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Cornell University Library 
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 Report; 
 
 3 1924 022 803 476 
 
Cornell University 
 Library 
 
 The original of this book is in 
 the Cornell University Library. 
 
 There are no known copyright restrictions in 
 the United States on the use of the text. 
 
 http://www.archive.org/cletails/cu31924022803476 
 
RE P ORO^ 
 
 OF THE 
 
 SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE SENATE 
 
 APPOINTED TO 
 
 Investigate tlie Corrupt Negotiations Charged by the 
 
 "New York Press" in Relation to the Bill Pro- 
 
 Yiding for an Increase of Salaries of 
 
 the Members of the New York 
 
 City Fire Department. 
 
 TRANSMITTED TO THE LEGISLATURE MAY 16, 1895. 
 
 ALBANY: 
 
 JAMES B. LYON, STATE PRENTEK. 
 1895. 
 
State of New York. 
 
 E'o. 56. 
 
 IN SENATK, 
 
 Mat 16, 1896. 
 
 REPORT 
 
 OF THE 
 
 SPECIAL COMMITfnEE OF THE SENATE APPOINTED 
 TO ESrVESnaATE THE COEETJPT NEGOTIATIONS 
 CHAEGED BY THE NEW TOEK PEESS IN EELATION 
 TO THE Bllli PEOVIDING FOE THE SALAEDES OF THE 
 MEMBEES OF THE NEW YOEK CITT FIRE DEPAET- 
 MENT. 
 
 To the Senate : 
 
 The special cKMnmMee of the Senialte, appointed! pairsuHiit to 
 resolution adopted om the 18thl day of Atprii, 1895, of wMcih the 
 foUorwimg iis a copy: 
 
 "Whereas, It is chiargedJ by the New York! Pres® of this datte, 
 that a dOTTuption fund was recently raised iia oa^er to inflnetnioe 
 certain Stenartwrs i!n voting for a, bill to iniapease the salairy of the 
 memtens of the New York: city flj^e department, recently before 
 this boidy, and thait corrupt negoitilatSons were entered into in 
 behalf of said SenatoiPs to obtain thieir TOites in favor of said bill ; 
 
 ''Eesolved, That a special committee of five Senaitiors^ tot be 
 appoftnted by the President of the Senlattiei, be and itl herebiy is 
 authorized and emipiawered to; investilg'alte the aforesaald 
 
charges and publloatioinis of sudhi oormpit megoitflartioinis, 
 aad tliat siaiid oomlmittee btei and it iteireiby iisi authioirized> 
 and empicyweired to send for persona and papierisi, and to 
 sit and examinie witnesses in tlh!e dty of Mhasaj or 
 elsewliiere ita, tSie Staite M referenioe to said diargeis; and, for 
 thiat purpose, thie said oommlttee is hereby authorized and 
 empowered to emplo|y counisel, and a eifceinioig!Paplh.eir during said 
 iixTestiigation, and thialt aaSId cioipjn)i*tee report toi tMs body with 
 its uecioiiimilenidattSonH on, or before the Ist d^y of May, 1893," 
 riespecltfully report aia follows: 
 
 1. Said oonunittee beigian iUs iniYesitigaitiion iln the city of New 
 York on the 19thi day of April, 1895, and continued the eiaimie 
 in said dty on the 20ith', 26th amd 27th days of April, and the 
 3d and 4th days of May, and in the city of Albany, K. Y., oh the 
 7th, 8th and 9th days of May, 1895. Alt the opening of sand 
 inrt'e&tigaitilon, Hon. Lemuel Eli Qunlgg, editor of the "New York 
 Press," appeared before the committee in person, and by Elihiu 
 Eoot, Esq., his counsel. Seniaitor Raines appearedl Dm persion, and 
 by Hon. Greorge Eaines, his counBel, and Senlattora Ooggeshiall and 
 Eobertsion appeared in person. No dhiange was mlaidle in appear- 
 aniees pendjing the iravieisita.gaittiioiiii, except that after Mr. Bioo* hiad 
 produced affid lexamined a number of witnesses on behalf of Mis 
 client to justify the praibliaatiloni and had crosis-esamined certain 
 witnesses called out of theilr oirder by Mr. Eiaiines, and had oliosied 
 has diemfs levidenicie, he declilned further to examine the wit- 
 nesses producied by the accused SenHtors except by directilon of 
 the committee. In order that the iniTesitigationi shtould ble as 
 thorough and far-reaidhihg ais possible the committee thereupon 
 directed Mr. Eoot to ppoiaeed' with such examiniaitiJon' and from 
 that time until the cloiae of the investigajtiiion! he acted in the 
 capacity of oounis©! to the ciomniiittee. Thie oomtoittee did not 
 limit the evidenice by the rules regulating the admission of eri- 
 denioe in ai court of justice, but allowed the wildest latitude, anid 
 admitted any evidenoe which would serve to throw light upon 
 the subject of this inquiry. 
 
2. The publication referred to in said resolution was cotutaJlned 
 in the New York Press of April 18, 1895, and is as follows: 
 
 " Boodle, $45,000. — A LegisHative SoandiaJ wbidh must be Infrestii- 
 gated. — iUremeni's BUI Strike. — Mercenaries Demand a 
 CSorruption Fund. — Money Acttuially EaiiaedL — Btobertiaon, 
 CJogge^ball and Eaines were the Senators Menitiioned. Loiu 
 Payn to Handle Things. — Negotilaitions with Promineut Pire- 
 mem. — Efforts to Sidetrack the Payey Bill. — Only Powerful 
 Influence was Able to Make the Senators 'Let go.' — The 
 Fire Departmenit Should go to Work and Ask siomie Questions. 
 
 " The next Leaow inTeatigatilon should be of the State Senate 
 ittself. There aiie membens of that body whiose motive in their 
 ajttitude toward certain publiio measures need to be iuqudred initio. 
 The Press presents, to-day, certain facts in oonmeotiion with the 
 history of the Mremen^s Salary Bill, wMch point unerringly at 
 corrupt negotiatioiiis, if not between Senatoirs' and the representa- 
 tive of the officers' associatilom of the fire department, at 
 leajst ini behalf of Semajtars^ through one of the most notodoiuis 
 political lobbyists. These faiots siiiiggesit, if they do noiti wholly 
 prove, that the meaisure introduced by Senator Biobertson as a 
 substitute for the Pavey Salary Bill wais a strike for money; that 
 it was so understood by the officers of the fire departlraent; that 
 it resulted from negotiations in which ex-Marshal Louis F. 
 Payn was a ciomspicuons figure; ilhat the terms of the negiottia- 
 tion required the raising among the firemen of this city of 
 $45,000, to be disitribtated among the Senators who were alleged 
 to be iln the deal ; that if they were not in the deal they were made 
 the tools of a most bold anid shameful plot for corraptiom; that 
 airrangements to raise the money were maide by, and pressed 
 upon the officers' assoiciatioin, whose proportioni of the $45,000 
 was $15,000; that of this $15,000, between $7,000 and $10,000 
 was actually raised, and that the Senators whose names were 
 mentioned, among the firemen, as the men who required to be 
 taken care of were Bobertson, of Westdhester; Raines, of 
 Ontario; and Coggesibiall, of Oneida. 
 
"HOW THE SAI4ABY BILL WAS MADE. 
 " The pay of the memberia of the fire departmem* of the gnade 
 of fireman, under existing law, is $1,000 a year for first-year 
 men, $1,100 ai year for secomd-yeaip men, amd |1,200 a year for 
 third-year men, which is the maxiimjum salary for, firemen. Until 
 one yea/r ago these sums were also paid to the membersi of the 
 police force, but the last Legislatmre, unider ciroumstamces th'at 
 cansed a good of scandal, raised the salaries of iK>licemen to 
 $1,400. Tlhle members of the fire department thought themselves 
 as muJch entitled as policemen to this amioiunt lof pay, and early 
 in the present sessdloni thiey sulbmitted a bill' ttoi the Legislatuire 
 which raised the pay of the secomd-yeair men from $1,100 to 
 $1,200, ajid the maximum salary from $1,200 to $1,400. The fire- 
 men are organized in' a regniarly incorpoirated socdety, which is 
 known as the Firemen's Mutual Benevolenit Association, the 
 pi'esidemt of whicii is Jam.eis D. Clifford, a fireman' attadhed to 
 Engine Oompajny No. 22. The bll to canry the firemen's claims 
 into effect was pirepaired under Mr. Clifford's directiaa and that 
 of a spedal colmimittee of the assoiciation, the chairman of which 
 is Timothy Eegau' of EWgine Company No. 44. 
 
 "AND NOW IT STEHtES A flNAO. 
 
 "Assemblyman Parey, of this city, took charge of the bill and 
 introduced ilt iin the lower house of the Legislatuire. Thriough 
 his efforts amd thbse of Speaker Fish it soon tooik on a semi- 
 political chairiacter and became known as a Bepublican measiiiTe 
 which the leading Eiepublicans of the Legislatuiie wished and 
 expected to paiss. It mioved through, the Assembly by quick amd 
 orderly stiages and was passied' without incident. Speaker Filsh 
 gave it the benefit of his intelligent amd authoritative assistance, 
 and the bill left the Assembly in precisely the form in which it 
 was intPoducedL In this form it affected the compensation of 
 firemen only. It did not affect the officers of the force in amy 
 resi)ect whatever. 
 
"Briop to the paaaage of thte Pavey bill by the Assembly it 
 bad been introduced in the Senate by Mr. Bobertson and had 
 been referred to tihe Senate citSes oomimittee, of which Robert- 
 son is a imieniber. No effort waiS made to pnsh it ta: the Sesoate 
 tuatil it had go<t through the A^embly. Then the friends of the 
 bill went to Senator Robertson and asked him to suibstitnte the 
 Pavey bill for his own (their terms were identical), and to I'epofrt 
 it favorably. Robertson hemmed and hawedl He said that thei^ 
 were other matters before Mb OHnmitttee of more importlanice 
 than the flreman^'s bill, and would give no indication when he 
 would move it, or whether he would; move it at all. But a few 
 days later, and without any notice to the friends of the Pavey 
 bill, Robertson called it up in committee and had it amended 
 by attaching to it a new provilsiion increasing also the pay of the 
 officers of the force. The bill, thuai amended, was faivoraMy 
 reported to the Senate. 
 
 "A CORRUPT PROPOSITION IS MADE. 
 
 "It raised a storm at once. The Pavey bill was uniobjectiom- 
 able to the city authorities. Indleed, Mayor Strong was known 
 to favor it, and it was well understlood that if it sueceededl in 
 passing the Legislature it would meet with no objectilon either 
 from the mayor or frora the Governor. In its amended form, 
 however, it was equally well known to be sure of defeat. A 
 law was already in existence eniablin® the city authorities at 
 will to imoreasie the pay of the officers, and the board of estimiate 
 had, year ajfter year, refused to act under its provisions. The 
 Robertson amendment made tliiils law mandatory, and no doubt 
 existed or could exist that it would be opposedi by the city 
 authoritiea The firemen and their friends mladle a great to-do, 
 and so prompt and influential were theik* protests that Robiert- 
 soii consented to haive his siubsitilbute bill recommii/ttted *oi iMe dities 
 committee there to umdleir'go further conisideriaitiloin. Alt this point 
 the true meaning of the Robertson amendmient began to develop. 
 The ofScers of the Firemen's Association and the members of 
 its special committee on legislatiom tegan to receive numeroosi 
 
hints from the foremen a»^ asaistaaiiti floremen in their Tairiwus 
 engine-houses tinait whlat w£^s wanted was a little 'soap,' and 
 that there were Senators at Albajny wihb 'were no* there for 
 theiiP health.' At last these snggastions took a definite form, and 
 the president of the Firemen's Association, Mr. OlifEord, was 
 approiacihed by one. of the officers of thte department with a dis- 
 tmct pnoposition that the men should meet the officers in a 
 boodle pmA. 
 
 «LGU PAYN, TO 'BANDIT TiHINGS.' 
 
 "Tlhie officeirB of tlhie dtepajitmenit hare an aasoicilation of tiheir 
 own. Its pireisident is Johini J. BumB, fbiremani of Hooik and 
 Ladder Com^pany, 'No. 1, wlhja is regai^de'd as one of tlhe best fire- 
 men, and one of the abiesib men ilm tlhie departmleinit. Tlhiere are 
 86 foremen in thie d'epartmenlt; 97 algsistHnt foremen; two diepiuttiy 
 dhilefs and! 13 batalibn dhiePsi; miaking in^ aJl 198 lofficers. There 
 are 912 flremeni The propositiion atubmltlted to Mr. ClifEoird was 
 that the officers would 'pnt! up' |15,000 and tlhie men $30,000 
 moire, miaiking a total of $45,000. Mr. drffioird' was informed thiat 
 no bill of any kind woiuild errer come out of the cities commirtjtee 
 of the ^nate until this amlount of money had been raised, and 
 that the Initerests of tWe offioers had been placed in the hands of 
 ' Lou ' i*ayn, who would ' ^handle things ' at Albajny. Mr. Clifford 
 asked some questions in order to posseeis himself of the maiin 
 facts in thie case, aiid then eitlated thiait th'e men had miade up their 
 minds that they would not engage in any bribery business and 
 would eithler get theiir increiaise of piay without the use of mioney 
 or gio withoiut ft. 
 
 " Subsequent investilg'altion.s and acicidental revelations brought 
 out the fact that a comanittee of offlcens existed, composed of 
 Mr. Bums, Ibremian Frederildk W. Geodemsion, Jr., of Engine 
 Company, No. 35; and Assistant Ftoreman James J. Smithy of 
 fioiok and Ladder, No. 2, who were placed in charge of the legiisr 
 lative interests of the offioem For leaich btattalioni aj collector 
 was- appointed to raise the neicei?isiary money, and a considerable 
 sum of money, which atl one time, amounted to $7,000, was acta. 
 
ally raised among the officers. During the pendency of the bill 
 in the Senate committee the informiartion was formally conveyed 
 to the firemen that the bill was effectually locked in oooundttiee, 
 and thiait thje SenartMis who were ' in cbarge of the matter ' weire 
 Eobertson^ Coggeshall and. Eaines. 
 
 "A FULL ESrVESTIGATION NECESSABY. 
 
 "Eventually, as is well known, 1ih.ese Senators 'let go.' The 
 bill was restored to its original condition, reported favoraibly 
 and pa^ed. It receivied the mayor's approval and iiiie Groivemor's 
 signature, and it is mow a law. The officers' bill was introduced 
 as a separate measure, was reported favorably, and is now pend- 
 ing. This came about because of the firm position the firemen 
 took in refusing to be blackmailed and because of thie powerful 
 political imfluemces they were able to siecxine in behalf of their 
 just measure and in support: of their hionorable oonduct. But the 
 behaviJor of two of the Senators, Eobertsom and Ooggeslhall, 
 wlwjse names were oonneoted with this sicandal, and who, on 
 Tuesday last, repudiated their caucus pledges and voted' in the 
 Senate to emasculate the Lexow Police Keorganization Bill by so 
 amending it as to give to policemen 'the right of appeal from the 
 findinig of the police reorganization oommissSon, gives to the facts 
 in the case of the fiTemen's bill a peculiar pertinency. If it can 
 be possible that they were so inno<;ient as not to know that their 
 names were being used to force corrupt legislation, then they 
 certainly will be amxSious to sihed what light they can oni thje 
 matter. There is no doubt that an investigation properly under- 
 taken into the facts which the Press now has made public, will 
 develop the whole truth. Such an iinvesitigation must certainly 
 ■be had." 
 
 3. The history of the firemen's salary bill referred to in saidi 
 article, as appears by the Senate and Assembly journals, is as 
 follows: Early in the session of 1895, Assemblyman Pavey, in the 
 Assembly, and Senator Robertson, in the Senate, introduced a 
 bill to increase the salary of the subordinajte members of thei 
 F. 2 
 
10 
 
 New YorK city fine depaxtmemt. T^e Payey bUl passed ttihe 
 AissemWy on February 7, 1895, and was referred to fte Senaiti© 
 cities comimittee, to which the Senate bill had also been referred 
 upon its introdxwjtion, and where it sitill remained unacftied viptm. 
 On Febimjiary 26, 1895, the Koberfcson bill was repointed from' thlej 
 Senate comimitfiee, with an ataolendment offered by the introidnioer 
 of the bill, incireasing, by ramndafcoiry proTision^ the slalaries of the 
 officeirs of the fire deparrtment, but said bill was' <m February 27, 
 1895, on miotioni of Senator Mullita, recoimnittied to sadd cMea 
 oonunitttee, which ooaninittee on the 18th day of March, 1895, 
 nepoirted the Pavey bUl unaraended, and on the 26(th day of Miardh, 
 1895, siaiid bill passed the Senate pmctti'cally without oppositiomi. 
 It thereafter received the approvaii of the mayor of the city, of 
 New YorK.anid the Giovemor of the State, atnd became aj law. 
 
 4. Mr. Quigg, called as a witness in his own behalf, admitted 
 that he wais the axubhoir of the axtiicleiln question, stated the 
 sources of Ms infonanlation, and disavowed any personal knowt 
 edge of any of the facts stated therein, with reference to the ral«- 
 ing or payment of money fan oorriupt purposes or connecting sena- 
 tors therewith. i 
 
 Mr. Qniiigg testified that the mention of the names of Senatorsi 
 Eaines and Goggeshall in the publiciaitilon was based exclusively; 
 upon information reoeSlved from Firemen Clifford amd 
 Eothenhausler, of a conversation held by Bothenhausler 
 with Assistant Foreman Smith, of the fire depai^tment, 
 and the mention of the name of Senator Eiobei-tson in the puMt 
 cation was based exclusively upon the same conversation, anortHiep 
 interview between Firemen Clifford and Eiothenhausler with Mrs. 
 Fanny O'Eeilly, widow of Patrick O'Eeilly a flremam, aind a 
 conversation with one Leary. 
 
 Ml". Qnigg's statement appears in 'the stenographer^si minuteal 
 as fallows: 
 
 " Q. The name of Baiaes was mentioned in that aorticie on the! 
 strength of statements made to yon by Eothenhausler and Clif- 
 ford? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 " Q. That conversation was the sole basis of your use of thie 
 name of Senator Eaines in this aalicie? A. Yesi, sir* 
 
11 
 
 " Q. No oitiher persooa had giren ycm inf otrmatioii in regard to 
 negotiations by or iin Ms beliaJf in regard to a corruption fund ? 
 A. No, slip. 
 
 "Q. You had taken paSlns to have ElothenhJausler redtoce to 
 ■writing his statement for yofur own protection' as well as for 
 information? A- Yes, sir. 
 
 " Q. Have you up to this time any inf ormaition from any source 
 of any negotiation by or in behalf of Senartxw Kainesi, except what 
 you got through ,that conTersiation? A. No, sir. 
 
 " Q. Have you any inf ormjaition, direct or indirect, in regaUd to 
 negotiatiion by or in behalf of Senator Ooggeshall, except what 
 you got through tliat interview? A. No, sir. 
 
 "Q. Have you any information from any source of any negio- 
 tiations by oir in behalf of Senator Boiberbson, except what you got 
 by that interview? A. I think the convensati'on which was 
 detailed here, and which I had heard before I wrote the airticle, 
 between the two firemen, Clifford anid EothenhlaJusler, with Mrs. 
 O'Eeilly, constitutes the only infoirmation I had in addition to 
 that. 
 
 "Q. And just upon the strength of tha± statement of these 
 two men you mentioned the name of Senator Robertson? A. No, 
 air. 
 
 "Q. In connection with the corruption fund? A. Another 
 ground upon which I mentioned the name is tih&,t of a conversa- 
 tion with Leary at the tilme he went to see hiim and ask him 
 to report the bill. 
 
 "Q. Yola may state what that was? A. Mr. Leary told me 
 that he ha.d asked Senator Robertson to report the bill, and 
 Robertson told him — 
 
 "Q. Report with or without the amendment? A. Without; 
 and Robertson told him there were otter very much more im- 
 portant matters before thte committee than a fe-eman's bill, and 
 he did not think he should have time to attend to it; within a 
 few days aifteir that conversation it was reported with the 
 attnendment. 
 
 "Q. Have yoni start;ed the whole case? A. Now I have stated 
 the whole case. 
 
12 
 
 "Q. On which you uisedi thle SeniatorB' namies? A, On wMoh 
 they were used:" 
 
 Mr. Quigg further testified thalt RotheDhianialer told him. " these 
 Senators reqiiiried to be tiaken care of." 
 
 The committee thereuplon toioik the testimony of Frank J. 
 Eothenhaiusler, who had heldl the imtervlew with Smith and 
 Mrs. O'Eeilly, ajud he testified that (m the 9th' of March he had 
 an interview with Assistant Foreman Smith, of Hook and Lad- 
 der 2, as follows: 
 
 "A. When he (Slmith) came in I askted him if he could give me 
 any information in reference to what kept onir salaries bSll in 
 the cities committee of the Senate, and he told me to try and 
 get our president to mieet the president of the offioeirs' asso- 
 ciation, John J. Bums, and he would tell hSm wha|t arrange^ 
 ments ootuld be made; andl that it could not be made without 
 money, and he would tell hika the amount it would cost, and he 
 says your bill won"fi be reported out by the last da,y of this 
 session. We have been told so by fritends who have taken up 
 our amendment; he said that the friends were Payn, Bobertson, 
 Eaines and Ooggeshall; hie said, 'The men are not up there for 
 their health; ' he said, ' If you people are wise, you will come 
 half way with us and have both bills paissed at the same time; ' 
 he said, ' The only thing that can be done is by seeing the people 
 with the rtequirement.' " 
 
 On croi8s-examih!ation Rothtenhiausler testified as follows: 
 
 "Q. Yon have stated here that Mr. Smith told yoiu that thfe 
 friends of their bill were Payn, Ooggeshall, Eoberston amd 
 Eaines? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 " Q. Dild he say anything else to you with reference to thtese 
 Senators? A. Nio, siir. 
 
 "Q. Did he say anything to you abloiut their requiring money? 
 A- No, sir. 
 
 "Q. Did he say anything to youi about theSn being favorable 
 oi- against the bill? A. He said thtey were friends of his. 
 
 " Q. Th^t the only form in which their names weie mentioned? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
13 
 
 "Q. And that thlese people that were there in, Albany were 
 not there fo* thteir hieialth; you xunderstamd th'at he spoke of ' go 
 betweens?' A- Yea 
 
 "Q. He didn't speak of Sienattors being there not for their 
 health? A No, sir. 
 
 " Q. And you told it to Qnigg abouit' the lOth of March? A. 
 Yes, flfflr." 
 
 Mr. EoithienhJausleir identified a wirftten statement of the 
 conversation with Sunith which he made at the request of Mr. 
 Quigg, amd delivered! to Mr. Qnigg immediately after his dlnter- 
 view with Mr. Quigg, which states the conversatioin with Smith 
 in slightly difiEerent form, except that mo mention of Senator 
 CSoggeshall occurs therein. 
 
 The committee alsm examdnied! Filremajui Cliflord, referred to by 
 Mr. Quigg aboive, with regaidl to the interview which Mr. Clifford 
 had with Mrs. O'EieSllly, and he testifled that hie and Eotlhen- 
 hau'sler called upon Mria O'Eleilly, ajfter having heard 'that 
 O'Bedlly had been' around maMbg colliectiionis from officers! for 
 the purpose of the amenldimeniti to the salary bill, and after the 
 dearth of CRieilly. He further testilfied as follOwsi: "We ques- 
 tioned thfe woman cionicieming the mlatttieT; we told her we had no 
 diesire ta Know whierie the miotniey came frotml or amythamg in con- 
 nection with the maititer, but hleardi sotaei people were making 
 unjust claiins against! her foi^ some moniey she had received, anid 
 we do nioifc dmre her tloi bte troubled in that kdind of way; the 
 woiman sitarted and told us abbiut how her husband. used to tell 
 hler about hiis business, and hiad left the house oni SatuiPdiay even- 
 ing with a satchel to make dollectiions, bhxt that she didn't think 
 he hIad colltected any mioniey, for he came back sick and disguisitied, 
 and said hfe was going to let the whole business go; we told hter 
 we did mot caite to see aibout that, but thie most we were inter- 
 ested in were people makiing unjust claims against her; shie 
 asked us if we represented the offiicers of the assotcilation; we 
 told her no; she said she had a list of the names of thtose who 
 were going to conltribute the money, but we told hier we did 
 not care about gettinig that list, and then she said, 'You people 
 represent a gentleman by the name of Eobiertson; ' and we said. 
 
u 
 
 'We don't know hiknj who is he?' and she said, ' Mr. . Bobertson 
 is a Senator; thait is the genitlaiian who hias got charge of onr 
 affairs; my, husband ttold me so;' she said, 'I dlon^* J^now 
 whether my husbanid has goiti any money, but if he hasi I will 
 return it to you; ' we brought the matter to the editor of. the 
 Press." 
 
 Assiktant Foireman Smith was sworn and he denied in detail 
 that he ever had a oonyersaifcioto wilth Eioiifhtenhausler testified toi 
 by MnL Mvs. O'Bedlly ailso was swom' and she denied that she 
 ever made the statemients to Clifford sworn Ho by him, or th.at 
 she ever mentioned the name of Sen'aitoir Eotertsiolni in any ootn- 
 niection prior to tjhe puiblicattioni of the PresB article. 
 
 No evidence was giveni uplon thfei hearing before uis' of any oom- 
 municaitSjon or transaictibn by and between the Seniaitoirei named', 
 and any pension whiotasoever, or between any person whodnisoever 
 acting or assulning to act! om behialf of the Senators named, 
 having reference Hat cOrmptl niegoibiaiifflolnis foiP thJeir influence iln 
 behalf of the officers' amen'diaent to the Pavey salary bill. If a 
 fund foiP corruipt purpolsies was levite'd upon the members of the 
 officers' alsBOciation, there is an absolute failure of evidence, direct 
 or circumstantial, thialt any StenaJtor ever had Imowledge of the 
 raising of such a fulnd or lof an arttfcettnplt to raise or use such a 
 fund to prom;ote thie interest of the officers' amletaldlmenit to the 
 firemen's salary bill. 
 
 We find that there iis nO evidlence whiaiteoever that Senators 
 Eaineis, Coggeishall anid Eioibertsoni were at any time aware that 
 any corrupt fund was beiing raised for the purpose of aiding the 
 said offficers' amendment^i wiere ever approaiched by any person 
 corruptly eolicititag themi toi favor such am amendment^ and that 
 the evidence justifleB no othler ootoclusaioni than thlait they acted 
 throughout upon theik* convictibnsi with regard to the mierits of 
 the proposition snbmitttled to their considenaifeilotni ais members of 
 the Legisilature. 
 
 5. The teslinDotny estalblitehes the fate* that while these bills 
 were pendSng at Albany rumioirs were rife i!ni the "Nrnw Yorli dty 
 fire department ataonig the offioetisi and mieb, nto* only that thie 
 
15 
 
 use of mioney would bte necessary tio secuire the passage of tlie 
 EobertBon: amended bill, but that the officers of the fire depart- 
 ment were raising or were ajbout to raise ai considerable suim of 
 money for that purpoise. It appears that Dennis Leary, a lob- 
 byist, was introduced by ex-Deputy Fire Ohlef McOabe to fire 
 officers Shaw and Orakier as a goold man to take charge of the 
 bill at Albany. Leary made a propolsitioni to them^ that he be 
 employed by the officers' aissociatito for $10,000 to go up to 
 Albany in the interest of the bill. These negotiations were 
 broken off by the following mote ajddressed by Shaw to Leary 
 under date oiB March 5, 1895: 
 
 J). Leaet, Esq.: 
 
 Dear Sir. — We were unable to influence the officers to ch'ange 
 
 their program last night and it will go as I told you. Sorry 
 
 that we did not mfeet sooner and! miight have had different 
 
 resnllB. ' 
 
 ( Yours. 
 
 WILLIAM SHAW. 
 
 This transaction, together wiith the statements of Officer Head, 
 as testified to by Firemen Zorn, Kelly and Thompson (which 
 that officer now says were made in jest), the impression formed 
 on the minds of Firemen Oonboy, Oampbell, Stevens and Beagan 
 as to Officer Horam's lost memorandum, book that it was an 
 officer's assessment book, the evidence of Eothenhansler, Clifford, 
 Franch, LaGrange, Bonner, COnway, Shieridan, Shaw and Ryan', 
 and the circumstances surrounding McOabe's suicide, poinit irre- 
 sistibly to the conclusion that thte idea was crairrenrt in the depart- 
 ment that if tihe officers' amemdmen't was ever passed it would 
 be necessary to ral^ a large sum to aeoomplish it, and that 
 preparatHonia were being made therefor. But there is no evi- 
 dence that any sum was aetaally raised or that any one outside 
 of thte fire department, except Leary, asked for or suggested the 
 raising of money. 
 
 Officers of the fire dteipajrtiment mentioned by said witnesses 
 took itihe stand and flatly contradicted all evidlence of implicat- 
 
16 
 
 ing staltiements alleged' to hare bteen maidle by thfem, amd nmrDeroras 
 other officers denied all knioiwledge of sucli fundi 
 
 6. Louis r. Payn, mentioined in said articte, was respOnsffible 
 for the appeairanoe of the officers' ameudmeet at Albany. After 
 learning froim Foreman Burnis, the president of the officers' 
 assaciation, that the Pavey bill, as it passied the Assembly, di!d 
 not includle a provisiloin' raising the pay of the officers, Payn 
 induced Senator Eaiiinea to draft the amendment, and Senattor 
 Eobertson to propose lit iin the cities committee. He (Payn) says 
 he put the amendmiem^- on the bill and agreed to taJie it off. 
 
 Payn testifies that he resides at Albaaiy dming the sessions 
 of the Legislature to look after legislation; that he ilsi the salalried 
 legislative aigent of several un.disclosed principals; that he fre- 
 quents the Senate and Assembly for the piirpose <of influencing 
 the action of the members of the Legislature on bills in which 
 his employers are interested, not by arguments before oommit- 
 tees, but solely by pei'sonal oonversiaitions and personal solicfita- 
 tions of a private and confidential nature; thlalt he has followed 
 that oocuipati'on for many years, and that he has nio other re- 
 munerative oocnpation. He was oensuired by a Senatorial inyesiti- 
 gating committee in the year 1869 in connection with services 
 of the above chajracter rendered, by him for the Erie railroad, 
 although on th'at occasion, as on this, bWbery or attempHed 
 bribery of legislators was not proved! agailnst hSkn. The t^timony 
 of Mr. Payn was received in regard to thlat censume to the effect 
 that the prihcipial witness, Van Valk'enbergh, upon which the 
 committee baaed its report, made an affidavit materially modilfy- 
 ing or substantially taiking back his testimony on that exami- 
 nation. He also testified that the dommSttee who signed the 
 report, of which committee the Hon. Matthew Hale was chair- 
 man, gave a wrSltten statement to the effect that their censure of 
 Payn was based! upon the testikniony of Vani "Vailkembeirigh; and 
 that upon the affidavit being presented th^ exonerajfed' Payn 
 from all blame and practically retracted their censure of h'ilm. 
 This testimony was received with the understanding that Mr. 
 Payn was to present to the committee certilfled oopiesi of the 
 affidavit of Vajn Valbenbergh, and of the retractioin by the ootar 
 
nittee, wMcLi Txe alleged were on file ik Washington, and' in 
 
 lefault of sol doing Ms testimony in refernce to this matter was 
 to be stricken from the recoind. Mr. Payn submitted! to the 
 committee a certified ooipy of the affidavit of Van Valkenbergh, 
 which was made on the 30th day of MaircH, 1877, the original of 
 which was filed in the department of justice at Washington, and 
 which affldaTit is substantially as Payn testiaed, but he failed 
 to produioe the retraction of the committee, stating in a letter 
 to the committee that the papers could not be found on file in 
 the departmient. i 
 
 7. It sihoiuld nolt pass umniOitilcield thatl a,lthougii all thle facts 
 upon which "The Press article of April 18th was based were in 
 the piossiesisioin of Mr. Quigg as early as th'e 15tlh day of March, 
 1895, he made no uise of thiemi fpr more than a month, and: only 
 pubUslhled the sitory upoii leaminig thatl Stenaitoins Eaines and 
 Ooggeshiall had TOlted aigailn'st reporting from: the judiciary com- 
 mittee a bill to dhlanlge tihe place of hiolding judicial sales ini New 
 York city. Mr. Quigg had taken: a deep interest; iai this bill as 
 well as the flremietn's bill, coming to Albany frequentiy to urge 
 . its paslsage, and adyoicaitiing the same almoist daily iln the columns 
 of his newspaper. He frankly admits that it was only after the 
 adverse aotibm of the above-named Seinatioirs on the juidicial sales 
 bill thlait he thouight it was tltnie toi pulblishi tihie article. , 
 
 . 8. It is a matter of regret that the name of Senator Ahearn was 
 mentioned by Fire Oomm.ls;s4oner LaGrange while on the witnesis 
 stand ais having been donmnunioated toi him by ex-Chief McOabe 
 in coDQuectiom with an alleged firemen's corruption fund in a 
 previous year. We cheerfully extended to Senatoi- Atieam an 
 opportunity to meet this hieacsay accusatbiomi when requested, so 
 to do by him. The restult waB his complete viindication. from' any 
 charge of improper aonduicitl. 
 
 TMe testimony taken before thie committee is herewitli sub- 
 mitted. 
 
 All of which is mespectfully submitted. 
 
 EDMUND O'CONlSrOR, 
 J. MULLm, 
 
 OUTHBEET W. POUND, 
 JACOB A. OANTOB, 
 AMASA J. PAKKEE. 
 
PROCEEDINGS AND TESTIMONY 
 
 IS THE 
 
 MATTER OF THE INTESTIGATION BY THE SPECIAIi COM- 
 MITTEE APPOINTED PURSUAITT TO EESOLUTION OF 
 THE SENATE, OF THE CHAEGES OF BEIBEKY EST CON- 
 NECTION WITH THE PASSAGE OF THEi FIEEMEN'S 
 .INCEEASE OF SALARY BILL, COMMONLY KNOWN AS 
 THE PAVEY BILL. 
 
 The commiWee convened' at Part II of thei Conrt of Gemeral 
 Sessions, in New York city, April 20, 1895, at 10 a. mi. 
 
 Present. — Senator O'Connor, chairman; Senaltoirs Cantor, Mnl- 
 lin^ Parker, Pound. 
 
 Appearances. — Mr. EUkti) Boot, for New York papens; Mr. 
 George Eaines, for the Hon. John Elainea 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Mr. Ward and Mr. Perkins, of the Newi 
 York Press, who have been subpoenaed to attend here, are excused 
 on the statement of Lemuel E Quigg, that he takes the fniU' 
 responsibility for the publication of the articles in connection 
 with the charges of bribery, and further states that the gentle- 
 men in question know nothing about the mastter. 
 
 The following isi the article refemed to: 
 
 " Boodle, 145,000 — A Legislative Scandal' which must be Investi- 
 gated — Firemen's Bill Strike ^ — Mercenaries Demand a Cor- 
 ruption Fund. — Money Actually Eaised — Eobertsom, Cogge- 
 shall and Eaines were the Senators Mentioned. — ' Lou ' Payn to 
 'Handle Things' — Negotiations with Prominent Firemen — 
 Efforts to Sidetrack the Pavey Bill — Only Powerful Influence 
 was able to Make the Senators ' Let Go ' — The Fi(re Depart- 
 ment Should go ta Work and Ask some Questions. i 
 
 " The next Lexow investigation should be of the State Senate 
 itself. There are members of that body whose motives in their 
 attitude towar'd certain public measures need to be inquired mto. 
 The Press presents to-day certain facts in connection wiith the 
 histolry of the firemen's salary bill which point unerringly at cor- 
 rupt negotiations, if not between Senators and the representa^ 
 tJves of thie officerisf association of the fire departmient, at leiast ih 
 
19 
 
 behialf of Senatoro, throTigh. one of th.e moBtt notfcorioius political 
 lobbyists. These facts suggest, if tliey dio not wholly prove, that 
 the measnrie introduoed by Senator Robertson as a snbsatute 
 for the Pavey salary bill was a strike for money; that it was so 
 understood by the offtcers of the Are department; that it resulted 
 from negotiaitions in which ex-Marsihal Loiuis F. Payn was a con- 
 spicnons figure; that the terms of the negotiations required the 
 raising among the firemen of this city of $45,000 tO' be distribiuited 
 among the Senato'rs who were alleged toi be in' the deal; that if 
 they were not in the deal they were made the tools of a most 
 bold and shameful' plot for corrupHdon; that 'arrangements to 
 raise the money were made by and pregsed upon the offlcers' 
 association, whose proportion of the |45,000 was |15,000 ; that of 
 thiis 115,000, between |7,000 and $10,000 was actually raised, and 
 *hat the Senators whose mames were mentioned among the fire- 
 men as the men who ' required to be taken care of '' were Robert- 
 son, of WeBtchesten; Raines, of Ontario^, and Ooiggeshall, of 
 Oneida. , 'I 
 
 "HOW TETE: SAI.ART BILL WAS MADE. 
 
 " The pay of thie members of the fire 'department of the grade 
 of fireman, under exi'gting law, is $1,000 a year for first-year men; 
 $1,100 a year foir siecond-year mev. and $1,200 a year for third- 
 year men, whilch' is thte maxiknlum salary for firemen. Until one 
 year ago these sumis were alsoi paid to thb memWers of the police 
 force, but th'e last Legislature, under dircumstam'ces that caused' a: 
 ffood deal of scandal, raSlsed' We salairiesi of piolicetm'eii iia $1,400. 
 The raenibers of the fire department thoughti thletmBelres as mnoh 
 entitled as poli'cemeni td thfe amount of pay, and' early ini the 
 Turesent session th'ev siubmitted ai Mil fo th'e Lerfslature whildhi 
 raised th^ pay of th'e secotad-vear mien' friota $1,100 to $1,200 and 
 the macdmumi salary from $1,200 tbi $1,400. ThIe firemen are 
 orsranfeed' in a reQ^iillarlv ibieoipnoTated' soicietv, which' I® Icnbwni aisi 
 th'e IPiretnerfs Mutual ■Blpmevolent A'ssoicliatlon. thie wrefeident of 
 which i!s Jaimes T). niifPo.r'd, a: fireman' attalchied to Ensrine Coim- 
 naliy, 'Na. 22. The bill to cnrrv th'e firemipn'si claims into effect 
 was pretfaired under TWr. niifPord's direction' anid th^t of a swedlal 
 comnii'tt'pe of th'e awoiciatiom'. the chairman of whiichi is Timothy 
 ■Regan of Endne Company, ^N'o'. 44. 
 
 "ATSTD NOW IT STRIKES A STiTAG. 
 
 «Asi?iemlbllymiani Paivey, of thi's ci^ty, took charge of th'e Mil and 
 introduced it in the lower house of thte Legislature. Thirough hisi 
 efforts and th'oise of S'peaker Pish, it soon took on a semf-PoHtiteal 
 character anid became kinown as a Republfeani m-tjasiupe, which the 
 
20 
 
 leading EeipiiWicaiis of tllie Legislature wisbled and expectefli to 
 pass. It moved tifiroiuglii the Assembly by quick amd orderly 
 stages and was passed without imcident Speaker Fisih gave it 
 the benefit of bis intelligent and autboritative assistance, and tbe 
 bill left the Assembly in precisely the form j'n. whieh it was 
 introduced. In this, f oirm "ilt aflaoted the oompemsation of flremiea > 
 only. It did not affect the offioersi of the force in any respect 
 whatever. 
 
 "Prioi- to the passage of the Pa.vey bill by the Assembly it 
 had been introduced in the Senate by Mir. Bobertson and ihaid 
 been referred to tbe Senate cities committee, of wbichi Kiobertson 
 is a member. No effort was miade to pnsh it ini the Senate until 
 it had gone through* the Assembly. Tlhen the friends of the bill 
 went to Senator Bobertson and asked Mm to substitute the 
 Pavey bill for his o^wn (their termsi were identical), and to repoi-t 
 it favorably. Robertson hemmed and bawed. He said there 
 were other matters before Ms committee of more importance than 
 the firemen's bill, and would give no indication when be would 
 move it, or whether he would move it all. But a few days later 
 and without any notice to the friends of the Pamey bill, Eobertson 
 called it up in the oommittee and had it amended by aittaching to 
 it a new provision increasiag also the pay of the officers of the 
 force. The bill, thuH amended, was favorably reported to the 
 Senate. 
 
 "A OOBBUPT PEOPOSITIOlSr IS MADE. 
 
 " It raised a storm at once. The Pavey bdJl was unobjeption- 
 able to the city authorities. Indeed, Mayor Strong was known to 
 favor it, and it was well understood that if it suicceedied in 
 passing the Legislature it would meet with no objection either 
 from the mayor or from thle Govemoir. In its amended form, 
 however, it was Equally well known' to be sure of defleat. A law 
 was already in existence eniatoltng the city authorities at will 
 to increase the pay of thtei ofScers, aJnd the board of estimate 
 had year after year refused to act under its provisions. The 
 Bobertson amendment made this law mandatory, and no doubt 
 existed or could exist that it would be opposed by the city 
 axithorities. The firemen and their friends' made a great tot-do, 
 and so promipt and influential were their prottests that Bobert- 
 son consented to haive Ms substitute bill recommitted to the 
 cities committee, there to umdlergo further consideratiton!. At 
 this point the true meaning of the Bobertsoni amendment began 
 to develop. Thte officers of the firemen's association and the 
 members of its ^cilal committeie on legislation began to receive 
 numerous hints from the foremen and assistant foremen in their 
 various engine-houses that whiat wajs needed was a little ' soap,' 
 
21 
 
 and that there were Senators at Albany who 'were not there 
 -for their health,' At last these suggestion^ took a definite form, 
 and the president of the firemen's association, Mr. Clififord, was 
 approached by one of the officers of the department with a dis- 
 . timet propo'sitilon that the mien should meet the officers in a 
 boodle fund. 
 
 "LOU PAYN TO 'HANDLE: THINGS.' 
 
 "The officiers of the department have an association of their 
 own. Its preeddlent is Johni J. Buiras, foreman of Hook and 
 Ladder Oompany, No. 1, who is regarded as one of tiie best 
 firemen and one of the ablest mem in the depairtment. There 
 are 86 foremen! in the department, 97 assistant foiemeu, 2 
 deputy chiefs, and 13 battalion chiefs, making in.' all 198 officers. 
 There are 912 firemen. The proposition submitted to Mr. Clifford 
 was ttoat the officers would 'put up' |15,000 and the men 
 130,000 moire, making a total of |45,000. Mr. OlifEord was in- 
 formed that no bill of any kind' would ever come out of thf 
 cities comniittee of the Senate until this amount of money had 
 been raised, and that the interests of the officers had been 
 placed in the hiaindis of 'Lou' Payn, who would 'handle things' 
 at Albany. Mr. GliffoTd asked some questionisi in order to 
 possess hSmiself of the main facts of the case, and then stated 
 that the men had' made up their mindsi th.at they would not 
 engage in any bribery busiaess and would either get their 
 increase of pay without th'e use of money or would go without it. 
 
 " Subsequent investigatioms and accidental revelations bronght 
 out the fact that a committee of officers existed, composed of 
 Mr. Bums,. Poireman Frederick W. Gooderson, Jr., of Engine 
 Company, No. 35, and Assistant Foreman Jamesi J. Smitli, of 
 Hook and Ladder, No. 2, who were placed in charge of the legis- 
 lative interests otf the officers. FaP each battalion a collector 
 was appointed to raise the necessary money, anld a considerable 
 sum, of money, which at one time amounted to $7,000, was actually 
 raised among the officers. During the pendency of the Mil in 
 the Senate committeie the information was formally conveyed; to 
 the firemen that the bill wals efBectually locked in the comimittee, 
 and that the Senators who were ' in charge of the matter ' were 
 Eobertson, Coggeshall an!d Eainesi 
 
 "A FULL USrVESTIGATION NECESSARY. 
 
 "Eyemtually, as i® wey known, these Senators 'let go' Tlie 
 bill was restored to its olriginal condition, repoirted favorably and 
 passed. It received the mayor's approval and the Governor's siig- 
 
22 
 
 Qature, and it is now a law. The oflacers' bill was intPcJdliced as ai 
 separarte meaaure, was repoirted favorably and is now pending. 
 This came about because of the flmi' position tbe firemen tooik in 
 refusing to be blackmailed and because of tbe powerful political 
 influences ■th.ey were able tlo seouire in. behalf of their juet measure 
 and in suippoint of their honorable conduct But the beliarior of 
 two of the Senators, Eobertsoa and Ooggeshall, whose names 
 wene connected with this scandal, and who on Tuesday last 
 repudiated their caucus pledges and voted in the Senate to emasi- 
 culate the Lexow police reorganization bill, by so amending it 
 as toi give to policemen the right of appeal from the finding of the 
 police reorganization commission, gives toi the facts in the case 
 of the firemen's bill, a peculiar pertinency. If it can be possible 
 that they were so innocent as not to knoiw that their names were 
 being used to force corrupt legislation, then they certainly will 
 be anxious toi shed what light they cam on the matter. There 
 is no doubt that an iavestigatioM, properly undertaken, into the 
 facts which The Press has' now made public, will dt?velope the 
 T\fiole truth. Such an investigation must certainly be had." 
 
 IJemuel E. Quigg, being duly sworn as a witness^ and examined 
 by Senator O'Connor, testified as follows: 
 
 Q. What is your connection with The New York Press? A. I 
 am the editor and publisher. 
 
 Q. You have been such hofw long? A. Since the 31st of Janu- 
 ary, 1895. 
 
 Q. I show you, Mr. Quigg, an issue of The New York Press of 
 Thursday morning, April 18, 1895, and call your attention to 
 the airticle upon the first page, entitled " Boodle, |45,000 ;" do you 
 acknowledge the writing and publication of that artiicle? A, 
 Yes, sirj I wrote it and published it. 
 
 <J. Can you give the committee any facts that you know of to 
 sustain that article? A. Most of the facts that I know of can not. 
 be testified to by me correctly. 
 
 Q. Do you of your own personal knowledge know anything 
 about it? A. I do, of my own personal knowledge, know some- 
 thing about it; if the committee will allow me to tell the stoiy in 
 connected form I will do so. 
 
 Q. I first want to know if you had personal knowledge of the 
 matters contained in the artiiole? A. Some personal knowledge. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any money having been raiised for the pur- 
 pose of aiding the passage of the so-called Pavey firemen's bill? 
 A. I do not 
 
23 
 
 Q. Do you kmow of any money having been paid to any of the 
 Senators mentioned, or amy other Senators? A. I do ut)l. 
 
 Q. That is, I mean pensonally? A. 'No, sir. 
 
 Q. When yoiu wrote the article, so far as any knowledge you 
 had, it was information you had received from other parties? A. 
 The article so sftatea that it was on information and belief. 
 
 Q. Personally, you know nothing at all about it? A. I did not 
 say that; I know nothing personally about the paying of money; 
 I did not see it paid and do not know that it was paid. 
 
 Q. Were you infonned by any person that it was paid? A. Na 
 
 Q. No person informed yora of any money being paid? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. We are willing you should go on staining Itie infanmatitoin 
 you had, giving the names of the parties from, whomyou received 
 that information, and upon what statements this artide was 
 published? 
 
 By Mr. Kaines: 
 
 Q. It seems to me in view of the appearance of the newspapers 
 by counsel, and the statement that testimony will be offered to 
 substantiate the charges, th^ for the present we had better 
 adhere to rules ol evidence; that Sis, to allow the witness to state 
 the facts within his knowledge, and if it is then necessary, to 
 widen the investigation and to the receiving of hearsay evidence. 
 Would it not be better to permit the witness to state the names 
 of the witnesses from whom he received the evidence, and then 
 to call those persons as witnesses? 
 
 Mr, Boot — I suppose the committee will follow the same 
 rules and policy in this investigation as thiey have in other 
 investigations. 
 
 Senator O'CJonnor. — The committee has come to the conclu- 
 sion thiat they will receive any facts that Mr. Quilgg knows of 
 his own knowledge, and when he has exhausted his knowledge 
 the committee are prepared to listen to any proof of the truth 
 of the charges. 
 
 By Senator O'Oonmor: 
 
 Q. G-ive the names of the persons from whom you derived thte 
 information? A. The infoWmatiom on which I wrote the article 
 was derived ahnOst entirely from James B. Clifford, a firteman, 
 from a man by the name of Eotheinhaiasler, a fireman, from Mr. 
 Began, a fireman, from Mr. Byan, and from other firemen whose 
 names I do not at the moment irecall, and fromi LoniS F. Paiyn; 
 Mr. Clifford told me. 
 
24 
 
 Mr. Eaines.— It seems'to me we have reached a point where the 
 ruling shotuldi come tni; I thing the witness sihiould be permitted to 
 should come in; I think the witness shoiuld be permittedl to 
 designate the particnlar portion of the charges thait Clifford! 
 infoniied -him about, and thlem call Clifford as to his knowledge 
 of the facts. 
 
 The WitneSiS. — The article has a good deal of history connected 
 with it, but I will try to confine myself to the pairft youi wilsih'; 
 Mr. Clifford told me that on a certain day, early in March', I 
 think the 6tth, be went to Daly's Thleaber, where he was detailed. 
 
 Mr. Eaines.--^ This seems to be oiatsitde the ruling. Thlere is 
 nothing about the 6th of March or of Daly's Theater im this 
 ai'ticle. I suggest, in view of the fact tihat coumsel appear hiere 
 for* the papers, thiat the counsel should produce witnesisies to 
 testify as to their knowledge. A whole day can be occupied by 
 listening tio rumor and hearsay, and I presume that tihle icom- 
 mittee desire thiat the facts should immiediately be gotten at, and 
 that mere rumor and Hearsay should not occupy the taimie of 
 tbe committee. What was said to this witness may have been 
 hearsay qb. the part of Cliffoird, and so pursued a roundabout 
 way until it reached Mr. Quigg. My friend, Mr. Root, has taken 
 the burden of producing witnesses to facts, and I submit that 
 mieire repetition upom thle stand of what other pei'son-s said iy 
 waste of tinae. 
 
 Senator Mullin;. — The committee think that every witness 
 should be called and then if Mr. Quigg desilres to make a state- 
 nient that he be permitted to do soi. 
 
 Senator Pounid.— If Mr. Quigg states the sources of his infor- 
 mation then we think we should go to the sources of his inifor- 
 mation. 
 
 ^enator O'Connor.— We do not thinli it is fair for witness to 
 teSfttfy to what isomeb0|dy told him, until the person whom he claims 
 gave him the information is sworn and testifies as to whether 
 he did so tell him. 
 
 Mr. Eool. — I do not tapposte that the committee purposes to 
 apply to an investigation which comes so close to the Senate 
 itself any different rule tham it has applied to fonmier investi- 
 gations. 
 
 Witness was further examined: 
 
 By Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. Do yoiu know Louis F. Payn? A. I do. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have a conveBsation with him regardin'" the 
 Firemen's Salary Bill? AT did. " 
 
 Q. Where was that conversatiom? A. New York city and in 
 Albany; I had twa 
 
25 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Payn make any statement to yotr regarding Ms 
 action with tlie amendment of that bill so that it would include 
 an increase of salaries to the officers of the fire department? 
 A. Mr. Payn told me he had put such an amendment on the bill. 
 
 Q. Did Payn tell you what he would do thereafter in regard 
 to that amenldment? A. He told me he would take it off. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Payn say anything to you about a pecuniairy loss; 
 in order that your statement may be made intelligible, I will 
 ask you a few questions in regard to thfe bill ; I have said some- 
 thing about a firemen's bill, what was that bill? A. The fire- 
 men's bill, as origtoaJly iutroduced in both houses of the Legis- 
 lature, was a proposition to increase the compensajtion paid to 
 members of the fire department of the grade of firemen; there 
 are three grades, or rather there are three terms of service of 
 that grade. The salary heretofore paid to one-year men was 
 |],000, and to the two-yeajr men was |1,100, and to the three-year 
 men v\as' $1,2C0; I'lie firemen's salary bill introduced in thi^ 
 Ijegislature, and in fa«t in both houses, was a bill to increase 
 the amoomst of compensation of first-year men to $1,100, and 
 increase thait of two-year men from II4OO to |1,200, and to 
 increase the compensation of the three-year men from $1,200 to 
 $1,400. That bUl was jxresented in the Assembly by Mr. Pavey, 
 and subsequiently in the Senate by Mr. Boheirtsoin. 
 
 Q. Can you state how many officers there are in the fire depart- 
 ment? A. One hundred and ninety-eight, but this bill did not 
 affect the compensation of liie officers; there was, as I under- 
 stand it, four grades of officers, foremen, assistant foremen, 
 chief of battalions and deputy chiefs; this biU did not in any 
 sense affect their compensation; there aaie 198 officers, and I 
 believe 912 men in the fire department 
 
 Q. What happened to the bill in the Assembly? A. The bill 
 jtassed the Assembly wiithouft amendm.ent and without incident 
 
 Q. What was the position of it in the Senate at the time it 
 passed the Assembly? A. When it passed the Assembly it was 
 pending in the Senate committee of cities in precisely the form 
 in which it had passed the Assembly. 
 
 Q. Priior to the conversation which you had with' Louis F. Payn 
 was anything done to that bill in the Senate or in the Senate 
 committee of cities? A. The bill was introduced in the Senate 
 by Senator Bobertson and referred to the cities committee. It 
 lay there for some time and subsequently to its passage in the 
 Assembly it issued from the cities committee with a favorable 
 recommendation, but with thait amendment; I think it was the 
 Assembly bill that was reported, but if not, the Eober'tson bill, 
 which was the precise language of the Pavey bill 
 P. 4 
 
26 
 
 By Senator Oanton: 
 
 Q. Wasi that befoire t!he Pavey bill passeidi ithe Assembly? A. 
 No; that was suibaequenit to the paasage of the Pavey bill by the 
 As'seimbly; the Pavey bill was not repionted iknimediately upon its 
 pasisage, bvit the Eoibentson bill, which was; the Parey bill identip 
 cally, so far as langraagie was concerned, was reported with an 
 amendment, and the amendment was a propositioii to increase 
 the comjpensation of the 198 officers; the pireclse efiEect of the 
 amendment was to render maindatoiry certain pennisslvie legisla- 
 tion that already existed allowing the boMd of estimate anid 
 appoirbionment in New York! toi increase the compensation of 
 ofiQoers of the fire department, buit which) had never bteem acted 
 upon by that board. 
 
 Q. As I understand it, this bill was' in this poisitiom when yotu 
 had the comvensation with Louis F. Payn? A Not quite; when, 
 the Bobertson bill was reported by the committee with the Boibt- 
 ertsiooa amendmient, it was afterward "reported back! tol the coml^ 
 mittee; it had no hearing in that committee and wasi reported] 
 back foil funtheTi ootnsideratioin, I think, oM mjotion of Senatoiri 
 Mulliii, and it was in that position in the committee when I had 
 this conversation with Louis F. Payn. 
 
 Q. Btate the conversation? A. I told Mr. Payn that I under- 
 stood that he was going toi offer no further opposition to the pas- 
 sage of the original Pavey bill, and he said thalt was: true, and I 
 said I was glad of itL 
 
 Q. Had there been prior to that conversation any conversatioin 
 eitheo* direct or indirect, between you or Payn, or had you caused 
 anything to be done Oir said to him;, or urged him toi withd'raw hi® 
 position and attitude toward the bill? 
 
 Mr. Eaines. — That calls for a good deal. 
 
 Mr. Boot. — I did not ask what the communication was. 
 
 The Witnessi. — Mr. Payn sttated that he had been asked to 
 abandon his opposition to the passage of the original Pavey' 
 bill. ' 
 
 Q. Was he referring to something of which you had knowledge? 
 A. I assume so; I had requested certain parties who are supposed 
 to have influence -with Payn, to aslt hiim.to desist; in fact^ to 
 " call him.1 off; " Mr. Payn said he had been asiked to abandon his 
 opposition and was going to do it, but he wanted me to undm 
 stand he did it at great sacrifice to himself, I think; I replied th'at 
 I was distressed to hear that; he said that the Pavey bill would] 
 be repoirted from th!e Senate committee the next day, audi I asked 
 hitn if it would be done in its original form and he said yes; I 
 
27 
 
 asked hlim. if lie was siure about it, aind he said lite was, and I 
 asKed him if amybody else would raise any objection to its paisi- 
 sage in its original form, and he said no, that nobody else woiuild, 
 that he had put the Eobertson amendment on the bill and he 
 would take it off — the amendment increasing the salaries of 
 officers; I asked him if he would be sure to do it the next day, 
 and he said yes; and I said I thougiitt I would go up to Aibany to 
 see it done; he said h^ did not think that would be nec^ssiary or 
 useful, and I said I would go, however, and would see him up 
 there; I did go and I saw Mr. Payn in the Senate chamber, and| 
 I asked himi if the Pavey bill was going ix)i be reported, and he 
 said it was; I asked him if it would be done at once, and he said 
 that afltemoon; and he said again, Hiat he wanted me to underr 
 stand, or rather, he said, " I suppose you want this done no matten 
 how much it matters to me," andi I said, "Yes; I want it done; " 
 and he said, "Well, it is going to be done;" and he said some- 
 thing else; I don't remember the precise words. 
 
 By Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. The substance of the words? A. The substance of the 
 words was that he was not doing it for my sake, which I told him) 
 I undersitood, and I asked him if he had seen Senator Etobertson, 
 and he said no; but would do so at once; I need not botiher 
 myself; that the bill would come out of the committee, and thte 
 bill did come out without the Eobertson amendment. 
 
 Q. Did Payn say amything in this conversation to indicate the 
 nature of the sacrifice, and if so, state what he said? A. In the 
 first interview he said it would be expensive tO' him, and in the 
 second interview he put the question, " I suppose you want this 
 done, no matfter what it matters to me? " and I said I did. 
 
 Q. You speak, in this article which has been shown you by tihe 
 chairman of the dommittee, of a " most notorious political lobby- 
 ist; " to whom did you refer? A. Louis F. Payp. 
 
 Q. You speak in this article of a proposition submitted to Mr. 
 Clifford, and that proposition was that the officers should put 
 up $15,000, and the men f 30,000 more, making a total of $45,000; 
 was Ihat the information communicated to youi by Mr. Clifford? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You spoke of Clifford being informed that no bill of this 
 kind could coihe out of the committee until this money was 
 raised, and that the interests of the officers had been placed in 
 the hands of "Lou" Payn? A. Mr. Clifford told me that com- 
 munication had been made to him. 
 
 Q. You say that Clifford asked some questions in' order to 
 aacertain thle main facte <rf the case, and also that the mien 
 
28 
 
 would not engage in btibery, but would get tbieir increaee of 
 pay without it; was Iftiat based upon infoiraiation received from 
 Mr. Clifford? A. Yes; Mr. Clifford told me tbatt wasi what he 
 said to the men who made demands upon hilmt 
 
 Q. Yoiu say in this article that subsequent investigations and 
 incidentlal revelations brought out the fact thiat ai committee of 
 officers existed, composed of Mr. Bumsi, foreman, Frederick W. 
 Gooderson, Jr., of Engine Company, Bo. 3!5,'and Assistant Foire- 
 man Jamea Smith, of Hook and Ladder, Nol 2, whio weirle placed 
 la charge of the legislative interests of the officers; on what was 
 that basidd? A. On infoirmationi from varioiuis firemen whose 
 names I have already given, including Mr. Clifford. 
 
 Q. You say in this article for each bai-talion a collector was 
 appointed to raise thie necessary money, and a considerable 
 amount of money, which at one time amounted to $7,000, was 
 actually raised among the officers; on whialt was thaJt based? A. 
 Upon infoBRm'atiota detrived from firemen; I have named a number 
 of them; I can't call all by name; there are a dozen or moaie, 
 and I will give the names to the committee. 
 
 Q. Yotu say that after the Pavey bill had pasised the Asseanbly 
 the friewds of the bill went to Robertson and asked him to sub- 
 stitute the PaVey bill for his owm? A. Eiobertson hemmed and 
 hawed, and he said there were other matters befoire the oom.- 
 mittee of more importance than the firemen's bill, and would 
 give no indication as to when he would move it. 
 
 Q. On wWat was that based? A. Uppm the statement to me 
 by William Leairy of New York, in the employment of the Press; 
 he is business mamager of the Press. 
 
 Q. "Yoo say a few days later, and without notice to the friends 
 of this bill, Robertson called it up and had attachel to it a new 
 provision increasing the pay of the officers? A. My authority 
 for that is James R. Sheffield, now fire commissioner; he was 
 not at that time. 
 
 Q. You say it raised a storm at once? A. The Pavey bill was 
 unobjectionable to the city authorities; indeed, Mayor Strong 
 was known to favor it, and if it succeeded iin passing the Legis- 
 lature there would be no objection from the mayor or Governor. 
 
 Q. "What was that based upon? A. Upon information received' 
 from several persons who had talked with the mayor; the part 
 which relates to the Governor wais based on a conversationi I 
 had with! the Governor; hie did not say what he woiuld do, but 
 my interpretation of Ms attitude waia that he was mot opposed 
 to the bill unless the mayor was. 
 
 Q. You say in its amended form it was equally well known' to 
 be sure of defeat? A. That was based on the fact that thb 
 
29 
 
 board of estimiate and appoirtioiiiiient haid^ always refused to 
 carry out the permissive legislation, and the assumption that 
 the city anithorities were opposed to it. 
 
 Q. Did you say that a law was already in existeuioe enabling the 
 city authorities to increase the pay of the officers, and the boaird of 
 estimate and apportionment had refused to act under its provi- 
 sions; do you know thait to be a fact? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You say Eober-tson's amendment made tbis bill mandatkxry ; 
 you say tie firemen and their friends made a great ado, and so 
 ppoimpt were their protests that Robertson consented to have his 
 substitute bill committed to the cities committee; upon what was 
 that based? A. Upon proceedings in the Senate; Sheffield repre,- 
 sented the firemen, causing that to be done. 
 
 Q. You say, at tMs point, the true meaning of Eobertson's 
 amendment began to develop; the officers began to receive hints 
 from foremen and assistant foremen that what was needed was a 
 little " soap," and thalfc there were Senatws in Albany who were 
 not there for their health? A. That was based upon informiation 
 derived from firemen whose names I have given and whose 
 (names I will give; I should hare to refer to a memorandum I 
 made at the time. 
 
 Q. You say, at last, these suggestions took definite form, and 
 the president of the firemen's association was approaohed with a 
 proposiition to meet the officers in the " Boodle Fund " ? A Mr. 
 Clifford told me that. 
 
 Q. You say the officers of the department have an asisociatiion 
 of their own ; its president i^ John J. Bums, of Hook and Ladder 
 Oompany, 'No. 1; upon what iuifioirmation was that based? A. Mr. 
 Clifford. 
 
 Q. You say, in this article, that the Senators whose names 
 were mentioned among the iivemen as men requiring to be taken 
 care of, were Robertson, of Westchester; Eaiiues, of Ontario, atad 
 Ooiggeshall, of Oneida; what was that based upon? A. That was 
 based upon information from Clifford and Eothenhausler. 
 
 Q. Is Mr. Clifford in the committee room? A. He is. 
 
 Q. And Mr. Rothenhausler? A He is in the room. 
 
 By Senator O'Connor: ' 
 
 Q. The testimony you have given here as to what you have 
 stated is not your personal knowledge, but is informartion you 
 have received from men whose names are those you have named? 
 A. Precisely. 
 
 By Mr. Raines: 
 
 O. You describe yourself a^ editor and publisher of The Press? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
80 
 
 Q. Isthataooirporattion? A. Tes^ sir. 
 
 Q, Do j(m mem toi say you 'own amy stock! in the corporation? 
 A. I do toot orwn' any stadk reaJly; I do tentatively, as I am an 
 officer. 
 
 Q. Does it stand in your name? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Hoiw miiohi? A. I don't remember; just enough to qualify 
 me as an officer. 
 
 Q. The bulk of the stock of ithe ooirpoinaition is in the name of 
 whom? A. Henry L. Einstein is the proprietor; I am emiployeid 
 by the pai^>er asi editor and publisher. 
 
 Q. When did you take a position on this newspaper? A. On 
 the 31st of Janraary; I want that to ^e taken with the qualifica- 
 tion it might hare "been a day or two on either side of it. 
 
 Q. Since then' you hlave been managing editolr? A. I have 
 been editor; I am the responsible leditor of the piajwr. 
 
 Q. And you supervise whaitl is published? A. I dt»i 
 
 James R Sheffield, being duly swom m a witfcneiss and exam- 
 ined by Mp. Root, testified! afii follows : 
 
 Q. You reside in the city of New York? A. I do. 
 
 Q. What is your present official positioW? A. T am one of 
 the commissibners of the fire department of the city of New York. 
 
 Q. Sinoe what time have you held that ofSce? A. I think 
 since the 6th! day of March. 
 
 Q. PrioTt to that time what was youT bUisimess? A. Practicing 
 lawyer. 
 
 Q. Were you retained by the members of thie fiie depart- 
 ment to take dharare of a bill which was called the Pavey fire- 
 men's bill? A. T was retaibed bv what is Icnown^ als thie T^re- 
 men's Mutual Benevolent Assodation. 
 
 Q. Did yon have charge of it from the tiiinie the bill was intro- 
 duced? A. I did. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledsre of any money being raised with 
 reference to that bill, olr attempting to be rmsed? A. I have not. 
 
 Q. Do you know that amy was railsied? A. On the contrary T 
 am confident that no money was raised of any kind oir desietrit)- 
 tion whatever. ] 
 
 Q. Do you know of any fund on hand? A. There is no fund 
 on hand, and there has been no fund on hand for use in eolnnec- 
 tion with that bill, and I might sav the understanding arrived 
 at in the first conversation I had with the firemen is T>art of the 
 consideration under which T took charge off that bill; it was 
 stated that no money should ble railsedl, directly oir i'ndirectly, to 
 further its passage, nor should they go to Alb'any, nor shouild 
 they seeik, through friends in New York in politics, to change 
 Bentiment in regard to the bill, except so far as they affected 
 
81 
 
 public sentliueiit by statements of the needs of thie departmient, 
 and further than that I received a letttter from the ftoremen statiing 
 that they would not and had not raised any money in any way 
 to affect their bill, and that it was placed entirely in my hiaJnds 
 to look after, and that they woiuld be guided by Mr. Quigg and 
 myself entirely. 
 
 Q. Does this association indulde the officers; do you speak 
 for the officers or unifoirmed firemen? A. I am speaking for 
 the men; there are two organiizaJtlons, one known as) the Fire- 
 men's Mutuial Beneyolent Association, which is composed of 
 members who are not officers, and of members whoi Imye been 
 members of the association and advanced to the grade of officers, 
 who are allowed to retain mtembershipi but they have not the 
 power of voting; it is a benevolent association in all respects 
 and its books are open to inlspection. 
 
 By Senator MuUih : 
 
 Q. Do yota know of any funds being raised by the officers' 
 organization to influence legislation? A. I have nioi knowledge 
 whatever of any fund being raised or attempted to be raised 
 by the officers' organization ; I understand there is an organiza- 
 tion in the fire department among the officers; with that I am' niot 
 familiar, partly because I wais attorney of the filMnien's organikar 
 tion, and of the officers' organization I have simply heard since I 
 have been a member of the board of fire commissioners, and simply 
 know from being told that Captain Bums is the president of lit; 
 my information on the subject of the officers' assioiciattion does 
 not extend fu5?ther than such infoTmattSion asi I have indicated; I 
 may also say, in regard to this other bill in which I was inter- 
 ested, that I think I was the only person, with the exception of 
 tSr. Leary, the buisiness nuanageir of The "New York Press, who 
 journeyed to Albany in its interest or appeared there until the 
 time spoken of by Mr. Quigg; there was to have been a hearing 
 before the cities commiittee the day the Eobertiaon amendment 
 was reported, but for various reasons I did not have a hearing 
 that day, and soon after that my appointment as fire commiisi- 
 sioner made it ilmpropen that I should continue the relaftions of 
 . attorney and client with the association. 
 
 Q. Where was the bill at the time of your appointment? A. I 
 think in the Senate cities committee. 
 
 Q. How long after your appointment before it passed ; did yOu 
 take an interest in the matter after your appointment? A. I Md 
 take an interest in it; I thought the bill was right and was 
 anxious the bill isihlould become a law, and while I took noi active 
 interest I did' appear befoire the mayor, at the request of my 
 
32 
 
 brother ooammissioneiPS, and made an aifgument in favor of tke 
 bill. 
 
 Q. Wm yoiiM- sltualtion met that you would have knoiwrn if 
 ainj'thing of that character had been raised? A. I think I was in 
 a position to have known if money was being raised by the flre- 
 m,en for their bill, and I am confident there was no money raised 
 or attempted to be raised. 
 
 Q. What do you say abouit the amendmeait? A. Mr. Quigg has; 
 correctly stated whJatt the bill I was interested in provided for; 
 the oflacers' amendmlent was am entirely different matter, and I 
 had taken no interest in the merits of it; I knew nothing ablout 
 it and was mraoh surprised tb find that it had been attadhted to 
 the Pavey bill. 
 
 Q. Did you oppose vtc taivov^ the officers' amendment? A. The 
 boai'd did not favor the officers' amendment. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about ainything having been raised 
 in oonneotion/ with that amendiment? A. I dbi not. 
 
 Q. Were you in a position that you would have known? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q- I>id you hear ainything about it? A. Yes, sir; I heaa^d 
 rumors stating thialt it was being raised or in contemplation of 
 being raised. 
 
 Q. While yotu were connieoted with the bill had tlhie amenid- 
 ment been offered? A. The bill oaJme out of the oommittee witlh 
 the amendmient on ; the history of tihle bill has been told by Mr. 
 Quigg; I went to Albajny to mafcie an argument in faivor ol an- 
 other bill, and did make am argument 'Tuesday afternoon before 
 the judiciairy committee of the Semlaite, and had bteen promised a 
 hearing by the cities committee on the ftfemen's bill; if -I remem- 
 ber rightly this wajs a day or two befoire I toidk office; it was 
 Tuesday af temokjn when I got through! the heaPiing of the judiciiai 
 sales bill that I healrd that the Eobertson bill had! been reported 
 with this amenldment, providing for an increase of salaries for 
 the officers; I wenttj before the committee ajnid saw Senator Boibert- 
 aon and laisiked him. why it was done witihout giving me a hearing, 
 and he said he was ilnterested in thie officers as well as the 
 men, and he thought it was a fair thing to raise this saiairies all 
 around, anid when I said I was lonly interested in the firemen's 
 bill, and that I thtoiught it was unjust and' unfair to aiitlalclh airi 
 amsendment to the bill without consul ting me, his answer was 
 to the effect that he thoiuightt it right and much fairer to have 
 it done in thle interests of the offloera of the department; I think 
 that evening at a recepitaon at tihe house of Speaiker Fish I alsked 
 Senator MuUin to recommit the bill, bnt who it was that did 
 so I do not know, but I neicieiyed al tieliegram tIhe next dlay stlatiing 
 
33 
 
 the bill had been comimitted; resPy soon after that I was ap- 
 pointed a fire coommissioinier, and the fuirther Mstory of the bill 
 I know from hearsay; I did go to Albany again, but on amothier 
 matter, and it was the day the Paivey bill was reported' from the 
 Senate cdtiies oommittee without tbe amiendinent; at that tune 
 I hieiard a fujid was being raised; I have no knowledge whethter 
 the officers raised isiueh a fund or not. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any oppositidin having been mlade to tlhfe 
 bill by any of the Senators named? A. I think Senatlor Kainles, 
 so far as I know, voted for the bill, and at no time, so far as I 
 am informed, was he opposedi to thie flremlen's bill, and I think 
 the siamie is trite of Senatoir Ooggeshlair; as for Senator EObeirt- 
 son, he' saild he was in favor of the firemen having an increase, 
 bnt insisted that the officers also have an liincrease; that 1 
 deemed am unfriendly act and so stated. 
 
 Q. Is there anythilnjg else you desire to state? A. I can pro- 
 duce a letter if the committee so desire, writtien mie by one of 
 the flremien. stating that they would .not raise any money and 
 had not done so to afPeot thteir bill, and T can only renew my 
 statement that. I am sure I would have knoiwn if the firemen 
 attempted to raise any money, and am entirely confident that, 
 not a dollar was raised or attlempted to be raised diurinig my 
 connection with that Mil to furthter itis paissage. 
 
 By Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. Will you' be good enough ito give the sources of your in- 
 formation in regard to the raising of money by thie officers of 
 the departmient to secure this amendment on the bill? A. My 
 first information came from — I am not sure that I am able to state 
 where I first heard the rumor; I know I did hear it before the 
 conversation that I had with' Mr. Quigg; it wais in my mind when 
 I had thie conversation with Mr. Quigg; we had heard these 
 things and Mr. Quigg sent for me one night and told me he had 
 some iwCoMnartaon on this subject, and produced certain memio- 
 randa, whicih I think was the result of conversations thait he had 
 had with certain members of the fire department, and these memo- 
 randa related and were the general' resiults of the conversations 
 with firemen in relation to reoeSvilng. money; I later had a con- 
 versation with two of the firemen that he had mentioned by 
 name, in which some of the same informiaJfcion was given to me; 
 one of tihe fiiremen was Fdlreman OlifPord, anld one was Fireman 
 Kothenhauialer; I ought also to state in fairness that I have 
 had conversations with two of the officers of the department, 
 who have stated to me that they have not raised any mon:ey; the 
 officers were Johini J. Bums, Oaptato Gooderson amd Lieutenant 
 
Smitli, who arementionedl in tM& article, auu „rhoim I sent for 
 to come to headquainljers alfter reading this article, to see if I 
 could possess myself of My ikifomiationt 
 
 By Semaltbr Oantor: 
 Q. Are those men in court? A. I saw Buims here early this 
 m;orniiig, but I dM not see the otihter officers. 
 
 By Mir. Eoiot: 
 
 Q. T thilnik you stated tharti Senator Ooggeahall's position Was 
 always ' Ween in favor of the hill aind againjsitl the amiendlnlent? 
 A. I did not intenid to sio state; I understoioa he was in favor of 
 the increase of salary for the men, hut as to how he stowd on 
 the ajmiendm'ent I do not Icniow ; I understood th'at Senator Eiaames 
 was in favor of thie inoreaisie of safery for the* mien, but as to hloiw 
 he stood on thte officers' aimerndtaient I do not know. 
 
 Q. Did yoM have any conversation with either of thesf gentle- 
 men as to thteir position? A. I had had a conversiation with 
 Senator Eaines ilnl Albany, altbongh I do not think I can indicatp 
 the time wiltih any preciiseness, but I thinlc it was two oi- three 
 days before my appointment toi the fire c oramisisi oners ; perhaps 
 I can fix it more precisely; I think it was the day the Pavev 
 bill was reported from, the cities committee, and if- 1 remember 
 rightly, Baines remiairked to me tbat now thei'e being no further 
 opposition to the increase of pay for the firemen, he trasted there 
 would be no opposition to the increase of pay for the officers, and 
 I told him I knew of none, and at that time I dlid not Imow of 
 any formal opposition to an' increase of pay for the officers; 
 although T hiad been giiven to undetrsifcand that it was not favored 
 by the city aTithoritiesi. 
 
 Q. Was thiere a^ sepainate billl introduced increasing the pay of 
 the offioeirs? A. I have never kniowu' of a. bill being introduced In 
 increase thte pay of the officers itn the Semlate; there was, I think, 
 in the Asisembly by Ija Fettra;, and may have been in Hi . '.■'■<v-: ■ 
 but how or by whotai I am mot infoTmed. 
 
 Bt? Mr. Baines: 
 
 Q. You spoke of having sent for some officeiPs of fhp firemien's 
 ajssociati'on anid having an initeTview with them? A. Officers of 
 the department. 
 
 Q. Alnd having an tatierv3)ew wiibh thieira; when was th;it? A. 
 That interview was had on Thjuipsday afternoon of this weel;. 
 and two interviews were had yestetrday molrning. 
 
 Q. With whiQlm' did yoni talk oni Thniirsdnv? A. Lif^iHensiiTit 
 Smith. 
 
 Q. With whom did yiou talk on Friday? A. Buras and (^od- 
 
35 
 
 Q. Was thiat conversatSon hiaid between yoii ais oominfesioiier 
 and the men in yomr depairtmieint? A. It was. 
 
 Q. Pull board' present? A. 'No one but myself . 
 
 Q. Yoiu officially oallted thiem to ' interroigiate them? A. Yes, 
 sir; ordered them to h,ieadq|u'airters. 
 
 Q. Was thene a iiecord miade of the conversation you had with 
 them? A. None whatever; I simply desiired to possess myself of 
 the facts in this matter if I could. 
 
 Q. Did yofu inform them they oould tell you the troth im the 
 nrntter with safety to thkanselves, aiid that you would care for 
 them? A. I informed them that if the facts stated were true, 
 that the guilty men should suffer, and if they were not ittrue I did 
 not want the depiartment to suffer; I thought it wias' my dnlty to 
 do what I conJd to purge the department; I do not think I said 
 I would take care of them. 
 
 Q. ]3idn''t you imtitauate that it was in yonr power? A. If they 
 gained any such atnference I am sorry; I have mo recolleotiloin of 
 giving them the right to snoh an inference. 
 
 Q. Did yon have a full and fair conference? A. It extended 
 over 5 OE 10 minutes; I asiked them the questions, and iipdTi 
 their denial it could not extend very far. 
 
 Q. Who were these men yon heard were connected with thp 
 raising of money? A. I readi it in the artiicle in The Press, .iitI 
 heard it so stated. 
 
 Q. When did the first immor come to you that money was 
 being raised? A. It is difflcmlt to answer for the reason that 
 I can not tell when or in just what way it came'; I had receiVed 
 some informlatiOn before the first conversation with Mr. Qud'gg, 
 but it dildln't come from Mm. 
 
 Q. Where was the bill at the time you got that information? 
 A. That was before the amendment was presented to the bill, 
 or before I had known there was am amendlment to the bill 
 proposed. 
 
 -Q. How many interviews did you have with Raines with regard 
 to tie bill ? A. T think I only had WsA single interview ; it may 
 be I spoke to him aiboiut it some other time. 
 
 Q. Where was that conversaition? A. Ini the office of Joh!n 
 Kenyon, clerk of the Senate, in the Oapitol building. 
 
 Q. And from that time you had no knowledge of his beiing 
 unfriendly to your bill ? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. He voted for it on its passage? A. I have never seen the 
 vote for the bill. 
 
 Q. In regard to Senator Ooggieshlall, I take the liberty of asking 
 a (juestiopa in his beihfeilf, whiethier youi recetiived any diffenent 
 
36 
 
 infoimatioii in regard to Ms i*)teitito? A. I do nBt tMnfe I had 
 any interviews with Mtai about this bill imltSIl this momiing. 
 
 Q. Yon haive stated all tbat ocourred between- yom and Senator 
 Robertson? A. I think that is all; I may ha.ve said more as I 
 was qnite angry at the time and felt it to be unjust trea.tmtemt 
 
 to my bill. . i x-no 
 
 Q. The other bill you have spoken of is thie judicial sales bill? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 Q. You made a number of trips to Albany in the interest of 
 
 that bill? A. I haye. 
 
 Q. And incidentally looked after tM'Si bill? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. ComTersatioini may hlare oocurred tihat has passed from your 
 mind? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. For instance, in tbe committee-room you may have had a 
 conversa,tilon with Senator Ooggeshiall tUat hias passed from your 
 recolleotioai? A. Very piass4ble. 
 
 Senatoir Ck>ggesliiall.— With the pennolssion of thie committee I 
 will state that We did speak to me in the judiciary-room witji 
 reference to the bill, and I asserted tblat I would do all I could, 
 amd that I had already told Senator Ahieam, who wasi much 
 interested in the bill, that I should do sio. 
 
 Witness. — T am perfectly willing to take the Senatoi-'s word 
 for that, and I have no doubt it is so. 
 
 By Mr. Eaines: • 
 
 ' Q. I would like to get art the date you and Mr. Quigg had the 
 intei'view? A. It was Sunday night at the oflSoe of The Press. 
 
 Q. "WTio were present at the interview? A. I think no one was 
 present during thei most of that interview. 
 
 Q. Can you reoollect amy persion wUo was present, or wbo had 
 any jmrt in it? A. NO; I can only recollect that memibers olf Mis 
 staff came in and left the rooim frequently, as he was getting <mt 
 the momiing issue of the paper. 
 
 Q. When was that, with ireference to your appointment a.s fire 
 commissioner? A. Before. 
 
 Q. How long? A. Within 10 days. 
 
 Q. How came you to be there at that time? A. I was sent for 
 by Mr. Quigg. 
 
 Q. Was the subject of this bill taken uip between you and 
 discussed? A. Very seniousily at that time. 
 
 Q. When did you have any subBequent intervilews with hilm 
 with reference to this bill ? A. Very frequently ; sottnetimes wv^r 
 the "pholnie;" sometimes by diroppiing intoi The Presis (M(x\ 
 
37 
 
 Q. Did yoiu go before tBie mayor with (regard to tlie offiioers' 
 amendment? A. I did mot. 
 
 Q. With regaird to the provision for tJie firemen, maMng the 
 increase mamdJartory? A. It oamje up in a conyersiation I had 
 with the mayor, altlnoiugh I had not gone to tlhie nuayor tor tlhat 
 purpose, amd he asisiuired> me he was willing to have ilt maindiatory ; 
 that he dM not intend in his letter to Mr. O'G-rady to include 
 the firemen's bill; the law was mandatory as it stood, and the 
 letter in regard to the officers' bill is a permissive law ; the board 
 has acted under tha* law, burtj did nioitl fix the ^ariesi at thle limit 
 allowed by the law. 
 
 Q. This agitation of the matter of mamdiatory legislation in 
 regard to salaries oomimenced' in New York with regaird to 
 policemen's sialairies last year? A. I can't answer that 
 
 Q. That has brought up the matter in regard to mandatory legis- 
 lation, and there has been a great deal said in regard to it? A. 
 Yes; on thiat bill. 
 
 Q. Since that time this miatteir of nmndatory legislation, as 
 relating to other departments, bias been negiarided as iniportant? 
 A. There hajs been a good deal of it. 
 
 Q. Wlhlen did this agitatibn by thJe firemen in regard to makStng 
 the increase of pay miaJndaJtIary conmience? A. In NoTember; I 
 had been ooramsiel for the firemen in a case relatinig to the retire- 
 ment of a nuan and th^ placing of h li m* upon the pension fund; 
 we mandamjusied the commijssioimers and. compelled them to retite 
 him. 
 
 Q. How lately before thffis publication in The Press did you 
 have an interview with Mr. Quigg on any matter relating to the 
 flremien's bill? A. I had very frequent intemdewis with Mr. 
 Quigg, and I think as late as the day before this publication we 
 had an imterview together, and I thiiink the firemen's bill and 
 the substance of this publication came up. 
 
 Q. Were there any other bills discussed^ in thialt interview? A. 
 I think the judicial sales bill was disiciussed. 
 
 Q. Whiat titme of day was that? A. I think in the aftemoom, in 
 the neigh.boirhood of 6 o^dock. 
 
 Q. At that time there vreus, I suppose, a report of the regular 
 correspondents of The Press at Albany, with regaird to the actiiom 
 of the Senate judiciary committee on the judicial sales bill? A. 
 There had been a report to The. Press offtce, but my information 
 was derived from The Evening Post. 
 
 Q. That action was discussed between you and Mr. Quigg at 
 that intervilew? A. I think so. 
 
 Q. How long had it been since yon and Mr. Quigg had hiad a 
 discussion of the firemen's bill paievlous to that interview? A. I 
 
i 38 
 
 can't say; we were maiiily interested; in this judiciairy sales bill, 
 our firemen's biJl haiiing become ai law. 
 
 Q. "When did tha,t pass thie Senate? A. I aan't tell you; the 
 bill had p^issed the SeniaJtie, had been sent toi the mayor and 
 signed by the Governioir when this con'verisatioin was had. 
 
 Q. Was it three or foiur weeks or a momthi? A. I cajn't answer. 
 
 Q. Between its passage in the Stenate amd the day otP the 
 publication of this article had it been a subject of conveirBation 
 between you and Mr. Qnigg? A. It had 
 
 Q. The firemen's bill? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. The raising of money with regard to the firemen's bill? A. 
 I think that was the subject of discussion. 
 
 Q. Did you, at any time previotus to the day of tOiis poibliica,- 
 tion, hear Mr. Quigg mention the name of Senaitor Eiajnies in 
 connection with this bill? A. I thilnk we hare discussed this 
 subject pretty fully. 
 
 Q. In the diteicnssion of this corruption fund had Senattor 
 Raines' name been mentioned preyioius to the dlayi lof this pub- 
 lication? A. I am und-eir the impression it had. 
 
 Q. Can you state the tikne and place? A. I can not. 
 
 Q. State what Mr. Quigg said and what you said? A. I can 
 not state that; I can not state that the naimies of the Senators 
 mentionied in the artSde had been mentioned; I can not fix any 
 time; Mr. Quigg and I aire Intends and we had many conversa- 
 tions, from Itot Decembter, in connectioin with this bill. 
 
 Q. Were Mi-. Quigg and you interesited' in the passage of the 
 judicial -sales bill? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Mr. Quigg had gone toi Albany in connection with that bill ? 
 A. Yes, isl'r. 
 
 Q. He had been assi'Sting yon in; regard to both bills? A. Yes^ 
 sir. 
 
 Q. And taidug an active ilnterest? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And since the paissage of the firemen's bill, you and he had 
 CiOnversaltion in regardi to the juldioilal sales bill ? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In connection with that matter you discussed the matter 
 of the senators besides? A. I think we did. 
 
 Q. And as to whether Senator Eiaines was foir or against the 
 judicial sades bill; was that a topic of oonvensatiion? A. It was, 
 as it was very impoirtant to know our frienidsi. 
 
 O. Was there any time previous to the date of thisj 
 publiciaiion that mention was made between youj and Mr. Quigg 
 witTi regamd to tbe publication of matter in The Pressi? 
 A. There was. 
 
 Q. At how early a day? A. I think it was the day on which 
 Mr. Quigg went to Albany; he has testified asto whait "dayiitwas; 
 
I am. unable to tell, but it was at the time of the conversation 
 with Payu. 
 
 Q. Was that before the passage of the firemen's bill? A. It 
 was. 
 
 Q. The publication was not then made in reference toi this 
 bribery business in. The Bress, aud no refenenoe was naMe toi it 
 in The Press dlown to the time wWen Sematoir Elaiines in the 
 judiciary committee voted algaatost repoirtiag favorably the judi- 
 cial sales bill? A. Not tkat I know of. 
 
 Q. Were tlhere times im that mionth wM'ch pasised from the tfiane 
 of the enactment of the firemen's baill down to the time oif this 
 publication, that I\rr. Quigg informed yon that he shauld at the 
 ending of the judicial sales bill matter, publish this bribery 
 matter? A. I do mot think he ever stated at just ^^■hiLt point he 
 would pmlnt it, but I understood that was his intentilom:; I will 
 detail the conversation between me and Mr. Quigg; as near as I 
 can fix the time it was the second or third week before the 
 publication, Mr. Quisrg aisked me about the publication of tlie 
 facts that he had in his possession, and I stated that I regretted 
 exceedingly, as a fire commissioner, to know that he had thjose 
 facts, and that there was a necessity for publishing them, be- 
 cause it was a reflection upon our department, and that I looked 
 forward with a greait deal of trepidation to the publishing of 
 anything that showed such a state of affairs in the department; 
 that I. as oommissiomeT, wonld have to take notice of; I think 
 Mr. Quigg addressed to me this question: "As a citizen of this 
 State, hlaviiuig knowledge of these facts, wioiuld yotu be willing 
 to be a party to their suppression?" Iisaid I would not be; tlhat 
 if there were facts, the public should know them; I think that 
 was about the substance of the conversatiion that I had .with 
 Mr. Quigg. 
 
 Q. Didn't he inform yoai he would publish them? A. He did 
 not at that time; I always understood' that he would publish 
 them. 
 
 Q. Was there any subsequent conversation between, you and 
 Mr. Quigg imtil this 6 o'clock interview? A. I think there were; 
 these facts were in my mind vesry constantly, and so it is very 
 likely when I met Mr. Quigg siom.e reference wais made by one 
 or the other of us; if I could have felt thfey were mot tnie I should 
 have been very unwilling that they should be published. 
 
 Q. At 6 o'clock of this day Mr. Quigg sent for you? A. Xo; 
 about 2 he wanted to know if I could meet him thJat afternooa; 
 and the first arrangemieint in the afteinnoon was that I ^wrald 
 stop on my way to the fire department; I was delayed and I 
 stopped on my way homie. 
 
40 
 
 Q. Yiou; dM meet? AL Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At what time? A, Betweem 5 and 6 ofdock. 
 
 Q. Whleire? A. Mr. Qtdgg's office. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Qiiigg have with him th;e Albiatoy dispiaitches of Ms 
 paper? A. I did not see any. 
 
 Q. Did he state to you the antion of the ju'diilciary committee 
 with regardi to the judicial sales bill ? A. He did. 
 
 Q. Then did he say to yon it was time the bribery matter came 
 up? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long was that imterview witih Mr. Quigg? A. I shiould 
 tMnk aboiut a half an hiorar in length. 
 
 Q. Did he renew his inquairy as to -whethfer you wished to be 
 a party to the suppTiessioiii of that infoimatioini? Ai He did not; 
 he knew my plosition; hie dleclaiPed positively that he iJntendedl to 
 print the facts. 
 
 Q. Did hie submit the written article to yiouj? A. He did not. 
 
 By Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. I undiearstood yon to say that yon dad' not believe these 
 facts and made every effort to prevent thiein piuMiicaitlon? A. 
 That is stronger thian I would put it; I meant that with the in- 
 formation I had i felt that I Wad no right to try to isnppress the 
 facts in his posseission. 
 
 By Senator Pound : 
 
 Q. Yotu obtained your infotrtmatiOn from Mr. Quigg instead' of 
 communiloaJting information toi him? A. I doubt ilP I ever com- 
 municated to Mr. Quigg any facts in negard to the raisiing of 
 money in connectiou with tlie firemen's bill ; I had no such facts. 
 
 By Senaltlor O'Connior: 
 
 Q. Do I understand you to say that tiiiese offtoera themselves 
 had been engaged in any effort to raSlse a fund; thiart yoia stated 
 to Quigg th^t fact ouglht to be publiisihedl? A That was part 
 of my belief. 
 
 Q. At any time, in your connection with the case, was any 
 fact stated! that, directly ol* tnidireotly, connected any Seniattor 
 with what offlcers had b^en doing with reference, to the raising 
 of money? A. I have never learned any flajcts thlat dinecftly 
 oomnected any Senator with anything the officers may have been 
 doing in the way of radsjlng money. 
 
 By Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. Has the fire department taken any actiou with regard' to 
 this matter? A. The question oamie up at the meeting of the 
 
41 
 
 coniiuissioners on Thursday as to whJetlier alt that time we should 
 take action, but it was dietemined, In view of the fact, it was 
 determined that we would delay action until Monday; and: when 
 yesterday we learned of the Senate resolution to investigatje we 
 felt it better to wait, in order that anything we might do would 
 not interfere with the investigation here, and I dO' not think 
 the department will take any action until this investigation is 
 concluded. 
 
 Lemuel E. Quigg, being recalled and examined by Mr. Elaines, 
 further testified ais follows: 
 
 Q. I think I last asked you about your stock, was it owned by 
 Edwin Einstein oir Henry L. Einstein? A. Henry L. 
 
 Q. You were fomnerly employed upon The Tribune; in what 
 capacity? A. Ais an editorial writer. , 
 
 Q. "Wliiere were you before that? A. Pri;oir to that my first 
 employment as a reporter was on the New York Times; subse- 
 uently I went to Flushing on the Flushing Timies. 
 
 Q. How long were you connected with tihle Flushing TSlmes? 
 A. I think three or four years. 
 
 Q. How long were you connected with the New York Times? 
 A.. I think six months or a year. 
 
 Q. How long with The Tribune? A. Jusf 10 yeairs almost to 
 a day. 
 
 Q. How did you come to be interested iln the pasisiage of the 
 firemen's salary bill? A. I earsie to be intferested in it as the 
 result of relations that had gi-own up between mie and the letter 
 cairiei-s; there is an affiliation of relations that has^ grown up 
 between letter carriers, firemeii and policemeui 
 
 Q. You had taken an interest ra the increase of pay of the 
 letter carriers? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. So you became interested in the increase of firemen's pay? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And al the time you were a candidate was the bill under 
 discussion last fall? A. It had been all the smnmer. 
 
 Q. During Ihe sumimer and fall you were talking with them on 
 the subjecr of getting tLeir pay incineased? A. They came to 
 see me. 
 
 Q. With -v^hom dM you conduct your business? A. Wlhiat do 
 you mean by that? 
 
 Q. Hold your conversatilons with whom? A. With the fireman 
 who was then president of their organization, Mr. Grahaim. 
 
 Q. Did you talk with him alone or with committees of their 
 orgaTvization? A. Not with committees; the organiaaitita matter 
 did not take definite form until about the presentation of the 
 bill to the Legislatiuire. 
 
Q. Didn't it take soime deliniie form during your oairaipaigu for 
 Congress? A. It did not. 
 
 Q. Didn't you and they have some under standiug aib that time 
 iin regard to your taMng aiTive meiajsures in regiard to some bill? 
 A, They knew all summer long I should. 
 
 Q. With what comjoittee of flremem did yonx have amy under- 
 standiaa^? A. T have told you T had no undierstaiidiiin' vvitli 
 any committee of firemen ; I had no understaindimg at all. 
 
 Q. Did this Oifflcer, (xratara, represent thiein entirely? A. I 
 had no conversation with aiiy other firemen than Mr. Grraham 
 until aboiut I>ecember of last year, until some time in December, 
 when he asked me to meet .Vfr. SheffleM. 
 
 Q. And. then yoiu, in piursiuiaince of the understajnidtng of the 
 summer, that you would endeavor to assist in securing that 
 legislation? A. J. do not want that characterized as am under 
 sta;nding; there was none. 
 
 Q. Didn't you say you would? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You never said you would s'ux)port a bill m'aking the salary 
 mandatory, previous to Ifecember? A. No, silr. 
 
 Q. Nothing passed beUveen you amd the flremien's representa- 
 tive upon which such a construcfSlom could be made by the fire 
 men? A. I know there was not. 
 
 Q. \ oil do uo't deal ilu obli(|:iiity? A. I will speiaik definitely: 
 I listened to Graham in an t;xtremely respectful way. 
 
 Q. Didn't you satisfy tbem in regard to your favorable state 
 of mind? A I did not say that. 
 
 Q. Ywi are entirely sure that you did not commit yourself in 
 favor of such a bill until December? A. Not until Jamuiairy. 
 
 Q. You left the firemen during that summer to feel in doubt 
 as to your attitude? A. I didn't leave them in anything. 
 
 Q. Were they asking you to favor it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You say you did not tell them you faviored thte bBll? A. 
 No, sJlr. 
 
 Q. Where did you leave them? A. I say I ihaive left thiem 
 nowhere, and T think T stood by them pref±y well. 
 
 Q. When you left them nowhere you mean youi stood by them? 
 A I did stand by them. 
 
 Q. That exppessSion that you did not leave them, in slang 
 phraseology is interpreted thai: you stood by them,- you dad not 
 tell them you wonld? A. I did not. 
 
 Q. When did you m&ke your first, trip to Albany in the in- 
 terests of that bill ? A. I do not think I went there In the in- 
 terest of the bill until the day when the bill was repoirted fi-ora 
 the Senate committee; I do not remember that I did. 
 
 Q. Keported without the amendment or with? A The day on 
 which I bad my talk with Payn. 
 
4S 
 
 Q. You had been in Albany during the winter? A. Tes; two 
 or three times. 
 
 Q. What bill wer.^ von looMiig after? A. I never had been 
 there on the subject of bills. 
 
 Q. Didn't you go to Albany to look after the judicial sales bill? 
 A. Not until that day. 
 
 Q. That the first time yon brought u^) the subject in Albany 
 of the judicial sales bill? A. No: 1 was there on one ocicasion 
 prior to that, but T did not go on that bill. 
 
 Q. When you were there previous tc that were these bills 
 brought up? A. Yes, sir; both times. 
 
 Q. When was that? A. I do not reniembeir when it was, but 
 it was a month or six weeks before tlie time I have mentioned ; 
 I think there was a lapse of a mouth or six weeks. 
 
 Q. With whom did yon talk on that first trip, on the subject 
 of these two bills ? A. I can't be sure; I talked with nearly 
 everybody J knew. 
 
 Q. Did you talk with any of the Senators you have mentioned 
 in this article? A. 1 tliinl: T did with Senator Baines. 
 
 Q. State your conversation with him in Albany? A. It would 
 be difficult for me to state my conversation with him. 
 
 Q. It is as eaisy to state a conversation with hiTm as to publish 
 hearsay matters about him? A. T asked him to smpport the bill; 
 I don't know ]nst what I said; I told him somlethlLng about what 
 rhe bill was, undotubtedly; I spoke to him about both bills, u,l- 
 1 hough I had had one other con\ersation; my conversation in 
 Albany with Senator Haines ^as very brief; I have told you all 
 I know of it. 
 
 Q. You asked Mkn to support both bills? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. "VATiiajt did he say? A He said with regard to the judicial 
 sales bill that he had not had time to look into it, and with 
 regard to the firemen's bill, I think he said he would support it 
 or somethiing that led me to thiiink he would. 
 
 Q. That is the limit of that conversation so far as your meanory 
 serves you? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where was it? A. In a room in the Kemmore Hotel, I 
 think. 
 
 Q. You were then in Senator Matfs room? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. This conversation was iln his private room? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. He was there? A. I do not remember whether he was 
 or not. 
 
 Q. It Avas otn the occasion of his visat to Albany which we all 
 read about? A. Yes; I went with him. 
 
 Q. It was in his room in the Kenmore that you interviewed 
 these Senators? A. Yes, sir. 
 
44 
 
 Q. Did yoTi siee Senator CoggeshlaJl oni that trip and talk with 
 him? A. I am not sure; I think I wrote to him about it. 
 
 Q. Jn Senator Piatt's room didin't you have a conversation 
 with' Semator Ooggeishall? A. It is quite possible; I dJon't re- 
 member it. 
 
 Q. You do not remember what hie totld you with regard to his 
 possible acftBon? A. I remember he told me lue would support the 
 firemen's bill. 
 
 Q. Did he supiiort the bill? A. I do not remembier; I am quite 
 sure he did; I have never seen the vote. 
 
 Q. Did yon talk on that same trip with Senator Bobertson? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. When next did you see or have a conversation with eithfer 
 of these three Sleinators. oau the subject of either of the two bills? 
 A. My impression is thlat it was on thie ocoaisiota of my second 
 visit to Albany. 
 
 Q. The day of tJhe reporting of the Eavey bill by the Senate 
 committee? A. Precisely; I talked with Senator Bobertson. 
 
 Q. Detail the conversartilon ? A. I toldl Sematotr Eobertsion that 
 I understood there was going to be no further objecrtion to thie 
 passage of thb Pavey bill, and he said that hie so uoidierstooid also. 
 
 Q. Anytbinig said with regard to p^ttfiing the officers' amend- 
 ment in a separate bill between you and Senator Robertson? 
 A. No, sit. 
 
 Q. Or in regard to you supplolrtinig the officers' bill separately? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is tWatt all you remember? A. Thlat is the substance of it. 
 
 Q. Did you hlave any talk about the judicial saltes bill with 
 him? A. I think not. 
 
 Q. Did youi talk with Senator Ooggeisihail on that trtilp? A. No. 
 
 Q. Did you talk with Senator Eiaipes? A. I think I did witb 
 Eaanes. 
 
 Q. Where dild you have aJni interview at tihiat time? A. My 
 impression is thlat it was in thfe judiciary OoimmiJttee room; I am 
 not siire. 
 
 Q. Detail the conversation? A. I oould mot dietflail it, iit made 
 so slight an impression on my mind; T asked bi-m, ufoldoubtedly, 
 to support the two Mils, and his statement in regard to tbe fire- 
 men's bill was an assurance of not opposing it tni litts oriigtnal 
 form, iand in regard to the real estate bUl he was entirely non- 
 committal ; be bias been in mucb of the conversation I have hiad 
 with him. 
 
 Q. That all you can recollect iln regard toi the conversation? 
 A. I don't nemembler ilt ini dfetail. 
 
45 
 
 Q. At thlat time were you on Meadly terms with all of tbese 
 three Senajtoirs? A. I aissmne sol 
 
 Q. NortMng iippleasiant ibtetween you? A. Nottihmg at all; T 
 had not kkilown Senator Eoblertson. 
 
 Q. Had yora met Mr. Bainies imi New York amd had ai con^'^irtsa- 
 tion with him on the subject o£ these bills? A. Yes; it was thf 
 longiest conversia'taOn, I Wad with him. 
 
 Q. Whietn was that with relerenoe to the time you mtet hiJTn in 
 Albany? A. My impression is that it was before it 
 
 Q. What was thie condition of the bill at thati time? A. I aui 
 unable to isiay. 
 
 Q. Had it passed the Assembly? A. My impiression is it 
 had- 
 
 Q. Was it before the offlioers' amendment was attachedi to it 
 and reported from tihe oommittee? A. I think it was. 
 
 Q. Wh'ere was that conversatiom? A. In Senator Piatt's 
 oflfjce. 
 
 Q. WhiaJt was your business there at that time? A. I dio not 
 rememibietp. 
 
 Q. Were youi there to see Senator Piatt, oir meet the Senators 
 from Albany? A. I was not there to meet the Senators froim 
 Albany. 
 
 Q. They hlappeneid to be there? A. They were there whien T 
 came in. 
 
 Q. State that conversation? A. I told Mr. Eaines that I was 
 vpry much interested in two bills that were in Albany, the flre- 
 nuen's bill and thIe judiciial isales bill; I stated that the flremetfs 
 , bill was a salary bill, and raised the salaries of the firemen to 
 the same that policemlen were now receiving; I reminded him 
 of the fact that there had been police legislatiMi by the previlous 
 liegislatUiTe, and that police bills hiad been passed increasing the 
 salaries; I told Mm I thought the firemen's bill much more jusl 
 than the otheiri meaisuTe; that they worked longer hour's; were 
 on duty all the time, and that it did not need to be stated that 
 it was a specially hazardous duty, and that: i!f there was any 
 proprSlety in increasing the salnries of the policemen there was 
 much more in increasing thosie oif firemen; I said that the bill 
 had been i!ntix)duiced in a, previous Legislature but had failed of 
 passage; that the policemen's bill had been referred foir it in 
 llie previous Legilsila,ture'; I told Mtm I was sui^ there was no 
 opposition to the firemien's bill on the part of the local author- 
 ities; that was the sense of my statement to him; he replied that 
 he hadn't paid much attention tO' it, but that he would probably 
 suppotrt it. 
 
46 
 
 James B. SlieffieM, being recalled and further examined, testi- 
 fied as follows: 
 
 By Senator! O'Qotanor: 
 
 Q. Prfflor to the pnib'licaition of the aii'ticle on Thursday morning 
 had yon amy kmowledlge thiait the chanacter ofl any Senator was 
 to be attacked? A. ^'o, sir; I had not. 
 
 By Senatoir Ooiggeshall: 
 
 Q. What did yon umderstand my attitude to be in reference to 
 the ftremjen'is ibiLll? A. I thouiglit yonr attitude was friendly. 
 Recess tafeen until 2.30 o'clock. 
 
 At 2.30 o'clock the committee reconvened pursnajnt; to recess 
 taken. 
 
 Senator O'Connor stated! that it was the intention of the iJegisi- 
 lature to adjooom finally on May Oth, and th^ it wasi the sense 
 of the committee thatt tMls ilnvestigatioiQ should be as continiuous 
 as possible; that the comm,itt)ee was willipg to sit Saturday 
 evening and Monday, and also willing to continue investigation 
 every night upon the following week in Albany. 
 
 James B. OlMfoTd, being recalled as a witness and examined 
 by Mr. Etoot, testified! as follows: 
 
 Q. What is your oocupiatilon:? A. Fireman-. 
 
 Q. Wh'at is yotxr resild'emce? A. Thlree hundred and twenty- 
 four Ea&t Nineitieenth street. 
 
 Q. You are a member of the uniformed foiTe amd not an officiei"? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long have you been a member of the depai-ttntot? A, 
 tSix years. 
 
 Q. With what compay? A. Engine Compainy, No. 2, located 
 in Eighty -fifth street. 
 
 Q. Is there an association of the members of the department? 
 A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. What ils that called? A. Firemen's Mutual Benevolent 
 Association, 
 
 Q. Is there also an association of the ofliciers of the depart- 
 ment? A. 1 haJve hfeiard so>. 
 
 Q. What is that called? A. Association of the Offlcei's of the 
 New York Filre Department. 
 
i7 
 
 Q. Are you a inemtoiei' of tihe Firemen's Benevolent Associaticm ? 
 A. Yes, sir; itisi prelsi'dent. 
 
 Q. How long have you been its pateisldjent? A. Since the 1st 
 of December last yeair. 
 
 Q. Wtio aire the othfer officers of Firemen's Mutual Benevo- 
 lent Assoteiatilon? A. Jam.es Halpin, first vice-presideiit; second 
 vice-president, James Eyam; financial secretairy, Frederick Eoth- 
 enhausler; recording secretaJBy, Henry Hauck; treasurer, James 
 Conway; then we have a legislative committee consisting of 13 
 members, one man repi^esenting each fire district in the city of 
 New York; we have also one representative on tlie arMtlration 
 committee from each fire dfetrict in the citv of ISTew York; we 
 have also a eommittee elected auinually by the officers, a com- 
 mittee of five, known as the organization, whose duty it is to 
 keep tlie members of the associati'on's dues paid prompitly; th'e 
 duties of the arbitration committee is to adjust and settle all 
 differences wiUiin the associaJtion, and the diuty of the legislative 
 committee is to attend to matters of the association so far as 
 legislation is concerned. 
 
 Q. Weme you a member of the legdlslative committee? A. Yes, 
 sir: by virtue of my office as president I am a member of all 
 committees. 
 
 Q. Did yon take an active interest in the preparatiou and 
 treatment offl the bill for the increase of firemen's pay? A. I did. 
 
 Q. The bill introduced by IVljr. Pavey in the Assembly? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you remember the fact of that Mil passing the Asisemi- 
 bly? A. Yes, siir. . 
 
 Q. Do you remember the time when that bill or a similar bill, 
 which was iintroduced in the Senate, was reported to the Senate 
 by the Senate committee on cities? A. I can't say I remember 
 the exact date ; I remember the fact. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have a cotnversation — do you rem'ember the 
 fact that when the bill was first repotrted in the Senate commit- 
 tee on cities there was attached to it an amendment to increiai'se 
 the salaries of th'e officers of the department? A. I so under- 
 stood. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have a coinversation with Assistant Fo'reman 
 Quinn of Engine Company 18? A. I did. 
 
 Q. Was thiat conversation witli regard to legislation or an 
 increase of salairles of officers and memiblers of the fire depart- 
 ment? A. It was. 
 
 Q. Where was it? A. Daly's Theatler. 
 
 Q. When was it? A. On the 6th of March. 
 
 Q, At what lime of day? A. Seven fortT-flve p. m. 
 
48 
 
 Q. State the conTersation? A. T was detailed for theater duty 
 at Daly's ITi'eater, Twentv-iiinth street and Sixth: avenne; as I 
 wa,s about to enter the theater I saw waiting for mie Aesistant 
 Foremain O'Connor, who is well known to rae, h^ being a meiriber 
 of tihe association previoiis to being promoted; hie still retains 
 membersMp in the association, bnt does mot hlave a voice or a 
 vote in thle proceedings; the following conversation, ensued: "I 
 have been appointed a comlmittee of onie from the Officers' Asso- 
 ciation of Firemen, for the purpose of cioming toi see yoiu as 
 president of the Mremen's Mutuajl Benevolent AssociaJtSioin, to 
 see if something oonldi not toe done towa)rd hiaving ouw saJ'airy 
 bill attended to at Albany?" I inqiuited of him wlhiat infoimiajtion 
 OP knowledge he possessed on the subject, and hie isaSid hje had 
 full infolmiiation that tbat Mil of oiulrs nevein woiullid be repotrtled 
 from thie Senaite committee witihioiut the use of money; th'at the 
 officers of the fire depairtOiient hiad Oomue to the conclusion to pay 
 $15,000, as thaJt was the sum asked for from them, and we were 
 expected to provide $30,000, makimg $45,000 foir tie successful 
 passage of that bill; I aisked him hk>w hie neceived the information 
 and from what sonrces it oame, atnd he said it came directly from 
 a gentleman by the naime of Lou Payn, and h!e suggested that T 
 should meet the president of thle officers' assocSiation, John J. 
 Bxirns, and try and see if we coiild not effect a conisolidation of 
 interests; he pemindled me of the fact that the constitutional 
 amendment forbade onr looking foir an imcrease of salary for 
 the next 10 yeairs, anid th^t nioiw was the "golden opportuniity 
 and chance of our liv^es to hjave the bill passed," and thIaJtl it 
 would never leave that committee wSttihout the usie of money; 
 he said that Senatoir Eiobertson would never allorw sthe bill to 
 come out of the coanmittee unless thle money wals' forthlcoming; 
 I told Mm that in this miatter I was entinely powerless, as presi- 
 dent of the aissociationi, to act in the matter, and advised him 
 to conrespond with the chaiirmiani of the legislative committee, 
 Ml'. Eeagan, to see if he could effect a settlemient; my object 
 in stating that was to make it clear and complete, foP, we had 
 rome to the cionclusion.' at a mieetftng previous to lose our increase 
 of salary nather than put up a penny in 'the interest of the. 
 passage of thle bill. 
 
 By Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. Did he state that? A. I state aboiut the snibstance as I 
 have statedi it. 
 
 Q. Did you state to thiis persf)t) that you toad derided to lose 
 your bill ra,thei' than advance any money? A. T said to hita, 
 
49 
 
 " We didB't have a penny of money an.d had no imtention of rais- 
 img money to pia^s our bill. 
 
 Q. Did he state what thie officers werte doing? A. He said 
 the officers wene collecting miomiey and intended to put theat 
 money up there, and that if the money for the passage of the 
 bill was not forthcoming the Pavey bill woiuld be sacrificed. 
 
 Q. Did he say aaiythiiDig to you about Mr. Payn, telling you 
 who he was or what qualifioatiloins he had? A. He only said to 
 me I ought to have somie knowledge of Payn and the kind of a 
 gentleman he was; I didn't happen to possess amy knowledge of 
 Payn; I am niot acquaamted with him. 
 
 Q. Did he siay anything about the prospect or certainty of thte 
 bill passing if Payn had charge of it? A. He said anything 
 Payn took hold of he was sure of pas'siSng; that the people were 
 all with him in Albany. 
 
 Q. Did he say who else, olr who in behalf of the officers was 
 handling this money? A. John J. Bums, president of the asso- 
 ciation, was a personal friend of Lou Payn, of whom Payn thought 
 considerable; I desire to state that about the time the conversa- 
 tion took place our bill wals in a precarious condition. 
 
 Q. What was its condition? A. The bill had been recommitted; 
 it had first been reported favorably and then recommitted, and 
 wMle standing in that position this gentleman; approached me; 
 I took the whole conversation and submi'tted it toi Mr. Quigg, 
 with all other information we had received conceming this mat- 
 ter; the minute that this amendment was proposed! to go on we 
 deemed it an act of injustice on the part of our superior officers 
 in thie fire department, and thought best to go to work to find 
 why this amendment was put on after; I caused an investigation 
 to be made by the officers of the assoiciation ; I instructed them 
 to find out as muioh as possible in regard to this thing, and we 
 brought it to Mr. Quigg withomt solicitation and telling him of 
 the firm sitamd we were about to take, and also in the event of 
 the bill meeting with disaster asked him whether he would 
 publish iUe facts; we intended to make the facts known to the 
 citizens of this city. 
 
 Q. Did you aoquiire any infoirmation at any tilm'e through 
 Fireman Eothenhausler? A. Yes, sir; we investigated this mat- 
 ter and he acted under my instructions. 
 
 Q. What did he do? A. I received information from Fireman 
 William Gordon, a membter oifl thte officers' association, and a 
 person whose name is Patrick O'Reilly, tha* a gentleman haJd 
 been around making collections from officers for the purpose of 
 advancing the clause of this amendment, and hie, in the oneantime, 
 P. 7 
 
50. 
 
 naxL aicfd; ana tniait M!a widoiw Wad ttoe IMainoe of t(h!e money in 
 her hianidls; asnid that thfe people whlo had gdlveipi the money to 
 him endea-TOired to haive the momiey retnimed to themi, amd thfe.t 
 the widow had taJjen a stand and refused to return the mioine;'; 
 Mreman Elothenhaiusler and myself wient to the house of this 
 widow, No. 813 avenue, and we questfonedi the 
 
 woman concerning the ma,tter; we told her we had no desilre to 
 know where the momey aame from or anything in ©onnectioM 
 with the matter, but heaird that some people were making unjust 
 claims a-ganmst her foir mtomey she had received, and we dild not 
 desire her to be troniblledl in thJat kinid of a way; the woman 
 started and told us about how her husband u^eid to tell her 
 about hiis business, and had left the house that Siaituiriday evening, 
 with a satchel to make colliectioms, but that she didn't think he 
 had collected any moniey, for he came back sick and disgusted, 
 and said he was goiiing to let the whole buisiniesisi go; we told 
 her we didn't oairie to hear aiblotut that, but the most we were 
 interesteid in were people mlakinJg unijust claimis against hter; 
 she asked us if we reponesemtledl th'e officers of the association:; 
 we told her no; she said she had a list of thie namesi of thioisie 
 wbio were going to oontlriibiute thie mioniey, but we told her' we 
 didn't caire about getting thatti lifet; and thieini she said, "Yoiu' 
 people nepresent a gentlemaui by the. maaie of Biobertson; " amd 
 we isai'd, "We don't ktoow hikni; who is he?" and she said, "Mr. 
 Bobertson i? a Senator; that is the gentleman who has got charge 
 of our laiffairs; my husbarad told mte' so; " she saild, "I don't know 
 whether my huisWaind has got amy money, but if he has I will 
 return it to yotui;" we biPought thiatt matter to 'the editor 'Of The 
 Press. 
 
 Q. Did you send Mr. Eothenhausler to anyone else connected 
 with the officers' of the aissocilartioiD]? A;. Yes, isiri; James J. Smith, 
 assistant folreman of Hook and Laldider, No. 2; I umdersitiooid' he 
 was one of the legislative committee of their association, and 
 I sent to him to ge* as much information' fromi Simith as posisiible. 
 
 Q. Did you see him go in Smith's? A. I stood across the 
 street watching him, and he oatoe out and reported to mie just 
 what is oontaiined in hisi sttlatement. 
 
 Q. Do you know anythiinig about a 'dinner ait the Moirton House 
 before this tiine? A. I jaist heard from some fliremen that gave me 
 the infolrlmation cionoerning a dilnner at the Morton House, at 
 which the officers of their assiociation, attended, together with 
 Payn and EiObertson; the fireman whloi gave thie infonmation 
 could not state where he got it froto for fraternal reasions. 
 
 Q. How many officers are there in the Are department? A. 
 One hlunldred and ninety-eight 
 
51 
 
 Q. How distributed? A. Fomemian, deputy cMief of department, 
 deputy chief aoidl dhiefs of battalion, foremen and assisitamt 
 foremen. 
 
 Q. Do you know the number of each class? A. A deputy chief 
 of department, 13 chiefs of battailion, and I don't know the num- 
 ber of captaius or deputy assistant foremen. 
 
 Q. What is thie battaJiom organization? A. Thlere are 13. 
 
 Q. In thie entire city? A. Yes, silr. 
 
 Q. The entire foirce is composed in these 13' battaliions? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you learn amytMngi about how this collection of money 
 was being made? A. I undlerstood each battalion had bad a 
 collector who was suppiosed toi collect this money. 
 
 Q. Did you learn the names of any of thje collectoirs? A One 
 man I lealrmied of was Assistant Tobin, of Company 23. 
 
 Q. Prom whom did you learn that? A. Some members ha^e 
 stated positively that they have conveyed money toi him at dif- 
 ferent times in envelopes. 
 
 Q. How many others? A. The rest were discovered by other 
 members of our association. 
 
 By Mr. Kainies: 
 Q. Any other facts youi are familiar with? A. Outside of the 
 fact that our interests were abandoned in the Senate by Senator 
 Eobertson our cause was championed by Senattoir John F. Ah^WTi, 
 who moved the bill and urgedi its passage. 
 
 By Senator Muiliiin: 
 
 Q. Aheam has a brother on the force? A. Yes, sia". 
 
 Mr. Elaines moved to strike the reply that " after ouir interests 
 were abandoned in the Senaifce by Senator Robertson " from the 
 record. 
 
 By Senatolr O'Oonnor: 
 Q. Do yon know anything about it as a faict? A. No, sir. 
 Witness' " No, sir " strickeni out. 
 Motion granted amdl ireply strdlckem out. 
 
 By Mr. Eiaines: 
 
 Q. Do you know Stenator Aihieam? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did you say thiis dinner was given where Eoberteon 
 and Payn attended? A Morton House. 
 
 Q. What tim«i? A. I can't remember the month; it was in 
 March about the time the bill wais pending. 
 
 Q. From whom did youi neceive the ilnfoirmation? A. Fireman 
 Gorgan. 
 
52 
 
 Q. Whose dinmer was it? A. That is aill I know aboiiit tlie 
 dliinner. 
 
 Q. Was it some flreanlen'si assaoiartioin dinnieir? Al. Yeia 
 
 Q. The offlcars miet representatives finom Albany at" that din- 
 mer; did Grorgan say he was there? A. Noi, sir; he received his 
 infomiation friom -an' officer of the fire department. 
 
 Q. Did hfe state from' whom? A. Ifo, sir. 
 
 Q. If these "two gentlemen should say they had not been at 
 a dinner at that house in tihiree years, would thlere be any further 
 Information' yom could give about it? A. No, siir. 
 
 Q. You Clan not give us the sotmrces of Groirgan's infoirauatliton? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You have told us the widow told yotu she Wad heaird from 
 her deceased husband in his lifetime something about coillect- 
 ing? A. Ye®, sir. 
 
 Q. And you have toM ail yotgl heard from any qnarten iini regard 
 to this matfcteri? A. Outside the imformaiiion my brother men 
 have given, members have given me. 
 
 Q. Yoiu hiawe told all thtey gave yon except whiat yon got frolni 
 Smith? A. I have told leverythinlg except what Smith gave 
 Eothenh^ausler. 
 
 Q. Have yon told all the iinlEoirmatiion you hiave got from any- 
 body except that? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Youi have told all yon ithdidated to Smith? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I hiave noit heardl yoiui mention the niamie of Kailnesi? A. I 
 never heard the name of Eaiilnes mentioned. 
 
 Q. When did you first heair it mentioned? A. When it was 
 pnblished iln the paper — only what EioWiienh^usler told me; it 
 was his statement. 
 
 Q. You neven mentioned Raines' name to Quigg in any way? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. It was noit in any statemlent you irlead outside of Eothen- 
 hausler^ sitatement? A. RothenWausler made a separate state- 
 ment; he can say. 
 
 Q. Did yon hear Senaton OdggeshaH's name mentioned with 
 this matter down to the time yoni saw it in the newspaper? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Yon didn't indicate anything toJd of him to Qniiigg? A. 
 Only what Robertson told me. 
 
 Q. Did youi reduce to writing yourself the statement yon made 
 to Qnigg? A. Yea, sir. 
 
 Q. Robertson did the same with' his staitemlenit? A. Yesi, air. 
 
 Q. Only persons? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When* was it yon made the written statement to Quigg? 
 A, I believe about tiie 9th' of March. 
 
53 
 
 Q. After that did you indicate anything to Quigg about the 
 matter? A. We' met Mr. Quigg oHi the Sunday previous to the 
 Pavey bill being reported from the Senate committee faTorably,. 
 
 Q. On that Sunday what occurred between you and Quigg? 
 A. We came to Quigg and we gave him all the evidence we had. 
 
 Q. This statement you have made here? A. Yes; and the 
 statements of the other firemen. 
 
 Q. TliiOse were reduced to writing and delivered to Quigg? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Give us the names of all who made statements in writing? 
 A. EothenJiausleT, Mr. Kyan and myself, and there were several 
 who did not make written statements. 
 
 Q. They reported verbally? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you knofw anything except what you have stated here? 
 A. I do not; other members do. 
 
 Q. Were you present when they made this' statement? A. 
 Yes, sir. ^ 
 
 Q. What did they say? A. One fireman named Armitage said 
 he received some information from officers of the department as 
 regards getting together to pass their bill ; I don't remember the 
 exact woirds correctly; I remember Quigg taMng notes of all he 
 saild at th^e time; there was Fireman Hauch who also made a 
 statement about certain firemen in companies being approached 
 by their commanding officers, who were to influence them to get 
 together and raisie a fund' of this kind; these; gentlemen wene 
 Foreman Thompson, of Engine Company, No. 52, and Foreman 
 Zom, of Engxnie 52; I believe that was about all; several other 
 statements were presented by firemen, whose names I do not 
 know, but I believe Mr. Quigg has got tlieir names'. 
 
 Q. These statements were in regard to raising some money? 
 A. Yes, sir. , 
 
 Q. In th.e officers' association? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At any time did you have any talk with these people about 
 the old figlit between the exjempt and active firemen with regard 
 to the passage of the 2 per cent tax bill? A. As soon as our bill 
 became a law I became interested in that. ^ 
 
 Q. I'revious to that time did you have any talk with reference 
 to th.at act? A. Not this year; we did last year. 
 
 Q. Did you talk with members of the officers' association? A. 
 Perhaps we did last year; mot this year. 
 
 Q. Did you have any talk witihL Bums this year about it? A. 
 No, sir 
 
 Q. At any time this winter? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any money being raised at any time in con- 
 nection with that act? A. No, sir. 
 
54' 
 
 Q. You dom't know of any uiomey being raised in oonneotion 
 with; anything, of yoiur own knowledge? A, No, sir. 
 
 Q. You luave any. talk with; any person whtf stated; he ha4 
 paid any money? A* No, sir. x 
 
 Q. Did you have any talk with any person whio said he received 
 any money? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Wliat yoiii have got is what yoiu- have, stated? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When did you see Mr. Quigg again with regard to this 
 subject, after that Sunday, and before tlie reporting by th^ 
 Senate committee of this; Pavey bill? A. I saw h.im off and on 
 immediately afterward. 
 
 Q. Talk with him about this matter? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. "Wlen? A. At different periods. . 
 
 Q. Any additional infbirmation to wliat you havp now stated 
 given him? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. At any time from that time on? A. Noi, sir; I oould give 
 him no more information. 
 
 Q. Did you give him i any further details in regardl to thie 
 Albany end of the matter, as to conversations with Senatorsi? 
 A. We gave him some information as regards some men finding 
 a book of items of amounts paid. 
 
 Q. Who found it? A. I didn't find iti; a mam by the name of 
 Campbell of Engine Company, 25; I do not know his name. 
 
 Q. Did you see the book? A- No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know whlat Campbell did with the book? A. The 
 owner of the book took the book from Campbell, an assistant 
 foreman. 
 
 Q. Wiio is that aisisibtant foreman? A. I do not know his 
 name; he is in the same oompany. 
 
 Q. Whom did you get any statement of of what was in the 
 book? A. The chairman of the legislative coonimlttee, Eeagan; 
 he is present 
 
 Q. Did you have any talk with Mr. Quigg previous m the pub- 
 lication in the newspapers on the su:bject of publication in the 
 newspapers after this Sumd'ay yoiu have spoken of? A. The 
 only conversation I recollect was that Quigg said he was going 
 to publish the facts in this caise. 
 
 Q. When did you have that oouiviersatibn? A. About the time 
 the bill was in a precarious condition. 
 
 Q. Before it was neported froml the Senate committee? A. 
 Before or after. 
 
 By Senator O'Ctonnoir: 
 
 Q, You stateid about the bill beihig iin a precarious ^condition; 
 as a matter of fact it was never in a precarious condition; you 
 mean this was your opiiniom? A. Soi far as I know. 
 
55 
 
 By Mr. Eiajnes: 
 
 Q. How sioon aifiteir or 'before tlie report of it by tihie Senate 
 committee was it that you haid a talk with. Mr. Quigg about this 
 matter? A. I oam't say; I saw Qiingg and he told me he intended 
 to publish, this affair. 
 
 Q. Hofw did- you come to cairry these written] reports to Mr. 
 Quigg? A. In the interest of our own measure; we thought it 
 would lielp to get Itoe amiemdjoient out of the way. 
 
 Q. You didn't taike them to amy one else? A. No, siir. 
 
 Q. You took them to Quigg on your own motion? A. Yes; on 
 our own motion. 
 
 By Senator O'Oannor: 
 
 Q. Did you ever indioate these facts to Slieffleld? A. Ko, sir. 
 Q. Had he been appointed fire commissdjoner at this time? A. 
 Yea, sir. 
 
 Framk J. Bothenhausler, beding duly sworn as a witness and 
 examined by Mr. Eoot, testified as follows: 
 
 Q. Yofa are a member of th,e fire department? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In th.e uniformed force? A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You are an offlcer of the association? A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long hiave you been^ on the force? A Five years the 
 10th of January. 
 
 Q. What company? A Thirty -ninth Emgitne Company. 
 
 Q. Do you i.old any office in the benevolent associlation ? A. 
 Yes; I ami financial secretary. 
 
 Q. Do you belong to the legdislatiTe oomanittee? A. Not di- 
 rectly; I am siupposed to be there every time the legislative com- 
 mittee meets. 
 
 Q. Did you take an interest in the passage of tlie bill to in- 
 crease the pay of the uniformed force? A. Yes, sii'. 
 
 Q. Do you know James Smith, of Hook amd Ladder, No. 2? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That at Fiftietli street and Le:migtom avenue? A. Yes, sdlr. 
 
 Q. You know Mm? A. I was in tbe company with him. 
 
 Q. Do you kniow him well? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you know him before he was promoted to be an officer? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you, at any time early in Malrcli, have a conversation 
 with James Smith on the subject of legpislation relating to the 
 department? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. WhiefPe did you have that conversatilan? A. In the quarters 
 of Hook.and Laidden 2. , 
 
36 
 
 Q. Witth wh.om. did you go to that place? A. With the presi- 
 dent of mm organiziatioin; he waited for me on the comer. 
 
 Q. Is that the gentlemaii who has just beem on the witnieas 
 stand? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What was James Smith's official positiom ttfeine at the tBlme 
 you held the conversation? A. Assistant foreman- 
 
 Q. Was he an officer of thle officers' aisisiociiiajtion? A. He was 
 one of the members of the legislative committtlee, I wais miade 
 to believe. 
 
 Q. When was the conversation, as nearly as you can give it? 
 A. On the 9th of March, between half-past 5 and 6 o'clock. 
 
 Q. Tell what the ooinversation was? A. Between 5.30 and 6 
 o'clock I went to the quarters of Hook and Ladder 2 and asked 
 for Smitib, but he was not in and I waited for him; when he 
 came in I asked himn if he could give me any imfloirmation in 
 neference to what kept oiur salary bill in the cities committee 
 of the Senate, and he told me to try to get our president tio meet 
 their president oif the officers' association, John' J. Burns, and 
 he would tell him what arrangemiemt oould be made; thlat it 
 could not be maide without mjoney, and he would tell hiim the 
 amount it would cost; and he says yoour bill won't be reported 
 out by the lasiii day of this session; we have been told soi by 
 friends who have taken up our amendment; hie .said that thtei 
 friends were Payn, Biobertsion, Eiaines and Oogigeshall; he siaSId 
 Piatt told us to send! otor bill along with the others and bioith 
 would become a law; I ajsked him the question' whether it was 
 with or without money, and he said I ought not to ask it; he 
 said such men as Piatt would send it along, and then the way 
 ils to see a " go between ; '' he said, " The men are not up there 
 far their health;" he said, "If yon people are wise you will 
 oome half way with us and have both bills passed at the same 
 time;" he said, "The only way that can be done is by seeing 
 the peiople wi^h the requirement" 
 
 Q. Did he say anything to inform you who the " go betweens " 
 were? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Youi mentioned, I think, Mr. Payn's name; what did he say 
 to him? A. He said he was one of the men interested! in their 
 behalf; he said Payn was up at Albany all that winter. 
 
 Q. You don't mean to be understood that anything was said — 
 you mentioned Platfs name — you don't mjean anythiing was 
 said of Mr. Piatt in connection with money? A. No-, sir. 
 
 Q. Was anything more said about Mr. Piatt than that he told 
 them to send the bill alobg and it would be passed? A. Yes'; 
 and I asked him, " With money or withoiut? " 
 
57 
 
 Q. He didn't say Piatt said anything about money? -V. No, 
 sir; Jie said I ougM to have better sense tham to ask that ques- 
 tion. 
 
 Q. Tt was then he said that if you wfantedl to get a bill out of 
 committee you would have to hare a " go between?" A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you reduce your statement to writing? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you indicate these facta you have testified to to Quigg? 
 A. Yes, )Sir; on the 10th of March. 
 
 Q. Did you indicate them to CliffoTd? A. Yes, sir; probably. 
 
 Q. Any other infoirmatlon you have on this subject? A. Xo, 
 sir. 
 
 By Mr. Eaines: , 
 
 Q. Have you any objection to our having your statement in 
 writing whichj Mr. Boot hiasi used? A. I can't have any objecr 
 tion. 
 
 Q. You are willing to hiave Mr. Boot pass it over to usi? A. 
 Yesi. I 
 
 Mr. If oot — It is part of my memoranda, and I prefer to- liWd it. 
 
 Mr. Baines. — I want it for use in. crossi-examination, as part 
 of the statement, and the witness seems to have no objection, 1o 
 my having it. 
 
 The Witness. — I didn't say, I have no objection to it. If left 
 to me now, I would not have said you could have it. 
 
 Mr. Eaines. — Has Mr. Boot that statement noiw? 
 
 The Witness.— Yes. 
 
 Qk You h,ave no objection to my Laving it and putting it in 
 the record? A. I would rather, you would aslc tbe counsel. 
 
 Mr. Bainies. — 1 ask the counsei to allow us to have that state- 
 ment for the purpiose of spreading it upon the record in con- 
 nection with the statement of the witness now made. 
 
 Mr. Boot. — You may have it as soon as I obliterate a private 
 memorandium. 
 
 By Mr. Eaines: 
 
 Q. You hiappened, incidentally, to be called upon by Clifford 
 to do this work? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And when you went and interviewed Smithi you reported at 
 once to Clifford, and he took you to Quigg? A. Yes, sin 
 
 Q. Is the statement which I have in your handwriting? (State- 
 ment shown witness.) A, Yes^ ,sir. 
 
 Q. You wrote that yourself? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Does it truly state the conversation you had with Smith'? 
 A. Very near; it may hot be every word; the words are not the 
 same words used, but it is the sense of the conversation. 
 F. 8 
 
58 
 
 Q. You Bare stated! here tuat Mr. Smith, told you that Mendis 
 of their bill were PayB, Ooggeshlall, Robertson and Raines? A, 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did lie, say anything else to you with! reference to thiese 
 Senators? A. No, sir. , i 
 
 Q. Say anything to youi about their requiring money? Ai 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did h.e say anything to yoiu about their being favorable or 
 against your bill? A. He said they were friends of his. 
 
 Q, That th!e only form in which their namesi were mentioned? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Anid that these ^people that were there in Albany were not 
 there for their health; you understood that he spoke of "gpi 
 between® ?" A. Yes. 
 
 Q. ile didln't speak of Senators being there not for their health? 
 A. No, dr. 
 
 Q. Ave you perfectly certain that the order in which you testi- 
 fle(3 to that conversation is the way in which you told it to 
 Quigg? A, Very near; I may have made a few words different 
 
 Q. And you told it to Quiigg about *he 10th of Marcih? A Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any further talk with Smith? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any further talk with Quiigg? A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When? A. I am't tell. 
 
 Q. When with reference to the publioaition of this matter? A 
 I could not teU you. 
 
 Q. Before that? A. Yes, sir. - ' 
 
 •Q. How long before? A I donjl'd noit tell you. 
 
 Q. About how long? A. I oould niat state. 
 
 Q. When with, reference to the time your bill passed the 
 Legislature? A. Before it was reported from the cO'ttmiittee. 
 
 Q. On what miaitter did you see Mr. Quigg at thalt time? A. I 
 went to see him and told him, that being Lieutenant Smith was 
 a friend of mine, that if there was any way of showing Smith 
 leniency I wanted it shown him. 
 
 Q. If he needed any leniency you wanted him to have it? • A. 
 Ye®, sir. 
 
 John J. Bums, beinig duly swoiru' as a witness, and examined 
 by Mr. Rainesi, testifleid as fbllows: 
 
 Q. What is your relation toi the department? A. 1 am foi'eman 
 of Hook and' Ladder, No. 1, New York fire department. 
 
 Q. Are you an officer in- any of their official associations? A. 
 I am president of the Asisoicaatdbn of Officers: 
 
59 
 
 Q. How lomg 'Uave you btsen in th;e department? A. Twelve 
 years. 
 
 Q. Wliere was your hiomie befone you came here? A. Ohatliam, 
 N. Y.; thiat i's Mr. Payui's homej I was boim in that town and have 
 known h i im ever solnoe I wajs a! small boy. 
 
 Q. Tihe questtau is, Mr. Bums, wag any -money collected with, 
 reference to this flremen's mandiatoi"y salary bill by, you at any 
 time on to your knowledge? A. There never has been any action 
 taken by the oifficiers' assoicalation witlh referenicie tloi the salary bill; 
 our business at Albany, on the only locoasiom we were at ^Ubany, 
 was in the intereeit of this 2 per cent tax bill; there was. a 
 regular assiessment for tike objecit of defraying expienses there; 
 the officers paid this and took care of the interests of the depart- 
 ment and no part of it wais paid except by the officers. 
 
 Q. Was there lany collection) of money with reference to this 
 salary bill? A There was no money collected and no arrange- 
 ment made at any meeting, and no agreement made for the 
 payment of any mon;ey for the pasisage of tihati bill. 
 
 Q. Has there been any collection of money for the passage' of 
 that bill? A. None whatever; I would know if there was. 
 
 Q. What do you know about th.e collection of money with 
 regard to this 2 per cent tax bUl? A. We had that fight last 
 year, and it began to look very serious, and I was requested by 
 the chief of the fire departmient to see if Payn would iissist us 
 with reference to the 2 per cent, tax bill, and 1 did so, and I 
 was also requested to ask if he would acoept hi!s expenses for 
 his efforts in our behalf last year; actual expenses when he went 
 to Albany for uis, and he told me at that time that if I ever 
 spoke to him about giving him a dollar againi he would never 
 have anything to do with, it; when I asked him about accepting 
 money for expanses he said', " If you ever speak tome again about 
 expenses for anything I do for you, I never will do' anything for 
 that bill or for you." 
 
 Q. When you coane down to this winter, the first business yon 
 had at Albany was what? A. Two per cent, tax bill. 
 
 Q, How early in the winter did the 2 per cent, tax bill matter 
 become imminent? A. At a very early stage; it was introduced 
 the first of the winter. 
 
 Q. Wliat did you do with regard to it? A. It was referred 
 to a committee and I had to appear for a hearing. 
 
 Q. How many went up with you? A. Usually three, besides 
 myself. 
 
 Q. You went up to attend hlearings on thait bill? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many times did you go on that bill? A. I think five 
 times in both houses. 
 
60 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact of wMdh. you have! been imformed thait in all 
 the fire departments of the State thlere has been a collectiom of 
 money aanong active flremien for the purpose of payiimg expenises 
 of committee in attempting to resist that 2 peir cent, tax a.ct? 
 A. 1 have heard it ruimx)ired' thtroiughout the State. 
 
 Q. Whep did you commjence to raise mjomey for the pa-ymeaat 
 of expenses of that fight? A. Immediately aften the Legislajture 
 adjonrneid last year. 
 
 Q. Tell us about it? A. The officers came together; they hlad 
 not received aaiy ■ assistance from other mjembeirs of the depart- 
 ment; they ha;d then a secret orgamization of their own and dSldl 
 not take any actionl in amythimig offiioers were conneoted, witfe; 
 so we came to the conclusioiQ that we had the whole matter of 
 this 2 per cent, tax on ouir hands and organized for that. 
 
 Q. About thkt time did the offlceirs' association' collect money 
 with reference to that fight? A. We collected some foir legiti- 
 mate expenses. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — After this thte coanttnittee will pursue the 
 course of (receiving evidence tending to support the charges and 
 go on and get tirough with that, if there is any, and then' we 
 will receive evidence in oontradilction of it 
 
 The committee adjourned to Friday, Aptil 26, 1895, at 10 
 , o'clock, Court of General Sessions, New York. 
 
 Friday, April 26, 1895. 
 The committee reoonvenied, pursuant to adjonimmient. 
 Present. — Senatoir O'Gonnioir, ch^rmaoi; Senators Parker, Mul- 
 lin. Pound, Oantoir. 
 
 John J. Burns, beilng recalled an;d examined by Mr. EaSnies, 
 further testified as followis: 
 
 Q. You stated that you had been acquainlbed with Mr. Payn? 
 A. Yes, sir.' 
 
 Q..Anid that you applied Ha him. for assistance im connection 
 with the 2 peir cent, tax act? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At whose suggpstioin? A. Chief of the Fiire Department 
 Bonner. 
 
 Q. State the conversation between yom andl Bonner? A. The 
 2 per cent, tax bill at that time was about on its final paissiage; 
 it was on third reading and it appeared that it would become a 
 law. 
 
 Q. The whole department was anxious to defeat that measure? 
 
61 
 
 Q. In cobnection with' serrices of committees at Albany, was 
 money raised by the firemen? A. Far no otlijer purpose than 
 expenses. 
 
 Q. What was the amount then contributed? A. At that time 
 the association, compoised of the New Yorlc Council of the Order 
 of American Firemen, then composed of firenien and officers 
 alike — ^ili our department the firemen belong as well as the 
 ■ officers — the amount expended at that time ail amounted! to 
 about $160, I think. 
 
 Q. State the conversation between yon and Chief Bonner? A. 
 Chief Bonner sient for me and asked if I thiought I could get 
 Payn to assM us in this matter, saying that if we lost the 2 
 per cent tax matter, it would mean that our pension fund; 
 would be bankrupted, and the loss of a million and a half of dollars 
 in 10 years. 
 
 Q. The amount that tax produced! for. New York firemen bad 
 become to be what? A, It had been increasing; it was, last 
 year, $] 22,000. 
 
 Q. The controversy is between active and exempt firemen as 
 to wlio should have that money after 1897? A. Yes, sir. • 
 
 Q. Did you go to Paiyn- at that time? A. I went to see him., 
 in company with Foreman Freel. 
 
 Q. You procured Ms assistance, and the bill was defeated ? A. 
 He promised! to do what he could, and started for Albany imme- 
 diately, or the next day. , 
 
 Q. Was there any talk between Bonner and Payn in your 
 presence? A. I think there was; I introduced the chief to Payn 
 at the Grand Union Hotel. 
 
 Q. State the conversation? A. I simply introduced Chief Bon- 
 ner to Payn ; Bonner already understood that Payn was friendly 
 to us, and wanted to meet him, and I think that that was all T, 
 waited to hear. 
 
 Q. At the time was there a conversation between yourself and 
 Payn in regard to this conversation? A, I was directed by Chief 
 Bonner to see if Payn would accept his expenses for services ren- 
 dered in Albany, legitimate expenses, and Payni said to me, and 
 afterward to Chief Bonner, that he woiuld not accept a penny 
 for anythiuig !he did for the firemen, andl if I ever spoke to him 
 about it again he would have nothing more to do with that bill 
 OP with me. 
 
 Q. Did Payn say to you, whatever he did was a matter of per- 
 sonal friendship? A. He said, "Whatever I do, I do for you." 
 
 Q. How did you get your position? A. Mr. Payn secured my 
 appointment. 
 
 Q. How many years ago? A. Twelve. 
 
62 
 
 <^. iMter this tSmie, you were promcrted? A: I was protooltefl 
 February 1, 1886. 
 
 Q. During tke last year have you had any promotioooisi? A. I 
 was promoted a little more thaoi a year ago to be foreman. 
 
 Q. After tlie Legislature adjourned, wliat occurred ais to the 
 condition of that 2 per cent, fight? A. At about that time it 
 was discovered that there was .som^^e sort of a secret organization 
 being formed with, the firemen, of which th;e officers were not 
 allowed to be members, and tbey kept dwindling out of the New 
 York Council until it was almost broken up, and it was then, 
 perhaps, that the officers organized for the purpose of fighting 
 the 2 per cent, tax measure; that wais about 11 months ago, ^ 
 think. 
 
 (Mr. Eaines offered in evidence ar+icle 2 of the constitution) 
 and by-laws of the Association of Officers of the Fire Department 
 of the City of New York, which was received and) marked 
 "Exhibit A, of April 26, L. A. W. S.") 
 
 "AUTIOLE II. 
 
 Objects. — -The objects of this association! shall be organ- 
 ization for the general good of its members, fraternally, 
 sicoally and beneficially, the consolidating for mutual interests, 
 the securing of proper recognition for its members, the procuring 
 of the passage of proper laws and their enforcement, for the 
 protection of the members of the fire department of the city of 
 Ne(w York, for the protection of the pension fund of the firte 
 department of the city of New York, and the protection of all 
 persons, members, widows and orphans, who are legitimately 
 entitled to benefits from this fund, and to urge and induce the 
 full collection of all fundis iset apart' for the relief of members, 
 their widows and orphans, and render such other aid as may be 
 necessary." 
 
 Q. "What other action did you tiibe foir preparing for the 
 winter's campaign on the 2 per cent, tax matter? A. AccoiPdtng to 
 the eonstitutiion and by-laws and the rules and regulations 
 aidopted- at a meeting, it was arranged that the cbnitribuitaon of 
 |1 a month be assessed on each officer in the departmient for the 
 purpose of defraying legitimate expenses of committees to Al- 
 bany or elsewhere, where is was thought the commiirtee couldl 
 do any good. 
 
 Q. Who were the oiollectors of that fuud? A. There aire 13 
 directors of the officers' aissiocialrion and they act as coMectorSt 
 
 Q. The fumd was placed in whose hands? A. It is turned over 
 to the secretairy audi he, in lium, turns it over to the treasurer. 
 
63 
 
 Q. When wias tihat collection oommenced? A. I think thie 1st 
 of Jume; I am not positive about th^e diate, but I think it was 
 the 1st of June. 
 
 Q. Has thiat assessment bteeu genierally coltected since? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And placed in the' hands of Treasurer Oolby? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How are moneys drawn? A. According toi the aonstltiution 
 and by-laws the president of the associartiou has power to draw 
 money for 1his purpose at any time and forward a Toucher to 
 the treasurer; tlie president has full power to act ill this matter 
 because of occasions arisinj^ where there would be no time to 
 go through loirTnialities. 
 
 Q. Did you at any time draw any money? A. In 1894 I drew 
 |500 to be set aside as a contingent fund and used on emergencies 
 amd short notice, when necessary by me, or anybody whom I 
 directed to act. 
 
 Q. Have you, persomajly, as president, diraiwn' amy moneys in 
 that fund? A. Not except for legitimlate expenses, ais other 
 members have done, for trips to Albaiiy or elsewhere. 
 
 Q. To what extent has that $500 been expended? A. It has 
 been expended to this extent ; T have usied the money, oir portions 
 of it, for expenses, and afterward received a vomcher and kept 
 the fund intact; the fund now stands |134: expended, which I 
 have forwarded a voucher for, the remiaaning sum I have im my 
 possession, and the fund will be intact when I receive .flS^i. 
 
 Q. Does this rej'resent the extent of your personal drawings? 
 A. Yes, sir; I signed the vouchers. 
 
 Q. Other members of the legislative committee have drawn 
 eKpenses from the treasurer? A. Yes, sir, 
 
 Q. How did those expenses accrue? A. That would go for 
 expenses when the occasion would present itself that it would 
 be necessary to go to Albany in' the interest of thiis 2 per cent. 
 tax bill; part of the expenses would be in this way: whatever 
 period of time was necessary for us to be absent, we wonld 
 secure special leave for, and thiat would be without pay ; and we 
 would get our salary loist on accoiunt of the leave and the neces- 
 sary expenses paid back, together wifthi car faire and hotel bill. 
 
 Q. That is, the salary lost by the committee on trips to Albany 
 and expenses were refunded from this fund on vouchers fm"- 
 nished to the treaisurer? A. Yes^-sir. 
 
 Q. You were on what was called special leave? A. Yes, siP. 
 
 Q. Expenses would be how much on a ti'ip? A. That would 
 depend upon how much fund Ave had in Albany. 
 
 Q. About what were the' oxpensesi of the committee on one 
 trip? -A. They would average from $85 to $140. 
 
64 
 
 Q. rfow many of you went? A. I'our. 
 
 Q. That included the expenses of the four? A'. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You staid there various lengths of time? A. Yes; from 
 one to three days. , 
 
 Q. How many times did you go to Albany yourself this last 
 winter? A. I thilnk I have been there five or six times. 
 
 Q. The committee went how many? A. As mapy times as I did. 
 
 Q. Has any other mioney been levied or collected for any pur- 
 pose or expended for any pui-pose than you have mow stated? 
 A. None whatever. 
 
 Q. Has no ftund been raised outside «f this expense fumd? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Has amy of thie money been expended outside of the neces- 
 sary expemsles of your committee? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you tell about hiow much the lalssessmeuts have amounted 
 to? A. About $2,000. 
 
 Q. And aisldie from what you have stated, the balance of the 
 money is in whose hiands? A. In the hands oi the treasurer; the 
 remainder over the |500 in my possession. 
 
 Q. Have you any tonowladge or information of the raaising in 
 the officers' association, undeir the articles of assooiatLon^ of a 
 dollar for any purpose in oonneiotiioni with legislation other thtm, 
 you have stated? A. None whatiever. 
 
 Q. Have you had any talk with any" person whomlsoever on the 
 subject of expending any of this money outisiidie of the neces- 
 sary expenses of the oomimittee? A. No, siir. 
 
 Q. Have you talked of it wiith: anybody? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. Or demanded a dollar of anybody? A. No', sir. 
 
 Q. Have you had any negotilatioms with Piayn or anybody under, 
 the Sim as to the paymient of the nnoney abiout the firemen's bill? 
 i*^ No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or about the 2 per cent, bill? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or any firemen's bill ? A. No^ sir. 
 
 Q. You did have some talk with Pa,yni in, connection with this 
 firemen's/ bill? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 (3. During the year 1894, was thiere talk among the oflicers 
 individually, withj reference to having the salaries fixed or 
 changed? A. There was talk in a general way about the time or 
 right after electSon; the officers met, from' time to time, and 
 would saiy in' all probabilities .thiey would now be able to get 
 their salaries iniconeaised. 
 
 Q. Was that among the oifflciersi alone? A. We understoiod the 
 firemien expected to get theirs raised. 
 
 Q. Was there emj mieetirog of the aomtoittee for that purpose? 
 A. Not i)n our asisociationi. 
 
65 . 
 
 Q. Was tdiere a time whien tMs talik took sortie form at Albany 
 in rfegardi to a provision' in tke saiary bill? A. In the talk I liad 
 Avitli Mr. I'ayn, while speaking with him in relation to the 2 
 per cent, tax meaisure, lue said, " The fl-remien will get their 
 sala'ries increased," and I said, "That is f^ood," and he said, 
 " Ytoiu onght to be glad of that," and I said it did not do rue Miiy 
 good, and he says, "Are yon not iin that? " And 1 says, '• No, sii'; '' 
 and he says we ought toi get onr pay increased, and he says, " I 
 win have to loiok into it, John; " that was all thri talk I had in 
 oonnectioin with that measure with Mr. Payn. 
 
 Q. Was that siubsequent to the moiYement Rt;n-li.d to amend the 
 bill for the oiScers? A. It appeared in the papersi after that, iind 
 then afterward I met some officers and they asked me 
 if I knew about it, and I told them I did not for I had no delmite 
 knowledge of the bill. 
 
 Q. Whiatt oonversaWom dild yoni hiai\'e with Pa,\'n, if any, with 
 referenciel to the matter furthei-? A. I didln't have niiy conversa- 
 tion wifbh him. at tliat time with neferenoe to the matter. 
 
 Q. Payn volunteerpd to get your pay raised the same as 
 firemen ? A. It was his suggestion. 
 
 Q. While that was occurring, did you have ai talk with Payn 
 with reference to any expenses or contTibutions or compensation, 
 or the eollec'tion of money? A. I never got a dollar. of Payn, 
 nor h(; of me. 
 
 Q. There was no tallc about raising money? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Collectittg any? A. Nothing of the kind ever talked t^r 
 thought about iSO far as I know of. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have a talk with. Smith, of your association, in 
 regard to money matters? A, None at all. 
 
 Q. With Mr. Quinn? A. No, sir; Mr. Quinm has not been an 
 officer for but a very short time. 
 
 Q. Or with any one you have mentioned in this piroceeding? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you at any time been approached by any person tit 
 Albany for having to do with legislation, directly or indirectly. 
 an;d solicited to raise a fund outside of thisi |1 a month? A. I 
 have never been approached or had any conversation with refer- 
 ence to raising money for any other purpose than that I have 
 stated with referte-nce to the 2 per cent tax matter; that is all I 
 went to Albany for. 
 
 Q. You are the president of the association? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Had you, previous to the statement of Clifford on the wit- 
 naes stand, heard of the dinner at which Senator Eobertson and 
 Parr were present, given by the officers' association at the Mor- 
 ton House? A. That is the first I biaTe ever heard of it, aatf so 
 F. 9 
 
far m the officers' assoieiaition is concerned, if the dinner had 
 been given by the officers, 1 would have been there, and I have 
 not been in the Moirton House in three years: 
 
 Q. Had you ever heard of such a dinner? A. I had not. 
 
 Q. Have you made some inquiries about it? A. I have, but 
 hare lieard of nobody being there; I know nothing of it, and 
 litaow tof nol officers who have any knowledge of it; I have no 
 knowledge of any dinner given by the officers' association at the 
 Morton Hoiuse or any other htouse. 
 
 Q. There has something been said with regard to a book which 
 was lost by the secretary, of the officers' association? A. The 
 book ^as no* lost by the secretary; it was lost by Assiistaut 
 Fotrieman Horan, of Engine 25, andl the fireman who found it, 
 Campbell, has stated so; Horan here informsi us that the wit- 
 ness here had misrepresented things. 
 
 Q. Have you knowledge of what that book is? A, I have seen 
 the book. 
 
 Q. Whio has possession of that book? A. Assistant Foremiiii 
 Horan. 
 
 Q. You have seen the book? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation with Campbell with refer- 
 ence to it? A. I did not. 
 
 By Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. I undeistoiod yon to say you came from Chatham? A. Vps; 
 a good many years ago. 
 
 <^ How many yeairs ago? A. A short time before I came im 
 the fire department. 
 
 Q. Wben was that? A. Eighteen hundred and eighty-tihrei-. 
 
 Q. How did you get appointed on the fire department? A. I 
 was appointed by Commissioner Vani Cott, for Mr. Payn. 
 
 Q. You knew Mr. Payn very well in Coluimbia county? A. 1 
 have kr.iO'Wn Mm all my lifetime. 
 
 Q. How long had your life been prior to being appointed on 
 the fire department? A. Just 21 years. 
 
 Q. Mr. Payn was a resident of Chatham? A. He was. 
 
 Q. And h'ad been so long as you could remember? A; Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You are 33 years oM now? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have yon known Mm intimately since 1883? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You were appointed as a fireman? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long did yon cotntmue as a fireman before being pro- 
 moted? A. Until February 1, 1886. 
 
 Q. And who procured your promotion? A. T should think 
 that it was Senator Gilbert ][>e4i'n. 
 
* 67 
 
 Q. Pa.vn hlad nnthiug to do with that? A. He wais very friendly 
 amd i>er]iaps Dean was much more artive on account of I'ayn's 
 friendship; 1 do not know but Payn had more to dio with it 
 than Dean. 
 
 Q. In 1886 you were promoted to be assistamt foreman? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Hoiw long did you remain assdstant foreman? A. Until 
 April 20, 1894. 
 
 Q. Then yooi were promoted to be foreman? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That posiition you now hold? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Of what company? A. Hook and Laidder, No. 1. 
 
 Q. In what bartttalion is No. 1? A. The second. 
 
 Q. ^^^o procured 'your promotion in* 1894 to be foreman? A. 
 I was sent for to be examined, pasised the examiination and was 
 promoted; I presume several friends of mine SnteiPoeded. 
 
 Q. Who weire they? A. I am not in possession of the facts 
 myself; I was suirpirised when notified. 
 
 Q. Did Payn have anything to do with it? A. I presume h(^ 
 did if he could. , 
 
 Q. .Are promotions made on accoiunt of merit? A. I presume 
 so: I presrame merit had sioimething tO' do' with it. 
 
 Q. You mean promotions are not mlade on merit? A. I would 
 not say that. 
 
 Q. What good do Mends do if thtey are made on mei-iit? A. 
 I do not know; I, perhaps, was promoted on my record, so far 
 as I know. 
 
 Q You had to pass am examination for promotion? A. Yes; 
 T did. 
 
 Q. What other friends interested themselves m youo- behalf? 
 A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. Whom' did you ask? A. I never asked 'anybody. 
 
 Q. Who were the commissilooners when you were promoted to 
 "be foreman? A. The president of the board was John J. Scan- 
 Ian; the othter commissioners were S. Howland Bobbins and 
 Anthony EicKhJoff. 
 
 Q. Tou have been in the habit of meeting Payn frequently 
 during the 12 years you have been in the fire diepartment? A. 
 I have ajlways been very friendly to Mr. Payn and he has called 
 to see me on several occasions; he has made friendly \'isit« foi- 
 years. 
 
 Q. Has he resSlded in Chatham dtiring that time? A. I can't 
 say; I see him in New York. 
 
 Q. Do you know his business diiring that time? A-. His busi- 
 ness during the Hrae I refler to was tiini mining business. 
 
 Q. T^Tien was that? A. I don't know about that, and I don't 
 know whfe*her he has stopped or not, 
 
68 
 
 Q. "^"oTi do not know but he is minting tin now? A. Noi 
 
 Q. You use the word tim in a. technical sense? A. I mean 
 the California; Mining Company. 
 
 Q. Do yoiu understand it is a .mining ciompiany in Califoimia? 
 A. I don't Icnow anythilng aibout it. 
 
 Q. You usled liie term Calif oraia TSn Mining Oompamy; what 
 do you mean by that? A. That is whiat I undemtood the name 
 of the concern was. 
 
 Q. A\'h.'at concern? A. That he wa.s engaged with. 
 
 Q. Wiien did you understand he was engaged with thiat? A. 
 I do not know. 
 
 Q. Do yon know what Mr. Tayn's business is now? A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether he has any buSilnesis o'r not? A. I 
 do not know whether he has business. > 
 
 Q. Have yoni eve* Icnotwin of h& hlaivikig any business other than 
 Oaldfornia Tin Mining Company? A. He has been in the paper 
 mills to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Whiere aire these pa.]>er mills? A. In Chaltham, N. Y. 
 
 Q. And they mamjufactiiire paper? A. Yes; straw paper. 
 
 Q. Does he do businessi in Albany? A. I don'l know anything 
 about it. 
 
 Q. You never heard of his being engaged in any business at 
 Albany? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yoiu ever hear of his being engaged in any busin<^ss in 
 X( w York? A. Xo, sir; only what I told you. 
 
 Q. You have not told me of any business in Xew York? A. 
 1 do mot know of any busines.s. 
 
 Q. Do yiou know when this paper mill business started at 
 Chatham? A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. How many times did you gol to Albany in connection with, 
 th:e 2 per cent, bill during the session of 189.S or 1894? A. I 
 didn't go to Albany at all in 1893. 
 
 Q. Howl many timesi did you go during the session, of 1894? 
 A: I think we were there twice. 
 
 Q. Had yOTi seen Mr. Payn to tallc with him about the 2 per 
 cent, bill before you first went to Albany in the session of 1894? 
 A . I saw him at Chatham, N. Y. 
 
 Q. WhJen did you see him; there? A. I can't give the date. 
 
 Q. Before the 1st of January, 1894? A. No; not before the 1st 
 of January; it was later in thle year than January. 
 
 Q. During the session? A. Near the close of the session. 
 
 Q. In April or May? A. April, I guess. 
 
 Q. Just about a year ago? A. Just about. 
 
 Q. When you went to Albany, did yon find him there ? A . Yes ; 
 I saw Ji5m in Albany. 
 
69 
 
 Q. Where did yoii see him? A. I was just trying to recollect; 
 I am. not positive where we did see him. 
 
 Q. Where did you see him the second time you went to Albany? 
 A. I am not so sure I did see him; there was very little tliat was 
 required to be done by us. 
 
 Q. What did you ga to Albany for? A. For a hearing; we 
 were notiflied to appear before a committee. 
 
 Q. Did yO'u address the committee^ A. One of the commit- 
 tee did. 
 
 Q. You L-an't remember whether you saw him at all? A. 1 
 aim satisfied I saiW him; I think I saw himi some place in the 
 Capitol. 
 
 Q. Did you see him both times you were there? A. I piesume 
 that I did; I don't recollect. 
 
 Q. How miany times have you been to Albany during the pres- 
 ent session of the Legislature? A. Five or six times, I should 
 judge. 
 
 Q. Alone, or with the committee? A. With the committ?e. 
 
 Q. Always? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. Is (here a special committee upon the 2 per cent, bill? A. 
 Legislative committee. 
 
 Q., Who is chairman of that committee? A. In reality there 
 is ao chairman; there are three members of the committee, and 
 by virtue of my position I am also a member. 
 
 Q. Is the committee without any chairman? A. I might syy 
 Foreman Freel is chairman. 
 
 Q. He is chairman, is he? A. Yes, isir. 
 
 Q. Tliat committee has charge of the 2 per cent, tax matter, 
 has ii"? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did Foremani Freel go to Albany with you these live or 
 six times? A. He either went or was there; he may not have 
 gone on the same train. 
 
 Q. He was with you every time? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yoiu see Payn when you were in Albany the Ave or six 
 times? A. I didn't go to see him. 
 
 Q. Did yon see him? A. Not always. 
 
 Q. How many times did you see him? A. Two or three times, 
 j-erhaps; because I wished to speak with him. in, relation to the 
 2. per cent, tax bill, and that was all. 
 
 Q. You saw him' two or three times? A. Perfhaps so. 
 
 Q. Did you? A. Yes; I did; I saw him two or three times. 
 
 Q. Out of the five or six? A. Yes-, sir. 
 
 Q. And the other three or four times you didn't see him at all? 
 A I know I did not. 
 
70 
 
 Q. Did amy oitiieriniember of your crammititee see liini to your 
 knowledige on titiese oeoasioins? A. Noit oifficially; I introduced 
 the members of the committ^ wlioi did not know liim, to Mr. 
 Paym on onie oocaiSiom only. 
 
 Q. Wliea did you first go tla Albany) during the presejit ses- 
 sion? A. I tiiiiak the laitter pairt of Februairy or tjhe Is* of 
 Match. 
 
 Q. Thiat was your flrsit, visit to Albany? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. Had you done anj'thing about the 2 per cent, tax bill 
 during the year 1895, before tlhiait first visit to Albaaiy in the 
 latjter part of February or the 1st of Marcib? A. We didi what 
 we could. 
 
 Q. What did you do? A. We nortified the different fire depart- 
 ments by a circular and such like work. 
 
 Q. Fire departtaents of oither cities? A. Yes; to intercede 
 witOi miembers of the Legislature in our behalf. 
 
 Q. Oaaoi you fix amy more definitely your first visit to Albany 
 than by saying it was the latter part of February or the 1st of 
 March? A. I thinik I could say it wais the 1st or 2d of March; I 
 have not the datesi 
 
 Q. Perhaps I cam refresh your recoilectiom firom the record of 
 absences; there i^s a record of leiave kiept in the headquiarlleirS of 
 the fire departmentt? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It appears by that record that you were absent, — you had 
 your regular absence on Saturday, the 23d of Feibruary, amid were 
 not absemit again umitil Saturday, the 2d of March, and then you 
 were labsemt both the 2d' and 3d of March; is tha* of any heljt 
 to you? A. Saturday and Sunday ar'e not full days; I guess you 
 saw part of a day. 
 
 Q. Saturday, March the 24:th, there is noted a regular leave; 
 was the 24th a speoiail leave? A. If such waa the casie it was a 
 persomal affair. 
 
 Q. You have in the fire department one day of regular leave 
 in each week? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So you have si'x da,ys of duty and one day off? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Does that apply to officers and men? A. To odBcers omly. 
 
 Q. Do you select the regular day for absence? A. 'No; sir; it is 
 aseigned to us. 
 
 Q. The regular dlay asHiignied so that one officer will have 
 Mondays off, amd another Tuesdays off? A. Usually that is so; 
 but it is siTibject to change by chiefs of battalioms or by request 
 by officers to the chief of the batfealibni tioi chiamge ihe day. 
 
 Q. You were absent on special leaive om^ the 6th and 7th of 
 March, 48 hours; two full days; doesi that ihlelp you in telling 
 when you went to Alblamy? A. It doesi not, for thie reason thati I 
 
71 
 
 bave hiad special leavesi to go to Albany, and I iiave toadi a cMld 
 very sick, and imve haxi to taJje sjpiecial leavea for IndefinitLve 
 peiiods, and I cami no* remlember the daltes* 
 
 Q. Yiou didn't go tx) Alblamy at aaiy time wlhieni you dSldn't ihlajve 
 lea've? A. I did not; all those leaves of aibSienice are speoial and 
 tlie time is lost by the men. 
 
 Q. Do you rem;emlber wbat day of the week! it was) yom first 
 went to Albany atoont this buisineeis? A Wie usnally went up 
 on Moudaiy nigM, but we had no way of determining; wben any 
 occasion' presented itself or our presencie wasi required we started 
 for Albany after procuring leave of absemcie. 
 
 Q. "What indicated to you it was tiime to go to Albany on the 
 first occasion when you went? A I believed' Foreman Free! 
 obtained Icnowledge from some source there wouldl be a .hearimig 
 on the 2 per cient. tax bill; he liasi, perhaps, the dates. 
 
 Q. It appears from yoiur record tbat your regular leaves dur- 
 ing January and Febrmury were all on Saturdays and Sundays; 
 you didn't go to Albany on any of tlioiae days? A. Noi, sir. , 
 
 Q. It appears you had speciaili leave of 12 tours on the 2f2d! of 
 February; did you go to Albany then? A. ^No, siir. 
 
 Q. And a you had any oiiher leave duiring January and Feb- 
 ruary it would follow thait you did not go to Albany duiring 
 January and Februariy? A. I didn't goi to Albany then surely 
 on any matter pertaining to the fire diepartmient. 
 
 Q. In March you had regular leave on SatuiMllaiy, ithe 2d, aind 
 special leave on Sunday, tlhie 3d? A. I don't know; I don't re- 
 member the date. 
 
 Q. You would not go to Albany to attend ai hearing on Satur- 
 day or Sundlay, or to attend a legislative dommittee? A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Yofuir next leave wias the 6th or 7th of March? A. I was 
 in Albany then. 
 
 Q. That was the first time yon wenit toi Albany during the 
 session of 1895 ? A. I don't say thkt wais the first, but I remem- 
 ber those datesL 
 
 Q. Well, it was thei first if yon had nioi other leave than those 
 I have stated? A. I didn't go to Albany wilthout leave. 
 
 Q. If you had noi other leave then^ than those I have read from 
 this tramsoritpt prior to the 6th of March, yon didn't go to Albany 
 before that time in 1895? A. I didn't go to Albany only with 
 the committee in relation to fire department mat+ers. 
 
 Q. Did you get any cottnmunication fronii Freel or notice i!n 
 regard to the 2 per cent tax bill? A. I wentt on the 2 per 
 cent, tax bill. 
 
 Q. Did you ever inquilre what notice he received om (that sub- 
 ject? A. I do not think I did. 
 
Q. IMd you ever see a telegram or any message that he re 
 ceiled? A. He could answer that l;)etter. 
 
 Q. I asked if you had ever seen it? A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Who went witih you on that first oiccaisdloini? A. Captain 
 Preel, Captain Fisher and Lieutenant Tobln. 
 
 Q. Did you go before the committee? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What committee was it? A. Judiciary committee in tlie 
 Senate, J believe, on that occasion. 
 
 Q. Did you see Payn on that occasion ? A. I think not. 
 
 Q. Did you have any communication with him on the subject 
 of the 2 per cent, tax bill then? A. T think not. 
 
 Q. Did you have any communiiJcatilon with Mm then on the 
 subject of inoreasinji; the officers' siailiariesi? A. Nio, sir. 
 
 Q. Had you, at that time, had any communication with him 
 on that subject? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. When did you next jjo to Albiany? A. T can't recollect. 
 
 CJ. How longi aiftier tlue iirsit time? A. I don't reciaJl. 
 
 Q. Have you smy idea? X. Terhaps within a week or two. 
 
 Q. 1 see that the next lea.ve yon have, other than Saturday, was 
 on Tuesday, the J')tli of March, when you had special leave for 
 24 hours; is it probable that that was the next time you went 
 to Albany? A. Not at all improbable. 
 
 Q. Who went with you then? A. The committee, Freel, Tobin 
 and Fisher; all the committee did not ico ion every occaision. 
 
 Q. You mean the legislative committee? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did you do then? A. Tf 1 remember coi-rectly there 
 was another hearing. 
 
 Q. Before what committee? A. The same committee; we went 
 bpfore that committee several times. 
 
 Q. What committee was it? A. Judiciary committee in thie 
 Senate. 
 
 Q. You went before that three times? A. I think ao. 
 
 Q. Did yon see Mr. Payn on that occasion? A. T don't recol- 
 lect; I saw him two or three times while in Albany, but I do 
 not recollect on what occasions. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect whether yom saw him on this second occa- 
 sion? A. I do not 
 
 Q. Up to that time had you had any interview with Payn dur- 
 ing the year 1895 on the subject of the 2 per cent, tax bill? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did you have this interview? A. I saw him -at his 
 home in New York. 
 
 Q. Does he have a house here; where is his hoane in New 
 York? A. Ninety -five Park avenue. 
 
7S 
 
 Q. How many timea had you seen him at his home, 95 Park 
 avenue, during the year 1895, prior to this second visit tO' A Ibany ? 
 A. I havei seen him on several occasions; on my day off I occa- 
 sionally called to see Mr. Payn. 
 
 Q. Did you make a regiular practice o( seeing him on your 
 day off? A. 1 have not made it a regular practice; I occasionally 
 went to see ham. 
 
 Q. Hoiw often? A. Perhaps once or twice a month. 
 
 Q. You don't remember whether you saw Mm at the time of 
 this second visit to Albany, on the 19th of l&arch? A. I pine- 
 sume I did, at th'at time. 
 
 Q. Up to that time had you had any conversation with Payn 
 about the increase of the officers' salary? A, Up to the flrs.t 
 time I spoke with Payn I had none whatever, because he had 
 told me om that oecaision that the firemen were likely to gel an 
 increase of pay, and said' I oughrt to be glad of thiat, aind I lold 
 him I was, but it did not benefit me personally; he says^ "Don't 
 the oifflceiB get a raise;" and"! says; "No, sir;" he said, "I will 
 have tc look into that matter." 
 
 Q. When was that? A. I cam't tell that; I can't tell the date 
 at all; that was, perhaps, a month or six weeks ago. 
 
 Q. Had you had that conversation before you first went to 
 Albany with the committee on the pr^ent tax bill? A. No. 
 
 ' }. Had you had it before yoar secoiid \isit to Albany on the 
 2 per cent tax bill? A. No; you understand, I do not know 
 whether I spoke to ham the first time I went to Albany, or lIh' 
 second. 
 
 Q. Did you have this conversation in Albany on either the 
 first or second visit? A. I did. 
 
 Q. The cofnversation you have told about is ihe co'iversation 
 you Lad at Albany with Payn, when you went there with thf 
 committee, either the first or second time? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did you say? A. I was asliing him to help us in this 
 2 pier cent., tax aiatter, and when I was about to leave he le- 
 marked thai thfe firemen were likely to get an increase of pay, 
 and he says, " You ought to be glad of that;" and I says, " I am 
 glad of that;" but I says, "It does not affect or benefit me per- 
 sonally;" he says, "How is that; are the officers not in that bill;" 
 I told Mm they were not; he says, " I will have to look into that 
 and see what can be done in the matter." 
 
 Q. What else? A. Nothing; I took a walk. 
 
 Q What else was said? A. NotMng. 
 
 Q. That the whole conversation? A. I had been speaking +o 
 him for some time in general conversation about this 2 per cent, 
 tax matter, which was to us imjfortant. 
 F. 10 
 
74 
 
 Q. Have you given the whole convensatiooa about the increase 
 of sialaries? A. I have. 
 
 Q. You said nothing more to him than you have told us here? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q, That was on the second occasion of the committee's visit 
 to Albany in the session of 1895? A. I am quite positive it was. 
 
 Q. Thajt was in the city of Albany? A. It was. 
 
 Q. Prior to that time had you ever exchanged a word with 
 Payn on the subject of the increase of officers' salaries? A, I 
 had not. 
 
 Q. Prior to that time had you ever talked with the officers in 
 the fire depiartment on the subject of the increase of the officers' 
 salaries? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. With whom? A. It was spokeo; of by all the offiicers ever 
 since 'election, but no acition was taifceia tlhat I know of oitiher than 
 geneTial conversationi of the people interested in thMI matter. 
 
 Q. Prior to tbe conversation with Payn. had there been any 
 arramgement or proposiMon aanong the officers of the department 
 to attempt to get an inicneasei of salairiesi? A. No, siir. \ 
 
 Q. Prior to that tiimie had any effort bieen miade or any arrange- 
 ment talked abont to secure am increase of ^liairy? A. There 
 might have bieen> talked, but not to my linawledjge. ' 
 
 Q. You never had any talk with any officier aibonit taMng any 
 steps to seoure sucihj an increase? A. I don't recollect tliat I 
 had. 
 
 Q. Do yon rememiber whether yon had or no*? A. I might 
 have sanctioned the remarks of others, saying they would like to 
 see our salaries increased. 
 
 Q. Did yon sanction the wishes of others?, A. I know I 
 sanctSomed my own desire and wish. 
 
 Q. What do yoo miean by satnictioninig the wishes of otihera? A. 
 I mean by oocajsionally meetting officers since electiion and their 
 stating that i'n aill probability this Legislature will raise our 
 salaries. » 
 
 Q. Prior to that conversation) had there been any talk art all 
 between yon and any other officer as to the introduction of any 
 bill to secnre an increase of the officers' salaries? A. None 
 whatever. 
 
 Q. I>id y<m ever hear of any proposal to introduce a bill prior to 
 that? A. There was no ocoasiion; prior to that time; people hlaid 
 spoken of it. i i 
 
 Q. How do you Imow they had spoiken of it? A. I heard the 
 officers say that it was la good thing to get a bill nip there. 
 
 Q. Where did youi hear that? A. I would occasionally meet am 
 officer here and there, and he 'would ask mie if I ktnew ain|y- 
 
' . - 76 
 
 tliiiig aboiut aa attempt toi get an inicrease, and I said I knew 
 motliiixg about it; there was no oiocasion a,bofut it; it was talked 
 amomg tlie officera. 
 
 Q. How many times prioir to that conversajtion. with Pa,yn did 
 you meet officers who addressed you in Hiat way? A. I should 
 say once. 
 
 Q. Would it be true if yom said -oncie? A. I can only recollect 
 once. 
 
 Q. When wias that? A. I do- not know. 
 
 Q. Where was that? A. In my firehouse. 
 
 Q. Who were yo^u talking with ? A. Assistant Foreman Peter 
 Sloan. 
 
 Q. What did he siay? A. He asked me if I had heard thfe 
 officers were liable to get theilr-salaries increased alsoi; I told him 
 1 didn't kliow anything aboiut it. 
 
 Q. When did that conrersaition taike place? A. I think it was 
 iu March; it was about the tiiae he had seen some newspaper 
 article in regaird to it and I had not seieni it. 
 
 (J. Do yon know what newspaper it wasi? A. I tMiiik he saw an 
 antlcle — I do not know — I could not tell in whiat paiper; we 
 tool? all the papers; I could notti tell what paper it was. 
 
 Q. Was that prior to this talk withi BajynJ? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long before? A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Is that the only talk you ever had witth any offi-cer on the 
 subject? A. That is all I ican reoollect. 
 
 Q. When did you next have any couTersation or communica- 
 tion with Payn after this coiivensation you hare detailed, on the 
 subject of an increase of the ofilicers' salaries? A. I do mot know 
 the dates; 1 saw him perhaps once more in Albany. 
 
 Q. When was that? A. On tlie occasion of a later: visit 
 
 Q. Did you have any communication with Payn between the 
 time of this conversation, which you have referred to,, and the 
 third visit of the committee to Albany? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. When you went up for the third titaae didi yoro see Mr. Payn? 
 A. T didn't see him' long enough toi have any talli with him. 
 
 Q. You didn't have any talk wilth him? A. I don'ti recollect 
 that I did. ' | 
 
 Q. Did you go thei"e four times? A. I believe wa did. 
 
 Q. Did you see Payn, there? A. I saw hiim more than once, 
 because I remember spealdng to him on the 2 per cent, tax mat- 
 ter on more than one occasion. . 
 
 Q. When was youB third visit to Albany? A. I don't laiow 
 when it was. ' , r:-2?l^ 
 
 Q. I find by your record that the next leave you had after 
 Tuesday, thie 19th of March, was Tuesday, the 26th of March; 
 was it probable that was youp third visit? A. I gness likely. 
 
76 
 
 Q. Did yotu Iteep a memoramidtuim. of yoiur expense® on tihiois© 
 occasiotis? A. T didn't keep a. memorand'iim other thian I knew 
 what thie cair faffie amoiinted to, what the special leave was, and 
 what the hotel bill amotunted to, and it was all put in one bill 
 and I sigTiiedl a. voucher. 
 
 Q. Would the vo^icher' show when the expense was ineupred? 
 A. The voucher was usually sigmed by, (Dae at a meeitng, aJndi in 
 some cases it was re^d'ated and in some i< was not; wr wc^n^ uo\ 
 very particuiliui- about that; th'ere was no question as toi the 
 honesty of amy of the officers. 
 
 Q. WoMld the officers know when the expenise was inciMTed? 
 A. They penha.ps would, but perhaps some might not. 
 
 Q. If the vouchers included salary which, was lost by reason 
 of sjiecial leave of absence, would they show when the leave 
 "was? A. Yes, siir. 
 
 Q. Who keeps those vouchers? A. Our treasurer Uas the most 
 of them. 
 
 Q. Who is he? A. William J. Oolby. 
 
 Q. Will you see if you cau get thiera fnom him? A. You can 
 have them; our books are ready any time and he is here. 
 
 Q. Won't you ask him if he can furnish you any memoranda 
 by which you can fix the times 'of these visits to Albany? 
 
 Mr. Freel was present im ithe courtToonu: and furnished a m.emo- 
 rauda of visits as follows: 
 
 ilarch 5th, March 19th, March 26th; then follows April 2d, 
 April 9th, April 15th, April 16th and 23d. 
 
 By Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q, You accept that as beliing a correct sttlaitemient of the times 
 you visited Albany? A. I will accept that if Mr. Freel prepared 
 it, as he is cibairman of the committee. 
 
 By Senator Cantor: 
 Q. Did yoiu always go on tihe same visits? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Eotot: 
 
 Q. Knowing the days of your visits to Albany can you tell me 
 whetlier dlt was upon the first oH' second or third visit that you 
 had a coiuversation with. Daym about an increase of the officers' 
 salaries, which you have recounted here? A. I really could not 
 for I was not in any way intea'eated; it did mot affect niie at all; 
 it was in relation to' 2 per cent, taix matter I saw Payn. 
 
 Q. Was this but a casual conversationi in whSich. you toolv but 
 little interest? A. Thiat is it exactly. 
 
77 
 
 Q. Can you say it was the first or second interview rathter 
 than tlie third? A. I ooiuld not say. 
 
 Q. Tae besti yoiu dan do was that it was one of th'e diatlesi of 
 your visit? A. Some tame Jin Albany I spoke to Mr. Payn aboiut it. 
 
 Q. I mean tihe incireaisie of officers' sailaryi? A. I never had but 
 that one conversation, with Mr. Payn aboiut that. 
 
 Q. There oir anywhere else? A. Thait, is all I recollect of. 
 
 Q. Then if Payn exerted himself in regard to the increase of 
 oificers' salaries he did it without any request from yon? A. 
 Yes; if he^didi, it was withJont request from me. 
 
 Q. And he did it witbout request from anyone to your knowl- 
 edge? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. You never heard of anyone asking him to busy himself 
 about that matter? A. I never did. 
 
 Q. And whatever he did, he did from pure philanthropy? -V, 
 He perhaps did it to benefit me and other officers., whom ho 
 thought equally deserving. 
 
 Q. What other officers have yon in mind? A, All the officers 
 of the department. 
 
 Q. Your explanation of Mr. Payn's activity in regard to the 
 amendment pro^dding for an incireiase of officers' salariies i,s, that 
 he did it because of Ms appreciation of the high qualities of the 
 officers of the fire department? A. If he did it at all, that was 
 probably his reason. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether he did it or not? A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Do Tou know who pro'cnred the introduction! and amendrnent 
 to the firemen's salary bill, v.hich provided for an increase of the 
 officers' salary? A. I did not, and! do not now. 
 
 Q. Did yon ever hear? A. Noi sir. 
 
 Q. If anyone procured the imtroduftion of this aimeiidment it 
 was some unknown friend? A. Soime unknown person to me. 
 
 Q. Someone doing good to you by stealth? A. I didi not say 
 thlat; perhaps the persons who. did it are willing to state it; I 
 aan not in a posiltibin to knoiw thp names. 
 
 IQ. The whole subject is a subject of which you are entirellf'. 
 ignorant? A. So far as I have stated. 
 
 Q. Do you laiow of any officer in the fire department who has 
 ;any knowledge whatever of the introduction of an amendment 
 providing for ani increase of the officers' salary ? A. I do' not. 
 
 Q. You never heard of any officer of t|he department who 
 knew anything at ali about it? A. Isot tO' my recollection. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of any officer of the department who in 
 any way knew anything about it? A. T don't know of any; I 
 never did, other than I harve explained. 
 
78 
 
 Q. You dMn't take any interest in the increase of thie oiflQ'oe'rs' 
 salaries? A. The object of the association would be violated 
 by taking an interest in anything but the 2 per cent. bill. 
 
 Q. Was Chief Bonner a member of the association? A. Bfe 
 was. 
 
 Q. Down to what time w(as he a member? A- I think he sent 
 in his resignation some time in February 
 
 Q. February or March? A. I ami not positive. 
 
 Q. To whom did he send his resignation? A. To the associa 
 tion. . 
 
 Q. When was it received? A. At a meeting. 
 
 Q. At whalt meeting? A. Meeting of the officei-s' assor iaitilon ; 
 I believe it was sent to me and I presented it at the next regular 
 meeting. 
 
 Q. A letter? A. Yes; ai letter. 
 
 Q. Where is that letter? A. I presume the treasurer has that 
 in his possession. 
 
 Q. Will you asoertatn, where that letter is now? A. Thie 
 treasurer oir secretary has it; the secretary we had at that time 
 has since died, and a letter of that kind might have been put in 
 his pocket, but I presume it is here. 
 
 Q. What was the reason he gave fotr resigning from the officers' 
 association? A. The resignation will explain itself. 
 
 By Senator O'CJonnor: 
 
 !Q. iWill you produce that letter? A. I will ti-y; I presume jT 
 can get it; there is no inten,tion not to get it. 
 
 By Senator Parker: 
 
 Q. In Albany on these different trips in 1895, where did' you 
 stop; at what hotel? A. On mlany occasiouis. we wfve aibsent for 
 24 hours; we would leave here in the morning and oaiiie 
 away at nighlt, and we would eat at Keeler's place on Broadway, 
 or at some of his other restaurants; on some occasions we would 
 stop at Keeler's over night. 
 
 Q. If YOU staid anywhere it was at Keeler's? A. That was our 
 regular stopping place thlere. 
 
 Q. Wherpi dad Mr. Payn have his headquarters or hotel in 
 Albany this year? A. He had his headquarters in State street 
 opposite the Capitol ; I called upon him there and went up there 
 with his son. 
 
 Q. How often did you call upon him there? A. Once or twice. 
 
 Q. Waia anybody with you when you called? A. I w(mt up 
 one evening ailone, ami his son was with ine on another occaisinoi ; 
 I didn't have any other place to go. 
 
79 
 
 Q. Wbjat dioes Ms son do? A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. On these trips to Albany in 1895, wiitih respect to the fire- 
 men's bill, dM yon see or hiave any talk with any one of these 
 tliree Senators, Mr. Raines, Coggeshall, Mr. Elobeirtson? A. At 
 this iDTiestigfation I incidentally had occaHiion to^ speak to Senator 
 Raines; asiidie from that I never have spoken a. word, directly or 
 indirectly, with Senator Raiines, Senator Coggeshall or Senator 
 Robei'tson in my lifetime. 
 
 , Q. Until this investigation began? A. Yes, sir; I had known 
 them, when I saw them.: thalt is. all. 
 
 Q. Do yon know who had control or the mamagement of the 
 officers' amendment oifi the firemen's blUl in Albany? A. I do 
 not; 1 don't know anything about it. 
 
 Q. Have yon any informa.tion that would lead t» one Payn? 
 A. I had assumed that it wais because of Payn's interest; because 
 of his saying to' me he would look imtoi that matter. 
 
 Q. Let us turn to ISTew York — -Payn's houise is 95 Park ave- 
 nue — htolw far frolm there do you live? A. I have resii!ded 
 ivre^iously on Second avenue and Twelfth street, but now reside 
 145 East BDomstom. 
 
 Q. Did you go to Payn's house, 95 Park avenue, at any tikne 
 between the clioisie of the Legislatune laist yeair down to the 1st 
 of Februiary, 1895? A. I do not know tiat I did, but perhapsi I 
 did ; I could not tell ; I either saw himi at the Grand Union Holtel 
 or at his hlouse on several oocasionsL 
 
 Q. During thlait period? A. I db not know. 
 
 Q. Betwieen the close of the Legislature of 1894 and the 1st of 
 FebmaTy, 1895, have you seen him in New York, and on what 
 occasion.s? A. Be has droppiedi in the fire department toi see 
 me, and I have dropped intio the G-rand Union Hotel; I would 
 see him and his son occasionally on my day off; I would meet 
 them and say good evening to. them. 
 
 Q. During this same time did you have any conversation with 
 Payn in respect to raislikig the officers' salaries? A. ]^one. 
 
 Q. Never until the o.ccasions you have related in Albany in 
 1805? A. That is just what I mean to say. 
 
 By Mr. EloOt: 
 
 Q. Have yon an.v means of ascertlaining at what meeting of the 
 association yon presented the resignation of Chief Bonner? A. 
 I think I can find out; I think it was about the 3d or 4th' of 
 March; it wais a meeti.ng held on the first Monday ia Mairch. 
 
 Q. The flrsft Monday of March was Mairch 4th? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There was a meeting of the association on that day? A. 
 On* that nighit. 
 
80 
 
 Q. Where was that meeting hield? A. In Ol'aren'dioin Hall, 
 Tliivteentli street. 
 
 Q. That is the corner of what? A. Bet-neeii' Third amd Foiurth 
 avenue. 
 
 Q. Wlio was present at that meeting? A. Perfhaps 15 or 18 
 ofBcers. 
 
 Q. You were presemt? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who else? A. The treasiurer was present and Fliina&cial 
 Secretary' Martin. ^ 
 
 Q. Joiseph B. Martim? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was Chiefi Bonner present? A. He never attended any of 
 our uieetings. 
 
 Q. He was not there tlien? A. No. 
 
 Q. Was Chief Croker present? A. T don't reaollect. 
 
 Q. Was Chief Shalw piresieiut? A. I thStnk he was. 
 
 Q. Was Edward H. ToMni present? A. I aJsio think he was 
 present. 
 
 Q. Wais Patrick Horain present? A. I don't think he was. 
 
 Q. Was there any reiooird of the meeting- kepti?' A. I think 
 there was really noithinig done ait ihaM meetinig as thiere was no 
 secretary there; perhaps there was a record, but there was 
 nothing done bait coller{liou of dues; there was ai very small 
 attendan'ce. 
 
 Q. You say there was no secretary there? A. The secretary 
 had died and none had been^ appointed — perhaps the seoretairy 
 was there — I don't know whether he hlad died ait that timie 
 or not, but still I know he wais niot present; I diom'ti reooilleicit the 
 date of his death ; hut I doi know hie was not present. 
 
 Q. How do you know that? A . Becaiuse he walsi niot there. 
 
 Q. Yon remember th^at? A. T remember di'sitilnctly he was not 
 present. 
 
 Q. The name of the secretairy was O'Beilly? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. He is the one who- is deadi? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do you remember any one else whiol was there beside your- 
 self and the treasurer and: Shiaw and Tobiln? A. I could not 
 recollect exactly ; sO' fair ais O'Reilly is conicerned', he h'ad attended 
 one meeting; he haid artitended' but one meeting all winiter; he hias 
 been sick and it might hiaive bteen' that one. 
 
 Q. Do you remember any one else whb wasi thierei? A. T hhink 
 I do not remember any. 
 
 Q. Not anotfcher man? A. T could, pei*hlaps; I can't at this Umle 
 gi\e the n!aime; perhaps there were 15 or 18 present; they were 
 nor there at one tiraje'; one Wionld come in and othlers go. ooitt" it 
 chianisjed abtout. 
 
 Q. Did you have imy spediai meettings of liiie assoeiatikMi' dnriing 
 Mardhl? A 'No, sir, ' ' i ' 
 
91 
 
 Q. Did you hav€! a meeti'iigi of thie assfociatioiiii ion tih.e first 
 Monday of April? A. I thiaik we did. 
 
 Q. Have you hiad' any special mieetinigsi in Apiril iihian; tlhis 
 meeting regarding wMeih I am interrogating youi was th-tei mieettog 
 before the last? A. Tlhlait is all we !h.ad — a meeting each, month. 
 
 Q. Was the first "noe-pireisident, Croiker, there? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was Eugene Turnpenny there? A. I don't tihlnk te waai. 
 
 Q. Was James r. Freel there; the cihaiirmlan of the legislaitiTe 
 comimJilttee? A. I am not sure; I think hie was. 
 
 Q. Was Henry W. McAdams there? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. I notice in your Wills thlat Ereel is put down as .a reipapesentai- 
 tire and McAdams as ani alternate? A. He can bie dilrected by 
 tlie' officers or president to attend to anythilng pertainlnjg to 
 business of the association whientever there was not time toi call 
 a meeting; these legislative matters often arlsiei suddenly and 
 Freel could be notified by mfe toi aitbend at any oertaitai point or 
 place, by representing the officers' assooiatibn of the fire depart- 
 mient. 
 
 Q. Was the director from th'e first battalion, John Bums? 
 A. I ata' not positive. ' 
 
 Q. Was John White the coUeictor of the seoonidl tattalion? A. 
 I can't tell. 
 
 Q. Was Grooderson the collector of the second blattalibn? A. I 
 do not know t!hat. 
 
 Q. It would not be of any use to read off the names to you? 
 A. Some of them have been at one meeting and somie at others; 
 I can't remember back to tell at which meeting. 
 
 Q. What wasi done at thnt meeting? A. The treasurer re- 
 ceived the dues from- the secretary and members in arrears 
 paid up. 
 
 Q. Was the meeting called to order by you? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. T^Tio acted as secretary of the meeting? AL I don't recol- 
 lect; there has been a substitute on so many oicicasions. 
 
 Q. Some of the members present? AL Yes: 
 
 Q. Minutes of the last reading read? A. No; that was dis- 
 I)ensed with. 
 
 Q. Was a motion miade to dispense with thb readfing of the 
 minutes and that was carried? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Can you remember anything' else that was done? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You have already stated youi presented OMef Bonner's 
 resignation? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. What action was taken on his resignation? A It was ac- 
 cepted by a vote of the maiority ; motion was maide and seconded 
 and regularly adopted. ; 
 
 F. 11 
 
82 
 
 Q. Was the motion tWat tiie reBignatioca of Chief Bonner fnom 
 the association be accepted? A. Yea, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there any other action taken? A. I think niot for the 
 reason that there has been very little to doi; I don't recollect; 
 I think there was some talk abtoiut the 2 per cent, tax bill and 
 sending committee to Albamy. 
 
 Q. Any talk there of raising the officers' salairies? A. Nome in 
 the meeting, whatever, that I heard. 
 
 Q. Was there any in or ont of the mieeting to your knowledge 
 that yon heard? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. At what time in the evening did that meeting convene? 
 A. Abont 8 or 8.30. 
 
 Q. Was there any other meeting of the officers on that even- 
 ing, except that meeting in Clarendon Hall? A. That i's all I 
 know about. 
 
 Q. Ton didn't meet with' the officeps at any other office? A. 
 Not that I rocoilect. 
 
 Q. And did you go back to the engine-horaise, to yonr com- 
 paay-house, after the meeting? A. No, sir; that was about the 
 time my little girl had been sick three or forar days; I went 
 promptly to the house; I had aa umderstandikng with the cMef 
 of the battalion that my little girl was very ill, and that the 
 doctors had given her np, and I remiained at hlome until nearly 
 morning. 
 
 Q. Do you remember any remairksi made by CJhief Shaw at that 
 meeting? A. I do mot; I don't recollect that he spoke ait any 
 meeting. 
 
 Q. "Do you remember any reamarks made by GStiief Oroker? A 
 I never heard him speak at any meetaing. 
 
 Q. Yon Wave stated that moist of the board of directors were 
 collectoiTia foir the several battalilons? A. T believe they were all 
 collectors of the severail battalioins. 
 
 Q. Are the membelrls of the board oo'rredtly stated in this 
 little book marked Exhibit 1? A. Yes; it is correctly stated. 
 
 Q. Then the collector for the first battalion is John Bums; foi' 
 the second battalilon is John White ; for the third, William H. Nash; 
 for the fourth, James P. Barrett; for the fifth, W. M. McLaughlin ; 
 top the sixth, Timothy BToran; for the seventh, William A, Cook; 
 for the eighth, John J. Eagan; for t^e ninth, Edward.^H. Tobin; 
 for the tenth, Joseph Shaw; for the eleventh battalion, F. W. 
 Groioderson; for the twelfth battalion, Samuel Best; and for the 
 thirteenth battalion, John Ward: is that correct? A. All correct. 
 
 Q. Do these collectors have other duties ih regard to collections 
 except receiving $1 a month from the memibers olf thte associa- 
 tion? A. That is all. 
 
■ 83' 
 
 Q. How do they collect that $1 a month? A. In most cases 
 the officers either pay it on pay day or very soon afterward; 
 they turn over |1 a month to the collector of the battalion, and 
 he, in turn, gives them a receipt for |1; and he turns the totaJ 
 aimount over to the secretary; the secretary, in turp, would giVe 
 him a receipt and so on until it reaiches the treasurer. 
 
 Q. Then the course was to collect this dollar olf the officers 
 shortly after pay-day? A. Soon after the first of the month; it 
 was not always paid up in full. 
 
 Q. After getting it together the ciolleotior turned iit over to the 
 secretary? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And he in turn over to the treasurer and go* a reoeipt? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The treasurer is Willilam J. Ctolby? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Whien you speak of the secretary you mean the financial 
 secreitairy? A. Yesy sir. 
 
 Q. If any of these collectors colleotedi more tham |1 a month 
 from mtembers of the asisocia.tion it was not in pursuance of any 
 rules or provisionsi of the aissoicalatioDj? A. It wasi not. 
 
 Q. Wihy did youi go to Payn for his assistance ini regaird to the 
 2 per cent tax bill? A. Because I tlhonght Payn had some 
 influence in Albany, am:d because hei was a particular frilend of 
 mime and would do me a favor. 
 
 Q. "Whlat influence did you tlh ii ^ ik ' he had at Albany? A. I pre- 
 sumed he had some influence; I don't know what way th^ work 
 or how the influence -i!s brought about, but I presiumed he had 
 some ikfluenee. 
 
 Q. Did you ever asfc him what way hte workeid? A- I ntever 
 asked him' about it; I don't know anything aibont politics. 
 
 Q. My question was nJot addressed -to politics; my question ite 
 whether you asked Payn in what way he worked? A- I went 
 to Payn because he was a politilcian, and because ve wanted' a 
 favor. 
 
 Q. You say you understood laie was ilnfluiential ? A. That had 
 been my observatiouL 
 
 Q. Whiat had been your observationi that led you toi blelieve 
 that? A. Because he always hlad been to my knowledge con- 
 nected more or less with politics. 
 
 Q. That is all? A. That is all I khotw of. 
 
 Q. He didn't live in Albany a* all? A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Did you ever knoiw of his lihTinig in Albany at any timie? A. 
 Only duninig the periold he milgiht be there in the winter. 
 
 Q. During the siession of thfe Legisla,ture? A. That is all. 
 
 Q. How long hlad you known of him! being ita Albany duiing the 
 sessiton of thie Legilslaturie'? A. 7ust thb dates' I saw himi there. 
 
84 
 
 Q. Thiait all yora klniow abou* it? A. Yea, sir. 
 
 Q. You didn't imdaisitand lie spent his timie in Al'bamy during 
 the seaaiomi? A. I did niotlj I didn't know Iww long oir liow short 
 Ms stay would be. 
 
 Q. You didn't unlderstanidi Eayn was engaged particmlarly in 
 the ppomO'tio'n' of measures before the Legislature? A. I did not 
 understand it. 
 
 Q. You diidn't understand that he had any habitual or custom- 
 ary engagemient im lagjstliaitive matters? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Yotn didn't understamd he was iln the habit of lookinig after 
 legislation in Albany? A. I presumed he was in the habit of 
 looking after legisilatiloin in Albany. 
 
 Q. From w^hat did you presumle that? A. Not amy particular 
 reason'; I took a guess that wiay. 
 
 Q. Was it from your own kiuiowledge? A. I tell you I under- 
 stood he was in Albany because of politi'oa, audi I thought he 
 would help us and went to see Uim. 
 
 Q. 'Wlhlat led you to guiess he was in Albany beioause of politics? 
 A. I have no answer to give other than that I did; Paym has been 
 a politician. 
 
 Q. Do you know of Payni as a regular! lobbyist at Albany? 
 A. No, sir; I only learned what the real meaning of lobbyist is 
 since this thing started- 
 
 Qt Siiice what started? A. Tlhis article ini the paper. 
 
 Q. You didn't know before the articles in the papers what a 
 lobbyist was? A. No* really; I haVe to pleaid ignoranoa 
 
 Q. You had no idea of whiat a loblbyist was? A. I could guess 
 a little at that 
 
 Q. Oould you make a pretty good guess? A. I don't know; I 
 could not hare guessied' a dieflnitian of the whole of itL 
 
 Q. You hare acquired some itaformlation whiohJ leads you to 
 realize somethinlg to ilt you loould not have guessed biefore? A. 
 Some of the expressions in the paper were unusual. 
 
 Q. You testify under oath that you never had heard of Payn 
 being a lobbyist at Albany before you went to him abouit this 
 matter? A. 1 testify under oath that Payn is a politician and 
 not a lobbyiilst; this is the first time T am informed of the correct 
 meaning of the term lobbyist. 
 
 Q. Wliat do you understand that meaning to be? A I under- 
 stand certain papers had said Payn is a lobbyist, and if he is or 
 not I can't tell. 
 
 Q. You say the first tiaae you understood the meaning of the 
 term; what do you now understand the meaning of thie term 
 is? A- ^y ^* general term' used by the papers it would mean 
 a man Was there fdir wharti thtere was in it; I had never un'der- 
 Btood it in that way. 
 
85 
 
 Q. Is thiat wliat you now luinidteirstaiid? A. Tliat is thie wajy I 
 would construe th.e artides I bave read. 
 
 Q. You never understood tlhajt Payn was there for what there 
 was in it? A. I really would umdierstand that he was not from 
 what dealings I had witih hliini. 
 
 Q. You at that time had heard the word lobibyilst? A. I didn't 
 pay any attention to it. 
 
 Q. It meant to your mind what? A. I supposed it m^jit some 
 kind of a politician who could reach a good ways. 
 
 Q. In that sense do you understand Payn was. mot a lobbyoHt? 
 A. I thought he was a politician; I thought he was a. politicdlain 
 above the charge of bieing corriipt. 
 
 Q. And for that reason youi went to Mm? A. I did. 
 
 Q. Where were the funds of this aaeociation kept? A. The 
 .treasurer kept the funds; he was not directed to give bond^; he 
 had authority to keep the funds in hiiisi possession, and wais re- 
 quested by me to keep iu' his posisessi'on mOney toi be drawn 
 upon occasion of short notice. 
 
 Q. Where did he keep the money? A. Mr. Oolby can answer 
 that better himself. 
 
 Q. You got checks from him? A. I have go* chtecks from him 
 on the bank. ' 
 
 Q. Yon spoke of a voucher tor $134; how did) you get thkt 
 money? A. Mr. Golby wonld have his funds idepoisited in a bank, 
 a savings bank, and could not issne checks; he would draw the 
 money and send to me in cash usually. 
 
 Q. ])id you ever get checks from him? A. He has, on some 
 occasions, given the money to some person who would write a 
 check, and he would send that check toi me. 
 
 Q. Do you know in' what bank he keeps the money of the asso- 
 ciation ? A. Money of the association^ that which isi not in his 
 possession, is in the bank at Thiilrty-eighith street and Fourth 
 avenue. 
 
 Q. He keeps an account there as treasnrer of the association? 
 A. I do mot know. 
 
 Q. I want to know where he keeps the money? A. If he de- 
 posits it, I understand it isi at Thirty-eighth street and Foniirth 
 avenue; I have been doiwni there when he drew money. 
 
 Q. Yora don't remembeir the namie of the bank? A. I do nofe 
 
 Q. How often have you been there with Oolby when he drew 
 money? A. Just once. 
 
 Q. When was that? A. When we went to draw the money 
 td set aside as a contingent fund. 
 
 Q. Where do you keep the |?jOO? A. In my pocket. 
 
 Q. You don't keep it tu a bank? A. "No, sir. 
 
Q. Do yon Jieep a bank acconnt? A. No, siPj I never did. 
 
 Q. When did you draw that $500? A. In 1894; in Octoberj or 
 about that time. 
 
 Q. Hare you been to the bamk at the comer of Thirty-eighth 
 street and Fourth avenuie, since? A. I don't recollect that 1 
 have dnoe. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether these collectors ke^ the money 
 which they collect in any bank? A- They surely would not. 
 
 Q. Hardly large enough amounts? A. It would not exceed 
 $15 or |20 in any battalion, amid it would be turned avem in a 
 week or so, which has been done iln all cases. 
 ■ Q. Do you know whether the secretary turns over directly to 
 the treasurer or depositB in a bank and then gives checks to the 
 treasurer? A. He makes no deposits to my knowledge; he turns 
 over as soion as he has time. 
 
 Q. You remember the publication in The Rress that led to this 
 investigation? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see it the day it was published? A- Noi, Bir; I 
 heard abooit it, and was advised not to read that article, for 
 the reasiom Hiat I would be called before the board of fire com- 
 missioners, and I didn't read any of the papers until I went there, 
 so I would go there ignorant of everything. 
 
 Qt Prior to that time did you hear any talk about the raising 
 of money to secure the increase of offtcers' salaries? A. 'No, ear. 
 
 Q. Prior to that time had you never heard any except the 
 rumors in the department? A. Not about the oificera' increase 
 and not about the officers raising money. 
 
 Q. You have never, at any time, heard any suggestiob that 
 officers were raising money to get their salaries increased? A- 
 Never. 
 
 Q. NeveTi any rumor of th'at kind either among the officers ox 
 among the men? A. I don't know anything about the men. 
 
 Q. I now ask you what you did hear? A, Nothing like that 
 peached my ears. 
 
 Q. If there was any talk of that kind it was unknown to you? 
 A. Wholly so. 
 
 Q. And the only thing you had ever done or known to be done 
 was the conversation with Payu' which you have recounted here? 
 A. That is all I have done or known to be done. 
 
 Q. Does it strike you that yoiu have heard the testimony here 
 of Clifford? A. I did. 
 
 Q., And of Mr. Rothemhausler? A. I have. 
 
 Q. Didn't it strike you as a little singular that this amend- 
 ment should be put on a salary bill providing for an increase of 
 the officers' salary without you, as president of the association/, 
 
87 
 
 knowing whiat had happened? A. It pleased the oflaoers of the 
 department to think they were to be recognized at Albany, but it 
 did not hjave any effect oif that kind on me, for thie neason thali 
 the Jlre depaTtmenit had. been recognized on many occasions with!- 
 OTit solicitation. 
 
 Q. It didn't strike yoiu as siagular? A. Not to me. 
 
 Q. Did you wonder how it came aboat? A, I didn't wond^*; 
 I let the thing take its course. 
 
 Q. You didn't aisk Payn blow it ha.ppened? A. I didn't ask 
 him that; I perhaps would have if I had thought of it. 
 
 Q. You didn't ask anybody how it happened? A. Nobody J 
 had a conversation with that I believed had any knowledge. 
 
 Q. You didli't ask any officer if he knew h.ow it happened that 
 thjis amendment was put on? A. I did tear the officers express 
 themselves as beiug pleased that they were likely to get an 
 increase of pay, but I didn't ask them that 
 
 Q. No officer asked you how the amendment was put on? A- 
 • They might have asked me; I could not tell them; I can't say yes 
 or noi; I don't think they did. 
 
 Q. Your mind is without any memory whatever of any inquiry 
 among the officers as to how it happened that the amendment 
 was put on? A. I have no recollection of having any conversa- 
 tion, other than I have explained, and no knowledge of that fact. 
 
 Q. Did yo!u hear any other officers express any surprise at 
 that amendment being put on? A. I didn't hear them; no. 
 
 By Mr. Eaiaes: 
 
 Q. When, with reference to your hearing of the amendment, 
 was it that you had a talk with Payn? A. It was only a sh,ort 
 while before that. 
 
 Q. It wias before that? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you definite in your recollection as to whether that 
 talk between you and Payn was in Albany or New York? A. I 
 have seen Mm both in New York and at Albany; I am siure h© 
 mentioned that fact to me in Albtoy. 
 
 Q. About h.ow long do you say it was' before yota saw the 
 amendment to the bill ? A. I am not positive that the first con- 
 versation was at Albany whien I come to think of it; I think the 
 first conversation was at the Grand Union Hotel wlien hie spoke 
 about that salary bill. i 
 
 Q. It might have been at the Grand Union Hotel? A It 
 might have been, but that conversation took place before the 
 amendment appeared in the newispapersi. 
 
 Q. Do yon know of Payn being in the stome biusiilneiss? A. I 
 have known of his being comnectedL with quarriea 
 
88 
 
 Q. For ihow long? A. A niumber of yeara 
 Q. Haa lie been in the ^aw paper tmsiness? A. Yes, sir; for 
 a nilmber of years. 
 
 Lemuuiel B. Qiiigg, being recailled and furthier exiaaniitned by Mr. 
 Kaines, testified as folliaws: 
 
 Q. During wiiat years were yon a reaidenit of Flmsihing? A- 
 I was a resident of riusiiiilng foir aibont 10 yeaacisi praloiri to 1883, I 
 thinli. 
 
 Q. Dniring what years was your employment on the Flnsihing 
 Times? A. I edited the Mushing paper for aibouit three or four 
 years; endiulg in about 1886, I think. 
 
 Q. What time did you leave The Tilmesi in 1886? A. I left 
 The Times substantially before that; I got rid of it about that 
 time? 
 
 Q. What time m 1886? A. I won't be able to say; I think in 
 1886 I finally got rid of it. 
 
 Q. WTien did you quit dookig editorial work on The Times? A. 
 About the year before I disposed of it. 
 
 Q. Where did you go then to work? A. On the New York 
 Tribune. 
 
 Q. You edited the Flushing Times sufficiently to be indicted 
 for libel on a man named Downing? A. Yea; sufficiently to get 
 six libel suitsi 
 
 Q. You charged Downing with some indecent oonduet toward a 
 lady t^icher? A. I won't undlertake to repeat the charge I mlade. 
 
 Q. Was that the STibstanoe of it? A. ScBircely. 
 
 Q. An indecent address to la lady teacher? A. Yes; whten 
 you use the word address yrou have it correct. 
 
 Q. You imputed to him immoral suggestions to a lady teacher? 
 A. I did. 
 
 Q. And for that you were indicted? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And for that you were tried in the criminal coiirt of Quieens 
 county? A. Yes, sir; and convicted and sentenced. 
 
 Q. To pay a fine of $500 or 500 daya? A. No; only a $500 
 fine, aind I paid the fine; I do mot know the legal result of not 
 paying the fine. 
 
 Q. Was not your sentence that you pay $500 fine or be im- 
 prisoned 500 days? A. It was not. 
 
 Q. Will you look at this certified copy of the record of that 
 sentence? A. I see it. 
 
 (\^^itness shown paper.) 
 
 Q. It is there, is it not? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You were mistaken in your last answer? A, I didn't hear 
 
89 
 
 Q. Were you in court? A- I was, aind I hieamdi tlie sentence, 
 the being fined |500 and I paid it. • 
 
 Q. And the fact of the imprisionnxeait escaped your attention? 
 A. It was not menitioineS. 
 
 Q. So you are what Is known as a oonTlcted libeller? A. T 
 haive been) convicted of libel. 
 
 Q. You! paid the fine? A. I did. 
 
 Q. Did you appeal from the oouTiction? A. I did not. 
 
 Q. The date of that coUYiictiotni was Maindh 8, 1886? A. I should 
 thinik likely. ' 
 
 Q. After that ciomTictibml for libtel yora left the Flushin!| Times? 
 A. I hiad left the Times a year 'before th'at. 
 
 Q. Were you employed upon the New York Times? A. I was. 
 
 Q. Duiring what year? A. I doi mot know; it was, I should 
 say, about 1881 or 1882, b^ut I eaiD't say. 
 
 Q. You were dilsch'arged? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. By whom? A. Mr. Bteed. 
 
 Q. Who coammunicated the discihairge to you? A. I don't re- 
 member; Mr. Lowenthal, I tiMSik; he was city editor. 
 
 Q. For what were you disidharged? A. I don't remember 
 preciisely. 
 
 Q. Possible you don't remlem^ber, Mr. Quigg? A. [ have told 
 you I don't remeimbeir. 
 
 Q. 1 j?enew the' inquiry, do youi not remiember? A. I do not 
 remember; there was a oontroviersy bietween usi 
 
 Q. Are you now s+aitiinig your meimory asi tO' why you were dis*- 
 chairged? A. I am' stating the circuimBtaiiicesi soi far as I know. 
 
 Q. You have only been asked to state why you were dischja/rged? 
 A. I was telling the drcumstanciea 
 
 Q. You will answer no more? A. I certainly will answei* the 
 (piestion; as I was saying, there was a comtroversy bet-.veen 'ue 
 and somebody whom I was sent to interview — T forget who' it 
 was — as to the process he had used iin connection vnih. the 
 an'tiole; I had 'been on the paper two or tih'ree weeks and Mr. Eepd 
 dismissed me; I held that I had reported^ the person accurately 
 and he held I had niot, audi subsequently Mr. Eeed took me back 
 about a week later; I was on the paper until I left it -voluntarily 
 some mionths thereafter. 
 
 Q. Was not the question in controversy between, you and 
 Lowenthal that you wrote am interviiew, or what purported to 
 be an interview, without seeing the mam at all? iL No, sir. 
 
 Q. You wiere not Charged with writing a fakie interview with 
 the mam? A. "No, sir; nor will Mr. LowenthW say so. 
 
 (EeclesB taken until 2:30 o'clock.) 
 F. 12 
 
90 
 
 Tke oomiDQiittee reaomvened at 2:30 rfclook pursuant to recess 
 taken. • 
 
 Tbe examination of Mr. Quigg was oontiinuedj by Mr. Raines : 
 
 Q. Wlhat induced you to take ani interest in th.e judicial sales 
 bill? A. The request of friends of mine. 
 
 Q. Grive the names of tbe friends? A. Mr'. Lyster called on me. 
 
 Q. Any one else? A. He called with a gentleman whose name 
 I don't recollect J I sihaill in a mimute-^lhie cialled with, a gentle- 
 man wihiose name I don't remiem'ber at this momient, but he had 
 been a friend of mine. 
 
 Q. Amy one else? A. No; they called togetlher. 
 
 Q. Thiait tbe extent of your interest in the bill? A. Yea; sub- 
 stantially. 
 
 Q. Were other persons and friends of yours interested in that 
 bill? A. I think several spoke to me about it, but 1 had no 
 couTCrsation of any impoirtance except with Lyster. 
 
 Q, Did he give you the names of other friends interested in 
 the bill? A. No. 
 
 Q. When was that talk? A. Some time the latter part of 
 Decembelr. ^ 
 
 Q. And all you did in connection with the juidilcial sales bill 
 was in consequence of that? AL Yes. 
 
 Q. That bill was to change the place of holdinig judicial sales 
 from the place fixed by the General Term? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. To a building owned by a private corporatilon? A. The Eeal 
 Estate Exchange is lihe building owned by some stock corpora- 
 tion; I assume so. 
 
 Q. A!nd in which your friends were interested? A. I dare say. 
 
 Q. Hadi any application been miaide to the Supreme Court on 
 the subject of changing the place of holding sales? A. I am 
 not informed. 
 
 Q. On the merits you took it foT granted that Lyster knew 
 more about what was proper than the General Tei-m of the 
 Supreme Court? A. I assumed that Lyster was right. 
 
 Q. Did you make any examimlation into the merits of the bill? 
 A. I have been somewhat familiar with the facts in the case. 
 
 Q. You have been mJade familiar by reports of newspapers? 
 A. From what 1 had seen of newspapers. 
 
 Q. You have been talked with on tiie subject of the necessity 
 of a change? A. No^ sir. 
 
 Q. This was purely a matter; of Mendship? A. It was. 
 
 Q. No finiamcial consideration? A. None whatever. 
 
 Q. Didln't it oicicur to you it would be just as well to get the 
 opinion of the judgeisi of the General Term? A. It did not. 
 
 Q. Who are the General Term justioes that made that order? 
 
91 
 
 Q. Y<m dMn't stop to inquire about the merits of thi© matten? 
 A. Not about that phiaae of it. 
 
 Q. Where had the sales been previous to that? A. They had 
 always been at 111 Broadway; 111 Broiadway was the oiffioe of the 
 Beai Esla-te Exchange; the cioiPparatLoiiii toi which you have 
 referred is in laiberty sitneet, and as I ami infomiled, tihe order of 
 the Supreme Ooiurt was mlade at the tiime when the Reial Estate 
 Exchange was at 111 Broadvytay. 
 
 Q. So it was nioitl the miatter of tlhle merits of the bill that 
 interested you as miuicih as friendship? A. If onie is true bloth aare 
 true. 
 
 Q. Was the iHatter of politicis iu' it? A. Thiait was not 
 alto'getiher out of it. 
 
 Q. Were Lysiter and those other gemtlemem with you in 
 polities? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You slay politics were in it? A. My opinioni of it is that 
 the order obtained thait ga,ve the Real Estate Etsdhange the sales 
 of real estate; that gaive it to the exchange controlled, by Myers, 
 who is a partner of Oroker, was a soamdalous proceeding; the 
 giving of the order struck me as a scamidalouis proceeding. 
 
 Q. Has it ever been made the srabject of complaint to the judges 
 of the General Term? A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Do you understand that the justices of the G-enieral Term 
 were aware of the sicandalous nature of their order? A I have 
 no information of what they were aware of. 
 
 Q. Do you use that term " scandalous " in oonmieotion with the 
 General Term judges? A. I didn't apply it to the General Teim 
 justices; I dO' not know their sentilmientsL 
 
 Q. Such orders are mlade in the discretion of the judges? A. I 
 do not knoiw. 
 
 Q. Did yoiu try toi ftnd out? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You mjerely say that it was sort of a scandalous proioeeding, 
 without imputing to them' any of the sdamdal? A Preoisiely. 
 
 Q. And without briinginig before them the nature of the 
 scandal? A. I miade mo such effort. 
 
 Q. Were you in thoH purely as a matter of friendship on your 
 part or did you have an interest in: the cihamging, of the place? 
 A. I will say that my interest proceeded fromi three considera- 
 tions: Mrst, the judicial sales of real estate sihould be ''on- 
 ducted in thie Real Estate Exchange, in which the real estate 
 interests of this city are almost entirely consolidated, and where, 
 as I believie, the interests of wards cian be much better served; 
 where much better prices for real estate can be obtainied than in 
 such oorporationa as that run by Croker's firm; 'another wasi tiiat 
 the genftliemian, Mr. Lyster, who. Risked me was a friend; atnd 
 friends who spoke to me albotut the bill, now too numerous to 
 
92 
 
 menftSoini, were Mend's of ininie and' resildenitsi of my district, aiud 
 tiie second eonsi'deration induced me to take moine interest dn the 
 matter than I should Jiave taken. 
 
 Q. Wihat was the third'? A. Thlat was miore or lesS' poilittioal; I 
 thiongiht it a desirable tthing to take awaiy from Oroiter'si flmn the 
 judicial sales of real estata 
 
 Q. WWat info!nnationotpknowledlgelh!ady'0(uasta Crokeir beinig 
 connecited with that flrml? A. Very largely fTOm Mi". Lyster. 
 
 Q. Are you not awaire as a matter of fact now that Oroker was 
 not interested in thie ftrm? A. No. 
 
 Q. You never cared to inquire ? A. I heme inquiiried. 
 
 Q. Have you any kmoiwledge? A. Only the result of my 
 inquiries. 
 
 Q. Can youi give amy niamies of persons wiho^siaid Oroker was 
 interested in that Efeal Estate Exdhiange? A Mr. Oroker's firm, of 
 wkicii hie isi a partner, is interested irn the exohianga 
 
 Q. Can you give the naime of any person? A. Lyster. 
 
 Q. Any one else? A. I don't remem.ber. 
 
 Q. Did Lyster say he knew he was itnterested? A. I don't re- 
 miember what he said about it. 
 
 Q. Was it aot a fact that some of these gentlemien' who camie to 
 you had taken oonsDderable interest in your oampialign asi a can- 
 didate for Congress? A. Not a oonstiderable interest. 
 
 Q. Had some of them given checks for poilitical purposes last 
 fall? A. Not one. 
 
 Q- Hadn't given any cheeks to Mr. Leary? A. Nlot one. 
 
 Q. Didn't you receive any checks for political purposes? A. 
 I dare say I may have. 
 
 Q. Can you recollect the names of any? A. No; I gave such 
 checks as I received — I remember one check I received from 
 the State committee; I dtm't remember another check I received 
 personally; yes, I remember one sent to me by Mr. Piatt; it was 
 another man's check; other than those two I don't remember. 
 
 Q. You don-'t remember any oither check? A, No, sir. 
 
 Q. These came in your hands personally? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Did you indorse them? A. I did. 
 
 Q. Those were for amounts upwards of $1,000? A. No, sir;- 
 one was for |50 and another was for |250, I think. 
 
 Q. ThOB^ thie only two checks that came into your hands? 
 A. Yes; the only ones I remember. 
 
 Q. Search your memory for those who gave you personal 
 checks — A. I have told yon all I remember; I took very little 
 interest in that phaise of the cainpaign. 
 
 Q. Did checks come to Leary? A. None. 
 
 Q. You say none? A. None, 
 
93 
 
 Q. Do you knoTT of any? A. I don't believe any did, but very 
 many did to Mr. Einstein. 
 
 Q. Mr. Einstein had wliat delation to yon? A. He had as- 
 sumed the work of collecting money and of paying the expenses 
 of my campaign: 
 
 Q. Some of that money you expended yourself? A, None. 
 
 Q. Youj paid none of the bills yourself? A. If one. 
 
 Q. Did you turn over any checksi to Einstein yourself? A. 
 Yes; such checks as came to me. 
 
 Q. Did a man by the name of Gruber make collections for your 
 campaign? A. I think not. 
 
 Q. Did you tell Gruber about any moneys that camel to your 
 hand? A. I think not; a friend of Mr. Gruber's made some col- 
 lectioins from me; I don't think Gruber had anything to do with 
 it; I think he turned themj over toi Einstein; I know he didn't 
 hand them over to me ; his name isi Einke. 
 
 Q. Did you tell this friend Gruber the amount that came into 
 your hands for the purposes of your campaigni? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or that checks were given to you? A. Not that I re- 
 member. 
 
 Q. You won't swear you didn't? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you tell M. Bobee that checks came to your hand? A. 
 I think niot. 
 
 Q. Do you remember what you told him? A. I don't remem- 
 ber anything about it. 
 
 Q. Do you remember telling him any particular amount con- 
 tributed to your campaign? A, No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you tell him you had $3,500, or any other sum? Ah 
 No, sir. , 
 
 Q. Do yoii know J. H. LaMeyer? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you tell him about amy moneys that oame to your 
 hands? A. Not that I remember. 
 
 Q. Do you say you did not? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did any of thiese gentlem,ega interested in the judicial sales 
 bill contribute to Einstein, or those persons named, monley for 
 poditioal purposes? A. I think not one. 
 
 Q. Do you know any? A. I do not; T know very little about it. 
 
 Q. Have you not siaid, or stated, at least several times, that 
 persons who were interested in judicial Biales Mil had all con- 
 tributed money to your campaigni? A. I never said it. 
 
 Q. And that was the reason you took an interest in the Mil? 
 A. I never said it to anybody. 
 
 Q. And that it was a matter of gratitude on your part? A. I 
 never said that to anybody. ' 
 
Q. Did you state that j<m were under obligationsi to -some per- 
 sons interested in this bill? A. I said they were political and 
 personal friends of mine, undoubtedly. 
 
 Q. Did yoiu tell Payn at any time they had contributed a large 
 amoiunt? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. That they had contributed any amount? A. No, sir; I had 
 no conversation with! Payn. 
 
 Q. At any time? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. At any time at which contributions came up? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. When yoiui were talking about the judiciaJ sales bill and 
 soliciting his support? A. 1 never solicited his support. 
 
 Q. Did you have a conversation witih him? A. Yes; I had a 
 conversation with him on the day when the firemen's bill was 
 reported from the Senate committee at Albany. 
 
 Q. After it was reported or before? A. Before. 
 
 Q. Was there a conversatibn, in regard to the judicial sales 
 bill? A. Yes;. Mr. Payn said now the firemen's bUl is disjwsed 
 of to your satisfaction he supposed I would stop taking aiction 
 upon the Eeal Estate Exchange bill, andl said I would certainly 
 do nothing of the sort, and he said there was no use trying to 
 do anything about it, It would never come out of the committee, 
 and I assured him I should try. 
 
 Q. Did you ask for support of the bill? A I did not 
 
 By Senator Mullin: 
 
 Q. Did Paym startle why it could not come out of the commit- 
 tee? A. He siaid it was tied up there. 
 
 Q. Say why? A No. ' 
 
 Q. Did he give any reasons? A. He said I knew what 
 reasons he had, and I told him' he was mjlstaken; I didn't know. 
 
 Q. Did you solicit Ms support at all ? A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Is thsit the only time the judi'cial sales bill was talked 
 about? A. It is all; hfe introduced tlie conversation. 
 
 Q. At the time you applied to Raines for his support of that* 
 bill, did you tell him gentlemeui had contributed $3,500 to your 
 campaign? A. I never said anythiing of the sort to Eaines. 
 
 Q. Would you say as strongly you never said it to anybody? 
 A. That people interested in the judicial sales bill had contrib- 
 uted $3,500 or any other sum to my campaign; I say I never 
 said that to anybody. 
 
 Q. Is it a fact that they did? A. It is a fact they did not. 
 
 Q. You swear to knowledge on that point? A. Yes; I will 
 talie Mr. Einstein's word for it; my acquaaintance with him 
 began after the campaign. 
 
95 
 
 Q. Whten did you aicquiadntaiioe with Oruger commLence? A. I 
 don't know Mm now. 
 
 Q. You know wIlo lie is? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You know thaic he has contributed to your campaign, of 
 course? A. He did not. 
 
 Q. Do yoiu know that? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any takne thait you told anybody you would attack 
 Payn and the SenaitMrs if they continued to oppose the judiciaJ 
 sales bai? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or Senators opposed to the firemen's bill; that you told 
 anybody that? A. No. 
 
 Q. You are positive? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You mean to be understood toi cover the whole matter of 
 threatening conversation with regard to the nse of your power 
 in attacking the reputation of anybody who opposed the judicial 
 sales bill? ' A. I mean to cover it completely. 
 
 Q. In your conversation with, Sheffield didn't you tell himj you 
 were now going to print it? A. I told him T was going to 
 print it. 
 
 Q. You told him that in your 6 o'clock interview the evening 
 before the printing? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How did you get hold of Sheffield? A. I sent for him. 
 
 Q. At that time did you haive your Albany dispatches in regard 
 to the action of the judiciary committee? A. I did not; I don't 
 get my dispatches until late in the evening; I had seen it aln tihe 
 afternoon papers. 
 
 Q. You knew the circumstances? A. No. 
 
 Q. You knew Ooggeshall an;d Eaines voted against it? A. 'I 
 don't think I did; if it was in the aftemootn papers I knew it. 
 
 Q. Didn't you tell Sheffield that your dispatchesi showed who 
 votJed against the judicial sales bill ? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You knew it before yoto sat down toi write this article? 
 A, Tlhiat! may or may noit be true; if it was in the afternoon 
 , papers, I knew it. , 
 
 Q. Didn't you see your own dispatches from Albany on that 
 subject? A. I didn't get them until probably 11:30 or 12 o'clock. 
 
 Q. What time did you finish writing this article? A. About 
 8 o'clock. 
 
 Q. Did you not sit up until about 2 o'clock to get it flnishedl? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. To finish the editorial article? A. No, sir; I sat up until 
 2 o'clock, but not to get thm article finished. 
 
 Q. Were you writinig on thiem at 2? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. When did you commence them? A. After I got my dinner; 
 I tihink I began about 7 o'clock, and' I think I had entirely coQi- 
 cluded at 8:30 or 9; I dictated thiem; I will say frankly that the 
 
96 
 
 aicttom of iSbie two Senators on the judicial 8aile» bill affected my 
 writing thje article. 
 
 Q. When did that come to yonn Imoiwledge? A. In the after- 
 niooni or late at night; if it was in the afternoon papers I waa 
 a^wiare of hioiw the vote was taken ; I knew in the afternoon that 
 tihiel iudidal sales bill bad not been reported, and the jsieoonflt 
 cnlnsideration that determined me toi write the article was the 
 action of the judiciary committee on the judicial sales bill and 
 the actibta of the Senate on the reorganization bill. 
 
 (Paper sihoiwn witnesa) 
 
 Q. Theism are yoiur dispatches in regard to the judicial sales 
 bill? 
 
 (Counsel read's' from the issue of The Press, Tuesday momimg,^ 
 April 18, 1895, a portion of the heading of the Albany dispajtche® 
 that relaites to the judicial sales bili, as follows): 
 
 " Judicial sales bill burkeld in committee by the votes of Sen- 
 ators Raines alnd Ooggesh'all." 
 
 (Counsel also reads from a portion of the coarespondence as 
 fodlows) : 
 
 " TAMMAlsrr PUI JiS FOE CROKER. 
 
 " Some mysterious influence is still at work in the interest of 
 Richard Croker. It is beihg displayed in the opposition which! 
 thte judicial siales bill is experiencing iai the Senate judiciary 
 committee. Thus far the Tammany men are justified in the asr 
 surance with which they declare that the bill is dead. "With thte 
 aid of two Senators elected as Republicans, they have sua 
 Qeeded in keeping it in committee. 
 
 " Senator Mullini tried this morning to have it reported favor- 
 ably. He insisted on a poll being tal^en, hoping that not even 
 behind thei scene of the closed doom of an executive meeting 
 would Republicans go on record against a measure that sought 
 simply to undo a wrong which Croker had, for his personal gain, 
 succeeded in having done in 1892." 
 
 Q. At that time you knew Raines had voted for the police 
 reorganization bill? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. So far, in using his name in the article, you were notWvedi 
 by the consideration of his action in regard to, the police reor- 
 ganization^ bill ? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q^ You were moved solely with regard to his action on the 
 judicial sales bill? A, No. 
 
 Q. You just told us you were moved by two considerations'; 
 the action of the Senate in regard to the reorganization bill and 
 the judicial sales bill ? A. That is it, precisely. 
 
 Q. Then it was not in Ms case the reorgianization bill, but 
 solely the judicial sales bill? A. I cam say exactly wha* I mean; 
 
97 
 
 Senatoir Raines' name tad beeoi eommnnicated to me as one of 
 tWe three Senators who had been mentioned in- the conTersatiom 
 between firemen Smith, and Eioitihenhausler; I concJnded to 
 print this article, Anally, when the information came from' 
 Albany of the votes of the action of the judiciary committee upon 
 the real eistate bill, and of the action of the Senate npon the 
 reorganization bill; I thought it was time then to print the 
 article. , 
 
 Q. In regard to him, the moving consideration was the judicial 
 sales bill? A. I shall not admit anything in regard to him, as 
 distinguished from the rest of them. 
 
 Qi. This editorial artide appearin'g on page 4 of The Press of 
 April 18, 189'5, was written by you? A Yes, sir. 
 
 (Editorial head " Bad Business at Albany," in the first column 
 of the fourth paige, and contihuing for a few words on the top 
 of the second column is offered in evidenice, and the stenoigrapiher 
 instructed to inooirpioiriaitle thiisi in Ms teatimloiny.) 
 
 « BAD BUSINESS AT ALBANY. 
 
 "In presenting, as is dome elsewhere in to-day's Press', some 
 facts that have comle to our lajttlentioni with regard toi the raising 
 of a loorruption fund amomg the 'offloers of the fire depairttaent to 
 influenioe legiHlatiom . at Albany, we are not unmindful of the 
 duty of a newspiaper to avoid trifling with mien's reputatiionis. 
 The Presis is not a siensationial! newspaper nor one that thiniks 
 lightly of the valuei of a good niame. But, as a Eiepublimn 
 journal, having regard for the honor of the Eepublicani party, we 
 are nortl willing to shut eyes, eairsi and mouth while a few lUer- 
 cenary and dishonest Eiepubiiclani officiate bietray and wreck the 
 party, cause its failure to redeem' its pledges, and bring upon it 
 the indignation and repiro&iches of the people. 
 
 " There is no use ini attiemptinig to diaguisie the fact that this is 
 precaisely what is being done. There aire three or four Republican 
 Senators at Albaaiy who have been guilty of acts that aire hard to 
 reconcile with good miotives and these men aire stamdamg agaihst 
 almost every measure which' the decent sientiment of the Repub- 
 lican party demands to he paissied. The facts with regard to the 
 firemen's bill are espeoially peirtin;ent just nOiw, because they 
 suggest what may be la common! motiive for all of these bad per- 
 f ormanoes. So fair aisi the officers of the fire department are con- 
 cerned, they ape really to be more pitied than blamied for what 
 they have dome. The uihifoirmed forces of thisi city have been 
 taught by a dozen experienices that the only way by which they 
 cam obtain' any legiislaitiomi, just and necessairy or otherwisie, for 
 
 F. . 13 
 
98 
 
 their blenefit or iihiedir relief is "bj blnibing liie dozen or Waif-doaen 
 officials wlio mate it a biuisiki'esB tld piaait tiliemHelye& ini tJie way of 
 amy piiopoisition oiut of wMch. extortion is possible. This sorb of 
 knaveiry has got to oome to am len'd. It has been exMbited in 
 some of its moist odioixs forms durihig the last 12 months, and, 
 indeed, until the people toive become aJmiast sickenied at the 
 spectacle. But still it seemsi to' flourish, and the only way we 
 know of by wMch it cam be stopped ts to go on exposing it until 
 at last some higli' amd malghty boodler has had the Sitiipes pnt on 
 hini and a good heavy ball of cast-iron chained to his leg. 
 
 "The facts with regard to the vote that was taken; in the 
 Senate on Tuesday, giving to poiliciem,en the right of appeal from 
 the decisions of thie commission clharged wliih' the dnty of 
 reorganizing tlie force, poimt directly toi a corrupt motive on the 
 paort of Senators. The facts wblch we piresent tordlay, sihowing 
 how the firemen's sialary bill was amended and then ' hung-up ' in 
 tlie Senate cities ciommlttee, point again' to the same sort of 
 mflitive. And the Senators aromnid wlilota) tliiese scandals hang 
 are the Senatorsi who are resisitlnig almost every measure whiidh 
 Eepublidan sentiment" 'holds to be necessary tO' a proper redemp- 
 tion of Eepnblican pledges and to a proper dibchargie of pnblic 
 duty. One of these Senators 'has a long record of this kind of 
 queer conduct. Until now hie has contrived toi keep himself 
 straight on anything that was held to be party legitelatkmi, but 
 during his long terms of service nearly every pieice of legislatfion 
 in which corporation interests has bieieni displayed and around 
 which scandal has lurked has found in hika a sure supporter. 
 
 " The time has surely come when the Eepublioan party must 
 cast adrift these treachieipous and mercenary repnesentatives. 
 Ini the Democratic party, perhaps, they are not especially con- 
 spicuous, but in onr party; twio or three of them' (if no better 
 miotive can be found for their suppresBlon) are enouight to keep 
 50,000 raepublican voters away from the polls and to cause the 
 party's calamitous defeat. For Repnblicans will mot stand 
 boodlin'g. If thiey ean't put the general principles of their party 
 into effect wlthxiut playing into the hands of unscmpulous mer- 
 cenaries, they will yield tlie field to their adversaries. We 
 respectfully subimlilt to the chief mia,gi'strate of this city that it is 
 his duty to order am investigation by the ooimmissionera of the 
 fire department into the facts we h;ave printed. Thley are pre- 
 sented on infonnatdom lamd belief and with the single end in view 
 of contributing to the cause of good government. We 
 believe that they are true. We believe that the offlcera 
 of the fire department have raised a large sum of 
 m'oney with which to bribe certain Senators to' secure the paissaige 
 of a bill increasing the officem' sajiaxiesi We believe that th!e 
 
99 
 
 agient in this corrupt business ia Louis F. Payni And we liaye 
 printed what we believe to be the tnitihi in the kope that it will 
 lead to a complete nevelaititon of the' conispiraicy and to the 
 destruction of the politieal iinfluence and! the powetP for hann of 
 the politicians who, assuming to represent the good people of this 
 commiomwealth, are a distinctt and oonstant menace to' the public 
 welfare. In this spirit and with this motive we leave the case to 
 the authorities who are most competent to! deal with' it."' 
 
 Q. The lyamie of Eiadhes wasi mentioned in that article on: the 
 strength of statemients made toi you by Borthienhaujsier and 
 Clifford? A. Yes, islr. ~ 
 
 Q. Thiat converaaitibn -wasi the sole basis of your use of the 
 name of Senator Eainesi in this article? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. No other person had giVen you any information in regard to 
 negOiti-iaitions by or in his behalf iin regard to a corruption! fundi? 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. Youi had talien^ paito to haive Bothenhausler reduce tO' 
 writing hi's statemenib for your ofsvn protection as well as informa- 
 tion? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Ha,ve you up toi this time any inf oirmatibn from' any source 
 of any negoitiation by or itoj biehalf of Senator Eiaineisi, except what 
 you got throuigh that conversadlon ? A. No', sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any infoirmaition, direct or indirect, in regard to 
 negotiations by or in behalf of Senator Goggeshall, except what. 
 you got through that interview? A. No^ sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any infornuation from any siouiroe of any pegotiia- 
 tionis by or in behalf of Senator Robertson, except what you got 
 by that interview? A. I think the conversation which was 
 detailed here, and which I had heard before I wrote the article, 
 between' the two firemen, Clifford and Rothenhausler, with Mrs. 
 O'Reilly, constitutes the only informatilon I had in addition to 
 that. 
 
 Q. And just upon the strength) of the statements of these two 
 men you mentiioned th'e name of Senator Robertson? A. No, sir. 
 Q. In oomnectioni with' the corruption fund? A. Anoth'er 
 ground upo'n which I mentibn the namie is that of a; conversation 
 with Leary at the time he went to see Mm and ask him to report 
 the bill. 
 
 Q. You) mlay state what that wias? A. Mr. Leary told me 
 that he had asked Senator Robertson to report- the bill, and 
 Robertsoni told him — 
 
 Q. Report with or without the amendment? A. Without; and 
 Robertson told himi there were oither very much more importamt 
 matters bpfore his committee than the flremen^s bill, and he 
 didn't think he should haye time to attend to' it; withftn. a few 
 
100 
 
 days laftier ttoat oonvepsatlioto 1% was reporte'd witli the amieintd- 
 ment. 
 
 Q. Now, you have stated' the whlale case? A. Now, I have 
 stated the whole case. 
 
 Q. On which you used the Senators' names? A. On which they 
 were used. 
 
 Q. The statement which Rothenhaualer maikes of, the interview 
 with Smith includes the names O'f these three Senatons; in this 
 form has he testified on the witness stand, thatt they were f riemds 
 of thie offlaeiPs' amendment; is that the way in which, as yoni 
 remember it, Roithenhausler testified on. the tpitnleissi stand ? A. I 
 don't remember. 
 
 Q. Did yo!u hear ainythiing additional in the waJy of a state- 
 ment from Rothenhausler, from what he testified here? A. I 
 don't remember what he testified to here. 
 
 Q. We will take it in either fonn, as testified to by Biothen- 
 hausler and Cliff oird, that the three Senators mamjed were either 
 friends of the officers, or friends of the ofScens' aniemdment; you 
 heard the testimony of both of these gentlemen that they 
 never said anything to yon about these gentlemen iln any form 
 or about any negotiiaMons? A. I thinlc so. 
 
 Q. Was it upon the strength of the statement of Bothenhausler 
 that Smith had salid these three Senators were their friends, you 
 •based the whole connection of Senator Eaines and Seniator Cog- 
 geshall with the officers' ataiendment? A. Rothenhausler told 
 me that Smith had told him that the men who hiad' to be taken 
 care of were Bayn and Senaitors Raiiines, Ooggesihall and Rob- 
 ertson. 
 
 Q. At yonir request Mr. Rothenhausler reduced to writing what 
 he informed yoiu? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And you took the precaution of having it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any such statement in that as that? A. I think 
 there is. 
 
 Q. Is there anythimg about taking caire of anybody in that 
 written statement? A. I won't iswea;r to the f6rm of it. 
 
 Q. You heard the testimony of these two men? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. As to what they told you? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And their testimony was that they said these men were 
 friends? A. J don't remember. 
 
 (Stenographer read the testimony.) 
 
 Q. Is thiat testimony of Rothenhausler true? A. There ^^ere 
 several things left out that Rothenhausler told me, and I think 
 he testified to here. 
 
 Q. If that is all that RothenMiusler told youi it is hardly smffi- 
 cient as megards thtese three Senators; if that isi all Rothenhausler 
 
101 
 
 said to you it woiild hardly, be sufflciemt toi tilase a charge of 
 corraption? A. I didn^t make such ai charge. 
 
 Q. Or to predicate the editorial article upon? A. I didn't 
 predicate it wholly upon tliat. 
 
 Q. l>o you mean to say you didn't oharge or imply, that any 
 of these Senatoips had been engaged in corrupt uegotiatioiis? 
 A. I mean precisely what I credit; I wom't give the comstruction 
 of what I mean; the language is there. 
 
 Q. Didn't you chian-ge that? A. Whatever I said is in the paper. 
 
 Q. Do you •refuse to give a direct answer? A. What I siaid in 
 the article was predicated upon infoirmatiou that came to me; I 
 shall not give any eoustructiiou upon what I said. 
 
 Q. Do you shrink from saying what you did imply in these 
 articles, Hmt these three Senators were engaged in cioimiupt 
 negotiations? A- I do not shrink. 
 
 (Counsel reads from the article:) 
 
 "The Press presents to-day certalni facts in coiViiection wiith 
 the histoiry of the firemen's salary bill which poiint unerajngly 
 at corrupt negotiations, if not between Senators anid the repre- 
 sentatives of the Officers' Assoiciation of the Fire Department, at 
 least in behalf of Senators through one of the most notorious 
 political lobbyists." 
 
 Q. Did you mean to imply that those Slenators were knowing 
 to such corrupt negotiations? A. I could not say. 
 
 Q. Didn't you intend to charge that? A. I intended to say 
 what I said, and I shall decline toi say whetheir, I think the 
 Senators knew anything about corrupt negotiations or not. 
 
 Q. Will you decline to say whether by this article you intended 
 to convey to your readers that they did? A. I intended toi con- 
 vey precisely what tbe language of the article isi 
 
 Q. You deoline to say that you iintended to imply that those 
 Senators were engaged in corrupt negotiations and were aware 
 of it? A. I Waye no Imowledge on that point. 
 
 Q. Have you no information ? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You used their names without knowledge or information? 
 A. I used thedir names in the relation I did. 
 
 Q. And when you say that of this $15,000, between |7,000 
 and $10,000 was actually raised, and that the Senators whose 
 names were mentioin,edj among the flnemeni ais the mien who 
 required to be taken care of weire Bobiertson, of Westtdhteistar; 
 Raines, of Ontario; and C'oiggesh'aJl, of Oneida; do yoiu say you 
 had neither knowledge oir iinfoirmiationi that negotiations were 
 penidinig in' behalf of thesie Seniatoirs? A. I say that I had 
 knowledge that pointed to' it 
 
 ■Q. And you stated that knowledge? A. Yes, sir. 
 
102 
 
 Q. And your witness saiys tlhiait iihle knoiwleidg-e comJinmniciaAed 
 by liim to you was what Smltli told hiflu in regard to the two 
 Senators, that they were friends of the officers' association; that 
 is all you stated? A. That is the only sentence in which their 
 names are mentioned. 
 
 Q. Haye youi any other fact in regard to Eatinesi or Coggeshall 
 that yon can mention; you didn't learn that they were oppasied 
 to the firemen? A. No, sir; Raines and Ooiggesh'all told me they 
 were in favor of tlhje bill. 
 
 Q. Coggeshall voted for it? A, I am not informed. 
 
 Q. At the time of the writing you hiad never learned itihlat 
 these Senators acted in an unfriendly way to that bill? A, No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Yon didn't know that either of them haid anything to do 
 with the officers' amendment bieing placed on the bill? A. No; 
 only what I have told you. 
 
 Q. Had you been told that Eaines amd Oogge^all had ajnything 
 to do with the officers' amiendment? A. Sheffield told me that 
 Eaines told him that he wanted the officem' amendment to pass. 
 
 Q. Was that to be separate from the bill? A. I think not; I 
 don't remember about that the time he told me. 
 
 Q. Is it a sufficient fact to base suggestions of corrupt dealings 
 upon that a member of the Legislature is in favor of an increase 
 of pay for the officers of the fire department? A. I should say 
 no one of the facts taken up would be sufficient to make suich a 
 charge. 
 
 Q. Then the statements of Smith iand Eothenhausler would not 
 be sufficient to base a charge upon? A. That is only what 
 Eothienhausler told me; it was not maide under oathi. 
 
 Q. Are you not bound by his statement? A. Not entirely. 
 
 Q. You heard him swear he told you nothing else? A. No, sir, 
 
 ■Q. Didn't you hear him testify in answer to my quiestion^ that 
 he never told you tlmt he ever heard thlat these Senators were 
 engaged in these dealings? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And he told you these three men were friends of the officers* 
 aimendment or their friends? A. 
 
 Q. If Senator Raines and SenatX)iP Coggeshall voted in favor of 
 reporting it would thfe article have appeared on April 18, 1895? 
 A. I think it would; it migfht mot have appeared on thlat day. 
 
 Q. What person who wasi in the officers' association did you 
 apply personally to for any infoirmation before you published that 
 article? A. To none; there were two officers ini my office on one 
 Sunday afternoon and I spoke to thiem about it; they were 
 OffioeTB Freel and GrahamL 
 
103 
 
 Q. At wiiat time were thiey thtere? A. One Simday afternooti 
 about 5Vclock. 
 
 Q. Wh'at did Fveel tell ymn"! A. He told me lie didnft know any- 
 thing aboiut tke raising of mioniey for the bill; tlhat lie deolinied 
 to iavie lanything to do wiith, the bill or tihe radteliig o( money; tihiat 
 lie liad considered the effort of the officers to obtain an increase of 
 salary was placing in jieop'ardy the 2 per cent, tax bill, on wMohl 
 he oame to see me, and, oonsequiently, hie had no sympathy with 
 the effort to obtain' salary legislation, and declined to hare any- 
 thing to do with it. 
 
 Q. He knew nothing abont money being raised? A. Ye®. 
 
 Q. Wihait did the other officers tell yon? ' A. Mr. Grahlami, uipon 
 a prior oooasioin, that he thongihit about |7,000 had been raised. 
 
 Q. What Graham is this? A. He is a member of the offloers' 
 'association. 
 
 Q. What is his full name? A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. Wh'en did he tell you that? A At my office; I don't remem- 
 ber the date, but prior to the cionversation I had with hiim! and 
 Freel; he told me one day, and I must state it in fairness tO' 
 (Iraham, that he didn't know anything about it; that was 
 only his impresision ; that he hlaid no infonnatioir; that he had 
 taJjen Freel 's position and declined to imve anything to do with' 
 the bill. 
 
 Q. Had any person in the ofQcers' assoiciation been further in 
 terviewed by you in regard to the raising of a fund? A. 'No, sir. 
 ^. "V^Tiy haA'en't you talten some other means of ascertaining 
 the truth before you slandered three Senators? A. I shall not 
 answer that question. 
 
 Q. W^hy didn't you inquire intio the matter further before you 
 used tJie names of Senators? A. I didn't think they were good 
 sources of information. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say among 198 officers there were no men 
 wlio would tell the truth? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Don't you suppose they knew whethier the money was 
 raised? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn't you know any way in which to get the truth out of 
 tihiem? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you stop to thinlf whether it was worth while toi find 
 out the facts? A. I think I stopped to consider that. 
 
 Q. Do you know how to get it otherwise than by inquiry? A. 
 I prosecuted my investigations. 
 
 Q. You didn't get anything only the statemients by Smith and 
 Eothenhausler that the three mem were friends; yon had full 
 swing here of the stemogr^apiher's notes long eaiiough to tell 
 
104 
 
 any information that yom had on the subject? A. I told all the in- 
 foimation I had. 
 
 Q. The facts are that after you published this article, you 
 took some steps to get information, did you not; didn't you talk 
 with ShefiBeld about having officers called befbre the fire com- 
 missioners? A. I don't think I did; I won't swear I did not; 
 there was some talk between me and ShefSeld, but whether! I 
 suggested it to him or he to me I don't know. 
 
 Q. Didn't it occur to you to ask Sheffield, who was your inti- 
 mate friend and associate, in the judicial sales bill, to use his 
 means of getting information on the subject before publishing 
 this airticle? A. It did occur to me. 
 
 Q. Did you try to do it; after the article was published you 
 did try to have some? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you try to get iliformation through the fire depairtment? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Previous to this publication you sent for firemen to come 
 and give informatioii? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you get from anybody but Grraham the statement that 
 |7,000 had been raised; you say Graham told you he heard that 
 |7,001) had been raised, but did not Imow? A. Yes; several fire- 
 men; Cliflford told me that he hadi heard that 1,7,000 had been 
 actually raised by the officers' associatdiooi, and I heard it from 
 Mr. French, SamUel Gr. French. 
 
 Q. Is he a fireman? A. No, sir; he lives on Madison avennie. 
 
 Q. Whaf is his business? A. Ooal dealer. • 
 
 Q. What did he tell you? A. He didn't tell me. 
 
 By Seinlator O'Connor: 
 
 Q. Can you give the names of witaesses who toldl you they 
 knew anything? A. My ilnformation a;s to the sum aiSses from 
 three pieces of information; first Graham's suggestion, which he 
 didn't undertake to say he knew, and second the statements of 
 several witnesses; several persons among the firemen who talked 
 with me; that the sum to be raised by the assistant foremen 
 was |30 a piece; the sum to be raised by the foremen f45 a piece; 
 and also from the fact testified tO' that foremen had saidl.they 
 had contributed the money. 
 
 Q. Did any person tell yoti that he had contributed money? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Eainesi: 
 
 Q. Did any person giving this information in regard to raising 
 the money say that the person who told hjjm had; said he had 
 paid? A- Yes, fiir. 
 
105 
 
 Q. Name tKe persoa who told you tliat someone had told him 
 he had paid? A. Two firemen; one was named Zorn and another 
 was named Thompson. 
 
 Q. Thej' told you what? A. That the assistant foreman in 
 theSr engihe cotapany hiad told them and others otn thei 2d of 
 March, or thereaboiuts, that he had that morning put up his $30 
 and they would haTe to do it toio or force all the expensies of th§ 
 salary bill upon the officers. 
 
 Q. "Who is this assistant foreman? A. I thajnk his name is 
 Eeed. 
 
 Q. Of what company? A. t don't remember. 
 
 Q. Have you told all of that that you heard? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When was that told to you? A. That wais told me a month 
 or so ago. 
 
 Q, Do you mean early in March? A. I should say about the 
 middle of March. 
 
 Q. Ymi have stated all the sources of information and meams 
 0{f proiving any of the allegations stated in your article? A. I 
 have stated all the sonrceg of information, that I had pirior' to the 
 piublication of the article, not the means of proof. 
 
 Q. Have yoha at the present time any name you can submit to 
 the Gommittee of amy pei^sota who will give evidence, or whom you 
 believe will give evidence that he has paid any money toward a 
 cotrruptiotai fund? A. If I have I will not give it. 
 
 Q. At the time of the publicatiom of this article, did you have 
 the name of a person whoi had said he would give evidence of 
 having paid any money toward a corruption fund? A. No', sir. 
 
 By Mr. Eoot: 
 
 Q. Has anybody promised to confess? A. No, sir. 
 
 (The stenoigrapher repeated last question of Mr. Rainesi.) 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You have only denials of knowledge on the subject by the 
 persons with whom you talked of the officers? associatiom? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And upon that condition of information you printed the 
 article? A, I did not say. that. 
 
 By Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. At the time of the publication of the article in the Mushing 
 Times about Mr. Downing, for which you were proisecuted, did 
 he hold any office in Queens county? A. He was district attor- 
 ney. 
 
 F. 14 
 
106 
 
 Q. At thfe time you wepe indicted and tried? A. Not at tHe 
 time I was tried. ^ 
 
 Q. How long had he been ooit? A A moatli or two. 
 
 Q. Do you knoiw whether he was removed from office upon the 
 very charges you put in the newspaper? A. Mr. Downing, at 
 the time I was publishing the newspaper, was district attorney 
 in Queens county, within which Flushing wasi situated; he was 
 also tTUstte^e of the village school ait ithe time he was district 
 attorney; I attacked Downing in the newspaper that I con- 
 trolled, editorially, almost every day for two years, alleging 
 against him a great variety of official misconduct, botthi in' the 
 administration of his duties as school trustee and his adminis- 
 tration of the office of district attoirney; Mr. Dovnilng selected 
 one of the articles I had written and prosecuted' me for libel; 
 others of the charges^ especially a charge «f bribery which I 
 brought at the same time I brought this, I brought them all in a 
 bunch, was taken up by a committee of citizens at the head, of 
 
 which was Mr. Charles , and they made application 
 
 to the Governor for D awning's i?emoval; the evidence was heard 
 by Charles S. Fairchilds, who was appointed by Governor Cleve- 
 land to take the testimony, and Downing was convicted and 
 removed from office, and I wish to submit, as part of my state- 
 ment, that he ran for office tiiree times thereafter, and was upon 
 eiaoh occasion defeated; the first time by a majority of 1,000, the 
 second time by a majority of 4,000, and the third by a majority 
 of 8,000; that is the record of the last man who sued me for libel. 
 
 Q. The removal by Governor Cleveland of Downing was in 
 what year? A. Can't say. 
 
 Q. Mr. Cleveland became President in 1884, and was Governor 
 in 1883? A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You were libeling him in the fall of 1886? A. No, sir; ^ 
 was tried in 1886. 
 
 Q. The record shows that the libel was printed on the 7th of 
 July, 1885? A. That may be so. 
 
 (Mr. Raines offered in evidence a certified copy of the record of 
 convictioln of Lemuel E. Quigg upon the charge of libel, which 
 wlas received and marked "Exhibit 4 of April 26, 1895, L. A. 
 W. S."J 
 
 By Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. I don't see anythiinig in that paper about Downing as dis- 
 trict attorney; it relates to him in his office and capacity of trus- 
 tee of public schools? A. It does. 
 
 Q. Did you think, because you had a controversy of long con- 
 tinuation with Downing, that you hM a right to libel him? A. I 
 didn't libel him. 
 
107 
 
 Q. ToiuJ produced what evidence you could tbi tHe jury wliie» 
 the case waa tried? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who was your counisel? A. G-eorge Smith: 
 
 Q. Were you well and ably defended? A. He is a good law- 
 yer. • 
 
 Q. You engaged in brihging what evidence you could against 
 Downing? A. I did, and submitted it. 
 
 Q. The trouble is that justice did not prevail, and that it cost 
 you |500 to get its oouree set right? A. It did. 
 
 Q. Smith was sued by a man named Bandeeni for libel whUe 
 you were acting as editor of that paper? A. I don't know what 
 you are talking about. 
 
 Q. Don't you recollect of being sued while yoiu were editor of 
 the Flushing Times? A. Yes; six times. 
 
 Q. Did you strike the limit when you said six? A. I think it 
 was five times at Flushing. , 
 
 Q. Give the names of the persons? A. I don't remember any 
 other complainant but Downing. 
 
 Q. His action so tnapressed itself upon your mind that you 
 won't forget it? A. I shall noit 
 
 By Mr. Eoot: 
 
 Q. Did any of the others ever come to trial? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You swear .that none of them ever came to trial? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. How many retractioniS have you made? A. None. 
 
 Q. How many did Smith settle with money? A. Who is Smith? 
 
 Q. Is not Smith the proprietoir of the paper? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Who is he? A. I presume he must have been the editor of 
 my e&teemed contemporary at that time. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Some time during this examination, if you 
 do not produce the persons by whom money was paid, you will 
 give the names to the comniij;tee? 
 
 Mr. Eoot. — We will put them on the stand or give the names 
 to the committee. 
 
 Copy of Exhibit 4. 
 COURT OF SESSIONS — QUEENS COUNTY. 
 
 March 8, 1886. 
 Before the Hon. Garret J. Garretson, County Judge; B. Valen 
 tine Clowes and David L. Van Nostrand, Justices of the Sessions. 
 
 THE PEOPLE vs. LEMUEL ELY QUIGa 
 
 Lemuel Ely Quigg, havinig b^en indicted for libel, with hiaviiiig 
 om the 7th day of July imi the year one thoiusaaid eight hundineid 
 
108 
 
 and eilgility-flve, a/t titttes toiwn of FlusiMjQg,, in tihie couiiKty of Quwna, 
 intending to defame onie Bengamiilni W. Downing, a jxiembier of 
 the board of eduoaition of ihe yillaige of Fluahingl in Queiens 
 county, and to bring Tii|m i tnitioi, and tJoi expoise Mm] toi Watred, cion- 
 tempt and ridicuie andi to injure Ihimi the saild Blenjannin W. 
 Downing, wilfully and miaJiciioiusly didi write, print, compose, 
 utter and publislii a loertalin' false, scandalous^ malicioiusi and 
 diefamatoiry libel of and concerning tibe said Benjamin W. Down- 
 ing, containing theireiii', among oitJier things^ tihie false, maJicioiuis, 
 defamatoiry and libelouis words and matters follownnig, that is toi 
 say: "The Timies (meaning tihe Flushing Daily Times, at news- 
 paper published ati Flushimg, Queens oonunty), nievEr ohairged 
 Downing (meaning Benjajmin W. Downing), withi immoral be- 
 havior, we (meaning the said The FlusiMng Daily Times), haVe 
 never even accused him (Gnieaning Benjamin W.. Downing) yet of 
 indecent cioinduiot, though we (meaning the said. The Flushilng 
 Daily Times) do accuse him (meaning said Benjamin W. Downing) 
 now, we (meaning isaid. The Flushing Daily Times) allege that ihie 
 (meaning siaid Benjamin W. Downing) has been guilty of serious 
 improprieties toward the teacheips in the schools (meaning the 
 sdhjoiOils of the village of Flushing) to whom he (meaning Benjamin 
 W. Downing) has addressed language, which though careful, 
 veiled and ambiiguioms, would, of necessity, be conistmed by a 
 lady as insulting." So. far from backing down or correotimg this 
 is much further thanj we (meaning said. The Flushing Daily 
 Times) have ever comie with iriegapd to Downing (meaning said 
 Benjamin W. Downlinig), these odions scandals we (meaning said, 
 The Finishing Daily Timfes) day, amd Downing (meaning of 
 Benjamin W. Dawnilng)i knows it to his cost that thie Times 
 (mieaning The Flushing Daily Tfmies) has always had' the horxid 
 facts back of its allegations against Mm (mieanjimg said Benjamin 
 W. Downing). "In our (mieaning said, The Flushing Daily 
 Times) desire to avoid this disgusting subject, we (meaning the 
 said. The Flushing. Daily Times) made use of laniguagie recently, 
 which relieved him (mieaning said Bemj'amin W. Downing) from 
 the accusation of actual crikniniality." " But if he (meaning said 
 Benjamin W. Downing) forces Staith Ho use this statement as a 
 vindication of his (meaning said Benjamin W. Downing) known 
 impipoprieities, we (meaning said. The Flushing Daily Timies) shall 
 be forced to go vigorously into this whole queatian, and to 
 show by haind, knotty facts what the people ought tbi have 
 discernment enough to see without oibliging a public newspaiper 
 to wade in the muid of it." "That it is because of Downing's 
 (meaning Benjamin W. Downing) address to the teachens (mean- 
 ing the teachers of Flushing public schools), unwelcome amdi 
 
[ 109 
 
 cniel to all who are slelf-respectiiig; that otir best teachers 
 (meammg the teachers of said! Flushing public schools) have 
 been comstrained to leave us (meaning said schools), and that, in 
 scholarship and wioi'k, the schoiols (meaning the Flushing public 
 schools) are to-day thoTOughly 
 
 Which siaid publication, in the said The Flushing Daily, Times, 
 of which f«aid newspaper thje aforesaid I/emuel Ely Quigg, is the 
 editor of and concerming him, the said Benjamini W. Doiwning did 
 expose him, the said Benjamin W. Dowjiing, to hatred, con- 
 tc"inpt and ridicule, and had a tendency toi injure him, the said 
 Benjamin W. Downing. And the said Lemuel Ely Quigg having 
 been duly tried by a jury and found guilty of the offense, he 
 ■ is sientenced to pay a flhe of |500, or in default that he bei 
 confined in the' cOmmOm jail of Said county tor a term of 500 
 days (fine piaid). 
 
 (A co-py.) I. H. SUTPHlEsr, 
 
 I ; ; ,' ' ' ■ ■ ; i ■ ' Olerk. 
 
 Samuel G-. French, being duly .swoirn as a witneis® and exam- 
 ined by Mr. Rooit, testified as follows: 
 
 Q. You are a ireisidenit of this city? A. Tes', sir. 
 
 Q. Where do you reside? A, Noi. 550 Park avenue. 
 
 Q. That is near what street? A. The comeir of SLxty-secOnd-. 
 
 Q. What is your businesisi? A. Goal. dealer. 
 
 Q. Where is your place of business? A. No. 1 Broadway. 
 
 Q. Did you ever kmoTv. a mam named Patrick H. O'Eeilley? 
 A. Yes, isir. 
 
 Q. He was the recording sfecretiait^ of thle association of t!he 
 officers of the fire department? A. I did not know he held 
 aniyi office of that kind. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any business dealings with him? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was he an officer of the fire department? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What office did he hold in the d'eparfanient? A. Assistant 
 foreman. 
 
 Q. What company? A. Fifty-six, engine. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any conversation with him regardilng the 
 payment of a bill to you for coal? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When? A. It was the latter pairt of February or early in 
 MaTch. 
 
 Q. Did he say anything to you in that conversatiom about the 
 payment of mtoney to secure an increaise of the officers' salary? 
 
 By Mr. Eaines: 
 Q. Is this mapi O'Beilly living? A. I btelSefvre not. 
 
110 
 
 Mr. Boot. — TMs is a statement made by one of the persons 
 engaged in riaising this fund at th'e time that the fund was being 
 raised, made to a perfectly reputable and unimpeachable citizen 
 of this city, and communiicated by bim promptly to the officers 
 of the fire department. Of course it is impossible fotr tbis com- 
 mittee to prosecute a successful investigation in sucb a matter 
 as raising a fund for bribery, except by giving evidence of the 
 admission and staitement of tfie persons engaged in raising tbe 
 fund, if any is being raisedi. To say that tbe committee will not 
 seek fotr evidence of that description is to say tbat tbe comanitbee 
 will close the doors entirely; for no one, of course, engaged in 
 such an undertakilng will come forward and testify to it unless 
 confronted by Ms own admissions. That is tbe only way investi- 
 gation is possible, and the committee should not be cut off from 
 evidence of that description by the fact that a man living ajt the 
 time the fund was being raised has since deceased. You Wave 
 before you statements made at tbe time by two of the" officers 
 of this association that they were engaged in raising the money. 
 You have, under oath, proved the statement of Smith, whoi was 
 an officer of thfe flre department amd of tbe Association of Officers 
 of the Fire Department, and you hiave, under oath, proved an 
 actual attempt by Quimn, a member of the officers' aissociation, 
 to get contributions to that fund, amd I now propose to prove 
 by this witness, than whom no citizen of this city stands higher, 
 a statement made at the -time the fund was being raised by one 
 of the men wUa was an officer of the department, am officer of the 
 officers' association, as to just what be did and what he was doing 
 at the time. Surely the coimmittee can not reject that kind of 
 information. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — You do not claim this will be competent 
 evidence on trial? 
 
 Mr. Eoot. — I think it would be competent evidence upon a 
 trial. I think the evidence produced here already of the com- 
 bination among the gfficiers of this department, and the officers 
 of this association laid tbe foundation for the proof of declara- 
 tion and statements made by every one of them as competent 
 evidence upon a trial. 
 
 Senatoir O'Co'nnor.— ^ That might be true of statements against 
 the fire department, but we are investigating here tbe question 
 as to wihether three Senators entered into corrupt negotiatiomis 
 that influenced their action. 
 
 Mr. Eodt. — fe not tbe committtee investigating the questioin, 
 whether ai fund was raised by tbe officers of tbis departmient to 
 carry through legislation) at Albany? 
 
 Senator O'Connor.— Do you think these declarations are 
 pr<>per? 
 
Ill 
 
 Mr. Eoioit. — I haTe no question of it. 
 
 Mr. Eaineis. — I am learning mucli in regard to rnles' of evi- 
 denice. Tlhiat the declarations of a man who has tte bad clianoe 
 to die aire admissible in evidence against those wTio Wave tlie 
 misfortune to sntrvive ham. 
 
 Q. State the conversationi? A. He came in and said that he 
 had promised to pay me some momey he owed me, but conild not, 
 because he had to put up money for thils bill to raise the ofacersf 
 pay. 
 
 Q. What else did he sa;y ; diiid he tell you what he had toi pay ? 
 A. I think he saild |80 ; I would not be positive. 
 
 Q. Did he show you that he had any money in Ms possession? 
 A. He showed me an envelope, saying, " Here it is:" 
 
 Q. Can you give the conversation any more accurately? A. 
 He came in and said hte had to' put up, and that was the realson 
 he could not pay the bill. 
 
 Q. He showed you the envelope and siaid he had toi pay money 
 for the (aS'sessment and could not pay the bill ? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What else did he say toi you about an arrangement for get- 
 ting the salaries raised? A. He said there was a meeting the 
 might before of three men. 
 
 Q. Did he say where? A. At the house of Engine No. 1. 
 
 Q. Did he say whom? A. He eiaid Captain Bums, Loiu. Payn 
 and Senator Ahearn. , 
 
 Q. "WTiat did he tell you about the meeting? A. Simply that 
 they held a meeting at this engine-ihouse. 
 
 ' By Senator O'Connor: 
 
 Q. Were these three mien present? A. That isi what he said'. 
 
 By Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. Did he say fo* what purpose the meeting was? A. To 
 arrange for the passage of the bill. 
 
 Q. Did he say anything to you about another meeting? A. 
 Said there was a meeting the neixt night at the Hotel Metropole. 
 
 Q. Of whom? A. I took it foir granted it was the same men; 
 hie didn't say who. 
 
 Q. Did you communicate these facts to the conamissioners of 
 the fire department? A. I did, toi Mr. ShefBield. 
 
 Q. Do you remember of being at o!ne of the engine-houses and 
 heariu'g a conversation upon the subject of this bill? A. No. 
 
 By Senator Parker: 
 Q. "VMi'at day of the week was* it yoU' saw this man? A. I 
 think on Saturday. 
 
112 
 
 Q. Can you fix the date? A. I can not; it was previous to the 
 passage of thie men'si bill. 
 
 Q. Can you glVe the momth? A. Febwuary or March, 
 
 Q. How long after that diiid this man die? A. I do not know. 
 
 By Mr. Baines: 
 
 Q. What was it he said to you in regard to the offtcersi' and 
 men's pay? A. He said the officers had to pay |80 amdi the 
 men f33. 
 
 Q. And that he was collecting thart; money or only paying' his 
 ow n ? A. Paying Ms own. 
 
 Q. And because of that money he had to pay he could not pay 
 your bill? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he give you any stories before this iln regard' td his 
 coal bills? A. No^ sir. 
 
 Q. Had he given yoTi excuses, from time tot time, in regard to 
 payments? A. I doa''t remembler that he haJd 
 
 Q. This was an excuse for not piaJyibg your bill ? A, Tha* was 
 what he said. 
 
 Q. What was the amount of your bill ? A. Thirty dollars. 
 • Q. How long had it been running? A, Five or six or eight 
 months. 
 
 Q. You were trying to get it? A. He had promised to piay'it. 
 
 Q. Did you ask him a good miany times for alt? A. Not a great 
 many. 
 
 Q. What do you call a great many? A. If I happen«'d to be 
 driving that way I wofuld stop and ask Mim for it. 
 
 Q. Had he ever given you excuses before? A. He said he had 
 sickness and death, and I knew that he had. 
 
 Q. YoTi oan't isay whether it was in February or Majrch? A. I 
 can not. 
 
 Q. You went to see Sheffield about it to find' omit whether it 
 was true or not? A. Yes; I spoke to him aibotit it. 
 
 Q. Your motive was to flmd out whether iJale main's story was 
 trae? A. No. 
 
 Q. Did you go for the purpose of enforcing collection in some 
 way? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. To get information whether such a fund was being raised? 
 A. Yes. " 
 
 Q. Not to find] out whether the story was true that the man 
 told you? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the date of O'Beilley's death? A. I don't Icnow. 
 
 Q. Give it as near as yoiu can, tell it? A. I don't know; I never 
 saw him afterwaJrd. 
 
113 
 
 By Senator O'Connor: 
 
 Q. "WTien did you say the com'^ersatiion took place? A. Feb- 
 ruary or MaTiCli of the present year before the passage of tlie 
 men's bill. 
 
 Q. How soon after that did yon see Sheffield? A. I should say 
 two or three days; I can not say exactly. 
 
 Q. Have you seen Quisg- since? A. I have not seen Quigg 
 since until to^day. 
 
 By Senator Mulliin: 
 
 Q. Whiait induced you tO' go to- Sheffield, and ask him about 
 that fund? A. As Sheffield was a new commissioner and had 
 been to Albany pushing the bill I thought it was fight that he 
 should. know it. < 
 
 Q. How long after your talk with the officer was it that you 
 saM' Sheffield? A. Two or thxee days. 
 
 Q. You simply went to inform him of the fact? A. Yes; he 
 rather dowbted it at first. 
 
 By Mr. Baines: 
 
 Q. How long Avas this after Sheffield was appointed? A. T 
 think the day he was appointed. 
 
 Q. That you went to see Mm ? A. I think so. 
 
 Q. Did Sheffield tell you he never heard of any mouey beiing 
 raised? A. I can't say lie did or did not. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you he was in charge of the bill and didn't 
 believe there Vvas anything in it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. .And if any was being raised he did not Ivuow anything 
 about it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Hugh Bonner, being s-\\orn as a witness and exa.mined by Mr. 
 Root, testified as follows: 
 
 Q. You are chief of the fire department? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long have you occupied that position? A. Nearly six 
 years. 
 
 Q. You were, at one time, a member of the Association of 
 Otficers of the Fire Department? A. I was. 
 
 Q. And a member of the boand of directors? A. I m;iy have 
 been, but not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. I notice your name is printed as suchl? A, I never read th" 
 lules. • , 
 
 Q. Whien did you cease to be a member of that as^'ociation ? A. 
 After these salary billsi were presented in the Senate. 
 
 Q. After the men's bill was presented, or after the officer-s'' 
 amendment was? A. The officersi' amendment beiajg attached to 
 the firemen^s salary bill. 
 F. 15 
 
114 
 
 Senatoir O'CJommor.— Has not thie local authorities of their own 
 power, of their own motijoin to' increase the pay of <-he mtc. 
 
 Mr. Root.— Tlhey haTe; it is permissive. They have no right 
 U) increase the men?s pay, but they have the right, to increase 
 tilt' officers' pay. 
 
 Q. You ispoke of having ceased toi be a member of the aseoicia- 
 tion of officers after the presentation of the amendment to in- 
 crease the officers' salaries? A. Yes, air. 
 
 Q. Did youi resign? A. I did. 
 
 Q. Was the effort toi get the officers' salaries increased the 
 cause of your resigning? A It wsls. 
 
 ^<^ Did yoiu state that as a reason of your resignation? A. No; 
 1 don't kn!oiw as I did. 
 
 Q. Did yoiu express yomirsielf before you resigned as bein;; 
 opposed to the effort 0(6 getting the salaries increased? A. T 
 did. 
 
 Q.. To whom? A. In a genieral way to all the officers that T 
 had any conversation with. 
 
 Q. What did you say on that subject? A. I said I did not think 
 it was piriolpen at this time for the officens to look for an increase 
 of pay; that I thought it am unfairness to the men; thiait is about 
 the substance of it. 
 
 Q. You thought the officers' amendment would kill the men'.s 
 bill? A. I thought it would be unfair. 
 
 Q. Was the attempt to' get the officers^ salaries raised the 
 subject of general diseusisioin in the department? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was it the subject of diseussion between you and the other 
 officers? A. I never directly conversed with any officer but 
 Oaptatn Burns, the president of the association; I informed him 
 after I saw the articles ini the papers and the accusations^ made 
 by some papers, that if continued, I had the impresision that the 
 associartion was advoioating this salary increase; Mr. Burns de- 
 nied it, and I infolrmed him if I found out the association had 
 any hand in it I should certainly resign from the association; 
 shortly afterward a similar article appeared iu the 7>;ipers, iUid 
 I took it for granted it was thte same thing and I resigned from 
 the organiizatibn. 
 
 Q. Were you satisfied that they had had a liand ini it? 
 
 (Mr. Raines objeclied. Objection sustained.) 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — The officer may state any fact he knows 
 showing an effort madp bythe officer or any of the officers. 
 
 A. I know of none exr-ppt what T saw in the papers; Captainj 
 Bums denied the impressioins I had that there was anything 
 in it, "that there was auy fund raised and said the offioersi were ' 
 not advooating the bill for an increase of salary. 
 
; ... ■ , 115 
 
 Q. When was tMs? A. That was after t!he article appeared in. 
 the papers, directly after; I could not fix iihe date; the articte 
 I sa\\- several times and this was probably after the amendment 
 wa.s offered, or before it, I don't know wMcli. 
 
 Q. You don't refer to the article tliat led to tbis investigation? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. It has been stated thajt your resignation was presented at 
 a meeting of the aissociation oni tihe 4tli of March; does that 
 correspond with your recollections? A. I giiess it was about 
 that time. 
 
 Q. It was before the first Monday of March that you had this 
 interview with Burns? A. Yes,sir. 
 
 Q. Could you tell ujs how long before? A. Possibly a week 
 or it might be two. 
 
 Q. A week or two before the first Monday of March? A. Yes', 
 sir. 
 
 Q. And you had already seen in some newspapersi a statement 
 that the officers were laaking an effort to get their salaries 
 raisied? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long a conversation' did you have with Buims about 
 it? A. It didn't lasit two minuteis. 
 
 Q. Did you talk with any other officer on that suibject befoifie 
 you resigned? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You stated that Buams denied that the officers were raising 
 any fund? A. He did. 
 
 Q. Did you charge him with tbat? A. I charged Mm with 
 thie article I saw in the paper. 
 
 Q. Do you think you comld recollect what paper it; was? A. 
 I saw it in the Herald upon twoi olecasions, the Albany corre- 
 spondent of the New York Herald. 
 
 Q. ¥i%at was the siihstance of the article? A. That the fire- 
 ineu were about to raise a fund for the piirpoise of forcing their 
 bill through the Legislature. 
 
 Q. Bill to raise the officers' salaries? A. No; firemen's sal- 
 aries; that was the first article, and then the second article, I 
 thiuk, said officers: 
 
 Q. That led you to talk with Bums? A. Ye^ sir. 
 
 By Senator Mullin: 
 
 Q. Was the officers' amendment tacked om the men's bill? 
 A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. You saw both of tlioise articles before the amendment w.w 
 put om? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You then talked with Burns? A. Yes, sir. 
 
116 
 
 Q. You Aarged Mm wifh what you had men m the papers 
 about ttiie officers raising mioniey? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. He denied it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Gire me, as nearly as you oati, the time and place of that 
 inteirview with Bums, in which hie denied the raising of money? 
 A, A week or two previous to the day of my resignatioui from 
 the offlcetrsi' asisociatiom. 
 
 Q. That woMld bring it some time about the middle of Febru- 
 ary? A. I don't know when I did resign.; I didn't take any 
 particulair notice about this comviersation at headquarters. 
 
 Q. How soon, after that conversatioin with Burns, did you 
 resign? A. I think fully a week. 
 
 Q. Was tbat, conversation with! Burmsi angry and excited ? A. 
 No, sir; general talk. 
 
 Q. Did you find fault with him? A. No; I merely reminded 
 hiim I should ceasei to be a memiben if thfere was any more in 
 the papers about raising the salaries. 
 
 Q. You told him, if that went on, you, should resign? A. (I 
 told him, from' what I siaw in the papers, I thought the a®so^ 
 oiation was taking ,some actioh with reference to the increase 
 of sialarSesi 
 
 Q. And that you would resign; if it went on? A. If T heand 
 any more, I would resign from the organization. 
 
 Q. Did yoiu talk with any other officer on the subject? A. J. 
 don't remember any. 
 
 Q. Did you make any inquiries from any other officer on the 
 subject of raisihg a fund? A; No., sir. 
 
 Q. Or about an effoirt to get the salaries raised? A. None 
 whatever. 
 
 1 
 
 Q. Captain Bums has testified to|-day that prior to the 18th' of 
 April, when this Pressi lartiole was published, he had never 
 heard any isuggestion o.b rumor that money Wias to be raised 
 oir wais beitng raised to get the ^officers' salaries increased; is 
 t^at true? A. T don't know. 
 
 Q. He heard it from you? A. I gave Mm what I saw in the 
 papers, that the officers wene talking action, with a view of 
 having their salaries increased. 
 
 Q. Did you say anything about a fund? A. T don't know thai: 
 I said anything about a fund; the article said that; I don't know 
 that I said anything to" Bums about a fund or raising mioney; 
 I said Vaking action in it. 
 
 Q. Yon testified that he denied raising a fund? A. He denied 
 taking any action or raising a fund, T think. 
 
 Q. Have you given eyerythino- that Bums said at, that inter- 
 view? A. Yes; it didn't last a minute, 
 
117 
 
 Q. l>irt you send foii' him? A. No, sir; he was there on official 
 business; we met accidentally and this question came up. 
 
 Q. Did you call his attention to the newspaper article? A. I 
 don't knoiw as I did. 
 
 Q. Did you tell him atoout it? A. I don't know that I called 
 his attention at all. 
 
 Q. What did you give him as the basis of youT chiairge? A. 1 
 told him that I was under the impression, from what I read, 
 that they were taking action. 
 
 Q. The article you saw contained a statement that the officers 
 were raising a. fund to get their sialaries increased? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Tell the committee whether or not yoiu referred to that 
 statement in charging Bums with whatever you did charge hiim? 
 A. I didn't state to htm anything I saw in the paper aboiut a 
 fund being raised; I said I thought tie associatioh^was taking 
 action : 
 
 By Senator O'Connor: 
 
 Q. You objected to the officers interfering with the men get- 
 ting an increase of salary? A. T thought it unfair to the men. 
 
 Q. J>id yon mention this to Burns? A. T saw the artide, but 
 I don't tMnk I mentioned it to Bums; I didn't think there was 
 anything in it at the time, and paid little attention to it and 
 can't state. 
 
 Q. T\Tiat was the amount stated? A. It was so large I knew 
 it was impossible and far beyond the power of our men to raise. 
 
 By Mr. Eaanes: 
 
 Q. Do you recollect Bonner requesting Bums to see Payn and 
 have him search the fire depairtment in reference to the 2 per 
 cent tax matter? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You did, you say? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there any question of compensation in any way to 
 I'ayn? A. None whatever. 
 
 Q. And aiffcer he assisted in the defeat of that bill you had a 
 conversation with Payn after the Legislature adjourned? A. f 
 told Payn I thought it would be right to render a bill of expenses 
 at Albany and he refused to do it; we felt he had rendered some 
 aid, but he declined to put in a bill of expenses. 
 
 Adolph Zom, being duly sworn as a witness and exauiined by 
 Mr. Root, testified as follows: 
 
 Q. Are you a fireman? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Of what company? A. Eingine Company 58. 
 
118 
 
 Q. T^Tiere is your residence? A. No. 658 East Fiftieth street. 
 
 Q. Where is No. 58 engine-house? A. No. 31 E&st Fifteenth 
 streiet. 
 
 Q. Who aire the officers? A. Burke is foireman and assistant 
 foreman is Samuel Eeed. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation with Assistant Forenoian 
 Eeed about payments of money to secure an increase of thf; 
 officers' salaries? A. On the 2d of IMairich he said he put up |30 
 for the increaise of the officers' sailaries, amd he said it vpould be 
 a, fair thing that we should put up our money. 
 
 Q. The 2d of March tliis year? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. "V^Hiere was it, and who was present? A. It was pay-day: 
 he had come back from the fire department headquarters with 
 checks; Eeed came with checks toi pay the men with, and we 
 were there; and he said, "Well, I am going to put up $30 for thr^ 
 increase of the officers' salaries and it will be a fair thing if the 
 men would put up theiT share ; " Thompson was there and Fire- 
 man Kelley. 
 
 Q. What did the men say? A. They took it in good pairt and 
 a couple of days afterward he mentioned it agait. 
 
 Q. Who did? A. Reed; he said, "Are you fellows going to put 
 up?" and we said, "No; we are not going to put up ooie oent" 
 
 Q. This was on pay-day, the 2d of March? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he say anything about it being difficult for him to put 
 up then? A. He said it was a short month, and his daughtev 
 was about to get married, and it was pretty hard on him. 
 
 Q. Did he say anything about whether Foreman' Burke had put 
 up; was there anything more that you remember? A. He said 
 he put up his share, and the foreman was going to put up Ms; 
 he said |45 the foreman put up; that is about all I know about 
 that. 
 
 Q. How much did he want the men to put up? A. The way 
 w;e undeirstooid it, we were to put uip $30 and the foi-eman $45. 
 
 Q. Hoiw much dad yom say the firemen were to put up? A. 
 I d«m't know how muchi he wanted) us to put up; we said we 
 would mot put up one cent. 
 
 By Mr. Eaines: 
 
 Q. At tlhis time, was he joking and laughSmg? A. He was 
 joking; I dbn't know whethler 'W was lau'ghSng. 
 
 Q. Can you tell wheni he was joking? A. There is no one 
 can tell. 
 
 Q. Wais he under the influence of liquor? A. I oan't say. 
 
 Q. Can vfliu say whether, at the time, he was engaged in 
 crtack'ing a joke? A. I could noit say. 
 
119 
 
 Senator O'Conn&r. — Did lie impress you aa making a bona 
 tide efloi'll to get you to cointribute money? 
 Tliie Witness. — I believed it. 
 
 By Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. Did bq ask yon to give him tUie money? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he tell wlio he gave the money to? A. He said thie 
 association of firemen hiadi to put up th.eir istuff- now an^ join, 
 with the officers. 
 
 Q. Diii he say that he had put hiis up? A. He said that he 
 was going to put up his ishane and the foreman wouid put up 
 his shaipe, and he thought, the firemen oughit to put up theirs; 
 he said he was going to put it up thte neKt day. 
 
 Q. Yoiui just told him yolui' wene not going to put up? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Whietheir he was talking with you seriously or joking you 
 dion/t knofw? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. He talked as though it was ail straight? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Whether he was talkitig seriouisly, or was trying to see 
 what you wonld say, you don't kmotw? A. I dom't know what 
 he thoughjt 
 
 Q. Is he full of jokes? A. Omoe in awhile j we carry on jokes 
 between ail hands once in awhile. 
 
 Q. At the second occasion you tol'd him thait you were not going 
 to put upi? A. I told him that same day. 
 
 Q. Was anything said afterward? A. It was menitioned two 
 OP threle tiknes afterward. 
 
 Q. To whom did yon repeat the conversatioin first? A. To 
 Piremam Hauck. 
 
 Q. Whietn did you' tell him? A. About the middle of Manoh. 
 
 Q. To whiom else did you tell it? A. To Mr. Quigg. 
 
 Q. When did yon tell him? A. Thfe middle of March. 
 
 Q. Where did you tell him? A. In his oflfice, 
 
 Q. Who took you there? A. I was sent for. 
 
 Q. Who sent for you? A. FTmai the department headquarters. 
 
 Q. Who signed the notice foiri you to go there? A. I could 
 not say; the foreman ordered me to repiort to headquarters 
 forthwith, and there I was told to goi to Quigg's. 
 
 Q. Who told you? A. Secretary Jesson. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you by whose orders? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You went and told Mr. Quigg what you told us? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. Did you tell hiitn just as yotu told us? A. The same tMng. 
 
 Q. Why didn't youi tell Sheffield this? , A. I didin't see him. 
 
 Q. Any rules that require you to tell anybody? A. No, sir. 
 
By Mr. EWot: 
 
 Q. To what battalion da you belong? A. No. 11. 
 
 Q. Whid is tlhe collector? A. I -dioln't know,; Foremiam Gooder- 
 son was iSeen there three timesi; he) never 'had been, seem there 
 before from the time the company oirganized until th-en. 
 
 Q. When was he' seen 'there? A. Eight after th,at pay-day. 
 
 Q. Did he come the day after tihis first oonversation with. 
 Reed? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So Bleed told you hie was going to put up Ms $30 and the 
 foreman hi® $45 the next day, anid the next day GoodeTson 
 came? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. And that was the first time yon ever saw him there? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Has he ever been tihere since? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Youi say he came th^tiee times? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. On what dates? A. I doln^t know. 
 
 f^ The second and third times very soon after iMm first time? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The next pay-day? A. Yesi, isir. 
 
 Jeremiah Kelley, being duJy sworn as a witness and examined 
 by Mr. Root, testified as follows: 
 
 Q. You are a flremani? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Connected with wtat engine company? A. No. 58. 
 
 Q. The siaihe company as the last witnessi? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. Wio are the officers? A. Foreman Burke and Assistant 
 Foreman Reed 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear Assistant Foreman Reed say anything 
 about putting up money to get the officers' salaries raised? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Tell what you heard him say? A. I heard him say on the 
 day of the 2d of Mapoh that h'e put up $30 fbr the raise of salariies, 
 and it was pretty hard for him because it was a short momtfli 
 and he had iXi make a present to his daughter whoi was going 
 to get married. 
 
 Q. Tell the conversation? A. That is about all ; he said it half 
 a dozen times through the day; T walked away ai half dozen 
 times myself not to listen to him; I didn't thlibk it would amount 
 to this or I would have paid more attention. 
 
 Q. Did you say anything in answer? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. Any of the men? A. Not that I know of. 
 
 Q. Did you hlear him talk abiout it more th;an omee? A. Yes; 
 half a dozens tilmes, but I didn't pay amy attention to it. 
 
121' 
 
 Q. Can you tell us amything more? A. No, sir; I! baive told you 
 just as stPaight as I oould. 
 
 Q. Did he say anything about the men paittinig up? A. Not to 
 my knowledge while I was there. 
 
 Q. Did you hear Mka say anything about it after tliait day? A. 
 No, sir; he was blowing about it twoi or three days off and on; I 
 didn't pay any attention to it; I used to go through the house 
 so as not to hear it. 
 
 By Mr. E-aines: 
 
 Q. Is Beeid a fellow giving to joking? A. No; I don't think so. 
 
 Q. You say he repeated this five or six times? A. Two or 
 three times. 
 
 Q. Was he full? A. I would not want to swear he was sober. 
 
 Q. Grive us your best judlgment? A. I think he had a drink or 
 two in. 
 
 Q. Wais he a little hilaJriotuis? A. Had a couple in; that is 
 sure; just about enough to show, but he meant what Tie said all 
 the same. 
 
 Q. He said it several times aver? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he try to talk with' you aibout it? A. He diidn^t try to 
 have any conversa#on with me personally. 
 
 Q. Did he say he was going to put up the money? A. He said 
 he had put it up and was going to put up more. 
 
 Q. Didn't he tell you hie was gofinig to put it up the next diay? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he say how much he put mp? A. He said he put up |30. 
 
 Q. Were you there at the same time with Officer Zom? A. I 
 am not sure. 
 
 Q. Did he say to whom he gave the money? A. No, sir; he 
 did not. 
 
 Q. Did he say anything aboiuit your putting up? A. No, siir. 
 
 Q..I)id he say what this |30 was for? A. He said to increase 
 the oflicei's' salaries. 
 
 Q. How did he put that? A. I have repeated it. 
 
 Q. I want exactly the way in which he told iit? A. He said 
 he was after putting up S30; that it was hard for him to do it 
 because it was a shiott month anid his daughter was going to get 
 married, and he had to make a present. 
 
 Q. Was it the present thai was going to cost .|30? A. 1 do 
 not think so. 
 
 Q. Do you think he was sober enough to know what he was 
 saying? A. Yes, siir. 
 
 Q. Are you and Eieed good friends? A. Yes, sir; I am only a 
 very short time with him. 
 F. 16 
 
122 
 
 Q. How long liave you been there? A. Siace the 24th of 
 Janimry. 
 
 Q. Is there some ill-feeling between you amd the officers? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Has there been any between you and Reed? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. All perfectly gottd friends? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Never bleen any words about it? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. When did you see Keed? A. This morning he told me lo 
 oome down here; he had orders to send me here. 
 
 Q. Did you tell Tiinn whiat for? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yoiu ever tell this story to anybody before yoiu came 
 here? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you been to Quigg's office? A. Yes; yesterday. 
 
 Q. Not before? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. That is the first time you told it anywhere? A. That is all. 
 
 Q. Who sent you there yesterday? A. I received an order 
 from headquarters. 
 
 Q. Whose name was siigned to the oirder? A. I could not saly. 
 
 Q. A written onder? A. No; by telephone. 
 
 Q. Did you talk through the teliepihlone younself ? A. No, siir. 
 
 Q. Who took the message off tbie 'phone? A. It was Foreman 
 Burke. 
 
 Q. You went down and told juist what yoiu talid here? A'. 
 Exajody. 
 
 Q. What office did ,yotu tell Quigg in yesterday? A. No. 32 
 Nassau street; in his own office; it was not Mr. Quigg; it was' 
 Mr. Root'si office. 
 
 Q. Who were there at the time? A. This gentleman here 
 a.nd Mr. Quigg and half a doaen or dozen forranen. 
 
 Q. Was Commisisioner Sheffield there? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And' Ofther oommiBsiolners? A. No^ sir. 
 
 Mark Ryan, being duly swoirn aisi a witness and examined 
 by Mr. Boot, tes'fcifled asi lollowsi: 
 
 Q. You are a flremaia im this city? A. Yes, sir; an engineer. 
 
 Q. Of what company? A. Forty-one. 
 
 Q. Whlat baittalion is that im? A. Thirteemtii. 
 
 Q. How long have, youi been im) tihat company? A. Since thie 
 2d day of lasit July. 
 
 Q. Howl long in the depiartment? A. Tvrenty years. 
 
 Q. Who are the officers of 41 Engine Company? A. Oaiptain 
 Kittiisiom and Lieutenaint IQoks. 
 
 Q. You know Captailu Landersi, of 42? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do yoiu know Olairk, of 60? A. Yesw 
 
123 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear convensatioiiis between tihiem on the 
 silbject of putting up rnkmey to secure am inoreaise 'of tiie officers' 
 saila/rites? A. Y^es, mr; I heard a oanyersation between them in 
 front otf my quiairters, on March 1st of this yeair. 
 
 Q. State whiat that oouiversatioin was? A. Clark told Landers 
 that the bill would be all rigihti, but that thiey woiulld have tq 
 put up, anidi Landers siaUd he was perfectly willing toi put up, 
 but wanted to know what about the momey, if the bill didn't 
 pass, and Clark told him they wotuld get it back. 
 
 Q. Did Clark tell Landers what bill he wais, talking about? 
 A. Wo, sir. 
 
 Q. Give the comvensation? A. That was the conversationi; 
 they were staniding outside the door. 
 
 Q. "V^%eKe were yo|u? A. I was inside. 
 
 Q. Wherfe did they co^me from? A. I could not say; I was 
 inside when they came there; Clark had been there relieving 
 the aissistant foireman for dinner; but vi^hen Landers came along 
 I could not isay; that is the conversation I heard; Clark said 
 the bill wouild be all right, but we will have toi put up, and 
 Landers said, "I am willing to put up, but suppoBtng the bill 
 dom/t pass," aajid Clapk siaid, "You will get, your money back;" 
 and 1 accused Clark of it, being in relation to thte salary bill, 
 and I tol'dl hakn it wais a mean thing for them^ to jump on our 
 bill anid try to swamp it with the officers^ amendment, and hie 
 said that would be all right. 
 
 Q. Whjat else did he say? A. We had quite a he'ated argu- 
 ment; I don't remember! all I did say. 
 
 Q. Give us what you rem.ember? A. I told him what I had 
 heard him siay, but didn't say to Mm that I had heard hira say 
 it; and he asked who I heard say it, and I said you and he 
 denied saying it. 
 
 By Senator O'Connor: 
 
 Q. Did he deny that he had ju'st said what you testified h|e 
 said? A. Yes, sir; 10 minutes afterward; as soon as he came 
 inside, close up to me. 
 
 Q. You happened to be s<tanding there, and whien he came in 
 you told him? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That it was mean in the afflcers to make the amienldment? 
 A. Yes, isir. 
 
 Q. When you charged him vrith it he denied making Hie state:- 
 ment? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Wh'en you charged him with it, what did he say? A. He 
 denied saying anything toj Landers. 
 
124 
 
 Q. Whien you told Olark yoiui tlioiuglit it a mean thdmg to swamp 
 yaar bill, whiat did he siay? A. He said that wonxld! be all right. 
 
 Q. He dlidn't deny IMait tOiey wene trying to ,8w.amp yorar Mil 
 at all? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yoto bear amy moire of the conTersaition ? A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. He didn't deny tiie existeaice of Eoot in thlat talk? A. jl 
 dlidn't.know Eoot at that time. 
 
 Q. Ho:w far were you trmn. this man? A. Jusit the thickness 
 of the doioir; that i® two or three imchleei; I wais imside thie dour, 
 nolt ofver 18 inches frottn it 
 
 Q. You were inside tihe building? A. Yela, sir. 
 
 Q. Was the door shlut between you? A. Yes; but it don't 
 close Tiery tilght. 
 
 Q. How thick is that door? A. Two inches. 
 
 Q. A good old fire door? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You stood there listening? A. No, sir; I was standing there 
 before they came; I was talking toi a maai cleaning a harness. 
 
 Q. Is there al pane of glass in that door? A. Yes; a little 
 abOTe my shoulders. 
 
 Q. Through that doior you heard what you did hear? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. IHd you see the men there? ' A No, sir; when I went out- 
 side they stood at the gutter-plank. 
 
 Q. Were you outside after that talk or before? A. After they 
 talked. • i 
 
 Q. Yon hadn't seen thiem while talking? A No, sir. 
 
 Q. Had you seen them before talking? A. No, sir; I had seen 
 Clark. 
 
 Q. You don't know when Landers came? A. NoOiy sieeilng Mm. 
 
 Q. You don't know who it was talking? A. Only by their 
 voices; you hear him once and you won't make any mistake. 
 
 Q. Do yon know it was Landers? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And Olark? A. Yesj sir. 
 
 Q. Any other men out there? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How far away from the, door were tlicy when yoiu got out 
 there? A Twelve feet. 
 
 Q. Did yoiu hear any more after you; got outside? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you angry when, you talked with Clark? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there goad, feieiing between the men and officers? A We 
 were mad at that time; I was madl personally, being ai member 
 of the members' argamizatioin, to think thley weire goilng to swamp 
 our bill. 
 
 Q. You didni't oare if they g'ot their bill through? A. No, sir. 
 
125 
 
 Q. Yon have no feeling now in regard to this matter? A. Ifo, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. When did you first tell this story? A. I told it thiat after- 
 noon at a meeting of our organization. 
 
 Q. When did you tell it after that? A. Ahont a week aftpr 
 that. 
 
 Q. Where did you tell it? A. To Mr. Quigg in his office. 
 
 Q. About the milddle of March? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yoU' tell it then just as you have told it here? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Was a written stateoment made at the time? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you write it out? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You didn't hear ainy Seuaitor's name mentioned in con- 
 iieciion with that oouversatiou ? A. ISToi, sir; I did not. 
 
 By Mr. Hoot: 
 
 (J. You started to say somethiuig which you didn't fluish abiout 
 wliRt shut off the conversation? A. An elevated train went by 
 and la trolley car, and that sihut ofl! the oonversatiou, and I didn't 
 hear any more; and when I didn't hear any more I opened the 
 door to see if they were there still, and they were out at the 
 gutter-plank. 
 
 Q. How long aftenvard dild Olark come in? A. Five or ten 
 minutes, perhaps. 
 
 Q. W^ere thie two men you saw standing at the gutter-plank the 
 same men whose voices you heard in this conversation? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You say you gave an account of this occurrence that after- 
 noon at a meeting of your organization? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there, at this time, a general feeling of excitement 
 throughout the department on this subject? A. Yes, sir; among 
 the men. 
 
 Q. A gooid deal of feelimg abtout it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. All through the department? A. The men were all mad to 
 think the bill went so far without meeting any obstacles, and 
 then this officers' amendment being tacked on to it. 
 
 Q. You say this was the 1st of March? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. Have you been present at any meeting of the members of 
 your body since- the publicaition of this article on the 18th of 
 Ajiril? A. ISTo, sir; we haive had no meteting since then. 
 
 Q. There has been no gathering of firemen where it has been 
 talked over what should be done in regard to giving testimony? 
 A. Not mine. 
 
126 
 
 Q. Yourself and others? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. ViTiere was that? A. At Quigg's residence. 
 
 Q. When was ilt? A. Ttie 4th of April, this pi-esent month. 
 
 Q. You were down there at that time to make a statement? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You were down there at that time for what purpose? A. 1 
 don't know. 
 
 Q. ^Vhat was the business in hand? A. It was about soone 
 book arrangement. 
 
 Q. Sin'ce this article wias prablished on the 18tjh of April, have 
 you been present when, thiisi article was talked over among tlie 
 firemen? A. No, sir. 
 
 Henry Hauck, being duly swoimi as a witness and examined 
 by Mr. Eoioit, testified a® foillowis: 
 
 Q. You are a flneman of Rngine No. 25? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You live at 1684 Second avenue? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Tell the committee what you know abouit a book being 
 found in Engine 25's h'eadquaiFter's? A. I happened to be in 
 Engine 25 the night of the 3d, and I made it my busrnes.s to go 
 dOwm agiaim the next moiming, and then I met Fireman Comvoy, 
 wfhoi' told me he had found a. book with thei names of all the 
 officers of that battalion. ■ 
 
 Bj' Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. Where is the book? A. I do not know; Convoy told me he 
 had seen tMs bolok. 
 
 Q. Is lie a fir-eman and an officer? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. He is tihe one who told you he saw the book? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 AdjoiivnAd to Saiturday morning, at 10 o'clock a. m. 
 
 Saturday, morning, April 27, 1895. 
 Tlic committee reconvened pursuant to adjournment 
 Present. — Senatoir O'Connor, chairmian; and Senaitors Pound, 
 Ahilliu, Parker and Cantor. 
 
 Mrs. Fannie O'Eeilley, being swoim: as a witnesis and examined 
 by Mr. Eaimes, testified ae follows: 
 
 Q. Where is your hlome? A. Not 188 Columbus avenue, 
 Q. You are the wildow Of Patriclc O'Reilley? A. Yes, sir. 
 Q. In his lifetime, wtoat was hie! business? ^\, Firemian- 
 aBsLsftanit foreman of Engine No. 56. 
 
127 
 
 Q. Did ik) hldd some office in tlie officens' orgianizatiom ? A. 
 
 Yes; secretJary. 
 
 Q. What was tlie date of his death? A. The 6th of March, 
 I S95 ; he died at midnight. 
 
 Q. Diirinig Ms life, did he at any time infonn yon of collections 
 or pa.yments of assesismentsi he made for thiei asisocialtiom? A. 
 Yes; he paid $1 a month. 
 
 Q. At what time did he oommence toi make that payment? 
 A. In the summer; ini August, as far as I can remember. 
 
 Q. He paid $1 a, month? A. Yes', sir. ^ 
 
 Q. Did you at any time learn from Mm that he paid any 
 additional sum? A. No, sir; I can' assure you he did not. 
 
 Q. Was there' at any time any fund or any sum whatever 
 in! his possession that you know of? A. IS"©, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see any list wMch he had in Ms possession, con- 
 taining a memoriandum of assessments? A. No, siP; noffle at all. 
 
 Q. On tlh'e day following his death, were you called upotn 
 by Fireman Olifford? A. I did not know the gentlieman; he 
 said he was not connected with the fire departmiemt. 
 
 Q. Did you know the name of the peirison -fchatt called? A. I 
 did not, but I would know the gentleman if I saw him. 
 
 (Mvpman Clifford was asked to come forward.) 
 
 Q. . Is this the gentleman;? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Was he alone or with anottiher' person? A. There was 
 a,iTother person with; him. 
 
 Q. You may detail the conversation just as it ooounredi from 
 beginning to end between this genrtflem-aii and yourself? A. 
 I will tell it as far as possible; they called, they said, as friends 
 of mine, ais they understood thiere was going to be a claim 
 put in against me foir money that Mr. (yEeilley collected; jT 
 didn't understand them; I siaild that he left no money; that he 
 had no money in the bank; he said tMs money was collected 
 for an asisoeiation, and I said he 'didn't belong to any lassocia- 
 fjna outside of the firemen's association; they said that wais 
 what they had reference to; I asked if they belonged to the 
 fire depaintment, and they saiidi they did not; that they came ais 
 friends of mine; I said, "Are you Mr. Bums," amd they said, 
 "No;" they said they came to loiok after my in/terests and if I 
 had money to keep it, and I said' I would not keep any mioney. 
 as it didn't belong to me, ajnd tihiat Mr. O'Eeilley ididn't have 
 any money in the bank, and no money only what I found in his 
 poicket. 
 
 Q. Was anythintr said on the subject of papers? A. Yes, sir: 
 they asked me if I received any papers, and I "said yes, a waste- 
 basket full ; and then they asked if I could show them, and I said 
 
128 
 
 yes; and they mM T need not mitad, as I sfcartedi for them, and 
 then I said to them what is there about this matter; and then 
 they. said you can't believe all the stories yom hear; the whole 
 thing is a mystery to me and I dion't understand it yet; that is 
 about aJl the conversation I had with them. 
 
 Q. Did you tell these gentlemen that you had a, list of the 
 niumes of persons who were going to contribute the money? A. 
 jSTo, sir ; they asked me whajt wais on the meraoiriandum and papers ; 
 .md I said the names of- firemen; and after they went out I 
 looked at the names and I found it was a list of house-tax col- 
 lections thait he had since 1886. 
 
 Q. Did you say to them, or either of them, that it contained 
 the naanes of persoms.who were going to pay money? A. No, 
 sir; I could not say that 
 
 Q. Did you say to these gentlemen, do you peopile represent a 
 gentleman by the name of Eoibertson? A. No, sir; I never heard 
 of it. 
 
 Q. When dild yoii first hear the name of Eobeirtson? A. Last 
 Sunday it was in the Sunday Sun; Mr. O'Eeilley had no fiiend 
 by the name of Robertson; he had one of the name of Robinson. 
 
 Q. Was either of those names mentioned between you and the 
 gentlemen? A. Not that I remember. 
 
 Q. Did they say to you they did not know Eiotoertisoin, and did 
 you say he is a Senator; and he is the gentiemam who has got 
 charge of our affairs; my husband told me so? A. No, sir; I 
 can assure you I did not. 
 
 Q. Have you told that interview, so far a® you remember it? 
 A. It was so insignificiant, I thought, that I didn't pay much 
 attention to it. 
 
 Q. Your husband died the night previous? A. He h^d not been 
 buried 24 houirs when they called on me, and I was very nen'ous 
 and my mother was dying; I think it was &> cowardly thing for 
 them to do. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see Senator Robertson? A. I never heard the 
 name or saw him; I am not a political woman. 
 
 By Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. You say you aslced these men who called on yom whether it 
 was Mr. Bums; what Burns did yom mean? A. I referred to tht^ 
 president of the association; I had henid Mr. O'Eeilley speak of 
 him and Mr. O'Reilley used to keep envelopes at home to send 
 out notices in, and I helped to iwl dress them; that is how I 
 knew tbe name; T was ac'inainted' with some of the otlier >oflicer,s 
 but not with Bums. 
 
129 
 
 Q. To wliat Ofther officers do you refer? A. I met Colby; why 
 I asked if it wais Mr. Bums was that I didn't know but it might 
 be some men fronn the lodge. 
 
 Q. What aire the hotise-tax collections to which you referred? 
 A. Every motath they talse up a collection and Mr. O'Keilley had 
 to take up that collection, and he always had a memoramdum toi 
 take them from away back to 1886 ; those were the papers I had. 
 
 Q. Collection of what? A. The house tax; the men are taxed 
 so much each month for the expenses of the engine-house; I 
 knoiw very little about the matter. 
 
 Q. I wish yoiu would tell me a little more aibout the house tax; 
 from whom are the collections made? A. I suppose the firemen; 
 the house tax they call It; it is for the expenses of the engiilne- 
 house. 
 
 Q. I)o these collections come from the officers and men also? 
 A. Yes; he had a memorandum of it from 1886. 
 
 Q. How long had he been an officer? A. Fifteen years. 
 
 Q. When did Mr. O'Reilley make this collection to which you 
 refer? A. About every pay-day, T should ju'dge.< 
 
 Q. Do you remember his going Out to make thtem? A. No; the 
 men, I suppose, handed him the money; it was generally $2, or 
 |2.50, something like that. 
 
 Q. You found papers which contained names and amounts of 
 these collections? A. Several; not very miany; wTien they spoke 
 of papers I started to go and get them, but they said I needn't 
 mind; I looked over his papers to see if he owed any bills; I 
 was very particular about his bills. 
 
 Q. What has become of those papers? A. Since I looked over 
 the papers I cleaned out the desk, and my siister and I burned 
 them; every paper belonged to him; I could just as well have 
 kept them, but they were of nO importance, as far as I knew. 
 
 Q. You say you didn't thfink tMsi conversation was of much' 
 impoirtance? A. No, sir; I did not, foir I didn^t umderstan'd it; 
 I isaid, " Grentlemien, are you irom headquJainfers? " and thiey 
 said, "No;" and I thoughii afltieiiward they were men from the 
 loldge. 
 
 Q. You asked tfhlem if they were from headquarteirsi? A. Yes, 
 sir'; I expected my pension, motniey, and I thought they called 
 on' me witibi reference to it. 
 
 Q. You asked them also whlether thej belomged to the fire 
 depairtment? A. Yes, sir, I dtd, and they told' me they didi not! 
 
 Q. Have yotU' fold everything that occurred' in that convenslai- 
 tiion? A. Yes, ais far as I can remember; I think they called 
 upon me at a very strange time. 
 F. 17 
 
130 
 
 Q. Do yoiu remiembeir everytlhing thiat occiuWed)? A. I think 
 I do; the piincipal thing, they aajld, was that they called on 
 me with irefelrenoe to the momey, aaid ttoat if I had smyi money 
 foir mie to keep it^ and I ,said I would mot keep it if I li'ad money 
 that belonged to the assoioiartion. 
 
 Q. What money did yoiu refer to? A. Thie money they re- 
 fewed to; they said thiey umdierstooid he took up the collection 
 and had the momey. 
 
 Q. Did they tell you whiat money it was? A. NC; they did not. 
 
 Q. Did they tell you from whomi they understood he collected 
 the money? A. I don't think they did; I supposed, fnomi the 
 comrv^ersaitioini, it was from membera of the fire departnient. 
 
 Q. Why did yiou say it belonged to members of the associ'a^ 
 tioln? A. Why should I have not said that; I knew it didn't 
 belong th me. 
 
 Q. You isay they didn't tell youi to whom the money belonged!? 
 A. Thtey spoke as though it was collected from members of the 
 fire! department. 
 
 Q. What made yofu think it wiaisi associatiioni money? A, Be- 
 oauise they spoke about it; that is what ledl me toi think so; 
 my husbamid was very much intterestedi ia the 2 per cent tax, 
 and that was why I knew a little about the association; he 
 was wrapped up in it, and thought it wias a grand thing. 
 
 Q. He used to talk about that? A; He did; every little chance 
 he got he used to talk about it; he wasi home, though, very littla 
 
 Qi. Did he talk with yon about it? A. Very little; he did 
 sometimes, at meal®. 
 
 Q. You did not know very much about what was going on? A. 
 I knew very little. 
 
 Q. How lolng after this interview, which was the day after 
 your husband's bnirial, did you burn those' pa.peirs? A. We 
 werie geititing ready to miove -and we moved! the following wedk; 
 I believe I went thinoragh them the Sunday before we mioved; J 
 spent Sunday going through his papers; there was noi object 
 in burning them, only we didn't want to bring a lot of trash 
 with me atl the time; lat ^the. time the gentlemen were there, I 
 wias ready to show them; there was no object in burning 
 them. 
 
 Q. How long after they- were thtere did you bum them? A. 
 Sunday the week after; I moved on Thwrsday, and it was the 
 Sunday befoire; he died onj the 6itlh of March. 
 
 Q. He died at night, and was buried when? A. He was 
 buried on Friday, and the gentlemen called on me on Satur 
 day; I didn't do anything on Sumlday, but the fallowing Snnldlay 
 I btimed them, and moved on ThhirBiclay. 
 
131 
 
 Q. You liave spoken of knoiwing no otlier officers but Mu. 
 Bums? A. I knew of' them by sight; we lived in tlie' same 
 neigihborhood at one time; I iiad met CSolby a couple of times. 
 Q. He was tireasureri of the asaociation? A. Yes. 
 Q. Did hie cotae to the hiousei? A. No, sir. 
 Q. You only saw him as you s)aw him paseinig oin the street? 
 A, Yes. 
 
 Q. This iLOTise-taix colleatioii yora speak of, do you knoiw wliat 
 O'Reilley did with the money? A. They paid a, woman to cleam 
 the place; that is why they took up tlie collectioii ; it was for 
 the expenses of the engine-house, 
 
 Q. He took the money with) him and paid out th.ese expensesi? 
 A. I don't know what he did with it; he didn't keep it very long; 
 he had but very little momey around him. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Fneel? A. I met the gentlfiman ainid JI 
 have seen him on the street 
 Q. He never was at the hoiuse? A. !N^o, sir. 
 Q. Do you know any of the other officers, Oroker or Mr. Martini? 
 A. I only kniofw them by name; Oolby, I think, is the only one 
 I know. 
 Q. Mr. Bums yoiu have never seem? A. 'No., sir. 
 Q. Your husband didn't keep any bank account? A. No, sia*:; 
 I told that at the surrogate's office, the day I was down there, 
 he didn't open any bank account. 
 
 Q. And all his papers relating to the departmient affairs were 
 kept at the engine-house; none of them at the house? A, I 
 would not have seen those mem,orandums only the men sent 
 them up; that is how they came to the house. 
 
 Q. When did they come? A. I sent down for his papers the 
 day aifter he "died to get the deeds of the grave; that is why I 
 sent, and amongst the deeds was a lot of little papers; a tailoi-'s 
 bill receipted; and the rest of the papers came up when his 
 clothes came, which was a few days after his death. 
 
 Q. Was tha* before or after these men came to see you? A. I 
 had received some before they came and some after; they sent 
 what was in the desk, and a little later what was in the olo'set, 
 Q. Were those papers which described the amounts and names ; 
 were thoBie in the piapens' that came before or afterward? A, 
 A little of both. 
 
 Q. Did you see the officers of the tire, department during thfe 
 week succeeding your husband's funeral? A. No, sir; I think 
 not. 
 
 Q. None of his lellow officers? A. Only the day before he 
 died his captain called to see him; his captain was on sick 
 leave the tinue himself. , 
 
132 
 
 Q. Do yoTi Imow an officer I'll the departmesnt nanued' Daniels? 
 A. Yes; I doi; "he. is a namesake of mine. 
 
 Q. Did he call? A. Yesi; he caJled one afternoion. 
 
 Q. After the death of yonr husband? A. Yes; We called! after 
 the death of my hhsband because we talked about the fact that 
 I was going tbi move. 
 
 Q. That is, wbile yon were making arrangements to mofve? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What company is Ue connected with? Ai It is a truck 
 company; No. i22, I tbink. 
 
 Q. Wbat i)s Ms position? A. Assistant foreman. 
 
 Q. Did he s&e these papers? A. lie didn't ask me about any 
 papers; be called to sympatbize with me, and T asked Mm to 
 sit down, but he said it was his meal hour, and be did not have 
 tfitoie, which I understood. 
 
 Q. He made only one call? A. That is all; that was a few diays 
 before I moved ; I didn't pay much attention to it. 
 
 Q. Did you know that prior to the time when this second 
 man called tbtere that there was a bill in Albany wMcb pro- 
 vided for increasing the salaries of officers of the fire department? 
 A. Yes, sir; Mr. O'Eieilley mentioned it a few diays before his 
 death and we joked about it; that is all I know about it. 
 
 Q. How long before his death was it he mentioned it? A. , 
 During the week hte died; he came home Sunday; be mentioned 
 it sometime during the week; I don't really remember when; he 
 was interested in the 2 per cent, tax bill, and didn't speak mnich 
 about anything else. 
 
 Q. Was that the first time you had heard there was a bill to 
 increase the saJatrites? A. Yes, sir; the first time I can remem- 
 ber it 
 
 By Mr. Kaines: 
 
 Q. You have never discovered any money oir funds belonging 
 to your husband and standing, in his nataie anywhere? A. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Kaines offered in evidence rule 30 of the rules and regular 
 tions of the fire department, relating to house taxes, as follows: 
 " Employ a person to make up beds, wash bedclothes, keep dor- 
 mitories cleain and in order, for which «ich officer and memiber 
 shall pay his pro ratal share oif the explense, andl ita the case of 
 transfer or detail of more than 15 days' duration, the proper 
 proportionate share of expense to thb several companies in which 
 he may have iserved, not exceeding |2 per month, to each offi'cer 
 and member." 
 
 Q. That is the house tax to which you referred? A. Yes, sir. 
 
133 • 
 
 Bt Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. Did yoiur husibaind take to Ms bed on the AiJai of March]? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was he up and about until that tiime? AL Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was he attending to Ms duties until that day? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Your name is O'Eieilley? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Rainesi: 
 
 Q. Do you remember whether he attended on Sunday evening 
 a meetSnig of the officers? , A. No, sir; he did not; he came home 
 to dinner between 4 and 5 o'clock on the 4th ofi March and said 
 he felt very bad, and we semt around to the chief to^ notify him 
 that he was very sick, amd I also notified oiuin doctor; and he 
 never left tlhe house again until he was carried out. 
 
 Q. Sunday was the' 3d ■of March? A. Yesi; that was the day. 
 
 Q. Then he could not have atten'ded a meetiiag on the 4th? 
 A. The man was dying on the 4th; he died on the 5th!;' yooi might 
 say death struck him right away. 
 
 Q. He went to his: duties aA the emgine^house an the mornimg 
 of the 3d? A. He had a funeral toi attendi to; one of the mem- 
 beirs of the cotoipany had died, and he had to go around a good 
 deal about it; a mam by the namei of Fogarty had died'. 
 
 Charles H. Thompson, being duly swoirn asi a witness and 
 exiamined! by Mr. Root, testified as follows: 
 
 Q. You aire a member of the fire department in the uniformed 
 foirce? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What colQipany? A. Engine CSompainy N<x 58. 
 
 Q. "VMaiere do you reside? A. No. 22- Kings stre»2:t. 
 
 Q. Hofw long have you beieu' in the departmeint? A. Nine 
 yeai?s next momth. 
 
 Qr Are you. an officer of the Firemen's Mutual Benevolent 
 AsBoiciatioin? A. I am a delegate of Engine Company No., 58. 
 
 Q. You are the repneisentative of that company in the asso'- 
 oiiaition? A. Yes, ar. 
 
 Q. What are the duties of delegates? A. They collect the 
 monthly duies and attend mjeetings. 
 
 Q. The eixecutive boldy of the associatiion iconsists of one 
 delegate frlom eacihl company in the department? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that delegate acta as tireasureir for' his conapany? A. 
 He acts aisi coJlectoir. 
 
 Q. How are delegates eljected? A. By members of 'the com- 
 pany. , , 
 
• 134 
 
 Q. So that you were elected by the members of Engine 
 Company No. 58 as their represemtative in the exeoutiv© body oif 
 the Firemen's Mutual Benevolent Association? A. YeS)' sir. 
 
 Q. Th.ere ia no other general association of firemen? A, 
 Hhere is the officers' association. 
 
 Q. Any of the men in that? A Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. This is an association of the men? A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who are the 'officers of Engine Ck>mpany No. 58? A O. 
 J. Burke, fopeman, and Samuel Eeed, assistant foreman. 
 
 Q. Do yoiu remember the bill w'hichj was passed by the Legis- 
 lature at this present session to increase the eiaJariesi of fire- 
 men? A. Yie&, sir. 
 
 Q. Do yotui rememben the fact of an amjcndment having been 
 put upon that bill wiMle in the Legislature to increase the 
 offioers' sialaries? A. I heard of itj. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any conversation with Assistant. Pore- 
 man Samuel Eeed, of Engine Company No. 58, about that amendh 
 memt to increase the officers' salaries? A I didn't have a con- 
 versation with him, but I heard hami speak of it 
 
 Q. Tell when yoiui first heard him speak of it? A It was 
 around piay-day, about the 2d of March; he was coming down 
 the stairs and he made th|e asisentlioini that he had to put up his 
 money for the increase of salary and he hopeid the men would 
 do the same. 
 
 Q- Telli as near as you can, juist what he said and to wihoim 
 he said it? A. His woirds, to litq best of my reooUectioin, were 
 that he had contributed his share and he hoped the men would 
 (xmtribute their share. 
 
 Q. Did he say what he had put up? A He said $30. 
 
 Q|. Did you hear him say lany thing about the foneman? A. 
 No, sir; I could not swear to that. 
 
 Q. Who was present when he made thlsi statement? A. Most 
 of the men in the house were om the flooF at the time, because 
 tih)ey were receiving their pay-checks. 
 
 Q. Who had given them the checks? A He gave thtem' out 
 to them himjself. 
 
 Q. Mr. Eeed? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether he had' been at headquart|ersi for 
 the dhecksi? A. Yes, sir; he went down and when he came im 
 the house he said the engineer was going to get out of our 
 association and join the officers' assiociation ; that he had a right 
 to come in. 
 Q. After that he said that he had' put up the PO? A. Yes, sir. 
 Q. Did he say what he had put it up fop? A. The bill to 
 Increase the salaries- 
 
135 
 
 Qi Do yoiui say yiou lieard Ti i Tn ispieak of tlii® oca anotlieiri oicscah 
 'Sioin? A. Yies, sir. 
 
 Q. Wlieiii was that? A. I heard him say on the 2d of this 
 pBesent month; he sppike again about giving up; momey. 
 
 Q. Wihat did lie siay then? A. He said he was: going to put 
 up his igihaire now and iiei iioped the men would come in andi 
 put up theiins^ and also on another occasion about tbe 3d- of the 
 month, wheni Foreman Goioderisoni oame in; he said, "Here is 
 thie man coming for my money to> increase ouir salaries." 
 
 Q. Wlio is Giooderson? A. He belongs tot Engine 35. 
 
 Q. Is that in the samei battalion as ISTo. 58? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is GooiderSiOn the collecton for that battalion? A. So the 
 rumoB went that he wajsi oollectoir for that battalion'. 
 
 Q. "VSTiat day was it that lie made this remark? A. About the 
 3d of April, the day after pay-day. 
 
 Q. Tell me againi what it wasi be said? A. He siaid, hiere comes 
 that man; for my money to increase our salaries. 
 
 Q, To whom diild he say that? A. He said it on tbe floor; I 
 was standing withia a few feet of him. 
 
 Q. What did you say? A. I tbink I walked away. 
 
 Q. Did you ever say anytMng in response to his proposition 
 that the men should put up? A. JSTo; I made no answer. 
 
 Q. Why didn't you answer? A. If I thougbt could come any- 
 thing like this I would have found out; I thought it was only 
 a matter of foomi; I didn't tbink it was coming to an investiga- 
 tion; if I had I would bave listened more and talked! with him 
 more about it. 
 
 Q. When be said be thought the members ought to put up did 
 jou say anything to him about whether you would put up or 
 not? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Wtisy didn't you tell him you wouid or wouldi not? A. I 
 didn't feel so disposed. 
 
 Q. Had there been an arrangement among the men that they 
 would not? A. Yes, sir; at a meeting of our organization it was 
 spoken of that not a dollar was to be used. 
 
 Q. When was that? A. After, I tluhk it was, the iirst week 
 after the bill was introduced in January. 
 
 By Mr. Eaines: 
 
 Q. Has Mr. Beed any reputation in the engine-house as a 
 joker? A. No, sir; he is always seriousi in hisi talk. 
 
 Q. At the time when he talked to you' about thlisi matter you 
 thought it was serilous talk? A. I took it to be. 
 
 Q. Didn't yoiu leave and walk away? A. I did on one occasion 
 when he spoke about Grooderson^ 
 
136 
 
 Q. "Why did jmt leaye? A. Because he used am oath that I 
 thought was a very peculiar oath to use about a brother flrieman. 
 
 Q. At the time Groodersou came you knew the Pavey bill had 
 passed days beloire? A. Yes; it passed the Assembly. 
 
 Q. Didn't you know it pasised the Senate on the 6th of March? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. So that it got through the Legislature on the 25th' of 
 March? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you swear that on the 3d of April you did not know 
 whether the Pavey bill had passed the Legislature the week 
 before? A. No, sir. i 
 
 Q. Can't you be mistaken about this talk beiaig on the 3d of 
 April when Gkwderson came here? A. It was directly after 
 pay-day. 
 
 Q. Did you see what occurred between Groodersom and Keed 
 when he came in? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did they talk? A, They went up in the office. 
 
 Q. Did you hear of Reed paying any other sum on account of 
 this bUl? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn't he say he paid |50 at one time? A. Not that I heaird. 
 
 Q. Didn't he say he paid |80? A. Not that I heard of. 
 
 Q. Didn't he say he paid $100? A. Not that I heard of. 
 
 Q. Didn't he say that tO' yiou? A. Not, siir. 
 
 Q. How loug has Eeed been in youip company? A^ Over a year. 
 
 Q. When were you last reported for misconduct? A. Five 
 years ago. 
 
 Q. Any charges against you during the last year? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Any since Reed came in the hojise? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What were the charges against jow five years ago? A. 
 That I was asleep on house watch. 
 
 Q. What were you fined? A. Ten days' pay, and I want to say 
 that the evidence on that trial was perjury. 
 
 Q. Was there another occasion when you were charged with 
 neglect of duty? A. Yes, sir; a month before. 
 
 Q. You are familiar with the rules of the department? A. 
 Yes, sir. ' 
 
 Q. This raising of a corruption fund was a serious matter 
 affeciiing the discipline of the departmient? A. It ought to be. 
 
 Q. You are acquainted with section 20 of the general rules 
 of the department? A. Not to say them; I have read the book 
 through. 
 
 Q. You say you have read section 20? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Was it not your duty iinder that rule to immediately report 
 this conversation at headquarters? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. That rule (requires you to? A. I don't think it does. 
 
137 
 
 Q. Don't it affect thie fire department? A. I don't thimk soi. 
 
 Q. Don't it bring the flre department into disrepute? A. Not 
 until it came out in thie papers. 
 
 Q. Noft until it ciame out in^ Tlbe Press^ yiou didn't think it 
 yoiuiP biuisinesis to report it? A. Noi,, sir. 
 
 Q. When did you flreit tell it to anybody? A. I think last 
 Monday oir| IHiesday. 
 
 -Q. To whom did you tell it? A. To Qongressman Quigg. > 
 
 Q. Wteire? A. At hisi office^ 
 
 Q. How did youi come tol go there? A. I was sent therei from 
 depaortment headquartejpsL 
 
 Q. Tell ua whb communioatled tihe order to you? A. Jesisom, 
 slecretary olf . the bloaiPd. ^ 
 
 Q. Did the seoretary tell you who issued the orders? A, He 
 told me *o go toi The Press office. , 
 
 Q. Did toe tell yoiu who isisiuied that order? A. I spoke to 
 Sheffield before that, 'and he told me' that he oirdeired mte there. 
 
 Q. Sheffield was in Quigg's office? A. INlo; sir. 
 
 Q. Did Sheffield ask yoiu about this convereation? A. IN^o, 
 dr. 
 
 <3. Yon didn't tell him abont it? A. No, sin 
 
 Q. Have yom and Fireman Hanick talked the matter over? A. 
 Yies, ,sir. 
 
 Q. Wtoen? A. I think isoniie time in March. 
 
 Q. Did yon understand that Fireman Hanck had repoirted this 
 conversation to anyone after yion had been called in? A. 'No, sir. 
 
 Q. You and Hauck talked it over with a view to what? A. 
 The way I iciame to epeak toi htm was ,Zorn had told me and 
 he called me over to aisk if I had hleard the conversation. 
 
 Q. You told Hauck? A. Test, sir. 
 
 Q. "Wlueni was that? Al Som:e time in March on the floor of 
 tihe engine-honise. 
 
 Q. What time in March? A. Betfween the 5th and 15th. 
 
 Q. At that timie you told Hauck the same? A. Just what I 
 had heard. 
 
 Q. Did Hanck tell yoiu why he was asking? A. No, sir; he 
 came therie to see a firemian and wais waiting toi have: him come in. 
 
 Q. Is Zoim a membeir of your company? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is Ha.u!ck? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You hJad known, of course, Hanck was' a bitter enemy of 
 2k>m's? A. No, sir. , 
 
 Q. Didn't yon talk about Zo^m that day with Hauok? A. Not, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Didn't Hanck apply to yolu for the information instead 
 of yoiur giving it ont? A. Zom asked me if I had heard amy 
 F. 18 
 
138 
 
 ooflQTeirBation with flremea abaut (raising mioiiiey, amd I said, 
 "Yes;" and I told in presence of tliase twoi what I heard; I 
 thought that was going to be the end of it. 
 
 Q. Did ihe inquire the same thing of the oithen mea as off 
 yo!u? A. Not on thait oiccasioin- 
 
 Q. Any other time? A. I dion't remember. , 
 
 Q. During that miointh of March^ were all the men ^askedi whiat 
 they had heard Reed say? A Not asi I know of. 
 
 Q. Sin;oe this article came oiut in The Press, have all been 
 interrogated as to what they heard' Reed say? A. They might 
 have. ^ 
 
 Q. Since the firemen's bill passed, lias there been a raise in 
 the assessmients of the benevolent lassociation'? A 'No, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn't you pay 50 cents a month? A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Don't yon pay |1 a month nowi? A. Tliere is a vote on 
 that now. i 
 
 Q. Eesolntioni pendinig? A Yes, sir; it has been voted upoji, 
 but the vote has not beeni repdrtedl; it is to raise the assessment 
 to |1 a month for eight months. 
 
 Q. That would raise about |900 a month? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you informed wliat that is for? A. That is to get the 
 fund up; it has been drawn on so heavily foir death assessments 
 and we wiant to keep' thie lassociatioln up. 
 
 Q. About ihbw much has been drawn out of it? A. I think at 
 the last meeting it stood $1,700. 
 
 By Mr. Brtot: 
 
 Q. WMt was it Eeed said about Gooderson? A. It wasi nioit 
 a nice expression to make, and although I am not a churchman 
 and I don't believe in any church, I don't like to use it. 
 
 Q. Did you see Gooderson: at the house more thanl once? 'A. 
 I saw Mm there three timesi, to my recollection. 
 
 Q. When was the first time? A. Juet at the time when re- 
 miarks were made about raising money. 
 
 Q. Had youi ever seen him there before the month of March!? 
 A. No, sir; never. 
 
 Q. Didn't yoiu know thiait thfe bill providing fon increase of 
 officers' salariesi is still pending in the Legislature? A. % 
 believe it is still pending. , 
 
 Edwarid H. Tobin, being duly swoim as a witness and examined 
 by Mr. Root, testified as follows: 
 
 Q. You are an officer of the fire department? A. Yes, sir. 
 Q. In what comjyanj ? A. Engine Company No. 23. 
 Q. "What is jour office? A. Assistant foreman. 
 
139 
 
 Q. Who are the other oflficers? A. David Connors. 
 
 Q. How loug have you been assistant foreman of Engine Com- 
 pany No. -23? A. I think about eight years. 
 
 Q. Where do you reside? A. No. 412 West Fifty -fifth street. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in the depar-tment? A. Twenty 
 years. j 
 
 Q. Are yon the collector for the Ninth Battalion? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any other busitoss except that of an officer of 
 the fire department? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you a man of property outside your salary? A. Yes, 
 sir; a small piece of property I own. 
 
 Q. What is that? A. A vacant lot of ground. 
 
 Q. Does it produce any income? A. No, sir; it does not. 
 
 Q. Are you trustee for anybody? A. No, sir; I am. treasurer 
 of twO' organizations. 
 
 Q. What organizations are you treasurer for? A. One is a 
 lodge in the United Order of Workmen, another is the Council 
 of the Order of American Mremen. 
 
 Q. What fund had you of the United Order of Workmen? A. 
 They have two separate funds; they keep a, beneficiary and a 
 general fund. 
 
 Q. What is the amount of the fund? A. It varies at times; 
 sometimes |600 or $700 and at other times not over $100. 
 
 Q. What was the other? A. Order of American. Firemen. 
 
 Q. "WTiat organization is that? A. The council in this depart- 
 ment comprises both officers and men. 
 
 Q. What is the object of that organization? A. The creation 
 of a fraternal spirit throughout the State. 
 
 Q. Does that have funds? A. We have a fund m that. 
 
 Q. AVhen did yon have a fund in that? A. There always has 
 been since it was instituted. 
 
 Q. Of what amount? A. I think at present it amonnts to 
 about $90. 
 
 Q. How is the fund of this Council of United Firemen raised? 
 A. By an assessment of $1 a year on each member: 
 ' Q. How many members are there? A. I think at the present 
 time about 140 or 150 members; I would not be positive about 
 the amount. 
 
 Q. Wheu is that paid? A. Generally paid in October. 
 
 Q. What is paid with that .fund? A. That fund generally goes 
 to pay expenses of th'e council; 
 
 Q. What is the general nature of th'ose expenses? A. The 
 salary of the secretary is $100 a year. 
 
 Q. When is that paid? A. That I can not answer for the sim- 
 ple reason I have niever paid it, neither have I paid any expeadi- 
 
140 
 
 tures since I have lield the office of treasurer of this council, for 
 the reasoa that I have only been elected this position since last 
 January; the former treasurer of the orgamization having died 
 I received the money I have on hand from hiis vridow, somevpHere 
 in the middle of Fehruary of the present year. 
 
 Q. How much did you receive? A. A little over |90. 
 
 Q. The United Order of American Workmen fund amounted to 
 how much? A. It varied from $700 and $800 down to $100 and 
 it may run to f 1,000. 
 
 Q. From what is that fund raised? A. From assessments levied 
 hy the grand lodge on different lodges and its members, which 
 are collected and muse be paid back to the grand lodge at a 
 certain day. 
 
 Q. Assessments arf levied by the grand lodge upon members 
 of the different lodges? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the amount of those assessments? A. From |1 to 
 I" each month. 
 
 Q. How many members are there? A. We have at the present 
 time, I think, 190 members. 
 
 Q. What is the assessment for the month' of April? A. I think 
 I paid $2 for each member in good standing. 
 
 Q. And what was the assessment for March? A. March, I 
 think, was $3. 
 
 Q. And what was it for February? A. I think February was $3. 
 
 Q. Did you collect those assessmlents? A. "No, sir; I did not. 
 
 Q. What do you have to do with them? A. I receive them 
 from the financial secretary. 
 
 Q. He receives them and pays them to you? A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you pay them to the grand lodge? A. Yes, sir; I 
 forward the check to the grand todge for the amount of money 
 received. 
 
 Q. Who is the financial secretary? A. Jamesi F. Crowe. 
 
 Q. Where does he live? A. No. 420 Wesit FLfty-flfth street 
 
 Q. Do you know hiow much moniey he turned over tol you in the 
 mJomth of March? A. I have not coumiatted it to memory; I ooiuM 
 not say. 
 
 Q. Or in Februairy? A. No, sir; the books will tell thiait whidh 
 I have iri my possession'. > ^ 
 
 Q. Whiat books are they?' A, Boloks belonging to thie loid'ge 
 and show the receipts. ' 
 
 Q. You keep an accoiunt? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you also keep a bank aocioiunt? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. Where? A. Eiverside Bank. 
 
 Q. Do you keep more than one account in that bank? A. Yes, 
 sir; thiPee oiri four. , ; i 
 
Q. Wlhiat are the different acooTimts? A. They are all deposf- 
 ited under otae book. 
 
 Q. All in one accojumt; at the bank? A. That isi all, ^ 
 
 ,Q. What different accoiants go in that fund? A. The United 
 Order of Workmen; and the Owunicil of Americian Firemen, and 
 money I collect monthly Jfoom the offtcers of the Ninth Battalioin'. 
 
 Q. How nuany officers are thterei in the Ninth Battalion? A. 
 I tihink, all told, 16 or 17. 
 
 Q. How much do they pay? A. One dollar pen month. , 
 
 Q. Does anything else go in thiat account? A. That is all fC 
 Icniow of, unless my own pensonal account may be in that; that 
 amounts tb $5 Or |10, noi morel th'anl that 
 
 Q'. Yo|u Biay youi dom't think that amoiunts to more than |5 
 or $10'? A. Noi, sir. , j 
 
 Q. What is your pay? A. Eighteen hundred dollans a year. 
 
 Q. Do youi get it in chtecksi? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. Do you deposit the checks oir get them cashed!? A. Some- 
 times I idepoisit them anid other times get them cashedl 
 
 Q. You carry it in your pocket, until you spend it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You play your bills in' cash? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You ^00,4 draw chtecks? A. I draw checks for rent, and 
 pay money for assessments and! send money for assessments; 1 
 dlepoisit in. banlc and draw check for the full amount to! pay the 
 membera' dnies. ^ 
 
 Q. Where is youir bank-book? A. Th the engine-house. 
 
 Q. And your check-book? A. Yes-, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you bring them here? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. This" af ternooin ? A. Yes, sir; I can have them here this 
 afternoon. 
 
 Q. You have no objection! to the bank furnishing a transcrip|t 
 of your account? A. I don't think there will be any trouble: 
 abo!ut th'at; my book is balanced in the banlc and I don't think 
 there have been mane than two: or three checks since. 
 
 By Mr. Eaines: 
 
 Q. Have you ever coMeated any money from your battalion- 
 outside thiisl dollar a mohth? A. Noj, sir. 
 
 Q- On anjy account? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge o!r information of any oolleoted 
 outside of liiat? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You have never paid any yourself? A. No', sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge or information in regard toi the 
 raising of a fund among the ofQcers for the purpose of this 
 salary bill oir for the purpo!se of the 2 per flent. tax bill, o^r any- 
 thing else? A. No, sir. 
 
Id2 
 
 Q. You have been examined by your eiuperiors? A, No, sir. 
 
 Q. HaTC you liad amy talk with. Mr. Quigg? A, No, sir. 
 • Q. You have never been called to headquarteris and imterro- 
 gated about this matter in any way? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Somebody has used youjr name in oonnection with, some 
 dinner being given to Robertsom and Payne at the Mortom 
 Housle; are you respomisible for having made that statement? 
 A). I niev^r heard anything about it until I heardJ it in couitt 
 yesterday, and what I saw in the paper on a previouis. occasion. 
 
 Q. Do yoiu know of any dinner! being given to Eobertsom and 
 Payne at the Morton House? A. No, sir; I do not; I would 
 have been pleaised to know; of it. 
 
 Q. You newer told amybody that there was' such a dumer? 
 A., iNoi, w; I mever heard of it, untili I heiard anid saw, of it in 
 the paper on a previous ocicasioti. 
 
 Q. The sito'ry is, as I underistainid it, that Zorn told ClifEond 
 that you had toJd Zorn that such a dinner was given these 
 gentlemen at the Morton House? A. All the answer I cam 
 make is that I think the first time I ever saw Zorn, wasi yester- 
 day. 
 
 Q. You never made any such staitement to Zom or anyone 
 else? A. No, sir. 
 
 Oscar H. LaGramge, being duly sworn and examined by Mr. 
 
 Root, tesilfied as follows): 
 
 Q. You are a commissioner of the fire department? A I am. 
 
 Q. You were appointed when? A. On the 5th of March, 1895. 
 
 Q. You have heard, of course, of the publications in regard to 
 the raising of a fund by the offioers of the fire department for 
 the purpose of securing legislation at Albany in regard to 
 salaries? A. I heard somethlhig before the article appeared in 
 The Press; I read that article; I have not read much of it since. 
 
 Q How long before the article in The Press appeared did you 
 hear that? A. I think about four weeks. 
 
 Q. And from what source? A. Commissioner RobWins told me 
 that a friend of his had told him substaatially what French 
 testified to yesterday, and I found that French was the person 
 who told him since I have been subpoenaed •to answer hene. 
 
 Q. You say about four weeks before The Press article appeared? 
 A. Yes, sir; and since this investigation began he told me French' 
 was his informer. 
 
 Q. Have you made any inquiry in the course of your official 
 duties as to the truth of this statement? A. I have, quite ex- 
 tensively, from firemen and from officers of the force; I have 
 not gone outside of that. 
 
343 
 
 Q. Did you inquire i?rom Officer Croker? A. I did. 
 
 Q. What is Ms office? A. BattaJion chief. 
 
 Q. Please state th'e conversation between him and you? A'. I 
 wrote down immiediiaitely after my oomTersation with Chief Crolcer 
 the substance of that conversation, andl I cam give it better if 
 you allow me to look at that memorandum:; I can give it without 
 but I think I should rely more upon what I wrote immediately 
 after the conversation; I asked Mr. Crober if he had subscribed 
 anything toward the fund for assisting in the passage of the 
 officem' bill, and he said he had not; I asked him if he knew any 
 officers who had subscribed and he did not reply directly; T 
 then askP'd him. if he was solicited to subscribe and he said he 
 was not. because he knew the committee was coming and gave 
 notice in advance that he would' not ^rive up ; I said do you know 
 of any officers who did pTit up; and he said I know those who 
 did not in my battalion; and I said if you Imow those who did 
 not you probably know those who did; he named one who has a 
 Erench nalme, beginning with G- who did not put up; his name 
 is Gicquel ; and then I said again, if yon know those who did 
 not give np th'en; you mnst have known those whol did; then I 
 'said that money was raised, and he said yes, and put in bank; 
 I didn't haive any further conversation with him; I talked with 
 him abont his being a yonng officer and thai; where such charges 
 were made, whether they were tmie or false, that he shioiuld 
 stand up like a man and tell the truth. 
 
 Q. Did you make inqniHes from other members of the depart- 
 ment? A. Yes; I asked a good' many; I could not remember them 
 all ; as fast as I heard of anybody I sient for him, and if he told me 
 of anybody I sent for him, and if I did not get anything I made 
 no memorandum, and if I did I made note of the interview; in 
 the main, I did not find anything; T have called before me a 
 great many of the force; 25, I think. 
 
 By Mr. Baines : 
 
 Q. You are interested, fotr the good oif the depa,rtment, in run- 
 ning down Ihis rumor and finding ont what foundation there 
 was for it? A. 1 was. 
 
 ^. And as a -part of your official duty you were thoroug'h and 
 careful? A. I could not say T was thorough for the pai'ties were 
 not nnden oath. 
 
 Q. Each one you examined yon tried to get the truth ft-om 
 Mm? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you personally acquainted with most of these men? 
 A. I was not. 
 
 Q. Some of them yon were acquainted with? A. I could hardly 
 say; that I was with' one. 
 
Q. When did yotui commence to call them bef oir'e yon ? A. Not 
 until the Senate committee was appointed, because I thought it 
 might be an idle scandal that would blow over; not until The 
 Press article appeaired. 
 
 Qi What day did yon have Orolcer before you? A. I don't 
 remember the date. 
 
 Q. Will you accommodate me with the memorandum yon have 
 of thait interview? A. Yes; I will say I first called Chief Bonner 
 and read the article td him, and asked him what he thonght of 
 it; he said he conld not tell me. 
 
 Q; You were pireviously acquainted with Croker? A. No, sir; 
 I never met him until T sent for Miu. 
 
 Q. From whom did you receive his name? A. From John 
 McOabe, who isi dead. 
 
 Q. You had this interview on what day with Croker? A. I 
 could not narae the day; only a short time ago. 
 
 Q;^ Did MicCabe, whfen he gave you the name of Croker,' tell' 
 yoiu that a man by the name of Leaiy had some communicatioia 
 through htm with' Croker? A. He did noL 
 
 Q. At the time MciCabe gave yon the name of Croker, did you 
 heau the name of Leary associated with Croker? A. I did not 
 
 Q. Did McCabe asisociate the twioi names? A. He did not. 
 
 Q. Weir^, you told at any time biefore- isending for Croker whiat 
 to say to) Oroker? A. 1] dbn/t ithink I was; I know I didn't tell 
 him'. ^ 
 
 Q. Didn't McCabe tell jou that he introduced Leary toi Oroker? 
 A. I never heard him mention Leiary's name. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you who he intinoduced to. Croker? A. He 
 didn't tell me he introdiueed any person. 
 
 Q. At 'tihle time Croker came to you, how did you open the 
 siibject? A. I can not remember exactly what language (I 
 used; I slaid there is a great deail of scandai grown up out of 
 the fact of sending fire lawyersi to Albany to loibby for bills, 
 an<| that I thonght the boys had goiti intoi a scrape, and asl long 
 as they would have to come belore the committee I wanted to 
 knolw: what stand to take iso as tO' defendl our meni, and if they 
 were to be punished, to miaike it as light as possible; I also spoke 
 to Mm to the effect that he was a young officer of great pTOmise. 
 
 Q. Did Oroker inform you that a man by the name of Leaiy 
 app'roaohied Mm? A. He did not; I have given you the sub- 
 stance otf what he -said. 
 
 Q. Did Oroker tell yon abioint a monthly assesisment? A. I 
 think he mentioned it, but that was all proper. 
 
 Q. How did he explain it to you? A. He said that was for the 
 expenses of piroteoting thte fliemen's portion of the 2 per cent. 
 
145 
 
 tax on insurance oompanies, and I think he said something 
 about benefits to widows and disabled firemen. 
 
 Q, Did he thtere also statte it wais for the purpose of payimgi 
 expenses of committees in going to Albany? A. I think he didl; 
 I knew that from isomie of them!. 
 
 Q. Did he go on and explain that? A. He referred to it. 
 
 Q. Did he say lie wias notified or heard in some way that 
 an application was going to be made to him tO' subscribe some- 
 thing to the offlcers' bill,, and lie declared lie would not, and so 
 was never asked? A. He notified them in advance. 
 
 Q. Did he say lie knew the officjers in his bai:talion didn't 
 subscribe anything? A, He said he knew thoee who did not. 
 
 Q. Commissioner LaGrange, did lie say that he knew some who 
 did not? A. I think he said he knew those who did not. 
 
 Q. Did he siay some did not? A. He said, " I know those who 
 did mot;" and I said, "Th6n, yOu miust know those who did, be- 
 cause there are only two claisses." 
 
 Q. That was the natural inference? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. It followed, because he knew some who did hot, he knew 
 some who did? A. If he knew those vrho did not, he knew 
 thoise who did. 
 
 Q. Did you ask him what money was raised? A. No, sir; 
 he told me in advance he did not know. 
 
 Q. Did you at that time ask whether the money was raised 
 tav one bill oir another bill at tMs stage of the conversation? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You did not define then for what bill you were talking? 
 A. I did not, because I thought it was understoipd. 
 
 Q. He had previously gone into an explanatiom to you in 
 regard to raising money for the 2 per cent, tax bill for expenses 
 of the legislative commit-tee and after that this opnversation 
 occurred? A. Yes; it related, hoiwever, to these. ^ 
 
 Q. AfteP he had explained to you this |1 monthly assessment, 
 this conversation occurred in regard to officers in his battalipin: 
 as to who had suibscribed and who had not? A, Yea. 
 
 Q. When^ you asked the question, if any money was raised,, 
 did you incorporate in it the words, "in the ofiflcens' associa- 
 tion?" A. He said, "Yes." 
 
 Q. At the time of putting this question, you did not incorpoK 
 rate in the question the officers' bill? A. No, sir; that was 
 previously gone over. 
 
 Q. Whiajt particular money he at the time referred to was 
 a matter of inference toi you from the general rum of the cou'- 
 versation? A. No; a matter of conviction. 
 
 Q. It was an inference received by you from' the general tenor 
 oif the oohvensation? Ai I siimjply asked him abouit the ?1, ai 
 month. / ' , 
 
146 
 
 Q. And h!e said niioney was raised and put in bank; as you 
 iiave stated, the form of the question did not ineliide the officers' 
 amendiaent? A. I asked him what he knew about raising 
 money to get through the officers' pay-bill; that wasi the subject 
 of coniTiensation, and when I pressed tbe question he answered as 
 I ihave stated. 
 
 Q. Did you hav« any conversation with Croker as to whether 
 he had any talk with Leary? , A. T never heard the name of 
 Leary from Croker; I never hieard ilt until after I saw Oroker 
 within' a day or two. 
 
 Q. I mean Leary of The Press? A, We didn't mention him 
 at all. 
 
 Q. Did you hiaive any conversation with LeaJry on the subject 
 of Oroker? A. ITo, sir. 
 
 Q. I will substitute the name of Denis O'Leary audi ask whether 
 you had any conversation wiltih him about Croker? A. No, sir; 
 it is conceded that the question does not relate to William 
 O'Leary of The Press. 
 
 Q. Did yoti have a conversation with OfScer Burns? A I did; 
 he is the first mam I summoned. 
 
 Q. You fully ilnterrogated him? A. I did. 
 
 Q. Did he maiire a statement of his knowledge? A. Yes; very 
 distinctly. 
 
 Q. Did yoiu hear Ms testimony here? A. Yes, sir; he told me 
 he knew nothing about it, was not in it and was sorry for it. 
 
 Q. Sorry for this scandal? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you communicartle this interview with Croker to Mr. 
 Eioot? A. I did. 
 
 Q. Immediately? A. Very soon. 
 
 Q. And the other interviews you had? A. I think I did one or 
 two; may be half a dozen. 
 
 Q. You have here at the present time a memorandium made of 
 the interviews you had? A. Only where I thought I leairtied 
 somethinig. 
 
 Q. Someitlhing worth following up? A. Worth inquiring about. 
 
 Q. Those are recorded on papers yoai now hold in your hand? 
 A. Yes; I think the greater portilon of thiem are contained in 
 these papers. 
 
 Q. Have you any objection to leaving tWose in the possesdoni of 
 the committee? A. Not the slightest; the committee will be 
 a safe custMian for any papers; I am willing to leave thiem with 
 the committee, but I don't want them to* go to the public, amd I 
 am also willing that oounsel should look over any memorandum 
 that I made. 
 
 (Papers received from La Grange and majrked for identification 
 "Exhibits 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 of Aipril 27th, 1895, L. Al W. S.") 
 
147 
 
 At this point Commissiomer La Grange requested! toi be per- 
 mitted by the committee to mlak'e a statement to^ tbe reporters, 
 which was as follows: I haYe been asked if I fenew any reason 
 why McCabe committed suicide. I think he was an honest man 
 and a gentleman who could not lie. He had been trusted with 
 his associates or some of them with things he could not tell. 
 He expected to be called before this committee; he had Msh 
 blood in Ms veins and could not be an informer, and he is dead. 
 
 By Mr. Eaines: 
 
 Q. I have iin my hand a memorandum made by you of conver- 
 sations with McOabe? A. I will taike the paper as I have not yet 
 been examined ini regard to it. 
 
 Mr. Rainles. — The paper is in my hand, ajnd being in my han^d 
 I liave a right to examine as to statements made by the com- 
 misaioneiT un'dea* oathL 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — The commi'ssioner has opened the subject; 
 he is entitled to thie fullest examinatibn, and I presume hie wanits 
 to use the papers for that purpose. 
 
 Witness. — I wish it understood that the commissioner did 
 not open the subject under OiaJth, but only ib a statemenlt to the 
 newspapers. 
 
 By Mr. Eainesi: 
 
 Q. Is the paper a memorandum made of the conversations 
 between you and McCabe ? A. It is substantially ; it ils altogether; 
 I first had a copy of one statement on the back of another piece 
 of paper. 
 
 Q. Was this memorandum made at the time of the oonlversa- 
 tion ? A. On the same day. 
 
 Q. The statement of McCabe to you with regard to members 
 of the fire department extends back over a period of two' years 
 past? A. I thitik longer. 
 
 Q. The statement of McCabe relating to transactions in the 
 fire department among men in the way of the collectiom of moneyi 
 prior to this year? A. Some of them. 
 
 Q. And you maidle a memorandum at the time he made them? 
 A. On the same day. 
 
 Q. And this memorandum made by you is abonit the substance 
 of what he said? A. Yes; it is not all he said, biut it conliainis 
 the points of interest 
 
 Q. For what use did yom make this memjorandiUm? A. Be- 
 cause I wamtied to know if anything wrong hald been done, or was 
 bteing dolie in the fire dtepartment and tly to stbp| it if possible 
 in the future. 
 
us 
 
 Q. Did you make it for your o-mm guidance, or for passing it 
 aver to other persons? A- For my own guidance. 
 
 Q. At what time did you hare the interview with McOabe 
 oontatned on these sheets? A. I think the day following The 
 Press article. 
 
 Q. Did he send for you? A. Noi; he came to my office; he 
 was in the habit of coming there; he came often. 
 
 Q. Were you in the habit of drawing informatioiE from him 
 about the department? A. Yes> sir. i 
 
 Q. On thiis occasion he came ini after The Bress article ap- 
 peared? A. Almost immediately. 
 
 Q. Did you interrogate Mm. in regard toi his knowledge? A. 
 He sat doiwn and talked to me voluntairily; became greatly 
 agitated and greatly disturbed, and very unhappy over the 
 scandal. , 
 
 Q. Did he tell you that he had any personal knowledge of the 
 raising of any money during this last winter? A. He 
 did not. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you he had any personal knowledge of the 
 payment of any money? A. He did not. 
 
 Q. Is there anything in that memorandum which you desire 
 to conceal in this investigation? A. There are several things 
 in ilt I would rather nolt have expressed publicly. 
 
 Q. They relate to the raising of money in previous years for 
 corrupt purposes? A. I don't think this investigation haS' any- 
 thing to do with previous years. 
 
 Q. What you desire to conceal at this time very much that 
 is in that paper relatesi to the raising of money iu previotas 
 yeans? A. I desire td conceal nothing. 
 
 Q. Why do you conceal that paper? A. I am not on cross- 
 examination. J 
 
 Q. I ask you whether, what you desire to exclude from this 
 esamination' is what relates to the raising of money in previous 
 years? A. I will leave that to the committee. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Because of the statement you have made 
 and the mJanner in which you have made it, you leave the com- 
 mittee to infer that MJeCabe was poissesBed of certain informa^- 
 tion connected with this inquiry he desired not to tell,, 
 and, therefore, committed suicide. It may be it was informafioin 
 relating to past years, anid that Ms information would result 
 in the betrayal of comrades. That may have been what he 
 feared, and his reason for committing suicide. It is not fair 
 that a full examination of the facts; leading to your statement 
 sihould not be had, for as it now stands it would be inferred 
 tha.il that statement related to the subject of tMs inquiry. 
 
149 
 
 Q. The last question repeated to the witness? A. I don't 
 know; wliiat lie desired to give out, and I don't fcnow tlilat he 
 deaired tol conceal anything; I hare been some days taking 
 this siort of a statement and to prevent confusion I had these 
 memioarandums; it is not rigiht to cross-examine me on whajt J 
 have not teistlfled' to. 
 
 By Senator O'Connor: , 
 
 Q. We think that it is now protper to inquire wh.ether' in youc 
 conversation with McCabe be admitted of any corrupt or crim- 
 inal practices to previotusi yeaa^s concerning thie flre department? 
 A. I am ready to answer. ^ 
 
 By Mr. Baines: 
 
 iQ. Have yo'u any objectiotosi to my baving that paper? A. 1 
 ■have; it is not my paper; it is the committee's. , 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — ^We can not order bim to give you' that 
 paper. 
 
 Q. Have yo*!! any objection to counsel in this case having the 
 use of that memorandum of conversiations you had with McCabe? 
 A. For the purpose of croes-examining me before I testify, I have. 
 
 Q. For the purpose of examining you? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any objections? A. Yes, isir. 
 
 Q. Is that objection based upon the fact that the matter con- 
 tained in that paper moistly relates to previous! years? A. Yeis; 
 and chiefly because I have been taking statements from, differ^ 
 ent persons and I, do not wish, to bave McCabe's statememtfi 
 confused with any other. 
 
 Q. Yoni had a convensation thie day after the publication oif 
 The Press article with McOabe? A. Yes, .sir, 
 
 Q. You reduced that to writing? A. In substance. 
 
 Q. He stated to you ia that conversation coirrupt transactions 
 of which he had knowledge in previous years? A. He did not 
 state that he had personal knowledge of those comipit trans- 
 actions. 
 
 Q. Were they all previous to 1895? A. He did not at that tiime. 
 
 Q. Have you not recorded on that paper all that was, said? A 
 I have not, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there something there in regard to the payment of $2,500 
 by the firemen a year ago? A There is. 
 
 Q. And McCabe made a statement to yiora with negard to that 
 transaiction for the purpose of influencing tbe passage of a bill 
 a year ago? , , 
 
 (Mr. Robit objected tiiat it was not within tlie scope of the 
 inquiry.) , 
 
150 
 
 Senator O'CSonnor, — This is in' regard to a statement made 
 voluntarily by witness, and I think is; piropeir. 
 
 Q. Go on and tell all that McOa,l}e told you he knew ablout 
 that transaction a year ago, thenaising of the $2,500. 
 
 (The witness read from memorandhimi) 
 
 A. McCabe said that three years ago $2,500 was given to 
 McManus, a member of Assembly from Senator Plunkett's dis- 
 trict by assessing firemen $3 each;' th'e legislative committee 
 were Assistant Foreman Quinn, of Engine 18; Foreman ClifEon-d, 
 of Engine 22; and Engineer Eeagan, of 44. 
 
 Q. Is there anything in reg'ard to raising am assessment of $25 
 during the past year in that paper? A. Ifothing whatever. 
 
 Q. Anything in regard to raisiiig another corrupltion fund 
 previous to this year in that paper? A. There is. 
 
 Q. State it? A. In 1893, in January, every officer paid $25 for 
 an increase of salary; Bradley, foreman of Hook and Lqjdder 17, 
 received the money and took it to Senator Ahteiam. 
 
 Q. Go on; iia there anything else relating to years previous to 
 1895? A, I think not. 
 
 Q. Will you swear tha.t there is not in that paper, after look- 
 ing at it? A. There is. 
 
 Q. Go on? A. Last year the Pinkeys raised $2,500 and gave 
 it to Cab Eeilley, bnt had nothing in return for it. 
 
 Q. That association called the Pinkeys is an associatioin of the 
 fire department below the grade of officers? A. Yes. 
 
 By Senator O'Connor: 
 Q. Who is Cab Eeilley? A. I don't know. 
 
 By Mr. Eaines: 
 
 Q. Did McOabe tell you who brought thlalt to Cab Eeilley? 
 A. I don't thikik he did. 
 
 By Mn. Eoot : 
 
 Q. Did. he tell you that Eeagan stated to Eeilley? A. I do 
 not think he did; it is nott in the memorandum. 
 Q. Is Eeilley a lobbyist? A. I so understand it. 
 
 By Mr. Eaines: 
 
 Q, Any other corrupt transactions which he told you of in 
 previous years on that paper? A. I thiink not. 
 
 Q. There is some details of transactions on that paper which 
 yoii have not read? A. Yes, sir. 
 
151 
 
 Q. What relates to previous years I want to get by itself? 
 A. Yes? 
 
 Q. Eead all the paper that relates to previous years? A'. The 
 legislative committee of the firemen's association that is called 
 The Pinkeys vras composed of Clifford, of Engine 22; Reagan, of 
 Eingine 44; and CroTvley, of Engine 34; this committee has been 
 in existence three years, and if Ihey are made to tell the history 
 of their organization, including what action has been taken as 
 to llegislationi, the whole stoiry ought to come out; in 1893 every 
 officer paid $25 for an increase of salairy; Bradley, foreman 
 of Hook and Ladder 17, received the money and took it to 
 Senialjor AheaitQ; be siure and tell Oroker and let him be 
 protected in telling the truith; f6,000 waja raised for thisi bill 
 amd put in the banks; last year The PinkeySi raisied $2,500 and 
 gave it to Cab Eeilley audi got nothing in return; three years 
 ago the firemen gave |2,500 to Assemblyman McManus, of 
 Plunkett's district; the committee were Quinn, of Engine No. 18; 
 Reagan, of 44; and Clifford, of 22. 
 
 Q. Relate all that McCabe told you that relates to this year? 
 A. It is a matter of common talk am.ong the offlcers and between 
 themselves aud they made no secret about money having been 
 raised and put in the bank to pass the officers' bill; they have 
 told me a great many things which I could not repeat, but if 
 there is a thorough investigartion the tPutii will come out; Chief 
 Croker and Gricquel refused to pay; Oroker will tell the tmith if 
 put under oath; be sure and see Croker and let him know he 
 will be protected in telling the truth; $6,000 was raised and is 
 in three banks; Bums reports the officers' bill will become a law 
 in spite of the exposure. 
 
 Q. Ts thait all there is recorded by you of your conversation' 
 with Mcdabe? A. I think it is ajll but a few little scrapa 
 
 Q. Anything relating to the subject-matter of this iavestigia- 
 tion? A. No. 
 
 Q. C5an you rraniember anything McCabe told you that you 
 didn't put down? A. I think that is the isubstance of what 
 he told me regarding these; chaiiges. 
 
 Q. McCabe pretended to have knowledge of matters going on 
 this year? A. I think he slaid it was a common! report. ^ 
 
 Q. He didn't give you the names of anybody but Croker and 
 Gicquel? A. He gave thte names of the officers of the asiso- 
 ciation. 
 
 Q. I mean in regard to this year? A. I do not think he 
 did. _ ' , 
 
 Q. He said Crokeir would tell the truth if put on^ ithe stand? 
 A. He was the only one spiokeni of in that way. 
 
152 
 
 Q. Outside of thiat, did h,e give yoni the name of amy pemsom? 
 A. I do nott think he did. ' 
 
 Q. He did not tell jm who had Held any money this year? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Consequently, he did not disdloise ajiy informatioin to you 
 that was a direct aiccusatiom against any pensom? A. No, sip; 
 except when he stated that it wias known) througtOTit the force 
 that they had paid: 
 
 Q. He didn't give you the names or tell yom he knew the 
 niames of any pensom ivho had paid? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. But that it was a matter of common report, and that was 
 the extent of Ms knowledge? A. I think the whole statement 
 was based! upon what hlad beeni told liim. 
 
 Q. Witih regard to previous' yeiars, he did make a full states 
 ment with regiard to the details of bribery? A. Yee;; more full. 
 
 Q. Did McCabe tell you anything that implicated him with 
 regard to any of these tranaactionisi of this winter? A. Nothing 
 a,t all. 
 
 Q. Wheni did McOabte cease to be connected with the fire 
 department? A. I don't remember the date'. 
 
 Q. Some of these tranisactioinis of previous years were duTing 
 the holding of Ms office of cMief of the fire department? A. <^ 
 could not tell you without examination. 
 
 Q. And with regard to these transactions of previous years, 
 did he say hfe had some personal knowledge? A. He did uot. 
 
 Q. He gave the names of persons and disclosed th.e details 
 of matteTsi? A. I think hie told me lie h^id been' told so' and 
 so, and I' hlad been trying to secure the name of the man who 
 told him. 
 
 Q. In this paper yora domft istate that McOabe gave the name 
 of any person as having told Mm any particular tMng as 
 iPegaa'ds thei transactioMs of thisi winter? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. In tMis papery do you? A. I don't loiow as I doi; I think 
 not in the piaper. • ' 
 
 Q. So that McOabe did not turm infotmer with regard to 
 amy of thie transactions of tMS winter? A. He did not, so far 
 as I heard ot knew, or about aliything else. ^ 
 
 Q. You hlad no information about McOabe being impliicia,ted in 
 the! raising of a fund? A. I never imagined he was implicaiteid. 
 
 Q. As to transacti'ons of previous years, you idon't know 
 whiethier he was implicated or not? A. I have no moire Isnowl- 
 edge than you have. • 
 
 The WitneB'9. — Yqu asked me if I hadi put dowm the name 
 of amy person he mentioned Ibo me as having told him? 
 
 Mr. Eainea — Yes. . ! 
 
153 
 
 The Wiiikess. — ^He didn't claim to have aay persomial knowl- 
 edge withi negard td this matter. He told me nothing except 
 what had been told htm. 
 
 Q. In regiard to any tramsiactioin' recdrded ini that paper, did 
 McOabe claim to h© implicated ,tai it op have any ipersonal 
 knowledge of it? A. He did not. j 
 
 Q. And he didn't give you the name of any person throuighorat 
 that paper as having told him ainything? A. Not throiughoTit 
 the papew; he did give me one name; he siaid he had met Groker 
 after! making this istateim^t and. that Oroker would tell the 
 tmth. 
 
 Q. Aside from that, McCabe had] told .yora nothing which con- 
 stitated him an ioformer? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. He had no personal knowled^ge which wonld be injurious 
 to anybojdy, so far as you know? A. He did not sslj he had. 
 
 Q. He hadi none that you know otf ? A. None that I know of. 
 
 Q. Will you explain what yoto mieant when you said that 
 bielcause he had Irish Mood in his veinsi he could not tram ia- 
 foraner? A. Because he hadn't bteem examined by me-; he had 
 made a voluntary statement for the purpoise of giving me the 
 mieamel lof ge'tting at the truth, and he was not am informer. 
 
 Q. Why do you, after the man is dead, impute to Mm a guilty 
 Imowledge and talk about his fear of stating his knowledge upon 
 the witness sitand, if am his lifetime he never; intiimjated to you 
 that he had any knowledge. 
 
 (Mr. Root objected on the ground that the withess had mot 
 stated the matters embraced! in thtei question.) 
 
 Q. John MoCabe didn't tell you a single statement any person 
 made to him except the one CroEer brought to hun after the 
 publication of this article.? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Why do you, from your mind, draw thte inference that he 
 had been trusted by his assiociates and may lie in his memioiry 
 now because he had committed suicide? 
 
 (Mr. Root objected.) 
 
 Q. Why do you say that McOabe had been trusted by his asso- 
 ciates? A. On his statement to me that he was told these 
 things by his fellows. 
 
 Q. He never communicated to you thte name of a peirson who 
 told him anything? A. I didn't ask him. 
 
 Q. And you don't Imow what those names were? A. Exicept 
 as I noted them down. ' 
 
 Q. Did hte undertake to tell you that he derived those from 
 any persom? A. He didn't name any person. 
 
 Q. So there is no ei^idence he had been trusted by his aisso- 
 ciates? AL Tesj it la a matter of common talk among the ofllcers 
 
 F. 20 
 
154 
 
 < 
 and between themselyes, and they make no secriet about money 
 being raised and put iln bamik to pass tbie officers' bill; tbey told 
 me a greart many tWngs wbicb I could not Trepeat, but if thfere 
 is a thoixmgb investigation the truth, will come out; on tihat I 
 base my information. 
 
 Q. Tliis coujinoi'! report that a great many persons had knowl- 
 edge of: do yon mean to say that that was a good reason to 
 operate on the mSkid of a man to induce him to commit suicide? 
 A. Is that a pro]>er question? 
 
 Q. At the time you got this statement from McOabe to whom 
 did you lirst counnunicate it? A, I think to this committee this 
 morning. 
 
 Q. To Avhom did you first communicate it? A. I think I told 
 Mr. Boot. 
 
 Q. TVlien? A. Shortly before this meeting that McOabe had 
 knowledge, and that I had asked him to oome to him and tell 
 what he knew; the substiance of this paper I never communi- 
 cated imtil now, and didn't intend to communicate it at all. 
 
 Mr. Root. — I want to call the attention of the committee to 
 the fact that I did not bring John McOabe^s name into this case. 
 Mr. Raines brought it in. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — Your witness on the stand brought it in; prob 
 ably by arrangement with you. 
 
 Mr. lloot. — 1 reply that that is whWly unfounded. The counsel 
 asked this witness what John McOabe said to him. It was first 
 mentioned by the counsel in his interrogation of tbe witness 
 upon the stand. 
 
 Q. Did you inform 'Mr. Root of any portions of the statement 
 that McOabe made to yon? A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Why didn't you; you had this investigation under dis- 
 cussion? A. I was not (ounsel for the defense. 
 
 Q. Did yolu think that McOabe hiad the defense? A. You hlave 
 no right to t>sk that. 
 
 Q. You thought McOabe's statement was valuable to the 
 Senators accused? A. I meant newspapers; I was not counsel 
 for McOabe and therefore did not cotmmunicate all I knew to 
 his counsel; I do not mean) the Seniators were on tihe defense. 
 
 Q. Did you talce any pains to communicate to thie committee 
 the statement of IMcCabe's? A. I did not. 
 
 Q, Did you talie any pains to communicate to the sergeant-at- 
 arms of the committee the name of McOabe? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or to anybody except Root? A. I did not; I did not know- 
 any other counsel in the matter. 
 
 Q. Did you send again for McOabe after the taking his state- 
 ment? A. I 6aw hun. 
 
155 
 
 Q. Did ycra ask Mm to eecure certain infoinnatioiii or to go and 
 do something in th.€t lime of investigation? A. He told me he 
 was snre Oiroker conld tell the truth and to go and) see him. 
 
 Q. He told you ho v/ould tell the truth? A. Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. Did you coiumunicate that information to Boot? A. I ma/ 
 have done it within a day of two; I don't know. 
 
 Q. Is that the end of youir communaieatioii with McCabe? A. 
 Tlhiait was; I was going to iSiend my bby for Mm the day he died; 
 and if I had he would have been here now in my opiMon. 
 
 Q, So far as you know there was nothing in all thesie trans- 
 actions that materially affected McOabe; nothing except a knjowl-» 
 edge of Ihose things if he was obliged to tell the'm on his 
 associates. 
 
 Q. If yolii' had sent for him, you were going to tell Mm that 
 he would not be drawn into the InveBtigatiom? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Why do you think he would be here now? A, Because 
 he was a very sensitive, high-strung man, and did not want 
 to be called. 
 
 By Senator O'Connor: 
 
 Q. As I understand it, he didn^ want to be called to swear 
 to statements maide to hinn by his own friends? A. THat ia 
 it exactly. 
 
 By Mr. Biaines:: 
 
 Q. Did the subject otf MoOabe being called as a witness come 
 up between you and Mm? A. Not at all.- 
 
 Q. So, if he had no apprehension on any subject, hte didn't 
 get it from, anything that passed between him and you? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. You took no means to bring Mm to the witness stand? A, 
 NotMng whatever; he knew Boot; Boot had been his counsel 
 anid I said, "You had better go and tell Mm' what you know;" 
 and he started off to do it. 
 
 Q. Yon have learned from Boiot the conversation between 
 him and McOabe? A. I don't itMnk I have. 
 
 Q. All matters that you deemed pertinent and all persons 
 whom you fonnd having information that was pertinent yon 
 have given the names to the gentlemen on. the othier side? A. 
 No, sir; gentlemen have sent names to, me and 'asked if they 
 be requested to report somewhere; they first sent Sheffield'iS'. 
 
 Q. You took statements, and so far as yon discovered material 
 matters yolu gave them; to Boot; I want to get at the fact that 
 the commissioners have not tried! to conceal anything? A. We 
 waoti to op^ ^e door. 
 
156 
 
 Q. Youi are willinig to fuirnisihj to the ooimniittee, as well as to 
 the OOTiniael of Mr. Quigg, any informatiom? A. Anybody that 
 hias a right to it, because I told the mem, if these thamgis aire 
 tPue, isomebody will hare to be puniahed; if you tell the truth, 
 your puuiBlhrneint will be light, and if you lie, you will reoeiT© 
 worse p(unishim,'ent; I want the tjnuth oir nothing; the oommis- 
 sdonena will fight like beare for their ©ubs, for thieir firemen, 
 when innocent, and will punish' if guility. 
 
 Q. Youi have done all you could to aid the invesitigiation!? 
 A. Yes, isir. 
 
 Q^ Youi hare stated all you caire to? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Committee took a receais untU 2.30 o'clock. 
 
 AFyiEE EECESS 
 
 ThiO Cih|airmani. — Is Oommisisioneiri LaG^rjange hieire? 
 
 Mr. Root. — No. Mr. Raines told me he didn't want himi any 
 more J and, after the adjournment, I told him, om the whole, OC 
 wouldn't trouble Tiim: ib come baJck. ' , 
 
 Mr. Raines. — It would be very appropriate if Mr. CSrokesn 
 could notw tell his story. 
 
 Daniel J. Oonwiay, caJlted as a witness, being duly swom^ 
 testified as follows: 
 
 Direct exiamination; by Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. Conway, you are a fireman in this city? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. And to what company do you belong? A. Engine Com- 
 pany No. 8. 
 
 Q. Wheire is thie engjne-hiouse? A. Na 165 West Fifty-finsit 
 street. j 
 
 Q. Whlei'e do you reside? A. No. 301 East Hfty-flfth street 
 
 Q. How long hiave yoiu been in the departmemt? A. Nine 
 years in the departmen,t, the 7thi of next May. 
 
 Q. Who are the olfioers of your company? A. Well, there 
 is only one offlcer there at present; his name is Assistant Fore- 
 man WilMam H. Jones. 
 
 Q. Has any officer been detailed there? A. Yes> sir; thero 
 have been several. 
 
 Q. Who is on detail there now? A. Assistant Foreman Jones; 
 there is no othw officer. 
 
 Q. Has Assistant Foreman James J. Smith beeini there this 
 spring? A. Yes, air. 
 
157 
 
 Q. In what eapjaqlty? A. As officer commtafliding tie compamy. 
 
 Q. Detailed? A. Detailed; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Wiat company is Simitli an officer? A, Hook and. Ladder 
 No. 2. * 
 
 Q. Thart) is tlie company at Fiftieth street and Lexington ave- 
 nue, is it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. "VMiien was Smith detailed there to yotur company? A. Well, 
 he has been detailed there on several occasions ofE and on for 
 three months; twice a week for three months. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have amy conversation with Mm about the 
 bill for the incirease of officers' salaries? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What was the conversation about? A. Well, at the start 
 id the conversation, it was the morning that the amendment to, 
 the Pavey bill was'put on in the Senate; that was the morning 
 of the conversation. 
 
 Q. The morning — ? A. That it appeared in print in the 
 newspapers. 
 
 Q. The publication of the amendment? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What amendment do you refer to? A. The amendment 
 giving the officers an increase in salary. 
 
 Q. Now, tell the conversation? A. Weil, the conversation 
 was — he started the conversation thlat moimiing; he said when 
 he came in, "I suppose now we are all on the back oif the book;" 
 he says, "But you will all be with us before any length of time 
 transpiresi; " nothing was said for aj few minutes, until after 
 roll-ciall hadi taken place; the men to go to breakfaist had went, 
 and thoise mem that had ixf stay in HKe hionse — and I was down 
 in the ciellar attending to duties that had to be gone through, 
 filling my lamp, and other duties that had to be gone through, 
 when the conversaition started in earnest; I asked him — I said, 
 " That was a very funny thing, that they would put an amend- 
 ment on our bill after it was passed the Assembly with such a 
 ha'ndsome majority;" he saidi, "Well, it's our only chanoe;" I 
 said, "How d'oi you mean?" "Well," he said, "if it don't go 
 through this y«ar why, of course, it can't go thirough fop 10 
 years, accoirdiing to the Constitution ; " so he says another thing, 
 " This bill of yonr's is stuck in the cities committee in the Senate ; "' 
 I says, "That is very funny that it is stuck there;" "Well," he 
 says, "you know why it isi srtioking there;" I Says, "No, sir; t 
 don't; ^' "Well," he saysi, "yora Icnow very well tfhat all those! 
 people are not up there for their health, and they want the 
 ' necessa,Ty;'" "Well," I said, "five cents of the necessary they' 
 will never get Irom me;" he says, "Well, there it will stick;" 
 Isloi onle ward borrolwed ajnother; it went on until he said, "We 
 have $10,000," he says, " already placed." 
 
168 
 
 By tihle Ohiadrmani: 
 
 Q. Who said that? A. Assistant FoKem^ James Smith; he 
 said, "Well, it will stilck there, unless you people comg up;" I 
 says, "I don't believe tlia.t we will come up; if they doi it will be 
 unknown to me; " so one word led on to anotlier, until he said, 
 "Well, YOTO will be with uis before very long;" "I don't thinik," I 
 said); "Well," 'he says, " you will ;" I said, " No, -sir; we will not;" he 
 says, "Well, you are a lot of damned fools; that is all I have 
 got to say about it; " so that was about the whole amount of the 
 conversation; he says, "Further," he says, "the only thing," he 
 saySi "if the worst come toi worst, is,- wipi will carry yoiu 
 throiugh;" "CBjrry who through?" saya I; he isays, "Why, yoia;" 
 I saM, "You don't have to dioi ianything for us; we wilJ doi all 
 ouirf oiwn btasines's;" he said, "The only thing that iis^bothering 
 me is thait yon people may be thrown off the bill;" that was 
 abolut the giist of the convensiationL 
 
 Crosisi-examinatiom by Mr. Eiainies: 
 
 Q. Wheni did you talk with anybody about bteing a witness 
 here flnst? A. When idid I tailk with anyboidy about being a 
 witness first? 
 
 Q. Yesi? A. Tohday. 
 
 Q. With. whom? A. With Fireman Sheridani and Fireman 
 Ward. 
 
 Q. Where? A. On our way down here, the elevated road. 
 
 Q. And, previoiuis to that time, you hiadn't any knowledge that 
 yo^i weire to coime here? A. No, sir; I wa® in hiojpes that H 
 woiuldii't come here. J 
 
 Q. And to whom did you repor't this conversiatiioni? A. 1 
 didn't report it to anybody, sir. 
 
 Q. You told somebddy abtofut it, before yofu' were summoned? 
 A. TSTo, sir; I did not. 
 
 Q. Well, hoiw did you come to be sulmmjolned here? A. That 
 iH more than I can tell. 
 
 Q. When were you sierved? A. I wa® served to-day, at 11 
 o'clock. f 
 
 Q. And yofu never have told thisi conversatioln, or anythimg 
 about it to anyone? A. No^ sir; I have not ^ 
 
 Q. Befioire you were summoned? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Neven been examined, questioned about it by anyone? " 
 A. By no one; no, sir. 
 
 Q. Yota told it to other fl.remen? A. No, sir; I have not 
 
 Q. Oaii't account for your being called here as a witness 
 in this matfceP? A. No, sir; I can not 
 
 Q. How the informationj leaked that you hiadi talked with 
 Mr, Smith? A. Yes, sir; I am really sunprised. 
 
159 
 
 Q. You WaTien't caoised! anybody to bring yota iiere? A. No, 
 sir; I hiaTe noit. 
 
 Q. You bave sent no cotomnnicatioin to anybody, either directly 
 or indirectly? A. Directly op indirectly, I hare not. 
 
 Q. But yoiui knew wM* you werei coming here for? A. Whfen 
 I was suimnoned; yes. 
 
 Q. Whia summoned yoiu? A. I was isummoned by Fireman 
 Harris, a member attacihed to Engine Company No. 8, thiis 
 momiag. i , 
 
 Q. And yo|u told Mm wblat you knew? A. No, sir; I did not 
 Q. TMsl conTiersaition waisi ati wiiat date? A. It was th!e 
 morning thiat the amendment appeared in print, in the daily 
 papeas. , ; 
 
 Q. The aJmemdinent as to the salary biUl, the officers' salary 
 araendmeratl? A. Yes^ sir. i 
 
 Q. The morning that it was repoirted to the Senate? A. The 
 morning iihat it appeared in print, in the papens. 
 
 Q. And, at th!at time, did you bring up the subject to Foren 
 mani Smith!, or did te biiing up the subject first? A. He did; 
 yes, sir. , 
 
 Q. You) and hie were good Mends? A. Yes', air. 
 Q. Always haye been? A. Yes, ,sir. / 
 
 Q. There never has been any difficulty whatsoever between 
 yom and hilmi? A. 'No, sir; nfeverj hiad any difficulty. 
 Q. Neverj hiad :ainy wondb with Mim? A. No^ sir. 
 Q. You never have siaid to anybody aniything detrimental to 
 himi? A. No, sir; I hJaive not. 
 
 Q. Was there anyone else present when yom and Smith had 
 tJiSis conver'sation? A. Yesi, sir; there was. 
 Q. Who? A. Fireman SheridanL 
 Q. In the cellar o|f the engine-hbuse? A. Yes, siir. 
 Q. Well, you were a little bit angry over the amendment being 
 put on your salary bill? A. Yes, sit; I was. 
 
 Q. And you went at Smith that morning, didn't you? A. I 
 did not; no, sir. 
 
 Q. Whfeni you were ib the cellar you say the conversation com- 
 menced in earnest; you said that it was a funny thing that they 
 shonld put that amendment on your bill? A No, sir; that was 
 not going at him. 
 
 Q. You brought up the subject? A. No', sir; I did not. 
 Q. Not at that time? A. No, sir; I did not. 
 Q. Not at that time? A. I had business in' the cellar at that 
 time. 
 
 Q. T^Tien he came there did you introduce the subject in Hie 
 cellar? A. No, sir; I did not 
 
160 
 
 Q. What did lie say before tfaiaJtl? A. He intraduced it in the 
 cellar; he came Into the oellar and introduced it hiimiself., 
 
 Q. How? A. By saying there was noi need of playing; ''you 
 will have to be with ns." 
 
 Q. That, I titought, was said before roll-call? A. Before roll- 
 call; there was a few words I said. 
 
 Q. In isaibstance (the same thing; was said in. the cellar? 
 A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And yOTi siald it was a funny thing to put that amendmienit 
 on \ our bill? A. It was; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And he said the bill was stuck in committee? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. AM that he said about the money ih the convensatiton was 
 that "We have |10,000?" A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he maJke any detailed statemeiit as to where it was, or 
 who had it? A. No, sir; he did not. 
 
 Q. Or when it was raised? A. No, sir; he did mot. 
 
 Q. He only said, "We have |10,000?" A Yes, sir; that's just 
 what he said. 
 
 Q. And he said to you that the bill would stick in the com- 
 mittee until yon fellows come up? A. T'ntil we "materalized;" 
 yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, was it "materialized" or "come up;" what was the 
 wotrd he did use? A. Well, until we come up with the " dough." 
 
 Q. Thait was the very expres^otn? A. That isi a slanig phrase, 
 I suppose, meaning motney. 
 
 Q. Was that the language he used? A. Thart is tbe words he 
 used; yeis, siir. 
 
 Q. He didn't say " come up/' nor " materialize;" but " come up 
 with the dough?" A. That was it, entirely; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And he said, "You'll be with us before long?" A. Yes, 
 sir — oh, he said, "You will have to be with us." 
 
 Q. And that yon didn't like? A. He said, "Well, we will 
 carry yon through; pei-haps we will, but I am aifraid that you 
 people perhaps may be thrown off the bill." 
 
 Q. Assistant Poireman Smith is connected with Hook and Lad- 
 der No. 2; where is the engine-houisie? A On the southeast 
 corner of Fiftieth street and Lexington avenue. 
 
 Q. Corner of Fiftieth street and Lexington avemue? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who were the otiher m:embeps of your company? A Well, 
 there is — 
 
 Q. At this time? A. At this time. 
 
 Q. Yes? A. The same members that aire memibers otP it now. 
 
 Q. The salme? A. The same; exactly. 
 
 Q. Was Sheridan present during all that convemsartion? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
161 
 
 Redirect exatmiuation by Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. Did Smith, tell you who was handling tlie rmoney in Albamy V 
 A. He said that a man by the name of Mr. Looi Payn was hanidlling 
 the moiiey. 
 
 Becrdsis-examinatiioii by Mir. Eain^: 
 
 Q. Jusit ait wba/t paint of tihe conrerisaition did he mentioai 
 Mr. Payn"*® name? A. Well, I couldn't say. 
 
 Q. wihen be told yoTi about it being stuck in the cooounittee, 
 or when hiei told you abiourt th.e amendment being pnt on? A. 
 I couldn't S'Sff where that was stuck in. 
 
 Q. Yoju coiuld not? A. Ho, sir; I coiuld not. 
 
 Q. Can't yoiu telli what you were talking about at- that time? 
 A. No, air; I couldn't really say. 
 
 Q. Do yoiu recollect tihe exact foirm of the question: oir th.e 
 answer; did yoiu ask bim anything about who was taJdng care 
 of mattens at Albany? A. No, sir; I did not. 
 
 <i. Did he say Mr. Ixm Payn was in cbarge of their amend- 
 ment at Albany? A. He didn't say that be waS' in cbarge 
 o£ it; but be said that toe was the man that would bandle tbe 
 monetary oonisideratiom, and tbat Mr. Piatt was the man tbat 
 ordered them to do this. > 
 
 Q. Tbat is, oirdered this amendtment put on? A. No; oirdeired 
 them to go ahead and it woiuld goi through. 
 
 Q. Ordered wbo! toi go ahead? A. The officers of the fire 
 department; their association. 
 
 Alfred E. Shteridan, called as a witness, being duly sworn, 
 testlifled as follows': 
 
 Direct examination by Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. Sbenidain, you are a firemani in: this city? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Wiheine do yoiu live? A. I live in 960 Second avenue. 
 
 Q. What company are yon connected with? A. Enginfe Com- 
 pany No. 8, 16.5 East Mfiy-flrst street. 
 
 Q. The same company tbat Conway, who hias just testiflpd, 
 belongs to? .V. Ye®, sir. 
 
 Q. Do j\cm Ivnow James J. Rmitb assistant foreman? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you present at a oonyersatiom in the engine-honse of 
 No. 8, at whi'cb Smiths referred to' Hie bill to increase officers' 
 sialarieis? A. Yps, sir. 
 
 Q. Woni't you tell the conyersatiotn ; bow it was and how it 
 happenedl? A. It was thie morning after 'the amendment bad 
 F. 21 
 
162 
 
 been placed on our bill ; he clappied' Ms hianda and said, " Well, 
 boys, I aim gJiad yora are witJi us;" when I asked hami what he 
 mieant, hie said that their ajmenidment had been tagged cm tO' 
 Oiixr bill ; I said it was a shame for them to. interfere with otur 
 bill, as they were only raiseid in 1893 and were getiting a; pretty 
 good salaxiy, I thought; that they had a light to leave us alone 
 umtil sudh times as we got onr increase and they could look out 
 then for themselves; -m the meantime, I had went upstairs' and 
 changed my clothes, ajnd went downstairs for to help clean 
 up the htomse, starting m the cellar; he said that for a monieyi 
 conisideratioin thei^ bill was to bfe passed; I asked himi how 
 much it was; he said |] 0,000; I asked him who was furthering 
 the interests of his bill ; he said Lou Payn; that he had not 
 made a move until the man that told us to go ahead with 
 ouTis told them' to do the same; I asked Mm who that was, and 
 he said, "Thomas C. Piatt;" I told Mm I didn't believe hhn; 
 he siaid, " Do you mean to insinuate that I am ai liar? " I said, 
 " ISTo; I don't mean to tell you aniytMug, only that I don't believe 
 you;" he then told me that he idlidb't want to have any more 
 conversaitioin with me, and I told him I didn't waait to have 
 anything more with hun; om March 11th, betweenj 6 and 6.30 
 p. m., while I was on the evenlihig watch, Foireman Smith and 
 Eugineer Oouway were having a conversation with reference 
 to the salary bill; what it was, I didn't hear, only — 
 
 By Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. WTiat date? A. March 11th; I think it was ou a Monday; 
 he told him — he asked him — he says, "Do you insinuate thai 
 I am a liar, the s'ajnc as tMs man called me in the cellar, tlic 
 other morning; " so 1 turned around and I said to' him, " I ne\fv 
 called you a liiar;" and he said that I did; I told him I did not: 
 he says, "You told me that Tom Piatt never anthoirized us to ix« 
 on with that amendment on the bill ; " 1 told hiim, " Yes ; I said so, 
 and I believed so still; " he asked me could I provo it; I told him. 
 " Yes; " I told him that I had a letter in my pocla't with Thoimas 
 n Piatt's name .signed to it, stating that there was nothing of 
 the kind, simply for the puirposf to draw liim out; IVo then turned 
 viround and started in foi- to use disrpspcctfu] InuguMiic which 
 I 'don't waJnt to state here; and siaid tlmt if Ihe amendto^it was 
 taken off the bill that he would iiialv(^ it warm foi" ns; that is 
 the substance of it. 
 
 By Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. Did he tell you how miicli the' officei-s had- pul up? A. H^ 
 said .f30 aipdepe was about th^ p'vice, ;is far as r cou'Ul imdersUnirl 
 
 Mm, • ., . 
 
163 
 
 Q. Did he say anytliing to yoiu about Payn? A, He said that 
 if we didn't take aind put up oui- " dough " that the amendtmjent 
 would stay in the coimmjifttee of cities until the last day of the ses- 
 sion, and it would be kilMd; I told him, as far as I was concerned, 
 I wouldn't put up five cents; that if it was necessary I would put 
 up |25 to try and defeat the bill. 
 
 Q. Did he say anything to you about Payn; not "paying" but 
 "Payn;" about Lou Payn? A. He said that Mr. Payn was tlie 
 man that was interested in their behalf; he was acting for 
 Mr. Piatt. 
 
 Ooss-examieation by Mr. Eaines : 
 
 Q. The conversatilon between yoiu and Mr. Smith was when? 
 A. Well, the starting off of it wasi on the morniiig, as I said 
 before, after thie amendment h^d been tagged on to our bill. 
 
 Q. The first conversation you had with him? A. What is 
 that? 
 
 Q. The first conversation which you had? A. Thaifc was the 
 first talk. 
 
 Q. The morning after the amendment hald been put on the bill 
 and had been reported in tbe newspapers? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And then, at that time, he said that they were glad that 
 .thley were with you? A. Yes, sir. . 
 
 Q. And you were indignant? A. Well, not to any great extent; 
 no. 
 
 Q. You siaid it was a shame? A. Yes, sir; I said it was' a shame. 
 
 Q. And then, give me exactly what he siaid then? A. Will T 
 what? 
 
 Q. Give me exactly what he said? A. When do you mean? 
 
 Q. "Wien you said it was a shame ? A. He asted mie then was 
 I againist tihem receiving their increase; I told him no; but that 
 in '93 they had got their increas*^; and we didin't interfere with 
 them; I Avanted to know why they interfered with nis; why they 
 didn't give us a chance to get our increase and then go and 
 turn around and look for theirs afterward. 
 
 Q. Go on ? A. He then said that unless we went in wMi thfem 
 we ■wwildn't gpt a cent: the bill would stay in the committee of 
 cities till the last day, when the bill would be killed. 
 
 Q. I am asking you for this first conversation? A. Yes; the 
 first conversation; T am giviing it to you. 
 
 Q. Go on with the rest of it? A. And thiat, if we didn't put 
 up our money with them, he would see that the bill was killed; 
 so I told him that ais far as I was colnicemed', I wouIdnTifc 
 put up five cents; but that I would put up ,f35 ih order to defeat 
 the measure all the way through. 
 
164 
 
 Q. That was the first conversation? A. That was the first 
 coBA-ersation; in the cellar. 
 
 Q. That preceded the conTersation of March 11th, how many 
 days? A. Well, I told you that wias the mornling — I think it 
 was the Monday mornlnig — or, a* least, the Wednesday moim- 
 ing that the conversation took place; it was the mortoing after 
 the amendment had Ween tagged onto onr bill. 
 
 Q. Now, have you told all that was said in that conversiatiioh 
 about money? A. Well, he said that they had $10,000 up, but 
 Mr. I'ayn was the man that was working for the interest of the 
 bill, for Thomas C. Piatt. 
 
 Q. Now, that was all of that first conversation? A. That wa« 
 all of that first conversation. 
 
 Q. WToy dildn't jou tell it on your direct examination as part 
 of the first conversation? A. I told it all the way through. 
 
 Q. Just thle same as you now tell it? A. Yes, sir; there w;)'s 
 only two conversation? held between us. 
 
 Q. Now, you go ou and tell us the second conversation? A. 
 The second conversation was on the evening of March 11th. 
 
 Q. Yes? A. It was only a oonversatioui with Etigineer (3onway. 
 
 Q. The first convfrsatiou, the first time, was with you, in the 
 presence of Conway? A. Y^es, sir. 
 
 Q. And the next time it was with Oonway, in yonr presence? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Go on and tell that conversation? A. He asked — -the 
 oonversation tbat he had with Oonway was in reference to 
 thje bill, and he says to Oonway, "You imsinnate that I am a 
 liar, the same as this man told me in the cellar the other 
 moEning?" theni I came up to him, and I says, "No; I never 
 told you) anytihing of the kind;'" I says, "Wliat I did tell yoiu 
 was that I didn't believe yon, and I believe it still;"' he then 
 asked] m0 if I had any proof of it, and I said, "Yes; I had a 
 letter in my pocket, signed by Thomas 0. Piatt;" then he started 
 in to abiise me. 
 
 Q. What did he say? A. What did he say? 
 
 Q. Yesi? A. Well, I will have to use somo pretty rough 
 language. 
 
 Q. What? A. Well, I will hiivo to use some pretty rough 
 language. 
 
 Q. Well, we won't taJte iwigh language; leave that out; there 
 was some profane Ijiugnaige? A. Yes, sir; profane language. 
 Q. Indecent epithets? A. Yes, siir. 
 
 Q. Leiaiving those out, goi on and tell what was said? A. He 
 saidi that if the bill wais taken off — or, at least, the am-end- 
 mient wasi taken off o^ir bill, that he would — of coiui-s.e, I don't 
 want to use the language' that he used that time — he would 
 
165 
 
 make — I will say tihat hie would make it very wairm for u»; 
 liie then walked out of the door, went around to thfe truck, 
 diainged Ms clotlies, and came back again. 
 
 Q. Is ttoait aill of thiait second comyersiation? A, That is, unless 
 you peimilit me to use the langiuage that he used. 
 
 Q. Thaii is all, hut thie proifane or indecent lamiguage? A. 
 Yas, sir; that is all. 
 
 Q. Where wias it that somethitag was said about putting up 
 yoiur "doiugh?" A. That was in the cellar. 
 
 Q. The first conveTsatiota'? A. Yes, isir. 
 
 Q. Youi pfut that in the second conversation, when you told 
 it biefoire? A. 'No, sdn; I did not. 
 
 Q. Well, I was writing at the time, and I got it down in 
 thie secotnd; is not, tha± the fact, that you put the "dough" 
 miatter into the seooiid comveiteiatioin? A. No, sir; I did uot. 
 
 Q. Didn't you say that the remark, "If you didn't put up 
 your dough that the bSll would stay in committee until the 
 last day of the session," was in the conversation of March 11th? 
 A. That was in the cellar. 
 
 Q. The first conversation? A. The first oomversation. , 
 
 Q. Why didn't you telli th'at on your direct examiniation ? A. 
 I did teiU it. ' , 
 
 Q. In relation to 'the first oonversatiion? 
 
 The Ohaalrman. — The record willl .show. ,^ 
 
 Mr. Baines. — I know; and I took notes. 
 
 Q. It shbluld have been put in the flret conversation, then, 
 when youi have, related it? A. I have related it; that isn't my 
 fault, if you have made the miistake. ^ 
 
 Q. Yiou said Payn was interested in their behalf? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he siay anything more about Payn? A. That was all; 
 thiat wais all the oonversationi that I heard him say, that Mr. 
 Payn was wolrking in the interest of the bill for Mr. Piatt. 
 
 Q. Did he say anything then aibout Payn handling the money? 
 A. He referred to that when he said that there was $10,000 
 uip(; that 1|hey had f 10,000 up; that was to be used for the 
 furtherance of the bill, and Payn was the man that wais further- 
 ing the interests of the bill. 
 
 Q. He siaad, in regard to Paym, that he wias furthering thie 
 interests ojf liie bill? A. Yes, air. 
 
 Q. Did he say that the money had been, or was toi be, paid to 
 Payn? A'. Well, he dtidta't say about Payn; no; he give it in 
 an indirect way; he said that the Senators weren^t up there 
 for their health. 
 
 Q. 'Nom, did he say vfiio were not up there for their health', 
 whether it was Senators or who it was? A. No, sir; he said 
 Senators; that is all I knioiw. 
 
166 
 
 Q. Thait the Senators w(?re not up there for thieif health? A. 
 That the Senatora were mot up there for their health; no. 
 
 Q. Now, in whiioh oonversatiioai did he put that? A, In the 
 flrist convierlsajtion. , 
 
 Q; And you tOild that in your direct exaiiniimaition? A. I did 
 tell it 
 
 Q. Did you? A. Well, I might Ware omitted it; as I goi alionig 
 I maiy think of! moire. 
 
 Q. I wish you would pnoid youn memory, now, as fully asi you 
 can, as td anything else that was s^id iu eitlier of those twd 
 cotoiversiatioms? A. Well, the second conversationi I have stated 
 to you just as it happened. 
 
 Q. On your diireot examination or on j'our ciiossi-examinatiomi? 
 A. I guiess yoiu will find it all alibe; both of them' alike. 
 
 Q. When did you tell of these conwrsationa? A. When did I? 
 
 Q. Yes? A. I can't recollect 
 
 Q. You have repeated them right ojffi to somebody:? A. Nioi, 
 sir; I don't think I did. 
 
 Q. When did you flrst repeat them, sio that they came to 
 somebody'is knioiwledge who was intereisted in this inyestigationi? 
 A. Well, that I can't say; it might have bfeen fully four dayis 
 afterward'. 
 
 Q. To whom did you tell them then? A. I told it to the 
 secretary of our associiatioin. 
 
 Q. What is his name? A. His name is Rothenhausler. 
 
 Q. Did Bothienhausleir take you anywhere? A. No, sir; he 
 did not. 
 
 Q. Do you gol down toi Mr. Quigg's office? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you reduce to writing whiat you stated? A. No; T di(d 
 not; I isimiply stated the facts to him as they were. 
 
 Qj. Sut yiOu didn't have anyone put it in writing for you or 
 put it in writing yourself? A. No; I did not. 
 
 Q. Well, when were you called anywhere to tell these oon- 
 v^eirsiatioins flnsit? A. Where was I called? 
 
 Q. Yes? A. This is the first place,, here. 
 
 Q. Never — Al No, sir. 
 
 Q. Never detailed them to anybody? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. That iB, foir the purposes of this inquiry? A. What is ihaib? 
 
 Q. You never ha.ve detailed them to anybody, for the p^ir- 
 poses of this inquiry? A. No, sir. ^ 
 
 Q. Eothenhausler is the first man you told them to? A. That's 
 thie man I went to'. 
 
 Q. When did you last tell them to BothenhausJer? A. That 
 is the flrist and last. 
 
 Q. Yoij haid a very angry] talk thiere, did you' not, with Fore- 
 man Smith? A. Well, mbre so on his part tham om miine. 
 
167 
 
 Q. He was very angry? A. Yes, sir; very angry. 
 
 Q. Weren't yon angry;? A. Well mot to any great extent; 
 no, sir. 
 
 Q. Been Mends since? A. Been flglilinig since. 
 
 Q. Friendsi? A. Oh, yea 
 
 Q. A little malTter of thiat sort never disturbed tlhie' MenicMiip 
 between yoiii and Mr. Smith? A. I never hldld anything against 
 anybbidy. 
 
 Q. Well, of conrse, yon didn't have amy lettei" from Mr. Piatt? 
 A. .No, sir; I did not. 
 
 Q. Anid your staitement to thiat effect was to make goiod yonr 
 statement that Smith was a liar? A. I did it foir tO' draw Mm 
 on; to find ont whether he — I believe Mr. Piatt didn't have a 
 crtnversataian with him; that was the reasom I did it. 
 
 Q. Yon da'd it to back up anoithler statement of yoluirs? Aj,^ 
 I simply done it because I had an idea that Mr. Piatt never 
 held a conversation with ham of this kind'. 
 
 Q, Well, hte told you that the man whoi told youri folks to go 
 ahead — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Had told them to go ahead? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that this man Payni waisi doing this thing under the 
 orders of Mr. Piatt? A. Thiat is w'hat he claims. 
 
 Q. That's what he told youi? A. That's what he told me. 
 
 Q. And you didn't believe that? A. I didn't believe it; no — 
 that is, abbnt Mr. Payn I knew nothing; I simply didn't believe 
 that Mr. Piatt was meddJing with)' the business. 
 
 Q. Why did you — you didn^t believe that Mr. Piatt was 
 meddling with the business? A. No; my conversation, that 
 convensatiotQi with Smith, was directed to himself and Mr. Piatt; 
 never, about Mr. Payn ; I sknply told htm thiat I didn't believe 
 that Tliiomias 0. Piatt had held a conversation with Lieutenant 
 Smith; that was my argument. , 
 
 Q. Exactly; but you didn't believe either what Mr. Smith had! 
 told you about Mr. Payn ? A. I couldn't believe anything, be- 
 cause I kmewi nothing about it. - 
 
 Q. Did you believe that? A. Any more than his conversajtion^ 
 
 Q. Did you believe o!ne woird that Smith said? A. Yes^, sir. 
 
 Q. Any more than you did another? A. Yes, sir; because, 
 when he talked money, then I knew that there was something 
 in it. 
 
 Q. Well, he would tell you| a falisehood with regard to Piatt, 
 and with relgard to Payn, yet, when he oame to tell you that 
 there were $10,000, you believed it? A. I believed it; yes^ Sir; 
 because it was a rumor that money had been up, and was up, at 
 thait timei. 
 
168 
 
 Q. Aoid it was because of this ootmrnoin rumoir that yoii believed 
 this stali^Hienl of Ms with; regard to money? A. I believed it 
 when I lieard thjiit there was $6,000. 
 
 Q. Yoiu didii't beliere it beoauise he said so? A. No, air; 
 beicause I didn't take no stock in Mm. 
 
 Q. When did you first hean that rmnoB? A. When did I first 
 hear that rumor? 
 
 Q. Yesi? A. Well, I guesisi it wa« around the tiuie the bill 
 was introduced. 
 
 Q. What bill? A. Their amendment to our bill. 
 
 Q. When did you first hear it; get as definitely as you fau 
 to the timie? A. Just what I'm telling you, around there; I 
 dom't know the exact date; I eian't tell you. 
 
 Q. The time the amendment was put on the bUl, was the 
 time you had this talk with Smith? A. Well, I am telling 
 you now — 
 
 Q. Was it any more thian two: or liiree day® befoire? A, It 
 waM abOiuit the time that the ameudmeiit was put oh' our bill. 
 
 Q. How. long had you been hearing that rumor? A. How 
 lomg; well, I've been hearing it ever isin«e. 
 
 Q. Oh, no; befoiPe, befoi"© this talk; how long had you been 
 hearing jtlhat rumor? A. I toild you, about the time that their 
 amendment was put on thieir bill. 
 
 Q. Won't you give me an amiswer as toi how lonag before you 
 had that first talk with Smith, yora had heard the rumor? A. 
 Oh, it mig'Jit have been a couple of days; I couldn't swear 
 poisitively as to the tune. 
 
 Q. Hearingl of it for a month, or two? A. No, sir. ' 
 
 Q. 0am you tell who giave you the rumoir first? A. Well, ma; 
 I couldn't, exactly. 
 
 Q. Anybbdy who told you there was |6,000, or any other sum, 
 before thfe talk with Shilth? A. I couldn't tell you who. told 
 me until I heard Mr. Smith; he spoke about the money fl'PSt 
 to me. 
 
 Q. Yes? A. Por me to| put it up. 
 
 Peter H. Ward, called as a witness, being duly sworn, testi- 
 fiied as follow®: 
 
 Direct examination by Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. Mr. Wajrd> you are a, flrenmn in thisi city? A. Yes, sir. 
 Q. "VMiat comjpany do you belong to? A Engine No. 8. 
 Q. The' siame company that Oonway and Sheridan, who have 
 just testified, beloragi tol? A. YeSi, sir. 
 
169 
 
 Q. How long liavie you been in the Are depiartment? A. Elevtsn. 
 years. 
 
 Q. How long have ywtu beloniged to 'No.. 8 Engine Company 
 A. Going on seven yeans. 
 
 Q. Do yoia kndiw Jamesi J. Smiitili.? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Asisistont foipemajnl? A. Yesi, sir. i 
 
 Q. Do yOTi' reooUect lany converisa,tion withi Smitih oni the sub- 
 ject of thie bill toi increase officers' salaries? A. I overbeard 
 tbe oonvensiatioo'; I never hiad' any conversiaition with them; I 
 overheaiWII it 
 
 Q. Between whoin was the eoinversation ? A. Sheridan and 
 (Conway. 
 
 Q. And' Smith? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q.. When wias it? A. I think it was on the morning after out 
 bill passed the Aslsembly; I wasi reading it in the paper; Lieu- 
 lenant Smith camie in' and congratulated the boys on "being 
 with nsi;" tie said, "That's the way to be; I am proud you are ' 
 with us;" he said, "We got our |10,000' up, and there^s moilimg 
 left for yjoui to do, but tol coime upi also;" and he said, "If you 
 dom't come up', it is in the committee of ciltiets now, and there it 
 will lay." 
 
 Q. Anything else in the conversation? A. No, sir; I left at 
 the end of that conversation; I had business to attend to. 
 
 Q. Do yoiui remember anything else during the time that you 
 were there? A. No, sir; any moiPe than hearsay; that iei all. • 
 
 Q. Do you remember ain,ything elBe; any other remark made 
 in that 'conversation, while you were there? A. Well, yes; there 
 were several remarks; he says that they had a good friend up 
 there, and was trying to carry it out, and oarry. it foT them; 
 ]ie said, "We have had a friend in Lou Payu," I believe the 
 man's name is Lon Payn. 
 
 Q. Was this at thie time the amiendment — wae; this at the 
 time the bill passed the Assembly or the time the amendment 
 was put on? A. The molming after the bill passed the Assem- 
 bly, it went oven to the committee on citiesi, I believe, and 
 stayed there awhile. , 
 
 Q. The bill had been to the committee on cities of the Senate? 
 A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What else was said about iPayn? A. Well, he said, "We 
 will have to come to' am understanding." 
 
 Q. State the cooiversaition? A. We will have to come to am 
 understanding,, and we will have toi be veiy lively about it, too. 
 
 Q. Did he say anything about what he meant by an under- 
 standing? A. Well, no; noit] direotly. 
 F. 22 
 
170 
 
 Q. But did he say indirectly? A. Well, he merely says we 
 will have to come up with the daugh; what he meant — I sup- 
 pose it mieant money. 
 
 Q. You heard him say that? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did the others say? A. I couldn't exactly say; I 
 wasn't listening; I wasn't listemug for any more news; I went 
 about my tasiness. 
 
 Gross-examination by Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. Where was this talk, Mr. Ward? A. On the apparatus 
 floor. 
 
 Q. In the cellar? A. ISToi, sir; first floor. 
 
 Q. lihe first floor? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. Was it the same eonyersation that has been told by Mr. 
 Sheridan? A. I don't know, sir; I undepstand they had tihe 
 same connrersation down in the cellar. 
 
 Q. And this is not the talk in the cellar? A. Sirj? 
 
 (Questtion repeated.) ' A. I doin't know anything about that, 
 sir; I wasn't down in the cellar. 
 
 Q. You tell us particularly what he said about the whole 
 matter, because you were imberested? A. Well, I wasn't, you 
 might say, interested; very] slight, in. it; I wasn't looking for — 
 
 Q. You didn't taJie any particular notice of the conversation 
 a^ all? A. No, isdr. , 
 
 Q. Just listened to what the others said? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. He said that Mr. Payn was a friend of theirs at Albany? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he say anything else about Mr. Payn? A. He said that 
 Mr. Payn would see that it would lay with the committee on 
 cities until we come to an uuderstandinig. 
 
 Q. That was all that was said about Mr. Payn? A. Yes, sir; 
 as far as I can remiemiber. 
 
 Q. And just what way did he speak oi the money? A. Well, 
 he says, " We will wait," 'and h© says to us, "Are youi fellowia 
 golinig to come upi; if you are nolt going to come up with the 
 dolugh" — that's 'just about it. 
 
 Q. And wais that all thiat he said about the money? A. Yes, 
 sir; he said they had theii* |10,000 up, with more to come. 
 
 Q. Did he say how much more? A. No, sir; he did not. 
 
 Q. And to whom did you repeat this conversation? A. When 
 I oame back from my dinner, the men in the house' — it was 
 the ciommjom talk oif the house, amongst the men. 
 
 Q. After that? A. Yes, sir; and thafs just how it was 
 repeated. 
 
171 
 
 Q. When did you repeat i1 outside of tihei hoiuise? A. I uever 
 did; it meiver left my lips sinice; I never knew anytaximig until 
 I come liiere this mominig. 
 
 Q. YoTi were summoned when? A. Tliii» moirning. ^ 
 
 Q. Thisi m'oiming? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I suppose you and Slieridian and Ward oame down togetheir? 
 A, Yes, siin. 
 
 Q. You, Shieridan and Cktaway? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you talked over wliat olccurred? A. We didn't know 
 what we were coming down foir; I just merely asked ithem and 
 they said tfhey didn't know, unless it was coming down on thes'e 
 mioney mattiens, and the conyensatilon that was up in^ the engine- 
 house; tha,t is all I know. 
 
 Q. Did yoiui talk oiver what had happened? A. We did; that 
 same diay; not since. 
 
 Q. To-day, cominig down? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Tell eiach other what you remember of the conversatioin? 
 A. No, Biir. 
 
 Q. Can yon tell tihe date of that talk that you heard in ttue 
 enigine-honee? A. I oonld: not; n'o', sir. 
 
 Q. Well, whether it was in Feibruary or March, could you tell? 
 A. I could no!t; I couldn't sav for sure; I never mJade a memo- 
 randum of this. 
 
 Henry Oonboy, called as' a witness, being duly sworn, tesitifled' 
 •ais follows: , 
 
 Direct examination by Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. Oonibioy, you are a fireman in this city? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Relomging to what company? A. Engine Company No. 25. 
 
 Q. How long, have yoiu been a member of that company? A, 
 Sinice the 16tih of July, 1893. 
 
 Q. How louig have you been in tihe department? A. The 15tlh 
 of June, 1893. 
 
 Q. You were appointed in June, 1893? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were yon a member olf No. 25 Engine! Company, ini March 
 of this year? A. Yes, siiru v. 
 
 Q. Do youi remember finding a book in the engine-house early 
 in March, a memorandum book? A. I couIdn^t say whether it 
 wais March or April ; I found a book. 
 
 Q. Whieni did you find it? A. I couldn't say when I fonnd it 
 
 Q. Tell me, as nearly ais yotu' cam get to it, when, you found it? 
 A. Well, I have no idea; I can't exactly tell what time it was 
 fofund. 
 
 , Q. Oani'ti youi give me any idea as toi when) iti was found? jAi. 
 No, sir. 
 
172 
 
 Q. How long ago did yotu find it? A. Thiat I cam't tell. 
 
 Q. Can't youl give me any idi&u wbether it wias found a yeaj' 
 agio oir la momtihi ago? A. It wasn't a yean 
 
 Q. It wasn't a yeaj? agoi? A, 'No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was it a nioin,th. agoi? A. It may have been; perhaps 
 longer. 
 
 Q. I know it ma^'; was. it two momth* ago? A. I couldn't say. 
 
 Q. Why not? ' , i 
 
 By the Clhiairman: 
 
 Q. Oan't you tell me when it was found? A. I can't tell 
 exactly thle tune. 
 
 Q. Since the' 1st of Januairyi? A. Yes, sir; it was some time 
 between the latter part of April and the early part of March, 
 I should judge. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — Some time between the latter part of April, this 
 uiiOtnth? 
 
 The Ohlaixmaai. — I guesis he meant the latter pairt of March! 
 and the first part of Apirll. 
 
 The Wiitnies's. — Yes, sir; the latter part of March and the 
 ftrat part of April. ' 
 
 Q. What soirt of a book was it? A. It was, I ishonld judgie, 
 an ordinary book for canryinig in the pocket; about, I should 
 judge, three by five or four by six inches in size; dark red, 
 miairoon, dark color. 
 
 Q. A dark red or a maroon memorandum book? A. I shouldl 
 judge it tt> be that 
 
 Q. Whereabouts in the engine-house did you find it? A. In 
 thiel rear of the house; in the rear of the engine-homse. 
 
 Q. Who was with you when you found it? A. Nobody. 
 
 Q. Did you look at it? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. What part of the book did you look at? A. I took it in 
 my hands, anJd I rolled over, the leaves and looked up thfe booik 
 in general. 
 
 Q. Did yoiu- see a column of figures in it? A. No, sir; not 
 exactly flgures. 
 
 Q. "Not exalctly figures;" what do you mean by thIat; "not 
 exactly flgures?" A. I saw there were letters, and figures, I 
 should judge, with thiem. 
 
 Q. Letters in it, and flgures, you should judge? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Whereabouts in the book were those letters and figures? 
 A. 1 should isupposie in| the front of the- book; across the front; 
 it was nearer one end than the otSter; I couldn't say whether 
 it was the front or thle back. 
 
173 
 
 Q. Whiat? A. It wasn't, I don't believe, in the middle; of the 
 book; it was nearer one eusd thani the lOtiher. 
 
 Mt. Ealimes. — I woiuld sa,y to ConnJselor Boott that Mr. Horan 
 has bro.Ti'g'Jilt a book here, wMch he says wasi the book whlcW 
 was found. Yon aire welcome to it, if you deisire to nse it. 
 
 By Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. Mr. Oonboy, you say that tbese iiguresi and letters youi 
 saw weane neairer one end of the book thian the otber? A, I 
 sbiould jud'g^ they wiere. 
 
 Q. Wbjlicih end of the book were tliey nearer to? A. Well, I 
 oan't exactly say, whetluer it was the front or the back. 
 
 Q. You looked at them right side up, didn't you? A. I 
 should judge I did. 
 
 Q. Doni't yon know? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Whether yon Woked at the figures rigbit side up or not? 
 A. Oh, I tiuaned it .so I doiuld see; 1 isuppoise it was the back; /I 
 don't know whether T opened it left-handed or noit; I should 
 judge noit. 
 
 Q. TMsy filled the page of the book, didn't they? A. Pretty- 
 near, I sihk>uld judge. 
 
 Q. And tell tbe loommittee what the figures were? A. Well, I 
 recollect of seeing jusit cajpital letteiPS "O," "K," "D" and 
 " F," and I suppose thiere waisi numbers " 15," " 13," " 18," " 45." 
 
 Q. "30?" A. 'No, sir; I oan,^t isay tbere was. 
 
 Q. "45?" A. I believie there was. 
 
 Q. Did youi see the flguresi "45?" A, I almoist thinlc I did. 
 
 Q. Well, now, tihimk again, ainid siee if yOu; did not almost, 
 but entirely, think you did? A. Well my best belief is tha-t I did. 
 
 Q. You told me, ait my offlioe, tlie other day, that you did, 
 didn^t yoUi? A. I ain't denying it now. 
 
 Q. You saw the figuires' "30" there, didn't yon? A. No, sir; 
 I don't believe that I dild. 
 
 Q. Didn^'t you tell me that you saw them? A. No, sir; I 
 don't think thait I did. 
 
 Q. Do jiou know Firemian Stevenson? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yoiu have a conversation with him about this book? 
 A. No, isir; I don't think I did. 
 
 Q. Did youi have a. oonversiatioini with anybody abouit it, after; 
 you saw it? A. Mremaini Hamck is all I remember having any 
 conversation with. 
 
 Q. Yon tioild Hauck abouit it? A. He came to me to ask 
 about iniformation regarding it 
 
 Q. Didn't you tell Hanck that you saw the figures "30" in 
 the book? A. No, sir; I don't believe I did. 
 
174 
 
 By tihe' Chjairmam : 
 
 Q. What is your recolIectiOTi; dM youi or did you not? Al 
 Mo, sir; I did not i 
 
 By Mr. Eoot: 
 
 Q. Tliesie figures, tlhfe flgiures you saw, were a d^mble oolximin 
 of flg-ujies, were itey nOifc? A. No, sir. . 
 
 Q. Eacii' number had twd figures? A. No, sir; I don't thinb 
 tbey were. 
 
 Q. How many figures were there? A. I don^t isay thtere was — 
 I don't say I siaw figures in a column at all. 
 
 Q. Where did you say you saw the figures? A. I saw them 
 in thle hook, on the plage, but I don't say they were in (tih© 
 col'umn, one directly under the other. ^ 
 
 Q. Weren't Hhej directly one under the other? A. I don't 
 think they was, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, 'how far did they come from; being one directly unidep 
 the other? A. Thlat I can't say; I didn't take a look long enoughii 
 to judge anything. ' 
 
 Q. On which' side of the pagie wePe those' figures? A. Well, I 
 couldn't say if thej| were on one side or both sides; there, may; 
 be some on both siidesi 
 
 Q. I knotw there may be; weire there some letters after thie 
 figures on the line? A. I dion't fcnow, sir; I couldn't remember 
 that. 
 
 Q. DidnfU you tell mie the other day, at m^y oflce, that thenei 
 were? A. No, sir; I didn't. 
 
 Q. You say you sawi thie letters "O. K.?" A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were the letters " O. K." after the figures? A. The letters 
 " O. K." that I saw was before the figures. 
 
 Q. What othler Itetters did you see? A. «E," "F" — "F,"'pB 
 believe. ' 
 
 Q. You saw "F;" how m'any "F's" did' yoax slee? A. In |thlei 
 jitiige, I don't knbw, sir, holw many. 
 
 Q. About hW m:my "F's" did you see? A. T ishoaild judge 
 Ihore were more Ihan one; perhaps', two. 
 
 Q. Moil© than one; perhaps, tw'o; weren't there minute than 
 two? A. I dOn^ti toow as there| was, sir. 
 
 Q. How inany — a capital "F" \^ias tMsi? A. Yes, sir; those 
 that T saw; they were lainge letters, "F's." 
 
 Q. Holw' many "E's" did yoiu wee? A. T onljyi necoHec* one. 
 
 Q. One "E?" A. Yes, sir; a large letter; that was ^n- 
 R|iii!(';uoiis. 
 
 Q, One? A. Yes, pjir, 
 
175 
 
 Q. How maniy "A's " did yott see ? A. I don't ktmoiw a|s I saw; 
 
 any "A's." 
 
 Q. Hoiw, many "H's?" A. I dion't know; I haven't countedl 
 thiem. 
 • Q. Yoni did see some "H'si?" A. I believe I did. 
 
 Q. Well, now, were' the flguries in) connection withi these letter® 
 that yoiu saw, thase capital letters? A. I couldn't siay how 
 they wene connecting with themi; what relationship they hatd 
 i;o tlie letters. 
 
 Q. "Why can't yora say? A. Well, I formed no' opinion on it 
 
 Q. I didn't ask yon for your opinion:; I asked youn memory of 
 it? A. I don't know in what i^elation the figures lacted to the 
 letters. 
 
 Q. I asked you a few minutes agO', whether this was a double 
 (^olumn of figuresi? A. Yes, sir. ^ 
 
 Q. You said that you dldni't Imolw that therfe was a column? 
 A, Yes, isir. ^ 
 
 Q. Werei the number that you saw numbers of two' figures 
 (>ach? A. Like a single or double number, do ypui mean? 
 
 Q. That is, a double number, like 45? A. I believe there was. 
 
 Q. ThieTie walsi 45 there? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Tou saw other numibers of two^ figures each, like 45'? A. 
 On the other parts of the page, I did. 
 
 Q. On different lines of the page? A. Yes, sir. y 
 
 Q. And you say the letters " O. K." were o(n the line before 
 these double figures? A.' Well, T say I saw /' 0. K." on; the 
 line, and there was figures on the line, too. 
 
 Q. And other letters besides "O. K." on the line? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were the letters " O. K." bletween the other letters on the 
 line and these double figures? A. No, sir; I don't believe they 
 were; I believe they were first. 
 
 Q. "O. K." was the first letter? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Away over to the left-hand side of the page? A. Yes, sir; 
 (here wasn't " O. K." on all the linies. 
 
 Q. There were not? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How many lines were there "O. K.'s" on? A. That I can't 
 sunrise; the page was — the bottom line had writing on it, 
 and I don't say there was " O. K." on it; I should judge that 
 thevt: were about a doizen lines in the' book, or so; the page was 
 pretty neiarly full of writing. 
 
 Q. And ealoh line on the page was pretty well filled out with 
 writing, wasn't it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And a part of that writing, on each line, consisted of these 
 double figures, like 45, or other nttimbers, of two flgnires oach, 
 
176 
 
 and the letters " O. K" amd other letters? A. :Kro, sir; I don't 
 say 0)1 eT^ery: line. 
 
 Q. Not oin every line? A. No, sir 
 
 Q. How many linies were th,ere that didn't hJave tlhoBe three 
 things om' Ijhemi? A. I don't know, sir. 
 
 Q. W^aisi there o(ne lime that had om it the lettersi "N. G.?" 
 A. I didn'^ see it. 
 
 Q. You told Mr. Hancik abiomt this book? A. Yeis, sir; I spoke 
 to him about the book. 
 
 Q. Howl long 'after yotu saw it did you speak to him abont it?" 
 A. I sho:uJd judge it may laiaire been a few weeks or so; I can't 
 exactly tell t'hie time. , 
 
 Q. Yolu talked to Mr. Qulgg about it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How. long after ydu saw it did you tell him abont it? 
 A. It was pretfy near a month or sio; it may have been previous. 
 
 Q. Conboly, what is the ddfacuilty with your memoiry to-day? 
 A. There is njothing. 
 
 Q. Wh'a,t are you afraid of? A. I ain't afraid of nothing. 
 
 Q. Anfybody been talking to you about your evidence here? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Eaines: 
 Q. Except Mr. Boot? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr Root: 
 
 Q. Ib yO'Ur memory abotut that book any worse than it was 
 when you told Hauck aboiut it? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn't yom tell Hauck that yoon saw, in that book, the 
 names of all the offloers in youri battalion? A. No, sir. 
 
 (I. Didn't you tell Hanick that you looked through and sut 
 the amonnt " 30 " an;d " 45 " alongside of their names? A. No, >i\v. 
 
 Q. Didn^t yon tell him that yon saw the number 45? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 (i. Didn't yotu tell him that all of those names were marke-l 
 " (). K." except one niani, Eddie Mahon? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And that Mahon, of Engine '-'S, wna marked' "N. G-.?" A. 
 'So, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you i-ememlber the men in the engine-house calling 
 Ilorau "O. K.?" A. Yesi, isir. 
 
 Q. After this book, was found? A. And before it. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to my they called him "O. K." before the 
 Look was fonnd? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. Can yon give any better id'ea now of when yon; found Um 
 book':' A. I ran't state tbe day of the week; afler tlie book vva-i 
 fonri'l r heard nothing of it for quite some time. 
 
177 
 
 Q. You toldl Hauck aboiut it within a week? A. I didn't saj 
 a week; it isi a week or two; I believe Mr. Hauckl was the iirst 
 on(f I ever spoke to abotut the book. 
 
 Q. Wliat did you aaj to Hauck about it? A. He oame to the 
 engine-houise — I bte^lieve it was on a Sunday — and hte' asked 
 mie — ^'he oame tbere with thie knowledge of th:e boiok; h.e had 
 ktiiown lof the book; and hie came there and he asked me if I 
 found the book; anld I told him, "Yes;" he says, "Why diiln't 
 yo." keep it?" I says, "I didn't want to keep it;" he says, "It 
 is too bad you didn't keep it;" he saysv "If you oome acrossi i,t 
 again, get it and send it to me;" I said I would; that was all 
 that pasised between ua at that time. 
 
 Q. Did you see h i m subsequently? A. Oh, I saw him twice 
 since then. , 
 
 Q. Is that all that ever paseied betweeni you anidl Haiuick about 
 the book? A. I believe about ai week after that, he came to 
 the eagine-houise again; I saw' him there, and I wient to Trim 
 and I asked him about the mteettng of the firemen's assoiciation' 
 that was hieid on the Frid&,y previous to that and aisked him 
 what went' on, what passed, in rteigard to thie flotweirs for the 
 dieath of memxbers, and he told me; he had a friend with Mm; 
 I don't knowi who the man was, a stlranger; and Hauck men- 
 tioned the boioik; he said, "Did you get the book?" I said, "Xc;" 
 he says — hie excused himself toi his friend, and we walked in1o 
 the rear; it is a double ho^uise, and there is a tender-hotuse; and 
 he says, "You didn't find the book yet?" I said, "No;" h^ says, 
 "If you only cani get -thM," he saysi, "that's, worth |100 if you 
 can find that book;" I says, "I don't know anything about the 
 book, and don't knofw asi the bobk can b|e found now; I haven't 
 cornel aoroiss it sm'ce;" soi he mentioned again, if I should find 
 the book, to isiend it to him.; I said I would; so he left thfe house; 
 the next time that he came there, I guess it was, perhaps,, two, 
 weeks after th'at, op three; it was ini the nighttime, aboiut half- 
 past 10, o|r in that neighbbirhood ; he came down, to the engine- 
 house, and isient upstairs foir me; I was in bed; I got outi of bed; 
 and I conie dlowmstairis, and thieiy; said, " Some one wishes to see 
 you a,cnoss the street;" I went over, and it was Mr. Hauck; he 
 says, "Mr., Quigg wamtts to see yom;" I sayis, "Whiere doesi he 
 live?" he says, "I will give you his laddressi;" he says, "Is 
 Cam,pbell in the hotase?" I says, "Yes^ isir;" he says, "Tell 
 Campbell to come over;" so I went over to ,the engine-house 
 and told Oamjpbell that Hauck wanted to see him; Campbell 
 couldn't go over; so I went back to Hauck land hie gave me Mr. 
 Quigg'fj address, and told mie Mr. Quigg wanted to see me the 
 next day at 11 o'clock; so I said, "I can't get thetrte at IJ 
 
 F. 23 
 
178 
 
 o'clock •" I oan get to breakfast; lue slays, "If it is neceBSary, take 
 a special leave of 12 honiEs;" I says^ "I will try and ;see if I 
 can get thJat;" I mj:s, " What is It about? " lie sayisi, " I guess it 
 is about tbat little boiok;" I says, "I don't know muclL about 
 the book, but I wiill tell thie truth) abo!uit it;" sio he come o^er 
 I'ack to the door of the engine-housie, a,ndj I don't know — there 
 were one or two men standing at the door, and' I believe he 
 ga^ e mie a piece o!f paper with' Mr. Quigg's addiressi om^ to give 
 to Campbell, and I toiok it, and Mr. Hauck went on home; Mr. 
 Campbell. mid if Mr. Qulgg wanted to see Mm, he knew where 
 to find Mm; and the next day I went to Mr. Quigg's house; 
 that is the conversation I had withi Mr. Hauick, and I haven't 
 spoken to himi since that time, in regard to the book. 
 
 Q. Well, mow, d<> yotu remember Horam? AL He is an assist- 
 ant foreman. 
 
 Q. What is his fuJI name? A. Patrick is Ms first 
 
 Q. Patrick Horan? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You .say tte boys in th'e engine-hiouse called Mm " O. K. ? " 
 A. Yes, 6ir- 
 
 Q. After this book wais found? A. And before, I remember 
 it mentioned. 
 
 Q. Well, yoiu und'erstooid Mm to be called that after the book 
 was found? A.- Yes, siir. 
 
 Q. You say you heard it menttioned before? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. i>id you ever hear htm called "O. K" befoire? A. I have 
 heard it mentioned around the house. 
 
 Q. The letters "O. K?" A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yo>u ever hieair Horan called " 0. K." before the b6ok 
 was foiund? A. Nott that I can remember. 
 
 Q. You never heard Horan called " O. K." before the book ^va^ 
 fotoid, did you? A. I can't say that I did. , 
 
 Q. And, after the book was found, the boys ini tlile enigime-honBe 
 cajlled Mm " O. K.," did they? A. They laJludied to Mm; I believe 
 they did. 
 
 Q. They idid call Mm "O. K.?" A. Yets, dr. 
 
 Q. Did he say, when thiey called Mm' " 0. K," did he say any- 
 thing about the book? A. No, sir; I didn't blear him. 
 
 Q. Didn't you hear Mm say, wihen they called! him "O. K," 
 that he hla;d the book and they could see it? A. No, sir; t don't 
 think he said it wMle they were calling him) "0. K.;" I heard 
 him isay he had the book, 'and thiat, if they wanted thfe book, he 
 would give it to thiem, if they wished' it 
 
 Q. Didn't you tell me this, at my office, tUe other evening: "Q. 
 Then, on this one occasion, when ttitey caJledi him 0. K. he said ho 
 had the book and would ish,oiw it? A. Yesi, sir. Q. At the time 
 
179 
 
 tliat "0. K." was mentionedi didn't he say that? A. T don't 
 know as lie did, that that brought out that remark from, him.'" 
 
 Q. Well, what did bring out that remiark from him? A. Well, 
 T can't say. 
 
 Q. You don't know what brought out that remark? A, No, sir. 
 
 Q. I'bu heard the remark? A. I heard the remark, but T wasn't 
 present when the remark was made^, on the floor. 
 
 Q. How did you hear it^ where were you? A. I was up stairs. 
 
 Q. ^Besides the capital letters, which you: have tesitifled you 
 saw in that book, were there small letters also? A. I couildn't 
 say there was small letters. 
 
 Q. Why icouldn't you say? A. Because I don't' know; I don't 
 s?,y that there were small letters. ■ 
 
 Q. Well, what was lihie writing ftiat filled the lines on this 
 book? A. I coiuldn't read it; I coulda''t make out whait ii v/as. 
 
 Q. Writing you couldn't read? A. I didn't keep it long enougli 
 t)o read; I didn't spell thte words, I diidni't mjake nothing out 
 of it. . 
 
 Q. Wasn't it difScult to read; wasn't it plain writing? A. The 
 large lettersi in it was plain enough. , 
 
 Qi Weren't the -small letters plain? A. I don't know as tihey 
 was small letters. 
 
 Q. Then what were they, besides large letters? A. Some' kind 
 of a mark, ira between the large ones, whether i they were small 
 letters, I don't know. 
 
 Q. Did you make thisi statement to me in the presence of the 
 stenographer, two days ago, speaking' of this book? "Q. Them 
 these linesl were completely filled with writing; and at the enid, 
 right after each, at the end of ffle line were the figure® 45, other 
 figures, the * O. K.,' ini penol, right under the figures', and before 
 the .figures ou the lelft-hland part of the line flJlieid oiuit with 
 letters, capital letters and small letters? A, The number wasi on 
 the end; the letters were in front of it, like in the cortnetri, and 
 then carriedi out, and on^ the enid wais' the number." Q. Did! you 
 sitate thait? A. I believe I did. 
 
 Q. Was that true? A. Part of it might have been true. 
 
 Q. I know part of it might have been, but was there any part 
 of it uDitruie? A. I don't knoiw; read the answer again, please. 
 
 Q. "A. The number was on the 'end; the lettersl were in froult 
 of it, likfe in ithe oomer, and then carried out, and ion the end was 
 the number." Is that true? A. The first part of that question? 
 
 Q. "A. The number was on Ithe end of the line, or in fnont of 
 it), like in|,the coirner, and thien carried out, and on the emd wa^ 
 Ithe number," A. Is that the answer I gave? 
 
180 
 
 Q. That is the answer yota gave; was it trrae? A. I won't swear 
 ta,that anerwer. 
 
 Q. Yom will not? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Why nott? A. Because I don't know asi it is true. 
 
 Q. Did yon make this statement, "And, of cotuirsei the capital 
 — each line begimning with a capital, letter, I isuppiose? A. 1 
 believe I Idlid'." A. Yes, sir. '^ 
 
 Q. T!hat was trae? A; Yes, sir; pipetty near. 
 
 Q. "Was, there more than one- caipitaJ, oir was there jmslti onle 
 capital I'ettter and theni a lolt- of smiall letteins? A. ' K ' wias thie 
 capital letter, and then ' 0,^ besides-the 'O. K.;' thiere wasn't 
 other capitals, more than, one 'oni a line." A. Three or four, I 
 shiotuld judgie. I 
 
 Q. Did you sitate that? A. Yes', sir. 
 
 Q. Is' thiat trae? A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There were three oirl four o'ajp|iltals loni a line? A. Yes> sir. 
 
 Q. Thait is trae, is it? A. , Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. "Q. Three or four capital letters, withi small letters be- 
 tween? A. There were a few smiaJl letteocis; thesre was writing 
 in it that I couldn't m-ake out, on the siecond line; I couldn't 
 miake oult what it was." A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you make that statement? A. Yes, sir; I said that — 
 I didn't say theope were: small letters iu' between; I didn't state 
 that. - , 
 
 Q. You didn't state tih'at? A. I dlon^t think' it iwas so; I didni't 
 state tihait there were, tWat I was sure of it 
 
 Q. You didn't siay you were sure of it? A. The small ItettersL 
 
 Q. That you were not sure of it; wihat is yoiir best recollection 
 aibotut it? A. There were large ' letters, and thiere was maiikB 
 separatilig them, or whetheir they were small letters; I don't 
 know wMcih they were. 
 
 Q. Youi say it was not true there were small letters on 
 these lineis as well as the flguresi? A. I dom't believe thiere 
 was; I can't say wtethier there was small letters or,whiat they 
 were. , 
 
 Q. Did you m'ake this statelmlent to me, before the stenog- 
 raplieiP: "Q. C!ould you' read the same words on all the lines? 
 A, Hardly; thiere were slome that were not on; every line; sottne 
 must bave had ditto marks." Did you stafei that? A. I believe 
 I did;, isome thing similar to that. 
 
 Q, Is it true? A. Well, I didn't say that was trua 
 
 Q. Well, I want to know whiether it was true or not? 'AL 
 I have to answer againi. 
 
 Q. " Q. Ctould you read iMe same words on all the lines? A. 
 Hardly; there were siome that weire not on^ every, line; some 
 
181 
 
 ToxiBt hiave Itad diltto mlarks." A. I didn^'t say, tlie lines was all 
 carried otuit; is thiat wihlat yplu say there? 
 
 Q. Woin/t you listen to this; hiere is the question tbat was 
 put to youi: "Q. Ckrald you read th.e same words: oaa all tihle 
 lines?" A. No, sic- ^ 
 
 Q. Here is your ansiweir: "A. Hwdly; there was isoime tiiat 
 were not on eyery line; sOme must haye ijiad, ditto marks." A, 
 Yes, isir. \ 
 
 Q. You saild that? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is true, isi it? A, I suppoise it is, 
 
 Q. "Q. Ditto under what? A. Under 'O. K'"? A. Did I 
 state that? 
 
 Q. Yes; didtft yo(u; I aslc you? A. If you' have it there; you 
 isiay I did; I don't know as it wiaisi true otr not; Ij loau't say noiw 
 wheither it was. unldier " O. K." or what it wasi idirectly under. 
 
 Q. You did make a statement to me; I questioned you before 
 ■a stenographer? A. I wasi moist apt to make almost any kind 
 of statement. 
 
 Q. You would nott state anything that you did mot beliere? 
 A. I migiht) have said otne thing in itwio ov three differenit ways. 
 
 Q. You were intending to tell the truth'? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. If you said, then, that there were ditto marks under thte 
 "O. K." was it true? A. I won't say that it was. 
 
 Q. Will ;^ou siay that it wasn't? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Tell uis whether it was or not? A. I oan't say whetihier 
 it was 01" not. , 
 
 Q. Wene you asked this question ,and did you make this 
 answer: "Q. You don't rememhter any figures larger rtihani 45? 
 A, No." A. No, sir; I dOtn't 
 
 Q. That was true, was it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you asked these questions and did you m^ake these 
 amiswers: "Q. You think there may have been half a dozen 
 or a dozen: 45's? A. Yes, sir; there was small figures. Q. What 
 was the smallest figure? A. I think it was 15. Q. That is the 
 smallest figure? A. I believe so." Did you testify sio? A. I 
 believe I tbild you that thiere wasi 13 and 18. 
 
 Q. Did you testify to that that I have read? A. Well, pi] 
 will testify now, but the smallest figure I saw there was 13, 18, 
 45 and 15; 15, I believe, I told yoiu'. 
 
 Q. HJow m'any oonapanies are Ithiere in your battalion? A. 
 Six, I believe. 
 
 Q. Six companies? A. Six or seven. 
 
 Q. And how many lines were there written: on, on this page, 
 in this book? A, I should judge there were 10 or a dozen. 
 
 Q. How many officers are, there in each company, in the 
 battalion,? A. Two ini siome; thlrele in others. 
 
182 
 
 Q. Did you make this statement before the stenographeP: 
 "Q. Waa there a 'W on tlie first line? A. No, sir. Q. An 
 'H?' A. I believe there was." A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is true, is it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. "Q.An'N?' A. NOi sir. Q. What were the small letters 
 between those? A. I couldn't tell what those were? Q. Yoiui 
 aay there were an 'E' and two 'F'ls?' A, Those were large 
 letters, capitals. Q. A large 'E' and a large 'F' and two 
 large 'E's;' any other letter? A. There was four or fiTe 'E's' 
 aud 'H's.'" Did you make thwart; istatememt? A. There is a 
 diozen letters yolu read off. ; 
 
 Q. Well, what is the fact? A. There w^ no more tbian: fouta 
 or five letters. 
 
 Q. Four or five capitlal letters? A. Large letters. 
 
 Q. Did you make this statement: "Q. And what else wais 
 thiere? A. Small letters were marked betweem." A. There was 
 soime miairks between some of thJe large letters. 
 
 Q. "Between each of these largle letters there were some 
 emJall letters? A. I don't say between each of them." A. JE 
 don't say there was ismall letters between^ any of them; there 
 was letters or marks of some kind!; I don^t Iniiow which. 
 
 Q. WTiat is the fact abofut it? A. About what? 
 
 Q. What is the fact about their being small letters? A. d 
 say I don't know whether they were small lettens or not, om 
 whether they were marked. 
 
 Q. Did I put this question to you^ and did you make thSs 
 answer: "Q. Wh'at did you thiink those letters m'^tnt? A. I 
 didn't have any idea what it meant. Q. You have since? A. 
 I have sinioe; lately I have fo^rmed an idea. Q. What is the idea 
 you formed?" 
 
 Mr. Eaines. — One moment. I guess not. We will hardly 
 take that. We will take a description of that book. But it 
 seems to me the opinioni this witness has formed since, isn't 
 a very uslefujl one to us. 
 
 The Chairman.— Well, we will let it stand. 
 
 By Mr. Boiot: I 
 
 Q. Did you m'ake this statement: "A. I formed the idea, that 
 it was a book of memoranidnm; of assessments, I think." 
 
 (Objected to.) 
 
 A. Noi, sir; I don't believe I said that , \ 
 
 Q. Didn't you say that in my office Ito me, before a stenojgj- 
 rapher who took it down? A. j!^o, sir; I don't believe it- I 
 don't believe that I said it; I didn't mean it 
 
By tihie Olilainnaii: 
 Q. You didin't mean it? A. No^ sir. 
 
 By Mr. Eioot: , 
 
 Q. Noiw, you say tliat you toM' Hauck about this book; did 
 you tell him thie -taiith' about thiat? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you tell bim wbat was! m tbe book thene, truly? A. 
 No, sir; I doii''t beliere I related anytbiug of tbe inlside of itihie 
 boolc to Mr. Hauck. 
 
 By thie Cbainnan: 
 
 Q- Did you tell Mm thle truth, whatever, youi did say to himi? 
 A. Mr. Hauck, I didn't relate anything about the inside of the 
 book to bii'TTiij sir. 
 
 Bj Mr, Boot: i 
 
 Q- You isay Hauok tloldl you it wasi too bad! that you didn't 
 keep the book? A. Yea, sir. 
 
 ,Q. Whatfc did you tell him to make him tMhk it was tooi biaid 
 you didn't keep it? A. I didn't tell him anything; he had 
 been told somewhere else, and oamei toi me. | , 
 
 Q. What did yoiu tell Hauck, to make him itell you' toi keep 
 the bO'Ok, anid send it to him if you got it againi? A. I told 
 him: nothing to make him say that. 
 
 Q. You say yon have no idieai that this book was a memoirandum 
 o(f ajssessmenits or payments by. the offteers of yoiiw^ battalion;? 
 A. JSTo, sir. ^ 
 
 Q. And you gavfe no such idea to Mr. Hauck? A No, sir. 
 
 Q. Never, entertained that idea at all? A. No', saw. 
 
 Q. And. you didn't know W'hiy tWe boys were calling Horan 
 "O. K?" A No, sir. i 
 
 Q. Had no idea? A Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. And you didn't form* the slightest idea of what those 
 letters and figures, and the letteiTB " O. K." meant? A. No, sin 
 
 Q. Didn't think about it? A No, sir. ^ 
 
 Q. Neiver ooourtped to you to think aboiut it? A. Noi, ,sir. 
 
 Q. Didn't tMnk "O. K." meant anything? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You didn/t think the flgui^eisi meant anything? A: No, sir. 
 
 Q. You .didn't think the letters', large ,and small, on the page 
 on that boO'k, relerred to the different companies in your bat- 
 talion and to the form 'and- .the system' formed in this casei? 
 A. No, 'sim. , 
 
 Q. Did you say anything — what did you say, if anything, to 
 Hauck, to make Hauck say that this book would be worth |100? 
 
184 
 
 A. I don^t think I said anything' toi him ify make Mm say thiajfj 
 to me. 
 
 Q. Didn't you ask Hauck what wasi there about the book that 
 made it valiuable? A. No^ sir. 
 
 Q. Weren't you surprised that he should be so anxious aboultl 
 the book? A. No, sir; I didn't appear to be suiTpriseid. 
 
 Q. Were you? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. It didn't create any surpdise in yomr mind that Haiuck 
 should think this book, which had nothing in it, wasi worth 
 1100? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What dm you think that he thought it to be worth |100 
 for? 
 
 |100 to himself, I suppose, it wotuld benefit him, morei so thiam 
 anyone else. 
 
 Q. How do you know it would benefit hJim? A. He passed 
 a I'emairk to mci, and Fireman Stevenson was present, that, if 
 he had. tihJe book, he wislhedi he had the book, that he owed 
 Lieutenanlt Horan' a good one, whiatever he meant; that he 
 would get square for something that was done to him; I don't 
 know what it was. 
 
 Q. Did yoiu think that that book would help him to get square 
 with Lieutenant Horan? A. Possibly^ he would produice it to 
 the committee here. ; 
 
 Q. Posisibly he would, produce it to the committee here? lA. 
 I Suppose so. 
 
 Q. Why did you think that thiat book would be produced to 
 the committee here? A. Why did I think? 
 
 Q. Yes? A. I didrft think anything of the kind. 
 
 Q. What did you see in' the book that made you think it would 
 be a book to be produced before this committee? A. I didn't 
 see anything in the bbiok to think that it would amount to 
 anything. 
 
 Q. Why did you think that Hauck wanted the book produced 
 before the conimittee? A. He heard something outside of our 
 hotuse, I think. , 
 
 Q. How do you know? A. He came from outside into the 
 house to inquire. 
 
 Q. You asked no questionis about what he thought was ini 
 tihie book? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn''t make any inquiries about what he thought was. 
 there? A. No, sir. 
 
 Crolss-exam-inatioii by Mr. Raines: 
 Q. Mr. Oomboy, will you look at the book that I mow show 
 you; some of the leavesi are loose? A. I see nothing here, sir, 
 that I saw before. 
 
185 
 
 Q. Open' It ,tliiig way? A. No, sir; I didn't see that. 
 
 Mr. Poot — Let that book be marked for identiflcatioin< as th)e 
 book proiduiced ' by counisel. , 
 
 ' Mr. BamieSi — I -was) engaged in examining the witness. 
 
 Mr. Boot. — Have you any objection to having the book miarked? 
 I beg to interpos© an objectioin and' to aisk tihat the book be 
 marked for identiflcationv 
 
 Mr. Eiaineis. — Thiere can not be amy nec^sity, that I see, tor 
 its being maTked before I get thronghL Is there any particular 
 objecition to my showing the witness a boiok? A. I siball have it 
 marked' fioB identification. Gounisel's exceeding heat and haste 
 I oani not qiuite coflnjprehlend. 
 
 Mr. Eoot. — On the coumsel's statement that he will hiave the 
 block marked, I withdraw (the objection. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — Your apology is accepted, and I shall exomsie 
 you for the interruption. 
 
 Mr. Eoot. — You are very eaisily satisfied with an apology. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — ^Yesi; it is so very seldom^ that we get one from you. 
 
 By Mr. Kaineis: 
 
 Q. I show you these entries, in this book? A. ISTo, sir; 1 don't 
 recollect seeing thalt. 
 
 Q. Youi don^t recolle|ct seeing those entries? A. Moi, sir. 
 
 ,Q. Figures; could you identify the' entries if you saw them? 
 A- If I «aw them I could. 
 
 Q. You think you could? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are those the entries that you saw (indicating) ? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see ithe namies of peiople/ written in the book? A 
 No, sir; I siaw no names. 
 
 Q. Did you look with amy caire at the book? A. I took the 
 book up; I didn't take lany particular notioe to see the name; 
 just to see if there was an O'wner'.s name; that's the reason I 
 opened the( book. 
 
 Q. ThaA was your only purpose of your examiniatiora of the 
 book? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. You saw the figured 18 and other figuresi there, with 
 " O. K." against them? A. Those ain't the onesi I have seen, sir. 
 
 Q. Those aire not the lonesi you have seen? A. Nby sir. 
 
 Q. You Slay that it wasi a book of similar color to this? A. 
 I believe theire was a rubber band around it; I believe thaiti 
 was the book. 
 
 Q. How? A. T beUeve that is the book I picked up. 
 
 Q. You believe it is the book that you picked up? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. Well, now, just how carefully did you examine the book, 
 with a view to finding the owner's name? A. I <xnly raised! 
 F. 24 
 
186 
 
 boiok up land took the band off ilt, and kind of tnnned thie leaves, 
 and so I opened the fly-leaf for tot turn thie leaf o,rec, and, on 
 one of the pages, I saw; thrae tibyings', and I seeii! there was no 
 niaine in it, and I closed the book. 
 
 Q. You didn't see anythSmg about the expenises- of a funeral, 
 a hea.pse, cdaches, and things of thiart kind? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. But it was a baok which^ exactly corresponds with' this 
 in appearance? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Well, mow, ha-e is the word "No;" did yon see any such 
 entries as that? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Andi, so far as you can, remember, can you tell anything 
 moire of what was in thiat bbok than you have already told? 
 A. No, isir; that is all I aani think. 
 
 Q. Hare yon looked through this book sufftciently, iso that 
 you aire ablle to say as to whether you saw any, of thiis writing 
 that ie here in the book? A. No, sir; it wasi a sort of a pageful 
 that I saw. 
 
 Q. A pageful? Ai Yes, ®ir. 
 
 Q. If that pageful appeared in, the book, then you would 
 think that this was the book? A. Yeis, sir; I would recognize 
 it, the insidte! as well as the oiutside. , 
 
 Q. Does the testhnony which yon have given, in describing this 
 book, relate to that one page, pairticularly? A. Yes, sir; thafs 
 all. 
 
 Q. And! yotu haven't intended to describe other pages? A. 
 No, sir; 1 .9a.w no other pages. 
 
 Q. The letters and flgures a,nd capitals thiat you have spokeni 
 of were all oin oine page? A. Yes, sir, 
 
 Q. Whether there was writing on the other pages, lUce this 
 (indicating), yon didn't notice? A. I didn/t see that. 
 
 Q. Did you notice whether there was writing, like this, on 
 the other pages? A. No, isir. 
 
 Q. You idid not? A. There may have been, but I didn't see any. 
 
 Q. This book, in- its general appearance, answers: tO' the book 
 that yon .saw? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 (The boiok previously referred to was marked Exhibit A, for 
 identification, April 27, 1895.) 
 
 Q. Where did you find the book? A. In ihe rear of the 
 engJU'e-house. 
 
 Q. In the lot? A. No, sir; in the rear room. 
 
 Q. Where the hoir,s.es were, or thte engine? A. No; where 
 the engine Wias; a little bench, a,s you go down the cellar. 
 
 Q. Was it lying on the floon? A. On the floor. 
 
 Q. On the floor? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What time of day did yolu find it? A. In the morning, 
 about half -past 9; between that and 10 o'clock. 
 
187 
 
 Q. Between half -past 9 and 10 o'clock? A. Aboiut that, I 
 ahoiild judge. 
 
 Q. How long did! yoTi have it? A. I didtft hold it half a 
 minute, I should judge. 
 
 Q. You didn't hold it half a mimite? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What then was done with it? A. I put it back on the 
 bench; it fell beMnd the bench; and I went and took my 
 breakfast. 
 
 Q. And then- what? A. I knew noithing after that. 
 
 Q. lou saw no more of the book? A. No, isir; I didtoi't see 
 the book at all since then. 
 
 Q. You don't know what became of it? A. No, .sir. 
 
 Q. Who foiund it after that? A. I didn't see; I heard that 
 Fiireman Campbell had pilcked it up after. 
 
 Q. Yes? A. But I dotn't knoiw; I heard it. 
 
 Q. Did you _look to see whether any of the leaves of the 
 book were loose at the timfe or not? A. It wasn't m very good 
 order, I shiould jud'ge, when I picked it up. 
 
 Q. It wasn't in very good order when' you picked it up ? 
 A. No, isair. ■ 
 
 Q. And, then, how, many leaves were loose in the book, you 
 dlid not observe? A. I didn't observe, sir. 
 
 Q. YoTi tterned it over carelessly, from beginning to end? 
 A. Yes, ,siir. ^ 
 
 Q. But looked only at due page of writing? A. Yes, sir; that's 
 alll; that's all that come to my notice. 
 
 Q. Well, now, when you went down — -when was it that you 
 went down to Mi?. Roiot's office? A. Last — I think it was 
 Tuesday or Wednesday. 
 
 Q. Of last week? A. Yes, sir; I can't exactly say. 
 
 Q. Tuesday or Wednesday? A. I can't exactly say. 
 
 Q. You were treated very delightfully by everybody there? 
 A. Yes, iSir; I was^ I shloiuld judge. 
 
 Q. Were you informed that there was a stenographer taking 
 notes at the examination? A. I didn't kno'w! that there was. 
 
 Q. You didn't laisk any infoirmation of that sort? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Who were present at the time? A. Mr. Boot, and Mr. 
 Quigg, lan'd Mr. — what's his name — Reagan and another man. 
 
 Q, You went on and stated all that yon knew with regard! 
 to the matter to them? A. And a little I didn't know, I suppose. 
 
 Q. What you' didn't know? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Your recollection with regard to the book was a little 
 vagfue? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Beoau^ of the shoirt length of time that you had it ini 
 yotun hands? A. Yes, stir. 
 
188 
 
 Q. Well, where was it thlat Hauek isiaidi sKMnetMng toi yoiu 
 aiboTit ills getting square with. Horan? A. In thie engine-hoiise. 
 
 Q. Just liow did Hauick purt that? Ai. He -says, "I would 
 like to hiave thiiS boiok;" tluat lie owed Hor-ain a good ome; that 
 he could get one in: on Hoiran; thiat he owed it to him- 
 
 Q. Did he say how he intended to get square with Horan? 
 A. No, isir; not to me. ^ i 
 
 Q. That was not the way in which he piit it? A. No, sir. 
 
 iQ. What is the custom,', when you ring off at the 'phone, in 
 your engine-hottse, with regard to saying " O. K. ? " A. Wheni 
 th>6y receive en message, and it is all complete, they gen'erally 
 say "O. K," "all right;" "O. K." instead of "'all right." 
 
 Qi That ia the form of expression at the 'p^hione? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. When you irimg off? A. Yes, isir. 
 
 Q. Is Horan peculiar in respelct toi Ms sayiaig " O. K." when 
 he rings off? A. Well, I can't say that he is. ^ ' ' 
 
 Q. Does he always say "O. K." invariably? A. At times he 
 does. 
 
 Q. Do you know whethter the "O. K. Horan" has come from 
 the fact that he had some peculiar way of sayimg " O. K." when 
 he rang off? A. Well, when he would go tO' the 'phone, he 
 would generally carry on little jokes through the house, when 
 he would be at the 'pihione. 
 
 Q. ThatI was the time when he was generally called " O. K.?" 
 A. Yes, isiT!; we would holler "O. K." 
 
 Q. How long a time had they! been holleiring " O. K." at him? 
 A I beard it more sin^ce I have been in thie house, often,-; ever 
 since I have been in the house. , 
 
 Q. How long ago did you first hear it? A. Over a year that 
 I have hearidi it. 
 
 Q. Over a; year? A. Since I have been in the house; pretty 
 near two years. 
 
 Q. It is a year, at least, that you have been hearing Tiiini 
 called "O. K." thtere? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So it wasn't the time thIat th'e ired booik was| found! tjhlat 
 oiooasioned Ms being clalted "O. K.?" A No, sir. 
 
 Q. That is something borne in the isuggestive mind of the 
 counsel in the case? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 , Redirte'ct examinatiion by Mr. Itoot: 
 
 Q. Oonbby, why did you tell mie, a few minuteisi ago, that yoti 
 never heard Mm cialled " 0. K." until after tMs book was founld ? 
 
 Mr. Eainiesi. — I dpn't tMnk you put it in that way, because 
 he said he had heard him called "O. K." before. 
 
 Mr. Eooit — He said tha1i he never heard it before. 
 
189 
 
 Mp. Eaimea— Yoiu aBifced liimi wlietlier he bad- lieard Mm 
 called " O. K." before this, book wasi foiund; aud he said, " Yes,,','; 
 arJd he had! heard him called " O. K." before. That isi the waiy: 
 iln which tJie testimony sitands. 
 
 By MJr. Eootr 
 
 Q. Dildtn^t you tell me that you never heard Horan called 
 "O. K." before this book was found? A. No, sir; I did not. 
 
 Q. Did you eiver hear him called " O. K." before the book' wasi 
 found? A. Yeis, sir. 
 
 Q. Who did you, ever hear call him that? A. Everybody in) 
 the house, I think. , 
 
 Q. Everybody in the house called him " O. K." before the) 
 book was foiumd? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How. oiften have you heard him called that? A. Just as 
 anytMnig would pass on, that it related to. 
 
 Q. "When did you say you went into that company? A. On' 
 .the 15t3i of July, I believe it wasi, 1893. 
 
 Q. And' were they calling' him "O. K." then? A. I had to 
 get familiar with the house, before I could get on to. it, for 
 awhile. , 
 
 Q. How sobn after yon went into it did they begin toi call 
 Mm "O. K.?" A. That I can't exactly tell. 
 
 Q. Within a few monthBi? A. I should judge, it was a year 
 I was in tfhie' blouse, or over tWat, I first heard it. 
 
 Q. Over a year? A, Yes, sir. 
 
 ,Q. Waisln/t it a year and ai half? A. I won't say, any special 
 time. 
 
 ,Q. Will you, say that yoiui ever heard him called thiaft, before 
 the month of Jtmuary, 1895; laist January? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Heard him called that in the house? A. I have h^eard 
 thie "O. K." mentioined in tihe house. ,' ' j 
 
 Q. You have heard thte "O. K." mentioned in the house; bnt 
 have you ever heard Horan called- " O. K. ? " A. Well, I ha.Tei 
 heard him' i at the telephone, and he would siay "O. K." 
 
 Q. You hiave heard Mm say "O. K." at the telephonie? A. 
 Yes, sir. , j i 
 
 Q. But tJhat is not what I am asking youi a'bout; I am. asking 
 yoiui whether you ever heard anybodj^ call Horan " O. K." before 
 thia book was found? A. Galling him a name? 
 
 Q. Yesi? A. I don't Imow as iiiej related to a nickname of 
 any kind; they migM say "O. K." tio Min. ,' 
 
 (Question repeiateid as follows): But that isi not what I am 
 asking you about; I am. asking you whether you ever heard! 
 
190 
 
 anybody ciall Hoiriaia "O. K." before this book wasi fotmd? A. 
 I believe I did. 
 
 ;Q. Wkem? A. I oam't say whteo. 
 
 Q. Do you' meajn thiat they called him "O. K.?" A, Say 
 " O. K." tot Mm. 
 
 Q. Used that niofcuame to Mm? A. If they wanted Mm, they 
 wiouidn't clall Mm "O. K.;" if thiey wanted' Mm, they would call 
 Mm. 
 
 Q. Whia^ would they say? A. They would call htm "Lieu.. 
 tenant" 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear them call him anytMug but Ms owm 
 name, or hils title of " LieuteMamt," before this booik was found? 
 A. Yeis, sir. 
 
 Q. What? A. I heard them paissing remarks of " O. K." 
 
 Q. I am mot talking of passing remarks? A. Passing it to him, 
 
 ;Q. I lami mot talking about thiat; I am talking, about using 
 that as a nickname? A. I dou't believe that they would call 
 it a nickniame. 
 
 Q. Aftetci this book wlas found, they called him "O. K.?" A. 
 "O. K." was kept up; I suppose it is kept up; amd it will be 
 folr some timie, now. ;^ 
 
 Q. Did you make this isitatement at my office the other evening: 
 "Q. You understand the mieaning of th,e letters 'O. K.?' A. 
 All correct Q. Yes; that is what you understand? A. Yes, 
 sir; what I umderstooid; thjat is the joke thajt passed aroumd." 
 Did you laay .that? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. ''Q. A joke on whom? A. A joke on Horan." Did you 
 siay that? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. "Q. On Horan? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wbat is Ms name? A. 
 Patrick H. or Patrick J. Q. Tell me about the joke? A. The 
 joke was darried on; auiytMng th^at was siaid the fellowB' wouldl 
 Slay 'O. K.,' joking about 'O. K.'" Did you say tbat? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Isi thiat true? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. "Q. That was aifter the book wasi found? A. Yes, sir." 
 Did you slay th'at? A. YeiS', sir. 
 
 Q. Was it true? A. I siay, now, and before.' 
 
 Q. Was it true? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. "Q. Did he take it goiodnatiwedly? A. Yes; he appeared 
 to." Did you siay thaitl? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. "Q. What did! he slay? A. I don't know that he said 
 anytbtng out of the way; he laugh'ed, and I heart' hira siay that 
 he had the book yet, amd if anybody wanted tO' see it, he wouild 
 sholw it tio them ; he would let them have it." Did you ;siay that? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
191 
 
 Q. "Q. To wliioiri did lie say iihiat? Ai. I teiand hiim; pass thie 
 remiark in the en^iaie-touHe." Is th'art: true? A. Yea, sir. 
 
 Q. "Q. Tlhiey were talking aroiiind, talking to: and fno, in thie 
 engine-holuse? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who was there wteni lie said 
 he would show the book, if they wanted to see it? A, I can't 
 say exacitiy who; were there. Q. What had been said about thte 
 book befoitei he siaid hie had the book? A. There Were some 
 nemarks passed about it that I didn't hear; it is a. hollow hoiuse, 
 and you oan stand at one end of the honse, and I wajs njpstaipsi, 
 'Cleaning brass railings, at the time, or doing som.ethim'g or other. 
 Q. You heard somebody calling ' O. K. ? ' A. I heard it aroiund, 
 ' O. K.' Q. How many times did yom hear that? A. It went 
 on foir weeks, I should judge." Did you say that? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It was true, was it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. " Q. The boys joking Mm abbtut ' O. K. ? ' A. Yes, sir. Q. 
 And then, on this one oiccaisioni, whten they called him ' O. K.„' 
 he said that he had the boiok and' would show it? A. Yes, sir." 
 Did yon say that? A. Eead' it again. , 
 
 Q. " Q. And then, on this one occasion, wliem they called him 
 ' O. K.,' hie said that he had the book, and wonld show it? A. 
 Yeis, sir." Did you siay that? A. I believe I did. 
 
 Q. That isi true? A. I heard that said. 
 
 Q. "Q. Did anybody say he wanted to see it? A. 'No, sir. 
 Q(., Did yoiu know wheither he was' talking about the boiok that 
 you hiad seen? A. I believe he was. Q. You have no doubt 
 of it? A. -Hairdly any." Did yon say that? A. I shtotild judge 
 it was. ; 
 
 Q. "Q. Did you talk with the other mieni abiout it? A. Not. 
 Q. You knoiw what the joke was, and you didn't talk with them 
 and joke abtout'it with each other? A. I have heard some one 
 would pass that joke, and after that, that was all therie was 
 of it. Q. There was sotaething to make the joke about? A.. 
 That '0. K.;' thiat was what it was." Did you say that? A. 
 I suppose it was. 
 
 Q. It was the "O. K." in this book that you were talking 
 atootut? A. I suppose it related! to that, just at tihiaiti time. 
 
 Q. " Q. The men in thtei house had a joke on Horam and kept 
 joking about him, didn't they? A. Well, I don't knoiw what 
 wias the original meaning of the ' O. K.,' hut they got siomething 
 out of it toi use' to him. Q. Did youi ever say a world toi anyone 
 aibout what they meant by joking him about 'O. K.?' A. 'N<y.; 
 I couldn't say. Q. You never asked them that? A. No, sir. Q. 
 Never talked withi any of them? A. No, sir." Did you say 
 thiat? A. Yes, sir. 
 
192 
 
 Q. " Q. TMis was for a week after jcm saw fh.e bolofe? A. Yiea; 
 nuay have been two weeks; every! once in awMle it wasi spmng 
 oiuit." A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that was trne? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. "Q. How soon aifter yow saw thle boiok did i* begiin? Aj 
 Not for some time; I ihlardly knolw when- it begiani or wben i-^ 
 started, or wihb begian^ ' O. K.' " Did yoiii' say that? A. Yea, sir. 
 
 Q. Was it true? A. I don't- think it was. , 
 
 Q. Why did yon tell me what was noit true? A. I was about — 
 
 Q. Why did you tell me hene thatj this oaHing HJoran, " O. K" 
 did not begin, for som.e tunie afteir, you saw the book, if it wiasj 
 molt true? A. Well, in regards: toi that, thle "O. K." was usedi 
 more frequently, in joking temnsi, at' that time. 
 
 Q. Why did yotu tell me that they didn't begin to call Honan 
 "O. K." for, 'some time lafter yoiu found that book, unle>?s it 
 was true? 'A. Did I tell you that? 
 
 Q. You havie sworn here that you have told me thaft? Aj 
 Sworn there; no, sir. . , 
 
 By the Chairman': 
 
 Q. Yoiu swore here thajt you toM him that; why did you tell 
 him that, if it was nott, true? A. I don^t believe I swiore toi 
 thiait, sir. 
 
 The Ohairman. — Thiat is my recolleotion. You said, "Yesj 
 you told him that." 
 
 By Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. You didn't swiear to it beft)re me, but you have swomj 
 heire thait you did tell wie that, and I want to^ knowi why yoluj 
 told it to me, if it was no|t true? A. Well, as regards to the 
 " O. K." springing up 'after, siome weeks after, it was on account 
 of this book that the " O. K" was used at timies. 
 
 Q. It wais? A'. Yes, 'Sir; other timeei it might not have beefl 
 used for weeks at a time, on months. , 
 
 Q. It really was that thte men oalleid Hoirani " O. K." on account 
 of this, the "O. K." im this book; that is the fact? A. They 
 usied that, too. 
 
 Q. ThaA isi the truth? A. That is the truth; they took it 
 oait from the books, certaimly. 
 
 Q. Where did they get the book? A. I don't know where 
 it oiriginated. 
 
 Q. Didnft they get it from yotui? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Whcirie did they get it? A. I diom't know. 
 
 Q. You wiere there in the enginetliouse? A. Yes, sir. 
 
193 
 
 Q. Yom knew wHat thtey were cailliiig Mm "0. K." for? A. 
 I jildged it was fronl the book. 
 
 Q. Yooi Md! seen the "O. K.'s" in the boiok? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Yod call this book a joke on Hoiran; wihat wasi the joke' 
 on Horan? A. "Well, I don't know the joke; it was on Horan 
 before I wient there, I shoiild judges for I didn't know, exactly 
 when the joke originated, ait firat. 
 
 Q. Did anyboidy besides Campbell and you see this book? A. 
 I don't know as they did, sir. 
 
 Q. You have never heaml of anybody? A. I heard that Davis 
 saw the book. 
 
 Q. HeaiPd that Davis saw it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did .Davis tell yofu? A. "No, sir. 
 
 Q. Who told yon that? A. I don't know who: told me that. 
 
 Q. Can^t yolu tell ns what joke there was ini the boys calling 
 Horan " O. K." afteir this book was seen? A Well, I conld not 
 say exactly^ what the joke was. 
 
 Q. Had no idea? A. No; formed no idea. 
 
 Q. Not interested in jokes? A. No, sir — I can passi a joki^ 
 Or anything of that kind. 
 
 Q. A pretty good joker? A. Yes, sir; at times. 
 
 Q. Conboy, you nndeanstand that you' are under oath now, do 
 youi? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Yon have sworn to wh^t you are saying now? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Itell this committee if yoiui didn't nnderstand that that 
 book wias a list of payments made by the officers of youn bat- 
 talioin? A. No, sir; T did not. 
 
 Q. Had no idea of it? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Yon had no idea of what the figures, or the letterai " O. K." 
 referred tot? A. No, -sir. 
 
 Q. Yon never inquired ? A. No, su". 
 
 Q. Yon never had any curiosity about it? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. The qilestiom never arose in' youi* mind? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Never thought what that meant? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. Did any of the otheirt men. in the house talk with' yon 
 about what they meant? A. Nol, sir; I spoke to noi one. 
 
 Q. Didn't you ever hear a;ny conversation on that snbjeot? 
 A, No, siir; not from the men in the house. 
 
 Q. Or with^ Hanck? A. Well, I related the oonvensiation (B 
 had with Hanck. 
 
 Q. This book, which has been mlarked now, by the kindUess of 
 Mr. Rfdnes, Exhibit A for identlficaiioni a dark maroon color, 
 has the same extemial appearance, yon saiy, as the boo> '"rhich 
 you saw? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 F. 25 
 
194 
 
 Q. Were there any loose leaves in the book that you saw? A. 
 The book was in a bad condition; there was no leaves fell out of 
 it, while I had it in my hand. 
 
 Q. You did see the book was in a bad condition? A. Yes, sir; 
 it wasn't a new book, 1 know. 
 
 Q. Did you notice whether any leaves in it were loose? A, 
 I didn't pay particular attention, siTu 
 
 Q. Nome fell out? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You perceive that there is quite a number of loose leaves 
 in this book now? A. Yes, sir, 
 
 Q. Won't you look and see how many there are; count themi? 
 A. Oan't you count them. , 
 
 Q. Well, you can count them, can't you; you can coimt far 
 better than I? A, Five. ] ( 
 
 Q. Five loose leaves you find in it, do you? A. Yes, sio". 
 
 Q. Andi you have described how you ran over the book, the 
 different leaves; show how you did it; show the conunittee just 
 now how you ran over it? A. That way (illustrating); which- 
 ever side it was I opened it, I picked it up and ran over it, that 
 way (illustrating). 
 
 Q. Well, you held the book up i!n such a way that you could 
 siee this, page that was fuU of writing? A. Yes, sdr; that just 
 coime undjer — 
 
 Q. You didn't observe, in runining over the different pages of 
 thie book, at that time, that, any of them were loose? A. No, I 
 oan't say that I did. 
 
 Q. I understand you to say that you don't find in this boob 
 now the page that you saw in thei book which you folundi in the 
 engine-house at that tune? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. That page Is not here? A. I didln't recognize it in the 
 booik;no- 
 
 Q. I want to ask you one more question; why didi you tell me 
 that you foirmed t!he idea that this book was an assessmient 
 book, if yota never did foirm that idea? A. I don't believe I told 
 you that it was an assessment book; I did not form any idea that 
 it was an assessment book, or whiat it was. 
 
 Q. You didn't have any idea on the subject? A. I don't believe 
 I did. 
 
 Q. Don't yo^a know whether you] did or not? A. No^ sir. 
 
 Q. You don't know whether you did or not? A. No, sir; I did 
 niot; I had no idea when' I took thIe book up; I hajd no idea ito 
 regards to the book or the page oif the book, ajnd that is all I 
 knolw about it. 
 
 Q. You had no idea when you picked the book up? A. No, sir; 
 I had no opinion of it; what it contained. 
 
196 
 
 James J. Campbell, called as a witness, being duly sworn, 
 teistified as follows: i 
 
 Direct examination by Mr. Boot: , 
 
 Q. Campbell, you are a fireman in tbis city? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Wbat company? A. Twenty-five Engine. ^ 
 
 Q. How long have you been on the force? A. Thirteen years. 
 
 Q. You found a book in 25 Engine House? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When? A. That I couldn't say, what diay of the momth it 
 was. 
 
 Q. What momth was it in? A. I judge, about the month of 
 March. , 
 
 Q. What day in March? A. Thiat I couldn't state; I doji't 
 keep no tally. 
 
 Q. Early in March or the latter piart of March? A. I should 
 judge, about the middle or latter part; I couldn't exactly say. 
 
 Q. What sort of a book was it? A. A brown covered book; a 
 memorandum, book. 
 
 Q. Where did you find it? A. Under a little bench, 
 
 Q. Underneath? A. Eight under the bench; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. On the floor? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What time of day? A Between half-piast nine ajid 10 
 o'clock. 
 
 Q. Who w'as with yoiu? A. !No one but myself; I was cleaq^g 
 my horsesi, and after rubbing thte horses, I stooped, to the floor, 
 where I hlad my tools to clean the horses, and I seen this book 
 on the floor; picking the book up^ Engineer Daivis stooid about 
 two feet away from me; I saysi, "I womder who owns the book;" 
 and HoraiU was about four feet away, polishing his shoeis; Horan 
 turns around, and he says, "I'll take that; that's! mine;" I oomr 
 meniced to joke thie ^assistant foreman about the book; I says.: 
 "That must be a collector's book, Pat" 
 
 Q. That must be a oollectolr's boo^k? A. Yes, sir; I remarked 
 that about the book; then we hieard some rumors about paying 
 $45 and |30; Mr. Keagan came to the house and wanted to 
 loMM' if we found' a little book; I said, "Yes;" he says^ "What 
 was im this little book?" I told him, " I dotait^ remember what 
 was in this bbiok;" but I told him there was ;Bumors that the 
 officers was putting up $45 and the assistant foreman $30, out- 
 side of 28 Engine; I didn't see that in thisi book, but I hiea)rd 
 rumors ini the meanttime; then I had the president of the asso- 
 ciation coime to see me, about a week afterward — Mr. Clifford, 
 and he asked me what was in that little book; I said, "I didn't 
 pay no attention toi the litMe book;" and there was some talk 
 about v. lial the little took was worth; he advised me to go doiwn 
 
196 
 
 to Mr. Qulgg's office, to see Mr. Qiiigg; he mightfe bring me btefore 
 the grand jury; I said, "I will go down and see Mr. Quigg;" jD 
 went down and I seen Mr. Quigg, and pe refenred to the little; 
 booik againi, and asked me what was in the little book; I siaid; 
 "There. was nothing in the little booik at all;" he sayp, "Ym,. 
 are no use;" that is all I know about the book, until I got notice 
 to come down to Mr. Boot's office. 
 
 Q, G-o on? A. That's all; Mr. Boot called me down in hisi 
 office and they questioned me down there, anid oross-questiomedi 
 me down there. 
 
 By Mr. Bainee: , i 
 
 Q. Did he question you crdssly or cross-question you? A. 
 He did; very crossly; I will tell the truth; not him alome, but 
 three or four others. 
 
 By Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. You said to Horan, " This must be a little collector's' book, 
 Pat?" A. Something like that; I couldn't exactly say what it 
 was. 
 
 Q. Collector's book or assiessment book? A. Assessment book 
 Or collector's book; I don't know which. 
 
 '^. Either assessment book or collector's book? A. Yes, sin 
 
 Q. And you said that? A. I did. , 
 
 Q. That was when Hoiran said the book was Ms? A. Yes, sir; 
 not right away; I don't know whether it was right away or a 
 'few minutes afterward. 
 
 Q. Who was there when you said that? A. Engineer Davis. 
 
 Q. Engineer Davis and Horani? A. Yes, air. 
 
 Q. Nobody else? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Why did yom say that? A. Well, there was so much 
 rumors going around; we were cPaoking jokesi to' ome anothteir 
 all the time about it; there was sio much rumons going aroxmd); 
 the assistant foremen was Joiking with us, and we were jaking 
 with them;, amy little thing we would jolc© aboiut, and he would 
 did the same thing with us. 
 
 Q. You told Beagan, yolu say, that there was notlhing in thW 
 book? A. I didn't see nothing in the book, for I hadn't timie 
 enough to loiok at nothing in it. ; 
 
 Q. Did you look at the book? A. Just ais the leaf fell orer; 
 if you give me the book, I will explain blow the leaf fell ; there 
 was a rubWer band about it 
 
 Q. I don't know whetlher I have got the book or not; youi 
 sa^y the leaf fell over? A. Whefe the rubber was; when 1 
 piokedi it up, it went over; I hieddl it in my haadL 
 
197 
 
 Q. Did yOlu look at it? ^A. Just simply looked, and that was all. 
 
 Q. Yon just merely looked at it? A. Yes^ sir; didn't look at 
 it to identify righitly it was the book, to identify righitly whajli 
 was in the book. 
 
 Q. Yon couldn't identify rightly what was in; the book? lA.. 
 No, sir; I couldn't recognize what waa in the book. 
 
 Q. You wouldn't reieognize what was in the book? A. Ko, sir. 
 
 Q. Couldn't you identify anything that you isaw there? A; 
 Positively, I couldn't identify nothing. , 
 
 Q. Bulfc yoU' did see there letters and figures? A. I seen, in 
 my judgment, figures and lettera 
 
 Q. That is your judgment? A. Yes, sir; figures and lettersLi 
 
 Q. The best judgment you could form about what was therei 
 waiS that there was figures and letters? A. I judged there was. 
 
 Q. You idon't have much doubt about there being figures and 
 letters, do you? A I wasn't sure, because I didn't have long to 
 look at it 
 
 Q. Were they in ink or pencil? A. J*ad' pencil 
 
 Q. Lead pencil? A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How did you have hold of the book, when the cover fell 
 off? A. Just leave me have the book, and I will show you; 
 I picked it up off the floor, and it went over. , 
 
 Q. Just illustrate with this book (Exhibit A, for identifioa- 
 tionj)? A That way (illustrating); the rubber was om there 
 (indicating); it went over, in that way, in that fashiom. 
 
 Q. It fell over? A. Yesi, sir; and I says^ "I wonder who 
 ^ownis the book?" 
 
 Q. You held the bbok Ini one hand? A. I held the comb in' 
 this( hand, and' I p;icked up the book, and I says, "Who ownpi 
 the book?" 
 
 Q. Were there any Idose leaves ini it? A I didn't have lomg 
 enough hold of it; the cover fell downi this way. 
 
 Q. No leaf fell out? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you notice that any leaf was loose? A No, sir; X 
 didn't have it long entotagh in my hands^ and I handed it ovett-' 
 to Enigineer Davis, and Lieutenant Horan says^ " Thaf is mine; 
 I Willi tatoe it" , 
 
 Q. And it was after you had looked at it and had fomtned' 
 thiia judgment of yotam, that whiat you saw was figures andl 
 letters? A I saidl, "Theije was some writinig;" I judgie it is 
 figures audi lettersi. 
 
 Q. It was after you hJald' looked' at it and formed this judgmenti 
 of yours, that what you saw was figures and letters that youl 
 told Hottiani it must be a collection book or assessment booik, 
 was it? A. Well, I just said that; just jokinig with him.; I saysi, 
 " Pat, thils must he ai coUectop's book." 
 
198 
 
 Q. Noiw, tell me if thie figure® you saw thiene were figures mak- 
 ing up a single or a double column? A. I juidge it wa^' right 
 dtawn in rotatioin. i 
 
 Q. A ooiunm of figuipes? A. Noft) a Wliole column; there waei 
 omly abouU three oir four; I douildn't sayi hoiw, many there was 
 ini line, rightly. 
 
 Q. You (mildnj't say rightly? A. No^ sir; I couldn't, but ii\ 
 went right down straight , 
 
 Q. In a oolumn? A. In a ooluimn, on one side, I should judg^ 
 
 Q. On one side of the page? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. Were therei two figures to each number, like 45? A. H 
 couldn't siay that, whether there was or not; therei was figures, 
 but 1 didu^t take paxfticulair notLoe. 
 
 Q,. Whether this was a ooJummi? A. No^ sir. 
 
 Q. Didn/t take particular notice? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What was your judgment about it? A. Pigoresi and letters; 
 that was all! I could' say. 
 
 Q. Do you remembieir my asking you, oini this occasion, where 
 you thought I was so cross, whether the numibeirs were single 
 numbers oir double numberei? A, Yes, sdir. 
 
 Q. And you answered "Double numbers?" A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And th&it was true, wasn't it? A. Weld, the way you — 
 I ■oouldni't rightly tell you; I believe they were double numbers. 
 
 Q. That is now, the best of your belief? A. I think sc«; yei% 
 siir; double num.bers. \ 
 
 Q. Do you pemembeir my asking you this questiom: " Q. Were 
 they directly down one under the other? " A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And yOu answered, "A. Yes." A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That was true? A. Yea, isir. 
 
 Q. Do you remember my asking you this questioin: "Q. Were 
 the numibers up to 10, or about 10?" and you answered', "A 
 Big numibeifs; I didn't look eniough at them; to say; tihtey looked 
 like .35." A. Oh, I judge there was 35. 
 
 Q. What other numbers dioi you judge'there were? A. I could 
 not be mistaken; that the head number was 50 or 60; I wouldn't 
 be positiTifc 
 
 By Mr. Raines: 
 Q. How much? A. Fifty or 60; I wouldn't be positiire. 
 
 By Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. They were in a coHunnm, a double column, on the right-hand 
 side of the page, the extreme right-handi aide of the page? 
 A,. No, sir; left-hand side. , 
 
199 
 
 Q. Thie left-luaad side? A. The left-liand side; the rubber 
 fell down, and the Troiliag wasi liere (indiciating). 
 
 Q. Rightt there? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there isoaie kind of a ehieckmiark after the number? 
 A. There was soime scribbling; I couldn't rightly tell what it 
 wasi; glome soirt of a signature. 
 
 Q. Some kind of a 'signature? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Qk Wliiat 6io you mean by "signature?" A. Seratched off. 
 
 Q. Like a name? A. I ooiuldu't say that it was a name; 
 there was no name at all; there wasn't enoiugbi writing to be 
 a name. 
 
 Q. Did you siee any capital letters? A. I couldn't tell yaU|; 
 I didn't take notice wiietiher thiere were capital letters or not- 
 
 :Q. Do you rememben making this statement to me: "Q. Yofu 
 saw Hook and Ladden IsToi. 11 W the book? A. Yes." A. JL 
 oonildn't distinctly say to any number; I couldn't really identify 
 any number, that I could rfgktly say. ^ 
 
 Q. You saw "Hook and Ladder 11?" A. Well, If I said that, 
 1 oouldnf't rightly say; wh.at I meaui is I migM lataye told lyoui 
 that, but I couldn't identtify that. 
 
 Q. Winy did you tell me ithat, if you didn't meau it? A. 11 
 coiuldn't pick out "11" any mo^re than any other num.ber. 
 
 Q. You couldn't iSay whether it was " 11 " oir some other hooik 
 and laddem? A. No, sir; if I coUildl identify it ,m much, there 
 must seeml tO' be more into it 
 
 Q. But you are not sure about thte numbers? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is that the truth? A. Tlhat I cau' reicognize "hook anidi 
 ladder ;" no, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you rem.'embier making this statement toi me, in my 
 office: "Q. You saw 'the figures: 'and lettersi "H" and "L" ai^td 
 " 11 " and some figures after it? A. Yes, sir." Doi you remem^ 
 ber making that iSitatement? A. No, sir; you asked me about 
 some letters written) down that way. 
 
 Q. Do youi remember making this statement to me: " Q. We gofti 
 so far ihiat you saw letters toi the left, "H" and "L" audi 
 number "11;" "H. & L. 11," foir instance, and then following 
 the figures and then a checkmark? A. Yes, sir." Do you re- 
 member making that statement: "A. Hook and Ladder 11?" A. 
 The reason — I couldn't siay what the other letter was; I couldn't 
 say what the number was after that. 
 
 Q. You saw the letter "H? " A. There was some other letter 
 behind it, but what it was I oouldn?t tell you; wherei the "H" 
 was SOI big, I couldn't see. 
 
 Q. The other letter behind it; you mean the next after that; 
 an "H," and then another letter after it? A. I don't kmowi 
 what that letter was. 
 
200 
 
 Q. Why did you tell me that it was an " L? " A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. Welli then, foUowmg tliis "H" and th.e other letter, wMchi 
 ylolu don^t reiaember, theme were figures? A. Thiere wais .am "E." 
 
 Q. And thie^n the figurpsi? A. Thiere was a kind d scratdi-off. 
 
 Q. A check ? A. Yes, fiir. 
 
 Q, And figures? A' I don't know aboiut any figures. 
 
 Q. WMch, side ol tke "H" and tihe othier letters were thie 
 figures? A. In tke front. 
 
 Q. In tEe front? A. ]S'oi; thte "H" and thie other tetter in 
 tiiie front, and the figures after it; yesv sir. 
 
 iQ. And th^n what you liave described as a kind of a scraitchr. 
 off? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Dp you rememiber making this ettatement to me: "Q. Letters 
 amid figures, and opposite a clieckniark? A. Yes, sir. Q. Letters, 
 so far as yonr eyes could see, referring ta engine and hook and 
 ladder companies? A. Something that way." A. Well, Ij 
 couldn't identify no "E;" all I could recognize was a big "H." 
 
 Q. Do you remember^ this question and answer? A. I don't 
 Remember that; no, sir. ^ 
 
 Q. "Q. Letters and figures, and otppiosite a checkmark? A. 
 Yes, sir." A. Letters and figuresi. 
 
 Q. That i^ right? A. Yes, sir^ 
 
 Q. " Q. Letters, as fair as your eyes could judgei, referring toi 
 engine and hook and ladder companies? A. Something that 
 wiay. ' A. I couldn't say engine companies. j 
 
 Q. Do you remember making that statemenit to me? A. No, 
 sir; I don't. 
 
 Q. Well, is not that true? A. What is that? 
 
 Q. That what you saw there seemed to have reference to 
 engine and hook, and ladder companies? A. I couldn't say 
 engine companies I could only say that I saw a big "Hi;" 
 I could only remember a big "H;" what was after it, I couldn't 
 rightly remember. 
 
 Q. Do you remember making this statement: "Q.Eef erring 
 to no names, but letters and figures, which referred to engine 
 companies and to hook and ladder companies? A. I almost 
 think that was the; way it waa" A. I didn't see noi name. 
 
 Q. That is the way it was, isn't, it? A. There was no names; 
 I seen no names at all. 
 
 Q. That is what this says, that you saw letters and figturesi 
 which refenred to companies? A. I seen letters. 
 
 Q. And figures? A. I conldn't identify figures; I could only 
 identify ai big "H." 
 
 Q. Do you remembering makingi this statennent: "Q. Opposite 
 these letters and figures, which yora thought referred to engine 
 
201 
 
 comipanies and hook and ladder compatiies, im your battalion, 
 was this coliimni of figtrea a double coliumi of flgraneis? A. Yes, 
 sir; " A. Not double colunms, siugle ftblumnsi. 
 
 Q. That is corneot, is it? A. Yeisi, sir; I did saiy there wa^ 
 double figures. - 
 
 Q. " Q. WiMclx you underistooid, either then or( soon after, weve 
 45 or 30?" A', From the rumorsi I heard going arounidl 
 
 Q. "Q. Anjd then, oppositei all thesie figures in that oolumnl, 
 there was ai checkmairk of some kind? A. Yes, ,sir." A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. "Q. "WMch you, either then op, soon after, understood to 
 be '0. K?' A. Yes, sir." A. From what I heard them holler- 
 ing about " O. K. ;" yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You understood that thisi btok which you saw there wasi 
 the same book that Conboy saw? A. I didn't seei Conboy have 
 it at all. 
 
 Q. You understood ithait this was the same book tha/t Conboy 
 'Saw? A. Yes, sir; the assistant foreman iSiaid it was the same 
 book, the only book he had, and he lost it oin, ,the floor. 
 
 Q. The assistant foreman said that? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When did he ,say that? A. There was soi much talk aboujti 
 it; he say®, "Here's the book there's soi much talk about;" we 
 used to joke about his little collector's book, and he laid it on 
 fthe table, and he says, " There, if any of you fellows wants it|oi 
 look at that book, you can look at it;" no one' picked it up to) 
 look at it. 
 
 ,Q. Now, wh<y did you tell about tMs? A. About the book? 
 
 Q. Yes? A. Well, the only one I can remember telling aboiut 
 it is Beagan. 
 
 Q. Did you tell Stevenson about it? A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Did you tell Reagan about it, in Stevenison's pjresence? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where? A. In the engine-room. 
 
 Q. How long after you saw the book? A. About a week; 
 Beagan came down and sent up for Conboy, and sent me fott 
 Sitevenson; Ste'vensoni went out, and he came back and said 
 Beagan was on the comer; I told him to bring hkmip; Beagan 
 come up, and he asked me about thte little book; siaysi I, "Yes; 
 we found a little book;" in the meantime, we got rumoms all 
 around abtotut $45 and |30; "Well," he says, "isi there anything 
 in the book?" T siays, "Not in tiuat book;" we had heard it 
 rumored, all aroiund, that it was $40 for the oflioers and $30 
 for the asisistant foremen, and that they were all in it, except 
 the man in 28 Engine. 
 
 Q. All except a man in 28 Engine? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who is he? A. The assistajnit foremani in 28. 
 
 P. 26 
 
202 
 
 Q. Whiat is hia namae? A. Malnam 
 
 Q. All in it, but MahfoM? A. I aim only saying thiat we heand 
 it rumonedi all aronmdi audi I heiard it aJl going around, in the 
 enlgine-hwuse; wiiere it oame in the housej, we don't know yet 
 
 Q. Whien did you hear that? A. "We heard that rtihree ot four 
 days after the book — after the rumons of the book came laPOToiid. 
 
 Q. How lo!ng after you foomld the book? A. It might have 
 beeni ttoee Or four days, I shoiuld judge; I am nof positive. 
 
 Q. Did Davis look into the book? A. No^ sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of anybody, but yooi and Comboy, looking 
 into that? A. I never heard about Oonboy, until I heard it 
 here to-day. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of anybody else whio saw it? A, No, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn't yoiu tell Eeagani — yoiu know Fireman Eeagam? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. He is am officer of your association? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The Mutual Benevolent Assoiciation? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you have spoken of hisi com,ing to the emgine-housie? 
 A. I spoke of it? 
 
 Q. Didn^t yon speak of his coming to the engine-hiouse? Ai, 
 Yesi; J said hie come to the engine-house. 
 
 Q. Didn't you tell- him what you had seen in that book? lAj. 
 I don't relmiember telling him I seen it; I remember telluag him 
 what the report was that was going aroumd. 
 
 jQ. Didnft Beagan say to you that hie heard that you anidi 
 Fireman CJonboy had foiund a boobi and looked thwough it? A. 
 Me and Ctonboy? 
 
 Q. Yes? A. No,, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn/t he say that he had heard that yon looked thrauigj^l 
 it? A. Yes'; Oh, yes; Beagan did. 
 
 Q. Heard that you had looked tihrongh it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn't you tell him that, in that book, there was the name, 
 or official designatioto^ of each officer in the Sirth Battalioni, 
 ■ndth 130 opposite each assistant foreman, and $40 lopposite each 
 foreman^ with the exceptioni of Assistant Foreman Mahon, oppo(- 
 site whose name was "N. G.?" A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You didn't tell himl that? A. No, sir; I told him that we 
 hieard that in the house. 
 
 Q. You heard thatt in the house? A. Yes, sir; I didn't tell 
 him that it was in the book. 
 
 Q. Was it true, that you heand it in the house? A. I onljyi 
 heard it going around; I ftold him that, but I didn't tell him 
 it was in the book, for I didn't see it in the book. > 
 
 Q. Yon heard it going aroiund, that it was in the book? ' lAj. 
 Oh, no; I heard it goinig aronnd; I didn't fcnoiw whetheri it waid 
 in the book; it wasn'it where I seen it 
 
203 
 
 4 
 
 Q. Well, yo[u talked to Eeagapi aften you saw tte biook, didn^t 
 you? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did whiat" you' told Mm differ from tlie recolleotioii yoiui 
 Iliad of thle botok? A. Yes, sir; oertainly; wiiat I seen in the 
 book was only just a few figures; and I told h i m, whajt I heard' 
 going aronmd the house. 
 
 Q. Yoiu told him the truth, didn't you; you told Eeagan the 
 truth? A. About which? 
 
 Q. Whatever you told Mim w,asi true, wasn't ift? A. Yes, sir;, 
 but not the way you are puttiuig it to" me; I didn't meau it is 
 true that I iseeu that in the book, 
 
 Q. What you told EeaganI was true? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If you said to Beagau that the names of the officers Ib 
 the Ststhl Battalion were in that book, with |30 opposite eacjhi 
 assistant foreman', and |45 opiposiite each foreman, except Assiat- 
 lamt Forefman Mahon; was it ti^uie? A, It was' not true; I told 
 htm that, but not that it wasi in the book. 
 
 Q. You didn't tell him that that was in the book? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. That $45 wiais oipposite each' foremajn? A- ^o? sir. 
 
 Q. And that "N. G." was opposite Mahon's name? A. No, 
 siir; I toldi him' I heard ereiry foreman was putting up |45, and 
 assistant foremeu |30, except Mahiou; but not in the book. 
 
 Q. Wheire did you hear that? A. I heard it around the house. 
 
 Q. When? A. I heard it different times. 
 
 Q. Fromi whom? A. I can't rightly recollect frotm whoimL 
 
 Q. Can you tell any one? A. No, sir; I can't, rightly; it wa^ 
 emgine-'hiouse rumors; that is all; it might have beeni heand 
 outside iand brought into our house. 
 
 Q. You cian't teJl anybody from whom you got that informar 
 tioin? A. I couldn't rightly pick out anyone. 
 
 Q. Was this about the officers putting up |45, and lassisitant 
 foremen putting up $30, so universal tiat you: can't give the 
 name of anyone? A. I heard it time and time again, botihl 
 iniside anid outside of the house. 
 
 Q. Where? A. Different flremem. 
 
 Q. Different companies? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. All thTOUgh the fOrce? A. Whatever men would meet, 
 they would all be talking about it. , 
 
 Q. All talking about it? A. No; I would: meet a fellow; that 
 was talkinlg about it, and he wiould isay, "Did you hear any- 
 thing 'about any officer putting up? " .and I would tell him "Noi;" 
 I didn't know njothinig about it until I heard it in our house 
 afterward. 
 
 Q. Can't you tell me when it was you heard it ini your house? 
 A. I could not. 
 
204 
 
 Qv Can't give me any idiea? lA.' N©; I vmldn't; tli© biggesit 
 part I know about tlie payimg is fnoum Mr. Bea^a; ha told me 
 |60 for asisfetajit foremem; so I says, "Now, we will spring a 
 gooid joke on Pat;" we will say to Pat, "Yooi have got to make 
 two colleicitions, 45 and 30." 
 
 Q. Wiheni was (that? A. Mr. Beagan was there. 
 
 Q. WhenI was that? A. I don^t kadw what day it was. 
 
 Q. "What month? A. Last montbL 
 
 Q. Thie time you found the hook? A, No; after, when he 
 bronight that information down. 
 
 Q. Do you remember Horan being called' "O. K." after thiat 
 bobk was found? A. I don't remember him being called! 
 apecially that; no. i 
 
 Q, Horan's being called "O. K.?" A. Evca^ time he woul|di 
 go to| the telephone, he would holler that. 
 
 Q. No recollection of Ma being called that? A, No, sir; not 
 specially. , 
 
 Gross-examination by Mr. Bainesi: 
 
 Q. When; you went dbwn to Mr, Boot's office, yon were exam- 
 ined at considerable length? A. Yes', sir. 
 
 Q. In what way? A. Well, I had to answer Mr. Boot, and 
 Mf, Quigg, and two other gentlemen was there, and Mr. Haiuck 
 and Mr. Eeagani. 
 
 Q. Did they all put questions? A, Well, what Mr. Boot and 
 Mr. Quigg didn't know, Mr, Hauck and Mr. Beagan would tell 
 th'ei other gentlemen. 
 
 Q. Soimeitimes you didni't have the informatiOin they wanted? 
 A. No, sir; I did not. 
 
 Q. What did they islay to youi then? A. They would keepi 
 puUmg at me. 
 
 Q. Youi sometimes didn't then satisfy them? A. Well, as far 
 as I know. 
 
 Q. Then, what did they say tol you? A. Well, some part of 
 the time — 
 
 Q. Please tell us; we want to know how witnessesi are iservedi? 
 A). Well, they asked me tbi tell tN^hat I know about, this little 
 bock, and! I told them. 
 
 Q. Well, when you couldn't tell a fact, as you say, thJeni what 
 wasi said to you? A. He toldl me he knewi Iwias telling a lie, 
 and I toldl him I wasn't dtting anything of the kind. 
 
 Q. Did they tell you you were lying? A. Well, almost; amdi 
 they wanted to malte me say I knew what was in; the book, and 
 I didn't 
 
205 
 
 Q. Audi, between those remarkB toi you, they got down some 
 questions and answers? A. I don^t know about that. 
 
 Q. Did some of these underlinigs use profane language in 
 regard to tlie matter? A. No, sir; noit to me. 
 
 William H. SteTsenson, called as a witness, being duly sWotm, 
 testifled as follow®: 
 
 Direct examination by Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. You are a fireman in this city? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In) what company? A. Engine Company No'. 25. 
 
 Q. Engine Company No. 25? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long have you been m that company? A. I have 
 been in that company three yeare last January, befoire. 
 
 Q. How long have you been on the force? A. In the fire 
 dlepartniemt, four years last February. , 
 
 Q,. You heard about this book? A. Rumors goinig around; 
 that's ail. 
 
 Q. Did you hear Campbell, who was jus.t on the istamd, tell 
 what he saw in that book? A. No^ sir; the only words I heiaird 
 Campbell remark was the day Eea,gan' came to the house. 
 
 Q. Yes? A. Eeagam asked Fireman Campbell about the book; 
 apd Campbell told himi a few lettens was all he seen; then 
 Eeaigan commenced to explain toi him about the officers paying 
 some assessment for an inicirease of salary, of $90, and f 60 ; |90 
 for the lofficers, and f60 fotr the asisistant foremen; then he anid 
 Keagan had the conversation between themselves, and I didn't 
 take much notice about the rest of it; that was all the cremarksl 
 I listened to. 
 
 Q. Did you he^ar a conversationi between Conboy and Campbell 
 abbtut what thsy saw in that book? A. No, sif. 
 
 Q. Did you hear a comversartion between Conboy land Beagan 
 about Mahoin? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you tell me that you idid? A, No, sir; not between 
 thlem two. 
 
 Q. Between whom? A. The only conversation I heaird was 
 witlh Campbell and Reagan. 
 
 Q. Reagan and Camipbell? A. Yes, sir; the only 'conversation, 
 I heand, with referemce to that; lit may be a mistake in the 
 papers there. 
 
 Q. Well, you have given all thie conversation youi have heaird 
 between Campbell; andi Reaigam? A. Yes, sir; the only time (I 
 ever seen him was the tune he came to our houscL 
 
 'Q. Rea^ani? A. Yes, sir; Reagan; at our house, I heai^di thb 
 (somveiHation in regard to .this book. 
 
206 
 
 Mr. Eaimies. — Iti does seem fo me that we liave wasteid! tiMe 
 enougli over that memorandxim book and that oiup friends have 
 got in eTiden-ce everything that goes to (the point of this investi- 
 gation, and goes within a quarter of a mile of it. This is Satur- 
 day night, and my friend is tuiming the leaves of some stenloh 
 graphic. notes taken, in his office, to find oitt something ahout ai 
 book that has already oocnpied the whole of the afternoon, 
 and we have got nothing ont of it yet. And it does seem, to 
 me that my friend diould get some evidenioe pertinent to this 
 inveatiga,tio)n, and that the time should anrive, in the lapse of 
 days and months, when these gentlemeni oni the other sidle 
 should have a' chance to give some evidence. Now, I ,sayi, and 
 I isay it conscientLously, and I say it firmJy, and I say it with 
 a protfoumd oonviotion that my friend, Eoot, shoiuld, after the 
 thnee or foTir days that this imvestigatiom has taken, that he 
 ishoTild get in some evidence, and give us a 'chanoe to adduce 
 some; and if my friend) is not engaged in killing time, amd 
 protracting this investigation with a. view to depriving these 
 gentiemien of the privilege of being heajrd upon this investiga- 
 tion, he roetrtainly is not showing it by the way in which he ils 
 sticking to this memorandum book, this afternoon. 
 
 Mr. Eoot. — I suppose it devolves upon me to say something 
 about this evidence. AH we have shown about the book js 
 that this officer, Horan, had a memorandum book which com- 
 tained letters and flgnres, that produced, certainly, the impres- 
 sion upoh the minds of the men who saw it that he had a 
 list of asisesisments or payments by the officers of his battalion 
 for the purpose of affiectimg this bill; and that the boojk, which 
 is produced as the book they saw, and which, it will appear, wasi 
 the book pToduced to a commissioner of the Are depantlment, by 
 Hoiran, as the book they saw, if it be the book, has had remocved 
 from it the tnemorandumj which the men took to be the memo- 
 randum of asisesismentst 
 
 The Chairman. — I can see the relevancy of it. 
 
 Mr. Eolot. — You can see what kind of witnesses I have had 
 to try to get evidence ftrom, how unwilliing they were to appean 
 I put this witness on the stand, under the imp.resision that he 
 was able to give a conversa,tion by these unwilling witnesses, 
 right after the transaction, in which he told fully what was in 
 that boolv; and T propose to call another witness to do it, if I 
 am permitted by the committee, and I believe the committee 
 will permit me to, as I know they want to get at the truthi. 
 
 Mr. Eainesi — I merely wish to suggest that there is* a maiv 
 here named Horan, about whose book thisi testimony is being 
 taken; and, for the purpose of seeing what is in i^ why not 
 
207 
 
 ihave this man Horan come to the stand, whether there Is a| 
 leaf or leaves missing, and tell what was in it; and then, ini 
 the usual way, if you can contradict him by any of the other 
 of these gentlemen, go, on toi contradict him, and then we will 
 know what the testimony is. 
 
 Mr. Boot — I am not such an idiort, nor is my friend, in his 
 prajctice, as to call the accused person, for the purpose of makingi 
 proof against himself. 
 
 Mr. Haines. — But he is not accused. 
 
 Mr. Boot — He is accused; he isi accused of being a party to 
 a conspiraity to raise a corrupitiom fund and influence legislation, 
 and T proive that there was such a conspiracy. I don't propose 
 to pirove it by him. 
 
 The Chairman.— We will proceed showing what wasi in it, for 
 the purpose of proving a fact in the case, if money was raised 
 a,nd officers got it. And, if the officer had' such a book, of course,; 
 he! is called upon toi aoeount for> it; but be as expeiditious as 
 you possibly can, in that direction. T apprehend we are getting 
 along as fast as we can. 
 
 Oos»iexamina,tion by Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. Well, now, when yon were down in Mr. Roofs office, under 
 examinatiota, you told that story- there? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long were you questioned? A.- I was there about 
 30 or 2.5 minutes. 
 
 Q. And they questioned yon? A. Yes, sir; both Mr. Boot 
 and Mr. Quigg and a stenographer siat alongside of me, taking 
 it down. 
 
 Q. And when you. got through, what was said toi you? A. 
 Thtey told me to go on out; that it was all right. 
 
 Q. Eh? A. To goi on o^ut; that it was all| right. 
 
 Redirect examination by Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. Did Oonboy and Campbell say anything about " O. Kj" in 
 the book? A. That has been rumored thromgh the whole depart- 
 ment, about that, from the Battery to Harlem. 
 
 Q.) About the "O. K." in, that book? A. No', sir; outside; |[ 
 didn't know what was in the b!pok, for I never seen the book. 
 
 Q. Did they say anything about the "~N. G-." in the) book? 'A/. 
 No, sir; yOu asked me albout that day before yesterday, and pR 
 told jon I knew nothing about it 
 
 By^ the Chairman: 
 
 Q. ^Tiat do you mean by saying that " O. K." wasi known from 
 the Battery to Harlem? A. If firemen go anywhere, they ask, 
 "W'hatis thte"0. K?" , ! 
 
208 
 
 Q. Whiat dk) yotu meam by the "O, K.?" A. That I cooildn^t 
 poiHsibly say- 
 
 Q. Did you hear anything' aboirt that befoi^e the oonversationi 
 about thils book? A. No, sir; I never heard anything about it. 
 
 Q. The " O. K." phrase got through; the department after the 
 finding of this book? A. That I coialdni't say. 
 
 Q. Had you ever heard of it before? A. Yea, sir. 
 
 Recroiss-examination by Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. Was that a nickuaime? A. A nlckniame they had on him; 
 they had different names on every man in the house, 
 
 Q. Bow long hjas he been called by the nickname "O. K." 
 Horan? A As far as I knotw, it is th.e last two 'or thiree months 
 I heard it; but I heard it moire and more this last month. 
 
 Q. And do you know what it originates from? A. No, sir;; J 
 do not. . I 
 
 Q. And do you know whether he has a peculiar way of ringingi 
 off at the 'phone, whether he always says "O. K.?" A. After 
 hie is throiuigh; yes. 
 
 Q. Is iliere soone peculiar way of saying it that the boys 
 holller " O. K." at him for? A. I guess it is on aicoount of thait, 
 too; they might call him. j 
 
 Timothy Reagan, called as a witness', being duly swoun, testi- 
 fled as follows: 
 
 Direct examination by Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. You are an officer of thte Mutual Benevolent Assoqiationi? 
 A I am not an officer; I am a member of the legislative cottn- 
 mittee. 
 
 Q. You had an interest in' the firemen's bill? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did ydu' have a talk with Firemian Campbell as to what 
 he saw m this book thialt we have been talkimg about in iihia 
 testimony? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When did you have that talk with liim? A. On the 21sitl 
 of March!. 
 
 Q. Of this, year? A. Of this. year. 
 
 Q. Where was it? A. In the engine-house. Fifth street, near 
 Finsttl avenue. 
 
 Q. Twenty-five Eniglne? A Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you what he saw im the book? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did he tell yoti he saw in the boofe? Aj. He told 
 me that he saw there th'e name of eacb officer in that battalion', 
 with loppoisilfce theiiir names 35 amdl 45, with the exoeiptance pit 
 EdHvard MaliOii, oppiosite whose naime was "If. Q." 
 
209 
 
 Q. Did lile say wbat wias otppwite the mame of tli'e otihers, 
 wMoh dUd not have the letters "K Q-.?" A. He said that otp- 
 posiiite thel name of eaoh asisiatant foipeman' was 30, and opipoHiife 
 each foreman was 45. 
 
 Q. You isaid, a momexut ago, 35 and 45; yorai now say 30, fori 
 Gonrectiom of 35? A. Thirty and 45; asisistamt foreman, 30; and 
 foremam, 45. , 
 
 Q. And were thiere any letters'; did, he say lanything ahoiut any 
 letters? A. Each had under it that ' O. K.," except the " IST. G." 
 
 Q. Exeepit Maihon? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he desoribe the book and tell yoiui what kind of la 
 little book it was? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did he say? A. He eiMd it was a book about fouij 
 by six inchfeig, of a dark reddish coHor. i 
 
 Q. Did you hear Ooniboy tell about the book? A. Noi, sir. i 
 
 Cnosa-examination by Mr. Balnea: 
 
 Q. You heard Oaimpbell state that what he said to you wasi 
 that there wae a numor around th'at they were payingi, assist- 
 ant foTemenl 30; and foiremjen 45, an assessment, and that he 
 told you of stich a irumor, pir you told himj did you hjean Osampf 
 bell's 'Statement? A. He spoke moib of rumors. 
 
 Q. Did yoli hear his istartement on the witne'ssi stand? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And' he said thiat he didn't tell you that he saw that in) 
 Ithe book, but that it was rumored around? A. He told', me hiei 
 saw it in the book. 
 
 QL And he didn't tell you it was a rumor that he hteard, as 
 far ae the' ftgniires are conoerned? A. 'Not, sir. 
 
 Q. But that he saw it In the book? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. How miany men havle you taken down to Mr!. Quigg'si 
 of&ce? A. I haven't taken otne man to Mr. Quigg's ofBce. 
 
 Q. How many have you goine theme with? A. Perhiaps four 
 or five. 
 
 Q. Four or five? A. Yeis, sir. 
 
 Q. How many have you heard examined wMJie you were 
 there? A. I heard noine, in Mr. Quigg's oflce; I never heard 
 one man examiu'ed in Mr. Quigg'is office. 
 
 Q. Did' anyone make statementsi in Mr. Quigg's ofBce? A. 
 I heard them tell sometMng about matters that were going on. 
 
 Q. Now, at Mr. Boioit's office, how many have you heard 
 q'uestione'dl there? A. I heard tiioae who were on the witness 
 stand to-day, Oampbell — 
 
 Q. Yets? A. Oomboy, and Mr. Stevens'On, Fireman; Stevenson. 
 
 Q. Yes; amid you have busied yourself in getting at< informar' 
 F. 2T 
 
210 
 
 tiom and taking it to thtelse gentlemen, hjaven't you? A. Any- 
 whepes I found a compladint, it was my duty, if I had tiime myself, 
 to ga andj apeaik about it to Mr. Quigg, especially lafter the biU 
 in the Legislature Iiad come to a sttandstill, whieni tlie amend'- 
 ment was attacihed. 
 
 Q. Aatei you Engineer Eeagan, of Engine 44? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Mentioned by Mr. MoOabe, to Mr. LaGrange, as a member 
 of the colmmattee? A. Yies, sir. 
 
 Q. Two yearis ago? A. Yes^ isiir. 
 
 Q. At the time the $2,500 was paid to Mr. McManus^ aocordiing 
 to the statement of Mr. McCabte to LaGrange? A. YeiS', sir. 
 
 Q. Are you that mam? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. You were a member of the committee, were yo«.? A 
 Yes, sir. , 
 
 Q. Was the money raiseid in) tlhat way for those pfuirposies? 
 A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Werte you in any way related to the handling of $21,500 ait 
 thialti time? A. The which? 
 
 Q. The assessment, la* the time, for legislative purposes? A, 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q, Or olC the paymenit? A. Or of the pa<yment 
 
 Q. Of f2,500 at thart time? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Yoruj didn't yodirself handle it in any way? A. Noi, sir^ 
 
 Q. What office did youi hoild, if any, aJt that time? A. I tHiinkl 
 I. was yice-papeisident of the aissiociartioto that year. 
 
 Q. Vice-president? A. Yies^ air. 
 
 Q. Anid, as suich, a member of the committee? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. And you say your committee didn't have anything to do 
 with handling sudh an 'assessment? A. No, sir. 
 
 IQ. Or arraniglng for the paying of it out? A. Noj, sir. 
 
 Q. Or with the paying of it out? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or with talking with' anybody in connection with thiei 
 flremien/s matters at Albany? A. No, sir; but I have talkedl 
 with people. 
 
 Q. Eut n'pit with referenuoe to any money being paid, at tha,t 
 •time? A. No, eir. 
 
 Q. And $2,500 was not, to your knowledge, paid, at thati 
 tim©? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And the istatemient of MeOabe to LaGrange, in that resipeict, 
 is false, slo far as yoiu know? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, now, in 1893, were yoiu conneoted witthi any $2,500 
 transaction? A. No, isir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of dne? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. In 1894, were you oonneoted with thb |2,500 toanisaction? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
211 
 
 Q. In conniection withi thie firemen's isalary bill? A. No, sir, 
 we had' noi salary bill in 1894. 
 
 Q. Or any other matter of legislation affectiag the fire depant- 
 mentl? A. No other matter; I was conlnected with a pensioin bill 
 of odirs. 
 
 Q. Was money raised by assessment with reference to that 
 bill? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Were yoii a committeeman on that smbject? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Of the bill? A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Wais momiey raised for any legisliative pnrpose, last year,, 
 amoag the flreonen? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yotu make any arrangement of the payment for snidh a 
 purtpose? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And inj respect to all these matfcensi tbhe statement of 
 McCabe, as given; on thie stand by LaGrange, is false? A. Yes, 
 
 *!'• ' ^ ! ' ■; 1 
 
 Q. And yon know it? A. Yee^ sir. 
 
 By the Qhairman;: 
 
 Q. YoTi have been quite interested in the bill before the Legist 
 lature, to increiase the firemen's, salaries.? A. Yes, air; thisi last 
 bill, yes, 'sir. 
 
 Q. And then when this amendment was offered on behalf of the 
 officers, to increase their salaries, yOu regarded that as aja un- 
 friendly act by the officers? A. YeiS', sir. 
 
 Q. In conneotiotti with thaJt, you heard these rumors, all about 
 the raising of money for the pmrpose of having that passed? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yo'u investigate them all you could, to find oiit what 
 truth there was in them? A. I (tried to; investigate them; [I 
 perhaps talked to somebody a littlel of it, Ho try to investigate. 
 
 Q. Then yoiu did what you could to find out whether or not 
 there was any truth in them? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. And yoiu communioated' with Mr. Quigg and Mr. Boot? A. 
 Mr. Quigg. 
 
 Q. Now, hotw long have you bteien engaged in making those in- 
 'vestigations? A. Well, since, I think, the 26th of March. 
 
 Q. Did you during that time, — can you now give the com- 
 mittee the name of any person thait you knew who paid any 
 money, or who was called upon toi pay any money for thisI pur- 
 pose? A. I don't know one. 
 
 Q. Did you tell all thas infolrmation that you have heard to 
 any of the fire commissioners? A. I was before Mr. La G-range, 
 Presidentt La Grrange, about a week ago, I guess, and I gave bini 
 
212 
 
 just the inf oirmatiom. Wbai I am giring here, about this matteip, 
 pertaining to this toookj that waei all. 
 
 Q. How ouamy people have you' iniquired from as to whether m 
 not any money had beem raised'? A. Well, I made inquirieia 
 mostly from firemen I would meet 
 
 Q. Well, the money was supposed to be raised among the 
 officers? A. It wais supposed to be. 
 
 Q. Did you inquire oif any of the officers? A. Well, all the 
 officers I spoke to on thei matter said they hadn't got ai penny. 
 
 Q. All denied it? A. That tthey hadn't; thjey all denied it. 
 
 Q. Did any of theiu admit that they had made a contribution? 
 A. No, sir; all they evertoldi me was that they had not. 
 
 Q. What diO you know about ,tMs man HJonan being known in 
 the department as " O. K." Horan? A. I don't know anything 
 about it 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear it? A. Well, it might have been broiught 
 to my ears, but I never paid any attenition to it. 
 
 Q. You are not a menaber of the company of which he is an 
 officer? A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Raines: ^ 
 
 Q. Mr. lia Gnange sent for yom to come there, I siuppoise? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — I have the papers here which were. left with me 
 by Mr. La Grrange, this miotming, and I would like to know who 
 wUl be the custodian of thJem. 
 
 Tihe Chaiirmjan. — The members of thiel committee. Mr. Root, 
 how much time will you want to put in such evidence as you 
 can get. ' 
 
 Mr. Root. — ^Well, I have got to sit down and look it over. 
 
 (The heairing was then adjourned' until Friday morning, Ma^ 
 3, 1895, at the same place, at 10 a. m.) 
 
 Friday, May S, 1895. 
 The committee reconvened pursuant to adjournment. 
 Present. — Senajtor O'Connor, ohairman; Senators Pound," 
 Oantor andl Mullln. 
 
 Richand Gorman being duly sworni as a witness and examined 
 by Mr. Root, testified as follows: i 
 
 Q. You aire fireman of Engine Company 14? A. Yesi, sir. 
 Q. That is located whiere? A. Eighteenth' street. 
 Q. How long have you been in the department? A. Twelve 
 years. 
 Q. Do you kn6w Fireraam Oampibelll of the 25th? A. Yes, sir. 
 
213 
 
 Q. Did yooi ever bave a talk with liim abbiut a me'inoiraiidutmi 
 book of Ajsisisitaiit Foreman Hoipani? A. Yes, ®ir^ 
 
 Q. Wiien was it? A. Some time ini March. 
 
 Q. Of this year? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Wlieine was it? A. At the quartersi of Engine Company 25. 
 
 Q. State wtoait there was about it? A. I was. over thjere re- 
 lieving tlie engineer. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — Befoi-e going into ftirther rumors and hearsa,}- 
 evidence in regard to what paople said about that book, I think 
 the people who saw it should be piroduced. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — ^We will take it under the ruling of the 
 oommittee. We will assume that the istate of feeling existed 
 that money was being raised. 
 
 Mr. Rooib. — I would like to make a STiggestion as to the signifi- 
 cance of this evidence. It has beien proved that this book was 
 found; that after it was found, that the main who looked into it 
 and saw jvhat was in- it, charged hikn with the fact that it was 
 an assessment book, and that book appears to be mutilated. 
 There has been toirn, ont of it a page 'containing etutries ( which 
 are said to have been the entries in question here. 
 
 Mr. Eaines. — My friend shonld confine Mmself to what he has 
 proved. There, has been no proof of the mntilation of that book 
 or the tearing out of a leaf. It may be that there) willi be evir 
 dence given that leaves are missing, biit until that is dome, my 
 friend should not arguie in regard to' that. There is anotheir 
 matter not pertinent toi this subject with' which I wish tO' be 
 oonrected, in view of the fact that it has been incorrectly re^ 
 ported in the newspapers. It was istated by Ofiiceir Buirns npon 
 the witness stand that the share of the fire department in the 
 2 per cent, tax had come to amount to about |122,000 a year, 
 and that if the bill extending the time for giving that toi the 
 exempts was beaten, in 1897 that sumj wonld fall toi the active 
 firemen. By some error of the reporters, who must have miis^ 
 xinderstood that evidence, it has gone intoi the papers that that 
 amount was raised fon comuipt purposes. How it was misunder- 
 stood, except by the failure of itihe irepoirters to hear correctly, 
 I do not iSiee, but the fact it was so miennderstood shauld have 
 public coiTiection. 
 
 By Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. State the cooaversaition' vdth Campbe'E? A. I came over to 
 relieve the engineer for breakfast, and Campbell told me he had 
 f oaxnd Assistant Foireman Horan's book, and hei says, " What do 
 you think of it?" and I said "What kind of a book?" and he 
 says, "A book in regard to officers raismg money foir increase 
 
21^ 
 
 oif salaa?ies," and I isiays, "Hoiw do yoni know that?" amdi lie says, 
 " Every oiffloeE is marked," lie sayis " Tine assistaiit foremen, PO, 
 aaid thie foireman $45, all except Ed Meelhian, who is omarkedi ' K 
 G.' He is of Engine Company 28." 
 
 Q. Did hie tell yon when it was he found the book? A. I was 
 oveir there every day, and iit must have h€5en that same' day hie 
 foimid it; if he had fomnd it before • I would have heard) of it 
 before. , 
 
 Q. State whiat was the fact regarding the exiisitenoe of rumor 
 in the fine department regairding the officers raiisinig momey to 
 get the salajries increased? A. I never hieapd anything aboiuifc 
 money being raised, only in Engine Gompany 25. 
 
 Q. Whenei did yon ftrsit hjear thW? A. A ehoirt while before 
 I hieard about the book, . 
 
 By SenartjOT O'Connor: ^ 
 
 Q. Did you ever see thisi book that belonged toi Horan? A. 
 No, isir. 
 
 Q. All yoiu know about it is whiat you heard Campbell say? A- 
 That is all. 
 
 Q. Ts Campbell the witness who hias beien on the stand and d)e- 
 naies the matter? A. That is the mani. 
 
 By Mr. Kainiea: ^ 
 
 Q. Who told yorn this? A, Jerry Campbell. 
 
 Q. Fix the date of the conversation? A, I can't fix it 
 
 Q. Was it some time in March? A- Yes; I was there every day 
 except my day off. , 
 
 Q. He told you about having found Horan's book? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you anyithinig more than youi have stated! upon 
 the witniaaa stand? A. No, sir. j 
 
 Q. Did he »ay he saw the woopd " assesisment " in the book? A. 
 He said " assessment " w^as on the top of the book and the letters " 
 " O. K." 
 
 Q. He saiid "assesisment?" A. That is what he' told me in^ 
 regard to the increase of salary; hfe said for the offlcers' increase. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you the word " asisesement " was written in the 
 book? A, No, sir; I don't think thte' man could read it if it was 
 there. 
 
 Q. Why? A. I don't know; I don't think he could so far as 1 
 hear about through men in the company; he held the book for 
 them to look oiver and read it for him. 
 
 Q. He could not read? A. I do not know that. 
 
 Q. Whatt did hej say abonit it being an assessment upon thle 
 
oiffloeiris; thiat was a statemeut oxuteide of thie book in regard to 
 thte book? A. Tliat I do not knorw. 
 
 Q. He said some of thie niames of members of flie coimjpany were 
 in' thie book? A. He eiaid .tihie inames of all 'tih^ of&'Cars of iMls 
 battaliom, amd that one was marked "N. G." 
 
 Q. Did lue .state thiat there wene any figures in the book? A. 
 Y.esi; 45 and 30. , 
 
 Q. He isaid thoise were in the book? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. How many officera are there in that battaliom? A. There 
 are flve comipianiesi; theiie ane three oifflcers in two compandieis^ amid 
 two foT each.' other company; there are six com^pianies in' the 
 battalion. 
 
 Q. Three officers to a company? A. No, isir, two; there are three) 
 inl one cOniipany. 
 
 Q Thait would make ■tjhirteen imi all? A. Yes, isir. 
 
 Q. This was told you by whom? A. Campbell. 
 
 Q. Did any one else tell yotn? A. l^o, sir. 
 
 Q. You nteiT^er hje'aird anything elsie from; amybody in rfegard to 
 raising motoiey except wtaat Campbell said? A. That is all. 
 
 Q. Outside of that did anybody tell you thIat money wats raised ? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You never yofuirself ini past yeaM heard of ai corruption fund? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Any istatement by Campbell or any other pertson^ that a col- 
 lection was made in any amoiuint to use in the passiage of the bill 
 w,a^- false, so far as you know ? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q, Yo|u hlavie beeui in the fire department how loiug,? A\, 
 Twelve years and two moiutihs. 
 
 Andrew F. Fitzgerald, hieing duly iswoimi as a witness and!, 
 examined by Mr. Boot, testifted as follows: 
 
 Q. You are a firemam and belong ito Hook and Ladder, No. 4? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Your house is located at 788 Eighth avenue? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At the oopnetr of Foirty-eigihth istreet? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in the fire department? A. A 
 little over thtaee years. 
 
 Q. Do yoiu know Foremiaii Cartiwiright of Hook and Ladder Nol 
 4? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yoiU ever" iiave any oonve'rsiartion with hUm with' refer- 
 emicie to the offQcens putting up motaey to inereaise their salaries? 
 A. I did. 
 
 Q. Whem was that? A On the 12th of Masrch, 1895. 
 
 Q. Where was it? A. At the residence of Captain Cartwright, 
 167 West One Hujndred and Eighttjeenth street. 
 
216 
 
 Q. How happened ywi to be tJuere? A. On tliat day I leffc 
 quarters at 5 o'clock and was going to dinner, witlt instructions 
 from the aissistant foreman in oommand of the company, to 
 visit Captain Cartwright, who was sick art; hisi residence, on busi- 
 ness connected with the company j while I wa® there and io 
 course of con:versation Captain Cartwright mentioned the fire- 
 men's bill J he said he thought the bill was; pretty near dead, 
 thait is the Pavey bill; I told him I thought it Wias, and then he 
 says, "No, our amendm,ent wUl carry that along; " he, then went 
 on to' say that he thought it would be a goiad idea foon.a com- 
 mittee of the offlcens' association and a committee of the men's 
 association to come together and hold a meeting and' say tax the' 
 ofQoers 20 and the men |30 or |40 ; he also added that at a mseit- 
 ing of the. officers held, thait the officers would; be assesisied |90 
 and the assistant foremen $60, in the interest of that amendment 
 to the Parey bill; he then added that he would rather see ami 
 older man in the department for the handling of the bill than 
 I\) reman Burns, of Hook and Laidder No'. 1; that is about the 
 exibent of the converisationi I had with' Captain Cartwright on' 
 that day. 
 
 Q. Did hei say anything about the amount of |90 for oaptaina 
 and of |60. fou foinemem? A. He said the officersi were taxed! 
 |90 and the assistant foinemen $60, in the interest of thajb 
 amendment. 
 
 Q. Did he say anything about whetheil he thought it was too; 
 high? A. He thought it, a littl© steep; that was why he men- 
 tioned the fact of ' a committeei of officers and men cominjg 
 togjether and having an understanding about the passing of the 
 bill with the amendment 
 
 iQ. Did he isay what he had done arti a meeting? A. Hei got up 
 at a meeting and said he would not put up a cent; that is; not Ms 
 exact womds; he said if the bill was passed and sagn,ed by thie 
 GoTrernor, he would do as good as the rest of them. 
 
 Q. You are now telling what he said had happened at a meet- 
 ing of lofficiers? A, Just like what I said happened; he got up 
 at a meeting and made that declaration. 
 
 ,Q> Did hie tell you how long before the 12th of March ithe 
 mieeting took place? A. No, sir. ^ 
 
 Q. Cairtwright was foreman of your company? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Of Hook and Ladder No. 4? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you say anything to him when he spoke itoj you) aboult 
 the men putting up or being taxed? A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Haines: ( 
 
 Q. Youi have beetnl in; thie department three years? A. Yea; 
 a little iwer. 
 
217 
 
 Q. Did you pay tot a corruptioiii fiimd? A. No, sir. ^^ 
 
 Q. You mevier contributed to any fund? A. No, isiir. 
 
 Q. And wlxen the statement by MoOabe or any persoui that yotu 
 or any peirsiou mentioned the fli^emen^ during the past tihirieie 
 yeaBs, contributed tx)i a corruption fund isi untrue so far as youi 
 are informed? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Tbene liave been, rumoi's during the past threiie' years with 
 regard to the oollectiotn of moniey? A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. All of them bave been basellesis sio far asi you itndie,nstand.? 
 A. Yes, isir. 
 
 Q. Captain OartwTiglitt is ratber a sevene disciplinarian? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Has a gooid deal of trouble witb tbe meu on tbat account? 
 A. No, sir; I migbt say rigM uow that I was called bietfoff© the 
 fire commiissionenS: at the request of Cartwrigbt; thierie was a 
 man, up on cb'argesi and they thought the oaptaiui migbt be a 
 little severe on the mem; the comnaissionens thougbt there migbit 
 be a little bard feeling between the oificers and tbe men, aud I 
 then made tbe samie statement as now, that there is no Ul feel- 
 ing whatever betweem men. 
 
 Q. Y'ou never bad any angry words with Gartwrigbt? A. 
 Nio, sir. 
 
 Q. You buve no ill feeling toiwawJI him,? A. No, sirj 
 
 Q. And no disposition to do him an injustice? A. No^ sir; 
 tbat information came to me umsoiuigbt 
 
 Q. Didn't tbiey call Oapteini Oartwrigbt, Captain Brockway? 
 A, Not now; tbe men' wbo bavei left that company after I came 
 to it or before, they called hjimi Captain Brockway, and) they 
 called tbe truck-bouse, Elmira. 
 
 Q. Did the company get tbe name olf being thie Elmira Re- 
 ■foinnatory Company? A. Yes; from, outsiders. 
 
 Q. Did 'they come' from rieports you gave out in regaridl to Ms 
 conduct? A. Tbat took place befoire I came to: the company. 
 
 Q. Since then bave you folks dompllainEd of the disciplinie? A. 
 No; we would not, and I bave not; not that I know of, I biavenot. 
 
 Q. How long have you been, in that company? A. Since the 
 10th of August, 1894. 
 
 Q. How long baa the captaiini been tbere? A. I guess oTOir a 
 year; I don't knowi wben hie came. 
 
 Q. "Wblen you met tbe oapftiain in bis house be mentioned this 
 Pavey bill? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. He said it was dead? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You agreed witb bim? A. I told him: I thought it wasL 
 
 Q. Thten he said the offldersi' amendment would carry it along? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 F. 28 
 
218 
 
 Q. How did lie chajnge his mind so quiiek? A. I can't aKseount 
 for that. 
 
 Q. Did lie say you firemen would get your bill, regardless 
 of thie officers' aroeiudimeiit? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 <J. He sai'd lie ttoughlt it was a gcodi idea for tlie committees 
 to meet? A. The committees of both' organizations should meet 
 and c'oime to an underisitandiiig about tluat bill; hie said the 
 oiBcers were going to be assesised |90; he said thie captains |90 
 and thie assistant foreman 
 
 By Senator O'Coomwri: 
 
 Q. How many captains aire there in the dep^irtment? A. I 
 can't tell the exact number. 
 
 Mr. Root. — There are 86 foireimieiii, 97 assistant foiremen, two 
 deputy chiefs, and 13 battalalon cliiefs. 
 
 Q. After saying to yoiu that they were going to be assessed 
 that, he suggested it would btei better for committees to 
 come together? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he ,say to wtoomi hte tolid that? A. Noi, sir; hei said he 
 mientioned that at a mieeting of the officers held; he didn't say 
 where or wh,en; he slaidi simply, a meeting of officers held. 
 
 Q. Did he say a meetimg of th.e officers, or say he said that to 
 the officers? A, At a meeting of officers held at which he was 
 present. 
 
 Q. There he said he would not p'aJyi any thing for corrupt 
 puiposes? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he say he meant it or was only, joliing; that he was 
 mow ready to gto in and aldyanoe to the samie extent they did? 
 A. That is what he sai;d at the meeting, btit if the bill wais 
 passed and siigneid he would try toi be as good as any. 
 
 Q. TVTien did you tell this conversation first to anybody? A. 
 That evening I oame from Gartwright's house I spoke to one 
 or two men in the hotuse. 
 
 Q. Whom' did you speak to? A. Fiiiemlan McCauley. 
 
 Q. You told him the donversatioai as you have related! it here? 
 A. I didn't give Mm details as I have here; I gave hiijm: the out- 
 line. 
 
 Q. To whom elsie did you repeat it? A. Yesterday I wrote a 
 letter to Fireman Clifford. 
 
 Q. WKen did youi wrilte that? A. I think on the lith of 
 March. 
 
 Q. Hajve you seen that letter since? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you outline this conversation) in that letter? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q, All of it? A. I toldl him pretty near all I hiad hteiard. 
 
2ig 
 
 Q. YiOB oomstiltied wdithJ people before yoiu wrotte tliat letteri? 
 A. No, sir; I wrote tlilat letter tMnking !ilt was a good thing 
 for Mr. Clifford to know that. 
 
 Q. Po(r what purpose; to get the oomindttee appointed? A. 
 No, sir; to let hiim know that I had heard that oiur bill wacs to 
 be beaten with or without that amendment. 
 
 Q. Oan yooi get that letter and produce it? A. Yes, sir; T 
 guess I can. 
 
 Q. Have youi asked Mr. Clifford for it yet? A- I asked him 
 this morning if he hald got the lettetr, and he said he hiaid the 
 letter yet; he didn't say he had it here. 
 
 Q. Did you say anything in that letter about the conversa- 
 tioii of (raising money with Cartwright? A. I wrote in that 
 letter the same as I told yotu'; thiatt the captaiini spoke to me 
 abont taxing captains $90 anid assistant foremen $60. 
 
 Q. To whom! afterward did yotu repeat that conversation? 
 A. Yesterday I repeabed it at lawyer Boot's offlice. 
 
 Q. Who were present? A. Colonel Howand, Mr. Quigg and 
 Mr. Boot. 
 
 Q. Is thiat the first time you have repeated ait affceir: thfe 14th 
 of March? A. That is all. 
 
 FJiTieman Clifford was called by Senator O'Connor amd interroi- 
 gated by him as follows: 
 
 Q. Have yoiu tlh'e letter written by the witaess? Ai I don't 
 know as I have got it now. > 
 
 (Senator O'Connor directed Fireman Cliffoird to> find the letter 
 if possible and bring it tdi thie committee.) 
 
 By Mr. Bainea: 
 Q. Have you got it? A. 1 think I destroyed it. 
 Q. Didn't you tell the witness this morning you had it? A. 
 I have not. 
 
 ESjaminiatiofn of WituteBs Fitzgerald resumied: 
 
 Q. Hofw did you happen to go tO' Boot's office? A. I was 
 ordered by Chief Bonner to appear at the office of Lawyer Root 
 at 4 p. m. 
 
 Q. When dikJ: yon get that order? A. Yesterday; it! came 
 by tdephome at 1 o'oloick. 
 
 Q. Stoi yotu went there and made your statement? A. I went 
 there at 4 o'clock and malde the statement. 
 
 William J. WieJand, being duly sworn as a witness and 
 ecsiatmined by Mr. Boot, testified as follows: 
 
 Q. You are a fireman ini tlhis citjy? AL Yes^ sir. 
 
220 
 
 Q. You belong to wihiat oompafliy? A. Hook and Ladder Not. 4, 
 of 788 Eigh.'th avenue. 
 
 Q. Oartwright is foremam of that company? A. Yes, silr. 
 
 Q. How long have you bieeaii din; the fire dlepanrtment? A. Sis 
 years the coming December. 
 
 Q. How long haye yoiu been; m that company? A. Iteee 
 years the first of last February. 
 
 Q. Did you have a ttalb with Oartwright about the raising ol 
 njiOjuey by the officers to seouire the passiaige of an ameudmefat. 
 inoreaising their salaries? A. He had a talk with me abouA it 
 
 Q. Tell when it was and where? A. Oni the 6th day of March; 
 fiye minutes after 9 thait night Oartwright daJlled me from up- 
 stairs to go ourt with him ajid inspect thie signs on the lamp- 
 posts poinitiing to the fire-boxes, and going through Fifty-second 
 street, from Eilghth' arenue to Broadway, he asked me how 
 our bill was, and I saM, "I don't know and I dian't care a dam; 
 I suppose it is dead;" he said, "No; it is not dead now, our 
 amendment will bring it through all right, but it will cost a; 
 good deal of momey;*' I said, "Yes; from rumors I had heard, 
 and that I thought $90 was at go'od deal of money;" andi he says, 
 " Yes ; too much, and iJt would be a golod idleai flor the mem to 
 come together amd put up their share; " he said it was a haird 
 thing to do, but we wiouild get it back; I said that I had thought 
 that it would go through on the merits, but if it did not I 
 would mot put a cent up, and he says I won't put do^vn a cent 
 until the bill ils sJigned. 
 
 By Senator O'Connor: 
 
 Q. What was the answer you made to the remark that the 
 bill was dead; what information had you about it? A. No 
 informiation, except that the bill had passed the As.sembly, and 
 there was no more heard of it, and there was a arajmor j^oing 
 around that the officers had an amendment toi it, and it was 
 the last that would be heard of the bill. 
 
 Q. The firemen got the impression that when the oflioei-s' 
 aniendiment was attached to the bill, the bill was praotically 
 dead? A. I dton't knoiw anything about that. 
 
 Q. When Oaptain Oartwright spoke about it costing a good 
 deal of money you spoke to him' about |90? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. Had yon heard thait? A. That was a rumoa? going around. 
 
 Q. Tell what j<m said about the |90? A. I sadid this $90 
 is a good deal of money for a man to put in, andi he said, "Yes; 
 it is too much." 
 
 Q. When did yon first hear that money was being put up to 
 pass this amendment? A. I could not tell that; somei time 
 after the bill had passed the Assembly and niotoody heard, any 
 
. 221 
 
 more abomt it, but where it started or hiow it started I cam't 
 tell thlBJt 
 
 Q. Was i(t blesfoire tMs oonversation withi Galvtv/xiight? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Senartor Oantoir.— Do yooii know whlen the bill passed iihe 
 Assembly? 
 
 By Mr. Elainiaa: 
 
 Q. Yoiu neyer paid any mjoney to amy coreiuption fund durAng 
 the time you hay^e beem ooauiected with the department? A. 
 No, isir. f 
 
 Q. Yoiu never paid amythdng for any legislative acitiioaii? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. You never oomtributed or knew of anyone comtributing 
 to such a; fund? A. No, siT. 
 
 Q. Any stafbement by McCabe toi tihat effect is untrae? A. 
 Never, so far as I know. 
 
 By Senator O'Connor: 
 
 Q. Weire you ever asked to contribute? A. No> siiir. 
 
 By Mu^ Baines: 
 
 Q. Yoiu and Oartwright never h'ad any trouble? A. We aa-e 
 the best of Miends aind always halve been. 
 
 Q. How long have yoiu been there? A. Two years; I was 
 there before he golt' there and have been- ever isatoce. 
 
 Q; Yiou never joined in stjarting the name olf Captain Broick- 
 way for him? A. I would uot Ve fool eniough to do> that; I 
 knew it would come back to him'. 
 
 Q. You had some time spoken of M\m. as Oapjtain Brockway? 
 A. No, sir; that is hoirsie-car ruimoir. 
 
 ' Q. Did you speak of him as Bsockway? A. Not that I know 
 of; amongst others I might have said I heard him called 
 Broekway. 
 
 Q. Is there a oonsiderable feeliing between some of the men 
 and Oalrtwright? A. No, sir; th'ere is moifc; it is this way; we 
 have got to obey orders and we know we can't doi anytjiing 
 against a captain bedamse he makes us live up to our orders. 
 
 Q. And yoiu feel worst when you oan't do anything? A. A 
 maai feels wrong, but dare not tell of it. 
 
222 _ 
 
 Q. Have yoiu had some feeling against CartwrigM? A. No, 
 sir; T dio my wort, and that is all I can do. 
 
 Q. Yora were wronged and had no remledy? A. I never was 
 wronged. 
 
 Q. Didn't yon have some feeling that a'ather retpressed? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. "Whieu did yoTx first talk with Oonxmiissioaier La Grrange 
 abont this comversation? A. Mght before last; on Wednesday 
 nighit. 
 
 Q. How did you dome toi go tOiere? A- I was on the watch 
 before I wen* to his hjOiuisie; about 9 oir 10 somiebody knockied 
 at the door, and' I opened the dloor and two gentlemen walked in. 
 
 Q. Who were they? A. I don't know; tbey asked for the 
 miaii in oonunand, and I knocked and told the captain some 
 men wished to see him, and he said senid theml upstairs, and 
 I told them to go up; the captain came over and introduced 
 Mim to me as president of thie board of fire commissionersi; 
 Cartwright intrioidtaced Mm. to me; hie hiad beten asking ftw me; 
 and QartwTigh,t inttrodluced me to La G-range, and Lai Grange 
 said he would lilce to have mie come along witW him; he says, 
 "Captain, you will excuse him?" and hfe said, "Yes;" and we 
 went to hiis resaidlence. ' 
 
 Q. WiiO went with you besides La G-range? A. I don't know 
 the other gentleman; the gentleman with La Grange. 
 
 Q. Do you see him sitting here? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You didn't hear. his name during any of tbe conversation? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or whether hei was a person connected with the depart- 
 ment? A. While I was -sitting in the parlor Mr. LaJ Grange 
 spoke to a lady im a rear room, that I af terwaird saw- intro- 
 duced as his wife, and this gentleman told this lady that he 
 was going to bed; I supposed he must be a friend of the com- 
 missi'oner or a relation. 
 
 Q. Were you thfere at other times with firemen? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you tell some firemen to go before the colmmissioner? 
 A. No, sair. 
 
 Q. To repiort to him? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. This is the first time you had repeated this conversation 
 with Cairtwright? A. Np, silr; after I cainie back from inspec- 
 tion I told ttihe mem sitting uipstairis at that limle; riteman 
 MtKgorald was tiere, and being a, delegate I told him about 
 it, and asked what he thought abont it. 
 
 Q. Is there anybody else to whom you mqwalted, it? A. I told 
 the same thing to Lawyer Root and Oolonel Howard. 
 
 Q. I srappose you arranged with Commfesioner La Grange to 
 
223 
 
 go and tell hSm. the story? A. Whiat do you mean by "ar- 
 ranged; " La Grrange told me anything I knew to tell tlie tnitli, 
 and no'thlng but the trinth. 
 
 Q. Did be tell yon to Imig an, interview witb Root? A, He 
 didn't tell me to go tbere; I got my order yesterday afternoon; 
 it came from Obieif Bonner, the cotmmanding officer of Hook 
 and Ladder No.. 4, to report at tbat office at 4 p. m. 
 
 Q. How many were there of you firemen there at that time? 
 A. Wthen I got there, I tbiiink there were two ontsiide of us two. 
 
 By Mr. EioOt: 
 
 Q. Was Andrew F. Mtzgerald the delegate of the firemen's 
 associatiom from Hook and Ladder 4? A. Yes, sir; be was 
 from our compajiy. 
 
 By Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. Did Oamm.issio!ner La Grrange ask you abooit any ftands 
 raised for corrupt purposes in previous yeans? A. I don't know 
 whether be did oiF mot. 
 
 Q. He didn't ask yooi about tbose transactions, so far as you 
 remember? A. No, sir; not tbait I know of. 
 
 William Sbaw, beiing duly sworn as a witness amd) examined 
 by Mr. Boot, testified as follows: 
 
 Q. You are obief of the blaittalioooi? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Of the fire depiairianent of this city? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Which battalion? A. Sixth. 
 
 Q. How long bave youi been so? A. Since the lOtb of January, 
 this year. 
 
 Q. Are yoai a member of the officers' assoioiatdton? A. Yes, 
 sir; I am a member of tbe officers' association'. 
 
 Q. Do you remiember the resignation lol Qhief Bonner from 
 that assiociatioin ? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How did you become acqiuainted withi tihtei fact of bis 
 resignlation? A. At that meeting. 
 
 Q. Tbe meeting of Manclh 4tb? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You were present at that meeting? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. WTieire was tbe meeting held? A. In Clarendon Hall, 
 Thirteemth street, near Fourtb averaie. 
 
 Q. "WTio else was present at tbe meeting? Al I could not 
 repeat all; Captain Burns', Mr. Colby, Captain Martin — iifi I 
 could see a list of the names I probably woiuld) remember better; 
 I think Mr. Tobin was tblere amd Captain G<oioderson; that is 
 all I catn nenniembler; I will state I got to thie meeting late amd 
 left before ajdjowraiiment. 
 
224 
 
 Q. What 'bu'SiLaiess was transacted at that meeting? A. The 
 princdlpaJl' business, 'the longest business was ^ H;h|e (report of 
 Captadni Freel on the laiction of the icommittee on the 2 per 
 cent, tax bill, and the resignation of Chief Bontner, that was 
 eboiut lall, except tile routine biusilneas of the meeting. 
 
 Q. WTiat was Captain Freei's report about the 2 peir cent, 
 tax bill? A. I don't metmiember; it was a long staibememt; it was 
 in reference to hlavilng some of the memlberis of the Legislature 
 with reference to oiuir interest in the 2 peir cent, tax measure; to 
 have the biJll dlefeiated that granted an extension and so on; I 
 could not remember distinctly; I oorald not remember anything 
 definite about it 
 
 Q. What had Captain Freel to do with the 2 pe!Pi cent, tax 
 bill ? A. I thionk he was a member of the legislative committee 
 of the organizationi, but am; not positive as to that. 
 
 Q. Was he the one whd had charge of that matter? A I 
 think he had moire to do with it tlilan any othier! member of the 
 committee; he appeared to have facts and figures in reMioii 
 to it. 
 
 Q. Did hie make lal report in writing? A. Noi, sir; an oral 
 statement. 
 
 Q. Did the report! call for a|ny action by the officers? A I 
 think not. > 
 
 Q. Was any action taken upon it? A. Nbl, sir. 
 
 Q. No qruiestion was raisied by the members? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was Oroker at that meeting? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Da yotu' remember whether action was takten upon Chief 
 Bonner's resignaJtion ? A. I think it was laid upon the table, 
 but J don't remember that positively. 
 
 Q. Was anything else done at that meeting that you can 
 recollect? A. No, sir; I will state that T went to the meeting 
 late and never opened my mouth in the meeting; I never spoke 
 to anybody except to pass the time of day, and no suggestion 
 was made by me at that meeting; I never opened my mouth; 
 I left the meeting early and no proposition was made by me in 
 any way, shape or manner after the meeting or at any other 
 time. 
 
 Q. Did you know any of the offlcieirs who were at that meeting, 
 aside^from that meeting? A. No, sir; I went directly into the 
 engine-house where I am loeaited and sat th&re and read the 
 paper. 
 
 Q. Did you, on tiiat day, the 4th of March, oir the preceding 
 day, attend any meeting with any officers in which you dis- 
 cussed the isnbject of increasing the sialaries? A. No, sir; no 
 officeirs of the officers' assooiatilom or anyone else. 
 
225 
 
 Q. Mr. Eaines lias referred to somebody named Dennis Leary; 
 do yoTi know stacll a person? A. I was introduced to Mmi on 
 the 1st of Marcli. 
 
 Q. Where? A. At the comer of Broadway and Thilrteenth 
 street. 
 
 Q. Who was present? A. Ohief Croker, myself and the peraoin 
 who introduced us. 
 
 Q. That was the corner of Broadway and Thirteenth street? 
 A. Yes, sir; opposite the Star Theater. 
 
 Q. Was that the first time you ever met I>ennis Leary? A, 
 Yes, sir; I nerer knew there was sudhi a man in existence before. 
 
 Q. Did you hiave any oonTersation with him? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. On what subject? A Salary bill increase; in referemce 
 to the increase of pay of flremen and officers. 
 
 Q. What interest had he in the increase of firemen's salary 
 or the officers' isalary? A. He dewed to haTe am interest in 
 it; he made a proposition to me and Ohief Qroker, which' he 
 wanted us to lay before the officers. 
 
 Q. What was the propoisitiotn? A. He wanted to be employed 
 by the officers' assoeiatilon to go to Albany and look after the 
 interest of the bill and have his expenses paid, anid hie wanted^ 
 a guiarainitee for hois expfenseisi upi to the amount of $10,000; he 
 made qiufflte a statement about how expensive it was for differ- 
 ent purposes; he spoke of suppers and lawyers before the com- 
 mittees, and committees; he saiid it might coist $1,000 and it 
 might cost $10,000, and wanted his expenses .guaranteed for 
 the larger amioumt. 
 
 Q. Did he give you any further specifications of the expenses 
 at Albany than 'dinnersi and committees? A. He diid not; he 
 merely stated what lan influence he had, and thought! he would 
 be able to assist us in a great measure thiroiugh the acquaintance 
 he had. 
 
 Q. Did you! give hitm. any answer then? A^ Chief Oroker and 
 myself told him then that we dlidn't believe it was poissible for 
 us to do anything iln the matter; on leaving him we both agfeed 
 it was something we could have nothing to do with, and nothing 
 to do with from that hour. 
 
 By 8enart;or O'Oonnor: 
 
 Q. Who introduced Leairy to you? A. Ex-Deputy (Mef 
 McOabe. 
 
 Q. The man who has since committed suicide? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. He is the man who brought Leary to you? A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you at the time what his mission was? A. 
 What he told me originally was, he asked me how much I was 
 
 il 29 
 
Interested In the officers' bffi, Hindi I told tim' I was Intereisted 
 to the extent of the increase; he told me h.ie knew; a man that 
 would assist uis a great deal in Albany, aud that he was np at 
 the Morton Homse, and that he would introduce him tons; I 
 will istate also that Chitef Oroker being there waJs accidental; 
 I had been across Broadway and it was Chief Croker's day off; 
 he had been walking up the street and fell into it accidentally; 
 I met Chief McOabe on the comer accidentally. 
 
 Q. You expected to meet Leairy there? A- I did not; he left 
 us standing at the Star Theater. 
 
 Q. YouP meeting with Leairy was not accidental? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Chief McOabe went and brought him there from the Morton 
 House for the purpose of introducing Mm to yom? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. Hoiw long did yioiur conyersation contiinuie? A. Probaibly 
 about 10 minutes; I could not say; it was not a great while. 
 
 Q. Did you have somle correspondence with Leary? A. I wrote 
 him a n<yte; he called at the quairters two or three times, but 
 I didn't see him, and I wrote him ai note; he left a note thte 
 last time he was there; I didn't see him, but he urged an an- 
 swer to the note, as to whether anything could be done in the 
 matter or not. 
 
 Q. Have you that note? A. I have not. 
 
 Q. What has become of it? A. I suppose you could answer 
 better than T; I don't know where the note is since Iveary got it. 
 
 Q. T am speaking of Leary's note to you? A. Leary wrote me 
 a note requesting an answer to say whether anything could be 
 done in the matter; I don't know where that note is. 
 
 Q. You didn^t consider it of any special consequence? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you say that he called several times at the station- 
 house? A. I could not say how many. 
 
 Q. When were those calls? A. One was on Sunday evening, 
 I think; I didn't see him; anothJeir one on Sunday aftemoion, and 
 then he called again andi left a note; I don't know what day 
 that was. 
 
 Q. Sunday was the 3d of March, according to the calendar, 
 your meeting with Leary on Thirteenth street and Broadway 
 was the evening of the 1st of March? A. No, sir; in the after- 
 noon. 
 
 Q. What time in the afternoon? A. Betwteen 2 and 3 o'do©k, 
 I think. 
 
 Q. Tha.t would be Friday? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You didn't see any more of Leary that day? A. Not at all. 
 
 Q. Did you see him or hear from him on Saturday? A. I 
 don't think so; I don't remember seeing him after that at all. 
 
227 
 
 Q. Sunday, the 3d oH Mancli, lie called at youn headquarters, 
 108 East Thirteenth! street? A. Yes, sir, 
 
 Q. That is the Sixth Battalion hieadquarters? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. He called on Sunday, the 3d, at headquiairters, and you 
 didn't see him? A: I didii't see him. 
 
 Q. He didn't leave any note? A. One of the members said 
 a Mr. Leary had been there. 
 
 Q. On Monday, the 4thi, he called again? A. Yes, sir; while 
 I was at dinner. 
 
 Q. At noon? A. Noi; I go late; I thiiob about S o'clock. 
 
 Q. Thien he left the note? A. Noi; he returned again and 
 left the note. 
 
 Q. Did' hie leave a message for yom? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What time did he call the thlirdl time? A- That I could 
 mot isay. 
 
 Q. Later the same day? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. He left the letter the same day? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. He then left a note you say? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. l>iid you receive it that evening or the next morning? A. 
 That evening. 
 
 Q. Late? A. Tbat I couldi not say. 
 
 Q. That was Monday, the 4th.? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that note you; have already described; you have al- 
 ready given the contents of thlat note? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 (Paper siiown witness.) 
 
 Q. Is that the letter which you wrote Leary? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 ]\fr. Eoot reads the letter as follows: 
 
 "FIRB DEPARTMENT HBADQUAKTEBS, 
 
 "Sixth Battalion. ) 
 
 "New Yobk, M&^ch 6, 1895. j 
 "D. Lbaey, Esq. 
 
 "Dear Sir. — We were unable to influence the officers lo 
 change tihJeir program^ last night and it will go as I told yoiu. 
 Sorry that we didn't meet sooner andl we might have had 
 different results. 
 
 ( " Yours, 
 
 ! "WILLLOI SHAW." 
 
 (Letter offered in evidence, leceived and marked Exhibit 1, of 
 May 3, 1895.) 
 
 Q. The D. Leaiy, Eisq., to whom it i® addressed is the same 
 Leary that you met at the coimer of Broadway and Thirteenth 
 street? A. Yes, siir. 
 
228 
 
 Q. To whiomi didi yoiu refer by tHe first -word of the letter fol- 
 lowing dean sir, "We?'' AL I undieirBtood thia* toi refer to dhief 
 Oroker and myiself. 
 
 Q. What did yom meam when you sadd, " We were unable to 
 fnAuence the ofScers? " A. I wanted to lead Mr. lieairy to thitik 
 we had been trying to do something out of respect for the man 
 who introdmced us; at the same time we concluded not to do 
 it; this letter was written to mislead Leary. 
 
 Q. I thought! you just testified, Chief Shaw, that when you 
 left Leary you told hdkni youi would haive nothing to' do with his 
 proposition? A. We told him wie didn't thinli it was possible 
 to do anything with him; I think that was my answer, but he 
 insisted on our trying. 
 
 , Q. And did you leaive hakni with thte underistanding on his 
 part thJat you would try? A. Yes, sir; I guess he thought so. 
 
 Q. That you would try to get the officers to guariantee him 
 $10,000 for his expenses at Albiany? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. To whom did yoUi refer as the "officers" in the second 
 line; that you were unable .toi influence the officers? A. He 
 expected us to lay that befoire the Officers' meeting. 
 
 Q. Ajnd it was to the officiera of the fire depairtment you re- 
 ferred? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You say- " unable to influence fbie officers to change their 
 program tost night;" what do you mean by "thteolr program?" 
 A. As he had explained it to me they had made an arrangement 
 with another party to look after the bill, by his explanations. 
 
 Q. Who was the other party he explained to you they had 
 made an-angements with to look after the bill? A. Louis F. 
 Payn. 
 
 Q. Did he state that in the hearing of McCabtei and Chief 
 Oroker? A. Yes, sit. 
 
 Q. All three of you heard that? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And it was to that arrangement with Louis F. Payn that 
 you referred in this letter when youi said, "We were unable 
 to influence the officers to change their program?" A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Cantor! 
 
 Q. McCabe aitl that timie was not a chief? A. He wais an 
 ex-chief. 
 
 By Senator COonnor: 
 Q. Was hie a pensioner? A. Yes, silr. 
 
 By Mr. Efaot: 
 
 Q. And the program which you say here in this letter to 
 Leary that you were unable to influence the officersi to change 
 
229 
 
 was the program ui which Louis F. I'ayn was to take charge 
 of the bill to increase their salaries? A. As he explained to 
 nie; yes. 
 
 Q. You further, said " and it will go as I told you; " what did 
 you mean by that? A. I had told him, ais I understood it, the 
 ofScers had a committee on legislation appointed tO' look after 
 such matters, and I told him at the time that the oommittiee 
 on legislation would have full charge of that matter. 
 
 Q. ThaU referred to the persons Who, according to Mis state- 
 ment had made am arrangement with Payn? A. He didn't tell 
 me of anybody, but he told mie about stories circulated in Al- 
 bany that Payn was to take chairge 'oC our bill; he also cast 
 doubts on the ability of Paypi in being able to get it through. 
 
 By SenatolB O'Connor: 
 
 Q. The substanice of it was that TjeaJry wanted the job instead 
 of Payn? A, 'Phiat was the size of it 
 
 By Mr. Eoot: 
 
 Q. You say, " Sorry we didn't meet sooner," and " would haye 
 had different results?" A. That was a way of iiettimg them, 
 down eaisy, 
 
 Q. You were not really sorry? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You were sorry you had met at all? A. I guess I was and 
 am' to-day. 
 
 Q. Didn't yon mention this subject at a meeting of the ofiicers? 
 A. I did not; I think that the officers thei-e 6aioh volunteered a 
 statement they would all vouch for it; there must have been 
 30 or 40 men at the meeting, and each one I am confident 
 would state I never opened my mouth at the meeting. 
 
 Q. You talked' personally with officers about it? A. Only one, 
 and I think that was after the meeting. 
 
 Q. Who was that? A. Forema^n ol truck 3, Meaghier, I men- 
 tioned it to him as a sample of what was being talked about. 
 
 Q. And them it was not truie that yoiu were tmable toi influence 
 the officers as youi wrote? A. I madle no effort. 
 
 Q. Tell the committee why you wamted toi let Leary down 
 easy? A. He was introduced to me biy a friend; I didn't want 
 to tell that friend that we would not do it, biutt aJt the same 
 time we came to the conclusion we could not dbi it, and did not 
 do it, and didn't have anytihiinig to do with it 
 
 Q. Did you have anytihing to do with the other program to 
 which you refer in this letter? A. I never was interested or 
 took any part in the movement; I was only at two meetings of 
 
I i 230 
 
 the officers' associatilon since I have been a member, and I knew 
 very little of the proceedings that have been going on. 
 
 Q. Do you rememben being called npon by Oommissioner Ta 
 Grange and asked whether you were present at that meeting 
 on the 4th of March? A. T do; I didn't think I was at that 
 meeting; I imagined I had been to a fire that night, but on 
 coming to the quarters I looked over the books and fcmml I was 
 at that meeting; it was the April meeting I was not to, and I 
 explained it to him subsequently and told him I was; on retf er- 
 ring to a memorandum I saw I was mistaken. 
 
 Q. You had told him at the time he first asked you that you 
 were not there? A. I didn't think I was there; I got the March 
 meeting confuBed' with the April meeting. 
 
 By Senator O'Oonnon: 
 
 Q. At the time you first talked witth Ijeairy you say Leary 
 told yoiu that Payn' had the management of this matter at 
 Albany? A. He said he was endeavoring to get control and 
 management of it 
 
 Q. Prior to that time did you know anything about Payn's 
 connection with it? A- No, sir. 
 
 Q. That was the information youi had received of his con- 
 nection with it? A. Yes, sin; I kinleiw that the amenidment of the 
 bill had been hut recently put on, and it was a mystery among 
 the officers how it was put on. 
 
 Q. Up to that time did you know of anything being done by 
 tbe officers for that amendment? AL No, sir. 
 
 Q. Yoiu say McOabe is the man who first spoke to you about 
 Leary? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And at the time he sp^jke to yoiu he disclosed the pui-pose 
 of the meeting? A. Yes, eiiir. 
 
 Q. Why did you meet I^ary? A. It was represented to me 
 that he could be of assistance to us in getting that bill through; 
 as McOabe explained it he had a wonderful number of friends 
 in Albany and could assist us. 
 
 Q. Did McCabe disclose th'e nature of Leary's busimess? A. 
 He told me he would expect his expenses paid. 
 
 Q. Did you understand that Leary was a lobbyist? A. No: 
 I didn't take it that way; as McCabe explained to me he told 
 me he was a great personal friend of a Senator up there. 
 
 Q. Did he indicate in any way what these expenises were? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What Induicedi yoiu tiO meet Leary? A. That was the in- 
 ducejnent; to »ee ilf we oould get help upon the increajse of 
 paiy bill. 
 
231 
 
 Q. You were willing tliat Leary's assistance sitoiild be oib- 
 tained to help along? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the* $10,000 ppoposition. foip expemses was a surprise 
 to you? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yon eyer lay the proposition, of Leary before the 
 officers' associatiion? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yon talce any steps toward carrying it into effect? 
 A. IS' one whatever. 
 
 Q. When he made that proposition in the way he did why 
 should yon have been so tender as to want to let him down 
 easy? A. On account of the man who introduced us. 
 
 Q. When he maide the proposition he did about $10,000 you 
 knew then he must be a lobbyist? A. He didn't state it would 
 be that amount; he spoke about suppers and lawyers. 
 
 Q. You didn^ take any stock in that? A. No, sir. 
 
 <Q. You knew that |10,000 he wanted for himself, or for him- 
 self and others? A. Yes, sir; Chief Oroker and myself agreed 
 on leaving Leary that it was ai strike. 
 
 Q. The only thing that bothers me is why you should h£tve felt 
 tender about him after h© made that proposition? A- I didn't 
 want to have anything more to do with him, but he kept com- 
 ing there. 
 
 Q. You can see now 13iiei had policy of writing that note? 
 A. Yes, sir. < 
 
 By Mr. Boo*: ; 
 
 Q. I don't understand why you thought it necessary to write 
 a letter in which you told this man an untruth? Ai As I have 
 explained it, I did it naithier than offend him, he being a friend 
 of Chief McCabe. 
 
 Q. You wrote a letter which contains a eeries of false state- 
 ments when you knew him to be a lobbyist whoi had made a 
 corrupt propositioni to you, because you feared! to offend him? 
 A. I didn't understand it as being a corrupt arrangement; he 
 wanted cerMn expenses and stated what the money was to be 
 for, and he could not place the amount, but he wanted a guamn- 
 tee for the larger amouint so as to cover it 
 
 Q. Tell me again what expenses he specified to you? A. A 
 lawyer to address thie committee; he also thought it was neces- 
 sary to take a committee of citizens from the city, to appiear 
 before the committee to influtence the committee, and theiir 
 expenses ought to be paid, and for suppers, etc., which he said 
 there could be no lilmit placed on; thait was abloiut the extent 
 of his oonversati'on ; Leiairty was very guarded. 
 
 Q. You could see that hb was guarded? A. Yes, sir. 
 
232 
 
 Q. The chairmaw just askeldi youi whether yoiui toobi amy stock 
 in it, yoiii didn't? A. 'No, sir. 
 
 Q. You understood this tailk about expenses was all gamin? 
 A. I thought the expense part was aJl right, but I didn't taJte 
 any stock in his promises of beilng able to perfioirlni soi much. 
 
 Q. l>o you mean to say that you really believed that $10,000 
 paid to this man would be paid for an honest purpose? A. 1 
 never expected that Igl0,000 would be paid, or that he expected 
 that much, but he wanted to be on. the saifle silde, as I imder- 
 stood it. 
 
 Q. You thought his purpose am hlojiest and honorable one? 
 A. Yes, sir; I only didn't like what he said he could perfoi-m; 
 I thought he agreed to perform, more than he was ciapaible of; 
 for instance, he said he would guarantee he wouJd have the 
 bill signed in a week, anid I thought that raither huiried. 
 
 Q. If yo^^ thought this proposition was perfectly honest and 
 honoraMe why dold you agree that you. could not have anything 
 to do with it? A. Because we considered it a strike on his part 
 for expenses to go up there at our expense and probably see 
 to other matters. 
 
 Q. And you now say to the committee thlat you saw notidng 
 except what wais perfectly honorable and honest in the piropo^ 
 sitioin that Leany made? A. That is all; his remark was exactly 
 that it might cost |1 0,000 or ilt might cost |1,000. 
 
 Q. Why did you think there was any occasion to write a 
 letter to this man which contains a series lof falsehoods, simply 
 for the purpose of declining an honest business proposition? 
 A. Fore the reason that T didn't want to have anything to' do 
 with it; .1 didn't want to be mixed up in it; I had taken no part 
 in it and didn't want to be connected with it. 
 
 Q. Did you think it would do apy violence to your friendship 
 for McCabe for you to say, " The priTO aslted is too high? " A. 
 I don't suppose it would. 
 
 Q. Why didn't you simply say that if you thought this person 
 perfectly honest instead of writing him a letter containing 
 falsehoods? A. I dkwi't think Chief McOabe was present during 
 all this donversiatiloni; he introduced us andl stolod off ait one 
 side. 
 
 Q. So you don't think McOabe Icnew what Leary's propositSion 
 to you and Croker was? A. He knew, because he explained it 
 to us before the introduction; he said he would want his ex- 
 penses paid. 
 
 Q. "^Tiy didn't you say to McOabe "Thisi miam's ideas of ex- 
 penses are extravagaint?" A. As explained by him to me, the 
 expenses at Albany are extravagant; that is Leary's explainatioin. 
 
233 
 
 Q. Do you think it would haive beeni any violation of yom- 
 frieEdsUp for McCabe if you had said to McGabe "TMs man's 
 ideas of expenses are too Mghi?" A. I didn't wajut to offend 
 Chief McCabe in any way; he asked me to do thi's for this man, 
 and to make this proposition to the oiificers. 
 
 Q. McCabe asked you to do it? A. We talked oiver generally 
 how this man could Iteneflt us, and we thought it would be 
 advisable to lay it before the ofdcers^ and he went on and ex 
 plained how this man could benefit us. 
 
 Q. Did you arrange with McCabe to lay it before the officers? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q, What did you siajy to McGabe when; he asked yoiu to lay it 
 before the officers? A. I don't remeqiber whether we told 
 McCabe that we would lay it befoire the officers or not, and I 
 never told Leary that we would lay it btefore the officens; he 
 inisisted that we should and I told him I didn't think it was 
 possible that they would -look at it with his viewsi; he seemed 
 to persist that we should lay it befoire them. 
 
 Q. I want to go back to this clause in the letter which im- 
 mediately follows what yoii say abciut the officers changing 
 their program, you say, "We were unable to tafluenee the officers 
 to change their program last night ; " why did you specify 
 "last night?" A. Because that was the night he wain ted me 
 to lay it before the officers. 
 
 Q. Who wanted you to lay it before the officers? A. Learj'. 
 
 Q. He wanted you to lay this before the officers at that regu- 
 lar me€?tiug? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When did he say that? A. At that meetiiig of ours on, 
 Broadway. 
 
 Q. Who referred to the meeting, he or you? A. He appeared 
 to be very well posted. 
 
 Q. He asked you to lay this before the officers at that monthly 
 meeting on the 4th of March? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Amd yoa wished Mm to understand by this letter that you 
 had done so? A. Yes., sir. 
 
 Q. You say, "We were unable to influence the officers to 
 change their program last night, and it will go as I told you ; " 
 I don't know that I understand how it was you had told hiim it 
 would go? A. I told him, as I understood the business, it was 
 in the hands of the committee on legislation that took charge 
 of all these matters; I told him all arrangemientsi of that de- 
 scription were in the hands of the committee on legislation. 
 
 Q. Was that all you told hitn about how it would go? A. 
 About all ; it would be referted to them. 
 
 F. 30 
 
234 
 
 Q. Was that all you did tell liilm about hiow it would go? 
 A. That is all. < 
 
 Q. These are the same officers, are they u'oti, to whom you 
 referred as the offtcers you were unable to influence to change 
 their program? A, He wanted to lay it before the whole asao» 
 elation of offlceirs and it was to the association I referred. 
 
 Q. You were unablie to get the whole officers' association to 
 change their program? A. That was the proposition to lay it 
 before the oflQcers' association. 
 
 Q. The idea was to taJie it out of th,e hands of this comimittee? 
 A. No; he wanted action taken by the organization, and I told 
 him. distinctly that all matters of that kind were referred! to 
 the committee; that is jvhat I referred to there. 
 
 Q. Was that the only thing you referred to as having been 
 told him, that thiis would go under the dontrol of the commit- 
 tee? A. That is all. 
 
 Q. And not in accordance with the program you referred! to 
 in this letter? A. I don't uniderstand you. 
 
 Q. You say you were unable to influence the ofGLcers to change 
 their program, and "It will go as I told you;" didn't you mean 
 by that to be understood that this matter would go in aoeord- 
 ance with the program you could not get changed? A. K'o; I 
 explained distinctly how these things are managed. 
 
 Q. How long was that talk with Leary? A. It might have 
 been 10 minutes, may, be 15; we stood titere some little time;, 
 if I had known I was going on the witness stand I should have 
 taken watch of time. 
 
 Q. If you wanted to avoid' offending McOabe, and wanted to 
 avoid offending this man Leairy, whom you thought to be an 
 honest man, why didn't you pass the thing over to the ofllcers' 
 committee and so relieve yourself of any responsibiliiy on the 
 subject? A. I didn'^t want to have anything to do with the 
 matter whatever, and that was agreed by Chief Oroker and 
 myself when we left him; the writing of the letter is a mis- 
 take; that is the only mistaJie I made. 
 
 Q. You say you only wanted to have nothiing to do with the 
 matter, was that wish affected by the idea that this proposition 
 was not an honest and honorable one? A. I didn't understand 
 it as anything else. 
 
 By Mr. Badnes: 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of Leary before McOabe mentioned his 
 name to you? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You never knew such a man biy newspaper repute? A. 
 NOj sir. 
 
235 
 
 Q. ]Md McCabe urge upon you before yoiu went to that inter- 
 view on account of this man'® influence, to make some deal 
 with him if you could? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And secure his servioeH and influence? A. Yes, wr. 
 
 Q. And then brought this man Leary to you? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where were you standing at the time? A. Thirteenth 
 street and Broadway. 
 
 Q. Is that where you met McCabe? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At the time you met McOabe were you alone? A. Yes,- sir. 
 
 Q. Had you any appointment to meet McCabe there? A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. The meeting was aocidental? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did Croker come along accidentally? A. He came up 
 Broadway; I think it was altogether accidental. 
 
 Q. Was there any arrangement for any meeting between you 
 and Croker? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You and McCabe were talking when Croker came along? 
 A. I really do not know; I would not say whether Croker and I 
 were together when McCabe came along; I would not say which 
 of them I met first; I would not be positive; it was almost 
 at one time. 
 
 Q. Did you stay staniding there, while McCabe got this man 
 Leary? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How far is this point where you met from the Morton 
 House? A. One hundred and fifty feet. 
 
 Q. He brought him? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And then Leary made his suggestions or propiosition ? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You say Leary talked guardedly; what do you mean by 
 that? A. He didn't commit himself any way that I would con- 
 sider hiim a lobbyist; he looked like a gentleman. 
 
 Q. Did he, in any way, talk about using money corruptly? 
 A. I thought he was liable to be a friend of the Senators, some 
 gentleman friend. 
 
 Q. Did he talk about using money corruptly with Senators? 
 A. He didn't unless they were corrupted by these dinners which 
 he proposed to give; that was about the extent of his corruption. 
 
 Q. He had large ideas of entertaining? A. He was rather 
 extravagant. 
 
 Q. After he finished this conversatilon yoii say you and Croker 
 tuimed the comer? A. Yesi 
 
 Q. How far did you go before you and Crofcer chairacterized 
 the conversation? A. We hadn't reached Fourth avenue, a 
 short block there. 
 
 Q. State what was said bte^tween you and Croker? A That 
 I oould not reBaember; we came to the agreement thiat it appeared 
 
236 
 
 to be a strike on llie part of this man I,eai7 to get his expenses 
 paid up there, and probably not do anything for us at all; he 
 appc^ared to think he could do too much; at least I thought so. 
 
 Q. He talked about doing so much in a week? A. Yes; I had 
 my doubts. 
 
 Q. It was agreed between you to have no more to do with 
 him? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Leary chased you up at the flrei-house? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q And after three calls and a note youi thought yom would 
 dispose of it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you wrote the letter which has been read? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Your failure to Wave anything to do with Leary yoiu knew 
 would be a diisappointmeint to McCabe? A. I judged so on ac 
 count of his introducing us, and he seemed to be interested in 
 the geiitleman. 
 
 Q. Did McCabe, in any way, give you any information as to 
 the nature of his interest in Leary? A. No'. 
 
 Q. On account of its being a disappointment to him you 
 thooight you would let Leary down easy? A. Yes, sitr. 
 
 Q. Had you any other purpose in writing this letter except 
 to get did ol Leajry? A. 'No otther piurpose but to drop him and 
 end hlimi oomling there for me. 
 
 ■ Q. And these sentences which! aire so seveirely charactesriilzed 
 as falsehbiodis.by Mr. Eoot were intended toi mildly reaich tOxat 
 result? A. Yes> sir. ' 
 
 Q. McCiabe and he had been so persistent abbut laying the 
 matter before the officers tih'ait you didn't wish toi tell him that 
 you hadn't dome anything of the kind? A. That is about the 
 size of it 
 
 Q. So you implied in this letter that you had done so? A. Thiat 
 was whlat it wais written for. 
 
 Q. It is not stated here thalt you hiad maidle any aittem^yt, as 
 jmi will see on residing it, simply thlat you wene unable to 
 influence thte officers to change the program!; it doesi mot sitate 
 you maide any attempt to do it; that may hiave been your own 
 mental conclusiton, that you were unaible to influienoe thiem? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You knew that in your own milnd? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You' didn't say you madle the attempt? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. But Mr. Leary might assnme, for his own isatisfaction, thIat 
 such ajn aittempt had been miadie, although you didn't say so? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. At thie time you didn't mean to say dSlrtedtly thiait yon had 
 or had not? A. That was whiait I meant to say to him, leaving 
 him to thlilnik! we had when we hlad not 
 
237 
 
 Q. The statement that "It will go as I told you" is exactly 
 true? A!. Yes, sitp. 
 
 Q. Go in the hapdis of the legislative committee? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And really the only falsehood is the staltement that you 
 were isorry yon hadn't met sooner? A. I was sorry I ever met 
 him ait alll. 
 
 Q. Did yon ever knoiw of any other peirsioto saying euphoni'sti- 
 oally, " Swry we hadn't met before?" A. I tihink it is freqnent. 
 
 Q. And it ils often donei in conversation? A. Yes, sir; we very 
 frequently saiy we are glad toi meet you when we aire not glad. 
 
 Q. The use of such soit terms toi mislead him you think wiere 
 waiTantahle? A. Yes, sdir. 
 
 Q. When yoiu say "Sorry haven't met before" and "might 
 have haid different results," yioiui were drawing on your iimagina- 
 tion? A. That is about it. 
 
 Q. Is there any diisitiinjc* ,or willful falsehotod that you dis- 
 cover, except the soft words? A. I didn't recloignize it as being 
 a falsehood when I wriote irtl 
 
 Q. To that extent youi aire inclined to favor yonirself in elimi- 
 nating from your answers t!oi Mr. Boot's questions the fact that 
 you had made a willful falsehood? A. I dildn't oonsider it 
 willful. 
 
 Q. Yoiu heardl nothimg to enable you to tell that this mJan 
 included the use of money corruptly uplon tha's bill? A. No, sir; 
 he never mentioned! it. 
 
 Q. You say nloithing corrupt was suggested? A. Nothing 
 whatever. 
 
 Q. Do you think hils assioiciation with McOabe would tiend to 
 give color to the fact that he would make only homoiPable sug- 
 gestions? A. I suppose so; I supposed that was the reason 
 Chief McCabe introdneed him. 
 
 Q. It didn't lOeour to you that McCabe wais interested! in havtiing 
 Leary get a job btecause it might pecunlilasrily benefit McCabe? 
 
 (Qiiestilon stricken out.) 
 
 Q. Why he was so interested yom didn't understand and don't 
 now? A. No, sir; I don't now. 
 
 Q. Was any fund , raised! diirecftfly or indirectly for any corrupt 
 purpose in eonnection with the officers' amendment to tiie salary 
 bill, OB iflor the salary bill this winter? A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Have yotu ever heard of any officer playing any assessment? 
 A,. No, sik". 
 
 Q. Did you ever paiy any? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Aside from the |1 whldh commeniqed iki^ be collected la,sit 
 August, haVe you piaid' any contribution to any person whomslo^ 
 ever in conmectiomi with the isialary bill ? A. I have not. 
 
Q. B]aT« you heard of any offioeir hjaving miaide suchl a payment? 
 A. No, sir. • 
 
 Q. Do you) know of any? A. Noy sir. 
 
 Q. Weice you called upotn for such a payment? Ai. Never. 
 
 By Mr. Eoot: 
 
 Q. You will hlaive rather come amuiDd to the opilnion that this 
 was a highly meritorious letter? A. I h&lve not; I don't think 
 so; the letter was written to deceive Mr. Leary and was written 
 with that intention, and I don't know that it is altogether credit- 
 able. ' 
 
 Q. Yoiu dton^t except the labor of friend Kaines in your behalf, 
 do you? A. He h^ endeaivoned to straighten out some parts 
 that were not ajtoigether striaight. 
 
 Q. The lettter was designed to oo|nvey toi Leary's mind the , 
 idea that youj haid endeaTOired to get the Payn program chamged 
 to the Leary program, was it not? A. No, shf. 
 
 Q. I notice that yoiu say, when you were asked; whether you 
 knew of amy officers aontributing tlowaird the fund to get the 
 offloens' sal'atries increased', "NOi; not to my knowledge;" why 
 did you put that limitationi upon your answer? A. There had 
 been rumors and rumors and assertions in The Press; the 
 Sierald started it; I could not isiay when; I don't nemember the 
 date. 
 
 Q. "V^Tien' did you first heai* of rumors and rumors? A. I think 
 the Herald is the first T heard of it. 
 
 Q. "WTien was that? A. About the time ouir amlendment was 
 added to the bill; I couldl not state the exact time. 
 
 Q. That was the 26th of February? Al. I don't think it was 
 as early as that, but it may h^Te been, 
 
 Q. It was when your amendment was added^ to the bill? A. 
 I think it wi^s about thartJ time that the article was in the Herald; 
 
 Q. Aboiuifc that time yoiu commenced to^ hear- these ilumors? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You say " rumors and rumors ; " that is rather a strong 
 expression? A. The citizenlsi' meeting in the street and every- 
 body was talkitocg about it at the time. 
 
 Q. TWatU wais before this episode with Leary? A. I think it was. 
 
 Q. How many times had you. before that interview wilth 
 Leary, heard statemients that officers were raising money to 
 secure the passage of that amendment? A. I never heard ithe 
 statement, except people asking queistStoWs, thiat they heard 
 money was being raised, and " Is itt so? " 
 
 Q. How many people did you talk with on thart; subject? A. 
 It is impoBsible for me toi state. 
 
By Benatioir O'Connor: 
 
 Q. Prion to your meeiting Leary, had yon heard these rumors? 
 A. Only about thiait time thait they commenced to circulate; 
 about tiiat time tihe arfticile was in the Herald. 
 
 By Mr. Koot: 
 
 Q. You just told me it was befbire your meeting with Leary? 
 A. About that time; I thiink just previous to my meeting with 
 Leary. 
 
 Q. So at the time you had this conyersation you knew it was 
 ii matter of public rumor that the oflicers of the fire department 
 were raising money to put through this amiendment? A. I thinlv 
 it was before that. 
 
 Q. And when you wrote this letter to Leary, in which you 
 say you had been unable to influence the officers to cihange the 
 proigram, you knew that fact? A. IS'o. 
 
 Q. You knew of the existence of that rumor? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You spoke of Leary and McCabe as insisting upon yoiM* 
 laying this, before the officers; did yoiu have amy conversation 
 with McCabe about it after that interview with Leary? A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Before the interview with Leary I understand you to say 
 nothing had been said between McCabe. and you about the 
 amount of expenses which Leary would call for? A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say .JicCabe was not pinesent at the 
 conTersation in which Leary stated the amount? A. I think 
 he stood one side. 
 
 Q. Have you, since thatfc time, had any correspondence with 
 McCabe? A. No, sat. 
 
 Q. You received letters from him? A. No!, sir; I have had 
 commuinications with him by meeting him, but no correspond- 
 ence. 
 
 Q. Any comtounication with hiim after the meeting on the 1st 
 of March and the writing of the letter on IMarch 5th? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How many persons did yon hear speak of the rumor that 
 the officers of the department were raising money tO' get their 
 salaries increased? A. I really could not tell. 
 
 Q. Not any of them? A. Quite a number after the newspaper 
 articles. 
 
 Q. Did you hear it discussed among the officers? A. Not much. 
 
 Q. Some? A. T don't remember ever speaking with an officer 
 with reference to it. 
 
 Q. How many articles in the Herald did you read? A. It is 
 an indistinct recollection; I can't state the dates; I remember of 
 
24C 
 
 reading articles; I have stated here thiaitl I read that before tbe 
 communioatiotn with Leary, but really I am not positive whether 
 it W9.S before or after; I really could not tell. 
 
 Q." Chief Bonier has testifledi that he resigned aiftefr seeing 
 some articles in the Herald upon this snibject, amd his resigna- 
 tion was presented on tllie 4th, of March; does thlat refresh your 
 recollectioai? A. I think the amide was written: just about 
 that time, betwee;n th'e 1st and 3d o(fi March. * 
 
 Q. What was the nature of the aarti'cle? A. I think it specified 
 there was an amoiuint, $18,000, riaJisad; I think the figure was 
 $1S,000; had been raised to assist in loibbying the officensi' bill. 
 
 Q. Was there more than one articitei that you noticed? A. I 
 think the next daiy they haid! ainother article, and some time 
 afterward I think some nnone. 
 
 By Mr. Kaines: 
 
 Q. Do youi mean to say that thSIs matte* of raising a corruption 
 fund was apprehended as early as ilarch in the newspapers? 
 A. I think so, in tihe Herald. 
 
 Q. Do yon realize the fact you are charging upon .The Press 
 publication of stale news on the ISth of April last. 
 
 Fireman Clifford at this stajge was called forward by Senator 
 O'Connor and exiimined in regard to the letter written! him by 
 Witness Fitzgerald, as follows;: 
 
 By Senator O'OonnOB: 
 
 Q. Do you remembier having receolved a letter from Fitzgerald? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do yorai. knoiw what you did with it? A. I do not; I mnst 
 have laid it asalde. 
 
 Q. Are you in the habiit of keeping letters filed away? A. Any 
 of impiolrtance. 
 
 Q. Dild this letter iknppess yiotui as being impotptant? A. I don't 
 remembeir its contents. 
 
 Q. Did yoni Ibok in the plaice yon usually file letters away? 
 A. Yes, sSr. 
 
 Q. Ylon couldh't find it? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q, You malde a thorongh searcih? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. ElaShes;: 
 
 Q. Previous to the 14th of March you had been at Quigg'a 
 ofiQce carrying news to him for a period of a cioiuple of weeks? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
241 
 
 Q. You had been interviewing with Eothenhausler the widow 
 O'Eeilley; and on the 14th of Majch yoiu got a letter detailing 
 a cooversiatiion with am offlceir in whiidh a corruptiom fumd to the 
 amount of |90 a man, was mentioned? Ai Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And do you meam to say youi dildn't tafce it toi Quigg? A. 
 I did not. 
 > Q. Atnid you didn't preserve! that letter? A. I did not. 
 
 Q. You hald foa", isiome time beem engaged ini gaittoe'ring up 
 riimors im the diepartment on this subject? A. I wished to use 
 the matter as confidentilal. 
 
 Q. What was there between you and this flreman that was 
 confldeoittial? A. Ouir relational 
 
 Q Were you not engaged in good faith in mialdng the investi- 
 pn.ious tluit yon carried to Quigg? A. Yes; I think I mentioned 
 the gentleman's name to Quigg; the letter was very brief; it only 
 sini])]y stated in the event of it being necessairy, he would go 
 on the witness stand and substantiate the contents of the letter. 
 
 Q. Arnid that letter you have seen how lately? A. I don't 
 think T have seen it from the time I got it and put it in my 
 pocket. 
 
 Q. Was there any arrangement between you and the flreman 
 that that letter should be aonfldential ? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. "V^Tiy did you speak of it as beiug made colnftdential ; yora 
 don't know amy reasom why? A. ISToi, sir. 
 
 Q. it was not marked! " pirlilvate? " A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. When did yloui first speak to anybody about getting that 
 letter? A. I don't I'emeaniber speaking to anybody except Mr. 
 Quigg. 
 
 Q. Dold you tell him you got it? A. I can't say I mentioned 
 this flremam's name anld substantially what he told me in the 
 letter. 
 
 Q. When did you tell Quigg thiajt? A. I can't say. 
 
 Q. TA^itMn the last week? A. 'No, sir. 
 
 Q. Since the article in the neiwspaiper? A. The matter went 
 out of mj milnd. 
 
 Q. When did it com.e back? A. This morning when I saw 
 the witness in the courtroom; he asked me if I had the letter, 
 and I told himj I tholuight I had. 
 
 Q. You would produce the letter if youi could find it? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. It is not because the letter does wot conjbain anything that 
 was not testiJfied to that yofui refuse to produce it? A. I didn't 
 hear his evidence laind don^t fcnjoiw what it was. 
 
 Q. You knew the substamce of his evid&nce? A. He was not 
 on the stamd when I lefltL 
 
 F. 31 
 
2-12 
 
 Q. Dom't yoiui know he testifiedl about |90? A. I beamd lie 
 was to testify to a oonversatiloini with the foreman'. 
 
 Q. YlOTi knew the sutostance of it? A. I didn't know what he 
 was to testify to. 
 
 Q. HJaTe yoiu had ajny comTersartion with! hSlm abtout that letter? 
 A. I dom^t bteliere I did until this' morning. 
 
 Q. Have you. had a previous talk with him? A. I can't say 
 positively, because T have had so much talk that whether I had 
 a talk with him or not I don't recollect. 
 
 Q. TSIietn you got this letter in writing, stating that officers 
 were going to o^alige $90 for such a matter, for corruption pur- 
 poses, vvhy diidin't yoiu, under this rule, section 20, go and com- 
 municate it to your superior officers? A. I cam't accoiunt for 
 that , ; 
 
 Q. You tliought it affected the interest of the department? 
 A. I thought it affected the intereist of onr people more thto 
 the interest of the diep]axtmient. 
 
 Q. Suppose itfc did affect youi more than the interest of the 
 department; didn't it affect the iintenesits' of the 'dtepartmenit? A- 
 T suppose a sdanldal like thlat wonld. 
 
 Q. Does it briing the whoile department in disgrace? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. It makes infaimJoiuBi a large bnalnch of the service? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Stamps the men connected with it as ooirrupt? A. Not 
 all the men. 
 
 Q. Does lit stamp as infamous those who were engaged in it? 
 A. Yes., soir. 
 
 Q. You didn't deem it your duty to oommumloate to your 
 superiors? A. ifo, sir. 
 
 Q. And yoii now cam't find the letter? A. No, sir. 
 
 William L. Findley, being duly sworn as a) witness and 
 examined by Mr. Eoot, testifleid as follows: 
 
 Q. You are a member of the bar of New York citty? A. I am. 
 
 Q. You have been; for many years? A. Yets. 
 
 Q. You are counsel flor the fire department? A. I am. 
 
 Q. You were present at al meetakig- of the cities comtmittee of 
 the Senarte on the firemen's isal^iry bill in Februairy of this year? 
 A. I was. : . • I 
 
 Q. Was the date of that hiearing the 261ii of Febmiairy? A. 
 I can't recall the date; it was soinie day in February; the e^act 
 day I can not recall no<w. i 
 
 Q. Was Pavey, of the Asis«tnbly, present aitl ttat hearing? 
 A. He was. . "i 
 
243 
 
 Q. I hiare a letter froani Paivey wMcli' say® tliiat it was tlie 26th 
 of February, you have noi reason to doiubt tkat? A. No, sir; it 
 was immediately before the report of the bill with the officers' 
 amendment. 
 
 . Q. The report was- lieceiTed the next day after the hearing? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At the timie you went up to the hearting had you ever 
 heard of the officers' aimemdiment? A. I had not. 
 
 Q. Did you helar of ift at the time offl the hearilng? A. I did. 
 
 Q. From whom? A. I first heard of it from Senator Rob- 
 ertson. 
 
 Q. Whart did he siay abou* ilt? A. It was first spoken of before 
 the committee hiad organized. 
 
 5y Senator O'Cownoir: 
 
 Q. Is Senator Robertson a member of the committee? A. 
 Yes, siiT. 
 Q. Was this in the committee room? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. He spoke to you about ilt? A. Yes,, sir. 
 
 Q. What -di'd he say? A. I had been introduced to him by 
 Senator Aheaim, and I siaild to the Senator that I had been sent 
 by the fire commissioners to oppose one feature of the salary 
 bill, and in the conversation Senator Robertson told me he 
 was goinj^ to introduce an amendment to the bill providing for 
 an increase ia the officers salaries, and I told him it was the 
 first I had heard of any such proposed legislation. 
 
 Q. That was before thie hearing? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was that all that waisi siaid on the subject before the hear- 
 ing? A. I think it is ail I recall. 
 
 Q. Then the hearing took plaice? A. Yes; and on the heairing 
 the subject was again mentioned by Senator Robertsou; the 
 question was aslced and addresised to myself duritng the state- 
 ment I was making of the views of the diepartment upon the 
 salary bill, that it was proposed tor make that amendment; the 
 Senator addressing his remark to; the committee rather than to 
 me, and I. was asked whether I had anything to say in oppoisii- 
 tion to thlat; thait was during the hearing. 
 
 Q. What did you say? A. I saidi thiart I hadl come there as 
 the representaitaYe of the board of fire domimissiomers, with 
 instruictions upon one poSkit and without aaiy further instruc- 
 tions, and was not authiorized to speak to them, on that. 
 
 Q. Was the amendment offered during your presence in the 
 committee room? A. I am not clear in my recollection about 
 that; I don't recollect, • 
 
2i4 
 
 Q. Was not tlite substance of it stated? A. The substance 
 was stated. 
 
 Q. State whether this bill which I hand you, Senate bill 242, in- 
 tTOduicttory 232, is the bill as it stoiod before the officers amend- 
 ment? A. The biU we had before the committee was the Parey 
 bill; this is Hhe Eobertson bill, but it seems to be substanttiajly 
 the same bill as it stotod before the amendment. 
 
 Q. Plleasie to loiok at the bill which I now hand you, Seiniate 
 bill 242, journal order Na 161, introductoiry 232, and state 
 whether that is the bill with the officers' laanenidiment incorpo- 
 rated in it? A. It is. 
 
 Q. The first part of tliis bill, journal order 161, is ain thtee 
 words: "Section 1. On and after the fiast day of January, one 
 thousand eight hundred and ninety-six, the salary of the chief 
 of the flre department in cities having according to the last 
 census a population exceeding one million five hundred, thou- 
 sand, shall be six thousand dollars; the salary of the two dK^puty 
 chiefs shall bte for each ft^rty-five hundred doUaxs; the salary 
 of chiefs of battalion shall be for each thirty-five hundr'eid 
 dollars; the salary of captains or foremen shJaill be for each 
 twenty-five hundired dollairs; the salary of the aissistant caintain 
 or assistant ftoemen shall bte for each' two thousand dollars ;" 
 was that the amendment to which yom referred? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And is that the amendment which Bobertsoini told you he 
 was going to offer? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator O'Oonmoir. — The original bill amendteid the Consoli- 
 dation act? 
 
 Mr. Eoot — The original bill did; the bill, as reported with 
 the ofSicieirs amendment, is in the form of a general act which 
 takes advantage oif that very itagenliloiiis device of naming cities 
 having a population of a; million and aJ half. 
 
 Q. Do yoni remember whether Sh'effleld was present at that 
 hearing? A. He wiasi not pnesent at that heaining; I saw him 
 afterwaird. 
 
 Q. He was in Albany on that day? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do yoii knoiw when the committee decided to report the 
 Iiobertson bill with this amendment? A. I do. 
 
 Q. When? A. About an hour after the hearing I learned tbat 
 they had decilded to report the bill with Ihat amendment. 
 
 Q. Did they make the change which yoti asked in behalf of 
 the department? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. The report was agreed upon without paying amy attention 
 to your request on behalf o* the department? A. It was. 
 
 Q. And without giving Sheffield any opportunity to be heard? 
 
 (Mr. Raines objected to witness answering that question, in 
 view of the fact tlilat he had stated thiat Sheffield was not there.) 
 
245 
 
 Senator O'Cksnnor. — Had tlie cttminittee been infoiimied tbiat 
 Sheffield wanted to be heard? 
 
 Mr. Boot.- — Mr. Sheffield testified he had been promised a 
 hearing. \ 
 
 The Witness. — ^I can make this statement nipom that point. 
 At that hearing Mr. Pavey alsoi opposed the aimemdment affect- 
 ing; the officers pay. Mr. Pavey opposed that amendment and 
 asked to ha,Te the matter held open until Mr. SOieffield could 
 come before the committee, Mr. Shieffield being ttten before 
 another committee, and that request was not gralnted I know, 
 because ttie hearing was otosed, and I then went to tlie 
 Senate chajmiber, where Mr. Sheffield was arguing another bill 
 before a joint hearing oifi twio committees, and after tliat hearing 
 was over Mr. Sheffield requested me toi goi oiver witih him down 
 to the cities ciommiittee of thie Senate and see whait could be 
 done with the salary bill. I hiad explained to bim the position 
 of the fire department uppnl one featmre of tihje bill, and he 
 wanted to be heard upon that, and we went down toi the com- 
 mittee roomi together, and tlhen learned that the committee had 
 determined to (report the bill, ignoring my request upon one 
 point and Mr. Pavey's uipon the ortiher. Mr. Pavey protested 
 against the officers increase, and Mr. Shieffield and myself had' 
 a conversation with Senator Eobertson at thatt tlime; Mr. Shieffield 
 entering a very vigoirous prtotest against the action of the dom- 
 mittee liia flasteninjg that amendment npon hisi bill. 
 
 Q. WTiat did he say? A. 1 didn't charge my anind with it, 
 and I would not pretend to relate it all] the substance of it 
 was la very vigorous protest on the part of Mr. Sheffield against 
 the adding of the officers .salary feature to what he called his 
 bill; the conversation was between the three oifi us. 
 
 Q. Any arrangement been maJde for hearing Mi'. Sheffield before 
 the ooonmlLttee? A. No, sir; this remark was made, That the 
 bill would be reported in that form on not at all, and the ques- 
 tion of the hearing was foreclosed. 
 
 By Senator O'ODnnor: 
 
 Q. Who said tihat? A. Senator Robertson. 
 
 Q. He said the bill wonid be reported in that form or not at 
 all? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did' Sheffield say to thiat? A. I don't remember hist- 
 expression, except th&t he was very much dissatisfied. 
 
 Q. Did he tell Eioibertson whiat it looked like to him? A. 
 There was some conversation between Senator Elobertson and 
 Shieffield, the details of wMch I don't remember; Mr. Sheffield 
 was not at all pleased, as his convensation indicated, but the 
 exact language I did not charge my memory with. 
 
246 
 
 I5y Mr, Eainas: 
 
 Q. AVhat -was this feature of the Pavey bill youi were instructPd 
 by the Are oouimissioners to oppose? A. The law, as it existed 
 before the passage of the Parey bill, provided that members of 
 the force after serving a certain length of time in the thitd 
 grade should be advanced' to the second grade, providing their 
 record and conduct were such as .were satlisfactory to the fire 
 coiamissioners; and then, when i^j served a certain length' of 
 tim.e in the second gmaide they should be advanced to the first 
 grade, provided again their conduct ajnid reciord were satisfac- 
 tory; the Pavey bill eliminated that feature of the law; that Is, 
 the approval of the superioipg, and made the advancement manda- 
 tory wheniever the man had sei-ved the time requined by law. 
 ' Q. The advance gajve them additiomal pay? A- Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And wais conditlioned upon and subject to the approval of 
 their superiors? A. Yes', sir. 
 
 Q. So that provision was eliminated from the Pavey bill and 
 became a law? A. The Pavey bill eMmiinated that feature from 
 the existing law, and was never amended and went through 
 in that form. 
 
 Q. So the commissioners were not satisfied with the provisions 
 of the Pavey bill in that respect? A. At that time I was repre- 
 senting the board, as it existed at that time; whether the present 
 board is satisfied with that or not T do not kntow. 
 
 Q. You have never represented any other board than the 
 board as it existed at the time of this hearing? A. I had not 
 
 Q. Any different view of the matter afterward given you bv 
 these coimnissioners? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Your instruictions were ditect from the board of fire com- 
 missioners? A. By word, of mouth. 
 
 Q. At a meeting of the board? A. I am not sure whether 
 there was a formal action of the board in directing mie; two 
 commissioners were together. 
 
 Q. "Which were those? AL Elolbbins and Eickhoff. 
 
 Q. The board is constituted of how many? A. Three. 
 
 Q. Upon that you went to Albany to oppose the Pavey act or 
 for the purpose of havihg it amended in that particular? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At the expense and as counsel for the depajrtment? A. 
 I did. 
 
 Q. Were you instructed to say anything else in regard to the 
 bill? A. I was not. 
 
 Q. Did Sheffield have a hearing ih' tide cities coimmittee while 
 you were in Albany? A. Not ih my presence. 
 
247 
 
 Q. He was attorney tor thie flremen representing the Paivey 
 bill? A. I so understood it. 
 
 Q. Yon went there once on the subject of th^t bill? A. But 
 once. 
 
 Q. In the committee, at a fomxal hearing, yora say you bad the 
 substance of this ofQcers amendment! stated to you, and you 
 declined to commit the tommissiioners in any way? A. That 
 is true. 
 
 Q. How long a notSice h^d you had of th'at hearing? A. I got 
 notice in the afternoon of the previbius d'ay. 
 
 Q. In what way? A. From the commissioners. 
 
 Q. How long did they have notice of thte hearing? A. I don't 
 know. 
 
 Q. Your, attentiion wafe called privately to the officers amend- 
 ment before . the meeting in the committee? A. It was. 
 
 Q. And I suppose you told him substantially what you told 
 in the meeting? A. I think I did. 
 
 Q. And did yoiu' subsequently have a communication with 
 Eobertson in regard to the amendment? A. Only suCh ais may 
 have taken place when Sheffield was jinesent. 
 
 Q. At that tiime did you have any different instrtuctiions from 
 the commissioners? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. And you said nothing different to him than before? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. Did Eobtertsom ask you, in the conversajtibn before the 
 meeting ol the committee, whether the Are commissioners! would 
 assent to am increaise of salaiies of the officers? A. A quiestion 
 of thiaJt kiind wais asked me by some member of the committee, 
 whether by Senator Eobertson or not I do not know; 1 remem- 
 ber of being asked whether the members of the fire commission 
 would be opposed to an amendment of that ki|nid, but I don't 
 remember whether Robertson or some other Senator asked me 
 the question. 
 
 Q. To whom was it that Senator Robertson saiid that the bill 
 would be reported in that form, with the officers amendment 
 on it or not att all ? A. The remark was made to Mr. Sheffield ; 
 it ^'as in substance that; I don't Icdjow that that exact language 
 was used; it conveyed to my mdinid, and I presume to Mr. 
 Sheffield's, tihat the oommitteei h!ad determined to report the 
 bill in that foirlm. 
 
 Q. Had there been a pretty heated controversy between Sena- 
 tor Robetrtson and Mr. Sheffield? A. I should not say it was 
 heated. 
 
248 
 
 Q. Robertson appeared to be apgry abouit thie mlatter? Al. Ifo; 
 if anybody was angry it wasi Sheffield. 
 
 Q. He thioiught and stebted Ms bill, as he oalledl jt, was being 
 tampered with? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the idea that the Legislature sihould put an amend- 
 ment on his bill was an unwarrantable ilnterlerence with what 
 he was being employeid to take oare of? A. Mr. Sheffield 
 seemed to take it as a personal matter that Senator Robertson 
 should have made an amendment to his bill without notifying 
 him. 
 
 By Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. Senator Robertson had introduced in the Sena<te the same 
 bill that Mr. Pavey had in the house? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It amounted to this, that Senator Robertson having under- 
 taken to take chaiTge of the bUl in the Senate put on it an 
 amendment which killed it, without giving Sheffield notice. 
 
 Senator Cantor. — That is unfaiir. 
 
 (The committee took a recess until 2.30 ©("clock in the after- 
 noon.) 
 
 AFTER RECESS. 
 
 Mr. Root. — I offer toi read thie report of sf^lect coni'mittee of 
 the Senate of thi's State, dated March 11, 1869, signed " Senators 
 Matthew Hale, Francis S. Thayer and Asher P. Nichols," docu- 
 ment 'No. 52, Senate documents of 1869: 
 
 "Report of the select committee, of thie Senate, appointed 
 April 10, 1868, in relation to members receiving money from 
 railway compianliles. 
 " To the Senate: 
 
 "The select committee appointed pursuant to the resolution 
 passed " — 
 
 Mr. Raines. — I suppose this is the proper time to interpose 
 an objection, as this is not within the scope of the dlnvestigation. 
 
 The Chairman. — I don't know; I can't tell yet. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — Eighteen hjindred and sixty-nine? 
 
 The Chairman. — Wdl, I can't tell what it is yet. 
 
 Mr. Rooit. — It relates directly toi one of the statementtei in 
 the article in Tbe Press, 
 
 Mr. RiainesL— There is nothing in the Senatte's (resolution 
 which relates to anything but the raising of a fund for the 
 firemen. 
 
 The Ohainnan. — And' negotiation. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — Andl negotiation; and we ouigihtt, on behalf of 
 the Senators — : , i 
 
249 
 
 Tire Cli)aiiimnaii. — I tbink we will taikle it. We imre been 
 pretty liberal so far, and I think we will talce tliis. 
 
 Mr. Kioioti (reads). — "The select committee, appoibted piuirsiuant 
 to tlie resolution passed April 10, 1868, toi inquire and ascertain 
 whether amy piairty or piairties, interested in supportiaig or oppos- 
 ing any measiures relaiting to railway companies, has, eitther by' 
 person or by agents, either directly or indirectly, paid or offered 
 to pay any member or members of the Senate, during that 
 session, any money or other yaluable tMng, to influence his or 
 their votes or aotion ' in Senate or committee; ' and the fuirther 
 resolution passed May 1, 1868, by which said committee was 
 authorized to sit during the recess and to report toi the next 
 regular session of the Senate; respectfully reports: 
 
 "That your committee entered immediately upon the duties 
 assigned to them and have been engaged in the ihvestigation 
 on which they entered at various times during the session of 
 18C8, the recess of the Legislature and the present scission. 
 
 "Your committee's attention has bee'n called, principally, to 
 the great contest of lasiti sessioni, between the friends and 
 opponents of what was commonly known as the 'Erie Bill,' 
 which resulted in the passage of an act entitled 'An act ini rela- 
 tion to Che Erife', New York Central, Hudson Elver and Harlem 
 Eailway Compianieis,'' passed April 21, 1868. 
 
 " Your committee first called before them and examined siome 
 of those who had been, by rumor, most widely designated as 
 lobbyists, or persons in attendkuice on the Legislaiture, engaged 
 on either side of this controversy. Messrs. John D. Butcher amd 
 Abraham Van Vechten, who w^re known as opponents of the 
 bill, and Messrs. Hugh J. ITaistings, Jay Gould, Julian Williams 
 amd Dyer I). R. Brown, who were among the advocates of the 
 measure; also, the treasurer of the Hudson River and Harlem 
 Railroad, cor]>oration's siipposed to be interested in atnd oppos- 
 ing the bill. 
 
 "These persons all denied any kniowledge or information, 
 other than that derived from conuaon nmior, of the use or offer 
 of any money or valuable thing, or any promise or offer of 
 moneys for the purposes indicated in the resolution. 
 
 " The attention olfi your committee was next called tO' an^ article 
 in the New York Tribune, charging ihat one Senator had taken 
 money on both sides, and that over |100,000' has been paid to 
 irfluence corruptly the action of other Senators in the premises. 
 
 " They summoned before them the writer of this aiiicle, Hon. 
 Horace Greely, to a'scertain the evidence upon which it was 
 written. The name of Hbn. Thomais O. Field was given by Mr. 
 Greely as that of his infornmntL Your committee, accordingly, 
 
 r. 32 
 
250 
 
 siiraiirioned him, and also SenalJor Malttoon, and Mr. [A!sabel M. 
 Cole, whose niames were mentioned by Mr. Greely. 
 
 " Toward the close of the session a Senator who hiad received 
 information that led him to belileve that loibbyistis had' attempted 
 to get money fr'om the Menlds of the 'Erie BUI,' on the pre- 
 "tense that he eould thereby secure his vote, called thfei attention 
 of your committee to snch information, in consequience of which 
 subpoenas were issued, and, after some difQcuiIty, the attendance 
 of Messrs Johns and Van' Volkenbiuirgh, and Lewils F. Pajyn, was 
 procured. The faicts, as testified to by them, are stated in the 
 subsequent part of this report." 
 
 I pass the subsequent pairts of the report, omitting matters 
 which seem to me to be immiateriaJ. 
 
 "It is evident from the teistimony that large amounts of money 
 were aictually paid for variouB purposea Mr. Giould paid |5,000 
 to Mr. Lewis Payn, and $2,000 to some person (he thinks his 
 name was William King), for Mr. D. D. Sl Brown, of Kodhester, 
 and something more than |25,000, and he tihinks less than 
 $50,000, not including paynaents by drafts to counsiel and agents. 
 
 "The testimony leaves no dbiubt In the minds of your com- 
 mittee that large sums of money were, in fact, furnished with 
 the intent that they should be used for purposes of influencing 
 legislation unlawfully. In the only ca.ses iln which your com- 
 mittee have been able to obtain any dilrect eviidenice, the moneys 
 so furnished, were not, in fact, used for the purpose inljended, 
 but went to enrfch the members of the lobby. 
 
 "The case of Lewis F. Payn fuTuishes a. remarkable example 
 of cnedulitty on the part of the parties expending money, and of 
 impudence and duplicity on the part of the p|er!son receiving it. 
 
 "Payn was a harbor master in New York, and, as such, re- 
 ceiving, as he testifies, the sum of |350 iper month. He had 
 neveir been in the employ of a railroad company — had no pro- 
 fession, nor any extensive general a;cquai(ntianice or influence. 
 Still, he was paffld the sum of |1 0,000, as he pretends, for a few 
 days' services in Albany, in advocating the 'Eriie Bill.' 
 
 " Mr. Thompson paid him $5,000 in New York, and Mr. Gotdd, 
 lihouigh he ' didn't take much stock ' in Mm, as he says (not hav- 
 ing heard of Thompson's payment), gave hSIm $5,000 here 'to 
 smooth him over.' It will not be credited that these amounts 
 were paid him simply for serviees. They were obtained from 
 him ais no one can dotuibt from reading the evidence, on the pre- 
 tense that, with such a sum, he conld secure a Senator's vote. 
 The testimony of Van Volkenburgh, with that of Mr. Thompson 
 and Senator Palmer, is conclusive upon this point, and it was 
 only on ascertaining thiat the Senator referred to was opposed 
 
2J)1 
 
 to the bill, and that his character for integrity and Iwmor was 
 so high' as to render any effort in producing a ohaaige in liis 
 views or actions by pecuniary inducements, mot only useless, but 
 absurd, that the attempt was made to get back the money from 
 Payn, which gave rise to the angry contiwersy sworn tot by 
 Van Volkenburgh, whicihJ led to bringing the matter to the 
 knowledige of the Senator, whiose surprise aad indignation at 
 the discovery of so base an attempt toi make anerchamdise of his 
 good name, caused him to give youn committee the information 
 which enabled them to discover thiese facts." 
 
 I beg to call the attention lOf the cammittee to the fact that 
 it appears, by the remaindler of this report, which. I will not 
 detain you by reading, that the inifloirmation upon which Mr. 
 Greely conceived it to be his duty toi make th.e pnblioatioin lead- 
 ing to this investigatilO(n, was not one-tenth part^ ais extensive, 
 as pointed, or as substantial as that upon which the New York 
 Press published tbe aartiele leading tk> the investigaiiion now 
 proceeding. 
 
 I think, sir, that that completes thtei testunomy included in 
 the offer which I made at the opening of tEis investigation, to 
 supply the committee with, evidence of thie faicts upon which 
 the article of April 18th. was publi'died by "Thie Press news- 
 paper. I suppose that this is not a proper time to detain the 
 committee by any extended remarks about those facts. I should 
 he happy, if the committee wishes, at such future time as they 
 desire it, to giVe such assistance as may be ikivolved in a siuccinct 
 statement of the facts which we conceive to have been estab- 
 lished by this evidence. Of course, many pieces of evidence, as 
 they hlarre come out, have not had that significance fbr the com- 
 mittee, which they have had in the miind of the counsel, and it 
 may be useful to the cotaimfittee that two and two should be put 
 together, from the things testified to by the different witnesses. 
 
 The .Chairman. — The committeie thinks, Mr. Eoot, thiat any 
 summing up of oolunsiel shjoiuildi be at Albany. 
 
 Mr. Eoot. — I do not tMmk of oecnpyinig any such piosition as 
 coimlsel summiing up. 
 
 SenatoiP Oantor. — Any suggestion you desire to miake, in^ re- 
 gard to the evSdenoe, eitheir in writing or orally, shiould be made 
 at Albany, under the circumstamices. 
 
 Mr. Boot.— I hairdly feel like maMng any argument. I do not 
 feel that I have anything to argue. This is an ilnvestigation 
 which the committee is prosecuting, and I will try to help the 
 conunlttee all I can. I ciame here to assist the committee by 
 putting it duly in the possession of the evidence on which that 
 article was biised, I may say here that we consider we have 
 
252 
 
 proTed, by competent eTidence, tlie stateiiLerits rtiad'e at tlie 
 time that the matter was proceeding, the oollectiiO'n of this fund 
 was proceeding, by seven different pairticipants in the action, 
 to the fact thajt tihle momey was being cioillected. The statements 
 of some of thoise pairdlcipants have been prored by mnmerous 
 witnesses. We have shiowm, not only statements by participants 
 in that transaiction, olfi what was going on at the timt, .and 
 which, of coiurae, ajre staitemlentis against interests, admissions 
 which are proiof of ai high order in themselves, but we ha^'e 
 shown actual effort, miade in the course of proisecuting the 
 enterprise, tloi secure ,icOHopieraition and contriblutlon from the 
 uniform force of the fire depaortment. ThioBe statements came 
 from Quinn, one of the offici^rs, as testified to by Firemur; Clif- 
 ford; from Asisistant Foreman Smitth, as testified to by Eothen 
 Ilausler; by Sheridan, by Conway, and by Ward. 
 
 Mr. RainesL — I suppose we should have am. oppiorhinity to 
 reply, even at this time, to the comiments of counsel. 
 
 The Chairman. — We want to give everybody a chance. 
 
 Mr. Eoot. — I merely wilsh to indiciaJte what I think is their 
 situation as I leave it. From Assistant Foreman Eeed, as testi- 
 fied to by Zom and Kelly; from O'Reilly, the secretary of the 
 officers' association, as testified to by Mr. Samuel B. French; 
 from Foreman Cartwright, as testified to by Fitemen Fitzgerald 
 and Whelan; from Officers Clark and Landiers', as testified to by 
 Eyan. And we have, moireover, shown the exi'stenre of a book 
 belongSIng to- Officer Honan, Assistant Foi'eman IJorau, contain- 
 ing a detailed statemient of- all the officers of his battalion, and 
 the amxmnts paid by them towaird this fund, with a statement 
 of those who paid, andi the one who did not pay; and that book 
 containing that statement, beilnig produced, proves to ha\e b*"en 
 mutilartted, and the account which was contained in it, at the 
 time, to have been removed from it; and we cousider that we 
 have allso shown that Mr. Bonner, chief of the fire department, 
 resigned from the officeirs association, because of what be knew, 
 or understood to be goitng on at tMs very time. And the other 
 unfortumate circumstance, which has been so much referi*ed to 
 here, as connected with this transaction, I will not refer to 
 again. Those stateanents we consider to fully justify the entire 
 basis of The Press adlcle. We certainly have alsoi shown that 
 Mr. Pa,yni was in charge of thils measure at Albany; that, by 
 his own statement, he put this aanendment on the bill, and that 
 he took it off. We have certainly shown that Mr. Payn was 
 a notoiToais lobbyist, as he was called in the arllcle. We haxe 
 shown that, in fact, the names of the Senators who were men- 
 tioned! in that' article as being- mentioned' by the firemen, were 
 
253 
 
 mentiomied by them in exact, accopdance with that statement. 
 Whethier aill tliese faiets point to ihe conclusion which the 
 article claims thery point to, is something whicti the committee 
 car. judge of themsel"^es'. That is a luattei' of inference rather 
 than of evidence. And, under those circimistances, I can see 
 that I have performed my duty toward t!ie committee. If, at 
 any time in Ihe future, we should be in possession of any infor- 
 mation which the committee wishes, or which seems to me to 
 he useful to the committee, we shall be pleased to furnish it, 
 and shall do so if called upon, or if anythi'ng comes to' our handsi 
 which seemis to 'us would be useful, alflter being called upon. 
 
 Senator Cantor. — The committee would like to have any in- 
 foiTnation which may come into yoair possession. 
 
 Mr. Booh — And I will now th'ank the committee for their 
 eourtasiy and attention to what I have had to say. 
 
 The Ohairmian. — ^I wouldi like toi say, right here, that while 
 this investigation, by the resolution of the Senate, is limit'^d to 
 certain charges contained in The Press, as to the three Senators 
 named in that article the other day, in the examination of Com- 
 missjomer La Grange, the name of Senator Ahearn was jnen- 
 tioned in connection with siome statements from Mr. McCabe. 
 Senator Alieam is here and desires to call a. witness or two in 
 reference to an explanation, or a denial, of that evidence. The 
 committee, while it ils entirely outside of tliis investigation, 
 think that it is fair to Senator Ahearn that that privilege should 
 he extended. Unless there is some objection by counsel, the 
 committee would like to have thai, evidence produced now. 
 
 Mr. Boot. — With reference to that remark, the committee will, 
 of course, understand that The Press newspaper makes no 
 charges against ^Mr. Aheami? 
 
 Ttie Chairman. — Yes; we tmderstand that. 
 
 Mr. Boot. — And that T have not brought out, by any examina- 
 tion of mine, any reference (o him whatever. The only refer- 
 ence to him came from the fact that my friend, Mr. Eaines, 
 asked for Greneral La Grange's memorandum, which General 
 La. Grange gave him with some reluctance, and he, himself, 
 brought out the reference upon the memorandum to Mr. Ahearn. 
 Ft was not at all brought out by us, and I am very sorry that 
 it was done. 
 
 Mr. Baines.— T think, Mr. Chairman, that the suggestion 
 which ha® been made with i^egard to hearing Senator Aieam, 
 is entirely proper and within the province of the eonmdttee. 
 
 But, before proiceedlinig to that statement, it seems to me that 
 it is due to thtae who are oomicerned in this investigation that 
 
254 
 
 some little comments be made upon the remarkable statements 
 which counsel has maidfe to thle oomunittee, with reference to 
 what, in his mind, is the neoessary inflerence as to the fact 
 estaiblished or suggested by the investigation up to this point. 
 The scope of the investigatiloai, as defined by the resolution, was 
 to ascertaini whether a fund had been raised, actually, by the 
 firemen of the city of New York, for the purpose of affecting 
 this bill, by itsi amendment in favor of the officers, incidental 
 to an inquiry as to the fact whether negotiations had been 
 entered into or coMducted by certain Senators, named in the 
 article. This statement which counsel has made of what, in 
 his judgment, he has established here, only brings out more 
 distinctly, and in bolder outline, the utter failure to establish 
 anything strictly within the lines of the investigation, as de- 
 fined by the resolution of the Senate. Instead of establishing 
 that any fund has been raised, or that Senators have been en- 
 gaged in any negotfatibn with reference to that, or that any 
 negotiations have been conducted in their behalf, the investiga- 
 tion, so far, has estabttfiished that nothinig of the kind has actually 
 occuJTlred. But, oni the contrary, gossip in the iire-houses in the 
 city of New York, between' officers and men;, with neference 
 to the poissibilities of isiuich an' undertaking, and with reference 
 to entering into such ajn umdertaikLng, did occur; and, beyond 
 that gossip, in a fire-h'ouise, m.y Mend's have not extended their 
 investigation or have not addtuicedl proof upon the lines of this 
 investigation, to establshl la) single fact. On the contrary, now 
 abandoning to the leglilslatilve committee and to the other side 
 ihe conduct of this investigation, they say, "We rest our case, 
 without ever producing a man of the 198 ofl'cers of the fire 
 department of the city of New York whoi has contribiited a 
 dollar to any cowuption fund, without having produced anybody 
 who hais contributed a dollar to any corruption fund, or who 
 can testify to the name of a single person who contributed a 
 dollar toi such a corruption fund."' XnA, therefore, that brings 
 the investigatioln, as totally abandoned by them and confessed 
 to be, beyond the information which they, at any time had, 
 either at the time of the publication of this article, or by meams 
 of an investigation conducted by the officers of the fire depart- 
 ment of the city of New York; they confess that it has been 
 impossible to develop a single piece of testimony or a single 
 witness to establish any of the substantial matters on which, as 
 defined by thte resolutSiOn of the Senate, this investigation is 
 based. As sujggestedl by Mr. Boot, it is not claimed by him 
 that their proof goes beyond thie fact that, in three fire-hoiuses 
 of the city of New Yoirk, there have been statements made by 
 
2gs ; 
 
 firemen that tliey were willilng to enter into a deal with them, 
 with reference to raising moniey, to influence this hill in the 
 Legislature. But no gosBip of this descripllon has been sup- 
 plemented by the gentlemen thaJt sndh a fnn4 was raised^ that 
 such a snm was pai'd; but, on the contrary, our friends now 
 desert the inyestigati^n at the crucial point of ascertaining the 
 fact whether such a fund was raised, which was the purpo'se 
 of this investigation. And, in turning the investigation over to 
 the O'their side, we are compelled, of cooxrsie, to tumi to the gen- 
 llemen who have knowledge of whether snich a fund was raised, 
 and pmoduce them upon the witness stand, to establish a proof 
 of the matter. Our friends have, with leer and insinuation, with 
 regard to the 198 officers of the fire department oi the city of 
 Xew York, established in their minds, or suggested that they 
 are not men of credit; that they are men of corrupt purposes, 
 and that they have dealt corruptly; but my friends have accom- 
 plished it only by leer and iinsinuatl'on ; and, deserting the in- 
 vestigation at this point, where thie reputations of 198 men 
 are left subject to their imputation, without proof, it becomes 
 the duty of the other side to call here those men, for the pur- 
 pose of establishing the fact that nothing of the kind was ever 
 dome. With regard tb the substantial matter under iliyestiiga^ 
 lion, the coniPession which has been~ ma'de by IMr. Quigg, that 
 Ms entire ajrtiole, so far as he used the names olf the Senators, 
 was based upon the statement of Rothenhausler to him, so 
 often and in such varied formei confessed by Mr. Quigg; and 
 the fact that Eiothlenhialusler, upon the witness stand, said that 
 he did not tell Mr. Quigg that theii* names had been coupled 
 by anybody with any oorirupt legislation whatever, and he did 
 not tell Mr. Quigg that they had — is a confession on the part 
 of these gentlemen that mot only have they never had any proof 
 upon which they were autJiorized to use the names of these 
 Senators so unfairly ais they were used in this arti'cle, but that 
 to-day, with all the light of weeks of official and private interro^ 
 gation of the men connected with thIe fire department of the 
 city of New York, they are, absolutely, without a scintilla of 
 evidence — I do not speak of competent legal evidence; but with- 
 out a scintilla of hearsay proof to justify any of the allegations 
 made by the editoirial and the article upon the first page of The 
 Press of April 18th. Mr. Quigg stands contradicted by Rothen- 
 hausleir and Oliffofd, distincfbly, upon the point whether these 
 Senators names were in any way mentioned to him in con- 
 nection, with corrupt negotiation; and he stands, therefore, at 
 the end of majkihg his case, by the leaimed and most able coun- 
 sel, betfioire this colmimiittee, as having violently assailed reputa- 
 
2S6 
 
 tions wMch' were dear to Senators and important to "l>e pre- 
 served to the people tbey represented, without a sinntilla of 
 proof lamd from motives of sJiame an'd malice. For, at this 
 point, I miuist call, the atteintion of my friend to th.e fact tliat but 
 for the vote given by Ooggeshall and Kaines, on the 17th day 
 of Aprdl, in the Sematte judiciaiy cioimmittee, on tbe judiclaJ sales 
 bill, in which Mr. Quigg was endearoring to advance tlie in- 
 terests of private parti^es, tlliat publiication would not hare ap- 
 jtieai-ed on the 18th day of April, in Thie Press, showing that 
 information with regard to the firemen's salairy bill, all of which 
 came to his knowledge, soi far as he had it, on the 18th day of 
 April, previous to the 10th and 14th' days of March. Was held 
 by hiim, not deemed worthy of anything by him, not being 
 worthy of publication, until twoi Senators, in the exercise of their 
 discretion and of their wisdom, with regar'd to matters of legis- 
 lation pending before thiem, had refused tO' advance a bill in 
 which Mr. Quigg was privaitely, and for personal reasons, in- 
 terested, amidi far ramiote in its relation to the city of New York. 
 This oomfession upon the witness stand was amply and broadly 
 miade by Mr. Quiigg and leaves three Senators who haTe been 
 under ilnTestigati'om here, in, the absence of all proof, connecting 
 them jn) any way with comupt negoitiations of any kind, with 
 the right to claim that that suggestion of their names, in those 
 corrupt assoicia,tiioms, was borne of a malice which should hot 
 have controlled the editorial columns in any respectably con- 
 ducted newspaper in the cit^ of New York or in the world. I 
 do not choose to goi beyond the records which lia,A'e bean made 
 by Eotiolenhansler, by the statements which he has made upon 
 the witness stand, that his only use of the names of these three 
 Senators was to say that they were friendlsi of the officers amend- 
 ment, was the only groaind upon which he made use of the 
 names of Senators Qoiggeshall lamd Raines; and the testimony 
 of Mrs. O'Reilley, the testimony of -Rothenhausier, that she used 
 the name of Elobertson in the conversation, denied so strongly 
 by Mrs. O'Eieilley upon the stand, Avas the only other basis upon' 
 which hie used the name of Senaitor Robertson. Oomment upon 
 such a reflection upon the character of men in public life is the 
 statement of the fact, as it now stands confessed^ at the close 
 of thei'r evidence, and that is all that is necessary toi illustrate 
 that this chairge was bom of malice and invention, and that 
 there was never giVen to Mr. Quigg, at the time he printed this 
 article, any piece of any desicription whatsoever, or any sug- 
 gestion of these Senators' names in any way in connection with 
 corrupt dealing of any description whatsoever. I deem it fain 
 to my clients, befoipe this committee, at this time, merely to 
 
257 
 
 make these observatioini upon; tke condition of their proof, be- 
 cause Mr. Boot seemed to think that in some way the interest 
 of his client woluld be advanced before this committee, or the 
 public, by some statement of what their claim was, a® the 
 result of the proofsi that Have been siubmitted upon either side, 
 and I have not intended to ga beyond aiui analysis of the pi-oofs 
 in the remarks whicli I hatve made. 
 
 Daniel Bradley, being recallied, testified as follows: 
 
 Direct examinatioln by the Chaimian: 
 
 Q. Yoiu are an offloer in the fire department'? A. I am, sir. 
 Q. "WTiat poisitilon do youi occupy? A. Foreman; captain of 
 a company. 
 
 By Senator Cantor: 
 Q. Wbat compiany? A. Hook and Ladder 17. 
 
 By the Cbairman : 
 
 Q. Did you reald the statement in evidence, the other day, of 
 Commissioner La G-range, as to statements by Johu McCatee, as 
 to the paivmieht of ceortain money toi Senator Aiheam in 1893? 
 A. I did, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you, in 1893, pay any money to Senator Ahearn, in 
 connectioin with any legislation whatever, in Albany? A. I 
 did not, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you, at any time, ever pay to Senator Ahearn any 
 money? A. Never, sir. 
 
 Q. Foi^ any purpoise in oomne-ction with legislation? A. Never, 
 Sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever, at any time, tell any person that you bad 
 paid money to Senator Abearn to influence legislaition of any 
 kind at Albany? A. I never did, sir. 
 
 Q. Do yioii know of any money being paid toi Senator Abearn 
 by anybody, to influence legislation at Albany, at any time? A. 
 I did not, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. — Do you desire to' ask any questions. Senator 
 Ahearn ? 
 
 Senaitor Ahearn. — Noi, sir; I don't desire any more. The par- 
 ticular stfitenient ha.s' been made by Oommiasioner La Gnrange, 
 that a man, who is now dead, told him that he had heard that, in 
 Jamuary, 1893, Foreman Bradley had come to me and paid me 
 12,500. The bill that he referred toi was passed in 1892; that 
 was over a year — 10 or 11 mlonth's, aiflter the passage of that bill. 
 
258 
 
 Benaton Cantor.— Foreman Bradley has just dfenied' tihat he 
 ever paid yoiu any money. 
 
 The Ohaiiman.— We want to Imow if you want to ask! any 
 furthter questions. 
 
 Senaitor Aheam. — Not that I klnoiw of. 
 
 The Chairman. — Does anyone want to' ask this witness any fu)^ 
 ther questions? 
 
 By Senator Aheam: 
 
 Q. I would like to ask Foreman Bradley here, now, if h© or 
 any member of the fire department, that was ihcluded in the bill 
 there, the 12 battalion chiefs, knew of the amendtnent that I 
 added until they read it in the newspaperB\, the day after it warn 
 added? A. G^ntliemieini, if I be permitted to miakei a, statement in 
 regaild to that matter in its entirety, I would like to do sio. 
 
 Q. Do youi know if any officeir im the department knew if I had 
 amended the bill introduced, increaslhg the salary of the 12 
 battalion chiefs, until yow read of the passage of the bill, when 
 it appeared in the paper? A. I did not, sir; that was the first 
 that I knew of it. 
 
 John J. Bums, being recalled, testified as follows: 
 Direct examination by Senator Aheam: 
 
 Q. The statement lappeaired in the paper where a Mr. French 
 claimed that an assistant fareman by ithe name of O'Eeilly, if I 
 read it rightly in the papers^ Md Mr. French that it wOuld be 
 impossible for him to meet his obligation that month, owing to 
 the fact that he was compelled to put uip a certain amount of 
 money, to help to pass a bill at Albany, which was then- pending, 
 to increase the salary of oflflcers of the department; that he 
 stated that Mr. O'Eeilly had told him that, the night before, a 
 meeting was held art! a certain engine coiuipflny, where Senatoir 
 Aheam and Mc. Loiu Payn and Foireman Buimis were toigetiheT; I 
 would lUce to ask the foreman whether I ever met him in New 
 York city in my life until I met him here tohday? A. I never had 
 met Senator Ahearn in my life, to speak toi, until after that timie 
 when I was introduced to him in Albany; and I believe that he 
 and Senator Cantor were coming out of the Capitol, on the Staite 
 street side, on the 6th' Of MaiTidh, and I was introducyed by Captain 
 Freel, in the presence of Oapitain Fisihea* and Lieutlanant 
 Tobin, and irtl iis after this daJte that Mr. French speaks of. 
 
 Q. Did that meeting, asi testified to by Mr. French, ever occur? 
 A. It never oiociirre'd; Mr. Aheann was never in my engine-htonele. 
 
269 
 
 •By Senator Cantbr: 
 
 Q. That] was the tMe yoiu were up to Albany on the two .per 
 cent, bill ? A. Yes, Bilr 
 
 Mr. Ahearn. — I wonl!d like to say, Mr. Chairman and gentle- 
 men of the colnunittee, I aim here to answer those charges, jl 
 never, directly or indirectly, had any connection with the fire 
 department, as far as financial matters were concerned. My 
 interest in the fire depiartment was confined to my brother, who 
 is connected withi it. But I havie done everything I could to 
 advance the ilnterests otf the fire department. I have believed 
 that they were a brave body of men, at all times risking their 
 lives to protect the lives and interests of the public at large. 
 I would like, furthermore, to state that the statements that 
 have been made are utterly false. 
 
 The Chairman. — ^If anyone desires to put any questions to 
 Senator Aheam, of course he may do it. And I would like The 
 Presis to giK^e the same prominence to this testimony that was 
 given to the other, and I have no doubt that they will do so', 
 withont my asking them. 
 
 Senaitotr Coggeshall.^ — ^I would like to ask Senator Ahearn as 
 to what conversation, if any, I had with him as to the firemen's 
 bill, so called, to increase the pay of the firemen? 
 
 Senator Ahearn. — The bill was repoirted from: the committee 
 and came into the Senate. The day that it was brought up 
 there, in general orders, I made a motion to progress the bill, 
 and I made a statement to the Senate, detailing the duties per- 
 formed by the fire department of New Yor'k city, and dwelt 
 upon theilr duties at length, and after that the bill was pro- 
 gressed. That very day Senator Coggeshall came to me and 
 said to me, "Senator, 'after the statement that you have made 
 beire to-day, I will do all in my power to progress that bill. 
 
 Senator Coggeshall. — I would like to ask whether Senator 
 Ahearn knows htow I voted on that bill? 
 
 Mr. Raines. — Mr. Quigg, thioise are ttie original statements to 
 you, as taken down^ in wrifting, or put in writing, by Rothen- 
 hausler anid Cliffoird, at the time of their commiunication to you? 
 (Showing papers to Mr. Quigg.) 
 
 Mr. Quiigg. — Yes^ — ^not at the time. Let nue explaiin. The 
 firemem called at my office, and gave me, substantially, all the 
 infoCTnation upon whicih the airticle was written. I miade memo- 
 randa, at that time, of what they said, and told three of them, 
 Clifford, RothenUaJusler and Ryan, to write out what they had 
 told me. These letters came to me, I tMink, thrioughl the mail, 
 two or ttonee days subsequently, and are more or less complete — 
 
260 
 
 they are yery: much, less loomtplete; iMej are only a part of 'Wliat 
 they Hold me. 
 
 llir. Eaines. — TWese are tlie written statemientB fuTnishled to 
 you by theim? ; 
 
 Mr. Quigg,— Siibsequeintly; nioit at the tiime. 
 
 Mir. Biafluieis. — Within a day on tiwio after their talk with yom? 
 
 Mr. Quigg. — Yes, I think th^ree days later. 
 
 Mr. Eainesu — Kindly spa?ead thbse on th.e record, Mr. Stenog- 
 rajxher. 
 
 "March. 10, 1895. 
 
 "The foUowjlng conversatito was hal'd between Lieuteniant 
 James Smjilth, of Hoiok and Laididler No. 2, fiftieth streett land 
 Lexington avenue, from 5.30 to 6 p. ul, otni 9th inst.: 
 
 " I asked LieuteniaJnt Slmath if hie conld give me some infoirma- 
 tion in regard to what prevented own bill from being repoirted 
 out of th:e Senate ciities committee. He told me to try and 
 have oluir president to meet their president amid he woiuld tell 
 him whiat arrangementsi could be ma,de in reference to get 
 the bUl repoirted ont ol the conunittee which, could, could only 
 be donie by (money), and be wotuiM tell our president what it 
 would coist. He said that be whjs told by tbe people who had 
 their bill, that our bill would not be reported oUit of the com- 
 mittee until the last day of session without thle rnxmey, and the 
 people whloi hiad their bill was Mr. L. Payn, Senatioirs Robertson 
 and Eaines; and be said wby Mr. Piatt told uis on Sunday 24th 
 inst, of Februiary, 1895, that tbeir bill would be passed witb 
 the firemen's as one (1) bill. I saild tia him with!out money; be 
 said, why, yolu ought to knoiw; men isiucb as Mr. Plaitt will tell 
 you to semd your bill along and it will be paissed, but whJen you 
 want to get it ont of thle comjmittee why yoni bave to see the 
 go-between, wh'o arte not oiut for love or fbr tbeir health, and 
 if your people are wise you will come half way with us, and we 
 will get both' bills passed; as one (1), and that tihe only way to 
 do it is to see these peotple. 
 
 "T. J. Eiottaienhlausler, 
 
 rinianicial Secretary of F. M. B. Aissl" 
 
 " March] 10th, 1895. 
 "The following took place at Daly's Theater, where I was 
 detailed for duty on Thursday, MarcW 7tb, 1895. Assistant Fore- 
 man Quinn, of Engine Company 18, located in West Tenth 
 street, came there to see me and stated be was appointed a 
 committeie of one from the Association of Officers of tihe New 
 York Fire Department to see if something could not be done, 
 looking tow^ard getting our bill which isi pending in tbe Senate 
 
261 
 
 committee of cities^ faToiubly rqwjirted:. He stated money must 
 be put up or our bill would not come out erf said ciommittee. 
 He informed me that they were putting up $15,000 for tlieir 
 end of it, and we wene expected to make up a balance of |30,000, 
 making a total of $45,000. He informied me orur Mil would 
 never come oiut of the committee, witliotut our coming up with 
 this amxDiunt. He staitedl a gentLemiafli' namefli Loui Payn was 
 handling the same, togetheu with John J. Bums, captain of 
 Hook 'and Ladder Company 1, the president of their association. 
 I informed him I was powerless to act in thie matter, and re- 
 ferred him to our committee. 
 
 " JAMES J. CLIFFORD, 
 
 " Eresaldent of the F. M. B. A. 
 "Fireman First Grade Engine Company 32, located at East 
 Eighty-fi!fith street." 
 
 Edward H. Tobin, being rfeicailled, tesitifled as follows: 
 By Mr. Eaainies: 
 
 Q. You ane the witniessi who was required by Mr. B.oot to bring 
 certain books of acaoumt and bank-booikBi? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you hare beetu' in court since that time with those 
 books and bank-boiok®? A. Yes, sil*. 
 
 Q. Will yon produce thiemi? A. Yes, sir; I halve. 
 
 Q. And you have not been recalled to the sliand sdince that 
 time? A. l^o, sir., ' 
 
 Q. You stated fuiUy, at the tkne' yon were on the sitJamd, all your 
 knowledge with regard! to thie ooillectiotn of money from the 
 officers of the fire department of the 'city of New York duriing 
 this last winter? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. And, aside from this |1 a monithl tax, are any moneysi col- 
 lected from anybody lof the fire department of the city of New 
 York in those accounts? A. No, sir; only that. 
 
 Q. In tihiose bank-books? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. And you say thait you have nio knowledge of any money 
 'having bepn collected other than thIe |1 aasessmientlsi? A. lliat. 
 is all.i 
 
 Q. What was your officiial relatitan' to th^e officers' assoiciaition ? 
 A. Directioir of the niinth battalion. 
 
 Q. 'Collector? A. Well, if yoiu call it such; director. 
 
 Q. So that you were thie colleetoir' of this f 1 ai month' assesis- 
 ment? A. Yes, sir; I was the directoir of the baittaliion. 
 
 Q. Has there been 'amy other direictotr ito that battalion duaing 
 thie last six months? A- Thlat is all. 
 
262 
 
 Q. Do ycra know of amy moneys bieimg ooUecftled in tlhiat bat- 
 talion for iegislartive pairpoises? A. No^ sir. 
 Q. By any one but yooirself ? A. No, sir. 
 The . Cliainnan, — ^Any croisis-exaimlinatioin, Mr. Eooit? 
 Mr. Eoo(t — Not umliess the oommittee wishes it. 
 
 Patrick Gr. Horan, oalled' aei a witness, being duly sworn, testi- 
 fied as follows:! 
 
 Direct exajnuinaitix)n by Mr. Eaimes: 
 
 Q. What flre company are you conhecijed with? A. Engine 25. 
 
 Q. How long have you been oonmected with that company? 
 A. About four years. 
 
 Q. You have not any reLation to the of&cers^ association? A. 
 Yes, sir; I am a member of it. 
 
 Q. A member of it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Any official connection? A. No^ sir; none at all, whatsoever. 
 
 Q. You have been an assistant foreman how long? A, Going 
 on four years. ^ 
 
 Q. At any time, Mr. Horan, do you know of the icollection of 
 any money, aside from the |1 a month tax, spoken of by Officer 
 Burns, among the officers of the Aire department of the city of 
 Kew York? A. No^ sir. 
 
 Q. For legislative purposes? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. Has there been any, tax collected, to your knowledge? A- 
 No, sir; not that I know of. 
 
 Q. Have you ever paid any? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any officers paying any? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you pay any Siimi of |30 or $45, oir any oither sium, for 
 any such tax, or collect from anybody any such sum of money? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. That we have heard about here? A. No^ sir. 
 
 Q. Were you the collector of your baitrtaJion? A Noi, sir; I 
 was not. 
 
 Q. You were not? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Mention has been made of a memorandum book which you 
 last at one ttme? A. Yes> mr. 
 
 Q. You will have to speak up very distinctly? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have thart: book here? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Produce it aigain? A. Yes, sir. (Wittnesis prtadniees book.) 
 
 Q. Was there a time when you lost Sit? Al Yes, sir; I lost it; 
 and I oame downstairs after — I dOn't know — proibably half an 
 hour or soi; and I found'. Engiiiieer Davisi with the bWok in his 
 hand; and he asked me whio owned thei little book; so I tunoied 
 around, and I says, " I'll taike care of that, Joe," just like thalf; so 
 
263 
 
 I tooik tOife boiok OUT ot his hand; and I was preparing to go down 
 to 11 truck that day; I was detailed thtere; preparing to' goi down 
 to relieve the men; soi I took the book and I put on my coat and I 
 went out. 
 
 Q. Aboiuit when was it that you lost it? A. Well, now, I 
 oonldn't state; I ooiuldn't say exactly; aroiund abonitl the Sd or 
 4th or 5th. of March; couldn't sitate exactly. 
 
 Q. Mention has been made by witniesseBi of the condition of 
 this book? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When were these learesi tos* out of this book? A, The 
 leaves have been tooBie, I suppose, six or weight moniths; I tore 
 them* out, accoocding as they were of no use to me; I am a 
 widower; I have no wife, and I have got five children, andl I 
 have to geft my oldest girl toi keep house for me; she is almost 18 
 years old; and I make memorandmns in thab book, and when| 
 they are of no use, I tiear them out; I keep memorandums of 
 what she needs in the house, And when they aire of no use I tear 
 them oujt; I also keep still alarms of flresl and one thing and 
 another; numbers of buildings and such things as that; as they 
 become no use I tear them out 
 
 Q. And leaves have been toim out of this book? A. Tes, sir; 
 previous!, by me; previous to this thing at all. 
 ' Q. You know about how many? A. Well, now, I couldn't say 
 how many; I couldn't state; eig'ht oir 10 or 12 or 14. 
 
 Q. Now, then, mention has been made here of a book, a page, 
 one page of thisi book, which was nearly filled up with writing 
 and which had "E" and "F" and other capital letters on it; 
 do you recollect the page that was nearly filled up wMh writing? 
 A. No, sir; I don't recollect any page 
 
 Q. What was there on some of the pages that were torn out? 
 A. There was different memorandumBi, numbers of buildings, 
 hydrants, and such as that; I carry that book all the time. 
 
 Q. Any accOTintsi? A. No, sir; not that I know of. 
 
 Q. Family aooounts? A. Yes, sir; family accounts; grocery 
 bills and all that; rent bills, and one thing and another; I 
 would have them in my book, and when the leaf would be ifull, I 
 would tear it out. 
 
 Q. In what way were t!hey put in? A. Well, I don't kno^v I 
 am sure. 
 
 Q. I mean on th'e leaf; the name of thte gnocier? A. No, sir; 
 there was only the bill, what the bill wa®, or the name, and 
 such as that. ! 
 
 Q. And the items of expenisesi? A. Yes, sir; and the items of 
 expemses; and that I didn't consider was lof any use to ainybody. 
 
 Q. Was there any page in this book on which was, at any 
 time, written a list of the names of the officers of your bat- 
 
264 
 
 talion, with, the amount of |30 or $45 against thtem, amd the 
 letters "O. K." opposite them, except Mahon, whose niame had 
 "]Sr. Gr." against it? A. No, sir; not to my reeiollectioai'. 
 
 Q. Was there such a leaf in this book? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yon ever see snoh ai leaf in this book? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yon ever make such a list?' A- Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. Or hare one in your possesisioln? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversiation with regard to auich a; list 
 as that, oir entry, in that book? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. With, any person? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yon have a cOnvei?siation, withi amy of the men in your 
 fire-house with referenicie toi thait book containing the assess- 
 ments of the members of yorar battalion for the salary bill? A. 
 No, sir; never had any conversation. 
 
 Q. Did any of them suggest that to yoiu, or youi siay anything 
 on the subject? A. Noi, sir. 1 
 
 Q, You are acquainted — give us the name of israch as havq 
 been witnesseis hepe,'.of youir fire-house? A. Well, James Oampi- 
 bell, I believe. ' 
 
 Q. James Campbleil? A. Yes, wr; William Stephenson;. 
 
 Q. Now, what is there about youir being called " O. K. ? " A^ 
 I don't know, sir. j 
 
 Q. Have you been nicknamed! that at any time? A. Well, no; 
 I never heard of it. 
 
 Q. Never heard of it? A. No; never called to me to my face; 
 the only inference that I can fbcran from, it is taking the message 
 off the telephone; thgy say O. K. sometimes; I suppose I have 
 often said sot 
 
 Q. Well, has there been anything peculiar about your being 
 called "O. K." before or since the loss of this book, different 
 from other times? A. Well, I never heard it; I never heard 
 them call me "0. K." 
 
 Q. It is curious that you hiaven't; we spent half a day on it? 
 A. Well, I never heard it called to me. 
 
 Q. Did anybody ciome at any time; come to yon and ask you 
 with regard to tM!s book; if so^ when? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Eh? A. No, sir; the only thing I heard about thle book 
 was after some oifl those people had gone down to Mr. Quigg's 
 office; that wajs the first intimjaltion I had about the book. 
 
 Q. Who spoke to you then? A. It wasn't nobiody spoke tt 
 me in general about it; it was a rumor I heard aroundl the 
 house. 
 
 Q. Well, did you ever receive an. invitati'on to show this booU 
 to anybody? A. Yes, sir; I showed tte book; at least I offered 
 to show it 
 
265 
 
 Q. WhJeB and where? A. Tlie diay after t!hley found it; that 
 evening, I believe; I proffered to show it, toi «ee if there was 
 anything iin it. 
 
 Q. To whom? A. Well, I dom't know; thene was three or foiur 
 sitting art ai tatole. 
 
 Q. What was the oocasion of it? AL Well, beoanise I heard 
 that thej talked about the book. 
 
 Q. Yes? A. So I pretferired to show: it toi them. 
 
 Q. Did tihey look a,t it? A. JSTo, sir; they didn't look a* it 
 
 ti. Well, what werie they tailkilnig abonit in connection with the 
 biftok? A. They were siayinig that I wais the colleotoir for the 
 baittalioni. 
 
 Q. Well, whait followed when' yora oiffered ta show themi the 
 book? A. I threw itl lomi thfe talble there, amd' thJey didn't say 
 amjirhitoig and noibody picked it ujp, so I picked dit up and put it 
 back in my poickeit 
 
 Q. Who were thie men thepe? A. There was Fireman, Camp- 
 bell, and I think StIephlenisDin was there; I don/t iremiemjber righltly; 
 there was about four mieni sittSng at a table. 
 
 Q. Did any of them oaiiake the remark there that ilt wasi an 
 assessment book, and that your accounts as oollectoir were in it? 
 A. I didn't hear them. 
 
 Q. Before yon offered to show themi thie book, state exaotly 
 what had been said to leaid you to throw out thei boiok? A. I 
 heard them make remarks ithat I was colleictor for the battalion ; 
 that I had the book, and thajb thte collectionisi were in i!t. 
 
 Q. So you at once threw ouJt the book? A, Threw out the 
 book. I 
 
 Q. They didn't want to look ait it? A. Ufa, silri; they didn't 
 want to look at it. 
 
 Q. What was godmg on theire, serious talk? A. Jokihigi, I 
 sxippoise. 
 
 Q. What is the falct as to' joldng beilnig quite preralenit in your 
 flrehouBie? A. They aairry on a gireait deal of joking there. 
 
 Q. When you ttirew ont the book, did you treat it as ai joke? 
 A. Nobody seiemJeidl to take it up oir anything; I left it on the 
 table there a few minutes^ 
 
 Q. Anid that is all you Imow about it? A. That's all I khow 
 about it, 
 
 The Ohlaalrman. — ^Ahytihilnig, Mr. Eoot; to the witlniess? 
 
 Mr. Root. — Noft unless the committee wants it. 
 
 The CWairmian. — ^Wie halve niotthilng'; thla* is all. 
 
 r. 34 
 
26)6 
 
 Thioonas r. Freel, called' as a witness, 'beding duly swiom, testi- 
 fied as folloAvs: 
 
 Direct examiiiatiioinj by Mr. Eainiesi: 
 
 Q. How lomg haive yoiu bteem conjnected witthi tlie fline detpart- 
 ment of New York city? ' A. Fofurteemi years. 
 
 Q. And in wiiait poisitiooi aire yoia now? A- I ami oaptajim^ or 
 fOTiemam, of a company. 
 
 Q. Wihat oompiainy? A. Twenty enigilnie, at 47 Mariton street. 
 
 Q. Are yoru a memiber of tlie offioeir's^ aasiociartlbtti? A Yes, 
 sir; I lam ai member lanidl am offiicer. 
 
 Q. Wliat office do you iboid? A. I ami thie odepriesieinrtjaidjye of 
 tlile association. 
 
 Q. Wbat are tbe duties 'of tbat office? A. Thie dutites are to 
 represent tihte associatiioin in any way thiatt it migM be nieceasiary 
 to represient it a,t any time; tUe're is a seotioni tiu tbe ooinstittiu- 
 tiori or. by-laws wbicli defines ijh'e dutiles of the repiriesientlatiA"e, 
 and I believe you Have it there; if you will band it toi me, the 
 oonistitution and by-laws of the offioers' assioiciaitiiom, I will r«aid 
 from the book and define thie duties and powers of repreaenita- 
 tive. "The representative slhall aittemd such special duties as 
 be may be called uponi to perfonn fromj time to taknie, by thJe 
 president or board of officers and mieimbieris of the aissoci'atioin, 
 and shall act as the asisociation's representative in all miatters 
 in wM'db. nio special oonunittee is appodnted for the puirpose. 
 
 Q. How long have you beld that positdon, officer? A. Ever 
 since the inoex)tiom of the officers' assacdatibin. 
 
 Q. Wben was tbat? A. That wa® aibout June of 1894. 
 
 Q. During that tilrae, bave you beld any other poisitiom? A. I 
 have been chairman of the legislative commibtee. 
 
 Q. During that time? A. During tbat time; and in connection 
 with that, if you will allow me, I want to volunteer a statement 
 that I have been chairman of the committee on legislation for 
 the New York Council No. 3, Order of the American Firemjen, 
 this year and last year; that is 1894 and 1895. 
 
 Q. Well, in connection with your dtities as representative and 
 member of the legislative committee, have you been to Albany 
 a number of times? A. I have. 
 
 Q. Wben did you commence going thene? A. Last winter at 
 about the early part of March. 
 
 Q. Tbis year? A. I mean last yeair. 
 
 Q. This winter? A. About tlie 5th, I think, or the 6th «of 
 Maircb, I went to Albany to appeair before tihe Assembly commit- 
 tee on cities, in. connection with the hearing on the 2 per cent. 
 
267 
 
 taK matter J that is, the extension of ttme by which the Exempt 
 Association of Firemen of the City of New Yioo'fc could enjoy the 
 collection of moneys aoerutng from the 2 per cent tax. 
 
 Q. And did yooi go up, at rariious times, in oonneiction with that 
 same bill ? A. I did. 
 
 Q. At any time while yon were there did yon look after this 
 officers' amendment in the salary bill, or have talkis with any- 
 body about it? A. I never ispoke to anybody who was ta a posi- 
 tion to help us on the officers' salary bill in my life; I never soli- 
 cited anybody's influence for that bill, in my life. 
 
 Q. So you had no conversation with Mr. Payn, or with any of 
 the Senators on that subject? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You, therefore, attended no hearings and went there to do 
 nothing about it? A. I attended the heairingsi in connection 
 with the 2 per cent, tax matter, but I never attended, nor did 
 I see anybody in connection with the offioersi' salaicy matter. 
 
 Q. Oome doiwn more nearly to this ma,tter; you heard the tes;- 
 tiinony of Officer Byrnes, did you not^ with reference to the 
 organization of the officers' association, and the commencement 
 of the levy of the |1 a month tax, for committee expenses, in 
 August last? A. I came into the room while Captain Byrnes 
 was under croes-examination, so that I did not hear his direct 
 testimony. 
 
 Q. Well, what is the fact ais to whether a tax of $1 a month 
 was levied commencing about August last, in that officers' assoi- 
 dation? A. The officers' association, toi my memory, was inaug- 
 urated about the first part of June or July, 1894; it was organ- 
 ized for the purpoise of creating a fujid from which moneys could 
 be taken, from tune to time, ixy defray the expenses of a conmiil? 
 tee to go to and from Albany, in connection with the interests 
 of the officers and naembers of the fire department, in connection 
 with the 2 per cent, tax matter; that is the 2 per cent tax on 
 foreign fire insurance companies; do you want me to volunteer? 
 
 Q. Go right, ahead and tell \m the history of that officers^ 
 organization ? A. The organization wasi the result of a meeting 
 of about a dozen officers, which took place at the quarters ^ 
 Hook and Ladder No. 20, about June last; we had no orgamisation 
 up to last year; that is the winter of 1894; we were confronted 
 by a bill, which was introduced in both houses of the Legisla-: 
 tare, in the interest of the Exempt Eiremen's Benevolent Associa-' 
 tion of the City of New York, having for its object the extension 
 of time by which the exempt firemen's association trustees couldl 
 oolleot and disburse the moneys acoruinig from, the 2 per cent tax 
 levied on foreign &re insm,Tan.ce companies for the privilege of 
 doing business in the ciity and ooanty of New York, for 10 years^ 
 
268 
 
 fromi Jianiuiairy-^tlol JainraiaiPy 17, 1897— noi; frtom. Janiuiairy 17,1897; 
 the bill uinidier wMdh' iihej weine oiperaiitiiiig lamidl dollleotiiig thiesie 
 moneys, it! appeargi, will expiire (m the 17th of Jajiuamy; that boldy 
 has been enjoying those momeys from 1866, by limited extemsioin. 
 Senator Cantor. — I don't ttdnk we aare aibomt the hisitory. 
 
 By Mr. Eaines: 
 
 Q. Well, this officers' arganizaltion was for the puirpoisie of 
 defeating the further extension of that prlviilege? A. Yes^ sir; 
 laist year wie founid that it was necessary to send committeesi np 
 there, and that we had im funds from' which the expenses of the 
 committee cotuld be taiken ; and aisi the expenses ha'd toi be boime 
 by the members of the committee personally, the members 'w^o 
 sierved on the committee were out quite a lot of money; it was 
 them considered wise to perf edt an organizatiion to acquire a fund 
 from which tihe expenses of the oommitteieisi coiuld be tafeen, and, 
 for that purpose, the associaJtion of officers of the fire department 
 of the city of New York waia created. 
 
 Q. In that contest of a year ago, over the 2 per cent tax bill, 
 did yon aivail youirselres of the services! of Mr. Payn? A'. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At wh.bise siuggestiom? A. Well, I coraMn't say at whose 
 suggestion now ; I wias given to umderstand that Captain Byrnes 
 was very intimately acquainted with Mr. Payn, and I saw OapK 
 tain Byrnes, andl he toild me that he wasi interested); and after 
 some consultaition between myself and different other members 
 of the organization, Mr. Byrnes was prevailed upon toi see Mr. 
 Payn, and 'see if he could be interest^ in the 2 per cant, tax 
 matter. 
 
 Q. And was that after the oonenltation with Mr. Bonner? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. We have had all that from Oaiptain Byrnes? A. As a con- 
 sequence of that, Mr. Byrnes did go to see Mr. Payn, and I went 
 with him, to explain the object and pturposesi for whicih we were 
 fighting; and I saw Mr. Payn, at his honise, at Ghatiham, and 
 was introduced to ihiim by Mr. Bymesi; I went into a detailed 
 explanation of onr stand in the matter. 
 
 Q. That is liow you' got Mr. Payn intoi the fire department 
 matters of New Yorik? A. Mr. Payn then promised that he 
 wonld do all he coiuld possibly for us. 
 
 Q. Now, after the 'Officers' organization was formed, when did 
 the |1 a month tax commenoe to be collected? A. At abont 
 June. 
 
 Q..Now, then, to what useis has that fund been applied? At 
 Well, it has been usied for the purpoise of paying the expense® of 
 
269 
 
 ithe delegates to Albany, and, I believe, for funeral ornamentls, 
 flo-nem, coaches, and sometliing of thajt kind. 
 
 Q. Inciiidemtail expenses? A. Yes, sir; incidental expenses. 
 
 Q. Aside from those usesi, has any of it been used for illegiti- 
 mate prarposies? A. No^ siilr. 
 
 Q. Has any other money been aoileoted or, raised among the 
 ofQcietrSi or in the officers' association? A Not a dollar, that I 
 know of; amd I don't want you tbi tinderstamd when I say, " That 
 I know if," thajt I aim. qualitfyilig that statement; of my ownl 
 knowledge, not f 1 has been raised, and I mean also, that not aj 
 dollar could be raised unless I would have a knoiwledge of it. 
 
 Q. Has there been any such thilng asi a collection of |30, o!r 
 any other sum, among those offioem, dwrdng thiel pa;st nine' 
 imonths? A. IS^o, sir. 
 
 Q. Foir amy purpose? A For no purpose. 
 
 Q. Well, now, why woiuld you have knowledge of it, Mr. Freel ? 
 A. Well, I am a member of the alsisooiiation of officers; I have 
 attended all meetings with the exception of one ; I am cognizant 
 of everything that comes before the association of officers; I am 
 an officeir in the flre department, and I am as much interested) 
 in any bill that would have folr its object the increase of the 
 officers' salary as any other officer wonld be; consequently if 
 there was any attempt miaJde to 'raise money by a pro. ratio tax 
 I must necessarily be taxed with the rest; and, from the fact 
 that I was not approached for to pay an assessment, I argue 
 that no assessment was ever paid. 
 
 Q. Is it a fact that there never wasi any assessment ordered 
 to be oolleoted in any meeting of the offlcensi' association? A. 
 1^0 meeting at which I was present. 
 
 Q. Yoiui were p>resent at all but one? A. I was present at the 
 March meeting, that so much talk was about 
 
 Q. Burti thene was one meeting at which you were not present? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Wh'en was thiat? A. I think that was the Feibruairy meeting. 
 
 Q. You were present at thart Manoh 4th^ meetiiig? A Yes, sir; 
 I wals. 
 
 Q. Was there any mentilon made, by Shaw or anyone else, at 
 that March nueeting, of the raising of moniey, or the use of moneys 
 in connection with this salary bill? A. There was not; and 
 there never has been. 
 
 Q. There never has been at any meeting? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. At which yon halve been prelslent? A No, sir. 
 
 Q. You had a conversation with Mr. Quigg at one time? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
270 
 
 Q. Wlhiein was it? A. It was on tlie Swiday prior to tiie pub- 
 lication of The Press article; I went tliene in connectioin with 
 the 2 peir cemt. tax matter, at the suggestion of am ofSicer named 
 Graliiam, by advice of thie chief of the fire deportment, Huigb. 
 Bonner. 
 
 Q. Now, I want you to go aliead and detail all thait was said 
 and tell all that was done there, both by Mr. Grraihiam, by Mr. 
 Flreel, and by Mr. Quigg, from beginning to end^; ail that you 
 told bimi and all that he told either of yoiu? Al Mr. G-raham 
 told mje tbat we could secure the influence oifi Mr. Quigg, and 
 he said that he had made am arrangement by whioh he was 
 to meet Mr. Quigg to explain our stand in the 2 per cent, tax 
 matter; at 5 o'clock on Sunday evening, about the 13th or 14th 
 of April, at 5 o'clock on thait Suiniday afterniaon, I waS' iln Tlie 
 Press ofBce, waiting for Mr. Quigg; after a lapse of some time 
 Mr. Quigg came in; Mr. Graham ihtroduoed me to Mr. Quigg, 
 and we had a talk abolut thie 2 per cent tax matter;- it wais a 
 general talk; Mr. Quigg assured me th'at he would do all that 
 he possibly could for to help us in that connection; and then 
 he spoke of the officers' salary bill, and he said that he was 
 decidedly opposed to the amendment which had been tacked on 
 to the firemen's salary bill by the officers; he didn't think it 
 was a proper thing to do, and he thought tliat had a tendency 
 to defeat that bill, at that time, and that he was very angry 
 with thie otflSiceris for having anythfmig 'of that kind dome; 
 he stated further, thiat hfe undteristood thiat a large ooirrupltion 
 fund, or a corruption fund, or a fund of money, which 
 was to.be used for corrupt purposes in connection with that 
 officers' amendment, had been raised; and I think, just at that 
 time, I assured Mr. Quigg that I knew nothing at aH 
 about the existence of any alleged corruption fund; Mr. 
 Quigg then made a statement tol me to the effect that he had 
 knowledge of the existence of a corruptilon fund; that he 
 knew that am assessment had been levied, and that moneys 
 had been collected', and thait he 'ksomw there was ai oammittee 
 acting in conmectSion with thie officers' salary bill, for the pur- 
 pose of collecting raomeys for ooirnipit purppses; amd hie said that 
 he proposed to expose ilt, and thait hie would exposie it; and I 
 told Mm — I dom't know tlhatt I used tihe words^ biuit I told hijmi 
 in siubsitance, that he suirpriged me very much when he state'^ 
 tliat he knew of the existenice of a corrupttioini funid, and of the 
 ciollectibn! of momeys ffior corrupt purposes; thiat he was ini a 
 better positibn than I was in tlhiait pairiticular, for he knieiw, and 
 I didn't kinow, audi I wais onie of thie persons thait wais inter- 
 fisted; hie siaid thait h!e ooiuld fnrniishi namieis amd aimiounttjs and all 
 that, and he said " "Whiajti would yoia say if I were toi confront 
 
271 
 
 yOiU wMi nlaimjes ainiS iaimtoiuuntla amid all tihiat sort of thing? " I 
 said thali I would be very mudi siurprised; I told him thiait it 
 was a matter that I was in no wise inteirested in; that it was a 
 matter that I was opposedl to from the time I first h^eaird 
 of it; that I was not imformied, noir was I lever informfedi of the 
 increase of the salairies of the fire departtment; that I had good 
 reasoms tov being oppoised to it, and that I was opposed to- it; 
 that I was not in favoi' of interfering with the fireman's salary 
 bill in any way, and that nobody deploreid the interfereniae more 
 tham I did; that I haid spotoen agaimst it, and I did not stand, for 
 it elthler one way or the otlier; Mr. Quigg then stated to me 
 thlat I was in a splendid poigiitiloni to help Mm. to make am! expioise 
 by Tirtlne of my beitnig antagonistic to the salary bill; I told 
 li i m th'at, by virtue of my beSnig antiagionistilo, I womld be in; a 
 good position to help bjlm; but, by neaision' of my not having 
 knowledge in connectiow with the fmid tbat hei alleged was in 
 existence, I would niot be in a poisitioni to help him at all; Mr. 
 Qnigg asked me then, from aj sense of rigiht, if I thought that it 
 was proper Ho allow anything of that kind toi go on in the fire 
 departmtent; and I told him I did not; he asked mie if he could 
 cionvinice me, if hJe could give me proof of the existence of hi 
 florruption fund, of the ooilectitoni of mioneys for corrupt purpoises 
 in coniniection with; this ofScers' sialary bill, would I be willing 
 to Ihelpl him; I told hikn that I didn't thl'nk htei could give me 
 any pfoolf of that kind; he said: "Well, would ymi' be willing tt> 
 help me if I could fnmisb the proof? " I think my reply to Eam, 
 at that ti'me, was that I didn't believe that there was ever any 
 proof of that kind in! lexistence; tlhat it would bei an awfully 
 emibarrassiag piol^itioni to pil'ace mie iti; that I would have to 
 dotosid'er my comradfeis, thie meni withi whom) I hlad served, side 
 by side, for a number of yeiarsi; that wMle I would deplore any- 
 thing of thait kind as miuich' <as anybiody, at tlhe same timie I 
 would not like to be forced Unto the position of hiaving to take 
 the initiary in a miaifiBer of that kind; Mr. Quigg then said to 
 me: "1 alia goin'g to expoiaie thils matter; it doesn't make any dilf- 
 fereiD'ce if it blasts my entire' career; I will expoise it, if I am 
 'driven from ptablic life ais a pemalltly of the stand that I ami golitig 
 to take; I will expoise this maitter and puiblisihi it;" I told hiin 
 that I would be very sorry to Wave alny sioandal of that kind 
 fall on tWe fire depiarttnietnt; that it wiais coiniceded toi be one of iMe 
 finest public diepartments ini thie 'cai% of New York; that there 
 wais no taint of isujspicion ever wafted against it biefore this, 
 and I tMnk I said to hikn, ini th'ose words, that moral ceirtaihtt^, 
 even, was not legtal' evidewce; I don't kin'ow that I mia'de that 
 statemienii to hitai, in those wordsl, btit I stated siotate- 
 thing ta that effeicit, latod I argued aigainist the puiblicaition' of 
 
I 272 
 
 aai'y artilole 'hariiig tbase dliargeis ais la baisfe; Mr, Quigg amd I 
 ceasied talkilng aibou* it, fiiiailly, amd Mr. Quigg ga,ve mie iMs 
 aissTiranlce th'at he wioiuild db all tie poissi'bly oouild to aid fhie fire 
 depafftment in oonnectiom withl thie 2 per cent, tax fight; thieiria 
 is one 'Oither sitaltemenit — oh — Mr. Quigg said to me, " Mr. Preel," 
 he sai'd, " I conisilder it an oiuitrage that persous like yotu, who have 
 just claims cominig upl 'before the Lieigislatiure of this State are 
 forced one side in the interests of ether people, whose claims aire 
 imjust, simply because money is uisod for or againsit; " be said, 
 " There has been a class of people up in the State Legislature 
 who have been literally holding up every just matter, and whose 
 first query, when a measure is brouigiht before them is, 'What is 
 there in it? ' " and he siaid, "AJs iaj ^od Eiepuibilicain, I am going to 
 expose that thing, if it drives me out of the ranks of the party; " 
 he siadd, " The Kelpuiblioaii' party is toa gramd a party to stand 
 anything of that kind, and I am going to expose it;" that, I 
 IMnili:, was the enltire siuibsitanioe of the interview that I had with 
 Mr. Quigg. 
 
 Q. Was there amythtng said in the course of that interview 
 by Air. Quigg as to how he wajnted you to help him? A. Other 
 than that, by neason otf my being opposed — 
 
 Q. What means? A. N'oi, edn 
 
 Q. Did you tell hikn yow were a member of the Legislative oom,- 
 mittee? A. I don't laiow that I told him thait I was;. I think 
 that was told him by Mr. Uraham, that it was a part of the intro- 
 duction. 
 
 Q. Did you tell him that you were the representative of the 
 officers' aissocdatiom? A I may have, or it may havie been men- 
 tioned by Mr. G-raham^ or it may have been undeiisltood by Mr. 
 Quigg. 
 
 Q. Did yotu tell Mm that you had been at Albany? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In connection with legislation? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And did you; tell him that you had never heard of the 
 raising of any fund for the purpose of passing this salary bill'? 
 A. Yes, sir; 1 told him — I recollect distinctly the statement tha* 
 I mjadte to him; I said, "Mr. Quigg, T have not been approached, 
 direicitly or ilndirecitly, for to put up any miomey, nor have I pult 
 up any money, directly or indirectly; nor do I kniow any penson 
 who has been approached, or who' has approadhed others, or who 
 has, indirectly or directly, collected or put up any money in 
 connection with this pending legislation; and I am satisfied tha|t, 
 if such a thing was the ciaise, that I would hiaive some knowledge 
 of it;" I think, Mr. Quigg said, ait that time — I want to be pen- 
 feotly fair; I want to give the interview in its entirety; I thinlil 
 Mr. Quigg ^aid, at thaft time, that perhaps, by reason of myi 
 known amtiagonlsmi to the ofBcers' flialiajry, bill, tlhat perihapisi I 
 
273 
 
 woula De — or maybe I suggested tiiat myserf ; I iMnM iMast that 
 tMng did enter iirtlo the disicTissiodi, but if it did, I miaxie the s.ta,te!- 
 ment that I didn't tihink that would be the case. 
 
 Q. Did Gwaham make; amy statement to Mr. Quigg with refers 
 enoe to hiis knowledge on the subjjeqt of the raising of the fund?! 
 A. Not in my presence. 
 
 Q. As to wbeihier he knew of one? A. No, sir; the conversai- 
 tion was carried on mainly by Mr. Quigg and myself. 
 
 Tlhe Ohaiirm'an. — ^Any fuirthei" questiora; any Cirioss^exam.inati)on. 
 
 Mr. Howard. — Not unless thte comlmittee desires it 
 
 The 01iaimi.an. — If yotu desire it, any fuiPther questibn. Thiat 
 is all. 
 
 JJichael E. 0. G-raham, called as a witness, being duly sworn, 
 testified as follows: 
 
 Direct exajmination by Mr. Elaines: 
 
 Q. WTiat position do you occupy in the depairtment? A. Assist- 
 ant foreman. 
 
 Q. What comipany? A. Engine 5. 
 
 Q. How long hare yon been in the department? A. Over 13 
 years. 
 
 Q. Do yon hold any office in connection with the ofQcers' 
 organization? A. Not at all, sir. 
 
 Q. Except as a member? A. As a member; that is all. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with Mr. Quigg? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When' did you make his acquaintance? A. Some time in 
 September, I belfeve, tni 1894., 
 
 Q. State the conversation that yon had with Mm at that time? 
 A. Well, it was a lengthy conversation. 
 
 Q. Well, go on anid state it? A. Mr. Quigg, I believe, had 
 sent the president odB the letter carrSiers' association — at that 
 time I was a fireman; I was president of this firemen's associa- 
 tion; the firemen's benevolent assioiciation ; Mr. Par'sons was 
 president of the letter carriers' associaition, and he desired me 
 to meet Mr. Quigg, on a Sunday morning at his residence, 210 
 West Seventieth street, I believe, and I went there; the subject 
 was brought up in' reference io Mr. Quigg obtaining the nomi- 
 nation for mayor of the. city of New York; he stated that he 
 had — 
 
 ITie Chairman, pro tem. — Has that anything to do with this 
 investigation? 
 
 Mr. Raines. — Yes; it will lead up to something. 
 
 The Witness. — He had several interviews with mtembers of 
 his party in the matter, and he thought if he could get the 
 r. 35 
 
274 
 
 three representative bodies in tMs city to interest themselves 
 with other members of his party, that he could obtain the 
 nomination. 
 
 Q. The three olrganizations were what? A. The policemen, 
 firemen and letter cairrie!rs; well, we didn't give Mr. Qnigg any 
 decided answer at that time; merely said that we had to con- 
 sult the members of our assioiciatioiii about it, and we would let 
 him know some oth'er time; iln the meantime we held the meet- 
 ing of representarfSves otf the different bodies, and we concluded 
 that it would not be a wise thing to dot 
 
 Mr. Howard. — If the committee please, I would like to ask 
 the object of this. What fotundation would it lay? 
 
 Mr. Eaine®. — Mr. Quigg's cross-ex'amination related to things 
 at this time. 
 
 By Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. Gro on and state the comversation? A. You merely want 
 me to state the conversation that took place? 
 
 Q. Yesi? A. That was all the conversation at that time. 
 
 Q. Now, after thait, was the subject of the firemen's bill 
 brought up? A. The smbject of the firemen's bill was brought up. 
 
 Q. About when; fl{Cst? A. In the early part of October. 
 
 Q. Now, tell us the conversatiioni at that tliime? A. Well, Mr. 
 Quigg, I believe, at that time, was -aspiring for the nomination 
 for Congress, amid he desired to know fiPom me what way that 
 he conild obtaini the support of the menubers of the department 
 in Ms canvass; I merely stated that he would have to do some- 
 thing for them ; that was all ; he stated that he — he mentioned 
 the fact of their salaries being increased. 
 
 Q. Who did; you or he? A. He mentiomiedi the fact; he could 
 obtain — 
 
 Q. What did he say? A. He siaid thast he could obtain for me 
 a pledge thait thie salaries woiuld be increased, providing the 
 members of the department wouldl support him in his canvasBi 
 
 Q. Did he tell ywu how he was going to give the pledge? A. 
 He told me, from ai member of hi& partr\'. 
 
 •Q. Who ? A. From a memibteir of his party. 
 
 Q. Political pairtj^? A. Politilcial party. 
 
 Q. What did he siay hie wouM himlseif do ito tihie matter? A. 
 He would brin'g me diawni tk> thiis nuembter. 
 
 Q. What did lie isay in regard to his lookiug after the matter in 
 the future; obtaining the llegisla-tiion, securinig it? A. He di!dni't 
 Slay amytihilng thlat I reoolleot, only that he would see thiait the bill 
 would become a laiw; thlait thle firemeni dieiserved an increase in' 
 their saliajry. 
 
275 
 
 Q. Mir. Quigg isaid, on tLtei witniessHSitlalnid, tWat hie iDCTiei' gave any 
 asstiraiiice trf any IdtaidJ om ituat subjeeit to' yoiu? A. Mr. Quiigg 
 certaiQly gave mie asisiuranoe'. 
 
 Q. In what way did hie poit ilt; juisit tell \m> Whialtl ihie aaldi? 
 
 Mr. Howard. — Tlue exact laimguia^. 
 
 By Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. Yes; tell us, as oloistely ais yoni can, ttie languaige? A. ISTo' 
 more thlan hie isiaid HbJait, lin tihie event of hiiim; toteing electeidi, he 
 would use his utmioisit 'endieavoinsi tla oibttaiini tihie iMorease in salaa-y ; 
 that tiUey deserved it; and thlat wais the substance of tiie cton- 
 versa/tion. 
 
 Q. And how niany tikoes and hiow oftieai; did he make that 
 pledge, and with hlow miudh unictioni di'd he mjaike that pledge? 
 A. Once he gave me the ptedjge. 
 
 Q. Anid you folks went tlo work for hlim? A. Yies, isir; I should 
 judge we did. 
 
 ■Q. Subsequently, the subjeictti of the firemen's bill oamie up 
 betv^'een you and Mr. Quigg, after electiioin? A. Yeis^ sir. 
 
 Q. And you called upon hjim foir thb perfoirmianice — ini w8mt 
 way did it come upt? A. The oonver'satlion; sinoe pleiottoto? 
 
 Q. Ye'& A. By the way, I went tio see Mr. Quigg shortly aftiei* 
 
 1 was pipomoiteidl; I had been ptromoted, ihi the meantilmie; severed' 
 all ooninecti'on's with the' flremen/s aissoeiaitiom. 
 
 Q. Whlen, after thlat, dad yott have a talk with Mr. Quiigg, on 
 the subject of fiireimten's ealarileis? A. It was the first week in 
 January, some time; it wasn-'t ib refel'iemcie tol salary, at that time'. 
 
 Q. Whfeit wais it in referenice toi? A. It wais' iiu ref eiPenicie tbi the 
 
 2 per cent, mattier; I desilred to obtlaini assisltaniee from Mm on 
 the 2 per cent, maittler. 
 
 Q. After tbait, you hkid a further conversaltioto withi him? A 
 Several timesi; yes. 
 
 Q. Well, ciomle down toi the titme whlem you anid Mr. Quiigg haidl a 
 conversaitiiow on thie subject of thei salairy bill, or the officers' 
 amendknent; when did tharti subject intepest Mr. Qtdlgg after tWat? 
 A:. It wais shjortly after the amiendiuienjtl was aittaohed tid the bill. 
 
 Q- "ViTiere dfd you meeii him;? A. Atl Mr. Quigg's office. 
 
 Q. How oame yoM thteine? A. I went to see hSm, in the inttlelrest 
 of thie 2 per cent!, mattiter. 
 
 Q. Now, Von may sfelfce just hbw tihe salary matter, and' the 
 amenidiment, oame upi ill tibe conviersatHon, and all th!at wais saild? 
 A. Well, hie stalteid thait, " Tilile pleidige thlat I gave yo^ when you 
 were thie p'resiildent of the organi'aaltioin^ I carry out, just the same 
 a^ if .you were the preisi'dent to^-dlafv; " hie saiild tblaiti it wais trnjust 
 for Khte offiicere to loiolr f» have ani amenidknent attached to the fire- 
 
276 
 
 men's bill, etc., ot wioirds to thiat effeclt; not tboise 'Ccsact woirdis, I 
 believie; and hie said Hie felt very some; very sore on tiie officei?a of 
 the fire departmjent ; tihiat, if that bill wiemit tdack to thie Assembly, 
 it woiuld have certainly been Idlled; I dkmi't reaolleiat any fuintlhier 
 eoinvepsatibin on thle salairy bill; I tlhainfced him very muiclh for it. 
 
 Q. At that time — was that previous to the passaige of tlie 
 salary bill? A. Yes, sir; that was previous to the passage of 
 the salary bill. 
 
 Q. Whien next waisi there a converisatioSn between yoiui and 
 Mr. Qnigg, on' the subject of the amendment, in relation to 
 salary? A. The next oomveirsatiom that I had with Mr. Quigg was 
 in compamy with Mr. Freel, Foireman Freel. 
 
 Q. Mr. Freel? A. Mr. Freel. 
 
 Q. That was the Sunday befolrte the publicaitiiioin of this article? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yoiu have some oonversiatioiDj with Mr. Quigg at that 
 time, oln which he asked yoiur aid in some way? A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Detail that conversation, please, exaJctly aisi it oconrred? 
 A. He asked me to stand by him in this matter, in this fight 
 that he was doing, I believe; he said that he wotuld' be a good 
 friend of mine if I did; he said to me, "Yon tell me what bank 
 that money is deposited in; " I said I walsn't aware of any money 
 being put up; that I would find out for him, and, if there was 
 such a thing I would let him know; that I never heard of it. 
 
 Q. You told hiim you had never heard of it? A Yes, siiir; I 
 told him, "I dion't know anytliing about it; I never put up a 
 dollar." 
 
 Q. He says that you told him that |7,000 hiaid been put up ; did 
 you tell hitai so? A. If Mr. Quigg siays that T told hliiml that, Mr. 
 Quigg says what is not true. 
 
 Q. Did you tell liim that $7,000 was put up, or any other 
 sum? A. No, silr. 
 
 Q. Or that you had hteard so? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn't tell hiin anything of th© kind? A. No, sirw 
 
 Q. Now, at that time, whait suggestions, if any, did Mr. Quigg 
 make with regard to any adhrantage thiat might accrue to you? 
 A. Well, he said that he would be a frilend of mine, and a better 
 friend than I could imagine. 
 
 Q. Didn^ft hie tell you., in dietail, w<hat was going to occur? A. 
 Oh, he told me of the expose, lie was going to make am exposi- 
 tion of the afifaiir; I advised! him not to; I stated that I thought 
 it would injure Mm politically, and I th'ouight he was very fooUsh 
 in doing it; he said, "Well, I atoi going to do it, if it is my 
 political downfaJl." 
 
277 
 
 Q. Whigrt did he say as to why lite was goSing toi do_ it? A. 
 Well, he stated that there ils so much cornutption — just as Mr. 
 Freel has stated it to you; that, in justice to the Bepublican 
 party, thait^ it should be put a stop to, right mow and then, 
 
 Q. Did he say anything about Mr. Payn? A. 1 beliere that 
 gentleman's name was mentioned in some manner, 
 
 Q. WhaH did he say; were they going to attack Payn? A, I 
 can't recall the exact conversation, but I ireoollect distinctly 
 that Mr. Payn's name was mentioned. 
 
 Q. Gam yotui tell the subntance of what was said about Payn 
 in that connection? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there a time whten' yoiu had ai conversation with him in 
 which he told you about three poiSitions beoomiaig vacant in 
 the department? A. I believe there was. 
 
 Q. Was that this ckDUversatiom ? A. That was the conversa- 
 tion I had! with him'; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Tell us the converaiaMon ? A Tes^ sir. 
 
 Q. Tell us, in detail, what he said? A. He said, "There is 
 going to be some vacancies in the department." 
 
 Q. Did he name whoi? A. Yes^ sir; he named Bums and Good- 
 erson and Smith, 
 
 Q. Did he say how or when they were goSimg? A. No^ sir. 
 
 Q. Yes; he said there would be three vacancies^? A. Yes, sir; 
 and he mentioned those three names. 
 
 Q. Gro on and state what he said in that connection? A. He 
 said no mosce about it; he drifted off talking to Mr. Freel,then, 
 in that matter. 
 
 Q. Was that in the connection where he said he could be a 
 good friend to you? A. That was at another time; he said he 
 could be a good friend to me at anotther meeting I had with him. 
 
 Q. At another meeting? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How did it come up that there were going to be thiree, 
 viacamcies? A, That was the very first remark, I believe; after; 
 I introduced Foreman Freel to him, he said, " I feel very, very 
 sore on the officers' organization, for the manner in which they 
 have treated me; " and after an explanation by Mr. Fteel, in 
 detaiU, he says, " There will be some vacancies i!n thte flre depart- 
 ment; " he mentioned — the first name he mentioned was Fore- 
 man Buamsi; the second name hie was kind of puzzled about, 
 Groodeson, but he says^ " You know hlim; Oommissioner Van Oott's 
 nephew. 
 
 Q. He mentioned him as Oommissionetr Van Ootfs nephew? A. 
 Yes, sir; and Smith; that was the language. ■ 
 
 Q. Did he suggest, in thatt conieotion, your promotion to one 
 of the three places? A. No, sir. 
 
278 
 
 Q. In tihat conmectiotQ? A. No, sir; not iln that coinnectioii; only 
 in afljiotlier comneotitoiQ. 
 
 Q. Did he say wliy thsose vacanciesi would oaauiri? A, No, siip. 
 
 Q. Did yoai have a oomversation with, him, after that? Av 
 That was the laisit coaivwsajtion' I 'had. 
 
 Q. Thart; was the last oomvensatioin yooi had? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it a faot, officer, that you never heard or knew of the 
 raising of any moneys for legislative purposes, in comnectioin wilii 
 this salary bill? A. That is the fact, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you coutritaute, iu any way, to stuioh a fund? A. No, 
 sir; never. 
 
 Q. Were yoiu asked toi? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you know of any other money, exeepft the $1 a month 
 tax, being collected among the officertsi? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Whoi is the collector of the |1 a month tax, in youir bat- 
 talion? A. I never interested myself very much in the offtoers'' 
 organization, paid very little attemtiom to anytihing tOiey were 
 doing, being such a young officer; I am only an officer since the 
 1st of January, this yeain; but I believe that Assistant Foremaii 
 O'Heam, of 14 Engine, that dollar a mion.th has been paid to hiTn^ 
 
 Mr. Howard. — ■ If thte committee please, this witness has made 
 some statements, under the examinati'on) .of Mr. Haines^ which Mti. 
 Quigg feels as if he ought to have the right, as a citizen, to 
 cross-examine him about. 
 
 The Chairman pro tern. — ^Anything you desire. 
 
 Mr. Howard. — But he would prefer to. reserve that examima- 
 tion until the stenographer can write out the testimony wMdh 
 he has given. 
 
 The Ohairman pro tem. — You can arrange with the stenogra,- 
 plier for a copy of the minutes, and the witness may then be 
 recalled for cross-extianinatiom. 
 
 By Mr. Eaines: 
 
 Q. In any of these conA'ersations tJia:t you had with Mr. Quigg, 
 were the names of any of the Senators mentioned? A. I believe 
 there was ; in what capacity, I couldn't say. 
 
 Q. In the course of the oonversaltion? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Which conversaititon? A. I believe Senatoir Robertson's 
 name was mentioned, and Senator Eiaimes and Senaitoli* 
 Coggeshall. 
 
 Q. When did he mientitom those namies? A. He mentioned' 
 those names to me at a meeting — a,t the conversa,tion I had 
 with him before tlfte last. 
 
 Q. That was on the Sunday previous to the publication, oa* 
 before that? A. Before that. 
 
279 
 
 Q. How lotog befoire? A. I ahbmld judge aibout two weeks ot so. 
 
 Q. What (lid ie say about tlieiri? A. Well — 
 
 Q. Use Ms exact language; give us bis; exact wioirds? A. Well, 
 I can't recall the exact conTersation. 
 
 Q. Now, think a moment; think a moment? A. I paid very 
 little attention to it; I doldn't think it would — 
 
 Q. They were epithet^ weren't they? A. I believe they was, 
 to some extent. 
 
 Q. How? A. I believe they was, toi som^e extent. 
 
 Q. You could recall them if I mentioned them; some of these 
 tennis that he applied to themi? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he call them what is sometimies shortened to " S. O. B ? " 
 A. Whiat you might — 
 
 Q. Sons of bSjtches? A. YeB, sir. 
 
 Q. Diid he pipefaoe that by the word "louisy?" A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long did he continue in that; strain of remarks? A. 
 He mentioned it once. 
 
 Q. He mentioned it once? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 John J. Smith, called as a witness, being duly sworn, testified 
 as follows: 
 
 Direct examination by Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. You are conmectied wfQi what dompany? A. Hook and 
 Ladder 2. ~ ; i 
 
 Q. You have been iln the department bow long? A. Over 
 14 years. 
 
 Q. Who are the piersonis in your coompany who have so far been 
 on the witness stand? A. None of the members of the com- 
 pany I am in. 
 
 Q. None of the members of the company? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What company were yon iui last wilnter? A. Last winter? 
 
 Q. Yes? A. Since about Jajnuairy 26th I have been in charge 
 of Engine Company No. 8, on Monday, Wednesday and some- 
 times Sunday. 
 
 Q. What members of that company hiave been on the witness 
 stand? A. Ward, Conway and Sheriden. 
 
 Q. Yon are acquainted with those three genrtiemen? A. Yes, 
 sip. 
 
 Q. You have'heiard their testitniony? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And yoii are the Smith referred to iln that testimony? A. 
 Yes, sir, 
 
 Q. As given by tihose three gentlemen? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Yion may state th.e conversation they detailed, as yon re- 
 member it? A. The next mominsr of the day that this amend- 
 
280 
 
 ment was published in the newspaper I was detailed to that 
 company, and I went around there; this Convvaiy was at his 
 engine doing something, and when I went in I says^ " Well, I see 
 we are with you in the bill;" he looked up at me in. a kiad of 
 saucylike way, and he says, "Yes;" I went downstairs in the 
 cellar; shortly after he same diown, and he came up to me, and 
 he says, " You'r a pretty smart lot of fellows to go and try to 
 get your salary increased at our expense; " I says, " Well, I will 
 tell you, Conway, I want to have noi conversation with you in 
 relation to this matter; " because he seemed to be kind of angry 
 about it; so the least said the soonest mended; that is all the 
 conversation I had with him in relation to that matter at that 
 time. 
 
 Q. Well, was there a conversation subsequently? A. At the 
 desk one night, one evening, we liad a conversation, brought 
 up by another matter; and he was slightly under the influence 
 of liquor. 
 
 Q. Which one? A. Oonway; not enough so as to be unable to 
 perform his duty, but so that it was noticeable; a man, 
 wbein he drinks, yioiu can notdoe itt on hdm); anjd he started, in about 
 the bill; "Now," I saysi, "Oomway, the best thinig you can dot m 
 to Ihiave nothamg to siay im relatioioi to thisi matter; " I said, "Any- 
 tliing we do we do it in our own organizatioyQ and we don't want 
 to be talkdlng about it; " thjaib isi ail tihe ooniwersation I toad with 
 him in relationi toi it 
 
 Q. Did ywui tell 'him that you had oontriiburted tioi some fund, lajny 
 sum whiatevet? A. 'So, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, now, you heard itiliei testimjomy of Oonway, tjhiat you 
 said to himi, " Thais bill of yours is stuck in thie citjy commiittee iln 
 the Seniaite; '' did yoiu stay that to him? A. No, sin; never made 
 any remiark of that kind to Mm. 
 
 Q. And did he siay that i)t was a gneat shame that it was stuck 
 there? A. No, sir. , i 
 
 Q. Did you say, " You lanow why it is sticking there? '' A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Did you flnaily say, "Well, you know very well ttoait all 
 thioise people are not up there for their heailth, aind tfliev want the 
 necessary; " did you say thiat? A. Nb, sir; I never said that 
 
 Q. Did he siay five cents of thie necessary they never would 
 get from Mm? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Anid did you reply, "Well, there it will stick?" A. No, siiir. 
 
 Q. "And so we went oni umitil he said they hKid |10,000 already 
 placed;" did you say that? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q, Did you teli Tou-w-ay that thipire M'as lamy sunt placed amy- 
 whevp? A. No, sii;r; never saald so, to anybody. 
 
2S1 
 
 Q. Dii you furiiher saiy td Mm, " It will stidk thjere unless you 
 people aoDie up? " A. No^ sir. 
 
 Q. Au'd did he reply, " 1 don't belieive tihait we will 'COme upj ilf 
 tihey do it will be uuknown to me; " did you say tlhiait? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. And did you fimally wind) upi by saying tihiait tjkey were all 
 a lot of fools, and that was all you ijad to- say atoout it? A. JSTo-, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Did you say to tmn, " If worst come® to' worait; we will 
 carry you tiu-ougih,? A. Ma, sir. 
 
 Q. And did you finally say, " Yoiu) don't ihaTe to do auytihdlag 
 for tK, we will do our ofwn businieiss; " didi you say tlhait? A. No, 
 sir. ^ 
 
 Q. Diid you say Ho Mm, " Tke only tMng tliat is bottoering me 
 is that you people may be thrown off tlie bill ? " A. Mo, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you tell Oonway that Lou Paym was fhanidliing tihe 
 money? A. M0, sir. 
 
 Q. "Wlas Payn's name mentioned? A. Noi, sir; I nieveir heard of 
 Payn iiaving anytMlnig toi doi with; it. 
 
 Q. Do you know Slheriiidam? A. Yes, siir. 
 
 Q. Was Sheridan presienit at ai conivereatibn that you had with 
 Conway? A. I don't know whether hie was presentt at the con- 
 versa,tion or not, but I know he canue dtown in thie meantime wilth 
 his arms full of papiens; and he said somethitnig; I don't know 
 what it wiais, only I told him, "Sheridan^ I told you biefoine I want 
 no conTersatiJon with' you whatever." 
 
 Q. Well, did you say in thie pinesenice of Sheoriidan, anythJitng 
 about $10,000? A. Ma, sir. 
 
 Q. Or that Mr. Lou' Payn was furthering the interests ot the 
 bill? A. Mo, sir. 
 
 Q. "And we didn't make a move until the man that told you to 
 go ahead with your Mil told us to do the same? " A. Mo, sir. 
 
 Q. WaiS Mr. Piatt's namie mentioned, ilni any way; " Sheridan 
 asked me who thiat mian wais that tolidi hita itio goi ahead," and you 
 said, " Thomas 0. Pllatttl? " A. At that conYersatilon? 
 
 Q. In' any of thoise conversations? A. In the cionTersation we 
 had in the desl?, it related to- the same matter; he had juisit come 
 dio'vra on house waitdh, anid lit wasn't in relatita ttoi the salary bill 
 at this time; it wasn't brought on then; but he said — he got in 
 on tihe watch desk, and tiumied to me, and said, " Yon people said 
 that Mr. Pla.tt is ilnitereslted' ini yonr bill;" I didn't answer him; 
 he says, " I've goit a letiter in my pocket that says he has nothing 
 at all to do with it; " I told Mm, furthermiore, that I wanted no 
 conversiation, ais I said btefore, with hlltnL 
 
 Q. Well, now, what has been the relatibn between you and 
 this man Shieridlan? A. Well, thfey haven't been very gobd since 
 the night of the Hotel Ven'dome'si fire;' I had' some trouble. 
 
 F, 3fi 
 
282 
 
 Q. AbioiuU how long- agO' was tliat; pirevibius tb the Isit of Jarnit- 
 airy? A. Anoiuiid tihe 24tli; I believe it -was in Jamiairy. 
 
 Q. What was the maitter? A. Well, when. I reported to thaj: 
 fire, in charge of Engine 8, I was ordered to stretch my line uip 
 tihe flre-escape, and I called to the men tto' gelt off sufficient hlose 
 to reaeh the top floor, if necesisary; they got th:e hose off, and 
 they were acting — they didn't act as if they were in aooord wiit(h 
 mie or trying to assist me in any way; one of them, Sheridan, oir 
 a man named Plate, wanted to wait; he says, " Hold on, and the 
 tower will get here; " I says, "I am here toi do dfuty, and I atnt 
 going to wait foir any tower; 1 have been ordered to get my line 
 up there, and I want you to get to workj and get up there;" 
 and I says to Sheridan, " Oome <m and get ahold of that pipe 
 and get her up there;" and I took the pipe and went uip, and 
 I goifc in a room, and it was full of smiokie, and I didn't see Sheri- 
 dan there; and I asked where he wasi, and he said', "Down 
 stairs;" and I said, "Well, yoiui fellows are siupposed to be with me^ 
 and I am in command of this company, and I want you to dio 
 what I tell you'; " sloi we had that oomvensiation, there and then; 
 and 2 hook and ladder come along, and I says toi ithe oaptaim, " I 
 can't get these fellows to get thisi lime up for me." 
 
 The Chairman. — Well, is' this material? 
 
 Mr. Raines. — Yes; I think it isi; those are the three gentleanienj, 
 the ,three young gentlemen from the ho'se-house whoi were on the 
 witness stand, and testified that 'this man said these things; 
 he is siiimiply explaining to you tihe malice of these witnesses; it 
 strikes right to the very heart of this situiation. 
 
 Q. Go on, Mr. Smith, and tell us the rest? A. I got to the top 
 floioi-, and the 2 truck assisted me, and when I got upstairs. Chief 
 Crocker, he told me to get my line into a room; it was very warm 
 in the room, and smoky, and I looked around, and Captain 
 Grady, of Hook and Laidder 2, called away his men to pepPormi 
 some other duties that was allotted to him and his company ; and) 
 I held on to my line, and I hpdn't anybody to help me; I went 
 Into the room and stayed there for nearly five minutes. 
 
 Q. Was there trouble about that, between youi and these men? 
 A. Sheridan was in the room; he was sent up there by Captain 
 Grady, by my request, and I told him to take hold of the pipe, 
 and he declaired it was too much foti- Mm. to do alone ; and I says 
 to him, " If you move out of this room, I will prefer a charge of 
 cowardice against you; " then Chief Crocker came along and 
 wanted to know what was the matter; I told him I was trying 
 to get the men — to get this man in his place; after that I had 
 no use for thlat man ; I didn't think he was a, fit man to be withl 
 mie; tbat was all. 
 
 Q. This partLoulai" man was SheiMan?' A. Yes, sir. 
 
283i 
 
 Q. Did you have oocaisiion to send foir yoiur chief? A. Not on 
 this occasiion; no, sdr; thialt was siooniething else. 
 
 Q. Anjother oooasiion? A. Yes, siir. 
 
 Q. Well, now, state that 
 
 Senator Oantor. — Is it neoesisary, Mr. Eiadiaes, toi state all tihe 
 deitails? 
 
 By Mr. Rainesi: 
 
 Q. Did you subsequemtlly hame trouble wiltih Sheridan? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there siuclhi la tronxble — was tihere a timie when, trouble 
 was omly pneyemiteid, whiem youi hiad to isiend for, your icihief, to 
 preyent personal vioileince? A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. WThen was thiaiti? A I can't gi^ie yon the date of it; it is 
 two or three weeks aigci; three weeksi ago; the wiay tlhat ilt oanue 
 abourt. was — 
 
 Q. Who were conoemed in that? A. Firemiam Ward. 
 
 Q. That wais Ward? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was Fitzgerald? A. ^SToi; there isi no Fitzgerald ki' that 
 company; 
 
 Q. Sheridlan'? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Gomwiay ? A. Not ini that tronible. 
 
 Q. This was witih Ward? A Yes^ siir. 
 
 Q. Well, how^ was it? A. Well, the first titaiie I got an ordler 
 from heaidquarters to get e^ierytihing ready for inspection, for a 
 visit from the eonmnilsisioneirsi; I was detailed toi thiat ooimipany, 
 and when the order was received I read the oirder to tihe m'en at 
 roll (Ml. 
 
 Q. I want to get rigihit aiti the fact, Officer Smith, aibiont the rielah 
 tion? A. Well, tihiat is what I will ihiame to doi; and I read, the 
 order to the mea, anid told them, I say®, " Men,, yoo have hieiard 
 this order read; " of aonrsie, not being ih' miy own oomipaniy, I 
 didn^t'know what work was allottied to eachJ mian; tihereforie, T 
 couldn't tell each; mian to go and do a ciertalni thanig; I went 
 upstairs after that and sat down, and I was up there until half- 
 past 11, and then! I went down; they weire sitting at tihe table, 
 and nothing ihald been done; I says, " Now, hene, I want tlhis work 
 done; I told yon distinctly this morning, I wanted this work 
 done ; I want yon to go and do the work ; " I says, " The horses 
 hiaven't been cleaned; " 1 didn't ktootw who was driviinig. 
 
 Q. Were yon tempoirarily ikii ichairge of this ciomipiany? A. Yes, 
 sir; whien WaM ciame in ihe salii'd, "Did yon say I didn't clean 
 thlem horses," I said " Yesi; are yom the driver? " BDe saild, " Yesi; " 
 T says " Well, yon dildn't diean the horses; " he says, " Well, I did 
 dean tJie horses; " I isiays, " I know you didn't; " I told himi " You 
 go down and dean thiem; " he says, " Do yon know what I tihink 
 
284 
 
 of yoTi? Yioiui are a stuff;"' I wemt 'doiwn amd plaoedl it iin the 
 journal of the CDimpaiiiy, ajnd thiart: nigM, wlieni the cihief visited 
 quarters^ I told iTiiimi about it; I tried toi get witneisses tO! ttoa/t 
 effect^ but I Ihad mla wiitnessesi; amd tih,eiii', the next oocasion^ I had 
 to send for the chief, was a few olg'hjtsi after it; Ward camne into 
 the enigitie-hiGnee; his namie was on the watch-list as beilng 
 as&jigned to theatre duty, and at 8 oi'doick I was Sitanidiing at the 
 desk and Ward walked in, amd I knew that he wia» detailed, and 
 I thioTiight perhaps nioibody had gome toi the theatre, amd I walked 
 over to him amd siaiid, " Ward, I have you detajied to the theaitre; 
 why haivem't you gome? " " Oh," he siays, " I hiame sent a miam'; " 
 so, when he stood up, I saw hie wais a little bit — he had a little 
 jag on himi; I says^ " Havem't I .a rigjht to bie com'sulted in thate 
 matter? " I siays, " Your name is om the waitdh-list to goi; " " Oh," 
 he says, "that aint official; you didm^t put that watcih-list th'eroi;' I 
 aint gotoig by that watdh-lieit; " I Imew, by the experience that, I 
 had before, amd knowing tihait I couildnj't get moi witnessesi im tjhe 
 ciompamy, I went amd semt a mam to the cihilefsi hbuae, amid he 
 wasm't there, and hie watsm't at home, amd Ohiief Walsh was om 
 reserve duty, amid semt womd that he couldm't come thiere. 
 
 Q. The result was that thesie mem and you hladi veiry serious 
 quarrels? A. Yesi, siir. 
 
 Q. And you complained to your chief? A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. As a matter of faict was there ever a time when you, said 
 anything to these men', im the mature of the conversations that 
 they say you had with them, or did you ever say to them that 
 3'ou had paid am assessment? A. l^o, sdir. 
 
 Q. Or anything of the kind on the subject? A JSTo, sir; only 
 what I have said 
 
 The Ohairmam. — Mr. Root, any questions? 
 
 Frank W. Goiodersom, Jr., called as a witness, being duly 
 sworn, testified as followis: 
 
 Direct examination by Min Eiaines: 
 
 Q. What is your position in thle department? A. Foreman 
 of Engine Compaaiy 35. 
 
 Q. Are you ai member of the officers? associatiom? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you hold any official position in that assoeiation? A 
 Director for the eleventh battalioni. 
 
 Q. Thbise are the collectors? A. They collect; yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. A memiber of the legislative committee also? A. No, sir; 
 mot exactly. 
 
 Q. Well, what other relatitoni do you' hold to the organization? 
 A. None; I would like to state that I was partially notified to 
 act on the legislative committee, but I never did 
 
285 ■ 
 
 Q. Now, them, yom lilaJve attended! tlie meetings of tih-e officers 
 organization during the last year? A. Ye®, siir; 1 ha,ve only 
 missed one or two. 
 
 Q. Have yon misised any this year? A. Missed one, in Jan- 
 uary, I think; that isi all. 
 
 Q. Gooiderson, haye yora any knowledge of the levying of any 
 assessment, or the collectioini of any assessment but the f 1 assess- 
 ment spoken of by Officer BymeiSs upon the offloers. or memjbers 
 of the officeirs' assoiciation? A, No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you been aslied toi pay any assessment, or have you 
 paid any? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you known of the collectiom, of any assessment wliat- 
 evei' among the officers, ontsidie of the |1 ai month assessment? 
 A. Nio, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yon Imow of any? A. No; never. 
 
 Q. Collection of such asessmemt? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Has any money been used in any way, toi your knowledge, 
 by the officers for the pmrposes of legislative woirlc this winter, 
 outside of the $1 a month tax? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you collected any money ontlsiJde the $1 a month tax? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know Foreman EeaJd? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What company was he connected with? A. Assistant fore- 
 man of engine 58. 
 
 Q. Now, you have called upon him at hisi flre^house, I suppose? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Had some businesis! witthi him? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Didi you hear the testimony that he saild to the men, as 
 you weire coming, "That here ooones the man that is after my 
 assessmenii for the salary bill," in substance? A. T heard that 
 testimony; yes. 
 
 Q. Did you, at any time, collect or ask Eeed for any moneys, 
 in connection with the assessment for the salairy bill? A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Did you receive lamy moneys from anybody in yonr bat- 
 talion in reference to the saJiatry bill? A. No, sir. ^ 
 
 Q. Anything but the |1 a month tax? A. That is ail. 
 
 Q. And this |30 or $45 oir |90 or $80 paid by any officer; do 
 you knorw anything about the collection! of such an amount? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do yon know anythiinig Sitioiut the piaytmlem* of sndh am 
 amount to anybody ? A. Noi, slip. 
 
 Q. Yon never received it? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q.- Xnd you recolleot the tilrae when you did call on Officer 
 Reed at his fire-hlousie, and had a looliversiaitlibin ontsilde tihe dooir? 
 
286 
 
 A. No, sir; I never biad a comivaMatioini onjitadlde tlhe fire door; 
 inside tihe house I iiad a oomvei'sartiloii wirtiii haimi 
 
 Q. You wemt^ therei? A. I weat ttoere; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Isn't that tlhie eanversiatioin whicii) was detlailied yeBiterday? 
 A. No, sir; Itot ib another mam,; that Is amotih.'eir miaittter. 
 
 Q. Now, have you tiald lanytMnig ajbout going to Aibtoy? A. 
 No, sliir. 
 
 Q.,Yoiu haven't been to Albany? A. No, sir; noitl siin'oe 1894; I 
 vi^ent up there for ai day's sport, and I had it. 
 
 Q. I dotn't know anytihl'nig laibouit thait?' A. I haven't been tjheire 
 since, or before, iln my life. 
 
 Q. Who was tihie collector of your battalion:? A. I am. the 
 director and thie collector. 
 
 Q. You are the ciollector of thefl a month, tax? A. Yesi, silr. 
 
 Q. If any moneys were collected' in your baittaliom you would 
 have been the coUecitOr? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. — Any questions, Mr. Eoot? 
 
 Samjuel Eieed, calleld as a witness, being duly swoiti, tesibifled' 
 as foltowsi; 
 
 Direct examinatioin by Mr. Eaines: 
 
 Q. What company are youi connected with? A. Engine com.- 
 pany 58. 
 
 Q. HOw lomg 'hiaive yooi been comneoted with it? A. Two years: 
 
 Q. Ane you oannected with the officersi' organifcaititon ? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. A member? A. Yes, sir; aiS a member. 
 
 Q. Dom't hold any official relatijoa to it? A. No;, sir. 
 
 Q. Who are the mten in; your flre-hlouise that Ihiave been wit- 
 nesses here? A. Zoni, Kelly and Thom'psoini 
 
 Q. You are acquainted wiili those genitlemien? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Haye you e'\^r kmawm of the collectJioin of amy moneys, for 
 legiislartive purpoisies, loutside of 'the $1 a miomitfa tax spokieni of by 
 Officer Byrnes? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever paM' anytlliing in to suioh a fumd? A. No^ sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever 'been asikedi to pay to any such, fu'nid ? A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Have you known' of amy officer payinig to any suidh fuind? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Has any offilcer told you that he paidi to any siuch fund'? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Wblart did you say tlo the boiys in the flre-hbuise on' tihle s'ubiject 
 of yo'ur doing so? A. T told them at one occasion; I told itliem. I 
 put in 'a; hnrdred. 
 
 Q. Let us get the occasion; ttie flrsti talk you had' with tiliem was 
 about wteen? A. Well, thiat I mlighH say, was in tlhe learly part of 
 Maridhj. 
 
287 
 Q, Yes; go oin>. A. Anid thatt was in ttie slttinig-room, om thie totp 
 
 flOKM". 
 
 Q. Yes. A. WOiem they woTild speak — it was ami aninial affair 
 and daily also, iln respect toi this and tliieiir Mli. 
 
 Q. With respect to them and their salary bill? A. Yes, sir"; 
 they would say, " Well, I see that you people hai^'e ooime in with 
 us; what di'd yo^i giVe np? " And I would siay, " Oh, I giVe up a 
 hundred." 
 
 Q. They said that toi you ? A. Yes, s^iir. 
 
 Q. And yow replied, " Oh, I gave up a; hundreld? " A. Yesi, sir; 
 on; one oicciasdon;, I siaiid, "Well, they let me doiwm withi 75;" 
 and, on another ocicasiJomi, I said, " Well, 50 ; " I had' toi get oiver 
 50, for to please them; and that statement that I made, in respect 
 to tihat, co'umselor, was f oir the welfare and benefit of 'iMme pe'ople, 
 to brinig to their orgamlzation, to btei pla,eed in that claissiflcatiioni 
 of a large book of keepihg tabs on' officiers. 
 
 Q. That is, you stated these things foi" the purpose of having 
 them put do^'n in the firemen's books? A. Most assuredly. 
 
 Q. Thie way Thiompson puts! it, as Thompson says, "He 
 told me on or about the 2d of March "^ — A. Beg pardon; did he 
 saiy the 2d or 3d of April; I was here when he made the state- 
 ment. 
 
 <3j. He said, "On another occasion, on the 3di of April; ".yes; 
 first he said the 2d of March — that yoiu put up money for the 
 increase in salary, and hoped the men would do the same? A. 
 Shall I answer. 
 
 Q. Yes? A. Fireman Thompson was off for 24 hours on the 
 2d day of March, and didi mot repoirtt to the engine-houise until 
 8 o'clock On the 3d day ol Mar'ch. 
 
 Q. He was off a day om thIe 2d? A. Yes, sir; it was Saturday. 
 
 Q. So that this conversation dild not occur at that time? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, did you tell him, on that day oo" any other day, that 
 you pnt wp ,|30? A. T put up |30? the consideration relating tO' 
 the |30 Y/as said by them, amd not by me. 
 
 Q. >'-^tate how? A. Because they said, "Well, 1 hear that the 
 assistant foreman hias got to piit up .$30 and the foreman ^45, 
 and I will tell you they have got to go deep into this matter ; " 
 and I says, "Oh, well, they've skinned me; I put up a hundred." 
 
 Q. You are just what you look to be, Mr. Reed, a. joker? A. 
 Well, T am classified as that. 
 
 Q. And so this cotnversatlilotn' ran on from time to time to the 
 diffeirent amounts being mentitoned? A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. RegaETding the increase or decrease of 1he amount? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
2SS 
 
 Q. Did you even gay, in taJkokig with these men, that joa 1 
 actually paid |1 to anybody, or been asktd to pay $1 to a 
 body on account of legislation in regard to the salary i/ill? 
 Xo, sir; I never did. 
 
 Q. T>o you Icnow of anybody paying any money on that 
 count? A. I do not, sir. 
 
 Q. Wais there any time whteu Mr. Quigg invited you to go 
 see him? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or you were asked to go and see him? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did anyone come to see you and ask you whether you h 
 said tiese things at any time? A. They did not. 
 
 Q. When first were yoiu called upon in conne(!tion with th< 
 remarlis that were attributed to you? A. Last Saturday. 
 
 Q. And who called on you? A. It was a gentleman that ca 
 to the house about half-paisit S o'clock at night. 
 
 Q. I suppose yoiu werie asked then what 30U had said? 
 Well, he gave me — no, no, counselor; lie gave me a subpoena 
 called the time on him M giving 'he subpoena; 1 says, "W< 
 what is this for; what is the date;" and he said, "Oh, I i 
 giad that you spoke about tha/t to me ; it is for to-morrow ; " a 
 he took the pen anid ink from the desk and wrote down, " Sat 
 day," that I should comie here Satiurday; that was on Frid 
 night, but he had no place to tell me to conic, nor anything 
 the kind; and I says, "Well, where shall I got to?" "Oh," 
 says, "I forgot all that," and he took the pen and he wrote 
 out, and he wrote " The Tombs," and then, of course, the day, 
 o'clock, a. m., on Saturday. 
 
 Q. Well, go on; you honored that subpoena? A. Yes, sir; I di 
 
 Q. Wh^ asked you, after that, vrh ether you had said tb< 
 things to those people? A. After that? 
 
 Q. I suppose yow hare been, asked whether you said th( 
 things? A. The president of the b«Dar^ of fire commissioned 
 Mr. La Gmange, sent for me; yes. 
 
 Q. How did you get on. with Mr. La Orange? A. I told h 
 juist the same as I am telling yoto and the gentlemen of thte co 
 mittee, that I was joking when I was making the remairik®. 
 
 Q. Did you get any order subsequiently, to gO' over and t 
 Mr. Boot that you were joking? A. No, sir; I did noit 
 
 The Chairman. — ^Any questions, Mod. Boolt? 
 
 Wiliam H. Quihn, called' as a witness, being dtily sworn', tes 
 fled aJS foUowsi: 
 
 Direct examination by Mr. EaiinieB: 
 
 Q. What company are you connected with? A. Engine co 
 pany 18, 
 
289 
 
 Q. Atiid hbiw long have yoni been oonneetied witih ithat oompamy? 
 A. Since the 1st day of January, 1895. 
 
 Q. Doi you told any relation toi the officers' organizaition ? A. 
 A membe* oif it. 
 
 Q. Any ©fcheri poisiition? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q, Yon aire not a director? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever paid any money towards any fund for legis- 
 lative purposes aside from the $1 -a month assessment? A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Spoken of by Of&cer Byrnes? A. Noi, sir; none whatevei". 
 
 Q. Have you known of the collectSlon of any fund' outside ofl 
 that? A. No, sir; I do noit 
 
 Q. Have yoiu knoiwn of the payment of any officer? A. No, sii'. 
 
 Q. To any fund? A. No-, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with James G-. Clifford? A. James Di. 
 Oliffoird; yes, sir. 
 
 Q, How long have yon known him? A. Three years and a 
 half, I should judge; three years, I guess; about three years. 
 
 Q. Yom recollect the time when you were detailed on duty 
 somewhere at the theaiteir and 01iffol"d came and had a talk with 
 you? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever — ? A. I was not detailed to any theater; T 
 went to siee Mr. Clifford. 
 
 Q. Where? A. Daly's theater. 
 
 Q. You go on and detail that conversation as it occuiTed? A. 
 I wient to see him regarding the firemen's association; I went tO' 
 inquire if they intended to take any active part in Assembly bill 
 879. 
 
 Q. What bill is that? A. For the paiyment of the 2 per cent 
 foireign' fire insurance tax; I asked hiim if they intended tO' takei 
 any action, and he said they couldn't tell, as that all depended 
 upion the fate of the salary bill, but that thiey had been intending 
 to take it up aifter the salairy bill had been disiposed of; I told 
 him if they desired to take any such action, that the ofBcers? 
 assoicdation would be pleased tO' Imow it ait as early a date a^ 
 possible; he told roe that their legislative coimmitte'e met, I think 
 he said, the next Thurslday, and that he would give information 
 to them of our request. 
 
 Q. Thait oonvereation related 'toi the 2 per cent, tax bill, and' 
 he isaid that they were not going to consider the 2 per cent, tax 
 matter until after the salary bill was passed? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Noiw, then, did you say anything to him on the subject of 
 tli(> salarj' bill? A. IS^o, sir. 
 
 Q. How? A. No, sir; any more than in regard to that, -where 
 he said that it was too bad, and he asKeid me if I was interested;: 
 
 r. 37 
 
290 
 
 I told him, no; for the simple reason that I was too joiung a 
 member, having been promoted om' the 1st day of January. 
 
 Q. DM you tell Mr. Oliffiord! tihen and tlhene, thiajt you had full 
 mfoiraniaitiiioin that thiait bill of theirs would never bie reported' to 
 the Senate commjittee withiou* the use of money ? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And thiart t!he officers in the fire department hlad come to the 
 ormiduisioini to put up |15,000, and that they were expected to- pro- 
 vide the 130,000, makinig $45,000 for the pasisilmg of that 'bill? A. 
 JSTo, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you tell him any srach. thing? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. DM yon say that the dinfoirtolatjion came toi you directly from 
 a gentleman named Lon Pajyn? A No, sir; I didai't; I don't knoiw 
 Mr. Payn. 
 
 Q. DM yon state to imm that he — did yon ever meet Mr. Lou 
 Payn? A. No, sir; and womldn't know him if I was tO' fall iwer 
 Mm. 
 
 Q. DM you suggesit to him th'at hie meet the president of the 
 officers' association, Joihni J. Byimies? A No, sir; I didn't. 
 
 Q. And see if he couMn't effect a consoilidaMon of interests? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Wiell, did you say something to Mim alboiut seeing Byrnes 
 upon the subject oif the 2 per oent. tax bill? A. No more Ihan io 
 let the officers' association kmorw, if they intended to take any 
 actioni, and at as early a daite as poiseible. 
 
 Q. Did you say anything aibout the raising of money for the 
 passing of the 2 per oent. tax bill ? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Nothing at all about the raising of money? A. No, sir; 
 nothing then. 
 
 Q. Did he tell yon that the Conetituitli'onial amendment pre- 
 vented your loolfirig for an increase oif salary for thie next 10 
 years? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Dild you tell him that? A. No', sir; T wasn't aware of any 
 such thing, and I couldn't tell MIm tJiat. 
 
 Q. Did yon say to Mm that, b^ore that bill passed, they would 
 have to u'se money? A No, sir; I did not. 
 
 Q'. DM yon say that Senator Bbbertson' would never allow 
 the lill to be pa'SBed, unless th^ money was forthcoming? A. 
 T don't know, because I didn'li k-now anything aibout it. 
 
 Q. Do you know Senator Eolblertson personally? A. Yes, sir; I 
 know him' to speaik to. 
 
 Q. When you see hiikn, A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yon ever hlave any talk with hlim a,bout the bill ? A. No, 
 sir : I haven't seen Sematoir Robertson since; I thltak it was March, 
 1898 , relatinig to the isiame 2 per cent, taximeasure. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Clifford adVi'Se you to correspondi wiith the chair- 
 man of the legiisJativie coimtmiltttleie, Mir. Eiaieigani, toi see if hie oould 
 
291 • 
 
 effect a siettleinleuit? A. He referred to hiaTing sbimebad y writteD 
 to, in regard to it. 
 
 Q. What? A. Eieigatrding tihiis oomferemoe. 
 
 Q. On the 2 per cient. taix matter? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Wanted you to write to Mir. Eaegiain on that subje'jt? A. 
 No; not me; first, he waiiited the siecrietlary ; I told him it would 
 he imposisible for hiimi, as he was dead; lie siaid then, the presi- 
 dent; I said it would be a hard thing for him, as he was in 
 Albany; after that Ke said he would inform the legislative com- 
 mittee regarding th^ desire, and that was all. 
 
 Q. Did he say to you that they had decided toi lose theilr bill 
 rather thian to adViance any anoniey? A. Money matters was not 
 si^okeu of regarding tihe bill at all. 
 
 Q. Did you tell him that your officers were collecting money, 
 iind putting up their money, anid that the bill woiuid be sacrificed 
 if the money wiais naU fOiPthldominig? A. ^o, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you tell Mm' that he ouglit to have sonxe knowledge of 
 Tayn, and the kind of gientlemien tbat he was? A. What is 
 that? 
 
 Q. Did you tell hiim that he Ought to ha acquainted and know 
 the kind of a gentleman Mr. Paryn was? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did youi tell him that anything that Payn took hold of 
 was suipe to pass; that the people were with him at Albany? A. 
 No, sir; it would be a hard thing foir me to say all this when I 
 don't know Mr. Payn. 
 
 Q. Well, then, you say that this entu*e interview related to the 
 2 per cent, tax? A. Yes, w". 
 
 Q. And you say that, on the suibiject of this conversation, that 
 Clifford is twisting what you isaid with refei'enoe to the salary 
 bill? A. I don't know about the twistJkig; our conversation 
 related to the 2 per cent, tax matter entirely, with the exception 
 of the winding up of it, about papers tihat were connected with 
 the association, that he requested me to turn over; I had been 
 the secretary of that organization up to the 1st day of January. 
 
 Q. The firemen's association? A. Yes, sir; and he asked me 
 if I had' any other papers belomging toi the association, if T would 
 turn them over at as early a datle as possible. 
 
 The Chalmian.— Is that all? 
 
 Mr. Elaiilnes. — Just one moment. 
 
 The OhialTman. — Any questions, Mr. Eoiot? 
 
 By Mr. Eaines: 
 
 Q. At any time were you qirestioned by Mr. <^mgg with refer- 
 ence toi tMs matter? A. No, sir. 
 
292 
 
 Q. Yoia have never been invited to any interview wltli Mm? 
 A. No, sir; I have been by a gentleman who wanted to know if 
 what Mr. Clifford said was oornect; I told him it was not 
 
 Q. Who came to see yoiui? A. Mr. O'Leary. 
 
 Q. Of Thei Press? A. Yes, siir. 
 
 Q. Thait was when? A. Last — the early part of last week. 
 
 Q. Sinice the pnblicatilon of the artiiole in The Press? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Williaimi C. Clarke, called as a witnesis, being duly swom, 
 testified as follows: 
 
 Dliireiot examination by JVEr. Eaines: 
 
 Q. Whiat company are you connected wdlth? A. Engine 60. 
 
 Q. How lonig have you been connected with that company? 
 A. The 1st of January this year; just orgamized. 
 
 Q. How? A. The company is juist organized since the 1st of 
 January this year. 
 
 Q. How long have you been connected with the department? 
 A. Eleven years. 
 
 Q. A member of the oilicers' organization? A. Yps, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you hold any official connectibn with it? A. Xo. sir. 
 
 Q. Have you, ait any time during the last year, paid nny assess- 
 ment except the |1 ai month assessment spoken of by Mr. Hyrnes. 
 
 Q. Have you paid any sum whatever for legislative purposes, 
 outside of that $1 ai month tax? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. For any special fund? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do yon know of the oolleotion of amy sum? A. No, sir; 
 T do not. 
 
 Q. Ainiong the offlcers? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Hiaive you been asked for any? A. No', sir. 
 
 Q. YoM are acquiainted with Fireman Landers? A. Yos^, sir; 
 slightly. 
 
 Q. Are jOm acquainted with one Ryan? A. I know him vory 
 well; he is the only man in the battalion I do know: ] am a 
 stranger up there, and he is the only one T was vers- weW ac- 
 quaolmted with'. 
 
 Q. He has testified here that, outside of the engine-house, in 
 front of the doors, yooii remarked to Landers, you had a con- 
 A'ensa'bion in which you' told Landers that tho bill would be all 
 right, and that they would have to put up, and that Landem 
 f^aid he was perfectly willing to' put up, and wanted to know 
 what would be dolne with the money if the bill did not pass, and 
 you told him that they would get it back; did any such conversa^ 
 tion occur between you and Landers? A. Noi, silr; never had an,V 
 
293 
 
 couiTersiation of that kind at all; the oonversatioinj I had with 
 Foreman Landers was iin relation to the 2 per cent, tax; he was" 
 a man that had met -with a very serions injury and! was on the 
 sick list, and it wasi.the first day he was out, amd I went up to 
 relieve the officer in engine 41, an!d he wasi in convensaitibn with 
 Ryan at the time; Ryan said that he felt very baidi, that he would 
 have to get retired, but that the condition of the fund at that 
 time would not warrant it, but if the 2 per cent tax woiuld goi 
 thnough he would feel easier; somjetihing to that eflfect; and that 
 is all the conversation I had with him. 
 
 Q. Was there anyttting said abooit the payment of money by, 
 you between yon and Landers? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or aboiut getting the money back, if yon did pit up money? 
 A. No, sir; never mentioned snch a thing; it was plainly eviden|t 
 that he was a sort of detective or somethimg in that battalioni, 
 and wanted to make some sort of a report, and I guess him bteing 
 acquainted with me that he thought I wonld be a goiold mark for' 
 him, or something; he is the only man uip there that I would; 
 allow to speak to me in that way; all the other firemien up there 
 are strangers to me, and he is thie only man that I wotald allow, 
 to speak to me in that way; he say si, " I hear there is a corruption 
 fund, or something of that kind," and I says, " Oh, noi; what do' 
 yon mean?" and he says, "Oh, you know; we are all in it;" I 
 says, " What do yon mean? " and I toldl him righit there, that he' 
 was the only mian in the fire department that I wonld allow toi 
 talk that way to me; but I didn't think he wasi serious in the; 
 matter at all. 
 
 Q. Was there any mention made of the salary bill in any way ? 
 A. No, sdtri; only except he said, "I heard you speaking about 
 a coaffiuptilan fiinid; " he didn't hear noithing of the kind; I thought 
 lie was joking, as I say, and as I toild him, in front of those twO' 
 firemen at the time. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you, at that time, that it was a mean thing " to 
 jump on our bill and try to swamp it witW the officers' amend- 
 ment," and did you say that would be all right? A. No^, sir; I 
 didn't make any snch an answer. 
 
 Q. Did he say to youi that yoni folks shouldn't jump on the flre- 
 meu's bill? A. No, sir; in fact when he saw me speaking 
 upstairSi I told him — I told him' right there, that I didn't know 
 what he meant; and he saw that I was getting a little offended, 
 and he didn't say any more. 
 
 Q. Well, now, when did you hear of that talk afterward? A. 
 His talk? 
 
 Q. Yes; the remarks there between you and Landers and 
 Ryan? A. In the paper, the first time I ever heard of it. 
 
294 
 
 Q. When Ryan had testlifled? A. Yes, siir!; and I heard tihe tm- 
 timony, and that was the first tiane I ever heaTd of it; I had no 
 idea that he was seiiio.'uisi in the matter wh.en he Sipoke about ttie 
 oorruiption fund, in the engine-hofuse, and thait was the first tilm© 
 I heaird of it aifter'wards. 
 
 Q. Yora hayen't been asiked by ajnyboidy about the transaction 
 until he had swomi to it here? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. What you ispoke of to Lanidersi? A. Landersi went home 
 that afternoon, and was taken very sicli, and I believe he is not 
 expected to live; he is the. oldest man in the depairtlment, and is 
 72 years old; I believe he is very low. 
 
 Q. Not able to come here? A. Not able to oome, I guess; at 
 least I heard so; he is a man 72 years olid emdi he ham been in the 
 departmemt since the day of ite organizarfcioin, andi he ihaiS' been 
 down here, where they do a lot of duty. 
 
 Q. Well, now, did you ever hear of any suidh fund bieimg raised'? 
 A. No, sir; except what Tread' in the papers. 
 
 Q. Never asked to contriibute toi amy fumid? A. No, silr. 
 
 The Qhairman. — Any questions, Mr. Boot? Does auybod^ 
 want to ask any questiouis? Themi, tihlait is all. 
 
 Ohiarles H. Stone, called as a witness, bieiinig duly swom, testi- 
 fled as follows: 
 
 Direct examiaa'tion by Mr. Eiaiinesi: . 
 
 Q. Officer Stoue, what is your relatioin tO' tihe offioei's' orgamoaa- 
 tion ? A. I am secretary. 
 
 Q. tl'ow long have you been searetairy? A. Silnice Apiril. 
 
 Q. And as secretary, do you have poissesision of the meetinigs 
 of the oirganization ? A. Yes, slir; I do. 
 
 Q. And the book is 'here, ready for imspeatiom? A. I oan get it 
 iTi fi\'e minutes — less than that; I just lefC it across the street. 
 
 Q. It is close by, and yoiu can easily get it imi 10 minutes? A. 
 It is right across tke strwt; «iid I would sav that tli ere ils nolthing 
 in that book; I have only been setiretary siinice the flrisit part of 
 .April, and I have not aicted as siidh, and the book has been in 
 Mr. O'Eieilly's, the dKiceaised secretary's hainds; anid it ism^t wriliten 
 up; jW'hat meetingis he has not attended; there is nothing in the 
 book at all, but I can have it here in thiTe miinutesi; I left it in 
 the engine-hoaise aoross the street. 
 
 Q. It bias not been completely written up? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there amything in it in relation tlo the raasinig of money in 
 reference to the salary bill? A. No', siir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever known of the raising of money? A. Only 
 from thie plapers. ' 
 
295 
 
 Q. For tihe salary bill ? A. Only wliat I seen im tine papers. 
 
 Q. Yioiu have neiver teen asiked to pay any, nnomey, and haive 
 never paid any? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of ^amybody wiia has paid amy moraey, tofwand 
 sticlh a fumd? A. JSTo, sdir. 
 
 Q. Do you ka'Otw of any collection of money amionig tlhle officers 
 except thie |1 montb tax spoken of by Ofaoer Bymesi? A. No, 
 sir ; only tihe regular monltlily dues. 
 
 Q. Have you attended the oneetiinigsi regnlairiy during the last 
 year? A. Pretty well; I (have missed, off andl on, meletingsi; but I 
 guess, on an averaige, every otber maetiiinig I have atttended. 
 
 Q. You bave beard no tailk about naisiing any money? A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. At any meeting ait wbicbi yon have been present? A. No, 
 sir; all I have heard is about the 2 per cent, ais far as legiisila,tiOn 
 is concerned. 
 
 Q. Tihe 2 per cent, tax is all you have heaird tallieid aibout? A. 
 Yes,.s:ir. 
 
 The Qhairman. — ^Any questiloms to' this gentleman? That is 
 all. I 
 
 Williiam J. Colby, oalleid as a witness, beinig duly sworn, testi- 
 fied as follows: 
 
 Direct examdnaftion; by Mr. Elaihes: 
 
 Q. Whait is your ofSciail relation to the officers' association'? 
 A. Treasurer, sir. 
 
 Q. Of the offioers' association? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And, by virtue of your offi ce, are you a memiber of any com- 
 mittee? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you hold any other official position in the officers' asso- 
 ciation? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Atod you are connected with what company? A. li\)reman; 
 engitoe 2. 
 
 Q. Hioiw long have you Ween treasurer? A. Since the organiza- 
 tion las* June. 
 
 Q. Do you know of the collection of any moneys in tJie officers' 
 associaitib(n for flremen-'s pturpoises, or in connection with legisla- 
 tion, or in' any way, lor any purpose, that has not come into 
 your hanlds? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have yon refledlved any money except the' |1 a month tax? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of the levying of that? A. Oh, yes; I handle 
 all thte mlotney. 
 
 Q. Totu heard the testimiony of Officer Byrnes with regard to 
 the piaypient of thiat tax? A. Yes, sir; there is my book. 
 
296! 
 
 Q. Wais Ofacer Byrnes' statement of wliat your books show 
 correct? A. Teis, six. 
 
 Q. Ainid you produced the treasurer's book? A. Yes, sir;, and 
 I haive got all thie vouobers. 
 
 Q, Has amy mjomey been paid out of tteat fund for corruption? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Hajs auy money been paid out of that for corruption pur- 
 poses? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it all accoanted focp by these receipts that you have here? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have been asfced to pay nothing in counection with 
 any such fund? A. I have uot. 
 
 Q. D0 you know of any officer who has *been asked to contri- 
 bute to alny such fund ? A. I dou't ksnoiw of- anybody that paid 
 anything. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. Have you heard of amy fundi being raised? A. No, sir; and 
 I think I would have heajrd of it. 
 
 Q. For the purpoBies at Albany within the last year? A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. You have not been asked to contribute anythini^ yourself? 
 A. No^ sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any objectiion to Mr. Boot or Mr. Biaines taking- 
 your treasu'i-er's books and examiiniuig thtemi? A. No, sir; not a 
 paarticle. 
 
 By Mr. Eiaines: 
 
 Q. That is what you brought them here for, the ti'ea.surei- s 
 books, to bie examined? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. — Any questions of this witness'. No questions. 
 You cam be excused. 
 
 Joseph B. Maartim, called as a witness, beitng duly sworn, 
 testlfleid as follows: 
 
 Direct examination by Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. Wihat company are you conmecited witih? A. JEmgine com- 
 pany SI. 
 
 Q. How lomg have you been in the diepaiitment? A. Eleven 
 years. 
 
 Q. Do you hold any official position in the officers' organiza- 
 tion? A. Fiinamcial seciretary; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The moneys of the organization that are collected go 
 through yoiuip hands? A. Yes, sir. 
 
297 
 
 Q. The |1 a monitli tax goes through your hands? A. Yes, sir; 
 
 Q. Paid into you originally? A!. Mostly. 
 
 Q. Aind turned OTer by you to the treasurer? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of the collection of any other moneys frbm 
 the officers for any purposes whatsoever? A. I do not, sir. 
 
 Q, During the past year? A. 'Nq, silr. 
 
 Q. No moneys have been coillected or received, so far as yon 
 know, by anybody, ffrom anybody in the officers' association? 
 A. No^ sir; they hiaive not. 
 
 Q. Do you know of amy $30 or ^4S being collected from the 
 members of the association? A. I have no knowledge of it; 
 no, sir. 
 
 Q. HJave youi heard, ait gjny time, tlitit .anybody was engaged 
 in collecting the money in the organization? A. T did not; 
 no, sir. 
 
 (i. Have you heard anybody say he had paid? A. I have 
 never heard anyone say Ifliat; no', sir. 
 
 The QhaiiPmain. — ^Any questions to ask this witness? I want 
 to say right her?, on bte-half of the committee, that counsel have 
 condufited, on both, sides, so far, the i-egiilar order of direct and 
 cross-examination. The committee has supposed tliat that would 
 continue. "We give the counsel all opportunity on both sides 
 to go ahead in the sam,e line if tboy desire to. We don't want 
 it said, by and by, that we have offered only one side the privi- 
 lege of cross-examination. The commit be has not followed the 
 direct fxamimation ais carefully as fchey would have done, and 
 they did not feel required to ask every question that might be 
 necessarj, as if we had followed the investigation carefully from 
 the start, and not relied largely on ihe counsel. Otherwise, we 
 would have employed some one to look speciaii? as to the in- 
 vestigation of matters, and foUo'wed the evidence more closely. 
 Mr. Root. — Perhaps I should say tliat f, of course, do not 
 consider myself counsel for the committee T shall be nnable, 
 and have known from the first that T should be unable to con- 
 tinue throughout the sessions of the ci^nimittee, and have al- 
 ready devoted much lomger time to the presentation of the evi- 
 dence that I have presented than I expected to and felt able. 
 I suppose the commilttee will have either to rely upon them- 
 selves or to get someosne to appear for the f u rther prosecution of 
 their investigation. I am not willing to undertake it, having 
 accomplished the thing I set out to do. 
 
 The Ohairman.— We haven't heard of any such situation until 
 this moment; of course, aaid if there is any particular occasion 
 to CBoss-examine these witnesses, why the committee do not 
 hardly feel as if they could do it. 
 F. 88 
 
298 
 
 Tlioiae treasuxer's books may be lianded to tke sergeant-at- 
 aiims of thie comniittee, and I st'oald like to have those books, 
 which the preceding witness said were in the engine-house, 
 across the street, produced and haoided to the sepgeant-at-ainns. 
 
 By Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. Have you been interrogated by anybody as to whether you 
 had given any money? A. No one. 
 
 Q. Yo)U haven't heard of anybody having jmt up any money 
 among the officers? A, No, sir. 
 
 Q. YoTi haven't heard anybody being about among the officers 
 and gettiing the true facts in thils matter in behalf of The Pie.ss 
 or Mr. Quigg, or aaiybody else? A. I have not. 
 
 The Ohairanan. — No qnestions? That is all, witness. 
 
 Mr. Eiaines. — Now, I have to say to the committee, with re 
 gard to this matter, at this point, that the entire force of 19S 
 men are ready to pass over the witness stand and take their 
 corporeal oath that l£e same state of facts testilled to the others 
 is within their own knowledge. Whether the committee will 
 desiire to take theilr names in a box, and select out some, ov 
 whether they desire to have ttae whole oorpsi come here, is ii 
 matter for the oomimittee to comsider. Sufficient, as samples of 
 all, has been presented for the purpoises of an ordimairy investiga- 
 tion. Thie miost impressiiive fact that aippears at the presient time 
 is the fact that Mr. Boiot dioies mot go into thle croBiSHeKaaniniation' 
 of these gentlemien, and does not thi tik will aid the committee; 
 and whtein a lawyer runis away from am investigation of this kind, 
 at a time when the real, substantial thing appeared, why, it 
 doesn't seem probably useful to conlikiuie the line of investigation " 
 by further witnesses. Of ooiurse, it isi a mjatt.ter for the com- 
 mittee to consider. 
 
 Mr. Boot. — I was under the impreasion ttat I was here. 
 
 Mr. Elannes. — Of what leairthly use is a lawyer's presence; 1ih.i\t 
 doesn't iimpress anybody. It is Ms words of month. 
 
 Senator Cantor.— We differ' with you in that respect. 
 
 Ml'. Root, — I suppose that poiunsiel would have been very glad 
 in hnve had the time oicciipied by oross-examimation, \mt it (loesn't 
 S"r;ni to be useful. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — But it does seem stramge that you seem tx> have 
 any intpirest in that miemioranidnm book. 
 
 Mr. Root. — Xo cross-examination coiuld make the story told by 
 the mian who owned that memorandura book, on the stand, miofe 
 damninig than it was. 
 
 Mr. EaMes. — Is that the best excuse you have for that? 
 
299 
 
 Mr. Boot — It is not an eixciase. It is tritunpihaiiit justiflcataioii. 
 
 Mr. Baines. — Of wihiat? Of yoiuir netreaib? Will tliie oomlmiilttee 
 oonsidei' the queistioiDi iinait we liaye a lot of other epiideiiicie toi be 
 preserated, and whether we shall extend thie linie merely aanonig 
 the officers? 
 
 'Eh.e Chiaimiaii. — It doesn't seem to me mecessairy ft>r thiey 
 swear that thiey dom't knoiw anythiing aibout it. 
 
 Mr. Boot. — I don't want any misunderstanding now abonrt! tlie 
 position which I 'Olc0iiipy; I do not consider it to- 'be my flunctSlon 
 or my diity to take any farther piairt in tituese proioeediinigsi, unless 
 I am specifically requested by tlhia committee. The Senate bias 
 ordered this committee, the Senate has ordered this coanimittee ta 
 make an investigation. The responsibility of that imvestigaton 
 is upon this committee; I hame discharged all the reaplonsibilittjy 
 tliat I undertook; I haive neither the powera mot the emiolumients 
 of coimisel for the ooanmittee. And I, haring dilsichlarged that 
 duty, consider that thie irespomsiMiity is upon the shonldersi of t(h.e 
 ciommittee, and thlat the committee mnet taike theilr own ooiurse 
 in bearing that responsibility. If the committee think thJat 
 ^^'itness ouight to be cross-examined, they are ooanpetenib eithjeir to 
 cross-examine them or see that somebody does ctroiss-exiamitne 
 thiem. It is not my businesis. 
 
 The OhiairmjanL — This oomes a little late, Mr, Boot. 
 
 My. Boot. — I thought I made myself peipfectly olear at the 
 beginning of the afternoon. 
 
 The Chairman. — The first intimation the committee had of 
 your ,pOkSition was five or ten minutes ago; we examined quite a 
 number of witnesses before yon made the statement, and we cer- 
 tainly did not know that that wonild be yonr position; not hav- 
 ing any connsel to represent uis, we have taken up the investiga- 
 tion with the idea that eacli sidte wiasi to have counsel, and pre- 
 sumably that those connsel wonld carry thix>ugh the exami- 
 nation, 
 
 Mr. Badnes. — Our ftaiend, Mr. Boot, started in at tiiis investiga- 
 tion by saying that he was here to malce himself useful to the 
 committee, and he did not limit that remark to the time which 
 might be occupied in the examination of his client, Mr. Quigg, 
 and a few others, and in good faith, he was' required to continue 
 with the committee until this matter was finally closed. 
 
 The Chaiiman. — In the middle of a laWsuit, it would be diffi- 
 cult to get connsel into the case; if we had known froan the start 
 that you were only gcang to a certain point in this case, and that 
 you were mot going to cross-examine the witnesses on the other 
 side, why, we might have takeni a very different position; but 
 
300 
 
 we fcuew noitihiiag of that kind until a few minutes ago, antl it, 
 makes it very embanrassing for us. 
 
 ,MJr. Eotxt.— We consider that we have introduced evidence in 
 support o£ ihe staltiemeint in the Press artiide. 
 
 Senator Camtor.— Wihere evidence is given on the other side, , 
 we think you should croisis^exa,mJne the witnesses. 
 Mr,. Itooit.— That is f oe the oommittee to determine. 
 
 The Chairman.— We would be very glad to, have you oross- 
 examina; very glad; we worald have suggested' it a long tilme ago, 
 but I supposed that you would take the same course a® the other 
 side. 
 
 Mr. Eiooit. — But, m far m the duty wMcix I undertook is aou- 
 oerned, I regard tJiat as performed 
 
 Mr. Raines. — You were running away from an investigatioin 
 which you sltarted in a way which the committee does not under- 
 stand, and you were leaving the oommittee midway in their 
 labors without the services which yoni volunteered to afford them, 
 at the start, and whicih the committee had a right to rely upon 
 you to give ; it dtesn't seem to mie that clounsel should run away, 
 as he is noiw doing. 
 
 Mr. Boot. — That is not a fact, and counsel knoiws it isi not a 
 fact; I have perfoocmfed the entire duty which I undertoiok, and 1 
 stated to the committee that I was ready to give them any fur- 
 ther assistantce which tihey wished, and' I have remained here, 
 ready to croHs-examine, ilf the committee wished it; and I shall 
 stay as long as my other engagemenlts permit me. 
 
 The Ohairman. — Yes; we wonld like to have you cross-ex- 
 amine, Mr. Boot; I alwlays supposed that yon would, and your not- 
 doing so has seemied rather strange to the committee; we would 
 like to have yoiu croisisMgxamine tfhe witnesses, on any point that 
 you thiink neoesisary, and if you want to cross-examine any 
 witness who has beeni on the stand this afternoon, they may be 
 recalled; we wonld Eave pursued this course before, but sup- 
 poised that yon didn't care to cross-examine them; now. we 
 would be very glad indeed if you will do so 
 
 Mr. Boot. — Wihlaitl I said today was that T didn't care to 
 cros's-exaJmine unltess the committee wished it, and if the com- 
 mittee bad expressied a desire that I cross-exainine the wit- 
 nesses, I would have done so. 
 
 The Ohairman. — ^That was only a few minutes ago. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — The comimittee asked you if you wished to 
 examine. 
 
 The Ohiainman. — You reserved the examination of one of the 
 witnesses. 
 
 Mr. Bbioit — The witness refers specifically to certain state- 
 nitnla made by Mr. Quigg. 
 
301 
 
 Thie Cfhairmian. — Mr. Eaines called sonie witnesses out of 
 order, wlioin yoiu cross-exaimined. Now, we would like to have 
 you croias-examine the witnesses at amy point you see fit. 
 
 The committee then aidjoiuTiiied tmtil to-morrow morning, May 
 4, at 10 a. m. 
 
 New Yorlc, May 4, 1895. 
 
 The committee redonvened, pursuant to adjournment. 
 
 Presen* — Seoator O'Connor, chairman, and Senators Pound, 
 Mullin, Parker and Cantor. 
 
 Seniaftom O'Ctonnor. — We ace ready to j)roceed, gentlemen. 
 
 Mr. Eaines. — AU the cIoBe of the siession, yesterday afternoon 
 in your absence, Mr. Chairman, the question was pending 
 whetbier the representatives of The Press newsj)aper desired 
 to 01' wouM cross-examine the witnesses whoi were called yester- 
 day, and whom they allowed to leave the stanci without a cross 
 examination during tihe whole afternoon, and the question was 
 still pendiiing at the close of the session,' and the witnesses were 
 ordered' to return here and most of them are here; and I now 
 offer to recall to the witness stand any of the ofScers whto were 
 swoTu yesterday, for the purpose of cross-examination by tlie 
 counsel upon what we know as the other side. 
 
 I distinctly urge upon the committee the propriety of forcing 
 the counsel upon the other side to examine, at the expense of 
 the complainant, if they will, but to exauiine anyhow, because it 
 is the desiire of these Seniators, especially, and not less the desire 
 of the entire official systean of the fire department, that there 
 shall be no pretense at the close of this investigation that there 
 has been any omission of duty on the part of any counsel, or on 
 the panrt of the committee to get at the truth of this mattei-. 
 And, lest there should be such impntation thrown out in the 
 course otf the irresponsible attitude to which a certain news- 
 paper is liable perilodioally or spasmodically, I desire that cross- 
 examination shall be had; and it seems to me to be due not 
 only to thie Senators, but also to the officers of the Kre depart- 
 ment to distinctly refute the facts expressed or implied in the 
 article oomplainedi of. 
 
 Senator Mullin. — The committee decided last night, Mr. 
 Eaines, to ask Mr. Eoot to conduct the cross-examination, and 
 he consented to d0 so, and I supposed that matter was settled; 
 and if there are any witnesses that Mr. Root desires ro cross- 
 examine, I suppose that he will cross examine them to-day; but 
 just before the close yesterday I understood thai that was the 
 settlement between Mr. Eoot and the comaiittee. 
 
302 " 
 
 Senator (yCotniDoir. — Do yoiu wish to cross-examine now, Mr. 
 Boot? 
 
 Mr. Bloot. — I will asfc Mr. Beed a quieeitdioii. 
 
 Semator O'Connor. — Mr. Beeid, taike the witneiss stand. 
 
 Saanuel Eeed, being recalled for croiss-examinatiion, testified 
 as follows: 
 
 OroBsi-exaimination by Mr. Boot: 
 
 Mr. Boot. — I shfoiuld 'Siay tloi tflie coimimittee tbait I stoll not be 
 able to; tliart my otfeer enig)ageimJentsi are sncli thatt I will not be 
 able to attend upon the inyestigaitiioni alter to-day. The May 
 term of omr courts begins ou Moniday, and it will be absolutely 
 nitx>essary for me to take up thie trial of casies then. 
 
 Q. Mr. Eeed, you are the asisistainti foreman of one of the fire 
 companiies of tMs city? A. EIngine company No. 58. 
 
 Q. And is Foremani Zoim in that company? A.. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who are tihe other meni to whom you told that you bad to 
 pay money to get the x)!ffiaers' salaries iraoreaised besides Zorn? 
 A. To get the officersi' salaries inicreajsed'? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. A. I never told anybody- — the answer was not 
 (juite in that way. 
 
 Q. You testified bere yesterday that you told some mfn in your 
 company that you liad to pay somje amount of money? A. And 
 T sbould tell tbem. the same thing to-morrow, if they asked me ; I 
 said, " Yes; that I put up." 
 
 Q. Now, wait a moment, officer; won't you listen to my (pies- 
 tions and answ'er thiem? A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. You testified ihere yesterday that you told some of the men 
 in your company that you bad put up some amount of rarmey? 
 A. For tbe purpose of ■ — 
 
 Q. Wait a moment — did you not? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Very well; now whoi were the men to wbiom you told that? 
 A. Tt is an utter impossibility for me to' tell you all the men. 
 
 Q. Tell me some? A. Tt might have bepu all the men in the 
 eompany. 
 
 Q. Tell me somie of themi? A. Thiat I rnn't tell you. 
 
 Q. Can you tell me some of them? A. No, sir; unless you 
 mention the names'. 
 
 Q. T want you to mention tlie names? A. Well, I can't say. 
 
 Q. Do you rom'Pmbeir any member of your company to whom 
 you said that thing? A. No, sir; not any penson. 
 
 Q. Now, tell me wbnt yoiui said? A. T said, I bad to pay ^100. 
 
 Q. Is tbat all you said? A. T also said, on amotlier .wciision, 
 "Yes; I put up 175." 
 
303 
 
 Q. Now, we will taike Hbje flirat ocoasioini, wheni was that? x\. 
 Well, the eviden'oe of tJie mam tJnaU was om tlie stand should dis- 
 tir-ictly tell you who tiiartl waa 
 
 Q. Weil, caini yoiu tell me wlreu that was? A. I can't, sir; it 
 was uinlversal talk aroTind ttLe house that tiie offloens were to' pay 
 an amount to have the amendmeait: placed om the firemen, and 
 when I waB brought into any conversation with any of the la^n 
 in the house I icertainly said, " Yes; I put up; " and I would aay I 
 put up toi-morrow if they would ask me the saniie question, and 
 I would say it after I left this conirt-roiomi; I would say the same 
 thing. 
 
 Q. Wait a minute; I don't want to know what you would say 
 after you left thils dourt-room; you say that it wasi universal talk 
 aroimd the house that the officers were putting upi niomey to have 
 their salaries increased? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. When did that begin? A. I can't tell you, because I never 
 was interested in that portion of the bill ; never attended a, meet- 
 ing of officers, don't know what transpiired aiti the meeting, as a 
 general rule, I was an officer that mingled with the mien. 
 
 Q. So youi do' not know! when that matter first oame up? A. 
 No, sir; I can't say. 
 
 Q. You say you never attended a meeting of the officersi? A. 
 No, sir; never. 
 
 Q. So that you do not know when they had the matter under 
 diseueisioni? A. No, sir; I do not 
 
 Q. When did you hea.r that the officersf ma,tter had been under 
 discusision? A. That was on oir about thfe' month of March to the 
 best of my abiHity. 
 
 Q. Eariy in Manch? A. That I can't say, what portion of 
 March it was in. 
 
 Q. Well, what did you say about the officer's having that under 
 discussion? A. I never heard of the officers having that under 
 discussion only from the men in company quairtens, which is the 
 firemen. 
 
 Q, Well, what did they tell you about the officers ha,ving it 
 under disouRsion? A. Ttiey said^: "People said there was $30 to 
 $45 put up by offlcers; " it was tbem: people that told the amount 
 of money that aictually was tOi be raised, when I said, "Why, I 
 gave flOO." 
 
 Q. You have said that you told them you had put up money^ 
 for this puTpoise, or forr what puTpose is that customary, or, well, 
 for whatever purpoises they mentioned? A. I told them;, "Yes; 
 I put up, and would put up tb-mon'ow" for the welfatre and 
 benefit of our organfeataba. ' 
 
304 
 
 Q. Yes, sir; yoai liave testified that yon told tihem tbat you had 
 put up', ais youi lia,ve said, iln' oirdfer that you might iput it in theilr 
 boot? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In the large book? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. In which they kept? A. In which they kept their debitsi 
 on the officer's. 
 
 Q. In , which they kept the debits of the officers? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, tell me a little abouit that book? A. I dou't knoiwi 
 anything ait aill aboiuit it. 
 
 Q. Well, then, why did you mentiiom it? A. Because you can't 
 make a move nor utter a word throughout the house since thiils 
 affair has been talked over but what they have yoiuu down for 
 everything that you my, and every mioive that you make. 
 
 Q. Well, you sai'd what youi said im the expeota.tioii that it 
 would come into that large book? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you — what did you understand that book to be kept 
 for? A. For the purpose of keeping debits ou the officers. 
 
 Q. Where did you expect the book toi be kept? A. Where 
 there was a meeting of lie organizatiou. 
 
 Q. And you underBtand i* was a book kept foon the benefit of 
 the organization? A. What they called the Mutual Benevolent 
 Order of Fiiremen. 
 
 Q. It was not a book kept for your company alone, but for 
 the benefit of the whole body of firemen? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And youi said that you had to pay, on the expectation that 
 it would go into their large book? A. Yes, sir; for them to caiTy 
 the story to their organization to have som,ething to talk about. 
 
 Q. Well, you understood them that they believed what you 
 said ? A. I can't say whether they did or not. 
 
 Q. I didn't ask youi whether they did or not? A. Well, I — 
 
 Q. Wait a moment; I asik you what you' understood? A. What 
 I said? 
 
 Q. Yes. A. So that they could take and carry that word. 
 
 Q. Did you expect they would believe what you said? A. I 
 expected, certainly, that they would believe and tell one another, 
 which appeared through their evidence here on this stand. 
 
 Q. Yes, sir; then you made the statement, expecting and intend- 
 ing thtit they would believe it? A. ISTo', sir; they were to taike 
 their own constrarlion in thnt respect. 
 
 Q. Well, haven't you just said that yon expected they would 
 believe it? A. That thiey would carry it to their organization; 
 that is my words, counsel. 
 
 Q. Well, didn't you expect them to believe? A. Well, I am 
 not suipposed to knohiv what they believed. 
 
305 
 
 Q. Well, I want to know what you expected them to believe? 
 A. Just as I told you, that they would carry it to their organi- 
 zation. 
 
 Q. Just as you told me; that they would carry it to their 
 organizatioiui? A. Well, in the answen to that question I can't 
 say what they would believe. 
 
 Q. Lieutenant, yoa don't quite get at my question; T am rot 
 asking you what they would believe; I am only asking for the 
 operation of your mimd at the time? A. My mind at the time 
 was — -'"^^ 
 
 Q. Yes; whait did yoiui expect them to believe — what you said? 
 A. As I told you', I was joking with the men. 
 
 Q. Please aairawer my question (question repeatedl? A. What- 
 ever they took out of it. 
 
 Q. You have testified here that you expected the men to be- 
 lieve what you siaid; was that true? A.. Whatever they woiild 
 take out of — 
 
 Q. Was it true that you expected them to believe what you 
 said? A. 1 cam't say that, whether! they would believe what I 
 said or not. 
 
 Q. Well, I am. not asking you that; I am asking you whether 
 it is true? A. Well — 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — For what purpose did yon tell ihe men 
 that you had paid flOO? A. Fon the joke; to have them carry 
 it to the oirgaaiizatioln'. 
 
 Q. Well, did you; intend' them to belicA'^e it? A. Yes, sir; 
 certainly, as a joke. ( 
 
 Q. To believe it as a joke? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, you knew tharti these rumors existed in the depart- 
 ment? A. Yes, sir. ' 
 
 Q. And you knew that the firemen, the men, believed them? 
 A. Yes, sir; certainly; they were thoroughly interested in their 
 own belief in that' matter. 
 
 Q. Well, you knew this, that the firemen believed those rumors 
 to be true? A. I cam't say that. Senator, because I have never 
 asked a man, any present, whether they actually believed it 
 or not. ' 
 
 Q. Well, didn't you know that your joking in that way was 
 very much calculated to strengthien the belief of the firemen? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. Did you think it was ai joke to h.ive the entix-e fire depart- 
 ment, the entire uniformed fire departi'ient, to believe you had 
 
 F. 39 
 
306 
 
 oontributefl to a cormjrtion fund to get the officers' salaries in- 
 creased? A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Well, why did you tell them you had contributed? A. That 
 was in our own conipp,ny's headquarters, not the entire fire 
 department 
 
 Q. You haye testified that yom expected those men to carry 
 that information to tote put into the large book? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Kept for the benefit of all the firemen; now, I ask you if 
 you thought it was a joke to have the uien of your company 
 believe yora had contributed to a corruption fund to get th« 
 salaries ol the offtoers itacreased? A, I told them that as a joke. 
 
 Q. Did you think it was a joke to have them believe that? 
 A. I did. 
 
 Q. Yes? A. Yes, sir; I did think it a joke. 
 
 Q. Do you regiard thfei eontributiomi of money to bribe legis- 
 lators an honorable transaiction? A. I do not 
 
 Q. Do yon regard it 'as an honlest transactiom? A. I dornot 
 
 Q. Don't you regard it as a dfegraceful tnamsiaiction? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Then I ask yofui again^ would you thiink it was a joke if all 
 the men under yonr command believed! you had been guilty of 
 forgery? A. I would not think tituat wais a jok^ bteicause T could 
 not be guilty of it 
 
 Q. Would yon believe it wais a joke if all thle mem under your 
 command believed you had beeni guilty of thlefti? A. I would rot 
 think it was a joke. 
 
 Q. Wonld yon think it was a joke if all the meni under your 
 command believed you ihad been guilty of perjniPy? A. T would 
 not think it a joke. 
 
 Q. No? — do yon think it a joke that all the meni iBn yonr com- 
 mand believed you had bfeen guilty of contributiinig to a fund for 
 bribery? A. I think iit wajs a joke. 
 
 Q. You think that was a joke? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Redirect examinatiora by Mr. Bainies: 
 
 . Q. Well, you varied your jokimg at different timeSi by stating 
 different amounts? A. Certainly I did. 
 
 Q. As being paid by you? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. To what extent wais thisi joking on all soirbs of subjects 
 between youi and all the men there? A. Oh, it was a general 
 universal talk thirouighout the house when this thing was actually 
 spoken of abotut some aJmendment, which I Knew nothing at all 
 about; 'because I have never since I have been: ini the fire depart- 
 ment, and that is going on 20 years now, I have never mSmgled 
 politically or siociaily In any matter at all, only as being a mem- 
 
307 
 
 ber of Hie officers' assoiciatioin; siending my money widiout ever 
 going to a meeting. 
 
 Q. Yes. A. Anid, of oonrse, in joking with, tlie men I was con- 
 tinnially, more or less, with the mjem; in their society and company 
 in the quarters, anjd I used to carry a joke along just to see how 
 they would act In the matter and bring them out. " 
 
 Q. And this wais one line of joking — and I suppose there were 
 others? A. Yes, sir; but the evidence which was placed on the 
 stand was a false evidence in respect to the days and dates. 
 
 Q. Yes; becaiuse you say that the men were not on duty -n the 
 2d of Mairichi? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. That testified to the conversiation? A. No, sir; a man that 
 testified was off for 24 hours amd never arrived in ciompamy 
 headquairtere until Sunday morning at 8 o'cloick. 
 
 Recrosis-examliaQatioiii by Mr. Eooit!: 
 
 Q. You have been exaimlninig this subject pretty close, haven't 
 . you? A. Noitihimg more than 'the compiainy journal. 
 
 Q. Where did you leaJ-n that somebody had tesitifled to the 
 2d of March? A. On last Saturday. 
 
 Q. How did you] learn that? A. Fireman Thompson was on the 
 stamid. 
 
 Q. You were here when FireaLan Thompson was on the stand? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And heard: his testimony? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, was he ib the house on the 3d of Mardh? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You say that you luever held any obnversation; with Mm on 
 the 3d of March? A. I never held any ciomvepsiatiom with 
 FiretniaQ Thompson above the otheP mieni ihi the house. 
 
 Q. You say that you did not have a conversation in his 
 presence on the 3d of Mai^hi? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You swear you dSidn't? A. No, sir; I swear I did not. 
 
 Q. Then you had no conversationJ on the 3d of March in the 
 presence of Fireman Thompson? A. On the 3d of March? 
 
 Q. Yes. A. That was the time on the Sunday afternoon when 
 this convensiation Was brought up on the top floor. 
 
 Q. What conver'sation do you now: refer to? A. This is the 
 conversation: "I heard that you fellows were soiaked pretty 
 heavy; " and I saSid, "Yes; I was soaked a hundred." 
 
 Q."W'ell, how db you now rememiber juBt when' this convei^a- 
 tion took place when youi could no* fix it at all before? A. I 
 cmild not fix the 2d of March, as you stated, because the man 
 was off for 24 hours; the 3d day of March was on: a Sunday that 
 the conversation] tolok place on th.^ top floor of tihie compamy heaid- 
 quarters. 
 
308 
 
 Q. Who waa present? A. Well, I could niat say, OoumBelor; 
 there might have been four, or there might hare been- five, or 
 there might have been two or three. * 
 
 Q. I asked you 15 minuteai ago when this oanverBatioin t<x)k 
 place, and _you told me you could not! give mie amy ideia? A. I 
 could not; only on the 3d of March, as you irecollect 
 
 Q. Your memory is refreshed notw; you remem,ber better than 
 you did then; still, you told me a few minutes ago that you coidd 
 not give me any idea? A. It was a universal subject of coni- 
 versaltion daily. 
 
 Q. ^^ery well; now, when did it begin? A. Well, that is the 
 first I ever heard anybody speaking of it, was on the 3d. 
 
 Q. Was the 3d' of MaiPch the first time yon heard anybody 
 speali of it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That was uew to you then ? A. Yes, isir. 
 
 Q. The subject first came up them? A Yes, sair. 
 
 Q. Were you not more thau unusually surprised at words and 
 oonversatioms bet\\^eeu different men in the engine-houise? A. 
 They were not ispeaking toi mte. 
 
 Q. Well, som,e of the convensatioui was addresised to you, wasn't 
 it? A. Noi sir; not any person. 
 
 Q. They say a great many things to you? A. They had said 
 a great many things to me and I to them. 
 
 Q- Did they siay sLnything to you ou this subject? A. On) 
 \ii'hat subject? 
 
 Q. What subject are you talking about? A. That is what I 
 want to get at. 
 
 Q. Well, we will see if we cam't doi it together. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — Mr. Root is ai^guing and wants information. 
 
 Mr. Root. — What was the subject of these conversations np- 
 srtairs on the 3d of March ou the oeoasion you have referred to in 
 your testimony? A. The subject and nothing more than the 
 subject was principally this: "I say, you fellows has got in on 
 us and you are going toi pay well for it;" I said: "Yes; T put 
 up 100." 
 
 Q. Now that remark, "I see you fellows has. got in on us," 
 was addressed to you, was it? A. It was princi'pally to me. 
 
 Q. And "you felloiws" meant you and' the other officers? AJ. 
 Certainly. 
 
 Q. Who Addresised that remark toi you? A. I couldn't say. 
 
 Q. Was it one — wM'ch. one of the firemen — was it one of the 
 firemen? A. One of the firemen. 
 
 Q. Hoiw many firemen were there present upstairs' on thajt 
 oocaision? A. There wais three or four. 
 
 Q. Were there any other officers preseniti? A- No, Bir. 
 
309 
 
 Q;. Was tliere any other person present besides you amd those 
 three or fouT firemen? A. Yes, silr. 
 
 Q. Was this remark, " I see you fellows hajs got in on us," the 
 first remark made to you ou the subject; of salairy bOl or the 
 attempt to pass a saliairy bill ? A. Salajy bill — the word salairy 
 was never used. 
 
 Q. Was that the first remark upon that subject? A. I don't 
 remember. 
 
 Q. Had you eYem before that any suggestion that the oflflcers 
 were attemptiaig to get their salaries increased; or were raising 
 or trying to raise a fund for that purpose? A. 'So, sir. 
 
 Q. That was the first suggestion or intimation that you had 
 on that occasion? A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And when the remark was made, "I see you fellows have 
 got in ou this and you are going to pay well for it;" you said, 
 "Yes; I put up a hundred?" A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was any other renuirk made to you on that subject before 
 jou said, "Yes; I put up a hundred?" A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. Veiy well; then why have you told us that you said you 
 put up a hundred, because there was a rumor in the house that 
 the oflacers had put up $45 and $30? A. Because I thought I 
 would speak of $100 instead of $45 and $30; the $45 and |30 
 T^'as mentioned by nobody but the firemeni themselves in person ; 
 they said that they had that down so fine in their organization 
 that they knew the officers were thinking of putting up. 
 
 Q. And that is why you said $100? A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, you have just sworn to me that you never heard auy 
 reiunr];s upon this subject before you said you put up $100, except 
 the remark, "I see you fellows has got in on this and are going 
 to pay well for it?" A. That was on the 3d of March, previous 
 to that never ai word was uttered. 
 
 Q. Then you had not never heard of this PO and $45 before 
 you made that remark? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then how did the $30 and $45 lead to your making that 
 remark that you had put up $100? A. That was an after con- 
 sddei'ation, it was not previous to my making the contribution 
 of $100. • ' 
 
 Q. How did you happen to come to make the remark that you 
 put up $100? A. I thought it would swell their headH 
 
 Q. You thought $100 wouldl swell their heads better than 
 any other figure? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You' them made that remark the instant it was told you? 
 A. Yes, sir; as soon as it was heard. 
 
 Q. You thee got the idea that they would take it to the order 
 and put it on the big book? A. Yes, sir. 
 
310 
 
 y. And then you thought it would be put in the big book' 
 A. jyjost surely, 
 
 Q. Did you ask them any questions aboiut whiart; they meant by 
 saying, -'lou fellows liave got well in on this, amd have got to 
 pay well for iit," before you said, "Yes; I put up $100?" A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q- You knew perfectly well what they meant? A. I certainly 
 knew from the newspapers what they were trying to get at. 
 
 Q. Oh, you had seen something about this in the newspapers? 
 A. That was after; no, siir; not before. 
 
 Q. Well, how cotuld you umderstamd what they were trying to 
 get at by something which youi saw in the newspapers after- 
 ward? A. BecauBe th.e men, not the offieers^ the men distinctly 
 stated with one anothlen in the house in my presemoe that the 
 amendment was to be placed lom the bill, and that it was from 
 the ofllcers, which I knew nothitnig at all about, and th.ey tried 
 to draw me out, and I observed I would put up $100. 
 
 Q. Well, I ask you again; I ask you if you understood them 
 when they said, " You fellows has got in well on this, and you 
 are going to pay well for it; " and you said yoiu had readi from 
 newspaper reports, and I asked if yoiu ever heard anythong like 
 this conversation before the 3d of March', and you said, "No; 
 not until afterward; " is that correct? AL That is correct. 
 
 Q. Now, I ask you 'how sieieing siomiething in the newspapers 
 after the 3d roould give you information as to what was talcing 
 place on the 3d of Mardh- — ^ Yoiu are not a prophet, are vou? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Kainesi: 
 
 Q. This condition of feeling which youi Sipeak of betv/een the 
 men and the officers, which led the mien! tio keep tabs on the 
 officers, is that extensive — throiuighout! the city? A'. Of late 
 days; yes, sir; in every company in thte city. 
 
 Q. Don't you think it would be better for the officers and men 
 to act together? A. Yes., sir; of course. 
 
 'Mir. Baines. — Very well. 
 
 Captain Freel. — Now, may I be peirmitted tio ask the witness a 
 question? 
 
 Senajtor O'Oonor. — Noi; oh, noi; we biave had enough of this, I 
 think. What is the question you want to ask him? The witness 
 admits that 'he did say it, and now siays he siaid it as a joike; that 
 is all the committee wantsi toi know. 
 
 Captain Freel. — I just want to get that fact before the com- 
 mittee clearly, that he was joking. My reputation as well as 
 that of every other officer of the department isi involved. I 
 
311) 
 
 merely want to asls: him if hie realizes that in joking he has 
 inTolved the reputation of every officer in the department. Aint 
 yon sorry that yon joked about it? 
 
 Witness. — I am very sorry, indeed. . It was a mistake on my 
 part. I never thought it would go this far. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Well, that is all. The question has simply 
 narrowed down to thiis witnessi' statement about the tiaising of 
 the money, and the witness admits that he made this statement. 
 As to whether the committee will believe his expianation or not; 
 that is the questi'on as It has narrowed doiwn, as far as his 
 admission goes. 
 
 Mr. Boot. — I would merely ask, if carrying out my arrange- 
 ment with the committee, I could ask Mr. Horam «ome questions 
 about his little book? 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Oh!, yes; eertainly. We will recall Mr. 
 Horan or any other witness that yon desire to question. 
 
 Patrick Horan, a witness, beiimg reoalled for cross-examination, 
 testified as followsi: 
 
 'Groas-examination by Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. Mr. Horan, let me see — yon 'are assistant f oiremian of what 
 company? A. Engine, ZSTa 25. 
 
 Q. Are you a joker? A. JSTo-, sir; I anu not. 
 
 Q. Where is your little book? A. I don't know; I gave it to 
 the committee here yesterday. 
 
 Q. This book just handed to me is marked Exhibit A for identi- 
 floation; is this book, which is marked Exhibit A for identifica- 
 tion, the book whidh yon were carrying and using during the 
 mooatiis of February and March of this year? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 ■Q. And the only book? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The only memoirandum book? A. Ye«, sir. 
 
 Q. How long had you hlaid that book? A. Probably nine months 
 or a year; I oan't say exactly how long. 
 
 Q. For what did you use it? A. I used it for all purposes; 
 for putting down chimney fires; for putting downl still alarms; 
 for taking the numibers of buildings at fires^ and my domestic 
 affairs, so mnich as I paid out during the month, and! every-tihing 
 else. 
 
 Q. Well, how frequently? A. Very often. 
 
 Q. Did you make entries in it? A. Some times; probably once 
 in two or three days, and so on like that. 
 
 Q. I find a card in this book, Mr. Hdran, I will put it in the 
 little pocket, in order that it may not be lost; every day or two 
 you made an entry? A. Yes, sir; every day or two, whenever 
 I had OGoasion to. 
 
312 
 
 Q. And this is the book, is it? A. Yos, sir; that is the book. 
 
 Q. The lireman Davis — Fireman Campbell; I believe — this 
 Fireman Campbell — do you happen to know that Fireman 
 Coiiboy also found it? . A- No, sirj I didn't know anytliiug 
 about it at the time. 
 
 Q. Well, Fireman Campbell — and you said something about 
 Fireman Davis, didn't you? A. Yes, sir; I said about Fireman 
 Davis; I took it out of Davis' hands. Engineer Davis, rather. 
 
 Q. Yes; Engineer Davis? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where was he when you took it out of his hand? A. Right 
 standing where it was found in the back of the house. 
 
 Q. Near the stairs? A. No, sir; in the back of the house 
 near the water-closet. 
 
 Q. Where was you? A. Standing right there, blackening my 
 shoes: probably two or three fc«t away. 
 
 Q. And Ilreman Campbell was there also? A. Yes, sir; he 
 was cleaning a horse right down there. 
 
 Q. What first called your attention to the fact that one of 
 these firemen had your book in his hand? A. Well, I heard 
 Campbell ask Davis, who owned the book, and I turned around — 
 I was blackening my shoes at the blackening box -^ and I 
 turned around and saw the book in his hand, and I says to him, 
 " Joe, I will take care of that; it belongisi to me." 
 
 Q. And he gave it to you? A. Yes, sir; he gave it to me. 
 
 Q. What did you do with it? A. I put it right in my pocket 
 where it came out of. 
 
 Q. Now, how soon aftein that did you throw the book on the 
 table? A. Probably — 
 
 Q. And tell the men that they could look at it? A. Probably 
 the next night or the next day whte^n I heaird they were joking 
 about it; I could not say exactiy when; to the best of my knowl- 
 edge it may be that afternoon or the next nilght. 
 
 Q. You did 'that when you heard they said it was an assess- 
 ment book, didn't you? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or a collection book? A. Yes, sir; I done that when they 
 said it was a collection book. 
 
 Q. You have been a foreman for a long time? A. Going on 
 15 years. 
 
 Q. And will you tell me, whether it is customary among thte 
 officers of the fire department to carry memorandum books? 
 A. Yes, sir; it is customary. 
 
 Q. Books in which they make memoranda relating to their 
 duties? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At fires? A- Yes^ sir. 
 
313 
 
 Q. Memoranda from which they mate up theii" reports after 
 they get back to the engine-house? A. That is correcit. 
 
 Q. Is that book of the kind ordinarily used? A. I don't 
 know, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, they use small memorandum books? A. Yes, sir; I 
 believe so. 
 
 Q. Small enough to carry in their pockets? A. Well, yes; 1 
 always carried that in. my pocket. 
 
 Q. Well, as fair as your observation goeisi do the other officers 
 carry small memorandum books ini their pockets? A I could 
 not say. 
 
 Q. You had always done so? A I carried always a book lilie 
 that. 
 
 Q. And you made no aonceaiment of tihe fact? A No, sir; 
 none at all. 
 
 Q. You had 'been in the habit of taking it out and making 
 memoranda in it before the men, ofr rather, in their presience, 
 hadn't you? A. Well, no, sir; whait I meami to say is, that! I 
 used to take it out ait a flre and makel a memoirandum of the 
 number of the building and the side of the street it was on, and 
 all like that, and tear it out and give it to the captain. 
 
 Q. Well, what wats there, so fai? as you know, to lead the men to. 
 think that this book was anything different from the oirdinary 
 memorandum book ciarried by the offiaers of the' department? 
 A. I don't kniow, sir; I don't know as there was anything to lead 
 them to think different. 
 
 Qv What was there, as far as you know, toi lead tihemi toi think 
 that this was a ooll'ecition. hook? A. I don't know; I cooJld not 
 say. 
 
 Q. Well, somethiinig did? A. I don't knoiw what it was. 
 
 Q. Well, did you aisk them? A. 'No, sir; I did not. 
 
 Q. Well, why then did you throw out this book and tell them 
 they could look at it? A. Well, becauise they picked it upi and 
 they said it was a icoilection book. 
 
 Q. Well, did you asik them 'why they said it was a collectittn 
 book? A. No, sir; I did nOtl; I had noi conversaitiom) with them 
 at all. 
 
 Q. Did yO'Ui halve no curdosity at ail to know why they said it 
 was a collection book? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. What did j'om think they meant when they siaid it was a 
 collection book? A. I didn't know what th.ey meant at the timie; 
 it was afterwards I heaird about it. 
 
 Q. When was this"; jusit Avhen was the time? A. I cotuld not 
 exactly sitate, sir. 
 
 F. 40 
 
314 
 
 Q. You oould not exactly state? A. No, sir; I couldi mot tell 
 you wluat day they found it, or wliat diay I k«iti it 
 
 Q. You say, that wiheiii the men, said this was a aolleotion book 
 you didn^t know what they meant? A. jSToi, sir. 
 
 Q. But you afterwards found out? A. Afterwards: \^hen) I 
 heard the joking about itihe honiise, and I said, "Here isi the 
 book, if you want to see it." 
 
 Q. You say you afterwards found out what they mieiamiti wiien 
 they siaid it was a ooileotian book? A. Yes'> sir. 
 
 Q. When did you find that out? A. Probably the next day 
 afterwards — I wont be sure; probably the next day; afterwards 
 I went — after the book was picked up — I was on my way down 
 to 11 truck bonse, and when I cleaned my sihoies! I put on my 
 coat, and went dotwni to the honse and that is' the time 1 iheiard 
 abont it 
 
 Q. And hiow sooni did you ooane ba;ck from 11 truck bonsie? 
 A. Well, I went to dinner, I went to my oiwnl ditamer, and about 
 five or 10 minutes passed when I got back toi the engiaiie^hoiusa 
 
 Q. And bow soon after that did yonii hear the meni called this 
 a coilectiora: book? A. Well, I didn't (hear anything rigbt after 
 that, becaiu&e I went and sat rilgbt in the office, and looked oiver 
 the paper and one thiing or another, and the next thing I 'heard 
 was — was Engineer Eegan — I believe that I Ijieard that he was 
 down at the engiine-blouse at the timle, abloiut a week afterwards. 
 
 Q. Well, now go back to the time of this boiok being found and 
 the time of your throwing it out and letting the meni hare a l»ok 
 at it, wihich you say was probably the next diay? A. I say, yes; 
 probably it might haivie been the next day. 
 
 Q. And yoiu' bad told me tiiaf you did not know what tbey 
 meant when they said it was a collection book, but you after- 
 ward found out; now, then, with reference to your throwing 
 out the book and telling the men they oould look at it, was it 
 that youi found out wh'at they meant when they said it was a 
 collection book? A. Well — 
 
 Q. Was it before or after you tbrew it out? A. Before I thi*ew 
 it out; no, no, sir; I threw tbe book out that afternoon oir tbe 
 next aftemoon; I ain't isture which now; tbrew it on the table. 
 
 Q. Well, was it befone or after you threw it on tbe table that 
 you Wad learned what the men meant when they said it was a 
 collection book? A. I can't answer that question now; let me 
 see. 
 
 Q. Well, why did you throw tlhe book out on the table and 
 tell the men they could look at it? A. Because I wanted them 
 to see there was nothing in it; that there was nothing of a 
 collection or anything else. 
 
31B 
 
 Q. And did you throw ^ out because yoai wanted to let them 
 see there was nothing in it relalting to oollectdons? A- Yes^ sir; 
 that was the reason I threw it out. 
 
 Q. And had you learned before yoiui did that what your men 
 nieamt when they said it was a collection book? A. No, sir; I 
 had not learned it. 
 
 Q. Do you mean that you did not know at the time you threw 
 the book out because jou wanted them to sec there was nothing 
 in it relating to collections, that you didnt know what they 
 meant by sayiiing it was a collection book? A. That is what I 
 irieao. \ 
 
 Q. Didn't you inquire what they mtant? A. :No, sir; I didn't 
 have any oonyersation with none of the men nt all. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to Say that the men in your station-house 
 said, and it was common talk in your station house that this 
 book was a collection book? A- No, sir. 
 
 Q. Yoiu' haye testified that the men said it was a collectiooa 
 book? A. Well, I heard the men say, two or three of the mem, 
 in a joking way. ' 
 
 Q. Very well; and you threw the book out to them and told 
 them they could look at it, because you wanted them to see 
 there was nothing in it relating to coillections, as you have 
 testified? A. Yes, sir- 
 
 Q. Do you mean to tell this committee that' you did that 
 wiliiout Iniowing or asking what they meant by saying it was 
 a coUedtion book? A. No, sir; I — repeat that question, please? 
 
 Q. (Question repeatedii) A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did jpia think they meant by a collection book? A. 
 
 I- I 
 
 Mr. Raines. — Hasn't this question been turned over and over? 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — I think it is all right, Mr. Raines, on the 
 witness' testimony. 
 
 Mr. Saines. — All right; I don't object to it unless it is a 
 waste of time 
 
 Mr. Eioot. — Well, counsel is not so desirous of cross-examina- 
 tion now as he was yesterday. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Well, go on. 
 
 The Witness. — I heard the men talking and joking that way ; 
 T could' not call to my recollection who said so or anything. They 
 were all taJklhg about it upstairs. 
 
 By Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. The question put to you now is, what you thought they 
 meant by saying that this book of yours was a collection book? 
 A. What they thought I meant? 
 
316 
 
 Senlatoip O'Conmor. — No; wliiat yoii tliouj?lit ttey meant. 
 A. Well, I dcm't know what they thougM I meant or wba"- 
 they meant 
 
 By Mr. Eoo*: 
 
 Q. Can you give us no idea of what you thought they meant 
 when they said this was a collection book and you threw it 
 out 'on the table? A. Yes, sir; I think they meant when they 
 said it was a collection book that I was the collectoc for the 
 battalion. 
 
 Q. What did you think they meant — that you were a col- 
 lector of what? A. I don't know, unless it was the baittalion. 
 
 By Senator O'CJonnor: 
 
 Q. Collector for what? A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. Well, then, why should you have thrown them your book 
 if you didn't know anything about the coilleotion that they; 
 referred to; why should you have thrown them' your private 
 memorandum-book for examinatioin? A. Well, becatise they said 
 it was a collection book. 
 
 Q. Well, if you didn't underatamd what the collection waa 
 about or -for, how did it concern you toi siiibmit youa- private 
 memorandum-book for their examiu'ation? A. Well, I d(m't 
 know how it did, except to make sure. 
 
 Q. Make sure of what? A. I can't say, sir. 
 
 Q. You can't say? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. What is your battalion? A. The sixth. 
 
 Q. Well, the directors for the officers' association are the ooi- 
 lectors for the battalion, are they not? A. Yes, sir, 
 
 Q. And Timothy Aheam is the collector for youTi disitrict, is 
 he not? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The regularly appointed collector? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you think that the men meant that you had super- 
 seded Aheam? A. No, sir; I thought they meant that I was 
 collector. 
 
 Q. That you had taken Aheaim's place? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. And you thought it was necessary for you to submit your 
 private miemorandum book to them in order to prove that you; 
 hadn't been elected a director of the officers^ association of the 
 sixth battalion, in the place of Timiothy Aheam? A. Noi, sir; 
 I did not. 
 
317 
 
 Q. You did not? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Tlien that was not why you isiubmitted the book for exami- 
 nation? A. No, sip; the reason wiiy I submitted tlie book to 
 them was to show them that any statem,ent they made aboulj 
 the book, that the whole thing was there. 
 
 Q. Well, was it not toi sjhow them that there was not in it any 
 colleotion of moneys to' get the officers' salaries increased? Ay 
 I don't know anything about that. 
 
 Q. Waism't ' that why you threw the book out? A. No, sojp; 
 it was not. 
 
 Q. Wasn't that what you understood they meani when they 
 said it was a oollectilon book? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have any understanding before that of what they 
 meant? A. No, sir; only the collection book; that is all. 
 
 Q. What kind of a collection book did you think they meant? 
 A. Well, I don't know what toi tMnk. 
 
 Q. Well, what did you think — I didn't ask you for now? A. 
 There was no talk about anything at the time, only they saidi 
 it was a oollectiom book. 
 
 Q. And you never thougfit of wtat kind of collection book 
 they meant? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And never asked? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. And nobody suggested it to' you? A. No^ sir. 
 
 Q. And you didn't think it had anything tO' do, when tliey 
 called it a collection book, with the raising of money for legis- 
 lation in Albany? A. No, sir; I had other business in that book; 
 my piiyatef and domestic business. 
 
 Senattoir O'Ootnnor. — Well, that isi just the point. Now the 
 oiuestion comesi right up here, why you should have submitted 
 your private business tO' a lot of outsiders not knowing what 
 th'e wo'Pd "collection" referred to^, and never supposing that it 
 was connected with amy corrupt or wrong transaction; we are 
 trj'ing to get a reasonable explanation of wh.y you should have 
 sublmitted to the exjaimuiatilon of outsidertei your pirivate affairs? 
 A. As I said before, I tore the leaves out aiccordtng aS I used 
 themi; I tore the leaves' out of the book; ilt Boilghtl hiave been — 
 
 Q. You don't seew to coanlpreihend the question? A. Y'es, sir. 
 
 Q. You pretend to say that you did not know — you pretend to 
 say that you understooidi that they had charged you with beang 
 the collector? A. Yes^ sir. . 
 
 Q. And that youir book had the evidlenlce of that fact in it? A. 
 I understood that iit wais ai joke amongst them: 
 
 Q. Now you say also thattl you didn/t understand what thiey 
 referred to wh.en tbey said you were a collector? A. No, sir. 
 
ai8 
 
 Q. And tliat your book oantaiiiied evldemce of the collections of 
 sums of mooQey? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And now we want some neasiomabte expilanaition of why you 
 should haive smbmiitted your pirivaite affairs toi thieir inspection? 
 A. Well, sir, I could notl give you any expianationi; only threw the 
 booik out 
 
 By Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. Youi say that you tore the leaives out as you wanted! them; 
 whien did you teiar these leav^es out (indilcatiing) ? A. Well, that 
 I could mot say; I could noit siSy that. 
 
 Q. Did you tear it out oni tihait day? A. 'No, sir. 
 
 Q. Hoiw do you know yoiu did not? A. I don^t kniolw; I could 
 not say wtaen I tore it out. 
 
 Q. Well,, if you doi not know, wihy did you say you did no*? 
 A. I oan't tell you anything about it, I tore thiem oujt as iiiey 
 were filled up. 
 
 Q. Well, I asik you if you tore that slip! out on; that day the 
 book was found? A. No, sir; I cduid not tell you. 
 
 Q. Well, whien dM you) tear it ouit? A I could not tell you, 
 sir; I could not tell you. 
 
 Q. Can you give me any idea of wihen you toire itti out? A. Ifo, 
 sir; I could not; I could not!; tJiJe book I hlave had nine months, or 
 a year; I aint sure which, and I tore out leaves according as; they 
 became filled. 
 
 Q. How often' didi you tear out leaives? A. Probably once in 
 three diays or once in a month, or anything like that. 
 
 Q. Well, that is rathar indefinite — once in three daysi or onice 
 a month? A. Op whenever — 
 
 Q. Did yon tear out leaves once in three days? A. Probably I 
 did ; I could not say. 
 
 Q. Well, can't you give us any ideai? A. No^, sihr; I oan: not. 
 
 Q. Did you tear thiemi out onlce a week? A. Prdbalbly I did); I 
 could not say. 
 
 Q. Well, I want your recollection a;bout it? A. Well, I could 
 not say. 
 
 Q. I don't know anythinig abtout it, and it was your book, and 
 you had it and now I wanit to know? A. Well, I can't siay how 
 often I did tear thieml out:. 
 
 Q. Well, Vhat is your West' reiooHectSoin. as to how often^ you tore 
 when they became full. 
 
 Q. Well, whiait is our best recoUeotibn as to how often you tore 
 leaves out of iJiie boiok? A, Well, T could nbt say. 
 
3.19 
 
 Q. Well, you could give us some idea; I want it and I am 
 going to stick to it tmtil I get it, or tihe committee stops me ; I 
 want yoiu to give this committee yoiur 'btest reoollectiom as toi how 
 often, during thiose nine months, yoiui tore leaves out of this 
 book? A. Sometimies I would tear out two or three a, day, 
 according as they woiuld be filled; sometimes every two or three 
 days, and sometimes onice a moooith; that is the uiearest I can get 
 to it. 
 
 Q. Well, very well; Kotw often during that nine months did 
 you tear otit two or three leaves a day? A Well, not very often 
 I don't think. ' j 
 
 Q. Well, ho(w often? A. Well, not very often. 
 
 Q. Well, I know that, yoiu' haive said that; how often? A. Well, 
 I can't tell that. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Well, what do you mean by the word 
 "very, very often?" A. Well, not very often, not oftener than 
 was more than necessary. 
 
 By Mr. Root: ' 
 
 Q. Well, not very often, mot oftener than was more than 
 necessary? A. Yes, sir. ] 
 
 Q. Well, hbw often was it necessary? A. Well, it might have 
 been a conple of timies a month that I tore tbem out. 
 
 Q. Ttknow that. 
 
 Senlator O'Connor. — All that he is calling for is your recol- 
 lection. What is your present recollection of the fact? 
 
 By Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. Yolu know how yon used this book, Horan, it was your 
 book? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q And I want youir' best recollection as to how many times 
 during the nine months yon oarriod this book you tore two, or 
 three or fonr leaves ou* of it in a single day? A. Probably 
 once in three days, and it might have been two or three in 
 one day. 
 
 Q. Well, how many times did you take out Iavo or three 
 leaves in a day; 20 iaicaes^ 100 times? A. No, sir; I don't think 
 I did. 
 
 Q. Fifteen times? A. Probably one in two or three days. 
 
 Q. How many times did you take it out two or three in one daiT ? 
 A. Probably onice or so. 
 
 Q. Probably once <m so? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yoiu take two ow three leaves out of the book in a 
 single dlay;? A. Yes, sir. ] 
 
Q. Did yon ever do it more than' oince? A'. I don't know as 
 I did, j 
 
 Q. Now, how many timleis, how many different days did you 
 take a single leaf out oifl it? A. Probably two or three times; 
 T can't say that Mr. Booit. 
 
 Q. How many? A. I could not say. 
 
 Q. Wd you do it once a month? A. Yes, sir; always once a 
 month. 
 
 Q. Did youi do it twice a month? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Always twice a month? A. No, sir; sometimes I did. 
 
 Q. Did you do it three time® a month? A. Well, now I have 
 no recollection at all. 
 
 Q. Well, now you; have told us that you took a leaf out of 
 that book every month? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, for how many months did you take two out of it? A." 
 Well, probably I have taken three or four out of it. 
 
 Q. Well, I know that; well, hiow many times did you take as 
 many as two out of it? A. May be two or three timesi. 
 
 Q. Very well; now, htow many times did you take three or 
 four ouit in a month; imw many months did you take three or 
 four out in a month;? A. I ha,ve no peeo'lleottion; I ciould not tell 
 
 you. 
 
 Q. Did youj ever take as many as thi*ee leaves out of that 
 book in amy one month!? A. Yes, ^r; I have taken more than 
 that some timesL j 
 
 Q. You have taken more thani three leaves in a single mionith? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yotu ever do it pnior to 1:he month of March? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. In what mionth' prior to MaJroh did you take out more than 
 three leaves out of that book? A. May be — f can't tell you the 
 exact month; it might have been December or January. 
 
 Q. Well, did yo™ take more than three leaves out of it on any 
 one occasion prior to March? A- Yes, s'tr; I did. 
 
 Q, You did? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. On how many occasions pn'of to March did you take more 
 than three leaves out of it? A. Well, I could not tell yoiu 
 exactly. 
 
 Q. Well, tell me, about? A. Well, I have no recollection at 
 all. 
 
 Q. Well, tell me, about? A. Well, probably twoi or three 
 times. 
 
 Q. Proibably two or three times prior to the month of March 
 you took two or three leaves out of thiat book on several occaF 
 sions? A. Yes, sir. 
 
321 
 
 Q. And youi took at least one leaf out every month, aad on 
 several months usnally more than one leaf? A. Yes, sir; some 
 days I would take three ont. 
 
 Q. Yes? A. Yes^ sir; some days more, and so on like that; 
 I have no idea how many leaves I took ont of the book. 
 
 Q. Well, how would it average, Captain? A. I could not tell 
 you that. 
 
 Q. You can't give any idea? A. No, sir; I haven't any idea. 
 
 Q. Or about how manj^ leaves you took ont during the nine 
 months? A. No, sir; I have noi idea hoiw many. 
 
 Q. Well, now, you took out of this book a leaf or leaves after 
 it was found in the station-house on this occasion to which jou. 
 refer, did you? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What? A. Yes, sir; I have taken out leaves. 
 
 Q. Since this occasion? A. Yes, sir; since then. 
 
 Q. How many leaves have yon taken out since then? A. I 
 could not tell you; I might have taken ont five or six or more. 
 
 Q. When did yon take them out? A. That I could not lell 
 either. 
 
 <J. You can not give any idea? A. No, sii. 
 
 Q. Well, it is only about a month ago that that book was 
 found? A. I don't know when it was found. 
 
 Q. I should say about two months ago; wasn't it early in 
 March? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And how many leaves did yon say you have taken out 
 since then? A. I could notJ tell you; I have no idea. 
 
 Q. Well, you did tell me a few minutes ago? A. No, sir; 1 
 could not tell you how many leaves I have taken out of my book. 
 
 Q. Will yon swear yon have taken more than one leaf out of 
 it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you swear you have taken two out? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That you have taken three ont? A. Yes, sir; I guess I 
 have. 
 
 Q. Well, I don't want your guess; we can all guess; will you 
 swear you have taken three leaves out of that book since it 
 was fonmd early in March? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Three? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you taken out four? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Five? A. I can't say that. 
 
 Q. Yom know you have taken fousr out but you don't know 
 whether you have taken more ont? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, when did you take them out? A. That I can't tell 
 you either. 
 
 Q. When did yon take any one of them out? A. I think I 
 tore a couple of themi out the other day. 
 F. 41 
 
Q. What — how long ago? A. The other day. 
 
 Q. The other day? A. Yes, sir; may be a week or so ago. 
 
 Q. Two of them a week ago? A. One of them a week agO'. 
 
 Q. You think you tore out a couple of them a week a,gO'; 
 which is it, a couple or one? A. One. 
 
 Q. When did you take the other, three out? A. I could not tell 
 you. 
 
 Q. You haye no idea? A. No idea. 
 
 Q. Not the slightest? A. Not the slightest. 
 
 Q. Did the talk about this book stop in your station-house after 
 you threw it out? A. Nov sir; I didn't hear any more talk 
 about it. 
 
 Q. Never heard of it since? A. No, sir; not until some of the 
 men said they were called down to Mr. Wright's office, and were 
 to be down before the Senate investigating committee. 
 
 Q. You don't remember anybody calling you "O. K.".do you? 
 A. Yes, sir; thait it, on several occasions they jolted about it 
 
 Q. When was tlxat? A. About twoi or three weeks ago, or a 
 month ago. 
 
 Q. You said you tore a leaf out the other day, and I thtnk you 
 said it was about a week ago? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In what part of the book was the leaf that you tore out then'? 
 A. That I could not say; I opened it right open^ and any part 
 that comes open I make a memorandum, and tear them out. 
 
 Q. Then you tore out the leames which contaihed — you opened 
 it and mailing a memorandum you tore it out? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is, you make a memorandum for the purpose of being 
 torn out? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That doesn't apply, I take it, to the memorandai that are put 
 in there to keep? A. No, s.ir; there is no^ memorandumi that! is 
 put in there to keep. 
 
 Q. Well, there are some mfemoranda in this book which are not 
 torn out? A. Oh, well, I don't know anythiuig about that; there 
 may be bills unpaid and one thing oi* aniother. 
 
 Q. When did you hear of the men of your company being sent 
 down to Mr. Eoot's office? A. About two weeks agO', I think. 
 
 Q. What did you hear about ithieir being sien* down to^ Mr. 
 Root's office? A. I didn't hear anything; T did not have any 
 conversation with' thietn at all. 
 
 Q. Well, you heard something? A. Yes, sir; I heard something. 
 
 Q. Well, what did you bear about it? A. Well, I suppoised 
 they were going down' there lioi talk to you aibout it. 
 
 Q. About what? A. I don't knoiw. 
 
 Q. You say youi supposed they were going dolwni thtere to speak 
 to me about it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, what do you mean; by "about it?" A. Well, about 
 tte booK. 
 
823 
 
 Q. That is what you understood when you! heard they were 
 sent down there? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Two wieelfs ago? A. I think so; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What led you then, two weelis ago, to think they were 
 going down to Mr. Boot's ofBce to sipeak to him about the book? 
 A. Because they were — because I was led to believe that the 
 committee had the book, or was talking about the book, at least. 
 
 Q. That the committee had the book or was talking about the 
 book? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What committee? A. Why the Senate investigating com- 
 mittee; not that they had the book, for I had the book myself, 
 but that they were talking about investigating it. 
 
 Q. Was that the first idea that you got that anybody was' talk- 
 ing about this book? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, mow, why did you tear a leaf out of thisi book after 
 you understood that the firemen in your compauy had gone to my 
 office to tell me about the book, and that this Penatp investi- 
 gating committee wais goiug to invpstiffate it?. A. T didn't tear 
 leaves out; T tore several leaves out; I tore several leaves out 
 before that. 
 
 0. Well, now we wont go back before that, we will talk about 
 what has hanpened siuce: did you say since then you have torn 
 several leaves out? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 0. How many? A. Well, two OT three may be; I can not Say 
 exactlv whicihl 
 
 0. Well, now I ask you whv, since — whv, after vou leamie'd 
 that this investiaratinig' committee wais talking about this book, 
 and that the meu iVi your comtiauv had bepn sent dowu to TWr. 
 Root's office to fell him about the book, vOu to^e lpavp« <>nf of this 
 book? A. Well, the reaisow T done that was — the book T ke'^t as 
 a memorandumi bobk, and — the book T keot as a memorandnm 
 book and all the business that T had T \^ev^ iti that book and tore 
 the leaves out according as th'eV becam'e full. 
 
 Q. You mean tli^t voUi tore th!e leiavies out 'aiccordiVig as thfey 
 became fnll with memoranda' of business? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 O. What diQ you •out the memoiPanda of busineiss oni the leaves 
 for? A'. Whiat for? 
 
 O. Yes. A. Eecause it was my own booK. 
 
 0. T-ami not ouestibning your' right to malcie memoranldla iri thb' 
 hook, but T want to kniow why vou' made meuioranda ih it? A. 
 What — after it was mairked here by the colnmittee? 
 
 O. Noi: whv flld vou ever put memoranda im this book — for 
 what Tinrttoise? A'. 'Fm' what -mirDOSe? 
 
 o. Vps. A. To keep my accounts and everything elsp. 
 
 ^ Well, why did voU tear t!he leaves out as soon as they got 
 full? A. Because I toire them' out; I h'ad' nio more use for them. 
 
Q. That is, you made memoranda in tMs book to kieep your 
 accounts? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And just as soon ais you got the page full you tore it ooit and 
 threw it away? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn't you put the memorandum in' there to'keepi? A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. What did you put it in there foi'? A. For to tear tiheim out 
 and throw them aiway. 
 
 Q. One moment; I want you to loo^k ati that book and tell me 
 how many leaves you think have ever been torn out of it? A. 
 Well, I could not tell you, Mr. Koot. 
 
 Q. Ha,ve there ever been a dozen leaves torn out of it? A. 
 Yes, sir; wore, I think. 
 
 Mr. Eoot. — Well, I want the committee to look at that book 
 and say whether, in their opinion, leaves could have been torn 
 out for months^ as he haisi said. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Well, there protoalbly have been 20 torn 
 out. 
 
 Mr. Eaiaes. — And that is about the number he has said, I 
 think. 
 
 Eedireot examinarfitoh by Mr. Eaanjes: 
 
 Q. You said you put these memoranda in the book and when it 
 was full youi towe it out? A. Yesi, sir. ' 
 
 Q. Had the leaf served its punrpioise as a memorandum ? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. At the tkne you toire it orat? A. Yes^ silr. 
 
 Q. What had you dolnie with what had been entered on that 
 leaf? A. There was nothing of any imiportamoe entered there, as 
 soon as the leaf became full I tore it oiut and threw it away. 
 
 Q. No further — you did that on what account — that is what 
 Mr. Boot is trying to find out! poissibl y ; had you tramsfemed the 
 memoranda to the official record of the department? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, what had been done with the miemioo'anidum? A. I 
 don't know; I tore it out. 
 
 Q. Exactly; but what wais the ohjeot. of tearing! it outJ; why not 
 leave it in the book? A. Well, I had no object in teaiUng it out, 
 only that it became full and I tore it out and threw it away. 
 
 Q. Well, was it waste paper? A. Yesi, sir; I considered it 
 waste paper. 
 
 Q. Well, how had it become waste paper when yon tore it out 
 and threw it away; that is what T am trying to get at? A. Be- 
 cause it was full. 
 
 Q. Because the page was full? A. Yes, sir. 
 
325 
 
 Q. "Well, if it was woirth. putting in, ■v(hj was it not worth 
 leaTing in; you see I want to get at the exact point? A. Well, 
 sir, T have no reoollection of it or anything else, when thos< 
 leaves were torn out; when they became full I considered them 
 no more use and I tore them out. 
 
 Q. Yes; ajid were they in the way of writing on the cleao. 
 sheet afterwards? A. Yes, sir; they were kind of in the way. 
 
 Q. Well, weiie they tempoirary memjoranda on memoranda 
 that you wished to keep fori siome use? A. Well, they were 
 temporary ones. 
 
 Q. And did you keep amy of the leaves that you tore out, or 
 did you tear them up? A. Tore them up and threw them away. 
 
 Edward F. Cnoker, oailled by Mr. Raines, being duly sworn, 
 testJlfled as follows: 
 
 Direct examination by Mr. Raiws: 
 
 Q. Mr. Oroker, you are an offtceiri ini the fire department? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Of what company? A. CMef of the sevenath battalion. 
 
 Q. How long have you been connected withi the fire depart- 
 ment? A. Eleven years. 
 
 Q. At any tiime, has there bieeiu' within your knowledge a 
 collection among the officers of the department for the purpose 
 of aiding in siecuring legislative action at Albamy with reference 
 to the salary amiendment, of this winter? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you yourself contiibute toi any such funid? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You know; of the |1 a monUij tax collected by the offioers, 
 under the action of the officers in last June, in organizing as an 
 associatibn? A. Yes, sir. > 
 
 Q. And did you hear thle statement of th!e purposes of that 
 tax mJaide by Officer Burns upon the stand? A. I did, sir. 
 
 Q. As far as it is within your knowledge, is that statement 
 true, in all particulars, in regard to that tax, and the purposes 
 of its collection? A. Yfes, sir. 
 
 Q. Outside of that f 1 a month tax has there been any more 
 whatever collected among the officers, toi your knowledge? A. 
 Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Have yon ever been askei to pay toi such a fun'd? A.. Noi, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Have you known of any other officer being asked to pay to 
 it? A. I have not 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of the existence of any fund col- 
 lected, outside of that |1 a month tax? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Y'ou are acquainted with OffloeiP Shaw, who has been upon 
 the witness stand? A. I am, sir. 
 
Q. And aJso with. John) McCabe, deceased? A. I was^ sir. 
 
 Q. And also yoHi aire now acquainted with a gentleman named 
 Dennis Leary? A. Very slightly. 
 
 Q. On hoiw many occasions did you. meet him? A. On one. 
 
 Q. Once? A. Once or twice; I won't be sure; twice, I guess. 
 
 Q. Very well; we will take up the first occasion; do you remem- 
 ber the date? A. Well, no; I read it in the morning paper^ 
 and I supposed that is true, as to Chief Shaw's statement as 
 to the dates, but I can't recollect of my own memory. 
 
 Q. Well, was it just prior to the meeting of the officers' asso- 
 fciation on the fourth of March? A. I don't know anything of 
 the meeting of the officers' association. 
 
 Q. You were not present at the meeting of the fourth ol 
 March? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, when you did meet this Mr. Leary, just please state 
 how you came to meet him; tell the whole story; what the 
 object was? A. I accidentally ran across — I accidentally met 
 Chief Shaw, corner of Thirteenth street and Fourth avenue; it 
 was on a Friday, I think the first of March, but I won't be sure; 
 and while we were- standing there talking, ex-Chief McCabe 
 came along, and he took us around the coimer to> the Morton 
 House, or in front of the Morton Hoiuse, and introduced us to 
 Mr. Dennis Leary as a lobbyist 
 
 Q. What did McCabe tell you? A. He tells us he was a 
 personal friend of his and he wants us to meet him. 
 
 Q. Go on and tell us all McCabe told you before he got you 
 and Leary together? A. Well, he says he was a first-rate man, 
 he says, and he was very anxious we should meet him, and we 
 went around and he gave us an introduction to him, and one 
 conversation brought on another. 
 
 Q. Well, what did McCabe tell you he wanted' to meet him 
 foir? A. In relation to the amendment attached to the firemen's 
 increase of salary bill. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you what Leary could do? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, what did McCabe tell you; tell what McCabe said? 
 A. He told us that Mr. Leary could have the amendment passed 
 and could guarantee it to be passed; as the bill now stood in 
 Albany it was in the hands of Mr. Payn, and he didn't think 
 Mr. Payn had influence enough to have any bill passed. 
 
 Q. Yes, sir; McCabe told you that? A. Yes, sir; McCabe 
 told us. 
 
 Q. Now, previous to that statement by ex-Chief McCabe to you^, 
 had you heard of Mr. Payn in connection with the officers' amendr 
 ment? A. I had not, sir. 
 
 Q. That was the first mention of Mr. Payn to your knowledge? 
 A- Yes, sir. 
 
327 
 
 Q. Well, after — iisi there anything more that the chief, the 
 ex-cMef, told yon before he introduced you to Leary? A. Th.at 
 is all, sir. 
 
 Q. Then did he go into the Morton House and get Mr. Leary? 
 A- Just as we was going up tO' the Morton House Mr. Leary 
 come out, and we stood in front of the Morton House, the Broadi- 
 way entrance, and that is where we had our conversation. 
 
 Q. Yes; that is your recollection of the place? A. Yes', sir. 
 
 Q. Now, detail the entire conversation between yourself and 
 Leary, as far as you can remember? A. Well, he said that he 
 would like to be the representative of the oflSoers of the flre 
 department on behalf of their bill, and lie said that hie could 
 gnarantee, and, if necessary, give a written guarantee that the 
 bill wiould pass and be signed by the Grovemor; and he' said, 
 " But, of course, it will cost a little money, anywhere from $1,000 
 to $10,000 J " he says, " Yoiu know it costsi a good deal of money 
 to take bold of these things because it is quite expensive in- 
 Albany; you know we ihave to have suppers' and sucb. things as 
 tbis, and I can't specify any particular amonnt," and that was all 
 the conjversation on that day. 
 
 Q. Well, what did yom or Shaw say in reply to' that? A. Well. 
 we let him' alonie; we left TiiTii alone and bid him good-day, and 
 Chief McOabe did the same, and we walked around to Eigliteentli 
 street and Fourth avenue, and McCabe left usi and we talked 
 over the matter. 
 
 Q. Who? A. Cihief Sihaw and myself; we agreed not to have 
 anything to do with hlmi; we did not think froon the way this 
 man Leary talked that be was capable of can?ying put what, he 
 talked about, and neither of us wanted to have anything to do 
 with it. 
 
 Q. And when did you meet Leary again after that; biefore the 
 paissage of the bill or when? A. Well, it was ini the same month; 
 in the month of March. 
 
 Q. You saw him again, when and how; how did you come to 
 meet him again? A. Well, Shaw was to- let him know again. 
 
 Q. A little louder, please? A. Chief Shaw was to let Leary 
 know what action he had talcen, and Mr. Leary was met, if I 
 am not niastaken, about the same place, also Chief McOabe: 
 
 Q. Did you meet them? A. I did, sir. 
 
 Q. You met them about the same place; about when? A. Well, 
 may be thie 4th or 5th of the month; I know it wasi two or three 
 days afterwards. 
 
 Q. Well, state what oiocurred at that tlmle? A. Well, Chief 
 Shaw said he could not do anything for him in any way, shape 
 OT manner, that the bill had been draiwed or taken the final 
 
ooui'se in soine way; I eouid' not eixplaim exaotly Ms words; lie 
 fceld thje eonwersatkm, not nue. 
 
 Q. Are you certaiin thia* there was any su'cihi meetimgi? A. Ob, 
 tihiere is no dtouibt about tihia*. 
 
 Q. And are you sure t!hat Leary was told that lie could nrot 
 bave aaythinig to do wirtih it? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. Wliiat did MicOabe say? A. I donTt kiioiw. 
 
 Q. You don't remjember? A. No, isir; I don't rfemjemiber. 
 
 Q. And that is tihe extent of your acquaititaaice with, Leary 
 and of your conveT'sations with bim ? A. Tbeimi is the only times 
 I ever seen' bim. 
 
 Q. Now, are youi quite sure tlhiait Chief Shaw was with you on 
 that second occasDon, or is that only your own talk? A. No, sir; 
 I never met him aloine. 
 
 (■i. Well, what view did you take at the time of the conversation 
 with. Leary? A. Well, I didn't know what to mlakie of bimi, I 
 thougbA be was trytnigl to make a stbrilke or somietMng of that 
 kind. 
 
 Q. That is the iimipresisiLon youi goifi in regard toi bnlsi proposition? 
 A. That is the opinion, that we foirmed afteir we left him. 
 
 Q. Now, then, did you in any mianne'r wbatever talk witbj any 
 other officers witbi regard to tMs oonviersation between you aad 
 Sliaw and Leary? A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Did you bring iiti to the attenitioin of any committee? A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Or take any isteps or aotiloni in regard to it! in any manner 
 whatsoever? A. In' no shape oir manner wbatisoever. 
 
 .Q. You dropped thie entire aubjiect? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, there was a time whien you were sent for by La Grange; 
 Commissiomer La, Grange? A. Yes, sir; there was. 
 
 Q. When wais that? A. Well, I can't exactly remieoniber the 
 date ; if I am not mistaken it was om a Tuesday. 
 
 Q. On a Tuesday? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And where did you meet bim? A. In fire department head- 
 quarters. 
 
 Q. It was previous — it wais after this 'publioatibn in the Press, 
 was it not? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. NoAv, will you Idudly go on and state the con\(}rsation you 
 had with Oommissdioner La Grainige? A. Well, he asked me what 
 I Ifnew about thie alleged Aarge of officiers of the fire depairtment 
 giving money fOT legislative pmrpoises; and I told himi I kijiew 
 notliing about it; he aekedl me if I gave any momey and I told 
 bim, noi; and be wanted to know if I kniew anybody thait bad and 
 I told htnr noi; and be aiskied me if I knew anybody that hiad not, 
 and I told him, some of the officeirs in the baittaJioni told me they 
 bad not, and then bJe siaid, "Well, if you know any of thie officers that 
 
329 
 
 haive Dort, you mus* surely bnoiw somie thiat have; " and' I saiM, 
 " Nic; I do not," amd I told Mm — I explained toi bim abouit the 
 moTiey that was giveoi up for the 2 per cent. tax. 
 
 Q. Eiplaiu all thait you said to Mm? A. Ahout the 2 per cent. 
 tax? 
 
 Q. Well, what did you say aibouit that? A. I said that the 
 officers — I explained how the officers were asBessied |1 a nuomth. 
 
 Q. Now, then, at the time of that conversatioii, did Ckjinniis- 
 sdioner La G-range say to you: " If you know those who' did not, 
 you probably know those who did; you must know, thoise who 
 did," and did you say in reply to that: "Yes, sir?" A. I told 
 him I knew some of the officers in my battalion who did not. 
 
 Q. Well, now, did he say to' you: " Then you know those whio 
 did?" A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And did you reply to that that you did, or "yes"? A. 
 I did not. 
 
 Q. Then did La Grange say tO' you: "Then money was raised," 
 and did yoiu reply: "Yes?" A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then that statem'ent of the oommissioiner is distinctly a 
 misstatement? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In those particulars? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At the time of this conversajtioin — no.w have you told all 
 the conversatioii you had with Commissioner La Grange so far 
 as yo^ now call it to mind? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, I will ask you and see if I can refresh your recollec" 
 tion'; was there anything said about a person with a French 
 name, Gicquel? A. Gicquel? 
 
 Q. Well, what was sadid about him? A. His name was not 
 mentioned, sir; not in my presence. 
 
 Q. Did yoiu say that Gicquel and someone else you knew hadn't 
 put up? A. I did not, sir; Gicquel's name was hot mentioned; 
 I don't know anything about it. 
 
 Q. Well, what was said to- you upon the subject of your — 
 of his interest in you? A. Whose interest, Oommissioner 
 La Grange's? 
 
 Q. Yes; Commissioner La Grangers? A. Well, he told me when 
 I left the room that he thought I was telling the truth, and 
 that my proispeots in the department were great, and that as 
 long as he was a commissioner and I wiasi in the department, I 
 could always consider him my friend; and he bid me good-day 
 and I did the same, and that was the end of the conversation. 
 
 Q. And at the time you didn't realize that you had made a, 
 record of having contrilbuted to a oorruption fund with him, and 
 thereby secured his everlasting friendship' in the depairtlnent? 
 
 Mr. Root. — I object to that. 
 F. 42 
 
330 
 
 Mr. Raines. — ^Why? At the end of this interview Oommisi- 
 sioner La Grange makes that statement; why doi youi object tt> 
 me arguing once a day when you argue all the day. 
 
 Senator O'Oonnoa". — I sustain the objection to the question, as 
 argumentative. 
 
 Mr. Root— But I — 
 
 Mr. Raines. — Do you wish to argue with the court after it 
 has ruled in your favor? 
 
 Mr. Root.— No; I want out of kindnessi to your witness: and 
 Commissioner La Grange to object, because Commissioner 
 La Grange's testimony was that this witness said that he did 
 nod; put up. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — ^You are right entirely about that, Ma*. Root, bu-ti 
 I thought that he had said that he had put up. 
 
 Mr. Root. — Oh, noi; that is no* in the testimony. 
 
 By Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. Did you tell the commissioner that you had put up any 
 money whatever? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And that you didn't know of amy being put up? A. I did. 
 
 Q. Did the commissioner play bear while you were present? 
 A. How do Y<m mean? 
 
 Q. Well, did he call himself a bear? A. Well, he acted very 
 gentlemamly as far as I was concerned' toiwairds me. 
 
 Q. .Now, after this conversation with the commissioner, did 
 you have any conversation with anybody else on this subject? 
 A. After the conversation with him? 
 
 Q. Before you were called here as a witness? A. Well, no — 
 well, with Ohief Shaw, I spoke to himt about it; I guess that is 
 about all. 
 
 Q. Did you have any talk with Mr. Ro'oit? A. I did not. «ir. 
 
 Q. Were you not sent over to Mr. Quigg's oflfice? A No, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you asked at amy time for any information in regard 
 to this matter by them? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or by anyone except Commissioner La Grange? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you subpoenaed on the part of — A. I don?t kniow 
 who I was — who subpoenaed me, but I gat a subpoena- 
 
 Q. You got a subpoena? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see McCabe suWsequent to this conversation? A. 
 Previous to the conversation or subsequent to it? 
 
 Q. Subsequent to the interview; you say you saw him the 
 second time in front of the Morton House? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And there you said you could mot have anything to do 
 with it? A. Yes, sir. | 
 
 Q. Did you see Mm after thlajt? A. Twio or th!ree timiesi. 
 
331 
 
 Q. Leary? A. No, sir; McGabe. 
 
 Q. Did yoiu have any conversation with' hilmi on, the subject 
 of Leary, and this proposition of Leary's? AL No, sir; not 
 afterwairds. 
 
 Q. It was neven alluded toi between you and him? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. From that time to this? A. No, sir. 
 . Q. Has McCabe ever — ^did McCabe speak to you within a 
 week previous to his death on this subject in any wiay? A. In 
 relation to the investigation? 
 
 Q. In relation to the investigation: or this Leary matter? A. 
 Well, no; I met him two cue three tiimes, and just through 
 merely — merely what he read in the papers; I supposedi that 
 was all thait he knew about it; I suppose he inquired if there 
 was lanythtng into it or anything oSi that kind. 
 
 Q. He inquired iif there was anything in it? A. Yes, sir; in 
 the charge made in the papers. 
 
 Q. And what did you say t0 it? A. I said, "That I didn't 
 know anything about it." 
 
 Q. When was iit that you had that conversation with McO&be? 
 A. Oh, well, I could not tell yoo that, I met Mm two or three 
 times, four or five times. 
 
 Q. After the publication of the Press article? A. Oh, yesi; I 
 used to meet Mr. McGabe quite frequently, and he was very 
 friendly. 
 
 Q. Was there any otheir conversation between yoiu amd 
 McCabe? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Than his asking you if there was amythlilng in it, and your 
 saying there was not? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there any conversation between you and him' as to 
 the subject ol your telling the truth or Ms desiring you to tell 
 the truth if (^11 ed as a witness iin any way? A. I told him that 
 I was sent for by Mr. La Grange, or Gommissioner La Grange, 
 it was him that had me sent for; that he told Commissloaeri 
 La Grange that if he sent for me I would tell the truth, and that 
 is the reason he sent for me. 
 
 Q. And did you tell McCabe what you said to La Grange? A. 
 I did. 
 
 Q. And was there anytMng more said between you and] 
 McGabe than that? A. No, sir; that is all. 
 
 Grosis-examination by Mr. Eoot: 
 
 Q. When did you tell McCabe, after you had told La Grange? 
 A. I tMnk it was the next day or so, to my knowledge. 
 Q. How long before McCabe's death? A. Well, I think T was 
 
332 
 
 up there Tuesday, and I think I sent for CJhief McCabe Wednes- 
 daiy morning, and thajt Thursday aftemoon he died. 
 
 Q. You sent foiP him! on Wednesday? A. Yes, sir; to the best 
 of my knowledge. 
 
 Q. And he died <m Thursday ? A Yesj sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see, him again between the interview of Wedues- 
 day and his dealth? A. 'No, sir. 
 
 Q. What time of the day on Wednesday did you see him last? 
 A. About half-piast 9 in the morning. 
 
 Q. And yofu! never saw him] again? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Tell me again, please, what McCabe said to Shaw aud yoiu 
 on the comer of Thirteenth street and Broadway when he pro- 
 posed to introduce you to Leary, or Leary to you? A. He siiid 
 he had a friend here stoipping aft the Morton House, and he wasi 
 very anxious for us to meet him^ and he thought if the ofiicersi 
 of the fire department would let hun take hold of the interests! 
 of their bill that he would guar'antee its passage. 
 
 Q. You ispoke in youir direct examination of his mentiouing 
 him as a lobbyist? A. McOabe introduced us; to him as that 
 
 Q. Well, did he mention him as being a lobbyist in his previous 
 oonvensation with you? A. That was the first time Chief McCabe 
 ever mentioned him to us. 
 
 Q. Well, I am now distinguishing between what he said to 
 Shaw and you, and — A. Before we was introduced? 
 
 Q. Before the introduction and the subsequent oonvers.'ition? 
 A. Yes; he toild us he was a lobbyist, and introduced us as such. 
 
 Q, You mean) ihtroduoed him as such? A. Introduced him; 
 as such; yeisi, sir. 
 
 Q. Tell me how that conversation oommenced? A. Well, asi 
 1 said before, I acicidentally run across Chief Shaw at Thirteentln 
 street and Pouirith avenue. 
 
 Q. He said that also? A. Yes, sir; and Chief Shaw told us 
 that he had a friend at the Moirton House. 
 
 Q. Well, were Shaw and McOabe standing together when you 
 came along? A. They had been, but McCabe had left and was 
 to come back I'd a minute or twoi. 
 
 Q. So that you were going along Broadway? A. No, sir; 
 Foniirth avenue. 
 
 Q. And- you saw Shaw? A. Yes, sir; and he said: "Di'4 you 
 meet McOabe," and I isaidi: "No," and he said: "Well, he just 
 went around the comer," and I said : " Well, I will wait a minute 
 and see him." 
 
 Q. And you and McCabe were very good friends? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you did wait? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And MoOabe came back? A. Yes, sir. 
 
333 
 
 Q. And came back alone? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And found you and Shaw on the comer of Thirteenth and 
 Broadway? A. No, sir; comer of Thirteenth and Fourth avenue. 
 
 Q. And then this convensiation took place? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, how did it begin? A. Well, just as I said before; 
 tha,ij he had a friend in the Morton House; that Chief McOaWe 
 had a friend there. 
 
 Q. Chief McCabe sa,id that to yom? A. Yesi, sir, and to Chief 
 Shaw, and that he would like to have us; meet him; that he 
 was a lobbyist up at Albany and very well acquainted up there 
 and that he could have this bil] passed. 
 
 Q. Now, he didn't say "Have this bill passed," did he? A. 
 Well, the amendment to the bill, the officers amendment. 
 
 Q. Well hJohn- dliid he desigmartle or speak of tlie bill? A. Well, 
 tihe officers' bill for incirease of salaiy, he said. 
 
 Q. Well, yiora Imew wh'at he meant? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How did you know what he meant? A. Well, I had heard 
 of the anaendment lor ilncreais'e of salary. 
 
 Q. \'\Tiait had you heard about it? A. T just simply heard that 
 there was a bill drawn up. 
 
 Q. When did youi hear lihat there was a bill dtewn up? A. 
 Oh, I don't know. 
 
 Q. How long had yoto been heairing of it? A. May be a week, 
 may be a month. 
 
 Q. Whiat had yo^ liieia,rd abioiiit, it? A. T just simply heard ijhiat 
 there was a bill drawed up, and that it was goini;' to be attached 
 to the firemen's bill tov the inereaise of salaries'. 
 
 Q. You heard that there was a bill drawn up and that it was 
 goiing to be aittached to the firemen's bill for the increase of 
 salairies? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. DiJd you — can you fix as nearly as possible when you heard 
 that that was to be done? A. Noi, sir; I can not:. 
 
 Q. It wais before it was done? A. Yes, silr. 
 
 Q. Now from whom did you hear that the bill had been 
 drawn up and wais to be attached toi the firemen's bill for the 
 increase of salairies? A. Well, I could not tell you, sir; I can't 
 recollect. 
 
 Q. Yoiu have no idea? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. But you did hear it from somieone? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was it ftaomi some of thie officers? A. Yes, sir; it was, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, was it communicated toi you as a miatter of special 
 information, or wa,s it general rumor and talk among the 
 officers? A. It was getoeral rumior among the officers. 
 
 Q. In advance of its being dione? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How general was it? A. Well, I only heard it once or 
 twice, that it was going to be framed: 
 
384 
 
 Q. And did yoiu' understand who wais to frame it? A. I did 
 not 
 
 Q. But that somebody was? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Not one of the ofBcers? A. I don't know anything about 
 it; I was not interested ita it in any way, shape or manner. 
 
 Q. How soon after you learned tiiat the bill was to be framed 
 and attached to the offtcers' bill — to the firemen's bill — did 
 you hear that it had been attached to the firemen's bill? A. I 
 could not tell yom 
 
 Q. Well, I didn't suppose you could exactly, but could you 
 give me some general idea ? A. Well, I didn't know when it was 
 drawn, counselor, or when it was passed. 
 
 Q. Well, I know. A. I never attended none of them meetings. 
 
 Q. Well, was it a long time or a short time after you heard it 
 was to be done before you heard that it was done? A. Well, I 
 could not say. 
 
 Q. It wa.s attached on the 26th or 27th of February, would that 
 help you? A. No, sir; it was lomg previous to that that I heard 
 anything about the bill. 
 
 Q. Excuse me; it was along previous or long previous? A. 
 Long previous. 
 
 Q. Several weeks? A. Oh, yes; along about thie commence- 
 ment of the year. 
 
 Q. And had youi heard of It in the meantiknie at all? A. Well, 
 T don't know. 
 
 Q. I mean between the first of the year and timie it was 
 attachied? A. Well, T oan't say thiart I did or did not. 
 
 Q. Now, vou understand that when Mcrnbe saM' that Leary 
 was — would be n, sjoOid man to take cWaPge of that bill, that he 
 meant thi's amen-dmient which' wa^' attachied to the firemien's 
 salary bill, 'and which provided for the increase of officers? salaries? 
 A. Not pwrti'cularlv. 
 
 O. Well, von understood' that he meant the bill toi iucTeaiae 
 offlcers' salaries? A. To increase the Bremen's salaries; that 
 includes the officers, firemen and evervhody else. 
 
 Q. Yes, th'e bill included both!? A. To ilncreaise the firemien's 
 salaries. 
 
 Q. Yon understood thiat it referred to the increase of salaries 
 of officers as well? A. Oertaiiily; all mien that was attached! to 
 that busibess'. 
 
 0. Well, di'd you understand wh'v McOaibe should We talking to 
 Rhlaw and vou aibout th'at? A'. Well, T diidn't know, not then. 
 
 O, Not tlhen? A'. Or now either, hardly. 
 
 O. Well, there h'ais been siome difPerence in your understanding 
 on that snbHect, hiaH thieve; von say yon dildb't understand th^n 
 
335 
 
 why lie should go on talking with us on tJiat subject; I don't 
 know what object he had intO' it. 
 
 Q. Well, did you say to him, " That is none of my business, and 
 I don't care tO' meet you, Mr. Leary?" A. No, sir; I did not. 
 
 Q. Did Chief Shaw say to him, "It is none of my concern,?" 
 A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Well, this was Dennis Leary he referred to, I suppose? A. 
 I suppose that is his name; I suppose that his name was Dennis; 
 that is sometime after I had an introduction to him. 
 
 Q. Well, I only want to have it clear, because there is another 
 Mr. Leary who has been mentlond? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, when did you learn that this gentleman's name was 
 Dennis? A. I heard it from Chief Shaw a week or 10 days after 
 meeting him. 
 
 Q. How did Chief Shaw happen to tell you a week or 10 days 
 after the meeting that this lobbyist's name was Dennis? A. 
 Oh, I don't know exactly how he came toi tell me; well, I could 
 not say exactly what brought the couTersation along, or how he 
 came to know, how Chief Shaw came to^ know it himself; I believie 
 Leary left his card at Chief Shaw's quiarters and, that is hoiw 
 he came to know it, 1 guess. 
 
 Q. Well, after M'oCabe told you he wanted you to meet Leary, 
 he told you about his (Leary's) capacity and efficiency as , a 
 lobbyist? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. And said that he could do great things? A. He did, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, you said somethiag in your testimony about Paym? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What was said albOut Payn? A. About Mr. Payn? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir; in that conrersaiion ? . A. About Mr. Payn or hitni? 
 
 Q. About Payn? A. He said thiat Mr. Payn; that he didn't 
 think thiat Mr. Payni could get any bill introduced o'r get it 
 passed; in^ fact he knew he could not. 
 
 By Mr. Raines: 
 Q. Which one said this? A. Mr. Leary. 
 
 By Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. Well, what did McOabe say in the conversation aibout Payni, 
 before he introduced Leary? A. There was nothing said abouti 
 Mr. Payn; his name was not mentioned before the intpoduction 
 to Mir. Leary. 
 
 Q. Tfc was in the conversation with Leairy? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, you spoke of — you- told us something that McCabe 
 said about Mr. Payn ; that is what I want; whatever it was that 
 
336 
 
 you said or that was isaid? A!. Anything that was said' about 
 Mr. Payn was said by Mr. Leairy. 
 
 Q. Well, now, whalt was it that Leary said on that subject? 
 A. Tbait Mr. Payn could not have any bills passed in any shape 
 or manner in Albany. 
 
 Q. That he could not? A. That he coiuld not. 
 
 Q. Wellj what did anybody else there say to that? A- 
 Nothing at all, sir. 
 
 Q, Was that the first mentioni of Mr. Payn's name in the com- 
 yersation? A. It was, sir. 
 
 Q. The first time yotu heair'd Payn's name mentioned on that 
 day? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was that Mr. Leary said that Mr. Payn could not get any, 
 bills of any kind passed at Albany? A. He did, sir. 
 
 Q. And nobody said anything a,bout that? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did Leairy give any reason? A. No. 
 
 Q. Why Payn ooiuld not get any bills passed? A. No, sir; I 
 can't say as he did. 
 
 Q. Well, did he explain why he raenitioned Payn's name at 
 all ? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yoiu undenstaind why he miemitioned Payn's name at all ? 
 A. I did not knoiw. 
 
 Q. Why did you think he mentioned Payn'si name at all ? A. 
 I don't think. 
 
 Q. I know; but What reasoffl ini your own mdlnd did you gilve 
 for it? A. Whlat neaisiomi dfidl I gSivie? 
 
 Q. At the time; why did you think he spoke on Payn at all; 
 there aire lolts of other people that he didn't mention; why do 
 you think he mentioaied Payn? A. Why did I think he men'- 
 tioned Payn? 
 
 Q. Yes, sir. A. I didn't think; he did mention Payn. 
 
 Q. But why, at thait time ; what did you think was his reasotn ; 
 what did you thinlc was his reason for mentioning Payn? A, 
 I could not tell you, sir. 
 
 Q. Did it snrpirise you that he shoiuld sipeafe about Payn ? A^ 
 I don't Icnow; I never met Mr. Payn but once or twice in my 
 life, and that wasi wh^m I mtet himi here ai weiefc ago; I don't know 
 anything about Mr. Payn. 
 
 Q. Well, did it ocouir to you tharf: there musit be some reasom 
 foir him dragging Payn's name iinto the comversation? A. Oh', 
 yes; certainly. 
 
 Q. Well, what did you suppose that reason was? A. For Mr. 
 Payn — I come to the conclusion that if Mr. Payn was having\ 
 anything to do with the increase off the firemen's salaries bill, 
 that Mr. Leary wanted to get it. 
 
33T 
 
 Q. Well, you understood that Mr. Payn was having — A. 
 No, sir; I didn't undepstand anything about it. 
 
 Q. That was assuimed in the conversation, was it not? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was mot Leary's attack on Payn's efficiency as a lobbyist 
 passed on the assiumption that he was having something to do 
 with it? A. Well, he miilglht have said it — as I said before, he 
 said he could not have any bills passed in Albany. 
 
 Q. And that was the first thing that was said about Payn,? 
 A. That was the first. 
 
 Q. Nobody had' siaid to him that Payn could get the bill passed? 
 A. No, sir, 
 
 Q. And nobody had said to him' that Pa,yn was a better man 
 than he was? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or that Payn had the matter in charge? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or that Payn had agreed to doi it? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or that any arrangement was talked about with Payn? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. But he started right in andl like thunder out ofi clear skies, 
 "Pa>Ti can't get any bills passed at Alblany," amdi you did not 
 know why he should h&ve meutioned Payn at all? A. I did 
 not, sir. n 
 
 Q. What did Leairy say about oompensaitiou iln that conversa- 
 tion? A. He isiaid, "All such bills as that cost considerable 
 money," he didn't specify any specific am.ouint, anywhere from 
 |1,006 to 110,000 he saM, and " because living is very dear in 
 Albany, and for counsel fees and such things, to ajrgue upon 
 legislation; they are very high, and suppers, etc." 
 
 Q. Of course you knew he didn't r^ly mean' counsel fees and 
 suppers, when he was talking about suppers? A. I don't know 
 what he meant, counsel. 
 
 Q. You hadn't much doubt in your mind, haid you, of what he 
 meamt? A. Well, I will tell you; I never thought anythiilng 
 about it as I was not interested into it in any way, shape or 
 manner at all, and I am not at all to-day. 
 
 Q. reisonally yom don't cn,re about it? A. I don't c^re one 
 way or the other.- 
 
 Q. Well, I ami now trying toi get at your view of Leary's 
 proposition', frankly now? A. My view of LeaTy's propositilon 
 was that he was out for a strike, and that he could not do 
 nothing at ail. 
 
 Q. You didn't suppose that he oould pass it? A. No, sir; that 
 he could not pass the legislature Mmself. 
 
 Q. And that — Shia-wi and you agreed uipon that? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 F. 43! 
 
338 
 
 Q. As soon as jaa left himi? A. Yes, sir; right off; as soon as 
 we turned oiur baoKsl on Mm. 
 
 Q. Well, wh.^ was it yoiu) told Leaiy before youi left Mm? A. 
 Me?- 
 
 Q. Anybbldy I mean? A. I was told lie was told we would 
 see wh'at cotild be domje in. the mBitten. 
 
 Q. T!hat whjoi would see whait ciouid be donie in the matter? 
 A. "We, meaning Chief Shlaw and me, would see what icould bte 
 done in the matter. 
 
 Q. Well, was there any talk in that conversation abotut what 
 was to be done in the miatter? A. Nol 
 
 Q. What didl he want you toi do iln tte matter? A. He 
 wanted us to go to the offlceits' associlartion and make known 
 Ms proposition, and for us tw gTiariantee toi the officers' asisocia- 
 tion whiat he could doi, and let him know. 
 
 Q. And yon didn't propose to guarantee what he could dtoi? A. 
 I didn't proipO'se to guiairiantee nothing. 
 
 Q. Well, was there any specific tdkne when yoiu were requested 
 to present yourselves at the officers' association? A. Well, as 
 it 'Comes to my mind now, the day I flrist met him was on the 
 1st 'of jMai'ch, iind that ^^as on a Fiiday, if I am not luistaken; 
 i^e officers wais toi haivxi a meeting on tlie following Sunday 
 nig'ht and the propoisittlon was to be made thei'e and he was to 
 be let know on Sunday night or Monday morning; I don't know 
 wliich it was'; he said, " I want to; goi to Albiamij' on Monday morn- 
 ing; I want to go Monday morning; " and he said to Chief Shiaw, 
 ' If I don't see you, drop me a notie." 
 
 Q. Sunday was the 1st!, I think? A. Well, I am not sure aibout 
 that; I wont be sure about the date. 
 
 Q. Yes; you are right; Piriday was the 1st; Saturday was the 
 2d, and Sunday was thje 3d; now, this first meeting was on Friday, 
 March 1st? A. YeS', sir. 
 
 Q. And about what ti'nie of day? A. Well, I should say about 
 half-paiSit 2 or 3 o'clock, and imay b(' a little later; along in about 
 the flrsrtj part of the afterntoon. 
 
 Q. And yon say that there wa,s to 'be a meeting of the officers 
 on Sunday ("\'pniiig'? A. I believe so-. 
 
 Q. And that would be the third? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, where was the meeting to be held? A. I could not tell 
 you. 
 
 Q. Thie officers wiere to have a meeting on Sunday eAenimg? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 •Q. Did thiey have the meeting? A. I could not say, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, did they have their regular foirmai meietinig on Sun- 
 day evening? A. I could niolti tell you; I do not know. 
 
339 
 
 Q. Do yoiu belong to tihie assoiciatiou? A. I do, sir; but I never 
 attenided a meeting in my life. 
 
 Q. Well, it strikes me as a little pieculiar, thajt's all; that they 
 should meet on Sumidiay! eiyening,'a(ndl wamttogetartlyoiurreasions 
 for thdmkiaig so? A. Well, I understand, but it migihit ha,ve been 
 Monday. 
 
 Q. Well, what gave you the idea? A. Well, I donft ImiOiw; it 
 just happened to come to me; that's all. 
 
 Q. Well, was it menitioMed m that coliversatioin? A. Well, no; 
 I say, inoi; but I think Chief Shaiw said, " We are toi have a meet- 
 ing and I will propose it; " or something to that effect. 
 
 Q. He said, " We are going to have a meeting and I will :pm>- 
 pose it," or something to ^thlat effect? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And your pEeseint impressiom is that the tittne of the meeting 
 was stated? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 •Q. That he said, that, "We are going toi have a meeting 
 tormwrrow or Sumday?" A. Yes, sir; I thtuM so, Sunday night, 
 they usually hold a meeting in] the engine-house; a few officers 
 get together; get around on Sundayis, and, I think, the meeting 
 was called in relation- to the 2 per cent. tax. 
 
 Q. A splecial meeting? A. Y(\s, sir; well, as toi the meeting I 
 wont be sure aboiut that!; I wont swear toi tliat. 
 
 Q. Well, I only want to get at it; yon hanie said ifc was a kind 
 of meeting they were in the habit of holding ini one engine-house 
 or the other? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Accoirding as convenfilencie might dictate? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. For the purpose of consultation ? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where a few officers might meet? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. And different from the general foiinial monthly inieeting of 
 the officers' associa,tioiii? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. And those 'Simply info-nnial mieetiugs at the engine-houses 
 were held on Sumday night as wpU as any other night? A. Oh, 
 ,^es; the reason why it would be Sunday night was* because more 
 officers would be off on Sunday night. 
 
 Q. You mean that more officeri9 wonld be off on leave? A. 
 "5 es, sir. 
 
 Q. You understoiod that Shaw was to present this, or gave 
 Leary to understand that he -nas to prcBent this propotsition at 
 such a meeting on Simday night? A. He ga^'e TiFr. Leary to 
 undenstaud that. 
 
 Q. Well, now that was — you separated on that, I suppose — 
 that was the wind-up of that conversation? \. That was the 
 end of that donversation; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That was the first conversation? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And then Lea^ry went off his way? A, Yes, sir. 
 
340 
 
 Q. And Shaw and McOabe and! yoti) went off together? A. 
 Yes, sdr. 
 
 Q. In what direction — which way did you go? A. South to 
 Thirteenth streeii and thiroiugh Thirteenth to I?V>tirt!h avenue, and 
 we stood on the southwest corner for a while. 
 
 Q. McOaibe and Shaw and you? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, now, wihati did you taJk about? A. Talked about 
 the same oonTersatioin in relation to the bill, and general topics 
 od: the day, etc 
 
 Q. You talked about the conversation that you had had with 
 Leary? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The three of you? Aj Yes, air. 
 
 Q. Well, what did you say? A. Well, I don't know as I can 
 recall the oouversatioui; nothing in particular, only just about 
 what I have related; we went over the whole conversation again. 
 
 Q. Yesi; you did? A. Talked over what Mr. Leary said he 
 could doi, amd the chief guaraDteed Ms word was good and that 
 he could do what he siaid he ciould. 
 
 Q, And then you and Shaw said what? A. That we would 
 see what we could do. 
 
 Q. You toldl McOabe thiat? A. Ye®, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, then it was not until you hiad left Leary that you 
 had said that? A. Oh, yes; we saiid that to Leary too, and then 
 we said the salne thmig to iikni whjem hie said to us, " See what 
 you cau do; " and we said, "All iriHgiht, John, we will." 
 
 Q. Wh'eU' was it that yoni and SIhaw expressiedi to each other 
 th!e idi^ that the propositioui didn't amount to anything? A. 
 After McOabe left 
 
 Q. After McCabfe left? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I aim niolw speaMug about the 1st of Mardh? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q'. j^ovf, we will go to the next interview, with Leary; was 
 that on tilie same day, the 1st of MarchI? A. N^o, sir; two or 
 three days afterward. 
 
 Q. It was not on Friday the Ist, or Saturday the 2d? A. Woll, 
 I am sure ilt was not on the 1st, it might have beeni on Satur- 
 day, of Sunday or Monday. 
 
 Q. It might Wave been on Saturday, Sunday or Monday? A 
 I could not say exactly; it wais two or three or four days aifter- 
 ward; I oould not recollect exactly; whatever date Oiief Shaw 
 says it lis is right. 
 
 Q. Whtere was the seootod interview? A. Tthe samie place. 
 
 Q. The same place — where was thati? A. Well, ini front of 
 the Mortoln Housie, between TMilteiemth and Fourteenth streets. 
 
 Q. At wh^t time iin^ the day? A. Well, in th'e aftemoou b'e- 
 tweeni 2 and 2.S0. 
 
341 
 
 Q. Well, whait was the siuibject of thM mieeting amid blow did 
 it comie about? A. Well, to know wbat the ofloers tbongbt of 
 his pnopioisitiioii, to give him. am answer. 
 
 Q. Well, did ywu go np there alone? A. No, sir; with Chief 
 Shaw and Chief MeCabe. 
 
 Q. All three went together? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. ^Snd where did you meet him ? A. In fr«lnt of the Morton 
 House. 
 
 Q. Well, if you three went together you must haive met some- 
 where else? A. Well, I went to Chief Shaw's quarters and we 
 went together to the Moirton House to meet the other two. 
 
 Q. Where were your quarters? A. On Twientieth street be- 
 tween Seyenth and Eighth awenue. 
 
 Q. And Chief Shaw's quarters were where? A. On Thirteenth 
 street between Thiird and Foujrthj a,venue. 
 
 Q. It was ajlong early in the afternoon? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You left yotar quiairtiers otm Twentieth street? A. I did; 
 yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And went up to or down to Chief Shiaw's quarters on 
 ThirtJeenth street between Third an^ Fourth arenues? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. For the purpose of going to this meeting? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And then from Chilef Shaw's quarters on Thirteenth street, 
 between Third and' Fourth avenue, you and (Mef Shaw walked 
 together over to Broadway in fi'ont of the Morton House, be- 
 tween Thirteenth and Fourteenth streets? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And there you met whom? A. Mr. Leary; Chief McOabe 
 was there and' we waited a few minutes, and Mr. Leary came 
 oiut of the Morton House. 
 
 Q. Chief McOabe was there? A. Yea, ^r; and Leary. 
 
 Q. Came out of the Morton House? A. Yes, A. 
 
 Q. Did you have ainy conversation with Chief McOabe before 
 Leary came out of the Morton House? A. Yes, sir; we told him 
 we could not do nothitoig in relation to the bill. 
 
 Q. You told him that? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who told him that? A. Chief Shiaw. 
 
 Q. And what dM McOabe say? A. I don't recollect; I don't 
 know that he said anything. 
 
 Q. Well, do you remember anything els© that occurred be- 
 tween MciOabe, Shaw and you before Leary caimie out? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, whiat happened bettbire Leary cam© out — but first 
 tell me as clearly as you can just what Shaw said to McOabe in 
 telling him that you could not do anything? A. Well, I don't 
 know as I can tell you. 
 
 Q. DM he tell McCabe what he had tried to do? A. I don^t 
 kniow. 
 
342 
 
 Q. You don't remeim'bler'? A: No', sir. 
 
 ■Q. Did he tell McCabe what effpirtts he h&d maAe toi get tMte 
 propositiom accepted? A. I thinfe he Uold Chief MdGahe that tlh.e 
 officers had alreaidy appointed a legiisla'tive camanittee and thlat 
 the bill was alread|y franaed and attached and it waisi tool late: 
 
 Q. Nofw was thait the flnst thing thiatt had been siaid aibont the 
 legislative commiittee? A. First thdlng thait was said to Ohiief 
 McOabe. 
 
 Q. Either to McCabe or Leary at eithier of these oonversations? 
 A. Well, the same coniversationi went on previbius, atourt- meetitng 
 Mr. Leary, that was told to Mr. Leary. 
 
 Mr. Baines.— On whiat oiecasaioini; on the first oacasdoni? A. ;nFoi, 
 sir; this is tlhe second ocicasibn he ils' talking about norw. 
 
 By Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. Please give the cony er sail on that oicciirred when Leary 
 came and JohtU' McCabe and Shaw amd yom and he wiare together 
 on this second occasion? A. Well, I don't knoiw as I can give 
 it word for word. 
 
 Q. Well, gi^e it as cloisely as yoiui can? A. Well, it was about 
 this — 
 
 Q. Well, give tflie words as nearly; as you cani, and the siub- 
 stance of it where yoiu cau noit give tine words? A. Chief Sha.Av 
 said, "I have seen some of the officers and' they have ali'eady 
 appoilnted their legislative committee, and it is gone siO' far now 
 that we can not make a ctoanige," or somethdlng to that effect; " I 
 aui ^■en' soiTj I didn't see you*beloie; "" I don't remember the 
 exact words, but that is aboiut the' drift of the oonversation. 
 
 Q. That was about what he said? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was that the beiginning of the conversation after Leary 
 came oiuit? A. Well, toi my knoiWled'ge, ^Ir. Leaiy might have 
 said, hJow did youi make out — ^or, gioiod afteruoioni — or somethling 
 of that Idnd; I dpnft know. 
 
 Q. Well, what did Leary say? A. He said nothilnig; we stood 
 there talking a while, y.ou know; I don't ktoorw exactly what th.e 
 coE N'ersa.titon was. 
 
 Q. Well, what did MjaOaibe saty ? A. McCabe walked; away with 
 as. 
 
 Q. No; I mean while you were staradinjg thierei? A. Not a. word. 
 
 Q. What did you say? A. Not a, word. 
 
 Q. That is, this was simply that, Leary oame out, joined yoiu, 
 and Shaw told what you have recounted? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. About what! he had tried to do and could mot do? A. Yes 
 sir. 
 
 Q. And Lea,ry accepted it as finail? A. Y^, sir. 
 
343 
 
 Q. Au'd you sepMatedi? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, you say Shaw told Leiary that the odfioers! had 
 appointed their legiBilative committee? A. I did, sir. 
 
 Q. And that the thing- had gpnie tooi far to change? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that was in the secoud couversatioini? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Had anything been said aJbloiut tlie legislative cotmmittee in 
 the first conversiatiom? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Hadn't Shaw told Leairy 'anything aiboiut a committee on 
 legislation or a le'gislatiVie committee in thai fin'st oomversation ? 
 A. Not toi my lino'^^iedge. 
 
 Q. If you didmj't care anythinig ahouit this buisineas. Chief 
 Croher, why did j-ou take the trouble to> gO' and meet Leary this 
 sec-ond time? A. Because I agreed to meet him. 
 
 Q. When was that agreement made? A. At the first meeting. 
 
 Q. When was the tiku'e fixed? A. About that time. 
 
 Q. ^\aid at the first meeting it was agreed — the time and 
 place of the siecond meeting wa,s agreed upon? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was that — ? A. It was not himi I oared sa mlueh about. 
 
 Q. At the first mielebing with' Leary, before you separated, 
 Shaw and Leary and McOabie and you a,greed that you would 
 meet at the same plaicie on the day and at the hour specified? A. 
 We did, sir. 
 
 Q. And that there a report should be made as to what had 
 been accomplished towards getting his proposition accepted? 
 A. That is it exactly. 
 
 Q. And it was by reason of that appointment that you went 
 to that place? A. Exactly. 
 
 Q. Now, re-examining and testifying toi such a matter as this, 
 sometimes refreshes the mind, and I would like you again to 
 conmilt yoim' memory and see if you can recollect a little 
 more definitely of what day it \\aiS that this second meeting 
 toolc place? A. Well, I thought about that on my way down 
 this morning, and I oan't recollect; I kept no notes in any way, 
 shape or form, and I was not interested enough in it to commit 
 it to memory; I do noiti honestly know it. 
 
 Q. But you can fix it within some limits, I suppose? Al 
 Well, as I said before, it might have been Saturday, Sunday oir 
 Monday ; two or three iw four days after. 
 
 Q. After the first meeting? A. Yes, sir; after the first 
 meeting. 
 
 Q. Have you asked Chief Shaw if he could remember what 
 day it was? A. I have not; I have not had any conversation' 
 with Chief Shaw in any way, shape or manner about it. 
 
 Q. Well, let me see if I can refresh your memory; it could 
 not' have been the next day after the meeting, because there 
 
344 
 
 wonild not liave been any opportanity to sabmilt this pnoposition 
 to the Sunday nilght meeting! of the officersi? A. "No. 
 
 Q. YoTi ooiuid not have agreed to meet imtil after that Sumdiayi 
 night meeting? A. Hardly. 
 
 Q. So that it is pinoibable that the second meeting was noit 
 before Monday? A. It is more than likely that it was' Monday) 
 aftemoom, for, as I said, if I am .not mistaken, that meeting was 
 held on Sunday night, but where I won't swear to that, because 
 it was only a suppoHition, and the probability wais that it was! 
 on Monday. 
 
 Q. That is, ion the second occasion? A. Yes^ sir; that wasi 
 the second. 
 
 Q. Mr. Groker, Ohiief Shaw identifled here yesterdjay a letter 
 as having been written by him' to Leary, of which I show yon 
 a copy; the original seems tt)i have been left with one of the 
 officers; will yon be good enonigh toi read that? A. I don't know) 
 anything about Chief Shaw's letter in any way, shape or manner. 
 
 Q. Well, I want to ask yon a question or two about it thaH 
 may refresh yoniti irecollectiion about that first intendiew; now; 
 this letter reads: 
 
 I 
 
 FIKE JDEPAUTMENT HEADQUAETEiElS. 
 
 Sixth Battalion, 
 New Yoek, March 5, 1895. 
 D. Leaky, Esq. 
 
 Dear Sir. — We were unable to influenoe the officers to ohange 
 their programme last night, and it will go as I told yom Sorry! 
 that we didn't meet sooner, as we might have had different 
 results. 
 
 Yours truly, 
 
 WILMAM SHAW. 
 
 Eefreshing youir reoollection by that letter, won't you tell me 
 what was said about — what was said at the first interview, if 
 you can now recall attiythiing about the program regarding this 
 Mil? A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. Well, Chief Shaw says here, after saying, " We were unable 
 to influenoe the offloeira to ohknge thleSlr programme last night," 
 he says: "It will go ais I told yon." A. He never tried to influ- 
 ence them. 
 
 Q. Wait a moment; I didn't finish my question. A. Excuaie 
 me. 
 
 Q. After saying that he was unaMe toi influenoe the officers 
 to change their programme, he goes on to say, "and it will gio 
 
as I told you; " now, what had! he told Leary; how had he told 
 Learj that it wooild gO'? A. As I have already told you, that 
 they had already appointed their committee. ' 
 
 Q. Tlhein; tihis refers to — 
 
 Mr. Biaines. — One moment, please, Mr. Root. Finish your 
 answer. 
 
 Witness (continues). — 'Kie officers had already appointed their 
 legislative committee and whatever action they hiaid taken in 
 regard to framing the bill, and having it attachied to the original 
 firemen's salary bill; tlmt is what I understood him to have 
 meant by the original arrangement. 
 
 By. Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. And that is what you have already told us was said at 
 this second interview? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And this letter, whilch is dated March 5, 1895 — thajt would 
 be Tuesidiay, tihe 5th? A. Yies, siir; Tuiesday the 5th. 
 
 Q. And that you nindlerstoiod toi refer to the second intendew? 
 A. That was 'after thle mieeting th;at I have Deference to; the 
 meeting was on Monday then insitead of Tuesday. 
 
 Mr, Raines. — Talk out a little loiuder. 
 
 Q. Thte meerting was on Monday instead of Sunday then? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Roiot: 
 
 Q. Now, did Chief Shiaw tell Leary how it would go at tke 
 first meeting? A. No. 
 
 Q. Everything that he said to Leary about how it would go 
 wajs said at the second meeting, was it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, was there at the second meeting any arrangement 
 made for a further attempt? A. None whatsoever. 
 
 Q. To influence the ofScera? A. None whatsoeveir. 
 
 Q. Was there amy arrangement said and containedi in the. 
 ■words that you have alreaJdy stated as being spoken at the 
 first interview? A. I diotn't unidlersitaind you. 
 
 Q. Was .there ever, to your knowledge, any aarangement) made 
 with Leary that Ohief Shaw would do anfything albbuit his propio- 
 sition, except what yoiu have already stated ais occurring at the 
 first meeting? A- Not to my kniowtedge. 
 
 Q. At the seconid meeting was there anythSlng said about a 
 letter having been written by Shaw to Leary? A'. No, siir. 
 
 Q. When you went to thiaitl meeting, that second meeting, did 
 Shaw say anytlhinig to yoia aboujt having written to Leary? A. 
 No, £dir. 
 
346 
 
 Q. Did yiou eVeir fcn0w that Sbaw had written this letter of 
 Mmchma? A. I did. 
 Q. WWat? A. I did. \ 
 
 Q. Wliein did yoiu first know of it? A. Thie nlgM of thle Are. 
 
 Q. What night? A. The night of March 9tlh, I thinlc; wasn't 
 that Monday night — that ils^ hbw the letter Gome to be wrote ; it 
 was Tuesday night, I think. 
 
 Q. Wlas it before or ajflter yoiur mieeting with Leairy? A. After. 
 
 Q. Mt&ss the Becondl meeiting with Leairy? A. Oh, yes; I never 
 met Leairy but twicss. 
 
 Q. And this letter was written, and written with your knowl- 
 edge after the second meeting with Leary? A. It was not wait- 
 ten with my knowledge; after the letter was writtlen' I was 
 informied that he hiajd droppied himi a; note, but I didn't know 
 what thte note was. 
 
 Q. Yon understood that he had dropped Mm a note after the 
 second meetilng? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. Wlell', icatn' you suggest any reason wihy after that second 
 mieeting, whlen tii'e final answen had been given to Leary, Shaw 
 shkrald wrattie that letter to Mm? A. I don't knoiw nothing about 
 that, sir. 
 
 Q. "Wiel, yoiu are very fajniliar with the circumstances and 
 talked with Shaw immedikitely after he wmote it; won't yon tell 
 the committee, if they wish toi hear, why OMief SQiaw should 
 write this letter to Leairy after you and he and McCSabe had 
 met Leairy according tol apppiinittaent, and had given him his 
 final answer? 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Well, we will take his idea. 
 
 The Witness. — I have noi opinion toi express. 
 
 Senator O'Oonnor. — Well, have yom no- opinion whatever to, 
 express? 
 
 The Witness. — I have no' opinion; I haven't formed any 
 opinion. 
 
 Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. Have yon any opinion as to' the reason why Oiief Shaw 
 never mentioned that second interview with Leary when he was 
 on the stand? A. I have not, sir; may be he wasn^'t asked. 
 
 Bedireot examination by Mr. Eainesi: 
 
 Q. The fact i®, that thJe officers meeting, thei meetiuigs of the 
 officers' asisociation, were not held at all on Sunday night, weire 
 they; is it not a fact that yoiu are mistaken about that? A. 
 YeSj sir; I am mistaken. 
 
347 
 
 Q. Yo'U' are mistaken about that? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. About the offloers' meetings! being held on Sunday night? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You never attended any of the meetings? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And you were mistaken about their micetings being held 
 on Sunday night? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Noiw, you say there was talk amoug the ofScers about the 
 amendment to the increase of salary bill? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Previous to the meeiting with Leary and the negotiaitioins 
 you speak of? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And was that talk, that they should have their pay in- 
 creased as well as the firemen? A. I don't know how far they 
 extended it; that is all I heai'd aboait it. 
 
 Q. Well, did you hear amy plan outlined as to how they would 
 go to work to get the amendment attached to the bill? A. No, 
 sii'. 
 
 Q. You heard nothing about tbat matter? A. I heard that a 
 bill was toi be di-awed and alttached toi the firemen's increase 
 ocf salary bill, and that is all I heard about it. 
 
 Q. Yes; and the geuei-al talk among the oificers was that their 
 salairlea should be increased along with those of the men? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was i)t talked about, that if it was the intention to get 
 the bill passed at that time, that would be the way to get it? 
 A. Well, I heard very little about it, counsel; I was not inter;- 
 ested, and I did not hear very much about it. 
 
 Q. Now, aside from this proposition from MeCabe and Leary 
 to you and Shaw, did you know of any sort of proposition being 
 made to any officer with reference to coiTupt dealings in this 
 matter? A. None whatsoever. 
 
 Q. And whatever arrangement existed between McCabe and 
 Leary in regard ito .the rprofpoisition of Leary, did you receive any 
 information from McCabe or Leary about it? A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Or about how McCabe came to come to you and Shaw about 
 this matter, you don't know? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was the second meeting brought about by McCabe going 
 for you people? A. It was brought about by appointment from 
 the flirst meeting. 
 
 Q. The first meeting? A. Yes, sir. > 
 
 Q. The first meeting and subsequent conversation? A. Yes^ 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Before that second meeting was held and at the close of 
 the first meeting, did joxv and Shaw come to this decision, nioff 
 to have anything to do mth the matter, or not to have anything 
 to do with Leajry? A. We did, sir. 
 
348 
 
 Q. 'AM the olosie of that first intenriew? A. Yes, siii". 
 
 Q. And the only thing that was on your mind after that was 
 how to get rid of MoOabe and Leary? A. That is the idea; but 
 not exactly McOabe. 
 
 Q. Well, there was something myisterious about the associa- 
 tion of MoCabe and Leary, and you didn't understand about 
 that? A. Noi, sir; that is it. 
 
 Q. And you didn't umderstaiid wihat Ms interest in thie miatter 
 v\itli Leary waft? A. Tlhat is it. 
 
 Q. And you intended tb put an end to your dealiuiga with both 
 of than, on accoaint of your friendship withi MJciOabe, nicely; 
 and how to get rid of ttueml withoiut offendinig or wounding 
 McCabte wa;s the piroiblemi that you had to solve? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you did the best you could? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was it evieip uniderstoiod and contempiaJted by you amd Shaw 
 to proceed on the lines laid ont by McCabe and Leary ? A. Not 
 for one second. 
 
 Q. Did it occur to you — I gness that is; all, Mr. Croker. 
 
 Reorossrexamimatloin; by Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. Thiere were never, thien^ any of these meetings around at the 
 enginle-houses, tih'ose ihfioimiial Sunday evening meetings? A. 
 There have been meetings at the engine-houses; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Anid on Sunday evenings as well as on other evenings? A. 
 Yes, ;S!ilr. 
 
 By Mr. Eainesi: 
 
 Q. But not regular meetilngs of tlie aseiociatiou? A. I don't 
 know what tihiey were. 
 
 Q. They were officers mleetings'? A. Yes*, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, social meetings? A. Not social. 
 
 Q. Smnday evenitnigs — ? A. Any time they happened to be 
 oaaied. 
 
 Q. Well, whether thieyi were committee meetings or what you 
 don^t know? A. I coiuld mot say what thiey were; I don't know 
 amythihg abiout it at all. 
 
 Q. You were never at any of them? A. Noi, eilr. 
 
 By Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. Let mie ask when did you first hear that money was being 
 raised to get this officers' amendment put tjhmughi? A. Thronigh 
 the papers. 
 
 <3. When? A. I tMnk I seen it in the Herald here some time 
 atgo. 
 
349 
 
 Q. Give us as nearly as you can the time when you saw it? A. 
 Well, I cam't recollect. 
 
 Q. Probably I oan tell you; do you remember Chief Boniner's 
 resignatioia from the officers' asisoiciatioin'? A. I doi moit, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn't you hear abouitl that ait the time? A. Not at tihe 
 tdimie, sair. 
 
 Q. Well, it seams toi be pretty/' well prorved here that his resigna- 
 tiotQ was presented at the meeting of March 4th, at the meeting 
 of the officers' aissobiatioii of March 4th, and Ohief Bonner says 
 that befoire writEng his resigniaitiom he had seen some articles in 
 the newspapers about the offiioers tryiJug to get theilr isialaries 
 raised, and raising momiey for that purpose; do you think that the 
 articles you saw were of that kind and at thai time? A. Well, 
 it was all of a month ago that I seen it, some time about that, I 
 can't recollect exactly the time. 
 
 Q. Well, can you tell us with neferemce to the timesi of these 
 conversatioms witthi Leatry; before or after those? A., It was 
 just previous to, that conversation, a week or 10 days or so. 
 
 Q. A week or 10 days b'efoffe the couversatiiom with Leaiy it 
 was, that you siaiw the articles in the papere? A. It might have 
 been'; I wont say; it might have been; I can't say. 
 
 Q. Well, I understood you to.siay you thought it was? A. T 
 think soi; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And did you see moi-ethan, one? A. Well, I think not. 
 
 Q. Do you remiember imi whait paper it wasi that you saw it? A. 
 If I am not mistaJjen I saw it in the Herald. 
 
 Mr. O'Coinuor. — Well, we will adjourn at this point until hialf- 
 past 2. 1 
 
 Mr. Baines. — Well, haven^t you flnishedi with Ohief Croker, 
 Mr. Root? He is- on the sick list. 
 
 Mir. Eoot. — No; I wilsh; to aisk him a few more questiions. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Well, we will then posttponie the adjourn- 
 ment; go on and finish with Mr. Croker. 
 
 Mr. Root. — I wSll be through 'with him in a moment. 
 
 Q. What tlid the article say? A. I didn't commit it to memory. 
 
 Q. Well, the substan-ee? A. I could not tell you. 
 
 Q. Well, tell me something about it? A. Just a rumor that 
 the officers were looking for am increase of salary, or something 
 of that kind. 
 
 Q. Well, did you have thatdb mind at the time of your conver- 
 sation witli Leary? A. I dald not. 
 
 Q. Did it pass out of youir minid? A. I never gave it a thought 
 in amy way, shape or miamlnler. 
 
 Q. Didn't the conversation with Leairy recall toi your mind 
 this statement? A. No, A. 
 
350 
 
 Q. !Nbi cDUnection was esitablislbed in yoiujr mind between what 
 Leaiy said or what McCiaibie said, and this artifcle? A'. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or this nimoir that yoiui liW liearidi oin tihe artiidle tii\snt you 
 had seen? A. No, sdir. 
 
 Q. WfeU, hiald yon heaapd the rumioir apart from seeing the 
 article in -the niewisrp^pieir ? A. Tlhat was the first I Weard abbnit it. 
 
 Q. ThJatU was the first yolu beard lalbouit it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, after seeing the article in tbie newspapers did yon 
 hear the subject tallied about in the department? A. Well, I 
 heard it talked about once or twice, perhaps, among the officers. 
 
 Q. Well, was that before or aifter the first meeting with Leary? 
 A. Oh, that was aftea: The Press ooime out. 
 
 Q. After The Press came out? A. Yes, sir; that Press charge 
 made the pjrincipal conversation in the fire depai-tment; that 
 staartied things to going. 
 
 Q. I m'eian after the asrtlilele in the Herald? A I could not 
 say. 
 
 Q. And before the iinterview with Leairy? A. I co^uld hot say. 
 
 Q. You can not recall whether you heard any talk about it at 
 all? A. No, sir. 
 
 Seniajtor O'Oonnioir.— Now the comtmittee will adjourn until 
 half-piast 2 o'clock. 
 
 AFTEB EiElOESS. 
 
 Stephen Gairtwright, called by Mr. Kaines, being duly sworn, 
 testified as follows: 
 
 9 
 
 Ditect examilnation by Mr. Eaines: 
 
 Q. Captain, you are a member of what company? A. Hook 
 and Ladder 4. 
 
 Q. How long have you been connected with that company? 
 A. About la ymir. 
 
 Q. Hotw long have you been connepted witli the department? 
 A. Oloise on to 24 years; between 23 and 24 years. 
 
 Q. What is yoiur redord, Oaptain, as a disciplinarian; have you 
 made chairges agaiinst itihe men of youir company? A. I have 
 been lan oflflcer in the depiairtment for about 20 years, or a little 
 over, and I have probably mlade abouit three or four charges. 
 
 Q. AgaSlnst subordinates? A. Against suboirdinates. 
 
 Q. Never against yoiurself at any time? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Yoiu have been somiewhiat severe with regard to the require- 
 ments of the board with your compatny? A. No, sir; I have 
 
351 
 
 merely ciarrled out tUe rules of the departmeint, and ha^e seen 
 that my mien dome so, too). 
 
 Q. Ai'e you a membei' of the officers' oirgamizaition^ catptain? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And ha\'e been since its oirganization in June last? X. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you attended its meetings? A. I have never been 
 to a meeting isince last Auigust. 
 
 Q. At any time, have you paid any aisisessment towards a fund 
 to influence legislation? A. JS^o, sir. 
 
 •Q. You have heard the testimony of Captain Burns in regaa'd 
 to the |] a month tax? A. I was not here; tbis is' my first 
 day here. 
 
 Q. Well, do you know of the ciolieotion of the |1 a month tax 
 in your battalion, commencing about June last? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. And the purpcseisi for whicih it was raised and tO' which it 
 was applied? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Outside of that dollar a month tax, has any money been 
 assessed upom or collected from tbe officers toi your knowledge? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you paid anything? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do youi know of any other officer paying anything? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do yoiu know of any payment of |30 or |45 towards the 
 influencing of any committee oi- any memibers of the Legisilature 
 to securie favorable legislation? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any infoirmation to give tlhis committee in regaird 
 to any fund of tbat kind? A. No, isir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been asked toi pay any assessment? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Any such assessment? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you ac«[uainted with a man named Fitzgerald, in your 
 conupaiiy? ..V. Yes, sir; there is such a man, a member of my 
 comjiauy. 
 
 Q. He says, Oaptaom, that," on the 12th day of March, he bad a 
 talk with you with reference to the salary' bill; did you meet 
 him on the 12t'h day of March and have any business^ with him? 
 A. The 12th ol March I was home, sick, with' a severe d'ose of 
 bronchitis; Fireman Fitzgerald came to my house. 
 
 Q. A little louder, pleaise, Captain? A. I say, on the 12th 
 of March, Fireman Fitzgerald came to- my house, while I -^as 
 at home with a severe attack of bronchitis, and the only con- 
 versation we had there was that which he siaid Mmself, per^ 
 taining to how the company was getting along, and .how the 
 boys were behaving ^themselves, and what fires' they had been 
 to, while I waia away; I wiais totoi hbairse toi dV)i any spleaking myself 
 at the time. 
 
362 
 
 Q. Well, during that interview at the house, wasi anything 
 said on the subject of the salary, bill, or the officers amend- 
 ment to the salary bill? A. Not that I know of. 
 
 Q. Well, yOTi know, of course, whether there was any talk 
 between you and Mm, at that time, on that subject? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. There was not? A. No, sir; Fitzgerald done all the talking. 
 
 Q. Did you maike a remark about their bill being nearly dead? 
 A. No, .siir. 
 
 Q. Did you say that your amendment, the officers' amendment, 
 would carry it along?- A. No> sir. 
 
 Q. Did you say that you thought it would be a good idea for 
 the men to meet the officersi' committee for the purpose of carry- 
 ing that bill through? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. That they were talking about assessing the officers |90 
 apiece, and you thought it coiuld be done cheaper, reducing the 
 officers' asisessment considerably, if they could get together? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or anything to that substance or effect? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or did you say that it would be a better thing if some older 
 man in the department than Bums would handle the bill? A. 
 No, sir. I ' ' ' 1 ' I ! I I '. 
 
 Q. Did you have a talk with him or were you out with him 
 looking at the signs pointing to the flrehouises? A. No, sir; not 
 with him. 
 
 Q. Was there any titae whiem you and hfe were on the street — 
 or were you with Whelam amy tfflmie, when you were out with 
 Wlielan, out on the sta-eet, lodking at the signs? A. Me and Fire- 
 man WhBlan went out, onie eviening, I think it was the 6th of 
 March, to look at signs on the lamp-posts on comers, telling 
 where the nearest fire-alarmi box was, and a hand directing them 
 that didn't Itnow wihere they was, where to find them; the signs 
 were on both sides of the aivenue; aud, to take them in properly, 
 w(^ went on both sides of the street, and the only conrersa tiion. 1 
 had with Fireman Wlielan was ■^iih legaird to — toilet paper for 
 the house — outside of the sigras on the lamp-posts. 
 
 Q. And there was no sndh oonversaiti(nn as he states between 
 yon, as to the salairy bill? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. Or in regard to any assessment? A. No^, sir. 
 
 Q. Or about your paying any money? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you say to either of theise men^ tharti you got- up thle 
 meeftings and wouldn't put up a cent, because, if the bill was 
 passed, you would be as good as any of them? A. No, sir; I 
 haven't been to the meetings since last August. 
 
 Q. You- are aware of the statements made by those twO' men? 
 A. Whlat I have! seen m the paper. 
 
353 
 
 Q. Is tihjere amy HmxtM in any part of thieir staitetmiemtls, wiMi 
 regard to iihieir convepsation with yora in reigand toi tihie salary bill? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have yooi any theory to advance, Captain, with regard to 
 their — 7 A. Well, I don't know as I have; I don^t kmoiw of any 
 theory; I was really more snrprised lait it than' anybody else, when 
 I read it 
 
 Q. And there is noi fotundation', in facit, for their tesitilmony ? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. On that point? A. No, sir. 
 
 Crossrexamination : 
 
 Mr. Eioot. — May I ask if the copy of the testimony which the 
 ehairmam' is examining contains the testimony of Fitzgerald and 
 Whelan? I ohservie that yom" honor is reading a copy of the 
 testimony, and I would ask if it contains a copy of the testimony 
 of Fitzgerald and Whelan. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — It doe^ It is a little difficult to' crosis^ 
 examine, I snppose, withouit having the testimony before you. 
 But I will try to aid yon from memoiry, if necessary. 
 
 By Mr. Eioot : 
 
 Q. Captain, when did yoiu first hear the subject of the incireasie 
 of offieersi' Sialarieis discmssed? A. I saw it in the paper. 
 
 Q. When was tiiat? A. During the time I was home, sick. 
 
 Q. And during what time were you home, sick? A. Between 
 the 8tih of March — until, I think, about the 12thl or 13th of 
 Mairch, somewhere along there; I cam't just exactly recall lihe 
 exact date now, but I was at homle between five and six weeksi 
 
 Q. During that! tiime, you saw ih) the paper about the increase 
 of the officers' saiairies'? A. I read thait outj of the paper; yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. During the time that you were at homle, sick? A. Well, 
 now, I can't exactly state what day that wa®, that I read that 
 out of the paper; that portion of it. 
 
 Q. Well, was it bef ore you w^ent homle sick, or during the time 
 when you were at homie sick? A. It is btetweeni the time that I 
 went homle, sick, and now. 
 
 Q. You say that you came out on the 12th or 13th of April, 
 went back to duty? A. I went back to duty about that time. 
 
 Q Well, can^t you tell wheth'eir it was before or after that? 
 A. Not poisitively. 
 
 Q. Hald yoiu heard the subject of the increase of officers' salaries 
 spoken of before you were taken sidk? AL I never had a con- 
 versation with anybody. 
 F. 45 
 
354 
 
 Q. On that subject? A- On tlhat subject. 
 
 Q. Wlxat day did youi say you were taken sick? Al Believed? 
 
 Q. Yes? A. The Sth! of MJairdh. 
 
 Q. Prior to the 8th: of Maroli toad! you even heard of any efEort 
 to get the officers' salaries inctreasedi? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Prior to thie 8th of March, had you ever heard of any bill 
 to giet the officers' salaries itocmeased? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Prior to that day hJad you ever heard th'at thtere was any 
 proptosdti'oini in Albany to increaBe the officers' salaries? A. Xo, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Or thiattt there was any amenidmefnt on, or to be put on, the 
 flipemletn'a saJary bill? A. I didn't hear anything about it. 
 
 Q. Then, when — were you sick in bed, Captain? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Wheott you took to your bed, the isuibject of the increase of 
 thie officers^ salaries hadi nieiver been • presented to your mind? 
 A. Not up to the tLmie thait I have been taken sickL ' 
 
 Q. That is the tune I mentioned in my question; you never 
 had thought abbutt it? A. No^ sir. 
 
 Q. And had never sipOiken to anybody about it? A. No, su: 
 
 Q. And nobody had ever spoken to you about it? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And you had never heard the siuibject mentioned? A. No, 
 sir. I 
 
 Q. Had yom ever heard, pritor to that time, th!at the men, that 
 thie firemen had a bill in the Legislature at Albany to increase 
 their salaries? A. I had read something ajblout it in the paper. 
 
 Q. Had you ever heard It ispoken of? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. "When did you read about it in the paper? A. Before I 
 was taken sick. j 
 
 Q. How long before? A. Well, probably, two or three weeksi. 
 
 Q. Well, yora never heard it mentionied'? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And your only imformation was what youi had read iti some 
 pialper? A. Yes, sir, 
 
 Q. In more than one paper? A. I take the World where I 
 live; it's the paper I read; th'at I have been reading. 
 
 Q. Well, doln't you think you siaiw it in some other papier than 
 the World? A. That's the only piaiper I have been reading. 
 
 Q. Well, youi didn't read it in any other paper than the World? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And you doti't remember ah what issue of the World? A. 
 No, sir; I dbn't. 
 
 Q. And if any attemprtl was being made by amy officer to get 
 the officers' salaries incFeasied by legislation at Albany, it was 
 wholly without your Knowledge? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And if amy kind friend was endeavoring to accomplish 
 that, it was wholly wSth'ouit your knOiwledge? A. Yes, sir. 
 
Q. Aind yoiQ say that not a word was spoken at that interview 
 with Fitzgerald at your house on the subject of the officers' 
 salailes? A. ^o, sir. 
 
 Q. Or on the subject of the men's salaries? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And that not a word was said in your interview, or your 
 excursiioii with Whelajni, oai the 6th of March, if that was the 
 time, on that subject? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. At the time when Fitzgerald ealled upon you at your house 
 on the 12th of March, yiota had never heard of the r-ubject of the 
 incTieasie of officft'iB' salaiies, as I understand it? A. During the 
 time that I was home sioli I read about it in the papers. 
 
 Q. Well, was iihat befoire or after Fitzgerald visited' you? A. 
 Well, I guiess it was after Fitzgerald's visit, because 1 took sick 
 on the 4th and he claims to have visiited me on the 12th; and 
 I haven't looked up the reeord to see if it is &o or not. 
 
 Q. Them, if he visiited youi on the 12th, or about that time, or 
 whenever' he did visit yoiu, yoiu never had heard up toi that time, 
 of the subject of the iincrease of officers^ salaries? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. I aan told that yoiui have mfemtioned the 4th; day of March 
 as the time when yoiu were taken sick? A. I mentioned the 
 8th day of March. 
 
 Q. That was the date? A. Yes, sir; that was the date. 
 
 Q. And you were engaged regularly in the performance of 
 your dtitlies and i^eguiairly at yolur firehouse up to the 8th of 
 March? A. Yes, sir; outside of any business that took me away 
 from there. 
 
 Q. You were regularly performing youj* duties? A. Yes, siiir. 
 
 Q. You say that, Captain, during all your 20 years of expe- 
 rience ih the service, you have made only three or four chargesi 
 against subordinates? A. During my 20 years as an officer. 
 
 Q, As an officer? A. Yes, siir; about three or fooir charges, 
 as near as I can recollect. 
 
 Q. Did you ever make any charge against Fitzgerald? A. Nbl, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever make any charge against Whelan? A. No, 
 siir. 
 
 Q. Or have any quarrel or contrOiverisy with them? A. No 
 quarrel o?r controversy with thtai' in any way, that I can remiem- 
 ber; I spoke to themi a oo»aiple of times, protebiy, for little 
 breaches of discipline that didn't amount to anything, that 
 didn't anwrant to anything, that they rectified when spoken to. 
 
 Q. Have there ever been any unpleasant relations between 
 you and Whalen? A. Not that I know of. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation — did yoiu have more than 
 one conversation with Fitzgerald during the time of your ill- 
 
356 
 
 neais? A. I think Fireman Fitzgerald was at my house twice 
 during my illness; on two different occasions. 
 
 Q. When was tlie siecoind timie? A. I think it was in April. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation with him them about the 
 increase of the salaries? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or about the fund for the siecusring of an increase in salary? 
 A. No, sir. X 
 
 Q. The subject was not alluded to at ail between yow? A No, 
 sir. 
 
 Benjamin A. G-icquel, called by Ml". Baines, being duly swom^ 
 teatifled as foltows. 
 
 Direct examination by Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. You are connected with what company. Captain? A. 
 Chief of the ninth battalion of the New York fire department. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in the department? A. Close on 
 to 30 yeans. 
 
 Q. A member of the officens' organization? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of the |1 a month tax, collected for the 
 expenses of the organization? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Since June last? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Outside of that $1 a month tax, have you paid any assess- 
 ment of any sumi whatever for the purpose of affecting legisla- 
 tion at Albany? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Has any assessm.ent of |30 or |45 been collected among the 
 ofScers> as far as you knoiw? A. I don't know anything about it. 
 
 Q. Have you b^n asked to pay any such assessment? A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Of any sum whatever for legislative purposes? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or did you ever refuse to oontribuite? A. Nobody ever 
 came and asked me. 
 
 Q. Nobody came and asked you? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do yoiu know of any officer having paid any such sum? A. 
 I never had a conversation with any of the officers in relation 
 to the matter at all. 
 
 Q. And you know of no fund whatever being raised, in any 
 manner, or any contribution bteing levied upon them, in con- 
 necition with lile officers' amendment to the flnemen's saliary 
 bill? A. Only whait common report was; that was all. 
 
 •Q. What was thiarti? A. Only what I heard here lafttely, 
 rumons. 
 
 Q. Butaors about the fact thlat; such a fund was being collected? 
 A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. But wMdh! fun^, so far asi our owni knioiwledlge is concerned. 
 
35T 
 
 Ouioisis^exaimlmajtloin hj Mr. Booft!: 
 
 Q. Whieii did you flnsli liear of tlie nimoiris, Qhiief? A. Oh, I 
 coaiildn't tell you, Mr. Eioot; I neyer kept any daites; I iuave been 
 so busy tbat I never paid! any artiten^tilom to it. 
 
 Q. Well, labouit wteu? A. Well, I have listieaedl toi tihie dato 
 hjere, but I paid no attentliioini to it; I presiumle I saw; it in the 
 paiper, but I couldn'tl tell you when. 
 
 Q. You never talked with any offiaer? A. ISTo, sir. 
 
 Q. And never knew ^anything about it? A. No, sir; I never 
 heard that I was charged with it, eiitheri until the otther day. 
 
 Q. You were not charged with it; were you? A. Not as I 
 know of, only what I read in the paper, and I don't know what I 
 am here for. 
 
 Q. You came down hlere to tell us that yora didn^i] know any- 
 thang about it? A. I came here to tell the truthi. 
 
 Q. And the truth ils that you don't know anything about it? 
 A. No, sir; except what I heard. 
 
 Q. There is no testimony here, Gholef, indicatMig that you did? 
 A. Well, I assure you I didn't want toi come dJown, biecausei I 
 couldn't giVe amy informatiion whatever; that I assure you, that 
 I couldn't give any information ikii relation to it; I never knew of 
 any official putting up and I never had any conversation wiltih 
 any officer whatever about it; and I don't knowi why, because I 
 am' friendly with the officers, but I never heard anything about 
 it until I heard that Mr. La Grange mentioned my name, the 
 lOther day, as one of the men that didn't put up-, and I don't know 
 whether he mentioned anything about it, or mentioned me im any 
 way about it, whethJer I did or did not put up', because it is news 
 to mie. 
 
 Q. That is just what ihe said; he said that MoOabie told him 
 that you did not put up? A. And I don't know why MdOabe 
 should say so^; I haven't spoken' toi Chief MciGabe for 15 years; I 
 was not on very Mraidly relatione with himt, and that is what sur- 
 pr4sed me the moist. 
 
 Q. It was an indorsement for you? A. Well, I didn't require 
 it; I didn't ask him for it. 
 
 Q. Well, you got it? A- And' I didn't know that Ohief Bonner 
 had resigned from th'e assoiciation ; I thought that every, officer 
 iki' the fire department belonged to the assoiciation and I did!; and 
 I contributed my dollair here on the first of the mionth, and 1 
 didn't even know who was the oollector of the di'strict, because I 
 thought it was for ai benevolent purpoise, and I believe soi now. 
 
 Q. You didn't knoiw that Chief Bonner had resigned? A. Well, 
 not until some time after; I was never informed of it 
 
358 
 
 Q. How long after ih!e resigned did you hiear of iit? A. Well, 
 I guess it is two or three weekei ago. 
 
 Q. Not until two or three weeks ago? A. No, sdlr; I thinik noit; 
 and I didn't know ' why he resiigmed until I heaird Mm) miake a 
 statemient here on the stand, why he resigned. 
 
 William: W. Brown, oailedl 'by Mr. Eaines, bieiiug duly siworn, 
 testified as follows: 
 
 Direct examiinaitilom by Mr. Bainesi: 
 
 Q. Conneoted with what' company, Gaiptaini? A. Engine 15. 
 
 Q. Caiptaini? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. A member of the officers? orgainizaition ? • A. I ami. 
 
 Q. Do jmi know of the |1 ai mjontlhJ tax collected for tlie pur- 
 poses of the offieer's' aissoiciatibn? A. Yes, sir; I pay it levery 
 month. 
 
 Q. Outside of that tax, Captafiin Brotwn, hare you ever paid 
 any money whatever for legislative pui-poses? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you been asked to pay it? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. -Do you know of any collection whiatever for the purpose 
 of Influencing legislation, or for any purpose whatsoever, out- 
 side of that |1 a month tax? A. No, sir. 
 
 Cross-examination by Mr. EootI: 
 
 Q. CSaptain, did anybody ever talk to you aboiurt: the raising 
 of money? A- Fan the fireman's increase? 
 
 Q. Yes? A. No; all that I know abouib it is what I reaid in the 
 paper; I was not interested in it 
 
 Q. When did you first hear that an effort was being made to 
 get the officers' salaries increased? A. I seen it in the paper 
 in the latter i)art of rebruary, and I was very mmcih' pleased 
 to see it, tool * ; 
 
 Q. Well, can't you fix it amy moirie definitely than tlhat it was 
 in February? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you tell us what part of February it was? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And you dfiidn't talk with anybody about it? A. Na 
 
 Q. You are not on the committee of officers? A. No, siir; I 
 was never to ai meeting of thfe association. 
 
 James G-. Clifford! beingt recalled for further cross^examiinaf 
 tion, testified as follows: i 
 
 Cross-examination by Mr. Raines (eontilniued) : 
 
 Q. Mr. Clifford, were you, at one timie, a member of the Magnet 
 Union Club? A. Yesj, aiil 
 
359 
 
 Q. Weipe j<m, at any tiliiie, treasTiirer of thait clubi? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. When did you paiss out of tliait office? A. About seven 
 years ago. 
 
 Q. Eighteen hundred anid ©ighltjy-ininie? A. Sometikne around 
 that perdiod. 
 
 Q. Dnring the time that yom wietrie trteaisiurer of the club, did 
 you use some m.(m.eys belom^g to that club for private pur- 
 poses? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. To what amount? A. Some^epes in the neighboirhood of 
 one hundred and odd doUana 
 
 Q. Abouit |200? A. About |160. 
 
 Q. For your private purposes? A. Yes, silr. 
 
 Q. And, at the time, a ooimimittee of the clulb' had some tnaos- 
 actions with yoiu in reference, to iti? A. Yes, Mr. 
 
 Q. And, about that time, weme you aiu applioamit for a position 
 in the fire department? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Not at that time? A No, sir; later on I was an applicant 
 ton' the fire department. 
 
 Q. Well, you finally obtained indulgence om thieir part, and 
 they gave you time to pay up? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, did yon pay up at that time? A. I gave a note for 
 the ajmoumt that I was ia airreairs to the association; I was 
 treasurer going on — 
 
 Q. Have you paid that note? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. All of it? A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long since? A. About three years ago, I believe. 
 
 Q. Well, did you pay it by renewing it? A No, sir; I paid 
 it; I left a demand note there and paid it and took the 
 note up. I 
 
 Q. Well, that club was engaged in pushing you for member- 
 ship in the fire department when you were a member of it, was 
 it not? A. No, sir; I wasi soliciting my own! appointment, not 
 through the club's influence or ainythlng else lofi the kind. 
 
 Ex-Assemblyman Thomas J. McManus: — ^Mr. Chairman, my 
 name having been mentioned in connection wiithi the fire depart- 
 ment, I came here to refute the charges that have been made 
 against me. I ami ex- Assemblyman Thomas J. MoManus. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Do yom want to go on the stand? 
 
 Mr. MoManns. — ^I don/t think it is necessairy. ]\% name was 
 only mentioned in hearsay testimony. But if the ooanmittee sees 
 fit to ixut me on the stand, iit is satisfactory to me. 
 
 Senarfar O'Connor. — You may be sworn after this witness has 
 testlfled. 
 
360 
 
 Dairdiel J. Meaghier, called by Mr. Kaines, being duly swom, 
 testified as follows: 
 
 Direct examiniajtiloin, by Mr. Eiaines: 
 
 Q. You are an offioer of the fire department? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. A miember of the officers' orgamizaitiioni? A. Yes^ sir; I 
 'believe so. 
 
 Q. In the Sixthi battaliomi? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. What compamy? A. Hook and Ladder 3, soir. 
 
 Q. Is that the baittaliom oi^ wihich. Homm is a member, toi whSdh 
 he belongs? A. Ye^ sir. 
 
 Q. Do yom know himl? A. Well, yes; silrj asi an officer. 
 
 Q. Do you know of tihe |1 a monli. tax collected by the officers' 
 asBiociation, wMoli ihas been spoken of in detail by Oaptam Bums? 
 A. Yes, sir; but I didn't ihear liilsi testimony. 
 
 Q. Outside of that sum of |1 a month, ihave you paid 'any sum 
 wbiatever far legislaittoin or expenses attending legislation, duiriing 
 this last winter? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you paid any assessmemt of |30 oirl $45 to anybody? 
 A. N^o, sir. 
 
 Q. Has any sucih sum been collected, or any sum wliatever, out- 
 side of the |1 a month tax, by any person in your battalion? A. 
 No, sir; not that I know of. 
 
 Q. Do youi know of Horan doing any coileoting in your bat- 
 talion? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. TIhe director of your battaiion is wto? A. I don't know, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. You don't know? A. No, sir; I was never at a meeting. 
 
 Q. Well, to wbom do you pay the dollar a imontlh? A. Well, 
 to Foreman Aiheam; I was in tihe habit of paiying the dollar a 
 mionth to Tiim. 
 
 Q. Well, ihe is tihe collectoir? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And, outside of that money paid to Aheam, did you ever pay 
 any sum wOtuatever? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You know of no fund being raised toi lexpedite legislation; in 
 regard to the amendment of tihe firemen's salary bill? A. ,Noi, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. To increase the offiioera' salaries? A. No^ sir. 
 
 Thomas J. McMamus, being duly swotm, testified as follows: 
 
 Senator O'Oonnioir. — You may make your statement, Mr. 
 McManus. 
 
 Mr. MoManus. — Well, havitag read in the newspape'ra, Mr. 
 Qhairmiaiii) 'tii^.t I had received some money for am act of mine 
 performed in the Legislature whereby I initroduiced a bill to 
 
361 
 
 imicireaisie tlie firemiea's sailaries^ iin 1893, I camie luere to refute it. 
 The flremiem, tihey' all knioiw, particiularly -the looaniniittie© tkat 
 waited upon me to introdiicie tlieair bill for ani incireaise of salary, 
 that I imtroduciedl it at tiheir request. I was then a minority 
 member, wMcU everyibiody knows throughont tlhis city and State. 
 At their request, I fongM it as best I could. Money was neiver 
 mentioned iu any one manner or the ottlner. TIhe committee /that 
 came to Albany, they came itihere, after ihaving giVeni me th,e bill, 
 at my neqnest, to, appear before the committee toi adTooate the 
 reporting off that bill, in' a faivoirable manner, from! the committee 
 on cities, and tihey know tlhemisielTesi what a laiborious taskl it 
 was to get that bill out of that committee, at the timie that tbey 
 came thene to have it repoirted, or to argue in faror of it bednig 
 faA'crably repiorted. We did get that bill reported on the floor 
 of the ihotuse, and, after beinig on the calend'ai" twoi or three days 
 in the Assembly, and on reaicihing it on the second reading, Mr. 
 Webster, I believe, moved to have it recommitted, and it was 
 recomimitted aaid died in the committee. It isi absurd for Mr. 
 La Grange or anybody else tol come here — 
 
 By Senator O'Connor: 
 
 Q. Well, that is not necessary; when were yoti a member of 
 tlie Assembly? A. In 1892 and 1893. 
 
 By Mr. Balnes: 
 
 Q. Did anybody ajpproaclu yioiu, directly or indirectly, to pay 
 you any money iv! connection wa!th lihose bills? A Never, di- 
 rectly nor indirectly; mon^ was never namied. 
 
 Q. And none wasi ever put in your hands to be used for such 
 a purpose? A. jSTot as much as a penny, and no such thing was 
 ever named. | 
 
 Q. And if John McOabte' or anybody else ever said thiat to Mr. 
 La Grange — A. He stated wbait is untrue; he stated a false- 
 hood ; I have never seen Mr. McOabe in my life, and never spoke 
 to htm, and Mir. La Grange I have never seen or spoken tO' in my 
 life; I wouldn't know halm if I saw Mm in this audience 
 to-day. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Mr. Lai Grange only, assumed to speak of 
 it from information from Mr. MoOabe. 
 
 Mr. McManus. — I deny it as utterly false. I never saw McCabe 
 to know Mitn in my life, and never spoke to him in my life to my 
 knowledge. 
 
 F. 46 
 
862 
 
 Michael E. Beilly, called by Mr. Eaines, beilag duly sworn,, 
 testified as fallows: 
 
 Direct examinatioDi by Mr. Eiaines: 
 
 Q. You are a member of tlie officiers' organizatioca? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What company? A- Eiaginie 5. 
 
 Q. In* what battalion? A. The sdkth battalion. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Horan of thiaA blattalion? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you, at any tiioie, paid any money to Mr. Horan for or 
 on account of any legislation? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do yioiu know of the |1 a month itax, collected by the ofBcers, 
 in connection with the committee work ofi the officiers' organiza- 
 tion? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Outside of thiat tax have yoiu paid amy money to amy person 
 wh'omisioleiver, cm account of thie salary amiendment tdi the salary 
 bill, or fOE any other legislative use duiring the past yeair? A. 
 No, sir. ' 
 
 Q. Mr. Aheaim is the collector of your bteuttalion, is he not? A. 
 Yes, sir; of the battalion. 
 
 Q. Have you had any relations of a business character what- 
 evei", any coiunection whatever ot that kind, with Mr. Horam? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of thte collection of any money whatsoever, 
 in connection with the salary amendment to tte salary bill? 
 A. No, sir; nothing whatever about this. 
 
 Senator O'Connoir. — How many of (these ofScers aire you going 
 to call? i 
 
 Mr. Raines. — I am' going to call one from each company in 
 the sixth battalion', sir; there are six of them altogether. 
 
 Thiomaa Sullivan, called by Mr. Baines, being duly sworn, 
 testified as follows: / ' 
 
 Direct examinatilon byi Mr. Ealines: 
 
 Q. Are you a member of thle officers' organizatibn? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In what company? A. Hook and Ladder No. 11. 
 
 Q. In whart batttalion? A. The sixth. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Horan? A. Mr. Ahearn? 
 
 Q. No; Horan? A. No, sir. i 
 
 Q. Have you, at any time, paid) any money to Mm, or had any 
 financial dealings with him whiatsoever, for any use whatever, 
 in the fire department? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do yom know of the payment, eithler by yourself or by 
 any other person, of any sum whatsoever, for legislatiive use, 
 
in coinineotioin with: thle officers' aimendment to the salary bill? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q.Hav^ j(y[\ been aslsed tol pay anything toward tbe passage 
 of the salary aamendmeint? AL Noi, isir. 
 
 Qross-examinatioini by Max Eoot: 
 
 Q. Did yoiu — are yota a foineimlain;? A. Yes, sir; I am a foreman. 
 
 Q. Of what company? A. Hook and Ladder 11. 
 
 Q. How well d^ yon knOiW Hoiram? A. I know bim, tbat be 
 comes to ireiiieve me fon my meals; the day my assistant foreman 
 is off. 
 
 Q. Did yoiu ever bare any talk with him about tbe salary bill ? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yoiui eyer bear of thie salary bill? A. I did; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Wben da)d yoiu bean of i(t? A. In Tbie Press: 
 
 Q. Never beard of it beifioipe The Press mentioned it? A. No, 
 sir; I nieirer bad a thing tol do with; it; I never botbered myself 
 abonit it. 
 
 Q. Yon blald never beard tbat tbere was sucbi a thing? A:. Ob, 
 yes; I had beard tbat tbere was. 
 
 Q. Wben did you bear tbat first? A. Along about Marcb. 
 
 ,Q. Wbat bill was it? A. Well, I beard there was going to be 
 a liill and tbat is all I Icnow about it. 
 
 Q. A bill for wb!at? A. Plor the imereasie of salaries. 
 
 Q. That's air? A. That's all. 
 
 Q. Did you ever bear tbat tbtere was omie? A. Noi; I didn't 
 
 Q. Never beaid' tbait anything bad been done about it by any- 
 body ? A. I ciouldn't say that I didl 
 
 Thjoinas F. Oomuielly, called by Mr. Kailnes, 'being duly sworn, 
 testified as follows: 
 
 Dinect exaiminatilon by Mr. Elainesi: 
 
 Q. A member of tbe oflflcers' organization? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Oonnected with wbat oomipany? A Engine 28. 
 
 Q. In tbei sixth battalion? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Doi you icnow Officer Hor'an? A. Yesj, sair. 
 
 Q. Do you know OflQcer Ahieam? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of tbe collection' of tbe $1 a montb tax among 
 the officers for tbe pmrposes of tbe aissociiation? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Since June last? A. "^esi, sir. 
 
 Q. Outside of tbe collection of that tax bave you paid any 
 money for legislative purpMes? A. No, sir. 
 
364 
 
 Q. Has amy fund been ooUeoted lor any purpose, outfliilde of the 
 $1 a montb tax? AL Not ttat I know of. 
 
 Q. Yon never paid PO or |45 or any atheT sum? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. To anybody for thie nses of tbe oi"ganization in connection 
 with thieir interests at Albany? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do yon luiow of the payment of any such siua of money by 
 anybody? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or the collectiom of it? A. No, sir. 
 
 Oraas-examination by Mir. Boot: 
 
 Q. Didni't yon aigree to pay some money? A, No, sir. 
 
 Q. Akd you haven't told anybody yioni would? Ai. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Aind mobodly ever asked you? A. No, sir; nobody ever 
 asked me. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of the salairy Mil? A. No, sir; I never 
 heard of it lexcept m the newspapers. 
 
 Q. That Is all you "ever heard abouti it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And when did you hear that, oir reald of it? A. Well, it was 
 around March, I think. 
 
 Q. And you never had amy conversiaition with any otheir officer 
 about it? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Never a word? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And nothing was ever said to you by any other officer about 
 the salary bill? A. Not that I know of; not that I recollect of 
 I can't recollect amybodjy ever sfpeaking toi me about it. 
 
 Q. Had you any interest in' it? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You didn't care wheilher your salary was increased or not? 
 A. Well, yes; I would like to getl ami ilnoneaisie, but it never 
 bothered me. i 
 
 Q. What did you hear about this bill? A. I just simply read 
 it in the paper, where there was an amenidment put toi the bill 
 to inonease our salary; what day of the month it was I could not 
 say. 
 
 Q. And you never spoke labout that to anybody? A. No, sir; 
 not that I cam recollect. 
 
 Q. And nobody ever spoke to you about it? A. No, sir; not 
 that I can recollect. 
 
 Timothy Ahearn, called hj Mr. Biainesv being duly sworn, testi- 
 fied as follows: 
 
 Direct examination by Mr. Eaim&s: 
 
 Q. You are a member of the offioersi' organisation? A. Yes^ 
 
 SIT. 
 
 ( 
 
 Q. Of what compiany? A. Etagine 14. 
 
i 365 
 
 Q. What battalion? A. Sixtli battalion'. 
 
 Q. Hoiw long liave been imthie department? A. Aboiut 14 years. 
 
 Q. Do yon know Officer Horan? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. He is in that battalion:? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever pay him money for any use whatever in the 
 department? A. No^ sir. 
 
 Q. Or fo'r use ini procuring' legislation? A. ISToi, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hatve any transaction witii him of a fluanci'al 
 nature whatsioever at any time? A No^ sir. 
 
 Q. Did youi ever pay hita! f30 or $45 or any other sum? A. 
 No, iSir. 
 
 Q. Have you paid anjy sum to anybody wihatsoever foir the pur- 
 poses of legislation within the past year? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about the payment of $30 or $45 or 
 any other sum whatever, outside of the monthly tax? A No, 
 sir; not outside of the mionthly dues of $1.. 
 
 Q. You are a director of that batttalibn? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you collect the |1 a month taa: for tihiat battalion? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Oross-examinJation by Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of a salairy bill? A. Only what I have 
 read about in the papers. 
 
 ■Q. Wben did you read iabout iti iu the papers? A. Some time 
 in Mardh. 
 
 Q. What did you read about it? A About thie amendment 
 being placed om the firemen's bill. 
 
 Q. You saw that in the papier? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. NOithing else about it:? A. No, sir 
 
 Q. Did you see in the papers that there were rumors that 
 money was u'seid or was to be used tO' get thatJ amendment 
 passed? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever blear of that? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And you never heard the subjelct mentioned? A. No', sir. 
 
 Q. Never in, your life? A. Nevier in my life. 
 
 Q. Did you ever talk with any other officer about that salary 
 bill? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever mentibn it to any other officer? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. AndxuO other officer ever mentioned it to you? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Youi were not interested in it? A. I was only interested 
 in it as a collectoir for the battalion, of thie $1 monthly dues. 
 
 Q. And you aire entairelv indifferent on thisi subject? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. And so far as you know, ©veryboldy else is in the depart- 
 ment? A. Yes, sir. 
 
Isaac Pisiher, called by, Mr. Raines, baiing duly sworn, testified 
 as follows: 
 
 Direct examination by Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. A member of tlie fine department? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The officers' organization ? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. Of wJiat baittalion? A. The sixtb bartifcalion. 
 
 Q. Of what coanpainy? A. Twenty-flvie. 
 
 Q. Emgaine 25? A- Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. Do yoci knoiw Oflaoer Hoiran? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And do you knoiw Offiicer Ahleam? A. I do, sir. 
 
 Q. And do yotu know of thlsi $1 a month tax collected among 
 the officers for the prarposes of tiheiir org'anizatiooti isince June last? 
 A. 1 dlo. 
 
 Q. Outside of that |1 a month tax has amy sum whatever been 
 paid by you to amy peirson' co'nmected with the department for 
 use in coimectiotDi with' legilslationi? A. !Nloi, sir. 
 
 Q. Ot foir amy use whatsoever? Ai No, sir. 
 
 Q. A sum o!f $30 or |45, or any sum whatso'eveir? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you been asted for a contribution of any amount for 
 legislaitive purpoises? Al No, siir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any such fund? A. T do not. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other officers being asked to contribute 
 to it? A. No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. Do youi know of any business that Horan would have with 
 a record of any such payments, any payments of that kind? A. 
 T do not. 
 
 Q. Yoiu have hlad no bbsiness transaictions with him about any 
 funds of any description, whatever? A. No, sir. 
 
 Oross^examinatlon by Mr. Riokat: 
 
 Q. Aire you a member of the legislative committee? A. Am 
 I a member of the legislative commfiittee? 
 
 Q. Yes? A. In reference to the 2 per cent. tax. 
 
 Q. Wlell, you were a membeir of the committee? A. I was a 
 member of the committee. 
 
 Q. Did you evcm hear of a bill to inci-easc tlie officers' salaries? 
 A. I heard there was a bill toi increase the officers' salaries. 
 
 Q. When did you hear that? A. Well, my memory is n little 
 defective as to the exact date, but I was in AlTiany, in relation 
 to the hearings before the city committee, bnt whether it was 
 the first time or the second time or the third time, I am rot 
 positive; we were there, at different dates, and I am not positive 
 of the exact date that I heard it. 
 
367 ^ 
 
 Q. Was that tlie first time that you heard — that you ever 
 heard of a bill to increase the ofiQcers' salaries? A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you never had heard of any such bill before this oi> 
 casiom in Albany? A. Well, I had) never heard of anything but 
 that there was a bill. 
 
 Q. Well, had you heard about amy ajmiendment — had you heard 
 that theme was an amendtnient attached to the firemen's bill? 
 A. Yes, sirj I think I heaird something about that. 
 
 Q. When did you heaa" that? A. Well, that was — I think I 
 saw it in the papers. 
 
 Q. Well, when — you say you had never heard that there t: as 
 a bill, before this occasion, at Albany; had you ever heard that 
 there wajs to be one before that oiceasion in Albany? A. Well, I 
 am not positive aibtout that 
 
 Q. Yoiu were in Albany with the committee? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. On the occasdion that you refer to? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was Captain Burns along? A. Yes, sir'; Captain Bums, 
 Captiain Freel and LieutenaDot Toibin. 
 
 Q- Now, the evidence is tliait the firs* visit of that committee to 
 Albany was on the 5th of Marcih of this year; does that ooir- 
 respond with your reooi lection? A. Well, I am not positive 
 wh,ettiier it was thie 5th; it was either the 5th ot 6th. 
 
 Q. It was either the 5th or 6th? A. Yes, sir; I am not positive 
 alb'out the date. 
 
 Q. And it was on that oiocasion that you first heard th&.t 'tihere 
 was a bill to increiase your salary? A. To the best of my 
 knowledge. 
 
 Q. How did you heair it then? A. I can't tell exactly. 
 
 Q. Can't yon give us any idea^ — -was it from somjebody that 
 you miet there? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. Nobody thart: youi met in Albany? A. I don't think it was, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Was it one of your associates on the ootaimittiee? A. Well, 
 T am not positive about that. 
 
 Q. Well, what is your best reoollectibn? A. Well, I could say- 
 it must be, if I heard it then', that day. 
 
 Q. Well, thfeni, it must have been one of your asisoiciates if 
 wiiether yotu di'd hear it that day' or not? A. Well, now, I am 
 not positive when I heard it, in refepen,cie tb the sialaries. 
 
 Q. Well, whatsis youf best recollection about that? A. Well, 
 I will have toi say that I have noi distinct [reoollection about it. 
 
 Q. Do you know that yora went toi Albany on thie 5th or 6th? 
 ' A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And th^t you went before the cities committee of the 
 Senate? A. Yes, sir; I went before the cities committeie of the 
 AsfiemlbJIjp. ', f i 
 
368 
 
 Q. Whom did you se« im Albany on ttiajt btuiaimess? A. Wlio 
 did I see? 
 
 Q. Yes. A. I don't exactly understand that 
 , Q. Well, I don't want yon to emimeraite all tlie people in Albany 
 tliat yon saw on tihe street, but whom did yon speak to or meet? 
 A. Well, I saw a number of people whio were up there on tllie 
 same business that we were, in reflerence to the 2 per cent, fire- 
 men's matter. 
 
 Q. And people who came up from New York? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Ftrem'en, officersi? A. No, sirj they were miemlbers of the 
 Exempt Firemen's Association. 
 
 Q. Men' then on the other side of that question? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, did you meet anybody in Albany who didn't go up 
 from New York with) you or withi them? A. Not that I 
 recollect. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. Payn there; Mr. Louis F. Payn? A. I think, the 
 second day that we were there, I was introduced to Mr. Payn. in 
 the Senate library, with the other membi^rs of our committee. 
 
 Q. You stayed there two days on that ocoasion; didn't you? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did you stay over night? A. At Keeler's Hoitel. 
 
 Q. Did you meet Mr. Payn' that nig'ht? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Had you learned atoout this bill, about there being a bill to 
 increase youir salaries, before you' met Mr. Paiyn,? A. Well, I am 
 not positive albout that; I can't say. 
 
 Q. Well, di<i you talk abiout it with your associates on the 
 committee before you met Mr. Payn? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Not with any of themi? A. Not with any of them; my 
 impression! is not; but I am not really positive albout that. 
 
 Q. C5an*t you muster up any recollection at all about it? A. 
 Well, counsel, I can^t brilnig it toi mind, in reference to that; I 
 can't. 
 
 Q. I am not asking you now when you heard it first, but can't 
 you wabie up your memory a little, and see if you' can't remember 
 what you hfeard about it on the oiccasi'on of that visit to Albany? 
 A. No, I can't, counsel. 
 
 Q. You can't? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you Ml me whlat you heard about it, at any time what- 
 ever? A. If my meimoiry serves me right, our bill was introduced 
 in the Senate or laJttaldhJed tio the firemen's bill ^nd that I think 
 I saw in the papejcs^ 
 
 Q. Well, when did you see it; at the time it was introduced? 
 A. The morning, I thiink, thiaiti it was published in the papeijs. 
 
 Q. When the fact otf its being introduced or attached was first 
 published? A. Thlartfs thie time. 
 
369 
 
 Q. When the news came in the papers? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, now, thlat was done on the 26th or 27th of Februairy; 
 and in view of that fact, what do yoiu say as to whether you 
 knew of the existemce of that bill, when you were at Albany on 
 the 5th or 6th of March? A. Well, I know nothing about that 
 bill. 
 
 Q. Well, you had seen it in the papers, hadn't you? A. I now 
 recollect of seeing it in the papers. 
 
 Q. Well, didn't you maike any inquiry, about it when you were 
 in Albany? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. It was not mentioned, as between you and any of your aasot 
 oiates on the committee? A. Not to my recollection. 
 
 Q. Can you remember the resalgnation of Chief Bonner? A. 
 Well, I heard of it, some time' alwut the middle of March, or 
 later, that he had resigned. 
 
 Q. Didn't you hear of it until then? A. About that time, Mr. 
 Root, I heaird of it. 
 
 Q. Were you at the meeting of the officers' association on the 
 ith of March ? A. No, sir; I was not. 
 
 Q. Sure about that? A. I am positive, pretty positive. 
 
 Q. Thlat you were not at that meeting? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did your aommittee on legislation have anv meetings? A. 
 We had a meeting, one night, I think, at the quarters of Captain 
 Free!. ' 
 
 Q. What night was that? A. I think it was the 5th of Marcn. 
 
 Q. The 5th of March? A. Yes, sir; I think so, but I am not 
 positive. 
 
 Q. Well, that was the night before you went to Albany, wais 
 it not? A. It must have been, yes; if we went on the 5th; yes; 
 that was the night before we went to Albany. 
 
 Q. Well, the evidence is that Chief Bonner's resignation had 
 been presented to the officers' association on the night befone, the 
 Uh of March; was it not mentioned at this meeting of your com- 
 mittee? A. No, sir; I have no riecollection of it being even men- 
 tioned at that meeting of the committee. 
 
 Q. You havem^'t any reoolleotion 'Jibout it? A. Of his name 
 being mentioned? 
 
 Q. Of his name being mentioned? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or of his resignation? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And you didn't know of the fact wheii you went to Albany 
 on the 5th? A. That he had severed his connecrion? 
 
 Q. Yes? A. i did not. 
 
 Q.- And you didn't know that he had severed it because he dis- 
 approved the action of the offlcers' assocfatiibn in going into 
 r. 47 
 
370 
 
 this increase of salary enterprise? A. No; I never really knew 
 why he severed his conmectioo with it until I heard his evidence 
 on the stand. 
 
 Q. You say that yoiui mjade mo inqulrdes about this bill to in- 
 crease olfloeps' saJaiies, when you and the rest of the committee 
 were in Albany on' the 6th of MJarchi? A. No, sir; to tbe best 
 of my belief I did not. 
 
 Q. You didn't ask Mr. Payn anything about it? A. The only 
 conversation I bad with Mr. Payni was to salute, to acknowl- 
 edge the fiutPoduction, and I never spoke to Mr. Payn since that 
 time, or at any time in my life before that. 
 
 Q. Didn't you take any interest in the increase of your sialaa^? 
 A. Yes, sir; I did. 
 
 Q. And you understood from the paipers tiiat this bdll to 
 increase it was up there in the Legislature a* Albany, anid you 
 were up there, going before a committee of the Legislature; wby 
 didn't you ask somebody how tbe bill was getting along? A. 
 Because I ajm not acquaiinted witihl anyone. 
 
 Q. Well, why didn't you suggest to some of your associates on 
 the oommittee- how the bill was gettimg along? A. Well, I was 
 not there in the iateresit of our salaries. 
 
 Q. Is it passible that nobody in that committee ever mientioned 
 the suJbjeot, or ma;de any inquiry about it, or expressed any 
 curiosity about it while you were up there in Albany ? A. There 
 migM have, on thtedlr owm individ'ual account; I didn't. 
 
 Q. You dined toigetheir, when you were there? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Breakfasted toigether? A. Yes, sir; the committee. 
 
 Q. Yes; the committee breakfasted and dined and supped 
 togethter? A. YeS', sir. 
 
 Q. And none sh-owed the sliglitest interest in this salary bill? 
 A. Well, they mi'gbt bave done so individually. 
 
 Q. But tbey did not to your knowledge? A. No', sir. 
 
 Q. Nothing was said about it, when you werp toigether? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Not one word? A. No, sir; I have no recollection of any- 
 thing that wais said. 
 
 Charles W. Kruiger, callpH by Mr. Balnea, heing duly sworn, 
 testified as follows: 
 
 Direct examination by Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. A member of the officers' organizationi? A. Yp®, sir. 
 Q. Of what oompamiy? A. Hook and Laddpr 9. 
 Q. What? A. Hooik and Ladder 9. 
 
371 
 
 ■Q. And of wliat battelion? A. The iMrd. 
 
 Q. Have yovi, at amy time, comtritoiuted any sran of money, out- 
 side of the |1 a month tax, for .any legislaitiye purpose, for the 
 benefit of the fliie departmenit? A. ISTo, sir. 
 
 Q. Do yon know of tike payment of any |30 or |45 by amy 
 officer, outside of tlie |1 per month tax? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or by any offloer of that snm, leaving out the payment per 
 mionth? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. For any legislative purpose whatsoever? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do yon know of the existence of any alleged corruption 
 fund in connectioto with the amendmient increasing the officers' 
 salaries? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you asJsed to contribute to any such fund? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And yon know of no one contributing to. any such a fund? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Oross-examination by Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. Captain, are you a foremiam? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And yon never heard abont the salary bill, I suyipose? A. 
 Yes, siir. 
 
 Q. What? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What — you have heard of it? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 •i. Well, you are the best witness I have run across for some 
 time; you really did hear that there was a salary bill? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Well, now, when did yon hear that? A. Oh, I have heard 
 of it since the last three months. 
 
 Q. Since this investigation started? A. No; before. 
 
 Q. Well, how long before? A. Well, I don't know; there was 
 an 'airtiole in the Herald tihat made mention of the ORiobertson bill, 
 of the officers' bill, being attached to the Pavey bill in the 
 Legislature. 
 
 Q. You say that yon saw it at the time it was pulilished? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that was published at the time the officers' bill or 
 amendment wiais hitched on? A. Yes, siir. 
 
 Q. And is that the same arilole thart contained the statement 
 that money was being raised for that pnrpoise? A. I dbn't 
 think soi; I don't remember; I don't remembier thait part of the 
 statement abont money. 
 
 Q. Well, about that time? A. Oh, no; it was atfiter that. 
 
 Q. How long after? A. Well, I don't know. 
 Q. Well, abont bow long? A. I d'on't know exactly; I didn't 
 pay enough attention j<'' it- 
 
372 
 
 Q. Well, a*week? A. Well, I wiould say a week or tw<y weeks; 
 I didn't pay amy attemtikni to it; I didn't pay any particular 
 attentSlon to it 
 
 Q. Weill, yioiui isay it might have been a week or two weeks 
 after this first artid'e tihiart yoni saw another article? A. Well, 
 I wouldn't confine it tloi a week or a month; it was siome time; 
 I didn't pay any piarticnlair attentiloni toi the dates; I know I 
 didn't pay much attention to the matter, 'exioept that I was glad 
 that there wais snidh a bill. 
 
 Q. Alnd you congratulated yourself, when you saw the airticle 
 starting that money had been pnt up in connection with that 
 bill? A. No, sir; I dongratuilated myself on the first matter. 
 
 Q. Was it not when yon saw the first artiicle? A^ No, sir; 
 when T saw that the officers' bill had been introduced. 
 
 Q. Well, the second article didn't make you congratulate your- 
 self at aJl? A. No, sir; I didtai't see that there wasi anything 
 in that, and if there was, I didn't know anything aibont it 
 
 Q. Well, did you talk with anyWody abont it? A. Well, yes; 
 in a geneinal way. 
 
 Q. Well, dfd yon talk abont the bill with amyhoAj? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or did anybody talk with! you abont it? A.. No, su-. 
 
 Q. You never heard anybody discniBs the snibject, or heard of 
 anybody discuissdhig the subject, about this officers' salary biill? 
 A. Only in a general way. 
 
 Q. Well, did you in a general way? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When? A. After the ptiblioation in some paper; in The 
 Press. 
 
 Q. Well, when was it — two weeks ago — that article of two 
 weeks ago? A. Yes, sir. , 
 
 Q. The publication of the 18th of April? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And, before that time, you never haJd talked with anybody 
 about this salary bill, and nobody had ever talked with yon 
 abont it? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And yon never had heard any disraiission alboiut it? A. 
 W'^11, 1 he^ard discniasion. 
 
 Q. Before that tSime? A'. About that lime. 
 
 Q. I mean, before that aii-tinle in The Press was published? 
 A. Before the article in The Preas was publiisiherl. 
 
 Q. Yoiu had heard discnisslon o(P the salary bill? A. Yes sir. 
 
 Q. And who had yon heard discusis it? A. The men, in quar'tfvrs! 
 
 Q. The men? A. Yes, sir. i 
 
 Q. Not the officers? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. But thte firemen themselves? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, what di'scussifen had yon heard there? A. Well I 
 heia:rd, in a general way, that soimebody that the firemen was 
 
373 
 
 intenesitedi in wanted eTidence, and for them to keep their eyes 
 and eairs cleai-. 
 
 Q. Thiat was belore the article in The Press? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And when did you hleai- the men begin to say that? A. 
 Well, tha/t was in that weiek. 
 
 Q. Witlhin the wieek of the airticle appearing? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 ■Q. Well, prior to that, had you ever heard any discussion of 
 the bill? A. Yes, sir; they were speaking of it right along in 
 regard to the amendniienit that wasi placed on to the bill. 
 
 Q. Well, who spoke about it? A. The men; they were not 
 addressing me, but it was all in one roiomi 
 
 Q. Well, what had they been saying about it? A. Well, they 
 wanted to go on their own bill and didn't want the amendment. 
 
 Q. Well, when did you flirsit hear them begin toi talk in that 
 way? A. Well, that was after the amendment was attached. 
 
 Q. Juist as soon asi the news came of the amiendment they 
 began to talk in that way; did they? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you never heard any offieer talk about it? A. No, sir; 
 not only in a general way. 
 
 Q. Well, did you in a general way? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, what do you mean by that? A. Well, that there 
 was a 'bill in our behalf in the Legislature. 
 
 Q. Well, what of it? A. That was all. 
 
 Q. That was all? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. No officer ever said anything else but that to youi about 
 that? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And you never said lanythtng but thiat to any other officer 
 about that? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Attd you never, inquired how the bill wa.s getting along? 
 A. No, sir; I only watched the papers. 
 
 Q. And you didn't know who was in charge of it? A. I did not. 
 
 Q. What? A. Only what I seen in the papers, that Senator 
 "Robertison had introduced it and thai he had charge of it. 
 
 Q. And you knew notthing else aibout it? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And you never heard of any officer making any inquiry 
 about it? A. No, siir. 
 
 Abrah'am G-ruber, called by Mr. Eaiaes, being duly sworn, testi- 
 fied as follows:' 
 
 Dlreot examinartiion by Mr. Eiaines: 
 
 Q. Mr. Gruber, where doi you reside? A. In the city. 
 
 Q. And in what part of it? A. One hundreid and fifty-two 
 West Ninetif-fifth street. 
 
 Q. And are you a neighbor of Mr. Quigg's? A. Well, you 
 wouldn't call it a neighlbor down here. 
 
374 
 
 Q. Well, how meajT to him do you reside? A. About a mile 
 away. 
 
 Q. Well, thafs not far, im New Yort; you live im tihie same 
 congressional district? A. Yes, sir; in the same congressional 
 district. 
 
 Q. You are acqnainitJed with Mr. Quigg? A. I am. 
 
 Q- Well acquainted with him? A. Quite well acquainted with 
 him; yes^ sir. 
 
 Q- Was there a tikne when Mr. Quigg talked with you upon the 
 subject of the judicial sales bill, or were you present at any 
 STich 'danyersation that was carried on? A. 1 h.u've talked with 
 him abou,t it; yes. 
 
 Q. When did you first hear him talking about it? A. Well, 1 
 can^t fix the time. 
 
 Q. What momrth, if you cam? A. Probably we talked upou that 
 subject two or three times in the last three miouths. 
 
 Q. In the last three months? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the latest conversation would be about what time? A 
 About a month ago. 
 
 Q. Will you kindly tell me what he had to say about it? A. 
 He said that he thought it was a good! bill and ought to be — 
 
 Mr. Eooit. — Well, is it worth while to take up tikne with that. 
 
 Senator O'Oonnior. — What is that? Abtout what? 
 
 Mr. Raines. — About the judicial sales bill. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — On the theory that this was a. malicious 
 publicatiion, on aocount of the attitude of Senators Eaines and 
 Coggeshall on that bill, I will allow ilt. 
 
 By Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. G*o on, please, and tell us what he said? A. He said that 
 it was a good bill and ought to be passed. 
 
 Q. I want you to go into details, Mr. Grruber, andl will yoii 
 tell us what he said in regard to the opposition, and as to the 
 persons connected with that oppoisdttion? A There were no de- 
 tails that I remeniiber, in the mentioning of names, whenever 1 
 talked with hikn about that bill at all. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you what his iinterest in connection with that 
 bill was? A. He said that he wionld like to see it passed. 
 
 Q. Well, did he tell you hbw he was interested personal 1\? 
 A. I can't sa^ that he saiiid' thiat he was personally interested. 
 
 Q. Did he say how he was interested? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. Or hbiw he hiad an interest in it? A. ISToi, sir. 
 
 Q. What did he say about the persons who were interested in 
 it? A. Well, he siaid several of his consitituients were interested 
 in It. 4 
 
37S 
 
 Q. Well, in what particular way didi he say that thiey were 
 intwested in it? A. They were interested in thfe passage of 
 the bill because tliej- were coniniectied with the exohange. 
 
 Q. Did he giv^ theita naimies? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he say why he took sioi mucin interest in gratifying 
 them in regard to the bill? A. Na 
 
 Q. Did hie startle that it was only becausie th,ey lived in his 
 congresisiomal district, or that they had aided himi in a political 
 way? 
 
 Sematbir O'CoDnor. — Well, Mr. Gruibeir is a pretty ilntlelligent 
 man; let hiim give whatever reasons or groiunds there were. 
 
 The Witness. — Well, it may thiroiw some light an' the matter 
 by my sajying ithat I am in the habit lof meeting Mr. Quigg once 
 a week. He lives in onr dalsteict and we are both politicians, or 
 rather, exouse me, hb is a stateslman and I am a politician, and 
 we talk aboiut the attituide of the pairt|y on different questions 
 and about bills pending in the Legislature; and! alu' regard to 
 this bill, I can^t say^ that he ever mentioned any names at all. 
 
 By Mr. Ra,ines: 
 
 Q. Now, what I want to get at is, what feeling he manifesited 
 in regard to the oppoisitiiloini to the judicial sales bill? A. Well, 
 I can't say that he showed any particular opposition to any 
 particular meni in regard to the bill; his feelShga were in ifiavor 
 of the passage, and conflnedj miainly to that; that it was a good 
 bill and ought to be passed. 
 
 Q. Yes; and what did he say iln regard toi the men whO' opposed 
 it, without speicifying names? A. I can't say that he made use 
 of any expressions against people who lopposed it. 
 
 Q. Did he say bitter things about thfe oppiositioln'? A. Not 
 particularly; mo. 
 
 Q. Not partioularly? A. Nlo. 
 
 Q- Well, what did he say; tell us and then we can detennlne? 
 A. Well, I can't repeat Ms words to you, Mr. Raines; it is absoi- 
 lutely impossible to do it; we talked about aui hbur or an hour 
 and a half about various subjects^ and we agreed on some sub- 
 jects and disagreed on oth'erisi, and this is a ibSll we talked about. 
 
 Q. And he seemed much concerned to secure the passaige of it? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do. you reiciollect your last conversation with him particu- 
 larly? A. Nlcs sir.. 
 
 Q. About a month' ago? A. No, sir; not particularly. 
 
 Q. Can you tell me anything that he said in that conversa- 
 tion? A. Not specifically; no. 
 
376 
 
 Q. Well, can yotu give me the substance of it? A. Well, yes; 
 gemeraily. 
 
 Mr. Boot. — Of anythiag that lie said? 
 
 Mr. EaJmes. — Yes; the substance of it. 
 
 T!he WitnesiSi — Yes:; gemeraily; thait the bill ougbiti to be passed. 
 
 Q. Well, didn't lie allude to his feelimgs towards anybody 
 wlio was opposung the bill, at tliatl time, in that oomversation? 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. He, in no way, gaive expression to it? A. No', sir. 
 
 Q. Did lie, in the conversation, speak of the opposition, or what 
 lie would do to the oppoisition? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or what ongiht to be done to them? A. No, sir; not in con- 
 nection with that bill, at all. 
 
 Q. Not ini oO'imectioni with^ that bill? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, you have, have youi not charaoteiriized' this conversa- 
 tion a,s showing a good deal of bitterness on Mb part; haven't 
 you? A, Well, not so much bitterness against his opponents as 
 his intensity of desire toi see the bill pass. 
 
 Mr. Boot. — And a great many Bepublicans, down here, feel 
 that way, Mr. Baines. 
 
 'By Mr. Baines: 
 
 Q. Well, now — i 
 
 Mr. Grruiber. — ■ But they have more intemsity of feeling towards 
 the opposition. 
 
 By Mr. Baines: 
 
 Q. Well, now, you are one of the persons who advocated this 
 judicial sales bill? A. No, sir; I had no interest ait all in it, and 
 took no position in' regard toi it at all. 
 
 Q. Well, you favored it in a general way? A. Well, there was 
 a time when all of us were iin favor of everything ttot was marked 
 " Befoirmi." 
 
 Q. TPhe label was enoug'h? A. Yes, sir; sometimes it was not 
 a good trade-mark, though. 
 
 Q. But, since the label has passed into so many hands, it bias 
 been purti to had uses isome times? A. Yes, sir; we don't take a® 
 mndh stock la it as we did. 
 
 Q. Well, then, you can't call to mind any of the names thart he 
 mentioned, as of persons whkji were interested in the judicial 
 sales bill? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of amy persomis thaib were interested in the 
 passage of the judicial siales bill iin your dis'trict? A. Not one. 
 
 Q. Not one? A. No, sir. • 
 
377 
 
 Q. 1)0 you know of somie persons who contributed to Mr. 
 Quigg's canvass for Congress? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Or to the expenses of it? A. Yesi, -sir; toi hoih. 
 
 Q. Did you assist in raiisinig tlie money yourself, or — ? A. 
 Yes,* sir. 
 
 Q. Did you turn some of it over toi Mr. Quigg? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Nofti any of it? A. No, sir; I don't believe I paid him any 
 of the money at all. 
 
 Q. Did you pass any of tlie oheciks over to hims? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Not one check? A. No, sir; not that I have any recollec- 
 tion odr. 
 
 Q. Now, just burnish your memory for a moment, and see if 
 you didn't hand hiliml a check? A. I am pretty sure I didn't; I 
 am quite sure I didn't. 
 
 Q. What you collected was transferred to Mr. Eimstein or Mr. 
 Leary; was it not? A. Both of them reioeived money from me in 
 checks. 
 
 Q. About how muich? 
 
 Mr. Boot. — Can this be material toi this tuiquiry? 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Well, it can't do much harm. 
 
 A. Well, I suppose '|1,000, in both campaigns. 
 
 Q. Well, the last campaign pariticularly? A. Well, about |600 
 or |700. 
 
 Q. Well, do youi say positively that none of that money was 
 delivered by you to Mr. Quigg persofflally? A. Well, I say it as 
 positively as any man can who has no recollection; that it was 
 f ROO or 1700. 
 
 Q. Now, can you say that none of the persons who delivered 
 checks to you for Mr. Quigiy's campiagn had no interest in the 
 judicial sales bill? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. Or were interested in the real estate exchange; none of 
 the persona whose money you handled? A. I am positive they 
 didn't; none of them. 
 
 Q. None of themi? A. No^ sir. 
 
 John H. White, called by Mr. Raines, being duly sworn, testi- 
 fied as follows: 
 
 Direct examimation by Mr. ElaSnes: 
 
 Q. Youi are a member of the officers' organization? A. Yes', sir. 
 
 Q. Of what 6ompany? A. Engine company No. 12. 
 
 Q. How long have you been connected with the department? 
 A. Going on 21 years, nearly 21 ye'airs. 
 
 Q. Have you, at any time, duriilng the past year paid any money 
 for the uses of the department, in connection wilth legislation, 
 
 F. as 
 
378 
 
 outside of ilie fl a momth tax spoiken of by CSaptain Burnisi? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of tlie pia^yment of any nxomey by any officers, 
 yourself or any other, of po or |45, in connection with: the 
 passage of this salary amendtnaent? A. Ho, salr. * 
 
 Q. To the firemen's increase of salary bSll? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or of any applicatSom for any suchi payment to any officer 
 of the department? A. No, sir. 
 
 CSross-exiaminaition by Mr. Booti: 
 
 Q. Did you eyer hear of the bill to increase the officers' sala- 
 ries? A. Yes, eke. 
 
 Q. Whlenl did you hiear of it? A. Well, I coiuJd not say exactly; 
 I read it in tihe papers at the tikne, and then I heard of the 
 amendment to incretase the salaries. 
 
 Q. Did thie men appear to be mad about it? A. Well, the men 
 that spoke about it didn't appear to be very mad. 
 
 Q. And ypuj never talked with amy officer ajbloiut alt? A. Noi, si)-. 
 
 Q. And you neveiri heard any officer talk about it? A. Not at 
 that time; I have sdJnioe. 
 
 Q. Since wlien? A. Well, since the publication in the papers. 
 
 Q. But before that, you never beard any offic'er mention it? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Anidi you haVe never mentioned it to any officers? A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. And you never hieard it ddisousseid at all ? A. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Eiaines. — I wilsih to ask Mr. Howard some questions, a few 
 questions, without the administration of the oath, I waii\'e that, 
 pertinent to tlie investigattibn. 
 
 Mr. Boot. — I don't know about tbat. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — Well, it is pertinent to the investigatiiou. 
 
 Mr. Eoot. — But he has had no relations with this i-ase except 
 as counsel. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — You can't ask hSim about any thing, thai 
 he has learned as counsel. 
 
 Mr. Riaanes. — Oh, no; it is puirely a matter of statement for 
 the record. 
 
 Mr. EiOot. — Very well; he may do as he likes about it. 
 
 Mr. Boiward. — I think I shall decline to answer any qiiesitions 
 on any miartter that is privileged. As an attorney I should feel 
 great diffidence in approadhlEng even any subject lof that Mnd. 
 
 Mr. Railnes. — I shall not aJsk anything that it would be im- 
 pi^oiper for you to state as a lawyer. I want tO' locate times and 
 occurrences only. However, I will mot call youi now. There are 
 
379 
 
 officers hiere wlio migliti be exu/miinied at any poinib wliiere tlie oom- 
 inittee maikies the siuggestiloii. If there is no- sucih saggeBtioo, we 
 shall feel ^thast we imve ainswere'd. the pTirpo'ses of this inTestigar 
 tion with regard to tIMs line of testimomiy, hwb we doi not feel at 
 liberty to stop of our own motion. 
 
 Senator O'CJonnor. — The opinion of the committee is that we 
 will not come down herel again, and that this' inivestigation will 
 be closed on Tuesday and Wednesday evening. We have got 
 until the 10th, and we are very busy, flnishjiaig up leigislatiVe 
 businesSi and tihas kind of evidence that we haive been taking 
 here it seemis to me wonld' be a waste of time. It all seems to be 
 negative evidenoe. 
 
 Mr. Rainesv — Very satisfying, however, as to the substantial 
 fact, as to whether thtene was a fund raised. I wonid like to ha.^'e 
 the committee order Oaptaini Burns and Captain Graham to 
 attend at the session on Tuesday evening. 
 
 Senaitor O'Connor. — Are they here? Have tbey been sub- 
 poenaed'? , ' I ' M i 
 
 Mr. Eiaines. — Yes> sir; but I want thiem especially ordered to- be 
 there, I want them tol be ordered to- be there. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Yest The investigation will be con- 
 tinued in 13ie committee rooms of the Senate, at Albany, at half- 
 past 7 o'clock on Tresday evening. You can have Tuesday and 
 Wednesday evening. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — -Well, will you give the order that G-raiiam and 
 Bum® appear there? 
 
 Senato(r O'Connor. — Very well. Isi there any other fa:ct, Mr. 
 Boot, that yon know of that we can put in in this matter. 
 
 Mr. Eiaines. — I would state that we expected tO' go intoi the 
 subject of the -suicide of MoCaibe, and we had subpoenaed a wit- 
 ness to commence that investigation, whoi should be the first 
 witness, on that inquiry, but the witness is too ill, and the 
 sergeant-at-arms, I believe, has been furnished' by a physician 
 with a oertifloate to tihe effect thafl^the witness is too ill to appear, 
 and, until the witness is bettter we oani not continuje that line of 
 investigation. We shall oertjatnly exploit the alleged suJicide of 
 McOabe, as hjaving little or noitihing to doi with this inveatigaition. 
 So Oommiissioner La Girange will not die a suicide himself on 
 that aicconnt, on aooonnt of the burden of that act. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Have you any other witnessi here to-day? 
 
 Mr. Boot. — No; he is fumishuig ai substitute for witnesses. 
 
 Mr. Baines. — 'No; I ami stating ai fact. 
 
 Mr. Boot. — He is giWng sauce iinistiead of meat. 
 
 Mr. Baines. — "No; I am trying to' aid yon, Mr. BootI, because 
 I heard you want to leave here at this time. 
 
380 
 
 Senaitor O'Gomnor. — Well, nofw, tJie furtiker h-eaMmg af tihas 
 matter is adjommeid tmtil Thiesday mgM, at tihie judicdairy com- 
 mittee's roiam, at Albany, at half-past 7 oi'elook iui tJie evening. 
 We will aontinue tlhie investigation until 12 or 1 o^ciociki in tihe 
 evening and all night, if neoessiary. 
 
 Committee <;onvened at Assembly Obamber, Albany, N. Y., 
 May 7, 1895, pursuarat to adjournment. 
 
 Present. — Senator O'Connor, chairman, and Senators Pooind, 
 Mullin, Parker and Oantor. 
 
 James D. Clifford, being recaJled and ftirther examined by Mr. 
 Kaines, testified as follows: 
 
 - Q. Mr. Cliffoird, when did you form the acquaintance of John 
 McCabe? A. I was never aicquiainted with him only as an official 
 in the fire department; I knew he wasi a deputy chief of the 
 tire depairbment, but I never was acquainted wilii him besides 
 that. 
 
 Q. When did you first have amy conversatiion with him? A. I 
 don't believe I ever hlaid any oonversation with hnim, unless in 
 his official capacity as chief of the fire department. 
 
 Q. Dudkig liie last y^ir have you hiad any conversation with 
 him? A NOi sir. 
 
 Q. Do yon know a member ol the fire department by the uialme 
 of Fergus? A. Yes, siif; he is a member of our association. 
 
 Q. Etuigene Ftergns? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is he in Engine 34? A. I don't know what company he 
 belongs to. 
 
 Q. When did you last talk with him? A. About som©wh!eres 
 in the neigjhborhlooid of eight or nine months ago, on associaition 
 maltters. 
 
 Q. When did yoni liast talk with Mm, regai-dless of whiat mat- 
 ters? A. I can't definitely siay that; I have had very little con- 
 versation wi>t!hl Fetcigua 
 
 Q. Have you had a talk with himi within the last month or 
 two? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Pergiuis talk with you. about the siaJary bill? A. 
 No, silr; I don't believe he dlid. 
 
 Q. You saiy you have not hjad any conversation with him in a 
 month or two? A. No, sir; he was in a little kind of diffloulty 
 in the associatioii', and I don't beliieve I have hIad any conversa- 
 tion with him ontside of thtot 
 
381 
 
 Q. How long ago was tilnat? A. EigM or inine months ago. 
 
 Q. Have yon been with! him tohday? A. Yes, sir; I met him 
 on the train. 
 
 Q. Did yon ride together ? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. We're you talking with him to-day? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Hofw faa" did you ride together and talk toigether? A. Prom 
 the Ginand) Central depot to Albany. 
 
 Q. Why didn't you tell me that when I asked youi when you 
 last tailked with him? A. I didni't thlink loif that; of course, we 
 came in together and were speaking on the way up; he asked 
 me whlat he wais subpoenaed up here for, and I told him that I 
 did not know. 
 
 Q. When did you and Fergus have a talk first about the salary 
 bill? A. I never had a tailk with Fergus on the salary bill. 
 
 Q. Wh'en did you have a talk with him. about raising the 
 salaries of fljremeni? A. We didn't talk about it 
 
 Q. When' did you and Feiigus talk about that matter? A. I 
 had no conversation with Fergus outside of a few remarks on 
 the saJajry bill. 
 
 Q. Those are what I am after, when was that? A. I oan't say. 
 
 Q. (jive us your best i-ecollection? A. Just about the time 
 we were startihg in toi get our salaries raised. 
 
 Q. When was it, in January or February? A. I can't say that. 
 
 Q. Grive me thoise few remarks? A. I do not know as he said 
 anything to me any more than other firemen about having our 
 salaries increased, and tliat he would be glad to haive them 
 increased. 
 
 Q. Is there any way that you can refresh your memory as to 
 what month the talk wais in? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Since the bill wials introduced in the Legislature, in the 
 Assembly? A. No, sir; I don't believe it was. 
 
 Q. Was it betfore that time? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. iSinee the 1st of January? A. No, sir; I don't believe I have 
 seen him since then. 
 
 Q. You do not believe it is since the 1st of January? A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. When did you and he have a talk about John McCabe? A. 
 I do not think he ever mentioned Joihn McCabe to me; he never 
 did. 
 
 Q. Didn't you talk about Mm to-iday? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Why did- you say he never mentioned Johtti' McCabe? A. 
 That was to-day; we were sjyeaking abbut the death of John 
 McCabe. 
 
 Q. And why he died? A. And why he died. 
 
Bj82 
 
 Q. Thiat was so Peoent thiat yom hjaid forgotten itt? A. Just 
 
 to-day. 
 
 Q. "Wlhien, befoane to-day, did yora and Ferguisi have a talk about 
 John McCabe? A. I never reomember otf speaiking to Mm about 
 John McCiabe in my life. 
 
 Q. Was there a time when he camie to yooi and made some 
 reference about aiding in some way the passage of the firemen's 
 salary bill? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You are piosdttive about that? A. Yes, sit., 
 
 Q. Did you ever meet Fergus with John McGabe? A. Never. 
 
 Q. Did Fergus everi suggest that John McCabe could be of 
 use to you in passing the firemen's bill? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Never any talk betweem you amd him about getting McOabe 
 and a'sing Mm M the pasisaige of the firemen's bill? A. No-, sir. 
 
 Q. You never saw McCabe on the subject, did you? A. No, sir; 
 I never saw McCabe since he Was retiiied from the fire depart- 
 ment. 
 
 Q. Were you informed in' aJny manner that you coniid get 
 ."ifcCabe to go up to Albany amd assist in the passa;ge of the 
 lireinien's bill ? A. I heard that as ai kind of a rumor from several 
 people, that John MoOabe wais to be at Albany and could be of 
 Kome service to us. 
 
 Q. Who told you that? A. I can't say; several mjembf«rs of 
 the fire department. 
 
 Q. Draw on youc mind again and see whether Fergus didn't 
 suggest that? A. He did mot; positively no; I would take no 
 suggestions from Fergus for the last eight or nine months. 
 
 Q. Tell me who it was suggested that McCabe could be of 
 service at Albany? A. Th!at I don't know; it came to me in 
 the way of rumor. 
 
 Q. Someboidy told youi? A. I could not locate Who it was 
 told me; I know it was not Fergus. 
 
 Q. When' did it come to you that McOabe could be made use- 
 ful to you lat Albany? A. About the time was introduced. 
 
 Q. Some firemen did tell you? A. Yes, sir; I don't know who 
 it was; I could not place him. 
 
 Q. What suiggestion was made to yoiu with refereure to it; 
 did you seie McCabe? A. Noi, silr. 
 
 Q. Was the suggestion that you meet MoCabte? A. No, sir; 
 the suggestion wais that MoOabe would be at Albany, and that 
 perhaps he could be of some use to you in regard to the siaJ'atry 
 bill; but having the salary bill in good hand's I would not take 
 suggestions from 'anybody. 
 
 Q. What was it suggested he could do? A. Th^at is about aill; 
 
883 
 
 that he cotiitid help tihe bill along; tWat he was goitog to be here 
 during the session ol the Legislature. 
 
 Q. On whatt business? A. I don't know; he was supposed to 
 be here looking afteap thie interesits of such bills. 
 
 Q. That wais tihe way it was presented to you? A. Yes, sir; 
 it was kind' of a well Imown fact at the time; that ite, it was 
 conoedted to be a fact thiart he woiuld be in Albany. 
 
 Q. Engaged in promoting legislation? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that his serTices oould be got to aiid' your bill? A. 
 That he womldl be a veiry good man and that we could have him 
 to fuTlihier the interests of the salary bill. 
 
 Q. Thaft is, if he was employed to do it? A. I didn't under- 
 stand it that way; I under'stood John McOabe was very much, 
 interested in the fire departknent and in its members and was 
 willing to serve us ib any caipacity to aid in furthei-ing our in- 
 terests, because he. knew our business and knew we deserved 
 consideration, and he woiuld do all he could for us. 
 
 Q. The point is> how did they suggest to you the fact of in- 
 teresting McOabe? A. That is aboiuft all there was; I dismissed 
 the subject immediately the moment anyboidy spoke about Mm. 
 
 Q. hW many came to yon on that subject? A. I do not be- 
 lieve — it came this waj' ; it was spoken of in the associatiiom.' 
 
 Q. Do youi recollect all the places somebody spoke to you 
 about McCabe? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Wliy did you say it was spoken of afc meetings of the asso- 
 ciation? A. Different members wonld make suggestions at 
 meetings. 
 
 Q. And would they make them on the street, wherever they 
 met youi? A. Very seldom on the street. 
 
 Q. Some ciome to your place of emipltoyment and made sug- 
 gestions to you? A. Yes, sir; sometimes. 
 
 Q. Where all these suggestions were made you d'on't know? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Whether the persons came to look you up at the fire-hjotuse 
 or on the street, or whether it was a casual meeting, you do riot 
 Joiow? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yon bring to the attention of any of your officers the 
 suggestion that McCabe was going to be at Albany and could 
 be of nse? A. T beliteve I spoke about it. 
 
 Q. To whom? A. I can't say; to those men' interested in tlie 
 le:gisla,taton. 
 
 Q. To yorur committee? A. I do not think T did at all, since 
 I was desirous of keeping M':'<'nbe and f^veryhody else away 
 from our bill. 
 
384 
 
 Q. To whom did you mention it? A. I can not say; it was a 
 matter of little moment; I suppose I spoike about ilt in a casual 
 way to iseveral; I diidm't suppose tliere was any importance in 
 it; I did not think it was of amy value. 
 
 Q. Can you tell the precise atrrangement they told you to 
 malte? A. No, sir; no ajranigementi lat all entered intO' of that 
 kind, and: no idea to make any amnangement withj any persom in 
 conneotton with McOabe. 
 
 Eugene J. Fergus, being sworn as a witness and examined by 
 -Mr. Eaines, testified as follows: 
 
 Q. "P^^ifn did you form the' acquaintance of McOabe? A. I 
 ha.ve known him 12 T(;ars. 
 
 Q. Tlas he been one of your intitmate friends? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Has he had to do witih your advainpement to some extent? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you expecting him to aid you in the way of promotion? 
 .\. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. He was a close frienid of yoiuirisl? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there a time wheui you and McOabe hiaid a talk about 
 the flrem'en's saliaipy bill thils winter? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When was it? A. Way back in Novemberi; I don't redol- 
 loct now; I don't know what month it was, whetter October or 
 Xovember. 
 
 Q. You continued to talk down to what time? A. Every once 
 in a while; we would meet pvery niffht T was off. 
 
 Q. When was the last yon saw McOabe? A. In the raominp: 
 about 8..30 before he died; I rnet him in Ms own house. 
 
 Q. AVhat was the subject of oonveiisation between you and 
 him? A. He said to me, "Ferg, I am going." 
 
 Q. When did yoiu and he first have a talk about his taking 
 an interest in the salatry bill? A. October or November. 
 
 Q. How came the subject up between you and him? A. He 
 said, "I understand the flmineu are trying to get an increasi' 
 of salarv-," and he said, "It ought to go throug'h; it is a popular 
 measure;" I do not Icnow what else he did say now; we haid so 
 many conversations. 
 
 Q. After sotae talk was it amraingpd that yon should see some 
 I>arti€s with reference to his being itnterested in the bill? A. 
 No; he asked me to go and see these people for somebody else; 
 a man named Leary and G^eorge Norton. 
 
 Q. When was this? A. I can't recollect the date oi- monthi; it 
 was in October or Noivemlbleiri. 
 
 Q. May have been latter in the winiter? A. No, sih 
 
 Q. now many times did you talk about It? A. Very often. 
 
385 
 
 Q. Eunniiig down how many months? A. I can't say. 
 
 Q. As late as March? A. No, sir; I dion't suppose after De- 
 cember. 
 
 Q. Tell the exact conversation between you and MciOabe? A. 
 I can't recollect it now. 
 
 Q. Give yonr best recollection' .A.. He said he understooul we 
 were jyoing to have a bill introdur^ed foi; an inoflease of! salary; 
 he said it was a popular measure and ought toi go through all 
 right; I don't recollect anything else. 
 
 Q. What about Leary and the rest? A. He told me he knew 
 several men who would help the bill along; he asked rae who 
 had comlrol of it, and I told him I did not know, that I was not 
 in the aissociation; I was a susperided member; I was suspended 
 eight monthsi; I did go at one time a few diays after I had this 
 conversation ; I dild go. and see Firemiain Clifford, but I guess he 
 forgets it; he was busy at the time. 
 
 Q. State the comversiation with Clifford? A. I said to^ him 
 that I kmew several men that would .take care of the bill, and 
 tlien I mentioned the chief's name, but I did it wilthtout his per- 
 mission, and the fact that he wtouid be in Albany, and also of 
 his having been an inspectioin officer iin the department it would 
 help us with the bill ; Clifford says, " I have got nothing to do 
 with that; " he says, " I will see about it; " that is all the con- 
 versartiom I had with him. 
 
 Q. Were you acquainted with' Leary? A. 'No, sir; I saw Nor- 
 ton abou;t twice; he was a friend of the chiefs.. 
 
 Q. MJcOabe wanted yoiu to have their serviceis secured for the 
 bill? A. I understood' it that way. 
 
 Q. That is what yoiu undertook to accomplish lor McCabe? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did McCabe explain to you the business of. Leary? A. He 
 did not. 
 
 • Q. Is he a man who lives at Albany amid works, to ' promiote 
 legisilation? A. No, sir; he sadld he would take care of it for us. 
 
 Q. Was there a sujggestion made by MoCabe that he would go 
 and see Clifford if Clifford wanted to see him? A. No, sdr. 
 
 Q. Did yoii suggest that to Clifford; that McCabe would ex- 
 plain and come and see him? A. No, sir; I merely said the 
 chief would be a good help to us, and I did that without per- 
 mission; I said the fact of his being am inspecting officer of tihe 
 department, and knowing the outfit we had to have, he could 
 help us. 
 
 Q. Did yoiu tell Clifford the icihief would secure Leary for him? 
 A. No, siri; I didn't mention names at all; I said I could get 
 several men. 
 
 F. 49 
 
386 
 
 Q. You mentionieid' thieir naimes? A. I did moit; I said I knew 
 of two men. 
 
 Q. YoTi referred to McC^be and Leary? A. I didn't mention 
 iHaeiv names; those are the ones I meant. 
 
 Q. This was in Noivember or December? A. I think in 
 Noveimber. 
 
 Q. After that time did you talk with McOaibe about this man 
 Leary? A. He never mentioned Ms nam.e foir a goiod while after 
 that nip to lately. 
 
 Q. How lately? A. The day he died. 
 
 Q. Tell us the comversation' you haid wilth him that morning? 
 A. He was eating when I wemt in; I hiaid about five minutesi to 
 spare; he told me to sit down, and when he got thirough eatihg 
 he got up and sat diown by the windlow; he said, "Ferg, I am 
 ruined ; " and I said, " That is too bad ; "• hie said, " I am going 
 on the witness stamd; " and he said, " Detn! Leary will go on the 
 witness stand and so will Oroker; " and' I isiat there for a while 
 in silence with him, and them had to gio. 
 
 Q. He was nervous? A. No, sir; he was annoyed. 
 
 Q. Did he tell how their going on the witness stand affected 
 him? A. No, sir; he did not 
 
 Q. Did he tell you how he was ruaiined? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was thene any peculiar look im hils face? A. No, sir; he 
 looked the same as hte often loioked to me, annoyed. 
 
 Q. That was rathetu ai sta.rtling comimunication to you, that he 
 was ruined and was going on the witness stand? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. You did not know all aboiut the matter? A. Only what I 
 read in the papers. 
 
 Q. You did not know what was meant by Leary and Oroker? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Dald you; ask McCabe? A No, sir; T saiw he was not in a 
 good humor and left him; I had to get back. 
 
 Q. You merely called fiocially? A. He always said, "Ferg, 
 drop aroundl whenever you have tikae." 
 
 Q. Was it an accidental call on yomr part? A. I was' doing as 
 he bid me. 
 
 Q. When had yoiu last seen him before this? A. Oni Tuesday 
 night; my day off. 
 
 Q. Did yotu have amy talk about Oroker and Leary? A. He 
 said he mSght be put on the witnesis stand, amd the oonversatio'n 
 drifted off then to his boy; hei gave me some tickets to go to an 
 entertainment that his boy was in. 
 
 Q. Didn't he tell yoiu) about Leary having said Bomiething thiat 
 included him? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. He gave you sort of ami eucplanatioin? 
 
387 
 
 Senator O'OootinoiP. — Does anybody know where Leary caJi be 
 got at so that he can be subpoenaed and brought before the 
 committee? 
 
 Colonel Howard. — We tried to subpoena him, but were un- 
 able to do sa 
 
 By Mr. Kaines: 
 
 Q. Have you stated all the oomversation yora had with McCabe 
 on Tuesday night? A. I can't recollect anything else he said 
 to me. 
 
 Q. Was MoOabie a* Albany somewhat thisi wilnter? A. Not 
 that I fenow of. 
 
 Q. Had he been in the habit of promotihg legislation at Al- 
 bany? A. JsTort to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you he was -to be at Albany this winter? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. And that he could be of use in eonnectioin with that bill on 
 that accorunt? A. He didn't tell me that; if I said that I said it 
 on my own respomsibility; he neyer told me that; he never said 
 such a thing. 
 
 Q. You' saM you never met Lealry? A. I never did; I would 
 not know him it I saw him, 
 
 Q. When McC^be was tallding with you about Leary did you 
 understtand he worked foin ai comj)ien,sation in such matters? A. 
 I did not know Mim at all. 
 
 Q. Did McOabe give you to undeTlstatnd he could be got in that 
 way? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Didn't you understand it? A. I did; yes. 
 
 By Mr. Rolot: 
 
 Q. Did McOabe say anything to you about Leary telling the 
 truth on the witness stand? A. T don't recollect that he did. 
 
 Q. ])id he siay anything about Croker telling the truth? A. 
 Yes; he did; he spoke about Chief Croker; he said Croker would 
 go on tlie witness stand and tell the truth; he also said to me 
 anybody that does no* tell the ti"'ithl when he goes on the stand 
 is foolish. I 
 
 Q. That was on that moiriiing? A. No, sir; I think on the 
 Tuesday night before. 
 
 Q. Was anything said on that subject on the morning when 
 you last saw hibi? A. No, sir; only what I just said, and T saw 
 he was annoyed; he said he hadn't been sleeping; said he didn't 
 sleep well, anid he stopped eating almoist as soon as I went in'; 
 then he got up and sat in a chair by the window, and then said 
 he was mined; I forget whether he said that before or after he 
 sat down: he said Trary was goihg on the stand. 
 
 Q. What day at the week was this? A. Thursday tmomiing. 
 
388 
 
 Q. Yom last had seen himi om tiie Tuesday before? A. Yes, sir; 
 on Ikiiesd'ay nigM; Tbursdayi moirniiig I saw Mm Hie last time; 
 lie died four h-onire iaiftlenward. 
 
 Q. On the Tuesiday before did he. talk about Oroker going on 
 the wiltnesis stand? A. Be said Onoker was goiing on ihe stand 
 and goimg to tell the truth; he says, "I think I will be put on 
 the stamd too;" he said also to me, "Ferg, be careful wJiat you 
 say; dbm't get mixed uip^ in this; thene: is going to be trouble;" 
 and I said, "I dbn't know anything about it; I can't get mixed 
 up in it." 
 
 Q. You thoraght tfliat was pretty good advice? A. I did; yes. 
 
 Q. Do you know whethler McCSabe saw Oroker between that 
 conTersaiion that yora hadi with him on Tuesday night and the 
 conversation yioiu had wiHih' Mm on Thtiirsday morning? A. I 
 do not. 
 
 Q. Did you knoiw whiat MoOaibe was talking about when on 
 Tuesday he told you Oroker wais going on, the stand? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How did yoiu knioiw? A. I surmised om aiccount of the 
 invesrtig'atiion. 
 
 Q- What had he said td yioiui aboiut thie invesitiigatiom? A. He 
 spoke to me about it before that, at the time it was printed in 
 The Press; he aisfced me if I had read it; waA I said, " Yes; " and 
 other times he spoke abouitit, about whait would be in the 
 papers; I don't recollect what he did say, b^ut he passed some 
 remarks about it that I oaln't call to miiid now. 
 
 Q. Recall whatever you cani of it amd let us have it? A. He 
 spoke aboiut a book and laughed oiver it; I can't exactly think 
 what he said; the conversatiioln drifted from one thing to an- 
 other, and we wooild be Interrupted in our conversation tiime and 
 again; I can't recollect it. 
 
 Q. YoM can't recWllect anything he said on the subgect? A. 
 No, sir; I can not. 
 
 By Mr. Kaiines: 
 
 Q. Just in what wayi did he say on Tuesday evening there was 
 gdinig tio be trouble about this? A. Prom the articles in the 
 paper. 
 
 Q. In thiat comniecti'on did he say Oroker was goiing on the 
 stand that night? A. I uniderstoiod tiilat night that Oroker was 
 going on the staMd the next day. , 
 
 Q. And tell the truth about it? A That is what he said. 
 
 Q. And that theire was going to be trouble? A. He says to 
 me, "There is going toi be trouble;" and if I knew anything 
 " don't talk; " and I told him them I did not know anything. 
 
 Q. He advisedl yora to tell whait yoiu knew? A. Keep still. 
 
389 
 
 Q. All you knew was lliait you liad been to Cliffoird and otliers 
 for McGabe; thaiti was all yoiu knew 'a,boiuFt it? A. I knew notMng 
 more about it only what I read in tbe newspapers. 
 
 Q. All you knew was tbe fact that you had been to Olifford? 
 A. That is not what he meamtl at all. 
 
 Q. He told you if you knew anything to keepi s.till? A. He 
 didn't meani Cliifford; what he meant was what was being pub- 
 lished at that time in the papers. 
 
 Q. That is what he wanted you to keep still albout? A. About 
 the offlicers' amiendmient; I told hato I kpaew njotihiing at alJ 
 about it. 
 
 Q. So yoiu would not be called to the witness stand? A 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. On Wednesday moipning he told' you Croker was to be 
 called? A. Thursday moiming. 
 
 Q. He tiold you Croker would be called and you milght be 
 called? A. He told me that on Tuesday night, that Oroker was 
 going to tell the truth and on ThtuTiSidaiy morning he said he was 
 going on, the stand. 
 
 Q. Didn't he say then he was going to tell the truth? A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. He said, " Croker is going io|n the stamJd, and I am ruined? " 
 A. He said Croker and Den Leary were to, and he said he was 
 ruined. 
 
 Q. He didn^t explain iEs Qiimg any further? A. That is all 
 he said. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you anythamg Leary was going to tell on the 
 witness stand? A. ISToi, sir. 
 
 Q. Or that Croken was goiing to tell? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you in either of these conversation that he liad 
 talked with Leary about the salary matter? A. No, sir; he 
 did not. 
 
 Q. Or that he had talked waitih Oroker about getting Leary 
 into thte scheme? A. No, siir. 
 
 Q. Or labout |10,000 being guaranteed to Leary? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you that he had a talk with La Orange up to 
 this time? A. He told me he used to go and see La Grange 
 two or three times a week, but he didn't tell me what the con- 
 versatiotn was. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you, that he had. talked with La- Orange about 
 this salary matter? A. No, sir; I didn't know he talked; with 
 him about it. 
 
 Q. Did you goi to anybody besides Clifford in connection with 
 this matter? A. Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. Diild McCabe suggest anyboidy else he wished you toi see? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
, S90 
 
 Q. That talfc about going to aee Clifford, was tliat in your 
 engine-hloiuse, the talk between jmi and McOabe? A. Noj I 
 forget whether in the cluibmoioimi or wihere it wais. 
 
 Q. Youi are a memiber of the Milholland Cluibl, tihie same as 
 MoCabe? A. Yes^ sir; I guess I hjave the disttnotLon of being tihe 
 only one ia the department wiio is a meimiber. 
 
 Lemuel E. Quigg, being (recalled and further esamimed by Mr. 
 EainieS) tesitifled as follows: 
 
 Q. Who first told j<m of the transaction betweent Leary, amd 
 Oroker and Shaw? A. Leary first told me. 
 
 Q. When was that? A I think it was — I can place it by the 
 date of the inrestigation — it was oui the Monday succeeding tlie 
 first da^ys of the investigatik)n. 
 
 Q. Succeeding the first Friday and Saturday that testimony 
 was taken? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did you have the interview? A At The Press office. 
 
 Q. How did he conie there? A. I don't know:; he Tolunteered 
 as far as I know. 
 
 Q. And, subsequently, did you meet him at Mr. Boiot's ofQce? 
 A. I think not. 
 
 Q. Did you bring him and Mr. Root together? A I think 
 not. 
 
 Q. Do yoiu know of their being together? A. I do not 
 
 Q. Or Mr. Howard? A Yes; Oolomel Howard was in my office 
 at the time Leary came in. 
 
 Q. By appointaient with Leaay? A. No; I knoiw not; I had 
 never seen Leary befona 
 
 Q. That was the first tntkniation you had of the Leary-Croker- 
 Shaw transaction? A. Yes; that was the first intimatian I Ihad 
 of it, so far as I knew of any individuals. 
 
 Q. So far as you had' heard of either of these three persons 
 mentioned at that time in connection! with ^he transactioni? 
 A. Yes; I had heard this previously; I forget from, whom, that 
 there had been at sonnie stage of the negotiatiionis the interven- 
 tion of another lobbyist than Payn ; who it was I do not know ; 
 I had no particulars^. 
 
 Q. When was that suggesdoni miade to you, that there was 
 some other lobbyist in the matter? A. That was made early, at 
 about the first itimie I had had an intim^itiom of negotiations of 
 any kind. 1 
 
 Q. None of these three persons names were mientioned nor 
 McOabe's? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And none of that informati'on was In your possessiion at the 
 time of the publication of this article on the 18th of April? A 
 
391 
 
 Q. YoTi heard auoiiihier lobbyisfi intervened, but none of these 
 names were given yotu? A. That is quite rigM. 
 
 Q. Any details of aniy such interviiew as wasi narrated by 
 Oroker upon the witnesis stand and Shaw? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Who is president of your aiSisoiciaition, that publishes. The 
 Press? A. Henry L. Einstein. 
 
 Q. In whose hands did you first siee this letter written by Shiajw 
 to Leary? A. In Leary's, at my oflioe the day he oame there; at 
 the time I have spofeem of. 
 
 Q. Have you named all the persoms thiere present? A. Yes. 
 
 •Q. Was McCabe there at that time? A. He was not 
 
 Q. Was he at your office aft'erwardisl? A. I never saw him. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether he was at your offlae? A. I do not 
 think so; I never heard of it 
 
 Q. Did you see MoOaibe afterwards at the offtoe of your 
 counsel? A. N"©; I never saw MoOabe. 
 
 Q. Did you turn this letter over to. your counael, after this 
 interview? A. I did. 
 
 Q- They had it in thieilr possesBibmJ from tihjat timje until pro- 
 duced at the hearing? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you subsequently hiave it? A. I did. , 
 
 Q. I hold in my handl a statement purporting to iha,ve been 
 made by Leary, in which Leary is represented as saying — I read 
 from the New York' Despatch of May 5, 1895, an interview with 
 Leary — in speaking of iihis interview Leary is represented as 
 sajang, "When I received the letter I simply, seut it to' MeC&,be 
 to show him that I had tri'ed to help in the matter, and what the 
 result had been. As to how McCJabe^s personal papers came 
 into poissessiton of others I have nothing to say;" does that, in 
 any way, change or refresh your recollection as toi whether 
 McCaibe turned this letter over to Leary? A. I have not said 
 that MoOabe turned that letter over, or that Leary did, 
 
 Q. You saw it in Leary's hand first? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q., I understood you stated Leary left it and you placed it in 
 the hands of your counsel? A. I didn't intend to. say that; 
 what I said was, " I had possession of it for a time, and showed it 
 to my counsel." 
 
 Q. Leary left it with you? A. He did not 
 
 Q. With whomJ did he leave it? A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Only three of you there? A. That is all. 
 
 Q. Was that letter there? A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. When was it in possession of yourself or counsel? A. The 
 letter was returned by me to Leary. 
 
 Q. On this occasion of that ilnterviiew? A Yes, sir; it was 
 returned then ; I never saw the letter until subsequently to that 
 until the night before it was prodnced aln evidenoe; when one 
 
392 
 
 Norton, wh/ose name wias mieai'tiibiieSi just now by youir witness, 
 Fergus, brought tke letfier to my office and banded it to me; how 
 Norton got in posisiession ol' it I do not kmiow. 
 
 Q. That was tbe day before it was produeeid in evidieince? A. 
 I think the night before it was pnoduced in evidience. 
 
 Q. Ainid that, with referenae to John MoCabe's death, was 
 when? A. McCabe had been deafd, I thHlnik, over, a week; McOabe 
 didn't have possession of the letter, so far asi I know, at any 
 time. 
 
 Q. And Norton didn't inform you froim whose hands he received 
 it? A. No, sir; Leatry told me there were five letters. 
 
 Q. This letter, is the one we wiant? A. I think you would like 
 to have all the infonmartioin you can get 
 
 Q. This letter then you oan mot say was in McOabe^s possession 
 at any time? A. I do not iMmk it was. 
 
 By Senator O'Ooninior: 
 
 Q. Do you know Leary's address? A. I do not; the man was 
 very skittish; I think I ought to tell you all he said to me at 
 that time; I do not know hiia address, further thani that he told 
 me da ojne occasion that he cioiuld be reached at lihe Morton 
 House, aind cm' a subsequent occasion, that he could be reached 
 at Hollamders', which is, I think, in Fourteenth street, in the 
 neighborhood of Irving place; I did not have occasion to reach 
 him and never iinvesitilgated the addresses. 
 
 By Mr. Bannes: 
 
 Q. Having received from him, on the Monday spoken of, after 
 the first two day's session, this Oroker-Shaw transaction and the 
 letter, and having seen the letter, amdJ being naturally desirous 
 of this matter beilng probed to the bottom., why didn't you sub- 
 poena that man to come blefoire the Senate committee to tell 
 what he knew? A. Well, that is a question I think should be 
 addressed to my counsel, if yotu wish to know. 
 
 Q. Youi choose your own woirds and nobody can put anything 
 in your mouth e:»cept Mr. Quigg? A. Precisely. 
 
 Q. Yoiui disclaim the pdlvilege you now have of making a more 
 definite and saitisfactoiry answer?' A. I think tha* is saidisf actory ; 
 I thought so fair as I was concerned the best way to get at the 
 truth in view ofl the appa.rent skittishness of Leary, and the fact 
 I could not divine wha;t he was after, to gm^e himi into the hands 
 of my counsel. 
 
 Q. Which you did? A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. The fact be is mot here aa the witness stand toi detail the 
 
393 
 
 transaxrtion; he liiad witih' McOalble, Oiokerl and SUaw is itihe Tiesailt 
 of tbe cogitations of jww oounsiel? A, On tlie contrary, as inaaiy 
 as three efforts to smbpoienai Mr. Leary have been' miade by my 
 ooiinsel, and penhaps the fact that we were denied subpoenas, that 
 we might use at will had something to do with the fact that he 
 is not here. 
 
 , Q. At what tikne were yoni denied subpoenas? A. We were 
 denied subpoenas that could be used at will. 
 
 Q. Were you not told that subpoenas would be furnished for 
 auy witnesses whooni you. gave the names of? A. You said to 
 me a moment ago why didn/t you subpoena hilmi then; I hald' no 
 doubt if we had had subpoenas^ that we might have used at 
 our optioM, that man would have been on the witness stand. 
 
 Q. How do you aodouut for the fact that so truje an investigator 
 as Mr. Quigg, backed up by so able ciounsel as Colonel Howard, 
 having a man in your presence giving you there documentary 
 evidence, htow do you aceotumt foE the fact that you were unable 
 to so fan prevail upon him as to permit himself to get under a 
 subpoena? A. I don't nieedl toi account. 
 
 Q. Did Leary say that he didn't wish to appear? A. Many 
 tiimes. 
 
 Q. And yet, during thife investiga,tion, he put himself in the 
 oiflee of the prosecutoir and in the presence of his counsel? A. 
 He dijd on one occasion. 
 
 Q. On this occasion? A. Yes, sdlr. 
 
 Q. Do you know that he has been at Mr. Root's office? A. I 
 have been so infoirmed. 
 
 Q. Give us something th^ we would think more frank in the 
 way of explanation, why liiis man so full of information, and so 
 valuable a mine of dnformatilon to you, hais niolt been isubpoienaed? 
 
 Mr. Roiot. — 1 object to the question as an imputation upon 
 the witnesis. > , I 
 
 By Mr. Eiaitaes: 
 
 Q. I will withdraw the word, " frank." A. Then I shall object 
 -to the question on the ground that I can^ not specify your miental 
 prooesses. 
 
 Q. Having printed in a New York journal of wide circulaition 
 matters of grave imlpoirtance about the character of individuals 
 and of a department contailninig upwards of a thousand mien ; how 
 do you jusiify omitting to place within reach of thisi investigating 
 committee the inf Oirmation iln poBsessiom of this man when he was 
 in your office and in the office' of your counsel during the inves,ti- 
 F. 50 
 
394 
 
 galioo, or after two days' of itts sesmons liaid passed m coiiYerBa- 
 tiom.with. you? 
 Mr. Eooit objectted to tlhye quesitiioaa. Obfjeotioini suisitaiued. 
 
 By Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. How long after the inteimew betwieen you, Leaiy and 
 Colonel Howard ia your office waisi it, thaiti Joto MoCatoe cioon- 
 mitted suicide? A. Tlhlat is a matter of recollection; I do not 
 nemjemlber. * 
 
 Q. Was it tihie same week, on Wednesday or Thursday that 
 MoGabe committed suicide after your conversation on Monday? 
 A. My impression is that iti was the next week. 
 
 Q. It was alter? A. Yes', sir. 
 
 Q. And yet having had from Leary tSii's letter and a statemient 
 of Shaw and Croker to the effect that there had been negotiations 
 between Leary, McOabe, Sihaw and Oroker in which Shaiw and 
 Groker were solicited iai employ them, youi willfully print in 
 your newspaper, and scatter broadcasit, a statement that John 
 McCabe had committed suicide to avoid being a witness upon 
 tliis hearing? A. I have no doubt on earth of its truth; none 
 whatever. 
 
 Q. At the time you printed it and in^ the sarnie article you repre- 
 sented to the world, so far as your columns readhed that that 
 suicide was prompted by the fact that he had knowledge that 
 LQculpated others, but not MoCJabe? A- Yes, sir; and I believed 
 that 
 
 Q. Yet you hiad the statement of Leary that he had, a notori;ous 
 lobbyist, had soug!ht McCabe to be employed by Croker and Shaw 
 ' in the passage of titie bill? A. 'No, sir; I had not 
 
 Q. Didn't Leary tell you that he had sought a guarantee of 
 .?10,000 and demanded that in consideration of his serviicesi? A. 
 Yes, sir; why don't you ask me wihat Leary told me? 
 
 Q. Having been told by Leary that he had approaclhed these 
 men for guarantee of |10,000 for getting this bill through, and 
 that MoOabe had baxjuglit about an interview? A. I was told ihe 
 brought about an interview. 
 
 Q, Upon what fact or theory can you justify the publication 
 t1hat MoCabe having been in ain illegitimate field in tlie interests 
 of Leary, that McOalbe Ihad! commiitted suicide because he was 
 intrusted with the secrets of others and memibers and officers of 
 the fire department. 
 
 Mr. Boot objected. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — This publication appeared on Tuesday 
 morning, the 16th of April? 
 
 Mr. Boot. — The 18th of Apiril, the first publication. 
 
395 
 
 Senator O'Coonor. — I wish, to speak about tlie smlypoieiias. We 
 h,a,d subpoienas and seat down by the sergeamt-atarais and lie 
 telephoned back that Mr. Eoot would not gli^ tihje names of tllie 
 wltlnesses that wanted the snbpoeaaR I went down the niext 
 morning and the oomimltte© deputized a gentleman namied by Mr. 
 Root to serve the snibpoienas and we furnished him with sub- 
 poienas. The following wieek I sent Mr. Root a dozen subpoenas 
 and he subpoenaed wiitnesBies as he saw fit with the authority 
 of the oommittiee. 
 
 Mir. Root — And I gave you the name of Dennis Leary. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — ■ The members of the committee think that 
 the last question calls for an opiniom rather than a fact. 
 
 By Mr. Raines: 
 
 Q. You did give in The Press and in a Press editorial your 
 theory that McCabe committed suicilde because he was intrusted 
 by his associates with secrets that inculpated him? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And thosei you designated as members of the fire depart- 
 ment? A. I don't remember what I said precisely, but you have 
 the right tiheory. 
 
 By Senator O'Oonnoir: 
 
 Q. Upon what fact did you base the charge that MciOabe 
 coimmitted suicide because of hia fear of an exposure of fact? A. 
 I have been waiting foir that; I based it upon the statement to me 
 of Leary, and also of La G-range as to what MoCabe, so far, as 
 Leary said, knew, and so far as what McCabe had told La G-ramge. 
 
 Q. La Crange didn't tell you that McCabe said that he had 
 been intrusted with secrets? A. He did. 
 
 Q. Did he give you transactions? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. That had beeni iintrusted to McCabe by associates that 
 would inculpate the assoiciates? A. Ceneral La Grange told mie 
 tliat McCabe told himi thajt officers of the fire department had 
 raised $6,000 for the purpose of passing this ameindment, and 
 that the money had been placed ini a bank and that he and 
 MoCabe knew where it was. 
 
 Q. Right ta that connection, you heard La Grange testify? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he tell yora that McCabe had testifled to that as a. fact 
 within his knowledge or from what he had heard; my recol- 
 lection is La Grange testifled that McCabe said that officers had 
 told him; I want to know whether La Grange told you that 
 McCabe could testify to It as a fact within his own knowledge, 
 or as '1'" convers' i'. as and admissions of officerls in the depart- 
 ment? A. The latter is. any impression, that it was told him 
 by the officers. , 
 
396 
 
 Bj Mr. Eaimes: 
 
 Q. At the time you exploited hils suicide, las committed fan the 
 protection of hols fellow officers, at tliat time yotu' hiad been, dis- 
 tiuctly infiormfi'd of a corrupt propoisitioii made by Leajry, witli 
 the assent of McCaibe to the officers of the fire department? A. 
 No; it had not been reported to me; Leary's stiatement toi mie 
 didn't itoiculpate MdOabe at all; on the icontirary, the story told 
 on the witness stand oj Qroker and Shaw differs very materially 
 from the story told me by Leary, and especially wilth reference 
 to McOabe's connection with it. 
 
 Q. You have stated to me that Leary told you he asked |10,000 ? 
 • A. I hare. 
 
 Q. You didtQ't think fon an instant that a malm whoi asikiedl ftw 
 $10,000 of Leary's occupation wanted it for an honest purpose? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Lea^ry havitog told you o£ Waiving made suichi a corrupt ppopo- 
 sition, and McOatoe having brioaight aboiu;t the interview, why did 
 you not, in the editorial explaining the death at Mr. McCabe 
 take thie facts that were stated toi you) by persons who knew 
 them, and say he died becatusie he had been engaged in what 
 skirted a felony very closely, and because of his pairticipation in 
 the tnajn'saction, rather than the other theory, which yoai say is 
 based on hearsay? A Your question can not be answered. 
 
 Q. You have stated that Leary told you he had denaianded 
 $10,000 a:s a guarantee? 
 
 (Question waived'.) 
 
 Q. Tell what he said? A. Leary came in and told me that he 
 could throw some light on' this transaiction, concerjiing which 
 there had been publitoationjs in The Press; I asked bimi who he 
 was. and he explained that he wast ai lobbyist; I asked him what 
 inf orraiation lie had and he' handed me the letter that has been 
 produced in evidence; I read the letter and inquired who Shaw 
 was, and he told me that he was a chief of the fire department ; 
 in answer to further questions he said tliat he had sought the 
 acquaintance of the chief of the fire department through McOabe; 
 I asked how h'e eanie to know ^VfcCabe and he said through a 
 man of the name of Norton; T asked him what acquaintance he 
 had with McCabe, and he said very little; I aisked when McCabe 
 introduced him to Shaw, and he said that he introduced' him 
 upon the corner of Thirteenth street on the 2d day of March; he 
 said that he had found here that Paiyn had lalgreed to put this 
 amendment on the salary bill for $16,000 — $8,000 to be paid in 
 cash and $8,000 when tie am:endment had been put upon the 
 bill, when the bill had .passied; he said that he then obtained the 
 acquaintajnce of Shaw and Croker thnoiush McOabe; McOabe not 
 
397 
 
 being present at their inteicTiew, and not havilng been previously 
 ini'ormed of what he intended! to propose; he had oflfered to do 
 the work for |10,000, the |10,000 toi be paid when the work was 
 done, which he commended as an honester transaction than that 
 of Pa.Tn; he said that there -was a meeting of the officers on 
 Monday uight somewhere In Fourth street, and that Shaw and 
 Croker guai-anteed to bring thr- oflicers around to his views; he 
 said that the meeting in Fourth street was held, but that Shaw 
 and Crolcer reported to him that the officers, in d'eference to the 
 views of Mr. Burns, thought it would be best to keep Payn in 
 the job, because he was more skillful under all circumstances of 
 the case; I asked him to see Shaw and Croker and find out 
 whether they would tell these facts, and also to see McCabe; 
 that was abo'uit the sense of the first interview that I had with 
 the man Leary. 
 
 Q. Go on and giVie tltue next? A. At the next interview he 
 said — 
 
 Q. When was it? A. It was a day or two subsequently. 
 
 Q. At your office? A. I think so; yes; he said he had: seen 
 MciCabe and that MoCaibe worald tell the truth about it, and that 
 McCabe siaid that Croker would, unless he was pulled off by 
 Shaw; that is practiteally all he said to mie. 
 
 Q. You mtist have said something to Leary on the subject of 
 his being a witness? A. I have not. 
 
 Q. If there was anything else in these conversations state it? 
 A. Not in relation to^ this transiaction. 
 
 Q. Did you in your publication with regard to the suicide of 
 John MoOabe publish oir allude to these facts stated to you by 
 Leary, or to the facts stated toi you by Leairy afoouit the transac- 
 tions btetrween Croker, Shaw and MoOabe? A. I was very careful 
 not toi; my motive in omittiing to startle those facts was because I 
 wamted and hoped to obltain through Shaw and Crokier or some- 
 body else a complete and full account of this whole business, and 
 did not think suitable to mientite niamesi 
 
 Q. Didn't it occur to you, in your editorial, that the transac- 
 tions of these mien threw any light whatever beioaiuse of the 
 suicide of MoOabe? A. You forget my infoirmation didn't m'aike 
 McCabe a party to the Qrokeir-Shaw-Leary transaicition at all, 
 further than that MfeCabe had presented Leary toi Shaw and 
 Croker but was not present at their conversation]; that was the 
 extent to which McCabe was represeaated to me to have had part. 
 
 Q. Is it your theory that a man who goes about introduoing a 
 lobbyist to committees of firemen has no part in the transaction, 
 and is not smirched biy afuything in the transactiWi ? A. No; that 
 is not my theoiry. 
 
398 
 
 Q. You don't meani to sajy that Joluni McCJalbe hadn't been in 
 that transaction and was a party with, Leary in that tnamsaetiom,? 
 A. I have answered that question many times; my answer is, that 
 the informiatiom tituat I had at that time was that MciOabe was a 
 party to the transaction, no further than tlhat without informa- 
 tion of what it was that Leary intended toi propose he presented 
 Leary to Shaw and Oroker; Leary's conversation with me did 
 not implicate McOatoe further than thait. 
 
 Q. The fact that he brought this mam to him; whoi demanded 
 $10,000, did not imipli'oate MciOabe? A. That is a matter of 
 opinion. 
 
 Q. What is yours? A. I think it did. 
 
 Q. It would be an eiasy mattter for a niewspiapier writer to jump 
 to the conclusion that he was a parfy with Leary and meant to 
 benefit from it; Leary being a notorious lobbyisitl? A. So far 
 as the benefit is concerned, Leary denied that. 
 
 Q. Did he say that MdOabe was not to benefit by it? A. He 
 did ; he said that McCiabe had noi part in it. 
 
 Q. Did you accept that as true? A. Not iln my mind, at that 
 time; I did afterwards. 
 
 Q. How soon? A. Wheni I talked with others about the kinid of 
 a man' McCabe was. 
 
 Q. Did you oome to the conclusion that MoOabe was a man, niot 
 to be accused of ptutting up a deal betweieni a loibbyist and a com- 
 mittee? A. No; I did mot; I got the opinion that McOabe woiuld 
 not care to associate with! the transaction. 
 
 Q. And th!art infoirmation youi dervied fromi your lOounael? A. 
 Not entirely; from Grenerail La Granige and from Mr. Percy. 
 
 Q. Under these suspicious conditions you acquitted McCabe 
 of being in' a corrupt transaction with Leary? A. I did' not say 
 I acquitted him of anything but the purpose of shiairing prooeeds; 
 I have no doubt he was doing whait he did for what he thouight 
 to be the interests of thie fire department; I have no doubt what- 
 ever he did all he did from' what he thought to be for the best 
 interests of the members of the fire departmient. 
 
 Q. Knowing by statetaients to you of persons present, and 
 actual transactions you preferred ini aiccountang for the suicide of 
 this m!an to base your theory upon) the hearsay contained in 
 La Grange's statements iB youi? A. Not entirely. 
 
 . Q. Have you any other reason to give for leaving, thIe Leairy 
 tranisaction out in attemptinig to account for th'e suicide of 
 McCabb? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. To whom did you give the two checks that you spoke of in 
 youT formier examination, in' the fall of 1^93? A. T gave all 
 checks that I received to Mr. Einstein. 
 
399 
 
 Q. Was thiere oitiiier disbursementsi in ycrar campaign? A. Yes, 
 sip. 
 
 Q. Have yoiu tbotagOit of any more? A. I don't remiember; I 
 have no doaibt tliere were ortieirs'; no douM there were several. 
 
 Q. Those received last fall? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I show you certified copy of yonr affidavit filed last fall 
 with regard to electipni disbursements lq which yoiu stated yon 
 spent nothing directly or indirectly for oampaign purposes? A. 
 That is quite true. 
 
 (lifr. Eaines offered in evidence the affidavit of Mr. Quigg, sworn 
 to the 7th of February, 1891, and filed in the clerk's office of the 
 city of New York, in reference to his candidacy for Congress at 
 the special election' held on the .30th' of January, 1894, in which 
 Mr. Quigg swearis he did not spend directly or indirectly any 
 money to aid in his election^ Eecieivedl and marked "Exhibit 1 
 of May 7th, 1894, L. A. W. SI") 
 
 (Mr. Raines also offered in evidence the affidavit lof Mr. Quigg 
 in reference to his election' expenses at the general election in 
 1894 when Mr. Quigg was a candidate foiP Congress.) 
 
 George W. E)obertson, being dnly sworn as a witness and 
 examined by Mr. Root, testified as follows: 
 
 Q. Did yoiu introduce in the Senate bill No. 242, introductory 
 232, entitled "An act to amend chapter two htmdred and thirty- 
 four of the laws of eighteen hundred and eighty-four, entitled 
 An lact to regulate the grade and to fix the pay or compensation 
 of uniformed members of the fire department who are firemen 
 in all cities of this State, having according to the last census a 
 populationi exceeding eight hundred thousand?'" A. I remem- 
 ber the bill as being* Senate bill No'. 242, that is thie bill. 
 
 Q. By whosf! request did you introduce that? A. I think it 
 was handed to me — om the request of Mr. Sheffield. 
 
 Q. The bill wiais referred to the committee on cities, according 
 to the record here? A. It was. 
 
 Q. That is in accordance with yoiur recollection? A. I so 
 understand. 
 
 Q. You are a member of that ciommittee? A. I ann. 
 
 Q. What was dbne .with it in the Senate committee? A 
 Eventually it was amended: in the Senate committee. 
 
 Q. By adding a provision increasing the salaries of officers of 
 the fire department? A. I don't remtember that it increased 
 the pay of the officeris of the fire department, but it provided for 
 a mamdatory clause miaking provision for an aict that had been 
 passed, as I understood it, sotme two years before, in'creasing 
 their pay, which was then peilmissive. 
 
400 
 
 Q. Is not this ball, as it was reported Ipoim the citiesi coimnittee 
 to tlie Senate as No. 647, geneml order 161? A: Yes; this is the 
 bill after amendment. 
 
 By Senator O'Connor: ' 
 
 Q. I understood you to say that under a prior law the author- 
 ities were aiuthorized to raise the salaries up to a certain flgture? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. But up to the time of the introduction of this bill they 
 hadn't been raSised? A. I so understand it. 
 
 Q. Youir amendment compelled them; to pay the figure fixed 
 by the previous act? A. Yes, sir; making provision for the 
 firemen — -the rank and' file — and the amendment making pro- 
 vision that the officers' salairy provided for two years before be 
 made mandatory. 
 
 By Mir. Root: ; " j 
 
 Q. These words seem to have been introdnced in bill 242 so as 
 to appear in its amended form: " Section 1. On and aiflter the 
 first day of January, eighteen hundred and ninetly-six, the salary 
 of the chief of the fire department m cities having aecoi'ding to 
 laist census a populaition exceeding one million five hundred thou- 
 sand, shall be six thousand dollars. The salairy of the two 
 deputy chiefs shall be for each forty-five hundred dollars. The 
 salaries of the chiefs of baittalion shall be for each three thou- 
 saiud five hundted dollars; the salaries of the captains or fore- 
 men ol the department shall be for. each twenty-five hundred 
 dollars, and the salaries of the lasisistant captains or assistant 
 foremen shall be for each two thousand dollars;." That is the 
 form of the amendment, was it not? A. That is the printed bill. 
 
 Q. The bill was also changed so as to be instead of an amend- 
 ment to the consolidation act an independent aiot? A. That is 
 the bill. 
 
 Q. Who dreiw the amendment? A. I do not knioiw. 
 
 Q. Who mioved the amendment to the cities conimitteo? A. 
 I did. 
 
 Q. From whom did you get the amendment that you moved? 
 A. 1 thinlt it was handed to me; I won't be positive— I am under 
 the impression it wasi handed to me; a party of gentlisoen were 
 together — I think it was handed to me personally by Mr. Payn. 
 
 Q. Louis P. Payn? A.^ Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When did the meeting of the committee occur at which 
 you moved this amendment? A. I won't be positive as to the 
 date; I think in the neighborhlopd of April 25th, or the 26th or 
 the 27th- 
 
S 401 
 
 Q. Februairy 26 th, I thiaik it appeama am the record? A. What- 
 ever the date, it is on record. 
 
 Q. It appears the inerting was the 26th of February, and that 
 the bill was reported next day? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long before this meeting of the cities committee did 
 I'ayn hand you that amendment? A. I think perhaps it may 
 have been a week; I won't be poisitive. 
 
 Q. Was it as much as that? A. I don't think it was more 
 Ihan that; I won't be positive; that is about as near as J can 
 get; it may have been a week; I won't be poisiitive as to the time; 
 I do not thinlc it was more than a week. 
 
 Q. A'onr best recollection is Ihat it was a week? A. Yes, sir; 
 not more. 
 
 Q. Where Avas he when he handed you the aimendment? A. I 
 think right here in the Senate chamber. 
 
 Q. In the chamber? A. In tihe Senate chamber here. 
 
 Q. You say several gentlemen were present; who else besides 
 Payn wais present? A. I don't remember; I think, however, 
 Seiiator Raines was present, near by. 
 
 Q. Taking part in the conversation? A. I think it was a 
 general conversation. 
 
 Q. Between Sepator Raines, Payn and yourself? A. There 
 may have been one or two otliers; I don't remember anybody else.. 
 
 Q. Between Raines, Payn and yourself and one or two others? 
 A. That is my impression; I can't recollect the names of any 
 others. 
 
 Q. Do you remembei' whether or not they were Senators? A. 
 I think they were. 
 
 Q. You can't recollect? A. No, sif. 
 
 Q. On the floor of. the Senate? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was the Senate in session? A. It was not. 
 
 Q. Was the pape'r \\'hich Payn handed yon simply an amend- 
 ment to be attached to the then existing bill, or was it a re- 
 drafted bill? A. If my memory serves me it was a typewritten 
 amendment; that is my impression; that it was a typewritten 
 amendment. 
 
 Q. To be inserted in the existing bill? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Tell me, if you can remember, how this bill then got 
 changed from a bill to amend the Consolidation Act, as it was 
 in the original form, as No. 242, to an independent act, not refer- 
 ring to the Consolidation Act as it was in reported form 647? 
 A. I can not; I do not recall it. 
 
 Q. How did the title of the bill get changed? A. I have no 
 knowledge of it at all. 
 
 r. 51 ' 
 
402 I 
 
 Q. Was the tMe dhanged in the typewritten paper which 
 Payn liianded you? A. It mayliave beeta; I won't be positive 
 abont that 
 
 Q. So fair as yon kmow, were any changes made in the bill 
 fronn its 'oilgimal form No. 242, to its amendted fonn as 647, ex- 
 cept the changes whidh' were contained in the typewritten paper 
 handed you by Paj^? A. That is alL 
 
 Q. T\1ien yon moTed to amend the bill in committee, you 
 moved, I suppose, to amend it to conform to this typewritten 
 papen wHcli yon produced? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yon know that Mr. Sheffield, who had intrusted you 
 with this orSgLnial bill, was in the city ol Albany and in the 
 Capitol building at the time you moved this iunemdment in the 
 committee? A. I did not 
 
 Q. You saw him: later? A. Subsequent to the meeting. 
 
 Q. Mr. Sheffield has testified that you had promised him a 
 hearing before this comlmittee? A. T do not think Mr. Sheffield 
 testified that. 
 
 Q. Mr. Shieffield testified he had been promised a hearing by 
 the cities committee; you had no part in that promise? A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see Sheffield the same day of that committee meet- 
 ing? A. Yes, sir; subsequent to it; after the meeting had 
 adjourned. 
 
 Q. And had a conversation with him on the subject of the bill? 
 A. He apppoaiched thfe subject; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Prior to Mr. Payn's handinj;' yom this typewritten paper 
 containiiiig changes in this bill, on the occasion to which you 
 have testified, had you had any conversation with Payn regard- 
 ing the bill? A. None whiatever. 
 
 Q. That was the first interview you had with him? A. Yes, 
 sir; and the only one. 
 
 Q. You had had conversations with Payn during the session 
 upon other subjects? A. I don't recall having had. 
 
 Q. You remember that Sheffield was very much opposed to this 
 amendment to the bill? A. He seemed somewhat disappointed. 
 Q. Somewhat excited, was he not? A. Perhaps he may have 
 been, but not particularly so. 
 
 Q. He told you, didn't he, that he was diissalisfled with iihe 
 result; he told you he regarded it as an unfriendly act? A. He 
 may have done so; he wasn't satistfled. 
 
 Q. Do yon remember that Mr. Findley, the attorney of the fire 
 department, was before the committee on that, day? A. Yesi, 
 sir. ' 
 
 Q. And he opposed some provisions of the bill? A. Yes, sir; 
 
403 
 
 Q. He declined: to express an opdiiion on that because he hadn't 
 been instmoted by the coimntesion:ers? A. I don't kinow Ms 
 object. 
 
 Q. DM any other person than Payn aski yom to put this amend- 
 ment on the bill ? A. ISTot oniginally. 
 
 Q. Did any othein person than Payne ask yoTi before the meet- 
 ing of the committee, and if so, whom? A. I had conferences 
 and talks with a numiber in regard to it. 
 
 Q. In regard to what? A. The amendment. 
 
 Q. Before the meeting of the committee? A. Ye®, sir. 
 
 Q. With whom? A. I don't know the names; I think, perhaps 
 I talked with Senator Aheam in regard toi it; I think I did; I 
 am quite positive I did. 
 
 Q. Thisi, before or after Payn had handed you the amendment? 
 A'. Subsequent ta the amendment having been handed to me by 
 Payn. 
 
 Q. Did you talk with any one else? A. I think I consulted 
 with a nuniber of senatorps; I think I talked with Senator Raines; 
 I do not recall any others; there may have been others. 
 
 Q. Did you talk with anybody outside the senate on the sub- 
 ject of this amendment, prior to your moving it in committee? A. 
 Only in the committee room. 
 
 Q. In the meeting of the committee? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. With whom^ did you talk on that occasion? A. A general 
 conversation took place on the hearing in regard to the bill; 
 Mr. Findley was there and spoke with reference to isom:e pro- 
 visions ; Mr. Pavey appeared in reference to his bill, and we had 
 a general conversation on the subject. 
 
 Q. Mr. Pavey had introiduoed a similar bill in the Assembly? 
 A. So I understood. 
 
 Q. What position did Pavey take? A. He didn't like to have 
 the bill amended; he seemed to think it was not judicious. 
 
 Q. Wont you refresh your memory, and see if it is not a fact as 
 Findley testified to, that when asked before the committee, what 
 he thought of the amendment he declined to express an opinion? 
 A. He told us that he knew of no opposition, but that he was 
 not instructed to speak with reference to it. 
 
 Q. He had never heard of the amendment before that moment? 
 A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. Mr. Pavey's opposition to the amendment was at the meet- 
 ing of the oommiittee, I understand? A. He spoke in favor of his 
 own bill more particularly, and also in opposition to the amend- 
 ment making provision for the odBftcers' salaries. 
 
 Q. And Sheffield's opposition to it was immediately after the 
 meeting? A. Subsequent to the meeting. 
 
404 
 
 Q. And before the bill had been reported? A. Yes; it was 
 reported the next day. 
 
 Q. Did any other perison tOian Loiiis F. Payn ask you to have 
 that bill amended up to the time when it was amended? A. I 
 think Senator Kaines, in our conversations together, expressed a 
 wish, and there may have been others, but I don't recollect who 
 they were; it presented itself favorably to my mind. 
 
 Q. You can't recall any one besides Payn and liainesi? A. I 
 do not; no, sir. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — How soon after this bill had been reported 
 by the committee, was it recommitted to the committee? A. I 
 think it was either the same day it was reported, or the next day ; 
 I am under that impression. 
 
 Q. On whose motion was it recommitted? .V. I do not Impw. 
 
 Q. Don't you remember Senator Mullin speaking to you about it, 
 and you, at his request, moving to recommit it? A. I remember 
 his speaking to me about it, and I don't know but that he made 
 the motion. 
 
 Senator Mnllin. — My recollection is that I spoke to Senator 
 Robertson about it, and he agreed tot it; I think he made the 
 motion, either he did oir I did. 
 
 The Witness. — Senator Mullin did, or I did, ' I think the 
 same day. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Was it reported back witli the amend- 
 ment stiicken out? A. No; it is on the calendar yet. 
 
 Q. Never reported back from the committee? A. No', sir; re- 
 jiorted the Pavey bill as presented and x^assed the house. 
 
 Q. How long was that after your bill had been recommitted? 
 A. Tt was reported out on Februai'y 27th; that was February 
 2Sth it was sent back to the committee a'jcnin; it was sent baick 
 the 27th, and all that I know regarding the bill after that; I 
 paid no attention to it at all, until Mari'li lltli, when I received 
 n commnnication' from a gentleman by the name of Charles 
 Frost. 
 
 Mr. Raines lOiffered in evidence letter from Charles Fi'ost, dated 
 March 11, 1895, as follows: 
 "To the Hon. George W. Robertson: 
 
 "Dear Siir. — Oonsidening myself one of your constituents, 1 
 take the liberty to write you after first iissuring myself you 
 wonld feel no offense. I write in relation to that which interests 
 me most deeply, nameily, the Pavey firemen's bill. 
 
 "For a nnmbesp of years past I have looked forward to this 
 measuire, anticipating the passage of the same. This year we 
 had reasons to believe our hopes were to be realized. We were 
 foolish eniouigh to believe and build our castles gn promises re- 
 
405 
 
 oeiyed from the Eepublicam party in return for tliat whieh you 
 are aware of. We silnicerely believed these promises were made 
 in good faith, which yet remains to be seen, but from present 
 indications looks as if they were made to be broken. When our 
 legislative committee, of wholoh I halve the honor to be a mem- 
 ber, was informed that Senatoii Robertson, of Westchester 
 ooniity, was to handle ouir bill iin the Senate, I was more than 
 proud to hear it and felt delighted, and expressed my delight to 
 my fellow committeemen, and laissnred them the cboice wasi an 
 excellent one, as I had the honor to be acquainted with the 
 Seinator and could consider him a friend, and trust you will 
 prove such. Dear sir, my object in writting at this present time 
 is in relation to our bill now being beld by the cities committee. 
 First, I wish to state that our bill stands solely on its meiits|; 
 we are informed some of the Senators tbimk different, but they 
 are under a wrong impression. 
 
 " They do a gireait injustice to us and our counsel, Mr. Sheffield. 
 I give my word of honor as a man and would willingly make an 
 affidavit to that effect, as would every man in onr association, 
 that there is nothing financial behind onr bill. It is the work 
 of others only too well known to ujs, trying to backcap. us in 
 e^ery manner and form, throwing principle of which man should 
 be proud, to the dogs. Tliey oare not how low they stoop iln tile 
 matter and they may yet have the unpleasant task of proving 
 those assertions. 
 
 '' In behalf of my fellow members I deny those assertions and 
 proclaim them all base and maliciouis lies. 
 
 "Hoping you will give your attention to this matter, and 
 trust those few lines coming from us willl con-\ance you before 
 it is too late, that this bill is just wbat I state it is, and that 
 Mr. Sheffield speaks giospel truth relative to that point in this 
 matter, and I appeal to you ais a Senator, as a friend, and as a 
 neighbor for the passage of this bill. 
 
 "Trusting to hear a favorable report of this to-morrow, I 
 remain, 
 
 " Your humble servant, 
 
 " GHAIKLEIS FROST, 
 " Engikie Company 13, 99 Worcester street, N. Y. city." 
 
 (Letter received and marked " Exhibit 3, of May 7, 1895, L. A. 
 
 w! s.") 
 
 Q. Fpon receipt of that leii;er you to'ok the matter under seritous 
 consideration? A. I received that letter on Monday, March 11, 
 in the mail. , 
 
 Q. What is your acquaintance witb Frost? A. I have known 
 him all Ms life. 
 
4oe 
 
 Q. Sort ofa protege of yonirs? A. Tesi, sir; imlmie'di'ately before 
 I retiredl I took my mail home with^ me' and before I retired I 
 answered the letter; I don't keep copies of all my letters and so 
 sent word to him when this unpleasant affair occured; I wrote toi 
 him asMaig him to prodTice a copy of the letter that I sent. 
 
 Mr. EaiheB' offered in evidence a letter dated March 11, 1896, 
 from G«ioirge W. Robertson to Charles Frost, which is as followH: 
 
 "Albajny, March 11, 1895. 
 "Mr. Caiarles Frost, Etog. 13, Wooster St., N. Y. OLty: 
 
 " My Dear Sir. — I am' this evening in receipt of yours of this 
 even date, and am aistonished and surprised at its implication. 
 Of course, as you well know, am not and could not posisibly be 
 in touch with your plans and aims as a department with the 
 measure of last year. I did, however, have my own views of the 
 ease, and thought then as T think now, that, asi another depart- 
 ment was so well provided for in these times of depression there 
 existed no good I'eason why yoiua? department should not be 
 treated equally as well, so that, when the rank ajnd file firemen's 
 bill was given in, I gave it my waimest support, as it met my 
 views as expressed last winter, but when discovering that it was 
 only for a poirtion of the depajctment in its: mandatory form and 
 the other portion being only permiJsisive, and on the suggestion 
 of those equally inteirested with myself, that all the grades of 
 the department should be treated alike, it was but natural for 
 me to coincide with sudh views, ajid give all of the department 
 the benefit, therefore, not only advocating but urging the ranlt 
 and file biQ. I included in the provisions of the bill all grades. 
 This, in my opiniom, would meet with the universal favor of all, 
 as it was for the benefit of all, and, supposed it had been over- 
 looked by Mr. ShefSeld, who seems the most interested in its 
 passage. I do not now think but that the Pavey bill is stronger 
 and more popular with my amendment and both should be passed 
 giving all the members of the deipartment the benefit of the 
 increase. 
 
 " But, you know, as well as all others who know me, that it is 
 foreign from intention or even thought to obstruct the immediate 
 passage of the bill on its merits to the members interested. 
 I am perfectly willing and consent and will move toi report the 
 bill as originally' drawn> but that does not change my views that 
 all branches of the department should be on equal terms of 
 footing.' 
 
 "Youirs truly, 
 
 " GEO. W. ROBEKTSON." 
 
407 
 
 (KeoeiTed in evidence and marked " Exhibit 4, May 7, 1S95, L. 
 A. W. S.") 
 
 Q. This letter was written to you on the date of March 11th? 
 A. Yes, sir; written by me on the same day I received Ms letter; 
 on MoGiday night; on Tuesday we had a meeting of the committee 
 and at the session of the conunittee on Tuesday I mx>ved the bill 
 out; that was March 12th, and on March 13th the record will 
 show the bill reported to the Senate. 
 
 Q. After consideration of this letter you decided upon a ooursie 
 of action? A. Yes, isir. 
 
 Q. Did anybody else have anything to do with your action that 
 day? A. No, air; nobody knew anything about it. 
 
 Q. How soon after that did the bill pass? A. March 25th, I 
 think. 
 
 Q. Mention has been made of a dinner at the Moirton House at 
 which yoiu and Senator Ahearn and Mr. Payn were guests of the 
 offtcers of the firemen's associatioai; was there ever any such 
 dinner? A. I never had the pleasure of attending such a dinner 
 and never heard of it. 
 
 Q. How long since you were at dinner at the Morton House? 
 A. I was there when I took my folks at a Decoration Day's cele- 
 bratiou in 1881; from that time imtil the date mentioned I never 
 dined at the Morton House. 
 
 Q. Down to the present time? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever attend any dinner at iHe Morton House with 
 those ofleers? A. No, sir; I never did at any time. 
 
 By Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. The supposition that Sheffield had overlooked the increase 
 of officers' salaries was dispelled from yiolur mind by Mm before 
 this bill was reported out of the cities committee in its amended 
 f or-m ? A. It was by hite being disisatisfled. 
 
 Q. You understood at that time thlat Mr. Sheffield, who had 
 charge 'of the bill for the increase of the salaries of firemen, re- 
 garded the loading of tMsi amendment on that bill as injurious 
 to the pirospects of the fir'emien's biill? A. I think he said some- 
 thing to tiiat effect, that he was afratild of it,, but I don't think 
 it was that which did »; I think that impression was fixed in 
 my minid in a conversation with someone, possibly Mr. Pavey, 
 that they had assurances that the mayor would accept the bill 
 for the rank and file, but would be apt to veto it in its amended 
 foMn. 
 
 Q. Mr. Firost, who wrote this letter to you, is one of the fire- 
 men, not one of thfe officers? A. T am not piositive about that; 
 
408 
 
 he spoke in thie letter as tlwragh hie were a flrenDaii; I don't 
 know his exact positiloii' in the departmemt. 
 
 Q. Yoiu tmidenstood his letter to you related to the bill in its 
 original fooran for the imcirease otf the firemen's pay? A. Entirely 
 so only sio; and he being on the legislatirve committee, &,s he in- 
 formed me, it had considerable weight and inflnence, and being 
 acquainted with him, he being one of the boys, F tooli it under 
 instant consideration and acted on it instantly. 
 
 By Mr. Badlnes: 
 
 Q. During your conneictiom with this bill did any person con- 
 verse with you at any time on the subject of money raised or 
 in tJie hands of anybody to promofte this bill? A. I never heard 
 of such a thSlag. 
 
 Q. Nerer heard ol any suiggestilon on the subject? A. No, sir; 
 from any source. 
 
 Q. How many memberisi of the cities coimmittee were there? 
 A. Seren. 
 
 By Senator O'Connor: 
 
 Q. Does not the Frost letter intimate something about charges 
 haying been made of improper means being used to pass the bill? 
 A. I think there iia 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear, before the receijpt of that letter, that 
 money was being used to. pass the firemen's bill ? A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Baines: 
 
 Q. Is theie any rule that prevails in the committee that amend- 
 iiumts should not be put on a bill unless the persons interested 
 in gettiirig the legislation was asked about it, or should ask for 
 it? A. I know of no rrale to prevent it. 
 
 Q. There is no rule? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. The views oif the father of the bill do not control your 
 action either in committee or out of it? A. No, sir. 
 
 Adjourned until Wednesiday evening. 
 
409 
 
 Contmittee Eeoomvened Wedmesday eTening in tUe Senate 
 chamT.er art; Albaiay, piursuaml to aidjoumment. 
 
 Present. — Senator O'Connor, chairman, g.ud 'Senators Pound, 
 iriiiiin, Pairiker and Oantor. 
 
 La Fayette B. Gleason, being duly sworn as a witness and 
 examined by Mr. Raines, testified as follows: 
 
 Q. Will yoTi give us the record in the Senate of the Pavey 
 salary bill? A. The Pavey bill, entitled ''Am act to aimend chap- 
 ter two hundred and thirty-four of the laws of eighteen hun- 
 dred and eighty-four, entitled 'An act to regulate the grade and 
 fix the pay or compensation otfl the nuifornied uieiiibers of the 
 fire depatrtmient in all cities of this State, having- according to 
 the last census, a populart^ion ex(.'eeding eight hundred thou- 
 sand,' ■' was received from the Assembly 07i Thursday, February 
 7th; the receptiilon number of the bill is 52; the bill on Its 
 reception was read the first and second time and referred to the 
 committee om cities; the record appears on page 219 of the 
 Senate journal of date February 7thJ; the committee on cities 
 reported this bill on March 13th at page 605 of the Senate 
 jounial, which report was aigtcieed to and the bill was committed 
 to the committee olf the whole, on Wednesday, March 13th; the 
 bill was considered in commjlttee of the whole on March 20th; 
 the record appears on paige 738 of the Senate journal; it was 
 the fifth bill considered that day in the committee of the whole, 
 and was, on report of the comflnittee, ordered to a third reading; 
 on Martch 25th it was amenided at page 773 of the journal, and 
 the bill had its third reading and was passed and ordered sent 
 to the Assembly; it was transmitted to tlu> Asseuibiv on the 
 following day, under the rulie, March 26th. 
 
 Q. It wais passed on what day? A. The 25th day of March. 
 
 By Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q, Have you the record of the bill, Senate bill, introduced by 
 Senator Bobertson, No. 242, introductory 232? A. I have. 
 
 Q. Whten was that introduced? A. On the 25th of 'January; 
 it appears on the 126tih! page of the Senaitle journal, Friday, Janu- 
 ary 25thi; the introiductory number is 232; printed number 242; 
 that Mil was reported on the 27th day of February at page 410 
 of the joramal, from the committee on cities; it was reported at 
 page 411; it was reported, with amendments, and ordered com- 
 mitted to the committee of the whole ; on the same day, on page 
 416 of the journal, Mr. Mullin offered a resolution that the bill 
 be recommitted to the committee on cities, retaining its place 
 F. 52 
 
41© 
 
 ' in oommittee of the whole, which resolution was adopted; that Is 
 thie last entry which appears on the Senaitle joiuiraial, with! refer- 
 ence to that bill. 
 
 John Raines^ being duly swoirn as a witness and examined by 
 Mr. Raines, testified as follows: 
 
 Q. At any time. Senator, were you awane of the existence off 
 any fund ciollected among the firemen of the city of New York for 
 use in any manne*^ in ootnnection with the Pavey salary bill, or 
 what is known as the offloers' amendment toi that bill? A. I 
 never was. 
 
 Q. During the pendency of that bill or amendment, did you 
 hear of sujch a fund? A. I never did. 
 
 Q. Did youi have a conversation with any person in connection 
 with isuich a matter? A. I never did. 
 
 Henry J. Ooggeshall, being duly sworn as a witness and exam 
 ined by Mir. Raines, testified as follows: 
 
 . Q. During the pendency of the Pavey salary bill in the Sen- 
 ate, did yooi at any time hear of the existence of any fund which 
 had been raised in the fire department of New York, with refer- 
 ence to such bill, or with reference to any officersi' amendinent to 
 tliat bill? A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Did anybody talk with you on the subject of any such fund? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Senaitor Ooiggeshiall, by peatnisi^ion of the committee, made the 
 following statement: 
 
 " I want to say that I was for the IJavey bill, socalled, fromi 
 start to finish!, and I so informed Senator Ahearn, as soon as 
 the matter came before the committee of the whoie, as we term 
 it here, and that was the first knowledge I had of the bill. I 
 don't think I had reajd about it; I am! not a member of the cities 
 committee, and do not attend their meetings; the bill came before 
 the committee of the whole, and I then told Senator Ahearn it 
 would afford me pleasure to vote for and do what I could in 
 behalf of the bill, and when it oame uip on final passage, I had 
 some notes prepared with which to speak in favor, although that 
 might have endangered the bill, and I did vote for it; I knew 
 nothing about the officerisi' amendment, until I saw about it in 
 the papersi; the only time I saw these ofllcers was before the 
 judHdary committee opposing the bill, known as the exemirt 
 firemen's bill, and I was against thte officers then, and Inten- 
 tionally 90, and would have been against the offloers had I 
 known of their amendmeaoi, because I would have felt as I do 
 
411 
 
 now, that it migM have endangered the paaisage of the firemen's 
 bill ; I was actuated in no way by ulterior motives or undue influ- 
 ence in. my oousideratiioin of that bill, and vote for it. 
 
 Mr. EiainesL — I have a certiflcate of a physician in regard to 
 the condition of Mrs. McCabe, whose testimony I expected to prio- 
 duoe, that sihe is unable to be here; the certiflcate wasi fumisihed 
 me by the sergeant-at-arms, and is made by Dr. Purdy. 
 
 Mr. Rainea — The boobs bromght here for examination of wit- 
 nesses by the other side, I assxime they have used all they care to 
 and they might as well ble returned to the officers; I would say, 
 further, that I have two witnesses to examine, whose examination 
 can not proceed without documentary evidence which is on tihe 
 mail on the way here but has not arrived; it is expected to be 
 here to^morroiw ; we expect to put Mr. Payn on the witness stand, 
 and are waiting for documentary evi'dence whidh is necessai^y 
 to make the exaonination satisfactory toi the other side as well 
 as himself. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Can't you examine him without it? 
 
 Mr. Balnea — I can't very well. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Can't you put in the documentary evi- 
 dence afterward? 
 
 Mr. Haines. — -Not very well. 
 
 Mr. Eoot. — I have some documentary evidence which may be 
 of assistance to the oomm,ittee, which I will offer. I read from 
 the City Record, the official paper of New York, from the publi- 
 cation of the list of officers and salaries which is required by 
 law to be made in January of each year. I have the City Record 
 of January 31, 1895. The salary of the chief of the fire depart- 
 ment is f 6,000; the two deputy chiefs each |4,500; the 13 chiefs 
 of batfcaliiions |3,300 each; the 86 foremen or captains of com- 
 panies |2,160 each; the 97 assistant foremeni $1,800 each. I read 
 from the bill, as amended in the Senate, 'No. 647, the salary of 
 the chief remains at $6,000; the salary of the two deputy chiefs 
 is increased to |4,500 each; the isalary of the 13 chiefs of bat- 
 talion is increased to $3,500 eachJ; the salary of the captains or 
 foremen to $2,500 each, and of the assistant captains or assistant 
 foremeUi to $2,000, each maiking a total increase of annual sala- 
 ries piayiable out of the treasury oif the city of New York by this 
 amenJdmeat introduced by Senator Robertson in the cities com- 
 mittee of the Senate of $51,840. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — Have you tabiulated the increase granted by the 
 Pavey bill to the uniformed firemen? 
 
 Mr. Root — I have not 
 
 (Mm offered in evidencie a certified copy from the records of 
 the fire department of tlhie leaves of absences granted to those 
 
412 
 
 firemen' and officers who haye been before the committee. Fore- 
 mam Firei^l, Tobin, Fiaher, Smirtih and Buths, Eeceived and' 
 marked " Exhibit 1 of May 8th, 1895, L. A. W. S.") 
 
 The MlOTOng is a correct traaisiariifpt from the reooirdsi of the 
 fire depairtment of the city oifl New York, showing the leares of 
 absence granted duuing Janiuary, Febmairy, March and April, 
 1S95, of Foremen Gooderson, Freel, Fisher, Burns, Tobin and 
 rfmith as follows, to-wit: 
 
 Foreman Gooderson, Elnigine Oompialny 35: January 1, 24 
 hours, regular; Janiuairy 8, 24 honurs, regnlar; Jamnary 15, 24 
 hours, regular; January 22, 24 hours^ regular; January 29, 24 
 hours, regular,; FebruJairy 5, 24 hours regular; Febuary 12, 24 
 hours, regular; Febniairy 19, 24 hoiuTO, regular; February 24, 
 12 hours, special; Febniiany 26, 24 hioiurs, regular; March 5, 24 
 hours, reguJar; Mardx 12, 24 hours, megiular; March 19, 24 hours, 
 regular; Majrch 26, 34 hooMis, regular; April 2, 24 hours, regular; 
 April 9, 24 hours regular; April 16, 24 hours, regular. 
 
 Forem^aai Freel, Engine Comtpany 20 : Mardh 3, 24 hours, regu- 
 lar; March 6, 24 hoiurs, special; March 7, 24 houirs, cegular: March 
 14, 24 hoiurs, regulairi; March 19, 24 hours, speci'al ; March 21, 24 
 hours, regular; Mairch 26, 24 hiours, special; March 28, 24 hours, 
 regular; A'pril 2, 24 hours, special; April 4, 24 hiooirs, regular; 
 April 9, 24 hours, special; April 11, 24 hours, regular; April 13, 
 12 hoiurs, special; April 15, 48 hours, special; Apoil 18, 24 hours, 
 regular. 372. 
 
 Foremiam Freel was in the office of fire marshal before March 
 1, 1895, and whatever leaves were obtained before that time were 
 granted by thie fire marshal. 
 
 Assistant Foreman Tobin, Engine Company 23 : January 2, 24 
 honns, regular; January 7, 24 hours, regular; January 28, 24 hours, 
 regular; February 4, 24 hours, regular; February 11, 24 hours, 
 regular; February 19, 12 hoairs, special; Februairy 25, 24 hours, 
 regular!; March 4, 24 honrs, regular; March 6, 48 hours, special ; 
 March 11, 24 houirs, regular; March 18, 24 hours, regular; March. 
 19, 24 hours, special; March 25, 24 houirs, regular; March 26, 24 
 hours, sipecial; April 1, 24 hours, regular; April 2, 24 hours, 
 special; April 8, 24 hours, regular; April 9, 24 hours, special; 
 April 12, 24 hours, regular; Api*il 15, 24 hours'^ regular; April 22, 
 24 hours, regular. 516. 
 
 . Foreman Fisher, Engine Company 25: January 5, 24 
 hours, regular; January 12, 24 hours, regular; Januarj- 
 19, 24 hours, regular; January 26, 24 hour®, regular; 
 February 2, 24 hours, regular; February 16, 24 hours, 
 regular; February 23, 24 hourSi regular; March 2, 24 hoiurs, regu- 
 lar; March 6, 24 hours, regular; March 7, 24 hours, special; March 
 
413 
 
 16, 24 hours, regular; March 19, 24 hours', regular; March 26, 24 
 hours, special; March 20, 24 hours, regular; Ajprll 2, 24 hours, 
 special; A;pri] 6, 24 hours, regnilar; April 11, 24 hoiurs, regular; 
 Apiil 16, 24 hours, sp_ecial ; April 20, 24 boui-s, regular. 456. 
 
 Asisistant Foreman Smith, Hook and Ladder Compauy 2 : Janu- 
 ary 1, 24 hours, regular; January 8, 24 hours, regular; January 
 16, 24 hours, regular; January 22, 24 hours, regular; January 29, 
 24 hoursi, regular; February 5, 24 hours, regular; February 12, 24 
 hours, regular; Febiiiary 19, 24 hours, regular; February 26, 24 
 hours, regular; March 5, 24' hours, regular; March 12, 24 hoursi, 
 regular; Miarch 19, 24 hours, regular; March 26, 24 hours, regular; 
 April 2, 24 hours, regular; April 9, 24 hours^ regular; April 16, 24 
 hours, regular. 384. 
 
 Foreman Burns, Hook and Ladder Company 1: January 5, 24 
 hours, reg-ulair; January 13, 24 hoiurs, regular; Janiuiaiy 20, 24 
 hours, regular!; January 27, 24 hours, regular; February 3, 24 
 hours, regular; February 16, 24 hours, regular; Febniary 22, 12 
 hours, special; February 23, 24 hours, regular; March 2, 24 hours, 
 regular; March 3, 24 hours, special; March 6, 48 hours, special; 
 March 9, 24 hours, regular; March 16, 24 hours, regular; March 
 19, 24 hours, special; March 23, 24 hours, regular; March 26, 24 
 hours, special; March 30, 24 hours, regular; April 6, 24 hours, 
 I'egular; April 7, 12 hoiurs, special; April 9, 24 hours, special; 
 April 10, 24 hours, regular; April 11, 24 hours, special; April 14, 
 24 hours, regular; April 16, 72 hours, special; April 21, 24 hours, 
 regular. 648. 
 
 John J. Bums, being duly recalled and further examined by 
 Mr. Raines, testified as follows: 
 
 Q. Have you been thinking over the date of the interview 
 between yourself and' Mr. Payn, which you spoke of as occurring 
 in Albany at first, and afterwards at! the 'Grand Union Hotel, at 
 ISTew York? A. I was not posirtivp at the time for the reason that 
 I had made no memorandum; I now know it was abo'ut the 22d 
 or 23d of February in the Grrand Union Hotel, on the lounge, as 
 you go in. 
 
 Q. Circumstances have come back to you in regard to the place 
 of that interview? A. Exactly. 
 
 Q. That is the interview at which Payn spoke to you of the 
 Pavey bill? A. Yes, sii-; that is the time. 
 
 By Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. Mr. Burrusi, is the conversation to which you refer the same 
 conversatiou to which you testifled in your former examination? 
 
%11 
 
 A. That fs the oonversatioii; I was not then positive; I said so 
 IheiL 
 
 Q. My questioin is, whfetlier it is the conversation which you 
 now testify as hajving taken place on the sofa, at the Grand 
 Union Hotel, on the 23d of Februiary, is the same you testified to 
 before on this investigatilom? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. The only conversation yon had with Payn on the siabjeot of 
 the officens' salary bill ? A. I don't know that it is the only con- 
 versartiOn; it is the onJy conversation I can call to mind. 
 
 Q. Did yoTi remjember that conversation when you testified 
 before? A. I stated it exactly. 
 
 Q. Did you remember it? A. I didn't remember the exact 
 lime of its occiurrence; I remiembered the conversation distinctly. 
 
 Q. Did you rememiber where it oocuOTed When you testified 
 before? A. I did not remember where it occurred. 
 
 By SeinJator O'Connor: 
 
 Q. You did not remember when you testified before? A. 1 
 did not , 
 
 By Mr. Eioot: 
 
 Q. Do you remember this testimony of yourself before tiiis 
 committee on a former meetStng of the committep in the city of 
 New Yoirk; I inead from page 138 of the minutes of the testimony, 
 " Had you had that conversation before youj finst went to Albany 
 with the committee on the preseint tax bill? A. No." A. I sup- 
 jmse I answered mo. 
 
 Q. Why did you tell me you hadn't that conversation before 
 \ on first went to Albany with the committee on the 2 per cent, 
 tax bill if you had it on the 22d or 23d of Febniai"y in the Grand 
 TTnion Hotel? A. I distinctly stated at that time that I did 
 not remiembep the date or time or plaice of its occurrence. 
 
 By Senator O'Connor: 
 
 Q. You did state, as a matter of fact, in connection with 
 another matter that you oomld mot fail to remember that yoTi 
 had no Comveirsartiom' with himi prior to going to Albany? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 By Mr. Boot: i 
 
 Q. You never went to Albany with a committee in relation to 
 the 2 per cent tax bill duiring the year 1895 prior to the 5th 
 of March of that year, dSd you? A. Not prior toi the 6th of 
 Marchl; I think it was the 6th or 7th. 
 
415 
 
 Q. H you had tib.© coniTereation to wMch you referired with 
 Mr. Basyn in the Grajnd Uniiloii Hotel on the 2&6. or 23d of Feb- 
 ruary and did not go to Albany with a: committee until the 6th 
 ol MajrcW, why did you tell me that you did not hare the con- 
 versatiion before you first went to Albany with the coimmittee? 
 A. I told you because I could not recollect; that is the reason. 
 
 By Senator O'Conooirl: 
 
 Q. In that connection what facts haye comje to your knowl- 
 edge since to fix your recollection different? A. I have looked 
 over certain maitters and discovered it was on that time. 
 
 Q. Have you memorandaj?' A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Whiat fact occurs to your mind that fixes your recollection 
 that this occurred prilor to going to Albany? A. I have had 
 time to consider and noiw kuow it was on Saturday or Friday 
 night, thei 28d or 24th of Februiairy, before going to Albany. 
 
 By Mr. Eoott; ; 
 
 Q. Hoiw do youi know? A. I have had time to consider; I knk>w 
 from oomisadering the matter ever since. 
 
 Q. You say you looked over certain matters; what matters 
 have yoiu loioked over? A. My own thoughts. 
 
 Q. I revert to my questilon, why did youi tell me in answer to 
 my question, whether you had the eonversaifcion betfore you went 
 to Albany on the 6th of MaiTch that you did not? A. I know of 
 not ofthear ireason thani that I could not determine dates. 
 
 Q. That was niotl a question, of dates ; it was a question whether 
 you had that cotoversia/tion before yo'u went to Albany with the 
 committee? A. It was a question of time and I could not deter- 
 mine. 
 
 Q. "Why did you tell if you could' not determine? A. i: don't 
 know that I did tell you. 
 
 Q. Do you dispute the record of tlie stenographer?, A. 1 did 
 not intend to answer cleairly in that way. 
 
 Q. "Had you had thiat colnversation before youi first went to 
 Albany with the committee on the present tax bill ? A. No, , 
 sir." Why did you tell me that? A. I made a mistake. 
 
 Q. At the time you saSld thaitl did you think you hadn't had the 
 conversation before you went to Albaioy? A. I was not positive. 
 
 Q. I ask you, if at the time you testified, you did not think 
 you had the conversation before you went to Albany with the 
 comimittee? A. I was not positiive, that is all I can say. 
 
 Q. I wajnti ami ansiwer to that question? A. I presume I thought 
 so at the time. 
 
416 
 
 Q. Do you remember testifying as I now read: "Had you had 
 it belfloire youir second visit to Albany on the 2 per ceint. tax bill ? 
 A. No, sir; yoTX understand I don't know whether I spoke to hku 
 the first time I went to Albany or the second. Q. Did you have 
 this conversationi in Albany om either the first or second visit? 
 A. I did." Do you remiem,ber testify ijig so? A. I don't remember. 
 
 Q. Was it true? A. Wajs what true? 
 
 Q. This testimony I have read, taken down by the stenographer 
 from your lips? A. I don't understand the question. 
 
 Q. "Had you had that convensation before you first went to 
 Albany with the conamittee' on the present taix bill? A. No. 
 Q. Had you ha.d it before your second visit to Albany on the 2 
 per cent, tax bill? A. No; you understand I do not know whetlhei- 
 I spoke to him the first time I went to Albany or the second. 
 Q. Did you have this conversation in Albany on either the firsi 
 or second visit? A. I did." The question is whether that testi- 
 mony is true? A. It was time; I did have the conversation. 
 
 Q. Why did you say yoiu had that identical conversation with 
 Fayn on the 22d or 23d of Pebrnaiy which was more than a, 
 week before you went to Albany on cither of those visits? A. I 
 had such a conversation on those ^dsits in connection wi13i tlie 
 same conversation in New York. 
 
 Q. You had, then, more than one conversation with Payn on 
 this subject? A. I did speak to him; I don't remember it. 
 
 Q. What conversation do you now say you don't remember? 
 A. I don't remember the exact natnire of the conversation; I had 
 seen him in Albany. 
 
 Q. What conversation did you refer to when you say you don't 
 remember the exact natnire of it? A. I called upon Payn and he 
 upon me once or tTvice. 
 
 Q. Whal^ conversation is it which you say now you don't remem- 
 ber the nature of that conversation ? A. I have answered the quesi- 
 tion; in answer to that, I think we came to Albany on five or 
 six occasions, and I, perhaps, saw Payn two, three or four times 
 here in a casual way, but I don't remember the conversation. 
 
 By Senator O'Connor: 
 
 Q. The oon\'ei'sa(tion called for is the conversation brought up 
 by what you had to say to Payn in regai'd to the officers' pay? 
 A. I remember hie referred to that matter in New York, and, I 
 think, he did here as well in just about the same terms. 
 
 By Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. How many such conversations did you have? A. T don't 
 remember. 
 
417 
 
 Q. Toiu had two at least? A. Yes; perhaps two* or more. 
 
 Q. You had more than one oonversation in just about the same 
 terms? A. I had one; I ami positive of that; that one in New 
 York. 
 
 Q. You now can't rememiber anythlhg about the oonversatibn 
 in Albany ? A. They were all of such minor tmiportance in con- 
 nection with that matter, that I can't remember. 
 
 Q. Do you remember about them? A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Why did you tell me that the conversation you have testi- 
 fied 'spectfioally to was a conversation between you and Payn 
 iU Albany? A. I thought it was at that time; I have discovered 
 ^ince it was not. 
 
 Q. Did you discover it by any other means than by consulting 
 your own thoughts? A. That is all I have had tunie to consider. 
 
 Q. You testified as fbllowsi according to the record: "Q. The 
 conversatiion you talk' about is the conversation you had at 
 Albany with Payn when you went there with the committee 
 either the first or second time? A. Yes, sir." Was that true? A. 
 He perhaps spoke to me in the same terms he did in ISew York; 
 I intended it should be true 
 
 Q. Was it true? A. I find out I was a little off as to times 
 and datea 
 
 Q, You say it was not true? A. I didn't intend it should not 
 be true; I don't recollect as having been pioisitive as to what time 
 I spoke to Payn. 
 
 Q. The conversa,tibn you told is the conversation you had at 
 Albany with Payn when he went there with the committee 
 either the first or second time; was that true or not? A. I don't 
 think I had a conversation there the first or second time; I find 
 it is not true, but I intended it should be. 
 
 Q. "What did you isay? A. I was asking him to help us in 
 this 2 per cent, tax matter, and when I wasi about to leave he 
 remarked that the firemen were likely to get an increase of pay 
 and he says ypu ought to be glaid of that, and I says, ' I am glad 
 of that, but I says, it does not affect or benefit me personally; ' 
 he isays, ' How is that; are the ofScers not in that bill ? ' I told himi 
 they were not; he s'ays, ' I will have to look into that and see what 
 can be done in the ma,tter.' " That is the conversation you are 
 talking about? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. "Q. What else? A. Nothing; I took a walk." Was that 
 true? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did you take that walk? A. Out of the hotel. 
 
 Q. What hotel? A. Grand Union Hotel. 
 
 Q. Do you remember that walk? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Why did you testify to it? A. I do remember it. 
 
 F. m 
 
418 
 
 Q. Why didn't yotu tell me you did? A. I didn't remeniber 
 then ; the lounges in the hotel are rery Aiilajn to those here. 
 
 Q. When yoiu testified you had that convadsation with Payn 
 in Albany, and alteu those words were spoken' joas said you 
 took a walk, doi yoiui remember the walk? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Why did you testify you did? A. I didn't remeanber. 
 
 Q. You rememiber you took a walk, but you don't iiemember 
 whether it was from the Grramd Union Hotel, or from Payn's 
 rooms in Albany? A. It was walk aiway from. Payn's. 
 
 Q. When you testified in answer to that question, " what else; " 
 " nothing, I took a walk; " did yon mean nothing but that you 
 walked away from Payn? A. ThJat is all I meant. 
 
 Q. You don't remember whether you were walking in Albany 
 or New York? A. Not distilnctly; no. 
 
 Q. You testified so, because you are in the habit of taking a 
 walk after a conversaition of thW; kind? A. Yes, sir; I usually 
 walk. 
 
 Q. "What else was said? A. Nothing. Q. That the whole 
 conversation? A. I had been speaking to him for some time in 
 general conversation about this 2 per cent, tlaix matter which 
 wais to us important. Q. Have you given tie wbole conversa- 
 tion about the inoPease of salaries? A I have. You said noth- 
 ing more to him than you have told us here? A. No, sir. Q. 
 That was on the second occasion of the committee's visit to 
 Albany in the session of 1895? A. I am; quite positive it was. 
 Q. That was in the city of Albany? A. It was." Was that true? 
 A. It was and it i's also true th^t I d&d see him hiere; with 
 regard to that I say I was mistaken; I admit I was mistaken; 
 I had no memoirandum of diate; I wish to be wholly true and 
 fair and conceal nothing; I was not fixed with time or date. 
 
 Q. When you testified for thte third time that that conversa- 
 tion was in the cilty of Albany, was it true or was it not? A. 
 That conversation was in New York. 
 
 Q. And was not in AJbtay? A No, sir; that was a mistake. 
 
 Q. Youi ifiurther tesitified: "Q. Prior to that time had you 
 never exchlanged a word with Payn on the subject of the increase 
 of officers' salaries? A. I had not." Was it true? A. That was 
 true in reference to tihe first conversation. 
 
 Q. It was true pirior to your first visit to Albany, yon never 
 had exchanged a word with Payn on the subject of Mie increase 
 of officers' salaries? A. That was not true. 
 
 Q. ''Between the close of the Legislature of IcSui, and the 1st 
 of February, 1895, have you seen him in New York and on what 
 occasion? A. He has dropped iin the fire department to see me 
 and I have dipopped into the Grand Union Hotel; I would see 
 
419 
 
 Mm and his son occasionally on my day off * * I would 
 meet them and say ' good evening ' to them. Q. During this same 
 time did yon have any conversation with Payn in respect to 
 raising the ofQoer's' salairies? A. None. Q. Never until the oc- 
 casions yon have related in Albany in 1895? A. That is jnst 
 what I mean to say." Was that testiknony true? A That was 
 true, except the Albany poirtion. 
 
 Q. Mr. Burns, you have stated yon were not positive on the 
 subject of where this interview took place here to-night; did 
 you express the slightest question or doubt upon that subject 
 until Mr. Baines, the counsel who put you upon the stand, Lad . 
 intimated to you by his questions that he wished you to review 
 your testimony upon that subject? A. Yes, sir; in answer to 
 every question yoai asked me; I told you I was not positive as 
 to time and places and dates. 
 
 Q. Do you say yoiu expresisi the slightest doubit or question as 
 to the place oir occasion of that conversation before Mr. Eaines 
 put this question toi you upon youT redirect examination', "Are 
 you definite in your recollection as to whether that talk between 
 you and Payn was in Albany or New York; " and you answered, 
 "I have seen him bbith in New York and Albany; I am sure 
 he onentioned that fact to me ih Albany.'' A. I think the same 
 answer. T made to the last questiom would answer that; in evoi-y 
 quest ion you asked me as to dates and time and place I told 
 jou I was not positive as to dates and time and place. 
 
 <). I call your attention that it is not a. question of dates or 
 tiine? A. Tt is of place. 
 
 Q. It is a question of occasion; I would like to have you answeir 
 that question? A. There was considerable doubt in my mind; if 
 I didn't express it I intended to. 
 
 Q. Tf you di'dn'ti express doubt, it was a failure on your part toi 
 express your intention? A. Yes, sir. ' 
 
 Q. How does it happen that you stated with, particularity the 
 words of the oonvensation that you had with Payn, and stated 
 over and over again to me that it was on a particular occasion 
 in the city of Albany (New York) and you never had any conver- 
 sation on the subject with him before you went toi Albany on 
 that occasion; when, in fact, you now say, the conversation was 
 prior to that in the city of New York? A. Siknply because yon 
 referred to the first, second and third visits to Albany, and don't 
 refer to any other -sdsit to Albany or conversations at any other 
 place, and in answer to that, I suppose I said yes or no. 
 
 Q. If you remember the occasion at which sraoh conversations 
 took place, how does it happen that you were without! any idea 
 
420 
 
 of where or when the cionyersation was when yom testified before? 
 A. Because I have seen Mr. Payn a great many tiinies in New 
 York amd on several oicoaslons in Albany, and was not positive 
 as to where it was. 
 
 Q. Did any siadh' conversation ever take place? A. Yes, sir; I 
 said so tnitlifully before. 
 
 Q. Why could you not tell before whew it was? A. I didn't 
 remember. 
 
 Q. How do you remember now? A. I have had time to 
 consider. 
 
 Q. Hadn't you had time toi consider before you went on the 
 stand before? A. I didn't know what I would be asked; I went 
 there to tell the truth. 
 
 Q. Didn't you go on the witness stand intending to eacplafin and 
 relate that conversation? A. I did not know the nature of thfe 
 examination; I did not know the nature of the examination 
 at all. 
 
 Q. You did not know what you were to testify on the stand? 
 A. I didn't care what I was asked; I was prepared to answer 
 truthfully. 
 
 Q. You didn't care what you testifled to? A. I did not say 
 that. 
 
 Q. My question is whether yon didn't have amy idea what yon 
 were going to testify, when you took iie stand? A. 1 had no 
 idea of testifying toi date's!, or visits' to Albany, or .fixing conversa- 
 tions with anybody, if I had I woiuld have been prepared to state 
 on what occasions they occurred. 
 
 Q. You knew youi were going to testify to that oonversatSton 
 with Payn, when youi went on the stand? A. I did not. 
 
 Q. When you went on the witness stand, yon knew it had been 
 publicly charged in an article in The Press newspaper, which led 
 to this investigation, that a bill for the increase of the officers' sala- 
 rlies had been put in the hands of Payn by you? A. I didn't take 
 any stock in the article; I did not know, the nature of it exactly. 
 
 Q. Did yon read it? A. Partly. 
 
 Q. What part of it did you read? A. I don't think that article 
 referred to my talking with Payn. 
 
 Q. What part of the article did you read? A. Perhaps, I read 
 the whole of it; I am not positive. 
 
 Q. Yoni say you read it partly; now, I ask yom what part you 
 read ? A. I know I saw the word boodle. 
 
 Q. That all you rea;d? A. I guess I went all through it. 
 
 Q. Did you read with considerable interest? A. I don't know 
 that it bothered me much or interested me mnicih. 
 
421 
 
 Q. You read this, didn't you: "These facts suggest, if they do 
 not wholly prove, that the measure introduced by Senator Eobert- 
 son, as a subsititute for the Pavey salary bill, was a strike for 
 money; that it was so understood by the offtcers of the fire 
 department; that it resulted from negotiations in which ex-Mai^ 
 shall Louis F. Payn was a conspicuous figure; that the terms of 
 negotiations required the raising among the firemen of this city of 
 $45,0(»0 to be distributed among the senators who were alleged to 
 be in the deal; " you read that? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You knew, didn't you, that you were one who had a conver- 
 sation with Louis F. Payn relating to this bill, upon wliich he 
 took such action as he took? A. I don't appear in the article; 
 did not know I was held responsible for Mr. Payn's actions. 
 
 Q. Do you think anybody else was? A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. What did youi think about that article? A. I don't 
 remember. 
 
 Q, Any recollection: what you thought? A. I didn't give it 
 very serious consideration. 
 
 Q. Wlien you went on the witness stand after reading this 
 article, which charged! that this amendment was the result of 
 oorrupt negotiation by Louis F. Payn, do you mean to tell this 
 committee you had no idea of testifying regarding the conversa- 
 tion you had with Payn? A. I didn't give it a thought in' 
 advance; if I had I would have been prepared with exact dates, 
 times and places. 
 
 Q. You mean when youi went on the witness stand, you hadu't 
 thought of this conversation with Payn? A. I didn't recall it to 
 my mind until you asked me the question, and then I remeim- 
 bered it. 
 
 Q. Do you mean when you went on the witness stand you 
 hadn't thought of the conversation with Payn? A. I don't know 
 whether I had or not. 
 
 Q. Didn't you state toi Mr. Kainesi, before your direct examina- 
 tion was completed, what that conversation, was? A. I think I 
 stated it to you first, didn't I? 
 
 Q. My question is whether you stated to' Eayies what the oou- 
 versatiou was? A. The first time I stated that conversation 
 was on the witness standL 
 
 (Stenographer repea,ted the qtiestion.) 
 
 A. I did not ) ' 
 
 Q. Didl you state it to anybody before you went om the witness 
 stand? A, I did not. 
 
 Q. Did you state to anybody before you went on the witness 
 stand that you had ai conversation with Payn on this subject? 
 A. I don't inecollect that I did. 
 
422 
 
 Q. I read flrom yolir amswers to Mn. Kiaineis' questions: "Was 
 there a time wlien this talk took soiae form at Albany in regard 
 to a proiTlsion in the salary bill ? A. In the talk I had with Payn 
 while speaking with him in relation to the 2 per cemt, tax 
 measune hte saaid, ' the flremen will get their salaries increased,' 
 and, etc.; that was all the talk 1 had in connection with that 
 measure with Mr. Payn." Do yoiu know how- Mr. Raines got the 
 infonmaitioni upon which to put that question? A. I do not. 
 
 Q. You neTer mentioned it to him? A, No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or anyone? A. I don't recoUecit that I did. 
 
 Q. You never thought of the conveirsation before it was called 
 out fromi you by his question? A. I can't say whetheir I thought 
 of it on not; I don't think: out loud. 
 
 Q. How many conversations do you now say you had with 
 Payn on the subject of the iincrease of the firemen's salaries? 
 A. I don't remember more than one or two, I guess. 
 
 Q. Did you have more tharn one? A- Perhaps I did. 
 
 Q. Did you? A. I can't answer. 
 
 Q. You don't remember whether you had more than one? A. 
 I think he had referred to that matter in Albany; I know the 
 first time was in New York. 
 
 Q. Do yoiu remembeiB whether youi had more than one? A. I 
 now do remembeir I had miore than one. 
 
 Q. How many did you have? A, I wUl say two. 
 
 Q. Did you have two? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ha.ve more than two? A. I did not, to the best of 
 my knowledge and belief. 
 
 Q. Where were the two? A. One waJs tn the Grand Union 
 Hotel, and the other in this building in the city of Albany. 
 
 Q. Whereabouts in this building? A. In the Senate library. 
 
 Q. When was it? A. On some one of the occasions when we 
 came to Albany in connection with the 2 per cent, tax matter. 
 
 Q. What was the conversation? A. Something isimilar to the 
 conversation in New York. 
 
 Q. Tell me what it was? A. I don't remember; I presume he 
 referred to the s^^,lary bill. 
 
 Q. Give me your recollection? A. I don't Tecollect it. 
 
 Q. You have no recollection as to what the conversation was? 
 A. I have not. 
 
 Q. You know it was about the increase o!P officers' salaries? 
 A. The principal topic of conversation wais in connection with 
 the 2 per cent, tax matter, and perhaps he referred to this 
 matter. 
 
 Q. You testified you had two conversations about the salary 
 bill? A. I said that to satisfy you. 
 
4^ 
 
 Q. Are you willing to sweaa? to wWatt satisfies me? A. If it is 
 the truth. 
 
 Q. If it was the truth yotui testified to it because it was a true 
 answer to the question? A. Yes, siTw 
 
 Q. You did have another com,versatioii! with Payn than the 
 one you testiLfied to before, on the subject of the salary bill? A. 
 I did; I don't recollect what it was. 
 
 Q. You have no recollecitiom aS what passed between Payn and 
 you on that subject? A. I have not. 
 
 Q. Why didn'tl you tell me about that conversation; when I 
 examined you? A. I would if I had thought of it 
 
 Q. You had no recollection of it whatever? A. I didn't recol- 
 lect at that time; I have seen Payn on several oooasions; I didn't 
 recollect at that time of having met him first in ISTew York, and 
 that is why I said it was in Albany. 
 
 Q. Did you! have any more conversations with' hiiim- that you 
 don't remember? A. Yes, sir; a great many. 
 
 Q. On this subject? A. No^ sir. 
 
 Q. You remember that now? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You won't come back and make another change? A. I 
 might change the form if I (remembered something new; 1 tell 
 the truth on any occasion. 
 
 Q. Before you went on the witness stand first in this investi- 
 gation, yoix had read this statement in an article in The Press 
 of April 18th, had you not? "Subsequent investigations and 
 ' actual revelations brought out the fact that a committee of 
 officers exilsted, composed of Mr. Burns and others who' were 
 placed in charge of the legislative interests of the officers;" you 
 lead that? A, I did. 
 
 Q. Youi knew when you went on the stand that this article, in 
 effect, charged you with being concerned with Mr. Payn in prO'- 
 moting this legdlslation by the use of money, did you not? A, 
 T did not connect the article in that way. 
 
 Q. Did you examine your own thoughts with the result of the 
 clorreotion' oi your testimony which you have made the night 
 before you ascertained that the testimony you had given about 
 this alleged conversation with Payn in Albany was totally at 
 variance with other proved' facts in this case? A. I can't an- 
 swer that intelligibly. 
 
 Q. SSinice you have examined your own thoughts that you do 
 not Imow, or did not know at the time you were coming up here 
 throughont the session of ISO'S, what a lobbyist was? A. I will 
 have to stick to my first issue; I don't know. 
 
 Q. Do you, after an examination of your own talk, still testify 
 that you have no idea and never had any idea of how this 
 
424 
 
 amendment, increasing the oflflcers' salaries, got on this bill? A. 
 I did not know how it got there until I saw it in the papers; I 
 presume when I did see the amendment that Payn had put it 
 there, but not at my request or that I knew it was to be done, 
 or anything of the kindL 
 
 Q. After your examination of your own talk, do you still testify 
 that prior to seeing the article in The Press that led to this 
 im'estigation here, you heaird nothing of a rumor, or of a sug- 
 gestion that money was being raised among the officers of the 
 fire department to get through that amendment? A. 1 have no 
 knowledge of anything oil the kind and haTe noi recollection of 
 hearing such a rumor. 
 
 ii. Do you take the papers in Truck ]!To. 1 house? A. Yes, sir; 
 we don't tate The Pressi 
 
 Q. You have discontinued The Press? A We never took it. 
 
 Q. You take the Herald? A. Yes, sii?. 
 
 Q. And the World? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you read them? A. When I have time. 
 
 Q. Did you look at the article to which Chief Bonner referred 
 when he told you he would resign, if the officers went on? A. 
 I don't recollect of having seen such an article. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any officer of the fire department who is as 
 innocent as you? A I tiiink I am the best ftellow in tlw; business. 
 
 Q. Do any such innocent fellows come from Chatham? A It 
 is a greaib school there. 
 
 Q. Is Louis F. Payn father confessor of the school? A. I never 
 went to confession to Mr. Payn. 
 
 By Mr. Eaines: 
 
 Q. Yon recollect being esamined at considerable length in 
 New York by Mr. Boot when on the witness stand? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And before yoiu left the witness stamd ait that time did yoni 
 testify as follows: "Are you definite in your recollection as to 
 whether that talk between you and Payn was in Albany or 
 New York? A, I have seen him WtE in New Y''ork and at Al- 
 bany; I am sure he mientioined that fact to me in Albany. Q. 
 About how long do yoiu say it was before you saw the' amend- 
 ment to the bill ? A. I am not positive that the first conversa- 
 tion was at Albany, when I come to think of it; I think the first 
 donversation was at the Grand Union Hotel, when he spoke 
 about that siaJary MIL Q. It might have been at the Grand 
 Union Hotel? A. It might Wave been, but that conversation 
 took place before the amendment appeared in the newspapers." 
 Did yoiu soi testify at that time before yom left the witness stand 
 
4m 
 
 m modiflcatioo of previous answers to Mr. Root? A. Yes, sir; 
 
 1 did. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any reason wiiy three-quarters of an liour 
 should hjave been spent in trying to put you in a false position 
 upon cross-eixajmination; upon thiat testimony by ^Ir. Boot to- 
 night? A. I know of no reasoia 
 
 Q. When you were under examamation did you testify !is fol- 
 lows: "Q. When, was tbaib? A. I oan't tell that; I can't tell 
 the date at all; that was perhaps a month or siix weeks ago." 
 Did you so testify? A. I did. 
 
 Q. " Q. Had you ha.d that conTersation before you first went to 
 Albany with tie committee on the 2 per cent, tax bill? A. No. 
 Q. Had you had it before your second visit to Albany on the 
 
 2 per. cent, tax bill? A< No." Did you then originally fix the 
 conversation as occurring at Albany? A. I intended toi fix it in 
 the place then where it occurred, but discovered before I left the 
 stand that it occurred in New York instead of Albany. 
 
 . Q. And you made that correction! voluntajily? A. Yeis^ 
 sir. 
 
 Mr. Eaines asked to be allowed to reserve the right to call 
 one other witness beside Mr. Payn on Thursday evening. 
 
 Mr. Eoot. — I hardly think it is fair to reserve a lot of testimony 
 to put in after I am gone. 
 
 Mr. Eiaines. — I ana willing to state the nature of the evidence 
 to Mr. Boot privately, but it might be doing an injusti'ce to state 
 it publicly. 
 
 Senator Eobertson, with permission of the committee, made 
 the following statement : 
 
 " I wish to correct something I found on a record of the stenog- 
 rapher, in reference to a question that was put to me, regarding 
 the conversation where Senator Aheam's name was mentioned. 
 My intention was to say that my conversation with Aheaim was 
 before the coimnittee, that is, conveying the thought that it was 
 at a session of the committee. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — The committee have decided, as a matter 
 of courtesy, to sit here to-morrow night for the purpoise of putting 
 on' the record whatever Mr. Payn has to siay. We feel imder no obli- 
 gations to sit lierie, but as a matter of courtesy, we will do so anid 
 give him an opportunity to testify. We would like to haye both 
 counsel submit to the committee typewritten copies of their 
 views upon the situation here. 
 
 Mr. Root asked permiission to submit his viewai orally at this 
 time, which was granted. 
 F. 54 
 
426 
 
 Mr. Eoot spoke as follows: 
 
 "If your honors please, it is a very great relief to me to: say 
 what I have to say now, and turn froim tkisi subject toi some other 
 subject when I leave the city. 
 
 The origin of the investigation, of course, we all understand, 
 was the article published in The Press of April ISth, which, in 
 substance, stated a series of facts relating to the raising of a 
 fund among the officers of the fire department of the city of New 
 York, for the piurpose of piiocuring the passage of the amendmeat 
 to a bill then before, the Legislature which would increase the 
 salaxies of the officers of the department. Facts which were 
 stated, the article declares, point on unerringly toward a corrujpt 
 negotiation, if not by, at least on 'behalf of, certain senators 
 for the promotion of that bill. 
 
 When yooir committee wais constituted, and cam.e to the city 
 of New ifork, the newspaper which had published the article, 
 retained counsel who came before yo^u and offered to produce 
 before you such evidence as the publishers of the paper had 
 in their possession, and could secure in substantiatibn of the 
 facts charged in the article. That they have done to the best of 
 their ability. The facts, as they have been produced, are now 
 before you, and it is for you, in the performance of your duty, 
 and the protection of the honor and dignity of the Senate of this 
 State, and the purity of the administration of the State to declare 
 how far the inferences which are contained in this article, infen- 
 enees to which the article declares the facts point, are justified. 
 
 The first amd central fact which stands here without con- 
 tradiction, is the fact that early in the session a bill was intro- 
 duced in the Assembly by Mr. Pavey, which speedily and in 
 ordinary course passed the Assembly by a large majority and 
 without apparent opposition. That a similar and identical bill was 
 introduced in the Senate by Senator Eobertsom and referred to 
 the committee on cities, of which he was a member, where it lay 
 without action until the Assembly bill had come to the Senate 
 and been referred to the same committee. Matters stood in that 
 form xintil the 26th of February of the present session, when 
 the bill introducied by Senatoir EotoeTtsoni was brought up in the 
 cities committee and an amendttnent was moved to the bill by 
 him, the father of the bill, which added to it provisions increas- 
 ing not only the pay of firemen, but tihe pay of officers of the 
 fire department to an extent ofi something over $50,000. Upon 
 the next day, the 27th of Februiary, the bill with this amendment 
 upon it was reportled to the Senate and. great opposition was 
 made on the part of firemen and their repiresentatives to halving 
 the firemen's bill, which relatedi only to fireimem, loaded down 
 
427 
 
 with an amendknient relatinig to tbe officers? pay, and upon miotion 
 of Senator Mullin the bill was recommitted to tlie citite'S com- 
 mittee, where it has since slept. In the meantime, the bill in- 
 troduced by Mr.* Pavey was reported out of the cities committee 
 of the Senate and was passed by the Senate and became a law. 
 Now the central and salilent fact of thiat history developed by 
 proof, but not appearing upon the formal recoirds of the Legisla- 
 tui-e, is the fact which is charged in this anticle, that that amend- 
 ment thus put upon' the bill in the Senate committee on cities, 
 was an amendment wMch had its origin', so far as anything 
 ajppears in the testimony, and was under the control iand di- 
 rection of '(me of the most notorious lobbyists known to the 
 recent history of this State. He has been present at the various 
 ■meetings of the committee from the beginning, occupying a 
 prominent position in the committee-room, in evidence present 
 at .all timies, until to-night, and to-night, the night upon wMch 
 the* colmmlilttee had publicly anno'unoed it would close its hear- 
 ing, he has withdrawn himself from the session of the committee, 
 departed from the city of Albany, and left counsel toi announce 
 to the committee that he will be ready to give his testimony at 
 a future time, when he will not, in ordinary course, be subjected 
 to the pleasure of cross-examination. I have saidi, one of the 
 most notorious lobbyists in the recent history of this State; I 
 appeal for the justification of that statement to the convictioin 
 contained ini the finding and report of the committee of the 
 Senate of the State of New York, appoilnted under circumstances 
 similar to these under which you have been appointed to investi- 
 gate in relation to some miembers of the Legislatuipe of this State, 
 in the yeai- 1868. Let me recall it to your minds. " The select 
 committee appointed pursuant to resolution passed April 10, 
 1868, to inquire and ascer{ain whether any pairty or parties 
 interested in supixirting or proywsing any measures relating to 
 railroad companies have, eithei' in person or by agent, directly 
 or indirectly paid, or offered to pay, any member or members of 
 the Senate, during that session any money or other valuable 
 thing to influence his or their vote or action, in ' Senate or com- 
 mittee,' and the further resolution passed May 1, 1868, by which 
 said committee was aiuthorized to sit during the recess and to 
 report to the next regular session of the Senate; Jtespectively 
 
 report: 
 
 "That your committee entered immediately upon the duties 
 assigned to them, and have been engaged in the investigation 
 on which they entered art! various times duriiing the session of 
 1868, the recess of the Legislature in' the present session. 
 
428 
 
 " Your committee's attention bas been called principally to tiie 
 freut contpist of last session hf tween the friends and opponents 
 of what was commonly known as the Erie hill. They had called 
 various w^itnessos, and toward the rlose of the session, a Senator 
 who had received information that led him to believe that a 
 lobbyist had attempted to set money from, the friends of the 
 Erie bill, on the pretense that he could thereby secure his vote." 
 
 Mr. Eaines. — I think it my duty to say to you, IVIr. Boot, and 
 the committee, that it already having been intimated to you 
 that documentary emdenee is to be committed by Mr. Payn 
 which directly affects the matter now spoken about, which docu- 
 mentary evidence is no less a matter than the signatures of 
 every member of the convicting committee to a complete and 
 wholesale retraction^ of every censure contained in that report 
 upon Mr. Payn, the genuineness of which document will not 
 rest upon signatures, but upon affidavits made by three members 
 of that comnnittee to a retraction which they themselves signed. 
 It seems 'to me that counsel, in justice to himself, as well as to 
 this investigation, should withhold that portion of his com- 
 ments he is engaged In making, which relates to this matter of 
 25 years until the documents are placed before the committee. 
 WTien I did not object, as I had the right to do, to M|r. Root's 
 anticipatinig the conclusion of the evidence, I did not suppose, 
 with the intimations and knowledge of the documentaij evi- 
 dence which is to come affecting the matter, upon which he is 
 now commenting, Mr. Root would take advantage of this con- 
 dition of the proof, this lack of evidence, and comment upon and 
 read from^ the report of the committee. I suggest that after 
 that part of the case is made by Mr. Payn, counsel submit what 
 views he has in writing, if he can not personally be present. 
 But ulntU the hearing of Mr. Payn, and the production of that 
 evidence, of iiie nature of which Mr. Root is advised, it would 
 seem to me to be simple justice, on the part of the learned 
 oouhsell, who has so high a reputation as a fair man, tO' with- 
 hold comments upon that matter. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Mr. Root having proceeded to express 
 his views without objection from' anybody, we can not restrict 
 him. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — Tin view of the fact that a sworn statement of the 
 three signers of that report is to be produced, retracting every 
 imiplicatiom against Mr. Payn in that report, it seems to me but 
 just that Mr. Root should withhold his comments. 
 
 Mr. Root. — Have you seen it? 
 
 Mr. Raines.— I have the evidence of different persons. It is 
 quite the rule to take the assurances of counsel. 
 
429 
 
 Mr. Root. — I think it is the greateat nonsense on this earth, 
 this talk of retraction; this signing a solemn report by Senators 
 of this State, a report adopted by the Senate and resting upon 
 sworn testimony. I have read the testimony, and it sustains the 
 report, and I do not care if 10 retractions are made, under what 
 influence I know not, or whether any retraction or not, it would 
 not change the damning effect of this record upon which this 
 man stands convicted of corruption and pilloried as he has been 
 since Matthew Hale signed that report, in the eyes and opinion 
 of the people of the State of New York. Twenty-five years after 
 that record of shame and guilt was spread upon the public 
 records and known to all men, this man can not sneak out of a 
 committee-roomi and escape the effect of it before the commit- 
 tee by leaving counsel to say he is informed that at some future 
 time he is to come here with retractions of the record. 
 
 Mr. Root. — I think, if the committee will bear with me, I will 
 proceed with what I have to say. I shall stand upon this record, 
 aind take from' the report, and say just what I think the record 
 su'staina,, no matter what Mr. Payn may propose to say in the 
 future, or what record he may; purpose to produce. I say that 
 this report, signed by these gentlemen, in the performance of 
 their duty as Senators, is sustained by sworn' testimony taken 
 before them, and by admissions of Mr. Payn under oath. The 
 report says : " The case of Louis F. Payn furnishes a remarkable 
 example of cnedulity on the part of the parties expending 
 money." Mr. Payn was a harbor-master in New York, and as 
 such receiving, as he testified, some |350 per month. He had 
 never been in the employ of a railroad company; had no pro- 
 fession, nor any extensive general acquaintance or influence. 
 Still he was paid a sum of $10,000, as he pretends, for a 
 few days' services in Albany in advocating the Erie bill. Mr. 
 Thomlpson paid him $5,000, in New York, and Mr. G-ould, 
 though he did not take much stock in him, as he says, not hav- 
 ing heard of Thompson's payment, gave him $5,000, here 
 to smooth him over. It will not be credited that these amounts 
 were paid him simply for services. They were obtained by him, 
 as no one can doubt from reading the evidence, on the pretense 
 that with such a sum^ be could secure a Senator's vote. The 
 testimony of Vanvalkenbergh, with that of Mr. Thompson and 
 Senator Palmer, is conclusive upon this point, and it was only on 
 ascertaining that the' Senator referred to was opposed to the bill 
 and that his character for integrity and honor was so high as to 
 render any effort at producing a change in his views, or action, 
 by pecuniary inducement, not only useless, but absurd, that the 
 attempt was made to get back the money from' Payn, which gave 
 
430 
 
 rise to tlie angry controversy sworn to by VanTalkenbergh, 
 which, led to bringing the matter to the knowledge of the Sena- 
 tor, whose surprise and indignation at the discovery of so base 
 an attemipt to make merchandise of his good name icaused him 
 to give your committee the information which enabled them to 
 discover these facts." That was sustained by the testimony on 
 that investigation, before that committee, and no findings could 
 be more honestly made than was made by that committee. 
 The testimony remains of record, taken under oath, and standing 
 with the report, or without the report, is an everlasting con- 
 demnatilon of Louis F- Payn as being a corrupt lobbyist iu tie 
 legislative affairs of this State. From that time to thiei he has 
 been notorious, a stench in the nostrils of all good and honest 
 mea in the State of New York, and I say it is a central fact, 
 developed by the testimony, that this amendment to the firemen's 
 bill, which proposed to increase the salaries of officers, was 
 fathered by him, produced by him, controlled by him, under his 
 guidance and direction. 
 
 The second proposition which underlies the article that has 
 li0d to your investigation, is that, for the promotion of the bill 
 which was thus in the hands of this notorious lobbyist, a fund 
 had been 'raised among the officers of the fire department to 
 enable him and induce him to procure , the passage of the 
 amendment. As to that we have produced a great array of evi- 
 dence of the highest character, which it is ever possible to pro- 
 duce iln oases of this kind. The best evidence which a case will 
 admit of is the beet evidence that should be required to convince 
 a candid mind of the truth of a statement. Contributions and 
 corrupt propoisitions, the giving and taking of bribes, are not 
 ordinarily conducted on housetops, in the open streets, in the 
 presence of great numbers of person®. They are secret and 
 incapable of proof, except by drcumstantiaJ evidence, casual 
 admissions made by parties, and the turning of State's evidence 
 by one of the parties, something which very rarely occurs, and 
 is almost impossible to compel. What is the testimony we have 
 produced to show there was being raised' in the city of New York 
 a fund to procure the passage of this officers' aniendmient? In 
 the first place, there is the testimony of Clifford, who' was presi- 
 dent of the Firemen's Association, who swore that on the even- 
 ing of the 6th day of March, at Daley's Theater, as he was 
 about* to enter the theater, he saw waiting for him Assistant 
 Foremian Quinn, who had been a member of the Firemen's Asso- 
 ciation, but had recently been promoted. He says the following 
 conversation ensued: "T have been appointed' a committee of 
 one from the Officers' Association of Firemen for the pnrpose of 
 
431 
 
 commg to you, as president of the Firemen's Mutual Benevolent 
 Association (wMch. Clifford wasi), to see if sometMng could not 
 be done toward having the salary bill attended to at Albany." 
 I inquired what information he possessed on the subject, and he 
 said he had full information that that bill of oure would never be 
 reported without the use of money; that the oiflcers of the fire 
 department had come to the conclusion, to pay |15,000, as that 
 was the sum asked for from them, and we were expected to pay 
 130,000, making |45,000 for the passage of the Mil. I asked him 
 how he received his information, and from what source it came, 
 and he said it came directly from a gentleman by the name of 
 Louis F. Payn, and he suggested that I meet the president of 
 the Offlcers' Association, to see if we could not effect a consoli- 
 dation of interests." That is not rumor, that is not gossip; that 
 is fact; an overt act in the course of a transaction; an officer of 
 the Are department engaged in making an effort to secure the 
 contributions of the men of the fire department toward an exist- 
 ing fund for the passage of this bill, not a man telling something 
 that has haippened, but a man engaged in the act of doing some- 
 thing. It is proof of the very process of the raising of a corrupt 
 fund. The next testimony is the testimony of Bothenhausler, 
 who was the financial secretary of the benevolent association. 
 He testified that early in March he had a conversation with 
 James Smith, one of tbue Officers' Assoiciation, on the subject of 
 legislation, relating to the department. " Smith," he sa^ys, " is 
 one of the memhers of the legislative committee," he was led to 
 believe. He says: "Between 5:30 and i6 o'clock I wient to the 
 quarters of Hook and Ladder, No. 2, and asked for Smith. That 
 was on the 9th day of March. * He was not in ; I waited for him. 
 When he came in I asked him if he could give, me any informa- 
 tion asi to what kept the salary bill in the cities committee in 
 the Senate, and asked if he could tell what arrangements could 
 be made, and he said it could not be made without money. He 
 said, "The bill won't be reported oiit before the last days of the 
 session. I have been told so by friends, who have tateu' up the 
 amendment." He^ siaid the friends were PajTi, Eobertson, 
 Raines and Coggeshall. I asked, "With, or without money," and 
 he said I ought not to ask. He says, " Such men as that would 
 send it along." He said men were not up there for their health. 
 He said the wise thing was to have both bills passed; he said the 
 only way it could be done was to have the requiremient. The 
 question was asked, did he say who the go-betweens were, and 
 the answer was, he mentioned Payn's name, and said Payn was 
 at Albany all that winter." That testimony is undenied, stands 
 
432 
 
 uncontradicted. It joins on to the testimony of Clifford. I icniay 
 say, Smith,, on tlie witness stand, didn't deny it. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — I beg your pardon; ke did deny it. 
 
 Mr. Boot. — I reaid it with, care, and there is no denial. We 
 gave the testimony of three witnesses; to other conversations, 
 and in the same engine-house with Smith, and all testified that 
 Smith told them th.at the bill was stuck' in committee, and that 
 the officers had put up, but that the bill would not: come out 
 unless the men also materialize. It was also put in another 
 form, in these words: "Until we come up with gold." "Did 
 Sm;ith tell you who was handling the money?" "He said a man 
 by the name of Lou Payn was handling the money." That testi- 
 mony was corroborated by the statements of Sheridan, Smith 
 and Ward. They testified to the same conversation. We have 
 shown you as to these three. Smith denies the conversation 
 with him, and imputing to them malice and bad feeling toward 
 him, as a mx)tive. 
 
 The third separate line of evidence was in the testimony of 
 Samuel Gr. French, a reputable merchant of New York, a gentle- 
 man whomi I have long known and' respected, one of the leading 
 officers of the Hepublican Club of the city of New York. No 
 man stands higher in the community than he. He testified to a 
 conversation which he had with O'Eeilley, who was secretary 
 of the Officers' Association, on the occasion of O'Eeilley explain- 
 ing why he could not pay a coal bill to French. " He says," Mr. 
 O'Eeilley said, "he had promised to pay him some money he 
 ovred himv but could not, because he had to put up money for 
 this bill, which he had to pay. Did he show he had the money 
 in his i)osisession? He showed bim am envelope, saying, 'Here 
 it is.' He said he had to put it up, and that was the reason 
 that he could not pay the bill. He said the money went to three 
 men." French thought it was his duty to state the facts to Mr. 
 Sheffield, and that led to their being known to Mr. Quigg, and 
 to the Press, and afterward to putting Mr. French on the witness 
 stand. 
 
 The fourth separate line of testimony is the testimony as to 
 statements made by Officer Eeed, testified to by Zorn', Kelley nud 
 Thompson. Fireman Zorn testified: "Did you have a conversa- 
 tion with Eeed, about the pajinieut of mioney to secure an increase 
 oif the officers' salaries? On the 3d of March he said he put up 
 $30, and it would he the fair thing for us to put up our money. 
 On the 2d of March, this year, he said, ' I am going to put up f30 
 for the increase of the officers' salariies, and it would be a fair 
 thing if the men would put up their share.' Did he say any- 
 thing about it being difficult for him toi put up then? He said 
 
I 4:33 
 
 it -was a short month, and his daughter was going to get mar- 
 ried, and it was hard on him. Did he say anything whether 
 Foreman Burke put up? A. He said |45 he put up, that is 
 about all I know about that. And Zorn testified he believed 
 it. Thompson and Kelley both testified to the same statement 
 by Eeed. 
 
 The fifth lime of testimlony is the testimony of Fireman Kyan, 
 Avho swore to a conversation which he heard between Clark and 
 Landers, ini which Clark told Landers the bill was all right, bm 
 they would have to put up, and Landers said he was willing to 
 put up, but he wanted to knoiw about the money if the bill didn't 
 pass, and Clark said he would get it back. 
 
 The sixth line of testimony relates tO' Officer Cartwright As 
 to him, Fireman Fitzgerald testified that he went to Oartwright's 
 house, being sent there by the officer in command in the engine- 
 house, and that Cartwright told him in his houste that the officers 
 had arraiiged"that the foremen put up $90, and the assistant fore- 
 men |60, and that he refused in: the m.eeting of the officers to 
 put up Ms money, but said if the bill passed he would be as 
 good as the rest of them. You will perceive that this $90 and 
 |60 correspond to the |45 and the $30 in two payments, and cor- 
 respond to the arrangement made with Payn which has come out 
 from the account of the transaction given by Leary to Quigg, 
 That arrangement with Payn was that payments to him were to 
 be divided into two parts; one-half to be given at the time, and 
 the second half contingent upon the passage of the bill. These 
 payments made by the officers were to be in two parts, $45 by the 
 foremen and $30 by the assistant foremen, and then the second 
 payment of $45 and $30, making up the $90 and the $60. 
 
 The seventh independent lime of testimony is much more per- 
 suasive and unanswerable than that of any witness oui the stand. 
 It relates to Horan's book. You remember how I put on the 
 stand two firemen, Conboy and Campbell, who testified the find- 
 ing of a book of Foreman Horan, who was an officer of their 
 enginge-house, and testifying to seeing upon one page of that 
 book' a page filled with writing, nearly all the lines written 
 upon, the lines filled, occupied by writing, letters and figures, 
 which it was impossible for me to^ get them to testify to. Their 
 m_emories had suddenly departed from them, and you must have 
 all been convinced that they were most unwilling witnesses. 
 And I also proved by other witnesses statements, which they 
 made immediately aifter the finding of that book, as to what it 
 contained. These statements, together with the facts whioh I 
 have wiTing out of their imwilling mouths, that this leaf of the 
 book which they say contained an enimieration of the officers: of 
 R S5 
 
434 
 
 the sixth, battalion, and wMcli they b'elieved were figures 
 for eaicihi foreman and |30 for each, assistant foremian, and thje 
 letters "O. K." opposite each one, except one officer, Ed^ward 
 Meehan, and after him was written the letters " N. G." It also 
 appeared that immediately upon' the finding of the book, one of 
 them', Campbell, testifies to charging upon Horan that this was a 
 collection book. It also appeared that' after finding that book, 
 the men in the engine-house joked Horan about the book, and 
 called him " O. K." he pulled out the book and says, " Here is' the 
 found the book; they looked at a page in it filled with writing 
 and the impression, right or wrong, produced upon their minds 
 was such that they told their friends that it contained this record 
 of the officers of the battalion, and the letters "O. K." and 
 " N. G-." The impression produced upon their minds was that 
 it was a collection' book, and they charged upon Horan that it 
 was a collection book. The impression upon Horan's mind was 
 so strong that upon the next day, as he testifiesi, when they 
 called him " O. K." he pulled out the book and says, " Here is the 
 book; you can look at it." The chairman of the commnittee com- 
 mitted somewhat in questioning Horan, as to why he should 
 Tolunteer to show them his private memorandum book, because 
 of what had been' said. Of that, however, very little, because 
 the evidence, as described, is but hearsay, and the sudden failure 
 of memory would have prevented it from becoming testimony, 
 except for the extraordinary fact that that book was produced 
 in the committee-room by Horan or by Mr. Eaines, put before 
 Conboy, the man who found it, and he identified tiie book and he 
 swore that the page was not in it; that the book was mutilated; 
 that pages had been torn out, and Horan was put upon the 
 stand and swore he tore the^ out. Here was a book he found 
 at a time when the whole fire department was teeming with 
 rumors that collections were being made, and the man looked 
 on the page of that book and charged upon Horan that it was a 
 collection book for this corruption fund. He waei im possession 
 of that book, he tears out a page, and then attempts to impose 
 upon this committee a false record. Can any inference be drawn 
 but that the page which he destroyed was the page which proved 
 thei charge the men made? EegardSkg it by rule of evidence, 
 in all the courts of Christendom, is not that a necessary conclu- 
 sion? Did any man ever escape such a conclusion by tearing out 
 the page of a book after it was charged upon him that that page 
 contained the evidence of his crime? There can be no esrajpe, 
 except by a satiefaxstory explanation, and what was the explana- 
 tion? Its grotesque weakness needs no comment. Horan, step 
 by step, was forced to the statement to the chairman of the com 
 
435 
 
 mittee, I th,mk it was, that he tore out the page because he was 
 in the habit of tearing out pages of the book whenever they were 
 fiill. He made memorandums in t^ie books only for the purpose 
 of tearing them out and throwing them away. If that is a 
 satisfactory explanation of the mutilation of a record which it is 
 charged contained the evidence of the crime against a man who 
 made the mutilation, it were better to go back to that idyllic 
 condition of innocence and tnistfuiLaess in which. Bums so' 
 happily finds himself. Horan testified he had been tearing 
 leaves out of this book for nine months, in tremendous quanti- 
 ties. He was always tearing leaves out. The chairman of the com- 
 mittee looked at the book, and it was difficult to discover that 
 more than one leaf had been torn out, not enough leaves had 
 been torn oat to account for one-tenth of the teai-ing he said 
 he had done, and you observe that the tearing out of leaves 
 loosened a number of other leaves. This assistant foreman of 
 this engine company would have you believe that he made 
 memorandums for the purpose of tearing them out and throw- 
 ing them away, when it destroyed the book. That he made 
 memoranda for the sole purpose of tearing them out and throw- 
 ing them away and destroying the book which he bought for that 
 purpose. 
 
 Another entirely distinct line of testimony is' the written 
 statement of Battalion CMef Shaw. You remember the position 
 taken, by Bums, in his testimony at the outset of this investiga- 
 tion. It is, in substance, that this amendment business did 
 itself. That he, the president of the officers:' association, had 
 nothing to do with it; none of the officers had anything to do 
 with it; it was a spontaneous uprising of benevolence in the 
 heart of Payn; no one aided it, no one promoted it, no one took 
 any interest in it; it was spontaneous and ftutomatic. But here 
 comes; a letter from Battalion Chief Shaw to another lobbyist 
 named Leary, written on the 5th of March, 1895, in the very 
 thick of these transactions, in which he states essentially what 
 the situation was. He says to Leary: "Dear Sir. — We were 
 unable to influence the officers to change their program last 
 night, and it will go as I told you. Sorry that we did not meet 
 sooner, and might have had different results. Yours, Wm. 
 Shaw." That follows the testimony that Shaw, with Oroker and 
 McOabe, had met Leary. That Shaw and Croker had a; conver- 
 sation with Leary, in which Payn, having charge of this bill, was 
 mentioned. In which Leary, to put the manner in the same 
 felicitous form as stated by the chairman of the committee and 
 assented to by Shaw, in which Leary tried to get the job that 
 Payn had. Following tha* meeting, Shaw writes to Leary; 
 
436 
 
 "We were imable to influence the officers to change their pro- 
 gram, last night, and it will go as I told you. Sorry that we did 
 not meet sooner, and might have had different results." That 
 is, the Leary program might have taken the place of the Payn 
 program. I put it to your honors whether Shaw's explanation 
 is a satisfactory and true one. He said that he wrote the letter; 
 that ithe letter was false; that he wrote it for the purpose of 
 letting Leary down easy; that he did not want to hurt his 
 feelings. As to why he wanted to let Leary down easy, 
 after Leary made a corrupt proposition to him, he testified 
 it didn't occur to him that Leary's demand for $10,000 to pass 
 this amendment was corrupt. Do you believe that? Does any 
 same man believe Shaw was telling the truth when he testified 
 to you tiiat he saw nothing which was not honest and honorable 
 in that proposition of Leary's? Croker was put upon the stand, 
 and he gave testimony regarding this transaction. I have been 
 unable to get from the stetiographer the minutes of the testi- 
 mony, but I remember enough to state its features. Shaw testi- 
 fied he wrote this letter to let Leary down easy, because Leary 
 was coming to the station-house, asking for an answer) to his 
 proposition; he wrote this letter for that purpose. That he never 
 saw Leary after the interview in which the proposition was made, 
 which was on Friday, the Isit day of March, and that he never 
 saw Leary again. Will you take the full force of that in connec- 
 tion with Oroker's testimony, for Croker testified that at the 
 first interview between Leary, Shaw and Croker, they agreed 
 upon a subsequent meeting at the same place, at an hour speci- 
 fied on the 5th day ofMarch, and that Leary, Shaw and Croker 
 did meet at the same place oh' the 5th of March, when an. answer 
 was given to Leary orally by Shaw and Croker. I say, upon 
 that testimony of Croker, Shaw stands convicted of having 
 falsely testified before you, and with that falsehood stamped 
 upon his explanation, and with the falsehood by which Shaw 
 endeavored to convince you he believed Leary's proposition to 
 be honorable and fair, you must wholly reject the explanation 
 as incredible in itself; that the letter you have before you in his 
 handwriting, written at the time and containing damning evi- 
 dence of the existence of tJbis corrupt conspiracy, was false. 
 There is the written words of Shaw, and unless you reject Hie 
 levidemoe of that writing, made at the time, and reject it upon 
 the lame and contradictory explanation of the man Shaw, you 
 are bound to say, as Shaw wrote, that there was on the 5th of 
 March a definite program among the officers) of the fire depart- 
 ment for the passage of this amendment, which Shaw was 
 unable to get them to change in order to put the matter in 
 
43T 
 
 Leai'y's bands, and thiat conclusion is absolute destruction to 
 the present fabric of denial spread before you by these men 
 itnplioalted by this evidence. 
 
 Another piece of testimony is the statement of Quigg, that, 
 when h.e went to Payn, after having brought to bear upon Payn 
 influence to get him to let go, that when he went to Payn and 
 told him he understood he was going to let go, and Payn said he 
 would, Payn said, with a pathos that must have brought tears to 
 the Congressman's eyes, ''You don't know how expensive this 
 will be to me." That language from Payn means a great deal. It 
 does not mean patriotism, or glory, or affection; but it means 
 just what it says, that his letting go of this amendment, and 
 having the firemen's bill reported without it, would be very 
 expensive to him. If you need any proof to corroborate all these 
 facts you will find it in- Chief Bonner's resignation. What does 
 it mean? Becaiuse of the inauguration of this proceeding on the 
 part of the offlcers of the fire department, their chief, their com- 
 manding officer, the man who presumptively knows moTe abouf 
 the department and has its honor more eamestiy at heart than 
 any others, resigns from' the officers' association, and separates 
 himself entirely from its members, and from the matters: of cor- 
 ruption being worked out by Bums and the rest about him, to 
 save his honor, if, by his protest, he could not save the others. 
 Then the curtain rings down upon this scene by the death of 
 poor McCabe, from which I will draw no inference. MoCabe^s, 
 whose name I did not produce in evidence before you, and upon 
 whose unhappy fate I would not comment, whose name I would 
 not drag tlirough the mire of this investigation tO' save a hun- 
 dred newspapers, and of whom I will say, if your honors! will 
 permit me, that I have known him for many years, that I 
 respected and admired him, and I believe no more true and loyal 
 and honorable man ever trod the streets' of New York. As 
 honest, as fai+Mul and as loyal a man as ever breathed. 
 
 It is not a joking matter, gentlemen, the presentation of these 
 facts, with these significant and serious surroundings. It is 
 not a matter of idle humor and gossip to be brushed aside. It 
 is a serious matter, affecting the honor and dignity of the State 
 of New York, and what is the explanation of all this testimony? 
 Mr. Quinn denies tliat he had the conversation with Clifford, and 
 if you are to believe Quinn's denial, you are tO' believe that Clif- 
 ford, who had so won the respect of 912 firemen as to be elected 
 president of the association to which he belonged, and thereby 
 receive from them the highesit honor within their gift, that 
 Clifford should immediately after the conversation reduce it to 
 writing, and state it to Quigg; whose written statement was pro- 
 
438 
 
 duiced- in, court, that lie, Toluntarily and intentionally and 
 deliberately, went fpom tliat conTersation to Ms desk with tile 
 intention of preparing a scliemie of perjury; tliat he put himself 
 im the position to commit perjury, and did comtniit it, with uo 
 motive of benefit to himself whatever. Smith says nothing about 
 Eothenhausler's conversation, and that is the conversation in 
 which mention is made of the Senators namea He does not 
 deny the conversation with thnee. other firemen. The three 
 whose testimony was given, saying he put up $30, and you must 
 talce his denial, against the unimpeaehed testimony of all three. 
 O'Reilley had died after the conversation with French, but 
 French's testimony can not be impeached. Heed, as to whom 
 three firemen testified, appeared and said it was a joke. He 
 deniesl the greater part of the conversation which they relate. 
 He gives small fragments of it as having taken pla^, and he 
 says it was a joke. He says to men at a time the firemen believed, 
 the officers are engaged in this corrupt transaction; he deliber- 
 ately makes a statement to them, which he knows they believed, 
 and now explains that that statement was a joke. Clark denies 
 the statement which Kyan siwears he made. Oartwright denies 
 he ever had a conversation with Fitzgerald, which he has related, 
 and he denies the conversation with Whelan, which Whe;lan 
 related, and Horan has made his explanation. The great explana- 
 tion, the one put forward as an example, the tuning-fork, was 
 Bums! You remember what anxiety to get Bums on the stand; 
 thrust in like a volcanic rock. It was of importance that Burns 
 should set the pace. He told his story, and his story was that 
 nothing had been done to secure the passage of this amiendment. 
 That he did' not know how it came about That he never had 
 any conversation with any officer about it; that he never asked 
 any officer about it, and none ever asked him ; that he never heard 
 any rumor or suggestion that there was any fund, or the rais- 
 ing of any fund to promote this legislation until he read this 
 article in the Press on the eighteenth of April ; he did not know 
 what a lobbyist was; he was seven times in Albany during the 
 session of 1895 with the legislative committee of the officers 
 association of the fire department, about the 2 per cent, tax bill, 
 before committees of the Senate and Assembly, and never 
 inquired what was the concdition or prospect of tiie salary bill. 
 He had no conversation with any one about it, except this one 
 talk which he says he had with Payn in which Payn said! he 
 would look into it. Now, if you believe that, we better haA'e a 
 different Senate, for I am- sure you are not competent to cope 
 with the wickedness of thisi world. He is too innocent to come 
 from the same town with Payn; too innocent to run with any 
 
439 
 
 machine of the fire deipartinlent or otherwise in the city of New 
 York. If you do not believe thait, if you do not helieve that this 
 man is the ignorant, innocent school-boy that he pretends to be, 
 if you do not believe that all these firemen have committed pur- 
 jury on the witness stand, if you do not believe that Horan was 
 in the habit of destroying his memorandum book, as a matter of 
 amusement, then the statement about the raising of tte fund was 
 true, for falsehoods are not concocted and presented for the pur- 
 pose of concealing innocence, but for the purpose of concealing 
 guilt. They deny, of course they deny. When in your experience 
 have you known or read of an investigation of this kind in 
 which every man charged with corrupt transactions did not 
 walk up amd deny it, and yet thene is not one Senator who hears 
 my voice who does not know that there has not been a time for 
 many years in which there has not been men in this Legislature 
 who took money to pass bills. There is not one Senator, who 
 hears my voifee who has not had, year after year, come to him 
 confidential information about the use of money for the passage 
 of bills in this Legislature. The information could not be used 
 for proof, because it was confidential, and would be denied upon 
 the stand, but from Montauk to Lake Erie the people of this 
 State believe, what is a fact, that there is always in the Legisla- 
 ture of this State a certain number or uncertain number of men 
 who take money for the passage of bills. You can't prove it only 
 when comes some extraordinary occasion like the record of that 
 in 1869, when Senator Palmer discovered that Payn had 
 been agreeing to barter and sell his vote and got evi- 
 dence of it before the committee. Only when some extra- 
 offdinary occasion ajrises it ils possible to get this information 
 before a committee and take aiction' upon it. Don't we all know 
 there hias not been a period in our lifetime when: there has not 
 been lobbyiists in AJbany, (fattening upon the use of money to 
 promote legislation. I say, gentlemen, to you wh^o atre charged 
 with the prime fumctiOn of investigating matters of this kind, it 
 wont do to stand in front of denials of men charged in tramsac- 
 tions of this kind. You must take hold of the facts proved aibout 
 them, and aipply yoiuir knowledge oif human nature to thtoise facts, 
 and sajy whether the facts do not justify the inference drawn in 
 that Press aitide. TOis bill to increase the salaries of officers 
 in the hands ol this notoribns Itobbjliist, with all this raising of 
 corruption funds behind it in the city of ISTew York, went through 
 a. process in the Senate cities committee, and in the Senate, the 
 nature of which must be determined biy its surroiundings. It is 
 true that there is no rule agaSnst amending bills in committees ; 
 of course, that is what committees are for, to consider and amend. 
 
440 
 
 if they thiok thie bill ahoiuld be amended, but look at tMs transac- 
 tiom; the bill was intrusted tx)i Senatlor Robertson by Mr. Shefleld, 
 who was the attorney, the representative, of the firemen, and 
 Senator Robertson introdiiced ilt for him. When^ the Senate 
 cities 0oniiinittee met on the 26th of Februairy, Senator Bobertson 
 had received, and had had in his posisession for a week, an 
 amendment which added to the bill a pirovision ta inorease the 
 officers saJariies, and to add to the anniual expenses of the city of 
 New York over |50,000. He had received it from nO' other person 
 than Louis F. Payn, and he never had bteen requested to put it on 
 the bill by any other person, except Lonis F. Payni and Senat»r 
 Raines. He moveid that amendment on a day when Mir. Sheffield, 
 on whto'Se request he had introduced the original bill, was in the 
 city of Albany; he moved! it against the opposition of Mr. Panrey, 
 who had chairge ol the bill ini the Assembly; he moved in without 
 having consulted the authorities of the city of New York upon 
 which he was to impose over f50,00O additional annual taxartSion ; 
 he moved it without having consulted any officer on membier of 
 the fire department; he insisted on its being reporteid after the 
 indignant protest of Mr. Sheffield as to his treatment of the bill, 
 and for that amendment hastily and peremptorily put upon the 
 bill and reported to the Senate, aigainst the wishes oifi everybody 
 interested in the bill, without consulting with the people of 
 Hew York, or with the fire department, there was no other 
 sponser on earth but this same lobbyist, Louis F. Payn. I say, 
 while there is no rule against a committee amending a bill, that 
 the circumstances undew which' that bill was aanended; the source 
 from which, the am:endlment eame, the absence of all inquiry and 
 consultation which would naturally accompany such action 1^ 
 the father of the bill, his persistency in opposition to the men who 
 were interested in it, all the circnmstances and the manner of 
 tbe transaction justify Payn's statement to Quigg, when he said, 
 "I put the amendment on and I will take it off," and they bring 
 into close connection, as an inevitable inlference, the raising of a 
 corruption fund in the city of New York, and the placing of this 
 amendment upon the bill at the dictate of that lobbyist. I would 
 not do amy injustice to any Senator oir any man wihatevea*, but 
 when a Woman is found comsorting with panderers of viae the 
 reputation of her chastity nuust take the inevitable conseqiuenoes, 
 and if Senators of the great State of New York, receive their 
 orders from men like Paiyn', known to all men to be the ajgent and 
 instrument of corruption, and associate themselves with his will 
 and wish', tb!ey have no right to complain that infenenoes regard- 
 ing their ilonesty and loffioial Wonor aine drawn' by citizens, whose 
 interests they are bound to represenit. 
 
441 
 
 Tke committee riecomvemed at Assembly cbamber, Albany, N. 
 Y., May 9, 1895, pursuant to adjournment. 
 
 Present. — Senator O'Connor, Chairman, and Senators. Pound, 
 Mullin, Parker and Cantor. 
 
 Jasmies K. Smith, being recalled for cross-examination, testified 
 as follows: 
 
 Mr. Root. — Mr. Chairman, I understood this investigation was 
 closed. 
 
 Senator O'Oomnoir. — ^It is, with the exception that Mr. Payn is 
 to be examined and the documentary evidenee. That is your 
 understanding, Mv. EaineSj isn^t it, that this examination is closed 
 except Mr. Payn. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — ^Attention was called to an omission in the testi- 
 mony of Mr. Smith whoi was called before, and I thought it was 
 better to recall him and put in any omission that was made. It 
 will only take a minute to deny Eothenhausler's statement. 
 
 Mr. Boot. — In other words, oounsel intendls not to pay the 
 slightest attentibn to th;e conunittee but toi proceed in his own 
 way. 
 
 Senator O'COmnor. — I think that if this witness had not been 
 sworn before, but Mr. Eiaines says he has; no new witnesises; 
 ontsdde of Mr. Payn and the doicumentary evidence the investi- 
 gation was understiood to be cloised. 
 
 Q. Mr. Smith, at Hook and Ladder house, No. 2, or any where 
 else, did Fireman Clifford have an interview with you? A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. On the 9th of March, between half-past 5 and 6 oi'dock, 
 at Hook and Ladder house 2, did Rothenhausler come to see you? 
 A. Yes, sitr. 
 
 Q. Did he ask you to give him any infoirmation in reference 
 to what kept our salary bill, the firemen's salary bill, in the 
 Senate committee on cities? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you tell him to try and get our president to meet their 
 president of the officiers' association, John J. Bums, and he 
 would tell what arrangement could be made? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you tell him that it could not be made without money, 
 and Bums would tell him^ the amount it would cost? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you say " that bill won't be reported out until the last 
 day of this session? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Thiat you had been told so by friends whoi had taken up 
 your amiendment? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yon say to him in the conversation that those friends 
 were Payn, Eobertson, Eaines and Ooggeslhall? A. No, sir. 
 F. 56 
 
442 
 
 Q. Wliere thoise Senators names mentioined in that oonverea- 
 tion befween yooi and Eothemhausler at any time? A. No^ sir; 
 I never lieardi them mentioned. 
 
 Q. Did yon say th.at Piatt told yon to send your bill along 
 with, the others and botih' would become a law? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he then ask you whether it was with or without money ? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And did you say that he ought not to ask it? A. Yes; I 
 helped him to make a sibatement. 
 
 Q. Youi may state fully with regard to that point? A. He said 
 that their aasoioiation/, thene was a split in it, and part of the 
 members of that association were thinking of calling a special 
 meeting; he said that part of these members were them already 
 calling a special mieeting to see what the trouble was with tht' 
 bill and see if it was any money point that was keeping the bill 
 in the committee; he told me and I said, " Fred, you should not 
 talk like that." I said, " There has been trouble enough created 
 through this notoriety we have got in relation to money, and yom- 
 talking like that will only kill both the bills; we haverft to put up 
 one dollar and I don't fcaoiw of it being put up; all we know* is 
 what we see in the newspapers;" that is all the conversation 
 I had with himi. 
 
 Q. Did you! say to him that such men as Piatt would send the 
 bill along and then the way is to see a go^bet*we(en? A. No, sir; 
 I never mentioned Mr. Piatt's name or never saw him' or had anv 
 conversation about it. 
 
 Q. Did yon say anything about seeing go-betweens? A. No, 
 sir.' 
 
 Q. Did he say to you, "The meni are not up there for theu* 
 health?" A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you say, "The men are not up there for their health?" 
 A No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you say, "If you people are wise you will oome half 
 way with us and have iboth bills passed at the same time?" A. 
 I told Mm that instead of getting into discussions betweeni 
 organizations, if they would get together, they could get the 
 bills passed, but they were creating so much trouble there would 
 be nofthing done in the matter. 
 
 Q. Did you say, " The only way that can be done is by seeing 
 the people with the ' requirements? ' " A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you mentibn Mr. Payn's name in any way in the con- 
 versaition? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Had you heard of Mr. Payn in connection' with the bills' at 
 that time? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you tell him that Payn was up there all that winter at 
 
443 
 
 Albany? A. No, sir; I never heard of Mr. Payn until I heard 
 him mientioned in th.e testimony ; 1 never saw Mr. Payn. 
 
 Q. Had you any conversation, direct or indirect, with' either of 
 the SenatiOTO, Eaines, Coggieshall or Eobertson ? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Had any conversaition with any of these gentlemen been 
 reported to you at any time you had this conversation with 
 Eothenhausler? A. No^ sir. 
 
 Q. Have you staited now ail that occurred in' the conversation ? 
 A. Well, yes; pretty much; all the. substance of the conversation. 
 
 Oi'oss-examinatiOn by Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. How oame you here tohuight? A. I was subpoenaed. 
 
 Q. Have you the subpoena withl you? A. Yes', sir. 
 
 Q. Let me see it. 
 
 (AVitness hanjds subpoena; to counsel.) 
 
 Mr. Eo'ot.— I will ofier this^ to.be marked in evidence, and ask 
 the coimmittee to compare it with the statements of the chairman 
 as to the course of this investigation. If Mir. Eaines is toi run this 
 investigation! and do just as he pleases about it, why, I had 
 better have retired from it some time ago. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — I gave the serg'eant-at-arms one subpoena 
 last night, which he. said was for a witness in connection with 
 the documentary evidence, and but one subpoena. 
 
 Mr. Eaines.— I know nothing about the subpoenaing of the 
 witness. I know he is here. I assume that it has all been 
 regular, and, so' far a& my friend's suggestion is concerned', I 
 have had a great deal of trouble to keepi up my end of the run- 
 ning of the business with him. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — I gave Mr. Kemp one subpoena and he 
 told me it was with reference to the documentary evidence. 
 
 Mr. Boot. — All I know is that the committee said that all the 
 evidence was closed, except the examination of Mr. Payn arid the 
 documentary evidence. 
 
 Mr. Eaines. — Evidenitiy somethjin^has occurred in the way of 
 a dliange of mind or heart, and the witness is here. 
 
 The Chairman. — We will proceed with the examination of Mr. 
 Smith. 
 
 By Mr. Eoot: 
 
 Q. When were you subpoenaed? A. Half-past 11 this morning. 
 
 Q. Who subpoenaed you? A. I understood it was the ser- 
 geant — that gentleman over there. 
 
 Q, The sergeaut-att-arms with' the committee? A. That is the 
 gentleman over there. (Pointing to Mr. Kemp.) 
 
444 
 
 Q. When did you have the oonversatioin with Bothenhausler? 
 A. In tlie early part of March. 
 
 Q. What day? A. Well, I shonld judge about thfe 9th. 
 
 Q. IVom what do you judge that? A. Fromi his testimony. 
 
 Q. Do you believe his testimony? A. No, sir; I believe that 
 it was on account — wheiu I read his testimony in' the papers, and 
 looked at the journal. 
 
 Q. When did you read his testimony? A. Well, when it came 
 out in the papers; I could not exactly state; it was when he wasi 
 subpoenaed; I believe it was; well, I could not give any informa- 
 tion in relation to that. 
 
 Q. You were on the stand before? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long before you were on the stand before was that 
 conversation? A. Perhaps a week. 
 
 Q. Have you had amy conversation with Mr. Raines since you 
 were on the stand before? A. 'No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or with any one about that testimony? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Any conversation with any one whatever? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Db you know how it happened that you didn't testify about 
 the conversation with Bothenhausler when you were on the 
 stand before? A. I wasn^t asked anything about it 
 
 Q. You hadn't mentioned it to anybody? A. No, sir; I hadn't 
 mentioned it to anybody. 
 
 Q. You say when you talked to Bothenhausler you told himi 
 that they were creating so much trouble that nothing would be 
 done for either organizaition? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was that what you said to him? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What led you to make that remark to him? A. Well, the 
 conversation of the men in the house;, saying that we had mo right 
 to have this amendment put on to the biU. 
 
 Q. What house was that? A. In 8 Enigine. 
 
 Q. What men? A. Well, dUferent men; Conway was one. 
 
 Q. Conway was one? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. What did Conway say about it? A. He said that we had 
 done a very mean act in gfetting that amendinent placed on the 
 bill. 
 
 Q. Is that all he said? A. That is all, toi me. 
 
 Q. He simply said you did a very mean act? A. Something 
 like that; words to that effect; a mean trick or a mean act; 
 something like that. 
 
 Q. Won't you give the converaation with Conway? 
 
 Mr. Baines. — It seems to me this ought not to be admitted in 
 regard to the conversation between him and the man in the 
 fire-house, as there has been a very fuill statement of it. 
 
440 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Let him give the conversation. 
 
 A. TSie convereatioru I iiad with, Conway was on tlie moTning 
 of the day Hie bill appeared in: the papers, and when I went into 
 the engine-house to take charge of the company that day; I was 
 passing the engine, and Conway was doing some of Ms duties 
 aibout the engine, and I says, " I see we are with you in the bill 
 for the increase of salary;" and he looked up at me so mad 
 looking that I thought I would say nothing moTe and I went by 
 him; I went down in the cellar in the closet; he came down 
 sihoirtly afterward and came over to me and says, "I think you 
 people are pretty mean," or " didn't do what was right,'' or some- 
 thing like that, about that amendment to the bill ; I said, " Isn't 
 that our business; we don't look for any instructions from, you;" 
 that is all the conversation with Conway. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation with any one else in; the 
 engine-house? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or anywhere else? A. Not in relation to money. 
 
 Q. In relation td the bill? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation with Sheriden? A. I had 
 no conversation) whatever with Sheriden, but I have told him I 
 didn't want any oonvei"Hation with him; I was conversing with 
 Conway, but on a different matter altogether, when he told me 
 that he had a letter from. Mr. Piatt in his pocket. 
 
 Q. That was the first conversation? A. The first and the last. 
 
 Q. That was the only conversation you had withi Sheriden? 
 A. In relation to the bill; he spoke to me about the bill, and I 
 told Mm that I didn't want any conversation: with him. 
 
 Q. That is all? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation with Ward about it? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. None whatever? A. None whatever with Ward. 
 
 Q. What did Kothenhausler say when he came to you? A. 
 When I came from supper he was in the house and he called me 
 and says, "Have you heard in relaitiom to our bill;" I said "No;" 
 T wa.s surprised at him asldng me ; " No, I haven't heard anything 
 of it;" "Well," he says, "there seems to be some trouble about 
 it, as the bill ' ain't been reported, and I thought it would be a 
 good idea to see some of you people and see why we could not 
 make some arrangements!;" I said, " Fred, I don't know anything 
 about! it;" I said, "Fred, I don't Imow anything about that bill;" 
 and he said, " There is some kind of a disagreement started in: 
 our organization; we think if we would put up some money we 
 oould get the bill passed;" I said, "You are talking very foolish; 
 if you talk about any money you' will Mil both bills." 
 
446 
 
 Q. Did you have any other conversation with, Bothenhausler? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. l^O'U say the testimony which Bothenhausler gave, which 
 .Mr. Eiaines has read to yon, wasn't true? A. No, sir; the part 
 of it ain't true in relation to me speaking about any money being 
 put up; that ain't true. 
 
 Q. You say that when he swoiie that yon told him to get their 
 president to meet thie presidlentof the ofScers' asisioiciation, John J. 
 I'.ums, he swore to what wasn't true? A. When he said thiart); 
 yes, flilr. 
 
 Q. When hte testified to that, hte testified to wihat wiaisn't true? 
 A. Yes, sir; he mientionied the matter and he asked me would iit 
 not be a good idea to get onr preisideint to meet theirs, ajadl I 
 said, " It is am easy matter to tell your president." 
 
 Q. When he sayp that yoiu told him to try to get theilr presildeiat 
 to meet your president, Buims, he said what waism^t true? A. He 
 did; yes. 
 
 Q. When he testified thiatt you said "the arramgememt coiuid 
 not be made vrithout mioney," you say he testified to what wasn't 
 true? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You say that whten^ he testified that yoiii told Mm that the 
 bill woiuldn't be reported ont by the last daJy of the session^ that 
 he testiB;ed to what wasn't true? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When he testified that you told him that you had been told 
 so by frienids who had taken up your amendment, that he tesitified 
 to what wa;s not true? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When he testifledl that you siaid that the firiends who had 
 taken up the amendment were Payn, Bobertson and Raines, do 
 you say he testified to what wasi not true? A. Yes^ 811*; Mr. 
 Kaines, Coggeshall and them was not mentiomed, and I never 
 heard the men's names in any shape or foim at all. 
 
 Q. When he testified that you said, "The men are not up 
 there foir their health," he testified to what was not true? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When he testified that you said, " If you people are wise you 
 will come half-way with us and have both bills passed at the 
 same time; " did he testify to what was not true? A. Yes, sir; 
 there was nothiing with reference to it. 
 
 Q. When he testified that youi siaid, " The only way that can be 
 done is by seeing the people with the ' requirements; ' " did he 
 testify to what was not true? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When he testified that you said that Payn was one of the 
 men interested ito youir behalf, did h^ testify toi what was not 
 true? A. Yes, sir. 
 
447 
 
 Q. Whien Oomway testified that on thie molriiimig when the 
 ataendmeBt providing for the increase of the officers' salaries 
 was reported' in the newispapens as being put om in tihe Senate, 
 tliat you said' ta him, " I suppose now we are all om tlhe back of 
 the book but you will be with us befoire any length of time 
 transpires; " did he testilfy to what was not true? A. No, s^ir; 
 that was: not true. 
 
 Q. When Conway testified) that you said, " You kmoiw very well 
 that all these people are not njp there foii thein health, and they 
 want the necessary ; " do you say th^t he testified to what was 
 not true? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When Oonway testified that ybu^ said, "We have |10,000 
 placed," you say it was not true? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When Oonway testified that you' said toi him, in thiaf con- 
 versation, " Well, you will be with us before very lomg," he said, 
 "I don't know," and you said, "Well, you will," and he said, 
 " No, silr; we will not," amid you said, " Well, you laire a lot o$ 
 damn fools," did he testify to what was not true? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Yoiui know Sheriden ? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. He is a flremain in Eugine Oompany, No'. 8? A. Yes, Siir.^ 
 
 Q. When Sheriden testified that, on the moiminig after the 
 officers' amendment was pteiced ou the bill, you said, " Well, boys, 
 I am glad you are with us," did he testify to what wias not true? 
 A. Addressing my oouversatiorotoi him? 
 
 Q. Addressing your cOeversatiou to the boys? A. Yes, sir; T 
 said that. 
 
 Q. When Sheriden testified that he said' it was a shame for 
 you to interfere with their bill, did he testify- toi what was nol- 
 tnie? A. When he said that, he testified to wh^t was- not right; 
 I made that statement, but I didn't speak' toi MJm. 
 
 Q. When he testified, that you said that day, that for a money 
 consideration that bill was to be passed, did he testify to what 
 wiasn't true? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Wh'en he asked how much it was, and you said, " |10,000," 
 is that not true? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. When he asiked you who was fuirthering the interests of 
 the work, amd you' said, "Lou Paiyn," did he testify to what wasn't 
 true? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When he testified that you' told him that the officers had 
 put up $30,000, did he testify to what wasstn't true? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When he testified that you said that if they didn't put up 
 the donsh the a.mendment would stay in the committee of cities 
 irnfi! the last day of The session, w'hen it would be killed, did he 
 Testify to what wa8 not true? A. Yes, sir. 
 
448 
 
 Q. Whea he testified that you said Mr. Payn was the man Avho 
 was interested in your behalf, did he testify to what was uot 
 true? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do yoai know Ward? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. WaiTd is a fireman in Engine — ? A. Engine 8. 
 
 Q. When Ward testified that you said that you were glad the 
 boys were with you and that you had got |10,000 paid, and there 
 was nothing left for them to do but to come u,p also, do you say 
 he testified to what wasn't true? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When Ward testified that you said that Mr. Payn said that 
 the bill would lay with the committee on cities until we come 
 10 an understanding, did he testify to what wasn't true? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. When Ward testified that you said tiiat the officers had their 
 110,000 up, with more to come, did he testify tO'What was not 
 ti-ue? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you swear here that the testimony of Eothenhausler, of 
 Conway, of Sheriden and of Ward, that has been read to yon 
 tohnight, are all untrue? A. All but what I have stated. 
 
 j^niator O'Connor. — Can you give the committee a reason why 
 all these witnesses have manufactured a statement against you ? 
 A. Wiell, in my last statement I gave the reason why I think there 
 are three of them. 
 
 Q. Why? A. Prom the dissatisfaction that existed between 
 me and them from the time I took charge of the company ; I had 
 trouble with each one of them separately, and through that they 
 combined and they showed it until to-day; after this combina- 
 tion was formed in this company, and, as iiiey stated, they would 
 da me if it was posaible. 
 
 Q. When did they state that? A. At the time. 
 
 Q. Was Eothenhausler in that company? A. No, sir; Rothen- 
 hausler was not in that company; for his statement I have no 
 excuse to offer; but these three men, I know I have had very 
 serious trouble with them. 
 
 Mr. Baines. — Mr. Chairman, so much has been said outside of 
 the record by Mr. Boot with regard to the character of John 
 McCabe and bis record, and the estimation in which he was 
 held by Mr. Eoot personally, that I have procured the attendance 
 of three persons who have known John McCabe for 30 yeara and 
 whose testimony I desire to be taken with regard to his char- 
 acter. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — We won't receive it. 
 
 Mr. Baines. — T ofGer to show by these three witnesises the suc- 
 cession of indictments of him and the succession of shootings, to 
 
M9 
 
 the number of six, of Afferent individuals, and of certain engage- 
 menta and broils in the streets of New York. 
 
 Senaitor O'Cbnnor. — ^This committee announoed tliat th.ey 
 would close tMs testimony last nigbt, with, the understanding 
 last night that Mr. Payn was to be the only witness called, except 
 documentairy evidence, and Mr. Boot summed up and submitted 
 his views to the committee. You certainly knew as much 
 about Mr. MdOabe's character the other day as you doi to-night. 
 The committee will adhere to! the ruling that is laid down. Mr. 
 McCabe has been referred to long ago, and an indictment is not 
 evidencie against a man. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — We offer to prove the shootings upon which the 
 indictment was based. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — We won't recei^ve it. 
 
 Louis F. Payn, being duly swoni: as a witness and examined 
 by Mr. Eaines, testified as follows: 
 
 Q. Mr. Payn, what is your residence? A. I live at Chatham. 
 
 Q. Columbia county? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Yoii know of the pendency during the last two years in the 
 Legislature of legislaition affecting the salaries of the firemen of 
 the city of New York? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And of the bill relating to the 2 per cent, tax? A. I do. 
 
 Q. On foreign insurance companies? A. Yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. Kindly state to the oomimittee how you became interested a 
 year ago in behalf of the active firemen of New York with refer- 
 ence to the 2 per cent, tax bill? A. I became interested by an 
 applicaition made tO me by Captain Bums, and he made it at the 
 request of Chief Bonner, who was desirous of having a bill beaten 
 that was here to extend the time for 10 years for thi® money 
 to be paid to exempt firemen. 
 
 Q. That application was made to you where, Mr. Payn? A. At 
 my home. 
 
 Q. Chatham? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And who came to see you there about it? A. Captain 
 Bums and Mr. Preel, I think. 
 
 Q. Freel is the official representative of the organized firemen, 
 or wais at that time? A. Well, I think m; I never met himl 
 before. 
 
 Q. You have heard the testimony of Captain Burns with regard 
 to that conversation; as he repeated it, was it substantially cor- 
 rect? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have heard the tesitimony of Chief Bonner with refer- 
 ence to the conversation after the Legislature adjourned or after 
 that Mil vas beaten, 1 eitweenhim and yon, on the subject of his 
 F. 57 
 
450 
 
 offer to compensate you for expenses in connection with, that 
 matter? A. I ha Ye. 
 
 Q. Was it true thiat he so offered and you declined compensa- 
 tiosa? A. He did so offer, and I declined. 
 
 Q. How did he express himself with, regard to the value of your 
 serYictes to the department? A. He said in, behalf of Mmself and 
 the firemen, he expressed Mmself as feeling very grateful, amd 
 said he should like very much if I could do it to have me accept 
 some money for my services and expenses, etc.; and he namied' 
 |1,500 or $2,000; I declined to receive any. 
 
 Q. What was your next connection or knowledge with regard 
 to legislation affecting the salaries of the fire department of ]^ew 
 York? A. Conniection or knowledge? 
 
 Q. Yes. A. Well, I heard, throngh the winter, that there was 
 a bill in the Assembly to increase the pay of the firemen; I sup- 
 posed thait it took in all of the firemen, officers and all; that bill 
 passed' the Assembly; I had never seen it; I didn't know what 
 it contained ; I knew that a man named Quigg and one Sheffield 
 were interested in it from rumor, but I knew no'thiug about it, 
 through the Assembly, and until after it got here. 
 
 Q. Into the Senate? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Well, what was the first conversation you had, that you 
 called to mind there, with reference to it with anybody? A. The 
 first conversation I ever had with anybody in regard to it, was 
 with Captain Bums. 
 
 Q. I'he presidient of the Officers' Association? A. I think so. 
 
 Q. Where was that, and about when? A. It was after the bill 
 oame to the Senate and before it was reported firom the commit- 
 tee; it was at the Grand Union Hotel, at Niew York; there Oap^ 
 tain Bums came to see me in regard to the condition of the 2 per 
 cent, bill that was here this vdnter, and that is here now. 
 
 ■Q. Bid you have a conversation with him at that tiuDje in which 
 this salary bill oame up? A. I didh't see him but a few minutes ; 
 after I had told him what I knew about the situation of the 2 per 
 cent. Mil, I congratulated him on the fact that the pay of the 
 flreraien had been raised by the Assembly, and told: him that the 
 Senate would probably pass it; he said that he was glad it had 
 passed thp Assembly, and hoped it would pass the Senate, but 
 he says, "We are not in it;" that was his expression; I asikedi 
 him what he mieant by that; he said that that was fori the fire- 
 men and tliat the officers were not in it; when I remarked to him 
 that I would look into, the matter when I got back to Albany and 
 see what I could do about it; which I did after I got back here. 
 
 Q. T\Tiat had been your relations with Captain Bums pre- 
 viouisly? A. My relations with Mm were very pleasant always; 
 
451 
 
 Q. He liad been a Ohaithiaaii boy? A. Oh, yea 
 Q. And when hie went to New Ycwk hiad yoiui been mstrumeiital 
 in helping him into the fire depairtmemt? A. Yes, sir; I helped 
 him into the fire departtmeint 12 or 15 years ago; John Bums 
 was brought up by a coiuple of Quaker ladies who li^red within 
 a stone's throw ol my house, amd it was at their request that I 
 put him into the fire departmenti 
 
 Q. You have always been interested in him and in his promo- 
 tion? A. Always; las I hare been in every one else who laves in 
 ■ my county and behaves himself. 
 
 Q. You looked into that bill whem you returned to Albany? 
 A. I inquired about the situation of the bill, and found it was in 
 the committee; I procured the drawing of an amendment to the 
 bill which would give the flremeni wh&;t the law gave them, two or 
 three or four years ago, — that is, the officers of the fire depart- 
 ment 
 
 Q. Tliat is, thte salary undeiri the existing law had b'eeni per- 
 missive, latnd you made it man<Jait!ory? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And those figures that you inserted, were they permi'ssive 
 figures in the former law? A. Yes, slir, — what tie board of 
 estimate and appoirtionment could give them if they saw fit, 
 
 Q. Then what did you do? A. I saw Senator Robertson and 
 handed him this aimendment and told what iti contained, and 
 what there was about it, apd asked him if he would have that 
 amendtnent put on the bill that had passed the Assembly, in the 
 oommittee; he said he woiuld Itook into it; examine the law and 
 he would let me know; and in the course of three or four diay® he 
 told me that he had amended that MH) and I never have had a 
 conversiation with Senatoi' Robertson in regard to that bill after 
 that. 
 
 Q. You recollect the occasion of the bill being reported to the 
 Senate, without that amendment? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. On the 13th of March, 1895? A. Well, I can't tell the date. 
 
 Q. The original Pavey bill being reported oh the committee? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When you offered that amendment? A. I think it was. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation with Stetnaitbir Robertson 
 with regard to rethrning the bill to its original shape and so 
 reporting it? A. I never did. ■ 
 
 Q. Was it done in any way, at your instance? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Had you any further relation with the bill after it. was so 
 reported without the amendment by Senator Robertson in the 
 oitd'es committee? A. None whajtever. 
 
 Q. Did you have ainy conversation with any Senator with 
 regard to fsny fund or moneys beilng or having been raised, with 
 
452 
 
 reference to that Mil? A. Nb, sir; I never, had: any talk with 
 any Senator m regiard to any money hairing been raised for thiat 
 bill, or in regard to any money being rai'sed in connection wsitth 
 any other bill in my life. 
 
 Q. Did yo!u hiaTe any conversation with any one abou* lamy 
 peemniiary influence in any way in favor lof that bill? A- 'No; 
 man, womiam or child. 
 
 Q. Did Officer Bums or any other person in behlalf of the Are 
 department converse with yoai, while Uhat bill was piendimg, on 
 the subject of amy moneys being in their hands, or being avail- 
 able for the purpose lof advancing that bill, or th.e amendhneiat? 
 A. Oaptain Bums is a very brave m'an, but I donH believe he 'has 
 the courage to make any statement to me am regard to mloney for 
 my services, and he never did. 
 
 Q. Did anybody sniggest momey, in connectioai with that bill, to 
 you in any way whole it was peniding? A. I never heard of any 
 money, any suggestion of nDone^y, in regard to that bill aften it 
 came to the Senate ; I heard rumors about money being used to 
 pass it in the Assembly, but knew nottlhinig abotuit it 
 
 Q. Was there a time when you; had a conversation wa.th 
 Mr. Quigg with reference to (we will speak of the saliary bill for 
 the pcesent), with reference to the saiairy bill ; soi fan as any other 
 comes into the oonver'siation, will you commence .and tell those 
 conversations, from start to finish, giving us the time and place 
 as nearly as you' can? A. Well, a friend of mine ini New York 
 spoke to me abouit an amendm,ent to the firemen's bill and told 
 me that he wished! that I would have th'at amenidimept taken from 
 the bill,— that he wanted it done because Mr. Quigg had asked 
 him to interest me in' the matter; I declinedl to do it; then he 
 aisked me if I wiouldn't db it for him ais ai personal favwir; and I 
 said that I was willing to. 
 
 Q. Then you said you would? A. I said I would imdertake to 
 get the amendnient taken ujpi; Mir. Quigg came into the office 
 where I was about that time, and I suppose this gentlemani told 
 him • what T said; he came over and spoke to me about it, and 
 thanked me for it; I told him Ihat he need not thank me, that 1 
 didn't do it for him, that I did it for a friend who had asked it 
 as a personal favor. 
 
 Q. A friend who was there present? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there any further conversation at that time between 
 YOU and Mr. Quigg on that subject or any other? A. Not that I 
 remember. 
 
 Q. Was anything said about Mr. Quigg going to Albany? A. 
 Eix(^use me; he did say he thought of going to Albany; I said to 
 him, "On this maftter?" "Well," he said, "this matter amd other 
 
453 
 
 matters;" I said, "Well, t!here wooald be no use of your going on 
 this matter, because I think I can attend to tbat myself;" he 
 did go. 
 
 Q. Mr. Quigg says in that coniversation, or some other (it don't 
 miake any difference), you said to him, in substance, that it would 
 be expiensive to you to take off that amendment; did yoa ever 
 suggest that to him, or that in substance? A. I never said any 
 such thing as that to Quigg in my life; I couldn^'t have said it. 
 
 Q. He says you said to him, " Well, you want me to do this, 
 no matter what it means to me;" im substance, did you say that 
 to him? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You may state, in that conversation, what did occur or was 
 said, if anything, touching thiat subject? A. There was nothing 
 said beyond what I have stated, in New York; the next time I 
 saw Mr. Quigg was in this chamber. 
 
 Q. The next day? A. Yes: I should think it was the next day. 
 
 Q. Was that the day the bill was reported from the committee? 
 A. I can't tell you; I think it was. 
 
 Q. Now, you may tell the conversation you had with Mr. Quigg 
 at that time? A. ■V\Tien I came into the Senate chamber, Mr. 
 Quigg was over at Senator Eobertson's seat, talking with him, 
 and in! the course of 10 or 15 minutes he came over and sat by 
 me on the sofa in the room. 
 
 Q. How close to you did he get? A. Well, he sat next to me. 
 
 Q. Tell the conversation, please? A. He said, "Noiw the fire- 
 men's bill is all right, and will go through in its original shape; 
 now, I wish you would take hold and help me pass the real estate 
 bill." 
 
 Q. Commonly called the judicial sales bill? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. G'o on. A. He said, "I am- personally interested in. that 
 bill; many of those people live in my district and they gave me 
 last fall for my election a large amount of money, and I want to 
 do this for them;" I said, " There is no use of discussiag the real 
 estate with me; I am opposed to the bill; it is an outrageous bill; 
 I look upon it as a piece of highway robbery ; it is stealing a 
 piece of property belonging to one man and giving it to another 
 and, besides, it is annulling the action of the courts in New York, 
 and you Icaow it, to aisk any Eepubliicam Legislature to pass any 
 such legislation;" that was all there was of the conversa,tion ; I 
 think I have never seen Mr. Quigg to speak to him since. 
 
 Q. When did your acquatatance with Mr. Quigg commence? 
 A. I should say four or five years agoi 
 
 Q. At amy time has it been intimate, or otherwise? A. Never. 
 ,Q. Never intimate? A. No, sir. 
 
454 
 
 Q. Was there any time wJien lie and you came into collision 
 or opposition in any way? A. No, sir; not personally; I have 
 never liked Mr. Quigg. 
 
 Q. Well, did you at any time during the past year antagonize 
 Ma political aspirations? A. I was always opposed to Ms politi- 
 cal aspirations, because I didn't believe in him. 
 
 Q. And how did you antagonize him? A. Well, I protesited 
 against his nomination for Congress, but without efEect. 
 
 Q. Did you conceal in any way your views with regard to him, 
 or the reasions why you opposed him? A. Never. 
 
 Q. You made them a matter of aommon talk? A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. Among those with whom, he was intimate? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did the -subject of his aspirations for mayor ever become a 
 subject of talk on your part? A. Well, it made me smile. 
 
 Q. Well, did you talk; unless Mr. Quigg was present he would 
 not have enjoyed your smile; but if you talked he might hear 
 what you said? A. Well, I don't remember any particular thing 
 that I have siaid ; I thought it was too ridiculous to talk about. 
 
 Q. Was there any time when you had further communicati'on 
 or different oommunication with Mr. Quigg than you have 
 already stated, with regard to the judicial sales bill or the Hilary, 
 bill? A. 'No, sir. 
 
 Q. You have staJted now the substance olfi yioiuir comimmnica- 
 tions? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he approach! you waith r^aird to th^e judicial sales bill 
 or any other kind at Albany than this one you have spoken of? 
 A. Not that I remember of, sir. 
 
 Q. Do yoiui know this flremam, Smith, who has justi left the 
 stand? A. No. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any conversation with Mr. Rothen^ 
 hauisler? A. I never saw himi tihat I know of; I never had any 
 conversation with hiiim; I don't know amy officers in the fire 
 department, barring half a dozen; I couldn't call four men by 
 name in the whole fire departmienit. 
 
 Q. Have you stated all the commiunicatioms that yoiu had with 
 officers of the fire department with reference to the salary bill up 
 to the time of its passage? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There were no other or diifferent arrangementsi from what 
 you have already istated? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Any other oomversatioms you had with Officer Bums? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Mr. Payn, what has been your business ftor the laist 25 
 years? A. I have been a manuifaicttirer. 
 
 Q. In what lines? A. Paper and boards. 
 
 Q. What kind of paper? A. Straw paper and straw boards. 
 
45S 
 
 Q. Where are the factories? 'A. Loioated a* OiMhsm; I hiaTe 
 been emgagedl in the broken-stone buBinessL 
 
 Q. Mamiifactiiring broken stone? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What other Idlnes of business? A. Oh, I am somry to say, I 
 own a newspaper. 
 
 Q. Then you are not so umf oiitiinate as toi edit itt yonirself, are 
 you? A. liTo, sir. 
 
 Q. What other lineis of buisiness have you beep! engaged in? 
 A. Oh, yes; I heard Byrnes say the other day that I was in the 
 tin business. 
 
 Q. How much did you mine tin? A. Well, I have made quite a 
 good deal of tin out theie, .perhaps a carload or twoi of metal, 
 but it was very expensive; it cost me about $120,000. 
 
 Q. That was sunk in the venture? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What was the name of your coanipainy? A. The American 
 Tin Miming Compstaiy. 
 
 Q. There is some sitook on hand that you would part with? A. 
 Yes; I bought a good deal of stock but I never sold any; I could 
 not flhd any of that kind of chaps. 
 
 Q. Notwithstanding these numerous ventures, Mr. Payn, you 
 have haid considerable time to devote to political aififadrs? A. 
 Yes; I have spent moire tinie than I wish I had. 
 
 Q. In legislative business* A. Yesi, sir. 
 
 Q. When did you begin toi take an' ainterest in (I won't say 
 politics) legislatiora, and the action of legislatures, with regard, 
 to politics? A. Well, I suppose, I have always, lor 35 years, been 
 interested in the election of Speakers, youi know, and United 
 Stateis Seniors and that isort of thing. 
 
 Q. Been engaged in the mianiagement of political mlacMnes in 
 the State at large? A. Well, I believe it aint fashionable toi call 
 them miaohilnes now; that is whbt we used to call them. 
 
 Q. Have you conducted one on a smiall scale with the assist- 
 ance of your fellow citizens in your own' congressilonal district? 
 A. Well, it has been charged that I did. 
 
 Q. Have you taken any very active interest in all branches of 
 political organizations during the last 85 years? A. Well, if I 
 should take what the newspapers say I should have toi say yes. 
 
 Q. Wouldn't you speak truthfully at the same time notwith- 
 standing the newspapers said it? A I have taken a goodi deal of 
 interest in it 
 
 Q. Been very active? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Devoted a good deal of time to ilt? A. More than I wish I 
 had. 
 
 Q. Where did you have your business office in the years 1868 
 and 1869? A. I had it in the Etfe Building. 
 
 Q. Where? A, The Erie Blailroad BuildiLng. 
 
456 
 
 Q. Adjoining whaisie office? A. Mr. Goiuld's. 
 
 Q. Jayi Gkmld's? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 ^Q. In New York? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Did you become intenested iln any way in coimeotioin! witli 
 legislation in 1869, relaiting to licensing ten millioins of bonds 
 that had been isstied by tke Einile road? A. Yes; I did. 
 
 Q. At whose instance did you take an interest in thlat legislar 
 tive matter? A. I was first solicited to interest myself by 
 J. C. Bancroft Davis ; he was then attorney for the Eirde railroad, 
 afterwiard Assistant Seoretary, of State; and afterward a mian 
 by the name ol Thompson, who was a director of the raiLroad. 
 
 Q. And in that connection yoiu attended to the interests of tihe 
 railroad in connection with that bill in Albany somewhat? A. 
 I was employed to come here and advise Mr. Booth and to intro- 
 duce him to sneh men as I knew would be able to help him in 
 his undertaldng, which was to legalize bondsi to the amount of 
 $10,000,000, that they had issued. 
 
 Q. What interests were antagonizing that issue? A. Daniel 
 Drew and Cornelius A'andeTbilt. 
 
 Q. Well, that matter was finally settled in the licensing of that 
 bond issue? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. A favorable action of the Legislature in Mr. Gould's inter- 
 est was taken? A. He got jnst 17 votes in ilte Sfenate. 
 
 Q. And after tliat legislation was passed, there was a legisla- 
 tive investigation of the whole business? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You were a witness upon that investigation? A. I was. 
 
 ■Q. A man by the name of John Van Valkenburgh was also a 
 witnesis upon the investigation? A. He was; I remember those 
 two very well. 
 
 Q. And the report which has been put in evidence by Mr. Boot 
 was made by the committee of the Senate which was conducting 
 the investigation? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have read that report? A. Well, I read it at the time; 
 that is a good while ago; I saw the report while you were going 
 CO with your examination in New York, and glanced over it; 
 that is the only time I have seen it; but I have a very good recol- 
 lection. 
 
 Q. Subsequently wliat occurred with reference to the testi- 
 mony of John Van' Valkenburgh, given on that investigation? 
 A. John Vai^ Valkenburgh made an affidavit in which he swore — 
 
 Ml". Root. — Excuse me, Mr. iElaitnes. Are you going to put 
 the affidavits in? 
 
 Mr. Raines. — We expect to, before the investigation closes, but 
 we haven't been able to get them here yet. They are, I suppose, 
 en route, and we expect to put in the documents. 
 
457 
 
 Mr. Eooit. — Well, da the committee want to take tlie state- 
 ment? 
 
 Mr. Eaines. — We are forced out by the committee on account 
 of your engagements. We are required to put Mr. Payn om the 
 stand as the last, to'-night. We should have been very glad to 
 have held off until the documents were here, but it didn't seem 
 to be , convenient for everybody to do it. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — We will receive the testimony, with the 
 understanding that the affidavits, or certified copies of them, are 
 produced, or else the evidence will be stricken out as to the con- 
 tents of them. 
 
 Mr. Raineis. — Very good. 
 
 Witness. — Van Valkenburgh made an affidavit in which he 
 stated that the evidence he gave before that committee, so far as 
 it related to me, was not true; and with other affidavits, corrob- 
 orating Van Valkenburgh'si affidavit, my lawyers laid them 
 before this committee. 
 
 Q. That is the committee who signed that report? A. The 
 committee who signed that report and conducted that investiga- 
 tion; Matthew Hale was chairman; a man by the name of Nichols 
 or Mciholson — i 
 
 Mr. Eaines. — ^Asher P. MchoJs, of BufiEalo. 
 
 Witness. — Nichols was another member, and Thayer was 
 another member. 
 
 Senator O'Connor.— Of Troy? 
 
 A. I don^t know; he was a Senator at that time; the chairman 
 of that comunittee made a statement in w>riting. 
 
 Q. Mr. Matthew Hale? A. Yes, sir; in which he said — 
 
 Mr. Eoot. — I would ask the same question about this state- 
 ment. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — ^ Certainly; they are all taken with the 
 understanding tbat these papers which I understand are on file 
 tn Washington, or certified copies of them, will be produced 
 before the committee. 
 
 Mr. Root. — This is the first I have heard about their being on 
 file in Washington. 
 
 Mr. Eaines. — Thaffc is a fact. 
 
 Mr. Eioot. — I suppose if they are produced they will speak. for 
 themselves? 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — They will, amd thte evidence , will be 
 stricken out unless they aire produced. 
 
 Mr. Eloot. — If tiiey are produced, then the evidence is un- 
 necessary? 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — It will bte taken toi-ndightand stricken out 
 if they aire not prodtaoed. 
 F. 68 
 
458 
 
 Mr. Eloot. — Taken few the purpoBe of being stricken omt if it is 
 necessary. 
 
 Henatoir O'Conpor. — I isiippose, tHey being oiuitside of tlbe -jurisr 
 dictalon of this body, and oiutside of the jurisdicitioH' of the Staite, 
 he is entitled to give the contents ofl them. 
 
 Mr. Eoott. — Thje rule is quite oustoimiairy toi apply tihat certified 
 copies of papers whicli are on file in public offloes may be read. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Of coarse that is the higher evidence, but 
 we take snch evidence as is in the jurisidiotloni o* the State. 
 Besides, those papers are dollateral matter; they are not the 
 foundation of thils iuvestigationi. Proceed. 
 
 Mr. Eiadnes. — Gro on, Mr. Payn. 
 
 A. Mr. Hale set forth! in thatt paper that abundan<5e of evidence 
 had been produced before him whieU justified him m eliminating 
 from that invesitigiation questions — 
 
 Q. EepO(rt? A. That report, the evidence of Van Vialkenbuirgh, 
 and with th'ait elimSlnated, there was nothing left against me, and 
 that I was fully exonemtted' from all blame; that was signed by 
 Matthew Hale and this man Nicholson or Nichols. 
 
 Q. Asher P. Mch'ols? A., And they wemt to' Thayer (it is a 
 good while ago), and I forget whether he laid at the podlnit of 
 death or whether he was actually dead; those papers, later on, 
 when my friends were talking abiont having me appointed United 
 States marshal, when this report, this old chestnut, was thrown 
 in at Waishinigton, tMnking to interfere with that appodntment; 
 then the member of Congress flroan' m,y district — 
 
 Q. What was his name? A. John H. Peckhajn. 
 
 Q. Go on. A. He telegraphed wanting Ixj know what oonld be 
 said in answer to that report that had been' filed; I was not 
 home; my broliher-in-law sent these papers which he had, I 
 think, in his pjossessiion at that time, and they were filed in 
 Washington, but not quite soon enough, because I was appointed 
 and confirmed before they reached there; they went to the 
 Attorniey-Generars office where, I presume, they are now, as I 
 have been communicating for the last three or four da,y8i with 
 Washington, hoping to get thtose papers, but the difficulty has 
 been that AttO'mey-Greneral Olney has been engaged in tliiis 
 litigation before the United States court, and he could not be got 
 at; I assume the papers will be fonnd and forwarded here. 
 
 Q. By whom were yon appointed United States marshal? A. 
 Ulysses S. Grrant. 
 
 Q. And who was, at the time, Attorney-General? A. Charles 
 Devens. 
 
 Q. Of Massachusetts? A- Yes, sir. 
 
459: 
 
 Q. And who were the Sematoirs ait that tilme from the State of 
 New York? A. Fenton, I think, and Eoseoe Oonkling; Conkling 
 surely; no; Fenton wais not there; he was appointed in 1877; 
 Grant's term expired on the 4th of March, 1877. 
 
 Q. Senator O'Connor. — It must have been Kernan. A. I 
 couldn't say; I think Conkling was the only Republican Senator. 
 
 Q. Who took charge of your confirmation in the Senate? A. 
 Senator Oonkling. 
 
 Q. And upon his reoommendation to the Senate what was the 
 vote upon your confirmation? A. At his personal request to the 
 Democratic members of the Senate, I was honored by unanimous 
 confirmation. 
 
 Q. Had you supposed, Mr. Payn, that thisi old report had 
 served its day and purpose, down to the present time? A. Well, 
 I had supposed so, until it appeared on this investigation. 
 
 Q. From 1869 down to the time of the close of the public career 
 of Keuben E. Fenton, were you on terms of intimate confidence 
 with him? A. Especially so. 
 
 Q. And were you associated with him continually,- publicly, 
 in carrying out the lines of party organization and party work 
 which he conducted? A. Yes; from 1866 until the day he left 
 the Republican party. * 
 
 Q. You may state, Mr. Payn, whoi were the chief indorsers: of 
 your papers for appointment as a marshal of the courts of the 
 United States from the southern district of New York at the time 
 you were so appointed? A. Well, every prominent Republican 
 in the State of New York whoi I thought was worth having, 
 including all. the Republicans in the Legislature, I believe, in 
 bo*h branches. 
 
 Q. Congressional delegation? A. I think every Republican 
 member of Congress from this State. 
 
 Q. And if you had any State officers at that time, they were 
 on the list? A. Beyond any question, because there was nO' 
 mugwumps or goo-goos in those days. 
 
 Q. During the tirae that Reuben E. Fenton was the leader of 
 a large element of the Republican party, did you retain the con- 
 fidence and confidential relatiouis with him and of the men who 
 were in his intimate confidence in the active control of the 
 Republican party, or that wing of it? A. I did. 
 
 Q. And afterward, when Roseoe Conkling succeeded him, did 
 you, at any time, become the confidential friend of Roseoe Conk- 
 ling and of the men who were associated with him' in carrying 
 out his purpoise in the promotion of the welfare of the Republican 
 party? A. Oonkling didn't succeed Fenton. 
 
460 
 
 Q. "When he did" was my question. A. I stayied with Fen- 
 ton as long as he was a Bepublioan;; the night that he left the 
 Eepublican party he telegraphed me to meet him here; I met 
 him and dined with him at thei Delavan House, and left him 
 about '6 o'clock; bade him good-bye, he remarking that our politi- 
 cal paths severed there and then; he went up and made his 
 Tweddle Hall speech, which took him out ■ of the Eepublican 
 party; that was the end of Fenton in the Eepublican 
 party; I had always fought Conkling and that wing or faction 
 until Oonklimg was a candidate for President, when I went to the 
 convention as a delegate and supported him. 
 
 Q. And from that time what were your relations with Mr. 
 Conkling? A. They were probably as close as any two men in 
 the nation from the day he secured my confirmation to the day 
 he died. 
 
 Q. Was there, at any time, any question of doubt about your 
 retention of his absolute trust? A. Oh, no. 
 
 Q. As a representativie of his in the political affairs of the 
 State of New York? A. It was never suspected, I guess, by 
 anybody. 
 
 Q. And was the same true with regard to all of the men who 
 circulated al^out Eoscoe Conkling as his confidential friends? 
 A. So far as I know it was. 
 
 Q. In regard to your relations with Governor Cornell, how inti- 
 mate have they been? A. They have been very intimate, indeed ; 
 we are on very friendly terms to-day. 
 
 Q. Sometimies your political limes have been different? A. 
 Yes; I haven't always agreed with him. 
 
 Q. Of late years, you have been somewhat associated with the 
 wing of the Eepublican party sometimes designated as the Piatt 
 wing of the Eepublican party? A. That charge has been made; 
 I have never denied it. 
 
 Q. And have you been at times admitted to the confidence of 
 those persons who are associated upon lines of political action 
 which seem to be in accordance with the" views of Mr. Piatt? 
 A. Always; I believe. 
 
 Q. Are there some persons in the city of New York who of late 
 have not been in accord with those lines of political action and 
 those views of party organizaticnis ? A. I am sorry to say 
 there are. 
 
 Q. How has Mr. Quigg been placed with reference to those 
 question issues of public life? A. Well, until a very recent date 
 he has been acting with those with whom I acted. 
 
 Q. And what change of political relations has occurred of 
 latte which bring him into antagonism with them? A. He has 
 
461 
 
 been laiboriiig to break down Eepublicans; he advocated tbe 
 removal of Kerwin and Murray. 
 
 Q. And hais be recently beooojie estranged from persons wbo 
 have been his assistants during! the past years in political life? 
 A. He is politically estranged fromi very many of them. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — What has all this got to do with the 
 iuA^estigation ? » 
 
 Mr. Eaimes. — I am simiply getting at the kernel of the antagoi- 
 nism between Mr. Qnigg and Mr. Payn, which is a change of heart 
 onl the part of Quigg and an assault on Mr. Payn in the line 
 of his recent activity in public affairs, on lines different from 
 those with which he has been heretofore identified. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Compress it as much as possible. 
 
 Mr. Eaines. — I don't intend to pursue thisi much further. A 
 suggestion is as good as a kick under these conditions. 
 
 Q. Well, what has been the relations of the Etnsi^eins of New 
 York, the proprietorai of the Press, of which Mr. Quigg is the 
 editor, with this political division? A. Well, I don't know just 
 how to class thiem; perhaps you might say they were Union 
 (League goo-goos', or something of thait kind. 
 
 Q. Well, we will pass that subject; has Mr. Boot any par- 
 ticular relations with the goo-goos? A. Well, I believe he is 
 classed there. 
 
 Q. Well, Mr. Payn, for a good many years you have had some- 
 thing to do with legislation at Albany ? A. Yes; I had. 
 
 Q. And spent a large portion of the legislative session here? 
 A. Well, sometimes;' I was here a good deal last winter and a 
 good deal this winter ; when the Legislature was Democratic I 
 was not here so much. 
 
 Q. And you were improving the time I suppose now — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When it is Eepublican? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You may explain, Mr. Payn, the business which you have 
 had in Albany with rieference to legislative work, in your own 
 way. A. Well, I have done quite a good deal; you don't want 
 me to go into particulars. 
 
 Q. I will askr one or two' questions; I have no doubt Mr. Root 
 will do hi^ share of the work, as usual, and I will leave this for 
 him. A. I don't understand your question. 
 
 Q. Well, I will just ask you, have you, Mr. Payn, in any way 
 been a party to the use of money for the purpose of influencing 
 legislation from the time you have been visiting Albany at ses- 
 sions of the Legislature? A. I never had talk with any legis- 
 lator, this winter or at any other time, in regard to money, in 
 regard to furthering legislation. 
 
462 
 
 Q. Have you been employed for the purpose of watchiag legis- 
 lation at Albany by any persons or corporations? A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. And those employments, are they annual? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Salaried employments? A. Certainly; I don't work for fun. 
 
 Q. And your duties in thosie employments are of what charac- 
 ter, Mr. I'ayn? A. Well, if you employed me, for instamce, you 
 would employ me to look after any legislation that might ijnter- 
 fere with you in any way, or withi the interests that you repre- 
 sent — either to prevent some evil striking you or to further 
 some legislation that was in your intenpts. 
 
 Q. Aside from those services, which you rendered in. looking 
 after those interests, to protect them and advance them in the 
 way that you have described, have you given much attention to 
 th.e political aspect of legislation? A. I ha,ve scanned that pretty 
 closely; I have had my eyes upon that. 
 
 Q. And have you watched the prospects of the Eepublican 
 party and the wing of it with which you have been identified 
 closely, with regard to all matters of legislation, that came for- 
 ward? A. Yes, sir; I have been very careful. 
 
 Q. That has been done in the interests of the people vnth whom 
 you have been politically associated in the State? A. Yes, sir; 
 that is what I have tried to do. 
 
 Q. Is tllere anything you wish to state, Mr. Payn, that I have 
 not called for? A. No, sir. 
 
 Oross-examination by Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. Mr. Payn, where do you reside in Albany? A. At 128 State 
 street. 
 
 Q. You have a house there, or apartmeut, or board' there? A. 
 I liave apartments in the house ; part of the house. 
 
 Q. And those were taken' for the session of the Legislatiure? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long hiaive you piutesuedl that practice of having apart- 
 ments in Albany during tihe session of the Legislature? A. Ever 
 since the Delav:an. House burned. 
 
 Q. Before that time yoiu! lived at the Delavam when in Albany? 
 A. I lived at the Delavan. 
 
 Q. You have been in Albany during the entire time since the 
 Legislature convened the 1st of January, e:xcept SatuTdiays and 
 Sundaiys? A. Practically. 
 
 Q. And how was it during the year 1894? A. Well, I was here 
 a good deal of thte timet 
 
 Q. Most of th'e timie? A. Most olB the time. 
 
 Q. And during the year 1893 ? A. I was not here isio muchw 
 
463 
 
 Q. Wliat part of the time were yoiu here in 1893? A. I was 
 not here very often. • 
 
 Q. And in 1892? A. Sir? 
 
 Q. Were you here dta, 1892? A- I was here sotme, not very 
 miioh. 
 
 Q. In 1891? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. In the preceding years, howi was it? A. I have been here 
 more or Itess for a good miany years. 
 
 Q. Ennning back how long? A. Oh, well, I should say, — I 
 have always been here for 35 years or miiore at the organization 
 of the [Legislature, etc., and I have been here nuore or less during 
 the sessions for 20 years; probably, or 2S. ^ 
 
 Q. And when you say " more or less," I suppiose you miean tteit 
 you have passed a considerable time here duirdng each session, 
 attending to legislaltion? A. Poissibly; yes, 'sir. 
 
 Q. You 'dlon^t say that I am^ fflnciorreot in that statement? A. 
 Oh, no. 
 
 Q. DurlLng all that time have you ibeen following bbth lines of 
 interest which you have mientioned, — looiking after private 
 individual interests and tihe general interests of the Republican 
 party? A. Oh, not always; not always; always loioMng after 
 the political end of it, and occasionally the other part of it. 
 
 Q. You! have been, dtuiring this past year, spending your tlijne 
 here, I understand? A. Pretty freely. 
 
 Q. In looking after the interests of porivate employers? A. Yes, 
 sir. ' ' 
 
 Q. And dnring the session of the year 1894, were you doing so? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And in 1893? A. Well, I think, to a motre limited extent 
 
 Q. And during all these pirevious yeansi, from time to time, you 
 have been doing this siame thing I suppose? A. "W^ell, perhaips 
 it would be tooi much tio say during all those years. 
 
 Q. Dnring what proportion of them? A. Well, I shoiuld 
 thdtnk, perhaps, — oh, anywhere from one-half to twot-thinds of the 
 •time. 
 
 Q. During the past 215 years? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I suppose from one^half to two-thirds of the time yon 
 mention, when the Legislature was in session, dullhg th'e past 
 25 years, you have been here looking after the interests of private 
 employers? A. Mji; probably noti half of the time private 
 employers, — probably lessl than thait 
 
 Q. Well, one-third? A. Well, possibly. 
 
 Q. Yoiu were here during the session of 1868, and engaged, in 
 the interests, of Mr. G-ould and the Erie Railway Oompany. I 
 understand ? A. I was. 
 
464 
 
 Q. I thiilnk you remarked that yoiu did molt work for " fun ; " was 
 it? A. I meant that, altlioiugh. I didn't say it. 
 
 Q. I tMnk th,at is w-hat you said', and of ooiuirse yom received 
 compensati'Oin for yonr yaluaible services in, looking :after the 
 iinteirests olf your private employers about their legislaitiom? A. 
 Oh, certainly. 
 
 Q. Who aire the persons who empjoyeid yoiuiduiSng this year, 1895 ? 
 A. Well, Mr. Eloot, I shall have to decline to answer, by advice 
 of my coumsel; that relates to my private buisiness, amd I don't 
 think you have any right to ask me. 
 
 Q. Well, who were the persons who employed you dlirdng the 
 year 1894, to h)ok after their pj-ivate interests? A. Well, I 
 decline for the same reason. 
 
 Q. You decline to state any of the personis by whom, you have 
 been employed to look after their private imtenests in the Legis- 
 lature? A. I declinie to state any; about the same as you would, 
 I presume, if you y^ere retained. 
 
 Q. What oompensatiloin have, you received from these persons? 
 A. Well, I also decline tol state that fori the samie reason. 
 
 Q. Will youi state the compensation youi have received fpoim any 
 of them? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What sums of money have you received from them? A- 
 That is the) same question; I decline to answer it for ,the same 
 reason. 
 
 Q. Do you decliilne to sitate what sums of money you hare 
 received from any of them? A I decline to state what sums of 
 money I have received from) any. 
 
 Mr. Eioot. — I think I will take the juidgment of the gentlemen 
 of the committee as to whether the witness shionld answeir) the 
 question by whom he is employed, land what he has received from 
 them for Ms services. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — What is the proposition, Mr. Root? 
 
 Mr. Eloot. — The witness has testified that he is engaged here in 
 looking after legislation loti prilvate employers. On cross-exam- 
 ination I ask him who they are. He declines to state. I ask- 
 the committee to require htm to state. 
 
 Senator O'Connor.-^ The majority of the comimlilttee thinks that 
 Mr. Payn, having gone into the siuibject himself of giving his 
 business here, th'at we have a right to reqnire him to' state who, 
 from and how mtuch money he has received, and who he is 
 employed by. He haJving stated that on his own responsibility, 
 puts himself subject to cross-examination. All that we cam dk> is 
 to direct him to answer. 
 
 Witness. — With all due respect to the Senators I decline. 
 
465 
 
 Senator O'Oonmar. — The stenognapheri will note this. 
 
 Mr. Eraot. — I ask that the committee exercise the power 
 vested in it by law td compel tMs witness to answer tke question. 
 
 Senator O'Ooainloir. — We hlaive nid power, as al! committee, more 
 than to direct liilm to answer and to report to the Senate. 
 
 Mr. Boot. — It is nnderstooid that tihe committee will do that. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — We have not the power as a committee, — 
 all we can do is to report to the Senate. 
 
 By Mr. Root: 
 
 Q. Where do yora keep your bank account, Mr. Payn? A. I 
 haven't got any. 
 
 Q. You have had a bank acco'unt, of cofuree? A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. During your long career? A. I haven't had much of a bank' 
 account since Glevelandl was elected. 
 
 Q. Not evem since the Legislature was Eepublioan? A. No. 
 
 Q. When did you last have a bank accoiunt? A. I dton't 
 remember. 
 
 Q. BOave you no recollectioini? A. I say I don't remember. 
 
 Q. I ask you if yoiu have no recollecitloin,? A. Noi; I havei no 
 recoil eetion. 
 
 Q. Did you have al bank aociount when you were in the straw 
 paper biusiaess? A. I presume so, 
 
 Q. Don't you remember? A. I don't knioiw; my partner looks 
 after that end of it. 
 
 Q. Who is your partner? A. His name is Blinn. 
 
 Q. Isi it a firm? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What is the style of i*? A. Piayn & Blinn. 
 
 Q. Is it still in existence? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the firm' keeps a bank account? A. I presume they do; 
 I don't pay much attention to it myself; I haven't seen the mills 
 in four or five months. 
 
 Q. I am asking you about the bank account; dton't you know 
 whether the firm of Payn & Blinn, of whiich you are a memher, 
 keeps a bank acconnt? A. I presume they dlo, but don't know. 
 
 Q. How long have yora been a member of that firm? A. I 
 don't know ; I should think for two or three or four years. 
 
 Q. Can you tell whether it is two or three or four years? A. 
 No; I could not. 
 
 Q. You can give us no idea? A. Na 
 
 Q. You are sure it is as imiuch ajs two? A. I should think soi. 
 
 Q. But not sure? A. I should think it was. 
 
 Q. You are pretty sure about that? A. Yes; pretty sure. 
 
 Q. You are sure itt isi not niore than four? A. I should not 
 think it was. 
 
 F. 59 
 
466 
 
 Q. Pi^etty sure aboutt tiiat? A. Yesj pretty sure. 
 
 Q. Where is the office of the firm? A. At the mills. 
 
 Q. In Chatham? A. In Chatham. 
 
 Q. What banks are there in Chatham? A. There is not but 
 one there. 
 
 Q. What is that? A. That is the State Bank, of Chatham. 
 
 Q. You don't know whetihieii the firm keeps an account there? 
 A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. Did you never see a check of the firm? A. No. 
 
 Q. Yoiu never saw a check of the firm? A. I don't remieiaber 
 of ever seeing one. 
 
 Q. And never saw a check-book of the firm? A. I don't re- 
 member of ever seeing one. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see the books or accounts of the firm? A. I 
 never have. 
 
 Q. What part do you take in the firm's business? A. I don't 
 pay any attention to it whatever. 
 
 Q. You take no part in it? A- Mr. Blinn runs the bustuess. 
 
 Q. What is the name of your partner? A. Blinn. 
 
 Q. Mr. Blinn runs the business? A. He does. 
 
 Q. And you take no active part in it? A Noi, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you the capitalist of the flrm? A. Well, I have put 
 up some money in it; we have tO' have money to run it. 
 
 Q. You have to put up some of the money? A. Whenever he 
 asks me for any money I have usually given it to' him, if I had it. 
 
 Q. By check? A. No. 
 
 Q, Bills? Yes. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have a bank account when you were in the 
 broken stone business? A. That is a stock company; I am a 
 stockholder and one of the directors. 
 
 Q. What is the style of that company? A. It is the Hudson 
 Broken Stone C^Mnpany, with a capital of $490,000. 
 
 Q. And you are a stockholder? A. I am. 
 
 Q. And how much stock of that company have you? A. Well, 
 I think it is abont .|60,000. 
 
 Q. That company keeps a bank account, of course? A. I pre- 
 sume so. 
 
 Q. You don't know? A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see a check of that company ? A. I have not ; 
 I have never got a dividend. 
 
 Q. You were one of the original contributors to the stock? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long ago? A. I suppose five or six years ago; I don't 
 rememiber just when. 
 
 Q. DM yoiu contribhite $60,000 to the stock? A. Something 
 like that. 
 
4G7 
 
 Q. Is the stock at par? A. It was wortli a good deal more 
 than par two or three years ago. , 
 
 Q. Mj\ question was not as to the value of the stock; my 
 question was as to whether you took the stock at par? A. Oh, 
 yes. 
 
 Q. What is the newspaper which you are so unfortunate as 
 to own ? A. It is known as the Chatham Eepnbliean. 
 
 Q. You are the sole owner? A. No; I own a majority of the 
 stock. 
 
 Q. That is a stock company, also'? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the style or the corporate name '^f that company? 
 A. I think it is the Chatham Publishing Company. 
 
 Q. Does that company keep a bank account? A. I presume so. 
 
 Q. You don't know? A. Well, I am quite sure they do, but I 
 won't swear they do. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see a check of that company? A. I don't 
 nemember of having seen a check; I rather think I did, too, come 
 to think so. 
 
 Q. How long ago? A. Perhaps a week ago, or two or three 
 weeks. 
 
 Q. Did you have money deposited of that company? A. No; I 
 gave a man $500 and he gave me a check for $300 ; he was $200 
 short, and wanted the money. 
 
 Q. That is the only connection you have had with the bank 
 account of that establishment? A. It may have been; I can't 
 tell ; it has been established six or eight years. 
 
 Q. Who are the officers of that company? A. I think a man 
 named Blink is the president of it, and Beebe is the secretary 
 and treasurer. 
 
 Q. Did you have a bank account when you were in the tin 
 business? A. Yes; I did. 
 
 Q. Well, how long ago was that? A. Well, I think I was first 
 interested in that in about 1885. 
 
 Q. And yon kept a bank account thien? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. How long did you keep that — down to how late a date? 
 A. I think perhaps a couple of years ago. 
 
 Q. Until a coaiple of years ago? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. A personal bank account? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. In what bank? A. There was a bank account of the com- 
 pany, but I don't know where that was; mjy account was kept 
 in the National Bank of the Republic. 
 
 Q. In the city of New York? A. Ym. 
 
 Q. And that account was closed a couple of years ago? A. I 
 think so. 
 
 Q. Since that time you have kept no account? A. I have not. 
 
468 
 
 Q. And all the business that you do, you do' with bills? A. 
 Well, no; I don't. 
 
 Q. Well, all the money business you do? A. If you gave me 
 a check, I would he doing bueiness with a check. 
 
 Q. When you receive checks from your employers — I suppose 
 you do, do you not — you receive checks from your employers in 
 regard to this legislative business? A. Y^Si, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you. do with thiem? A. I suppose I get money for 
 them. 
 
 Q. Haive them cashed over the counter? A. Possibly. 
 
 Q. Well, do you? A. Well, I do sonaietrtnies. 
 
 Q. Well, the money that youi get for them you carry in ;v'our 
 pocket until you have oiocasion to use it? A. YeSi 
 
 Q. Do you ever deposit it anywhere? A. No. 
 
 Q. Db you never avail yourself of a friend's bank account to 
 deposit it? A. Never. 
 
 Q. How large amounts of money do you carry in your pocket? 
 A. Well, any that I happen to have. 
 
 Q. That does not give me very much information, Mr. Payn, 
 about it. A. I don't see how you can get any better. 
 
 Q. I can not unless you tell me. A. I could not tell you, for I 
 don't know; I carry any that I happen to have. 
 
 Q. Aire you engaged irn any business now, or have you been 
 during this year, except those that you have mentioned? A. Not 
 that I know of. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say that you never had a dividend from 
 the straw paper business — never have received anything from 
 that business? A. Well, I said in two years. 
 
 Q. Or from the broken stone business? A. No. 
 
 Q. Or from the newspaper? A. No. 
 
 Q. The tin business is ended? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You sunk $120,000 in that, I think you said? A. There- 
 abouts. 
 
 Q. And you are engaged in no other business? A. No. 
 
 Q. And have not been for how long a time? A. Well, I havie 
 not been for the last two years, sure. 
 
 <J. Then for the last two years you have had no otiher business 
 than attending at the sessions of the Legislature and looking 
 after legislation for persons who employed you, is that right? 
 A. I think it is about right. 
 
 Q. That has been the sole source of income that you have had? 
 A. Well, T should think so. 
 
 Q. Have you received as much as $10,000 from single employ- 
 ers who have employed you about legislative business in Albany? 
 A- I don't think I ever did. 
 
469 
 
 i4. Didn't you receive |10,000 from the Erie Bailway Company? 
 A. Oh, yes; I received |10,000 from Mr. Gould and Mr. Thompson. 
 
 Q. Is that the largest sum ttmat you ever received in connec- 
 tion with, legislative busiaess? A. The very largest 
 
 Q. Mr. Payn, you received, you say, |10,000 from the Erie 
 Railway Company in 1868? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In connection with the bill to legalize the issue of $10,000,000 
 of Erie railway bonds? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Prom whom did yon receive that |10,000? A. I received 
 15,000 from Mr. Thompson and $5,000 from Mr. Gould. 
 
 Q. Where did you receive the f 5,000 from Mr. Thompson? A. 
 In New York. 
 
 Q. Where did you receive the |5,000 from Mr. Gould? A. At 
 the Delavan House. 
 
 Q. Which did you receive first? A. That in New York. 
 
 Q. You received |5,000 from' Mr. Thompson in New York and 
 aifterward |5,000 more from Mr. Gould here in Albany? A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. How long a period intervened between the two payments? 
 A. Well, 1 received the |5,000 from Mr. Thompson before I left 
 New York to come up here with Mr. Gould, and I received the 
 |5,000 from Mr. Gould after the bill was passed. 
 
 Q. How long after you received the |5,000 from Mr. Thompson? 
 A. Well, I haven't tie slightest idea,, Mir. Eoioit; I don't know 
 how long it took toi pass the bill. 
 
 Q. I will ask you if you remember thiils testimony which I will 
 read from the Senate diociumeintsi and ask to have it go into the 
 evidence; I reaid from pages 136 and 137 of the testimony of 
 Mr. Jay Gould^ of New York, before the Senate committee: 
 " Q. Do you know Louis F. Payn, a harbor master in New York? 
 A. I have met him; I never knew anything of Tijiim. Q. Did you 
 meet him. here in Albany? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know how 
 much money he had for his senvioesi or for any piurpoBe while he 
 was here? A. AJl I knowi about is, that he came up to me with 
 a very strong letter from some parties in New York, and he 
 represented that he had been here when the first Erie bill was 
 up — the one that was defeated — anidl hie repiresented that he 
 came up the last time, and had done a good deal of service, and 
 I paid him |5,000; very soon afterward I found that before 
 he came here he had already been paid $5,000, making 
 $10,00i0 in all; he came to me with a very long story, 
 to the effect thalt he had not been paid anything; 
 the next day I got a letter from New York, stating that they had 
 sent up this man, whia irepresented that he could do great things^ 
 and the letter said at the bottom, ' Pay him moithing; he has been 
 compensated;' I hadl already paid him $5,000 the day before I 
 
470 
 
 got the leitter, and saw tha* I liald! been swindled. Q. Did he 
 profess, that lie could contnol or limfluence itihe vote of amy 
 Sematom? A. He representied, like all these fellows, that he had 
 great influence ; I didn't take (much stock in it Q. Did he speak 
 with reference to the SenartJor from, his district? A. Yes; he said 
 he was very powerful there. Q. You ascertarilned trmni inquiry, I 
 suppose, that that Senaitor wasi opposed to the bill? A. I knew 
 he wais lopposed to it all the time; I didn't believe Mr. Palmer was 
 a man who could be influenced by him; still, I didu^t want any 
 divilsiotQ with this man; I thought it was a good deal bietter to 
 smooth Tiim over and let him believe that he could dO' just what 
 he said, though I didn't at amy time believe that he could." 
 
 Q. Were you present when Mr. Gould gave that testimony? 
 A. I was not. 
 
 Q. Do you remember his giving it? A. I do niortl 
 
 Q. Do you know that he gave it? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you never read the tesisiknony on this investigation? 
 A. I don't remiember' reading the testimany at all. 
 
 Q. You testdtfled upon that investigation, did you not? A. I dii 
 
 Q. Did you testify as follows: " Q. Were you here last winter 
 when the bill known as the Erie bill was pending befoope the 
 Legislarbure? A. I was. Q. In ithe employment of the ddirectors 
 of the Erie Railway Ckwupamy? A. Yes, sir. Q. Por what pur- 
 pose were you eanployed? A. In the passage of the bill. Q. Do 
 you mean to aid in the passage of the bill? A. Yes, sir. Q. In 
 what way? A. In amy and every legitimate way. Q. What 
 does that mean? A. To talk witth and bring amy pressure to 
 bear thait I might upon any member of Assembly, or amy Senaitor. 
 Q. What do you mean by pressure? A, Well, to talk with and 
 convince them that the bill was right, and should be passed, amd 
 if I knew of anybody that I thought would have tafluence with 
 tbiem, to see thait they were here, and use their influence. Q. Did 
 you receive money for that purpose? A. For my services do 
 you mean? Q. To aid in passinig the bill? A. I received moniey 
 for my services." 
 
 Q. Ddid you so testify? A. If you read that correctly I 
 presume I did; haven't any doub^t aibtout it. 
 
 Q. I read from the record on page 93? A. I have no doubt 
 that it lis right 
 
 Q. I read again from Senaite document 52, of 1869 (aifter 
 referring to the money that was paid to you): "Q. Did you 
 receive money from, Jay Grould, also? A. I did. Q. For sfiimilar 
 services? A. Ftor services iln the Senate bUl. Q. How! muct 
 money did you receive from Jay Gould? A. I refuse to answer 
 that. Q. Did you not receive in all the sum of |10,000? A. I 
 
471 ■ j 
 
 Q. Do yoTi remember so testifying? A. I shiould presume likely 
 you read it correctly. 
 
 Q. Ddjd you refuise to tell tlie ciommjittee toiw muiGh! you. receiyed 
 at that time? A. I should tkink very likely I didL 
 
 Q. Wiky did you, refuse? A. Beoanise I didia't think they had 
 any right to ask the question, — for the same reason I refuse to 
 answer your question to-nigjtt 
 
 Q. I read again from the testimony on pages 96 and 97: 
 " Q. What services did you actually render in promoting the 
 passage of that bill in the Senate? A. I can not tell. Q. You 
 say yiQw talked with no Senator except Palmer, and that you 
 immediately ascertained from him that he was opposed to the 
 bill? A. Yes, sir. Q. In what way did you render any service 
 in procuring the passage of that bill in the Senate? A. For» 
 instanioe if I thought there was a man that could influence a 
 certain Senator. Q. State the man? A. I don't know that I can 
 specify any case. Q. Oau you specify any man whose assist- 
 ance you obtained to influence any Senator? A. l^o particular 
 Senator. Q. Any particular man whose assistance you ob- 
 tained to influence Senators or a Senator? A. I could 
 name several men that I talked with, and they promised 
 me that they would do what they could in aid of the bill. 
 Q. Name them? A. Captain Grodard. Q. He is captain of 
 the port of New York? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who else? A. A 
 William Smelt, a harbor master. Q. Who else? A. Wm. Ash- 
 man. Q. Who was he? A. I don't know what his occupation 
 is, but he is a Eiepublican and ran for the Senate last fall. Q. 
 Where does he live? A. In New York. Q. Does he hold any 
 offtce? A. I don't know. Q. Is he not in the tax commissioner's 
 office? A. I don't know. Q. Who else? A. Hon. Samuel W. 
 Carpenter, of Columbia county. Q. What is he? A. A lawyer. 
 Q. Where does he live? A. At Kinderhook. Q. Anybody 
 else? A. John Cadman. Q. Who is he? A. A lawyer at Chat- 
 ham Four Corners. Q. Who else? A. I don't think of any one 
 else now. Q. Were these men, or either of them, employed to 
 influence any particular Senator? A. No, sir. Q. Did they re- 
 ceive from you any of the money you had from Gould or Thomp- 
 son ? A. No, sir. Q. Did you render any services besides speak- 
 ing to those men you have mentioned in securing influence for 
 the passage of the Erie bill? A. I don't know that I did." 
 
 Q. Do you remember of testifying so? A. No; I do not. 
 
 Q. Well it appears in, this record that you did so testify? A. 
 I have no doubt if you say so. 
 
 Q. It was true was it? A. It was true if I stated it. 
 
 '• Q. How much were you engaged, in all, at Albany, for this 
 Erie railway company last session? A. I should think perhaps 
 
472 
 
 three or four weeks. Q. Where were you stoppiug here? A. 
 At the Stanwix Hall. Q. Any more than four weeks? A. I 
 think no't; I think it was four weeks. Q. Nor less than two? 
 A. I should think between three and four." 
 
 Q. Do you remember so testifying? A No; I don't. 
 
 "Q. How was your titae spent, while here, in the business? 
 A. A portion of the time was spent here in the Senate chamber. 
 Q. How large a portion? A. I can not tell; I think I was here 
 every day, almost." 
 
 Q. Can you tell, Mr. Payn, anything else for that |10,000 be- 
 sides what is specifled in this testimony here?. A. No; I don't 
 remember anything else; it was fresh in my memory then, but I ■ 
 have forgotten a good deal about it now. 
 
 . Q. You can not now tell anything you did for the money except 
 what you have testified in this testimony I have read? A. No; 
 I don't rememiber. 
 
 Q. What was your business in 1868? A. I wasi harbor master, 
 as you will find by reading a little more in that book. 
 
 Q. So I see ; what was the salary or pay of the harbor master? 
 A. I don't remember anything about it. 
 
 Q. About 1350 a month? A. Possibly. 
 
 Q. Were you engaged in any other busiuess? A. Well, I was 
 playing the street pretty high, if you call that a business. 
 
 Q. That is, speculating in Wall street? A. Yes; I have done 
 quite a good deal of that in my life. 
 
 Q. And you, being harbor master, with a salary of about $350 
 a month, came to Albany and spent between three and four 
 weeks and talked with tihe persons whom you mentioned here, 
 and received |10,000 from the Erie Eailway Company; is that 
 the statement as it is? A. Well, I should presume likely, if it 
 says so there. 
 
 Q. And you didn't use any portion of that money for amy one 
 else? A. How is that? 
 
 Q. You didn't use any poi-Uion of that |10,000 for any one else? 
 A. I don't know hardly what you mean by that 
 
 Q. You kept the. whole |10,000 yourself? A. If that is what 
 you mean; but I use my money for most anybody that I think 
 needs it when I have got it. 
 
 Q. I will ask you again why you refused to tell the committee 
 how much' money you did receive from the Eirie railroad? 
 A. Why I refused; is. that the question? 
 
 Q. Yes. A. Well, I think I said that it was a matter of my 
 own private busihiess, and that the committee had no right 
 to inquire into it. > 
 
 Q. Was it not, Mr. Payn, a fact, that you knew that you could 
 noft and did not explain to the committee any semces; any 
 
473 
 
 honest services, which, you had rendered that were adequate to 
 account for the compensation of |10,000? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You thought your services were fully woi^ that? A. I 
 did. 
 
 Q. Do you rememiber this? I read from, page 99 of this recoird: 
 •Q. Did you consider your services of three or four weeks worth 
 110,000? A. No; I did not." Do you remember that? A. No; 
 1 dont remember it. 
 
 Q. If it is here, you testified to it? A. Very likely. 
 
 Q. I will continue to read: " Did they consider it worth .f 10,000? 
 A. I don't know what they considered. Q. How much do you 
 consider your services worth? A. Perhaps, I ought to state in 
 justice to myself, tlie conversation that I had with another party; 
 you have not got his name, but if you want me to tell it — I sup- 
 pose you want me to tell everytMng I kmow, and that is what I 
 want. By Senator Folger: Then, why don't you tell; you kmow 
 what you got? A. If J am obliged to tell it, I will; I am no law- 
 yei", Q. You say youi want to tell all you know; why don't you 
 do it? A. There are three or four men asking me questions, and 
 I want a little time. Q. It is mot difficult for an honest man to 
 tell what he knows." Do youi remember tha.t? A. No; I don't. 
 
 Q. Do yoiu i-tauember Senator Folger saying that to you? A. 
 No; I don't. 
 
 Q. If he said it, did you tell hoiw much money you received 
 from the Erie company? A. 1 don't know. 
 
 Q. I will read again from the report of this investigation, page 
 102: "By Mr. Folger (to you, Mr. Payn) : Did you claim to 
 ITiompsion or Grould, that you could not affect anybody's vote? 
 A. Yea, sir. Q. Why did they employ you at siuch an extrava- 
 gant rate that you dare not tell of it? A. I don't know. Q|. 
 Had they ever known you before? A. They had known me for 
 a year at their office. Q. You made no pretensions to any par- 
 ticular influence, to them? A. No, sir. Q. Had you ever been 
 here before to further their bills? A. No, sir. Q. It was your 
 first appearance as a lobby-man? A. Yes, sir. Q. And yet 
 without any experience on your part, or any pretension to being 
 able to affect anybody's vote, they paid you Bach a sum that you* 
 are afraid to tell of it? A. I will not say that. Q, Then, why 
 don^t you tell of it; you say you made tihem no pretensions of 
 power to affect anybody's vote? A. You asked me, if I made 
 any pretensions." 
 
 I take up and read again on page 102 : " Q. And they paid you 
 such a price, that yoni are ashamed to tell of it? A. I didn't say 
 so; I gave you my reason. Q. What was the reason? A. That 
 it was my own private business; it had no connectilon with any 
 
 F. 60 
 
474 « 
 
 bribery. Q. You have told us what your salary as harbor maJSh 
 ter was; that certainly was your own private businesis? A. I 
 answered that out of courtesy. Q. And you decline to answer 
 this question, ont of courtesy? A. I decline to answer it, because 
 I 'don't wish to tell. Q. Will you tell me why yoiui don't wish to 
 tell? A. I don't think you have a right to ask me to tell. Q. 
 Will you say, on your oath, that that is the only reason you do 
 not answer? A. That is one reason. Q. What is the other 
 reason ? A. That it is my own private matter, that this investi- 
 gating committee have no right to inquire intO' it. Q. Any other 
 reason? A. No, sir; no other reason; not because t^iere is any 
 oormption connected with itt, or any dishonest aict about it. Q. 
 I have not said there was any corruption, but you merely decline 
 to answer, because it is your own private business? A. Yes, sir. 
 Q. By Mr. Mchols: Who gave you the most money — Thompson 
 oir'Grould? A. I decline to answer that. Q. For the same reason 
 you gave Mr. Folger? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Any oither reason? 
 A. No other. Q. In what form was the money paid you, cur- 
 rency, checks, or drafts? A. Greenbaoksi. Q. By Mr. Folger: 
 How much more did they pay you than your isalairy asi harbor 
 master? A. I refuse to answer that. Q. Was it more than 
 your salary as harbor master? A. Yes, sir. Q. How much 
 miore? A, I refuse to. answer thiat Q. Was it more than 
 yoiur isalary as harbor master, and the stock they took oflf 
 from your hands at 78? A. I reifuse tO' answer that. Q. You 
 have just said that you would tell all you knew, and you have 
 also just said that you were an hones* man? A. I be. Q. Why 
 don't you answer that question; if you are sensible that you 
 have not been guilty of any corruption, or any effort to corrupt, 
 and are an honest man, and are willing to tell all youi know, why 
 don't you? A. I will svi^ear to all that you have stated. Q. Still 
 you decline to tell? A. Yes, sir; from the fact that I know 
 that there was no improiper use made oif that money, that it was 
 for me individually, and that it was to go toi nobody else; that 
 was the imderstanding; that it was to pay for my individual ser- 
 vices here, and not to pay to any Senator, or any Member of 
 Assembly, a dollar of the money. Q. Granted all that; but why 
 not tell the amount? A. I don't see that anybody is to be bene- 
 fited by my telling. Q. You expect when this testimony is piib- 
 li'shed, and the fact is seen that you refuse to answer this ques- 
 tion, people will believe you are an honest man? A. I expect 
 people to believe me an hiomest man' who know me. Q. But a 
 great many will read this who don't know you; some Senators 
 will read it who don't know you, and when your name comes up 
 for reappointment they may draw some inference from your 
 
f 475 "^ 
 
 refusal to answer? A. Then, I shall liave to suffer. Q. I think 
 you will suffer from it, for it looks suspicious for you to answer 
 every question but that." Do you remember tbat testimony? 
 A. No; I don't remember it. 
 
 Q. Or any of it? A. Some things sound a little familiar, but 
 I don't remember very much about it. 
 
 Q. Do you remember Mr. Folger saying this to you: "You 
 have said enough already to show that the amount you received 
 was a large sum, and that you are afraid to mention it, lest some 
 disparaging inference will be drawn. By Mr. Nichols: Q- The 
 sum was so large that everybody wUl believe that it was not for 
 your individual services. A. I don't know what to infer from 
 that remark. Q. You gave the use of your time, which is worth, 
 only fromrfSOO to |400. a month? A. Suppose I did; I presume 
 tbe Senators will work here for a few dollars a day, when their 
 business may be worth thousands of dollars to them. Mr. Fol- 
 ger. — That is just exactly the reverse of your case; you came 
 here to work for three or four weeks; and you say you have got 
 from tbose three or four weeks' service more than your whole 
 year's compensation would be as harbor master, and yet you 
 expect that people will infer that the sum was received for 
 honest services." Do you remember that? A. No; I don't re- 
 memiber that. 
 
 Mr. Root. — I ask thait 'what I have read from this record be 
 taken as a part of the record evidence in this case. 
 
 Mr. Eaines. — -So much as is included in the questions put to 
 this witness. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — So much as he has read from the record. 
 
 Q. Again, subsequently to this examination which I have read, 
 Mr. Thompson and Mr. Gould were put upon the stand and testi- 
 fied to how much th(;y paid you? A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. They didn't testify to what they paid you at the time vou 
 were examined? A. What makes you say that? 
 
 Q. As a question. A. Well, I don't know; my impression was 
 that they were examined before I was. 
 
 Mr. Root. — I ask to have taken down from this record a note 
 of the examination of Mr. Payn, which begins at page 93 of 
 Senate document 52, of 1869. The examination of Mr. Jay Gould 
 was taken upon a date subsequent to that of Mr. Payn, and 
 begins at page 104. 
 
 Mr. Raines.— You are very unfortunate, Mr. Root. Mr. Jay 
 Gould's examination commenced at page 27. 
 
 Mr. Root. — The examination of Mr. Gould which relates to fhis 
 subject, and the examination of Mr. Thompson, which relates to 
 this subject, are at page 140. 
 
476 
 
 Mr. Eaines. — I beg your pardam, but Mir. Gould's examination 
 was very extemslYei extending from page 27 to page 36. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Was lie afterward recalled? 
 
 Mr. Root — On Mr. Gould's original examination this subject 
 was not toucted upon. It was not known of. Senator Palmer 
 liad not as.certauied what was going on. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — I object to this stuff going on the record. 
 
 (The chairman directed the comments of Mr. Root toi be 
 stricken out.) 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — I would suggest that you put the whole 
 book in evidence, and refer to the portions that you refer to. 
 
 Mr. Root. — Is there any objection to the statement going upon 
 the record that the only testimony otfi Mr. Gonld) upon the subject 
 relating to the payment to Mr. Payn is in the testimony th.a,t 
 begins at page 104? M thait is not correct Mr. Eainjes can exam- 
 ine it and say so. 
 
 Senator O'Connor.-^ If that is a fact. 
 
 Mr. Root. — That is a fact. 
 
 Q. Now, Mr. Payn, why do you refuse to tell now either the 
 amounts you hare receitved for yonir services in and about the 
 Legislature during the past two years or the persons who have 
 employed you? A. I am ladvised by my counsel that that is not 
 a proper question iamd that I am "not obliged to answer it, and 
 that is m,y own opinion,— any more than you would be obliged 
 to answer what your client had confided to you, or what he had 
 paid youi for your servicies. 
 
 Q. What are the services which! you rendered to these em- 
 ployers? A. Well, if I thought their\ bills were good bills and 
 should paiss, I might advocate them; if some fellow was up here 
 with a strike bill against my friends I might try to beat that bill. 
 
 Q. Are these employers of yours corpoiratiianisior private, natural 
 persons? A. I decline to answer that question, for the same 
 reason. 
 
 Q. You saiy that if the bill® of your employers were good bills 
 you. might advocate them? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And if you think their bills are good bills you do advocate 
 them, I suppose? A. I dot 
 
 Q. In what way do youi advocate them? A. Oh, I talk with 
 members of Assembly or Senators about them. 
 
 Q. And where do you talk with members of the Assembly or 
 Senate? A. Wherever I happen to meet them, perhaps in the 
 cars or the hotel or in the Senate chiamber or in lie corridors or 
 any place. 
 
 Q. You make it a regular practice to attend in thte Capitol 
 building at the time of the sessions of Senate and Assembly? A. 
 Yes- 
 
Q. And to engage mjembem of tile Senate and Assembly in con- 
 versation? A. If I see fit and they wiamt to talk with, me. 
 
 Q. Th,e question is whether yon. make a regular pnactice of 
 that, — oif coming to the Capitol, building at the time of the 
 session of the Senate and Assemibly ? A. I ami very oftenhere. 
 
 Q. It is rather a rule, is it not, than an exception? A. Rather 
 a rule. 
 
 Q. Yes; rather than the exception ? A. Well, if I have nothing 
 else to do, I come here. 
 
 Q. You are here nearly every; day, arte yoiu not, when the Senate 
 and Assembly are in session ? A. Well, that is pretty broad. 
 
 Q. We will limit a little, if it requires to be limited? A. If I 
 was in Albany, I would be apit to be here or in the Assembly. 
 
 Q. And is the mloist of your) advocacy of tlh'e bills of your em- 
 ployers done in that way, — by oon versing with Senators amd 
 Assemblymen' here in the Oapitol building? A. I don't know of 
 any other way. 
 
 Q. When there was a bill which you cionsid'ered or advised was 
 adversie to the interests of your employers, what did youi do 
 about them? A. I try tx) pnotect the interests of my employers, 
 whichever way iit may be. 
 
 Q. In what way do you endeavor to protect their interests in 
 referemee to such bills? A. To what bills. 
 
 Q. To bUla whidi you are tnfoirmed by thlem are adverse to thein 
 interests? A. If I thought they were not; on the right side I 
 would oppiose the bills. 
 
 Q. In what way do you oppose the bills? A. Well, by talking 
 with members op Senators about them. 
 
 Q. Yoiu: are not a lawyer, Mr. Payn? A. No. 
 
 Q. Dk> you ever make arguments before oommittees? A. I 
 never have. 
 
 Q. And never before amy committee of the Senate oa* Assembly? 
 A. I never have. 
 
 Q. YoiuJ* advocacy of the bills is confined to' private conversa- 
 tion? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You dton't use any improper influence? A. I never did. 
 
 Q. But yoiu don't use any mwney? A. I never did. 
 
 Q. All the money you received from your employers you 
 received for yourself and retained for yourself, for your own ufie? 
 A. For no other purpose. 
 
 Q. There is notthtng about your' employers which is in any way 
 dishonest or derogatoiry either to your employers or yourself? 
 A. No, sir; neither. 
 
 Q. Th'en why should youi not tell who they aire? A. For the 
 reasons I have given you. 
 
478 ' i 
 
 Q. Those reasons seem nathieir to be reaisons wliy yoiu think you 
 can't be compelled to tell; why are you nofti wdllling toi tell who 
 your employers are? A. I smppiosei I teel about it just the 
 same as you would' about your client'si business. 
 
 Q. Oan you give any reaison' why this business of yoiuirs shotuld 
 be ioovemed with siecrecy, — why the persons with whomi you are 
 engaged in this business should be kept concealed? A. It is 
 their private business and mine. 
 
 Q. Can't you give amy other reason than tharti why this hoiiww- 
 able business should -be kept under concealment? A. I don't 
 know of any reason. 
 
 Q. When you went upon the witness stand, Mr. Payn, you went 
 with the intention of recoTinting to the committee the history of 
 your political and business life for the last 25 years on more, did 
 you not? A. Well, I expected somebody to iaquire aibout it. 
 
 Q. You expected Mr. Haines toi afford you an opportunity of 
 telling about your business, did you not? A. I thought either he 
 or yon would. , 
 
 Q. And why do yoiu consider that the fact of the matter regard- 
 ing which I am inquirilng is your private business, should be the 
 reason for not stating? A. For the same reason that I gave you. 
 
 Q. You came here to state your business to the' ciommittiee, 
 didn't you? A. I came hetre to answer your questions. 
 
 Q. You umdentook voluntarily to tell th^e ciommittee about your 
 priivate business n0w, and for many years past, did you not? A. 
 Well, I answered any questions that were put to me, in regard to 
 it. 
 
 (Stenographer reads question.) 
 
 Q. Please answer that now; if you will attend to the 
 stenographer's reading of that question, I think you will see 
 what I want? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Why then do youi retf use to state for whom, you are employed 
 ih and aboiut tM!s legislative business upon the gi-onnd that tKt 
 is yonr private business? A. It is just as much the private 
 business of my employer as it is mine; I don't propose to answer 
 the question. 
 
 Q. There is nothing about it that would be injuiriioius to your 
 eomployer, is there? A. No, isir. 
 
 Q. Nothinig that would reflect upon your employer in any way? 
 ATNo, sir; not a bit; all men who have employed me, have 
 employed me by the year. 
 
 Q. Upon a salary? A. Upon a salary. 
 
 Q. A stated salary? A. A stated salai^; it is not — 
 
 Q. Wait a minute? A. You asked mie if it is a stated salary; 
 I hadn't completed the answer. 
 
479 
 
 Q. 1 beg your pardon, Mr. Payn. A. I said, yes, sir; in all 
 oases, and it is in reference to the legisilation; what I mean to 
 say is: It makes no difference to me whether a bill they are 
 interested in passes or is beaten; I get my pay just the same. 
 
 Q. How many snch salaries do you receive? A. I couldn't tell 
 you. 
 
 Q. Are they too numerous? A. They are quite numerous. 
 
 Q. About how many? A. I can't tell you about how many. 
 
 Q. You can't give any idea of how many there are? A. No; 
 I could not; I might, upon reflection, probably. 
 
 Q. Twenty or 30? A. Oh, no; that would make a great deal 
 of money. 
 
 Q. A dozen? A. I should think six or eight. 
 
 Q. Six or eight regular salaries? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Six or eight annual salaries? A. Six or eight annual 
 salaries, work or play. 
 
 Q. To attend to legislation here at Albany? A. Well, here 
 and any other busi!ness that they may" have for me. 
 
 Q. What other business do you do for these persons who thus 
 employ you? A. Oh, there is a good many things that I might do. 
 
 Q. What are those things? A. I might be called to go on to 
 Washington. . . 
 
 ■Q. The question is, what are you employed to do? A. I am 
 simply to do anything that they may request me to do, within 
 reason. 
 
 Q. What do you do? A. Whatever they request me to. 
 
 Q. And what is that you do? A- Well, I am here now. 
 
 Q. Can you tell me anything that you do for any of these em- 
 ployers by yourself, except attend to legislation at Albany ? A. 
 Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. Please to tell me. A. I have been sent to Chicago; I have 
 been sent to Washington; and I have been sent to the Black 
 Hills, in Dakota. 
 
 Q. Who sent you to Chicago? A. I shan't answer the question. 
 
 Q. Who sent you to Washington? A. I decline to answer that. 
 
 Q. "Who sent you to the Black Hills? A. That I decline to 
 answer, for the same reason. 
 
 Q. You decline to tell anybody who employs you in any matter 
 whatever? A. Sir? 
 
 Q. Do you decline to tell anybody that employs you in any 
 matter whatever? A. I think it is proper that I should' decline. 
 
 Q. You do decline? A. Yes; I don't give away the business 
 of my employers ; I am not one of that kind. 
 
 Q. You are a safe man, do you mean? A. I think I ami con- 
 sidered safe. 
 
480 • ■ 
 
 Q. You have, I judge, from what you have said, Mr. Payn, con- 
 siderable political influence? A. Well, that might be so, and 
 might not; I would rather other people would judge of that. 
 
 Q. You prefer not to say about that, do yon; prefer not to say 
 whether you have or not? A. I don't know whetber you would 
 consider that I did or not. 
 
 Q. Are yoiu engaged in politics outside of your own county? 
 A. Yes; especially in your county. 
 
 Q. Yon have a residence in New York county? A. How is 
 that? 
 
 Q. You' have a plaice of residence in New YorK city? A. I 
 have rooms there; I have had for a dozen years. 
 
 Q. And you are specially engaged in politics there? A^ 
 Especially, no; generally. 
 
 Q. I thought you said something about especially employed 
 there? A. Oh, no. 
 
 Q. Your attention to politics is general throughout the State? 
 A. And it sometimes reaches further than the State. 
 
 Q. The entire country? A. I think it has, sometimes. 
 
 Q. What is the part which you took in politics in the city of 
 New York? A. Well, I am a Eepublican either there or here; 
 I am not a refoirmer. 
 
 Q. Tell me what part you took in politics in the city of New 
 York? A. What part I took in it? 
 
 Q. Yes. A. I advised last fall against the nomination of 
 Strong. 
 
 Q. Who did yon advise? A. Everybody that I met. 
 
 Q. The part you took is that of the adviser's? A. Yes; I don't 
 vote there. 
 
 Q. You don't vote there? A. No. 
 
 Q. You say you never liked Mr. Quigg? A. I never did. 
 
 Q. And that you have opposed his political aspiratioas? A. I 
 have. 
 
 ,Q. Always? A. Always. 
 
 Q. From the beginning? A. From the beginning. 
 
 Q. You say you protested against the nomination of Mr. "Quigg 
 for Congress? A. I did. 
 
 Q. Tk) whom did you protest? A. I protested to Senator Piatt 
 and other leading men in New York. 
 
 Q, But without effect? A. Sir? 
 
 Q. But without effect? A. Without effect, I am. sorry to say. 
 
 Q. Do you ordinarily take part in the consiultations and con- 
 ferences regarding the nomination of candidates for office in the 
 city of New York? A. Yes; 1 have had considerable to dd 
 with it. 
 
481 
 
 Q. Ttiat don't quite answier tlie question; thie question was, 
 wliethier you ordinarily take part iu conferences and consulta- 
 tions? A. Well, I have, recently. 
 
 Q. For several years past? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You said isomething, upon your direct examination, about 
 presuming that these papers that you have referred to — the affi- 
 davit of Van ValKenburgh and statement signed by Matthew! 
 Hale — would be found? A. I have not any doubt about that. 
 
 Q. Then they have been found? A. IsTo; I say no; I don't 
 know ; they may hiave been found. 
 
 Q, You have no information that they have been found? A. 
 No ; I have no inf oirmation that they have been found. . 
 
 Q. Do you know h.oiw Mr. Eaine® was led into the mistake 
 (which, of course, was a maistai?e, an unintentional mistake) of say- 
 ing to the committee, that the papers had been found and thai] 
 they were on their way here? A. I don't know anything about 
 what Mr. Raines said ; I wasn't here ; you know I ran away last! 
 night, accor'ding to the statement of somebody. 
 
 Q. You had told him that these papers had been found? A}, 
 No. 
 
 Q. You had not told anybody that they had been found? A. 
 No; I didn't ever know that they were lost. 
 
 Q. And nobody had told yon that they had been found? A. 
 No. 
 
 Q. Or telegraphed you that they had been found? A No; I 
 have got some telegrams in regard to it that I would submit to 
 you if you would like to have them; they will be found, I have 
 no dotibt. 
 
 Q. I understand you to say at the same time that you were 
 looking after the interests of your private employers here in 
 Albany you were- also looking after the interests of political 
 legislation; am T correct in that? A You are correct. 
 
 Q. And in the interests of the people with whom you are 
 politically assodated? A. In the interests of the Republican 
 party; I don't associate with anybody else." 
 
 Q. Do you coniihe your etl'orts to promote or oppose legisla- 
 tion to Republicans in the Senate and Assembly? A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Entirely? A.' Yes. 
 
 Q. You never endeavor to influence any Democrats in the Sen- 
 ate or Assembly? A. You are spealcing now of political legis- 
 lation ? 
 
 Q. No; you just said you never associated with anybody but 
 Republicans. A. I never associate with anybody but Republi- 
 cans on li'epublican questions; tbat is what I meant to be under- 
 stood. 
 
 ¥\ 61 ' 
 
'^; 482 
 
 Q. As I took thef note' of your statement you said that at the 
 same time you watched legislation in the interests of the people 
 with whom you were politically associated ; my question is, whom 
 you mean by the people with whom you were politically asBO- 
 elated? A. T mean any Eepublican. 
 
 Q. And you were engaged, then, not only in watching legis- 
 lation in the interests of priyate parties, but in watching legisla- 
 tion in the interest of any Republican? A. Any Eepublican? 
 
 Q. 'Yes. A. I said of the Eepublican party. 
 
 Q. In the interests of the Eepublican party? A. That is what 
 I said. 
 
 Q. Do you hold any ofQce in that party? A. I do not 
 
 Q. Has the party ever delegated to you in any way the func- 
 tion of watching legislation in its interests? A. No; it never has. 
 
 Q. Is this a voluntary service on your part? A. Entirely so. 
 
 Q. You receive no compensation for that? A. Oh, no. 
 
 Q. It is, possibly, useful to you in. enlarging your influence in 
 opposing and promoting measures in which your employers are 
 interested? A. That you say; I say no. 
 
 Q. You think it has no effect on that? A. No; I don't think 
 it has the slightest. 
 
 r Q. And you are here solely as a volunteer, and not upon the 
 request of any one? A. Not at the request of any one; I never 
 speak for myself; I only go for those measures that I believe are 
 beneficial to the Eepublican party; I don't hesitate to oppose the 
 others. 
 
 Q. And you do that, representing yourself alone, and out of 
 your regard for the party to which you belong? A. You have 
 stated it. 
 
 Q. In tiie conversation which you had with Mr. Quigg regard- 
 ing the oflScers' salary amendment, you said that a friend asked 
 you, as a personal favor, to have that amendment talten from the 
 bill? A. I said so. 
 
 Q. And that he asked you, and you at first declined; it was 
 then asked you as a personal favor, and you said that you would? 
 A.. I said so. 
 
 Q. "UTiem was that? A. Well, it was after the bill had passed 
 the Assembly and was here in the Senate; I can't tell dates or 
 days. 
 
 Q. You had no doubt of your power to do it? A. Well, I 
 thought as I had got the amendment put upon the bill, I thought 
 that I could persuade the committee to take it off; though I 
 never had an opportunity to do it. 
 
 Q. You say you procured the amendment to be drawn up; you 
 didn't draw it yourself? A. I didn't. 
 
i83 
 
 Q. Who did draw it? A. Senator Eaines, at my request. 
 
 Q. When, with reference to your giving tlie amendment to 
 Senator Botoertson, did Senator Raines draw it? A. Well, 1 
 think a few minutes before I gave it to Senator Eobertson. 
 
 Q. Do you know wliere lie drew it? A. Where he drew it? 
 
 Q. Yes. A. Well, I came in and foujid Mm in the Senate 
 library, and asked h.im who I could get to draw the amendment 
 to the bill, and he wanted to know what it was, and I told him, 
 and he said, "It won't take five minutes to draw that;" I said, 
 "Will you draw it;" and he said, "Yes, I will;" and he drew it, 
 a!nd I took it and handed it to Senator Eobertson. 
 
 Q. Do you hajppen iia remember where the interview took 
 place in which you handed this amieadment to Seniaitor Robeirtsoin? 
 A. I really can't tell whfe'thei' it, was in this chlamber or the 
 library; one or the other. 
 
 Q. And I think Senator Raines, Senator Robertson has said, 
 was presient at the intervitew? A. I can't tell whether he was or 
 not. 
 
 Q. Did this all haipjjeni on the same day? A. Within a short 
 time; right away. 
 
 Q. Senator Eobeirtson has testified that that amendment, when 
 handed to him by yioiu, was ai typerwritten paper; how did it get 
 on to the typewriter? A. I dlon't know; I suppose Senator 
 Raines got it typewritten!; I don't knovyj everything about it; I 
 don't iremembler. 
 
 Q. All that you had to do with' it was to state to Senator 
 Raines the substance (of what you 'wanted and he did the rest up 
 to the time he broiught it back to you) and you gave it to Senator 
 Eobertson? A. That is it as I recollect it. 
 
 Q. Had any one ever asked, yotu to ha.ve that amendment pre- 
 pared or placed' in the bill ? A. No ome on the earth. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any domversation. about it wfth amy one? 
 A. With no living creature except with Captain Bums; I didn't 
 tell him what I would undertake to do; I said I would look imto 
 the matter and after I oame here I concluded that that amend- 
 ment should be drawn and put on the bill, and have the bill 
 passed if I could have it passed. 
 
 Q. Do yoU! know how the bill came to be changed from; a bill 
 amending the ciomsolidatloni act to an independent bill? A. I 
 don't know anything about that. 
 
 Q. Do yoTi know how Senator Raines got the figures, the 
 amounts of salaries which he put in' there? A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. You didn't give them to Mm'? A. 1 don't thiink' I did; I 
 don't think I ever had them. 
 
484 ; 
 
 iQ. TPoii siknply said' to Mm yoiu wiamted the salaries raised? 
 A. I explained to Mm what I wiamted; I wanted some amenidmiemt 
 drawn up which wowld pmit the thing in shape so that the firemen 
 couM get what the law gawe tihem three o>v> four years ag6 in the 
 passage of a bill; but then it wals; left discretioiiary witih the 
 board of estimate and Eippoirtionment; they were limited between 
 a certain, figure and anoither figiure. 
 
 Q. Dijd yoTi refer him toi tih'e statute? A. I did mot. 
 
 Q. This was all iu the Benate library or in this Senate room, 
 and he sat down immiediately and drew the almemdment? A. I 
 think so; I went out; I oan't tell whether he ga^e it tO' mie that 
 day or i±.e next day. 
 
 Q. The interview ini which you gaire this aimendmjen't ta 
 Senator Roibertson was not on the same day or' about the same 
 time? A. I nerer had any talk with Senator Robertson until I 
 gave Mm the amendment, and I am. not sure how soooi' it was 
 after Eaiiies gave m.e the amendment affter it was drawn. 
 
 Q. You don't know whether it was the same day? A. I can 
 not tell tor sure. 
 
 Q. You don't know hotw long after Senator Eaines drew up the 
 amendtmienit it was? A. I am not certain. 
 
 Q. WhecD he gave itt to yoiu wais it in typewriting? A. When 
 he gave it to me it was just as I gave it to Stenatoir Biobertsom; I 
 could not tell whether ilt wa;s typewritt'en or not. 
 
 Q. It was in complete fbrm; it was not a draft? A. I didn't 
 read it; I didn't open it. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Is there ajnythimg you want to state, Mr. 
 Payn? 
 
 Mr. Payn. — Yes. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — Well, state it. 
 
 Mr. Payn. — I waint to state, ais he reads from, that report, that 
 Grould says something about his paying me f 5,000, and ThKMnpiaibm 
 having paid me |5,000 — I want to siayi that, afteri tMs investi- 
 gation was over, I retuimed to New York, and Mr. Gkxuld oame 
 to me and apologized foir what he had saild and gave me ai cheiek 
 for $10,000. 
 
 Q. In addition? A. In addition tO' what I had received; I 
 want to siay. that from that day until the day wiheh' Mr. Gould 
 died he was my very particular friend, and on several occasions 
 helped me to make a large amount of money. 
 
 Q. In speculation? A. Certainly; in 1881, dturing the contest 
 here that I had charge of, when we attempted to r'etum' Conk- 
 ling and Piatt, he advised me to buy Western Union: certiflcatesi 
 at the price they wei-e selling at, and I made over $90,000 in 
 three or four weeks; th'at is all. 
 
485 
 
 By Mr. Boot: 
 
 Q. Had you rendered any further services to Mr. Gould? A, 
 Had I rendered any further aeiTioesi? 
 Q. Yes. A. A great many. 
 
 By Mr. Eatnes: 
 
 Q. Between fhe taking of this testimony and the time he gare 
 you the $10,000 check, had you rendered any additional service? 
 A. Not any. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — One question I wish to ask Mr. Quigg. It isi 
 just one question! as to the time of meeting. I am not going 
 further than that. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — I will limit it to that question. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — ^Mr. Quigg, after John McOabe's death, did you 
 meet with Leary and George Norton in a saloon on the north- 
 west comer of Fourteenth street and Irving place at any time? 
 
 Mr. Quigg. — Well, I would not say. I won't locate the place. 
 It was a corner house. 
 
 Q. After McOahe's death? A. Yes; I think so^. 
 
 Q. Can you give me the date? A. No; I won't be positive that 
 it was after MoCalhe's death; but my impression is that it was. 
 
 Q." The Leary you mean is Dennis O'Leary? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Root. — The committee has not assumed, I suppose, to 
 decide the question as to whether Mr. Payn shall be required to 
 answer the questions which the committee have ordered him to 
 answer. 
 
 Mr. O'Connor. — They have assumed that the ruling, as made, 
 will cover them all. 
 
 Mr. Root. — The committee, I suppose, will keep oi)en the exam- 
 ination of Mr. Payn, and decide what course will be taken. The 
 committee has intimated that it will report to the Senate the con- 
 tempt committed by Mr. Payn, in refusing to answer the ques- 
 tions which he has been ordered to answer by the committee. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — We will report the fact, and let the Sen- 
 ate deitermine whether it was a contempt of the Senate or not. 
 As to what you read from the proceedings of the other inTesti- 
 gation, from the report., he seemed to have availed himself of the 
 same privilege. TVIhat wasi done about it? 
 
 Mr. Root. — They supplied the testimony afterward by the tes'- 
 timony of Gould. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — That would not clear the contempt if any 
 had been committed. I am not prepared to state how far the 
 Senate could compel him to answer. It would look to us that, 
 a^ a matter of law, Mr. Payn himself, having opened up that 
 
486 
 
 question, ttat it would be the right of tlie committee to require 
 him to be specific about it We have directed him to answer. 
 Whether or not that direction has been rightfully given isi a 
 question that requires an investigation. 
 
 Mr. Eo'Ot. — If the Senate should adjudge that Mr. Payn is in 
 contempt for not answering that question, I suppose an oppor- 
 tunity will be afforded him to purge himself of the contempt by 
 answering, and that the committee will keep open their proceed- 
 ings for that purpose in case the Senate so determines. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — When we report to the Senate, we will 
 take whatever direction they give. 
 
 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. 
 
 Depaetmjbvt of Justice, May 11, 1895. 
 
 Pursuant to the act of Congress of February 22, 1849, I hereby 
 certify that the annexed papers are a true copy of the original 
 letter, affidavit and certificate on file in this office. 
 
 In witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand, and 
 (Seal.) caused the seal of the Department of Justice to be 
 affixed, on the day and year first above written. 
 
 KIOHAED OLNEY, 
 
 Attorney- General. 
 STATE OF NEW YORK, ) ^^ . 
 Columbia Couittt, j 
 
 John W. Van Valkenburgh, being duly sworn, deposes and 
 says, that he resides in the city and county of Albany, and has 
 for 10 years last past. That in the year 1866 he was elected to 
 the State Legislature from the Second Assembly district of 
 Columbia county, where he then resided, and was again elected 
 to said Legislature from Albany county in 1873. 
 
 That he has for th.e last 20 years been personally acquainted 
 with Louis F. Payn, now United States marshal for the southern 
 district of New York. 
 
 That deponent has always been a Democrat, and strongly 
 opposed to Mr. Payn in politics, and more especially so in tiie 
 years 1867 and 1868. 
 
 That since his election in 186i6 he has frequented the sessions 
 of the Legislature until the present time. 
 
 That he was acting superintendent of the Albany and Susque- 
 hanna railroad fromj 1867 to 1872, and is now president of" the 
 Boston and Hoosac THinnel Railroad Company. That deponent 
 was a witness before the Erie railroad investigating committee, 
 oonsiating of Senators Matthew Hale, Francis S. Thayer and! 
 Asher P. Nichols, whose report, datedl March 10, 1869, is in 
 
i87 
 
 Tolmne 3 of the documents of tlie State Senate of the State of 
 New York for the year 1869 (No. 52). 
 
 Tliat dtiring, and previons to said investigation, deponent was, 
 for political reasons, endeavoring to find evidence of some im,- 
 prOper conduct on the part of said Payn, and in his conversation 
 with Senator Palmer ^nd otihers on the subject he was endeavor- 
 ing to make up a case against said Payn, and to procure an 
 ihvestigation before said committee, hoping that a case might 
 be made out against him, and he told them all he knew and all 
 he suspected and believed against Mr. Payn, and that most of 
 deponent's said statements were mere suspicions and belief, enter- 
 tained by him at the time, as stated in his testimony before said 
 committee, on page 67 of said report. 
 
 That deponent never knew of any improper conduct on the 
 part of said Payn, or that said Payn ever misrepresented Senator 
 A. W. Palmer or Jay Gould to this deponent or any other person 
 or claimed to this deponent tliat he had any control or special 
 influence over said Palmer or MS vote, or that said Palmer's vote 
 could be influenced or controlled in any way. 
 
 That said Payn openly advocated the passage of what was 
 known as the Erie railroad bill, but did not, to the knowledge or 
 pref^ent belief of this deponent; resort to any improper or dis- 
 honorable practices in Ms advocacy of the same. 
 
 That soon after the conclusion of said investigation, deponent 
 became fully sa,tiisfled, from cionversations with Jay Groiuld, 
 Henry Thompson and J. C. P.anoroft Davis, that his suspicions 
 against Mr. .Payn in the matter were wholly unfounded, and that 
 great injustice had been done Mr. Payn in the report of said 
 committee. 
 
 J. VAN VALKENBUBGH. 
 Sworn to before me, this 30th ) 
 day of March, 1877. j 
 
 W. C. Daley, 
 
 Notary PubUc. 
 
 STATE OF JSTEW TOEK, \ ^^ , 
 Columbia. Oofntt Oleek's Office, j 
 
 I, Levi F. Longley, clerk of the county of Columbia, and also 
 clerk of the Supreme and County Courts, being courts of record 
 held therein, do hereby certify that W. C. Daley, whose nam-e is 
 subscribed to the jurat or certificate of the^ proof or acknowledg- 
 ment of the annexed instrument, and thereon written, was at 
 the time of taking such proof or acknowledgment, a notary 
 public in and for the county aforesaid, dwelling in said county, 
 commissioned and sworn, and duly authorized to take the'same. 
 
488 
 
 And, further, that I am well acquainted with the handwriting 
 of such notary public, and verily believe that the signature to 
 the said certificate of proof or acknowledgment is genuine. • 
 
 In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my 
 (Oolumbia hand, and affixed the seal of the said courts 
 County and county, this 2d day of * Aprpil, A. D. 
 Seal.) 1877. 
 
 L. F. LONGLEY, - 
 CLtrk. 
 
 SUMMESTG UP OF MR EAESTES. 
 
 Mr. CL airman and- Gentlemen of the Oomanlttiee. — The late- 
 ness of the hour at which I am called) upon to presient my views 
 with regard to this investigation to the conmnittee, compels w.e 
 to seek in every way to be birief in; my disousskm; but the 
 na:ture of the issue which is prlesented, and the importance of it, 
 as well as the many lines oif investiigaition which touch upon the 
 main subject of inquiry, compel me to occupy more time than I 
 fear will be agreeable to the committee'. 
 
 The publication which was made in The Press, on' the 18tli 
 day of April last, was startling in its import, aiffeoting as it did 
 two branches of the publilo service: 
 
 First The integrity of the organization of officiers in the city 
 of New York, imputimg to- them deliberate conspiracy to raolse 
 a fund with which to corrupt the Legislature of the State of 
 New York; and 
 
 Second, Negotiations willfully entered into between mtembers 
 of the Senate of the State and the firemen or theaJr agents, for 
 the distribution of that coirrtupt fund to influence legislaitionL 
 
 Notwithstanding that the communities of the State have been 
 in a cyclonic condition on the subject oif corruption in public 
 and official life during the past year, the genius which inspired 
 this article succeeded in niialiing iit not only a sensiaition for the 
 hour, but in siriking and holding the attention of the people of 
 the State upon an entirely new branch of official corruption, and, 
 of course, excited attention to the investigation which was 
 necessarily to be made to establish or refute the allegations ofl 
 the artilcle. 
 
 The vindication of the reputations of the Senaitonsi involved 
 and of the fire department of the city of New York was an exi- 
 gent duty, or, swiftdetection of a great puibliic wrong and piunish- 
 ment of the partSlcipaints was equally diuie to an outraged public 
 sentiment. 
 
 The Senators concerned im the publication justified them^ 
 selves by asking instant investigation by the body of which they 
 
 J j-i J 
 
489 
 
 gation, which, centadnly can not be said to bjave neglected any 
 of the means by which the truth of IMs maitter may possibly be 
 ascertained. The examples which have been set in the investi'- 
 gatioms of the past year hare been improved upon by this com- 
 mittee, and with the assent of all personsi concerned in the pre- 
 tended revelations, no mode oif dlnvestigation has been omitted. 
 Clues; conversations upon the street comers between panties 
 remote from the persons interested in the investigation and 
 charged with corrupt conduct; the statements of persons now 
 dead, made in the priva,cy of theilr own families, or in accoiunt- 
 ing to icreditors for, the non-payment of their just debts; every 
 form of goissip which goesi on among men in all places of meet- 
 ing, have been resorted to in this iinvestigatiom by the concur- 
 rence of ail persons interested, and under the direction of this 
 committee, for the purpose of exploiting thisi alleged outrage 
 upon public right3. 
 
 Officials of the fire department of the city ofl New York have 
 conducted private inquisitorial investigations, bringing to bear 
 upon persons who might have knowledge of these matteirs their 
 superior power and personal influence over their subordinates in 
 the fire department, for the pnrpose of gettiing information, which 
 might be laid before this committee. Eminent counsel appear- 
 ing to sustain one side of this issue hiave resorted to their private 
 clientage, and drawn upon them by appeals toi their sense of 
 obligation for past favors done in courts of jusitice, toi give in- 
 formation which would aid in developing the truthi of this 
 matter. Base men, proved to have been corrupt in their inten- 
 tions and to have sought to get bribes ttol aid this salary] bill, 
 have secretly communicated to the other side their private opin- 
 ions, suspicions, jealousies and all the gossip and information 
 which they gathered in the course of their attem,pt to induce a 
 bribe to be given them by the fire department of the city of 
 New York which too has ai'died in the development of whatever 
 there might be underneath the surface in this matter. 
 
 The firemen of the city of New York who were concerned in 
 this matter have been summoned tO' the office of the fire comr 
 missioners, and there directed to go to the rooms of counsel 
 employed in this investigation or to the editorial room of the 
 author of this article, and there unfold, under promise of protec- 
 tion, or threatened punishment, whatever they knew, suspected, 
 Had heard or ever had imagined might be the case with regard 
 to the raising of funds for the purpose of passing this bill; and 
 of all these varying forms of investigation into this alleged 
 iniquity, there has been no complaint upon the part of the per- 
 sons accused in this article; but on the other hand, as you wUl 
 
 F. 62 ' 
 
490 
 
 bear me witness, at every point in this investigation it has been 
 the counsel who examined in behalf of these accused parties who 
 has insistled upon probing deeper than the gentlemen upon the 
 other side were willing to go, and who has not even been willing 
 that the shroud of the dead should hide a secret fact which bore 
 upon the reputations of the living or the relations of the man 
 now dead to the living, before his departure. And you will bear 
 me witness that in this investigation, from the outset, it has been 
 my endeavor to bring out every fact, circumstance and situation, 
 from any person whomsoiever under examination upon the wit- 
 ness stand, even to the extent oJ being criticised by the learned 
 and able chairman of the committee, for having smutted reputa- 
 tions which would halve escaped but for my persistent search 
 for the truth of this whole matter. 
 
 Such an investigation as this, therefore, is useful, because its 
 result will be accepted as the truth of the matter. 
 
 Even at that point M the investigation where my learned 
 brother determined that his services as an examiner could no 
 longer be utilized, we demanded, as the right of 1h.e gentlemeni 
 who were accused in this article, that this learned counsel con- 
 tinue his examinations, and scrutiny of the testunony, which 
 was to be brought, and was being brought, before this committee, 
 as counsel of the conmiittee, in order that at the end of this 
 investigation there might be no' scintilla of doubt that the 
 issues which have been made had been fairly tried out to final 
 judgment, and the truth had' prevailed in the investigatioi^. 
 
 The article of the 18th of April, so sensational as to attract 
 attention in a time of sensations, was cunningly devised to 
 smirch and destroy reputations beyond the scope of the facts 
 which the article itself contained, by insinuation. 
 
 Ike article wais not written in a judicial frame of mind, and 
 the inferences which were suggested in the article went far 
 beyond the facts which were stated in the article, and conse- 
 quently it became the high duty of these Senators to insist that 
 whatever could be brought forth to sustain the insinuations and 
 the Inferences which exceeded the facts of the article, should be 
 brought before this committee, by the gentleman who was the 
 aullior of the article. He has been upon the witness stand, and 
 at length has defined the sources of the information of the 
 article and the purposes for which it was written; and briefly ^s 
 I may, I shall undertake to analyze the evidence which he gave, 
 and place it alongside of the levidence which has been given in 
 support and in contradiction of his allegations. 
 
 Tlie eminent counsel who presented his views last evening 
 did not allude to any piece of evidence in this case which bore 
 
191 
 
 against tlie Senators whose names were used in tMs article. 
 No acts of theirs, no transaction, no word of th.eirs, was alludedl 
 to in that elaborate and very able summary, as sustaining the 
 allegation that negotiations between them and other parties, 
 or certainly in their behalf, had been entered into' in reference 
 to the distribution of this corruption fund. On the contrary, 
 that veiy powerful and elaborate summary closed, to my aston- 
 ishment, with what was tantamount to a perfect confession that 
 no case was made out against any of the Senators, even by im- 
 plication, by this omission to cite any piece of evidenoe what- 
 soever that bore against them or connected them with any cor- 
 rtiplti fund, if one had been raised in the city of IsTew York, 
 directly or indirectly. 
 
 It was conceded upon the record that one or two of these gen- 
 tlemen: had had conversations with Mr. Payn with reference to 
 ttiis bill. That the amendment had originated with him and had 
 been placed upon the bill by the committee on cities at his sug- 
 gestion in the first place, was apparently conceded. And then, 
 with eloquent sarcasm, the distinguished counsel suggested the 
 comparison of persons in public life consorting with other per- 
 sons, as being affected by those associations much. as a chaste 
 woman might be by association with a lewd woman. This elo- 
 quent sarcasm took the place in the elaborate address of any 
 evidence of relations on the part of these three Senators which 
 in any way implicated them in any corrupt or improper trans- 
 action or communication. 
 
 So that we are presented at the outset with the theory of Mr. 
 Eioot, developed from his long experience at the bar and in 
 public life, that when one takes from another a suggestion, ini 
 the discharge of his duties as a member of the Legislature of the 
 Sitate of New York, he must be careful that the person who 
 makes the suggestion with regard to a change or amendment of 
 a bill pending in the Legislature is not a person whose history 
 and character will taint the proposition or amendment which is 
 presented, despite its merits. Senators themselves musit be wise 
 to know all that may exist in the universe at large, back of the 
 mere act of the presentation of tde amendment to them for their 
 consideration. 
 
 I am perfectly astonished to-night, at the close of this exami- 
 nation! of Mr. Payn, which was so much desired by my friend 
 Eobt, that he escaped from all his engagements in the city of 
 New York, and returned here toi-night, unexpectedly to himself 
 as to us, that he has obtained so little from the witness so long 
 on the stand, to sustain the harsh, severe suggestion with which 
 he closed ^is eloquent address last evening. He said of Mt! 
 
492 
 
 Payn last niglit what the levideace in the case, as it stood at that 
 time, warranted him, perhaps, in saying, that in 1869, Mr. Payn 
 had been censured by a committee of this Legislature for his 
 connection with a transaction relating to the legalization of the 
 Erie issue of |10,000,000 worth of bonds; and the terminology 
 of that report bore out the remarks, as it stood at the time 
 when Mr. Boot commenced his address; but Mr. Boot immedi- 
 ately leaped to the conclusion that one act of that kind was 
 sufficient notice to establish forever that the person was a 
 tainted man, with whom associationsi from that day forever 
 could only be construed as evidence of corrupt intentionei upon 
 the part of all the rest of the world: One act of receiving compen- 
 sation for services in the advocacy of a bill reported by that 
 committee was, in the mind of Mr. Root, the final and conclusive 
 summary of the life and character and services in relati'on 
 to the oommunity and to men' at large, of Mr. Pa|yn. 
 Of coiurse, there is no other suggestion within the four com- 
 ers of this case of any other censurable act in the life 
 of Mr. Payn, aside from the fact that he taltes employment 
 in aiding and promoting legislation in the service of persons 
 interested in legislation ini this State — there ilsi no act ofl im- 
 morality in 'the long life of Mr. Payn which has been suggested 
 in the testimony producedf at this hearing; but for bnce he fell 
 beneath the censurie of the committee of the Legislature in 1869. 
 Well, that one thing, even if it had been left un controverted 
 and unaffected by the evidence given by Mr. Payn upon this 
 hearing, would hardly have been sufficient to justify that severe 
 comparison instituted by Mr. Eioot; fkDT, if one act oif wrong in- 
 tention or of criminal purpoBip is to forever destroy a' man^s right 
 to association with honorable men or association among them, 
 what shall be said of his omm client, Mr. Quigg, who in 1885 was 
 held up to the world and denounced' by the judgment of the 
 criminal court as a libeller of his fellow men, and sentenced ac- 
 cording to the law. IVom that day forth, he stoiod as an ad- 
 judged libeller, not only in the coanmunity in which he lived, 
 but wherever he might go among the citizenship of the St;ite. 
 And if that one aict is to determine his position andl standitng 
 at the present tilme, why is he in the assoiciatiloni of honorable 
 men, and given thein fortunes, invested in a newspaper enter- 
 prise, to use in commilssion of similar acts of depredation upon 
 his fellow citizeniS!? 
 
 But after the investigation of 1869, the revocation by the same 
 
 committee, upon abundant testimony, of the censure which 
 
 was passed upon him in connection with that bill im 1869, maltes 
 
 . it useless and needless for me to occupy time with that matter 
 
I 493 
 
 of the report of 1869. Aind Mr. Payn, therefoire, so far as that 
 record itself is concerned, has destroyed the effedt whiioh, by its 
 tetTQ'S, if his evidence ha-d not beeni given, it might have had in 
 discredi^ting the relations oi honorable men with Mr. Payni in 
 oonneotiom with legislationi 
 
 Bnt JVIr. Payn's position in this State, his poliitioaJ relatioois, 
 his business relations, his avocation, ane not matters that are 
 disguised .from public view, but aire known to all men. I do not 
 have the pleasure or the honor of being a member of that great 
 political organization which seems so near and dear to the heart 
 of Mr. Payn. Neither am I concerned mucih in the political 
 rivalries and factional divisions of that grand old party; bnit I 
 have been so long accustomed to recoignize the mant whloi is so 
 ci'iticised by Mr. Boot as one of itsi essiential factors; in party 
 maJniaigement; as one of its conspicuous figures in political con- 
 ventions and iu' publiti life; as one of the next and first lieu- 
 tenants of its great leadership since the time I was a m.ember' of 
 the party prior to. 1872, that I am amaized that there should be 
 a question any linger whether persons who are identified with 
 that pairty can with credit to themselves hold conferences with 
 Mr. Payn amA accept suggestions as to^ the amendment o!f public 
 laws at his hands.. Who does not know that he sits at the door 
 of all the party, councils, amd that all men in public life in the 
 State of New York are accustomed to accept suggestions with 
 regard to the great affairs of the grand old party, "with regard 
 to policies of legislation at his hands, and to confer with him 
 with itegaird to the means of promoting the welf&ire of that 
 organization? ; 
 
 This is a matter of common knowledge among all men, which 
 is mot disguised; from the members of tMs committee, or this 
 Legislature. "Whio dloes not know that during the lifetime of 
 Ulysses S. G-rant, whoi at all times wafe true to his friends, and 
 never betrayed or assassinated any man whoi had advanced Ms 
 interests — that Ulysses S. Gvmxt honored andl trusted this man 
 Payn with his confidence and offlclal approval during his entire 
 career as President of the United States, and until the date of 
 his death? 
 
 "V\nh.o does not know that that other great Republican leader, 
 Reuben E. Penton, accepted of him counsel and suggestion and 
 bore him as a close aompamion throughout that great political 
 career which was so much of an honor to the people of this 
 StaJte as well as to himself? 
 
 "VS'Tio does not know that that other man, pure in public and in 
 private life, whose integrity was never suspected; trusted, hon- 
 
494 
 
 ored and associated with, this man Payn down to the day of his 
 unfortunate death in the city of New York. I refer to that peer- 
 less leader of the Bepuiblican party, that spotless statesman, 
 Boscoe Conkling. 
 
 Who does not know that it has been by this man's advice and 
 suggestion that policies have been recommended to the conTen- 
 tions of the party, locai dissensions in the party have been, 
 healed, and that the leadership throughout the State, of this 
 great old party, has always been willing to consort with this 
 man and accept his suggestion and advice, whom to-day gentle- 
 men insult by suggestions which are not warranted by the evi- 
 dence in this case? 
 
 Oomtinually sitting in the halls of the political conventions of 
 his party, with which these Senators whom he has dared to 
 speak of,, are idtentifled); prominent in all county and State and 
 nationad conventions ; the messenger, the confldant of the seorets 
 of all the leaders of the party — it is remarkable, indeed, that in 
 the course of his avocation, which relates to protecting the inter- 
 ests of his employers or his friends from adverse legislation, the 
 mere matter of his approaching a Senator in reference to a pend- 
 ing bill in the Legislature should be held by counsel as evidence 
 of corruption. There is no evidence of his influence ever being 
 applied to co];ruiptly influence the votes of Senators or Assembly- 
 men. If there is no man too great nor good within the ranks of 
 this Eiepublican organization of this State to entertain him as a 
 friend and to eit with him in the councils of his party and in 
 the private councils of leaders, there is no Senator or Assembly- 
 man in the official representation' of that organization in the 
 Legislature of the State who can be smirched by hearing sug- 
 gestions which mlay emanate from him in regard to proper legis- 
 lation pending before the Legislature of the State of New York. 
 
 And as the case which has been made by the statements in 
 this article rests wholly upon the proposition that Mr. Payn's 
 presentation of a propo'sition of this kind to Senators was sufiQ- 
 cient evidence of a corrupt conspiracy to effect the passage of 
 the law, I scout the suggestion, for who does not know that 
 these gentlemen who make this charge would to-morrow extend 
 the hand of reconciliation across the bloody chasm to Mr. Payn, 
 could they be assured, could they indulge the slightest hope or 
 expectation thatl in the near or distant future, their views of 
 Eepublioan policy would meet the recognition and fajvor of the 
 maligned Payn. 
 
 It is true that he antagonized one faction oH the Eiepublican 
 party at all points, and is severely antagnostio when atntagoi- 
 nistici; but it has always been so. In the changes of political 
 
495 
 
 life, lie has been m all thie associations and connected with all 
 the different traditional policies which have prevailed in the 
 Eepublican party within the last 30 years. As the fortunes of 
 difflerent leaders came into the ascendency, they have sought the 
 counsel of this man, and it is too late to-day to uijure him by 
 insinuation, when gentlemen do not do it by the evidence pre- 
 sented upon this hearing. The fact that, after a caneer of many 
 yeans in Albany, in protecting the legislative interest's of his 
 employers, a protriaicted examination falls, without the sugges- 
 tion that he had ever approached with improper influences a mem- 
 ber of the Legislature during these many years tihat he has been 
 attending in the halls of legislation in this building to the inter- 
 ests of his employers, is consmmnate proof that Mr. Boot depended 
 wholly upon a transaction 25 years agone for matter with which 
 to assail the character of Mr. Payn as having corrupted in any 
 manner the course of legislation in this State. 
 
 It would not be neieessary for me to say so much with regard 
 to Mr. Payn, who is labundantly able to taike cajre of himself, but 
 for the fact which I bring to the attention of the committee, and 
 enforce again, that the propositioni which Is' made here ite that 
 acquaintance with Mr. Payn and conversation with Mr. Payn is 
 all upon which Mr. Eoot bases a charge of wrong against these 
 Senators. It is not what was said between them but the fact of 
 conversing that smirches Senators, as counsel claims. I beg 
 your paiTdon for hajvitag oociuipied so mnieh time with regaird to 
 this branch of this investigation, and I must pass very rapidly 
 over the whole field. 
 
 The two charges which aire made here are that there were nego- 
 tiations in behalf of Senattors with regard to a ooiPruption fund, 
 and that a corruption fund was raised. The use of the names 
 of Senators by Mr. Quigg, in connectiion) with thait publication, 
 he has stated, was based upon certain evidence which he has 
 formally outlined. He says on the witness stand: 
 
 " Q. The name of Eaines was mentioned in that article on the 
 strength of statements made to you by Eothenharasler and 
 Clifford? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 "Q. That conversation was the sole basis of yonri use of the 
 name of Senator Raines in this article? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 " Q. No other person had given yon any information in regard 
 to negotiation by or in his behaJf in regard to a coaruption 
 fund? A. No. 
 
 "Q. You had taken pains to have Rothenhaiusler rednice to 
 writing his stiatement for yonr own protection as well as in- 
 formation? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 "Q. Have yon, up to this time, any information from any 
 source of any negotiation iby or la behalf of Senator Raines, 
 
496 
 
 except wtat you gat fhroiiiig*]i tbM cionTiersatiom? A. Noi, 
 sir. 
 
 "Q. Have you amy informajtioii, direct or indirecit, in regard 
 to negotiations by or in behalf of Senator OaggeshaJi, except 
 what yom got through that conversatioai? A. No, sir. 
 
 '•' Q. Have you any inlonmatiom imm amy sounce of any nego- 
 tiati'ons by or in behalf of Senator Bobertson, except what ypTi 
 got by that interview? A. I think the conversajtiom which was 
 detailed here, and which I had heard before I wrote the article, be- 
 tween the two firemen, Qiffard and Bothemhausler, with Mrs. 
 O'Eeilley, constitutes the only infonnatioii I had in addition to 
 that 
 
 "Q. And just upon the strength of the staten^^nts of thiose 
 two men, you mentioned, the name of Senator Eobertsion? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 "Q. In connectioin wiith the oorruptionj fund? A. Another 
 ground upon which I mention the name i® that of a conversation 
 with Leary at the time he went to see biimi and ask him to report 
 the bill. ; 
 
 "Q. You may state whait that was? A. Mr. Leary told me 
 that he had asked Senator Robertson to report the bill and 
 Eobertson told him — 
 
 "Q. Repiort with or withoiut the amendment? A. Withiout; 
 and Eobertson told' him there were other very much' more im- 
 portant majtters before his committee than the firemen's bill, 
 and he didn't think he sihould have time to attend to it; within 
 a few days after tihlat comversiation it was reponted with! the 
 amendment. , 
 
 "Q. Now you have stated the whole case? A. Now I have 
 stated the whole case. ' 
 
 "Q. On which you used the Senators' names? A. On whaled 
 they were used." 
 
 This committee has taken the testimony of Eothenhjaniisler, 
 and he testifies to al conversation with Fbreman Smith a® fol- 
 lows. I pass to what relates tol the Senators directly: "He 
 says your bill won't be reported outt by the last day of this 
 sessions We have been told so by friends who have taken up 
 our amendment. He said that the fiends were Bayn, RoWertt- 
 son, E^ea and Coggeshail." 
 
 The allegation of the article which was printed was that 
 Coggeshail, Eaines and Eobertson required to be " taken care of," 
 putting the language in quotation marksu Now, there is nothing 
 in this testimony of Bothenhausler to the effect that he made 
 such a remark to Mr. Quigg. Mr. Qudgg says that he made that 
 remark to himi; but on croiss-examinatito, Bothenhausler stated 
 as followBi: 
 
497 
 
 " Q. You have stated here that Mr. Bmithj told you that friends 
 of their bill were Payu, CoggeshaJI, Robertson and Raines? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 "Q. Did he say anything else to you with reference to these 
 Senators? A. No, sir. 
 
 "Q. Say anything to you about their requiring money? A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 " Q. Did he say anything to you about their being favorable or 
 againsit your bill? A. He said tJiey were friends of his. 
 
 "Q. Is that the only form in which their; names were men- 
 tioued? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 " Q. And that these people that were there in Albany were not 
 there for their health; you understood that he spoke of go-be- 
 tweens? A. Yes. 
 
 "Q. He didn't speak of Senators being there not for their 
 health? A. No, silr. 
 
 "Q. Are you perfectly certain that the order in which you 
 tesitifled tol:hat conversation is the way in which you told Quigg? 
 A. Very near; I may have made a few words different. 
 
 "Q. And youi told it to Quigg about the 10th of March? A. 
 Yes, sir." 
 
 It is due to Senator Coggeshall that I call attention tO' the 
 fact that Senator Coggeshall's name is not in the written state- 
 ment of the Smith conversa-tiotn, which was made by Rothen- 
 hausler to Mr. Quigg. 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — ^Let me see that letter, will you. This is 
 the statemient that RoHhenhausler said that he gave to Mr. 
 Quigg? 
 
 Mr. Raines. — -That he gave to Mr. Quigg, after his conversa- 
 tiou with Mr. Quigg, at Mr. Quigg's request; and it remained in 
 Mr. Quigg's possession. 
 
 Now, that is the Smith comversation, as testified to by Rothen- 
 hausler. The names of Raines and Coggeshall were mentioned 
 in this article solely upon the Rothenhausler report of the Smith 
 conversatiom. Mr. Quigg states that he used the name of 
 Senator Robertson on the additional statement by Cliffoird and 
 Rothenhausler of a conversation with Mrs. O'Reilley, and their 
 statement of the conversation with Mrs. O'Reilley brings in Sen- 
 ator Robertson in this way: 
 
 " She said she had a list of the names of those who were going 
 to contribute the money, but we told her we didn't care about 
 getting that list, and then she said : 'You people represent a 
 gentlemiaia by the name of Robertson,' and we said, ' We don't 
 know him; who is he?' And »be said, 'Mr. Robertson is a Sen- 
 F. 63 
 
'498 
 
 ator; tliat is the gentleman who has oliargei of our affairs. My 
 husband told me so.' She said, ' I don't Imow whether my hus- 
 band has got any money, but if he has, I MQ returm it to you.' 
 We brought that matter to the editor of The Press." 
 
 Smith, of course, denied that conversation entirely, and Mrs. 
 O'Reilley denied ever having heard of Mr. Robertson whatever or 
 ever having mentioned him. 
 
 At this hlooir, I can not stop (fco comment upon the comparative 
 cTeidibility of Smith and Eothenhauisler otr Mrs. O'Reilley and 
 Rothenhausleir; but i* is apparent to ttis oonmiittee that the 
 statement imputed to Mrs. O'Reilley can not be considered, asi she 
 says she has never heard the name of Robertson either in con- 
 nection with her husband or any one else; and she stated* 
 repeatedly that she neveir heaJrd of the raising of any fund by 
 Mr. O'Reilley, in his lifetime, and none was found by her after his 
 death. 
 
 Thus, we have exhauisted tihe entire proof which is mentioned 
 by Mr. Quigg ais the basils of the usie of the names of these 
 three Senators in Ma article of April' 18th. Dispnted as these 
 witnesses, Rothenhauisler amd Clitffoird, are, by the persons 
 whom tih'ey said mentioned the names of Senators, yet the facts 
 Rothenhansler and Clifford testify to themselves are not incul- 
 patory of the Senators. They testify to gossip on the streets of 
 New York between peacsons not acquainted with the Senators nor 
 having any direct relation to them; but tiake it as it stands, they 
 did not in those conversations meniion the names of these 
 Senators in an inculpatoiry way. All they said was that these 
 three Senarfjors were friends of their otrganization. Rothen- 
 hansler refuttes the staJtement that Smith said to him, or he 
 saiid to Quigg that thfese Senatsors wonld require any money, an^ 
 all that occurred at the O'Reilley interview was, "Why, are you 
 representing Senator Robertson:? He ha® charge of onr affairs." 
 Nothing more. 
 
 So that, out of this flimsy allegation, that these two petsons 
 in the city of New Yorlc mentiloned the names of these Senators, 
 without imputing to themi in either instance corrupt' relation 
 to the matter, this gentleman, by a bold stroke of his pen, has 
 connected them with one of the greatest bribeiry schemes of this 
 age of corruption. 
 
 Said Mrs. O'Reilley, in response to the qiiestion: "Did 
 you siay to these gentlemen, do yon people represent a 
 gentlemen by th'e name of Robertson? A. No, sir; I 
 never heard of it. Q. When- dild yon first hear the name of 
 Robprtsion? A. LaJst Sunday; it was in the Sup'(Jay Siin; Mr. 
 
499 
 
 O'Eeilley had no friend by the name of Eobertsion; he had one of 
 the name of Eioibinson. Q. Was either of those names mentioned 
 between you and the gentlemen? A. Not that I remember. 
 Q. Did they say to yon they did not know Robertson, and did 
 you say he is a Seniator; and he is the gentleman who has got 
 chairge of onr affairs; m,y husband told me sio? A. No, sir; I 
 can assure yow I diid not." 
 
 And thus it clearly appeairs that Mr. Quigg used the names of 
 these three Senators in this article, in a cold-blooded marratiion of 
 inculpatory facts wlthtot a living person to testify here toi havilng 
 mentioned! them in any snch way to SlJr. Quigg. 
 
 Now, let us recuiT to the article, and see what use was made of 
 the names of these Senators upon that basiis: "Boodle, |45,000. — 
 A Legislative Scandal which must be Investigated. — Firemen's 
 Bill Strike. — Mercenaiies Demand a Corruption Eund. — Money 
 Actually Eaised. — Robertson, Coiggeshall and Raines were the 
 Senators Mentioned." Immediaitelyi preceding: "Mercenaries 
 Demand a Corruption Fund. — Money Actually Raised. — Roberta 
 son, Coiggeshall and Raines were the Senators Mentioned." Im- 
 mediately after: "Lou Payn to handle things'. — Negotiations 
 with Prominent Fiiremen. — Effoi'ts to Sidetrack the Pavev 
 Bill. — Only Powerful Influence was Able to Make the Senato^rs 
 Let Goi — ^The Fire Department Shonld go to Work, and Ask 
 Some Questions." Then the article fbllows: 
 
 " The next Lexow investigation should be of the Senate itself. 
 There ane members of that body whose motives, ta their attitude 
 toward certain public measures, need to be inquired into. The 
 Press presents to-day certain facts in connection with the his- 
 tory of the firemen's salary bill, which points unerringly at cor- 
 nipt negotiations, if not between' Senators and the representa- 
 tives of llie officers' association of the flre department, at least 
 in behalf of Senators, through one of the most notorious lobby- 
 ists. These facts suggest, if they do not wholly prove, that the 
 measure introduced by Senator Robertson as a substitute for the 
 Pavey salary Mil was a strike for money; thiat it was so under- 
 stood by the officers of the fire department; that it resulted from 
 the negotiations in which ex-Marshal Louis F. Payn was a con- 
 spicuous figure; that the terms of the negotiations required the 
 raising among the firemen of this city of |45,000, to be dis- 
 tributed among the Senators who were alleged to be in the deal." 
 And so on. Between |7,000 and $10,000 was actually raised, and 
 that the Senators whosp names were mentioned among the fire- 
 men as the men who "required to be taken care of," were Robert 
 son of Westchester, Rallies of Ontario, and Goggeshall of 
 Oneida. 
 
500 
 
 Now, the quoitatioii marks around tilie words '' required to be 
 taken care of '' imply that some person has communicated to Mr. 
 Quigg that statement. But every person to whoim he charges 
 those words denies the responsibility for themi, and leaves Mr. 
 Quigg responsible not only for the words, but for the motive 
 which prompted them. 
 
 Again, the article says: "The officers of the firemen's asso- 
 ciation and the members of its special committee on legislation 
 began to receive numerous hints from the foremen and assistant 
 foremiem in their various engine-houses that what was needed was 
 a little soap, and that there were Senators' at Albany who " were 
 not there for their health." 
 
 Again, we have " were not there for their health " in quotation 
 marks, referring to Senators, whereas the statement of Smith 
 to Eiothenhausler and Clifford, as thiey te&tify, was that 
 " go-betweens wer-e not there for their health," and no reference 
 was had to Senators. 
 
 So that the connection of Senators in this paragTaph with tlie 
 allegation " were not there for their health " is another cold- 
 blooded invention which no person stands responsible for, except 
 Mr. Quigg himself. 
 
 "Eventually, as is well known, these Senators let go," says 
 thig article, again. "The bill was restored to its original cou- 
 dition, reported favorably, and passed. It received the mayor's 
 approval and the Grovemor's signature, and it is now a law. The 
 officers' bill was introduced as a separate measure, was reported 
 favorably, and is now pending. This came about because of the 
 firm positioii the firemen took in refusing to be blaolcmailed, and 
 because of the powerful political influences they were able to 
 secure in behalf of their just naeasure and in support of their 
 honorable conduct. But the behavior of two of the Senators, 
 Eobertson and Ctoggeshall, whose namies were connected with 
 this scandal, and who, on Tuesday last, repudiated their caucus 
 pledges and voted in the Senate to emasculate the Lexow police 
 reorganization bill, by so amending it as to give to policemen the 
 right of appeal from the finding of the police reorganization com- 
 mission, gives to the faicts inl the case of the firemen's bill a 
 peculiar pertinency. If it can be possible that" they wene so 
 innocent as not to know that their names were being used to 
 force corrupt legislation, then thipy cert-aihly will be anxious to 
 shed what light they can on the matter." 
 
 In' editorial comments on, that same article. The Press says, 
 in the same issue: 
 
 "In presenting, as is done elspwheire in to-day's Press, some 
 facts that bsivie come to our attention with regard to the raising 
 
501 
 
 of a corruption fund among the ofacers of the fire department 
 to inflnence legislation at Albany, we are not unmindful of the 
 duty of a newspaper to avoid trifling with men's reputation. 
 The Press is not a sensational newspaper, nor one that thinks 
 lightly of the value of a good name. But as a Repiublican journal, 
 having regard lor tiie homioir of the Republician party, we are not 
 willing to shut eyes, ears and mouth while a few meroenairy and 
 dishonest Republican officials betray and wreck the party, cause 
 its failure to r-edeem its pledges, and bring upon it the indigma- 
 tion and reproaclies of the people. There is no use in attempt- 
 ing to disguise the fact thait this is precisely what is being done. 
 There are three or four Republican Senators at Albany who have 
 been guilty of acts that are hard to reconcile with good motives, 
 and these men a,re standing against almost every measure which 
 the decent sentiment of the Republican party demands to be 
 passed. The facts with regard to the flremen^s bill are 
 especially pei"'tinent just now, because they suggest what may be 
 a common motive for all of these bad performances. So far as 
 the officers of the fire departmemt are concerned, they are really 
 to be more pitied than blamed for what they have . done. The 
 uiniformed forces of this city have be^n taught by a dozen experi- 
 ences that the only way by which they can obtain amy legislation, 
 just and necessary or otherwise, for tJieir benieflt or their relief, 
 is by bribing the dozen or half-dozen officials whO' make it a busi- 
 ness to plant themselves in the way of any proposition out of 
 wMch extortion is jjossible. This sort of knavery has got to 
 come to an end." 
 
 Without continuing, I simply call your attention to the plain, 
 unvarnished charge which is made in this article against these 
 Senators — without qualification — by Mr. Quigg, who had only 
 these communications of Rothenhausler with regard to the 
 interview with Mrs. O'Reilley and the interview with Smith, to 
 sustain himself. 
 
 The next and most important line of investigation here is 
 with regard to ihe motive of Mi-. Quigg in the publication of 
 this article, and the facts and histoi'y of it as developed by the 
 proof. 
 
 Of course, there is no connection established between Smith, 
 who made the alleged remark to Rothenhausler, or Mrs. 
 O'Reilley, who made Ihe alleged remark to Clifford, and any of 
 the Senators who are named in fhis article. ISTeither is it shown 
 that any person had at any time communicated any facts to Mrs. 
 O'Reilley or to Smitli with regard to the relations of these Sen- 
 ators to this matter. Suppose to-ni'ght, while you are quietly 
 sitting here, two strangers on the street, in a casual way, for their 
 
502 
 
 awn amusemenit and deleotation', deal out scaadai with, regard toi 
 you Senatora and some bill which, is pending in this Legislature. 
 With as much fairness can imputations against these Senators" 
 be based uppn that remark in the city of New York, putting the 
 worst construction upon it that can be put upon it; as though 
 you were to be responsible for the gossip in some beer saloon in 
 the lower part of this city, while you are engaged in your 
 duties on the hill, of strangers', not only to the business of the 
 Legislature, but to you, as members of the Legislature. 
 
 But, pasising by this, which is all that Mr. Quigg has to con- 
 nect tiiese Senators with this alleged corruptliiam fund, I inquire 
 why did this man Qiiigg use the names of these Senators in this 
 publicationi? 
 
 We find Quigg toi be a person of ambition, with all sorts 
 of wheels in his head in regard toi his political future. He 
 was mayor in his mind for a short time last year. He 
 certainly succeeded in becoming a candidate for Congress, 
 and was elected. The means by which that election was car- 
 ried have been developed in this investigation, in par-t. He said 
 upon the witness stand that he did not give any assurances 
 to the gentlemen of the ftre department with regard to his 
 possible action in relation to thmr salary bill; but every 
 person who listened to him as he sat in the lohair knew that Mr. 
 Quigg was unblushingly committing the mositl foul and corrupt 
 perjury. He was not having that iJnterview with Mr. Grraham 
 intending to disappoiint (?) Mr. Grraham, amid if he was deliberately 
 deceiving and misleading hilm, he wiotuJd this committee. When 
 Mr. Graham told upon the witness-stand the square, plain prom- 
 ise of Mr. Quigg, of what he would do with regard] to the salai-y 
 bill' in case the firemen unilted in Ms support, every one knew 
 that Mr. Grraham had stated the exact, plain, unvarnished truth. 
 
 Why Mr. Quigg should have been delicate (?) in so" small a 
 matter as securing the support of the uniformed fire department 
 (918 men all told, many of them iu hdls own district), and imot 
 aJdmit that he held omt hopes to them in regard to his action in 
 the future with regard to their bill, is somethiug I can not quite 
 understand. A man who has no sort of hestitaition about using 
 the names of SenaJtors without wairrant, and for mjaJicioius pur- 
 pose in a publication of this character, certainly would not 
 hesitate for an instiant to make any sort otfl a pledge that would 
 be useful to him in regard to securing his election as a member 
 of Congress. 
 
 Having been elected to Congress He proceeded to interest him- 
 
 'self in the firemen's salary bill, in redemption of his pledges, as 
 
 he told Mr. G^raiham in the month! of December. And att the same 
 
503 
 
 time he took a gneat deal of interest im tie bill known as the 
 judicial sales bill. When that Mil 'Oame up at Alibany, and' was 
 under ooaisideration, Mr. Qtiigg caime to Albany repeatedly. In 
 Mr. Platf a prlYalte room in the city oifl ISew. York and at the 
 ICemnioire Hotel, he lobbied with ^natoM like a good, fellow. 
 The suggestion of this airtiole is that Payn is a lobbyist by reason 
 of his taking compensation for atttendinig to legislation. Mr. 
 Quigg does not take oompensaition by salary by the year for 
 attending to legislaitiion, but takes the votes of the firemen of the 
 city of New York as his consideration, and comes toi the Legis- 
 latuire to lobby anid pay them ' for their votes by taking the 
 money out of the treasury of the Htate of New York by legislation. 
 The transaction on the part of Mr. Quigg has no element of 
 dishonesty in it, and financially it is better foir Ma Quigg, but 
 when Mr. Quigg draw® lines upon Mr. Payn as a lobbyist, in my 
 opinion, Mr. Payn has him at a disadvantage; for Mr. Paiyn cer- 
 tainly in advocating legislation in faivor of his pritvate employers 
 or promoting legislation in their interest or trying to defeat 
 legislation which is against their interest, certainly does not 
 directly reach into the tneasiury tar thei purpose of paying for 
 his own candidacy Ion soone puibllic office; and yet there is no 
 sort of doubt that precisely that kind of contract was made by 
 Ml'. Quigg, who was decidedily] in earnest in fulfilling the con- 
 tract; and if there is any lintei of distilnction between taking from 
 the treasiufry money by legislation to pay for political support for 
 himself, and the moral quality of Mr. Payn's relation toi legdlsla- 
 tion it certainly is to the disadvantage of Mr. Quigg and not of 
 Mr. Payn. Mr. Quigg, in Albany, thromgh the lobbies of the 
 hotels and in this Legislature, solicited support for twoi measures, 
 particularly the judicial sales bill. He says he advocated that 
 bill upon its merits, in gratitude for political services rendered 
 the previous fall by the gentliemen whoi were interested in the 
 bill. Certainly, Mr. Quigg, as the editor of a New York news- 
 paper, hald no time, unless there was a personal interest on his 
 part in the bill, to comie to Albany to advocate sdiioh a bill as 
 that, which made a change in the place of holdtag judicial sales. 
 Inhere was some political ambition on the part of Mr. Quigg 
 which moved him to come from his comfortable office in the city 
 of New York to the halls of legislation at Albany for iim purpose 
 of advoicating that bill. He came and he came repeatedly and 
 tbe bill hung fire in the Senate of the State (until on the 17th dlay 
 of April, 1895, in the committee on cities, two SeiniaJtorsi, Oogge- 
 shall and Kaines, voted against reporting the judicial sales bill 
 to the Seniate. Suddenly, on the morning of the 18th, ithiis editoirial 
 and news item flashed before the people of the State aC New 
 
504 
 
 York. It is written in doiuible heads; it is leaded from beginning 
 to end. It is semsiational iln its canstruiction to th.e highest degipee. 
 One would think that there had! been scaddenly exploded, in the 
 editorial rooms of thiarti newspapeip news of the most startling 
 desciription, and that it had been got into type! iin the greatest 
 haste. But the fact is that the expioisioia had been of the 
 judioiail sales bill that atfternoon; bnt the piuibliciaition did not 
 refer to the judicial sales bill, but to another bill, the firemen's 
 salary bill, which had been safely lodged iln the statuites of lihe 
 Stalte of New York since th!e 16th diaiy of Mai'ch preceding. Every 
 word ol infoa?matioii that MJr. Qnigg had with regard to that 
 salary bill, on the 17th day of April, when he wrote this antilde, 
 he had on the 15th day of March preceding, more than -a month 
 before the publication. 
 
 I have collected the dates at which Bothenhausler carried to 
 him these different interviews which he had, and they all ante- 
 date the 16th day of March. And Mr. Quigg quietly sat in his 
 sanctum and received this startling information of Senators' con- 
 nection with the conniption fund, as he claims, withourti writing 
 a line about it, from the 15th day of March until the 18th day of 
 April. The salary bill became a law on the 15th day of March, 
 and still he did not use, for the puMic benefit, this infomuation 
 which he had been gathering early in the mom^th of March. This 
 sen duel upon the walls of tlie State is derelict in his duty. Why 
 did he not immediately exploit tkese remarkable revelations to 
 the world, so that these Senators and firemen engaged in this 
 corrapt scheme could be inmaedlately exposed and punished? 
 Had Mr. Quigg made his publication at the time that the informa- 
 tion camie to him, as a matter of news, in a legitimate way, with- 
 out sensational headlines and leaded columns, everybody would 
 have said, "Well done, Mr. Quigg; let the investigation proceed." 
 
 A call for an investigatiloin' within the lines of the facts which 
 were suggested by Mr. Eothenhausler to him would have been 
 strictly within the line of editorial duty, and with regard to it 
 no one would have made any complaint or could have made any 
 eomplaint. But this man Quigg cares little for public justice or 
 for public duty. He had just become warm in his new and com- 
 fortable seat; he had assumed charge of a gneat newspaper, as 
 manager and editor-in-chief, as a benefaction from gentlemen 
 who, in the party divisions of the Republican party, were antag- 
 onistic to the threie Senators in question. This man Quigg must 
 return services for the favor which has been conferred upon him, 
 for the recognition which has been given him by his promotion 
 from the street to the high, responsible function of editor of a 
 great aewspapeir. And this final attack, which was made upon 
 
5(^ 
 
 the IStSh. of April, was the first development in the line of pay- 
 ment of the price whioh was expected to be paid by Mr. Quigg 
 for the fa-Tors which had been conferred upon bim by his newly- 
 fonnd employers. 
 
 Having gathered all his information before the 15th day of 
 March, he held it, maJdng no use of it, or maidng no' complailit 
 to the public or to the Senate whose dignity had been outraged, if 
 the facts were true, until the time came when^ neither by threat 
 nor entreaty, these Senators could be forced to vote for the 
 judicial sales bill, in which he was so deeply interested; and 
 when that vote was given on the 17th of April, and not till then, 
 Mr. Quigg determined that he would take satisfaction out of 
 these Senators. 
 
 Let me read a little from his evidence: 
 
 "' After I got my dinner (I think 1 began about 7 o'clock, and I 
 think I had entirely concluded at 8:30 or 9 o'clock), I dictated 
 them,. I will say frankly that the action of the two Senators on 
 the judicial. sales bill affected my writing the article. 
 
 " Q. When did that come to your knowledge? A. In the after- 
 noon or late at night; if it was in the afternoon paper, I was 
 aware of how tlie vote was taken,; I knew in the afternoon that 
 the judicial sales bill had not been reported, and the second 
 consideration that determined me toi write the article was the 
 action of the judiciary committee on the judicial sales bill and 
 the action of the Senate on the reorganization bill. 
 
 "Q. At that time yon knew Raines had voted for the police 
 reorganization bill? A. Yes. 
 
 "Q. So far, in using his name in tiie article, yon were not 
 moved by the consideration of his action in regard to the police 
 reorganization bill? A. No, sir. 
 
 " Q. You were moved solely with regard to his action on the 
 judicial sales bill? A. No. 
 
 "Q. You just told us you were moved by two considerations: 
 The action of th© Senate in regard to the reorganization Mil and 
 the judicial sales bill. A. That is it, precisely. 
 
 ''Q. Then it was not, in his case, the reorganization bill, but 
 solely the judicial sales bill? A. I can say exactly what 1 mean; 
 Senator Raines' name had been communicated to me as one of 
 tlie three Senators who had been mentioned in the conversation 
 between firemen Smith and Rothenhausler; I concluded to print 
 this article, finally, when the raformation came from Albany of 
 the votes, of the action of the judiciary committee upon the real 
 estate bill, and of the action of the Senate upon the reorganiza- 
 tion bill ; I thought it was time to print tlhe article. 
 P. 64 
 
5oe 
 
 " Q. In regard to kimi, the moivxag eonsideratioii was tie 
 judicial sales bill? A. I shall not admit anything in regard to 
 liim, as disitinguishjed from; the rest of them." 
 
 Mr. Quigg further testified that up to the time of Hie publica- 
 tion of the article he had never learned that Raines or Ooggesliall 
 were opposed to the salary bill. "Eaines and Ooggeshall told 
 me they wiere in favor of the bill." 
 
 He was asked whether, if Senators Raines and Coggesihal] had 
 \ oted in favor of t!he report of the judicial sales bUl from the 
 judiciary committee, the article would have appeared on April 
 IS, 1893, he said it might not have appeared on that day, but 
 thought it might some time. 
 
 ITius, Mr. Qhairnian, it is apparent that instantly upon the 
 receipt of the dispatches that the judicial sales bill had, been 
 negatived by the vote of these twO' Senators in the cities commit- 
 tee, on tlie 17th of April, Mr. Quigg sat at his editorial desk and 
 wrote the article accusing these Senators of a wrong transaction 
 in regard to their action on the Paivey bill, which had been placed 
 on the statute books for nearly a month. These facts are so 
 suggestive that it is nt^edless for me to stop to draw the inference 
 I'rom themi. Tttie heading of the article, as well as the body of 
 it, point to the theory that this was part of their punishment for 
 Iheir vote upon the judiciall sales bill, or to coerce them into 
 future favorable action upon that same judicial sales bill. 
 
 But liere is another matter which I deem it quite essential 
 that I should occupy a little time upon, and the lateness of the 
 hour and the prolonged session of the committee compel me to 
 skip from point to point unsatisfactorily. 
 
 Immediately upon the death of McCabe, an attempt was made 
 in concert to deceive the public and this committee by the sug- 
 gestion that he had been the custodian of the secrets of the 
 officers of the fire department of the city of New York Avith 
 regard to this particular alleged corruption fund. 
 
 Fire Ck)mmi&sioner LaGrrange, called to the witness stand, said 
 that he had been interrogated by reporters for some time with 
 regard to what he thought of the death of MoCabe, and there 
 upon the witness stand, in the most dramatic manner, made 
 the statement that McCabe had been an Irishman, that he could 
 not be an Informer, and so he was dead. 
 
 The learned counsel insisted that this man McCabe had never 
 done a wrong thing in his life,, and that it was unpossible that 
 McCabe could have committed suicide to protect himself, but 
 that it was done to protect oijker persons whbl had itntmsted him 
 with the secret of their felonious conduct in relation to this bill. 
 
 The Press newspaper exploited the theory that it was such a 
 suiQide, immediately on its oocurrence. No other paper in the 
 
507 
 
 city of New York did it; but tlxEut tlieo(ry was placed upon' record 
 by Mr. Quigg in the columns of Ms newsipaper, for tlie purpose of 
 prejudicing the truth, which this committee were seeking to 
 o;<stablish. 
 
 We were, therefore, forced to take llr. LaG-range as witness 
 and exhaust his information on the subject, and we developed a 
 singular state of facts, extending from that time down to the 
 conciuding piece of evidence taken from Mr. Quigg to-night. 
 
 What are those facts? Facts which established beyond a 
 peradventure that the suicide of Joto McOabe was for the pro 
 tectiom of John MoOabe against the disclosures which would be 
 made of his own infamous conduct and of a career infamous iu 
 its character. If the testimony in this case shows that fact, it 
 brings out in clearer outline the boldl and unscrupulous malice 
 which has inspired the attempt to prejudice these Senators and 
 the body of the fire department of New York, by the suggestions 
 that that suicide was in order to protect them against the rerela- 
 tion oifl their misdeeds. When Mn La G-range was examined, he 
 had a pajper in his hand which I struggled wlthl him fon the 
 possession of, having couirteously returned it to him at his 
 request. I did not wish the paper, but wished to develop the 
 man La G-ramge. He had thrown into this investigation the per- 
 sonality of La Grange, and by the repetitiom of am opinion, in 
 fact, had undertaken to stab, in the interests of this newspaper. 
 The Press, the reputa,tions not only of the cubs oifi which he 
 claimed to bie the bear, but of the Senators who were there under 
 investigatSom. I asked him whether the facts related to previon® 
 years which were contained in that paper whichi McOabe had 
 dictated or which he had taken down from conTOrsations with 
 McOabe, and it is on ^record with what reluctance the man 
 admitted the facts. I asked him when the conversatiom had 
 occunred which was reciorded in that paper. He said' it wa& the 
 day after the publication of The Press article, that McOabe came 
 into his office and commenced to unfold to him what? What 
 was on that paper; and I carefully examined! that paper as he 
 dictated' it to the stenographer, and then what doi I find that 
 McOabe had disclosed to La Grange? He had disclosed to 
 La Granlge three distincit briberies in previous .years. With 
 regard to 1895, he haid disclosed notthilng. The statement had 
 contained (which is common fieport among the officers, and they 
 all know it, and there is no concealment ablouft it) that there was 
 $6,000 raised and placed in the bank. "Ask Oroker; he will 
 tell the truth." That is the substance of what had been told 
 by McOabe to La Grange on the day succeeding this publication 
 on April 18th'. 
 
" Q. Mr. La Grajnge, did Leary's name come into th.e communi- 
 ca,tion, between McOaibe and yon? A. No. 
 
 "Q. Did any transaction between MciOabe and Leary and 
 Oroker and Shaw come into your communicatioin. from McOabe? 
 A. No. 
 
 " Q. Is there anything wrdltten there with regard to Leary ; with 
 regard to Oroker; with regard to Shaw? A. No." 
 
 The only thilng that Mr. McCabe had told La Grange on the 
 lay following that p-utolioation; was: "Ask Oroker, he will tell 
 the truth." And John McGabe had gone fnom the presence of 
 La Grange without disiclosing two transactions wMlch are shown 
 to b.aTie been at that time within his knowledge. First, the 
 triansa;ction with Fergus iln Februairy, when he went to Fergus 
 and asked Fergus to see the officers of the men's akssociation, in 
 order to get Leary interested in the passage oif the bill through 
 the Legislature. Second, his soMoitation of that joib in behalf of 
 Leary in Ocftober or November, 1894, aud March, 1895. 
 
 The transaction between Fergus and Mr. McOabe is most 
 impoartant in this case for the reason that it reveals: First, the 
 subject-matter upon whilch! Mr. McCabe naiade no statement to 
 La Grange. Second, the transaiCtioidi which first identified him 
 ivith tiie attempt to introduce the lobbyist Leary into the busi- 
 less of the Pavey salary bill. 
 
 " He asked me to go and see these people for somebody else, — 
 I man named Leary and George Norton. 
 
 " Q. "WTien was this? A. I can't recollect the date of the month; 
 it was in October or November" (I read from the testimony of 
 Eugene J. Fergus). 
 
 "Q. May have been later in the winter? A. No, sir. 
 
 " Q. How many times did you talk about it? A. Very often. 
 
 " Q. Running down how many months? A. I can't say. 
 
 "Q. As late as March? A. No, sir; I don't suppose alter 
 Oecember. 
 
 " Q. Tell the exact conversation between you amd) McOabe? A. 
 [ can't recollect it now. 
 
 "Q. Give your best recollection. A. He said he understood 
 ve were going to have al bill introduiced' for an inca^ease of salary; 
 le said lit wais a popular measure and ought to gol throuigh- all 
 ■ight; I don't recollect anytih!in>g else. 
 
 " Q. What about Leary and the rest? A. He told me he knew 
 leveral men who would help the bill along; he asked me wh^ 
 lad control of it and I told him I did not know ; that I was not 
 n the association; I was a suspended member; I was suspended 
 sight months; I diild go at one time a few days aifiter I had! this 
 (onversation; I did go and see Fireman Oliffoird, bnit I guess he 
 or gets it; hie was busy at the time. 
 
509 
 
 "Q. S*ate the canvepsation with ClilBEord? K. I said to bilm 
 that I knew several men that would take care gf the bill, and 
 then I mentioned the chiefs name, biut I did) it without his 
 peranlssioii, and the fact that he would be in Albany, and alsio of 
 his halving been an inspection officer in the department, it would 
 help us with the bill; Clifford says, ' I have got nothing to do with 
 that;' he says, 'I will siee about it;' that is all the conversation 
 I had with him. 
 
 " Q. Youi mentitaned their mames? A. I did not; I said I knew 
 of two men. 
 
 " Q. You referred to McOabe and Leary? A. I didn't mention 
 their names; those ajre the ones I meant. 
 
 "Q. This was in November or Decemiber? A. I think in 
 November. 
 
 "Q. After that tikne did youi talk with McOabe about this 
 man Leary? A. He never mentioned Ms name for a good while 
 after that up to lately. I 
 
 "Q. How lately? A. The day he died. 
 
 " Q. Tell us the conversation you had with htm that moimiing." 
 
 And now comes the balance of the Fergus transaction with 
 McCabe. This ife the only, person who talked with McOabe on 
 the day that he died, who has been a witness in thisi case, and 
 the conversation explains that suicide more completely than 
 any conversation or testimony in this case. 
 
 "He was eatinigi wheni I went in; I had about five minutes to 
 spare; he told me to sit down, and when he got through eating 
 he got up and sat down by the window; he said, 'Ferg, I am 
 ruined ; ' and I said, ' That is tooi bad ; ' he said, ' I am going on 
 the witness stand;' and he said, 'Den. Leary will go on the 
 witness stand and so will Oroker; ' and I sat there for awhile 
 in silence witii him and then had toi go'." 
 
 And right at this point there comes a suggestion which is 
 worthy of consideration, and I stop a moment for its con- 
 sideration. 
 
 "DM you have any talk about Oroker and Leary? A. He 
 said he might be put on the witness stand, land the conversation 
 drifted off then to his boy ; he gave me some tickets to- go to an 
 entertainment that his boy was in." 
 
 The past record of John MaCabe, his transactions with the 
 lobbyist Leary twice during that winter in trying to get a 
 corrupt dteal with the flnemen for him were about to be exploited 
 on the witness stand' iin, New York, and this son, the apple of 
 his eye, who was acting in public entertainments, was on his 
 mind at this very nnoment that monning when John McCabe told 
 
510 
 
 this man Fergus "I am, niSned; Orokea? is going on the stand 
 and Leiary is going on the stand, and I am mined." 
 
 "Q. Did he say anything aibbut Leiairy telling tihe truth on 
 the witness stand? A. I don't recollecti that he did. 
 
 " Q. Did h'e say anything about Orokei? tielling the truth? A. 
 Yes; he did; he spoke about Chief Croker; he said Croker 
 would go on tihe witness stand and tell the truth; he alsio s4id 
 to me, 'ainybody whoi does not tell the truth when he goes on 
 the stand is foolish.' " 
 
 Anyone who has been faonlliar with the investigations of the 
 past year in the; city of New York, oondncted by some of the 
 gentlemen on this committee in particular, knows that it is ex- 
 ceedingly foolish. It was established, as a matter of sound 
 common sense, that the truth was better told, and the fact that 
 that was so and had dawned on the mind of John MoOabe in the 
 year 1895 is not surprising. 
 
 " Q. Was anything said on that subject on the morning when 
 you last saw him? A. No, sir; only what I just saSd,- and I sa-^^- 
 he was lannoyed; he said he hadn't been sleeping; said he didn't 
 sleep well ; and he stopped eating almost as soon as I went in ; 
 then he got up and) sat in a chair by the window and then said 
 he was ruined; I forget whether he said that before or after he 
 sat down; he said Leary was going on the stand. 
 
 "Q. On the Tuesday before did he talk about Croker going 
 on the witness stand? A. He saild' Croker was going on the 
 stand andl going to tell the truth; he says, 'I think I will be 
 put on the stand too;' he said also to me, 'Ferg, be careful 
 what yon say; don't get mixed up in this; there is going to be 
 trouble;' and I saild, 'I don't know anything about it; I can't 
 get mixed up in it.' 
 
 " Q. In that connection did he say that Croker was going on the 
 stand that night? A. I understood that night that Oroker was 
 going on the stand the next day. 
 
 •'Q. And tell the tmth abont it? A. That is what he said. 
 
 "Q. And that there was going to be ti-onble? A. He says to 
 me, ' There is going to be tronble, and if I know anything don't 
 talk;' and I told him; that I did not know anything.' 
 
 "Q. He advised you to tell what you knew? A. 'Keep still.' 
 
 ".Q. All yon knew was that yon had been to Clifford and 
 others for McOabe, and that Was all you knew about it? A. I 
 knew nothing more about it, only what I read In the newspaper. 
 
 "Q. All you knew was the fact that you had! been to Clifford? 
 A'. That is not what he meant at all. 
 
 "Q. Hr' told youi if you Imew anything to keep still? A. He 
 didn't mean Clifford; what he meant was whaif was being pub 
 llshed at that tiJme in the papers. 
 
511 
 
 "Q. That is wliat Ee wanted you to keep still about? A. 
 About the oflaceo's' amendment; I told him I knew nothimg at 
 all about it. 
 
 "Q. So you would not be called to the witness stand? A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 " Q. On Wednesday iMrning Ee told you Croker was to be 
 called? A. Thjursday morning. 
 
 "Q. He told you Oroker would be called and you might be 
 called? A. He told me that on Tuesday night; that Oroker 
 was goimg to tell the truth, and on Thninsday morning he said 
 he was going on the stand. 
 
 " Q. Didn't he say then 1iiat he was going toi tell the triuth? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 " Q. He said ' Croker is going on tihe stand and I am ruined? ' 
 A. He said Croker and Den. Leary were too, and he said he 
 was ruined." 
 
 So that six differemt times in suiccessiou I went through the 
 witness Fergus for the purpose of getting from him the explana- 
 tion which he would put on couTersation which he had with 
 McCabe that morning; and six times he said, "Oroker is going 
 on the stand and Leary is going on the stand, and T, MeC;ibe, 
 am ruined." 
 
 What were the transactions to which John McCabe had been 
 a party? He had been to the fljre department officers of the 
 uniformed force in November and introduced to them the propo- 
 siition that they should employ a man by the name ofl Leary, and 
 one Jolm Noarton (?) to take charge of the Pavey bill and raise 
 a corruption fund, as he knew was the inevitable result of em- 
 ploymg Leary, for he was a man of affairs, used to being in 
 Albany, ajnd when Leary was repudiated he had gone toi Oroker 
 and Shaw; and while I can not stop to read their evidence upon 
 this particular point, it is fresh in the minds~"of the committee, 
 and you will rememben that John McCabe procured the meet- 
 ing between Leary and Oroker and brought them together. 
 
 1 have the testimony of Oroker and Shaw on that point, and 
 I beg you will indulge me for a moment while I read it. 
 
 "Well, what did McCabe tell you; tell what McCabe said?" 
 
 This is at the time or rather just before the conversadou with 
 Leary, because the suiggestion was made that McOabe was not 
 present at the conversation with Leary, but innocently (?) 
 brought them together; and Mr. Quigg upon the witness stand 
 denied that McOaibe could be imputed with blame with regard to 
 the Leary transaction, because he hadn't listened to the con- 
 versation. 
 
 "Q. Tell what McCabe said? A. He told us that Mr. Leairy 
 could have the amerdment passed anB could guarantee it to 
 
512 
 
 be passed; as the bill now mbood in Albany, it was in the bands 
 af Mr. Payn, and he didm't thaink Mr. Payn haM. influence enouigh 
 to have any bill passedL 
 
 " Q. McCabe told you that? A. Yes, sir; McOabe told us. 
 
 " Q. Now, previous to that statement by ex-Ghief McCabe ,to 
 you, had you heard of Mr. Payn in connecition with the officers' 
 amendment? A. I had"not, sir." 
 
 After stating the conversation with Leary Oroker said : 
 
 "Q. Well, what did yon. or Shaw say in reply to that? A. 
 Well, we let him alone; we left him alone and bid him good-day, 
 and Chief McCabe did the same, and we walked around to Six- 
 teenth street from Foxirth avenue and McCabe left us, and we 
 talked over the niatter." 
 
 A: second meeting was held. The pariies met at the same 
 place. Chief McCabe present: 
 
 "Q. Did you meet them?" Says Cnoker, "I did, sir." 
 
 After Shaw had told them that he could not do anything for 
 them, the question was put: 
 
 "Q. What did "McCabe say? A. I don't remember. 
 
 '■Q. You don't remember? A. No', sir; I don't remember. 
 
 " Q. And that is the extent of your acquaintance with Leary 
 and of your conversatiom with him? A. Thoise are the only 
 times I have ever seen hilm. 
 
 " Q. Now, are yotui quite sure that Chief Shaw was with' you 
 on that second occasion, or is that only your own talk? A. No, 
 sir ; I never met hilm alone. 
 
 " Q. You spoke in youse direct examination of his mentioning 
 him as a lobbyist? A. McCabe introdnced us to hibi as that. 
 
 " Q. Well, did he mention him as being a, loblbyist in his 
 previous conversation with you? A. That was the first time 
 Chief McCabe ever meaitioned him to us. 
 
 "Q. Well, I am. now distinguishing between what he said to 
 Shaw and you? A. Before we were introduced? 
 
 " Q. Before the introduction and the subsequent conversation ? 
 A. Yes; he told us he was a lobbyist and introdnced us as such. 
 
 " Q. You mean inti-odnced him as such? A. Introduced him 
 as such ; yes, sir." 
 
 After the second meeting, they went away in this fashion: 
 
 " We stood on the southwest corner for awhile. 
 
 "Q. McCabe and Shaw and you? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 '•'Q. Well, now, what did you talk about? A. Talked about 
 the same conversation in relation to the bill and general topics 
 of the day, etc. 
 
 "Q. You talked about the conversation that you had bad 
 with Leary? A. Yes, sir. 
 
513 
 
 "Q. The three of you? AL Yes, sir. 
 
 "Q. Well, what did ywui say? A. Well, I don't know mow^ 
 as I can recall the conversation; nothing in particulaiT, only just 
 a;bout what I have related; we went over tiie whole conversai- 
 tion again. 
 
 "Q. Yes; you did? A. Talked oven what Me. Leary said he 
 could do, and the chief guaranteed his word was good and that 
 he couJd do what he said he could. 
 
 "Q. And then you and Shaw said what? A. That we wotuld 
 see what we could do. 
 
 " Q. You told McCabe that? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 "Q. Well, then, it was not until youi had left Leairy that you 
 had said that? A. Oh, yes; we said that to Leary, too; and then 
 we said the same thing to him when he said to us, ' See what you 
 can doi;' and we said, 'AH right; we wUl.'" 
 
 Now, without going through the evidence of Shaw, which is 
 of similar import, it is evident that John McCabe and Leary 
 had a deal together, and that the developments upon the wit- 
 ness stand by Crokes and Shaw, of the transactions which had 
 occurred between Leary and McCabe piroved McOabe to have 
 endeavored to put up a corrupt deal between Leary and the 
 fire department officers of the city of New York. Those words 
 which John McCabe uttered to Fergus, " Croker and Leary are 
 going on the stand and I am ruined;" substantially establish 
 the proposition which I started out to establish, that John 
 McCabe was a guilty man in the transaction which he had with 
 Leary, as would appear by the testimony of two honest firemen, 
 Croker and Shaw, upon the witness stand. Mr. McCabe was 
 called to Mr. Eoot's office and had a conversation with Mr. Boot, 
 and then, for the first time, it dawned upon him that the letter 
 from Shaw to Leary had been given up and the whole trans- 
 action with Leary had been exposed. And it was exposed by 
 whom? By the men with whom he had been dealing, and the 
 result was his declaration on the morning of his suicide: "Leary 
 and Oroker are going on the stand and I am ruined." 
 
 I regret very much that I have not had the opportunity of 
 presenting, except in this desultory manner, the facts with re- 
 gard to these men going upon the stand, and with regard to 
 McCabe committing suicide, in the presence of Mr. Boot, who had 
 such unlimited confldenoe in the character of this man, and of 
 Mr. La G-range, who was so confident that this man could not 
 be an infoirmer, when he took dbwn on paper three specific acts 
 of bribery informed about "by this man. If there is something 
 peculiar in the antagonism of the Msh people toward informers, 
 he had done the act of the informer in private, in the office of 
 F. 65 
 
514 ' 
 
 La Grramge, oe the day of the puMieatian in The Press of this 
 matter; and beiinig an informeir! in puiblUc is not different in its 
 moral quality from being an informer in the private office of 
 La Grange. He had stabbed, according to La Orange, by his 
 revelations of the transactions during three years previous the 
 oificeris who had trusted! him in those years; and the suggestion 
 of La Grange on the stand that this man had Irish! blood and 
 could not be an informer is strangely at variance with thie facta 
 But La Grange and Quigg were guilty of gross: deception in 
 giving the impression he had betrayed anyone in this matter. 
 
 Now, then, in' a few moments I shall close the remaiTks I have 
 to maike, first asking your indulgence for a few minuites upon 
 the qiiiesti'on of the raising of the fund by the firemen in the 
 city of New York. The diepartment has been so assailed' in this 
 article that it would be disrespecttfuJ to the members not to 
 mention that. It Is idle to take the gossip which these witnesses 
 have pnt before us, of three or four fire-houses in tihe city of 
 New York, and digaify it as credible evidence. It is all hear- 
 say stuff that would not be heard in any court of justice. And 
 it is idle to spend any time upon an analysis of the declarations 
 of these officers and men in the city of New York. The fa«t 
 remains, Mr. Chaiirmain, that 36 officers have been called — 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — I doni't think it is very necessarry toi go 
 into it very far. 
 
 Mr. Raines. — I am not going to. Twenty-six officers have 
 been called, no two from the same company in the department, 
 who testified su'ccesisively with regard to the fact that not only 
 had no fund been raised to their knowledge, Wutti no consultia- 
 tion as to the raising of a fund had ever beem attempted in the 
 department. These men upon the witness stand, by their candot 
 and evident high chairaciter, showed the -utter impossibility of 
 their having been dragged iuto the toils of any corrupt scheme 
 of this kind. It is useless for me to dilate upon the character 
 of these men. ' 
 
 Senator O'Connor. — We are familiar with all that evidence. 
 
 Mr. Baines. — You are familiar with the evSldence, and wihtem 
 I state that 26 of them have testified upon this inquiry, it is 
 useless to suggest ^ your that no fund was raJsed' with regard 
 to this bill or in relation to it. 
 
 Mr. Sheffield said that, to the whole extent of hi® information, 
 he conld say that there was no fund raised, and he had made 
 inquiry as a fire commiissioner. La Grange had made inquiry 
 as a fire commissioner, andl avowed the same result — that he 
 had discovered no person who oould give any information with 
 regard to the matter. All tie processes of investigation whi'ch 
 have been resorted to up to the closing moment of this investi- 
 
gation have established the fact, that theire was never a dollar 
 contributed in eonnection with^ the salary act or the officers' 
 amendment. 
 
 There is just one thing before I close. I must reciur to the 
 fact that Mr. Quigg concealed throughout the course of this 
 investigation, the fact from the committee of the transaction 
 between Leamy, Croker and Shaw, and the revelationi of it to 
 him, until the very end of the investigation on their part, when 
 they called Shaw to the witness stand, knowing that Shaw was 
 in attendance here, under our subpoena^ for the puirpose of 
 testifying. Mr. Quigg, however, in his article exploiting the 
 suicide of this man McOabe, giving his theory of it, utterly 
 ignoired and intentionally ignored the suggestion that McOabe 
 had been engaged in these previous deals with the firemen or an 
 attempt to bring them into corrupt relational with this man 
 Leary; and the neglect of the subpoenaing of Mr. Leacy as a 
 witness, and the treatment of it on the other) side in this case 
 is isufftcdent to show that there has been no desire to have ii full, 
 fair and complete investigation of this matter from the stand- 
 point of the committee. 
 
 On the contrary, it is now developed to-night that after the 
 death of John McCaibe, Mr. Leary andi Mr. Norton were in ses- 
 sion at The Holland with Mr. Quigg and could have been sun- 
 poenaed here, if he desired the testimony of leither of them in 
 this investigation. 
 
 I have been indulged by the committee beyond all limit, as 
 we are approaching 2 o'clock in the night, yet I regret very 
 much that I have been compelled to speak soi hiurriedly and 
 imperfectly many thoughts which, at anotheri time, would have 
 been arranged in better order, and perhaps would have been 
 more useful to the committee upon the subject-matter of this 
 investigation. Neither can I at this time comment in the way 
 in which I would desire tot upon many things connected with 
 this investigation. I must leave the matter now at this hour 
 in the hands of the committee, hoping that youiri report will be 
 such as to leave the people of the State of New York to under- 
 stand that these Senators aire not the ones to fail in their duty, 
 and that New York firemen are not the ones to engage ini cor- 
 rupt practices, and that a certain newspaper proprietor in New 
 York city, for the purpose of revenge against persons who had 
 not favored his pritvate measures, has used the columns of his 
 newspaper to malign good and honest men.