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 Mornings amonjo the Jesuits at Rome. 
 
 3 1924 031 387 149 
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MORNINGS AMONG THE JESUITS AT ROME. 
 
.^^4 amang t^s ^ 
 
 ^M? ^ B^Ejjrr 
 
 °'no^. 
 
 FLEET STREET, i»° HANOVER STREET 
 
 MDCCCLII. 
 
MORNINGS AMONG THE 
 JESUITS AT ROME. 
 
 . Sfs"*-*" BY THE 
 
 REV. m!^^HOBART SEYMOUR, M.A. 
 
 FIFTH EDITION. 
 
 FLEET STREET, and HANOVER STREET, 
 LONDON : MDCCOLII. 
 
L. Seeley^ Thames I>iUon. 
 
CONTENTS. 
 
 INTRODUCTION. ...... pClQe 1 
 
 CHAPTER I. 
 
 THE OEDER OP THE JESDITS THEIR SUPERIORITY IN LEARNING, 
 
 AND CHARACTER, AND EXERTION THE GREAT AND MASTBR- 
 
 PRINOIPLE OF THE SYSTEM ; UNLIMITED OBEDIENCE — THE CON- 
 STITUTIONS ON THE POINT OP OBEDIENCE CONVERSATION 
 
 WITH A JESUIT ON THIS SUBJECT CONFIRMATION OF THE 
 
 WORST THINGS CHARGED AGAINST THEM SINGULAR RULE 
 
 RESPECTING MASSES EARLY ADMISSION TO THE VOWS THE 
 
 MORAL CHARACTER OF THE JESUITS EXTRACTS FROM THE 
 
 PAPAL BULLS— NOTE. .... page 14 
 
 CHAPTER II. 
 
 AN ORDINATION A VISIT OP THE JESUITS THE LAYING ON OP 
 
 HANDS THE PRIESTLY POWER OF ABSOLUTION AND OF SACRI- 
 FICE THE RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT AT OXFORD AND IN GER- 
 MANY THE NATURE OF THE ABSOLVING POWER — THE OPINIONS 
 
 OP THE TWO CHURCHES COMPARED NOTE. . ptlgB 46 
 
 CHAPTER III. 
 
 THE GEOSSNESS OF SOME SUPERSTITIONS— CONTRAST BETWEEN 
 
 THE RELIGION OF THE ENGLISH AND THE ITALIANS THE 
 
 VIRTUE OP MIRACULOUS PICTURES A CONVERT IN A NUNNERY 
 
 PARALLEL BETWEEN EVE AND MARY THE RELIGION OF 
 
 CHRIST BECOMING THE RELIGION OF MARY — MARY MORE MER- 
 CIFUL THAN CHRIST. . . . . page 73 
 
CONTENTS. 
 
 CHAPTER IV. 
 
 A VISIT FROM A CONVERT TO ROMANISM ARGUMENT DRAVTN 
 
 PROM HIS EXPERIENCE OP HAPPINESS MOTIVE TO REST EN- 
 TIRELY ON THE INFALLIBILITY OP THE CHURCH THE IN- 
 FALLIBLE TRIBUNAL AMONG PROTESTANTS CONTRASTED WITH 
 
 THAT AMONG ROMANISTS ARGUMENTS FOR INFALLIBILITY THE 
 
 SCRIPTURES TRADITION THE FATHERS. . page 98 
 
 CHAPTER V. 
 
 THE DEATH OP A CONVERT ADMINISTRATION OP FIVE SACRA- 
 MENTS PRAYER THROUGH MART HEARD SOONER THAN THROUGH 
 
 CHRIST THE MADONNA OP THE AUGUSTINIANS THE MEANS 
 
 BY WHICH SAINTS HEAR PRAYERS GOD A MEDIATOR TO THE 
 
 SAINTS THE INFLUENCE OF THE WORSHIP OF MARY MARY 
 
 MORE COMPASSIONATE THAN CHRIST THE REPLY OP THE 
 
 JESUITS. ...... puge 132 
 
 CHAPTER VI. 
 
 OBJECTIONS TO THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND ALLEGED DANGER TO 
 
 SALVATION IN REMAINING IN A CHURCH SO NEW IN HER 
 
 ORIGINAL HER CONTRAST IN THAT RESPECT WITH THE CHURCH 
 
 OP ROME ^WHETHER SHE ORIGINATED WITH THE MONK AUGUS- 
 TINE FROM ROME OR WAS POUNDED AT THE REPOEMATION 
 
 WHETHER HER REFORMS WERE ARBITRARY OR ON FIXED RULE 
 
 WHETHER HER DOCTRINES BE ANCIENT OR MODERN 
 
 WHETHER HER DOCTRINES BE ADMITTED BY THE. CHURCH OP 
 
 ROME COMPARATIVE SAFETY OF THE MEMBERS OF THE TWO 
 
 CHURCHES WHETHER THE CHURCH OP ENGLAND BE A BRANCH 
 
 OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHETHER HER REFORMERS BE 
 
 JUSTIFIED WHETHER SHE OR THE CHURCH_ OF ROME WERE 
 
 GUIiTY OF SCHISM AT THE REFORMATION. . page 167 
 
CONTENTS. 
 
 CHAPTER VII. 
 
 INVITATION TO A DISCUSSION THE PEOHIBITION OP THE SCRIP- 
 TURES AT ROME SALVATION ONLY IN THE CHURCH OF ROME 
 
 INFALLIBILITY OF THE POPES NECESSARY TO BE BELIEVED 
 
 WHETHER THERE BE SALVATION IN THE CHURCH OP ENGLAND 
 
 THE CHURCH OP ROME HAS NEVER CLAIMED INFALLIBILITY 
 
 THE REPLY OF THE JESUITS. . . . page 206 
 
 CHAPTER VIII. 
 
 CONVERSATION WITH THE PROFESSOR OF CANON LAW FETE AT 
 
 THE Jesuits' church — the question of infallibility re- 
 siding IN A council or in A POPE SEVEN SIGNS OR TESTS 
 
 by which TO DISCERN INFALLIBILITY UNSUITABLENESS OF 
 
 THE SCRIPTURES AS A RULE OF FAITH THE SAME ARGUMENT 
 
 APPLIED TO THE PAPAL DECISIONS THE REPLY OF THE 
 
 JESUITS. ...... page 237 
 
 CHAPTER IX. 
 
 OPINIONS AT ROME RESPECTING THE MOVEMENT IN THE ANGLICAN 
 
 CHURCH SEPARATION OP THE TEMPORAL FROM THE SPIRITUAL 
 
 POWER OF THE POPES ARGUMENT DERIVED PROM THE SUCCESS 
 
 OF THE ROMISH MISSIONS AN INDIAN TRIBE CONVERTED 
 
 THEIR HOLY LIVES WONDERFUL MIRACLE CREDULITY PRE- 
 VALENT AT ROME INCONSISTENCY BETWEEN TWO DOCTRINES 
 
 OF THAT CHURCH THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION; HUMAN 
 
 MERIT INDULGENCES THE REPLY OP THE JESUITS, page 267 
 
VUl CONTENTS. 
 
 CHAPTER X. 
 
 THE OEltBACT OF THE CLEKGY A NEW BEATITDDE GRACE GIVEN 
 
 IN THE SACRAMENT OF MATRIMONY ALLEGED CERTAINTY IN THE 
 
 CHURCH OF ROME CONSECRATION OP THE MASS UNCERTAIN 
 
 OTHER UNCERTAINTIES ON THE INTERPRETATION OF HOLY 
 
 SCRIPTURE. ..... page 301 
 
 CHAPTER XI. 
 
 ORIGIN OP THE CATACOMBS FORGOTTEN AND AFTERWARDS DIS- 
 COVERED RESORTED TO FOR RELICS DESCRIPTION OP THEIR 
 
 PRESENT STATE MEANS OR TESTS FOR THE DISCOVERT OF 
 
 RELICS COLLECTION OF MONUMENTAL INSCRIPTIONS POUND 
 
 IN THE CATACOMBS THEIR CHARACTER AND NATURE A CON- 
 VERSATION IN THE COLLEGE OF THE JESUITS RESPECTING 
 THEM — CONCLUSION AS TO THE .RELIGION OF THE PRIMITIVE 
 
 CHURCH. ...... page 328 
 
 CHAPTER XII. 
 
 INDULGENCES MISUNDERSTOOD THEIR TRUE CHARACTBE THE 
 
 INDULGENCES CONNECTED WITH THE HOLY STAIRS THOSE OP 
 
 THE COLISEUM FACILITY OP OBTAINING THEM AUTHORITIES 
 
 FOR THIS THE USES OP INDULGENCES TO THE CHURCH OF 
 
 ROME THE PRAYERS FOR THE CONVERSION OF ENGLAND 
 
 THEIR USE IN ADVANCING THE WORSHIP OP ANY SAINT IN 
 
 PROMOTING CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS INDULGENCES USED BT 
 
 THE PRESENT POPE FORM OP ISSUING THEM. pOgS 363 
 
MORNINGS AMONG THE JESUITS 
 AT EOME. 
 
 INTRODUCTION. 
 
 In committing the following pages to the press, it is felt 
 that some few words of introduction are required, to account 
 for their origin, and to explain their nature. 
 
 Having visited Rome, not only to gratify and indulge my 
 taste for the arts among the most exquisite sculptures and 
 the most beautiful pictures, the greatest miracles of art in 
 the world, — having visited that city, not only that I might 
 look at the ruins, the glorious ruins, of the temples and 
 baths and palaces of the conquerors of the world, and to 
 wander among those scenes where lived and walked the 
 heroes of the past ; but also and chiefly that, I might see 
 and study the true genius of the Church of Rome, and 
 judge for myself as to her nature and character, I felt it to 
 be my duty to avail myself of every means in my power 
 to obtain information on the subject. 
 
 Two sources of information immediately presented them- 
 selves. One was derived from my own means and oppor- 
 
 B 
 
2 INTRODUCTION. 
 
 tunities for personal observation : I therefore carefully 
 attended all the various services of the Church, — was a 
 watchful observer at every procession, — attended every ex- 
 hibition of relics,. — was at every church on all unusual ce- 
 remonials, — attended every place at which the Pope or the 
 Cardinals were expected, — took my place at every ordina- 
 tion, at every funeral of Cardinals or Bishops, at every 
 reception into a nunnery, at the celebration of every festi- 
 val ; in short, at everything that could give opportunity for 
 judging of the true nature and character of the system, as 
 exhibited in its outward manifestation of services, cere- 
 monials and festivals. And I am bound to acknowledge 
 the debt of gratitude, which I owe to some members of the 
 Society of Jesuits, and to some lay gentlemen of Rome, for 
 the extreme kindness and courtesy with which they facili- 
 tated the prosecution of my object; securing to me access 
 to places where otherwise I could not hjive been admitted. 
 The results of my observations thus made have already 
 been published in my account of " A Pilgrimage to 
 Rome." The second source of information was not so 
 dependent upon myself, but was opened to me by circum- 
 stances as unexpected as they were gratifying. I allude to 
 the opportunity of close intercourse with many members 
 of the priesthood, by which I might learn their opinions 
 and feelings, and receive their explanations of all that was 
 passing around me. It arose from the following circum- 
 stance. During my constant attendance at all the services 
 of the Church of Rome, I was observed by a Roman gen- 
 tleman who held office in the Papal court ; and being ac- 
 quainted with him, he remarked one day to my wife, that 
 I seemed much interested in these things ; and asked whe- 
 
INTRODUCTION. 3 
 
 ther I would not like to make the acquaintance of some of 
 the clergy. Having learned from her my wishes to that 
 effect, he called some days after to say he had heen with 
 his personal, friend the Padre Generale, — the Father- 
 General of the Jesuits, and had mentioned to him my wish 
 to enter into communication with the clergy, and he seemed 
 to intimate that this was sure to convert me to the Church 
 of Rome. He added that the Father-General had directed 
 two members of the order to wait on me, to give me any 
 information which I might desire. These gentlemen came 
 in due course. They soon presented me to others. They 
 introduced me to the professors of their establishment, the 
 CoUegio Romano, and thus a series of conversations or 
 conferences on the subject of the points at issue between 
 the Churches of England and Rome, commenced and were 
 carried on, as occasion offered, during the whole period of 
 my residence at Rome. A portion of my notes of these 
 conversations constitutes this present volume, of " Morn- 
 ings AMONG THE JeSUITS AT RoME." 
 
 Since the former editions of these notes, some persons 
 have expressed a doubt, and others have uttered a denial, of 
 the Father-General of the Order having had any part in or 
 knowledge of, these conversations. I can of course have no 
 means of resolving such a doubt or contradicting such a 
 denial. I can only know, that the Roman gentleman who 
 proposed the arrangement for our interviews, informed me 
 that he had himself communicated personally with the 
 Father-General on the subject, and that the visits of the 
 Jesuits were in obedience to his directions. He probably 
 communicated with the immediate superior at the Collegio 
 Romano, who selected the individuals. I have not a sha- 
 B 2 
 
4 INTRODUCTION. 
 
 dow of doubt as to the perfect honor and truthfulness of 
 my informant, who was an earnest and religious Roman 
 Catholic. 
 
 These visits were not mere visits of courtesy. They were 
 made in obedience to authority. They were made with 
 the frank avowal of an intention to induce me to enter the 
 Church of Rome. They were not less than twenty in 
 number, and, without a single exception, were exclusively 
 devoted to those religious topics which suited the object 
 they had in view. The Jesuits never concealed their inten- 
 tions from myself, nor their hopes from others, and — espe- 
 cially as 1 had never revealed their names — I have ever 
 felt there could be no breach of confidence in publishing, 
 for the instruction of others, the arguments by which they 
 endeavoured to entangle me, and the means by which I 
 was enabled to escape them. 
 
 I dealt with all frankness with these several gentlemen, 
 as to the object of their visit. They were under the im- 
 pression, which they were at no pains to conceal, that I was 
 disposed favourably towards their Church ; — that I was one 
 of those Anglican clergymen who neither understand nor 
 love the Church of England, and who, in a restless dissa- 
 tisfaction and love of change, are prepared to abandon her 
 communion for that of Rome, and who only wait a little 
 encouragement and perhaps instruction, before taking the 
 last step. I was very careful to undeceive them, stating 
 that I should be most happy to confer with them on the 
 differences between the two Churches, but that I could not 
 do so under a false colour, — that I was devotedly attached 
 in judgment and in feeling to the Church of England ; — 
 that I looked on her as the Church of God in England, 
 
INTRODUCTION. 
 
 and the most pure, most apostolic, most scriptural of all 
 the churches of Christendom ;^that, without unchurching 
 other churches, she was still the church of my judgment 
 and of my affections ; and that I had never for a moment 
 harbourgd the thought of abandoning her for any other 
 church, and especially for the Church of Rome. 
 
 My new friends, for such their subsequent conduct 
 proved them to be, seemed surprised at the decision of my 
 opinions ; and expressed their wonder, that I coiild refuse 
 to hold communion with the church of Rome. 
 
 I stated that I felt very strong objections, as they ap- 
 peared to me, against that Church ; but that if those ob- 
 jections were removed, — if they, who were Priests of the 
 Church of Rome, could remove them, — if they, living at 
 the fountain-head of that Church, could prove them futile, 
 in that case they should find me free to act, and prepared 
 to act on my enlightened convictions, and I would without 
 hesitation join their communion. 
 
 They generally asked me to state my objections, as they 
 felt assured that they should be able to remove them. 
 
 This invitation led to a series' of conferences or conver- 
 sations with some of these gentlemen. We ranged through 
 a very large portion of the entire field of controversy 
 between the Churches of England and Rome, and much 
 was elicited that was perfectly new to me ; — new, chiefly 
 as indicative of the opinions and feelings of the enlightened 
 and learned members of the priesthood ; and I was some- 
 times startled at the opinions expressed and the feelings 
 avowed, as exhibiting a phase of mind and feeling, which 
 had heretofore seemed to me incompatible with enlighten- 
 ment and education. I have learned, and must bear about 
 
6 INTRODUCTION. 
 
 me for ever the memory of the lesson, never again to regard 
 the extreme of credulity as inconsistent wilh the most 
 scientific attainments ; or to suppose that what seems the 
 most absurd and marvellous superstition, is incompatible 
 with the highest education ; or to think that the utmost 
 prostration of the mind is inconsistent with the loftiest 
 range of intellectual power. There was in some of my 
 friends an extraordinary amount of scientific attainments, 
 of classical erudition, of polite literature, and of great 
 intellectual acumen ; but all seemed subdued and held, 
 as by an adamantine grasp, in everlasting subjection to 
 what seemed to them to be the religious principle. This 
 principle, which regarded the voice of the Church of Home 
 as the voice of God Himself, was ever uppermost in the 
 mind, and held such an influence and a mastery over the 
 whole intellectual powers, over the whole rational being, 
 that it bowed with the humility of a child before every thing, 
 that came with even the apparent authority of the Church. 
 I never could have believed the extent of this, if I had not 
 witnessed it in these remarkable instances. They seemed 
 to regard the canons of the Church, precisely as we regard 
 the decisions of Scripture ; and just as we regard any un- 
 beUef of the statements of Holy Scripture as Infidelity, 
 so they regarded every doubt as to the judgment of the 
 Church as the worst Infidelity. It seemed as if a doubt 
 of it never cast a shadow across their minds. 
 
 But my friends argued in these conferences at a consi- 
 derable disadvantage. They imagined, that I was unac- 
 quainted with the controversy between the churches,— that 
 I was disposed in my principles and views to join the 
 Church of Kome,— that I was already convinced that I 
 
INTRODUCTION. 7 
 
 ought to join her communion, and that my objections were 
 only a sort of make-believe. They imagined that I en- 
 tered on these conferences in an easy, free, unprepared 
 state, and without any view to controversy ; and they there- 
 fore were induced to express themselves more freely and 
 openly, less guardedly than perhaps they otherwise would 
 have done. This placed them in some respects at a disad- 
 vantage, which I am bound in candour to acknowledge ; 
 and one that was particularly serviceable to me, as calcu- 
 lated to secure to me the more free expression of their real 
 sentiments and feelings. But at the same time it was not 
 without its disadvantages to myself. I dared not distinctly 
 assume the position of a Protestant controversialist, as it 
 would in the first place have led to their immediate with- 
 drawal from all communication with me ; and in the next 
 place, in case I exhibited anything like a proselytising 
 spirit, there was every probability that my passports would 
 be sent to me, with orders from the police to withdraw from 
 Rome. This necessitated great caution on my part, -and 
 obliged me to hold back many things that I might other- 
 wise have urged, and in all faithfulness should have urged ; 
 and it obliged me to confine myself to one object, namely, 
 the obtaining information as to the sentiments and feelings 
 of the priests at Rome. If I could draw them out, — if I 
 could elicit their real mind, — if I could ascertain the real 
 nature of their religion, — and their mode of argument as 
 developed in free and familiar conversation, — if I could 
 occasionally advance an objection that might awaken a 
 doubt, or suggest a new train of thought in their minds, 
 which might ultimately lead to better things, then I should 
 have obtained all I could under the circumstances reason- 
 
8 INTRODUCTION. 
 
 ably hope or expect to obtain. And thus we all laboured, 
 both they and myself, under certain disadvantages, and to 
 this must be attributed, by the gentle and Christian reader, 
 many of the peculiarities that characterize these conferences, 
 and strip them of much of the point and life and spirit of 
 antagonism which some persons might have expected. 
 
 In all these conversations I acted for the best, and to 
 the best of my feeble judgment. If I have done wrong, 
 either in my close examination of the services of the Roman 
 Church, or in my mode of conducting these conversations, 
 I have only to bow my head in meekness, and pray that 
 He, whom I desire to serve, may pardon His servant. 
 
 I have now only to add in reference to the accuracy of 
 these notes, that they were always written on the very day 
 on which each conversation was held. "While actually in 
 conversation, I often made it a point to take a note of 
 what they said, and my mode of doing so was not discour- 
 teous, but seemed at the time to be giving importance to 
 their words, as if they appeared to me deserving of an 
 accurate record. But on every occasion, without exception, 
 the moment they left me I immediately committed the 
 whole to paper. The conversations as now presented to 
 the public, are very little else than an accurate transcript 
 of some of my notes thus taken at the time. 
 
 I may not presume to say that there are no mistakes as 
 to the arguments, and as to the meaning of my opponents, 
 but I cau say without any hesitation, that there are no inten- 
 tional misrepresentations. To err, by mistake, is unhappily 
 a misfortune incident to human nature ; to misrepresent by 
 design, is a sin against Christianity. 
 
 When this narrative of these interviews was first pub- 
 
INTRODUCTION. 9 
 
 lished, an attempt was made by many of the members of the 
 Church of Rome, and by others whose sympathies are with 
 that Church, to create an impression, that these conversa- 
 tions were never really held, and that they were purely 
 " imaginary conversations." Having however communi- 
 cated with Rome on the subject, it was soon ascertained, 
 that they were real ; and one reverend Jesuit, Padre Mazio, 
 the Professor of Canon Law in the CoUegio Romano, at 
 once recognized and acknowledged those in which he was 
 himself engaged. The result has been the publication of 
 a Review of this Volume, in a Roman Catholic periodical 
 called, The Rambler ; — written in part by my opponents 
 at Rome, and in part by my opponents in England, with a 
 view to vindicate the Order of Jesuits, to answer my ar- 
 guments, and to impeach the accuracy of my narrative. 
 It may be presumed therefore to be the best reply that they 
 can oifer, I purpose to publish in this edition the whole 
 of their arguments verbatim, as furnished by themselves, 
 and to append them at the close of each conversation to 
 which they may refer. The enquirer after truth will thus 
 possess, not only, my narrative of these conversations, but 
 also the replies or comments of my opponents, as arranged 
 and published by themselves. I shall thus act with all 
 fairness towards them, for though I respect their talents, 
 I have no fear of their arguments. 
 
 There are some statements, however, which, as they are 
 no part of the argument, will be most suitably considered 
 here. They say, — 
 
 " The first book on our list is, indeed, scarcely to be classed 
 with the more openly antichristian weapons which are forged 
 by the enemies of the Church. Many a person will account us 
 B 5 
 
10 INTRODUCTION. 
 
 guilty of uncharitableness while we ascribe it to that Evil One 
 •who is ever employing his servants in his miserable cause. And 
 of course, when we speak of Mr. Seymour, we speak of hira only 
 as he appears in bis writings and past public acts. Of himself 
 we say nothing, as we know nothing of his private history. It 
 is not absolutely beyond the range of possibility that he should 
 be in a state of invincible ignorance ; though in all honesty we 
 i^iust admit that a less creditable and honourable publication 
 we have not often seen. It has indeed so little to recommend 
 it, either in the way of ability or candour, that we had no 
 thoughts of noticing it, until we heard that it had made some 
 noise in the Protestant world, and that persons of sense con- 
 sidered that " it ought to be answered." A hasty glance at its 
 pages, also, so closely betrayed its character, that — to tell the 
 whole truth — we were unwilling to wade through Mr. Seymour's 
 lengthy descriptions, unless absolutely compelled. However, to 
 our surprise, we learnt that the book was accounted unanswer- 
 able ; and some of our own readers, both Catholic and Protestant, 
 wishing to see it reviewed, unwillingly we undertook the task. 
 " But first we took the very natural precaution of ascertaining 
 how far Mr. Seymour's fictions were even founded on fact. 
 Having a lively recollection of the author's affair — not of honour 
 — with a certain brother Protestant clergyman a few years ago, 
 and, moreover, being tolerably sure that Mr. Seymour knew 
 little or nothing^f the Italian language, we wrote to one of the 
 Jesuits with whom he held bis conversations, and with whom 
 we happen to be acquainted, and put to him one or two ques- 
 tions respecting Mr. Seymour's interviews- All our suspicions 
 Father Mazio has confirmed. He informs us that the very title 
 of this book was an untruth, for that there had been but two 
 Mornings' Discussions between Jesuits and Mr. Seymour ; that 
 though he himself had paid Mr. and Mrs. Seymour a few visits 
 of courtesy, in which religious subjects had been among others 
 talked of, yet that the real disputations were simply two." 
 
 It will not be expected — as unbecoming in those who 
 seek and love the truth — that I should waste words in reply- 
 to the spirit of personality exhibited here and elsewhere. 
 
INTRODUCTION. 11 
 
 I cite this passage, as proving that my opponents have 
 thought it worthwhile to communicate with the Jesuits at 
 Rome on the subject — as proving further that the reahty of 
 those interviews is acknowledged — and as proving practically 
 their accuracy, since one of the Jesuits recognises and ac- 
 knowledges those conversations in which he was himself 
 a disputant. The narrative must needs be accurate which is 
 thus recognized, after the lapse of four years ! As to the 
 statement, that the " very title of the book is an untruth, 
 for that there had been but two Mornings' Discussions," I 
 have only to say, that the title of the book is simply 
 " Mornings among the Jesuits," and they were not less 
 than twenty in number. Of these, two were of a formal 
 nature, and were held in consequence of a challenge from 
 Padre Passaglia, the Professor of Dogmatic Theology, and 
 the others were of the nature of conversations, in which 
 the Jesuits undertook to remove my objections to commu- 
 nion with the Church of Rome ; — and, so far from being 
 mere visits of courtesy, were avowedly undertaken, in obe- 
 dience to authority, and with a view to my conversion. 
 They say again ; — 
 
 " In order to give more importance to his book — we quote 
 Father Mazlo's remarks almost word for word — and to glorify 
 himself by shewing that he had fought with and foiled many of 
 the ablest Jesuits at Rome, h&has, by a romantic fiction, mul- 
 tiplied his opponents. Of one Jesuit he has made no less than 
 five. The Jesuit of the first chapter, who is represented as de- 
 scribing at large the Institute of the Society ; the Jesuit in the 
 second chapter, who was first introduced to Mr. Seymour ; the 
 priest of great attainments who held a position of great influ- 
 ence in the Cliurch, and who forms the subject of the fifth chap- 
 ter; theprofessorof Canon Law spoken of in the whole seventh 
 chapter ; the other Jesuit, of whom so much is said in the eighth 
 
12 INTRODUCTION. 
 
 chapter, are but different representations of one poor Jesuit, 
 Padre Mazio ! It is false that he, after his first introduction to 
 Mr. Seymour, introduced two other Jesuits to him, who re- 
 mained with him some hours. The only persons whom Father 
 Mazio introduced in subsequent and different times were Mr. 
 Connelly and Dr. Grant the Rector of the Scotch College at 
 Rome, who were not Jesuits, besides Father Passaglia, with 
 whom, as has been said, two conferences were held. When 
 visiting the Roman College, Mr. Seymour was presented to the 
 librarian, Father Secchi, with whom he spoke very little, and 
 then to Father Marchi, in the Museum, with whom he had a 
 rather long conversation. Father Mazio is not aware that Mr. 
 Seymour had any intercourse with any other Jesuit in Rome." 
 
 The meaning of all this — separated from the spirit of 
 personality — is that my interviews were principally held 
 with one, instead of with several Jesuits, and that I had 
 intercourse with only a few members of the Order at Rome. 
 This, though unimportant, as not affecting any argument, 
 is incorrect. It is here acknowledged, however, by my 
 opponents, that I had the opportunity of con.versing with 
 several of their most eminent members ; as Padre Mazio, 
 Professor of Canon Law ; Padre Passaglia, Professor of 
 Dogmatic Theology ; Padre Marchi, Professor of Archaeo- 
 logy ; Padre Secchi, the Librarian ; and Mr. ConoUy, a 
 Probationer of the Order, and a Preceptor in the College of 
 Nobles. And whereas it is stated that " Padre Mazio is 
 not aware that Mr. Seymour had any intercourse with any 
 other Jesuit at Rome," it is manifest that such a statement 
 could never have come from that Jesuit himself ; inasmuch 
 as he paid me ten or twelve visits, each of them of some 
 hours' duration, and came on each occasion accompanied 
 by a second Jesuit, — it being a rule of the Order at Rome 
 that no Jesuit shall be seen outside the CoUegio Romano, 
 
INTRODUCTION. 1 3 
 
 unless accompanied by another member of the Order. In 
 simple truth, I had ample opportunity for such interviews. 
 And I feel assured that all persons, who are acquainted with 
 Rome, and the infinity of churches, ruins, galleries, anti- 
 quities, classic, Etruscan and Mediaeval, with the endless 
 variety of pictures, of sculptures, and all the high ceremo- 
 nies and processions of the Church, to be visited and ex- 
 amined, will feel that when I appropriated twenty days to 
 so many controversial interviews with various Jesuits, it was 
 quite sufiicieut for ray purpose, without seeking other op- 
 ponents. The conversations now published, were held with 
 four different persons, but principally with Padre Mazio, 
 and always in the presence of a second Jesuit. 
 
 I now commit my narrative, together with the replies of 
 ray opponents, to the reader. I shall introduce them by 
 first giving a sketch of the principles of the Order, as com- 
 municated by one of themselves. 
 
CHAPTEK I. 
 
 THE ORDER OP THE JESUITS— CONTRASTED WTTH THE OTHER ORDERS 
 — SUPERIORITY IN LEARNING, AND CHARACTER, AND EXERTION — THE 
 GREAT AND MASTER PRINCIPLE OP THE SYSTEM ; UNLIMITED OBEDI- 
 ENCE — CAPACITY FOR GREAT EPFORTS — THE CONSTITUTIONS ON THE 
 POINT OF OBEDIENCE — CONVERSATION WITH A JESUIT ON THIS SUB- 
 JECT—CONFIRMATION OF THE WORST THINGS CHARGED AGAINST 
 THEM — SINGULAR RULE RESPECTING MASSES— EARLY ADMISSION TO 
 THE VOWS — THE MORAL CHARACTER OP THE JESUITS — EXTRACTS 
 PROM THE PAPAL BULLS SUPPRESSING THE ORDER AND AFTERWARDS 
 RESTORING IT. 
 
 It is impossible for any one, who has resided for any rea- 
 sonable period at Rome, to help being impressed with the 
 high position of the order of the Jesuits. Indeed the 
 extraordinary ability, zeal, and learning of the order, might 
 well prepare one for expecting something of the kind in 
 the city of the church. However prejudiced against them, 
 however mindful of all that religionists have uttered against 
 them, of all that politicians and statesmen have planned 
 against them, of all the fearful things that have been 
 gathered from their writings ; and of all that the page of 
 history has recorded, still one is constrained at Rome, in 
 despite of all, to yield respect to the order. Its members 
 stand deservedly high in the estimation of every observant 
 man, who judges only from the appearances that present 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 15 
 
 themselves before him. There is the wide extent and range 
 of their learning, there is the large amount of their talents, 
 there is their zeal for religion ; and there is the appearance 
 of the strictest morality in their lives. 
 
 It often occurs however, in our experience of the world, 
 that we see some men rise by the fall of others ; and wit- 
 ness the character of one man created and sustained by the 
 ruin of another. Character is thus often made by con- 
 trast, so that even when not good in itself it seems good in 
 comparison with others. There is much of this in the 
 high reputation achieved by the Jesuits in Rome ; at least 
 much of it seemed to me attributable to this, for nothing 
 can be more marked than the contrast between the order 
 of the Jesuits, and the other religious orders, whether 
 Augustinians, Franciscans, Dominicans, Camaldolines, or 
 any other of the countless series. The Jesuits are devoted 
 to study, and remarkable for learning and cultivated talents, 
 while the others seem steeped to the lips in ignorance and 
 indifference. The Jesuits are zealous, stirring, active, un- 
 tiring in the cause of their religion and their church, while 
 the others are inactive, lazy, indolent, and careless of 
 everything. There are many exceptions — most honourable 
 exceptions, among the members of those orders, amidst 
 whom there are some whose activity, learning and morals, 
 would be an ornament to any body of men in the world ; 
 but these are too few to save the general character of the 
 monks and friars at Rome, — of the city of Rome ; for those 
 remarks are not intended to apply to those of other cities, 
 and other lands, where I have had no means of observation. 
 In the city of Rome the monks and friars, with the excep- 
 tion of the Jesuits, have no one characteristic to recom- 
 
]6 MOENINGS AMONG 
 
 mend them to the wise and good ; and the absence of learn- 
 ing — the lazy indifference — the occasions of scandal, so 
 unhappily characteristic of many, has so strongly con- 
 trasted with the learning, the activity,' and the moral lives 
 of the Jesuits, that it may well he helieved that the good 
 character of one, is built in a great measure on the ill cha- 
 racter of the others. The church of St. Peter's is not 
 more striking and prominent among the other churches of 
 this city of churches, than is the order of Jesus among the 
 other orders of this city of convents. 
 
 It was thus at least that it appeared to me ; and yet my 
 pilgrimage to Rome was commenced with feelings of ex- 
 treme and intense distaste for the Jesuits, and that distaste 
 has become deeply rooted and inveterate, from a close and 
 personal examination of the system of the order. Per- 
 sonally acquainted as I was with some memhers of the 
 order, I am bound in all candour and honesty to say, that 
 I found them polished, refined, well-informed, and learned ; 
 and in all my intercourse vrith them I found them cour- 
 teous, obliging, and zealous ; and while I feel they are 
 utterly in error in all their principles of morality and reli- 
 gion, I yet also feel that they were perfectly sincere in the 
 profession they had made. Hence, though I commenced 
 my intercourse with much distrust, I closed it with many 
 regrets, parting with men whose talent and zeal had com- 
 manded my respect, whose personal character had won my 
 regard, and whose many obliging acts of courtesy and 
 kindness, in facilitating the objects of my pilgrimage, have 
 placed me under obligations which I were ungrateful to 
 forget. 
 
 It was in ray intercourse with the Jesuits, that I learned 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 17 
 
 to appreciate the importance of that which I regard as the 
 secret, the mystery of the order. I allude to that which 
 is the grand idea — the great principle — the living soul of 
 the system, and which has enabled a few priests to wield 
 the learning and science — the talent and genius — the reli- 
 gious superstitions and political intrigues of mankind. In 
 a most interesting conversation with a very polished and 
 influential member of the order, he was commending it for 
 its morality, and detailing its discipline. Having become 
 warm and excited on the subject, he gave vent to his enthu- 
 siasm for the order, and expressed himself less guardedly 
 than usual, so that I found no great difficulty in leading 
 him to express himself freely on the precise point on which 
 I desired information. He stated that the .great and car- 
 dinal principle was, that obedience was the greatest Chris- 
 tian duty, and HDMiLiTY the highest Christian virtue, and 
 that this principle was the grand element of their power. He 
 showed how in their earliest schooling they trained the 
 mind to the most strict and rigid obedience, bending every- 
 thing so as to impart the principle of obedience, and create 
 the habit of obedience : and in the end, admission to the 
 order is secured only through the vow of the most implicit 
 and unquestioning obedience. When admitted into the 
 order there is no right to judge or question, to demur or 
 hesitate, as to any command that may be issued by the 
 General and Council of the order ; the- duty of every mem- 
 ber being to render, in all humility, a simple and unhesi- 
 tating obedience. And when in their retreat — in that 
 period of each year when every member is obliged to retire 
 from his stated employments, that he may in his prescribed 
 retirement give himself more uninterruptedly to the exa- 
 
18 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 mination of his heart and to the cultivation of private devo- 
 tion — when in that retreat in which, according to the direc- 
 tions of Ignatius Loyola, they are specially to dwell on the 
 three-fold inquiry — whence they have come and what they 
 have been doing — what they are now accomplishing for 
 the glory of God — and whither they are going for the un- 
 fathomed eternity ? — when in that retreat, and in answer to 
 the last inquiry, they resolve to live more to God, and to 
 devote themselves, body, soul, and spirit, with all their 
 affections and intellects, to his glory; they then come 
 forth with deep and fixed resolve, to reader in all humility 
 a more implicit and unhesitating obedience than ever to the 
 mandates of those, who are to order all things in the 
 church. This, principle of obedience is fixed and rooted 
 deeply ; so deeply that it were as hard to uproot it as to 
 uproot the belief of a God or of a religion. The mind, 
 habituated toffegard it as the first and last thing, as the 
 very essence of all true religion, grows so imbued and im- 
 pressed with the duty of humble obedience, that it becomes 
 the veriest slave, the unshrinking and unhesitating instru- 
 ment of those who rule the order. My friend, who was 
 himself one of the most accomplished among them, stated 
 that they were carefully taught from the first beginning, to 
 suppress every doubt or hesitation as contrary to the hu- 
 mility that becomes them ; and to still and silence every 
 tendency to question the propriety of any command from 
 those in authority, as if it were positive pride and rebellion. 
 He said that in all the sayings and actions of the mem- 
 bers, they are saying and acting in obedience to authority ; 
 and that in almost everything in which individual Jesuits 
 are the objects of praise or censure, they deserve neither 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 19 
 
 the one nor the other, — the praise, and censure belonging 
 properly to the general and council of the order, and not 
 to the individual Jesuit. He stated* as illustrating the 
 theory and practice of obedience, that himself and all 
 others were completely in the power and under obedience 
 to the General of the order — that if the General sends for 
 him, and desires him to undertake the conduct of an uni- 
 versity, he has only to bow and retire, and then forthwith 
 prepare himself to obey ; and that if the General desires 
 him so resign that position, and to become the mere door- 
 porter or messenger of some family or establishment in 
 any land, he has only to bow and withdraw to prepare for 
 immediate obedience. And yet further, that if the General 
 directs him to proceed as a missionary to China — to the 
 Indians of America, or the savages of Africa, he can only 
 bow and take his leave, in order to give a ready obedience. 
 This matter is carried so far, that not unfreqi:(pntly a mem- 
 ber may be one day the porter of a convent in France, and 
 the next day the private secretary or minister of a Prince 
 in Germany ; on one day he may be the confessor of a 
 monarch, and the next day the master of some village 
 school. The General of the order with his council resolves 
 on some purpose. The members of the order are the in- 
 struments to be employed. The commands are given ; the 
 obedience is rendered, and the whole purpose accomplished 
 without any one of the instruments knowing, or even in- 
 quiring, anything respecting it. 
 
 In order to have fitting and adequate instruments always 
 in readiness for any purpose or emergency, the same prin- 
 ciple of humble obedience is brought into action. The 
 mental and intellectual calibre of every member is well 
 
20 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 and accurately known. Those who have been instructed 
 in their schools are well and closely watched from the be- 
 ginning, and every act and word that indicates character is 
 carefully registered, and may be ascertained in a moment. 
 Among the young members in general, when the mind or 
 taste or intellectual powers of any exhibit a leaning in any 
 particular direction, it is carefully noted, and all the ener- 
 gies and time are authoritatively directed into that channel. 
 My friend informed me, that if a young scholar exhibited 
 any marked capacity or taste for languages, the General of 
 ■the order immediately desired him to apply himself ex- 
 clusively, for so many years, to the study of those languages. 
 Obedience is immediately rendered. If a young novice 
 exhibits any striking leanings to mathematics or other 
 science, the General at once directs that he shall devote 
 himself for so many years to the sole pursuit of such science. 
 If other young members show a taste and aptitude for theo- 
 logical controversies — or for antiquarian lore, or for polite 
 literature, or for political intrigue, the General directs that 
 the studies of each shall be devoted uninterruptedly to his 
 congenial pursuit ; and every possible facility and encour- 
 agement is then given, to enable each to acquire a con- 
 summate skill, a thorough mastery of the subject. This 
 direction of the General is immediately followed by obe- 
 dience, and in some instances many years are freely appro- 
 priated to accomplish the full efficiency of the member in 
 his congenial study. And the result is and must be the 
 fitness — the perfect fitness of a great number of men, for a 
 great variety of purposes, so that whatever be the purpose, 
 the General may feel he has a fitting and adequate agent 
 prepared and willing to accompHsh it. Whether he needs 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 21 
 
 one as confessor in some courtly circle, or as a preacher to 
 some rabble multitude — whether as the principal of some 
 university, or as the village school-master of some distant 
 valley — ^whether as private tutor in some family of influence, 
 or as a footman to act as a spy in some important family — 
 whether as a learned and subtle controversialist, or as a meek 
 and gentle and courtly friend to insinuate his opinions — in 
 short, whatever be the object to be accomplished, in any 
 land or any rank, there are the persons already prepared 
 and fitted as able and adequate instruments. The General 
 speaks the word — names the person, and receives the most 
 ready and implicit obedience. 
 
 A system like this, so truly adapted to the purpose con- 
 templated, will naturally supply the General and his Coun- 
 cil with the most accomplished instruments for their pur- 
 pose, whatever that purpose be. And it is this that has 
 so greatly exalted the character for science, theology, and 
 literature, so deservedly attained by the Jesuits. There 
 may not perhaps be many among them who excel in many 
 of the sciences, but there are men who have arrived at the 
 utmost excellence in some one favourite science ; so that 
 there is more real learning and more cultivated talent in 
 the single order of Jesus than in all the other religious 
 bodies together ; and this, combined as it is with zeal for 
 religion, activity for their order, and unimpeached morality, 
 gives and secures a pre-eminence in influence and respect- 
 ability, before which the other communities are compelled 
 to yield. But it must not be supposed that every Jesuit 
 is talented and learned and active. There are as dull, and 
 stupid, and ignorant persons among them, as among others ; 
 but when the General sees one of these useless members, — 
 
22 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 useless at least for one purpose — ^he makes him useful for 
 another. He directs such men to celebrate the mass in 
 some unimportant place, or he appoints them as the sacris- 
 tans or sextons, or other attendants on the churches, cere- 
 monies and processions, or he disperses them into retired 
 villages, or places them in convents, and so makes them 
 useful for some of those ordinary occasions vrhere neither 
 talent nor learning nor courtly address are required. But 
 in so large a multitude of men, with whose education all 
 possible pains have been taken, there must always be a 
 considerable portion deeply learned and highly acconi- 
 pUshed. This is the fact, and the result is that there is no 
 purpose to be achieved, whether in polities or in religion — 
 whether of subtle intrigue, or of darker crime, for which a 
 ready and fitting agent may not be found among either the 
 ordained or unordaihed — the priestly or lay members of the 
 order. Whatever is required, there is the instrument ready, 
 and prepared to obey. 
 
 While these interesting revelations came from my friend, 
 under the impression that he was exalting the power and 
 character of the order, by shewing the humility and unself- 
 ishness and devotion of the members, as exhibited in their 
 implicit and unquestioning obedience, he seemed not aware 
 that he was giving to the order the very character that made 
 it disliked by me ; as shewing that all the members made 
 themselves the mere tools or instruments, to give effect to 
 the designs of the General and his council. 
 
 I could not avoid taking the opportunity of a pause in 
 his discourse, to remark to him that this implicit and un- 
 questioning obedience of which he spoke, must sometimes 
 lead them into acts repulsive to their feelings, and opposed 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 23 
 
 to their judgments j and that I could well suppose the 
 General or other superior issuing to him a commandj which 
 he felt he could not consistently obey. It might be in 
 opposition to his judgment — revolting to his feelings, and 
 wholly hostile to his deliberately-formed opinions. Obe- 
 dience in such a case might prove ruinous to a character 
 which he valued, and ruinous to all his best and most 
 cherished interests ; and to the interests of those near and 
 dear to him. 
 
 He replied that under these and all similar circumstances 
 there must still be obedience, — implicit and unquestioning 
 obedience ; and that no Jesuit would hesitate for one mo- 
 ment to yield that obedience. He went on to say that they 
 taught it as a fundamental element in all their education, 
 that the first and highest of all religious duties was obe- 
 dience ; and that the first and most meritorious of the 
 moral virtues was humility ; in short, that the prime lesson 
 of all revealed religion, and the most meritorious in the 
 sight of God, was humble obedience, and the more implicit 
 and unquestioning it was, the more truly meritorious it was. 
 And as for my objection as to any command opposed to the 
 feeUng or the judgment, or inconsistent with the supposed 
 interest of family or nation, he stated that it argued greater 
 humility, modesty, and self-denial to render obedience under 
 such circumstances ; and therefore such obedience was held 
 to be more meritorious in the sight of God. He stated that 
 if such a command was issued to him, he would feel it his 
 undoubted duty to forego his own judgment, to neglect his 
 own feelings, to abandon his own family, to renounce the 
 interests of his country, and to give an implicit and un- 
 questioning obedience ; that such self-denial was meritori- 
 
24 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 ous, and that he felt that the amount of merit accruing to 
 him, would be great in proportion to the pain and difficulty 
 he experienced, in so humbling himself as to render such 
 obedience to the desires of the order. 
 
 I felt on hearing this, that I might without the risk of 
 giving offence, proceed a step further : I therefore said that 
 this principle might lead to the utter overthrow of all 
 morality and religion, for it was quite possible that the 
 General might issue some command that might be posi- 
 tively immoral and irreligious, — that it might be utterly 
 opposed to all the religious convictions, moral feelings, and 
 conscientious scruples of the man, — one that must necessa- 
 rily bring guilt on his soul, as being an act against all his 
 light and knowledge. I said that in such cause, obedience 
 would be sin. 
 
 He at once denied my conclusion, saying that the very 
 circumstance of its being against our notions of what was 
 moral and religious — the very circumstance of its being in 
 open hostility to all our convictions, feelings, and conscience, 
 made the act one of greater self-denial, and therefore all 
 the more meritorious. He stated that humility and modesty 
 became the members of the order of Jesus ; and that what- 
 ever be the private convictions, feelings, or conscience of 
 the individuals, they must at once give way to the declared 
 judgment of the superiors of the order ; that humility re- 
 quires such surrender ; that duty demands obedience ; that 
 religion demands self-denial; that the more difficult the 
 obedience, the greater the merit; and that as to the charac- 
 ter of the act commanded, the responsibilty rests not with 
 the subordinate members who obey, but with the superiors 
 who give the command. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 25 
 
 I felt that this was a principle that would justify any 
 crime ; and I could not shrink from saying so. I saw that 
 according to this principle, there was no treason against 
 the state, and no villany against individuals, that might not 
 be perpetrated by a Jesuit ; he imagining at the moment, 
 that the more hateful and revolting to his own feelings and 
 convictions the act might be, the more really meritorious it 
 was in the sight of God. 
 
 I am not conscious of distorting this deeply-interesting 
 conversation ; it was not originally introduced by me, but 
 by himself, while speakirlg in very rapturous praise of the 
 Order ; and as he dilated enthusiastically on his theme, he 
 dropt intimations on subjects on which I was desirous of 
 information , I then merely asked the requisite questions, 
 or led the conversation in the requisite direction. He had 
 been speaking in very pleasing terms of the humility that 
 characterized all the members of the order — of their total 
 renunciation of their property, their feelings, their freedom, 
 for the sake of religion ; of their placing themselves alto- 
 gether at the disposal of the General and council of fathers, 
 who governed the order. This he enlarged on as an act of 
 great humiliation, greater than that observable in any other 
 religious order ; and wholly unknown in any section of the 
 . Protestant churches. He spoke with a deep-seated feeling, 
 with a noble energy and high enthusiasm that perhaps left 
 him unguarded ; and so he was easily led on to dilate on 
 that implicit and unquestioning obedience, which is the 
 grand fruit to be achieved or produced by the humility of 
 the members. When I urged that this might be carried 
 too far — that it might be obeying man against God — that 
 he was placing his feelings, his opinions, his judgment and 
 
 C 
 
26 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 e%'eii his conscience in the hands of the Father-General, and 
 that whereas God has made him responsihle, this system 
 made him irresponsible, and capable of perpetrating any 
 act in obedience to authority ; he at once met the objection 
 by stating the principles which under such circumstances 
 would govern himself, — that in the first place it would 
 argue a self- conceited and self-opiniated spirit in him, if he 
 called in question any matter which was determined by the 
 General and council of the order, to whom it belonged to 
 determine what was wise and expedient. And that there- 
 fore instead of exercising private judgment he should ex- 
 hibit self-denial, by practising personal humility, and at 
 once abandon all opinion or judgment of his own, surren- 
 dering himself implicitly to the opinion and judgments of 
 his superiors ; — that in the next place he should consider 
 that the more the matter commanded was opposed to his 
 private judgment, revolting to his personal feelings, or 
 wounding to his individual conscience, the more in propor- 
 tion would be the meritoriousness of obedience under such 
 trying circumstances — a meritoriousness approved and ac- 
 knowledged as such in the judgment of God, for whose 
 cause all was to be undertaken and effected ; — ^that in the 
 third place, whatever sinfulness might characterize the 
 matter commanded, and whatever actual guilt before God 
 or man might belong to it, yet all the responsibility for the 
 sin or guilt belonged to the General or council who gave 
 the command, and not to the subordinate member who 
 obeyed it — responsibility specially belonging to the head, 
 and implicit and unquestioning obedience being the only 
 duty of the members. 
 
 All this came upon me like an electric shock. I had 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME 27 
 
 often read and heard of such things ; I had often observed 
 that the whole was involved in the well-known doctrine of 
 the Jesuit writers on morals, called probability •- i. e. if 
 any man or number of men approve of any act — be that act 
 what it may — then there is a probability, more or less great, 
 that the act may be done lawfully. And, therefore, though 
 our convictions or conscience be against the act, yet we may 
 lawfully act against conviction and conscience, and do the 
 thing, inasmuch as some man or number of men have ap- 
 proved of it, and so there is some probabiliti/ of lawfulness 
 in its favour; I had habitually read and heard such things 
 cvm grano sails, as being unable to conceive a living and 
 breathing man — a learned and educated man — a man out- 
 side the walls of a madhouse, actually realizing and avowing 
 such a system. And when I saw before me one of the 
 most polished, educated, refined, and learned men in Borne 
 — when I considered that he was, so far as the eye could 
 judge, amiable, religious, devout ; and that he had sacri- 
 ficed wealth and station in society, that he might save his 
 soul in the order of Jesus ; when I considered these things, 
 and heard his sentiments urged with earnestness and energy, 
 — urged as recommendatory of the system on which it is 
 based, it filled me with horror. It was no longer an idea 
 in dim and distant theory, the creature of imagination, and 
 the fiction of romance. It was a living reality. 
 
 Perhaps I am not justified in drawing any inferences, 
 from some of the intimations which dropped from my friend 
 — I call him such, for I believe him to be sincerely my 
 friend — in the fulness of his love for the order of the 
 Jesuits. But at all events, it seems certain from his reve- 
 lations thus made, that if a spy is wanted on any family or 
 C 2 
 
28 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 person, a Jesuit must he prepared to undertake the office 
 of valet, or footman, or courier, or secretary, or librarian, 
 or confessor, or anything else, in obedience to the command 
 of the General. My friend stated, as an illustration of 
 the humility and obedience of the members, that he him- 
 self might be ordered any day to become a servant, or even 
 a porter at the gate, and that he would feel it his duty at 
 once to obey. In his eyes this was an evidence of humilitj' 
 and self-denial ; and he saw not that it might be to my 
 eyes an evidence, that any crafty and subtle member might 
 be appended to any man or any family, as a spy on their 
 actions ; so that in the palace of the monarch, or, in the 
 home of the private gentleman, there might always be a spy 
 to watch his proceedings, and to exert a mysterious influ- 
 ence, while he seems to be a menial, yet wielding all the 
 power of the most powerful order in the world. He may 
 be a tutor to a prince — a chaplain to a bishop — a fellow in 
 a college — a curate of a village — a leader of a faction — or 
 a menial in a family ; and yet all this may be merely the 
 office and position assumed by a Jesuit in obedience to the 
 command of his superiors, thinking his highest duty to be 
 obedience — that the responsibility rests with his superiors, 
 and that its essential merit is altogether his own ? And 
 this it is, as it seems to me, that enables a Christian man 
 to feel pity for the members, while he hates the order. 
 They undertake these hateful and loathsome offices as 
 duties : they undertake them as duties, despised and de- 
 tested it may be, but still duties so essentially duties, that 
 they cannot, on their perverted principles, be declined 
 without sin ; the sin being greater to disobey the command 
 than to perform the act ; and yet again, duties that bring 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 29 
 
 an accumulation of merit to the performer in proportion to 
 his distaste of the performance. A Jesuit is not neces- 
 sarily a man who finds pleasure in subtleties, intrigues, 
 deceits, crimes, but he is a man who may live in the prac- 
 tice of all these, under the conviction of a religious duty to 
 the commands of his superiors. 
 
 One remarkable arrangement in the discipline of the 
 order, struck me as exhibiting the power of habit and the 
 influence of principles — of which we know nothing — on 
 some minds. Every ordained Jesuit is obliged to celebrate 
 two masses every week. Every lay Jesuit is bound to at- 
 tend two masses every week. This of course supposes there 
 is the possibility or facility of doing so ; but whether the 
 arrangement refers to those in Rome or other places, I am 
 unable to say. One of these masses is to be celebrated or 
 attended, with the intention that the merits of the sacrifice 
 shall go before God, to forward the religious objects of the 
 member himself. The second mass goes to the General, 
 as it is to be oifered with the intention that its merits or 
 efficacy shall be presented before God, to move Him to 
 facilitate and advance whatever object may be in the mind 
 of the General. That object in the mind of the General 
 is unknown ; it is assumed to be holy and good, and this 
 second mass is designed to facilitate this unknown object ; 
 so that of the two masses to be offered by every member, 
 the merit or efficacy of the one goes to the account of the 
 member himself; and the merit or efficacy of the other to 
 the account of the General ! The very existence of such 
 an arrangement, and the acquiescence of astute and rational 
 men in the principle which it involves, is so alien from all 
 our notions of common sense and true religion, that it 
 
30 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 seems unworthy of even children. One man says a mass 
 with a secret and mental intention that the merits of his 
 act shall be attributed to the secret and mental intention of 
 another man ; wholly unknowing whether that intention 
 be one deserving heaven or hell ! 
 
 Sometimes the order admits among its members, novices 
 of no youthful age — men of years and experience ; but 
 generally the members are composed of those who had 
 been educated in their schools ; and having exhibited some 
 of those traits of mind and character which would suit 
 them as instruments of the order, they are watched, 
 managed, and admitted to the noviciate, and finally to the 
 order itself, in the fulness of membership ; they are often 
 admitted to take the vows at the age of eighteen ! This 
 system, though the very perfection of worldly wisdom for 
 the interests of the order, and the requisite training of the 
 member, is yet unnatural and cruel, as binding under irre- 
 vocable vows, "those who cannot possibly understand the 
 extent of those vows. There is first the vow of celibacy, 
 by which the novice excludes himself for ever from all the 
 hallowed affections of wife, and children, and home. The 
 second vow is that of poverty, by which the candidate 
 renounces all right and title to all his possessions, making 
 over the same generally to the order itself; and embracing 
 poverty as his portion, or as they express it, " accepting 
 the Lord as his portion." The order, as a body corporate, 
 may be as wealthy as the mines of Potosi, but the indivi- 
 dual members are literally penniless : dependent for each 
 article of clothing and each atom of food upon the General 
 and council of the order. The third vow is that of obe- 
 dience. After the first vow, by which he is snatched from 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 31 
 
 all those affections and ties th^t would bind him to society, 
 and becomes as it were a solitary in the world — after the 
 second vow, by which he parts with all his present posses- 
 sions or future rights in property, and by which he is made 
 the more dependent on the commandant of the order — after 
 these, he takes the vow of obedience, making surety doubly 
 sure, and renouncing for ever his own native-born freedom 
 of thought — his own natural liberty of action, and becom- 
 ing the mere tool and irresponsible instrument pledged to 
 do the bidding of his master — the General of the order. 
 These vows are imposed and taken not unfrequently at the 
 age of eighteen ! At that age a youth is induced to take 
 the vow by which he is bound never to marry, though he 
 is as yet wholly unable to comprehend the extent of the 
 vow, or his capacity or incapacity to keep so unnatural a 
 pledge. At that age a youth is induced to renounce all 
 the possessions to which he may be entitled on the death 
 of parents and other relations, when as yet he is too young 
 to know the value of independence or the importance of 
 wealth. At that age, he is induced to take the vow by 
 which he becomes the dependent and bond-slave qf men 
 more able and wily than himself ; and this before he is 
 able to appreciate the value of independent thought and 
 freedom of action. There is something that outrages every 
 law of nature, in the imposing such vows on a youth of 
 eighteen years ; and there is something wrong in the laws 
 of the land, when they refuse to protect those who are 
 unable in their youthfulness to protect themselves. It is 
 the duty of civil law, to shield the young from the cunning 
 craftiness of those who lie in wait to devour them, and to 
 snatch them, helpless as they are, from the jaws of eccle- 
 
32 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 siastical craft ; but alas ! it is the misery and the curse of 
 Rome and of all Italy, that the civil law is hut the engine 
 to strengthen, sanction, and enforce every device and re- 
 quirement of the ecclesiastical system. 
 
 Thus abandoning the ties of life — thus deprived, though 
 by their own act, of all their earthly possessions — thus 
 bound by the vow of obedience, the novices are taken into 
 the training, requisite to draw out and develope those 
 capacities that may make them the most fitting instruments 
 of the order. In due time they are severally placed in 
 those positions, where their fitness for employment may be 
 most surely tested and developed, and according as they 
 approve themselves, their destinies are fixed. The talented, 
 the zealous, and unscrupulous are awarded the highest des- 
 tinies. They attend in the courts of kings, and wield the 
 consciences of princes. The subtle and the wily take their 
 place behind the scenes, and themselves, unseen, are known 
 only by their influence. The learned and devout are 
 placed in the chairs of universities, and the libraries of the 
 great. The talentless and the dull are consigned to the 
 subordinate positions of menials in their colleges, or as 
 brothers in their convents. The religious and devoted are 
 sent as missionaries to distant lands, to exercise those feel- 
 ings which would interfere with the unscrupulousness re- 
 quired of them nearer home ; while if there be reason to 
 suspect the fidelity of any one — to fear treachery or deser- 
 tion from the order — if there be the least shadow of sus- 
 picion that the iniima penetralia of the system may be laid 
 open by the unfaithfulness of any member, then the sus- 
 pected one is suddenly removed, and is never heard of more, 
 unless as some missionary in far distant lands. He is in 
 
THE JESUITS AT HOME. 33 
 
 fact banished to some region, where he is incapable of 
 doing injury to the order ; where he is fully engaged, and 
 from whence he has no possibility of escape. 
 
 It is no small praise to this remarkable order, that the 
 character of its members is in high esteem for morality. 
 It is true that according to our English notions of clerical 
 propriety — of conventual austerity and monkish holiness, 
 we should expect no less from a religious order. But these 
 matters bear a very different complexion in the climate of 
 ■ Italy, and especially in Rome. There is nothing on which 
 the Christian pilgrim of England will find such real disap- 
 pointment, as in the oft-told and fondly-believed austerities 
 of the monastic life. On asking one monk whether he ever 
 prayed to a miraculous Image of the Virgin of which we 
 were conversing, he replied with the utmost seriousness, 
 that it was not a favourite with him, and that he never felt 
 moved to pray to it, as it was so very ugly ! This gentle- 
 man was perfectly serious, and was a very devout religion- 
 ist, of a very strict order. But the moral character of 
 the Jesuits at Eome is unimpeached. " We have been 
 charged," said one of them to me, " with many things, 
 — we have been charged with being crafty intriguers — with 
 intermeddUng in politics — with swaying princes — with dis- 
 turbing kingdoms — with embroiling families. We have 
 been charged with everything but one. No man has ever 
 charged us with personal immorality ! " This boast is 
 certainly true as respects the Jesuits of Rome ; and so true, 
 that whereas all men in that city hesitate not to denounce 
 the other monkish orders as idle, debauched, licentious, 
 they never breathe a whisper against the personal morality 
 of the Jesuits. One circumstance greatly assists this. No 
 
34 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Jesuit is permitted to leave the establishment alone. He 
 must always be in company with a second Jesuit, thus 
 having a spy on his actions and his words, as well as a 
 safeguard against those opportunities and occasions for sin 
 to which he might be exposed when alone. The General 
 himself is the only exception to this rule. Even when 
 visiting a private friend, or when ministerially engaged, the 
 Jesuit must appear with his companion, so that in my own 
 residence, where I had often had the pleasure of receiving 
 visits from the members of the order, I never knew an 
 instance of one coming without his companion ; and the 
 reason assigned was the regulation I have stated. This 
 arrangement goes far to protect their character from all 
 imputation and scandal, though it is said also to have other 
 advantages ; for by the Jesuits always appearing in their 
 peculiar costume, and in couples, the public are thrown off 
 their guard, in case the General should have an object in 
 sending one in ordinary attire, and unaccompanied, on any 
 special occasion. It would completely disarm suspicion ; 
 and the object might be effected, and yet the order never 
 appear in it. 
 
 I look on the order of the Jesuits as a grand conspi- 
 racy, conducted by the greatest talent, managed with the 
 profoundest secrecy, and carried out by the ablest agency 
 — a grand conspiracy to bring the nations under the eccle- 
 siastical empire of Papal Kome. The dome of St. Peter's 
 is to their imagining as the vault of heaven, and the empire 
 of the Papacy is to their yearnings as the sceptre of the 
 Godhead. They aspire to realize the millennial vision of 
 the Messiah, in the person of the Vicar of Christ en- 
 throned in the seat of empire, in a renovated Rome, re- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 35 
 
 ceiving the homage and reverence of all the nations of the 
 earth. And to accomplish this vision of heaven, they 
 employ the agency of hell. And yet there is much to 
 approve and to admire. At all events there is much that 
 lays hold on the mind, in the first young movement of re- 
 ligion in the heart. AH is directed to superinduce a frame 
 of humility — to bring down the mind from its high aspir- 
 ings, -to think lowly of self, and to regard every movement 
 of conscience as a rebellious feeling that must be humbled, 
 till the heart and intellect are placed in complete subjec- 
 tion, in a sort of simple, childlike submission to the autho- 
 rity of others. There is much in all this to captivate a 
 pious raind — a mind conscious of its sins — doubtful of its 
 own powers — a mind prostrated by some heavy affliction— 
 a mind in all its first love of religion making a virtue of 
 total submissiveness. When the mind has for a few years 
 been brought into this state, then there will be no difficulty 
 in the transition to the great secret and mystery of the 
 order — the duty of an implicit and unquestioning obedi- 
 ence. This is the actual state — the living and breathing 
 existence, of the great body of the Jesuits. It is out of 
 that large and numerous body that the chosen few are 
 selected, each according to the work to be accomplished. 
 And among so many, humble and submissive, there is 
 never a difficulty in finding the fitting tools for any work. 
 And then the prospect ! The unscrupulous Jesuit has be- 
 fore him a career which the world cannot parallel, a career 
 in which he can evoke the whole powers of the most power- 
 ful order in the world. Meanwhile the conscientious and 
 scrupulous sinks into the despised menial of some distant 
 convent, or becomes a tutor in some college, or he is 
 
36 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 banished as a missionary among savages ; or — he vanishes 
 out of sight ! 
 
 The following is an extract from the bull of Clement XIV., 
 (July 21st, 1773) for the suppression of the order. 
 
 ' "We have seen with grief of our heart that neither these 
 remedies nor an infinity of others, since employed, have 
 produced their due effects, or silenced the accusations and 
 complaints against the said society. Our predecessors. 
 Urban VII., Clement IX., &c., &c., employed, without 
 effect, all their efforts to the same purpose. In vain did 
 they endeavour, by salutary constitutions, to restore peace to 
 the church, as well with respect to secular affairs, %oith which 
 the company ought not to have interfered, as with regard to the 
 missions, which gave rise to great disputes and oppositions 
 on the part of the company with the ordinaries, with 
 other religious orders, about the holy places and commu- 
 nities of all sorts in Europe, Africa, and America, to the 
 great loss of souls and great scandal of the people. As like- 
 wise concerning the meaning and practice of certain idola- 
 trous ceremonies, adopted in certain places in contempt of 
 those justly approved by the Catholic Church. And further, 
 concerning the use and exposition of certain maxims, which 
 the Holy See has with reason proscribed, as scandalous and 
 manifestly contrary to good morals : and lastly, concerning 
 other matters of great importance and prime necessity, 
 towards preserving the integrity and purity of the doc- 
 trines of the gospel, from which maxims have resulted very 
 great inconveniences, and great detriment both in our days 
 and in past ages, such as the revolts and intestine troubles 
 in some of the cathedral states, persecutions against the 
 church, S(C. * * * * * 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 37 
 
 ' After so many storms, troubles, divisions, every good 
 man looked forward with impatience to the happy day, 
 which was to restore peace and tranquillity. But under 
 the reign of Clement XIII., the times became more diffi- 
 cult and tempestuous, complaints and quarrels were multi- 
 plied on every side, in some places dangerous seditions arose, 
 tumults, discord, dissensions, scandals, which weakening or 
 entirely breaking the hands of Christian charity, excited the 
 faithful to all the rage of party hatreds and enemies. Deso- 
 lation and danger grew to such a height, that the very 
 sovereigns, whose piety and liberality towards the company 
 were so well known as to be looked on as hereditary in 
 their families, — we mean our dearly-beloved sons in Christ, 
 the kings of France, Spain, Portugal, and Sicily-r-found 
 themselves reduced to the necessity of expelling and driving 
 from their states, kingdoms, and provinces, those very com- 
 panions of Jesus, persuaded that there remained no other 
 remedy to so great evils, and that this step was necessary in 
 order to prevent the Christians from rising one against 
 another ; and from massacring each other in the very bosom 
 of our common mother, the Holy Church. 
 
 ' Actuated, by so many and important considerations, 
 * * * after a mature deliberation, we do, out of our 
 certain knowledge, and the fulness of our apostoUc power,' 
 suppress and abolish the said company : we deprive it of all 
 activity whatever, — of its houses, schools, colleges, hospi- 
 tals, lands, and in short every other place belonging to the 
 said company in any manner whatever, in whatsoever king- 
 dom or province they may be situated. We abrogate and 
 annul its statutes, rules, customs, decrees, and constitu- 
 tions, even though confirmed by oath and approved by the 
 
38 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Holy See, or otherwise ; we declare all and every kind of 
 authority, the General, the Provincial, the Visitor, and 
 other superiors of the said society, to be annulled and 
 abolished for ever, of whatsoever nature the said authority 
 may be, as well in things spiritual as temporal, &c.' 
 
 The following is from the Bull of Pius VII., for the re- 
 storation of the order. It is dated August 7, 1814. 
 
 ' The catholic world demands, with unanimous voice, 
 the re-establishment of the company of Jesus. We should 
 deem ourselves guilty of a great crime against God, if 
 amidst these dangers of the Christian republic, we neglected 
 the aids which the special providence of God has placed at 
 our disposal ; and if, placed in the bark of Peter, tossed 
 and assailed by continual storms, we refused to employ the 
 vigorous and experienced rowers, who volunteer their ser- 
 vices, in order to break the waves of the sea which threaten 
 every moment shipwreck and death. Decided by motives 
 so numerous and powerful, we have resolved to do now 
 what we could have wished to have done at the commence- 
 ment of our pontificate. We therefore concede and grant, 
 &c. &c.' 
 
 ' We ordain that the present letters be inviolably ob- 
 served according to their form and tenor in all time coming 
 — that they enjoy their full and entire effect — that they 
 shall never be submitted to the judgment or revision of any 
 judge, with whatever power he may be clothed, declaring 
 null and of no effect, any encroachment on the present 
 regulations ; and this, notwithstanding any apostolic consti- 
 tutions and ordinances, especially the brief of Clement XIV., 
 of happy memory.' 
 
THE JKSUITS AT ROME. 39 
 
 NOTE. 
 
 The foregoing account of the Jesuits formed originally a 
 chapter of my former work, — "A Pilgkimageto Rome ; " 
 and is inserted here as a suitable introduction to these 
 conversations with some members of the Order. What- 
 ever may be its defects, it was forwarded to Rome, and the 
 Jesuit who communicated so much and so interesting in- 
 formation on a subject little known, and less understood in 
 this country, has recogiiised my narrative of our conversa- 
 tion, and avowing himself as my informant, undertakes to 
 correct my mistakes as to his meaning, and to rescue his 
 order from the suspicion and the odium entailed upon it 
 through my supposed misinterpretation. 
 The following is his statement : — 
 
 " In this chapter, Mr. Seymour has represented, or misrepre- 
 sented, a rather long conversation which I had with him on the 
 Society of Jesus, in the presence of Mrs. Seymour and a friend. 
 It was not enthusiasm for my order which prompted me to speak 
 at large on this subject, hut a real wish I had to inculcate upon 
 them the great value of two virtues, so little known to Protestant 
 minds, that is, humility and obedience; and to make them under- 
 stand how in the Catholic religion the love of Christ and the 
 desire of imitating Him may induce so many men to sacrifice all 
 for his sake, and embrace a life of self-denial. I spoke really 
 with warmth, because I did aim at being impressive. I declared 
 at first, how humility and obedience had been recommended by 
 our Lord both by his example and doctrines. I shewed how 
 our Society was founded on both these virtues ; how we are 
 trained to them by our Constitutions, and how the Exercises of 
 St. Ignatius chiefly conduce to that end. I insisted on the fact, 
 that our obedience was not paid to man and for man, but to 
 
40 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Christ Himself, and for Christ's sake : that we aimed at a full 
 indifference about places, employments, and conveniences, in 
 order to attain, through holy obedience, to our end, which is the 
 salvation and sanctification of ourselves and our neighbours. 
 
 " They were most silent and attentive to my speech, nor did 
 I hear, as far as I remember, a word of disgust and disapproval 
 on their side. Now let us come to Mr. Seymour's narrative. 
 He states that he could very easily, in my excitement and en- 
 thusiasm for the order, bring me by successive enquiries to the 
 plain declaration that, according to our rules, we feel obliged to 
 obey our superiors, even then when the order might be against 
 our religious convictions, our moral feelings, and conscientious 
 scruples : in a word, when there would be a real sin. This is, I 
 must say, aplain falsehood. I don'trememberthathe addressed 
 to me any query of such a kind ; but if he had, how could I have 
 replied in the way he pretends, since in our Constitutions we are 
 more than once expressly taught and directed, that we ought to 
 obey in all things wherein no sin is to be found? "in omnibus 
 ubi peccatum non ccrneretur." {Summarium Cunstitutionem, No. 
 31.) This very same charge against our Society had been 
 made some thirteen years ago, brought forth by Ranke in his 
 History of the Popedom ; and a refutation of it, through the 
 original passages of our Constitutions, was inserted in the 
 Roman periodical, Gli Annali delle Scienze Religiose, of which I 
 was a collaborateur. How, then, could I have so lost my wits as 
 to express such an opinion as Mr. Seymour attributes to me ? 
 
 " Again, he says that, according to my confessions, a Jesuit 
 must be prepared, and may expect, to be sent by his superior as 
 a messenger, or a servant, or a footman, to act as a spy in some 
 important family, or as a private secretary or minister of a pri7ice 
 in Germany. When speaking of our indifference to all offices, 
 I alluded of course to such offices as are within the range of our 
 Institute, and connected with our religious vocation. But the 
 offices mentioned by Mr. Seymour were never heard of in the 
 Society, and are mere fancies of his own brain. 
 
 " Further, I may have said that when we are ordered to do 
 something, or employed in any office by holy obedience, after 
 having done our best to fulfil it well, we are not accountable to 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 41 
 
 God for the success. But Mr. Seymour has so misconstrued 
 my meaning, as to state, ' that in all the sayings and actions of 
 the memhers, they are saying and acting in obedience to autho- 
 rity ; and that in almost everything in which individual Jesuits 
 are the objects of praise or censure, they deserve neither the 
 one nor the other, the praise and the censure belonging properly 
 to the General and council of the Order, and not to the indi- 
 vidual Jesuit, — as though the Jesuits were quite stripped of every 
 personal merit or demerit, and their personal actions and exer- 
 tions were of no account. A pure nonsense ! I really spoke of 
 the manner in which everj' one in our society is as far as pos- 
 sible directed to cultivate and foster those natural abilities, 
 energies, and dispositions, which are discovered in each ; a 
 proof, truly, that the Society proceeds towards her subjects with 
 wisdom and motherly care, not with a despotic sway. But Mr. 
 Seymour comments on it, by mentioning that even political in- 
 trigue is fostered by the General in those who show a taste and 
 aptitude for it. He should be aware that by our Constitutions 
 we are most slnctly forbidden to meddle with politics at all. Upon 
 the whole, he describes us (and always appealing to my state- 
 ments) as the mere tools of the General and his council for any 
 even dark design and crime. I would have referred him to the 
 very excellent pamphlet of F. Ravignan, De I'Existence et de 
 V Institute des Msuits, chiefly in chapte-rs 4 and 5, on obedfence, 
 and on the government of the Society. Mr. Seymour, who 
 speaks of the Society as a great conspiracy to bring the nations 
 under the ecclesiastical empire of papal Rome, must learn to 
 understand that the Society has only one great object, that of 
 saving souls, of winning souls to Christ, and consequently to 
 the true Church of Christ, but by those means only which Christ 
 has recommended, and the Apostles and apostolic men have 
 employed. There is no dark design, no mischievous engine in 
 her. The book of the Exercises, which is really her most power- 
 ful weapon, has been translated and circulated in England; it 
 has been tried by the Anglicans themselves; so all is in the full 
 light of day. But the ignorance of Mr. Seymour about the 
 Order of which he speaks so confidently is capital." 
 
42 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 The principal point in all this is, the attempted vindica- 
 tion of the members of the Order from the charge of pay- 
 ing to the superior an obedience too submissive — even to 
 the extent of obeying a command contrary to the religious, 
 moral and conscientious scruples or convictions of the in- 
 dividual — a command that may involve a sin. 
 
 This is not precisely my statement. That which I stated, 
 as detailed to me by Padre Mazio, was, that when a com- 
 mand was given which seemed to the individual member to 
 require him to perform some action which was opposed to 
 his feelings, his scruples, his conscience, and which seemed 
 even to be sinful, he was so trained by the moral system of 
 the Order, that he at once persuaded himself that he ought 
 not to suppose that his superior would issue a command 
 that was sinful — that he ought modestly rather to assume, 
 that he himself erred in his view of the character of the 
 action — that humility required of him to think his own 
 judgment probably wrong, and the judgment of his supe- 
 rior more weighty and right — and that thus, by humbly 
 waivmg his own opinion, as to the sinfulness of the action, 
 by implicitly deferring to the more weighty judgment of 
 the superior who issued the command, he satisfied his own 
 conscience, obviated his own scruples, and ceasing to regard 
 it as sinful, he thought it his duty no longer to question or 
 to doubt, but imphcitly to obey. My charge, as derived 
 from the statement of my informant, was, — not that the 
 Jesuit would obey a command to sin, thinking it to be a sin, 
 but that he was trained to doubt his own opinion, to waive 
 his own judgment, to think it his duty and his merit to 
 surrender his own convictions, and thus to obey a command 
 which he had otherwise regarded as sinful. In deference 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 43 
 
 to the judgment of the superior, it was now to be regarded 
 as lawful. 
 
 Padre Mazio refers to two authorities, as embodying the 
 true principles of the order on this point, namely, " The 
 Exercises of St. Ignatius," and " The Constitutions of the 
 Society of Jesus." A reference to these authorities will 
 enable all persons to judge of the accuracy or inaccuracy of 
 my views. 
 
 The following is in " the Constitutions." 
 
 " That holy obedience may be perfect in us in every point, in 
 execution, in will, in intellect, doing whatever is enjoined us 
 with all celerity, with spiritual joy and perseverance, persuading 
 ourselves that all is right, suppressing every repugnant thought 
 of our own, in a sure obedience, and that moreover in all things 
 which are determined by the Superior, wherein it cannot be 
 defined, as is said, any kind of sin appears. And let every one 
 persuade himself, that they who live under obedience, should 
 permit themselves to be moved and directed under Providence 
 by their Superiors, just as if they were a corpse [ac si cadaver 
 essent,) which allows itself to be moved and handled in any wa)', 
 or AS the staff of an aged man {atque senis baculus) which 
 serves him, wherever and in whatever thing he, who holds it in 
 his hand, pleases to use it. Thus obedient, he should execute 
 anything on which the Superior chooses to employ him in the 
 service of the whole body of the Society, with cheerfulness of 
 mind, and altogether believe that he will answer the divine ivill better 
 in that way than in any other which he can follow in compliance with 
 his own will and differing judgment." 
 
 In all this it is required that the individual Jesuit shall 
 present himself as a corpse, and as a staff. The members are 
 to have no will, no feehng, no conscience of their own. They 
 must passively and mechanically obey the will, the feehng, 
 the conscience of those who use them. They do not think, 
 but only perform. The individual Jesuit is thus required 
 
44 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 to become as a passive thing — a mere machine in the hands 
 of his superiors. And in case there might seem something 
 sinful in the command — something wrong — something re- 
 pugnant to his secret thought and private judgment, he is 
 expressly enjoined to "persuade himself that all is right, 
 suppressing every repugnant thought and judgment " — not 
 indeed doing that which he sees and thinks to be sinful, 
 but stifling his scruples, and "persuading himself that all 
 
 IS BIGHT." 
 
 The following is from " The Exercises," and forms a 
 practical Commentary on the preceding. 
 
 " In order that we may altogether be of the same mind, and 
 ill conformity with the Church herself, if she shall have defined 
 anything to be black, which to our ei/es appear to be white, we ought 
 in the same way to pronounce it to be black. — [Autograph.'] — That 
 we may in all things attain to the truth, that we may not err in 
 anything, we ought ever to hold it as a fixed principle that 
 whatlsee to be white I shall believe it to be bl^ck, if the Hierarchical 
 Church define it to be so." 
 
 There is the fixed principle of the Jesuits, as set forth 
 in the very authority to which Padre Mazio twice refers us, 
 the authorized exposition of the moral principles of the 
 Order ! It is the thirteenth rule of the eighteen rules esta- 
 blished by Ignatius Loyola, for promoting uniformity with 
 the mind of the Church. It must be acknowledged as 
 sufficiently definite ; illustrating how a command, which 
 seems to be black or sinful in the eyes of an individual, is 
 to be regarded as white or sinless when it comes from the 
 superior authority. 
 
 The other particulars referred to by Padre Mazio seem 
 scarcely to require so much as an explanation. He says 
 that his object in alluding to the virtues of humility and 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 45 
 
 obedience was simply to impress their value upon us as 
 being virtues little known among Protestants ! He seemeA 
 to me rather to have dwelt on them with a view to illus- 
 trate the great piety, the humble obedient spirit of the 
 Order of Jesuits ; and I am still of the same opinion, as I 
 have a very perfect recollection of the circumstances under 
 which his observations were introduced. And as to what 
 is stated respecting the liability of a Jesuit being appointed 
 as a spy in a private family, — as a footman in one and a 
 secretary in another, as a minister of state in one country 
 and the confessor in the Royal Closet of another, it is ap- 
 parent that all this was no more than my own inference, 
 from the statement of my informant, and was certainly 
 never ascribed to him. And finally where he informs us 
 that all Jesuits are forbidden by the constitutions of the 
 Order to meddle in politics, he might have written more to 
 the purpose, if he had informed us why the whole world 
 has denounced them as a Society of political and, religious 
 intriguers. The Bull of Pope Clement/XrV, sets forth 
 that — " Our dearly beloved sons in Christ, the Kings of 
 France, Spain, Portugal, and Sicily, found themselves re- 
 duced to the necessity of expelling and driving from their 
 states the Company of Jesus, being persuaded that there 
 remained no other remedy to so great evils, and that this 
 step was necessary in order to prevent the Christians from 
 rising one against another, and from massacring each other 
 in the very bosom, of our common Mother, the Holy Church." 
 Such was the formal judgment of the Court of Rome, and 
 after such an authority as to the intensity of their factions 
 and intrigues, it is too much to tell us that they never 
 meddle in politics. At least we must not be expected to 
 believe it. 
 
46 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 CHAPTER II. 
 
 AN ORDINATION — A VISIT TO THE JESUITS — EXPLANATION OP MY 
 VIEWS — THE LAYING ON OF HANDS — THE PRIESTLY POWER OF AB- 
 SOLUTION AND OF SACRIFICE — THE RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT AT OXFORD 
 — THE RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT IN GERMANY— THE NATURE OF THE 
 ABSOLVING POWER — WHETHER JUDICIAL OR DECLABATOBY — THE 
 OPINIONS OF THE TWO CHURCHES COMPARED. 
 
 I NOV? commence my narrative of the conversations which 
 took place, between myself and certain members of this 
 celebrated Order. 
 
 The day was far advanced, when the hour appointed for 
 the visit of the Jesuits had arrived. The morning had 
 been occupied by me in attendance at the great Church, 
 or Basilica of S. Giovanni di Laterano. It is the Senior 
 Basilica of Rome, taking precedence even of St. Peter's 
 itself. The object of my attendance there was to witness 
 the form of ordination. Ninety-two young men were that 
 morning ordained, admitted into the various orders of the 
 Church of Rome. They are seveii in number, and I was 
 glad of the opportunity of witnessing the ceremonial ; and 
 certainly it was a deeply interesting sight ; for however I 
 might dissent from the system of the Church, and however 
 strongly I might feel indignant at what might seem to be 
 superstitious or unscriptural, it yet could not fail to be a 
 touching and beautiful sight, to witness the self-devotion 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 47 
 
 and vowed consecration of ninety-two men, in the flower 
 and vigour of early manhood, to the service of God. As 
 the several candidates for the various orders performed 
 the prescribed ceremonials, according to the rules of the 
 Pontifical, — as I held the Pontifical in my hand and care- 
 fully followed every step in its performance, — as I saw 
 some standing, some kneeling, and some prostrate with 
 face on the earth, — as I observed some receiving one order 
 and some another, in different yet regulated forms, — as I 
 saw the laying on of hands, the tonsure, the giving the 
 chalice, the unfolding the chasuble, the tying the hands, 
 the anointing the fingers, the washing, the communion, I 
 could not but feel that the formalities were very puerile, 
 but I felt still more my heart stirring within me in prayer, 
 that the Holy Ghost might indeed descend from above, 
 and make them faithful and fearless in preaching the ever- 
 lasting gospel of Christ. It was the Cardinal- Vicar who 
 conferred the orders. 
 
 I had returned home after this spectacle, and was look- 
 ing over the Pontifical, examining a point which had much 
 impressed me, when two visitors were announced. They 
 were two Jesuits. They came in the peculiar costume of 
 the order. One was a Priest, and the other a Lay-Bro- 
 ther, but according to the rule of the order, as observed 
 at Rome, they were robed alike, the whole body, from the 
 Padre-Generale himself, to the lowliest Lay-Brother who 
 is porter at the gate, being dressed in costume precisely 
 the same. It consists of a black cassock, extending from 
 the throat to the ankles, without any ornament beyond a 
 little brass medal and chain, appended to the waist. The 
 cravat is white, but so narrow as to be scarcely observable 
 
48 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 above the cassock, and over all is a bLick cloak, neat, 
 plain, and without sleeves. The hat is remarkable for the 
 great breadth of its leaf. It is not red like those of the 
 Cardinals, nor white like those of the Camaldolines, nor 
 decorated with rosettes and bands of orange, green, &c., 
 like those of the Prelates, all which seem so strange to 
 our English tastes. It is black and turned up slightly at 
 the sides, without any bow or other ornament. The cos- 
 tume as a whole is neat and seemly, and as elegant and 
 becoming as any ecclesiastical or academic costume can be. 
 It certainly surpasses in this particular, the style and ap- 
 pearance of the other monastic or religious orders ; for it 
 bears the stamp of studied neatness and propriety, while 
 that of some of the other orders is exquisitely grotesque 
 and ridiculous. 
 
 In a few moments we all were as much at ease, as the 
 peculiar object and nature of the visit could permit. The 
 interchange of mutual courtesies, and some words upon 
 general subjects, soon led to the object of our meeting. 
 
 The reverend Padre opened it, by saying that he had 
 been directed to wait on me in consequence of my desire 
 for information as to some particulars in the Church of 
 Rome, — that he was informed that I was an Anglican 
 clergyman, who was wishing to withdraw from the Church 
 of England, and to hold communion with the Catholic 
 Church ; and that he came to assist me, as far as lay in 
 his power, in carrying out my desire. And he concluded 
 by asking me in an earnest manner and in an under voice, 
 whether there was anything particular which I wished to 
 communicate. 
 
 I did not choose to notice this sotto voce communication, 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 49 
 
 but I said at once that there must be some mistake ; that 
 some one must have misinformed him ; for that I was an 
 attached member of the Church of England, — that I had 
 as one of her clergy held preferment in her, but had re- 
 signed ray appointment, — that I was perfectly independent 
 in my circumstances and my feelings, that I had always 
 been warmly opposed to the Church of Rome, as well as 
 sincerely attached to the Church of England ; and that I 
 had now visited Rome, with a desire to see and judge all 
 things for myself, to change, modify, or confirm my former 
 opinions, after a free and fair examination of everything to 
 which I might be so fortunate as to obtain access. 
 
 He stated at once and with extreme courtesy, the plea- 
 sure he should feel in facilitating my object, and expressed 
 his readiness to give me all the information in his power,. 
 But that he did not see why I should be unwilling to join 
 the communion of his Church ; since it was allowed by all 
 parties that there was a true Church at Rome, and that 
 there was no other than one, and therefore he thought 
 that, as an Anglican clergyman, I might not be unwilling 
 to do as did some others, — namely, while at Rome, join in 
 the communion of that church. 
 
 I replied that, whether rightly or wrongly founded, I 
 felt great and strong prejudices against the Church of 
 Rome, — that all my feelings and experience were against 
 her ; and that I felt so many objections and difficulties in 
 the way of communicating with her, that there was much 
 to be answered and removed before I could give him any 
 hope of my joining her ; but that I was fully prepared to 
 hear all that might be said in her defence, and that I be- 
 heved myself sufficiently open to conviction, and sufficiently 
 
 D 
 
50 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 candid to acknowledge it, if convinced, and sufficiently fear- 
 less to act on it. 
 
 He questioned me as to the nature of my difficulties, 
 and suggested naturally to me that I should state my oh- 
 jections, that he might have the opportunity of removing 
 them. 
 
 I could not but acquiesce in this. It was precisely the 
 position in which I desired to be placed. But I felt that . 
 my commencement must be vrith extreme caution, lest I 
 should awaken suspicion and elicit actual opposition. I 
 wished to be an enquirer, rather than a controvertist ; and 
 I was led to begin with a point that exactly suited my 
 object with a man, who imagined me to be one of those, 
 who under the name of Anglican clergy, have all their 
 ideas and feelings, all their minds and hearts with the 
 Roman Church. The Roman Pontifical was in my hands 
 at the moment. 
 
 I told him, that I bad attended at the ordination that 
 morning at S. Giovanni di Laterano, — that I had observed 
 what was to my mind a most remarkable omission, namely, 
 the omission of the " laying-on of hands," as the act of 
 ordination ; — that, although there was at an early part of 
 the ceremonial a laying-on of hands, yet it was only for 
 the purpose of designation, and not of ordination ; — as 
 designating the person to be afterwards ordained, and not 
 as the act of ordination itself; — that the candidates for 
 orders were called ordinandi even after laying-on of hands, 
 shewing that they were not regarded as ordained by that 
 act, but only set apart to be afterwards ordsdned, and that 
 they were not called ordinati until the chalice was given to 
 them, with the words " accipe potestatem, &c.," " Receive 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 61 
 
 power to offer the sacrifice of the mass for the living and 
 the dead." I said that this showed.^ that, in the Church 
 of Rome, orders were conferred, not by laying-on of hands 
 with prayer, but by the deUvering of the chalice, &c. ; 
 whereas, if, as some suppose in England, the virtue of 
 orders in the apostolic succession can only pass through 
 the hands of the ordaining bishop, there can be none such 
 in the Church of Rome. In her the virtue or grace of the 
 apostolic succession passes through the chalice, and not 
 through the laying-on of the hands of the bishop. 
 
 He replied by saying that the ordination was a continu- 
 ous act, one that commenced with the laying-on of hands, 
 and ended with the delivering of the chalice, — that though 
 the former was for designation, and the latter for ordina- 
 tion, yet with the former was connected the power of abso- 
 lution, and with the latter that of sacrificing, — that by the 
 former was conferred the power of absolving sins, and by 
 the latter that of offering the sacrifice of the mass. He 
 argued that it was to be regarded as one act. 
 
 After some further conversation on this point he went on 
 to say, that there were two distinct powers conferred upon 
 a Priest. One being inherent in his priesthood and inhe- 
 rent in every priest, — a power over , the literal and natural 
 body of our Lord, that is, the power of transubstantiation ; 
 the other being null and void unless with the sanction of 
 the bishop ; not inherent in his priesthood, but ceded to 
 the priest by the bishop, that is, the power over his mystical 
 or spiritual body, in other words — the power of absolution, 
 
 I said that I was to infer from this that a priest could 
 celebrate mass, that is, could transubstantiate the bread 
 and wine into Christ, and offer him for the sins of the living 
 D 2 
 
52 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 and the dead, without the sanction of the hishop ; but that 
 he could not absolve the sins of his people without that 
 episcopal sanction. 
 
 He replied that this was precisely the case ; that he 
 ' could celebrate mass without the bishop, but could not 
 absolve from sins without the bishop ; that the former 
 power was inherent in his priesthood, the latter not. 
 
 I felt that he had placed himself in a difficult position 
 bj' this statement ; so I remarked, — If a priest has no power 
 to pronounce absolution, without the bishop's license ; and 
 yet can say mass without it, then there can be no efficacy 
 in the absolution which he reads, and which the canon of 
 the mass requires him to read. Assuredly if he can cele- 
 brate mass of his inherent power, he can give absolution 
 of his inherent power ; for that absolution is part of the 
 mass, and is therefore involved in it. 
 
 His answer to this was very remarkable. He had no 
 way of escape but one, and that one he did not hesitate to 
 adopt. He said that the absolution involved in the mass 
 is of no value or efficacy, — that it is only a general absolu- 
 tion of persons of whose sins the priest knows nothing, and 
 of whose repentance he knows nothing, and therefore it is 
 of no efficacy or value, and has no effect ; for, he continued, 
 if the persons have repented, then God has already forgiven 
 them, and if they have not repented, then this absolution 
 in the mass cannot help them. 
 
 I was conscious of the advantage which I might derive 
 from this statement, and I therefore took care to dwell on 
 it and to reiterate it, that it might become an assumed 
 point, an admitted principle between us, to be employed in 
 our after-argument. I waited patiently till our conversa- 
 
THE JESUITS AT KOME. 53 
 
 tion should take such a turn, that I might avail myself 
 eiFectively of so important an admission. 
 
 The conversation immediately took another direction. 
 He asked me respecting the movement at Oxford ; re- 
 marking that the Anglican Church was now in a most in- 
 teresting state, ^that it was giving great promise of many 
 and of better things, — that the late or present religious 
 movement within her, was now interesting all Rome, and 
 Europe, and the whole world. And he concluded by asking 
 me my opinion of the movement. 
 
 This was the very last question which I wished to answer. 
 I felt it might oblige me to avow my opinions sooner as well 
 as more strongly than I desired. I feared the question 
 might have been proposed with the view to test me, — to 
 ascertain my party ; and thus to determine the course he 
 should pursue. I knew that if I at once avowed myself a 
 decided antagonist, he would withdraw from all further 
 intercourse with me. 
 
 I therefore answered his enquiry by saying, that I had 
 been careful to read all the " Tracts for the Times," which 
 were the profession of faith with those, among whom the 
 movement originated, — that I did not agree with many of 
 their statements and principles ; and that I thought that 
 my reverend friend was mistaken as to their probable effect 
 on the mind of the people of England, — an effect of the 
 very opposite character from that which seemed to be the 
 intention of those who originated it. 
 
 He asked me, whether I did not think that they tended 
 to create a similarity or union of the Anglican Church with 
 the Roman Church. 
 
 I replied that such seemed to be the intention of the 
 
54 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 parties. They seemed yearning for a union with Rome, 
 but that I apprehended a very diiferent and opposite result ; 
 — that their J)roceedings would evoke, and indeed had 
 already evoked, an antagonist spirit, which would be alto- 
 gether too powierful for them, and I feared would do incal- 
 culable mischief to the Church. 
 
 He said he was aware that the Anglican Bishops in 
 general had set themselves against the movement, but he 
 seemed to treat their interference very lightly. He then 
 begged of me to explain my idea of the manner in which 
 the movement was likely to operate. 
 
 I answered that the Anglican Church stood between two 
 systems, — between Romanism and Dissent. These were 
 the two extremes, to one or other of which all who loved 
 extremes were likely to precipitate themselves. The party 
 of the movement desired to draw her nearer and nearer to 
 Rome, — to give her more and more a similarity to the 
 Church of Rome ; and by that very course had led their 
 opponents to run into the opposite extreme. It had evoked 
 an antagonist spirit, that was sure to lead nearer and nearer 
 to Dissent : and I added that my own conviction was, that 
 the real evil, the impending danger was, the people for- 
 saking the Church of England, as a Church declining 
 towards Rome ; and then utterly overthrowing and destroy- 
 ing her, — a danger like that which arose out of the pro- 
 ceedings of Archbishop Laud, in the time of Charles I. ; 
 namely, the utter subversion of the Church of England. 
 
 He intimated that he had not seen the movement in that 
 light, but rather regarded it as one likely to lead the Church 
 of England towards the Church of Rome, — that all parties 
 of all Churches seemed agreed, that the. movement could 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 55 
 
 not stop where it was, — that the active movers would come 
 over, and if honest in their statements, and sincere in their 
 opinions, must come over — to the Church of Rome ;, and 
 that so far at least the Church of Rome must be a gainer ; 
 — that however it might end for the Church of England, 
 it must prove a gain to the Church of Rome, that they 
 could not remain as they were, but must go further ; and 
 he felt that the course taken by such good men was certain 
 to exert a great weight and influence upon others. 
 
 I was silent, except so far as assenting to his opinion 
 respecting the parties engaged in the movement. He 
 observed this, and continued to say, that there was a 
 large and increasing section of the Church of England, 
 steadily and surely inclining to the Church of Rome ; that 
 thus a great division existed in the very heart of the 
 Church of England, and that thus there were many, who 
 would embrace, and were embracing, the very system 
 against which I objected ; and he added, that although 
 I might not be aware of the fact, yet he knew it from 
 sources of information that were not accessible to all, that 
 multitudes in England were privately coming over to the 
 Church of Rome. 
 
 On my remarking in reply, that his statement was very 
 probable, and that the members of his order, the order of 
 Jesuits, were likely to have very accurate information, he 
 said that the existence of such a division in the Church of 
 England, was a strong argument against my remaining in 
 her, and that the multitude of good men leaving her and 
 entering the Church of Rome, was a further argument for 
 my forsaking the one Church, and embracing the other, — 
 in short, that it formed a strong objection to remaining in 
 the Church of England. 
 
56 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 I said, in as quiet a tone as I could command, as if in- 
 different to the result of my words, that 1 did not see how 
 his statement as to the facts, whether true or untrue, could 
 affect the principle of the question, — that I thought the 
 argument derivjed from the existence of a division or coun- 
 ter-movement in a Church, was an argument that cut both 
 ways ; that at that moment there was a division and move- 
 ment in the Church of Rome, arising out of the exhibition 
 of the Holy Coat at Trives ; * and that several of the 
 priesthood were the leaders of the movement, — that these 
 parties were calling for a change or reformation in several 
 -particulars, — that they were demanding that the sacramen- 
 tal cup should be given to the laity, — ^that some of them 
 were actually administering it, — that they were celebrating 
 their services in the vernacular tongue, — that they were 
 calling for a rescinding of the laws on the celibacy of the 
 priesthood, — that this movement occurring in Germany, 
 was quite as marked in the Church of Rome, as the move- 
 ment at Oxford in the Church of England ; and therefore, 
 I added, the movement in Germany was as cogent an 
 objection to the Church of Rome, as the movement at 
 Oxford was to the Church of England. 
 
 He flushed and fired at this statement, declaring that 
 the movement in Germany was nothing, — that they were 
 only a set of rebels,^— that they were merely a few rebel- 
 lious priests who would soon be brought down. They were 
 
 * This conversation was held, when the excitement in Germany was at 
 its height. The Roman government suppressed every newspaper of all 
 nations mentioning it. The Roman people were profoundly ignorant of 
 it, and even the English learned it only through the means of private 
 correspondence. Newspapers describing it were suppressed at the Poat 
 Office, and not delivered even to the English residents. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 57 
 
 unworthy of notiGe, — bad and rebellious priests, who would 
 soon be reduced to obedience. 
 
 I said that he seemed mistaken, — that as the papal 
 government excluded " The Times," and other English, 
 German, and French papers, describing the movement, not 
 permitting the facts to be made known at Rome, it was 
 possible he was not aware of the extent and importance of 
 the movement, — that they circulated only those papers 
 which were hostile to the movement, and that thus I ap- 
 prehended he might be deceiving himself, as to the extent 
 and importance of the movement, which had already suc- 
 ceeded to a considerable extent. 
 
 My reverend friend was thoroughly upset and irritated 
 by this turn of the conversation, and I was glad to let it 
 pass to other topics, even though connected with the move- 
 ment at Oxford. He observed that he thought the Church 
 of England very inconsistent towards these men and towards 
 herself, — that she admitted the ancient and Catholic sacra- 
 ment of penance ; that is, as he explained it, she recognised 
 the power of absolution, but that she did not exercise it, — 
 that she went so far as to confer that power on her priests, 
 but expelled them for exercising it, — that the Lutheran and 
 the Reformed Churches had rejected the thing altogether ; 
 and were therefore consistent, but that the Anglican Church 
 admitted and recognised the thing, conferred the power 
 on her priests, but did not exercise it, and was inconsistent. 
 
 I said that I thought he did wrong to the Anglican 
 Church ; that she recognised and held a certain power, — 
 that she conferred this power on her ministers,— that those 
 ministers exercised that power, and were not, as he sup- 
 posed, expelled for it, — that it was their duty and constant 
 
58 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 practice to exercise all, neither more nor less, that the 
 Church designed to confer on them. I then added, that I 
 feared he had misunderstood her formularies, — that she 
 confers only a power to declare or pronounce authoritatively 
 God's absolution and forgiveness of sins ; and that all her 
 ministers exercise, and cannot help in her daily services 
 exercising this power, which is all the Church confers on 
 them ; and that therefore she is thus far consistent. But 
 as she does not pretend to confer a judicial power to judge 
 the sinner and absolve the sin, as in the Church of Rome, 
 so her ministers do not pretend to exercise that, and thus 
 there is no inconsistency. 
 
 His rejoinder to this was, that our Lord conferred two 
 powers, one to " bind," and the other to " loose ;" and 
 that as the bishops of the Anglican Church exercised the 
 power of excommunication, they therein exercised the power 
 to " bind " the sin upon the sinner, but never exercised the 
 power of, " loosing " by absolution, taking away the sin. 
 And that this was a great inconsistency. 
 
 I answered that, by our laws, if a bishop excommunicated 
 a person for any canonical fault, he must take off that ex- 
 communication, and again receive him, on his open repent- 
 ance, — that if he thus exercises one power, he must under 
 these circumstances exercise the other, and that thus if the 
 excommunicating and restoring power of a bishop, peculiar 
 as it was to the bishop, and not to the priest, was the 
 power to " bind," and. " loose," then both were exercised 
 among us, and there was no inconsistency. I then added 
 that if his views were carried out, it would imply that the 
 power to "bind," and "loose," belonged only to the bishops, 
 and not to priests. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 59 
 
 He avoided noticing this, and reiterated his statement in 
 another form, saying that we ought to sit as judges on the 
 sinner, and exercise a judicial power over him : either bind- 
 ing the sin on the sinner, or loosing him from his sin ; and 
 thus plaaiug him sinless before God in order to his salvation. 
 
 I said that his words implied or seemed to convey an 
 idea, for which I was scarcely prepared, and therefore I 
 asked, — If the " loosing " the sinner from his sin makes 
 him sinless before God and so secures his salvation, — would 
 not the " binding " his sin upon the sinner keep him sinful 
 before God, and so ensure his damnation ? I added that 
 the one must be co-extensive with the other, and this would 
 be placing the damnation, as well as the salvation of the 
 man, in the hands of the priest. 
 
 He avoided this, and, as if he had never heard me, 
 turned away to other subjects of a more general nature. I 
 felt very unwilling to keep him to the point, lest by doing 
 so he might be led to regard me as a controversialist, pre- 
 pared to dispute with him ; rather than as an Anglican 
 clergyman in a friendly conversation, seeking for infor- 
 mation. 
 
 It was not long before we returned to the judicial power 
 of the priest. In reference to this he said, that the priest 
 was a judge to give or withhold forgiveness, to bind or 
 loose the sin as he judges best. He must form his judg- 
 ment to the*best of his power, and bind or loose accordingly ; 
 and then God confirms and fulfils that judgment, binding 
 in Hell, or loosing in Heaven, according as the priest, who 
 was his judge and reconciler, should adjudge. 
 
 I asked whether, — seeing that the priest was but a man, 
 and therefore liable to an error in judgment, — his judgment 
 
60 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 was always and certainly confirmed and fulfilled by God, 
 damning or saving, according as the priest bound or loosed 
 on earth. I added that my question had special reference 
 to such a supposed case, as the priest making an error in 
 judgment ; as in that case, although in error, it would seem 
 that he had unlimited power for saving or damning, if his 
 judgment on earth was always confirmed in heaven. 
 
 He replied, , that of course where the priest, as judge, 
 erred in his judgment, as to the repentance of the sinner, 
 and the absolution of the sin, his judgment was not 
 affirmed by God, — that in that case, though he bound on 
 earth, yet it was not bound in heaven ; and though he 
 loosed on earth, it was not loosed in heaven. 
 
 I said I wished to understand this point clearly, and 
 begged he would correct me if I was wrong, in inferring 
 that if the priest judged erroneously, as to the repentance 
 or non-repentance of the sinner ; and if he acted on that 
 erroneous judgment, in binding or loosing the sinner, it 
 would then be of no avail. 1 asked especially whether in 
 such a case, the absolution of this judge, sitting and judg- 
 ing judicially, was of any value. 
 
 He answered emphatically, that it was " void." 
 
 I felt that now the argument was in my hands, and my 
 mind turned in secret to Him who alone could still my 
 nervous throbbings and excitement; and enable me to 
 speak with calmness and accuracy ; for, at times, when I 
 considered that I was dealing with men on whom I had 
 always learned to look as the most subtle controversialists, 
 I feared the truth might fail through my inability to cope 
 with them. 
 
 I reminded him that he had made two admissions or 
 
THE JESUITS AT EOME. 61 
 
 rather had laid down two things, which seemed to me all- 
 important on this point. In the first place he had freely 
 stated, that if the sinner had not repented, then the abso- 
 lution of the priest, however pronounced, was " void." In 
 the second place he had frankly stated, at the commence- 
 ment of our conversation respecting the absolution in the 
 mass, that if the sinner had indeed 'repented, then the abso- 
 lution was useless, inasmuch as he was already absolved by 
 God ; and having on repentance received forgiveness from 
 God himself, he did not need the absolution of man. It 
 would be reversing the words, and reading, not " whatso- 
 ever is loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven," but 
 " whatsoever is loosed in heaven shall be loosed on earth." 
 It was doing over again what had been already done by 
 God himself, I stated that every man in England, on 
 hearing his statements respecting the judicial power of ab- 
 solving, would argue that if the sinner did repent, the abso- 
 lution of man was useless, inasmuch as he had already the 
 forgiveness of God ; and if the sinner did not repent, the 
 absolution, on his own shewing, was void, as arising from 
 an error of judgment in the priest. I added that this was 
 a process of reasoning which ought to be answered, and 
 that I should feel glad if he could supply me with an ade- 
 quate answer, for if the point were placed in the form of a 
 dilemma, I could see no way of escap.e. As thus : — The 
 sinner is repentant or he is not : If he is repentant, the 
 absolution is useless and unnecessary, as God has already 
 forgiven him : If he is not repentant, the absolution is 
 void, as already admitted ; and therefore, under these cir- 
 cumstances, I could not see any advantage in the judicial 
 power over the declaratory power. 
 
62 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 He perfectly understood me, as I thought, hut instead 
 of endeavouring to solve the difficulty of the dilemma, he 
 laughed at the idea of a declaratory power. He said that 
 a power to declare and pronounce the forgiveness of sins, 
 was not the power promised to the Church, — that power 
 was a power or privilege, not peculiar to the Priesthood, 
 but common to the Laity ; — that the power promised by 
 our Lord to his Church, was a power peculiar to the office 
 of the Priesthood ; and that therefore it could not be the 
 power of declaring and pronouncing the forgiveness of sins, 
 inasmuch as all men, not only Priests, but Laymen, not 
 only men but women, can pronounce and declare that for- 
 giveness. And therefore, he argued, the priestly power 
 of absolving, must be not only declaratory but judicial. 
 
 I said in reply to this, that however satisfactory his 
 statement might appear to the Italian mind, I apprehended 
 it would prove otherwise to the mind of England, — that it 
 ' was there felt that a layman could declare God's forgive- 
 ness of sin, as well and as accurately as a Clergyman, but 
 not so authoritatively. I said. If the sovereign of England 
 sends a message of peace or war, or aught else, to the 
 sovereign of France, it is sent through a special messenger, 
 a Herald or i\.mbassador, or other authorised person. Such 
 person comes with authority. His message is declared 
 with authority. He is not the judge to decide judicially, 
 whether there shall be peace or war, but he is to " declare 
 and pronounce " with authority the message of the sove- 
 reign. But any other man, even any woman, may deliver 
 that message as well, as clearly and as accurately, but not 
 as authoritatively. All such speak without authority. The 
 appointed or authorized person alone speaks with authority. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 63 
 
 In the same way God sends forth his message, through 
 " the ministers and stewards of the Church." They are 
 the authorized Heralds or Ambassadors of Heaven. They 
 go forth with authority. And though other persons may 
 deUver the message of forgiveness of sins, as clearly and as 
 well, yet they do so without the authority of the commis- 
 sioned persons. Again, I continued to argue, if a sove- 
 reign in the exercise of his prerogative pardons a criminal, 
 any person may tell that criminal of his coming pardon, 
 may " declare and pronounce " his pardon ; but the crimi- 
 nal will not be satisfied or comforted with the words of 
 these unauthorized persons, and he waits for the Sheriff or 
 lawful officer, he waits for the authorized person who alone 
 can come with authority, to " declare and pronounce " the 
 sovereign's pardon. And thus we arrived at two points — • 
 first, the Official does not himself sit as judge, to act judi- 
 cially and confer the pardon, but only to " declare and 
 pronounce" the forgiveness of the sovereign ; and secondly, 
 he does it with authority, as the only authorized person ; 
 and therefore he does it far more acceptably and satisfac- 
 torily, than can be done by any unauthorized person. This 
 I stated was the true position of the ministers of the 
 Church. 
 
 He seemed at a loss for a reply to this, acknowledging 
 there certainly was a great advantage in the declaration 
 being made by an authorized minister or official, that there 
 was some differenoe^between the authorized minister on one 
 hand, and the unauthorized layman on the other, pro- 
 nouncing and declaring God's forgiveness of sins. But still 
 he thought it an inconsistency in the Church of England, 
 retaining the form in her liturgy, and not exercising the 
 
64 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 power in her practice ; and he felt this the more strongly 
 as he could understand the Lutherans, the Reformed, the 
 Dissenters, who rejected the whole doctrine ; — they rejected 
 all pretensions to this power, and therefore were consistent 
 in not exercising it ; hut the Anglican Churches alone had 
 retained the hierarchy, the liturgy and other elements of 
 the Church, admitting the existence of this power of abso- 
 lution, but wholly neglecting to exercise it. He added, 
 that Christ gave to the Appstle Peter the power to bind 
 and loose, to absolve and retain sins, — that that power was 
 inherent in the priesthood of the Catholic Church, and 
 that it ought to be exercised for the punishment of the 
 sinner, and for the comfort of the penitent. 
 
 I said, that I feared he had misunderstood the nature of 
 the power of which he spake ; and I endeavoured to explain 
 my views of it. I commenced by stating, that the words 
 binding and loosing,- absolving and retaining, were words in 
 use among the Jews in reference to leprosy and to lepers. 
 
 When a man was afflicted with leprosy, the priest was 
 required under the law to declare him unclean, and there- 
 fore to shut him up or bind or retain him, thus excluding 
 him from the congregation, lest he might infect others 
 with his loathsome disease ; and when the man was healed, 
 the priest pronounced him clean, and then loosed or ab- 
 solved him, and permitted him again to mingle with the 
 people. Now our Lord in using this language, referred 
 to that which was familiar to the people. It is this that 
 explains our Lord's words. On referring to the law of 
 leprosy, as set forth in Leviticus.xiii., the words employed 
 in the Septuagint are of vast importance on this particular. 
 When the man was brought to the priest and seen to be 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 65 
 
 leprous, the priest was to declare or pronounce him unclean. 
 The word is fteavet, that is, the priest shall defile him, — 
 shall unclean him : whereas the man was already defiled, 
 or unclean ; and the priest was not to give the leprosy to 
 the man, hut only to declare and pronounce that he was 
 defiled or unclean hy the disease. The priest is thus said 
 to do that which he only declares, or pronounces is already 
 done by God. Again, when the inan is recovered, and the 
 priest sees him cured by the hand of God, then he was to 
 , declare and pronounce him clean. The word is KaSaftei, 
 that is, the priest shall clean him ; whereas the man was 
 already clean of his leprosy ; and the priest was not to 
 take away the disease, but only to declare and pronounce 
 that the man was clean. The priest is thus said to do that 
 which he only declared and pronounced to be already done 
 by God. It is evident that the priest neither gave the 
 disease, nor cured the disease, — neither imparted it, nor 
 took it away. It was the Almighty who both inflicted it, 
 and removed it ; and yet in the language of Leviticus, the 
 priest is said to do both the one and the other ; and there- 
 fore it may be argued that in the language of Scripture, the 
 priest is said himself to do that which he is only appointed 
 to declare and pronounce to be already done in the provi- 
 dence of God. This language pervades the whole law of 
 leprosy, being repeated again and again, see verses 3, 6, 
 11, 13, &c. And as the Septuagint was in general use in 
 our Lord's day, so his language, adopted from the Jewish 
 habit or mode of speech, was clearly understood ; and when 
 he desired his Apostles to bind and loose the sinner, to 
 forgive and retain the sin, he meant no more than that they, 
 like the priest in the matter of leprosy, were to declare 
 
66 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 and pronounce the forgiveness of sins, using phrases per- 
 fectly intelligible to Jews, implying that God had already 
 forgiven them. I added that as the Church of England 
 only gave this power to her ministers, and intended no more 
 than this in her Liturgy, her ministers dared not proceed 
 farther. They exercised ali the power they received or 
 possessed, and therefore were not liable to the charge of 
 inconsistency, as possessing a power, which they did not 
 exercise. 
 
 He made no attempt to weaken this explanation of the 
 peculiar phraseology of the Jewish law, as adopted by our 
 Lord ; but dwelt on the comfort and advantage of allow- 
 ing a judicial power to the priesthood ; and then leaving 
 this subject altogether, he entered upon a narration of the 
 circumstances connected with the conversion of a Lutheran 
 minister of Germany, who had forsaken all, and coming to 
 Rome, was graciously received by the Pope, and was led to 
 embrace the faith and practice of the Church of Rome. 
 He then detailed the circumstances connected with the 
 conversion of a Protestant clergyman in America, who 
 had come to Rome with his wife and children, and was 
 received into the Church. He was now studying and pre- 
 paring for admission into the order of the Jesuits, and also 
 for admission to the priesthood. He had already been ad- 
 mitted into the inferior orders. His wife, by the kindness 
 of his Holiness the Pope, was admitted into a nunnery ; 
 and being musical, assists in giving musical instruction to 
 the pupils who attend at the nunnery. She has not how- 
 ever as yet taken the veil, or made those vows by which she 
 is to be for ever removed from her husband, and he may 
 be enabled to enter into the priesthood. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 67 
 
 My reverend friend dwelt at considerable length, and 
 with lively interest, on the conversion of these parties. 
 He seemed to think his narrative might have some effect, 
 in inducing me to follow the example. But although I 
 watched narrowly its detail, yet I could observe nothing in 
 the way of argument or motive, that requires repetition 
 here. I did not interrupt his narration, but he stated at 
 the conclusion, his regret that he could not meet me again 
 for some weeks, as he was about to enter upon what they 
 call the " Retreat," that is, the- appointed retirement in 
 the more solitary life of a recluse. In this retirement, 
 according to the rule of the Jesuits, he was to be engaged 
 for some weeks, in reviewing the past, and in meditation 
 upon God, and in reflections on the state Of his own soul. 
 In this solitude he was to be occupied in examining, for 
 what object God had sent him into this world ; — how far he 
 had heretofore been employed in carrying out that object ; 
 — what he had really been doing in time past for the glory 
 of His God ; and what he would now prepare and resolve 
 to accomplish for the future. He dwelt on all this in a 
 manner that shewed he wished to impress my mind with a 
 sense of the holiness and devotion that characterized the 
 order of the Jesuits. And after courteously expressing 
 many regrets, that he was precluded by the rules of his 
 order, from conferring further with me till his " retreat " 
 was concluded, he proposed to introduce to me some other 
 members of the order, to converse with me in the meantime, 
 and give me any information I might require or they could 
 impart. I thanked him warmly for the opportunity he 
 thus afforded me of extending my acquaintance among the 
 Roman priesthood ; and with reciprocal expressions of kind- 
 ness and courtesy we parted. 
 
68 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 The next day he again visited me, and introduced two 
 others, who remained with me for some hours. He him- 
 self immediately retired. And thus an unexpected way 
 was opened to an extended acquaintance with men, whom 
 I could not otherwise have known. They introduced me 
 kindly and courteously to their college, and presented me 
 to all their professors of the Collegio Romano. Some of 
 my conversations with these gentlemen shall hereafter be 
 narrated. 
 
 NOTES ON CONFERRING ORDERS. 
 
 My argument here, as is not unusual in conversation, is not 
 accurately expressed; yet it relates to a subject of immense 
 importance in these times, and therefore requres to be clearly 
 stated. 
 
 It is held by very many among us, that there can be none of 
 the true privileges, blessings, and promises of the Church, un- 
 less there be true Orders. And it is held by such persons, that 
 there can be no true Orders, and therefore no true Church, un- 
 less the seed of Apostolic succession of Orders be transmitted 
 through thelaying-on of the hands of the Bishop and Presbyters 
 — the Episcopate and Priesthood combined. 
 
 It is supposed by such persons that Orders, in the fulness of 
 this perfection, exist in the Church of Rome more surely than 
 elsewhere. It is apparent that my argument with the Jesuits 
 at Home impeaches this idea, and asserts that if the seed of 
 apostolic succession be essential to the existence of a true 
 Church, and if this seed can be transmitted only through the 
 laying-on of hands of the Episcopate and Presbytery, then there 
 is no succession of true Orders in the Church of Rome. 
 
 As concerns the Church of England generally, it is a matter 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 69 
 
 of no importance. She has plainly declared, in Art. XXXIV, 
 " It is not necessary that traditions and ceremonies be in all 
 places utterly one and alike, for at all times they have been 
 divers, and may be changed according to the diversities of 
 countries, times, and men's manners, so that nothing be or- 
 dained against God's word." According therefore to the judg- 
 ment of the Church of England, there is no absolute necessity 
 for a universal conformity in such matters, and whether in 
 Rome or in England, each Church has a right to arrange its 
 process of ordination. 
 
 But when it is asserted that the Church of Rome alone has 
 true Orders, it may be well to consider whether she has any 
 real Orders at all. My position is, that if indeed the reality of 
 Priest's Orders depend on the transmission of the seed of apos- 
 tolic succession, through the laying-on of the hands of the 
 Bishop and Presbyters, then there are no true Priest's Orders 
 in the Church of Rome. 
 
 I argue as follows : 
 
 In the Roman Pontifical or Ordinal there is the following 
 rubric in the form for Ordination to the office of Deacon, " Hie 
 solus Pontifex, manum dexteram extendens, ponit super caput 
 cuilibet ordinando, et nullus alius, quia non ad Sacerdo- 
 TiuM, sed ad JVIinisteeium consecrantur, dicens singulis, 'Ac- 
 cipe Spiritum Sanctum.' " &c. 
 
 This rubric directs that the Bishop alone, " solus Pontifex,'' 
 without the Presbyters, " et nullus alius," shall lay on hands. 
 And the reason assigned is, that the Ordination is not to the 
 Priesthood, but only to the Ministry of the Oeaconate. From 
 this I infer, not only that the laying-on of the hands of the Bishop 
 and Presbytery is necessary to the conferring of the Priesthood, 
 but also that which is more to my purpose, that when the Bishop 
 alone, without the Presbytery, lays on hands, it is not an Ordi- 
 nation to the Priesthood, but only to the Ministry. Thus far 
 our way is clear. 
 
 We again turn to the Pontifical for the form of ordaining to 
 the Priesthood, and there we certainly' do read of a laying-on 
 of hands of the Bishop and Presbyters. But on examination 
 it will be seen that it is with the view to designate, to point out 
 
70 MORNINGS AMONG , 
 
 and set apart, those who are afterwards to he ordained, and that 
 i? is not the act or medium of conferring the Priesthood — that 
 it is the form of designation of the persons, and not the form of 
 Ordination of Priests. It is as follows : 
 
 " Oi'dinandis coram Pontifice hinis et binis successive genu- 
 flectentibus, Pontifex stans ante faldislorium suum cum mitra, et 
 nulla oratione, nuUoque cantu prsemissis, imponit simul utram- 
 que manum super caput cujuslibet ordinandi successive nihil 
 mcENS, Idemque faciunt post eum omnes sacerdotes, qui ad- 
 sunt — quo facto, tarn Pontifex, quam sacerdotes, tenent manus 
 dexteras extensas super illos, et Pontifex stans cum mitra dicit. 
 — ' Oremus, patres charissimi, Deuin Patrem Omnipotentem, 
 ut super hos famulos suos, quos ad Preshyterii inunus elegit, 
 coelestia dona multiplicet et quod ejus dignatione suscipiunt 
 ipsius consequantur auxilio, per Christum Dominum nostrum,' 
 Amen." 
 
 In all this it is apparent that the laying-on of hands, in this 
 opening of the service, is not for the purpose of conferring the 
 Priesthood itself, but only for the purpose of designating and 
 setting apart those who are chosen and deemed worthy of being 
 afterwards admitted into that Priesthood. And though the 
 Bishop proposes to the brethren to pray for the candidates, yet 
 there is nothing that pretends to, or looks like the conferring 
 the power of orders, of absolution, of preaching the word, or of 
 offering sacrifice. All is designed simply for designation, and 
 not for ordination — for designating those who are to be after- 
 wards ordained to the Priesthood. 
 
 In i-eference to this, Burnet on Art. XXV, says, " All the 
 ancient rituals, and all those that treat of them for the first seven 
 centuries, speak of nothing as essential to Orders, but prayer 
 and imposition of hands — but in the tenth and eleventh century 
 a new form was brought in, of delivering thevessehin ordaining 
 Priests, and words were joined with that, giving them power to 
 offer sacrifice to God and to celebrate masses, and then orders 
 were believed to be given by this rite. The delivering of the 
 vessels looked like matter, and these words were thought the 
 form of the Sacraments. And the prayer that was formerly used 
 with the imposition of hands was indeed still used, but only as 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 71 
 
 a part of the office. No hands were laid on when it was used. 
 And though the form of laying-on of hands was still continued, 
 the Bishop with other Priests, laying their hands on those they 
 ordained, yet it is now a durhb ceremony, not a word of prayer 
 being said while they lay on their hands." What is s^id is only 
 a proposal to the brethren to pray for the candidates. 
 
 And besides this, the whole office is drawn up on the suppo- 
 sition that the Order of Priesthood is not conferred by this 
 laying-on of hands. The candidates are still styled Ordinandi, 
 as being still to be ordained, and are never termed Ordinati till 
 the delivery of the vessels. This is without any doubt the act 
 of conferring the Priesthood according to the Ordinal in the 
 Roman Pontifical. The Bishop binds, anoints, and blesses 
 the hands of each candidate, and then places the chalice with 
 wine and water, and afterwards the paten with a host in the 
 hands of each : " Pontifice singulis dicente, — accipe potestatera 
 ofFerre sacrificium Deo, missasque celebrare tam pro vivis, 
 quam pro defunctis, in nomine Domini." Here is what they 
 call the form and the matter of the Sacrament of Orders ; and 
 when once this is accomplished, the candidate ceases to be a 
 candidate, and becomes a Priest. Accordingly the terms of 
 the Ordinal now became changed. The candidate in every 
 preceding rubric is styled Ordinandus. In every subsequent 
 rubric he is termed Ordinatus, and Sacerdos. 
 
 The Ordinal then requires the Bishop to celebrate a Mass ; 
 and in this not only are the new Priests expressly described as 
 Ordinati Sacerdotes, but they are required to take part in the 
 consecration, so as to effect the transubstantiation, which is 
 only permitted to those who are fully ordained Priests, And 
 thus it appears that the conferring the Order of Priesthood is 
 not by the laying-on of hands of the Bishop and Presbyters, 
 but by thetieremony of the delivery of the vessels, and the au- 
 thority to sacrifice. 
 
 But is there not a second laying-on of hands, over and beside 
 that for designation at the commencement? After the Mass 
 had been offered we read : " Pontifex cum mitra sedens super 
 faldistorium ante medium altaris, imponit ambas manus super 
 capita singulorum coram eo genuflectentium, dicens cuilibet — 
 
72 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Accipe Spiritum Sanctum, quorum remisseris peccata remit- 
 tanter eis, et quorum retinueris, retenta sunt." 
 
 Two remarks dispose of this. 
 
 First. — It has no part in the conferring' the Priesthood, as is 
 apparent from the fact that the candidates are previously called 
 Ordinati and Sacerdotes, and take part in the celebration of the 
 Mass, which can only be permitted to those who have already 
 received the Priesthood : they were ordained Priests before. 
 
 Second. — It is apparent that this laying-on of hands of the 
 Bishop alone, and as already proved by the rubric at the com- 
 mencement of this note, when hands are laid on by the Bishop 
 alone, without the hands of the Presbytery, is not an Ordina- 
 tion to the Priesthood, but only an admission to the Ministry. 
 
 Thus it seems clear that the first laying-on of hands is not for 
 conferring the Order of Priesthood, but only for designation, 
 and that the second is only for admission to the Ministry, — 
 that is, for admission to the power of absolution, when there is 
 jurisdiction given, as they phrase it. The Order of Priesthood 
 is conferred in the Church of Rome, not by the laying-on of 
 hands, but by the delivery of the vessels and the power to offer 
 sacrifice. It is the act of the Bishop. The Presbytery have no 
 part in it ; and therefore if the seed or apostolic Succession of 
 Priesthood can only pass thi-ough the hands of the Bishop and 
 Presbyters, then they possess it not in the Church of Rome. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 73 
 
 CHAPTER III. 
 
 THE CROSSNESS OP SOME SDPEBSTITIONS— WHETHER SANCTIFIED BV 
 THE CHURCH OF ROME— CONTRAST BETWEEN THE RELIGION OP THE 
 ENGLISH AND THE ITALIANS — THE VIRTUE OF MIRACULOUS PICTURES 
 — THE REALITY OF THEIR MIRACLES ASSERTED AND EXPLAINED — A 
 CONVERT IN A NUNNERY — PARALLEL BETWEEN EVE AND MARY— 
 THE RELIGION OF CHRIST BECOMING THE RELIGION OF MARY^ — THE 
 NATURE OF THIS PROCESS EXPLAINED — MARY MORE MERCIFUL THAN 
 CHRIST. 
 
 Very shortly after this interview, one of my friends, who 
 had undertaken to resolve my doubts and remove my ob- 
 jections to the Church of Rome, visited rae again ; and 
 after some preliminary conversation, he invited me to state 
 my feelings. 
 
 I commenced by stating that I was very intimate with 
 many of the popular objections to the Church of Rome ; 
 that those objections had considerable influence upon many 
 holy and good men ; that although some persons regarded 
 them as founded on what might perhaps be regarded as an 
 extravagant portraiture, — as a caricature of Romanism, — 
 yet they had considerable weight, and ought to be clearly 
 got rid of and removed from the field of controversy. I 
 stated that there appeared to be many things that seemed 
 
74 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 not only extravagant, but even impossible from their pal- 
 pable absurdity ; things that at times seemed so gross that 
 no reasonable credulity could surmount them ; and which 
 had the effect of raising an insurmountable objection against 
 any communion with the Church of Rome ; if indeed these 
 things were part and parcel of her system, or in any way 
 essential to her completeness ; and I added that if they 
 were not essential they ought to have been got rid of as 
 offensive to so many persons. 
 
 He replied, that he quite felt that there were many things 
 to which my remarks would very justly apply, but that 
 there were many others that were extravagant or absurd 
 only in appearance ; and that it not unfrequently occurred 
 that those things that at one time seemed liable to insur- 
 mountable objections, were afterwards adopted by converts 
 without the least scruple or difficulty. He therefore wished 
 me to specify some illustration. 
 
 I referred in return to the miraculous picture of the 
 Virgin Mary, in the Church of S. Maria Maggiore — to the 
 miraculous image of our Lord as a child in the church at 
 Aracoeli — to the miraculous image of the Virgin Mary in 
 the Church of the Augustines : and to several other pictures 
 and images, which were said to be miraculous, and which 
 were worshipped with a special and peculiar devotion — were 
 crowned and carried in procession precisely as the ancient 
 heathens of Rome used to carry the images of their Gods. 
 I stated that these things seemed very gross, and that 
 usually in England the advocates of the Church of Rome 
 got rid of all objections derived from them by disavowing 
 all these things as abuses, as exaggerations, as bad or su- 
 perstitious practices, which were not acknowledged or 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 75 
 
 practised by the well-informed, and were not approved by 
 the Church. I therefore would take the opportunity of 
 asking, him, living as he did at the fountain-head, and, 
 capable of informing me with some authority, whether 
 others of myself could be justified in setting the objection 
 aside in that way — namely, by attributing these things to 
 the ignorance of the foolish and superstitious. 
 
 He answered without the least hesitation, and in a manner 
 that took me by surprise. He answered that I had taken 
 a very wrong view of these particulars, in regarding them 
 as extravagant or absurd ; for, although they might appear 
 strange to me, as at one time they had appeared to himself, 
 so strange indeed as sometimes to be absolutely loathsome 
 to his feelings, and although he felt himself unable to justify 
 them in themselves, yet there was no doubt of their being 
 approved in practice by the Church ; that they were no 
 exaggeration or caricature, but real verities, which at one 
 time were a stumbling-block and offence to his own mind. 
 He added that there was much that might be said in their 
 favor, for that the Italians were a people very different from 
 the English ; that the English loved a religion of the heart, 
 and the Italians a religion of the senses ; the English a 
 religion of the feelings, and the Italians a religion for the 
 taste : the Enghsh an inward and spiritual religion, and the 
 Italian an outward and visible religion ; and that it was the 
 intention of the Church, as well as her duty, to arrange all 
 the rites, ceremonies, acts, services of religion, so as to be 
 suitable to an outward and visible rehgion, and calculate.] 
 for the mind of Italy ; and thus those particulars concern- 
 ing the crowning and processions of miraculous pictures and 
 miraculous images, however strange and absurd to the 
 E 2 
 
76 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 English, have been sanctioned by the Church as both natu- 
 ral and suitable to the Italians. 
 
 I expressed in strong terms my surprise at the position 
 he had taken, expecting that he would have denied or 
 softened those things, instead of asserting and defending 
 them. And I took the opportunity of alluding to the 
 coronation of the picture of Mary, in S. Maria Maggiore — 
 a coronation by the present Pope, (Gregory XVI.) who 
 crowned it amidst religious services with his own hands ; 
 I also alluded to the procession which conducted the same 
 picture through the streets, in order to suppress the cholera, 
 a procession in which the present Pope joined bare-footed, 
 and I asked whether we were to regard these acts, in which 
 all the chiefs of the church, as the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops 
 &c., took an active part, as the acts of the Church, sanc- 
 tioning the opinions that pictures could work miracles, and 
 that the procession of a picture of the Virgin Mary could 
 possibly stay the virulence of the cholera, and that any 
 particular picture was entitled to any special or peculiar 
 devotion, as a coronation, — ^in short, entitled to more vene- 
 ration than other pictures ? 
 
 To this he replied with frankness and decision, saying 
 that he had no doubt, and that there could be no doubt 
 whatever, as to the miraculous power of some Images and 
 Pictures ; and he explained the matter thus. It sometimes 
 occurred, he said, that some persons were affected — specially 
 affected or moved by some pictures or images more than 
 by others ; that in praying before these, their feelings were 
 more touched, their sensibilities more excited and their 
 devotional affections were drawn out in prayer ; that in 
 answer to such prayer, God not unfrequently gives responses 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 77 
 
 wliich were more marked than ordinary, and were to be 
 regarded as miraculous answers to prayers made before 
 miraculous pictures or images. 
 
 I could not avoid skewing my incredulity as to all this, 
 and I certainly was as surprised as I was incredulous. 
 
 He observed this, but only continued to express himself 
 more strongly, stating, that there was no doubt whatever 
 as to the reality of many miracles of this nature in answer 
 to such prayers : and that when the report of these miracles 
 spread abroad, when the public heard of them, when the 
 minds of the devout were excited by the fame of them, 
 then multitudes of persons naturally flocked to such pictures 
 and images to pray before them ; and their feelings being 
 excited, and their affections being the more drawn out by 
 the circumstance, there were yet again other miracles 
 wrought by God, and so these images and pictures became 
 miraculous. He added that the picture of the Virgin at 
 S. Maria Maggiore was such, — that the image of Mary at 
 the church of the Augustiniaus was such — and that the 
 picture of St. Ignatius praying to the Virgin in the Church 
 of Gesu was, with many others, also miraculous. 
 
 I must frankly confess that I was wholly unprepared for 
 this. In all my former experience of controversy in Ireland 
 and England, I had been told that all those were the mere 
 abuses of the superstitious, and not sanctioned by the 
 learned ; if indeed guch things were believed or practised 
 anywhere. I had often heard them denounced as mere 
 fabrications — pure inventions to injure the character of the 
 Church of Rome, and I felt much surprise in finding them 
 not only believed and practised, but defended. I felt that 
 it was opening out to me a new state of things, a new phase 
 
78 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 of mind, and a totally new system of faith or credulity, 
 which I had never anticipated. A mind must be in a pecu- 
 liar state to believe in the miraculous powers of a picture 
 or image. 
 
 His explanation led me to advance a step in our argu- 
 ment, and to say that his statements seemed to imply that 
 there was something peculiar to those images and pictures, 
 something inherent in them as compared with others, some- 
 thing not in the Saint or Angel represented, but in these 
 very pictures and images themselves. I endeavoured to 
 illustrate my meaning by suggesting two pictures of the 
 Virgin Mary placed side by side, and asking whether, one 
 being supposed to be miraculous, the people would pray 
 before that one rather than the other ; and whether he 
 believed the Virgin Mary would interfere with a miraculous 
 answer for those who prayed to her before that one, rather 
 than the other. I added, that if such was the case, it went 
 to prove a belief that there was something peculiar, some 
 virtue or power, something miraculous in such a picture, 
 in one rather than the other ; and that the distinction 
 proved that the people did look for something in pictures 
 and images, more than the persons whom they were de- 
 signed to represent. 
 
 He gave the fullest assent to this, saying, that they 
 looked first of all to the Saint represented in the picture or 
 image, and that then, in case there was a miraculous cha- 
 racter, they looked also to that power or virtue. He added 
 that his full belief was, that the Virgin Mary was more 
 partial to some representations of herself than to others ; 
 and that in order to induce the devout to pray before these 
 her favorite ones, she heard and answered the prayers so 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 79 
 
 offered, while she neglected those that were offered else- 
 where — answering the prayers offered before one picture 
 which she liked, and refusing those offered before a picture 
 which she did not like. 
 
 This was a degree of credulity, not to say superstition, 
 for which I was wholly unprepared : and I felt that there 
 must be something strange in the atmosphere of Italy, 
 or in the training of the mind of Italy, that could lead an 
 intelligent, a travelled, and educated man to such a state 
 of credulity. I took occasion to remark, — which I did 
 with all possible courtesy, to avoid giving offence, — that 
 these things created an insurmountable barrier between 
 England and Rome. I frankly stated that my judgment 
 rejected, while my feelings recoiled and revolted from them 
 — that so long as they might be regarded as mere abuses, 
 or mere exaggerations of enthusiastic votaries, or as the 
 pious frauds of Monks and Friars, they might be borne 
 with as things to be flung away by the wise and good ; but 
 if regarded as true, — these pictures as miraculous pictures, 
 these miracles as true miracles, such worship of the Virgin 
 a right worship, they then presented a difficulty which 
 could not be overcome. I felt it strange that all these 
 things, so denied in England by the advocates of Romanism , 
 should be so frankly avowed in Rome by the most intelli- 
 gent of her priesthood. 
 
 In reply to all this, which he received in a most amiable 
 spirit, he said that he could quite enter into my feelings — 
 that his experience was not small, and that he knew of 
 instances, where things that were at first viewed with loath- 
 ing were afterwards received with faciUty. He mentioned 
 the case of a lady, who had been a Protestant, but who had 
 
80 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 entered the Church of Rome and a Convent together. On 
 going for the first time to confession, the penance imposed 
 for some little sin was — to say the Litany of the blessed Virgin 
 Mary ! She declined, stating how repulsive that Litany 
 was to her opinions and feelings, so that she could not 
 bring herself to say it, and begged that some other penance, 
 which she could perform, might be imposed in its stead. 
 Her request was complied with, and she was satisfied. 
 And now her opinions and feelings have gradually and so 
 completely changed, that she is able to repeat this Litany 
 without the least repugnance. He continued to say, that 
 if I changed my religion, I should experience a similar 
 change in myself, and that what now seemed revolting 
 would become in time very easily received. 
 
 I felt that this was an unhappy case, as it seemed to 
 argue that the lady had only stifled her feelings and con- 
 cealed her opinions, and perhaps had become hardened by 
 use. And having already heard something of her hard 
 lot, her straggles with want, her admission into a nunnery 
 to enable her to live ; it looked as if her sad circumstances 
 had led to her steeling her heart, and becoming careless as 
 to any form of worship. My wife afterwards met her in 
 her convent, and had some conversation with her. She 
 invited my wife to attend the service in the chapel of the 
 nunnery. My wife stated that she had heard it was re- 
 quired, that all who entered the chapel should kneel and 
 worship the Host, and that no one was admitted unless on 
 that understanding. She replied that such was the case, 
 but that my wife should remember that God might be in 
 the Host, and that she might therefore safely worship him 
 there. My wife said that she knew very well, that God 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 81 
 
 was not ill the' Host more than in anything else ; and that 
 believing this, she could not worship it without committing 
 idolatry. The lady rejoined, that surely she could kn^el 
 and say her own prayers secretly, without saying them to 
 the Host. My wife replied that would be insincerity and 
 hypocrisy ; appearing in body to join in the worship, while 
 in spirit being far otherwise. The lady promptly suggested 
 that even this was better than giving offence to the con- 
 gregation, by refusing to worship the Host. Upon which 
 my wife replied, it was better still to absent herself, and so 
 neither offend God on one hand or the congregation on the 
 other. This conversation left a very unfavourable im- 
 pression on my wife, as to the simplicity and sincerity of 
 the religious profession of this converted lady. But to 
 return : — 
 
 My clerical friend, after a pause which I was unwilling 
 to break, lest I should express myself as strongly as I felt, 
 resumed the conversation, and said, that the worship of 
 the Virgin Mary was a growing worship in Bx)me — that it 
 was increasing in depth and intenseness of devotion ; and 
 that there were now many of their divines, and he spoke 
 of himself as agreeing with them in sentiment, who were 
 teaching that as a woman brought in death, so a woman 
 was to bring in life ; — that as a woman brought in sin, so 
 a woman was to bring in holiness ; — that as Eve brought in 
 damnation, so Mary was to bring in salvation ; and that the 
 effect of this opinion was largely to increase the reverence 
 and worship given to the Virgin Mary. 
 
 I said that I had read something of the kind, and also 
 that I had seen a sort of parallel in some of the Fathers on 
 the subject, but that it did not go so far as the modern 
 E 5 
 
82 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 opinion. But in order not to misunderstand him, and to 
 prevent any mistake as to his views, I asked whether I was 
 to understand him as implying, that as we regard Eve as 
 the first sinner, so we are to regard Mary as the first Sa- 
 viour ; one as the author of sin, and the other as the author 
 of the remedy. 
 
 He rephed that such was precisely the view he wished 
 to express, and he added that it was taught by St. Alphonso 
 de Liguori, and was a growing opinion. He seemed to 
 think, from my seriousness of manner, that he had made 
 a;n impression on me very different from the reality, for I 
 was deeply grieved at his statement, in which there was 
 not the least allusion to Christ. Mary seemed to be sub- 
 stituted for Christ. 
 
 I felt that he had gone very far, but I also felt he had 
 not gone farther than my own impressions as to the reli- 
 gion of Italy, so far as I had seen it. I therefore took the 
 opportunity of saying, what otherwise I would have been 
 unwilling to express. I introduced it by some courteous 
 and apologetic expressions, to prevent his taking any 
 offence ; and assured him I felt happy in being able to 
 speak my mind to one so capable of understanding and 
 appreciating my feelings, and I prayed him not to be 
 offended at my freedom. I then stated, with all the seri- 
 ousness the subject demanded, and all the solemnity I 
 could command, that from all I had observed of the religion 
 of Italy, whether as exhibited in the churches, displayed 
 in processions, or expressed in private, whether as exhi- 
 bited in the forms of prayer, in the object of worship, in 
 the books of devotion, or in the conversation of the people, 
 that it appeared to me to be characterised by one great 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 83 
 
 feature, which forced itself unceasingly on my mind. It 
 seemed to me that all tended to the honour of Mary, rather 
 than to the honour of Christ ; and that this appeared to 
 me to be carried to such an extreme, that I felt in my calm 
 and sober judgment, that the religion of Italy ought to be 
 called the religion of Mary, rather than the religion of 
 Christ. I again apologised for so strong an opinion, but 
 added that, feeling strongly on the point, I wished to express 
 myself with a frankness and sincerity, which I hoped he 
 would excuse. 
 
 I watched anxiously to see the impression of my words ; 
 I feared that, as they would have elicited a burst of indig- 
 nation, real or affected, among the Romanists of England 
 or of Ireland, so they might possibly cause some offence 
 even in Italy ; but it was far otherwise. He seemed quite 
 unmoved, as if he received my' words as a matter of course 
 — as expressing something very natural and of no unfre- 
 quent occurrence. His reply was made with perfect ease 
 and entire frankness. 
 
 He stated, that my impression was very natural, for that 
 such was really the appearance of things ; that coming 
 from Germany, where Christ on the cross was the ordinary 
 object of veneration, into Italy, where the Virgin Mary was 
 the universal object of reverence, it was no more than natu- 
 ral that such an impression should have been created : that 
 such an impression was very much the reality of the case ; 
 and that to his own knowledge, the religion of Italy was 
 latterly becoming less and less the religion of Christ ; and 
 that " the devotion of the most Holy Virgin," as he called 
 it, was certainly on the increase. 
 
 I was perfectly startled, not indeed at the statement 
 
84 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 itself, for it was too palpably true to escape the observation 
 of any one; but that a man, a minister of Christianity, 
 should describe such a state of things with the manifest 
 approval he exhibited. We were shocked. 
 
 He perceived this, and then proceeded to justify himself 
 with an ingenuity and address that laid open the system, 
 and exhibited the worship of Mary in a new light, at least 
 in a light in which I had never seen it before. He stated, 
 that there was a great difference in the bent or habit of 
 mind, between English Protestants on one hand, and Italian 
 Romanists on the other ; that Protestants habitually let 
 their minds dwell on Christ's teaching, on Christ's working 
 miracles, and especially on Christ's suifering, bleeding, 
 dying on the cross; so that in a Protestant mind, the 
 great object was Christ in the maturity of his manhood ; 
 but that Romanists habitually dwelt on the childhood of 
 Christ ; not on the great events that were wrought in 
 maturity and manhood, but on those interesting scenes 
 which were connected with his childhood. He then went 
 on to say that this habit of mind led to the great differ- 
 ence, that as Protestants always dwelt on the suflfering and 
 dying Christ, so Christ in a Protestant mind was always 
 connected with the cross ; and that as Romanists constantly 
 meditated rather on the childhood of Christ, so Christ in 
 a Romanist's mind was usually associated with his mother, 
 the Virgin Mary. He then continued to say that'-the con- 
 stant dwelling of the mind in contemplation on the child, 
 naturally led to more thought, more contemplation, more 
 affection, and finally more devotion for the mother ; that 
 when one thinks of all the little scenes of His childhood, 
 dwells on the little incidents of interest between the child 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 85 
 
 Jesus and the mother Mary, recollects that she had him 
 enshrined in her womb, that she used to lead him by the 
 hand, that she had listened to all his innocent prattle, that 
 she had observed the opening of his mind ; and that during 
 all those days of his happy childhood she, and she alone 
 of all the world, knew that that little child whom she bore 
 in her womb and nursed at her breasts and fondled in 
 her arms, was her God— that when a man thinks, and 
 habitually thinks of all this, the natural result is that his 
 affections will be more drawn out, and his feelings of devo- 
 tion more elevated towards Mary. And he concluded by 
 stating that this habit of mind was becoming more general, 
 and that it was to it that he would attribute the great 
 increase, that late years had witnessed in the devotion to 
 the Virgin Mary. 
 
 My wife and myself were much struck with all this. It 
 was, I must freely acknowledge, perfectly new to me, and 
 greatly interested us. It was a new view of the system, — 
 of the means by which the system is spread, and quite a 
 new phase of mind ; while the pleasing manner and evident 
 sincerity and enthusiasni of the man, gave an additional 
 charm to his words. We did not conceal the interest we 
 felt in his statement, and he seemed pleased at his success, 
 and continued : 
 
 He said, that all this devotion to Mary, however repug- 
 nant to the feelings and judgments of Protestants, was 
 capable of being justified, or at least was capable of being 
 accounted for on a principle very well known and recog- 
 nised among Protestants themselves. He said it was to be 
 ascribed to the feeling universal among Romanists, that 
 the Virgin Mary was more merciful, more gentle, and more 
 
86 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 ready to hear, than Christ ; and he added, that among 
 Protestants it was often thought that the Son, Jesus 
 Christ, was more merciful, gentle, and ready to hear than 
 God the Father, from their feeling that in the manhood of 
 Jesus Christ,, there is that which creates a sympathy in 
 Him with them ; and that in the same way Romanists 
 feel that there is even more in the Virgin Mary common 
 with them, so as to create still greater sympathy on her 
 part. 
 
 On my wife remarking here upon the unsoundness of 
 the idea, which he attributed to Protestants, namely of 
 regarding the Son as more merciful and gentle and ready 
 to hear than the Father ; adding, that the Father shewed 
 his love in giving his Son, as much as the Son in giving 
 himself — on this he at once assented that the principle 
 was unsound and wrong, and involved a very false view of 
 the Godhead ; but that yet there were many among Pro- 
 testants who held it in their ignorance ; and that many of 
 them, influenced by it, do actually pray to the Son more 
 than to the Father. They feel that the Son is man as 
 well as God, and that manhood ensures a sympathy which 
 makes him more accessible ; and that the Romanists feel 
 that Mary is altogether of their own nature, and that this 
 ensures a more perfect sympathy, so as to make Mary more 
 accessible than Christ, and that this feeling leads them to 
 pray with more frequency, as well as with more confidence, 
 to Mary than to Christ. 
 
 It was impossible not to recognise the ingenuity of this, 
 and at the same time it was as impossible not to acknow- 
 ledge, that there was too much justice in what he stated, 
 as to the feeling of many Protestants. But it was sadden- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 87 
 
 ing indeed to the heart to witness the wiles and subtleties 
 with which the fallen heart is ensnared and the fallen 
 intellect entangled ; and still more saddening, even to fear- 
 fulness and trembling, to hear the Saviour practically 
 dethroned from his High Priesthood and Mediatorship, 
 and one of his creatures exalted to his place, as the object 
 of affection, devotion, and prayer, on the ground Of so 
 awful an error as that Mary is more merciful, more gentle, 
 and more ready to hear than Christ. I knew the danger 
 of speaking out, of speaking my opinions openly, and yet 
 I could not let such a sentiment pass without some notice ; 
 which, even if it had no effect on him, would at least clear 
 my own conscience. So I spoke of the love of Christ, a 
 love exhibited in leaving the heavens for us, — a love exhi- 
 bited in all the sweetness of his words, — a love exhibited 
 in all the benevolence of his acts, — and, above all, a love 
 exhibited in all the mysterious agony in the garden, the 
 infinite sufferings of the judgment-hall, and the awful 
 scenes of Calvary, even a love still exhibited in the hea- 
 vens, where he yet pleads for the sinner, as if heaven were 
 no heaven to him, if his people be not there ! And I 
 asked how it was possible, that there could be imagined a 
 Being more merciful, more gentle, or more ready to hear ? 
 " God commended his love towards us, in that while we 
 were yet sinners, Christ died for us ; " and " greater love 
 hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his 
 friend ; " and again. He pleads himself with us, " Can a 
 woman forget her sucking-child, that she should not have 
 compassion on the Son of her womb ? Yea, they may 
 forget, yet will I not forget thee." Here indeed is love 
 expressed and proved, and there is neither love expressed 
 
88 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 nor love proved by the Virgin Mary ; while it seems the 
 basest ingratitude^ the most heartless return to a Saviour 
 of such infinite love, " a love that passeth knowledge," to 
 harbour for .one moment the thought, that it could be sur- 
 passed, especially by one, who at the best is but a creature 
 still. 
 
 I do not think, that this produced any serious impres- 
 sion on my companion ; and certainly it had no effect on 
 his reasoning, farther than to say, that he thought it a 
 wrong principle for Protestants to regard Christ as more 
 merciful than the Father ; and so making that a ground 
 for praying more frequently to him ; but that it was the 
 very same principle, only applied to the Virgin Mary, that 
 led the Church of Rome to regard her as more merciful 
 than Christ, and therefore to pray more frequently to her. 
 
 I observed here, that this took away the ground on 
 which they prayed to Mary so much more frequently than 
 to Christ ; and that to say the least of the system, the 
 praying to her more frequently than to him, bore the com- 
 plexion of Idolatry — as lowering him and exalting her, 
 and giving the love, the devotion, the prayers to Mary, 
 which ought to be rendered to God alone. 
 
 He rejoined by saying, that there was a distinction 
 always observed in the minds of the people, between the 
 worship rendered to Christ, and the worship rendered to 
 Mary. 
 
 I replied, that although the more intelligent and en- 
 lightened of the Roman Church, might understand and be 
 able to maintain that distinction, while in the act of wor- 
 ship, yet it was evident that the mass of the population, 
 and of the children, were incapable either of understanding 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 89 
 
 it or of observing it. I added, that the distinction of their 
 theologians between Latria, DuUa, and Hyperdulia, had 
 never been clearly defined ; and that I had never seen a 
 member of the Church of Rome, whether ecclesiastical or 
 lay, who could clearly state the difference between them. 
 
 In answer to this he said, that however difficult it was 
 to explain — and he acknowledged it was very difficult — yet 
 it was universally known and understood ; — that the young- 
 est children and the most ignorant adults, all recognised 
 the distinction, and could never fall into any mistake re- 
 specting it ; but that feeling that Christ was the Almighty 
 God, infinitely above them, and that Mary was a creature 
 like themselves, and of the same human feelings with 
 themselves, they conceived she would have more sympa- 
 thy with them, and therefore they prayed more frequently 
 to her. 
 
 To this I rejoined, by again expressing my conviction, 
 that it was impossible that the mass of the poor and igno- 
 rant people could understand the distinctions which their 
 most learned Theologians were unable to explain — that 
 although they were told that latria belonged to God, hyper- 
 dulia to the Virgin, and dulia to the Saints, — that although 
 they were told of these three kinds of worship, yet they 
 could not distinguish between them ; and most certainly 
 could not act upon them — that frequently they prayed in 
 the same form, for the same objects, and in the very same 
 words, to God, and to Mary, and to the Saints, without 
 making the least difference between them. 
 
 I then referred to the well-known prayer, to the saying 
 of which, in the year 1817, an Indulgence of three hun- 
 dred days was attached. It was in the words : — 
 
90 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 " Jesus, Joseph, Mary, I give you my heart and soul ; 
 
 " Jesus, Joseph, Mary, assist me iu my last agony ; 
 
 " Jesus, Joseph, Mary, I breathe my soul to you in 
 peace." 
 
 Here, I said, was a prayer addressed to God, to the 
 Virgin, and to a Saint, — addressed to one and all alike, 
 addressing them for the very same objects, and making no 
 distinction whatever between them. Here was a case, in 
 which the three degrees of worship were all demanded. 
 There was God, for whom latria was required ; hyperduUa 
 for the Virgin ; and dulia for Joseph. And I added, that 
 as the people used the same words to each — employed the 
 same form of petition to each — asked for the same things 
 from each — offered and expressed the same devotion to 
 each ; it could hardly be asserted, that they were not wor- 
 shipping them all alike. 
 
 He evidently felt this a great difficulty. He acknow- 
 ledged that he knew the prayer, and that it was of frequent 
 use among the people, and that at first appearance it seemed 
 objectionable ; but he insisted that the people knew the 
 distinction so well, that no man, or woman, or child, could 
 possibly fall into the error of praying to God, and Mary," 
 and Joseph alike. It might appear to me, that their words 
 and form and manner of worship being the same, the wor- 
 ship itself was the same ; but that nothing was more cer- 
 tain, than that they observed a distinction in their own 
 minds, and did not really pray to them, or worship them 
 alike, even in that prayer, which was addressed to Jesus, 
 Joseph, and Mary simultaneously. 
 
 I felt that reasoning farther- on this precise pointr was 
 neither profitable nor judicious : and therefore only re- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 91 
 
 marked, that I was well able to judge of the form of prayer 
 itself ; and knew that it was addressed to all alike, but 
 that as to distinction in the minds of the people, neither 
 he nor I could be competent judges. Neither of us could 
 read the heart, and therefore neither of us ought to say 
 anything, as to what may or may not be in the secret mind 
 of others. Our province is to judge of the outward action, 
 and that outward action was one of prayer and devotion to 
 all the three alike. 
 
 He made no objection to this, but directed our conver- 
 sation into another channel. It was some time before I 
 could bring him back without any apparent effort to the 
 same point. He then resumed it, by alluding to something 
 that had passed between us ; and then remarked, as he 
 had done on that occasion, that the devotion to the Virgin 
 Mary was very popular, that latterly it was become increas- 
 ingly so ; and that he knew personally of many facts, that 
 proved it to be a growing devotion among all classes. 
 
 My wife remarked, that she had been in conversation 
 with a religious Italian lady, who was lamenting the vice 
 and wickedness that abounded in Rome ; and who con- 
 cluded by saying, that her only consolation and hope for 
 Rome was, that the devotion to the Most Holy Mary, san- 
 tissima Maria, was so much on the increase. 
 
 He stated that such was the fact, and proceeded to relate 
 some little incidents to illustrate it. He mentioned the 
 frequency with which he heard the poor and simple people 
 praying to the Virgin, — singing hymns to her pictures at 
 the corner of the streets early in the morning, — appealing 
 to her for protection in moments of danger; and he detailed 
 a scene which he had himself witnessed. It was the case 
 
92 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 of a very little child, that conceived itself in great danger, 
 and immediately cried aloud to the Virgin, ' O Mamma, 
 Mamma Mia, Mamma Mia, O Mamma ! ' He supposed 
 the little child so well taught io regard the Virgin Mary as 
 the heavenly Mother, and so truly pious and devoted, as 
 to have addressed these words to her ; and he was touched 
 to tears — the tear glistened in his eye as he told the inci- 
 dent, heing evidently touched at the idea of so much piety 
 in so young a child. 
 
 I remarked at the moment, that to me it seemed as if 
 the child was only crying for its own mother, at least it 
 was like the cry of some child in England, who had never 
 heard of the Virgin Mary. 
 
 He said that in the case he mentioned, there was no 
 doubt that it was the cry of a child appealing to its Hea- 
 venly Mother. He added that there was something among 
 the Italians, — something in the Italian mind, and Italian 
 feeling, that led them particularly to devotion to the Virgin, 
 — that while in Germany the prayers of the Roman Catho- 
 lics are directed to the crucifix, to the figure of our Lord 
 upon the cross, it is quite otherwise in Italy, where all the 
 devotion of the people, and all their prayers, are addressed 
 to the pictures and images of Mary ; that, however it was 
 to be accounted for, the fact was so, and that it was in- 
 creasing and likely to increase yet more. 
 
 I remarked, that his words seemed to imply that there 
 was a process of change gradually going on in the Church 
 of Rome, in reference to the Virgin ; and that thus the 
 religion of Rome was becoming more and more the religion 
 of Mary. I then added, that I had seen some remarkable 
 things in a work by St. Alphonso De Liguori. It was 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 93 
 
 entitled " The Glories of Mary," and among other things 
 descrihed the vision of St. Bernard, in which "he beheld two 
 ladders extending from earth to heaven, — two ways by 
 which the sinner could have access to heaven, At the top 
 of one ladder appeared Jesus Christ. At the top of the 
 other ladder appeared the Virgin Mary ; and that while 
 those, who endeavoured to enter into heaven by the way 
 of Christ's ladder, constantly fell back and utterly failed, 
 those, on the other hand, who tried to enter by the ladder 
 of Mary, all succeeded, because she put forth her hands to 
 assist and encourage them. I mentioned also, that I had 
 seen this as an altar-piece in a Church at Milan, where the 
 two ladders were represented, reaching from earth toheaven ; 
 Jesus Christ at the head of one, and Mary at the head of 
 the other ; and while none were succeeding by the ladder 
 of Christ, all were succeeding by the ladder of the Virgin ! 
 I added that this was degrading Christ, in order to exalt 
 the Virgin, and that it was representing her as a more 
 merciful and effectual Saviour, than the Saviour Himself ! 
 I felt that I could apply no other language to this, than 
 that I could not imagine a more hideous blasphemy than 
 the language of Liguori, or a more frightful sacrilege than 
 such a picture beside the altar of a Church. 
 
 He said mildly, that he could not approve of such things; 
 that though such things were often said and often done, 
 for himself he could not do otherwise than condemn them ; 
 that though he Could not go so far as to apply to them 
 such ter-ms as blasphemy and sacrilege, yet he could not 
 but strongly disapprove of them ; but still he believed they 
 were capable, when rightly interpreted, of being under- 
 stood in an orthodox and unobjectionable sense. 
 
94 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 I then alluded to other pictures of the Virgin Mary, and 
 I reprobated the practice of representing Mary, as the chief 
 or principal figure in the picture ; and Jesus Christ being 
 introduced as a subordinate figure — as a figure that was 
 merely accessory to her's, a sort of appendage to her, as if 
 he was introduced merely to shew, that the figure of a 
 female was intended as the figure of Mary — as if, there 
 being innumerable female figures in such pictures, — figures 
 of various saints, — it was necessary to introduce the child 
 Jesus to shew that this female figure was intended for 
 Mary. The figure of St. Catherine is recognised among 
 all others, by the introduction of the wheel. The figure of 
 St. Margaret is similarly distinguished, by the introduction 
 of a tower. In precisely the same spirit the figure of Mary 
 is recognised, by the introduction of the infant Jesus. But 
 as with St. Catherine and St. Margaret the wheel and the 
 tower are mere accessories, by which they may be recog- 
 nised, so in the pictures of Mary, the child Jesus is nothing 
 else than a mere accessory to identify her ! I expressed 
 myself strongly against this practice, as an awful dishonour 
 to Christ. It was making God' the creator a mere secondary 
 to a creature. 
 
 He again expressed himself, as disapproving of such 
 pictures, saying that although others approved of and liked 
 them, yet he did not think them altogether justifiable. 
 
 I then called his attention to a large number of pictures, 
 to be seen in almost every Church. They are designed to 
 represent the Virgin Mary in heaven, enthroned above the 
 clouds and encircled by angels and cherubs, and even there 
 she is represented with the infant .Jesus in her arms ! It 
 could not possibly be that either the artists who paint, or 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 95 
 
 the griests who suspend these pictures over the altar, sup- 
 pose that Jesus Christ is now an infant still, in the arms 
 of Mary in heaven — that He is still an infant in heaven ; and 
 therefore it is apparent that He is introduced, thus ab- 
 surdly and improperly, as a mere accessory to distinguish 
 the figure of Mary from the figure of any other saint ! I 
 added that there were few things in the Church of Rome 
 that so offended us, as dishonouring to Christ, as this 
 system of making Mary the principal person, and Christ 
 only the secondary person in their pictures. It seemed an 
 index of the state of Italian religion, in which Mary seemed 
 first, and Christ second in prominence, as if it was the 
 religion of Mary rather than the religion of Christ. I added 
 yet farther, that it was singular that in the Church of Gesu 
 e Maria in the Corso ; where the sermons are preached in 
 English for the conversion of the English, there are no less 
 than three large altar-pieces, — pictures larger than life, re- 
 presenting the Virgin Mary with the ipfant Jesus in heaven ! 
 
 He said that he quite agreed with me that such things 
 ought not to be — that the representing Mary as enthroned 
 in heaven, and our Lord as a child in her arms, was igno- 
 rant, absurd, and untrue — contrary to right teaching : but 
 that unhappily there was too much of it. He went on to 
 say, that the Church had never done it — never sanctioned 
 it, and although it certainly was done, yet as certainly it 
 was without the sanction or approval of the Church. 
 
 I said that the Church had tacitly sanctioned it. It had 
 ever been held that where any doctrine or practice had been 
 propagated, and the Church had not interfered with it or 
 condemned it, that she was then to be regarded as per- 
 mitting it. I said that in this way, the Church tacitly 
 
96 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 t 
 sanctioned the practice ; for as these things were not done 
 in a corner, but were done in a large portion of theChurches, 
 so they must be known to the authorities and permitted by 
 them. I alluded to a picture of the Virgin, in the chapel 
 under St. Petier's, with an inscription that it had miracu- 
 lously shed blood when struck with a stone ; and another 
 picture of the Virgin at Arezzo, which had miraculously 
 shed tears of grief, at hearing the profane language of some 
 drunkards ; and another picture of her that was shown at 
 Rome, which miraculously wept before the whole congre- 
 gation, at the invasion of the French. And more strange 
 than all, a picture of the Virgin and child at Lucca, of which' 
 it was affirmed, that when some one flung a stone at the 
 face of the child, she most wonderfully transferred the 
 child to the other arm, and thus saved it from injury — a 
 wonder indeed for a mere picture to perform ! I argued 
 that all these, and a thousand similar things, were known 
 to the authorities, and therefore the Church by per- 
 mitting them, did tacitly sanction them, and must be held 
 responsible. 
 
 He replied, by stating that many of these things were 
 undoubtedly untrue, but that many of them were undoubtr 
 edly true — that in either case the Church had nevergiven 
 her authority to any of them — that individual priests, and 
 Bishops, and even Popes believed and sanctioned them, but 
 the Church had never done so. He added, that although 
 they were exhibited in churches, approved by the priests 
 of those churches, and sanctioned by inscriptions on the 
 walls of the churches, yet they were not authorised by the 
 Church. The people might believe or might not believe 
 them, but the Church was not responsible. She left her 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 97 
 
 people at liberty, and the responsibility lay with the priests 
 and people themselves, and not with the Church. 
 
 I said in return, that I was to infer that a belief in such 
 miraculous pictures of the Virgin Mary, was not confined 
 to the ignorant, of the populace, but was received among 
 the learned and enlightened of the Priesthood. His words 
 seemed to imply as much. 
 
 He at once replied, that he could not answer for others, 
 but that for himself he did not believe the greater portion 
 of such narratives — that the Roman Breviary was full of 
 such tales of wonders and miracles, as of men whose heads 
 were cut off, and yet who afterwards took up their own 
 heads, and carried them away in their hands ! He added, 
 laughing, that he could not believe such things, of which 
 some were unreasonable and foolish, and even known and 
 proved to be false and impossible. 
 
 In the Church of S. Stefano Rotundo, among other re- 
 presentations of martyrdom, S. Dionysius is represented as 
 walking in full episcopal robes at the head of a procession, 
 holding his head streaming vrith blood in his hands ! It is 
 said that, after being decapitated, he quietly took up his 
 own head in his hands, and walked away with it to the no 
 small astonishment of all. 
 
 This was as much as I could expect. I pressed him no 
 more on the subject, and soon after our interview ended. 
 
98 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 CHAPTER IV. 
 
 A VISIT FROM A CONVEBT TO ROMANISM — ARGUMENT DRAWN PROM 
 HIS EXPERIENCE OF HAPPINESS — MOTIVE TO REST ENTIRELY ON THE 
 INFALLIBILITY OF THE CHURCH — THE INFALLIBLE TRIBUNAL AMONG 
 PROTESTANTS CONTRASTED WITH THAT AMONG ROMANISTS — ARGU- 
 MENTS FOR INFALLIBILITY — THE SCRIPTURES — TRADITION — THE 
 FATHERS. 
 
 I EXPECTED the promised visit of a reverend gentleman 
 who had originally been a Protestant, and had entered the 
 Church of Rome. 
 
 Our conversation commenced, after his arrival, by my 
 observing to him, that I understood he had once been a 
 Protestant, and that he had now become a Roman Catholic. 
 I expressed myself as much gratified in making his acquaint- 
 tance, and being able thus to state my opinions, feelings, 
 and diificulties, to one who could understand and appreciate 
 them. I had felt that much and many of the difficulties 
 which pressed upon the mind of an English Protestant, were 
 altogether unintelligible to a mind, so peculiarly constituted 
 and habituated as that of an Italian Romanist, — that it 
 might therefore be feared that my feelings could scarcely be 
 adequately appreciated by our mutual friend the Padre M — , 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME.' 99 
 
 SO as to enlist his sympathies : but now that I had to con- 
 verse with one who had himself been a Protestant, I felt 
 assured that he would understand and sympathize with me. 
 He replied by stating, that he had always until his 
 arrival at Rome been a Protestant, — that, after a long and 
 painful struggle, he was convinced of the course which it 
 became him to pursue, — that he therefore came to Rome, 
 and after some communication with the Jesuits there, for- 
 mally renounced his former opinions, and was received as a 
 member of the Church of Rome. He entered into some 
 details of his former history, in fact the story of his life, 
 and concluded by saying that he had never known peace or 
 happiness, until he had taken the final step ; and then, 
 and from that moment, he had experienced a tranquillity 
 of mind and a satisfaction of feeling, a joy and delight 
 which he had never known before. Instead of being dis- 
 turbed in mind he felt 'calm, — instead of being restless he 
 had peace, — ^instead of unhappiness he had full satisfac- 
 tion — instead of uncertainty, he had the most perfect 
 certainty ; and thus from the moment of his seeking rest 
 in the bosom of His Holy Mother the Church of Rome, 
 like the wandering child in the bosom of its loving mother, 
 he experienced in her embrace and communion the most 
 perfect happiness. He then added, that he believed this 
 happiness was experienced by all who like him embraced 
 the Church of Rome, — that he knew it to be the experi- 
 ence of others as well as his own, — that he could not 
 regard it otherwise, than as the special gift and blessing of 
 God, — the reward of heaven to those who entered the true 
 Church ; and that if I took the 'Same step, I should as- 
 suredly be partaker of the same reward. 
 F 2 
 
TOO * MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 I answered all this by stating that I could well under-, 
 stand it, as I had seen very much of the same nature in 
 the ease of persons, who had acted in a manner the very 
 opposite to that which he had adopted. I had known 
 many persons, who had been brought up from infancy, in 
 all the principles and practices of the Church of Rome, — 
 who, by the reading of the Holy Scriptures, or by hearing 
 the preaching of the gospel, had been led to entertain 
 doubts as to the verity of their former faith, and to receive 
 and adopt the simple and scriptural principles of Protes- 
 tantism ; and so to go on to the final step of embracing 
 the communion of Protestants ; and such persons had often 
 told me of the peace of mind and happiness of heart, — 
 the gush of joy and delight that they experienced in for- 
 saking by that act, what they regarded as the unscriptural 
 and unstable errors of one Church, for the scriptural and 
 stable truth of the other ; speaking with rapturous extacy 
 of peace and joy which they had never known before, and 
 of the sweetness of which they had previously had no 
 conception. I added, that I supposed this feeling among 
 those who embraced the Roman faith, and among those 
 who embraced the Protestant faith — this feeling common 
 to both alike, may arise from the casting aside the doubts 
 and difficulties, that had previously occupied and absorbed 
 the mind ; but that I could not regard it as a reward or 
 recompense for the final step, — that I could not think that 
 God would give this reward to both sides, to the Romanist 
 for embracing Protestantism, and to the Protestant for 
 embracing Romanism. 
 
 He said in return, that he had sometimes heard of such 
 things, and that he was not quite sure whether he ought to 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 101 
 
 doubt or acknowledge them. But that for himself and 
 his own experience, he could entertain no doubt whatever. 
 For years the conflict had raged within him : principle 
 struggled with principle, one series of apparent truths held 
 conflict with another series of truths equally apparent, till 
 he was tossed to and fro, and reeled like a ship upon the 
 waves, now inclining to Protestantism, and then leaning to 
 Romanism; till he felt all faith giving way, and to save 
 himself from infidelity he resolved to embrace the Church 
 of Borne ; — that if he had not done so he must certainly 
 have ended in infidelity, — that he had been rushing head- 
 long into that awful abyss, till he was saved by entering 
 the Church of Rome, and from that moment all was peace 
 and joy ; every doubt vanished and every difficulty fled 
 away, and all was now tranquillity and happiness. He then 
 assured me that if I would only take the same course, — if 
 I would resolve to fling away my doubts and difficulties, 
 — if instead of making objections and answering arguments, 
 and requiring reasons and proofs, — if instead of all this I 
 would but fling them to'the winds, and boldly and unhesi- 
 tatingly enter the Church of Rome, I should escape all 
 the harassing anxieties of doubt, and all the awfulness of 
 infidelity, and receive my reward in the peacefulness and 
 tranquillity of soul, which he had himself experienced, 
 and which it was absolutely impossible I could ever expe- 
 rience otherwise ; for that I must else continue in doubt 
 and difficulty, and that ray doubts must increase, and my 
 difficulties become still more difficult, and my whole mind 
 become so mystified and perplexed and entangled, that 1 
 must end in infidelity. There was no escape but in the 
 Church of Rome. 
 
102 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 I could not but smile, while I thanked him for his 
 anxiety about my doubts and difficulties ; and I assured 
 him, that I had never any doubt or difficulty, as to the 
 truth of all required of me as a member of the Church of 
 England ; that the only doubts and difficulties of which I 
 was conscious, had reference not to the Church of England, - 
 but to the Church of Rome ; — that, residing as I then 
 was in the city of Rome, the seat of that Church, I was 
 forced to consider whether I could hold communion with 
 her, — that having been invited to join myself to her, I 
 felt doubts and difficulties of so cogent a nature, in my 
 judgment, to such a step, that I had not done so ; and 
 that I never could do so, unless my objections to the 
 Church of Rome were fully removed. I added that my 
 
 previous communications with Padre M , arose from his 
 
 proposal that I should freely state my objections, and thus 
 give him an opportunity of answering and removing them. 
 
 He replied by saying, that he had been under a mistake, 
 but that it need not affect our commuoications, as he could 
 quite understand, and enter into my feelings on the point ; 
 the more so as he had himself had long and sad experience 
 of the same state of mind, — that he had indeed been bitterly 
 tried and sadly perplexed by difficulties, by prejudices and 
 by distastes, — that he was conscious of a feeling amounting 
 to repugnance and loathing of some things, and seemingly 
 an impossibility of believing others, — that in all these he 
 had probably felt as many and as great difficulties, as those 
 which now stood in my way, and opposed my union with 
 the Church of Rome ; and that if he had listened to them 
 and continued to argue them out, as I seemed disposed to 
 do, he should probably have continued a Protestant to the 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 103 
 
 present day, or rather, as he immediately corrected himself, 
 he should probably have become an Infidel ; for he had 
 brought himself to that pass, that he had reasoned himself 
 into the belief, that the Church or religion of Rome seemed 
 to him more natural, more reasonable, more consistent and 
 better put together, than the Church or religion of Christ, 
 so far as it could be gathered from the Scriptures ; and 
 thus he must become either a Catholic or an Infidel ; em- 
 bracing the Church of Rome or none at all. He continued 
 to say, that my only as well as my most comfortable course, 
 was to fling aside all my mental difficulties, no longer to 
 debate or argue the objections ; but remembering they had 
 all been already decided by the Infallible authority of the 
 Church, dismiss them for ever from my mind : that he had 
 himself felt the advantage and comfort of this, for that a 
 doubt on any point, as for example, on Transubstantiation, 
 never crossed his mind. Whatever difficulties might exist, 
 they never troubled him now, for he laid them all on the 
 tribunal, which had already infallibly decided them. 
 
 I said in reply to all this, that I could well understand 
 such a course, as an easy and effectual way of disposing of 
 some difficulties ; and that I had long been in the habit of 
 acting on it. I fully felt the value and indeed the necessity 
 for a tribunal, an infallible tribunal to determine the reli- 
 gious difficulties of my mind, and I knew and felt they 
 could not be satisfactorily and safely determined, by mere 
 human authority, my mind being so constituted, as to re- 
 quire the decision of Divine authority to satisfy it : and 
 that I therefore felt the necessity of referring all to an in- 
 fallible authority. 
 
 My friend seemed to accept this as all he required, and 
 
104 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 was about to proceed with his argument, when I continued 
 to say, that I had found and felt that the Holy Scriptures 
 were the Word of God, — that they were inspired by Him, 
 and therefore were infallible ; that being of Divine and 
 not mere human authority, they were an infallible tribunal 
 to whose decisions our difficulties should be referred, — that 
 by God's grace and mercy, my mind was completely sub- 
 dued and submissive to them ; so subdued and submissive, 
 that no matter how opposed to previous convictions any 
 statement might be, yet if only it was clearly maintained 
 or justified by the Holy Scriptures, I at once bowed to it 
 as of Divine and infallible authority. I added that the 
 difference between him and me was, that he bowed to a 
 supposed authority, the inspiration and divinity of which I 
 denied ; while I bowed to an authority, whose inspiration 
 and divinity was admitted by all. He yielded to the deci- 
 sions of the Papal Bulls, while I bowed to the decisions of 
 the Holy Scriptures. 
 
 His answer to this was precisely what I had anticipated. 
 He acknowledged that in appealing to the Holy Scriptures, 
 the Protestants appealed to that which must be recognized 
 as an infallible tribunal ; but that he objected to the prac- 
 tical inutihty of the Holy Scriptures to such a purpose, as 
 unfitted and inadequate to the wants of the Church. He 
 argued that this unfitness and inadequacy, arose from their 
 liability to a variety of interpretation on the part of a 
 variety of persons, — that if ten men could be produced 
 united in one interpretation, he could produce ten more 
 insisting upon some opposite or different one ; and neither 
 had right or authority to say the other was wrong ; and 
 thence he argued that this liability to a diversity of inter- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 105 
 
 pretation, was a fatal objection to the fitness or adequacy 
 of the Holy Scriptures, for the deterraination of controver- 
 sies or the solution of diificulties. 
 
 I rejoined to this, that although the argument had often 
 before been urged in many works of controversy, yet it had 
 never seemed to me to have weight in the matter for which 
 it was adduced, because the very same objection in all its 
 force was as apphcable to the system of the Church of 
 Rome. If appeal he made to the canon law, — if reference 
 be made to the writings of the primitive Fathers, — ^if the 
 appeal be made to the decrees of Councils, — if the refer- 
 ence be made to the Bulls of Popes, — if, in short, it be 
 made to any documents, supposed to contain the infallible 
 mind of the Church, there will be found as great a diver- 
 sity of interpretation, as if the reference be made to the 
 Holy Scriptures. They all have been and still are as 
 liable to diversity of interpretation as the Holy Scriptures ; 
 so that if he could produce ten men for one interpretation, 
 I could produce ten more for a different interpretation ; 
 and for every ten Roman Catholic authors, whom he might 
 adduce as teaching infallibility, as residing in the Popes, 
 and not in the Councils, I could adduce ten others teach- 
 ing that infallibility resides in the Councils and not in the 
 Popes. And I argued, that if a liability to a diversity of 
 interpretation, or variety of opinion, were an adequate ob- 
 jection to the Holy Scriptures, as the final tribunal of ap- 
 peal in questions of religion, then a similar liability must 
 be an adequate objection against the writings of Fathers, 
 the Canons of Rome, the decrees of Councils, or the Bulls 
 of Popes. They all were liable to diversity of interpreta- 
 tion, and variety of opinion. 
 
 F 5 
 
]06 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 He acknowledged frankly and at once, that he thought 
 my answer was suflScient, so far as those writings, Canons, 
 Decrees, and Bulls, that have been already passed or 
 written, are concerned. They are now written documents, 
 and as such they necessarily become liable to various inter- 
 pretations in the hands of able and subtle men. They are 
 all therefore in the same category, and liable to the same 
 objection as the Holy Scriptures. He would fully admit 
 all this. But he thought that the great advantage of the 
 Church of Rome consisted in having one, who, as the 
 Head of the Church, was a living and speaking Judge, who 
 could at any moment determine infallibly the question 
 under debate ; and that it was better to refer such question 
 to the infallible decision of the Pope, as Head of the Church, 
 than to the Holy Scriptures, which every disputant would 
 interpret as suited his purpose. He then went on to speak 
 of the comfort of being able to fling away the mental diffi- 
 culties, and intellectual doubtings, with which some minds 
 were oppressed, stating how he had felt it in his own ex- 
 perience ; and that I could never know the end of such 
 difficulties and doubtings, until like him, I resolved to cast 
 them all aside and lay the responsibilitj' of all the right or 
 wrong, all the truth or error connected with them, on the 
 infallibility of this infallible authority. And he concluded 
 by saying; in very complimentary terms, that as my mind 
 was an enquiring one, and also a logical one, it was the 
 more necessary for me to take this course, as it was evident, 
 from the very character of my mind, that I must end in 
 Infidelity if I did not embrace Catholicity. 
 
 I thanked him with all courtesy, for the complimentary 
 terms in which he was pleased to describe the character of 
 
~ THE JESUITS AT ROMH. 107 
 
 my mind ; and I earnestly begged that he would accept 
 the inquiring and logical nature of my mind, in apology 
 for pressing so much for proofs and evidences before I 
 received any important statement. The character of my 
 mind required proofs, and must be my excuse to him for 
 asking what proof, what evidence, what argument he could 
 adduce, on which he would ask me to believe in the exist- 
 ence of any Infallible Tribunal on earth, other and besides 
 the Holy Scriptures. I observed that he had repeatedly 
 asserted the existence of such Infallible Tribunal, — that he 
 had offered it to me as a panacea or remedy for all njy 
 difficulties, — that fie pressed it as a resolver of all my 
 objections to the Church of Rome, — that he avowed it as 
 the basis of all his faith, as touching eternity ; and that 
 he presented the whole system of his religion, his faith and 
 hope, and the important step of embracing the Church of 
 Rome, as founded upon one point, namely, that there was 
 a living and speaking Infallible Tribunal on earth, other 
 and beside the Holy Scriptures. I therefore asked with 
 all earnestness and solemnity — As you say my mind is a 
 logical one, so you will believe that my mind requires a 
 clear, cogent, unanswerable proof of the actual existence of 
 such a tribunal ; and I therefore ask — On what evidence, 
 proof or argument, do you present it to me ? You say 
 that all, — Catholicity, Protestantism, Infidelity, depend on 
 the reception or rejection of it. Heaven and Hell depend 
 on it. It requires a strong foundation, for it has much to. 
 carry. 
 
 He assented to this, and said he would at once enter on 
 the question. He then proceeded to say that one argu- 
 ment for the existence of this tribunal was, — Necessity. He 
 
108 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 referred to the variety of opinions that agitate and distract 
 the Church, — to the conflicting elements which charac- 
 terize the diiferent sects, to the difficulties that beset the 
 pathway of every enquirer, — to the doubts and conflicts 
 that perpetually oppress the minds of thinking men, — to the 
 difficulties apparently, perhaps really, insurmountable, that 
 surround some minds, — he referred to these as creating a 
 necessity for some tribunal. He said the minds of meu 
 were in doubt, and an infallible tribunal is necessary to re- 
 solve those doubts, — that there are diversities of opinions 
 as to faith and practice, agitating various sections of the 
 Church, and an infallible tribunal is necessary to decide 
 between them, — that there were sects and schisms innu- 
 merable, all maintaining opposite doctrines, and an 
 infallible tribunal is necessary to determine and settle 
 all. He thus based his argument on the supposed 
 necessity. 
 
 To this I replied by saying, that in the Holy Scrip- 
 tures we possessed that which all Christian Churches re- 
 garded as the word of God, and therefore infallible ; and 
 that the necessity of which he spoke, was thus fully pro- 
 vided for. We have in them an infallible tribunal, and we 
 see no necessity for any other, and especially such an one 
 as decrees of Councils, or Bulls of Popes, which are often 
 directly contradictory and opposed to one another, and all 
 of which are liable to diversity of interpretation as much 
 as the Holy Scriptures, so that we gain nothing by leaving 
 the Scriptures and flying to them. I then added, that he 
 had assumed a necessity for some infallible tribunal, and I 
 appealed to him, asking whether as a logician, he was 
 satisfied with his own argument, — whether it was good 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 109 
 
 logic or sound reasoning, to say that there are diversities 
 of opinion, and therefore there is a necessity for an infal- 
 lible tribunal, and therefore there is such a tribunal ; whe- 
 ther such a syllogism could be used in the College of 
 Nobles, of which he was a tutor ? — where was the vis con- 
 sequentics, by which he could conclude the existence of a 
 thing from the imagined necessity or convenience of the 
 thing. I asked whether, as a logician, he really thought 
 that so important a point as the existence of an infallible 
 tribunal, was sufficiently demonstrated by a mere opinion 
 of the great convenience or necessity for it, in the 
 present state of the Church ; and I asked further, 
 whether as a Christian he would think me justified in 
 placing all my faith on that which seemed so inadequately 
 proved. 
 
 He paused some time before he replied. It appeared to 
 me, as I observed him, that he was struggling with himself, 
 as if he felt that the answer he was about to give, was 
 other than he wished. His manner was different from the 
 confidence and self-possession he had previously shewn. 
 After some moments, he smiled good-humouredly at his 
 own argument, as it seemed to me ; and he frankly stated 
 that it did not satisfy himself, that he could not defend 
 the logic of it, and that of course the argument must go 
 for nothing ; adding freely and with a good-humoured smile, 
 that he thought I should not be justified in changing my 
 religious views upon such grounds. 
 
 I could not, after so frank an admission on his part, press 
 further on the point ; but I asked him whether he could 
 advance any further and more satisfactory argument, re- 
 minding him that he had asked me to cast aside all my 
 
110 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 reasonings, my doubtings, my difficulties, and my objec- 
 tions, and to lay the solution and responsibility of all on 
 the infallible tribunal ; and that the argument ought there- 
 fore to be logical, clear, cogent and unanswerable. 
 
 He answered by saying, that he could prove its exist- 
 ence, from the usefulness and convenience of such a tri- 
 bunal ; so useful and convenient, that vre must suppose a 
 good and beneficent God must have granted it to the 
 Church. He then repeated his former statement, touch- 
 ing similarly on the doubts, the divisions, the conflicts, the 
 sects of the Church ; and he argued that an infallible 
 tribunal would be so desirable, so advantageous, so consis- 
 tent with the goodness and beneficence of God, in order to 
 remedy these evils in the Church, that God may well be 
 supposed to have established a tribunal so useful and con- 
 venient. 
 
 I asked him quietly — Do you yourself think, that your 
 proving it to be convenient or useful or desirable for the 
 Church, is really proving that it does exist in the Church ? 
 Do you yourself think, that in logic you are justified in 
 inferring the existence of anything, from the supposed use- 
 fulness of the thing ? 
 
 He at once and with the utmost candour admitted, that 
 his argument had so far failed, that I should not be justi- 
 fied in believing the existence of an infallible tribunal, 
 on the grounds he had stated. He seemed perplexed, as 
 if unprepared to enter further on the argument, or as if he 
 had never before considered the point with sufficient care. 
 I was much surprised at his apparent confusion, and could 
 not well understand his being so unprepared on so impor- 
 tant a question. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 11 J 
 
 I added, liowever, that the supposed convenience and 
 usefulness of an infallible tribunal, was the argument 
 most generally urged in its behalf. — the argument usually- 
 unfolded in writing, and urged in conversation, at least 
 so far as my personal experience extended ; so that it 
 seemed to me to be the main basis or foundation of this 
 important matter ; and that I really was unable to under- 
 stand, how thinking and earnest men could hazard all their 
 faith and hope, and peril all the destinies of eternity, on 
 a principle founded, as it seemed to my poor judgment, ou 
 so frail and inadequate a basis. I felt mySelf that I could 
 not do so. It would, I acknowledMd, undoubtedly be very 
 convenient and useful for us, that Hell with all its horrors 
 should be annihilated ; but we are not justified in believing 
 therefore that Hell is annihilated. It would also without 
 any question, be useful and convenient for us beyond ex- 
 pression, that sin should be abolished and driven from the 
 world ; but we are not therefore to infer that sin is so 
 abolished. The annihilation of Hell, and the abolition of 
 our liability to sin, would be an act that in our eyes might 
 seem very consistent witli the goodness and compassion 
 and beneficence of God ; but we were not thence to infer, 
 that He has annihilated the one, or abolished the other. 
 And in the same way, I continued, our proving the con- 
 venience or usefulness of an infallible tribunal, other and 
 besides the Holy Scriptures, or its suitableness to the 
 goodness of God, cannot be regarded as any adequate 
 argument to prove that God has actually established it. 
 The question is, — not what God could or might have done, 
 but what he has done. 
 
 The conversation now assumed a most unexpected phase. 
 
112 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 He frankly and at once, and with no little emotion, acknow- 
 ledged that his arguments hfid failed, — that ray answer 
 was sufficient to set it aside, — that his argument was illo- 
 gical, and that at the best all he had urged could not prove 
 the matter before us, as so important a point required to 
 be proved. All this was confessed so frankly, so unhesita- 
 tingly, and with so much evident earnestness, as it seemed 
 to me, that I was taken quite by surprise. I began to 
 imagine, that perhaps his own belief in an infallible tri- 
 bunal was shaking, and that as he so fully surrendered the 
 foundations on which he had built it, he might be disposed 
 to forsake the whole structure itself. 
 
 I paused for some moments to give him time to draw 
 his own conclusions, and at least to collect his thoughts ; 
 for he seemed confused by the position in which he un- 
 expectedly found himself. After a while I asked, — What 
 farther argument can you adduce, to demonstrate the ex- 
 istence of this infallible tribunal. 
 
 He answered "Really I do not just now recollect any 
 other. I thought that these would have been enough. 
 
 I said — " But how do you prove to your own mind, — 
 how do you at this moment satisfy your own mind, as to 
 the existence of this infallible tribunal ? " 
 
 He replied — " I have always assumed it, — I have always 
 assumed it, — I have always taken it for granted without 
 further consideration." 
 
 He spoke this with much emotion. I felt for him, for 
 he seemed both confused and humbled ; and I would not 
 have pressed him farther, only that I felt I had perhaps a 
 duty to discharge, — a duty to the truth of God, — and a 
 duty to himself, by endeavouring to strengthen any doubts 
 
THE JKSUITS AT ROME. 113 
 
 that might possibly have been raised in his mind. I there- 
 fore addressed him with much earnestness, and in all the 
 kindness of holy brotherhood, reminding him how he had 
 some moments before told me, that he had abandoned 
 Protestant principles, — forsaking the faith of his fathers, — 
 giving up the creed and religion of his youth, and embraced 
 the whole system of the Church of Rome, — that he had 
 cast all his difficulties and doubts and objections, at the 
 foot of this infallible tribunal ; and had done despite to 
 his former convictions, and done violence to his judgment, 
 and all this in submissive obedience to the decisions of 
 this supposed tribunal : I reminded him also of his having 
 invited me to follow his example, to cease reasoning, to 
 waive objections, to fling all aside and change my church, 
 my religion ; and stake all the interests of time and the 
 destinies of eternity, upon the credit of this infallible tri- 
 bunal of the Church of Rome, of whose existence or reality 
 he was obliged to acknowledge he had no adequate proof. 
 
 He replied with great feeling — " The truth is, I have 
 always assumed it. It never occurred to me in this light 
 before. I have never further questioned it. I have always 
 assumed it." 
 
 All this portion of our conversation was marked by great 
 emotion on his part, and I felt it difficult to account for it. 
 My opinions of the controversial skill and acumen of the 
 Jesuits, made me suspect that he was only playing a part, 
 to throw me off my guard, and lead me to express my real 
 hostility to the Church of Rome, i could not understand 
 how a man trained in all the intrigues and subtleties of the 
 College of the Jesuits, and specially selected to argue with 
 and answer my objections, could have broken down so soon 
 
114 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 aud so easily. And I was therefore undecided as to the 
 character of his emotion. Whether it was the natural 
 emotion of a controversialist, who felt himself foiled when 
 he anticipated an easy victory, or whether it was the emo- 
 tion of one who had perilled his all for time and eternity, 
 upon a position which he now felt to be untenable, I was 
 at a loss to determine. Perhaps it was not for me to form 
 any opinion. The Lord judgeth the heart. I only know 
 that he expressed himself with great earnestness and emo- 
 tion, repeatedly placing his hand on his forehead, and re- 
 peating the words, " I have always assumed it, I have 
 always taken it for granted." I did not interrupt the train 
 of his thoughts, whatever they were, but left him under 
 the guidance of Him, who could direct and order all his 
 thoughts to the highest and holiest ends. I felt however 
 that if my friend was sincere, his belief in the Church of 
 Rome was already shaken in its most vital part. 
 
 Some visitors were at this moment announced, and our 
 conversation was interrupted for a short time. During the 
 pause he seemed to be collecting his thoughts and recover- 
 ing himself, and as my object in all my communications 
 with him and others, was not so much to overthrow his 
 positions, and refute his arguments, as to draw him out, so 
 as to learn quietly and unsuspiciously, all he and they had 
 to offer in behalf of the system of Romanism, — as this 
 was my object, learning thus the mode of reasoning and 
 seduction practised on English Protestants, I resumed the 
 subject, and asked him, whether he felt satisfied with merely 
 assuming the existence of an infallible tribunal. 
 
 He then said — We can prove its existence, or rather we 
 may assume its existence without proof, in the same way 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME 115 
 
 as we assume the existence of God without proof. No 
 man, he continued, catx prove the existence of God. It is 
 incapable of proof. Instead of proving it, we always assume 
 it ; and in the same way we need not prove the existence of 
 an infallible tribunal, but may assume it without proof. 
 
 I replied, that we never assumed the existence of God, 
 except with those who admitted and believed it : — that I 
 could not speak of the practice in the university and schools 
 of theology of Rome ; but that I could answer for the 
 universities and schools of theology in England, where they 
 would never assume the existence of God, unless with those 
 who believed and acknowledged it. But with the infidels 
 we argued from the things created, to Him who created 
 them. Everything which we see or know has a beginning, 
 and this is not a thing assumed, but a matter of every man's 
 experience. Every created thing of which we have any 
 experimental knowledge, has or has had a beginning. It 
 must be the result of some cause, and that the result of 
 some previous cause, and that again the result of some still 
 precedent cause ; but still, however unseen, or distant, or 
 untraceable the various links in the chain of cause and 
 effect, there can be no result without a cause, and conse- 
 quently a First Cause, and this First Cause we call God. 
 Instead, therefore, of assuming the existence of the First 
 Cause, we prove it. If the existence of an infallible tribunal 
 on earth be parallel to this, it should be proved as clearly. 
 
 He at once acknowledged that the cases were not ana- 
 logous, and he said that he could prove his position from the 
 Scriptures. He observed me smiling at this, and he good- 
 humouredly smiled in return, saying, that he feared we could 
 not arrive at any conclusion from them, as we should be 
 
116 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 sure to adopt different interpretations of each place ; and 
 that it was necessary we should commence with some point 
 on which we were agreed, and so argue from it, — that the 
 Scriptures were utterly useless for such a purpose, inasmuch 
 as we could not agree amidst the variety of interpretations, 
 — that they were always appealed to by all parties, and so 
 could really decide nothing satisfactorily, and therefore he 
 suggested that we were agreed on " the Apostles' Creed," 
 and could argue from it. 
 
 I said that as he would not argue from the Holy Scrip- 
 tures, on the ground of there being diiFerent interpretations 
 or explanations of each place, 1 feared that there might be 
 the same objection to the Apostles' Creed ; as we were as 
 likely to differ in our interpretation or explanation of it. 
 But I added that I would be glad to hear him on the subject. 
 
 He argued from the words : — I believe in the Holy 
 Catholic Church," saying, that the words implied that the 
 Catholic Church was one, — that there was a oneness or 
 unity in it ; that there were not many, but one, — that this 
 oneness or unity required that it should have only one 
 head, to give utterance to the sentiments of the Church ; 
 and that this one head must be the seat of infallibility, as 
 otherwise the Church would become divided instead of 
 united, and many instead of one. 
 
 I could not but smile at this reasoning, and wondered 
 where the vis consequently was to be found. I said however 
 in reply, that it was the belief of all Protestants that the 
 Church was one in Christ, — that it had not many but one 
 head in Christ, — that it knew and imagined only one in- 
 fallible expression of truth ; namely, the Holy Scripture ; 
 and then I asked him, — When you say that the Church 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 117 
 
 being one, must have one mouth-piece to utter her senti- 
 ments, where is the vis consequentiee ? And when you say 
 that there being this one mouth-piece, proves the existence 
 of an infaUible tribunal, where is the vis consequentiee ? I 
 appealed to him as one practised in the system of the 
 schools, practised in the system of reasoning by syllogism, 
 whether such reasoning was admissible, and whether he 
 could justly draw such an inference from my believing that 
 Christ has a Holy and Universal Church, — a " Holy Ca- 
 tholic Church." 
 
 He exhibited on this, as indeed all through our previous 
 conversation, the same apparent candor, as if he was con- 
 versing upon a topic on which he felt indifferent, and not 
 at all as if he sought or contemplated my conversion . to 
 Romanism. He acknowledged that his argument from the 
 words of the creed, " the Holy Catholic Church," was in- 
 conclusive and unsatisfactory, not calculated to convince : 
 I therefore asked him whether he thought he could prove 
 his position by any other process. 
 
 He replied by saying, that he thought he should be able 
 to prove, that the existence of an infallible tribunal was not 
 inconsistent with Scripture, or with History, or with Tra- 
 dition, or with Reason. 
 
 I said, that this could not satisfy me, as the existence of 
 the tribunal must first be proved. Its existence must first 
 be established, and then its consistency or inconsistency 
 with these may be in a way of being debated. I therefore 
 again asked him to prove it. 
 
 He said that he did not at that moment recollect any 
 further argument. 
 
 I then reminded him, that he had frankly admitted that 
 
118 MOENINGS AMONG 
 
 he had failed in each of the arguments he had already 
 adduced, — that he had withdrawn every one of them, so 
 that we were still as we were at the beginning ; therefore I 
 asked him for some new and additional argument. 
 
 He said that he had advanced all he had recollected ; 
 that he had thought that these would have sufficed, but 
 that he must admit that he had failed. 
 
 I then asked — Am I to understand that you forsook your 
 Protestant principles, and laid all your scruples and objec- 
 tions and difficulties, — and you have told me they were 
 many and great, — at the feet of this infallible tribunal ; 
 when as you now admit, you have had no conclusive and 
 satisfactory argument to prove even the existence of such a 
 tribunal? Have you not taken a step of tremendous im- 
 portance on very inadequate grounds, — grounds that cer- 
 tainly do not justify a course of such overwhelming impor- 
 tance ? 
 
 He replied thoughtfully as before. " I have always 
 assumed it, 1 have always- taken it for granted." 
 
 I then again asked him, whether it was possible he could 
 not produce any stronger proof of the existence of this 
 infallible authority in the Church of Home ; — since it was 
 the position on which he based all his professed belief, — 
 that it was the ground on which he asked me to change my 
 Church and faith ; and that it ought therefore to be esta- 
 blished by clear and cogent and irrefragable arguments. A 
 man ought not to change his religion or Church on slight 
 grounds. I said that I was indifferent to the common 
 arguments on the subject, as they were in all controversial 
 works, and might there be read by every one ; but that 
 I should be glad — and that I was anxious, to hear what 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 119 
 
 those arguments were, which were still influencing his own 
 mind. He had professed a belief in this infallible authority ; 
 — I asked him on what grounds he then believed it. 
 
 He answered at once, — He had always been in the habit 
 of assuming it. He had never questioned it, or thought 
 of it in the way in which it had now been considered. A 
 belief in it had been habitual with him. He had alwavs 
 taken it as proved, and he had never questioned it : but, 
 he added thoughtfully, after a pause,"! must consider the 
 subject, — I must reconsider it." 
 
 The tone and manner in which this fell from him made 
 me pause. The well known character of all connected with 
 the order of the Jesuits, made me wonder at the want of 
 talent, subtlety, and argument so apparent in the part he 
 had taken in this conversation. I had been prepared to see 
 an able, ingenious, and perhaps profound controversialist. 
 I had anticipated this, from all I had ever read and heard 
 of the Jesuits, and especially those who were selected to 
 deal with the Anglican clergy ; and I was conscious of feel- 
 ing some degree of trepidation, in the prospect of measuring 
 lances with such opponents. But here was a man with- 
 drawing his arguments, confessing their inadequacy and 
 invalidity, and acknowledging that he had only habitually 
 assumed the existence of infallibility in the Church of Borne ! 
 I was very far from being prepared for this ; and I must 
 candidly confess it, I did not believe the sincerity of it, It 
 had frequently occurred to me, that as he had once been a 
 Protestant, — as he seemed from some things that dropped 
 from him, as to his private aifairs and his past life, to feel 
 himself under more controul at Rome than he liked, — he 
 would readily avail himself of a good excuse for again 
 
120 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 changing his religion and Church ; and would fly to Eng- 
 land, if encouragement and support were ensured to him. 
 This idea had several times occurred to my wife and myself ; 
 especially to her, to whom he had spoken much as to his 
 private history ; so that I thought at some moments that 
 he either could not conscientiously or would not wilUngly 
 maintain his argument against me ; — I felt perplexed. I 
 sometimes thought that he might he a very honest hut 
 misguided man, who had never fairly considered the 
 matter, and was now for the first time opening his eyes. 
 And then again I feared it might he the ruse of some 
 suhtle and accomplished Jesuit, endeavouring hy this 
 appearance of candour to throw me off my guard, and thus 
 ascertain whether my real object was to consider these 
 questions, or to attempt to raise doubts in the minds of the 
 priests at Rome. I felt that if I gave them reason to 
 suppose that I was making any attempt at proselytising, 
 I should immediately be ordered by the police to leave 
 Rome ; and I therefore found it difficult to determine how 
 to deal with him. I resolved at last to be silent. I felt 
 that enough had been said to make an honest man reflect, 
 and that if he were only playing the Jesuit with me, my 
 best course was the appearence of indifference, in order to 
 foil his purpose. I therefore turned from the subject, and 
 did not again revert to anything theological for some time. 
 
 After a conversation upon several topics connected with 
 "our friends at Rome, I resumed our subject. 
 
 I said we had argued hitherto only as to the existence 
 of an infallible tribunal, and there was a futher point on 
 which 1 was anxious for information, and would be glad to 
 know his opinion ; I alluded to the locality or residence of 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 121 
 
 this infallibility. I said the point presented considerable 
 difficulties to my mind. I did not know where to find it. 
 If once I left the Holy Scriptures I did not know where to 
 go ; and even assuming that an infallible tribunal existed 
 somewhere, I yet could not avail myself of it, for I knew 
 not where to find it, — in the fathers, — in tradition, — in 
 councils, — in popes, — in the church diffused — I knew not 
 where or to whom I should go. Now assuming its exist- 
 ence somewhere, I asked his opinion as to whether it could 
 be found in the writings of the fathers. 
 
 His answer was — Certainly not. 
 
 I said that in this I agreed with him ; that I had read a 
 good many of their writings, — that some of them were un- 
 doubtedly master-minds, — that there were some beautiful 
 things in them ; but that there were also many things of a 
 very different character, indeed highly objectionable ; some 
 things wrong, some things puerile, some things in one 
 father opposed to other fathers, and even some parts of 
 the same father opposed to other portions of his own 
 writings, so that on the whole they seemed to me a very 
 mistaken and uncertain authority, on which no thinking 
 man could depend. 
 
 He answered by stating his entire concurrence in this 
 sentiment ; saying frankly, that he had not read much of 
 the fathers ; but that from what he had read, with the 
 exception of St. Augustine, there seemed to him much of 
 weakness, much of puerility, much of positive error, 
 though at the same time, mixed with much talent, piety 
 and learning ; but certainly unworthy of the position in 
 which some theologians seemed disposed to place them ; 
 and whatever good was in their writings, they were wholly 
 
 G 
 
122 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 unfit for the uses to which some would apply them, as 
 authoritative interpreters of Scripture, or indeed as autho- 
 ritative on any question of theology. 
 
 I expressed myself as glad that we were so far agreed, 
 and could thus lay aside the fathers, adding that they 
 themselves justified and recommended our doing so, by the 
 manner in which they treated each other, confuting and 
 opposing one another. 
 
 He added that St. Augustine had said, that he would 
 not believe anything merely on the ground that it had been 
 taught by any number of fathers ; that, as such, the fathers 
 had no authority with St. Augustine ; " and why," he 
 asked, " why should they have authority with us ? " ' 
 
 I perceived that we were agreed thus far, and I therefore 
 added that the fathers not only rejected each other's autho- 
 rity, but also the authority of Councils and Churches, and 
 demanded submission to the Holy Scriptures, pointing to 
 them, as is usual among Protestants, as to the only seat of 
 infallible truth. 
 
 He quickly contradicted me in this, and said that the 
 fathers did not reject the decisions of Councils or Churches. 
 
 I was prepared for this, and replied by saying, I would 
 let St. Augustine speak for himself, and opening a volume 
 which I had purposely with me, read the following passage 
 from that father. " I ought not to adduce the council of 
 Nice, nor ought you to adduce the council of Ariminum ; 
 for I am not bound by the authority of one, nor are you 
 bound by the-authority of the other. Let the question be 
 determined by the authority of the Scriptures, which are 
 witnesses pecuUar to neither of us, but common to both." 
 (Con. Max. 3. c. 14.) I said this was a very clear rejec- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 123 
 
 tion of the authority of councils, the more remarkable as 
 the council of Nice was one of them. 
 
 He remarked that he had not recollected the passage. 
 
 I then called his attention to another, where St. Augus- 
 tine says, " We do not say that you ought to believe us, 
 that we are in the Church, because Optatus or Ambrose 
 have praised the Church which we hold, nor because other 
 innumerable bishops of our communion have done the 
 same, nor because our Church has been proclaimed by 
 councils of our colleagues, nor because wonderful miracles 
 of hearing and healing have been wrought in those places 
 where our communion is frequented : " and a little after- 
 wards he adds, — " Laying aside all such arguments, let 
 them prove their Church if they can, not in the discourses 
 or reports of the Africans, nor in the councils of their 
 bishops, nor in th« writings of any controversialist what- 
 ever, nor by miracles and wonders, which are liable to 
 deceit, and against which we have been forewarned and 
 cautioned by the words of our Lord. But let them prove 
 it in the Law, in the predictions of the Prophets, in the 
 songs of the Psalmist, in the words of the Shepherd him- 
 self, in the preaching and labours of the Evangelists, that 
 is, in all the canonical authorities of the sacred volume." 
 I added that in these passages from St. Augustine's trea- 
 tise De Unitate (c. 16.) he seems to reject the authority of 
 fathers, councils, and churches, and appeals only to the 
 Holy Scriptures ; and " why " I asked, " why should not 
 we follow his example, and examine our different doctrines 
 by the Holy Scriptures, which we acknowledge to be infal- 
 lible, instead of appealing to anything else ? " 
 
 He replied, that he could not go with me in appealing 
 G 2 
 
124 " MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 to the Scriptures ; as the variety of interpretation to which 
 they were liable would be an insuperable difficulty ; and 
 that while he had not distinctly recollected those passages 
 in St. Augustine, yet he had a perfect recollection of that 
 father's expressing himself very differently elsewhere ; — 
 that he recollected a passage in which St. Augustine 
 expresses himself as willing to submit to anything the 
 bishops required, or which their predecessors enjoined, or 
 the councils desired, or the Church demanded, — that it be- 
 longed to them to possess and exercise authority ; and that 
 it was our province to submit and obey ; that whether the 
 things were in Scripture or not, if only the bishop or the 
 Church desired it, it was for us to submit and obey. Such 
 was the opinion of St. Augustine, founding the practice of 
 infant baptism on the simple ground of its being ordered, 
 not by Scripture, but by the Church ; and stating that any 
 resistance to the authority of the bishop or the Church, 
 was an act of rebellion. He added that though he did not 
 recollect at the moment where those opinions of St. Au- 
 gustine were, he yet had a perfect recollection of having 
 read them in his writings. 
 
 I said that I quite believed such sentiments were to be 
 found in the writings of that Father, and that I could my- 
 self fully enter into them, — that they seemed to me to 
 relate to the ordinary canons, ceremonies, &c., referring to 
 the right conduct of Church matters, which are not touched 
 in Holy Scriptures, and which must be left to the authority 
 of the Church and its officials to arrange. But, I added, 
 " if you refer this language to matters of doctrine and 
 faith, I cannot go with yon, and the conclusion at which we 
 must arrive is this, namely, that as there are different pas- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 125 
 
 sages in the writings of St. Augustine, expressing different 
 and opposite opinions, — as not only one father can be cited 
 against another father, but as in this instance, a father can 
 be cited against himself, the most reasonable course would 
 be to lay them altogether aside, and certainly not to appeal 
 to them as an infallible tribunal." 
 
 To this he assented, and even went further, saying, that 
 they never were fitted for being an authority in controver- 
 sies, — -that they frequently contradicted and controverted 
 each other, — that they often retracted and confuted them- 
 selves and their own writings, — that many of them held 
 positive error, — that though some were saints, there were 
 others who were not saints ; and that the writings of the 
 fathers had been made too much of by some theologians, 
 being often too erroneous, too fanciful and too puerile, to 
 secure the respect which was frequently paid to them. For 
 himself, he added, that he certainly could not be influenced 
 by them. 
 
 I then asked where, — as I must not look to the fathers, 
 — where he would direct me in searching for an infallible 
 authority. Whether he would refer me to tradition ? 
 
 He replied promptly and earnestly, " Most certainly not. 
 Tradition is not a safe or infallible guide." 
 
 I expressed myself pleased, at finding we were thus far 
 agreed, for that though I had a profound respect for tradi- 
 tion, in all that was within its proper and peculiar province, 
 I yet could not ascribe to it a shadow of authority in mat- 
 ters necessary to salvation. 
 
 He said that he quite assented to this, and agreed with 
 me thus far as to all that was purely traditionary ; for 
 although the words which the Apostles preached were 
 
126 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 quite as authoritative ^nd inspired, and therefore infallible, 
 as the words which the Apostles wrote, yet there was not 
 the same certainty about them. We are not so sure of 
 their identity. "Words spoken were too fugitive. The 
 litera scripta was preferable. 
 
 I said that he had just expressed the feeling I always 
 entertained on the subject of tradition, for, admitting that 
 the Apostles' preached word was quite as authoritative as 
 the Apostles' written word, yet we were not so sure that we 
 possess the former, we are not sure that many things are 
 not palmed on them which they never uttered ; that many 
 errors are not fathered on them, which were never begotten 
 by them, — that that which was purely traditionary was 
 universally regarded by all acquainted with historical re- 
 search, as essentially uncertain, — that consequently I was 
 unable to hold anything as necessary to be believed in 
 order to salvation, which was derived only through ecclesi- 
 astical tradition ; and that even if more credible than it is, 
 it still would remain too vague and uncertain for any en- 
 quiring or thinking person to refer to it, or depend on it as 
 an infallible tribunal. 
 
 He stated broadly and strongly that he felt very much 
 with me, and that tradition-^notwithstanding all that was 
 said of it — could never govern his mind. He felt it was 
 altogether too vague, too uncertain — so diverse at different 
 ages and in different countries, that he could not under- 
 stand why it had been made so much of in these contro- 
 versies. He spoke freely of our divines at Oxford — those 
 whose tendencies were towards the Church of Borne, as 
 exhibited in the " Tracts for the Times," in the "Ideal of 
 a Church," in the " Sermon on Tradition," &c. ; and 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 127 
 
 thought they had made a great mi^ake in making so much 
 of tradition as they affected to do — that it really had not 
 helped them, except among those ignorant of what tradi- 
 tion really was — that it had rather raised in many minds, 
 suspicions and prejudices against them and their object, — 
 that he deeply regretted and deplored that men, who might 
 have turned the whole Church of England, and brought all 
 the people of England nearer to the Church of Rome, and 
 even into her arms, had lost so noble an opportunity, by 
 exposing their good cause, by making so much of tradition 
 — that many of them in their zeal without knowledge, had 
 acted with the utmost imprudence in their mode of treat- 
 ing the subject — that they ought to have known that tra- 
 dition could never be established, — that it could easily be 
 shaken, that it was variable and uncertain and debateable 
 in itself, — that with calm minds it could never decide other 
 questions. He dwelt long on this point, and concluded by 
 saying, that he fully agreed with me that there was no in- 
 falhbility in tradition, although the whole history of the 
 Church, he added, gave evidence that an infallibility 
 existed. 
 
 I felt that we had now arrived at an important point in 
 this our conference, and my heart was full of thankfulness, 
 that the Spirit of all truth had thus far prospered me, and 
 given what I thought some measure of success. It was 
 clear that an appeal to the writings of the fathers and to 
 tradition was abandoned, and by mutual consent rejected. 
 I felt myself in this disencumbered of much trouble, which 
 I had feared would have been in my way, if he had re- 
 quired of me to enter on that large branch of controversy, 
 which he thus readily abandoned as untenable. And I 
 
128 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 was at the same time fearful of being led to express myself 
 in any terms, that might awaken his suspicions or alarm 
 him. I feared to say or do anything, that might awaken 
 in his mind a suspicion that I was desiring to create 
 doubts in his mind, and to attempt to proselytise him, or 
 even to lead him to think that I was not merely seeking 
 for information, and to clear my own views, and to learn 
 some answer to my objections, and to have my diflSculties 
 removed : but that I was also playing and tampering with 
 him. I much feared creating such an impression, as would 
 lead him to think I was incorrigible as a Protestant, and 
 altogether beyond his hopes of conversion, which would 
 have led to his withdrawal from all further intercourse with 
 nie. I was therefore very thankful to find myself freed 
 from all strife and difference about the fathers and tradition, 
 and thus disencumbered of a great source of uneasiness. 
 He evidently felt that he could not safely rely on any ar- 
 gument derived from either of these sources, and thus 
 readily abandoned them. 
 
 I soon again took the opportunity of reminding him, 
 that at the beginning of our conversation, he had urged 
 me to lay aside all my objections and difficulties and doubts 
 as to transubstantiation, the sacrifice of the mass, the 
 worship of Mary, and other points ; and at once to enter 
 the Church of Rome, laying all these doubts, &c., at the 
 foot of infallibility, which had already resolved and settled 
 them. I said that I should now ask him to shew me this 
 infallible tribunal, to tell me where it exists — where I may 
 find it and avail myself of it. There may be, I said to 
 him, a physician able to heal my sickness of the body, but 
 if I know not where to find him, his skill will remain use- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 129 
 
 less to me, and my sickness remains unhealed ; and in the 
 same way, supposing that this infaUible tribunal' exists 
 somewhere for the solution of my doubts, it will remain 
 utterly useless, unless I know where to find it in order to 
 avail myself of it, and cast my difficulties at its feet. 
 Where is it ? 
 
 He answered that it was in the Church speaking by its 
 infallible head — the Pope. 
 
 I said that I had always heard that it was somewhere in 
 the Church, but that men differed, even in the Cburch of 
 Kome, as to the precise somewhere. One class of her theo- 
 logians holds that infallibility resides in the popes ; A second 
 class maintains that it resides in a council : And a third 
 class asserts that it is not in either of these separately or in 
 both conjointly, but that it resides diffused through the 
 £!hurch generally. I added that these several classes of 
 theologians always seemed to me to argue very ably in 
 proving that their adversaries are wrong, but to reason very 
 weakly and defectively, when endeavouring to establish 
 their own views ; and I therefore expressed a wish to learn 
 to which of these systems his judgment inclined. 
 
 He answered my enquiry by saying, that the French 
 divines held that infallibility resides in general councils, 
 and not in the popes — that the Italian divines hold, that 
 it resides in the popes, and not in councils ; and that the 
 ancient Catholics of England used to side with the Italians 
 in favour of the popes, but that the modern Catholics of 
 that island have passed over to the opinions of the French 
 in favour of councils. He added for himself, that he held 
 it was in the popes. 
 
 I said in reference to his own views, that I rather coin- 
 G S 
 
ISO MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 cided with him, not indeed in thinking that infallibility 
 existed anywhere but in the Holy Scriptures, which were 
 inspired of God, and therefore infallible, but that if it 
 could exist anywhere else — ^in any of the three seats or 
 parties to which we had referred, the preponderance of 
 argument seemed to me to be decidedly in favour of the 
 papacy. Most of their arguments, I said, seemed to me 
 to be derived from something connected with St. Peter — 
 derived from some word spoken to him, or some promise 
 made to him, or some supremacy supposed to be in him ; 
 and therefore they all seemed to me to point to something 
 in the popes as succeeding him, rather than to anything in 
 the councils. 
 
 He expressed himself as much pleased and gratified, at 
 finding I agreed with him on that point, as it was one on 
 which his order — that of the Jesuits — held very decided 
 opinions. 
 
 I then said, that' though my impression was, that in the 
 question of councils, bishops, and popes, the arguments 
 rather inclined in favor of the claim of the popes, yet, sup- 
 posing that point settled, and all diflSculty removed from ray 
 mind on that poiut, there was a further difficulty immedi- 
 ately called into existence — namely, how it was to be ascer- 
 tained when the pope delivered himself infallibly. It was 
 admitted, I said, by all parties, that some popes had erred 
 — that some were heretical — and that even in the case of 
 orthodox popes, they sometimes spoke fallibly, and some- 
 times infallibly. There are many papal bulls, delivered 
 ex cathedra of course, which were directly opposite and con- 
 tradictory to other papal bulls, also delivered ex cathedra. 
 And under these admitted circumstances, the difficulty 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 131 
 
 pressing on my mind, would be, the means or test by which 
 I could distinguish between the fallible bulls and the in- 
 fallible bulls. 
 
 He replied, that that was a very difficult part of our en- 
 quiries, and that he thought it would be advisable for me 
 to have a conference, or meeting, with the professor of canon 
 law — that he was one of the order of the Jesuits — that he 
 was from the nature of his professorship, peculiarly com- 
 petent to give me information on that precise point, — that 
 he was very learned and talented, and had paid great atten- 
 tion to that department of ecclesiastical study ; and finally, 
 that in a few days he should arrange for a conversation on 
 the subject, informing the reverend professor of my diffi- 
 culties, that he might be prepared before-hand to give all 
 information and satisfaction to my enquiries. 
 
 Soon after this, with friendly and mutual expressions of 
 a hope, that we might soon agaia meet to converse for our 
 mutual edification on these deeply interesting matters, we 
 parted. 
 
132 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 CHAPTEK V. 
 
 THE DEATH OF A CONVERT — ADMINISTRATION OP FIVE SACKAMENT.S 
 
 PRATER THROUGH MARY HEARD SOONER THAN THROOGH CHRIST — 
 ARGUMENT FROM EXPERIENCE — THE MADONNA OP THE AUGUSTI- 
 NIANS— THE MEANS BY WHICH SAINTS HEAR PRAYERS—GOD A ME- 
 DIATOR OF THE SAINTS — OPINIONS OF ST. CHRYSOSTOM — THE INFLU- 
 ENCE OF THE WORSHIP OF MARY^ — MARY MORE COMPASSIONATE 
 THAN CHRIST. 
 
 It was not many days after the preceding interview, that 
 another priest of the Church of Rome called on us. He 
 was a man of considerable attainments, and singularly ac- 
 complished in some particulars. He held a position of 
 great influence in the Church, and his learning and character 
 added yet more if possible to the influence derived from his 
 station. He -came with the frank avowal of his object — 
 namely to attempt our conversion to the Church of Rome. 
 He felt, I believe, a very sincere regard for us, and would 
 have made any sacrifice to accomplish what appeared to 
 him so desirable a result. But at the same time, I felt that 
 great caution was required on my part — that a word from 
 him could send me at a moment's notice from Rome — and 
 that wisdom and prudence demanded that I should rather 
 endeavour to draw out his opinions — to get at his method 
 of reasoning with Protestants — to learn all he had to offer 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 133 
 
 — that I should rather endeavour to do this than to declare 
 my own opinions, and so by openly opposing him, expose 
 myself to the danger of being sent from Rome. I beliered 
 him to be really our friend, but I feared lest I should make 
 him as really our enemy. 
 
 We soon fell into conversation' on the subject. 
 
 It commenced by his asking me, how I thought he had 
 been occupied during the amusements of the carnival — 
 how I supposed he had been engaged ; adding that he had 
 taken no part in the ordinary amusements of the season. 
 
 To this enquiry I had no reply to offer, and therefore 
 merely said, that it was to be presumed he was occupied 
 with something more suited to his sacred office. 
 
 He immediately rejoined with much complacency, ac- 
 companied by some pride and joy — that sort of feeling very 
 general among them, when they have performed what is 
 called " a good work " — that he had been engaged in re- 
 ceiving a Protestant into the bosom of the Church of Rome. 
 
 I was very far from feeling any complacency at this 
 announcement, and I was anxious to learn which of my 
 countrymen was the unhappy victim. I could not under- 
 stand how any one seeing the realities of Romanism at 
 Rome, could ever be persuaded to join the system ; so, 
 resolving to watch my opportunity, and seeing he had some 
 object in introducing the subject, I left him to himself, 
 merely remarking that I thought he had been very natu- 
 rally occupied. 
 
 He then told the circumstances with much simplicity, 
 that the man was dying — that he had no relatives near him 
 — that one of his companions had talked much to him about 
 sending for a priest — that he had never avowed any wish 
 
134 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 on the subject of religion, or of a priest, that as he was 
 near death, my friend as a priest went to the bedside of 
 the man, — that he found him so far gone as to be speech- 
 less — that he therefore stated to him that he would kneel 
 down and oifer a prayer for him. His words were, " He 
 was speechless ; so I said I would kneel down and say one 
 of my prayers for him. I then immediately knelt down 
 and said the ' Hail Mary,' the ' Ave Maria.' " 
 
 I was perfectly astonished, and could not repress the 
 expression of my intense astonishment that at such a mo- 
 ment, when an immortal soul was passing into eternity — 
 when all the awful accompaniments of death were around 
 him, he could think of ofifering such a sentence, for prayer 
 it was not, as the " Hail, Mary ! " I repeated the words 
 of the " Ave Maria," and asked how it was possible that 
 he had no word to oifer — no counsel to give — no message 
 of forgiveness to announce — no gospel of salvation to 
 preach ? how it was possible that instead of praying to 
 Christ for forgiveness, praying to the Spirit for grace, 
 praying to God for salvation, he could only have offered 
 these words of worship to the Virgin Mary ? I was deeply 
 moved at what appeared to me, a frightful neglect of the 
 eternal interests of the dying man ; and did not hesitate 
 to express myself strongly, as to the fearful responsibihty 
 he had incurred. 
 
 He seemed not to have heard me, as if he was absorbed 
 in his own thoughts, so that my words were lost on him ; 
 and he said with eagerness that he had observed as he 
 knelt and said the " Hail Mary ! " that the dying man 
 moved his lips as if secretly repeating the words after him, 
 for being speechless he could not repeat the words openly ; 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 135 
 
 and that he said to the dying man, " and can you repeat 
 that prayer after me ? " For, he said, addressing himself 
 to me, " there is nothing against which the feelings and 
 prejudices of Protestants are more strong and enduring 
 than against praymg to the Holy Virgin, so," he added, 
 " I felt that when the dying man could join me in that 
 prayer to the Holy Virgin, he must have been very far 
 gone towards us." 
 
 " Very far gone indeed ! " I replied. 
 
 " Yes," he continued, " he seemed to repeat the prayer 
 after me, and feeling he must have gone very far towards 
 us, I asked him farther whether he could not join our 
 Church in all the rest. He shewed by his manner that he 
 could, and that he wished to be received into our Church ; 
 so I heard his confession and gave hira absolution." 
 
 At this I was on the point of asking my priestly friend, 
 whose tone and manner was exulting in the highest degree, 
 how he could hear the confession of a man who was speech- 
 less ? and how a speechless man could utter his confession ? 
 but I checked myself on recollecting that according to their 
 canons, he was justified in exhorting the man to make con- 
 fession, and then in assuming a confession to have been 
 made in such cases, where the person is too far gone to be 
 able to speak ; so I was silent. 
 
 He proceeded to say, that after having thus confessed 
 and absolved the dying man, there arose a doubt as to 
 whether the man had ever been baptized ; and though 
 baptism must never be repeated, yet, as Protestants were 
 very careless in administering baptism, it was felt safe to 
 give conditional baptism to such converts. It was so cus- 
 tomary he said, among the Protestant Churches to baptize 
 
136 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 without properly pouring the water on the child, that there 
 was no certainty that there was a real baptism ; and though 
 they could not think of repeating baptism, yet they always 
 gave conditional baptism in such cases to converts. "And 
 in this way," he added, "I baptised the man conditionally, 
 and then I had him immediately confirmed, and he re- 
 ceived the communion, and then the extreme unction, and 
 thus he received almost at once no less than five sacra- 
 ments ! " 
 
 He spoke this in a tone of exultation and triumph, as 
 if some great and good achievement had been accomplished. 
 I must confess that I was amused, notwithstanding the 
 sadness of his statement, and the solemnity of the subject. 
 It seemed so strange a proceeding for a man, a minister of 
 Christ at the bed of a dying man, merely to offer as a 
 prayer the " Hail Mary," — it seemed so simply said that 
 when a protestant prays to the Virgin Mary, he must be 
 very far gone, it seemed so necessary to apologise for re- 
 baptizing a Protestant — it seemed so absurd to speak of a 
 speechless man's making a confession of his sins so as to 
 receive absolution ; and above all it seemed so inconsistent 
 with all our views of true religion, to regard it as necessary, 
 and even to make a boast of it, that this speechless man 
 had in so short a time received the five sacraments — penance 
 — baptism — confirmation — communion — extreme unction ! 
 
 And then to crown all, he told me in reply to my enquiry, 
 touching what Protestant Church the man had belonged 
 to, that he was a Swiss, one of the soldiers of the Pope's 
 army ! I felt that a poor Swiss mountaineer sent to Home 
 in his youth, as a soldier in the Pope's guard, living all 
 his life at Rome, and at last dying and speechless in a 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 137 
 
 foreign land, and with a foreign tongue — I felt that the 
 scene was scarcely one for my friend to boast of. It was 
 one to awaken sadness of heart and mournful feeling. 
 The narrative however, was one that gave me the opportu- 
 nity of introducing an enquiry, on a subject on which I was 
 anxious to have some information. 
 
 I asked why, on so solemn an occasion as a death-bed, 
 when an immortal soul was about passing into the presence 
 of God — Why did you pray to the Virgin Mary instead of 
 praying to Jesus Christ ? In common with all Protestants 
 I would have prayed to Jesus Christ, or to God through 
 Jesus Christ. 
 
 He answered — that it was their opinion — the opinion 
 too of many of the Fathers, that God hears our prayers more 
 quickly when they are offered through the blessed Virgin, than 
 when offered through any one else. 
 
 I had anticipated this answer, owing to some things pre- 
 viously communicated to me from another person ; and in 
 order to draw him out to an explanation of this doctrine, I 
 merely said that I could not see how it was possible for him 
 to justify such an opinion. 
 
 He replied that there was warrant in Scripture to justify 
 it, for there was in the book of Revelations, a vision in 
 which the elders are described as offering odours, which are 
 said to be the prayers of the Saints ; so that it was clear 
 that the saints offered, prayers for us. 
 
 I reminded him, that "saints" was always the Scrip- 
 ture name of Christians ; not dead but living Christians ; and 
 that " elders," that is " presbyters," describe the ministry 
 of the Church ; and therefore that the vision of the elders 
 offering the prayers of saints, represented the ministry of 
 
138 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 thfe Church offering the prayers of the living Christians. 
 In all this there was nothing to justify his praying to Mary. 
 The vision described the elders oifering the prayers of saints 
 on earth, and did not justify our praying to saints in heaven. 
 And after all, I asked, hov? such a vision could justify his 
 saying the " Hail Mary," at the bed of the dying man, and 
 also justify his statement that God hears the prayers offered 
 through the Virgin Mary, more quickly than those offered to 
 Christ. 
 
 He remained silent. 
 
 I therefore asked, how he supposed those persons whom 
 he regarded as saints in heaven, heard the prayers of men 
 on earth, and how he could justify the practice of pray- 
 ing to them for their intercession, assistance, or anything 
 else ? 
 
 He said that it was not a practice or duty obligatory on 
 them — that it was not enjoined or commanded by the 
 Church, that it was only recommended as good and whole- 
 some, at least it was so recommended by the councU «f 
 Trent. And therefore this belief was not necessary to 
 communion with the Church. 
 
 I replied that this was true in theory, but not in prac- 
 tice ; for by making these prayers to saints part and parcel 
 of the public liturgy of the Church, so that no man could 
 join in her services without joining in these prayers to the 
 saints, she practically compelled the thing. But, I added, 
 since the Council of Trent declared the practice to be good 
 and wholesome, it would be well that some reasons or proofs 
 could be adduced to justify the statement. 
 
 He answered promptly, that the argument from experi- 
 ence was decisive. He then paused for a moment, as if 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 139 
 
 recollecting himself, and then went on to say that it was 
 the experience of good catholics, that when they prayed 
 to the blessed Virgin their prayers were answered. Many 
 and many a time, he said, when a godly mother prayed 
 for her ungodly son, who was wandering in the way of sin 
 and shame — praying that he might be brought back to re- 
 pentance and holiness — when a mother thus prayed to the 
 blessed Virgin for her son, she finds that sooner or later 
 her prayer is answered — that her son is brought back re- 
 pentent and holy ; and connecting this with the blessed 
 Virgin, who was herself a mother and able to sympathize 
 with a mother, she recognizes it as the answer of the Vir- 
 gin to her prayers, and is therefore encouraged to pray to 
 her again. He continued to say, that it was the same in 
 praying to other saints. When praying to them for any 
 particular, object, for recovery from sickness — for deliver- 
 ance from any trouble — for the conversion of a beloved 
 child — or indeed for any object of prayer generally ; when 
 praying thus to a saint for these, it is often found by ex- 
 perience, that the prayer is fulfilled and the object granted, 
 and this experience induces them to pray again and again 
 to the saints. 
 
 I had never heard this argument before, at least in this 
 form, so to prevent all mistake I asked particularly whe- 
 ther his argument was not one simply derived from expe- 
 rience — experience of answer to such prayers. He at once 
 answered in the affirmative, adding that experience proved 
 to be their best encouragement ; and when I remarked that 
 there was no point more liable to be mistaken, than the 
 supposed connection between prayers and events ; and that 
 as it was God who alone could dispose and order events, so 
 
140 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 it was to him alone our prayers shoald be offered, he did 
 not seem to heed or to hear me, but went on with his own 
 argument. 
 
 He said that many persons had been converted through 
 this method of prayer, through prayer to the -blessed 
 Virgin and the saints ; and thus experience of the truth 
 asserted by the Council of Trent, that it was good and 
 wholesome, proved a great encouragement as well as strong 
 argument for it. And the more so, as the feeling of devo- 
 tion to the Virgin has a mysterious something in it, which 
 will ever linger about the heart of the man who has ever 
 felt it. It is one of those feelings which once admitted, can 
 never afterwards be totally obliterated. There it still clings 
 around the heart, and though there may be coldness to all 
 other religious impressions — though there may be Infidelity 
 or even scorn as to all our faith — though there may be the 
 plunging into the wild vortex of every sin, yet still there 
 vfill not unfrequently be found even among the very worst 
 of our people, a lingering feeling of devotion to the blessed 
 Virgin. It is as a little thread that still keeps hold of the 
 soul, and it will yet draw him back. All else may be bro- 
 ken, but this thread, by which the blessed Virgin holds 
 him, still clings to his soul. Even in the most wild, 
 wicked, and desperate men — even among the bandits in 
 their worst state, there is always retained this devotion to 
 Mary ; and when we cannot get at their hearts in any 
 other way — when every other argument or truth or princi- 
 ple or feeling of religion fails to make any impression, we 
 frequently find access opened to their hearts, by this one 
 feeling still lingering about them ; and thus we find by 
 experience that a devotion to the blessed Virgin proves 
 
THF JESUITS AT ROME. 141 
 
 often the means by which we are able to lay hold of their 
 hearts, and win them back to our holy religion. 
 
 I said that I had frequently heard of this devotion to 
 the Virgin, as characteristic of some of the very worst 
 persons in Italy — that after renouncing God, the Father, 
 Son and Spirit — after surrendering every element of Chris- 
 tianity and devotion to Christ, they still sometimes retained 
 this devotion to the Virgin Mary. I said that to my poor 
 judgment such a state of things, instead of being an argu- 
 ment in favour of this devotion to Mary, was really its 
 greatest condemnation. It was as if a life of sin and vice 
 was felt to be inconsistent jrith a devotion to Christ, but at 
 the same time perfectly compatible with a devotion to Mary. 
 It was as if they felt they could not retain both Christ and 
 sin, but that they could retain both Mary and sin. This 
 at least was the apparent reasoning of such persons, and 
 certainly it was the plain matter of fact, as implied by what 
 had just been stated to be the experience of the Church. 
 At all events, I added, it seems to imply that the Virgin 
 Mary is more accessible, more lenient, more loving, to the 
 poor sinner, than Jesus Christ. 
 
 He repeated what he had before said on this point, ex- 
 pressive of the greater leniency, the gentler compassion, 
 and the closer sympathies of Mary ; adding that he was 
 borne out in such an opinion by that of the Fathers, of 
 whom many were of opinion thai even Christ himself was 
 not so willing to hear our prayers, and did not hear them so 
 quickly, when offered simply to himself, as when they were 
 offered through the blessed Virgin. 
 
 I felt that this was a hideous sentiment, and could not for- 
 bear to say so, adding that when such opinions were circu- 
 
142 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 lated by the priesthood, I could no longer feel surprised at 
 the extent — the extravagance to which the devotion to 
 Mary had gone in Rome — that I felt the whole devotional 
 system of the Church of Rome, the prayers unceasingly 
 offered to the Virgin, the innumerable pictures of the Vir- 
 gin, the countless images of the Virgin, the many churches 
 dedicated to the Virgin, the universal devotion rendered to 
 the Virgin, the manner in which all the services and 
 prayers of the Church and people are impregnated with 
 thoughts of the Virgin — the extent to which in conversa- 
 tion all classes went in speaking of the Virgin, all had 
 impressed me with the feeling <that the reUgion of Italy 
 ought to he called the religion of the Virgin Mary, and not 
 the religion of Jesus Christ. 
 
 I added that it was impossible to justify such a state 
 of things. " If," said I, " I enter -the Church of the 
 Augustines, I see there an image of the Virgin Mary as 
 large as life. Some are decorating her with jewels as 
 votive offerings — some are suspending pictures around 
 her as memorials of thankfulness — some are placing money 
 in a box at her feet — some arfe prostrate in profound de- 
 votion before her — some are devoutly kissing her feet 
 and touching them with their foreheads — some are repeat- 
 ing the rosary before her, as if acceptable to her — all 
 turning their backs upon the consecrated Host, turning 
 their backs upon that which the priest is elevating at the 
 High Altar, and which he and they believe to be Jesus 
 Christ himself bodily and visibly among them — turning 
 their backs upon Christ, and turning their faces to Mary, 
 practically forsaking Christ for Mary, with a prostration 
 the most pfofound before her image — a prostration that 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 143 
 
 was never surpassed in the days of heathen Rome, and can 
 never be justified in Christian Rome." 
 
 He said in answer to ail this, that for his own part he 
 would not act thus, and that it was not right to judge of 
 the Church by the devotions of the ignorant. 
 
 My wife then interposed, and said she had witnessed all 
 this, and was shocked at what seemed to her to be a most 
 fearful idolatry, for while the priest was saying mass and 
 elevating the Host at one end of the Church, and some of 
 the people bowing before it, the image of Mary stood at 
 the other end, and some of the people were in precisely 
 the same way bowing before -it. Some preferred what they 
 believed to be Christ ; — others preferred what they regarded 
 as an image of the Virgin. 
 
 He replied with much gentleness that he never prayed 
 to the Virgin of the Augustines — that it was not a sightly, 
 image — that it was really an ugly image, and had never 
 excited his devotion, and in fact he had never prayed be- 
 fore it ; but still he thought it scarcely fair to speak against 
 this devotion to Mary as exhibited by the more ignorant, 
 inasmuch as they had learned its value by experience. 
 Many of those whom we had witnessed there, had no 
 doubt offered many a prayer to her and had found an 
 answer. Many a mother praying for her child had obtained 
 her petition. They were poor people, subject to privations, 
 afilictions, sicknesses, and they found relief and consolation 
 in going to the blessed Virgin. 
 
 He said all this in a manner embarrassed and hesitating, 
 as if feeling he must say something, but as having no con- 
 fidence in his own words; and when, observing this, I 
 reminded him that these poor people ought to have been 
 
14.4! MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 directed to Him who is " the Father of mercies and the 
 God of all consolation," he seemed to feel the truth of it, 
 but was silent. 
 
 After a few words showing the true source of relief and 
 consolation in all our distresses and afflictions, I went on 
 to say that there could be no answer from the Virgin Mary, 
 inasmuch as she could not hear the prayers that were 
 offered to her. I asked — How does the Virgin Mary 
 hear the prayers of men? How do the saints hear our 
 prayers ? 
 
 He looked at me as if he had never thought of the point 
 before, — as if the inquiry had never occurred to him before. 
 He said nothing. 
 
 I therefore proceeded to state clearly the point involved 
 in my question. I said, that as the Godhead from its 
 very nature was omnipresent and omniscient, it was easy to 
 understand God's hearing our prayers, and-knowing our de- 
 votion of heart. He could know our feelings, our wishes, 
 our wants, our sufferings, our prayers. But the Virgin 
 Mary was not omnipresent or omniscient ; — the other 
 saints were not omnipresent or omniscient, and as neither 
 she nor they could read the secret depths of the human 
 heart, so it was not easy to understand how they could 
 hear or know the prayers that were offered to them. It 
 should be recollected that one man prays to the Virgin 
 Mary in London, a second prays to her in China, a third 
 in America, &c. It seems hard to conceive, how she can 
 hear and know the prayers offered thus by different persons 
 in London, in China, in America, &c. It seems difficult 
 to understand, how she or any saint in heaven can know 
 the wishes, the thoughts, the devotion, the prayers of the 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 145 
 
 millions, who are praying to tliem in so many different 
 parts of the world at the same time. If she or they were 
 omnipresent — if omnipresent as the Godhead, all would be 
 easy to conceive, all would be intelligible ; but as they are 
 no more than finite creatures in heaven, this cannot be. I 
 asked therefore — how can Mary — how can any saint in 
 heaven hear the multitude of prayers from the multitude of 
 hearts on earth ? 
 
 He said in reply, that they were spirits ; that they were 
 not like us on earth, but spiritual beings in heaven. He 
 spoke as if the difficulty had never occurred to his mind in 
 its strength before — as if he really thought that, from their 
 not being corporeal but spiritual, everything was easy. 
 
 1 reminded him that their being spirits, embodied or 
 disembodied, did not affect the question, They were finite 
 spirits, and therefore could not pervade the infinite. They 
 were not omnipfesent. They were not omniscient. They 
 were only spirits, and not God, who alone knoweth the 
 heart, and therefore alone knoweth prayer. 
 
 I have seldom seen a man, habituated to controversy, 
 more perplexed than my friend appeared at this question, 
 touching the means by which Mary or the saints could hear 
 and know our prayers. For a moment he seemed disposed 
 to think it might be some privilege in the possession of 
 such spirits, but after some hesitation and acknowledgment 
 of the difficulties the question raised, he threw out, in the 
 way of suggestion, that it might perhaps be that God re- 
 veals it to them — that being in God's presence they learn 
 it from Him. 
 
 I remarked that this was no more than a suggestion — a 
 mere perhaps — a supposed possibility. It was not a settled 
 
 H 
 
146 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 fact on which a system could he hased, and therefore it 
 was wholly inadequate to justify so grave a practice. 
 
 He said at once that he did not just at that moment 
 recollect any other way, in which our prayers or hearts 
 could be known to the blessed Virgin, or the blessed 
 saints. 
 
 I therefore said that his suggestion, though as good as 
 any other of which I had read or heard, defeated the whole 
 object of the practice. The practice of invoking Mary and 
 the other saints, was taught on the principle that men 
 ought not to approach God directly or immediately, but 
 indirectly through these as his favorites, even as we would 
 approach an earthly sovereign through his courtiers.' 
 
 He at once assented to this. 
 
 I therefore added, that if the prayers and aspirations of 
 votaries are not heard or known to the saints until God 
 reveals them to them, — until they learn them through Him, 
 then the prayers and aspirations must first go to God, and 
 afterwards to the saints — must in short go directly and 
 immediately to God, and indirectly and mediately to the 
 saints. This utterly subverts the whole system, which is 
 based upon the opposite idea. It supposes that the prayer 
 first reaches God — that He reveals it to the saint — that 
 the saint then prays it back again to God, presenting to 
 Him the petition of the votary ; and thus according to this 
 system, God is our mediator to the saints, and not the 
 saints our mediators to God. 
 
 He said that they did not regard the saints as mediators 
 of redemption, but only as mediators of intercession, who 
 were to intercede with God for us. 
 
 I replied that I was fully aware of the distinction, but 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 147 
 
 that it rather strengthened my argument ; for as their pro- 
 vince was to present our prayers to God, and to intercede 
 with God to hear and grant our prayers, so it was especially 
 essential to them as intercessors, that they should hear our 
 prayers and know our hearts. " You," I added, " make 
 the Virgin Mary and the saints mediators of prayer. It 
 is necessary therefore that they be able to hear our prayers ; 
 and the only explanation you give is a suggestion which 
 makes God our mediator of prayer to the saints, instead of 
 the saints being mediators of prayer to God." 
 
 He evidently had nothing farther to offer. He saw the 
 difficulty, and after some hesitation, from which I was not 
 disposed to extricate him, being in hopes of having raised a 
 doubt or at least a question in his mind, that might work 
 there hereafter, he said— that at all events the Council of 
 Trent had not commanded the practice. 
 
 To this 1 said, that the point for him and for me to con- 
 sider for our own soul's sake, was not whether the Council 
 of Trent commanded it or not. There could be no question 
 as to the fact, that the thing was practised ; and though it 
 was attempted to justify it, by saying we should approach 
 an earthly sovereign through his courtiers or favorites, and 
 ought in the same way to seek access to the King of hea- 
 ven ; yet, when it is considered that, according to his sys- 
 tem, we must first make our petition known to the king, 
 and then the king must make it known to his courtiers, or 
 favorites ; and then they must tell it back again to the 
 king — when it is considered that his suggestion requires 
 such a parallel as this, it must be felt that it requires no 
 elaborate refutation. 
 
 He seemed to feel the difficulty of his position, and to 
 H 2 
 
148 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 be revolving in his mind how he best could escape it. But 
 although he exhibited a desire to find an ansvrer, as if 
 anxious to gain a controversial victory rather than to attain 
 a truth, I yet felt that the difficulty might, by the blessing 
 of divine grace, give birth to other diiSculties ; and so 
 shaking his confidence in the imagined impregnability of 
 his Church, might lead eventually to farther and fresh 
 enquiry. I could. not expect that anything that I could 
 oifer, especially under the peculiar circumstances and man- 
 ner in vchich I was obliged to state my views, could have 
 any lasting effect on his mind, especially as I could so 
 seldom give expression to my argument as if it were my 
 own deep feeling ; but only as a suggestion, as to what 
 might possibly be the impression on the minds of others. 
 But I also felt much encouragement, for I knew I was 
 acting for the best, and that it was my duty to leave the 
 result, in a spirit of prayer and faith, with Him who orders 
 all things according to the counsels of his own will. In 
 this feeling therefore, when I observed him perfectly per- 
 plexed, I pressed the difficulty in another form. 
 
 I added, that I could not see how the practice could be 
 " good and profitable," inasmuch as it lay on the verge of 
 idolatry. Without saying that it was idolatry in the strict 
 sense of the word, there were many who could scarcely see 
 how they could avoid idolatry, for there was no certainty 
 as to the real sanctity of these saints : there were many 
 enrolled in the canon of saints, of whose title to that pre- 
 eminence there was no great evidence — at all events, no 
 very satisfactory or certain evidence. In short, no man on 
 earth could speak with certainty, as to the persons who are 
 saints in heaven. There were many persons who had no 
 
™E JESUITS AT ROME. 149 
 
 faith in the process of canonization — no confidence in the 
 process of examination before canonization — no assurance 
 of the genuine sanctity of the persons canonized — even 
 more, who beUeved that some of those supposed saints 
 were in a far worse region than heaven ; and thus the 
 praying to them might prove to be praying to devils, in- 
 stead of saints, and so be the very worst species of 
 idolatry. 
 
 He said, that though my objection might hold so far as 
 absolute certainty was required, yet that there was moral 
 certainty as to the sanctity of those who were enrolled or 
 canonized as saints, and he thought that moral certainty 
 was sufficient in such a case — that we might reasonably 
 and safely proceed on moral certainty , but that at all 
 events, men might pray to the Virgin and the Apostles, as 
 there could be no doubt as to their sanctity. 
 
 I replied that this objection did not apply to them, but 
 to St. Dominic, St. Francis, St. Thomas &. Becket, and 
 some others. St. Dominic was remarkable as the most 
 ferocious of persecutors, St. Francis as the inventor of 
 superstitions, and St. Thomas as the disturber of king- 
 doms — that the argument applied to such saints as they ; 
 but that the objection, so far as the Virgin and the Apos- 
 tles were concerned, was that drawn from the impossibility 
 of their hearing the prayers that were offered to them. 
 
 He paused a moment, and then stated that the ancient 
 Fathers of the Church recommended the practice. 
 
 I replied by saying, that it was very true that some of 
 the fathers seemed to recommend the practice, but it was 
 equally true that some others of them as strongly objected 
 against it — that the most diverse and opposite passages 
 
150 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 might be cited from them upon the point, not only from 
 different fathers, but even from the same father, — his writ- 
 ings in one place being the opposite of his opinions recorded 
 in another ; and I proposed at once to produce passage for 
 passage with, him in the library — to produce a passage 
 against the practice, for every one he could produce in its 
 support. And I then suggested that if this could be done, 
 the writings of the fathers ought to be laid aside as contra- 
 dictory, and therefore of no authority on the subject. 
 
 He hesitated in his answer to this, but after a moment 
 replied, that the contradictions were only apparent and not 
 real, and could be easily reconciled. 
 
 I referred at the instant to St. Chrysostora, where he 
 cites the example of the woman of Canaan, not stopping to 
 pray to the Apostles, but going to Christ himself, " God," 
 says Chrysostom, " is always near. If you entreat a man, 
 you must enquire what he is doing and whether he is 
 asleep or at leisure, and perhaps the servant gives no 
 answer. But with God there is nothing of all this. When- 
 ever you go and call on Him, He hears ; with Him there 
 is no want of leisure, no mediator, no servant to keep you 
 off. Mark the wisdom of the woman of Canaan. She 
 does not pray to James. She does not beseech John. She 
 does not fly to Peter ; but she breaks through them all, 
 saying, I want no mediator, but taking repentance as my 
 spokesman, I come to the fountain itself. It was for this 
 He left the heavens, it was for this he became flesh, it was 
 that such as I might have boldness to speak to Himself. 
 I want no mediator. Have mercy upon me." I argued 
 that'this was language against going to the saints, very 
 different from what my friend had employed on this point. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 151 
 
 To this he replied, that he could adduce passages from 
 St, Chrysostom quite as strong in favour of the practice, 
 and that such as I had cited were capable of explanation 
 — that the woman certainly ought not to have gone to- St. 
 Peter, or St. James, for that the Lord himself was present. 
 He was there in the flesh, and she ought to have gone to 
 Him at once, and this was all that was designed by St. 
 Chrysostom. 
 
 I reminded him, that such an explanation might apply 
 to the fact in the gospel-narrative, but that the argument 
 was not on the gospel-narrative, but on the exhortation of 
 St. Chrysostom. He expressly says, in another place, 
 " When we have a petition to make to men, it is often the 
 case that we cannot go straight to themselves, and speak 
 with them : but, it is necessary for us first to procure the 
 favour of their ministers or stewards or officers — but with 
 God it is not thus. There is no need of intercessors of 
 prayer with Him, and He is not so ready to hear our 
 prayers, and answer graciously, when we pray through 
 others, as when we come and pray of ourselves to Him." 
 Now our Lord was not there present, when St. Chrysostom 
 gave this advice to his people, and therefore the explana- 
 tion does not apply — does not touch the real point of the 
 argument, namely, that St. Chrysostom advises us not to 
 go to the saints, but to go directly to Christ himself. 
 
 He avoided this precise point, and went on to say that 
 he could cite places from St. Chrysostom and other fathers 
 that were quite opposite to this ; and though there might 
 thus be the appearance of self-contradiction in their writ- 
 ings, yet they could easily he explained by a comparison 
 with other places, — that apparently contradictory passages 
 
152 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 might be cited in reference to the blessed Trinity — to the 
 Incarnation, &c., that this was partieularly true in reference 
 to the use of images, against which there certainly were 
 very strong passages in some of the fathers, but those 
 passages ought to be explained away, instead of being 
 regarded as contradictory, or opposed to images, for it 
 ought not to be supposed that the fathers were opposed to 
 images ; St. Gregory expressly saying that images might be 
 kept for devotion but not for worship, and Epiphanius and 
 others were equally clear. 
 
 I reminded him, that when Epiphanius saw a veil or 
 curtain in the Church with a picture on it,, he immediately 
 tore it to pieces, and forbade the practice. 
 
 He took no notice of this, but added that in the old 
 liturgies there were prayers to the saints, and as liturgies 
 were the truest tests or evidences of the opinion of the 
 Church, so they proved beyond answer the practice of the 
 primitive Churches. 
 
 I said, in reply to this, that I was under the opposite 
 impression — that I had seen tliose liturgies, those that go 
 by the names of Basil, Nazienzen, Chrysostom and others ; 
 and never saw prayers to the saints ; that there were ex- 
 press prayers for the Virgin Mary, and the Apostles, and 
 the saints, but not prayers to them : — that so far as my 
 reading went, it appeared to me that in the ancient liturgies 
 generally the prayers were for the saints, and in the 
 modern liturgies of Eome, the prayers were to them ; 
 and that this was a plain difference, and one that at all 
 events took away the cogency of what he had stated in 
 reference to the liturgies, and the practice of the primitive 
 churches. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 153 
 
 He denied this in a manner that, as it struck me, shewed 
 he either had never before heard my statement, or had at 
 least never examined the subject with much care ; and he 
 seemed to regard his own statement as so certain, as to be 
 beyond contradiction ; so he turned the subject, and revert- 
 ing to the former point, said that the practice of praying 
 to the Virgin Mary was found to be a holy practice-^a 
 practice greatly tending to promote holiness in those that 
 cultivate it. " When," he said warmly, " we think of the 
 purity and the holiness of the Virgin — when we think of 
 her as selected by God to bear his Son in her womb — when 
 we think of her as the purest and holiest of creatures — 
 the very thought of one so pure and holy, will dissipate every 
 thought of impurity and unholiness — the very thought of 
 one so sinless, will take away every thought of sin. A de- 
 votion to the blessed Virgin prevents from sinning, and a 
 sincere devotion to her is a great safeguard against sin." 
 
 Such a sentiment as this could scarcely be heard un- 
 moved, by any one who loved the Gospel and cherished a 
 feeling for the glory of the Saviour. It was substituting 
 Mary for Christ — substituting the thought and recollection 
 of Mary for the thought and recollection of Christ — sub- 
 stituting the notion of her purity for the reality of his 
 purity, and substituting some fanciful ideas respecting her, 
 for the remembrance of his death and sacrifice and atone- 
 ment, as a safe-guard against sin. It was a diificulty with 
 which I had often to struggle, in endeavouring to repress 
 the strong and warm expression of my real feelings on such 
 occasions of blasphemy ; for I could scarcely think other- 
 wise of the sentiment. But I was, considering the natural 
 warmth of my nature, greatly restrained and preserved 
 H 5 
 
154 MORNINGS AJIONG 
 
 from shewing a decision of feeling, which might have com- 
 pelled my retirement from Rome. 
 
 I therefore merely asked him, though with all the ear- 
 nestness which I felt, whether if attending the hed of a 
 dying man, he would feel himself justified in speaking to 
 an immortal soul, when about to pass into eternity, and 
 desiring him to fly to Mary — that in all his doubts and 
 perplexities he was to look to Mary — that in all his fears 
 and terrors he was to look to Mary : — I asked whether, con- 
 sidering his responsibility at such a moment, he would 
 address a dying man in language that pointed only to the 
 Virgin Mary and made no mention of Jesus Christ? I 
 then read the following words from the Roman Breviary. 
 " If the winds of temptation arise, if thou run upon the 
 rocks of tribulation, look to the star, call upon Mary. If 
 thou art tossed upon the waves of pride, of ambition, of 
 detraction, of envy, look to the star, call upon Mary. If 
 anger, or avarice, or the temptations of the flesh, toss the 
 bark of thy mind, look to Mary. If, disturbed with the 
 greatness of thy sins, troubled at the defilement of thy 
 conscience, afirighted at the horrors of the judgment, thou 
 beginnest to be swallowed up in the gulf of sadness^ the 
 abyss of despair, think upon Mary — in dangers, in difficul- 
 ties, in doubts, think upon Mary, invoke Mary. Let her 
 liOt depart from thy mouth, let her not depart from thy 
 heart, &c." I asked him solemnly, whether he would use 
 such language, even though sanctioned by his Breviary, in 
 preparing a dying man for the presence of God in the 
 eternal world. / 
 
 He replied unhesitatingly that he would, and then went 
 on to argue that experience justified him — that experience 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 155 
 
 proved that the prayers offered to the Virgin were heard 
 and answered — that mothers praying to her who was her- 
 self a mother, with all the sympathies of a mother, were 
 heard and answered — that such prayers for children in sin, 
 or in danger, or in sickness, were heard and answered ; 
 and it was this practical experience that proved the great 
 encouragement to the devotion of ourselves to the Virgin 
 Mary. He then went on to say that a Catholic devotion 
 to the blessed Virgin, never interfered with a right devotion 
 to Jesus Christ, but redounded rather to his glory; but, 
 that it required a Catholic heart to see and understand 
 this, — that one who was not a Catholic could not under- 
 stand it, — that the ignorant often perverted it, going on in 
 sin, under the belief, that by praying to her she will pardon 
 them, — that all this was only the abuse of the system — 
 that the devotion to Mary was a holy devotion, and a 
 source of holiness. If we think of one so pure, so chaste, 
 so holy, the thought will keep us from sin. St. Alphonso 
 de Liguori was a proof of this, so devoted to the blessed 
 Virgin, and so holy in his life. The order of the Jesuits 
 was another illustration. Their devotion to the blessed 
 Virgin is known through the whole world ; and as for their 
 holiness, they have been accused of ambition, of intrigue, 
 of politics, of opposing sovereigns and disturbing the peace 
 of kingdoms, but no one has ever charged them with 
 impurity or immorality, They are a living proof that de- 
 votion to the blessed Virgin is conducive to holiness. But, 
 he added, it requires a Catholic heart to comprehend this. 
 To others it may seem dishonouring to Jesus Christ, yet it 
 is not so. The Holy Virgin is never honoured above Christ, 
 nor as equal to Christ, but only as His mother, who has a 
 
166 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 mother's influence over Him ; and thus all the homage and 
 worship paid to her, is really a homage and a worship to 
 Him, inasmuch as it is only as His mother that it is offered 
 to her. 
 
 He ran on in this way for some time, and I feared to 
 interrupt him hy any attempt at opposing or confuting 
 him. It would have given me the appearance of an oppo- 
 nent rather than a listener ; and when I considered the sta- 
 tion and influence of the person with whom I was convers- 
 , ing, I felt particularly anxious not to awaken suspicion, hy 
 appearing otherwise than as an inquiring listener. 
 
 I therefore said, that I was acquainted with some of the 
 works of the St. Alphonso de Liguori whom he mentioned. 
 — that among other things in his " Glories of Mary," is 
 the vision of the two ladders extending from earth to hea- 
 ven — that at the top of one is the Virgin Mary, and at the 
 top of the other is Jesus Christ ; — that all who attempted 
 to enter heaven hy the ladder of Jesus Christ fell back and 
 failed, while all who tried the ladder of the Virgin Mary 
 succeeded by her assistance. I mentioned this, as I had 
 already done in conversation with another priest, and I 
 asked whether such language did not exalt the Virgin 
 Mary, not only as equal, but as superior to Jesus Christ — 
 superior in the love and compassion and mercy of a Saviour, 
 as if she was a safer reliance than Jesus Christ ? 
 
 He seemed thoroughly vexed and ashamed at this quo- 
 tation from an author and saint whom he had so highly 
 praised. He hesitated and seemed perplexed for a satis- 
 factory answer ; but at length said, that such language 
 was intended by Liguori, merely to express the love of 
 Mary, and to shew how willingly and how effectually she 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. J 57 
 
 uses her influence as a mother, in behalf of those devoted 
 to her. He then added, that it was the opinion of many 
 of the fathers and saints, that God hears more quickly the 
 prayers that are offered through the blessed Virgin — that 
 so greatly is she in the love of God, and so great is her 
 influence with God, that the prayers offered though her 
 ascend to heaven more quickly, and are heard and answered 
 more speedily and effectually than otherwise ; and this was 
 probably the meaning of Liguori in the details of the two 
 ladders from St. Bernard — that many sinners are troubled 
 with fears on account of their sins — that surely we all 
 must at times he in fear on account of our many sins — that 
 many such fearful or timid sinners come to Mary instead 
 of Jesus. They feel that she is so merciful, so loving, 
 so willing to save them, that they come to her instead of 
 coming to him — that when they think of Jesus Christ they 
 are afraid. 
 
 " Afraid of Jesus ! " I exclaimed involuntarily, startled 
 at the idea of Jesus being less attractive, less loving, less 
 merciful than Mary. " Afraid of Jesus, who died for 
 them — who shewed his love in dying for them, and yet not 
 afraid of Mary, who never professed or shewed any love 
 for them ! " 
 
 He immediately checked himself, and looked suspiciously 
 and enquiringly at me. 
 
 I feared I had shewn my feeling too plainly, and there- 
 fore in the hope of turning the subject, asked him to ex; 
 plain the vision of the two ladders on his principles. 
 
 He said expressively, that he had already explained the 
 doctrine of the Church — that as our Lord on the cross 
 desired John to behold his mother, and that disciple 
 
158 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 obeyed and took her to his own home, so he was a type, of 
 the Church, which is in Uke manner ever to look on Mary 
 as its mother ; and therefore the Church respects her, 
 loves her, serves her, and venerates her as its mother, to 
 whom as a child, she comes for comfort, consolation, grace 
 and assistance in every time of need. 
 
 I replied, that our Lord on the cross desired the Virgin 
 Mary to look on the beloved disciple John, as if he were 
 her son, instead of Him now dying on the cross : and then 
 desired the beloved disciple John to look on Mary, now 
 bereaved and desolate, as if she were his own mother, and 
 to take care of her as such. And the narrative states, that 
 John acting on this, took Mary to his own home, and thus 
 complied with the dying wishes of Jesus Christ. " But," 
 1 added, " how does this prove the moral of the two lad- 
 ders, and of those seeking heaven through Mary, succeeding 
 and being saved, while those seeking heaven through Jesus 
 Christ, fail in the effort ? " 
 
 He replied that he was unwilling to argue further — that 
 he had stated the doctrine of the Church — that that doc- 
 trine in honouring Mary, was not dishonouring to Christ 
 — that it was a subject on which, as on that of Images and 
 Pictures, there was much that was misunderstood," and that 
 it required " a Catholic heart" to understand it rightly. 
 
 He thus broke off the conversation. 
 
 NOTE. 
 
 The statements and arguments of my reverend opponent 
 respecting the worship or invocation of the Virgin Mary 
 are remarkable. I endeavoured to give them correctly 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 159 
 
 and faithfully. But I did not anticipate that the correct- 
 ness and fidelity of my narrative should have received so 
 strong and satisfactory a confirmation as they have found at 
 the hands of my opponents in England. They repeat and 
 proclaim, in the Rambler, as " the Catholic Belief," the 
 very same sentiments which my narrative ascribes to the 
 Jesuit at Rome, 
 
 Their statement as to th«ir views — containing all they 
 have written applicable to this subject — is as follows : 
 
 "We can, however, linger no more over' our author and his 
 work, except so long as to refer briefly to one passage, in which, 
 in a strangely distorted way, he repeats a Catholic doctrine 
 which, we believe, even when it is^not misrepresented, is a 
 source of great amazement to the more candid classes of Pro- 
 testants. He speaks thus of a Catholic priest, who by the way, 
 by the sleight of hand which is the secret of all Mr. Seymour's 
 feats, he leads the reader to suppose" to have been a Jesuit. 'He 
 repeated,' says Mr. Seymour, ' what he had said before on this 
 point expressive of the greater leniency, the gentler compas- 
 sion, and the closer sympathies of Mary ; adding that he was 
 borne out in such an opinion by that of the Fathers, of whom 
 many were of opinion that even Christ himself was not so will- 
 ing to hear our prayers, and did not hear them so quickly, when 
 offered simply to Himself, as when they were offered through 
 the Blessed Virgin.' This abominable calumny our author 
 makes still more spicy by the heading of his chapter, in which 
 we read ' Prayer through Mary heard sooner than through 
 Christ.' 
 
 " Now, whatever this good priest did say to Mi\ Seymour, we 
 are quite willing to believe that Mr. Seymour did not in the 
 least- understand him; and therefore we acquit him of any 
 invention of a pure unmixed falsehood. The doctrine of inter- 
 cession is practically as strange to our author as invocation of 
 saints itself. Therefore, when he contrasts antithetically prayer 
 through Mary, with prayer through Christ, he doubtless believes 
 that these two phrases, if ever thus used by Catholics, are 
 
160 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 really usei in the same sense. If he were in the daily habit of 
 asking and rejoicing in the prayers of living fellow-Christians, 
 and of the saints in glory, as Catholics are, he would have 
 known that the Catholic Church accounts it a damnable heresy 
 to pray ' through Mary,' or any other saint, in the same sense 
 as we pray ' through Christ.' And there does not exist a Catho- 
 lic priest in the world who would not say the same to Mr. Sey- 
 mour if he were to put the question to him. 
 
 " What, then, was the doctrine which this nameless priest 
 doubtless did express, and what is the Catholic belief on this 
 subject? We have very little more space to spare for Mr. Sey- 
 mour; but a few words will shew, that if we once admit the 
 true divinity of our blessed Lord, and the efficacy of interces- 
 sion, with invocation, at all, this doctrine, which so startles the 
 candid Protestant, is undeniably true. For if, in the first place, 
 the intercessory prayer of a Christian, whether he be on earth 
 or in glory, be of any real power in drawing down the grace of 
 God upon us, surely we are more likely to be heard, and attain 
 greater blessings, when this intercession is added to our own 
 prayers, than when we simply pray for ourselves. If words have 
 any meaning, and intercessory prayer is not altogether a delu- 
 sion and a pious fraud, this must be the case. And what is true 
 of the virtue of intercession in the case of ordinary saints, is of 
 course especially true in the case of the Mother of Jesus Christ 
 himself. 
 
 " Again, in one sense the blessed Virgin Mary is more sure 
 to hear our prayers than our blessed Lord. To suppose that 
 her tenderness, her love, her compassion, are equal to his, or 
 that they can even be compared with his, is most awful blas- 
 phemy. She is but a creature, though the first of creatures ; 
 while He is the Almighty God, eternal and infinite. His love 
 and compassion for sinners are therefore as boundless as all his 
 other attributes. No created thought can comprehend them in 
 their immeasurable glory and extent: even to Mary herself 
 they are, in their unfathomable greatness, utterly incomprehen- 
 sible, and the object of her eternal adoration and love. But, at 
 the same time, let it not "e forgot en that Jesus is God, in all 
 things, as well as in love for the sinner. In becoming the sin- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 161 
 
 ner's Saviour, He does not cease to be his God, or absolutely 
 merge his infinite justice and holiness in tJliat unmixed benevo- 
 lence which is the one idea that infidels entertain of the Crea- 
 tor of the universe. Though He does not shew to men and 
 angels the full terrors of his justice and holiness, as judge of all, 
 until the last dreadful day, still not for an instant does He 
 cease to exercise judgment upon the children of both Church 
 and world. 
 
 "To the saints in heaven, and to his own beloved Mother, 
 He has not, however, committed the charge of rendering justice 
 to those who are still upon earth, in the same way in which He 
 exercises it Himself; just as He has not given it to us to exer- 
 cise over one another while we yet live here below. 'Revenge 
 is for me ; / will repay : saith the Lord.' It is the privilege of 
 Mary to share the loving-kindness of her Son towards sinners, 
 and not to execute his wrath upon them. And therefore she is 
 all mercy, while he is both mercy and justice. Her mercy, 
 indeed, is but the mercy of a creature, while his is that of the 
 omnipotent God ; her love is that of an intercessor, his is the 
 love of a Redeemer ; but nevertheless, the only office she is 
 commissioned to fulfil towards us is one of pity. And thus, in 
 one sense, a sinner's prayers are more sure of being heard by 
 her than by her Son. She is not called to judge him; she 
 simply knows that he is in misery, and that he asks. her to pray 
 for him ; and this is enough. Her whole soul overflows with 
 love. ' My son,' she says, ' I am not thy judge, as I am not 
 thy Saviour. Whosoever thou art, and whatsoever thy guilt, 
 it is for me to pray for thee to Him who owns me for his 
 mother.' 
 
 ' " And, in truth, how does this differ from our conduct one to 
 another here upon earth? What have we to do to judge the 
 sinner who calls upon us to intercede for him with our God? 
 It is not for us to institute an inquiry into his past life, and be- 
 cause of the enormity of his conduct refuse him our prayers. 
 What if Mr. Seymour himself were one day to come to some 
 Catholic, repenting of his enmity against the Church, and say, 
 ' My eyes are opened : I see what awful sin I have been guilty 
 of: I have spoken falsehoods against my brother;! have 
 
162 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 mocked at the Church of Christ ; I have maligned his ministers ; 
 I have insulted his Mother ; I have derided his own adorable 
 presence; pray for me, for my guilt is great, and though I cry 
 to God for mercy, I may perhaps be still deceiving myself, or 
 have sinned beyond hope of forgiveness.' Should such be his 
 entreaty — and vpe know that to God nothing is impossible — 
 would it be for one of us to reply, ' No it cannot be; you have 
 clearly sinned against the Holy Ghost ; you have shut your 
 eyes wilfully against the light ; the hour of mercy is past, and 
 {he moment of judgment come : I cannot forget your blas- 
 ' phemies, your irreverences, your dishonest dealings with both 
 God and man ; and I will not pray for you,' Who does not see 
 that such a rejection of the poor penitent's prayer would be 
 shocking in any living Catholic ? Such as our pity and com- 
 passion are, we must be all pity and compassion to him. God 
 alone must be his judge, though that God is also the only Sa- 
 viour of sinners." 
 
 I am altogether uuable to divine the object of the writer 
 in all this, admitting, as he does, all that I desired to con- 
 vey ; nor can I well understand how my opponents in Eng- 
 land, after communicating with my opponents in Rome ; 
 were unable to offer anything more consistent in the way of 
 reply. How stands the case between us ? 
 - The Jesuit at Rome said — " It was the opinion of many 
 of the Fathers that God hears our prayers more quickly, 
 when they are offered through the Blessed Virgin, than 
 when offered through any one else." 
 
 This Jesuit, afterwards endeavouring to justify his own 
 opinion by the authority of the Fathers, again said — " He 
 was borne out in such an opinion by that of the Fathers, of 
 whom many were of opinion that even Christ himself was 
 not so willing to hear our prayers, and did not hear them 
 so quickly when offered simply to himself, as when they 
 were offered through the Blessed Virgin." 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 163 
 
 Thus my opponent, in order to strengthen his own views 
 by the authority of the Fathers, attributed to them this 
 extraordinary statement. I at once denounced it as "a 
 hideous sentiment ; " and my reviewers add, as above, that 
 it is an " abominable calumny ; " a judgment to which I do 
 most fully assent, feeling that this Jesuit did most untruly 
 and unwarrantably calumniate the Fathers, when he attri- 
 buted to them so unhallowed a sentiment. 
 
 But that which perplexes me in this article of the re- 
 viewers, even more than this, is that when this sentiment 
 is ascribed to the Fathers, it is denounced as an " abomi- 
 nable calumny : " but when, in the very same page, this 
 identical sentiment is more fully developed, it is not only 
 not rejected, or denied, or refuted, but actually is adopted 
 and enunciated by the reviewers, and proclaimed as " the 
 Catholic belief." They say — 
 
 " What then was the doctrine .which this nameless priest 
 doubtless did express, and what is this Catholic belief on 
 
 this subject? Sm-ely we are more likely to be heard, and 
 
 attain greater blessings, when this intercession is added to our own 
 prayers than when we simply pray for ourselves. If words have 
 any meaning, and intercessory prayer is not altogether a delu- 
 sion and a pious fraud, this must be the case. And what is true 
 of the virtue of intercession in the case of ordinary saints, is of 
 course especially true in the case of the Mother of Jesus Christ 
 himself." 
 
 Again the reviewers add — 
 
 " In one sense the Blessed Virgin Mary is more sure to hear 
 our prayers than our Blessed Lord. ... It is the privilege of Mary 
 to share the loving-kindness of her Son towards sinners, and 
 not to execute his wrath upon them. And therefore she is all 
 mercy, while He is both mercy and justice, Her mercy in- 
 deed is but the mercy of a creature, while His is that of the 
 Omnipotent God: her love is that of an intercessor, His the 
 
164 MORXINGS AMONG 
 
 love of a Redeemer; but nevertheless the only office she is 
 commissioned to fulfil towards us is one of pity, and thus, in 
 one sense, a sinner's prayers are more sure to be heard by her 
 than by her Son." 
 
 It will at once be perceived that all this is no reply to 
 any statement of mine ; but that on the other hand, it is the 
 very same sentiment with that expressed by my opponents 
 at Rome. The words may be different, but the sense is 
 the same. The process of reasoning may be varied, but 
 the result arrived at is identical, namely, that if the sinner 
 prays through the Virgin Mary, he is more likely to be heard 
 by God, than if he simply prays through Jesus Christ. The 
 only real difference I can discern is, that my opponent at 
 Rome attributed this opinion to the Fathers, while my op- 
 ponents in England announce it as " the Catholic beUef." 
 I did not anticipate so explicit an avowal of the doctrine in 
 this country. 
 
 There are some doctrines so utterly unscriptural, and so 
 revolting to a Christian spirit, that they need only be stated. 
 It were a waste of words to answer them ; it were like 
 breaking a fly upon the wheel to confute them, I shall 
 therefore, as some allusions to passages in Alphonso de 
 Liguori were made in this conversation, simply adduce those 
 passages, and leave thern without comment. I refer to 
 his work entitled, " The Glories of Mary." 
 
 " We read in the Chronicles of St. Francis, that Brother Leo 
 once saw in a vision two ladders : one red, at the summit of 
 ■which was Jesus Christ ; and the other white, at the top of 
 which presided his blessed mother. He observed that many 
 who endeavoured to ascend the first ladder, after mounting a 
 few steps, fell down, and on trying again were equally unsuccess- 
 ful, so that they never attained the summit ; but a voice having 
 told tliem to make trial of the white ladder, they soon gained the 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 165 
 
 top, the blessed Virgin having held forth her hands to help 
 them." Ch.8, sec. 3. 
 
 Again — 
 
 " St. Bernandine of Sienna does not fear to say that all things, 
 even God himself, are subject to Mary's empire. The saint 
 means to intimate thereby that God hears Mary's prayers, as 
 if they were, commands. The Lord, says St. Anselm, has so 
 exalted thee, Mary, that his favour has rendered thee omnipo- 
 tent. Yes, adds St. Lawrence, Mary is omnipotent, for according 
 to all laws, the Queen enjoys the same privileges as the King ; 
 and that power may be equal between the Son and the Mother, 
 Jesus has rendered Mai'y omnipotent, — the one is omnipotent by 
 nature, the other is omnipotent by grace." Ch. 6, sec. 1. 
 
 Again— 
 
 " What do the Fathers — the Doctors of the Church teach us 
 by texts so strong and so precise? Do they intend to prove 
 that all graces come to us through Mary in this sense only, that 
 she has given us the author of grace, as our adversary would 
 fain persuade us? Far from it: they on the contrary, give us 
 clearly to understand, that every grace given to man, in virtue 
 of the merits of Jesus Christ, is conveyed to him by the hands 
 of Mary. This is the conclusion of the venerable Suarez of the 
 Society of Jesus. He writes that it is now the general sentiment 
 of the Church, that the intercession of the Mother of God is 
 not only useful, but even necessary to salvation, for the Lord, 
 says St. Bernard, wishes to grant us nothing, without the 
 
 agency of Mary St. Peter Damien goes still farther, asking 
 
 himself the question. Why has God, before he became incar- 
 nate in Mary's womb, applied for her consent? For two reasons, 
 be replies ; first, to oblige us to be very grateful to her ; and, 
 secondly to teach us that our salvation depends on the will of the 
 Blessed Virgin." Ch. 5, sec. 1. 
 
 I leave these extracts without comment. Their author 
 was one of the three saints last canonized ; and of his 
 works it is stated in the Act of Canonization, that there is in 
 them nothing contrary to the Catholic faith. Such are the 
 
166 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 doctrines held and sanctioned at Rome, and from these ex- 
 tracts it may be seen that the Jesuit Priests, with whom I 
 held my conversation, did not express themselves out of 
 the ordinary course ; while at the same time, the language 
 of these reviewers shews that such doctrines are not with- 
 out their votaries even in England ; — that they are regarded 
 as consistent with " the Catholic belief." 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. J 67 
 
 CHAPTER VI. 
 
 OBJECTIONS TO THE CHURCH OP ENGLAND — ALLEGED DANGER TO SAL- 
 VATION IN REMAINING IN A CHURCH SO NEW IN HER ORIGINAL — 
 HER. CONTRAST IN THAT RESPECT WITH THE CHURCH OF ROME— 
 WHETHER SHE ORIGINATED WITH THE MONK AUGUSTINE PROM 
 ROME — OR WAS POUNDED AT THE REPORMATION — WHETHER HER 
 REFORMS WERE ARBITRARY OR ON FIXED RULE— WHETHER HER 
 DOCTRINES BE ANCIENT OR MODERN — WHETHER HER DOCTRINES BE 
 ADMITTED BY THE CHURCH OP ROME — COMPARATIVE SAFETY OP THE 
 MEMBERS OF THE TWO CHURCHES — WHETHER THE CHURCH OF 
 ENGLAND BE A BKANCH OP THE CATHOLIC CHURCH — WHETHER HER 
 REFORMS BE JUSTIFIED — WHETHER SHE OR THE CHURCH OP ROME 
 WERE GUILTY OF SCHISM AT THE REFORMATION. 
 
 There were some conversations with my interesting friends 
 that greatly perplexed and troubled me. The subject under 
 discussion was at times so deeply interesting and absorb- 
 ing to myself personally, that I could scarcely expect to 
 succeed in so restrair^ing myself and concealing my feehngs 
 as to appear in the light of one who was calmly stating 
 his objections to communion with the Church of Rome, 
 and seeking for information. So long as our conversations 
 had reference only to my objections to the Church of Rome, 
 and so long as they merely exhibited or developed the 
 peculiar system of religious ideas prevalent at Rome, I was 
 
168 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 able, without much difficulty, to appear as a quiet listener 
 and calm enquirer. But when they left the exhibition and 
 defence of their own Church, and made their attack upon 
 the Church of England, I felt conscious of being placed in 
 a position totally different. I was then placed on the de- 
 fensive ; and though I felt very confident that I should be 
 able to vindicate the Church of England, yet I was con- 
 scious of a nervous eagerness and a personal earnestness 
 that might at times lead me into the display of the spirit 
 of controversy. Those Christian persons, who have had 
 any experience of the bitter waters of controversy, will 
 understand my difficulties. They were many and great, 
 and conscious as I am of my many failings under them, I 
 have only to bow my head and confess that I have been 
 dealt with more mercifully and lovingly than I deserved or 
 expected. 
 
 It was peculiarly thus when one of my reverend, friends, 
 who had already been with me and discussed several sub- 
 jects, called on me. We conversed for some time on the 
 celibacy of the clergy as enjoined in the Church of Rome. 
 Our arguments were too long to' insert here ; and the sub- 
 ject was changed by my friend's suddenly pausing and seem- 
 ing desirous of entering on some other topic then occupying 
 his mind. He turned round, and, as if he had not heard 
 what 1 had last said, asked me in the most confiding and 
 winning way, to tell him candidly and confidentially whe- 
 ther since our last interview I had not found myself in- 
 clining more to the Catholic Church — whether I had made 
 any way in that direction — whether from all I had now 
 seen and heard, I had not felt more inclined to the Catho- 
 lic Church. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 169 
 
 This question was so proposed that I could not escape it 
 otherwise than hy bringing him back to my own question as 
 to celibacy and marriage, which we had been discussing ; 
 and this might seem too much like the spirit, of a contro- 
 versialist ; so I thought it best to let it pass for the present, 
 to be revived on some other opportunity, and proceeded to 
 reply to his enquiry. 
 
 I said, with as much deliberation as I could command, 
 that I would not practise any deception with him on such 
 a subject; — that for many years my religious opinions had 
 been formed, and my theological j\idgment settled — that 
 thoseopinions and that judgment had been altogether against 
 the Church of Rome — and that, as they were strongly felt, 
 so were they strongly expressed by me on all public oc- 
 casions. But, I added, that I never had seen the sys- 
 tem as fully developed in its working in a land altogether 
 under the influence and power of the Church of Rome, and 
 that I always desired to see and examine its effects, its na- 
 ture, its fruits, its developments, in the seat and fountain of 
 all — the city of Rome ; — that the object of my then visit to 
 that city, was to inform myself in this matter, not by books 
 and reports of others, but by my own personal observation 
 — -that if I knew myself, I was prepared to abandon any 
 and every opinion I had previously formed, the moment 
 sufficient evidence called on me to do so — that the results 
 hitherto were that some opinions were changed, some pre- 
 judices removed, and some judgments modified ; but that, 
 on the whole, owing to what I had myself seen and heard 
 on the spot, my former convictions were not only confirmed, 
 but were carried yet further against the Church of Rome ; 
 — that whether arising from my English notions, or my 
 
 I 
 
170 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Protestant prejudices, which he must kindly forgive, the 
 scenes which I had myself witnessed with my own eyes, 
 left on my own mind an impression more unfavorahle than 
 ever to his Church. 
 
 He gently and courteously expressed his regret at this, 
 hut added, that he was not surprised at it — for that he was 
 prepared ; and that I too ought to be prepared to find 
 many and great prejudices to contend with : but, he said, 
 it was only right that I should inform him fully as to what 
 those things were which formed my difficulties, and which 
 seemed to have so influential an effect on my mind — that 
 he perhaps might be able to remove them or modify them ; 
 for, he continued, it may be that they do not belong to the 
 essence of the Catholic Church, being only accessories — 
 matters on which conformity may not be necessary — mere 
 accessories, which ought not to have this influence on my 
 mind. 
 
 To this appeal I was on the point of answering, when he 
 stopped me by going on to say, that he looked on many 
 points as not merely accessories, but as inferior in import- 
 ance, as undeserving of and disentitled to much considera- 
 tion ; the great and chief question to be considered being, 
 whether the Catholic Church or Protestant Church — the 
 Catholic Church of Rome, or the Protestant Church of 
 England, was the true Church of Christ, out of which there 
 could be no salvation. This, he said, was the grand point 
 for me to examine, as all the others were involved in it. 
 And it was for me to determine whether I could continue 
 in my present position with safety to my soul. You are to 
 consider, he continued with much animation, that the 
 Church of Rome has all antiquity on her side, having been 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 1 7l 
 
 a Church from the beginning, and that it has been from 
 her that you have received your religion — your mission — 
 your orders, through St. Augustine, who was sent from 
 Rome, and first planted the Church of Christ among you. 
 You are to consider that she has all holiness on her side, 
 for all the Fathers and all the Saints are with her ; and, 
 as for learning, she has had the most profound men of all 
 kinds of learning — ^that she has all unity in herself, all her 
 parts and members thinking the same thing, adopting the 
 same rule, and all united and governed by Him, who is the 
 centre of all unity — the successor of St. Peter — that she is 
 the Universal Church, extending over all the nations of the 
 world, having millions of children in every nation and every 
 country on the face of the earth — that she alone has re- 
 ceived the promise of our Lord that he would be with his 
 Church through all ages, even to the end of the world ; 
 for it was true of only her, that she had overcome all oppo- 
 sition, and had survived all vicissitudes. You are to con- 
 sider, he said, with increased vivacity, all this on one hand, 
 and you are then to consider on the other', that the Church 
 of England — a Church only created a few centuries ago — a 
 Church that is but the offspring of the worst passions of 
 man — a Church that has ever been the mere servant and 
 slave of power — a Church that has been ever varying and 
 ever divided, so as to look like anything rather than the 
 Church at unity with itself — you are to consider whether 
 this Church of England be indeed the Church of Christ — 
 the Church founded by Christ himself — the Church founded 
 eighteen centuries ago — and you are to consider and deter- 
 mine this before you enter on the examination of any other 
 question, because all depends upon the solution of this. 
 I 2 
 
172 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 And if this enquiry be made, he added with warmth, he 
 could no longer doubt the resnlts, for it would be but de- 
 ciding between a Church eighteen centuries old and a Church 
 only three centuries old — between a Church in a state of 
 the most perfect unity, and a Church divided and distracted 
 — between a Church connected with the Head and Centre 
 of unity, and a Church as a branch broken off and withered 
 from the apostolic tree — between a Church, all whose doc- 
 trines were ancient, and of universal reception, and a Church 
 whose whole system is a novelty, and which is received 
 only by a few. And the comparison being thus made, 
 there could be anticipated but one result ; but this result 
 must be first determined, before so much as entering on 
 the examination of any other question. 
 
 My friend continued in this strain for some time, express- 
 ing himself with great eloquence. There was not for many 
 minutes the least cessation on his part, nor interruption on 
 mine. And though I have to regret the impossibility of 
 my detailing every word that fell from him, yet its sub- 
 stance was the foregoing, as committed to paper by me at 
 the time. I remained throughout an attentive listener to 
 arguments which I had heard a thousand times before re- 
 peated, and held myself prepared to answer, the moment 
 he might conclude. When he had ceased, which he did 
 with an air of conscious triumph, and looked for the effect 
 of his argument, I at once commenced my reply, avoiding 
 by my tone and manner, the appearance of a controver- 
 sialist. 
 
 I stilted, that in England we were in the habit of looking 
 on the origin or antiquity of the English Church in a light 
 very different from that in which it appeared in his eyes — 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 173 
 
 that we always held that there had been a Church in Bri- 
 tain in the time of the Romans, long previous to the arrival 
 of Augustine, and 
 
 " No, no," he exclaimed in a rather triumphant tone, 
 " there never was a Church there until St. Augustine came 
 from Rome, and preached religion and founded the Church 
 there." 
 
 I said very gently that I could not but fear he was under 
 a slight mistake ; for that Augustine came to England at 
 the close of the sixth century, about A. D. 595 : that he 
 found Bertha the queen of Kent already a Christian, with 
 a Christian Church and a Christian chaplain : that though 
 heathenism prevailed among the Saxon population, yet he 
 found among the Ancient Britons, in the west of England, 
 a Church with many presbyters and bishops, and that 
 Christianity had been preached and received there some 
 centuries before the time of -Augustine, almost from the 
 days of the Apostles, and certainly in the time of the 
 Romans. 
 
 " O yes," he said, interrupting me, " perhaps there was 
 a Church in the time of the Romans, but then it came from 
 Lucius — it came from the Catholic Church of Rome." 
 
 I replied that my present argument did not concern 
 itself with the quarter from whence it came — that I would 
 deal with that afterwards — that in England, where the best 
 evidences were to be found as touching the history of her 
 Clfurch, it was universally felt, because clearly proved, that 
 there was a Church in Britain at a very early age — founded 
 perhaps by the Apostle Paul, as some of the primitive Fa- 
 thers state ; that that Church in the times of the Romans 
 was fearfully persecuted, especially in the times of the 
 
174 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Diocletian persecution, its temples destroyed, and its mem- 
 bers martyred : that having afterwards widely spread itself 
 again, it v/as again wasted and destroyed by the Saxon 
 invasion, its bishops and presbyters and multitudes of 
 votaries escaping to the West ; so that when Augustine 
 arrived he found the Saxon population in the worst hea- 
 thenism, while he also found in the West a large popu- 
 lation of Christians. He proposed to them to submit to 
 the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome. They refused, on 
 the grounds that they had Bishops of their own, and said 
 thej' owed love, but not obedience, to the Bishop of Rome. 
 Augustine thus found a British Church already esta- 
 blished before his arrival, an ancient and independent 
 Church. But after some years, he and his successors suc- 
 ceeded, by the weakness of the rulers of England, and by 
 the power of the Bishops of Rome, in reducing the inde- 
 pendence of that Church, and inducing that whole Church 
 to submit to the authority and supremacy of the see of 
 Rome. 
 
 My friend, who was very eager and impatient to interrupt 
 me at every moment, seemed now quite pleased and satis- 
 fied at my acknowledgment that the Church of England 
 had submitted to the Church of Rome. 
 
 I repeated my statement, that the ancient Church of 
 Britain, in process of some centuries, had been induced to 
 forego her independence, and to submit to the see of Rome; 
 and then, I added, as a consequence to this, during Aer 
 connection with Rome, certain doctrines and practices pecu- 
 liar to that see were gradually introduced. In process of 
 time those peculiar doctrines and practices appeared to the 
 clergy and people of England to have been wrongly intro- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. l75 
 
 duced, as novelties and errors, that were inconsistent with 
 the simplicity and purity of their ancient Church. They 
 began to look on them as corruptions, or at least tending to 
 corruption, and needing a Reformation. There was the 
 public service of the Church performed in Latin, which 
 was not understood by the people, and which was contrary 
 to their ancient practice. There was the constant invoca- 
 tion of, and praying to the Virgin Mary, and saints, and 
 angels, introduced into the public liturgy, a practice incon- 
 sistent with their old religion. There was the turning the 
 communion of the Lord's Supper into a propitiatory sacri- 
 fice, and celebrated in private, contrary to all her primitive 
 custom. There was the withholding the cup from the lay- 
 people in the administration of the communion, making it 
 only a half-communion, in plain opposition to the original 
 institution. There was celibacy enforced upon the clergy, 
 which was regarded as very injurious to the morality and 
 well-being of society, and contrary to the ancient liberty of 
 the English Church. There were indulgences, dispensa- 
 tions, faculties, and numerous other devices by which the 
 wealth was abstracted from the country, for the aggrandise- 
 ment of the court of Rome. There was the exemption of 
 ecclesiastical persons from the civil tribunals of the king 
 and country. There were doctrines and practices about 
 images and relics, and purgatory, and various other matters ; 
 all which seemed to the people of England to be evils, more 
 or less inconsistent with the doctrines, practice, and inde- 
 pendence of the Church of England, and introduced by the 
 Church of Rome, during the times when the Church of 
 England recognised the authority of the Church of Rome. 
 All these seemed to the clergy and people of England, 
 
176 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 to require abatement or reformation, and they therefore 
 reformed their Church, as they had an undoubted right to 
 do. They interfered with no other Church, but they re- 
 formed their own : — bishops, priests, and people, by the au- 
 thority Tested in them, and with the full approval of the 
 sovereign and civil rulers, reformed the Church, not by anni- 
 hilating an old Church, and founding a new one, but by re- 
 moving the abuses and corruptions that times and circum- 
 stances had introduced. As our blessed Lord did not 
 destroy the temple of Jerusalem, did not remove one pillar 
 nor deface one ornament, when he cleansed it of such cor- 
 ruptions as money-changing and merchandise, — thus re- 
 forming and not destroying it, — ^purifying and not marring 
 it ; so the people of England, removing the evils and cor- 
 ruptions that had been introduced, restored their Church to 
 her ancient primitive purity. When therefore, I con- 
 tinued, we speak of the Church of England, we speak of 
 a Church some eighteen centuries old, and not, as you sup- 
 pose, a Church of only three centuries' existence — a Church 
 as ancient, or very nearly as ancient as your own — a Church 
 that was not cradled in passion, as you suppose, but rocked 
 and nurtured by the loving spirit of Christian missions — a 
 Church that was marred and clouded for a time during her 
 submission to Rome, but now, purified and reformed, is 
 no novel Church, as your argument and contrasts suppose, 
 but is the same old Church of England still. 
 
 My friend seemed as if he was taken a little unawares 
 by this mode of meeting his statements ; but he soon col- 
 lected himself, and replied, by saying, that my whole posi- 
 tion was founded on the assertion, that there had been a 
 British Church before the arrival of Augustine. He stated 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 177 
 
 that there certainly was no Christianity among the Saxons 
 before the mission of that saint, and that it was he who was 
 the blessed instrument of introducing the true religion as 
 commissioned by the successor of St. Peter, — that, admit- 
 ting the previous existence of a Church among the Britons 
 in the times of the Romans, yet that Church was founded 
 by missionaries from Rome ; — that whether in the time of 
 Lucius or of Gregory, true religion was first imported into 
 England by missions from Rome — that at all events it was 
 Pope Gregory who sent Augustine to propagate the Catho- 
 lic faith in the island, and that it was without any question 
 identically the faith of the Church of Rome, that that 
 saint and missionary then preached, and established with a 
 wonderful and miraculous success : — and that thus there was 
 no doubt that the Catholic Church — the Church of Rome, 
 was the holy mother of the Church of England. Having 
 stated this clearly, he went on to argue, that the daughter 
 was bound to obedience and submission to her mother, — 
 that having received the Catholic faith from her, she should 
 receive and retain the whole of that faith without exception, 
 — that having learned the true discipline from her, she 
 ought to observe the same without any curtailments — that 
 having been converted, christened, established through the 
 Church of Rome, she was bound in everything to receive 
 the doctrines and discipline of that Church, and to render 
 to her the full and perfect submission and obedience of a 
 daughter ; and that anything short of this was schism and 
 rebellion. 
 
 I stated concisely in reply to this, that his principle — 
 namely, that the daughter-church must always remain in 
 submissive obedience to the mother-church — was a principle 
 
 I 5 
 
178 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 to which I could not assent, — that I was sure he would not 
 assent to it himself, when he recollected that the Church 
 of Rome was founded by missionaries from the Church of 
 Jerusalem — that Rome was the daughter, and Jerusalem 
 the mother ; and therefore, on his principle, the Bishop 
 of Rome owed submission and obedience to the Bishop of 
 Jerusalem ! He was evidently displeased at this mode of 
 reply ; so I passed on to say, that the Church of America 
 was first founded by missions from the Church of England, 
 but that we should think it a most monstrous assumption 
 if the Archbishop of Canterbury demanded the submission 
 and obedience of the American Bishops and people. No, 
 I continued, it has been a valuable principle of the uni- 
 versal Church in all ages, that Bishops are equal and in- 
 dependent in their own dioceses, and therefore, when there 
 was a Bishop at Rome, he was independent of the Bishop 
 of Jerusalem, and when there was a Bishop in England, he 
 was independent of the Bishop of Rome, and when there 
 was a Bishop in America, he was independent of the 
 Bishops of England. I added, that beside all this, there 
 was the further consideration, that the people of England 
 felt and_ loved the freedom and independence of their 
 Church ; and as they sought not to interfere in the affairs 
 of other Churches, so they would not permit any other 
 Church to assume authority over the Church of England. 
 They felt she was their own, and were resolved that none 
 else should interfere with them. 
 
 He undertook to reply to this elaborately, stating that 
 it was founded on the assumption that there had been a 
 Christiari Church in Britain before the arrival of Saint 
 Augustine. His statement, however, was so confused, and 
 
THE JKSUITS AT ROME. 179 
 
 his mistakes of history so many, as might be expected and 
 excused in a foreigner, that I am partly unable and partly 
 unwilling to make an accurate narration of them. He left 
 the question, however, after a time, as one of history, and 
 proceeded to argue that the Reformation was wholly un- 
 necessary — that perhaps there were a few things, mere 
 accessories, matters of trivial importance, mere points of 
 discipline, which might most easily have been settled ; 
 whereas the Reformation itself was a change which arose 
 out of the worst passions of men. It was the creation of 
 one of the greatest of despots, and as it was begun in 
 passion, so it was accomplished in despotism. There 
 .might indeed, he added, have been, — perhaps there were, 
 some adventitious things, some accessories, some non- 
 essentials of religion, which needed reformation, but they 
 could most easily have been changed, and were changed in 
 the Council of Trent. That Council remedied and re- 
 formed all that required a remedy or reform. 
 
 I replied by saying that the cry for a reformation did 
 not begin with Luther or with the sixteenth century — for 
 it had pervaded the whole of Europe for more than a cen- 
 tury previous. I reminded him that the cry was univer- 
 sal in the beginning of the preceding century ; that the 
 Council of Constance, one of the most remarkable and 
 illustrious Councils ever held in the history of the Church, 
 was assembled to effect " A Reformation in the Church, 
 both in its head and in its members ! " — that that Council 
 assembled in 1414, more than a century before the time of 
 Luther ; and both by the letter of the Pope, and by the 
 statement of the Emperor, and by all the announcements 
 of the Council itself, it was formally and publicly set forth 
 
180 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 that it was assembled to effect "a Reformation of the 
 Church, both in its head and in its members." And that 
 afterwards the Council of Basle was assembled in 1435 
 with the avowed purpose of accomplishing " a Reforma- 
 tion of the Church, both in its head and in its members." 
 Two of the most celebrated Councils in the history of the 
 Church were thus convened on the open, avowed princi- 
 ple that a reformation was necessary — that one unanimous 
 cry pervaded universal Christendom, that a reformation 
 was necessary — and this prevailing conviction it was that 
 enabled Luther and others to accomplish that reformation. 
 So far from being over-hasty, he commenced only in 1517, 
 more than a century after the Council of Constance, in 
 the name of the universal Church, had declared its ab- 
 solute necessity ! Truly, I added, we must think that they 
 were matters of more importance than mere accessories 
 — ftiere non-essentials as he intimated, that elicited and 
 sustained this universal sense of all Christendom as to the 
 need of a reformation. And as for the Council of Trent, I 
 continued, it did ijot assemble till 1545, nearly thirty years 
 after Luther had first taken his successful stand for a Re- 
 formation. If that Council had been willing, which it was 
 not, to accomplish a real Reformation, it was too late ; — the 
 work was already accomplished by other and abler hands ! 
 My friend did not like this, but repeated his statement, 
 that there was nothing needing reformation beyond a few 
 accessories and non-essentials, which could easily be reme- 
 died, and were actually amended by the Council of Trent. 
 He added, with great animation, that in England the re- 
 formation was carried on in the most arbitrary manner — ' 
 that there was neither reason given nor reason received for 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 181 
 
 its wild and unheard-of novelties — that a love of novelty 
 and change and revolution was its ruling spirit — that hav- 
 ing received the true faith, the Catholic religion from Rome, 
 the Church of England had no right to resist or lay aside 
 any part or portion of what she has received ; she was 
 hound obediently to receive and faithfully to retain the 
 whole body of doctrine and discipline thus committed to 
 her keeping — that she had no right to retain one portion 
 and refuse the rest, arbitrarily choosing one thing and ar- 
 bitrarily rejecting another — that there was no right what- 
 ever in the Church of England thus disobediently and re- 
 belliously to select and refuse arbitrarily what had been 
 committed to her — that she had no right whatever to pro- 
 ceed in this arbitrary way — that she had no right whatever 
 to make any distinction — that she had once received the 
 Catholic faith from Rome, and should have kept the whole, 
 or rejected the whole. 
 
 It will easily be believed by all who have had experience 
 of controversy, that I found considerable difficulty in the 
 management of this conversation. It was a conversation 
 that seemed rapidly assuming the form of a stiff po- 
 lemical discussion. It was insensibly ceasing to be merely 
 conversational, and was becoming controversial ; and there 
 was danger of my betraying, like my friend, the spirit of 
 controversy and the desire for mastery in the struggle. I 
 felt myself in danger of showing myself too much personally 
 interested in the success of my views. I therefore resolved 
 to express myself as if detailing what might be the objec- 
 tions, or what were the arguments generally used in Eng- 
 land, and regarded by the members of the Church as 
 weighty and adequate on the point before us : as if giving 
 
182 M0RNING3 AMONG 
 
 expression to what might be the opinions of others, rather 
 than exhibiting myself as personally involved. 
 
 I replied therefore by saying that it would, as I appre- 
 hended, be very difficult to impress the mind of England 
 with the principle which he had thus laid down; — that 
 whereas his argument seemed to be, that as the Church of 
 England received the Gospel from the Church of Rome, 
 she was bound to accept the whole or reject the whole that 
 was held in that Church, making no distinction whatever 
 between one thing and another ; the answer which would 
 probably be urged in England, and urged too with great 
 effect, would be, that she was bound to accept whatever 
 seemed sound and true, and to reject whatever seemed un- 
 sound and erroneous — to retain what was right and to re- 
 fuse what was wrong ; and it could under no circumstances 
 whatever be justifiable to accept and believe and embrace 
 what was false, merely because it came in company with 
 what was true. I added that there was a vast fund of 
 common sense among the people of England, and that all 
 the little rules of schoolmen melted away before the uni- 
 versal exercise of that common sense. And yet further, 
 that he would be looked on as having totally misunderstood 
 the spirit and nature of the Reformation,' when he supposed 
 it went on the system of arbitrarily rejecting one thing and 
 arbitrarily retaining another. The Reformation of the 
 Church of England was accomplished on a settled princi- 
 ple. That which was according to Holy Scripture was re- 
 tained. That which was contrary to the same was rejected. 
 The Holy Scriptures of God were prominently put forward 
 and assumed as the test. For example. Episcopacy was 
 retained because it was consistent with Scripture, while the 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 183 
 
 Invocation of Saints was rejected because it was inconsistent 
 with Scripture. A Liturgy was retained, but a Liturgy in 
 an unknown language was rejected. Two Sacraments were 
 retained, but the other five so-called Sacraments were re- 
 jected : whatever was deemed according to Scripture was 
 retained, while whatever was regarded as contrary to Scrip- 
 ture was rejected. I therefore added, that there was no 
 accusation he could make against the Reformation of the 
 Church of England more hkely to give offence to the people 
 of England, than the statement that her Reformation was 
 an arbitrary rejection of one thing and an arbitrary recep- 
 tion of another. The universal feeling of the men of all 
 parties and all sects in England was to make the Holy 
 Scriptures — the Word of God — the test to try and deter- 
 mine every question of religion. 
 
 His reply to this was in a total change of manner. He 
 had been warm. His earnest zeal had exhibited itself, and 
 though he had forgotten himself and his position for the 
 moment, yet I could not but like him in my heart all the 
 better for his earnestness. Now, however, he seemed to 
 impose a constraint on himself, and spoke in a manner and 
 in a tone totally different. He said, as if thoughtfully, — as 
 if waking from a reverie, in which he had not heard a word 
 I had said, that he felt there was no real peace of mind out 
 of the true Church — the Chiu-ch of Rome — and that I 
 never could enjoy the grace of the soul in the Church of 
 England — that he had now, in so many interviews, seen 
 enough of me to be able to say that I never could have 
 peace out of the Church of Rome — that one possessed of 
 my knowledge of Theology — with my acquaintance with 
 ecclesiastical history — ^with my love of truth and spirit of 
 
184 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 arguing, it was impossible to have peace if I remained in 
 the Church of England. He then paid some very smooth 
 and courteous compliments to both my head and my heart, 
 which I will not here repeat, but which seemed to me at 
 the moment, to be but preparatives for something less pleas- 
 ing and palatable. I might, he said, go on for a time under 
 a false peace of mind, but the hour would come — the bed 
 of death must come, sooner or later — and though all might 
 now seem to go on well for a time, yet there and then there 
 could be no peace — no peace whatever. I appeal to you, 
 said he, with increasing earnestness, whether you could 
 possibly die in peace in the bosom of such a Church as the 
 Church of England — a Church of only yesterday — a Church 
 of the passions of man — a Church without any one of the 
 marks by which the true Catholic Church alone can be re- 
 cognized — a Church that consists of nothing but novelties 
 — a Church that is necessarily limited to a very minute 
 portion of the world — a Church that is torn in pieces and 
 crumbling into ruins by her own divisions. It is utterly 
 impossible that an enquiring mind, one possessed of in- 
 tellect and knowledge and love of truth, could continue in 
 such a Church, and find peace within her bosom in the hour 
 of death. It is impossible. And, he added, you ought to 
 remember it is far better to make any and every sacrifice 
 of friends, family, interest and all, now, rather than be 
 without peace on a bed of death. Have you, he asked 
 earnestly, have you prayed to be converted ? 
 
 As this was a personal appeal, I could not escape from it, 
 nor indeed did I desire it, and after a few moments secret 
 reflection, I replied with earnestness, that I valued, above 
 all else, the peace of the soul — that I knew there was a 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 185 
 
 false peace, wherein the soul was soothed, and lulled into a 
 mistaken security — that I read and felt the words of Scrip- 
 ture, warning us against those who cried, " Peace, Peace ! 
 when there was no peace ;" — that to obtain the true peace 
 of God, " that peace which passeth all imderstanding, and 
 which keepeth the heart and mind in the love of God, and 
 of Christ Jesus our Lord," — it is necessary that we be pre- 
 pared to sacrifice all : " What shall a man profit who should 
 gain the whole world an3. lose his own soul, and what shall 
 a man give in exchange for his soul ? " I added, that if I 
 knew myself, it was my constant desire and earnest prayer, 
 to be led into all truth, a prayer for light, knowledge, 
 guidance, but as for praying for my conversion to the 
 Church of Rome, I never did, and I never could — that I 
 prayed to be converted from all that is erroneous, and con- 
 ducted to all that is holy and true, but that I must not — 
 could not pray for conversion from the Church of England, 
 which I felt to be both holy and true, to that Church of 
 Rome which I believed to be neither holy nor true. 
 
 Jle assented quietly to the propriety of this sentiment, 
 but went on to ask, how it was possible that I could hope 
 for peace in so novel a Church as the Church of England. 
 Whatever I might have said of her antiquity as a Church, 
 still the whole system of her doctrine was novel. 
 
 I do not know that he could have led me to a point on 
 which I felt myself stronger, or on which I wished to ascer- 
 tain, whether the Jesuits of Rome had anything to offer, 
 beside the trite and often repeated statements made on this 
 subject. I therefore immediately responded to his appeal ; 
 I reminded him that we had already considered the point 
 of the antiquity, or novelty of the Church of England as 
 
186 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 a Christian Church — that I had shewn, that so far from 
 being a Church of only three centuries existence, she was 
 really a Church of the very earliest and most ancient date. 
 And now, I added, his assertion was, that her doctrines 
 were novel, presuming that he meant that her doctrines 
 since the Reformation were novel. 
 
 He assented readily to this, saying, that his present ar- 
 gument was, that although ancient perhaps as a Church, 
 she was novel as to her doctrine, — that her doctrines, as 
 held since the Reformation, were novel. 
 
 I then stated, that there was an argument on this point, 
 well known, and universally felt in England, and I begged 
 he would forgive me for expressing my feeling, that I had 
 never heard an adequate answer to it — that the Church of 
 England had a right to ask — what and where are the novel 
 doctrines she teaches ? The argument usual in England, 
 as clearly as I could state it, was this — that there were four 
 creeds — that three of these, namely the Apostles', the 
 Nicene, and the Athanasian, were ancient creeds of the 
 primitive Church, and that the fourth, namely, the creed 
 of Pope Pius, was a modern creed, received only by the 
 Roman Church, — that the Church of England received 
 the Apostles' Creed, it was ancient, and according to Scrip- 
 ture ; also the Nicene Creed, which was ancient, and ac- 
 cording to Scripture ; also the Athanasian Creed, being 
 ancient, and according to Scripture : — that her creeds are 
 thus ancient, and her articles of faith thus primitive, and 
 that therefore her system of doctrine could not reasonably 
 be called novel. Her creed, i. e,, her articles of faith, are 
 the very same as the creeds of the primitive Churches. 
 Every creed that they received, she also receives, without 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 187 
 
 addition or diminution, and therefore she ought not, and 
 cannot, justly be accused of holding or teaching novelties. 
 This, I added, was the argument or answer usually made 
 in England to every charge, as to novelty of doctrine, and 
 it must be allowed, as it seemed to me, to be one very diffi- 
 cult, if not impossible to overthrow ; at least, I could see no 
 way of replying satisfactorily to it, unless he could enable 
 me to specify where and what was the novel doctrine. 
 
 I paused for a moment, to enable him to give me an an- 
 swer before my turning the argument against his own 
 Church. He was silent. I therefore continued, saying, 
 that in England it was usual to advance the charge of no- 
 velty against the Church of Rome, and the argument was 
 this — that, of the four creeds, three were primitive, and one 
 was modern — that the Church of England received the 
 three that were primitive, and rejected only that one which 
 was modern, that that modern one, compiled by Pope 
 Pius, was composed for the first time in the sixteenth cen- 
 tury, AFTER THE REFORMATION, and AFTER THE CoUNCIL OF 
 
 Trent 1 — and that that creed, thus novel, and utterly un- 
 known and unthought of in the primitive Church, was now 
 the received and recognized creed, more prized, and invested 
 with more authority, than any other creed in the Church of 
 Rome. I added, that this argument was frequently urged 
 in England as a proof, that while the creeds of the Church 
 of England are primitive, that of the Church of Rome is 
 novel ; and that I could not but say, that I saw not how it 
 could be answered. 
 
 He replied in a manner that struck me as disturbed and 
 perplexed, as if he was a little disappointed and annoyed 
 at having to argue his way with more effort than he had 
 
188 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 anticipated. He said, that creeds were nothing, and that 
 they were no signs or evidences of the faith of a church — 
 that they might perhaps be regarded as the signs and evi- 
 dences of some few articles of belief, but not of the gene- 
 ral faith of a Church as a whole system — that this was the 
 character of the three primitive creeds to which I had re- 
 ferred, and that they therefore proved nothing — that though 
 the creed of Pope Pius was originally composed by him in 
 the sixteenth century, and was thus modern, as compared 
 with the others, yet every separate article of faith in that 
 creed was as ancient as the other creeds, having been al- 
 ways and universally held and taught from the beginning 
 of the Church — that it was compiled, in order to embody 
 those ancient truths of the true Catholic faith which had 
 been obscured or denied by the Protestants, and which, just 
 then, had been settled and decreed at the Council of Trent. 
 He then quickly turned from the argument, saying, that 
 the Council of Trent had heard every cause of reasonable 
 complaint, and remedied every abuse that time had intro- 
 duced into the discipline and practice of the Church, 
 and that that council had d,ecreed no novel doctrine, and 
 made no change in the ancient Catholic Faith — that the 
 true Catholic Church was still the very same from the 
 beginning — that kingdoms and empires had changed, but 
 she had not changed, — that Churches and sects had varied, 
 but she had not varied, — and as we looked around on the 
 diversities of time, countries, manners, we are constrained 
 to acknowledge, that the only thing unchanged, because 
 unchangeable, was the Catholic Church. 
 
 I stated, that his reply would not be held in England as 
 satisfactory^that many there would go so far as to say 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 189 
 
 that it was no reply to the real argument. How stands the 
 question ? You charge the Church of England with novelty 
 of doctrine. She answers by saying, first, that all her creeds 
 are the admitted creeds of the primitive Church ; she has 
 adopted them in her articles, andinserted them in her liturgy ; 
 — and therefore that all the articles of her faith are identical 
 with those of the primitive Church, and that thus she cannot 
 justly be accused of novelty. And she answers by saying, 
 secondly, that it is the Church of Rome that has composed a 
 modern creed, a novel series of articles, not one of which was 
 ever embodied in any ancient creed whatever, and that there- 
 fore the charge of novelty of doctrine may more justly be 
 advanced against her. I added, that this method of arguing, 
 or rather this view of the subject, might seem very erroneous 
 to him, and might perhaps be very weak in itself, but still 
 it was very popular in England, and required a clearer 
 answer than it had yet received, so far as my reading went, 
 — that he must not be surprised at its popularity, when I 
 should tell him that it was not uncommon there to take a 
 copy of the creed of Pope Pius ; one part of it being the 
 articles of the Nicene Creed, the other part being the twelve 
 new articles added by Pope Pius: the former being primitive, 
 the latter being modern, and then, with a pair of scissors 
 to cut the creed into its two parts, retaining the former, 
 because primitive, and rejecting the latter, because modern. 
 An argument like this has great weight upon the plain 
 common sense of the people of England ; and the clergy of 
 their Church knew how to use it effectually. And I there- 
 fore asked my friend, whether he could give me a popular 
 answer to so popular an argument. 
 
 He shewed no disposition to deal directly with the point. 
 
190 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 but observed, as he had done before, that creeds were 
 nothing — that they were no signs or evidences of the faith 
 of a Church — that the twelve articles added by Pope Pius 
 in the Nicene Creed were truths that had always been held 
 — that they were approved by all that was learned in the 
 world, and received by all that was holy in the Church. 
 
 I then again asked, whether, seeing the Church of Eng- 
 land receives all the ancient creeds, he could specify any 
 novel doctrine that was held by her. I paused for an an- 
 swer, but received none, and I therefore then asked, whe- 
 ther, seeing the Church of Rome compiled a new creed so 
 late as the sixteenth century, even after the Reformation, 
 it did not give ground for a presumption that her doctrines 
 were novel- 
 He gave no answer to either of these enquiries, other 
 than saying, that creeds were nothing, and that the twelve 
 articles added by Pope Pius had been held at all times, and 
 in all places, and by all persons, and that they were spread- 
 ing in the Church of England herself — that a large section 
 of that Church, and an increasing section, was steadily 
 inclining more and more to these very articles of the Church 
 of Rome — that thus a great division existed within the 
 bosom of the Church of England on this subject — that 
 many were privately embracing that very system which I 
 was then impugning — and, that though I might not be 
 aware of it, he had most certain knowledge of the fact. 
 
 I answered, that I did not see how that fact — however 
 true — could meet the argument or explain the difficulty as 
 to the creeds ; and then, 1 added, that I believed the fact 
 as he stated it to be strictly true, but that he ought to re- 
 member the analogous movements in the Church of Rome 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 191 
 
 in Germany, where a portion of the priests are calling for 
 a change in several particulars, calling for the public ser- 
 vices in the vernacular tongue ; calling for a rescinding of 
 the canons enforcing celibacy ; calling for the giving of the 
 Sacramental cup to the laity — in short, manifesting a divi- 
 sion in the -Church of Rome, quite as remarkable as that 
 - to which he alluded in the Church of England. If there 
 are divisions in one Church, there are also divisions in the 
 other. 
 
 He said he had no fears about the movement in Ger^ 
 many, and spoke of it with marked contempt, saying, that 
 before they died, they would all be asking to be received 
 again into the Church. He then asserted, that it was 
 always thus ; saying that on the other hand no Catholic 
 was ever known to become a Protestant on his death-bed. 
 
 I felt this was only a diversion from our main subject, 
 and therefore, though I met his statement, and we con- 
 versed for a short time respecting it, yet I here omit it as 
 interfering with our general argument, to which we soon 
 returned. 
 
 The conversation had hitherto been led by my friend. 
 He had been impeaching the Church of England as an un- 
 safe Church for me to peril my soul within her commu- 
 nion. He had objected that it was of only three centuries' 
 existence. He seemed afterwards to waive this objection. 
 He had then objected that it was novel in its system of 
 doctrines, and my reply as to the creeds had received no 
 attempt at an answer. I felt he had failed in his own 
 positions, and I felt too he had failed in being unable to 
 specify any instance of novelty of doctrine in the Church 
 of England. I now thought of no longer standing on the 
 
192 - MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 mere defensive, but felt I might safely carry the war int 
 his own camp, by urging similar objections to his own 
 Church. But I resolved to do this, as if I was only de- 
 fending the Church of England. 
 
 I said, that in considering the two Churches of England 
 and Rome, it ought always to be kept in view, that all 
 the doctrines, all the Articles of Faith in the Church of 
 England are, without a single exception, received and af- 
 firmed in the Church of Rome. There is not one solitary 
 exception ; so that Rome cannot charge England with 
 holding a single error of doctrine. For example the Church 
 of England holds that the Holy Scriptures are the rule of 
 faith — the Church of Rome holds the very same, namely, 
 that the Holy Scriptures are the rule of faith, but she adds 
 that tradition is another and further rule for interpretation. 
 4,gain, the Church of England holds that the man Christ 
 Jesus is the one Mediator of redemption and intercession 
 between Godhead and Manhood. The Church of Rome 
 holds the very same, namely, that Jesus Christ is such a 
 Mediator ; but she also adds that the Virgin Mary and . 
 other Saints are also Mediators of Intercession. Again, 
 the Church of England teaches, that there are two Sacra- 
 ments, namely. Baptism and the Supper of the Lord. The 
 Church of Rome holds the very same, holding both these 
 to be Sacraments of Christ, by adding some five other 
 alleged Sacraments. Again, the Church of England holds 
 that we are justified by faith in Christ, which secures to 
 us the righteousness and merits of Christ. The Church of 
 Rome holds the same, namely, the justifying us by faith 
 in Christ ; but she adds the merits of saints and the right- 
 eousness of men. I traced this through several other par- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 193 
 
 ticulars, calling his attentioa to the fact, that all the Arti- 
 cles of Faith — all that was positive in her Articles — were 
 received in the Church of Rome herself. And therefore, 
 there was no room on her part to object or except against 
 any one article of the faith of the Church of England. 
 Rome cannot impeach the soundness of any item of doc- 
 trine in England. Consequently, if it be stated that it is 
 unsafe to remain in her communion, it must be on some 
 other ground than unsoundness of doctrine. 
 
 To all this he listened with marked and courteous atten- 
 tion ; but when I paused, expecting a reply, he seemed 
 more disposed to let me proceed. 
 
 I therefore said that it was usually argued in the Church 
 of Rome, that, though the Church of England held soundly 
 what she did hold — that though all her positive doctrines 
 were also held in the Church of Rome, and were sound — 
 yet that she had omitted some essentials of the faith, and 
 was thus an unsafe communion — that though she held the 
 truth, yet she held not all the truth that was essential. I 
 added, that this objection had never possessed much weight 
 with the people of England, who always conceived that they 
 held all that was essential — all the great body of Christian 
 verity, and this too on the full admission of the Church of 
 Rome herself ; for they were in the habit of arguing in 
 England, that if the doctrines of the Church of England 
 were subtracted from the doctrines of the Church of Rome 
 — that if the faith of England were subtracted from the faith 
 of Rome, the residuum, so far from containing- anything 
 essential, would be very worthless indeed. For example : 
 if we take away the Holy Scriptures and leave nothing but 
 tradition — if we take away the two Sacraments of Baptism 
 
 K 
 
194 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 and the Lord's Supper, and leave only the other five alleged 
 Sacraments — ^if we take away the three primitive creeds 
 and leave only the modern one of Pope Pius — if we take 
 away the Mediatorship of Jesus Christ and leave only that 
 of the Virgin Mary and the Saints — if we take away the 
 merits and righteousness of the Redeemer, and leave only 
 the imagined merits and righteousness of men — ^if we take 
 away Heaven and Hell, and leave only Purgatory — if we 
 thus suhtract the items of doctrine, the Articles of Faith 
 held by the Church of England, from those held by the 
 Church of Rome, we leave her nothing worth having — we 
 leave her nothing but a lifeless and unsubstantial shadow 
 of religion, taking away all that is truly valuable, and leav- 
 ing her without anything but valueless accessories. The 
 argument therefore is, that as all the positive Articles of 
 the Church of England are received and held as sound in 
 the Church of Rome, and as, if those Articles of England 
 be deducted from the faith of Rome, there will remain only 
 a worthless residuum ; so it must be safe to remain in the 
 Church of England, even more safe than in the Church of 
 Rome. I added, that this process of. reasoning, a popular 
 one in England, required an answer ; and as I was not 
 aware of any, I asked whether he could propose one. 
 
 My friend listened to all this with apparent attention and 
 interest, and proceeded to answer, by saying, that he must 
 admit that all the positive articles, all the dogmatic teach- 
 ings of the Church of England were sound, — that they were 
 identical with those of the Roman Catholic Church, though 
 unhappily they were ill-understood and worse interpreted ; 
 but that it ought always to be remembered, that these sound 
 and true articles were all received from the Church of Rome 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 195 
 
 — that earlier or later, they came from the centre of Unity 
 at Rome — and that thus the Church of England stands 
 indebted to Rome for all that is sound in her faith. And 
 liis opinion was, that as the Church of England received so 
 much on the authority of Rome, she was bound to receive 
 the rest, or rather to have retained the rest, especially as 
 she had previously received and held it. 
 
 I apologized here for interrupting him, saying, that the 
 foundation on which he seemed about to argue was a mistake 
 — a very common one, I admitted, but still a mistake. He 
 assumed that the Church of England received and held her 
 positive articles of faith on the authority of the Church of 
 Rome. She receives and holds them only on the autho- 
 rity of God — on the authority of His word — on the autho- 
 rity of His Holy Scriptures. All we find there we receive 
 and hold ; — all that we find not "there, we pronounce unne- 
 cessary to salvation. In this matter we never think of the 
 authority, nor even of the existence of the Church of Rome. 
 
 He replied, by saying, that however the matter might be 
 explained, there was no doubt as to the fact that England 
 received the faith from Rome, that the Church of England 
 is the daughter-church of Rome, and that a large portion 
 of her doctrines came originally from Rome. He was 
 ready to admit, that thus the Church of England retained 
 much valuable truth, much of the principal doctrines of the 
 faith, perhaps all the principal ones, but still it did not fol- 
 low that she was safe, or that any man could continue 
 safely in her communion ;-^and on this ground, namely, 
 that while she retained much that was essential, she had 
 cast away much, that was also essential. As for those 
 which she retained, they cannot serve or save her, because 
 K 2 
 
196 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 some of them she has altered and perverted, and others 
 she has misunderstood and clouded, and all of them she 
 has received in a different and uncatholic sense. As for 
 those which she rejected, she divorced herself from the 
 alone centre of Unity, the chair of St. Peter. She cast 
 from her truths which were held from the beginning ; — 
 she separated herself from Catholic Unity ; — she broke the 
 chain of apostolic succession ; — she broke herself off from 
 the apostolical tree, so that she now stands by herself, a 
 minute Church, differing as well as separate from all the 
 rest of Christendom, divided within herself, giving occasion 
 to endless divisions ; giving birth to every variety of dissent- 
 ing sects, and without any connecting link or bond with 
 Christ's Catholic Church, Her doctrines are uncertain, her 
 discipline is loose, her origin is novel, her condition is rent 
 asunder by divisions, — all within her seems going to ruini. 
 It is not possible, — he added with great animation, — ^it 
 is not possible to remain with safety in such a Church, and 
 if her members would be safe, it is necessary to come back 
 to that Church from which she originally received all that 
 was sound and valuable in her ? 
 
 To this I replied, that there was an obvious answer that 
 might be made to this, namely, that it was more safe to re- 
 main in the Church of England than in the Church of Rome. 
 And on this greund, — -that all the positive doctrines of 
 the Church of England are already received, acknowledged, 
 admitted by the Church of Rome, as sound, and Scriptural, 
 and Catholic ; so that for their truth and certainty, there is 
 the evidence of the Church of Rome herself, and the assent 
 of the whole Church Catholic. All these doctrines thus 
 are safe, and therefore remaining in the Church of England, 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 197 
 
 a man is safe. But, on the other hand, looking on the 
 Church of Rome in all those points whereon she differs 
 from England, there we see difference of opinion, there we 
 see douhts, there we see questions of doubtful decision, on 
 which the learned and the good are divided. And there- 
 fore it may be argued, that it is wiser and safer to remain 
 in the Church of England, whose doctrines are universally 
 admitted to be sound and true, than to leave her for the 
 Church of Rome, whose peculiar doctrines are debated as 
 well as debateable — questioned as well as questionable. To 
 express the argument in few words — all the positive doc- 
 trines of the Church of England have the assent and sanc- 
 tion of the Church of Rome, as well as of the Church of 
 England ; in short, the approval of both Churches ; whereas 
 the peculiar doctrines of the Church of Rome have only 
 the evidence and approval of herself. The testimony of 
 both Churches is for the doctrines of the Church of Eng- 
 land, while the testimony of both is at issue, at hopeless 
 issue, as to the doctrines of the Church of Rome : — so that 
 it may well be argued, that it is safer to remain in the 
 Church of England. 
 
 The reply he made to this was of considerable length. 
 He alluded to the different sects or divisions among Protes- 
 tants. He described the Lutheran Church, he alluded to 
 the Wesleyan body, he entered into details respecting those 
 he called Calvinists, shewing that all these held also certain 
 great and leading doctrines of the faith, — that these 
 Churches, whether in Germany, or in France, or in Scot- 
 land, were in this particular analogous to the Church of 
 England. They, like her, held certain great doctrines of 
 the faith — they like her, held perhaps all the principal 
 
198 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 doctrines of Catholic truth — they could boast, except per- 
 haps in the point of the hierarchy, the Episcopacy, as 
 much as she could, and therefore each and all of them, 
 could argue for the safety of their communions on the , 
 very same principles as those on which I had argued for 
 the safety within the Church of Eagland. He developed 
 this argument in detail, and then in a tone of triumph con- 
 cluded, that if on my principle of arguing, the Church of 
 England could be a safe communion, then all these Luthe- 
 ran, Calvinistic, Wesleyan, Presbyterian Churches must be 
 safe likewise. And they had thus as much right to regard 
 themselves as the Catholic Church, as the Church of Eng- 
 land herself, and thus we should arrive at the strange con- 
 clusion, that the Catholic Church was not one, but many, 
 and thus alter the words of the creed — " The one holy 
 Catholic Church," and read it, — " The many holy Catholic 
 Churches." 
 
 The tone and manner of my friend shewed a full convic- 
 tion that the question was disposed of for ever by this rea- 
 soning, expecting that I would havfe at once denounced 
 those various Churches, and asserted that the Church of 
 England was the alone Catholic Church. My reply, how- 
 ever, turned his position. 
 
 I said, that I had often observed an error pervading the 
 minds of Eoman Catholics, as to the real position which 
 the Church of England claimed for herself — that I had 
 frequently observed it among our mutual friends at Rome, 
 and that it lay at the foundation of his present argument. 
 The error was that which supposes that the Church of 
 England claims to be the Catholic Church, or the Chm-ch 
 of Christ, in an exclusive way. She presumes not to so 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 199 
 
 exclusive, a claim. She professes to be a branch — a part — 
 a section of " the One holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" 
 of Christ. She believes, that as anciently there was a Church 
 at Jerusalem, a Church at Antioch, a Church in Galatia, a 
 Church in Corinth, a Church in Rome, and there are other 
 seven different Churches described in Asia : — and as each 
 of these was not singly and exclusively the. Catholic Church 
 of Christ, but only a branch, a part, a section of that 
 Church, — so now the Church of England merely claims for 
 herself to be considered in this subordinate position, not as 
 the whole, but as a part of the whole Church. Now his 
 whole argument was to the effect that if I claimed for the 
 Church of England that she exclusively was the Catholic 
 Church, then I must unchurch the Lutherans, the Wesley- 
 ans, and the Calvinists, &c. ; or I mufet, by churching them, 
 make, not one, but many Catholic Churches ; whereas not 
 making any such claim for the Church of England, all his 
 inference must vanish away. The truth is, that all these 
 Communities or Churches were branches more or less fruit- 
 ful, parts more or less sound, sections more or less extended, 
 of the One holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ. 
 The truth is, that we all claim the title of Churches, we all 
 claim the title of Christian, we all claim membership with 
 the Church of Christ. We, none of us, pretend to an ex- 
 clusive claim ; and the Church of Rome stands alone in so 
 strange and unproved a pretension. 
 
 And thus, he exclaimed, you are only a section — a mere 
 section of the Church ! 
 
 Precisely so, I rejoined, the Church of England claims 
 only to be regarded as a section of the Church of Christ — 
 a member of the family of Churches. She claims to be a 
 
200 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 pure, scriptural, ancient, apostolical section, but still only 
 a section, with her own forms, her own ritual, her own 
 hierarchy ; and I feel that salvation may be found within 
 her ; and I see not why you should state that it is not safe 
 to remain in her. I say this on your own principles;; for 
 since I came to Rome I have seen that your Church recog- 
 nises the principle that there may be many Churches differ- 
 ing in forms, differing in rituals, differing in details, and yet 
 they may all be true members of the one Church of Christ. 
 I have myself witnessed here in Rome a remarkable illus- 
 tration of this. I have witnessed the ritual of the Greek 
 Church and the liturgy of the Armenian Church celebrated 
 in their respective Churches in this city of Rome. I have 
 witnessed in the Chapel of the College de Propaganda Fide, 
 the last Supper of our Lord celebrated according to the 
 Chaldee, the Syrian, the Maronite, the Coptic, the Greek, 
 the Armenian forms, I have witnessed the same in the 
 Church of S. Andrea della Valle. All those forms vary 
 one from another almost as widely as the Protestant differs 
 from the Roman. And yet all these are exhibited at Rome, 
 to shew that the Church of Rome recognises their ortho- 
 doxy and catholicity notwithstanding their diversity. If 
 therefore your Church of Rome acknowledges the salva- 
 bility of the members of those various Churches, though 
 differing from her, she ought to be able to adduce very 
 strong arguments indeed before she denies salvability to 
 the members of the Church of England. 
 
 His answer to this was just what I had anticipated, as 
 the same answer had repeatedly before been made to the 
 same objection when I had urged it against others. He 
 said that the Church of England was in a state of schism 
 
•THE JESUITS AT ROME. 201 
 
 — that it was a schismatical Church. He said " heretical," 
 but immediately corrected himself as unwilling to seem 
 unnecessarily discourteous. He said that those other 
 Churches of the East which I had named, and whose vari- 
 ous and varying rituals I had witnessed celebrated at the 
 Propaganda, were not schismatical — that they acknow- 
 ledged the primacy and authority of the successor in the 
 chair of St. Peter — that they thus were in union and there- 
 fore in communion with the great Centre of Catholic Unity, 
 and so were integral portions of the Catholic Church ; - so 
 that though they adopted their own forms and ceremonies 
 and rituals, thus diifering in non-essentials, they were in 
 union with the Catholic Church. But the Church of 
 England was schismatical — had broken herself off from 
 the Apostolic tree — had divorced herself from the Centre 
 of Unity — had separated herself from the visible Catholic 
 Church — and was thus schismatical. 
 
 I replied, that though the Church of England was sepa- 
 rated from the Church Roman, yet she was not separated 
 from the Church Catholic — that such at least was the view 
 taken of this matter hy all parties in England ; — that the 
 view generally taken was, that the Church Catholic was 
 that vast community or sisterhood of Churches that com- 
 prehended all (Christendom ; and that the Church of Eng- 
 land considered herself one of these — that the Church of 
 Rome was regarded as another that had erred both in her 
 ceremonies and in the faith, and that it did not belong to 
 one section of the Church to excommuuicate another section 
 as schismatical ; for the charge was easy and sure to be 
 retorted. I added, that the great error or mistake of the 
 Roman controversialists was their assuming that their 
 K 5 
 
202 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Church was the Catholic Church — not a section or memher 
 of it ;^hut the Church Catholic herself. 
 
 He answered me, by saying, that the chair of St. Peter, 
 now occupied by the Bishop of Rome, was the centre of 
 unity to the whole Catholic Church — that though the Ro- 
 man Catholic Church was not the whole Catholic Church, 
 yet she was the centre of unity, so that no Church could 
 be a part or portion of the Church of Christ which was 
 not in union with her — that the Church of England had 
 once maintained that union — had been one with Rome, 
 holding the same doctrines, the same discipline, and recog- 
 nising her authority ; but that at the time of the Reforma- 
 tion she had separated, divorced herself from Rome, and 
 had thus become schismatical. 
 
 1 was prepared for this, and had my reply ready. I 
 said, that he and his Church had already recognized in the 
 several Churches, the inherent right to arrange and model 
 their own forms, rites, &c., — that the exhibition of the vary- 
 ing rituals at the Propaganda established this as an acknow- 
 ledged right, — and that the Church of England only claimed 
 for herself that right which was thus acknowledged to ex- 
 ist in all otber Churches. Now, I said with great emphasis, 
 the Church of England, in the exercise of this her un- 
 doubted and admitted right, proceeded to remodel and re- 
 form some of her forms and rituals at the Reformation, and 
 for this exercise of her right she was, contrary to all justice 
 and charity, excommunicated by the Bishop of Rome. It 
 is a great error to say, that the Church of England divorced 
 herself from the Church of Rome. No, but the Church 
 of Rome excommunicated the Church of England. The 
 separation — the division — the schism, or whatever it be 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 203 
 
 called, was the arbitrary act of the Bishop of Rome. The 
 members of the Council of Trent took it on them to anathe- 
 matize all persons who held certain views on some disputed 
 questions, and the Bishop of Rome, taking on himself to 
 assert that the Church of England held those views, pro- 
 ceeded unjustly and uncharitably to anathematize and sepa- 
 rate the whole Church of England. If therefore there be 
 schism in the case, then the Bishop of Rome is its author, 
 the gxeat schismatic, who, by his arbitrary proceeding, has 
 created this schism. 
 
 My friend replied to this with considerable vivacity. He 
 said, as before, that the Church of England was herself 
 the author of the schism — that she had origmally received 
 the gospel from Rome — that for ages she had faithfully 
 held the religion she had thus received — that at the Refor- 
 mation, and not till then, she broke away, cast off every- 
 thing, embraced novelties, and avowed her schism and glo- 
 ried in it. And as all this schism was the result of despo- 
 tism — the despotism of one wicked man, and was caused 
 by the worst passions of human nature, and as it was, not- 
 withstanding such an origin, openly avowed by the Church 
 of England, she deserved to be excommunicated — to be 
 separated, and put out of the Catholic Church. All this was 
 uttered, with much of the same nature, with great warmth, 
 and then, moderating his tone and manner, he proceeded to 
 say that it was very true that the time and manner in which 
 Henry VIII was excommunicated by the Pope, and especi- 
 ally the step of excommunication itself, may have been un- 
 fortunate or injudicious, but yet it was deserved. All that 
 was a mere question of policy and expediency, not of reli- 
 gion, and therefore it may be held that it was unwise and 
 
20i MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 injudicious to have excommunicated Queen Elizabeth after- 
 wards at that special time when it was done, but certainly 
 she deserved it. It seems however now, that under all the 
 circumstances it was bad policy, as it seems probable, that 
 if another and different course had been adopted by the 
 Court at Rome, the separation of England might have been 
 prevented. The step, he added, was taken perhaps too 
 hastily, and is now to be regretted, on account of its un- 
 happy consequences. 
 
 I remarked that all this implied, that the separation was 
 caused by the Pope of Rome, and his precipitate proceed- 
 ings, and that therefore the charge of schism must lie against 
 the Roman, rather than against the English branch of the 
 Universal Church. One branch had no right to excommu- 
 nicate the other. It was assuming for Rome that she was 
 the Catholic Church herself, instead of being merely a sec- 
 tion of it. 
 
 He replied, that the Church of Rome was not a section, 
 but was the Catholic Church herself, to which the promises 
 were made, — the Catholic Church which was founded by 
 Christ Himself on St. Peter, saying, " Thou art Peter, and 
 on this rock I will build my Church, &c.,"—ihe Catholic 
 Church to which he promised, " I will be with you always, 
 to the end of the world." The Church of Rome, he added 
 emphatically, is that Church, and her head is the centre of 
 Catholic unity — the infallible voice of Christ's Church, and 
 therefore the only Church in which there is safety. 
 
 Some friends were at this moment announced, and thus 
 ended a conversation that had already continued for more 
 than two hours. It was one of considerable difficulty—* 
 one in which I felt obliged to exercise more self-restraint 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 205 
 
 than on any other occasion, to repress in myself both the 
 spirit and appearance of a controversialist, while at the 
 same time, the whole bearing and manner of ray friendly 
 Opponent was both earnest and courteous in the extreme. 
 He seemed as sincere in his opinions, as he was anxious to 
 persuade me, and appeared at times to feel the difficulties 
 with which he had to contend. 
 
206 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 CHAPTER VII. 
 
 INVITATION TO A POLEMICAL DISCUSSION— THE PROHIBITION OF THE 
 SCRIPTURES FOR SALE AT ROME— UNIVERSAL IGNORANCE OF THE 
 SACRED VOLUME— SALVATION ONLY IN THE CHURCH OP ROME— IN- 
 FALLIBILITY OP THE POPES NECESSARY TO BE BELIEVED— WHETHER 
 THERE BE SALVATION IN THE CHURCH OP ENGLAND — THE CHURCH 
 OF ROME HAS NEVER CLAIMED INFALLIBILITY. 
 
 A COMMUNICATION had been made to me to the effect, that 
 the reverend professor of Dogmatic Theology wished to 
 have a theological discussion with me. Whether this 
 arose from a hope, that he might succeed in making a 
 proselyte of me, or from a desire for a controversial con- 
 ference with me, in consequence of our previous collision 
 in the CoUegio Romano, it is not for me to state. A com- 
 munication had been made to me by a clerical friend of the 
 Church of England, that the professor had expressed him- 
 self thus desirous of a meeting ; and a formal message, 
 with an invitation or challenge to a theological discussiou, 
 was afterwards conveyed to me by the reverend professor 
 of Canon Law. I gladly accepted it ; I felt it might prove 
 a new and additional source of information, as to the real 
 nature of the Church of Rome, and the arguments by 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 207 
 
 which she is supported ; though I certainly felt rather 
 nervous at the prospect of a controversy vrith two of the 
 most able and subtle of the order of Jesuits. A brother 
 clergyman was vfith me, and we knelt together and prayed 
 with earnestness, for the light and grace of which we felt 
 in need. 
 
 On the appointed day we knelt together in prayer — and 
 soon afterwards the professor of Canon Law, and the pro- 
 fessor of Dogmatic Theology were announced. At first our 
 conversation was of a general character, but soon turned 
 to those subjects which were congenial to all our feelings. 
 
 Some remarks had been made by me designedly on the 
 subject of the Holy Scriptures, with a view to directing 
 our conversation into a profitable channel ; and I took oc- 
 casion to remark on the ignorance of the Holy Scriptures, 
 so prevalent among the people of Italy — so prevalent in- 
 deed, that it was impossible to argue with them ; and that 
 it seemed "to English minds, a practical illustration of that 
 which was so often asserted in England, namely, that the 
 Church of Rome was opposed to the circulation of the 
 sacred volume. 
 
 The professor of Dogmatic Theology replied by saying, 
 that although it was very true that the people were wholly 
 unacquainted with the nature of the Holy Scriptures, yet 
 it was very incorrect to suppose that the Catholic Church 
 was opposed to their reading them — that the Church set a 
 great value on the sacred volume, and venerated it too 
 highly to let it be used commonly or indiscriminately — 
 that so far from forbidding its circulation and pewisal, the 
 Church permitted it to all, whom she thought likely to 
 profit by it ; and forbade it only to those who, being igno- 
 
208 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 rant, would be likely to pervert and misapply it ; but that 
 it was a great mistake, and indeed a calumny against the 
 Catholic Church, to say that she was opposed to the foil 
 and unrestricted use and circulation of the Scriptures. 
 
 The answer I made to this was, that having resided 
 many years among a Koman Catholic population in Ireland, 
 I had always found that the sacred volume was forbidden 
 to them ; and that since I came to Italy, and especially to 
 Rome, I observed the most complete ignorance of the Holy 
 Scriptures, and that it was ascribed by themselves to a pro- 
 hibition on the part of the Church. 
 
 He at once stated that there must be some mistake, as 
 the book was permitted to all who could understand it, and 
 was in fact, in very general circulation in Rome. 
 
 I said that I had heard the contrary, and that it was 
 impossible to procure a copy of the Holy Scriptures in the 
 Italian tongue, in the city of Rome — that I had so heard 
 from an English gentleman, who had resided there for ten 
 years — that I looked upon the statement as scarcely credi- 
 ble — that I wished much to ascertain the matter for my 
 own inforraation-^that I had one day resolved to test this 
 by visiting every bookselling establishment in the city of 
 Rome — that I had gone to the book-shop belonging to the 
 Propaganda Fide — to that patronised by his holiness the 
 Pope — to that which was connected with the CoUegio 
 Romano, and was patronised by the order of Jesuits^ 
 to that which was established for the supply of English 
 and other foreigners — to those which sold old and second- 
 hand books — and that in every establishment without ex- 
 ception, I found that the Holy Scriptures were not for sale. 
 I could not procure a single copy in the Roman language 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 209 
 
 and of a portable size, in the whole city of Rome ; and that 
 when I asked each bookseller the reason of his not having 
 so important a volume, I was answered in every instance, 
 i proMbito, or non 6 permesso ;^-that the volume was prohi- 
 bited, or that it was not permitted to be sold. I added 
 that Martini's edition was offered to me in two places, but 
 it was in twenty-four volumes, and at a cost of 105 francs, 
 (that is, four pounds sterling) and that under such circum- 
 stances I could not but regard the Holy Scriptures as a 
 prohibited book, at least in the city of Rome. 
 
 He rephed, by acknowledging that it was very probable 
 that I could not find the volume in Rome, especially as 
 the population of Rome was very poor, and not able to 
 purchase the sacred volume ; and that the real reason the 
 Scriptures were not at the booksellers, and also were not 
 in circulation, was, not that they were forbidden or prohi- 
 bited by the Church, but that the people of Rome were too 
 poor to buy them. 
 
 I replied, that they probably were too poor, whether in 
 Rome or in England, to give 105 francs for the book ; but 
 that the clergy of Rome, so numerous and wealthy, should 
 do as we did in England, — ^namely, — form an association 
 for cheapening the copies of the Scriptures. 
 
 He said in reply, that the priests were too poor to cheapen 
 the volume, and that the people were too poor to purchase it. 
 
 I then stated that if this was really the case — that if 
 there was no prohibition against the sacred volume — that 
 if they would be willing to circulate it, and that really and 
 sincerely there was no other objection than the difficulty 
 arising from the price of the book, that difficulty should at 
 once be obviated. I would myself undertake to obtain froni 
 
210 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 England through the Bible Society, any number of Bibles 
 that could be circulated, and that they should be sold at 
 the lowest possible price, — or given freely and gratuitously 
 to the inhabitants of Bx)me. I stated that the people of 
 England loved the Scriptures beyond all else in this vforld, 
 and that it would be to them a source of delight and thanks- 
 giving to give for gratuitous circulation, any number of 
 copies of the sacred volume that the inhabitants of Rome 
 could require. 
 
 He immediately answered, that he thanked me for the 
 generous offer, but that there would be no use in accepting 
 it, as the people of Rome were very ignorant — were- in a 
 state of brutal ignorance — were unable to read anything, 
 and therefore could not profit by reading the Scriptures, 
 even if we supplied them gratuitously. 
 
 I could not conceal from myself, ihat he was prevari- 
 cating with me — that his former excuse of poverty, and 
 this latter excuse of ignorance, were mere evasions. So I 
 asked him, whose fault it was, that the people remained in 
 such universal and unaccountable ignorance. There were 
 above five thousand priests, monks, and nuns, besides cardi- 
 nals and prelates, in thecity of Rome, that the whole popu- 
 lation was only thirty thousand families — that thus there 
 was a priest, or monk, or nun, for every six families in 
 Rome — that thus there was ample means for the education 
 of the people, and I asked therefore, whether the Church was 
 not to blame for this ignorance on the part of the people ? 
 
 He immediately turned from the subject, saying, that 
 the Church held the infallibility of the Pope ; to whom it 
 therefore belonged, to give the only infalHble interpretation 
 of the Scriptures. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 211 
 
 This led the conversation in another direction. If I had 
 prevented this, it vyould have given me the appearance of a 
 partisan, as if I veere chiefly anxious to prove and fasten a 
 fault upon the Church of Eome, instead of one who was 
 searching for information, and was entering on a friendly 
 rather than a controversial conversation. I allowed him 
 therefore to lead me to the question of infallibility, feeling 
 that it was a subject which might be turned to the advan- 
 tage of truth. 
 
 I therefore remarked, somewhat carelessly in manner, 
 that I believed, or at least had heard, that there was much 
 difference of opinion in the Church of Rome, as to the seat 
 of infallibility — that I had heard of some asserting it to 
 reside in the Popes, — ^that others held that it resided in 
 General Councils, while others maintained, that infallibility 
 was the exclusive possession of the Church in general. I said 
 that as far as I could form a judgment upon such a subject, 
 the preponderance in the argument was in favour of those 
 who claimed it for the Popes — that generally all the various 
 advocates seemed to me to argue very powerfully, when 
 disproving the positions of their opponents, but became 
 singularly weak when endeavouring to establish their own ; 
 but still I thought the weight of argument was in favor of 
 the Pope. 
 
 The professor, my opponent, seemed delighted with this 
 admission ; and seemed to take courage from it to express 
 himself very strongly, saying in the broadest and clearest 
 terms, that no man could be a true Catholic — a true mem- 
 ber of that Church, out of which there is no salvation, who 
 did not believe in the entire supremacy and infallibility of 
 the Popes as successors of St. Peter. 
 
212 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 I replied that such a sentiment was by no means universal 
 — that it was so far from being held by the Roman Catho- 
 lics of England and Ireland, that they would look on it as 
 illiberal and untrue, — that they did not hold it, and that 
 no man in those countries would assert that none could be 
 saved unless in the Church of Rome. 
 
 He said that it was impossible my statement could be 
 correct, as no man was a true Catholic, who thought that 
 any one could find salvation out of the Church of Rome. 
 They could not be true CathoUcs. 
 
 I answered, that they seemed as zealous and as true as 
 others, and that there could be no mistake as to my state- 
 ment, for that some of the priests in England and Ireland 
 had often, in conversation with myself, denied the doctrine 
 of exclusive salvation : and that I had known some of the 
 priests make the same statement in the most public manner. 
 
 He again exclaimed, that it was impossible ; no true 
 Catholic could say so ; and if any one said it he was not a 
 true Catholic. , 
 
 I repeated my words, adding that I heard it too often to 
 be mistaken — that the people of England hated exclusive- 
 ness, and bigotry, and narrowness of mind — that the Roman 
 Catholic priests when entering on controversy, were there^ 
 fore always anxious to disclaim all notions of exclusive 
 salvation for the Church of Rome ; and that I had myself 
 been repeatedly a witness to such disclaimers, so that there 
 could be no mistake. "Whether they were sincere in such 
 disclaimers, it was not for me to say ; but all those among 
 them who aimed at any popular influence always disclaimed 
 it. One priest, a Mr. Esmonde, whom I heard disclaiming 
 it on a public platform, was a member of the order of the 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 213 
 
 Jesuits, and therefore, I supposed, a true Catholic member 
 of the Church of Rome. 
 
 He again said with vehemence, that it was impossible ; 
 such persons were not- true Catholics, and certainly were 
 a great injury to the Church. The truth of the Church 
 was, that no man could be saved unless he was a member 
 of the Church of Rome, and believed in the supremacy 
 and infallibility of the Pope. 
 
 He reiterated the same sentiment inlanguage still stronger 
 than before, adding that every one must be damned in the 
 flames of Hell, who did not believe in the supremacy and 
 infallibility of the Pope. 
 
 I could not but smile at all this, while I felt it derived 
 considerable importance from the position of the person 
 who uttered it. He was the chief teacher of Theology in 
 the order of the Jesuits, and the chosen professor of Theo- ■" 
 logy in the Collegio Romano — the university of Rome. 
 I smiled, however, and reminded him, that his words were 
 consigning all the people of England to the damnation of 
 Hell. 
 
 He repeated his words emphatically, and with some as- 
 sumption of manner, as if he thought he could overawe 
 or frighten me by the statement. He said that the people 
 of England would all certainly be damned eternally in Hell, 
 unless they embraced the doctrine of the infallibility of the 
 Pope. He looked at me with an air of triumph. 
 
 " And what," said I, " what is to become of me ? I do 
 not hold, nor can I hold that doctrine ; and do you con- 
 sign me, and numbers of others like me, to everlasting 
 damnation, because I do not hold it ? " 
 
 He did not hesitate a moment in answering, that I could 
 
214 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 not be saved, — that when once I had the opportunity and 
 the power of hearing the truth, and being informed of it, 
 I could not be saved if I did not receive it. But that if I 
 had not the opportunity and power, he could not speak so 
 decisively. 
 
 I then looked at him with much seriousness, and spoke 
 with great deliberation, saying, that truth — the truth of 
 God was the great object of my researches, and that I felt 
 that the whole world was nothing in comparison with it — 
 that I had read the Holy Scriptures of God — ^that I had 
 read the controversial writings of Cardinal Bellarmine, 
 Bossuet, and all the ablest controversialists of the Charch 
 of Rome— that I had read also the works of the ablest 
 English writers in answer to them — that for many years I 
 had been seeking a mastery over the intricacies of these 
 questions — that I had come to Rome to obtain a personal 
 inspection of the Church at its fountain-head — that I had 
 many and long conferences with several priests in Rome on 
 the subject, and that I was absolutely constrained, on a 
 balance of the argument, not only not to believe, but to 
 reject altogether, the doctrine of the supremacy and infalli- 
 bihty of the Pope, — that I therefore was one, who had en- 
 joyed every opportunity and power of adequate informa- 
 tion on the point, and considering that I had arrived fairly 
 and honestly, and to the best of my judgment, and to the 
 conviction of my conscience, at the conclusion to reject this 
 doctrine, I asked him whether he would still consign me to 
 the damnation of Hell ? I spoke with a grave look, and, 
 in a solemn manner, to prevent trifling on so important a 
 question. 
 
 He hesitated and said, that if I had indeed used all pos- 
 
THE JESUITS AT EOME. 215 
 
 sible diligence, as I intimated ; and if I still found my pre- 
 judices invincible — if I was still invincibly ignorant, he 
 would not speak too decidedly. He was unwilling to do 
 so. The Church had made an exception in such a case, 
 but he hoped I should yet see and believe it. His manner 
 in all this shewed that his natural courtesy alone prevented 
 his declaring a decided judgment. 
 
 I felt that quite enough had been said upon this point ; 
 I obtained the judgment of one professor very clearly, and 
 observed that the other professor did not contradict him 
 in the least ; so I suggested that we should turn to some 
 other subject. 
 
 He immediately proposed to me, to argue the question 
 of the possibility of salvation in the Church of England ; 
 suggesting that as no one could be saved out of the Church 
 of Rome, he would prove that no one could be saved in the 
 Church of England ; asking me to enter on the question, 
 and undertaking on his part to prove against me that the 
 Church of England was not the Church of Christ ; and that 
 while I continued a member of the Church of England, I 
 could not be saved. It was a formal challenge. 
 
 I replied, that I could not assert that the Church of 
 England was the Church of Christ ; — that I believed and 
 held she was a part, a member, a branch of the Church of 
 Christ — ^that she held all necessary truth, and that salva^ 
 tion was to be found within her, and that I was prepared 
 to maintain thus far, but no farther. I could not defend 
 the proposition in the form in which he proposed it. 
 
 He said that he would shape his argument so as to em- 
 brace that view, and then, before he -commenced, we agreed 
 that nothing should be asserted respecting the doctrines of 
 
216 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 either Church, by either him or myself, without producing 
 the canon, or decree, or bull, or article of the Church, con^ 
 taining it. He was not to claim for the Church of Rome, 
 nor to ascribe to the Church of England, anything what- 
 ever without producing the authoritative canon of one 
 Church, or the authoritative article of the other. I was 
 pledged in the same way; and thus it was so arranged that 
 there should be no railing accusations, no undue assertions, 
 no claims on one hand, or charges on the other, no asser^ 
 tions or denials ; but all was to proceed on the authoritative 
 documents of the respective Churches. I was careful to 
 have this settled between us before proceeding further, as 
 I perceived he was disposed to enter on the question, more 
 as a practised and confident controversialist, than as a sin- 
 cere enquirer. He seemed a bold, lively, warm-hearted 
 man, experienced in the disputations of the college, and 
 confident in his own resources, and he seemed to have 
 sought me rather in a youthful spirit of emulation, and 
 desire for a polemical tournament. He wished to try 
 his prowess and break a lance with me, and that too in 
 no unkindly or ungenerous spirit. I resolved therefore 
 to meet him, so as to shew him that the argument 
 was not so clearly with him as he had imagined, and 
 that he might find in me his equal in argument, though 
 certainly far from being his equal either in talent or in 
 learning. 
 
 He commenced, according to the method still practised 
 in the classes of the college, namely, that of arguing in the 
 form of a syllogism. He said — 
 The Church of Christ is infaUible, 
 The Church of England confesses herself fallible. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 217 
 
 Therefore the Church of England is not the Church of 
 Christ. 
 
 I at once pointed out the fallacy or error of his argu- 
 ment, shewing, as I had already stated, that the Church of 
 England did not pretend to be the Church of Christ, but 
 only a part or branch or member of it — and that the falli- 
 bility of a part of the Church, was no proof she was not 
 a part of the Church, to which only, as a whole, infallibility 
 could belong. 
 
 He acknowledged this to be sufficient, and said he would 
 state his arguments in another form. 
 
 The Church of Christ, in all her parts, is infallible. 
 The Protestant Church of England confesses herself 
 fallible. 
 
 Therefore the Church of- England is not a part of the 
 Church of Christ. 
 
 I answered that the syllogism was as faulty as the pre- 
 ceding one, but that I would at once meet it by denying 
 his minor ; that is, by denying that the Protestant Church 
 of England confesses herself to be fallible : I was not aware 
 that she had made such a confession. 
 
 He laughed at me good-humouredly, and with a look of 
 triumph, and said that the Church of England had con- 
 fessed it, and he could produce the article. He referred 
 me to the Article XIX. 
 
 I produced the Article and read the words, "As the 
 Churches of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch have 
 erred, so also the Church of Rome hath erred, not only in 
 their living and manner of ceremonies, but also in matters 
 of faith." I said that this Article of the Church of 
 England asserted that other Churches, and the Church of 
 
 h 
 
218 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Rome in particular, had erred, and were fallible, but that 
 she had said nothing of herself; and certainly had not, as 
 his argument supposed and required, confessed herself 
 fallible. 
 
 He frankly acknowledged this to be a sufficient answer, 
 and that his argument had failed, but said he would arrange 
 his syllogism in another form, so as to obviate this. He 
 seemed, however, slightly — ^very slightly annoyed, at finding 
 himself so easily foiled in his first two attempts. He pro- 
 ceeded with great quickness to arrange his argument again. 
 
 The Church of Christ, in all her parts, claims to be 
 infallible. 
 
 The Protestant Church of England does not claim to be 
 infallible. 
 
 Therefore the Church of England is not the Church of 
 Christ. 
 
 The ordinary mode of replying to this, would have been 
 by denying the major, namely, that the Church in all its 
 parts claimed to he infallible ; and this would have opened 
 the whole question of the infallibility of the Church, whe- 
 ther as a whole, in the Church general, or in a part, as the 
 Church of England. I felt however in my secret soul, that , 
 there was another mode of dealing with it. I had in years 
 long past pondered the matter well and thoughtfully, and 
 many years' experience and research alike confirmed my 
 feeling. I had never expressed it in private, nor had I 
 employed it in public : and I thought that the present was 
 an occasion the most fitting possible to advance it. I knew 
 that my present controversy was with an able and learned 
 man and not only so, but was with one of the best in- 
 formed Jesuits in Rome, assisted by another member of 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 219 
 
 the same order, profoundly versed in the Canon Law, and 
 therefore peculiarly competent to deal with my argument. 
 I felt therefore disposed to try it. I am free to confess 
 that I was somewhat nervous in advancing a position so 
 utterly untried, especially considering the talents and learn- 
 ing of my opponents ; hut I felt that He, whose I was and 
 whom I desired to serve, and who had hitherto so wonder- 
 fully sustained me in many an arduous struggle, would turn 
 my success or failure to some good account, by which His 
 truth would be manifested and his gospel glorified. So 
 after some moments' pause for reflection, I requested my 
 opponent to repeat, and kindly to write, his syllogism on 
 paper. 
 
 He wrote it as follows. 
 
 The Church of Christ, in all her parts, claims to be 
 infallible. 
 
 The Church of England does not claim to be infallible. 
 
 Therefore the Church of England is no part of the 
 Church of Christ, 
 
 Having read it carefully, I drew my pen over the word 
 "England," in the minor and in the conclusion, and writ- 
 ing the word " Rome " in its stead, I returned the paper 
 as my answer. It was as follows — 
 
 The Church of Christ, in all her parts, claims to be 
 infallible. 
 
 The Church of Rome does not claim to be infallible. 
 
 Therefore the Church of Rome is no part of the Church 
 of Christ. 
 
 On handing it to him in this altered form, I remarked 
 quietly that if his syllogism was legitimate as against the 
 Church of England, it must be equally legitimate against 
 L 2 
 
220 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 the Church of Rome ; and that therefore he could not 
 deny its conclusiveness. 
 
 The moment he read it he laughed heartily but good- 
 humouredly at me, and said that the Church of Rome did 
 claim infsllibility ; and expressed surprise at my minor, 
 containing a statement so palpably incorrect, and therefore 
 so easily confuted. His companion joined him in his mer- 
 riment, and they both seemed to rejoice in a victory so 
 easily and so completely gained. 
 
 I vfas in no other degree affected by this, than to feel 
 thankful that it gave me a little space to collect myself, 
 and to express my argument with' precision ; I therefore 
 calmly reminded my friends, that the Church of Rome 
 had never on any occasion asserted her own infallibility ; 
 —that some of her members, and some of her advocates, 
 some of her individual divines had, without any authority 
 from her, claimed and asserted it for her and in her name ; 
 but that she had never, in any form whatever, either claimed 
 or asserted it for herself. 
 
 They replied with one voice, that the Church of Rome 
 had always and in all places claimed and asserted her in- 
 fallibility — that it was frequently done ; and so well known 
 and so universally 'recognized and admitted, that they won- 
 dered how I could mean to question it. They spoke with 
 evident surprise, marvelling how I could think of making 
 so strange and unusual an assertion'; and their surprise 
 seemed so natural, that even though they were Jesuits, I 
 felt they were sincere. They were really and truly surprised. 
 
 I answered with cool and deliberate words, shewing by 
 my manner, that I was conscious of the truth and reality 
 of my position, and that I could not be turned from it by 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 221 
 
 a laugh. I answered that there was no decree of any- 
 General Council — that there was'no Bull of any Pope — 
 that there was no Canon or Article of an authoritative 
 nature in the Church of Rome, which asserted or claimed 
 infallibility for that Church. I reminded them, that this 
 my statement was clear and explicit ; that it was of such a 
 nature, that if it was untrue or founded on an untruth, it 
 could most easily be confuted ; and all they had to do was, 
 that which I now challenged them to do — to name the 
 Decree of any Council, or the Bull of any Pope, or the 
 authoritative Canon or Article, which claimed or asserted 
 infalUbility for their Church. I added that the terms of 
 our present conference required, that as he claimed infalli- 
 bility for his Church, he should produce the authoritative 
 document asserting that claim, or he should at least state 
 when and where it was authoritatively asserted. 
 
 After some moments' pause, he said he could produce 
 several instances, and named the Council of Constance, 
 the Council of Basil, the Council of Florence, and several 
 other lesser authorities. I knew each of the decrees to 
 which he referred ; and therefore when he said, that one 
 asserted the supremacy of the Church of Rome, as the 
 mother and mistress of all Churches ; and that another 
 held that every soul was subject to the Roman Pontiff at 
 the peril of his salvation ; and that others still asserted, 
 that every man must be obedient, and owed obedience to 
 the successor of St. Peter ; and others again that it be- 
 longed to the Church of Rome to interpret Holy Scrip- 
 ture — when he said all this, I reminded him that all this 
 was beside the real question — was nothing to the real point 
 before us — that my assertion wasj that no received Decree 
 
222 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 or Bull, or other authoritative document of the Church of 
 Rome, claimed infallibility ; and that he answered me only 
 by producing some which claimed supremacy and authority. 
 
 He said, that supremacy and authority implied infal- 
 libility. 
 
 I answered by an emphatic — ^No ! I said that in Eng- 
 land we felt that the law of the land was supreme and 
 authoritative — that we often felt that a specified law was a 
 bad law, a mischievous law, a law that ought never to have 
 been enacted, and ought immediately to be repealed ; but 
 bad and mischievous as we might think it, we yet felt that it 
 was still the law of the land, and was therefore possessed of 
 a supremacy and authority to which we were bound to yield 
 obedience. But though we ascribe to the law, and to the 
 legislative power of the nation, a supremacy and authority, 
 we prove by our efforts to repeal the obnoxious law, that 
 we do not ascribe infallibility to it. I then said that all 
 the Decrees, Bulls, Canons, &c., to which they referred 
 me, only asserted such a supremacy and authority, as de- 
 manded the subjection and obedience of men to the Church 
 of Rome, or to the Pope as its head ; but not one of them 
 claimed or asserted infalUbility for any party. 
 
 My opponent here did not deny the principle I had thus 
 laid down, but he seemed puzzled and perplexed, at finding 
 that all his documents failed in the precise point of as- 
 serting infallibility. He referred to several others, which 
 he had not already named ; but in a moment after, he gave 
 them up as inadequate ; all, when examined, were disposed 
 of by my preceding answer. 
 
 I shall never fofget, while I live, the spectacle of these 
 two Jesuits, able, learned, and subtle as they were, and 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 223 
 
 •long habituated to controversy, yet so completely perplexed 
 at this turn of the argument, as to be looking at one ano- 
 ther, and consulting and endeavouring to find an answer 
 sufficiently plausible. My opponent, the reverend professor 
 of Theology, seemed a little cast down at first, but soon 
 rallied, and laughed at the perplexity and singularity of his 
 position. He laughed good-naturedly, no longer at me but 
 at himself, and honestly said he had never seen the diffi- 
 culty before — that he had thought the point clearly settled, 
 but that it certainly was not so, — and that he could not see 
 how to answer me. 
 
 His companion, however, the reverend Professor of 
 Canon Law, was not so good-humoured on the occasion. 
 He was excited and annoyed at the failure, and asked con- 
 fidently and warmly— why it was that Protestants were 
 always charging the Church of Rome with arrogance and 
 presumption and blasphemy, for claiming infallibility, if, as 
 would now appear from the argument, she has never claimed 
 it ; and why should it be made by me and others like me, 
 a ground of charge against her, if we really believed she 
 was not liable to that charge ? And he asked somewhat 
 warmly, whether my habit of advancing this charge, was 
 not a sufficient proof that I believed that the Church of 
 Rome really claimed infallibility ? 
 
 J was unwilling to reply to this in the warm spirit in 
 which it was spoken, and I merely said that I had never 
 objected to the Church of Rome, that she had been arro- 
 gant or presumptuous or blasphemous in claiming infalli- 
 bility, or even that she ever claimed it or pretended to it at 
 all. I believed that, as a Church, she never on any occa- 
 sion whatever had advanced such a claim ; I knew indeed 
 
224 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 that her advocates usually claimed it for her ; and that her 
 controversialists generally asserted it for her ; and that the 
 multitude imagined she hoth claimed and possessed that 
 divine prerogative ; hut I also knew that they were not 
 THE Church — that a few learned advocates were not the 
 Church — that a tew suhtle controversialists were not the 
 Church — that the multitude of an ignorant people were not 
 the Church — and I knew also that the Chorch herself 
 had never claimed or asserted it. If I was wrong in this 
 broad statement, I was in presence of those who could 
 easily correct me. They could tell me when and where 
 THE Chdrch had claimed or asserted it. They could name 
 the Council and point to the Decree. They could desig- 
 nate the Pope and point to the Bull. There never was an 
 assertion more easily confuted, if indeed it was capable of 
 being confuted at all. 
 
 They still asserted that the Church was infallible, and 
 claimed to be infalHble, though they seemed in a quiet way 
 to acknowledge that they could not further prove their 
 position. 
 
 I reminded them, that by the terms arranged for our 
 conference, they had no right to claim anything as a doc- 
 trine of their Church, unless they could name or produce 
 the authoritative Decree, Bull, Canon, or Article which 
 asserted it ; and that on the present occasion they assumed 
 infallibihty, as claimed and decreed by the Church, but 
 had altogether failed in adducing the authority for their 
 statement; and I then added, that under those circum- 
 stances I had a right to argue, that if a Church's not 
 claiming to be infallible, was evidence that it was not the 
 Church of Christ, then the Church of Rome, from the cir- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 225 
 
 cumstance of this deficiency, could not be any part of the 
 Church of Christ ; so I asked them how they liked their 
 own process of argument. 
 
 I must say in justice to both these gentlemen, that they 
 bore themselves with good temper and Christian good 
 humour, in this trying and difficult position ; and although 
 at first they seemed to feel keenly, though kindly, their 
 difficulty, yet they joined us — the three others who were 
 present — in a laugh at the^ singularity, and unexpected 
 awkwardness of the position, in which by their own process 
 of argument they were placed. 
 
 Our conversation soon took a more general turn, and did 
 not revert to the main subject proposed for our conference. 
 We soon after separated. 
 
 When a short time afterwards we met again, it was to 
 consider whether the mass was a true and proper and pro- 
 pitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the living and the dead, 
 as stated in the canons of the Council of Trent. Our meet- 
 ing was at the invitation of the reverend professor of Dog- 
 matic Theology, and our argument became unprofitable, 
 and uninteresting to the unlearned, owing to our time being 
 spent chiefly on the question, whether the words " minis- 
 tering to the Lord," in Acts xiii. 2, meant sacrificing or 
 ministering in the ordinary sense of the word. He asserted 
 that it meant sacrificing in the strictness of that word. I 
 maintained that the word was in several places in Scrip- 
 ture applied, even to secular magistrates, whose work 
 and office did not imply or -involve the idea of sacrifice. 
 He acknowledged this, but stated that my argument 
 applied only to the word " ministering," whereas his 
 argument was that the words " ministering to the Lord," 
 L 5 
 
226 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 had another meaning, aiid involved the idea of offering 
 sacrifice. 
 
 We soon after parted, and it never was my good fortune 
 to have the pleasure of again meeting the professor of 
 Theology — except when, on hearing of my approaching 
 departure from Rome, he came to bid me farewell. I was 
 much pleased by his manner, and gratified by his kindness. 
 He spoke with earnestness, and I replied with some words 
 of warm feeling and Christian anxiety. I trust that our 
 meeting and our parting were not vrithout profit to us both. 
 
 NOTE. 
 
 In the entire range of controversy between the Churches 
 of England and Rome, there is no one point more frequently 
 and zealously debated thm—Tke Infallibility of the Church 
 of Rome. 
 
 All who have had much personal experience of this con- 
 troversy, are aware that, as the advocates of Protestantism 
 generally fall back on the Infallibility of the Holy Scriptures 
 as their best and surest defence, so the advocates of Roman- 
 ism usually retreat upon the alleged Infallibility of the 
 Church of Rome as their best and safest refuge. 
 
 I have long felt that this claim to Infallibility on the be- 
 half of the Church of Rome, was a fiction— that that 
 Church herself had never held it, had never asserted it, 
 had never promulgated it, — that it had been invented by 
 her defeated advocates to cover their own failure — the 
 mere device of ingenious and subtle advocates, who, failing 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 227 
 
 in all their arguments, have invented this notion, as a dernier 
 resort, — as a last Tetreat. ' 
 
 In the foregoing conversation this point was brought to 
 issue. I stated that the Church of Rome has never held, 
 asserted, or claimed her own Infallibility — that she has not 
 taught it in any authentic Decree of a Council, nor claimed 
 it in any authoritative Bull of a Pope — that a belief in her 
 InfalUbility is thus no declared Article of Faith in that 
 Church, and that therefore her advocates have no right to 
 defend the assertion of a claim on her behalf which she has 
 never asserted for herself, and which she has never an- 
 nounced to her members. 
 
 My position is, that so far as the belief and claims of 
 the Church of Rome are to be learned from her own autho- 
 rized and authoritative declarations, she does not claim, and 
 does not believe in her own Infallibility. 
 
 That this position has come with surprise upon many of 
 the advocates of Protestantism I am well aware. That it 
 has fallen with no less surprise upon the advocates of Ro- 
 manism, is no more than natural. But the result — namely, 
 a full admission on the part of my opponents, as to the 
 substantial truth and certainty of my position — will be to 
 many a source of surprise, greater and more satisfactory 
 than all. 
 
 My opponents in England, after communicating with my 
 opponents at Rome, have issued the following statement. 
 It is given in its completeness, verbatim, as published bj^ 
 themselves. 
 
 " One of the most novel portions of Mr. Seymour's book is his 
 account of the way in which he makes it appear that the Jesuits 
 admitted that the Catholic Church does not claim infallibility. 
 
22S MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 As it happens, Father Mazio before he had read Mr. Seymour's 
 account of the conversation, had mentioned to us Mr. Seymour's 
 conduct on the morning when this subject was discussed, as 
 strikingly shewing the dishonesty and captiousness of his mind. 
 Comparing his account with Mr. Seymour's, we find that the 
 latter has s|udiously concealed the gi-eater portion of the reply 
 which was made to his charge against the Church of Rome. 
 Mr. Seymour positively declares that his opponent was unable 
 to shew him that the Church does claim infallibility, and there* 
 fore is not the true Church of Christ. He insisted upon having 
 shewn him the particular words of some document absolutely 
 binding upon all Catholics, in which it is dogrnatically stated that 
 the Catholic Church is infallible. 
 
 " Now, -those who are really acquainted with the facts of Ca- 
 tholic history and discipline are aware that the only documents 
 to which all Catholics are absolutely bound, are the decrees of 
 Councils, and the subsequent dogmatic bulls. And it is qui^e 
 true that in these document there is no precise dogmatic state- 
 ment on the subject of the infallibility of the Church. And 
 therefore, when Mr. Seymour, starting aside from the real ques- 
 tions under discussion, insisted on receiving nothing less than 
 such a decree, as a proof that the Church really held the doc- 
 trine, the Jesuit Fathers of course told him there was none such. 
 The Father, however, who was, through the interpretation of 
 his companion, arguing with Mr. Seymour, immediately pointed 
 out to him that the Church herself never professes to hold and 
 teach only what is statedin her documents of absolute au- 
 thority. He told him — we again quote Father Masio—" that 
 the Church expresses her claim to infallibility by all her dog- 
 matic facts and documents in which this principle and tenet ,is 
 either implied, supposed, embodied, alluded to, insisted upon, 
 or more or less expressed. She has expressed such a claim by 
 the implicit belief which she has always exacted in all her doc- 
 trines and dogmatic decrees, under penalty of falling off from 
 faith, and of damnation ; just in the same manner as the Apostles 
 proceeded, who were avowedly endowed with the gift of infal- 
 libility. She has expressed it by her method of condemning 
 and anathematising all who raised the least doubt on any of her 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 229 
 
 doctrines; never allowing what has been onoB defined hy her to 
 be called in question again. She has expressed it in all those 
 documents in which she has declared, through her general 
 Councils and Popes, that she is protected by Christ and guided 
 by the Holy Ghost, always appealing to the Divine promises, 
 that the gates of hell shall not prevail either against her or her 
 doctrine. She has expressed it by the voice of so many of her 
 fathers, who have borne testimony expressly, or in equivalent 
 •terms, to her unerring authority, conferred upon her in matters of 
 faith and morals, though no formal dogmatic definition exists, 
 because this is not necessary to constitute any thing an article of 
 faith. ' That, and that only,' (says Veron, in the Rule of Catho- 
 lic Faith, c. i. k 1), is an [article of Catholic faith which has 
 been revealed in the word of God, and proposed by the Catholic 
 Church to all her children, as necessary to he believed with 
 divine faith. Whether a doctrine be proposed by a general 
 Council, and confirmed by its definite decree, or rest on the 
 universal agreemenlof thefaithful, its authority is the same. The 
 above rule comprises two parts : the first requiring tliat a doc- 
 trine, to be received as an article of faith, be revealed by Al- 
 mighty God ; the second, that it be taught by the Church, either 
 in her general Councils by an express and definitive decree, or 
 practically confirmed by the unanimous assent of the pastors of the 
 Church and the faithful. The second condition, however, pre- 
 supposes the first ' (so continuous at §2); 'for as Christ pro- 
 mised his Church the assistance of his Holy Spirit to teach her 
 and lead her into all truth, it is impossible — unless, as they can- 
 not, these promises fail — that this heavenly-guided Church can 
 ever propose anything as revealed which really has not been 
 so.' .... When, therefore, we are asked, how does the Roman 
 Church express her claim to infallibility, since there is no defini- 
 tive decree of hers on the point, we answer, she does it just in 
 the same way, by the same channels, as the Church of God, the 
 Catholic Church, has ever done in every age." 
 
 " Now all this Mr. Seymour, in his professed account of the 
 conversation, slurs over or entirely omits. He would have us 
 believe that the Jesuits were actually silenced by him ; that the 
 idea he urged was a novelty to them ; that it was the first time 
 
230 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 in their lives they had ever reflected on the fact that the Church 
 has never formally decreed herown infallibility ; in. short, that 
 if they would have but foUovped out the difficulty he so acutely 
 brought forward, they would at this moment have been. Pro- 
 testants of the stamp of Mr. Hobart Seymour himself ! In fact, 
 he has discovered a mare's nest, and none but those who are 
 agape for every wonderment and absurdity which can be con- 
 cocted against the Jesuits, will discern any thing in the affair 
 except a proof of Mr. Seymour's want of candour in argument 
 and of honesty in narration. Those who would know how 
 strongly and repeatedly the Catholic Church has implied and 
 asserted her claim to infallibility — though she has not issued 
 any formal decree — need but read the canons and decrees of the 
 Council of Trent, or the Catechism of the same Council. The 
 Catechism, indeed, does positively assert that the Church is in- 
 fallible ; and considering how great is its authority, its decla- 
 ration comes as nearly as possible to a distinct dogmatic decree, 
 absolutely binding on all the faithful. " Etenim Spiritus Sanc- 
 tus," says the Tridentine Catechism, " qui Ecclesias praesidet, 
 eam non per aliud genus ministrorum quam per apostolicum 
 gubernat. Qui Spiritus primum quidera apostolis tributus est, 
 deinde vero summa Dei benignitate semper in Ecclesia mansit. 
 Sed quemadmodum hoec ana Ecclesia errare non potest in fidei ac 
 morum disciplina tradenda, cum a Spiritu Sancto gubernetur, ita 
 caeteras omnes, quse sibi Ecclesise nomen arrogant, ut qua? dia- 
 boli spiritu ducantur, in doctrinse et morum perniciosissimis 
 erroribus versari necesse est." (De Symb. Fid. art. ix. c. 19.) 
 These words also, it will be observed, not only assert that the 
 Church is infallible, but declare from what source her enemies, 
 such as Mr. Seymour, draw their inspiration." 
 
 There appears upon the face of all this the admission — 
 the full and open admission, that the Church of Rome has 
 never formally defined, and claimed infallibility. There is 
 no authoritative Decree of any Council— no authoritative 
 Bull of any Pope, asserting the infallibility of the Church 
 of Rome. This is the very position I desired to establish. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 231 
 
 and this is the clear admission of ray opponents. They 
 say;— 
 
 " The only documents to which all Catholics are absolutely 
 hound, are the Decrees of Councils, and the subsequent dog- 
 matic Bulls, And it is quite true that in these documents there 
 is no precise dogmatic statement on the subject of the infallibility of 
 the Church, and therefore when Mr. Seymour, starting aside 
 from the real questions under discussion, insisted on receiving 
 nothing less than such a Decree as a proof that the Church 
 really held the doctrine, the Jesuit Fathers of course told him 
 
 THERE WAS NONE SUGH." 
 
 Here is the broad admission that the members of the 
 Church of Rome are bound absolutely to believe only cer- 
 tain Decrees and Bulls. And that in those Decrees and 
 Bulls which alone bind them, there is no claim of infalli- 
 bility for that Church. The inference is inevitable, namely, 
 that the notion of the infallibility of the Church is not an 
 article of faith, but a mere matter of opinion, a» open ques- 
 tion among the members of that Church. 
 
 But while this important point is thus fully admitted, 
 yet in order to lessen the force of the admission, and to 
 weaken the inferences deducible from it, it is intimated 
 that although the infallibility of the Boman Church is not 
 defined, settled, or claimed in any authoritative Decree or 
 Bull, yet it is implied and supposed, somewhere else. They 
 say — 
 
 " The Church expresses her claim to infallibility by all her 
 dogmatic/acfa and documents, in which this principle and tenet 
 is either implied, supposed, embodied, alluded to, insisted upon, or 
 more or less expressed." 
 
 It is evident here, that being unable to prove the claim 
 to infallibility by the Decrees and Bulls which are autho- 
 ritative, we are referred to that class of " Facts and Do- 
 
232 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 cutnents," which are not authoritative. And then having 
 come to this non-authoritative source, we are informed, 
 not that this infallibiUty is clearly defined, settled, claimed 
 as an article of the faith of Rome to be received and be- 
 lieved by her members, but only that it is therein " im- 
 plied, supposed, embodied, alluded to, insisted upon, or 
 more or less expressed." In other words, it is confessedly 
 no more than an implication, a supposition, an allusion, in 
 documents confessedly not authoritative ! 
 
 But if it be intended to convey the impression that 
 although this doctrine is neither asserted nor claimed in 
 the authoritative Decrees and Bulls, yet that it is implied 
 or supposed or alluded to j« tJiem — if it be intended to 
 convey this, then I answer by saying — Let them name or 
 produce such authoritative Decree or Bull. My oppo- 
 nents at Rome had every opportunity for producing such, 
 if they were in existence. They did produce some claiming 
 authority and supremacy for their Church, and they pro- 
 duced them specifically as "implying" infallibility, but 
 they afterwards withdrew them as inadequate, as stated in 
 the foregoing narrative of the discussion. And now, if my 
 opponents in England are aware of any authoritative Decree 
 " implying, supposing, embodying " the infallibiUty of 
 Rome, — if they know of any authoritative Bull " alluding 
 to it, insisting upon it, or expressing it," let them name or 
 produce it. 
 
 But they can neither name the one, nor produce the 
 other. And they know it. Conscious — entirely conscious 
 that they can adduce nothing that bears the least sem- 
 blance of authority, or could stand the least examination — 
 conscious that they have no document whatever compiled 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 233 
 
 or written by anything that has the shadow of authority, 
 they now tell us, as their best excuse and last resort, that 
 there is no necessity for any Bull or Decree, or any written 
 docunient whatever. In other words there is no necessity 
 for any written eyidence ! They say — 
 
 " Whether a doctrine be proposed by a General Council, and 
 confirmed by its definitive decree — or, rest on the universal 
 agreement of the faithful, its authority is the same. The above 
 rule comprises two parts : the first requiring that a doctrine, to 
 he received as an article of faith, be revealed by Almighty God ; 
 the second, that it be taught by the Church, eitherin her General 
 Councils by an express and definitive decree, or, practically 
 confirmed by the unanimous assent of the pastors of the Church 
 and the faithful. 
 
 " When, therefore, we are asked, — How does the Roman 
 Church express her claim to infallibility, since there is no de- 
 finitive decree of hers on the point, we answer, she does it just in 
 the same way, by the same channels, as the Church of God, the 
 Catholic Church, has ever done in every age." 
 
 It is here plainly admitted that the Church of Rome has 
 " no definitive decree on the subject " of infallibility. It 
 is also plainly admitted that there is nothing for it but un- 
 written evidence — a supposed agreement of the faithful ! 
 And finally, in a sentence which clearly recognises the fact 
 that the Church of Rome is not identical with the Catholic 
 Church, it is stated the Church of Rome claims infallibility 
 in the same way as " the Church of God, the Catholic 
 Church," has ever claimed it. The same might be said of 
 the Episcopal Church of England — of the Presbyterian 
 Church of Scotland — of all the Churches of Christendom. 
 They have all been silent alike ! 
 
 The reference to the Tridentine Catechism is neutralized 
 by their own admission that it is not of absolute authority. 
 
234 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 The history of that Catechism is as follows. During the 
 sittings of the Council of Trent it was stated, that there 
 were almost as many catechisms as there were provincesj 
 in the Church of Rome ; and that the varieties or diversi- 
 ties of thw' contents, led to much difference of doctrine 
 and of discipline in various districts. It was therefore 
 suggested as most desirable that one should be provided 
 which should supersede all others, and promote unanimity 
 and uniformity. The Council seemed to approve of the 
 suggestion, and directed certain parties to prepare the 
 draft of such a catechism as the Council could sanction and 
 authorise. But before this draft was prepared, the Council 
 was dissolved. 
 
 The persons who were to have prepared this catechism, 
 then called others to their assistance — each person writing 
 on a separate subject or article, and having completed their 
 work, published it with the consent of the Pope. This 
 catechism, which was never sanctioned or authorised or 
 even so much as seen by the Council of Trent, has no 
 
 AUTHOBITY WHATEVER. 
 
 It is precisely as if the House of Commons in England 
 gave directions to the Law-officers, to prepare the draft of a 
 Bill to be laid before the House for its consideration ; — as 
 if the Parliament was then dissolved before the Bill had 
 been prepared, and as if the Bill was then afterwards 
 printed and published. It would of course embody the 
 views of the Law-officers who compiled it, but would pos- 
 sess NO AUTHORITY WHATEVER, as it had ucver passed the 
 Legislature. This is precisely the position of the " Ro- 
 man Catechism," so often, yet so erroneously designated, as 
 " the Catechism of the Council of Trent." 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 235 
 
 It now only remains for me to notice the statement, that 
 I had no right to require authoritative Decrees and Bulls 
 in determining this question. 
 
 The facts and the reasons are simply these. For some 
 years past, many and grave charges have been advanced 
 against the Church of Eome. She has been accused of 
 holding that faith is not to be kept with heretics — that 
 heretics may be persecuted even to death — that sin may be 
 committed, when for the advantage of the Church — that 
 the Pope has power to relieve subjects from their oaths of 
 allegiance — that he has authority from heaven to depose 
 heretical, Protestant, or disobedient monarchs. These and 
 many other fearful things have been imputed to the Church 
 of Rome. And many historical facts are adduced, and 
 many theological writers of the Church of Rome are cited 
 as evidences of the truth of these charges. 
 
 The answer, with which all these accusations have been 
 met, has been a broad denial, accompanied by a demand 
 or challenge to produce the authoritative Decrees of Coun- 
 cils, or Bulls of Popes, which assert or establish such doc- 
 trines ; — the advocates of the Church of Rome always assert- 
 ing that no doctrine should be imputed to them which has 
 not been formally determined by the authoritative formu- 
 laries of the church. 
 
 This principle has justice in it. Whatever doctrine has 
 not been asserted by a Church, ought not to be ascribed to 
 that Church. It is an open question. But neither should 
 any one claim for his Church any doctrine which she has 
 not claimed for herself. An enemy ought not to impute, 
 nor a friend claim for, a Church, any dogma which she has 
 not avowed for herself. 
 
236 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Acting on this principle ; resolved to make no undue or 
 unproved accusation, and prepared to reject any unfair or 
 unproved claim ; I proposed that we should assert nothing 
 of either Church without producing the authoritative De- 
 crees and Bulls of the Church of Rome, or the authoritative 
 Articles of the Church of England. 
 
 Such were the agreed terms of the discussion. The 
 result is now before the world. And the Infallibility of the 
 Church of Rome can no more, after this, be the defence or 
 refuge of the advocates of that Church. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 237 
 
 CHAPTER VIII. 
 
 CONVERSATION WITH THE FROFESSOB OF CANON LAW — THE FETE AT 
 THE JESUITS' CHURCH, CLOSING THE YEAR — THE QUESTION OP IN- 
 FALLIBILITY RESIDING IN Jl COUNCIL OR IN A POPE— SEVEN SIGNS OR 
 TESTS BY WHICH TO DISCERN WHEN THE POPE IS INFALLIBLE AND 
 WHEN FALLIBLE — THE ALLEGED UNSUITABLENESS OF THE SCRIPTURES 
 AS A RULE OF FAITH — THE SAME ARGUMENT APPLIED TO THE PAPAL 
 DECISIONS. 
 
 The prospect of an elaborate conference with the reverend 
 professor of Canon Law in the CoUegio Romano, was one 
 of considerable interest to me. It had been promised, that 
 he should be informed of ray anxiety for information as to 
 the means or test by which I should be enabled to ascertain 
 an infallible Bull from a fallible one — to know a Pope pro- 
 nouncing infallibly from one pronouncing fallibly — to dis- 
 tinguish a decision ex cathedrd, from one non ex cathedrd. 
 The point was one of no inconsiderable interest, and I felt 
 no little pleasure in the anticipation of entering on it, with 
 one who was so competent to deal with it — one who, from 
 his learning, could state all that could best be offered on 
 the question, and at the same time one, who from his posi- 
 tion in the college, would add a certain authority to his state- 
 
238 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 inents. This professor was a Jesuit, one of the ahlest and 
 most accomplished of his order, and certainly one of the 
 most elegant and most accomplished at Rome. I should 
 have felt somewhat nervous at the prospect of this conver- 
 sation, were it not that I had already had the good fortune 
 of making his agreeahle acquaintance ; and that the point 
 to he considered, was one in which all the difficulties of 
 the argument would necessarily be on his side. 
 
 The professor came on the appointed day, accompanied 
 as usual by a lay-brother, and dressed in all the peculiar 
 costume of the order of the Jesuits. 
 
 Our conversation commenced, by my thanking him for 
 his kindness, in having made such gratifying arrangements 
 to enable my wife and myself and one of our friends, to 
 witness the f6te at the church of Gesu, which belongs to 
 the order. It was a ffite celebrated on the last day of the 
 year. His Holiness the Pope had arranged to attend and 
 to sing the Te Deum, as an act of public thanksgiving, on 
 the part of the Head, of: the Church on earth, for the bless- 
 ings and mercies of the year that was then passing away 
 for ever. He attended in state. He was accompanied by 
 the Cardinals. The Swiss guards were arranged to preserve 
 order. The congregation, which was chiefly EngUsh, was 
 large. We were conducted by one of the Order, through a 
 passage within the wall of the Church, by which we entered 
 a small apartment, and were then led through a series of 
 chambers, apparently those of a convent, till we were placed 
 in a small gallery, in the best possible position for observing 
 all, while we were ourselves beyond the observation of any. 
 As seen from this position, nothing could surpass the 
 picturesque beauty of the spectacle, especially at the moment 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 239 
 
 of the elevation of the Host. The choir or chancel,' with 
 the High Altar, was splendidly illuminated. The high 
 Priest, and his assistants, were before the altar in their 
 most magnificent robes. Twelve youths from the College 
 of the Propaganda Fide, formed two lines connecting the 
 corners or horns of the altar with the rails of the chancel. 
 They were clothed entirely from head to foot in scarlet, 
 and held gigantic candles of wax in their hands. Those 
 candles were about five feet long, and not less than five or 
 six inches in circumference: and as the priest proceeded 
 with the prayer of consecration, they all knelt still and 
 motionless as marble statues ; and as the priest elevated 
 the Host they all gracefully drooped their heads, and slowly 
 leaned forward their kneeling bodies till they almost touched 
 the ground, and bent their large candles all at the same 
 instant, and with the most practised regularity, till every 
 candle seemed to bow in unison like things of life, in devout 
 adoration to the present and visible divinity. As the eye 
 wandered at this moment, from our little gallery, whence 
 we could view the whole space of the Church — as it ranged 
 from the splendid illumination of the High Altar, and rested 
 on the oificiating priest in robes of white silk, damasked 
 with the richest foliage of gold, and then fell upon the 
 twelve youths in scarlet, bowing gracefully to the earth 
 with their gigantic candles, and then fell upon the aged 
 Pontiif, the alleged Vicar of Christ, and anointed Head 
 of the Church on earth, and then looked on the long array 
 of Cardinals, those anointed princes of the Church, robed 
 entirely in scarlet, and then strayed along the congregation, 
 of which the ladies were clothed in black and veiled, and 
 the men were mostly in the same colour, while the Swiss 
 
240 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 guards were arranged among them, relieving the mass of 
 black costume, with the brilliant scarlet and yellow of their 
 peculiar and antique uniform — as our eyes wandered over 
 all this scene in this magnificent and noble Church, with 
 its antique masbles and costly decorations, and its vaulted 
 roof was filled with the sweetest and most beauteous music, 
 we felt that we had never witnessed anything at Rome, in 
 the way of a religious fete, so perfect in its arrangements, 
 so picturesque in its appearance, and in such good taste 
 and perfect keeping in all its accompaniments. It was the 
 perfection of a religious spectacle, and exhibited the good 
 taste and the worldly wisdom of the order of the Jesuits. 
 
 We had great reason to thank some members of the order 
 for their arrangements in our favour. The only persons 
 similarly favoured on this occasion, were an Italian princess 
 and her companion, who alone shared with us the privacy 
 and the advantage of this little gallery. Whatever were 
 their motives .for this kindness — and in truth they were 
 scarcely concealed, seeing that the Cardinal- Vicar had 
 offered a mass with the intention to move God to facilitate 
 our conversion^ — ^it shewed a good disposition on their part, 
 and gave to us on this, as on some other occasions, increased 
 facilities for observation. We thanked the professor, as 
 the courtesy and kindness of some of his friends of the 
 order deserved at our hands. 
 
 My wife expressed her thanks in better terms than I 
 could command, at the same time giving lively utterance to 
 the gratification derived from the ceremony, as a beautiful 
 spectacle ; and saying that its beauty was such, and that 
 there was so much of the picturesque in the coup d'ceil, 
 that if transferred to canvass, it would make a most attrac- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 241 
 
 tive picture, — that there was exceeding beauty as well as 
 solemnity in it. ' 
 
 He observed in return, that it certainly was a beautiful 
 and most charming sight to any one, but that it was much 
 more so to those, wh& like himself viewed the Pope and 
 the assembled Cardinals, as the head and representatives 
 of the Catholic Church — the whole Church of God, and 
 who looked on the beautiful spectacle, as the act of the 
 Church of Jesus Christ singing their Te Deum, in praise" 
 and thankfulness, for all the mercies and goodness they 
 had received during the departing year. 
 
 We said that we could quite understand the feeling in 
 which he had viewed it, and which he. had so appropriately 
 expressed — and that we fully appreciated that feeling, 
 especially as we understood that such was the nature and 
 object of the ceremonial, as designed by those who had 
 taken part in the spectacle. However we might differ from 
 him, as to the details of the ceremonial or ritual portion 
 of the spectacle, we were sure to agree with him, as to the 
 Christian duty and privilege of public thanksgiving for 
 mercies received. If we could not agree with him in the 
 details, we could certainly agree with him in the spirit of 
 the act. 
 
 Our conversation then turned to my previous meeting 
 
 with our mutual friend, the reverend Signer . I stated 
 
 that he had given me much -useful and important informa- 
 tion, of which previously I was not in possession ; — that in 
 reference to the worship of the Virgin Mary, he had stated 
 matters of considerable interest — and that we had a long 
 and deeply-interesting conversation, on the all-important 
 subject of infallibility — on the necessity for its existence, 
 
 M. 
 
242 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 and on the place or seat of its existence ; and that, sup- 
 posing infallibility to exist either in a council or in a pope, 
 I was disposed to go with him in thinking, that if it existed 
 in either, the weight of argument seemed to preponderate 
 in favour of the Pope. 
 
 He was much pleased at this admission on my part, and 
 expressed himself as if he had understood me to state 
 absolutely, my belief in the existence of infallibility in the 
 Pope. He said I had admitted, that the preponderance of 
 argument was with that opinion. 
 
 I reminded him that my observations were only on the 
 supposition, that such infallibility did really exist in either 
 
 a council or a pope ; but that the reverend Signor had 
 
 by no means satisfied me, that it really existed in either the 
 one or the other. Still I could freely say that, assuming it 
 to exist in either a council or a pope, my judgment was in 
 favour of the pope ; and my reason was, that all parties on 
 this particular point, were fond of adverting to the words 
 of our Lord to Peter — " Thou art Peter, and upon this 
 rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall 
 not prevail against it." All those in the Church of Eome, 
 who claimed infallibility for that Church, appeared to base 
 it on these words, and on the words, " Feed my sheep," 
 and " Feed my lambs," which seem spoken to Peter, and 
 to have connection with Peter; and therefore they appeared 
 to me to prove the infallibility of the popes, as successors 
 of Peter, much more naturally than the infallibility of 
 councils, which are not in any way connected with these 
 words. I said that I could not adopt the Roman Catholic 
 interpretation of the passage concerning the rock, because 
 I thought that our Lord meant to convey that He built his 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 243 
 
 Church on the fact, that he was the Son of God as con- 
 fessed by Peter, and not on Peter at all ; but that, on the 
 supjjosition of the Roman Catholic interpretation being 
 correct, namely, that the words referred to Peter, I thought 
 that if the words involved infallibility, they involved the 
 infallibility of Peter, and his successors the popes, rather 
 than the infallibility of councils. 
 
 The professor as a member of the order of Jesuits — for 
 that order hold universally at Rome, the very loftiest claims 
 and pretensions to infallibility, on the part of the popes, as 
 contradistinguished from those who hold that the infalli- 
 bility belongs to the general councils — shewed evident plea- 
 sure at my statement, and he appeared by his sparkling 
 eye and joyous look, to think that if 1 was not already a 
 proselyte to his Church, I was at least in a fair way for 
 such a result, and that it remained for him to conduct me 
 to the final goal. He expressed himself as greatly gratified 
 with my views upon the subject, and vrith the conclusion 
 at which I had arrived. 
 
 I said that the difficulty betvpeen the reverend Signor 
 
 and myself, arose from his pressing me much to join 
 
 the Church of Rome, to abandon the Church of England, 
 and to fling aside all my difficulties and objections, whether 
 of mind or feeling, against the Church of Rome — to fling 
 them all aside, and no longer doubting, debating or argu- 
 ing, to throw them on the responsibility of the infallible 
 tribunal, which had infallibly "decided them. I added that 
 in reply to this request on the part of our friend, I had 
 asked him whether he could tell me, supposing infallibility 
 to reside in the pope, how 1 could be enabled to judge with 
 infallible certainty, when the pope decided ex cathedrd, and 
 M 2 
 
244 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 when he decided non ex cathedrd — when he was infallible 
 and when fallible. 1 said that this was necessary, inasmuch 
 as different popes had issued different and opposing bulls 
 
 — that our mutual friend, the reverend Signer had 
 
 expressed himself as unable to explain the matter fully, 
 and had promised that the professor himself should explain 
 it to me. ' 
 
 He replied that the pope was infallible — that it belonged 
 to him as the successor of St. Peter, to be the head of that 
 Church, which was to be so founded and protected, that 
 the gates of Hell should never prev!iil against it — that our 
 Lord's promise in these words secured that this Church 
 should be infallible — that this favoured and privileged 
 Church, was the Holy and Catholic Church of Rome, 
 whose first bishop was St. Peter, and whose successive 
 bishops, as the successors of St. Peter, were the infallible 
 interpreters and expounders of her doctrines, the vicars of 
 Christ, and the infallible heads of the Church. 
 
 I said in reply to a great deal that fell from the professor 
 upon this point, that the question at issue between the 
 
 reverend Signor and myself, was not whether the 
 
 popes were infallible, but how and by what means I could 
 discern a fallible decision from an infallible one. I re- 
 minded the professor, that he was of course aware that the 
 popes were not always safe guides ; — that pope Liberius had 
 avowed Arianism, and that pope Honorius was a Monothe- 
 lite, and that as popes were not exempt from the worst of 
 heresies, as these two examples demonstrated, so the real 
 difficulty was to find some certain test by which to know 
 when a pope was fallible, and when he was infallible. 
 
 He answered in a tone and with a manner, that seemed. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 245 
 
 as I thought at the moment, to betray a shade of amioy- 
 ance at my pointed allusion to Liberius and Honorius. He 
 said however,' that Liberius was actin_g under restraint, and 
 that he was not a free agent when he avowed the heresy of 
 the Arians, and that therefore such avowal was not to be 
 regarded as his real opinion. He said also that Honorius 
 was thought too mild and lax in not punishing the Mono- 
 thelites, and that it was on account of this that he was 
 called a Monothelite, and not on account of his holding 
 their heresy. He concluded by saying, that if either of 
 those popes had proceeded to decide anything ex cathedra, 
 the decision would then have been infallible. 
 
 I replied, that my reading of the histories of Liberius 
 and Honorius compelled me to adopt a very different 
 opinion as to the orthodoxy of these popes — that I was 
 fully convinced that one of them was really an Arian, and 
 that the other was as really a Monothelite — that I was 
 aware that the order of Jesuits, as the supporters of papal 
 infallibility, had advanced the statements which the pro- 
 fessor had just expressed, in order to save, if possible, the 
 infallibility of these two popes, but that I felt that they had 
 failed ; as all history was clearly against them. However, 
 I continued, your own view shews that they acted and gave 
 their decisions under undue restraint, or under .a misplaced 
 lenity ; and therefore your own view shews, that the popes 
 are not at all times, and under all circumstances, infallible. 
 
 This the professor hesitated to acknowledge. It was 
 more in his manner than in his matter. He merely said 
 that when the Pope uttered his decision ex cathedKd, there 
 could be no doubt of the infallibility of the decision. This 
 at once conducted , our conversation to the precise point. 
 
246 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 which I felt most anxious to open, and I saw that there 
 could be no difficulty in entering on it, but I desired much 
 to do so without any appearance of a controvei'sial spirit on 
 my part. I was anxious to stand in bis eyes as one look- 
 ing for information and open to conviction, rather than as 
 one disposed to controvert and impugn his statements ; 
 and I was really most desirous of learning the very point 
 now before us, as I had never yet been able to find any- 
 thing on the subject, in the writings of any divines of any 
 Church. It was a subject altogether new to me, and I 
 feared that any preliminary conversation might awaken 
 suspicions or doubts in his mind, which might prevent his 
 being as communicative as my object required ; and now, 
 as on many another occasion during these conferences, I felt 
 fully the necessity of turning in secret prayer to Him, 
 whom I desired to serve, that he might give me the power 
 to restrain my naturally controversial temper, and the wis- 
 dom and the spirit to speak as became me. I felt nervous 
 and diffident of myself, perhaps more than I ought, when 
 I found myself under circumstances which prevented my 
 speaking as plainly and as strongly as I otherwise might, 
 lest I should appear as a controversialist, rather than as an 
 enquirer ; and especially when I felt myself in the presence 
 of men whom I had learned to regard, whether rightly or 
 wrongly, as the most able, the most learned, and the most 
 subtle controversialists of the Church of Rome. The result 
 did not always justify my fears, but those fears led me to 
 look more frequently for the guidance and the wisdom of 
 Him, " from whom cometh down every good and every 
 perfect gift." 
 
 I said, that supposing the pope to be infallible whenever 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 247 
 
 he uttered a decision or issued a bull ex cathedra, it was 
 still necessary to know how we were to ascertain a decision 
 ex cathedrd, from a decision non ex cathedrd, — how, amidst 
 the volumes of opposite and conflicting bulls of different 
 popes, we were to know an infallible bull from a fallible 
 one ; or, as persons in England usually express it, how are 
 we to ascertain when a pope is infallible, and when he is 
 falUble. 
 
 He at once met the difficulty, and said that it was of 
 very easy solution. He stated that there were certain 
 requisites, certain essentials, which were characteristic of a 
 bull ex cathedrd, and without which it could not be received 
 as ex cathedrd, and that these characteristics were very 
 easily ascertaine'd. He added, that these requisites or 
 essentials were seven in number, and that he feared to 
 weary me by their detail, but that otherwise he should be 
 happy to enter on them. 
 
 I did not fail to express with all fitting courtesy, my 
 wishes that he would continue so interesting a detail, and 
 I expressed the obligations I should feel for such valuable 
 information, especially as, coming from one holding his im- 
 portant position at Rome, it could not but possess much of 
 authority in my eyes, and would be sure to possess the 
 same in the eyes of others. 
 
 He then proceeded to state, that there was no real diffi- 
 culty in ascertaining, when and under what circumstances 
 the decision of the pope was to be received as infallible : 
 that there were certain requisites or essentials ; and that 
 the presence or absence of these would be an adequate test 
 by which to ascertain the point ; that these requisites or 
 essentials were seven in number, and were all very clear 
 
248 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 and very easy to be recognized. He then described them 
 in detail. 
 
 I. It was necessary in the first place, that before com- 
 posing and issuing the bull, jthe pope^should have opened 
 a communication vpith the bishops of the universal Church 
 — that in such communication he should ask their prayers 
 to the Almighty, that the Holy Spirit might fully and 
 infallibly guide him, so as to make his decision, the decisioji 
 of inspiration. He added that by thus previously asking 
 the prayers of the bishops, he would obtain the prayers of 
 the universal Church for Divine assistance, before he pro- 
 ceeded to form or publish his decision. 
 
 I asked him how, seeing that there was a necessity for 
 this previous communication on the part of the pope with 
 the bishops — how I was to inform myself, that this requi- 
 site or essential had already been borne in mind. He merely 
 replied, that it was very easy to be ascertained, and then 
 proceeded to the second particular. 
 
 II. It was necessary in the second place, that before 
 issuing the bull containing his decision, the pope should 
 carefully seek all possible and desirable information, touch- 
 ing the special matter which was under consideration, and 
 which was to be the subject of his decision. And that he 
 should be specially careful to possess himself of all avail- 
 able information from those persons, who were residing in 
 the district affected by the opinion called in question, and 
 who were found faithful in that district ; that so the pope 
 might have all the requisite information for an infallible 
 decision, from the very district in which the opinion, on 
 which the decision was sought, had its origin or its existence. 
 
 I asked in reference to this — how I was to be assured 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 249 
 
 that the pope was thvjs rightly and fully informed — that 
 he had sought and obtained the required information, and 
 was thus capacitated for proceeding to issue the bull? 
 He replied as before, that there was not the least diffi- 
 culty in ascertaining this, and so passed on to the third 
 particular. 
 
 III. He said that a further requisite or essential was, 
 that the bull should not only be formal, but should be au- 
 thoritative, and should claim to be authoritative : that it 
 should be issued not merely as the opinion or judgment of 
 the pope, in his mere personal capacity, but as the decisive 
 and authoritative judgment of one, who was the Head of 
 that Church, which was the mother and mistress of all 
 Churches, to whom all Christians owed subjection and 
 allegiance, and who was the living voice of infallibility, and 
 who as such, had the power and the authority, to pronounce 
 infallibly the decision required. 
 
 I remarked, that this requisite could be easily ascertained, 
 as it' must necessarily appear on the face of the bull, the 
 only difficulty being, to obtain a true copy of the bull. He 
 then stated the fourth particular. 
 
 IV. It was again necessary, that the bull should be 
 promulgated tmiversally ; that is, that the bull should be 
 addressed to all the bishops of the universal church, in 
 order that through them its decision might be delivered 
 and made known to all the members or subjects of the 
 whole Church, The pope__wasthe fountain-head of all 
 episcopal jurisdiction, so that there can be no episcopal 
 jurisdiction but from the pope ; and as episcopacy is the 
 only channel through which every grace flows to the 
 Church, so it is necessary that ' the bull containing the 
 
 ^' ' MS, 
 
250 MORNINGS 'AMONG 
 
 decision of the pope, be addressed to all the bishops of the 
 universal Church. 
 
 I observed on this point, that the superscription or title 
 of the bull, would at once show whether this essential 
 was forthcoming ; and I begged the reverend professor to 
 proceed. He then passed on to the fifth requisite. 
 
 V. He stated that another essential was, that the bull 
 should be universally received ; that is, should be accepted 
 by all the bishops of the whole Church, and accepted by 
 them as an authoritative and infallible decision — that, after 
 promulgation by the pope, it should be accepted and pro- 
 mulgated by all the bishops as authoritative and infallible, 
 or at least should be simply accepted by them without 
 formal promulgation, or even tacitly permitted by them 
 without opposition, which is held to be a sufficient accep- 
 tance in a legal sense. 
 
 I said that this was a point very difficult to be ascer- 
 tained. I knew not of anything more difficult to ascertain 
 with satisfaction, than whether any given bull was received 
 and promulgated, or simply received without promulgation, 
 or only permitted without opposition in any given country. 
 Some are received in Spain, which are rejected in France ; 
 and some are received in France, which are rejected in 
 England and Ireland ; and some are rejected in all these, 
 and yet are said to be accepted in Italy ; and the assertions 
 made on all sides upon this fact were so contradictory, that 
 I knew nothing so difficult to be ascertained to satisfaction. 
 It opens out a prodigious sphere of inquiry and disputation. 
 He smiled, and assured me there was not the least diffi- 
 culty, and went on to the sixth particular. 
 
 VI. Another characteristic, he said, was of immense 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 251 
 
 importance, indeed more absolutely essential than any lie 
 had as yet named, viz. The matter or question, upon 
 which the decision was to be made, and which was there- 
 fore to be the subject-matter of the bull, must be one touch- 
 ing faith or morals ; that is, it must concern the purity of 
 faith, or the morality of actions. And this necessity arose 
 from the fact, that faith and morality are the matters upon 
 which infallibility was designed to be exercised, and,for 
 the preservation of which this infallibility was given to 
 the Head of the Church. 
 
 I remarked that this was very reasonable, and that I 
 fully acquiesced in it ; but that an opinion prevailed very 
 generally in England, that the Church of Rome had 
 strained " faith " and " morality," to include all matters 
 of fact, even matters of history, whenever they seemed to 
 bear upon any question of " faith " or " morality ; " — that 
 this was practically illustrated in the celebrated controversy 
 between the Jesuits and the Jansenists, where the point at \ 
 issue was the mere matter of fact, whether the opinions 
 condemned by both parties, were really contained in a 
 specified book. I said that a difficulty might arise in pro- 
 secuting our enquiries, as to whether this essential was 
 there. He seemed a little annoyed at this allusion, so I 
 begged he would be so kind as to proceed to the seventh 
 particular. 
 
 VII. This was the last of the series. He said it was 
 essential in the last place, that the Pope should be free — 
 perfectly free from all exterior influence, so as to be under 
 no exterior compulsion or conceit. He stated that the 
 bull or decision of Pope Liberius possessed the other essen- 
 tials, but that this one was wanting. That pope had acted 
 
252 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 under compulsion— runder a fear of his life, and therefore 
 as he was not free, his decision could not be regarded as 
 ex cathedra. That bull, thus issued, was full of error. The 
 pope therefore must be free from external influence or con- 
 straint, in order to his decision being received as infallible. 
 
 On this I remarked guietly, that it would be very diffi- 
 cult for me or for any one in England, to ascertain with any- 
 thing like moral certainty, whether the pope at the issuing 
 of any bull was really under exterior influence, or whether 
 he was perfectly free. I did not see how it was possible to 
 have certainty on such a point. He said, as before, that 
 there was no real difficulty in this or in any of the tests he 
 had specified, and merelj"^ added that these several essen- 
 tials, or requisites, were the tests by which any bull was to 
 be tried. If they existed, then the bull was ex cathedrd, 
 and was to be received as infallible ; but if any of them 
 were wanting, then the bull was not ex cathedrd, and could 
 not be recognized otherwise than as fallible. 
 
 I felt exceedingly interested in all this detail. It was 
 the first time I had ever heard oi any means by which to 
 test the existence of infallibility. 
 
 Hitherto various bulls and decrees had frequently been 
 cited, and often one was asserted to be infallible and autho- 
 ritative, and another fallible and rejected. One pope with 
 his decisions were urged on one side, and another pope 
 with his bulls were cited on the opposite , and between 
 conflicting bulls and opposite decisions, and one bull re- 
 scinding a former one, and one decision reversing a preced!* ' 
 ing one ; and amidst all this conflict and confusion, I had 
 never seen or read or heard of any means, by which I 
 could learn when a pope was fallible and when he was in- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 253 
 
 fallible. I therefore felt considerably interested in the de- 
 tails of the reverend professor of Canon Law, and thanked 
 him warmly for the information he had imparted to me. 
 I asked however several questions, anxiously avoiding the 
 appearance of unnecessary cavilling or captiousness, and 
 putting them with the manner of one who rather sought 
 further information. My question referred to the diffi- 
 culty which persons like myself, resident in England, would 
 experience before they could ascertain whether the pope 
 had asked for the prayers of the universal Church — whe- 
 ther he had sought and obtained the requisite information 
 whether his bull was really received and promulgated 
 universally, &c. ; and I suggested that it was quite possi- 
 ble that other persons in England, simple and unlearned 
 men, unacquainted with such subjects, and wholly unable 
 to obtain information on them, might feel these enquiries 
 not only difficult but absolutely impossible, and in any 
 case altogether uncertain and unsatisfactory. I suggested 
 also yet further, that if there was difficulty in ascertaining 
 all these minute particulars, in reference to any bull that 
 might be issued at the present day, the difficulty must be 
 enhanced a thousand-fold, when the enquiry concerned 
 some bull that had been issued some centuries ago. It be- 
 comes not only a moral but even an absolute impossibility, 
 for ordinary men to carry out the enquiry to any satisfac- 
 tory result. 
 
 He replied, that all that was necessary for any man in 
 such cases was, to go to his bishop — ask the bishop respect- 
 ing the bull in question — and the bishop would inform him 
 whether it was ex cathedra or otherwise. Nothing could 
 be easier. 
 
234 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 I said that though certainly nothing could he easier than 
 such a course, yet that I apprehended that nothing could 
 be more unsatisfactory to an English mind. It. proposed 
 to leave the whole question of the fallibiUty or infallibility 
 of any given decision to the word of a bishop, who was 
 himself fallible and might he mistaken, both as to the fact 
 and as to the meaning of the bull. It was not usual in 
 England — it did not suit the character of the English ^ 
 mind, to refer the decision of such historical facts as the ■ 
 pope's freedom from influence — the reception of his bulls, 
 &c., to the mere opinion of a hishop. Men there would be 
 very apt to think themselves quite as good judges as to the 
 matter of fact. 
 
 He said that the bishop was the legitimate channel for 
 all communications from the pope, as the Head of the 
 Church and. Vicar of Christ; and all doubts would at once 
 be removed from the minds of humble and sincere men, if 
 they referred it to the bishop. 
 
 I replied that it would suggest itself to most minds, that 
 such a course was merely placing all their faith and hope 
 of salvation on the word of a bishop, a man like themselves, 
 and admitted to be fallible. And I added, that from my 
 knowledge of the English mind and habit of thinking, men 
 in England — men of common sense and ordinary judgment, 
 in most things would prefer turning to the Holy Scriptures, 
 and judging for themselves. It would be a most difficult 
 thing to alter their habit in this particular. They would 
 prefer comparing the hull with the Holy Scriptures, and 
 thus learning, not the opinion of the bishop, who was but 
 a man, but the judgment of God in his own word, for so 
 they habitually regarded the Holy Scriptures. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 255 
 
 He laughed at me for this, and said that an appeal to 
 the Scriptures was ahsurd and impossible. It might all be 
 very well comparatively for men like himself and me, who 
 were well read and well versed in sacred literature ; but it 
 was quite otherwise with men in general, and especially 
 with -humble and illiterate or ignorant men ; in fact with 
 the great mass of mankind. For, — he argued, with a tone 
 of great confidence, his whole face lighted up with the 
 expression of conscious triumph, — the Holy Sciiptures are 
 a volume that requires many preliminary enquiries before 
 it can be ^received. In the first place it will be necessary 
 for the man to ascertain the authenticity of every separate 
 book, or portion of the volume. In the next place, it 
 will be necessary for him to prove the Divine inspiration of 
 every part of it. In the third place, the book is written 
 in dead languages, and the man must know how to under- 
 stand them or have them translated. In the fourth place, 
 it is a volume that has given rise to different meanings or 
 interpretations, and the man should be able to judge upon 
 these. All these he argued, are preliminary enquiries, 
 which are absolutely necessary to be made : and as the 
 poor and ignorant man, the ordinary man, is incapable of 
 making them and judging on them, so the Holy Scriptures 
 can never be a fitting volume for such a man to appeal to 
 in matters of religion. 
 
 At this point of our conversation, where he seemed most 
 confident and apparently conscious of a triumph over me, 
 as if he thought no answer could be returned to his argu- 
 ment, I felt that he had given me a prodigious advantage, 
 of which he was wholly unaware. It was the very position 
 in which I had wished to place him, and. I could not have 
 
256 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 led him into a line of argument more suited to my purpose. 
 I felt in my soul, that the Lord' had delivered him into my 
 hands, and could not but render my thanksgiving in secret 
 to Him, who gave me the opportunity of dealing effectually 
 with this m^atter ; and I inwardly prayed that I might be 
 cool and collected, and effective in my reply. I hoped 
 most fervently, that it might have some effect upon his 
 mind. 
 
 I began by stating, that while my own opinion on the 
 point was a matter of unimportance, yet I apprehended his 
 method of argument would be met in England in a very 
 effective way, at least in such a way as I should be unable 
 to answer, unless he informed me further than he had as 
 yet done. I said that the most ordinary and eommon-place 
 men in England would say, that if they forsook the 
 volume of the Holy Scriptures, for the volume of the papal 
 bulls — that if they exchanged the Bible for the Bullarium, 
 they could gain ho advantage thereby ; for if, as he had 
 said, there was a necessity for a man to ascertain the au^ 
 thenticity of each book in the Holy Scriptures, before he 
 could avail himself of it, then it was no less true that it 
 was equally necessary for a man to ascertain the much- 
 questioned authenticity of each bull in the Bullarium — that 
 if, as he had alleged, the man must be carefully informed 
 by study, on the inspiration of the sacred volume, before 
 receiving it as his Divine teacher, there will exist a similar 
 necessity for his being informed by study on the disputed 
 infallibility of the papal Bullarium, before receiving it as 
 his infallible instructor ; that if, as he had averred, the 
 Holy Scriptures were written in the dead languages, and a 
 man must learn to translate them before using them, the 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 257 
 
 very same may be averred against the papal bulls, which 
 also are all written in a dead language, and a man must 
 learn to translate them before appealing to them ; — that if, 
 as he had argued, the Holy Scriptures have been variously 
 interpreted by various men, and all this variety must be 
 resolved by every man before he makes the sacred volume 
 his guide, it might in like mitnner be argued that the 
 papal bulls have been variously explained, some received 
 and some rejected by a vast variety of persons, and men 
 must be able to decide on all these varying interpretations 
 of bulls, before accepting them as an infallible guide — 
 in short it would be argued, — fairly argued, by men of 
 no pretension to anything but the possession of common 
 sense, that every objection he urged against the volume of 
 the Holy Scriptures, was liable to be urged against the 
 volume of the papal bulls. They were written in a dead 
 language. They were the subject of various interpreta- 
 tions. They were the source of endless controversies. 
 Their number and names were doubtful. Their title to 
 infallibility was questioned. All men disputed as to which 
 was fallible and which infallible. Some bulls were directly 
 contradictory of others ; some actually and by name were 
 condemnatory of others ; some were admitted on all hands 
 to be erroneous and heretical ; and the whole combined, 
 constituted a series of volumes, almost as extended as a 
 library, and therefore wholly inaccessible to the masses 
 of a Christian population. They could never become the 
 guide of a Christian people, and to this day have never yet 
 been translated into the language of any Christian Church . 
 While the Holy Scriptures on the other hand were univer- 
 sally translated, were small in size, convenient for reference, 
 
2.5S MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 and incomparably more easy to be read, studied, and under- 
 stood, than the endless intricacies and scholastic niceties 
 of the Bullarium. I said that men in England would 
 argue thus, and would feel that they should lose rather 
 than gain by exchanging their Bible for the Bullarium — 
 the Holy Scriptures for the papal bulls. 
 
 I perceived that the countenance of the reverend profes- 
 sor was undergoing a change. It betrayed impatience and 
 irritation. He looked rather angrily upon me ; but I was 
 resolved to persevere, though in terms and in manner as 
 kindly as possible, speaking as if I were stating the proba- 
 ble objections of others rather than my own. I transferred 
 the argument from myself to others, and expressed myself 
 as inquiring how I should be able to answer such objections 
 if advanced by others. 
 
 I therefore suggested that his argument on the subject 
 of the papal bulls — that his seven requisites or essentials 
 by which a bull is to be tested before it is recognised as 
 ex cathedrd or infallible, seemed liable to the objection, that 
 few — very few men indeed could possibly ascertain the 
 existence of these tests. With all the learning of the reve- 
 rend professor himself, and with what little reading I 
 possessed.myself, I yet feared that insuperable difficulties 
 would lie in my way ; and how much more fairly might a 
 simple mechanic or peasant in England object that he 
 knew nothing, and could know nothing, about the Bulla- 
 rium, with its twenty or thirty folio volumes of scholastic 
 matter in the Latin language — that he could never ascertain 
 whether these seven requisites or essentials were present 
 or absent — that it would be impossible for him to learn 
 satisfactorily, whether pope Boniface, or pope Hildebrand, 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 259 
 
 or Pope Gregory, before issuing any Bull, had sought the 
 prayers of the universal Church — that it would be hopeless 
 for him to attempt to ascertain whether they had sought 
 and obtained all necessary information, in the districts sup- 
 posed to be most affected by the question under considera- 
 tion — that no effort that could be made could assure him 
 of the universal acceptance or promulgation of the bull, on 
 the part of all the bishops of the universal Church. Thus 
 an unlettered man in England, might fairly argue that, if 
 it were necessary to enter on all these inquiries, cumbrous, 
 diflficult, and impossible as they were, before he could be 
 assured of the legality and infallibility of each bull, there 
 could then be no possibility of his getting even one step 
 towards infallibility ; and such a man seemed to me able 
 to object with much force, that if he was asked to abandoij 
 his Protestant principles, and to embrace Koman views — 
 to exchange his faith in the Holy Scriptures for a faith in 
 the papal bulls — to build his confidence and hope no longer 
 on the inspiration of the Bible, but on the infallibility of 
 the BuUarium — that it was only involving himself in a 
 series of questions which he could never solve, and en- 
 cumbering himself unnecessarily with all the difficulties of 
 these seven tests, — all the subtleties involved in the ques- 
 tion of infallibility — all the disputes as to whether that 
 infallibility existed in the popes or in the councils ; in short 
 in a most cumbrous and difficult system : when, remaining 
 in the principles of Protestantism, he had the Bible — the 
 word of God — in his hands, a volume of easy access, a 
 volume with whose language he was familiar from child- 
 hood, a volume that required practically no extent of human 
 learning to understand for all practical purposes in this life 
 
260 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 — in short, a facile and convenient rule of life and faith, 
 which, as being inspired of God was necessarily infallible. 
 I suggested that any simple and unlettered man in England 
 might so argue, and the argument seemed to me to involve 
 a powerful objection ; one that required an answer ; and I 
 asked ihe professor whether he could supply me with such 
 an answer. 
 
 The whole manner of my reverend friend exhibited his 
 sense of the difficulty. He seemed to me to feel that his 
 argument recoiled on himself; not having perceived that, 
 while he had imagined his seven tests were overpowering 
 my scruples, they were really so many stumbling-blocks in 
 the way. It had not, I must confess, a favourable influ- 
 ence on his manner, as he seemed to feel irritation at being 
 foiled, rather than disposed to give the argument due 
 weight m his own mind. Nor would I have pressed it so 
 far, only that I felt it my duty to lay the difficulty fairly 
 and fully before him, that it might, by that influence which 
 is not the less potent because it is unseen, work its own 
 way in his mind, when time and opportunity might afford 
 it further consideration. 
 
 He only said in reply, that he thought all these difficul- 
 ties would be removed by referring to the bishop, whose 
 decision should be final. He would at once say, which 
 bulls were fallible and which infallible, or rather which 
 were ex cathedrd, and which non ex cathedrd. It appertained 
 to the office of the bishop to do so. 
 
 I said it might, and very probably would, be objected by 
 some minds to this, that the bishops of France gave an 
 answer different from the bishops of Italy on these bulls ; 
 that on one side of the Alps certain bulls are pronounced 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 261 
 
 infallible, which at the other side of the same Alps are 
 held to be fallible ; and therefore that a reference to the 
 bishop could not be sufficient to satisfy some thinking 
 men ; at least I could not answer for the people of Italy, 
 but certainly such a system could never satisfy the thinking 
 and judging people of England. They habitually inquired - 
 and judged for themselves, and never would leave such a 
 matter of fact to the decision of the bishop. 
 
 He argued, that I ought not to refer to the difference of 
 the French and Italian bishops, on the subject of infallibi- 
 lity — that it was a very favorite system of arguing among 
 the English writers, but that it was really of no importance ; 
 for the Church was one — was at unity, and that I should 
 find that the religion of France was identical with the re- 
 ligion of Italy, so that however differing on the point of 
 infallibility, they were one and united on everything else. 
 
 I said that I apprehended we could not agree on that 
 point, as I thought there were other particulars on which 
 the difference was equally marked. 
 
 Our conversation soon took another turn. I felt that 
 enough had been said by me, and that the subject — the 
 special subject of our conference, was sufficiently opened. I 
 therefore allowed him to lead away to other and more 
 general topics. As my wife was almost always present, 
 there was great facility for this whenever it was desirable. 
 We were all soon conversing on -a variety of points con- 
 nected with the external aspect and form of religion at 
 Rome ; and the professor and we parted, with expressions 
 of mutual gratification in forming an acquaintance, which 
 promised to be profitable and improving, as connected with 
 our eternal interests. 
 
262 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 NOTE ON THE CONVERSATION' WITH THE 
 PROFESSOR OF CANON LAW. 
 
 The principal point in the foregoing conversation, next 
 to the details of the seven essentials said to characterize an 
 infallible bull, is the evidence by vfhich a man, ordinarily 
 circumstanced, may be able to ascertain the existence or 
 non-existence, — the presence or absence of all these in the 
 case of any particular bull. 
 
 The Professor of Canon Law stated, that in case of any 
 doubt, an application vfas to be made to the Bishop, whose 
 answer was to determine the inquiry. My reply was, that 
 this made all uncertain, for it made all depend on the word 
 of the Bishop, who was but a man, and a fallible one. 
 
 My opponents in England have communicated with the 
 reverend Professor at Borne on this- subject; and the fol- 
 lowing strictures, neither confuting nor denying my narra- 
 tive, have been the result. With what object they' have been 
 made public, I am unable to understand. They state — 
 
 " In one of his chapters Mr. Seymour has endeavoured to 
 shew that, by Father Mazio's admission, Catholics are the most 
 unfortunate people in the world, in having no satisfactory means 
 of ascertaining even what their own Church teaches ! He passes 
 before our eyes a phantasmagoria, in which bulls, decrees, 
 Popes, Bishops, canon law, and we know not what besides, are 
 mingled together in bewildering confusion, till our eyes and 
 thoughts are dazzled, and we feel something like the astonish- 
 ment of a clown, who should have it proved to him by the irre- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 263 
 
 fragable logic of a Philosopher, that he himself did not exist at 
 all. If any of our readers have had perseverance to read 
 through Mr. Seymour's mystificatipn, they will perhaps be glad 
 to be refreshed by Father Mazic's commentary. What Mr. 
 Seymour says (he remarks) about the reception of papal bulls, 
 in which all countries do not agree together, is only true in re- 
 gard to matters of discipline. There is no dogmatic bull of the 
 Popes which is not received and accepted by the universal 
 Church. We may say the same of the Council of Trent, whose 
 decrees in matters of discipline are not de facto received in 
 England and in some other countries, but whose canons in mat- 
 ters of faith are a necessary standard of doctrine and belief for 
 all Catholics in every country. 
 
 " Conflicting bulls and opposite decisions of the Popes may be 
 found in matters of discipline, not of faith. Discipline is fre- 
 quently changing in a great many points according to the 
 variations of times and places, but faith must be, and has 
 always been, one and the same in the Catholic Church. 
 
 " The twenty, and more, volumes in folio of the Bullarium 
 contain for far the most part laws on ecclesiastical discipline. 
 The dogmatic bulls of the Popes are very few in number. There 
 is no need for Catholic believers to apply either to the Bullarium, 
 or to the Collection of Councils, to ascertain what they are to 
 believe. What is universally taught in the Catechism of the 
 Church is sufficient for general believers, provided they believe 
 all the remaining truths implicitly, submitting to every thing de- 
 fined, or to be defined, by the authority of the Church. 
 
 "The testimony and the fact of each Bishop's receiving a 
 papal bull as a dogmatic bull ex cathedra, is the clearest and 
 firmest evidence to people at large that the bull is so. This 
 consent of^he episcopacy, of the teaching body with their head, 
 can be very easily ascertained. The bull Unigenitus, and the 
 bull Auctorcm Fidei, are instances of it. Surely the party which 
 is coiidemned will oppose, will contrive every way of eluding 
 the dogmatic decree passed against them, as the Jansenists did ; 
 but the voice of Catholic episcopacy will ever come forth to pay 
 homage and support to the papal decision. We may take, as a 
 new instance, the dogmatic subject of the Immaculate Concep- 
 
264 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 tion. Wauld it be a matter of doubt to any one, that the Catho' 
 lie episcopate has been applied to by the Pope for advice ; that 
 solemn prayers have been offered everywhere : that the Bishops 
 have expressed to the Pope their opinion on the subject? And 
 if a decree on this subject, at its coming out, were announced 
 and received in every country by all Catholic Bishops, oi; even 
 by the far greatest part of them, could any Catholic entertain a 
 doubt as to its being ea; eoMeii?-^? Mr. Seymour takes delight 
 in heaping up difficulties and perplexities where there are none, 
 or they are very easy to overcome ; and cares not for all the 
 invincible difficulties and perplexities which beset the rule 
 of fai'.h which Protestants follow. Moreover, he did not ex- 
 press his Pro'testant sentim^^nts so strongly and so fully in his 
 conversations, but, by his reserve, or deceit, prevented Father 
 Mazio from giving him those further explanations and answers 
 which he would have given if he had expressed himself as he 
 basin his book." 
 
 It is here admitted that there are " conflicting bulls." 
 The admission is important, and involves all my argument 
 requires, as showing the necessity for some test by vfhich 
 to determine between them. For even though it were true, 
 as is here stated most incorrectly, that all these " conflict- 
 ing bulls " have reference to discipline and not to doctrine, 
 yet there must be some test by which to decide between 
 them. 
 
 The Professor of Canon Law at Rome stated, that there 
 were seven essentials, as specified in my narrative, the pre- 
 sence or absence of which served as a test to distinguish 
 the bull ex cathedrd from the non ex cathedrd — the infallible 
 from the fallible. He added, that in case a doubt was 
 raised as to the matter of fact, namely, as to the presence 
 or absence of any one of these tests, it was to be deter- 
 mined by the word of the Bishop. This position, extra- 
 ordinary as it may seem to thoughtful men, is not only not 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROAE. 265 
 
 denied or rejected, but is reiterated by tbe reviewers. They 
 state — 
 
 The testimony and the fact of each Bishop receiving a papal 
 bull as a dogmatic bull, ex catheiirA, is the clearest and firm- 
 est EVIDENCE to people at large that the bull is so." 
 
 Thus when the inquiry is, whether any specified bull is 
 fallible or infallible, it is to be determined by the presence 
 or absence of certain tests. And when the inquiry is as to 
 the matter of fact, whether those tests are present or absent, 
 it is to be decided by the Bishop. And thus on a question 
 which is a mere matter of fact, and not a point of doctrine, 
 the word of the Bishop is stated to be " the clearest and 
 firmest evidence." It used to be said that even the infalli- 
 bility of the Pope himself did not extend to matters of fact, 
 but only to questions of doctrine, but here it is said that 
 the word of the Bishop is " the clearest and firmest evi- 
 dence " of those matters of fact which are to be taken as 
 the tests whether a bull be fallible or infallible ! 
 
 But strange as is all this, it is not half so strange as 
 what follows ; for the reviewers afterwards intimate that 
 this " clearest and firmest evidence " is no clear or firm 
 evidence at all. They state — 
 
 " If a decree at its coming out vpere announced and received 
 in every country by all Catholic Bishops, or even by the far greatest 
 part of them, could any Catholic entertain a doubt as to its 
 being ex cathedrd ? " 
 
 It is here admitted that the assent of all the Bishops is 
 not necessary — that the assent of a large majority is suffi- 
 cient — that the refusal of a minority does not taint the in- 
 fallibility of the bull. This at once dashes all certainty to 
 the earth ; for, in the first place, a thoughtful man, behev- 
 ing that infallibility is determined by the majority, may 
 
 N 
 
266 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 very naturally raise a doubt as to whether and how the 
 votes of all the Bishops in the world have been taken and 
 scrutinized, so as to make it certain on which side the real, 
 not fictitious, majority will be found. And in the second 
 place, the man who lives under some refusing or non-assent- 
 ing Bishop, is referred to one who will inform him that the 
 bull is a fallible one. And thus a man's belief as to the 
 fallibility or infallibility of any bull being dependent on 
 the word of the Bishop under whom he lives, must vary 
 with each varying diocese. It is fallible in one : it is in- 
 fallible in the other. 
 
 It is not easy to conceive the object of the reviewers in 
 thus placing this subject in a light far more objectionable 
 than anything contained in my narration of this conversa- 
 tion. And certainly they have not improved their position 
 by alluding to the dogmatic bull lately issued, respecting 
 " the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary ; " for as 
 the seventh essential is the full and perfect freedom of the 
 Pope from external and personal constraint, it may reason- 
 ably be questioned whether it is found in the case of a bull_ 
 issued, as this was, at a time when he was under such per- 
 sonal constraint as to be compelled to fly from Eome in 
 disguise ; and when he was under such external constraint, 
 that he was unable to reside with safety even within the 
 borders of the Roman See. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 267 
 
 CHAPTER IX. 
 
 OPINIONS ENTERTAINED AT BOME RESPECTING THE MOVEMENT IN THE 
 ANGLICAN CHURCH — THE BISHOP OF EXETER AND OTHERS AT OXFORD 
 —CAUTION AGAINST ROMANS INTERMEDDLING WITH THE CHURCH 
 OP ENGLAND — SEPARATION OP THE TEMPORAL FROM THE SPIRITUAL 
 POWER OF THE POPES — ARGUMENT DERIVED PROM THE SUCCESS OF 
 THE MISSIONS OF THE CHURCH OF ROME —AN INDIAN TRIBE CON- 
 VERTED — THEIR HOLY LIVES — WONDERFUL MIRACLE— CREDULITY 
 PREVALENT AT ROME — INCONSISTENCY BETWEEN TWO DOCTRINES OF 
 THAT CHURCH— TRANSCBSTANTIATION AND THE MASS — THE IMMACU- 
 LATE CONCEPTION — HUMAN MERIT — INDULGENCES. 
 
 The movement among certain gentlemen at Oxford fur- 
 nished a frequent subject of conversation among my reverend 
 friends of the otder of Jesus. It was evidently a source 
 of the largest anticipation, and there were moments when 
 nothing seemed too extravagant in the way of hope as a 
 result from it. It was generally looked on as the beginning 
 of the conversion of England, and many an eye brightened, 
 and many a cheek flushed, in triumphant expectation of her 
 return to the arms of Rome. The remarkable letter or 
 rescript of the Cardinal- Vicar, appointing a novena, that is, 
 a nine days' service, and promising a plenary indulgence, 
 that is, a complete exemption from purgatory and imme- 
 N 2 
 
268 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 diate admission into paradise after death, to all who took 
 part in this Novena, praying for the extirpation of heresy, 
 the exaltation of the Church, and the conversion of England 
 to the Church of Rome ; — this remarkable document had 
 not yet been issued, but hopes were high, conversations 
 were frequent, and confidence was unbounded on the sub- 
 ject ; and masses were offered for the conversion of indi- 
 viduals, for whom a peculiar interest was felt. 
 • The volume by Mr. Ward on the ideal of a Church, 
 which had been published in England a short time before, 
 had found entrance into Rome. It was sent to me by one 
 of my reverend friends of the Collegio Romano ; and when 
 he came shortly afterwards, his mind seemed full of the 
 subject of the Anglican Church — ^its present state and its 
 future destinies. We were not likely to agree on such a 
 subject. As usual, his companion remained silent, and took 
 no part in the conversation. 
 
 He expressed himself in strong terms against the Angli- 
 can bishops, for having set themselves against the princi- 
 ples and practices proposed to be introduced by the gentle- 
 men at Oxford. He stated that they had shewn their 
 opposition, and although he regarded their opposition as 
 likely to fail in the end, yet they had -sufficiently shown 
 their feeling, and proved that nothing was to be expected 
 from them. He selected, however, and excepted the bishop 
 of Exeter, and it seemed as if no language of hatred and 
 scorn combined, could be too strong to express his feelings 
 respecting him. He said in a rather exaggerating way, 
 that the main body of the most learned and influential of 
 the heads of houses, professors, and tutors at Oxford, were 
 sufficiently well disposed to a union with Rome — that the 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 269 
 
 vast portion of the rural clergy were inclined to glide over 
 in the same direction — that the great majority of the 
 younger clergy, fresh from the university, were over-zealous 
 in the matter, almost requiring restraint— that many of the 
 aristocracy and gentry, educated at the universities, were 
 prepared and wishing for the change ; and that while all 
 minds were thus directed to a great and grand object, one 
 worthy of the thoughts of a whole people — while the mind 
 of England, and England's Church, was forsaking the 
 principles and ideas of centuries, and now turning to tra- 
 dition and to the fathers— while the whole learning,| and 
 feeling, and desire, and hope of the clergy of the Angli- 
 can Church, was towards a return to the bosom of their 
 Holy Mother the Church of Rome, and sighing for Ca- 
 tholic unity — this high and holy feeling, this onward and 
 noble feeling, was marred and turned aside by the littleness 
 of the bishop of Exeter. That bishop, he stated, had raised 
 a question about black gowns and white surplices — a ques- 
 tion of such paltry insignificance and contemptible little- 
 ness — and by evoking a host of enemies, and raising a 
 hurricane of opposition, turned all minds from the right 
 direction, from the grand subject, from the great object of 
 true religion, and the right Church, and unity, and tra- 
 dition, and all that was truly precious, and likely to effect a 
 glorious work ; and turned all minds to such anile trifling, 
 as a dispute about gowns and surplices. He had promised 
 much, and no doubt intended much ; but by his littleness, 
 and by his energy and talent in turning little things into 
 great things, he had strengthened the hands of his oppo- 
 nents, and utterly marred for a time the very work in 
 vfhich he had himself been one of the most active and use- 
 
270 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 ful labourers. A noble work was thus provokingly marred 
 by the imprudence and indiscretion of one of its partizans, 
 and no language was too strong to apply to him. He dealt 
 sharply too with the bishop of London. 
 
 All this, and much more of fhe. same nature, fell from 
 my reverend friend respecting the bishop of Exeter. He 
 shewed considerable heat, and seemed to me to argue 
 that the Jesuits at Rome were much annoyed and disap- 
 pointed at seeing the turn that things were taking in Eng- 
 land. It was not fot me to undertake any defence of either 
 the bishop of Exeter, or the bishop of London. 
 
 My friend soon turned to Mr. Newman and Dr. Pusey, 
 and stated that he felt they were doing a glorious work, in 
 impregnating the minds of the students of the university, 
 and especially the younger clergy, with Catholic principles. 
 It was a subject of unmixed thankfulness, that such doc- 
 trines should be so openly avowed and taught in the very 
 university of the Anglican Church, after three centuries of 
 suppression and silence; and it was impossible that the 
 movement — the impetus which it gave to the progress of 
 Catholic truth, could fail to end in the final triumph of 
 the Church of Rome. It might be checked or turned 
 aside for a short time, but. must soon return to its main 
 channel, and move on irresistibly to its great destiny. It 
 was impossible that Mr. Newman, Dr. Pusey, Mr. Ward 
 and other leaders could remain where they were. They 
 had gone so far that they must necessarily go farther, and 
 when they entered the Church of Rome, they would be 
 followed by the greater part of the Anglican Church. 
 They could not honestly remain as they were.* 
 
 * At the time of this conversation, Mr. Ward and Mr, Newman had 
 not openly joined the Church of Rome. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 271 
 
 I said, that I quite felt with him, that these persons 
 could not honestly remain in the Church of England ; and 
 that they were hound, holding the principles which they 
 professed, to join the Church of Eome : — that if I myself 
 held their principles, I should do so : — but that many per- 
 sons felt a difficulty in justifying themselves to their own 
 consciences, in leaving the Church of their own accord, 
 without being compelled to do so by the authorities of the 
 Church ; and it was possible some of these persons might 
 be influenced to remain from this feeling. 
 
 He said that such a feeling was very excusable, where 
 there was not a decided difference of opinion and principle 
 on essentials ; but there was a line somewhere. As long 
 as they kept within that line, they might indeed remain, 
 but when once they had gone beyond it — when once they 
 renounced or abandoned the essential principles of one 
 Church, and adopted the essential principles of the other 
 — then to remaiii was not consistent, not honest ; and this 
 was the case of these persons. He said they had passed 
 the line, and he should be greatly disappointed if any of 
 them remained as they were. It would not be honest — or 
 becoming the honesty of Christian men, to remain in the 
 Church of England. 
 
 I gave my full assent to this, adding that I was sure, he 
 would not be disappointed, and that all these gentlemen 
 would ultimately join the Church of Rome. 
 
 He then panegyrised in very glowing terms, the conduct 
 and talent of Mr. Ward, and spoke in the most triumphant 
 tone of the approaching fall of the Church of England — 
 that it was an event for which God was to be thanked, 
 especially as it seemed to be His doing ; as being a move- 
 
272 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 ment which sprung up spontaneously in the heart of the 
 AngKcan Church herself. It did not originate with Rome, 
 though of course she watched it anxiously, and assisted it 
 to the utmost of her power ; and, he added, smiling ex- 
 pressively, — she has power, and we shall soon see England • 
 with us again. 
 
 I said in return, that they would be wise to let England 
 alone, and in no way to intermeddle with her State, or her 
 Church. It might possibly lead to England's intermeddling 
 with Rome. 
 
 He asked me what I meant. 
 
 I replied, that the people of England did not like to be 
 interfered with, and might be disposed to resent it. I 
 then said boldly to him, that I was fully aware that a large 
 portion of the people of the Roman states were anxious to 
 separate the ecclesiastical authority of the pope, from the 
 civil sovereignty — that they desired to leave the Pope as 
 the spiritual head of the Catholic Church ; but, as far as I 
 could learn their sentiments, they were desirous to divest 
 him of his temporal sovereignty — that they had expressed 
 themselves in very many instances, speaking freely to me 
 as a stranger and as an Englishman loving free institutions, 
 as anxious that the Pope should be reduced simply to the 
 state of a Christian bishop, ruling the Church as such, but 
 by no means ruling the state as a temporal sovereign — that 
 this feeling seemed to me so general that all that was re- 
 quired was, that some_boid_man should lift the standard of 
 revolution, and that the people would follow. 
 
 He smiled and asked how this, supposing it to be true, 
 could affect the question as concerning the Anglican:. 
 Church. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 273 
 
 I answered, that if Rome interfered too much with the 
 Church in England, perhaps England might interfere a 
 little with the Church at Rome — that there was a powerful 
 sentiment, an enthusiastic feeling for Protestantism,, and 
 an unhesitating hatred of Romanism, among a large portion 
 of the people of England ; and if these persons were once 
 roused, they might evoke public feeling — subscribe large 
 funds — ^influence the government — and encourage those 
 Italians, and especially those Romans who desired .to raise 
 the standard of revolution at Rome, and thus separate the 
 temporal from the spiritual power of the pope. It were 
 wise therefore, not to intermeddle too much with the Church 
 of England. 
 
 This elicited a display of irritation and anger for which 
 I was scarcely prepared. I felt however that I was speak- 
 ing on good authority ; as the feeling to which I referred 
 was general among some of the mos"t respectable of the 
 citizens of Rome — that it was shared by some of the most 
 influential persons, and by a very large portion of the trades- 
 men^that they all spoke with especial dislike and hatred 
 of the order of Jesuits, paying, that as sure as any Jesuit 
 was permitted to enter any house, there was as surely des- 
 tined to follow in his wake a series of family disputes, so 
 as that there could be no peace in any family into which 
 they were admitted ; — that in consequence of this, there was 
 a growing feeling at Rome, against not only the order of 
 Jesuits, but against the monks of every other order, — that 
 this feeling was extending itself rapidly against all ecclesias- 
 tical government, and especially against ecclesiastics holding 
 government appointments, and conducting the temporal and 
 civil affairs of the state, — that the whole body of the laity, 
 N 5 
 
274 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 excluded as they were from all important, influential and 
 lucrative offices, were dissatisfied with such exclusion, and 
 were predisposed to any revolution which, by excluding 
 ecclesiastics, and confining them to spiritual matters, might 
 lay open all the civil offices of the state to the fair and 
 honourable ambition of the laity. Feeling all this, and 
 knowing that my reverend friend must be well aware of it, 
 I could not be much surprised, that he felt angered or 
 irritated at the use which I made of it ; namely, as a warn- 
 ing to him and his friends among the Jesuits, not to inter- 
 fere too much in the affairs of the Church or State of 
 England. 
 
 I felt that a change in the subject of our conversation 
 was desirable, as there was neither information nor profit 
 to be derived from the political aspect of Rome, nor from 
 the opinions entertained at Rome, respecting the state of 
 the Church of England ; and therefore when he said in a 
 tone of triumph, that the Church of England must soon 
 fall utterly to ruin and passaway for ever, or unite herself 
 to the Church of Rome, I was glad of the opportunity it 
 afforded for changing the subjetft of conversation. It led 
 to some statements among the most remarkable I had yet 
 heaird. 
 
 In arguing for the Church of Rome, and against the 
 Church of England, he stated that Providence was every 
 day setting the seal of testimony to the former, and with- 
 holding it from the latter. He said that this was pecu- 
 liarly visible in the department of missions ; for that, while 
 the missionary labors of the Church of England, notwith- 
 standing the commanding influence and wealth of England, 
 were without any success that deserved the name, the 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME, 275 
 
 preaching of the missionaries, of the Church of Rome had 
 met with the most wonderful successes — that the multi- 
 tudes of heathen, who were converted of late years, were 
 beyond expression ; and that from every quarter of the 
 globe, the information received was of the same happy and 
 triumphant character. The great God of Christianity was 
 manifesting his advocacy of His own cause, by giving the 
 most ample success to the missionary labours of His own 
 Church ; and this he continued, was an evidence and proof 
 of His favor and love to the Church of Rome, which ele- 
 vated her above the Church of England, and was so abun- 
 dant that ere long the whole heathen world must bow to 
 the truth and embrace the Church of Rome. 
 
 I replied that I had not much faith in the statements 
 sometimes put forth on the subject of missions. I men- 
 tioned the narrative of a friend of my own, who was wit- 
 ness to the conversion of a whole tribe of American In- 
 dians. He told me the whole tribe marched down to a 
 river, and that the Roman Catholic priest, without a word 
 of instruction, sprinkled water on every one in the usual 
 form ; and that he then hung a little cross by a string 
 around the neclc of each, and telling them they were now 
 Christians, he left them. My friend told me that the 
 Indians departed precisely as they came — ^heard no preach- 
 ing — received no instruction — exhibited no sign of Chris- 
 tianity — made no profession of any faith — but departed 
 precisely as they came, as naked, as savage, as wild and as 
 ignorant and heathen, with this only difference, that each 
 had a little cross suspended around his neck ! I added 
 that I fully believed the statement of my informant, who 
 would not deceive me, and that I did not see how the 
 
276 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Church of Rome could triumph much in such alleged 
 conversions. 
 
 His answer to this was very striking, as shewing a de- 
 gree of credulity which I could never have anticipated. 
 
 He said that I was altogether mistaken, in doubting the 
 reality of these conversions— that it was in this that the 
 interposition of God was so clearly manifested — that those 
 conversions partook very much of the miraculous in their 
 nature ; at least could not be accounted for, often, unless 
 on the principle of a divine miracle. It was the great and 
 good God setting his seal to the work .of his own Church. 
 These very Indians, heathen and savage as they had been, 
 were real converts ; and the proofs of the reality of their 
 conversion were undoubted and convincing : so much so, 
 that after the missionary had left them — after he had re- 
 mained absent from them for two years — after they had 
 been left without farther instruction of any kind beyond 
 the memory of his teaching — after he had returned to his 
 missionary station at the close of these two years, and was 
 again among these very Indians, he of course, as was his 
 duty, required of them to come to confession — to confess 
 their sins that they might receive absolution ; but he was 
 agreeably surprised, and indeed overjoyed, to find that not 
 one of them had any sins to confess ! My friend went on 
 to explain, that there was no matter for the sacrament of 
 penance, as .during these two years the Indians lived such 
 converted lives, such holy and Christian lives that there was 
 not one among them who had committed a single sin ; and they 
 therefore had no sins to confess, and the missionary priest 
 was unable to confer absolution, inasmuch as there was no 
 matter for the sacrament ! 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 277 
 
 I could not but be surprised at such a statement, and 
 wondered in my own mind, whether my reverend friend 
 himself believed it ; and yet there was all the look and 
 stamp of earnestness and truthfulness in the man. He 
 seemed to believe it fully, and therefore, as unwilling to 
 wound his feelings, I merely suggested that the Indians 
 having no sin to confess, might have arisen from their not 
 knowing their sins — froin their not knowing that those 
 customs, vices, immoralities, cruelties and idolatries, which 
 they were constantly committing, were really sins — in 
 short they were so ignorant of Christiaq truth, and so left 
 without religious instruction, that they were unconscious 
 of sin, and therefore confessed no sin. I said that I could 
 not otherwise understand his statement, because the best 
 and wisest and holiest Christians that ever lived, were con- 
 scious of sin ; and that if those Indians were really con- 
 verted, they must have been conscious of sin ; and to sup- 
 pose them otherwise, must imply that they were wholly 
 unconverted. 
 
 This suggestion he rejected and flung from him at once, 
 and he eagerly added that this very missionary was now at 
 Rome — that he had just returned from America, and was 
 at the CoUegio Romano, where he had himself heard him 
 narrate the facts ; and as a proof beyond question of the 
 reality of the conversions, and the holiness of the Indians, 
 he mentioned what he called a most wonderful miracle that 
 had occurred, when the missionary was administering the 
 holy communion to them. He was holding the host in 
 "his fingers thus — my friend suiting the action to the word 
 — and as the poor Indian was too far from him, the mis- 
 sionary priest could not place the host in his mouth : the 
 
278 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 poor humble devout Indian knelt so far away that the 
 priest could not reach him, and — ^here my reverend friend 
 lifted his hands in an attitude of awe, looked devoutly to 
 heaven, and then earnestly and solemnly addressed me — 
 the host flew out of his fingers, flew over to the poor In- 
 dian, and flew into his mouth ! " Oh ! " he added, in a' 
 tone of the most reverential devotion, " the blessed Lord - 
 Jesus so loved that poor savage, that he longed to enter 
 into his heart, and thus miraculously flew into his mouth ! 
 How anxious he was to get into him ! " 
 
 I could no longer doubt the sincerity of this priest. 
 There was a fervor, an earnestness, a devotion of manner, 
 that shewed he fully believed what he thus narrated ; and 
 the personal character of the man was such that I had no 
 right to doubt him after so solemn a statement. He nar- 
 rated it as a miracle wrought by God in behal f of the Church 
 of Rome. He mentioned it as illustrating the blessing of 
 God upon the missions of that Church. He, believing that 
 the age of miracles is not yet passed, but that miracles 
 are still constantly working, imagined that his narrative 
 would be credited by me. But it only proved to my mind, 
 that the missionary priest had wickedly invented the story 
 to exalt and magnify his own labors, and was now telling 
 it among his brother Jesuits of the CoUegio Romano, that 
 such of them as were simple and credulous and super- 
 stitious enough to believe it, might spread it through the" 
 world, as a new testimony of God to the Church of Rome. 
 My reverend friend evidently Relieved it, and expected that 
 I should believe it. 
 
 I shall never forget this portion of our conversation. It 
 was a practical confutation of those — and I must confess I 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 279 
 
 was myself once among the number — who suppose that 
 the Eomish priests are all infidels — that the simple and 
 superstitious and ignorant may perhaps believe what they 
 are taught ; but that the talented and educated are infidel 
 as to some of the doctrines which they inculcate. I am 
 fully persuaded that, while this may be true of some, it is 
 not true of many whose acquaintance I was enabled to 
 make during my residence at Rome. They were educated, 
 learned, astute, and talented men ; and yet they believed 
 things contrary to all experience, reason and revelation. 
 The reverend Jesuit, who made to me the communication 
 respecting these Indians, was one of the most polished 
 and educated men at Rome. He was conversant with the 
 entire range of European literature. He spoke English, 
 German and French, with almost the same facility as his 
 , native Italian ; and was as learned and astute as a man 
 might be expected to be, who was selected for a professor- 
 ship- in the principal educational establishment of the order 
 of Jesuits at Rome. He fully believed, and expected me 
 to believe, his narrative. This certainly is a phase of mind 
 not very intelligible in England ; but when it is considered 
 that these men are brought up from childhood in certain 
 principles — that they are taught to believe implicitly every 
 thing which the Church is said to teach — that they never 
 see the Holy Scriptures, which might call in question the 
 principles which they are thus taught — that, believing that 
 miracles are still as constantly wrought as in the days of 
 the Apostles^— that looking on every doubt in the mind as a 
 horrid infidelity to be hated and loathed, as the source of 
 every woe here and hereafter — that being thus habituated 
 to receive implicitly everything that seems to come in con- 
 
280 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 formity with the Church, — their minds are in a different 
 train, and act on a different principle altogether, and they 
 must not he judged hy the same rules as might hold 
 among us, whose minds are so differently constituted and 
 trained. I am fully convinced that in supposing all these 
 men — however it may be with some — to be secretly infi- 
 dels, we do them the greatest injustice. I am satisfied 
 that multitudes among them believe, with the fullest and 
 most implicit faith, the dogmas of their Church ; and 
 therefore, instead of regarding them as the hypocrites and 
 monsters of deception and wickedness which such a sup- 
 position implies, I regard them as melancholy evidences of 
 the fall of human nature, and sad monuments of the ship- 
 wreck of the human judgment, evidencing to the world 
 that no reach of human intellect, and no grasp of mental 
 genius, and no range of this world's learning, can bring the ' 
 true and saving knowledge of God to the mind or heart of 
 man. The record may be a saddening one, but it is true : 
 " The world by- wisdom knew nbt God." 
 
 It was impossible my reverend friend could fail to ob- 
 serve my incredulity, both as to the sinless state of the 
 Indian converts, and as to the wonderful mitacle of the 
 consecrated wafer or host. I could not believe them, and 
 I felt I ought not to leave him under the possible impres- 
 sion that I did beheve him. I expressed my feehng in 
 the most kindly and courteous terras, being very unwilling 
 to give unnecessary pain or offence ; but I let him clearly 
 understand that I had read and heard enough of the mis- 
 sions, to hold a very decided opinion as to the argument 
 often drawn from them. I added that I believed that the 
 real difference between the missionary results of the two 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 281 
 
 Churches was this' — that the Church of Rome was gene- 
 rally satisfied with an outward conformity, or rather an out- 
 ward profession, , however little the practice might be ; 
 looking forward to the opportunities which such conformity 
 or profession secured in reference to the rising generation ; 
 while on the other hand the Church of England almost 
 universally required the manifestation of a converted mind 
 and regenerated nature ; disregarding in a measure all the 
 worldly considerations of expediency, or value of external 
 profession. I added yet farther, that under such circum- 
 stances I was prepared to expect even greater appearance 
 of success under the system of Rome ; but, on the other 
 hand far more of reality and spiritual life under the system 
 of England. 
 
 After a little further conversation on the subject of mis- 
 sions, and the success said to be attendant upon them — 
 after he had made some allusions to the success of the 
 Jesuits in China, to which I replied by referring to the 
 Bull of Pope Ganganelli, condemning tbe compliances of 
 the Jesuits in that empire — after this, my friend still urged 
 that the' Church of England was inclining to her ruin ; and 
 that I should be obliged ere long to leave her, and after all 
 should be necessitated to join the Church of Rome. 
 
 I said that I was fully convinced in my soul, that a 
 Church which, like that of England, honoured the word of 
 God, the Holy Scriptures, so as to make them the sole rule 
 of faith in things necessary to salvation, and which held 
 so much precious truth, would never be abandoned by God. 
 He had blessed her hitherto to the salvation of millions, 
 and I had no fears for her permanence ; but at all events I 
 had not seen any reason to suppose I could join myself to 
 
282 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 the Church of Rome. She had too frequently erred in 
 things of the greatest importance. 
 
 He replied that God promised to be for ever with his 
 Chnrch — that his Church was founded on St. Peter — that 
 that Church was the Catholic or Roman Church — that by 
 the promise of Christ it was infallible ; and that I should 
 find it impossible to prove her to have failed in any parti- 
 cular. He went on upon this subject at some length, in a 
 way very usual among the advocates of the Roman Church, 
 and asked me to prove that she had erred in anything. 
 
 I answered that as he would probably defend as a truth, 
 anything I should object to as an error, I did not see 
 clearly how I could convince him, unless indeed I could 
 prove an absolute contradiction of one doctrine to another. 
 I said this with the view of leading to this very subject. 
 
 He said that that would be an objection worth hearing, 
 and seemed to challenge me to the proof. 
 
 Fully expecting this, I replied by saying that I believed 
 there were some very decided and positive contradictions, 
 in the system of doctrines received by the Church of Rome ; 
 and if it were not drawing too much on his patience, I 
 would endeavour to specify an instance, and perhaps he 
 might be able to remove the apparent inconsistency by ex- 
 planation. But, I added, while such inconsistencies or 
 contradictions remained unexplained, it was impossible to 
 recognise the infallibility of his Church ; and though I had 
 presented the difficulty to many eminent men for solution, 
 I had never been so fortunate as to find even an attempt at 
 explanation. 
 
 I then called his attention to the fact, that the sacrifice 
 of the mass is called " an unbloody sacrifice ; " that when 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 283 
 
 Protestants object, that if the sacrifice of the mass be in- 
 deed identical with the sacrifice of Christ on the -cross, 
 then this daily sacrificing of Christ must be a source of 
 daily suffering to Christ : — for, as the Apostle Paul says, 
 " He was not to offer himself often, for then he must have 
 suffered often since the foundation of the world :" — when 
 Protestants object, that if the sacrifice of the mass be often 
 offered, according to the system of the Church of Rome, 
 then the sufferings of Christ must be often repeated, ac- 
 cording to the words of the Apostle — when Protestants 
 object this, it is always answered that there are no suffer- 
 ings, because there is only " an unbloody sacrifice," and 
 that in the sacrifice of the mass, Christ is offered only in 
 " an unbloody manner." It is therefore expressly stated in 
 the Canons of the Council of Trent, that the mass is an 
 " unbloody sacrifice ;" and all the catechisms of the Church 
 of Rome distinctly assert, that it is an unbloody offer- 
 ing :" and all endeavour to obviate the objection of Protes- 
 tants, by saying that Christ is offered in the mass in "an 
 unbloody manner." 
 
 He assented to this, stating that such was the doctrine 
 of the mass, that Christ was offered as a propitiatory sacri- 
 fice for the living and the dead, in the mass, and that there 
 could be no pain or suffering to him, though truly, literally, 
 substantially present in the host as the victim, because he 
 was offered in "an unbloody manner." It was "an un- 
 bloody sacrifice," and therefore it gave no pain like that on 
 Calvary ; and he asked me where there was any contradic- 
 tion or inconsistency ? 
 
 I replied, that I had only stated one half my subject. 
 The other half remained to be told, which was this — that 
 
284 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 the dogma of Transubstantiation, as defined by the Coun- 
 cil of Trent, and held universally in the Church of Rome, 
 taught that the bread and wine of the communion were 
 truly, literally, substantially changed, so as that their 
 whole substance was changed into the substance of " the 
 body, and blood, and soul, and divinity" of Jesus Christ. 
 According to this doctrine the substance of wine is annihi- 
 lated, and the substance of blood substituted in its stead, 
 so as that all is no longer wine but blood, truly, literally, 
 substantially blood. In the offering therefore of this there 
 is blood , a bloody offering, and in the sacrifice of this there 
 is blood, a bloody sacrifice ; and there is no point of doc- 
 trine in the whole system of the Church of Rome, on 
 which she usually makes so determined a stand as this 
 assertion, that after the words of consecration the elements 
 become flesh and blood ; and thus the inconsistency or con- 
 tradiction to which I referred was this — her teaching in one 
 moment, that in the mass the sacrifice is an unbloody one, 
 and in the next moment, that it is transubstantiated into 
 blood; so that in one doctrine all is blood, and in the other 
 all is unbloody ! 
 
 My friend made no attempt at concealing, that he had 
 never observed this before, but he was silent as if revolving 
 it in his mind. He continued so long without replying, 
 that I asked him whether he clearly understood me, and 
 saw the point which I urged. He said fairly that he saw 
 it — that it charged the Church with using the argument 
 both ways and in opposite directions, asserting that there 
 was blood, or teaching that there was no blood, just as 
 suited her purpose. He added very honestly, after a long 
 time for consideration, that he had never heard the difficulty 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 28S 
 
 before — that it struck him as very curious — that he did 
 not see just then how to answer it ; but that he would 
 make it his business to consult a certain Lecturer then in 
 their College, and also their Professor, to whom such ques- 
 tions belonged ; and that after consulting them he would 
 communicate to me their opinions. 
 
 [When next I had the pleasure of meeting him, it was 
 at the Collegio Romano, where we walked and talked a long 
 time together ; but though he stated he had consulted the 
 parties referred to, I was unable to get any intelligible ex- 
 planation of the inconsistency which I had urged, nor in- 
 deed have I ever heard it explained by any one, to whom I 
 have objected it.J 
 
 On reverting to our original point, namely, his statement 
 that the Anglican Church was hastening to her fall, and 
 that I should be necessitated to embrace the Church of 
 Rome, a variety of topics were touched on, and among 
 them the doctrine of the immaculate conception ; on this 
 he expressed himself as believing that the Virgin Mary, 
 the Prophet Jeremiah, and John the Baptist, had all been 
 born without original sin. 
 
 My wife remarked that she could not believe this, for 
 that the Virgin Mary recognised Christ as her Saviour, 
 which implied herself a sinner — that the writings of the 
 prophet Jeremiah were full of acknowledgments of sin — 
 that the Baptist certainly was without all claim to so pecu- 
 liar an exemption, and she was opening the Bible to shew 
 the places to which she referred. 
 
 He said that the doctrine was founded on the words of 
 Scripture — that there could be no question as to the im- 
 maculate conception of the most Holy Virgin, and there- 
 
286 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 fore her freedom from original sin : and that in reference 
 to Jeremiah and the Baptist, it was expressly stated that 
 they were " sanctified from the womb," implying that in 
 their original conception in the womb, they were immacu- 
 late, and as such exempt from original sin. 
 
 I could not forbear smiling at such a frail foundation for 
 such a doctrine, and reminded him that the word '" sanc- 
 tified," as ordinarily used in Holy Scripture, meant, being 
 separated to a holy use, — being set apart from all profane or 
 secular uses, and appropriated or separated to the holy 
 purposes of God, and that this was the case of the Baptist. 
 From the time of his leaving fhe womb of his mother, that 
 is, from the time of his birth, it pleased God to set him 
 apart, and separate him for the holy purpose of being the 
 Herald or Forerunner of the Messiah. 
 
 He replied at once that this was a proof, if proof were 
 wanting, that we could never settle our differences by re- 
 ferring to the Holy Scriptures, inasmuch as we could never 
 agree as to their interpretation. He would not therefore 
 refer to them, but would ask, whether it was possible to 
 doubt the miraculous and immaculate conception of the 
 most Holy Mary, or that she was perfectly sinless — free 
 from all original and actual sin alike ? On perceiving that 
 we dissented altogether on this point, he continued to say 
 that there could be no doubt that she possessed merit — that 
 she was meritorious in the sight of God. On still perceiving 
 that we dissented from such an opinion, he continued to say, 
 that he did not see how any one could deny that there was 
 merit in works, , and that assuredly there was merit in the 
 sufferings undergone by the blessed Mary, in giving birth 
 to the child Jesus. There was no necessity whatever — no 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 
 
 287 
 
 reason whatever why she should have subjected herself to 
 them, and therefore her having actually undergone such 
 sufferings was meritorious. It must have possessed merit 
 in the sight of God. She had some claim upon God for it. 
 There are many things, he added, which the Church calls 
 counsels, not commands, and the difference respecting these 
 is, that" you are under obhgation or necessity to perform 
 commands, — you must obey them or you sin against God ; 
 -but you are under no sort of obligation or necessity to per- 
 form counsels. They are, as it were, an advice for increased 
 usefulness or increased holiness, over and beyond what is 
 necessary for salvation ; and if a man perform these, he 
 has merit in the sight of God, because he has performed 
 them, and thus has made himself more useful and holy 
 than necessary. There was, for example, no kind of ne- 
 cessity upon the young man in the gospel, obliging him to 
 give all he possessed to the poor ; but there was counsel, 
 advice, and he was not bound to take that advice, even though 
 given by our Lord himself; but if he had followed that ad- 
 vice, then undoubtedly he would have had merit with God. 
 My wife replied to all this with expressions of surprise, 
 that any one could hold the doctrine of human merit — that 
 if we but knew our own hearts, we could not but feel our- 
 selves such poor unworthy creatures, such poor miserable 
 sinners, that it seemed impossible to arrive at such a height 
 of presumption, as to imagine we could have merit in the 
 sight of God. We never do — we never can do enough for 
 the God who has done so much for us ; and how she asked, 
 how it is possible for us to do more than enough ? Even 
 after we have done our very utmost, our all, we yet are 
 unworthy sinners : and therefore our Lord has expressly 
 
288 MORNINGS AMONG} 
 
 said, " After ye have done all, say. We are all unprofitable 
 servants, we have done that which it was our duty to do." 
 
 He said that the Church taught that there was a merit 
 in some works — that those works were not natural works, 
 but done by the grace of God, and that God was pleased 
 of his own grace to ascribe merit to them. It was in this 
 way the saints had merit with God. They had by God's 
 grace been enabled to live very holy lives, and to endure 
 many sufferings and to perform many good works. They 
 had been enabled to do all this only by God's grace, and 
 as all this was not necessary to their own salvation, but 
 was supplemental or supernumerary, so all this was meri- 
 torious, and thus gave them an accumulation of merit with 
 God. But still there was nothing presumptuous in this, 
 as it was from first to last of God's grace. 
 
 I said here that I was anxious to understand him clearly : 
 I understood him as saying that although the merit of 
 works was only a merit ascribed to them of the grace of 
 God, and not truly and rightfully belonging to them, yet 
 that the merit was as effectual as if it truly and rightfully 
 belonged to them ; so that a man having performed some 
 such work, might fairly reckon on it and take account of 
 merit for it, and set it down against his sins — against the 
 punishment his sins deserved. I added, that I inferred 
 that this was his view, from what he had just said of the 
 merit of the saints, implying, as I thought, that by such 
 works of merit, a man might obtain or work out for him- 
 self more merit than he wanted for his forgiveness and 
 salvation. In short a man could be more righteous, holy, 
 and meritorious than God required of him. 
 
 He assented to this. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 289 
 
 I then asked, whether I was to understand him as 
 implying that a man might, hy following the counsels of 
 the Church of which he spoke, obtain a large accession of 
 merit, and then set this down, so to speak, — if I might 
 speak it with reverence, — in a sort of account with God, as 
 if keeping a debtor-and-creditor account with heaven ; and 
 that thus, by increasing the sum of his meritorious actions, 
 so far lessen the balance of sin that was against him, and 
 thus diminish the amount of suffering or punishment for 
 his sins. 
 
 He smiled and said, that though it seemed an unusual 
 way of stating the point, yet the truth was very much as I 
 stated it — that this merit went to lessen, not the sins, as I 
 had said, but the temporary sufferings and temporary 
 punishment due to those sins. He added that the truth was 
 that the Church taught more than this, namely, that as a 
 man could work out for himself more merit than was re- 
 quired for his own salvation — that as a man could thus ac- 
 cumulate merit, superfluous and supererogatory, it formed 
 or went to form a sort of treasury of superabundant merits 
 in the Church. 
 
 I replied that I had so understood the doctrine of the 
 Church of Rome — that I had lately procured a small 
 volume published by the order of Jesuits, setting forth 
 all " the pious works " to which certain specified indul- 
 gences are ' attached ; and that in this volume it is ex- 
 pressly stated, that the superabundant merits of individuals 
 — the merits which they have possessed over and beyond 
 what was required for their own salvation, formed a sort 
 of treasury of merit in the Church ; and that the Pope, as 
 the Head of the Church, had the disposal of all this super- 
 
 
 
290 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 fluous merit, and could apply it to persons here or in pur- 
 gatory as it might seem good to him — that thus he could 
 lessen the period of suffering in the fires of purgatory, by 
 what was called a partial indulgence, and annihilate the 
 whole by what was called a plenary indulgence. I added 
 that this was a doctrine too evident in everything that was 
 to be seen in Rome, and that all my views of the truth of 
 Holy Scripture — all my opinions of God's revealed word — 
 all my feelings as to my own poor sinful soul, which ought 
 to be humbled to the dust, revolted against such notions. 
 The doctrine of human merit seemed to me unbecoming 
 and unnatural, irreconcilable with human experience, and 
 contrary to the plainest language of Holy Scripture ; but 
 bad and unseemly as it was in itself, it seemed to me 
 hideous and monstrous when carried to the outrageous ex- 
 travagance of constituting a treasury of superfluous merits, 
 for the Pope or any poor mortal to distribute or apportion 
 to others in the way of indulgences to release them from 
 purgatory. 
 
 He said that he was not surprised at our repugnance to 
 it, and that he could not expect that we should receive it 
 at first ; but that after some more instruction we should 
 feel the diflSculty pass away, in this as in many other par- 
 ticulars. 
 
 My wife said that nothing could reconcile us to this. It 
 always was and always must be a fatal objection to the 
 Church of Rome, with all earnest and sincere Christians. 
 She could never forget that it was this very point, carried 
 out in the matter of indulgences, that first led Martin 
 Luther to the work of the Reformation ; and she added, 
 that day after day it was forced upon her memory at Rome; 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 291 
 
 for whenever she looked on that nohle church of St. 
 Peter's, she coulfl never fail to rememher the means by 
 which much of it was erected ; — that a large amount of 
 the money to defray the cost of its erection, was raised by 
 the sale of indulgences : so that in her memory and ima- 
 gination, the Reformation of Luther was always connected 
 with the erection of St.* Peter's — the unscriptural doctrines 
 of human merit and of papal indulgences. 
 
 I was unwilling that this subject should pass away 
 hastily, as if it were not a matter of the first and last im- 
 portance, and therefore I remarked, with the view of lead- 
 ing farther into a subject involving so much of the essence 
 of the Gospel, that Martin Luther felt very strongly on 
 the point of human merit, and that he held that a man 
 could never be justified by works, and could only be justi- 
 fied by faith in Christ. He held that the doctrine of jus- 
 tification was the question by which a standing and a fall- 
 ing church were to be distinguished. 
 
 He replied with great vehemence that Luther was a bad 
 man — an immoral man, inasmuch as his writings led to 
 immorality, and his life was horribly immoral — that he 
 held that no actions were good — that there were no good 
 works — that it was no matter whether a man did good or 
 evil — in short, it was perfectly astounding the wickedness 
 which he taught ; and yet, he added, Luther was a great 
 man — a man of wonderful talent and power, and he stopped 
 at nothing. He was a great man, but he was an awful 
 one. He showed in his writings that his opinion was 
 against all good works — that there were no good works, 
 and that even if there were, they were useless. The zeal 
 and vehemence of my friend against Luther, led him to 
 2 
 
292 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 say more, and to express himself more strongly and warmly, 
 than is necessary to repeat here. 
 
 I said that I apprehended that Luther was much mis- 
 represented, and indeed that the doctrine of the gospel and 
 of the Anglican Church, was much misunderstood, on the 
 subject of faith on the one hand, and works on the other. 
 I then narrated an interesting incident of a Roman Catho- 
 lic priest, who once called on me in private to lay open the 
 state of his mind. We had long and deeply interesting 
 conversations on many points, but there remained what he 
 regarded as a fatal objection to the Church of England and 
 all Protestant Churches. They all, as he said, flung good 
 works aside, and taught that men could be saved without 
 them, and he felt that no man could be saved unless he 
 lived a holy life unto God. The reply which I made to 
 him was, that he was evidently under a mistake — that all 
 Protestant Churches, and especially the Church of .Eng- 
 land, held the necessity of holiness or good works ; but in 
 a different way, and for a different end from what he 
 imagined. The truth of the Holy Scriptures, I said, was 
 this : There is the Son of God, and there is the Holy 
 Ghost, both the second and third persons of the Trinity — 
 both the one and the other of these has his own peculiar 
 or special department in the economy of man's salvation. 
 The work or office of the Son, Jesus Christ, is to justify 
 us, that is, to take away our sins, and make us accepted 
 through his merits in the sight of God. This is called 
 our justification, and it is ours solely through faith in Jesus 
 Christ, without any works or deservings on our part. It is 
 wholly through faith and without works. But this, I said, 
 was the office or department of Jesus Christ. There was 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 293 
 
 then the office and department of the Holy Spirit. He 
 was to take in hand those who were justified by faith, and 
 He was to make them holy ; holy in thought, holy in feel- 
 ing, holy in desire, holy in aspirations, and holy in their 
 whole lives, leading them and teaching them, and enabling 
 them to live in prayer and humility and good works, and 
 all that partook of the example of Jesus Christ. And 
 thus, I continued, we hold that our justification, which is 
 the office of the Son of God, is solely by faith and without 
 works, while' we hold -that our sanctification, which is the 
 work of the Holy Ghost, is manifested in every good word 
 and work. Now Protestants hold both one and the other 
 of these, but we do not like to confound them. "We hold 
 that the justification by Jesus Christ is necessary, and we 
 also hold that the sanctification by the Holy Spirit is also 
 necessary — the former being through faith, the latter being 
 a consequence and never a cause of the former ; and there- 
 fore it ought never to be said of our Protestant Churches, 
 that we reject the practice of good works. We put both 
 faith and works in their proper and relative places, and we 
 do not like to confound them, and we shrink from sup- 
 posing that there is merit in either the one or the other. I 
 added that this view of the question completely satisfied 
 the Roman Catholic priest, and shortly afterwards he re- 
 nounced the Church of Rome, and is now a minister of the 
 Church of England. 
 
 My reverend friend listened to this very attentively, and 
 stated that he quite understood it, but he wished to know 
 why we denied merit to the good and holy works of the 
 justified man, 
 
 I answered this with an apology for having already said 
 
294 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 SO much, when I rather wished to be informed by hearing 
 his opinions ; but that if he could bear a httle with me, I 
 would endeavour to mal^e some excuse for our Protestant 
 views on this subject. I then said, that we held that poor 
 and infirm and sinful creatures, such as we are, can do no 
 good thing ; that is, nothing good in the searching eye of a 
 Holy God, unless as His Holy Spirit gives us His grace. 
 It is not we, but the Holy Spirit that does the good work 
 in us. If we have a good thought — if we have a holy 
 wish — if we have an heavenly desire — ^if we have done" a 
 good thing, it has been the Holy Spirit who has planted 
 it in us, or enabled us to do it. Whatever holy thought 
 we think, and whatever good work we are enabled to per- 
 form, the praise and merit belong not to us, but to the 
 Holy Spirit who has done it in us. The merit is His and 
 not ours, and it is a wrong and injury to Him for us to 
 claim it as if it were ours. The great truth, I said, was 
 this — our good and holy works, so far from making us 
 creditors vrith God, as if we had a claim on him on account 
 of our merits, do really bring us in more and more debtOTs 
 to God. The more holy thoughts we have, and the more good 
 works we do, even so much the more are we made debtors 
 unto God the Holy Ghost, by whose inspiration we were 
 enabled to think the one or do the other. It has been 
 some new and additional grace of the Holy Spirit, and it 
 therefore makes us debtors more than ever. This I added, 
 was the view I took of this subject ; feeling that our hearts 
 were poor, weak, miserable things, and that when rightly 
 conscious of our real state, as our fallen hearts appear be- 
 fore God, the very last thought that can be congenial to the 
 mind, is that which could have connection with human merit. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 295 
 
 I cannot say that tny reverend friend was much affected 
 by this mode of stating the subject. He heard it however 
 with marked attention and respect. It seemed to com- 
 mend itself to his better feelings, and I could only pray 
 that the time might come, when circumstances might bring 
 such views home to his convictions and his heart. 
 
 He merely said that there was what the Church called 
 the himility of merit, and that the sentiments I had uttered 
 were of that nature. He then turned away to some opinions 
 of St. Augustine and St. Bernard, and on these we con- 
 versed for a short time, and soon afterwards he retired with 
 his companion. 
 
 NOTE. 
 
 In the foregoing conversation I endeavoured to exhibit 
 a manifest inconsistency between the doctrine of Transub- 
 stantiation and the doctrine of the Mass. By the former 
 it is taught that the wine is changed into the blood of 
 Christ, and that thus there is the presence of blood. By 
 the latter it is expressly taught that the offering is an un- 
 bloody one ; in other words, that the mass is an unbloody 
 offering of blood. 
 
 This inconsistency received no solution at the time when 
 I urged it,. but it has been since deemed deserving or re- 
 quiring some explanation. It will be seen at once that this 
 has come from Rome, and especially from the Collegio 
 Romano. It is as follows : 
 
 " Again, he makes his Jesuit opponent confounded at being 
 told, for the first time in bis life, that the Mass is called an un- 
 
296 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 bloody sacrifice, which he conceives is a manifest contradictiQii 
 to the doctrine of transuhstantiation, which teaches that the 
 blood of our blessed Lord is actually offered. On this mare's 
 nest of our author's we cannot forbear quoting Father Mazio's 
 remarks. ' I will only say a few words,' he says, ' on that ter- 
 rible dilemma^ on the sacrifice of the Mass, which, according to 
 his afiirraation, puzzled me so much, that I declared I would 
 consult some professor of theology on it, though I never after- 
 wards gave a solution ; nay, no divine, however eminent, could 
 even attempt to give an explanation of it. How is the Mass 
 called an unbloody sacrifice, if the wine is transubstantiated 
 into bloodl It is on one side all blood, and on the other all 
 unbloody .'. . . .When I read first this objection (because I never 
 Aeard it from him), I laughed very heartily ; and surely every 
 sensible Catholic must do so. I would ask Mr. Seymour 
 what he means by bloody ! Is it the presence of blood, or the 
 effusion of it, which makes a thing bloody ! If the former, then 
 a scholastic debate would be a Moody conflict, because the con- 
 tenders have living blood it their veins, and very hot too. If 
 the latter, then how could he propose an objection such as the 
 above mentioned ? In the sacrifice of the Cross there was a real 
 effusion ofall the blood from Christ's body, so that his blood 
 was separated from it, and he died. But no such real effusion 
 of the blood is there, or can there be, in the sacrifice of the Mass. 
 It is, indeed, the Catholic doctrine and belief, that by the words 
 of the consecration the substance of the wine is changed into 
 Christ's blood; but this is by way of concomitance with the body, 
 soul, and divinity of Christ; because Christ cannot suffer any 
 more — non confractus, non concisus : He is in a glorified state, 
 and his blood cannot exist without the whole humanity and 
 divinity. The effusion, then, and immolation, is but a mystical 
 one; that is, the words of the double consecration have, by 
 Divine institution, such an eflScacy as to make directly and dis- 
 tinctly (though not separately) present, by the transuhstantia- 
 tion of the bread and the wine, the body of Christ in one case, 
 the blood of Cjirist in the other, though by conpomitance the 
 whole Christ is present in both. By this distinction of conse- 
 cration and double direct presence, Christ is represented dying 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 297 
 
 as a victim ; and so, as the Council of Trent expresses it, the, 
 victim offered is the same with that on the cross, viz., Christ 
 really, truly, and suhstantially present ; though the manner of 
 offering it is different, the one heing bloody, the other un- 
 bloody.' " 
 
 The meaning of all this, cleared of such cloudy verbiage 
 as " the words of double consecration," and " double di- 
 rect presence," and such language of obscurity — seems to 
 be that the victim is real, but the sacrifice unreal — that the 
 victim is bloody, but the sacrifice unbloody. lu other 
 words, that Christ is present, b'ut is not sacrificed — is 
 present with his blood, but not sacrificed with the shedding 
 of his blood. 
 
 It not unfrequently occurs, that in endeavouring to 
 escape from one difficulty we become inejctricably entangled 
 in another. 
 
 The Canons of the Council of Trent assert, and pro- 
 nounce an anathema against all who deny it, that " in the 
 mass there is offered a true, proper, and propitiatory 
 sacrifice for sins." And the Council specifies the victim 
 and asserts its immolation ; " since in this divine sacrifice, 
 which is performed in the mass, the very same Christ is 
 contained, and immolated unhloodily, who offered himself 
 bloodily on the altar of the cross, the Holy Council teaches 
 that that sacrifice is truly propitiatory." 
 
 In order to form a right conception of the essentials of 
 a propitiatory sacrifice, we must look to the propitiatory 
 sacrifices of the former dispensation. The slightest know- 
 ledge of these shows the necessity of two things., namely, 
 the presence or offering of a living victim, and then its 
 immolation or shedding of its blood to death. The living 
 victim was produced, offered, and accepted in the name 
 5 
 
298 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 and in the stead of the transgressor. It was then immo- 
 lated, and its hlood shed unto death, thus undergoing the 
 sentence of the law in the name and in the stead of the 
 transgressor. The Lord Jesus Christ became our victim. 
 His bleeding and dying on the cross was the immolation. 
 
 It is held by the Church of Rome that the propitiatory 
 sacrifice of the mass is the very same — one and identical 
 with the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ on the cross. And 
 that it therefore has the very same propitiatory power — the 
 one and identical atoning eflScacy as that on the cross. This 
 dogma is founded on transubstantiation — on the notion 
 that the bread and wine, in other words, that the conse- 
 crated host or wafer, is literally and. in essential substance, 
 the same Jesus Christ who died on the cross. They thus 
 hold that they have the same victim. 
 
 But even supposing — which may be done for the sake 
 of argument — that-they have the very same victim, it is 
 apparent that that is not enough to constitute a propitiatory 
 sacrifice. There must be the bloodshedding and death of 
 that victim. The latter is manifestly as essential as the 
 former, for the production of the victim under the law was 
 not the sacrifice, but only the preliminary to the sacrifice. 
 The immolation and bloodshedding must follow, or it is 
 nothing. 
 
 Yet they admit here that there is not, and that there 
 cannot be, in the sacrifice of the mass, either the death or 
 the shedding of blood, or the immolation of the victim ; in 
 other words, that the victim is not a victim, and the sacri- 
 fice is not a sacrifice ! They say — 
 
 " In the sacrifice of the cross there was a real effusion of all 
 the blood of Christ's body, sothat His blood was separated from 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 299 
 
 it, and He died. But no such real effusion of the blood is there 
 or can there be, in the sacrifice of the Mass. It is indeed the 
 Catholic doctrine and belief that by the words of consecration 
 the substance of the wine is changed into Christ's blood ; but this 
 is by way of concomitance with the body, soul, and divinity of 
 Christ, because Christ cannot suffer any more,— nora confractus, 
 non concisus. He is in a glorified state, and his blood cannot 
 exist without the whole humanity and divinity. The effusion 
 then, and immolation, is but a mystical one." 
 
 There is here not a parallel, to show the identity of the 
 sacrifice of the mass with the sacrifice of the cross, hut a 
 contrast, to show their complete diversity ! There is the 
 same victim, but not the same death — the same victim, hut 
 not the same immolation — the same victim, but not the 
 same shedding of blood. And the reason assigned, namely, 
 that " He is in a glorified state," and therefore cannot die, 
 cannot shed his blood, cannot be immolated, is demonstra- 
 tion that the so-called sacrifice of the mass is not the same 
 with the sacrifice of the cross. 
 
 The language of Holy Scripture is explicit : " It is the 
 blood that maketh atonement for the soul," and " without 
 shedding of blood there is no remission." And therefore 
 if the mass he unbloody — if there be no shedding of blood, 
 there is in it neither atonement nor remission. 
 
 Nor is there reason or consistency in such an interpre- 
 tation of the words of our Lord — " This is my blood which 
 is shed for you," as these doctrines require. In order to 
 have the same victim that died on the cross (as transub- 
 stautiation requires) they insist on a literal interpretation 
 of the words, " This is my blood ; " and in order to avoid 
 the charge of shedding his blood (as involved in the sacri- 
 fice of the mass) they insist on a mystical or figurative 
 
300 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 interpretation of the latter words " which is shed for you ! " 
 And thus they pretend that the victim is real, and the 
 shedding of blood figurative ! Here is the true inconsis- 
 tency of the system ; they pretend to have a real victim, 
 but a figurative shedding of its blood — a real victim, but a 
 figurative death — a real victim, but a figurative sacrifice. 
 In other words, they profess to have a bloody victim, but 
 an unbloody sacrifice. The doctrine of transubstantiation 
 requires the presence of blood ; the doctrine of the mass 
 requires the sacrifice to be unbloody ! 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 301 
 
 CHAPTER X. 
 
 THE CELIBACY OP THE CLERGY — A NEW BEATITUDE— GRACE GIVEN IN 
 THE SACRAMENT OP MATRIMONY— CERTAINTY IN THE CHURCH OF 
 ROME — CONSECRATION OP THE MASS— OTHER UNCERTAINTIES — INTER- 
 PRETATION OF HOLY SCRIPTURE. 
 
 Whenever I had reason to expect a visit from one of the 
 Jesuits, I considered beforehand what subject I should 
 suggest for conversation : I felt that in general it was in 
 my power to lead the conversation in any direction, or to 
 any topic upon which I might he disposed to ask for in- 
 formation. But there were occasions when my _, visitors 
 took the lead, or rather, when I was obliged in courtesy, to 
 continue the subject introduced by them. And this some- 
 times led me into topics which I should never have se- 
 lected, but which I could not avoid. 
 
 It was an occasion of this kind when one of my friends, 
 with whom I had conversed much and often, was an- 
 nounced. He came from the Collegio Romano. 
 
 I apologized for my apparent inattention in not return- 
 ing his many visits, excusing myself on the plea, most 
 truly urged, that I was incessantly occupied in visiting the 
 ruins of classic Rome, and the churches of Christian 
 
302 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Rome ; and I added that my attendance on the several 
 funcioni, or ceremonies, processions, exhibitions, and other 
 oflBces of the Church, interesting as they were to me, ab- 
 sorbed my whole time. 
 
 He replied with great kindness and affabiUty, most 
 courteously saying that as we were " religious " (i. e. under 
 sacred vows, from religo, to bind) we must ha /rati, as 
 brothers, and not stand on ceremony with each other. He 
 added that there was much to be given up — much to be 
 denied to ourselves, and that we must live in a state of 
 self-denial, a state of separation. He said this with the 
 appearance of more meaning than the words themselves 
 seemed to imply ; and then turning to my wife, said to 
 her expressly, that really the " religious" [the term 
 usually applied to all who, as monks or nuns, are members 
 of monastic establishments, have taken the vow of celibacy, 
 &c,J had much to endure, for they had much to abandon 
 and renounce, — that they are obhged by their vows to 
 separate themselves from every thing, giving up the world 
 and forming no ties, none of the ties of fife with the world. 
 They are often, he said, obliged to forsake or resign riches, 
 rank, all, and to live in a state of constant self-denial. And 
 this was no easy matter. The way to everlasting life was 
 narrow ; — our Lord had said, " Strait is the gate and narrow 
 is the way that leadeth unto life, and few there be that 
 find it." It was indeed far — very far from an easy course ; 
 for we must deny ourselves and take up our cross daily, 
 ^any — very many of the " religious" give up their all in 
 this world for this cross. Some of us are nobles and 
 wealthy, even princes, and yet they have given up all. 
 Even myself, he added, I gave up all. I ought not to speak 
 
THE JESniTS AT ROME. 803 
 
 of myself, but I had an independent fortune. However, we 
 must deny ourselves, and give up all for the glory of God. 
 We must do something for ourselves. God gives us the 
 power to help ourselves, and with that power we must do 
 something to advance ourselves in the narrow way of eternal 
 life, " We must leave father, and mother, and brethren, and 
 sisters, and wife," and all, we must give up all, we must 
 separate from all, but there is a promise that we shall be 
 recompensed. We must do something for ourselves. 
 
 He continued in this strain for some time without any 
 interruption from either my wife or myself. We remained 
 in the attitude of respectful listeners, assenting to much 
 that fell from him, but feeling that there was something 
 in his mind that went beyond the precise meaning of his 
 words. He spoke so much of self-denial and separation, 
 terms that at Rome ordinarily mean a life of celibacy, and 
 he alluded so much to the " religious," who are the monks 
 and nuns of the monastic or conventual system, that he 
 appeared to have something ulterior in view. 
 
 As soon as he concluded an address unusually long, and 
 seemingly prepared for the occasion; my wife rose to with- 
 draw to keep some engagement ; but as she withdrew she 
 said pleasantly to our friend, that she was sure he could 
 
 not approve of the course taken by Mr. , who was a 
 
 married man, and who had put his wife into a nunnery, 
 and thus made himself free — getting rid of his wife on the 
 plea of religion ! 
 
 He replied, laughing, that there was no knowing what 
 she herself might yet do — that on a future opportunity he 
 would mention an extraordinary fact which had led Mr. 
 to take so decided a step. But at all events it was a 
 
S04 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 step which was not obligatory on all men, or to be required 
 of any ; that for himself he would never advise such a 
 course, though he still felt that there were circumstances 
 that might justify and even recommend it. That as for 
 Mr. and his wife, they were persons very pure- 
 minded, and disinterested in the course they had taken — 
 that as for her she really was an angel. But he added, in 
 allusion to my anticipated conversion, that Mrs. Seymour 
 need not be uneasy on that point. 
 
 After a few sallies of pleasantry on so delicate a subject, 
 my wife said she was not afraid, and withdrew to keep her 
 engagement. The reverend Padre and myself sat down 
 together. 
 
 He commenced at once the moment my wife had with- 
 drawn, to say that it was a mark of the Catholic Church 
 to be holy — and that it was a great mark of that holiness 
 that her priests were holy — separated from the world — 
 divested of the ties of life — prohibited from marriage, and 
 thus holy and separated unto God. But, he added in an 
 expressive tone — " This was not demanded of every man." 
 
 I said that I had heard and read that a life of celibacy 
 was held in the Church of Rome to be what they call a 
 Counsel, or Advice, that is, a course which may well be 
 recommended and advised, but which was not absolutely 
 obligatory ; — that a man obtained merit with God for living 
 in that state, but that he was under no obligation so far as 
 his salvation was concerned, to follow it. 
 
 He stated, that such was the true state of the question, 
 but that in claiming merit for a state of celibacy, there 
 was nothing implied in prejudice to the state of marriage. 
 On the other hand, according to the Catholic faith, mar- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 305 
 
 riage was a sacrament, and actually conferred a special 
 grace — a sacramental grace. But he added, married people 
 know how they may separate at times in order that they 
 may he holy. 
 
 I said that I helieved that I understood him. 
 
 He rejoined, that he was sure I fully apprehended him 
 — that the fact was that there was a grace given in Orders 
 in the Catholic Church — that they were not ordained to 
 the Priesthood till they had attained a certain age, when 
 they knew by experience that they could continue holy — 
 and when they knew all their difficulties and temptations, 
 and at the same time understood what they were doing, 
 before they took the final vows. And then there was a 
 grace — a special grace for the Priests of the Catholic 
 Church, by which they were able to keep themselves pure 
 and holy, and free from the feelings and desires and passions 
 of other men. And you, he added, you know that both 
 our Lord and St. Paul have recommended a life of celibacy. 
 
 I remarked, in as gentle and conversational a tone as I 
 could command, that whatever were my views and impres- 
 sions as to cehbacy as a theory, yet my experience of man- 
 kind was not calculated to satisfy me — that my experience 
 in the world led me rather to regard the married men as a 
 body, as generally more holy, in the sense of pureness from 
 immorality and the sins of the flesh, than the unmarried 
 men. I added, in a tone of quiet confidence, that though 
 I fully believed, and indeed knew, that many who had 
 taken the vows, had lived not only in celibacy, but also in 
 chastity, yet I believed that in the main it was far other- 
 wise. I expressed myself with as much gentleness as I 
 could command, in speaking on a subject neither very deli- 
 
306 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 cate nor very easy ; but I said plainly that I entertained a 
 very decided feeling against celibacy — the enforced celibacy 
 of the clergy. They, of all men, ought to be married. 
 
 He said that the Catholic Church had always enforced 
 celibacy on her Priesthood — that our Lord and St. Paul 
 had recommended it to all men — that the Primitive Fathers 
 had all practised it — and that in all ages of the Church it 
 was the universal tradition. And he added, the Priesthood 
 was certainly pure, the priests were very holy, for that 
 there was a special grace in the Catholic Church for them. 
 
 I repeated, as if speaking reluctantly, but firmly, that 
 my experience of the world was against the system — that 
 men who had a knowledge of the world and of the realities 
 of human nature, were generally against it. And that how- 
 ever it might be, and certainly was advantageous to the 
 Church of Rome in a political sense, as isolating her clergy, 
 and so separating them as to make them indepeudant of 
 the ordinary ties of life and of society ; yet that it was 
 practically not conducive to morality, but mischievous both 
 to the individuals and to society. 
 
 He repelled this very warmly — indeed with more warmth 
 than was becoming — and he challenged me to specify par- 
 ticulars. 
 
 I felt that the subject was a difficult one — dif&cult from 
 its own nature — difficult from the warmth exhibited by my 
 friend — and specially difficult when I considered that celi- 
 bacy was too much regarded as identified with morality and 
 holiness in Eome ; so that in impeaching the system of an 
 enforced celibacy, I seemed in a manner impeaching the 
 morality and holiness of the ecclesiastics of Rome, with all 
 their convents and monks and monasteries of nuns. I felt 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 307 
 
 my difficulty, and endeavoured to reply to his warm ex- 
 pressions with all the coolness" and collectedness I could 
 command, saying that my feeling was shared in common hy 
 some countries devoted to the Church of Eome — that hoth 
 in Mexico and the Brazils the priesthood had petitioned 
 the Pope within the last few years for permission to marry 
 — that the permission heing refused, they were in large 
 numbers living in a state of concubinage — and that the 
 population did not conceal their feeling that such men were 
 to be preferred, as being more respectable in their conduct, 
 as being actually less injurious to the peace of families and 
 the general morality of society. I added that I could form 
 no opinion on such a state of things, farther than as I had 
 read of it in the works of modern travellers in those coun- 
 tries ; but that he himself could not but be aware that 
 within" the last few years a petition had been addressed to 
 the Pope on the subject from some of the Austrian priest- 
 hood, praying for a rescinding of the prohibition of mar- 
 riage, and that the Pope had noticed it in very strong terms 
 in his encyclical letters. I therefore said expressly that 
 my friend could not be ignorant ot the fact. 
 
 He made no reply to this, but seemed to me as if wait- 
 ing for me to let out my whole mind, that he might dispose 
 of my objections at once. I therefore added, that what- 
 ever might be said in favour of a state of celibacy in those 
 persons who could honestly live in it, as no doubt many 
 good men did, yet a celibacy imposed on a large body, and 
 imposed on that large body without any exceptions, — a 
 large body like the priesthood, and monks, and friars, and 
 other ecclesiastical persons, all men of like passions, and 
 the same flesh and blood as the laity — a celibacy thus im- 
 
308 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 posed on young men at the age of twenty-three, and then 
 enforced on all their after-life, could not in the nature of 
 things but work injuriously among so large and numerous 
 a body, whose very profession opens to them such great 
 and numerous opportunities. 
 
 He could not conceal the warmth of his feelings at this 
 statement. He shewed both angel* and indignation at my 
 remarks, as if he felt them personal to himself. In this he 
 was most mistaken, for there was no man in Rome to whom 
 I should less willingly have applied what I had said, for 
 I believed him to be a good man, according to his views. 
 But there is no subject on which the Reman priesthood 
 feel so keenly as on this subject of celibacy. He was led 
 by his feelings to express himself very strongly — indeed in 
 terms too strong for courtesy. After some vehement and 
 rather coarse expressions as to innovations, lies, falsehoods, 
 &c., he proceeded to say, that the doctrine of a celibacy 
 among the clergy was held in my own Church, the Church 
 of England — that a large party of her clergy have practi- 
 cally adopted it, and are recommending it to others. He 
 added, that although I might not be aware of it, he knew 
 it to be the fact. 
 
 I said, as gently as I was able, that I was quite prepared 
 to believe it — that I believed many of the Anglican clergy 
 preferred a life of celibacy — that the great peculiarity of the 
 English Church, as declared in her Articles, is that the 
 clergy ought to marry or remain unmarried, according as 
 they found it most favourable to holiness of life, — that the 
 Church of England left to her clergy the most perfect 
 freedom, forbidding nothing, except unholiness, — that her 
 clergy therefore act in this matter, as seems best to their 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 309 
 
 own judgment — that the Church does not interfere — that 
 that which we object to is an imposed, an enforced celibacy. 
 If a priest of the Church of Rome wishes to marry — if in 
 his conscience he feels he ought to marry — if from his phy- 
 sical or natural constitution he must choose between sinning 
 or marrying — you will not permit him, you compel him 
 to keep the vow imposed and undertaken when he was yet 
 only a youth, and had no real experience of human nature. 
 It is to this celibacy — this imposed and enforced celibacy, 
 and not to a voluntary celibacy, we object. I added, that if 
 he alluded to any change of feeling on the subject among 
 the Protestant clergy of England, he ought to remember 
 that there was also a change of feeling in precisely the 
 opposite direction, now working among the Romish clergy 
 of Germany. 
 
 He answered very warmly, that these German priests 
 were only a few contemptible rebels against the centre of 
 unity, and that neither themselves nor their proceedings 
 deserved notice. The Church, he said, was always in favour 
 of a celibacy among the clergy — that St. Paul was de- 
 cidedly in favour of it, saying, it was better to remain 
 unmarried. 
 
 I said, that St. Paul certainly recommended, that in the 
 then circumstances of the Christians, they would do well 
 to avoid making unnecessary ties — that the destruction of 
 Jerusalem was at hand — that all Christians must be pre- 
 pared for persecution-^that therefore at the present time 
 it would be most wise to avoid every unnecessary tie or 
 difficulty. The Apostle thus advised celibacy during the 
 present distress, and assigns that cause, as well as that 
 period for his advice. " I suppose," says St. Paul, " that 
 
310 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 this is good /or the present distress." His advice, I added, 
 was thus applicable to the then circumstances of trial and 
 persecution of the Church, and was not intended to apply 
 to the peaceful and tranquil times of Christianity. 
 
 He at once denied that the Apostle named, or designed 
 to name any such limitation — that the Church was always 
 in distress, always in trials, difficulties, sufferings, and thus 
 the distress was always present : and that as the Church 
 was always in " the present distress," so the rule or re- 
 commendation of the Apostle was always applicable. And, 
 besides this, our Lord, the blessed Jesus Christ himself 
 had recommended it. 
 
 I said, I was not aware of it, and asked, wherein had our 
 Lord recommended it ? 
 
 His reply was to the effect, that he was sure that I re- 
 membered it ; that I could not have forgotten it. 
 
 I stated, that I was not aware of what he alluded to, and 
 that I did not recollect any words of our Lord conveying 
 what he intimated. 
 
 He answered, with an expression of face somewhat sur- 
 prised and mysterious, that surely I must remember it was 
 one of the Beatitudes mentioned by our Lord. 
 
 I asked him what he meant, for that I did not under- 
 stand him. I was not aware of our Lord's having declared 
 that celibacy was one of the Beatitudes. 
 
 " O yes," he replied, " you must remember his words. 
 It is one of the Beatitudes, — you remember he says in his 
 Sermon on the Mount, /iaKapioi ita-i at emovxnt. — It is one of 
 the Beatitudes, you cannot but remember the words." 
 
 I could not but smile at this new and strange Beatitude. 
 My friend expressed himself in Italian, and I give his words 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 311 
 
 in Greek for obvious reasons, especially as the Italian phrase 
 is peculiarly objectionable to the general reader. I could 
 not convince him that he had made a mistake. He was 
 perfectly assured that this strange and unnatural state was 
 really one of the Beatitudes mentioned by our Lord ; and 
 I was wholly unable to convince him, until I produced the 
 Greek Testament, and shewed him our Lord's Sermon on the 
 Mount. He seemed perfectly bewildered : so little do some 
 of these theologians of Rome know of the Holy Scriptures ! 
 
 A good deal that related to personal religion followed be- 
 tween us, and afterwards -he said, that if I pursued the 
 right way, there would be trial, separation from this world, 
 and many prejudices to overcome, and influences to coun- 
 teract ; but that my comfort and reward would be found 
 connected with the great hereafter. He then returned to 
 our previous topic, and said, that in the Catholic Church 
 there was a peculiar grace for her priesthood, by which they 
 were enabled to continue holy. 
 
 I asked whether he had any authority in Scripture — 
 whether he could produce any promise in Scripture for that 
 peculiar grace of which he spoke. 
 
 He made no reply to this, but merely added that he did 
 not mean to say anything against marriage, for that he 
 approved of it — that it was an institution of God, and that 
 the Church held that it conferred a special grace, and that 
 he therefore could not recommend, and would shrink from 
 recommending any man to leave his wife, for he felt it 
 ought not to be done, unless under very peculiar circum- 
 stances that seemed to imply a special call. 
 
 I felt that this was only a sort of reservation — that these 
 " peculiar circumstances" and this " special call" opened 
 
312 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 a very wide door to men leaving their wives. The instance 
 referred to at the conimencement of his conversation, was 
 an instance of this. However, I said nothing on the point, 
 and wished to bring the subject to a conclusion — it was 
 already sufficiently long — so I stated that I wished he 
 would solve a difficulty that had long pressed on my mind, 
 in reference to the doctrines of the Church of Rome on 
 this subject. 
 
 He courteously assented, and placed himself in the atti- 
 tude of an attentive listener. 
 
 I said that my difficulty arose from the apparent clash- 
 ing of two doctrines of the Church of Rome on this subject. 
 It was held by her that celibacy was a state of life more 
 full of grace and holiness than marriage — that the unmar- 
 ried are, as such, more holy than the married — that priests 
 and monks and nuns are, in the very fact of their .being 
 vowed to an unmarried state, more holy and full of grace 
 than those who are married. This principle I stated I 
 could well understand, even though I could not believe or 
 approve it. I could well understand it, when considered 
 alone and in itself; but I could not understand at all, when 
 considered in connection with another docti;ine of the 
 Church of Rome. That other doctrine was, that marriage 
 was a sacrament, and that as such, marriage was a further 
 means of grace, and brought an increase of grace to its reci- 
 pients ; so that the married man as such received more 
 grace, or an additional grace, than he had previously. It 
 led to this — that the unmarried man was more holy and 
 full of grace than the married, and yet by marrying he re- 
 ceived more grace and holiness than before. And thus by 
 one doctrine celibacy was - more gracious and holy than 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 313 
 
 marriage ; and by the other, marriage conferred a grace or 
 hohaess additional to that of celibacy ! I added, that 
 though this seemed to my poor judgment a curious incon- 
 sistency and contradiction, yet it was possible he might be 
 able to reconcile them ; and I then reminded him, that in 
 the commencement of this conversation he had asserted the 
 superior grace given in the Catholic Church to those who 
 lived in celibacy, and that just now he asserted that there 
 was an additional grace conferred by the sacrament of mar- 
 riage. I was proceeding thus, when I perceived he either 
 wished to avoid the subject, or at least was not listening to 
 me. He seemed thinking of something else. I paused 
 for a reply. 
 
 He answered as if he had never heard me, saying there 
 was no certainty, no security for anything in the Church 
 of England — that he could not understand how I could 
 continue in a Church so full of doubts and uncertainty — in 
 a Church in which all was doubtful and nothing certain — 
 a Church whose doctrines depended on private judgment, 
 and therefore depended on the changing judgment of every 
 individual, and which therefore could give no real satisfac- 
 tion or contentment to the mind that looked for certainty 
 and stability. He then asked me in a very kind, gentle, 
 and winning way, whether I did not feel my mind more 
 inclined than before to repose itself far away from the 
 doubtfulness of the Church of England, in the certainties 
 of the Catholic Church — the Church of Rome. 
 
 I could not hide from myself that this was no more than 
 an attempt to evade my enquiry as to the inconsistencies 
 between his views of celibacy and marriage ; and I really 
 wished to fasten the subject on him so as to force a reply 
 
314 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 on a point so interesting to me, but I felt that caution on 
 my part was absolutely necessary, and I must do nothing 
 that looked like a desire to obtain a triumph in argument ; 
 I feared the consequence from an Order all-powerful at 
 Rome. And at the same time I must not hide the fact, 
 that when his words suggested the point of the compara- 
 tive certainty of the doctrines of the two Churches, I felt 
 that it was a subject that was in no degree less interesting 
 than that which I was thus forced to abandon, and that I 
 might safely follow him, 
 
 I stated that I felt the doctrines of the Church of Eng- 
 land were not doubtful, but certain, as being found in the 
 infallible book — the Holy Scriptures — but that I could not 
 regard the doctrines of the Church of Rome in any other 
 light than both doubtful and uncertain — that such had 
 long been my impression. I thought this would lead him 
 to express himself more strongly. 
 
 He smiled at my words, and seemed pleased to have 
 drawn me into a subject on which he felt confident he 
 could overpower my arguments, and perhaps remove my 
 scruples. He said, that the doctrines of the Catholic 
 Church were founded on infallible truth, and were of course 
 infallibly certain — that they were based on infallibility ac- 
 cording to the promise of Christ to his Church^that they 
 were not dependent on every man's private judgment or 
 private interpretation, which led to innumerable doubts and 
 uncertainties — and therefore he asked me what I had to 
 say on that point. He appeared to be convinced of the un- 
 questionable certainty of the whole system of the Church 
 of Rome, and seemed with much confidence and animation 
 to challenge opposition. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 315 
 
 I said in return, that many persons in England took a 
 very different view of the subject — that they were men 
 thoughtful, astute, and able, who thought that what we 
 call common sense ought to be applied to everything, and 
 who asserted that all the professed certainty of the Roman 
 system had not a shadow to depend on, and was incompa- 
 rably less certain than the grounds of belief held in the 
 Church of England. - 
 
 My friend laughed heartily at my statement, and asked 
 me with a shew of confidence, to specify particulars. I was 
 fully conscious of the truth that lay at the bottom of my 
 position, but I had my fears that I might not be able to 
 develope my argument as it seemed to me to deserve. 
 Throughout these conversations I had the most unbounded 
 confidence in the truth and power of my own principles ; 
 but I felt the most overpowering sense at times of my in- 
 ability to state them as they deserved. An unseen power 
 had, however, sustained me hitherto, and though with 
 much timidity, I felt I ought not to distrust. 
 
 I said, with much carefulness, that it seemed to me 
 that there was extreme uncertainty as to every doctrine 
 of his Church. If it was the question of infallibility, there 
 was uncertainty as to whether it was to be sought in a 
 Council or in a Pope or in the Church generally. If it ■ 
 was the question of the immaculate ponception of the Vir- 
 gin Mary, it was a matter of dispute in his own Church. 
 If it was a question as to apostolic succession in the Priest- 
 hood, it was uncertain whether the officiating Bishops had 
 an intention to ordain. If it was a question as to Transub- 
 stantiation, there were so many hindrances and defects, that 
 r 2 
 
316 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 there was no subject in the world upon which, on their 
 own showing, there was so much occasion for uncertainty. 
 
 He laughed good-humouredly and with a look of triumph. 
 He seemed to feel I had not a shadow of pretence for my 
 statement, and he said with the boldest confidence of man- 
 ner that I was wrong — utterly wrong in supposing there 
 could be any failure in the process of Transubstantiation, 
 Whenever, he said emphatically, and with a look of surprise 
 that I should ever have thought otherwise — whenever a 
 priest pronounces the words, the effect is produced — the 
 Transubstantiation takes place. He expressed his surprise 
 I should have imagined otherwise. 
 
 I felt somewhat nettled by this. I did not like to be 
 treated like a child, — expected to believe without question 
 all that might be asserted, and I liked still less what seemed 
 to me on the instant an attempt to deceive me — to presume 
 on my ignorance and practise upon me. 
 
 I restrained myself, and said, that I ought to apologise 
 if I was wrong ; but that if it were an error, I had learned 
 it from the Missal. I reminded him, that he of course was 
 more intimate than I could pretend to be, with the Roman 
 Missal — especially with those parts which detail the de- 
 fects of consecration, — defects of which it is expressly 
 stated, that they invalidate or rather prevent the consecra- 
 tion and transubstantiation of the elements. 1 added, 
 that he knew there were, according to the Missal, certain 
 defects in the bread and in the wine, in thq dress of the 
 Priest, and even in the state of his mind and health, some 
 of which were stated to invalidate the consecration of the 
 elements, so as that there could be no sacrament, and there- 
 fore no transubstantiation, and no mass. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. SI 7 
 
 He again said, with the greatest confidence, that I was 
 altogether mistaken — that there was nothing of the kind 
 that I had stated, — and he expressed his surprise I should 
 be under such a mistaken impression. He spoke with a 
 confidence of manner that almost shook me, and after a 
 moment's reflection, I thought that if he was practising a 
 deception on me, presuming on my ignorance, he deserved 
 a fearless exposure, and that if he was really himself igno- 
 rant and deceived, he ought to be enlightened by a plain 
 statement of the truth. 
 
 I called his attention to the Missale Romanum. In its 
 rubrical and introductory parts it sets forth a series of de- 
 fects. Its very title is — De defectibus. In one place it sets 
 forth the defects of matter, — in another, the defects of 
 manner. In one- it states that no consecration takes place, 
 — in another it asserts that no transubstantiation is effected. 
 There is now a defect in the wine, -and now a defect in the 
 bread, and now again a defect in the Priest. And while 
 each, or all these defects are said to prevent the consecra- 
 tion from taking effect, — while they thus prevent any tran- 
 sabstantiation being effected, they yet are of such a nature 
 that the people, the worshippers know, and can know, no- 
 thing about them. And yet, I added, you let the people 
 fall down and adore that host which your Missal allows is 
 not consecrated. 
 
 He said that I was quite mistaken — that the moment 
 the Priest pronounced the words enim hoc est corpus meum, 
 the transubstantiation was effected, and that I ought not to 
 imagine anything else, — that I wjs certainly mistaken. All 
 Theologians were unanimous on the point. 
 
 I replied that it was not I, but the Roman Missal was 
 
318 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 mistaken in that case. I felt somewhat provoked at his 
 coolness and boldness, and I was resolved to bring him 
 down, so I called his attention to the Missal ; at the same 
 time taking care to express myself so as to avoid giving 
 offence. I said that we were well acquainted with the 
 Missal in England — that the clergy of England were 
 intimate with all these rubrical statements — that they 
 always argued from them that there was no certainty of 
 anything in the Church of Rome. I added, that perhaps 
 he was not aware of the precise nature of their argument 
 on this point, and I would therefore, with his permission, 
 endeavour to state it. 
 
 I then reminded him that in the Missal there was a de- 
 tail of those things which were " Defects occurring in the 
 celebration of the Mass." Such is the title under which 
 they are detailed. And those defects are detailed which 
 may be found in the bread and wine — some being found 
 in the form or manner of consecration — some being in the 
 absence of a right intention on the part of the minister, as 
 where he perhaps thinks there are only ten hosts, when 
 there are really eleven — some being connected with the 
 religious state of his soul, as to whether he is in mortal sin — 
 some being dependent on his bodily health [as in ix. 5.] — 
 in short, defects many and various, and yet if some of them 
 occur, the consecration, and transubstantiation, and sacri- 
 fice, do not take place ; " non conficitur sacramenturti'' is 
 the language of the Missal. Now the argument, I added, 
 so frequently used in England, is, that if the consecration, 
 and consequent transubstantiation and sacrifice, are de- 
 pendent on these things — if they are so dependent, as that 
 there is no sacrament, no transubstantiation, no mass. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 319 
 
 unless these particulars are strictly correct, then the people 
 can never be sure of anything — can never know vphether 
 the bread and vpine be rubrical, whether the priest has the 
 right intention, whether there be or be not one more host 
 than contemplated, whether he is in mortal sin, whether he 
 is fasting, and therefore the people can never know 
 whether there be a real consecration, whether there be a 
 real transubstantiation, or a real sacrifice, even on their 
 own principles. I added that this was a common argu- 
 ment in England, shewing that the sacrament was uncer- 
 taiu^-that therefore the transubstantiation was uncertain, 
 and consequently the worship and adoration of the host a 
 most dangerous thing — that the sacrifice of the mass was 
 uncertain, and therefore all the money expended on masses 
 for the dead, were uncertainly applied — in short, wherever 
 we turned we were met with uncertainties ; and the very 
 last Church in Christendom that ought to speak of the 
 uncertain nature of any Church, was the Church of Rome, 
 which was herself the most uncertain of all Churches. 
 
 My friend listened coolly and calmly to all this. I had 
 never observed him more collected, and he answered me by 
 stating explicitly that I was altogether under a mistake — 
 that all I had stated was a mistake — that whenever the 
 priest pronounced the words, " Hoc est enim corpus meum" 
 the change was effected— ^that there was no doubt what- 
 ever of the transubstantiation taking place — that this 
 was a point ruled universally among them, and then he 
 added, in the tone of a master, that he was surprised at 
 my thinking of such an objection. 
 
 1 replied that I had stated the argument commonly used 
 in England. I was bound to say that I felt they had very 
 
320 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 good ground for so arguing — that whether he could an- 
 swer the argument, remained to be seen — that they opened 
 the Missale Romanum, and read there these rubrical state- 
 ments as to the defects of matter, manner, and person, 
 which prevented the effects of consecration — that as all 
 this was patent at the very beginning of the Missal, it 
 could scarcely be expected that the clergy of England 
 would be satisfied with a bare denial of a matter which 
 they themselves could read and understand without the 
 least difficulty. I therefore asked him whether be could 
 kindly give me any explanation of these acknowledged de- 
 fects, and shew that everything was certain, where these 
 rubrics seemed to make them the most uncertain things 
 in the world. 
 
 He again merely expressed his surprise how I could 
 dwell on such an objection, as there was no ground what- 
 ever for my entertaining it. 
 
 I replied, by saying, I feared that I had not made my- 
 self understood. In the Roman Missal it is expressly 
 stated, that " Defects sometimes occur on the part of the 
 matter to be consecrated, — on the part of the form in which 
 it is done, and on the part of the officiating minister. 
 Whatever of these is defective, namely, the due matter, the 
 form with intention, and the sacerdotal order in the offici- 
 ating person, the sacrament is not celebrated — non confi- 
 citur sacramentum." If there be some defect in the kind 
 of bread, " non conficitur sacramentum," — if the wine have 
 some specified defect, "non conficitur sacramentum.'" If the 
 priest goes through all the form and appearance of conse- 
 crating, and yet does not intend to consecrate, that is, if 
 he has no intention, actual or virtual, then " in these cases 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 321 
 
 there is no consecration, because intention is requisite,"— 
 " in his casibus non consecrat, quia requiritur intentio." Here 
 is a series of defects of various kinds, and where they are 
 found, there is fao real sacrament.* There may be the 
 shew, the form, the appearance of sacraments, sacrifices, 
 masses and transubstantiation — there may be all this in 
 appearance, and yet no reality, owing to a defect of inten- 
 tion on the part of the priest, or some other defect of 
 which the worshippers and communicants neither know nor 
 can know anything. They may believe, but they never 
 can be certain, and this is the objection to the system, that 
 while it professes to be the most certain, it is really the 
 least certain of all. 
 
 He gave me no explanation of all this, but replied, as 
 before, that it was all a mistake — that whenever the Priest 
 pronounced the words of consecration, the change or tran- 
 substantiation was certainly effected. 
 
 I felt that I could make nothing of this line of argu- 
 ment, as he met me with only this one answer ; so I 
 said, that at all events it was very uncertain whether 
 Infallibility resided in a Council or a Pope, as there was 
 no decision on the subject, — that it was very uncertain 
 that the departed persons who were invoked as saints, were 
 really saints in glory, as there was no authority but the 
 Pope's having said so — that it was very uncertain that 
 they heard or could hear the prayers offered to them in all 
 parts of the world at the same time by so many votaries — 
 that it was very uncertain whether they had true orders 
 
 * " Si quis habcat coram se undecim hostias, et intendat consecrare 
 solum decern, non determiuans quas decern intendit, in his casibus non 
 consecrat, quia requiritur intentio." — VII.— Missal. 
 P 5 
 
322 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Etmong them, as intention was requisite in conferring 
 them, and none could answer for the secret intentions of 
 others, — in short, I said, so far as positive certainty is 
 concerned, the very last Church that ought to make 
 such a ground of exception against another, is the Church 
 of Rome. 
 
 He still said I was labouring under a great mistake. 
 There was no Church in the world more sure and certain 
 than the Catholic Church. It was founded on the Rock 
 of St. Peter by Christ himself. Infallibility and Perpetuity 
 were promised to it, and while other Churches rise to-day, 
 and fall to-morrow, this Catholic Church alone has survived 
 every shock of every wave of time. Among all the Churches 
 of the world she alone is certain. 
 
 I felt that there was no use on that occasion to attempt 
 a continuance of the argument. The conversation turned 
 for a moment to the supposed uncertainty of the Protestant 
 system of referring all thiogs to the Scriptures, and then 
 passed away to other topics, and soon ended. 
 
 The question as to the Protestant system of referring all 
 things to the Holy Scriptures is a question of the deepest 
 interest, and was not entered on at that conversation as it 
 deserved. It was only touched on incidentally, as one sub- 
 ject was giving way to another. But the real point of 
 this subtle yet most important of all questions, was the sub- 
 ject of a short but interesting conversation with the Pro- 
 fessor of Dogmatic Theology. I will transcribe here my 
 notes of what was said on both sides. 
 
 The Professor stated, that we often misunderstood the 
 rule of faith in the Church of Rome. It was not as was 
 supposed. Scripture and Tradition, but was simply the 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 323 
 
 revelation or word of God. That revelation or word of 
 God was transmitted to the Church, partly in the Scrip- 
 tures, and partly in Tradition. But, in the Anglican Church, 
 he added, the rule of faith was the Scriptures alone, and 
 not only that, but the Scriptures as interpreted by every 
 man's own reason, — in fact, by private interpretation. 
 
 I said, in reply, that he seemed to me to have quite mis- 
 taken the rule of faith in the Church of England. She did 
 not hold, or state in any of her Articles, that the Scriptures 
 alone were her rule of faith, but that " the Holy Scriptures 
 contain all things necessary to salvation." She does not deny 
 that there may be many things, many good things, many true 
 things, many profitable things, not contained in the Sacred 
 Volume ; but she holds that all such things, such extra - 
 scriptural things, are not necessary ta salvation. They may 
 be very good, and true, and profitable, but they are not 
 necessary to be believed in order to salvation. A man can 
 be saved without them. He will find enough for his salva- 
 tion in the Holy Scriptures, and we hold that nothing more 
 should be enforced on him as necessary to salvation. 
 
 My friend did not contradict this. On the other hand, 
 he acquiesced in my statement, but he said, that the great 
 evil of the Protestant system was, that it accorded to every 
 man the right to interpret Scripture for himself according 
 to liis own private judgment, telling them that that private 
 interpretation was to be their rule of faith. 
 
 I stated, in reply, that my friend was quite mistaken, — 
 that the Church of England gave no such opinion or judg- 
 ment. Our rule of faith, I said, in all things necessary to 
 salvation, was, the Holy Scriptures as interpreted by the Holy 
 Ghost- — not as interpreted by individuals themselves, but as 
 
324 MORNING'S AMONG 
 
 interpreted by the Holy Ghost. And she gives the Holy 
 Scriptures with an injunction to pray for the Holy Spirit. 
 " Blessed Lord, who hast caused all Holy Scriptures to he 
 written for our learning, grant that we may so hear them, 
 read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest them, that by pati- 
 . ence and comfort of thy holy word, we may be enabled to 
 embrace and ever hold fast the blessed hope of everlasting 
 life, which thou hast given us in thy Son our Saviour Jesus 
 Christ." Such, I said, is her language and her feeling. 
 Her rule of faith is, the Holy Scriptures as interpreted by 
 the Holy Spirit, — not, as he seemed to suppose, as inter- 
 preted by every individual. 
 
 He said, that he had always understood, that the great 
 principle of the Protestants was, the private or individual 
 interpretation of the Scriptures, and that consequently the 
 rule of faith of any individual, was the private interpreta- 
 tion of that individual. And that, therefore, the rules of 
 faith were as numerous and as yarying as the judgment of 
 the individuals. 
 
 I could not but smile at this, and I said, that the real 
 difference between the two Churches was this ; — 
 
 The Church of England holds, that the faithful man in 
 reading the Scriptures is to pray for the Holy Ghost for 
 light and teaching ; that, as his own natural sense and rea- 
 son cannot learn the mind of God, so he may have the 
 light and teaching of the Holy Ghost ; that is, the inter- 
 pretation of the Holy Ghost. 
 
 The Church of Rome holds, that the man is to look to 
 the Church for the right interpretation of the word, and 
 that by submitting to the teaching of the Church, he will 
 learn from her the interpretation of the Holy Ghost. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 325 
 
 And thus, I said, neither Church holds the private or 
 individual interpretation to be the rule of faith — but that 
 in every case it is the interpretation of the Holy Ghost. 
 The real diiference between them is, that the Romanist ex- 
 pects to learn it mediately through the Church, while the 
 Protestant looks for it directly, in answer to the prayer of 
 faith to the Holy Ghost. 
 
 My friend clearly saw this, and in a thoughtful way ex- 
 pressed his acquiescence in my statement. He repeated 
 my distinction, and said that I was right, for that the real 
 point of difference between the Churches was not on the 
 question of private interpretation, but whether the true in- 
 terpretation of the Word or Revelation of God was to be 
 expected mediately through the Church, or directly in an- 
 swer to the prayer of the faithful man. He said candidly 
 that this was the real point of difference, but he made no 
 objection whatever to the one, nor any argument in favour^ 
 of the other. He seemed to speak thoughtfully. 
 
 I therefore took occasion to say that this view cut away 
 and cast aside all the common arguments and objections to 
 the reading of the Scriptures — to the right of every Chris- 
 tian individually, to read and examine and endeavour to 
 understand and interpret the Scriptures. All this was put 
 aside, as neither the one Church nor the other claimed as a 
 rule of faith, anything but the word of God as interpreted 
 through the teaching of the Holy Ghost. I did not see 
 how he could object to our Protestant principle. We 
 claimed nothing for the individual but the promise of God, 
 that the Holy Ghost should enlighten and teach all sincere 
 believers. We tell the individual to seek in prayer the 
 teaching of the Holy Spirit, and to judge according to it. 
 
326 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 He was too clear-sighted not to perceive that his objec- 
 tions were set aside by this view of the subject. He inti- 
 mated that he thought it reasonable, but he said that a 
 Church ought, under such circumstances as Christians are 
 placed in, to provide for them such a system of interpre- 
 tation of Holy Scripture as might enable them, as with a 
 guide, to understand and interpret them aright. And that 
 as the Church of England had failed in this — as indeed she 
 had never attempted or pretended to supply such an inter- 
 pretation, she had undoubtedly failed in her manifest duty 
 towards her children, who were thus in danger of acting pn 
 their own interpretation. The Scriptures were given to 
 thetp, but no authorized interpretation was given with them. 
 
 I could not but reflect, on this, as on many other occa- 
 sions, how prone my friends at Eome were to urge, as 
 fatal, arguments against the Church of England, which 
 were as applicable, and often more applicable to the Church 
 of Rome. So I said that if the Church of England had 
 given no authorized interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, 
 neither had the Churclj of Rome done so. If it was an 
 omission in one, it was no less an omission ih the other. 
 The Church of Rome had never given any interpretation. 
 
 This retort led to some sallies of pleasantry, that pre- 
 vented our conversation becoming embittered by a spirit of 
 controversy, as we felt we could speak freely without giving 
 or taking offence. And I am bound in all Christian can- 
 dor to say that nothing could surpass the gentle and 
 courteous bearing of my friendly opponent. This argument, 
 however, did not proceed farther. My friend saw, and 
 could not fail to see that he could urge no objection to the 
 Church of England as touching the use and interpretation 
 of the Holy Scriptures, that was not fully as cogent against 
 
THE JESUITS AT EOMF. 327 
 
 the Church of Eorae. One Church fully coinmitted the 
 sacred volume to the hands of her members, reminding 
 them that they could profit by its perusal only by seeking 
 in earnest and faithful prayer the teaching of the Holy 
 Spirit ; while the other Church cautiously, and, as if sus- 
 ])iciously, discouraged the general study of the Holy 
 Scriptures, lest her members should be led to depend on 
 them and their teaching, and thus so far withdraw from 
 the teaching of the Church. 
 
 A suggestion was thrown out that the Scriptures ought 
 to be interpreted according to the interpretation of the 
 ancient Fathers, and that this would counteract the evils 
 of private judgment, and tend to keep men's minds with 
 the Church. 
 
 I replied by saying that the suggestion was one I had 
 frequently thought of, but that it appeared still more ob- 
 jectionable ; that is, liable still more to the very objection 
 made against the practice of Protestants. As far as I under- 
 stood the common objection, it was to the system of indivi- 
 duals exercising their private judgment on the sacredvolume. 
 Whereas this suggestion proposed the system of exercising 
 their private judgment on the writings of the Fathers who 
 wrote on the sacred volume. There was thus the very 
 same system of private judgment in both cases ; the only 
 difference being that the Protestant exercised his judgment 
 on the Scriptures directly, while the Romanist exercised 
 his judgment mediately through the ancient Fathers on the 
 same Scriptures. I thought men were safer in going at 
 once to the fountain-head. 
 
 The conversation ended with expressions of mutual good 
 feeling, which were as kindly expressed on both sides as 
 they were sincerely felt. 
 
328 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 CHAPTER XI. 
 
 THE ORIGIN OF THE CATACOMBS —THE CHRISTIANS USING THEM AS A 
 REFUGE — AS A PLACE OF WORSHIP — AS A BURIAL PLACE — FORGOTTEN 
 AND AFTERWARDS DISCOVERED — RESORTED TO FOR RELICS— A VISIT 
 FOR THE DISCOVERY OF RELICS— COLLECTION OF MONUMENTAL IN- 
 SCRIPTIONS FOUND IN THE CATACOMBS — THEIR CHARACTER AND 
 NATURE— A CONVERSATION IN THE COLLEGE OF THE JESUITS RE- 
 SPECTING THEM— CONCLUSION AS TO THE RELIGION OF THE PRIMI. 
 TIVE CHURCH. 
 
 DuKiNG a visit at the CoUegio Romano, a couversation 
 arose in reference to the Catacombs, and the argument to 
 be derived from their inscriptions. Some remarks respect- 
 ing the Catacombs will be necessary to render the conver- 
 sation intelligible. 
 
 The origin of the Catacombs was in the days of pagan 
 Rome, and long previous to the preaching of Christianity. 
 They seem now universally regarded as the mines or quar- 
 ries, from which the inhabitants .of Rome extracted those 
 vast supplies of that kind of earth or sand called puzzolana, 
 so generally used in their buildings. Quarrying in the 
 Campagna for this, they carried their shafts sometimes to a 
 considerable depth, and on striking on a vein they followed 
 
THE JESUITS AT EOME. 329 
 
 its windings, sometimes upwards, sometimes downwards, 
 now by long flights of steps, and then by winding galleries. 
 The branches from the main shafts or galleries extend in 
 every direction, frequently so winding as to intersect each 
 other, debouching by a great variety of openings on the 
 Campagna. These passages are narrow, ranging generally 
 from three to six feet in width, and from seven to ten in 
 height. They are very rude and rough and rugged, pre- 
 senting in themselves, apart from the associations which 
 give them so deep an interest, nothing whatever beyond 
 the shafts, galleries, or passages of any mine. They are 
 cold, damp and dark, and constitute a sort of gigantic 
 honeycomb-work, extending for miles in different direc- 
 tions underground ; and many a time the wanderer of the 
 Campagna — the desolate Campagna — comes suddenly upon 
 some deep hole — some dark hollow, which if explored will 
 be found to be one of the innumerable entrances to these 
 quarries, or at least one of those spots where the super- 
 incumbent soil has sunk in, and perhaps closed some 
 branch of the Catacombs for ever. Indeed this sudden 
 falling in of the earth after heavy rains, severe frosts, and 
 occasional tremblings of an earthquake, has been a source 
 of much danger. Tales are frequently narrated of scenes 
 too horrible to describe here, of- those who heedlessly and 
 without competent guides, have entered these subterranean 
 regions. The earth falling in has crashed or smothered 
 some, while it has debarred for ever all exit for others, 
 who have been left there to perish miserably. They who 
 thus sought the Catacombs as the grave-place of others, 
 found in them only a grave for themselves. 
 
 These quarries or mines of puzzolana had long ceased 
 
330 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 to be worked by the Romans. They seem to have been 
 exhausted, at all events they had been long closed as 
 mines, before those events of Christian history, which 
 were destined to shroud the Catacombs with an ineffaceable 
 interest and cl^rm. 
 
 It is unnecessary to notice the persecutions of the prim- 
 itive Church. The everlasting hatred — the frantic fury — 
 the deep malignity — the atrocious cruelty, so truly repre- 
 senting man as half-beast and half-fiend, that so charac- 
 terized these several persecutions, are matters of history 
 now familiar to all classes of Christians. They are alluded 
 to here only as the causes, which first operated in iavest- 
 ing the Catacombs with their special and peculiar interest. 
 It was in these Catacombs the Christians concealed them- 
 selves from the horrors of their persecutors. Some Chris- 
 tians, feeling themselves called on to stand as witnesses for 
 the truth, gave their testimony with faithfulness and fear- 
 lessness, and vrillingly and rejoicingly sealed their testi- 
 mony with their blood. They received the martyr's grave 
 and the martyr's crown. Others seem to have sought their 
 martyrdom — to have rushed madly to the tribunals, ac- 
 cused themselves and sought the crown of martyrdom as 
 they might seek the robe of marriage. It is not necessary 
 either to justify or impugn the motives of these persons, 
 who seem to have freely sought persecution rather than to 
 have been sought by it. But the immense body of the 
 faithful, feeling no such special vocation to martyrdom — 
 feeling confident that they would be enabled to stand faith- 
 ful if called on in the hour of need — rather fled before 
 their enemies and sought to retire from view, and hide them- 
 selves till the storm was overpast. They fled in vast num- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 381 
 
 bers and concealed themselves in the Catacombs. As the 
 profession of Christianity became a capital oifence, it be- 
 came necessary for all to fly for their lives — to fly from 
 home, kindred, property, all, and conceal themselves until 
 some change in the law or some mitigation in the persecu- 
 tion might give them some hope of escape. In the mean- 
 time family after family, as well as individual after indivi- 
 dual, fled from the city of Rome into the Campagna ; and 
 there entering the holes and shafts of the Catacombs, con- 
 cealed themselves in the dark recesses and winding pas- 
 sages and gloomy labyrinths of those exhausted and neg- 
 lected mines. We read of some of the saints of the Old 
 Testament, that " they wandered about in sheepskins and 
 goatskins, being destitute, afilicted, tormented, of whom 
 the world was not worthy ; they wandered in deserts and 
 in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth." And 
 these had their followers in the saints of the New Testa- 
 ment. They gathered in crowds into these dark caverns. 
 They flitted among them like spectres, startling and fright- 
 ening each other, as meeting suddenly in these graves of 
 the living ; now shrinking in terror as from an approaching 
 enemy, and now meeting with joyous thankfulness some 
 faithful friend. There must have been a powerful bond of 
 brotherhood created amidst scenes like these, by a con- 
 sciousness of common dangers and mutual dependence, and 
 by the fact that they all were the sufferers for the same 
 high and holy cause ; and were all knit together by the 
 strongest ties of Christian brotherhood ; and they lived to- 
 gether encouraging and comforting one another by that 
 with which they themselves were comforted of God, by the 
 enduring, ennobling hope of eternal life. 
 
332 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 This conversion of the Catacombs into places of refuge 
 and concealment for the miserable and persecuted Chris- 
 tians, led to their consecration to a yet higher and holier 
 purpose. It led naturally to their becoming the place for 
 Christian worship. It has been ever found in the experi- 
 ence of Christianity, that affliction and sorrow draw the 
 heart from the things of this present world ; and that times 
 like those to which we are now referring — times when no 
 man could call his life his own, draw men powerfully to 
 their knees, and lead to a more frequent, more earnest, 
 more fervent attendance and devotion to the worship of 
 God. Such times lead true and faithful men not only to 
 more devotion in private for personal comfort and strength, 
 but also to more united worship, for mutual encourage- 
 ment and support. Aceordiugly amidst the deep afflictions 
 and fearful sufferings of these victims of persecution, they 
 assembled together for the worship of God. They there 
 knelt and prayed and praised and read together. And 
 those long passages and dreary caverns resounded with 
 the words of prayer, and with the hymn of praise, and 
 with the reading of the word, and with the preaching of 
 the gospel, as these faithful and devout men, the children 
 of persecuted Christianity, and living martyrs to the faith 
 of Jesus, poured out their souls in prayer and praise. 
 There they excavated little recesses and called them 
 churches, where they could assemble in larger numbers 
 for the common worship of God, and the communion of 
 the, Lord's Supper. And there many a hardened heart 
 was melted into love, and many a broken spirit was healed 
 by the balm of Gilead, and many an afflicted soul was 
 comforted of God. There must have been an inexpres- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 333 
 
 sible charm in the words of Holy Scripture under such 
 touching circumstances, and there must have been a mar- 
 vellous power in the gospel preached faithfully in such 
 strange scenes and stranger times. Nor was this all. Even 
 when persecution relaxed in violence, and Christians were 
 not necessarily exposed to death for their profession ; and 
 when therefore they were enabled to steal forth from these 
 dark caves and return to home and relatives, still there 
 was no relaxation of violence against anything approaching 
 to a public celebration of Christian worship. It was neces- 
 sary therefore to conduct it with the strictest secrecy — a 
 secrecy so strict as to be unknown to all but those whose 
 faithfulness could be entirely depended on ; and it was 
 thence invested intentionally with a veil of mystery, so as 
 to ensure its being kept secret from the uninitiated. This 
 secrecy became the more necessary, when discovery would 
 have been the certain martyrdom of the most zealous and 
 devoted of the ministry of the Church. All this led to 
 the worship of the Christians being secretly and mysteri- 
 ously celebrated in the Catacombs. And those Christians 
 who, living in the upper world, breathing the air and en- 
 joying the light of heaven, yet loved to join in the common 
 service, and in the holy communion, were obliged to resort 
 in the silent hours of night to those holes in the Campagna, 
 which led through many a long and winding intricacy, to 
 the secret recesses where they could enjoy the ministrations 
 of the Church, 
 
 And further still, these dark and dreary scenes were 
 destined to become a yet higher source of interest. The 
 Christians who fled there and found safety there, were not 
 unmindful of their brethren, who in the upper world were 
 
334 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 called to the trials of martyrdom ; who not escaping as 
 others, or perhaps arrested in the moment of escaping, 
 were doomed to the sword, or to the scaffold, or to the 
 wild beasts of the Coliseum. They used to steal from 
 their hiding-places by night, and bear away the mangled 
 bodies and scattered bones of these martyred men, and 
 bringing them among their brethren, thank God for the 
 faithfulness of their testimony, pray to God to be enabled 
 to follow the example of patience and faith, and then bury 
 them in the recesses of the Catacombs. The Catacombs 
 thus became the graves of the martyrs. Too soon and too 
 often, alas, they became the scenes of martyrdom. On 
 some occasions when the fury of persecution raged with 
 more than ordinary malignancy, the persecutors would 
 enter the Catacombs and slay the unhappy Christians even 
 in their hiding-places ; and though in the intricacy of these 
 deep recesses, the unhappy ones were able easily to stop the 
 passages and remain only in those places where none but 
 those well acquainted with the place cpuld possibly trace 
 them, yet at times they were treacherously betrayed and 
 surprised, so as that the Catacombs became not only the 
 graves of martyrs but the scenes of martyrdom ; and be- 
 sides this, the Christians usually buried their dead in 
 these places. The pagan Romans, at least of the higher 
 and wealthier classes, usually burned their dead, and de- 
 posited the ashes in small cinerary urns or vessels. The 
 Christian Romans on the other hand, seem invariably to 
 have adopted the practice of burying their dead, perhaps 
 from the Jewish custom or from the prevalent opinion that 
 the end of the world was at hand, and that their bodies 
 would soon arise again for immortality. At all events. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 335 
 
 ■whatever was the motive, the practice was universal. They 
 made no burial-places above ground, but taking the relics 
 of the dead into the recesses of the Catacombs, where so 
 many of the slaves and poorer classes of the heathens were 
 buried, they there deposited their brethren. They cut a 
 cavity in the side-wall, so to speak, of the passage or 
 gallery, sufficiently large to contain the body, and there 
 they laid it. The system continued for years, even for 
 centuries ; and as the number of Christians multiplied at 
 Rome, so the number of burials multiplied in proportion ; 
 till all through the Catacombs, the walls of the passages 
 and galleries on both sides were full of these graves, arranged 
 sometimes two and three deep, so that the stranger now 
 walking through the Catacombs is walking through long 
 galleries of the dead, sleeping on either hand in numbers 
 beyond counting. There lie buried the mangled forms of 
 the most faithful of martyrs, men who counted not their 
 lives dear to themselves — ;there lie buried the bones of 
 many an afflicted and persecuted saint, who lived and died 
 in the hope of glory — -there rest the mortal remains of 
 many a faithful Christian, whose life adorned the gospel 
 he professed, and Commended it to the admiration of all 
 men ; and there lie the mouldering bodies of ten thousand 
 times ten thousand of those men, who have professed the 
 name of Christian, but whose hearts are known only to 
 Him, who shall reveal all secrets at the judgment-day. 
 
 Such is the interest associated with the Catacombs. It 
 is purely the interest of association, as in themselves they 
 possess nothing of attraction even to the curious. But 
 associated as they are with the persecutions of the primi- 
 tive church, consecrated by being the place where the 
 
336 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 sacred services were celebrated, and hallowed as the rest- 
 ing-place of so many Confessors, they possess an enduring 
 charm to the Christian. 
 
 And. yet it seems strange that they should have been 
 so long neglected and forgotten. It is certain that soon 
 after Christianity had triumphed over Paganism, and had 
 become the established religion of the empire, the Cata- 
 combs ceased to be resorted to as the sacred and cherisheli 
 burial-place of the Christian dead. They were closed. 
 From being unused, they soon became neglected ; and from 
 being neglected, they soon became forgotten. It is a re- 
 markable fact, that for many centuries the memory of the 
 Catacombs was forgotten, - and even their existence totally 
 unknown. For ages all tradition of their uses — ^their 
 sacrednesS' — their mouldering contents — and even of their 
 very existence, was utterly lost. In the city of Rome, 
 with all its crowding memories, this was lost. In the 
 Church of Rome with all its supposed congeniality with 
 antiquity^ — with all its boasted veneration and devotion to 
 the ancient-r--with all its priests and its monks, its convents 
 and its monasteries — in the Church of Rome, all memory 
 of the Catacombs, as the refuge of the persecuted Christian 
 — as the place of the services of the persecuted Church 
 — as the burial-place of the martyrs and the saints of 
 Christ, was as thoroughly lost and as perfectly a forgotten 
 and neglected thing, as in the Mosques of Mecca. It was 
 not till the sixteenth century, that the evidence of their 
 existence and their uses called attention to them ; and the 
 interest and importance of the subject were forced upon the 
 lazy and slumbering inmates of the innumerable convents 
 of Rome. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 337 
 
 And even then they were destined to he desecrated hy a 
 use that could scarcely have been anticipated. They were 
 invaded by innumerable bands of monks and friars, col- 
 lecting from their graves the bones of the long-buried dead ; 
 — disturbing the mouldering relics of mortality — dragging 
 them into the upper world — hawking them from city to 
 city, and from country to country ; and driving a disgust- 
 ing traffic in them under the name of relics. Every grave 
 was rifled, every skeleton was rent asunder, every bone was 
 pounded in order to jnultiply splinters ; and when once 
 the grave of some martyr or saint was said to be discovered, 
 the head was severed and sent to one country, and the leg 
 was severed and sent to another ; an arm was forwarded to 
 one land and a thigh to another, a tooth was extracted 
 from the skull and sent to some convent, and a rib severed 
 from the back sent to some monastery. And at the same 
 time a traffic of the most disgraceful and revolting nature 
 was driven in all these, as lawful articles of ecclesiastical 
 merchandize. The demand for such articles was so great, 
 in the superstition and ignorance of the times, and the 
 miraculous properties of such relics were so extravagantly 
 extolled, as of incalculable advantage to the temporal and 
 spiritual interest of the possessors, that the demand of the 
 market soon called forth an adequate supply ; and such 
 was the unscrupulousness of the authorities at Rome, and 
 so utterly profligate the monks who were the merchants in 
 this matter, that they not unfrequently sold several different 
 skulls as the only true skull of some particular martyr, and 
 several different arms as the veritable arms of some favorite 
 saint, so that even at the present day, some saints have 
 several different heads and arms in different places. Some- 
 
 Q 
 
338 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 times the traveller in Italy discovers some martyr who has 
 had two or three heads, and some saint who has had four 
 or five arms, and perhaps a still greater superfluity of legs. 
 The enormous amount of wealth which this traffic brought 
 into Rome is incalculable. The Catacombs are a mine of 
 bones, and have proved incomparably more precious than 
 if they had been a mine of silver. 
 
 But disgusting and sickening as was all this, as an inde- 
 cency and an outrage upon the dead, and revolting as it 
 was to every gentle and Christian feeling, it yet could not 
 alter the facts of past history, nor strip the Catacombs of 
 their touching interest and real importance to the student 
 of Christian history. There the Catacombs remained, 
 there the graves of the Christians remained, there the 
 ' monuments of the dead remained ; and while these re- 
 mained it might be hoped that they would supply some 
 evidences — some items of primitive customs and primitive 
 opinions, that might sei-ve to illustrate the opinions and 
 the practices of primitive Christianity. 
 
 The best mode of visiting these scenes, at least those 
 Catacombs most generally, because most easily, visited and 
 explored, is by entering them through the church of the 
 convent of St. Sebastian. It is narrated in the legend of 
 that saint, that he was a young and handsome soldier — 
 that for the crime of believing in Christianity, he was 
 bound to a tree as a target for the arrows of his comrades 
 — that having been shot through every limb till he bristled 
 with arrows, a human porcupine, he yet survived by a 
 miracle — that he again accused himself before the tribu- 
 nals, and was dispatched by decapitation. This, or some- 
 thing of this kind, is the legend of St. Sebastian, one of 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 339 
 
 the most favored and popular of the saints at Rome ; not 
 so much from anything extraordinary in the saint himself, 
 as from his being so useful and fine a subject for the pen- 
 cils of the artists. The fine and youthful figure — the 
 fleshiness and nakedness — the grace of the position, and 
 the expression of the face, all supply a noble subject for 
 the artist ; and the multiplication of the pictures creates a 
 multiplication of votaries. It is said by the monks of the 
 convent of St. Sebastian, that their Church or Chapel is 
 built over that part of the Catacombs where the body of 
 the saint was buried. This is by no means improbable ; 
 at all events there is an entrance — and it is by far the best 
 and most convenient — into the Catacombs through the 
 Church of the convent. 
 
 The monk who acted as guide or cicerone, on our visit 
 to these interesting scenes, was selected for his ofiice with 
 admirable judgflient, and as admirable taste. He looked 
 Uke a moving plague — a personification of the malaria — a 
 walking pestilence. There he was — an attenuated thing, a 
 living skeleton, with his brown cloak around him to con- 
 ceal the bones from view ; you might fancy you could 
 almost see the light of the candles shining through his 
 ribs ; and vrithal he looked a meek and subdued man, one 
 who spoke with vivacity — indeed with enthusiasm, though 
 his voice was toned with a sad and melancholy cadence. 
 He was very calm, thoughtful and silent, if left to himself, 
 but exceedingly animated and communicative when ques- 
 tioned. He spoke in raptures of the subterranean Chapel, 
 and gave all real and needful information, as well as a good 
 deal that was unreal, respecting the Catacombs, that the 
 general visitor could require. He supplied each of our 
 Q2 
 
340 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 party with a lighted candle. He led the way himself with 
 steps slow and solemn, and as stealthily as if he feared to 
 disturb the slumbers, of the dead. On he moved, or rather 
 glided, through those dark passages and damp galleries, 
 looking for all the world like a ghost ; and but 'for the 
 color of his brown monkish dress, with his thin, haggard, 
 attenuated look ; and at the same time his earnest and 
 impressive manner, he might well have passed for one of 
 the ancient inhabitants of the Catacombs called again to 
 life. He would stop at times, and carefully explain aU the 
 details of some grave more remarkable than the rest, and 
 at other times he would pause, hold his candle in one hand, 
 and mysteriously point with his other bony hand to some 
 spot or object — look unutterably mysterious, and then drop 
 his eyes to the ground and pass on without another word. 
 And then, when all was over, he looked so poor and sad — 
 so miserable and meek , and stood so modestly looking^ for 
 the gratuity usually given on those occasions, with an ex- 
 pression that seemed designed to move the visitor to more 
 than ordinary liberality ; that there really was no resisting 
 the incomparable acting of his silent begging. Poor man ! 
 He earns hardly the money he receives. 
 
 The graves of the Catacombs are excavated on both 
 sides of these passages. They are excavated in the soil or 
 tufo, which forms the sides of the passages, and therefore 
 can be examined with the greatest possible facility. They 
 are often smaller — much smaller than might be expected, 
 indeed so very small sometimes, as to raise the question as 
 to the manner in which the bodies of the dead could have 
 found room in them. 
 
 That these graves, at least for the greater portion, were 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 341 
 
 the graves of Christians, is very generally believed. The 
 grounds of that belief are not so certain as might be desi- 
 rable. It was certainly the custom of the Pagan Romans 
 to burn their dead. But this was true generally and not 
 universally ; for it was customary to bury the slaves and the 
 poorer classes ; and there is not a shadow of doubt as to 
 the Catacombs having been frequently used as the burial- 
 place of those classes of the heathen population, long before 
 their being made the refuge of the persecuted Christians. 
 And besides this, there is every probability that the diris- 
 tians often buried the bodies of their heathen relatives, 
 among those of other Christian members of the same family. 
 The bones of many who had continued in heathenism, 
 were laid in affectionate remembrance beside those of others, 
 near and loved, who had embraced Christianity. And thus 
 heathen and Christian sleep side by side, in the last and 
 common resting-place of humanity. 
 
 This fact has been placed beyond a shadow of doubt, 
 by the number of monumental inscriptions which are cer- 
 tainly heathen, found in the Catacombs. Nor is it a suffi- 
 cient answer to this, to suggest that possibly they may have 
 taken the monumental tablets of heathens, and employed 
 them to cover the graves of Christians, as this would only 
 prove that there were the tombs of heathens close at hand ; 
 indeed this seems very certain, for some stones have hea- 
 then inscriptions on one side, and Christian inscriptions on 
 the other, shewing that they had taken a heathen stone, 
 and reversing it, placed it on a Christian grave, and then 
 wrote a suitable inscription. 
 
 It was almost universal among the Pagan Romans, to 
 place over the monumental inscription the words " Divis 
 
342 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Manihus" which they sometimes contracted to the two first 
 letters, "D. M." — the allusion being to the gods presiding 
 over the place of the dead. This and other allusions to 
 their gods, occur frequently on the monumental tablets of 
 . the Catacombs, thus demonstrating the fact of the burial 
 of heathens in those places. 
 
 The non-observance of this has led to some ludicrous 
 mistakes, even to the enrolling some heathens in the roll - 
 of saints, and the worship of the bones of heathens as the 
 relics of saints. The following is a well-known instance of 
 this. 
 
 D. M. 
 Julia Evodia filia fecit castse matri. 
 
 This is a heathen inscription. The tablet is dedicated 
 to the Manes, " Divis Manihus," and is similar to thou- 
 sands of others found on the graves and urns of heathens. 
 It is a memento which Julia Evodia, a daughter, raised to 
 her mother. And without ever considering that the lady 
 was a heathen, the monks have disposed of her bones as 
 the relics of a saint and martyr ; and not observing that it 
 was the grave of the mother, whose name is not given, they 
 have christened the bones by the name of the daughter, 
 as the relics of Saint Julia Evodia, the said Julia being the 
 person who had erected the tablet ! 
 
 This is a well-known and amusing instance of the mis- 
 takes into which either their ignorance or their avarice 
 seduced the clergy of Rome in former days. They now 
 indeed exhibit some ingenuity in suggesting that this 
 D. M. of the heathen monuments may possibly have been 
 adopted among some Christians, to express Deo Maximo, 
 or perhaps Divus Martyr, and thus endeavour to Chris- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 343 
 
 tianize all those monuments of the heathens found in the 
 Catacomhs ! The enlightened and candid among them 
 laugh at the whole afPair as much as ourselves ; and this 
 they can do the more easily, as all that could have been 
 gained by the mistakes or deceptions of the old monks, 
 has long since been accomplished. 
 
 On asking our emaciated and ghastly guide for the signs 
 by which he could ascertain the grave of a Christian from 
 that of a heathen, he replied by pointing to little crosses 
 scratched on the wall beside or above the graves. He pro- 
 nounced these to be the signs of the Christian faith of the 
 departed dead. This seemed reasonable, but it occurred 
 at the moment that, as these Catacombs were in the pos- 
 session of these monks for some centuries, so they could 
 scratch these crosses over any number of graves that might 
 seem desirable. It was clear they could never be detected, 
 and the character of monks has never been such, as to 
 secure them from all suspicion of " pious frauds." This 
 appeared still more probable, when, having lingered a little 
 behind our party, in order to examine some grave more 
 accurately, I observed a gentleman occupying himself in the 
 mean time, in making these crosses with the iron end of 
 his walking-stick ? We agreed that there was no appear- 
 ance of difference between these and the other crosses ; and 
 so our young friend amused himself with making a few 
 more, and when we left the Catacombs he congratulated 
 himself on having made half a dozen saints or Christians 
 at least during his visit ! 
 
 I was particularly anxious to learn the means, by which 
 the monks were able to ascertain the bones of a saint— the 
 bones of a martyr — from the bones of any ordinary Chris- 
 
344 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 tian. As the Catacombs were the great treasure-house of 
 relics, I wished to learn the tests or signs by which those 
 bones, which were to be venerated as relics of saints, were 
 to be discerned from the bones of others. While residing 
 far away in the distant scenes of England, a man is com- 
 pelled to rest satisfied with what information he can gather 
 from books on such subjects ; and there is scarcely a strong 
 statement that can be made by one party, that is not imme- 
 diately contradicted by the other ; so that the mind of an 
 enquirer is held in suspense, amidst the hardihood of asser- 
 tion generated by the odium theologicum, — that compound 
 of the gall and vinegar of Calvary. But I have sometimes 
 thought that there would be a satisfaction in making the 
 enquiry and receiving the answer on the spot. I resolved 
 therefore to ask the question, amidst the dark vaults, and 
 dreary graves of the Catacombs, and to obtain my answer 
 amidst the fleshless skeletons and long-silent bones of the 
 primitive Christians. 
 
 The poor attenuated skeleton of a monk, who seemed 
 to me as pious as he was poor, and as sincere as he was 
 attenuated, stated that one sign was a red mark, which 
 was sometimes observed beside a grave. This, he said, 
 was the blood of the martyr, which was thus sprinkled on 
 this spot, in order to remain as a sign of martyrdom. 
 Another sign was a small bottle, which was found in many 
 graves, but not in all. This bottle was found to contain 
 some deposit of a reddish hue, which it had been inferred 
 was blood — the blood of the person there buried, and who 
 therefore must have died the death of a martyr. It at 
 once suggested itself, that it was an easy matter for the 
 monks to multiply the number of these things, whenever 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 345 
 
 they were in need of a new supply of relics for the market, 
 as they had only to place a red mark upon any grave, or 
 deposit one of these httle bottles of terra cotta beside it. 
 I felt that at least I could have no great dependence on 
 them, even supposing the signs to be real and not fictitious ; 
 for there is no authority — no ground whatever — not the 
 shadow of authority or ground for supposing, that either 
 the red spot or the bottle are signs of martyrdom or saint- 
 ship, any more than of that Christianity which holds salva- 
 tion by the blood of the cross. If they are signs of any- 
 thing in particular, they seem rather the sign of men who 
 died depending on the blood of Christ ; and whose surviving 
 friends gave to their graves that sign of their faith. The 
 truth is, no dependence whatever can be placed on these 
 signs ; and I afterwards found that they were laughed at 
 by the more learned clergy of Rome. 
 
 Our interesting but most credulous guide, seemed fully 
 to believe what he was stating, ; and when I enquired as to 
 ■ the signs or tests of a saint — the means by which the bones 
 of a saint — not a martyr, but a saint — might be discerned 
 from those of ordinary Christians, he replied with the most 
 perfect simplicity, that when they were first discovered 
 they emitted a sweet odour — a delicious fragrance that ra- 
 vished the senses ; and as this certainly was not the ordi- 
 nary property of dead men's bones, it seemed to argue — 
 if true — something most marvellous and saintly. But this 
 ■was not all. When these bones were brought forth into 
 the upper world, they wrought the most wonderful mira- 
 cles, the sick were healed, the dead were raised, the here- 
 tics were converted at the touch or'sight of these bones, 
 thus demonstrated to be the relics of some saint. There 
 Q 5 
 
346 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 is one instance on record. It was the case of a skull' 
 a fleshless, eyeless, tongueless, noseless skull. It was 
 questioned, after certain exorcisms, as to the rightful 
 owner, and it answered its name, its residence, and told the 
 circumstances under which its owner was decapitated, 
 dying a martyr's death ! What other persons may think 
 of such maryellous doings — such exquisite perfumes from 
 bones, and such interesting colloquies with skulls — it is not 
 for me to say or determine. The popr monk, who guided 
 us through these dreary Catacombs, seemed religiously to 
 believe them, and he was not singular in doing so. The 
 enlightened portion of the ecclesiastical body, however, are 
 quite as unbelieving as Protestants on these particulars' 
 
 It is not possible that a source of evidence, so calcu- 
 lated to illustrate and prove the character of primitive 
 Christianity, as the inscriptions in the Catacombs, should 
 fail to attract universal attention. It was fortunate for me 
 that I had paid much and close attention to the great mass 
 of such inscriptions, collected from the Catacombs, and 
 deposited with admirable arrangement in the Vatican, as 
 otherwise I should have been taken by surprise, and have 
 been wholly unable to deal with the arguments of my 
 friends the Jesuits, derived from those inscriptions. I was 
 one day in the CoUegio Romano, in company with the 
 Librarian, the Professor of Antiquities, or Archseology, the 
 professor of Dogmatic Theology, and the professor of Canon 
 Law, and some others of the priesthood. These learned 
 and courteous and agreeable persons were members of the 
 order of Jesuits, and were an ornament to any society with 
 which they were connected ; and they were not likely, when 
 shewing to me some tablets taken from the Catacombs, and 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 347 
 
 selected on account of their inscriptions, and deposited in 
 the Collegio Romano, to omit the fair opportunity which 
 they offered, of impressing me with the value of those in- 
 scriptions as evidences of the ancient faith and practice of 
 the Church of Rome. 
 
 I stated frankly that I had spent some time in the Cata- 
 combs, and that I had no great faith in the conclusions 
 which some of my kind friends of Rome habitually deduced 
 from them. 
 
 They asked me, what were the conclusions to which I 
 referred, and why I should doubt what seemed so evident 
 to them. 
 
 I replied, that " the Congregation of Relics" once came 
 to a decision, as to the relics found in the Catacombs : — 
 and that decision was to the effect, that the appearance of 
 a palm-branch graven on a tomb-stone, and the appearance 
 of a vessel tinged with blood, were to be received as sure 
 and certain signs of a martyr's grave. Such was their 
 decision. But since that decision was recorded, much 
 more has been hrought to light, which has proved the 
 erroneous character of that conclusion of the Congregation. 
 For example. Some of those vessels, supposed thus to 
 have been vessels of martyr's blood, have been found on 
 careful examination to be of a form and make long subse- 
 quent to the age of persecution ; and to exhibit signs painted 
 or graven upon them, which could not have been so graven 
 or painted till after the times of martyrdom, inasmuch as 
 they were not invented till years long subsequent. And 
 again, in Reference to the palm-branch, it has been clearly 
 ascertained that the graving of a sprig or branch, which 
 they call a palm, is frequently found on the graves of those 
 
348 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 who were undoubted heathens ; and also on the graves of 
 infants too young for martyrdom, and also on graves of a 
 period subsequent to the age of martyrdom. The decision 
 therefore of the congregation of relics, has been altogether 
 rejected of late years, even among all the learned of the 
 Roman Church. I added, that the decision of the con- 
 gregation was well enough for the few items of knowledge 
 then in their possession ; but inasmuch as their confident . 
 decision is now universally exploded, it had shaken all con- 
 fidence on my part, in the peremptory statements so frer 
 quently made at Rome, in reference to the inscriptions 
 found in the Catacombs. I felt constrained to examine and 
 judge for myself. 
 
 I perceived that this remark on my part had its effect — 
 the efie^ct which I desired — in lowering the tone of confi- 
 dent assertion and bold statement, which my friends had 
 been exhibiting while we were looking over the library. 
 They at once stated, however, that they were not referring 
 to the decisions of the congregation of relics, respecting the 
 graves of martyrs as distinct from the graves of other 
 saints ; but to the inscriptions and figures graven upon the 
 tablets, as indicative of the fact that certain religious prac- 
 tices, against which Protestants objected in the Church of 
 Rome, and which were made a ground of protestation and 
 separation, were religious practices prevalent among those 
 who were the saints and martyrs of the primitive Church. 
 On my asking to what religious practices they especially 
 alluded, one of my friends replied, by referring to the prac- 
 tice of invocation of saints — of praying to the saints, adding 
 that there was no doubt as to the existence of the practice, 
 as it was evidenced in the inscriptions. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 349 
 
 I asked — to what inscription, and what words, he alluded, 
 as I had observed nothing of the kind. 
 
 He replied, by boldly stating that some of the tablets 
 were inscribed with the " orate pro nobis," or rather, cor- 
 recting himself, " ora pro nobis." 
 
 I said that I had seen nothing of the kind — that I had 
 carefully examined the great collection of inscribed tablets 
 deposited in the Vatican — that some of them, indeed the 
 larger portion, had no evidence or trace of Christianity, 
 beyond a cross or some anagram or emblem of Christ ; as 
 the ship or the fish, or the Greek letter X, or the A, and fi, 
 or some other of the various symbols of the Christian faith ; 
 — that some commenced with the solitary word " Pax " — 
 some concluded with the words " in pace" or " in Christo, " 
 implying that the person either lived or died in peace or in 
 Christ, in the peace of God or in the faith of Christ ; — that 
 I had observed many inscriptions stating that the person 
 lived in peace,' " vixit in pace," and only one vivas in pace, 
 expressive of the sigh or wish of the survivor, that the 
 person might live in peace ; and a very few others of the 
 same import. And that in the large variety of inscriptions 
 which I had had an opportunity of examining, I had never 
 seen or heard of more than one with either ora or orate pro 
 nobis. ' 
 
 My friend replied, that there was no doubt of the fact 
 that there were such inscriptions, and that they actually 
 possessed one in the college, and that he had seen the in- 
 scription, so that there could be no question as to the 
 prevalence of the practice of saying the orate pro nobis — 
 praying to the saints to pray for us. 
 
 I reminded him, that there were collected about two 
 
350 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 thousand inscriptions — that these were taken chiefly from 
 the monumental tablets of the Catacombs — that they were 
 cited as the representatives of the opinions of the primitive 
 Christians — and that all he was enabled to say was, that 
 among these two thousand he had seen one with this in^ 
 scription ! I then added, that considering the heathens 
 of Rome prayed to their departed heroes, it was no more 
 than natural that some few of these, on embracing Chris- 
 tianity, more in profession than in reality, might ignorantly 
 continue the practice, and pray to some departed saint ; and 
 that such an exception could prove nothing in favor of the 
 practice — that so isolated an instance as one inscription 
 could only serve, like an exception, to prove the rule ; and 
 - the real wonder was, that more could not be found ; and the 
 fact that more were not found among the thousands col- 
 lected, proved powerfully that it was not the practice of 
 the primitive Christians to inscribe the ora -pro nobis on 
 their tombs. The inference was that they did not pray to 
 the saints. 
 
 He answered this by saying, that I must at least acknow- 
 ledge, that the inscription implied that the saints in heaven 
 prayed for us — that after they died they did not lose their 
 holy sympathies for us, nor their love of prayer for those 
 whom they loved in life, and whom they left behind them 
 in this vale of tears ; and that if they thus prayed for us, 
 it could not be wrong for us to ask their prayers, now that 
 they are in heaven, as we had often asked them while they 
 were yet upon earth. 
 
 I replied, that even his own interpretation of the inscrip- 
 tion, implied rather that the saints in heaven prayed /o^ 
 the saints on earth — that they prayed for us — and that I 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 361 
 
 felt that there was a wide difference between our supposing 
 that they prayed /or us, and our praying to them. I believed 
 that it was a very early opinion among Christians, that the 
 departed Christians or saints were in the presence of God, 
 and prayed to God for them ; but I felt this was widely 
 different from our praying to them — offering those prayers 
 to them, which should be offered only to God. 
 
 He expressed himself greatly pleased at my acknow- 
 ledgment of such opinions as being prevalent very early in 
 the Church ; and he spoke as if he thought there was little 
 or no difference between their praying for us, and our pray- 
 ing to them ; and then went on to say that there was a 
 marked distinction to be observed in the inscriptions on 
 the monuments of the Catacombs. One class, he stated, 
 contained such expressions as requiescat in pace — may he 
 rest in peace — may he be refreshed, may he be comforted ; 
 — all this class are the monuments of Christian persons 
 generally, and these inscriptions are prayers for the dead. 
 The other class are the monuments of martyrs, who pass 
 at once into the beatific vision of God, and who therefore 
 do not need those prayers for thejr peace, refreshment or 
 comfort. Therefore those prayers are omitted ; and this 
 was the real cause of there being so many monuments with- 
 out prayers. It was because there were so many martyrs. 
 
 I said that I could not assent to his ideas of either class 
 — that the fact of there being no prayers for the dead, or 
 to the dead, inscribed on the monuments, was to me an 
 evidence that the Christians of those days neither prayed 
 for the dead nor to the dead ; and that this was a much 
 easier way of accounting for the omission, than supposing 
 that all these were the monuments of martyrs, a supposition 
 
352 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 for which, as far I could judge, there was not the faintest 
 foundation. And as for the statement that the words re- 
 quiescat in pace, and such similar expressions, were inscribed 
 on the tablets, I could only say I had never seen such 
 among all I had examined, that is, among all the collection 
 in the Vatican, a collection larger than all other collections 
 in the world combined. Such an instance might be there. 
 I heard there was, but I saw nothing like it ; on one tablet 
 indeed I had seen the natural and loving ejaculation vivas 
 in pace, may you have peace ! and this appeared to me no 
 more than a wish expressed for the dead, rather than a 
 prayer addressed to God. I added that I could only speak 
 of what I had myself seen. It was possible he might have 
 had larger and better opportunities of informing himself, 
 and that he had probably examined them more closely ; 
 but that I apprehended there might be some mistake on 
 his part, and I would therefore feel obliged by his shewing 
 me some inscription of the kind. 
 
 The reply to this was, conducting me to several tablets, 
 and pointing to one on which was rudely engraved or 
 scratched, the figure of a man in a kneeling posture. 
 
 My friend pointing to this, and observing that I was 
 silent and could make nothing of it, said that there was a 
 kind of monumental language well known and understood 
 — that it was derived from a comparison of a large number 
 of inscriptions — that when a tablet was found without a 
 prayer for the dead, it was to be regarded as the tablet of a 
 martyr ! and that as martyrs go at once into the vision of 
 God, they do not need any prayers, and therefore no prayers 
 are inscribed on their tablets ; that instead of such prayers 
 there was some emblem, as a representation of a person 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 353 
 
 standing in the attitude of prayer, or as the figure of a 
 kneeling man, that is, the figure of a man praying to the 
 martyred dead ; and thus embodying not indeed the words 
 but the idea of the ora pro nobis. He said that this was a 
 matter very well known and understood, by those who were 
 acquainted with the language of the monumental in- 
 scriptions. 
 
 I could not but smile at this statement. I had seen so 
 many of these monuments without anything that could 
 imply a prayer for the dead, that I had concluded from 
 thence that the primitive Christians did not cherish such a 
 practice as praying for the dead, in the age of the Cata- 
 combs. But my friend of the order of Jesuits, assigned 
 as the reason for so marked an omission, that all such 
 monuments are those of the martyrs, who were in no need 
 of such prayers ! Thus variously do different minds look 
 upon the same things. 
 
 I remarked in a doubting tone, that my friend seemed 
 to regard the kneeling or praying figure as the representa- 
 tion, not of the martyr, but of some living friend. 
 
 He said that the monumental language demanded this. 
 A martyr could not require prayer, and therefore the 
 figure could not represent the martyr himself — that it must 
 therefore represent some one else, perhaps his friend, or 
 relative, or follower, who erected the tablet, and who en- 
 graved his own representation on the tablet, to shew him- 
 self in the act of praying to the departed and glorified 
 martyr — that this was the well-understood language of such 
 inscriptions, and that I might depend on this interpretation. 
 
 I replied, that his process of reasoning did not strike me 
 as very logical. He found tablets without prayers for the 
 
354 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 dead, and at once assumed that they were the monuments 
 of martyrs who needed no prayers : and now he found a 
 figure of a praying man, and at once assumed it could 
 not represent the man buried beneath the monument, but 
 the Uving man who erected the monument. I understood 
 that the monument was always the monument of the dead 
 — that the inscription was always with reference to the 
 dead — that any picture or image, or other representation, 
 was designed for the dead ; and that it was quite new to 
 me, to hear of their representing the living. I regarded it 
 as representing the dead, and accordingly in the monuments 
 of the Catacombs, such figures are always of the same sex 
 as the dead person. 
 
 [In a subsequent conversation at my own residence, with 
 one of my friends from the Collegio Romano, this subject 
 was renewed, and I was not a little surprised at finding a 
 new and different interpretation given of this figure. It 
 was then argued that the kneeling figure represented the 
 buried dead — that it represented him as kneeling in prayer, 
 and that it thus shewed that the saints and martyrs in 
 heaven pray, and that as they cannot pray for themselves, 
 so they must be praying for us. In the Collegio Romano, 
 the figure was said to represent the living, but at my own 
 residence, it was said to represent the dead or departed ! 
 These inconsistencies are very frequent when arguing with 
 different persons.] 
 
 My friend replied, that I was quite mistaken in regard- 
 ing the figure as the representation of the departed one, 
 for that the known language of inscriptions required it 
 should be the representation of the living Christian, who 
 erected the tablet ; and it was designed to shew his belief 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 355 
 
 in the martyr's enjoyment of the heatific vision of God, 
 and that he was thus praying to the martyr to pray to 
 God for him— asking for the intercession of the martyr — 
 really, an ora 'pro nobis ; and it was thus a clear proof or 
 justification of " the Catholic Church," in praying to the 
 departed saints to pray for us. 
 
 I answered this hy saying, that I could not think the 
 figure represented the living Christian who erected the 
 tahlet — that such an ' interpretation was forced and un- 
 natural, for that it was the custom of all ages, and of all 
 nations, to represent the dead rather than the living, on 
 their monuments. I could not hut think that the figure 
 was designed to represent the dead, as one who had lived 
 and died a praying man . 
 
 He at once caught at my words, and said that if I re- 
 garded the figure as representing the departed saint, then 
 I must acknowledge it as evidence, that in the primitive 
 Church they thought the departed saints prayed ; and 
 that as they needed not to pray for themselves, they must 
 be praying for us. 
 
 I said that I did not regard the figure as representing 
 the departed saint as praying for us in heaven ; but as 
 having been a praying man in his life ; — that as the words 
 " in peace," and " in Christ," implied that the departed 
 had lived or died in the peace of God, and in the faith of 
 Christ, so the kneeling posture might imply that he lived 
 or died in prayer. I thought this the natural interpreta- 
 tion of the figure ; and I said that in England, and I 
 believed in other countries, and certainly in the Church of 
 St. Peter at Rome, the monumental statues always repre- 
 sent the departed person — that it was usual to represent 
 
356 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 them, not as they were when dead, hut as they were when 
 alive — the warrior as a warrior — the orator as an orator — 
 the painter as a painter — the clergyman as a clergyman ; 
 and I observed that all the monumental figures of popes 
 and nuns in St. Peter's, represented them as popes or nuns 
 — represented them as they were on earth, and not as 
 they are supposed to be in heaven ; and that in the same 
 way we ought to regard this kneeling figure, as represent- 
 ing the departed Christian as he lived or died on earth, a 
 praying man. He was represented kneeling, to shew he 
 was a man of prayer — a Christian man. There is an ex- 
 ample of it in scripture, where the conversion of St. Paul is 
 described in the simple words, " Behold, he prayeth ! " 
 
 There was no direct reply to this, but it was stated that 
 I could not deny that the s.aints departed pra3fed for the 
 Christians still on earth ; and that it was customary in the 
 primitive Church to pray for the dead. 
 
 I said that I believed it was a very early practice in the 
 Church to pray for the dead — that I thought it a very 
 foolish, though perhaps natural practice — that it always 
 seemed to me to be praying when it was too late, like pray- 
 ing for yesterday, for a thing gone by — but that at all 
 events praying/or the dead, was a very different thing from 
 praying to the dead — that the two seemed very inconsistent, 
 the former being wholly useless, as being too late ; and the 
 latter idolatrous, as offering a prayer to a creature which 
 ought only to be offered to the Creator. 
 
 It was evident that we were not likely to agree. The 
 truth was, that surrounded and assailed as I was, by four 
 of the reverend professors in their own College, I was not 
 disposed to be as gentle and as cautious as I might other- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 357 
 
 wise have been. One of the party called on me some days 
 afterwards, in company with a lay-brother, and we resumed 
 the subject in detail ; but there was nothing very important 
 elicited. 
 
 As much use is made, by the priests at Rome, of argu- 
 ments derived from the Catacombs, a few more words may 
 be added on the subject. Those Catacombs have for cen- 
 turies been in the possession of the monks of certain con- 
 vents, and no one is permitted to enter without the atten- 
 dance . of one or more of these ; and they are constantly 
 talking of new and wonderful discoveries of inscriptions, 
 and relics and chapels, which are sure to confound all 
 opponents of the Church of Rome. In truth, they are 
 able to invent any discovery that may suit them, and make 
 any arrangements within the Catacombs, that may serve 
 their purpose. They have exclusive charge of the Cata- 
 combs, and they cannot be regarded as over-scrupulous in 
 their reported discoveries. 
 
 It is not however in the Catacombs themselves, that an 
 anxious and earnest enquirer can obtain much satisfactory 
 information, respecting the practices or opinions of the first 
 Christians. It may be, and undoubtedly is, satisfactory to 
 one's curiosity, to witness those dark recesses which were 
 the scenes and theatre of some of the most striking events 
 in Christian story. But all, or almost all, the monuments 
 — the real mementos of the past have been removed. The 
 marble slabs that sealed the graves — the tablets with their 
 inscriptions, and all else that was real and certain — all that 
 could be depended on as likely to throw light on the past, 
 have been removed. Some have found their way into pri- 
 vate collections, a few have a place in the Capitol, a few 
 
358 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 more may be seen preserved in the Jesuits' College, while 
 the great mass has been removed to the Vatican, where 
 they form a great collection, — great in number, in import- 
 ance, and in interest. It may indeed take away somewhat 
 of the interest of such monuments, the' seeing them, not 
 in their own position beside the graves of the Catacombs ; 
 but still as there is no security against the Catacombs fall- 
 ing in and burying them for ever, it was of immense im- 
 portance that they should be removed to some place oi 
 safety where they might be preserved for ever. No place 
 could be more suitably selected than their present position 
 in the Vatican. 
 
 In the long gallery, called, I believe, la galleria lapidaria, 
 by which the series of galleries of Sculpture are approach- 
 ed, there are said to be deposited and exhibited for exam- 
 ination, four thousand monuments or works of antiquity. 
 Of these there is a very considerable portion connected with 
 Christian antiquity. Inserted on the wall on one side are 
 a vast number of monuments, tablets, inscriptions, being 
 memorials of the heathen dead. In the wall on the other 
 hand, are inserted a similar series of analogous monuments, 
 inscriptions and tablets, the memorials of the Christian 
 dead. The enquirer thus possesses at a glance all he re- 
 quires for a comparison of the practices and opinions or 
 both Heathens and Christians on these occasions. There 
 is but little difference between them, beyond that of the 
 Heathens, beginning vrith the words " divis Manibus," and 
 those of the Christians, ending with the words " in pace." 
 Nor indeed ought much to be expected. The ties of near 
 relationship are the same, whether among Heathens or 
 among Christians. The natural love of husband and wife 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 359 
 
 — the mutual bond of parent and child — the pure affection 
 of brother and sister are one and the same, whether among 
 Heathens or among Christians ; and as the griefs are as 
 sad, and the mourning as deep in one as in the other, ao 
 the language of affectionate and sorrowing remembrance — 
 the expressions of monumental inscriptions must be ex- 
 pected to be much the same, whether on the tablets of the 
 cinerary urns of Heathen Rome, or on the monuments be- 
 side the Catacomb-graTes of Christian Bome.* 
 
 Day after day, and week after week, have I paused in this 
 gallery to examine these monumental inscriptions. It 
 always occurred to me, that if a belief in the sufferings of 
 the dead in purgatory — if a belief in the efficacy of the 
 prayers of the living in behalf of the dead — if a belief in 
 the matter of fact of the departed saints praying for the 
 living — if a belief in the efficacy of any praying to or invoca- 
 tion of the departed saints — was held among the Christians 
 of the Church in those early ages, when the Church used 
 to hide herself — used to celebrate her worship — and used 
 to bury her dead in the Catacombs, there ought to be, and 
 there must be, some evidence of such belief in the inscrip- 
 tions, so numerous, which are to be found in the Catacombs. 
 The absence — the total and perfect absence of everything 
 of the kind, seems to argue powerfully that no such ideas 
 entered into the religious belief of the Christians of those 
 ages. 
 
 There are two things observable in those inscriptions. 
 
 * Amon^ the heathen inscriptions, is one which struck me as a beau- 
 tiful memorial from a husband to his wife. It was to the effect, that 
 never during their union, had she done anything to displease him but 
 once, and that was hy dying. 
 
360 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 The first is, that while some begin with the single word 
 PAX, almost all of them end with the words npace or in 
 PACE, or IN cHRisTo, Or some cross or other anagram of 
 Christ, expressing the same thing. There is seldom any 
 word connected with this. The inscription will generally 
 be found to contain the name of the dead, and the age or 
 number of years he may have lived, as thus, " To Julius, 
 a pious and well-deserving son, he lived XX years in 
 peace;" or"ToEvodia, she lived XXX years in Christ." 
 A careful examination of a large number- of these inscrip- 
 tions, gave the impression that the intention was to convey 
 the idea, that the person had died " in peace," that is, in 
 the peace of God, or " in Christ," that is, in the faith of 
 Christ ; and that nothing more or less was intended. 
 
 It is observable, that in a modern grave-yard in any 
 Roman Catholic country, there are always expressions in 
 the monumental inscriptions, which intimate the belief of 
 the Church of Rome. There is a request to the passing 
 traveller, to offer a prayer for the dead-^there is a statement 
 setting forth that it is a good thing to pray for the dead — 
 there is a prayer that the dead may rest in peace — there is 
 a request for the assisting ^prayers of the saints. These 
 and others of a similar tendency, are found in every ceme- 
 tery in Roman Catholic countries. But nothing like this 
 — nothing that has the faintest resemblance of this, or of 
 any opinion approaching to any of these, is to be found 
 among the innumerable inscriptions collected from the 
 Catacombs. The whole collection of inscriptions thus argues 
 unanswerably, that those opinions which have been of late 
 years so universally received in the Church of Rome, were 
 wholly unknown in the primitive Church. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 361 
 
 The other peculiarity in these inscriptions which deserves 
 attention, is the system of engraving signs or symbols on 
 the tablets. The cross, the ship, the fish are frequent ; 
 and still more, that common symbol of the cross, the 
 Greek X, with the P, as the two first letters of xpia-TCK;, 
 combined with the A, and fl, the whole being intended to 
 represent the dead as having died in the faith of Christ, 
 the Alpha and the Omega. The ship, like the ark of 
 Noah, seems to represent the Church ; and the dead is 
 thus described as one saved in the Church of God. The 
 fish, Ix^"?, a word composed of the initial letters of Ivjo-ss 
 XfioTo? 0e8 itof 2i»T»)j), was a very favourite symbol, and 
 accordingly sometimes appears on the monumental tablets, 
 implying that the dead had died in Christ. The dove is 
 often added as the emblem of peace ; and Jonah and the 
 fish as the emblem of the resurrection. Indeed, in all 
 those inscriptions, whatever form they assume, there is 
 conveyed the one plain and simple statement, that the 
 person who lay buried beneath the tablet, was a Christian ; 
 and all these several forms, assumed perhaps from the vary- 
 ing tastes of individuals, seem to be regarded as enough to 
 describe the dead as, having died in the peace of God, and 
 in the faith of Christ. 
 
 This simplicity of primitive Christianity is a very in- 
 teresting characteristic of those early ages. Indeed it is 
 quite refreshing to the spirit, which is oppressed by all 
 the garish show and complicated ceremonials of the present 
 times. It is absolutely a relief— a throwing off a burden, 
 to let the mind turn away from a series of difficult and 
 complicated doctrines — from a mass of dogmatical myste- 
 ries and scholastical subtleties — from a round of symboli- 
 
 R 
 
362 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 cal forms and unintelligible ceremonies, as associated with 
 every phase of religion at Rome ; and to let it rest for 
 awhile amidst the simplicity that characterized the religion 
 of those who were "the destitute, afflicted, tormented" of 
 the Churgh, and were compelled to hide themselves " in 
 dens and caves of the earth." The men who were faithful 
 amidst the fiercest persecutions, who counted it all joy to 
 he able to worship God in the darkness of the Catacombs, 
 and there lived and there died, were content to live in the 
 peace of God, and to die in the faith of Christ, and to in- 
 scribe on the tombs of those " who resisted unto blood, 
 striving against sin," the simple words in pace or in 
 cHRisTo. It seems to imply that the times are changed, 
 and that we are changed with them, wheh we yearn for 
 more. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 363 
 
 CHAPTER XII. 
 
 INDULGENCES — THEIR NATURE MISUNDERSTOOD — THEIR TRUE CHARAC- 
 TER AS EXPLAINED AT ROME— ILLUSTRATED BY THE INDULGENCES 
 CONNECTED WITH THE HOLY STAIRS— BY THOSE OF THE COLISEUM 
 — FACILITY OF OBTAINING INDULGENCES IN THE CHURCHES — AUTHO- 
 RITIES FOR THIS — THE USES OP INDULGENCES TO THE CHURCH OP 
 ROME — THE PRAYERS FOR THE CONVERSION OF ENGLAND — THEIR USE 
 IN ADVANCING THE WORSHIP OF ANY SAINT — IN PROMOTING CHARI- 
 TABLE INSTITUTIONS — IN PROPAGATING ANY PARTICULAR FORM OF 
 WORSHIP — INDULGENCES USED BY THE PRESENT POPE — FORM OF 
 ISSUING THEM. 
 
 There is scarcely any item in the pecularities of the 
 Church of Rome so httle understood among us, as the 
 subject of Indulgences. It has been much mistaken by 
 some, and sadly perverted by others. There are too many 
 among us, who, not having taken adequate pains to inform 
 themselves, have too often been contending against the cor- 
 ruptions of former ages, or against some shadows of their 
 own creation. Nor ought we perhaps to be surprised at 
 this, when we consider that the ideas respecting Indulgences 
 in more ancient and less informed times, were widely differ- 
 ent from those usually taught among the priesthood, and 
 generally received among the people in our modern and 
 better-instructed times. Whether the doctrine of the 
 R 2 
 
364 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 Church of Rome has undergone any change, either in its 
 essential nature, or only in Its method of exhibiting it, is a 
 point on which there may perhaps be some difference of 
 opinion, but there can be none as to the matter of fact, that 
 Indulgences at the age of the Reformatiofi were practically 
 very different from those of the present times ; at least they 
 were explained in a different manner and regarded in a dif- 
 ferent light among all classes of the people. 
 
 It was believed, both before and after the Reformation, 
 that the Church of Rome possessed, in the person of the 
 Pope, a power of issuing Indulgences. There were two 
 great evils arising out of the manner in which the exercise 
 of this power was commeftded among the people. 
 
 In th« first place it was believed, that these Indulgences 
 secured to the possessor not only the forgiveness of sins 
 committed, but also a forgiveness beforehand of sins not 
 yet committed. 
 
 In the next place it was a matter, not of belief, but of 
 every-day experience, that "these Indulgences could be pur- 
 chased — could be procured by money. 
 
 These two evils attended upon the system. Whether 
 they were only abuses of the system, as is now universally 
 asserted among the advocates of the Church of Rome, or 
 whether they were evils natural and essential to, and grow- 
 ing out of the system itself, this at least seems certain, 
 that at the age of the Reformation, the advocates of the 
 Church of Rome, in commending their Indulgences, taught 
 that they secured the forgiveness of sins still uncommitted, 
 and that they could be procured by purchase. And it is 
 also certain that it was the open and audacious sale of 
 Indvilgences that evoked the first movements of Luther 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 865 
 
 towards the Reformation of the Church. Thus much is 
 matter of historical record. 
 
 And it is this historical record that has proved the origin 
 of the opinions very generally entertained among, us on the 
 nature of Indulgences. It is too often forgotten, however, 
 that the authorities of Rome, recognising the existence of 
 these evils, promised their reformation, and thus practically 
 modified the system. 
 
 The doctrine of Indulgences practically considered, as 
 now held in the Church of Rome, is as follows : 
 
 It is held that, there are two kinds of punishment for 
 sin, according as the sin is mortal or venial, repented or 
 not repented of. These two kinds of punishment are 
 technically described as " the eternal punishment " and 
 " the temporal punishment." By the former is meant^ — 
 Hell. By the latter is chiefly meant — Purgatory. I 
 say " chiefly," because the temporal punishment is also 
 supposed to include fastings, penances, afflictions; scourg- 
 ings, and all such suff'erings in this life as may be supposed 
 capable of satisfying in any degree, the justice of God 
 against the sinner. But as it is believed that few, if any, 
 beside the saints and martyrs, have suffered in this life all 
 the temporal punishment due to their sins, they are be- 
 lieved to undergo what remains of their prescribed punish- 
 ment in the sufferings of Purgatory. It is called temporal 
 in opposition to eternal, not as merely belonging to this 
 life, but as being temporary — as having an end in Purga- 
 tory, in contrast to that punishment which has no end, in 
 Hell. 
 
 It is this temporal or temporary punishment in this life, 
 and then in purgatory, which is supposed to be mitigated 
 
366 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 by Indnlgences. An Indulgence is ilever supposed to for- 
 give a sin, but only to remit the punishment — the temporal 
 or rather the temporary punishment of the sin. It is 
 never supposed to remit the eternal punishment — the 
 punishmen,t of Hell. It has no reference to Hell, and has 
 no relation to such sins as are supposed punishable only 
 in Hell. An Indulgence is supposed only to affect the 
 duration of the temporal or temporary punishment of this 
 life or of purgatory, vfhich it remits in part- or in whole, 
 according as it is a plenary or a partial indulgence. A 
 plenary indulgence remits at once and for ever the whole 
 punishment of purgatory, and thus secures exemption from 
 that infliction. A partial indulgence, that is, an indulgence 
 for five, or ten, or an hundred years, is supposed to remit 
 five or ten or an hundred years of the sufferings in purga- 
 tory, and thus to expedite the transit of the soul to paradise. 
 It is well to be able to cite authority on a subject like 
 this, and happily, that authority is at hand. While I was 
 at Rome in the year 1 844, the authorities formally sanc- 
 tioned a work upon this subject. It was entitled, " A col- 
 lection of prayers and pious works, to which are attached 
 the sacred Indulgences." It contains many prayers, offices, 
 ceremonies, works, and describes the amount of indulgences 
 which the Church of Rome attaches to each, so that every 
 one desirous of an indulgence may find in this book the 
 ofiice or ceremony, the prayer or work, by which it can be 
 obtained. The book has been compiled with the sanc- 
 tion, and published with the authority, of " The Sacred 
 Congregation op Indulgences," — ^the highest authority 
 on this subject in the Church of Rome, and without which 
 even the Pope himself never issues an Indulgence. The 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 367 
 
 decree of the ' congregation,' together with the signature 
 of the Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation, are added in 
 the book, to ensure its reception as authorized ; and as the 
 present is the eleventh edition, the decree takes care to 
 specify that it is this eleventh edition — this present edition 
 now before me, which is so authorized. This decree is 
 dated from the oflSce of ' the Sacred Congregation of In- 
 dulgences at Rome,' November 13, 1843, immediately be- 
 fore its publication. From the introduction to this book, 
 I extract the following. 
 
 " Sin produces in the soul two most bitter fruits — Guilt 
 which deprives us of the favour and friendship of God ; 
 and Punishment, which prevents our enjoyment of Paradise. 
 This punishment is of two kinds : one eternal, the other 
 temporary . 
 
 " The guilt, together with the eternal punishment, is 
 totally remitted,^ through the infinite merits of Jesus 
 Christ, -in the holy sacrament of penance, when we come to 
 receive it with devout dispositions. As respects the tem- 
 porary punishment, so commonly yet not always remitted 
 altogether in that sacrament, it remains in a great degree 
 to make satisfaction in this life, through means of good 
 works and penance ; or, in the life to come, through means 
 of the fire of Purgatory. 
 
 " But who can penetrate the most lofty and secret de- 
 crees of God ? Who can ever know how much the Divine 
 justice demands in this present life in payment of what we 
 owe, or whether through means of such satisfaction the 
 temporal punishment which is due, has been remitted by 
 God either in whole or in part ? And to whom will it not 
 appear a tormenting payment, the making the full satisfac- 
 
368 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 tion in the fires of Purgatory ? Ever blessed and praised 
 be our most compassionate and merciful Divine Redeemer 
 Jesus Christ ! He had indeed conferred upon the Holy 
 Catholic Church from the time of its origin, the power of 
 communicating to us, and of our participating in, the trea- 
 sure of the Holy Indulgences, in the virtue of vfhich vre are 
 enabled with the least inconvenience to ourselves, {con 
 leggierissimo nostra incommodo) entirely to pay to Divine Jus- 
 tice whatever we owe for our sins, already remitted both as 
 respects the guilt and the eternal punishment. 
 
 " This is a treasure which continues for ever in the pre- 
 sence of God, the treasure of the merits and satisfactions of 
 Jesus Christ, of the most blessed 'Virgin Mary and of the 
 Saints, that is, the value of the satisfactions of the Divine 
 Redeemer, which were super-abundant and infinite, and 
 also of the most holy Mary, and of the Martyrs and of 
 the other Saints, which was not required for themselves for 
 thfe expiation of their own guiltinesses. These indulgences* 
 are called "the Heavenly treasure" by the sacred Council 
 of Trent. 
 
 "' This doctrine the Supreme Pontiff of holy memory, 
 Clement VI. taught, saying, that Jesus Christ together 
 with his super-abundant passion left to the Church militant 
 here on earth an infinite treasure, not deposited in a mea- 
 sure of meal nor buried in a field ; but committed to the 
 church, to be dispensed in a wholesome way to the faithful 
 by the blessed Peter, who holds the keys of Heaven, and 
 by his successors the Vicars of Jesus Christ on earth. To 
 the abundance of this treasure the merits of the blessed 
 Mother of God assist as a help, and also the merits of the 
 elect, from the first righteous one even to the last. Such 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 369 
 
 treasures being iafinite, have never been diminished nor 
 can be diminished, being as a boundless ocean which can- 
 not suffer diminution, by any quantity we can take from it^ 
 
 " It is not however in the power of each individual 
 Christian to apply this in his own mode but only when and 
 how, and in what amount, greater or less, the Holy Church 
 and the Supreme Pontiff of Rome may determine. 
 
 " Indulgences are usually distinguished into two classes : 
 some are called, partial Indulgences, that is for some days, 
 or some forty days or a year or more years, &c. Others 
 are called plenary Indulgences, or Indulgences in the form of 
 Jubilee. 
 
 " By partial Indulgences for days, or for forties, or for 
 years, &c., they remit to those who receive them, so much 
 of the temporary punishment, for which they would have 
 to make satisfaction either in this life or in the life to come, 
 [that is in purgatory,] as they would have to settle with 
 penances prescribed in the ancient canons of the Church, 
 called the Penitentials, for so many days, so many quaran- 
 tines, so many years. 
 
 By plenary Indulgences, or Indulgences in the form of 
 Jubilee — which are the same in effect, only that in the 
 plenary indulgence in the form of Jubilee, the confessors 
 have the power of absolving from the more reserved cases, 
 to dispense or commute some simple vows, &c. — they 
 remit the whole of the temporary punishment for which 
 we stand indebted towards God, even though entirely par- 
 doned ; and this too in such a way that after worthily re-" 
 ceiving a plenary Indulgence, if a person happens to die, 
 the theologians affirm that they would depart directly to 
 Paradise. They assert the same thing respecting the holy 
 R 
 
370 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 souls in Purgatory, when a plenary Indulgence is applied 
 to tbem by our prayers " swffragio da noi," and is applica- 
 ble if the Divine justice sees fit to apply it. 
 
 '• From all this one may learn, of how great a price are 
 the Indulgences — of how great value and efficacy, aiid of 
 what extensive spiritual advantage they may be to faithful 
 Christians." 
 
 A careful examination of the foregoing — published at 
 Rome, and authorised by the congregation of the Index in 
 1 844 — will unfold the opinions held at the present day on 
 the subject of Indulgences in the Church of Rome. It 
 contains the following propositions : 
 
 1 . — After the guilt of sin is forgiven, there remains a 
 temporary punishment to he endured. This consists of 
 sufferings, to be endured either in this present life, where 
 it assumes the^ forms of fastings, penances, mortifications, 
 &c., or in the life to come, where it is connected with the 
 fires of purgatory, and where all that remains on the sinner 
 must be expiated. 
 
 2. — ^There are some persons, as the Virgin Mary, the ' 
 Martyrs, and the Saints, whose lives have been so holy and 
 meritorious, as that they possess merit enough and more 
 than enough for themselves, for their own forgiveness and 
 salvation. And this merit to spare — this superabundant 
 merit — this superfluous merit of theirs, is added to, and 
 assists and increases the infinite merits of Jesus Christ. 
 
 3. — These infinite merits of Jesus Christ on one hand, 
 and these superfluous merits of Mary, the Martyrs, and the 
 Saints, which remained over and above their own necessi-- 
 ties, go to constitute a treasury of merit in the possession 
 of the Church of Rome. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 371 
 
 4. — The Church of Eome has power to take such por- 
 tion of this treasure of merits, and apply it as may be 
 necessary to such persons as may stand in need of it : and 
 shall have complied with the required conditions. This is 
 done in the form of an Indulgence, and can only be done 
 by the .Pope, who as the successor of Peter, possesses the 
 power of dispensing this treasure. 
 
 5. — The Indulgence thus ceded, secures to the recipient 
 such a supply of merits — merits of others, not his own — 
 merits out of the treasury of the merits of Christ, Mary, 
 Martyrs and saints, as may be named in it. If it be for one 
 hundred days or one hundred years, it applies an amount 
 of merits sufficient to satisfy for the temporary punishment 
 of this world or of Purgatory, which should otherwise re- 
 main to be endured for that hundred days oi' hundred years 
 by the body on earth, or by the soul in Purgatory. 
 
 Such are the doctrines respecting Indulgences, as now 
 held and taught in the Church of Rome. It will at once 
 be perceived, that they apply not to the guilt of sin, but to 
 that which is practically of more importance, namely, the 
 punishment of sin. And it may also be perceived, and it 
 is a most important item in the matter, that an Indulgence 
 of three hundred years must have reference to the tempo- 
 rary punishment in Purgatory, and not merely to the tem- 
 porary punishment of this life ; inasmuch as the measure 
 conceded exceeds the possible space of human life : so that 
 although such an Indulgence, and all Indulgences, may 
 theoretically apply both to this world and to Purgatory, 
 yet for all practical uses they mainly apply to Purgatory. 
 And therefore, dealing with the subject practically — an 
 Indulgence may be regarded as the remission of the suffer- 
 
372 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 ings in Purgatory for the space of time which is specified, 
 and consequent admission of the soul to heaven, all the 
 earlier according to the days and years accorded. 
 
 It will at once be perceived, that this is not a forgiveness 
 of sins not yet committed, or a permission to commit a sin 
 contemplated. The real doctrine is sufficiently objection- 
 able, not to stand in need of any exaggeration. It is prac- 
 tically the assertion of a power in the Church of Rome, to 
 lessen the years of suffering in Purgatory; and so to expe- 
 dite the soul in its passage from that imaginary region to 
 the glories of Paradise. 
 
 And now to illustrate the practice. 
 
 It is scarcely possible to form a just conception of the 
 numbers and extent of Indulgences — the mode in which 
 they are applied, or the facility with which they are ob- 
 tained, without a visit to the churches, the stations, the 
 convents, and holy places of Rome. There is scarcely a 
 church or a station, a convent or a holy place — there is 
 scarcely a service or a ceremony, a profession, or other act 
 of religion,' which has not its own special and- peculiar 
 Indulgences ; and these are so numerous, and so easily 
 obtained, that indulgences for some hundreds of years may 
 easily be secured by the religious exercises of a single day. 
 It is a certain fact, that the religious efforts of a man- — sup- 
 posing him to possess the required dispositions — continued for 
 one day, may easily secure Indulgences for several hundred 
 years ! A visit to certain churches that are privileged, 
 offering a prescribed prayer at each — a visit to certain 
 crosses and images and pictures, repeating some appointed 
 prayer, or performing some prescribed homage, as kissing 
 them, kneeling before them, &c. — a visit to some stations. 
 
THE JESUITS ,AT ROME. S73 
 
 with the usual ceremonies, entitle the persons to Indul- 
 gences that extend through centuries. 
 
 The following is an illustration of the system : — 
 Adjoining the Palace of the Lateran, and the Basilica or 
 church of St. John of the Lateran, is a very fine building, 
 consisting chiefly of five lofty arches, and containing within 
 each arch a lofty flight of marble steps. Perhaps the na- 
 ture of the building will be better understood, by imagin- 
 ing five lofty flights of steps erected close to each other, 
 and all ascending to one and the same gallery, while a wall 
 is raised to separate each flight, and each is vaulted or 
 arched over so as to be quite distinct of itself, though all 
 ascend and open on the same gallery. The centre flight is 
 called the Holy Stairs (Santa Scala) and is said to have 
 been the flight of stairs belonging to the palace of Pontius 
 Pilate at Jerusalem . The mere fact of its having belonged to 
 such a heathen man, would not in itself have imparted any 
 peculiar sanctity to it ; but it is asserted, though on what 
 authority we are not informed, that our Lord was dragged 
 up and down these stairs under such circumstances of 
 suffering that they were stained by his blood. This has 
 accordingly invested them with the character of sanctity, 
 and many and great are the privileges conceded to all per- 
 sons who devoutly visit them. It is true that in a church 
 in Germany, near Bonn, they claim the possession of these 
 same stairs of Pontius Pilate, and they freely denounce as a 
 base imposture all pretence to the possession of the true 
 and real Santa Scala, at Kome. ' They argue with no small 
 shew of reason that the stairs at Bonn and the stairs at 
 Rome cannot both be authentic — that one must assuredly 
 
374 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 be a mere fiction and base imposition upon the faithful, 
 and that as the stairs in possession of the monks near 
 Bonn are undoubtedly true, and proved to be true by the 
 most wonderful miracles of healing the sick, restoring the 
 blind, and strengthening the maimed, constantly performed 
 there, so the stairs at Rome, pretending to be the holy 
 stairs of Pontius Pilate, are undoubtedly false and fictitious. 
 Notwithstanding all this however, the stairs at Rome main- 
 tain their character and their votaries, and their wonderful 
 indulgences. 
 
 The indulgences are thus set forth by autViority. 
 
 " One of the sacred memorials of the sufferings of our 
 Lord Jesus Christ is the Holy Stairs, and it is worthy of 
 every act of religion and devotion, as having been ascended 
 more than once by our divine Redeemer, and having been 
 consecrated by his precious blood in the last hours of his 
 life. Since then — after being brought from Jerusalem to 
 Rome at the expense of the Holy Empress Helena, about 
 the year 326, and placed near the Patriarchal Lateran 
 Basilica, and afterwards magnificently placed by Sixtus V., 
 in 1589, in a chapel celebrated in the whole world, called 
 the Holy of Holies — it was much frequented, and, through 
 the piety of faithful Christians of every class and condition, 
 was ascended devoutly and on the knees. 
 
 " In order for ever to excite the faithful to so pious and 
 useful an exercise, the Holy Leo IV., about the year 850, 
 and Pascal II., by his Bull of August 5, 1100, being the 
 first of his Pontificate (of which the originals are kept in 
 the archives of the said Basilica) conceded nine years' 
 indulgences for each of the twenty-eight steps of the said 
 Holy Stairs, to whosoever with a truly contrite heart as- 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 375 
 
 cends them kneeling and praying, and meditating on the 
 sufferings of our Lord Jesus Christ. 
 
 "Pius VII., afterwards by a decree of the Holy College 
 of Indulgences, on 2nd September, 1817, renewed and 
 conceded for ever the forementioned indulgence, making 
 it applicable also to the souls in purgatoiy." Racolta, 
 p. 59. 
 
 It is apparent from this, that the devotee obtains an 
 indulgence of nine years for each step, and as there are 
 twenty-eight steps, he may secure by one complete per- 
 formance an indulgence of 252 years ! 
 
 The. mode of performing this pilgrimage is as follows. 
 
 The devotee on approaching the stairs sprinkles himself 
 with holy water, makes the sign of the cross, and then 
 kneels at the lowest step. There he usually remains either 
 in meditation or in prayer rather less than one minute. He 
 then ascends one step on his knees, never rising upon his 
 feet, which is regarded as approaching sacrilege, but always 
 on his knees. There he usually remains as before, rather 
 less than a minute, and very seldom exceeding a minute. 
 And he gradually ascends, meditating or praying, and still 
 upon his knees, till he has completed the whole flight of 
 twenty-eight steps, and attained the gallery, where there is 
 an altar and representation of the crucifixion ; he then 
 descends one of the other flights upon his feet, and the 
 performance is completed. The whole performance gene- 
 rally occupies from twenty to thirty minutes. He now 
 possesses an indulgence which secures to him such a supply 
 of merit, not his own, but out of the church's treasury 
 of superabundant merit, as will overbalance 252 years of 
 sufferings in purgatory ; and will expedite by 252 years his 
 
376 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 admission to the glories of paradise ! And not only this, 
 but in case he does not himself stand in need of so great a 
 supply, he is able to apply the surplus to the account or 
 credit of any other soul in purgatory which he may charit- 
 ably wish to relieve ! This additional privilege was con- 
 ceded so lately as 1817 by Pope Pius VII. 
 
 There is something strange in all this. It might awaken 
 a smile, but for the frightful wickedness of the imposture, 
 and the still more frightful ruin it entails on the souls of 
 the multitude. I have seen priests and monks, gentlemen 
 and ladies, shepherds and peasants, soldiers and women, 
 all engaged in the acquisition of this indulgence. And 
 though I have often visited this place, and observed some- 
 times very few persons, yet on one occasion I repkoned 
 ninety-five persons crowded together on their knees on the 
 stairs at one moment, while there was an unceasing stream 
 of votaries arriving and departing, sufficient to maintain that 
 number in actual performance for a large portion of the day. 
 
 The Coliseum presents another illustration of this sys- 
 tem. It could scarcely be supposed that this most magni- 
 ficent of ruins, so long the arena of Pagan superstition and 
 of heathen sports, could be rendered what it now is, and 
 so arranged as to minister in the wildest extravagance to 
 the superstition of modern Rome. There are two entrances 
 to the arena. Within one is an altar with two pictures, 
 one of Christ, the other of Mary. And within the oppo- 
 site entrance is a small marble slab or tablet inserted in the 
 ruins. On this is engraved a representation of a cross, and 
 the following inscription : 
 
 " Whoever kisses the Holy Cross, acquires an indulgence 
 of one year and forty days." 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 377 
 
 As if this were not sufficient reward to all who visit the 
 ruins-of the Coliseum, the eyes of the visitant immediately 
 on entering fall upon a tall wooden cross erected in the 
 centre of the arena. Affixed to this is a notice as follows.— 
 
 "Whoever kisses the Holy Cross, acquires an indul- 
 gence of two hundred days." 
 
 And thus the pilgrim, by kissing these two crosses of the 
 Coliseum, a service which may be accomplished in the space 
 of one minute may secure indulgences for above 600 days ; 
 — an exemption from PurgatoYial suffering for 600 days ! 
 By kissing these two crosses he will gain admission to hea- 
 ven 600 days earlier than he otherwise would ! And yet 
 this is as nothing compared with the other indulgences 
 that remain for those who visit the stations — the fourteen 
 stations which surround the arena. These stations are 
 called the via cruets, or the way of the cross, and the privi- 
 leges annexed are stated to be the same which are conceded 
 to those who become pilgrims, and visit the Holy Land, 
 the Holy Sepulchre, the city of Jerusalem, &c., — namely, 
 plenary indulgences ! 
 
 The same system of extending Indulgences is applied to 
 those who visit certain churches. Almost every church, 
 whether parochial or conventual — whether belonging to a 
 parish or attached to a convent, is possessed of special and 
 peculiar privileges. And the church is visited and fre- 
 quented by the devout and superstitious, according to the 
 advantages that it presents in the amount of indulgences 
 and other similar privileges accruing to the visitant. There 
 is scarcely a day in the year on which a man may not, as 
 he passes along the street, obtain a plenary indulgence, or 
 at least an indulgence of several years, by entering some 
 
378 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 particular chnrcla — such church, with the indulgences at- 
 tached, being as regularly published as anything else in the 
 calendar. 
 
 The following will illustrate this : 
 
 " In order to excite the faithful to make such visits to 
 the churches on the days on which there are stations, and 
 there to pray according to the intention of the supreme 
 Pontiff, the Pontiffs Saint Gregory and others, his succes- 
 sors, conceded divers Indulgences, which were confirmed 
 for ever by Pius VI, with a decree of the Sacred College of 
 Indulgences on July 9, 1777." Of these Indulgences, 
 there here follows an Index with the days and churches" 
 where there are stations. 
 
 " Leo XII, afterwards by his own act, through the 
 agency of the Sacred College of Indulgences, on Feb. 28, 
 1827, still further conceded for ever to all faithful Chris- 
 tians an Indulgence of forty years and forty quarantines, 
 fi. e. forty years and 1 600 days) applicable also to the dead, 
 for every time that they visit, during Lent, the churches 
 where there are stations, in the manner prescribed in the 
 appended book. Furthermore, he conceded to all who have 
 made such visits three times in three distinct days, a ple- 
 nary Indulgence, &c." (p. 298.) 
 
 In the Index here referred to, there are the days, 
 the churches, the stations, and Indulgences, carefully 
 arranged. I extract the following, in order to illustrate the 
 system : 
 
 "-On Jan. 1, the Circumcision of our Lord Jesus Christ, 
 a station at S. Maria inTrastevere — an Indulgence of thirty 
 years and twelve hundred days. 
 
 '• On Ash- Wednesday, at S. Sabina, at S. Alessio, at S. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 379 
 
 Maria in Coemedin — au Indulgence of fifteen years and six 
 hundred days. 
 
 " On the following Thursday, at S. Georgio in Velabro, 
 and at Jesus € Maria — an Indulgence of ten years and four 
 hundred days. 
 
 " On the fourth Sunday in Lent at Santa Croce in Geru- 
 salemme — an Indulgence oi fifteen years and six hundred 
 days. 
 
 " On Palm Sunday, at S. Giovani in Laterano— an In- 
 dulgence of twenty-five years and one thousand days. 
 
 " On Holy Thursday, at S. Gio. in Lat., after confession 
 and communion — a plenary Indulgence. 
 
 " On Holy Friday, at Santa Croce in Gerusalemme — an 
 Indulgence of thirty years and twelve hundred days. 
 
 " On Easter Sunday, at S. Maria Maggiore, after con- 
 fession and communion — a plenary Indulgence. 
 
 " On Easter Monday, at S. Pietro in Vaticano, and at 
 S. Onofrio — an Indulgence of thirty years and twelve hun- 
 dred days. 
 
 " On Thursday, Ascension-day, at S. Pietro in Vaticano, 
 after confession and communion — a plenary Indulgence. 
 
 " On Saturday, the Vigil of Whitsunday, at S. Gio. in 
 Lat., — an Indulgence of ten years and four hundred days. 
 
 " On Whitsunday, at Pietro Vaticano — an Indulgence 
 of thirty years and twelve hundred days." (p. 301.) 
 
 Thus much will be sufficient to illustrate the system. 
 There is scarcely a day in the year on which these Indul- 
 gences are not attached to some one or more churches, so 
 that a stranger is surprised at the manner in which a per- 
 son passing along the street seems suddenly to recollect 
 that by entering such a church, by the doors of which he 
 
380 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 is passing, he may advance himself some one or more steps 
 on the ladder of heaven. He seems to think that he may 
 as well give himself a lift at so little trouble. He enters 
 the church — kneels at one of the altars — prays an Ave or 
 Pater for about half a minute — leaves the church and re- 
 sumes his walk, with the pleasant feeling that he has thus 
 easily secured some twenty or thirty years' Indulgence ; and 
 so shortened his sojourn in an imaginary Purgatory. 
 
 Having frequently attended these privileged churches on 
 their privileged days, we were sometimes Surprised at the 
 small number of persons who attended notwithstanding 
 the Indulgences. Except music, or a procession of relics, 
 or something remarkable was anticipated, the number was 
 much smaller than might be expected. I had imagined 
 that an Indulgence of twenty or thirty years would have 
 proved a greater attraction. But I soon found that the 
 privileged churches, and privileged days, are become so 
 numerous, and the Indulgences of every period of duration 
 so common, and so easily secured, that they were becoming 
 cheap — were falling in value in the eyes of the people. 
 
 But still Indulgences have their uses. The power of 
 issuing them, as annexed to special forms of prayer or 
 special ceremonies, or special works, is very useful to the 
 Court of Eome. It enables the Pope to forward any spe- 
 cial object in which he may be interested, or which may 
 seem important to the interests or the influence of the 
 Church of Rome. It is frequently found that an offer of 
 Indulgences will effect among the people that which an 
 . appeal to their religious or charitable feelings has failed to 
 accomplish. If, for example, it seem desirable for some 
 convent of monks to bring the worship of some particular 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 381 
 
 saint into more general fashion, their object is more effec- 
 tually accomplished, not by an appeal to the judgment of 
 the people, but by procuring and publishing a grant of 
 Indulgences annexed to this worship. If it seem desirable 
 to establish and sustain some charitable and benevolent 
 institution, some hospital for the sick, or some home for 
 the houseless, it is accomplished by an issue of Indulgences 
 to every benefactor, rather than by an appeal to the chari- 
 table and benevolent feelings of the people. If it seems 
 desirable that any particular form of prayer or ceremony 
 should com'e into more general use, the object is effected 
 not by a statement of the propriety or suitableness of the 
 thing, but by a liberal issue of Indulgences to all who make 
 use of that particular prayer, or join in that particular 
 ceremony. This system seems to characterize every thing 
 connected with religion at Rome ; and it is one of the 
 most saddening features in the present state of religion in 
 this city of the church. An appeal to a selfish hope of 
 Indulgence for themselves will often effect among the peo- 
 ple, that which an appeal to a generous spirit of Christian 
 charity for others has failed to accomplish ! 
 
 A curious illustration of this has very lately occurred. 
 It was deemed fitting that the people of Rome should pray 
 for the conversion of England from Protestantism to Ro- 
 manism. It was thought wise to take the opportunity of 
 awakening hopes at Rome arising out of the religious move- 
 ment now going on in England ; and accordingly the fol- 
 lowing was duly issued by authority : I give it as it ap- 
 peared in the public press. 
 
 " Not a few persons distinguished for piety, have besought 
 us with urgent prayers to grant permission for the solemn 
 
382 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 festival of a Novena [nine day's service] in the church of 
 Gesu [that of the society of Jesuits], in order to implore 
 from Almighty God, the wider spread and happy increase 
 of the Catholic faith in England. The Holy . Father has 
 not only listened favourably to this pious request, but has 
 alsopromised to all the faithful who take an active part in 
 the ceremony, a partial Indulgence of three hundred days 
 for every visit, and a plenary Indulgence to those who 
 attend the Novena five times at least, it being understood 
 that at the same time such persons are to approach the 
 Confessional and Lord's Supper. This Novena is to begin 
 at eleven o'clock a.m., the 17th of January ,-in the foremen- 
 tioned church. Whether ye look. Christian brethren, at 
 the great and noble aim in behalf of which these public 
 prayers are oifered to the Almighty, or whether ye calculate 
 the advantage of the Holy Indulgence, by means of which we 
 shorten the punishment due to our sins, in either case ye must 
 ■ in every way, to the best of your strength, interest your- 
 selves in this matter, and take part in this pious exercise ; 
 by praying to the Giver of all good and the Father of all 
 mercy, that he will pour out over that realm and its inha- 
 bitants, his light, and those gifts of grace, for obtaining 
 which alone our prayers will be eifectual." 
 
 Here the appeal is two-fold : there is an appeal certainly 
 to " the great and noble aim " of the conversion of Eng- 
 land, but no one can read the document without feeling 
 that the appeal is mainly to self — to the selfish advantage 
 arising from the promised Indulgences. There is not the 
 high, noble, enthusiastic aspiration of enlarged and Chris- 
 tian hearts ; but there is the petty, ignoble, contracted and 
 unchristianloveof self,stampedineffaceablyupon the system. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 383 
 
 But I return to the " Raccolta," and from that autho- 
 rized work proceed to illustrate this matter, by an induc- 
 tion of particulars as the best and fairest mode of illus- 
 tration. 
 
 I. The first sjiall illustrate the issue of Indulgences to 
 establish or promote the worship or veneration of any par- 
 ticular saint. Some order of Monks resolves to patronize 
 the saint, and they apply for Indulgences for all who exalt 
 this saint. 
 
 " In order to propagate among Christians the devotion to 
 Saint Stanislaus Kostka, also because it is directed to in- 
 crease that of the most Holy Mary, Pius VII., by two de- 
 crees of April 3, and May 1, 1821 ; and Leo XII., with 
 other decrees of Jan. 21, and Feb. 25, 1825, these being 
 examined and approved by the sacred college of Indulg- 
 ences, May 13, 1826, have conceded, — 
 
 " I . A plenary Indulgence for ever on the feast of the 
 said Saint, on the 1 3th of November, or on the Sunday on 
 which, by the licence of the bishop, it may be for the con- 
 venience of the people to celebrate such feasts. 
 
 " 2. An Indulgence of seven years, and two hundred 
 and eighty days, during the ten weeks preceding his feast, 
 in honour of the ten months of his noviciate, every time 
 they visit the Church, &c. 
 
 " An Indulgence of one hundred days, for those who 
 on every day of the Novena preceding his feast, assist 
 devoutly, with contrite heart and praying, &c. 
 
 " 4. An Indulgence of one hundred days, for every time 
 each day, for whoever recites an Ave and a Pater before 
 the image of the Saint in any church, &c. 
 
 " 5. A plenary Indulgence on any day of the month, at 
 
384 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 will, for those who perform this exercise [praying before 
 the image of the Saint] for one month continually after 
 confession, communion, prayer, &c. 
 
 " 6. An Indulgence of one hundred days, to whoever 
 with contrite hearts shall assist at the retreat called after 
 Saint Sebastian, &c." (p. 271.) 
 
 From this it appears that an Indulgence of 100 days, an 
 Indulgence of nearly eight years, and even a plenary In- 
 dulgence, may be secured by devotion to this Saint ; so 
 that a sinner may secure exemption from all the sufferings 
 of purgatory, from all punishment there for his sins, and 
 may secure an immediate entrance into Heaven, if only he 
 joins in these devotions to this Saint ! There is no allu- 
 sion to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, any more than 
 if he had never lived, or suffered, or died ! There is only 
 this devotion to some supposed Saint, a devotion not com- 
 mended to the piety or the judgment of men ; 'but to their 
 selfish desire to obtain indulgence, to shorten their own 
 sufferings in purgatory ! 
 
 II. The same observation applies to the founding and 
 supporting all charitable and benevolent institutions, as 
 Hospitals, Seminaries, Penitentiaries and similar establish- 
 ments. In England. these institutions spring from the 
 spirit of benevolence, and they are maintained by the cha- 
 ritable feelings of the public, towards those whose misfor- 
 tunes, or ignorance, or errors, have made them the fitting 
 objects of such establishments. They are and ever will be 
 the noblest monuments, and truest evidence to the practical 
 character of " the true religion established arnong us." 
 But in Eome they are founded and supported on totally 
 different principles, and an appeal to the spirit of unselfish 
 
THE JESUITS At ROME. 385 
 
 benevolence would be vain and useless. At least tbe autho- 
 rities of the Church of Rome never made such an appeal, 
 but deal only with the selfish spirit of her people, offering 
 Indulgences to all who will become members of their asso- 
 ciations, and benefactors of their institutions ; so that the 
 funds are applied to such benevolent and charitable esta- 
 blishments, not in a spirit of benevolence and charity 
 towards others, but in a selfish desire to secure the pro- 
 mised Indulgences for themselves. 
 
 The best and greatest of the benevolent institutions of 
 Rome — that of St. Michele, is a suitable illustration of 
 this. The following is the mode of appeal by which the 
 authorities have commended it to the people : 
 
 " For the Holy House of Refuge. 
 
 " Pius VII., by the rescript of the Secretary of Memo- 
 rials, dated Sept. 16, 1806, conceded the following Indul- 
 gences for ever to all the faithful, who shall assist towards 
 either the spiritual or temporal well-being of the Holy 
 house of Refuge, erected at Rome in 1806, near S. Maria 
 in Trastevere, for those women only who having completed 
 their assigned terms of condemnation in the public prison 
 called S. Michele, wish to enter of their own accord into 
 the said House, and live there far away from dangerous 
 temptations, and there perform penance for their past 
 transgressions. 
 
 " 1. A plenary Indulgence on the day on which persons, 
 after having confessed and communicated, shall be enrolled 
 as members or benefactors. 
 
 " 2. A plenary Indulgence on the 27th of December, 
 S 
 
386 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 for those who having confessed and communicated, shall 
 visit the church of St. Giovanna in Ayno, when the direc- 
 tors celebrate the divine offices. 
 
 " 3. A plenary Indulgence in the moment of death to 
 those penjtents who, from the heart, invoke the most holy 
 name of Jesus and Mary. 
 
 " 4. An Indulgence of two hundred days, to those who 
 give or in any way procure what may assist the poor peni- 
 tents, either spiritually or corporally. 
 
 " 5. An Indulgence of sixty days to those who give them 
 any bread, or give alms to the house, and every time that 
 they procure such to be given by others, or in any way 
 assist the same. 
 
 "6. An Indulgence of sixty days, every time any per- 
 son gives alms towards placing the penitents in honest 
 matrimony, or in a nunnery. 
 
 " 7. An Indulgence of one hundred days, every time 
 any person assists at the anniversaries or recitals of the 
 offices for the deceased members and benefactors. 
 
 " 8. Finally, each member and benefactor shall, during 
 life, have part in all the prayers and good works, &c., 
 which are performed by these women, and at death there 
 will be celebrated three masses for his soul." (p. 313.) 
 
 Such is the method adapted to the minds of the Romans, 
 to induce them to support this important Institution. It 
 is not an appeal to their sympathies for the destitute, but 
 an offer of a plenary Indulgence to all who become mem- 
 bers and benefactors. It is not an appeal to their Chris- 
 tian charity, but an offer of two hundred days' Indulgence 
 — as a recompense for every assistance that may be ren- 
 dered. It is not an appeal to their love of God and their 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 387 
 
 gratitude to Christ, but an offer of an Indulgence of sixty- 
 days to any who give food or money in its support, and an 
 Indulgence of sixty days to all who give dowries to enable 
 the penitents to marry or to enter a nunnery, with a share 
 in all the prayers and good works of the penitents. 
 
 The Institution which is the object of this appeal is one 
 of the best, if not the very best and most worthy of general 
 and especially of Christian support, among all the Institu- 
 tions of the Roman states. It is a Magdalen Asylum. It is 
 a House of Refuge for reclaimed prisoners. It is an esta- 
 blishment for orphans. It is a school. It is an Institu- 
 tion that appeals to all the best feelings of our common 
 nature, as well as to all our Christian sympathies. The 
 plea for the poor^for the orphan — for the erring, may not 
 easily be disregarded ; and yet this interesting Institution, 
 notwithstanding its hallowed objects, would languish and 
 die, having appealed in vain to the benevolent feelings and 
 Christian sympathies of the Roman people, if the autho- 
 rities had not purchased pecuniary support and personal 
 assistance, by a prodigal expenditure of Indulgences. The 
 benevolent and charitable institutions would all fail of sup- 
 port, if some such selfish end as the acquisition of Indul- 
 gences was not the recompence of such support. Happy 
 would it be, however, if there had never been a worse ap- 
 plication of Indulgences ! 
 
 III. It has been already stated that this power of issuing 
 Indulgences has its uses for the Church. If this power Las 
 been exercised for good and for purposes of good, as just 
 detailed, it has also been used for the very worst purposes 
 of superstition. The times when the issue of Indulgences 
 was the signal of rebellion and revolt, the price of treason, 
 S 2 
 
388 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 and the harbinger of scenes of blood, have, it may well be 
 believed, long since passed away for ever ; but they are 
 still the promoters of superstition and the incentives to 
 idolatry. It has been already stated that if it be an object 
 with any convent of Friars, to bring any superstition, or 
 ceremony, or prayer, into more general use, the object is 
 easiest accomplished by obtaining an issue of Indulgences, 
 to be annexed to the utterance of the prayer, the partaking 
 in the ceremony, or the joining in the superstition. It is 
 recommended, not to the judgment of the people, or to their 
 own spontaneous feeling of religion, approving that which 
 is recommended ; but it is presented to them as that whose 
 adoption will secure a specified number of Indulgences in 
 the most easy manner. 
 
 The following will illustrate this in the superstition of 
 " the Rosary " of St. Bridget as detailed in the Raccolta : 
 
 Indulgences annexed to the Rosary of St. Bridget. 
 
 " 1 . Every faithful Christian who shall say the Rosary 
 or Crown of St. Bridget, shall acquire one hundred days 
 Indulgence for each Pater Nost'er, also one hundred days 
 Indulgence for each Ave Maria, and also one hundred days 
 Indulgence for each Credo. 
 
 " 2. Whoever shall recite this Rosary or crown of fifteen 
 decades, shall acquire in addition to> the foregoing Indul- 
 gences of one hundred days, &c., a further Indulgence of 
 seven years and two hundred and eighty days. 
 
 " 3. Whoever shall recite the same Rosary or Crown with 
 other persons one or more, all and each shall acquire the 
 same Indulgence as if all had been recited by one alone. 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 389 
 
 " 4. Whoever shall recite the said crown of five decades 
 every day through the whole year, being truly penitent 
 and having confessed and communicated, and shall pray 
 for the whole Church, &c., shall obtain a plenary indul- 
 gence. 
 
 "5. Whoever shall recite the crown of five decades once 
 in the week, and shall have confessed and communicated 
 on the feast of St. Bridget, visiting her church, or the 
 parish or other church, and shall pray to God as directed, 
 shall acquire a plenary Indulgence. 
 
 " 6. Whoever, carrying with him the said Rosary, shall 
 pray, bending the knee at the sound of the bell, for any 
 person in the agony of death, shall every time he so does, 
 acquire an Indulgence of forty days." (p. 146.) 
 
 There are several other Indulgences of various durations 
 connected with this Rosary or crown of St. Bridget. They 
 are.too tedious to be all inserted here, but they conclude 
 with a note stating " all the aforesaid Indulgences can yet 
 further be applied to the souls in purgatory," so that an 
 individual on earth may, by reciting this Rosary, shorten 
 the duration of purgatorian sufferings, for his friends whom 
 he may suppose to be in that imaginary region. 
 
 The Litany of the Virgin Mary is well known ; the 
 Ind,ulgences to be acquired by reciting it, are thus stated 
 in the Raccolta. 
 
 " In order that faithful Christians may always be yet 
 more excited to have recourse to the most holy Mary, that 
 she may pray to God for us, and at the same time to honor 
 her, Sixtus V., conceded an Indulgence of two hundred" 
 days for every time a person devoutly and with contrite 
 heart recites the said litany. Benedict XII., by a decree of 
 
390 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 the Sacred College of Indulgences, dated Jan. 12, 1728' 
 confirmed the same Indulgences, and Pius VII. confirmed 
 it anew by the decree of the said Sacred College, dated 
 Sep. 30, 1817; conceding yet further for ever a plenary 
 Indulgence, to those who shall recite it on any of the five 
 feasts of the blessed Virgin, the Conception, the Nativity, 
 the Annunciation, the Purification, the Assumption. Such 
 Indulgences being yet further applicable to the souls in 
 Purgatory." (p. 148.) 
 
 It will be observed that these and the following, and 
 other Indulgences are of very recent date. 
 
 The means by which the use of any new form of prayer, 
 however repugnant to the judgment of the people, may be 
 advanced, is thus illustrated : 
 
 " In order to increase among the faithful a devotion to 
 Jesus and Mary, in the invoking their most holy names in 
 union together with that of St. Joseph, to recommend 
 themselves to them in the last moments of life, on which 
 eternity depends, Pius VII. by the decrees of the sacred 
 college of Indulgences, dated April 28, 1807, conceded a 
 perpetual Indulgence of three hundred days for every time 
 they recite devoutly with a contrite heart, the three follow- 
 ing ejaculations, 
 
 " Jesus, Joseph, and Mary, I give you my heart and my 
 soul. 
 
 " Jesus, Joseph, and Mary, assist me in my last agony. 
 
 " Jesus, Jos.eph, and Mary, I breathe out my soul to you 
 in peace. 
 
 " To whomsoever recites only one of these, the same 
 Pius VII. conceded one hundred days of Indulgence, appli- 
 cable also in both cases to the faithful departed." (p. 49.) 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 391 
 
 Thus to induce the members of the Church of Rome, to 
 offer this singular prayer to this modern trinity of persons, 
 the Church has offered three hundred days of Indulgence 
 every time it is repeated ; and in case the votary is so dis- 
 posed, or does not need these Indulgences for himself, they 
 may be applied to the souls of his friends in purgatory, at 
 the rate of one hundred days Indulgence for each repetition 
 of each prayer ! 
 
 There is something strange and startling — indeed idola- 
 trous — in this prayer. It seems to call into existence a 
 new trinity of persons, Jesus, Joseph, and Mary, in the 
 bosom of the Romish Church, besides the ever-blessed 
 Trinity of Persons, Father, Son, and Spirit, in the Chris- 
 tian Church. It seems a dishonouring of Jesus by placing 
 him, in the act of prayer, on a level with Joseph and Mary. 
 It seems an act of idolatry, to be praying to Mary and 
 Joseph in the same form, the same words, and for the 
 same object, as we use in praying to Jesus. It seems to 
 place Jesus, Joseph and Mary on a perfect equality in that 
 most solemn and emphatic of all our acts of worship — 
 prayer. The same words are addressed to each ; the same 
 petitions are asked of each ; the same formal act of devo- 
 tion and worship is exhibited to each. These three are 
 thus placed on an equality, without the faintest intimation 
 in the form of the prayer, that they are unequal ; so that 
 as of the Apostolic Benediction, " The grace of our Lord 
 Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of 
 the Holy Ghost be with you all," it is held to be an argu- 
 ment for the equality of the Three Persons ; inasmuch as it 
 is a prayer offered alike to all, so it may in like manner be 
 argued that this prayer of the Church of Rome practically 
 
392 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 teaches her members the equality of Jesus, Joseph and 
 Mary ; and that thus, by worshipping these creatures equally 
 with their Creator, that Church is guilty of an overt act of 
 idolatry. 
 
 It may thus be seen, that the power of issuing Indul- 
 gences is not without its uses in the Church of Rome. And 
 that by annexing them to any favourite object she may be 
 anxious to accomplish, she finds many persons disposed 
 and anxious to assist her ; in the belief that thereby they 
 are largely diminishing the duration or intensity of their 
 siifFeriugs in purgatory. The hope of so great and benefi- 
 cial a return for the exertion made or the donation given, 
 goes far towards increasing the number of assistants, and 
 accomplishing the proposed object which the authorities of 
 the Church may have in contemplation. It may be the 
 huilding a church or the founding a convent — the estabUsh- 
 ing an hospital or supporting a school — the frequenting 
 some special altar or praying to some particular saint — 
 attending some foolish ceremony or joining in some sense- 
 less superstition — worshipping some favoured image or 
 praying to some miraculous picture — whatever it be, it is 
 easily, or at least more easily, accomplished by an issue of 
 InSulgences annexed to its performance. 
 
 Such is the modern system. In more ancient times. 
 Indulgences were ceded to those who, as pilgrims, visited 
 the holy sepulchre at Jerusalem — to those who, as cham- 
 pions of the cross, took arms and joined in the crusades 
 for the possession of the Holy Land — to those who pro- 
 moted the pious work of building St. Peter's at Rome, by 
 advancing money for that purpose — to those who took 
 up arms for the persecution of the Protestants and the 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 393 
 
 extirpation of heresy ; and in the end, though perhaps it 
 was only the abuse of the system, to all those who were 
 able and willing to purchase them. But tempora mutantur 
 et nos mutamur in illis : the systeln indeed is changed in 
 many respects, for the Indulgences issued of old to those 
 who took up arms for the extirpation of heretics, are now 
 issued to those who pray for their conversion. And the 
 Indulgences annexed to a pilgrimage to the holy sepulchre, 
 and the holy city of Jerusalem, are now annexed to a visit 
 to some holy altar in Rome ; and those once ceded to all 
 who took arms and marched to fight for the possession of 
 Calvary, are now granted to all who take the Rosary in 
 their hands, or march with lighted candles in procession to 
 some picture of the crucifixion. 
 
 Such is indeed the modern system. And Indulgences 
 are now issued in as vast abundance as ever, so that there 
 is scarcely a year without some large increase upon the 
 amount already oifered to the world. Indeed, it is part 
 arid parcel of some of the high ceremonies, to issue indul- 
 gences on these occasions. The present Pope, Gregory 
 XVI. (1845) has not been behind his predecessors in this 
 particular, and has issued the following extraordinary ordi- 
 nance : — see Raccolta, p. 319. 
 
 " A summary of Indulgences 
 
 " Conceded by our Holy Pope Gregory XVI. to the 
 faithful, who, retaining with them any of the crowns, rosa- 
 ries, crosses, crucifixes, images, or medals, blessed by him 
 or by those who have the faculty to do so, shall perform 
 the following works ; which grant is renewed by every 
 
394 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 supreme Pontiff on his election, publishing the same in 
 Latin and Italian. 
 
 " In the first place, all faithful Christians are advertised, 
 that in order to acquire the Indulgences with which the 
 holiness of our Lord, together with the blessing of the 
 apostles, has enriched the crowns, crosses, crucifixes, 
 medals, it is necessary that they carry or bear about their 
 persons some of the aforesaid crowns, crosses, crucifixes, 
 medals, &c." 
 
 This summary of Indulgences is of considerable length, 
 and it will sufficiently illustrate the system to extract a few. 
 
 " Whoever shall recite once a week, the crown of our 
 Lord, or that of the blessed Virgin, or the Rosary, or a 
 third part of it, or the divine office, or that of the blessed 
 Virgin, or of the dead, or the Penitential Psalms, &c., 
 and shall have been penitent and confessed and communi- 
 cated on any of the following days, viz., on the Nativity, 
 Epiphany, Easter, Ascension, &c., and shall have prayed 
 to God for the extirpation of heresy and schism, far the 
 increase of the Catholic faith, for the peace and concord 
 of Christian Princes, and for the other wants of the Holy' 
 Church — shall acquire on each of the fore-mentioned days, 
 a plenary Indulgence. 
 
 " Whoever shall do the same on the other feasts of our 
 Lord, and of the Virgin Majy, or any of these days, shall 
 acquire an indulgence of seven years and two hundred and 
 eighty days. Or doing the same on any Sunday or feast 
 of the year, shall gain, every time, an indulgence of five 
 years and two hundred days ; and doing the same on any 
 other day shall gain an indulgence of one hundred days. 
 
 " Whoever shall make any sort of prayer preparatory to 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 395 
 
 the celebration of the mass or before communion, or shall 
 recite some divine office, or that of the blessed Virgin Mary, 
 shall acquire for every time an indulgence of fifty days. 
 
 " Whoever on Fridays shall devoutly meditate on the 
 passion and death of the Divine Redeemer, and shall say 
 three Pater Nosters, and three Ave Marias, shall gain an 
 indulgence of one hundred days. 
 
 " Whoever shall pray devoutly for the faithful vpho are 
 in transit (i. e. in the moment of death) and shall say for 
 the same one Pater Noster and one Ave Maria, shall obtain 
 an indulgence of fifty days." 
 
 There are many other indulgences of a very similar na- 
 ture, all contained in this summary or series of indulgences 
 issued by the present Pope Gregory XVI. 
 
 As this issue of indulgences has taken place under the 
 present Pope Gregory XVI., and as the above document is 
 transcribed from the account of indulgences authorized to 
 be published by "the Sacred Congregation of Indulgences," 
 and bearing the signature of the Cardinal Prefect of the 
 congregation in the year 1 843, it may serve as an illustra- 
 tion of the modern system. 
 
 I had always felt a great curiosity on the subject of in- 
 dulgences. I had often wished to see with mine own eyes, 
 and to hear with my own ears the form in which they were 
 dispensed and published, and while I was at Rome I anxi- 
 ously watched for the opportunity. On Holy Thursday, 
 the Pope gives the benediction from the balcony in front of 
 St Peter's. And just before he utters it, an Indulgence 
 is granted to all the assembled multitude, and two copies 
 are flung from the balcony among the people, such being 
 the formal mode of publication. The distance however at 
 
396 MORNINGS AMONG 
 
 which all this is done deprived it of much of its interest 
 for me, and I was glad therefore to have seen it more ac- 
 curately in the Sistine chapel, where after the sermon and 
 in the midst of the services, an indulgence was published 
 by the Pope's command and in the Pope's, presence. He 
 was seated on his throne. A Cardinal stood on either hand. 
 Above thirty Cardinals were seated in their place. Arch- 
 bishops and Bishops without number stood in the presence. 
 The Cardinal Priest and his assistant priest were seated on 
 the steps of the altar. The monk had concluded his ser- 
 mon, and had seated himself, when he again arose, and, 
 fronting the Pope, read by command the rescript of Indul- 
 gence to all present. He resumed his seat, and the services 
 proceeded to their conclu'sion. I have since then been 
 present on several similar occasions, when all curiosity on 
 the subject was most amply satisfied. 
 
 It seems strange that amidst all the light of this nine- 
 teenth century — an age in which knowledge runs to and 
 fro through the earth, the pretence to this power of issuing 
 Indulgences should still be made. There seems something 
 so irreconcileable to common sense and the principles of 
 Holy Scripture in the doctrine, that the Pope, or any other 
 bishop or priest, can diminish the duration of the soul's 
 sufferings in the other world * — that he can apply to one 
 
 * Mr.\ Whiteside, in his Italy in Hie Nineteenth Century, gives the fol- 
 lowing very curious details x^- 
 
 ' The number of ecclesiastics of all sorts ( some 10,000 or 12,000) in 
 Naples, naturally attracts attention, and we inquired of the Neapolitan 
 advocate in what the utility of such an army of priests consisted ? He 
 quietly replied, " For the business to be done, we have not priests 
 enough." " How can that be ? " "I will explain," said he briefly : 
 *' if all the ecclesiastics in Naples were engaged from morning to night, 
 they could not say even half the masses for the dead which they ought 
 
THE JESUITS AT ROME. 397 
 
 man the merits of other men, so as to supply his deficien- 
 cies and entitle him to claim exemption from the fires of 
 purgatory for a specified period, and so find admission to 
 heaven earlier or later according to the numher of days or 
 years the Pope may be pleased to specify in the Indulgence 
 — there is something so opposed to common sense and all 
 
 and are bound to say.'' This statement surprised us exceedingly. The 
 advocate resumed ; " The population of Naples is immense, and there is 
 hardly a family the members of which have not for a long course of years 
 bequeathed sums of money to ensure the saying of masses for the repose 
 of their souls. In process of time the number of masses to be said in one 
 year has accumulated to such an amount, that now 10,000 priests could 
 not say them. A principal source of revenue to the priesthood is derived 
 from legacies often charged on land bequeathed for these purposes. These 
 charges are recognized and enforced by our tribunals, and it will some- 
 times happen that in two or three generations the greater part of the rents 
 of a moderate property will be appropriated to the payment of the priests 
 for saying the appointed masses for the dead. This actually occurred in 
 my own case : the rents of my small paternal property were so appro- 
 priated. But the Pope will never permit the priesthood to abstract more 
 than one-half the annual rental, or one-third ; and if the successive gifts 
 for masses for the dead by successive owners of a patrimony swallow up 
 the proportion mentioned of the rents, there is a mode of proceeding which 
 I myself adopted to obtain redress. A memorial is prepared to the Pope 
 containing a statement of the property, claims upon it for masses, and 
 residue applicable to the support of the family. If his holiness thinks the 
 residue too limited he' increases it, fixes the sum for the priests, and remits 
 his judgment to Naples, where it is received in the law courts, and has 
 the effect of reducing the amount of the charge on the land. 
 
 ' " With respect to the masses for the dead, said and unsaid, a tabular , 
 statement is also submitted to the Pope each year ; and he, taking into 
 consideration all the circumstances, pronounces hi's decision that the 
 masses remaining unsaid, slmll be considered as said^ and so they are ac- 
 cordingly. This short cut is equally effective, and the priest is paid for 
 the service he could not physically perform, which is not unreasonable." 
 While the advocate gave this explanation, I thought I remarked a scep- 
 tical smile playing around his face, but he expressed no disbelief whatever 
 in the dactrine.'— Vol. iii.'104— 106. 
 
398 MORNINGS AMONG THE JESUITS. 
 
 Scripture in this, that men may well marvel that such 
 notions should be entertained, amidst the flood of light and 
 knowledge that now pours through the world. Yet so it 
 unhappily is, and the Christian, who might well laugh at 
 such folly, is only left to weep over its wickedness, and to 
 wonder more and more at the mysteries of Providence 
 among which he lives. 
 
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 A PILGRIMAGE TO ROME. 
 
 By the Rev. M. HOBART SEYMOUR, M.A. 
 In post octavo, with Engravings, price 8s. 6(f. cloth. 
 
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