Now, 
 the change of a transportation agency will not increase, neither will it 
 decrease, the consumption or the use of a particular commodity — 
 that is, it will not cause more tons of goods to move than move 
 to-day, and if anything, I rather think most of those bills pending 
 that I have seen would tend to put a halt upon some of it, at least if 
 the Government should exercise a monopoly with reference to it, 
 because the rates are very little, if any, cheaper than existing express 
 rates. The statistics of the Interestate Commerce Commission 
 show that 60 per cent, and I believe a higher percentage than that, 
 of the business of the express companies is done at a total charge of 
 less than $6 a hundred. Now, the parcel rate is $8 a hundred. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That includes a great deal of heavy traffic, and 
 for short distances ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. And a great deal of low-rate traffic that the Gov- 
 ernment would not take under any kind of a parcel-post law. 
 
 The Chairmax. What the express companies seek is weighty 
 packages rather than small packages; they do not care to handle 
 pound packages, or less than pound packages; do they? 
 
 Mr. Williams. Xo; not less than pound packages, but when you 
 get to a pound, I am not so sure as to that, Senator, for the reason 
 that where the mail rate is 16 cents, their rate is 3 5, and then they 
 cut under right straight along, from where 2 pounds would be 36 
 cents, they make it 34 or 35. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The distance becomes so great it is not profitable 
 for them to take it '. 
 
 Mr. Williams. They let the Government take it. But I believe 
 that tariff does not begin to apply until after you have left the 4 
 pounds; it perhaps does then, before the 4 pounds is reached, on 
 extreme long distances. Then some statistics show that the average 
 express parcels weigh only 25 pounds; that is, of shipments of 100 
 pounds or less. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I thought the study of the Interstate Com- 
 merce Commission led them to believe that it was 34 to 36 pounds. 
 
 •Mr. Williams. Well, that may be true; this is in the first report. 
 So, what seems to be the solution with reference to parcel post is that 
 what the Government wants is the better part of this business and 
 that part of it that originally belonged to it, and which escaped in the 
 manner I have indicated and which has so long been unreclaimed, 
 and it is the desirable portion. Really the parcel post will not. 
 effect any serious change in merchandising methods, but will prove 
 of vast convenience to a great many people, meeting their unusual 
 needs in the way of merchandising, and those unusual needs will of 
 course sometimes go a long ways from home, as they do to-day, but 
 their average needs will never be affected by a parcel post, because 
 any rate that has ever been suggested is a prohibitive one, so far as 
 adding to or making an increase of consumption of merchandise is 
 concerned. 
 
 21845— vol 4—12 12 
 
1050 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is, it is not competitive with the freight 
 rate ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. It is not competitive with the freight rate; and 
 while if you were in need of a particular class of chisel for nice cabi- 
 network and you knew just where you could get it, even if it was in 
 Germany, you would get it regardless of the cost, but if you wanted 
 an ordinary carpenter's chisel you would go to the hardware store 
 and get it. Likewise, performing this reasonable need for the people 
 of the country the Government makes a compensatoiy revenue, and 
 on the subject of revenue it seems to me the rate suggested by this 
 contract between the British Government and the American Express 
 Co. is at least a very good guide and these rates run pretty close to 
 some of the bills that have been presented to Congress. Now, I 
 should not personally favor a rate of one-half a cent an ounce. 
 Rather, I would favor a cent-per-ounce rate until you reach a half 
 a pound, because if I have only a 2-ounce package, if I were to send 
 it anywhere I should certainly not object to paying the Government 
 2 cents for carrying it. Then when you have reached a half pound, 
 instead of making it a cent for each 2 ounces or fraction thereof, 
 make it 2 cents for each 4 ounces or fraction thereof, so as to give 
 all of the fractions to the GoA'ernment. Then your first pound 
 would be 12 cents and each additional pound would be 8 cents. 
 Two pounds would be 20 cents; 3 pounds, 28 cents, until you had 
 your 11-pound package at 92 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. That is for the whole country? 
 
 Mr. Williams. So far as the rates for the whole country are 
 concerned. 
 
 The Chairman. Including the insular possessions? 
 
 Mr. Williams. Yes. Now I am inclined to favor the idea, and I 
 do this from a long study of the subject, so it might be proper for me 
 to say that my interest was entirely a public-spirited one. 1. was 
 United States commissioner when I became impressed with the idea 
 that the laws ot the United States were not being enlorced with 
 respect to the transportation of mailable matter. I should say I 
 would be in favor of one zone, or rather taking the whole matter 
 together as comprising two rates upon fourth-class matter. The 
 same considerations for making rates on fourth-class matter do not 
 exist as to first and second class matter. The general welfare of the 
 country demands that the widest facility shall be afforded for the 
 interchange of personal correspondence, or, as President Adams said, 
 "the exchanges of friendly correspondence." The same considera- 
 tion applies with reference to the dissemination of intelligence and 
 the citizen being acquainted with the operations and practice of his 
 Government through the "lights of the periodical press," but when 
 it comes to the "exchanges of internal traffic" I do not regard it as 
 being a matter within the proper consideration of the public welfare 
 to say that I shall have an opportunity to buy my shoes by mail made 
 in Massachusetts the same as I would those made in St. Louis. That 
 is a matter of accommodation. A shoe is a shoe, and if I want to go 
 a long ways from home 1 think I should rather be discouraged in 
 doing so, so far as any rate is concerned. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The expenses which the Government or the 
 agency, whatever it was, would necessarily have to incur in serving 
 you that long distance you ought to pay for, ought you not? 
 
PARCEL POST. 1051 
 
 Mr. Williams. Unquestionably. If I liked to go that distance I 
 should pay the bill. But there is this observation, which I think a 
 great many exaggerate, and that is that in our transactions, so far as 
 dealing in merchandize is concerned, we have a tendency to go a long 
 ways ; I think the natural tendency is directly the other way, except for 
 those particular and peculiar needs that occasionally occur in every 
 one's business operations. Just think of yourself, or I think of my 
 own experience; of all the packages that I have occasion to receive 
 or to send, a very heavy percentage of them go relatively short dis- 
 tances. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean through the mail ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. No; I mean all small packages which I have occa- 
 sion to send or receive. While I do not think I have any statistics 
 available as to the haul of express packages, I an convinced, from 
 all the information I have been able to gather, that the average haul 
 of the express package is not very far; I do not think it travels more 
 than 100 or 200 miles, taking the whole country over. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, I would rather question that in view of the 
 large amount of fruit shipped from the Pacific Coast to the Atlantic 
 by express. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They do not ship from the Pacific coast to the 
 Atlantic by express. 
 
 The Chairman. Oh, ves. 
 
 Mr. Williams. I rather had in mind, Senator, those articles that 
 would go under a parcel post through the mails. If you take the 
 fruit shipments and car shipments that go by express in full carload 
 lots, takmg those all into consideration, it would not be true ; but tak- 
 ing 11 pounds as a parcel-post maximum the packages would not 
 average more than a 200-mile haul. 
 
 The Chairman. Three or four pounds is probably the average 
 weight. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Three or four pounds is about the average weight, 
 and those packages do hot travel, in my judgment, beyond 200 miles 
 on an average. I should prefer one zone of 50 miles, making the initial 
 point on the rural route, and any point on that route counting the 
 same as the initial route for the measuring point. 
 
 For this reason, that 50 miles will not retract, but rather will open 
 to the residents on that rural route some kind of a reasonable market, 
 and in most instances several reasonable markets, both for marketing 
 Such products as a parcel post might carry and for buying such arti- 
 cles as a person's needs might reasonably require. On that I think a 
 lower rate might properly be made. 
 
 The Chairman. But wouldn't you restrict that first zone entirely 
 to a merchant on a rural route 1 You do not apply that to every post 
 office on a rural route ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. Yes; every post office, on the rural route. The 
 point 50 miles from where the route would start from would be the 
 place of initiation of that rural route. That fits the situation as sug- 
 gested by some of the witnesses here. I believe Mr. Henry brought 
 up the reference in regard to Madison, Wis., that the rural route starts 
 out from a town near Madison, Wis., which is considered only a cross- 
 roads store. 
 
 The Chairman. I would like for you to criticize this: Your mini- 
 mum zone and cost is confined to your rural route, initiation and de- 
 
1052 PARCEL POST. 
 
 livery ou that route; your second zone a 50-mile radius for every post 
 office in the United States; and then your general zone. 
 
 Mr. Williams. The criticism I see to a parcel-post service con- 
 fined to rural routes exclusively, is that it does not go anywhere. 
 
 The Chairman. It is not a rural route exclusively, so far as the low- 
 est rate is concerned. 
 
 Mr. Williams. I understand that, but that service does not go any- 
 where. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It goes from the country store out to the farmer. 
 
 Mr. Williams. From the country store out to the farmer; it goes 
 from the farmer in to the country store. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why should not that be the minimum rate; that 
 is, the minimum cost and the minimum service. 
 
 The Chairman. And the present waste under the governmental 
 operation. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Theoretically, I think that is sound ; but practically, 
 owing to the fact that it has been found to be proper administration, 
 and undoubtedly it is correct administration, to drop the mails for 
 even rural routes, and to start such rural routes away from the city 
 rather than from the central post office, it does not afford either a 
 market in or a market out for such routes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But the mail is delivered just the same from the 
 city post office out to the station. The route starts from there, in- 
 stead of having the carrier drive 5 miles through town. It is sim- 
 ply the facility for carrying it from the post office to a convenient 
 starting point for the wagon. 
 
 Mr. Williams. And for the purpose of a parcel-post service on the 
 rural route, that very fact would make the use of such parcel-post 
 service upon the rural route exceedingly minimized. 
 
 Senator Bristow. There is a rural route out of Madison? 
 
 Mr. Williams. It does not go out of Madison. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It goes out of Madisonpost office and gets its 
 supply from the station in the Madison post office. 
 
 Mr. Williams. I do not so understand it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, it certainly is, just the same. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Then, how do I understand you, that a parcel 
 mailed for a citizen in Wisconsin, under a proposed route service, 
 as suggested there, would be both delivered and received regardless 
 of this particular method? 
 
 Senator Bristow. If that is a post office outside of the city of 
 Madison, of course the mail is thrown off there the same as it would 
 be for any other post office anywhere on a railroad. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Certainly. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Because you take a post office adjacent to a 
 large city and make that an illustration to apply to the 42,000 rural 
 routes. You are taking a very few and applying it to the vast number. 
 It would not be a fair comparison. 
 
 Mr. Williams. A very few in number, as it appeals to me, but a 
 large portion of the service to the citizen. 
 
 Senator Bristow. No. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Not from a territorial standpoint and not -from a 
 number, but from those that would be interested in using a parcel- 
 post service. 
 
.TA.KU1S.Li ±*UST. J.U03 
 
 Senator Bristow. I can not see that. Now, to illustrate, there will 
 be a few hundred routes that will start from post-offices adjacent to 
 large cities. Your criticism is that a rural-route delivery will not 
 enable the farmer to get 
 
 Mr. Williams. Either in or out of the market. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Either in or out of that city market. He comes 
 to his local post office, which in this instance is a poor market, but 
 while there may be 1,000 or possibly 2,000 of such routes, there would 
 be 40,000 routes that started from the market which the farmer has, 
 where he gets his goods from and where he sells his local stuff. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Certainly. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, you are taking these few new places and 
 saying it was of no benefit, comparatively, and applying that to the 
 entire service, which is not a fair comparison. 
 
 Mr. Williams. No. Kather, I mean this: That of the 40,000 you 
 mention, a very heavy proportion of those are not the kind of routes, 
 or> rather the citizens upon them are not those who would make large 
 use of a parcel-post service, while those on the smaller number of 
 routes are the ones who will, because they have a larger market. 
 There is a rural route out from a star route and any number of them 
 in -the country; my father lived on one 20 miles off of any railroad. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They are comparatively few, considering the 
 whole number. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Comparatively few; but take any of the routes 
 with which I am familiar, in Arkansas, a parcel-post service will pro- 
 duce a minimum amount of revenue. However, a rural-route oper- 
 ating into a reasonably fair-sized city that surrounds a pretty good 
 market and on which route there are numbers of poultry dealers, and 
 truck gardeners, and people in occupations of that kind, will pro- 
 duce a volume of revenue. 
 
 The Chairman. On the other hand, you have this peculiar con- 
 dition existing, that you have a rural-delivery system already estab- 
 lished and paid for in its establishment and cost of operation, capable 
 of being increased in the volume of business many times, differing 
 according to the evidence submitted here, from an increase of 400 
 per cent up to several thousand per cent. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Undoubtedly. 
 
 The Chairman. So this is rather unique. Now, up to the point of 
 utilization of that apparent waste, it stands by itself, does it not ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. It stands by itself, undoubtedly. But the point I 
 want to get clear is, that of the large volume of these routes, although 
 you may open the mails or packages on them, you won't produce 
 much business. 
 
 The Chairman. Unless you utilize it as a method of transportation 
 for the producers to get their product to market, provided the market 
 does exist on that route. 
 
 Mr. Williams. That is the idea. Now, of the number that lead 
 into the larger markets, a considerable percentage are such that start 
 out from the small place close to the larger market. Now, I have not 
 made a tabulation of that, but there are a good many. If you will 
 take the routes going out from cities of 10,000 people and over, which 
 is a pretty good produce market, if you take all the routes going out 
 of cities of that size, actually leaving from the central post office or a 
 
1054 PARCEL POST. 
 
 substation of such office, and then see how many there are that just 
 circle, if you start out in a mile or 2 miles or 5 miles of these particular 
 cities, I think you will find that they will very greatly exceed those 
 that go into those actual towns of 10,000 and above. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I want to state from personal knowledge that 
 you are mistaken as to the facts. They do not start from towns 
 adjacent to these large post offices of 10,000 people or more. I know 
 in my own State, and I think Senator Swanson can certify as to his 
 State, that they go out from the post offices. In Topeka, for in- 
 stance, they go from the post office there. I live in a town of 10,000 
 people, and seven routes all go from the post-office building, and 
 until you get into the large city, where the distance from the main 
 post office to the station is several miles of travel, the tendency is for 
 the routes to start from the main office, where proper conveyance 
 can be secured; so they are using in some places automobiles, and 
 motor cycles and things of that kind. Cases such as the Madison 
 case are not frequent compared with the entire number. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Of course, I have never checked that schedule or 
 anything of that kind. I simply mention that that seems to me to 
 be the situation. 
 
 Senator Swanson. The trouble there is the proper location of the 
 rural route. Very frequently, for some political or some special occa- 
 sion, they will continue a large post office 4 or 5 miles from a 
 city that ought to be discontinued and send from the large city, but 
 that is becoming less and less each year, and it is now the exception 
 rather than the rule, for the simple reason the people get indignant 
 over the fact that the country merchant or the postmaster at the 
 small village uses his influence and sometimes he even sends in a 
 request that the route start from the natural location. 
 
 Now, let me ask you this question: Your idea of the classification 
 is simply a classification in the rural route, where there is no addi- 
 tional expense to the Government, for it pays nothing for the star 
 route, it pays nothing for the railroads, and those routes go from 
 either towns, villages, or country stores out to the people who 
 are accommodated. Now, why should you have a rate for that 
 the same as you would a rate for 50 miles where they must 
 pay the railroad company and the star route something, and the 
 Government has the additional expense to furnish that additional 
 accommodation for the dual handling ? I understand the chairman 
 and some of us have insisted that a rural route costing no addi- 
 tional expense to the Government, the Government simply having' 
 a carrier on a salary to come in and go out with the packages, ought 
 to put the rate at a very low and nominal sum, and it accommodates 
 a great many people. Then have another rate, as you suggest, for 
 25 or 50 miles, and if a man wanted a package to go farther than his 
 rural route, let him put on a second stamp. 
 
 Mr. Williams. After a full consideration of these phases of the 
 matter, I can see no serious objection to that, but I do think the 
 rural routes zone, one at 50 miles, and then the rest of the county, 
 is quite sufficient so far as zones are concerned. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why would you limit it to one zone? 
 
 Mr. Williams. Of 50 miles? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. 
 
i'AECEL POST. 1055 
 
 Mr. Williams. That would put practically every person in this 
 cauntry in reach both in and out of a fair market and would make 
 that at a lower rate than the other one, so that the embargo upon 
 his trading at home is rather insisted upon than discouraged. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Then the increase from the first zone to the 
 second zone necessarily would be quite a large increase. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Yes; I think so. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Then you would' have a large scope of territory 
 from the 50 miles out where the express companies could take it at a 
 less rate and deprive the Government of that business, which, other- 
 wise, if it had a lower rate, it would get ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. Undoubtedly. 
 
 The Chairman. But, as I understand, Senator, Mr. Williams predi- 
 cates his position on the assumption that the bulk of the business 
 won't be a haul of over 100 or 200 miles. Assuming from the present 
 experience of the express companies the business the Government 
 would absorb, if it absorbed all the business, it would handle all that 
 particular line Under an 11-pound-weight limit. The average haul 
 would not be over 100 or 200 miles. Is that correct? 
 
 Mr. Williams. That is substantially correct. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But- the Government would not get the business 
 that was profitable, because the express companies, as they do now, 
 would cut under the Government rate, so that the Government would 
 have left hauling the long packages, where there was no profit, and the 
 express companies would take the short hauls, where there is a profit, 
 as they do now. 
 
 Mr. Williams. There are just two solutions to that: One is an 
 absolute legal monopoly that was enacted into law in 1845 and en- 
 forced for a great many years. The other is such a competition and 
 service so efficient a.nd satisfactory that only a minimum amount of 
 shipments would go by express. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why not simplify that by simply increasing the 
 number of your zones 'I 
 
 Mr. Williams. Then you complicate it in other ways. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose it can be done without complication, 
 as I think it can be easily. Now, if my theory is correct on that, 
 isn't that a better solution of it 1 
 
 Mr. Williams. Predicated upon the fact that your theory is cor- 
 rect, it perhaps would be a better solution. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If I can not demonstrate that it is, I do not ask 
 that it be accepted. 
 
 Mr. Williams. The post office fixes its rate by act of Congress; 
 Congress sets down its zones of 500 miles, equivalent to the express 
 zone in that distance. 
 
 Senator Bristow. We will say 50 miles and 150 miles as the line 
 of demarcation for the zones. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Congress, in its judgment, reaches its conclusion for 
 50 and 150, and so on. The express company looks your tariff over 
 and says that 50 miles we will let go ; you have struck a rate there that 
 is not profitable and we will let you have that; but that next 100 
 miles out there, for 75 miles of that, -that would be mighty good busi- 
 ness for us, so we file a new tariff with the Interstate Commerce Com- 
 mission and take up 75 miles of that business and leave you with only 
 
1056 PAKCEL POSI. 
 
 25; then you have your haul of 75 miles before you get any revenue 
 at all. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, apply the same rule you give to the 150- 
 mile zone to your limited zone, and where are you ? Instead of giving 
 75 miles you have given them 1,500 miles, where they will take advan- 
 tage of it. You have given it all outside of 50, while we are restricting 
 it to very narrow limits in each zone. 
 
 Mr. Williams. That is compensated in a measure, at least, by the 
 fact that only a minimum amount of these parcels ever travel long 
 distances — a minimum amount of the mail parcels. The express 
 companies will still do business as they do now, and carry carloads of 
 fruit and merchandise to and from the Pacific coast; but matter that 
 is designed to go by post, the volume of it is not of long-distance 
 character, as a rule. 
 
 Senator Bristow. We had the testimony here the other day from 
 a catalogue-house man, who said that the average distance that he 
 estimated would be 500 miles. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Doubtless he intended to apply that to their activi- 
 ties. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. If it is agreeable to the committee, and Mr. Wil- 
 liams can come back in the morning at 11 o'clock, we will take an 
 adjournment until that time. 
 
 (Thereupon, at 5.50 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until 
 11 o'clock a. m., Saturday, January 6, 1912.) 
 
SATURDAY, JANUARY 6, 1912. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), and Senator 
 Joseph L. Bristow. 
 
 CONTINUATION OF TESTIMONY OF MR. NATHAN B. WILLIAMS. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Williams, -wall you kindly resume your testi- 
 mony before the committee 1 
 
 Mr. Williams One of the problems to which I was addressing myself 
 at the time of adjournment yesterday was in respect to how the com- 
 petition of other carriers would be met if such carriers are enabled to 
 and do take in the carriage of classes of mail matter in which compe- 
 tition is allowed, namely, second, third, and fourth classes. As here- 
 tofore suggested, that might be met by the adoption of a zone system 
 comparable to the system adopted by such competing carriers, or by 
 making such carriage of mail matter unlawful — that is, establishing 
 a monopoly in the postal service. There has occurred to me a third 
 method by which this situation might be met, which, on considera- 
 tion, I am rather inclined to believe supplements and perhaps is an 
 improved method. I offer it for the consideration of the committee. 
 I would suggest that in any bill establishing a parcel-post system that 
 such bill carry a provision of law, which I roughly state as follows: 
 
 No common carrier operating over any post route now or hereafter established, or 
 from any city, town, or place to any other city, town, or place between which the mail 
 is regularly carried, shall charge, accept, or receive any other or different compensa- 
 tion for the collection, carriage, or delivery of any mailable article than that fixed 
 for the transportation of such article by or through the mails. 
 
 This would leave the only competition one of efficiency of service, 
 or to the application of the service to the particular needs of the 
 citizens of the country. 
 
 The Chairman. In enacting the law you suggest you would still 
 leave open the long haul to the Government and short hauls to the 
 private transportation interests, unless you had a series of zone sys- 
 tems, would you not ? In other words, you do not meet the objections 
 by the suggested law that you are going to give the profitable busi- 
 ness to the private enterprise and the unprofitable business to the 
 Government ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. I believe that I do, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. Not with the enactment of that law alone. You 
 would have to establish a zone system in conjunction with it or 
 establish a governmental monopoly, legally as well as impliedly, 
 through the competitive system inaugurated under the suggested 
 law, with efficiency your competing elements : is not that true ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. I do not believe you quite fully appreciate the full 
 import of the suggestion I have made, so let me illustrate it a little 
 and make it, perhaps, a little plainer. 
 
 1057 
 
1058 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. This is a suggested law to be enacted as a corol- 
 lary to either governmental monopoly of packets or else the estab- 
 lishment of an expensive zone system? 
 
 Mr. Williams. Not necessarily. In the wisdom of the Congress 
 we will assume that it determines that it will establish one rate on 
 rural routes, another rate on a 50-mile zone, and one other rate 
 taking all the rest of the country, and that it makes certain kinds or 
 classes of matter mailable matter thereunder, taking such rate and 
 fixing the class and characteristics of such matter and fixing the 
 weight limit at 11 pounds. Then, under the provision which I a 
 moment ago suggested, the railroads 
 
 The Chairman. You mean the suggested law ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. The suggested law; yes. The railroads and express 
 companies desiring to transport such matter must of necessity revise 
 their tariffs upon the exact basis at which the tariff on matter to be 
 handled by mail is made. So, if there is 1 zone, 10 zones, or no 
 zone, they must fix the same rate for the transportation of the same 
 class of matter. 
 
 The Chairman'. Well, let us confine our discussion to the concrete 
 zones that you have theoretically established, on the rural route zone, 
 say; second, a 50-mile radius zone from every post oh>e; third, the 
 general zone of the United States and its possessions. Let us, for 
 the sake of illustration, assume 5 cents the minimum, charge on your 
 rural zones, with 2 cents per pound increase over the 5-cent charge 
 per pound, 7 cents for your second zone, minimum 1 pound, and 2 
 cent'" increase per pound up to 11 pounds for the second zone; 10 
 cents for your minimum unit or charge for your third zone, with 4 
 cents per pound increase up to 1 1 pounds. Xow, with that theoretical, 
 concrete division of the country into zones, with classification or charges, 
 will you continue with your illustration so as to show that the sole 
 competition between the Government and private interests would 
 be that of e!i ; ciency? 
 
 Mr. Williams. All common carriers operating; over post roads, and 
 all railroad lines are post roads, all letter-carrier routes in cities and 
 all other lines, such as water courses, and so forth, are post roads. 
 Now, the rates for such common carriers under this suggested pro- 
 vision of the law would be the same rate as fixed by such law as the 
 postage rate upon the transportation of such articles for such dis- 
 tances. 
 
 The Chairman. Then we would have, for illustration, an 11-pound 
 package that a party in New York wanted to ship to San Francisco. 
 The postal rate would be 50 cents under this assumed rate, 10 cents 
 for the first pound and 4 cents a pound for the remaining 10 pounds. 
 Now, would there not be an intermediate zone or point at which the 
 express company would say that it did not care to take this busi- 
 ness; that it would let the Government take it up to a certain distance, 
 1,000 miles or 2,000 miles, their experience leading them to conclude 
 that they can handle it and make a profit ? Could not they decline to 
 take it from New York to San Francisco, while they might be glad to 
 take it from New York to Chicago, and would you compel them to 
 take it if the citizen went to the express company and said this is the 
 rate and I want you to handle it ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. The rate of the express company would be exactly 
 the same as the postage rate for either the long or the short distance, 
 
PARCEL POST. 1059 
 
 the carrier being a common carrier could not refuse to receive the 
 package for a long or short distance. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose he said it was confiscatory. You can 
 not make a railroad take the freight if it is less than the cost of car- 
 riage. 
 
 The Chairman. I think there is some meat in your idea, Mr. Wil- 
 liams, but we want to work it over and study it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You can not make the express companies fix a 
 rate of 50 cents to San Francisco if it is below the compensatory 
 amount they should receive. 
 
 Mr. Williams. It is possible that they would have a right to refuse 
 and the action would not occur very often, of course. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But it does occur now. They would not take it 
 if there was not a profit in it. 
 
 The Chairman. Would not they assume that the citizen would not 
 go to the courts to adjust a matter of 50 cents ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. When the price is exactly the same the citizen 
 would go to the post office for his package, we will assume. 
 
 ■The Chairman. Who would assume? 
 
 Mr. Williams. Anyone. 
 
 The Chairman. But suppose that the citizen said to himself, here 
 I get equal service, equal cost between the express company and the 
 Government. The express office is nearer to his house than the post 
 office. He takes it to the express office, and the company states that 
 it does not care to handle it. What recourse has he ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. I think he has the recourse of requiring them to 
 accept it, and I think they must accept it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Even if they carried it at a loss? You do not 
 contend that the Government can compel the railroad companies to 
 take packages and carry them at a loss ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. I realize the force of that observation very promptly, 
 but this is a permissible competition with the inherent right of tha 
 General Government to establish a post office and to fix its rates for 
 the transportation of mailable matter. 
 
 The Chairman. Up to a point. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Up to a point that, in my judgment, lies and is 
 controlled and confined by the judgment of the Congress. 
 
 The Chairman. No, the judgment of the courts as to what is 
 confiscatory. 
 
 Mr. Williams. We are confusing one another; vou are thinking 
 of one thing, and I am thinking of another. 
 
 The Chairman. I was thinking of the rate. 
 
 Mr. Williams. I was thinking of the right of Congress to establish 
 a post-office system and to fix rates for its carriage. 
 
 The Chairman. It undoubtedly has the power to establish the 
 system and fix the rates for its carriage up to a point. It can not 
 compel any transportation company to carry at a loss or at a rate that 
 is confiscatory. 
 
 Mr. Williams. But it has, Senator, I think, without doubt the 
 right to say to an express carrier, or to any other carrier, that you 
 shall not carry at all any matter which is made by law mailable. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a different proposition. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Now, then, if we leave him the permissible com- 
 petition he must accept or leave it alone. 
 
1060 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. lie would leave it alone; that is very simple. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Very well, if he left it alone, then the Government 
 takes it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Say 3,000 miles for 50 cents, and the express 
 company will say it is glad to have the Government take it. 
 
 Mr. Williams. And you think, then, that the result there would 
 be that the citizen would send by express and pay the price. 
 
 Senator Bristow. He will do that which is the most convenient 
 and the cheapest for him to do. 
 
 Mr. Williams. There will be no difference in cost. 
 
 Senator Bristow. No; but the express companies will handle 
 business where it is profitable. They will get some of the business, 
 undoubtedly. They will not handle business where it is not profitable, 
 and the Government will get all that part they do not want. 
 
 The Chairman. There is meat in Mr. Williams's contention that 
 
 Sou establish a competitive price, and I think I see now the trend of 
 is mind in this particular law that he advocates, and you leave then 
 the only competition of efficiency and convenience, because the 
 citizen himself is the individual who initiates the action, and he will 
 go to the Government in more cases than he would go to the express 
 companies, the express companies being prohibited from completing 
 the transaction at any less cost than what the Government is willing 
 to do it for. 
 
 Mr. Williams. And the express companies refusing to transport 
 long-haul packages. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It will not refuse; it will charge more. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Such a law will prevent it charging any more. It 
 must make the same rate. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I will say, Mr. Williams, that I would be opposed 
 to the law if it were workable, as against public policy, because if the 
 express companies can render a public service for less money than the 
 Government is doing it the citizen ought to have the advantage of 
 availing himself of that service. 
 
 The Chairman. From the broadest general-welfare standpoint. 
 
 Mr. Williams. On that theory allow me to suggest that if you 
 will lift the Governmental monopoly upon first-class mail matter — — 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is a different proposition altogether. 
 
 Mr. Williams. If you will do that the large cities of the country 
 will enjoy penny postage within six months. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Of course they will, but that is a different propo- 
 sition and there is no use to inject that into this parcel-post propo- 
 sition. 
 
 Mr. Williams. There is a difference, undoubtedly; and it is like- 
 wise true of second-class matter as well. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But it is not a part of this subject. 
 
 The Chairman. Your line of difference being solely the educational 
 point, as I take it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Then, it occurs to me also that in considering the 
 parcel-post question that we are liable to get away from what I regard 
 as being a fundamental fact, that the majority of the transactions 
 would be relatively short hauls, as a matter of common experience. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is a theory, Mr. Williams, upon which a 
 great many will take issue with you. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1061 
 
 Mr. Williams. I realize that. 
 
 Senator Bristow. So I do not think wo could base a system, as 
 far asthe enactment of a law is concerned, upon a theory where there 
 is a wide difference of opinion. We would take great chances in doing 
 that. 
 
 Mr. Williams. One other observation with reference to express 
 companies, and the suggestion with reference to this particular clause 
 in the law. The express companies would be met by their own con- 
 tract with the British Government, .alluded to before the adjourn- 
 ment yesterday, which is lower than any rate which you will fix in a 
 parcel-post law. If they will carry packages for the British Govern- 
 ment on such a rate, you are certainly not discriminating against 
 them infixing such a rate and requiring them to accept that business. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, the other is a business proposition which 
 they understand. They know that it is profitable or they would not 
 do it. It is profitable, because the foreign packages go to these 
 densely populated districts in the East, where the manufacturing 
 business is and where the foreigners live. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Then they should not be permitted to discriminate 
 against any citizen, and in my opinion they are violating the inter- 
 state-commerce law. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That may be entirely true, but at the same 
 time you can not compel them to take it if it is not profitable, and 
 they would not take a business that was not profitable. If wc had 
 such a law as you suggest, the Government would be hauling these 
 foreign parcels, taking the long and unprofitable hauls, while the 
 express companies would be taking the short and profitable ones. 
 A law such as you suggest, if applied to the present contract they 
 have with the British Government, would enable them to put on the 
 Government the unprofitable packages they have. 
 
 Mr. Williams. I hardly see how that would be, when their rates, 
 under the law, would be required to be the same as that of the Post 
 Office Department. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You could not compel them to take that which 
 they did not think was profitable. 
 
 Mr. Williams. I am not right sure as to that, for the reasftn, as I 
 conceive it, any competition by private carriers in the transaction 
 of the post-office business is a permissible competition and not an 
 equal one or one in which they have any rights. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Then your proposition would virtually be that 
 the Government assumes the right of monopoly. It will permit com- 
 petition provided the rates are the same as the Government's rates, 
 on all packages for all distances. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Yes. My information is that the Interstate Com- 
 merce Commission has very seriously considered and are seriously 
 considering now requiring express rates to be so adjusted on all points 
 where they come in competition with the post office in the carriage 
 of mailable matter at the present time. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a matter for the Interstate Commerce 
 Commission to decide, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. That is very true, but it is necessary in order to 
 consider what you should have in the postal system. Now we have 
 two grants of power in the Constitution absolute to Congress that 
 affect parcel post. 
 
1062 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Affect, all mail transportation? 
 
 Mr. Williams. All mail transportation, yes. One is the post- 
 roads clause, unlimited except as it may be limited in the judgment 
 of Congress, anil the interstate commerce clause, limited by its own 
 terms. In order to have any proper self-sustaining postal system 
 with the line of demarcation between those two clauses it should be 
 clearly stated just where they meet and are permitted to overlap. 
 
 The Chairman. The legal features of the problem I do not care to go 
 into here, because they will be taken up separately. It is a matter 
 first of the advisability and the feasibility and then the legality comes 
 afterwards. There is no question in the mind of anyone as to the 
 ability of Congress to do what they desire in reference to this. What- 
 ever they determine upon as being desirable and feasible and prac- 
 ticable they have the power to do. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Now, addressing myself to that phase of the sub- 
 ject, my judgment is that the way to work out a parcel system is to 
 reduce the rate on fourth-class matter. Make, perhaps, if in the 
 judgment of Congress it is wise, and I think it is, certain preferential 
 rates as favoring the rural-route transportation, because that will 
 operate as an effectual protection to the country merchant who is 
 so abnormally alarmed as to the results of a parcel post, and let the 
 development of the system, instead of by sporadic instances of routes 
 or moderate territorial considerations in its development, go from a 
 development as to the weight limit. In other words, bring the rate 
 ■down, I should say, to a cent an ounce for the first 8 ounces, then 2 
 cents for each 4 ounces, or fraction thereof, with a maximum weight 
 limit of ] 1 pounds immediately upon rural routes. 
 
 The Chairman. That is your unit and your smallest zone ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. Then let the weight limit of 11 pounds immediately 
 attach to transactions of business on rural routes; then a somewhat 
 higher rate for the shorter zone of, say, 50 miles lapping over and 
 covering rural routes as well — any post office on the rural route. 
 
 The Chairman. Within that 50 mile radius? 
 
 Mr. Williams. Within that 50-mile radius. 
 
 The Chairman. What rate would you make there ? What would 
 be you.r minimum ? You make 8 ounces your minimum in the other 
 case. 
 
 Mr. Williams. I should make the pound the unit there. 
 
 The Chairman. And your rate for your first pound? 
 
 Mr. Williams. Five cents, making 25 cents for an 11-pound pack- 
 age; but I would not go to that maximum upon that transportation 
 immediately. I should rather stop that at 7 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Why do you autocratically take 7 pounds as your 
 weight limit on the 50-mile radius ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. On account of the problems that will be presented 
 in the collection, distribution, and delivery of packages, and the tax 
 that it will be upon the postal facilities. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why not carry on the present facilities and not 
 deliver packages that are too heavy? That would eliminate the 
 delivery difficulty. 
 
 Mr. Williams. That eliminates the delivery difficulty, that is true. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And the collection difficulty also. 
 
 Mr. Williams. No; because you might drop a package in one of 
 these large boxes 
 
 Senator Bristow. Then it would not be taken up. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1063 
 
 Mr. Williams. That is simply a detail. As to the general parcel 
 post, my judgment is that it should not become effective beyond the 
 present weight limit until a period has elapsed, and then provide 
 in the law that in one year the weight limit goes to 7 pounds and 
 another year to 11 pounds, so as to take care of the details of handling 
 and the working out of the practical development of the system, 
 but cover the whole country. Reduce that rate to the rural route 
 and increase the weight limit upon the shorter hauls, because the 
 present weight limit very largely meets the actual needs of the people 
 of -the country so far as the use of the post office is concerned in the 
 real long distances, but raise that limit gradually as it may develop, 
 and during its development experiences in handling it will be the 
 better worked out. That is my personal viewpoint. 
 
 The Chairman. How do you arrive at those conclusions! 1 Are- 
 they based upon the experience of other nations, or are they based 
 upon the careful study ol any data that you may have and deductions 
 made from the same for these autocratic maximums differing on 
 different zones and the different periods of time for installation or 
 inauguration of your enlargement of your present parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. There are so many elements that have caused me 
 to reach those conclusions that I am scarcely able to enumerate them. 
 They came mainly from my study of the subject, from the investiga- 
 tions as to how closely and how fully our present mail facilities are 
 occupied with the transportation of the mail that we now carry, the 
 fact that the question of railway mail pay has not a very clear or 
 scientific basis, and there are so many problems that enter into it that 
 I would regard the suggestion that I have made as being the more 
 feasible and profitable to carry out, in that the beginning might be 
 promptly made rather than a complete realization. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you not think' that the fact that Germany, 
 with a much larger activity than that contemplated by any bill 
 introduced or by the concrete recommendation that you have made, 
 handling nearly 9,000,000,000 pieces of mail in a year, or rather for 
 the year 1908, and having parcels aggregating less than a quarter of a 
 billion in that neriod, or 2.7 per cent of the total number of pieces 
 of mail handled in that country in that year being parcels, and the 
 United States handling over thirteen and one-quarter billion pieces 
 of mail in the same year and handling a little less than 145,000,000 
 of fourth-class matter, or representing 1.1 per cent for the fourth- 
 class number of pieces of the aggregate number of pieces of mail 
 handled during that period, would justify the committee in coming 
 to the conclusion that the increase incident to enlargement of the 
 activity of our fourth-class mail provision would not result in an 
 increase in a year or so of more than double, or certainly not treble, 
 the volume of the present business ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. I think you are fully justified in that opinion and 
 I fully concur in the conclusion you have stated. 
 
 The Chairman. Then why the necessity of postponement of 
 operation ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. The suggestions that I made should have been or 
 I intended them to have been coupled with the idea that either a 
 complete monopolization of the business should be undertaken by 
 the Government or some such provision made in the law as suggested 
 a few minutes ago, because it is my firm conviction that parcel post 
 at any rate which has been suggested by any bill which has been 
 
1064 PARCEL POST. 
 
 brought to my attention now pending in either branch of Congress 
 which leaves express and rail competition open will not result in an 
 appreciable increase of business to the Post Office Department. You 
 will never know it except perhaps in some slight increase in revenue, 
 which will, in the main, be largely profitable. 
 
 The Chairman. And you leave the speed clutch in the hands of 
 the administrative branch of the Government always if you leave 
 to the administrative branch, the Post Office Department, the right 
 to determine whether the package goes to the addressee or he has, to 
 call for it. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Always. 
 
 The Chairman. And it is inconceivable to my mind from any 
 argument that has been advanced or in any thought that I have 
 
 fiven to it that there is a possibility of the Government being swamped 
 y increasing the weight limit from 4 to 11 pounds and very mate- 
 rially decreasing the price for the postage. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Unless the Government tells the express companies 
 to "keep off the grass," or enact some such provision as I spoke of 
 awhile ago. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why not let the express companies take it, if 
 they can serve the people better? 
 
 The Chairman. In ot'.cr words, would it not be better for the 
 Government if it had private competition ? 
 
 While there is no competition there is apt to exist a condition of 
 dry rot. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Undoubtedly that is the tendency. The reason, 
 in answer to Senator Bristow's question, wiry we could not let the 
 express companies take it, if they can serve the people better, is 
 that the express service does not reach more than a very small part 
 of the people of this country. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Then the Government would reach it, if it lias 
 a parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. Certainly, and for that reason a parcel post of 
 some character should be promptly established. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is what we are considering here, the estab- 
 lishment of it, but you suggested that we establish it exclusively 
 and toll the express companies to keep off the grass. And I say, 
 why should we tell them that ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. For the reason that unless you do all of the busi- 
 ness between the populous marts of commerce and trade the business 
 will be handled by the express companies, and you will be left to 
 do the beneficent act in the isolated regions of the country. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Tiiat is your suggestion. I would put in a 
 zone system to correct that. 
 
 Mr. Williams. I have serious doubts whether a zone system can 
 correct it, for the reason that express companies have facilities for 
 changing their rates every 30 days if they want to. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Let them change it. 
 
 Mr. Williams. The Government's rates can not be changed except 
 by action of Congress, which is a slow and very tedious procedure. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If the Government puts in a reasonable rate 
 based upon the service rendered, with its facilities and with its organi- 
 zation, a rate that pays it, and the express companies can handle the 
 business for these distances under this system with equal facility and 
 for less money, wo ought not to deprive the citizen of the opportunity 
 
PARCEL POST. 1065 
 
 of availing himself of this cheaper facility. That is my view of it. I 
 think the zone system by which the rates can be fixed is practicable. 
 
 The Chairman. But no zone system, Senator, would eliminate the 
 express companies. You would simply shorten the distance in miles 
 for a profitable haul. 
 
 Mr. Williams. That is all it would do. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It minimizes the advantage which they would 
 take. 
 
 Mr. Williams. And the problem is as to whether or not such 
 minimized advantage's or minimized competition is justified by what 
 may be found to be the trouble and expense of maintaining and 
 carrying out a parcel-post system based upon the zone basis. 
 
 Senator Bristow. My opinion is that it is no expense and no 
 trouble, and if it is not, why that would make it easy, would it not 1 
 
 Mr. Williams. It certainly would. 
 
 The Chairman. I think, Mr. Williams, you have presented an idea 
 here that is well worth most careful study and consideration in your 
 suggestion of this law. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I want to suggest this objection fundamentally 
 to his theory. In the transportation of merchandise I do not believe 
 it is equitable or just to fix a rate for 3,000 miles the same as it is for 
 300 miles or for 200 miles or for 100 miles. I think that is a funda- 
 mental objection to the theory that would be insurmountable as far 
 as I am concerned. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Theoretically you are undoubtedly correct, but in 
 my opinion the practical operation would be that only a small per- 
 centage of the business would ever travel' the maximum distance. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Well, of course, I differ with you there. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any further viewpoints, Mr. Williams, 
 that you wish to suggest to the committee ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. Yes; this one further suggestion: I regard the 
 question of making rates upon mail matter by classes of mail matter 
 as being an empirical one. There is no such thing in actuality as 
 Congress being able, or anyone being able, to make a rate and say 
 that that is the correct rate. Likewise, I do not think it is possible 
 for the Post Office Department, or any department of the Govern- 
 ment, to say that it costs thus and so much to handle any particular 
 class of mail matter; that the best we can do is to find what is a 
 fair rate for the handling of a certain class or certain kind of mail 
 matter, such that it will stand, such that was not confiscatory or 
 improper in any reasonable governmental sense, and that then the 
 Post Office Department should be so adjusted as to bring about the 
 ideal condition I quoted from President Adams, that its charge shall 
 be scarcely perceptible to any individual and without the cost of a 
 dollar from the Public Treasury. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You do not think it feasible to determine that 
 it costs so much to handle a letter or a package any more than the 
 railroad can determine that it costs so much to handle a hundred tons 
 or more from here to Baltimore ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. I entirely agree with you. The best you can do is 
 to make a fair guess at a proper rate and then if in the working out 
 of it it is found to produce any serious inequality or serious injury 
 to any particular group or class of citizens and that the revenue 
 equals or exceeds the expense of the establishment; in other words, 
 that the work is of such character that it is impossible to so segregate 
 
1066 PARCEL POST. 
 
 the expenses, administrative and otherwise, and properly charge 
 them to any particular class or group of matter. 
 
 The Chairman. You say "guess." I do not concur with you. 
 It is not necessary to make any .guess. We know that under the 
 present operation of fourth-class mail matter the Government, ac- 
 cording to its report, assuming that it is authoritative and sound, 
 handles fourth-class matter to-day at a little less than 12 cents a 
 pound. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is what Mr. Williamg challenges. 
 
 Mr. Williams. I do not mean a "guess." I mean the best con- 
 clusion that can be gathered from all the information that can be 
 submitted upon the subject. The Post Office Department is per- 
 haps reasonably close to the cost of the carriage of fourth-class 
 matter, counting what they do carry, but they might just as well 
 have more fourth-class matter to take up the waste space in cars and 
 on rural mail routes, which would materially decrease the average 
 cost per pound and at the same time add materially to the revenues 
 of the Government without any appreciable expense. 
 
 The Chairman. But to start with actual results. You have 
 certain limits in which you can apply that. You are absolutely 
 safe in any action taken up to those limits, below or above as the 
 case may be. It is simply a question then of applying the experi- 
 ence of other countries, taking into consideration the difference in 
 conditions and applying the doctrine of averages and using your 
 common sense. There is no guesswork. 
 
 Mr. Williams. You have admirably stated it, and when I said 
 guesswork that was how I meant it. I meant that you could not 
 reach an absolutely mathematical determination of it. 
 
 The Chairman. Neither can you in insurance or anything else. 
 You have to take the tables and work the matter out on the doc- 
 trine of averages. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Your own experience and the experience of other 
 countries. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I would question the absolute accuracy of any 
 segregation that has been made as to the cost of second, third, or first 
 class matter. I do not think it is possible to make an absolute deter- 
 mination as to the cost of any matter. I think it is an impossibility. 
 You can approximate. 
 
 The Chairman. Everything is approximated in any kind of busi- 
 ness that has large operations ; but the balance at the end of the year 
 shows all right. It is a matter of bookkeeping. 
 
 Mr. Williams. That is what I meant to imply — that it was not an 
 absolute result, but perhaps a fair approximation. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any further points, Mr. Williams ? 
 
 Mr. Williams. No ; I think not. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you, Mr. Williams. 
 
 Mr. Williams. Before going, Mr. Chairman, I would like to submit 
 a list of the leading contributions which I have made on this subject. 
 
 The list referred to by Mr. Williams is as follows : 
 
 The American Post Office. A discussion of the history, development, and present- 
 stay relation to express companies. (S. Doc. No. 542, 61st Cong., 2d sess.) 
 
 Rate Regulating Bodies and the Postal Service. (The American Law Review, 
 March-April, 1911.) 
 
 The Press and the Post Office. (The Fra— March, 1911.) 
 
 Hearings on Second-class Mail Matter. (House Committee on Expenditures in the 
 Post Office Department. Dec. 13. 1911.1 
 
TESTIMONY OF MR. C. W. SKINNER, OF WASHINGTON, D. C. 
 
 Mr. Skinner was first duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age, residence, and 
 occupation? 
 
 Mr. Skinner. I am 56 years of age and reside in Washington, D. C, 
 at 2525 Wisconsin Avenue. I am superintendent of Industrial Home 
 School. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you in favor of or opposed to increasing the 
 activity of our present parcel-post system as represented under the 
 fourth-class mail privilege? 
 
 Mr. Skinner. I am in favor of it. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly give the committee the benefit 
 of your reasons for favoring an increase ? 
 
 Mr. Skinner. The particular occupation in which we are engaged 
 is that of raising flowers. If these flowers which I have here could be 
 distributed among the different members of the committee so that 
 they can see them I think I can explain the reason through the han- 
 dling of these flowers . This is an example or illustration for the reason 
 for favoring parcel post. Now, these flowers are cut here in the 
 District of Columbia. They were taken this morning from the green- 
 houses, and if you will feel the bloom you will see that it is very much 
 firmer in its texture than that of a bloom that would have been cut 
 from a greenhouse that is located in Baltimore'. It should not be, 
 because the distance from Baltimore is very short; but we can not 
 transport by our present facilities flowers from Washington to Bal- 
 timore or from Baltimore to Washington in less than six to eight hours. 
 
 The Chairman. That is unless you send a special messenger with 
 them. 
 
 Mr. Skinner. Unless we send a special messenger with them; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean under the express facilities it takes you 
 from six to eight hours from the time you cut them to the time they 
 are delivered to the recipient ? 
 
 Mr. Skinner. From the time they are cut and delivered to the 
 recipient the texture is entirely changed of the bloom. Now, it 
 seems to me, that the parcel post would bring us into communica- 
 tion also with sections of our country that are particularly adapted to 
 the raising of flowers. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, would you expect to get a much quicker 
 service if you had a parcel post between the points you mentioned, 
 Washington and Baltimore ? Would you expect to cut your flowers 
 at your greenhouse and have them delivered to the recipient in Balti- 
 more in less than a period of six hours? 
 
 Mr. Skinner. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. How would you expect to get your flowers from 
 the greenhouse to the post office ? 
 
 Mr. Skinner. We should have to deliver them from the greenhouse 
 to the post office. 
 
 1067 
 
1068 PAECEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. It would take some time, would it not, for the 
 post office to send the package to the depot ? 
 
 Mr. Skinner. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the transportation from the depot here in 
 Washington to the depot in Baltimore. 
 
 Mr. Skinner. It would. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the delivery from the depot in Baltimore to 
 the post office in Baltimore and the routing of the package in Balti- 
 more to the recipient. I greatly doubt if you would be able to make 
 the transaction in any quicker time under any parcel-post system 
 than you now could in the six-hour period under the express operation. 
 I mean in the case you have mentioned. 
 
 Mr. Skinner. I was hoping that we might expand the express zone. 
 Our express zone is now limited so that it does no± include our district. 
 We have to deliver here to the Union Station. We are about 5 miles 
 away; 2525 Wisconsin Avenue is not included in the express delivery. 
 We have to deliver our flowers to the Union Station. 
 
 The Chairman. But you would expect the Government carrier to 
 call at your greenhouse and get the package and relieve you of that 
 5-mile private delivery that you make now yourself? 
 
 Mr. Skinner. If we could do that in that way that would be a great 
 assistance, but I am just carrying out the illustration of delivering it 
 in less than six hours. Now, it seems to me that if we delivered at the 
 Union Station — we can get those flowers and deliver them to the 
 Union Station in less than an hour — and we could cut and deliver to 
 the Post Office Department and the Post Office Department, it seems 
 to me, would handle the flowers more carefully and deliver with less 
 liability of loss. 
 
 The Chairman. It takes you an hour now to get your package to 
 the Union Station. 
 
 Mr. Skinner. Or to the post office, either one. 
 
 The Chairman. You confine that activity entirely to this one trans- 
 action. Under any arrangement of enlargement of the parcel post 
 there are a number of activities that the governmental representative 
 has got to transact. He might be two hours in covering the same 
 route that you now cover in one hour, having only the one activity. 
 
 Mr. Skinner. I suppose that is true. I also wanted to call atten- 
 tion to the advantages of floriculture in different localities. The prob- 
 ability is we shall move our own plant. We are on ground now that 
 is valued at $11,000 an acre, doing business as greenhouses for the 
 benefit of our children. We cultivate flowers. The possibility of 
 moving this business and then having an opportunity of shipping 
 flowers into Washington, it seems to me, would be very greatly im- 
 proved by the parcel post. In our flower stores in Washington you 
 will not find that the flowers will keep very long after they have been 
 purchased in the stores, whereas, if they could be transmitted directly 
 to the consumer or to the one who wishes to use those flowers it would 
 be very greatly to their advantage and that could only be done by a 
 parcel post. 
 
 The Chairman. Then your view and attitude with reference to 
 favoring an enlargement of the present activity of the parcel post is 
 that you would get better transportation, quicker transportation, and 
 presumably cheaper transportation ? 
 
PARCEL POST. 1069 
 
 Mr. Skinner. And that would be very much to the advantage of 
 the product. 
 
 The Chairman. That your consumers would get a much better 
 article and that the industry would be favored without detriment to 
 any other industry. You simply enlarge an opportunity that would 
 be equal to all. Are there any further matters, Mr. Skinner, that you 
 wish to bring to the attention of the committee ? 
 
 Mr. Skinner. No, sir. 
 
TESTIMONY OF MISS LEONORA O'REILLY, REPRESENTING THE 
 WOMEN'S TRADE UNION LEAGUE OF NEW YORK CITY. 
 
 Miss O'Reilly was first duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly tell the committee your age, resi- 
 dence, and present occupation? 
 
 Miss O'Reilly. I am 42 years old. My occupation is teacher and 
 lecturer of the Women's Trade Union League, and my home is in 
 Brooklyn, N. Y. 
 
 The Chairman. The Women's Trade Union League of New York 
 City? 
 
 Miss O'Reilly. The Women's Trade Union League of New York 
 City. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly explain "to the committee the 
 membership in numbers of the league and the activities of the league ; 
 that is, the purposes for which it is organized ? 
 
 Miss O'Reilly. It is an organization made up of women who believe 
 in trade unions and trade unionists for the purpose of getting the pub- 
 lic in general to understand that the trade union stands for the selling 
 of labor in the best possible market and to get for the labor as much as 
 is possible and to give in return as good quality as they can afford to 
 give for the prices they receive. That is the constitution by which we 
 work. It is the trade unionist women, who are in the majority, and 
 what we call allies, women who believe that labor itself must say what 
 it can live on, that have the controlling power in the organization. 
 Of course, we get into all sorts of quarrels and arbitrations and con- 
 ciliations and strikes. Of course, I have always felt that the post 
 office, like the public school and educational institutions, is a center 
 for the exchange of thought. During our great shirt-waist strike we 
 had a public sentiment started, feeling that the people who made 
 shirt waists should get their own prices for their work, and we had a 
 number of people who would be willing to back the enterprise to 
 start women working on something like a cooperative basis. Had we 
 then had an opportunity of getting the thing produced to the consumer 
 with as little possible expense as we could through this parcel post, 
 carrying 10 or 15 pounds, and even more, if we could get it a rate of 
 2 ounces for a cent, I think we might have started a cooperative 
 industry for working women that would have taught how the pro- 
 ducer and the consumer could get together for the benefit of the 
 whole community. 
 
 The Chairman. How large a membership has your organization? 
 
 Miss O'Reilly. Six hundred people; but that means an affiliated 
 membership of 50,000 working women, shirt-waist workers, shoe 
 workers, and so forth. 
 
 The Chairman. In New York City ? 
 
 Miss O'Reilly. In New York City itself; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. In the affiliated membership ? 
 
 Miss O'Reilly. Then, of course, we have the national organization, 
 with its center in Chicago. 
 
 1070 
 
PAECEL POST. 1071 
 
 The Chairman. The membership of the national organization — 
 hare you that ? 
 
 Miss O'Reilly. I really do not know. In some places in the West, 
 like Chicago, I think they have nearly 200,000 as an affiliated mem- 
 bership. 
 
 The Chairman. In your appearance before the committee to-day 
 you are appearing as representing your own views, or the views of 
 your affiliated members in New York City, consisting of some 50,000 ? 
 
 Miss O'Reilly. I should say not only that, but I am myself a 
 trade unionist and I am a member of the Central Federation of New 
 York City, and I represent what the men feel on this question. I am 
 sent here as their delegate; that is, I came here to speak to women, 
 who wanted to hear about our league, and I came here to-day because 
 I am interested in this parcel-post question. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you favor the committee with the views 
 of your organization relative to increasing the scope of the present 
 activity of our parcel post as represented under the fourth-class mail 
 privilege ? 
 
 Miss O'Reilly. So far as I understand it, and so far as they under- 
 stand it, it would be to get to people in the remotest districts with 
 the least possible expense the commodities that they want. My own 
 feeling is that it is only industries like express companies and, say, 
 small industries that are living a sort of parasitic life on the larger 
 industries, that are blocking the route of this parcel post which all 
 organized workingmen want and all organized working women want, 
 not only to carry our produce, like the flowers and our shirt waists 
 and similar things to the homes of the people, but also for carrying 
 our literature, because we are carrying on an educational movement 
 in the way of trade unions and labor magazines. To get this car- 
 ried as cheaply and as many as possible is what we want. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You have, as far as literature is concerned, a 
 very low rate, even now. 
 
 Miss O'Reilly. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. So that the additional advantage which the 
 parcel post would give would be the facility for sending out the 
 individual package from some home or little organization that might 
 want to seek a market ? 
 
 Miss O'Reilly. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. For a large industry could you not utilize the 
 express, after the order of the mail-order house, if you had the large 
 industry now ? 
 
 Miss O'Reilly. I suppose we could after we got started and were 
 going for a long time, but our large industry might be carried on with 
 just one shirt waist in a farming district. The great thing is opening 
 up to the wives of men off on very distant farms the opportunity of 
 getting what the mail can bring them. They can afford a post card, 
 and through a post card they can buy the thing they need, and we 
 can send it to them. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The mail-order business of the country has de- 
 veloped very extensively without the use of the mails by the use of 
 freight 'and the express. I car> see that the parcel post might afford 
 facilities for transporting a shirt waist; probably it affords that now, 
 but rather at an excessive rate, because it would not weigh to exceed 
 4 pounds packed, would it ? 
 
 Miss O'Reilly. No. 
 
1072 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Not probably more than 2| pounds ? 
 
 Miss O'Reilly. No; but when we speak of sriirt waists, in our 
 shirt-waist trade to-day it means the light dresses and things of that 
 nature. These one-piece dresses are now called the shirt-waist in- 
 dustry, and we do go up higher. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, would not the important part of such an 
 enterprise as you suggest be the rinding by the organization of a 
 system by which you could find a purchaser ? 
 
 Miss O'Reilly. And we could do that wifh the post card. You 
 send your post card and you get your other matter through that 
 order. The way in which I feel about the whole post office, and I 
 think the labor movement and the people who are in the labor move- 
 ment feel the same way, is that it is a department of the Government 
 which is to help the people to get the things they want as simply and 
 as easily as possible. We feel that the express companies simply 
 block that in that they make it as difficult as possible. 
 
 The Chairman. You would have a great deal more confidence in 
 the Governmental function than in a private corporation starting a 
 new business on a cooperative basis, would you not ? 
 
 Miss O'Reilly. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. The sentiment, then, is practically unanimous, as 
 far as you are aware, in labor circles in favoring an increase in our 
 present parcel post activities? 
 
 Miss O'Reilly. They have been working for it for years, and they 
 have been asking for it for years. That is the reason why in coming 
 here I knew that they would want me to say a word for it, because they 
 have had me say everywhere that I have spoken that labor is asking 
 for this service. Of course it is simply an extension of the greater 
 opportunity to the people. 
 
 The Chairman. In your own organization in New York and the 
 affiliated orders, has there been considerable discussion relative to this 
 particular subject — that is, the subject of the parcel post and its 
 extension ? Is it a very live issue ? 
 
 Miss O'Reilly. It is not a very live issue at the moment, because 
 we have been talking of it for 10 or 15 years. It has always been 
 talked of at our meetmgs. Last year we had discussions on the sub- 
 ject, and we sent representatives to meetings that were held hi 
 Cooper Union. Then we have sent out lecturers on the subject to the 
 affiliated organizations, like the bindery workers, etc. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any other views, Miss O'Reilly, that you 
 wish to present to the committee ? 
 
 Miss O'Reilly. I feel very strongly, of course, that this express 
 business should be done by the Government. And I should hke to 
 say that all workers ask that you do not investigate any more than 
 you have to. We are a little bit tired of commissions. We know 
 what we want; we want action, and not a commission to push it back 
 for three, four, or five rears more. That is also the sentiment of 
 workingmen. 
 
 In the fire disaster we had recently in New York City we had a com- 
 mission to find out how it was £hat the people were burned alive when 
 the doors were locked. People can not stand that sort of thing. 
 You are sitting on a safety valve, and it will go off. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you; Miss O'Reilly. • 
 
TESTIMONY OF MR. GEORGE M. WHITAKER, PRESIDENT OF 
 THE FARMERS' NATIONAL CONGRESS AND SECRETARY OF 
 THE NATIONAL DAIRY UNION, 1404 HARVARD STREET, 
 WASHINGTON, D. C. 
 
 Mr. Whitaker was first duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you please state your age, residence, and 
 present occupation, Mr. Whitaker ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. My age is 60; residence, District of Columbia; up 
 to the 1st of January last I was chief of the market milk section in 
 the Department of Agriculture; and I am just now taking up the 
 work of the National Dairy Union. 
 
 The Chairman. You say taking up the work; have you an official 
 position with the National Dairy Union ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. Yes, sir; secretary and executive officer. 
 
 The Chairman. And you appear before the committee in your 
 official capacity to present the views of the union as you understand, 
 as well as your own views ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. No, sir; I appear before the committee as the 
 president of the Farmers' National Congress. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly give the committee information 
 relative to the membership and scope of the activity of the organiza- 
 tion that you appear to represent ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. It is a delegate body, made up of delegates 
 appointed by the governors of the different States who meet once a 
 year in the different sections of the country to consider the problems 
 that are of interest to the farmers and to agriculture. Necessarily 
 and naturally, when we meet in a certain locality the attendance 
 from that locality is much larger than it is from more remote points, 
 and in the last few years we have met in Ohio, Nebraska, North Caro- 
 lina, Wisconsin, Oklahoma, Illinois, Virginia, Missouri, New York, 
 Georgia, South Dakota, Colorado, and Massachusetts. At all meet- 
 ings resolutions have been passed indorsing an enlargement of the 
 parcel-post system. 
 
 The Chairman. What has been the largest attendance, as far as 
 you know, at any of the meetings where these resolutions have been 
 indorsed or adopted ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. Well, the attendance at a single meeting is from 
 a thousand to 3,000. 
 
 The Chairman. Representing the whole country ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. Representing the whole country. 
 
 The Chairman. Delegates from all over the United States i 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. Yes, sir. I might add, as showing the extent and 
 perhaps the dignity and character of the organization, that it attracts 
 to its platform as speakers some of the best men we have in the 
 country. At the meeting in Ohio last October Gov. Harmon was on 
 the platform and gave us a reception at his residence. At the Madi- 
 son meeting President Taft spoke. At the Nebraska meeting, Mr. 
 
 1073 
 
1074 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Bryan; at the North Carolina meeting, Mr. Ambassador Bryce; at 
 the Oklahoma meeting, Senator Gore; at the Illinois meeting, Sena- 
 tor Cummins; and various governors and Kepresentatives. Mr. 
 Swanson appeared before us when we met in Richmond, Va. So 
 that it is an organization of considerable standing and influence, we 
 think. 
 
 The Chairman. We understand that. The only reason for these 
 questions is to get on the record as full information as possible rela- 
 tive to the momentum of the views; that is, the force behind the 
 views. 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. I might add that I represent, to a limited extent, 
 myself personally, because my official duties with the Government 
 required me to travel a great deal, to meet a great many people, 
 and to be at many agricultural meetings to keep track of the drift 
 of agricultural methods, and I have been a member of the Grange 
 for 25 years, so I feel possibly that I am something of an expert as 
 to what the farmers of the country want. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly favor the committee with the 
 benefit of your views and the views of the organization that you 
 state you represent here, specifying where you are submitting your 
 own personal views, otherwise the committee will infer that you 
 represent the views of these organizations, relative to an increase in 
 the activity of our present parcel-post system as represented under 
 the present fourth-class mail privilege ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. The impression that I get from my observations 
 from taking part in these meetings of the Farmers' National Con- 
 gress, in hearing the resolutions discussed, and I have been con- 
 nected with that congress for something like six or eight years, is 
 that the people that I represent indorse and emphasize what such 
 speakers as Mr. Hale, Prof. Henry, and Mr. Atkeson have said to you . 
 
 The Chairman. These gentlemen have appeared before the com- 
 mittee within the last few days. 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. Yes, sir. Those gentlemen have stated, according 
 to the best of their knowledge and belief, the exact sentiment of the 
 farmers, that this is the burning, live issue with them. In a pleasant 
 way I would say that Mr. Hull thought that reciprocity was more of a 
 burning idea than parcel post 
 
 The Chairman. He meant in the past. 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. Well, that may be; but from my standpoint of 
 looking at the situation, I think that the parcel post is the promi- 
 nent, preeminent leading issue before the farmers of the country to- 
 day, and that they are practically unanimous. I have never heard 
 of a farmer or anyone connected with agriculture who opposed the 
 parcel post. ' !■■ . 
 
 The Chairman. With your familiarity with the operation of that 
 class of our citizens, what would vou give as the number of farmers in 
 the United States ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. I have not the statistics at my tongue's end. The 
 Census, of course, would give it. ' 
 
 The Chairman. I thought possibly you might have it. 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. I might say that at a number of the places where 
 we'have met in the different States there were no Granges, so that any 
 statement I may make as to the wishes of the farmers is not wholly 
 
PARCEL POST. 1075 
 
 a duplication of the views of the same people that the members of the 
 Grange represent. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Have the farmers a national congress ; is that 
 the name ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Now, that is not the organization known as the 
 "Farmers' Union;" that is a separate organization? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. That is another organization. 
 
 The Chairman. But the Farmers' Lnion and the National Grange 
 are all, as far as you know, unanimously in favor of the enlargement 
 of the parcel-post activity, are they not, and look upon it as the prin- 
 cipal burning issue of the day ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly favor the committee with your 
 reasons for favoring that? What causes you- to come to your con- 
 clusions, as far as you know, Mr. Whitaker ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. The reasons, perhaps, might be stated in one sen- 
 tence by quoting from the resolution adopted two years ago : 
 
 Whereas this congress has repeatedly indorsed the principle of an enlarged and im- 
 proved parcels merchandise service in our postal department, and has specifically 
 taken from time to time such measures as have seemed to promise a forward step: 
 
 Resolved, That we renew our previous declarations, believing, first, that the prin- 
 ciple of carrying in the mails articles other than personal letters is too well an estab- 
 lished Government function to be weakened ; that therefore the only possible step is a 
 progressive one by increasing the weight limit and reducing the rate ; third, that as the 
 Government has recognized this principle in treaties with foreign nations we demand 
 at least a like treatment; and, fourth, we believe that such enlarged facilities for trans- 
 portation through the mail would be of immediate benefit to the people at large. 
 
 Of course, I can amplify that idea, but we believe that the freer 
 the interchange of commodities between man and man the better we 
 are, the more our civilization advances, and the more the prosperity 
 of the people generally advances. 
 
 The Chairman. That increased opportunity, provided it is free to 
 everybody, is beneficial to society and the Government? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. Yes, sir. Prof. Henry, I think it was, alluded to 
 the feeling of the farmers as almost one of irritation by reason of arti- 
 cles that they had seen in the agricultural papers and elsewhere calling 
 their attention to the unfavorable condition of things in this country. 
 The New York Tribune said : 
 
 The activities of the Christmas season once more brought into unpleasant relief the 
 deficiencies and unjust discrimination of the Government parcel-post service; the 
 arrangement by which postal authorities will carry to foreign countries packages 
 weighing as much as 11 pounds causes peevishness tod irritation even in the midst of 
 a season of universal cheer. The Christmas mail users have a right to feel that they 
 are being made sport of by the discrimination of the domestic parcel-post law. 
 
 The Chairman. That is in its relativeness to the scope of the In- 
 ternational Parcel Post ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you familiar with many of the, farm journals 
 and agricultural papers throughout the country ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. Superficially you might say I am familiar with 
 all of them, at least all the leading ones. 
 
 1 The Chairman. Have you any knowledge that any of the. agricul- 
 tural papers have received any money br 'compensation frorn.any of 
 the mail-order or catalogue houses, departmental stores, or railroads 
 
1076 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 to secure their support and advocacy of an enjoyment of our parcel- 
 post system ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. To the best of my knowledge and belief they have 
 not. I do not know of anything of that kind. Of course, when it 
 comes to the matter of the countingroom of the papers all over the 
 country I could not speak with any degree of accuracy. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not suppose anyone can, but the only way we 
 can get information is by asking questions and getting it from as 
 many sources as possible, and then arranging it before our committee. 
 You think that the support of the enlargement of our parcel-post sys- 
 tem is based entirely on deductions made by the individual members 
 of the various organizations, that it would be ah improvement to the 
 general welfare of the country and citizens as a whole ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. I am very certain of that. Heretofore the only 
 real objection to agriculture was the isolated life that the farmer had 
 to live. The telephone, the extension of the trolley system, and the 
 Kural Free Delivery system have done considerable to alleviate that 
 condition, and the parcel post now will be another step in that 
 same direction. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any other views, or is there any further 
 information, Mr. Whitaker, that you could favor the committee with, 
 bearing on the subject ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. There was one experience which I had which was 
 interesting and might help the committee some. The question has 
 sometimes been raised as to why it was that there was such a uni- 
 versal uprising, by a curious coincidence, all over the country among 
 the country storekeepers. I was coming from the West one time, and 
 while the porter was making up my berth I stepped across the aisle 
 into the section occupied by two gentlemen who continued their con- 
 versation in a way that led me to think they were talking nothing 
 private or confidential. 
 
 One of them, the principal speaker, was returning from a national 
 convention of some industrial phase of activity; he was a prominent 
 officer in it and a prominent manufacturer. He told the othe' 
 gentlemen that this parcel-post movement was one of the most 
 vicious ones that had ever been before the country; that if it ever 
 came into existence, the country storekeeper would be put out of 
 business; that everybody all over the country would immediately 
 buy all of their produce and all of their supplies from the department 
 stores or the mail-order houses; it would put the country stores out 
 of existence and there would be no more call for the traveling sales- 
 man to visit those country stores; that the country hotels were 
 largely supported by the traveling salesmen, and they too would 
 have to go out of business; that the country-store keeper and the 
 country-hotel keeper were practically the only men in the country 
 communities that had any money to support institutions, and with 
 those out of existence, the country church and the country schools 
 would go ; and finally the families, without any stores and without 
 any hotels and without any churches and without any schools, would 
 all be anxious to get away from the country ; and that every farmer 
 would be trying to sell his farm and there would be no purchasers, and 
 the conditions generally would be most deplorable. Now, that was a 
 bona fide conversation that I overheard, and this gentleman agreed 
 that for the salvation of the country it was necessary for them and 
 
PARCEL POST. , 1077 
 
 all men in their line of business to instruct all of their traveling 
 salesmen, whenever they went over the country anywhere, to any 
 country village, to arouse the country traders to the great cloud 
 that was hanging over the country by reason of the parcel-post 
 proposition. 
 
 The Chairman. Did he go on and explain how, after the country 
 had been depopulated and everybody had gone to the city, the peo- 
 ple there were going to live, what they would have to eat ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. No ; he did not go as far as that. 
 
 The Chairman. In your professional and personal work have you 
 been brought in contact with a great many of the country store- 
 keepers ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. Some of them; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you found that there was a universal 
 prejudice or fear against the enjoyment of the parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. There was somewhat of a universal fear, but when 
 you can sit down and talk with an individual personally and explain 
 the situation, and reason with him he admits that finally it is not quite 
 so terrible a thing as he thought it was. He generally agrees if he 
 keeps a clean stock and charges reasonable prices and is a good mixer 
 and popular with his constituents that he will be able to do his shop 
 business, being right on the spot with the goods that the people can 
 see and return if they do not like. 
 
 The Chairman. Returning a moment to the conversation which 
 you say you overheard on the train, did you learn afterwards who the 
 individual was who expressed such pessimistic views ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. I found out enough about him that a little research 
 will enable me to get the name of the gentleman. I know the trade 
 that he was connected with, I know his home city, I know he was a 
 very large manufacturer in that city, and with these clews I think that 
 I could get his name. 
 
 The Chairman. But you haven't the name, and to my mind it is 
 not important. Is there a growing irritation, or what you might call 
 "class feeling," between the agricultural portion of our citizens and 
 the retad-store keepers because of this issue, in your opinion ? 
 . Mr. Whitaker. Oh, I do not think it has gone so far as to be a class 
 feeling of irritation, between class and class. There is a general irri- 
 tation on the part of the agricultural people at the lack of facilities 
 that they have. They do not understand why they can not have 
 just as good facilities as the people of foreign countries. Two or three 
 weeks ago, perhaps less, the daily papers of the country published the 
 fact that the President had concluded a treaty with some place, a name 
 that I have never heard of before- — probably some minor place in 
 some faraway country— by which mail could be sent in 11 -pound 
 packages to that place. All those things are making the farmers 
 wonder more and more why they are not just as good as a person in 
 Australia or somewhere else, and why our country will not give its 
 citizens what it gives to the citizens of some foreign country. 
 
 The Chairman. Naturally, I think that would cause some irritation. 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. These paragraphs are appearing from time to time 
 and "with relative frequency. 
 
 The Chairman. Your organization, or the agricultural portions of 
 our citizenship, so far as you know, favor the creation of a commission 
 to study this question abroad and give it careful consideration, or do 
 
1078 . PARCEL POST. 
 
 they believe their Representatives in Congress are capable of doing 
 that work and should do it themselves ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. So far as I have heard anything said, there is a 
 feeling I have heard expressed, that there might be some indirect 
 issues, or issues involving some scientific problem that would require 
 an investigation, lasting through a great many months, and possibly 
 for years, that could be more profitably and better undertaken by a 
 commission, but the parcel-post business has been agitated so long 
 that the people feel that they know pretty much all about it now, 
 or at least that their Representatives in the Senate and House of 
 Representatives can be posted and there is no particular need of it. 
 Furthermore, they have a feeling that the talk for a commission comes 
 from the other side. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean by "the other side," the opponents of 
 a parcel post? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. Yes, sir. It looks to us as if the opponents of a 
 parcel post feel that it is in the air and it is coming, and perhaps the 
 best thing they can do to head it off is to get a delay through a com- 
 mission. Here is a paragraph that would rather confirm that, a report 
 of a meeting of the Boston Retail Grocers' Association, which says 
 they unanimously voted to indorse the action of the National Asso- 
 ciation of Retail Grocers, in sending a letter to President Taft asking 
 that he withold his indorsement of the parcel post, and that a com- 
 mission be appointed to look into its feasibility. 
 
 • Senator Bristow. Do you feel that there is any necessity for any 
 system of experimentation in regard to this subject in our own country 
 here 1 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. No, sir; I do not. We have got quite a large 
 parcel post now in our third and fourth-class mail matter; it is 
 working very satisfactorily, except as to limitations in the price and 
 weight. The principle thing we are asking for is a development of 
 what we already have, rather than to go into a new and untried field. 
 Some features of it may be experimental; but as a general propo- 
 sition we are asking for nothing new. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any other views or any further informa- 
 tion that would be of value and interest to the committee relative to 
 the subject ? 
 
 Mr. Whitaker. No, sir; I do not think I should take up the time 
 of the committee any further. Of course, there are the general argu- 
 ments that a good many other speakers have brought up and if I 
 made a long argument it would simply be cumulative and I do not 
 think you would care for anything of that kind. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you, Mr. Whitaker. 
 
TESTIMONY OF ME. W. A. HENRY/WHO WAS RECALLED BEFORE 
 
 THE COMMITTEE. 
 
 (See pages 969, 970, and 940-960 for previous testimony.) 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Henry, I will swear you again. 
 
 Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there still some further views or further infor- 
 mation that you would like to submit to the committee ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Three or four points, if the committee will bear with 
 me. At our agricultural college in Wisconsin we have between 100 
 and 150 weekly papers, agricultural papers, on our reading-room 
 tables. I often study them, their trend, their breadth, etc., and I 
 wish to say that the subject of parcel post appears in practically all 
 of them. Some of them have articles on the parcel post every week. 
 A large percentage of those articles originate from letters written by 
 farmers to the editors, and they are published as signed communica- 
 tions. One can see from their nature, their verbiage and all, that 
 they originate from farmers, and their purpose is all in one direction 
 of feeling that a parcel post should be theirs. It is impossible that 
 the editors could have worked that up from the outside, owing to the 
 patronage or pay, such as the chairman has suggested, regarding mail- 
 order houses, and so on, influencing the agricultural papers. 
 ' The Chairman. Because of evidence submitted before the com- 
 mittee ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not want it understood the chairman has any 
 such impression in his own mind. 
 
 , Mr. Henry. . The subject is one of the liveliest in our agricultural 
 papers, especially since the editors have published them as news 
 items, and have found out that some person is studying the sub- 
 ject — there are a number of farmers studying it carefully. Mr 
 Cowles was the pioneer, but there are others breaking into the field 
 and giving more or less time and energy to it. Now, when the far- 
 mers hear through their papers that the Post Office Department, 
 through the President and the Postmaster General, are making 
 treaties by which foreign countries have better rates than the farmers 
 and citizens of our country generally in their own domestic relations, 
 there is that feeling of irritation, and they wonder why the President 
 and the Postmaster General forget them in order to help the for- 
 eigners. Then when they read that the express company "will carry 
 packages for 2 or 3 cents a pound, picked up in New York, to any 
 place in the United States, the same having come to New York 
 through the parcel post of Great Britain, they wonder at that, and 
 it simply adds fuel to the fire. In regard to investigating commis- 
 sions, I beg of you gentlemen to head that thing off, if you can. If 
 you want to throw this thing out and say you do not believe it is 
 right, or if you give any other reason, we will suspect you somewhat, 
 but if the evidence before you leads you to reach the conclusion that 
 you must have a commission appointed to go over the whole thing 
 
 1079 
 
1080 . PABOEL POST. 
 
 more thoroughly, we will be heartbroken, and we won't know what 
 to do, because we have faith in you, and if it is thrown out that way, 
 we hope you will understand us. We hope you will give us good 
 evidence for your reasons if you must have a commission for further 
 investigation of the subject you are now looking into. 
 
 The Chairman. Is not the fact of these hearings a complete refu- 
 tation, so far as this committee is concerned, of any belief that there 
 is a necessity for the creation of a commission, and isn't this view- 
 point to be considered : The call for a commission is really a reflection 
 upon the ability or the integrity of the legislative branch of your 
 Government, and the committee is now trying to get the information 
 and to come to the conclusion as to what is desirable and practicable 
 and feasible ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Mr. Chairman, you, have practically given your own 
 answer. I have talked with a number who have been before you 
 and we are more than pleased with the reception and w.e are strikingly 
 impressed with . the fairness of the investigation and hope you will 
 keep on and make it full, if you can have the bodily strength and 
 patience to keep on with this and hear all the objections, as we want 
 you to hear them all and don't want you to hurt anybody. If you 
 can not do any better, please see that you treat us as well as 
 you do the people of Great Britain, the people of Africa, the people 
 of Madagascar, and the people of Sakhalin. To-day I can send a 
 package to the island of Sakhalin, off the coast of Siberia, for less 
 than I can send that same package from Wallingford, Conn., to New 
 Haven. Why? You talk about distance increasing cost. Why? 
 Can you carry it cheaper from New York to Sakhalin, to the interior 
 of Australia, and to Africa than you can from Wallingford to New 
 Haven? We can not understand it, and we can not understand 
 what our President and our Postmaster General are thinking of. 
 We believe your committee will take the means which will stop this 
 and stop the whole irritation. One other point, and that is regard- 
 ing 1-cent postage. We see that the Postmaster General has on 
 various occasions in communications and in interviews, and I guess 
 in speeches, indicated that we might have a 1-cent postage rate on 
 sealed letters. We wish to say that the farmers are not asking for 
 that, nor do we believe the common people, the working people, or 
 the middle class are asking for 1-cent postage. On our farm our 
 letter postage amounts to approximately $100 a year, because we 
 carry on an extensive correspondence in different ways. 
 
 The Chairman. On your own farm ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. On our own farm. We have just ordered $40 worth 
 of stamped envelopes and I do not think they will last six months. I 
 am telling you what we feel, for I come right from the people. We 
 feel that this 1-cent postage business is a back-fire on the parcel post. 
 Now, that is plain, gentlemen, and we know if you are going to cut the 
 letter revenue in two, you are going to bring an enormous deficit for 
 the present, and we know it will favor the large corporations, includ- 
 ing the banks and the city merchants, and we know that they won't 
 give us the benefit of that 1 cont saved on the letter postage, so it will 
 inure to their own benefit. I do not blame the banks or the large 
 corporations for trying to get 1-cent postage, but we would feel very 
 badly if you would give them that and did not give us the parcel 
 post. May I illustrate one case which I think will show the merchant 
 
PARCEL. POST. 1081 
 
 is alive to his opportunity. Last winter our head professor of mathe- 
 matics in the University of Wisconsin came and sat down beside me 
 said: "You are so interested in the parcel post, let me tell you some- 
 thing that may help you." He told me that he, with his family, 
 spent a year in Germany and had apartments in Munich. One day his 
 wife wanted a tablecloth, so she went to the store, looked over the 
 samples, decided on a Saxony linen tablecloth; they showed her 
 several and a number of samples in full tablecloths, and finally she 
 decided on a certain weave, a certain figure, etc. She said to the 
 German merchant : ""You may give me a tablecloth so many inches 
 long and so many inches wide." He said ' ' Very well, madam, where are 
 your apartments"? She said, "Oh, I will take it with me." "But," 
 said he, "we haven't that size tablecloth; as you see, we only carry a 
 few samples." "Well, then," she said, "I am very sorry, but I, was 
 in hopes I could get one here." He said, "Just give us your apart- 
 ment, and it will be there to-morrow." So she did, and at 11 o'clock 
 the next day the postman delivered the tablecloth at her apartment. 
 The professor said that the local merchant, even in so large a place 
 as Munich, didn't carry all the tablecloths that could possibly be 
 called for in size. They had a few full sized and then they had the 
 samples, and his wife was unable to get what she wanted in the way 
 of size. 
 
 The express company could have shipped that package, but in 
 Germany they could send it by the parcel post. That illustrates 
 what a country merchant and a concern in a small town could do. 
 They could have their samples and books of samples and then they 
 could telephone, telegraph, or write a letter and nave the particular 
 thing selected by his customer. Our hardware merchant in Walling- 
 ford, a place of about 8,000, tells us that he will duplicate any mail- 
 order house on any hardware we want if we will let him know what 
 we want, and we do practically no business through the mail-order 
 houses, our hardware merchant being entirely satisfactory. If you 
 gentlemen start from here on a car for your place of residence and 
 there is a five-minute interruption by the car being off the track, or 
 by the current being shut o.r, you are irritated, or if you are on a 
 railroad train going to Baltimore and there is an interruption and 
 you have to get out and walk up and down the right of way waiting 
 for half an hour or so, your plans are all broken up. If a person 
 would say to you you have only lost five minutes, what are you fretting 
 about, or you lost an hour on your railroad train, what are you 
 fretting about, what would you say to them ? You want what you 
 are used to, and what you would expect is freedom of transportation. 
 I have possibly coined the phrase fluidity of transportation," and 
 we are hunting and moving in every direction for it, even traversing 
 the air. We have the electric telegraph, telephone, the steam road, 
 and the electric road,- vehicles drawn by animals, and a large part of 
 our human effort is in moving objects from one to another. Now, 
 the minute you clog or prevent the freest "fluidity" you are going 
 contrary to the laws of human desire. 
 
 The Chairman. Returning to your question of 1-cent postage for 
 first-class mail matter, have you any idea as to the letters that the 
 individual probably sends each year? 
 
 Mr. Henry. No; I could not give you any figures. Take a man for 
 instance like Mr. J. H. Hale, who testified here; he ships 112 cars of 
 
 21845— vol 4—12 14 
 
1082 PARCEL POST. 
 
 peaches from his home city in New Hampshire. His postage is very 
 heavy; he has a clerk and a bookkeeper. At our farm I told you I 
 thought our postage was between $80 and $100 for letter postage. 
 We have a neighbor living near us and I suppose his postage bill will 
 only amount to a dollar a year at the outside. We have another 
 neighbor and I do not believe his postage bill for that matter is over 
 50 cents a year. Now, those are extremes. I am speaking of the. 
 farmers generally. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you believe that the majority of our citizens 
 send 25 letters a year ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Per family or per unit of the citizens ? 
 
 The Chairman. Per unit. 
 
 Mr. Henry. Meaning all the members of the family ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Henry. That would be too high for the farmers. I should say 
 a dollar a year, some place between a dollar and a dollar and a half. 
 What a farmer in Texas does as compared with the farmer in Kansas 
 or in Connecticut might differ very materially. 
 
 The Chairman. You can work it out on two or three bases, by 
 which, per individual unit in your population, the mail activity is 
 between 50 and 160 per individual per annum; it varies according to 
 the method you work out. I simply wanted to get the idea, based 
 upon your experience, because I have often thought, in the question 
 of the study, as to what the probable number of letters by firsl^class 
 mail would be that were sent by the average of our citizens. I doubt 
 if they send 25 in a year. 
 
 Mr. Henry. I think that is high for the individual; the aggregate 
 number — 25 for each member of the farmer's family — is, I think, high 
 for the whole countiy. Mind you, I am not opposed to 1-cent postage 
 if the wisdom of Congress is in that direction, provided you will set us 
 right on the parcel post first, but we claim precedence. We want 
 you to settle this question first. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you think there is any occasion for any 
 experimenting with a parcel post on the rural routes, or as a general 
 parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Henry. I rather think not. I think that if you would make 
 the rates the same as they are in the O'Gorman bill, with such modi- 
 fications as this investigation will lead you to, then it seems to me you 
 will be able to recommend an immediate parcel post according to the 
 investigations, for the whole country, and if possible, give us that. If 
 you feel you must experiment in two or three counties or a State, or a 
 portion of one or more States in different parts of the Union, we would 
 stand that. I want you to know we have a lot of faith in you, and 
 after the way you have been handling things here, if you do not give 
 it to us, we will be all upset. But for my part, I won't lose faith in 
 you, but I will come back and ask you to reverse your decision next 
 year if you do not give it to us now. 
 
 The Chairman. But, as a common-sense deduction, does it not 
 appeal to your mind that the only feasible, practical experimentation 
 that can be made is general adoption of what, in the opinion of the 
 committee and of Congress, is a safe line for initiation? 
 
 Mr. Henry. Yes, sir; that is all we ask. We are led up to that 
 by the fact that every now and then we read that our Post Office 
 Department is giving other people lower rates without even a trial, 
 
PARCEL POST. 1083 
 
 or even coming to Congress and asking the wisdom of Congress, and 
 if they can do that, and carry for the people in great Britain, and 
 offer to deliver goods any place in the United States in competition 
 with our own poultry men through the combination of the British 
 Government and the express companies, why oan't you give us at 
 least equal rates then ? If a Member of Congress can double the cost 
 of the fourth-class mail matter, as was read here yesterday by Mr. 
 Williams, which I think was one of the most startling things that 
 you have ever heard, if he can double it, making it 16 cents instead 
 of 8 cents, with every Member of Congress voting for it, hardly 
 knowing what they were voting for, can not you, out of this study, 
 give us something better than we have already ? If they doubled the 
 rates in 1879, why can't you in this year of grace put them back to 
 where they were then? Surely there is something rational in that. 
 I thank you. 
 The Chairman. We thank you very much, Mr. Henry. 
 
 (Thereupon, at 1.10 o'clock p. m.,the committee adjourned to meet 
 at the call of the chairman.) 
 
TUESDAY, JANUARY 16, 1912. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman). 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. CHARLES S. HERNIY. 
 
 The Chairman. It will be necessary that you be sworn, Mr. Hernly. 
 
 The witness was thereupon duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age, residence, and 
 occupation ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. My name is Charles S. Hernly.' I live at Newcastle, 
 Henry County, Indiana. My occupation is that of an attorney at 
 law. 
 
 The Chairman. In your appearance before the committee to-day, 
 Mr. Hernly, do you appear in your own individual capacity, or in a 
 representative capacity for any organization or association ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Purely personally. I represent no corporation, or- 
 ganization, or any individual. I do a large industrial business in 
 the name of Charles S. Hernly Co., but that is merely my own self 
 without any corporation about it. The name is simply to separate it 
 from my law business. I have an office in Indianapolis and one in 
 Newcastle, where my home is. 
 
 The Chairman. In your appearance here as an attorney, are you 
 here professionally to represent any particular interests ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. None whatever. I never had any salary from a 
 corporation in my fife. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you in favor of, or opposed to increasing the 
 activity of our present parcel post, as embodied under the fourth- 
 class mail privilege? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. I have been very actively against it. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly give the committee the benefit of 
 your reasons why you are opposed to it ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Senator, as I have stated, I have been instrumental 
 and largely interested in the growth and development of Indiana, and 
 especiaUy in the interest and development of my home community. 
 I have worked at it for 25 years on lines peculiarly thought out by 
 myself, that have been most successful in the development of that 
 section of the State. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you specify the line in order that we may 
 get the benefit of it ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. The building of interurban railways and factories of 
 various kinds, manufacturing industries, and seeking to bring from 
 the eastern States branch lines of manufacturing and establishing 
 them in the cities and towns throughout Indiana, picking out a par- 
 ticular industry that would be particularly fitted to a particular 
 locality. There is a scientific side to the industrial world. All indus- 
 tries are not suited to a particular locality or a particular condition. 
 
 The Chairman. Certainly not. 
 1084 
 
PARCEL POST. 1085 
 
 ■ Mr. Hernly. Now, I am speaking of this little town of mine, 
 Newcastle. • 
 
 The Chairman. What is the population of Newcastle ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Possibly the floating population and the real popula- 
 tion fifteen to twenty thousand. In 1910 it had a population of 
 3,406 people. I was born and reared in that county and town and 
 have lived there and practiced law. In the industrial development 
 of this home town and county of mine, I started in with this idea 
 
 The Chairman. That is, you started in in 1910? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. No. I started in in 1902, about 10 years ago. 
 
 The Chairman. The population then being what ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Three thousand four hundred and six. 
 
 The Chairman. I thought you said there were 3,406 in 1910 ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. No. If I said 1910 I should have said 1900. In 
 1902 the town had not grown any. Indiana began its industrial 
 development with the natural-gas discovery in the counties of 
 Howard, Delaware, and Grant, and around Anderson, Kokomo, 
 Muncie, and Marion, and so on. 
 
 We had a great deal of that cheap fuel and it was extravagantly 
 used and wasted, and it lasted about 10 or 15 years. Then we had 
 on hand in those communities a great many large factory buildings 
 that were lying idle when this cheap fuel gave out, and. we began 
 searching around to get other industries into these plants in order 
 to develop this community. In that maneuvering I took up the 
 development of my home town, which had not been blessed with as 
 much gas as the other communities and had not grown or boomed 
 along with them. I organized the industrial company in Newcastle 
 with a capital stock of $100,000, and we paid in $25,000 in cash and 
 bought 1,200 acres of farm land a mile and a half from the center of 
 the town and laid off" 600 town lots, 40 by 140 feet, which we sold to 
 the people. 
 
 The Chairman. That is not unique in your town, is it ? That is a 
 condition pretty general all over the country. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. I am getting at the unique part of it. They have 
 tried it in a good many places, but it has not worked successfully. 
 In the sale of these lots, we sold two of them to a widowed German 
 woman for $900, and she built a store across the street from where 
 they started to build the piano factory which we had contracted to 
 locate in the town. 
 
 The Chairman. Were there not any stores in the town in 1900 ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. There were in town a mile and a half from there, 
 but none out there. This German woman built her home and brought 
 her six children there and put them to work. Now, if we had taken 
 a cartload of catalogues of Sears, Eoebuck & Co. or Montgomery 
 Ward & Co. and put them out there in that field, where we started 
 to build this town, we could not have done any good with them at 
 all, nor could we have helped this German woman who started in 
 to help develop this property. We did not take on any of that 
 idea. We took on these human beings and these workers and we 
 built the factory. 
 
 The Chairman. She did not build the factory ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. No, sir. The French Piano Co. built the factory. 
 This German woman was there with the goods, and she built the 
 hotel, the boarding house, and restaurant. She furnished us some- 
 
1086 PARCEL POST. 
 
 thing. She was a live wide-awake citizen, and without her probably 
 we could not have gotten toy outside forces to have helped us. 
 
 The Chairman. Was it the building of that store by the German 
 woman, or the building of the piano factory, that brought the popula- 
 tion and enabled you to sell lots to. them ? 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. Both. They were an integral part of each other. 
 
 The Chairman. Which to the greater extent ? 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. In proportion to the business. 
 
 The Chairman. Where was the sale of your lots made? 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. In the community where the factory was built. 
 
 The Chairman. Where were your purchasers from, Newcastle, or 
 outside ? 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. Both. 
 
 The Chairman. From where principally ? 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. Principally from Newcastle. 
 
 The Chairman. Did you advertise ? 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. Sure. 
 
 The Chairman. Did you state as one of the inducements, the con- 
 struction of the piano factory, or did you state the erection of the 
 country store by the German woman ? 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. We said we wanted the country store to come in. 
 We did not advertise for mail-order housas. 
 
 The Chairman. But you did advertise the construction of the 
 piano factory? 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. Sure. We wanted people to come in and build 
 stores, .shops, and to participate in the general welfare and buy 
 these lots and add value to them. That is what we did. We sold 
 about 600 of those lots at that time. Then Ave built a large furniture 
 factory that made kitchen cabinets. We took all of this company's 
 stock, $75,000, as an inducement; we gave them no bonus, except 
 10 acres of land. 
 
 The Chairman. That was quite a bonus on the valuation on which 
 you were selling the lots? 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. Well, six lots to the acre, at $300 apiece; that was 
 18 lots, and the land cost us $150 an acre; it was farm land when we 
 bought it. 
 
 The Chairman. That was quite a bonus, $18,000, which you gave 
 them. You capitalized your imagination and business acumen ? 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. We just put out the cold facts. We did not keep 
 anything from anybody. We were thrifty. The point I am making 
 is this: That you could not have done that thing at all if a parcel 
 post was in existence, or with the Government ownership of the 
 railroads or the telegraph or the telephone. 
 
 The Chairman. We are not considering Government ownership at 
 all. Just confine yourself, if you will, to the subject of the parcel post. 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. I am just going to get this in here, because this is 
 the entering wedge to Government ownership of everything. 
 
 The Chairman. That is your own personal opinion ? 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. That is just like every other man in the world, 
 because I only have one head which God Almighty gave me. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes, but some people have a good deal more 
 egotism than others. 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. I have never been accused of egotism. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1087 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I am not accusing you of egotism. Will 
 you kindly go on ? 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. Now, here is this entire eastern country full of 
 industry. Here is the manufacturing zone of the United States, 
 which covers a very little area of the whole country. You commence 
 in St. Louis, where there is little manufacturing done at all and very 
 little in the towns in Illinois until you get to Chicago, and then it is 
 dense. 
 
 The Chairman. Principally due to transportation facilities ? 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You do not think transportation has any bearing 
 on the centralization of population ? 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. Transportation has, but not so much as the ten- 
 dency to segregate in large centers, with the advantages that come 
 to business naturally through the labor markets. You always have 
 to go into the cities to hunt laborers to bring them out to the small 
 towns in order to develop the towns. 
 
 The Chairman. How do you get them out ? 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. We went to Boston and hired them for less wages, 
 and we manufactured 20 per cent cheaper. The piano company of 
 Newcastle went to Boston and hired men, and I remember particu- 
 larly one man we hired in Boston whom. we found in the seventh 
 story of a very poor tenement with a wife and six little children. 
 This was in June and we took him out to our town, put him on one 
 of those 40-foot lots, and he has made $6,000 in an investment in real 
 estate. 
 
 The Chairman. Outside of his own wages ? 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. Outside of his own wages. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you hold out an opportunity to them ? 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. Why not opportunity ? Is it not better for the labor- 
 ing man to live in a little house out in the country ? 
 
 The Chairman. I do not think we can get any discussion on that 
 point. 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. Sure; but I make that point to show you the tend- 
 ency ought to be back to nature, and we have been aiming to get these 
 men and their families back to the ground and into these homes. We 
 built them little homes and provided them with baths and toilets, and 
 we take one of these little houses and sell it to the laboring man on 
 a rental basis. 
 
 The Chairman. On the installment plan ? 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. On the installment plan, and he owns it. We have 
 been able to build up this industrial community along that line. 
 
 The Chairman. But you could not have done it if the German 
 woman had not come there and established her store 1 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. She was absolutely just as necessary as it would be 
 for the Government to pick up a man's property in Maine and haul 
 it to Los Angeles for a flat rate which amounted to almost nothing. 
 That is the point I make. How much more necessary was it for that 
 German woman to be in that community than the Government 
 to subsidize any citizen against any other citizen. The German 
 woman was not subsidized at all. 
 
 The Chairman. I would like to ask you some questions and I would 
 like to have you answer them. How do you subsidize any citizen 
 when you give equal opportunity to every citizen ? 
 
1088 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Well, I do not see how you can do that, Senator, when 
 you propose to make a flat rate to haul a package 5 miles for one man 
 and another package 2,000 miles for the same rate. 
 
 The Chairman. It is the same opportunity to eA^ery individual in 
 the United States « 
 
 Mr. Hernly. No. 
 
 The Chairman. Why not? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Because they do not all live in the same place. 
 
 The Chairman. But they get the same privilege. The man in San 
 Francisco gets the same privilege of shipping to New York as the man 
 in New York has for shipping to San Francisco. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Yes, but it is wonderfully against the fellow who lives 
 only 5 miles from either place. He is the man who has to bear the 
 burden. It is not right to ship a package weighing 20 pounds or 50 
 pounds 5 miles for one fellow and ship a package for some other man 
 2,000 miles for the same price and have a square deal between man 
 and man. Somebody, somewhere, somehow, has to get some money 
 to pay the deficiency, or the amount that is lost on carrying a package 
 2,000 miles. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose there is no deficiency? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. There is bound to be a deficiency on that particular 
 package. 
 
 The Chairman. But everything is run on the doctrine of averages ? 
 All business is conducted on the doctrine of averages, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. On the table of averages you get the general result 
 and the general deductions, but then you can not say that that is abso- 
 lutely a square deal. If it is, what is the use of having my money to 
 average up a transaction of yours ? You might just as well say that 
 the bank that has been prosperous should go out and pay the defi- 
 ciency and pay the depositors of the bank that has been badly man- 
 aged. 
 
 The Chairman. They are not analogous cases at all. There are 
 90,000,000 people in this country, and what we have to do is to give 
 an equal opportunity to all of the people. All society is based upon 
 that theory, the general welfare of the whole, the greatest good to the 
 greatest number. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. I am not a subscriber to that doctrine exactly. The 
 greatest good to everybody is the better doctrine to my mmd, but 
 we accept your conclusion of it that it is the best we can do under 
 existing circumstances. You seem to be somewhat at a loss on fhe 
 proposition of the woman who built the little store. She is not the 
 only person who built a store, for they built a great many stores there. 
 They also organized a merchants' association; they helped to improve 
 the community; they built schoolhouses; they gave employment to 
 labor, and the laboring man is the distributor of money; they in- 
 creased the value of the farms, and I can go into any town in Kansas, 
 Iowa, or any of those western States under like conditions, relying 
 simply and wholly on the organization of the community of people, 
 and grow them and develop them and get some of those manufactur- 
 ing establishments there. There are nearly 4,000 articles manufac- 
 tured in Pennsylvania, the like of which have never been made any 
 where west of the Allegheny Mountains. 
 
 The Chairman. The reason being what? 
 
parcel post. 1089 
 
 Mr. Hernly. The reason being the star of commercialism follows 
 the star of emigration very slowly; it has to be coaxed along. You 
 have to create the conditions in the West in order to get the factories 
 there. 
 
 The Chairman. That depends on the personal equation. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. That depends on the resources of the community 
 where the citizen lives. 
 
 The Chairman. That is true everywhere the world over? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Everywhere the world over. There is as much car- 
 pet manufactured in Philadelphia as there is in all Europe, and there 
 is not any carpet manufactured as far west as Indiana, or even in 
 Ohio. The question is: How are we going to get these manufacturing 
 concerns out there? Take linoleum, laces, trimming, and most of 
 the clothing, garments, and all things that enter in so largely to our 
 uses. If you allow a condition to grow up here by Government 
 ownership and distribution, there is no use for these articles. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee has under consideration nothing 
 pertaining to Government ownership at all. All we have under con- 
 sideration is our ability to work out an enlargement of the parcel-post 
 system as now represented under the fourth-class mail privilege, which 
 in our judgment is desirable and practicable, and then submit it to 
 Congress. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. How many pounds to be the limit do you propose ? 
 
 The Chairman. Eleven pounds, increasing the weight of our fourth- 
 class mail matter from 4 to 11 pounds. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. How did it happen to get fixed at 11 pounds ? Who 
 had the genius to fix that amount as 1 1 pounds ? Why not make it 
 11$ or 12 pounds? 
 
 The Chairman. Because that was the rate under the International 
 Parcel Post Convention. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Is it taken from some little Government, some foreign 
 nation ? 
 
 The Chairman. No; it is what we are doing with other countries, 
 £i large number of other countries. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Eleven pounds is the limit. I never could see the 
 difference or principle between ownership and carrying 11 pounds at 
 a fixed price. 
 
 The Chairman. What is your line of demarcation between the 
 present law of 4 pounds limit ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Admitting that it is right, or that it affords any relief, 
 or is a square deal in any way 
 
 The Chairman. Your position is that you are opposed to the pres- 
 ent fourth-class mail privilege ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. I am not stating that. I do not know about that. 
 I doubt whether I could sit down and study out a just regulation, but 
 I am not admitting that it is right because it is the law. . That is 
 where I put myself on that question. I have always had some notoin 
 about just how far one man could legislate for another citizen, both 
 with equal ability. I have always put myself in the line where I 
 did not need very much legislation for the government of my mind. 
 I have tried to be a good citizen. Of course, because a man is a 
 Member of Congress, or a member of the legislature, or a member of 
 the town council, or anything else, he has an authority to pass laws. 
 
1090 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. That is supposed to be the function under our 
 form of Government. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. That is supposed to be the function. I noticed in 
 the newspapers recently that the Postmaster General is proposing to 
 buy out — this department that you represent here — the telephone 
 and the telegraph companies. 
 
 The Chairman. You have no right to make the assertion that this 
 department is proposing to do any such thing. You are quoting a 
 statement which has been credited to the Postmaster General, pro- 
 vided the newspapers are correct. However, that matter is not 
 before us at all. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Well, one is chasing very closely upon the heels of 
 the other, so closely that the common layman can hardly discrim- 
 inate where one begins and the other leaves off. I can not draw the 
 distinction between Government distribution of freight or express 
 and Government distribution of messages by wire. I think the 
 whole tendency is to that socialistic, populistic doctrine of Govern- 
 ment ownership, which means, eventually, in a tremendous country 
 like this, the absolute destruction -of our form of Government. 
 
 The Chairman. In your opinion it means dissolution or revolution ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. The socialistic tendency, starting in Germany or 
 any other country, goes right along. If I were an advocate of Gov- 
 ernment ownership, I would start out on a morning like this and 
 take over the coal mines and furnish the people with plenty of fuel as 
 quickly as possible. 
 
 The Chairman. Let's get back to the subject of the parcel post. 
 I think you have already stated several times in your opinion the 
 extension of the parcel-post service, now represented under the fourth- 
 class mail privilege, would lead ultimately to Government ownership 
 of transportation m this country ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. I think it is the entering wedge to Government own- 
 ership the parcel post as proposed by these gentlemen and as proposed 
 in the bill introduced. In the factor of the industrial growth and 
 development of the country, I say to you that it is my opinion posi- 
 tively that you can not build a city in Oregon, Kansas, Washington, 
 or any place else with the Government distributing commodities at a 
 flat rate. Why should you develop it? For instance, take your 
 State as an illustration. I know a young fellow by the name of 
 Charlie Stout — I knew his father very well — who went to Baker City 
 and bought a mill. He came to my office the other day in Indiana, 
 and he said, "Our commercial club wants you to come out to Baker 
 City and get some factories started; we have a nice country, and we 
 want your opinion about getting some of these eastern branches to 
 build factories out there," I said, " Charlie, the tendency of the time, 
 as I get it, is we are almost going to have free distribution by Govern- 
 ment and have cheap rates, and I do not see any necessity for building 
 factories out West." What a wonderful State is the State of Penn- 
 sylvania. What a wonderful development there has been since the 
 time of Senator Quay and Senator Cameron and the building of these 
 railways and these factories has grown to such an extent that the 
 farms scarcely pay any taxes. They get their money fof running the 
 Government in Pennsylvania from the industries and the railroads. 
 My family has owned a farm near Manheim, Pa., for a hundred years, 
 consisting of 300 acres, and last year the tax on it was $26. How 
 
PARCEL POST. 1091 
 
 have these towns been built ? Just by this development, just like I 
 told you. Take Lancaster, Harrisburg, Pittsburgh, and all those 
 cities, they have been built on this same plan. 
 
 The Chairman. What plan? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. On this plan of building the factory near to the land 
 in order to be near the coal mined and near to the forests. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, it is because of the natural advantages in 
 coal, forests, and transportation that they have been able to do that. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Those were the 
 
 The Chairman. The primary causes ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. The primary causes. But the thing that enters into 
 the distribution of these industrial plants more than any other thing 
 is fuel and transportation. They are so interlocked together that you 
 can not divorce them. Let the Government take hold of the trans- 
 portation problem and where are you ? How are you going to develop 
 new country with it? That is the point I make. For instance, go 
 back to the little merchant in Newcastle who built the store that we 
 used instead of the mail-order house. If we wanted the pianos dis- 
 tributed through Sears, Roebuck & Co. or Marshal Field, we would 
 have built that piano factory close to Chicago. That would have 
 been a sensible thing to have done, wouldn't it ? 
 
 The Chairman. Now, Mr. Hernly, there is no intention on the part 
 of the committee, so far is I am aware, or of Congress, so far as I am 
 aware, for any establishment of any competitive rate with the present 
 freight rate, but while I may be with you so far as your opposition 
 to governmental ownership is concerned — because to my mind it 
 means dry rot, bureaucracy, ultimate dissolution, or revolution — T. 
 would like to get your viewpoint as to where the cheapening of trans- 
 portation rates, either by the Government or by private enterprises, 
 is going to change your conditions in Pennsylvania. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. They are not going to at feet Pennsylvania as much 
 as they are Illinois. 
 
 The Chairman. How are they going to change conditions in Illinois ? 
 Do you mean to say that if the people of Illinois were able to secure a 
 reduction in freight rates from all points reaching Illinois of 10, 15, or 
 20 per cent they would object to it ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Will you please explain how you are going to get the 
 reduction of freight rates ? 
 
 The Chairman. If the Interstate Commerce Commission directed 
 or concluded that the rates were too high and had the authority and 
 instructed the railroads to lower their rates thej would have to do so. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Then you do it by Government regulation of the 
 railroads. 
 
 The Chairman. You have Government regulation of the railroads 
 already. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Sure you have. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, answer my question. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Well, I am. I have it right down pat and you are not 
 
 foing to get me off of the question at all. Wo have these factories in 
 'ennsylvania now. 
 
 The Chairman. We are speaking of Illinois. Would the people of 
 Illinois object to the reduction of 10 or 20 per rent in rates ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Don't bother me please. I am going to get right to 
 it. We did have this great volume of manufacturing in Pennsylvania . 
 
1092 PARCEL POST. 
 
 I have said there are 4,000 articles manufactured in Philadelphia, 
 the like of which are never manufactured west of the Alleghany 
 Mountains. How are you going to get those factories started in 
 Illinois when you already have your plant in Pennsylvania that can 
 be extended and developed further and grown much larger at one- 
 half the expense in Philadelphia and operate at less than half the 
 overhead charge. Hasn't Pennsylvania the advantage over Illi- 
 nois, whenever you put in a cheap Government express rate to 
 carry the goods to Illinois? 
 
 The Chairman. That is not an answer to my question. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Well, it absolutely is. 
 
 The Chairman. It is not an answer to my question. I asked 
 you specifically whether the people of Illinois would object to the 
 reduction of transportation rates of 10 or 20 per cent from all points, 
 coming to Illinois ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. That is freight and express. Whether the people 
 of Illinois would object to having goods brought to them cheaply? 
 If they are patriotic citizens and they know that one man is being 
 robbed to get this stuff to them cheap, they would object to it. If 
 they are a lot of gormandizers for money and not good citizens, 
 wholly undesirable citizens, they would not object but would accept 
 it in a general way and be content with it. I, as a citizen, would 
 not be content with that kind of a thing and neither would you. 
 You brought up this point and it is a very vital question and I agree 
 with you. We must have some regulation of these transportation 
 companies by this Government. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, we have it now. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. We have it now, but why don't we get after these 
 express companies and regulate their rates. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a matter for the Interstate Commerce 
 Commission. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. You have been taking testimony here for months on 
 the question of a parcel post. I object to all of this legislation, this 
 unnecessary thing. The Government service is the most inefficient 
 service in the world. 
 
 The Chairman. That- is, as compared with private enterprises ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Sure. 
 
 The Chairman. I agree with you you can never have in Govern- 
 ment the same efficiency you have in private enterprise. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. What is the use to bother with it when we have a 
 shorter cut to take advantage of the other fellow and still leave this 
 great field of opportunity open to all citizens for development? 
 Take, for instance, a man with a patent. Under our patent laws 
 
 The Chairman. We haven't that under consideration. We have 
 the parcel post under consideration now, so we will confine our 
 attention to that. We are not here to regulate the whole Govern- 
 ment or change the whole machinery of the Government. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. I know; but you are dealing with one of the most 
 vital parts of the Government and one of the most vital parts of 
 business, and that is the question of transportation. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Transportation shortens distances between commu- 
 nities. These railroads and transportation companies are the very 
 arteries of commerce that enable us to get in touch with each other, 
 
BARCEL POST.. 1093 
 
 and we can not eliminate them;, they are part of our existence, but we 
 can not see how the Government is going to perform a particular serv- 
 ice that will help build us up in an industrial way. The transporta- 
 tion problem is nothing but an industrial problem; that is all there is 
 to it and you can not eliminate it. ' We have gone ahead in this com- 
 munity and we have doubled it. There was an entire new country 
 there, and how many places are there in the State of Oregon where 
 towns are built just on that principle — not big cities, but towns where 
 you can put the people from the crowded tenement houses of New 
 York and Philadelphia, bring them out in Oregon along the railways, 
 where they can live in the beautiful valleys and on the great plains of 
 Kansas. 
 
 The Chairman. You can not be ubiquitous and be in Oregon and 
 Kansas at the same time. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. There are plenty to spread all around. Shall we 
 build these great cities larger and build the skyscrapers and build the 
 tenement houses still higher ? 
 
 The Chairman. I am with you in hoping that the people will go 
 back to the country. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Well, you are proposing a parcel-post law and I 
 say the parcel post is simply a proposition to build factories near 
 the cities with nobody but the large mail-order houses for distribu- 
 tors. Talk about dry rot! You can not put this Government to 
 doing any business but what you destroy enough opportunity to set 
 in dry rot in any community. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think the fourth-class mail matter as we 
 have it to-day has been productive of dry rot ? 
 
 Mr; Hernly. It is so infinitesimally small we do not notice it. 
 
 The Chairman. Yet we carry in the United States more fourth- 
 class mail matter than any other country, except Germany, to-day. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. That is one of the arguments why it ought not be 
 extended. 
 
 ' The Chairman. But to whose benefit? We have had evidence 
 •before the committee to the effect that Montgomery Ward & Co. 
 shipped 8 per cent of all their output, in value, through the fourth- 
 class mail; 10 per cent by express and 82 per cent' by freight. Goods 
 will always be shipped according to the cheapest method of trans- 
 portation, except the hurry-up orders. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Sure, that is good business sense. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, that is in evidence. Any business man 
 must concede that. Consequently, if you do not establish a rate 
 competitive with the freight rate, you are not changing the general 
 situation in the country at all. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Yes, but you are regulating the freight rate by the 
 Interstate Commerce Commission and you are passing a law to carry 
 freight by the Government. 
 
 The Chairman. No; you have already got the law. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Yes; to 4 pounds, and under that the mail-order 
 house is able to thrive and to distribute a great deal of its business. 
 
 The Chairman. But only 8 per cent of the value of mail-order 
 house business goes that way, according to the testimony before us. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. That is the most valuable part of its existence. 
 Every bit of the vitality of its existence starts under that fourth-class 
 mail privilege and that is the catalogues. 
 
1094 PABOEL POST. 
 
 Tho Chairman. That goes as third-class matter. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Well, the catalogue is the vital part of its existence. 
 We absolutely tax the rest of the people in this country to deliver 
 the catalogues over the country and distribute them to the detriment 
 of every other man in business. 
 
 The Chairman. You are not taxing the people, because the cata- 
 logues are carried at a profit at 8 cents a pound under the third-class 
 mail privilege. You would not favor legislation prohibiting the use 
 of catalogues, would you ? 
 
 Mr. HerNly. No; but I would make the rate on the newspapers 
 and the magazines the same. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a different proposition. We haven't the 
 second-class mail proposition under consideration just now. But 
 your catalogues that you refer to are carried by the Government at a 
 profit. That is the administrative branch of the Government, the 
 Post Office Department, which claims that they are making a profit 
 on third-class mail matter. 
 
 Mr. Hernlt. That is, as a whole they do it, and I think they show 
 by their reports 
 
 The Chairman. They pay 8 cents a pound on catalogues. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Eight cents a pound for the third-class mail. Now, 
 you are proposing to increase the facilities for the man who is already 
 established m the large mail-order business, and the manufacturer of 
 goods to supply the mail-order house will locate just as near as 
 possible, as he can, to the mail-order house. 
 
 The Chairman. That depends on the contract ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. No. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. They will always buy where they can get 
 things cheaper, the same as you and I do now, and the same as ©very- 
 body else does. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. And if the transportation charges were taken off of 
 these goods 
 
 The Chairman. How are they going to be taken off? The bulk of 
 their business will • inevitably be handled by freight, unless you 
 establish a competitive parcel-post rate with the freight, which I 
 have never heard anyone advocate, at least, not here in Congress. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Suppose you have a large distributing house in 
 Chicago and the manufacturer of the goods 6 miles out from the city 
 limits. Do you suppose a man in Portland, Me., could ship from 
 there by freight and compete with the fellow who was within 6 miles 
 of the department or mail-order store ? 
 
 The Chairman. Well, he could not do that to-day. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Of course he could not. 
 
 The Chairman. There is no law by which you can annihilate dis- < 
 tance or change the deposit of the natural resources. You can not 
 change the basic principle on which business is founded. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. I am arguing this from an industrial standpoint. 
 Here is a large distributing store in a large city. What is the tendency 
 of all the people who make goods for this large store ? Surely it is to 
 get their factories as close as they can to the large department store, 
 in order to deliver their goods as cheaply as possible. 
 
 The Chairman. Not necessarily. They may establish their dis- 
 tributing depots at different places in order to have distributing 
 branches. That is a matter of personal management and individual 
 
PARCEL POST. 1095 
 
 equation which enters into all business. It has no bearing on this 
 particular subject we have under consideration. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. It has all to do with it. The question of transporta- 
 tion of parcels 
 
 The Chairman. The output of a factory would not be shipped under 
 an 11-pound weight limit ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. How do you know it would not 9 
 
 The Chairman. It would never be done if they had a cheaper 
 method of transportation. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. How many packages under 5 pounds go out of the 
 city of Philadelphia. Take hosiery, handkerchiefs, laces, and things 
 of that sort. There are millions of packages going out of Philadelphia 
 alone. 
 
 The Chairman. They would not pay five times the rate by a parcel 
 post that they could have merchandise sent for by freight, except in a 
 hurry-up order? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Well, suppose you could not ship a carload of that 
 stuff by freight where a man wanted 6 pounds of it. Let's get at the 
 thing from flie question from purely the proposition of the industrial 
 development of the country. Why isn't Kansas City a large man- 
 ufacturing place? 
 
 The Chairman. Give your reason. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Maybe I am wrong. Last year they did not man- 
 ufacture $40,000,000 worth of stuff in Kansas City, Mo. On the 
 other side, in the provision market, which is a manufacturing propo- 
 sition, there was $200,000,000 worth of meat that went to the public 
 and consumer, but in my town there was more real manufacturing 
 done than there was in the city of Kansas City, Mo. There is enough 
 manufacturing done in Newcastle to build a steam railroad to Cleve- 
 land, Ohio. Now, as an illustration, there is a city like Kansas City 
 that did not do anything and there are about 25,000,000 people trib- 
 utary to Kansas City, which has a great big distributing depot. They 
 have that started. Now, in distributing your parcels through Kansas 
 City, I suppose a great deal of it goes by freight and then it is distrib- 
 uted in small quantities. I know that is the case in my town because 
 they ship pianos and kitchen cabinets and stuff like that. 
 
 The Chairman. They do not ship by mail after they get them there ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. If the package is small enough they do. For 
 instance, in the growing of roses in Newcastle we ship a carload of 
 rose bushes to Kansas City,' and we ship millions of them through the 
 mails under the present arrangement. You can not build a manu- 
 facturing city or build large industries at Kansas City, and they will 
 not be built there or in Oklahoma or Nebraska if the Government is 
 going to distribute parcels at a flat rate. You can not do it. Just 
 conceive of any way that we can improve on our industrial conditions 
 in Newcastle, in Iowa, Oklahoma, or Kansas, or any place. That is 
 what I want some of these proponents of a parcel post to stand up and 
 answer me. They say this is a great boon to the farmer. Why, that 
 is the worst rot there ever was. 
 
 The Chairman. The farmers want it. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. The farmers want everything. 
 
 The Chairman. So does everybody. That is human nature. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Is the Government going to step in and pass a law 
 simply because some of the people want it ? 
 
1096 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. No. What the committee is trying to do is to 
 come to a determination as to what can be done, what is desirable and 
 what is practicable. You can not criticize the legislative branch of 
 your Government for going into a proposition the same as you would 
 study a business proposition. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. No, sir; I am with you on that and I congratulate 
 you on these hearings and the cordial reception you give us, and I 
 approve of it heartily. But, in passing, let us see what the reason is. 
 Here is a particular class of people who want this legislation. What 
 for? How are you going to get this stuff in from the farms, this 
 butter and eggs ? Is the Government going out and bring it in, haul 
 it around and repack and recrate it? How are you going to do it? 
 They don't tell me how we are going to get this stuff in from the farm. 
 We are now going out with the mail to the farmers every day all over 
 the country. "Where we had good roads they started in a few years 
 ago and to-day they are hauling it whether we have good roads or 
 not. The more you give them the more they want, and if you open 
 this door and try to keep the weight of the packages down to 11 
 pounds, don't it seem to you, Senator, that that simpjy opens up the 
 way to two or three hundred pounds ? If it is a good thing, why stop 
 at 1 1 pounds ? 
 
 The Chairman. Not necessarily. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Can you offer any reason why if this thing is good for 
 11 pounds, it is not a good thing for 1,100 pounds ? 
 
 The Chairman. What we have under consideration at the present 
 time is the increase of weight to 1 1 pounds and the decrease in postage. 
 That is the study the committee is making. It is on that we are con- 
 fining our subject. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Yes. I have the idea clearly in my head. Now, 
 where is the genius to say that the weight is right, or that the price is 
 right? Did it ever occur to you that we are the greatest nation of 
 "tryers" that ever God made ? 
 
 The Chairman. We are rather successful under it, are we not ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Surely, because our country is so new. There are 
 only 25 of us to every square mile of land. 
 
 The Chairman. And because our people are relatively brainy too ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Yes. But it always occurred to me that to send a 
 commission over to Europe to try to find some system of Govern- 
 ment that would fit us was like trying to get a coat on a little 4-year- 
 old boy that would just fit on a 260-pound man. 
 
 The Chairman. We are not sending a commission to Europe, but 
 we are doing the work ourselves. 
 
 . Mr. Hernly. That is right and that is why there ought to be a 
 good deal of time and investigation put upon it. 
 
 The Chairman. That is what we are doing. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. That is exactly what you are to be commended for. 
 You do not want to hinder the industrial growth, but of course you 
 want to help it all you can. 
 
 The Chairman. Most assuredly. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. I have read 12 or 13 of these bills and no two of them 
 agree; and to my mind that is one of the most flagrant objections to 
 the whole proposition. 
 
 The Chairman. You never found any two people alike ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. No, sir. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1097 
 
 The Chairman. That is the difference of viewpoint. What we 
 have to do is to get as many viewpoints as possible — that is the reason 
 we are hearing you to-day. Then we have to come to a general aver- 
 age of the whole business. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. But you go into a bank where people sit around, and 
 they say we will charge you 6 per cent for the use of this money. 
 Business men get together pretty quickly on any business proposi- 
 tion. 
 
 The Chairman. They do not in reference to method. Method is 
 a matter of development. It is growth. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. They have to adopt policies, but governmental policies 
 are things that do not fluctuate like ordinary business. If you fix a 
 rate of 11 pounds, you can not ship 11 J. I do not know where this 
 11-pound idea got into anybody's head. Somebody in Indiana sug- 
 gested that that was just what a gallon of whisky, or a gallon jug 
 would weigh. I do not know. I don't know whether that was the 
 real idea that fixed this rate in the mind of this Member of Congress 
 who drew the bill. 
 
 The Chairman. You said you had read a number of bills. What 
 was the weight limit in the number of bills you read ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. I can not remember that. 
 
 The Chairman. They did not make much impression on your 
 mind, then? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. The one under consideration is the 11-pound bill. 
 Of course, I can not tell about this 11 -pound business; I do not know. 
 I am going to trust that to the committee and to Congress, and if it 
 is fixed at 11 pounds we have to go along and adjust our business 
 to it in the best way we can. If it is fixed at 11 pounds and it is a 
 good thing, I will have to work hard explaining to my people why it 
 should not be 200 or 300 pounds. A Member of Congress might be 
 able to make it 11 pounds and be reelected in his own district. 
 
 The Chairman. You do not know whether you could sell your 
 lot on that basis or not ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. I could not sell my lots on that basis at all. When- 
 ever the Government steps in and undertakes to destroy this condi- 
 tion of the retail merchant, the little shopkeeper, and transplant that 
 business all to the large distributor in the city, then you can not 
 develop any community. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Hernly, that is simply your ipsi dixit. I 
 would like your proof of where the destruction of the country mer- 
 chant would come. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Well, I do not like to refer to any foreign country; 
 but they are older than we are. How about England's industrial 
 improvement under the parcel-post law? I am not going to say 
 anything about it; but I will put that up to you. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not see that that has any bearing on the sub- 
 ject at all. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. It has gone back for 50 years. 
 
 The Chairman. They never had a parcel-post law until 1883. 
 What happened before" that ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. It has gone back every year since that. Hasn't it 
 gone back steadily for 50 years, and haven't their model communities 
 depleted for 50 years ? 
 
1098 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Well, let's neither one of us answer the question. 
 Let's look up the report of Mr. Wilkins, who was in Germany and gave 
 the statistics on the proposition. That is a volume easily obtainable. 
 I do not know how you can build a community by going out in 
 Oregon where the railroads cross, and instead of inviting in the mer- 
 chant and the shop keeper and the artisan you simply take a mail 
 wagon load of Sears, Roebuck & Co.'s catalogues and dump them 
 out at the railroad crossing and say, " Come in, people, and let's build 
 a town here." 
 
 The Chairman. That is done now the same as your advertising 
 matter, if you pay the postage on it. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Yes ; but who is going to build the town ? 
 
 The Chairman. What conditions do you have to have? You 
 explain for the benefit of the committee you have to have the natural 
 resources, virile people, and transportation facilities. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Sure, and let the Government keep its hands off. 
 
 The Chairman. If you will kindly indicate how long a time you 
 would like to submit your views I will ask no more questions unless 
 some special point comes up. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Well, I do not care to read all of the extracts from 
 speeches I have made on the question. The present method of dis- 
 tribution has been so firmly fixed and well established that to deviate 
 from this sort of plan certainly means disturbance to fixed business 
 conditions. Now, that is a proposition that faces everybody. 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, you are willing to leave well 
 enough alone ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. No; because you can not, and I make the point very 
 clearly that no city can stay at a population of 10,000; it has either 
 to grow or it has to deteriorate. I have for 25 years tried to create 
 such conditions as would bring to our various communities branches 
 of such of these manufacturing concerns as need more room. I say, 
 get them out of Philadelphia and the cities. The development in 
 Indiana began 25 years ago with the discovery of gas. Take for 
 instance, Lake, Ind. There is more manufacturing there than in the 
 whole State of Iowa. How are you going to get anj x of that moved 
 into Iowa ? By so fixing a flat rate for the movement of commodi- 
 ties by mail, freight, or any other way, so as to discriminate against 
 the people in Iowa by building up communities; and how are you 
 going to build up your o n State, Senator ? 
 
 The Chairman. You are here, Mr. Hernly, to submit to the com- 
 mittee your views and not to ask the committee questions. The 
 committee, when they come to conclusions, will inform the country 
 as to what those conclusions may be in the matter. What we want 
 is light and information, views, demonstrations, and facts, in order to 
 come to our conclusions. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Yes. That is the way at it, and of course we are 
 human beings, and we get along. Now, then, I take this industrial 
 situation throughout the United States and in all of the States. I 
 show where this industrial development is and has been for 200 years, 
 how it has been built and created. I say it follows the star of emigra- 
 tion westward very slowly but surely, and under conditions existing 
 it can, but under a parcel post it can not. Now, that is ipse dixit, 
 and I say that in the light of knowledge a man gains from reading 
 up on a subject. But why is not that entitled to as much weight 
 
PARCEL POST. 1099 
 
 as the contention of the man on the committee in Congress who says 
 that an 11-pound, parcel post will be the salvation of the whole 
 country ? Hasn't that some pretty broad egotism in it ? This 
 11-pound business I can not tell about. 
 
 The Chairman. The fact that you are here and we are listening 
 to you demonstrates that we are giving credit to your viewpoint 
 and to your opinions, doesn't it ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, we would like to receive them. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. I started in here with the very proposition of build- 
 ing a community where there wasn't any, improving land where 
 there wasn't any improvements, making two blades of grass grow 
 where one grew before, by inviting in the people to build stores, people 
 to build factories, people to build internrban railroads, people to 
 develop that community, and we have done so without any parcel 
 post. Now, isn't that proof that we are getting along tolerably 
 well? 
 
 The Chairman. You have a parcel post up to the extent of 4 
 pounds in weight limit ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Well, of course, using that as a criterion, that made 
 the little German woman come and establish her hotel and store at 
 Newcastle. 
 
 The Chairman. I did not assert that it did. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. No; but I am asserting the fact that what we have 
 done in that community stands as a record complete. We are 
 testifying to the agency and to the resourcefulness and to the ability 
 of the people to get together under present conditions and absolutely 
 build a happy, prosperous community without any Government aid. 
 
 The Chairman. And you are afraid it will be destroyed by an 
 increase in the weight limit from 4 pounds. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. I say, you could not do it at all under the parcel- 
 post proposition. What great underlying principle would reason for 
 the increase. Why not increase it, from your side of the question or 
 from any man's side of the question, if it is a good business proposition 
 to increase it to 11 pounds, why should not anybody say it would not 
 be a better proposition to increase it to 1,100 ? Of course, there is the 
 line on which we differ. I do not know whether you are in favor of a 
 parcel post or not, Senator, but I accept from your article that you 
 are. Your articles in the Saturday Evening Post are very able 
 articles, and I congratulate you upon them. You have gathered 
 together great data, and I have thought about them and discussed 
 them with other gentlemen in my home town, in the industrial meet- 
 ings, and at home clubs before the Industrial Merchants' Association, 
 and we have had them up for criticism and comments, and I con- 
 gratulate you on those articles. Why would our merchants' associa- 
 tions all over the country pass resolutions against the parcel post 
 being increased to 1 1 pounds ? Some of them have passed resolutions 
 to take away the 4-pound limit. 
 
 The Chairman. Because they are unconvinced that the increased 
 facility will benefit them. Because of the peculiarity of humanity 
 that no individual will consent to any change unless that change will 
 directly or indirectly benefit him in increasing the general welfare in 
 which he as one of the units of the community will participate. 
 
1100 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 Mr. IIernly. That is the reason why our Government was not 
 built on that basis. 
 
 The Chairman. But our Government is built on human nature ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. The -preamble of the Constitution of the United 
 States does not state that. Now, this new piano factory which I have 
 talked about was built there and successfully operated and employs 
 four or five hundred men. The stores and shops of that community 
 and the houses were built. It is an ideal industrial community, with 
 wide streets, shade trees, plenty of ground where gardens are kept and 
 where all of these conditions grew up. 
 
 The Chairman. There are some lots left to be sold ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. We have a movement on foot to sell a few to locate 
 2 very large factories there, not to build a city, but simply to grow 
 and develop the town. For instance, we are taking in a Dranch of a 
 cotton mill located at Mohawk, N. Y., that will give employment to 
 400 women and girls. We have so much male labor employed there 
 that the conditions are not well balanced and a man who moves in 
 with 4 or 5 girls may be a good mechanic, but his family want employ- 
 ment. We are putting in this knitting mill, which is a diversified 
 industry that comes along and makes the community an ideal one. 
 We have all of these industrial conditions in that community. We 
 have built out there practically, and it is the finest community and 
 the best community of its kind on this continent and more business 
 is done there in proportion to its size than any other place in the 
 country. 
 
 The Chairman. I think the committee understands Newcastle 
 pretty well, from the lucid explanation you have made of it. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. We commenced it with the building of this store. 
 
 The Chairman. I understand that. As we will have to take a recess 
 within a quarter of an hour, I will ask that you kindly conclude your 
 remarks within that time. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. I can, and I will be through by that time. For 10 
 years we have been building this city; we have never had a boom, 
 but real-estate prices have steadily advanced; everybody has made 
 money out of the lots they have bought and helped to establish these 
 factories. We have felt that the men who have come in our midst 
 and built the factories and sent their money and paid out large sums 
 in wages, who brought to us a commodity, were worth something to 
 us and our real estate; consequently we have helped them in many 
 ways. We thought that the laboring man was entitled to the best 
 there was in the way of living, that he ought to have a house to live in 
 and where his family could rear children and have the better siae of 
 life. That is one of the things that I suppose is intended by this 
 parcel post, to better the conditions of humanity and the laboring 
 man and the farmer and everybody else ; but the greatest howl about 
 this parcel post and the people who want it most is from the friends 
 of the Grange, that this shall be for the benefit of the farmer, -and that 
 is what I am protesting against. If it is to be done for the farmer 
 at the expense of any other class of citizens, it is not right and it does 
 not come within the meaning of the square deal and it retards rather 
 than helps to build the farm. The point I make is that the establish- 
 ing of just the land of industrial institutions I have established in 
 Henry County, Ind., has done more to help the farmer by giving him 
 a place where his children can go, and where he can distribute more 
 
PARCEL, POST. 1101 
 
 goods than he would by a parcel post. There is a better market for 
 his chickens, his eggs, and Ms watermelons in Newcastle than there is 
 in Cincinnati, or any place where the Government might transport 
 them to. We have been very much opposed to the mail-order house. 
 There is less mail-order house business done in this community than 
 in any other. That is one thing we have operated against. There 
 are other communities in Indiana where thousands of orders go to the 
 mail-order houses in Chicago and to the banks. 
 
 The Chairman. Where do your country merchants buy their goods ? 
 
 Mr. Heenly. They trade in Chicago, Cincinnati and with the largest 
 distributing houses. 
 
 The Chairman. They have to pay for them ? 
 
 Mr. Keenly. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. They send their money out to get them ? 
 
 Mr. Heenly. They do. 
 
 The Chaieman. So money goes out the same that way as it does 
 to the mail-order house or to anybody else ? 
 
 Mr. Heenly. Yes, but we are getting in 115,000,000 for the pianos, 
 roses, and other goods ? Don't that sound good 1 
 
 The Chaieman. Certainly. 
 
 Mr. Heenly. They are goods when it comes to the question of 
 checks and balances and we are coming right through with it. So, 
 we have built this community, we are taking care of the farmer, and 
 he is the last man in the world to kick. The wealth of the country 
 to-day has drifted out to the farms. You can not take 160 acres of 
 land in that whole country to-day but what there are from three to 
 ten thousand dollars worth of assets on every bit of the land, farm 
 produce, hay and things of that kind that bring money cpuickly. All 
 these important industrial lines have developed rapidly in Pennsyl- 
 vania. We developed this rose industry. We had no great natural 
 resources at Newcastle; we never had cheap fuel, but the freight rate 
 on coal was 60 cents a ton and we took the conditions and built this 
 community; there wasn't anybody outside that helped us. The ones 
 who came in to be citizens were merchants, artisans, carpenters and 
 all of the different trades were represented and we built this industrial 
 community, and I can go in any State and take the conditions and so 
 shape them to fit the community and build a trading community there 
 that offers all the market. 
 
 The Chaieman. I would think your services would be in great de- 
 mand? 
 
 Mr. Heenly. Well, this ought not go into the record, but I am sorry 
 to tell you pretty nearly every organization and club from Jackson- 
 ville to Seattle have wanted me to come to their towns and show them 
 how. 
 
 The Chairman. You have to get on the ground and make your 
 study before you come to your conclusions ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Sure. I have been to Kansas City on that very prop- 
 osition. They gave me $1,000 to look over the situation in Kansas 
 City and I spent a week there and was over the whole country. While 
 I have done some good, I can not spread out over the whole country. I 
 have been to Milwaukee and around the Lakes and I suggested that 
 steel could be made cheaper at the foot of Lake Michigan than any 
 other place in the world, and it can, because the ore and the coal are 
 nearer that place. 
 
1102 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. It is the question of assembling ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. The question of assembling. I here is the lake for 
 transportation and all the great trunk lines of railroads center there. 
 Senator, we have built this little industrial town using all these forces 
 and influences together; we have not separated them, we have not 
 asked anybody to assist us and we haven't asked any Government 
 patrimony, but we have used these forces and upon these forces 
 depend the happiness of every people in the world. How are you 
 going to get away from it? You can not substitute legislation for 
 education; you can not legislate happiness, contentment, and pros- 
 perity into people; the function of government ought to be the gov- 
 ernment of people as little as possible. Instead of the Government 
 going into business, regulate the business; that is my doctrine alto- 
 gether. I would regulate the express companies and the freight 
 companies, and the telephone and the telegraph companies. If there 
 are any bad men who need to be put in jail, let's put them into jail, 
 and under our present laws let's use common law and common sense. 
 I am not a believer in turning the Government into any business. I 
 think that is a mistake from any standpoint. I never held an office, 
 and I don't want an office, but I want to be let alone. I want good 
 health and common sense; I want to educate my children to be good 
 citizens and to love their country. I don't want them to become 
 haters of the country through this attempt at all this legislation. I 
 do not like to see this flaring out in the newspapers of a cabinet officer 
 proposing to take over the telephone and telegraph lines. It breeds 
 contempt for Government service. 
 
 The Chairman. You can rest assured the initiation will rest with 
 Congress. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. I think it ought. 
 
 The Chairman. So do I. You and I agree on that absolutely. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. This country has been built upon the basis that I 
 have stated, upon this great industrial development, and the strong- 
 est example of it is the State of Pennsylvania; but it is now moving 
 westward. The city of Philadelphia is getting too much, New York 
 is getting too much and we ought to move a little ol it out and extend 
 it over the great western plains and make a good many of those arti- 
 cles out there. I am fairly convinced, and possibly I ought not to 
 say it, for ma3 T be I am wrong, but I am not going to admit that I am, 
 that you can not do it with a parcel post. An j number of pounds 
 that you can increase it to, if it is going to benefit a particular class, 
 that particular class is going to demand more of it. They will demand 
 the pounds to be increased, the distance increased, the zones enlarged, 
 until you have swept away the golden opportunity of our American 
 children and the coming generations and you have destroj'ed that 
 desire to build and to have and to hold. I look at it that way. I 
 know so well the growth and development of these communities 
 and have gone into them and helped build. We have established the 
 largest plant of the kind at Evansville, Ind., for some of the people in 
 St. Louis and Cleveland, and other industries at other places. 
 
 The Chairman. Whv didn't they erect their plant in St. Louis or 
 Cleveland ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. They already had one on the Lakes, and they wanted 
 one on the Ohio River close to the Panama Canal. 
 
 The Chairman. To get another market ? 
 
PARCEL POST. 1103 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Close to the Panama Canal with an outlet there. 
 
 The Chairman. "What do you refer to ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. The American Steam Shovel Co. at Evansville, Ind. 
 I had an engineer make an industrial map of the Mississippi Valley, 
 showing the location oi ore, coal, gas, oil, timber, water, and every- 
 thing of that kind, showing a good deal of the topography, the high 
 and the low, the grades with regard to railroad construction, and I 
 have studied out the industrial plan of development which will later 
 come. 
 
 The Chairman. But in all of your study you take the transporta- 
 tion as the basic fundamental. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Not altogether. You have to have transportation 
 and fuel. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, transportation covers your fuel as a matter 
 of fact, unless you have it on the ground. 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Well, those are elements. Transportation is an 
 element and it is one thing that I harp so much about in this state- 
 ment, that the Government should keep its hands off of every under- 
 taking to fix flat rates for transportation. 
 
 The Chairman. Yet you believe in Governmental regulation ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Absolutely, and you have to have it. 
 
 The Chairman. But you are bitterly opposed to Governmental 
 ownership ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Sure, because by Governmental control you get the 
 most efficient service there is. Why should not the Government 
 control a corporation that lives on the people and say how much it 
 shall contribute to maintain and upkeep the Government? For 
 instance, in my town, the Standard Oil Co. does more business than 
 it does in Muncie and Indianapolis together; still, they are paying 
 less toward running that Government where we create these condi- 
 tions for them to do this business, than the taxes I have to pay on 
 my house. Now, I want the people in Congress to fix it so that 
 the Standard Oil Co. must contribute their just share for the mainte- 
 nance of the Government. But, in order to do that I do not think 
 the Government should go out and buy it up and thereby remove the 
 very institution from which it collects its taxes. Let them pay the 
 taxes. 
 
 Suppose the Government owned all this property? They could 
 collect no taxes at all on it. Somebody has to work to pay these 
 taxes. My notion is to keep the Government out of business as much 
 as possible. We are not seeking to build a large city at Newcastle, 
 but we are going to keep a good healthy growth. We will locate a 
 factory every four or five years and keep it going. We get short on 
 houses now and then and have to double under. The Maxwell-Bristoe 
 Co. spent $150,000 last year for houses for people to live in. We could 
 not build them fast enough. Nothing is out of reason, rents are not 
 exorbitant, we have kept the supply and demand as nearly equal and 
 as cheap as anywhere, and we have never asked any help from outside 
 people, except from those who wanted to come in and buy our lots 
 and build houses and help us along. How much better it would be 
 if we could get from every State in the country some of those facto- 
 ries distributed out on the plains and take the people out there from 
 the large crowded cities. Let us break up this congested condition in 
 
1104 PARCEL POST. 
 
 the cities. My notion is that a parcel post tends to congest rather 
 than to segregate. 
 
 The Chairman. What is your remedy to break up the congested 
 conditions? Is it to take the people where the advantages of the 
 country towns are ? 
 
 Mr. Hernly. Yes, sir; and they will learn them quick. Now, I do 
 not want to detain you any longer. I am perfectly satisfied, and I 
 am glad I talked it over and am sorry you were detained. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very glad to have had an opportunity of 
 getting your views, Mr. Hernly. 
 
 (Thereupon, at 12.30 o'clock, the committee adjourned to meet at 
 the call of the chairman.) 
 
SATURDAY, JANUARY 27, 1912. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), Senator 
 Nathan P. Bryan, and Senator Claude A. Swanson. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. GEORGE E. CASKIE, AN ATTORNEY AT LAW 
 OF LYNCHBURG. VA. 
 
 Mr. Caskie was first duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Caskie, will you kindly state your age, resi- 
 dence, and occupation ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. My name is George E. Caskie; my age is 54; my occu- 
 pation is that of attorney at law, and I reside at Lynchburg, Va. 
 
 The Chairman. In your appearance before the committee to-day 
 having the problem of the parcel post under consideration, are you 
 here in a representative capacity; if so, would you kindly designate 
 what interests you represent, so that the committee may get the 
 information as to the class of the society and how large the interests 
 are that are represented? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I am a member of the Chamber of Commerce of the 
 city of Lynchburg. I was informed by the secretary of that body 
 that the chamber of commerce, the retailers' association, and the 
 board of trade, which are the three largest business organizations of 
 the city of Lynchburg, had appointed a committee, of which I was 
 one, to represent these three bodies before this committee to-day, 
 and I was requested to come here as the representative of those three 
 bodies. 
 
 The Chairman. The bodies that you have designated represent 
 what in membership and what in volume of business done annually, 
 would you say ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. It would be very difficult for me to give you that infor- 
 mation. Mr. Hyland, who is present nere, is president of the retailers' 
 association, and he will be able to answer that question, or Mr. 
 Craddock, who until a short time ago was president of the chamber 
 of commerce and who is now a member of the board of trade, will be 
 able to give you information on the subject. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, would you state for the information of the 
 committee whether these organizations that you represent in this 
 hearing to-day are in favor of or opposed to the Government enlarg- 
 ing the scope of our present fourth-class mail privilege as representing 
 our parcel post now in existence ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. The organizations as a whole are opposed to any en- 
 largement of the postal service for the purpose of carrying merchan- 
 dise. So far as I know I believe every individual member of each 
 of the three organizations is opposed to it. I have never heard that 
 any member of these organizations has favored it. I know that all 
 with whom I have talked on the subject are opposed to it, and I have 
 reason to believe that thev are unanimous. 
 
 1105 
 
1106 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Had the subject matter been under discussion, 
 before the various organizations, so that there was full deliberation 
 in reference to the matter ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I have never been present at any discussion of the 
 matter before the organizations. 1 have understood that the vari- 
 ous members of the organizations have discussed it a good deal 
 personally and privately, and have talked about it in some of their 
 meetings, and certainly when the matter came up they felt a suffi- 
 cient interest in it to advocate the appointment of this committee to 
 come here regarding the matter. 
 
 The Chairman. Was the committee appointed by the directors or 
 the executive committee or the representatives of the various organi- 
 zations, or at meetings of the organizations in which the subject 
 matter was discussed and action taken ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. One of those bodies 
 
 The Chairman. Which one, kindly* 
 
 Mr. Caskie. The board of trade adopted a series of resolutions. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you copies of the resolutions with you ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Mr. Craddock has a copy of those resolutions in his 
 pocket. The other bodies, as I understand it, were aware of the 
 passage of those resolutions, and perhaps they were read to them; 
 but that, however, I am not clear about. They authorized the 
 appointment of a committee to aid in any action which the board of 
 trade might take. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state, for the information of the 
 committee, the reasons why these organizations that you represent 
 are opposed to the enlargement of our present parcel-post system as 
 represented under the fourth-class mail privilege ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I do not know that I could give the reasons which 
 actuated the various members of these organizations. I can give the 
 reasons which have occurred to me, and which I know are regarded by 
 a good many of the individual members of these organizations as 
 entirely satisfactory and which I believe to be the reasons which 
 actuated most of these organizations. First, we feel that it is not the 
 legitimate business of the Government. The present parcel-post 
 system is carrying merchandise to a limited extent at a given price 
 which, as we understand it, is an expensive proposition and entails an 
 annual loss upon the Government from a financial standpoint. 
 
 The Chairman. In that connection, if you were convinced that you 
 were mistaken in your opinion and assumption that the present fourth- 
 class mail matter entailed an annual loss to the Government under 
 the present rate, would your objection be removed or lessened ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. That would demonstrate that that particular reason 
 for the objection was not valid, but the objection would still remain. 
 We do not feel that the Government ought to take up the matter of 
 transporting merchandise. It is a species of paternalism, in which 
 the Government uses its power and its prestige, to give to one class of 
 people an advantage over other classes of dealers in the same mate- 
 rial. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you explain, for the benefit of the com- 
 mittee, how the creation of an additional activity or an enlargement 
 of its scope with opportunity to everyone to utilize it if they so cared 
 to do, is a special privilege for any single class in society ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Because from my point of view it gives to the mail- 
 order house an advantage in the matter of transportation which is a 
 
PARCEL POST. 1107 
 
 distinct disadvantage to the people engaged in selling the like classes 
 of merchandise in a different way. Perhaps I can make myself a 
 little clearer by stating that we have a great many retail houses- 
 retail stores, that is — in the country, and in the various parts of 
 Virginia and of this United States. If you give to the mail-order 
 house 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any mail-order houses ? 
 
 Sir. Caskie. No, sir; not so far as I am informed. If you give 
 to the mail-order house the additional advantage of having its busi- 
 ness transported at a very much reduced cost and practically at the 
 expense of the Government, in a measure, you take away from those 
 retail merchants almost the means of subsistence. You practically 
 put them out of business. Now, it is true that there is a considerable 
 amount of stuff which the retail merchants can still sell, because its 
 weight would perhaps preclude - the mail-order house from using 
 the mails for that business, but when you take away from him all 
 of the small wares, everything which would be under the weight re- 
 quired for the transportation by mail, when you take that away 
 from him, you have taken away so many of the articles of profit 
 that he could not afford to remain in business for the purpose of 
 handling the stuff that is heavier than the postal facility would 
 transport for him. 
 
 The Chairman. May I interrupt you 1 In your statement just 
 made you predicate your objection on two assumptions, one that 
 you are going to take something away from the retail merchant and 
 give it to the mail-order house. If by legislation you increase an 
 activity which every citizen of the country can enjoy, I fail to see 
 how you are taking away from one individual and giving something 
 to another. The other assumption, or premise, that you make there is 
 that this legislation, if enacted, is going to entail a loss to the Govern- 
 ment. There has been no consideration by the committee thus far, 
 as far as I have understood, where it was anticipated that legislation 
 would be enacted that would result in an ultimate loss to the Govern- 
 ment. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I am not aware of exactly what legislation is proposed. 
 I am informed that there are a large number of bills pending before 
 this committee. 
 
 The Chairman. There are two bills pending before this committee 
 only; one is what is known as the O' Gorman bill and the other is a 
 bill that I introduced to give to the American people the same privi- 
 leges that we now give to foreigners ; that is, to put our own fourth- 
 class mail matter on a par with the international postal business. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. May I ask a question ? 
 
 The Chairman. Most assuredly. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Is the arrangement by which the foreigner receives 
 this advantage due to an act of Congress or to a ruling of the Post 
 Office Department ? 
 
 The Chairman. It is due to an arrangement made with other nations 
 under power delegated to the Postmaster General by and with the 
 advice and consent of the President of the United States. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Congress has never passed upon.it, has it ? 
 
 The Chairman. It has delegated the power to the department 
 and, under that power as delegated, the department has acted. 
 
1108 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. To return to what I was saying; we believe that the 
 enlargement of the postal facilities for the purpose of handling mer- 
 chandise will be a serious handicap to, if not practically destroy, the 
 retailer. The commercial system which prevails in this country 
 to-day has been the outgrowth of a condition over which the people 
 have practically no control. Naturally, the manufacturing enter- 
 prises were first located in that part of the country which was most 
 thickly settled, and therefore New York and New England continue 
 to-day practically the factories which supply the people of the United 
 States with manufactured goods. 
 
 The Chairman. The transportation facilities, then, govern the 
 establishment of manufactures primarily, do they not ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Largely; yes, sir. The location of these factories in 
 these more densely populated portions of the Union made it almost 
 necessary that there should be jobbers, distributed throughout the 
 different sections of the Union, in order that a supply of the manu- 
 factured articles might be reasonably accessible to the various parts 
 of the country. We have such a large country, and the distances are 
 so great, that it would be impossible for the retailer to oftentimes get 
 to the manufacturing centers, and therefore the jobbers are distrib- 
 uted throughout the country. They distribute to the retailer and the 
 retailer to the consumer. This condition has been brought about after 
 a great deal of expenditure, both of money and of time and of labor, 
 and established relations have existed between the retailer, the jobber, 
 and the jobber and the manufacturer. These parties have undertaken 
 to establish trade by the expenditure of large sums of money, by the 
 devotion of a great amount of time, and the expenditure of years of 
 effort to build up their respective trades. If it is so provided that the 
 manufacturer of the East can deal directly with the consumer, it seems 
 that the result would be to eliminate, to a large extent, if not almost 
 entirely, both the jobber and the retailer. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you favor legislation prohibiting the con- 
 struction of more railroads, the extension of any more express facili- 
 ties, or the utilization of any more transportation facilities in this 
 country ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I undoubtedly would not. I would, however, favor 
 legislation which would prevent the Government from even carrying 
 4-pound merchandise and undertaking to become the transporter of 
 commodities which constitute the business of the people. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, then, is not your objection primarily against 
 the fundamental governmental operation in competition with private 
 enterprise ? You believe in regulation and not in ownership ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. So far as it is practical that that should be true, I do. 
 
 The Chairman. Under existing conditions, can you explain for the 
 benefit of the committee where injury has accrued to the retail mer- 
 chants of this country through the operation of the mail-order and 
 catalogue houses ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I can give you one illustration which came under my 
 observation a very few days ago. I happen to be the president of an 
 orphan asylum. A short time ago we changed superintendents, 
 getting a man from West Virginia. A few days after he took charge 
 of the institution he came into my office to confer with me about 
 buying some supplies for that institution. I recommended him to a 
 certain number of Lynchburg houses for the purpose of buying those 
 
PARCEL POST. 1109 
 
 supplies. He seemed to be very much surprised at my wanting to 
 do it, and said that he had already written a letter, which he had in 
 his hand at the time, to Montgomery Ward & Co., of Chicago, and 
 he believed he could get those things cheaper from Montgomery 
 Ward & Co. than from the people in Lynchburg. He said that out 
 in the country from" where he came the people with whom he had 
 been in contact bought very largely from that company and used 
 that means of purchasing. 
 
 The Chairman. That is through Montgomery Ward & Co. ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Through Montgomery Ward & Co.; they were very 
 largely using that means, and he thought it was the best thing to do. 
 It is perhaps useless for me to add that I told him we would not buy 
 that way. 
 
 The Chairman. How large were his orders in weight; were they small 
 orders, made up of a few pounds, or were they assembled orders in 
 hundreds of pounds or more in weight '( 
 
 Mr. Caskie. He never sent airy order. The one about which he 
 conferred with me was for some underwear for a few of the larger 
 boys in the institution, and I do not suppose the order would weigh 
 over 4 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, what are the determinate factors in the minds 
 of would-be purchasers — quality and price? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. It is almost impossible to answer that question. I 
 think the factors in the mind of the purchaser would vary almost as- 
 much as there would be purchasers. There is a disposition on the 
 part of a great many people to try anything that they think will give 
 them a better price or a better quality. I may say that I think that 
 one of the reasons, and that I expected to add later to what I had said, 
 was that there is absolutely no protection to the public in this class 
 of business. If the mail-order house is absolutely honest and straight 
 the man who deals with it is not at any special disadvantage, so 
 far as goods are concerned, but the mail-order house generally re- 
 quires that the money shaU be sent in advance, and when they get the 
 money and the man gets the goods, if the goods do not come up to 
 representation he is practically helpless, because he could not afford 
 to take up any litigation or pursue the matter with people hundreds 
 of miles away. 
 
 The Chairman. Is not that statement of yours, if a fact, clearly a 
 protection to the retail merchant? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. No, sir; not a protection to the retail merchant, 
 because the sale of that much goods has been made. 
 
 The Chairman. But an individual who has had an experience of 
 that kind naturally would have some irritation if he found he had not 
 received goods in accordance with representation's made to him, and 
 he would try to get his money returned, and if he were unable to do 1 
 so without litigation he would not continue to buy through mail-order 
 houses. That would be human nature. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I do not suppose it would if the man was in the habit 
 of doing that thing very largely. 
 
 The Chairman. Row many illustrations do you think a man would 
 want of that land ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I think it would be very easy to find people who would 
 try a good many illustrations. He would not, perhaps, patronize that 
 particular mail-order house any more, but it would not deter him 
 
1110 PAEOEL POST. 
 
 from trying some other mail-order house; and there is no reason why 
 a mail-order house may not have three or four names. In fact, I 
 have heard that there are mail-order houses operating under two or 
 three names, and when you are dissatisfied with one you can try 
 another. I believe there are people to-day who do that. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know that, Mr. Caskie ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I do not. 
 
 The Chairman. What we want is knowledge, opinions, and demon- 
 strations for the information of the committee. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I do not know of any specific facts of that; but T do 
 know something about human nature. 
 
 The Chairman. We would like information on that subject, too. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. The objection we have to this extension of the parcel- 
 post system is that in the whole South, and certainly in the West as 
 well, there is a disposition to establish manufacturing enterprises. 
 The reasons which have brought about this disposition are perfectly 
 apparent. 
 
 The Chairman. Closer to the raw materials? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Closer to the raw materials, closer to the fuel supply, 
 and they have better labor conditions. 
 
 The Chairman. And also increased transportation faculties ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. And better transportation facilities, because they have 
 a large territory which is close to them, and which they can under- 
 take to supply. If the United States Government will go into the 
 business of transporting merchandise at a flat rate regardless of dis- 
 tance and give to the man in New England the same rate of transpor- 
 tation that it gives to the man in Virginia, North Carolina, or South 
 Carolina, there is no longer any temptation, so far as transportation 
 is concerned, or inducement to any man to establish his enterprise in 
 the South or in the West. The matter of transportation is settled, 
 and settled so as to prevent the South or the West from enjoying the 
 opportunities and privileges which nature seems to have provided 
 for them in that regard. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Caskie, before this committee, and, so far as I 
 know, before the committee in the House, no bill has been introduced 
 which contemplates competitive rates on the part of the Post Office 
 Department or the United States Government with freight rates. 
 The great bulk of the business of the country, with all classes in society 
 is carried by freight, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I think it is to-day. 
 
 The Chairman. And will continue so, provided no other method 
 of transportation at a cheaper rate is created, would it not ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I should think so, except upon the question of rapidity. 
 I take it for granted" that the United States mail would be faster than 
 the ordinary freight train. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes, doubtless, but the volume of business, the 
 infringement, if you so care to term it, would not be material as com- 
 pared with the volume of business conveyed by freight. It would 
 only be the hurry-up orders, and then the determination in the mind 
 of the individual who had to decide would be whether the increased 
 rates charged for the extra service, so far as time or expedition is 
 concerned, was sufficiently low to compensate for the benefit under 
 the hurry-up receipt, would it not ? 
 
PARCEL POST, 1111 
 
 , Mr. Caskie. That would be largely true, but I imagine if a man 
 wanted a dozen of any given manufactured article he would hardly 
 need all twelve of them in a hurry, and he could, if he desired to do 
 so, get them from the northern manufacturer by putting an order 
 for two, three, or four, or whatever he needed, in a hurry, into the 
 post office at that point and letting the balance come along more at 
 leisure. The distinctive advantage to the New England manufac- 
 turer over the local manufacturer would then exist. 
 
 The Chairman. You have failed to make clear, to my mind at 
 least, where you are going to establish a special privilege to any 
 class in our society by increasing a general privilege that every citi- 
 zen may participate in if he sees fit. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I have given, as I recall, two or three reasons why, 
 to my mind, it would be unwise for the Government to pursue this 
 policy. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the fundamental leasons for the disinclina- 
 tion of the Government to enter into competition with private enter- 
 prise — that is your primary reason, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. That is a reason, I would not say it- was the primary 
 reason. 
 
 The Chairman. Then your second reason is the fear that the retail 
 merchant will be injured, without any demonstration that you have 
 made in proof of the correctness of your assumption. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I think that the whole proposition of the parcel post 
 is to an extent a matter of uncertainty, because it has never been 
 actually tried to the extent which I understand it is now proposed. 
 
 The Chairman. Then it is the peculiarity of human nature, the 
 timidity of humanity, and also the selfishness of humanity, that no 
 individual is willing to consent to a change, unless convinced in his 
 own mind that the change is going to benefit him or increase the 
 general welfare. We come back then to human nature again. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. That is one of the .characteristics of a great deal of 
 human nature. I do not believe that I would personally feel exactly 
 that way. I would not be willing to tie to anything that I was 
 naturally satisfied would be a very distinct disadvantage to me or 
 my calling. If, however, any proposition was made which might 
 benefit somebody else, and if I did not feel perfectly convinced it 
 was going to do me an injury, I think I would be willing to give it 
 a trial. 
 
 The Chairman. How many railroads have you passing through 
 Lynchburg ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. We have the Chesapeake & Ohio, the Southern, and 
 two branches of the Norfolk & Western, the main branch of the Nor- 
 folk & Western, and the Lynchburg & Durham, which was sold out 
 some years ago to the Norfolk & Western. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you have, in fact, four railroads? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Practically; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You would not object to another railroad being 
 built through Lynchburg and going to the Pacific coast, would you ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I would not object to such a railroad being built by 
 private enterprise. I would object to the Government building such 
 a railroad and undertaking to enter into competition. 
 
 The -Chairman. But we have not under consideration the construc- 
 tion of a railroad by the Government at all. 
 
1112 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. But we have under consideration the question of the 
 Government entering into transportation business, as I understand it ? 
 
 The Chairman. No ; we have the fact that the Government is already 
 in the transportation business, so far as its fourth-class mail privilege 
 is concerned, carrying packages under a classification established by 
 law and the Postal Department, up to 4 pounds in weight, at 1 cent 
 an ounce. Now, what we have under consideration is an increase of 
 that weight and a decrease of that postage, and the advisability, from 
 the general welfare standpoint, of all the citizens of the United States. 
 What the committee is endeavoring to determine is where any interests 
 would be detrimentally affected by such action and how legislation can 
 be enacted that will be practical and advisable from the general wel- 
 fare standpoint. We are in a study. We are in a process of ascer- 
 tainment; we are trying to get the views of the people of the country; 
 we are trying to get all the light and information possible upon the 
 subject, and we have expended much time in collection of data from 
 those countries that have a much more liberal parcel post in operation, 
 and we expect to determine how far we can with safety utilize the 
 experience and demonstration of other countries, taking into con- 
 sideration the difference in conditions in those countries and in our 
 own. The committee's mind, I am sure, is open, and they will be 
 very glad to receive any information bearing upon the subject that 
 any individual can submit. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I understand the proposition is to enlarge the present 
 parcel facility in the matter of transportation of merchandise. Per- 
 sonally I am not only opposed to that, as I believe the business people 
 of Virginia are, almost to a man, but I believe that a decided advance- 
 ment would be made if the present arrangement were changed so as to 
 prevent the Government from entering into the business of transpor- 
 tation of merchandise. It seems to me that is a matter for the private 
 enterprise and for the business corporations to adjust, and not a gov- 
 ernmental function; but for that matter my opinion, of course, is very 
 immaterial. I have given, as I said, three reasons why I do not think 
 it ought to be done. First, because it was a species of paternalism 
 by which the Government was advancing the business of the mail- 
 order houses at the cost of people engaged in like business. 
 
 The Chairman. Wouldn't you segregate that first objection and 
 make your first objection due to the fact that you did not believe in 
 governmental operation of transportation facilities of the country or 
 that you were opposed to the Government competing with private 
 enterprise? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I think probably I ought to have divided that objec- 
 tion into two parts; first, my personal belief that the Government 
 ought not to engage in private business; and, secondly, the fact that 
 it was in my judgment subsidizing one business at the expense of 
 another business of the country. 
 
 The Chairman. How can you prove that ? That is what I want to 
 get at. It is inconceivable to my mind that you can create an oppor- 
 tunity free to all and that that opportunity is going to be a special 
 privilege to anyone. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. If the United States Government were to construct a 
 railroad running clear across this country it would be a railroad which 
 would be free to all and which might be used by every citizen of the 
 Union. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1113 
 
 The Chairman. Along the line of the railroad, but it wouldn't be 
 open to the whole country. That would be a special privilege to the 
 individuals who resided within the zone of activity of that par- 
 ticular road. 
 
 Mr. Caskib. Then we might make it general by having the United 
 States Government build railroads all over the country so as to reach 
 the people in every zone of the country. 
 
 The Chairman. That would be absolutely impracticable. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I think it would, and that being true, it seems to me 
 if it is improper 
 
 The Chairman. I did not say "improper"; I said "impracticable." 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I think it is not only impracticable but improper, and 
 if it is improper for the United States Government to build a railroad 
 to transport merchandise, it seems to me that it would be improper 
 for the United States Government to use some other method of accom- 
 plishing the same result. 
 
 The Chairman. But the United States Government already has 
 the machinery in existence, and the question is whether that machin- 
 ery shall be still further utilized and given wider activity than it 
 already enjoys, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. It was to that question that I was addressing myself 
 when I made that remark. You asked how I could prove that this 
 would be a subsidizing of one business. I can not prove it to the 
 extent of giving facts and figures, because there are no facts and 
 figures to give. The experiment has not actually been tried as yet. 
 
 The Chairman. It has been made to the extent of 4 pounds at 1 
 cent an ounce postage. That is in operation now. Would you 
 kindly demonstrate to the committee what injury — that is, concrete 
 injury — has come to any class of our society or citizens through the 
 operation of that privilege ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. In my opinion, that privilege so far has already been 
 a source of considerable injury, but what it has done with the 4-pound 
 package is not to be considered in the same class with what it would 
 do with an 11 or a 12 pound package. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly demonstrate the injury that has 
 been accomplished under the 4 pound weight limit ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I can only give you the illustration such as I men- 
 tioned awhile ago of a lot of stuff which had been bought of Mont- 
 gomery Ward & Co., which might otherwise have been bought from 
 some other merchant. I can not give you the number of those inci- 
 dents which have occurred, but I have enough information to believe 
 that they occur very frequently and in very considerable quantities. 
 
 The Chairman. We have testimony before the committee to this 
 effect; that the volume of business of the catalogue and mail-order 
 houses in Chicago amounts to SI 20,000,000 annually. We have tes- 
 timony before the committee to the effect that in weight less than 2 
 per cent of the business of the mail-order and catalogue houses in 
 Chicago is carried through fourth class mail. In value, we have 
 testimony before the committee that 8 per cent of the business of 
 Montgomery Ward & Co. of Chicago was carried last year in fourth- 
 class matter, and 10 per cent by express and 82 per cent by freight; 
 but less than 2 per cent in weight of the business, so far as the com- 
 mittee has been able to collate its information, is represented under 
 
 21845^vol 4—12 16 
 
1114 PABCEL POST. 
 
 existing conditions, 4 pounds weight limit and 1 cent an ounce post- 
 age under the fourth-class mail privilege, of the total volume of busi- 
 ness conducted by the mail-order houses. Now, I do not see where 
 that is an appreciable competition at all with the vast volume of 
 business conducted by the retailer, the wholesale merchants, and the 
 manufacturers of this country. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. The figures which you give would demonstrate that 
 a very small proportion of the business done by these people is being 
 carried by the postal facilities. The object now is to make arrange- 
 ments by which a much larger volume of business would be carried 
 by the postal facilities, and the injury which now is comparatively 
 small will grow in a very large proportion. It is like carrying water 
 in a pipe line. A pipe 8 inches in diameter will carry more than 
 twice as much as a pipe 6 inches in diameter. 
 
 The Chairman. Surely, if you had the only outlet from the reser- 
 voir, but if there are numerous other and very much larger outlets, 
 why then you do not get proportionately so much of the water. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. The outlet from the reservoir does not make any 
 difference if you keep the pipe full higher up. 
 
 The Chairman. But it makes a difference if you have other pipes 
 higher up to draw the water from the reservoir, and the more pres- 
 sure that you have from your own 
 
 Mr. Caskie. That brings us back to the question whether there 
 will be other pipes to draw from, or whether or not the rate and facility 
 for transportation and rapidity with which it is transported will not 
 put this pipe higher up in the reservoir than the other pipes which 
 are fed by it. My own judgment is that when you begin to carry 
 your larger packages and have your rural free-delivery man deliver 
 them around to all the houses in the country you will find that 
 that will very largely increase the amount of this business, and unless 
 there is not to be an increase of the parcel post tnere would be no 
 desire to have this bill passed. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, you would have for your competition, as far 
 as transportation is concerned, your enlargement of your weight 
 limit and your decrease in your postage, with no contemplation what- 
 ever of going into competition with the freight rates of the country. 
 You would simply be brought into competition with the express 
 companies. Now, through the express companiesprobably 300,000,000 
 packages were carried last year. You would only come into compe- 
 tition with the transportation of those packages that would come 
 under the contemplated weight limit to be established, 11 pounds, 
 which, under the information submitted to the committee, would be 
 about 90,000,000 pieces of merchandise now handled by all the express 
 companies in the United States within that weight limit. Sothat 
 your study comes down to that possible increase, provided you 
 absorb all the express business of the country now carried by express 
 under 11 pounds. We carry now, in round figures, about 145,000,000 
 pieces of fourth-class mail matter. All we could possibly expect to 
 increase, if we had legislation either for a reduction in rate or legisla- 
 tion for the establishment of a monopoly, would be by the absorp- 
 tion of 90,000,000 more pieces of fourth-class mail matter. Do you 
 suppose that would seriously affect the business of the country 
 merchant, of the retailers and the wholesalers, and the manufacturers 
 and the jobbers, as well as the traveling men? 
 
PARCEL POST. 1115 
 
 Mr. Caskie. It would depend entirely upon what those 90,000,000 
 pieces contained and their actual value. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you come back to this figure. You have the 
 information that the mail-order and catalogue houses of Chicago, doing 
 the bulk of that business in the United States, handled a total of 
 $120,000,000 gross last year of the business. You have the informa- 
 tion that less than 2 per cent of that in weight, about 8 per cent in one 
 house, Montgomery Ward & Co., in value, is handled now through the 
 fourth-class mail privilege. It seems to me that the country merchant 
 is very needlessly alarmed, when you have these figures and facts 
 before you, and you have got the limit of the business under the es- 
 tablishment of an increased weight limit to 11 pounds and a decrease 
 in postage, as knocked down to the competitive basis with the 
 freight rate. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I do not believe there is any such thing as a limit to the 
 possibihties of the business energy and enterprise of the country, and, 
 so far as any question is concerned, whatever may exist to-day will 
 be a mere bagatelle if proper facilities are given five years from 
 now, or two years from now, or even one year from now. I stated that 
 I believed that it was not a proper function of the Government. We 
 believe that it would interfere with, if not practically destroy, many 
 of the jobbing houses and a large number of the retail stores, and that 
 I did not believe that it would be as good for the consumer as he sup- 
 posed. My reasons for that are as follows: As I said a while ago, nat- 
 ural conditions brought about the present commercial system of the 
 country. The desire for the consumer to see the goods, for him to 
 have an opportunity to examine them, was one of the things which 
 enabled the retailer to sell to him. 
 
 The Chairman. That desire will continue, will it not ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. That desire will continue; but you undertake to 
 throttle the desire by making it more attractive in some other 
 direction. 
 
 The Chairman. How more attractive, if the freight rate is the 
 determinate factor in the volume of business transacted ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I will answer that by using an illustration. One of 
 the gentlemen with us here is in the wholesale hardware business. 
 He does not buy, so I am informed, any shears which could be sold 
 by the retailer for less than 25 cents a pair. The reason that he does 
 not is because he knows that there is no use of anybody buying a 
 cheaper pair of shears than that. The mail-order houses sell a pair 
 of shears at about 15 or 16 cents, and very much inferior to that, 
 but it is sold by a picture in a catalogue, and no man can look at a 
 picture in a catalogue and tell the difference between that shear and 
 the very best shear that is made. 
 
 The Chairman. He has got to learn by experience. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. He has to learn by experience, and you are giving the 
 mail-order house the benefit of teaching him at considerable profit to 
 the mail-order house. 
 
 The Chairman. He is able to do that to-day under existing con- 
 ditions. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Yes; and the more you simplify the opportunity of the 
 rnail-order house to carry on its business with governmental aid, the 
 more opportunity you give to the mail-order house to do that class of 
 business. I do not believe that the consumer will be materially 
 
1116 PARCEL POST. 
 
 advantaged; on the contrary, Ithink he would be disadvantaged by- 
 taking away the retail country store. 
 
 The Chairman. I agree with you on that, but I do not see where 
 you are taking it away. You are predicating your statement on an 
 assumption which you can not corroborate by a demonstration. 
 That is the point. Many of the gentlemen who have appeared before 
 this committee have said that we were going to destroy the country 
 merchant. There is no desire on the part of any member of the 
 committee, any Member of Congress, or of anyone who has appeared 
 before the committee, to destroy the country merchant. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I take it for granted that the mail-order house would 
 like to destroy anybody who would come in competition with their 
 business. 
 
 The Chairman. But their ability to destroy, if they are destroy- 
 ing, with the competition that the evidence before the committee has 
 demonstrated exists to-day, is infinitesimal as compared with the vast 
 volume of business done with the merchants and the jobbers over 
 the L'nited States as a whole, and it is predicated, according to your 
 own statement, upon the peculiarity of human nature that they are 
 willing to take a shear which is advertised for 15 cents appearing in 
 a catalogue in preference to a shear that they see themselves and 
 they have to pay 25 cents for. Is not the catalogue itself the main 
 cause of this infringement, if you so term it, on the part of the mail- 
 order house upon the volume of business heretofore conducted 
 through the retail merchants ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. The catalogue is a very decided factor, unquestionably. 
 
 The Chairman. And is it not the ability of the consumer to get a 
 much cheaper rate, or assume that he is -getting a much cheaper 
 rate by enjoying the minimum rate on thVbasis of 100 pounds or 
 250 pounds for a single article by assembling, either himself through 
 his own family or his neighbors, an aggregate of purchases sufficiently 
 to enjoy the minimum rate ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I do not understand that question. 
 
 The Chairman. I mean the minimum rate of freight. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I do not understand that the assembling of pur- 
 chases of any number of people in the community would help them 
 to get a minimum rate under the postal regulations. 
 
 The Chairman. I am speaking now of freight. I was not speaking 
 of postal regulations. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Where there is assembling for the purpose of getting 
 a minimum rate of freight, the instances are so seldom in the com- 
 munity a minimum rate would probably apply only to a carload. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I have mentioned specifically the minimum 
 rate on the 100-pound basis or up to 250 pounds. In other words, 
 that the rate is the same for 1 pound as it is for 250 pounds in 
 some cases. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. The difficulty of a rural population making up any- 
 thing like that is so great that it hardly ever happens. 
 
 The Chairman. I think you will find on investigation that the bulk 
 of the business is transacted in that way. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. How? 
 
 The Chairman. With the mail-order house by assembling. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. You mean the mail-order houses. I thought you were 
 talking about purchasing from the — — 
 
PARCEL POST. 1117 
 
 The Chairman. I was talking about the mail-order house and the 
 advantage of the mail-order house over the country merchant; how 
 they were able to compete successfully with the country merchant and 
 absorb this business, which you think belongs primarily to the country 
 merchant. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. The people may now combine together and a mail- 
 order house may be able to get a minimum rate of freight, but when 
 that freight is delivered by the mail-order house it is delivered at a 
 railroad station. Under the proposed arrangement the mail-order 
 house would have the freight delivered at the house of the individual 
 by the rural free-delivery carrier. 
 
 The Chairman. But it would cost them a good deal more in units 
 than it did where they were assembled and they were enabled to enjoy 
 a freight rate. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. That would depend upon circumstances. If all of the 
 people who were engaged in getting a carload lived immediately at 
 the depot 
 
 The Chairman. We were not taking a carload for illustration, but 
 from 100 pounds to 250 pounds. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. If all the people getting 100 pounds lived at the depot 
 or very close to it that might be true, but if they lived some distance 
 away and they had to send for it with a wagon and team, and then 
 carry it to some given point and divide it up and distribute it, and 
 each man come after his part of it, the probabilities are that the cost, 
 certainly in time and effort, would be more than the cost if it were 
 brought by the United States Government and delivered at his door 
 without the trouble of entering into any combination with individuals 
 or having to send to any depot to s;et it. 
 
 The Chairman. The cost would be the determinate factor with 
 the individual, would it not ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Frequently so. I think the cost and facility with 
 which he would get it would enter in. To get his matter by freight, 
 certainly if it comes over some of the railroads that we have in 
 Lynchburg, is a matter of considerable time. To get it by the United 
 States mail is about the quickest means of transportation that we 
 know anything about. 
 
 The Chairman. The only three opportunities you have in Lynch- 
 burg would be to get it by freight, by express, or by United States 
 mail ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. That is all. I also think that the cost of the delivery 
 to the Government would be materially increased, because there 
 would have to be a very large increase in the facilities of the rural 
 mail carrier. In the particular section of the country in which I am 
 acquainted very much, the larger part of the year every one of the 
 mail carriers I know travel on horseback. In the better weather, 
 when the roads are good, a good many of them use buggies or spring 
 wagons; but some travel by horseback all the year. If you had 
 
 Jour merchandise distributed by mail, every one of these men would 
 ave to have some provision for hauling, and there would be an 
 increase; he would certainly have to have a vehicle, and in many cases 
 he would have to have two horses instead of one, and there would be 
 a very decided increase in the cost of maintaining the present rural- 
 route system, in my judgment. 
 
1118 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. How many rural routes are you familiar with in 
 your locality ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I should say a dozen. 
 
 The Chairman. There are 42,000, in round numbers, in the United 
 States. The information that has been submitted to the committee 
 by those who are assumed to be best posted, and undoubtedly are, 
 is to the effect that about 100 of those rural routes are now working 
 at the full peak of their efficiency — the full load. Any increase in 
 the load would necessitate an increase in the transportation facility 
 on those 100 routes. The balance of them are probably not operat- 
 ing at 25 per cent, or one-quarter of what they could carry with 
 their present facilities; so that from a business standpoint, eliminat- 
 ing your fundamental question of the governmental competition with 
 private enterprise, there is a waste to the Government in that par- 
 ticular branch, or ,an apparent waste, which, if it was operated by a 
 private enterprise, the effort would be toward taking that up and 
 getting additional business for that particular branch, would it not ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I do not know what the various mail carriers are doing 
 in the matter of availing themselves of all their opportunities for carry- 
 ing mail, but I will wager my ears that if this tiling is put on there 
 will be a hue and cry for an additional increased allowance for all the 
 increased amount of business which they expect to do, and I would 
 be willing to make some very good wager that they would succeed 
 in getting some allowance; that it would be regarded as a just 
 demand and an increased allowance would be made almost over the 
 whole country. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not see that that has any particular bearing 
 upon the question that we have under consideration. That is a 
 matter that would have to be acted upon by Congress if the demand 
 came. The result of the action of Congress would be dependent upon 
 the ability of the people making the demand to demonstrate the 
 justice of the demand. It comes to my mind this way: If a rural 
 carrier who has a team is carrying 25 pounds, and with that team 
 he is able to carry with ease over the route that he operates over up 
 to 500 pounds without any appreciable strain upon the horse or 
 upon the wagon, I do not see where the justice of his demand would 
 come for an increased compensation, provided the compensation 
 paid was commensurate with the service performed in the duty. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Theoretically, that is undoubtedly true; practically, 
 whenever an additional burden of any sort is put on any person paid 
 out of the Public Treasury, there is an application for an increase of 
 pay, so far as my observation goes. 
 
 The Chairman. The activity of the Government is increasing all 
 the time; the duties upon the employees are increasing as the Govern- 
 ment develops and as the activities of the Government enlarge. The 
 determination, as I say, is with Congress, dependent upon the abihty 
 of the individuals making the demand to demonstrate the justice of 
 their claim. Senator Bryan, have you any questions ? 
 
 Senator Bryan. No, Mr. Chairman. I have been out of the room 
 a part of the time, and I have no questions to ask. 
 
 The Chairman. Senator Swanson, have you any questions to ask? 
 
 Senator Swanson. Mr. Caskie, to what extent now would the 
 merchants, retail and otherwise, in Lynchburg be hurt by extending 
 
PARCEL POST. 1119 
 
 to the rural delivery routes the privilege of carrying packages as 
 parcel post for a mere nominal sum applied to packages that origi- 
 nate and end on the route ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Originate and end on what route? 
 
 Senator Swanson. On the rural delivery route. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I do not understand. There are very few packages 
 that could originate on the rural delivery route, because the trade of 
 Lynchburg is largely in Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, 
 Georgia, and Florida, and I believe some of it in Texas and Louisiana. 
 
 Senator Swanson. I am not speaking of the wholesale merchants. 
 Take the little merchants in Lynchburg. They have customers in 
 the country. Now, with a mere nominal sum, costing a great deal 
 less than any parcel post of the mail-order house, how would they 
 be injured; would not they be benefited if they had the privilege of 
 sending to their customers and their customers sending to them any- 
 thing that they wished to exchange at a mere nominal rate ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I should suppose that the retail store in Lynchburg 
 would find it very convenient to send such packages that it had for 
 its customers living on the rural free-delivery routes to them by 
 mail, but that would be almost nothing, because there are very few 
 rural delivery routes going out from the city of Lynchburg. I do 
 not now recall but two — there may be three or four — and they go to 
 territory that would not carry very much of that sort of mail. For 
 instance, there is a rural free-delivery route going out through the 
 Rivermount section, and there is a street-car line going to the iiiver- 
 mount section, and those people all come in town nearly every day. 
 They would get very little advantage out of the proposed exchange. 
 Between the end of the street-car line and Boonsboro, where the 
 route ends, there is a very sparsely settled country, and there would 
 be very little, if anything, to be carried in that way. To the extent 
 that that existed they would get some benefit. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Well, take a small town like Campbells Court- 
 house, or Houston, or any depot on the line of the railroad from 
 which about three rural delivery routes emanate. Now, a mere 
 nominal sum to accommodate the people on that line and give them 
 the privilege of saying that where the package originates and ends on 
 the route there shall be a certain postage, a very small postage, to 
 what extent would that hurt the country merchant ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. It certainly would not hurt the country merchant at 
 the end of the route where he could communicate with the people 
 outside and probably sell them some little stuff that the country 
 merchant would sell them. For instance, you mentioned Campbells 
 Courthouse. A man living there might occasionally make a sale to 
 somebody who would otherwise buy it from the near-by store, and 
 While it would be a slight advantage to the man at Campbells Court- 
 house it would be a disadvantage to the man at the other point. I 
 should not think it would amount to anything at all. 
 
 Senator Swanson. The other store would have the same privilege 
 as a store at Campbells Courthouse of selling his customer a package, 
 
 Sutting a little stamp of a very small amount on it, and having it 
 elivered to the customer by the carrier who passes by. How would 
 that country merchant be injured if that rate is one-third less than 
 any mail-order house has ? 
 
1120 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Cask J e. lhat country merchant would not be injured, but the 
 country merchant who would have otherwise sold that would be 
 injured. 
 
 Senator Swanson. I do not know any store that the rural delivery 
 carrier does not pass by, and he would have the same privilege as 
 anyone on the route where the package originates. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Ihe theory, as I understand it, is to make the rural 
 delivery carrier the delivery boy for the country merchant. 
 
 Senator Swanson. At present he simply delivers mail and does not 
 deliver packages on the route. Ihe Government pays nothing to 
 the carrier for carrying packages on the route, no such packages being 
 carried. Ihey would not have to pay anything additional for that 
 service, and everything that was carried on the rural route would be 
 an additional advantage to the Government, and why would not a 
 country merchant be benefited by a very small rate like that ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. 'Ihe present law permits 4 pounds to be carried that 
 way, I believe. As a matter of fact, so far as the country with which 
 I am familiar is concerned, that does not amount to anything at all. 
 Occasionally a woman who breaks a sewing-machine needle will ask 
 the mail carrier to bring her one next day from the store, or if a box 
 of matches gets out they will ask the carrier to bring matches out 
 with hint, but that is about all of it. No man sends through the 
 mail for a can of kerosene or anything of that sort. 
 
 Senator Swanson. 'Ihe present price is so high it is very difficult 
 to utilize it for that purpose, but suppose there was a mere nominal 
 rate of half a cent or 1 cent on packages that originate on a rural 
 delivery route, do you not think that would be utilized to a great 
 advantage to the country merchant ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Possibly the best answer is that there is not a country 
 merchant that I know of who would favor that. He does not regard 
 that as a matter of any concern to him at all, because the country 
 merchant's patronage is limited to the people in his immediate vicin- 
 ity, and those people have their post office up there where the store 
 is; they have their church nearby, as a general rule; they have the 
 
 fmblic schools all around there, and the facilities in the neighborhood 
 or communicating with the country store are already sufficiently 
 great not to make it a matter of any very serious concern that some- 
 body probably should bring them something at a regular hour every 
 day. There are very few country houses now that have not some 
 means of communicating with the store during the day some time. 
 
 Senator Swanson. These rural routes average about 19 or 20 miles 
 and they serve the farmers from place to place, and with the present 
 telephone system over the entire country the farmers, or the cus- 
 tomers, can easily telephone to the merchant that they want a pack- 
 age, and the merchant can take that package and for a half a cent or 
 a quarter of a cent, or whatever the rate may be, he can put his stamp 
 on the package, and it will be carried to the consumer's doer. Now, 
 would not that be advantageous to the country merchant instead of 
 acting as a disadvantage ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. If the mail was delivered at a certain hour of the day, 
 the farner or the consumer could telephone in and ask the merchant 
 to send the package out to him by mail, but if it was any time after 
 the delivery of the mail, after the time that that mail carrier passed, 
 
PARCEL POST. 1121 
 
 it certainly would not do him any good until the next day, for he 
 would have to wait until the next day for the delivery. 
 
 Senator Swanson. These routes all have certain hours for the car- 
 rier to leave and certain hours for return, and there are certain minutes 
 when the carrier passes the regular boxes ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. A regular time table, as it were, but they seldom live 
 up to it. 
 
 Senator Swanson. I have been unable to ascertain how the country 
 merchant would be injured by the extension of the fourth-class mail 
 matter over the rural delivery routes, and it seems to me it would 
 
 five him an advantage over a general parcel post all over the United 
 tates. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. If you propose to limit that to packages originating 
 on the rural free delivery route, as I say, I do not think it would 
 amount to anything one way or the other; I do not think it would be 
 a special benefit or special injury to anybody. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Now, my idea is this: In the village I live in, 
 Chatham, I think there are four routes going out from that village, 
 and each route serves about 20 miles from that point. Now, it 
 seems to me that these retail merchants would have an advantage if 
 they could have a privilege there for a mere nominal sum, a great 
 deal less than any unlimited parcel post all over the country. Instead 
 of being hurt they would be really benefited by the extension of 
 the parcel post on the rural delivery routes. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. If you limit it to parcels originating on the routes, 
 there are doubtless communities in which it would be an advantage. 
 With the communities with which I am familiar I do not think it 
 would amount to anything, but when you have a flat rate, which 
 permits that package to come from Chicago or New York or from 
 anywhere else in the United States to the man on the rural routes, 
 then you injure the merchant in that locality very seriously. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Your contention is, which is a proper one, the 
 Government has no right to sustain a loss in carrying packages which 
 all the people pay taxes for to the benefit of the merchants who live 
 hundreds of miles from their customers? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Swanson. That is, taxing all the people to give a special 
 privilege to people engaged in a particular business ? _ 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Yes, sir; you certainly haven't a right to do it at a 
 loss, and I do not think you have a right to do it at all. I do not 
 think the Government ought to take part in the business of private 
 enterprises throughout the country. 
 
 Senator Swanson. You say the rural free delivery has this advan- 
 tage over' other routes that it is contemplated to send parcels: If you 
 send a parcel from Lynchburg to Danville or from Danville to Chat- 
 ham, you have to pay the railroads so much per pound for hauling it. 
 On a package originating on a rural route and which is delivered 
 there the Government has no initial expenses whatever. It is en- 
 tirely profit to the Government to send packages of that kind, and 
 the Government can therefore afford to send packages over the rural 
 routes for a very nominal sum. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I do not approve that, because I think the Govern- 
 ment is favoring one branch of business as against another; but that 
 is the least objectionable form of it, unquestionably, and your premise 
 
1122 PARCEL POST. 
 
 is entirely correct, provided you do not have to make any additional 
 arrangement for tire rural free delivery men. If they get no more 
 pay and can do it at the same cost to the Government, then of course 
 what the Government would get from that source is unmistakably 
 profit. As I said just now, I do not know of any rural free delivery 
 men, as long as you are adding to their labor, who will not want more 
 pay. 
 
 Senator Swanson. The problem of increasing their compensation 
 to a fair price now, is the fact that the Rural Free Delivery Service is 
 run at a loss. We have those 42,000 men going out each day at a 
 loss to the Government, and the country people are utterly unable to 
 get any express facilities, and these 42,000 men could very easily, to a 
 limited amount, deliver these parcels, pro and con, on the route, 
 without any additional expense to the Government whatever. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. That is true where it originates there. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Now, if the country merchant and retail mer- 
 chants and other merchants had the privilege, and the Government 
 was making a profit on it, of having these deliveries for about one- 
 third or one-fourth of what other people had to pay at a distance, and 
 still the Government made money, would not that be an advantage 
 instead of a disadvantage to them ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. No, sir. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Why would it be a disadvantage ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. There would possibly be a small advantage to a few 
 country dealers, but the disadvantages would be those which I have 
 mentioned before. First of all, you would put the manufacturer in 
 New England where he could deliver his goods to the man in Texas 
 as cheap as the man who had a factory in Texas. 
 
 The Chairman. That is on the basis of a flat rate ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. That is on the basis of a flat rate; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose you had a zone system? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I do not know exactly. That would depend largely 
 upon what your zone was, but if you made it a system by which the 
 distance was to regulate the charge, that would perhaps fee a correct 
 solution, if that was practicable. I have not gone sufficiently into 
 details to say that, but it seems to me if you are going to regulate 
 charges it ought to be done in accordance with the distance. As 
 I said in the first part of my testimony, the whole tendency to 
 establish enterprises and manufacturers in the South and West would 
 be largely relieved because of any freight rates. We would not be 
 able to deliver goods any cheaper to the customer than the man in 
 Maine, Boston, Chicago, or elsewhere, if you have a flat rate. 
 
 S3nator Swanson. A flat rate would simply result in the Govern- 
 ment doing all business on which there was a loss and the express 
 companies doing all the business on which there was a profit. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Undoubtedly the express companies would carry the 
 business as far as possible and then let the post office do the rest. 
 
 Senator Swanson. But a rate based on all of it at a profit to the 
 Government would put the merchant in any community at an advan- 
 tage over the merchant at a distance, and still the Government would 
 be making money ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Yes; if you limit it to the packages originating on the 
 rural free-delivery routes —in other words, if you limit it to where 
 there was no express facility. But as soon as you open up the door 
 
PAKCEL POST. 1123 
 
 by which you would give to the mail-order house an advantage, you 
 are giving a corresponding disadvantage to the retailer, without a 
 material benefit, in my judgment, to the consumer, because if you 
 take away the heavy stuff which the mail-order houses now send by 
 mail the -merchant who now furnished that, being deprived of the 
 profit which he makes on the other class of goods, would probably 
 have to go out of business and could not handle that heavy stuff for 
 the consumer. Therefore the consumer would lose the advantage of 
 having the merchant handle the heavy stuff and would be at the 
 mercy of the mail-order house, certainly for one or two orders, because 
 you send the money and take the chances, so far as that is concerned, 
 and we know there are enough fake houses to put up a job on anybody, 
 and there are, in fact, no end of them. 
 
 Senator Swanson. The advantage would accrue to the farming 
 community in connection with sending their produce to the country 
 merchant, say 3 or 4 pounds of butter, or eggs, whereas other- 
 wise he would have to take a trip, thereby taking him a half a day 
 from his work. If this rate, not a flat rate, but a mere increasing 
 rate at a profit to the Government, was established, do you see where 
 the rural communities could be hurt over the extension of it over the 
 rural delivery ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I think if the Government wants to provide the 
 farmer with that means of dehvery, a boy or a man to carry his 
 produce up to the country merchant once every day, it would be an 
 advantage to the farmer, a convenience to him, to have that boy 
 or man to take his produce to the merchant, but as a matter of fact, 
 and as the actual practical experience shows, when a man goes to a 
 store with his merchandise he carries it there for the purpose of 
 trading it off for something else, and he is not going to intrust the 
 trade and selection of what he wants to the decision of the man who 
 carries his produce or his merchandise to the merchant. In other 
 words, he wants the privilege of seeing what he is going to get. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Could not that largely be done with butter 
 and eggs, and could not the merchant accumulate the farmer's prod- 
 uce and send out to the consumer sugar or something of that kind 
 on the rural route? Would it not work to advantage to both the 
 merchant and the farmer of the rural delivery route ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I do not see that it would, because, in the first place, 
 if ypu were accumulating and sending produce to the merchant 
 there would be all the more reason 
 
 Senator Swanson. Suppose the produce accumulated with the 
 country merchant ? He would accumulate what he could get every 
 three or four days. It would cost him very little to do that ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Yes, but the people who sent those things sometimes 
 would want their necessities very quickly. 
 
 ' Senator Swanson. Then if the necessities are so urgent, they 
 ought to have a prompt delivery to send him his needs. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Then probably you should give him three deliveries a 
 day instead of one ? 
 
 Senator Swanson. I believe in the country getting three a day, 
 like they do in the city, if it pays. In some portions of New York 
 they deliver mail eight times a day because it pays the Government 
 to do it. «<• 
 
 " IT. 
 
1124 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. That is the delivery of mail, in which business nobody 
 else is engaged? 
 
 Senator Swanson. It -is also done with regard to packages, under 
 the fourth-class mail privilege. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. And as you explained it, the Government is also 
 engaged in the transportation business, rather than in the mail busi- 
 ness. 
 
 Senator Swanson. The carrying of packages, as I stated, is a mail 
 privilege. I realize fully the importance of protecting the country 
 merchant, but I have not been able to see how he is going to be hurt 
 by the extension of the parcel-delivery system over the rural delivery 
 routes. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I do not know how many country merchants there 
 are in Virginia, but, in my judgment, two-thirds of the country mer- 
 chants will be put out of business by it, the other third will be mate- 
 rially hampered, and the jobber will be very considerably injured, 
 and that, I think, is the judgment of business people 1 have talked 
 with on that subject. 
 
 The Chairman. Who would be benefited? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. The mail-order houses. 
 
 The Chairman. They would get the sole benefit? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Practically the sole benefit. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Why would not the consumers divert their 
 trade in order to avail themselves of this increased facility that they 
 were getting a benefit from due to their participation ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Why would who divert their trade? 
 
 Senator Swanson. Why would the purchaser himself, the con- 
 sumer, patronize the mail-order house in preference to patronizing 
 his own merchant ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Because the advertisement he would get would 
 satisfy him, until he tried it, that he was getting the benefit, and a 
 great many of them would probably not know the difference. I 
 want to say this to the committee : I understand that we are limited 
 to two hours, and the time is nearly up, and there are some other 
 gentlemen here whom I would like very much to have an opportu- 
 nity to say something. Unless it is the desire of the committee to 
 ask some further questions I would like to have the committee give 
 the rest of the time to these other gentlemen. 
 
 Senator Swanson. I suppose any of the gentlemen who wish can 
 file written statements ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Senator Swanson. And they will subsequently be put into the 
 printed hearings ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; provided the statements are under oath. 
 
 Senator Swanson. So, if subsequently you desire to file a statement 
 covering these matters, Mr. Caskie, just make an oath to it and it will 
 be printed. 
 
 The Chairman. I will say if any supplementary statements are to 
 be filed we will need them within a week in order to make up the next 
 volume. The committee are greatly obliged to you gentlemen for 
 coming before it. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. I just want to make one further statement, Mr. Chair- 
 man; I am of the opinion if this extension is made 
 
 The Chairman. What extension ? 
 
PARCEL POST. 1125 
 
 Mr. Caskie. An extension raising the amount which is to be carried, 
 to any considerable amount. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, we will say 11 pounds. 
 
 Mr. Caskie. Well, say 11 pounds or 8 pounds, that it will be a great 
 means by which the whisky people can send their whisky into the dry 
 territory. That will be one of the things which it will do. So far as 
 the farmer getting his produce to town is concerned, it will not only 
 be a means which he will benefit by, but it will also be a means by 
 which the packing houses of the West, and all of that class of people 
 in the country, will come into competition with the farmer, because 
 they can send then eggs and meat and compete with the farmer. 
 
 The Chairman. The packing houses would not send their eggs and 
 meat to the farmer ? 
 
 Mr. Caskie. They send their meat and their cold-storage eggs to 
 the farmer's customers and it brings them in direct competition with 
 these farm products. That is all I have to say. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee are obliged to you. 
 
TESTIMONY OF MR. CHARLES G. CRADDOCK, OF LYNCHBURG, VA. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Craddock, it will be necessary that you be 
 sworn. 
 
 Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you state your age, residence, and present 
 occupation ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Forty-six years old; I am a resident of Lynch- 
 burg, Va.; occupation, merchant and manufacturer. 
 
 The Chairman. In your appearance before the committee do you 
 appear in any representative capacity, as representing any organi- 
 zations in your locality ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I came at the request of the chamber of commerce, 
 of which I am a member, but I also represent the interests of the firm 
 of which I am a director and of my 10,000 patrons and of the retail 
 merchants of the South. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not understand the latter. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I said I feel I am representing my firm and 10,000 
 retail merchants, and these 10,000 retail merchants we are doing 
 business with in the South, and I am prompted in coming here to 
 protect their interest as I see it. 
 
 The Chairman. You are not here appearing for the 10,000 mer- 
 chants by request from them or by correspondence with them ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Not appointed as an agent to represent them; 
 no, sir. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Suppose you state the concern you represent. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Craddock, Terry & Co., of Lynchburg, Va. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly give the committee the informa- 
 tion as to whether you are in favor of or opposed to the Government 
 increasing the present parcel-post activity as represented under the 
 fourth-class mail privilege now in existence ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I am opposed to it. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly give the committee the reasons 
 upon which you base your position ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I would like to state first, just briefly, why I am 
 familiar with the business of the retail merchant and why I believe 
 I can speak with perhaps more intimate knowledge of how it would 
 affect the retail merchant than a man who had not been so clrsely 
 associated with them. We manufacture shoes in Lynchburg and 
 sell them direct to the retailer, and we have about 10,000 customers; 
 about four-fifths of those customers are general stores located in 
 small towns and in the country. We sell some shoes in cities like 
 Washington, but about four-fifths of our business is done with the 
 country merchant and general-store merchant principally in the 
 South; south of tile Ohio and east of the Mississippi, although we 
 have some trade in other sections of the country. First, I want to 
 state that so far as my individual business is concerned, that the 
 country merchant is not charging the farmer more than the mer- 
 chandise is worth, and that unless the Government can transport the 
 1126 
 
PARCEL. POST. 1127 
 
 merchandise from the factory to the consumer at a less rate than 
 that at which the merchant gets it that the consumer will not be 
 benefited by the extension of the parcel pc st if they buy any shoes 
 by mail, and there is no evil here to be remedied on account of the 
 middleman, as he is termed, the retail merchant making a larger 
 profit than he is entitled to, and which any intelligent, fair-minded 
 farmer would believe he is entitled to if he knew the exact volume of 
 the business, the amount of the capital invested, the amount of time 
 given to the business, and the amount of profit at the end < f the year, 
 'ihe mail-order house will not and can not, so far as nvy line of mer- 
 chandise is concerned, send shoes at a price that will enable the farmer 
 to get his shoes for less money than he gets them to-day. 
 
 The Chairman. Even if the present scope of the fourth-class mail 
 matter were increased ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Even if it were increased. 
 
 The Chairman. It would not affect your business at all ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I think it would affect it, but I do not think the 
 farmer would get any better values than he gets now from the stores 
 he is purchasing them from. I think it would affect it for this reason: 
 The mail-order man sells his product by representation made by cuts 
 in catalogues or newspapers and printed descriptions. The consumer 
 selects from this printed description, written by an artist in his line, 
 
 Iwesenting the article with all the favorable aspects, perhaps not abso- 
 utely misleading, but calling attention to its advantages and none of 
 its disadvantages. 
 
 The Chairman. That is general in all advertising? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. That is true, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Whether in the newspapers, periodicals, or cata- 
 logues ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And in the salesman himself ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. No, sir. That is a point I was coming to. The 
 salesman himself shows him the shoe. 
 
 The Chairman. But he dwells upon the important features? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. But he has the advantage of seeing the article 
 before him which he is purchasing. We go back to the country mer- 
 chant. This mail-order man sends the consumer his catalogue, the 
 consumer looks it over and says, "That shoe looks better than the one 
 I bought down at the store for $2," and it will probably cost only 15 or 
 20 cents to send it by mail, and therefore he buys it. He sends his 
 money, the house sends the article, the purchaser gets that shoe. It 
 may neither fit nor be what he thought it was — I do not say it was 
 intentionally misrepresented — and the shoe may not be worth half in 
 intrinsic vaiue for what he would have had to pay to purchase a shoe' 
 from his own neighbor next door or near him, and it may not represent 
 as much value. The shoes bought through the mail-order houses 
 to-day by the farmer, or by anybody so far as that is concerned, do 
 not represent the value that they pay to their own country merchant. 
 Now, where is the recourse ? In one case he has no recourse. 
 
 The Chairman. In which case ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. In the case of the mail-order house. In talking to 
 Mr. Caskie, you made the statement a man ought to learn by expe- 
 rience and not buy again. Mr. Caskie very aptly replied chat was 
 true, but it was a costly experience and the mail-order house would 
 
1128 PARCEL POST. 
 
 profit by it, especially the dishonest man. And they have such a 
 field for increased business, they sell not only shoes, but all com- 
 modities, and I am frank to say to you that unless the Government 
 will transport this merchandise for less than anybody else and create 
 a saving in the transportation of the merchandise that the mail-order 
 house has no way of selling goods cheaper or of giving better values 
 than the merchant. I go further and say that the present system of 
 distribuing merchandise is the scientific and economical way. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, by mail and by express. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. For the large packages, having the lowest rate, by 
 freight. I think you made a statement, in talking to Mr. Caskie, 
 that the parcel-post system would not come into competition with 
 freight and the freight would carry a pound at this reduced rate ? 
 
 The Chairman. No; they charge the same rate on many articles for 
 1 pound as they do for 100 pounds, or they may charge for 250 pounds; 
 in fact, in one case I noticed in the tariiT schedule of rates one rate 
 as high for 1 pound as for 285 pounds. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. That was the minimum rate ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. But that is where you come in competition with 
 them. They have a minimum rate, and a man orders merchandise, 
 and it is so much less than the minimum weight that their minimum 
 charge would be less than the Government to send that by mail. 
 Therefore, you do come into competition with the freight. But 
 freight in large quantities is the legitimate way to handle merchandise, 
 because freight is the cheapest way for the merchant to handle it. 
 It is a slow way, but the cheapest way, and for that reason I say it is 
 the economical way for the distributor to get it in large quantities 
 and redistribute it, whether or not it be sent by the quick and ex- 
 
 Jensive methods in trying to do business direct with the consumer, 
 want to go back to the point of the responsibility. If a man orders 
 shoes from a mail-order house and finds they are not satisfactory he 
 has no recourse, but if he buys those shoes from his merchant and 
 they do not give satisfaction there is not a first-class retail merchant, 
 an honest one, who will not give him a new pair of shoes. Most of 
 them are honest, I am glad to say, and I think the retail merchants 
 of the South to-day probably owe us a million dollars, and we feel 
 perfectly confident we will get it, because they are honest men. We 
 have authorized the retail merchants if a shoe is defective in work- 
 manship or defective in leather, they are authorized to reimburse the 
 purchaser. In our business last year, as near as I can calculate, the 
 reimbursing of purchasers for defective shoes which went out without 
 coming under our observation cost us about $60,000. 
 
 The Chairman. What item is that ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Reimbursing the consumer for merchandise he got 
 hold of that was defective in material or workmanship, but which 
 defects did not come under our observation. Had those consumers 
 bought that $5,000,000 worth of merchandise from the mail-order 
 houses, the consumer would have stood the loss of the $60,000. 
 
 The Chairman. Instead of your standing it ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Yes, sir. Therefore I contend, in the first place, so 
 far as my business is concerned, that your proposition will not be a 
 direct benefit to the farmer or to the man other than the merchant 
 
PARCEL, POST. 1129 
 
 living in the country, whether he be a doctor, a preacher, or whatever 
 he might be. 
 
 The Chairman. That is because of your individual guarantee of 
 making good ? 
 
 Mr. Ckaddock. No, sir; that is not, so far as our business is con- 
 cerned; it is a custom among all manufacturers. We represent the 
 article as being thus and so, and the salesman represents it so to the 
 merchant and the merchant to the consumer. We do business on 
 credit; if a merchant is a man of good credit in his neighborhood, 
 we write and find out that he is an honorable man, and we extend him 
 credit. If these goods we ship him are not up to the standard, he 
 knows he can adjust it before he has paid for them. He sells largely 
 to the consumer on credit, the consumer knows that he is doing busi- 
 ness with Bill Jones, his friend, and if it is not right he can go back 
 and readjust it. With the mail-order house it is a cold-blooded propo- 
 sition, and if a complaint is registered with the large majority of the 
 mail-order houses I question very much whether that complaint would 
 be answered by them. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know as a matter of fact that is so — that a 
 letter of complaint would not be answered by them — or do you know 
 of any specific instances where your neighbors have bought from mail- 
 order houses and found their articles did not come up to the repre- 
 sentation and have asked to have the money returned and the mail 
 houses declined to return the money, or is this simply an inference ? 
 
 Mr. Craddook. Are you asking me to state hearsay, or what people 
 told me, or of actual experience ? 
 
 The Chairman. Your own personal experience and then any expe- 
 rience that your friends may have told you. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I never bought any goods from mail-order houses. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, from the experience of an individual whose 
 statement of facts you are satisfied with. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Yes; I did. The other day I was speaking to a 
 man, and we were discussing the question of advertising — how unfor- 
 tunate it was that papers run by honest men would allow dishonest 
 advertising in the paper. He went on to tell me some of the papers 
 published by high-toned and honorable men would not take adver- 
 tisements unless they were from responsible people. I mentioned 
 one periodical publishing company of Philadelphia, the Ladies' Home 
 Journal. I think, in advertising in that journal you can rest assured 
 you are going to get whatever the advertisements say. He said, 
 "Oh, yes; I had a peculiar experience with that paper. I saw an 
 advertisement for solid-silver spoons at a low price ; my wife sent the 
 money on, and after she got them she said the spoons were not solid 
 silver. She took them to a jeweler, who said that they are not, and he 
 made the suggestion to my wife to write to the man she got them 
 from; she did so, but the advertiser paid no attention to her letter. 
 Then she took it -up with the Ladies' Home Journal, and they reim- 
 bursed her, and in the next issue of the paper they exposed this man." 
 Right there, I want to divert for a moment, and say, if you could 
 protect the consumer from the dishonest mail-order houses, if the 
 united States Government could clarify its mail and send only 
 periodicals through the mail that told the truth about what they were 
 selling, then there would not be so much against your proposition. 
 
 21845— vol 4—12 17 
 
1130 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Don't you think that the machinery is already in 
 existence to rectify a case like you have mentioned, that the Depart- 
 ment of Justice would act in a matter of that kind ? 
 
 Mr. Ceaddock. Do you think a woman in the country ordering $2 
 worth of spoons would take a matter of that kind up with the depart- 
 ment to adjust it, or would she say to herself, " I am cheated this time; 
 I will merely drop the matter." 
 
 The Chairman. You have the remedy. We are not going to 
 create laws that are going to give protection other than to the general 
 welfare of a community as a whole. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I think you can. Here is a class of publications 
 I want to call your attention to. You are speaking of having inves r 
 tigated the mail-order proposition and you spoke about Montgomery 
 Ward & Co. They are high-class mail-order people. 
 
 The Chairman. Pardon me, no statement has been made that we 
 investigated anyone- 
 Mr. Craddock. I beg your pardon. I understood you had cer- 
 tain information about the business of Montgomery Ward & Co. 
 
 The Chairman. Their representative has been before the com- 
 mittee. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. T want to say that Montgomery Ward & Co. are 
 as high-toned and as honorable a house as I know anything about ; 
 they do business on square principles and I do not believe they would 
 misrepresent anything, and I know there are others of the same char- 
 acter. But I do not believe you gentlemen here in investigating this 
 matter have gone to the bottom of it. Here is a class of papers I 
 would like to ask the Senators present if any of them ever saw them 
 and read them. Here is one, for instance, the Comfort magazine, 
 published in Maine. 
 
 The Chairman. I can say I never have seen it. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Senator Swanson, did you ever sec the Saturday 
 Blade, published in Chicago ? 
 
 Senator Swanson. No; I never saw any one of them. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Did you ever see the Happy Home, published in 
 Augusta, Me. ? 
 
 Senator Swanson. Xo. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Well, these papers generally are known as the 
 mail-order mediums. If you have a directory of legitimate adver- 
 tising mentioned, you will find every paper put under its name, "mail- 
 order mediums" indicating that the majority of the mail-order busi- 
 ness done in this country comes from orders through these papers. 
 I have not time !> prepare myself a full statement, but in coming 
 before gentlemen >,ho have '{iven this matter the thought you have, 
 I figured that there was some angle in this business that you had not 
 investigated, otheiwise you could not favor an increase of your parcel- 
 post system. I am sincere in that. That publication, which you 
 carried last year, or this character of publication the United States 
 Government carried to the people of the United States, was at a loss 
 of nearly $70,000,000, so the Postmaster General says. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean second-class mail matter I 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Yes. This does not state all of it, but I will con- 
 vince you it constitutes a great deal of it. In carrying it at a loss, 
 you subsidize them at the rate of $70,000,000 a year, or in the last 
 10 years $600,000,000. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1131 
 
 ■ The Chairman. Well, that is a pretty strong arraignment you are 
 making, and all of us have not been here 10 years or on the Com- 
 mittee on Post Offices and Post Roads for that length of time, but 
 we want all the information you can give us. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I want to say you sent that paper out and your 
 excuse for carrying second-class mail matter for less than it cost the 
 Government, $70,000,000, is that you do it for educational features, 
 because it helps the country people, because it educates them. If 
 either of the three Senators here wdl read over these papers and tell me 
 they would allow them to go into their homes, if they do not corrupt 
 the morals of the people instead of helping them, I will say I will 
 withdraw my charge that you have subsidized them. Surely it does 
 not do any good to distribute the organ of the dishonest mail-order 
 houses that you have carried at an immense loss to the Government, 
 and the advertising alone sustains that paper, for that paper is sold 
 to the consumer at much less than it costs, and therefore the 
 advertising 
 
 The Chairman. Pardon the interruption. Did you appear before 
 the Commission on Second Class Mail Matter, which has the subject 
 under consideration ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. No; I never appeared before any committee of 
 any kind. 
 
 The Chairman. Congress is awaiting the return of a special finding 
 on that particular branch. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I am only taking this up from this particular 
 standpoint. I believe the Government is entitled to more money 
 for .carrying second-class matter, and am in favor of it. But I take 
 this up because I say that is not second-class, because that journal 
 is absolutely, purely and simply, the catalogue of the mail-order 
 houses. Now, here are the figures: I have taken the trouble to figure 
 out that for each advertising line, the space is sold by the line, and 
 there are 14 of those lines to the inch — this paper charges $5 for 
 every issue, $70 for an inch, $5,000 for a page. Figuring out the ad- 
 vertising that appears in that paper, the publisher received at the 
 flat rate — he might have reduced that rate to those people, and I do 
 not say he did not sell it for less -$94,395 for the advertising appear- 
 ing in that one issue. 
 
 The Chairman. What circulation has this paper ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I have a book in my pocket that gives it. I think 
 it is a million three hundred thousand, but there is one thing about 
 these journals which shows you the duplicity of them. There is one 
 that has a circulation of less than a million, and at the top it says, in 
 big headlines, "Over five million readers a week." lie probably gets 
 that by saying that five persons read each copy. But the sworn 
 statement, I won't state that authentically 
 
 The Chairman. If you have the information you can give us in 
 this connection, it will be interesting. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Here is the way it is listed; mail-order publica- 
 tions. 
 
 The Chairman. That one is named what ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Comfort. One million two hundred thousand. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Give us the circulation of the other you refer to. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Some of them do not give the circulation in this 
 
 book, which indicates that the publisher of the paper was unwilling to 
 
1132 PARCEL POST. 
 
 make a sworn statement and that the advertiser was unable to make 
 an estimate. 
 
 The Chairman. Is this a weekly paper, Comfort ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I do not know. I had my figures brought out, 
 that if it is a weekly paper the publisher received $4,703,440 for 
 advertising in that paper, and I can prove by any newspaper man in 
 the country that he loses money on his paper, and that all of his 
 advertisements in there are from mail-order people. As a matter of 
 fact that is a mail-order journal, and he as the editor is running it 
 for them. He gets for that paper 43 cents for a year's subscription 
 and he will give agents 60 per cent off for selling them ; therefore he gets 
 less than 53 cents for three years' subscription, and he would not get 
 that if the Government did not require him to show a paid circula- 
 tion, but he would give the agent all. As I understand it, the regu- 
 lations of the Post Oflice Department only allow him to give his 
 agents as much as 60 per cent, so there must be some paid subscription 
 in order to get it in the second-class rate. 
 
 The Chairman. But where are any of the big mail-order house 
 advertisements there ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. That is the point. I make. You have mentioned 
 only one of the large mail-order houses, which I think a fine high- 
 grade house. 
 
 The Chairman. What is that large house in Chicago — Sears, 
 Roebuck & Co. ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. They are next in size. I think I can find their 
 advertisement. You find in that John M. Smyth, the third largest 
 in Chicago, but I think he is better than the company he represents. 
 I believe if you figured out the actual cost of any goods advertised in 
 that book you would find you could purchase the same articles for 
 less money at a country store. 
 
 I happen to know a little about some of the fines in the mail-order 
 business. I saw an advertisement in here from a concern that does 
 not send merchandise by mail, but they advertise in this paper for 
 agents. They get the agent and he goes out and sells $10 worth of 
 merchandise. They give the agent a premium. I happen to know 
 a good deal about that class of business, having known people in it 
 who made a great deal of money. The $10 worth of merchandise the 
 people bought— they sell absolutely to the ignorant country people- 
 cost them $1.75, and they get $10 for it. The merchandise they 
 would have bought from the retail store, I will venture to say, would 
 have represented $6 worth of actual value, against $1.75 for the same 
 goods that he bought from this house. 
 
 The Chairman. How were these goods, which vou say cost $1.75, 
 brought to the individual? Through the mail? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I stated beforehand it was not brought through 
 the mail. They sold the merchandise through the mail, but did not 
 deliver it that way. The agent usually delivered his merchandise by 
 freight. I mention that as merely one instance of where I knew if 
 the merchant delivered those goods by mail the chances are the con- 
 sumer would have gotten less, because it would have cost the mer- 
 chant more money to deliver. 
 
 The Chairman. How long has this apparent system of obtaining 
 money under false pretenses existed ? 
 
PARCEL POST. 1133 
 
 Mr. Craddock. This paper, as near as I can learn, was started in 
 Augusta, Me., and goes back, I think, to soon after the war. 
 
 The Chairman. The country merchants are aware of this, are 
 they? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. That these papers exist ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; and that these conditions you have so 
 graphically described for the benefit of the committee exist? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Yes; I think they are. 
 
 The Chairman. Don't they educate their customers? Don't they 
 try to warn their customers about these conditions ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. They do. 
 
 The Chairman. Don't the customers, when they reahze that they 
 are being flim-flammed, and that they should not continue to go on 
 and pay $10 for $1.75 worth of goods — do they continue that 
 experience ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I will answer that in this way: I think I struck on 
 it just a little while ago. The fraudulent mail-order house — I do not 
 want to say they are all that way, because they are not, and I think 
 there are just as honorable people in the mail-order business as any 
 other — will figure out something on paper that will entice the money 
 from the unsuspecting ruralist and he tries it out in these papers. 
 He makes a success for a while and makes a great deal of money. I 
 know of one case in St. Louis where a man made about $800,000 in 
 three years, and he had just gotten to the point you speak of. It 
 was harder and harder to get orders, because more and more people 
 had tried his plan when it looked alluring, but this man changed his 
 plan, changed his line of merchandise, changed the name of the firm, 
 changed the name of the street address, and started right over again. 
 I did business with a mail-order house once in Chicago, had some 
 transaction with one of them. I went out to a man's place one day 
 and he showed me that he had three separate and distinct businesses 
 on a corner. He said, "On this corner I am on Fifty-fifth Street, and 
 therefore I advertise from that window Hall Manufacturing Co.," 
 we will say. That was not the name, however, but we will just 
 illustrate it, such and such a number, Fifty-fifth Street. "My other 
 window is on Madison Street; I advertise another large business, with 
 a picture of the whole building in each case." 
 
 The Chairman. But a different view of the building ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. A different view on Madison Street. Now there 
 is the case of how easy it is for them to change the name, change the 
 style of their business and keep going. I believe eventually that any 
 dishonest business will be found out and the dishonest man will 
 cease to prosper, but a careful investigation of the schemes in those 
 papers, if you just follow them up, would find them first nested in 
 the office buildings in the large cities. If you would follow them up 
 and calculate it, you would find millions and millions of dollars of 
 business done by them. You spoke of $130,000,000 of business being 
 done by. some mail-order houses in Chicago. 
 The Chairman. One hundred and twenty million. 
 Mr. Craddock. That is not a drop in the bucket. to the business 
 done by these people here, done by the dishonest mail-order man, 
 and the people are defrauded out of their money, and then they turn 
 around and try another scheme. Another proposition that has had 
 its run there, and a great many men made fortunes before it playe 
 
1134 PAECEL POST. 
 
 out, was to buy a little stick pin, which could be bought in Provi- 
 dence for about a quarter of a cent apiece. They advertised in a 
 paper if a little boy would go out and sell 20 at 10 cents apiece, or 
 .$2, they would give him a baseball, and if a little girl sold them, they 
 would give her a doll. They sold an immense amount of those pins. 
 
 The Chairman. What is your remedy for that ? That is dishonest 
 advertising, isn't it 1 
 
 Mr. Ceaddock. Well, to come down to brass tacks on this proposi- 
 tion, my theory on a parcel-post proposition, or going forward with 
 the Government increasing its facilities for doing business for the con- 
 sumer, doing business direct with what he supposes to be the manu- 
 facturer, is that you must first throw a safeguard around that man by 
 being able to keep out of the mail a dishonest statement ; and if you 
 do not do that, at least charge him what it costs you to assist him in 
 carrying out his business by distributing his literature. 
 
 The Chaieman. That is a matter entirely distinct from the matter 
 we have under consideration. 
 
 Mr. Ceaddock. If you will pardon me, I think when you spoke of 
 Montgomery Ward & Co.'s mail-order house, that your very state- 
 ment shows that they were not the people who were doing the most 
 harm, because only 8 per cent of their business is done by mail. If 
 you will pick out this man, or that one, or the majority of them here 
 and there, you will find the bulk of their business is done by mail. 
 
 The Chaieman. To-day? 
 
 Mr. Ceaddock. Yes. 
 
 The Chaieman. Their orders are filled by mail ? 
 
 Mr. Ceaddock. Yes; and this is the man we are trying to stop, 
 while you have been investigating a different sort of a man. I think 
 if you pass a bill here to handle larger amounts of merchandise 
 through the channel of the post office at less than it could be handled 
 by the express companies or other companies, given the same facili- 
 ties, I think it is class legislation. In talking to Mr. Caskie, you said 
 it is open to everybody to take advantage of it, but here is a point I 
 do not think you catch. It is not open to everybody. It is open to 
 everybody if they had mail-order customers, but Montgomery Ward 
 & Co. have been in business a long time and they started at a time 
 when there was actually a need and necessity for a mail-order business. 
 The western country was opening up rapidly, the ranch people went 
 out there, there were no country stores which they had to get their 
 supplies from, and Montgomery Ward & Co. opened up as a ranch-sup- 
 ply house ; the business has grown, and they do business all over the 
 world, even in China, and in all of the large cities. They have on their 
 books a clientele that will run up into the millions. Now, you say if 
 you offered to those people advantages, you are offering them to me; 
 but you are not, because I haven't any'mail-order customers, and I 
 can not take advantage of it. I have $2,000,000 invested in my 
 business; I work about 1,500 people in Lynchburg; I sell to 10,000 
 merchants, but I built up my business on a different plan, and I 
 could not take advantage of your offer if I went out of business and 
 wanted to go into the mail-order business on the same plan as Mont- 
 gomery Ward & Co., I could not do it, because to-day there is not a 
 demand for a mail-order proposition in this country, and Montgomery 
 Ward & Co. could not start over and make a success. It is only 
 because they made their success when there was a demand for a 
 
PARCEL POST. 1135 
 
 mail-order hou.se, and to-day they have millions of customers, and 
 after you throw open the mails to them, they and every other honest 
 and dishonest mail-order house will take advantage of it, and these 
 thieves would, and they would take millions of dollars from the 
 people of the country. 
 
 The Chairman. Isn't your remedy legislation changing the whole 
 character of that business ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I think so. Bat I might say legislate first. I will 
 promise you if you show me that the post-office authorities can pro- 
 tect the purchaser against misrepresentation, I will withdraw all of 
 my objections to your proposition. 
 
 The Chairman. Just in that connection, in order to get the remedy 
 of that abuse, would you then advocate the establishment as a censor- 
 ship in the Post Office Department, so that an individual, or a bureau, 
 or a department would have the right to autocratically designate 
 what should go into the mails and what should not ? That is a power 
 such as no man in the world should have. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. You know they have that power now, and they 
 use it. 
 
 The Chairman. They have it within certain limitations. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Not until recently — I think the last Congress prob- 
 ably modified it somewhat. When I was more familiar with the mail- 
 order business than I am now, than I am right here to-day, the Gov- 
 ernment had the authority, if they saw your advertisement in the 
 Eaper and it had the sound of insincerity, the Post Office Department 
 ad the authority and did occasionally investigate, and if they found 
 your business was dishonest, they issued what is known as a fraud 
 order, requiring the post-office where- you were doing business to stop 
 your mad, to stamp on it "fraudulent" and send it back to the 
 sender, and they could do that, and a man had no recourse. I think 
 Congress has, since that time, modified that ruling to a certain extent, 
 perhaps so that the man is entitled to a hearing before the fraud order 
 is issued. But the Postmaster General, I think, will admit that they 
 have the authority, and they should have it, rightly have it, and I 
 believe if these facts were brought to him he would say, "We have not 
 had time to investigate it." 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you been cognizant of this condi- 
 tion, which in your opinion amounts to facts ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Well, I have known more or less about it for per- 
 haps six or seven years. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, haven't you been derelict in your duty as an 
 American citizen in not bringing it to the attention of the department 
 and having them take the proper steps to rectify it ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I have on several occasions, when I thought per- 
 haps a suggestion would be a benefit, written a letter to the depart- 
 ment, but I have invariably gotten an answer, courteously, that it 
 would be referred to some one for action. But since that time I have 
 never gotten any further information concerning the subjects I have 
 brought to the attention of the department. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Your contention is, if it is not fraudulent it is 
 improper for the Government to lose a great deal of money adver- 
 tising other people's business ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I do ; I say you are a party to then business to that 
 extent, because that publication has no excuse on earth for existence, 
 
1136 PARCEL POST. 
 
 except that it carries these advertisements; it is existing at an immense 
 loss, except from the money paid them by the dishonest advertiser, 
 and the Government, nevertheless, takes this. Now, they pay 1 cent 
 a pound for carriage, but for my letter I pay 2 cents an ounce. I do 
 not know what this paper will run to the pound, but there was one 
 paper found-«-not a mail-order paper, however — that would run 80 
 to the pound. That paper was entered in Los Angeles, Cal., as sec- 
 ond-class matter, and the Government delivered 80 papers, some 'on 
 rural-delivery routes, for 1 cent. This paper, I imagine, they have, 
 carried to California and distributed for this man at a cost of probably 
 20 of them for a cent, and it cost the Government, so the report says, 
 $65,000,000 last year to carry these papers, not this paper alone, but 
 that class of matter, and in 10 years it has cost them about 
 $600,000,000. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Your contention is that the Government has 
 no right to tax your business and make you pay your pro rata part 
 of the Federal taxes in order to advertise other business, at a loss to 
 the Government? 
 
 The Chairman. Dishonestly, is Mr. Craddock's contention. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I say I fully agree — I think I am right, but I may 
 be mistaken — that the Postmaster General should recommend to 
 Congress some remedy that may not relieve him of this alone 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; a commission was established which had the 
 matter under consideration. The report, however, has not as yet 
 been received. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I fully agree with him. I think his idea is to 
 charge extra on the advertising contained in papers, and he has of 
 course been assailed by all the newspapers and the magazines, 
 because it would take money out of their pockets I, for one, am 
 heartily in favor of it. Answering Senator Swanson's question as to 
 my attitude, I judge in establishing the post-office service to transport 
 mail, that it was the Government's idea to handle it as economically 
 as possible, and charge the people just what it cost. They neither 
 wanted to make a profit or show a loss, and I suppose that is still 
 the policy of the Government. I would not be in favor of your 
 carrying the mail and making an enormous profit for the Government, 
 nor do I think you are justified in carrying any class of mail at a 
 great loss which taxes me and everybody else not in that particular 
 line of business, for carrying a certain class of mail. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you make any distinction between news- 
 papers, periodicals, and magazines? 
 
 Mr, Craddock. In the first place, if I was asked my opinion 
 
 The Chairman. Would you make a distinction between the char- 
 acter ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Yes. In the first place, if I had any authority I 
 would not carry this kind of literature at all, because it is damaging. 
 I think it is bad in effect, even in its reading matter. For instance, 
 look at the horrible pictures and the horrible stories that they tell, 
 and it is made up of patent medicines and these fraudulent adver- 
 tisements, and I think the Government ought to absolutely refuse 
 to handle that stuff at all. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think by legislation you can create a 
 classification as to what literature should be carried and what should 
 
PARCEL, POST. 1137 
 
 not be, or do you have to leave that to the administrative branch of 
 the Government ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I suppose you have to pass the laws and they 
 enforce them. I know in Chicago once— I do not know just why they 
 took up this particular man — they found a man running a paper 
 there, an editor, and he was sent to the penitentiary and served a 
 term of years for sending obscene matter through the mail. His 
 publication was regarded as obscene, matter. The matter in this 
 
 Saper, while I do not think it would be regarded as obscene, while I 
 o not think the Government has any excuse to carry it, saying it 
 would be beneficial and educational, I think most of the advertising 
 propositions are misleading, to say the least of it, and that it is 
 through that medium that the people of the country are being de- 
 frauded of a great deal of money. I just want to make a few points. 
 I don't want to take up your time much longer, but I want to refer 
 to one or two other matters. We touched on that point as to why 
 I thought it was class legislation. 
 
 I want to answer Senator Swanson's question. In questioning Mr. 
 Caskie, he is not as closely allied with the retail merchants as I am. 
 In my life as a boy, I was a clerk in a country store, and since then I 
 have traveled and sold them goods ; I am in very close touch with the 
 country merchants and know the situation very thoroughly. The 
 Senator cited the case of a package originating at the origin of the rural 
 delivery route in Lynchburg or Chatham — I am familiar with both 
 of the towns Senator Swanson spoke of and the rural routes. Then 
 he asked if the United States Government says this man passing over 
 the line does not have all that he could carry, and it could agree to 
 carry packages back and forth at a small cost, whether or not that 
 would help the merchant of Lynchburg. It is the opinion of the 
 most of the people who have looked at that phase of it, that at Lynch- 
 burg or Chatham the mail-order house would immediately start a 
 branch; they would have an agent there, and these papers right here 
 go all through Pittsylvania County. The mail-order house would 
 ship by freight to Chatham, and tins agent would take the individual 
 packages and put sufficient stamps on them, put them in the mail, 
 and the packages would be carried out to the various customers. 
 You might ask the question if they are not getting the goods cheaper, 
 than if they could get them from Chatham or Lynchburg with the 
 same kind of postage on them, why they would not write a letter to 
 Lynchburg or Chatham to kindly send this article ? 
 
 The Lynchburg or Chatham merchants, doing business under the 
 present system, do not get out catalogues, and doing business in a 
 small section of the country they could not afford to get them out. 
 These other people can afford to get out a handsome catalogue, and it 
 is easier to sit at home and look at these catalogues than it would be 
 •to go to town or telephone and leave it to the merchant to select the 
 goods, and the customer could get them almost as cheap, because the 
 postman, after he got to Chatham, would have the package in his 
 hand, and he would bring it out to them without increasing the cost, 
 and it would be shipped to them by freight. This one individual 
 would probably do as much business as a dozen country merchants in 
 the county, and yet he would not pay a dollar's worth of taxes to the 
 county. He is of no value to the county at all ; as a matter of fact, he 
 is a leech, taking the lifeblood of the country merchant. 
 
1138 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. That is this self-constituted agent? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Yes. If you establish a parcel post on a rural 
 route, and only where the route originated, carrying packages to its 
 termination, and it was possible to eliminate the establishment of 
 this branch office, I do not think it would materially hurt the country 
 merchant, only to the extent it would help the country merchant in 
 Chatham or Lynchburg. It would probably increase the business of 
 Lynchburg or Chatham, who, to a certain extent, furnish these people 
 merchandise, and would hurt us just to the extent that it helped the 
 country merchant in the other towns, but it would not take any 
 money out of the State. But I do not think you can safeguard it by 
 keeping all of these mail-order houses from having their agents 
 there, and for all routes going out of Lynchburg the goods would be 
 shipped to him, all fixed up addressed to the man himself. He would 
 take an order and put this small amount of postage, of three-quarters 
 of a cent, or a half cent, or whatever it was, and let it go by mail. 
 And you would find those agents in every county and State. 
 
 The Chairman. Let me ask you, in that connection — the self- 
 constituted agent is not going to get credit with these different mail- 
 order houses with whom he wishes to do business, when he is entirely 
 unknown to them. That does not sound reasonable. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. He would only represent one. 
 
 The Chairman. Would the mail-order house send a representative 
 into every town ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. They have now representatives in most of the 
 towns. The little village I lived in, Houston, Halifax County, is a 
 little place containing not over 800 people, I suppose. I understand 
 a gentleman living there — the son of Congressman Edmands, who 
 represented that district in Congress — -has made his living for the 
 past 10 years by representing either Sears, Roebuck & Co. or Mont- 
 gomery Ward & Co. 
 
 The Chairman. I can only say, if I am right in my recollection, 
 that the representative of Montgomery Ward & Co., who appeared 
 before the committee, stated that they had no agents over the United 
 States; but they had, I think, five men traveling over the United 
 States who reported to them the conditions that they found existing 
 in different parts of the country, but none of them solicited orders in 
 any way . 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I do not say it was Montgomery Ward & Co., but 
 I will say this positively, that it was either one or the. other, either 
 Montgomery Ward or Sears, Roebuck & Co. That gentleman has 
 been their agent at that point for the past 10 years. It has been 
 stated — I do not state it, although I have a gentleman present who 
 will make the statement if called upon — that at least a large per- 
 centage of your rural free delivery carriers are in the employ of the 
 mail-order houses. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, that is a pretty serious statement to make. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Let me state that clearly, that I have heard that, 
 and there is a gentleman present, if you wish to ask him, who will 
 tell you that a rural free delivery carrier made that statement to 
 him, and I will produce the man, and that will account for at least 
 one. But I have frequently heard it stated, and the country mer- 
 chant will generally say that the rural free delivery man is acting 
 in many cases, if not the majority, as an agent for a mail-order house. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1139 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any knowledge or information which 
 you believe authentic that you could state about it, as to the terms 
 upon which these rural carriers are designated by the mail-order 
 houses as their agents ? 
 
 Mr. Ceaddock. No; as I told you, I thought I made my statement 
 clear. I have no knowledge on that point. 
 
 The Chairman. No; I understand, but from hearsay have you 
 any knowledge 1 
 
 Mr. Craddock. No; I have never gone into that question. But 
 there is a gentleman here who will tell you that a rural delivery car- 
 rier said that he acted as their agent. There is just one other phase 
 of this subject that I want to touch upon. In this country, as near 
 as I can get at it, there are about 150,000 of what is termed "general 
 stores."' A general store usually means a man doing business in a 
 small town, so small that they have not divided it into department 
 and specialty lines; what might be really a general store in a large 
 city is not so termed, but it is termed the department store. There- 
 fore, when I say there ai-e 150,000 general stores it is fair to admit 
 that nearly all of them are located in small towns and in the country, 
 and they look largely for their support to the people who live in the 
 country. 
 
 The Chairman. Within a contracted zone ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Yes. The small merchant in the small town we 
 find usually will do something like 40 or 50 per cent of his business 
 with people who live out and who have to drive in. Therefore, I 
 contend that either plan you would adopt 
 
 The Chairman. You mean either a flat or a zone basis 'i 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Yes; a flat or a zone basis, would affect the ] 50,000 
 merchants. 
 
 The Chairman. It would affect them detrimentally '! 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Detrimentally. I sell them, and I know their bus- 
 iness and know how they conduct their business, and know, most of 
 them, what they make. I know they do not make much and they 
 are not well paid. I have heard the statement frequently that in 
 the final analysis 90 per cent of these general stores fail, but I do 
 know from 25 years' selling experience selling them, that very few 
 of them ever accumulate anything. They are studious, hard work- 
 ers, and they handle this merchandise at a small profit and as small 
 as anybody could ask them to. 
 
 The Chairman. Let me ask you in that connection another ques- 
 tion. We have had a number of gentlemen before the committee 
 who have given us various estimates as to the cost of conducting the 
 business of stores — for instance, stores doing a $25,000 business, a 
 $250,000 business, and so on. Have you any knowledge or idea, 
 based upon your experience of 25 years, as to what the cost of opera- 
 tion of those 150,000 general stores would be? Is it 12 per cent, 15 
 per cent, or do you know what ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Answering that, Senator, it would be almost 
 impossible, with the country merchant, to figure his cost of doing 
 business, as so many various elements come into it. First of all, the 
 country merchant usually owns his store; he is usually a farmer. I 
 would say that 90 per cent of the country merchants originally were 
 fanners, and some of them continue to farm. He owns his store; 
 
1140 PAHCEL POST. 
 
 generally some of his family, some of his sons, help him to operate it, 
 and it costs him less than if he employed help. 
 
 The Chairman. And he never charges for his own time or his 
 family's time? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. No. 
 
 The Chairman. And consequently there could be no actual esti- 
 mate? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Yes. Another thing would be his distance from 
 the railroad station, the cost of transportation for his merchandise. 
 There is one thing I think is unfair in the proposition of handling 
 goods from one end of the rural route to the other. This merchant, if 
 he is 10 miles out, has to pay a certain sum for hauling his goods to the 
 depot, and it is necessary for him to make a little above that in order 
 to live, and the Government comes along and says "I will act as the 
 transportation company for the consumer and carry the small pack- 
 ages at much less than the legitimate cost will be, because I have a 
 man going back and forth who is not loaded down." Now, I say to the 
 consumer, I will qualify that, but I would not carry the merchant's 
 barrel of flour, or a barrel of sugar, or a keg of nails, and as the mer- 
 chant must buy in large quantities to get the price, it would eliminate 
 him from taking advantage of this system which the Government has 
 kindly put in vogue to handle all merchandise between two points for 
 less than it would cost any individual. 
 
 The Chairman. But in that connection — I know you want to be 
 fair, and I appreciate that fully — you predicate your statement on the 
 assumption that the contemplated rate would be competitive with the 
 freight rate. Now, there is no such construction. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I was speaking with reference to purely rural 
 routes. 
 
 The Chairman. Oh, I understand. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Now, jthere is just another phase. I know you 
 have been very kind to us in listening to what we have to say, but I 
 thought there were a few points that would be of interest. I do 
 want to make the statement about the part that the country mer- 
 chant plays in financing the farmer, and especially in the South, in 
 the cotton districts, and it is largely true all through the southern 
 sections. A man usually starts out about the first of the year, 
 when he hasn't much money to raise his crops, so he goes to his 
 near-by merchant and tells him that he has to have something to 
 eat, he has to have some clothes; that he will not be able to pay 
 him until crop time. He may pay him something, but he will at 
 least have to call on the merchant for credit. All right; the mer- 
 chant will investigate this man as closely as he can, and he actually 
 finances, to a large extent, a great many. Of course, there are 
 plenty of farmers who pay for everything they get, but there is a 
 large percentage who do not have the ready cash. 
 
 The Chairman. He finances him by giving him credit on his 
 books. He does not give money to him; he goes to the bank for 
 money. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. No; he extends him credit and usually the farmer 
 can get all he wants from the merchant. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Frequently the merchants are bankers ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Yes. Iwas once traveling in North Carolina and 
 I stopped all night at a man's place off in the woods. He owned 
 
PARCEL POST. 1141 
 
 3,000 acres of land and he told me that he was situated 20 miles off of 
 a railroad, that he had not seen a railroad train since the war, and 
 that he dealt absolutely with his local merchant and he did not be- 
 lieve that he actually saw and handled $5 in currency in a year. This 
 man owned 3,000 acres of land, the merchant took everything he had 
 on the farm and disposed of it for him, and he, in return, bought from 
 the merchant, and at the end of the year the merchant rendered a 
 statement back and forth. There are certain classes of merchandise 
 that a house like Montgomery Ward & Co. can buy in large quantities, 
 for instance the better grades of handkerchiefs and silk hosiery, 
 and they buy direct from the mill and send direct to the consumer. 
 Where they could send $10 worth through the mail for 4 cents, I am 
 perfectly frank to tell you they could sell those articles cheaper than 
 the country merchant. 
 
 The Chairman. The country merchant probably would not keep 
 those articles in stock 1 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Well, they handle better lines of goods than you 
 think. Montgomery Ward & Co., and the large mail-order houses 
 could probably undersell the country merchant on those articles, for 
 they buy direct from the manufacturer, and these men would buy 
 from the middle man, or the jobber, of course, paying him a slight 
 profit. My contention is that the people around the country merchant 
 may buy their ostrich plumes and their little jewelry and their silk 
 hosiery and a dozen different items like that or a part of them from 
 the mail-order house, but they go to the little merchant for their 
 coffee, their sugar, their plow points; but those things in the mercan- 
 tile business are so adjusted, that the more staple the article, the less 
 the profit. 
 
 The Chairman. Because of the greater competition ? 
 
 Mr. Ceaddock. Because of the greater competition, and it would 
 take away from this little fellow all the profit in his business and leave 
 all that was unprofitable, and as a consequence they would force him 
 out of his business. 
 
 The Chairman. You do not think any establishment of zones 
 would protect him against that competition ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I do not, to be perfectly frank with you. I think 
 Where you gentlemen have made the mistake in sizing up the situation 
 is that you have compared us with foreign countries. 
 
 The Chairman. Pardon me, if you will allow me to interrupt you. 
 I do not think we have made any mistake, because the committee has 
 not come to any conclusion as yet. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Well, perhaps some people have decided it was a 
 good thing, and drew their inferences from comparing our country, 
 which is a thinly-settled country with great distances, with the foreign 
 countries with the larger population and the smaller area, and the 
 foreign country may be able to safeguard their people; there may not 
 be as unsatisfactory publications as those in this country, and in a 
 foreign country a parcel post may be advisable, but I do not, from 
 the bottom of my heart, believe that the parcel post will do the con- 
 sumer any good, but I think it will hurt him. I think if Congress 
 opens a wider field for the dishonest mail-order houses that it will be 
 responsible for the people, especially in the country, the negroes, and 
 the illiterate whites, being robbed of millions of dollars by the dis- 
 honest grafters in the large cities. 
 
1142 PAECEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose your remedy was available and was in 
 force, by which you could protect the consumer against dishonest 
 advertising. Would not your contention then be much minimized ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I think so. I do not pretend to say that the time 
 will not come when it will be proper and when it will be legitimate for 
 the Government to increase its scope; but I do say that you are going 
 on dangerous grounds when you undertake to increase the facilities 
 of the dishonest mail-order man and also to increase the facilities of 
 what I would term a "mail-order trust." The mail-order business is 
 made up principally of those two or three large legitimate mail-order 
 houses in Chicago. A strange thing, Senator. Have you ever stopped 
 to -think why those houses are in Chicago, and they do not exist in 
 New York, and they do not exist in Boston ? 
 
 The Chairman. There are a number of catalogue houses in New 
 York. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Yes; but not to compare with the large houses of 
 Chicago. I do not think you will find a single mail-order house in 
 New York that is comparable with those two houses in Chicago. 
 Montgomery Ward & Co., located in Chicago, will not send a penny's 
 worth of goods into the county in which they are located, but they 
 subsist on the business of the country. There is no house in Boston, 
 New York, or any other part of the country that could do that, and 
 I claim, as I stated awhile ago, that Montgomery Ward & Co.'s busi- 
 ness has been built up because they started at a time when they were 
 a necessity to the country. That time has now passed, and they have 
 grown so large, both of the two houses, that if the Government was 
 to encourage them and give them increased facilities, which for rea- 
 sons I have stated nobody else could take advantage of, they would 
 be encouraging a monopoly, you might term it a "trust," that would 
 drive out of business these 150,000 general stores, with over 
 $350,000,000 invested in business, doing a business annually of one 
 billion. I think the Government should go slow; I think these mer- 
 chants have their rights and they should be protected. 
 
 The Chairman. Nobody on the committee, and, in fact, nobody in 
 Congress, wants to do any injury to any class of our society or injure 
 them in any way. I think we realize the responsibility of our trust, 
 and I think that has been demonstrated by the patience and care we 
 have taken in the study that we are making of the problem. There 
 is no desire to injure anyone. We want demonstration as to where 
 injury will accrue. Your arraignment is predicated, I take it, upon 
 dishonest advertising; that the whole evil as it exists, in your mind, 
 is primarily due to dishonest advertising. Is that t-uc ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I mention that as one, and one of the principal 
 reasons. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, is it not the principal reason « 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Yes; I will say the principal reason. I will say 
 further, not the only reason. If you would eliminate that, I would 
 still say that your proposition would benefit a few to the detriment of 
 many; that it would be class legislation. 
 
 The Chairman. Who is going to be benefited if many are to be 
 injured « What I want to get is, who are the individuals to be ben- 
 efited ? Your reply is, as I understand, the mail-order house is going 
 to be benefited and the consumer is not going to be benefited. How 
 
PARCEL POST. 1143 
 
 is the consumer going to cooperate with the mail-order home if he is 
 not going to share in the benefits, or at Least think so >. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I will try to answer that clearly. In the first 
 place, I took this position and thought I made myself clear to you 
 then: That the mails are thrown open to everybody, but everybody 
 in business has not mail-order customers. The large mail-order 
 houses built up their business along different lines, and it is hard for 
 one to quickly get mail-order customers at a profit. Therefore, the 
 houses now in business, with millions of customers on their lists, 
 would be the ones benefited and other people would not be bene- 
 fited. Now, -the next point: I have admitted that the consumer 
 buys some merchandise from these honorable mail-order houses for 
 less, and at a saving over the price he pays his local dealer. That, 
 however, depends largely upon their zone of operation. A man in 
 Illinois can buy a stove, or anything heavy, more profitably from a 
 i hicago mail-order house, where a consumer in California could not 
 buy it profitably, because, with the freight added, it would cost him 
 more than the local dealer would charge him, who got a lower rate for 
 freight by shipping in a carload, or perhaps shipping them in by 
 water. Therefore, it is impossible for me to tell at what point a man 
 can buy any particular merchandise cheaper, but I will admit there 
 is some merchandise in some sections of the country that the consumer 
 can buy profitably from these houses and cheaper than he can buy 
 from the local retail dealer. But I claim he is not benefited — I am 
 speaking now of the farmer, the man who is patronizing the country 
 store— if by giving a certain part of his business to the legitimate 
 mail-order house he takes away from the retail merchant a sufficient 
 uart of Ws support to make it impossible for this man to continue his 
 business in that locality, for he is then deprived of a market, or a store 
 where he can buy the necessities and leave his goods. 
 ' I claim that, while a man may save a few cents, he has been 
 damaged by the mail-order house. In other words, carry this 
 analysis further, and you will see that by carrying this merchandise 
 at a reasonable price, it would be to the interest of all classes of 
 people living off the railroads to buy all of their merchandise from 
 mail-order houses, and that it would be a saving to them to do that. 
 If I were to admit that, if you could prove it would pay them to buy 
 everything from the mail-order house, I think it would be wrong in 
 principle and ruinous to the interests of those farmers in any county 
 or State, because while deriving some slight benefit on the purchase, 
 they have driven out of business the retail merchants, and it will 
 cost them more to get the other goods they can not get from the mail- 
 order house, and they have at the same time destroyed their market. 
 
 The Chairman. In other words, they have destroyed the com- 
 petition ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Yes. Assuming that they would drive the country 
 merchant out of business, they might get very much more for their 
 produce. 
 
 The Chairman. We have had a good many witnesses before the 
 committee who have contended that the country store could sell in 
 competition with the mail-order house, and undersell them in a 
 great many articles. What is your judgment on that ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. As I told you, I believe the country merchant is 
 to-day giving better valuation in shoes than the mail-order houses. 
 
1144 PARCEL POST. 
 
 I know absolutely that the country merchant in Pittsylvania County 
 will sell a pair of men's shoes at from 50 to 75 cents a pair cheaper 
 than that same grade of pair of shoes can be bought tor in Philadel- 
 phia, New York, Chicago, and the larger cities, and the reason is 
 simply due to the fact that the expenses are so much lighter. The 
 expenses of a store in a city are enormous, and that difficulty is grow- 
 ing all the time. We have this difficulty to contend with: The man 
 in the city says we do not want you to sell to the country mer- 
 chant. We can not sell goods at his price and live, he has no 
 expense. However, we have built up ouf business with the country 
 merchant and we continue to sell to him, because we believe it is our 
 duty and everybody's duty to get merchandise to the consumer at- as 
 small expense over a legitimate profit as possible. I would rather 
 sell my goods to the man who makes a small profit, provided it was 
 enough to pay his expenses, with a small margin of profit above. 
 Now, when it comes to the question of whether a mail-order house 
 can sell a general line at lower prices than the country merchant, 
 there are so many things that enter into that question. For instance, 
 a man in Illinois might buy a keg of nails from a mail-order house, 
 while in Lynchburg a man can not afford to buy a keg of nails. 
 
 The Chairman. That is because it is wholesale? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Yes; and the merchant's price is not such as this 
 man saved on his carload lot. I believe there is certain light mer- 
 chandise that is also valuable that they could perhaps sell cheaper. 
 I think I could go over any of these catalogues and pick out mer- 
 chandise the consumer could order and get cheaper. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Let me ask you one question. People living in 
 the country, in the rural sections, are now deprived of receiving and 
 sending packages through the express, and the present high postage 
 is such as to really prevent them from utilizing the mails to any 
 extent. What would you suggest as a means of extending to the 
 people in the country the facilities for sending and receiving packages? 
 What would be the most efficient and cheapest way of supplying that 
 need for the country section ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Well, I think, Senator, you misstate it there a 
 little bit when you say it costs so much for him to get a package now. 
 In sending a pair of shoes we can send them cheaper by mail than we 
 can send them by express, almost always. 
 
 Senator Swanson. How much would a package of shoes weigh ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. A pair of shoes that sold for $3.50 and he wanted 
 to get them by mail — of course this is a flat rate and it would not 
 make any difference where the package came from. 
 
 Senator Swanson. The package of shoes would weigh about 3 
 pounds ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. No; it would depend upon whether it was a light 
 dress shoe. 
 
 The Chairman. But the bulk of the shoes which you make, what 
 would a pair weigh already wrapped or boxed ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I do not know that I could exactly tell you, but 
 I do know this, that we send out thousands and thousands of pairs of 
 shoes by mail. A merchant might run short of a size and he will 
 write us that he wants a pair of such and such a size immediately. 
 
 Senator Swanson. And you would send the pair direct to the 
 customer ? 
 
PARCEL POST. 1145 
 
 Mr. Ceaddook. I would send to the merchant. 
 
 Senator Swanson. And he makes the delivery to the customer ? 
 
 Mr. Cbaddock. Yes. 
 
 Senator Swanson. He pays at the rate of 16 cents a pound? 
 
 Mr. Cbaddock. Yes, and in nine cases out of ten when the customer 
 wants something like that the merchant absorbs the charge. 
 
 Senator Swanson. A great many farmers say that they have orders 
 for things on the farm, like eggs and butter, and at the present postage 
 rate they can not send them over the rural free delivery route to some 
 man in the city, and as a matter of fact they haven't any facilities 
 for doing that. If they live on the line of the railroad they can send 
 then produce by express, but the great demand of the farmer is to 
 give them facilities like other people have. What would you suggest 
 to give them? What method, by which the people in the country 
 could send their produce to market and likewise have their packages 
 brought out to them ? 
 
 Mr. Cbaddock. I am glad you brought up that question, because 
 when you were talking to Mr. Caskie and suggested that the rural 
 free delivery handle the produce of the country, I wanted to answer 
 the question, but as I was not giving my testimony I did not say any- 
 thing. I do not think, Senator, you could afford to undertake the 
 handling of produce. Where would you stop at ? 
 
 Senator Swanson. By the amount of pounds, by the limit of 
 pounds. 
 
 Mi-. Ckaddock. Not only stop by that, but you would have to stop — 
 for instance, you mentioned eggs ; there would be a question of break- 
 age, whether you could take a dozen eggs through the mails. 
 
 Senator Swanson. It would not be carried in the mails; it would 
 be put on a wagon and delivered to the merchant at the end of the 
 route. 
 
 Mr. Cbaddock. But you are undertaking to transport this perish- 
 able merchandise and you certainly take the risk as the transporter. 
 If you undertake to transport in Pittsylvania County eggs and but- 
 ter, you would have to put on teams to handle the butter and eggs, 
 the individual packages a man sends, and a man would have the right 
 to make as many packages as he wants; he could have his eggs put up 
 a dozen in a crate. 
 
 The Chaieman. But it would have to be on the same basis of the 
 cheaper rate; it would all fall on your rate. 
 
 Mr. Cbaddock. It would fall on this, whether or not you are going 
 in there to transport the farmer's produce cheaper than he could 
 transport it himself, and I do not believe you could, because the farmer 
 loads up his wagon with his merchandise and he drives to the store. 
 The economy is this : The exchange for other goods which the mer- 
 chant has, and a load back home. 
 
 Senator Swanson. There were cases cited here before the com- 
 mittee, where farmers would have a lot of lettuce, eggs, and butter 
 every day or two, and they would have to spend nearly the entire 
 cost of the produce to get it to the consumer, and the farmers insisted 
 that they ought to have some system of delivering packages and 
 getting them. Now, what system would you apply better than the 
 rural delivery for this facility ? 
 21845— vol 4—12 18 
 
1146 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Frankly I do not think 1 could suggest any, and I 
 do not think the Government can suggest any system whereby it can 
 carry the farmer's products to market cheaper than he can. 
 
 Senator Swanson. It is not a question of a carload of produce, 
 but there is an inconvenience, and the farmers have been here repeat- 
 edly testifying of their daily transactions, of what they wanted to 
 get into town or to the village store. Do you think the advantage 
 that would thus accrue to the farmer would offset the disadvantage 
 that you say would accrue, due to the mail-order people being able 
 to utilize it ? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I think the harm would be ten times as much as 
 the good, and I think the farmer, while sincere, would not take 
 advantage of it near as often as he thinks he would. 
 
 Senator Swanson. Suppose this matter could be arranged so that 
 the agent of the mail-order house would not be in the small towns. 
 Do you see where the country merchant would be hurt except by the 
 presence of the agent of the mail-order house? 
 
 Mr. Craddock. I could not say that he would if you did that. 
 But I can not understand yet, and never have understood, why, if 
 you put a lower price on your transportation than it would cost the 
 farmer — of course he would not pay more than it would cost him to 
 haul his own articles — that would keep him from turning the burden 
 of his entire crop for you to haul, and the mistake you make is that 
 you would be marketing his entire crop. Take an ordinary farmer 
 with 2 pounds of butter a day. What weight limit would you make, 
 for instance — would you make 8 pounds, just for example ? 
 
 Senator Swanson. We will say 8 pounds. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. You could not say to the farmer, I will take 8 pounds 
 of butter, but I will not take 8 pounds of wheat or tobacco ? 
 
 Senator Swanson. Well, all right, I will take his 8 pounds of wheat. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. Well, you agree to take it for less than it costs him. 
 If you did not he would not patronize you. 
 
 Senator Swanson. I would take it, because where a farmer wants 
 to send 8 pounds of wheat to another farmer, who wanted it for seed, 
 he would have to spend half a day in carrying it to him, and if he had 
 this privilege of the parcel post, he could send it on without losing 
 any time of his own. Now, they are the cases which the farmers who 
 have appeared here before us have stated occurred in their daily life, 
 their daily transactions. It is not the question of the Government 
 going into the transportation business, but there are numerous cases 
 like that all through the country where there is as much being sent 
 out as there would be coming in, and they feel in some way this thing 
 ought to be provided for them. 
 
 Mr. Craddock. That is all right, if you could get him not to send 
 more than 8 pounds, but if he could send 8 pounds, I do not see any 
 reason why he could not send his whole crop to the market. When- 
 ever the Government got to the point where the mail carrier carried 
 all he could, and you had to put on more of a load, there is no reason 
 to assume why you could run the transportation business any cheaper 
 than the farmer could who has the back-load haul. 
 
 Senator Swanson. If the farmer had 1,000 pounds and put it up 
 in 8-pound packages, and the Government made a profit on each one 
 of those packages, the Government would make a profit on all of 
 them? 
 
PARCEL POST. 1147 
 
 Mr. Craddock. The reason you make a profit is that you lack 
 the volume of business. You have your mode of transportation and 
 you lack a certain volume, but you get above that volume and you 
 would have to put on another man or another team, and you would 
 lose money, and I do not think the Government would have the 
 moral right to run the transportation business on those lines. That 
 is my way of looking at it, that it would be running it at a loss to 
 benefit that community and I find it is a class of legislation that 
 would be entirely improper; if in this case a man who wanted to send 
 8 pounds of wheat and he was not going in the direction he wanted 
 that to go, then you have stated one instance that might happen, and 
 yet that is on the rural free delivery route. I do not believe there is 
 any man living in the country or out of the country that is more 
 fond of it than I am and of the country life. I am more interested in 
 the farmer than I am in the man who lives in the city, because I be- 
 lieve, in the first place, the growth of the city depends on the pros- 
 ferity of the people who five in the country surrounding the city, 
 believe the stability of this country is, in a large measure depend- 
 ent upon our doing whatever we can to increase the facilities for the 
 country people to be educated and to live comfortably in the country 
 and to increase the rural population of the proper class, and if I felt 
 that this measure was for the benefit of these people, I would not 
 have a word to say against it. But I believe that it will not benefit 
 them in the long run, that it will drive out of business all of these 
 country merchants, and that it will injure all business similar to 
 mine, and that it will disarrange your entire system of the mercantile 
 business. I thank you gentlemen very much. 
 
 The Chairman. We are very much obliged to you, Mr. Craddock. 
 I would like to call on Mr. Ryland. 
 
TESTIMONY OF ME. D. B. EYIAND, OF LYNCHBUEG, VA. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Ryland, it will be necessary that you be 
 sworn. 
 
 Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your age, residence, and 
 present occupation? 
 
 Mr. Ryland. My age is 47 years ; I live in Lynchburg, Va. ; I am a 
 merchant and partially a farmer, as well. 
 
 The Chairman. In the testimony submitted this morning, a state- 
 ment was made that some of the rural carriers were actmg, or at 
 least one was acting, as an agent for one of the mail-order or catalogue 
 houses. Have you knowledge of any such condition of fact? 
 
 Mr. Ryland. About two years ago I made a trip to my old home 
 in eastern Virginia, and I took a rural delivery route at Hanover 
 Court House. I had no conveyance to meet me there, so I went 
 with the mail carrier. He was quite a congenial fellow, and he was 
 driving a very nice buckboard. I remarked on the vehicle and asked 
 him where he procured it. He said from Sears, Roebuck & Co. 
 I said, "Well, you bought it a long way from home; why didn't you 
 buy it from Richmond?" "Well," he said, "I act as agent forthese 
 gentlemen in this vicinity." 
 
 The Chairman. General agent or just to sell buckboards, or didn't 
 he specify ? 
 
 Mr. Ryland. That was the general remark. I merely took it as 
 he gave it, that he acted as their agent, whether for general supplies 
 or for buckboards, I do not know. 
 
 The Chairman. This was about two years ago ? 
 
 Mr. Ryland. Two years ago. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any other instances where rural car- 
 riers, to your knowledge, have claimed to act as agent for mail- 
 order houses ? 
 
 Mr. Ryland. No, sir. As Mr. Craddock stated, I have heard fre- 
 quently that they did, but I do not know of my own knowledge. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the only point I wanted to bring out. 
 The committee are much obliged to you for the information. 
 
 Thereupon, at 2.15 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned, subject 
 to the call of the chairman. 
 1148 
 
FBIDAY, FEBBTJABY 2, 1912. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 2 o'clock p. m. 
 Present, Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman). 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. T. J. BROOKS. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Brooks, it will be necessary that you first be 
 sworn. 
 
 Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state for the information of the 
 committee your age, residence, and present occupation ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. My age is 40; I reside at Atwood, Tenn.; my occupa- 
 tion is that of a farmer. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you hold any official position with any organi- 
 zation in the United States ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. I am the national legislative committeeman for the 
 Farmers' Educational and Cooperative Union of America, which I am 
 here to represent. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly explain to the committee the 
 organization you designated, the extent of its activities in member-- 
 ship, and how generally it has organizations over the United States ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. It might be proper for the record to give a list of the 
 legislative committeemen who have been here. 
 
 The Chairman. Just make the explanation, please. 
 
 Mr. Bkooks. The gentlemen who have been sent here as a legisla- 
 tive committee of our organization are C. S. Barrett, national presi- 
 dent, Georgia; A. C Davis, national secretary, Arkansas; W. S. Cal- 
 licotte, national vice president, Colorado ; O. F. Dornblaser, member 
 national executive committee, Texas ; Peter Radford, president Texas 
 division, Texas ; L. M. Rhodes, member national executive committee 
 and president of Tennessee division, Tennessee ; T. J. Brooks, member 
 national legislative committee, Tennessee; and R. L. Barnett, secre- 
 tary Kentucky division, Kentucky. 
 
 We represent the largest body of organized farmers in the world. 
 The organized territory extends from Virginia to California and from 
 the State of Washington to Florida, including about 30 States. 
 
 Our organization is educational, fraternal, industrial, and commer- 
 cial. It is nonpartisan, and does not allow any one of its officers to 
 hold political office so long as he retains his official position in the 
 organization. The organization is 11 years old, and this has been its 
 policy since the beginning. It has some well-defined purposes — social, 
 industrial, and commercial. It has also taken a decided stand upon 
 a number of public questions, one of which is the general parcel post. 
 The organization is unanimous in demanding that Congress pass a 
 law establishing some form of the general parcel post. We do not 
 feel it incumbent upon ourselves to draft the bill necessary to carry 
 
 1149 
 
1150 PAECEL POST. 
 
 into effect this principle, but leave that to you gentlemen, who have 
 at your command all the facts connected therewith. 
 
 We find that your committee has gone so thoroughly into the sub- 
 ject and discussed every phase of it so exhaustively that we can do no 
 more than emphasize the demand for parcel-post legislation and 
 express our preference on some salient points. 
 
 The subject divides itself under two primary heads: 
 
 First. The assumption by the Government of the express business. 
 
 Second. The extension of the parcel-post department of the mail 
 service after the manner of foreign countries. 
 
 The question of the extension of the parcel post also divides itself 
 \mder two heads: 
 
 First. The rural parcel post. 
 
 Second. The general parcel post. 
 
 The general parcel post has two distinct divisions : 
 
 First. For the Government to declare a monopoly. 
 
 Second. To allow express competition as at present on second, 
 third, and fourth class matter. 
 
 The question of rates has two divisions : 
 
 First. The flat-rate system. 
 
 Second. The system of zone distances with weight limits and sliding 
 scale of charges. 
 
 Improvements in business methods are just as essential as improve- 
 ments in machinery. Improvement in efficiency is the aim of the 
 managers of all lines of business. 
 
 Whatever plan is adopted in the establishment of a general parcel 
 post for the distribution of the small package, the ultimate object is 
 to assure the greatest efficiency based on the principle of economics 
 in transportation. 
 
 The first proposition which we will discuss is whether the Govern- 
 ment should take over the express companies and operate them. 
 This is comparatively a new phase of the question. The extension of 
 a parcel post would be unnecessary in the Postal Department were 
 the express companies run by the Government. 
 
 The machinery is already in operation, and it would require no 
 innovation or even change of managers to establish Government 
 postal express service. ' A postage stamp would then take. the place 
 of a great deal of the accounting that is carried on by the express 
 companies. 
 
 A uniformity of interchange on all lines, which is not now secured 
 because of different companies, would be an advantage. The rate 
 could be materially decreased even though the same contracts were 
 continued with the railroads for hauling the express cars. The rate 
 is said to be about one-half of the gross receipts. In other words, the 
 railroad companies and the express companies divide the gross 
 receipts equally. With the postal express, the question of a flat rate 
 Or a zone rate would be settled without controversy, as the volume of 
 business and size of the package, being practically without a limit, it 
 would be a commercial absurdity to have a flat rate. The zone rate 
 is the fairest to all concerned. It would be as fair to the merchant as 
 it would be to the farmer ; and as fair to the farmer as to the manu- 
 facturer or anyone else. It is based upon correct principles of 
 transportation economics. We can see but one objection that could 
 be raised, and that is the propriety of the Government extending its 
 
PAKOEL POST. 1151 
 
 operations over private companies by absorbing them. This brings 
 up the question of extending the bureaucratic features of our Govern- 
 ment, which some think have already reached further than they 
 should. 
 
 The Government would run no financial risk in taking charge of 
 the express business, as the record of their success shows it to be a 
 safe business. 
 
 The express companies operate through 31,000 offices and have 
 170,000 miles of routes. According to the report of the Interstate 
 Commerce Commission the physical valuation of all the companies 
 is approximately $40,000,000. During 1910 the Adams Express Co. 
 earned 22.18 per cent on $12,000,000; paid 12 per cent dividend and 
 interest on a funded debt of $36,000,000 4 per cent bonds. The 
 American Express Co. earned 19.29 per cent and paid 12 per cent on 
 $18,000,000. The United States Express Co. earned 8.93 per cent 
 and paid 6 per cent on $10,000,000. The Wells Fargo Express Co. 
 earned 20 per cent on $24,000,000, which includes $16,000,000 distrib- 
 uted to shareholders as stock dividend, together with $8,000,000 in 
 cash. 
 
 The extent of the excessive charges by the express companies is 
 shown clearly in the case of the Great Northern Express Co. It was 
 originated in 1892 with a capital of only $100,000. The total cost 
 of the property, real estate, fixtures, and equipment amounted to 
 $71,288.19. Tjpon this total investment it has paid in dividends 
 during the last 10 years the enormous sum of $3,200,000. Its last 
 annual dividend was $500,000 — five times the original investment. 
 In addition it has a surplus of $1,488,881.58. All these profits came 
 from the pockets of the public and have arisen from the proportion of 
 total charges for express service after the company paid to the rail- 
 roads from 40 to 55 per cent of its gross earnings. 
 
 As the House committee having charge of this measure has gone 
 exhaustively into this phase of the question we will not take up your 
 time to elaborate further on the postal express, the details of which 
 have already been published in the House hearings. 
 
 Coming to the question of the extension of the parcel post of the 
 mail service after the manner of foreign countries, we simply wish to 
 point out a few features of this proposal. It seems that the favorite 
 parcel-post scheme upon the part of a large per cent of the Members of 
 Congress is the establishment of a rural parcel post. But of all. the 
 suggestions of a parcel post, not one of them is as little appreciated by 
 those for whose benefit it is intended as is this proposition. We know 
 of no organization zealously demanding any such legislation. It 
 would be considered as a sort of excuse for postponement of a real 
 parcel post. 
 
 Coming to that of a general parcel post, we are confronted with the 
 two theories of a Government monopoly and of allowing competition, 
 as at present, on second, third, and fourth class matter. This, we 
 think, will be decided by the decision made as to the rate system. If 
 we establish a flat rate, the Government should certainly declare a 
 monopoly; if we establish a zone rate, we think it would be immate- 
 rial whether it declared a monopoly or not. If the Government is 
 justified in encroaching upon the express business at all, it is justi- 
 fied in taking charge of the express business completely. But 
 should the zone rate of a parcel post be adopted, we should expect it 
 
1152 PARCEL POST. 
 
 to be equally as advantageous to those using it as it is at present. So 
 this brings us to positively oppose the position taken by the Post- 
 master General in his hearings before, the Senate committee, that 
 he thought 11 pounds should be the limit in weight and 12 cents the? 
 minimum limit in charges, and that 1 pound be the unit. If this were 
 adopted, it would cost more to send less than a pound by parcels post 
 than it costs now, which would throw the bulk of the small packages 
 to the express companies. At present a 2-ounce package can be 
 sent for 2 cents, a 4-ounce package for 4 cents, 8-ounce package for 
 8 cents, and a 10-ounce package for 10 cents. But under the plan 
 suggested by the Postmaster General each of these packages would 
 have to bear a 12-cent postage. It is also obvious that the rate might 
 be raised another way : The average shipment by express to-day is 
 about 200 miles. The average cost for a 10-pound package is 51 
 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. You say, "the average cost for a 10-pound package 
 is 51 cents." You mean that the express companies charge 51 cents, 
 according to your information ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. Yes. 
 
 If an 8-cent flat-rate parcel-post law were to be enacted, with a 
 Government monopoly, that shipment would cost 80 cents. If the 
 Government allowed competition, the express would still carry the 
 package. 
 
 By our international postal agreements we carry mail for foreign 
 nations at the rates they carry for us. By this agreement the inhabi- 
 tants of the principal foreign countries enjoy the privilege of sending 
 packages at an average of 12 cents a pound up to 11 pounds from their 
 own countries to any part of the United States ; whereas all packages 
 originating in the United States and delivered to any part of it are 
 restricted to 4 pounds and the rate is 16 cents a pound. A Londoner 
 can send a 3-pound package by mail to San Francisco for 30 cents, 
 but it would cost you 48 cents to send a like package by mail from your 
 rural mail box to your next neighbor on the rural route. A Dago in 
 Rome can send an 11 -pound package to a fellow fruit vender in Seat- 
 tle, 9,000 miles away, for $1.32, but you can not send the same pack- 
 age by mail at any price to the next station. A New York Japanese 
 can send an 11-pound package clear across the continent and then 
 across the Pacific Ocean to Tokyo for 12 cents a pound, but if you want 
 to send the same amount to any office in the United States it must be 
 divided into three parcels and 16 cents a pound postage attached, or 
 $1.76. An American citizen can send a larger and heavier parcel by 
 mail from Los Angeles to Edinburgh and back to Key West for less 
 postage than he can send it by mail from one place to another in the 
 same city. We carry in our mails the parcels of all Europe for less/ 
 than we carry parcels for our own people. Therefore we hereby enter 
 our protest against further delay in enacting a postal express bill thafc 
 will at least give the people of this country a parcel-post service equal, 
 to that enjoyed by the people of other leading nations of the world. 
 
 Any kind of a parcel-post service to be of material benefit to the", 
 agricultural classes must be extensive enough to include at least a 
 part of the truck-farm products, the poultry products, and dairy 
 products of the farmer. 
 
 The proposed extension of the parcel-post service in the bills which 
 have been introducer! would do this to a limited extent only. A 
 
PARCEL POST. 1153 
 
 postal express would cover this field completely. By going into 
 detailed particulars one may figure out an immense amount of saving 
 to the farmer in shipping such products to the towns and cities. 
 Beginning with the rural-route postal service and extending to any 
 available market this service would be of equal advantage to the con- 
 sumers in the towns and cities buying said products, inasmuch as it 
 would enable the producer and the consumer to get closer together in 
 their trade relationship, and the savings on the part of the consumer 
 and of the producer would be mutual. 
 
 The possibilities of the extensive use of this species of transporta- 
 tion is incalculable. It would suggest the power of the producer to 
 support the teeming millions of the urban districts, giving him a 
 better market and at the same time enabling the city worker to sup- 
 port himself while making those articles which the world in this com- 
 plex civilization needs. In other words, it would give greater power 
 to the laborer in the field to contribute to the world's needs, and 
 thereby give greater economic facilities for sustaining those institu- 
 tions which modern progress has developed. 
 
 We have no desire to file with this committee a long and tiresome 
 statement, but simply to state our attitude on the subject and leave 
 it with you, who have made it a special study, to arrive at a correct 
 conclusion and decide upon the details of the specific law that you 
 enact. There is no doubt of the well-nigh universal desire among the 
 rural population for some form of a general parcel post. To empha- 
 size that fact is our purpose in appearing before you. 
 
 The Chairman. In addition to the information that you have sub- 
 mitted for the benefit of the committee, would you state, Mr. Brooks, 
 what, in your opinion, is the probable membership of the Farmers' 
 Educational and Cooperative Union of America in the United States ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. We have initiated 3,000,000 people. I do not know 
 the exact membership at present. 
 
 The Chairman. Three million ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. As I understand, the testimony you have sub- 
 mitted is the consensus of opinion and represents the views of the 
 organization designated on this particular question ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. Yes, sir. It has been the purpose of the legislative 
 committee to do that. 
 
 The Chairman. Have j resolutions been passed by the various 
 branches of the organization over the country, located in some thirty- 
 odd States, as you have mentioned ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. Yes, sir; they have been passed in the local county, 
 State, and national conventions, and as far as I know there has never 
 been a protest against it at all. In fact, we never take up a legislative 
 question that the organization is not a practical unit on. We never 
 take part in those questions that the country is divided on, such as 
 tariff and things of that sort. 
 
 The Chairman. The members of your organization are insistent 
 on legislation in the direction of extending the scope and activity of 
 our present parcel post, as represented under the fourth-class mailing 
 privilege ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. Yes, sir. 
 
1154 PARCEL. POST. 
 
 The Chairman. I glean the impression from your testimony that 
 the organization would be extremely dissatisfied with restriction to 
 legislation to the rural routes alone. 
 
 Mr. Brooks. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. They would look upon that as a makeshift and an 
 avoidance of action, which you think the conditions and the general 
 welfare of the country warrant and necessitate ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. Yes, sir; that is correct. 
 
 The Chairman. In the study that the members of the organiza- 
 tion — you yourself and your legislative committee — have made on the 
 subject, you have come to the conclusion, as I understand, that it is 
 necessary to either create a Government monopoly within the scope 
 of any extension that is made of the present activity of our fourth- 
 class mail matter, or absorb the express companies or establish a 
 zone system % 
 
 Mr. Brooks. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. So as to make them a governmental competition 
 and regulation by competition of the excessive charges, which, as I 
 understand, in your opinion, have been made by the express com- 
 panies % 
 
 Mr. Brooks. And almost necessarily so, because of the peculiar 
 position they occupy in transportation. They could not possibly 
 avoid some of the expenses that they have to incur which could be 
 avoided were it run by the Government. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee have been engaged for some time 
 now in the particular study of a zone problem. The difficulty seems 
 to be, so far as the study has advanced, in the ability to determine a 
 series of zones based on scientific ascertainment that will be practic- 
 able in operation. 
 
 Mr. Brooks. It would be a little more difficult to establish that in 
 the Postal Department than it is for the express companies to operate 
 under that plan. Of course, they have wnat you might call a zone 
 system; that is, they have rates for distance and size of package, 
 etc. The extension of the postal department to include larger pack- 
 ages in order to be based upon sound economic principles in trans- 
 portation would have to be based upon a zone system unless you 
 limited it to a very small package. In other words, large pack- 
 ages carried at a flat rate would be at a loss, unless you eliminate 
 competition, and when you eliminate competition the chances are 
 that you will raise the price on small packages above what it is now. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, let us take that phase of the subject for a 
 moment. In any conclusion that the committee may come to, 
 it seems to mo personally that you have to take into consideration 
 the cost of each individual transaction on the following lines: A 
 minimum price or charge should be established from a business 
 standpoint, as a business proposition, to cover the cost of collection 
 and distribution. 
 
 Mr. Brooks. Clerical work ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes, as well as the transportation, and in small 
 packages the main cost is the clerical work, the cost of concentration 
 or collection and distribution, rather than the cost of transportation. 
 The estimates being made vary from 20 to 30 per cent for the cost 
 of transportation and 70 to SO per cent for the cost of collection and 
 distribution on packages averaging, say, around 5 ounces. Doubtless 
 
PARCEL POST. 1155 
 
 as the weight increases the proportion of the cost of the total activity 
 of the transaction for transportation will increase ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. Hardly at the same ratio, though? 
 
 The Chairman. I think not. I have come to no conclusions in 
 reference to that point personally. We are studying out that feature 
 now. We have information that under an 11-pound maximum 
 weight limit the average weight of packages is between 3 and 4 
 pounds, a little over 3J pounds weight, as I remember. Now, it 
 seems to me that in an enlargement of the parcel post we have got 
 to establish a minimum charge which will cover the clerical work, 
 as you express it, in the collection and distribution, aside from the 
 transportation, and while your minimum charge may be relatively 
 high your increased charge on increased zones or increased weight 
 will be proportionately much less than the original charge to cover 
 the cost of collection and transportation. You concur in that, 
 don't you ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. Yes, sir. It simply shifts the burden of expense 
 from the large package to the small packages In other words you 
 cover the expense that you incur on the small package by what you 
 make on the large package, if you allow it to stay without coming to 
 that small technical part of making each package pay its own way. 
 
 The Chairman. Of course it is impossible to make each package 
 
 Eay its own way, but in your determination or your conclusion you 
 ave to try to reach an average which will be equitable over the 
 whole field of the business performed, but all the time bear in mind 
 the expense incident, whether it is 1 ounce or 1 pound or 4 pounds, 
 to the collection and the distribution. 
 
 Mr. Brooks. In your first-class mail it is just as much trouble and 
 it takes just as much work and just as much expense to collect, trans- 
 port, and deliver a letter with a 1-cent stamp on it that is unsealed as 
 it does a letter with a 2-cent stamp on it that is sealed. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. But do you look upon the first, second, and 
 fourth class mail as in the same class ? In other words does not the 
 educational feature in the first and especially in the second class 
 mail put it in a class by itself ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. Yes, sir; it does. There is no question about that. 
 One is educational and the other commercial. 
 
 The Chairman. Although to my mind, I am free to confess, fre- 
 quently comes the idea that there is an educational feature embodied 
 under the fourth-class mail privilege in the way of increased oppor- 
 tunity to our rural citizenship, more contentment and greater induce- 
 ment, which has its compensatory features to all classes of our citizens. 
 
 Mr. Brooks. That approaches the social question, you might 
 call it. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. There is a distinction undoubtedly between 
 the first and the fourth, but to say that the fourth was altogether an 
 exclusively commercial class, I am not yet convinced. Tf I under- 
 stood you correctly, you said it was your opinion that the organiza- 
 tion and its members that you represent here, would be dissatisfied 
 with legislation increasing the weight limit from 4 pounds to 11 
 pounds —that is, with stopping at 1 1 pounds as a maximum weight 
 limit? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. Well, not necessarily dissatisfied. It would merely 
 stop short of the possibilities of the system. 
 
1156 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. But in your opinion, do not the members of the 
 union realize that this necessarily has got to be a growth and a devel^ 
 opment in conjunction with the growth and development of the 
 country and all business methods and governmental and social con- 
 ditions as well ? And would they not, in your opinion, be thoroughly 
 satisfied if the weight limit was increased under our fourth-class mail 
 matter to 11 pounds from 4 pounds, the rates reduced materially, and 
 such zone systems adopted as from their study on the subject might 
 lead the committee and Congress to the conclusion of bemg practi- 
 cable and desirable ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. Why, most assuredly the membership would take 
 that kind of a law as being an honest attempt to do the right thing. 
 It might not meet the full desires of a great per cent of them, but they 
 would not take it as being a makeshi ft. 
 
 The Chairman. What they want is an honest effort . toward an 
 improvement and enlargement of the present scope ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Which do you think is the stronger idea or factor 
 in the minds of the members of your organization, increased trans- 
 portation facilities for export of their own products, or increased 
 transportation facilities for import of what they have to purchase 
 outside ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. That varies with communities. It depends on the 
 kind of business they are in. The farmer whose business is such that 
 he would have a great deal that he could ship through it would, of 
 course, judge it from the standpoint of selling and using it as a means 
 of delivery. In larger localities where he could not use it in that way, 
 or where he was not in a business that would make it profitable to 
 him to make use of it, he would look to the buying proposition as 
 being more to his interest. To say which of these constitute the 
 greater proportion, would be a mere guess. 
 
 The Chairman. Both are factors, are they not, in the minds of 
 each member ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. Yes, sir; most assuredly. 
 
 The Chairman. Would the Government, under legislation increas- 
 ing the weight limit of our fourth-class mail matter from 4 pounds to 11 
 pounds, and decreasing the rate to a competitive basis with express' 
 companies, get any greater addition to the present volume of fourth- 
 class mail matter than the> percentage of our present express business 
 in the United States falling within that weight limit ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. There would be this condition: That would enable 
 a great many people who live on rural routes to use it that can not 
 now use it, and who can not patronize express companies because of 
 the inconvenience of getting a package from the express station 
 home. Of course, I would not conceive of there being a law passed 
 
 fiving any kind of parcel post that did not include the rural routes. 1 
 f that was done, it would give more volume of business than it would 
 take from the express companies. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, as the matter comes to your mind, the pos- 
 sible additional amount of business that the Governemnt might have 
 to transact would be the present percentage of express business car- 
 ried at 11 pounds or under, and the new business created by utilization 
 of the rural delivery routes, which are now not covered by the express 
 companies ? 
 
PARCEL, POST. 1157 
 
 Mr. Brooks. Yes, sir. I do not suppose that the express com- 
 panies cover any rural-route deliveries. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I can not answer authoritatively, but my 
 supposition is the same as yours in that respect. 
 
 Mr. Brooks. Under the rulings of the department, as I understand 
 it, the mail carrier would not be permitted to carry any express 
 package for a customer, even though he were paid for it ? 
 
 The Chairman. That is only partially true. But what I meant 
 was, there might be express agencies on some rural routes in existence, 
 in which event, of course, they would be served by their own agency. 
 The ruling of the department based on law relative to the carriage 
 by rural mail carriers of parcels out of the mails is as follows : 
 
 Rural carriers are permitted to carry, outside of the mails, for hire, for and upon 
 request of patrons of their routes, only unmailable articles or packages of merchan- 
 dise, articles and packages of mailable matter weighing over 4 pounds, and mailable 
 and unmailable articles when combined in one package whether weighing in the 
 aggregate more or less than 4 pounds, provided such articles are received from one 
 merchant or patron to be delivered to one merchant or patron. But intoxicating 
 liquors (ardent, vinous, spirituous, or malt), explosives, liquids liable to explosion by 
 shock or jar, or to spontaneous combustion, or any article exhaling bad odor, shall 
 not in any circumstances be carried by rural carriers in their vehicles while on the 
 service of their routes, or while they have mail in their custody for delivery or 
 dispatch. 
 
 With the exception of matter entitled to free transmission through the mails under 
 the franking privilege and county newspapers, which by law may be carried free to 
 actual subscribers residing in county of publication except when addres ed for 
 delivery at post-offices having city delivery, and with the exception noted in 1he pre- 
 ceding paragraph, no mailable matter weighing 4 pounds or under shall be carried 
 by rural carriers while on duty unless postage thereon at regular rates has been paid. 
 
 Express matter which patrons deeire carriers to carry shall be delivered to carriers 
 in person, and they are not permitted to leave their official routes while on duty to 
 receive or deliver such merchandise, and shall not accept anything that will delay 
 the mail or in any way interfere with the service. 
 
 The fee for delivering express matter shall be paid by patron for whom service is 
 rendered, and carriers can not receive compensation from merchants for delivering 
 express matter to patrons. 
 
 In your classification of the different points presented in the 
 problem, as I understand, your organization has come to no 
 specific conclusion as to whether they favor, as an organization, the 
 condemnation of the express companies or the absorption of the 
 express companies, or leaving the express companies as competitors 
 with the Government, or the exact legislation that Congress might 
 enact, but are unanimous in their opinion that they desire the weight 
 limit increased, the prices reduced, and intelligent legislation enacted 
 so as to insure these two points, and at the same time make the 
 operation practically self-supporting when fully inaugurated. 
 
 Mr. Brooks. I think you have stated it fairly correct. They have 
 taken no stand for or against any specific bill introduced on the ques- 
 tion, inasmuch as it is supposed that those in charge of the question 
 can go into the details and discover the merits and demerits of each 
 proposition and come to a correct conclusion. It is merely to show 
 the attitude of the organized farmers on the question and to present 
 their views on some certain points. 
 
 The Chairman. In your own business, with your intimate knowl- 
 edge of the farming business, could you give for the information of 
 the committee an estimate as to the proportion of the farming busi- 
 ness in general: by that I mean the sale of the products, of course, 
 not that proportion locally consumed by the farmers' families, or 
 
1158 PARCEL POST. 
 
 any community where he has a number of employees, handled by 
 freight and what proportion would be, in your judgment, handled 
 by parcel post if the privilege was given under the classification of 
 the articles to be carried asfourth-classmaihmder an 1 1-pound weight 
 limit ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. As you stated your question, I think it would neces- 
 sarily be a rather small proportion that could be transported under 
 Earcel post. Evidently any of the great staple products could not 
 e handled that way. It would only be things that could be done 
 up in small package?. The great cotton products, the wheat prod- 
 ucts, and stock products would not touch it, so it would necessarily 
 reduce it to a small per cent,, but to r ay what percentage would be a 
 hazardous guess. 
 
 The Chairman. It would hardly be appreciable ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. It would be a negligible quantity as compared to the 
 whole. 
 
 The Chairman. And you have never heard, have you, anyone 
 advocate the establishment of a parcel post at a rate that would be 
 competitive with the freight rates of the railroads ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. To my mind that is absolutely impracticable. Is 
 it to y ours ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. It would be very absurd to think about establishing 
 that. So the great volume of business will always be done by freight. 
 
 The Chairman. We have had a number of witnesses before the 
 committee who seem to be of the opinion that any enlargement of 
 our present fourth-class mail privilege would result very detriment- 
 ally to the interest of the country storekeeper and greatly to the 
 advantage of the mail-order or catalogue houses ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. I think that is based almost invariably on the theory 
 of a flat rate parcel post, and perhaps an exaggerated idea of the 
 result, brought about by certain concerns that feel like it might be 
 a detriment to their interest, and they have cultivated the merchant 
 along that line very assiduously, in order to create a sentiment 
 against it. 
 
 The Chairman. Has there been rather an organized opposition to 
 the enlargement of the parcel post % 
 
 Mr. Brooks. Yes, sir; I am led to believe that drummers are 
 instructed to talk to merchants against it. From what I have seen 
 I think there has been quite a concerted action along that line. I 
 have never seen any statement of the result of the parcel post in 
 other countries that showed that it was detrimental to the merchant, 
 and it seems that if it had been there, they would have brought it 
 out. I have no information as to what they claim has been the 
 result along that line in Europe. 
 
 The Chairman. Your official position and the interest that you 
 have taken in the union would enable you, I assume, to be cognizant 
 of any financial or other contribution to any of the papers con- 
 nected with your organization on the part of railroads, mail-order 
 or catalogue houses, or any particular class of society, would it not ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. I would certainly know it if there was anything of 
 that sort in connection with the organization I am here representing. 
 
 The Chairman. Then I would like to ask you, if of your knowledge 
 any of the papers or organs or branches or officers of your organization 
 
PARCEL POST. 1159 
 
 have ever received any financial contributions from mail order or 
 catalogue houses, or railroads, for the purpose of carrying on a cam- 
 paign favorable to the enlargement of our present parcel-post 
 system as represented under the fourth-class mail privilege? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. I am quite certain that there have been no contribu- 
 tions, or even any encouragement by mail, so far as my knowledge goes 
 with the officials of the organization along that line; none whatever. 
 Of course, as to knowing the inside financial relationship of each paper 
 that represents the organizations, and with any other company or any 
 other firm, I could not be positive about that. 
 
 The Chairman. But if there was an organized movement on the 
 part of the mail order or catalogue houses, railroad companies, or any 
 class of society of any magnitude or class of business, with financial 
 contributions backing it in order to crystallize sentiment favorable to 
 the increase of our parcel-post activity, you would be in a position that 
 you certainly, in your opinion, would get some knowledge bearing on 
 that question. 
 
 Mr. Brooks. It does look like that would reach the knowledge of a 
 man who had been selected to represent the organization in this par- 
 ticular business, and I have never heard of anything of the kind. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any other points that have come to your 
 mind bearing upon the subject that you would like to present to the 
 committee for its information, Mr. Brooks ? 
 
 Mr. Brooks. Why, no, sir; I suppose not. There are no features 
 connected with this question that I know of that I could officially rep- 
 resent the organization on, further than stated, and private opinions 
 about some things I would not feel at liberty to give, because I am an 
 official representing an organization, and do not want to overstep 
 their orders or directions. 
 
 The Chairman. On behalf of the committee I want to thank you 
 very much for coming before the committee and giving us the benefit 
 of your views and your organization's views, as represented in the 
 report you have submitted. 
 
 Mr. Brooks. I certainly appreciate the privilege, and am very 
 grateful to the committee on the part of the organization for having 
 this opportunity. 
 
 Thereupon, at 2.55 o'clock p. m. the committee adjourned subject 
 to the call of the chairman. 
 
 O 
 
PARCEL POST 
 
 HEARINGS 
 
 BEFORE THE 
 
 SUBCOMMITTEE ON PARCEL POST 
 
 OF THE 
 
 SENATE COMMITTEE ON POST OFFICES 
 AND POST ROADS 
 
 UNDER 
 
 S. RES. 56 
 
 TO INQUIRE INTO AND REPORT TO THE SENATE AT THE EARLIEST 
 DATE PRACTICABLE WHAT CHANGES ARE NECESSARY OR 
 DESIRABLE IN THE POSTAL SYSTEM OF THE UNITED 
 STATES OR IN LAWS RELATING TO THE POSTAL 
 SERVICE, AND PARTICULARLY WITH REFER- 
 ENCE TO THE ESTABLISHMENT OF 
 A PARCELS POST 
 
 FEBRUARY 10, 12, AND APRIL, 23, 1912 
 
 VOL. Y 
 
 WASHINGTON 
 
 GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
 
 1912 
 
COMMITTEE ON POST OFFICES AND POST ROADS, UNITED STATES 
 
 SENATE. 
 
 Sixty-second Congress, Second Session. 
 JONATHAN BOURNE, Jk., of Oregon, Chairman. 
 
 BOIES PENROSE, of Pennsylvania. WILLIAM LORIMER, of Illinois. 
 
 WINTHROP MURRAY CRANE, of Massa- JOHN H. BANKHEAD, of Alabama, 
 
 chusetts. ROBERT L. TAYLOR, of Tennessee 
 
 SIMON GUGGENHEIM, of Colorado. ELLISON D. SMITH, of South Carolina. 
 
 FRANK O. BRIGGS. of New Jersey. CLAUDE A. SWANSON, of Virginia. 
 
 HARRY A. RICHARDSON, of Delaware. NATHAN P. BRYAN, of Florida. 
 
 WILLIAM O. BRADLEY, of Kentucky. JAMES E. MARTINE, of New Jersey. 
 JOSEPH L. BRISTOW, of Kansas. 
 
 A. W. Pbescott, Clerk. 
 II 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 
 SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 10, 1912. 
 
 Committee on Post Offices and Post Eoads, 
 
 United States Senate, 
 
 Washington, D. C. 
 The subcommittee met at 2 o'clock p. m. 
 
 Present: Senators Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), Nathan P. 
 Bryan, and Joseph L. Bristow. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF ME. 0. B. GEORGE, GENERAI AGENT IN WASH- 
 INGTON, D. C, FOR THE SOUTHERN AND ADAMS EXPRESS COS. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. George, it will be necessary that you be 
 sworn. 
 
 Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Please state your name, age, residence, and present 
 occupation. 
 
 Mr. George. Oliver B. George : residence, 1756 Columbia Road, 
 Washington, D. C. ; age, 54 next week; occupation, general agent 
 of the Adams and Southern Express Cos., Washington. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you held the position designated 
 with the Adams and Southern Express Cos. ? 
 
 Mr. George. I have held this position from 1899 to the fall of 
 1908; I was then transferred to a similar position at Philadelphia. 
 I spent three years in Philadelphia and returned to Washington 
 July last, 1911. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you held any other position in connection 
 with these express companies ? 
 
 Mr. George. Not in connection with these. 
 
 The Chairman. But with other express companies? 
 
 Mr. George. No other. I have been in the service of these com- 
 panies 31 years. 
 
 The Chairman. Are the Adams and Southern Express Cos. the 
 same company or different companies, but occupying the same offices? 
 
 Mr. George. Simply operating under general arrangement. The 
 total expense is prorated on the basis of the amount of business done 
 by each company. 
 
 The Chairman. But it is under one management here. 
 
 Mr. George. One management here. T have charge of both. 
 
 The Chairman. How many offices or buildings do the two com- 
 panies jointly operating here in Washington have here in the city? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, we of course have the terminal over here, which 
 we rent from the railroad company. 
 
 1161 
 
1162 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, in the Union Depot, you mean? 
 
 Mr. George. Second and I NE., the long warehouse you see there 
 occupied by all the express companies. The Adams and Southern 
 have about two-thirds of that space and the United States the other 
 third. 
 
 The Chairman. But it belongs to the terminal company? 
 
 Mr. George. Belongs to the terminal railroad people. 
 
 The Chairman. What other offices have you ? 
 
 Mr. George. We rent an office at 1425 F Street and one at Ninth 
 and D Streets. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you route any of your goods from these two 
 last offices you have designated? 
 
 Mr. George. No, sir; we bring those all by wagon service to the 
 terminal. 
 
 The Chairman. Everything is sent from the terminal? 
 
 Mr. George. Everything is waybilled and forwarded from there. 
 
 The Chairman. How many regular employees have you in the 
 two companies — the Adams and the Southern — jointly operating 
 here in Washington ? 
 
 Mr. George. Now, I have compiled these answers from your ques- 
 tions, Senator. The number of office employees in this city — I segre- 
 gate them — is 58 strictly office employees. 
 
 The Chairman. If you will go right on reading. 
 
 Mr. George. The next is the number of men employed in the col- 
 lection and delivery service and their compensation. Your question 
 reads, " The number of your office employees in this city, with their 
 compensation." The number of office employees is 58; their com- 
 pensation, $3,826.79. In addition to that compensation, Senator, 
 we pay subagents, of which we have 28 or 30, I think, distributed 
 around town, these drug-store offices, 5 cents per package. 
 
 The Chairman. In that connection, before going on, you say 
 you pay your subagents 5 cents per package? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What constitutes your subagents? I mean would 
 you make that a little more explicit. 
 
 Mr. George. What we understand by subagents are these sub- 
 agents located in drug stores, principally. 
 
 The Chairman. You do not include in your subagencies the mer- 
 chants' delivery or any delivery service? 
 
 Mr. George. Oh, no. Just the receiving of packages over the 
 counter in these various drug stores. 
 
 The Chairman. Roughly, how many have you contracts with 
 here in Washington? 
 
 Mr. George. Approximately 30; I do not know exactly; 30 or 31., 
 
 The Chairman. The sole compensation they receive is 5 cents for 
 each package received by them, or do they deliver packages as well? 
 
 Mr. George. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. They only receive them? 
 
 Mr. George. They only receive them and issue a receipt for them. 
 
 The Chairman. They act as subsending points for you? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have they authority to issue receipts binding 
 the company? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, indeed. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1163 
 
 The Chairman. You give them the company receipt book? 
 
 Mr. George. Company form of receipts, and they issue them and 
 sign their names as subagents. 
 
 The Chairman. And the company holds its receipt? 
 
 Mr. George. And the company holds its receipt. 
 
 The Chairman. Five cents per package, immaterial as to the 
 weight or value of the package ? 
 
 Mr. George. The weight or size do not govern. It is 5 cents per 
 package. 
 
 The Chairman. Does value govern at all? 
 
 Mr. George. No, sir. We do not permit them to handle anything 
 valuable; anything in the way of jewelry or currency or anything 
 like that. 
 
 The Chairman. You do not? 
 
 Mr. George. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the liability of the express company for 
 packages received by the subagencies of the nature you have just 
 described ? 
 
 Mr. George. In the absence of any declared value the liability 
 is $50. 
 
 The Chairman. That is so designated in the contract or the 
 receipt ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 . The Chairman. Do you require the shipper to sign the receipt? 
 The acceptance of the receipt, from your standpoint, closes the con- 
 tract? 
 
 Mr. George. That closes the contract. 
 
 The Chairman. Question No. 2 asks for the number of men em- 
 ployed in the collection and delivery service and their compensation. 
 
 Mr. George. The number of men employed in the collection and 
 delivery service is 142 ; their compensation. $7,487.87 per month. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the number and character of vehicles em- 
 ployed in the collection of parcels and their approximate cost? 
 
 Mr. George. Thirteen 2-ton electric vehicles and twenty-one 1-ton 
 electric vehicles. 
 
 The Chairman. By. 2-ton and 1-ton you mean the capacity for 
 weight ? 
 
 Mr. George; Yes, sir. Either one would carry an overload of 
 from 500 to 800 pounds. The approximate cost is $2,000. 
 
 The Chairman. Of each vehicle ? 
 
 Mr. George. Each vehicle. 
 
 The Chairman. Whether 2-ton or 1-ton? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, I average that. The 1-ton will cost a little 
 less than $2,000 and the 2-ton a little more. The first 12 vehicles 
 we purchased we paid $24,000 for them. They are a little cheaper 
 now, however. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the number of horses employed in your 
 delivery service in Washington and their approximate cost ? 
 
 Mr! 'George. We have not any in our service. We do not use 
 horses, but exclusively use power wagons. 
 
 The Chairman. How long since you discontinued the use of 
 horses ? 
 Mr. George. My recollection is in the fall of 1906. 
 
1164 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you made any estimate as to the cost of 
 maintenance of your equipment? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And in maintenance I would like also to include 
 operation, such as cost of your power. 
 
 Mr. George. The cost of maintenance of this equipment averages 
 approximately $60 per month. 
 
 The Chairman. Per machine ? 
 
 Mr. George. Per machine; yes, sir. That includes the salaries of 
 nine men engaged in the inspection and repairs, and so forth. 
 
 The Chairman. It does not include the chauffeur? 
 
 Mr. George. Oh, no. That is simply the maintenance of the 
 vehicles. 
 
 The Chairman. The repairs? 
 
 Mr. George. The total repairs for these vehicles average $252.75. 
 
 The Chairman. Per month? 
 
 Mr. George. Per month. That simply means minor repairs; in 
 other words, it does not include battery renewals. An electric bat- 
 tery such as we have in those wagons costs anywhere from $650 to 
 $750. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any data to show what the estimate of 
 your cost would be per month on the basis of renewals? 
 
 Mr. George. I have not for the entire year, but I have an auto- 
 mobile report, as we call it. This report carries items of supplies, 
 battery repairs. That particular month probably had no renewals; 
 it shows small repairs to batteries and the current, garage rental, and 
 garage employees. 
 
 The Chairman. That is one month's statement? 
 
 Mr. George. That is one month's statement; yes, sir. This is for 
 September, 1911, the same month. 
 
 The Chairman. That you have given these figures for? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. What do you estimate right off for depreciation 
 of your machines — your power vehicles? 
 
 Mr. George. We are estimating 10 per cent, but I think that is 
 very low, in my opinion. 
 
 The Chairman. You actually estimate 10 per cent, but you believe 
 it should be a higher depreciation than that ? 
 
 Mr. George. I think it should be ; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. What did you estimate your approximate propor- 
 tion of the time of your local force and equipment devoted to col- 
 lection and what time to delivery? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, now, it will be impossible to segregate that, 
 Senator, for this reason : A man may start out with a load of freight 
 in the morning for delivery and on his route he may make only half 
 a dozen or more calls and bring that business back to the warehouse 
 to be forwarded. 
 
 The Chairman. So that really it does not come back empty? 
 
 Mr. George. No; never. The delivery men make their calls for 
 outbound business on their respective routes. 
 
 The Ci-iairman. You try to manage them in routes so that the 
 delivery men on their routes also receive as well as deliver? 
 
 Mr. George. They receive and take care of all of the outbound 
 business that might originate on all of their respective routes. 
 
PABCEL POST. 1165 
 
 The Chairman. By " outbound " business you mean what? 
 Mr. George. Pick-up shipments coming from Washington. 
 The Chairman. And you term the delivery business in Washing- 
 ion " inbound "? 
 Mr. George. " Inbound " ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. I just wanted to get clear your technique. 
 
 Mr. George. That also applies to porters' force or any other of the 
 employees. P'or example, with our porters we could not tell you 
 what expense should be charged to porters or what time they devote 
 to the inbound or outbound business. Furthermore, they handle 
 transfer at the same time; they may be unloading a car which con- 
 tains business for Washington proper and all points south, and you 
 can not tell how much of one or the other; it would be an impossi- 
 bility to separate that. 
 
 The Chairman. Sometime ago I wrote and asked you if you 
 would kindly prepare and present for the information of the com- 
 mittee the total number of parcels delivered on the following days 
 during the year 1911 : January 30, February 28, March 29, April 
 27, May 19, July 1, August 21, September 19, and October 25, with 
 maximum, minimum, and average weights of such parcels. Were you 
 able to comply with that request? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly give us the information? 
 
 Mr. George. The total number of pieces on those dates was 25,972. 
 
 The Chairman. The aggregate of the dates specified? 
 
 Mr. George. The aggregate of the nine days. The total weight of 
 those 25,972 pieces was 1,079,276 pounds. The total number of pieces 
 collected on those dates during that year is 20,565 pieces, and the 
 total weight 693,235 pounds. The maximum weight of the articles 
 delivered was 1,190 pounds, and the minimum, of course, about 
 half a pound — anywhere from half a pound package on up. 
 
 The Chairman' Did you work out the average totals in and out ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes ; the average was 414 pounds on inbound business 
 or matter delivered, and the maximum weight of the shipments col- 
 lected — that is, outbound business — was 1,135 pounds; minimum, 
 one-half pound; average, 33| pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. In the number of years' experience that you have 
 had while at the head of the two companies, the Adams and the 
 Southern, jointly operating here, does the inbound or the outbound 
 business show in excess. 
 
 Mr. George. The inbound business is the greater in this city, but 
 that does not apply to all cities. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you consider the dates on which you have 
 given these figures in reply to my request as thoroughly representa- 
 tive of your average daily business throughout the year, with the 
 exception of the holidays. 
 
 Mr. George. I do. 
 
 The Chairman. How long a period does your holiday peak last f 
 
 Mr. George. Well, 10 davs, as a rule. Two or three years ago 
 they used to try to crowd it "all in four or five days, but they give us 
 a little more time now. 
 
 The Chairman. Thev do? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir ; we have been trying to educate them to it 
 for a number of years. 
 
1166 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. What would you figure in percentage as the in- 
 crease of the 10-day peak load of the holiday business over your 
 average business throughout the year? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, the average, considering the business over 10 
 or 12 days, would be about 70 per cent. I think, however, if you 
 would take the 1st to the 25th, inclusive, it would more than double 
 the ordinary business. 
 
 The Chairman. In the 5 days it would be 100 per cent increase ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. But the average 10 days would be 70 per cent in- 
 f rease ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. You have to make extra preparation, I assume, to 
 handle the increase of 70 or 100 per cent during this period of 5 
 to 10 days? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, indeed. We about double up our equipment. 
 
 The Chairman. How do you do that? By hiring outside teams 
 and conveyances? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir ; we hire all the wagons that the Merchants' 
 Transfer Co. and Knox Express can possibly spare. 
 
 The Chairman. You utilize then horse vehicles at that time as 
 well as power vehicles? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir; such as they have. 
 
 The Chairman. You have no difficulty in taking care of the busi- 
 ness? 
 
 Mr. George. No. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly give us the number of square 
 feet of floor space you have in your offices and warehouses here in 
 Washington and the part that is actually utilizied and necessary for 
 the handling of your business here ? 
 
 Mr. George. In our warehouse at Second and I we have in the 
 basement 15,232 square feet. 
 
 The Chairman. That is what you rent from the terminal com- 
 pany? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir ; known as our Second and I Streets terminal 
 or warehouse and general offices. The basement contains 15,232 
 square feet; the main floor, 15,007 square feet; office floor, 14,736 
 square feet, making a total of 44,975 square feet. The driveways 
 around this terminal occupy 23,415 square feet; track space, 10,677 
 square feet. 
 
 The Chairman. That is railroad-track space ? 
 
 Mr. George. Railroad tracks ; yes, sir. For the accommodation of 
 our cars, for the loading and unloading of our cars. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You apparently have there something over 60,000 
 square feet used for the storage and handling of the packages? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, no. That total of 44,975 square feet is used for 
 the incoming and outgoing business as well as the transfer passing 
 through Washington. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You have a basement containing 30,000-odd 
 ftquare feet? 
 
 Mr. George. No ; 15,232 square feet. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And the main floor containing about 15,000 
 square feet? 
 
PARCEL POST. 1167 
 
 Mr. George. Yes. They are all about, the same length, with a little 
 variation. 
 
 The Chairman. What proportion of this space is permanently oc- 
 cupied in what we will call continuous storage? I assume that you 
 have quite an amount of goods that remain over several days and that 
 continues along during the year. Is that true? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir; we have such space in that building. 
 
 The Chairman. Included in this place you have designated? 
 
 Mr. George. That is all included ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What proportion of that will be utilized in what 
 I will term continuous storage ? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, I should say that the space so occupied on the 
 lower floor is approximately 40 feet square; that on the main 
 floor 
 
 The Chairman. Forty feet square, and not 40 square feet? 
 
 Mr. George. No; 1,600 square feet. On the second floor possibly 
 20 by 30 and maybe 30 by 10, approximately. I have never meas- 
 ured it. That, you understand, is space used for what we term " on- 
 hand matter," matter which arrives here addressed to consignees 
 without any local address or marked " to be called for," or such mat- 
 ter as we are unable to find consignees for. 
 
 The Chairman. So that it is, in effect, permanently or continu- 
 ously occupied for this class of your business ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Does a portion of your business have to be trans- 
 ferred here from your cars arriving here to other cars going 
 through ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What proportion of the space you have desig- 
 nated here is utilized for that class of business? 
 
 Mr. George. Very little of the interior. That work all takes place 
 on the outside. 
 
 The Chairman. On the platform? 
 
 Mr. George. On the platform. 
 
 The Chairman. From car to car ? 
 
 Mr. George. From car to car. 
 
 The Chairman. What are the total number of pieces of express 
 that you handle here in Washington, both inward and outward that 
 go through this station that you rent from the terminal company, in 
 a year ? 
 
 Mr. George. Why, I could not answer that, Senator, as I have 
 never made any record of that. We have never counted them. 
 
 The Chairman. But that could easily be deduced from the data 
 you have given with reference to the inbound and outbound business 
 during the nine days designated, to which you have already replied? 
 
 Mr. George. Oh, that is strictly Washington business. Those 
 figures represent strictly Washington city business inbound and out- 
 bound, and do not include any of the through or transfer matter, 
 as we call it, handled from one car to another, or business handled 
 out under the train shed in Union Station, taken out of one car and 
 
 trUPKPn to 3,TlotllGI* C£H"« 
 
 The Chairman. But does include all business initiating or ending 
 here in Washington? • 
 
1168 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose that a package was started from some 
 town in New York over a line other than one of yours and it is trans- 
 ferred to your line here. What is the physical operation of that 
 transfer ? 
 
 Mr. George. It comes to the warehouse platform on the outside 
 and is there taken out of one car and immediately placed in another ; 
 it may be a direct transfer through that one car into another or into 
 a second car. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That car may have packages for different ex- 
 press companies. Is that car switched from one terminal? Suppose 
 it had a package for Adams and one for the United States Co. ? 
 
 Mr. George. You mean for destination in Adams's territory? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. 
 
 Mr. George. If it was destined to a point on the United States 
 Express Co.'s line we would make a local transfer, load it on a truck 
 and deliver it to Mr. Johnson's end of the warehouse in the same 
 building. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Other express companies are there in the same 
 building ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. They are rented from the Terminal Co. at the 
 Union Station? 
 
 Mr. George. We are all under the same roof. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is this station you have spoken of occupied by 
 all of the express companies? 
 
 Mr. George. By two, the Adams and the Southern. 
 
 The Chairman. They are occupied jointly by the two companies. 
 Mr. George explained that before you came in. 
 
 Mr. George, would you describe fully your local collection system, 
 particularly the methods of picking up business? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, I do not quite understand, Senator. You mean 
 this system of collecting business around town ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. Do they have to bring it to your offices or 
 these drug stores or substations, or do they notify you by phone or 
 otherwise, asking you to call at the houses ? 
 
 Mr. George. Whichever is most convenient to the shipper. If 
 they are some distance from either one of our regular branch offices 
 on F Street or Ninth and D Streets, or possibly away from our ware- 
 house, where we also receive business from the shippers, they would 
 possibly call us on the telephone and we would send a wagon after 
 that particular article. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you make any difference in charge 
 
 Mr. George. No. 
 
 The Chairman. Whether you send your wagon and pick up the 
 packet or whether the sender delivers it at your office or one of your 
 designated substations? 
 
 Mr. George. No, sir ; the charges are the same. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How much of a territory do you take in for 
 these collections in the District here ? 
 
 Mr. George. We take the entire city here, east and west. We 
 take from the extreme southern boundary to Cathedral Street on the 
 north or northwest. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1169 
 
 The Chairman. The distance being what? What would you say- 
 in miles, roughly ? 
 
 Mr. George. I worked that out some time ago, Senator, and found 
 it was 25 or 30 square miles ; something like that. 
 
 The Chairman. The area covered by 3'our collection district? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You spoke of Cathedral Street. Is that what is 
 known as Cathedral Avenue? 
 
 Mr. George. That is what I meant to say, Senator. That is be- 
 yond Connecticut Avenue Bridge. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If some one living out there should telephone 
 vour office they had a package that was destined for Baltimore or 
 Philadelphia, you would go out there and get it ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Even if it was just a small package? 
 
 Mr. George. Oh, yes ; we do not ask the size of it ; we go after it 
 whether it weighs a pound or 100 pounds or 500. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you describe your delivery system, stating 
 in what territory you deliver and in just what instances you send a 
 notice to the addressee to call, and under just what circumstances 
 you turn packages over to the Merchants' Transfer & Storage Co. 
 for delivery through their parcel-delivery department? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, we cover in the delivery the same area of ter- 
 ritory that we do in the call service and pick-up service. 
 
 The Chairman. 30 square miles? 
 
 Mr. George. Approximately. That takes in Georgetown, of 
 course. And all matter bearing local address is delivered to the 
 consignee's house or place of business in that section. If we fail 
 to find the consignee or proper representative of the consignee or 
 authorized person to receive that package at that number for him, 
 we bring it back to the office and mail a notice, a regular postal card, 
 which conveys to him the information that we have such package, 
 that it was offered and no one to receive it, or we could not find him 
 at that address. That is done within 24 hours of the time the pack- 
 age has been offered for delivery or the effort to deliver has been 
 made. 
 
 The Chairman. In an instance of that kind, after the postal card 
 has been sent, do you require the addressee to then come to the office 
 and receive the packet, or will you, upon the addressee's request, 
 again deliver to the point he designates, and in that event do you 
 make an extra charge? 
 
 Mr. George. We do not if he returns that postal card to us advis- 
 ing us as to where he wants the package delivered, or in case the 
 address on the package should be wrong we make a second delivery 
 without anv additional charge. 
 
 The Chairman. In cases outside of your 30-square-mile district 
 what is your method of procedure ? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, we turn the business destined to an address out- 
 side of our free-deliverv limits over to the Merchants' Transfer & 
 Storage Co. ; I think that is the title of the concern, and they make 
 the deliveries, collect our charges, and their own local charge in 
 addition. 
 
 The Chairman. Their local charge for their activity is collected 
 by them direct from the addressee ? 
 
1170 PAECEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Geokge. From the consignee; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You have no contract with them whereby you pay 
 them anything? 
 
 Mr. Geokge. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Your contract is that they take this business at 
 their own risk? 
 
 Mr. George. That is right. 
 
 The Chairman. In your acceptance of a package for some far- 
 away point the receipt of the charge by your agent, the price paid 
 by the sender, is supposed to cover the whole cost of the transporta- 
 tion up to the point of delivery to the addressee, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. George. Within the free-delivery limits of that city. If 
 destined to a town where we have no delivery, of course the charge 
 covers the delivery of the package to that particular office or rail- 
 road station. 
 
 The Chairman. Does your receipt so designate ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir; it says that the package is to be carried to 
 the nearest station to destination, or nearest express office to desti- 
 nation. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any data to show what percentage of 
 the parcels you collect are addressed for local delivery and what 
 percentage of the parcels collected pass out of your jurisdicton? 
 
 Mr. George. You mean the percentage of packages that are ad- 
 dressed outside of our delivery limit? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. George. Oh, the percentage is very small. I have not looked 
 into that closely, but I should say it would not average over 20 
 pieces a day. 
 
 The Chairman. Out of an average of how many per day? 
 
 Mr. George. Out of an average of from 1,500 to 2,000. 
 
 The Chairman. Are those articles that are addressed to those 
 living within the district? 
 
 Mr. George. No; living outside of our delivery limit. They may 
 be addressed to parties living inside of the District, but outside of 
 our limit. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, in your contract or receipt do you specify 
 just what your free-delivery limits are, or is it simply stated in gen- 
 eral terms, " Within our delivery limits " ? 
 
 Mr. George. Just in general terms. It does not specify the deliv- 
 ery limits in various cities. In fact, we only have delivery limits 
 in few cities. 
 
 Senator Bristoav. Do you really obligate yourself in your receipt, 
 or your contract, to deliver the article other than to your office or 
 your warehouse to the city where it is destined? You do not agree 
 to deliver it around the city ? 
 
 Mr. George. No ; we do not agree to deliver it to the addressee. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But you do that as an additional service in 
 certain cities? 
 
 Mr. George. As a matter of accommodation, pure and simple. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you a complete tariff sheet of your company 
 with you ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir ; my tariff clerk has. 
 
 The Chairman. You fully understand this tariff sheet, do you? 
 
PARCEL POST. 1171 
 
 Mr. George. Well, I can not say that I fully understand that one. 
 I can quote most any rate out of that you might ask me. 
 
 The Chairman. How many of the regular employees under your 
 order have, in your judgment, a complete knowledge of the tariff 
 sheet ? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, I think all the employees that have use for the 
 tariff under our present system in Washington understand it. 
 
 The Chairman. Does each one of your offices in the United States 
 have separate tariff sheets, or do they all have this tariff sheet, as- 
 suming that this particular one is the latest one that has been issued 
 by the Adams Express Co. ? 
 
 Mr. George. They have it in that same form, but, of course, the 
 rates would all figure out differently from all cities. The form, how- 
 ever, is the same. That is the universal form. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the universal form, but the rates in each 
 differ, depending upon the locality ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. So that the general form is taken and made up 
 and then the rates are written in ? 
 
 Mr. George. Written in or supplied from the tariff bureau at New 
 York City. 
 
 The Chairman. For each office? 
 
 Mr. George. For each individual office. 
 
 The Chairman. How many offices have the Adams and Southern 
 Express Cos. in the United States, if you have that information? 
 
 Mr. George. I haven't got the information now. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You say you have a rate sheet for every office ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir ; that same rate book you will find in every 
 office. 
 
 Senator Bristow. There is a rate book for every office, -but how 
 does the agent ascertain the rate from his office to destination ? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, here, Senator, is a rate to New Hampshire, for 
 example. 
 
 Senator Bristow. From where ? 
 
 Mr. George. From Washington. These rates are applied from 
 Washington. 
 
 Senator Bristow. All of those apply from Washington ? 
 
 Mr. George. All of these apply from Washington to these destina- 
 tions. Of course this rate would not apply from Baltimore. Take, 
 for example, the rate from here to New York, which would be differ- 
 ent from the rate from Baltimore to New York. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You do not have one of those for every office in 
 the United States? 
 
 Mr. George. Oh, no, indeed. Only the Washington rate. That is 
 the onlv rate we have here. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But the company does not have a book like that 
 for every office? 
 
 Mr. George. A book like this for every office. 
 
 The Chairman. The general form being the same, but the rates all 
 differing, depending on each office? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Each individual office of all the offices in the 
 United States? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
1172 PAECEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. A book like that for each one? 
 
 Mr. George. A book like that for each one. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Made for each office? 
 
 Mr. George. Made for each office, supplied by the tariff bureau to 
 each office. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, the company's tariff bureau in New York? 
 
 Mr. George. In New York. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Is not that an enormous work? 
 
 Mr. George. It is so ; but you could not go without it, Senator ; it 
 contains rates to probably 30,000 points. The tariff before you now 
 is a tariff to all points of the Adams Express Co. and to all points in 
 the United States where more than one express company is repre- 
 sented, and that is the size of it. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Does this cover points not reached by the Adams 
 Express Co.? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes. But in a different part of the book all of these 
 points are reached by the Adams Express Co., and they are desig- 
 nated by the white sheets. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose there is a change in the rate from any 
 town — we will say from Alexandria? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, if there is a change from Alexandria, to Rich- 
 mond, for example, Alexandria and Richmond both will be advised 
 by the tariff bureau of that change. It would not concern Washing- 
 ton, of course ; it only concerns the two offices. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And they would take this book made up for 
 these two offices and make the notations ? 
 
 Mr. George. They would make the corrections. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you n copy of your tariff book here you could 
 leave with the committee to assist them in studying the parcel post, 
 to see what, if any, information contained therein would, in the 
 opinion of the committee, be of value to them in the particular study 
 they are now making? 
 
 Mr. Georce. Why, we could very readily satisfy you with all those 
 forms of tariff if it is satisfactory to the express company, which I 
 presume it is. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly ascertain if it is ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir; we can supply all the copies. Of course, the 
 rates would not be inserted, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you object to giving us one in which the 
 rates are inserted, or would you object to letting us have the use of 
 one in which the rates were inserted ? I think that would be of value 
 to us. 
 
 Mr. George. We are very short of those now. We are very short 
 of them and we are trying to supply all of our people with one of 
 these complete tariffs, and it means a great deal of work and expense ; 
 but we are doing it as rapidly as possible, making all corrections from 
 time to time, and I think we could furnish you with this tariff. Per- 
 haps we have an, extra one in the office with the rates inserted. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If you had a system of rate making whereby the 
 rates were fixed upon distances — uniform throughout the country; 
 that is, a rate for 40 miles, which was the same from any one office, say 
 40, 50, or 150 miles, as it is from any other office in the United 
 States — it would greatly simplify your rate making, would it not? 
 
PAKCEL POST. 1178 
 
 Mr. George. It would simplify it, but to figure out the distances 
 you would be just as much at sea as we are in our rates at present. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose you had it within the matter of zones, 
 we will say anything within a radius of 50 miles of the station of 
 Washington should be sd much. 
 
 Mr. George. Well, if you would specify the rates between all of the 
 eastern cities east of the Ohio River and the Pennsylvania and Ohio 
 State line would be so much, and beyond the Ohio State line so much, 
 the Missouri River would be so much, that would be easy enough, but 
 where you draw a circle, for example, representing or showing the 
 various zones, and base your rates on mileage you would have an 
 awful time in figuring out whether that comes within the dollar limit 
 cr the dollar and a half limit, and so on. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose you had a map that showed just what 
 towns were within each circle? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, it would necessitate the bill clerk, who bills prob- 
 ably just as fast as he possibly can, going up to that map in each case 
 and see whether that town is inside of the circle or outside. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The bill clerk receives the packages and enters 
 them up and makes a record of them. 
 
 Mr. George. No; he does not receive them. The bill clerk is the 
 man who makes the manifest which accompanies the shipment to des- 
 tination and shows the article and the weight; in some instances it 
 shows the shipper's name, if it appears on the shipment; the con- 
 signee's name and the charges, whether to be collected at destination 
 or whether prepaid at this end. 
 
 The Chairman. Just repeat that again. Let me see what work the 
 bill clerk does. 
 
 Mr. George. The bill clerk makes the manifest or waybill which 
 accompanies the shipment from the starting point to destination. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What is the purpose of that? What is the use 
 of it? 
 
 Mr. George. The use of it, in the first place, is to show the destina- 
 tion — that is, whether the shipment is prepaid or collect. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If everything was paid for and there wasn't 
 any collecting, but the package had to be paid for here, why would 
 there be any use for this manifest ? 
 
 Mr. George. You would have to make a record of the transaction, 
 otherwise you would not know whether such shipment left the city, 
 for example, for Chicago. We must necessarily make a record, and 
 when we make that manifest, the waybill, that is our record. We 
 keep a copy of it at this office and the original accompanies the 
 shipment. If we did not make any such manifest, we would never- 
 theless have to make a record showing that we receipted to you for 
 such shipment, and if a question arose as to what we did with it, if 
 we had no record we would not know whether it went out to-day, 
 to-morrow, or when, if at all. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Then this clerk that you speak of receives the 
 packages, does he not ? 
 
 Mr. George. No; the clerk I refer to is the man who makes out 
 the manifest record after it reaches our warehouse. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If you have the clerk who receives the article, 
 he makes a record of having received it. 
 
1174 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. George. No, sir ; he issues a receipt and he hasn't any further 
 record. You carry that receipt out of the office. There is no fur- 
 ther record of that package until this bill clerk at the terminal here 
 or forwarding warehouse makes the record and manifest. That is 
 either made in carbon copy, or at some offices we take press copy 
 from that original manifest and from that record we make our ac- 
 counting to the auditor. If a shipment is prepaid, it so shows on 
 this manifest. All those manifests are reported on a certain form 
 and the amount of money shown on them as having been collected 
 here on prepaid shipments is submitted with that report to the 
 cashier or auditor of the respective companies. If the waybill reads, 
 " Collect," the auditors or the treasurer or cashier will look for a 
 settlement of the revenue on that shipment from the destination 
 agent, because our office shows it was forwarded collect. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What I was trying to get at, so far as the postal 
 service was concerned, what would be the use of this bill clerk you 
 speak of ? Under the present system we have no such methods. 
 
 The Chairman. The difference is this : The receipt is for the pro- 
 tection of the public. With the express company the manifest is for 
 the protection of the company itself, as between employees and in- 
 formation in the nature of tracer in case anything is lost or stolen. 
 
 Mr. George. And the accounting. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The account is kept much more in detail than it 
 is in the packages sent by mail ? 
 
 Mr. George. There is no record of this sender at all. 
 
 The Chairman. The express company has not the machinery the 
 Government has in its postal department. Let me ask you, in that 
 connection, Mr. George, if it was possible to evolve a plan by which 
 the express companies could thus eliminate receipts for the shipper 
 and manifests for the company's own information and protection, 
 how much could you reduce your charge for the activity in per 
 cent? 
 
 Mr. George. Oh, very materially; very materially. Of course, if 
 we could permit the public to come in and simply affix a stamp to 
 that particular shipment and dump it in our warehouse and go away,' 
 and in case of loss we would not be able to tell them whether we 
 saw that package or whether we did see it or whether we loaded it 
 for Chicago or Boston there would be a material reduction. 
 
 The Chairman. If the express company had the same privilege 
 the Government gives to the postal system in its operation 
 
 Mr. George. Without liability ? 
 
 The Chairman. Without liability, except where there was an in-, 
 surance fee especially attached and charged for, what percentage 
 could you, in your judgment, reduce your charge for any activities 
 to-day? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, I would not attempt to answer, except to say 
 that it would reduce it very materially, very materially. I would not 
 care to make any estimates. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It would be impossible. 
 
 Mr. George. It would be impossible for this reason: If we do 
 away with our loss and damage account we would not be liable for 
 anything unless it was insured. 
 
 The Chairman. It is perfectly possible for the accounting to reach 
 a conclusive and practically safe deduction, don't vou think? 
 
PAECEL POST. 1175 
 
 Mr. George. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. How long, ordinarily, do you figure it takes a new 
 employee to familiarize himself with a "tariff sheet? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, that depends on how he applies himself. Some 
 of them could gather sufficient knowledge to quote a rate accu- 
 rately 
 
 The Chairman. Without reference? 
 
 Mr. George. No; never without reference, but with reference to 
 the tariff, in three or four days' experience. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, how long, in your experience here in the 
 Washington office, how many seconds of time are, on an average, 
 consumed by your representative studying his tariff sheet and ascer- 
 taining the charge to be made? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, that comes to a man by continuous work on 
 that billing. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, a minute? 
 
 Mr. George. He will commit a rate to memory to-day which he 
 looked up yesterday ; probably a new point comes up to-day and he 
 will have to commit that to memory. Finally, an experienced bill 
 clerk gets so he will not have to refer to this tariff at all. 
 
 The Chairman. He knows the rates in his mind? 
 
 Mr. George. He gets them fixed in his mind. For example, from 
 here to Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York. Chicago, Boston, St. 
 Louis, and all of the principal cities, I could myself quote rates to 
 them all without reference to the tariff. Take, for example, a new 
 man who never saw a tariff or who never worked in an express office,' 
 it would take him a week or two weeks or probably a month to 
 become acquainted. 
 
 The Chairman. To become ordinarily familiar? 
 
 Mr. George. To become ordinarily familiar. 
 
 The Chairman. And in a great many instances he would have to 
 refer to the tariff sheet itself? 
 
 Mr. George. If it should happen to be a destination that he is not 
 handling every day. 
 
 The Chairman. How much of his time would be occupied in sec- 
 onds or minutes, probably, for the one ascertainment? 
 
 Mr. George. Why, I could teach any man to make a rate — for 
 example, to this point in Kansas, in two minutes, in a minute — any 
 rate given there. For example, there is a rate for 100 pounds to 
 Walnut, Kans.- 
 
 The Chairman. You say roughly there are some 30,000 rates or 
 offices designated in this sheet? 
 
 Mr. George. Not in this sheet; no. In the two. There is what 
 we call foreign tariffs. It includes all points to which the Adams 
 Express Co. does not go direct. This tariff we use as a basing tariff. 
 It tells you the rates from the principal transfer points to which 
 we would carry that particular shipment for transfer, to the acting 
 carrier. 
 
 The Chairman. How long would it take one of your new em- 
 ployees to familiarize himself with this joint basing transfer tariff? 
 Much longer than with your own tariff here ? 
 
 Mr. George. With constant application, Senator, he should be 
 familiar with it inside of a week or ten days, if he had nothing else 
 
 587T3— vol 5—12 2 
 
1176 PARCEL POST. 
 
 to do. The trouble with our people is they have a good many duties 
 to perform and they can not spend all their time on the tariff, but a 
 man paid to give his time to the tariff and quote the rate to the public 
 xrill familiarize himself with this tariff in a few days. 
 
 The Chairman. Taking all of your tariffs, your joint transfer 
 tariffs as well as your own offices, altogether, you reach some 30,000 
 different points and have some 30,000 tariffs, although many of them 
 may be just exactly the same. But you have rates between Wash- 
 ington and 30,000 other offices, do you not ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Of your own? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And those that y ou transfer with ? 
 
 Mr. George. All other companies. 
 
 The Chairman. That is in the United States only, or all over the 
 world ? 
 
 Mr. George. United States and Canada. 
 
 The Chairman. Thirty thousand ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. How often do you get out your tariff sheets — 
 (■nee a year? 
 
 Mr. George. No. We get corrections almost daily between various 
 points. We may not get a correction applying to Washington partic- 
 ularly once a month, but the correction may affect two or half a 
 dozen or more points outside of Washington. 
 
 The Chairman. That you transfer from ? 
 
 Mr. George. Transfer from, changing the basing point or the rate 
 from such basing point. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any specified time in months or years 
 where your tariff department in New York makes out an entirely 
 new tariff sheet applicable to all your offices, or was the one that you 
 have now in existence made up a number of years ago and corrected 
 from time to time ? 
 
 Mr. Gforge. That tariff thnt we have in effect now is the effect of 
 the interstate-commerce law. All of these, as you will see by the 
 headlines, are submitted to the Interstate Commerce Commission and 
 are authorized " I. C. C. 781," etc., " Canceling I. C. C. 766." Entirely 
 new tariffs are never provided, but corrections are issued from time 
 to time. 
 
 The Chairman. And this present tariff, the skeleton form 
 
 Mr. George. The foundation was laid five or six years ago. 
 
 The Chairman. By direction of the Interstate Commerce Com- 
 mission ? 
 
 Mr. George. By direction of the Interstate Commerce Commission. 
 I do not know that they directed the form exactly, but they sub- 
 scribed to these rates as filed, of course. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you increase or abolish many offices per year? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes; a good many. We open quite a number, many 
 new ones, and we close some of the old ones. 
 
 The Chairman. In your judgment, what would be the number, 
 roughly estimated ? 
 
 Mr. George. I would not care to answer, Senator. I think the rate 
 clerk would be more capable to answer that. In three months' time 
 
PARCEL POST. 1177 
 
 vefclosed and opened five offices in the. State of Illinois — that is, we 
 nade five changes in that State in three months. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there many clerical errors made in fixing the 
 •ates — that is, the charges by any of your employees due to care- 
 essness ? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, all our errors are really through the carelessness 
 )f employees, I think. 
 
 The Chairman. Taking into consideration the number of transac- 
 ;ions, is there any appreciable percentage where errors creep in? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, I can only speak for my own office, Senator, but 
 mder our system in effect at Washington I make up daily statements 
 for my own information as to the errors, and in the number of ship- 
 ments handled outbound, prepaid shipments, numbering possibly 
 anywhere from fifteen to eighteen hundred pieces, errors are any- 
 where from 5 to 10. On the inbound business, delivered in Washing- 
 ton, we handle approximately 2,000 pieces per day, and the errors in 
 that business are in about the same proportion, an y where from 5 to 
 LO, where we find that the wrong rate has been applied, either before 
 the shipment leaves the warehouse, by the driver, or that it was 
 written up " Collect " by mistake instead of " Prepaid." 
 
 The Chairman. How do these errors come to your notice? 
 Through the sender ? Through the addressee ? Or through your own 
 attention being drawn to it in the accounting office through tin 
 manifest ? 
 
 Mr. George. It depends entirely, Senator, on the nature of the 
 Brror. Those chargeable to our own employees are brought to my 
 notice through the checking or accounting department in preparing 
 ar checking the item against the manifest to see whether both the 
 collection from the consignee and the charge as way-billed or mani- 
 fested was correct in accordance with the tariff. In other instances 
 i shipment might be delivered which contained apples, or it might 
 contain fresh meat, but not so marked, and there will be no indica- 
 tion of what the contents are. and in that case -tie assess a merchandise 
 rate. When we offer that to the consignee, he will say, " Here, the 
 last time you brought that shipment here you only charged me 35 
 cents, and now you charge me 50 cents." The driver will then ask 
 him the question, "Are they apples, butter, eggs, or fresh meat? " 
 'Those things are subject to a special rate, and therefore we must 
 make the correction." That correction, as a rule, is made then and 
 there by the driver, or often then and there the consignee will prob- 
 ably call us on the telephone or write us a letter on the subject and 
 sve will make the refund. 
 
 The Chairman. Do your patrons, as a rule, ask to see the printed 
 tariff sheets, or do they pay just what the clerk tells them ? 
 
 Mr. George. From my observation in the various offices — of course, 
 [ only go to the offices occasionally— I do not believe one man in a 
 housand refers to the tariff on file. 
 
 The Chairman. Could you describe briefly and succinctly the 
 lifferent classes into which express matter is divided, or could you 
 ell generally about how many classes express matter is divided into 
 inder your classification sheet ? 
 
 Mr. George. I could not without counting over the classification. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there over 100 or under 100 ? 
 
1178 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. George. Yes ; possibly over 100 different classes. In taking the 
 100 different rates, understand, Senator, that I mean 100 classifica- 
 tions or over. 
 
 The Chairman. What is your minimum rate on any class? 
 
 Mr. George. The class of merchandise? You see the rates vary as 
 to the commodity. The minimum rate on a shipment of marketing, 
 eatables of most any kind, fruits or vegetables, will have a minimum 
 rate of 35 cents unless there is a graduated charge under the mer- 
 chandise rate, which would make it lower; then we give the shipper 
 the benefit of the lower rate. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the lowest minimum rate under that condi- 
 tion is what? 
 
 Mr. George. Twenty-five cents. 
 
 The Chairman. Twenty-five cents is the lowest charge that the 
 Adams Express or the Southern Express makes for any package, 
 regardless or size, initiating in Washington and regardless of the 
 point of delivery? 
 
 Mr. George. On that class of business, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. That is on market produce? 
 
 Mr. George. Market produce; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the minimum rate, the lowest charge made 
 by the Adams Express or Southern Express on any packet bearing 
 the lowest charge, and the lowest classification initiating in Wash- 
 ington regardless of the point of delivery? 
 
 Mr. George. I prefer you would ask the rate clerk for that. There 
 are three or four sections known as A, B, C, and D. It is 10 cents, but 
 I can not name what section that rate comes under. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you can not answer the question off-hand, 
 and prefer that we ask the rate clerk for this information ? 
 
 Mr. George. I prefer you would get this from the rate clerk. I 
 might make a mistake in the sections. 
 
 The Chairman. What territory is covered by the Adams and the 
 Southern Express Co/s in the United States? Do they cover the 
 whole of the United States.- or what territory? Have you that infor- 
 mation ? 
 
 Mr. George. No, sir ; I haven't got it accurately. The Southern Ex- 
 press Co. covers all points on the Southern Railway system, the Sea- 
 board Air Line, the Atlantic Coast Line, the Central of Georgia, and 
 a part of the Louisville & Nashville, and what other roads might be 
 down through the Southern States ; it covers the Southern States al- 
 most exclusively. In other words, they operate exclusively in the 
 South. 
 
 The Chairman. And the Adams? 
 
 Mr. George. The Adams operates in the New England States and 
 east of the Missouri River. 
 
 The Chairman. And in close affiliation or cooperation with the 
 Southern and connecting companies? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Where two or more companies operate in the 
 same territory clo they, by agreement, make a division of the business 
 or have relations with each other so that there is an apportionment 
 of the business in settlements between the companies? 
 
 Mr. George. Not to my knowledge, Senator. 
 
PAECEL POST. 1179 
 
 The Chairman. You receive here at the Washington office for the 
 Adams or the Southern any express matter to be delivered at any 
 point in this country or abroad and issue a receipt and collect the 
 charges ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Resting assured that vou will be able to make the 
 transfer to some other company at the end of your route, and that 
 the apportionment of the charges will be settled at the end of the 
 period as between your company and the company completing the 
 transaction? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you receive for points all over the world or 
 only for certain European countries and certain points designated ? 
 
 Mr. George. I think our tariff 
 
 The Chairman. Prescribes the limits? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes ; it prescribes the limits, and I think it includes 
 the rates to nearly all foreign countries. 
 
 The Chairman. So with foreign countries the tariff is based on 
 the tariff of the country itself, and your tariff is the same regardless 
 of the point in the country to which delivery is to be made ? 
 
 Mr. George. No; it varies. 
 
 The Chairman. It A^aries according to weight? 
 
 Mr. George. It varies according to weight ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. But I notice here it contains Great Britain? 
 
 Mr. George. Liverpool and London. 
 
 The^ Chairman. All other places in England, Scotland, Ireland, 
 and "Wales have a different rate from Liverpool or London? 
 
 Mr. George. No; that rate applies to Liverpool, London, and all 
 other places in England. 
 
 The Chairman. And this particular sheet to any point in Eng- 
 land, outside of Liverpool and London; you would have a common 
 rate for any other point in England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales? 
 
 Mr. George. Based on the weight ; yes, sir. This rate added to our 
 rate from here to New York or the port of entry, subject, of course, 
 to brokerage fees, customs duties, and so forth. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you state in a general way the sections of 
 the country in which certain express companies are predominant. 
 Name them and designate the particular territory that they dominate 
 by sole occupation? 
 
 Mr. George. In this country, you n?ean, Senator ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. George. Well, as stated before, the Southern practically oper- 
 ates through the entire South. 
 
 The Chairman. No other express companies operate there except 
 the Southern ; is that correct ? 
 
 Mr. George. That is so in the State of Florida, Georgia, North 
 and South Carolina, and, I think, Alabama. The American Ex- 
 press Co. touches the Illinois Central down in there at some point, 
 but in those four States entirely, except Georgia, because Atlanta is 
 not exclusive to the Southern. 
 
 The Chairman. How do the companies with which you transfer 
 segregate the charges so that each company gets its proportional 
 amount for the payment of the activity ? 
 
1180 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. George. Well, I do not know that I am well enough informed 
 to answer that. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a matter settled in the New York office? 
 
 Mr. George. In the auditing departments of the various express 
 companies. But it is my understanding that the division of charges 
 is based on the local rate to and from the points at which the transfer 
 is made from one company to another as against the through rate. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose you were to ship from Washington City, 
 say, to Seattle, State of Washington. How would you route that? 
 How many companies would that packet delivered here pass over? 
 
 Mr. George. Only two. 
 
 The Chairman. Being which? 
 
 Mr. George. The Adams and the Great Northern. 
 
 The Chairman. Where would you deliver that packet to the Great 
 Northern ? 
 
 Mr. George. I should have to refer to the tariff to tell you that. 
 St. Paul, I believe, is the transfer point from the Adams to the Great 
 Northern. 
 
 The Chairman. Would the charge that you would make to the 
 shipper here equal the charge that would be made, provided that 
 that packet was delivered to an addressee in St. Paul and then re- 
 shipped by the addressee in St. Paul to the addressee in Seattle, 
 Wash.? In other words, if there was the dual transaction instead 
 of the continuous one by transfer, would the charge be the same ? 
 
 Mr. George. No; the charge would be higher if it required a re- 
 shipment from St. Paul to destination as against the through trans- 
 portation to Seattle from Washington. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, to make the segregation of the collection 
 that you made here with a continuous shipment by transfer at St. 
 Paul, you delivering for the Adams Express Co. to the Great North- 
 ern at St. Paul, how do you reach the reduction in the through rate 
 over what the aggregate of the two local rates would be? In other 
 words, for a concrete example or illustration, if you charge $1.50 to 
 ship a packet from Washington City to Seattle, State of Washing- 
 ton, and if your rate from here to St. Paul on the same classification 
 and the same weight was 90 cents and the rate from St. Paul to 
 Seattle, Wash., on the same classification and same weight was 90 
 cents, there would be an apparent difference of 30 cents between the 
 aggregate of the two local rates and the joint through rate. How 
 is that 30 cents difference adjusted as between the two companies, 
 the Adams and the Great Northern ? 
 
 Mr. George. I could not answer that. That is accounting work. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any idea, knowledge, or impression as 
 to whether the division of collections on joint business is made on a 
 distance basis or not ? Is that the sole determinate factor ? 
 
 Mr. George. My understanding is the division of earnings is based 
 on— well, I really can not answer whether it is based on mileage or 
 gross earnings based on local rates to local transfer point as against 
 a through rate. 
 
 The Chairman. Taking any two points in the United States, can 
 you tell the committee the greatest number of companies that a 
 shipment would have to pass through or the transfers, one to the 
 other, to connect between these two points? 
 
PARCEL POST. 1181 
 
 Mr. George. I dan not think of any point in the United States but 
 what can be reached by two companies. 
 
 The Chairman. There would only have to be one transfer ? 
 
 Mr. George. One transfer. There may be some isolated cases, but 
 I can not think of any important point in the United States that can 
 not be reached over the lines of two companies by one transfer. That 
 transfer might be at St. Louis, Chicago, or Kansas City, west bound, 
 or New York east bound, where it would reach all companies oper- 
 ating in the East and Northeast. 
 
 The Chairman. Where there is more than one company operating 
 from a given point, the patron himself decides, does he not, which 
 company he will patronize? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, as a rule, yes. However, in Washington, and, 
 1 think, it is a custom in other cities, if we receive a call from your 
 house for shipment by express and we make the call and we discover 
 that the destination is one on the line of our competitor we, neverthe- 
 less, bring your package in and make what we term a local transfer 
 tothe company that can make the delivery direct. We do that every 
 day in Washington ; we pick up — I do not know how many, but can 
 say safely 10 or 15 pieces. 
 
 The Chairman. Out of a total of possibly 4,000 in and out ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes; in and out. However, this would refer only to 
 the outbound business. 
 
 The Chairman. Out of a total of 2,000 pieces, then? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes ; we might pick up anywhere from 10 to 15 pieces 
 on which we make a local transfer to the United Express Co., if the 
 destination is in their territory. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you charge the United States Express Co. for 
 that delivery here? 
 
 Mr. George. No. 
 
 The Chairman. It is a courtesy between the companies ? 
 
 Mr. Giorge. It is a courtesy between the companies for the benefit 
 of the shipper. 
 
 The Chairman. And the United States Express Co. would recipro- 
 cate in the same way ? 
 
 Mr. George. They do. 
 
 The Chairman. It is for the general protection of the express busi- 
 ness as a special business ? 
 
 Mr. George. And the accommodation of the patrons of both com- 
 panies; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You give receipts for all packages ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you a copy of the receipt, such as is given? 
 
 Mr. George. Here are two. 
 
 (Mr. George here filed with the committee a copy of the receipt 
 of the Adams and of the Southern Express Cos.) 
 
 The Chairman. Is it customary to stamp on the receipt the value 
 asked and not given? 
 
 Mr. George. If the value is asked and no specific value declared, 
 we stamp the receipt, " Value asked and not given." 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose a shipper comes in and makes no declara- 
 tion for value, there is none written on the package. Does the re- 
 ceiving-clerk always ask the value? 
 
1182 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. George. Those are his instructions to do so, and it is invari- 
 ably done; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Those are the instructions of the company ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. The reason being for the protection of the com- 
 pany ? 
 
 Mr. George. The reason for that is, in the absence of any declared 
 value, of course the receipt itself limits our liability to $50 on that 
 particular shipment. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you find any objection on the part of the 
 patrons to stating the value of a package? 
 
 Mr. George. No; not from what you might call the occasional 
 shipper. They invariably declare the value ; business houses do not. 
 
 The Chairman. I assume they possibly figure that the extra insur- 
 ance or rate — they underwrite themselves, in effect? 
 
 Mr. George. Carry their own insurance, as it were. 
 
 The Chairman. By taking the lowest rate ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you found any objection, appreciable, from 
 any number of patrons to forms of receipts issued by the companies? 
 
 Mr. George. No. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you describe the system of routing packages 
 out of Washington, taking one of the far-distant points in the United 
 States, and the nature and compensation of the employees engaged in 
 this work, and how much* ability and experience is required to per- 
 form the work in a satisfactory way? 
 
 Mr. George. The routing of the package is not left to the em- 
 ployee who receipts for the package ; as, for example, the driver pick- 
 ing up a shipment for San Francisco would have nothing to do with 
 the routing; that is regulated after the package reaches the terminal 
 warehouse. 
 
 The Chairman. Here in Washington? 
 
 Mr. George. Here in Washington. The foreman in charge or em- 
 ployee detailed to look after that particular work would undoubtedly, 
 if a package is destined to San Francisco, route it by way of Chi- 
 cago and Denver. If it was Cincinnati, Ohio, they would route it 
 by the C. & O. Railway direct from Washington; if to Boston, it 
 would be loaded in a car running direct from Washington to Boston. 
 The experience necessary for a driver to pick up or an employee to 
 pick up certain packages in the city of Washington 
 
 The Chairman. Is more manual than clerical ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. But the experience for a man in the office who 
 makes the routing, that does not require any? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes; he has to be an experienced man, and it would 
 require years of experience on the part of an employee to properly 
 route or assort for proper forwarding the thousands of pieces that 
 pass through the warehouse daily for the various lines, because he 
 must know whether such point is on the Seaboard Air Line or the 
 Coast Line, or what railroad diverging from Washington. 
 
 The Chairman. What would probably be his compensation per 
 annum '( 
 
 Mr. George. Well, anywhere from $900 up. 
 
 The Chairman. Up to what? 
 
PARCEL POST. 1183 
 
 Mr. George. $75 a month to $100 a month. 
 The Chairman. What hours of service per day ? 
 Mr. George. Well, they usually put in anywhere from 10 to 11 
 hours; not longer than that. We have two forces, a night and a 
 day force. 
 The Chairman. Two shifts? 
 Mr. George. Two shifts; yes, sir. . 
 
 The Chairman. And you figure that the two shifts will so. co- 
 operate together that they will cover the 24 hours ? 
 
 Mr. George. Twenty-four hours, and it may be some of them will 
 work from 6 a. m. to 5 p. m. ; others come on at 8 and work until 
 7. That depends entirely on the schedule of trains, etc. There may 
 be a number of trains leaving between the hours of 6 and 7, when it 
 requires the combined efforts to handle the business. 
 
 The Chairman. They work six days a week, or do they work on 
 Sundays, too? 
 Mr. George. Well, they work on Sundays — that is, alternately. 
 The Chairman. So that you cover every day in the month and 
 every day in the year, the same as the mail ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir; the same as the mail. We never have any 
 holidays. 
 
 The Chairman. The actual holidays are possibly the peak of your 
 load, your greatest activity? 
 Mr. George. Indeed they are; Christmas, for example. 
 The Chairman. Do you transact foreign business? 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any idea as to the probable proportion 
 of foreign business to the total amount of business compared with 
 the home business? By home business I mean the United States 
 proper. 
 
 Mr. George. I have not. That is entirely foreign to my duties, 
 and I do not know anything about it. 
 The Chairman. Do } 7 ou waj'bill every shipment? 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Does the transfer to another company necessitate 
 the issuance of another waybill? 
 Mr. George. No, sir ; not under our present system. 
 The Chairman. Would it be agreeable, and could you easily fur- 
 nish the committee with a copy of the forms used in the transporta- 
 tion of a package and a copy also of the forms of books used in count- 
 ing up the charges paid on a package, with explanatory notes which 
 would make the method of using them plain? I want to state we 
 are not investigating the express company in any wajr, shape, or 
 
 form, but it is an ascertainment we are trying to get 
 
 Mr. George. The investigation is done at the other end of the town. 
 The Chairman. I want to get as much information as possible for 
 the use of the committee as to your methods, in order that the com- 
 mittee may determine how much, if any, of your experience we can 
 profit by in our deductions in the study we are making. 
 
 Mr. George. I will be glad indeed to furnish you all that informa- 
 tion, assuming, of course, it is satisfactory to the express company, 
 and the committee has authority to get it, and I will be at your 
 service. 
 
1184 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. I thank you. Do you invariably require the pre- 
 payment on packages of expressage ? 
 
 Mr. George. On packages evidently not worth the charges we do, 
 but on no other class of business. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there a difference in charge where prepayment 
 is made to that where it is taken C. O. D. 
 
 Mr. George. Not on ordinary business. There is a section in our 
 classification, known as section A, B, C, and D, business which will 
 only be accepted where prepaid, because of it being carried at a lower 
 rate than the merchandise rate, that applies to printed matter, books, 
 and pamphlets, samples of merchandise, including jewelry, etc. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a lower rate ? 
 
 Mr. George. A lower rate, and because of such lower rate we exact 
 prepayment. 
 
 The Chairman. Do your companies do any commission business; 
 that is, do you receive goods and handle them in the way of their 
 disposition outside of delivering them to the addressees? 
 
 Mr. George. Neither one of the companies which I represent do. 
 I believe that some other companies do that kind of work, but we 
 do not. 
 
 The Chairman. Do either of your companies perform personal 
 services, such as attending to the recording of deeds and bonds. If 
 so, under what conditions and what compensation ? 
 
 Mr. George. We do that as provided for under one of the classi- 
 fications. I do not recall to mind what charges we make, but we 
 perform such service when requested. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you sell travelers' checks? 
 
 Mr. George. We do not. We sell money orders. We expect to 
 sell travelers' checks later on. 
 
 The Chairman. Neither the Adams nor the Southern ? 
 
 Mr. George. Both companies sell money orders, but not travelers' 
 checks as yet. 
 
 The Chairman. What difference and distinction do you make 
 between a money order and traveler's check? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, I can not answer that question, because we are 
 not selling travelers' checks as yet, and I have not read up on con- 
 siderations applicable to travelers' checks. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you transport currency, coin, and bullion ? 
 
 Mr. George. We do. 
 
 The Chairman. You have a regular tariff for that class of business? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. That tariff increases in amount according to the 
 increased liability ? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, the charge is based on the merchandise rate; 
 that is, the currency rate is based on the merchandise rate. Take, for 
 example, between here and New York; the rate f©r currency would 
 be 35 cents per thousand. Of course on a $5,000 shipment the rate 
 would be five times 35 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. But you do not open those packages; thev are 
 sealed? Suppose a shipping company had given you $10,000 in 
 currency actually in the package, and he marked it $2,000 ; you charge 
 him 70 cents? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You are only liable for $2,000 if it is lost? 
 
PARCEL POST. 1185 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir; we sign for the shipment sealed and said to 
 contain that amount of money. 
 
 The Chairman. You would prefer, would you not, to know the 
 contents or the actual value in all cases so as to get the actual com- 
 pensation that would be due, based upon actual value ? It would be 
 to your interest ? 
 
 Mr. George. It would be to our interest, and the shipper would be 
 complying with the law really. In other words, if he offers us a 
 package containing $10,000 and marks it $2,000, he is undervaluing 
 his shipment and violates the law, naturally. We would prefer to 
 have him tell us exactly the contents of that package, for which we 
 would be glad to be responsible and charge him accordingly. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there a law that requires the shipper to declare 
 the actual value of a package ? 
 
 Mr George. There is a law ; interstate commerce, section 10, pro- 
 vides that a shipper undervaluing his packages is subject to a pen- 
 alty — that is, if he knowingly and willfully undervalues his package 
 in order to get a reduced rate, he is liable to a penalty or fine and 
 imprisonment. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it not pretty generally the custom for banks 
 and brokers and individuals to ship securities and bonds and cur- 
 rency at a much lower valuation than the actual value of the pack- 
 age, on the assumption that they are willing to take. the insurance 
 themselves ? 
 
 Mr. George. No ; I do not think that is the custom now with banks, 
 or the practice. I think that in shipments that banks make or 
 Sirokers make they will declare the actual value. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose that an individual shipped a million 
 dollars in stocks without the signature of the shipper or the owner 
 or the power of attorney on the back, and he valued that at $1,000, 
 and paid you the rate on $1,000, and the next day or the day after- 
 wards the shipper sent the power of attorney applicable to those 
 stocks, either through your company or through the registered mails, 
 would vou assume that the shipper was violating the law in not pay- 
 ing you the rate on the million dollars which was the actual value of 
 those securities? 
 
 Mr. George. That is provided for in our classification. I think 
 that securities, railroad, State, county, and other bonds are subject 
 to one half the currency rate at actual face value. Nonnegotiable 
 bonds are also provided for in the classification at a certain rate. I 
 think the minimum charge is 15 cents a thousand dollars. Under 
 those circumstances, or the case you cite, I would expect the shipper 
 Vo declare the actual value. 
 
 The Chairman. The value of those securities depends upon the 
 indorsement on the back or the attaching of a power of attorney. 
 Consequently, without the signature of the owner the value would not 
 he a million dollars. They would have no value. 
 
 Mr. George. We are entirely at the mercy of the shipper m cases 
 of that kind. We Avould have to take his word for it. If the bonds 
 were actually worth a million dollars after the signature of the 
 owner is appended, he probably would not want to lose anyway, 
 even though it did not bear his signature— that is, ordinary railroad 
 bonds, of course. 
 
1186 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. But coupon bonds; if they were registered 
 bonds 
 
 Mr. George. Well, in that case, as I said before, we would have 
 to take the shipper's value. We have no way of verifying his state- 
 ment. 
 
 The Chairman. Do your companies transact any customhouse 
 brokerage business? 
 
 Mr. George. No, sir. We carry goods in bond, if that is what you 
 mean, Senator. We carry them from the port of entry, from the 
 customhouse in Georgetown, for example. 
 
 The Chairman. And you take the customhouse receipts, but you 
 do not complete the transaction; your activity ceases with the de- 
 livery to the United States customhouse agents. 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you have many claims for damage in transit in 
 your business? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes ; a good many, Senator ; although the percentage 
 of loss is not very great when you consider the volume of business. 
 We think there are too many, of course. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any idea, Mr. George, as to the probable 
 percentage of the volume of business handled, either compared to 
 the gross earnings or the net? 
 
 Mr. George. I have not. That is a matter which would be in the 
 accounting department. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it customary for you to issue additional insur- 
 ance on the delivery of goods for which you make additional charges? 
 
 Mr. George. No, sir. We make an additional charge where the 
 value exceeds $50 on any particular shipment. Nothing in addition 
 to that. 
 
 The Chairman. Your charge on all packages exceeding $50 in 
 value carries with it an insurance for, the value ascertained on the 
 declaration for which the shipper pays his real insurance in in- 
 creased rate? 
 
 Mr. George. Increased rate; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Does your company act as a collection agency for 
 any commercial, accounts? 
 
 Mr. George. They do not. 
 
 The Chairman. Does your company do a large money-order busi- 
 ness? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, not as large as some of the other companies. 
 I have no idea as to the value of it, but we maintain a separate de- 
 partment for the money-order business, of course ; we have no knowl- 
 edge of the figures at all. 
 
 The Chairman. Your impression is that it is a pretty well pay- 
 ing branch of the business though, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. George. I never thought so as to Washington. I think that 
 the amount of work and expense attached to the money-order busi- 
 ness exceeds the revenue. That is my experience in this city. In 
 the aggregate, however, it might be a paying branch of the business. 
 I am not prepared to answer. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you issue money orders on foreign countries? 
 
 Mr. George. In the United States only. 
 
PAKCEL POST. 1187 
 
 The Chairman. You are more or less familiar, are you not, with 
 what is accepted by the United States Government as mail matter? 
 
 Mr. George.- Yes ; I think so. 
 
 The Chairman. Do the express companies handle many articles 
 that the United States Government does not take as mail matter? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, there is a certain class of business we handle 
 a good deal of; spirits of fermenti principally, plain whisky, poor, 
 good, and bad, and any other liquids, patent medicines, etc., in liquid 
 form, but the value is not very great. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you carry any explosives ? 
 
 Mr. George. We do, when properly labeled in accordance with the 
 present laws formulated by the Interstate Commerce Commission, 
 I believe. 
 
 The Chairman. I suppose that is a very limited portion of the 
 business. 
 
 Mr. George. Yes ; very little of it. 
 
 The Chairman. You carry live animals and perishable matter? 
 
 Mr. George. Anything in that line ; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. If the weight limit of mail matter under the 
 fourth-class privilege were made 11 pounds instead of 4 pounds, the 
 present rate, what percentage of the express business, in your judg- 
 ment, would be affected ? 
 
 Mr. George. I never have given that any thought, Senator. The 
 average weight handled in our business is anywhere from 40 to 50 
 pounds. If that is the average, why I presume 
 
 The Chairman. Presumably about 25 or 26 per cent of your busi- 
 ness might be affected. 
 
 Mr. George. Might be affected, as between 4 and 11 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Up to 11 pounds, anything under 11 pounds? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have the express companies ever considered the 
 possibility of establishing a flat rate for the whole country? 
 
 Mr. George. I do not think so; not to my knowledge, at least. 
 
 The Chairman. Taking that particular kind of business, do you 
 believe it would be absolutely impracticable and impossible ? 
 
 Mr. George. I do. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose that one company did all of the busi- 
 ness, all the express business of the United States, what then? Do 
 you believe it would be practicable and feasible to determine a flat 
 rate that would apply to the whole country ? 
 
 Mr. George. No, sir; I do not think it would be practicable. I 
 think you could apply a zone system but not a flat rate over the whole 
 country. 
 
 The Chairman. The express companies go out for business and 
 try to increase their business all they can ; they are seeking for more 
 business all the time, are they not ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. That is one of the advantages, is it, that you feel 
 that you have over the Government as far as there is competition be- 
 tween the Government and the express companies on mail matter? 
 
 Mr. George. I do not get that, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. The fact that you are hunting business is an ad- 
 vantage that you feel that private enterprise, as represented by the 
 
1188 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 express companies, would have over the Government where the two 
 are in competition ; for instance, like fourth-class mail matter up to 
 four pounds ? 
 
 Mr. Geoege. We do not lay any particular stress in our soliciting 
 business on that particular class of goods. We solicit all of it as it 
 comes, a thousand-pound shipment right down to the very smallest, 
 for that matter. We make it our business to see all classes of ship- 
 pers. 
 
 The Chairman. But you handle here in this office, for instance, in 
 a daily outgo, 2,000 packages. What number of that 2,000 packages 
 would probably fall under a half pound in weight ? 
 
 Mr. George. Very few. 
 
 The Chairman. The great bulk of the business would be over a 
 half pound ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes ; over 5 or 10 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Have the express companies, so far as you know, 
 business agents whose duty it is to study the industrial, economic, 
 commercial, farming, and development conditions with a view to 
 creating new business and building up the business? 
 
 Mr. George. No. Our manner of soliciting is this : Our territory 
 is divided in subdivisions, say, of 100 or 150 offices into what we call 
 " routers." They are supposed to canvass their particular section, 
 soliciting business, and adjusting matters with the agents, and so 
 forth. Outside of those men we have not any traveling agents or 
 soliciting agents. 
 
 The Chairman. The practice of charging minimum rates is pretty 
 general, is it not, among the express companies; a minimum rate or 
 a special rate below which you never go ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes. They are all governed by the same classifica- 
 tion. 
 
 The Chairman. A minimum rate is supposed to cover, or is based 
 primarily on the cost of collecting and delivering, rather than the 
 cost of the transportation? 
 
 Mr. George. I could not answer that; I do not know how they 
 figure that. I do not know that they segregate it at all. I think the 
 number of pieces and the revenue is all thrown in together and the 
 expenses prorated against the gross business regardless of what class 
 of business might make up that total. 
 
 The Chairman. You do not think, then, the rates are made on a 
 scientific basis of any individual transaction, but a growth based on 
 the general average of the business transacted in the past? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chair ji an. In yesterday morning's Washington Post there is 
 an article headed : " Express rates cut down — Plans in West to head 
 off the parcel-post project — Reduced tariff on fruit from the 
 Pacific — System to be gradually extended." The article claims 
 to state that the express companies intend to reduce the rates from 
 California to any point in the United States, Boise, Seattle, New 
 York, or Boston, for a flat rate of 4 cents per pound, prepaid, the 
 minimum being 8 pounds at 35 cents. Have you any knowledge, 
 Mr. George, as to any consideration of reduction of rates on the part 
 of the companies that you represent that would give color or founda- 
 tion lo the newspaper statement here that I have'indicated ? 
 
PARCEL POST. 1189 
 
 Mr. George. I have no knowledge or information on the subject 
 whatever. I did not even read the article. 
 
 The Chairman. Mails are cheaper for small parcels than the ex- 
 press companies, are they not ? 
 
 Mr. George. Undoubtedly. 
 
 The Chairman. A number of gentlemen have testified before the 
 committee that, in their opinion, in any system of a parcel post at a 
 flat rate the Government would get the long and supposedly un- 
 profitable hauls and the express companies would take the short and 
 supposedly profitable hauls, their position being predicated on the 
 assumption that the length of the haul was the determinate factor m 
 arriving at the cost of the business. I would like to ask you, as a 
 practical express manager, whether you think the length of the haul 
 of parcels 11 pounds or less in weight has such a determinate influence 
 as is implied in the position which these gentlemen have taken ? 
 
 Mr. George. That would depend on your contract with the trans- 
 portation companies. If your contract is based on a mileage basis, 
 of course you would lose on the rate for the long haul. If, on the 
 other hand, it were based on the percentage of the gross earnings it 
 would be immaterial whether the haul was long or short. The short 
 haul would net a less revenue than the long haul by reason of the 
 revenue being the higher. 
 
 The Chairman. Your contracts with the railroad companies are 
 all based on gross earnings, are they, as far as you understand ? 
 
 Mr. George. As far as I know. I have nothing to do with the 
 contracts and therefore I have not very much knowledge on that 
 class of business. 
 
 The Chairman. If the contract by the Government with the trans- 
 portation company was on a basis of receipts for that particular 
 class of business handled rather than on the mileage basis, it would 
 be immaterial, as far as the Government is concerned, whether it was 
 a flat or a zone rate, but would affect the transportation companies 
 themselves, would it? 
 
 Mr. George. I do not quite get that, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. I will try and make it plainer. If the Govern- 
 ment enacted legislation increasing the weight limit on fourth-class 
 mail matter from 4 to 11 pounds, and their contract or payment to 
 the transportation company carrying those parcels or packages was 
 based on a percentage of the gross receipts received by the Govern- 
 ment for carrying fourth-class mail matter, it would be immaterial, 
 so far as the Government is concerned, as to whether there was a flat 
 rate for the country as a whole or a zone rate established, dividing 
 the country into divisions, would it not ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes ; possibly immaterial to the Government. 
 
 The Chairman. But not to the railroad companies ? 
 
 Mr. George. Not to the railroads, because the revenue or the pro- 
 portion of the revenue would be smaller. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, their proportion of the actual money re- 
 ceived by the Government and paid over to the railroads would not 
 be smaller, but the expenses of the railroad in performing the busi- 
 ness might be greater, so that their net returns to the railroad from 
 that point of view would be smaller. 
 
 Mr. George. Yes. sir. 
 
1190 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. In your judgment, is express matter handled with 
 more care than the mail matter has to be handled by Government 
 employees ? 
 
 Mr. George. No; T do not think so. I think it would be handled 
 in about the same manner. There is one thing against the handling 
 of mail matter which might have the effect of breakage, that is the 
 pouch system. 
 
 The Chairman. In almost all of your business, however, you re- 
 quire that the articles should be carefully wrapped, or that they 
 should be assembled, in the way of fruit in packages or in the way of 
 chickens or poultry. 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir; but in addition to that, 'Senator, in the 
 smaller packages they are all transported in solid wooden or fiber 
 trunks between large cities, packed in there so they can not move. 
 
 The Chairman. For the express matter. 
 
 Mr. George. For the express service ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You take your packages, do you — that is, the 
 small ones — and assemble them in trunks or hampers for the through 
 business ? 
 
 Mr. George. For through business; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. So as to minimize the possibility of injury? 
 
 Mr. George. Injury in handling and minimize the handling and 
 the injury. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the general system of the express com- 
 panies throughout the country? 
 
 Mr. George. Throughout the country. There are thousands and 
 thousands of those trunks employed in that particular service. 
 
 The Chairman. Has that been in vogue for many years? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, for 30 years or over to my knowledge. 
 
 The Chairman. The labor incident to that care and the cost of the 
 trunks, hampers, and so forth, do you think it adds materially to the 
 cost of the transaction ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes; I think it adds to the cost, but it is a question 
 whether the saving on the loss and damage account would not off- 
 set it. 
 
 The Chairman. But, taking for illustration, a 25-cent charge on 
 the cost of a transaction, how many cents of that charge of 25 cents 
 would probably be represented by this additional care in assembling 
 and packing by the express company itself? 
 
 Mr. George. That would be a hard matter to determine. The ex- 
 press companies' instructions are that where there is a sufficient 
 volume of business between two cities all small packages shall be 
 placed in these receptacles or trunks for safe carriage. 
 
 The Chairman. Have the companies issued any instructions to 
 examine parcels and see whether or not they contain written matter 
 in the shape of letters? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes. Positive instructions not' to accept any letters 
 in our service. We refer those to the post office. 
 
 The Chairman. But there was a time when the companies used to 
 carry, to a more or less extent, some mail matter? 
 
 Mr. George. Many years ago they carried letters if the communi- 
 cations were inclosed in a Government stamped envelope. 
 
 The Chairman. But, so f?r as you know, none of that is done 
 now? 
 
PAEOEL POST. 1191 
 
 Mr. George. None of it is done now. 
 
 The Chairman. Are the parcels actually examined to ascertain 
 that there is no written matter in the parcels ? 
 
 Mr. George. No, sir ; they are not. 
 
 Mr. Chairman. You leave that to the integrity and knowledge of 
 the sender ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. So that doubtless you do carry, especially around 
 the holiday season, a large number of packages in which there is some 
 written matter, but your presumption is that there is no such matter 
 there, that the sender is cognizant of the law, and that the breaking 
 of the law is his or her action and not yours ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. In a general way the principal advantages of the 
 express service over the freight service is greater speed in handling, 
 greater care, and better service in the way of delivery ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes. Well, in the freight service the delivery only 
 applies to the depot, although they do make deliveries through local 
 transfer companies. 
 
 The Chairman. Do the railroads themselves agree to make de- 
 liveries to the addressee by freight? 
 
 Mr. George. I could not answer that. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The railroads do have a system of delivery in 
 cities ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes; the freight arriving here on the Baltimore & 
 Ohio Railroad, I think, is delivered generally by a firm known as the 
 Blue Line Transfer, and that arriving over the Pennsylvania Bail- 
 road. I think, Knox Co. delivers. 
 
 The Chairman. As to the speed in handling and delivery, how do 
 you think the express companies compare with the Government in 
 handling the mails ? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, there are more daily services by mail than there 
 are by express, but there are no more actual deliveries to the con- 
 signee or addressee, as a rule. Now, in this city the delivery with us 
 is a practically continuous performance all day long. Of course, the 
 accumulation of matter arrives here during the night and goes out on 
 the first delivery in the morning. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you route in accordance with your receiving by 
 trains, figuring to make three deliveries a day in the city proper ? 
 
 Mr. George. We have the city districted in, I think, 21 delivery 
 sections. 
 
 The Chairman. And you aim to make one or more deliveries in 
 each section daily, the congested section getting probably three or 
 four deliveries in a day? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir; take a hotel or a delivery of perishable mat- 
 ter; it is delivered from almost all the incoming trains on which we 
 have service. 
 
 The Chairman. Outside of the 30 square miles of area that you 
 serve yourself with your own vehicles and the arrangement or con- 
 tract you have with the Merchants' Delivery Service, they charge 
 what they please or what they see fit to the customer and depend upon 
 the customer paying them the charge ? 
 
 58773— vol 5—12 3 
 
1192 PABCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. George. They are governed by' a regular schedule based on the 
 weight of the article. 
 
 The Chairman. You have nothing whatever to do with that. 
 
 Mr. George. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What influence has the Interstate Commer.ce Com- 
 mission had on the fixing of express rates? Would you be able to 
 express an opinion on that? 
 
 Mr. George. No; I would not. I would not care to express an 
 opinion on that. 
 
 The Chairman. Have the express companies ever tried to fix rates 
 applied within certain fixed zones or, rather, rates from point to 
 point or one place to a number of places as designated here [refer- 
 ring to the schedule of rates of the company] ? That has always been 
 the system? 
 
 Mr. George. That has always been the system. 
 
 The Chairman. You consider all the offices as one office — I mean 
 as far as the customer goes? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you known of cases where rural-delivery 
 mail carriers have delivered express packages? 
 
 Mr. George. I have not. 
 
 The Chairman. Some of the express companies do local business 
 in their own cities in the way of distribution of telephone directories, 
 and things of that kind, do they not? 
 
 Mr. George. Not to my knowledge. The local companies do that 
 work, it is my recollection. 
 
 The Chairman. You do not distribute any literature or circulars 
 or any matter of that kind locally at all ? 
 
 Mr. George. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. George, if the Government instituted a spe- 
 cial local system of parcel post at a very low rate, do you think the 
 express companies would avail themselves of it to complete delivery 
 where they do not maintain a delivery of their own ? In other words, 
 if there was a specially low rate on the part of the Government in the 
 rural delivery service, would you expect that the express companies 
 would utilize that where you connect with 
 
 Mr. George. Beyond their own delivery, do you mean ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. George. Well, I have not given that any thought. I do not 
 know why they should or why they would. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any questions that you gentlemen of 
 the committee would like to ask Mr. George ? 
 
 Senator Bryan. I would like to get Mr. George to name the various 
 express companies in the United States. 
 
 Mr. George. The various express companies operating under this 
 official classification are : Adams Express Co., American Express Co., 
 Canadian Express Co., Canadian Northern Express Co., Globe Ex- 
 press Co., Great Northern Express Co., Long Island Railroad (Long 
 Island Express), National Express Co., Newfoundland Express Co., 
 New York & Boston Dispatch Express Co., Northern Express Co., 
 Southern Express Co., United States Express Co., Wells-Fargo & Co. 
 Express, Western Express Co.; concurring carriers: Dominion Ex- 
 press Co., and Halifax & Southwestern Railway (express depart- 
 ment). 
 
PARCEL POST. 1193 
 
 Senator Bryan. In a general way, do any two of these companies 
 operate in the same territory ? 
 
 Mr. George. Oh, yes; there is quite a lot of competitive territory. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Between these express companies ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes ; the Adams and the United States and the Ameri- 
 can and Wells-Fargo companies are all in competition one with the 
 other in certain sections of the United States. 
 
 Senator Bryan. The Adams and the Southern companies are not 
 in competition, are they ? 
 
 Mr. George. At only a very few points ; I do not think more than 
 a half dozen or a dozen different points. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Does the Adams Express Co. run south from 
 Washington % 
 
 Mr. George. Not beyond Richmond and Norfolk. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Does the Southern Express Co. operate from the 
 South into Washington ? 
 
 Mr. George. Oh, yes. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Where shipments in large bulk are made, necessi- 
 tating transportation over more than one route, are those shipments 
 transferred at the junction points or do they continue in the same car 
 'over the other line? 
 
 Mr. George. That would depend upon whether there is any through- 
 car service between the points. For example, shipments originating at 
 New York or any other point where the Adams Express Co. is oper- 
 ated and the Southern is not, the destination being in the territory 'of 
 the Southern Express Co., it may be forwarded from New York in a 
 through car to point of destination. For example, business passing 
 from New York to Jacksonville goes in through cars clear to Jack- 
 sonville, Atlanta, as well, and that, of course, means no transfer at 
 Washington. If, however, the business originates at Baltimore, or 
 Wilmington, Del., or Harrisburg, Pa., destined to Atlanta, it would 
 be loaded on to Washington, and we would necessarily transfer it here 
 to the Jacksonville or Atlanta car, as the case might be. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Why could it not be put in the through car from 
 New York to Atlanta or to Jacksonville, although loaded at Wilming- 
 ton or Harrisburg ? 
 
 Mr. George. Because there are no through cars operating past those 
 stations. The through-car service between the two points is only on 
 a straight line between New York and Philadelphia to the South. 
 
 Senator Bryan. Take Baltimore, for instance, then. 
 
 Mr. George. Baltimore has the advantage of loading business for 
 the South in a through car passing Baltimore from New York. 
 
 Senator Bryan. You take advantage of through shipments when- 
 ever you can and avoid the necessity of loading and unloading again? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose a parcel-post provision were incorpo- 
 rated in the postal laws whereby the weight was increased to 11 
 pounds and the rate materially reduced, it would necessarily lead to 
 a similar reduction in the charges in the express business, provided 
 the express companies could still handle it at a profit, would it not? 
 
 Mr. George. I do not think you need fear any reduction on the 
 part of the express rates, because it is my candid opinion that they 
 could nof afford to reduce the present rates. 
 
 Senator Bristow. For short distances? 
 
1194 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. George. No; any distance, in fact. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You think, then, if the rate on fourth-class mat- 
 ter was reduced from 16 cents to 6 cents, say, for a distance of 50 
 miles, that every package that weighed less than 2£ pounds would go 
 by mail instead of by express? 
 
 Mr. George. No doubt of it, because the express companies could 
 not afford to handle it for any such money. It would cost them more 
 than that to collect and deliver the package. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Suppose it were not collected and delivered? 
 Suppose the post office required the package to be delivered at the 
 office and called for at the office, what effect Avould that have? 
 
 Mr. George. That would mean a very material reduction in our 
 operating expenses, and, of course, would put a different phase on it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You would continue, of course, to deliver and 
 collect, retaining your own charges as you seem to believe, your 
 present charges. Suppose the post office would make this reduction 
 very much less than the present rate, but not deliver or collect ; would 
 you, in your opinion, continue to get practically the business you have 
 now, because you would collect and deliver? Would that additional 
 service that you render be of sufficient advantage to the public for the _ 
 public to patronize the express service against the Government " 
 service ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes ; I think so, Senator. I express that opinion, be- 
 cause if I were personally interested in the forwarding or the de- 
 livering of a package of my own. I would, instead of paying 10 cents 
 to ride downtown and back on a street car to deposit that package in 
 I he express office and then on an incoming one come downtown and get 
 that package personally and ride home on the car, I would be willing 
 to pay the difference and have it called for at my house. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The business concerns that ship large numbers 
 of packages would be more inclined to make their own deliveries to 
 the post office, if they could save by it, would they not; mail order 
 houses, for instance? 
 
 Mr. George. That might be the case where the business house has 
 the equipment, but the majority of them have not. 
 
 The Chairman. Have not all the mail order houses their own 
 equipment ? 
 
 Mr. George. The mail order houses, yes. 
 
 The Chairman. The big ones have the cars switched right into 
 their places of business. 
 
 Mr. George. Sears, Eoebuck & Co. get the mail cars right into 
 their plant I have heard. 
 
 Senator Bristow. In the small towns where the express company 
 does not have a delivery system it would not make so much difference, 
 would it ? 
 
 Mr. George. No, it would not make so much difference there, but 
 that proportion of the business is very, very small. We now main- 
 tain a delivery in towns as small as 3,000 inhabitants, or 2,500 in- 
 habitants. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Senator Bourne asked you a while ago if you 
 thought that if there were a special rural delivery service provided 
 for parcel post whether the express company would not utilize it to 
 send their packages to the country where" they have no delivery 
 service. 
 
PAECEL POST. 1195 
 
 Mr. George. I am not prepared to answer that, Senator. It might 
 be that they would take advantage of such an opportunity. 
 
 Senator Bristow. There would be no reason why they should not 
 if the charge were reasonable. 
 
 Mr. George. Provided the consignee would pay the additional 
 charge, if any. The express company could not afford to pay the 
 rural delivery charge, if any, in addition to the charges, or out of 
 the charges or revenue earned out of that particular package. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Have you ever figured how much it costs to de- 
 liver your packages in towns of, say from four to ten thousand? 
 
 Mr. George. We have not ; at least I have not. As I said to Sena- 
 tor Bourne, it is almost impossible to segregate the amount of work 
 on delivery from the work on transfer, and so forth. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You take a town of 10,000; it costs the express 
 company so much a package to maintain that delivery service, does 
 it not? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes; but we do not determine it that way. We do 
 determine what percentage of the gross business was paid out for 
 operating. In other words, we know every month what our oper- 
 ating expenses are as against the gross business, but not what the 
 expense of delivering the particular packages is. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You determine whether or not you will put the 
 delivery system into a town — this town, we will say, of 5,000 people — 
 and you conclude to put a delivery service in there; now, why? 
 
 Mr. George. Because we think the town is large enough and the 
 volume of business is great enough to warrant it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How do you arrive at that conclusion? What 
 volume of business is necessary? 
 
 Mr. George. I do not think I can answer that, because I do not 
 really know what to base that on; of course, on the volume of busi- 
 ness done at that office, but how they arrive at the additional cost 
 of maintaining that office the cost of the equipment or the additional 
 cost of placing a horse and wagon into that city or town, which 
 would be possibly an expense of $100 a month. 
 
 Senator Bristow. There is the driver ? 
 
 Mr. George. The driver and the horse. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And the cost of maintenance? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes ; and the wear and tear. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is an additional expense of the business. 
 That must be charged to the packages that are collected and deliv- 
 ered? 
 
 Mr. George. To the total expense of operation at that office. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes; but the delivery of these packages is an 
 additional expense which the company voluntarily incurs because 
 they think it is advantageous ? 
 
 Mr. George. But, as I say, I do not know that they ever stop to 
 divide the additional cost of that horse and wagon by the number 
 of pieces delivered so as to ascertain what the additional cost per 
 package is in establishing that delivery. They may do that, but, of 
 course, I have not the information as to how they do it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They do not increase the rate to that community 
 because of this ^increased expense? 
 
 Mr. George. No, sir. 
 
1196 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Then, if the estimated cost per package which 
 they add was approximately the same as it would cost to send that 
 package out by rural route, is there any reason to believe that they 
 would not pay the postage and send it out? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, I do not see why they would, Senator, because 
 they would have to maintain that equipment there to deliver pack- 
 ages which the rural parcel post could not handle. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But they do not have this delivery system out 
 in the country where the rural route runs. 
 
 Mr. George. Oh, you are referring now to beyond that particular 
 town where we have a delivery? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. 
 
 Mr. George. That is the same question. I really do hot know 
 whether the express companies would avail themselves or not. I 
 could not say. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If the expense were not greater than the expense 
 of maintaining the delivery system in small towns ? 
 
 Mr. George. But we are speaking now of the destination or the 
 address of a package beyond the delivery system. 
 
 The Chairman. I would like to ask you this question in that con- 
 nection: Would not the express companies, if an especially low rate 
 were inaugurated by the Government on rural routes, immediately 
 take all the small towns covered in their tariff sheet and designate 
 that these towns connected with rural routes, or were on a rural 
 route, so that the shipper would know that he could reach the ad- 
 dressee through the cooperation of the express company and the 
 Government, represented by the rural route, at an additional small 
 charge, which you would know, and would you not take that into con- 
 sideration in making your tariff sheet? 
 
 Mr. George. Well, I would offhand answer that question, Senator: 
 As long as that package would have to pass or would pass in the 
 hands of the rural free-delivery route carrier, why would not the 
 shipper avail himself of that rate and facility in the first place with- 
 out giving the package to the express company and the express com- 
 pany turning it over to the rural-delivery route at that town or the 
 nearest town to the addressee? 
 
 The Chairman. I assumed that Senator Bristow's question was 
 predicated on the assumption that there would be a zone system with 
 an especially low rate on the rural route. Am I correct in that 
 assumption ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes; I was referring to what would be termed 
 the rural-route rate. 
 
 Mr. George. I am afraid, then, we did not understand one another. 
 The way I understand the question is: Here we have a town where 
 we maintain a delivery, but we have a package addressed to a con- 
 signee 2 miles out on your rural route. Now, the question, as I under- 
 stand it,' is: Would the express companies avail themselves of the 
 rate or the facility to deliver this package in the hands of the con- 
 signee 2 miles out by transfer shipment at that office nearest to the 
 rural consignee, or would they hold it back for the consignee to call 
 for it? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes; if that were a 10-pound package. 
 
PABCBL POST. 1197 
 
 Mr. George. If that were a 10-pound package, I would say that the 
 shipper knowing that he could reach thu consignee by the mail service 
 would take it to the mails. 
 ' Senator Beistow. Suppose he had to send it by express? Suppose 
 he could not send it by mail, then what ? 
 
 Mr. Geokge. I understood that 11 pounds was the maximum. 
 
 The Chairman. That is what we have under consideration so far 
 as weight goes. 
 
 Senator Bryan. If he could not start out originally by mail he 
 could not transfer it when it got to the rural route. 
 
 Mr. George. My contention is that the shipper would avail him- 
 self of the low parcel-post rate clear from his own town to the 
 destination. 
 
 Senator Bristow. There are a number of propositions before the 
 committee. One is to establish a parcel-post system solely for rural 
 delivery, the other is a general parcel post, and then another com- 
 prising a zone system. Now, suppose the rural-route system was 
 established and no general parcel post. It is argued by some that it 
 would be of no use because it would serve solely the local community. 
 Now, what I was trying to bring out was whether it would be prac- 
 ticable, or whether it could serve in connection with the express com- 
 panies, a wider field than purely the local merchant. The local mer- 
 chant will contend that it affords an opportunity for the mail-order 
 houses to send their express there and then let it go out on the rural 
 route and it would serve just as great a convenience for the mail- 
 order houses as it does for the merchant. WhatT was trying to get 
 at was whether it would be practicable for the express companies to 
 . take that package, we will say a 10-pound package, from Chicago to 
 Salina, Kans., and deliver it on the rural route and pay the rural 
 route delivery-charge. 
 
 Mr. George. That would depend entirely upon whether the con- 
 signee would be willing to pay that additional charge. The express 
 companies could not afford to pay that additional rural free delivery 
 charge out of their charges exacted from the shipper in the first 
 place. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You think the patron on the rural route would 
 have to pay an additional charge? 
 
 Mr. George. Of course, it might be that instead of driving 2 
 miles to town to get his package he would probably be willing to pay 
 that additional charge, but there is another feature to be considered ; 
 there must necessarily be some way of the express companies' making 
 a formal delivery to the Post Office Department so that they will be 
 able to show what disposition they make of the packages. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And you think it would not be practicable as a 
 general rule ? 
 
 Mr. George. It might be, Senator; I do not care to express an 
 opinion now without giving it further consideration. That might 
 work out an right and it might not. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you think if there were a parcel-post system 
 established and the rate, we will say, for a radius of 50 miles were 
 6 cents a pound, and for 150 miles, t cents : for 200 and 300 miles, 8 
 cents, and so on, which would be a reduction for 500 miles of about 
 50 per cent of the present postal charges, that that would take a great 
 
1198 PARCEL POST. 
 
 deal of the business which the express companies now do and divert 
 it from the express companies to the postal service? 
 
 Mr. George. It undoubtedly would take some of it ; but, as I said 
 before, it depends entirety on how the shipper and consignee feel in 
 the matter and to the responsibility, or, in other words, the liability 
 which the express companies assume as against the mail and the de- 
 livery and collection at both ends. 
 
 Senator Beistow. The present system is to deliver and collect from 
 boxes small packages; if they are too large and too heavy for the 
 convenience of the foot or other carrier to deliver, a card is sent. 
 Assuming that that same system would be continued, do you think 
 that there would be a large amount of express business which you 
 handle diverted or not? 
 
 Mr. George. Not a large amount, but there would be a proportion 
 of the business under 11 pounds. 
 - Senator Bristow. A part of the business under 11 pounds? 
 
 Mr. George. Undoubtedly. 
 
 The Chairman. Which represents about 30 per cent of the total 
 express business of the United States at the present time. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you believe that the postal service can handle 
 these small packages with the system that they use at a less cost than 
 the express companies can? 
 
 Mr. George. I do not see why they could, but they will have to 
 provide the same kind of equipment to the same number of packages 
 that the express companies have. 
 
 The Chairman. But they have no receipts and waybills. 
 
 Mr. George. I am referring now to the waybills. Of course they 
 do not have to stop to take a receipt where they deliver, which the . 
 express companies do. Of course there is some difference in the time 
 or possibly the mail people would not be able to deliver more pack- 
 ages in the same time than the expressmen can. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The great majority of the mail packages are 
 simply dropped in the office and go ; there is no receipt ; there are no 
 tracers ; if they are lost that is the end of it. 
 
 Mr. George. That is the end of it; that is the difference in our 
 service. If they are lost in our service we have to pay for them. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you think that under the system which the 
 post office now uses of simply dropping the package and the other 
 fellow getting it if it reaches him, without any of these checks or 
 records being made, that it costs the Post Office Department as much 
 as it does you to handle those small packages? 
 
 Mr. George. No ; of course not, but I should think that system does 
 not compare with the service that we perform. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is an argument for you to make to the man 
 who is sending his goods. 
 
 Mr. George. Personally, I would not like to patronize that kind of 
 a system where I deposit a package and don't know whether it gets 
 through or not. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is aside, though, to the idea that I am try- 
 ing to develop. The question is whether or not the Post Office De- 
 partment can with its present system handle the small packages at a 
 less cost to itself than the express companies do to themselves. 
 
 Mr George. If they handle their packages in the same manner they 
 do now without either issuing or taking a receipt for the delivery, 
 
PARCEL POST. 1199 
 
 most assuredly they can save some expense. There is no doubt 
 about it. 
 
 Senator Beistow. The result of that system being established 
 would be an increase in the amount of business which the post office 
 would have of that kind ; do you not think so ? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes ; whatever they take away from the express com- 
 panies, it would be an increase to the post office. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Do you think that what they take from express 
 companies is all of the increase? Do you not think there would be 
 hundreds of packages sent that otherwise would not be sent if that 
 facility didnot exist? 
 
 Mr. George. I hardly think so. I do not think it would have a 
 tendency to increase the business of the Post Office Department other 
 than that. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Which it took from the express companies ? 
 
 Mr. Geoege. "Well, yes ; it would possibly make some little business 
 for mail-order stores, more than what they have now. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Would it not for the' public at large? If a man 
 could send for a small fee a package for half what it would cost him 
 now, do you not think that many times he would send a package that 
 otherwise he would not send ? 
 
 Mr, George. There might be some few, Senator, but I believe that 
 when a man has one to send he will send it whether it costs him 11 
 cents or 25 cents. 
 
 Senator Beistow. Do you not think that a reduction in the cost of 
 anything increases its use if it is a useful commodity ? 
 
 Mr. Geoege. Yes; I do. 
 
 Senator Beistow.* Do you not think a reduction in the cost of 
 transportation along any line where there is a movement of mer- 
 chandise or commodities will increase the movement in that direc- 
 tion? 
 
 Mr. Geoege. Yes; naturally it would. 
 
 Senator Beistow. There would be more aggregate business? 
 
 Mr. George. Yes ; I believe there would. 
 
 Senator Beistow. That is my opinion. I think that you might 
 under a system of that kind double the postal business, and the express 
 companies would not know from their gross receipts that the system 
 had been changed. You take the 2-cent fare rate that is established 
 in the Western States ; I am advised that the revenue of the railroads 
 from passenger traffic is greater than when the fare was 3 cents. 
 
 Mr. Geoege. Yes; that would undoubtedly have an effect on the 
 traveling public. There would be more people travel at a lower rate 
 than there would at a higher rate, yet I do not think, Senator, that 
 that applies so much to the shipment of packages, because when you 
 find that a person has a package to ship he will ship it. He may 
 adopt the cheaper service, but I do not think he would ship any more 
 in that way because the charges are any lower. 
 
 Senator Beistow. I would like to state that from the inquiry that 
 I was making of Mr. George I do not mean it to be understood that 
 the effect that this increased facility in the postal service would have 
 on the business of the express companies, either decreasing or increas- 
 ing, is any reason why it should or should not be put in. I think that 
 the question of adopting a parcel post is one wholly from the stand- 
 point of the Government's ability at a reasonable cost to perform the 
 
1200 PARCEL POST. 
 
 service and the necessity for it, independent of what effect it might 
 have upon the express companies or any other transportation com- 
 panies. I did not know from what I had said that it might be 
 inferred that I did not believe that the parcel post should be put in 
 if it would take from the express companies the business. I do not 
 want to assume that attitude at all. 
 
 The Chairman. There is just one point that I would like to bring 
 out before we close with this session of the committee. Have you any 
 knowledge of your own, Mr. George, that the express companies here 
 or the companies with which you are connected have tried to create, 
 crystallize, or manufacture a sentiment against the enlargement of 
 our present parcel post as represented under the fourth-class mail 
 matter. 
 
 Mr. George. Absolutely, no. I have never heard anyone speak 
 of it. 
 
 The Chairman. I want to thank you, on behalf of the committee, 
 Mr. George, for coming before the committee. 
 
 Thereupon, at 5 o'clock, the committee adjourned to meet at 11 
 o'clock on Monday morning, February 12, 1912. 
 
 MONDAY, FEBRUARY 12, 1912. 
 
 Committee on Post Offices and Post Eoads, 
 
 United States Senate, 
 
 Washington, D. G. 
 The subcommittee met at 11 o'clock a. m. 
 Present: Senator Jonathan Bourne, jr., chairman. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. R. T. BUECHLER, TARIFF CLERK, ADAMS AND 
 SOUTHERN EXPRESS COMPANIES. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Buechler, it will be necessary that you first 
 be sworn. 
 
 Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Kindly state your age. 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Twenty-five. 
 
 The Chairman. Your residence and present occupation? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. 1919 H Street, Washington, D. C; tariff clerk, 
 Adams Express Co. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you tariff clerk as well for the Southern 
 Express Co.? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. The Adams and Southern here in this city are 
 conducted under joint management, are they not? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You are tariff clerk for both? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you held the position of tariff 
 clerk for these two companies? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. I should say about four years. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1201 
 
 The Chairman. Will you describe, for the information of the 
 committee, the nature of your duties as tariff clerk for the express 
 companies ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. I would say that I am supposed to keep an up-to- 
 date set of tariffs, furnish information to any employees or the 
 public, upon request, as to various rates on express matter to and 
 from Washington, D. C. 
 
 The Chairman. From what point? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. From Washington, D. C., to any points reached by 
 any express company other than the United States Express Co. I 
 had better modify that ; I should say from Washington to all points, 
 except those reached exclusively by the United States Express Co. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, you furnish, upon request, information as 
 to tariff rates to every point in the United States or the world that 
 are reached by express companies, except in that instance of the 
 United States Express Co., which has an office here and only reaches 
 certain points and no other company reaches those points. Is that 
 correct ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. That is correct, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. In case where none of the companies other than 
 the United States Express Co. reach a certain point, upon inquiry 
 from a cftizen or customer, what do you do ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. There are some points reached by the United States 
 Express Co., the rates to which I know; if I know and I am sure of 
 the rate, I will furnish the rate, but I would not guarantee it; I will 
 just try to help the man out and not require him to spend another 5 
 cents for a telephone message. If I can not give him the rate I refer 
 him to the United States Express Co. 
 
 The Chairman. In case you think you know the rate, or are satis- 
 fied you know the rate, do you give the customer a rate and accept 
 payment for the charge and take the package ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. I do not receive any freight. I simply quote the 
 rate. 
 
 The Chairman. From your knowledge of the conduct of the com- 
 pany's business here is it your impression, or do you know specifi- 
 cally that your company would receive the package and the payment 
 for transmission, although it was directed to a point reached only by 
 the United States Express Co. ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir ; that has been done out of courtesy to the 
 public. 
 
 The Chairman. And in a case of that kind you notify the United 
 States Express Co. that you have such a package for them and do 
 they come and get it, do you send it to them, or what is the modus 
 operandi of the transaction? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. We simply transfer it to them in what we call 
 the local transfer ; we send it to them for transportation. We take it 
 over to their warehouse and turn it over to them. 
 
 The Chairman. You have, as I understand from the testimony 
 submitted by your agent here, Mr. George, last Saturday— you are 
 all under one roof in your warehouse? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. In other words you have a warehouse which you 
 lease from the Terminal Co., a certain amount of space for each com- 
 nanv. Ts that correct? 
 
1202 PAEOEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. So that you do not have to carry the package 
 that you deliver to the United States Express Co. any distance ; it is 
 simply delivered under the same roof from one portion of the floor 
 space to another portion of the floor space. Is that right ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. There is a wall that divides the ware- 
 house, just like two separate buildings. 
 
 The Chairman. But all under the same roof? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. But all under the same roof. 
 
 The Chairman. You give a receipt for either the Adams or the 
 Southern Express Co., I assume, for this particular package which is 
 reached only by the United States Express Co. ; that is, the point of 
 delivery. Do you get a receipt in return from the United States 
 Express Co. for this particular package ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And in the settlement made between the com- 
 panies, you are debited with an amount charged for this particular 
 transaction ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any knowledge as to how often these 
 settlements are made between the companies? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. We make them daily. 
 
 The Chairman. They are made daily ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You have designated your duties as tariff clerk 
 in Washington for the joint operations of the Adams and Southern 
 Express Cos. Do you make up tariffs ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. The rates are furnished from New York and we 
 carry them out in our books, just as I showed you on Saturday. 
 
 The Chairman. The rates are all made up at the rate office in New 
 York? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And you are furnished with information from 
 time to time as to what these rates are and you enter on your tariff 
 books there those rates, and your function is to familiarize the pub- 
 lic, upon inquiry, and your associates in your office here, upon in- 
 quiry, as to what the lowest established rate may he in accordance 
 with directions that you have received from the main office in New 
 York. Is that correct? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. In your four years' service with these companies, 
 have there been any general changes in rates ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir ; there have been a great many changes. 
 
 The Chairman. By general change in rates, I mean, has there 
 been an entirely new schedule of rates made up so that your tariff 
 books or sheets have been called in and new ones furnished you ? 
 
 Mr, Buechler. Yes, sir; there has. 
 
 The Chairman. How often and how recently was the last general 
 change ? 
 
 Mr.- Buechler. Well, the last change, I would say, for the Adams 
 Express Co. was on October 1. 
 
 The Chairman. First of last October ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1203 
 
 The Chairman. Was that a general change, a change of all rates 
 throughout the United States ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. It was a change of the tariff. 
 
 The Chairman. By tariff you mean rates or classification of ma- 
 terial, or both ? 
 
 Mr, Buechler. A new book was issued ; we filled in the rates from 
 such data as we had at hand. 
 
 The Chairman. Then it was not an entire change of all rates ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. No, sir; I would not say the rate were all changed, 
 but the tariff was changed. 
 
 The Chairman. Just elaborate a little on that point so as to get 
 clearly in the minds of the committee what you mean by change of 
 tariff, if you do not change the rates. Do you mean the classification 
 of materials carried ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. No, sir ; on October 1 the old tariff which we had, 
 had so many changes in it and so many changes had taken place be- 
 tween the various express companies, such as one express company ab- 
 sorbing the other, or taking a certain piece of road from the other, that 
 it was impossible to make all these changes in the old tariff, and in 
 order to simplify this, the tariff department sent us a new blank 
 tariff form which we had to fill in from such data as we had at hand, 
 fill in the various rates. 
 
 The Chairman. After filling in, did you send your new book or 
 new tariff filled in by you to the 1 main office in New York for their 
 supervision to see if you had filled in the correct rates from the data 
 that you had on hand ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Explain for the information of the committee, if 
 you kindly will, clearly what you mean by " tariff " from an express 
 standpoint. 
 
 Mr. Buechler. The tariff is a book printed by the express com- 
 pany from which rates to various points from the point of origin may 
 be obtained. 
 
 The Chairman. How is it made up ? In other words, what is the 
 method of making up a tariff book? The first step is to segregate 
 goods into different classes? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. No, sir ; that would come under What we term the 
 classification. 
 
 The Chairman. Is not the tariff book based primarily on classi- 
 fication and secondly on rates in accordance with those classifications ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. No, sir. The tariff book gives you the rate on 100 
 pounds on what we term merchandise. The classification qualifies 
 the various articles into classes, as to whether they would be higher 
 than merchandise or lower than the merchandise rates. 
 
 The Chairman. What do you cover by the general term f " Mer- 
 chandise," which, as I understand, is your unit in making up your 
 tariff book? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Anything that would not be specified in the classi- 
 fication as taking a higher or lower rate would be classified as mer- 
 chandise. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you take everything, every commodity first 
 as merchandise and then you narrow down those commodities in your 
 unit merchandise by taking away from that and putting into other 
 classifications various commodities. Is that the method ? 
 
1204 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Then your unit on what is left of merchandise, 
 after you have eliminated various commodities and put in separate 
 classifications, is the average weight charged for 100 pounds of mer- 
 chandise from the point of initiation to the point of delivery. Is that 
 correct ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. The charge being based on distance of trans- 
 portation solely? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Well, I could not answer that. 
 
 The Chairman. You have nothing whatever to do with making up 
 the rates? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You are simply an instrument to see that the 
 rates as given to you from the rate office in New York are carried 
 out? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. How many offices in the United States, roughly 
 speaking, have you in your tariff books for all information as to 
 classification and tariff rates covering your own offices and those with 
 which you do business? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. I could not answer that, sir. I never had any 
 occasion to obtain any information like that. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you with you the most recent tariff book 
 giving this information ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Tes. sir. 
 
 The Chairman. How many books cover this subject, one or are 
 there several? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. There are several. 
 
 The Chairman. How many? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Well, I had better specif}' them. There is what 
 we call Adams office and common-point list. That is one book. The 
 Southern Express office list and a joint basing transfer tariff. From 
 those we are able to obtain the rates to most any point. 
 
 The Chairman. In this country or throughout the world ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir ; I would say throughout the world. 
 
 The Chairman. Wherever express business is transacted? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Wherever express business is transacted ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. If the Adams and the Southern were operated here 
 absolutely independently and not jointly through the office for which 
 you are tariff clerk, they really would only require two books for 
 both companies ; is that true ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. This book which you designate as the foreign 
 tariff book, giving you information as to rates to be charged to all 
 points in (he world where express companies reach, it is necessary for 
 every express company and every express office in the United States to 
 have a similar book, the rates, of course, varying, in accordance with 
 the point, from the initial point ; is that true ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. That is correct. 
 
 The Chairman. This book weighs 4 pounds. Could you give the 
 number of pages in the book ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. They are not numbered. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1205 
 
 The Chairman. Between covers the book is 1 T % inches in thickness ; 
 the pages are 11| inches long. The printed matter on the pages is 
 lOf niches long and 8£ inches wide. In addition to this book each 
 express office m the United States should have the rates, varying 
 according to the different offices; every office should have an express 
 guide, similar m nature to the Postal Guide, giving, as I understand 
 you to say, some 250,000 towns. 
 
 Mr. Buechler. I presume it is ; I would not like to make a posi- 
 tive statement in that connection. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you feel safe in stating 200,000? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. I do not know, Senator. It is a book as thick as 
 that transfer tariff and the pages are almost as thin as tissue paper, 
 and there are two columns on a page. That gives Mexico, Canada, 
 and the United States. A very little bit of it is used up by Mexico 
 or Canada. Fully seven-eighths of the contents is information as 
 to the United States. 
 
 The Chairman. Purporting to give every town in the United 
 States of 100 population or over? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. With information as to whether it has an express 
 office there or not, a telegraph office, a telephone office, or if not, then 
 ihe nearest express, telegraph, or telephone office? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Is every express office in the United States sup- 
 posed to have one of those guides ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Well, all large offices are. I could not answer as to 
 the small ones. 
 
 The Chairman. And the guide is. called specifically what? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Bullinger. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you had occasion to seek information from 
 the Bullinger guide? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Quite frequently do you have occasion? 
 
 Mr Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. How long, in seconds, does it take you to get the 
 full information provided a customer comes in and wants to send to 
 one of these points not covered in your tariff book specifically, and 
 for information regarding the same you are obliged to look in Bul- 
 linger before you can ascertain whether you can accept with safety 
 and inform the customer what it has to go through before it reaches 
 the destination and give the customer the charge that he or she will 
 have to pay for the transaction? How many seconds or minutes 
 does it take you to make that investigation; some little time? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. It would take some little time. I have consumed 
 as much as five minutes to make a rate to some point. Sometimes 
 you can turn right to" the place and find it very easily. Other times 
 it is very difficult. 
 
 The Chairman. For four years you have devoted your time exclu- 
 sively to this particular tariff from this particular point, Washing- 
 ton, so that you are a specialist in that particular direction, and if it 
 took you as high as five minutes, would it not take a man longer who 
 had not had long experience on tariff ascertainment? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir ; I think it would. 
 
1206 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Do your tariff books, sent to your agents through- 
 out the country, contain information as to what course the agent shall 
 use in trying to ascertain the information so as to simplify and ex- 
 plain to him as clearly as possible just what he has to do to get the 
 correct result? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. They contain a set of rules as to how we shall go 
 about finding the rate; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. It takes your agent some little time, does it, in 
 some of the similar offices to familiarize themselves with this work? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. I should think it would ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Do patrons of your office here ask to see the 
 printed tariff sheet, or do they just pay whatever you may designate 
 as the rate to be charged? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Well, sometimes they request the tariff sheet in 
 order that when they doubt our word as to whether the correct rate 
 has been charged, they can see for themselves. As a rule, the ordi- 
 nary shipper will take our word as to what the correct rate is. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there any appreciable percentage of your cus- 
 tomers who ask to see the tariff sheets and check up with you upon 
 what data you quote them the rate? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. The large shippers in town are very familiar with 
 the rates and they audit nearly all their bills before they are paid. 
 
 The Chairman. Is the bulk of your' business transacted with the 
 large shippers or with the public generally? What would you 
 think? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. That would be a pretty hard question for me to 
 answer. I would not like to answer. 
 
 The Chairman. Then I infer from your disinclination to answer 
 that they about balance each other, in your opinion. Is that a cor- 
 rect inference? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. No, sir ; I would not say that they did balance. Of 
 course, this is simply my opinion; I am not quoting from absolufp 
 facts and figures. 
 
 The Chairman. No; I understand. Then you haven't the infor- 
 mation available upon which you would be able to base an intelligent 
 answer ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you describe the different classes in which 
 express matter is divided by the companies that you are associated 
 with, namely, the Adams and the Southern Express Cos. ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Well, I might say merchandise, articles, classified 
 higher than merchandise, and commodities, such as foodstuffs, and 
 then articles which can be carried under sections A, D and E. 
 
 The Chairman. You have various sections, have you? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Explain how many sections, how they are desig- 
 nated and how you make the segregation into sections. 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Well, the first section would be "A"; that in- 
 cludes advertising matter distributed by shippers without cost to 
 the consignee. Section " D " would cover printed matter such as 
 books, pamphlets, calendars 
 
 The Chairman. Catalogues? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Catalogues; yes, sir. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1207 
 
 The Chairman. Who pays the charge ; the consignee or the con- 
 signor? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Section A is matter on which the charges are pre- 
 paid or guaranteed. 
 
 The Chairman. By the consignor ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Did you say the next was B or D ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. D. 
 
 The Chairman. Who pays the charges for section D ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Section D must be prepaid. 
 
 The Chairman. By the consignor ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. The consignor pays the charges. 
 
 The Chairman. So far as you are concerned ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. Section E matter covers merchandise or 
 samples of merchandise, excepting sealed packages of jewelry, and 
 the charges in that case must be prepaid. The value in section D 
 and E must be limited to $10, otherwise we make the merchandise 
 charge. 
 
 The Chairman. By your stating that the value must be limited to 
 $10, otherwise you will make the merchandise charge, I assume you 
 give a minimum rate then to the articles covered by sections D 
 and E? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir; we hav-e a minimum. 
 
 The Chairman. Your minimum rate being what in each case? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. In section D the minimum rate is 10 cents when 
 carried by one company. 
 
 The Chairman. For what weight, per pound? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. The minimum fee is 10 cents. The rate per pound 
 is 8 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. The minimum rate is 10 cents and the rate per 
 pound 8 cents? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Without regard to the number of pounds. In 
 other words, there is no limitation placed on maximum weight? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. No, sir. That might be misleading, for I did not 
 quite finish. Where the merchandise rate exceeds $8 per hundred 
 ihe minimum charge is 20 cents; or when it is carried between two 
 points, one of which is an exclusive office, the rate is 10 cents for 
 each company carrying it. That applies to section D matter. In 
 order to make it clear as to what an exclusive office is, I could pos- 
 sibly give you an example. 
 
 The Chairman. If you would, kindly do so. 
 
 Mr. Buechler. A shipment from Washington to Portsmouth, 
 N. H., which is an exclusive office of the American Express Co., we 
 would charge 20 cents for 1 pound, or 20 cents would be the minimum 
 charge. 
 
 The Chairman. Of which 20 cents you would receive 10 and the 
 American Express Co. 10? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Whereas your charge would only have been 10 
 provided you had your own office at Portsmouth ? Is that correct ? 
 
 58773— vol 5—12 4 
 
1208 PABCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Btjechler. Yes, sir ; or provided that the shipment may have 
 moved between what we term common points — that is, where two or 
 more express companies are represented, both at point of origin and 
 point of destination. 
 
 The Chairman. This courtesy extends only where there is actual 
 or possible competition between the two companies, I take it? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Before you finish with section D, you have 
 given the minimum very clearly. Now, start with the initial charge 
 of 10 cents, providing the value is less than $8 per hundred pounds. 
 What is your charge per pound up to, say, 11 pounds ? 
 
 Mr. Btjechler. Well, the charge per pound on section D would 
 be 8 cents a pound, but where there is more than 50 ounces shipped 
 there is a reduction on one shipment of 2 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. Per pound? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. No, sir ; on the entire shipment ; if we would take 
 your example of 11 pounds, that would be 88 cents 
 
 The Chairman. Less 2? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. No, sir; 88 would be the total; it would 88 less 2. 
 
 The Chairman. Ten cents for the initial charge and then 8 cents 
 per pound 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Less 2 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. Taking a concrete case of 11 pounds under section 
 D, I would make it, if I correctly understood your explanation, 98 
 cents; 10 cents, the initial charge, and then 8 cents per pound for 11 
 pounds would be 98 cents, and then 2 cents off because of the excess 
 weight over 50 ounces. I am wrong, am I? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. You would charge 8 cents per pound. 
 The minimum charge only enters into the transaction where the 
 rate per pound falls less than 10 cents on a single shipment. 
 
 The Chairman. Then 10 cents is not your minimum charge? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir; 10 cents is the minimum charge, but it 
 is not the minimum charge per pound. 
 
 The Chairman. Oh, I understand. You carry nothing for less 
 than 10 cents? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Whether it weighs an ounce or a pennyweight or 
 a, pound ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir ; it would be 10 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. If it weighed 2 pounds, under section D, you 
 would carry that for .16 cents ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. If it weighed 17 ounces, your charge would be 16 
 •cents ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. No, sir; if it weighed 16 ounces, under section D, 
 it would be 10 cents. 
 
 The Chairman. But 17 ounces is more than a pound. 
 
 Mr. Buechler. I know ; but we charge by the ounce. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a coincidence with the Government on 
 fourth-class mail matter? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. If the Government charged by the pound, I sup- 
 pose your tariff on fourth-class . competitive matter would change 
 
PABCEL POST. 1209 
 
 and you would adopt the pound instead of the ounce as a unit, pre- 
 sumably? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. I do not know what the traffic.department might do. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any knowledge as to the total number 
 of packages handled by all the express companies in the United 
 States last year? 
 
 Mr. Buechlee. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any knowledge as to the probable per- 
 centage handled by the express companies would bear to the number 
 handled weighing 11 pounds or less ? 
 
 Mr. Buechlee. No, sir ; I have not. 
 
 The Chairman. In your section here I notice you jump from A 
 to D and from D to E. What, becomes of the intermediate letters 
 of the alphabet ? 
 
 Mr. Buechlee. You might say they are " has beens." There used 
 to be a section called B, but that was so near section A that they 
 cut it out, and section C used to provide for a division of earnings 
 on packages under 7 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the only sections you have are A, D, and E ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. There are no other sections? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, you have the express business divided into 
 three sections — A, D, and E. Those three sections cover the total 
 classifications so far as the nature of the article is concerned? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. I think they were originally put in the book to 
 cover all articles, because in a great many instances, when packages 
 are damaged, the merchandise rate is the cheaper, and of course it 
 is to the shipper's benefit to avail himself of the cheapest rate. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you endeavor in large shipment to give a rate 
 approaching the fast freight rate of the railroads? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. I could not answer that, because I am not up on 
 fast freight rates. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly go on and further explain your 
 method of the division into classes ? We have now reached the three 
 sections A, D, and E. What is the next stop ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Well, I think you have covered the merchandise. 
 As to what we classify as merchandise, that has been previously 
 stated. Now, articles classified as higher than merchandise. Take, 
 for instance, vehicles or live animals and fancy poultry. Those are 
 classified at higher than merchandise rates. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, you charge a higher rate for them? 
 
 Mr. Buechlee. Yes, sir ; we use the merchandise rate as a basis and 
 charge either a rate and a half or twice the merchandise rate. I 
 think in some cases there are articles we might classify as eight times 
 merchandise. 
 
 The Chairman. What article would that be? 
 
 Mr. Buechlee. That would be racing rowboats and shells. 
 
 The Chairman. That would be eight times the merchandise rate? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. The rate there being based, I assume, on pound 
 unit rather than the ounce ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes. sir. 
 
1210 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. The Government not shipping any rowboats or 
 shells, would you kindly give the minimum on sections A and E ? 
 
 Mr. Btjechler. The minimum charge on section A matter is 35 
 cents, unless the charge of the merchandise rate would be cheaper, 
 which sometimes happens. 
 
 The»CflCAiRMAN. Before we leave section A, you say the minimum 
 charge is 35 cents. You take no packages or parcels coming under 
 section A for less than 35 cents, no matter what the rate will be? 
 
 Mr. Btjechler. Not unless we can figure a cheaper rate than mer- 
 chandise, and then it takes it out of the category of section A and 
 we classify it as a merchandise shipment. 
 
 The Chairman. Assuming that 35 cents is your minimum rate 
 under section A — in other words, that you are not able to give it the 
 merchandise rate — what is your rate based on the pound or the 
 ounce ? 
 
 Mr. Btdechler. Based on the pound ? 
 
 The Chairman. What would be your rate per pound, taking 35 
 cents as your minimum charge for any single package ? 
 
 Mr. Btjechler. Well, that is regulated entirely by the merchandise 
 rate; for instance, take a 50-pound package from Washington to 
 New York under section A rate, we would charge 63 cents, because 
 the merchandise rate from Washington to New York is $1.25 per 
 hundred pounds. If a package only weighed 10 pounds, you can 
 see that figured out at 1 cent and a quarter a pound it would only be 
 13 cents ; but there is a minimum provided at 35 cents, and we would 
 make that charge. 
 
 The Chairman. Let us take concrete examples and take section A 
 and assume that we wish to send from your office here in Washing- 
 ton a package coming under section A, weighing 11 pounds, to New 
 York, and a similar package from Washington to Chicago, and a 
 similar 'package from Washington to Portland, Oreg. What would 
 be your charges to those three points on those 11-pound packages, 
 similar in contents, and coming within section A? 
 
 Mr. Btjechler. From Washington to New York it would be 35 
 cents, from Washington to Chicago it would be 35 cepts, and from 
 Washington to Portland, Oreg., it would be $1.49. 
 
 The Chairman. That is for 11 pounds? 
 
 Mr. Btjechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. The charge would be the same, whether it was 1 
 pound or 11 pounds, from Washington to New York and Washington 
 to Chicago? 
 
 Mr. Btjechler. No, sir; 1 pound, it would be 25 cents to both 
 places. 
 
 The Chairman. I thought the minimum charge under section A 
 would be 35 cents? 
 
 Mr. Btjechler. Yes, sir; but we have a proviso whereby if the 
 merchandise rate is cheaper we. are to use that, and the merchandise 
 rate from either Chicago or New York would be cheaper — 25 cents. 
 
 Tha Chairman. So that your charge to New York and Chicago 
 would be 25 cents on this 11-pound package. Would it be the same if 
 it was a 1-pound package? 
 
 Mr. Btjechler. In the Chicago and New York instance — yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And your charge was what on your 11-pound 
 package to Portland, Oreg. ? 
 
PAECEL POST. 1211 
 
 Mr. Buechlee. $1.49. 
 
 The Chairman. Portland, Oreg., being, roughly, three times the 
 distance from Washington to Chicago? 
 
 Mr. Buechlee. I think it would be more than three times distant. 
 
 The Chairman. How much greater would the distance be? It 
 would not be four times the distance, would it ? 
 
 Mr. Btjechler. Say, roughly, three times. 
 
 The Chairman. Yet your charge on a distance radius should be 
 only possibly three times the distance, 75 cents, and yet you charge 
 $1.49. 
 
 Mr. Buechler. On 11 pounds, $1.49; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Although you only charge 25 cents for that same 
 package from here to Chicago ? 
 
 Mr. Btjechler. No, sir; we charge 35 cents on an 11-pound pack- 
 age from Washington to Chicago and 25 cents on a 1-pound package. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, 35 cents ; three times that would be $1.05, if 
 it was on a distance basis, as against $1.49, the actual charge on 11 
 pounds. 
 
 Mr. Btjechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the reason for making an apparent extra 
 charge of 44 cents there, based on a distance radius ? 
 
 Mr. Btjechler. I could not answer that, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. Those are simply your instructions from the 
 home office? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, we come down to section E. What is your 
 minimum charge in section E ? 
 
 Mr. Btjechler. The minimum charge would be 15 cents when 
 carried by one company. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that on an ounce basis or a pound basis, do you 
 figure? 
 
 Mr. Btjechler.- That is the minimum; that is on an ounce. On 
 section E our charges are regulated on the ounce. 
 
 The Chairman. E is 15 cents minimum on an ounce basis? 
 
 Mr. Btjechler. Yes, sir ; for one company. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, where there are two? 
 
 Mr. Btjechler. Or when the rate does not exceed $8 per hundred. 
 
 The Chairman. In value? . , 
 
 Mr. Buechler. No; $8 per hundred pounds. That is where our 
 merchandise rate does not exceed $8 per hundred and the shipment 
 is carried by one company or carried between common points. Ihen 
 the minimum charge is 15 cents. But if it is carried between two 
 points, one of which is an exclusive office, then the minimum charge 
 
 is 20 cents 
 
 The Chairman. Then the division would be 10 cents for your own 
 company and 10 cents for the company to whom you transferred, 
 who had the exclusive point of destination ? 
 
 Mr. Buechlee. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. In that connection I would like to ask why it is 
 that you doubled your minimum in section A, 10 cents being your 
 minimum ■ and where you transfer to another company with an ex- 
 clusive point of destination you charge 20 cents, each company 
 sharing equally that 20 cents— that is, each company receiving 10 
 cen t s _ w hy, in section E, where vour minimum charge is 15 cents, 
 
1212 PARCEL POST. 
 
 and under similar conditions that you transfer to a company having 
 an exclusive point of destination, you do not double there, but only 
 make your minimum 20 cents, each sharing in the 20, receiving 10 
 each ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. You mean why it is in section A that we do not 
 say it is 70 cents ? Is that the idea ? 
 
 The Chairman. Was it D your minimum was 10 cents? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. The minimum as I understand in D is 10 cents; 
 your charge is 20 cents to the consumer wherever you have to de- 
 liver for an exclusive point of a company to whom you transfer. 
 
 Mr. Buechler. The minimum is 20 cents ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And each company gets 10 cents of that 20 cents 
 minimum charge ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. In E your minimum charge is 15 cents, but where 
 you deliver or transfer to another company having the exclusive 
 point of destination the minimum becomes 20 instead of 30, as it 
 would if you adopted the same plan you apparently have adopted 
 in D. What I am trying to get is the reason for doubling the mini- 
 mum in D where you transfer to a company with an exclusive point 
 of destination and you do not in E. 
 
 Mr. Buechler. I could not answer that question, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. That is up to the New York office, I suppose ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you give a concrete example of what your 
 charge would be on 11 pounds under section E from Washington to 
 New York, Washington to Chicago, and Washington to Portland, 
 Oreg. 
 
 Mr. Buechler. In the Washington to New York shipment 11 
 pounds would be 55 cents and from Washington to Chicago 11 
 pounds would be 85 cents. Washington to Portland, Oreg., $1.65. 
 Now, I have used the merchandise rate in that instance, because in 
 every case it would be cheaper than the section rate. If we charged 
 the straight section rate, it would be $1.76 at 1 cent an ounce. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What would it be to Missoula, Mont, ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. On 11 pounds? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Buechler. $1.60. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What was it to Portland, Oreg. ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. $1.65. 
 
 The Chairman. But they take the merchandise rate instead of the 
 section E rate, which would be $1.76, and it would be exactly 1 cent 
 an ounce, don't you see? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know or have you information there which 
 would enable you to designate exactly what the express companies 
 cover as merchandise? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. No, sir ; I could only answer as I did before. Take 
 the different classes out and what is left is merchandise. 
 
 The Chairman. Then do you know or have you the information 
 that you could give to the committee as to what constitutes the dif- 
 ferent classes, so that the committee, by the process of elimination of 
 
PAECEL POST. 1213 
 
 those articles, constituting the different classes, can ascertain as to 
 what merchandise covers, according to express operation ? 
 
 Mr. BiiEciiLER. I do not know just exactly how to answer that. 
 The only way that I could answer that would be to take the articles 
 higher and lower than merchandise and all the rest 
 
 The Chairman. But that looks to me like getting the horse before 
 the cart. You only ascertain what is merchandise after you have 
 made your different classes, and whatever is left constitutes mer- 
 chandise, according to the express company's use, if I correctly un- 
 derstood you in your answer to the question. 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Generally speaking, any ordinary shipment would 
 be merchandise. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What would be an ordinary shipment? Take a 
 package of photographs — for instance, a picture. 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Photographs would be classified under section D 
 rates. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Are they enumerated under section D? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir ; we have them enumerated. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Everything is enumerated that goes under sec- 
 tion D ? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Have you got a list of the articles enumerated 
 under this section? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And everything else is merchandise? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. No, sir; there are articles classified as higher than 
 merchandise, such as animals and, for instance, rowboats. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is a specific classification, is it? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How many of those articles are there? Have 
 you a different classification for that? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. We have a classification which specifies these vari- 
 ous articles to be handled at higher rates than merchandise. 
 
 Senator Bristow. So that would be really a fourth classification? 
 You have the sections, then this specific classification, and then you 
 have everything else as merchandise? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Well, we have articles classified higher than mer- 
 chandise ; that would be another classification. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Have you got the blanks showing these various 
 classifications, or is it in the book? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. It is printed in our classification book. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You say you figured the merchandise rate be- 
 cause it was cheaper. Would you always figure the merchandise 
 rate? Name something that would not be merchandise that you ship 
 under the classifications. 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Printed matter, pamphlets. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What is printed matter? What is the rate on 
 printed matter? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. That is 8 cents a pound. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Books? 
 
 Mr. Buechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The same as the postal rate? 
 
1214 PABCKL POST. 
 
 Mr. Bueohler. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What I wanted to get at was some way by which 
 an ordinary citizen could determine what would be the express rate 
 on his package and know what classification it came under; how he 
 could do it. 
 
 Mr. Bxjechler. An ordinary shipment would be classed as mer- 
 chandise. If a man brings a box in the office with him we ask him 
 what is in it, and if he says meat we would give him the meat rate, a 
 general special rate. If he says there is merchandise in there, by 
 that he would mean possibly a suit of clothes or like a Christmas 
 box, that would be classified under merchandise. If he brings a 
 piece of furniture in for shipment, we would classify that under 
 furniture. If he brings a crate of animals, a crated dog, for in- 
 stance, we would classify that under animals. 
 
 The Chairman. Could you prepare a statement and submit it to 
 the committee in the near future giving distinctly the articles cov- 
 ered by divisions A, D, arid E; the articles carried higher than the 
 merchandise rate, the articles bearing a lower rate than the mer- 
 chandise rate, and a statement that everything else included or 
 enumerated in the articles specified under the three sections and 
 the three classifications of articles carrying a higher and those carry- 
 ing a lower rate than the merchandise rate would fall under the mer- 
 chandise rate? 
 
 Mr. Bxjechler. A copy of our classifications, I believe, would be 
 the best statement. 
 
 The Chairman. We will be glad to have you file a copy of it with 
 the committee. 
 
 Mr. Bxjechler. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee are greatly obliged to you, Mr. 
 Buechler, for coming before us. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. WILLIAM C. JOHNSON, AGENT OF THE 
 UNITED STATES EXPRESS CO., AT WASHINGTON, D. C. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Johnson, it will be necessary that you be 
 sworn. 
 
 Thereupon the witness was duly- sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Johnson, will you kindly state your full name, 
 age, residence, and present occupation? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. William C. Johnson, age 45, residence 434 Fourth 
 Street NE. ; occupation, agent of the United States Express Co., 
 Washington, D. C. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you held the position as agent 
 for the United States Express Co., at Washington, D. C. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. A little over 13 years. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you held any other positions with the ex- 
 press company or other companies prior to the 13 years' occupation 
 of the agency of the company ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. I have. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly state what? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Well, I have been with the company, all told, a little 
 over 26 years, and have filled various positions. 
 
PAEOEL POST. 1215 
 
 The Chairman. How many offices or buildings has the United 
 States Express Co. here in Washington ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Three that they maintain absolutely, the main office 
 and two branch offices; two subagencies, one in Georgetown and one 
 in Anacostia, which are maintained by the drug stores who represent 
 us. Of course, we pay them a commission on the business that is 
 handled through their offices. 
 
 The Chairman. You have three buildings ? 
 
 ,Mr. Johnson. We have three buildings. 
 
 The Chairman. In one of these the floor space you rent from the 
 terminal company? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. The main office and warehouse. 
 
 The Chairman. What space clo you occupy in the terminal com- 
 pany's building, the south end of the express building ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. The basement floor has 9,649 square feet, the track 
 floor 8,647 square feet, the office floor 8,797 square feet, a total of 
 27,093 square feet. The basement driveway has 12,635 square feet. 
 
 The Chairman. The basement driveway, as I understand, is not 
 used at all in the way of transfer of packages or the storing of pack- 
 ages or anything of that kind. It is in a way utilized as a transfer ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. It is used by automobiles. 
 
 The Chairman. In your approaches and exits? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes; in backing up to the warehouse to load and 
 unload the freight. It is absolutely necessary. The track-level drive- 
 way has 6,318 square feet, making a total driveway space of 18,953 
 square feet. The track space provided for the handling of express 
 cars has to take care of 27 65-foot cars, of which the United States 
 Co. has a proportion of 36 per cent. 
 
 The Chairman. If the railroads did the business themselves this 
 track space would be part of the terminal facilities of the railroad. 
 It would be necessary for the handling of the business, but could 
 hardly be charged to the express company as part of the space occu- 
 pied in the conduct of their business and would be rather rightfully 
 charged to the railroad in its transaction of business, would it not? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. No, sir; this space is necessary for the loading and • 
 unloading of our cars. These cars are placed on the space I have 
 mentioned and are loaded and unloaded from these platforms in that 
 space except certain express matter unloaded over in the station. 
 
 The Chairman. In the space you have designated there are some 
 19,000 square feet, in round numbers, of which you utilize 36 per cent 
 of that, handling 36 per cent of the business that is transacted over 
 that track space. Is that right ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. That is right ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. This information that you have just submitted to 
 the committee applies only in the way of space utilized to the ter- 
 minal, which you rent from the terminal company. Is that right? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. In connection with our express building, the ware- 
 house. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you a warehouse or building that you own 
 
 yourself ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. No; but we handle a great deal of express business 
 over in the station in addition to what is handled here at the ware- 
 house. 
 
1216 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you explain, for the information of the 
 committee, what space is represented by these two substations that 
 you have referred to, and the ownership ? Do you rent them or own 
 them ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We rent them. We have one branch office, 1415 F 
 Street NW. ; the floor space there is 591| square feet. We have an- 
 other branch office at 436 Ninth Street NW., the floor space of which 
 is 1,080 square feet. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you do all of your routing from your terminal 
 building or do you do some of it from these substations of yours? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. It is done from the terminal building. 
 
 The Chairman. What utilization do you make of the two substa- 
 tions that you have just described? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. They are for the reception of such shipments as the 
 public cares to ship through those offices. 
 
 The Chairman. They are simply assembling points, then ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes; and furnishing information to the public or 
 for the general convenience of the public. That is the object of it. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it the policy of the United States Express Co. 
 to call for packages anywhere within the city limits or not? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. It is to make calls anywhere in the prescribed limits. 
 
 The Chairman. In square miles, what territory do you cover? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Approximately 30 square miles. 
 
 The Chairman. About the same, then, as the Adams and South- 
 ern express companies? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you have a system similar to what Mr. George 
 in his testimony last Saturday submitted, namely, the arrangements 
 with a number of drug stores or concerns throughout the city that 
 they collect goods for you and pay them a charge. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We have two, one in Anacostia and one in George- 
 town. 
 
 The Chairman. "What fee do you pay to the collector in those two 
 instances ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We pay a commission of 3 cents a call and 5 cents a 
 package. 
 
 The Chairman. Kindly explain the difference between 3 cents a 
 call and 5 cents a package. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Three cents a call is where a call is taken in his 
 office for one of our wagons to call and get a shipment. Five cents 
 per package is where he receipts for the package, stores it, and takes 
 care of it in his store until our wagon calls and takes it away. 
 
 The Chairman. Do these two agents have authority to issue receipts 
 for the packages ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. They have. 
 
 The •Chairman. You are responsible for them ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. They are representing us as our agents. 
 
 The Chairman. What number of packages for your in-and-out 
 business do you think you average each, per day, from Washington? 
 
 Mr : Johnson. I did not figure an average on any number per day, 
 but it will average about 2,000 packages. 
 
 The Chairman. 2,000 in and 2,000 out ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. No; the total. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1217 
 
 The Chairman. On November 24, 1911, I sent you the following 
 letter : 
 
 United States Senate, 
 Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads. 
 
 November 21,, 1911. 
 Mr. W. C. Johnson, 
 
 Agent United States Express Co., Washington, D. C. 
 
 My Dear Sir : There will be served upon you within a few days a subpoena 
 to appear before the Senate Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads, at 201 
 Senate Office Building, to give testimony in a hearing relative to parcel post. 
 
 It is desired that you bring with you data which will enable you to answer 
 questions upon the following subjects, giving information as indicated : 
 
 The number of your office employees in this city, with their compensation; 
 the number of men employed in the collection and delivery of parcels and their 
 compensation; the number and character of vehicles employed in the collection 
 and delivery of parcels and their approximate cost ; the number of horses em- 
 ployed in the collection and delivery of parcels and their compensation; the 
 number and character of vehicles employed in the collection and delivery of 
 parcels and their approximate cost; the number of horses employed in such de- 
 livery, with their approximate cost; the cost of maintenance of collection and 
 delivery equipment, including feed and care of horses, repairs to equipment, 
 approximate depreciation, including death of horses ; approximate proportion 
 of the time of your local force and equipment devoted to collection and to deliv- 
 ery; the total number of parcels delivered on the following days during the 
 year 1911 : 
 
 January 30, February 28, March 29, April 27, May 19, July 1, August 21, 
 September 19, and October 25, with maximum, minimum, and average weights 
 of such parcels. 
 
 Do you consider the amount of delivery and collection business on the days 
 given as fairly representative of your average daily business all through the 
 year,. with the exception of the holiday season? 
 
 Give an approximate estimate of the proportionate increase in your collec- 
 tion and delivery business during the holiday season as compared with the 
 average amount of business on the days mentioned; also indicate the number 
 of square feet of floor space you have in your offices and warehouses and what 
 part of this is actually necessary and used for the handling of present business. 
 
 The purpose of these questions is to ascertain approximately the cost of 
 maintaining and operating a local collection and delivery service in case the 
 "United States should establish a general and local parcel post for the handling 
 of packages with a maximum weight limit of 11 pounds. 
 Yours, very truly, 
 
 Jonathan Bourne, Jr. 
 
 Have you been able to prepare the information requested therein? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. If you would kindly submit the same to the com- 
 mittee, we will incorporate it into the testimony. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. I will do so. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any further data not required by the 
 letter of inquiry which you think would be of any further informa- 
 tion to the committee which you could submit? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. The, average of expenses to the earnings to the 
 Washington office for the year 1911 was 25.89 per cent. 
 
 The Chairman. 25.89 per cent net earning or gross revenue re- 
 ceived according to your figures ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. No; that was the expense. The percentage of the 
 expense to the earnings was 25.89. 
 
 The Chairman. From that would we be justified in assuming that 
 the profit of the Washington office was 74 per cent plus? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. No, sir; the railroads have to be paid out of the 
 difference, the office of destination and the general office, so I do not 
 think there is much left for the company. 
 
1218 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. The railroads receiving what? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. A different percentage. Some roads receive 50, 
 some 40, and some 55. 
 
 The Chairman. Of the gross earnings ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Of the gross earnings. 
 
 The Chairman. They taking the company's statement as the basis 
 of settlement every year, or do they have a representative in the audit- 
 ing office of the company? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. That is handled entirely in the auditor's office and 
 I am not familiar with the exact system. But you must remember 
 that the office at destination also has an expense that should come out 
 of the gross earnings. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That destination is earning something itself, 
 is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. The expense is figured the same as mine. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But they are taking in money ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Certainly. 
 
 The Chairman. Every office stands by itself that way? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes ; but the company is paying out at both ends. 
 
 The Chairman. They are receiving money at both ends, too? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes ; but this is the gross earning of this office. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Johnson, you were present, if I remember, at 
 the hearing last Saturday evening, when Mr. George, the agent for 
 the Adams and the Southern Express Cos., operating in the city ol 
 Washington, testified before the committee. Do you agree pretty 
 generally with the statements made by Mr. George? Possibly I had 
 better put the question this way: If, in the evidence submitted by 
 Mr. Goerge, or the testimony given, you differ with any points that 
 he might have made, or if there is any difference in the manage- 
 ment of the United States Express Co., your company, and the man- 
 agement of the two companies, the Adams and the Southern, repre- 
 sented by Mr. George, would you explain for the benefit of the com- 
 mittee such difference as may exist? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. I did not follow Mr. George entirely in some of his 
 statements. 
 
 The Chairman. So that it would be rather impossible for you to 
 answer the question that I submit? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Then I will continue in asking specific questions. 
 
 Would j'ou kindly explain for the information of the committee 
 the average compensation that your employees receive here in this 
 city, taking them from the time that the boys come on, the smallest 
 Avage paid them, their hours of service, and their opportunities for 
 promotion upon demonstrated efficiency? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. The average salary is about $54. 
 
 The Chairman. For employees? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Employees. 
 
 Senator Bristow. $54 per month? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. In employing employees we try to make 
 a selection in getting men that can be promoted, because a man who 
 is only capable of filling a menial position is not of very much service 
 to us. In taking on wagon boys we try to get a wagon boy who is 
 capable of being promoted, and as soon as he is familiar with the busi- 
 ness so that he can be promoted he is promoted to a higher position. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1219 
 
 The Chairman. The policy being to keep promoting, so as to get 
 the best there is in the way of service. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. The policy being to show recognition of merit. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the lowest wage schedule paid by the 
 company for employees. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Wagon boys are paid $20 per month. 
 ' The Chairman. You work continuously, having two shifts? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We have in the warehouse a night and a day shift. 
 Our wagon force is limited to certain hours — from 6 to 7 p. m. 
 
 The Chairman. 6 a. m. to 7. p. m. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. 6 a. m. to 7 p. m. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do wagon boys work from 6 a. m. to 7 p. m. ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. No ; I say with the wagon service. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How many hours do the wagon boys work ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Approximately 11 hours. 
 
 Senator Bristow. For $20 a month? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. They are off in the middle of the day. The ma- 
 jority of the wagons have from one to two hours between deliveries. 
 
 The Chairman. But it is supposed to be 11 hours continuous 
 service ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. $20 per month, as Senator Bristow asked? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. But the additional inducement being the realiza- 
 tion on the part of the boy in case he demonstrates merit and effi- 
 ciency he will get a rapid promotion ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How long do you keep him at $20 a month? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Why, Senator, it depends entirely on the boy. We 
 have boys who started in at 17 years of age and have been promoted 
 to clerical positions inside of six months at $50 per month, and I 
 know of an instance where boys have started in^at that age and then 
 promoted to $75 per month inside of, I would say, two or three years. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you have many who stay at $20 per month ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We have boys who come there and promote them- 
 selves from $20 a month salary. 
 
 Senator Bristow. How many do you keep at $20 a month? How 
 many remain at that figure? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We have five at $20 now. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have they been at $20? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. A boy who starts in at $20 ; that is really the initia- 
 tion; and he is promoted- to the next highest salary at the first 
 vacancy; that is, a vacancy by a man being promoted to a higher 
 position or leaving the service. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What is the next grade above $20? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Helper. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I mean the salary. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. $22.50. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The next grade? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. $25. 
 
 Senator Bristow. What is the highest salary paid the wagon men ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. $67.50, but wagon boys or helpers are often pro- 
 moted to clerical positions. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The man who gets $67.50, what is his business? 
 
1220 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. He is the driver who makes the deliveries and col- 
 lections. 
 
 The Chairman. Have the boys the right to receive money and 
 issue receipts for packages? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. No; the driver attends to that. 
 
 The Chairman. The driver has the right, does he? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. He has. 
 
 The Chairman. He issues the receipt and is the agent of the com- 
 pany in that transaction and the company is liable for his action? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. What check has the company as to whether the 
 driver took the package C. O. D. or took it prepaid ; a carbon of the 
 receipt he issues? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. No; the driver issues a receipt and then records the 
 package on his prepaid sheet, if it' is prepaid. 
 
 The Chairman. What check would the company have if the driver 
 was careless or dishonest and took in, say, 100 packages all prepaid? 
 His record to the company showed that half of them were collect 
 and they were not on the prepaid sheet. What check would you 
 have other than the information that you would probably receive 
 ultimately in the way of a complaint from the individual to whom 
 the package was shipped? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We would not have any. 
 
 Senator Bristow. As a matter of fact, are there not a great deal 
 of double collections of that kind ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We have very few. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I have had that experience many times, espe- 
 cially during the holidays. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We try to employ high-grade men. All of our men 
 are bonded. 
 
 The Chairman. Every employee? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Every employee is bonded. 
 
 The Chairman. From the boy up? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. From the boy up. And our men are provided with 
 a number of prepaid pasters, and it is their duty on prepaid ship- 
 ments to see that that paster is pasted on at once, and if in way bill- 
 ing the shipment out it is way billed out with the name and address 
 of the shipper, the number of the prepaid paster, and to whom it is 
 prepaid. A record in the office shows exactly to whom that prepaid 
 paster is chargeable. 
 
 Senator Bristow. In sending Christmas presents I have had a 
 great deal of complaint and at times on packages I have sent there 
 have been two collections. Of course, a Christmas present is always 
 prepaid. I have known my own packages to be collected at the 
 other end. Now, that is because the driver did not report, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Because the employee, whoever received it, did not 
 do his duty; it could have been a driver and it could have been a 
 clerk. 
 
 The Chairman. It might have been a driver who in making the 
 delivery was cognizant of the fact it was prepaid but who thought he 
 could make another collection for himself ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Taking the instance of a boy at $20 per month,' 
 what is the bond you require ? ■ 
 
PARCEL POST. 1221 
 
 Mr. Johnson. He is bonded for $500. 
 
 The Chairman. What does he have to pay for that bond, the 
 premium ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. $1.50 per year. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the highest bond you require from your 
 drivers or your collectors handling packages? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. $1,500, from the collectors. The bond is regulated 
 on a salary basis. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any idea as to the probable proportion 
 the expense incident to a transaction of collection, transportation, 
 and delivery of an express package, the additional clerical force that 
 is necessary to making out receipts, designation of tariff charges, 
 issuance of waybills, investigation and segregation of accounts, prob- 
 ably bears to the total expense of the transaction ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Well, the entire time of the waybill clerk and the 
 entire time of the clerks employed in the auditing of the accounts. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, if there was but one express company in 
 the United States which did all of the express business of the United 
 States, there was no competition from any source, governmental or 
 otherwise, and the public ^as permitted to affix stamps in payment 
 of charges, the conduct of the express business would be greatly 
 cheapened, would it not, in its operations? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. If no record was taken of any shipments, the only 
 expense would be for the receiving and handling. 
 
 The Chairman. Which was paid by a stamp being affixed, and 
 your bookkeeping would be gross receipts for so many stamps sold 
 at the end of the year and your volume of business represented by 
 those gross receipts — that is, gross revenue represented by the aggre- 
 gate sum received in the sale of those stamps — would greatly cheapen 
 the present method of handling the express business. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Provided we are eliminated from all claim? 
 
 The Chairman. Your liability is limited under your various classi- 
 fications unless you receive extra compensation, which is in effect an 
 insurance, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. No. If we have no record, we have to prove the de- 
 livery of a great many packages, even of small value. 
 
 The Chairman. If there was no liability other than the liability 
 assumed by the Government under its present postal operations, 
 how then ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Our liability on a merchandise package is $50 unless 
 otherwise specified or higher value declared. 
 
 The Chairman. You are liable for $50 on any merchandise pack- 
 age ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes; unless higher valuation is declared at the time 
 of the shipment. 
 
 The Chairman. If a higher valuation is declared at the time of 
 shipment, you make extra charge because of your increased insur- 
 ance, do you not? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you one of your blank forms of receipt 
 with you ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you file it with the committee? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. 
 
1222 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. I notice in here " Not negotiable " stamped on the 
 blank form of the receipt. What is the purpose of " Not negotiable " 
 being stamped on the face of the receipt ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. To prevent anyone from issuing that receipt as rep- 
 resenting so much money to them in transferring it from one person 
 to another or selling it. 
 
 The Chairman. But the addressee could have signed this to an 
 agent or representative to make a collection from the company, could 
 he not ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Oh, yes. 
 
 The Chairman. That would be recognized by the company as an 
 attorney ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Certainly; yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Your idea being it is for the protection of the 
 addressee in case it should be lost and also to enable you to more 
 clearly follow the transaction ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. So that the receipt can not be misused. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Could you state what per cent of gross receipts 
 is expended in the payment of claims ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. No ; I could not. That does not figure through my 
 office. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Have you got that information, Mr. Chairman? 
 
 The Chairman. We have not yet. I have been told that the Inter- 
 state Commerce Commission, in their study of the express companies, 
 will probably have that information. I will say that the committee 
 thus far in its study of the parcel post has submitted a number of 
 questions to the express companies of the country, and Mr. Johnson 
 and Mr. George,- the local representatives of the three express com- 
 panies here transacting business in Washington, have kindly appeared 
 before the committee to give additional information. But we have 
 tried to avoid any duplication of effort on the part of the committee 
 with the Interstate Commerce Commission, which has been, as I 
 understand, some 18 months in their study. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Do you customarily stamp on receipts " Value asked 
 and not given " ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. When the value is not declared. 
 
 The Chairman. That is put on by a rubber stamp ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. The instructions are issued to employees that they 
 are to ask the value of every customer ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. General instructions. The object is for the mutual 
 protection of the shipper and the company. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any other rubber stamps which are used 
 in affixing to the receipt any other designations than the one I have 
 specified ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. There are certain shipments that are received at 
 owner's risk, as to the breakage. 
 
 The Chairman. That is stamped on the receipt? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. It is, as a rule. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it stamped or written on the receipt? At the 
 request of the customer or in the presence of the customer ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. It is. 
 
 The Chairman. Always? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Always. 
 
PAECEL POST. 1223 
 
 The Chairman. Is it customary for your agents- 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Well, I will say it should be. I do not issue the 
 receipt myself, but I want to put myself on record that it should be. 
 
 The Chairman. You understand that is the rule of the company 1 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes; that is the rule. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it customary for the express company's repre- 
 sentative to ask the shipper as to the nature of the contents in every 
 package ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. It is. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you assume all packages are carefully packed ? 
 You do not open packages that are received? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. They are not all carefully packed. 
 
 The Chairman. Does your liability of $50 on merchandise or 
 greater in case an insurance fee is charged, cover loss from breakage 
 or improper packing? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Well, Senator, that is the legal effect of it, which I 
 am not in a position to answer. 
 
 The Chairman. You would refer that to the claim department if 
 it came in? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes. But there are certain claims where a ship- 
 ment is broken on account of carelessness on the part of our em- 
 ployees, where the claims are settled at once. If there are certain 
 claims where it is shown conclusively the shipment was not packed 
 carefully, and the damage occurred from being improperly packed ■ 
 
 The Chairman. What is the method of the company in case claims 
 are made in that instance? Suppose a claim is presented at your 
 office here. Have you the authority to settle that claim or do you 
 refer it to the home office. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. I settle claims up to a certain amount. 
 
 The Chairman. Up to $50? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Up to $25. 
 
 The Chairman. You aim to have the value of every package af- 
 fixed by the sender of the package. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. On the receipt and the package as well. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you assemble at j'our main depot, leased from 
 the terminal company here, a number of small packages into one 
 package and put them into a box or a hamper ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We have hampers and packing trunks. We have a 
 number of packing trunks, some of which are rawhide, some are 
 heavy wooden iron-bound trunks, and small packages are packed 
 away in these trunks and handled from office to office between the 
 large -offices for the protection of the package, which facilitates very 
 much in the handling in the cars and the loading also. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you have many claims from poultry men for 
 shipments of live poultry? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Not very many. 
 
 The Chairman. In the testimony before the committee, on the 
 part of some of the poultry associations, if I remember correctly, one 
 witness stated that they shipped some 200,000,000 1-day-old chicks. 
 Do you have any of that business here in the Washington office ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. I do not have a large amount of it. The Adams and 
 Southern have more than we do. 
 
 58773— vol 5—12 5 
 
1224 PARCEL, POST. 
 
 The Chairman. In case you get shipments of that nature, do you 
 take special pains in the cars, so that they are arranged in the car 
 to get a current of air — ventilation? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes; we have men to see that the car is properly 
 ventilated for shipments of that sort and heat is turned off, a window 
 opened or door propped open, so that there will be a circulation of air. 
 - The Chairman. How many express stations or offices are there, in 
 round numbers, in your opinion, in the United States? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. There are about 30,000 express offices in the United 
 States. 
 
 The Chairman. How many in the world? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Well, I do not know. 
 
 The Chairman. Are the classifications of all the express com- 
 panies the same? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. They are. 
 
 The Chairman. They are tariff sheets? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. There might be some special rate in effect with 
 some express company on account of a commodity peculiar to that 
 section. There are some few exceptions here. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you transact any foreign business ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We do. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you do any commission business for customers? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We do in the way of recording deeds or paying 
 taxes, collecting pawn tickets, and commissions of that sort. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you receive any goods that your agents sell — 
 merchandise or farm produce — on a commission basis? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. It is not exactly in that line. We furnish to the 
 different offices a list of the different shippers. For instance, a 
 dealer here may be handling a certain line of goods that is to be 
 advertised in a certain section; in that case we put them in touch 
 with each other, so that they can make a sale or make a purchase and 
 the shipment is forwarded by our line. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose I wanted to ship a carload of apples 
 from'Medford, Oreg., to Washington City; could I consign it to you 
 here in Washington and you would try and dispose of those apples 
 here for me? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We would turn them over to a commission merchant 
 to sell. 
 
 The Chairman. What, if any, compensation would the United 
 States Express Co. receive in that transaction? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Simply the express charge. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you look upon that assistance as increased 
 good will, would you not, rather than any direct pecuniary benefit, 
 other than the express charge itself? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. That is the idea. 
 
 The Chairman. The express charge would not be increased or 
 raised because of the fact that you acted as a medium of communi- 
 cation or connection between the purchaser and the shipper? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. The charge would be just the same. 
 
 The Chairman. Could I ship direct to you as agent for the United 
 States Express Co. at Washington, D. C. ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. To be sold? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1225 
 
 The Chairman. Would you make any charge for attending to the 
 selling of that carload of apples ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. No. 
 
 The Chairman. The company would receive no additional fee? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We would turn it over to a commission merchant 
 to sell. 
 
 The Chairman. And the amount received, in case it was a C. O. D. 
 shipment, would be applied toward the payment of the express com- 
 pany's charges from Medford to Washington, D. C, and the balance 
 would be remitted by you to the shipper at Medford, Oreg., would it? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We would turn the shipment over to a commission 
 merchant to sell, and the proceeds would be remitted to the sender. 
 
 The Chairman. By the commission merchant or by you ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. By us. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose the commission merchant failed after he 
 had received the goods and the net amount received from the sale of 
 the apples was thus absorbed. Would you be responsible for the 
 net amount? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We would first endeavor to get from the shipper 
 instructions to whom it was to be turned over. 
 
 The Charman. To relieve yourself of liability? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. But in case you were not able to get those in- 
 structions you would turn it over to the commission merchant? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. To make the best sale possible of the goods. Our 
 charges, of course, would have the first lien on the receipts; the 
 balance would be remitted. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose he failed after he received the money, 
 before you got your charges back or the shipper got anything. Now, 
 would you hold the shipper responsible for. the express charges from 
 Medford. Oreg., to Washington? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. He would have to guarantee the charges before 
 shipment would be made. 
 
 The Chairman. Would not the acceptance of the apples them- 
 selves release him from any further liability, and would not your 
 company have to look to the actual shipment for your payment? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. No; we would only accept it in the beginning on 
 the shipper's guarantee of charges. 
 
 The Chairman. Then, suppose the commission merchant to whom 
 you turned over the carload of apples, after he sold them, failed, and 
 you did not get a dollar from him and was unable to. Are you re- 
 sponsible to the shipper for that failure? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We do not hold ourselves responsible. There is a 
 legal question, of course. 
 
 The Chairman. Your position being, as you understand it, that 
 it is a matter of convenience purely, for which you receive no com- 
 pensation ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes. We simply furnish addresses and names of 
 people dealing in certain commodities to people who have certain 
 commodities to sell. 
 
 The Chairman. And you receive no extra compensation for the 
 extra activity of your company? . 
 
 Mr. Johnson. No; they have to look up the financial standing of 
 the party to whom they make the shipment. 
 
1226 PAKCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. You have extra charges, do you not, for insur- 
 ance rates over and above the regular liability of $50? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. The value over $50, where the merchandise rate per 
 hundred pounds is under $3, the additional charge is 10 cents a 
 hundred. 
 
 The Chairman. Does your company transact any banking business 
 at all? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. No banking business. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you use travelers' checks? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We do. 
 
 The Chairman. Quite extensively? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes ; our travelers' checks are used very universally. 
 
 The Chairman. Over the world ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Does your company keep money on deposit at 
 important points in Europe and other countries in order to make pay- 
 ment on these checks as presented ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. That is handled through the treasurer's office. 
 
 The Chairman. You are not cognizant as to the details? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. No ; I do not know just what arrangements are made 
 about that. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any knowledge as to whether payment 
 of travelers' checks is ever refused by European bankers, so far as 
 you know. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. I have no personal knowledge of it. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know whether the bankers cashing the 
 checks get a compensation for cashing them, or is that an arrange- 
 ment between the bankers and the company with which you are not 
 cognizant ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. It is. 
 
 The Chairman. Your company handles many articles that the 
 Government does not handle under mail provisions, does it not? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. They do. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any articles that your company declines 
 to handle? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. They decline to handle explosive, and snakes not 
 boxed, for instance. 
 
 The Chairman. They are very limited, are they not? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Outside of explosives, with proper care, they 
 carry most everything? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes ; the regulations are provided by the Interstate 
 Commerce Commission for the handling of explosives, and that regu- 
 lation reads as follows : 
 
 Explosives and dangerous and inflammable oils, acids, or materials must be 
 refused, except that certain explosives and inflammable material, oils, and 
 acids may be accepted when shipped in strict compliance with rules and regu- 
 lations issued to secure the compliance with the United States law and the 
 regulations prescribed by the Interstate Commerce Commission for the trans- 
 portation of explosives, inflammable and other hazardous ariicles by express. 
 
 The Chairman. Many small packages, especially if they are to be 
 conveyed a considerable distance, are sent by mail in preference to 
 express, because the mails are cheaper, are they not? 
 
PAECEL POST. 1227 
 
 Mr. Johnson. There are packages sent by mail as well as by ex- 
 press, but what proportion I do not know. I am not in a position to 
 answer that question. 
 
 The Chairman. What would be your opinion as to the reason they 
 were sent by express rather than by mail? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. To avail themselves of a receipt and hold the ex- 
 press company liable. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the insurance feature ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. The insurance feature. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the determinate factor. Greater safety? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Greater safety and proving delivery to the con- 
 signee. 
 
 The Chairman. A number of gentlemen have testified before the 
 committee that, in their opinion, in any system of a parcel post 
 which had a flat rate, the Government would get the long and sup- 
 posedly unprofitable hauls and the express companies would take the 
 short and supposedly profitable hauls, their position being predicated 
 on the assumption that the length of haul was the determinate factor 
 in arriving at the cost of the business. I would like to ask you, as 
 a practical express manager, whether you think the length of haul on 
 parcels of 11 pounds or less in weight has such a determining in- 
 fluence as is implied in the position which these gentlemen take ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. I think that a number of shippers would still avail 
 themselves of the express on account of the insurance feature. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose the Government introduced in its en- 
 largement of the parcel post activity, as embodied in the fourth-class 
 mail privilege, an insurance feature ;. that is, an extra charge for Gov- 
 ernmental liability. Then what? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Then it is a question that I do not believe I could 
 determine. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it not true that the Government gets the bulk 
 of the small packages which the express companies could possibly 
 handle, except at a great loss under their system and method of 
 doing business, and have not the express companies established their 
 minimum rates so that any package they handle will at least pay the 
 cost of the service ? Do they knowingly do any business at a loss ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. No. They figure a rate that will or should bring a 
 profit. 
 
 The Chairman. Is it their policy to make all of the business pay 
 in the case of every transaction or do they do some business at a 
 loss, on the theory that on the bulk of the business they make a profit 
 and the business carried at a loss adds to their good will and brings 
 in sufficient' business which brings in a good profit to average up and 
 make their statement at the end of the year show the balance on the 
 credit side ? 
 Mr. Johnson. I have no knowledge of any such system. 
 The Chairman. You are not personally familiar with their 
 method of making up the tariff sheets ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. The tariffs are made by the superintendent of 
 traffic. 
 
 The Chairman. And you would not be qualified, then, to pass upon 
 whether in making up the tariff sheets they formulate part of it, so 
 as to make a lower tariff where it comes in competition with the gov- 
 ernmental operation under the fourth-class mail matter? 
 
1228 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. No; I am not in a position to state how the traffic 
 department figures on those rates. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you make any local deliveries in the cities, in 
 the way of telephone directories, magazines, newspapers, or catalogs ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We make no local express deliveries at all. 
 
 The Chairman. The days that you submitted the written infor- 
 mation in reply to my letter to you, the nine days, if I remember cor- 
 rectly, taken over the year would represent fairly the average of the 
 year's business, would they not ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. They do. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you an increased business about holiday 
 time? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We have. 
 
 The Chairman. Extending over how many days, do you think? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. It varies. Sometimes it strings out and at other 
 times the rush comes in a few days. Sometimes it is five or six days. 
 This past Christmas it strung out for a week or 10 days. • 
 
 The Chairman. Would you say 10 days would cover the extra load? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. During that 10 days of extra load, or during 5 days 
 of the 10 days showing the peak of the load, what' in your opinion 
 would be the increase over the normal average ? Double ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. I figured that out. It is in that statement you 
 have there. Taking the business for nine days during the heaviest 
 holiday business, it shows an increase of 43 per cent over the days 
 mentioned in your letter, which is an average of the general business. 
 
 The Chairman. So that you might have 3,000 pieces of in-and-out 
 business during nine days of the holiday season as against an average 
 of 2,000 pieces during the rest of the year? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. During the holiday season, this increased load 
 period of nine days, you have to make extra preparations in anticipa- 
 tion of? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We do. 
 
 The Chairman. You have no difficulty in doing it? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. None whatever. I will say that we have a great deal 
 of trouble to get competent men to handle the business just the same 
 as the regular men. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you require your extra men put on during the 
 holiday rush business or increased business period to take out bonds? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. No employee is engaged without a bond? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. No ; the bonding of Christmas employees, however, 
 i^ carried by the company — that is, the company pays the premium 
 in a number of instances where they are only employed for a few. 
 days. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you in a position to state whether your com- 
 pany is in favor of or is opposed to the Government increasing its 
 present parcel-post activity by increasing the weight limit and de- 
 creasing the rate of postage ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. I have never heard an expression on that. 
 
 The Chairman. Matters of that kind would be handled, probably, 
 in the way of opposition or support, through the legal department or 
 (he main office? 
 
PARCEL POST. 1229 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes; I was going to add to my statement just now, 
 from the management. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any points that you think of, Mr. John- 
 son, that you could submit to the committee 'that you believe would 
 be of value to us in our study of the parcel post,' probably that we 
 have not touched upon in the hearing this morning? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. No; in my own opinion, though, I believe that it 
 would cost the Government a great deal more to handle the same 
 amount of business that we handle than it costs us. 
 _ The Chairman. On what reasoning do you come to that conclu- 
 sion? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Well, the number of hours that the Government 
 employees work are much less than ours, and it would take possibly 
 three sets of men to do what two do with us. 
 
 The Chairman. Are you not predicating your opinion upon the 
 assumption that the Government would be starting in the express 
 business de novo, rather than utilizing the machinery that they already 
 have in existence, and eliminating some of the details which you arc 
 required to carry out now in the way of issuance of receipts, way- 
 bills, and checks on your business, which they would not have to do 
 or do not do in the transaction of the fourth-class mail business? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. No. I had reference to deliveries and collections of 
 mail matter, the handling in loading to and from trains, handling 
 on the trains 
 
 The Chairman. Would not the Government have this advantage 
 over the express companies that they have a great number of sub- 
 stations or subagencies, so that the assembling is done in reality by 
 the public, or if boxes were established under a plan that might be 
 adopted, the public might deposit their articles in these boxes and 
 the packages would be assembled by the public, whereas you have to 
 make your own collections noAV in the bulk of the business? That 
 would be a saving to the Government, would it not? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. That is true, providing the substation could take 
 care of the amount of packages that were offered there. If it was 
 not for our wagon service in calling for packages, the branch offices 
 and subagencies we have could not take care of those packages. 
 
 The Chairman. The Government already has its vehicles and 
 methods of collection. They handle to-day, according to what I 
 understand to be the latest reports issued by the department, about 
 185,000,000 pieces, in round numbers, of fourth-class mail. All the 
 express companies of the United States, as I understand and ac- 
 cording to the information submitted to me, which I believe to be 
 good, handle about 300,000,000 pieces of express matter, or did handle 
 last year about that amount. Thirty per cent of that amount, or 
 90,000,000 pieces, are 11 pounds or less ; consequently, under existing 
 business, if you increase the Government activity of parcel post as 
 represented under the fourth-class mail privilege by increasing the 
 weight from 4 to 11 pounds, to my mind you simply have 90,000,000 
 more pieces of fourth-class mail matter that you could possibly get 
 if you got all of the express business of the United States falling 
 under 11 pounds under the present volume of business transacted. 
 That is not going to break down the postal department, neither is it 
 going to bankrupt the express companies, although it would affect 
 
1230 PARCEL POST. 
 
 them, undoubtedly, to a certain extent. But they would not get all 
 of that business. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Oh, no. 
 
 The Chairman. And it would be a growth, necessarily. There 
 would be, in my opinion — and I am simply stating my own opinion — 
 under an increased weight from 4 to 11 pounds and a material de- 
 creased postage on fourth-class mail matter, the creation of a consid- 
 erable new business which nobody gets to-day. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Well, the handling of your matter on trains making 
 local deliveries as it is now, is you make deliveries of mail on through 
 fast express trains to local points by throwing the mail bag off. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a matter of detail that has to be worked 
 out. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Eleven-pound packages would have to be handled on 
 local trains and would require, I would imagine, additional postal 
 service where you haven't it now. • 
 
 The Chairman. That would be a point that would have to be con- 
 sidered in the study. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. It is an expense that would meet some of the other 
 expenses that we have to have in the handling of our business. 
 
 The Chairman. You do not give the same service that the Govern- 
 ment gives in the way of rapidity in the handling of first-class mail, 
 do you ? In other words, there are mail trains made up on which no 
 express cars are handled? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. We have fast express trains. 
 
 The Chairman. Eun separately? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Eun separately. 
 
 The Chairman. But in conjunction with mail? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Mail cars are attached to some of them. 
 
 The Chairman. But there are mail trains making the fastest time 
 made to which there are no express cars attached, are there not, on 
 some of the trunk lines ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Giving the quickest service there is? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. I do not believe that the time of shipment or the 
 time for deposit of the mail or the time it is delivered into the hands 
 of the addressee in many cases is quicker than express shipments. 
 
 The Chairman! Does not the express company meet with the same 
 difficulty which you have advanced that the Government would 
 probably meet with in the way of unloading or putting off 11-pound 
 packages from their fast trains? You can not throw your express 
 matter off of the train while it is in transit ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Well, we have express-messenger service on a num- 
 ber of local trains where there are no postal clerks or the Post Office 
 Department has no postal service in the way of postal clerks. 
 
 The Chairman. You route all of your goods, do you not, from your 
 point of initiation so as to get the faster service commensurate with 
 the transportation facilities now in existence? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Would not the postal service do the same? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Why, I should imagine they would. 
 
 The Chairman. There would not be any great difficulty there? 
 
 Mr. -Johnson. I would say that they would have to have postal 
 service or postal clerks on local trains to make deliveries at these 
 
PARCEL POST. 1231 
 
 points where through trains do not stop. I am just expressing my 
 own opinion on that. 
 
 The Chairman. We are glad to get your opinion. But the Gov- 
 ernment handles fourth-class mail matter to-day up to 4 pounds. 
 The increase from 4 to 11 pounds under their present governmental 
 machinery should not be a prohibition or a greater increased expense 
 if they utilized the machinery that is already in existence, should it? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. A 4-pound package will stand handling that an 
 11-pound package will not in throwing it off at a station. The weight 
 of an 11-pound package, in my opinion, would have to be pretty 
 strongly wrapped not to break if thrown off in a mail bag. 
 
 The Chairman. Under an 11-pound maximum privilege of fourth- 
 class mail matter the average would probably be from 3 to 4 pounds 
 of the business transacted. So the condition you mention would only 
 apply to probably exceptional cases in which, in your opinion, a 
 slower service would have to be made or an additional cost incurred 
 for the transaction of the business? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. If it was based assuming that you would carry a 
 quantity of packages weighing in the neighborhood of 11 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. As I said before, that would be a matter of detail 
 that would have to be worked out by the Post Office Department and 
 arrangements made for, but which you are perfectly right in men- 
 tioning the fact that the committee has to take into consideration in 
 their study. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. There is a question of expense entirely. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any other points that you think of? 
 First, let me say, as I understand your previous testimony, your 
 drivers, or many or all of them, are authorized to collect packages. 
 If I am correct in my understanding of your testimony, doubtless 
 they can make the rates and tell the shipper as to what the rates 
 will be. Wherever they haven't that knowledge, then they have to 
 wait until the packages reach the office before the rate is made? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. That is true. The driver is competent to make 
 rates, and does make rates in many cases, on shipments and collect 
 the charges. However, in some cases where the weight can not be 
 determined, or the correct through rate, the charge is not collected 
 until it has been ascertained from the office. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any other points which you think of 
 you could give the committee? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. I do not know of any, Senator. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee are obliged to you for your views. 
 
 Thereupon, at 2.15 o'clock p. m., the committee took a recess until 
 4.30 o'clock p. m. 
 
 AFTER RECESS. 
 
 Present: Hon. Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman). 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Johnson, you have asked permission to eluci- 
 date the statement in reference to the hypothetical shipment of a 
 carload of apples from Medford, Oreg., to Washington, D. C, being 
 consigned to the United States Express Co. here. 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes. I will read from our instructions : 
 
 Shipments of any kind of produce may be made through the company's 
 agents, addressed to the order and commission department at any place at 
 which the company has an agent, to be sold to the best advantage. 
 
1232 PAECEL POST. 
 
 The express company, therefore, simply acts as the intermediary, 
 and no charge is made for this service except the regular express 
 rates applicable to the shipment. 
 
 The Chairman. Is that all you care to say ? 
 
 Mr. Johnson. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee are much obliged to you. 
 
 TESTIMONY OF MR. THOMAS E. BURGESS. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Burgess, it is necessary that you be sworn. 
 Thereupon the witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you please state your full name, age, resi- 
 dence, and present occupation? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Thomas E. Burgess; age 32; 504 E Street NE., 
 Washington, D. C. ; rate clerk, United States Express Co. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you been rate clerk for the United 
 States Express Co. ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. About nine months. 
 
 The Chairman. Prior to that time were you connected with the 
 company ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. How long have you been connected with the com- 
 pany? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. A year and a half, about. 
 
 The Chairman. Were you ever connected with a railway company? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. In the traffic department ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. No, sir; the accounting department. 
 
 The Chairman. There are, in round numbers, about 30,000 express 
 offices or agencies in the United States, are there not? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. About 30,000 express agencies. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any knowledge as to the number 
 throughout the world ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Is the express business in the United States re- 
 stricted exclusively to those 30,000 agencies, or do the companies 
 accept goods to be delivered to other points outside of the 30,000 
 designated agencies? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. They accept express matter for all places where there 
 is an express office outside of the country and abroad. 
 
 The Chairman. But in the United States proper, would you accept 
 packages to be delivered at some other point in the country where 
 you did not have an office? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. We would accept an express package for any place 
 in the United States where there is an express office, with the ex- 
 ception of exclusive offices of the Adams Express Co. and the South- 
 ern Express Co. 
 
 The Chairman. They have exclusive offices of their own? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you accept packages directed to those exclusive 
 offices of the Adams or Southern Cos. and then transfer them to 
 the Adams and Southern as a matter of courtesy, but for which you 
 receive no compensation? 
 
PARCEL POST. 1233 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Do they reciprocate with you ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose a customer brought a package to your 
 office here- in Washington addressed to a town in California of two 
 or three hundred population, but in which town you had no express 
 office, though you had one in a town 3 or 4 miles distant. Would 
 you accept that package? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. You mean if there was no express company there at 
 all, or just the United States Express Co. ? 
 
 The Chairman. If there was no express office at all at that town ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. We would transfer it, according to the contract 
 shown on the shipping receipt, to the nearest express office to that 
 town. 
 
 The Chairman. And upon arrival there what would happen? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Well, according to the instructions issued to the 
 agencies of this company, we would notify the consignee by postal 
 card that that shipment was held at their risk at that office. 
 
 The Chairman. Although that office might be 4 miles away from 
 where the consignee lived ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. The charge for the package would. simply be the 
 rate between Washington and your office at the nearest town ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You would take a package collect under an illus- 
 tration of that kind ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. We would take a package collect provided it was 
 worth the charges and there is an agent at that express office. 
 
 The Chairman. What is the purpose of Bullinger's Postal and 
 Shippers' Guide for the United States and Canada? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. That is issued by the publishing company for the 
 information of the public or whoever cares to buy the book. 
 
 The Chairman. Do the express offices use it? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. We use it for our own information. We have an 
 express guide issued by our traffic department that governs our work 
 in finding what express office is nearest the town that has no express 
 office. 
 
 The Chairman. The purpose of the guide is to furnish you and the 
 public information not contained in your own guide? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Bullinger's? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Burgess. We have never been furnished instructions to use 
 Bullinger's Guide; the United States Express Co. is not furnished 
 that information. We have an express guide of our own that we use. 
 
 The Chairman. A guide which gives all the information contained 
 in Bullinger's Guide, or all that you deem you need in the operation 
 of the United States Express Co.'s business ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. It simply gives the name of every town in the United 
 States, the express company going to that town, provided there is an 
 express company going there. If there is no express company going 
 there, it shows the nearest express office to that point. 
 
 The Chairman. Then each one of your agents has one of those 
 guides giving this information ? 
 
1234 PAECBL POST. 
 
 Mr. Burgess. I am not in a position to state that. I can only an- 
 swer according to the Washington office. The Washington office has 
 one. 
 
 The Chairman. Has one? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Yes; every employee who has reasons to quote rates 
 or to assess rates on packages has one of those books. 
 
 The Chairman. Bullinger's Guide that I have before me contains 
 1.172 pages. Are your guides as voluminous as this? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. They are much larger, but not quite as thick. They 
 have, I imagine, practically the same names in here. The Bullinger 
 Guide gives more information, inasmuch as it shows exactly what 
 branch of a railroad a place is on. Take, for instance, if we had a 
 shipment for a place on the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad between here 
 and Baltimore, we would first turn to the name of the place we 
 wanted, and in the next column it would show small figures which 
 designates what railroad that station is on. The railroads are num- 
 bered on these pink sheets. We turn, then, to these pink sheets and 
 find what railroad that is on. After the railroad numbers there are 
 similar numbers which show what branch of that railroad this sta- 
 tion is on. That does not show in our express guide. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you examine your guide and quote me the 
 rate on ll'pounds of shoes from here to Sparta, Oreg. ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess'. Now, if I had my express guide here I would look 
 at that. 
 
 The Chairman. Can you look at Bullinger's? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. I can look at that; yes, sir. The rate on an 11-pound 
 package would be $1.60. 
 
 The Chairman. The time consumed in securing the information 
 upon which you answered the question was 2 minutes and 10 seconds. 
 Would you explain to the committee jouv method of securing the 
 information on which you base your, answer to the question? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Sparta, Oreg., is not shown in the joint-basing trans- 
 fer tariff as being an express office; therefore I had to look in Bul- 
 linger's Guide to see what express office that guide showed as being 
 nearest to Sparta. I then had to look in the joint-basing transfer 
 tariff to figure out the lowest rate from Washington to Robinette, 
 which Bullinger's Guide shows is the nearest express office. I then 
 had to examine the two books to see which would make the lowest 
 charge according to the instructions — to quote the lowest through rate. 
 
 The Chairman. How much time would be consumed in making 
 out the receipt ordinarily in making the change and receiving the 
 package? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. It would be a very short time. It takes very little 
 time to make out the receipt and weigh the shipment, most of the 
 time being consumed in finding the lowest rate. 
 
 The Chairman. It would probably take a. minute to weigh the 
 shipment, make the change, and make out the receipt? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. I should think about that. 
 
 The Chairman. Does the business during the holiday season vary 
 from your ordinary business ? In other words, do you get a different 
 class of business; have many more new addresses in the way of 
 locality? • 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Yes. sir. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1235 
 
 The Chairman. Than you do in your ordinary run of business? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. As a rule ; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you imagine Bullinger's Guide contains any 
 towns that have not post offices? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. No, sir; I do not think so. It is called Bullinger's 
 Postal and Shippers Guide for the United States and Canada, so 
 from that I assume that it contains all post offices. 
 
 The Chairman. In this shipment of 11 pounds of shoes to Sparta, 
 Oreg., would you have to write a postal card to the consignee there 
 that you had shipped to Robinette? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. No, sir. If it was an office of the United States Ex- 
 press Co. our agent at Robinette would notify the shipper that there 
 was on hand with him a package. The shipping point lias nothing 
 at all to do with that part. 
 
 The Chairman. You waybill to the agent at Robinette ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Yes, sir: it would be waybilled to him by our way- 
 bill clerk. 
 
 The Chairman. And he notifies the consignee? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you have two books that you have to examine 
 in the ascertainment of rates on packages in the general business that 
 you carry out, or do you get all the information m one book ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Our instructions are to place them in as few books 
 as we can. I get my tariffs in two books. 
 
 The Chairman. £ould you explain what particular information is 
 contained in each book? 
 
 _ Mr. Burgess. The first book contains the rules for the transporta- 
 tion of Government money, the rates on shipments destined to for- 
 eign countries, rates on shipments from Vallejo, Gal., to certain places, 
 name!}-. Baltimore, Md. ; Camden, N. J.; Philadelphia, Pa.; Wash- 
 ington, D. C. ; and Wilmington, Del. 
 
 The Chairman. All being the same rate or different from Vallejo ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. They are the same. That only applies on Govern- 
 ment business. 
 
 The Chairman. Let me ask you, is it necessary in the ordinary 
 conduct of the business to examine both of these books, or have you 
 got the information, all that is necessary, in one book for the general 
 run of your business ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. No, sir; it is necessary to refer to the second book 
 only when the shipment is destined to an exclusive office of another 
 company, with the exception, of course, of the Adams and Southern 
 Express Cos., which we invariably decline to quote rates to. 
 
 The Chairman. Then how can you take business at your office 
 when the destination is an exclusive point of the Adams or Southern 
 Express Co. and then, through courtesy, hand that package to one 
 of those companies, which, I understood, a little while ago was your 
 custom here? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. I believe in most of the cases that is done with the 
 merchants, most of whom have charge accounts, and we charge them 
 and the Adams and the Southern Express Cos. charge us. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you would take no prepaid articles to any 
 exclusive points controlled by the Adams or Southern companies if 
 one of your customers asked you to do so here in Washington? 
 
1236 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Oh, yes, sir. We can get the rate in a very few 
 minutes, either by calling up or, as Mr. Beuchler said, we sometimes 
 know them. 
 
 The Chairman. But I understood you a moment ago to say that 
 you declined to quote any rates on exclusive points on the Adams 
 and Southern Express Co. routes? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. It was not my intention to convey that idea. My 
 intention was to convey the idea that I do not. I, as rate clerk, in- 
 variably decline to quote rates to points on the Southern and Adams 
 Express Co.'s routes and refer them to the Adams Express office. 
 
 The Chairman. Will your drivers accept packages when they go 
 to pick up? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. I believe they do as a courtesy to the public. 
 
 The Chairman. But they can not accept collections if you, the 
 rate clerk here at the head of that department in this office, declined 
 to quote a rate on those exclusive points of these two other com- 
 panies? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. I do not furnish rates to everybody in the office. I 
 furnish rates to people who call up on the telephone or write in for 
 rates. They nave other means; there are other employees down- 
 stairs in the warehouse who have complete tariffs and are in a posi- 
 tion to secure any rate they want. We have rates to these points on 
 the Adams Express routes, but we are not authorized to quote them 
 to. the public. 
 
 The Chairman. Why? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. I do not know why it is. I simply comply with the 
 instructions. 
 
 The Chairman. Those are your instructions, but the reasons for 
 the same you are not cognizant of ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. The Adams and the Southern, would they accept 
 packages for exclusive United States Express Co. points and turn 
 them over to you ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. I believe they do such things. 
 
 The Chairman. Do they not quote the rates to their customers 
 when requested to do so, if a customer desires to prepay a package? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. I am not in position to state that. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you the knowledge as to the number of offices 
 that the United States Express Co. has of its own in the United 
 States? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. I do not know exactly, but I believe we have some 
 blanks at the office which say about 4,800. Whether that is right or 
 not I do not know. 
 
 The Chairman. Does the United States Express Co. cover the 
 whole of ibe country or is it restricted and confined to certain States 
 and Territories — I mean in the location of its own offices ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Well, they are very well represented in the East; 
 they are very well represented in Texas, in Oklahoma, and there are 
 some few offices in Colorado; they are represented in Illinois, Mis- 
 souri, Michigan. What I mean by the " East " is, you might possibly 
 say east of the Mississippi River. . 
 
 The Chairman. In the list of offices in the route directory which 
 you have handed to me to demonstrate the method of conducting the 
 company's business I notice in the summary there are tables of the 
 
PARCEL POST. 1237 
 
 States in which your company operates, and that the table of the 
 summary shows: Exclusive offices, 3,194; common points, 1,532; 
 making the total number of offices 4.727, with a mileage of 33,011.81. 
 
 1 assume that since this summary was prepared doubtless some 
 changes have been made ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. The mileage designated would represent the mile- 
 age connecting all of these offices enumerated ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. I should think so. 
 
 The Chairman. Has the United States Express Co. a greater num- 
 ber, proportionately, of exclusive offices than any of the other large 
 express companies in the country ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. I have no way of knowing that unless by an actual 
 count. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you an impression? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Are your rates higher where you ship to exclusive 
 points, so far as distance covered is concerned, and where you have 
 joint offices, or lower? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. It has been my experience that it is slightly higher 
 and very often the same. 
 
 The Chairman. To joint points you have to share the charge with 
 some other company ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Not if we go to the destination point. 
 
 The Chairman. Not if you go direct. But if you transfer to any 
 other company then there is a division of the charge based upon the 
 proportion of the activity? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Based upon the proportion of the activity; yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Could you state whether the relative proportion 
 of exclusive and common point offices has been about the same in the 
 United States Express Co. over a period of years? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. I have nothing to base my knowledge on in that 
 respect. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know whether within a year the exclusive- 
 point offices or the common-point offices have shown the greater in- 
 crease, if they have either or both increased during the last year ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Well, the increase of either, I imagine, has been so 
 small that it is not worthy of any consideration. 
 
 The Chairman. In your judgment, how much longer would it take 
 
 the general average of your agents to determine the rate I asked 
 
 v you a little while ago to give me on a shipment of 11 pounds of shoes 
 
 from Washington, D. C, to Sparta, Oreg., it having taken you 
 
 2 minutes and 10 seconds, you being thoroughly familiar with the 
 question of rates ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. I should say about the same time, because they have 
 to go through the same procedure as I did. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, are they as familiar with the procedure as 
 you are? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You think they are ? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose a shipper brings in an article to you 
 which is not covered in your specification or classification, what do 
 you do in a case like that ? Use your own judgment ? 
 
1238 PAECEL POST. 
 
 Mr. Burgess. If it is not in the classification it goes as merchandise. 
 
 The Chairman. Anything not specified in your classification goes 
 as merchandise, and at the merchandise rate? 
 
 Mr. Burgess. Yes, sir ; unless it is analogous to an article specified 
 in the classification, as taking a higher rate or a lower rate, as the 
 case may be. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee are greatly obliged to you, Mr. 
 Burgess, for coming up and giving us the benefit of the information 
 you have submitted. 
 
 Thereupon, at 5.45 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned to meet 
 at the call of the chairman. 
 
 TUESDAY, APRIL 23, 1912. 
 
 Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads, 
 
 United States Senate, 
 
 Washington, D. C. 
 The subcommittee met at 8 o'clock p. m. 
 
 Present: Senators Jonathan Bourne, jr. (chairman), Briggs, and 
 Bristow: 
 
 The Chairman. Senator Gardner, we will take up your bill and 
 ask you to kindly point out to the committee the salient features of 
 the bill, dwelling on the especially important features. 
 
 STATEMENT OF SENATOR OBADIAH GARDNER. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Mr. Chairman, T do not suppose it will be nec- 
 essary to give any attention to the bill itself here at this time. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, I think it would be a good idea if you will 
 point out the strong features in the bill, if it meets with your con- 
 currence and thought, and dwell upon them in the order of their 
 importance ? 
 
 Senator Briggs. Why not let him go on according to his own idea? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. We are anxious to get your viewpoint. 
 
 Senator Gardner. The point I want to call the attention of the 
 committee to first of all is that for 20 years I have been an advocate 
 of the parcel post and during that time I have been associated 
 officially with State and national farmers' organizations, and up 
 until shortly before my coming to Washington I never had given any 
 real study to the proposition, though I was in favor of a parcel post, 
 however, without any definite plan in mind. After coming here to 
 Washington I began to give more attention to the subject, and it 
 occurred to me that any of the propositions that had been presented 
 to the public up to that time were absolutely untenable as a workable 
 proposition. In the first place, it occurred to me that it was some- 
 thing of an absurdity for the Government to take up any feature of 
 transportation that brought it in competition with private capital; 
 r.iil the more I thought of it the more strongly I became convinced 
 that if the Government was going to do anything in that line it must 
 take hold of it and operate it in precisely the same way that it did 
 the mail, by taking it over as a monopoly. I do not suppose* it is 
 necessary for me to say anything about the flat-rate proposition — 
 
PABCEL POST. 123'9 
 
 that is not involved in this proposition here to-night — and so far as 
 the more modern propositions that are being considered here at this 
 Congress are concerned, which refer to a zone system, I can not see 
 how we can adopt any such plan as that without placing the Govern- 
 ment at a disadvantage in its relations to the express companies. On 
 these limited weights and fixed rates it seems to me it is going to put 
 the express companies in the best possible position to cut rates on 
 short-haul business and turn the long-haul business over to the Gov- 
 ernment, which would be the losing end, if any. 
 
 The Chairman. May I just interrupt you in that connection? 
 That would depend, would it not, on what zones were established 
 and what rates were established? The express companies would not 
 carry a package at a loss. The application of the criticism would 
 depend entirely upon the method adopted in the determination of the 
 zones and the rates established. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes. As I understand, the express companies' 
 contracts with the railroads fix a minimum below which the express 
 companies can not go in making the rate, but there is nothing to 
 prevent their reducing the rates on short haul down to that minimum 
 in their contracts with the railroads. 
 
 The Chairman. The question then would come down to what the 
 minimum was and what zones were established by the Government 
 if they enlarged the present parcel post on a zone basis. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Necessarily, yes ; that is true. 
 
 The Chairman. I think in this connection it would be of value to 
 us if you would give your objections to and criticism of the flat rate, 
 because that system has some advocates over the country. We ar& 
 anxious to get all the information obtainable. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Briefly, my objection to the flat rate is that I 
 believe it is absolutely unsound and unbusinesslike. In the trans- 
 mission of a letter, as I look upon it, the principal element of cost is 
 the physical labor that is involved in handling the letter. 
 
 The Chairman. The pick-up and the delivery. 
 
 Senator Gardner. For instance, if you write a letter here in this 
 office and it is sent down town for delivery, the physical labor in- 
 volved is practically the same as if it went to San Francisco. Now, 
 the length of haul is immaterial because of the extreme light weight 
 of the letter, but when you get to dealing with weights, as it occurs 
 to me, you are running against the exactly opposite element. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you come into the transportation feature 
 instead of the overhead charge? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes; I think we will agree that you can not 
 carry a ton from here to Baltimore as cheap as you could carry it 
 from here to the other end of the city, and for that reason it seems 
 to me when the Government goes to carrying weights that the long- 
 haul business would necessarily be carried at a loss and the rate would 
 have to be increased on short hauls to cover the loss on the long hauls. 
 
 The Chairman. That would be an injustice, according to your 
 idea? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Why, it certainly would. . T do not see why 
 not. So far as my research has enabled me, I find that more than 75 
 per cent of the express business is confined to a distance within 200 
 
 58773— vol 5—12 6 
 
1240 PAECEL POST. 
 
 miles, and that three-fourths of the business under a flat rate would 
 be taxed to an increased amount to take care of the loss that would 
 necessarily be involved in the long-haul business. It seems to me 
 that the only fair and equitable way to establish a system of that 
 kind would be to let those pay for the service rendered, and I can not 
 see where there is anything about the flat rate that would justify the 
 Government in hauling weights across the continent at the same rate 
 that they would for short distances. That is in brief my analysis of 
 the flat-rate system. 
 ; The Chaikman. I wanted to get that into the record. 
 
 Senator Gardner. As I said before, I believe it is absolutely un- 
 tenable ; it can not be seriously considered. As I also previously said, 
 I believe that in order for the Government to do this work satisfac- 
 torily it must have a monopoly of the business. The express com- 
 panies are not situated so that they can articulate the whole country. 
 They have not even a transportation line ; they do their business over 
 existing transportation lines, and then they have re.-tricted zones of 
 delivery at either end, but when you get out beyond those zones, at 
 the present time, every one who patronizes the express service is put 
 to the expense and trouble of delivering their merchandise to the 
 express office and going to the express office for it. With the rural 
 delivery routes established, if you supplement those by the zones that 
 are now covered by the express rates, you will have a substantial 
 and complete service articulating the whole country. 
 
 The Chairman. That would be, under your idea, the arbsorption 
 of the express companies by the Government? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. And not legislation creating a monopoly of car- 
 rying the packages by the Government? 
 
 Senator Gardner. I want to say right there, Mr. Chairman, as it 
 it occurs to me, that any of the propositions I know anything about 
 that limit the weight to 11 pounds would be of very little practical 
 value to the rural people. 
 
 The Chairman. That is your judgment, is it, Senator? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes, sir; it certainly is. 
 
 The Chairman. Don't you think if they had the opportunity to 
 send by mail packages up to 11 pounds at decidedly reduced rates 
 over existing rates on fourth-class matter they would avail them- 
 selves of that? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Oh, necessarily they would so far as the oppor- 
 tunity was afforded, but with the products of the farm that limited 
 weight would hardly be of any use in a practical way to the farmers. 
 
 The Chairman. Don't you think it would be, providing there were 
 low rates in the way of shipments of eggs and garden produce, as- 
 paragus, celery, lettuce, and so on? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes; with those things, but for instance, sup- 
 posing a man wanted to order from a farmer a peck of potatoes, 
 which would be a very moderate quantity, he could not avail himself 
 of that transportation under an 11-pound limit? 
 
 The Chairman. No ; the weight limit would prohibit him. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes; that would apply to very many, in fact 
 most of the products of the farm. The 11-pound limit, it seems to 
 me, is altogether too low to be of any great practical value to the 
 most of the agricultural people. For instance, a man living in the 
 
paecel post; 1241 
 
 suburbs of a city could send in his poultry, eggs, and butter in small 
 quantities, but the one living farther out in the country would not 
 find it of much value. ■ ;• 
 
 The Chairman. Is it not your opinion that the bulk of the busi- 
 ness would be by freight, rather than by express or mail— that is-, the 
 transportation business of the country ? ■ 
 
 Senator Gardner. Oh, the bulk of it always; the wholesale busi- 
 ness will always be. 
 
 The Chairman. Take the bulk of the milk and the products' of the 
 dairy and the great quantity of eggs. Would they not all be as- 
 sembled and shipped by freight ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. I do not think they would be in the case of the 
 individual farmer. 
 ; Senator Briggs. What is your idea of the maximum weight ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. If I was going to fix the weight I should put it 
 at 30 pounds, right around that. I do not fix that as an absolute 
 amount, but I should fix it large enough so that a man could send at 
 least half a bushel of potatoes by the express service, if he cared to. 
 
 The Chairman. There is no limit fixed by express companies now 
 on express? 
 
 Senator Gardner. No; I think they carry most anything. 
 
 The Chairman. If the Government absorbed the express com- 
 panies you would not be in favor of fixing a maximum weight limit 
 at 30 pounds, would you? 
 
 Senator Gardner. No, indeed. But I am only speaking about 
 ^hese limited weights. Supposing we should finally adopt anything 
 of that sort I should say anything below 30 pounds was altogether 
 too small to be of any great practical value to the rural sections. Of 
 course the " in business " to the rural communities, as a whole, would 
 be comparatively small. 
 
 The Chairman. Then your idea would be, as I understand it, after 
 the absorption by the Government of the express companies, the 
 ascertainment of rates that would compensate the Government for the 
 operation of those companies in conjunction with the present post- 
 office facilities? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes, sir; leaving the rates automatic so that 
 they could be adjusted. 
 
 The Chairman. But self-supporting? 
 
 Senator Gardner. But self-supporting. 
 
 The Chairman. Your idea is the Government should make the 
 parcel post — whether operating it under the fourth-class mail mat- 
 ter or by absorption of the express companies — absolutely self- 
 supporting, that the charges should be the cost of the activity ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes, sir ; that is my idea exactly. I apprehend 
 that there is not anyone who wants to adopt a system that is going 
 to simplv create a deficit in the postal service, and for that reason 
 it seems to me that Congress is entirely unfit to make rates. In the 
 first place, they are not expert rate makers ; then, if they fix an arbi- 
 trary rate, it may be right and may be wrong. It has occurred to 
 me it would be largelv a matter of guess, anyway. 
 
 The Chairman. Under your bill, in whom do you centralize the 
 power of rate making— the Interstate Commerce Commission or the 
 Postmaster General? 
 
1242 PARCEL POST., 
 
 Senator Gardner. The Postmaster General, subject to appeal to 
 the Interstate Commerce Commission. The Interstate Commerce 
 Commission would have the same jurisdiction over rates on appeal 
 as they do now on other transportation. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you be kind enough to take up your bill 
 and explain what you think the strong features are and the practi- 
 cability of putting it into operation, providing it was enacted into 
 law? 
 
 Senator Gardner. The bill first provides that " The contracts and 
 agreements and arrangements of the several express companies with 
 the several railroad companies or other common carriers of the 
 United States, its Territories, and the District of Columbia, relating 
 to the collecting, receiving, caring for, storing, dispatching, for- 
 warding, and delivering by such railroad company or other common 
 carriers of parcels, packets, and packages, and other express mat- 
 ter, as well as franchises, operating equipment, cars, vehicles," and, 
 in fact, all of the physical property of the railroads, shall be taken 
 over by the Government. 
 
 The Chairman. That would be condemnation and appropriation, 
 according to the terms of your bill, of those contracts? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. What would you get after you had that? Could 
 not the railroads abrogate the contracts? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Well, I presume they could; but I question 
 whether they would or not. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose they did. What recourse would the 
 Government have? Mind you, I am not criticizing the bill, but I am 
 trying to get all the points in reference to it. 
 
 Senator Gardner. I am not sufficiently posted on the legal status 
 of it so that I should want to give a definite answer on that. I am 
 not a lawyer. I would assume that there might be a way of adjusting 
 those things the same way that they do their mail contracts. 
 
 Congressman Lewis. Would the committee resent an interruption 
 at this point? 
 
 The Chairman. No. 
 
 Congressman Lewis. I think the third clause provides, upon the 
 termination of the contract for any cause, the Postmaster General 
 shail make new contracts with the railroads, and upon their failure 
 to agree the Interstate Commerce Commission is given the power to 
 declare the terms of the contract. 
 
 The Chairman. Under the power now vested in the Interstate 
 Commerce Commission to fix rates? 
 
 Congressman Lewis. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. They have those powers already? 
 
 Congressman Lewis. Yes, sir; that is a legal phase of the matter, 
 as I understand, and Senator Gardner is not a lawyer. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, Senator Gardner, we will go on with the 
 bill. 
 
 Senator Gardner. " That the words ' express company ' as used 
 in this act shall be construed to include any corporation, "joint-stock 
 company, association, partnership, and individual, as far as engaged 
 in the collecting, receiving, caring for, storing, dispatching, forward- 
 ing, and delivering of parcels, packets, packages, and other express. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1243 
 
 matter by rail or water. And the words ' railroad ' or ' railway com- 
 pany ' shall be construed to include any transportation agency by 
 rail or water as far as used as a post route or in carrying such express 
 matter." 
 
 That feature of the bill contemplates the Government shall put 
 itself in the position of the express companies and occupy the same 
 relationship m the business that the express eompainv now does to 
 the transportation line. Taking over those properties it would be 
 assumed that they would take over with the properties the employees 
 of the express companies who are all skilled in that line or work, and 
 they would be carried along until the system developed to that extent 
 that it could be simplified or added to, as the necessities of the case 
 required. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you not immediately create a friction 
 there? Are not the express employees more poorly paid than the 
 Government employees in similar branches of the service? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Would not the result be that you would be con- 
 fined in the operation of the business by the Government? The ex- 
 pense incident to the operation of the business would be much greater 
 than now existing under private interests, would it not ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. I think not, for the reason that you could elimi- 
 nate at once the voluminous and extensive system of bookkeeping. 
 
 The Chairman. You think the elmination of the vouchers and 
 waybills would more than offset the probable additional cost in wages 
 that would have to be made? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes; I do. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you ever had that matter looked into and 
 any statements drawn up, or data collected and deductions made, 
 from which you can draw definite conclusions? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Only in a general way. I have, however, had a 
 great deal to do in time gone by with the express companies, every 
 day, and I know something about what their system is ; it is a dupli- 
 cation of accounts that I do not think any private business concern 
 in this country would adopt. In the first place, you go to the express 
 office and deliver a package and they first issue a receipt for your 
 package ; then he makes out his waybill, he copies that into his copy- 
 ing book, then he turns the waybill over to the train agent, and then 
 he sits down and makes an abstract of his copying book; that abstract 
 has to go to the general auditor's office; when your waybill goes to 
 the other end of the route, the same processes are gone through again 
 and the waybill goes to the general auditor's office, and then on top 
 of that they have what they call a route agent and he is a high- 
 priced man, and his business is to go Avithin a certain zone, from one 
 express office to another, continuing to rotate right around the year, 
 and audit each office separately. 
 
 The Chairman. There are some 30,000 offices of the express com- 
 panies ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes. So the system of bookkeeping and ac- 
 counting is one of duplication. In fact, I think the express com- 
 panies deal with their employees as though they are all thieves. I do 
 not know that they mean to do it, but that is the plan upon which 
 they proceed. 
 
1244 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Do you think you could handle the same amount 
 of business and packages and in the same way without all this 
 bookkeeping ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. It seems to 'me the greater portion of it could be 
 eliminated. I do not see any necessity for all that duplication of 
 accounts. 
 
 Senator Briggs. You spoke of the waybill following along. What 
 you would do, you would transfer that simply to a voucher and a 
 receipt and forward it, along with the goods, just the same as they do 
 in the other departments, of the Government. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Well, I do not see why it would not be entirely 
 feasible for the Government to adopt a stamp that would indicate 
 where the package is going and that the regular operatives of the 
 Government could see the handling of it and see that it was carried to 
 its destination without all the duplication or transfer. 
 
 Senator Briggs. How would you trace a lost package? 
 
 Senator Gardner. That would be a system to be worked out, for 
 which I haven't any definite plan. I do not see why there should be 
 anything more complicated about that than there is in the trans- 
 mission of mail. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Well, I do, for the simple reason that your letters 
 are not followed up. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Part of your mail packages are followed up 
 because they are sent under special conditions. 
 
 Senator Briggs. If you have a special delivery, don't they do the 
 same thing? For instance, with the registered packages do they not 
 do practically the same thing? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes; hut it is all done in the regular post-office 
 service. There are not any additional employees in consequence of 
 that, as I understand it. 
 
 Senator Bristow. It takes more work to transfer registered pack- 
 ages than it does ordinary mail. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes; I understand that. But the same men 
 who have charge of the mail in its transmission do the work at the 
 same time. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That depends, of course, upon how much of it 
 there is. They, of course, have registered clerks where necessary. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Well, of course, in any event where it is in suffi- 
 cient volume where it necessitates extra men they could be supplied, 
 unquestionably. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If you keep a record so you can trace a package, 
 it requires more clerical work than not to keep a record. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Oh, yes. I do not mean to say this could all be 
 eliminated, but I do think a large portion of the accounting as 
 employed by the express companies could be reduced. 
 
 Senator Briggs. You would have the Government responsible for 
 lost packages? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Surely. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Then you have to keep a record ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. You do not have to keep duplicate accounts? 
 
 Senator Briggs. That duplication of accounts, if you carried out 
 your idea of putting a stamp on it, that would show where all your 
 packages are prepaid. With your express packages, some are collect 
 and some prepaid. There has to be a record to go with the package? 
 
PAECEL POST. 1245 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes ; but I do not see why, when a man turns 
 over his merchandise to another, it could not be receipted for and 
 go on? 
 
 Senator Briggs. How receipted ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. From one to another, the same as the express 
 matter. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Wouldn't they have to make out a receipt for 
 that? * r 
 
 Senator Gardner. They would have to have some form of receipt, 
 of course. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Yes ; that is just it. 
 
 Senator Gardner. But that feature of it would be done at the 
 starting point. 
 
 Senator Briggs. No ; I do not think so. For instance, suppose you 
 have a carload or half a carload of packages in Washington going 
 to Philadelphia, and there the carload would be split up ; you would 
 have to have a list of the packages ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Oh, yes. 
 
 Senator Briggs. That could not be done here ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. But it would necessarily have to be done at the 
 point of shipment ? 
 
 Senator Briggs. How could you give a receipt right here in Wash- 
 ington for goods that were delivered partially to an agent in Phila- 
 delphia going through to New York, and another agent going up 
 to Scranton, and another going to Reading? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Well, the transfer of receipts would take place 
 there, of course, in the separation. 
 
 Senator Briggs. You would have a blank made out here ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Well, that is what they do with their waybill. 
 
 Senator Gardner. But they make it four and five times. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Certainly; because they do not have everything 
 prepaid. 
 
 Senator Gardner. It does not make any difference whether pre- 
 paid or not ? 
 
 Senator Briggs. It makes a great deal of difference. If you ship 
 a package from here to Philadelphia you have to have something in 
 the hands of the agents to show those goods were prepaid. 
 
 Senator Gardner. I understand that, Senator, but there would 
 certainly be no necessity for sitting down in the office where the ship- 
 ment was started and making up an abstract of all the business that 
 had been forwarded and received from that office, in addition to the 
 regular invoiced bills, and sending them 
 
 Senator Briggs. That is where I do not agree with you. They 
 have to have a system of checking in the different offices. You send 
 in from here your abstract that shows all the money you have taken 
 in, shows the "packages you have sent ; the one to Philadelphia shows 
 the same thing, the one to Beading the same thing, and the one to 
 New York the same thing, and those all have to agree. That is their 
 system of checking. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes; that is right. But on top of all that, 
 mind you, they then copy from their copying books and make up a 
 statement in addition to "the waybills and they all go to the general 
 offices. 
 
1246 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Sure. That is where the accounts are audited. 
 Now, the difference in the way the Government handles those things, 
 or the departments with which I am familiar, after while all those 
 papers come into the hands of the auditors here and they are cheeked 
 up here. In fact I know one case ; 22 years after I left the Army I 
 was asked about a transportation order that was issued to me reading 
 from Selma, Ala., to Atlanta, and it showed that I had only used it 
 from Montgomery, Ala., to Atlanta. I was asked that by the Quarter- 
 master's Department 22 years afterwards. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Could not that have been done by the regular 
 invoiced bills? 
 
 Senator Briggs. No. 
 
 Senator Gardner. I do not see why not. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Well, it is simply a railroad ticket; that is what 
 was issued to me to go from Selma, Ala., to Atlanta, Ga., and I only 
 Used it from Montgomery, Ala. They asked me in about it in settling 
 up the accounts, and the quartermaster asked me to explain that. 
 So that I say they do their auditing here in Washington years and 
 years after the expenditure has been made. The express companies 
 check theirs up right away as soon as they can. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Well, why, if the invoiced bill accompanies the 
 shipment and is regularly checked up from one agent to the other, up 
 to and including the point of delivery, is it necessary to have that 
 duplicated and sent on independent of that? 
 
 Senator Briggs. I do not know exactly how the express companies 
 handle it, but I suppose that a man there has something to show — 
 has some voucher, receipt, or something to show — for every trans- 
 action. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes; that is all clone on the- regular waybill, 
 but the abstract, or the office statement, goes directly from the office 
 to the general auditor's office, independent of the waybill. 
 
 Senator Briggs. But how many people are interested in the trans- 
 action? Each one has to have his voucher? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Well, they all use the same voucher. They 
 simply use the waybill as the check from one man to another in 
 transit. 
 
 Senator Briggs. No; the shipping office sends their abstract with 
 the shipment and copy of the waybill. 
 
 Senator Gardner. I understand, but the waybill itself accompanies 
 the shipment. Now, when it is turned over from one messenger to 
 another, it is checked through the receiving messenger and that par- 
 ticular individual is held responsible for those goods until he can 
 show that he has checked them still further on to another messenger. 
 Now, why is it necessary to duplicate that account, especially when 
 the waybill itself goes to the general auditor's office ? 
 
 Senator Briggs. The waybill itself goes, yes. 
 
 Senator Gardner. And the waybill shows whether the goods were 
 delivered or not? 
 
 Senator BRiGGS. t Well, now, I do not think it does. It shows the' 
 delivery at an office, but I do not think it shows delivery to consignee. 
 
 Senator Gardner. I think that the agent requires the consignee to 
 sign in all cases of valuable shipments. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Suppose you take a waybill from New York to 
 Washington ; they have another waybill from Philadelphia to Wash- 
 
PARCEL POST. 1247 
 
 ington; another from Baltimore to Washington. When those way- 
 bills come in here they are not all sent out to the consignee, are they ? 
 They make out a waybill here in the office, or a receipt for you to sign, 
 do they not ? I frequently notice on receipts that I sign, I may have 
 a package from New York, the next package above may be from an- 
 other party and might be from Philadelphia. It shows there has 
 been a copy made in the office ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes; but if I should send to you to your home 
 in New Jersey a package by express, the waybill that accompanies 
 that is checked from one messenger to another until it comes to your 
 office and you sign upon its delivery? 
 
 Senator Briggs. I do not sign the waybill. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Well, you do the express business very differ- 
 ently from what we do it in our country, because I have had occa- 
 sion to sign a thousand times and I do not think I ever got any ex- 
 press matter that I did not sign for. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Yes; but I sign a receipt made out at the office. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Well, I signed the book. They give you a re- 
 ceipt for payment, in case of C. O. D. packages, but I have always 
 had to sign the express books in the office. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Yes; but that is not the waybill that had come 
 through from Maine. 
 
 Senator Gardner.. The waybill comes to that point and the fact 
 that you sign as having received it, it seems to me, is pretty good 
 evidence that the package has been delivered to you ? 
 
 Senator Briggs. Certainly it is, but it takes the two papers. 
 
 Senator Gardner. No ; it only takes the waybill and the book. 
 
 Senator Briggs. That makes the two papers. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Where does your abstract come in that comes 
 from the office to the general auditor's office ? 
 
 Senator Briggs. It comes in from the fact that the consignee has 
 to clear himself — not to clear himself, but to make return of the busi- 
 ness that is transacted. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Well, he does that through the waybill, in fact. 
 Then why is it necessary on top of all that to have the route agent go 
 around and audit the accounts of this office over and above all that? 
 
 Senator Briggs. Well, you know that as well as I. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is done in every business — the annual in- 
 spection of officers. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Duplicating? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Every money order post office is inspected 
 periodically. 
 
 Senator Gardner. I understand that, but there is no duplication of 
 the transactions sent from the post offices or money order offices ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. The agent goes around and audits the accounts. 
 
 Senator Gardner. There is one accounting right in there that you 
 have left out already that the express companies use. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you the number of employees that the ex- 
 press companies to-day have? 
 
 Senator Gardner. I haven't the number with me to-night. 
 
 The Chairman. The object of your bill is that if effected into law 
 it will give a much better service at a much cheaper cost to the people 
 of this country than they now receive and you get coordination, 
 which does not exist to-day, between the express companies operating 
 
1248 PARCEL POST. 
 
 as private enterprises and the Government operating on rural routes 
 under the postal operations? 
 
 Senator Gardner. I haven't any doubt of it whatever. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, those are the main features of the bill, are 
 they not? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Those are the main features. There is no ques- 
 tion of dividends involved in it. It is simply providing a complete 
 service at the cost of operation. 
 
 The Chairman. Then the goal to be reached is better service for 
 the people at a cheaper cost ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And if the objects can be accomplished in any 
 other direction whatsoever you have provided, if you would be con- 
 vinced that the other direction was just as good, you would be satis- 
 fied? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Surely I would. 
 
 Senator Briggs. You say " at cost of operation." Do you mean 
 to include in that cost condemning and taking over the express com- 
 panies ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman You would capitalize that and make it a charge 
 on the operation? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes, sir; I would. If I know anything about 
 the history of the express business, they did not invest any capital 
 in the business when it was started. My history tells me the express 
 business was started- by Alvin Adams from Watertown into Boston, 
 and his capital was a pair of shoes and a carpetbag, and his business 
 developed so he could not handle it, he had to have a horse and 
 his business has developed until they have been obliged to put about 
 $160,000,000 of excess profit that are not used in express business at 
 all into other investments. 
 
 The Chairman. You would not want to touch that ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. No; I would not want to touch that at all. I t 
 want to get a system that will stop the people being exploited to 
 furnish those excess profits for investment. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why should we take over the express companies' 
 business any more than the railroad companies' business? 
 
 Senator Gardner. The railroad companies are really transporta- 
 tion lines. You can not have a railroad until you invest some money 
 in it. You have to construct your line, but the express companies 
 have no transportation line, simply using existing lines. The ex- 
 press companies haven't any more transportation lines than the Gov- 
 ernment has in the transportation of the mails. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But it is a freight business on a small scale, is 
 it not ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes ; it is what you might term a retail freight 
 business. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And in what principle would you contribute any 
 difference in having the express business and the freight business? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Well, it would be the same thing so far as it ap- 
 plied to the retail transportation business. It would not make any 
 difference in the character of the business, but only in the character 
 of the ownership. 
 
PARCEL. POST. 1249 
 
 • Senator Bristow. There is a great deal of express business that 
 moves in carload lot.s, is there not ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Oh, yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Just where do you get the dividing line between 
 express and freight? ,• 
 
 Senator Gardner. As I understand, the railroads do not pretend 
 to do anything but a wholesale freight business, and as I further 
 understand it, their minimum weights are recorded at 100 pounds. 
 
 Senator Briggs. That is not the minimum weight, but the mini r 
 mum charge. ,>,.,'. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes ; on a 100-pound weight. , ! 
 
 Senator Bristow. The express business may be a thousand pounds 
 or ten thousand pounds, while the railroad company will take the 
 100-pound package or less than 100-pound package and actually 
 charge for 100 pounds. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes; and the express business,, on the other 
 hand, is regarded to be a business for which the people are willing 
 to pay an increased rate for the quicker transportation. 
 
 Senator Bristow. But just where and in what way would you 
 arrive at a dividing line between express business and freight busi- 
 ness ? You could not do it on the size of the package unless you 
 change the system that exists to-day. 
 
 Senator Bristow. My idea would be, if the Government took over 
 the express companies, you would have the express business the 
 companies are doing? 
 
 The Chairman. Wouldn't you also enlarge that? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Enlarge it? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; by the unification of the two, the postal and 
 the express business. Your idea would be to develop that activity 
 as rapidly as possible so as to give the people every possible advantage 
 in its utilization, would it not? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes, sir; that is it exactly. 
 
 The Chairman. So you would go on and gradually get into car- 
 rying larger and larger packages and branch out until you absorbed 
 a large portion of the transportation business of the country ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Then you would drift into governmental owner- 
 ship? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Well, that is a long way off. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, would it be ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Well, possibly it might, but it would not be in 
 my day, in my judgment. 
 
 Senator Briggs. The express companies are carrying carload lots 
 now? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Take the railroads; they carry a horse. The 
 express companies will carry a horse, but they fix an arbitrary weight 
 on your horse and then they charge you a double express rate for car- 
 rying that horse that is twice the rate for what they would carry the 
 same amount of dead weight; and if anybody is willing to pay an 
 increased amount for the hurried transit, that would be their privi- 
 lege. They would not be obliged to do it, but for a matter of con- 
 venience or matter of dispatch that would be optional with the 
 shipper. 
 
1250 PABCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Do you anticipate you would have a good deal 
 of trouble in making this division between freight and express when 
 all the profits are taken out and the Government hauling it as cheaply 
 as possible for the people, that the natural inevitable thing would be 
 to encroach on the freight business until you finally absorbed it ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Well, T <lc not apprehend that that would come 
 on the great bulk of merchandise that there was any particular hurry 
 about its reaching its point of destination, anything like carloads of 
 grain or anything of that sort. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You can send a carload of grain by express now 
 if you are willing to pay the additional cost ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes. 
 
 Senator Bristow. And that additional cost is what you seek to 
 eliminate very largely by this bill of yours to put it in 'the possession 
 of the Government? 
 
 Senator Gardner. As I look upon it, the Government and the peo- 
 ple are one and the same thing in the matter of transportation of 
 this sort and this would simply involve the people through the Gov- 
 ernment transacting their business at a minimum cost. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I am not saying that ultimately this very thing 
 that I suggest might occur or will not happen ; I do not know whether 
 it would be for the best or not — I am not ready yet to say that I am 
 in favor of it. because I am not; but it seems to me that this would 
 be a verj' long step in the direction of the Government taking per- 
 sonal control of the transportation business of the country. 
 
 Senator Gardner. I am free to say that I agree with you this 
 time — I am not in favor of Government ownership of transportation 
 lines. 
 
 The ChaHsman. You are in favor of regulation and only in favor 
 of Governmental ownership as a last resort if regulation would fill 
 the bill? 
 
 Senator Gardner. As a last resort. That is my position. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I think we all agree on that, most of us. 
 
 Senator Gardner. I think, Senator, you would agree with me that 
 if the railroads should so decide that they could enter upon the trans- 
 portation of express matter and do it just as well as the express com- 
 panies can do it, that it would be just as workable for them to do 
 the business if they had a mind to engage in it, as it was for an out- 
 side company to do it over their lines. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I think they ought to be required to do it. The 
 express company is a device to get more money out of the transporta- 
 tion of this business. 
 
 Senator Briogs. I do not agree with you there, Senator Bristow, 
 on that; that is, I do not agree that this is a history of the thing. 
 I am from New England, and I remember when all the New England 
 railroads were filled with just such lines as Senator Gardner says. 
 Nearly every town in New England had a man who used to go into 
 Boston every morning and come out every night and bring packages 
 with him and deliver them. As Senator Gardner said, after awhile, 
 when a man first started he would go himself and bring the packages 
 out in a big carpetbag; go around and take the orders and bring 
 them home. For instance, the people who would go to the little 
 shops in the town, the millinery stores, etc., would want some ribbon. 
 This man would go there, buy the goods, or go to the store and they 
 
PARCEL POST. 1251 
 
 would be delivered to him. Then around Court Square, in Boston, 
 they had 50 or 60, perhaps 100, express wagons. One of those wagons 
 would take all the packages of all the expressmen on a certain train 
 going up somewhere in New England, so that I think vou are wrong 
 in your judgment. The word I take exception to is " device." 
 
 Senator B'ristow. I do not think it was originally that, but I think 
 •it is growing into that. 
 
 Senator Beiggs. It has fallen into that, possibly, but I think it is 
 a natural growth. 
 
 Senator Bristow. I do not disagree with you as to that, but it has 
 so developed that at present it results in the business being taxed 
 more because of additional facilities that are offered, and additional 
 facilities are very limited, because in a great many of the cities the 
 railroad companies deliver their freight and they could deliver the 
 small package just as well. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Yes; I think they could. It is t> wonder to me 
 the railroads have not gone into it. They would, probably, if the 
 express companies had not owned the railroads. 
 
 The Chairman. Senator, have you come to any conclusion in your 
 own mind as to the amount of money that would be required to pay 
 the express companies to absorb them under condemnation pro- 
 ceedings ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Well, the only knowledge I have of that is their 
 own inventories, which they have placed between $39,000,000 and 
 $40,000,000. 
 
 The Chairman. So you think $40,000,000 is based on that data ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think it would be wise or necessary for 
 the Government to make an expenditure of that size, provided it 
 had power to operate and force the express companies to make such 
 rates as would be fair to the public, and the present fourth-class mail 
 privilege was enlarged so that a system was adopted in the way 
 of zones and charges that would practically give the Government the 
 haul of all packages up to the weight limit? Would not the Gov- 
 ernment save forty millions of an investment by the adoption of 
 that plan, providing that plan is feasible and practicable and is put 
 into effect. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Well, by their official statements their not profits 
 were between fourteen and fifteen million dollars last year, and if 
 that is the case it would not take but a short time for it to pav for 
 itself. 
 
 Senator Briggs. If you gave the public that $14,000,000 I do not 
 see where you would pay for it. 
 
 Senator Gardner. I said providing you keep the rates as they are, 
 it would only take about three years to pay for that, according to 
 their showing. 
 
 The Chairman. But the purpose would not be beneficial if the 
 rates were not lowered. 
 
 Senator Gardner. No; but I do hot think the Government would 
 get hurt very badly by that if they could take over the business and 
 pay for it in three years, and then be in position to reduce the rates 
 to the amount of taking out that $14,000,000 profit a year. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If the Post Office Department had a contract for 
 transporting its packages with the railroads that is as favorable as 
 
1252 PARCEL POST. 
 
 the express companies have, there would not be the slightest occa- 
 sion for taking over the express companies, would there ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. I understand, Senator, the difficulty in reducing 
 the express rate is because of their large capitalization. 
 
 Senator Bristow. That is not what I had in mind. Suppose that 
 ihe Government had as favorable a rate for transporting its packages 
 as the express companies have. Suppose it did not pay the railroad • 
 companies any more than the express companies pay, and then it 
 based its rates upon the cost of transportation and did not attempt 
 ta make any profit. There would not be any occasion whatever to 
 bother about taking possession of the express companies, would there? 
 
 Senator Gardner. It would put the Government in the position of 
 confiscating private property. 
 
 Senator Bristow. In what way ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. If the express companies could compete with 
 those rates 
 
 Senator Briggs. But you came in late, Senator. Senator Gardner 
 spoke of one thing before you came in, and that was the maximum 
 rate. He does not believe in an 11-pound weight, but he believes in 
 a higher rate, say 30 pounds. 
 
 Senator Bristow. You say we would be confiscating private prop- 
 erty. Why should not the Government have just as favorable a rate 
 from the railroad companies for transporting its business as the 
 express companies have? 
 
 Senator Gardner. I do not know of any reason. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If a railroad company gives the Government as 
 favorable a rate as the express company, and I see no reason why it 
 should not — the Government is now in the transportation of packages 
 in a limited way — and if it sees fit to enlarge that service, what com- 
 plaint can the express companies have? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Well, the only complaint that they could have, 
 as I would look upon it, is that it would necessarily put them out of 
 business. 
 
 The Chairman. You think- there is always complaint on reduced 
 profit? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes; I do. 
 
 Senator Bristow. They could not complain because the Govern- 
 ment demanded of the railroads as favorable terms as they had ? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes; but the Government would not be doing 
 the business as a dividend earner and the express companies would. 
 They are not in the business for their health, I do not imagine. But 
 what I want to say to you gentlemen is, there are several gentlemen 
 present who are here from a distance and these technical points we 
 can argue any time, and I would suggest, therefore, that we give them 
 an opportunity to be heard. 
 
 The Chairman. We will be very glad to concur in whatever sug- 
 gestion you have to make. 
 
 Senator Gardner. I would like, just at this point, before this par- 
 ticular feature of this discussion is dropped, to call upon Mr. Lewis 
 for some points upon this same subject. 
 
 Senator Bristoav. Mr. Lewis is here also. Had we not better hear 
 these gentlemen from out of town? 
 
 Senator Gardner. Then I will suggest that we call upon Mr. Mc- 
 Sparran. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1253 
 
 STATEMENT OF J. A. McSPARRAN. 
 
 The Chairman. Kindly state your name, occupation, and resi- 
 dence. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. John A. McSparran; secretary of the legislative 
 committee of the Pennsylvania State Grange. 
 
 The Chairman. You are familiar with what is known as the 
 Gardner bill ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you be kind enough to give the committee 
 your personal views, or in your representative capacity as repre- 
 senting the grange, and if there is any difference between your views. 
 so designate them in your statement, that the committee may have the 
 knowledge as to wherein you express your own views or where you 
 express the views of the grange with reference to this particular bill. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. The grange is in favor of what is known as pos- 
 tal express because of the fact that the express business is not giving 
 to the people of this country the element of convenience that thev 
 have a right to expect, to say nothing of the prices that they have 
 been charged for the service they have rendered. There is no other 
 person or persons than the Government, we feel, who can render that 
 service. 
 
 The Chairman. How would the Government increase the con- 
 venience as of that particular service ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Because of the fact that the Government has the 
 opportunity to make contracts with all kinds of carriers. 
 
 The Chairman. Does not the express company have that oppor- 
 tunity ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, I do not know but what they have the 
 opportunity, but they never avail themselves of it. No; they have 
 not the opportunity. They could not add a rural carrier. 
 
 The Chairman. You mean they have the opportunity of better 
 coordination between the existing machinery? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes; with all kinds of carriers. There is no 
 carrier of any kind or character the Government could not use, and 
 as a consequence they could have a perfect system of coordination 
 a? no private corporation could have ; and that is the only thing that 
 the people have a right to be satisfied with. The question of the 
 expense, of course, is another great feature in connection with the 
 carrying of parcels, and we feel that the Government can do that 
 work at very much less outlay to the people than any other corpora- 
 tion because of the fact that they do not have to make a profit and 
 because of the fact of that perfect coordination of the several carry- 
 ing agencies. The Government would not have to have duplication 
 such as the express companies have. 
 
 The Chairman. Waybills and vouchers, for instance? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Not only that, but you take any large city and 
 you will find several large express companies there with a whole set 
 of machinery for doing business. 
 
 The Chairman. But generally with an understanding between 
 themselves, I take it? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, somewhat, but in the large cities we see 
 wagons of the companies delivering and receiving packages, and there 
 feems to be a full equipment doing business. 
 
1254 PABCEL POST. 
 
 The Chairman. And from your standpoint that is a waste which 
 would be eliminated by governmental operation? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. It certainly is. Of course we as farmers are 
 especially interested in it, because we have practically nothing under 
 the express system. Whatever we get we have to do ourselves and 
 pay for it besides. They do not deliver, they do not come for any- 
 thing, but we have to take our express to them and pay about six 
 times what we ought to pay after we do all the work ourselves, and 
 that has always been the case in the country districts, for they have 
 made no effort to eover the whole country. 
 
 The Chairman. You heard Senator Gardner give his statement, 
 and he said he thought 30 pounds on the parcel post would be a good 
 weight limit. Do you concur in that? 
 
 Mr McSparran. Well, I can't see any reason why there should be 
 any limit set, except the limit that would naturally be met by the 
 rates. That is the separation of the two now; it is a right separa- 
 tion, and I can not see why there should be any other separation in 
 any governmental system. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Would you not have to have a weight limit on the 
 rural deliveries? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, not in the law. Of course, the post office 
 would certainly have the right to make regulations; you could not 
 expect a man with a horse and wagon to haul a ton of stuff away in 
 the morning, and there would have to be regulations, but that would 
 not be in the body of the law ; that would be regulations that would 
 naturally come along with the growth of the business. 
 
 Senator Briggs. What I am talking about is the practical feature. 
 Would not an unlimited weight limit swamp your rural delivery 
 lines? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Xo ; because the rates would make the package 
 even with the most conservative postal-express rates. When you get 
 up to big packages, from 100 pounds up, the rates over the freight 
 rate would be so much larger that nobody would ship a package of 
 that kind except under the most dire necessity. They will not do it 
 now with the express companies. You do not find a man shipping 
 a binder by express unless there is absolute necessity for it, and yet 
 he can ship a binder by express, and once in a great while we hear 
 of it being done. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Possibly I do not make myself clear. If you had 
 no weight limit, suppose a man did ship a binder, and it came to the 
 end of the railroad, and there was a post office there and a rural- 
 delivery route leading out. How would you handle that? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. The Government would simply have to get a 
 team, just the same as the express companies. If* somebody ships 
 something over the express company's lines to-day that the ordinary 
 express wagon can not haul they have to get a wagon to haul it, and 
 all those affairs would be regulated through Government regulation, 
 and the rates would be preventive, except in the case of dire neces- 
 sity, and in that event the Government ought to supply that con- 
 venience. The rates would make it so it would be a negligible quan- 
 tity in the general system. For instance, you would not put a rate 
 on a thousand-pound package. You would make that rate so high a 
 man would never ship by it. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Then what is the advantage of it ? 
 
PARCEL POST. 1255 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, sometimes you will use a thing that is very 
 extreme, because of the necessity of it. 
 
 Senator Beiggs. In other words, you would put a rate so that it 
 would be cheaper for a man to go to town and get it himself ? . 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes; possibly it would, but the point is this: 
 There is the question of convenience which comes in there, and if a 
 man is willing to pay for it, I say the Government ought to furnish 
 it, but yet at a rate that the Government can afford to do so. I do 
 not believe in making the Government pay the expense of that, but 
 yet it ought to give the man that convenience if he is willing to pay 
 for it. 
 
 The Chairman. You think in legislation you should take into con- 
 sideration the extremes, or averages? 
 Mr. McSparran. I should think you would take the averages. 
 The Chairman. With the idea always in view of the greatest good 
 to the greatest number ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. The extremes would be handled by the regula- 
 tion of the department under which you place the bill ? 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose a plan could be evolved by which you 
 would get much better service and better rates in the express service, 
 and regulation by the Interstate Commerce Commission as to rates 
 on weights over the weight limit established in parcel post, would 
 you not accomplish the same result and save the Government $40,- 
 000,000 investment as capital charged by the condemnation proceed- 
 ings, and if so, would not that be desirable ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, if it were possible to do that I think it 
 would, but I do not think there has been anything proposed that 
 would do that. 
 The Chairman. Suppose a plan could be evolved ? 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes, if something else could be evolved, that 
 would be just as good, I think. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Why would it not be practicable to approach 
 this thing by stages and let experience develop and demonstrate 
 what is the best method ? If we had a parcel post now that was or- 
 ganized on a zone system so that the charges would be equitable for 
 the service rendered", and then later on when that adjusted itself and 
 we saw its benefits and weaknesses, to readjust it, until finally we 
 approach this system, which you feel will be the most desirable, do 
 you not think it would be safer and better for us to approach that in 
 that way ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, I do, if you know of anything that will do 
 that. I do not know of anything that will do that but the elimina- 
 tion of the express companies. 
 The Chairman. It is the relief you want. You do not care about 
 
 the method ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. I do not care about the method, but I do not 
 believe there is any use in talking about ifs unless there is some if 
 to be proposed. . . 
 
 Senator Bristow. I have been very much impressed with the idea 
 that the charge is quite a desirable way of limiting the size of the 
 
 , 58773— vol 5—12 7 
 
1256 PARCEL POST. 
 
 packages, more than the arbitrary limit. I think it would be quite 
 practicable. 
 
 The Chairman. In the charge? 
 
 Senator Beistow. Yes. 
 
 The 'Chairman. I do not think you would be giving the relief. 
 You would be fixing the limit, even if it did not come up to Mr. 
 Gardner's idea of 30 pounds, and if it was only 11 pounds, providing 
 you worked out a plan, showing the cost of the most economical op- 
 eration up to that weight limit and gave the public the benefit of 
 those charges up to that weight, I think they would rather have that 
 than a high limit in weight than a high charge and regulate your 
 business by your charge. In other words, what I think you should 
 do, would be to establish a system that would encourage and de- 
 velop business, rather than do business at a charge that will de- 
 crease and discourage it. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, you at once raise enemies because here is a 
 man who has a 12-pound package and you set the limit at 11 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you not think he will be pleased, if he can not 
 get 12 to get 11, where he can now only get 4? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, when he could get 100, why should he be 
 satisfied with 11? 
 
 The Chairman. I do not see how he is going to get the 100. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, because the rest of the civilized world 
 has it. 
 
 The Chairman. Oh, no. Xot the rest of the civilized world. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, a good bit of it. 
 
 The Chairman. I would rather go slow on weights and increase 
 rapidly than I would to go slow on rates and with speed on weights, 
 wouldn't you? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No ; I do not think I would, because that is the 
 separation of the business to-day. Why go out and try to do some- 
 thing now when to-day the business is handled on rate separation? 
 The railroads are not after this business; they do not want to do it 
 themselves and they would not have delegated it to the express com- 
 panies in the beginning ; they do not want it. 
 
 The Chairman. They are interested in it, are they not ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Some of them are; some of the railroad people- 
 are. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think they would voluntarily surrender it? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. I think they would surrender it simply because 
 they can not do it well ; 1,100 railroads can not handle it as easily as 
 13 express companies. 
 
 The Chairman. It is a matter of facility, but they participate in 
 the profits? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes; but they are willing to delegate it and they 
 are delegating it to-day. 
 
 The Chairman. But they are participating in the profits and they 
 would not if the Government absorbed it. The railroads would not 
 have the participatory benefits that they receive to-day, in that event? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Do they have anything to do with it to-day, out- 
 side of the contracts they have with the express companies? 
 
 The Chairman. They are correlated and their ownership is inter- 
 woven. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Oh, yes. 
 
PAECEL POST. 1257 
 
 Senator Beiggs. I think the express companies own stock in the 
 railroads rather than the railroads owning stock in the express com- 
 panies. I think it is usually the other way. 
 
 The Chairman. It is immaterial which way you put it ; the results 
 are the same. 
 
 Senator Beiggs. The American Express Co. owns the Boston & 
 Maine and the Adams Express Co. owns the New Haven & Hartford. 
 The express companies control the railroads in New England. 
 
 The Chairman. Wasn't it the ownership in the railroads, prima- 
 rily, that got the ownership in the express company, and is not the 
 express company a parasite on the railroads rather than the rail- 
 roads being a parasite on the express company? The railroad pre- 
 ceded the express company and the express company is an evolution? 
 
 Senator Briggs. Yes; but not all railroads. 
 
 The Chairman. But of the ownership and control of the railroad, 
 most assuredly. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. The express company is not a parasite on the 
 railroad, but it is a parasite on the people. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, put it that way. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. I do not think they are sucking the railroad very 
 hard. 
 
 Senator Briggs. I think the American Express Co. did the Boston 
 & Maine. 
 
 Senator Gardner. They invested a great deal of money in the con- 
 struction of the road. 
 
 The Chairman. There is doubtless a consideration there. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes; I think so; and also, doubtless, a consid- 
 eration in the parties participating in the construction. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Did you say the railroads need not have given the 
 contracts to the express companies? 
 
 The Chairman. Why, certainly not. 
 
 Senator Beiggs. I think it is just the other way, that the express 
 companies dominated the railroads. I do not say they do now, but 
 I think they did a few years ago. 
 
 The Chairman. But it was through the initial ownership of the 
 railroads, and the railroads controlled the contracts given by them 
 to the express companies and the benefits went to the ownership of 
 the individuals controlling the railroads in their participation. 
 
 Senator Briggs. No ; I do not think the railroads had anything to 
 do with the express companies. 
 
 The Chairman. The railroads per se did not. but the individuals 
 controlling the railroads did. 
 
 Senator Beiggs. My understanding of the history .of the develop- 
 ment of the express 'companies is that it grew up the other way; 
 then the express companies began to make these large investments 
 in railroad construction, and through that they got stock ownership 
 
 in the railroads? . ,.•,•,.,, •, , 
 
 The Chairman. The express company is a child of the railroad 
 
 and not the railroad the child of the express company. The railroad 
 
 was constructed before the express company. 
 
 Senator Briggs. I do not think either one is a child of the other 
 
 at all. I think they started and grew up in different ways, and the 
 
 express companies grew fast enough by themselves. 
 
1258 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Bristow. The express was in existence prior to the rail- 
 roads, as an express business? 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the pony express; yes. 
 
 Senator Briggs. That is practically the way the express business 
 of this country started, with these men — pony postmen, you might 
 call them. They rode a pony. 
 
 Senator Bristoav. They became a big institution when there were 
 a number of railroads very small. 
 
 The Chairman. They were absorbed by the railroads themselves ? 
 
 Senator Bristow. Some of them were. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Whatever may be the history of it, is it not the 
 fact that there are individuals in the railroads and in the express 
 companies that are getting a whole lot of railroad profits that should 
 have gone to the railroad stockholders? That is my understanding 
 of it, although I do not pretend to be an expert; but I think it is 
 just another scheme of skinning the little fellow. 
 
 The Chairman. I assume that the Interstate Commerce Commis- 
 sion, who have had express companies under consideration for some 
 period of months, will probably make known to the public the re- 
 sult of their findings in the course of two or three months. We have v 
 been trying to study out a parcel post rather than the express 
 companies. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, you seem to be debating the history, and I 
 just offered that as an opinion; I do not know. 
 
 The Chairman. I think there are a good many who agree with 
 you in your opinion. Are there any other points vou wish to eluci- 
 date? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. There was just one other point. I speak of the 
 duplication of the companies. There is also a tremendous duplica- 
 tion of the waybills and things of that kind. There is no reason 
 why they should not be simplified tremendously. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Why did you say that? Have you ever had any 
 practical experience in the managing and auditing of an express 
 business ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No. I did not intend to criticize their methods 
 of bookkeeping at all, but I say the method that would be used in 
 the governmental system of parcel post would be so much simpler. 
 They may have to do that. 
 
 Senator Briggs. That is the point made by you and Senator Gard- 
 ner, which you do not convince me on — that you could do away 
 with so much of this duplication. 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Simply because of the fact that you, for instance, 
 would bring a package to the station and you would have some sys- 
 tem, either by carbon copies or some stamping system which would 
 be a mechanical contrivance by which you could duplicate at one act 
 everything that would be necessary to trace that thing from start to 
 finish. You could have one copy to remain at the starting point, you 
 could put a penny on. another copy and send it to the person to whom 
 it was to go, and a third one, for instance, would go with the agent 
 along the way. There would be different copies, but it all could be 
 done by a stamping process that would be very simple and very 
 quick and very effective. It is done to-day by the express companies 
 in the matter of trunks. They do not pretend to give you a receipt 
 and a waybill and all that business with a trunk, and yet there is a 
 
PARCEL POST. 1259 
 
 receipt for it. It is carried by check, and if it was to be prepaid it 
 would be one color, if it was to be postpaid it would be another, and 
 it would not be any more trouble to send it one way than the other. 
 
 The Chairman. That is bookkeeping? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Certainly. 
 
 The Chairman. If the express companies find it cheaper with the 
 trunk system that you have explained, why do they not adopt that 
 system on their other business ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Because I think under the law they can not pool 
 their business. They have, however, an exchange at the end of each 
 line. They can not do that, but the Government could. 
 
 The Chairman. How do they do it with the trunks? 
 
 Mr, McSparran. It is the railroad that handles the trunks. 
 
 The Chairman. You were not referring to the express companies ? 
 You were referring to the baggage department of the railroad ? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. No; I was referring to the fact that these com- 
 plicated systems are not used on all packages that are responsible 
 packages. That was the point that I was trying to make. 
 
 Congressman Lewis. If I may be allowed a suggestion. I think I 
 will simplify the discussion of this subject. When you analyze the 
 number of acts of transportation, attention given a shipment, large 
 or small, by the railroad, you will find there are 22; 15 of those are 
 actually replaced to-day by the postage stamp in the postal offices in 
 handling the small shipments, and in circumstances of whether it 
 should be prepaid or postpaid could, as suggested, be readily covered 
 by having a stamp of one color for prepaid matter and a stamp of 
 another for an obligation to attach at the delivering end. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Would you favor a system of shipping goods with- 
 out charges prepaid? 
 
 Congressman Lewis. Oh, yes. I may say I would like to be heard 
 by y° u gentlemen later, but what you are dealing with is the prob' 
 lem of the small shipments, and that is a problem that connects in 
 the most vital way with the high cost of living. I think you will be 
 made to see that the whole of the parcel-post problem and the ex- 
 press problem and the high cost of living problem, at least in a very 
 great measure, are one problem — the economic and direct transporta- 
 tion of small shipments. 
 
 The Chairman. Had you finished, Mr. McSparran? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. There is just one more point and that is, we feel 
 that no system can ever be put into operation that will be successful 
 by the Government as long as the express companies are in the field, 
 because of the fact that history is that they take the profitable hauls 
 and leave the Government with the unprofitable ones. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Don't you think that is largely because we have 
 never had any zone system with our packages. If the Government 
 adopts a zone system, does not that, in a great measure, cure that? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Well, it cures it that far, but I can not see how 
 it will blot it out. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose the Government adopted a zone system 
 based on scientific deductions so far as it is possible to do so, fixing 
 an overhead charge for the cost of pick-up and delivery, and then a 
 transportation charge in addition to that for the distance traveled, 
 and the rates were put so low that the express companies would not 
 be able to compete with the Government up to the weight limit that 
 might be adopted, and then express companies on the excess business, 
 
1260 PARCEL POST. 
 
 over and above that weight was regulated by the Interstate Com- 
 merce Commission. Would not that be a solution of the problem 
 and the accomplishment of what you wish to bring about ? 
 
 Mr. McSpaeran. Well, I can not see how you will do that when 
 the express company has a rate with the railroads that is several times 
 cheaper than the rate the Government has with the railroads. 
 
 Senator Beiggs. Have they? 
 
 Mr. McSparran. Yes ; I think they have. 
 
 The Chairman. If you have nothing further to offer us, Mr. 
 McSparran, the committee will now hear from Mr. Atkinson. 
 
 STATEMENT OF T. C. ATKINSON. 
 
 The Chairman. Will you kindly state your name, residence, occu- 
 pation, and in what capacity, if any, officially, you appear before the 
 committee ? 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. First, I am a practical farmer; at the present 
 time I am a member of the State Board of Agriculture of West Vir- 
 ginia ; editor of the West Virginia Farmer ; professor of animal hus- 
 bandry in our State University, master of the West Virginia State 
 Grange and a member of the National Grange legislative committee^ 
 and a few other collateral things. 
 
 The Chairman. You are familiar with what is known in the Sen 1 
 ate as the Gardner bill ? 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. Would you kindly give to the committee your 
 views, personally, or in your representative capacity ? 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. Mr. Chairman, I have been before this committee 
 or some of its members two or three times this winter, until I have 
 gotten pretty well acquainted with the committee, and it perhaps has 
 become more or less acquainted with me. I propose to present what 
 I have to say from the farmers' standpoint wholly, because the 
 farmer and his interest is involved in this whole matter of parcel 
 post or postal express, as the matter may be termed. I think in 
 order that I might get before the committee the real attitude of the 
 best thinking of the farmers of this country, I propose to present 
 the position taken by the National Grange, a farmers' organization 
 that some of you have become acquainted with, and when I say that 
 it is composed of the soundest thinking farmers I do not mean to say 
 there are not as many good farmers outside of the organization as are 
 in it, but they have not been thinking about this or these and other 
 economical questions to the same extent that the people who are in 
 the grange have been thinking about it. It has come to me from 
 every viewpoint of the farmer people through a period of at least 30 
 years, and the grange has gone on record in favor of practically every 
 advanced suggestion involving a more satisfactory and more general 
 communication between the country people and the consumers of the 
 cities and the towns, with a view to making the country conditions 
 more desirable, and primarily with the purpose of preventing the 
 drift of the country people to the town. I have taken the trouble to 
 have copied from the record — I do not like to take the time of the 
 committee to read these two pages — of the report of the committee' 
 that gave this matter careful consideration at the last session of the 
 National Grange. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1261 
 
 The Chairman. Do you want it inserted in the record? 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. I want it in the record. 
 
 The Chairman. We will insert it at this point, 
 
 REPORT OF COMMITTEE ON POSTAL IMPROVEMENT. 
 
 To present an interesting report upon the subject of postal im- 
 provement is not an easy task, because the subject has been so long in 
 the public mind, and has been so thoroughly discussed that about all 
 that can be said upon it has already been said ; while this is particu- 
 larly true in any gathering of the Grange, whose discussion of postal 
 savings banks and of parcel post has contributed in very large degree 
 to the present advanced stage of both these phases of genuine postal 
 improvement. 
 
 The remarkable patronage of the postal savings banks opened dur- 
 ing the past year is a striking commentary upon the popularity of 
 the plan of the Government establishing a system of savings for the 
 people, and completely answers the oft-repeated assertions of the past 
 10 years, that there is no call for such an institution as postal sav- 
 ings banks. Without exception, in every post office where a savings, 
 department has been opened the receipts have immediately exceeded 
 expectations, and the deposits already in the comparatively small 
 start have amounted to many millions of dollars. What results the 
 first five years of postal savings banks will reveal can scarcely be 
 overestimated, while the incentive that will thus be provided for the 
 small savings of the. people can hardly be measured. Thus again is 
 the wisdom of Grange foresight amply demonstrated. 
 
 The subject of parcel post to which the work of this committee is 
 naturally devoted chiefly is so well understood, and has been so often 
 reviewed in these annual sessions of the National Grange as to need 
 hardly more than a mention here; rather are we chiefly concerned 
 with the ways and means of remedy than with the details of our 
 present deficient system ; the latter is already too well known to need, 
 extensive comment. The parcel-post project has been long and con- 
 sistently waged by the Grange, and it is probably true that in the 
 last 10 years there have been more discussions and more resolutions 
 concerning parcel post in the councils of National, State, Pomona, 
 and subordinate Granges than upon any other one subject. That the 
 United States was long ago far outstripped in the provisions for 
 package carrying by practically every other nation in the Interna^ 
 tional Postal Union is of well-known and humiliating knowledge; 
 that for years our Post Office Department continuously failed to at- 
 tempt any advance steps in this direction, though great advances 
 were being made in every other civilized country, was common knowl- 
 edge, while even the people themselves until very recent years have 
 shown little disposition to arouse themselves to make a fight for bet- 
 tering their condition. 
 
 Parcel post is distinctly a National Grange issue, and not at all 
 strangely, because of the tremendous benefit that its adoption would 
 bring to the country people, both in the receiving and sending of 
 parcels. Our long and consistent agitation in thousands of Grange 
 meetings of varying size has borne fruit, and we apparently stand 
 
1262 PARCEL POST. 
 
 to-day very near the realization of our work and our hopes. In fact, 
 with proper handling it seems highly probable that from the coming 
 Congress may emanate some form of parcel-post legislation, of how 
 satisfactory a nature yet remaining to be seen. It is quite probable, 
 unless another reciprocity pact comes blowing over the Canadian bor- 
 der, or from some other country whose farmers have become envious 
 of our markets, that parcel post will be the big issue in Grange leg- 
 islative endeavor between now and the next session of this body. 
 
 There are at the present time about a score of bills providing for 
 varying forms of parcel post service now pending at Washington, 
 and it is not an easy task for this body to select one specific bill and 
 focus its attention upon that. There are clearly two possible courses 
 of action by this body which must herewith be considered: (1) To 
 take a firm stand at this session in favor of genuine progressive par- 
 cel-post legislation, and demand its speedy enactment by Congress, 
 without attempting to establish a positive Grange position on any one 
 specific bill out of the score in question; (2) to endeaVor to point 
 to one particular bill and demand specific action thereon as the 
 Grange position on the parcel-post question. 
 
 The first proposition is open at once "to commendation and criti- 
 cism. With so many bills pending, all aimed toward the same end, 
 it may be argued that the Grange policy should be sufficiently flex- 
 ible to admit of a readjustment to such condition as our legislative 
 committee may find as the situation shapes itself, and also to .admit 
 of the joining of forces with other organizations in a great forward 
 movement fcr parcel post as the congressional season advances. This 
 idea is open to a serious criticism, however. When the general sub- 
 ject of parcel post is put up to a Senator or Congressman in ques- 
 tion form, he is almost sure to reply with a smile, or by a form letter, 
 " Certainly, I am in favor of parcel post, and the matter will have 
 my most earnest consideration," leaving the questioner just about as 
 well informed as he was before. If a distinct bill is to be submitted, 
 then the statesman can be pinned down to the specific question, and 
 must give an answer that amounts to something. 
 
 The second proposition has the advantage already referred to of 
 permitting the specific and definite pledges of Members of Congress, 
 with the consequent increased likelihood of favorable action, but is 
 in turn open to the objection that if this body be definitely committed 
 to any one bill, or system of parcel post, then it might be rendered 
 difficult for our legislative committee to adjust to new conditions 
 that might arise in the matter or to arrange for effective cooperative 
 effort with other organizations similarly interested with our own in 
 the parcel-post fight. 
 
 As between these two propositions your committee is inclined to 
 feel that the resolution offered to this body by the master of the 
 Maryland State Grange presents the most effective position this 
 session can take on the parcel-post question, and we, therefore, recom- 
 mend the indorsement of that resolution, which was as follows : 
 
 "Resolved, That in the opinion of the National Grange in forty- 
 fifth annual session assembled, the system of postal express as pre- 
 pared by Congressman Lewis, of Maryland, offers a thorough solu- 
 tion of the parcel-post measure, and that we hereby indorse the 
 
PARCEL POST. 1263 
 
 same, and urge its passage. This indorsement is not intended that 
 we shall abandon the position formerly taken by the National Grange 
 on the parcel-post question." 
 
 If we take this attitude by vote at this- time, we are holding up 
 such a system as the Lewis bill contemplates as an ideal to be striven 
 for and ultimately reached, but by no means halting our efforts to 
 secure any advance step toward an effective parcels-post beginning, 
 which may be not only valuable in itself but a stepping stone to- 
 ward the final accomplishment of a widespread and adequate postal- 
 express system, after the order of the Lewis plan, which would ab- 
 sorb all the express companies and take their work entirely over 
 under Government direction and control. 
 
 We therefore here and now reaffirm the position heretofore and 
 continuously taken by the National Grange m favor of parcels-post 
 legislation, and insist that our legislative committee use every means 
 at their command, in the name and in behalf of the National Grange, 
 to secure such legislation. 
 
 We recommend that the executive comittee be authorized and di- 
 rected to appropriate from the treasury of the National Grange such 
 funds as they may deem necessary for the prosecution of this work 
 through the regular channels of the legislative committee of this 
 order. 
 
 We recommend that the master of every State grange which holds 
 its annual session between now and March 1 specifically bring be- 
 fore said body the subject of parcels post and urge positive and dis- 
 tinct action thereon, together with the appropriation of such financial 
 assistance as may be deemed possible by the respective State granges. 
 
 We recommend that our legislative committee use every means 
 in its power to accomplish, if possible, a more closely federated effort 
 than at present exists of all the organizations now singly or otherwise 
 engaged in a fight for parcels post, and even place the National 
 Grange in a position of leadership toward such a federation if pos- 
 sible. 
 
 We recommend that this matter shall be given early consideration 
 by our legislative committee, and especially urge that said commit- 
 tee shall, as soon as practicable, prepare and submit to the State 
 granges at least an outline of the most effective means to be set in 
 motion in the respective State granges to the end that the great par- 
 cels-post fight of the winter may be instantly and actively started in 
 every grange State. 
 
 We therefore recommend such early consideration of this matter 
 by our legislative committee as shall make possible a conference with 
 the parties in question, and that at such conference and in all future 
 like opportunities the position of the National Grange shall be em- 
 phatically that of participation in any combined forward movement 
 for parcels post that it is possible to make with any or all other or- 
 ganizations likewise interested in this vitally important subject. 
 
 We earnestly urge the preparation by the legislative committee 
 of concise and emphatic parcels-post literature to be sent throughout 
 our granges and to be used as far as possible in the public press, 
 and that our members be kept continually advised, through the col- 
 umns of each monthly issue of our National Grange publication, of 
 the progress of the fight ; that said members be advised therein of the 
 means, through letters, telegrams, resolutions, etc., by which local 
 
1264 PARCEL POST. 
 
 granges and individual members may lend a hand in the great grange 
 fight for genuine parcels post, to the end that the new year may bring 
 victory in the struggle so long and so valiantly fought by the Na- 
 tional Grange. 
 
 Chas. M. Gardner. 
 
 Geo. R. Schaefer. 
 
 Mrs. Fanny E. Malone. 
 
 Mrs. Ida M. Schaeeer. 
 
 J. D. Ream. 
 
 Mrs. Sakah J. Creasy. 
 Report adopted. 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. We recognize that the high cost of living in the 
 country is largely due to a lack of cooperation between the producers 
 and the consumers. Neither of these classes are to blame for this 
 condition directly, yet in a reflex manner, by an apathetic considera- 
 tion of legislation, the general public is blameable for existing 
 economic conditions. It should be the purpose of this great organi- 
 zation to adopt as legislative principles and to work for the construc- 
 tion of laws that will prevent the inflation of corporate holdings, 
 which we believe to be the most serious menace to our national pros- 
 perity and to work for fair and equitable tariff legislation which will 
 deny special privileges in trade to those, business institutions which 
 thrive only upon the opportunities given them through unjust laws. 
 
 The existence of business parasites is a hindrance to cooperation 
 and we would point out that the most dangerous economic parasite 
 with which the people of the country have to contend, and especially 
 I he farmer, is the express company. Our tribute to it, as well as to 
 ;hose other concerns which are probably important on their merits, 
 but dangerous in their inflated conditions, is a tax which should not 
 be imposed, and which serves to defeat the best interests of the people. 
 Therefore, we recommend, as one of the great reforms necessary for 
 the successful development of cooperation, that this body indorse 
 the plan of postal express now pending before Congress, being a bill 
 presented by David J. Lewis, Member of Congress from the sixth 
 district of Maryland, and known as the Lewis bill. 
 
 This thought opens up the subject of distribution. Poor methods 
 of distribution are a hindrance to successful cooperation. The postal 
 express plan, in our judgment, will assist in more efficient distribu- 
 tion, inasmuch as it will create an articulation heretofore denied 
 between all sections of the country, which will, in turn, serve to force 
 individuals and corporations dealing in the necessaries of life to 
 modernize their method's of handling the products of the farm. In 
 many of our great cities Ave find the methods of distribution anti- 
 quated and really obsolete. 
 
 It should be the desire of the farmer to deal directly with those 
 who consume what he raises, and to this end it is wise, in our judg- 
 ment, to establish relations with other organized classes. Organized 
 labor is prepared to meet us half way. We would urge that the rela- 
 tions between the organized farmer, who is a producer, and organ- 
 ized labor, also a producer, be encouraged. 
 
 As a result of this general discussion of the parcel-post question, 
 as I have just said, the grange for 30 years has" discussed as carefully 
 and as thoroughly as it knows how to discuss so complicated a ques- 
 
PARCEL POST. 12 65" 
 
 tion every single proposition that has been presented to Congress or 
 to the people for probably 30 years, and as a result of these numerous- 
 discussions and the summing up of the study of the question by the- 
 committee on postal improvement the National Grange, at its last 
 session at Columbus, Ohio, passed this resolution : 
 
 Resolved, That in the opinion of the National Grange, in forty-fifth annual 
 session assembled, the system of postal express as prepared by Congressman 
 Lewis, of Maryland, offers a thorough solution of the parcel-post measure, and 
 that we hereby indorse the same and urge its passage. This indorsement is not 
 intended that we shall abandon the position formerly taken by the National 
 Grange on the parcel-post question. 
 
 That is, we are progressive on this whole matter ; and if some one 
 can offer us a more tenable or more scientific or more logical or a 
 more reasonable means of cheapening communication between the 
 country people, the producers of the country, and the consumers of the 
 towns, or make living in the country more desirable than Mr. Lewis's 
 proposition, which is substantially the proposition under considera- 
 tion here now — that was the proposition that was before the National 
 Grange — we will be glad to have it. The farmers of the country 
 have grown to feel a great deal the delay in getting some relief from 
 the existing conditions, which are certainly untenable. 
 
 I do not believe that any sane Senator or Congressman believes that 
 the people of this country are getting a square deal under the pres- 
 ent postal system, so far as parcel post is concerned, and we get the 
 impression that the situation is a good deal like it was on one occa- 
 sion when my father sued a man for a $3 debt and a judgment was 
 rendered promptly and the litigants proceeded to schedule, as we 
 say in West Virginia. He did not have property enough to meet the 
 requirements of the law, but after he paid the justice 50 cents and de- 
 feated the possibility of collecting the debt, he turned to my father 
 and said, " Mr. Atkinson, that is a just debt and I intend to pay it if 
 the time ever comes when I have any money that I have no other 
 earthly use for," and the time has not come yet. We are beginning to 
 feel that this debt of long standing of justice to the country peoplfe 
 in regard to this matter, which is generally recognized as a just debt, 
 is greatly delayed and that the American Congress will pay some time 
 when it has no other use for its resources. 
 
 Senator Briggs. You approach us in that spirit, do you, that we 
 are trying to keep you out of what your just dues are, and have been, 
 for 30 years ? 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. Yes. I think it recognizes generally 
 
 Senator Briggs. Let me ask you right there. You spoke about 
 your efforts for the last 30 years and your discussions on this question. 
 Who did you have present at your discussions ? 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. The discussions usually take place in committees. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Who. were present? 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. At these committee meetings? 
 
 Senator Briggs. Yes. Members of your grange ? 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. Anyone who wishes to be heard. 
 
 Senator Briggs. They were there ; but did they have a right to be 
 there? Were not your discussions really discussions usually, of the 
 members of your grange? 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. Usually that was true. 
 
1266 PABCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Do you think that we stand in that position ? Sup- 
 pose we had heard you on the one hand and heard the express com- 
 panies on the other hand and had not heard the other side ? 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. We do not ask them to come in and present their 
 side of the question. 
 
 Senator Briggs. You make up your mind from a presentation of 
 one side of the case. Now, do you think it is hardly fair to put it up 
 to the members of this committee who have been sitting here that we 
 are trying to defraud you out of your rights ? Do you not think that 
 is a little bit unfair to us ? We are sitting here as the representatives 
 of all the people of the country, and we are trying and have been try- 
 ing all this winter to arrive at a fair and square solution of this 
 question. 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. I think that is true. 
 
 Senator Briggs. We are all of us, so far as I know — the members 
 ■of this committee are in favor of some sort of a parcel post ? 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. I think so. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Do you not think it is a little bit unfair to ap- 
 proach us in that way, to come here and practically say to us that we 
 are trying to defraud you out of your just dues; that we have been 
 doing so for 30 years? 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. Well, I do not know that I meant to imply that. 
 
 The Chairman. That is what you stated. I do not think you did 
 mean to imply that, but that was the inference that could be drawn 
 naturally from the statement you made. 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. Possibly that is true, but in that event we all agree 
 to the general proposition, as just stated by the Senator, that the 
 farmer people are beginning to wonder why it is necessary to delay 
 the proposition longer. That is all I meant to imply. 
 
 Senator Briggs. I wish some of you were down here all winter and 
 had read all the evidence we have taken. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Atkinson has been before the committee two 
 or three times. I do not think Mr. Atkinson intended to leave the 
 impression his remarks would have but for your putting in your 
 remarks and drawing out his explanation. His statement was that 
 the delay was drawn out and that the United States Senate and 
 Congress could give some measure of relief within 30 years. 
 
 Senator Bristow. If you will permit me to suggest, I think if 
 you could read the mail of a United States Senator for a month on 
 this question you would think that there were different points of 
 view at which many very good people are looking at this question. 
 I think if you could see my mail for one week you would see it at 
 a good many different angles. 
 
 Senator Briggs. I assure you my mail is not like your meetings — 
 all on one side. 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. The discussion was not the question. The dis- 
 cussion was that we, as farmer people, had put the best study to the 
 question that we could. We were not trying to settle what kind of a 
 postal service we should have, whether it should be an express, but, 
 as I say, we have studied these different problems that came up 
 with the best thinking the farmers of the country could give to it. 
 We were not investigating with a view to what manner of service 
 should be rendered or how it should be rendered. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1267 
 
 The Chairman. What you are asking is for action, and that as 
 soon as possible ? 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. That is it exactly, and that is all. 
 
 Senator Beiggs. I assure you if we could have gotten this without 
 all these hearings we would have given it to you. 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. I think the farmer people are thoroughly satisfied 
 that the Congress has become so fully satisfied that there should be 
 some relief, and that they are seeking now, perhaps as never before,, 
 an honest intention to arrive at the best possible solution of the ques- 
 tion that involves the citizenship of the country. The Senators will 
 agree with that proposition, and they are seeking to arrive at the best 
 possible solution of the knotty question. 
 
 Senator Briggs. It is because I believed that that I called to ques- 
 tion your earlier remarks. 
 > Mr. Atkinson. I am inclined to think that the farmers have ar- 
 rived at their conclusion from certainly the best possible application 
 of the study of the question that they can give to it and that they 
 are entitled to some relief, and when this postal-express proposition 
 was presented that seemed to offer a solution that had not been sug- 
 gested by any other plan. Now, those of you who have heard me 
 before understand that my position has been that we want the best 
 possible solution of a very fundamentally important question. 
 
 Senator Briggs. Then you want the unlimited-weight law? 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. An unlimited weight. 
 
 The Chairman. You are not satisfied with an 11-pound maximum- 
 weight limit? 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. No, sir; not if it is possible to do better. 
 
 The Chairman. Is there anything further you care to offer ? 
 
 Mr. Atkinson. I was interested primarily in putting in the record 
 the typewritten matter I had with me. That is all I have. 
 
 STATEMENT OF A. NEVIN DETRICH. 
 
 The Chairman. Kindly state your full name and age. 
 
 Mr. Detrich. A. Nevin Detrich, managing editor of the Pennsyl- 
 vania Grange News. The position of the grange has been stated by 
 Mr. Atkinson quite clearly, and in my capacity it has been my work 
 to disseminate information among the farmers and members of the 
 grange through my magazine. We have felt and feel yet that the 
 farmers of the country are not afforded a transportation or a carrying 
 system which their business demands on the receiving end, and beyond 
 that they are denied the proper sending of their products and we have 
 tried, through our organization, to encourage legislation that would 
 give the farmer this very important thing, and as we have proceeded 
 into the question of the parcel post it has appealed to us as being 
 inadequate, a limited parcel post, and when the Lewis proposition, 
 which we know as the postal-express bill, was given to Congress our 
 organization in Pennsylvania took it up and we believed, and believe 
 yet, that in that we had found the ideal situation, namely, the 
 abolition of the express companies — not of the express business, but 
 the removal of that which we consider parasite — and we believe that 
 the carrying of parcels to and from the farms should be for the gen- 
 eral welfare rather than for the creation of dividends; consequently 
 it is our position that the Government should handle this business. 
 
1268 PARCEL POST. 
 
 As to an argument on the details of the proposition I hardly feel 
 qualified to go into and take up the time of the committee to-night, 
 unless there are some questions that I might be able to answer or that 
 might be cleared up. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you worked out to your own satisfaction 
 the details and know that it is practicable and what rates should be 
 charged by the Government, assuming that it absorbed the express 
 companies ? 
 
 Tvir. Dietrich. As to the matter of rates, we have accepted those 
 that have been worked out by the men who have given special study 
 to the proposition. 
 
 The Chairman. They are not specified in this bill, are they — the 
 Gardner bill ?• 
 
 Mr. Detrich. No; but in the data which accompanies the bill, at 
 least in the House, the Goeke bill, which I understand is the same as 
 the House bill. 
 
 The Chairman. Are rates specified in that bill? 
 
 Mr. Detrich. Rates are suggested at least. There is nothing estab- 
 lished in the rates, and I do not believe that rates can be arbitrarily 
 placed in the legislation. 
 
 The Chairman. You would simply delegate plenary power to the 
 Postmaster General to make such classification, such weights and such 
 contracts as he saw fit in handling 300,000,000 pieces, which it would 
 run intc by the absorption? 
 
 Mr. Detrich. As I understand the rates, they are to be made by 
 the department, subject to the approval of the Interstate Commerce 
 Commission ? 
 
 The Chairman. Then your idea would be to delegate the power 
 to the Postmaster General, subject to the approval of the Interstate 
 Commerce Commission, as to the fixing of rates, and so forth. 
 
 Mr. Detrich. Exactly. 
 
 The Chairman. Under the bill, the provisions are made that an 
 appeal could be made to the Supreme Court of the United States. 
 It would probably take five years before an adjustment is made and a 
 determination reached. Would you rather have an effective parcel 
 post put into operation within the near future, or legislation enacted 
 in this Congress than you would to wait for the postal express and a 
 determination of the questions to be settled by the Supreme Court ? 
 
 Mr. Detrich. I am not familiar with the legal end of it, but is it 
 not a fact that the same might be true of the parcel-post bill ? 
 
 The Chairman. I do not think so. Not if the bill is worked out 
 and a zone system established in the bill itself, and the rates desig- 
 nated in the bill. In that event I do not see why any time should be 
 required other than the period designated in the bill as to the time 
 which the bill was to go into operation. 
 
 Mr. Detrich. I know nothing of the legal questions involved or 
 the likelihood of a delay of five years, as you suggest, because of the 
 action of the Supreme Court. 
 
 The Chairman. I mean in case the railroads and the Govern- 
 ment were not able to come to a determination, in reference to con- 
 tracts and other provisions, and properly so, that under this bill, as 
 I understand it, the final determining agency is the Supreme Court 
 of the United States. Is not that so, Senator Gardner? 
 
 Senator Gardner. As to the value of property; yes. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1269 
 
 Mr. Lewis. I want to suggest that the bill would take the prop- 
 erties over in their entirety. The bill appropriates the properties as 
 a legislative act. The only question open to legislation would be the 
 appraisement of the property, so the possible delay of five years I do 
 not think could happen. 
 
 The Chairman. Are there any other points in reference to the 
 bill, Mr. Detrich, on which you would like to speak? 
 
 Mr. Detrich. The main point that I want to make would be the 
 benefit derived by the whole people from the elimination of the 
 exorbitant express charges. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose they were reduced by the Interstate Com- 
 merce Commission? 
 
 Mr. Detrich. As I understand the proposition the Interstate Com- 
 merce Commission can not under the law reduce the charges of the 
 express companies to such an extent as to wreck them. 
 
 The Chairman. They can not make them confiscatory and neither 
 could we. "We could not compel the railroads to haul mail at con- 
 fiscatory rates. 
 
 Mr. Detrich. Is it not a fact, however, a proved fact brought 
 out in the hearings on this proposition, that the express company 
 rates to-day are exorbitant and as they touch the actual valuation of 
 the express companies' investment? In other words, the dividends 
 paid by the express companies and the charges which they make are 
 paid on capitalization rather than in cases of their real value. Would 
 not that be eliminated by the Government management of the busi- 
 ness? 
 
 The Chairman. The Interstate Commerce Commission themselves 
 have the power, as I understand it, to make such rates and regu- 
 lations as would be fair for the capital invested and the benefits 
 received. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Would not that apply to the total capitaliza- 
 tion of the express companies ? 
 
 The Chairman. I am not a lawyer to pass upon that. That is 
 a matter, as I say, the Interstate Commerce Commission has been 
 a great many months investigating. They have spent a large sum 
 of money in making their investigations and are about coming to 
 their conclusions, as I understand, and I presume whatever they 
 will do will be reported in the course of a few months. I do not 
 think there is any doubt but what they have the right to regulate 
 the express companies. The point I make is this: If they do that 
 and they find that conditions are as supposed— that the rates may be 
 exhorbitant — and they reduce those rates, then I do not see but 
 what the public would be getting the benefit the same as if the 
 Government absorbed the express companies. 
 
 Senator Gardner. That is true, but the point I had in mind is, 
 if their rates are based upon their total capitalization, somewhere 
 near $200.000,000 
 
 The Chairman. When, according to your information, they have 
 onlv $40,000,000 ., n „ , T 
 
 Senator Gardner. Exactly. Would it be possible tor the Inter- 
 state Commerce Commission to reduce their rates on that capitali- 
 zation very materially? 
 
 The Chairman. You mean whether the rates would be fixed on 
 actual money invested or on the capitalization? 
 
1270 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Senator Gardner. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman. I could not answer, you know, for the Interstate 
 Commerce Commission. 
 
 Senator Gardner. I simply asked the question because that has 
 been my understanding. They were only earning 7 or 7£ per cent 
 on their capital. 
 
 Senator Bristow. Senator, the Interstate Commerce Commission 
 does not take into consideration the capital, only as one of the ele- 
 ments ; the value of the property is the. basis for rate making. The 
 decision of the Supreme Court is that the transportation company 
 has the right to a fair return on the value of the property and not 
 on its capitalization. Its capitalization might be small or it might 
 be large. 
 
 Senator Gardner. I understand that, but it would take quite a 
 strong argument to convince me that they were only getting 1\ 
 per cent on the capital actually employed. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Detrich, have you anything further to say? 
 
 Mr. Detrich. Nothing further. 
 
 Thereupon, at 10.45 o'clock p. m., the hearing adjourned. 
 
REPORT. 
 
 The result of the hearings published in the five volumes of this 
 series is summarized in the report of the Senate Committee on Post 
 Offices and Post Eoads on the Post Office appropriation bill for the 
 fiscal year ending June 30, 1913. 
 
 THE HOUSE PARCEL-POST PROVISION. 
 
 _ That bill, as it came from the House, contained a parcel-post pro- 
 vision, reading as follows : 
 
 Sec. 8. That hereafter postage shall be paid on matter of the fourth class at 
 the rate of twelve cents per pound, except as herein provided. 
 
 That no article, package, or parcel shall be mailable as matter of the fourth 
 class which exceeds eleven pounds in weight. 
 
 That on each and all rural mail delivery routes of the United States the 
 postmaster at the starting point of such route shall until June thirtieth, nine- 
 teen hundred and fourteen, receive and deliver to the carrier or carriers of 
 said routes all articles, parcels, or packages not pohibited to the mails by law 
 and falling under the definition of fourth-class matter and not weighing in 
 excess of eleven pounds, for transportation and delivery on said routes; and 
 the carriers shall receive at intermediate points on all rural routes such mail 
 matter of the fourth class for delivery on rural routes only. 
 
 That postage shall be paid on all articles, parcels, or packages entitled to 
 transportation under the provisions of this act as matter of the fourth class 
 on rural mail delivery routes only at the following rates : Five cents per 
 pound, and one cent per pound for each additional pound or fraction thereof up 
 to and including a total of eleven pounds. That the Postmaster General shall 
 make all rules and regulations necessary and not inconsistent with law to the 
 proper execution of this act, and shall provide for the transportation of farm 
 and factory products as fourth-class matter if not perishable in transportation. 
 
 That for the purpose of a full and complete inquiry and investigation into 
 the feasibility and propriety of the establishment of a general parcels post or 
 express post a joint committee of six persons, three of whom shall be appointed 
 by the Speaker of the House of Representatives and three by the President of 
 the Senate, is constituted, with full power to appoint clerks, stenographers, and 
 experts to assist them in this work. They shall review the testimony already 
 taken on the subject of parcels post and express post by Senate and House com- 
 mittees and take such other testimony as they deem desirable. That the Post- 
 master General and the Interstate Commerce Commission shall furnish such 
 data and otherwise render such assistance to the said commission as may be 
 desired or available. For the purpose of defraying the expenses of this com- 
 mittee the sum of twenty-five thousand dollars is hereby appropriated out of 
 the moneys in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated. The committee shall 
 report fully to Congress on the first Monday in December, nineteen hundred 
 and twelve. 
 
 SENATE COMMITTEE'S REPORT. 
 
 In recommending a substitute for that provision the Senate com- 
 mittee said: 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The most important change recommended relates to parcel-post service. 
 Section 8 of the bill as passed by the House provides that hereafter the rate 
 of postage on fourth-class matter shall be 12 cents per pound, except that until 
 
 58773— vol 5—12 8 1271 
 
1272 PAECEL POST. 
 
 June 30, 1914, packages up to 11 pounds in weight may be received and de- 
 livered on rural routes at the rate of 5 cents for the first pound and 1 cent for 
 each additional pound. The local service proposed is limited to rural routes 
 only, and does not include city deli very. 
 
 This section also provides for the appointment of a conimision of three Sen- 
 ators and three Representatives to investigate the subject of parcel post and to 
 report fully on the first Monday in December next. This is commonly referred 
 to as a parcel-post provision, but the service proposed is so limited in extent 
 that it is not deemed satisfactory by the Senate committee. 
 
 While it is asserted that the establishment of a rate of 12 cents per pound does 
 not discontinue the present rate of 1 cent per ounce up to 4 pounds, yet the 
 language seems to declare that there shall be only the one rate of 12 cents per 
 pound if this section of the bill should be passed as it came from the House. At 
 best, there would be great uncertainty in this respect. However that may be, 
 the Senate committee believes that this rate on fourth-class matter is exces- 
 sively high, that a flat rate is unscientific and inequitable, and that no good 
 reason exists for further delay in the enactment of a parcel-post law. For 
 11 months this committee, by subcommittee and otherwise, has been giving 
 thorough consideration to the parcel-post problem and has held hearings and 
 collected the most complete information on the subject ever made available in 
 this country. 
 
 At the conclusion of the subcommittee hearings on the subject of parcel post, 
 and after frequent and extended conferences with the heads of the four bureaus 
 of the Post Office Department, the chairman submitted to the subcommittee a 
 report setting forth the principles which, in his opinion, should govern the 
 formation of a parcel-post system and embodying the provisions of the bill as 
 be believed it should be drawn. As the bill therein suggested was the basis for 
 the action which the committee finally took, there is set forth herein a complete 
 copy of the report : 
 
 SUBCOMMITTEE REPORT. 
 
 To the subcommittee of the Senate Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads. 
 
 Gentlemen : As you are aware, on June 16, 1911, the Senate adopted my 
 Senate resolution 56, reading as follows : 
 
 "Resolved, That the Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads is hereby 
 authorized and directed, by subcommittee or otherwise, to inquire into and 
 report to the Senate at the earliest date practicable what changes are necessary 
 or desirable in the postal system of the United States or in laws relating to the 
 postal service, and particularly with reference to the establishment of a parcel 
 post, and for this purpose they are authorized to sit during the sessions or 
 recesses of Congress, at such times and places as they may deem desirable or 
 practicable ; to send for persons and papers ; to administer oaths ; to summon 
 and compel the attendance of witnesses ; to conduct hearings, and have reports 
 of same printed for use ; and to employ such clerks, stenographers, and other 
 assistants as shall be necessary, and any expense in connection with uch inquiry 
 shall be paid out of the contingent fund of the Senate upon vouchers to be ap- 
 proved by the chairman of the committee." 
 
 Under authority and direction of that resolution the following subcommittee 
 was appointed : Senator Bourne, chairman ; Senators Penrose, Briggs, Bristow, 
 Bankhead, Swanson, and Bryan. 
 
 Believing it important to secure data relative to the operations of parcel-post 
 systems in foreign countries, the following letter was addressed to the honorable 
 Secretary of State: 
 
 United States Senate, 
 Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads, 
 
 August 18, 1911. 
 The honorable the Secretaey of State. 
 
 My Deae Me. Secretary: I inclose herewith copy of Senate resolution 56, 
 adopted by the Senate June 16, 1911. Under authority of same I am taking pre- 
 liminary steps for the collation of obtainable data in re parcel post as it is now 
 in operation in foreign countries. I would respectfully request your coopera- 
 tion in this matter and would ask you to kindly instruct the diplomatic repre- 
 sentatives of the United States in countries operating a parcel or package post 
 to obtain from the several countries to which they are accredited the fullest pos- 
 sible information with respect to such parcel or package post. Such information 
 should consist chiefly of an abstract of the law and the rules and regulations 
 
PARCEL POST. 1273 
 
 governing the operation of the parcel post ; the weight limit of parcels ; the rate 
 or rates of postage; the greatest dimensions of parcels accepted for mailing; 
 whether delivery of parcels is made to the residence of the addressee or to 
 some intermediate point, such as the nearest post office or railway station, and 
 if to an intermediate point, what are the particulars concerning the rate of 
 postage, and what means are used to notify the addressee that a package awaits 
 him at such intermediate point; a statement of the revenue and expenditure and 
 the amount of parcel-post business transacted during a term of 10 years; a 
 statement showing the additional postal equipment, if any, made necessary by 
 the establishment of a parcel post ; a statement showing in what particulars the 
 transportation of parcels differs from the handling of letter mail, and whether 
 the operation of the parcel post has caused any delay or difficulty in the prompt 
 and satisfactory treatment of letter mail ; a schedule of the articles which may 
 or which may not be sent by parcel post ; a statement describing any opposition 
 which may have been manifested before or since the establishment of the parcel 
 post; information as to whether any common carriers exist similar in any way 
 to the American express companies, and, if so, a brief of their nature and their 
 relation to the Government; whether the Government operates the railroads in 
 whole or in part and, where it does, full information showing the bearing which 
 this fact has on the operation of the parcel post; a statement showing the 
 attitude of the people with reference to the parcel post, and what benefits, if 
 any, have resulted from its operation to the people at large; where two or 
 more rates exist dependent on speed of transportation, such as I understand 
 exist in France, 'full information is desired; specific information as to whether 
 shopkeepers in small towns claim that the parcel post militates against them and 
 in favor of the large departmental or city stores. 
 
 I would appreciate it greatly if you would cause this information to be pro- 
 cured with the greatest possible dispatch and could give me same indication as 
 to approximately when it will be available. 
 
 Tours, very sincerely, Jonathan Bourne, Jr.. 
 
 Chairman. 
 
 Full information was received from 43 countries having a parcel post. This 
 information, together with data secured from all the leading express companies 
 regarding their operations, was tabulated under my direction and presented to 
 this committee in a series of charts issued in December, 1911 . 
 
 The reports received from foreign countries were printed in a separate volume 
 entitled " Parcel Post in Foreign Countries," and distributed among the Mem- 
 bers of Congress. Public hearings were held during the months of November 
 and December, 1911, and January, February, and March, 1912. All parties in- 
 terested in the subject were, upon application, given an opportunity to be 
 heard. 
 
 Among the organizations that were represented at the hearings were the Na- 
 tional Association of Retail Grocers, National Hardware Association, United 
 Order of Commercial Travels of America, National Federation of Retail Mer- 
 chants, National Wholesale Dry Goods Association, National Retail Hardware 
 Association, Tri-State Vehicle and Implement Dealers' Association, State Busi- 
 ness Men's Association of Connecticut, Baltimore Credit Men's Association, 
 Wholesale Clothiers' Board of Trade, National Association of Retail Druggists, 
 Society of American Florists and Ornamental Horticulturists, Farmers' Na- 
 tional Committee on Postal Reform and the Postal Express Federation, Con- 
 necticut State Grange, Postal Progress League, American Library Association, 
 New England Educational Association, Legislative Committee of the National 
 Grange, State Grange of Michigan, Retail Dry Goods Association of New York, 
 American Poultry Association, Knights of Labor, Associated Retailers of St. 
 Louis, Mo., Women's Trade-Union League, Farmers' National Congress, Na- 
 tional Dairy Union, and Farmers' Educational and Cooperative Union of Amer- 
 ica. These organizations represent practically every interest that would be 
 affected by parcel-post legislation. 
 
 The results of these hearings were printed, in four volumes and distributed 
 among Members of Congress and sent to those requesting copies. The coopera- 
 tion of the Post Office and State Departments was most valuable, and I desire 
 to express my appreciation of same. 
 
 After nearly a year consumed in securing all obtainable data upon the subject 
 and after much careful study of same and after several conferences with the 
 Post Office Department officials in order to get a concrete proposition before 
 the Senate and country, I introduced on May 16 the following bill (S. 6850) : 
 
1274 PARCEL POST. 
 
 ORIGINAL BOURNE BILL. 
 
 " Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United 
 States of America in Congress assembled, That hereafter mail matter shall con- 
 sist of three classes only, namely, first, second, and third. The first and second 
 classes shall remain as now defined by law. The third class shall embrace all 
 matter not now embraced by law in either the first or second class, not exceed- 
 ing eleven pounds in weight, nor greater in size than seventy-two inches in 
 length and girth combined, nor in form or kind likely to injure the person of any 
 postal employee or damage the mail equipment or other mail matter and not of 
 a character perishable within a period reasonably required for transportation 
 and delivery. 
 
 " Sec. 2. That for the purposes of this act the United States and its several 
 Territories and possessions, excepting the Philippine Islands, shall be divided 
 into units of area thirty minutes square, identical with a quarter of the area 
 formed by the intersecting parallels of latitude and meridians of longitude, as 
 represented on the Robinson plan registered April second, nineteen hundred and 
 twelve, and such units of area shall be the basis of six postal zones, as follows: 
 
 "First. The first zone shall include all territory within such quadrangle, in 
 conjunction with every contiguous quadrangle, representing an area having a 
 mean radial distance of approximately fifty miles from the center of any given 
 unit of area. 
 
 11 Second. The second zone shall include all units of area outside the first zone 
 lying in whole or in part within a radius of approximately two hundred miles 
 from the center of a given unit of area. 
 
 " Third. The third zone shall include all units of area outside the second zone 
 lying in whole or in part within a radius of approximately five hundred miles 
 from the center of a given unit of area. 
 
 " Fourth. The fourth zone shall include all units of area outside the third 
 zone lying in whole or in part within a radius of approximately one thousand 
 miles from the center of a given unit of area. 
 
 " Fifth. The fifth zone shall include all units of area outside the fourth zone 
 lying in whole or in part within a radius of approximately two thousand miles 
 from the center of a given unit of area. 
 
 " Sixth. The sixth zone shall include all units of area outside the fifth zone. 
 
 " Sec. 3. That the rate of postage on third-class matter weighing not more 
 than four ounces shall be one cent for each ounce or fraction of an ounce; and 
 on such matter in excess of four ounces in weight the rate shall be by the pound, 
 as hereinafter provided, the postage in all cases to be prepaid by distinctive post- 
 age stamps afiixed, except when offered in identical pieces of two thousand or 
 more not weighing in excess of four ounces each, in which case the postage may 
 be paid in money, under such regulations as the Postmaster General may pre- 
 scribe. 
 
 " Sec 4. That except as provided in section three postage on matter of the 
 third class shall be prepaid at the following rates : 
 
 " On all matter mailed at the post office from which a rural route starts, for 
 delivery on such route, or mailed at any point on such route for delivery at any 
 other point thereon, or at the office from which the route starts, or on any rural 
 route starting therefrom, and on all matter mailed at a city carrier office, or at 
 any point within its delivery limits, for delivery by carriers, or at any office for 
 local delivery, five cents for the, first pound or fraction of a pound and one cent 
 for each additional pound or fraction of a pound. 
 
 " For delivery within the first zone, except as provided in paragraph one of 
 this section, six cents for the first pound or fraction of a pound and two cents 
 for each additional pound or fraction of a pound. 
 
 " For delivery within the second zone, seven cents for the first pound or frac- 
 tion of a pound and three cents for each additional pound or fraction of a pound 
 
 " For delivery within the third zone, eight cents for the first pound or frac- 
 tion of a pound and four cents for each additional pound or fraction of a pound 
 
 " For delivery within the fourth zone, eleven cents for the first pound or frac- 
 tion of a pound and seven cents for each additional pound or fraction of a 
 pound. 
 
 " For delivery within the fifth zone, twelve cents for the first pound or frac- 
 tion of a pound and ten cents for each additional pound or fraction of a pound 
 
 " For delivery within the sixth zone and between the Philippine Islands and 
 any portion of the United States, including the District of Columbia and the 
 
PARCEL POST. 1275 
 
 several Territories and possessions, twelve cents for the first pound or fraction 
 of a. pound and twelve cents for each additional pound or fraction of a pound. 
 
 ' Sec. 5. That the Postmaster General shall provide such special equipment, 
 maps, stamps, directories, and printed instructions as may be necessary for the 
 administration of this act ; and for the purposes of this act, and to supplement 
 existing appropriations, including the hiring of teams and drivers, there is 
 hereby appropriated, out of any money in the Treasury not otherwise appro- 
 priated, the sum of seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars. 
 
 " Sec. 6. That the reclassification, establishment of zones, and postage rates 
 of^this act shall go into effect four months after its passage. 
 
 " Sec. 7. That all laws and parts of laws in conflict with the provisions of this 
 act are hereby repealed." 
 
 APPROVED BY POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT. 
 
 This bill was referred to the Fost Office Department and after consideration 
 the Postmaster General unqualifiedly approved the bill in the following letter, 
 which bears the indorsement of his four assistants : 
 
 Office of the Postmaster General, 
 
 Washington, D. C, Map 18, 1912. 
 Hon. Jonathan Bourne, Jr., 
 
 Chairman Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads, 
 
 United States Senate. 
 My Dear Senator: Replying to your letter of the 16th instant, with which 
 you inclose a copy of Senate bill 6850, entitled "A bill to establish a parcel-post 
 system and to fix rates of postage on certain classes of mail," I have to inform 
 you that the bill has been carefully considered, and its contents, scope, and 
 purpose are approved by this department. 
 
 The bill has four distinctive features which, in my judgment, should commend 
 it not only to Congress but to the public as well, namely, (1) the consolidation 
 of the fourth and the third classes of mail matter; (2)' the establishment of a 
 cheap and simple rural route and city delivery parcel post; (3) the division 
 of the United States and its possessions into six appropriate postal zones, based 
 upon a quarter of the area formed by the intersection of parallels of latitude 
 and meridians of longitude; and (4) the fixing for delivery within these zones 
 of a graduated scale of postage rates based upon the cost of handling and 
 transportation. 
 
 The consolidation of the fourth and the third classes of mail matter will 
 greatly facilitate the administration of the postal service by simplifying the 
 schedule of postage rates and lessening the labor of classification, weighing, and 
 distribution. 
 
 The delivery of parcels to the limit of 11 pounds on all rural routes and within 
 the delivery limits of free carrier offices will effect both an economy and a public 
 convenience, as it will enable the inhabitants of the rural sections to use the 
 mails for the transportation of the various small products of the farm, garden, 
 and orchard, and at the same time to have delivered to them many of the 
 smaller articles of necessity purchased in the towns without the time and 
 expense incident to a trip of several miles for a trifling purchase. 
 
 The establishment of units of area of invariable dimensions on the basis of 
 latitude and longitude will give a fixed starting point from which may be 
 reckoned the distance of transportation and the rates of postage to be charged 
 for the service performed. Representations of these areas upon appropriate 
 maps, supplied by the Government, showing the location of the post oflices and 
 the limits of the several zones will enable the postmasters to determine the 
 necessary postage charges and to make proper dispatch of the mails. 
 
 The various scales of charges fixed for the several zones are based upon the 
 actual cost of handling and transportation, and will enable the public to send 
 through the mails parcels to the limit of 11 pounds at the cost of the service 
 rendered. This will be a great improvement upon the present system which 
 fixes similar rates for all distances. The effect of this measure will be not only 
 to lessen the cost of transportation but to stimulate the general trade in small 
 wares, and also to increase the postal revenue and pave the way for other postal 
 reforms. 
 
 In my judgment, the proposed measure will beiu-fit all classes of the people 
 except those carriers now engaged in the business of transporting small wares. 
 While the patronage of these will be lessened, it will have the effect to limit 
 
1276 PAECEL POST. 
 
 their business to the more weighty freight, which is distinctly the business of 
 such carriers. 
 
 1 trust that this measure may have early consideration by the Congress and 
 be speedily enacted into law. 
 
 Yours, very truly, Frank H. Hitchcock, 
 
 Postmaster General. 
 
 I respectfully submit this bill to the subcommittee for consideration and 
 desire to make the following explanation of the changes it proposes in the 
 classification of mail and postage rates: 
 
 At present there are four classes of mail : 
 
 First class, including all sealed or written matter. 
 
 Second class, newspapers, periodicals, and magazines. 
 
 Third class, printed matter. 
 
 Fourth class, merchandise. 
 
 Our present fourth class represents a very limited parcel post. The parcel- 
 post principle is, therefore, already in operation in this country through the 
 fourth-class privilege permitting a citizen to send merchandise and packages 
 through the mail up to a 4-pound limit at a cost of 1 ceDt per ounce. The 
 problem presented is as to the desirability and feasibility of extending this 
 privilege. 
 
 On the subject of advisability and feasibility of the parcel post, it is worth 
 while to consider the fact that nearly all the civilized countries in the world 
 have parcel-post systems, and have had for a number of years ; no country has 
 abandoned the parcel post when once established, nor is there any demand 
 among the people or the retail merchants for such abandonment. 
 
 It is readily apparent that simplicity is desirable where practicable in gov- 
 ernmental operation. This is necessary for the convenience of the public and 
 for economy in operation. For that reason the combination of the third and 
 fourth classes of mail matter is very desirable, and, in my opinion, it is per- 
 fectly feasible. This suggestion was made by the Post Office Department, and 
 appeals to me very strongly. At present third-class matter has a maximum 
 weight limit of 4 pounds, and the postage rate is 1 cent for 2 ounces. 
 
 In my bill (S. 6850) I propose to combine the third and fourth classes, 
 but leave a flat rate of 1 cent per ounce up to 4 ounces, the purpose being to 
 provide for circular matter now mailed under the third class at 1 cent for each 
 2 ounces. Investigation shows that the average weight of such circulars falls 
 under an ounce, hence, although the rate is seemingly doubled on circular 
 matter, yet, in general, the cost of sending circulars is practically unchanged 
 and no injustice or hardship ensues. Catalogues or other printed matter 
 not of the second class weighing more than 4 ounces would go at the parcel- 
 post rates, according to the distance transported. Catalogues and other printed 
 matter weighing more than 4 ounces are, in shape, weight, and manner of 
 handling, parcels, the same as other classes of merchandise, and there is no 
 apparent reason why they should be transported at a different rate. 
 
 "Under this plan of consolidation of the present third and fourth class mail 
 matter we will have but three classes instead of four as at present, with the 
 result that the Government will know the gross receipts for, each class of mail 
 matter, providing my recommendation of establishing special packet stamps 
 suitable only for the new third-class mail matter be adopted. Then all first- 
 class mail matter will be paid for by use of ordinary postage stamps, the gross 
 receipts from sale of which will be credited to first-class mail matter. All 
 second-class mail matter will be paid for as at present, in money, and third- 
 class mail matter be paid for by use of special packet stamps, the sale of which 
 will be credited to the new third-class mail matter. Thus, without the expense 
 of a single additional bookkeeper, the Government will have reliable informa- 
 tion as to the gross receipts of each of the three classes of mail matter, which 
 information will be of immense value in the ascertainment of the relative costs 
 of each whenever a plan is evolved to show the relative expense for handling 
 each class. 
 
 Postal transportation, in my opinion, differs in some respects from any other. 
 There are two activities in most postal service — one performed entirely by the 
 Government clerk or carrier, each paid directly by the Government, and the 
 other performed by a transportation company. The first activity I term the 
 overhead or handling activity representing the collection and delivering of the 
 packages. The other I term the transportation activity, paid for by the Gov- 
 ernment not directly to the Government employee, but to the transportation 
 company carrying the packages. 
 
PARCEL POST. 1277 
 
 I will first consider the overhead or handling cost, which when determined 
 constitutes an initial and fixed cost to which we must add the transportation 
 charge. It is immaterial whether the package be collected in Washington and 
 delivered in Baltimore or delivered in San Francisco, for the cost is the same 
 so far as the handling charge alone is concerned. The officials of the Post 
 Office Department estimate this handling cost, in fourth-class mail matter, to 
 be a fraction under 3 cents for the first pound and say that an additional cost 
 of 20 per cent Increase, or 1 cent for each additional pound, is a liberal allow- 
 ance for the increased cost due to the increased weight. Therefore it is readily 
 apparent that up to the limit of the carrying capacity of the Government em- 
 ployee delivering the mail with a vehicle there is no appreciable increase inci- 
 dent to carrying a 2-pound, 3-pound, or 4-pound package as compared with the 
 cost of carrying a 1-pound package. 
 
 As shown by volume 2 of the parcel-post hearings, at pages 275 to 312, Mr. 
 John L. Newbold, president of the Merchants' Transfer & Storage Co., after 21 
 years' experience in delivering packages, stated that he would gladly make a 
 contract with the Government to handle all parcel packets to be delivered 
 within the free-delivery limits of the city of Washington, with an area of 
 about 67 square miles, at 5 cents per package up to a 25-pound weight limit for 
 each package. I am informed that similar delivery companies in New York 
 City, with a practical radius of 30 miles, estimate it costs them a fraction over 
 5 cents a package up to 25 pounds. Hence, in view of the department's esti- 
 mate of a fraction less than 3 cents cost to the Government for handling a 
 pound package, and in view of the experience of Mr. Newbold and his offer to 
 make a contract with the Government at 5 cents, I have suggested the adoption 
 of a 5-cent handling charge for the first pound, with an additional 1-cent han- 
 dling charge for each additional pound. 
 
 In the local, city, and rural service all the work is performed by the Govern- 
 ment employee. Whatever transportation is performed is by the Government 
 vehicle or the Government employee. Therefore the handling or overhead cost 
 covers the transportation cost in these two particular activities. Therefore, as 
 shown in section 4 of my bill, I recommend the adoption of 5 cents for the first 
 pound and 1 cent for every additional pound up to 11 pounds on all rural routes 
 and in all city delivery. 
 
 The next problem was the ascertainment of the necessary transportation 
 charge based on distance traveled. In my initial study of the problem I thought 
 this would be easily solved by taking each post office as a center and drawing a 
 circle around it according to the zone distance established. I soon determined 
 the impracticability of the adoption of this plan because of the fact that there 
 are some 60,000 post offices in the United States and with a map 10 feet long 
 and 10 feet wide an effort to designate the post offices on such map would be 
 like printing the Lord's Prayer on the head of a pin. 
 
 The next plan considered was to make each State a unit, and this also was 
 soon ascertained to be impracticable, as Texas, for example, contains, in round 
 numbers 260,000 square miles and Massachusetts only 8,000 square miles, with 
 practically the same number of inhabitants. If each State were made a unit 
 this would permit a citizen in Texas to send a package at a given rate many 
 times the distance within his own State that a citizen in Massachusetts could 
 within his. The plan of forming units by grouping several small States was 
 also found impracticable. 
 
 The next plan considered was that of adopting each county as a unit, but the 
 great difference in areas of these counties presented much the same injustice and 
 difficulty that the adoption of a State unit would present. Furthermore, to both 
 State and county units arose the objection of the possibiliy of change of their 
 boundaries and of the formation of new States and new counties. 
 
 The next thought was the adoption of a unit consisting of a quadrangle formed 
 by meridians of longitude and parallels of latitude. These are always fixed — 
 never changing — though varying somewhat in area according to their distance 
 from the equator, but on an average in the United States having a width east 
 and west of 54 miles and a length north and south of 69 miles. 
 
 The only difficulty to be overcome by the adoption of the degree as a unit 
 arose from the fact that post offices on the extreme diagonals of a degree would 
 be approximately 80 miles apart and, if degree lines be observed in all cases, a 
 citizen mailing a package at a post office near the boundary of a quadrangle 
 would have to pay an increased rate for a distance of only 2 miles because the 
 addressee's post office was just over the line of a degree. This was recognized 
 
1278 PAECEL POST. 
 
 as unscientific and inequitable and, therefore, to be avoided if possible. Thi 
 inequality is avoided in the plan which I hare submitted. 
 
 Mr. J. H. Robinson, of the Topographic Division in the Bureau of the Fourt 
 Assistant Postmaster General, suggested dividing the degree quadrangles int 
 quadrangles of 30 minutes length north and south and east and west, giving th 
 same rate to every post office in each quarter-degree quadrangle, with th 
 privilege of sending at the same rate to any post office in every contiguou 
 quarter-degree quadrangle. This plan appeals to me very strongly, and 
 earnestly recommend its adoption as the best plan upon which to determin 
 scientific and practical distance rates of transportation charges in the haudlin 
 of packages in parcel post. In order that the Government might enjoy th 
 benefits of this plan without posible interference, I requested Mr. Robinson t 
 patent and copyright his chart and to assign what interest he had to the Go\ 
 ernment. The copyright and patent have been secured at Government expense 
 
 We thus have the United States divided into about 3,500 different and neve 
 changeable units, each being 30 minutes in length, north and south and eas 
 and west. On the chart which I have had prepared each of these quadrangle 
 is given an index number. All post offices lo&ited in any of these quadrangle 
 have the same index number and will have exactly the same zone arrangement 
 but each quadrangle or quarter of a degree will have different zone limits, al 
 based, however, on practically the same distances. As a guide in the use of th- 
 index chart I suggested the printing of a directory giving the States in thei 
 alphabetical order, with marginal thumb index, and under each State the name 
 of all post offices located therein, with their index numbers — that is to saj 
 after the name of each post office the index number of the quadrangle in whicl 
 the post office is located. Thus is provided a very simple method of ascertain 
 ment of rates for transporting a package from any post office to any othe: 
 office. Twenty seconds should be the extreme amount of time consumed in th 
 ascertainment of any rate. 
 
 In practice the system would work thus: The citizen brings his package to th< 
 postmaster, the addressee's name being on the package, as usual, with the Stat 
 and post office. The postmaster takes his directory with the marginal thuml 
 index, turns to the State, and with the alphabetical arrangement of pos 
 offices in that State readily ascertains the index number of the quadrangle h 
 which the post office of the addressee is located. He then turns to his char 
 and readily sees the zone in which the addressee's post office is located and tin 
 rate to be charged. 
 
 This system of determining transportation charges is far more simple am 
 convenient 'than the systems now in use by either the express or freight com 
 panies. As everyone knows, when a package is taken to the express office th< 
 clerk must not only weigh the package but search for a considerable time in < 
 book of express rates in order to ascertain the charge which should be made 
 and even then very frequently mistakes are made. The system of determinin; 
 express charges is so complicated that it can not be understood by the averag 
 shipper. The same is true of freight rates. In order that I might have the bene 
 fit of every viewpoint I recently called into conference a number of men wh. 
 have for a number of years been connected with the transportation department 
 of express and railroad companies, and was assured by them that they had neve 
 before seen any plan of determining rates as simple and scientific as this I hav 
 proposed. 
 
 Estimates were made of the cost of adoption of this plan, and bids were re 
 ceived on the preparation of 300,000 copies of the index chart and a simila 
 number of post-office directories. The total cost would be $41,000. This wouli 
 allow two charts and two directories for each office, one set for the inside offic 
 and one for the outside office, and 180,000 of each to be sold to the public. 
 
 The proposed transportation charge is based upon the approximate transports 
 tion cost according to distance carried. Upon my request the Second Assistan 
 Postmaster General, Mr. Joseph Stewart, furnished the information as to th 
 estimated transportation cost to the Government of carrying 1 pound of fourtl: 
 class matter 50, 200. 500, 1,000, and 2,000 miles and over 2,000 miles. 
 
 The following table shows the handling charge, the actual transportatio: 
 cost, and the proposed rate for the first pound and each additional pound unde 
 the plan proposed by my parcel-post bill : 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 
 1279 
 
 Distance. 
 
 Overhead 
 'or handling 
 charge, 5 
 cents for 
 first pound 
 and 1 cent 
 
 for each 
 
 additional 
 
 pound. 
 
 Actual 
 transporta- 
 tion cost 
 per pound. 
 
 Total over- 
 head and 
 transporta- 
 tion charge 
 for first 
 pound. 
 
 Charge 
 
 for each 
 
 additional 
 
 pound. 
 
 Charge for 
 11 pounds. 
 
 Rural route and city delivery 
 
 SO. 05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 .05 
 
 
 $0.05 
 .06 
 .07 
 .08 
 .11 
 .12 
 .12 
 
 $0.01 
 .02 
 .03 
 .04 
 .07 
 .10 
 .12 
 
 $0.18 
 
 
 $0.00258 
 .01032 
 .02580 
 . 05160 
 . 10320 
 .12900 
 
 .26 
 
 
 .37 
 
 
 .48 
 
 
 .81 
 
 Fifth zone, 2,000 miles 
 
 1.12 
 
 Sixth zone, 2,500 miles (average distance). , 
 
 1.32 
 
 By adopting a quadrangle of 30 minutes in each dimension as a unit and giv- 
 ing to the patrons of every post office in that unit the right to send at the mini- 
 mum rate to any other post office in that unit or in any contiguous unit, we 
 establish an area of practically 90 miles square with a mean distance transpor- 
 tation of about 50 miles, and therefore I suggested the adoption of this as our 
 first zone. 
 
 The department estimates that it costs the Government under existing condi- 
 tions and contracts $0.00258 to transport 1 pound of fourth-class matter 50 
 miles. One cent is our smallest unit of money ; hence if wo make any trans- 
 portation charge for 50 miles it is necessary to make a cent-per-pound charge, 
 although giving the Government nearly 300 per cent profit on the transporta- 
 tion charge. There will not be so large a profit on the handling charge. 
 
 Hence I have adopted in the bill herewith presented for the first zone the rate 
 of 6 cents for the first pound and 2 cents for each additional pound, 1 cent per 
 pound being for transportation and the remainder the overhead or handling 
 charge. 
 
 According to the department's figures it costs the Government $0.0132 to haul 
 1 pound 200 miles. I have, therefore, adopted in my bill 2 cents as the trans- 
 portation charge for the distance of 200 miles, which would give the Government 
 nearly 70 per cent profit in the transportation charge. With the handling charge 
 included, the rate for this zone is 7 cents for the first pound and 3 cents for each 
 additional pound, 2 cents per pound being for transportation and the balance for 
 handling. 
 
 The estimated cost to the' Government of carrying 1 pound of fourth-class 
 matter 500 miles is $0.0258 ; hence I adopted in my bill 3 cents for transporta- 
 tion charge, thus giving the Government a small transportation profit, and, with 
 the handling charge included, making the rate S cents for the first pound and 4 
 cents for each additional pound, 3 cents per pound being for transportation and 
 the balance for handling. 
 
 The cost to the Government for hauling 1 pound a thousand miles is $0.0516, 
 and I adopt 6 cents per pound as the transportation charge, giving the Govern- 
 ment a small profit and making the total charge 11 cents for the first pound 
 and 7 cents for each additional pound, 6 cents per pound being for transporta- 
 tion and the balance for handling. 
 
 In my fifth zone of 2,<j00 miles the transportation cost to the Government is 
 $0.1032. I adopt the rate of 12 cents for the first pound and 10 cents for each 
 additional pound, slightly reducing my handling charge and also transporta- 
 tion charge. I can not defend this scientifically, but feel obliged to do this 
 because of the rate given by the United States to all foreign countries under the 
 international parcel post. That foreigners should have a postal rate of 12 
 cents per pound up to 11 pounds to any part of the United States or its insular 
 possessions is manifestly unjust and most irritating to our citizens when they 
 are not given the same privileges as the citizens of other countries. 
 
 For the same reason, I make a flat rate of 12 cents a pound in the sixth zone. 
 The Government may suffer a slight loss in the fifth and sixth zones, but it 
 will not be material in amount, for only about 7 per cent of our present fourth- 
 class mail matter is carrier a distance of over 2,000 miles and only 5 per cent 
 of our present fourth-class mail matter is carried a distance between 1,000 and 
 2,000 miles. Thus it will be seen that only 13 per cent, under existing conditions 
 of fourth-class mail matter, would fall within the last two zone distances. 
 
1280 PAECEL POST. 
 
 When rates based on distance are established, the percentage of matter carried 
 the long distance will be still less. In my opinion the growth of the parcel-post 
 business under this bill will result in a proportionate reduction in the cost of 
 handling, so that the long-distance rates will be self-supporting and the short- 
 distance rates can be materially reduced. On the whole, the rates I propose 
 leave a safe margin of profit and yet 'give the patron of the postal service a 
 greatly reduced rate as compared with the present charge or the charge pro- 
 posed by the House bill. 
 
 In conclusion, I wish to say that in the study of the parcel-post problem we 
 have given consideration to every plan of parcel post that has been submitted. 
 There are three general plans advocated — first, the flat rate per pound, regard- 
 less of distance ; second, the zone system, in which the rate varies according to 
 distance; third, Government ownership of the express companies. 
 
 I believe the flat-rate system unscientific, inequitable, and impracticable as 
 applied to packages such as we expect to transport under parcel post. It is 
 unscientific because it disregards distance. In the transportation of letters, 
 where the individual pieces are small, distance is of little consequence ; but this 
 is not true of packages of merchandise. It is inequitable because it charges the 
 shipper for short distances as excessive rate in order to counterbalance the low 
 rate for the shipper for long distances. It is impracticable because the high rate 
 for the short distance will practically prohibit the use of the service for trans- 
 portation of goods of low value. 
 
 Government ownership of express companies I deem unwise and unnecessary. 
 It tends toward paternalism and bureaucracy. In my opinion governmental 
 ownership should only be adopted as a dernier resort, where regulation has been 
 demonstrated to be a failure. 
 
 Private competition must result in vitalization of governmental operations. 
 Governmental competition with private enterprise must also result in decreased 
 cost to the public whenever the Government can operate as cheaply and efficiently 
 as a private individual. 
 
 Government ownership is unnecessary because the Government already has a 
 more complete organization for distribution than is possessed by all the express 
 companies in the United States combined. We can develop and extend our 
 present organization with the growth of the service as experience shows it is 
 needed. Government acquisition of the express companies is unwise because it 
 would involve the purchase of a large amount of property for which we have 
 no practical use and would necessitate payment of a considerable sum for the 
 good will of the express companies, which, so far as the Government is con- 
 cerned, has no monetary value. It is also unwise because the Government at 
 the present time should undertake only the handling of moderate-size packages, 
 leaving the larger packages to be handled by express companies or by freight. 
 I see no advantage that could be gained from the enactment of a Government- 
 owned law that will not be gained by the enactment of the parcel-post measure 
 I have offered. 
 
 Excessive express charges can and should be corrected by the Interstate Com- 
 merce Commission. It has power to regulate express as well as other transpor- 
 tation rates. For the last 20, months the Interstate Commerce Commission has 
 been investigating the express companies, at an expense to the Government of 
 about $200,000. Presumably their report will be completed and published within 
 the next few months. 
 
 Many protests have been received from country and city merchants, jobbers, 
 and traveling men on the theory that the parcel post would militate against 
 their business and specially benefit what are known as the catalogue and mail- 
 order houses. 
 
 At the hearings it was testified by the representative of one of the largest 
 mail-order houses of the United States that in point of value 82 per cent of the 
 catalogue business is shipped by freight, 10 per cent by express, and 8 per cent 
 by mail. In other words, though they get their orders by mail they ship the 
 goods chiefly by freight. There can never be a mail or express rate competitive 
 with the freight rate ; hence it is apparent that only the 10 per cent of the busi- 
 ness of the mail-order and catalogue houses which is now carried by express 
 would be carried by mail, and thus brought into closer competition with the busi- 
 ness of the local merchants. In Chicago, which is credited with being the 
 largest mail-order city in the United States, the total business of the mail- 
 order houses was $140,000,000 last year. Only the goods to the value of 
 $14,000,000, now shipped by express, could come into closer competition with the 
 
PARCEL POST. 1281 
 
 retail merchants. This business the local merchants must already compete with, 
 for it is now being shipped by express. 
 
 If the city merchant is sound in his argument against parcel post on the 
 ground that It will enlarge his competition with the mail-order houses, then he 
 would also have just cause for complaint if the Interstate Commerce Commis- 
 sion should order a lowering of express rates. In my opinion, the city mer- 
 chant has no right to complain if there be established a parcel-post rate suf- 
 ficient to cover the actual cost to the Government, and varying with the dis- 
 tance of transportation. 
 
 The House bill provides for the appointment of a commission to investigate 
 the parcel-post question and to report in December. If such a commission 
 should be appointed as early as the 1st of August, its work would be completed 
 and its report filed within four months. Its work would be conducted at a time 
 when the attention of all public men is centered on a political campaign. I do 
 not believe such a commission could perform this work more thoroughly or 
 secure more definite, complete, and reliable information within 4 months than 
 this committee has secured in the 11 months it has devoted to the subject. The 
 fact of the matter is that, owing to conditions in this country different from 
 those which exist In foreign countries, we can only make a limited application 
 of the experience and operation of the foreign parcel-post systems. Definite 
 and reliable' information in this country can be secured only by experience, and 
 therefore I deem it of the utmost importance that we enact at the earliest pos- 
 sible date a parcel-post law whose rates and provisions will be safely self-sus- 
 taining but which can be easily changed when experience has demonstrated the 
 desirability and practicability. The sooner we enact a real parcel-post law the 
 earlier will the people of the United States enjoy a practical parcel-post system. 
 Formation of legislative commissions or committees, rather than delegating 
 the power to administrative commissions, appeals to me most strongly. I feel 
 that all governmental problems requiring legislation should be worked out 
 through ascertainment studies conducted by joint committees of the two 
 branches of Congress. Thus is insured the appearance on the floor of both 
 Houses of the individuals directing the method of ascertainment and being the 
 authors of the deductions and recommendations based upon same. 
 
 By the adoption of such a general plan of procedure far more intelligent 
 legislative action can be taken and a check Interposed on the unrestrained 
 bureaucratic tendency for more power and more money. 
 
 In a previous Congress a request was made by the Postmaster General for 
 $100,000 appropriation for a parcel-post study and experiments. Under Senate 
 resolution 56 in our study of the parcel-post problem the total amount expended 
 from the contingent fund of the Senate has been less than $4,000. The bulk of 
 said expenditure has been for official stenographic work in the hearings that 
 have been held. This amount, however, does not cover the cost of printing, 
 which comes out of the general congressional printing fund. 
 Respectfully submitted. 
 
 Jonathan Bourne, Jr., 
 Chairman Senate Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads. 
 
 July 1, 1912. 
 
 MODIFICATION BY SENATE COMMITTEE. 
 
 While the committee had the Bourne bill under consideration the proposal to 
 consolidate the third and fourth class matter, with the consequent increase in 
 the charge on catalogues and circulars weighing more than 1 ounce, brought 
 forth a strenuous protest from printers and catalogue houses. These pro- 
 testants overlooked the fact that 90 per cent of the number of pieces of third- 
 class matter now deposited in the mails weigh less than 4 ounces each, and that 
 more than 50 per cent of the pieces weigh 1 ounce or less. They also overlook 
 the advantages printed matter would secure by the reduction in the postage on 
 packages going short distances at the lower parcel-post rate. 
 
 But, in view of these protests, and because the consolidation of third and 
 fourth class matter was not deemed vital to the parcel-post bill, the committee 
 decided to eliminate this feature of the measure, thus acquiescing in the desire 
 of the senders of third-class matter. 
 
 There was also a fear on the part of some that the proposed rates would not 
 be self-sustaining. Partly because of this opinion and partly because of the 
 desire to give the local retail merchants more protection against catalogue 
 
1282 
 
 PAECEL POST. 
 
 houses, the rates for the shorter distances were slightly raised, as will be seen 
 by reference to the printed bill. 
 
 For the first zone of 50 miles the rate was made 5 cents for the first pound 
 ami 3 cents for <?ach additional pound instead of 6> cents for the first pound 
 and 2 cents for each additional pound,' as originally proposed. This makes for 
 the average package of 4 pounds a charge of 14 cents instead of 12 cents, as 
 under the original bill. 
 
 The second zone was reduced from 200 miles to 150 miles, thus further pro- 
 tecting the local merchant in the field of his business, and the rate for the 
 second zone was made 6 cents for the first pound and 4 cents for each addi- 
 tional pound instead of 7 cents for the first pound and 3 cents for each addi- 
 tional pound, as originally proposed. This makes for the average package of 4 
 pounds a charge of 18 cents, instead of 16 cents, as proposed in the original 
 Bourne bill. 
 
 Corresponding changes were made in the third zone and the total number of 
 zones was increased to eight; but the bill as amended adheres to the principle 
 that 12 cents per pound shall be the maximum charge, thus assuring to our 
 own people no higher parcel-post rate than is established by the international 
 parcel post. 
 
 The following presents in concise form the zone distances and rates of the 
 original Bourne bill and of the amended bill : 
 
 First 
 pound. 
 
 Each ad- 
 ditional 
 pound. 
 
 11 . 
 pounds. 
 
 ORIGINAL BOURNE BILL. 
 
 Rural routes and city delivery 
 
 50-mile zone 
 
 200-mile zone 
 
 500-mile zone 
 
 1,000-mile zone 
 
 2,000-mile zone 
 
 Over 2,000 miles 
 
 AMENDED BOURNE BILL 
 
 Rural route and city delivery 
 
 60-mile zone 
 
 150-mile zone 
 
 300-mile zoDe 
 
 600-mile zone 
 
 1,000-mile zone 
 
 1,400-mile zone 
 
 1.800-mile zone 
 
 Over 1,800 miles 
 
 SO. 05 
 .06 
 
 .07 
 
 .08 
 .11 
 .12 
 .12 
 
 $0.01 
 .02 
 
 .03 
 .04 
 .07 
 .10 
 .12 
 
 .01 
 .03 
 .04 
 .0.5 
 .06 
 .07 
 .09 
 .10 
 .12 
 
 $0.15 
 .26 
 .37 
 .48 
 .81 
 1.12 
 1.32 
 
 .15 
 .35 
 .46 
 .57 
 .68 
 .79 
 1.00 
 1.11 
 1.32 
 
 The views expressed in the chairman's report to the subcommittee are appli- 
 cable in the main to the bill ns amended The proposed rates, although not as 
 low as proposed in the original bill, are in nearly all cases lower than prevail- 
 ing express rates and especially low for the smr.ller-sized packages. They are 
 not as low as the rates which the Interstate Commerce Commission has pro- 
 posed for adoption by the express companies. However, it is yet uncertain 
 whether these proposed express rates will go into effect, for the commission 
 has ordered that a hearing be had on that question on October 9. 
 
 We believe it is advisable to adopt the parcel-post rates proposed in this 
 substitute, and later, when we have had the benefit of experience under these 
 rates and have also observed the practical operation of the rates proposed by 
 the Interstate Commerce Commission for express companies, enact further legis- 
 lation, if found desirable, fixing the charges as low as practicable without going 
 below the cost of operation. 
 
 Although the rates proposed in the Senate committee's substitute are on some 
 weights and zones somewhat higher than the express rates proposed by the 
 Interstate Commerce Commission, it should be remembered that the service 
 rendered by the postal system is much more extensive than the service rendered 
 by the express companies. For instance, the charge made by an express com- 
 pany for a 200-mile haul covers the transportation of a package only from one 
 town to another, without any rural service and with a limited city delivery 
 service. On the other hand, the Government, under this proposed parcel-post 
 
PABCEL POST. 1283 
 
 system, will take a parcel from a farmer's Home ou a rural route, carry it to 
 town, transport it 200 miles over rail routes, and then, if desired, deliver it 
 to another farmer out on another route. In other words, when parcel-post 
 rates are compared with express rates there should also be a comparison of 
 the character of service rendered. We believe that, with all elements duly con- 
 sidered, the parcel-post charges will compare favorably- with express charges, 
 present or proposed. 
 
 For 40 years the American people have been demanding a parcel post, having 
 iu mind an extension of the postal service to cover the handling of small parcels 
 at rates which will enable the purchaser and consumer to deal directly, where 
 so desired. Under a flat-rate system the rate must be so high as to be pro- 
 hibitive of much of the short-distance traffic that should be accommodated. 
 Such a rate has not been contemplated by the public in its discussion of this 
 subject. Neither has the public had in mind Government ownership of express 
 companies nor the absorption of the heavy transportation business handled by 
 express companies at the present time. We have endeavored to provide the 
 service for which there has been a general demand. 
 
 We do not submit this substitute as being perfect in all its provisions, but 
 believe that it is approximately scientific in its plan and that a committee ap- 
 pointed at the beginning of the summer vacation, while a political campaign is 
 in progress, would not, in the four months allotted for the work, add anything 
 of material importance to the information already gathered by a subcommittee 
 of this committee in the investigation which has been conducted during a 
 period of over 11 months, or that such a committee would be able to devise a 
 better plan than that which we respectfully submit. 
 
 Objection is made to this substitute because it does not expressly enumerate 
 articles of farm produce which shall be mailable by parcel post. As will be 
 seen by reference to the language of the measure, this service will provide for 
 the transportation of all commodities nof now carried as first, second, or third 
 class mail, within the weight and size limit and not injurious to the mails or 
 postal employees. 
 
 Other criticisms of the bill are that it provides an 11-pound limit, that it 
 does not include a collect-on-delivery system as to both postage charges and 
 price of the article shipped, that it does not provide for insurance or indemnifi- 
 cation, that the rates are higher than the indicated cost of the service requires, 
 that the administrative branch should be given authority to change rates and 
 zones, that the present compensation of railroads for transportation of the 
 mails is excessive, which excess must be a burden on the parcel-post service. 
 
 As already stated, the committee fully realizes that this substitute is not 
 perfect, and we believe that some of the additional features suggested should 
 he and later will be incorporated in the parcel-post service. We believe, how- 
 ever, that in thus extending the postal service we should not undertake so many 
 innovations as to embarrass the Post Office Department. The matter of com- 
 pensation of the railroads is of great importance, and the Committee on Post 
 Offices and Post Roads has directed the introduction of a bill providing a new 
 basis of payment designed to cover the actual cost to the railroads, with a 
 reasonable profit. This subject is too complicated to dispose of at this session, 
 but it is expected the bill will be before Congress for action at the session be- 
 ginning in December. 
 
 When the parcel-post service has once been inaugurated, details, such as 
 insurance, collect on delivery, reduction of rates, increased weight limit, etc., 
 can be rapidly added as experience indicates the character of new service 
 that should be provided. The Post Office Department is satisfied as to the prac- 
 ticability of the parcel-post system recommended by the committee and will 
 lend every effort to make it a success. 
 
 Advocates of Government ownership of express companies look at the advan- 
 tages that are to be gained by Government operation of these enterprises but 
 overlook some of the adverse circumstances which are of great importance. 
 It is true that under Government operation much of the work of accounting 
 and auditing would be eliminated. On the other hand, the investigations of 
 the Interstate Commerece Commission show that the average compensation of 
 employees of the express companies is from $40 to $50 per month, this com- 
 pensation being paid to clerks and drivers who are required to have sufficient 
 ability to ascertain and quote express rates under the complicated system now 
 in use. This work requires as high order of ability as the mere delivering of 
 letters. I do not hesitate to say that if these employees were taken over by 
 the Post Office Department their compensation would be increased to an average 
 
1284 
 
 PAECBL POST. 
 
 of $90 per month, or approximately double what it is at the present time. 
 There are no exact statistics as to the present number of express employees, 
 but a special report of the Census Bureau in 1907 shows that there were at that 
 time 79,284, of which number, it is estimated by statisticians in the Interstate 
 Commerce Commission. 50,000 were in the exclusive employ of express com- 
 panies and the remainder jointly employed by railroads and express companies. 
 
 The large increase in the expense of operating express companies under 
 Government ownership is mentioned as an incident that should be taken into 
 consideration by those who anticipate a tremendous reduction in rates by 
 Government ownership of the express companies. In view of the fact that 
 practically all service performed for the Government costs more than service 
 performed for private enterprises, it is doubtful whether Government owner- 
 ship would, on the whole, .result in any lower cost of service. In our opinion 
 the best service in point of both efficiency and cost would be obtained through 
 the regulation of express rates by the Interstate Commerce Commission and 
 the correlation of an efficient parcel post 
 
 Whatever a man's views as to the desirability of Government ownership of 
 express companies, there should not be in that respect any reason why he 
 should oppose the extension of our present postal service in the handling of 
 fourth-class matter The total routes covered by the express companies aggre- 
 gate approximately 258,000 miles, while the mail routes cover 435,000 miles, 
 not including over 1,00,000 miles of rural routes If the express companies 
 were taken over to-day and their operation continued under the present 
 organization until the system could be amalgamated with the Post Office 
 Department, there would still be 177,000 miles of post routes without the 
 parcel service. 
 
 We believe that a perfect parcel -post system must be the result of develop- 
 ment determined by experience resultant from general adoption, and that it 
 is highly important to establish at once a foundation for such a system by 
 enacting at this session of Congress a parcel-post provision based upon rates 
 varying with distance and sufficiently high to be safely self-supporting 
 
 For purposes of comparison there is herein presented a table giving present 
 and proposed express rates from New York City and the parcel-post rates under 
 the original Bourne bill and the amended Bourne bill. It should be explained 
 that express rates out of New Tork are the lowest in the country and that 
 express rates, present or proposed, from any small city, particularly in the 
 West, are very materially higher. This should be kept in mind when making 
 comparisons. 
 
 Present and proposed rates from, New York City and the parcel-post rates under 
 the original Bourne Mil and the amended Bourne bill. 
 
 50 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 100 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 160 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 50.25 
 .21 
 .06 
 .05 
 
 .25 
 .21 
 .07 
 .06 
 
 .25 
 
 .21 
 .07 
 .06 
 
 o P. 
 55 
 
 $0.25 
 
 .21 
 .08 
 .OS 
 
 .30 
 .22 
 .10 
 .10 
 
 .30 
 .22 
 
 .10 
 .10 
 
 o ft 
 
 55 
 
 $0.25 
 .21 
 .10 
 .11 
 
 .30 
 .22 
 .13 
 .14 
 
 .30 
 .23 
 .13 
 .14 
 
 o ft 
 
 55 
 
 $0.30 
 
 .22 
 .12 
 .14 
 
 .30 
 .23 
 .16 
 .18 
 
 .35 
 .23 
 .16 
 .18 
 
 o ft 
 
 SO. 30 
 
 .22 
 .14 
 .17 
 
 .35 
 .23 
 .19 
 
 .22 
 
 .40 
 .24 
 
 .19 
 
 .22 
 
 $0.35 
 .22 
 
 .16 
 .20 
 
 .35 
 .24 
 .22 
 .20 
 
 .40 
 .25 
 .22 
 .26 
 
 *■ s 
 
 o ft 
 
 55 
 
 $0.35 
 
 .23 
 .18 
 
 .23 
 
 .35 
 .24 
 .25 
 .30 
 
 .40 
 .26 
 .25 
 .30 
 
 £■3 
 
 !l 
 
 O P. 
 
 55 
 
 SO. 35 
 .23 
 
 .20 
 .26 
 
 .40 
 .25 
 .28 
 .34 
 
 .45 
 .26 
 .28 
 .34 
 
 o ft 
 
 $0.35 
 .24 
 .22 
 .29 
 
 .40 
 .25 
 .31 
 .38 
 
 .45 
 .26 
 .31 
 
 oj'd 
 
 o ft 
 
 55 
 
 $0.35 
 
 .24 
 .24 
 .32 
 
 .40 
 .26 
 .34 
 .42 
 
 .45 
 .27 
 .34 
 .42 
 
 o ft 
 
 55 
 
 1.35 
 .24 
 
 .40 
 .26 
 .37 
 .46 
 
 • 54 
 .27 
 .38 
 .46 
 
PAEGEL POST. 
 
 1285 
 
 Present and proposed rates from New York City and the pareel-post rates under 
 the original Bourne Mil and the amended Bourne bill — Continued. 
 
 OJT3 
 
 SB 
 
 o 
 
 £•3 
 
 o P. 
 
 CO 
 
 I! 
 
 O Pi 
 
 $■§ 
 
 o P. 
 
 I! 
 
 o ft 
 
 o ft 
 
 O Pi 
 
 6 P. 
 
 2; 
 
 o Pi 
 
 55 
 
 5 P. 
 
 55 
 
 *■= s 
 
 O Pi 
 
 55 
 
 200 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 250 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 300 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 350 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 400 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 . New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 300 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 '600 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 650 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel- post 
 
 bill 
 
 750 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 $0. 
 
 $0.30 
 
 .22 
 .10 
 .12 
 
 .30 
 .22 
 .12 
 .12 
 
 .30 
 .22 
 .12 
 
 .12 
 
 .30 
 .22 
 .12 
 .14 
 
 .30 
 .23 
 .12 
 .14 
 
 .30 
 .23 
 .12 
 .14 
 
 .35 
 
 .23 
 .18 
 .14 
 
 .35 
 .24 
 .18 
 .16 
 
 .35 
 .24 
 
 10.35 
 
 .23 
 .13 
 .17 
 
 .35 
 .23 
 .16 
 .17 
 
 .35 
 .23 
 .16 
 .17 
 
 .35 
 .24 
 .16 
 .20 
 
 .35 
 .24 
 .16 
 .20 
 
 .40 
 .24 
 .16 
 .20 
 
 .45 
 .25 
 .25 
 .20 
 
 .45 
 .25 
 .25 
 .23 
 
 .45 
 
 .26 
 
 $0.35 
 .23 
 .16 
 
 .22 
 
 .35 
 .24 
 .20 
 .22 
 
 .40 
 .24 
 .20 
 .22 
 
 .40 
 .25 
 .20 
 .26 
 
 .40 
 .25 
 .20 
 .26 
 
 .45 
 .26 
 .20 
 .26 
 
 .50 
 .27 
 .32 
 .26 
 
 .55 
 .27 
 .32 
 .30 
 
 .55 
 .28 
 
 $0.40 
 .24 
 .19 
 
 .27 
 
 .40 
 .25 
 .24 
 
 .27 
 
 .45 
 .25 
 .24 
 .27 
 
 .45 
 .26 
 .24 
 .32 
 
 .45 
 .26 
 .24 
 .32 
 
 .50 
 .27 
 .24 
 .32 
 
 .55 
 .28 
 .39 
 .32 
 
 .60 
 .29 
 .39 
 .37 
 
 .60 
 .30 
 
 $0.45 
 
 .25 
 .22 
 .32 
 
 .45 
 .26 
 .28 
 .32 
 
 .50 
 .26 
 .28 
 .32 
 
 .50 
 .27 
 .28 
 .38 
 
 .50 
 .28 
 .28 
 .38 
 
 .55 
 .29 
 .28 
 .38 
 
 .60 
 .30 
 .46 
 .38 
 
 .70 
 .31 
 .46 
 .44 
 
 .70 
 .32 
 
 $0.45 
 .26 
 
 .25 
 .37 
 
 .45 
 .27 
 .32 
 .37 
 
 .50 
 .27 
 .32 
 .37 
 
 .50 
 .28 
 .32 
 .44 
 
 .55 
 .29 
 .32 
 .44 
 
 .55 
 .30 
 .32 
 .44 
 
 .60 
 .32 
 .53 
 .44 
 
 .70 
 .33 
 .53 
 .51 
 
 .70 
 .34 
 
 $0.50 
 
 .26 
 .28 
 .42 
 
 .50 
 .28 
 .36 
 .42 
 
 .55 
 .28 
 .36 
 .42 
 
 .55 
 .30 
 .36 
 .50 
 
 $0.50 
 
 .27 
 .31 
 .47 
 
 .50 
 .29 
 .40 
 .47 
 
 .55 
 .29 
 
 .50 
 
 .60 
 .32 
 .36 
 .50 
 
 .70 
 .34 
 .60 
 .50 
 
 .75 
 .34 
 .60 
 .58 
 
 .75 
 .36 
 
 $0.50 
 
 .28 
 .34 
 .52 
 
 .50 
 .29 
 .44 
 .52 
 
 .55 
 .30 
 
 $0.55 
 
 .29 
 .37 
 .57 
 
 .40 
 
 .44 
 
 .47 
 
 .52 
 
 .55 
 
 .55 
 
 .32 
 
 .32 
 
 .40 
 
 .44 
 
 .56 
 
 -.62 
 
 .60 
 
 .60 
 
 .32 
 
 .33 
 
 .40 
 
 .44 
 
 .56 
 
 .62 
 
 .60 
 
 .60 
 
 .33 
 
 .35 
 
 .40 
 
 .44 
 
 .56 
 
 .62 
 
 .70 
 
 .70 
 
 .35 
 
 .37 
 
 .67 
 
 .74 
 
 .56 
 
 .62 
 
 .75 
 
 .75 
 
 .36 
 
 .38 
 
 .67 
 
 .74 
 
 .65 
 
 .72 
 
 .75 
 
 .75 
 
 .38 
 
 1 .39 
 
1286 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
 J'rcscnt and proposed rates from New Yorlc Gity and the parcel-post rates undler 
 the original Bourne Mil and the amended Bourne bill — Continued. 
 
 H 
 
 la 
 
 5 P. 
 
 S§ 
 
 o ft 
 
 S3 
 
 61 
 
 5 a 
 
 3 P. 
 
 a a 
 
 S 
 
 o ft 
 
 3 
 
 o ft 
 
 o ft 
 
 12! 
 
 o 3 
 
 4j 5 
 
 o ft 
 
 is 
 
 750 miles— Continued. 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 900 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bfil 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 biU 
 
 1,000 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York i 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 1,150 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New Ynrk 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 1,200 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 1,250 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 NewYork 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 1,500 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 1,600 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 1,700 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 .11 
 .09 
 
 .25 
 .23 
 .11 
 
 .09 
 
 .25 
 .23 
 .12 
 .10 
 
 .30 
 .23 
 .12 
 .10 
 
 .30 
 .24 
 .12 
 .10 
 
 .30 
 .25 
 .12 
 .11 
 
 .30 
 .25 
 .12 
 .11 
 
 .30 
 
 .25 
 .12 
 .11 
 
 SO. 18 
 .10 
 
 .35 
 .24 
 
 $0.25 
 
 .23 
 
 .45 
 .27 
 
 .IS 
 .16 
 
 .25 
 .23 
 
 .35 
 
 .45 
 
 .25 
 
 .27 
 
 .18 
 
 .25 
 
 .16 
 
 .23 
 
 .35 
 
 .45 
 
 .25 
 
 .28 
 
 .22 
 
 .32 
 
 .19 
 
 .28 
 
 .35 
 
 .45 
 
 .26 
 
 .29 
 
 .22 
 
 .32 
 
 .19 
 
 .28 
 
 .35 
 
 .45 
 
 .26 
 
 .29 
 
 .22 
 
 .32 
 
 .19 
 
 .28 
 
 .35 
 
 .45 
 
 .28 
 
 .32 
 
 .22 
 
 .32 
 
 .21 
 
 .31 
 
 .35 
 
 .45 
 
 .29 
 
 .33 
 
 .22 
 
 .32 
 
 .21 
 
 .31 
 
 .35 
 
 .45 
 
 .30 
 
 .34 
 
 .22 
 
 .32 
 
 .21 
 
 .31 
 
 $0.32 
 
 .30 
 
 .55 
 .29 
 .32 
 
 $0.39 
 
 .37 
 
 .60 
 .31 
 .39 
 .37 
 
 .00 
 
 .70 
 
 .29 
 
 .32 
 
 .32 
 
 .39 
 
 .30 
 
 .37 
 
 .60- 
 
 .70 
 
 .31 
 
 .34 
 
 .42 
 
 .52 
 
 .37 
 
 .46 
 
 .60 
 
 .75 
 
 .32 
 
 .34 
 
 .42 
 
 .52 
 
 .37 
 
 .46 
 
 .60 
 
 .75 
 
 .32 
 
 .35 
 
 .42 
 
 .52 
 
 .37 
 
 .46 
 
 .60 
 
 .75 
 
 .36 
 
 .40 
 
 .42 
 
 .52 
 
 .41 
 
 -.51 
 
 .60 
 
 .80 
 
 .38 
 
 .42 
 
 .42 
 
 .52 
 
 .41 
 
 .51 
 
 .60 
 
 .80 
 
 .39 
 
 .44 
 
 .42 
 
 .52 
 
 .41 
 
 .51 
 
 $0.46 
 .44 
 
 .70 
 .33 
 .46 
 .44 
 
 .80 
 .34 
 .46 
 
 .44 
 
 .85 
 .36 
 .62 
 .55 
 
 .90 
 .37 
 .62 
 .55 
 
 .90 
 .39 
 .62 
 .55 
 
 .90 
 .44 
 .62 
 .61 
 
 .90 
 .47 
 
 .62 
 .61 
 
 .90 
 
 .49 
 .62 
 .61 
 
 $0.53 
 .51 
 
 .70 
 .35 
 .53 
 .51 
 
 .80 
 .36 
 .53 
 .51 
 
 .85 
 
 .39 
 .72 
 .64 
 
 .90 
 .40 
 .72 
 .64 
 
 .90 
 .42 
 .72 
 
 .64 
 
 1.00 
 .48 
 .72 
 .71 
 
 1.00 
 .51 
 .72 
 .71 
 
 1.00 
 .54 
 .72 
 .71 
 
 $0.60 
 
 .58 
 
 .75 
 .38 
 .60 
 .58 
 
 .60 
 
 .58 
 
 1.00 
 .42 
 .82 
 
 .73 
 
 1.00 
 
 .43 
 .82 
 .73 
 
 1.00 
 .45 
 .82 
 .73 
 
 1.15 
 
 .52 
 .82 
 .81 
 
 1.20 
 .56 
 .82 
 
 .81 
 
 1.20 
 .58 
 .82 
 .81 
 
 $0.67 
 
 .65 
 
 .75 
 .40 
 .67 
 .65 
 
 .90 
 .41 
 .67 
 
 .65 
 
 1.00 
 .45 
 .92 
 .82 
 
 1.00 
 
 .46 
 .92 
 .82 
 
 1.00 
 .48 
 .92 
 .82 
 
 1.15 
 .56 
 .92 
 .91 
 
 1.20 
 .60 
 .92 
 .91 
 
 1.20 
 .63 
 .92 
 .91 
 
 $0.74 
 
 .72 
 
 .75 
 .42 
 .74 
 .72 
 
 .74 
 .72 
 
 1.00 
 .47 
 
 1.02 
 .91 
 
 1.00 
 .49 
 
 1.02 
 .91 
 
 1.00 
 .51 
 
 1.02 
 .91 
 
 1.15 
 .60 
 1.02 
 1.01 
 
 1.20 
 .64 
 1.02 
 1.01 
 
 1.20 
 .68 
 1.02 
 1.01 
 
PARCEL POST. 
 
 1287 
 
 Present and proposed rates from New York City and the parcel-post rates under 
 the original Bourne Mil and the amended Bourne Mil — Continued. 
 
 O Pi 
 
 SB 
 
 n 
 
 © ft 
 
 11 
 
 o P< 
 
 la 
 
 O ft 
 
 o ft 
 
 81 
 
 +s ° 
 O ft 
 
 o ft 
 
 o Pi 
 
 1,800 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York $0. 30 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 12 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 12 
 
 1,850 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 NewYork 30 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 NewYork 26 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 12 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 12 
 
 1,900 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 26 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 12 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 12 
 
 2,000 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 NewYork 27 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 12 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 12 
 
 2,100 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 NewYork 27 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 12 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 12 
 
 2,150 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 NewYork 27 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 12 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 12 
 
 2,300 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 NewYork 30 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 NewYork 28 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bSl 12 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 12 
 
 2,400 miles: 
 
 Present expre^ rate from 
 
 NewYork. 30 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 NewYork 28 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 12 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill....' 12 
 
 2,500 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 NewYork 30 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 58773— vol 5—12— 
 
 $0.35 
 .30 
 
 .22 
 .24 
 
 .35 
 .31 
 .22 
 .24 
 
 .35 
 .31 
 .22 
 .24 
 
 .35 
 .32 
 .22 
 .24 
 
 .35 
 .33 
 .24 
 .24 
 
 .35 
 .33 
 
 .24 
 .24 
 
 .35 
 .34 
 .24 
 
 .24 
 
 .35 
 .35 
 .24 
 .24 
 
 .35 
 .36 
 
 $0.45 
 .35 
 .32 
 .36 
 
 .45 
 .36 
 .32 
 .36 
 
 .4 
 .37 
 .32 
 .36 
 
 .45 
 
 $0.60 
 .41 
 .42 
 .48 
 
 .60 
 .42 
 .42 
 .48 
 
 .60 
 .43 
 .42 
 
 SO. I 
 
 .60 
 .46 
 .48 
 .48 
 
 .60 
 .46 
 
 .60 
 
 .46 
 .52 
 .60 
 
 .80 
 .47 
 .52 
 .60 
 
 .80 
 ,48 
 .52 
 .60 
 
 .80 
 .50 
 .52 
 .60 
 
 .80 
 .52 
 .60 
 .60 
 
 .80 
 .53 
 .60 
 .60 
 
 .SO 
 .56 
 .60 
 .60 
 
 .80 
 .57 
 .60 
 .60 
 
 .51 .59 
 
 $0.90 
 
 .51 
 .62 
 .72 
 
 .90 
 .53 
 
 $1.00 
 .56 
 
 .72 
 .84 
 
 1.00 
 .58 
 .72 
 .84 
 
 1.00 
 
 .60 
 .72 
 .84 
 
 1.00 
 .62 
 .72 
 .84 
 
 1.00 
 
 .65 
 .84 
 .84 
 
 1.00 
 .66 
 .84 
 .84 
 
 1.00 
 
 .70 
 .84 
 .84 
 
 1.00 
 
 .72 
 .84 
 .84 
 
 1.00 
 
 ,75 
 
 $1.20 
 .61 
 
 $1.25 
 
 .66 
 .92 
 1.08 
 
 1.20 1.25 
 64 
 
 .92 
 1.08 
 
 1.25 
 .71 
 .92 
 
 1.08 
 
 1.35 
 
 .74 
 
 .92 
 
 1.08 
 
 1.35 
 
 .78 
 1.0S 
 1.08 
 
 1.35 
 
 .79 
 1.08 
 1.08 
 
 1.35 
 
 .84 
 
 1.08 
 
 1.08 
 
 1.35 
 
 .87 
 
 1.08 
 
 1.08 
 
 1.35 
 .91 
 
 1.20 
 
 .65 
 .82 
 .96 
 
 1.20 
 .68 
 .82 
 .96 
 
 1.20 
 .72 
 
 1.20 
 .73 
 
 1.20 
 
 .77 
 
 .96 
 
 .96 
 .96 
 
 1.20 
 
 $1.25 
 .71 
 
 1.02 
 1.20 
 
 1.25 
 
 .74 
 
 1.02 
 
 1.20 
 
 1.25 
 .76 
 1.02 
 1.20 
 
 1.40 
 
 .80 
 
 1.02 
 
 1.20 
 
 1.40 
 
 .84 
 1.20 
 1.20 
 
 1.40 
 
 .86 
 
 1.20 
 
 1.20 
 
 1.40 
 .91 
 1.20 
 1.20 
 
 1.40 
 
 .95 
 
 1.20 
 
 1.20 
 
 1.40 
 
1288 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
 Present and proposed, rates from New York City and the parcel-post rates under 
 the original Bourne bill and the amended Bourne Mil — Continued. 
 
 n 
 
 6 ft 
 
 o ft 
 
 55 
 
 *• s 
 
 O Pi 
 
 5? 
 
 O Pi 
 
 61 
 
 o ft 
 J5 
 
 11 
 
 C Pi 
 
 C Pi 
 
 O Pi 
 
 2,500 miles— Continued. 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill :. 
 
 2,600 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate Jrom 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 2,750 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 2,850 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill . 
 
 2,950 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 3,000 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 3,200 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 , bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 3,300 miles: 
 
 Present express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Proposed express rate from 
 
 New York 
 
 Original Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 Amended Bourne parcel-post 
 
 bill 
 
 SO. 12 
 
 .12 
 
 .30 
 .29 
 .12 
 .12 
 
 .30 
 .29 
 .12 
 .12 
 
 .30 
 .29 
 .12 
 .12 
 
 .30 
 .30 
 .12 
 .12 
 
 $0.24 
 .24 
 
 .35 
 .36 
 
 .24 
 .24 
 
 .35 
 .37 
 .24 
 .24 
 
 .35 
 .38 
 .24 
 .24 
 
 .35 
 .39 
 
 .24 
 .24 
 
 .35 
 
 .39 
 .24 
 .24 
 
 .35 
 .40 
 
 .24 
 .24 
 
 .35 
 .41 
 
 .24 
 .24 
 
 $0.36 
 
 .36 
 
 .45 
 .45 
 .36 
 .36 
 
 .45 
 .46 
 .36 
 .36 
 
 .45 
 .47 
 .36 
 .36 
 
 .36 
 .36 
 
 .45 
 .49 
 .36 
 .36 
 
 .45 
 .51 
 .36 
 
 .36 
 
 .45 
 .52 
 
 $0.48 
 
 48 
 
 $0.60 
 
 $0.72 
 
 72 
 
 .90 
 
 $0.84 
 
 .84 
 
 1.05 
 
 .77 
 .84 
 .84 
 
 1.05 
 .81 
 
 .84 
 .84 
 
 1.05 
 
 .83 
 .84 
 .84 
 
 1.05 
 .85 
 
 .84 
 .84 
 
 1.05 
 
 .87 
 .84 
 .84 
 
 1.05 
 .91 
 .84 
 .84 
 
 1.05 
 
 .94 
 .84 
 
 $0.96 
 
 1.20 
 
 .85 
 
 1.20 
 
 .96 
 
 1.20 
 
 .92 
 .96 
 .96 
 
 1.20 
 .95 
 .96 
 
 .96 
 
 1.20 
 ■.96 
 .96 
 
 .96 
 
 1.20 
 1.02 
 
 1.20 
 1.04 
 
 .96 
 
 $1.08 
 1.08 
 
 1.35 
 
 .94 
 1.08 
 1.08 
 
 1.35 
 .98 
 1.08 
 1.08 
 
 1.35 
 1.01 
 1.08 
 1.08 
 
 1.35 
 1.04 
 1.08 
 1.08 
 
 1.35 
 1.06 
 1.08 
 1.08 
 
 1.35 
 1.12 
 1.08 
 1.08 
 
 1.35 
 1.15 
 1.08 
 
 $1.20 
 1.20 
 
 1.50 
 1.02 
 1.20 
 1.20 
 
 1.50 
 1.06 
 1.20 
 
 1.20 
 
 1.50 
 1.09 
 1.20 
 1.20 
 
 1.50 
 1.13 
 1.20 
 1.20 
 
 1.50 
 1.15 
 1.20 
 1.20 
 
 1.50 
 1.22 
 1.20 
 
 1.20 
 
 1.50 
 1.25 
 1.20 
 1.20 
 
 PABCEL-POST LAW. 
 
 The parcel-post provision as recommended by the committee was 
 adopted by the Senate as a substitute for the House provision. In 
 
PARCEL POST*' 1289 
 
 "•, \ 
 conference this was amended so that as finally enacted the parcel-post 
 law reads as follows: A 
 
 Sec. 8. That hereafter fourth-class mail matter shall embra'ce all other matter, 
 Including farm and factory products, not now embracj'd by law in either the 
 first, second, or third class, not exceeding eleven pounds if> weight, nor greater 
 in size than seventy-two inches in length and girth combined, nor in form or 
 kind likely to injure the person of any postal employe! or damage the mail 
 equipment or other mail matter and not of a character perishable within a 
 period reasonably required for transportation ; and delivery. 
 
 That for the purposes' of this section the United States and its several. Ter- 
 ritories and possessions, excepting the Philippine rslabds, shall be divided 'into 
 units of area thirty minutes square, identical with a quarter of the area formed 
 by the intersecting parallels of latitude and meridiansjof longitude, represented 
 on appropriate postal maps or plans, and such units of area shall be the basis of 
 eight postal zones, as follows: 
 
 The first zone shall include all territory within such quadrangle, in conjunc- 
 tion with every contiguous quadrangle, representing an area having a mean 
 radial distance of approximately fifty miles from the center of any given unit 
 of area. 
 
 The second zone shall include all units of area outside the first zone lying 
 in whole or in part within a radius of approximately one hundred and fifty 
 miles from the center of a given unit of area. 
 
 The third zone shall include all units of area outside the second zone lying in 
 whole or in part within a radius of approximately three hundred miles from the 
 center of a given unit of area. 
 
 The fourth zone shall include all units of area outside the third zone lying in 
 whole or in part within a radius of approximately six hundred miles from the 
 center of a given unit of area. 
 
 The fifth zone shall include all units of area outside the fourth zone lying 
 in whole or in part within a radius of approximately one thousand miles from 
 the center of a given unit of area. 
 
 The sixth zone shall include all units of area outside the fifth zone lying in 
 whole or in part within a radius of approximately one thousand four hundred 
 miles from the center of a given unit of area. 
 
 The seventh zone shall include all units of area outside the sixth zone lying 
 in whole or in part within a radius of approximately one thousand eight hun- 
 dred miles from the center of a given unit of area. 
 
 The eighth zone shall include all units of area outside the seventh zone. 
 
 That the rate of postage on fourth-class matter weighing not more than four 
 ounces shall be one cent for each ounce or fraction of an ounce; and on such 
 matter in excess of four ounces in weight the rate shall be by the pound, as 
 hereinafter provided, the postage in all cases to be prepaid by distinctive postage 
 stamps affixed. 
 
 That except as provided in the next preceding paragraph postage on matter 
 of the fourth class shall be prepaid at the following rates : 
 
 On all matter mailed at the post office from which a rural route starts, for 
 delivery on such route, or mailed at any point on such route for delivery at 
 any other point thereon, or at the office from which the route starts, or on any 
 rural route starting therefrom, and on all matter mailed at a city carrier office, 
 or at any point within its delivery limits, for delivery by carriers from that 
 office, or at any office for local delivery, five cents for the first pound or frac- 
 tion of a pound and one cent for each additional pound or fraction of a pound. 
 
 For delivery within the first zone, except as provided in the next preceding 
 paragraph, five cents for the first pound or fraction of a pound and three cents 
 for each additional pound or fraction of a pound. 
 
 For delivery within the second zone, six cents for the first pound or fraction 
 of a pound and four cents for each additional pound or fraction of a pound. 
 
 For delivery within the third zone, seven cents for the first pound or fraction 
 of a pound and five cents for each additional pound or fraction of a pound. 
 
 For delivery within the fourth zone, eight cents for the first pound or fraction 
 of a pound and six cents for each additional pound or fraction of a pound. 
 
 For delivery within the fifth zone, nine cents for the first pound or fraction 
 of a pound and seven cents for each additional pound or fraction of a pound. 
 
 For delivery within the sixth zone, ten cents for the first pound or fraction 
 of a pound and nine cents for each additional pound or fraction of a pound. 
 
 For delivery within the seventh zone, eleven cents for the first pound or frac- 
 tion of a pound and ten cents for each additional pound or fraction of a pound. 
 
1290 
 
 PABCEt POST. 
 
 For delivery within the eighth zone and between the Philippine Islands and 
 any portion of the United States, including the District of Columbia and the 
 several Territories and '.possessions, twelve cents for the first pound or -fraction 
 of a pound and twelve cents fqr each additional pound or fraction of a pound. 
 
 That the Postmas'ter^General shall provide such special equipment, maps, 
 stamps, directories, and - "printed instructions as may be necessary for the ad- 
 ministration of this lection ; and for the purposes of this section, and to supple- 
 ment existing approrraatiflms, including the hiring of teams and drivers, there 
 is hereby appropriated! oup of any money in the Treasury not otherwise appro- 
 priated, the sum of sevten frundred and fifty thousand dollars. 
 
 The classification of ar^cles mailable as well as the weight limit, the rates 
 "of postage, zone or zones„.and other conditions of mailability under this act, if 
 the Postmaster General shall find on experience that they or any of them are 
 such as to prevent tjie shipment of articles desirable, or to permanently render 
 the cost of the service greater than the receipts of the revenue therefrom, he is. 
 hereby authorized, subject to the consent of the Interstate Commerce Commis- 
 sion after investigation, to re-form from time to time such classification, weight 
 limit, rates, zone or zones or conditions, or either, in order to promote the serv- 
 ice to the public or to insure the receipt of revenue from such service adequate 
 to pay the cost thereof. 
 
 The Postmaster General shall make provision by regulation for the indemni- 
 fication of shippers, for shipment injured or lost, by insurance or otherwise, and, 
 when desired, for the collection on delivery of the postage and price of the 
 article shipped, fixing such charges as may be necessary to pay the cost of 
 such additional services. 
 
 The Postmaster General may readjust the compensation of star route and 
 screen wagon contractors if it should appear that as a result of the pircel-post 
 system the weight of the mails handled by them has been materially increased., 
 Before such readjustment, however, a detailed account must be kept as to the- 
 amount of business handled by such star icute or screen wagon contractors 
 before and after this section becomes effective for such a period as to cleariy 
 demonstrate the amount of the increase and that such increase in the weight; 
 of the maiis was due to the adoption of the pn reel-post system. 
 
 That the establishment of zones and postage rates of this section shall go- 
 into effect January first, nineteen hundred and thirteen. 
 
 That this act shall not in any way affect the postage rate on seeds, cuttings,, 
 bulbs, roots, scions, and plants, as fixed by section 482 of the Postal Laws and 
 Regulations. 
 
 That for the purpose of a further inquiry into the subject of the general par- 
 cel post and all related subjects a joint committee of six persons (Members of 
 Congress), three of whom shall be appointed by the President of the Senate,, 
 and three by the Speaker of the House of Representatives, is constituted, with, 
 full power to appoint clerks, stenographers and experts to assist them in this; 
 work. That the Postmaster General and the Interstate Commerce Commission 
 shall furnish such data and otherwise render such assistance to the said com- 
 mittee as may be desired or available. For the purpose of defraying the 
 expenses of this committee the sum of twenty-five thousand dollars is hereby 
 appropriated out of the moneys in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated. 
 The committee shall report fully to Congress at the earliest date possible. 
 
 That all laws and parts of laws in conflict with the provisions of this section, 
 are hereby repealed. 
 
 SUMMASY OF BATES. 
 
 Flat rate of 1 cent per ounce up to 4 ounces regardless of distance. 
 Above 4 ounces, rates are by the pound or fraction thereof, and varying with 
 distance as follows: 
 
 
 First pound. 
 
 ; Each addi- 
 
 ' tioual pound. 
 
 , 11 pounds. 
 
 
 SO. OS 
 .05 
 .06 
 1 .07 
 .08 
 .09 
 .10 
 .11 
 .12 
 
 $0.01 
 .03 
 .04: 
 .03 
 .06 
 .07' 
 .09' 
 .10 
 .12. 
 
 $0.15 
 .35 
 .46 
 .57 
 . .68 
 .79' 
 1.00 
 llll 
 1.SS 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Over 1,800 miles 
 
 
 o